The Novel and Manga of Haruhi Suzumiya [Archive] - Page 8

quigonkenny

2009-03-26, 01:18

That's pretty much the deal, she's just Tsuruya.

There are hints that she's possibly related to the Agency via funding and alot of actions she takes makes you wonder if she actually knows what's going on or is just completely oblivious and being Tsuruya. One of those characters you're not quite sure how involved they are.

Agreed. Tsuruya is like Kyon. She has to be a normal human, as a) she only has a single name/nickname, and b) it would be depressing should we find out at the end that her unquestionable awesomeness was the result of some inherent mystical ability. In short, she's so badass simply because while she isn't exactly normal, she is so obviously human.

Itsuki in Volume 7 states that her family is one of "many supporters" of The Agency, and that the Tsuruya family "do[es]n't care at all" about what they do, but considering her casual acknowledgement in Snow Mountain Syndrome and Volume 7 that she's noticed that the SOS-Dan members are more than they appear, she might know a little more than she should. Personally I think, especially after the movie was made, that she probably has a rough grasp on each of the SOS-Dan's junior members' natures, and knows that something is up with Haruhi.

She's easily my favorite character in the series (yes, even over Yuki), but I've always had a soft spot for quirky female side characters. If they made a show with just Tsuruya-san, Hayakawa (from Kemeko DX), Maria (from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei), and Isumi (from Hayate the Combat Butler), I'd watch it all day long and be happier than a pig in s**t.

wittyusername

2009-03-26, 18:04

If they made a show with just Tsuruya-san, Hayakawa (from Kemeko DX), Maria (from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei), and Isumi (from Hayate the Combat Butler), I'd watch it all day long and be happier than a pig in s**t.

That show would be either amazing or seizure-inducing. Also, "happier than a pig in shit" is quite possibly the best expression ever.

Sute443

2009-03-27, 01:55

"I hate temporal mechanics." :heh:

I love temporal mechanics. So long as they're treated with respect and logic, that is. They really make sense once you start thinking about time as a spacial dimension.

"Anyone who gets a headache when thinking about temporal paradoxes hasn't spent enough time thinking about them" - reversal of a line I once read in a fanfic

wittyusername

2009-03-29, 09:48

Solachinx

2009-03-29, 12:27

^Which version is it?

wittyusername

2009-03-29, 12:34

I'm not sure what you mean by version...there are a lot of things I can think of right now that would qualify as a different version. =_= It was the hardcover, if that's what you meant.

Solachinx

2009-03-29, 14:55

Yes, I meant "Which cover version is it?"

Is there any differences between the two cover versions that you know of?

Hedd

2009-03-29, 15:06

wittyusername

2009-03-29, 16:27

I thought the translation was done well, too. I just thought that it was a bit weird for Kyon to say something like that.

At least I'm not being as nitpicky as the people saying that putting in a preview of the manga "ruined the integrity of the book." The reviews of the book on book store websites that I looked at tended to be pathetic like that.

bayoab

2009-03-29, 17:19

Is there any differences between the two cover versions that you know of?
I don't have the hardcover copy in my hands yet, but Yen Press said they would be identical text wise. The only difference is in the cover images. (The hardcover is for those who must have the original image while the paperback is meant to be for those who are new/don't care and rather pay less.)

And yes, they are translating the next volumes.

wittyusername

2009-03-29, 19:30

(The hardcover is for those who must have the original image while the paperback is meant to be for those who are new/don't care and rather pay less.)

In my case, it was more like "The hardcover is for those who ordered the paperback when a sullen, teenage dipshit employee couldn't tell the difference between the words 'hardcover' and 'paperback' (which were clearly written on the image of the book)." Thanks, impaired employee! Hopefully next time you have a senior moment, you get fired!

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-29, 23:26

Found the book in a Chapters down south of where I live. Predictably, it was in the same section as the Stephanie Meyer books (TEENS: "GOT ANGST?")

God I hate Chapters now.

Guernsey

2009-03-30, 00:37

I walways got the impression that Haruhi does take itself too seriously for angst but nevertheless I don't why it has been paired with that teenager stuff.

quigonkenny

2009-03-30, 01:27

This is sort of off topic from the discussion going on at the moment here, but I got my copy of the book yesterday, and after reading it I noticed that Kyon says "Geez Louise" near the bottom of page 23.

Geez Louise.

Of course, right after that he asks if people even say that anymore, but still.

Hmm... In the B-T translation they just have that as "Sigh." I'm wondering if that was an instance of the almighty "yare yare" that Sugita made so integral to his portrayal in the original Japanese.

Still, I was kind of expecting "good grief", so I guess "Geez Louise" isn't so bad (especially with decidedly Kyonish aside)? ^_^

...

Oh God, brain fart...

Kyon = Charlie Brown
Haruhi = Lucy
Itsuki = Linus
Mikuru = Little Red-haired Girl
Yuki = Marcie
Imouto-chan = Sally
Tsuruya-san = Churuya-san (nyoro~n)

Quick, people! Get me a YouTube representing this, stat!

bayoab

2009-03-30, 02:36

Found the book in a Chapters down south of where I live. Predictably, it was in the same section as the Stephanie Meyer books (TEENS: "GOT ANGST?")

God I hate Chapters now.
The book is supposed to be in the teen section.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-03-30, 03:24

Itsuki = Linus

. . . I would now love to see Koizumi holding a blanket to the side of his face :heh:

wittyusername

2009-03-30, 13:56

Oh God, brain fart...

Kyon = Charlie Brown
Haruhi = Lucy
Itsuki = Linus
Mikuru = Little Red-haired Girl
Yuki = Marcie
Imouto-chan = Sally
Tsuruya-san = Churuya-san (nyoro~n)

Quick, people! Get me a YouTube representing this, stat!

Those are disturbingly accurate. Now I really want to see Haruhi pull a football away from Kyon's foot...

Found the book in a Chapters down south of where I live. Predictably, it was in the same section as the Stephanie Meyer books (TEENS: "GOT ANGST?")

Haruhi....next to Stephenie Meyer books?

Next to Twilight?

I think I have to go set fire to the Chapters in my mall, RIGHT NOW.

Guernsey

2009-03-30, 14:50

Those are disturbingly accurate. Now I really want to see Haruhi pull a football away from Kyon's foot...

I would like to see that too as well as infamous Christmas dance.

Haruhi....next to Stephenie Meyer books?

Next to Twilight?

Hmmmm, I don't know if I could condone this....:confused:

Solachinx

2009-03-30, 14:54

^ Well, Little, Brown does publish both of them. Maybe the employees were trying to be cute... It was like that at my local BAM, as well. But, I didn't buy it because they had no hardcopies (I destroy paperbacks easily)

Also, while I was at BAM, I got the second volume of TMoHS Manga. It was pretty good, and, surprisingly, Yen Press had the balls to keep the word "shit" in, unlike OTHER unnamed distributers *coughcough*Viz*coughcough*.

dragon4dudes

2009-03-30, 19:55

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-30, 20:29

The book is supposed to be in the teen section.

No it isn't. It's supposed to be in the same section as the manga, where people who are looking for it will actually find it.

Kyon = Charlie Brown
Haruhi = Lucy
Itsuki = Linus
Mikuru = Little Red-haired Girl
Yuki = Marcie
Imouto-chan = Sally
Tsuruya-san = Churuya-san (nyoro~n)

Wouldn't Tsuruya be Peppermint Patty?

And yes, this IS the best idea ever. Someone do it right now.

Also, while I was at BAM, I got the second volume of TMoHS Manga. It was pretty good, and, surprisingly, Yen Press had the balls to keep the word "shit" in, unlike OTHER unnamed distributers *coughcough*Viz*coughcough*.

Can't -fucking- find the manga anywhere, which is depressing.

lol, that is such awesomeness. And theres a Little Red-haired Girl in Peanuts?

Yeah, the one whose pants Charlie Brown always wants to get into.

She's NEVER on-panel though. EVER.

Maybe a different character would be better... Violet? She's about as useless and unimportant as Mikuru is...

wittyusername

2009-03-30, 21:05

Can't -fucking- find the manga anywhere, which is depressing.

I'm guessing that you live reasonably close to a Chapters because you said you bought the novel there, so you could always order the manga from the Chapters website and have it delivered to the store or something. I think they do shipping directly to houses, too, but from what I remember, shipping to the store is free. Free is, in general, better.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-30, 21:13

I'm guessing that you live reasonably close to a Chapters because you said you bought the novel there, so you could always order the manga from the Chapters website and have it delivered to the store or something. I think they do shipping directly to houses, too, but from what I remember, shipping to the store is free. Free is, in general, better.

Hour south of where I live, unfortunately. Can't go there too often.

bayoab

2009-03-30, 21:48

No it isn't. It's supposed to be in the same section as the manga, where people who are looking for it will actually find it.
Little Brown/Yen Press is labeling it as a teen book and selling it to book stores as such. This is not the store's decision and thus it should not be in the regular manga section. They are intending to sell it to the masses as a regular book.

Side note: B&N actually has a "Teen Graphic novels" section next to the regular teen section. This is where B&N put the paperbacks. I didn't see any hardcover copies.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-30, 21:52

Little Brown/Yen Press is labeling it as a teen book and selling it to book stores as such.

Which is exactly my point. They shouldn't be marketing it like that.

I could quote myself several dozen times saying this.

Side note: B&N actually has a "Teen Graphic novels" section.

So does Chapters, though it might as well be the "Naruto Section".

Solachinx

2009-03-31, 06:43

Little Brown/Yen Press is labeling it as a teen book and selling it to book stores as such. This is not the store's decision and thus it should not be in the regular manga section. They are intending to sell it to the masses as a regular book.

Side note: B&N actually has a "Teen Graphic novels" section next to the regular teen section. This is where B&N put the paperbacks. I didn't see any hardcover copies.

According to BAM, the HC comes out after the PB version. I'm guessing this is true for B&N, Borders, Chapters etc.

darkchibi07

2009-03-31, 08:41

Which is exactly my point. They shouldn't be marketing it like that.

Considering how sales from light novels from other publishers were horrid, this marketing approach might be the one that could give some hope for the light novel industry to ever survive here.

moose25

2009-03-31, 12:59

Which is exactly my point. They shouldn't be marketing it like that.

Why shouldn't they? If they count entirely on the fans to by the books then we won't see anymore.

Rice_slayer

2009-03-31, 20:54

Got my copy, store had only 3 left! No news inside on next issue, but has a preview of the vol. 1 manga for those who haven't boughten it. FYI, I got it at chapters and it was in the Teen fiction section, Twilight was actually directly above it :P.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-31, 21:14

Why shouldn't they? If they count entirely on the fans to by the books then we won't see anymore.

Because people who aren't fans are going to buy the book. Right.

dragon4dudes

2009-03-31, 21:58

I can almost understand the reason for it being labeled as teen. it is rather suggestive... though versus putting it in the anime/manga/graphic novel section, idk. Maybe they, the bookstores, thought it would be better labeled as a novel rather than a comic, which technically is true. if it was put in the graphic novel/manga section of the bookstore, would new people really buy it? I mean most buyers (huge generalization) go to that section to buy comics/manga or whatever else is there. So would newcomers randomly browsing be more likely to buy it in a set were the typical novels would be found or a graphic novel section where the books surrounding it are, well, graphic novels?

Rice_slayer

2009-03-31, 22:14

I was looking in the Manga section for it, found alot of Narutard stuff, but no Haruhi. Went to teen section and found it instantly :P.

Ithekro

2009-03-31, 22:23

Only way to ensure revunue generation, get more fans by getting new fans. Thus instead of just pander to the existing fanbase, you make it seem less exclusive (and/or less in a section that might class you as a type rather than an age group), and put it where anyone might find it. It is actually a fairly good story even without pictures...so it might apeal to those that hate comics or manga as a "nerd thing".

Solachinx

2009-03-31, 22:29

On a related subject, do you know how sales of Death Note: The Los Angeles BB Murder Cases sold? Despite the fact that Death Note is a popular series, like how Haruhi Suzumiya is, from what I heard, the sales of the book were not that high because:

A) It was targetted only towards the fans, thus limiting its growth potential

B) It was placed in the manga section, with no advertisment whatsoever, thus hindering growth even further

Now, let's look at Melancholy:

A) It's being targetted mainly towards teens in general (from what I heard, it sounds like they dropped the tween girl demographic), a much larger demographic than the original fans, thus promoting growth

B) It's being placed in the teen section, a much more active site than any manga section I've been in, in any store. This increases the chances of random passerbyers' attentions, along with the advertisment I have seen in my local bookstores, and, thus, promotes growth.

If Little, Brown wasn't doing this, sales would be much poorer compared to other series they're producing *looks at Twilight*, production would halt, the title would be dropped, and we would likely not see past Sigh getting published, and that's if Little, Brown is feeling generous.

This mainstreaming is for the best, and, frankly, I think Haruhi is in pretty good hands.

~ Solachinx

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-31, 22:30

So would newcomers randomly browsing be more likely to buy it in a set were the typical novels would be found or a graphic novel section where the books surrounding it are, well, graphic novels?

I've found Death Note: Another Note in the manga section, as well as the Shana novels.

They're trying to expand the base, clearly.

Only way to ensure revunue generation, get more fans by getting new fans. Thus instead of just pander to the existing fanbase, you make it seem less exclusive (and/or less in a section that might class you as a type rather than an age group), and put it where anyone might find it. It is actually a fairly good story even without pictures...so it might apeal to those that hate comics or manga as a "nerd thing".

People are going to be so confused if they pick it up randomly... the thing is, it's a light novel, from Japan, and should be placed in the manga section.

You're not going to get people to change their interests on a whim.

Even though the cover makes it look like a western book, inside... it's a light novel. With a manga preview at the end.

It's a nerd thing. :heh:

This mainstreaming is for the best, and, frankly, I think Haruhi is in pretty good hands.

I think the mainstreaming is just selling a lie, but that's my opinion.

We'll see how Haruhi does, but I'm just saying that you can't hide what it is behind some ugly red book cover.

Roger Rambo

2009-03-31, 22:51

I've found Death Note: Another Note in the manga section, as well as the Shana novels.

They're trying to expand the base, clearly.

Here's the real question. How well are they selling? If they don't sell well enough the companies are likely to try a different marketing strategy. The idea behind Brown books seems to have been made under this logic...

1.Serious fans of the book series will buy it wherever we put it.
2.Casual goers to the comic section don't seem to buy light novels that much.
Postulate:Casual goers of the comics section want comics, not novella.
3.Casual goers to the young adult book section might be more likely to buy it than casual goers to the comic section.

The logic might not be valid, but it's understandable why they would try something different.

People are going to be so confused if they pick it up randomly... the thing is, it's a light novel, from Japan, and should be placed in the manga section.

You're not going to get people to change their interests on a whim.

Again, Brown Books seems to be taking a go for broke strategy. If the light novels aren't selling in the comics section, try selling them somewhere else.

This might tie into them taking a slightly less otaku oriented translation.

Even though the cover makes it look like a western book, inside... it's a light novel. With a manga preview at the end.
Wouldn't the chapter illustrations paint a clear picture what this was?

I think the mainstreaming is just selling a lie, but that's my opinion.
I'm prepared to be a bit more open minded about it. My impression is that nothing about the story has fundamentally been changed, given how all the nit picks I've read about have been minor.

We'll see how Haruhi does, but I'm just saying that you can't hide what it is behind some ugly red book cover.I didn't think the cover was that bad looking. (http://www.kirkbenshoff.com/img/projects/haruhi.jpg)

Ithekro

2009-03-31, 23:02

We shall see. If it works out well the cult of Haruhiism will spread farther into English speaking countries. It would be something is it gets to the point where enough people put it down as a religion in the United Kingdom (much as they did for the Jediism).

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-31, 23:05

I'm prepared to be a bit more open minded about it. My impression is that nothing about the story has fundamentally been changed, given how all the nit picks I've read about have been minor.
I didn't think the cover was that bad looking. (http://www.kirkbenshoff.com/img/projects/haruhi.jpg)

I think the cover is hideous, but that's my taste.

Ithekro

2009-03-31, 23:11

The red is too bright for me, but other than that is looks like a fairly normal teen book or some mystery novel.

Now to see how many convert.....

Guernsey

2009-03-31, 23:18

It doesn't have Ito's art on the cover but seriously looks something that I find in the kids section.

Roger Rambo

2009-03-31, 23:18

I understand that's your opinion. But lets look at this from a marketing perspective.

Fans
-These are the people who are already aware of the franchise and like it. They actively pay attention to new products. These people don't need to be heavily courted to buy the product. They'll do it on their own initiative.

Comics Browsers
-The casual frequenters of the comics section. This group does not appear to be very interested in light novels. Sales reflect this. It makes certain kind of sense, considering that people extensively browsing the comics section are probably looking for comics, not novella.

Teens Browsers
-This is the group that Brown Books seems to be trying to get onboard. If the light novels are receptively out of place in the comics section, then perhaps they might have a higher chance of acceptance if marketed more as conventional books in the teens section. Even if the percentage of Teens browsers that's willing to accept the series is smaller than the percentage of the comic browsers, the Teens browsers represents a much larger market.

Brown Books can either court a market that has already shown a lack of interest in this kind of product, or they can take a risk and cast their net in a new pond.

It doesn't have Ito's art on the cover but seriously looks something that I find in the kids section.
I think the idea is for the cover art to be different enough to be noticed over the other content of the teens section, while not appearing so a conventional that nobody even bothers picking it up.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-31, 23:29

Brown Books can either court a market that has already shown a lack of interest in this kind of product, or they can take a risk and cast their net in a new pond.

Oh, I understand their logic. I just think it's unfair to the novel. :heh:

I think the idea is for the cover art to be different enough to be noticed over the other content of the teens section, while not appearing so a conventional that nobody even bothers picking it up.

It reminds me unpleasantly of The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, which was the most painful-to-read book I have ever read, ever.

Solachinx

2009-03-31, 23:30

!) In reality, it's more of a blood-red color, and it's not as vivid

2) The hardcover with Ito's art on it is coming, it's just released later than the paperback version

3) From what I've heard, other than some slight localizations, it's actually a decent translation

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-31, 23:40

3) From what I've heard, other than some slight localizations, it's actually a decent translation

Isn't my problem at all.

I just don't think it will sell any better by putting it in the Got Angst section, but I've been wrong before. Many times.

Roger Rambo

2009-03-31, 23:42

Well lets hope it does well. The better one part of the franchise does well, the morel likely other parts are to be localized.

It will also be reflected in the motivation for the creators to make more content.

Rice_slayer

2009-03-31, 23:47

Lol the plain cover is best for some Otakus who don't want everyone knowing they are otakus :P.

quigonkenny

2009-04-01, 01:06

Wondering why this is an argument. As much as the thought of Haruhi being associated with the unimaginative dreck that is the Twilight series gives me the willies, putting it in the teen section makes good business sense. Let's look at the options:

1) The manga section: As noted above, people heading to the "books with pictures and a few words" section aren't looking for "books with a lot of words and a few pictures". Besides, would you rather Haruhi be associated with Narutards, or Twilight losers? (Yes, it is a trick question.) The only reason to put it there is so the Haruhi anime fans (who likely also read Haruhi manga) won't have to walk to a different part of the store to get the Haruhi novel. I shouldn't have to explain to you why that would be a bad business idea.

So I won't. ^_^

2) The sci-fi/fantasy section: While this would technically be a fitting genre, it's not evident from first blush to a new Haruhi reader. I've been to a few sci-fi/fantasy sections in my days, and if it isn't spaceshippy sci-fi or dragonny fantasy or Dresdenny fantasy horror, it's not going to go there. In other words, there's not a lot of variation, and a book with a cute Japanese schoolgirl on the cover isn't going to pick up any new fans in that section unless there's a giant werewolf sneaking up behind her in full "disembowel mode".

3) The generic fiction section: I can think of exactly one school setting series in the last ten or twenty years that has broken from its niche status into the general population, and unless I've missed something, neither Haruhi or Kyon has a lightning-bolt shaped scar on their forehead. Besides, do we really want that kind of worldwide popularity to go to Tanigawa-sensei's head to the point that after the 700-page final novel is released and the movie adaptations are well underway (complete with a 27-year-old Kyon actor by the second or third), he decides to start releasing superfluous "secrets" of the series (with barely hidden anti-fanfic motives), like that Okabe-sensei is gay (but Itsuki isn't), etc.?

4) Teen section: Teens read books about teens. Not many other people do. Yes, teens read a lot of crap and think it's good. That's why we need to give them something good, even if it's packaged like the normal crap (http://www.kirkbenshoff.com/img/projects/haruhi.jpg). Besides you're missing the secret reason why Little, Brown is putting Haruhi in the teen section.

Think. What is the core audience of Haruhi fans? Antisocial young nerdy males who like anime, games, and "lolis" (2D only, of course, wink-wink), and will likely never EVER get laid. (Well, at least not in real life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eroge)...)

Think. What is the core audience of Twilight fans? Antisocial young (possibly "loli", wink-wink) goth females with low self-esteem who like dark poetry and will likely never EVER get laid. (Well, at least not with a man...)

Little, Brown has gone beyond trying to firm up its fanbase, and is trying to ensure the futures of the gene pools of both fanbases by setting up a situation whereby chance meetings between the two may occur in the teen section (within the strictures of local laws, of course, wink-wink). They're doing God's work, man... God's work... ^_^

[-snip-]

Comics Browsers
-The casual frequenters of the comics section. This group does not appear to be very interested in light novels. Sales reflect this. It makes certain kind of sense, considering that people extensively browsing the comics section are probably looking for comics, not novella.

[-snip-]

Actually a "novella" (singular) is a short novel (much like TMoHS and other "light" novels). The plural of "novel" is "novels".

Sorry, I turned off my nitpick meter before reading the official translation last week and forgot to turn it back on until today. Got a little backed up.

bayoab

2009-04-01, 01:23

According to BAM, the HC comes out after the PB version. I'm guessing this is true for B&N, Borders, Chapters etc.
They are both supposed to be released on April 1st according to multiple sources.

Also, it would make sense if they stick the paperback in the teen section and the hardcover in the manga section since that is their intended marketing. I'll probably stop by a higher traffic B&N tomorrow and take a look. (Yen Press/Little, Brown makes the decision of where the book goes.)

Got my copy, store had only 3 left! No news inside on next issue, but has a preview of the vol. 1 manga for those who haven't boughten it. FYI, I got it at chapters and it was in the Teen fiction section, Twilight was actually directly above it :P.
IIRC, Yen Press mentioned how often the books would come out but not a date for the second volume. It is going to be a while though. (I believe we are going to get 3 of them per year).

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-04-01, 03:46

it's a light novel, from Japan, and should be placed in the manga section.

By this logic, shouldn't electronics stores mix anime DVDs with Japanese video games? :heh:

Guernsey

2009-04-01, 09:49

Well, I am not sure about that especially whenever you have franchises like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest to worry about. Also, I hope Haruhi doesn't possess its own share of tards who only but the manga and anime and all of sudden believe that they know all about Japan just because they see it on television and manga.

Solachinx

2009-04-01, 11:31

^ Those apply to almost every anime series

Solachinx

2009-04-01, 12:18

spawnofthejudge

2009-04-01, 12:27

So, I was on chapters.indigo.ca, looking to see if I could find out if Yen Press liscenced any more manga, when I saw a tab called “The Sigh of Haruhi Suzumiya" by Nagaru Tanigawa, published by Little, Brown, to be released on October 1, 2009. I also saw this on amazon UK, so it might be legit.

I can't post a link now because I'm on a computer that can't copy or paste, so go to chapters.indigo.ca, type "Haruhi Suzumiya" in the search box and it should be the 6th item, or right under "TMoHS Manga Vol. 3". I promise, this is not an April Fools.

I saw what you saw. I did a little digging around at Amazon US and found a listing for "Sigh" (http://www.amazon.com/Sigh-Haruhi-Suzumiya-Bk/dp/0316038814/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238606470&sr=1-11) which has the release set for Sept. '09, though it's a bare-bones listing. Also lists it as "The Sigh of Haruhi Suzumiya Bk 1" (:eyespin:). Little, Brown (http://www.littlebrown.co.uk/home) has yet to list Sigh, however, so I'm merely wringing my hands over here.

Solachinx

2009-04-01, 12:42

I saw what you saw. I did a little digging around at Amazon US and found a listing for "Sigh" (http://www.amazon.com/Sigh-Haruhi-Suzumiya-Bk/dp/0316038814/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238606470&sr=1-11) which has the release set for Sept. '09, though it's a bare-bones listing. Also lists it as "The Sigh of Haruhi Suzumiya Bk 1" (:eyespin:). Little, Brown (http://www.littlebrown.co.uk/home) has yet to list Sigh, however, so I'm merely wringing my hands over here.

I think the amazon people think it's a new series.

M.Marangio

2009-04-01, 13:25

Little, Brown has yet to list Sigh, however, so I'm merely wringing my hands over here.
The US site lists the paperback edition of the second novel with a release date of Octobre 1, 2009 (ISBN 9780316038799 / 0316038792). Amazon.com lists the hard cover edition (ISBN 9780316038812 / 0316038814).

Link: http://www.hachettebookgroup.com/teens_books_9780316038799.htm

The third and fourth volume of the manga will be released on June and Octobre 2009.

I also found this page with a preview of the first manga volume and of the first novel as well as some wallpapers:

http://www.hachettebookgroup.com/features/haruhi/index.html

(o^^)-o*(x_x)*

2009-04-01, 14:58

Lol the plain cover is best for some Otakus who don't want everyone knowing they are otakus :P.

Or people who don't like Hardcover books. I find trying to read a hardcover book to be a huge chore, especially when I'm on the train to work. I could care less what people thinks of me from what I'm reading.

Rice_slayer

2009-04-01, 16:38

Driving what I drive(done-up muscle car), My anime-addiction doesn't match me well :P. My friends all joke about it but I don't really care.

Solachinx

2009-04-01, 17:17

I just remembered that today (or was it yesterday) is the two-year aniversery of "Dissociation". Only one more year until pointless symbolism ^_^.

Solachinx

2009-04-05, 18:12

I have the hardcopy with me, and it's pretty good. I like the translation, the color pictures, and my big-ass picture of Haruhi on the cover. Maybe I'll put a review on here later.

Rice_slayer

2009-04-05, 20:02

^nice! I am taking my time, while, I have been really busing with prep I had for an automotive comp. but now that I finished that, I have been reading the book a lot. So far so good up to chapter 3, only thing that has pissed me off is the "big brother" thing instead of onii-chan that I have gotten used to. Minor thing, but the rest is really good, more "refined" than the BT translation. Solid 9/10 so far.

Tunafishisgood

2009-04-05, 20:18

Here is just something from the novel.
Data Integration Thought Entity = Data Overmind(from the english novel)

I couldn't get used to this the whole time I was reading it.

Its got me thinking about this. (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/e/e2/Overmind_SC1_Game1.jpg/180px-Overmind_SC1_Game1.jpg)

Ithekro

2009-04-05, 20:31

If that were the case, I like their new female teen model humanoid zerglings.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-05, 20:36

spawnofthejudge

2009-04-05, 21:43

If that were the case, I like their new female teen model humanoid zerglings.

If Nagato is a zergling, I don't want to meet the new Ultralisk model.

besieger

2009-04-05, 22:48

If that were the case, I like their new female teen model humanoid zerglings.

If Nagato is a zergling, I don't want to meet the new Ultralisk model.

KEKEKE!

Though I think Yuki would be a queen. D=

There must be lesser terminals than Yuki, as pointed out by her no less, Asakura is one.

DJ_RockmanX

2009-04-05, 23:01

Asakura's obviously a Hunter Killer. Blades for close combat and spikes thrown from mid range fit the Hydralisk mold well.

Yuki's a caster type, but I'd peg her as a Defiler rather than a Queen, mostly because I equate the barrier she used to defend herself and Kyon in Melancholy IV with Dark Swarm. We could also call her erasing of Asakura as Consume if we say that Yuki absorbed her data and reused it in Disappearance, though a bit of a stretch. All we need now is an equivalent for Plague.

Tunafishisgood

2009-04-05, 23:57

I thought Yuki was more of a Kerrigan. She can do anythin.

DJ_RockmanX

2009-04-06, 00:08

So she's gonna overthrow the Data Overmind and take control of the Swarm for her own enjoyment, becoming Queen Bitch of the Universe?

I don't think she's that high up on the food chain. :p

Perhaps instead we should be comparing Interfaces to Cerebrates. Interfaces are created to collect data and relay it back to their superiors. Certain Cerebrates are sent forth with the sole purpose of evolving the Swarm, collecting the genetic information of species deemed important to the pursuit of "purity of essence." We could equate that to the Data Entity's pursuit of auto-evolution, which seems to be the final rung of the evolutionary ladder.

Any takers? If nothing we can go back to Yuki and her uber micro.

panzerfan

2009-04-06, 00:20

She won't be able to do any of that unless if Haruhi has decided to act as the Arcturus.

Moving back to reality, it's been a long time since us translators at Baka-Tsuki had done anything on Haruhi given how that the novels came to a standstill by volume 9. I am very surprised actually at how long it has taken for the novels to finally be officially released in the states, and what's more shocking, in this rather terrible economic quagmire. I hope that Little, Brown will actually be able to garner sufficient fundings and get it out and actually turn a profit.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-04-06, 00:26

So she's gonna overthrow the Data Overmind and take control of the Swarm for her own enjoyment, becoming Queen Bitch of the Universe?

... I should hit you for that... :heh:

Ithekro

2009-04-06, 00:37

Depends...how would you classify Kimidori?

Hopefully they'll allow for the next novel to be released within the year so you're Haruhi translating skills won't get stale.

DJ_RockmanX

2009-04-06, 00:43

She won't be able to do any of that unless if Haruhi has decided to act as the Arcturus.

The spot for Arcturus belongs to Itsuki. I'm certain he'd deliver a fine inauguration speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lKqhYXB5ts).

... I should hit you for that... :heh:

Sure you will.

Depends...how would you classify Kimidori?

What has she done again? It's hard to determine anything with what little of her we've been shown so far.

quigonkenny

2009-04-06, 00:55

Hopefully they'll allow for the next novel to be released within the year so you're Haruhi translating skills won't get stale.

Back on topic...ahem...

From what I've seen on the publisher's site, "The Sigh (singular) of Haruhi Suzumiya" (original Kadokawa translation ftw!) will be released October 1st (or if the pattern holds, late September on Amazon). I imagine the later volumes will follow a similar release schedule (Boredom and "Vanishment" next year, etc.).

Maybe Tanigawa will be done with #10 by 2013 so we don't have to wait overlong between the English adaptations of #9 and #10... ^_^

bayoab

2009-04-06, 02:23

I am very surprised actually at how long it has taken for the novels to finally be officially released in the states, and what's more shocking, in this rather terrible economic quagmire. I hope that Little, Brown will actually be able to garner sufficient fundings and get it out and actually turn a profit.
I wouldn't be worried about Little, Brown as a company. They are a subsidiary of the Hatchette Book Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachette_Book_Group) which is one of the largest publishers in the world. The only question is if it will sell well enough for the money they are putting into Haruhi.

typhonsentra

2009-04-07, 09:36

Sute443

2009-04-07, 10:59

Finally found this book after a week of searching. They had it at the bottom row of "Teen Manga" way in the back of my Barnes and Noble, paperback only. Yeah.... after all the hype about the distribution of this book I'm pretty surprised and disappointed. I've been looking through several book stores for this too around the Tampa area.

So that makes at least two B&Ns that only had it in paperback. Does yours have computers that can tell you where a book is in the store? I'm curious because the ones at mine gave the wrong location for both the light novel and the manga (saying they were with the manga when they were actually with the teen books).

Which reminds me, my thanks to you people. I wouldn't have thought to look in the teen section if it hadn't been discussed here.

typhonsentra

2009-04-07, 11:38

Yeah, they had them all over the store. It was the new two-story one at Wiregrass.

BobaLunatic

2009-04-08, 01:41

Got mine at a Borders... but it wasn't on display at all. I had to find a worker, who was able to dig it out of the stockroom. And this was a week after the release date. :|

quigonkenny

2009-04-08, 02:01

Got mine via Amazon a week before release date. Paid less, too.

Checked out my nearby Borders to get manga volume 2 and found a mess of the novel in paperback (which actually doesn't look quite as bad in person) in the manga section (much like the FMP! novels), but nary a hardcover in the building. Their computer didn't show any in stock, so they may have been sold out already. Neither were in the Teen section.

The nearby B&N had neither on display in either Teen Fiction, General Fiction, or the Graphic Novel section (labelled as Manga, but including some non-manga Western comics like Watchmen, which was everywhere the Twilight books weren't). Since I wasn't planning on buying another copy, I didn't bug anyone to find out if they had any more.

Solachinx

2009-04-08, 03:45

^ I had to order my hardcopy from BAM, I think it's because they only printed 10K copies.

Hedd

2009-04-13, 18:21

^ I had to order my hardcopy from BAM, I think it's because they only printed 10K copies.

I didn't realize they were limited edition, they don't have a number on them. Guess I'm glad I got mine early then

bayoab

2009-04-13, 18:44

I didn't realize they were limited edition, they don't have a number on them. Guess I'm glad I got mine early then
It should be noted that Haruhi DVD vol 1 LE was a 20k print run and didn't even sell through 10k copies in the first 4 months.

Vexx

2009-04-14, 20:05

heh... I didn't realize the hardback translations were a "limited edition". Guess I'll take better care of mine....

orangejuicetang

2009-04-14, 22:20

same. I just ordered the first haruhi novel I saw from amazon. When it came, I was slightly disappointed it wasn't paperback, but than I noticed on the back it said "This exclusive hardcover collector's edition of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is presented using the original cover art from illustrator Noizi Ito as it appeared in the Japanese edition of the novel, making it the perfect addition to any Haruhi fan's personal library" idk, when I read that I thought that all of the Haruhi light novels would have that cover. Anyway, I'm really enjoying the novel even though I already read the translations before. Really rekindled my interest in Haruhi. If Season 2 is actually released soon, they couldn't have picked a better time for this novel to get here for me.

Emerald Emblem

2009-04-22, 04:32

I've bought the first 2 volumes of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya Manga, hated having to wait a few weeks for the 2nd volume which I have started reading this week.

ReneeBurossamu

2009-04-26, 15:07

wittyusername

2009-04-26, 15:12

Does anyone want to analyze Yuki's story in "Chief Editor? Straight Ahead!"?

I do! Mostly because I'm bored and avoiding homework, but oh well. Also, I'm pretty sure that this would be the right place for that discussion, because the Editor in Chief story was in the novels.

...Wow, I bet no one would ever guess that!

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-26, 15:26

*insert random discussion*

... I'm not really sure if this is the right place for it, (lol and I've been a part of here for a while.)
Does anyone want to analyze Yuki's story in "Chief Editor? Straight Ahead!"?
Even while I was reading it, I was a bit creeped by the meaning of the "Man sitting on the coffin" and the "Ghost girl".

Not just the "man sitting on the coffin", but the "smiling man sitting on the coffin".

A lot of people think it represents Kyon, but the use of "smiling" makes me think that it's Koizumi.

The "ghost girl" could either be Haruhi, Mikuru, Ryoko, or Emiri, more than likely the last two, given that the short story suggests that those without names are 'ghosts', and none of the interfaces had names upon coming to Earth. Maybe.

The first two parts I felt were fairly straightforward... it's only the last part that gets confusing.

The 'coffin' could be the Data Overmind... but then it would make more sense that it would be Kyon sitting on the coffin... but since when is Kyon identified by his smile?

And does Tanigawa put as much thought into his stories as we do?

wittyusername

2009-04-26, 15:51

The first two parts I felt were fairly straightforward... it's only the last part that gets confusing.

The last part has enough confusing stuff to make up for the first two parts, so it's all fine.

The 'coffin' could be the Data Overmind... but then it would make more sense that it would be Kyon sitting on the coffin... but since when is Kyon identified by his smile?

Never.

DAMN YUKI AND HER METAPHORS.

And does Tanigawa put as much thought into his stories as we do?

No.

I mean, he obviously puts some thought into the story, but he's not exactly in the same position as the fans of the series. In the absence of any new episodes airing at the moment or any new novels coming out, all we can do is twiddle our thumbs or speculate like there's no tomorrow.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-26, 16:13

I mean, he obviously puts some thought into the story, but he's not exactly in the same position as the fans of the series. In the absence of any new episodes airing at the moment or any new novels coming out, all we can do is twiddle our thumbs or speculate like there's no tomorrow.

I wonder what he's doing right now.

wittyusername

2009-04-26, 16:21

I wonder what he's doing right now.

That made me picture him just sitting at home, like every normal, 10th-novel-less day. He feels like he's being watched, even though he knows that's ridiculous. Still, the feeling keeps bugging him. He turns around and sees that there's a crazed otaku staring at him from outsite his window, holding all the Haruhi merchandise ever imagined...including a shiny new replica of Asakura's knife.
DUN DUN DUUUN.

Either that, or he's taking a shit or making toast or something equally mundane (and not related to the 10th novel at all). Or he's gone batshit, and...

...well, maybe it's safest not to look behind you.

ReneeBurossamu

2009-04-26, 17:05

Not just the "man sitting on the coffin", but the "smiling man sitting on the coffin".

A lot of people think it represents Kyon, but the use of "smiling" makes me think that it's Koizumi.

The "ghost girl" could either be Haruhi, Mikuru, Ryoko, or Emiri, more than likely the last two, given that the short story suggests that those without names are 'ghosts', and none of the interfaces had names upon coming to Earth. Maybe.

The first two parts I felt were fairly straightforward... it's only the last part that gets confusing.

The 'coffin' could be the Data Overmind... but then it would make more sense that it would be Kyon sitting on the coffin... but since when is Kyon identified by his smile?

And does Tanigawa put as much thought into his stories as we do?

I believe that the man on the coffin really is Itsuki, and the "ghost/sheet girl" is... Mikuru, as Kyon's POV suggested.
This makes me wonder why Itsuki would be keeping her from heading back to her Data Overmind.
Or what Mikuru and Itsuki's organizations have in common that keep them in rhythm. (during the "song".)

From what I've read about him, Tanigawa obviously doesn't speculate like us fans do. He didn't know where the plot was entirely going to head in the first few novels.

I think he's sleeping right now. Just a guess.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-26, 17:15

I believe that the man on the coffin really is Itsuki, and the "ghost/sheet girl" is... Mikuru, as Kyon's POV suggested.
This makes me wonder why Itsuki would be keeping her from heading back to her Data Overmind.
Or what Mikuru and Itsuki's organizations have in common that keep them in rhythm. (during the "song".)

Just makes me wonder what the three of them do when Kyon and Haruhi aren't around.

ReneeBurossamu

2009-04-26, 17:24

Just makes me wonder what the three of them do when Kyon and Haruhi aren't around.

It DOES. It'd suck if all three of them secretly don't like one another. *cough*
That's the weakness of writing from Kyon's perspective.

wittyusername

2009-04-26, 17:28

It DOES. It'd suck if all three of them secretly don't like one another. *cough*

Man, that would be awkward.

Just makes me wonder what the three of them do when Kyon and Haruhi aren't around.

Clearly they drag out a coffin and some sheets to perform a ritual ensuring good crop turnout Haruhi's happiness for the coming year. Possibly requiring a goat to slaughter.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-26, 17:28

It DOES. It'd suck if all three of them secretly don't like one another. *cough*

Pretty sure they don't. Or was that your point?

That's the weakness of writing from Kyon's perspective.

That's the point of the limited perspective.

Concealing important things from the reader.

Clearly they drag out a coffin and some sheets to perform a ritual ensuring good crop turnout Haruhi's happiness for the coming year. Possibly requiring a goat to slaughter.

That would be a hilarious subversion of the SYYYMBOLISM at work in Yuki's story.

ReneeBurossamu

2009-04-26, 17:32

Man, that would be awkward.

Clearly they drag out a coffin and some sheets to perform a ritual ensuring good crop turnout Haruhi's happiness for the coming year. Possibly requiring a goat to slaughter.

Pfft, the goddess of the world doesn't depend on ritual for good crops her happiness.

...the important things are funner....

wittyusername

2009-04-26, 17:44

That would be a hilarious subversion of the SYYYMBOLISM at work in Yuki's story.

Maybe that's what her story actually meant? 90% of the time Yuki acts straightforward and she tends to take things literally (more so in the earlier novels, but STILL.) So maybe she actually meant that she was in a room with a coffin, a smiling man, and a girl wearing a sheet, and that at some point the girl wearing the sheet started dancing and the smiling man sang along? Either way, Haruhi's reaction of "this is pretty disturbing" would fit.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-26, 17:46

Maybe that's what her story actually meant? 90% of the time Yuki acts straightforward and she tends to take things literally (more so in the earlier novels, but STILL.) So maybe she actually meant that she was in a room with a coffin, a smiling man, and a girl wearing a sheet, and that at some point the girl wearing the sheet started dancing and the smiling man sang along? Either way, Haruhi's reaction of "this is pretty disturbing" would fit.

Yeah, that would be awesome.

But then again, Yuki reads a lot of foreign, text-heavy fiction novels. I wouldn't be surprised if she learned heavy metaphor and symbolism from one of those books.

dragon4dudes

2009-04-26, 18:22

I almost want to bet that it is very closely tied in with either something that has happened but is not mentioned by Kyon yet, or something that will happen seeing as Yuki is rather literal. But that's just wishful thinking.

And besides doesn't she attend classes and read "text-heavy fiction novels"? She must learn something about metaphor, symbolism and other such literary devices.

Or it could be one of Tanigawa's poems he felt like putting into the novels.

On a side note, at this rate, as soon as the 10th novel comes out, if ever, the 11th novel, if there is one, would be released or at least have a release date. And if we're lucky, the 12th one immediately after that.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-26, 18:24

And besides doesn't she attend classes and read "text-heavy fiction novels"? She must learn something about metaphor, symbolism and other such literary devices.

Heh, true, but I somehow don't think she pays much attention in her classes.

Solachinx

2009-04-26, 18:31

The 'coffin' could be the Data Overmind... but then it would make more sense that it would be Kyon sitting on the coffin... but since when is Kyon identified by his smile?

And does Tanigawa put as much thought into his stories as we do?

At first I don't think he (Tanigawa) did, but I think he does later on in the series.

Off-Topic: I see you're using Data Overmind now, Kaisos ;P

wittyusername

2009-04-26, 18:39

On a side note, at this rate, as soon as the 10th novel comes out, if ever, the 11th novel, if there is one, would be released or at least have a release date. And if we're lucky, the 12th one immediately after that.

I don't know where everyone heard that the 10th novel would be the last. I think I may have missed a memo of some sort, because I just don't see how the story could be wrapped up in one more novel. Unless, of course, the mythical 10th novel is of epic, Shinjin-sized proportions. In which case, will it move and glow and destroy buildings? That would be pretty damn awesome, if unreadable.

...Moving on. If an 11th novel is confirmed when the 10th is released, it had better be published with haste. After all of Kadokawa's trolling and the bajillion-year-long wait for the 10th novel, I don't think fans are going to tolerate much more sitting around and waiting. As I mentioned before: Replica Asakura knives. If more delays happen, they will be created.

No, that was not a death threat. What?

Heh, true, but I somehow don't think she pays much attention in her classes.

She wouldn't need to, what with the whole alien-created-and-super-intelligent thing. I can't picture her hiding one of her giant hardcovers behind a textbook, though. Would she just fully take out a book and read in class (something I've had many a bad experience with, usually eliciting the response of "HOW DARE YOU READ A BOOK IN THIS ENGLISH CLASS?" from my teacher), or would she just spend the period staring at the chalkboard?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-26, 18:50

Off-Topic: I see you're using Data Overmind now, Kaisos ;P

Although I like the technobabble nature of the original term, Data Overmind is easier to digest and works just fine.

I don't know where everyone heard that the 10th novel would be the last. I think I may have missed a memo of some sort, because I just don't see how the story could be wrapped up in one more novel.

At least one person gets it. :heh:

The whole "tenth novel is the last" is partially from this hoax interview and partially from 2ch rumors.

She wouldn't need to, what with the whole alien-created-and-super-intelligent thing. I can't picture her hiding one of her giant hardcovers behind a textbook, though. Would she just fully take out a book and read in class (something I've had many a bad experience with, usually eliciting the response of "HOW DARE YOU READ A BOOK IN THIS ENGLISH CLASS?" from my teacher), or would she just spend the period staring at the chalkboard?

Actually. Just because she's a living robot doesn't mean she's super-intelligent, nor capable of doing well in school.

Persona 3 had a similar instance of the robot character failing miserably at everything except science and math, for understandable reasons.

I'm betting Yuki just reads in class. No one would bother her, as I remember the novels making the point that the entire class worships her, since she talks so little it's like that every word she actually says is a pearl of truth and wisdom.

wittyusername

2009-04-26, 18:55

Actually. Just because she's a living robot doesn't mean she's super-intelligent, nor capable of doing well in school.

I dunno about the "doing well in school" part, but...her intelligence is at least above average. So maybe it's more of a "she's a living robot who just happens to be smart" type of thing?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-26, 19:01

I dunno about the "doing well in school" part, but...her intelligence is at least above average. So maybe it's more of a "she's a living robot who just happens to be smart" type of thing?

Probably all the books she reads.

Though, the only really stupid recurring character in Haruhi is Taniguchi, so "above average" means little in a cast of "above average" characters.

wittyusername

2009-04-26, 19:04

Probably all the books she reads.

Though, the only really stupid recurring character in Haruhi is Taniguchi, so "above average" means little in a cast of "above average" characters.

Well, she's above the average of the majority of the cast. She's at least intelligent enough to confuse verbose old Kyon with a few big, technological words. She might have just memorized a dictionary or two, though...

Taniguchi makes up for his impairedness by making up catchy and entertaining songs about forgetting things, and by being a fairly cool cat, particularly in genderbent form.

dragon4dudes

2009-04-26, 19:09

Well, she's above the average of the majority of the cast. She's at least intelligent enough to confuse verbose old Kyon with a few big, technological words. She might have just memorized a dictionary or two, though...

She's god, remember. She has the ability to be as smart as she wants but her rationality prevents her from becoming nerd-smart.

wittyusername

2009-04-26, 19:15

She's god, remember. She has the ability to be as smart as she wants but her rationality prevents her from becoming nerd-smart.

Are you talking about Haruhi? I think the discussion was about Yuki, but I might be having a senior moment, or something equal to that in incompetence. >_>; Yuki could probably be considered a god of some sort, though not in the same sense as Haruhi, but I don't think that Yuki would have any problem with being a nerd.

dragon4dudes

2009-04-26, 19:21

Are you talking about Haruhi? I think the discussion was about Yuki, but I might be having a senior moment, or something equal to that in incompetence. >_>; Yuki could probably be considered a god of some sort, though not in the same sense as Haruhi, but I don't think that Yuki would have any problem with being a nerd.

No, we've talking about Haruhi for the past few posts.

Yuki is already borderline nerd with her enjoyments and all that. I just thought of a line from somewhere. I'm not sure of the exact quote but its gist is "Don't bully the nerds, they'll be your future bosses."

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-04-26, 19:36

Nope. Nagato has been the topic of discussion. "Haruhi" was only mentioned in reference to the series.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-26, 19:45

Taniguchi makes up for his impairedness by making up catchy and entertaining songs about forgetting things, and by being a fairly cool cat, particularly in genderbent form.

I never said Taniguchi wasn't awesome. You can be awesome and stupid at the same time.

No, we've talking about Haruhi for the past few posts.

You sure you're in the right place, dude?

dragon4dudes

2009-04-26, 20:10

I hope. I just had a check with a local psychiatrist and a nearby psychologist. They said I was fine.

Seitsuki

2009-04-28, 19:54

on another note.. still no word concerning vol 10?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-28, 20:35

on another note.. still no word concerning vol 10?

No, when there is, you will know, because this topic will have erupted.

quigonkenny

2009-04-28, 23:41

No, when there is, you will know, because this topic will have erupted.

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!! They just announced volume 10 is coming out in Japan next week!

*dies*

Oh, it's going to suck if this is the last book.

<Kaisos>: This is not the last book!

...Kinda like that, except much bigger.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-29, 01:12

...Kinda like that, except much bigger.

I'm not the only one who thinks that, ya know. >_>

Just trying to stop tha inevitable spread of misinformation.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-04-29, 01:31

Everyone except Kyon and Haruhi will die in the last book. That's been the set-up since Koizumi "jokingly" mentioned them being like Adam and Eve back in the first one. And I don't mean "everyone in the cast," I mean, "Kyon and Haruhi are the only sentient beings left, period."

At least, that's my crazy theory :heh:

dragon4dudes

2009-04-29, 02:19

What? similar to the Evangelion ending where Asuka and Shinji are the last humans left? I guess... It'd make a rather anticlimactic ending

Solachinx

2009-04-29, 03:27

Actually, I'd like to see what happens if Kyon or Haruhi die.

Seitsuki

2009-04-29, 05:26

Tabasco

2009-04-29, 09:21

if Kyon dies then Haruhi will ressurect him. If Haruhi dies...
uh the world will implode? depends on how it happens i suppose.
nah who am I kidding she's invincible. probably go smth like this
Haruhi- *dying*
Kyon- nuuuu dun die!! ;_;
Haruhi- *moved* *gets better*

It's just a flesh wound! :)

Sorry, couldn't resist. Anyway, it does bring up an interesting point. We've seen Sasaki's version of closed space, and apparently Kyon has some ability to decide who gets to be the goddess in the world.

So if Haruhi is mortally wounded, and/or dead, would her power transfer to Sasaki?

dragon4dudes

2009-04-29, 11:52

So, Haruhi and Sasaki are actually pagan gods. hmmm...

Note: pagan - adj. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-29, 12:41

So if Haruhi is mortally wounded, and/or dead, would her power transfer to Sasaki?

I'd think either Sasaki or Kyon.

My theory is that it takes a particular type of person to have control over the power... not just any old human can gain control of it.

Solachinx

2009-04-29, 14:41

I'd think either Sasaki or Kyon.

My theory is that it takes a particular type of person to have control over the power... not just any old human can gain control of it.

Then, what makes Haruhi, Sasaki, and *possibly* Kyon special compared to everyone else? Their cynicism/misanthropia?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-29, 15:01

Then, what makes Haruhi, Sasaki, and *possibly* Kyon special compared to everyone else? Their cynicism/misanthropia?

It's hinted throughout the novels that Kyon used to be a lot like Haruhi personality-wise... before he met Sasaki, at least.

Sasaki and Haruhi, however, are the exact opposite of each other, so...

My theory is that it requires some kind of extreme personality. Sort of the inverse of what enables an individual to use N.O. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FLCL)

Roger Rambo

2009-04-29, 15:26

It's hinted throughout the novels that Kyon used to be a lot like Haruhi personality-wise... before he met Sasaki, at least.

Sasaki and Haruhi, however, are the exact opposite of each other, so...

My theory is that it requires some kind of extreme personality. Sort of the inverse of what enables an individual to use N.O. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FLCL)Only problem this runs into is the fact that Yuki was able to steal "the power". I suppose with this bit of information (plus the Anti SOS's desire to have it transferred to Sasaki) indicates that the power will only work with humans.

Which brings up the question of why the IDE didn't just have one of their interfaces just grab the power from the start and use it for their research...

...Maybe it's because the IDE interfaces ARE crazy. Out of the 3 interfaces we've met, 2 of them have displayed crazy behavior at one point or another...and the 3rd one we barely ever see.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-29, 15:31

Only problem this runs into is the fact that Yuki was able to steal "the power". I suppose with this bit of information (plus the Anti SOS's desire to have it transferred to Sasaki) indicates that the power will only work with humans.

We don't know whether Yuki actually stole the powers themselves or whether she simply found a way to use them.

Which brings up the question of why the IDE didn't just have one of their interfaces just grab the power from the start and use it for their research...

Because the power wouldn't evolve when being used by an interface, maybe?

...Maybe it's because the IDE interfaces ARE crazy. Out of the 3 interfaces we've met, 2 of them have displayed crazy behavior at one point or another...and the 3rd one we barely ever see.

Even Kimidori has displayed some negative emotions... cold fury towards Kuyoh, to be precise.

Wouldn't be surprised if she went nuts in Vol. 10 Beta...

Perhaps this is the natural consequence of linking a human body to a non-physical data god?

Roger Rambo

2009-04-29, 16:09

We don't know whether Yuki actually stole the powers themselves or whether she simply found a way to use them.
And yet the manipulation was completely possible, but only done by one of the IDE who essentially went nuts.

Because the power wouldn't evolve when being used by an interface, maybe?

The IDE doesn't want the power/ability to evolve. They want to use it to evolve. So with the facts we know it doesn't entirely make sense why the IDE wouldn't just take the ability and use it for their own aims.

My thought was that there was something about the IDE interfaces that made them unsuitable for using the power for the IDE's purposes, or even to just hold onto for research purposes.

ex:An IDE Interface is incapable of controlling Avatar buildup "stress". Only Espers are capable of properly fighting the Avatars and controlling their build up. An IDE interface manipulating Haruhi's power would not be able to express Espers properly, meaning that Avatar Closed spaces would grow uncontrolled.

...So bassically during Disappearance Yuki's behavior almost resulted in the complete annihilation of the universe. Bad Yuki :nono:

Even Kimidori has displayed some negative emotions... cold fury towards Kuyoh, to be precise.

Wouldn't be surprised if she went nuts in Vol. 10 Beta...

Perhaps this is the natural consequence of linking a human body to a non-physical data god?
Which brings up a different possibility.

The IDE knew it could have had an interface take the power and let them take advantage of it/research it better...but that would mean putting it in the hands of an absolute bipolar schizoid.

I find the idea that the IDE considers their interfaces more demented than Haruhi amusing.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-29, 16:14

The IDE doesn't want the power/ability to evolve. They want to use it to evolve. So with the facts we know it doesn't entirely make sense why the IDE wouldn't just take the ability and use it for their own aims.

Didn't they want to figure out how she creates data out of nothing so they can reverse engineer it and use it to evolve?

ex:An IDE Interface is incapable of controlling Avatar buildup "stress". Only Espers are capable of properly fighting the Avatars and controlling their build up. An IDE interface manipulating Haruhi's power would not be able to express Espers properly, meaning that Avatar Closed spaces would grow uncontrolled.

Fits in well with my theory. Only certain human beings are capable of controlling the Avatar buildup.

Since both Sasaki and Haruhi appear to have created Espers...

I find the idea that the IDE considers their interfaces more demented than Haruhi amusing.

I agree, very amusing indeed.

Roger Rambo

2009-04-29, 16:22

Didn't they want to figure out how she creates data out of nothing so they can reverse engineer it and use it to evolve?
Yes. So everytime Haruhi did something with her "power" they were very interested in observing it in order to figure out how it worked. But Haruhi didn't always "put out". From a simply pragmatic perspective, the IDE would have simply grabbed the power and started tinkering with it until they figured out how it worked. They didn't. That would suggest that there was something preventing them from doing it.

I'm thinking it was a matter of the IDE thinking that it's interfaces which could manipulate the power

A:Did not have the ability to safely hold the power
or
B:Were not reliable enough to be given that much power

Fits in well with my theory. Only certain human beings are capable of controlling the Avatar buildup.

Since both Sasaki and Haruhi appear to have created Espers...

The fact that Sasaki had an Esper group seemed to be a strong indicator that such individuals are part of the natural control system for individuals who can utilize the power.

I agree, very amusing indeed.
People give Haruhi a hard time for doing wacky shit with her abilities. But she is hardly that bad. Imagine if it was in some North Korean peasant who'd been indoctrinated into believing that Kim was a god? Or a white supremacist. Or Charles Manson!

Helter Skelter anyone?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-29, 16:49

The fact that Sasaki had an Esper group seemed to be a strong indicator that such individuals are part of the natural control system for individuals who can utilize the power.

I think we've just figured out something concrete about the Haruhiverse. Excellent.

People give Haruhi a hard time for doing wacky shit with her abilities. But she is hardly that bad. Imagine if it was in some North Korean peasant who'd been indoctrinated into believing that Kim was a god? Or a white supremacist. Or Charles Manson!

Helter Skelter anyone?

One reason I think the "Haruhi is a sociopath" argument is worthless. As you say, she isn't that bad.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-04-29, 18:21

What? similar to the Evangelion ending where Asuka and Shinji are the last humans left?

Amusingly enough, I didn't even realize the Eva parallel until after I posted :heh:

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-29, 18:28

Amusingly enough, I didn't even realize the Eva parallel until after I posted :heh:

I've been saying that Haruhi should end like that for years...

Roger Rambo

2009-04-29, 19:44

I think we've just figured out something concrete about the Haruhiverse. Excellent.

Thanks.

One reason I think the "Haruhi is a sociopath" argument is worthless. As you say, she isn't that bad.
If Haruhi was a true malevolent sociopath the world would be a far scarier place.

quigonkenny

2009-04-30, 02:10

Which brings up the question of why the IDE didn't just have one of their interfaces just grab the power from the start and use it for their research...
Anybody ever seen Stargate SG-1? Giving a Cliff Notes version of the pertinent section of the 10-year-long storyline, there's this super-advanced alien race called the Asgard (they are more or less the inspiration for Norse mythology) who created these semi-sentient insectoid machines called "Replicators" (imagine if an Erector set mated with a box of Legos), who (surprise, surprise) turn against their creators and threaten to wipe them out by literally eating everything and turning it into more Replicators (hence the name). Problem is, the Asgard are massively advanced, but after millenia of cloning to extend their lives and consciousnesses, they have reached a dead end in both evolution and imagination. As a result, the fight against the nigh-indestructable Replicators is not going well. Enter our plucky human protagonists, who after finding no luck attacking the Replicators with energy weapons (and finding that the Asgard have had no luck with their own considerably more potent and advanced energy weapons) take to blasting them to pieces with small arms fire, to great success. Throughout the majority of the rest of the series, the Asgard, instead of just churning out a ton of shotguns and uzis to defend themselves, continue to rely on the humans to pull their little "Grey" asses out of the fire in battles against the Replicators. The concept of using projectile weapons is so ancient and backward to them that they are more or less incapable of even considering it.

So it is with the Data Overmind. Sure, Yuki can "borrow" Haruhi's (and Mikuru's) power to turn everything within a year or two radius into one big bachelorette pad in order to get Kyon into her pants, but the execution is imperfect, and would have likely been doomed to failure due to a still-psychopathic Asakura, even had Kyon not hit the reset button. The grasp of Haruhi's powers is even more "alien" to the Data Overmind as a whole, so there's no way they'd be able to just pick it up and figure it out on their own. This is one situation where observation is the only way to learn.

Since both Sasaki and Haruhi appear to have created Espers...

I still have my doubts that Tachibana is a "Sasaki Esper". I think that either she's a rogue "Haruhi Esper" that has a slightly different power from Itsuki (illusion, limited mind control), or a powerless "potential Sasaki Esper" and the undoubtedly powered Kuyoh was the one manipulating Kyon's perceptions of Tachibana's "powers". Assuming, as the "Haruhi Espers" such as Itsuki believe, that all their power comes from Haruhi, how would Tachibana have any power if Sasaki has had hers usurped? That and "Sasaki's Closed Space" and the little details of going and coming out of it just strike me as...off...

Roger Rambo

2009-04-30, 06:13

*snip*
Not quite sure if this is a good analogy.

The disappearance saga suggests pretty strongly that an IDE interface is perfectly capable of manipulating the power. Any apparent limitation limitation with the power is more likely due to Yuki's own restraint than any hardset limit on her ability to use the power. I mean, she removed the IDE from the entire UNIVERSE.

The only reason the IDE wouldn't take the power either for direct practical application or for easier experimentation is probably because they had control issues of some kind.
Assuming, as the "Haruhi Espers" such as Itsuki believe, that all their power comes from Haruhi, how would Tachibana have any power if Sasaki has had hers usurped?
I think the Sasaki Espers still do have their power. It's just that they have little opportunity to utilize it due to Sasaki not creating Avatars, or not being capable of producing them at this time.

The fact that they can enter closed spaces suggests that they still have power despite Sasaki not having anyone.

That and "Sasaki's Closed Space" and the little details of going and coming out of it just strike me as...off...
It's supposed to. It's supposed to remind you that there are fundemental differences between Haruhi and Sasaki.

Tabasco

2009-04-30, 08:24

Not quite sure if this is a good analogy.

The disappearance saga suggests pretty strongly that an IDE interface is perfectly capable of manipulating the power. Any apparent limitation limitation with the power is more likely due to Yuki's own restraint than any hardset limit on her ability to use the power. I mean, she removed the IDE from the entire UNIVERSE.

I wonder if it isn't a chicken and egg problem. Did using the power send Yuki for a loop, and make her do all those things, or was she slowly going nuts to begin with and that drove her to use it?

The only reason the IDE wouldn't take the power either for direct practical application or for easier experimentation is probably because they had control issues of some kind.

Or they wanted a try before you buy. If they genuinely don't know what it is, it might be a good ideal to keep it in somebody else's body rather than hook it up directly to what are essentially one of the gods of the universe.

I think the Sasaki Espers still do have their power. It's just that they have little opportunity to utilize it due to Sasaki not creating Avatars, or not being capable of producing them at this time.

The fact that they can enter closed spaces suggests that they still have power despite Sasaki not having anyone.

It's supposed to. It's supposed to remind you that there are fundemental differences between Haruhi and Sasaki.

I wonder about Sasaki a little. I mean, she looks saner than Haruhi on her best day, but then she goes and associates with this anti-SOS brigade that couldn't look any shadier if it tried...

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-30, 08:50

I wonder about Sasaki a little. I mean, she looks saner than Haruhi on her best day, but then she goes and associates with this anti-SOS brigade that couldn't look any shadier if it tried...

Of course, despite how bad they look, Fujiwara's goals at the least seem a hell of a lot more noble than the goals of the actual SOS Brigade.

This may be the point.

Also, this (http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/04/30/the-shock-of-suzumiya-haruhi-delayed-another-year/) made me laugh (NSFW). Artefact is such a horrible troll.

PastPrime

2009-04-30, 09:36

I think the Sasaki Espers still do have their power. It's just that they have little opportunity to utilize it due to Sasaki not creating Avatars, or not being capable of producing them at this time.

The fact that they can enter closed spaces suggests that they still have power despite Sasaki not having anyone.
I think that it is very possible that Sasaki does have powers similar to Haruhi, but because of her personality and outlook she has never used them. Perhaps she and Haruhi are like Yin and Yang. Opposite sides of the same power.

I wonder if it isn't a chicken and egg problem. Did using the power send Yuki for a loop, and make her do all those things, or was she slowly going nuts to begin with and that drove her to use it?
The novels indicate that it was Yuki's inability to deal with the increasing amount of "Junk Data", i.e. her developing human emotions that the IDE could not understand, that caused her to create a world where she could have Kyon. But, because of her faith in and her feelings for Kyon, she gave him the ability to restore the original Time Line. I think that it would be very interesting if she was to declare herself as Haruhi's rival for Kyon's affections. He has already realized that he is as attracted to Yuki as he is to Mikuru.

CrowKenobi

2009-04-30, 13:13

Perhaps she and Haruhi are like Yin and Yang. Opposite sides of the same power.Perhaps they are opposite sides of the same person! :uhoh:

:cool:

Roger Rambo

2009-04-30, 13:39

I wonder if it isn't a chicken and egg problem. Did using the power send Yuki for a loop, and make her do all those things, or was she slowly going nuts to begin with and that drove her to use it?
Since prior to this none of the interfaces had ever tried to acquire the power, I'm inclined to believe it was due to Yuki going nuts prior to getting it.

Or they wanted a try before you buy. If they genuinely don't know what it is, it might be a good ideal to keep it in somebody else's body rather than hook it up directly to what are essentially one of the gods of the universe.
If it was anything like that it would have been done long before Kyon came into the picture.

I wonder about Sasaki a little. I mean, she looks saner than Haruhi on her best day, but then she goes and associates with this anti-SOS brigade that couldn't look any shadier if it tried...
Read KaiSOS'es post.
I think that it is very possible that Sasaki does have powers similar to Haruhi, but because of her personality and outlook she has never used them. Perhaps she and Haruhi are like Yin and Yang. Opposite sides of the same power.
If that was the case I doubt the Anti SOS would be organizing operation "Get Kyon to help us depower Haruhi and give it Sasaki".

The novels indicate that it was Yuki's inability to deal with the increasing amount of "Junk Data", i.e. her developing human emotions that the IDE could not understand, that caused her to create a world where she could have Kyon. But, because of her faith in and her feelings for Kyon, she gave him the ability to restore the original Time Line. I think that it would be very interesting if she was to declare herself as Haruhi's rival for Kyon's affections. He has already realized that he is as attracted to Yuki as he is to Mikuru.
That would count as bad end.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-04-30, 13:43

Of course, despite how bad they look, Fujiwara's goals at the least seem a hell of a lot more noble than the goals of the actual SOS Brigade.

Does that include kidnapping Mikuru on the street?

Granted, Haruhi technically kidnapped Mikuru too, but at least Mikuru had agreed to stay because of her mission.

SOS dan certainly has a noble goal; a bunch of friends having fun, isn't that good enough? In case you forgot, that's what a school-club is suppose to be.

If Fujiwara wants to fight his fate, he can do it on his own and not get others involved. As it is, he is just complaining about what he has to do regardless. It's like an assassin complaining about not liking to kill people, but kills you anyway.

Roger Rambo

2009-04-30, 14:27

Does that include kidnapping Mikuru on the street?
It's kind of hard to hold that against them when you take yourself outside the POV that Mikuru is cute/charming and consider the nature of the organization she represents. Do you really think the time travelers have the luxury of maintaining their future by committing nothing but acts as innocent as insuring that two people will get married?

What do you think the Time Travelers do when they have to ensure that someone needs to die a horrible painful death?

SOS dan certainly has a noble goal; a bunch of friends having fun, isn't that good enough? In case you forgot, that's what a school-club is suppose to be.

That's viewing it simplistically. The SOS Dan exists to keep Haruhi happy. The three "Haruhi" factions do this for entirely pragmatic reasons, it coincides with their aims.

Espers/Organization:Keep humanity safe
IDE:Study Haruhi
Time Travelers:Preserve history

We get quite a few hints throughout the series that the actual organizations/groups are far more insidious than their representatives in the club would suggest.

If Fujiwara wants to fight his fate, he can do it on his own and not get others involved. As it is, he is just complaining about what he has to do regardless. It's like an assassin complaining about not liking to kill people, but kills you anyway.
Again, our narrator does not have a good overall view of the situation and has personal bias. It's very possible that Fujiwara's goals may be far more noble than his personality or methods might suggest.

Sute443

2009-04-30, 17:46

Does that include kidnapping Mikuru on the street?

You do realize that it was Tachibana's group that was behind that one, don't you?

Fujiwara was actually quite irritated about having to be involved in the whole thing. Mostly, because, history stated that they had to do it. And his faction's goal, if you'll remember, is to make it so that they don't have to do the stuff history says they did. The whole point of his group going to the past is to use the Haruhi-powers to make it so they don't have to do things like kidnap Mikuru.

Unless the whole thing about there being two factions of time travelers is just Mikuru's group screwing with us.

SOS dan certainly has a noble goal; a bunch of friends having fun, isn't that good enough? In case you forgot, that's what a school-club is suppose to be.

On the scale of nobility, I think "Making it so we don't have to live our lives as mere puppets of history" is a good deal more noble than "friends having fun."

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-30, 17:51

On the scale of nobility, I think "Making it so we don't have to live our lives as mere puppets of history" is a good deal more noble than "friends having fun."

Quoted for truth.

dragon4dudes

2009-04-30, 21:55

Reading all of the above, I just thought of something. How many time paradoxes have been created in the Haruhiverse?

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-04-30, 21:57

None we know of, according to consensus... just three or four stable time loops.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-30, 22:17

Only thing resembling a true paradox (that Kyon hasn't fixed) is the timequake that cut off the past three/four years ago.

And we know the time travelers have been into the past before because of the artifact now in the care of the Tsuruya family. (I doubt there are Precursors in Haruhi.)

dragon4dudes

2009-04-30, 22:32

Only thing resembling a true paradox (that Kyon hasn't fixed) is the timequake that cut off the past three/four years ago.

And how is the timequake a paradox? The connection is not clear.
Crap. Reasoning analysis is kicking in. Damn you Social Studies department...:frustrated:

And we know the time travelers have been into the past before because of the artifact now in the care of the Tsuruya family. (I doubt there are Precursors in Haruhi.)

Did we discuss the potential importance of the Tsuruya family? I forget, though I know it is somewhere, I don't remember where.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-04-30, 22:54

Only thing resembling a true paradox (that Kyon hasn't fixed) is the timequake that cut off the past three/four years ago.

Can you specify what kind of paradox it is?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-30, 23:02

Can you specify what kind of paradox it is?

No. Hence the "resembling". It's not even a real paradox, just Haruhi dicking with the timeline.

Haruhi is fairly unique in popular fiction in that it manages to avoid universe-breaking paradoxes. Unlike, say, Chrono Trigger. Oh, Chrono Trigger.

Did we discuss the potential importance of the Tsuruya family? I forget, though I know it is somewhere, I don't remember where.

They're secretly a family of absurdly rich epic-level martial artists?

And they have a Batcave?

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-04-30, 23:20

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-04-30, 23:25

What do you think the Time Travelers do when they have to ensure that someone needs to die a horrible painful death?

I don't know, why don't you ask the anti-SOS-dan? They were the ones trying to run a child over with a truck so he could never invent the time machine, and Mikuru had to save him.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-30, 23:40

Actually... correction: There is one undeniable ontological paradox: In Melancholy, Adult Mikuru uses the mole on her breast as a means to identify herself to Kyon. At this point, Kyon did not know she had one there, and the event of him telling her about it(and thus letting her know) didn't come until the end of the story.

Isn't that just a time loop, effectively?

Predestination/ontological paradoxes are only paradoxes in that the information/object comes from nowhere, not in that they cause any sort of break in consistency.

I don't know, why don't you ask the anti-SOS-dan? They were the ones trying to run a child over with a truck so he could never invent the time machine, and Mikuru had to save him.

So both sides are morally ambiguous. Big surprise, that's how real life works too.

For what it's worth, I side with Fujiwara. Being a puppet isn't a very pleasant idea.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-04-30, 23:47

So both sides are morally ambiguous. Big surprise, that's how real life works too.

For what it's worth, I side with Fujiwara. Being a puppet isn't a very pleasant idea.

So who would you like to run over with a truck today?

If you don't like to do it, don't side with them. Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.

Sute443

2009-04-30, 23:55

I don't know, why don't you ask the anti-SOS-dan? They were the ones trying to run a child over with a truck so he could never invent the time machine, and Mikuru had to save him.

That was trying to change the past by killing someone. You can ask Fujiwara's group about what to do when they have to kill someone to change the past. Their answer, of course: They fail. If they had succeeded, it would have created a paradox.

When/if Mikuru's group has to make someone die to preserve the past, they do something different: They succeed. See, they wouldn't have to kill someone in the past unless that person died according to history. And if that person would live without their intervention, but history records that person's death, then their attempt to kill that person must succeed because history says so. If they fail, it would create a paradox.

Isn't that just a time loop, effectively?

Predestination/ontological paradoxes are only paradoxes in that the information/object comes from nowhere, not in that they cause any sort of break in consistency.

They do break consistency a little bit, but no more than quantum mechanics allows. See, while you can see how they work once they get closed, they can't be predicted by observing the past. Newtonian physics, if possessing a consciousness, would hate them. But quantum mechanics says that bits of matter spontaneously appear every now and then, so why not information?

Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.

True, liking one more than the other doesn't mean they're automatically more admirable. The fact that (unless it is all a put-on by Mikuru's group) Fujiwara is trying to stop being a puppet, though, does. The Anti-SOS Dan wants to improve things (as far as they see them).

Kaisos Erranon

2009-04-30, 23:58

So who would you like to run over with a truck today?

Whoever deserves it or whoever would free us from consistency?

If you don't like to do it, don't side with them. Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.

I love the SOS-dan. Just not their superiors, who scare me a little.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-01, 00:00

The Anti-SOS Dan wants to improve things (as far as they see them).
And so does SOS-dan, so we are going around in circles. Everyone does what he/she think is for the best. Even when Yuki hacked the universe, or when Asakura tried to stab Kyon.

It's not what you want, but how you do things to get it, that matters.

I love the SOS-dan. Just not their superiors, who scare me a little.
The only bosses of SOS-dan are Haruhi and Kyon. The time-travelers wouldn't EXIST unless Haruhi had written the school publication. And whatever future they have in mind is subject to change. Kyon had blackmailed Yuki's bosses; he can do the same for Mikuru's bosses if he wants.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-01, 00:05

So who would you like to run over with a truck today?

If you don't like to do it, don't side with them. Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.

So, have you injured someone so they can hook up with a person working at the hospital lately?

Mikuru's group isn't really much better. While it obviously hasn't come up yet, they'd most likely be just as willing to kill someone to ensure the future as Fujiwara's group would be to change it.

*e* and I think he meant the superiors of the three factions associated with the SOS Brigade...

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-01, 00:05

It's not what you want, but how you do things to get it, that matters.

So the question should be "what is more efficient"?

The only bosses of SOS-dan are Haruhi and Kyon. The time-travelers wouldn't EXIST unless Haruhi had written the school publication. And whatever future they have in mind is subject to change. Kyon had blackmailed Yuki's bosses; he can do the same for Mikuru's bosses if he wants.

Why would he do this though? To him, Mikuru's boss is Mikuru herself.

Besides. There's no proof Haruhi actually rewrote the universe in that way. The only people who believe that are the Espers, represented by Koizumi, and Koizumi practically admits to be lying half the time.

They do break consistency a little bit, but no more than quantum mechanics allows. See, while you can see how they work once they get closed, they can't be predicted by observing the past. Newtonian physics, if possessing a consciousness, would hate them. But quantum mechanics says that bits of matter spontaneously appear every now and then, so why not information?

I always thought the information or objects, or, in the case of Haruhi, data, was created from concentrated, manifested timestream or something.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-01, 00:08

Besides. There's no proof Haruhi actually rewrote the universe in that way. The only people who believe that are the Espers, represented by Koizumi, and Koizumi practically admits to be lying half the time.

Mikuru had been shown to be SHOCKED that Haruhi's theory in the school publication was the equivalent of E=mc^2 of time-travel, that was taught to all school kids in the future. The source of the original theory was not known at the time, and we don't know of Mikuru had told anyone even as an adult. It is essentially fact that Haruhi created time-travelers the old fashioned way; by making time travel possible.
But that Haruhi, after saying "I'm gonna write something, too!" only contributed a short piece aside from the self-important editorial postscript.

Entitled "Save the world by Overloading it with fun: Section One ・A Memo on the Formulae for Looking at Tomorrow," the article was loaded with figures or symbols which, according to Haruhi's explanation, are to be considered for the perpetual continuation of the SOS Brigade, and though that just seems like something she would say, I, at least, could not make any sense out of the text.

Order in chaos, is a figure of speech that expresses this uncertainty, and while it carries with it the impression that the contents of Haruhi's head had just spilled out on it, so to speak―――.

However, what surprised me was how Asahina-san looked like her legs were about to give out after reading that pseudo-article.

"But that's....... If that was how it was......."

Since she had looked so shocked and her eyes so wide open that it seemed like those cute pupils of hers would pop out, I asked her why, but Asahina-san replied,

"I can't talk about it much since it's classified information, but......"

After giving her refusal,

"This is the central foundation of the time plane theory. In my time period......erm, for people like me, it is the very first thing we learn. But who the originator was and which time it came from, has always been a mystery...... That it would turn out to be Suzumiya-san......"

She was speechless after that. I went along with her and said nothing, although coincidentally, a wild idea had sprung into my mind.

Haruhi would probably be bringing home at least one copy of the club journal we had made. And that club journal, you can't say that there won't be any chance it would catch that Hakase-kun-like, bespectacled kid's eye. Haruhi was that boy's special tutor, after all. Although Asahina-san and I had already given that Hakase-kun a lot of cues, I guess that wasn't all of it. Would Haruhi become the root cause, after all? Even if she didn't, it would probably be a mix of various elements. The number of questions I wanted to ask Asahina-san (big) had just increased by one again.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-01, 00:10

Mikuru had been shown to be SHOCKED that Haruhi's theory in the school publication was the equivalent of E=mc^2 of time-travel, that was taught to all school kids in the future. The source of the original theory was not known at the time, and we don't know of Mikuru had told anyone even as an adult. It is essentially fact that Haruhi created time-travelers the old fashioned way; by making time travel possible.

Hrr. True. I'll give you that.

Sute443

2009-05-01, 00:18

And so does SOS-dan, so we are going around in circles. Everyone does what he/she think is for the best. Even when Yuki hacked the universe, or when Asakura tried to stab Kyon.

It's not what you want, but how you do things to get it, that matters.

Doing what they think is best does not equal working to improve things. While the Organization would like to see the powers disappear while otherwise maintaining the world as it is (improvement) and the IDTE would like to use the power to evolve (unknown impact), Mikuru's group is opposed to improving things. Their goal is maintaining the status quo at whatever their history says happened.

For a time traveler, any horrible thing that will happen to you between the time you are in and the time the time traveler came from is part of the status quo. And it wouldn't make sense to not be willing to tell people you want on your side their futures unless said people would prefer to avoid said future events.

The only bosses of SOS-dan are Haruhi and Kyon. The time-travelers wouldn't EXIST unless Haruhi had written the school publication. And whatever future they have in mind is subject to change. Kyon had blackmailed Yuki's bosses; he can do the same for Mikuru's bosses if he wants.

Um, no he can't. If the future - the future that is their present - changes, that would be the same as destroying their world. He can't exactly blackmail them with something worse than that.

I always thought the information or objects, or, in the case of Haruhi, data, was created from concentrated, manifested timestream or something.

Heh, no need to resort to something like that when quantum mechanics will suffice.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-01, 00:22

Hrr. True. I'll give you that.

This also means something else; since Haruhi is the source of time travel technology, the invention of time travel is essentially guaranteed. You can try to kill people off associated with time machine construction, but Haruhi is the pillar holding everything up from the ground. You can't kill the source; though the anti-SOS dan might be trying that.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-01, 00:25

Heh, no need to resort to something like that when quantum mechanics will suffice.

Never understood quantum physics. It's like they took every confusing aspect of science, put it in a single box, and labeled it.

You can't kill the source; though the anti-SOS dan might be trying that.

Transfer the power to Sasaki, kill Haruhi? Makes sense.

Scary part is, Vol. 9 being how it is, this might actually work in the Beta timeline.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-01, 00:28

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-01, 00:43

To be honest, I'm expecting one of the "timelines" to be the result of Kyon being in a Lotus Eater Machine (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine)... most likely caused by either the Data Overmind or the Canopy Domain.

Beta seems less... permanent. Just the larger presence of the Anti-SOS and Yuki's sickness. (And besides, Alpha is going to give us a new member and I want her to be permanent.)

But isn't a Lotus Eater Machine a POSITIVE fantasy? Then you'd be implying that Alpha is the fake world and Beta is the real one.... that's a bit too GRIMDARK for Haruhi.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-01, 01:17

The Beta timeline is more along the lines of something Kyon is used to experiencing, and thus he wouldn't expect anything of it. The Alpha timeline is, with the exception of the new girl, dull compared to the rest of the series.

If it's something the Data Overmind is doing to Kyon, it'd be the Beta timeline that's the fake, as they already know that Kyon likes his messed up life, and it'd serve to make certain that he stays on their "side" by portraying the opposition as bad. As for Nagato's sickness during it, what better way to make the Canopy Domain seem bad than by simulating something Kyon already knows they've done to her? Alternatively, they're keeping him in a LEM to hide the fact that she's been deleted and everyone is slowly forgetting she even existed, with her sickness ultimately resulting in "death" in the dream to ensure Kyon doesn't manipulate Haruhi into bringing her back.

If it's the Canopy Domain, then the Alpha timeline is the fake, as they'd be trying to make his life in the SOS Brigade seem dull. Alternatively, they don't really know he actually enjoys the bizarre occurrences in his life and are trying to give him as close to a normal life as he'd believe. If the Alpha timeline would be the fake, then the new girl is actually the key thing that will make Kyon ultimately realize what the heck is going on and break out of it.

Another possibility is that they're both manipulating him simultaneously, and neither timeline is real. The seemingly random jumps between the two are instances where one illusion overtakes the other.

Of course, this is just an insane theory :heh:

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-01, 01:21

That's actually a really awesome theory. Cookies to you.

Also, the novels usually start off fairly dull... and then something really big happens.

I'm still more inclined to think that these are actually parallel universes and that new girl is a slider though. Would make sense.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-01, 01:36

It's funny how the more insane my theories get, the better they end up sounding to others...

quigonkenny

2009-05-01, 02:24

On the scale of nobility, I think "Making it so we don't have to live our lives as mere puppets of history" is a good deal more noble than "friends having fun."

That's like saying that 6x must be more than 4y because 6 is more than 4. You're not getting all of the equation.

For all we know, "Fujiwara's" group of time travelers are the time traveler equivalent of post WWI Germany. With the massive post-war penalties levied on Germany, the average German, who most likely had little to do with the war their former leaders got them into, would feel pretty much like a "puppet" of the rest of Europe. What they ended up doing to try to make their country great again was to elect a charismatic leader with a strong message who they thought would lead them back to greatness. It...didn't work out too well.

On the other side, "friends having fun" has a pretty straightforward "noble" component when experience shows that one of those "friends" is very capable of subconsciously destroying the universe and all her billions of sentient creatures in a fit of boredom...

Sympathize with "Fujiwara" all you want, but if one of the timelines ends up with Kyon giving the victory to his side, don't be too surprised when Ol' "Fuji" declares "Finally! With them gone, there's no one to stop us from nuking Detroit!"...

To be honest, I'm expecting one of the "timelines" to be the result of Kyon being in a Lotus Eater Machine (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine)... most likely caused by either the Data Overmind or the Canopy Domain.

For the Man Who Has Everything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_man_who_has_everything).

Best. Justice League. Ever.

It's funny how the more insane my theories get, the better they end up sounding to others...

Insane theory is insane, all right... ^_^

With all the convolution involved in Haruhi to this point, wouldn't the most surprising and satisfying thing be if everything actually was what it seemed to be for once?

Roger Rambo

2009-05-01, 06:17

I don't know, why don't you ask the anti-SOS-dan? They were the ones trying to run a child over with a truck so he could never invent the time machine, and Mikuru had to save him.
I don't recall it being the Sasaki time travelers who tried to run over the kid with the truck...

Of course you could argue that if there was any attempt such as this, it'd be more comparable to that one Star Trek episode where they killed that good intentioned peace activist who would have prevented the US from joining world war 2, letting the Nazi's win.

So who would you like to run over with a truck today?

If you don't like to do it, don't side with them. Just because you don't like the SOS-dan doesn't mean the Anti-SOS-dan is automatically more desirable. Fujiwara is STILL a puppet; that's why he complains.
It's a very real possibility that the Sasaki time travelers ARE the closest thing to good guys from the future.

On one hand we have the time travelers who realistically have to resort to the mass murder of millions continually to meet their objectives.

Then we have Sasaki time travelers, who may have to kill quite a few (but still less than the Mikuru faction) for some time and who's success would mean they wouldn't have to kill anyone anymore and that the Haruhi time travelers wouldn't have to kill anyone.

It's not what you want, but how you do things to get it, that matters.

The Mikuru time travelers realistically would have to do things in a very nasty manner in comparison to the Fujiwara group.
*snip*
And that's what the Mikuru group could be.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-01, 09:30

I don't recall it being the Sasaki time travelers who tried to run over the kid with the truck...

Who else could it BE? It was Mikuru's mission to save the kid. The kid who was NOT suppose to be killed originally. Someone wanted to murder a child so time travel would never happen. That's Sasaki's people.

Of course, now that they know Haruhi is the true source of the time machine, they have to kill Haruhi, a much harder task.
The Mikuru time travelers realistically would have to do things in a very nasty manner in comparison to the Fujiwara group.
Example?
I give you "run kid over with truck" by the Fujiwara group. You give me something worse. There is no evidence that Fujiwara kill less people than Mikuru. You just THINK they do.

ijuinkun

2009-05-01, 09:41

For all we know, "Fujiwara's" group of time travelers are the time traveler equivalent of post WWI Germany. With the massive post-war penalties levied on Germany, the average German, who most likely had little to do with the war their former leaders got them into, would feel pretty much like a "puppet" of the rest of Europe. What they ended up doing to try to make their country great again was to elect a charismatic leader with a strong message who they thought would lead them back to greatness. It...didn't work out too well.

Let's try to avoid invoking Godwin's Law, shall we?

Anyway, IMO, Mikuru's faction want to keep the past intact chiefly because any significant changes will result in people and things in their world becoming Ret Gone (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RetGone), i.e. erased from existence. You'd do a lot of morally dubious things too if you thought that you were preventing a change in history that would result in your friends, a family member, your nation, or possibly your SELF having never existed. I expect that it is the belief of Mikuru's faction that the goals of Fujiwara's faction can not be realized without the whole timeline from Haruhi's time until their own being rewritten, including the retroactive non-existance of any people who would not be in the new timeline.

Let's look at the standard "Terminator" scenario. Somebody really REALLY hates somebody very dear to you will do, whom he blames for ruining his live, even though the action against himself itself is not one that a third party would call a morally reprehensible one. Maybe it was witnessing against him in court, resulting in him being jailed, or maybe it was something as unaware and innocent as making him late for an appointment and unwittingly causing him to be rejected for a job. Anyway, so this guy goes back in time and decides that the solution to his problem is to kill the person he blames before the offense ever happened. Now, let's say that you also have access to time travel, and you travel back in time to catch this guy just as he is about to pull the trigger.

The question is: Would (and should) you stop him, even if you have to kill him to do so?

More abstractly, how far would you go to ensure that yourself, or your husband/wife/family/friends are born (or are not killed)? That is the kind of dilemma that Mikuru's faction are facing. How many people can a person kill (or otherwise harm) in order to survive before we can be morally justified in saying that he or she should just submit to being killed instead?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-01, 13:24

How many people can a person kill (or otherwise harm) in order to survive before we can be morally justified in saying that he or she should just submit to being killed instead?

A question invoked throughout real history many times.

Which is more evil? The person who kills a few to save the many or the person who kills many to save a few?

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-01, 13:30

Let's look at the standard "Terminator" scenario. Somebody really REALLY hates somebody very dear to you will do, whom he blames for ruining his live, even though the action against himself itself is not one that a third party would call a morally reprehensible one. Maybe it was witnessing against him in court, resulting in him being jailed, or maybe it was something as unaware and innocent as making him late for an appointment and unwittingly causing him to be rejected for a job. Anyway, so this guy goes back in time and decides that the solution to his problem is to kill the person he blames before the offense ever happened. Now, let's say that you also have access to time travel, and you travel back in time to catch this guy just as he is about to pull the trigger.

The question is: Would (and should) you stop him, even if you have to kill him to do so?

The problem with this scenario is that very few people would allow a loved one to die over something trivial, so it's heavily biased in favor of keeping history unchanged.

Sute443

2009-05-01, 13:35

Never understood quantum physics. It's like they took every confusing aspect of science, put it in a single box, and labeled it.

The universe is under no obligation to make sense to we humans.

Who else could it BE? It was Mikuru's mission to save the kid. The kid who was NOT suppose to be killed originally. Someone wanted to murder a child so time travel would never happen. That's Sasaki's people.

But not Sasaki's time travelers. The van appeared to belong to Sasaki's Espers. It would be a mistake to think that the groups of the Anti-SOS Dan are homogeneous in goal and method. Please recall the scene at the cafe in which Tachibana was upset because neither of the other two groups had a real interest in transferring the powers to Sasaki.

Of course, now that they know Haruhi is the true source of the time machine, they have to kill Haruhi, a much harder task.

Bzzt! You fail time travel logic. Haruhi has already spread the source equation, so trying to kill her in the present would do no good. Trying to kill her in the past would be doomed to failure without the logic-defying Haruhi-powers. Killing her at this point would do them no good, and it would be impossible in the past unless they already had her powers, in which case they wouldn't have a need to kill her.

Example?
I give you "run kid over with truck" by the Fujiwara group. You give me something worse. There is no evidence that Fujiwara kill less people than Mikuru. You just THINK they do.

True, there is no evidence that Mikuru's group would kill more people than Fujiwara's group. There is evidence, though, that they are willing to mindrape their own agents to keep them from giving away any information that would be inconvenient to spread. Remember my point about there not being a need to refuse to tell people about future events unless said people would prefer to avoid those events?

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-01, 14:21

But not Sasaki's time travelers. The van appeared to belong to Sasaki's Espers. It would be a mistake to think that the groups of the Anti-SOS Dan are homogeneous in goal and method. Please recall the scene at the cafe in which Tachibana was upset because neither of the other two groups had a real interest in transferring the powers to Sasaki.

Why would Tachibana's group want to kill a kid that later creates time travel?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-01, 14:47

Why would Tachibana's group want to kill a kid that later creates time travel?

History says they did?

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-01, 14:49

Why would Tachibana's group want to kill a kid that later creates time travel?

Because of what "sneering bastard" wanted; freedom from a pre-determined destiny. This is only possible if time travel does not exist, which in this case, require Haruhi's death, because she is the source of the time travel technology. They can kill scientists and burn research all they like, but as long as Haruhi hasn't been depowered and killed, her desire to cause time travelers to exist would cause it to happen.

Bzzt! You fail time travel logic. Haruhi has already spread the source equation, so trying to kill her in the present would do no good. Trying to kill her in the past would be doomed to failure without the logic-defying Haruhi-powers. Killing her at this point would do them no good, and it would be impossible in the past unless they already had her powers, in which case they wouldn't have a need to kill her.
The source equation could be destroyed, this is the advantage of having a time machine. But the ONE equation they can't destroy is in Haruhi's head. Hence, depowering her, killing her, and follow up with a cleansing of all documents leading to time travel in all time and space.

True, there is no evidence that Mikuru's group would kill more people than Fujiwara's group. There is evidence, though, that they are willing to mindrape their own agents to keep them from giving away any information that would be inconvenient to spread. Remember my point about there not being a need to refuse to tell people about future events unless said people would prefer to avoid those events?
Nothing suggest this is unique to Mikuru's group; as far as I am concerned, this is standard time travel safety protocol. I would expect no less for something as dangerous as time line protection.

You WANT information to be inconveniently spread? Does timeline chaos sound fun to you? You might as well claim it is a breach of freedoms to force doctors to wash their hands before performing surgery. Safety first.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-01, 14:58

*snip*

They can't actually kill Haruhi though. History says they didn't. Maybe.

Hence why they need to use her powers to do so, and the easiest way would be to transfer the powers to Sasaki, who they can control easily. Or so they think.

Nothing suggest this is unique to Mikuru's group; as far as I am concerned, this is standard time travel safety protocol. I would expect no less for something as dangerous as time line protection.

You WANT information to be inconveniently spread? Does timeline chaos sound fun to you? You might as well claim it is a breach of freedoms to force doctors to wash their hands before performing surgery. Safety first.

Brainwashing people =/= washing hands before surgery.

That's a bad analogy and I can't think of a better one, unfortunately.

Roger Rambo

2009-05-01, 15:58

Who else could it BE? It was Mikuru's mission to save the kid. The kid who was NOT suppose to be killed originally. Someone wanted to murder a child so time travel would never happen. That's Sasaki's people.
Ummm, you realize that people do occasionally die in car accidents, right? It is in fact one of the leading causes of death in modern urbanized societies. The fact that in order for the Future peoples history to happen Kyon had to keep the kid from being run over is not evidence that the Fujiwara group was trying to murder him.

And if the Fujiwara group really wanted to kill the kid in question, you gotta wonder why they they didn't turn around to finish the job. Or put a bomb in the truck. Or just have someone shoot him.

Of course, now that they know Haruhi is the true source of the time machine, they have to kill Haruhi, a much harder task.
Of course we don't have any evidence that they wanted to kill anyone in the first place aside from you jumping to conclusions.

Example?
I give you "run kid over with truck" by the Fujiwara group. You give me something worse. There is no evidence that Fujiwara kill less people than Mikuru. You just THINK they do.There's nothing in text to indicate that the Fujiwara group was trying to kill the kid in that specific incident. The basis for assuming that the Mikuru group has to do nasty things to meet their objectives is based on the following assumptions...

-Future people want history X to happen
-History X happening is reliant on Future people going into the past at certian events and committing acts that will ensure the future
-Given that their sole concern is for history X, whether or not an action will result in a positive, neutral, or negative outcome short term or long term will not be considered.
-So while good things and neutral things will be done, very negative things will also be done

So bassically the time travelers would have to do anything without regard for morality to ensure their future.

For example, if the Future peoples history did not include Guy Gabaldon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Gabaldon#The_Pied_Piper_of_Saipan) talking 1500 Japanese soldiers from surrendering and surviving to return home in WW2, the future people would have to ensure that Guy got shot on the first day.

True, there is no evidence that Mikuru's group would kill more people than Fujiwara's group. There is evidence, though, that they are willing to mindrape their own agents to keep them from giving away any information that would be inconvenient to spread. Remember my point about there not being a need to refuse to tell people about future events unless said people would prefer to avoid those events?We'd not see this because of Kyon's limited perspective. It's a logical conclusion. If your sole objective is maintaining your history, you're gonna do nasty things sometimes.
They can't actually kill Haruhi though. History says they didn't. Maybe.

Hence why they need to use her powers to do so, and the easiest way would be to transfer the powers to Sasaki, who they can control easily. Or so they think.

Where is the actual quote that indicates that anyone in the Anti SOS actually went out and tried to kill time travel kid?

Sute443

2009-05-01, 16:57

Because of what "sneering bastard" wanted; freedom from a pre-determined destiny. This is only possible if time travel does not exist, which in this case, require Haruhi's death, because she is the source of the time travel technology. They can kill scientists and burn research all they like, but as long as Haruhi hasn't been depowered and killed, her desire to cause time travelers to exist would cause it to happen.

Bzzt. They wouldn't need to kill her if she was depowered. If Sasaki had Haruhi's power then they could just have her say "No more time travel" and POOF, there would be no more time travel. She could change the nature of reality so that the equation no longer applies.

The source equation could be destroyed, this is the advantage of having a time machine. But the ONE equation they can't destroy is in Haruhi's head. Hence, depowering her, killing her, and follow up with a cleansing of all documents leading to time travel in all time and space.

Haruhi wrote the equation at random. She doesn't know what it is. There's absolutely no reason to believe that she would ever write it again. Furthermore, remember the part where the time travelers can mindrape people? Even if Sasaki (once endowed with Haruhi's powers) can't get rid of time travel with a thought, they could just make Haruhi forget the equation for added security.

Nothing suggest this is unique to Mikuru's group; as far as I am concerned, this is standard time travel safety protocol. I would expect no less for something as dangerous as time line protection.

You WANT information to be inconveniently spread? Does timeline chaos sound fun to you? You might as well claim it is a breach of freedoms to force doctors to wash their hands before performing surgery. Safety first.

You asked for where the evidence of Mikuru's group killing people was. Now I will ask: Where is the evidence of Fujiwara's group brainwashing their own people? Because it makes sense? It also makes sense that Mikuru's group sometimes has to kill people.

And you missed the point I was trying to make about the spread of information that would be inconvenient to the time travelers. If the spread of the information about the future amongst present-time allies would be inconvenient for the time travelers, it must be because said allies would try to change the future. Which they would only try if the future the time travelers are trying to bring about is not the desired future of their present-time allies. You cannot trust a time traveler who won't tell you what their time is like.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-01, 17:19

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-01, 20:00

And you missed the point I was trying to make about the spread of information that would be inconvenient to the time travelers. If the spread of the information about the future amongst present-time allies would be inconvenient for the time travelers, it must be because said allies would try to change the future. Which they would only try if the future the time travelers are trying to bring about is not the desired future of their present-time allies. You cannot trust a time traveler who won't tell you what their time is like.

You are assuming the worst than can happen with altered pasts is a few changed lives. You are worrying about "inconveniences". I worry about time-crash, and dimensional collapse.

If you ask me, I wouldn't TRUST a time-traveler who seemed hell bent on being helpful and don't give a damn about the consequences of each and every action he or she take. Mikuru-chan, as an under-qualified young kid, is already pushing believability until we realize she is only here to maintain a stable time loop of her own; that is, adult Mikuru was an important time traveler because of her past with Haruhi, hence the inexperienced young Mikuru was deliberately sent on a task she was ill prepared for.

Bzzt. They wouldn't need to kill her if she was depowered. If Sasaki had Haruhi's power then they could just have her say "No more time travel" and POOF, there would be no more time travel. She could change the nature of reality so that the equation no longer applies.

You are only partly right; they could avoid killing Haruhi after she is depowered, but only if they kill Kyon instead. If Kyon can shift power from Haruhi to Sakaki, he can switch it back. They can't take the risk. Either Kyon or Haruhi need to die to ensure Haruhi is permanently depowerd.
Killing Kyon, of course, means they have to kill Yuki too. But by having a deity Sasaki on their side, it should be easy...
Too easy. Before you know it, entire populations of people get wiped out from causality.

Roger Rambo

2009-05-01, 20:51

*snip*
...This is kinda heavy on conjecture. Really self righteous conjecture.

You realize of course, that they probably aren't going to try to kill Kyon or Haruhi. Given that Sasaki probably wouldn't like that and in this scenario she's just been elevated to not just god hood, but conscious godhood?

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-01, 21:49

...This is kinda heavy on conjecture. Really self righteous conjecture.

You realize of course, that they probably aren't going to try to kill Kyon or Haruhi. Given that Sasaki probably wouldn't like that and in this scenario she's just been elevated to not just god hood, but conscious godhood?

Then we are just going around in circles, with the Anti-SOS-dan trying to please every whim of their new god in order to get their own agenda through. That's not why they tried to depowerd Haruhi for.

Seriously, the Anti-SOS-dan are not nice people. They have demands. They are not together because they are friends, like what the SOS-dan is now, they are together for convenience. Sasaki is chosen because she is either easily manipulated, or don't care what they do. Either way, Sasaki is NOT going to be a leader if she gets godhood.

Roger Rambo

2009-05-01, 22:22

Then we are just going around in circles, with the Anti-SOS-dan trying to please every whim of their new god in order to get their own agenda through. That's not why they tried to depowerd Haruhi for.
Well objectively speaking, Sasaki doesn't seem to have to many whims...as of yet.

They are not together because they are friends, like what the SOS-dan is now, they are together for convenience.
In case you haven't noticed, the groups involved with the SOS-dan aren't on board because they're "friends". Even if all the people in the club are friends, that say's nothing about the groups represented.

Seriously, the Anti-SOS-dan are not nice people. They have demands.
None are the groups are likely to actually be nice. The only difference is that the organizations represented in the SOS dan have elected prettier representatives.

The only person in the series of any importance/power who we can be sure of being "good" are Haruhi and Kyon.

ijuinkun

2009-05-01, 23:48

The problem with this scenario is that very few people would allow a loved one to die over something trivial, so it's heavily biased in favor of keeping history unchanged.

"Trivial" is relative to the scale of things being dealt with. If somebody wanted to change history by say, going back to the 1760s and ensuring that the United States never existed (and thus preventing the births of any people whose existence is contingent on a successful American Revolution, perhaps because their parents would never have met if one had not immigrated to an independant USA), how many lives would it be worth to return history to what we know? A hundred? A thousand? How many Edith Keelers is it morally justifiable to kill in order to ensure that the Allies win the war?

To use an in-series parallel, Kyon refers to having nightmares over the supposed death of the timeline that Yuki had created in Disappearance. Can we say that he was morally justified in eradicating that timeline in order to restore the one that he remembered, or is it every bit as bad as if Haruhi had succeeded in destroyed the old world and made a new one at the end of Melancholy?

Never understood quantum physics. It's like they took every confusing aspect of science, put it in a single box, and labeled it.

What does it benefit a caveman, or even Newton himself, to understand the nature of subatomic particles beyond basic chemistry? There is no evolutionary advantage in such knowledge until after your society has discovered how to manipulate either electricity or radioactivity, since until then a human can't do a bloody thing that would make such things as subatomic-scale uncertainty affect the results detectably. Same thing goes with relativity--if the fastest motion that you have to account for is that of a bullet, and the only gravity fields are Earth, Moon, and Sun, then who cares what happens at light speed or ultra gravity, since the much simpler Newtonian equations are accurate to one part in several million for normal use.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 00:03

In case you haven't noticed, the groups involved with the SOS-dan aren't on board because they're "friends". Even if all the people in the club are friends, that say's nothing about the groups represented.

They weren't friends before, but they ARE now. The SOS-dan is now its own separate entity, above and beyond the factions the members came from. This was the entire purpose of all the novels since Book 2.

The Anti-SOS-dan, however, exist solely to destroy SOS-dan. That is the only point they have. After that, things will go crazy. But death of Haruhi, Kyon, or both,. would be on the agenda somewhere.

Can we say that he was morally justified in eradicating that timeline in order to restore the one that he remembered, or is it every bit as bad as if Haruhi had succeeded in destroyed the old world and made a new one at the end of Melancholy?
The logic here, is that by restoring timelines to what he remembered, Kyon is killing people who never lived originally. The moral line is blurred, but the idea is that he is restoring what originally happened rather than making changes. It might be nearly the same, but there is a difference.

ijuinkun

2009-05-02, 00:29

The logic here, is that by restoring timelines to what he remembered, Kyon is killing people who never lived originally. The moral line is blurred, but the idea is that he is restoring what originally happened rather than making changes. It might be nearly the same, but there is a difference.

Likewise, Mikuru's faction are trying to maintain what to them is the "original" timeline against changes that are being introduced by others. From their perspective, a pivotal change to the timeline would be the same as replacing the world with an alternate version, and anything done to remove the change would to them be the same as Kyon's restoration in Disappearance.

Something that we may be overlooking here is the notion that the time travelers, as things stand, have no free will. When it comes to any event that Mikuru must participate in to ensure that her personal past comes to be, she may be as incapable of altering things as a bullet is capable of altering its own flight--the time loop is forced to be stable because Haruhi's concept of time travel demands that grandfather paradoxes not be allowed to remain unresolved. If, for example, Mikuru were required to have pushed Hakase-kun into the path of the car instead of saving him, then it would happen regardless of her actual desire to do so--even if she tried to run away from the time and place of the incident, she would somehow end up there and do it.

Recall the tale of the man who saw Death in the marketplace and ran away to another town to escape, only to die in the other town, where his death had been fore-ordained all along.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 01:00

Something that we may be overlooking here is the notion that the time travelers, as things stand, have no free will.

This is the point. Haruhi breaks consistency. Haruhi is FREE WILL INCARNATE.

No one else has free will.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 01:04

Likewise, Mikuru's faction are trying to maintain what to them is the "original" timeline against changes that are being introduced by others. From their perspective, a pivotal change to the timeline would be the same as replacing the world with an alternate version, and anything done to remove the change would to them be the same as Kyon's restoration in Disappearance.

Something that we may be overlooking here is the notion that the time travelers, as things stand, have no free will. When it comes to any event that Mikuru must participate in to ensure that her personal past comes to be, she may be as incapable of altering things as a bullet is capable of altering its own flight--the time loop is forced to be stable because Haruhi's concept of time travel demands that grandfather paradoxes not be allowed to remain unresolved. If, for example, Mikuru were required to have pushed Hakase-kun into the path of the car instead of saving him, then it would happen regardless of her actual desire to do so--even if she tried to run away from the time and place of the incident, she would somehow end up there and do it.

Recall the tale of the man who saw Death in the marketplace and ran away to another town to escape, only to die in the other town, where his death had been fore-ordained all along.
No one is saying this is a good thing. What I am saying is that there is no proof the alternative would be any different. If the alternative is just different people living and dying, then the sticking point is what you do in order to get it. And my conclusion is that either Haruhi or Kyon would need to be murdered in order to remove time travel permanently. Any non-permanent changes would be ineffective.

So if the choice is between two timelines that aren't that different, except one with a dead Haruhi and one without a dead Haruhi, I pick the one without the dead Haruhi.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 01:06

And my conclusion is that either Haruhi or Kyon would need to be murdered in order to remove time travel permanently. Any non-permanent changes would be ineffective.

Bullshit. Sasaki (or Haruhi, if they could convince her to do it) would just have to will time travel nonexistent, and it would happen.

No one would remember. This is the extent of the Harupowers, that is, an unlimited one.

No one needs to die.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 01:26

Bullshit. Sasaki (or Haruhi, if they could convince her to do it) would just have to will time travel nonexistent, and it would happen.

No one would remember. This is the extent of the Harupowers, that is, an unlimited one.

No one needs to die.

If they can convince Sasaki to remove time travelers, what else could they convince her to do?

Do the Anti-SOS-dan seem like the type to stop there?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 01:40

If they can convince Sasaki to remove time travelers, what else could they convince her to do?

Do the Anti-SOS-dan seem like the type to stop there?

Sasaki wouldn't kill Kyon. Haruhi maybe, but not Kyon.

Of course, all she would have to do would be to rewrite the universe so that Kyon is desperately in love with her. Wouldn't even need to kill Haruhi.

Don't forget that, at a certain point, Sasaki will be the one in control, not the Anti-SOS.

Unless she pulls a Doc Manhattan and does what people tell her to do regardless of the fact that she can will them into nonexistence.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 01:50

Sasaki wouldn't kill Kyon. Haruhi maybe, but not Kyon.

Of course, all she would have to do would be to rewrite the universe so that Kyon is desperately in love with her. Wouldn't even need to kill Haruhi.

Don't forget that, at a certain point, Sasaki will be the one in control, not the Anti-SOS.

Unless she pulls a Doc Manhattan and does what people tell her to do regardless of the fact that she can will them into nonexistence.

You are assuming the other members of Anti-SOS-dan would WANT to follow Sasaki's orders. As far as I can tell, she was chosen because she might be a better puppet than Haruhi. Whether Sasaki would allow herself to be a puppet or not is the question; and more importantly, what contingency plan would the anti-SOS-dan have to make sure Sasaki will do as they say.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 01:57

Whether Sasaki would allow herself to be a puppet or not is the question; and more importantly, what contingency plan would the anti-SOS-dan have to make sure Sasaki will do as they say.

It's... difficult to make contingency plans against something that can erase you and all memory of you, and KNOWS that it can erase you and all memory of you.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 02:10

It's... difficult to make contingency plans against something that can erase you and all memory of you, and KNOWS that it can erase you and all memory of you.

All the more reason for the Anti-SOS-dan to make sure Sasaki doesn't get to be anything more than a puppet. Hence, one way or another somebody is going to get hurt.
There IS a plan. They aren't stupid. For the anti-SOS-dan, to have Sasaki out of their control is no better than keeping Haruhi where she is.

The only issue is if the plan would work or not.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 02:18

Somehow I don't think Sasaki is going to consent to being a puppet.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 02:23

Somehow I don't think Sasaki is going to consent to being a puppet.

And the Anti-SOS-dan members are not going to give her the consent of being free to do as she pleases, because otherwise it would be the same as before with Haruhi.

Sasaki is either going to be a puppet god, or the anti-SOS-dan would be destroyed by Sasaki for trying to force her into submission. There is no middle ground here

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 02:31

How exactly do you control a physical god, though? That's my question.

It's not like with Haruhi, who isn't aware of what she is. Sasaki is fully aware of what she might well become.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 02:33

How exactly do you control a physical god, though? That's my question.

It's not like with Haruhi, who isn't aware of what she is. Sasaki is fully aware of what she might well become.

If the Anti-SOS-dan didn't think they have a way, there would have been no point depowering Haruhi.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 02:35

If the Anti-SOS-dan didn't think they have a way, there would have been no point depowering Haruhi.

That proves nothing.

For that matter, Kuyoh and Fujiwara are just fine keeping the power in the hands of Haruhi. It's only Kyoko who really wants to transfer the power over, and that's because she believes that Sasaki "should be" god.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 02:42

That proves nothing.

For that matter, Kuyoh and Fujiwara are just fine keeping the power in the hands of Haruhi. It's only Kyoko who really wants to transfer the power over, and that's because she believes that Sasaki "should be" god.

"Should", but in what way?
Sasaki is so far entirely neutral about the anti-SOS-dan. She would not care one bit what they do. And that alone already gives them freedom to shape the world in the way they feel fit. But the fact remain that Sasaki will be an even bigger threat than Haruhi if she is fully powered without having a leash attached.

Sasaki can change her mind from where she stands now, it is her right. But that right would be dangerous to the Anti-SOS-dan. The fact that they are still doing this, proves that they have something up their sleeve. Anything less would be stupidity.
Remember, safety first.

Ithekro

2009-05-02, 02:55

Just because she is aware that she has a power, does not mean she'll be able to use it effectively. If Yuki can take that power from Haruhi, so too can her rival from an underpowered Sasaki.

As for Mikuru and her group, didn't they state they had some form of non-interference policy? Mikuru couldn't directly save the boy...Kyon was the one that saved the boy. Mikuru's time travelers might be able to direct people to places, but they don't seem to have the will to act directly, nor say what will happen exactly. (Mikuru didn't know until after Kyon saved the boy who the boy was and that he needed to live).

It is also possible that the future is not set like the time travelers would thing. Mikuru(small) has been surprised too many times (and I think Mikuru(BIG) has once as well) by events which they say after the fact, must have been meant to happen. This suggests to me that the time traveler's time period is in constant flux and that what we get in the present is just what the time traveler would know up to when they left. The only advantage Mikuru actually has is that she is effectively in two places at once (one in the present and one in other times). This gives her a slight advantage as her past self is living in the "present" and thus her future self will know what her past self did to some extent. However she may be fixed because of Mikuru(small) being in the present, while everything else changes. To the time travelers (and by extention Kyon) time is fixed...but maybe it isn't...it just seems that way from their point of view.

To take a different sci-fi angle, there is "Quantum Leap" where time is supposedly fixed and yet changes each time Sam Beckett enters a new person's time and body. "Setting right what once went wrong"...is that correcting time by changing the past, or making sure it happens like it is suppose to happen?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 03:04

Just because she is aware that she has a power, does not mean she'll be able to use it effectively. If Yuki can take that power from Haruhi, so too can her rival from an underpowered Sasaki.

I don't think you're quite understanding what it means to be omnipotent.

As for Mikuru and her group, didn't they state they had some form of non-interference policy? Mikuru couldn't directly save the boy...Kyon was the one that saved the boy. Mikuru's time travelers might be able to direct people to places, but they don't seem to have the will to act directly, nor say what will happen exactly. (Mikuru didn't know until after Kyon saved the boy who the boy was and that he needed to live).

This is more Mikuru not being told things she probably should be told. But isn't because she hadn't been told that. If that makes sense.

*snip*

No, every event in Haruhi is predetermined. Big Mikuru is only out of her league when she's experiencing things her younger self didn't. Of course she'd be surprised. She has no clue what's going to happen.

Mikuru, of course, is out of her league all the time, because her superiors never tell her anything.

The ultimate proof that events are predetermined, though, is the Data Overmind's ability to synch with future versions of itself. If the future wasn't completely stable, this would not be possible.

This is why Yuki refuses to synch after Vol. 4: She wants to pretend she has free will.

"Setting right what once went wrong"...is that correcting time by changing the past, or making sure it happens like it is suppose to happen?

Both.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-02, 03:17

This is why Yuki refuses to synch after Vol. 4: She wants to pretend she has free will.

Except she only refused because she remembers being refused.

Ithekro

2009-05-02, 03:22

The Data Overmind is outside of time-space. Linear time may not mean all that much to them when not forced into humanoid bodies. Also being able to sync is just proof that one will still exist, not that time isn't fluid.

ijuinkun

2009-05-02, 03:50

I don't think you're quite understanding what it means to be omnipotent.

Omnipotence does not imply omniscience. Haruhi can rewrite the world, but even if she was aware that she was doing it, she couldn't grasp the details of exactly what was changing and how any more than when you move your arm you are aware of what each cell and molecule is doing inside of it. She would know what results she got, but it would take Yuki-level data awareness to describe it as more than "I wanted it to happen, so it happened". Note her creation of the time travel equation without realizing what it meant beyond a possible vague awareness that it would make time travel possible.

This is the point. Haruhi breaks consistency. Haruhi is FREE WILL INCARNATE.

No one else has free will.

Or rather, free will exists on Haruhi's suffrage--she alone grants it. Kyon might be granted free will as well, given that he is capable of doing things that seem to surprise Haruhi.

Likewise, if Haruhi wanted to create a supervillain to battle, and gave said villain a backstory involving lots of murders, then said murders existed by Haruhi's will. Debating the moral culpability of people with no free will is rather like asking whether the bullet is to blame for whom it strikes. Haruhi is the one pulling all of the triggers here.

***

Anyway, to get onto another sub-topic, I would like to plant my own epileptic tree (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees) in regards to the anti-SOS-dan. Namely, that they exist because Haruhi desired an arch-rival whom she could think of as being on "equal terms" with herself, which resulted in an analogue of the SOS-dan being created around Kyon's "old girlfriend", Sasaki, who thus became Haruhi's own opposite member. In essence, Haruhi wanted an anti-Haruhi, so that she could be a heroine by thwarting said arch-enemy.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-02, 03:54

Anyway, to get onto another sub-topic, I would like to plant my own epileptic tree (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees) in regards to the anti-SOS-dan. Namely, that they exist because Haruhi desired an arch-rival whom she could think of as being on "equal terms" with herself, which resulted in an analogue of the SOS-dan being created around Kyon's "old girlfriend", Sasaki, who thus became Haruhi's own opposite member. In essence, Haruhi wanted an anti-Haruhi, so that she could be a heroine by thwarting said arch-enemy.

No offense, but that theory has been around for years. :heh:

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 04:25

Likewise, if Haruhi wanted to create a supervillain to battle, and gave said villain a backstory involving lots of murders, then said murders existed by Haruhi's will. Debating the moral culpability of people with no free will is rather like asking whether the bullet is to blame for whom it strikes. Haruhi is the one pulling all of the triggers here.

This only holds true until Haruhi is depowered, at which point the Anti-SOS-dan would have to take responsibility for their own actions after that.

Roger Rambo

2009-05-02, 06:05

Omnipotence does not imply omniscience. Haruhi can rewrite the world, but even if she was aware that she was doing it, she couldn't grasp the details of exactly what was changing and how any more than when you move your arm you are aware of what each cell and molecule is doing inside of it. She would know what results she got, but it would take Yuki-level data awareness to describe it as more than "I wanted it to happen, so it happened". Note her creation of the time travel equation without realizing what it meant beyond a possible vague awareness that it would make time travel possible.
Except that was a case of someone who had the power and didn't know about it. All the factions involved probably don't know the exact extent of the powers potential in the hands of a conscious human, so they probably aren't going to risk anything assuming they do.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 09:34

Except that was a case of someone who had the power and didn't know about it. All the factions involved probably don't know the exact extent of the powers potential in the hands of a conscious human, so they probably aren't going to risk anything assuming they do.

Knowing the nature of living things though, the ant-SOS-dan probably DO think they know what they are getting themselves into, and assume they can come out on top.

That doesn't mean their assumption would be right; Sasaki's first order or business after becoming God, might well be the complete annihilation of everyone who has anything to do with the Anti-SOS-dan. This worst-case scenario must have been brought up by someone, at some stage.

There must be a fail-safe installed in the plan. The question isn't of the fail-safe's existence, for it MUST exist. The question is, if it is any good against a self-aware omnipotent being.

And no one knows the answer to that.

One way or another, a benign co-existence between the Anti-SOS-dan faction and a fully powered Sasaki goddess is impossible. One has to assert power over the other. Sasaki might well leave Anti-SOS-dan alone, but the Anti-sos-dan is not so trusting.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-02, 09:55

Alternatively, she could just use the powers to remove them from existence(the powers, not the Anti-SOS Brigade :heh:)

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 10:09

Alternatively, she could just use the powers to remove them from existence(the powers, not the Anti-SOS Brigade :heh:)

Now you are just getting metaphysical. Can an omnipotent being undo its own omnipotence? This is a classic theological argument.
There is even a slight danger that an omnipotent being could be the only thing holding the fabrics of space time together, and the deletion of the Power can unsettle the existence of life, the universe, and everything. That's what's at risk when dealing with the unknown.

Of course, even if, IF, it could work, first you have to convince Sasaki into removing her own powers. But how the HELL are you going to do that?:heh:

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-02, 10:19

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 10:25

ijuinkun

2009-05-02, 12:08

Any plan to stop Sasaki probably involves striking faster than she can react--for example, shooting her with a tranquilizer and then keeping her in a drugged stupor or completely unconscious.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 12:47

Any plan to stop Sasaki probably involves striking faster than she can react--for example, shooting her with a tranquilizer and then keeping her in a drugged stupor or completely unconscious.

The question is, would this trick work on Haruhi? And if it does, why haven't they done this already?

And if it doesn't work on Haruhi, how would it work on Sasaki?

Frankly, I am expecting the fail-safe to involve something difficult to describe, which would involve the Data-manipulation similar to what Yuki used to steal Haruhi's power. But probably with more complicated details that require a time traveller's tech and even Esper assistance.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-02, 12:50

So... you're saying their plan is to have Kyon transfer the powers to Sasaki, then have Kuyoh siphon them off?

Roger Rambo

2009-05-02, 12:54

I think this entire discussion has been overcome with wild conjecture based on personal preferences...

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-02, 12:56

Isn't that how most discussions here turn out? :heh:

PastPrime

2009-05-02, 13:04

Ummm, you realize that people do occasionally die in car accidents, right? It is in fact one of the leading causes of death in modern urbanized societies. The fact that in order for the Future peoples history to happen Kyon had to keep the kid from being run over is not evidence that the Fujiwara group was trying to murder him.

When you see people in a van dilibertly try to run over a kid who will develope Time Travel theory and then, a few weeks later, people in the SAME VAN kidnap Mikuru, it is only logical to assume that they are the same people.

Likewise, Mikuru's faction are trying to maintain what to them is the "original" timeline against changes that are being introduced by others. From their perspective, a pivotal change to the timeline would be the same as replacing the world with an alternate version, and anything done to remove the change would to them be the same as Kyon's restoration in Disappearance.

Something that we may be overlooking here is the notion that the time travelers, as things stand, have no free will. When it comes to any event that Mikuru must participate in to ensure that her personal past comes to be, she may be as incapable of altering things as a bullet is capable of altering its own flight--the time loop is forced to be stable because Haruhi's concept of time travel demands that grandfather paradoxes not be allowed to remain unresolved. If, for example, Mikuru were required to have pushed Hakase-kun into the path of the car instead of saving him, then it would happen regardless of her actual desire to do so--even if she tried to run away from the time and place of the incident, she would somehow end up there and do it.

Recall the tale of the man who saw Death in the marketplace and ran away to another town to escape, only to die in the other town, where his death had been fore-ordained all along.

If you notice though, Mikuru, as a Time Traveler, is either unable or not allowed to make changes even to restore the Time Line. She always has to have Kyon do it.

Roger Rambo

2009-05-02, 13:13

When you see people in a van dilibertly try to run over a kid who will develope Time Travel theory and then, a few weeks later, people in the SAME VAN kidnap Mikuru, it is only logical to assume that they are the same people.
Was it described as being the same van? Give me a quote.

I'm not going to buy into this theory unless we get some actual in text citation here.

quigonkenny

2009-05-02, 13:17

Sasaki really isn't all that interested in getting the powers in the first place. If they would cause problems for her, she'd most likely get rid of them in whatever way she can, whether it be somehow transferring them back to Haruhi or just outright removing them. Or A God Am I (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AGodAmI) could kick in and she'd enslave everyone. Hard to say from only one story. :heh:

And really, we don't know... And from the Anti-SOS-dan perspective, they must have planned for the worst case scenario. But that also would mean they could well be forming a self-fulfilling prophecy and create the worst-case scenario as a result, as their protective measures could be viewed to Sasaki as a personal threat.

Who's to say that Sasaki nullifying the powers completely is the worst case scenario for the Dark SOS-dan? How do we know that isn't their plan in the first place? As Kogetsu noted, she's the kind of person who wouldn't have much problem doing so. It'd certainly make things easier for her. And it may make things better for the other members as well.

If "Fujiwara" is so bent upon "gaining free will" by "destroying time travel", what better way than to remove the Haruhi Power from existence if that power is what enables time travel to be possible? Removing her ability to affect things is certainly a better idea than hoping that a powered Sasaki goes along with "allowing" events to unfold in acertain way, espectially if some of them are of questionable morality, as some have suggested.

The theory goes that the Espers, time travelers, and aliens exist only because Haruhi willed them to, but that's just what Itsuki suggests, and he's not exactly a unbiased (or omniscient) point of view. What if they all already existed and Haruhi just called them to her? What if the Canopy Domain already existed, but the Data Overmind was created by Haruhi? The Data Overmind's facility with creating humanoid interfaces is a bit too convenient, from a "let's meet aliens and play with them" perspective. You'd think there'd be an acclimatization period, like we seem to see Kuyoh going through, and that we didn't see in 3ya!Yuki. Should Sasaki remove the Power from existence and take the Data Overmind with it, that might make things easier for the Canopy Domain.

I can't think of why Tachibana would want to lose powers (or not gain new ones). Maybe "Fujiwara" and Kuyoh are leading her along.

I think this entire discussion has been overcome with wild conjecture based on personal preferences...

Oh, you're one to talk...

EDIT:Was it described as being the same van? Give me a quote.

I'm not going to buy into this theory unless we get some actual in text citation here.

From the Baka-Tsuki page for Volume 7, chapter 6, about halfway down:
My gaze remains fixed on the rear of that teal minivan. It was the same car as the one last time. The exact same model as the one that nearly ran down the Bespectacled Boy last month. There's no mistake about it. The guys on that car were from a different world from ours.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-05-02, 13:26

Who's to say that Sasaki nullifying the powers completely is the worst case scenario for the Dark SOS-dan? How do we know that isn't their plan in the first place? As Kogetsu noted, she's the kind of person who wouldn't have much problem doing so. It'd certainly make things easier for her. And it may make things better for the other members as well.
You are assuming Sasaki would be so kind as to nullify the 3 faction's powers while keeping them alive.

The easiest way to depower the three factions is to kill them all. And that IS the worst case scenario. If your worst case scenario assume Sasaki would be merciful as a goddess, it isn't the worst one.
Don't have any opposition to the rest of your posts, though.

By the way, my entire theory up to now is revolving around the fact that there had been a murder attempt on the supposed creator of time travel. This isn't done randomly; it was to serve a goal. Assuming the goal remained, then Haruhi's disclosure to the local area of her time travel theory in the publication would mean the original assassins HAVE to now target Haruhi or abandon their mission. Naturally Haruhi would be hard to kill, but that's what the anti-SOS-dan teamup is for...

Ithekro

2009-05-02, 13:28

You know, this might be the exact reason why Book 10 isn't out yet. How do you work all that out?

Roger Rambo

2009-05-02, 13:58

From the Baka-Tsuki page for Volume 7, chapter 6, about halfway down:
Alright, you're right.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 16:47

By the way, my entire theory up to now is revolving around the fact that there had been a murder attempt on the supposed creator of time travel. This isn't done randomly; it was to serve a goal. Assuming the goal remained, then Haruhi's disclosure to the local area of her time travel theory in the publication would mean the original assassins HAVE to now target Haruhi or abandon their mission. Naturally Haruhi would be hard to kill, but that's what the anti-SOS-dan teamup is for...

Hard to kill, if not impossible.

Not even the espers know if she CAN be killed. I doubt it, personally.

Besides, as has been said before, what purpose would killing Haruhi serve? The information is already in the hands of Bespectacled Boy. You'd have to kill him AND Haruhi, in order to prevent time travel from occurring.

And even then, who's to say it wouldn't be invented by someone else?

Omnipotence does not imply omniscience. Haruhi can rewrite the world, but even if she was aware that she was doing it, she couldn't grasp the details of exactly what was changing and how any more than when you move your arm you are aware of what each cell and molecule is doing inside of it. She would know what results she got, but it would take Yuki-level data awareness to describe it as more than "I wanted it to happen, so it happened". Note her creation of the time travel equation without realizing what it meant beyond a possible vague awareness that it would make time travel possible.

She doesn't need to be omniscient to use her power, otherwise, she'd be effectively powerless.

Her powers take care of all the little details like data manipulation for her.

All she has to do is think "I want everyone who could ever be a threat to me to die" and they'll all die. She's that ridiculously powerful. That is what it means to be GOD.

You know, this might be the exact reason why Book 10 isn't out yet. How do you work all that out?

If I recall correctly, Book 10 was supposed to come out two months after Book 9.

There's no way Tanigawa could write even a light novel in only two months.

Ergo, the book was delayed for reasons other than writer's block. A possible reason is that he wasn't satisfied with it, though.

You're probably wondering where I'm going with this. I don't really know myself.

Alright, you're right.

Though that doesn't mean it was the time travelers behind it. The van in Vol. 7 appeared to have only been driven by the espers, since Fujiwara was the only one who escaped, due to time travel granting him effective teleportation.

Nappy Hared Azn

2009-05-02, 17:04

I saw a sudden surge in activity and I thought the release date for Volume 10 had been announced or something.

I hate you guys . . .

dragon4dudes

2009-05-02, 17:05

Zantetsuken

2009-05-02, 18:03

I saw a sudden surge in activity and I thought the release date for Volume 10 had been announced or something.

I hate you guys . . .

Same here.

Are there not even a new rumor about vol 10?

Ithekro

2009-05-02, 18:56

Sasaki might have a different problem. God-like powers or no, it may take time to get use to using them. While Haruhi uses them unknowingly, it may be a difficult matter to try to use them directly. Sasaki's mind may not be suited to handle something on the order of "change this, the pieces will fall into place, don't bother me with the details" sort of changes Haruhi does. If she is thinking about the changes they might not work correctly since she might not have that "heaven may care" style and instead try to do the "hands on" approach that requires one to fill in every last detail.

Also if she can't control it at first, her group might be able to take it from her, or control her rather than her being the god of the universe, she is the pawn of the universe...the tool of the new gods, where as the SOS-dan is more the followers that clean up gods messes or keep god pleased so that she doesn't do something rash, type.

Baru

2009-05-02, 19:04

http://www.hachettebookgroup.com/features/haruhi/prose.html

Non-finalized version of Sigh's paperback cover is out, as well as their description

wittyusername

2009-05-02, 19:11

I hope they do a hardcover release again. I really would rather have pretty Noizi Ito art than pukey orange whatsit all over a paperback.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-02, 21:12

Sasaki might have a different problem. God-like powers or no, it may take time to get use to using them. While Haruhi uses them unknowingly, it may be a difficult matter to try to use them directly. Sasaki's mind may not be suited to handle something on the order of "change this, the pieces will fall into place, don't bother me with the details" sort of changes Haruhi does. If she is thinking about the changes they might not work correctly since she might not have that "heaven may care" style and instead try to do the "hands on" approach that requires one to fill in every last detail.

I have a theory that one of the reasons Haruhi is the way she is, is because of the Harupowers. But that's really neither here nor there.

Sasaki might change when she gets them, either as a side effect, or just the usual WAHAHAHA THE POWER OH GOD THE POWER

I hope they do a hardcover release again. I really would rather have pretty Noizi Ito art than pukey orange whatsit all over a paperback.

I actually like the paperback covers. At least this way I can buy them and read them in public without people staring.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-05-02, 22:46

Sasaki might change when she gets them, either as a side effect, or just the usual WAHAHAHA THE POWER OH GOD THE POWER

In other words, A God Am I (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AGodAmI).

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-03, 01:57

In other words, A God Am I (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AGodAmI).

I prefer WAHAHAHA THE POWER OH GOD THE POWER, but yeah.

quigonkenny

2009-05-03, 02:27

I prefer WAHAHAHA THE POWER OH GOD THE POWER, but yeah.

What if it were all in caps, with some laughing and some superfluous punctuation, like this:

MWA HA HA HA HA...A GOD AM I (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AGodAmI)!!!!!!

Better?

Although it probably is a good idea to avoid clicking the link. TVTropes.org has an average timetheft rating of 7.5 WpU (Wikipedia Units). Not a good idea to visit if you have anything else you need to do in the next day or two.

As for the Sigh info, once again I click over expecting The xxxx of Haruhi Suzumiya only to find The Fail of Haruhi Softcover... There best be a hardcover, or they will rue the day. Rue it, I tell you...!

**shakes fist**

M.Marangio

2009-05-03, 02:34

I hope they do a hardcover release again. I really would rather have pretty Noizi Ito art than pukey orange whatsit all over a paperback.

There are two ISBN floating around. The official site (http://www.hachettebookgroup.com/teens_books_9780316038799.htm) has only the paperback version (ISBN 9780316038799 / ISBN 0316038792), amazon.com and other book shops also the hardcover version (ISBN 9780316038812 / ISBN 0316038814).

Kaisos Erranon

2009-05-03, 03:10

What if it were all in caps, with some laughing and some superfluous punctuation, like this:

MWA HA HA HA HA...A GOD AM I (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AGodAmI)!!!!!!

Better?

Eh, I still prefer WAHAHAHA THE POWER OH GOD THE POWER.

Never liked that trope name anyway. Never got the reference.

Although it probably is a good idea to avoid clicking the link. TVTropes.org has an average timetheft rating of 7.5 WpU (Wikipedia Units). Not a good idea to visit if you have anything else you need to do in the next day or two.

This is why I take the time to memorize the definitions of popular tropes, so I never have to click on them again! I am free!

WAHAHAHA THE POWER OH GOD THE POWER

As for the Sigh info, once again I click over expecting The xxxx of Haruhi Suzumiya only to find The Fail of Haruhi Softcover... There best be a hardcover, or they will rue the day. Rue it, I tell you...!

**shakes fist**

There will be a hardcover, I'm sure.

And I really do like the softcovers. They're at least trying to be creative.

On a side note, I really really love how the descriptions are making Haruhi out to be the main character. I know they're not doing it intentionally, but it's like they're extending what the novel titles are trying to do. If anyone gets what I mean.

It's like. In most anime with lots of pretty girls, the focus is inevitably on said girls. But in Haruhi... the focus is entirely on Kyon. It's great.

Also, can anyone get me a nice-sized pic of the first novel's softcover, er, cover? I wanna make an avatar out of the thundercloud logo.