Archer - discuss Ep. 14 hints

[kj1980]

Rareness is indeed as few characters in anime can create as much discussion in the coolness and mystery of this muscular, dark-skinned, yet sexy person.

Some may say that his identity was revealed in this episode. Others may say that it was not explicitly so - that only subtle hints were laid out. In either case, clues are revealed in this episode which indirectly leads to the answer of his true identity.

I'm going to leave this thread open. If this thread goes down the waste hole into trolling and member bashing, this thread will be closed.

Otherwise - let's see how this thread can "mature." EMPHASIS ON MATURE.

[Nightengale]

The whole hints/fore-shadowing is a subject of oddity. It doesn't apply similarly to everyone, as everyone has their own way of percieving stuff. Take Mai-Hime for example, as a rabid fan of G.E.A.R Dendoh, I knew where the inspiration for Mai, Natsuki and Natsuki's child came from. C-Drive and White Lion Drive. But not everyone knows of it. Same goes to Sarah Gallargah of Otome.

The whole Archer/gem thing. A lot say that it automatically points to *insert name of thought*, but it can't always be interpreted as such. Those who look closer to details can argue that [Shirou's body never absorbed the gem and simply it's magical powers, and that it's not likely that Shirou is Archer but rather related. Those who are less skeptical about details will just point out stuff like Shirou and Rin's dad.

The game players know more detail about the hero's realm differing from timelines, but anime watchers don't know about it. They may not imagine the possibility that heroes summoned may be one from the future, be it a gun weilding archer or even a lightsaber weilding Saber.

Take myself for example. Had I not played the game. And had not they point out all those flashbacks, I would've assumed a few possibilities for Archer.

1. Shirou's dad.
2. Rin's dad.

[MakubeX2]

The only explicit way to resolve who Archer really was is to get

Shirou to do his chants and initilate UBW on his own

[Tekkaman Zero]

Archer is the Chuck Norris of Fate/saty night ;)

about his identity:

http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/1710/1144507428221.jpg

[Nightengale]

about his identity:

http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/1710/1144507428221.jpg

Shouldn't he be donning military uniform with a sniper at his post-teenage years?

[Kasz]

Well from what the anime showed us the first thing that came to my mind was that he was Rin's dad. After I watched it again and paid more attention to the words he was saying it came to me he could be Shirou. So it may not be exactly clear cut but it's not that hidden either, a good twist I must say though. Well that's who I think he is :P

[RedFrame]

The other clues that i gues not everyone realize is ...

something that will ony lead us to shirou --->
Archer calling ilya so formally( like someone he already well known) that even makes ilya herseft surprised..

[Sorrow-K]

Ahaha my incessant bitching got a new thread made.

Anyway, I really had no idea who it was, but among my speculations were Shirou's father.... which was about as close as I got.But I never for a moment could have imagined that he was atime paradox.It's a good twist, and I really regret having it spoiled... but I'd best not get hung up on it, since that's not what this thread is about.

[Shiroth]

There's isn't a time pardox here, servants have been brought all over from the past & future.

Say if Archer killed Shirou, nothing would happen to Archer.

[kamikazex]

Ahaha my incessant bitching got a new thread made.

Anyway, I really had no idea who it was, but among my speculations were Shirou's father.... which was about as close as I got.But I never for a moment could have imagined that he was atime paradox.It's a good twist, and I really regret having it spoiled... but I'd best not get hung up on it, since that's not what this thread is about.

damn dood..
pretty much the same as you
first thing that came to my mind was..it must be shirou's dad

i wanted to know pretty bad so i pretty much just spoiled it for myself
i really regret having it spoiled it lol
but this series will still kick ass

[PastPrime]

Just a thought on Archer's motivation.Perhaps he came back with the intention of changing the outcome. I can imagine Shirou losing in the war and losing the person or persons most important to him, perhaps with Illya making him her servant until he gained his powers. Archer's purpose was to protect Rin and to guide Shirou until he had the power to protect Rin. To make him realise that you can't save everyone, but you have to save those important to you.

[MakubeX2]

Just a thought on Archer's motivation.Perhaps he came back with the intention of changing the outcome. I can imagine Shirou losing in the war and losing the person or persons most important to him, perhaps with Illya making him her servant until he gained his powers. Archer's purpose was to protect Rin and to guide Shirou until he had the power to protect Rin. To make him realise that you can't save everyone, but you have to save those important to you.

Truth is :-

He had willingly become a Servant to the Grail in hope that he can live up to his ideals with the powers that Servants have.

But before long, he found out that reality sucks and most of the Masters he had serve does not share his visons and he had to obey the dirtiest of orders. Soon after, he regrets his decison to become a Servant and waited for a chance to get summoned by Rin to set things right by killing Shirou in a attempt to erase his own existence, which is evident in UBW path of the game. Since Servants and humans live in a alternate reality, there isn't any proof about whether such efforts will bear fruitations. But Archer is willing to take even the slightest chance at it, such is how he loath his own exsitence as a Servant.

[Freakman]

Makubex : you may want to label that as "Complete game spoiler" ? :D

[Village Idiot]

Truth is :-

He had willingly become a Servant to the Grail in hope that he can live up to his ideals with the powers that Servants have.

But before long, he found out that reality sucks and most of the Masters he had serve does not share his visons and he had to obey the dirtiest of orders. Soon after, he regrets his decison to become a Servant and waited for a chance to get summoned by Rin to set things right by killing Shirou in a attempt to erase his own existence, which is evident in UBW path of the game. Since Servants and humans live in a alternate reality, there isn't any proof about whether such efforts will bear fruitations. But Archer is willing to take even the slightest chance at it, such is how he loath his own exsitence as a Servant.

Archer also realised in UBW that killing Shirou wouldn't make any difference, because the Shirou from UBW would not lead to Archer. Archer just wanted to spare Shirou the pain and regret he will face if he continued walking the same path that he did.

But Shirou in UBW knew and understood fully well what the reality he had chosen might lead to, but he has accepted it, because it is what he believes in.

They are different people.

[studiocode]

I'm wondering if Archer's sacrifice will go unacknowledged now...

I just so badly want Rin to realize that she summoned Shirou. I also want Saber to realize that Shirou becomes Archer so that way she will acknowledge his potential. However, nobody saw his moves or knows his name it's pretty much impossible for any of them to ever discover his identity. Rin, Shirou, and Saber will never know the tough life Archer chose and the reality of his sacrifices for them.

Servants are individuals who were ultra powerful/legendary heroes in real life, right? Does this mean that some time during Shirou's life he will become as powerful as his servant version? Or does he become the kick ass ultra cool hero we all love AFTER he becomes a servant? Because the only way anybody will connect Shirou to Archer is if he does one of Archer's moves in front of Ilya and she spills the beans. God, I'm so praying for this to happen...

Would Ilya have killed Archer if she knew who he was? (If there's a deeper relationship between Ilya and Shirou that hasn't been revealed yet plz spoiler tag any answer to this question and I'll go back and read it later)

[Bloodseeker]

http://fullmetal-archer.com/

[primalmx]

I'm wondering if Archer's sacrifice will go unacknowledged now...

I just so badly want Rin to realize that she summoned Shirou. I also want Saber to realize that Shirou becomes Archer so that way she will acknowledge his potential. However, nobody saw his moves or knows his name it's pretty much impossible for any of them to ever discover his identity. Rin, Shirou, and Saber will never know the tough life Archer chose and the reality of his sacrifices for them.

Servants are individuals who were ultra powerful/legendary heroes in real life, right? Does this mean that some time during Shirou's life he will become as powerful as his servant version? Or does he become the kick ass ultra cool hero we all love AFTER he becomes a servant? Because the only way anybody will connect Shirou to Archer is if he does one of Archer's moves in front of Ilya and she spills the beans. God, I'm so praying for this to happen...

Would Ilya have killed Archer if she knew who he was? (If there's a deeper relationship between Ilya and Shirou that hasn't been revealed yet plz spoiler tag any answer to this question and I'll go back and read it later)


I don't this his sacrifice will go unknowledged.... actually part of me has a sneaking suspicion that Rin knew Archer's identity....

~prime

[Ishun]

I'm a bit mad on myself for not finding out Archer's identity. >_>
I was trying to figure it out without reading the spoilers, tried to follow Js2756 tips:

So since some people are still having problems figuring out Archer's identity, here are some clues:

1) Refers to our lovable loli as "Ilya"
2) Can image items
3) Leaves behind a significant item after being killed (if you really want to find out who Archer is, watch the ending credits of this episode, then episode 2 again)
4) Knows a lot about Shirou and his powers, yet his total interaction with Shirou is limited to a few conversations

It isn't too hard to figure out Archer's identity when you put all the pieces of the puzzle together.

I saw ep 14 twice, then went back to ep 2 to find out more about the pendant but only watched the begining (which led me to think of Rin's father) and didn't watch the most important part, that was Rin ressurrecting Shirou with the help of the pendant. Maybe if I had watched it all I'd have figure it out. XD

[gammaoh]

I do think that Archer wouldn't have been able to kill Shirou in UBW even if he wanted to

Why? Because the simple fact that Archer exists means that he had already lost the fight. Because winning it would mean some kind of a non-existence, which is intelligently mentionned here as a time paradox.

If you could travel back to the past. And kill yourself, would you succeed?

The fact that you managed to kill yourself means you've lived up to the age during which you decided the killing. But if you've managed to do the killing, you wouldn't have lived up to that point and decided to do it. Hence the fact that you can't have killed yourself...

Did anyone get what I meant?

[Village Idiot]

I do think that Archer wouldn't have been able to kill Shirou in UBW even if he wanted to

Why? Because the simple fact that Archer exists means that he had already lost the fight. Because winning it would mean some kind of a non-existence, which is intelligently mentionned here as a time paradox.

If you could travel back to the past. And kill yourself, would you succeed?

The fact that you managed to kill yourself means you've lived up to the age during which you decided the killing. But if you've managed to do the killing, you wouldn't have lived up to that point and decided to do it. Hence the fact that you can't have killed yourself...

Did anyone get what I meant?

In UBW, Archer could have killed Shirou and he would still have remained a Heroic Spirit, because the Shirou in UBW would not have led to the creation of Archer, they became different people.

The Shirou that would led to the creation of Archer is either from the Fate scenerio, or another alternate timeline.

[studiocode]

Does anybody have any answers to what I wrote?:D

[PastPrime]

A question
What do you think the chances are that Anime Shirou will do something trying to help Saber in her fight with Berserker that will cause Ilya and Rin to realize who Archer really was. Ilya already knows Shirou is special and wants him. If she finds out exactly how special Saber and Rin won't be able to pry her off of him.

[Darkside]

is it just me or does Illya at times look a lot older then a little kid?
What i really wanna know is if Shirou ends up looking and/or being anything like Archer by the end of the series? If so that'd be badass... though its still hard to believe that, that little punk shirou becomes such a badass later in his life...

[Nightengale]

is it just me or does Illya at times look a lot older then a little kid?
What i really wanna know is if Shirou ends up looking and/or being anything like Archer by the end of the series? If so that'd be badass... though its still hard to believe that, that little punk shirou becomes such a badass later in his life...

Nope, he becomes the Archer he is MUCH later in his lifetime. Surely not in his teenage years. If I recall correctly, the only reason his skin and hair turned abnormal was due to continous use of Tracing.

I seriously need to replay the game.....but I want to wait for the PS2 version....

[Prodigious]

I don't think so. Unless the series jumps ahead a decade.

I always thought Archer got his look from years of battle and trying to be the hero. Sort of like how you get grey hair from working at a stressful job.

[Darkside]

Nope, he becomes the Archer he is MUCH later in his lifetime. Surely not in his teenage years. If I recall correctly, the only reason his skin and hair turned abnormal was due to continous use of Tracing.

I seriously need to replay the game.....but I want to wait for the PS2 version....

ah thanks for clearing that up :)

[Nightengale]

A question
What do you think the chances are that Anime Shirou will do something trying to help Saber in her fight with Berserker that will cause Ilya and Rin to realize who Archer really was. Ilya already knows Shirou is special and wants him. If she finds out exactly how special Saber and Rin won't be able to pry her off of him.

There's always...

http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/8819/fate3712gf.th.jpg (http://img437.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fate3712gf.jpg)

or it is...
http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/876/fate1544zr.th.jpg (http://img437.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fate1544zr.jpg)

There was another possibility, but that got nixed since Archie died.

[Darkside]

There's always...

http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/8819/fate3712gf.th.jpg (http://img437.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fate3712gf.jpg)

or it is...
http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/876/fate1544zr.th.jpg (http://img437.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fate1544zr.jpg)

There was another possibility, but that got nixed since Archie died.

If that first pic is Shirou's version of UBW, it looks a bit different then Archer's, or is that just because the anime made it a bit diff looking then the game? Also what's with shirou's left arm in the 2nd pic?[ It's a bit darker in skin color and looks more muscular then he should be

[monster]

There was another possibility, but that got nixed since Archie died. Oh, come on, show it anyway, please.

[Village Idiot]

If that first pic is Shirou's version of UBW, it looks a bit different then Archer's, or is that just because the anime made it a bit diff looking then the game? Also what's with shirou's left arm in the 2nd pic?[ It's a bit darker in skin color and looks more muscular then he should be

That's Shirou's UBW in UBW scenerio.

The reason why it looks different than Archer's UBW, is because a Reality Marble is a reflection of one's current inner self manifested into reality.

Think of what the gears in Archer's UBW symbolizes, and you'll understand the difference.

That's from HF, Archer was killed, and gave Shirou his arm.

Nope, he becomes the Archer he is MUCH later in his lifetime. Surely not in his teenage years. If I recall correctly, the only reason his skin and hair turned abnormal was due to continous use of Tracing.

I seriously need to replay the game.....but I want to wait for the PS2 version....

Are there add-ons to the PS2 version? Voices? Added CGs? Mini-Games? etc?

[Nightengale]

Oh, come on, show it anyway, please.

Technically, it's no different from the second picture with

Shirou having Archer's arm, but the 2nd picture can make sense as it's not really neccesary for Archer's hand to be there for Shirou's hair to slick back like Archer, even if it did factor in the game.

But sadly, I'm at work now, so that pic will have to wait...like 8 hours?

And Village, aside from voices (( Not sure if it's fully voiced )), I heard there would be some remade/extra CG. I heard there would be a 4th Illya scenario, but who knows?

[Village Idiot]

Ilya scenerio? oooo gotta get it then and play it when PS3 comes out Huzza for Non-Region Lock! :D

[Darkside]

That's Shirou's UBW in UBW scenerio.

The reason why it looks different than Archer's UBW, is because a Reality Marble is a reflection of one's current inner self manifested into reality.

Think of what the gears in Archer's UBW symbolizes, and you'll understand the difference.

That's from HF, Archer was killed, and gave Shirou his arm.



Are there add-ons to the PS2 version? Voices? Added CGs? Mini-Games? etc?

makes sense, but excuse me if im dense lol... i can't figure out what the gears stand for :\

[Xellos-_^]

is it just me or does Illya at times look a lot older then a little kid?


Do you really want that question answer? If you do ask at the game spoier :p

[MakubeX2]

makes sense, but excuse me if im dense lol... i can't figure out what the gears stand for :\

What do you become if you are forced to take and obey orders which goes aganist your ideals and beliefs over a long period of time ?

[Eclipze]

What do you become if you are forced to take and obey orders which goes aganist your ideals and beliefs over a long period of time ?
a...
Mindless killing machine?
Thats my guess.

[Darkside]

heh makes sense, he becomes like a robot or machine like eclipze said

[Shiroth]

Ilya scenerio? oooo gotta get it then and play it when PS3 comes out Huzza for Non-Region Lock! :D
It shall be good.. though it'll be a lil' strange playing with a control pad.

[Xellos-_^]

Ilya scenerio? oooo gotta get it then and play it when PS3 comes out Huzza for Non-Region Lock! :D

First ps2 then thew rold. The days of the loli are among us.

[fict_ticious]

First ps2 then thew rold. The days of the loli are among us.

Still needs a Taiga scenerio, IMO.:p

Ohh, and about the gears...
I was going to say that your personality goes rigid, and thought process monotonous. Also, I feel that the rust coloured landscape represents the "end of ideals" the show was named after.

[stormy001_M1A2]

People who knew better feel free to correct me here...

Archer's identity.

Archer lied to Rin when she asked on who he was in gamestory. The anime version makes Archer have amnesia remembering on who he was.

1. The pendant that Archer has is the key to who he was. The one which Rin used to heal Shirou in the fateful night. In the game, Archer gave the pendant but Shirou kept the pendant as Rin find outs in UBW. That confirms to Rin on who is her Servant is.

2. Shirou used to be in Archery Club and considered by club's president as a very formidable archer. Despite retired, she still wants to challenge Shirou for a final duel on who is a better archer. (game conversation)

3. The Tracing ability is what Rin shocked to discover is similar to Archer's Kanshou and Bakunya blade imaging.

4. Archer knew Rin's pecularity of tea taste. In anime episode 9, Rin asked Shirou to brew her particular tea. In gamestory, Rin was pleasantly surprised by Archer's tea making skill.

5. The theme of Emiya was played during UBW summoning.

In UBW he plan to kill younger version of himself because he got sick and tired of the principle. When he sacrifice himself to be heroic spirit, he was summoned to be clean up crew in disasters, have to kill some to save lives. In the end he become so disillusioned that he decided to end it all by kill his own existence. Hence the Reality Marble of Archer has machine wheels at the background signifies his feelings that he is just an automata for specific purpose. The younger Shirou Reality Marble has no wheels in the background in contrast, symbolizing his belief in justice.

[Village Idiot]

People who knew better feel free to correct me here...

In UBW he plan to kill younger version of himself because he got sick and tired of the principle. When he sacrifice himself to be heroic spirit, he was summoned to be clean up crew in disasters, have to kill some to save lives. In the end he become so disillusioned that he decided to end it all by kill his own existence. Hence the Reality Marble of Archer has machine wheels at the background signifies his feelings that he is just an automata for specific purpose. The younger Shirou Reality Marble has no wheels in the background in contrast, symbolizing his belief in justice.

When Archer became a Heroic Spirit, because he was not well known, he was summoned as a Counter Force, and tasked with wiping out all humans in the surrounding area to stabilize matters. Archer wanted to save people, not kill people, and yet, if he were to do nothing, then more people will die as the result. That's when he finally realised the meaning behind his father's words. But even if he were to give up and die, because all Heroic Servants are summoned as copies of the original, he would just be re-summoned again. There was no way out.

When a Heroic Spirit is summoned, only a copy is sent out, and when their mission is over, the copy is destroyed, thus preventing the original Heroic Spirit from gaining any additional memories/experience. Archer's UBW made him unique because in addition to Tracing an object, he also Traces the memories/skill of those whom once owned the object. What made it horrific was that due to this, it allows Archer to retain his memories, and he remembered every time he was summoned, every person he had killed, every moment of his existence.

Archer became nothing more than a machine, constantly being summoned time after time again for the same purpose over and over again, for something, that he no longer believes in.

Archer abandoned everything for the sake of what he believed in, and in the end, it left him with nothing.

In UBW scenerio, Archer knew that killing Shirou would not change anything, because he did not originate from the future of this particular timeline. But he wanted to kill Shirou anyways, because he was so sickened of his past self, and the reality of what his hopes and dreams will eventually lead him (its sort of a way to keep UBW Shirou from experiencing the same things that he did).

[Xellos-_^]

When a Heroic Spirit is summoned, only a copy is sent out, and when their mission is over, the copy is destroyed, thus preventing the original Heroic Spirit from gaining any additional memories/experience.

Correct me if i am wrong

]but didn't sabre remeber her war as the servant for Shiro adopted father and how he order her to destory the grail

[Village Idiot]

Correct me if i am wrong

]but didn't sabre remeber her war as the servant for Shiro adopted father and how he order her to destory the grail

Saber is 'different' than a normal Heroic Spirit.

[Mr. Guy]

When Archer became a Heroic Spirit, because he was not well known, he was summoned as a Counter Force, and tasked with wiping out all humans in the surrounding area to stabilize matters. Archer wanted to save people, not kill people, and yet, if he were to do nothing, then more people will die as the result. That's when he finally realised the meaning behind his father's words. But even if he were to give up and die, because all Heroic Servants are summoned as copies of the original, he would just be re-summoned again. There was no way out.

When a Heroic Spirit is summoned, only a copy is sent out, and when their mission is over, the copy is destroyed, thus preventing the original Heroic Spirit from gaining any additional memories/experience. Archer's UBW made him unique because in addition to Tracing an object, he also Traces the memories/skill of those whom once owned the object. What made it horrific was that due to this, it allows Archer to retain his memories, and he remembered every time he was summoned, every person he had killed, every moment of his existence.

Archer became nothing more than a machine, constantly being summoned time after time again for the same purpose over and over again, for something, that he no longer believes in.

Archer abandoned everything for the sake of what he believed in, and in the end, it left him with nothing.

In UBW scenerio, Archer knew that killing Shirou would not change anything, because he did not originate from the future of this particular timeline. But he wanted to kill Shirou anyways, because he was so sickened of his past self, and the reality of what his hopes and dreams will eventually lead him (its sort of a way to keep UBW Shirou from experiencing the same things that he did).
To briefly add to this (and stormy's)...I believe it's also hinted that Shirou's ideals came at a price. Namely, some of his friends ended up dying for them. I think Rin is the one being hinted at there? Either way, it was another reason to hate himself for having such ideals that lead to the deaths of people he cared about.

[Nightengale]

To briefly add to this (and stormy's)...I believe it's also hinted that Shirou's ideals came at a price. Namely, some of his friends ended up dying for them. I think Rin is the one being hinted at there? Either way, it was another reason to hate himself for having such ideals that lead to the deaths of people he cared about.

It was never clearly hinted who, but several friends of his ended up dying for it, most likely Rin and some of his military comrades as well.

The sad irony of Shirou's lifetime was that he became a realistic hero, by killing people to save other people, directly the opposite of his ideals. Even after wishing to be a Heroic Spirit to be the idealist hero he dreamed of, he still in the end, couldn't be one and argubly a worse kind of hero in his afterlife.

[Village Idiot]

At least Archer can rest assure that in the ending of UBW, that this particular Shirou combined with his jump started Magus/UBW development far earlier than Archer originally did, his eventual training in London with Rin in the Mage Academy, and most importantly, realization and acceptance of the reality of the path he has chosen, his life will turn out completely different than Archer's.

Not to mention, obtaining his pimpin Mage Jacket, control over his Reality Marble (something Mages dream of), surviving a Grail War, and defeating the King of Freakin-Heroes in single combat. Shirou's going to have his hands full with all them Mage Academy Girls all over him. Poor Rin better keep him on a tight leash :D

[stormy001_M1A2]

In a sense Shirou achieve the level of badass like Shiki Tohno in this stage.

[tragicsmile]

Not to mention, obtaining his pimpin Mage Jacket, control over his Reality Marble (something Mages dream of), surviving a Grail War, and defeating the King of Freakin-Heroes in single combat. Shirou's going to have his hands full with all them Mage Academy Girls all over him. Poor Rin better keep him on a tight leash :D

Pictures? Or is this the usual stuff that Archer wears?

[Shiroth]

In a sense Shirou achieve the level of badass like Shiki Tohno in this stage.
I hope you mean game or manga version Shiki.

[stormy001_M1A2]

I hope you mean game or manga version Shiki.

i nver recognize only game and manga version....

[eMpTy265]

Correct me if i am wrong

]but didn't sabre remeber her war as the servant for Shiro adopted father and how he order her to destory the grail

Saber is 'different' than a normal Heroic Spirit.


It's the same reason she can't switch to 'spirit form' right?


Hint:

If I'm not mistaken, in return for getting the holy grail and asking the world for a 'favor', the hero becomes a heroic spirit to serve the world for eternity.




Here's a question about Archer's summoning:

Assuming Rin was at her best condition (and not an hour off), would Rin have been able to summon Saber?

I'm inclined to think that she'd still get Archer, even if Shirou wasn't to become a master....

What do the vets think? :)

[Nightengale]

Here's a question about Archer's summoning:

Assuming Rin was at her best condition (and not an hour off), would Rin have been able to summon Saber?

I'm inclined to think that she'd still get Archer, even if Shirou wasn't to become a master....

What do the vets think? :)

Possible, but highly doubtful unless her magic power is so strong that it erases the connection of her father's magical gem with Archer alongside Shirou's connection with Saber.

VERY VERY unlikely. Plus, I believe even if Rin was able to override the connection between Archer and her father's gem, she'd would've gotten a different Saber instead.

[IMSabbel]

what i REALLY wonder:

If, for summoning reasons, a connection between the original soul of the servant helps to select who gets whom (like using berserkers club), why did shirou get anybody else than archer? what bigger connection than actually being your servant could there be?

[SilverHeimdall]

[SPOILERS][SPOILERS][SPOILERS]

Here's everything from the Unlimited Blade Works scenario of the Game, Fate/Stay Night, on the topic of Archer.

[spoiler]He was actually Emiya Shirou from the future. The artifact that summoned him was the pendant that Rin used to save his life. He really did become a hero that he wanted to! It was possible for him to be summoned from the future because the heroic spirits are beings separated from the timeline of our normal world. One thing that's different about his case is that he chose to become an heroic spirit himself, so he can help more people. Most of the other heroes are forced to become an heroic spirit because of their fame and power, but in Emiya's case it was out of his choice. He's been acting weird since the beginning of this story, trying to get at Shirou whenever he had a chance. The reason he wanted to kill him was because becoming a hero was very different from his ideal, and wanted to kill his existence beforehand. An hero can only save someone who he swore to protect and many sacrifices were made when he tried to do something. In other words, he was giving up. Through the fight with himself, he is shocked by the determination he had back then. He decides to keep on fighting once again. At the end, he tells Rin with a smile "I've got the answer. It's going to be all right Tohsaka. I'll do my best from now on too" He will keep on being summoned to fight for someone forever, but he's happy to do so because that's the choice he made.

And here's a familiar face with a familiar outfit!

http://bin.4chan.org/w/src/1144522045231.jpg

[Village Idiot]

You really should credit the original author if you're ripping an entire paragraph off Moonlit World.

[sniperz]

lol anyhow. it was very touchy of archer knowing again the determination and his "protector of justice" shows a lot.in real life, there might be a lot of protector of justice but if it ended like fate did.the world might be peace :p

[realistknight]

So if in this timeline Shirou also decides to become a Heroic Soul does that mean there will be two Shirous a Master can summon :confused: ?

[Archer]

No. There is only one Heroic Spirit EMIYA. While there may be many Emiya Shirous that can become the EMIYA, the records and accounts of the Emiya Shirous will be added to EMIYA's database.

It's similar to how there are many different stories and backgrounds all based upon one legend.

[riznar]

Archer,

So Heroic Spirit EMIYA as you put it has all of the abilities of every Shirou from every timeline?

[Archer]

Archer,

So Heroic Spirit EMIYA as you put it has all of the abilities of every Shirou from every timeline?

No.

Not every Shirou becomes a Heroic Spirit, obviously. There are certain requirements that must be fulfilled.

[sniperz]

countless emiyas setlling the holy grail war? ;p

they nid deep explanatation on those too !!

yea since archer already knew.. does tat mean this is like part of the life cycle of their world? yea we need infos on that

[chImp]

Is there an English version of the game by the way? I only stumbled upon Japanese versions, which I cannot understand.

[Hemisphere]

No english version.

Every EMIYA that fulfills the Heroic Spirits requirement doesn't become a heroic spirit entity of their own - they just get imprinted onto the existing EIREI EMIYA that is within the Holy Grail. Think of it as additional data being added onto an already existing program.

[Mandrake]

I wonder, did the future emiya participate in the same war they were in now? If so..who did he see as Rin's servant, also himself?

[Shiroth]

I wonder, did the future emiya participate in the same war they were in now? If so..who did he see as Rin's servant, also himself?
Future Shirou's (Archer) past in the war was not the same one in every detail to what we're seeing now.

[ChainLegacy]

I read somewhere that by the end of the War the Shirou from this timeline surpasses the 'Archer version' of Shirou in terms of power. Is this true? I know it could be, since Archer is from a parallel timeline.

what i REALLY wonder:

If, for summoning reasons, a connection between the original soul of the servant helps to select who gets whom (like using berserkers club), why did shirou get anybody else than archer? what bigger connection than actually being your servant could there be?
I would also like to hear an answer to this question, if there is one.

[Archer]

I read somewhere that by the end of the War the Shirou from this timeline surpasses the 'Archer version' of Shirou in terms of power. Is this true? I know it could be, since Archer is from a parallel timeline.


I would also like to hear an answer to this question, if there is one.

Telling you the answer to this question will give away the secret to Saber's summoning.

[ChainLegacy]

Okay, do you know the answer to my other question, then?

[Archer]

Okay, do you know the answer to my other question, then?

Depends on which Shirou you're talking about.

Fate Shirou (the Shirou that most resembles the anime Shirou) will probably not surpass Archer. UBW Shirou will, most likely. HF Shirou does not survive to surpass Archer.

[MiniTeddy]

from what i know Archer is Shriou i worked this out because well it was rather blatent when he summoned those swords and had that pedant on when he died cos that pedant kept shirou alive

[SlashZero]

Telling you the answer to this question will give away the secret to Saber's summoning.
Well, we can also take into account Rin summoned Archer before Shirou summoned his servant. I don't know if it's possible to summon the same servant twice in the same war, though.

[anim4niac]

so archer has the powers of every shirou who became a heroic spirit? is that what ya mean arch? (i have no idea how to put up that spoiler thing -_-||)

[Archer]

so archer has the powers of every shirou who became a heroic spirit? is that what ya mean arch? (i have no idea how to put up that spoiler thing -_-||)
Pretty much. But those Shirous basically all went through the same thing to become a Heroic Spirit, so there's not much of a difference between them, if any at all.

[Bahumat]

from what i know Archer is Shriou i worked this out because well it was rather blatent when he summoned those swords and had that pedant on when he died cos that pedant kept shirou alive

I agree with teddy. Although it is alluded who he is in ep 14:
such as when he flashbacks to his old memories....at least that's how I interpret it. When Shirou images Kashoi and Bakuya is when Rin realises who Archer really is.

to respond to IMSabbel:
The calalyst for summoning has to be something important to the Heroic Soul themself. This is like Berserker's club/sword. Shirou was never important to himself, and thus would not be able to summon himself. He can summon Saber, as he has something important to her, and Rin can summon Archer as she has something important to him (the pendant she saved him with).

[lftwgr]

Questions about the Anime, not the Game (ok maybe the Fate ending):

Is Archer from the same timeline as Shirou? If he is not, then was he ever Saber's master in that timeline? If he was, then why is it that during the scene where, after receiving a pounding from Heracles and regaining his memories, the flashback sequences featured only 2 characters - Rin and his younger self? Does this mean that after accepting that Saber and himself were never meant to be together, he goes on to be romantically linked to Rin? (which would explain his fondness / teasing of Rin at the start of the season and his unconscious memory of how Rin likes her tea despite the fact that he has no knowledge of his true identity)

Oh and does Shirou know that Archer is actually his future self? You would've thought that after imaging Kansho and Bakuya, Caliburn, Avalon, a wooden bow, one arrow, countless iron kettles, etc. that he would be wise to the fact that imaging is a rare skill no one else possesses.

[mlai]

1. Archer and Shirou are 2 separate timelines.

2. He was Saber's master, but he never developed a romantic relationship with her. However, even Archer remembers Saber's summoning in the shed with a certain fondness; her striking elegance at that moonlit moment was forever seared into the mind of every Shirou.

3. In Archer's own timeline, he became close with Rin rather than Saber. It is hinted that he failed to save Rin from death when they were both older.

4. Shirou is an idiot.

5. One thing I would have changed about the anime... When Archer injured an arm after over-exerting himself while fighting Berserker, it was the opposite arm from the one Saber-dragon bit off in spirit mode. In the game, there is a reason why it's not the same arm. But for the anime, I would have made it the same arm. It would have offered a very nice explanation.

[lftwgr]

2. He was Saber's master, but he never developed a romantic relationship with her. However, even Archer remembers Saber's summoning in the shed with a certain fondness; her striking elegance at that moonlit moment was forever seared into the mind of every Shirou.

3. In Archer's own timeline, he became close with Rin rather than Saber. It is hinted that he failed to save Rin from death when they were both older.

4. Shirou is an idiot.

5. One thing I would have changed about the anime... When Archer injured an arm after over-exerting himself while fighting Berserker, it was the opposite arm from the one Saber-dragon bit off in spirit mode. In the game, there is a reason why it's not the same arm. But for the anime, I would have made it the same arm. It would have offered a very nice explanation.


3. This explains a lot about his behavior with Rin when he is her servant. Of all the master/servant pairings, these two seem to hit it off right from the start. I wonder if the Fate Shirou would follow Archer's romantic path now that he has fallen for (and lost) Saber. I know: I'm a hopeless romantic who is just looking for any excuse for a happy ending, so don't rub it in. :D

4. He is an idiot. But not as jaded / world-weary as Archer. Too bad Archer didn't regain his memories during his conversations (pre-Berserker) with Shirou. I would've preferred if he shared his thoughts on what were his past mistakes (in a enigmatic and cryptic manner of course) with his younger self.

5. I thought the way Archer got injured was weird - he slices Heracles with the reinforced versions of Kansho and Bakuya and suddenly there is a blast that injures only his left arm? I don't even see anything that indicates an injury (blood, torn clothing, etc.)

I guess Rin would be Shirou's anchor in reality to tame his 'hero of justice' ideology in the future? I thought Rin cracked a little in trying to save Sakura from Caster though.


It is implied that the summoning process requires a significant object to focus on (e.g. Excalibur's scabbard for Saber, or the Tosaka jewel in Archer's case). However, during the meeting at the Emiya residence after Shirou's first encounter with Shinji as a master, Rin seems to be saying that which servant is summoned depends on the characteristics of the master. So is she confused? What happens if someone like Shinji were to use the Scabbard and try to summon Arthuria?

[mlai]

1. I think anime Shirou would end up with Sakura, if anybody. Rin loves her little sister too much to steal her man away from her.

2. Archer's "exploding swords" was Studio Deen's incorrect use of his Broken Phantasm. The act of magically enhancing a traced weapon so that it rises one grade in power, but in so doing the weapon becomes unstable and shatters in a discharge of energy. Looks like he miscalculated the timing of his Broken Phantasms, and got caught in the ensuing explosion. His arm is hurt from a past trace-training accident; it's his weak arm.

3. I feel anime Rin's character development was unfinished. The early episodes made a point of establishing her as a young woman ruled by the ideology and the legacy of her magus lineage. Shirou's influence softened her somewhat and allowed her to act for the sake of others according to her own moral center, rather than be led solely by the pride of dead ancestors. At the end of her arc, she was able to act on her own behalf, and reclaim a sister who was abandoned by her father. But this is not the end of her rebellion. In the game, she goes on to overthrow the patriarch of the Matou clan, one of the few remaining old magi with vested interest in the Grail War. This was her final triumph as one who re-examined her inherited values and found them lacking, cast off the curse of the War which had given only misfortune to her clan, and live and fight for her own beliefs. This wasn't shown clearly in the anime.

4. The nature of the Servant depends on both the Master and the artifact, but the artifact holds greater priority.

[Archer]

3. This explains a lot about his behavior with Rin when he is her servant. Of all the master/servant pairings, these two seem to hit it off right from the start. I wonder if the Fate Shirou would follow Archer's romantic path now that he has fallen for (and lost) Saber. I know: I'm a hopeless romantic who is just looking for any excuse for a happy ending, so don't rub it in. :D

4. He is an idiot. But not as jaded / world-weary as Archer. Too bad Archer didn't regain his memories during his conversations (pre-Berserker) with Shirou. I would've preferred if he shared his thoughts on what were his past mistakes (in a enigmatic and cryptic manner of course) with his younger self.

5. I thought the way Archer got injured was weird - he slices Heracles with the reinforced versions of Kansho and Bakuya and suddenly there is a blast that injures only his left arm? I don't even see anything that indicates an injury (blood, torn clothing, etc.)

I guess Rin would be Shirou's anchor in reality to tame his 'hero of justice' ideology in the future? I thought Rin cracked a little in trying to save Sakura from Caster though.


It is implied that the summoning process requires a significant object to focus on (e.g. Excalibur's scabbard for Saber, or the Tosaka jewel in Archer's case). However, during the meeting at the Emiya residence after Shirou's first encounter with Shinji as a master, Rin seems to be saying that which servant is summoned depends on the characteristics of the master. So is she confused? What happens if someone like Shinji were to use the Scabbard and try to summon Arthuria?


Point Number 4: Archer does recover his memories before Saber is even summoned; Saber's attack prevents him from accomplishing his true goal of killing Emiya Shirou.

And that's the reason why Emiya Shirou does not see Archer as himself. Archer's character is too fundamentally different; they are like opposing forces. They get on each other's nerves. Would you like to see someone that is completely opposite your character as yourself?

Also, Shinji can't be able to summon anything, he's too weak for that.

Oh, and I don't think Rin would care. At all. Heck, she didn't even rescue him in the beginning for his sake, she rescued him for the sake of somebody else.

[mlai]

I would disagree; Rin cares a lot. She's mildly abrasive towards Shirou but for her standards that's considered to be extreme caring - she wouldn't give the time of day to someone she doesn't care about.

Thru-out the anime you can see they work well together and she enjoys being with him. But that's all she allows herself because her sister's happiness is always on her mind.

[Bahumat]

3. This explains a lot about his behavior with Rin when he is her servant. Of all the master/servant pairings, these two seem to hit it off right from the start. I wonder if the Fate Shirou would follow Archer's romantic path now that he has fallen for (and lost) Saber. I know: I'm a hopeless romantic who is just looking for any excuse for a happy ending, so don't rub it in. :D

4. He is an idiot. But not as jaded / world-weary as Archer. Too bad Archer didn't regain his memories during his conversations (pre-Berserker) with Shirou. I would've preferred if he shared his thoughts on what were his past mistakes (in a enigmatic and cryptic manner of course) with his younger self.

5. I thought the way Archer got injured was weird - he slices Heracles with the reinforced versions of Kansho and Bakuya and suddenly there is a blast that injures only his left arm? I don't even see anything that indicates an injury (blood, torn clothing, etc.)

I guess Rin would be Shirou's anchor in reality to tame his 'hero of justice' ideology in the future? I thought Rin cracked a little in trying to save Sakura from Caster though.


It is implied that the summoning process requires a significant object to focus on (e.g. Excalibur's scabbard for Saber, or the Tosaka jewel in Archer's case). However, during the meeting at the Emiya residence after Shirou's first encounter with Shinji as a master, Rin seems to be saying that which servant is summoned depends on the characteristics of the master. So is she confused? What happens if someone like Shinji were to use the Scabbard and try to summon Arthuria?

In response to the spoiler, characteristics do affect it somewhat.

As a rule, the servant fits the master. Easily seen with the shirou/saber, rin/archer, ilya/berserker. However, a catalyst appears to only assist in summoning specific Heroic Souls: look at gilga-sama. His catalyst was the oldest fossilised snake skin. :rolleyes:
So, even if the catalyst was used, the master can't be the polar opposite of the servant in nature for it to work. Gilga is similiar to his master, so it worked.

And shinji's a loser, he stole rider anyhow.......

[spy6060]

3. In Archer's own timeline, he became close with Rin rather than Saber. It is hinted that he failed to save Rin from death when they were both older.


It was Ilya who got close to Shiro in Archer's timeline, and he failed to save Ilya when they got older.

So my guess is the Archer is from Ilya route of F/SN game( a route which was oringinally planned, but deleted by TM due to some issues). Rin and Archer probably died pretty early on in order for that to happen.:( :( :( :(

[mlai]

I think Ilya got close to Shirou in all the timelines. Shirou treasures his stepsister. She also dies of natural causes in all the timelines; it's not a variable for Shirou's varying futures.

[X_Danny_X]

can someone explain to me that bridge fight where Saber killed Archer?

how did that happen? i never seen it or mentioned much about it when reading about scenarios. I heard the word "loop" when it is mentioned.

[HurricaneHige]

Archer is most likely from Fate route if its from any of the scenarios, which i doubt

altho i love Saber, by going the Fate route anime-only peeps miss out of the majority of the story and hence y FSN is rated mediocre in so many cases. If one was to read through the 3 scenarios u would instantly fall in love with FSN...

[mlai]

Bridge fight is a scene in Fate Hollow Ataraxia. Archer was like a mid-boss "Shirou" has to smash thru in order to advance to another game area.

Archer was a fatalist, saying that even though he had no reason to kill Shirou at that point, he'll do it anyways.

Shirou brought Saber along to defeat Archer... Read the translated scene; it's quite exciting.

It was hinted that Saber knew exactly who Archer really was. But she's quite the little realist; she killed Archer without hesitation, for her Shirou.

[X_Danny_X]

Bridge fight is a scene in Fate Hollow Ataraxia. Archer was like a mid-boss "Shirou" has to smash thru in order to advance to another game area.

Archer was a fatalist, saying that even though he had no reason to kill Shirou at that point, he'll do it anyways.

Shirou brought Saber along to defeat Archer... Read the translated scene; it's quite exciting.

It was hinted that Saber knew exactly who Archer really was. But she's quite the little realist; she killed Archer without hesitation, for her Shirou.


where is this translation?

[Ibuki]

One thing I gotta say about Archer. He's got some real FOB engrish...

[Shana-tan]

One question...

Archer loved Saber, Rin or Sakura? Illya? Anyone know?

[Village Idiot]

One question...

Archer loved Saber, Rin or Sakura? Illya? Anyone know?

Archer didn't get close to Saber. Rin was (apparently) very close to him, as it was hinted in his timeline, she was one of his comrades fighting for his beliefs before she died. Ilya was very special to him, and he was greatly saddened when she died a year after the 5th Grail War ended.

[Shana-tan]

Archer didn't get close to Saber. Rin was (apparently) very close to him, as it was hinted in his timeline, she was one of his comrades fighting for his beliefs before she died. Ilya was very special to him, and he was greatly saddened when she died a year after the 5th Grail War ended.

I read in wikipedia that his némesis was Rin Tohsaka, Sakura Matou and Illya... with that, the only thing I can think is about Shirou in Heaven's Feel Bad Ending, where he loved and killed Sakura, later Rin and later Illya... that would fit with his nemesis... I think

[carmolita]

******spoiler******

I think the game went down a different path then the anime if it didn't it wouldn't be interesting or be able to continue not uncommon mangas do the same..
1. I think archer is from the past per conversation he had w/ rin after summoning.
2. I think all the servents remember there previous grail wars but the same servents don't participate in every war because they are. Summond with the characteristics of their master rin says this and saber reinterates this to shiro in eps 16 and says it was destined that she was summond by him because he mirrors herself.
3. Archer was in the last war I think he fought for illya family (her grandfather) although its not uncommon he knows illya name its been said so many times but he knows of the shack for a hideing place.
4 saber knows who archer is and I think archer was her servent in the past because he says she shouldn't have to fight in this war and saber try to command him and he says I am your enemy now. And archer knows a lot about saber and her intentions.
5. Archer knows what shiro is capable of he's been watching him and his magic forever afterall there is a reason why his father only taught him reinforcement spells...
6. And who is to say this isn't a. Part of a 2nd chance war from a previous war..it is the 5th one afterall
7. Archer has that eye power to see everything he probably saw what shiro was doing and his abducton or it can support the game theory

[Naruto_spartan]

It looks like we need to clarify a lot of things about Archer.

1) From what we know, he did not participate in the 4th war, I do not know about the others although he does posses a great deal of knowledge about the war, so either heroes are somehow informed of this before they are summoned or because he fought in other Grail Wars.

2) He cares deaply for Ilya because she is, and Shirou does not know this but Ilya might know, Shirou's step sister. In one of the scenarious it is said that Shirou's step father' genes were used to make Ilya.

3) How do we really know that Archer lost his memories? HE might have lost them but regained them soon enough and lied about the rest or he could have been lying from the start. From the anime and game and manga, from the anime especually, it is clear that Archer knows a lot more about Shirou's intentions and desires then anyone else, even his closest friends don't know that much about SHirou and Archer spent only a couple of hours with him, so he clearly knows about his relationship with Shirou.

4) He could have killed off Saber easily and every scenario, his UBW (Unlimited Blade Works) is very powerful, which means that he still loves her, also he could not bring himself to hurt Sakura and Ilya, he only hated himself, Shirou. Probably because in the future he faught in the war and Sakura, Rin and maybe Ilya were some of his comerads who died and he could not save them as Shirou.

5) Archer is clearly Shirou, in the 14th episode he seams to regain his Shirou determination, seeing as he could have run away but he sacrificed himself, like Shirou, to give Saber a fighting chance and to slow down Berserker as long as possible. He didn't run away because he couldn't.

6) Archer knows about Shirou's destiny and all their incounters, he has only made Shirou more stronger, not only in power but also in spirit. Everything that Archer said to Shirou came from experience and wisdome, something that SHirou could not learn by himself. SO Archer contributed to Shirou's grouth as a hero, even though he didn't want to at first.

7) In the future, Archer, or should I say Shirou, becomes a great warrior of the war and a well known hero. He makes a pact with Fate when he finds that he couldn't save a few hundred people and in return he would serve fate as an epic hero. His wish is granted, but then one of the people he saved, used SHirou as a political escape goat and Shirou was charged with high treason, even though everyone knew that was not the case. Shirou, with the realisation that he can't save everyone and that few must be sacrificed for the salvation of many, accepted his death.

8) He clerly has some sort of relationship with Rin, because he is very charming to her and calls her and exceptional magus, wich could mean that they are comerads in the future, like partners.

9) The fact that Rin could summon Archer with the same pendant she used to restore SHirou's life is clearly a sigh that Archer is Shirou and that he, in the future is much more analitical and realistic like Rin, but it could also mean that there was no one else Rin could summon, seing as the pendant became like a heart for SHirou.

10) He uses the same magic that Shirou is proficiant with, and this a great rarity indeed. Although I don't know why he doesn't trace Excalibur or Avalon anymore. Maybe it's like a sign of respect for Saber, because he doesn't want to tarnish her name or he just wants to depend on his own power and to become as great as Saber without her power.

11) Since Avalon might still be in Shirou, it could also be in Archer seeing as all the wounds he got from his fights were enough to kill any servant, and his healing powers were pretty great as well.

12) Archer only acts as a antagonist in UBW scenario, because he really doesn't want Shirou to suffer betrayal and guilt like he did. Althoug by the end he accepts his destiny and the life he chose. THis statement can also be said about The fate scenario seing as he accepted his life as Shirou and used what time he had left to help Shirou defeat his enemies.

[Angrypokstick]

I m not exactly sure where i read this theory about archer, and if it was mention before forgive me. it was a while back that i saw this.
Someone speculated that in shirou's time line after "fate" route that shirou/archer did indeed became close with Rin and Illya but the one he ended up with is Karen from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia. The reason being that :
1) During Fate/Hollow Atraxia and its time loops, the only characters that turned out to be fake was Shirou/avenger and karen. Since all the important character in the time loop was created from shirou/archer's memory and that Karen was the only one that shirou have not meet prior to the time loop(the only new major character introduced that did not take part in the 5th holy grail war), for her to appear in the time loop would suggest that she was created from archer's memory and held significant importance to archer. Not to mention that Shirou/avenger acted "interestingly" whenever he is around Karen.
(Note: the part above will seem confusing for those who have not played and understood FHA.)
2) the red trench coat archer wore is made from the same Holy cloth that Karen uses as a weapon in FHA. The cloth seals ones power. Shirou realized that Archer wear the red trench coat to prevent UBW from Backfiring on him as shirou had to do the same amount of tracing during Heaven's feel and ended up creating sword within his own body and damaging himself.
-Shirou in "Fate" would definitely practice tracing heavily after the 5th war, and would be a matter of time before he masters UBW. However when he is practicing he will meet the problem of tracing swords inside himself when he try to trace too much swords he will damage himself heavily, resulting in his bleached hair we see in archer. Since karen replaces kotomine in the church at Fuyuki, it is only a matter of time before shirou meets her and acquire the cloth for his soon to be trench coat. Karen will give it to shirou to prevent him from killing himself practising UBW.And their relationship will likely develop from there.
-Shirou in UBW timeline however will most likely end up with Rin. As village idiot said before, shirou in UBW have a head start compared to his other time line version in learning and mastering UBW so since this version of shirou will not have to go through all continuous practice with regular tracing to learn UBW the damage he suffers from UBW will be minimized and he will have no need for the red trench coat from karen, furthermore since shirou will be leaving with tousaka to London the amount of interaction between him and Karen will be limited and he might never even meet her at all. Indeed, the person that UBW shirou will become is very different from the shirou in Fate.

This was something from a speculation about archer i saw sometime ago on some forum. Personally i thought it made sense. but is just speculation. I m sorry if the above explanation is confusing. English is not my native language and i have a hard time with English grammar. so excuse my bad English if i have any mistake.:)

[Blade_Lord]

4) He could have killed off Saber easily and every scenario, his UBW (Unlimited Blade Works) is very powerful, which means that he still loves her, also he could not bring himself to hurt Sakura and Ilya, he only hated himself, Shirou. Probably because in the future he faught in the war and Sakura, Rin and maybe Ilya were some of his comerads who died and he could not save them as Shirou.
woa hold on did you say he could kill saber easily in every scenario? Iamandragon says otherwise and the only way archer can defeat saber is by unlocking the true form of Kasho and Bakuya.

[iamandragon]

Indeed. UBW against other servants is just another powerful skill, but if fighting head on will not give Archer a sure-win situation. Archer suffers from the one-rank-down virus, and even he can project many swords, there is still one Archer and he can only wield them one at a time. As for shooting swords, there is a limit of how many swords he can shoot, and that is about 18. Most servants will have their own method to repel/deflect/avoid this shots if the know it is coming.

You can find that out by going to the last battle against Gilgamesh to know that the maximum weapon Shirou can project at the same time one time is 18. This capacity is determined by the amount of magic circuits, not mana reserve, which cannot be improved per person.

As for unlocking the true form of Kansho and Bakuya, it is still not a gaurenteed win against Saber. The reason Saber was defeated by them is because she was corrupted, causing her to loose her natural ability 'instinct' has been down-ranked, weakening her frontal combat capability. Not to mention Invisible Air is no long active when she is [censored].

[Blade_Lord]

I was wondering is archer in the fate route the same as archer in UBW and HF?
Nasu didn't specifically point out from which time-line does he come from.

Archer suffers from the one-rank-down virus
Uhh one-rank virus?

Archer was summoned before his time of glory,he is unknown in that era so that's why he's weak. Time-line affects the servant, the more well known the servant the stronger he/she is.

[iamandragon]

If Archer is from one of the three F/SN routes, he can only be from the Fate route since he knows that Shirou has Avalon in him.

Unlike other servants, Archer did not become a servant by becoming a hero, but rather, he made a pact with the world itself to become a counter guardian, and summoned to the 5th HG war as a servant.

Uhh one-rank virus?
One-rank-down virus as in all weapons he traced are always one rank lower at their best.

[Blade_Lord]

Unlike other servants, Archer is did not become a servant by becoming a hero, but rather, he made a pact with the world itself to become a counter guardian, and summoned to the 5th HG war as a servant. One-rank-down virus as in all weapons he traced are always one rank lower at their best.
Didn't he saved a lot of people?How's that not making him a hero. He made the pact to be counter guardian after he realized that he can't protect everyone right?

[rastilin]

Didn't he saved a lot of people?How's that not making him a hero.

Being a hero implies there will be songs, speeches and legends for thousands of years. If you don't get that, you won't get the "hopes of humanity" necessary to become an eirai.


He made the pact to be counter guardian after he realized that he can't protect everyone right?

Apparently, I haven't seen much about the pact. But it's implied that you get the powers of a servant while alive in exchange for being turned into an eirai to serve the world after death. The exact words were "I pledge to serve after death, I would like my reward now." or something similar.

[iamandragon]

Didn't he saved a lot of people?How's that not making him a hero. He made the pact to be counter guardian after he realized that he can't protect everyone right?
Alajubura also did save a lot of people, but he is not a hero, as we don't know him.
In case you don't like my metaphour...having tales passed down is the minimum requirement of being a hero...

[Blade_Lord]

In case you don't like my metaphour...having tales passed down is the minimum requirement of being a hero...
One question.How do you know archer doesn't have tales about him passed down.Unless you lived in Nasuverse after archer died or Nasu said so then you can't make assumption.

[Zarxs]

One question.How do you know archer doesn't have tales about him passed down.Unless you lived in Nasuverse after archer died or Nasu said so then you can't make assumption.

If I am not mistaken those tales and stories only matter if they are in the time period the servant is summoned into. This said I doubt many people would be telling tales of a hero that has yet to be one.

[iamandragon]

One question.How do you know archer doesn't have tales about him passed down.Unless you lived in Nasuverse after archer died or Nasu said so then you can't make assumption.

Becuase Archer was never a human in his life time--he made a pact with the world directly to become a counter guardian, skipping the heroic spirit phase of most others servants. (Normal steps are heroic spirit->counter guardian->servant). He was so twisted after many summonings because all the situations he was summoned to only requires him to kill, kill, kill and kill all the minority to save the majority.

[rastilin]

Becuase Archer was never a human in his life time--he made a pact with the world directly to become a counter guardian, skipping the heroic spirit phase of most others servants. (Normal steps are heroic spirit->counter guardian->servant).

You keep bringing that up but I'm sure it's wrong. He was obviously human because you see him as a person during the events of the game. But more importantly, there isn't a ladder to go through, those terms are not mutually exclusive.

Eirai - All heroes on the throne
Servant - All eirai summoned during the Grail Wars
** The word Servant implies someone who is forced to serve. The term only applies to summoned Eirai.
Counter Guardian - Someone who has made a pact with Akasha to become an Eirai.

Aside from the counter force, the technical difference between Archer and other Eirai is that they get their essence from the collective hopes of humanity. Archer instead gains his essence from Akasha.

My point is that generally fame and Akasha are two different ways to wind up on the throne. Saber, in attempting to become a guardian after becoming an Eirai is an exception and not the standard.

He was so twisted after many summonings because all the situations he was summoned to only requires him to kill, kill, kill and kill all the minority to save the majority.

It's actually surprising how well he holds up considering what he's been through. That guy has spectacular mental fortitude; It wouldn't be surprising if he could take being dunked in the grail without corrupting.

[iamandragon]

You keep bringing that up but I'm sure it's wrong. He was obviously human because you see him as a person during the events of the game. But more importantly, there isn't a ladder to go through, those terms are not mutually exclusive.

Eirai - All heroes on the throne
Servant - All eirai summoned during the Grail Wars
** The word Servant implies someone who is forced to serve. The term only applies to summoned Eirai.
Counter Guardian - Someone who has made a pact with Akasha to become an Eirai.

Aside from the counter force, the technical difference between Archer and other Eirai is that they get their essence from the collective hopes of humanity. Archer instead gains his essence from Akasha. [different paths to become servants.

My point is that generally fame and Akasha are two different ways to wind up on the throne. Saber, in attempting to become a guardian after becoming an Eirai is an exception and not the standard.

Well at least for the servants seen in the 4th and 5th HG War, with Saber and Archer as exceptions, they all become heroic spirits first, while the two took

It's actually surprising how well he holds up considering what he's been through. That guy has spectacular mental fortitude; It wouldn't be surprising if he could take being dunked in the grail without corrupting.
But that is probably he is slightly twisted to begin with. You hardly see anyone else with a sense of justice and never-dying-body like Shirou anywhere in the Nasuverse...

[Blade_Lord]

Becuase Archer was never a human in his life time--he made a pact with the world directly to become a counter guardian, skipping the heroic spirit phase of most others servants. (Normal steps are heroic spirit->counter guardian->servant). He was so twisted after many summonings because all the situations he was summoned to only requires him to kill, kill, kill and kill all the minority to save the majority.
What are you saying(assuming he comes from fate route) he makes a pact with the world to become counter guardian after the series?By the way who is Akasha??

[rastilin]

What are you saying(assuming he comes from fate route)

Everything points to him coming from a route that is almost exactly the same as fate. The only differing detail seems to be that Saber chose to keep pursuing her dream. There's the question of who was Rin's servant during Archer's grail war, but there's no reason why it couldn't be Archer himself, there is no point in which he was not on the throne of heroes.

he makes a pact with the world to become counter guardian after the series?

Yes, in exchange for eternal servitude, Akasha will grant a position on the throne of heroes and one miracle. Or at least a way with which to acquire that miracle.

By the way who is Akasha??

In the nasuverse, Akasha is the spirit of the world; although that could be a different one.

[DarkHonour]

I'd prefer a kind of time paradox where Shirou saw his future in himself and that his fate is inevitable to become a counter-guardian even though he'll go back to his past to attempt to kill his past.

Maybe the branching off point of the alternate worlds is the part whether Sabers accept who she is or whether she chooses to pursue her dream. That's a good idea. :P

[ShinMasaki]

If I may...it is an inactive thread, but I feel I have to intervene on some things here, having just finished all paths in Fate/Stay Night and am now beginning my tour through Hollow/Ataraxia.

The typical hero is a hero because of deeds that they have done that immortalizes them in the hearts of people. This applies to both heroes and anti-heroes. Evil spirits immortalized by fear in the hearts and minds of people can also be summoned as heroic spirits as well. The tales of their abilities and deeds is what created heroic spirits out of people.

Emiya Shirou became the Heroic Spirit of Archer for the Fifth Holy Grail War. Emiya however, had no stories of bravery. Emiya Shirou acted on his beliefs and saved people at the cost of himself. People questioned his motives for his actions because he had no reason to do so. There was no reward and he didn't save people to feel better about himself, he did it just because and people looked down on him because of it.

This pact with the world is true, according to events stated in UBW. In the future following the Fate path, Emiya Shirou uses his abilities to protect humanity living by his ideal of becoming a superhero to mankind, where nobody will be sad, everything will be alright.

There came a time when a natural disaster occurred that Emiya was unable to save anyone. Even though the amount in danger was a mere hundred something people, he vowed to save them. Unable to save the people, he made a contract with the world. In exchange for compensation at that moment, he would become a heroic spirit for the world. His desire, of course, is the safety of the people who originally were to die. The people were saved and the contract was made.

When Emiya Shirou died, his soul was already forfeit to the world for use as a Heroic Spirit. In the end, he was made into a scapegoat for a war and executed for the crimes of others. Originally he accepted this believing if he could use the power of the world to help him save people he would gladly hand his soul over for use as a Heroic Spirit/Guardian Spirit.

During the time when he was a spirit, he was summoned by the world several times over to save humanity. Over time, Heroic Spirit Emiya realized a truth about the Heroic Spirits. The Guardians, like himself, were called to save humanity during times of trouble where the existence of the species was at stake. It was always humanity itself that threatened its own existence and he was forced to kill people to save people.

In time, he cursed himself for his ideal. After being summoned and fixing the wrongs done by humanity, the Heroic Spirit faded. His memories left but the experiences remained. He had to kill in order to save. Doomed for the rest of eternity to live with that sin weighing on his existence, Emiya did as was his duty. He wasn't a 'savior of humanity', he was merely a 'cleaner' cleaning up the mess made by humanity. He opted for the quickest route, over time, killing the few in order to save the many. In the end he was betrayed by his own ideal.

Archer becomes a heroic spirit and is summoned by Rin because she uses her pendant as the catalyst for the summon. However, Archer already has Rin's pendant. Emiya dies from Lancer and Rin uses the power stored in the pendant to revive him leaving the necklace behind. Emiya keeps the necklace believing it to be important after he wakes. After trading his life to become a heroic spirit upon his death, Emiya still has the pendant keepsake and it becomes the reason for him being summoned by Rin in the Holy Grail War.

Feeling enmity towards humanity and at himself especially for vowing to become a Heroic Spirit, he dreamed of the once in a lifetime chance of correcting his past mistakes by killing his previous self. Knowing that the him that is Archer and the him that is past Emiya are two different people he knows that the death of Emiya will probably not free him from his torture as a Heroic Spirit.

As a Heroic Spirit vowed to the Earth to protect humanity, even the power of the Holy Grail would not free him of his fate; however he believes to himself that if Emiya were to die there is the chance that the world might correct the paradox of past Emiya dead and future Emiya alive. However, he knows this to be a dim hope so he decides to kill Emiya by his own hands hoping that with the increased strain on the paradox being himself (future) killing himself (past) will force the power of the paradox to override the power of the contract.

In the end, Emiya's (past) resolve and determination to follow through with his ideal and live sharing the dream of Kiritsugu breaks through to Archer with Archer admitting defeat to his past self and allowing him to live. The existence of Archer in the UBW path ends with him accepting his role as a guardian of humanity once more still hoping for the time when he can help save humanity but still allow things to end happily for both sides, without him having to take more lives in order to save it.

It's actually surprising how well he holds up considering what he's been through. That guy has spectacular mental fortitude; It wouldn't be surprising if he could take being dunked in the grail without corrupting.

Judging from the way Archer acts in each story path of Fate/Stay Night, I would have to say Archer's point of origin would have to be the Fate story path. Emiya Shirou in UBW and Heavens Feel are different Emiyas than the one that turned into Archer.

If you recall from the series or the game in the Fate story path, at the end, Emiya Shirou does in fact get immersed in the 'mud' contents of the Holy Grail, the tainted essence. As such, Archer has been 'dunked' in the contents of the Holy Grail and retained his sanity and composure, in fact his resolution and determination actually repelled the 6 billion curses of the Holy Grail (with some help from Avalon).


I realize that this thread has died down with little activity, but if the previous writers were still questioning things about Archer, I feel obligated to respond with my info.

On a side note, Hollow/Ataraxia is so confusing...far worse than Kagetsu Tohya. I've gone through the scenario several times without any real idea of where I'm supposed to end up. I have learned a bit about the Holy Grail and the reason for its corruption but little beyond what is already stated in Heavens Feel of Fate/Stay Night.

[Paladinoras]

If I may...it is an inactive thread, but I feel I have to intervene on some things here, having just finished all paths in Fate/Stay Night and am now beginning my tour through Hollow/Ataraxia.

The typical hero is a hero because of deeds that they have done that immortalizes them in the hearts of people. This applies to both heroes and anti-heroes. Evil spirits immortalized by fear in the hearts and minds of people can also be summoned as heroic spirits as well. The tales of their abilities and deeds is what created heroic spirits out of people.

Emiya Shirou became the Heroic Spirit of Archer for the Fifth Holy Grail War. Emiya however, had no stories of bravery. Emiya Shirou acted on his beliefs and saved people at the cost of himself. People questioned his motives for his actions because he had no reason to do so. There was no reward and he didn't save people to feel better about himself, he did it just because and people looked down on him because of it.

This pact with the world is true, according to events stated in UBW. In the future following the Fate path, Emiya Shirou uses his abilities to protect humanity living by his ideal of becoming a superhero to mankind, where nobody will be sad, everything will be alright.

There came a time when a natural disaster occurred that Emiya was unable to save anyone. Even though the amount in danger was a mere hundred something people, he vowed to save them. Unable to save the people, he made a contract with the world. In exchange for compensation at that moment, he would become a heroic spirit for the world. His desire, of course, is the safety of the people who originally were to die. The people were saved and the contract was made.

When Emiya Shirou died, his soul was already forfeit to the world for use as a Heroic Spirit. In the end, he was made into a scapegoat for a war and executed for the crimes of others. Originally he accepted this believing if he could use the power of the world to help him save people he would gladly hand his soul over for use as a Heroic Spirit/Guardian Spirit.

During the time when he was a spirit, he was summoned by the world several times over to save humanity. Over time, Heroic Spirit Emiya realized a truth about the Heroic Spirits. The Guardians, like himself, were called to save humanity during times of trouble where the existence of the species was at stake. It was always humanity itself that threatened its own existence and he was forced to kill people to save people.

In time, he cursed himself for his ideal. After being summoned and fixing the wrongs done by humanity, the Heroic Spirit faded. His memories left but the experiences remained. He had to kill in order to save. Doomed for the rest of eternity to live with that sin weighing on his existence, Emiya did as was his duty. He wasn't a 'savior of humanity', he was merely a 'cleaner' cleaning up the mess made by humanity. He opted for the quickest route, over time, killing the few in order to save the many. In the end he was betrayed by his own ideal.

Archer becomes a heroic spirit and is summoned by Rin because she uses her pendant as the catalyst for the summon. However, Archer already has Rin's pendant. Emiya dies from Lancer and Rin uses the power stored in the pendant to revive him leaving the necklace behind. Emiya keeps the necklace believing it to be important after he wakes. After trading his life to become a heroic spirit upon his death, Emiya still has the pendant keepsake and it becomes the reason for him being summoned by Rin in the Holy Grail War.

Feeling enmity towards humanity and at himself especially for vowing to become a Heroic Spirit, he dreamed of the once in a lifetime chance of correcting his past mistakes by killing his previous self. Knowing that the him that is Archer and the him that is past Emiya are two different people he knows that the death of Emiya will probably not free him from his torture as a Heroic Spirit.

As a Heroic Spirit vowed to the Earth to protect humanity, even the power of the Holy Grail would not free him of his fate; however he believes to himself that if Emiya were to die there is the chance that the world might correct the paradox of past Emiya dead and future Emiya alive. However, he knows this to be a dim hope so he decides to kill Emiya by his own hands hoping that with the increased strain on the paradox being himself (future) killing himself (past) will force the power of the paradox to override the power of the contract.

In the end, Emiya's (past) resolve and determination to follow through with his ideal and live sharing the dream of Kiritsugu breaks through to Archer with Archer admitting defeat to his past self and allowing him to live. The existence of Archer in the UBW path ends with him accepting his role as a guardian of humanity once more still hoping for the time when he can help save humanity but still allow things to end happily for both sides, without him having to take more lives in order to save it.



Judging from the way Archer acts in each story path of Fate/Stay Night, I would have to say Archer's point of origin would have to be the Fate story path. Emiya Shirou in UBW and Heavens Feel are different Emiyas than the one that turned into Archer.

If you recall from the series or the game in the Fate story path, at the end, Emiya Shirou does in fact get immersed in the 'mud' contents of the Holy Grail, the tainted essence. As such, Archer has been 'dunked' in the contents of the Holy Grail and retained his sanity and composure, in fact his resolution and determination actually repelled the 6 billion curses of the Holy Grail (with some help from Avalon).


I realize that this thread has died down with little activity, but if the previous writers were still questioning things about Archer, I feel obligated to respond with my info.

On a side note, Hollow/Ataraxia is so confusing...far worse than Kagetsu Tohya. I've gone through the scenario several times without any real idea of where I'm supposed to end up. I have learned a bit about the Holy Grail and the reason for its corruption but little beyond what is already stated in Heavens Feel of Fate/Stay Night.

Well, Hollow/Ataraxia is only good for its last scene. ..

And Archer's life is pretty much known to all by now..

I never understood the part about him dying though. .

If he is so damn good, how did he get executed?

[ShinMasaki]

Well, Hollow/Ataraxia is only good for its last scene. ..

And Archer's life is pretty much known to all by now..

I never understood the part about him dying though. .

If he is so damn good, how did he get executed?

He allowed himself to be executed for the crimes of others. Sure he was good, but if he was able to sacrifice his life to allow everyone else to be happy, he went with it. It made everyone else happy to think that there was a scapegoat that they could blame for the problems. He needed a better New Years' Resolution...

[Paladinoras]

He allowed himself to be executed for the crimes of others. Sure he was good, but if he was able to sacrifice his life to allow everyone else to be happy, he went with it. It made everyone else happy to think that there was a scapegoat that they could blame for the problems. He needed a better New Years' Resolution...

Well, that is just. . .stupid. Seriously. No wonder Archer hated his ideal over time.

Well, at any rate, did they ever explain how he got all those weapons? I know he replicated them, but if he never saw them, how can he replicate them?

[kaizer63]

Well, that is just. . .stupid. Seriously. No wonder Archer hated his ideal over time.

Well, at any rate, did they ever explain how he got all those weapons? I know he replicated them, but if he never saw them, how can he replicate them?


It's also how Archer decided he would best be able to use his life. And for his weapons--he got to watch a few Gilgamesh sword spams in his own timeline too. Not to mention being summoned all over the place as a CG would rack up a few more. And K&B were supposed to come from something related to the temple in Fuyuki if I remember correctly.

[Paladinoras]

It's also how Archer decided he would best be able to use his life. And for his weapons--he got to watch a few Gilgamesh sword spams in his own timeline too. Not to mention being summoned all over the place as a CG would rack up a few more. And K&B were supposed to come from something related to the temple in Fuyuki if I remember correctly.

Man, too bad. UBW is by far the coolest and most powerful Noble Phantasm. . ever.

They should make an Archer route.. .

[ShinMasaki]

Man, too bad. UBW is by far the coolest and most powerful Noble Phantasm. . ever.

They should make an Archer route.. .

:twitch:

I do believe that's the UBW route in Fate/Stay Night. UBW is definitely an awesome spell...it's not really a Noble Phantasm. It's a reality marble, a projection of the mage's magic upon the world itself. It's not a Noble Phantasm because...Shirou can (and does) cast Unlimited Blade Works...it's not limited to just Heroic Spirit Archer

Also, UBW only creates copies of swords seen, it doesn't mean that he can use their abilities. In short, he's much like Gilgamesh, able to summon them but not proficient in their use. His only real attack style is the one that focuses on the usage of Kanshou and Bakuya or his archery skill.

[kaizer63]

:twitch:


Also, UBW only creates copies of swords seen, it doesn't mean that he can use their abilities. In short, he's much like Gilgamesh, able to summon them but not proficient in their use. His only real attack style is the one that focuses on the usage of Kanshou and Bakuya or his archery skill.


Archer is only kind of like Gilgamesh in that while Gil. is an "owner" Archer is a "faker" and actually CAN use the weapons to their greatest ability, as long as there's no requirement in the legend that he doesn't meet. (That limitation is why Shirou can only use the Caliburn special attack while Saber is also holding the sword) Part of UBW is tracing the history of the weapon and that includes every time it's ever been wielded and he's able to "download" that skill for himself, though it only applies to that specific weapon (and its more like the weapons are moving on their own).

It's for that very reason that Shirou DOES use Nine-lives Blade works, Archer threatens to use an Excaliblast, and is also how, in the anime, Shirou learns to use Kanshou and Byakuya so quickly.

[Shadow Kira01]

Archer's fighting abilities can almost be called copycats as that he doesn't have any originals.


Unlimited Blade Works is generally the fake version of Gilgamesh's special attack as that Shiro has a similar ability to Sharingan of the Uchiha clan. After the battle with Gilgamesh in which Shiro was easily defeated, he learned to image that attack and it became Unlimited Blade Works but unlike Gilgamesh, those weapons are not the real thing but only copies that will disappear very quickly as his mana depletes.

Kanshou & Bakuya are generally the dual swords which Shiro image due to his encounter with Archer. In other words, these pair of unique dual swords is a creation born out of the time loop. If Archer never went back in time, Shiro would never have seen the blades to image it and thus, Archer wouldn't be using it..

Caladbolg II is generally a fusion image of Gilgamesh's sword and Lancer's Gae Bolg.


Although this makes Archer looks lame but oh well...

[rastilin]

Archer's fighting abilities can almost be called copycats as that he doesn't have any originals.

He does have a few originals.

Crane Wing Strike
Broken Phantasm (debatably)
True Eye of the Mind
Clairvoyance

The point is that EMIYA desired to follow Kiritsugu's path in becoming the most perfect killer. EMIYA's frightening because he doesn't do it for style or honor or because he enjoys fighting, for him it's all about efficiency.

EDIT: Incidentally, you're spectacularly wrong about UBW. Spectacularly.
EDIT2: Also, K&B are swords that have their own legend. They're not something the show made up.
EDIT3: Kaldbolg is not a fusion of anything, it's Kaldbolg crafted to be fired from a bow.