The Ontology of Haruhi Suzumiya

[Psieye]

You know, I've never scanned the OP in so much detail as this before... After the title and before the Starry Run sequence are a lot of formulae written in white (hence hard to read). I could spot:

Haruhi Power Walking shot (focussing on her skirt/mid-body)
Electron-positron orbits
The Capital Lambda symbol

Haruhi Power Walking shot (focussing just above her head)
- Chemical formula for a Benzene ring (along with its formula written out compact form: C6H6)
- t_universe (presumably a Cosmology equation)
- Planck's Constant (i.e. h-bar) in [J s] units
- Some geometric series summing to infinity
- D = 0.4 + 0.3 x 2^n (not sure what this is an equation of)
- Schrodinger's equation written in Dirac Notation
- N = R^0 x f_p x n_e x f_l(?) x f_i(?) x f_c x f (this seems somewhat familiar but I can't quite pinpoint it...)
- H(x) = - SUM [for all x within the set X] (......) (couldn't read all of this but I don't quite recognise that x within X set condition. Maybe a Hamiltonian?)

Haruhi Cheerleader sequence
English + Kanji + Standard form representations (i.e. 10^3, 10^6, etc) of orders of magnitude going upwards (up to Septillion and higher)

Mikuru Cheerleader sequence
- Schrodinger's equation applied to a potential well
- E^2 = c^2 p^2 -> (i h-bar d/dt)^2 c^2.... (etc etc etc) (Normally it's E^2 = c^2 p^2 + m^2 c^4 so this is some expression for a massless particle - likely a photon)
- Expression for the time-dependance of wave functions (though they're using d^2/dq^2 where q is a generalised space coordinate)
- h-bar = h/2*Pi (standard notation this)
- E = mc^2
- A partial differential equation used in Thermodynamics (I think that's S for Entropy and u for Internal Energy... damn so rusty on this one)
- A probability expression
- Grad^2 spelled out (d^2/d(x_1)^2 + d^2/d(x_2)^2 + ... + d^2/d(x_n)^2)


... I'm probably the only one right now who's wishing Mikuru isn't blocking the background in this sequence.

Haruhi Banchou sequence
Kanji + Standard form representations for orders of magnitude this time heading towards the small scale (10^-15, -16, etc)


At this rate, the Haruhi OP will become my motivation for studying for my final Physics exams... XD

[panzerfan]

1. The electron would be in 1s2 config so... Helium, if its stable or an unstable hydrogen ion...
2. http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html

3. There's also a conversion table for metric unit to their Chinese/Japanese written equivilents. This is shown in the cheerleading scene. Extremas all are taken from buddhist terminalogy.

一、十、百、千、萬、億、兆、京、垓、秭、穰、溝、澗、正、載、極、恆河沙、阿僧祇、那由他、不可思議、無 量大數

一 10E0, 十 10E1, 百 10E2, 千 10E3, 萬 10E4, 億 10E8, 兆 10E12, 京 10E16, 垓 10E20、秭 10E24, 穰、10E28, 溝 10E32, 澗 10E36, 正 10E40, 載 10E44, 極 10E48, 恆河沙 10E52, 阿僧祇10E56, 那由他10E60, 不可思議 10E64, 無量大數 10E68


分、釐、毫、絲、忽、微、纖、沙、塵、埃、渺、莫、模糊、逡巡、須臾、瞬息、彈指、刹那、六德、空虛、清靜 , 阿賴羅, 涅槃寂靜

分 10E-1, 釐 10E-2, 毫 10E-3, 絲 10E-4, 忽 10E-5, 微 10E-6, 纖10E-7, 沙 10E-8, 塵 10E-9, 埃 10E-10, 渺 10E-11, 莫 10E-12, 模糊 10E-13, 逡巡 10E-14, 須臾 10E-15, 瞬息 10E-16, 彈指 10E-17, 刹那 10E-18, 六德 10E-19, 空虛 10E-20, 、清靜 10E-21, 阿賴羅 10E-22, 涅槃寂靜 10E-24

-----------------

(now the English equivelent of this table)

Uni, deca, hecto, kilo, mega, giga, tera, peta, exa, zetta, yotta.

One, ten, hundred, thousand, million, milliard, billion, billiard, trillion, trilliard, quadrillion.
One, ten, hundred, thousand, million, billion, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion, sextillion, septillion

10E0, 10E1, 10E2, 10E3, 10E6, 10E9, 10E12, 10E15, 10E18, 10E21, 10E24


deci, centi, milli, micro, nano, pico, femto, atto, zemtp, yocto.

Tenth, hundredth, thousandth, millionth, milliardth, billionth, billiardth, trillionth, trilliardth, quadrillionth
Tenth, hundredth, thousandth, millionth, billionth, trillionth, quadrillionth, sextillionth, septillionth.

10E-1, 10E-2, 10E-3, 10E-6, 10E-9, 10E-12, 10E-15, 10E-18, 10E-21, 10E-24

-----------------
10E68 is infinity, 10E64 is incredable and 10E52 is like sand of the Padma river bank. 10E48 is literally 'limit'.

10E-21 is tranquility...


There however exist far larger number. Googolplex for example is... 10E10E100. Googol is 10E100.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers

[Onizuka-GTO]

ok, don't get me started on the time theories.
At the last count there were five scientifically accepted hypothesis. (correct me if im wrong)

But only two types could support your theories on Mikuru,

#1. Multi-universe paradox branching.

I.e. Everytime you change the course of the establish time of event, your alteration creates a parallel alternative universe to accommodate your change, thus you will never ever be able to return to your future original distination.

#2. the other is that time is infinity mallable, but your personal self will continue to exist, dispite the change of time events thus you will exist in this new timeline yet still retain perfect memory of your original timeline history.

at this moment im not so sure which one the author is using, but it's a good chance its not going to be one of those two types that will allow your speculation.

ah, but then again, Hollywood always did like theory #2

ahh dammit. I give up on all this heavy topics, its not something i should be doing at 4am. >.<

[SoldierOfDarkness]

It's also not impossible that Mikuru is... her own mother!:twitch: It could also be that she should have been kyon and Haruhi's daughter, but because Mikuru went back in time, kyon falls in love with her instead, and she never existed on her native time plane!:eyespin: Isn't time travel great? :heh:

Seriously though, she'd probably be from too far in the future to be the daughter of any of the other characters. Great great granddaughter perhaps?

Professor - Damn you!
Fry - Aw don't worry, everything turned out ok, so, whose my grandfather?
Professor - YOU ARE!

When it comes to these time paradoxes the best thing to do is not think about them at all. Because when you think about it, then you get second thoughts about since it happened, then there would be no reason to travel through the past to do it and so forth.

Though is there any reason why Yuki spilled the beans in front of kyon?

And on another note,
Haruhi is pretty adament on that non-humans are more fun which is why she refuses dating normal guys....which got me thinking, was she introduced to Mai Hime episode 4 and Mai Otome episode 6 and other related stuff which I shouldn't mention on this board would be considered inappropiate?:heh: I mean if she defines that kind as fun then well....well she said it should be more fun

[melange]

Professor - Damn you!
Fry - Aw don't worry, everything turned out ok, so, whose my grandfather?
Professor - YOU ARE!

When it comes to these time paradoxes the best thing to do is not think about them at all. Because when you think about it, then you get second thoughts about since it happened, then there would be no reason to travel through the past to do it and so forth.

Though is there any reason why Yuki spilled the beans in front of kyon?

And on another note,
Haruhi is pretty adament on that non-humans are more fun which is why she refuses dating normal guys....which got me thinking, was she introduced to Mai Hime episode 4 and Mai Otome episode 6 and other related stuff which I shouldn't mention on this board would be considered inappropiate?:heh: I mean if she defines that kind as fun then well....well she said it should be more fun
Man you guys are getting ahead of yourselves. I think you'll get to wrap your heads around time paradoxes at some point but not so soon! :heh:

re: Yuki's revelation
It'll be explained later.

re: spoiler
Its highly likely someone is going to make a doujin of precisely that matter :heh:

[Cats]

Man you guys are getting ahead of yourselves. I think you'll get to wrap your heads around time paradoxes at some point but not so soon! :heh:

Look who's talking... your spoiler is disturbing the timeline and the natural balance of things :heh:

Well... I guess all the novel readers share Mikuru's point of view... as time travelers :heh:

Now to grant your wish and end the time paradoxes ;) :

I think the shows time traveling thing is based on Theory #3... the one that's not so used in movies ;) ...

Basically even if you go back in time you won't change a thing... because you are part of the timeline (of both timelines to be exact)... it's usually used in those movies where the idiot that goes back in time to correct something ends up the reason for it happening in the first place :heh:

And some proof to back it up...
This can't be stopped. Destiny was determined long ago.

[Vexx]

Look who's talking... your spoiler is disturbing the timeline and the natural balance of things :heh:

Well... I guess all the novel readers share Mikuru's point of view... as time travelers :heh:

Now to grant your wish and end the time paradoxes ;) :

I think the shows time traveling thing is based on Theory #3... the one that's not so used in movies ;) ...

Basically even if you go back in time you won't change a thing... because you are part of the timeline (of both timelines to be exact)... it's usually used in those movies where the idiot that goes back in time to correct something ends up the reason for it happening in the first place :heh:

And some proof to back it up...

Aye, thats my favorite .... but it basically implies that Free Will is an illusion or that the timeline is so resilient that free will choices are swamped out by the "inevitable tendencies". Physics-wise, the mutiple-verses of timelines seems to fit the available data the best though the debate is still on in science.

[npal]

Aye, thats my favorite .... but it basically implies that Free Will is an illusion or that the timeline is so resilient that free will choices are swamped out by the "inevitable tendencies". Physics-wise, the mutiple-verses of timelines seems to fit the available data the best though the debate is still on in science.

Isn't free will an illusion? :p

[Vexx]

Isn't free will an illusion? :p

I think the only place you can find "free will" anymore is in quantum mechanics, nonlinear dynamics, and complexity theory. Kind of like though you can map out the phase-space completely, but lots of interesting "unpredictable" stuff happens within those boundaries.

[panzerfan]

Well from what I remember, you can guarantee an event will occur sometime but you can never be sure as to when it'll happen in quantum mechanics.

(It's a good thing that Vexx is not Nanoha afterall, as an unrelated note)

[DragoonKain3]

I hate you all. :P

All this talk about time paradoxes has me not only reading a large portion of the time related articles in wiki, but also some VERY distantly related articles like evolution through sexual selection and about theories how our moon got created. >_<

[panzerfan]

I hate you all. :P

All this talk about time paradoxes has me not only reading a large portion of the time related articles in wiki, but also some VERY distantly related articles like evolution through sexual selection and about theories how our moon got created. >_<
Psyeye did alot of homework on the main Suzumiya Haruhi thread regarding the OP bits of equations that scrolls through the canvas, so it's not just you that ended up hitting the web/book.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26413&page=34. Sushi-Y, melange and a whole lot have spent days and lose sleep to provide information by-the-minute due to Haruhiism's irresistable pull, like a blackhole that has a schwarzschild radius that can swallow galaxies whole. The thing though is that the more you know, the more sense this series make. The power of Haruhi compels you to further yourself!

Although maybe... [The plot] is a puzzle, like a broken mirror. As you piece it together, you cut yourself. Your image keeps shifting, and you change with it. It could destroy you, drive you mad. It could set you free.

[Thelastguardian]

I've only seen one Haruhi doujin so far
Really? I have seen a few SH ero-doujins already (accidentally). Those artists are fast:heh:.


They scarred my mind premanetly. Now whenever I see the original manga, my mind remembers *cut off*

Well from what I remember, you can guarantee an event will occur sometime but you can never be sure as to when it'll happen in quantum mechanics.

Technically, the atoms that made up your whole body can disintergrate at this very second. So can the protons , neutrons, electrons, and other sub-particles in the Standard Model(they are, after all, inheriently unstable).

Furthermore (if you watched Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, you would know), it is conceviable that earth could teleport from its orbit into the event horizon of the black hole in the middle of Milky Way galaxy as you read this sentence.

Of course. This can happen only if the universe keeps on expanding until...everything disintegrates. All matters become energy, which spread evenly across the universe (entropy max and enthapy none).

[Onizuka-GTO]

talking of time theories, my favourite one, is that time will always gowe the way it's suppose to go, (anti-paradox) in that only major event changes at critical key points can change history.

i.e. if you kill some person, that was insignificant. time will eventually correct that anomally, it will not have what some people suggest a "domino" or "butterfly" effect. but if you say kill someone who will eventually shape a world, then that timeline will change.

[Kamui4356]

talking of time theories, my favourite one, is that time will always gowe the way it's suppose to go, (anti-paradox) in that only major event changes at critical key points can change history.
What's the point of time travel if you don't get to screw up history? I like the idea of being able to go back in time, do something minor, like eat an apple, and completely change the world. ;) It's much more interesting that way. Of course that also means time travel would likely be completely banned even if it were possible.:heh:

[celcius]

^ Butterfly effect, was it? The movie showed how just small changes in the past affected the future in a myriad of ways.
Anyhow, whatever the lead guy did, he still didn't win in any way. I guess the movie is also trying to say that eents cannot be altered.
I think this is turning into a pre-determinism discussion. Lol.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

^ Butterfly effect, was it? The movie showed how just small changes in the past affected the future in a myriad of ways.
Anyhow, whatever the lead guy did, he still didn't win in any way. I guess the movie is also trying to say that eents cannot be altered.
I think this is turning into a pre-determinism discussion. Lol.


Which one your talking about? The deleted scene is where he didn't win in any way. The cut version I would say he wins as everyone is safe and living the good life

What's the point of time travel if you don't get to screw up history? I like the idea of being able to go back in time, do something minor, like eat an apple, and completely change the world. It's much more interesting that way. Of course that also means time travel would likely be completely banned even if it were possible.

Remember what Homer's dad told him on his wedding,

"Son, if you ever travel back in time (Why would anyone tell that to their son on their wedding day?:heh: ) don't touch ANYTHING"

I was discussing time paradoxes with my history professor and she noted the only way to do that is to basically get drunk.:heh:

Though I'm curious where the show is going with this route, are they just going to be doing the episodes randomly?

[melange]

Though I'm curious where the show is going with this route, are they just going to be doing the episodes randomly?
Well speaking more on a meta-level and not touching the content of the plot itself... you can say the novels themselves, because they aren't written/arrayed in chronological order, make the reader jump around the SOS-dan timeline in the act of reading. For example, events A - B - C happen in order but the novels would go, Vol. 1 (A) -> Vol. 2 (C) -> Vol. 3 (B) etc.

As to how the anime itself is going to handle this... who knows? As was speculated by Sushi-Y in the Episode Prediction/Speculation thread, they may just rearrange things in chronological order - thus the supposed 'skipping' of the 2nd novel some people who obviously haven't read the novels were frothing at the mouth against.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Since when did banning not push people to do it the act that was banned? :p

Having time travel would be bad since irresponsible people would abuse it.
Everything has been abused by irresponsible people. And there is nothing you can do about that.

Tell me of one thing that exists that hasn't been abused?

The blame isn't on Time Travel, but on the irresponsible people. You can't un-invent something that has been discovered.

All that will happen is that only the irresponsible people will get to use the banned technologies, because those who do follow the rules are the only ones who will listen to the rules.

[celcius]

Yes, but the possibilities of time travel could increase the number of irresponsible people, seeing as they can just as easily go back and do something they had to do that they didn't do.

*erm* As long as events don't seem too awkward or chaotic, I don't think having episodes shown at random are that bad. For people who haven't read the novels (like me), I don't think they'd (we'd) notice any jump.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Yes, but the possibilities of time travel could increase the number of irresponsible people, seeing as they can just as easily go back and do something they had to do that they didn't do.

*erm* As long as events don't seem too awkward or chaotic, I don't think having episodes shown at random are that bad.
No one controls the possibilities of Time travel, in the same way no one controls the possibilities of E=mC^2
You can't hide the truth from the devious, but only from the innocent.

So how is the number of irresponsible people going to increase? Those who are responsible will stay responsible.

As for random order? Makes no differerence to me. It fits the style of the story, in that it would make things more interesting.;)

[panzerfan]

Well... maybe this is little consolation but at this moment to make a time machine require you to build something that is about 2x the length of Earth (and a bit wider) and you have to make this guy spin faster than the Earth to offset time dilation that we get as we revolve about the sun... keep in mind that it's a 1 way trip as well, and that's a ride everyone on Earth will partake.

There is 1 way around the spiral issue that we've been resorting. Push the technological envelope in any way in order to outdo the opposition. If usage and abuse is inevitable, one must change faster to compensate and to survive.

Otherwise you have to be the villain yourself. Instead of letting the world fail you, you rather fail the world. For there is no 1 human that is perfect to act as a true "honest broker".

Machiavelli's concept of detante > "There is no avoiding war; it is only postponed to the advantage of others" works as well, provided that you continually obtain 1 edge after the next to hold the adversary at bay. Strangely enough, this creates a stagnating scenario where no side moves and entrenchment occurs...



He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future. ~G.Orwell.
He who controls the past, commands the future. He who commands the future, conquers the past. ~Kane.

[panzerfan]

If that's your definition of how to control the future... it's cheaper to reprint all the history books ^_^

Well... as history shows, this is what every dictatorship does anyway. First emperor of China had the Confucian scholars killed and books burnt, Fujiwara when taken power did in fact conduct some radical things to the Buddhist sects in Japan, Hitler setup Youth camp and instituted Aryan research institute, Mao had his cultural revolution...

but's that's getting ahead to what we're out here to talk about.. Haruhi.

Haruhi's terrifyingly dangerous for altering the present, since... that defines both past and future by Orwell/Kane's words.

Hmm... going back to quantum.

We all know of light and waves. Light and wave, be it visible, UV, Inflared, radio... they are the same thing.
We all know that matter is in fact a form of energy. Energy can be expressed in terms of waves...
We all know that electricity is related to magneticism. Electricity and energy shares common unit of measurement in terms of heat (joule).
Matter and antimatter all can wind up as energy...


Einstein said "God does not play dice" in response to Quantum Mechanics. He used his inference with a reason.
For our intent and purposes, we can well say that everything is measured in possibility and distributions as absolute precision just doesn't happen... electron scanning microscope, by the time when it 'sees' an electron, would've knocked the electron out of orbit and you would end up with ... nothing.

Uncertainty principle on a macroscopic level is nearly never observable. Water cannot flow out of the cup due to how low the possibility of observing such a spectacle is, yet it does happen. It make take more than the estimated age of the universe before you can do what Miss Deep does in R.O.D, but there is a possibility.
This inconsistent views from the microscopic to macroscopic wreaks havoc if you want a theory that'll explain everything, going from why is it you're standing and not falling through the 'relatively' large amount of space between you and the very earth (subsequently, how do we do that if we wanted to?) to why is it black hole actually gives out EM wave... how is there any room to guess when everything works like clockwork when you deal with anything larger than an atom? Answering this stuff would explain alot of strange things happening in chemistry and biology from how it looks...

Then again, 'the only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible' and 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.'

I find it rather scary that I am actually reading into this stuff for no particular reason but to make sense of this anime...

[celcius]

Determinism deals with studying an object's behavior and trying to come up with a pattern. Take for example, the sun. We all know that it will rise at dawn, and it will set at dusk. We don't know the exact minutes and seconds though. Other factors are responsible for the varying times, and these are called noise. If a theory/school of thought (whatever) that focuses on finding a pattern provides accepts that there are random factors involved, I guess that more or less says that the world is "random". Due to a multitude of variables that affect objects, I highly think that anything can be measured with pinpoint precision. (WTF am I saying?)
I find it rather scary that I am actually reading into this stuff for no particular reason but to make sense of this anime...
No shi-? You mean you don't know this, cause you certainly sound like you do... I actually had to re-read your post to grasp that. (yeah, I wasn't listening back in class).

[panzerfan]

yea... I never did study quantum mechanics and it's been a long time since I had to do any physics.

Conclusion 1 from all of this is that insanity of random probability killed absolutism, but only relatively.
Conclusion 2 might be that distribution of likelihood should replace all the constants.
Conclusion 3 is that due to the principle of nonlocality, any 2 particles within this universe are not independent... subsequently means we can have an atom larger than this earth someday.

I assume then that the divine in effect manipulates the possibility of a myriad of factors and 'rigs' the game to make things like passing through wall happen.

The only place where we can see the understanding of our world breaking into pieces is within silicon chips. Even now we wind up with bits of information mysteriously vanishing into thin air and popping about in some other conduit. It doesn't show up since we're using more than 1 electon per bit but it's going there.

[Prodigious]

It's called quantum tunneling. And yes, it is an issue that gets worse as chips decrease in size. Or more precisely, as the insulator walls become thinner, it becomes increasingly likely that the electrons passing through the conduit will literally jump from inside the pathway to outside of it, even though there is a physical barrier in place. That's why the last few generations of cpus had considerable heat and power consumption issues(most notably the P4 Prescott cores). The electrons inside the chip basically leak out causing heat and requiring more energy to replace those lost electrons.

And we aren't heading towards using invidual electrons as bits. Not in traditional Turing computers at any rate. In quantum computing, the atom as a whole is used as an information medium, not just the electron. In theory, fundamental aspects of each atom such as its spin can be used to convey information, although all the details have yet to be worked out.

[panzerfan]

It feels almost as if to use anything observable state the items need to generate a noticable gravitational pull (an atom would do it). Thnx for the info on that as that would explain why is it that the Prescott and Palomino chips are hotter than the surface of the sun.

... and this stuff gets odder. It seems that time travel going back and forth is doable if you invoke the idea of 'manifold', 'Hilbert space' and superstring to explain everything although it is a long stretch. Damn. It makes me feel that gr.10-12 physics is lying about how things work a little...

[Kaoru Chujo]

This discussion is reminding me of the discussions we had in the Noein thread. That excellent show was based on a (somewhat loose) version of the many worlds interpretation of quantum theory.

At the quantum level, we have indeterminacy. I don't see this extending to the macroscopic level, as most science fiction versions of it do, but at the macroscopic level, we also have indeterminacy, because of non-linear dynamics/chaos theory/butterfly effect. So the future is supposedly impossible to predict, since (as in the Hitchhiker's Guyide) you'd have to run a computer the size of a world to predict a world.

So at the moment I come down on the side of free will (remember that?). Except that the freedom is everywhere, not just in our wills. Or something.

But maybe quantum theory is evolving away from many worlds. Wikipedia covers this ground very well. The articles on consistent histories and decoherence suggest that, yes, any quantum event is indeterminate, but that when countless events have to be consistent with each other in the real world, countless possibilities are eliminated. I'm more comfortable with there being a lot of possibilities left to be indeterminate among, but some people are looking for there to be only one real possibility: the universe we live in.

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

I'm thinking you guys should request a new thread called The Ontology of Suzumiya Haruhi.

[Adigard]

Agreed... the mods could easily transplate this topic into the new thread... beccause this topic will be lost in about... oh... 18 hours.

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

And consider the range of on-topic topics we could discuss, from physics …

Can you observe electrons skipping across Yuki’s knee socks without changing their trajectory?

to theology …

French kissing Haruhi: sacrilege or divine?

to microeconomics and psychology ...

Ruthlessly exploiting Mikuru for fun and profit.

[panzerfan]

well... taken from wiki and once we put them together...

* quantum indeterminacy, state of a system does not determine a unique collection of values for all its measurable properties.
* indeterminacy due to chaos as described in chaos theory ("Sensitive dependence on initial conditions").
* indeterminacy caused by limited powers of observation and integration of the facts.
* limitations due to the nature of human memory and thought processes.

and then summing up with S.Hawking's own conclusion...

"These quantum theories are deterministic in the sense that they give laws for the evolution of the wave with time. Thus if one knows the wave at one time, one can calculate it at any other time. The unpredictable, random element comes in only when we try to interpret the wave in terms of the positions and velocities of particles. But maybe this is our mistake: maybe there are no positions and velocities, but only waves. It is just that we try to fit the waves to our preconceived ideas of positions and velocities. The resulting mismatch is the cause of the apparent unpredictability."

We would have in conclusion that the existence of everything is just like how we define existence of self using "I think, therefore I am". Some physicists are going into the protoscience with this by putting quantum mechanics into the study of human mind and subsequently using the idea of curved space and folded space (roll several dimentions into a wee dot) to explain conscience and the strange nature between wave and matter over the macroscopic world.
...and theoratical physic becomes philosophy.


Another interesting explaination to why is it we human typically are dull and are square, thus failing to see quantum indeterminacy in a universe where the interminacy laps on top of one another going from microscopic to macroscopic. (von Neumann's crisis)

* Wigner's friend resolves the inconsistency by asserting that human consciousness not only measures the physical world, but physically changes it from an indeterminate state to an absolute environment. This is known as the Consciousness causes collapse theory. <- Esse est Percipi, to be is to be perceived!

* According to the Copenhagen interpretation, humans created the quantum state vector because it was the only known way to describe the subatomic world mathematically, but there is no catastrophe because quantum mechanics doesn't exist in any real sense. Think of Mikuru dialogue to Kyon about her own 'impact' to the present.

* The Many-worlds interpretation asserts that humans don't notice the indeterminate state of the universe because all possibilities but the one we observe happen in other dimensions that are beyond our ability to directly monitor.

* The Bohm interpretation avoids catastrophe and allows for determinism without splitting the universe into many worlds by asserting that the positions of particles are fixed by latent variables that are definite in cause and effect, but which can only be calculated in terms of probability by humans. (Like how that we don't know the exact formula for drop rate in MMORPG but we do know of the probability for drops)

* The Transactional interpretation allows for only one measurement while also permitting the existence of the entire wavefunction by requiring that the observer only detect the part of the source wave that phases positively with his own advanced wave. (We filter anything else as just noise... or we can't 'see' it)

Now we're finally heading back to the story premise of Haruhi :) I am moving this to speculation since... it's time to make a guess at the story.

[Catgirls]

ontology

Main Entry: on·tol·o·gy
Pronunciation: än-'tä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin ontologia, from ont- + -logia -logy

1 : a branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being

2 : a particular theory about the nature of being or the kinds of existents

[panzerfan]

I remember how a book actually illustrated classical mechanics using a game of baseball as example. Actually, baseball stadium has been used to describe the relative scale of the nucleus to the 'shell' of an atom. Position, velocity, acceleration and jerk are all evident in the game...

[Psieye]

*blinks* I didn't realise my one post spawned into this thread... Ok, I need to focus on my exams in 32 hours' time - means I'll get round to reading and replying here in 2+ days or so.

Mmm... didn't think I'd ever get the motivation to write about Time Travel theories again on these boards after all my posts from last summer were lost...

[CrowKenobi]

I remember how a book actually illustrated classical mechanics using a game of baseball as example. Actually, baseball stadium has been used to describe the relative scale of the nucleus to the 'shell' of an atom. Position, velocity, acceleration and jerk are all evident in the game...
And what's episode 4 about? :heh:

scary, ain't it? :p

[zalas]

Haruhi Power Walking shot (focussing just above her head)
- H(x) = - SUM [for all x within the set X] (......) (couldn't read all of this but I don't quite recognise that x within X set condition. Maybe a Hamiltonian?)
Pretty sure that's H(X) = -\sum_{x\in X} \log p(x) , which is the standard equation for informational entropy of a random variable X.

[Danj]

Haruhi Power Walking shot (focussing just above her head)
- N = R^0 x f_p x n_e x f_l(?) x f_i(?) x f_c x f (this seems somewhat familiar but I can't quite pinpoint it...)

I think you mean

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/c/5/7/c57fe678db3cb8c47ca58c85bd5d41c2.png

This is the Drake Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation), the equation which tells you the number of alien civilizations in our galaxy with which we might expect to be able to communicate. I seem to be one of a very small number of people who recognised this :heh:

[Danj]

Also, for anyone wishing to understand more about the physics and metaphysics of time travel, I highly recommend reading this article: SF Chronophysics (http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/chrono.html).

[panzerfan]

(2 ppl had u beat to that drake equation ^^)

The time travel is interesting to look back at Asahina Mikuru, although it still leaves the rest of the SOS-brigade's impact unaddressed.

[panzerfan]

I copied and pasted the conversation on "haruhi marble" here. (As long as we don't go into comparison of which anime's better, we should be able to have some fun with this)

YUKI.N>I am the backbone of my network. I have closed over a thousand ports; not aware of latency, nor aware of noise... yet there has been no disconnect... so I pray. Unlimited Dimensional Interface.Hilarious! :D Though... Yuki does know of "noise" :heh:

(Working right now to amend that. However in my defense I am sure Archer certainly knows of life and death.
Edit. Decides to keep most of it as-is. Sounds funnier this way)

O yea, that bat and how battered it got is very hilerious.

rofl, someone must have had access to the "Haruhi Marble"

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1623/bscap00017yi.th.jpg
I can only assume that this would be the archer fight that was so rudely cut off in FSN :heh:

"Reality Marble" huh... sounds fitting :D Actually wouldn't be a bad way to describe some of the things that will show up... :heh:

(ok, now you got me started)

I wonder what "noble phantasm" the bat's supposively modelled after?
(I never thought of the enclosed space as a reality marble but it makes strange sense somehow...)
Supposively Reality marble's a trick that only top mage/demon or divine agents could pull off. It causes huge stress to the 'current' state and holding the thing together is nothing less than herculean in effort since reality literally comes crashing down on you on all sides. There's supposively an alternate version which in description is kinda like what Haruhi could do... like a reality marble+. Of course this actually fits Haruhi... still... egad.

Suddenly, the image of a crossover pic in the picture thread flashes before my mind.
edit. I can now picture Yuki muttering those lines in my sig >.<

Quickly! a .gif needs to be made at [17:39] to [17:41] (Yuki chanting at light speed) with panzerfan's sig typing out on the left side! :heh:

The bat is obviously excalibur as it is the sword that brings promised victory! (as noted by the 11 homeruns)

Although my knowledge of Fate/Stay Night is quite limited...
Haruhi's ability to spontaneously 'create' new information, i.e. information that does not already exist, is not unlike Shirou's ability to materialize elements that do not exist.
Should we shift this to the Speculation or Ontology thread? :heh:

Actually you've about nailed it on the head.
the only real difference is that Shirou needs to concentrate in oder to "image" things whereas Haruhi just kinda randomly makes stuff happen

No! No! No!

The bat must be Gáe Bolg - "The Spear of Impaling Barbed Death"

The bat already decided where the ball is going to go before it was even swung, so the predetermined 100% accuracy must mean it is Gáe Bolg, the spear that cannot miss.:D

(I am going to work on that gif afterall. This is gonna be fun...)

Maybe Avalon instead of Escalibur?
This is truly a UFO discovery. Haruhi could do that out of thin air while Yuki has to chant, in uberspeed no less to pull off a reality marble. Wait till we see Itsuki in action... nihaha. (As an aside, Yuki-styled unlimited (insert here) is just to die for! Now I want to see a hypothetical fight b/w Shirou/Archer vs Yuki)

Yuki's Reality Marble: UBW - Unlimited Book Works?:heh:
Mustn't forget thatAsakura Ryoko can do the same...

(more like unlimited Information compendium). Let us not forget of the Archer vs. Shirou fight...

You may want to indicate which series you're spoiling in your spoilers :heh:

sorry >.< That would be from the game in the Unlimited Blade Works Scenario

Since I'm familiar with both series, I can say that Yuki will most likely come out on top. If we pretend that everyone in the world is a "game player", then Yuki would be the one playing with every possible hack and cheats that ever existed turned on.

=================
Anyway, I got the hi-res version now. *is happy*
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1124/ep400002px.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ep400002px.jpg)
Yuki kaaii~
←is a big Yuki fan.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/565/ep400022lm.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ep400022lm.jpg)http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9365/ep400034hw.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ep400034hw.jpg)
Now that I've thought about it, both the anime and the mangas didn't use Itou-san's original design for the 神人, did they? Itou-san's original version was more... human-like. Eh.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/6571/ep400052yw.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ep400052yw.jpg)
moe experts will probably find this "just-before-bite" shot more moe than the actual bite shot?

Does that mean Haruhi is the Golden Pikachu? (FSN in-joke.:heh: )

oh please do not let this thread degenerate into stupid comparisons between one set of anime (Fate/stay night) to another (Suzumiya Haruhi). They are different anime with different story, so it's pointless to discuss about such things. I don't want to see such a magnificent sakuga-quality anime degrade itself into the likes that I see over at the Naruto forum.

[Diaphanus]

Anyhow, whatever the lead guy did, he still didn't win in any way. I guess the movie is also trying to say that eents cannot be altered.
Heh heh, and yet he did alter events, and quite significantly! It's just that he couldn't control everything that happened after an alteration.

[Psieye]

Ok... gonna split this post in 2 because they're huge and "Reality Marble" has nothing to do with the Physics I'm going to talk on below:

Psyeye did alot of homework on the main Suzumiya Haruhi thread regarding the OP bits of equations that scrolls through the canvas, so it's not just you that ended up hitting the web/book.Ah actually, most of the time spent for that post was on rewinding/pausing/slow viewing the OP to note down the equations themselves. Everything I've written about them I knew already - I'm still an Undergraduate Physicist (who did some Chemistry in his first year too). ^^;;


Quantum Computers

We're still trying to find a suitable candidate for use as a Qubit. Individual electrons (trapped in tiny potential wells that we call Quantum Dots) are an option, as well as whole atoms (e.g. doped atoms of one element in the lattice of another). What's manipulated can either be the spin or the energy level (ground state vs 1st excited state) of the qubit candidate in question - something that can be in a quantum superposition of both while unobserved. Superconducting qubits are another option - where the current goes clockwise and anti-clockwise at the same time, or where there's an extra pair of electrons in the superconducting loop or not.

Well, if anyone's really interested I can email you the Literature Review I did on this topic last year. Let's move onto other topics.


Uncertainty Principle

Delta_x * Delta_p >= h_bar/2 (in one dimension) which is an absolutely tiny number (~10^-34 in magnitude for standard SI units)

where Delta_x = uncertainty in Position
and Delta_p = uncertainty in Momentum


That h_bar/2 is so small is why the Uncertainty Principle is only significant for extreme microscopic levels. At the macroscopic, if I look at a book on the table and measure where it is, you know I can't tell whether it's 13.612951240351 cm away from the table edge or 13.612951240352 cm {Disclaimer: this figure's order of magnitude of uncertainty was made up: it gets my point across even if inaccurate} - and frankly I won't care. That same level of uncertainty (10^-14 m, with appropriate corresponding uncertainty for momentum of ~10^-20 kg m/s) is absolutely huge for an isloated lone proton though (which is ~10^-15 m in size) - that proton could be anywhere within 10 lengths of itself at a given time (while it's moving).

Theoretically, the above equation says it is possible to know exactly where a quantum sized particle is at a given time - but you'd have no idea how fast and in what direction it's travelling. Conversely, you can know the exact speed and mass of a given particle, but you'd have no idea where in this Universe it was located. Normally, we have a balance of uncertainty between the two.


Hmm, I guess the only reason this is relevant to Haruhi-ism is:
because our interpretations of Quantum Mechanics influences how we theorise time travel - more on that below.


Drake Equation
I think you mean

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/c/5/7/c57fe678db3cb8c47ca58c85bd5d41c2.png

This is the Drake Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation), the equation which tells you the number of alien civilizations in our galaxy with which we might expect to be able to communicate. I seem to be one of a very small number of people who recognised this :heh:

*nods* yeah, I must say I was surprised when kj1980 first mentioned this (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=536877&postcount=663). It is indeed more important for directing our thoughts than on any answer it can give (which has ludicrously huge error ranges).


Information Entropy
Pretty sure that's H(X) = -\sum_{x\in X} \log p(x) , which is the standard equation for informational entropy of a random variable X.

Ah, that would make sense. Thanks for the pointer.
(Um yeah, I never took the Information Theory courses so not much I can say here unless I go read up on it ^^;;)


Main Topic: Time Travel
Also, for anyone wishing to understand more about the physics and metaphysics of time travel, I highly recommend reading this article: SF Chronophysics (http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/chrono.html).

That's a good link, and I'll base my talk on Time Travel on it. First, I believe that there's only 2 core interpretations of Time Travel and that everything else (which isn't sloppy for the sake of narrative) is some fusion or subset of the two: the One Timeline Only version (Type 1 as described above) and the Parallel Worlds version (Type 4). Therefore Type 3 is just a sub-set of Type 4 (think - it's identical if you only ever focus on one timeline at a time in the narrative), whereas Type 2 is a sloppy One Timeline version which is convenient for SF but messy from a Physicist's point of view. Yeah, I really hate "OMG, you stopped his parents from getting together! That person will disappear in X amount of time unless we bring them back together!!!" plots which use Type 2 AND delayed causality.



One Timeline Only theory can be uncomfortable for some people since it can be closely linked with the concept of Predetermined Fate. It can also get really messy with Time Paradoxes. Though mind you, think about this if you're uncomfortable with Fate/Hitsuzen:

How do you tell apart whether Free Will exists or Fate is instead true? If all attempts to read Fate (e.g. fortune telling etc) are interpreted as trying to approximate a model for Fate and get some readings out of it (hey, this is exactly what Science is when applied to everything else - belief in your theory and trying to get some meaningful predictions/measurements out of it. Disclaimer: I can lay down arguments and debates without necessarily having a strong opinion on what I'm saying, so don't assume my personal opinion is X just because i'm writing about it), then any instances of 'defying Fate' is due to an error in reading Fate than Fate failing. All you have is Causality - whether you believe it's applied only at the individual decision scale or in a Fate scale, you can't actually differentiate between the two conclusively. In other words, Fate vs Free Will is a matter of personal belief and both sides can take up Frames of Thought where they can hold to their belief without shaking.


Parallel Worlds is mirrored by Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Noein covered this concept quite nicely - time travel is actually an act of hopping dimensions to a parallel world which is exactly like your own past (maybe not quite but almost) up to the point where you pop in. If you "go back in time to fix a problem", then you're actually escaping to another world and saving that instead of your original one. If you then "return to the present and enjoy the world without said problem" then you're not really back in your original world, but yet another world (but you can't tell the difference and just don't care). Alternatively, maybe you choose to stay in that timeline that you 'fixed the problem' in - then you've just migrated to this timeline for a happier existence (and you can co-exist with the 'you' in this dimension once you get over it as it's not really 'you', but a perfect clone of you). If a story ever bothered to look back at the original timeline, it would be depressing as you'd have disappeared instead of 'time travelling' (assuming you can never make it back - if you do then you just realise you've been helping some other timeline and the problem hasn't changed here).


A friend of mine came up with one very interesting thought regarding this "quantum forking" of timelines and the Butterfly Effect: the infinity of different timelines will all converge again at the End of Time when the Universe 'dies'. To clarify, first we must make the assumption that (or more accurately, 'choose to only consider the subset of Universes which') all timelines share the same fundamental constants and laws of Physics (else we can't even begin to conceive and debate on these different Universes - gotta have some ground of familiarity afterall). If all timelines have the same Origin (Big Bang, or some other creation theory), then ultimately they'll all have the same End (whether it's entropic heat death of the Universe or Big Crunch, that doesn't matter - point is all timelines will do one or the other). Therefore while we're forking and branching out timelines all the time, somehow we have to bring them back together again. And one way of doing that is noting that not all changes produce a Butterfly Effect:

Imagine 2 different timelines where in both I put a book down to write a letter then pick it back up again. An infinity of other parallel worlds aside, if these two particular timelines only differ by exactly what position I put down my book in, then essentially they'll be identical and would have 'merged' after I pick up the book again - I won't care whether it was 1 cm to the left compared to in the other world, or that it was angled differently - I'll pick it up again regardless.

There will be a myriad of 'choices' which ultimately don't have a lasting impact. I could roll a dice and I get a 4 in one timeline and a 5 in the other timeline, but what if I was rolling the dice because I was bored and didn't care how it landed? Or what if I didn't even bother looking at the dice because I just wanted to throw something? Now mind you, something a HUGE as killing one person would bring a whole slew of changes but way in the end it'll all even out and become indifferent again (though this might take an Eternity to achieve).



Erm... there is no 'Conclusion' to this post is there?

Final point I want to make? Science is a lot like Religion when you know enough about it - it's not absolute, there are alternate versions_of/substitutes_for your theories and it becomes a matter of personal belief and trying to prove the others wrong with extremely-hard-to-find-and-justify evidence. All our Quantum talk above coule be crude and inaccurate approximations to Reality ^^


So... yeah... now to actually talk about the world of Suzumiya Haruhi based on a loose agreement to the above 'background knowledge' - if I've succeeded in convincing you (assuming I explained it clearly - it certainly won't be for many people) of this background that is (it is plenty disputable yes)... ^^;;

[Psieye]

I copied and pasted the conversation on "haruhi marble" here. (As long as we don't go into comparison of which anime's better, we should be able to have some fun with this)
Hmm, actually I feel "Marble Phantasm" is a closer description than "Reality Marble" for the case we're discussing. For reference, the two are explained way down here in the Moonlit World website (http://www.geocities.com/max3075/tsukihime/enc/vampire.htm).

Reality Marble is a space where you can only do one characteristic thing unique to the caster, but in that space you can break the laws of nature to do it. Marble Phantasm can do anything within the laws of nature also in a given space but you're not limited to "only one thing" unlike the Reality Marble.

Yuki's 'incantations' are command line activated programs for manipulating Data and Information - given that all of matter is Data at some level. Thus manipulating raw Data is likened to manipulating Nature - hence Marble Phantasm as Yuki doesn't seem to have any 'space' restrictions (if she can make it rain...)


For Haruhi's power, I think it's instead more accurate to compare to not Reality Marble nor Marble Phantasm but...
"The words that change how the world should be" (or "The words that make God mad") - born from a line in Hisui's dialogue in Tsukihime which should have gone "you might be the murderer, but... (blah blah blah)" got written as "you will be the murderer... (blah blah blah)" - was so popular it's 'official' that Hisui can do this in Melty Blood (it's her Last Arc) and presumably in Battle Moon Wars when Act 2 comes out.

Just that in Haruhi's case, she doesn't need to spell it out in spoken words.



Hehe, it's still a good crossover comparison ^^

[panzerfan]

A friend of mine came up with one very interesting thought regarding this "quantum forking" of timelines and the Butterfly Effect: the infinity of different timelines will all converge again at the End of Time when the Universe 'dies'. To clarify, first we must make the assumption that (or more accurately, 'choose to only consider the subset of Universes which') all timelines share the same fundamental constants and laws of Physics (else we can't even begin to conceive and debate on these different Universes - gotta have some ground of familiarity afterall). If all timelines have the same Origin (Big Bang, or some other creation theory), then ultimately they'll all have the same End (whether it's entropic heat death of the Universe or Big Crunch, that doesn't matter - point is all timelines will do one or the other). Therefore while we're forking and branching out timelines all the time, somehow we have to bring them back together again. And one way of doing that is noting that not all changes produce a Butterfly Effect:

Imagine 2 different timelines where in both I put a book down to write a letter then pick it back up again. An infinity of other parallel worlds aside, if these two particular timelines only differ by exactly what position I put down my book in, then essentially they'll be identical and would have 'merged' after I pick up the book again - I won't care whether it was 1 cm to the left compared to in the other world, or that it was angled differently - I'll pick it up again regardless.

There will be a myriad of 'choices' which ultimately don't have a lasting impact. I could roll a dice and I get a 4 in one timeline and a 5 in the other timeline, but what if I was rolling the dice because I was bored and didn't care how it landed? Or what if I didn't even bother looking at the dice because I just wanted to throw something? Now mind you, something a HUGE as killing one person would bring a whole slew of changes but way in the end it'll all even out and become indifferent again (though this might take an Eternity to achieve).



Hmm... would we actually be seeing this butterfly effect as we speak? Considering how that microscopic subatomic quantum phenomons are almost never seen in the plane of reality that we exist in? Could it be the macroscopic world in itself is a convergence of all the possible outcomes from the subatomic level of interaction?

What would happen then in the forever expanding model of the universe where there is no 'end in time'? Will we wind up with no convergence of alternate space-time?


on the phantasm
Yuki's action has real consequences, as the rain dialog shows. It makes sense that Yuki's ability is closer to marble phantasm. Haruhi... has the power of demiurge I guess.

(It is little wonder why so many physicists become philosophers...)

[Psieye]

Hmm... would we actually be seeing this butterfly effect as we speak? Considering how that microscopic subatomic quantum phenomons are almost never seen in the plane of reality that we exist in? Could it be the macroscopic world in itself is a convergence of all the possible outcomes from the subatomic level of interaction?

What would happen then in the forever expanding model of the universe where there is no 'end in time'? Will we wind up with no convergence of alternate space-time?

I don't think we can say we're seeing the 'reverse butterfly effect merging', but then again I do have a preference for Many Worlds as opposed to "One World only" (even if I do prefer to do my calcuations in the "One World" 'collapsing wavefunctions' interpretation). Or to word it better, this reality we exist in is a convergence of a great many quantum-level and other trivially minor variations and possibilities - but not ALL as there will be some which do have a Butterfly-esque effect.


As for what happens in the Open Universe model's End of Time... dah, can't remember the exact details but it comes down to 'heat death'. All matter decays (nuclei eventually all become Iron nuclei which is the most stable or break down before that - and the Iron will eventually 'evaporate' away too) into the unbound energy form ("matter is solidified energy"); Entropy is maxed out (it cannot increase anymore) and there'd be no gradient in Temperature/Energy therefore everything looks bleak and uniform and in utter entropy. Mmm no, I need to do some revision before I can actually define what 'entropy' is for you as applied to this scenario. Ask me again a month later or separately read it up? :p

[panzerfan]

(here's something I found randomly) http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/quantum.htm

this reality we exist in is a convergence of a great many quantum-level and other trivially minor variations and possibilities - but not ALL as there will be some which do have a Butterfly-esque effect.

Good point. Variation from the limiting value in the convergence might even get magnified as more and more things are compounded to the whole 'equation', although that might be limited to specific bounds (or out of the ones that we can physically observe within our lifetime).

A thing I am not sure about is whether or not if the alternate planes will be just as spread out as our plane (with several dimentions rolled up as M-theory suggests)...

Going back to the evatoration. I remember a talk of how that eventually we will wind up with gigantic Hydrogen atoms since that is the simplest atomic structure to make and with no such thing as absolute vaccum, the only things that should remain and potentially form an 'atom' on a very large scale... provided that not all matter gets turned back into what amounts to universal background radiation.

[Psieye]

Going back to the evatoration. I remember a talk of how that eventually we will wind up with gigantic Hydrogen atoms since that is the simplest atomic structure to make and with no such thing as absolute vaccum, the only things that should remain and potentially form an 'atom' on a very large scale... provided that not all matter gets turned back into what amounts to universal background radiation.
Simplest doesn't mean Stablest - otherwise Nuclear Fusion of Deuterium wouldn't be energetically favourable.

How the hell you define an 'atom' that big I do not know - unless we're talking about Neutron Stars.

[panzerfan]

That's a good question. Conventional wisdom regarding nuclearstrong/nuclearweak force would not work (and how big an impact gravity might have with cosmological distance involved and a very small mass make things even more interesting) ... subsequently, what would happen if an 'anti-hydrogen "atom"' collides with a 'hydrogen "atom"' when the subatomic particles are more displaced than 1 AU (I mean can you even collide at all? Wouldn't you simply exchange bond or something...)

Simplest doesn't mean Stablest - otherwise Nuclear Fusion of Deuterium wouldn't be energetically favourable.
although... we only recently managed to do better than breakeven since controlling plasma in a Tokamak sucks so much juice that efficiency is greatly diminished. However, Tyler showed how efficient it can be with Ivy Mike...

(not so thing regarding radiation... today's 20yr after Chernobyl)

[Psieye]

Regarding that Information Entropy equation, a friend of mine provides the answer:

Shannon's Information Content: for a given set A(x) where x is the variable, the average entropy (information content) is given by:

H(x) = SUM{ p(x) * log_2 (1/p(x)) }

where p(x) = probability of event x

[panzerfan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_entropy

This proves fascinating and relavent for anyone doing data.comm or even in database.

Anyway, the expression

H(x) = SUM{ p(x) * log_2 (1/p(x)) } = -SUM{ p(x) * log_2p(x)) }

is best known for compression of alphanumeric string character, transmitted in bits (which is why we're looking at log base 2)

entropy is loosely defined as state of randomness from what I seen so far...

(just googled and found http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/bionet.info-theory.faq.html#Information.Equal.Entropy to look at)

According to Dr. Thomas D. Schneider, Information is always a measure of the decrease of uncertainty at a receiver (or molecular machine). "The conditional entropy Hy(x) will, for convenience, be called the equivocation. It measures the average ambiguity of the received signal."

That makes the "explosion of information" an interesting thing to happen out of the blue. If everything is supposed to goto entropy, this sudden decrease of randomness is disconcerting.

[lavarock]

It's interesting to see this in haruhi, from Information Theory I took last semester, just a brief summary and how it may relate to haruhi.

Shannon's Entropy is basically a way to quantize information. For discrete random variable, Entropy is H(x)=-sum(p(x)log2(p(x))) where p(x) is the probability mass function. Discrete random variable means the probability are set to be certain number at some discrete event. For example coin toss, if it's not biased, then Pr(X=0)=0.5, meaning the probability of X=0, let's say it's head, equals 0.5. The unit of entropy is bits (base 2).
Entropy should be thought as the uncertainty of a probability event. The entropy of an event is highest when the probability is evenly distributed. For example an unbiased coin toss, in this case the uncertainty is highest if the coin is completely unbiased, therefore H is highest.
BTW the entropy for continuous RV is slightly different, where you change summation to integration.

Entropy is used to calculate the capacity of a transmission channel by
C=max{I(x;y)},
p(x)
where I is the mutual information between the output y and input x:
I(x;y)=H(y)-H(y|x)
H(y|x) means the entropy of y given x, so the meaning of the mutual information is, the difference between information of output y and information of output y given input x. A communication channel's capacity therefore can be understood as the maximum of mutual information between the output and input over all input distributions. We can also describe the capacity as channel's ability to reduce uncertainty of output given input. Capacity of the channel is important to determine the maximum rate possible for that channel.

Entropy is also big part of coding theory. Coding is used primarily for data compression and encryption, and is major part of every computer geek's daily life.
It can be proved that the optimal code cannot be better than the entropy of the source. What that means is, for any code, the minimal codeword length has to be greater or equal to entropy of the coding table.

Now haruhi, since Yuki represent alien races which is Integrated Information Data entity. It makes perfect sense to have this formula in the OP.

Now I feel such a nerd to type out boring stuff like this in an internet forum:P

[Psieye]

That makes the "explosion of information" an interesting thing to happen out of the blue. If everything is supposed to goto entropy, this sudden decrease of randomness is disconcerting.
I may not be familiar with Information theory, but this I can certainly answer: "the entropy of the universe is always increased (or kept the same, but never decreased) by any given process" - standard rule in Thermodynamics/Statistical Physics. In other words, the loose definition of 'entropy is a measure of randomness' is at fault here, as well as not considering everything.

That's all I can say off the top of my head though - I'd have to look stuff up and think harder to satsifactorily answer you about Entropy.

[panzerfan]

But that would mean that either additional entropy ~randomness pops out of nowhere. I think information is viewed in this case as just a subset of the gross entropy... although such a thing as a decrease in global randomness would be a potential trigger for the backstory on the data entities's part. Since thermodynamic entropy cannot go 'down', yet information increased all of a sudden...

I am imagining this as a discontinuity right now...

[Anh_Minh]

I may not be familiar with Information theory, but this I can certainly answer: "the entropy of the universe is always increased (or kept the same, but never decreased) by any given process" - standard rule in Thermodynamics/Statistical Physics.
Only true in a closed system. You can decrease entropy, but there's an energy cost.

[ordnance11]

I may not be familiar with Information theory, but this I can certainly answer: "the entropy of the universe is always increased (or kept the same, but never decreased) by any given process" - standard rule in Thermodynamics/Statistical Physics. In other words, the loose definition of 'entropy is a measure of randomness' is at fault here, as well as not considering everything.

That's all I can say off the top of my head though - I'd have to look stuff up and think harder to satsifactorily answer you about Entropy.


To put it in the most simplest terms (and crudest)....fecal matter happens, will always roll downhill, and will always happen at the worst possible time. :heh:

[panzerfan]

EDIT: Anh_Minh's point... is interesting. Quantum mechanic tosses out the notion of closed system alongside absolute vaccum... but a system can be relatively closed base on the limits of factors that can be observed by the point of reference. If an instantaneous increase of information is detected, Psieye would still have validity since observational constraint 'closes' the system to the eyes of ... data entities. It does however open the window to the alternate possibility that unforseened factors contributed to this sudden increase of gross entropy of the observed 'system' somehow, as that way 'thermodynamic' entropy doesn't have to decrease within the system... like having leaks in a tank.

[Psieye]

Only true in a closed system. You can decrease entropy, but there's an energy cost.
"The entire universe" IS a closed system. Just that we were considering a case which wasn't a closed system, hence you've pointed out the inappropriateness of my post which neglected the 'this isn't a closed system' fact. (Thanks for the reminder about that btw)

[Kaoru Chujo]

Entropy is related to energy. Any time energy is expended, some of it is wasted and can't be used to create order. That's entropy. As people have said, the order of the universe as a whole decreases (closed system), but in local areas order can still increase (open to the rest of the universe).

The Sun is dissipating energy all the time, part of the universe's general increase of entropy (disorder). But the Earth is open to the Sun and receives some of that wasted energy, so the organization of things here can increase even while the order of the universe as a whole is decreasing. Life itself is a good example: by pouring energy onto the Earth, the Sun makes possible the increased organization that is life. We increase organization by wasting energy, lol.

Read anything by Ilya Prigogine (http://order.ph.utexas.edu/Prigogine.htm), who won the Nobel prize for developing theories about this. Order Out of Chaos is good for laymen like me. He shows how entropy can be a source of order.

So maybe Haruhi is an energy source, like the Sun, lol.

[CrowKenobi]

So maybe Haruhi is an energy source, like the Sun, lol.
So [I]that explains why everything revolves around Haruhi! :D

[Onizuka-GTO]

I was thinking, been reading James hogan books. one of them was about a group of scientist who invented a machine whic hcould send messages to the past.

This was achieved by sending "Tau" Waves, which can be picked up though time.
in the book cosmologist were able to study the universe around them, using this equipment they discovered that the ultimate entropy i.e. "The Big End" created a Tau emmission wave, that was sent forthy trillion-sqrillion-willion into the past, that caused a great explosion of matter. i.e. the "Big Bang" the end was the beginning! :O

I was thinking....maybe...Haruhi is the same? She created the universe, then she went into a sleep or something and appear a sqillion-wilion-trillion years later in human form?

food for thought :)

[zalas]

I'm still sticking by my wild theory that Yuki is a representative of the TechnoCore. :)

[Onizuka-GTO]

I'm still sticking by my wild theory that Yuki is a representative of the TechnoCore. :)

baka. its not the technocore, it's the Autobots. everyone knows that.
:D

[Prodigious]

Not the Autobots, it's the Maximals silly! Autobots are so 1980s.

[Onizuka-GTO]

bah kids these days, a new slang for everything...... :rolleyes:

:D

[zalas]

baka. its not the technocore, it's the Autobots. everyone knows that.
:D
Someone obviously missed the two books she was reading <_<

[ZeusIrae]

Someone obviously missed the two books she was reading <_<

If she was a representative of the technocore she would speak in poem with cryptic sentence that left you wondering if you're not nuts.

But if she is,does it mean that haruihi is the lord of pain?When you think about it,it's a very accurate definition of her role in SOS-dan.

[tritoch]

My take on the whole thing:

Haruhi created a time rift forcing the world to move into a different time space thus creating a parallel space tailored to suit Haruhi. As for Mikuru/Itsuki/Yuki, they were created as the parallel space created and Mikuru's explanation of time fits in perfectly. It's not moving but an animation of pictures. Creating the world caused pictures to be created to fit the new world.

Some anime quoted this:
"You are wrong, for the future is not a result of the accumulation of the past, and yet only if you abserve the present are you qualified to speak of the past. That is why it is in vain that we try to use the past to decide the future.~(Matantei Loki Ragnorok)

Basically, since Haruhi wished for advance beings, they appeared. =)

As for Kyon, Haruhi has feelings for him. Especially in Episode 5 when Haruhi got so jealous.

Im only basing off my assumptions from the tv series and not from the manga since i haven't seen the manga yet. T___T

[ZeusIrae]

So haruih can create a parallel world.A mix of different time-space(one with esps,another with data-lifeforms etc).But why her insatisfaction would destroy this time-space?after it's created there's no reason for it to stop exist,no?

And who the hell is Kyon,if haruihi is a sleeping god who can change everything at will,he's an anomaly.He's a variable that for some obscure reason the divine entity can't change.What does that make him?an anti-god?haruihi's negative?

[Onizuka-GTO]

He's human. simple as that.

There are many myths that tells of Gods/Goddess, especially (Ancient Chinese & Greek ones) interacting with humans, and if that is a smart one, they can influence them, as so much as to divert them from doing some disasterous stuff or some good things. After all, who said emotions are just a "human" thing? Even supreme beings have feelings.....

:D :D :D

[tritoch]

So haruih can create a parallel world.A mix of different time-space(one with esps,another with data-lifeforms etc).But why her insatisfaction would destroy this time-space?after it's created there's no reason for it to stop exist,no?

And who the hell is Kyon,if haruihi is a sleeping god who can change everything at will,he's an anomaly.He's a variable that for some obscure reason the divine entity can't change.What does that make him?an anti-god?haruihi's negative?



I dont think Haruhi destroys any time space. Its just that time space overlaps the old space. That would explain why the the aliens, time travelers and espers can't go back more than 3 years from which Haruhi toyed with the time space since the start of their timespace begins with Haruhi's time distortion. The properties of the old time space still continues but since the two time spaces merged, some events are added like inserting page notes when you're researching a book (as Haruhi wanted it to be, and how Mikuru explained it)

Im thinking along the lines of Dual: Parallel trouble adventure. As more inter parallel time space interacts, it no longer becomes parallel but merges to form a single time space that has properties of both time spaces.

Kyon just got lucky to be loved by someone like Haruhi. =)

[Psieye]

Ahaha, now that Ep 5 is finally out with all 3 Introductions we can get round to the Real purpose of this thread - discussing Haruhi Ontology ^^

Ah well, good foundation laying beforehand in the previous posts I guess.

*goes off to hammer out his thoughts properly before posting*

[Onizuka-GTO]

Ahaha, now that Ep 5 is finally out with all 3 Introductions we can get round to the Real purpose of this thread - discussing Haruhi Ontology ^^

Ah well, good foundation laying beforehand in the previous posts I guess.

*goes off to hammer out his thoughts properly before posting*


arrggh! noOoOOoO! flee before we all drown under Psieye babble!!

:uhoh:

*puts a snorkel and a lifevest on and clings to a tree*

:D

[Psieye]

Dude, I don't have so much time to do one of those Uber Babble posts more than once in such a short space of time ^^;; At least, not as much as I had 3 years ago on the MT SD forums...

But anyway, there shouldn't be a need to babble so much when going through the possibilities I and my friends come up with - the background theoretical descriptions were laid down by that Uber Babble previously ^^

[CrowKenobi]

He's human. simple as that.

There are many myths that tells of Gods/Goddess, especially (Ancient Chinese & Greek ones) interacting with humans, and if that is a smart one, they can influence them, as so much as to divert them from doing some disasterous stuff or some good things. After all, who said emotions are just a "human" thing? Even supreme beings have feelings.....

:D :D :D
Yeah, just ask Keiichi Morisato. ;)

[Kaoru Chujo]

From the ep5 thread:You remember Haruhi's introduction? She definitely mentioned four things: aliens, time travelers, other worldly beings, ESP. Although aliens and other worldy beings are similar; I just got to thinking that the SOS団 has Haruhi and 4 members, and she mentioned 4 beings in her introduction.... Perhaps Kyon is from another timeline, so isn't affected by Haruhi's effects on the one in which the story is set? 異世界人="people from other worlds"="sliders" Perhaps he slid over from that other timeline.

[Shirobane]

Dude, I don't have so much time to do one of those Uber Babble posts more than once in such a short space of time ^^;; At least, not as much as I had 3 years ago on the MT SD forums...

But anyway, there shouldn't be a need to babble so much when going through the possibilities I and my friends come up with - the background theoretical descriptions were laid down by that Uber Babble previously ^^

So it's official, Psieye is an alien/time traveller/ESPer. Onizuka-GTO I suggest you dive for cover as he may have the power to drop down large walls of text :heh:

[CrowKenobi]

From the ep5 thread: Perhaps Kyon is from another timeline, so isn't affected by Haruhi's effects on the one in which the story is set? 異世界人="people from other worlds"="sliders" Perhaps he slid over from that other timeline.
I'm also of a like mind to this theory and I'm sure it was an inadvertant slide.

And since he doesn't realize that one tree in the Amazon rainforest is missing a leaf, he goes on oblivious to his current situation.

:D

[PastPrime]

From the ep5 thread: Perhaps Kyon is from another timeline, so isn't affected by Haruhi's effects on the one in which the story is set? 異世界人="people from other worlds"="sliders" Perhaps he slid over from that other timeline.
He was evidently part of the events three years ago. That was when everyone started calling him Kyon instead of by his name.

[Vexx]

I was thinking, been reading James hogan books. one of them was about a group of scientist who invented a machine whic hcould send messages to the past.

This was achieved by sending "Tau" Waves, which can be picked up though time.
in the book cosmologist were able to study the universe around them, using this equipment they discovered that the ultimate entropy i.e. "The Big End" created a Tau emmission wave, that was sent forthy trillion-sqrillion-willion into the past, that caused a great explosion of matter. i.e. the "Big Bang" the end was the beginning! :O

I was thinking....maybe...Haruhi is the same? She created the universe, then she went into a sleep or something and appear a sqillion-wilion-trillion years later in human form?

food for thought :)

The book is called "Thrice Upon A Time" ... one of Hogan's better efforts, imo. In that story, though, other timelines would often eliminate themselves when the information was sent because their past selves would change the decisions they made (also recall Ren&Stimpy's "History Eraser Button" ... "you'll never know...")
Obviously this led to great moral dilemma (which comprises the rest of the book).

The jist is that despite the infinite number of timelines appearing and disappearing, they all begin and end at the Point (two points connected by a tau emission wave). A self-contained universe which may vary infinitely within.

Haruhi (afaik atm) seems to have begun her disturbances "3 years ago" (whatever that means anymore) and I suppose it has to do with Kyon but I'll try to avoid finding out too much til the series is over :)

(must practice staying out of threads ... aieeeee)

[molitar]

Though is there any reason why Yuki spilled the beans in front of kyon?

I suspect because she was probably worried that either A) He would quit the club or B) He would do something drastic which could really affect Haruhi. She needed to let him know a bit of the danger and how much he can affect what happens. How he was chosen by her and it's best to go with the flow because what could result if she really got pissed or something.

[Psieye]

So it's official, Psieye is an alien/time traveller/ESPer. Onizuka-GTO I suggest you dive for cover as he may have the power to drop down large walls of text :heh:
Ahahahah XD XD XD XD

[Gsus]

Not the Autobots, it's the Maximals silly! Autobots are so 1980s.
Maximals are so 90s. Yuki's with the La-li-lu-le-lo.

Now, back to lurking.

[panzerfan]

(Ironically, this bickering reminds me of the 4chan argument on Eva and Haruhi, which somehow evoked the argument that "mecha was dead until EVA came along" and "moe was overdone until Haruhi's descent". Sigh...)

[kari-no-sugata]

Some random thoughts...

It's hard to say just how much an effect Haruhi is having on the world based on her wishes. For example, she wants to meet aliens, espers, time travelers and see supernatural events etc. While some of those have happened, it's not been all according to the results Haruhi herself wants (so far in the anime and what I've read in the novel translations). ie, while she has technically met aliens etc, she doesn't know that she actually has. If Haruhi's wishes created the aliens etc (something very hard), why can't her wishes result in Haruhi finding out they actually exist (which seems rather easy)? She does very specifically want to meet aliens or otherwise extrodinary people or beings. Based on that, it seems more plausible that the aliens etc pre-existed and are reacting to side-effects of Haruhi's powers, rather than being created by Haruhi.

Another example: Itsuki suggests that events 3 years ago created espers in the first place. However, given the specific conditions needed for his esper powers to noticible, it's just as possible that he always had those powers but it wasn't until certain events starting 3 years ago that it was possible to fulfill the conditions to realise those powers.

Another example: Haruhi clearly has some feelings for Kyon (she certainly doesn't like Kyon being paired with Mikuru or Yuki in ep 5), so you'd think she'd want Kyon to like her etc - but this doesn't seem to be happening at all. And if anything, her goddess powers are losing to Mikuru's moe~ power :rolleyes:


None of which explains what Haruhi's powers are exactly or where they came from or the extent of the real results to date...

[Vexx]

@kari-no-sugata: the inability to affect Kyon directly and her unconscious frustration at this probably drive a lot of the show's plot. She definitely is already thinking of Kyon as somehow "hers". Kyon is forming a bond with Haruhi... well, at least he's finding life much more interesting with her despite all the grousing.
Character-wise, Haruhi reminds me a bit of the series Kamichu's wild-tigress friend who's a Miko at the local temple. That same smile and wild eyes.... love it.

This show has reawakened my latent interest in physics, particularly the concept of the universe under information theory as a large projection of an underlying information field.

There you go: romance, physics, comedy, moe, wild-eyed tigress.... I'm set.

[Onizuka-GTO]

I liked kamichu! too bad it never got finished :(

Now that you mentioned it, Haruhi is like the opposite version of Kamichu.... :D

[Vexx]

well... you're in luck sort of... Kamichu is licensed and will start releasing in June.

Course I see you're in the UK and you'll have to "pay the freight" but I order a fair amount of stuff from the BBC and it isn't too painful.

yeah... kamichu just wanted everyone to be happy and get along.... Suzumiya is more like Loki the god of capricious fun that destroys the universe :)

maybe Shiva is a better comparison.... Creation and Destruction all rolled into one... the goddess of energy and matter.

[ZeusIrae]

Shiva?


"I am Haruhi,the destroyer of worlds.":heh: :heh: :heh:

I am too scared to imagine an Haruhi with 4 arms.Imagine what she could do to Mikuru...............errrr this starting to look like some weird h-fantasy:uhoh:

[Kaioshin Sama]

Some random thoughts...

It's hard to say just how much an effect Haruhi is having on the world based on her wishes. For example, she wants to meet aliens, espers, time travelers and see supernatural events etc. While some of those have happened, it's not been all according to the results Haruhi herself wants (so far in the anime and what I've read in the novel translations). ie, while she has technically met aliens etc, she doesn't know that she actually has. If Haruhi's wishes created the aliens etc (something very hard), why can't her wishes result in Haruhi finding out they actually exist (which seems rather easy)? She does very specifically want to meet aliens or otherwise extrodinary people or beings. Based on that, it seems more plausible that the aliens etc pre-existed and are reacting to side-effects of Haruhi's powers, rather than being created by Haruhi.

Another example: Itsuki suggests that events 3 years ago created espers in the first place. However, given the specific conditions needed for his esper powers to noticible, it's just as possible that he always had those powers but it wasn't until certain events starting 3 years ago that it was possible to fulfill the conditions to realise those powers.

Another example: Haruhi clearly has some feelings for Kyon (she certainly doesn't like Kyon being paired with Mikuru or Yuki in ep 5), so you'd think she'd want Kyon to like her etc - but this doesn't seem to be happening at all. And if anything, her goddess powers are losing to Mikuru's moe~ power :rolleyes:


None of which explains what Haruhi's powers are exactly or where they came from or the extent of the real results to date...

and yet no matter how hard I've tried to press this point, I can't get through to people that not everything is specifically a result of Haruhi's desires. I think people are a bit mesmerized by her character and want to put her up on a pedestal higher than she should be. I agree with the Loki comparison though, a trickster, who isn't really good nor evil, but inadverantely brings about disaster during Ragnarok, kind of like how Haruhi causes big trouble without meaning it. Like Kyon says her actions often lack meaning, but something else far more sinister always happens as a result of them. I firmly believe that Haruhi's powers have limits, I don't know how anybody got the impression she is omnipotent as nothing has been offered so far in the series to even hint at that besides Koizumi's theory, which is well... a theory. Anyway, we'll have to wait and see, I just wish the other folks would stop jumping to conclusions, most events in the show seem to have a more simple explanation and aren't always a direct result of Haruhi.

[panzerfan]

Well since I look at Haruhi according to Kyon as a classical 'great man', one that can affect the outcome of event, although not necessary as the sole cause... it is another to say that everything falls on Haruhi's plate. I long see her as a demiurge at the magnitute of Gilgamesh but that's me.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

and yet no matter how hard I've tried to press this point, I can't get through to people that not everything is specifically a result of Haruhi's desires. I think people are a bit mesmerized by her character and want to put her up on a pedestal higher than she should be. I agree with the Loki comparison though, a trickster, who isn't really good nor evil, but inadverantely brings about disaster during Ragnarok, kind of like how Haruhi causes big trouble without meaning it. Like Kyon says her actions often lack meaning, but something else far more sinister always happens as a result of them. I firmly believe that Haruhi's powers have limits, I don't know how anybody got the impression she is omnipotent as nothing has been offered so far in the series to even hint at that besides Koizumi's theory, which is well... a theory. Anyway, we'll have to wait and see, I just wish the other folks would stop jumping to conclusions, most events in the show seem to have a more simple explanation and aren't always a direct result of Haruhi.
Keep in mind, of course, that most people who "jumped to conclusions" have already read the translated novels concerning episode 4, 5 & 6.

It was intentional of Kyoani to keep Haruhi's powers in the dark until the finale.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Yes and so have I, I remember them being just as non descript and based in theory as the episodes. Except for Volume 1 Chapter 7 which was pretty ambigous, even with the clues given by Koizumi and Nagato.

Yuki: At 2:30 this morning you and Suzumiya Haruhi disappeared from this world. Which could mean a lot of things depending on how one chooses to interpret it. Itsuki: I must thank you from the bottom of my heart this world remains unchanged. Cryptic line right there, again could mean a number of things. Perhaps if he followed that up with something it might have been less ambiguous.

Though since everyone here is already on board with the God theory, I probably shouldn't even be bothering to argue this point, its a waste of all our time. My official theory is that she is a human gifted with special abilities, but I'm probably the only one that holds this position. Its like the lines in chapter 7 say:

"Looking at her young and smooth face, I remembered Nagato's "evolution possibility", Asahina's "temporal distortion", and Koizumi treating Haruhi as "God". But as for me, what is Haruhi to me? Just what do I treat her as?"

Well I treat her as an exceptional if a bit eccentric human being with a gift. My theory could change as the novel wears on though.

[Kikaifan]

Well, I don't like how the god theory seems to presume that whatever intelligence she had before she became Haruhi-the-merely-empowered-human, whatever mind she used to devise her creation, in some way desired things to be as they are. I know it's for the sake of the story and all, but it seems a huge conceit that the wish of an omnipotent would be for the plot of an anime...

I mean, if she's just a human with reality-altering powers, not the originator of that world and those powers, at least you get to just leave the setting to the writers- Yuki and Mikuru's peoples exist because they are part of the setting, not something Haruhi created. It seems more interesting when Haruhi's dream is just a part of the world, not the whole thing, like Itsuki says...

[Kaioshin Sama]

I forgot did they ever say she can only alter existing reality or merely add or create stuff in it. Also I think the universe was around before her and that her existence is a fluke. I seem to recall Itsuki saying that she is a once in the existent of the universe anomaly which may never happen again and therefore needs to be protected and guided in some way. The other characters often seem to act as guardians to her in a way and they are trying to protect her from herself basically. Whether she realizes it or not, the other characters are constantly influencing her decisions, guiding her away from self-destruction, and providing her with companionship. There is so much more to the story than just Haruhi and her abilitities, it places a heavy emphasis on character interaction and relationships. That's why I say not everything is a result of Haruhi's will, which some people seem to think, a story can't exist solely with one character as the center of all attention, it would be really boring.

[PastPrime]

Yes and so have I, I remember them being just as non descript and based in theory as the episodes. Except for Volume 1 Chapter 7 which was pretty ambigous, even with the clues given by Koizumi and Nagato.

Yuki: At 2:30 this morning you and Suzumiya Haruhi disappeared from this world. Which could mean a lot of things depending on how one chooses to interpret it. Itsuki: I must thank you from the bottom of my heart this world remains unchanged. Cryptic line right there, again could mean a number of things. Perhaps if he followed that up with something it might have been less ambiguous.

Though since everyone here is already on board with the God theory, I probably shouldn't even be bothering to argue this point, its a waste of all our time. My official theory is that she is a human gifted with special abilities, but I'm probably the only one that holds this position. Its like the lines in chapter 7 say:

"Looking at her young and smooth face, I remembered Nagato's "evolution possibility", Asahina's "temporal distortion", and Koizumi treating Haruhi as "God". But as for me, what is Haruhi to me? Just what do I treat her as?"

Well I treat her as an exceptional if a bit eccentric human being with a gift. My theory could change as the novel wears on though.
It seems to me that the problem is with your definition of "god". In the Shinto tradition she could be seen as a god, not "The God". Try watching Kamichu (The Middle School God). She is hardly all powerful. Or "Spirited Away." There are many gods in there who are less than omnipitant.

[panzerfan]

Well that's a reason why initially I tried to look at Haruhi as a demiurge for some time. It is the only western equivilence that I can of that might render Haruhi most closely. However, after subsequent discussions and later volumes, this becomes less and less vital as all other 3 factions could be viewed either as demiurge (higher Aeon isn't out of the picture but then higher Aeons aren't flawed whereas all 3 of the factions gathered at Haruhi are not)

[arias]

Another example: Haruhi clearly has some feelings for Kyon (she certainly doesn't like Kyon being paired with Mikuru or Yuki in ep 5), so you'd think she'd want Kyon to like her etc - but this doesn't seem to be happening at all. And if anything, her goddess powers are losing to Mikuru's moe~ power :rolleyes:

Spoiler far into the novel series


I don't think her feelings for Kyon are really that simple...

If you read the novels and so forth, there are times that she projects (moves forward to Kyon) and other times where she withdraws.. For example, while she did bunch up a ponytail at the end of V1, she let it down soon thereafter. She also bunched up a ponytail later on when there was some tension between K&H, and she immediately let her hair down when Kyon came around to the room.

There might be some complexity as to the fact that despite her repeated chants of seeking fun, interesting things and therefore, aliens/espers/time-travellers as potential boyfriends, she is falling for a relatively dull and normal guy in Kyon. This could be something Haruhi's annoyed with, and is struggling to deal with, but who knows? I've read up to volume 7, and all we get are still mere hints and signs.

[panzerfan]

A strong feeling over John Smith might run underneath. (I have no idea of how much of it Haruhi has put together regarding Kyon and John Smith however)

[npal]

And if anything, her goddess powers are losing to Mikuru's moe~ power :rolleyes:

And here comes my theory of Mikuru being a Moe-kami, again :p Tsk tsk, not so omnipotent, are we? :p

[PastPrime]

I was thinking that you could consider both Haruhi and Yuki to be magical girls, with Yuki's powers limited by the requirements of equivilent exchange and Haruhi's powers being unlimited.

[panzerfan]

Not exactly... but it's interesting to say that.

/*moved some ep10 discussion to here just because it's more appropiate here*/

Well Nagato actually confirmed that there is more than 1 agent of the data entity on earth (so she's not technically the 'sole' observer). Data entity exists outside of the bound of space-time, making this entity perhaps divine from the eyes of human being. Their thought can go from past to present and future simutaneously, however they could not further themselves since they cannot get through this knowing all stumbling block.

I thought that they can't read the data before 3 years ago. So they exist now and in the future but their past is limited to that 3 years ago where Haruhi created them to be? When I mean 3 years, 3 years from how Yuki stated it.

You're mixing up Mikuru's story with Yuki's.

Yuki herself was created three years ago to observe Haruhi after the IDE noticed a explosion of new information coming from Haruhi, but they existed and had access to past more than 3 years ago; whereas Mikuru's future people found out they couldn't travel more than 3 years into the past (from Kyon's standpoint).


So does that makes the Data Entity similiar to V'ger from Star Trek The Motion Picture?

There are three factions, each of whom has a COMPLETELY different theory about the phenomenon that is Haruhi ... some of ya'll are mixing them together.

From the Data point of view, they've always been around and Haruhi is just a datafield anomoly.... from the timetravel view, she's a locking kink on spacetime that prevents them from going more than 3 years prior like they used to. .... from the esper point of view, its impossible to tell wtf is happening for all they know she created the universe and the false memories before it 3 years ago - all they can do is mitigate any reality shifts she might generate (let sleeping gods lie).

But none of their theories clash, so they can all be right...or wrong.
Itsuki only said that the world might be created only 3 years ago. He's uncertain of it. Only thing certain is, Haruhi is god-like.

Correct... all the theories may be all facets of the same "jewel" (re: The Many Faces of God by Campbell) or just reflections on the cave wall from the firelight.

I'm almost surprised one of my favorite Arthur C. Clarke proverbs isn't in the OP background text and equations drifting around (paraphrase):

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Just imagine someone awakened from only 200 years ago (hell, 100 years ago) and they'll awaken to a world of Pandemonium, full of demonic forces, witchcraft, people conversing with unseen voices, music from hell, :)
Actually... I could collar the average Joe Moron on the street today and most of the technologies around them are "magic".

It is not known whether or not the data entity bother with time travelling with matter and what kind of effect the time quake has on them. It has been remarked by Yuki that the Time Travellers from Mikuru's era use a comparibly 'rudimentary' method of time travel which leaves some 'wake'. The data entity exists in the past, present and future and they merely need to pass data inbetween instead of bothering with the physical matter (think of it in Gnostic term as abandonment of the Hylic when one madeup of pure Gnosis)

Data entity is somewhat like V'ger but not really, as they have trancended the plane of matter and they exist as information. Yuki might be closer to V'ger actually. Data entity doesn't question its existence but are concerned of its survival and evolutionary standstill.

[Vexx]

Data entity is somewhat like V'ger but not really, as they have trancended the plane of matter and they exist as information. Yuki might be closer to V'ger actually. Data entity doesn't question its existence but are concerned of its survival and evolutionary standstill.

I suppose you could speculate that Data Entity might be something like "post-evolved" V'ger (transcending the illusion of material existence)... Yuki acting much like Delta's reconstituted form and providing some interface to humans.

It is difficult to portray such an entity --- clearly when its supposed to be "integrated" yet there are factions within concealing data from each other (see ep 10).

[panzerfan]

Well the inner workings of the data entity isn't something that Kyon bothered to ask Yuki about... he's having a hard time as it is getting a solid grasp of 3 factions and moreover, how SOS- Brigade will come out of everything short of the kitchen sink being hurled at them.

To further complicate matter, Itsuki inadvertantly confirmed the existence of more than one alien race out there (by his comment that the organization has contacted more than just data entity) . This brings forth another layer of 'invisible hand' to think of.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Well the inner workings of the data entity isn't something that Kyon bothered to ask Yuki about... he's having a hard time as it is getting a solid grasp of 3 factions and moreover, how SOS- Brigade will come out of everything short of the kitchen sink being hurled at them.

To further complicate matter, Itsuki inadvertantly confirmed the existence of more than one alien race out there (by his comment that the organization has contacted more than just data entity) . This brings forth another layer of 'invisible hand' to think of.
Well, we already know there are more aliens. Even the cave cricket classifies as a different alien race, even if it was a failed evolutionary branch.

But I think I can safely claim that Yuki's faction is the most powerful of them all. Thus, there may be trouble caused by a random alien event here and there, but none will be anything Yuki can't handle. I guess I am saying the other aliens would not be influential enough to consider themselves a faction.
Look at it this way; I don't know if Mikuru is more at ease about it yet or not, but at the beginning she was certainly terrified of Yuki. There is no reason to believe the other alien races would be any less fearful and don't stay away as a consequence.

[panzerfan]

well true... although I am still somewhat trying to think of the Snow Mountain event wondering at this point whether or not if there's more than just inner factions of the data entities involved ... it makes sense from both standpoint as it's not conflicting to imagine that the creation (Yuki) is not greater than the creator (data entity) just as it is to imagine that there's alternate faction stepping in and one that is comparible at least to Yuki.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

well true... although I am still somewhat trying to think of the Snow Mountain event wondering at this point whether or not if there's more than just inner factions of the data entities involved ... it makes sense from both standpoint as it's not conflicting to imagine that the creation (Yuki) is not greater than the creator (data entity) just as it is to imagine that there's alternate faction stepping in and one that is comparible at least to Yuki.
Yuki isn't invincible herself, that much we know.

But even if another race manage to overpower the singular Yuki, all that would merely mean they had declared war on the entire data entity society. I am inclined to believe the Data Entities is the lone superpower in the galaxy. The greatest threat to Yuki, other than Haruhi on a rampage, would be from within her own faction.

[panzerfan]

There is validity in this argument of data entity as sole superpower since Koizumi's postulate stated essentially that the only one that matters are those that are showing up in the SOS clubroom and are regular members, thus eliminates the relevence to any other alien parties that might exist. Of course that postulate does not fully address the matter concerning the status of Tsuruya-san completely.

It's still in the open right now though. Who are we to jump into a solid conclusion when Kyon himself is open to it still and he only concludes that his own sanity is intact in the midst of all this.

[Shinoto]

Your all String theorist lol

[Vexx]

actually, I'm more attracted to "information field" views of matter and energy ... but string theory is good for assembly programming :) :)

[panzerfan]

Speaking of String theory...

Based on Big Mikuru's presence in Kyon's time alongside Small Mikuru and Mikuru's explaination, it seems that Tanigawa's universe really follows waveform collapse and in string theory, a supersymmetry of time as dimentions (how many dimentions of time though... dunno). Nagato's ability to synchronize with her past self is another proof of this discontinuity in spacetime. (The implications of this explaination though is lost to me)

[SnakeLegend]

er sorry i'm lost in here, what are you guys talking about?

[Vexx]

Back all the way up to page 1 and read the thread intro (and the rest of the thread). This thread discusses the physics and science behind the Haruhi series with some forays into speculative science fiction concepts.

I just rebrowsed the thread... I think its worth saving off (whew, its only six pages....)

[ganbaru]

I know than this tread is non-working for more than a year, but I would like to start a discussion about the nature of Haruhi ( what kind of being is she) A moderator indicaded than this thread should be the place for this kind of discussion. Myself, I am not sure [The apperance of Sasaki and the anti-SOS danmake me wondering more and more about the role of kyon and Tsuruya[

[Sol Falling]

sounds good to me, but you should probably present a starting point. seems like your spoiler up there might have been cut off? can't really start discussing until we know what's to be discussed.

[ganbaru]

Sorry for lack of clearness of my earlier post. I intended to start a discussion about the nature of Haruhi or about the speculation about her nature. After all Yuki, Mikuru and Koisumi don't share the same idea about that and the last novel add some more possibility.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Sorry for lack of clearness of my earlier post. I intended to start a discussion about the nature of Haruhi or about the speculation about her nature. After all Yuki, Mikuru and Koisumi don't share the same idea about that and the last novel add some more possibility.

Mikuru's wrong entirely, Yuki doesn't really have a (clear) view of what she is, only what she does, and Koizumi, though he at first presents the "she's God" view, later tells Kyon that he believes otherwise. Later novels seem to support the idea that she's not omnipotent.

[ganbaru]

Mikuru's wrong entirely, Yuki doesn't really have a (clear) view of what she is, only what she does, and Koizumi, though he at first presents the "she's God" view, later tells Kyon that he believes otherwise. Later novels seem to support the idea that she's not onimpotent.
For the time traveler , yes they are wrong; Kyon did the symbol 3 year back, but they should know, after all, they
are the one sending Kyon helping Haruhi from 3 year For Nagato, she never gived a titre , she just said what she is capable of doing ( not so helpfull in that). And for the god thing the problem lie in the fact than no one might have the same definition or idea about what is god ( or a god).
Omnipotence might be only one part of the whole, if it is one.

[tehjoker]

although I am still somewhat trying to think of the Snow Mountain event wondering at this point whether or not if there's more than just inner factions of the data entities involved ...
Well, that's impossible because the Integrated Data Entity said(through Yuki) themselves that those responsible for that incident isn't one of them.

[C.A.]

Quoting something 2 years ago does not work.

Anyway at that time the Canopy Domain was not known yet.

[tehjoker]

Yuki knows.
Kyon just didn't asked her about it.

[quigonkenny]

I think this forum should be renamed "The Navel-gazing of Haruhi Suzumiya". It's degenerated from speculation upon which time travel trope the Haruhiverse uses and how it might tie in to current scientific theory (a worthy, if sometimes mind-numbingly boring subject, if you ask me) through the obligatory philosophical wankery, and finally to the tried and true "Stupidity versus smarts" debate. Actually that last one is an improvement, if you ask me... ^_^

In an effort to getthe topic back on track, I give you something I've been rolling around in my head:

Causal relation vis-a-vis time travel in the Haruhiverse seems to weigh heavily—almost entirely, in fact—on known information. If a Predetermined Event is known to be, say, "Kyon will put his wallet into that hole in the ground," then that statement will certainly eventually become true, but the specific method of its occurence is completely in flux. Kyon could trip and drop his wallet into "that hole". The new wallet Mikuru made him for his birthday could be sitting at the edge of a picnic table and his attempts to grab it could jar the table and cause the wallet to fall off and bounce into the hole. At exactly 15:52:31.5 JST, he could take his 2 year, 5 month, 14.2 day old wallet out of his back pocket with his right hand, reach down and hold it inside of "that hole" for exactly 3.26 seconds, then pull it out. All three possibilities match the known information about the Predetermined Event, but all three have very different paths of causality leading to and away from them. In the Haruhiverse, at some point they are all 100% equally likely, but as the "appointed time" (whenever that might be) approaches, various other things happen and, as someone else suggested, the causal threads find themselves subject to the "snap to grid" forces of the Haruhiverse, and whatever some present denizen of the time frame decides happens happens. Hence why Mikuru always uses Kyon as her "patsy". This may give some theoretical physicists or backyard philosophers fits, but its very convenient from the writer's point of view. "Time travelers can't affect the past, but if Kyon (or presumably Tsuruya or Imouto or Kunikida, etc., but they're not the narrators) is involved and it fits the loosest definition of what's known of the Predetermined Event, it's okay."

That's why scientists predict that cars of the future will drive people around instead of people driving them lol, like those in Minority Report.

The city's traffic regulation system will bring you anywhere you want in the shortest amount of time and without any accidents. In this case flying cars would work.
God, let's hope that never happens. As a society in general we've given up enough of our freedoms. Being able to go wherever, whenever, however, is one of those things you're going to have to pry from my cold, dead hands, thankyousoverymuch... Relying on some central planner's wet dream of a supposedly neutered "Skynet-wannabe" to get us around is just about the last thing people need to be looking forward to... Has no one else read 1984 and seen how much things are heading in that direction? This is a bad thing, people...

And I fix computers for a living. I can tell you from experience that they are not getting more reliable as time goes on. It's just getting cheaper to replace them...

On a somewhat lighter note, am I the only one who started humming this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAvQSkK8Z8U) after reading C.A.'s comment?

No, there are smart people and then there are stupid people.

The stupid people are the one who cause all the problems in the world, especially the stupid people in a position of power.
Actually, there are smart people, and there are dim people, and there are knowledgeable people, and there are ignorant people, and there are wise people and there are stupid people. And there are dim wise people, and smart stupid people, and wise ignorant people and stupid knowledgeable people, etc.... While it does sometimes get down to X versus everything else, life is almost never as simple as A versus B.

Although "stupid", in its various and sundry guises, does tend to be problem number one, when you get down to it...

I generally agree with this. The march of science and so on is the march of greater convenience. As technology advances to the point where labor becomes simplified and we are more readily able to meet the demands of the world, and considering that most practical problems go back to the issue of scarcity, I believe that we'll solve a good chunk of society's problems.
History has shown that most of society's problems boil down to the fallability of human nature. Terrorists don't blow up people because doing so will put food on their families' tables. Hitler didn't order the extermination of however many millions of Jews because it would get Germany more oil. Al Gore isn't such a douche because there's only a limited amount of money his carbon credits company (http://billhobbs.com/2007/02/more_on_gore.html) can make.

Science isn't going to fix those underlying problems. Education might fix it, but only the true historical learn-from-our-mistakes "wisdom" kind of education, not the sociopolitical "intelligencia" propaganda that passes for "education" in most of our schools of "higher learning", or the "no child left behind" shuttling of ignorant, unprepared children out into the post-high school world so that the numbers look good.

Like Kaisos suggested, "stupid" is the problem. Science, at best, just makes the things we already do easier. It doesn't really fix anything.

[xris]

While there is going to be some off-topic comments and posts in any thread, I fail to see how the last (now deleted) 70 odd posts on topics such as washing clothes, indestructible flying cars, stupidity, wolves and corrupt politicians have anything to do with Suzumiya Haruhi.

Please keep the thread on-topic, anyone who replies to anything vaguely off-topic is going do receive an Infraction. And replying to this post will be considered off-topic as well.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Causal relation vis-a-vis time travel in the Haruhiverse seems to weigh heavily—almost entirely, in fact—on known information. If a Predetermined Event is known to be, say, "Kyon will put his wallet into that hole in the ground," then that statement will certainly eventually become true, but the specific method of its occurence is completely in flux. Kyon could trip and drop his wallet into "that hole". The new wallet Mikuru made him for his birthday could be sitting at the edge of a picnic table and his attempts to grab it could jar the table and cause the wallet to fall off and bounce into the hole. At exactly 15:52:31.5 JST, he could take his 2 year, 5 month, 14.2 day old wallet out of his back pocket with his right hand, reach down and hold it inside of "that hole" for exactly 3.26 seconds, then pull it out. All three possibilities match the known information about the Predetermined Event, but all three have very different paths of causality leading to and away from them. In the Haruhiverse, at some point they are all 100% equally likely, but as the "appointed time" (whenever that might be) approaches, various other things happen and, as someone else suggested, the causal threads find themselves subject to the "snap to grid" forces of the Haruhiverse, and whatever some present denizen of the time frame decides happens happens. Hence why Mikuru always uses Kyon as her "patsy". This may give some theoretical physicists or backyard philosophers fits, but its very convenient from the writer's point of view. "Time travelers can't affect the past, but if Kyon (or presumably Tsuruya or Imouto or Kunikida, etc., but they're not the narrators) is involved and it fits the loosest definition of what's known of the Predetermined Event, it's okay."

See, the problem with opening a discussion with this is that it's a statement we can immediately accept as true.

There's nothing to discuss.

The rest of your post made me laugh though.

[OkamiNoKaze]

In the opening credits, there's a part where Haruhi is writing something, what is she writing?

[Vexx]

In the opening credits, there's a part where Haruhi is writing something, what is she writing?

You might want to look up "ontology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology)" and re-ask that question in the Q&A section (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31028) of the Haruhi subforum. Also be sure and read the forum rules (http://forums.animesuki.com/faq.php?faq=rules) for maximum survivability :)

[CrowKenobi]

Or even just read the first post from this very thread! ;)

:cool:

[M.Marangio]

The new OP has also some interesting texts, but I'm not sure if all of them are correct:

Haruhi
Closed space, Shinjin, leader of the Brigade, director, ponytail, excellent school record (?), shameless (?), information Br... (?)

Kyon
John Smith, key for everything, wallet of the brigade, mere member, ordinary, troublesome for anything, taktless (?)

Mikuru
fighting waitress, adult, TPDD, mega-bust, pretty, crybaby, secretary (?)

Yuki
expressionless, unemotional, complicated explanation, the Data Integrated Tought Entity (?), (Interf)ace for contacing with Organic...

Itsuki
cards, chess, gobang, ...sive knowledge, part-time job, shining red ball, smiling politely (?)

first running sequence
mostly from the Standard Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model):
photon, up/down/top/bottom/charm/strange quark, electron, neutino, tau neutrino, electron neutrino, muon, tauon, gluon and many formulas...

second running sequence
Millennium Prize Problems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems):
* P is not NP
* Hodge conjecture
* Riemann hypothesis
* Yang–Mills existence and mass gap
* Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness

Some other juicy keywords:
* M-theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory)
* supersymmetric GUT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_unification_theory)
* Gott ist tot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead) (no, she isn't).
* (D'où venons-nous ? Que s)ommes-nous ? Où allons-nous ?
* Tsuchinoko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuchinoko)

and some others:
alien, infinity, timeless, out of place artifacts, innovation, aggressive, adventure, extrasensory perception, paranormal, telekinesis, invention, unidentified flying object, flying humanoid, possibility, pioneer, surprise, positiveness, as well as some units...

[Kaisos Erranon]

The only one that I think has any real plot relevance is Kyon's "key to everything".

And maybe "Gott ist tot", heh.

[Kitsu]

What's up with "Gott ist tot" :heh:
First she isn't second she isn't and why using german? Does my language get popular all of sudden or what...als...this line is stolen! I protest with that line against my ethic and religion teacher back then in 6th grade, the poor chalkboard and walls :heh:

[Jintor]

Probably because it was said first by Nietzsche, who happened to be German? : |

[Kitsu]

Yes! but why use german which no a** understands and not the translated one?

[Jintor]

Because it's the original, and anybody overanalysing the OP is a genius anyway.

Quite frankly if you know "God is Dead" in more than just a passing sense then you would probably know the original German for it. It's not that hard to know/remember anyway - Gott ist is already pretty easy.

[Kitsu]

Okay that's an argument...seriously I woud never actually looked at all those formulas...I always thought that was random background filling (in the case of the first op) and I bet with my lacking of math and physic knowledge wouldn't recognize them anyway

[dragon4dudes]

Would John Smith be relatively important to the plot?

[Kaisos Erranon]

Would John Smith be relatively important to the plot?

Gah, that was there? I didn't notice.

Well, that's a subset of "Key to everything" anyway, so...

[Vexx]

Yes! but why use german which no a** understands and not the translated one?

That's almost like asking why they're using the original physics equations instead of 'happy fun easy' grade school versions... :)

It isn't like German has anything to do with rocket science.... o.. wait. (:) )

[quigonkenny]

Detail. Or more specifically difference in detail. Changes in swimsuits and outfits. Almost no changes in Haruhi's dialogue. Changes in where Haruhi is pointing the telescope when she looks at Mars. Guess we know which side of the argument KyoAni sits on concerning whether Haruhi's powers can extend beyond Earth...
FFFFFFFF I DIDN'T NOTICE THAT

What... what does that mean!?
I won't go into any detail (that would be better left for the Ontology thread) but if you assume that Haruhi's powers are limited to Earth (which makes sense when you bring the Data Overmind into the mix), then its relationship to other celestial bodies (like Mars) would remain as they should be if there were nothing odd about the last 594 years. In other words, the position of Mars in the night sky would move forward 14 days each time they do the stargazing (assuming they do it the same night each time). The real mindfuck is that due to Haruhi's memory machinations, no one will find this odd, and due to the necessarily precise records that astronomers (and astrologers, for that matter) keep, there's only one way for her to do this. While Haruhi can't change the positions of the heavenly bodies during each repeat, she can change the entirety of recorded astronomical history.

But it's just a theory... ^_^

[C.A.]

I won't go into any detail (that would be better left for the Ontology thread) but if you assume that Haruhi's powers are limited to Earth (which makes sense when you bring the Data Overmind into the mix), then its relationship to other celestial bodies (like Mars) would remain as they should be if there were nothing odd about the last 594 years. In other words, the position of Mars in the night sky would move forward 14 days each time they do the stargazing (assuming they do it the same night each time). The real mindfuck is that due to Haruhi's memory machinations, no one will find this odd, and due to the necessarily precise records that astronomers (and astrologers, for that matter) keep, there's only one way for her to do this. While Haruhi can't change the positions of the heavenly bodies during each repeat, she can change the entirety of recorded astronomical history.

But it's just a theory... ^_^I'm quite sure Haruhi resets the entire universe, if she doesn't, the Earth is going to be hit by a meteor or comet during one of the resets. Staying in the same region of space for hundreds of years would mean waiting for a space collision.

One thing we don't know about the rooftop scenes is what time they're watching Mars. They could very well be watching Mars at 2 different times on the 2 resets shown. Seeing that the 1st Endless Eight we were not shown Haruhi and Mikuru sleeping, we can assume its earlier in the evening and they're not as tired as the 2nd Endless Eight, which could be later in the evening, close to midnight even.

The difference in time could mean that Mars could have a good time to travel across the sky and thus appear in different angles of the horizon.

[Roger Rambo]

*snip*
You don't quite comprehend how broken this is, do you. I shall have Atomic Robo give you a better sense of scale here.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7418/timetravel.jpg


If Haruhi sends the Earth back in time to it's original position every 20 days for over 500 years, the effect won't just be earth being in a funky orbital position in our solar system. The Earth will soon NOT be in the Solar system. It may not even be in the Orion arm. It probably won't even be in the milky way galaxy anymore. Changing the recorded history and memory of astronomy won't change the fact that everyone is freezing to death due to there being no nearby heat source to keep us alive.


Coincidentally, this is why time travel is useless without instantaneous infinite ranged FTL.

[C.A.]

lol awesome stuff.

Free time traveling especially on vehicles or portable devices is impossible, but time traveling through portals and 'gates' are still possible. 'Wormhole' time or dimensional traveling can work because you'll be taken through the tunnel and exit from a gate which you can be sure you will not end up in a random part in space.

Unless that wormhole crosses the path of some super massive object, a giant blackhole or quasar and you get pulled out of the wormhole to death.

[Roger Rambo]

Free time traveling especially on vehicles or portable devices is impossibleUnless you have a transporter with intergalactic range that transports you to the destination. Though it also has to have a mechanism for dealing with the difference in the relative velocities between the destination and you.

Transporting from one ship going .1c to another ship going at .2c is dangerious, since when you come on board the second ship you're moving at half the speed of the ship you're on, meaning it's gonna hit you at .1c.

Free time traveling especially on vehicles or portable devices is impossible, but time traveling through portals and 'gates' are still possible. 'Wormhole' time or dimensional traveling can work because you'll be taken through the tunnel and exit from a gate which you can be sure you will not end up in a random part in space.
Interestingly, this kind of time travel would explain why you never see time travelers. A time period needs to have time travel in order for a time traveler to travel to it.

[typhonsentra]

By the way, I don't know if we're supposed to read too much into the different position of Mars. They made a point of saying Nagato isn't effected because her consciousness isn't tied to a time or place. If the effects of Haruhi's power simply had a limited range they wouldn't have to note that. Most likely they just decided to go along with the change because it worked with their theme of tweaking repeated scenes without thinking of the implications. Also, Novel 1, Chapter 3:


"Three years ago, we discovered a very abnormal data hotspot unlike other humans appearing on the surface of this planet. The information sparks emitted from a certain area in the bow-shaped archipelago instantly covered the whole planet and started to spread towards outer space. And the center of all that is Suzumiya Haruhi."

[C.A.]

Unless you have a transporter with intergalactic range that transports you to the destination. Though it also has to have a mechanism for dealing with the difference in the relative velocities between the destination and you.

Transporting from one ship going .1c to another ship going at .2c is dangerious, since when you come on board the second ship you're moving at half the speed of the ship you're on, meaning it's gonna hit you at .1c.

Interestingly, this kind of time travel would explain why you never see time travelers. A time period needs to have time travel in order for a time traveler to travel to it.Yea, free intergalactic/dimensional travel will need a universal database or control to work. Xenosaga had UMN, Nadesico had Boson Jumping ruins. Maybe the Time Travellers in Haruhi has something like that.

For dealing with relative speed, I'm sure it can be fixed easily when such technology becomes widespread.

There would be lots of rules and limitations on how you can travel. Normally in fiction, they must be sure that the coordinates they're traveling to has no obstacles. And when traveling you must make sure there's no significant mass around you that will get dragged into your warp.

For gate traveling, you may be transported into a free floating chamber only to be suspended by a magnetic field, or an inertia free chamber, many ways to solve relative speed.

Professor Ronald Malett (http://www.physorg.com/news63371210.html), famous time travel theorist now working on a prototype time machine, knows that time travel will only bring you furthest in time to the time the machine is invented. This is the limitation of time traveling by sending through a machine. But he also says that if we were able to make contact with an alien civilisation way ahead of us in technology, we may be able to use their time machine to travel further back in time and return to our past Earth.

[stubby42]

But Haruhi seemed pretty up her *for want of a better phrase* space/time theories, if she has the power to loop time cant she just correct for the drift?

[C.A.]

But Haruhi seemed pretty up her *for want of a better phrase* space/time theories, if she has the power to loop time cant she just correct for the drift?She has no idea what she has done since she has no knowledge of her own powers. She caused it subconsciously and now the guys have to find a way for her to solve it subconsciously, which they haven't figured out yet.

[Roger Rambo]

But Haruhi seemed pretty up her *for want of a better phrase* space/time theories, if she has the power to loop time cant she just correct for the drift?
The simplest way to account for the drift would be just to wind back the entire universe.

[stubby42]

She has no idea what she has done since she has no knowledge of her own powers. She caused it subconsciously and now the guys have to find a way for her to solve it subconsciously, which they haven't figured out yet.

What I'm saying is Haruhi is correcting for the planet drifting out of alignment, if she knows all these scientific theories (which seems likely, shes probably obsessivly read everything) she could just be pushing it back sub consitiously.

Haruhi feels like this part of summer is a perfect moment in time, so they have to give her a reason to brake that loop which ultimatly is the suggestion of future happier moments.

Of course this is all speculation, the truth is the writers have probably never thought about the practicalities of time travel in that much detail, or if they did they chose to ignore it for the sake of the plot.

[Forbin]

The simplest way to account for the drift would be just to wind back the entire universe.

Man that probably just annoys Yuki's boss every time haruhi does that.

[Roger Rambo]

Almost everyone ignores the issue of time travel that Atomic Robo pointed out.

Man that probably just annoys Yuki's boss every time haruhi does that.
Not really. Since they can communicate through time, they don't lose anything. Plus the longer Haruhi keeps this up, the more time they have to observe her, especially since she's doing something really abnormal.

If anyone was annoyed at it, it was Yuki.

[Kaisos Erranon]

If anyone was annoyed at it, it was Yuki.

I wonder if any of the other interfaces were affected by this, actually.

[Roger Rambo]

I wonder if any of the other interfaces were affected by this, actually.It seems probable.

[Kaisos Erranon]

And about the extent of Haruhi's reset. I wonder if she only resets matter and not time itself. Or are Data Entities totally outside of time and reality of this universe.

Data Entities are Doc Manhattan. Yuki's memory exists completely outside of the timestream.

[C.A.]

Data Entities are Doc Manhattan. Yuki's memory exists completely outside of the timestream.That is easily understandable. But the problem lies with the universe itself.

We already discuss and concluded earlier on that Haruhi resets the entire universe and not just Earth itself, because Earth would just get left out in space.

Imagine now, if Haruhi only resets the universe itself, the universe will very likely get thrown off in the multiverse space and over thousands of times of resets, a parallel universe will very likely crash into the universe.

Could it be that Haruhi resets the entire multiverse? If so, it would affect all levels of dimensional space, this may even affect the Data Entities themselves even though they are higher dimensional beings. Could Data Entities exist outside of reality itself?

lol just trying to complicate things for the fun of it.

[C.A.]

Parallel universes and the multiverse do not work that way. Since the universe is infinite, parallel universes simply occupy the same location in space-time.Heh, seems like you didn't read my multiverse discussion (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2398316&postcount=2586) last time. multiverses described by you do not exist, or rather, is only a part of the Level III multiverse.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

To be called a multiverse, there must be other universes floating free in a multiversal space. Even though the universe is infinite, its the infinite space of the multiverse that the universe is occupying. And a universe is only as large as its observable horizon or as far as the earliest light has traveled. Beyond that, lies other parallel universes.

Parallel universes occupying the same space/time is just a single universe, with higher or lower dimensions. This single multidimensional universe is also only just one of the infinite other universes floating in the multiverse.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Heh, seems like you didn't read my multiverse discussion last time. multiverses described by you do not exist, or rather, is only a part of the Level III multiverse.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

To be called a multiverse, there must be other universes floating free in a multiversal space. Even though the universe is infinite, its the infinite space of the multiverse that the universe is occupying. And a universe is only as large as its observable horizon or as far as the earliest light has traveled. Beyond that, lies other parallel universes.

Parallel universes occupying the same space/time is just a single universe, with higher or lower dimensions. This single multidimensional universe is also only just one of the infinite other universes floating in the multiverse.

There's still no evidence they would crash into other universes.

But I can see Haruhi's powers certainly affecting EVERYTHING though.

[C.A.]

There's still no evidence they would crash into other universes.

But I can see Haruhi's powers certainly affecting EVERYTHING though.Oh, the wiki page is not detailed enough.

In fact even with a Level I Multiverse, universes collide all the time, and with Level II Multiverses and above, universes can also split apart infinitely, besides colliding.

When universes collide, its an event similar to a big bang, its a recreation of a universe.

[Kaioshin Sama]

That is easily understandable. But the problem lies with the universe itself.

We already discuss and concluded earlier on that Haruhi resets the entire universe and not just Earth itself, because Earth would just get left out in space.

Imagine now, if Haruhi only resets the universe itself, the universe will very likely get thrown off in the multiverse space and over thousands of times of resets, a parallel universe will very likely crash into the universe.

Could it be that Haruhi resets the entire multiverse? If so, it would affect all levels of dimensional space, this may even affect the Data Entities themselves even though they are higher dimensional beings. Could Data Entities exist outside of reality itself?

lol just trying to complicate things for the fun of it.

So you mean like the TS device in Orguss that causes various universe to collapse in upon one another? In my eyes Haruhi is more like Angel in Big Venus, she takes the role of a director within the show and unconciously or not influences the events and can even reset everything if she wants or needs to. Though unlike a true god who is omnipotent and omniscient, she can be negotiated with or influenced by other people as she is still unaware of her powers. Other then that I guess you could call her a mutant. The Scarlet Witch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_Witch) comes to mind.

[C.A.]

So you mean like the TS device in Orguss that causes various universe to collapse in upon one another? In my eyes Haruhi is more like Angel in Big Venus, she takes the role of a director within the show and unconciously or not influences the events and can even reset everything if she wants or needs to. Though unlike a true god who is omnipotent and omniscient, she can be negotiated with or influenced by other people as she is still unaware of her powers. Other then that I guess you could call her a mutant. The Scarlet Witch comes to mind.lolol we need more mecha fans to watch Haruhi, or more Haruhi fans to watch mecha, they don't know what they're missing.

Orguss's Time Oscillation Bomb is a good reference. Imagine if a universe receives a time quake of some sort and the dimensional walls collapse, the universes will merge. And if this time quake also freezes a universe in the multiversal space, it may be a good time for other universes to crash into it.

If Haruhi is Angel, Kyon is most definitely the Negotiator. The Great Will of the Universe could be the Data Entities, but the Data Entities have no real intention of messing around with the play.

[Kaioshin Sama]

lolol we need more mecha fans to watch Haruhi, or more Haruhi fans to watch mecha, they don't know what they're missing.

Orguss's Time Oscillation Bomb is a good reference. Imagine if a universe receives a time quake of some sort and the dimensional walls collapse, the universes will merge. And if this time quake also freezes a universe in the multiversal space, it may be a good time for other universes to crash into it.

If Haruhi is Angel, Kyon is most definitely the Negotiator. The Great Will of the Universe could be the Data Entities, but the Data Entities have no real intention of messing around with the play.

We really do don't we. Considering the amount of Sci-Fi and tropes in this series it would go an incredibly long way. And yes Kyon is the Negotiator, though not quite the gentleman in black. The Data Entity is probably the Database from SRW-W.

[CrowKenobi]

I personally like the DC Comics definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_%28DC_Comics%29) of multiverse: universes occupying the same space but vibrating at different frequencies... :D

:cool:

[C.A.]

We really do don't we. Considering the amount of Sci-Fi and tropes in this series it would go an incredibly long way. And yes Kyon is the Negotiator, though not quite the gentleman in black. The Data Entity is probably the Database from SRW-W.I mentioned in another thread that Ji Edel of SRWZ is Haruhi awakened and totally evil.

Aliens? Database, Balmar, actually too many.
Time travellers? Raul and Fiona with Excellence, Duminass etc.
Espers? The SRX Team, Kusuha and Bullet, GanEdens and too many others.
Sliders? Shura, the 'Time Divers', Roa, Dark Brain, Holy War participants and actually everyone else lol

SRW is Haruhi's perfect world lolI personally like the DC Comics definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_%28DC_Comics%29) of multiverse: universes occupying the same space but vibrating at different frequencies... :D

:cool:Yea its similar to what Kaisos mentioned. But seems like physics is even more imaginative than fiction and came up with a multiverse even broader than that.

With the Level III multiverse being a multiverse that follows the many worlds intepretation, all universes floating in the multiverse is just like a Marvel Multiverse. So actually the Marvel Multiverse is just one universe in real physics.

[C.A.]

lol just think of mecha science fiction as science fiction with hotbloodedness, burning passion, spirits of steel and guts.

I used to love Haruhi's hands most other than her eyes.

In the future, humans many not need to have any physical action at all, that's why they may become weak. Time Travellers could actually be the physically fittest humans of their time because of their need to go back in time.

[Kaisos Erranon]

With the Level III multiverse being a multiverse that follows the many worlds intepretation, all universes floating in the multiverse is just like a Marvel Multiverse. So actually the Marvel Multiverse is just one universe in real physics.

Who says the many-worlds interpretation is actually true? We really can't prove most of the interesting concepts quantum physics comes out with, because we have no way of measuring things like this.

It's really up to the writes of a sci-fi story to define what a "multiverse" is, in this case.


In the future, humans many not need to have any physical action at all, that's why they may become weak. Time Travellers could actually be the physically fittest humans of their time because of their need to go back in time.

And yet Mikuru is still crap at sports, as we see again last episode.

Poor Mikuru.

[Roger Rambo]

lol just think of mecha science fiction as science fiction with hotbloodedness, burning passion, spirits of steel and guts.
Still, it's hard to top setting of A-boms that you're sitting on to challenge the enemies dominance of your home planets orbit.

It has a sorta "WE ARE APES WHO WILL TEAR OFF YOUR SKULL AND DEFECATE ON YOUR BRAIN" vibe.


In the future, humans many not need to have any physical action at all, that's why they may become weak. Time Travellers could actually the physically fittest humans of their time because of their need to go back in time.
Or it could be that in the future, almost everyone lives in space colonies on extremely low gravities. Thus even the people who like to be physically active probably don't develop that much musculature.

[C.A.]

Who says the many-worlds interpretation is actually true? We really can't prove most of the interesting concepts quantum physics comes out with, because we have no way of measuring things like this.

It's really up to the writes of a sci-fi story to define what a "multiverse" is, in this case.

And yet Mikuru is still crap at sports, as we see again last episode.

Poor Mikuru.I'll rephrase it as 'in the concept of real physics'.

And what I'm pointing out is that by applying real physics theories, scientists actually expect something more fantastic than what was imagined as fiction.

Yes, Mikuru being as weak as she is, could actually be an example of a fit human from the future :heh:

[C.A.]

Still, it's hard to top setting of A-boms that you're sitting on to challenge the enemies dominance of your home planets orbit.

It has a sorta "WE ARE APES WHO WILL TEAR OFF YOUR SKULL AND DEFECATE ON YOUR BRAIN" vibe.

Or it could be that in the future, almost everyone lives in space colonies on extremely low gravities. Thus even the people who like to be physically active probably don't develop that much musculature.You've not seen what old school mecha can do. Ancient reptilian or demon species who has hidden themselves under the crust because they were defeated by an ancient super weapon, returns to the surface to take over the planet. Sometimes they threaten to blow the planet with anti-matter weapons or some bomb from the core. You wonder what planet will they be left to rule over.

Space invaders from a parallel world of the future, with psychic powers, try to invade Earth and try to capture this super energy technology in the planet's strongest super robot. They cannot achieve that because they cannot defeat this super robot with this energy source that they want so much.

Hmmm low gravity... Scientists growing cells in space found that they can't grow at all. But if its a low gravity planet, yea I think its possible. Time Travellers may actually come from Mars or something.

[Dakota]

Dear everybody trying to explain the universe:

http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php

Sincerely,
Dakota

[C.A.]

Everyone should watch that link, you will learn from it.

An extremely simple explanation of the ideas of the M Theory.

[quigonkenny]

You don't quite comprehend how broken this is, do you. I shall have Atomic Robo give you a better sense of scale here.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7418/timetravel.jpg
If Haruhi sends the Earth back in time to it's original position every 20 days for over 500 years, the effect won't just be earth being in a funky orbital position in our solar system. The Earth will soon NOT be in the Solar system. It may not even be in the Orion arm. It probably won't even be in the milky way galaxy anymore. Changing the recorded history and memory of astronomy won't change the fact that everyone is freezing to death due to there being no nearby heat source to keep us alive.
Well, first off, it's every 14 days, but that's not material to the discussion. If perhaps you had bothered reading what I wrote instead of just snipping it out of hand, you might have realized that I wasn't suggesting that Earth moves back to its original position. Quite the contrary. How would she move it to somewhere where, by the bounds of the theory, she has no power? And how does one misread "In other words, the position of Mars in the night sky would move forward 14 days each time they do the stargazing"? She's not changing the positions of any celestial bodies when she resets time, Earth included. She just subconsciously resets things back two weeks for everyone on Earth, and sub-subconsciously cooks the books so that no one notices that the stars (or planets) are in the wrong places.

But again, it's just a theory, and one with a lot of holes (Yuki's description of her discovery by the Data Overmind, as noted above) and easier explanations (they're stargazing later in the night, also as suggested above), but let's be honest. Just turning back the clock is boring, and this isn't a science paper, it's an anime.

Who says the many-worlds interpretation is actually true? We really can't prove most of the interesting concepts quantum physics comes out with, because we have no way of measuring things like this.

It's really up to the writes of a sci-fi story to define what a "multiverse" is, in this case.
QFT. In my day they called that stuff theoretical physics, and last I checked, no one has yet found any parallel/alternate/whatever universes in order to prove any of it, so it's all just smoke blowing. Nobel-level smoke blowing, admittedly, but a lot of times that's all it is until someone accidentally contaminates the Staphylococcus culture or sticks their hand in front of the Crookes tube.

[OkamiNoKaze]

Isn't there an anime Law that says everytime you try to bring logic and reason to an anime, Haruhi-sama kills a cat girl, or something like that. I think they're nearly extinct at this point.

[C.A.]

Haruhi is no normal anime. In fact Haruhi-sama invites you to join her in messing up logic, by bringing logic into discussion.

3 years ago we had a great time with such. But people seem to have less interest in such nowadays.

[Daniel E.]

Isn't there an anime Law that says everytime you try to bring logic and reason to an anime, Haruhi-sama kills a cat girl, or something like that. I think they're nearly extinct at this point.

http://g.imagehost.org/0913/catgirls-haruhi-ver.gif :p

[Kaioshin Sama]

http://g.imagehost.org/0913/catgirls-haruhi-ver.gif :p

How about everytime you drag real physics and into a discussion on about her show I kill a catgirl? It sounds more interesting that way. :eyespin:

[Daniel E.]

How about everytime you drag real physics and into a discussion on about her show I kill a catgirl? It sounds more interesting that way. :eyespin:

For what it's worth it, I actually find the current discussion quite interesting. :)

As for the gif..... I simply remembered it after reading OkamiNoKaze's post and decide to shop it a bit for the lulz of it. :p

[Skane]

http://g.imagehost.org/0913/catgirls-haruhi-ver.gif :p
Bear in mind that some of us don't give a damn about catgirls. Bring on the massacre.

Natch.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Haruhi knows this, and would replace the catgirl with something you do like.

[Roger Rambo]

Well, first off, it's every 14 days, but that's not material to the discussion. If perhaps you had bothered reading what I wrote instead of just snipping it out of hand, you might have realized that I wasn't suggesting that Earth moves back to its original position. Quite the contrary. How would she move it to somewhere where, by the bounds of the theory, she has no power? And how does one misread "In other words, the position of Mars in the night sky would move forward 14 days each time they do the stargazing"? She's not changing the positions of any celestial bodies when she resets time, Earth included. She just subconsciously resets things back two weeks for everyone on Earth, and sub-subconsciously cooks the books so that no one notices that the stars (or planets) are in the wrong places.The fact that she doesn't change the earths position every time she resets time is the very problem we're dealing with here. Suppose you have a personal time travel device and you decide to use it to go back 10 minutes into the past while flying on an airplane. The problem here is that 10 minutes ago your exact position HAS no air plane. So you fall into the ocean. If you sent a particular planet into the past, it's position relative to the solar system would change not because you moved it away from the Solar system, but because the solar system moved away from it.

This would only not be an issue if Haruhi really wasn't really sending the earth back in time, but just altering the earth to be in a state almost identical to that initial summer 500 odd years ago. In which case it wouldn't really be time travel. Of course if the loop created didn't actually have anything to do with time travel, one must wonder why it prevented Mikuru from time traveling.
http://g.imagehost.org/0913/catgirls-haruhi-ver.gif :p
Damn furries :frustrated:

:D

[Jimmy C]

Suppose you have a personal time travel device and you decide to use it to go back 10 minutes into the past while flying on an airplane. The problem here is that 10 minutes ago your exact position HAS no air plane. So you fall into the ocean.

It's a poor time machine that doesn't take relative motion into account. Most of the sf time machines that even bother to mention this detail also mention that they reverse (or something like that) your relative motion in the universe. Put it another way, if you're going backwards in time, why are you still moving forwards in space or standing still?

Of course if the loop created didn't actually have anything to do with time travel, one must wonder why it prevented Mikuru from time traveling.


This kind of timeloop is not a natural situation. Any way of doing it would involve removing the targeted part of the universe from the normal flow of time. Therefore, the "future" beyond the midnight of Aug 31 is no longer "there" for Mikuru to travel to or communicate with.

[Sol Falling]

I don't like bringing real physics or logic into discussions of fictional anime because the 'real' physics people start bringing up in order to explain stuff like time travel or alternate universes is crap.

On the issue of relative motion that's been brought up. The problem, you see, with applying that as an obstacle for some sort of time machine is that you are also assuming that space 'exists' in anything more than a local sense. Why should any one reference frame be preferable to another? If God picks the frame of 48 light years to the southwest of the Milky way for the conduction of my little time travel experiment, why can't I (equally objectively) pick the frame of the streetlamp anchored to the earth as my 'coordinates'? It's all the same.

But then again, that's also the problem with portal-based or teleporting time travel in the first place. Time doesn't exist in anything more than a local sense either. To be clear, that means that 'past' and 'future' don't exist either, in any sense beyond Laplace's claim that, if a sufficiently powerful intellect knew the position and velocity of every particle at a given time, it could calculate the position and velocity of any particle at any other time.

Time travel in Haruhi Suzumiya is dealt with by assuming the existance of a 'picturebook', to serve as a record and target point of various instances of 'past' and 'future'. This allows 'travel' by providing actual destinations. Scientifically, though, there is no reason for the existance of any such 'cosmic history', and any attempts to reconcile those fictional tropes with 'actual physics' are futile wastes of time.

[C.A.]

Like what I said, Haruhi is no normal anime, the show itself encourages people to discuss physics. And the mods recognise that, that's why we have this ontology thread here, the most amazing thread on AS. Most amazing because its a thread that allows you to mix real physics with Haruhi-sama's powers.

Anyway I don't get what you're trying to point out with the problem you see in relative motion.

When we were discussing relative motion, I believe we were talking about velocity and inertia upon entering and exiting a transporter. If you entered the transporter on a ship that's moving at 100km/h(keeping numbers small) and exit on a ship that's moving 125 km/h in the same direction, would you be thrown backwards at 25 km/h?

And for your last paragraph, if you've watched Dakota's link about, post #168, you can see that time in the 4th and 5th directions can work just like Haruhi's time travel.

[Roger Rambo]

When we were discussing relative motion, I believe we were talking about velocity and inertia upon entering and exiting a transporter. If you entered the transporter on a ship that's moving at 100km/h(keeping numbers small) and exit on a ship that's moving 125 km/h in the same direction, would you be thrown backwards at 25 km/h?
You would if you didn't have a way to account for the velocity.

In Schlock Mercenary, they handled the issue of a shuttle going .3c teraporting(I didn't misspell...) onto a Dyson Sphere by converting the extra kinetic energy into mass.

"Is that why I feel heavier?"

[Sol Falling]

Like what I said, Haruhi is no normal anime, the show itself encourages people to discuss physics. And the mods recognise that, that's why we have this ontology thread here, the most amazing thread on AS. Most amazing because its a thread that allows you to mix real physics with Haruhi-sama's powers.

Anyway I don't get what you're trying to point out with the problem you see in relative motion.

When we were discussing relative motion, I believe we were talking about velocity and inertia upon entering and exiting a transporter. If you entered the transporter on a ship that's moving at 100km/h(keeping numbers small) and exit on a ship that's moving 125 km/h in the same direction, would you be thrown backwards at 25 km/h?

And for your last paragraph, if you've watched Dakota's link about, post #168, you can see that time in the 4th and 5th directions can work just like Haruhi's time travel.

I was referring to an earlier issue based on how the earth is always moving, so that supposedly a 1 minute timeskip would leave you stranded in the middle of space.

As for the relative motion you are discussing, I don't really see why. If you charged into the transporter, then yeah, I could see you having some velocity coming out but if the transporter is travelling at the same speed as its surroundings then the effect should be the same as if it were standing still.

As for the link, I haven't looked at it, as I'd already spent some time going through wikipedia's articles on superstring theory last week. As such, I don't exactly know what you're referring to but if you're just saying that movement in the 4th and 5th spatial dimensions would appear to be teleportation-like movement, well...: 1) how exactly are humans supposed to move in the 4th and 5th dimensions? and 2) that still doesn't exactly solve the problem of moving to a 'past' or 'future' that doesn't exist.

[C.A.]

As for the relative motion you are discussing, I don't really see why. If you charged into the transporter, then yeah, I could see you having some velocity coming out but if the transporter is travelling at the same speed as its surroundings then the effect should be the same as if it were standing still.

As for the link, I haven't looked at it, as I'd already spent some time going through wikipedia's articles on superstring theory last week. As such, I don't exactly know what you're referring to but if you're just saying that movement in the 4th and 5th spatial dimensions would appear to be teleportation-like movement, well...: 1) how exactly are humans supposed to move in the 4th and 5th dimensions? and 2) that still doesn't exactly solve the problem of moving to a 'past' or 'future' that doesn't exist.Actually I'm still not sure about the relative velocity discussion. I'm not sure who's correct, you or Roger Rambo.

Do we relate our speed to the transporter of the ship we're transporting to or do we also relate to the ships?

For time discussion:

Time as the 4th dimension is a line made up of each moment in time stacked upon each other. This stack of moments of time is the 'picture book' you described, or frames like a film as described by Mikuru.

By folding the line, the 4th dimension, through the 5th dimension, you can travel from one moment of time to another moment of time.

[Sol Falling]

Actually, time as a rate of change is not 'made up' of anything. One moment is only connected to another by its current state and a derived rate of change (based on the current state). Past and future (as in, the physical reality of it) are an illusion: there is only matter, space, and a rate of change.

And I'm still not sure why the 5th dimension is even necessary. In the first place, what makes the 5th dimension preferable to the ones we can naturally access? As it is presumably a spatial dimension, just like the rest of them, its special features should be indistinguishable from the rest. This whole 'folding the (non-existant) line of time and walking through the fifth dimension' still sounds hilariously abstract to me.

[C.A.]

What does existance mean?

Time exists as much as any other magnitude, or dimension, which means they don't exist at all. What exists is the matter that's in the dimensions.

How long is that piece of matter? The 1st dimension.
How much area does that piece of matter cover? The 2nd dimension.
How much volume does that piece of matter occupy? The 3rd dimension.
How long did it take the piece of matter to cover the distance? The 4th dimension.

Rate of change is a dimension.

And the String theory itself has always been abstract, which is why there are skeptics.

There's no discussion going on if you don't understand, watch the video for a start:Dear everybody trying to explain the universe:

http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php

Sincerely,
Dakota

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

But then again, that's also the problem with portal-based or teleporting time travel in the first place. Time doesn't exist in anything more than a local sense either. To be clear, that means that 'past' and 'future' don't exist either, in any sense beyond Laplace's claim that, if a sufficiently powerful intellect knew the position and velocity of every particle at a given time, it could calculate the position and velocity of any particle at any other time.

Ironically, the part II of Endless Eight actually proved this can't happen with Haruhi's universe. In Haruhi's world, it is shown that random factors are truly random, as such even though the world was reset each time back to the same starting point, the people of the universe and everything else behaves slightly differently in every reboot.

The Newtonian views of the universe, that assumes everything is just bouncing particles that could be mathematically predicted, is at odds with those who follow Quantum physics. Haruhi, at least, believes in quantum.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Time travel in Haruhi Suzumiya is dealt with by assuming the existance of a 'picturebook', to serve as a record and target point of various instances of 'past' and 'future'. This allows 'travel' by providing actual destinations. Scientifically, though, there is no reason for the existance of any such 'cosmic history', and any attempts to reconcile those fictional tropes with 'actual physics' are futile wastes of time.

Just want to pop in and say that that view of time travel is a lie told to Kyon for whatever reason, as proven by every single instance of time travel in the later books.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Just want to pop in and say that that view of time travel is a lie told to Kyon for whatever reason, as proven by every single instance of time travel in the later books.

Or it could just be that Mikuru was miss-informed, which wouldn't be the first time.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Or it could just be that Mikuru was miss-informed, which wouldn't be the first time.

Hey, a lie told to Mikuru is still a lie told to Kyon.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

It's not like what she tells him is any less honest than what he gets from the other two...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Hey, a lie told to Mikuru is still a lie told to Kyon.

Being miss-informed doesn't necessarily mean she was lied to. Time travel is a messy business, and as Yuki said, Mikuru's people haven't truly mastered the art yet. So I am inclined to believe the information to the contrary is due to a lack of knowledge rather than deliberate deception.

[Kaisos Erranon]

It's not like what she tells him is any less honest than what he gets from the other two...

At least Yuki always tells him the truth.

She just doesn't tell him the WHOLE truth.

So I am inclined to believe the information to the contrary is due to a lack of knowledge rather than deliberate deception.

...Time travelers don't understand how the Novikov principle works? You'd think that'd be one of the first things they'd learn in the Time Academy...

[Sol Falling]

Ironically, the part II of Endless Eight actually proved this can't happen with Haruhi's universe. In Haruhi's world, it is shown that random factors are truly random, as such even though the world was reset each time back to the same starting point, the people of the universe and everything else behaves slightly differently in every reboot.

The Newtonian views of the universe, that assumes everything is just bouncing particles that could be mathematically predicted, is at odds with those who follow Quantum physics. Haruhi, at least, believes in quantum.

It was, of course, a historical claim. It's not that Haruhi believes in quantum physics, moreso that quantum physics is a reality. Although, I don't know that people behaving slightly differently in the event of a reboot is something quantum physics would predict.

My point with time travel though, was that there only ever exists the present moment in time. There is no abstract metaphysical 'stream' or 'stack', so that the only method by which access to past or future moments can be achieved must be to turn forward or back the very present. Past and future can also exist conceptually through a mental application of this process (observe an object's current state, derive an appropriate rate of change, and apply it to the object), but have no real physical basis.

Anyway, as for Mikuru's explanation being invalidated by her time travel, I didn't really get that sense? Her time travelling device is even called the Time Plane Destruction Device, so it seems to me that discrete time planes that record each moment in time is how stuff really works in the Haruhi universe.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Anyway, as for Mikuru's explanation being invalidated by her time travel, I didn't really get that sense? Her time travelling device is even called the Time Plane Destruction Device, so it seems to me that discrete time planes that record each moment in time is how stuff really works in the Haruhi universe.

She says that time travel cannot have any affect on the future, directly or indirectly, due to the time planes being separate, but that's invalidated by Kyon's time traveling in BLR.

If it worked the way she says it does, the current universe's Haruhi should have no idea who John Smith is.

You see what I'm getting at?

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Funny that you bring up BLR not too long after saying Nagato never lies... What was it she said in Melancholy about there being "no particularly unusual elements" during the three years they were observing Haruhi?

[Kaisos Erranon]

Funny that you bring up BLR not too long after saying Nagato never lies... What was it she said in Melancholy about there being "no particularly unusual elements" during the three years they were observing Haruhi?

Fine, she lies ONCE. :p

And then only to protect consistency.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

It was, of course, a historical claim. It's not that Haruhi believes in quantum physics, moreso that quantum physics is a reality. Although, I don't know that people behaving slightly differently in the event of a reboot is something quantum physics would predict....
Since Haruhi determines what is or isn't reality, one could argue there is no difference.
But yeah, the whole point about quantum mechanics is that randomness is truly real in their view. That even if everything starts in the same place, it doesn't mean it will end the same way. It is in direct odds with Newtonian views of the universe, which believed everything could be predicted if only you know all the data. The slight difference in event in a reboot is exactly what quantum would have predicted, except we don't have the technology to test it.

...Time travelers don't understand how the Novikov principle works? You'd think that'd be one of the first things they'd learn in the Time Academy...

Anyway, as for Mikuru's explanation being invalidated by her time travel, I didn't really get that sense? Her time travelling device is even called the Time Plane Destruction Device, so it seems to me that discrete time planes that record each moment in time is how stuff really works in the Haruhi universe.
To answer the both of you, I am just making the observation that Mikuru admitted she couldn't timetravel "flawlessly". At least, not compared to what Yuki can do. So assuming there are flaws, it could come out as unintended consequences that don't fall neatly into time travel theory.
It would be like trying to perform an experiment that works perfectly well in theory, but because of inherent flaws in the equipment the final result would have errors.

[quigonkenny]

She says that time travel cannot have any affect on the future, directly or indirectly, due to the time planes being separate, but that's invalidated by Kyon's time traveling in BLR.

If it worked the way she says it does, the current universe's Haruhi should have no idea who John Smith is.

You see what I'm getting at?
You're reading a bit too much into this quote:
"Between one time frame and another there are so-called temporal fault lines. They do exist, even though the frequency of the fault lines is near zero; so, there is no continuity between different time frames. Time traveling is the attempt to make a three-dimensional movement between the two-dimensional temporal planes. For me who has arrived from the future to this temporal plane, it is like adding an extra object, drawn onto the still image. Even if I attempted to change history in this age it would not affect the future, because there is no continuity between the time frames. Everything would stay in this temporal plane. It's like trying to add a few words on a still image from hundreds of still images: the overall story wouldn't be affected, right?" Yuki also stated in BLR that the TPDD "creates noise". Considering every instance of time travel that we've been a party to so far has involved some level of indirect effect on the future, all of which caused by Kyon, and all of which, so far, was predestined, I think we've maybe pinned down that definition of "noise" Yuki referred to.

Besides, even through all that indirect manipulation of the timestream, Mikuru's existence has remained viable, except when directly involving use of Haruhi's powers (ie: "Endless Eight"). Mikuru's telling the truth...from a certain point of view...

[Ithekro]

So we've gone from "Haruhi winding back time 14 days repeatedly for 594 years" to "Mikuru may or may not know how time travel works correctly"?

It is entirely possible that the explainations we get are not the entire story, since we generally only get theories out of Itsuki, who would only have early 21st centry (or perhaps only very late 20th century) theories to work with. Mikuru can only give a limited amount of information before she gets "classifed information" block. They don't usually ask Yuki to give all out explainations because none of them can handle the amount of data she can put out, plus she even admits that the verbal communication system can cause errors in the transfere of data for her species.

So we are left with whatever Kyon is given most of the time, along with what we think we can observe through him of Haruhi's actions. He may or may not be reliable for information.

Facts: We know Mikuru can travel though time. She can take at least one person with her. We know that two versions of Mikuru can occupy the same time plane at the same time (though the younger one is not to gain knowledge of her older self in the time plane). We know that the two Mikurus can physically contact each other without the universe exploding (Mikuru(BIG) touched Mikuru(small)'s cheek).

We know Yuki can stop time in a localized area. Her species reportedly has superior time travel abilities to the future humans represented by Mikuru. Yuki however states that what matters is that all data gets from one point in time to another...how it gets there does not matter. In her case, she more or less downloaded her future self's data into the past to interact correctly with Mikuru and Kyon, then froze all data in a localized area until the time around it reached the correct time frame. It is assumed she reset herself to her three years ago version after they left, but I'm not sure if this can be confirmed, or if she keeps experiancing multiple time loops because of Kyon, Mikuru, and Haruhi's actions in time travel and "endless" loops. If this is the case, then Yuki could be even older than 600 years old mentally. Placed on the planet, downloads future self once (3 years added), downloads future self again (or tries to anyway) (597 years added), 3 years waiting for Kyon, Endless Eight (594 years added), 1 year to present plus or minus additional minor loops....if she relived the Endless Eight twice due to a possible second download...lord...1,198 years old by the end of Book 9? Assuming she mentally relived those first 3 years over again twice due to downloading. If not, she may be lucky and only have to be 598 years old by the end of Book 9.

Old woman Yuki needs a hug baddly.

[quigonkenny]

So we've gone from "Haruhi winding back time 14 days repeatedly for 594 years" to "Mikuru may or may not know how time travel works correctly"?

It is entirely possible that the explainations we get are not the entire story, since we generally only get theories out of Itsuki, who would only have early 21st centry (or perhaps only very late 20th century) theories to work with. Mikuru can only give a limited amount of information before she gets "classifed information" block. They don't usually ask Yuki to give all out explainations because none of them can handle the amount of data she can put out, plus she even admits that the verbal communication system can cause errors in the transfere of data for her species.

So we are left with whatever Kyon is given most of the time, along with what we think we can observe through him of Haruhi's actions. He may or may not be reliable for information.

Facts: We know Mikuru can travel though time. She can take at least one person with her. We know that two versions of Mikuru can occupy the same time plane at the same time (though the younger one is not to gain knowledge of her older self in the time plane). We know that the two Mikurus can physically contact each other without the universe exploding (Mikuru(BIG) touched Mikuru(small)'s cheek).

We know Yuki can stop time in a localized area. Her species reportedly has superior time travel abilities to the future humans represented by Mikuru. Yuki however states that what matters is that all data gets from one point in time to another...how it gets there does not matter. In her case, she more or less downloaded her future self's data into the past to interact correctly with Mikuru and Kyon, then froze all data in a localized area until the time around it reached the correct time frame. It is assumed she reset herself to her three years ago version after they left, but I'm not sure if this can be confirmed, or if she keeps experiancing multiple time loops because of Kyon, Mikuru, and Haruhi's actions in time travel and "endless" loops. If this is the case, then Yuki could be even older than 600 years old mentally. Placed on the planet, downloads future self once (3 years added), downloads future self again (or tries to anyway) (597 years added), 3 years waiting for Kyon, Endless Eight (594 years added), 1 year to present plus or minus additional minor loops....if she relived the Endless Eight twice due to a possible second download...lord...1,198 years old by the end of Book 9? Assuming she mentally relived those first 3 years over again twice due to downloading. If not, she may be lucky and only have to be 598 years old by the end of Book 9.

Old woman Yuki needs a hug baddly.
I don't think Yuki bothered to reset herself after the synchonization. Why should she, when it wouldn't make any difference to her actions in the interim. Unlike with the Endless Eight scenario, the same timeframe isn't reoccurring over and over, so there's no variation. It's only a matter of Yuki pulling a particularly prescient Dr. Manhatten from the time she initiated the synchronization (3ya!Yuki) to the time she synchronized to (BLR?!Yuki). From her point of view, it may not have even seemed like multiple times through, since she never didn't synchronize. Also, Endless Eight doesn't necessarily play into it, as that happened after the events of BLR and the time that Yuki wrote out the bookmark, which is the logical time that 3ya!Yuki would have synchronized forward to.

The thing with Endless Eight is that her consciousness lives through that in its entirety, since there's variation from iteration to iteration, that it is her job to observe. Kinda why I think it might be interesting if KyoAni ran this last upcoming Endless Eight from Yuki's point of view. Technically it would be "filler", but I don't think anyone would mind such a stunt. Except for the Yuki-hating unbelievers, but no one cares about them...

[dragon4dudes]

Facts: We know Mikuru can travel though time. She can take at least one person with her. We know that two versions of Mikuru can occupy the same time plane at the same time (though the younger one is not to gain knowledge of her older self in the time plane). We know that the two Mikurus can physically contact each other without the universe exploding (Mikuru(BIG) touched Mikuru(small)'s cheek).

It's not that Mikuru(small) can't see Mikuru(big), Mikuru(small) can only see her older self if the older self remembers seeing her older self. If that worked out grammatically is up to you.

It is assumed she reset herself to her three years ago version after they left, but I'm not sure if this can be confirmed, or if she keeps experiancing multiple time loops because of Kyon, Mikuru, and Haruhi's actions in time travel and "endless" loops.

I don't think Yuki bothered to reset herself after the synchonization. Why should she, when it wouldn't make any difference to her actions in the interim. Unlike with the Endless Eight scenario, the same timeframe isn't reoccurring over and over, so there's no variation. It's only a matter of Yuki pulling a particularly prescient Dr. Manhatten from the time she initiated the synchronization (3ya!Yuki) to the time she synchronized to (BLR?!Yuki). From her point of view, it may not have even seemed like multiple times through, since she never didn't synchronize. Also, Endless Eight doesn't necessarily play into it, as that happened after the events of BLR and the time that Yuki wrote out the bookmark, which is the logical time that 3ya!Yuki would have synchronized forward to.

It is never elaborated on, but it is almost guaranteed that the 3ya version of Yuki retained all of the data that was sent back during syncronization. The fact that she both knew when the crisis at the end of Melancholy was going to happen and that she knew to give syncronize is evidence.

On the other hand, if we do assume that the syncronization occurs only within that 3 years, then Yuki's ability to predict the future would be evidence to the contrary.

The thing with Endless Eight is that her consciousness lives through that in its entirety, since there's variation from iteration to iteration, that it is her job to observe. Kinda why I think it might be interesting if KyoAni ran this last upcoming Endless Eight from Yuki's point of view. Technically it would be "filler", but I don't think anyone would mind such a stunt. Except for the Yuki-hating unbelievers, but no one cares about them...

Filler or not, they'll have to show how the Kyon gets them out of the mess.

[quigonkenny]

Filler or not, they'll have to show how the Kyon gets them out of the mess.
Yuki's present when that happens. There's been enough foreshadowing of how he does it that we won't necessarily need his inner monologue at the time. That and the plot of next episode should be much more like the second E8 than the first E8 was. Almost identical, as a matter of fact, right up until a few minutes from the end, considering how close the second E8 was to the novel. They'll need something to differentiate this one from the previous versions of E8.

[baltakatei]

From a thermodynamics point of view, each time reset would be require literally astronomically-high amounts of energy. When a cycle is reset, gas that has dispersed must be recollected into its original distribution. Photons that have escaped the stars must be restored to their original positions. Anything that has decayed (geological, biological, astrological, etc.) would need an outside source of energy to restore the original state of the universe (If the second law of thermodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics) is to be observed). I won't speculate on how exactly time travel works, but there is a HUGE difference in entropy from one state of the universe to the next. Where Haruhi pulls this energy from worries me a bit.

Does she use something akin to Maxwell's Demon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_demon) to get the required energy? Or is this impossible as wikipedia says, due to "information entropy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_entropy)"?

Any thoughts?

[C.A.]

Any thoughts?One thing we know is that the Data Entities confirms that she can produce anything out of nothing and is essentially a fountain of infinite data. She can produce infinite energy and mass, how she does that is our question here.

She could be a cosmic anomaly in human form, a topological defect somewhere in her mind, or be a being that's supposed to be in higher dimensions but somehow stays in the 3rd dimension. She could even be the physical manifestation of division by zero.

We will never know what she really is, because even the Data Entities have no idea.

[baltakatei]

I don't know about "physical manifestation of dividing by zero" since I can't wrap my head around that. But from what I *do* know, here is what I think: Haruhi represents to the Integrated Sentient Data Entity evidence that there is a space "outside" the the universe it inhabits that contains energy that Haruhi is able to tap into. Her ability to "create things out of nothing" could be the ability to shunt energy and information from outside in. She's a conduit into an outside arena that the ISDE doesn't inhabit or control. If I were the ISDE, I'd definitely be interested in potentially securing for myself a position in this outside arena.

Also, it may be a cop-out , but Mr. Tanigawa could make the universe we live in right now to be the one the ISDE is trying to expand into. =P A conclusion to the Haruhi series similar to this is something that I could be satisfied with.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

So, theoretically speaking, it's possible that Haruhi's powers could be fueled by the death and decay of our world, or perhaps even be the cause of it?

[Iaevuous]

That's interesting.

Wouldn't that make her powers be fueled the same way as an alchemic reaction is revealed to be fueled by? I smell crossovers.

[baltakatei]

So, theoretically speaking, it's possible that Haruhi's powers could be fueled by the death and decay of our world, or perhaps even be the cause of it?

Oo, that is interesting!

If people stop buying Haruhi-related paraphernalia, then whatever developments that might occur in the plot surrounding the SOS団 would slow to a halt. Conversely, the more money and attention people in the "real world" around us dedicate to Haruhi and her brigade, the longer her world will exist for us. =P

If people became so entranced by the antics of Haruhi that they forgot their roles in society, then yes, Haruhi would be accelerating the death and decay of our world. The decay rate would be measurable in terms of anime, manga, omake, and game sales.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Amusingly, having her powers fueled by stealing energy from another universe would actually serve as a brilliant excuse reason for sliders to be interested in her.

[C.A.]

I don't know about "physical manifestation of dividing by zero" since I can't wrap my head around that. But from what I *do* know, here is what I think: Haruhi represents to the Integrated Sentient Data Entity evidence that there is a space "outside" the the universe it inhabits that contains energy that Haruhi is able to tap into. Her ability to "create things out of nothing" could be the ability to shunt energy and information from outside in. She's a conduit into an outside arena that the ISDE doesn't inhabit or control. If I were the ISDE, I'd definitely be interested in potentially securing for myself a position in this outside arena.

Also, it may be a cop-out , but Mr. Tanigawa could make the universe we live in right now to be the one the ISDE is trying to expand into. =P A conclusion to the Haruhi series similar to this is something that I could be satisfied with.Kyon remarked once that her brain could be a white hole, where she gets all the ideas. It may turn out quite true that this white hole exists and is spewing data from higher dimensions and parallel universes.So, theoretically speaking, it's possible that Haruhi's powers could be fueled by the death and decay of our world, or perhaps even be the cause of it?The amount of energy that comes out of death and decay is about 0 in the face of the universe, Haruhi wouldn't have enough to fuel the scale of her doings.

Unless spirits of the dead exist and are used as a source of power.

[baltakatei]

Unless spirits of the dead exist and are used as a source of power.

That idea would be the place to start a Haruhi-Bleach crossover.

Amusingly, having her powers fueled by stealing energy from another universe would actually serve as a brilliant excuse reason for sliders to be interested in her.

I'd be all for that.

But as for the amount of energy consumed by Haruhi's antics, I wonder if there is a way to quantify it? How much energy decay is directly caused by people reading the novels? How about for any given novel that is published? The amount of energy burned in response to a work of fiction would be proportional to the amount of available energy and the size/influence of the audience, right? We could at least make an order-of-magnitude guess like was done with the Drake Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation).

[Sute443]

Any thoughts?

What you described (manually putting ever particle in the universe back the way it was) doesn't match the effects observed in Endless Eight. If Haruhi was putting every particle back the way it was then while it would seem like time was resetting to the characters, it wouldn't actually be doing so. This would allow time travelers from outside the time period of Endless Eight to interact with it simply by sending messages to any of the iterations they want, because all of them would be laid out to be seen.

This might help in visualizing it: Time in Haruhi has been explained as being somewhat analogous to a film, with each moment being an individual slide. In your example, there would be 500-some years worth of film of those two weeks playing over and over again. What I think Haruhi did was cut those two weeks out of the film and tape the ends of it together in such a way that the projector would just keep playing them over and over. Thus, no matter how many iterations there were, once reattached to the rest of the film there would only be those two weeks of film.

The differences in the iterations may come from the IDTE which, being outside of time, was unaffected and its knowledge could have influenced each of the loops (through Nagato's behavior, perhaps).

[Iaevuous]

Except hasn't that explanation of the time stream been called out for, you know, appearing to be bunk?

[Kaisos Erranon]

Except hasn't that explanation of the time stream been called out for, you know, appearing to be bunk?

Sort of. As has been explained to me, it's more Mikuru's assertion that her presence in the past cannot have any effect on the future that is bunk.

[Ithekro]

Haruhi's loop may reset perfectly each time, but after the reset probability sets in again, changing the outcome in minor (or major) ways each time...until it loops again.

Bit errors each time, but they don't seem to mount up since she's using the original as her copy source rather than copy of a copy of a copy.

And while the Time Travellers can't penetrate the loop (perhaps they could, but Mikuru's problem is that she's attempting to get contact from relative time ahead of her rather than actual time ahead of her, the she's connecting with loop 12,000 from loop 373 rather than 2009 to whatever year she is from. Thus her temporal coordinates are off enough that she doesn't make contact...her device is off tune, rather the future not existing), the aliens (or at least Yuki) are still fully intact each loop.

The aliens exist outside of Haruhi's space-time loop, thus at least Yuki's memories do not reset. One assumes she could be in contact with the outside world still, or she's managed to sync up with a future version that is far enough ahead to be outside the loop, thus she might know exactly when the loop with end...though that doesn't mean she won't be bored while still in the loop.

On the other hand, maybe the "future" does not exist anymore. There are in a sealed loop of time-space, never ending, always repeating. Mikuru's people are gone since there will never be a September, much less a future. Yuki's people are also gone, but her own mind exists outside of time, therefore there is a dimention that Haruhi's loop does not effect. However she might not be able to sync with a future self because there still is no future to sync with. Thus she does not know how to escape, nor when the looping will end, only what has happened inside the loop since it began.

The probability is about the only thing keeping Yuki even the slightest bit sane. Minor things excite her now. A new bug she catches, a new star to look at. A different mask to buy. A different set of clothes to see. (I'm suprised Yuki hasn't started wearing different clothes other than her school uniform over all these loops, just to keep from being bored.) Shifts in the weather, slight variations in activities. All things that keep Yuki from loosing herself. It isn't much as you can see the looping is getting to her by loop 15,498.

The techincal question is...what happens when they do escape the loop? What is time-space like when it finally becomes September 1st for Haruhi? Is everything in its correct place in the 4 dimentions she is known to be effecting with her loop? Will it be as if no loops happened (aside from Yuki's knowledge and the rest of the group's knowledge that they were looping)? Or will the universe outside be several hundred years older than it should be on Earth?

[Sute443]

Except hasn't that explanation of the time stream been called out for, you know, appearing to be bunk?

Plenty of people have objected to it because of how people from the future have seemed to influence the past even though the film analogy seems like it would prohibit such things, but I don't think it has been refuted. I recall Nagato saying something about how the time travelers' knowledge of time travel was incomplete, but unless there's more to it that I remember it doesn't refute this particular theory of time. I suspect the problems people have with Mikuru's explanation come from the analogy she used.

Let's see what happens when we drop the film analogy and think about what we know of time travel in Haruhi and what it requires. Time travelers are from the future; this requires that the future exists in some manner that can be reached without fully experiencing the intervening time. Time travelers have traveled to the past; this requires that the past exists in some form that can be reached even after we are finished experiencing it. Thus the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously and it is our perception of events that moves. How it moves, I do not know, but that isn't important right now.

To imagine the form a universe in which this is true would take, visualize an object, any object will do. Visualize the object in empty space and designate left and right as "past" and "future." Now imagine a chain of that object extending to the left leading to that object's creation and one to the right extending to its destruction. Congratulations, you have just imagined the 4D shape of an object. Extend this to the whole universe.

So in Endless Eight Haruhi has cut out a two-week segment of the universe and attached its ends together. There is no moving everything back because she has altered the 4D shapes of everything in the universe. The characters don't perceive this because they aren't capable of seeing 4D shapes without moving through time.

Ugh, I'm not sure if I was able to explain that adequately. Language sure is an inconvenient way of transmitting information.

Anyone got a better explanation?

[Takamura Mamoru]

On the other hand, maybe the "future" does not exist anymore.

This is actually stated in the show. There is no future beyond the loop end, which is the reason why Mikuru cannot return to her future or contact it. And that's why Yuki wouldn't be able to synchronize with her future.

Quite the disaster, if you think about it.

Yuki would however, be able to access her memories after a loop. I imagine it like that. End of the holidays, time loops. First thing that happens is that Yuki get's the information of what happend, since the Entity isn't affected by the time loop.

Not only would she think "I see, we've been repeating the holidays over and over again", she'd also have all the memories and experiences back, which leads to the boredom.

[Jintor]

This is actually stated in the show. There is no future beyond the loop end, which is the reason why Mikuru cannot return to her future or contact it. And that's why Yuki wouldn't be able to synchronize with her future.

Quite the disaster, if you think about it.


I've forgotton how the Haruhi universe really works in regards to time (in fact, I'm not sure it's ever been definitively established), but if there is "No Future" there should be no Mikuru, either. I don't know if that's ever been resolved, but it certainly is good material for fanwank.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I've forgotton how the Haruhi universe really works in regards to time (in fact, I'm not sure it's ever been definitively established), but if there is "No Future" there should be no Mikuru, either. I don't know if that's ever been resolved, but it certainly is good material for fanwank.

Are you saying laws of time and space has more power than Haruhi?

Haruhi want Mikuru there, so Mikuru is there. There is nothing to resolve; Haruhi is LAW. As such all temporal theories kneel before her.

All you need to know is this; there are rules concerning Time and Space in Haruhi's universe, and everyone follow it, even Yuki's people. But Haruhi does not. For Haruhi, there IS no rule. She decides how the universe works.

[Jintor]

I wonder if you could relate this to Mage The Awakening: What Haruhi truly believes is "Consensus" (except it's a Consensus of One, since she's the only important figure in this universe)

[Ithekro]

Just because the future "goes away" does mean the matter that entered the time loop goes away as well. Thus since Mikuru entered the time loop, she's in it, even if the time were she comes from is gone and thus she would "cease to exist".

On a techincal angle, the past ceases to exist as well as the future if they are in a closed loop, no beginning, no ending. If that were the case they all shouldn't exists since they have no past to be born either. Thus the theory that all matter within the closed loop will remain even if said matter shouldn't exist anymore because of the loop. This would be logical if the loop was made from a set period of time that was looped back on itself yet there is still a dimention were time continued as if nothing happened (no loop). Since this must be the case, otherwise Mikuru wouldn't exist in the first place if time did not progress forward in at least one timeline, this must be the truth.

[Takamura Mamoru]

According to Mikuru, time is not fluent.
It's kinda like a flip book. Looks fluent, but actually is just a lot of shots, only in this case these intervals are very very very small.

And so, if you scribble around on one page of the flip book, the next pages won't change.

...On the other hand, Kyon actually questioned this in the first episode of Season 2, because he influenced past Haruhi or something.

The answer?

"Axiomatic set theory offers no proof of its internal antinomies without antinomies."
or, in another translation
"As there is no set conclusion to the paradox theory, there is no way to prove that there is no paradox."

:confused:

[Jintor]

On a techincal angle, the past ceases to exist as well as the future if they are in a closed loop, no beginning, no ending. If that were the case they all shouldn't exists since they have no past to be born either. Thus the theory that all matter within the closed loop will remain even if said matter shouldn't exist anymore because of the loop. This would be logical if the loop was made from a set period of time that was looped back on itself yet there is still a dimention were time continued as if nothing happened (no loop). Since this must be the case, otherwise Mikuru wouldn't exist in the first place if time did not progress forward in at least one timeline, this must be the truth.

Actually there's no way to verify that the past exists or does not exist, since Haruhi can pretty much create a universe that 'has a past' immediately at any time.

Takamura: Mikuru is either lying or has been told wrong information, because that simply doesn't work given what Kyon experienced.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Takamura: Mikuru is either lying or has been told wrong information, because that simply doesn't work given what Kyon experienced.

The third possibility is that what Kyon experienced simply wasn't 'technically" possible, that only occurred because Haruhi was involved.

Look at it another way; from the Cricket incident, Yuki made the point that the SOS-dan room had been altered by the very PRESENCE of Haruhi to the point that outside factors have trouble harming people within it. The room, in effect, is in its own mini-dimension due to contamination of divinity.

All this is just another way of saying "Haruhi Did It". This is of course, not logical, but is none the less a required element we all have to keep in mind.

What Yuki, Itsuki and Mikuru does, follows existing rules of their universe. As such we can analyze their actions in order to test the waters concerning their universe. But the Factor X would always be Haruhi; the rule breaker.

[Jintor]

I guess 'contaminant by divinity' is a kind of HaruhiDidIt but I think that on the whole she might need to know about spacetime and/or be actively thinking about it before it happens.

I wonder if Haruhi really does have universe-CREATING powers like we posit for Seitenkan existance purposes.

[Takamura Mamoru]

"I believe this is what Asahina Mikuru thinks,"

Nagato said as though she could read my mind.

"Suzumiya Haruhi isn't the creator and was not responsible for the creation of this world. This world has existed in this state since long ago. The supernatural existence of espers, temporal anomalies and alien life forms wasn't created through the wishes of Suzumiya Haruhi, and has existed since long before that. Suzumiya Haruhi's task is to unconsciously discover the existence of these beings. She started using her abilities three years ago, but her discoveries have not led her to become self-aware. She is able to search for the paranormal, but it contradicts with her own views on the paranormal world. This is because one faction is still preventing her from becoming self-aware."

She calmly spoke without even smiling. Nagato looked at me with her piercing eyes as she said the above, she then said the following before closing her mouth,

"And that would be us."

It's a boring volume, but Sighs does give us a lot of new theories regarding Haruhi's existence.

[Guernsey]

So Haruhi may not be the Goddess that everyone believes but that still doesn't explian what Kyon's role in this, is he the real God or is he a slider?

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Kyon is the key. He is Haruhi's enabler. He is John Smith. There is nothing more to him than that.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

So Haruhi may not be the Goddess that everyone believes but that still doesn't explian what Kyon's role in this, is he the real God or is he a slider?

You don't need to have superpowers to be someone special. Power isn't everything.

[dragon4dudes]

Not only is the key, he's also the wallet

[Ithekro]

Well people do tend to keep their keys with their wallet.

[dragon4dudes]

I don't... Am I not normal?

[Takamura Mamoru]

Kyon is the key.

And this is precisely why I firmly refuse to accept any theories regarding Kyon being anything other than normal. It simply would erase the very foundation his character is based upon.

He's normal, yet the key to everything. He's ordinary, yet Haruhi still loves him.
There's a huge contrast between the crazyness and the fiction and him.
If it were to be revealed that, say, he's god, this would all be meaningless.

I can't deny that the theories have a lot of hints, but I refuse to accept it.

[Sute443]

He's normal, yet the key to everything. He's ordinary, yet Haruhi still loves him.
There's a huge contrast between the crazyness and the fiction and him.

I was just thinking about that the other day, and I suddenly realized why Haruhi drew Kyon to her even though he's a normal human. She's too sensible for her own good (or at least, for her to grant her own stated desires).

Haruhi wants aliens/time travelers/espers/sliders but "knows" that they can't really exist. This led her to the idea that she needs to accept the world as it is. This is not a thought she enjoys and in fact actively opposes, but I'm betting some small part of her wished for someone who could show her that being normal is okay. Thus, we have Kyon.

[dragon4dudes]

Thus, we have Kyon.

One of my understandings (yes, I understood that more than one way, one of which, I hope, is the correct one) of that statement is that Kyon exists because Haruhi wants him to. Another is that Kyon's personality exists because Haruhi wishes for it. Yet another is Kyon becomes friends with Haruhi because Haruhi wishes is so. There are a few more thoughts, but that should be enough.

[Sute443]

One of my understandings (yes, I understood that more than one way, one of which, I hope, is the correct one) of that statement is that Kyon exists because Haruhi wants him to. Another is that Kyon's personality exists because Haruhi wishes for it. Yet another is Kyon becomes friends with Haruhi because Haruhi wishes is so. There are a few more thoughts, but that should be enough.

I was going for the third one. Haruhi summoned Kyon because he fit what she subconsciously decided she needs.

[CrowKenobi]

You've got it wrong... at least one aspect of it. Haruhi is really interested in "John Smith," who happens to be Kyon... the rest more or less remains the same. :D

And Itsuki in the movie explains exactly what Kyon's purpose is:
In any case, he... No. In this scene, it would be me; I am the key, correct? And that key itself is unable to effect anything. The key is merely a means to open the door. When the door is opened, something will change.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

That's pretty much where the key thing came from, yes. :heh:

[CrowKenobi]

That's pretty much where the key thing came from, yes. :heh:And not Ghostbusters! (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=570269#post570269) :naughty: :heh:

[Ithekro]

Haruhi is not the "Gatekeeper" She's what is behind the gate.

[CrowKenobi]

Haruhi is not the "Gatekeeper" She's what is behind the gate.
Actually, she's both. :D

Haruhi is the gatekeeper because of her common sense; her power is what's behind the gate... :uhoh:

[Ithekro]

Wouldn't Mikuru, Yuki, and Itsuki be the gatekeepers? As well as the watchers.

They keep the gate and only through them does the key have access to what lies beyond ("Snow White", "Sleeping Beauty", "Why don't you you come up from behind her and say 'I love you'.")

[mitsuganae]

As to what Kyon and Haruhi are, I prefer Yuki's take on it in her short story in Indignation:

"The man started singing in a low voice. Synchronizing with the white cloth's dance."

Of course, Kyon is so dense that he doesn't realize who the man and the woman wearing the white cloth represent.

Just popped in to say that. Will pop out now.

[Sol Falling]

They keep the gate and only through them does the key have access to what lies beyond ("Snow White", "Sleeping Beauty", "Why don't you you come up from behind her and say 'I love you'.")

...All this key/gate talk is getting kinda sexual.

[Kaisos Erranon]

As to what Kyon and Haruhi are, I prefer Yuki's take on it in her short story in Indignation:

"The man started singing in a low voice. Synchronizing with the white cloth's dance."

Of course, Kyon is so dense that he doesn't realize who the man and the woman wearing the white cloth represent.

Just popped in to say that. Will pop out now.

I always thought the characters in the short story were Koizumi and Mikuru, not Kyon and Haruhi.

[mitsuganae]

Well, that's what Kyon thinks too!

I myself think otherwise, but of course I may be wrong.

[panzerfan]

Well Kaisos, looks like it's time we head over to Copenhagen and look at Bohr and the gang once more...
(And I am surprised that ontology thread will see a return from the dead like this. I will fill up my argument once I start looking up at research)

@Kaisos Erranon: Because it's a return to the Future with Clannad AS.

I just started to read about Transactional interpretation and it seems to explain Nagato pretty good, well up to a point...

Basically, unlike Clannad Afterstory, the world view of Haruhi is firmly grounded with the idea of waveform collapse, which...


those who hold to the Copenhagen understanding are willing to say that a wave function involves the various probabilities that a given event will proceed to certain different outcomes. But when one or another of those more- or less-likely outcomes becomes manifest the other probabilities cease to have any function in the real world. So if an electron passes through a double slit apparatus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment) there are various probabilities for where on the detection screen that individual electron will hit. But once it has hit, there is no longer any probability whatsoever that it will hit somewhere else. Many-worlds interpretations say that an electron hits wherever there is a possibility that it might hit, and that each of these hits occurs in a separate universe.


So in some sense, Kyon is causing these wavefunction collapse by favoring certain possibilities. (I think prior discussion have delved into this)

It is damn tempting for me to try looking at Endless Eight as a case of many worlds, but this runs completely against the copenhagen views. In short, I am going to spend the time looking at how one can have these 2 week loops, having nagato retaining all of the memories and kyon the conventional observer knowing nothing and all.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Well Kaisos, looks like it's time we head over to Copenhagen and look at Bohr and the gang once more...

What? I know you're talking about quantum physics, but why are you addressing me?

[PraiseDivineMercy]

Wow, I've haven't seen a anime-inspired conversation like this since the Noein thread.

As one who enjoys the study of theology, I applaud of the use of the word "ontology" here. It definitely had me laughing! ;)

Aye, that's my favorite .... but it basically implies that Free Will is an illusion or that the timeline is so resilient that free will choices are swamped out by the "inevitable tendencies". Physics-wise, the multiple-verses of timelines seems to fit the available data the best though the debate is still on in science.
Although this one timeline only theory is often best ignored in literature, it's the theory I subscribe to, as it counters the idea of time paradoxes. However, I would say that it can paradoxically support free will. The idea being that an original choice of free will shapes time itself in certain way that cannot be easily changed.

I've heard that in the original novels, "dimensional travelers" is always included alongside espers, time travelers, and aliens in the list that Haruhi cites.