View Full Version : Higurashi Episode 8 Discussion / Poll
Welcome to the discussion thread for Higurashi no Naku Koroni, Episode 8.
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ADDITIONAL RULES FOR Higurashi no Naku Koroni
Make sure you read the English wikipedia article for Higurashi no Naku Koroni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higurashi_no_Naku_Koro_ni) before you ask questions!!!
Feel free to share your theories and speculations. In fact, I encourage you to do so as this is what makes this series interesting.
I am designating Sushi-Y and Freakman to lead the discussion in the correct path without spoilers as they have played the game in advance. I put confidence in them that they will recognize a member has spilled the beans too far if any other members has begun to play the game.
SPOILERS FAR ADVANCED THAN THE CURRENT AIRED ANIME EPISODE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. THIS INCLUDES THOSE IN SPOILER TAGS!!!. People tend to peek at spoiler tags; especially when they do not know such tag is meant for the episode, only to find it spilling the beans too far advanced in the game storyline.
Circular Logic
2006-05-23, 12:11
Well, the finale of Watanagashi-hen seems to be set to be a good one.
*Circular_Logic rubs hands expectantly.
Well by looking at the caps up on 2chan, I guess it is safe to say that Rika's suicide at the beginning of Ep. 5 was a prelude to the Watanagashi-hen's answer chapter, Meakashi-hen. So, quite a long time until we get there until most people learn the tricks and answers for this chapter.
Next week is Tatarigoroshi-hen. I feel depressed already.
Erhm, after that little blooper apparently, I think I'll reword my speculations.
I used to think it was Mion pretending to be Shion during the warehouse, but the more I thought about it, and especially after ep 7, I really couldn't tell who was who anymore. It could really have been Mion going nuts by the end of Watanagashi (I really loved the crazy bits, btw, even moreso than Rena's in the first arc;) ) or it could've been Shion.
One thing that seems to be pegging it as Mion going nuts and Shion being the one to die from apparently throwing herself off her apartment, is that if they had really switched, the police officers would've seen Mion's tattoo on the back of her body.
Either the series decided to not show that, or another possibility is that Shion found a way to get rid of Mion's tattoo from Mion's body.
Or something that could've happened---though a bit more supernatural than I'm comfortable with at this point---is that they somehow performed a real switcheroo and Shion and Mion switched bodies. But maybe the demon tattoo is more than just a decoration symbolizing the heir to the Sonozaki house, but has real power. So when Shion takes over, the demon takes over her and makes her go totally balls-nuts.
Aaarrrg, this is mystifying!!! :eyespin:
Well, well, this is better. Since this final episode only had to cover the final day of Watanagashi-hen (+ epilogue), it didn't feel nearly as rushed as the others.
There were some nicely done moments, but some not so nicely done moments as well. I'll note them in the highlight:
Just like the game, the day started with Keiichi and Rena deciding to confront Mion once and for all.
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)ht tp://img214.imageshack.us/img214/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"I don't think anyone has reprimanded Keiichi-kun yet, so I'll reprimand Keiichi-kun instead."
Rena knows that Keiichi has been feeling guilty for breaking into the equipment chamber, more so when people started dying, that's why, by reprimanding him, she's knows it'll make him feel a little better.
I think this scene was the decisive moment that proved Rena as a true friend of Keiichi's. It's also proof of Rena's thoughtfulness and kindness.
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http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"Have you no shame!?"
Rena angry. (’ ・ω・`) Again, a serious side of Rena that most people probably didn't think existed.
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http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)ht tp://img389.imageshack.us/img389/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
(Nice expressions)
Mion's confession scene, in general, was well done, however, two things that were slightly disappointing for me:
1) Mion's tone and expressions were far too tense and aggressive. Mion was supposed to talk in a polite, calm voice with an empty, sad look on her face.
2) They took a 30-minutes confession scene and shortened it down to... 3 minutes? As a result, many interesting stories, including the history of the Sonozaki family, the recovery of Hinamizawa after WWII, and the canned human meat incident were all left out.
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http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img468.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)ht tp://img149.imageshack.us/img149/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)ht tp://img362.imageshack.us/img362/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)ht tp://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6013/124021236812425123751239812394.th.jpg (http://img192.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123751239812394.jpg)ht tp://img192.imageshack.us/img192/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img192.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)ht tp://img362.imageshack.us/img362/6062/315320835441dktv704x396divx622.th.jpg (http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=315320835441dktv704x396divx622.jpg)
Yukino Satsuki's great talent shows off here. :heh: I wonder what it feels like to watch a scene where you're speaking over your own screaming (she's the voice actress for both Mion and Shion). ^^;
By the way, the anime left out some good clues here (again), so I'll point them out here:
1) In the game, when Shion (in the cell) saw Mion, she called her "Onee" (big sis), so for those of you who's thinking about the whole twins swap theory, there's a clue.
2) The reason why Mion kept Shion alive was because she was saving her until the end. Mion wanted to kill her in a best, most painful way after forcing her to watch the death of all the other captives first.
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Nicely done moment #1
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"If Mion's demon can be calmed by this, then go ahead until you're satisifed."
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"But in exchange, promise me two things. First, let Shion go."
"Coming this far, you're still more worried about Shion than yourself?"
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"And second, give that body back to Mion... That's all."
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"Haven't you thought about begging for your life or anything like that?"
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"Well then, third, don't kill me."
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6013/124021236812425123751239812394.th.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123751239812394.jpg)
"Hahaha... You said two in the beginning, so it's too late now."
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"That's a pity then." (In the game, they then laughed. "It felt almost as if this was another club activity")
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Nicely done moment #2
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"I probably can't keep the promises, since I'm a demon."
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6013/124021236812425123751239812394.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123751239812394.jpg)
"But, It's okay for me to listen to just that third wish just now."
"Eh?"
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"About saving Shion, that's impossible now. Shion is going to be killed by the demon, so it can't be stopped anymore. Give it up."
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"Give this body back to Mion, that's also impossible now."
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"I'm sorry... for dirtying Mion."
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"No matter what happens, the Mion inside me will never change."
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
"But forget about me. After today, even if you see me again, don't come close, okay? Because that's the demon who will have possessed my corpse."
Ok ok, stop.
----------------------
Now then, the biggest sin of this episode:
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
The doll's missing. The doll's missing.
Keiichi spent all his money and bought an identical doll, hoping he would see Mion again one more time before he moves so that he can give it to her. And just when he finally got his chance...
The scene in the manga, showing the doll bloodied by Keiichi's blood, and Keiichi trying to wipe the blood off the doll, only making it more bloody. All the while Mion's psychotic laugh rings in the background... That was one of the most emotional scenes in the entire story. Really, what were the anime composers thinking? (`・ω・´)
The epilogue was rushed over as well. In the end, we learned that Mion has been found at the bottom of the well dead on the day that the police saved Keiichi and Shion (3 days before she appeared and stabbed Keiichi) (flashback: "After today, even if you see me again, don't come close, okay? Because that's the demon who will have possessed my corpse.").
But the lack of portrayal of Shion's unstable mental condition after she was rescued and placed in a safe house was another disappointment. Her bodyguard could hear her arguing with herself in her room, almost "as if Shion and Mion was having an argument", and finally, Shion suiciding at around the same time Keiichi got stabbed. All of this are important clues that should've been mentioned.
Now then... Tatarigoroshi-hen next week. My favorite chapter featuring my favorite character (Satoko), boy I hope they can pull it off well.
Why do I get a feeling like they're going to cut out the whole baseball competition thing? :uhoh: Hate mails will fly if they do.
MakubeX2
2006-05-23, 22:11
I actually prefer the finale of Watanagashi-hen in the manga where....
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8948/11484350265256wd.jpg
Shion crawls up to Keichi after he wakes up in the hospital.
Why didn't they animate that ?
chrno_the_sinner
2006-05-24, 00:00
I actually prefer the finale of Watanagashi-hen in the manga where....
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8948/11484350265256wd.jpg
Shion crawls up to Keichi after he wakes up in the hospital.
Why didn't they animate that ?
I've decided to come out of lurker mode to (a) finally discuss the series and (b) say "OH MY GOD THAT IS ONE OF THE FREAKIEST, SCARIEST THINGS THAT I HAVE SEEN IN MY ENTIRE LIFE!!"
Thank you. I'll post more when I actually see the episode... but I think I'll probably love it.
Mei Hikari
2006-05-24, 00:08
I clicked the show button and almost fell out of my chair.
Thanks a lot, man.
I actually prefer the finale of Watanagashi-hen in the manga
Why didn't they animate that ?
Hey, at least they animated *something*. I wanted my doll scene! :frustrated:
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/9281/124021236812425123753219127969.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123753219127969.jpg)ht tp://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1280/12186do.th.jpghttp://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9281/124021236812425123753219127969.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=12186do.jpg)
Moogster
2006-05-24, 00:36
I actually prefer the finale of Watanagashi-hen in the manga where....
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8948/11484350265256wd.jpg
Shion crawls up to Keichi after he wakes up in the hospital.
Why didn't they animate that ?
damn man that freaked me out.. :(
AAaaaarghhhh... and KYAaaaaaaaahhh...
Teh horrorr...
Beware of the nails...
10/10
Eleutheria
2006-05-24, 05:06
Gawd, that scared the hell out of me.
My speculations concerning the episode + some questions:
The girl who threw herself out of the apartment was Shion. She was probably visited by zombie-oni Mion and tried to escape through the window.
Did Oishi-san really say that Takano-san "was already dead" when Keiichi visited the warehouse, and that Mion's body was found in the mass burial mound? I listened to it twice but didn't quite catch it.
Now we have a good explanation for Rena's psycho moods in Onikakushi-hen. Merely a function of her detective abilities manifesting. At the very least she got away with no injuries in this act.
Rika-chan, Satoko-chan :(:(:(:( Well we saw a preview of how Rika will die, but I hate to think of how the demon did away with Satoko....
Is Mion schizophrenic? Or did a demon take on Mion's form and do everything? I really don't want a supernatural explanation to all this, but if it is the work of humans, then it is all the more horrible.
Regarding Sushi-Y's commentary:
1) In the game, when Shion (in the cell) saw Mion, she called her "Onee" (big sis), so for those of you who's thinking about the whole twins swap theory, there's a clue.
We already know Mion is the older sister, but please...don't tell me they are triplets.
In the end, we learned that Mion has been found at the bottom of the well dead on the day that the police saved Keiichi and Shion
I guess I could explain both Keiichi's thumb torture and Shion's apparent suicide in the epilogue by way of mental hallucinations... Shion by virtue of amazing torture and Keiichi by parallel-universe medical history. But it isn't satisfying.
Paracelsus
2006-05-24, 05:45
But still I do not get all this urge to nail Keiichi's little finger >.>
After watching this episode, I have some questions/assumptions:
1.What if the burned body that police found was NOT Takano's?
It is not very hard to make a fake, after all...
If the assumption is true, then Takano faked her death and was still well alive in somewhere else. (Since her behaver in Ep 6 I don't quite believe everything about her)
2.If Mion was already dead after K1 was rescued, and there was not some supernatural/zombie thing, then the one who stabbed K1 in the night was Shion.
Then if Shion is the one who is crazy, can I say Shion killed Mion because she wanted to take over the Sonozaki family? Anyway, we haven't see their back(and of course the tattoo)
3.In Onikakushi, we see K1 might have some paranoia, so the Zombie Mion thing might be his hallucination. This time the talk with Oishi in the hospital could be the "trigger" for the paranoia.
Anyway, a great episode, 10/10
As I remember the only way to recognize nurse's body was to check her dental record, it wouldn’t have been too hard to just change documents. But for what reason? With this episode I’m pretty sure Shion changed places with Mion, but I can’t find out what lies behind her behavior, if it wasn’t real Oni then it must have been some really strong psychotropic. If so, I would bet a nurse is still alive (we didn’t see a doctor in this episode...)
And what Shion has done to poor Mion. Mion was so frightened... Good thing Rena is at least alive... 10 points
The girl who threw herself out of the apartment was Shion. She was probably visited by zombie-oni Mion and tried to escape through the window.
Did Oishi-san really say that Takano-san "was already dead" when Keiichi visited the warehouse, and that Mion's body was found in the mass burial mound? I listened to it twice but didn't quite catch it.
Now we have a good explanation for Rena's psycho moods in Onikakushi-hen. Merely a function of her detective abilities manifesting. At the very least she got away with no injuries in this act.
Rika-chan, Satoko-chan :(:(:(:( Well we saw a preview of how Rika will die, but I hate to think of how the demon did away with Satoko....
Is Mion schizophrenic? Or did a demon take on Mion's form and do everything? I really don't want a supernatural explanation to all this, but if it is the work of humans, then it is all the more horrible.
Takano, according to the coroners, has already been dead for 24 hours before her burnt body was discovered in the mountains of Gifu soon after the festival. In other words, Takano would've been "already dead" on the day of Watanagashi festival.
Mion's dead body was discovered at the bottom of the hidden underground well, along with the other victims (the Chief, Rika, Satoko, etc.). The coroners placed her time of death at around the same time the police broke in and rescued Keiichi and Shion.
As for Rika and Satoko, if you want a glimpse of what Meakashi-hen will be like, take a look at the MAD video I mentioned in this post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=568813&postcount=25). ;)
As for you last question, that's what they want you to think about. Is this the work of man? Or is Oyashirosama the one at work here?
Regarding Sushi-Y's commentary:
We already know Mion is the older sister, but please...don't tell me they are triplets.
Oh, dear no, that's not what I mean.
Let me put it this way: what if Shion called Mion "Shion" instead? What would that mean? Obviously, it would mean that they have swapped places and that "Shion" inside the cell was actually Mion.
But since Shion called Mion "Onee", what does that suggest? You figure it out from there.
After watching this episode, I have some questions/assumptions:
1.What if the burned body that police found was NOT Takano's?
It is not very hard to make a fake, after all...
If the assumption is true, then Takano faked her death and was still well alive in somewhere else. (Since her behaver in Ep 6 I don't quite believe everything about her)
2.If Mion was already dead after K1 was rescued, and there was not some supernatural/zombie thing, then the one who stabbed K1 in the night was Shion.
Then if Shion is the one who is crazy, can I say Shion killed Mion because she wanted to take over the Sonozaki family? Anyway, we haven't see their back(and of course the tattoo)
3.In Onikakushi, we see K1 might have some paranoia, so the Zombie Mion thing might be his hallucination. This time the talk with Oishi in the hospital could be the "trigger" for the paranoia.
1. Well, assuming you're right, where will you go from there?
At the very least, keep that possibility in your mind.
2. But remember, Shion was found dead the same night Keiichi was stabbed. She fell from the balcony of her safe-house 8 stories (I think?) above the ground. Shion's own bodyguard outside the door at the time reported hearing arguments coming from Shion's suite, and that it sounded like the sisters were arguing with each other, just like the old times (the bodyguard has been with the Sonozaki sisters since they were little). By the time the bodyguard and the landlord entered the room, the room was a mess, and Shion had already fallen off the balcony.
Of course, the most logical thing would be to think that Mion was there, and that she pushed Shion off the balcany. However, we also know that Mion was already long dead by that time, so there was no way she could've been there to push Shion off the balcony... Unless Mion was right and her corpse was really possessed by the demon.
For this reason, combined with Shion's unstable mental condition, the police believed that suicide was the most likely reason for Shion's death.
Ahh, really, there were a lot of interesting clues that the anime left out. For example, the police also recovered a broken syringe from Rika's body. Obviously, it's not something you'd usually walk around with, especially not when you're only trying to get some soy sauce from a neighbour, so what could it be? (By the way, the police wasn't able to tell what was contained inside the syringe)
3. That's certainly possible. By the way, in the game, by the time the bloody Mion showed up beside Keiichi's bed, he wasn't surprised at all anymore, in fact, he was even trying to make jokes with Mion about him being the 3rd "walking dead".
Paracelsus
2006-05-24, 07:42
If I got that video right, then
Shion pushed Mion outside the window, then kept with the ownage dressed like Mion >.>...but come to think of it...Makube's manga posted pic clearly said that was Shion the "zombie" in the hospital...so like, wtf <.<;;;
And poor Satoko -___-
physics223
2006-05-24, 08:44
I want to ask: is wind (fansubbers) okay enough for you? I'm waiting for Ayu, but they're too slow. Their quality is great - I can even say through the roof.
I want to ask: is wind (fansubbers) okay enough for you? I'm waiting for Ayu, but they're too slow. Their quality is great - I can even say through the roof.
That is something you have to judge for yourself. I personally think they are pretty good and subbing sensibly in accordance to the nuance of the show. Not bad for a new group.
Rasuberi
2006-05-24, 12:12
Hey, at least they animated *something*. I wanted my doll scene! :frustrated:
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/9281/124021236812425123753219127969.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123753219127969.jpg)ht tp://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1280/12186do.th.jpghttp://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9281/124021236812425123753219127969.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=12186do.jpg)
That is one of the most beautiful scenes I have ever seen. <3 Ah, it would have been lovely if the animated it. >__<; I loved the scenes with terrified Shion. I really like Yukino Satsuki too... I hope she doesn't go insane after acting these two lovely insane twins. ^__^;
Midrange
2006-05-24, 13:10
Ahh, really, there were a lot of interesting clues that the anime left out. For example, the police also recovered a broken syringe from Rika's body. Obviously, it's not something you'd usually walk around with, especially not when you're only trying to get some soy sauce from a neighbour, so what could it be? (By the way, the police wasn't able to tell what was contained inside the syringe)
So, if Kei went nuts in the first chapter, Mion and Rena are presumably normal, and they brought a syringe and tried to inject it--but Kei kills them both. This time Mion goes nuts, and Rika (and Satoko) bring a syringe to Mion--but Mion kills them both. Rika seems to know everything, so maybe she knew Mion went crazy and brought her an antipsychotic? :uhoh:
Or maybe some hallucinogenic drug (soy sauce?) to keep Mion in her crazed state :heh:
...Doesn't explain why Kei and Shion are going nuts at the end, though. Did Mion scare them so badly that Kei stabbed himself and Shion tossed herself out the window? What if Mion was dressed as Takano? She could have scared Tomitake into tearing open his own throat...
And where's Rena the whole time?
New theory: There's something in the water :rolleyes:
Thewanderer
2006-05-24, 13:25
So, if Kei went nuts in the first chapter, Mion and Rena are presumably normal, and they brought a syringe and tried to inject it--but Kei kills them both. This time Mion goes nuts, and Rika (and Satoko) bring a syringe to Mion--but Mion kills them both. Rika seems to know everything, so maybe she knew Mion went crazy and brought her an antipsychotic? :uhoh:
Kinda like my second theory. I'm suprised it's consistant with this chapter as well. But...WTF would a little 10year old be doing w/a vaccine/cure/whatever anyway? And how can she know everything? my theory: She could be a/the demon...
I think this episode was well done. Sure they might've left out some interesting things such as explaining the post-war rise of the Sonozaki family, but time-wise they were able to incorporate as much detail as possible. But the doll? I wonder why the staff left that out...
Otherwise, we are now finished with Onikakushi and Watanagashi. Onwards to Tatarigoroshi - while not as creepy as the previous two, it surely is going to be the most depressing.
Of course, Keiichi could've just been imagining that Mion was holding a syringe in episode 4 instead of something else, considering his delusional state at the time.
I personally think he was quite lucid during Watanagashi-hen, imo.
Now, I just came up with a crazy theory of my own regarding Mion and Shion:
Sushi-Y's enlightening of what actually happened in the game got me thinking. If it were really Shion inside the cell, then it wouldn't be a problem, but what if it was Mion? Why would she call Shion "Onee?"
And then it slowly started to dawn on me.
First, consider Mion's status as heir to the Sonozaki yakuza. Not just a little part of it, but the whole thing. I've always wondered, why? Mion seems devious on the outside but we all know she's kind-hearted, soft, and pretty open in the inside. And judging from the TIPS thread, we know that she's a bad liar as well.
On the other hand, Shion comes off as nice and feminine on the outside, but we've all seen how devious and manipulative she can be in the inside.
So I kept thinking, who in their right mind in the Sonozaki family would label Mion as the official heir when the perfect person for the job is Shion?
And then it hit me. Mion ISN'T the heir to the Sonozaki household. SHION is.
All this time, I've been thinking in circles, trying to come up with reasons to justify Mion's status as Sonozaki heir, but the answer was so simple. She just simply ISN'T the heir.
Consider the bit of Sonozaki history covered in the TIPS thread. Twins were traditionally both killed to prevent conflict over the position as heir to the household. So why spare Mion and Shion in this case? Why deviate from tradition?
The answer is simple. To use one of the twins as a false heir, and as a decoy to soak up all the troubles that may come as the two grow up, while the real heir remains safe. As Shion said, Mion apparently has a lot of enemies. If someone were to try to assassinate the heir of the Sonozaki household, they'd just be killing off the false heir, whilst the real one then takes over and deals with the offenders with her superior yakuza skills.
Additionally they took the deception one step further. Shion's real name is Mion, and Mion's real name is Shion. The real Mion is the older, and the real Shion is the younger, but they've been pretending to be opposites for nearly their whole lives. This would explain why fake Mion (real Shion) (in the cell), with her mental fortitude broken down and all rationale seemingly shattered, would forget her deception and call the other 'Onee.' Because, in truth, fake Shion (real Mion) IS the 'onee.' It would also explain the repeated element of Keiichi questioning Shion or Mion's identity. First, over the phone with "Shion" and secondly inside the torture chamber, at "Mion." I think the creators were trying to tell us all something there.
This would also explain why the police made no mention of a tattoo on real Shion's (Fake Mion for all this time) dead body after she threw herself off that apartment. Obviously the false heir would have no tattoo on her back. And this may also explain her apparent arguing with herself in the game; she's lived as one person pretending to be another person her whole life. This has gotta make an impact if one went crazy afterwards.
All this, to me, mostly solidifies the theory that it was Mion (Real Shion---damn, this is getting confusing:p ) who led Keiichi into the warehouse. Thus, Rika's statement about the cats may have been referring to the onee (Real Mion, fake Shion) becoming angry with the imouto (real Shion, fake Mion) breaking into the shrine warehouse---an act considered evil in Hinamizawa. But that still doesn't fully explain why the onee got so pissed at the imouto. I think there's more to her anger than just the trespassing of the warehouse. Something that I hope will be explained in Meakaishi-hen.
But anyway, that would break everything down to the real imouto leading Keiichi into the warehouse, breaking sacred tradition. Everything else follows as I theorized before (somewhere in this forum), but as of yet it's still an incomplete theory.
I'm pretty sure it was the Onee during the phone call at the end of episode 6, but the phone conversations after that are a bit ambiguous. But I think I have a fairly good idea of what happened and who was who:
Remember that the last time anyone has ever seen "Shion" was right after the library. Additionally this was when Imouto was disguising as "Shion." Now, imagine that the Onee is now out there, after Imouto's life. Would Imouto have the time to change back into Mion when she's on the run?
Secondly, remember "Shion's" confession over the phone to Keiichi that she confessed to the village chief. We then follow with Keiichi's realization that the only time "Shion" would've had the chance to confess to the chief would be after he had disappeared.
But what if it was RIGHT BEFORE he disappeared? What is the Imouto caught up to the chief after he left the meeting and confessed. She goes away, the chief goes away, but gets snatched up (by the Onee most likely). "Confessed after he disappeared" can still mean a lot of things, and cover a fair amount of time. That was the last time anyone ELSE had seen of him. Doesn't mean Imouto couldn't have seen him after that particular time.
So Imouto confesses to Keiichi that she confessed to the village chief. But why does Imouto stay in Shion disguise during that particular phone call? I think there are a couple of reasons why:
1. She's nervous and panicked for her life and she's reverting to her more formal, feminine, real Shion self.
2. She knows that Onee is out there, as Mion. Apparently Onee is now taking over her real Mion identity, intending to erase the false heir from the world. Would it really do any real good to pose as Onee? Considering that she led him into the warehouse as Shion. It would do more harm than good to confuse Keiichi by suddenly speaking to him as Mion regarding the confession, the warehouse, and all that during that chief's disappearance phone call. Doing so would cause Keiichi to suddenly become suspicious on why "Mion" suddenly knows everything about what happened between him and "Shion". And not to mention, the town knows that "Shion" is missing. That fact could do better in getting Keiichi to maybe join the search effort, rather than "Mion" calling him about it.
The third phone conversation at the end of episode 7 was Onee, not Imouto,posing as "Shion." (also explains why we don't see her face like we did in the second conversation) I think by this time she has caught Imouto and got her to confess about confessing to the village chief and telling Keiichi and all that. BUT, not to exact detail. Which is why "Shion" in this conversation is so vague about WHERE and WHEN she confessed to the village chief. Knowledge that Imouto would know, but didn't tell Onee (or simply because Onee hasn't caught Imouto at this point, and is simply going on vague knowledge or assumptions).
So when Keiichi declares that the only time "Shion" could've confessed to the chief is after his disappearance, Onee laughes, as if maybe at the fact that Keiichi seems to have figured her out, because of the demon's influence, or whatever.
So, to summarize, Mion, as we knew her, is actually the REAL Shion, and Shion as we knew her is actually the REAL Mion, who is the real heir to the Sonozakis, and not the real Shion, who we've thought all this time was Mion.
The OP was also designed to trick us. It shows "Mion" with her tattoo, but that's actually not the Mion we've known all along. The happy, go-lucky, and soft girl we knew as "Mion" is actually the other girl, facing the girl with the tattoo.
Also note that the posture they are in is of a Yin Yang in this way:
http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/9152/yinyang0nx.th.jpg (http://img334.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yinyang0nx.jpg)
(I believe that's the most "Official" portrayal of a Yin Yang. There are variants that are reversed, inverted, etc)
with the head near the "dot" area. Now look at the colors. "Mion" is on the left, and "Shion" is on the right. Who do we know has a 'light' outside and a 'dark' inside? Mion? Nope, it's Shion! And the same for the other, with dark outside, but light inside.
Maybe it's all simple coincidence. Or not.
Kinda like my second theory. I'm suprised it's consistant with this chapter as well. But...WTF would a little 10year old be doing w/a vaccine/cure/whatever anyway? And how can she know everything? my theory: She could be a/the demon...
More about Rika will be revealed in Himatsubushi-hen, the 4th chapter. It's the final question chapter, and it throws a pretty big curve ball. So watch for that.
Otherwise, we are now finished with Onikakushi and Watanagashi. Onwards to Tatarigoroshi - while not as creepy as the previous two, it surely is going to be the most depressing.
What are you talking about? The bath___ scene scared the crap outta me,
"No way... NO WAY.... SATOKOoOoO!! Σ(゜Д゜；) omgomgnonononoSatokOOOOO"
Like that. :heh:
Now, I just came up with a crazy theory of my own regarding Mion and Shion:
Sushi-Y's enlightening of what actually happened in the game got me thinking. If it were really Shion inside the cell, then it wouldn't be a problem, but what if it was Mion? Why would she call Shion "Onee?"
And then it slowly started to dawn on me.
First, consider Mion's status as heir to the Sonozaki yakuza. Not just a little part of it, but the whole thing. I've always wondered, why? Mion seems devious on the outside but we all know she's kind-hearted, soft, and pretty open in the inside. And judging from the TIPS thread, we know that she's a bad liar as well.
On the other hand, Shion comes off as nice and feminine on the outside, but we've all seen how devious and manipulative she can be in the inside.
So I kept thinking, who in their right mind in the Sonozaki family would label Mion as the official heir when the perfect person for the job is Shion?
And then it hit me. Mion ISN'T the heir to the Sonozaki household. SHION is.
All this time, I've been thinking in circles, trying to come up with reasons to justify Mion's status as Sonozaki heir, but the answer was so simple. She just simply ISN'T the heir.
Consider the bit of Sonozaki history covered in the TIPS thread. Twins were traditionally both killed to prevent conflict over the position as heir to the household. So why spare Mion and Shion in this case? Why deviate from tradition?
The answer is simple. To use one of the twins as a false heir, and as a decoy to soak up all the troubles that may come as the two grow up, while the real heir remains safe. As Shion said, Mion apparently has a lot of enemies. If someone were to try to assassinate the heir of the Sonozaki household, they'd just be killing off the false heir, whilst the real one then takes over and deals with the offenders with her superior yakuza skills.
Additionally they took the deception one step further. Shion's real name is Mion, and Mion's real name is Shion. The real Mion is the older, and the real Shion is the younger, but they've been pretending to be opposites for nearly their whole lives. This would explain why fake Mion (real Shion) (in the cell), with her mental fortitude broken down and all rationale seemingly shattered, would forget her deception and call the other 'Onee.' Because, in truth, fake Shion (real Mion) IS the 'onee.' It would also explain the repeated element of Keiichi questioning Shion or Mion's identity. First, over the phone with "Shion" and secondly inside the torture chamber, at "Mion." I think the creators were trying to tell us all something there.
This would also explain why the police made no mention of a tattoo on real Shion's (Fake Mion for all this time) dead body after she threw herself off that apartment. Obviously the false heir would have no tattoo on her back. And this may also explain her apparent arguing with herself in the game; she's lived as one person pretending to be another person her whole life. This has gotta make an impact if one went crazy afterwards.
All this, to me, mostly solidifies the theory that it was Mion (Real Shion---damn, this is getting confusing:p ) who led Keiichi into the warehouse. Thus, Rika's statement about the cats may have been referring to the onee (Real Mion, fake Shion) becoming angry with the imouto (real Shion, fake Mion) breaking into the shrine warehouse---an act considered evil in Hinamizawa. But that still doesn't fully explain why the onee got so pissed at the imouto. I think there's more to her anger than just the trespassing of the warehouse. Something that I hope will be explained in Meakaishi-hen.
But anyway, that would break everything down to the real imouto leading Keiichi into the warehouse, breaking sacred tradition. Everything else follows as I theorized before (somewhere in this forum), but as of yet it's still an incomplete theory.
I'm pretty sure it was the Onee during the phone call at the end of episode 6, but the phone conversations after that are a bit ambiguous. But I think I have a fairly good idea of what happened and who was who:
Remember that the last time anyone has ever seen "Shion" was right after the library. Additionally this was when Imouto was disguising as "Shion." Now, imagine that the Onee is now out there, after Imouto's life. Would Imouto have the time to change back into Mion when she's on the run?
Secondly, remember "Shion's" confession over the phone to Keiichi that she confessed to the village chief. We then follow with Keiichi's realization that the only time "Shion" would've had the chance to confess to the chief would be after he had disappeared.
But what if it was RIGHT BEFORE he disappeared? What is the Imouto caught up to the chief after he left the meeting and confessed. She goes away, the chief goes away, but gets snatched up (by the Onee most likely). "Confessed after he disappeared" can still mean a lot of things, and cover a fair amount of time. That was the last time anyone ELSE had seen of him. Doesn't mean Imouto couldn't have seen him after that particular time.
So Imouto confesses to Keiichi that she confessed to the village chief. But why does Imouto stay in Shion disguise during that particular phone call? I think there are a couple of reasons why:
1. She's nervous and panicked for her life and she's reverting to her more formal, feminine, real Shion self.
2. She knows that Onee is out there, as Mion. Apparently Onee is now taking over her real Mion identity, intending to erase the false heir from the world. Would it really do any real good to pose as Onee? Considering that she led him into the warehouse as Shion. It would do more harm than good to confuse Keiichi by suddenly speaking to him as Mion regarding the confession, the warehouse, and all that during that chief's disappearance phone call. Doing so would cause Keiichi to suddenly become suspicious on why "Mion" suddenly knows everything about what happened between him and "Shion". And not to mention, the town knows that "Shion" is missing. That fact could do better in getting Keiichi to maybe join the search effort, rather than "Mion" calling him about it.
The third phone conversation at the end of episode 7 was Onee, not Imouto,posing as "Shion." I think by this time she has caught Imouto and got her to confess about confessing to the village chief and telling Keiichi and all that. BUT, not to exact detail. Which is why "Shion" in this conversation is so vague about WHERE and WHEN she confessed to the village chief. Knowledge that Imouto would know, but didn't tell Onee (or simply because Onee hasn't caught Imouto at this point, and is simply going on vague knowledge or assumptions).
So when Keiichi declares that the only time "Shion" could've confessed to the chief is after his disappearance, Onee laughes, as if maybe at the fact that Keiichi seems to have figured her out, because of the demon's influence, or whatever.
So, to summarize, Mion, as we knew her, is actually the REAL Shion, and Shion as we knew her is actually the REAL Mion, who is the real heir to the Sonozakis, and not the real Shion, who we've thought all this time was Mion.
The OP was also designed to trick us. It shows "Mion" with her tattoo, but that's actually not the Mion we've known all along. The happy, go-lucky, and soft girl we knew as "Mion" is actually the other girl, facing the girl with the tattoo.
Also note that the posture they are in is of a Yin Yang in this way:
http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/9152/yinyang0nx.th.jpg (http://img334.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yinyang0nx.jpg)
(I believe that's the most "Official" portrayal of a Yin Yang. There are variants that are reversed, inverted, etc)
with the head near the "dot" area. Now look at the colors. "Mion" is on the left, and "Shion" is on the right. Who do we know has a 'light' outside and a 'dark' inside? Mion? Nope, it's Shion! And the same for the other, with dark outside, but light inside.
Maybe it's all simple coincidence. Or not.
Σ(゜Д゜；)
That's a very well thought out theory. But damn, you got all that from "Onee"? (゜Д゜；) If only I could tell you more...
Of course, Keiichi could've just been imagining that Mion was holding a syringe in episode 4 instead of something else, considering his delusional state at the time.
I personally think he was quite lucid during Watanagashi-hen, imo.
Now, I just came up with a crazy theory of my own regarding Mion and Shion:
Sushi-Y's enlightening of what actually happened in the game got me thinking. If it were really Shion inside the cell, then it wouldn't be a problem, but what if it was Mion? Why would she call Shion "Onee?"
And then it slowly started to dawn on me.
First, consider Mion's status as heir to the Sonozaki yakuza. Not just a little part of it, but the whole thing. I've always wondered, why? Mion seems devious on the outside but we all know she's kind-hearted, soft, and pretty open in the inside. And judging from the TIPS thread, we know that she's a bad liar as well.
On the other hand, Shion comes off as nice and feminine on the outside, but we've all seen how devious and manipulative she can be in the inside.
So I kept thinking, who in their right mind in the Sonozaki family would label Mion as the official heir when the perfect person for the job is Shion?
And then it hit me. Mion ISN'T the heir to the Sonozaki household. SHION is.
All this time, I've been thinking in circles, trying to come up with reasons to justify Mion's status as Sonozaki heir, but the answer was so simple. She just simply ISN'T the heir.
Consider the bit of Sonozaki history covered in the TIPS thread. Twins were traditionally both killed to prevent conflict over the position as heir to the household. So why spare Mion and Shion in this case? Why deviate from tradition?
The answer is simple. To use one of the twins as a false heir, and as a decoy to soak up all the troubles that may come as the two grow up, while the real heir remains safe. As Shion said, Mion apparently has a lot of enemies. If someone were to try to assassinate the heir of the Sonozaki household, they'd just be killing off the false heir, whilst the real one then takes over and deals with the offenders with her superior yakuza skills.
Additionally they took the deception one step further. Shion's real name is Mion, and Mion's real name is Shion. The real Mion is the older, and the real Shion is the younger, but they've been pretending to be opposites for nearly their whole lives. This would explain why fake Mion (real Shion) (in the cell), with her mental fortitude broken down and all rationale seemingly shattered, would forget her deception and call the other 'Onee.' Because, in truth, fake Shion (real Mion) IS the 'onee.' It would also explain the repeated element of Keiichi questioning Shion or Mion's identity. First, over the phone with "Shion" and secondly inside the torture chamber, at "Mion." I think the creators were trying to tell us all something there.
This would also explain why the police made no mention of a tattoo on real Shion's (Fake Mion for all this time) dead body after she threw herself off that apartment. Obviously the false heir would have no tattoo on her back. And this may also explain her apparent arguing with herself in the game; she's lived as one person pretending to be another person her whole life. This has gotta make an impact if one went crazy afterwards.
All this, to me, mostly solidifies the theory that it was Mion (Real Shion---damn, this is getting confusing:p ) who led Keiichi into the warehouse. Thus, Rika's statement about the cats may have been referring to the onee (Real Mion, fake Shion) becoming angry with the imouto (real Shion, fake Mion) breaking into the shrine warehouse---an act considered evil in Hinamizawa. But that still doesn't fully explain why the onee got so pissed at the imouto. I think there's more to her anger than just the trespassing of the warehouse. Something that I hope will be explained in Meakaishi-hen.
But anyway, that would break everything down to the real imouto leading Keiichi into the warehouse, breaking sacred tradition. Everything else follows as I theorized before (somewhere in this forum), but as of yet it's still an incomplete theory.
I'm pretty sure it was the Onee during the phone call at the end of episode 6, but the phone conversations after that are a bit ambiguous. But I think I have a fairly good idea of what happened and who was who:
Remember that the last time anyone has ever seen "Shion" was right after the library. Additionally this was when Imouto was disguising as "Shion." Now, imagine that the Onee is now out there, after Imouto's life. Would Imouto have the time to change back into Mion when she's on the run?
Secondly, remember "Shion's" confession over the phone to Keiichi that she confessed to the village chief. We then follow with Keiichi's realization that the only time "Shion" would've had the chance to confess to the chief would be after he had disappeared.
But what if it was RIGHT BEFORE he disappeared? What is the Imouto caught up to the chief after he left the meeting and confessed. She goes away, the chief goes away, but gets snatched up (by the Onee most likely). "Confessed after he disappeared" can still mean a lot of things, and cover a fair amount of time. That was the last time anyone ELSE had seen of him. Doesn't mean Imouto couldn't have seen him after that particular time.
So Imouto confesses to Keiichi that she confessed to the village chief. But why does Imouto stay in Shion disguise during that particular phone call? I think there are a couple of reasons why:
1. She's nervous and panicked for her life and she's reverting to her more formal, feminine, real Shion self.
2. She knows that Onee is out there, as Mion. Apparently Onee is now taking over her real Mion identity, intending to erase the false heir from the world. Would it really do any real good to pose as Onee? Considering that she led him into the warehouse as Shion. It would do more harm than good to confuse Keiichi by suddenly speaking to him as Mion regarding the confession, the warehouse, and all that during that chief's disappearance phone call. Doing so would cause Keiichi to suddenly become suspicious on why "Mion" suddenly knows everything about what happened between him and "Shion". And not to mention, the town knows that "Shion" is missing. That fact could do better in getting Keiichi to maybe join the search effort, rather than "Mion" calling him about it.
The third phone conversation at the end of episode 7 was Onee, not Imouto,posing as "Shion." (also explains why we don't see her face like we did in the second conversation) I think by this time she has caught Imouto and got her to confess about confessing to the village chief and telling Keiichi and all that. BUT, not to exact detail. Which is why "Shion" in this conversation is so vague about WHERE and WHEN she confessed to the village chief. Knowledge that Imouto would know, but didn't tell Onee (or simply because Onee hasn't caught Imouto at this point, and is simply going on vague knowledge or assumptions).
So when Keiichi declares that the only time "Shion" could've confessed to the chief is after his disappearance, Onee laughes, as if maybe at the fact that Keiichi seems to have figured her out, because of the demon's influence, or whatever.
So, to summarize, Mion, as we knew her, is actually the REAL Shion, and Shion as we knew her is actually the REAL Mion, who is the real heir to the Sonozakis, and not the real Shion, who we've thought all this time was Mion.
The OP was also designed to trick us. It shows "Mion" with her tattoo, but that's actually not the Mion we've known all along. The happy, go-lucky, and soft girl we knew as "Mion" is actually the other girl, facing the girl with the tattoo.
Also note that the posture they are in is of a Yin Yang in this way:
http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/9152/yinyang0nx.th.jpg (http://img334.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yinyang0nx.jpg)
(I believe that's the most "Official" portrayal of a Yin Yang. There are variants that are reversed, inverted, etc)
with the head near the "dot" area. Now look at the colors. "Mion" is on the left, and "Shion" is on the right. Who do we know has a 'light' outside and a 'dark' inside? Mion? Nope, it's Shion! And the same for the other, with dark outside, but light inside.
Maybe it's all simple coincidence. Or not.
I totally agree you here.
This assumption may be the most close theory of what happened in Wata
And here's what I think why Onee wanted to kill Satoko and possibly Imouto
We know in Ep7, the stair event, Mion(Onee) said Satoshi was demoned away because Satoko was cursed.
Well, if that "Mion" was Onee, I guess Onee LOVED Satoshi and blamed all the fault to Satoko.
And another assumption, what if Onee also had paranoia, just like K1 in Onikagushi?
If I am correct, then Onee would tried to kill all the people who was "involved" with the Satoshi incident(maybe tne decision to "demon away" Satoshi wasn't her idea)
Te village chief, of course, might be the first target; and Imouto could be the one who was with the chief; Satoko, definitely was this year's perfect victim according to Onee.
And about K1, he was Imouto's "lover",so...
If the OP of Ep5 is true, I can say Rika saw how Onee tortured Satoko and became crazy and killed herself.
The final question is: who killed Tomitake and Takano?
As I said before, Takano might not be dead, and Tomitake's outfit is more like someone from military instead a cameraman.
So it might be Tomitake was a investigator from the military and TAKANO KILLED HIM using some unknown method (she studied the "trandition" of Hinamizawa, so she might know how to kill a person in a "Hinamizawa" way) and finded a place to hide herself(maybe the doctor, or "director" knew because he is Takano's boss)
In fact, I don't think I could've come up with that theory without Sushi-Y mentioning the 'Onee' part. I suppose it's not needed for a viewer to come to that theory but for me it was the catalyst that set that train of thought moving for me.
So I'm sort of peeved now at why the anime creators didn't leave that line in.
DingoEnderZOE2
2006-05-25, 01:09
After reading that extremely confusing and long explanation I'm gonna try to sum it all up....So Shion is the older sister and Mion is the younger sister? Why would Shion calling out to her "Onee"(Big sister) outside her cage give you guys the idea that they both switched roles a long time ago? Wasn't it clear from the start that Mion was always the older one and Shion was the younger one? Why exactly are we assuming from that small detail that Mion is really Shion and Shion is really Mion?
For some reason I think someone might be reading into things a little too much.
USCPharmacist
2006-05-25, 01:39
The twins really mess with people's mind don't they? I doubt we'll be able to tell them apart for sure before the answer arcs, and I don't think we'll have all the answers even then.
From watching episode 5-8, I think I can make some educated guess, however.
Assumption:
Mion love K1 and is a good girl.
Shion may or may not love K1 and she is a fu_knut.
Going by this I think the first Mion we saw was the real Mion.
Reason: Mion was sad that K1 gave the doll to Rena, and the mofo also commented how Mion was too "manly" for dolls.
The Shion at Angel Mort the first time was Mion.
Reason: Why would Shion care a rat arse what K1 think? They should've never met, and I doubt listening to your sister about her dream guy will make you blush to stranger. Also Shion should've been working there for quite some time, why would she be embarrass with a dress she wore everyday? That Shion was just too familiar to K1 to be someone that even Rena the Sherlock Holmes has never noticed before. Her sad look as K1 left also struck me as more Mion like than Shion.
The Mion at school afterward should be Mion.
Too comical and nervous to be Shion. Also she was embarrass about being a waitress the other day to change the subject immediately and ran away.
Lunch box Shion is Mion.
Proven in the episode. But notice how she mentioned about K1 being the customer, Mion should not know that, but she did. It is possible that Shion told her about the incident but I think she sounded like as if she experience the event herself.
Back at school the Mion should be Mion.
No need to swap there :) Although I would like to mention why would Mion work at all? What the hell kind of Yakuza lord with supernatural power work in a store as a clerk or work as a waitress, shouldn't she be collecting "protection money" from stores? :D
The Shion at the Angel mort the second time should be the real Shion.
Reason: Well it was proven in the episode, but something buged me. The Shion here was a confident girl who seem to be able to rip a new one out of those goons even without the zombies...I meant villagers help, not the timid Shion we saw at the begining of the episode. She was also a good liar, a smooth talker and very manupulative. Very different from the stuttering fool at the begining of the episode.
Finally the Mion at the end of episode 5 should be Mion.
Also notice how the sad look on Mion's face match that sad "Shion"s face after K1 left Angel Mort the first time.
Anyway I am sleepy now, I will continue to make more guesses in other episodes after I rewatch them a couple time first.
After reading that extremely confusing and long explanation I'm gonna try to sum it all up....So Shion is the older sister and Mion is the younger sister? Why would Shion calling out to her "Onee"(Big sister) outside her cage give you guys the idea that they both switched roles a long time ago? Wasn't it clear from the start that Mion was always the older one and Shion was the younger one? Why exactly are we assuming from that small detail that Mion is really Shion and Shion is really Mion?
For some reason I think someone might be reading into things a little too much.
My theory goes that yes, Shion is the real older sister and Mion is the younger sister, and that the person inside the cage is Mion. So Mion is calling out to Shion, saying, 'Onee.' But of course, Mion's real name is Shion and Shion's real name is Mion, so their names are originally switched too.
I didn't come up with this theory just cause of that one comment; rather it was the catalyst for that train of thought.
I connected the 'onee' comment with the fact that Mion hardly seems the right choice for yakuza heiress, and going with the assumption that it was Mion (the imouto) in Shion disguise who led Keiichi into the warehouse.
DingoEnderZOE2
2006-05-25, 02:16
But is there any decisive proof to support that claim? Or is this nothing more than a theory?
With respect it is an interesting theory and as possible as it is I seriously think that's a little extreme. Would they really completely forget who they really are? However I do look forward to the rest of the episodes to see if your theory holds true.
Thewanderer
2006-05-25, 03:27
The twins really mess with people's mind don't they? I doubt we'll be able to tell them apart for sure before the answer arcs, and I don't think we'll have all the answers even then.
From watching episode 5-8, I think I can make some educated guess, however.
Assumption:
Mion love K1 and is a good girl.
Shion may or may not love K1 and she is a fu_knut.
Going by this I think the first Mion we saw was the real Mion.
Reason: Mion was sad that K1 gave the doll to Rena, and the mofo also commented how Mion was too "manly" for dolls.
The Shion at Angel Mort the first time was Mion.
Reason: Why would Shion care a rat arse what K1 think? They should've never met, and I doubt listening to your sister about her dream guy will make you blush to stranger. Also Shion should've been working there for quite some time, why would she be embarrass with a dress she wore everyday? That Shion was just too familiar to K1 to be someone that even Rena the Sherlock Holmes has never noticed before. Her sad look as K1 left also struck me as more Mion like than Shion.
The Mion at school afterward should be Mion.
Too comical and nervous to be Shion. Also she was embarrass about being a waitress the other day to change the subject immediately and ran away.
Lunch box Shion is Mion.
Proven in the episode. But notice how she mentioned about K1 being the customer, Mion should not know that, but she did. It is possible that Shion told her about the incident but I think she sounded like as if she experience the event herself.
Back at school the Mion should be Mion.
No need to swap there :) Although I would like to mention why would Mion work at all? What the hell kind of Yakuza lord with supernatural power work in a store as a clerk or work as a waitress, shouldn't she be collecting "protection money" from stores? :D
The Shion at the Angel mort the second time should be the real Shion.
Reason: Well it was proven in the episode, but something buged me. The Shion here was a confident girl who seem to be able to rip a new one out of those goons even without the zombies...I meant villagers help, not the timid Shion we saw at the begining of the episode. She was also a good liar, a smooth talker and very manupulative. Very different from the stuttering fool at the begining of the episode.
Finally the Mion at the end of episode 5 should be Mion.
Also notice how the sad look on Mion's face match that sad "Shion"s face after K1 left Angel Mort the first time.
Anyway I am sleepy now, I will continue to make more guesses in other episodes after I rewatch them a couple time first.
Well if that's true, then Shion didn't even meet K1 till the second Angel Mort part. I mean she recognized him easily and all...
But is there any decisive proof to support that claim? Or is this nothing more than a theory?
With respect it is an interesting theory and as possible as it is I seriously think that's a little extreme. Would they really completely forget who they really are? However I do look forward to the rest of the episodes to see if your theory holds true.
At this point, yes it's still a theory. And I don't believe they forgot who they really are...or at least, maybe they might've for a little bit as they live their roles over time.
Likewise, I really look forward to Meakaishi-hen.
But Satoko's chapter comes first for now. ;)
I suppose it's not needed for a viewer to come to that theory
Trust me, that was a critical clue. I can't comment on the correctness of your theory (even though I really want to), but any gamer who watches the anime knows that it's not even trying to provide the viewers with a solvable story: they're simply skipping out on too many things and focusing only on the suspense horror stuffs.
Make no mistake, even with the game, it's still all but impossible to predict the "truth" with 100% accuracy. If you had a theory that was anywhere *close* to the truth, then that's enough for a "pass".
Trust me, that was a critical clue. I can't comment on the correctness of your theory (even though I really want to), but any gamer who watches the anime knows that it's not even trying to provide the viewers with a solvable story: they're simply skipping out on too many things and focusing only on the suspense horror stuffs.
It's possible they might re-insert that clue in somewhere inside Meakaishi-hen (which I know nothing of right now). Maybe they're really trying to leave these question chapters as real question chapters.
Damn this show is confusing. Everyone here keeps making their own theory about who is who but what I'm wondering is what is the motive for all the killing? Why mass murder? Why kill your own sibling? The more I watch this show, the more confused I get =p
Eleutheria
2006-05-27, 01:27
Sigh... I still like my triplets theory. There's Mion, Shion, and .....oh I dunno, Prion (Plion), who has the mad cow disease and looks like a walking corpse. This explains everything.
I still haven't gotten to waitress Shion in Watanagashi-hen(game), and Satoko's anime story is going to air soon :/
The only thing that comes to mind about Sushi-Y's Onee clue is, why is Shion still calling Mion onee after all the torture? Why not anee, nee, or simply てめ～～？
Beyond the Shave
2006-05-27, 06:48
Well, there goes my "Shion is actually Mion's mother" theory (Mion wouldn't call her "sis" in her state in the cell). But I still think Shion is the older sibling.
I think Oishi is full of shit. Did he really find one of the Sonozakis in the well? Then how could one of them survive? If one died by jumping in the well and one died by jumping off the building, who stabbed Keiichi, and who finished him off?
In fact, I think he is working with at least Takano, and possibly with Shion and Tomitake. Did Takano (the nurse) affect Shion/Mion's way of thinking somehow? Especially when she didn't kill Keiichi in the cave? When she said "stay away from me if you see me again", does that mean there's something growing inside her head, or is it that she knows somebody is going to alter her mind?
I think the Sonozaki in the white robe was Shion. How did she know that all the villagers came to help her and Keiichi at the Angel Mort? But then again, how did she know that Keiichi gave Rena the doll? Do the twins tell each other everything? Was that Shion at the beginning of this arc? Did somebody else let Shion know?
Also, about Rika... Mion/Shion's clothes were bloody when she (Rika) killed herself. But they weren't when she, Keiichi and Rena went looking for her and Satoko. Did she go to see them afterwards?
And why were Shion/Mion's clothes bloody at the very end of this episode?
Way too many questions.
This episode was just "WTF!" all the way through, but its just what i wanted from a Higurashi anime, really good stuff.
It makes sense at the end about what happened, its just why/how it happened - and the fact that we didn't see the scene with Rika killing herself from the start of the chapter as got me wondering a lot more.
I knew what was going on with Shion all along.. damn you Higurashi fan book. ^^;
Nexted chapter looks really good..
Satoko's brother, Satoshi?
For some reason I expected more. Now I am even more confused than before watching the episode. :) I need to watch it a few times before I can come up with some good explanation for these events.
My main problem with this and also some other episodes is the ease with which Keiichi stays near people who he is convinced are mad killers. Let's face it - how many of you would go with Mion (or Shion) in that secret passage after she had admitted her guilt?
Now I am really convinced Shion is the evil sister. Shinova seems very interesting, something was definitely wrong in the relationship between Mion and Shion and Keiichi's perception of it. These dead people walking are really puzzling. But who is to say that Oishi did not lie in the end about Takano?
frostfury
2006-05-27, 09:09
Can I ask when exactly did Shion say "Onee" in the cell? Because I've watched the episode time and time again and I still haven't heard it o.O
Could someone give me like the exact time she says it in the Wind Sub?
Yeah, I couldn't hear it either.
So this means that....
Shion really did enter the warehouse. Mion was with her friends on the day of the festival. Shion really did confess to the village elder while she was held captive with the elder. Possibly everything post festival was Mion disguised as Shion, since Shion was without her clothes in the cell.
I felt sorry for Shion. Very little pity is being given to Mion.
Really! All this started because Mion got jealous that someone else received a doll and she didn't. Truly low. She has this persona of being a tomboy, packs a pistol and yet, gets upset when her feminine side is not recognized. Someone needs to give her a dose of reality. If she truly wants people to recognize her feminine side, she should have started acting more feminine from the start. She probably was jealous of her sister for being able to show her feminine side and living a normal life. She should have just dealt with the fact that her sister was prob going to be K1's girlfriend and moved on.
I'm not buying this 'I'm trapped into this, pity me." stuff that was being portrayed. A part of her must have liked it for the demon to manifest and take control. She was a weak person in the end imo.
What was with K1?
If someone is trying to kill you and gives you a warning not come near them, the last thing you do is go outside to meet them (unless it's with a baseball bat to end their misery.:D ). What an idiot!
The doll incident would have made him look even more of an idiot and definitely should have been left out imo.
So, the prologue of this chapter did not get fully animated. Does that mean that it will be in the next chapter?
SvenTheSweeper
2006-05-27, 10:23
Can I ask when exactly did Shion say "Onee" in the cell? Because I've watched the episode time and time again and I still haven't heard it o.O
Could someone give me like the exact time she says it in the Wind Sub?
Yeah, I couldn't hear it either.
Sushi-Y mentioned that is was in the computer game, but they left it out of the anime. So you weren't missing any dialogue.
See below and click the spoiler tab for details on the "Onee" clue.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=568585&postcount=5
Oh my God!!! Mion is so evil!!!! :D
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/354/bscap0840fy.th.jpg (http://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bscap0840fy.jpg)
I give this Episode a perfect 10, just great :D
*waits for some animated gifs* :heh:
Now I havn't rewatched the episodes to confirm this but did anyone notice this with Oishi san
Quite often after K1 starts seeing strange things he has been close to Oishi san smoking. He smokes in the car in the first arc and smokes in the hospital room in the second right before the zombie thing.
Since it seems some sort some sort of psycopharmaca is used in this series is it possible that Oishi is subjecting K1 to this through his smokes, if K1 has latent schizofrenia maybe it would be enough to serve as a trigger?
Of course speaking against this would be that Oishi would probably recieve a much larger dose, it is of course also possible that he is just a heavy smoker who can't control his habit.
Also, although Rena seems like such a nice girl in this part, could it be that she seems to have such amazing deduction because she is in on the whole thing and given information by someone.
SvenTheSweeper
2006-05-27, 12:01
Ackk!!, another epiode to feed the post-show Sister Swapping Speculation Syndrome.:twitch: My eyes glazed over trying to read the different hypothesis up to episode 8.:eyespin: :confused: .
Well, I guess I'm a machoist:bow:http://www.blueblood.net/boards/images/smilies2/Whipping_Emoticon.gif , for reading it. :p
Show comments and questions(with screenshots borrowed from Sushi-Y, thanks)-
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The confession scene was too short for my tastes. It didn't have the dramatic suspense I was hoping for. Mion (demon mode) confessed so willingly and easily to Rena and Keiichi.
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)ht tp://img389.imageshack.us/img389/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
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Yeah Rena!! For standing by and supporting Keiichi.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)ht tp://img224.imageshack.us/img224/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)
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Yukino Satsuki did a great voice acting job in the Sonozaki torture chamber/prison scene as Mion and Shion.
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/212/124501249112513124021236812425.th.jpg (http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124501249112513124021236812425.jpg)ht tp://img362.imageshack.us/img362/6062/315320835441dktv704x396divx622.th.jpg (http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=315320835441dktv704x396divx622.jpg)
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The show raised a couple of questions:
1-Was Keiichi delusional or not? If all the bodies were in the welll, who was it that attacked Keiichi in the torture chamber, then stabbed him later on, and imprisoned Shion in the chamber?
One thing that is more certain to me, is that Shion was a victim in the Watanagashi arc. I also believe that after the festival in epsiode 5 we don't see the real Shion until the chamber scene in episode 8.
2-Why would Mion want to harm Rika? I rewatched episode 6-8, and I still couldn't get clear reason.
3-Why does Mion(demon-possessed or not) or Oyashiro need to kill people who either broke into the ritual storehouse or otherwise know about it? What does it ultimately accomplish in the modern world?
The only thing I learned is, Don't borrow soy sauce from your "friend".;)
SpaceDrake
2006-05-27, 12:06
A point of order question if I may.
Did Rena die off-camera in this episode? We don't really see her after Kei is taken to the hospital for the first time, and "Kei's Attacker" in the knife-doll-stabby scene says "I've killed them all." I'm guessing this is talking about the club, but Rena isn't mentioned afterwards, alive or dead. Does the game mention this at all or are we simply supposed to assume she's alive?
Cogwheim
2006-05-27, 12:45
I noticed something about Shion's apartment...
When Oishi and Kuma are covering up Shion's corpse after she jumped out of the window of her apartment, a bedroom as well as a kitchen are displayed. At the end of episode 6, when Shion is supposedly talking on the phone to K1 about the murders of Tomitake and Takano and warning him that the both of them are in danger, she is shown sitting on her bed--there is no picture of a city skyline hanging above her bed in Episode 6, but in Episode 8 after her corpse is found, a skewed picture of a city skyline is hanging above her bed.
Are these perhaps different bedrooms? Furthermore, Kuma says "We'll investigate this as both a suicide and a murder." Yet, the only corpse we see is Shion's, right? "Both a suicide and a murder" implies that two deaths had taken place that night, and yet, K1 didn't bite the dust. So...who was the other person that died?
FubaredByAnime
2006-05-27, 12:54
A point of order question if I may.
Did Rena die off-camera in this episode? We don't really see her after Kei is taken to the hospital for the first time, and "Kei's Attacker" in the knife-doll-stabby scene says "I've killed them all." I'm guessing this is talking about the club, but Rena isn't mentioned afterwards, alive or dead. Does the game mention this at all or are we simply supposed to assume she's alive?
I believe we are supposed to be left with the impression that Rena "survived" the ordeal, just like Satoko and Rika survived the previous story arc. In terms of the statement "I've killed them all", I think it refers to those who were responsible for angering Oyashiro-sama. Can't speak for the game though.
SvenTheSweeper
2006-05-27, 13:47
Furthermore, Kuma says "We'll investigate this as both a suicide and a murder." Yet, the only corpse we see is Shion's, right? "Both a suicide and a murder" implies that two deaths had taken place that night, and yet, K1 didn't bite the dust. So...who was the other person that died?
He was referring to only one death, Shion's. Which will be investigated as a both a murder and a suicide, because they don't know which is the primary motive for her death.
Deku Kirby
2006-05-27, 14:47
Maybe Shion and Mion switched a long time ago, because Mion didn't want the burden of being the heir. So Shion(acting as Mion) has the tattoo, but Mion(acting as Shion) is the real heir.
But I don't know what this would change.
aliensporebomb
2006-05-27, 14:53
Wow, with this episode I don't know what to think
but one of my suspicions was indeed correct.
Is it mental illness, split personality?
OR:
Supernatural possession of at least one major
character, the demon wearing Mion's (or is it
Shion?) body like an average human would
wear a suit of clothes.
It seems there is a time when the demon
allows Mion some measure of control over
her own body (hence she wasn't able to
"hammer" his fingers despite apparently
wanting to). But not always ("up until
now I've been trying my hardest....")
WHAM.
What now for the demon if Mion and Shion
are both dead? No more Sonozaki family to
rule over the town. What now?
Demon = no actual body but apparently
enamored of killing and torture for its
own amusement. Uses bodies of various
humans to do its bidding.
Supernatural malevolent being who
apparently has been feeding off of this
town and its people for centuries.
Great. Not.
Torture devices for enforcing strict laws in
a particular town. Questionable. I suspect
some being/persons or both were really
enjoying their little rituals. Lots of blood lust
whether some were half-human/half-demon
or not.
Is it REALLY Mion or is it in fact Shion in a
demon-enforced (or mental illness) sisterly
role reversal? A third sister? The one that
appeared at the end some kind of apparition
with the ability to control solid objects?
We don't know.
And in the end, was that a hallucination from
Oishi's smoke or was it really her - well, she
used one nail with the hammer and since he
was in a bed and not strapped down he
theoretically could have leaped out of the
way despite being rather painful.
What a freaking mindblower this series is.
So, now the next one. Mindblowing all the way around.
It almost appears that the first four:
Favored some kind of organized ring of killers using drugs.
And the next four:
Seemed to favor the supernatural possession plot.
Will the next:
Favor the mental illness tact?
Who knows but I can't wait!
Midrange
2006-05-27, 16:07
Now I havn't rewatched the episodes to confirm this but did anyone notice this with Oishi san
Quite often after K1 starts seeing strange things he has been close to Oishi san smoking. He smokes in the car in the first arc and smokes in the hospital room in the second right before the zombie thing.
Since it seems some sort some sort of psycopharmaca is used in this series is it possible that Oishi is subjecting K1 to this through his smokes, if K1 has latent schizofrenia maybe it would be enough to serve as a trigger?
Of course speaking against this would be that Oishi would probably recieve a much larger dose, it is of course also possible that he is just a heavy smoker who can't control his habit.
I hadn't thought about that, but you got me thinking--
if K1 and Shion went hallucinogenic self-mutilation crazy after Mion's supposed death, what did they have in common inside the cave before all the madness went down?
Mion
Blood, lots of blood
So perhaps whatever Mion had was transmissible through wounds?
I think that any further Mion after that incident was some hallucination or something supernatural: she's a whole lot less reasonable than she was when she was alive.
With Watanagashi’s doll story I’m starting to believe Rena wanted to remind Keichi his promise about helping her in taking out KFC-dude when she was walking with machete. Also it is interesting she was afraid in first arc that she is going to be next one who will be “demoned away”, yet in second arc she assured Keichi she definitely won’t be gone.
Also two things from opening - Mion and Shion hold each other's finger in "promise gesture". Also the one who goes "ogre mode" is Shion there.
Wouldn't it be that the one who have gone into warehouse was in fact Mion, but she was also the one responsible for murders. (She said she heard something there, she said it was really loud. Wouldn't it be a trigger for her "second" personality's awakening. We don't know almost anything about her past, but probably she was forced somehow to perform most unthinkable acts from since she started to be a teenager, something like that would almost surely result in mental disease, like split personality. May it be she was used as a tool needed to perform those rituals, because people believed it must be done by Sonozaki's heir? (after ogre awakened for good her grudge against Shion about "incident" and her jelousy enlarged into white burning hate?) Rika also said a thing about cats and dogs. She called both Shion and Mion cats, I think because they both in fact are in similar situation. Most probably there are others who pull strings. There is so-called doctor and men in green who we didn’t see in this episode. Not to mention a thing with Takano. It looks like everything is running around dam accident and Satoshi, so I guess we will know something closer to the truth at best after Satoko's arc
Scribble
2006-05-27, 17:17
Small comment:
Wouldn't this be "K2" now, not K1? I thought K1 referred to the first arc's Keichi.
Chibi Nasu
2006-05-27, 17:20
I believe it's K1 because K="kei" and 1="ichi", hence K1="Keiichi."
Hmm... powerful episode, though I wish it could have been longer so that we could get a little bit more information from it. Needless to say, I'm utterly confused at the moment, and shall refrain from coming up with any theories of my own until I watch it again (even though, after watching the next arc, all theories I do come up with would possibly be void...)
Scribble
2006-05-27, 17:29
I believe it's K1 because K="kei" and 1="ichi", hence K1="Keiichi."
Oh, haha. Now you mention it...
My bad.
SpaceDrake
2006-05-27, 18:36
Heh, another question concerning the end of the episode.
Is it meant to be inferred that Kei dies somehow, or does he end up just mutilated? I'm guessing the one wish is that she let Kei live. The screen just cuts to red once the nail goes in, so it's super unclear if Kei (finally) dies or is just fingerless afterward. (I'm assuming the game goes into slightly more detail.)
I thought this was going to be the most conclusive arc until about one minute before the end of the episode when Oishi gave more explanations that just screwed everything up again. :heh: I'm so confused now. I really hope they will include the answer chapters at the end!
Keiichi is so stupid, why does he still believe in Mion?! Mion even warned him before. If Rena knows about Keiichi entering the storehouse, why wasn't Rena killed, too?
Keiichi reminds me a lot of Yuuji from Shakugan no Shana. :heh:
Beyond the Shave
2006-05-27, 19:46
The whole discussion of Oishi's cigarettes reminded me of something in the TIPS...
In the final tip of this arc, Oishi hands the cigarettes over to some woman in the mahjong club.
Nothing is revealed about this woman, aside from the fact that she's old and that she owns the mahjong club. The only old woman would be... The leader of the Sonozaki family? It would also make sense since she owns the club, and the Sonozakis own most of the businesses in Hinamizawa.
the end of chapter...that makes it 2 now. so the murderer this time was a "demon" because oishi said that mion also died on the well. oh! and i feel sorry for shion though. looks like she was physically and mentally tortured. and i got to admit, keiichi was hit by a rock, stunned by a taser (although im sure that's not deadly) and then survived being stabbed. i wonder if he also did survived the nail/hammer combination thing
Guardian Enzo
2006-05-27, 20:30
Ok, I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here... Let me say first, I've read as many of the TIPS and faq's and various boards as I dare, not wanting to spoil things too much. I've never played the game and have no knowledge of this premise before the anime. And I respect it - it's extremely well-made - ridiculously smart, incredibly creepy, and fascinating. 'nuff said. BUT...
Am I missing something, at some level? I mean - what this appears to boil down to is watching likeable young characters, who get four episodes to endear themselves to you, die horribly in various different scenarios. From a purely calculating prespective, sure, I could see where this is interesting, and trying to figure out the various mysteries has appeal. But doesn't watching basically decent kids get tortured and hacked to bits over and over - and knowing it's coming every time - sink to the level of masochism? I mean - I just don't enjoy that. I appreciate all the wonderful elements that go into the mix, but in the end, where is the pleasure in watching it happen?
Like I said, maybe I'm missing something here. I'm certainly no prude when it comes to violence. What it boils down to, for me, is finding a reason to convince myself to keep watching...
FubaredByAnime
2006-05-27, 21:09
Like I said, maybe I'm missing something here. I'm certainly no prude when it comes to violence. Wha it boils down to, for me, is finding a reason to convince myself to keep watching...
Keep in mind your watching a mystery where we're the detectives. At this point, we're only at the halfway mark of watching this mystery unravel. The next 2 arcs will probably play out in the same fashion as a teen slasher film like the past 2 arcs. Supposedly the arc after the 4th story will provide answers to wants going on. If that's something you don't want to invest your time to watch, maybe it's time to stop and/or just read the blogs that cover this anime. Hopefully this answers your question.
Guardian Enzo
2006-05-27, 21:19
Well, it does and it doesn't. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else is feeling this same conflict I'm feeling. Yes, it would make a difference knowing that there was a payoff at the end that justified what went before - that this wasn't just random horror for the purpose of intellectual masturbation. But even if there is, am I the only one wondering if it's worth the trip?
Take K1 for example. A perfectly normal teenaged male - basically decent, acts stupidly from time to time (ep 8 comes to mind), doesn't have much in the way of social skills. There's no poetic justice in seeing him die repeatedly in horrible ways - in no sense does he "have it coming". And the fact that the series is so well-written actually makes it worse - if these weren't believable characters, there wouldn't be the same emotional impact. But the tone of the series towards K1 and his agonies seems almost voyeuristic to me - almost gleeful, and probably gratuitous.
I took the idea of assuming each time we see any green haired girl acting with true kindness towards Keiichi, or acting embarrassed/flustered/guilty that's *not* the heir and that each time we see a green haired girl acting cruel, mean, or negative somehow that is the true Sonozaki heir.
After rewatching the Watanagashi arc assuming that the Mion in the beginning is NOT the heir and that we're introduced to Shion for the first time in the motorcyle gang scene outside Angel Mort and that she *is* real heir most of the storyline in this arc makes a lot more sense (though it's still way convoluted at points :)). Each time one of them repeats a question to K1 they're really trying to figure out what the other sibling was up to and how much they know or testing Keiichi.
For example: When everyone meets while setting up for the festival the Mion there tries to take Keiichi away from Tomitake/Takano/Shion but Shion brings up the murders and Keiichi gets drawn into the explanation. At this point someone had informed Shion about Mion liking Keiichi (Rena or who???) but the Mion here says she hates Shion even more now. If, at the first Angel Mort scene, the waitress says she and her sister talk all the time about Keiichi those 2 statements conflict so I believe this was Mion/NOT heir dressed up as the waitress trying to cover up how she knows who Keiichi is. Going into the storeroom in ep5 that has to be Mion(NOT heir, true Shion, whatever) as she doesn't seem to know the gory details of Watanagashi and she seems nervous once inside, standing behind Keiichi while Takano explains the history of the festival and other reasons below. Takano says that Shion is understanding and is the reason she confied in her...Which "Shion" is it, the real heir, or not heir in Shion's clothes? I think it's the real heir and not the person in the storeroom with Keiichi but that doesn't quite fit with...
The Mion that shows up with the group later after Rika's performance is the true heir in disguise as Mion. She somehow already knows that Keiichi was in the storehouse and my only guess at this point is that Takano or Tomitake somehow told her and that they were all in on some kind of pact to get either Mion/NOT heir and/or Keiichi to wander into the storehouse to pull a demoned away act on them. It seems reasonable that the true heir is jealous of her younger sister. If the lock was recently changed and Rika's in charge of that she would have to be involved somehow as well.
The first phone call in ep 6 where Shion is on a bed is certainly a different room than the apartment where "Shion" dies at the end of ep8. It makes sense that the person on the phone was Mion/not heir in Shion's clothes.
The second phone call is the heir...though showing a glimpse of a bloody Rika-chan is pretty interesting. The 3rd call at the end of ep7 where Keiichi calls her out on confessing to the village chief is the heir/crazy one we see throughout ep8.
In ep8 when Rena and Keiichi go to the Sonozaki household it makes sense that Rena knows where to go since she's been to Mion's house before but it's interesting that the torture chamber is on the main grounds while "Shion" supposedly lives in that apartment elsewhere. You'd think with all the torturing she does she'd live closer or that Rena would have seen her before.
When Rena asks about how Mi-chan saved one by her own will the heir responds by saying "Who knows? I wonder why I didn't kill them." Is this referring to Tomitake/Takano, a translation error or? Why does Rena shush Keiichi while the heir/Mion is confessing to the murders?
While taking Keiichi down into the torture chambers she talks to Keiichi about how he saw (*not* we saw) the various torture devices in the festival storehouse. This furthers the idea that Mion/not heir was dressed as Shion taking Keiichi away from Rika's performance in ep5 and Mion/heir covered up Keiichi's slip when telling Rika-chan he saw her whole performance.
I definitely agree with everyone on the true heir switching places with Mion locked in the cell and tossing the not heir's body into the well after she shocked Keiichi. However, what I'm not getting is that Oishi never mentions whether one had a dragon tattoo on her back. If Mion was found in the well by the police and Shion was tossed or jumped out of her apartment, it's either the same corpse and the true heir is out there or Oishi isn't telling Keiichi everything (maybe he thinks it's irrelevant?).
Is that the taser/shock thing in "Mion's" hand while Rika-chan kills herself? Are we all pretty sure this took place at the Sonozaki house the night Rika and Satoko went missing after "Mion" helped Rena and Keiichi search the house in ep7?
Who wants to be that can Rika-chan is holding isn't spam?
What a great episode...
FubaredByAnime
2006-05-27, 21:42
Well, it does and it doesn't. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else is feeling this same conflict I'm feeling. Yes, it would make a difference knowing that there was a payoff at the end that justified what went before - that this wasn't just random horror for the purpose of intellectual masturbation. But even if there is, am I the only one wondering if it's worth the trip?
Take K1 for example. A perfectly normal teenaged male - basically decent, acts stupidly from time to time (ep 8 comes to mind), doesn't have much in the way of social skills. There's no poetic justice in seeing him die repeatedly in horrible ways - in no sense does he "have it coming". And the fact that the series is so well-written actually makes it worse - if these weren't believable characters, there wouldn't be the same emotional impact. But the tone of the series towards K1 and his agonies seems almost voyeuristic to me - almost gleeful, and probably gratuitous.
Ok, now I know what you're saying. In a nutshell, is there a point where we'll see some positive light at the end of this tunnel of horror for out characters? Hmmmm ... how should I put it? That's a tough one. I don't know everything like the game players like KJ and Sushi do, so I should let them try to persuade you if they can as they probably have way more insight into what will happen then I do. But as someone who does watch, I do hope that there will be an story where everyone lives happily ever after.
As is, the show will end with the 6th arc, which answers some questions, but will not provide all the answers. From this standpoint, I can only assume that the ending is probably going to be the equivalent as what we're seeing now until the end of the show. The 8th arc has not been released yet, so who knows what's going to happen there.
[Edited]
I just wanted to mention that KJ was nice enough to open arc speculation threads for Watanagashi and the first one (can't remember). Maybe we should start moving our speculation and theories over there.
Take K1 for example. A perfectly normal teenaged male - basically decent, acts stupidly from time to time (ep 8 comes to mind), doesn't have much in the way of social skills. There's no poetic justice in seeing him die repeatedly in horrible ways - in no sense does he "have it coming". And the fact that the series is so well-written actually makes it worse - if these weren't believable characters, there wouldn't be the same emotional impact. But the tone of the series towards K1 and his agonies seems almost voyeuristic to me - almost gleeful, and probably gratuitous.
This series is probably the most brutal anime I've seen...previously I would have said Elfen Lied had that title. For me so far the most interesting part of this series is the depth of the characters and storyline. It goes so far beyond almost all other shows I've seen and every bit of info we learn adds more and more questions. Going back and rewatching the previous eps to see how the meaning of events can drastically change is something that doesn't make sense in any other anime (as far as I know).
The thing is I don't think K1 is a normal guy...or, rather finding out who *is* normal in this series if anyone is part of the draw of it. How normal can Keiichi be if in the first arc he claws his throat out himself after becoming extremely paranoid? Who's funeral did he attend and why do we never really see his parents?
None of this excuses extreme violence so like other's have said it's certainly up to you whether to continue watching. If nothing else this series is certainly a huge departure from most formulaic anime out there today. Perhaps comparing this series to other Asian horror movies where there's less overt violence and more psychological/traumatic horror (think A Tale of Two Sisters) and contrasting with american horror would explain it a bit better. Of the Asian horror films I've seen the crux of the plot is usually some extreme emotional trauma which imho has a way stronger impact than any slasher/bloody violence.
I believe it's K1 because K="kei" and 1="ichi", hence K1="Keiichi."
Hmm... powerful episode, though I wish it could have been longer so that we could get a little bit more information from it. Needless to say, I'm utterly confused at the moment, and shall refrain from coming up with any theories of my own until I watch it again (even though, after watching the next arc, all theories I do come up with would possibly be void...)
This has been bugging me a bit. "K1" is how Morisato Keiichi from Ah Megami-sama abbreviates his name. However, Maebara Keiichi from Higurashi no Naku Koroni never writes his own name like that. Moreso, he prefers to go by his nickname "Kei" (as how Mion calls him with the suffix -chan, and how I prefer to write his name in the TIPS).
Heh, another question concerning the end of the episode.
Is it meant to be inferred that Kei dies somehow, or does he end up just mutilated? I'm guessing the one wish is that she let Kei live. The screen just cuts to red once the nail goes in, so it's super unclear if Kei (finally) dies or is just fingerless afterward. (I'm assuming the game goes into slightly more detail.)
Nope. The game ended just like it did in the anime. Besides, Oishi-san already spilled the fact that both Mion and Shion are already dead. How would ______ be there hiding underneath the hospital bed? That itself opens up a new possibility: was Kei state of mind normal at that scene? Adding Oishi-san chilling quote of "dead walking a lot" makes this even more suspenseful as well.
Well, it does and it doesn't. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else is feeling this same conflict I'm feeling. Yes, it would make a difference knowing that there was a payoff at the end that justified what went before - that this wasn't just random horror for the purpose of intellectual masturbation. But even if there is, am I the only one wondering if it's worth the trip?
Take K1 for example. A perfectly normal teenaged male - basically decent, acts stupidly from time to time (ep 8 comes to mind), doesn't have much in the way of social skills. There's no poetic justice in seeing him die repeatedly in horrible ways - in no sense does he "have it coming". And the fact that the series is so well-written actually makes it worse - if these weren't believable characters, there wouldn't be the same emotional impact. But the tone of the series towards K1 and his agonies seems almost voyeuristic to me - almost gleeful, and probably gratuitous.
I understand the conflict within you. Trust me, I had it within me when I first played the game as well. But rest assured, by the end of the next chapter (Tatarigoroshi-hen), you will be totally immersed keep watching this show for the exact reason that you are yearning for. Saying anything further will be tantamount as a spoiler, so I won't say anymore.
Guardian Enzo
2006-05-27, 22:02
Ok, now I know what you're saying. In a nutshell, is there a point where we'll see some positive light at the end of this tunnel of horror for out characters? Hmmmm ... how should I put it? That's a tough one. I don't know everything like the game players like KJ and Sushi do, so I should let them try to persuade you if they can as they probably have way more insight into what will happen then I do. But as someone who does watch, I do hope that there will be an story where everyone lives happily ever after.
As is, the show will end with the 6th arc, which answers some questions, but will not provide all the answers. From this standpoint, I can only assume that the ending is probably going to be the equivalent as what we're seeing now until the end of the show. The 8th arc has not been released yet, so who knows what's going to happen there.
[Edited]
I just wanted to mention that KJ was nice enough to open arc speculation threads for Watanagashi and the first one (can't remember). Maybe we should start moving our speculation and theories over there.
That pretty wells sums it up. I'm not looking for a happy ending, really - just some conclusion that shows me there was a point to all this, and that it wasn't just the anime version of a surgical dissection of an unanaesthetized subject.
Two good points were just made - one, we don't really know if K1 is "normal". And since he does seem to be at the center of each of these decidedly abnormal scenarios, it's a fair question. That would be a "point" I suppose, but it still doesn't answer the question of whether watching a basically nice (as far as we can tell) boy get filleted several times while we wait to find out is enjoyable.
Second point - this probably does bear comparison more with Asian horror films than any anime. "The Audition" springs to mind for me. And indeed, even if you admire those films, watching them is a sort of masochistic act. I guess it depends on what your tastes are...
Guardian Enzo
2006-05-27, 22:05
I understand the conflict within you. Trust me, I had it within me when I first played the game as well. But rest assured, by the end of the next chapter (Tatarigoroshi-hen), you will be totally immersed keep watching this show for the exact reason that you are yearning for. Saying anything further will be tant-amount as a spoiler, so I won't say anymore.
Well, thanks, and I hope you're right. Only one way to find out!
DingoEnderZOE2
2006-05-27, 22:40
[QUOTE=gaidin]
I took the idea of assuming each time we see any green haired girl acting with true kindness towards Keiichi, or acting embarrassed/flustered/guilty that's *not* the heir and that each time we see a green haired girl acting cruel, mean, or negative somehow that is the true Sonozaki heir.
After rewatching the Watanagashi arc assuming that the Mion in the beginning is NOT the heir and that we're introduced to Shion for the first time in the motorcyle gang scene outside Angel Mort and that she *is* real heir most of the storyline in this arc makes a lot more sense (though it's still way convoluted at points :)). Each time one of them repeats a question to K1 they're really trying to figure out what the other sibling was up to and how much they know or testing Keiichi.
For example: When everyone meets while setting up for the festival the Mion there tries to take Keiichi away from Tomitake/Takano/Shion but Shion brings up the murders and Keiichi gets drawn into the explanation. At this point someone had informed Shion about Mion liking Keiichi (Rena or who???) but the Mion here says she hates Shion even more now. If, at the first Angel Mort scene, the waitress says she and her sister talk all the time about Keiichi those 2 statements conflict so I believe this was Mion/NOT heir dressed up as the waitress trying to cover up how she knows who Keiichi is. Going into the storeroom in ep5 that has to be Mion(NOT heir, true Shion, whatever) as she doesn't seem to know the gory details of Watanagashi and she seems nervous once inside, standing behind Keiichi while Takano explains the history of the festival and other reasons below. Takano says that Shion is understanding and is the reason she confied in her...Which "Shion" is it, the real heir, or not heir in Shion's clothes? I think it's the real heir and not the person in the storeroom with Keiichi but that doesn't quite fit with...
The Mion that shows up with the group later after Rika's performance is the true heir in disguise as Mion. She somehow already knows that Keiichi was in the storehouse and my only guess at this point is that Takano or Tomitake somehow told her and that they were all in on some kind of pact to get either Mion/NOT heir and/or Keiichi to wander into the storehouse to pull a demoned away act on them. It seems reasonable that the true heir is jealous of her younger sister. If the lock was recently changed and Rika's in charge of that she would have to be involved somehow as well.
The first phone call in ep 6 where Shion is on a bed is certainly a different room than the apartment where "Shion" dies at the end of ep8. It makes sense that the person on the phone was Mion/not heir in Shion's clothes.
The second phone call is the heir...though showing a glimpse of a bloody Rika-chan is pretty interesting. The 3rd call at the end of ep7 where Keiichi calls her out on confessing to the village chief is the heir/crazy one we see throughout ep8.
In ep8 when Rena and Keiichi go to the Sonozaki household it makes sense that Rena knows where to go since she's been to Mion's house before but it's interesting that the torture chamber is on the main grounds while "Shion" supposedly lives in that apartment elsewhere. You'd think with all the torturing she does she'd live closer or that Rena would have seen her before.
When Rena asks about how Mi-chan saved one by her own will the heir responds by saying "Who knows? I wonder why I didn't kill them." Is this referring to Tomitake/Takano, a translation error or? Why does Rena shush Keiichi while the heir/Mion is confessing to the murders?
While taking Keiichi down into the torture chambers she talks to Keiichi about how he saw (*not* we saw) the various torture devices in the festival storehouse. This furthers the idea that Mion/not heir was dressed as Shion taking Keiichi away from Rika's performance in ep5 and Mion/heir covered up Keiichi's slip when telling Rika-chan he saw her whole performance.
I definitely agree with everyone on the true heir switching places with Mion locked in the cell and tossing the not heir's body into the well after she shocked Keiichi. However, what I'm not getting is that Oishi never mentions whether one had a dragon tattoo on her back. If Mion was found in the well by the police and Shion was tossed or jumped out of her apartment, it's either the same corpse and the true heir is out there or Oishi isn't telling Keiichi everything (maybe he thinks it's irrelevant?).
The only thing that bothers me about this theory is what reason could Shion possiably have for wanting to take Mions place during the festival? Plus what about the Demon within Mion who's been carrying the will of Oyashiro for the past 5 years? And didn't the very same demon announce that if Keichi had only given Mion the doll from the beginning the demon "everything might have been all right" and the demon probably would have stayed dormant within her for a bit longer? Mion obviously prefered for the demon to stay asleep because she cares about Keichi and she wouldn't want the demon to hurt him. Leading Keichi into the warehouse would ALSO put Keichi in danger of the demon so Mion would definitely not allow Keichi to go into the warehouse knowing the demon inside her would be out for his blood.
This makes it more likely that it was SHION who let her curiousity get the better of her and she wanted to drag Keichi with her. Therefore it makes sense that Shion the one who was the most likely suspect to have gone into the warehouse with Keichi would disappear, instead of Mion who KNOWS going in there with Keichi would be more of a reason for the Demon INSIDE OF HER to kill him.
FubaredByAnime
2006-05-27, 23:15
Well now that the sub is out and anyone can pretty much watch to find out what happens, let me be the first (and probably only) one to ask Sushi or KJ this question based off Sushi's commentary of the episode.
They took a 30-minutes confession scene and shortened it down to... 3 minutes? As a result, many interesting stories, including the history of the Sonozaki family, the recovery of Hinamizawa after WWII, and the canned human meat incident were all left out.
Can you give a quick lowdown of what it was we missed? It definitely sounds interesting. Especially the human meat incident. I love a sick thrill. Reminds me of the Wendy's "finger in the chili". They lost me as a customer for a few months.
I definitely can't answer all your questions since my thoughts are pretty wild guesses themselves but...to go along those lines:
I think both Shion and Mion like Keiichi. I think you're saying that you assume Shion (not heir) is the one Keiichi returns the bento box to and Mion (heir) is the one in robes at the Sonozaki house and in the torture chamber. Right before she opens the door to the torture rooms she says "I think I see why Mion liked you." In ep5 Shion says "I think I found out why sis likes Kei-chan." I guess you could argue that the demon is speaking through Mion's body in ep8 but to me it kind of seems to go back and forth between normal heir and crazy demon mode and at that point she's about as normal as she gets in this ep.
The title of the ep5 is Jealousy and I think that's either Mion being jealous of Rena because of the doll and/or the real heir being jealous of the not heir for being able to have something as normal as a crush on a guy. If it's the latter that could explain how the demon in her was awoken...if the former then that could explain how Mion's demon could wake up but then wouldn't that demon's jealousy be directed more at Rena than Keiichi?
The way clothing Mion acts normally seems to be less aware of the history of Hinamizawa as well as the real things going on behind the scenes of the Watanagashi festival (ie in the first arc she talks with Rena about someone being demoned away while Keiichi overhears). The townspeople reacted when Keiichi was threatened by the bikers but we know that was the real Shion and she acted much more assertive than Mion normally does.
I've been thinking that somehow Mion was dumb enough to go into the storehouse on Watanagashi and drag Keiichi in with her but the storehouse scene still completely doesn't add up if Takano-san was dead the day before. Who was hallucinating what that night? Was Tomitake there? Mion introduced both of them to Keiichi earlier though Tomitake knew who Keiichi was before they met. Not to mention Takano mentions confiding into Shion-chan about her "research". Rika had the locks changed to something simple and being the shrine maiden she should know what's stored in the storehouse...so everyone's guilty of making it easy for Keiichi to get in the shrine even though he had no clue he wanted to be in there. :) I swear he's got a gaggle of imaginary friends at will...
aliensporebomb
2006-05-27, 23:42
The whole discussion of Oishi's cigarettes reminded me of something in the TIPS...
In the final tip of this arc, Oishi hands the cigarettes over to some woman in the mahjong club.
Nothing is revealed about this woman, aside from the fact that she's old and that she owns the mahjong club. The only old woman would be... The leader of the Sonozaki family? It would also make sense since she owns the club, and the Sonozakis own most of the businesses in Hinamizawa.
Did anyone notice this?
The name of the cigarettes Oishi smokes happens to have a name that
might convince some that someone was being gassed or poisoned as we
have suspected.
http://pod.ath.cx/oishi.jpg
(screencap here at my website)
"GASTER"? If that isn't a red herring I don't know what is.
Blog on ep 8 (http://www.designchronicle.com/memento/archives/higurashinonaku_watanagashihen4.html)
Interesting. He seems to have come to the same "Shion is the real Sonozaki heir" theory without help from the "Onee" clue.
Did anyone notice this?
The name of the cigarettes Oishi smokes happens to have a name that
might convince some that someone was being gassed or poisoned as we
have suspected.
http://pod.ath.cx/oishi.jpg
(screencap here at my website)
"GASTER"? If that isn't a red herring I don't know what is.
That's a pun on CASTER, a well known brand of cigarettes in Japan. Interestingly, it's very similar to it's old design that it had back in the 80s.
LordAshram
2006-05-28, 01:31
I find it interesting one of the TIPS involves Oishi and an expert discusses ways of people becoming psychotic in a short amount of time, one of the causes of acute organic psychosis being head bludgeonings. Keiichi is hit on the head hard enough to be knocked out in the last episode of each chapter, and it's after these the really really crazy stuff starts happening, such as Keichii seeing something that makes him claw his throat out, as well as seeing a supposedly dead Mion/Shion twice.
On another note, I wonder why Rika brought a syringe with her to the Sonozaki's if all she was going for was soy sauce. Did she have some sort of foresight that there might be something wrong with Shion/Mion and she'd need to bring the syringe along? I have to question who gives a little girl a syringe to cure people with, as well.
I still believe "the manager" is the Doctor or somebody we haven't been introduced to yet... It wouldn't make sense for Rena and Mion to refer to this guy in a friendly way if he was Oishi, when Mion is established to HATE Oishi in ep 4, and a TIP says both of them are suspicious of Oishi's doings. I also am curious if the doctor gave Keiichi and "Shion" anything during their hospital visits to induce psychosis, if blunt head trauma wasn't the reason.
I try to develop theories, but every time I put the facts together, some things don't add up, and then I just have more questions... It'd also help to know if the story about Rena going crazy with a bat in her old school is true for both arcs, or was just part of a hallucination to begin with. Because if it is, then the cause tends to bend far more towards the supernatural or some sort of disease...
Matt Soulblade
2006-05-28, 01:46
10/10. For resolution issues.
Well, the only thing I can say, is, that either Mion was a zombie in the hospital and killed K1, or the idiot was allucinating.
BTW, Kei chan, you are an idiot.
Oh my God!!! Mion is so evil!!!! :D
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/354/bscap0840fy.th.jpg (http://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bscap0840fy.jpg)
I give this Episode a perfect 10, just great :D
*waits for some animated gifs* :heh:
How does this torture work exactly?
Shouldn't it be 14 nails in total? 3 in each finger, and 2 in the thumb. Does the location of the 15th nail hold some sort of clue to the story?
Also, I belive K1 could possibly survive this chapter. Remember he's in a hospital. After getting nailed, he shuld be screaming and making all kinds of noises. I'm sure a nurse or even possible Oishi, would hear it. K1 wouldn't die from 1 nail. Unless it's a supernatural answer, that's the only way I can see him dying in that situation.
SpaceDrake
2006-05-28, 02:23
I was wondering that myself, to be honest. I guessed that perhaps nail number fifteen means you get done "Jesus Style".
Oh, kj, again if I may: Rena, "I killed them all", stabstab off-camera kana kana?
Well now that the sub is out and anyone can pretty much watch to find out what happens, let me be the first (and probably only) one to ask Sushi or KJ this question based off Sushi's commentary of the episode.
Can you give a quick lowdown of what it was we missed? It definitely sounds interesting. Especially the human meat incident. I love a sick thrill. Reminds me of the Wendy's "finger in the chili". They lost me as a customer for a few months.
Not a quote on quote translation, but something close to it. All the following are said through Mion's words at that scene:
1. Hinamizawa was formerly known as Onigafuchi
2. The residents of Onigafuchi believed strongly that they inherited demons' blood and considered themselves to be more noble than others
3. However, with the opening of Japan by Commodore Matthew C. Perry, the times in Japan changed dramatically. With the new Meiji government's policy of doing away with the old and introducing newer ideas for rapid modernization, Onigafuchi's name was changed to Hinamizawa.
4. As Japan sped through modernization, it extended its military might in the name of "rich country, strong military." Spanning military victories in the Sino-Japanese War and the Russo-Japanese War, Japan entered into Pacific War (Pacific Front of WWII).
5*. By this time, Onigafuchi's reverence as a sacred village was in ruins. Villagers and residents from this area were frowned upon as hinin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan#Burakumin). Slanderous and unsubtantiated rumors about Onigafuchi being an isolated hamlet run by criminals and low-lives became the standard.
6*. People were discriminated for just being from Onigafuchi/Hinamizawa. Parents in the outlying areas told their children that residents of Hinamizawa have a disease. Kids who were touched by children of Hinamizawa cried and parents would actually put salt onto the area where he/she were touched.
7*. Adults would tell their children to never go to Hinamizawa as they would disappear as an Onikakushi, chopped up and eaten. They would tell unsubstantiated horror stories that residents of Hinamizawa lived through a famine in the past by eating human corpses.
8*. Such slanderous rumors did not end within childrens' world. Companies refused to hire people from Onigafuchi. Marriages were also broken; when it was found out that they married a person from Onigafuchi, the other family pressed for an immediate divorce.
[*5~8: These are typical of the burakumin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin) problems that Japan faced/faces since the Meiji Restoration. Residents of blacklisted buraku areas faced/faces huge discrimination, ranging from unemployment and marriage for just being from a certain area. As this is a very sensitive issue, it might be one of the reasons why this section was not explained in the anime]
9. Even under the propaganda slogans of "defending this nation as one" during the war, people in Hinamizawa were still discrimated, despite contributing its residents to the war effort.
10. However, the war finally ended in 1945. Men who went off to war returned, but many did not. However, a bright future for Hinamizawa seemed to lie ahead as General MacArthur's GHQ began to implement a new constitution to get rid of social discrimination once and for all (under the Meiji constitution, discrimination was illegal de jure). Residents of Hinamizawa began to work hard to bring back the rich nature of their beloved homeland.
11. One of the persons who contributed much to redeveloping Hinamizawa and amassing immense wealth was Mion's grandfather, Sonozaki Souhei.
12. Souhei was a food and supplies warehouse manager in Harbin during the war. When the end of the war was announced, Souhei schemes with his fellow members and superiors to smuggle canned military food rations back to Japan. Once back in Japan, he made a fortune selling the smuggled canned foods.
13. But Souhei did not use his new found wealth to his own good. He gave all the money that he amassed to his wife, the head of the Sonozaki family.
14. "Let us rebuild Hinamizawa. All the villagers are family. This fortune shall be shared amongst everyone." said Mion's grandmother, Sonozaki Oryou. This is the main reason why Hinamizawa exists as today and why the Sonozaki family has great influence in this area.
15. Using the money, the villagers helped rebuild the stagnating economy of Hinamizawa. Those that succeeded in turn helped others with their new found wealth. The strong bond of Hinamizawa's residents were reinforced through this process.
16. But by the mid 1950s, a change in the wind took place once again. Suspicions and rumors of the "human canned meat" began to spread. Souhei's former superior officer broke out the shocking news that the canned meat that he sold were in fact, human meat. Because of this, the unfounded discrimination of residents of Hinamizawa as demons that devour on human flesh started to flare again.
17. Why would human meat be in canned foods? Wasn't Souhei just a manager of the supplies warehouse? According to his former superior, Souhei was really just a meager private who exterminated mice and got rid of human corpses - a job fit for a lowly social status coming from his residential records.
18. Souhei would later be transferred as a corpse handler to a certain medical unit of the military. But that unit was a dark area of the military whose staff were doing things that were more inhumane that the unfounded rumors of Onigafuchi.
19. People would know this military unit as Unit 731 - the inhumane medical experimentations on human test subjects to create biological weapons. How obnoxious these military people are - they look down upon a resident of Onigafuchi/Hinamizawa just on baseless rumors and bottom-out-of-sight social economic status when they themselves are doing things that are far worse and horrific.
20. Souhei was transferred to a division within that unit where they were studying how to obtain much needed food for its militarymen. Japan was facing a huge problem during the war in providing its servicemen food in their frontlines. Malnutrition lead to loss of concentration and body mechanisms to fight off diseases. The morale to keep on fighting was also in danger. Hence, this division was given the order to find a way to obtain food in the battlefield. At first they studied stealing from locals and creating survival kits on plants and animals of that region. However, they soon lost sight and opened the door of the unthinkable.
21. What is the most readily available source of protein in the battlefield? Yes, you thought right - human corpses. Bodies of the enemy or our own servicemen, it didn't matter. They believed that its servicemen should eat whatever that is available to live out this war. Mion's grandfather would despise them. These men frowned upon him with baseless slanders of coming from a village that ate human corpses. Yet, these men were the ones that went further. "So what if they call me a corpse-eating demon? These men were the real demons. I don't feel subjugated on no matter what they say." said Mion's grandfather.
22. Several samples were made. But these scientists dared not to try out themselves. So they sent some to the front under the name of "alternative meat." The scientists stamped a logo "circle-alt" on these cans so they don't mistakenly eat them themselves. But the servicemen at the fronts loved it.
23. Did Souhei really sell canned foods that were made by human meat? No one knows precisely. Souhei himself denied it firmly to the end. But there were many who were jealous of Hinamizawa's road to rebuilding it's economy. They called us people who were living off of the wealth made by selling human corpses. Once again, Hinamizawa was back to where it was - being discriminated by everyone.
24. Kids of Hinamizawa were once again thrown stones by other children. That's when Mion' grandmother stepped in. She told the children, "if one child throws a stone at you, throw back with two. If two kids throw stones at you, get back at them with four. If eight kids come after you with sticks, you thwart them off with sixteen. If slandered by thirty, you yell back with sixty. And if a thousand tries to get us, we all come out as residents of Hinamizawa." Sonozaki Oryou stepped up as a leader of Hinamizawa.
25. Residents of Hinamizawa formed a strong bond to look after each other. If a child was bullied, they went to the bully's house. If an adult was discriminated, everyone, young and old, went out to voice their opinion. "Piss off a member of Hinamizawa, you're gonna get into deep shit." That was the thought process behind it. That is the exact reason why Kei was saved by the residents of Hinamizawa who ganged up on those three delinquents.
26 onward: as you saw in the anime
This explanation itselves are quite long (as well as touching several sensitive issues). Hence, the Mion's explanation of Hinamizawa's past was rather shortened to demons of Onigafuchi being bullied by others.
Pellissier
2006-05-28, 07:37
I've seen that the discussien has quite arisen from yesterday. Meanwhile, I've watched episode 8 three times already.
I won't hook up on any of the theories I've read so far, they all may be more or less believable, but I prefere to keep my brief observations as stand-alone, for now.
1)Rena and Keiichi decide to face Mion. Rena spots Oishi willing to use Keeichi as a bait.
I liked Rena's whole behaviour. Almost unbelievable if compared to the Rena we got to know in Onikakushi. Actually, I never knew if I had to completely trust in her or not (she may have come paired up with Mion later, after all).
2)Mion's story.
I've read they left out pieces of the story. Well, I don't consider it as a great fault since after all, time-wise, this episode was completely full.
As for the story, Mion is the heir. Or is that Shion? I totally give up on this matter. The twins are completely equal as for we see them drawn, and they also have the same voice. Every hint of who may be or who may not, would be pure speculation IMHO, with the hints we owe now.
I'll wait for the Meakashi-hen who should fill the holes.
I was surprised by the way, by the supernatural deviation the show took. I mean "I inherited the soul of a Oni", it's not something you expect to hear everyday. It was kind of sudden, made some sense but after all 4 episodes don't seem enough to cover a whole arc. (same was for Onikakushi, but here I felt the sensation of insufficiency as stronger).
3)"There are too many dead people walking, nowadays" (Oishi-san)
As for the twins, I'm ready to state that there would be a "third" one. Not a third twin, but simply an "evil version" of the heir. Being she Mion or Shion.
I mean, I don't believe the evil lives with the normal human being. Once the evil possesses the body of the victim, the human being is gone.
And the evil could as well act as a corpse. So that's how I'd explain how Mion (Shion?) was able to "kill (kill?) them all" despite her being dead before the happenings.
Same for Takano-san. If she was already dead that night in the storehouse, maybe that wasn't properly her, but an evil-being possessing her corpse.
So basically, even if someone is dead, it's still possible to see him/her around as the possessed form. Which clearly can't be spotted by normal peoples
- The scene of the doll would have been meaningful and impactful, I believe. I hope in Meakashi to see it.
- I was disappointed not to see Rika's suicide. I remember Mion's eyes: they were surprised when Rika stabbed herself. But then she started laughing hysterically (happily?). Best guess, I think Rika committed suicide because she recognized she had no way of save herself.
No clues about Satoko instead, may she rest in peace, as far as Watanagashi is concerned.
- "I killed them all" (Mion) , but I think Rena actually survived on this stage, as Rika and Satoko survived in Onikakushi.
All in all, the episode was a bit confusing. Still I feel there are not pieces of puzzles given away enough to make safe assumptions.
Still recognizing this episode's greatness, the disappointment for the missing Rika's suicide induce me to deduct one point from the total.
9/10
-------------------------------
And now can't wait for Tatarigoroshi! Satoko is quite of an unknown character for what we got to see 'till now. And very often the unknown characters result to be the best ones at the end. I'm very confident that it will be a memorable arc, less creepy but most depressing? I'm ready for it.
Go Satoko, it's your turn ^^
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/2193/satoko014re.gif Kawaii ^^
I wonder if they will keep the 4 episode for chapter formula. Also because with 8 chapters, 4x8=32 , not episodes enough (this if Matsuribayashi will have the actual chance to be included in the anime. Or if it will be added later in the time).
Amaranthine
2006-05-28, 08:19
*sigh* I had nice long post all typed out, but of course Firefox felt it necessary to crash before I could actually post it. :|
The gist of it was that I don't have a great deal of speculation to add, thanks to watching the episode after everybody else has already posted the things I was thinking. And I can't be bothered to type again what I did have to add, apart from just one thing. I don't think this has been mentioned, although I know the opposite of it has.
Basically, I was thinking that Oishi could smoke so much to protect himself from... something... rather than his cigarettes being a cause of hallucinations/paranoia/whatever themselves. Just what that thing is, or why he would know about it, well, I haven't really thought through yet. It's just a little thought that came to me suddenly.
Finally, I'm very suprised (now that I know about it) that the doll scene wasn't included. The pages of the manga which Suhi-Y posted had an impact on me... as is probably obvious. ↓
I guess this episode proves that people who where saying that Kei-chan was weak after he freak out on the phone where wrong, I mean how many would remain so calm when being about to get tortured to death.
After this ep I still believe its Mion in the prison and its Shion that took Mions place. The demon inside Shion would be a dual personality that call herself "Mion". The Mions that stab Kei-chan in the gut and attacks him in the hospital are both his hallucination I think, the slit eyes on them are back and all that. As people already said I think it was the big rock in the head that caused it.
Now what I really can't explain is the mystery about Takano, who where supposed to be dead when Kei-chan went in the storagehouse. I dont think Kei-chan was hallucinating Takano and I dont think Oishi lied about it.
Wouldn't it be that the one who have gone into warehouse was in fact Mion, but she was also the one responsible for murders. (She said she heard something there, she said it was really loud. Wouldn't it be a trigger for her "second" personality's awakening.
The one who entered the warehouse is probably Shion. She refers to Mion as "Onee" at the festival in episode 6 and at 13:46 ep. 6 in a conversation with K1 after they are out of the warehouse. So there was probably no switching by the twins on the day of the festival. Also, Sushi-Y's clue found here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=568585&postcount=5) noted earlier in this thread points to Shion being in the prison cell as well.
That would be kind of gross if...
the reason some of the bodies can't be found is that they were processed into canned meat.
I'm not a fan of the Mion/Shion switch noted in the blog earlier because it's way too complicated to pull off in an anime production, even though it would be the ultimate mind trip. A situational switch is more easier to execute. If Mion was partially possessed by the "demon" and expected to die, then some barriers would be removed and could explain the behavior noted in the blog imo. (Aren't white kimonos associated with death?) Besides, the "true" heir would need to be under supervision of the head of the family, so not being in the main compound would be rare imo.
Also, people talk all the time in a small town. It's not out of the ordinary for something like the cafe incident to spread to Mion.
It would also be expected that Shion is capable of becoming an "ogre" too, since they are exact copies DNA-wise. The environment could be a determining factor imo if you believe that Shion is not the "ogre" in this arc.
Ugh, this episode was great but spoils everything I hypothesized before hand!
Plus that last scene was scary as hell, and the whole text fade to red done by wind fansubs added more thrills to the moment. Gasp.
[QUOTE=orion]The one who entered the warehouse is probably Shion. She refers to Mion as "Onee" at the festival in episode 6 and at 13:46 ep. 6 in a conversation with K1 after they are out of the warehouse. So there was probably no switching by the twins on the day of the festival. Also, Sushi-Y's clue found here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=568585&postcount=5) noted earlier in this thread points to Shion being in the prison cell as well.
In conversation with Keichi she wanted to convince him that she really is a Shion, because she felt uneasy all the time around him as “tough Mion”, if that trip to warehouse awakened her "ogre" then it is also possible that Shion really was in that cell, that’s why she called her “Onee”.
I wonder if Mion's ogre was a case of split personality or maybe it was something similar to Keichi's madness from first arc. It was rather impossible for Mion to change places with Shion so I assume "ogre" died. Yet it was Shion who tried to kill Keichi. Shion commited suicide, but one of the twins appeared in his room - there is no chance that she would be there in any way, except supernatural. If we don't consider supernatural reasoning and if we don't take it as a kind of teaser from director then it is a sure thing Keichi also has lost his senses. Earlier it was mentioned that in game Rika has been found with syringe. Also in scene where Rika killed herself Mion/Shion looked like she was rather trying to defend herself, than being aggressive (wouldn't it be that something similar to Keichi’s madness from first arc happened to all of them?)
SvenTheSweeper
2006-05-28, 13:09
That would be kind of gross if...
the reason some of the bodies can't be found is that they were processed into canned meat.
Are you referring to below?
2) They took a 30-minutes confession scene and shortened it down to... 3 minutes? As a result, many interesting stories, including the history of the Sonozaki family, the recovery of Hinamizawa after WWII, and the canned human meat incident were all left out.
-------------------------------
http://smilies.neo101.nl/smilies/1403.gifhttp://smilies.neo101.nl/smilies/1403.gifhttp://smilies.neo101.nl/smilies/1403.gif :D
Is it me or are all the chapters have different stories in it that can stand by themselves and with just the same characters?
Wakuseino
2006-05-28, 16:06
Ok then~ I admit to having not read through the rest of this thread, and now I am going to make a couple hairbrained theories. Please excuse things...
Theory #1: Takano
Evidence: Takano was dead for 24 hours before her body was discovered? Despite this, she was quite alive so that she could break into the storeroom. Thus, we are forced to raise questions as to how that happened... the answer becomes fairly clear once one realizes that the corpse was burned beyond recognition, of course. The only way they managed to identify the body was through dental/medical records - something that as a nurse, she would theoretically have access to.
Conclusion: Takano faked her death.
Problems: There are a few notable problems here. First off, if all the missing people from this rash of murders has been discovered... Whose body was it that was in there if it wasn't Takano's? Another major problem is a question of why she would want to fake her death...
Theory #2: Mion/Shion/Threeon?
Ok, don't expect this theory to make a lot of sense, this is more my interpretation of what happened during the whole scene with Shion in the cell and afterwards. Now, it was pretty clear that Mion was intending to kill Shion last, but I figure there was a change of plans, as she saw she didn't have enough time to do anything. She tazered Keiichi primarily because she had another plan.
She knew she wouldn't have enough time to kill both Keiichi and Shion, so was forced to think fast. She tazered Keiichi, then while Keiichi was unconscious, killed Shion, and dumped her into the well (considering that she did the killing in that area, it's likely it has a direct link to the well - don't want to expose the guro overmuch, after all). Then, with Shion dead, she switched places, putting herself into the cell until the police arrived, and brought her to the hospital, believing her to be Shion.
The night of Keiichi's stabbing, she probably snuck out the window, then found Keiichi and stabbed him. Believing it was over, she then climbed herself back into her room, then jumped out the window killing herself. It was stated as they were pulling her corpse away, that death was probably instantanious.
With all this in mind, we're left with another question... Who then, was in Keiichi's room? It couldn't have been either Shion OR Mion, as they're both undoubtedly getting an autopsy done at the time being... Thus, we're left with a real problem... There are Three Mions running around, by the looks of things.
...Huh. That might actually explain why the twins weren't killed... Do the rules apply to triplets?
Problems: ...Of course, the major one winds up being "...a third Mion? That doesn't make any sense!". And I know it doesn't make any sense, that's why I've described this theory as not making any sense. I have no explanation for this third Mion, but if what Keiichi saw was real, there must be a third one, if only because the other two bodies are in police custody.
...Ah... the joys of insane hairbrained theories...
...WAIT! I HAVE IT!
The third "Mion" was actually probably a hallucination in retrospect. I just realized the position Keiichi and Mion (or Shion) was in... both were in the hospital, and broke down... The question is of course, why. I'm not subscribing to the demon theory, so I'm assuming that Mion was indeed the one in the hospital. Takano, being 'dead', was thus in the perfect position to target them in another way without them realizing: Both Mion and Keiichi were drugged shortly after being brought into the hospital. That means that Mion was getting drugged for a good 3 days before she died. Considering that there were three days in between, it's hard to believe that no clothes from home were brought in for "Shion", so she'd likely have some clothes left over... after 3 days of getting the wacky juice that may have been applied to Keiichi in two doses back in Chapter 1... she's certifiably nuts, and it wouldn't matter whether it's Mion or Shion... She probably went out to meet Keiichi with the best of intentions, really - ...and then the stuff kicked in again, and she went kinda crazy.
I believe it was stated in Chapter 1 that whatever this mysterious drug-like thing that affected Tomitake caused something similar to bipolarism... Likely that kicked in again, and she threw herself out of the window during one of the short suicidal moments.
As for what happened to Keiichi... just the beginnings of the hallucinations he would be having from hereon...
Deku Kirby
2006-05-28, 17:23
Ok then~ I admit to having not read through the rest of this thread, and now I am going to make a couple hairbrained theories. Please excuse things...
Theory #1: Takano
Evidence: Takano was dead for 24 hours before her body was discovered? Despite this, she was quite alive so that she could break into the storeroom. Thus, we are forced to raise questions as to how that happened... the answer becomes fairly clear once one realizes that the corpse was burned beyond recognition, of course. The only way they managed to identify the body was through dental/medical records - something that as a nurse, she would theoretically have access to.
Conclusion: Takano faked her death.
Problems: There are a few notable problems here. First off, if all the missing people from this rash of murders has been discovered... Whose body was it that was in there if it wasn't Takano's? Another major problem is a question of why she would want to fake her death...
Theory #2: Mion/Shion/Threeon?
Ok, don't expect this theory to make a lot of sense, this is more my interpretation of what happened during the whole scene with Shion in the cell and afterwards. Now, it was pretty clear that Mion was intending to kill Shion last, but I figure there was a change of plans, as she saw she didn't have enough time to do anything. She tazered Keiichi primarily because she had another plan.
She knew she wouldn't have enough time to kill both Keiichi and Shion, so was forced to think fast. She tazered Keiichi, then while Keiichi was unconscious, killed Shion, and dumped her into the well (considering that she did the killing in that area, it's likely it has a direct link to the well - don't want to expose the guro overmuch, after all). Then, with Shion dead, she switched places, putting herself into the cell until the police arrived, and brought her to the hospital, believing her to be Shion.
The night of Keiichi's stabbing, she probably snuck out the window, then found Keiichi and stabbed him. Believing it was over, she then climbed herself back into her room, then jumped out the window killing herself. It was stated as they were pulling her corpse away, that death was probably instantanious.
With all this in mind, we're left with another question... Who then, was in Keiichi's room? It couldn't have been either Shion OR Mion, as they're both undoubtedly getting an autopsy done at the time being... Thus, we're left with a real problem... There are Three Mions running around, by the looks of things.
...Huh. That might actually explain why the twins weren't killed... Do the rules apply to triplets?
Problems: ...Of course, the major one winds up being "...a third Mion? That doesn't make any sense!". And I know it doesn't make any sense, that's why I've described this theory as not making any sense. I have no explanation for this third Mion, but if what Keiichi saw was real, there must be a third one, if only because the other two bodies are in police custody.
...Ah... the joys of insane hairbrained theories...
...WAIT! I HAVE IT!
The third "Mion" was actually probably a hallucination in retrospect. I just realized the position Keiichi and Mion (or Shion) was in... both were in the hospital, and broke down... The question is of course, why. I'm not subscribing to the demon theory, so I'm assuming that Mion was indeed the one in the hospital. Takano, being 'dead', was thus in the perfect position to target them in another way without them realizing: Both Mion and Keiichi were drugged shortly after being brought into the hospital. That means that Mion was getting drugged for a good 3 days before she died. Considering that there were three days in between, it's hard to believe that no clothes from home were brought in for "Shion", so she'd likely have some clothes left over... after 3 days of getting the wacky juice that may have been applied to Keiichi in two doses back in Chapter 1... she's certifiably nuts, and it wouldn't matter whether it's Mion or Shion... She probably went out to meet Keiichi with the best of intentions, really - ...and then the stuff kicked in again, and she went kinda crazy.
I believe it was stated in Chapter 1 that whatever this mysterious drug-like thing that affected Tomitake caused something similar to bipolarism... Likely that kicked in again, and she threw herself out of the window during one of the short suicidal moments.
As for what happened to Keiichi... just the beginnings of the hallucinations he would be having from hereon...
*takes off glasses*
My god...I think we have a winner.
Are you referring to below?
2) They took a 30-minutes confession scene and shortened it down to... 3 minutes? As a result, many interesting stories, including the history of the Sonozaki family, the recovery of Hinamizawa after WWII, and the canned human meat incident were all left out.
http://smilies.neo101.nl/smilies/1403.gifhttp://smilies.neo101.nl/smilies/1403.gifhttp://smilies.neo101.nl/smilies/1403.gif :D
Yep. That would be the one.
I also agree with the Takano theory.
That was the only death that didn't fit the pattern in both chapters. She kills and burns a body double and switches dental records to cover her trail so that the "demon" and/or the "demon" helpers wouldn't hunt her. Pretty sick of her if you asked me.
So do we ever find out what mistake Rika made in her dance and why Rena got spared?
I finally got the prologue.
It took place in the Sonazaki kitchen after Rika went over to borrow some soy sauce and with a syringe to attempt to inject Mion. Whatever is in that syringe, they aren't injecting people with it early enough to have an effect.
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3585/snapshot200605281948186jh.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200605281948186jh.jpg) http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3117/snapshot200605281948232bo.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200605281948232bo.jpg) http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1672/snapshot200605281948394gf.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200605281948394gf.jpg)
Aww, fuck... they tortured her. But I'm having an tough time here placing things as it is, though I'd almost say she was forced just to watch her friends get tortured to death. Well, no bruises/blood on her from what we could see. ... could imagine, other.
2) The reason why Mion kept Shion alive was because she was saving her until the end. Mion wanted to kill her in a best, most painful way after forcing her to watch the death of all the other captives first.
Eat your heart out, Narutaru. :cool:
2) They took a 30-minutes confession scene and shortened it down to... 3 minutes? As a result, many interesting stories, including the history of the Sonozaki family, the recovery of Hinamizawa after WWII, and the canned human meat incident were all left out.
Jimmy Hoffa brand, I say. :heh:
Ok then~ I admit to having not read through the rest of this thread, and now I am going to make a couple hairbrained theories. Please excuse things...
Theory #1: Takano
Evidence: Takano was dead for 24 hours before her body was discovered? Despite this, she was quite alive so that she could break into the storeroom. Thus, we are forced to raise questions as to how that happened... the answer becomes fairly clear once one realizes that the corpse was burned beyond recognition, of course. The only way they managed to identify the body was through dental/medical records - something that as a nurse, she would theoretically have access to.
Conclusion: Takano faked her death.
Problems: There are a few notable problems here. First off, if all the missing people from this rash of murders has been discovered... Whose body was it that was in there if it wasn't Takano's? Another major problem is a question of why she would want to fake her death...
Theory #2: Mion/Shion/Threeon?
Ok, don't expect this theory to make a lot of sense, this is more my interpretation of what happened during the whole scene with Shion in the cell and afterwards. Now, it was pretty clear that Mion was intending to kill Shion last, but I figure there was a change of plans, as she saw she didn't have enough time to do anything. She tazered Keiichi primarily because she had another plan.
She knew she wouldn't have enough time to kill both Keiichi and Shion, so was forced to think fast. She tazered Keiichi, then while Keiichi was unconscious, killed Shion, and dumped her into the well (considering that she did the killing in that area, it's likely it has a direct link to the well - don't want to expose the guro overmuch, after all). Then, with Shion dead, she switched places, putting herself into the cell until the police arrived, and brought her to the hospital, believing her to be Shion.
The night of Keiichi's stabbing, she probably snuck out the window, then found Keiichi and stabbed him. Believing it was over, she then climbed herself back into her room, then jumped out the window killing herself. It was stated as they were pulling her corpse away, that death was probably instantanious.
With all this in mind, we're left with another question... Who then, was in Keiichi's room? It couldn't have been either Shion OR Mion, as they're both undoubtedly getting an autopsy done at the time being... Thus, we're left with a real problem... There are Three Mions running around, by the looks of things.
...Huh. That might actually explain why the twins weren't killed... Do the rules apply to triplets?
Problems: ...Of course, the major one winds up being "...a third Mion? That doesn't make any sense!". And I know it doesn't make any sense, that's why I've described this theory as not making any sense. I have no explanation for this third Mion, but if what Keiichi saw was real, there must be a third one, if only because the other two bodies are in police custody.
...Ah... the joys of insane hairbrained theories...
...WAIT! I HAVE IT!
The third "Mion" was actually probably a hallucination in retrospect. I just realized the position Keiichi and Mion (or Shion) was in... both were in the hospital, and broke down... The question is of course, why. I'm not subscribing to the demon theory, so I'm assuming that Mion was indeed the one in the hospital. Takano, being 'dead', was thus in the perfect position to target them in another way without them realizing: Both Mion and Keiichi were drugged shortly after being brought into the hospital. That means that Mion was getting drugged for a good 3 days before she died. Considering that there were three days in between, it's hard to believe that no clothes from home were brought in for "Shion", so she'd likely have some clothes left over... after 3 days of getting the wacky juice that may have been applied to Keiichi in two doses back in Chapter 1... she's certifiably nuts, and it wouldn't matter whether it's Mion or Shion... She probably went out to meet Keiichi with the best of intentions, really - ...and then the stuff kicked in again, and she went kinda crazy.
I believe it was stated in Chapter 1 that whatever this mysterious drug-like thing that affected Tomitake caused something similar to bipolarism... Likely that kicked in again, and she threw herself out of the window during one of the short suicidal moments.
As for what happened to Keiichi... just the beginnings of the hallucinations he would be having from hereon...
Some do assume that she did indeed jumped to her death. But, why was she alive later at the hospital? I would put it as an faked death as well. ...a la Romeo & Juliet, when drugs come to mind. Then to later awaken within mortuary of the hospital. Probably all later covered-up by the white coats.
Though, I'd suppose the creators are trying to point to another direction:
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7030/snapshot200605282223143yv.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200605282223143yv.jpg)
...with clean foot that be.
Clean foot? Theory for such an odd detail?
Not a quote on quote translation, but something close to it. All the following are said through Mion's words at that scene:
1. Hinamizawa was formerly known as Onigafuchi
2. The residents of Onigafuchi believed strongly that they inherited demons' blood and considered themselves to be more noble than others
3. However, with the opening of Japan by Commodore Matthew C. Perry, the times in Japan changed dramatically. With the new Meiji government's policy of doing away with the old and introducing newer ideas for rapid modernization, Onigafuchi's name was changed to Hinamizawa.
4. As Japan sped through modernization, it extended its military might in the name of "rich country, strong military." Spanning military victories in the Sino-Japanese War and the Russo-Japanese War, Japan entered into Pacific War (Pacific Front of WWII).
5*. By this time, Onigafuchi's reverence as a sacred village was in ruins. Villagers and residents from this area were frowned upon as hinin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan#Burakumin). Slanderous and unsubtantiated rumors about Onigafuchi being an isolated hamlet run by criminals and low-lives became the standard.
6*. People were discriminated for just being from Onigafuchi/Hinamizawa. Parents in the outlying areas told their children that residents of Hinamizawa have a disease. Kids who were touched by children of Hinamizawa cried and parents would actually put salt onto the area where he/she were touched.
7*. Adults would tell their children to never go to Hinamizawa as they would disappear as an Onikakushi, chopped up and eaten. They would tell unsubstantiated horror stories that residents of Hinamizawa lived through a famine in the past by eating human corpses.
8*. Such slanderous rumors did not end within childrens' world. Companies refused to hire people from Onigafuchi. Marriages were also broken; when it was found out that they married a person from Onigafuchi, the other family pressed for an immediate divorce.
[*5~8: These are typical of the burakumin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin) problems that Japan faced/faces since the Meiji Restoration. Residents of blacklisted buraku areas faced/faces huge discrimination, ranging from unemployment and marriage for just being from a certain area. As this is a very sensitive issue, it might be one of the reasons why this section was not explained in the anime]
9. Even under the propaganda slogans of "defending this nation as one" during the war, people in Hinamizawa were still discrimated, despite contributing its residents to the war effort.
10. However, the war finally ended in 1945. Men who went off to war returned, but many did not. However, a bright future for Hinamizawa seemed to lie ahead as General MacArthur's GHQ began to implement a new constitution to get rid of social discrimination once and for all (under the Meiji constitution, discrimination was illegal de jure). Residents of Hinamizawa began to work hard to bring back the rich nature of their beloved homeland.
11. One of the persons who contributed much to redeveloping Hinamizawa and amassing immense wealth was Mion's grandfather, Sonozaki Souhei.
12. Souhei was a food and supplies warehouse manager in Harbin during the war. When the end of the war was announced, Souhei schemes with his fellow members and superiors to smuggle canned military food rations back to Japan. Once back in Japan, he made a fortune selling the smuggled canned foods.
13. But Souhei did not use his new found wealth to his own good. He gave all the money that he amassed to his wife, the head of the Sonozaki family.
14. "Let us rebuild Hinamizawa. All the villagers are family. This fortune shall be shared amongst everyone." said Mion's grandmother, Sonozaki Oryou. This is the main reason why Hinamizawa exists as today and why the Sonozaki family has great influence in this area.
15. Using the money, the villagers helped rebuild the stagnating economy of Hinamizawa. Those that succeeded in turn helped others with their new found wealth. The strong bond of Hinamizawa's residents were reinforced through this process.
16. But by the mid 1950s, a change in the wind took place once again. Suspicions and rumors of the "human canned meat" began to spread. Souhei's former superior officer broke out the shocking news that the canned meat that he sold were in fact, human meat. Because of this, the unfounded discrimination of residents of Hinamizawa as demons that devour on human flesh started to flare again.
17. Why would human meat be in canned foods? Wasn't Souhei just a manager of the supplies warehouse? According to his former superior, Souhei was really just a meager private who exterminated mice and got rid of human corpses - a job fit for a lowly social status coming from his residential records.
18. Souhei would later be transferred as a corpse handler to a certain medical unit of the military. But that unit was a dark area of the military whose staff were doing things that were more inhumane that the unfounded rumors of Onigafuchi.
19. People would know this military unit as Unit 731 - the inhumane medical experimentations on human test subjects to create biological weapons. How obnoxious these military people are - they look down upon a resident of Onigafuchi/Hinamizawa just on baseless rumors and bottom-out-of-sight social economic status when they themselves are doing things that are far worse and horrific.
20. Souhei was transferred to a division within that unit where they were studying how to obtain much needed food for its militarymen. Japan was facing a huge problem during the war in providing its servicemen food in their frontlines. Malnutrition lead to loss of concentration and body mechanisms to fight off diseases. The morale to keep on fighting was also in danger. Hence, this division was given the order to find a way to obtain food in the battlefield. At first they studied stealing from locals and creating survival kits on plants and animals of that region. However, they soon lost sight and opened the door of the unthinkable.
21. What is the most readily available source of protein in the battlefield? Yes, you thought right - human corpses. Bodies of the enemy or our own servicemen, it didn't matter. They believed that its servicemen should eat whatever that is available to live out this war. Mion's grandfather would despise them. These men frowned upon him with baseless slanders of coming from a village that ate human corpses. Yet, these men were the ones that went further. "So what if they call me a corpse-eating demon? These men were the real demons. I don't feel subjugated on no matter what they say." said Mion's grandfather.
22. Several samples were made. But these scientists dared not to try out themselves. So they sent some to the front under the name of "alternative meat." The scientists stamped a logo "circle-alt" on these cans so they don't mistakenly eat them themselves. But the servicemen at the fronts loved it.
23. Did Souhei really sell canned foods that were made by human meat? No one knows precisely. Souhei himself denied it firmly to the end. But there were many who were jealous of Hinamizawa's road to rebuilding it's economy. They called us people who were living off of the wealth made by selling human corpses. Once again, Hinamizawa was back to where it was - being discriminated by everyone.
24. Kids of Hinamizawa were once again thrown stones by other children. That's when Mion' grandmother stepped in. She told the children, "if one child throws a stone at you, throw back with two. If two kids throw stones at you, get back at them with four. If eight kids come after you with sticks, you thwart them off with sixteen. If slandered by thirty, you yell back with sixty. And if a thousand tries to get us, we all come out as residents of Hinamizawa." Sonozaki Oryou stepped up as a leader of Hinamizawa.
25. Residents of Hinamizawa formed a strong bond to look after each other. If a child was bullied, they went to the bully's house. If an adult was discriminated, everyone, young and old, went out to voice their opinion. "Piss off a member of Hinamizawa, you're gonna get into deep shit." That was the thought process behind it. That is the exact reason why Kei was saved by the residents of Hinamizawa who ganged up on those three delinquents.
26 onward: as you saw in the anime
This explanation itselves are quite long (as well as touching several sensitive issues). Hence, the Mion's explanation of Hinamizawa's past was rather shortened to demons of Onigafuchi being bullied by others.
Wow, good job, that probably took you a while to type. :heh:
- I was disappointed not to see Rika's suicide. I remember Mion's eyes: they were surprised when Rika stabbed herself. But then she started laughing hysterically (happily?). Best guess, I think Rika committed suicide because she recognized she had no way of save herself.
No clues about Satoko instead, may she rest in peace, as far as Watanagashi is concerned.
You'll find out about both in Meakashi-hen. Rika's suicide scene was from there to begin with.
- "I killed them all" (Mion) , but I think Rena actually survived on this stage, as Rika and Satoko survived in Onikakushi.
Rena lived on in Watanagashi-hen (it was mentioned in an epilogue-ish debrief scene, I think). As for Rika and Satoko in Onikakushi-hen, their conditions are "unknown" since that chapter ended without any reference to them. (Well, the gamers who finished Minagoroshi-hen knows what happened to them though)
And now can't wait for Tatarigoroshi! Satoko is quite of an unknown character for what we got to see 'till now. And very often the unknown characters result to be the best ones at the end. I'm very confident that it will be a memorable arc, less creepy but most depressing? I'm ready for it.
My favorite chapter, my favorite character. ^^
Rather than calling it depressing, I'd describe it as being more "painful" to watch. Tatarigoroshi-hen is also the most confusing (complex?) chapter of them all. Watanagashi-hen's ending was confusing, but it's nothing compared to Tatarigoroshi-hen, which will have more twists and turns than a rollercoaster.
By the way, some preview pics for episode 9 from the official site:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/6390/0916ii.jpg http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7501/0924mk.jpg http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/1542/0938tp.jpg
According to the preview, it'll probably feature the initial events (Keiichi's cooking incident and the baseball competition), where we will learn more about Satoko and her ni-ni- (Satoko's way of calling her "oniichan" (big brother)), Satoshi.
I wonder if they will keep the 4 episode for chapter formula. Also because with 8 chapters, 4x8=32 , not episodes enough (this if Matsuribayashi will have the actual chance to be included in the anime. Or if it will be added later in the time).
As far as I know, the anime will only cover up to Tsumihoroboshi-hen (6th chapter). When this anime was being planned, Minagoroshi-hen wasn't even out yet (December 2005). And the final chapter, Matsuribayashi-hen, is still in production, due out by Comike 70 (August 2006).
If we take the list of chapters, and insert the anime episode numbers beside them, it'll probably look like this:
Higurashi no Naku Koroni (question arc)
Chapter 1: Onikakushi-hen (Episode 1 - 4)
Chapter 2: Watanagashi-hen (Episode 5 - 8)
Chapter 3: Tatarigoroshi-hen (Episode 9 - 12?)
Chapter 4: Himatsubushi-hen (Episode 13 - 16?)
Higurashi no Naku Koroni Kai (answer arc)
Chapter 5: Meakashi-hen (Episode 17 - 21?)
Chapter 6: Tsumihoroboshi-hen (Episode 21 - 26?)
Chapter 7: Minagoroshi-hen
Chapter 8: Matsuribayashi-hen
From a gamer's point of view, I'm not sure what it'll be like if the anime ended with Tsumihoroboshi. Especially because, in many ways, Minagoroshi-hen (7th chapter) was the chapter were we learn of the TRUE answers (Meakashi and Tsumihoroboshi provided answers to the specific events in the question chapters, but the larger, more fundamental questions remain)
Like I mentioned in another post somewhere else before, if they do skip out on the final TIP of Tsumihoroboshi-hen, "Demon's Script" (and since I don't see any TIP appearing in the anime, they probably will skip out on it ^^; ), which you obtain AFTER the ending of Tsumihoroboshi-hen, then Tsumihoroboshi-hen's ending would actually make a really nice ending for the anime too.
But it'd be kind of like a fake ending where nothing's really solved. Oh well, we'll see.
Clean foot? Theory for such an odd detail?
If truely jumped. Otherwise, dirty if walked out. ... Not that, one couldn't have had help. But thin. :eyebrow:
Guardian Enzo
2006-05-28, 23:58
This anime must be the all-time Animesuki leader in spoiler tags...
Freakman
2006-05-29, 01:10
*clears voice*
After getting approval from kj, here's a small TIP :
There's no third Sonozaki sister.
That much I'd like to make clear :)
Alot of people are missing something that seems sort of obvious to me. K1 had to have gone insane noone stabbed him or hammered a nail through his finger in the hospital. My reasoning is because why would the person who stabbed him say I killed everyone they're all dead if Rena is still alive and K1 didn't die. She would have finished him off if she really went there to kill him. Also the hammer through the finger thing it's not like she was hiding under the bed waiting for Oishi to leave.
Alot of people are missing something that seems sort of obvious to me. K1 had to have gone insane noone stabbed him or hammered a nail through his finger in the hospital. My reasoning is because why would the person who stabbed him say I killed everyone they're all dead if Rena is still alive and K1 didn't die. She would have finished him off if she really went there to kill him. Also the hammer through the finger thing it's not like she was hiding under the bed waiting for Oishi to leave.
By everyone I think Mion meant everyone who was involved in the whole thing somehow. I don't think Rena was among those involved, even if she did figure out a lot of things. I think you might be taking "Everyone" too literally. Remember, this is Higurashi.
As for K1 not getting stabbed..... then why would he be in the hospital? SOMEONE stabbed him. Whether that someone was Mion, or Oyashiro-sama, or something else remains to be seen.
Mion probably came back to finish the job. The end result, of course, is not shown. Again, she's probably NOT Mion, but something else.
I had been thinking that the cause of everything is entirely human and mundane, but ever since the end of Watanagashi, I'm pretty sure there's a supernatural element involved in there somewhere.
rogueblade
2006-05-29, 04:48
Is it just me, or is there a rather sizeable clue in the "Jail cell" scene, that people have glossed over?
Remember when Keiichi is talking to "Shion" in the jail cell, and "Mion" appears behind him? Don't you remember the way in which she appeared behind him? It was as if she teleported behind him - as far as i know, no human can do that. So it seems to me that this means one of two things -
1.)"Mion" is actually the demon disguised in human form.
OR
2.)This is all someone's "dream" / "hallucination", but whose is it? It can't be Keiichi's because he was looking at "Shion" the whole time. So that leaves it down to either "Shion" or "Mion".
Of course, it's possible that Shion imagined that it happened, given her extremely fragile state when Keiichi found her.
To clear a few things up:
1. Mion knocked Keiichi out with the taser in the original sound novel, not a rock like in the anime. So for those of you who's thinking Keiichi's delusional because he got bonked over the head, you can assume that's not the case (well, unless you have another reason to think he's delusional).
2.
Alot of people are missing something that seems sort of obvious to me. K1 had to have gone insane noone stabbed him or hammered a nail through his finger in the hospital. My reasoning is because why would the person who stabbed him say I killed everyone they're all dead if Rena is still alive and K1 didn't die. She would have finished him off if she really went there to kill him. Also the hammer through the finger thing it's not like she was hiding under the bed waiting for Oishi to leave.
To be more accurate, Mion didn't "kill everyone", she "killed everyone she wanted to kill".
3.
Is it just me, or is there a rather sizeable clue in the "Jail cell" scene, that people have glossed over?
Remember when Keiichi is talking to "Shion" in the jail cell, and "Mion" appears behind him? Don't you remember the way in which she appeared behind him? It was as if she teleported behind him - as far as i know, no human can do that. So it seems to me that this means one of two things -
1.)"Mion" is actually the demon disguised in human form.
OR
2.)This is all someone's "dream" / "hallucination", but whose is it? It can't be Keiichi's because he was looking at "Shion" the whole time. So that leaves it down to either "Shion" or "Mion".
Of course, it's possible that Shion imagined that it happened, given her extremely fragile state when Keiichi found her.
Unfortunately, no, that's just a special effect and is unrelated to the mystery.
One more thing about crazy Mion dillusion at the hospital, why is her head and face all bloody?
FubaredByAnime
2006-05-29, 09:38
Not a quote on quote translation, but something close to it. All the following are said through Mion's words at that scene:
1. Hinamizawa was formerly known as Onigafuchi
2. The residents of Onigafuchi believed strongly that they inherited demons' blood and considered themselves to be more noble than others
3. However, with the opening of Japan by Commodore Matthew C. Perry, the times in Japan changed dramatically. With the new Meiji government's policy of doing away with the old and introducing newer ideas for rapid modernization, Onigafuchi's name was changed to Hinamizawa.
4. As Japan sped through modernization, it extended its military might in the name of "rich country, strong military." Spanning military victories in the Sino-Japanese War and the Russo-Japanese War, Japan entered into Pacific War (Pacific Front of WWII).
5*. By this time, Onigafuchi's reverence as a sacred village was in ruins. Villagers and residents from this area were frowned upon as hinin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan#Burakumin). Slanderous and unsubtantiated rumors about Onigafuchi being an isolated hamlet run by criminals and low-lives became the standard.
6*. People were discriminated for just being from Onigafuchi/Hinamizawa. Parents in the outlying areas told their children that residents of Hinamizawa have a disease. Kids who were touched by children of Hinamizawa cried and parents would actually put salt onto the area where he/she were touched.
7*. Adults would tell their children to never go to Hinamizawa as they would disappear as an Onikakushi, chopped up and eaten. They would tell unsubstantiated horror stories that residents of Hinamizawa lived through a famine in the past by eating human corpses.
8*. Such slanderous rumors did not end within childrens' world. Companies refused to hire people from Onigafuchi. Marriages were also broken; when it was found out that they married a person from Onigafuchi, the other family pressed for an immediate divorce.
[*5~8: These are typical of the burakumin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin) problems that Japan faced/faces since the Meiji Restoration. Residents of blacklisted buraku areas faced/faces huge discrimination, ranging from unemployment and marriage for just being from a certain area. As this is a very sensitive issue, it might be one of the reasons why this section was not explained in the anime]
9. Even under the propaganda slogans of "defending this nation as one" during the war, people in Hinamizawa were still discrimated, despite contributing its residents to the war effort.
10. However, the war finally ended in 1945. Men who went off to war returned, but many did not. However, a bright future for Hinamizawa seemed to lie ahead as General MacArthur's GHQ began to implement a new constitution to get rid of social discrimination once and for all (under the Meiji constitution, discrimination was illegal de jure). Residents of Hinamizawa began to work hard to bring back the rich nature of their beloved homeland.
11. One of the persons who contributed much to redeveloping Hinamizawa and amassing immense wealth was Mion's grandfather, Sonozaki Souhei.
12. Souhei was a food and supplies warehouse manager in Harbin during the war. When the end of the war was announced, Souhei schemes with his fellow members and superiors to smuggle canned military food rations back to Japan. Once back in Japan, he made a fortune selling the smuggled canned foods.
13. But Souhei did not use his new found wealth to his own good. He gave all the money that he amassed to his wife, the head of the Sonozaki family.
14. "Let us rebuild Hinamizawa. All the villagers are family. This fortune shall be shared amongst everyone." said Mion's grandmother, Sonozaki Oryou. This is the main reason why Hinamizawa exists as today and why the Sonozaki family has great influence in this area.
15. Using the money, the villagers helped rebuild the stagnating economy of Hinamizawa. Those that succeeded in turn helped others with their new found wealth. The strong bond of Hinamizawa's residents were reinforced through this process.
16. But by the mid 1950s, a change in the wind took place once again. Suspicions and rumors of the "human canned meat" began to spread. Souhei's former superior officer broke out the shocking news that the canned meat that he sold were in fact, human meat. Because of this, the unfounded discrimination of residents of Hinamizawa as demons that devour on human flesh started to flare again.
17. Why would human meat be in canned foods? Wasn't Souhei just a manager of the supplies warehouse? According to his former superior, Souhei was really just a meager private who exterminated mice and got rid of human corpses - a job fit for a lowly social status coming from his residential records.
18. Souhei would later be transferred as a corpse handler to a certain medical unit of the military. But that unit was a dark area of the military whose staff were doing things that were more inhumane that the unfounded rumors of Onigafuchi.
19. People would know this military unit as Unit 731 - the inhumane medical experimentations on human test subjects to create biological weapons. How obnoxious these military people are - they look down upon a resident of Onigafuchi/Hinamizawa just on baseless rumors and bottom-out-of-sight social economic status when they themselves are doing things that are far worse and horrific.
20. Souhei was transferred to a division within that unit where they were studying how to obtain much needed food for its militarymen. Japan was facing a huge problem during the war in providing its servicemen food in their frontlines. Malnutrition lead to loss of concentration and body mechanisms to fight off diseases. The morale to keep on fighting was also in danger. Hence, this division was given the order to find a way to obtain food in the battlefield. At first they studied stealing from locals and creating survival kits on plants and animals of that region. However, they soon lost sight and opened the door of the unthinkable.
21. What is the most readily available source of protein in the battlefield? Yes, you thought right - human corpses. Bodies of the enemy or our own servicemen, it didn't matter. They believed that its servicemen should eat whatever that is available to live out this war. Mion's grandfather would despise them. These men frowned upon him with baseless slanders of coming from a village that ate human corpses. Yet, these men were the ones that went further. "So what if they call me a corpse-eating demon? These men were the real demons. I don't feel subjugated on no matter what they say." said Mion's grandfather.
22. Several samples were made. But these scientists dared not to try out themselves. So they sent some to the front under the name of "alternative meat." The scientists stamped a logo "circle-alt" on these cans so they don't mistakenly eat them themselves. But the servicemen at the fronts loved it.
23. Did Souhei really sell canned foods that were made by human meat? No one knows precisely. Souhei himself denied it firmly to the end. But there were many who were jealous of Hinamizawa's road to rebuilding it's economy. They called us people who were living off of the wealth made by selling human corpses. Once again, Hinamizawa was back to where it was - being discriminated by everyone.
24. Kids of Hinamizawa were once again thrown stones by other children. That's when Mion' grandmother stepped in. She told the children, "if one child throws a stone at you, throw back with two. If two kids throw stones at you, get back at them with four. If eight kids come after you with sticks, you thwart them off with sixteen. If slandered by thirty, you yell back with sixty. And if a thousand tries to get us, we all come out as residents of Hinamizawa." Sonozaki Oryou stepped up as a leader of Hinamizawa.
25. Residents of Hinamizawa formed a strong bond to look after each other. If a child was bullied, they went to the bully's house. If an adult was discriminated, everyone, young and old, went out to voice their opinion. "Piss off a member of Hinamizawa, you're gonna get into deep shit." That was the thought process behind it. That is the exact reason why Kei was saved by the residents of Hinamizawa who ganged up on those three delinquents.
26 onward: as you saw in the anime
This explanation itselves are quite long (as well as touching several sensitive issues). Hence, the Mion's explanation of Hinamizawa's past was rather shortened to demons of Onigafuchi being bullied by others.
Since I asked and you went through all the trouble to answer, Thanks! Puts a lot of perspective into the responsibility held by the Sonozaki family.
Paranoia833
2006-05-29, 11:36
Is it just me, or is there a rather sizeable clue in the "Jail cell" scene, that people have glossed over?
Remember when Keiichi is talking to "Shion" in the jail cell, and "Mion" appears behind him? Don't you remember the way in which she appeared behind him? It was as if she teleported behind him - as far as i know, no human can do that. So it seems to me that this means one of two things -
1.)"Mion" is actually the demon disguised in human form.
OR
2.)This is all someone's "dream" / "hallucination", but whose is it? It can't be Keiichi's because he was looking at "Shion" the whole time. So that leaves it down to either "Shion" or "Mion".
Of course, it's possible that Shion imagined that it happened, given her extremely fragile state when Keiichi found her.
As Sushi said, that's a common technique in anime for someone acting quickly but stealthily. Doesn't neccesarily mean anything. Heck, even if it did, Higurashi doesn't seem to be the kind of anime where it's wise to rely soley on visual clues.
Anyway, now that I've seen the episode in question and am not to damn tired to phrase my thoughts intelligably...
I have to say it seems obvious to me that the final Mion is a hallucination. Discounting blatent supernatural involvment there's no way Mion could get into the hospital and hide on K1s bed for an extended period of time, all without anyone noticing and while bleeding heavily from the head. My theory, as it has been for ages, is that Oishi's cigarettes are the stimulus. Still kind of cheesy as it relies on Oishi having both a motive to off K1 and having access to some wonder-drug that has somehow eluded scientific analysis. Not the sort of thing that really seems feasable for a cop to just have.
I've concucted a somewhat shaky theory that it may come from the swamp near Hinamizawa: the tips put a lot of emphasis on the swamps, an area we've never seen in the show, and considering that was where the bloodiest ceremonies took place in Onigafuchi's past and the leader of the lynch mob dissapeared there, it's not impossible that Oishi could have discovered the swamp's murderous properties while investigating the original murder. Of course if that were the case, Oishi could just turn the drug in and 'solve' the secret of Hinamizawa or sell it off for big bucks or whatever, rather than keeping it a secret for so long, so it's not really a great theory. Still it may end up having a grain of truth in it somewhere so I'm keeping it in mind.
The Mion/Shion identity issue seems too complex for me to even touch at this stage, although I have to admit the 'fatal frame' theory looks attractive.
That's all I can think of for now, I'll write more if I think of it.
aliensporebomb
2006-05-29, 12:23
Wait a second:
Oishi says a lot of things at the conclusion of episode 8 that we just have to
take his word on.
The reappearance of "Mion/Shion" at the conclusion would seem to indicate
he may be having just as much fun as the allegedly demon possessed.
Mion dead at the bottom of a well yet seemingly alive and insane at the conclusion?
Mion's grumbling about him in the first four episodes "I should have killed
him" seems to indicate he was working for her or her family.
Hmmm...Could his little things he says be just to push K1 over the edge?
K1 = hallucination? Insanity? Brought on by Oishi's smoke or hypnotic suggestion?
Or maybe it's just what she said:
"If you had given mion the doll, things might have been all right."
Sad.
Wait a second:
Oishi says a lot of things at the conclusion of episode 8 that we just have to
take his word on.
The reappearance of "Mion/Shion" at the conclusion would seem to indicate
he may be having just as much fun as the allegedly demon possessed.
Mion at the bottom of a well yet seemingly alive and insane at the conclusion?
Mion's grumbling about him in the first four episodes "I should have killed
him" seems to indicate he was working for her or her family.
Hmmm...Could his little things he says be just to push K1 over the edge?
Why should Oishi has to have been working for her family in order for Mion to want to kill him? She is the heir of an yakuza family, he is a cop who would love to destroy this yakuza family - that in itself is more than good enough reason, not to mention all the murders in which she is a suspect.
But not trusting everything Oishi (or anyone else in that series for that matter) says is a good approach. Him lying about Takano and Mion being "walking dead" is probably the easiest explanation.
Tatarigoroshi-hen is also the most confusing (complex?) chapter of them all. Watanagashi-hen's ending was confusing, but it's nothing compared to Tatarigoroshi-hen, which will have more twists and turns than a rollercoaster.
I can't wait! :) It seems that I will have to take notes while watching it in order to come up with a theory that makes any sense.
As for K1 not getting stabbed..... then why would he be in the hospital? SOMEONE stabbed him. Whether that someone was Mion, or Oyashiro-sama, or something else remains to be seen.
He could have stabbed himself, you know. If we assuem that he was crazy enough to see Mion trying to kill him once (end of the episodes), it's possible that it happened twice.
Now that I think about it, only Mion went psycho for this chapter.
Now that I think about it, only Mion went psycho for this chapter.
It may not necessarily be "psycho", but:
Photographer clawed out his throat.
Rika repeatedly stabbed her own head with butcher's knife.
Shion (?) jumped out of the window after she got into a quarrel with herself.
Keichi saw Mion/Shion attacking him after she died.
It may not necessarily be "psycho", but:
Photographer clawed out his throat.
Rika repeatedly stabbed her own head with butcher's knife.
Shion (?) jumped out of the window after she got into a quarrel with herself.
Keichi saw Mion/Shion attacking him after she died.
I mean really really crazy.
It may not necessarily be "psycho", but:
Photographer clawed out his throat.
Rika repeatedly stabbed her own head with butcher's knife.
Shion (?) jumped out of the window after she got into a quarrel with herself.
Keichi saw Mion/Shion attacking him after she died.
Yes, indeed. Everyone had a kind of psycho moment in Watanagashi-hen.
Except, maybe, Satoko-chan. Poor little girl, got killed because Mion (Shion/Demon/Whatev) wanted to have fun. D:
Even Rena had psycho moments if you think for a moment... She acted like a profissional detective, and she even owned Oishi. How can not this be psycho? ;P
So basically, everyone went psycho :heh:
chrno_the_sinner
2006-05-29, 19:03
So um... this epilouge-ish thing with Rena's fate.... what else does it say??? Care to enlighten us Sushi-Y?
So um... this epilouge-ish thing with Rena's fate.... what else does it say??? Care to enlighten us Sushi-Y?
That one was not in Watanagashi-hen persay. It was in it's respective answer chapter, Meakashi-hen. So, until we get there, we can't say for sure if the anime will do it or not. Let's wait and see.
Circular Logic
2006-05-30, 04:50
My thoughts on the matter:
19. People would know this military unit as Unit 731 - the inhumane medical experimentations on human test subjects to create biological weapons. How obnoxious these military people are - they look down upon a resident of Onigafuchi/Hinamizawa just on baseless rumors and bottom-out-of-sight social economic status when they themselves are doing things that are far worse and horrific
Why do I somehow feel this is related to the 'necromancy' which we've seen? I still don't believe that there's anything supernatural going on.
One other thing I noticed - Mion's eyes only turned cat-like when she met Keiichi outside his house. The whole of the time before that, she was normal - was one the demon, the other...plain craziness? Who knows?
The events of this episode were actually pretty clear - there wwasn't much ambiguity about them, unlike Onikakushi-hen, which I preferred; it opened up many more mysteries.
So, in the end, we have a lot of unanswered questions...
1. Who are those people in the white van?
2. What's the significance of the syringe?
3. What's the significance of whatever was in the storehouse, if any?
4. Why are the dead walking?
5. What are Ooishi's intentions?
6. Why do the girls turn psychotic?
7. Why do Mion's eyes change?
8. What happened to Rika & Satoko?
9. Was Mion REALLY the one responsible for all the Hinamizawa murders?
10. Who are Tomitake & Takano, and what was their purpose?
SpaceDrake
2006-05-30, 09:31
Even Rena had psycho moments if you think for a moment... She acted like a profissional detective, and she even owned Oishi. How can not this be psycho? ;P
Actually, I suspect Rena was quite sane in this one - piercingly so.
Actually, I suspect Rena was quite sane in this one - piercingly so.
Second that. My sweet Rena is a genius in this arc :D (hmm... genius from madness is not far away... :p)
Eh, is Keiichi a total moron or what? I mean, come on, Mion just confessed everything :p You have a serial killer before you, a crime lord, a mafia boss, and you stroll around and talk idly? Even if we assume that Rena and Mion were really close friends so Rena wants to support her if she turns herself in, Keiichi (based on his reaction pattern) should have run off to get a bat ready. He got nuts for lesser reasons in the previous arc :p
Oh well... Keiichi is probably like Kenny in Southpark. He has to be killed in every arc in a different way :p
WOW. Nice episode. The animation quality was a little low during someof the tensest momments and the backgrounds felt a little too bright and cheerful for what should have been really creepy locations (but maybe I'm playing too much Resident Evil), but the overall impact of the episode was up there with episode 4! Big surprises, multiple climaxes, and a seeming hard left into the territory of the supernatural - all very very good.
I'm really glad the show is mixing it up this way, I was afraid it would start to form too much of predictable cycle. The mystery would keep me hooked, but the stories would get stale.
This episode threw a bunch of my hunches out the window. I figured it would, but it really surprised me that the opening murder didn't match up with the climax murder. I think KJ hinted that the opening murder happens in the next chapter, but in any case I think it's a shame that the murders don't match. I hope there is some logic to what murders get shown at the beginning of the chapter... :-(
Though what really broke my heart is Mion's history. Even if she *is* crazy/possesed at the end of the show, she's confessed to torturing people for he familly multiple times before! Say it ain't so Mion! I was so sympathetic to her with her tomboyish attitude and unexpressed attraction to Keiichi. ( ;_; )
A few concrete thoughts:
I definately suspect Keiichi of imagining Mion at the end, both in the yard and at the hospital. How he got delusional... not sure. Same thing for Shion's death, and likely for Mion's suicide in the well. What ever is causing them I think the crazy odd "suicides" are triggered by halllucinations.
Oishi seems to be honestly trying to get to the bottom of things based on the TIPs we see. I think his odd attitude is some kind of weird tough cop character, but his actions are clearly mudling too much into the leading famillies affairs. If he was in on "it" (whatever it is) it would be much easier for him to go along with the dropping of teh various investigations...
New stoopid theory : homocidal insanity from water is trigggered not by a blow to the head but by strong romantic emotion. Love Demon Town!
Implosion
2006-05-31, 13:20
18. Souhei would later be transferred as a corpse handler to a certain medical unit of the military. But that unit was a dark area of the military whose staff were doing things that were more inhumane that the unfounded rumors of Onigafuchi.
19. People would know this military unit as Unit 731 - the inhumane medical experimentations on human test subjects to create biological weapons. How obnoxious these military people are - they look down upon a resident of Onigafuchi/Hinamizawa just on baseless rumors and bottom-out-of-sight social economic status when they themselves are doing things that are far worse and horrific.
Err, didn't the photographer have dog tags? Could his connection not be going into the warehouse, but instead being part of Unit 731?
Also, first post! Another person who joined just cause of this awesome anime~
Interesting, with a history like that. Why would the Sonozaki want to revive the old Watanagashi tradition again? It makes outsider's perception on the Hinamizawa residents worse. Or do they feel that it can't get any better and they are using it to write fear into their enemies like the tips say.
I must say Watanagashi is way more confusing and intriguing than Onikakushi with the twin business and the old traditions coming into light... wait Tatarigoroshi tops it? I can't wait. Regarding the Mion/Shion zombies and duplicates, I feel like I should give up and say something supernatural is happening, though I'm still stubbornly hoping otherwise. :heh:
Anyway after thinking for a few days and still without any big theory in mind, I think I'll just present my thoughts on some of the smaller questions first. To help my own writing, I'll use onee whenever I'm refering to the same person that is the evil Mion in episode 8.
01. Who brought Keiichi into the equipments store? Shion or Mion?
It seems to me Mion never like talking about the vile happenings in Hinamizawa so I don't think she did it. Whether she would do it as Shion I'm not sure. However I'm not convinced that they switched during the festival. Mion was Mion at the tea scene and if the group were near the shrine all day, I don't think the two would have the chance to switch. More so when you think if one of them was not agreeable to the switch, there was the risk of two Mion/Shion appearing at the place same time.
02. So why did Mion asked Keiichi if she had seen Shion that night?
We know from ep 8 that everything started from the doll incident, between that and the Watanagashi festival, there was some time for oneesan to plan her punishment to Keiichi. Perhaps Mion got wind of it or she had expected something to happen?
03. The phone calls, which was Mion, which was Shion?
I think the library event was Mion dressed up as Shion wanting to hear the truth from Keiichi, but Oishi thwarted her plan and that call was the follow-up. Well the anime shows the same room which Shion jumped off from in ep 8, but I have my reservations to trust the anime again. :heh: Everything is supposed to be in Keichi's first person view yes?
The next phone call when Shion claimed she confessed to the village chief, that's probably oneesan. Her response to Keiichi's apology seems flawless, but she didn't have to know what was said in the previous phone call to answer that. The last phone call obviously was oneesan too.
04. Who was involved in the Watanagashi incidents?
Since I believe Shion is onee, I point my finger to her. That part of her confession could possibly be Shion's confession not Mion's. And remember when onee apologized for dirtying Mion? If Shion is really Mion, it would be strange of her to apologize if she was just returning to her original identity. Though I guess she might meant dirtying Keiichi's impression of Mion. But now I think of it, in Onikakushi-hen when Keiichi told Mion that he knew of her quarrel with the kantoku, Mion cried. Now what if she had felt sad that Keiichi whom she thought of as a good friend would insinuate her involement in the death of the kantoku, that it wasn't her but she didn't have a way to deny it without telling Keiichi too much. Wouldn't the tears make sense that way?
05. What did onee meant with being possessed by the Oni?
What if the torture and killing had developed into her a perverse addiction where per one year cycle during the Watanagashi period, there will be this demon of an urge in her to kill someone?
06. When did Shion go missing.
I know the game stated that Oishi said the library was when anyone last saw Shion, but as mentioned in (03) I think that Shion was actually Mion in disguise and even if people saw Shion on the outside, who can be sure she wasn't Mion on the inside. Well anyway, my theory goes that Mion was still Mion that morning when everyone was talking about the missing village chief in school. Maybe she went to confront Shion/onee after that morning and got put into the dungeon cell instead.
07. So the Mion in the ladder scene is onee?
Yeah I think so. Look at the Watanagashi incidents, a good number of victims were related to Satoko. By pushing the blame to Satoko being cursed, maybe onee felt less guilty?
08. Who has the tattoo? Shion or Mion?
Hey I know it's anime where realism can takes a step back, but I still find this interesting. The uniform which Shion wears at Angel Mort had a portion of the upper back exposed and judging from the size of the tattoo from the OP, Shion's hair might not be able to cover it all the time. Would she take on the job if she had the tattoo and there was a risk of it being seen? I don't think she would though so I'm guessing that Sonozaki is probably not the heiress.
09. But onee was going to show it to Rena and Keiichi!
Who knows maybe she was going to come up with an excuse if Rena hadn't broken her off. Y'know, something like "but it's the Sonozaki tradition that outsiders who saw the tatto must die. Do you still want to see it?" Well I thought she sound a bit relieved when Rena spoke up, she said "thank you"
10. So Mion the imouto is the heiress?
I'm thinking so, though it's strange that Shion and not Mion was behind the Watanagashi incidents. I'm thinking perhaps Shion, like her mother had her rights taken from her because she did something wrong. Knowing when Mion got her tattoo might shed more light on this. Might be Sonozaki Akane, their mother played a big role in all of these too, maybe she was the one who objected to the killing of the twins or maybe she lost her child bearing ability after the twins. The Sonozaki are afterall the enforcer of traditions and ceremonies within the gosanke, breaking traditions when they are protecting it would be deem disgraceful and hypocritical. If they are willing to break one tradition, it might be to save another one ie. the bloodline of the successor passing from mother to daughter(?)
Main points, I think:
Shion - onee
Shion - not heiress
Shion - involved in all Watanagashi killings
Shion - took Keiichi into the equiptments chamber
Mion - did not want Keiichi dead
As usual, I have no way to piece my conclusions together, I wonder how many of them are wrong. There are alot more I'm still wondering, the reappearance of the syringe for example...
Midrange
2006-05-31, 17:16
[edit: argh, wrong thread. sorry. post removed]
I don't understand why Mion is carrying that gun around in public and for everyone to see. And no one mentions anything. Just what's up with that? Is it because she's the yakuza heir or something?
And when she stabbed Keiichi(hallucination?) with the knife, she could have made it simpler and just use her gun...
I don't understand why Mion is carrying that gun around in public and for everyone to see. And no one mentions anything. Just what's up with that? Is it because she's the yakuza heir or something?
And when she stabbed Keiichi(hallucination?) with the knife, she could have made it simpler and just use her gun...
It has already been discussed that the gun itself is insignificant. Being Mion's character, that can be more like a water pistol. Besides, guns are illegal in Japan, and no yakuza would be stupid enough to carry one around in public in plain view of the police.
LordAshram
2006-06-01, 18:34
Well, she WAS holding it rather defensively in that scene at the beginning of ep 5... Could be a stungun or something.
Well, she WAS holding it rather defensively in that scene at the beginning of ep 5... Could be a stungun or something.
That was already mentioned in the same thread as well:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=554430&postcount=39
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=555082&postcount=59
Shall I put this in the Q&A section for references purposes as this question may pop up rather frequently?
FubaredByAnime
2006-06-01, 19:23
That was already mentioned in the same thread as well:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=554430&postcount=39
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=555082&postcount=59
Shall I put this in the Q&A section for references purposes as this question may pop up rather frequently?
Might as well. You know it's going to keep popping up along with the "Why is the Na red?" and "How are all the stories connected?" questions. Though I have to admit, the gun topic is typically number 1 in popularity.
I just have a question about the last frame.
As 大石 told k1 both twins' dead in the hospital, then how come Mion appeared at last. was it just k1's imagination?
I only saw the red screen,was k1 dead then?
Circular Logic
2006-06-02, 07:26
Oh. Another thing that's bothering me.
Why didn't Mion kill Rena? She killed Rika and Satoko, and the Village Chief simply for being confided to - why not Rena? And why was Rena so sure she wouldn't be killed? Unless there was another reason why Mion started killing...
Oh. Another thing that's bothering me.
Why didn't Mion kill Rena? She killed Rika and Satoko, and the Village Chief simply for being confided to - why not Rena? And why was Rena so sure she wouldn't be killed? Unless there was another reason why Mion started killing...
We cannot be sure that the village chief and Rika were killed because Shion and Keiichi confessed their guilt to them. She might have killed Rena and the chief for changing the lock of the shrine warehouse, making it easier for Takano to get in. Or she might have killed Rika for her mistake in the ceremony and the chief for some unknown reason.
09. But onee was going to show it to Rena and Keiichi!
Who knows maybe she was going to come up with an excuse if Rena hadn't broken her off. Y'know, something like "but it's the Sonozaki tradition that outsiders who saw the tatto must die. Do you still want to see it?" Well I thought she sound a bit relieved when Rena spoke up, she said "thank you"
I actually thought the same while watching this scene - just offering to show the tattoo does not mean that much. After all, we have learned that we should doubt even what the characters see, let alone charactes being convinced that something is true. :)
iamandragon
2006-06-02, 22:22
Just watched this series...and I think it's quite good...
Seeing everyone's assumption...I just thought of this possibility:
After the festival...
Mion tried to kill everyone who entered the temple.
Mion was on her way to kill Shion.
Shion defeated Mion.
Shion decided to 'punish' Mion and imprisoned Mion.
Shion revealed Mion's crime by imposting her and pretend to torture Keiji.
Shion knocked out Keiji by shocking him.
Shion killed herself by throwing herself into the well.
Mion and Keiji got rescued.
The demon in Mion awakened.
Demon Mion stabbed Mion, but was stopped by human Mion's mind.
Mion realized that the demon is going to take over her.
Mion commited suicide so that the demon cannot kill Keiji.
That would make it correct timeline wise...though it's quite ridicoulus and full of holes...
AzureFlux
2006-06-04, 13:15
I actually thought the same while watching this scene - just offering to show the tattoo does not mean that much. After all, we have learned that we should doubt even what the characters see, let alone charactes being convinced that something is true. :)
Even the characters themselves did not get to see her tattoo. That fact itself opens up alot of possibilities
D a m i e n
2006-07-19, 03:29
When Mion seems relieved not to have to show her tatoo i think it s pretty understandable not because she doesnt have it but because she has her pride. It would involve revieling her naked body to her friend and the one she loves (though he doesnt loves her but her sister instead) wich would hurt her feeling even more. And also because she has her pride as the heir of the yakuza familly and being naked in front of anyone is pretty humiliating for someone being used to be treated in her house with all the respect due to her stading. That is why i think she is relieved.
Also Rena seems to know too much in this chapter. Sure we get to see she is pretty clever but she is showing too much confidence imo going to see mion then letting keiichi/miom alone together. something with the conversation in Mion's house was making feel that it was too well written like both girl knew the scrypt perfectely. Her voice also is not as childish as it should be. It makes me think she might have some connection with Miom other than best friend. Rena then got ride of Mion while keiichi was unconscious <-- personnal feeling only since it s made obsolete after the doll explanation and with the appearance of Mion in front of keiichi.
Using the spoiler from the book we got about a syringue being next to Shion suicide place i m assuming it was Rena since she is only one left alive that drug Shion to stab Keiichi then to suicide herself, i m not fond of paranormal/zombi theory. The appearance of Mion at the end would be an hallucination due to medecines, stress and infos given to keiichi.
Using only the anime to draw conclusion i would say that for the timeline in the deaths between Mion, Shion and keiichi attack i only see a weak state of mind for Shion since i dont want to have any paranormal activity, i only think in rationnal term. Keiichi being attack i can only think it was Shion suffering from dual personnality after what she went throught because it would otherwise involve zombi. She then attack keiichi then commit suicide. The appearance at the end is imo just an hallucination due to what he just learn + various medications like painkiller used at the hospital.
Sorry for the awfull grammar not from an english speacking country and at work writting 1 sentence here and the next 15 min later, not good at all for coherence and grammatically correct paragraph :p
I have just yesterday started seeing this Anime.., and unbelivably.. I had not seen in a while an Anime that so quickly made me fell in love with it..., not Fate-Stay, not even Haruhi..; I guess the last one that realy "caught" me this much was Rozen Maiden :)
But all and all this is just to say how Higurashi is realy in fact.. THAT good.., and I am only so far on episode 8 ^^
Here are now my thoughts regarding the ending of Watanagashi-hen..., altough I did pretty much had a good idea at the "picture" at the end of Onikakushi-hen.., I chose to not post anything on the episode 4 thread, thus using my thoughts to support my ideas on this one.
I'd better spoil tag it just in case ^^
From Onikakushi-hen I was left with the idea that Keiichi was a realy important person to Mion.., on episode 4 when he confronted her about keeping secrets from him, and then told her he was not her friend.., Mion started to burst into tears...
As in..., she realy cared for him, and did not wish for him to get himself involved.., specialy in the way he did.
Then on episode 5 of Watanagashi-hen upon the scene where Keiichi chose to hand over the doll to Rena and said to Mion "this is probably something that you wouldn't like".., her actions after, when she so badly faked as not to care realy gaved my previous speculations support.
Later on though when he then met Shion.., and this one said to him "now I see why Mii-chan likes you. But... can I.. like you too ?", and specialy the WAY she said it..
Also then on episode 6 & so forfth where she clearly tries to make Mion jealous by using Keiichi and shoves it into her face.., compleatly lowering her down.. gaved me the thought that..., now bare with me here.., its going to get a bit crazy :p
Maybe Shion was in love with someone just as Mion is with Keiichi ? Though something went rong and Shion is now alone.., upon seeing Mion beeing happy.. she could not stand it and wanted to first humiliate her and then kill her? just on the fact that she could not stand the fact that her sister who was going to in-herit everything was also now getting the love that to her was denied.
And this might be a REALY long shot.., but is there any possibilities that the person whom Shion was in love with was Satoshi ?
Since Mion loves Keiichi and Keiichi resembles Satoshi in every way (or so I could conclude from Onikakushi-hen), I could see that this fact strenghned her hatred for Mion beeing in love.
But this is just my head going wild ^^
For the switches though.., I only came to realise, or I speculate that is.., that the person on the Mannor standing in front of Keiichi and Rena was Shion and not Mion, thus using the "switch" as previously mencioned.
I also belive that Mion had done a "switch" on episode 4, when she was the one who went to Keiichi's house and brought him the Bento, so its very possible for both to realy pass as the other whenever the feel like it. Altough probably never mencioning it to the other.
Another switch I belive happened was in during when they went to check Satoko's and Rika's house..., I belive that Mion was actualy Shion instead..
This because.., and it kind of is where I first thought of Satoshi beeing someone who ment something to Shion as I previously stated..
When Keiichi is climbing the letter and he meanciones Satoko.., Mion (or as I belive Shion) went compleatly nuts saying all sorts of bad things about Sakoto and how she caused a huge burden for Satoshi.
We know from Onikakushi-hen that Sakoto's brother is Satoshi.. and maybe Sakoto did not aprove for the two to be together and it caused something bad to happen ?
Anyway's.. Mion never had this reaction towards Sakoto. she is in fact her friend.., therefor that entire scene just felt as if something was rong.., thus my theory comming into place.
Also.., we never got to see the "demon tattoo" on her back.., I belive Rena quickly saw that that was in fact Shion and said that there was no need for her to show it, since it would unveil the switch, and Rena wanted to see how far the play would last, sort of speak.
Her "sush" to Keiichi with a finger in this scene realy supports my idea that Rena caught Shion's act pretty quickly.
And altough we do get to see whom I belive to be Mion in the cage later.., because its dark we cannot see the tattoo on her back, its all very well set :)
My take on this is though is..., Shion is REALY mentaly unstable.., I first got it from most of the pictures I'd seen, but also from the OP.. and specialy now.., since I belive its due to what happened between her and the person she loved.
Thus naturaly this leads me to belive that she finaly "cracked" she switched places with Mion and imprisioned her, maybe even tortured her ?
(It is absolutly clear to me that the person inside the cage was Mion and not Shion.., the one-sama part mencioned before realy gaved my speculations more foundation.., not to mencione the fact that through the entire episode Mion acted realy as a phsyco-Shion.., and when we see Shion in the cage she acted realy like Mion would.., specialy upon seeing Keiichi.., but frightned)
She then called Rika over as to lure Satoko (due to her hatred towards her) and killed her.., after as to not leave any witnesses behind.., she toke out Rika aswell.
I belive she clearly had intentions of killing Keiichi after aswell and then Mion and probably then herself ^^, altough when she was finaly going to drive the nails into Keiichi's fingers.., she could not do it.
I take it this is some repressed love she still has.., that due to the resemblences on Keiichi between him and her love.., she could bring herself to kill him, specialy after hearing his wishes and dedication towards the Real Mion even when he was about to die.
Shion then placed him to sleep with her taser-gun and after I belive, since she knew there was no more way out.., she atended to his wishes..
So.. she setted the real Mion free and later killed herself.
(I speculate that the body in the well at the end was in fact Shion and not Mion. Shion probably threw herself in, without hope, without nothing anymore..., it was to her the only escape)
Mion however despite having been set free.., probably after having suffered so much tortune and still beeing hunted by the police.., and now Keiichi thinking she was Shion.. definitly went insane..
So after stabbing Keiichi (not fataly), she threw herself from the apartment.., with everyone still thinking she was Shion.
Leaving me the only real puzzle left to uncover is on how Keiichi still saw Shion in the hospital after..., but again.. I am taking another REAL long shot here and say..
That that was all in Keiichi's head.
Upon reading some of the comments on episode 4 from when Onikakushi-hen ended.., it realy seems more and more to me that Keiichi goes mentaly unstable quite easily; not that I can blame him after all that happens to him though ^^
But.., given the needle in the cake which I did not think either existed, and all the so "persecution-like" thoughts that where going through his end throughout the last episodes on the 1st arc.., it realy leads me to belive that probably ALOT that happens is in Keiichi's head and not the "reality" in fact.
Which would give a reasonable explination to the last scene of Watanagashi-hen on episode 8.
Or so I at the moment think :)
I've just been focusing on these subjects for now.., I still have ALOT of questions.. on ALOT of issues.., hopefully the next arcs will fill in some more little info on them :)
But probably then raise more questions :p
I hope there is some true facts on my speculations so far.., otherwhise I will go compleatly nuts ^^
But then again.., I often have the habit of over-complicating things.., and most times the most dificult answers to find out are the easier ones.
All and all I am LOVING this anime :D
Thanks for reading.., once again.., I know I have the habit of making Huge posts, and this is no exception ^^
solwyvern
2006-07-22, 06:40
*whew* I somehow read the entirety :D
Heh, from what I understood, you seem to be blaming Shion for all the wrongdoings in Watanagishi-hen.
[you might want to check out, wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higurashi_no_Naku_Koro_ni) for info, I check it as often as I can]
At first I, too, speculated the same thing, now, I'm not too sure. Because if you notice from the Op. movie, it is Mion who has the tatoo on her back. The sign of the 'Oni' -and that's what posesses her.
Also. from what I read in the manga(-I've read all that's translated so far :p ) the bond between Shion and K1 seems to be more represented, so I've already been having doubts that Shion and Mion actually 'switched places'
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6536/120ms5.th.png (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=120ms5.png)
I have seen some screencaps for episode 16 (the beginning of the answer arcs) And it seems to be all about Shion and Mion. Hopefully everything will be explained there. I haven't seen 16 yet because no subs are out yet. :(
And this might be a REALY long shot.., but is there any possibilities that the person whom Shion was in love with was Satoshi ?
No this, I am SURE has some truth to it. There was a scene in episode 9, I think.
where Keichi mentions something about Satoshi while talking to Shion, Shion then suddenly gets mad with rage. Almost like she doesn't like it when someone talks about Satoshi the wrong way.
Even though that arc ended, Nothing much was explained about Satoshi. ;_;
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/kj1980/elt08.jpg
~0_0~
Upon reading some of the comments on episode 4 from when Onikakushi-hen ended.., it realy seems more and more to me that Keiichi goes mentaly unstable quite easily; not that I can blame him after all that happens to him though ^^
That is of course one of his 'interesting' traits.
I mean, from all the anime I've watched, I've never seen a character like Keichi
(he did however remind me a bit of Eva's Shinji)
You will be even more surprised at how right you are when you see him in the next arc^^
Lastly, you never mentioned anything about Rena, I really believe (hope, anyway) that she plays a big part in the show. I really, really want to see her and Keichi duke it out with that bat and hatchet. And the way she acts in several parts of the show really ticks my interest. Maybe something will happen...~_~
Overall, I cannot answer much myself, the on-goings in this show, unlike some of the people here who have played the game and read the manga.
..but one thing I am sure of is that this show is already on par with my beloved Rozen Maiden. :p
All and all I am LOVING this anime
...
told 'ya. ;) ... though I'm still unsure just how much you do, since it seemed you were a bit reluctant when I first told you.
but to be on par with Rozen, I never knew you would like it that much. :p
You even changed your AV.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go continue those vectors ^^;;
edit: I just read your pm. You were a little too late, since I was already reading your post :heh:
oh, yeah, I can write long posts too -if I feel like it. :p:p:p
*whew* I somehow read the entirety :D
Heh, from what I understood, you seem to be blaming Shion for all the wrongdoings in Watanagishi-hen.
[you might want to check out, wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higurashi_no_Naku_Koro_ni) for info, I check it as often as I can]
At first I, too, speculated the same thing, now, I'm not too sure. Because if you notice from the Op. movie, it is Mion who has the tatoo on her back. The sign of the 'Oni' -and that's what posesses her.
So you belive that there is in fact something un-natural at work here.., as the demon mark having the powers to realy make a person phsycological insane as what happened to Mion (whom I belive to be Shion at that moment) ?
I guess I'll have to wait until I watch the next arcs for more information on this subject.., to me currently though it all seems that everything has a logical explination, a very deep plot indeed.., but its more understandable then something super-natural at work... - Altough I haven't crossed this option out yet myself :p
And yay, this is the bigest post I have ever seen you post :)
solwyvern
2006-07-22, 07:35
So you belive that there is in fact something un-natural at work here.., as the demon mark having the powers to realy make a person phsycological insane as what happened to Mion (whom I belive to be Shion at that moment) ?
Hmm, yes and no. ..but I'm starting to align with 'no' lately
Yes, because The very fact that some 'things' happen illogically.
There could really be a curse and Oyashiro-sama, then again, maybe not...
No, because it could be the work of cultists. I still want to find out just who were those 'thugs' that attacked K1.
Also after watching Tatarigoroshi-hen, check some previous episodes, (especially 4)
Alot of people probably know already, but
I noticed this after taking a closer look,
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5985/vlcsnap532659mo2.th.png (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap532659mo2.png)http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5406/vlcsnap533695qz7.th.png (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap533695qz7.png)
Mr. Director. lol
...then again I got even more confused by the pattern of ep14-15 & Rika's premonition >_<;;
And yay, this is the bigest post I have ever seen you post :)
\o/
Hmm, yes and no. ..but I'm starting to align with 'no' lately
Yes, because The very fact that some 'things' happen illogically.
There could really be a curse and Oyashiro-sama, then again, maybe not...
No, because it could be the work of cultists. I still want to find out just who were those 'thugs' that attacked K1.
Also after watching Tatarigoroshi-hen, check some previous episodes, (especially 4)
I just finished Tatarigoroshi-hen..., and yes.., now I see why you tend to lean over to the un-natural possibility..., damn.., this arc compleatly pushed away alot of things that I was counting on beeing sure :p
So yes.., it is possible that the "other" element we speak here is possible.., specialy now more then ever.., Never the less though.
I still am under the impression that most of the events that happened during the Watanagashi-hen had a reasonable answer, much like those of which I based my speculations on my previous posts.
All and all, now regarding Onikakushi-hen..., despite I still having the feeling that most of the events there happened due to.. and now more then ever I am almost positive in this.., Keiichi's mental situation; it is possible that something un-natural started the trigger effect.
But looking into things on a more analystic aspect, and specialy after from what we learned out of Tatarigoroshi-hen regarding Keiichi.., that he is in fact a gifted person..., the explination for his mentality becoming so much unstable in a such short period seems to fit the profile on that its realy due to his more then advarage perception skills..., which then leads him to go phsicotic and even see things which do not exist.
As the example of the needle and the cakes on episode 4, and on most of the events now during the last episodes of Tatarigoroshi-hen regarding Sakoto's uncle.
As for the director.., all who have seen Tatarigoroshi-hen now know who he is aswell.., thus his appearence in episode 4 of Onikakushi-hen is now starting to make more sence.
So all in an overall bases on Onikakushi-hen and Watanagashi-hen it seems that reason still holds more balance in the scale against un-natural.., for what I belive.., despite all of what happened in Tatarigoroshi-hen, and even these arcs can be described as almost alternate realities that compromise each other on a huge number of aspects.
Most of these aspects still happened in the first 2 arcs with a much more reasonable explination or speculations, which means.., even if Tatarigoroshi-hen was mostely driven by un-natural events, it just comes to complement alot of missing parts on the previous 2 reason driven arcs.
Or so I currently belive it to be :p
Off to the next arc I go, I've finaly gotten all the 15 here with me and now I'll definitly be able to catch up :D
after the first two arcs, i think that people reading these boards should read a clear definition of Dissociative Idenity Disorder...
it's a lot to read, but at least skim through it...
it kind of shines a new light on a lot of the events of the first two arcs...
i'm just taking this from wiki because it's easier to cut and paste, but it's pretty acurate and similar to my textbooks' definition...
Dissociative Idenity Disorder
Dissociative identity disorder is a diagnosis described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition, Revised, as the existence in an individual of two or more distinct identities or personalities, each with its own pattern of perceiving and interacting with the environment. To qualify as a dissociative identity disorder, at least two personalities must routinely take control of the individual's behavior, and there must be a loss of memory that goes beyond normal forgetfulness. This memory loss is often referred to as "losing time". These symptoms must occur independently of substance abuse or a general medical condition.
Dissociative identity disorder was initially named multiple personality disorder, and that name remains in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems.
A definition of dissociation
Dissociation is a complex mental process that provides a coping mechanism for individuals confronting painful and/or traumatic situations. It is characterized by a dis-integration of the ego. Ego integration, or more properly ego integrity, can be defined as a person's ability to successfully incorporate external events or social experiences into their perception, and to then present themselves consistently across those events or social situations. A person unable to do this successfully can experience emotional dysregulation, as well as a potential collapse of ego integrity. In other words, this state of emotional dysregulation is, in some cases, so intense that it can precipitate ego dis-integration, or what, in extreme cases, has come to be referred to diagnostically as dissociation.
Dissociation describes a collapse in ego integrity so profound that the personality is considered to literally break apart. For this reason, dissocation is often referred to as "splitting" or "altering". Less profound presentations of this condition are often referred to clinically as disorganization or decompensation. The difference between a psychotic break and a dissociation, or dissociative break, is that, while someone who is experiencing a dissociation is technically pulling away from a situation that s/he cannot manage, some part of the person remains connected to reality. While the psychotic "breaks" from reality, the dissociative disconnects, but not all the way.
Because the person suffering a dissociation does not completely disengage from his/her reality, s/he may appear to have multiple "personalities". In other words, different "people" (read: personalities) to deal with different situations, but generally speaking, no one person (read: personality) who will retreat altogether.
Potential causes of dissociative identity disorder
Dissociative identity disorder is attributed to the interaction of several factors: overwhelming stress, dissociative capacity (including the ability to uncouple one's memories, perceptions, or identity from conscious awareness), the enlistment of steps in normal developmental processes as defenses, and, during childhood, the lack of sufficient nurturing and compassion in response to hurtful experiences or lack of protection against further overwhelming experiences. Children are not born with a sense of a unified identity--it develops from many sources and experiences. In overwhelmed children, its development is obstructed, and many parts of what should have blended into a relatively unified identity remain separate. North American studies show that 97 to 98% of adults with dissociative identity disorder report abuse during childhood and that abuse can be documented for 85% of adults and for 95% of children and adolescents with dissociative identity disorder and other closely related forms of dissociative disorder. Although these data establish childhood abuse as a major cause among North American patients (in some cultures, the consequences of war and disaster play a larger role), they do not mean that all such patients were abused or that all the abuses reported by patients with dissociative identity disorder really happened. Some aspects of some reported abuse experiences may prove to be inaccurate. Also, some patients have not been abused but have experienced an important early loss (such as death of a parent), serious medical illness, or other very stressful events. For example, a patient who required many hospitalizations and operations during childhood may have been severely overwhelmed but not abused.
Human development requires that children be able to integrate complicated and different types of information and experiences successfully. As children achieve cohesive, complex appreciations of themselves and others, they go through phases in which different perceptions and emotions are kept segregated. Each developmental phase may be used to generate different selves. Not every child who experiences abuse or major loss or trauma has the capacity to develop multiple personalities. Patients with dissociative identity disorder can be easily hypnotized. This capacity, closely related to the capacity to dissociate, is thought to be a factor in the development of the disorder. However, most children who have these capacities also have normal adaptive mechanisms, and most are sufficiently protected and soothed by adults to prevent development of dissociative identity disorder.
Symptoms
Patients often have a remarkable array of symptoms that can resemble other neurologic and psychiatric disorders, such as anxiety disorders, personality disorders, schizophrenic and mood psychoses, and seizure disorders. Symptoms of this particular disorder can sometimes include:
depression
anxiety (sweating, rapid pulse, palpitations)
phobias
panic attacks
physical symptoms (severe headaches or other bodily pain)
fluctuating levels of function, from highly effective to disabled
time distortions, time lapse, and amnesia
sexual dysfunction
eating disorders
sleeping disorders (insomnia, sleepwalking, night terrors)
posttraumatic stress
suicidal preoccupations and attempts
episodes of self-mutilation
psychoactive substance abuse[4]
Other symptoms include: Depersonalization, which refers to feeling unreal, removed from one's self, and detached from one's physical and mental processes. The patient feels like an observer of his life and may actually see himself as if he were watching a movie. Derealization refers to experiencing familiar persons and surroundings as if they were unfamiliar and strange or unreal.
Again, doctors must be careful not to assume that a client has MPD or DID simply because they present with some or all of these symptoms. Another factor in the diagnosis is the all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares idea, which is to say that although many of these symptoms may be present in an individual, he or she may not necessarily have DID. For example, someone may have severe PTSD (one symptom) and self mutilate with suicidal ideas, which is 3 of the above symptoms, but will not have DID. In order for DID to be diagnosed, there must be 2 or more distinctly present personalities.
Persons with dissociative identity disorder are often told of things they have done but do not remember and of notable changes in their behavior. They may discover objects, productions, or handwriting that they cannot account for or recognize; they may refer to themselves in the first person plural (we) or in the third person (he, she, they); and they may have amnesia for events that occurred between their mid-childhood and early adolescence. Amnesia for earlier events is normal and widespread.
it's possible that with the stress of being the heir to the Sonazaki yukuza family and of having seen a murder at a young age during the fight over the dam, Mion suffers from a dissociative identity disorder in which she uses the name and countenance of the demon to "dissociate" herself from the terrible violence and stress surrounding her, as well as the bad memories
the same can be said of Keiichi and Rena in Onikakushi... i guess even in Watanagashi, they both snap a little from time to time... but not as bad as in the first arc
i'm not discounting a paranormal cause, especially after 9-13, but there is a definite explanation for it with this theory...
also one of the hints is about Ooishi-san talking with the coroner about Keiichi and what would cause someone to commit suicide in the manner... he tells the detective something along the lines of "when a bipolar individual is in the process of shifting from one pole to the other, that is the only time they would actually commit suicide... the other times they either have to much energy or not enough... well, the same is often true for Dissociative Identity Disorder... patients can usually only commit suicide when shifting from one personality to another... you generally don't see one personality that is just plain suicidal, regardless of the pther personalities... that only happens in the movies, and it seems that the writers are going for much more solid, realistic and well0calculated psychology here...
Hunter Nin.
2006-07-25, 18:44
I'm not sure if this is just a trick of the light but...
Shion (or whomever is pretending to be Shion) is the one with tits. This may add wieght to the switch theory as they may have wanted her to appear more mature to show that she is really the older twin in disquise.
okay, then that makes me have a new question:
if Shion is supposed to be the "older twin"...
she can't be that much older or they can't be twins...
a couple of days at most...
i've never heard of anything with twins being born more than two days apart...
which is rare in itself...
so are they supposed to be sisters who just look very much alike or are they twins???
okay, then that makes me have a new question:
if Shion is supposed to be the "older twin"...
she can't be that much older or they can't be twins...
a couple of days at most...
i've never heard of anything with twins being born more than two days apart...
which is rare in itself...
so are they supposed to be sisters who just look very much alike or are they twins???
Mion is the oldest of the two, not Shion.., and they where both born in the same day in the same moment; as all twins almost always are..
But you know.., you can never "take out" two babies at once right.., henceforth the first baby to come out is declared the oldest one.
True that that makes Mion only older then Shion by a few minutes.., but it makes her older none the less.
So they are in fact twins, born in the same day, in the same moment.., Mion is only older because she was the first to come out of her mothers womb.
Kisuke06
2006-09-02, 14:52
So, I have watched Higurashi until episode 8, but I have some questions:
1- The one in jail was Mion or Shion? Or there is no way of knowing that?
2- In the first scene of episode 5, Rika is killing herself with a knife while Mion/Shion(now I'm not sure of anything >.<)is watching her. The first scene in episode 1 did happen in episode 4, so why the scene at episode 5 didn't happen?
Bloodseeker
2006-09-02, 15:45
Just keep watching, Itachi. You'll get your answers later.
The answers are in the detective chapter, Meakashi-hen (Eps 16-21)
If we answer them for you here we'd be spoiling it :D
Kisuke06
2006-09-02, 16:58
Oh, I see. I tought that I had missed something. lol
I will keep watching the serie then. :D
Renaissance Otaku
2006-10-14, 11:21
KJ, thanks for filling in what the anime left out, but did you have to edit in the spoiler fo episode 21? I was reading it on the assumption that it covered stuff only up to episode eight, as that's as far as I've watched. I didn't need to know that right now.
I'm having a hard enough time liking this show as it is. Thanks for the rest though...
typhonsentra
2009-05-15, 23:32
Wait, there's a lot that confused me about this episode.
The demon Mion didn't (Or did she? It might've been mentioned in passing) end up killing Rena even though Rena was the one who initially made it awaken in the first place? Is this a clue to something important? Wait, they said Mion was already dead and... it was just an act by a completely different person? This is weird....
Also, I did accidentally spoil something on the show from the Wiki for this show a while back: Shion was in love with Satoshi but it was established that the real Shion was missing by this point. So why in episode 7 did the Mion (Or the person impersonating her) get so upset over Satoshi working so hard for his sister? It sounded like jealousy Does that mean it was Shion all along? If it was, why didn't the girl behind the bars correct Keiichi when he called her Shion? Was she just "Too scared"?
WarriorKK
2009-05-16, 09:44
Keep watching, until ep.16-21, you'll undestand... most of them.
Minus your last question. Because anime was skipped. Go to play visual novel / listen drama cd / read manga... instead.
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