View Full Version : Is fansubbing still relevant?
chibikit
2003-12-22, 22:53
I was reading through the post in Anime News Network's forums and found that the majority of posters there were strongly convinced of one thing: fansubs are irrelevant*.
The main argument for this is that there are lots of anime licensing companies in America now, thus meaning that most shows are going to be licensed anyway. Therefore, why bother? Fansubbing's goal of promoting awareness of anime has been acheived so all fansubbers should pack up and retire.
Another view often bandied about in those forums is that the current crop of fansubbers are egomaniacal fame bandits bent on making a name for themselves by subbing the most popular show in the least possible time. Every feature of fansubs nowadays, from karaoke effects to the presence of logos and even group names/credits in the AVIs, are proof-positive of this, according to this viewpoint.
In short, there is a question of whether there should or should not be any more fansubs floating about not just in ANN, but sometimes here as well, as seen in threads like the Hacking and Su-Yu threads.
These aren't my actual opinions, by the way. I'm merely laying down the foundation for discussion on the topic. Two pence for your thoughts.
Footnotes:
* Actually, the ANN forumers are more of the opinion that digital fansubs specifically are evil and irrelevant, but this is because they're mostly old-time VHS fansubbers who are, in my opinion, largely bitter that the whole "To get a fansub you must find a well-connected otaku and bow to him" system of their time has been replaced and that digital fansubbing has made many of them irrelevant. Nevertheless, they try to be consistent and therefore declared fansubs to be similarly irrelevant for the reasons mention in the main text.
I guess they are, but considering that R1s have been recently selling like hotcakes, the fansubs aren't cutting into their profits one bit.
SetaNoriyasu
2003-12-22, 23:24
actually, the reason why the japanese production companies aren't constricting the releases of fansubs, since it inadvertantly promotes the anime, die hard fans would definately buy the DVD's produced since it is of higher quality
Though, the people that are really bugged by it are the american companies that licsence the anime, since it is they who spend the money to higher translators and subbers, where as the japs dont
The main argument for this is that there are lots of anime licensing companies in America now, thus meaning that most shows are going to be licensed anyway. Therefore, why bother?
I guess they join the ranks of Americans who can't point out where America is on a world map. There is a world out there that isn't covered by an R1 license, as hard as it is to believe.
I was reading through the post in Anime News Network's forums and found that the majority of posters there were strongly convinced of one thing: fansubs are irrelevant*.
That is partially true but not entirely.
The main argument for this is that there are lots of anime licensing companies in America now, thus meaning that most shows are going to be licensed anyway. Therefore, why bother? Fansubbing's goal of promoting awareness of anime has been acheived so all fansubbers should pack up and retire.
Not all animes is well know, and not all good anime is licensed imediatly. If that were the case how come some Grade A titles such as naruto or One Piece have yet to be licensed? It doesn't take an expert to figure that they would both sell like hotcakes. Then there are the lesser known/subed shows which are less likely to be licensed. I personally don't see Sexy Commando being licensed any time soon. It's just to weird. Only certian groups are guilty of subbing shows that will be licensed.
Another view often bandied about in those forums is that the current crop of fansubbers are egomaniacal fame bandits bent on making a name for themselves by subbing the most popular show in the least possible time. Every feature of fansubs nowadays, from karaoke effects to the presence of logos and even group names/credits in the AVIs, are proof-positive of this, according to this viewpoint.
This is where the major problem is. Although not every group is guiltiy of it, alot of groups are just attention whores. Why in gods name do 13 groups have to sub Chrno Crusade? There is absolutly no reason. I know for a fact that only like 2 groups will finish it. The groups that *do* finish it will be the groups who aren't the attention whores who only sub soon to be licensed anime. Like I said before, Only a few groups are guilty of it. So don't be painting everyone with the same brush.
* Actually, the ANN forumers are more of the opinion that digital fansubs specifically are evil and irrelevant, but this is because they're mostly old-time VHS fansubbers who are, in my opinion, largely bitter that the whole "To get a fansub you must find a well-connected otaku and bow to him" system of their time has been replaced and that digital fansubbing has made many of them irrelevant. Nevertheless, they try to be consistent and therefore declared fansubs to be similarly irrelevant for the reasons mention in the main text.
That is more a problem of anime otaku arrogance. I hate people like that.
I was reading through the post in Anime News Network's forums and found that the majority of posters there were strongly convinced of one thing: fansubs are irrelevant*.
The main argument for this is that there are lots of anime licensing companies in America now, thus meaning that most shows are going to be licensed anyway. Therefore, why bother? Fansubbing's goal of promoting awareness of anime has been acheived so all fansubbers should pack up and retire.
Another view often bandied about in those forums is that the current crop of fansubbers are egomaniacal fame bandits bent on making a name for themselves by subbing the most popular show in the least possible time. Every feature of fansubs nowadays, from karaoke effects to the presence of logos and even group names/credits in the AVIs, are proof-positive of this, according to this viewpoint.
In short, there is a question of whether there should or should not be any more fansubs floating about not just in ANN, but sometimes here as well, as seen in threads like the Hacking and Su-Yu threads.
These aren't my actual opinions, by the way. I'm merely laying down the foundation for discussion on the topic. Two pence for your thoughts.
I believe that the original goal of "bringing anime to popularity in the United States" has been accomplished and all the old fansubbers are basically really happy with the current situation.
Currently, it is true there are a lot of EGO-subbing groups out there, who like to do excessive eye candy and flashy GROUP credits so that they can feel better about themselves. However, there are still groups out there who sit down and do the job right, and are actually really interested in bringing the Japanese anime viewing experience to English speakers.
Right now, I'm of the opinion that the people who are still working hard on anime, to bring the best quality (and not speed) possible fit into a variant of the original goal (that is to introduce new anime shows to people, especially people who are outside of Region 1). Fansubbers that promote official DVD sales in any region generally still follow some variant of the original principles. However, it's these egospeedsubbers that are giving fansubbing a bad rap (such as with the whole Urban Vision debacle).
My guess is that the ANN people will most likely be more familiar with the big ego groups who do this, and hence would see that as the majority of fansubbing nowadays.
To sum it up, the American anime industry no longer needs fansubs, though fansubs that promote sales of DVDs wouldn't hurt and may help in areas.
And on a sidenote, as anime becomes more prevalent in the states, it seems that certain localization teams aren't really up to their fullest. For example, it really only took about 25 minutes of someone's time to find all the bugs in the Hoshi no Koe R1 release (missing audio track, grammatical errors, typos, misnumberings). It seems as if in order to appeal to the mass market, certain localizations (such as HnK) were given less weight than others (Excel Saga).
chibikit
2003-12-23, 00:13
Need a little clarification on this bit, JAppi:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by chibikit
Another view often bandied about in those forums is that the current crop of fansubbers are egomaniacal fame bandits bent on making a name for themselves by subbing the most popular show in the least possible time. Every feature of fansubs nowadays, from karaoke effects to the presence of logos and even group names/credits in the AVIs, are proof-positive of this, according to this viewpoint.
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This is where the major problem is. Although not every group is guiltiy of it, alot of groups are just attention whores. Why in gods name do 13 groups have to sub Chrno Crusade? There is absolutly no reason. I know for a fact that only like 2 groups will finish it. The groups that *do* finish it will be the groups who aren't the attention whores who only sub soon to be licensed anime. Like I said before, Only a few groups are guilty of it. So don't be painting everyone with the same brush.
Can you make it a little clearer as to how this makes (or doesn't make) fansubs irrelevant? I think I see the general thrust of it, but I just figured it'd be best to let you say it yourself. Thanks.
Though, the people that are really bugged by it are the american companies that licsence the anime, since it is they who spend the money to higher translators and subbers, where as the japs dontFirstly, 'jap' is a racial slur, study WW2, and please stop using it. Secondly, the Japanese companies have to make the anime, which is a decidedly more expensive proposition than translation and localization.
In the thread that the original poster mention references asks people how important fansubs are to the fans. Only a couple of people brought up the point of fansubbers doing it for status. The thread later goes into the control of fansubs in the digital age compared to vhs fansubs.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4498&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0
Right now fansubs have moved from trying to build an audience for a particular show into letting people preview a show before buying it.
DekaMaster
2003-12-23, 02:28
ANN is a crappy site run by hypocrital idiots. Anything that goes on their people should ignore.
Kamui4356
2003-12-23, 02:53
Fansubs are still relevent for now. The only way to see a majority of anime in the US is on dvd. This is expensive. Eventually all the anime licensed in the US will be shown on tv in video on demand format. ADV is making headway in this area with their anime network. We will also see simulatinous releases in Japan and the US of a lot of series. Once these two things happen, funsubs will be largely irrelevant. For now they occupy a point in the anime world at the border between legitimate fan support and piracy.
relentlessflame
2003-12-23, 03:52
Fansubs are still relevent for now. The only way to see a majority of anime in the US is on dvd. This is expensive. Eventually all the anime licensed in the US will be shown on tv in video on demand format. ADV is making headway in this area with their anime network. We will also see simulatinous releases in Japan and the US of a lot of series. Once these two things happen, funsubs will be largely irrelevant. For now they occupy a point in the anime world at the border between legitimate fan support and piracy.
As long as the VoD system is available in Canada, reasonably priced, and of high quality, I'm there. (Of course, I also think it would be really smart of them to allow people to purchase and download the digital version also, like the online music stores, but we're not quite there yet.)
I still think, though, that fansubbing will have a relevance for those series that won't be licensed and distributed in North America, and also to those who live in other parts of the world. Since the demand will be lower, the "fansubbing for status" problem will diminish significantly, and it will be more similar to the "good old" VHS fansubbing days.
Today's fansubbing scene is rapidly approaching a sort of critical mass, I think. It's almost becoming too popular to avoid receiving legal attention...
Until anime is widely avaiable on Network & T.V stations besides CN and is uncut then I will stop downloading fansubs but until then I will continue. Like someone mentioned buying DVD anime is really expensive $20-30 a pop thats ridiculous some people just don't have that kind of money to spend away like that.
Now back on topic: Is fansubbing still relevant? Yes I believe so, Anime still isn't as widely known here in the U.S. and some other countries.
Fansubs are not going to become irrelevant for a long long time. Anime is a growing market, and there are vast sections of the world that it's hardly touched yet. Fansubs will always help its growth in such situations. While internet-based (so worldwide) streamed television availability including a subbed version could in the future eliminate the role of English fansubs as a previewing device of source for poor people regarding more popular titles, I can't see that happening any time soon, (or at least not in a way that almost any computer, regardless of OS is allowed access to), and moreover, there are still many titles that aren't likely to be picked up for wider distribution.
The widening of the market isn't even all that relevant to the "fansubs are simple piracy" argument, since the wider market likes things to be dubbed. And even if none of this were true, there would still always be the fact that digisubs are quicker to become available than commercial translations. People will always want to see things as soon as possible, other people will always want to provide them, and the first impressions that a community gets of a title through this early distribution will always count.
In any case, I'm currently predicting that the way we treat copyright is likely to change drastically within 20 years or so, (it's becoming increasingly obvious that the world is a very different place to the place it was when these laws were invented, when making a copy of anything took an organised operation and a lot of hard work), so certain notions will probably get turned on their heads.
Oh, and finally,
Firstly, 'jap' is a racial slur,
Just because something can be used as a racial slur, doesn't mean it automatically is any time someone uses it. "Jap" is in particular a very obvious way of innocently shortening "Japanese."
Kotonoha
2003-12-23, 06:49
[..................................]
Iron Monkey
2003-12-23, 07:27
* Actually, the ANN forumers are more of the opinion that digital fansubs specifically are evil and irrelevant, but this is because they're mostly old-time VHS fansubbers who are, in my opinion, largely bitter that the whole "To get a fansub you must find a well-connected otaku and bow to him" system of their time has been replaced and that digital fansubbing has made many of them irrelevant. Nevertheless, they try to be consistent and therefore declared fansubs to be similarly irrelevant for the reasons mention in the main text.
I'm gonna have to agree with this quote. Seems like everytime something from a niche market becomes more mainstream, you get the bitter people bitching about how it's sold out of whatever now. Damn bunch of whiners. But meh, I never did like ANN. I think they're just a bunch of hypocritcal dumbasses, acting like they are the be all of anime, and that their opinions are facts.
microlith
2003-12-23, 08:10
Two things...
buying DVD anime is really expensive $20-30 a pop thats ridiculous some people just don't have that kind of money to spend away like that.
That's why it's called a LUXURY. And if you had half a clue you'd realize that's as cheap as it gets these days.
Yeah right, as long as we can get this shit without paying a single cent, fansubs are very relevant. People just can't understand that downloading and watching anime are a right given to any human being out there. Why the hell should we stop doing it if it's our goddamn right???
I hope you're not serious. You're so full of shit it isn't even funny. Watching anime isn't a right. It's a privilege, a LUXURY. It costs money to make and costs money to get. If you can't pay the fee you don't deserve it because you are by no means entitled to the work of others for free.
If you do think that, then you really need to get a fucking clue.
Need a little clarification on this bit, JAppi:
Can you make it a little clearer as to how this makes (or doesn't make) fansubs irrelevant? I think I see the general thrust of it, but I just figured it'd be best to let you say it yourself. Thanks.
I'm sorry that my post was a little on the unclear side. I was trying to reflect that it was mostly the bad ego subbers who are ruining it for everyone. There are plenty of groups who are actually in fact doing an amazing job. Don't let the ego subbers annoy you.
If you can't pay the fee you don't deserve it because you are by no means entitled to the work of others for free.
If you want to argue in this direction, you really should be talking purely in terms of the need to maintain a fair system for rewarding the creators of artistic works for their creations and the like. The way you've written that, it suggests that having money is what makes you a deserving person, the implication being that poor people are also bad people who don't deserve luxuries. Indeed luxuries which, once created once, can be recreated at negligable cost. The monetary system is a practical economic tool for facilitating a productive society, it shouldn't be mistaken for a means to assign worthiness.
Seifer_us
2003-12-23, 08:46
I myself, think that fansubbing is still quite relevant. There will always be people that abuse the privilege of fansubbing, but I highly doubt that a show like "Hajime no Ippo" would have been licensed had it not been for it's digital counterpart. Personally, I think that the best situation would be if there was only one group subbing any one show at any given time and that other groups would concentrate on other shows that haven't had any exposure. BUT, we all know that will never happen, because EVERYONE wants to get their name on the newest shows. Anyway, I'm not going to complain about it anymore because there will always be good and bad subbers. Oh well, a least a big kudos goes out from me to the groups that dare to take on the less popular and older stuff in an effort to raise awareness.
Kotonoha
2003-12-23, 08:53
[.........................]
If you want to argue in this direction, you really should be talking purely in terms of the need to maintain a fair system for rewarding the creators of artistic works for their creations and the like. The way you've written that, it suggests that having money is what makes you a deserving person, the implication being that poor people are also bad people who don't deserve luxuries. The monetary system is a practical economic tool for facilitating a productive society, it shouldn't be mistaken for a means to assign worthiness.
Actually, money is a way of representing work and the deservingness for goods. If you are a poor person who doesn't work you don't deserve anime because you don't have any money. Meaning that since you don't have any money you have not put in the work earlier, so therefore you do not need their anime. How is what you own a status symbol? He talks nothing about status and all that bullshit. You know you're full of crap.
Actually, money is a way of representing work and the deservingness for goods. If you are a poor person who doesn't work you don't deserve anime because you don't have any money. Meaning that since you don't have any money you have not put in the work earlier, so therefore you do not need their anime.
No, money can not be an accurate measure of hard work, because there are factors other than how hard you work that drastically affect how much money you have. Money is a means of motivating hard work. It's a very simple fact that even you should be able to understand, the son of a multi-millionaire is likely to have more money that the sixth son of a Ghanain subsistence farmer. Do you really think that means the son of the millionaire has worked harder?
You know you're full of crap.
You know, I'm getting a bit tired of being insulted by you simply because you're not intelligent enough to understand the conversations I participate in. Why don't you stick to conversations at your own intellectual level, instead of ignorantly making bizarre implied statements like "people in Africa don't do any work, while us in America do loads, you can tell by how much more money we've got."
Seriously. You have to know your own limitations, that's how you improve yourself. Stop reacting as if you understand what's going on and pay attention to the details of what is being said, you might learn something.
What's funny is that Jappi is Canadian and when did Ghana come into this conversation.
That's why it's called a LUXURY. And if you had half a clue you'd realize that's as cheap as it gets these days.
Easy for you to say you live in Japan. I have bills to pay so I don't always have enough money to buy anime on DVD. I would gladly stop dl fansubs if anime were on regular tv stations like in Japan. :)
DrWho2002
2003-12-23, 15:49
Piracy is still piracy no matter how veiled your excuses are.
StarCreator
2003-12-23, 15:50
The cost of living in Japan, if you haven't heard, is notoriously ridiculously high. If you can't afford the already dirt-cheap DVDs being released in the US, you wouldn't survive a day living in Japan.
I tend to think that fansubs are indeed not useful anymore, and due to the selfishness of most of the English-speaking portions of the world, are doing far more damage than good to the financial health of the industry. I don't even download fansubs anymore, I just work on a few of them, and I don't see the point in doing shows like Gunslinger Girl that are almost certain to be coming out in R1 DVD in the next year or two.
As HnK, very few of what we've done has been announced as licensed, and we'd like to see more of it get commercial releases. Fansubs were originally to build public interest in obscure shows which companies might pass on otherwise, and I like to think that we're doing the same thing with the otherwise untouched series that we do. I don't claim that it's right or that we're justified in doing so. We're doing this because we want to see these shows subbed and maybe get some other people interested in them as well.
For a long time, I've found it ridiculous that there are series that everyone already knows about already, yet 26 groups or some other ridiculous number jump on it right away, even though it requires no promotion.
I'm a little annoyed that once again, this argument degenerated to groundless personal insults. Insulting the intelligence of another person who simply holds an opposite viewpoint doesn't help you at all, and speaks volumes about your own personality.
I do have a lot of respect for HnK because of the series they choose to sub, (as well as a few of them being genuine "hidden gems"), though in my experience claims along the lines of "piracy is hurting the industry" are almost always unproven and usually wrong.
What's funny is that Jappi is Canadian and when did Ghana come into this conversation.
Well, there's no difference between America and Canada for the purposes of the argument, either way they're rich countries. Ghana is just a random poor country that I picked out of thin air to illustrate the point.
I think some of Canadians or Americans will disagree with you on that point.
I only said that there's no difference between America and Canada for the purposes of the argument, because the only relevant quality is being a wealthier country than most, and both of them fit that criterion.
I read most of the post here and I don't know what postition I will chose on the subject. I live in America and I have a hard time buying good Anime. There are mags that review them but not enough. So most of the time I buy anime on a coin flip, since I don't know if they are good or not. I see why some people thing it is useless to fansub shows like Gunslinger Girl and R.O.D TV. Truthfully I didn't know what R.O.D was, I know that the ova was good but I never actually saw it. Once I started to watch R.O.D TV I wanted to watch the OVa, and I did.
Most of the shows that I download from here I will eventually buy, if they bring it to the states that is. For the most part I will but them to get extras on the DVD. The pretty, pretty picture on the cover doesn't hurt either. :)
But fansubbing is piracy no matter how you spin it. I'm pretty sure that it doesn't cut into the company profit too much. If anything it gets the word out on that particular anime and help sells a little. Thats what I think at least.
DrWho2002
2003-12-23, 17:41
If piracy wasn't a big deal, then people like Jerry Chu from Bandai wouldn't be going to fansub channels and telling them to please stop subbing shows Bandai has licensed. (but he has before with GitS-SAC and Gundam Seed) so it's a bigger deal than most people think. Most people are too selfish though to care.
Kamui4356
2003-12-23, 18:09
If piracy wasn't a big deal, then people like Jerry Chu from Bandai wouldn't be going to fansub channels and telling them to please stop subbing shows Bandai has licensed. (but he has before with GitS-SAC and Gundam Seed) so it's a bigger deal than most people think. Most people are too selfish though to care.
How big a deal a fansub is depends on the series in question. For GITS: SAC and Gundam seed Bandai will have no problems marketing them in the US on their own. Fansubs can only hurt sales. For a series Like Stellvia, fansubs will help it's sales when it's finally licensed in the US. It doesn't have a big name title so a lot of people would pass by it at the video store except for a friend of theirs who already saw it fansubbed and said it was good. For really bad series, fansubs will hurt sales too, but those series shouldn't have been licensed in the first place.
If piracy wasn't a big deal, then people like Jerry Chu from Bandai wouldn't be going to fansub channels and telling them to please stop subbing shows Bandai has licensed. (but he has before with GitS-SAC and Gundam Seed) so it's a bigger deal than most people think. Most people are too selfish though to care.
I though that most fansub groups stop fansubbing if they get asked by the companys. Am I wrong?
NoSanninWa
2003-12-23, 18:23
Absolutely right. Most groups stop subbing if the companies ask them too. (Except for the ones that start up when the anime is licensed, just to finish the subbing. I suspect that some of the members of these groups are the same people with different pseudonyms, but I couldn't prove it.)
However... That is not the point! The point is that people shouldn't sub the shows that they know are going to be licensed! For instance, everyone knows that everything Gundam is licensed by Bandai. It was never in question that someone was going to license GitS:SAC. We consider these things to be fair game until the company announces the license, but the fansubbers are making themselves irrelevant by subbing these shows.
Fansubbers should concentrate on the shows that we doubt anyone will ever license like Princess Tutu or YamiBou, or else on shows that have been out for years without being licensed like Condor Hero or Ayatsuri Sakon. When these shows are subbed fansubbers are adding something vital that the licensing companies fail at. If only more fansubbers thought this way, noone would even ask if they are still relevant.
Fansubs can only hurt sales.
Don't be an idiot. I would never have bought the Haibane Renmei DVDs if I didn't know what I was getting. Downloading the first few episodes of an anime will give me a good idea of whether I like it or not, and make me feel secure enough with this knowledge to splurge $30 on a fragile video disc.
Well I can't really say much about the licensing thingy since we don't have that much anime here (pokemon=anime? >>';; haha whatever). But when Trigun got licensed here (world news, I was actually shocked they didn't say anything about it on cnn) I stopped downloading right away and got the dvds.
I can say I'm not a rich snob or whatever, but 25 euro for 4 episodes is acceptable in my eyes. I understand some people can't buy every single serie they want, that's just though luck really. It's the same with my bw limit I guess, there's so much anime I wanna download, but I just can't cause of the limit. x)
Learn to live with it I'd say.
I'm also a little annoyed with a shitload of groups doing the same serie and at the same time seeing a shortage of japanese translators everywhere.
Hm, I suppose if everyone would stop fansubbing now, there wouldn't much left of animesuki, would there? :p
I think this would all be solved if companies would have one or two episodes of each series downloadable from their own servers. Doesn't need to be great quality, just enough to give everyone a taste of the series. Or they can also make them public domain so other places can serve them. thus places like Animesuki could serve legit digital subbed episodes. That way, everyone wins. Digital subs will be endorsed by the companies, and we can preview series and see what we'd like. And since it's only a few episodes, it isn't enough to replace dvds.
Of course, we atleast have Newtype, so it's not impossible to preview.
For me personally, I've always used fansubs to see what I'd like to buy. I usually watch any episodes I can get of unlicensed fansubs. As for licensed anime on fansub, I have downloaded some, but I try and only download one or two. Just enough to get a feel of the series and see if I want to buy it. That's how I realized I liked Hand Maid May, GTO, Amazing Nurse Nanako, Full Metal Panic, and Tenchi Muyo. Which, by the way, I have bought all of those.
StarCreator
2003-12-24, 01:56
There are many ways to get a preview. Online rental services, and even some brick-and-mortar rental shops will stock anime. Some anime shops around here will have some series running at all times, and I've even had the owner put on something I wanted to see that I was on the fence on buying. And of course, the online download of eps has been done - AN provided the first episode of Risky Safety in both English dubbed and subtitled formats for a time. Not to mention the preview discs on Newtype and the ones given out at conventions.
There are MANY ways to get a preview of shows without ever touching a fansub.
Enragin_Angel
2003-12-24, 02:17
Lotta places I know that rent out subbed anime actually rent out digisubs put on vhs or vcd.
I was lookin at my cable service packages...they have anime on demand now. Don't know if this news is real old but for those who don't know...maybe you can turn to this. Also, for a monthly fee, you can buy TV Japan from your cable company. ($24.95/month in my area) I'm not sure about the programming, but I'm sure they have some anime and possibly brand spanking new anime just like the Japanese people watch (and pay for) everyday
JediNight
2003-12-24, 02:35
One thing to keep in mind is that ANN is really anti-fansubs to begin with, so most of what they say can be taken with a grain of salt. However they are true in part with that post. There are alot of ego-subber groups over the past year or so that are really giving fansubbing in general a bad name.
As far as flashy effects go, I think some of the time the groups are actually oblivious to what they are doing -- they just think it looks really cool and are happy they could do it, so they toss it in... without realizing that it makes them look really arrogant or what-have-you.
I think SFX are fine as long as you blend them as well as possible with the original video. Examples: AE/EF Sekai no Senki OP, AE/Keep Onegai Twins, Seed-Fansubs Gundam Seed OP3/4, etc. Examples of what not to do would be most of AJs OPs (sorry to poke a dead horse, but its true) and more recently Aone's ROD TV I've pointed out to them that, while it is indeed a cute effect, it really doesn't fit or belong in the OP and makes them look like they are trying to put themselves equal or above the makers of the anime which I know they weren't intending to.
EvoSpace
2003-12-24, 05:53
Also, for a monthly fee, you can buy TV Japan from your cable company. ($24.95/month in my area) I'm not sure about the programming, but I'm sure they have some anime and possibly brand spanking new anime just like the Japanese people watch (and pay for) everyday
It's NHK (mostly news and educational crap).
As for fansubbing, I think it still has a purpose. Yeah probably 90% of the people gets spoiled, but there'll still be respectable people who'll realize why fansubs do exist and learn about how the industry works. I personally have been buying more DVDs since I got involved with the production of fansubbing and downloading less. In that respect, I love how this site is structured. It makes people aware of the licensing factor.
Since the legal issue is about the video, not the fansub itself, I want to push everyone to buy the R2 DVDs if I could, but of course it doesn't come with the translations. However once the R1 DVDs out, there's no expection. It's less than half the price of R2 DVDs too! People downloading digital fansubs means they have an internet connection to visit online stores, so I hate it when people makes excuses saying it's not available in their country. (I don't know if this was relevant to the topic, but it was just on my head ^^;
Online rental services, and even some brick-and-mortar rental shops will stock anime. Some anime shops around here will have some series running at all times, and I've even had the owner put on something I wanted to see that I was on the fence on buying.
Though thinking about that too much raises further questions about the USA-centric nature of the debate; while it's practical to buy titles from overseas, as long as you have access to a credit card and enough basic knowhow to bypass region coding and NSTC/PAL issues, it's not really practical to rent titles from overseas.
StarCreator
2003-12-24, 07:15
Hey, I'd love to get NHK here, but I don't think DirecTV carries it (though admittedly I haven't checked with them about that). Among other favorites of mine, NHK is currently airing Twin Spica and did air Juuni Kokki. =P
StarCreator
2003-12-24, 07:19
Though thinking about that too much raises further questions about the USA-centric nature of the debate; while it's practical to buy titles from overseas, as long as you have access to a credit card and enough basic knowhow to bypass region coding and NSTC/PAL issues, it's not really practical to rent titles from overseas.
Living in the US myself, I can't really say anything about overseas. And indeed, the licensing of material is limited to the US as well, with any European releases being not nearly as frequent. Almost all the Europeans I know do import english DVD releases from other countries, but I assume fansubs would be the easiest way for them to see things first.
I wonder why there aren't more fansub groups based entirely in Europe then...
Though thinking about that too much raises further questions about the USA-centric nature of the debate; while it's practical to buy titles from overseas, as long as you have access to a credit card and enough basic knowhow to bypass region coding and NSTC/PAL issues, it's not really practical to rent titles from overseas.
I live overseas, and have imported anime, so I can talk about it from experience. ;)
NTSC/PAL isn't a big issue nowadays. At least in my country (Brazil), most TVs sold support both systems. Region coding, however, can easily be an issue for the average user, it takes quite a bit of research to find a decent region-free DVD Player.
Renting from an online service is probably a bad idea. Shipping costs would be exorbitant, and I'm unsure customs would allow it to be done at all.
Buying imported anime is an option, thought it's an extreme luxury. You think it's expensive in the US? It gets 2-3 more expensive when it gets here, between shipping and taxes. Meaning you must be very very picky on what you're going to buy.
On the bright side, there's a company around here that started licensing a few anime titles and selling DVDs at a very affordable price. They're really slow with their releases, but I can live with that. ;)
[]s Badaro
Living in the US myself, I can't really say anything about overseas. And indeed, the licensing of material is limited to the US as well, with any European releases being not nearly as frequent. Almost all the Europeans I know do import english DVD releases from other countries, but I assume fansubs would be the easiest way for them to see things first.
I wonder why there aren't more fansub groups based entirely in Europe then...
Because, using English for those fansubs is impossible, everyone would see them as "american" fansubs anyway and the group would have to cease releasing a title if it got licensed in the US. And translating into a shitload of European languages (french, spanish, dutch, german, finnish, swedish, etc) isn't really that convenient either so most Europeans will just start fansubbing into English to save a lot of trouble. A lot of people aren't really interested in fansubs with their own language anyway, I still prefer English over Dutch.
Starlord
2003-12-25, 04:24
well i prefer Japanisch Language
in no other Language the Bad people sounds so dam Evil :-)
and i want the english subs so i dont lose my English :D
It's still quite a revelant aspect of fandom. One of the purposes has been fulfilled but the other will always be ongoing. There is a place for fansubbers to bring series that never would be brought out over here. I don't see a large amount of Giant Robot series being released in the states or sports or even dramas. Fansubbers need to fill that niche that domestic companies aren't willing to fill so easily.
without fansubs I would never have gotten into anime and my life would be an empty shell of existence...
Plus I wouldn't have bought my 2 RX-7's :)
MrProsser
2003-12-25, 12:00
[QUOTE=chibikit]I was reading through the post in Anime News Network's forums and found that the majority of posters there were strongly convinced of one thing: fansubs are irrelevant*.
I have to say fansubs are certainly still relevant. Aside from letting me view series that are never licensed (at least for R1) they allow me to decide whether I actually would buy a series once it is licensed. Unlike a person living in Japan I simply don't have the luxury of seeing these programs when they are airing to make the decision to buy, so fansubs mainly fill the role of watching them on television for me, and if it is enjoyable I go and buy the DVD's (not always waiting for the R1's either, after seeing Saishuu Heiki Kanojo I picked up the R2's) Without fansubs I would not buy nearly as much as I do now because I won't buy anime because I liked what I read on the back of the box. I would like to be able to see something before buying just like anyone in Japan could.
My god I hate these sorts of topics.
First off, how relevant fansubs are to you depend on factors such as language, age, income and accessability )weather its though credit cards or brick-and-mortar stores). When you know these, you figure out weather its justifiable FOR YOU. The anime industry isn't going to hell, but it certianly dos need support from those who can afford it.
And no, no one can always act within the best interest for the industry, especially the western one, because all fans are divided into stupid sub categories because their stupid tastes blind each other from the fact that they arne't liked from the rest of the world.
Now, that wouldn't be a bad thing, if people weren't constantly trying to push this as some kind of "art form". It's art in itself, not a new type of art damnit.
If you want people to see new things, hows about dropping elitist attitudes and stuff? If you don't want people seeing stuff, grow up and ignore people instead of turning your nose up at them.
Chances of this happening? None, but I thought I may as well try.
There are many ways to get a preview. Online rental services, and even some brick-and-mortar rental shops will stock anime.
I'm glad you have the benefit of being able to own a credit card, and are privileged to be living in an area where nearby video rental stores stock Haibane Renmei.
Your argument is void.
LordBrian
2003-12-25, 17:01
So the fact that you're not old enough to own a credit card is a valid reason to download fansubs? In that case, I guess you're allowed to steal beer and sneak into R-rated movies as well. Or whatever. If any argument is void (or devoid of logic) it would be yours.
My god I hate these sorts of topics.
First off, how relevant fansubs are to you depend on factors such as language, age, income and accessability )weather its though credit cards or brick-and-mortar stores). When you know these, you figure out weather its justifiable FOR YOU. The anime industry isn't going to hell, but it certianly dos need support from those who can afford it.
And no, no one can always act within the best interest for the industry, especially the western one, because all fans are divided into stupid sub categories because their stupid tastes blind each other from the fact that they arne't liked from the rest of the world.
Now, that wouldn't be a bad thing, if people weren't constantly trying to push this as some kind of "art form". It's art in itself, not a new type of art damnit.
If you want people to see new things, hows about dropping elitist attitudes and stuff? If you don't want people seeing stuff, grow up and ignore people instead of turning your nose up at them.
Chances of this happening? None, but I thought I may as well try.
nods head, I agree finally someone whos actually making sense. It all depends on YOU if you find fansubs revelant or not. Only YOU can make that choice.
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Worldestroyer
2003-12-25, 18:45
Fansubs are still relevent. Lets put it this way, lets say they stoped fansubbing. So series start appearing on the shelves in bestbuy etc., and you as a consumer whom has never seen or heard of this series (due to no fansubbing) look at the back of the case and read the discription. Of course all anime DVD discriptions sound stupid.
For example, "onegai Teacher .aka. Please teacher" has this as a discripiton for the first dvd, and i quote "Kei Kusangai isn't your typical 15 year old high school student. He's actually an 18 year old with a rare disorder thats put him into a what he calls a "standstill". When he was younger, this disorder left him in a deep coma which stunted his growth for the next three years! Mizuho Kazami isn't your typical teacher either. She's actually an alien sent by the Galazy Federation to oberserve the earth! As the sole human being with knowledge of Ms. Kazami's secret, Kei must marry the alien?! Homework, dating, and a gorgeous wife - going to school has never been quite this fun!" (ok this is actually a decent discription, but you get my point)
If you were walking through the iles of a best buy and you had a choice between something you have never seen, and has a corny discription, or rather american pie 2 which you have seen. you would go with what you have seen. They need fansubs, to promote the dvd's. People only buy the dvd's because they enjoy the sub's. It's a cycle
It worked in the 90's before fansubbing went digital.
chibikit
2003-12-25, 20:51
People downloading digital fansubs means they have an internet connection to visit online stores, so I hate it when people makes excuses saying it's not available in their country. (I don't know if this was relevant to the topic, but it was just on my head ^^;
Yes, if you download fansubs it is logical that you would be able to visit online stores but that isn't the only factor that affects availability. There is the question of you actually being able to pay in these stores (by cheque, credit card or what-have-you - these options are not always available to the person or store in question). There is the question of whether you can get DVD player for the relevant Region or get one that doesn't care for Regions. And then there's the problem of damn bloody Customs - a particularly thorny problem for Asian countries and the UK (if I remember correctly), especially if you're buying a lot at one time.
In other words, it's not as simple as "Oh, a fansub leecher can go to an online store and buy." In fact, until someone makes it available in a particular nation, I would say that fansubs are still a relevant (if not completely legal) way to see anime for people in that nation.
Tabiree makes sense: whether or not fansubs are relevant is a personal question dependant on where you are and what you think of the whole licensing and DVD Region systems. No one can impose their view of it on anyone else and they shouldn't be trying. However, that is what opponents of fansubbing are trying to do to everyone in the world with the excuse that it hurts the anime licensing industry in one particular nation. Something about that rankles me so that's why I posted this topic up in the first place, just to get an idea of what everyone thinks.
People have different reasons for not liking fansubs, so to only say they don't like them because it hurts the American licensing industry is not totally true. Also alot of companies know about the fansubs of their shows, but chose to let them continue until that show is announced as licensed. The problem lies in that there is no way to stop the American leecher from downloading a series so it is easier to stop it everyone.
Iron Monkey
2003-12-25, 23:29
Yup, I'm also agreeing with the fact that whether or not it is relevant is based on personal opinions/morales/beliefs (whatever). To me, they are still very relevant, and judging from how many people d/l it these days, it seems I'm not the only one to think that. Hell, I'm willing to be every single member of this board still d/l's it. As long as you have, then it's still relevant to you. Simple as that.
StarCreator
2003-12-25, 23:37
method - I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with that statement, but whenever a representative of any company has been asked about the subject, their response is always the same - fansubs of titles they have licensed are never tolerated, and they will do everything in their power to bring it to a stop (trying not to resort to legal means, but they will go that far). Titles not announced are probably due to contractual obligations and they are probably counting the days until they can bring to a stop what could easily become rampant piracy of the product that they depend on for profit.
No company depends on fansubs for promotion anymore. Anime isn't the unknown niche it used to be.
ashibaka - I like how you deleted the other 4 or 5 methods of previewing anime from my quote. Those didn't require credit cards or vast amounts of money, either. Even if they did cost money, it probably costs less than the internet access you're using to read this message right now.
method - I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with that statement, but whenever a representative of any company has been asked about the subject, their response is always the same - fansubs of titles they have licensed are never tolerated, and they will do everything in their power to bring it to a stop (trying not to resort to legal means, but they will go that far). Titles not announced are probably due to contractual obligations and they are probably counting the days until they can bring to a stop what could easily become rampant piracy of the product that they depend on for profit.
No company depends on fansubs for promotion anymore. Anime isn't the unknown niche it used to be.
ashibaka - I like how you deleted the other 4 or 5 methods of previewing anime from my quote. Those didn't require credit cards or vast amounts of money, either. Even if they did cost money, it probably costs less than the internet access you're using to read this message right now.
Sorry about that. When I was writing that I was thinking about Bandai in particular. As we all know they own all the rights to gundam, but let people to continue to fansub them. Another thing to think about companies like wait until convention season. So they could turn a blind eye until then.
Urikkiru
2003-12-26, 05:14
I've spent some time thinking about this problem. Really, the issue is people not ever buying the anime they download via fansubs. There are two sides.
Firstly, there's the companies that make/license the anime. They want and need to be compensated for their work. It's not like great anime grows on trees right? A lot of time/effort goes into it, and costs money. So, we need people to buy anime when it's out on R1 dvd.
However, there is then the Anime that either never, ever gets released in the US, or the anime that when it does get released, the US company botches it completely. Bugs in the DVD quality, only providing the anime dubbed, and other such things have made me stay away from buying more than 1 anime DVD release in question. It's a real kicker to realize the fansub you have is far superior to the legit localized release you just bought, you know? This tends to argue that you should buy it anyway, but keep your fansubs around for when you actually watch it.
There is of course the third issue. Most often, the localized(ie. US, R1 release) is far, far behind that what's current. Hence, having to wait a really long time for those DVD's to come out. Some people find this kind of hard to wait for, since the US distributors can be very, very slow in some cases. It takes months for a single volume of Anime to come out, and be ready for sale, whereas the Fansub is often available within days of the episode being aired in Japan. Also, US companies( CN anyone, DBZ? ) Have been known to alter the release to their tastes also. Bleh.
Really, I don't see an easy solution to this issue. If it wasn't for fansubs, I wouldn't even *know* about anime really. I'm not an old school fan either, so my discovery of this genre is extremely new. As such, I wouldn't be buying any anime right now, and planning to buy even more later on, finances permitting, were it not for fansubs. I think you have to decide for yourself really. The laws will be the laws, and the actions of the companies that make/distribute anime will be what they will be. Support them as you see fit, and hopefully all will be well.
However, if you don't, and decide to steal all your anime... well, it might not stick around neh? Or at least, not in the same quality that you have become accustomed.
PS: It should also be noted that there has been a fair amount of anime that had promise/interest in the first few episodes, even the first half of the series. However, at the end, if I had bought it based only on a few episodes, I would have been returning it entirely due to the ending. This is another great part of fansubs. I get to *see* what I'm going to buy. Whether various corporations/copyright laws are happy about this, is somewhat irrelevant to me in this regard. I work hard for my money, and I like to spend it wisely. Not on junk.
Just my 2 coppers.
LordBrian
2003-12-26, 08:16
This is another great part of fansubs. I get to *see* what I'm going to buy. Whether various corporations/copyright laws are happy about this
You want to be an informed consumer? I think you're in violation of the DMCA. The Feds will be over shortly.
lomeando
2003-12-26, 11:51
Fansubbing is still relevant to the extent that it brings an audience to something new and different. Originally, anime was something exceptional. The only thing close to it was American bastardizations of it like Robo Tech. Nowadays there are lots of commercial releases, but they tend to stick with "safe" shows like Gundam or GiTS or Yet Another Romantic Comedy or the next Dragonball Z. And surely from a business perspective this is the proper thing to do.
Fansubs are relevant precisely to the degree that they can provide something that can NOT be justified by a profit motive. And that means subbing old gems that your average fan knows nothing about, or new shows that are so far outside the mainstream as to be largely ignored.
That's why my group, Anime-Kissaten, is focusing on older shows like Hunter X Hunter, which is now around 4 years old. We'd love to do even older stuff if we had the translators, like Ninja Senshi Hiei. I doubt most of you have ever heard of this show, but I'm not going to fork out the money for the R2's without a dedicated translator.
That's why I work for Anime-Fansubs subbing Twin Spica, a new show I constantly have to explain to people, because they've never heard of it. One for which at least the first several weeks after it started we were the only group subbing it.
That's why I love groups like Live-eviL that sub shows like Yawara and Condor Hero. I timed and edited some Condor Hero scripts for another group even before that, but we couldn't find a reliable translator. I'm glad another group could. Or that Hikari no Kiseki could bring us shows like Princess Tutu. I was deeply disappointed that Kindaichi stopped being subbed.
And to some extent these things are working. I was quite and pleasantly surprised when shows like Mahou Yuugi and Super GALS! were licensed, both of which seemed well outside the normal realm of licensed fare. And potentially another show I wanted to sub, though I've only heard rumors about that one. This is made possible precisely because we've built up an environment where the risk of such a production is manageable to these businesses.
Yes, it pains me that there are 18 different Naruto groups, yet I'm short of translators. But that's what the mass market is all about: there's a surplus of fans for those shows. There's no glory in being one of them. It is commodity. Fansubs should be providing something that is rare and valuable to individuals, not to a market. Businesses can address market needs quite efficiently.
So the fact that you're not old enough to own a credit card is a valid reason to download fansubs? In that case, I guess you're allowed to steal beer and sneak into R-rated movies as well.
That's usually called a straw man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html). How old are you?
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/buttons/reputation.gif
LordBrian
2003-12-26, 17:01
My age is as irrelevant to the argument as yours is, which is the point I was trying to make (but good job ignoring that point). I'm not making up some completely irrelevant situation with which to compare your lack of a credit card to -- the analogy I made is completely legit, and therefore is not a strawman argument.
However, let's set that aside for now. Let me ask another (obviously unrelated) question: exactly how do you pay for your Internet connection? You either A) have your parents/guardians pay for it, B) pay for it yourself, or C) get it through school. The first two pretty much depend on the fact that someone in your household has a credit card, and thus can pay for anime over the Internet -- unless you pay your ISP by check or something, in which case you can mail the check to the anime places as well. If your situation is C, which I doubt, then you fall into the category of a poor college student smart enough not to have a credit card, and not someone just too young to own one.
At any rate, my point is that whether or not you personally have a credit card, you can get the necessary funds -- and the means by which to pay them -- from somewhere. Saying you're too young to have one is misleading. As with my argument before, if you're too young to pay for things over the Internet, how are you paying for the Internet connection in the first place?
I still maintain that it is an utterly ridiculous argument to say you are too young to order over the Internet in any way, shape or form -- especially when many reputable places (http://www.rightstuf.com/customer/customer.shtml#payment) accept alternate forms of payment such as checks and money orders, of which the latter is usually easily obtainable at post offices.
you can get the necessary funds -- and the means by which to pay them -- from somewhere
OK, so I download fansubs, then if I like an anime I will appropriate the necessary funds and buy or rent the DVDs. But I don't just throw money around to test things out, when there is a free (even if slightly illegal) alternative. I don't buy a band's CD if I haven't first heard them on the radio.
StarCreator
2003-12-27, 18:16
Sorry about that. When I was writing that I was thinking about Bandai in particular. As we all know they own all the rights to gundam, but let people to continue to fansub them. Another thing to think about companies like wait until convention season. So they could turn a blind eye until then.
Bandai's a prime example of my reasoning - when they were able to announce the SEED license finally, Jerry himself visited the people that were subbing it to tell them to stop. Before they could announce it (again, perhaps licensing restriction or other complications delay this), they really didn't have the grounds to do so, but considering that they pretty much release every Gundam in existance, it would be common sense never to start subbing any Gundam in the first place. There's no franchise more pointless to fansub than Gundam.
People knew that Seed was licensed in June IIRC. Richard Cox let it slip that Ocean had already started casting roles for Seed. When asked for comments Jerry told people to wait till Otakon for official announcement. Why Otakon you ask? Simple T.M. Revolution was booked to perform a concert there. Since Bandai of America is a subsidiary of Bandai of Japan, they already own the rights to the gundam franschise. Considering that Bandai
Thelastguardian
2003-12-27, 21:55
isnt the number of people in both mirc channels and bt sites be enough to prove the existance/relevancy of fansubbing?
Thelastguardian: That depends on what it's relevant to. What most people argue is that Fansubs are the only way to promote and sell a series, where as others disagree. The ammount of bots and such do not prove anything, apart from how many people want what, in what condition, and for what price, that being free. You can't use that to prove anything simply because you haven't garnerd each and every single persons opinions on the subject.
And of course we know fansubbing exists.
NinjaServ
2003-12-28, 00:01
To be honest, I don't buy an anime I have not seen at least few eps of it. I find watching it on fansub first better than downloading bootlegs to find out what shows are good ;)
Quiddity
2004-01-07, 21:32
Sadly I think fansubs have moved far from their original purpose and have lost a lot of luster with me. The Chrno Crusade thing is a perfect example of how absurd the situation has become, where over a dozen different groups are releasing the same show and completely ignoring the stuff that the fansub was created for, the shows like Space Runaway Ideon or Galaxy Express 999 TV that will never be licensed and released in America. Instead we get 12 different versions of a show that'll be over here in a year or two anyway. Kudos to Anime-Kissaten and the like who are dedicated to the older stuff but unfortunately it seems to me that most groups are the Anime Junkies type who are obsessed with getting a fansub out as quick as possible to make themselves more popular in the community, sometimes sacrificing a proper translation to do that.
Now, back to studying my Japanese so I can eventually found my own fansub group to release the above mentioned classics :P
complich8
2004-01-08, 01:23
I view fansubbing like I view libraries -- mostly because I only tend to watch most things once.
I'll download a digisub and watch it. I personally keep it around for friends to get, just as a courtesy to the network. But I download because I enjoy it, once.
I can't justify spending $120ish to buy 12 hours of stuff that I'm likely only going to view once. Just like I don't buy every book I read, because I have a library and friends who have copies of the book. If I really like a series or a movie or something I see fansubbed, I'll get the DVDs. If I really like a book and think it has any reread value at all, I'll buy it (which is why I own a growing collection of books as well as a growing collection of dvds).
Fundamentally this idea disagrees with the whole concept of copyright as we have it right now, and is also rather distorted by the fact that digital media can be virtually effortlessly perfectly copied thousands or hundreds of thousands of times in practice with no real problems, meaning that the availability of an individual copy becomes the availability of as many copies as you want, with no real inconvenience. Libraries buy a copy (legally) and can only let one person at a time use it. So while a large number of people CAN get the book from the library, it's not a guaranteed quick fix like digital content is. This is the clash between digitization of content and the concept that information should be made available without barriers to entry, and I think on a global level we'll see our lawmakers and content creators struggling with this bear a LOT more in the next decade or so.
I think that eventually most content will be so globally in-demand that it'll just be simulcast in multiple languages, paid for in micropayments and with advertisement and as premiums on your cable or satellite tv bill. When and if that happens, fansubbing won't be relevant to anyone for any reason anymore, since global distribution will be controlled by the producers via tv broadcasts with localizations as necessary to begin with. Stuff might someday actually be localized as it's written, maybe even automatically by computers ... who knows.
But until I can turn on my TV, change to channel 4980 and see the anime du jour, or news broadcast of norway, or italian TV show, or whatever, airing in my language at the same time it's airing in it's native language, I will still personally view fansubbing as a perfectly relevant practice.
relentlessflame
2004-01-08, 02:30
I agree with what complich8 is saying. I, personally, am looking forward to the day where all global media (music, movies, anime, etc.) is made accessible by the publishers to everyone around the world on-demand. I'm believe this will happen in my lifetime, as we are already on a unescapable path towards it. As complich8 said, the current copyright and intellectual property concepts are not adequate in this digital age, and it is only a matter of time (and after a great deal of false attempts, I'm sure) that people will figure out how it should really work.
Ultimately, the relevancy of fansubs today comes down to a simple question: how much is it worth to you? The main problem with fansubs in today's environment, at least from the copyright holder/publishers' perspective, is that it is far too easy for us; it's too easy to get, too easy to copy, too easy to distribute. We don't *deserve* free anime for any reason; the creators deserve to be compensated for their hard work and intellectual property. This is not to diminish all the efforts of all of the fansubs groups who devote large portions of their lives to providing this amazing service to a largely unappreciative audience. However, we must remember that people's livelihoods depend on this stuff, and so attempts to rationalize our actions too heavily ultimately should result in some level of guilt.
As complich8 says, the real problem with anime distribution in North America is the method. People don't want to buy DVDs unless it's something they really want to watch over and over, and the anime that ends up on TV here is not what many fans want (late, edited, and (often poorly) dubbed). As the fansub community has proved, the digital distribution of subbed anime appeals to a fairly large audience, and can happen quickly, easily, and at relatively low cost. There's a legitimate market here, and it is only a matter of time before the anime creators and publishers clue in. At that time, we can expect the fansub community to fracture - part of the community will move underground (into the world of pirated movies, software, and games), and another part will remain on the surface to continue working on the older/less popular/more obscure stuff.
Anyways, fansubbing will remain relevant, in some way, as long as there is interesting and entertaining media facing language and distribution barriers. But, today's fansub community should be prepared to accept the day when today's relatively easy, convenient, and free setup will have to change. I believe that it will happen sooner than we might think...
JediNight
2004-01-08, 04:08
Sadly I think fansubs have moved far from their original purpose and have lost a lot of luster with me. The Chrno Crusade thing is a perfect example of how absurd the situation has become, where over a dozen different groups are releasing the same show and completely ignoring the stuff that the fansub was created for, the shows like Space Runaway Ideon or Galaxy Express 999 TV that will never be licensed and released in America. Instead we get 12 different versions of a show that'll be over here in a year or two anyway. Kudos to Anime-Kissaten and the like who are dedicated to the older stuff but unfortunately it seems to me that most groups are the Anime Junkies type who are obsessed with getting a fansub out as quick as possible to make themselves more popular in the community, sometimes sacrificing a proper translation to do that.
Now, back to studying my Japanese so I can eventually found my own fansub group to release the above mentioned classics :P
The reason more and more fansub groups pop up, is because there is no normal supply and demand system to fansubs. Since they are free, the only thing involved is time by people, nothing monetary. This means that an unlimited number of groups can pop up bc even if nobody downloads their release, they aren't losing money or whatnot. Another problem is that groups don't just settle on like 2 series or so to do polished and do WELL ... most groups try to do a ton of series. Examples would be Anime-Keep, Aone, Ani-kraze, AJ, etc. You aren't ever going to get everyone to agree to leave series alone as some ppl are very attached and will do it anyways even if they do a worse job.
I guess they join the ranks of Americans who can't point out where America is on a world map. There is a world out there that isn't covered by an R1 license, as hard as it is to believe.
Uh, R1 covers Canada as well, but thats nice of you to assume it pertains to Americans only.
SirCanealot
2004-01-08, 05:48
Fansubbing isn't aplicable? Can I say... Hajime no Ippo!? Would this series have ever got licenced if it wassen't for its fansub run? I doubt it. The show isn't very popular in Japan (the manga is, the show, not). However, due to its fansub run the show has INSANE popularity online, and when the R1 DVDs come out this popularity will spread and those DVDs will FLY off the shelves. In a way, fansubs have earned Pioneer a LOT of money, since Hajime no Ippo is so popular now due to its fansub run. The same applies to Naruto, allthough Naruto would have gained popularity fansubs, you KNOW when the first R1 DVD hits the shelf LOTS of people will buy it. The same above applies to MANY shows. Fansubs are free promotion for R1 companies.
The only time this would be a bad effect, is when the series is err... "shit" :P
People will know its shit from its fansub run and allthough poor old ADV has spent a mint on it, it will get fewer sales. However, the insane popularity of shows and their increase in profits outmargins the neagative popularity of shows by far (if you get what I mean).
I also think its good that fansubs provided QUALITY products today. I think one of the reasons that R1 DVD companies have steped out their quality the last couples of years is that they know if they put out a dud product, there's high quality fansubs for people to fall back on.
Basically, imo, fansubs are doing little wrong now. Who the hell gives a crap if George W Bush starts fansubing CC? More popularity to the show, more DVDs sold for its R1 Licence company.
I actually started writing an essay on the issue last night dealing with some of the issues above. Who knows, maybe I'll finish it and post it, but this issue gets VERY complicated when you look at it in the broad way I generally do, so its hard to write on it.
complich8
2004-01-08, 06:49
I actually started writing an essay on the issue last night dealing with some of the issues above. Who knows, maybe I'll finish it and post it, but this issue gets VERY complicated when you look at it in the broad way I generally do, so its hard to write on it.
yeah .... like I was talking about before, look at the current state of conflict between the state of digital content (ebooks, fansubs, digital movies, etc) and the state of copyright law. There's a disparity there, because digital files are so easy to perfectly duplicate. You can see corporations spending insane research budgets hoping DRM will make the problem go away, with clumsy and ineffective solutions. Lawmakers are caught between wanting to protect old values (freedom of information, etc) and wanting to protect content creators' interests (copyright length increases, corporate patentholding and copyright holding, etc). Big business and the working man are at odds with each other, and there's no clear path out.
I hope your essay is a doctoral thesis, if you want to look at things from a wide angle. I seriously don't think the disparity between compensation for content creation and the ease of distribution of digital media will close any time in the immediate future. But we'll see it taking more of a spotlight in politics as we strive for a workable balance. There's no trivial easy answer to solve this problem and make everyone happy.
In the case of anime, I think globalization of media, micropayment models for media access, and a good universal translator are the answers. That's just my opinion though.
Don't make the mistake that more downloads means more dvds sold though. There's no real evidence one way or the other other than anecdotal for that, because marketplaces are complex one-shot deals: you can't really do a controlled experiment on it. It could be argued that more downloads is an effect of a better series, and better dvd sales are an effect of a better series. But that'd depend on having data that correlates the two things in the first place.
Good luck on the essay! Let us know how it turns out!
SirCanealot
2004-01-08, 09:12
I hope your essay is a doctoral thesis, if you want to look at things from a wide angle.
'the hell does that mean? :P
Anyway its getting more and more anying to write anything on the subject anyhows. If I try to look at the whole subject I have to look at a lot of things... or something. So I've noticed condrodictions and stuff already. Also, I have more points to make, but they only pop into my head everynow and again, so I keep on forgetting them. Gah...
I'll send it to you if you like, PM me your email if you want it, or I'll PM it to you. I'm afraid it doesn't make any sense at all, so feedback is always good :P
Fansubbing isn't aplicable? Can I say... Hajime no Ippo!? Would this series have ever got licenced if it wassen't for its fansub run? I doubt it. The show isn't very popular in Japan (the manga is, the show, not). However, due to its fansub run the show has INSANE popularity online, and when the R1 DVDs come out this popularity will spread and those DVDs will FLY off the shelves. In a way, fansubs have earned Pioneer a LOT of money, since Hajime no Ippo is so popular now due to its fansub run. The same applies to Naruto, allthough Naruto would have gained popularity fansubs, you KNOW when the first R1 DVD hits the shelf LOTS of people will buy it. The same above applies to MANY shows. Fansubs are free promotion for R1 companies.
Um... can you actually get sources that state that HnI was licensed because it was fansubbed. Sure fansubbing may have helped, but I'm not altogether sure that just because an older series is licensed, it's only because of the fansubbers.
The only time this would be a bad effect, is when the series is err... "shit" :P
People will know its shit from its fansub run and allthough poor old ADV has spent a mint on it, it will get fewer sales. However, the insane popularity of shows and their increase in profits outmargins the neagative popularity of shows by far (if you get what I mean).
I still doubt fansub watchers comprise a LARGE percentage of DVD buyers...
I also think its good that fansubs provided QUALITY products today. I think one of the reasons that R1 DVD companies have steped out their quality the last couples of years is that they know if they put out a dud product, there's high quality fansubs for people to fall back on.
Um... there's still duds coming out. Take Hoshi no Koe for instance... I mean... it would really nice if fansubs in some way made R1 releases better, but right now it looks not very likely. As long as there's really no competition in the actual R1 Anime DVD market, some companies won't be forced to improve and will still provide hit or miss releases. If fansubs reach the point where people who watch fansubs comprise a majority of the people who buy DVDs, then the companies may have things to worry about, but then again, they can just start suing people then.
michael_cho_my
2004-01-13, 04:26
There are so many other countries other than the States and by saying "There are many companies licensing animes" is very very ignorant. People from countries other than the States have no access of the R1s other than imports.
Look, if you guys are going to say that "You can import the R1s from the States" is also an ignorant statement. Part of the reason that they introduce the Region codes for DVDs are so that DVDs sold in some countries are cheaper than the others. And looking the way it is, DVDs in my country (dubbed R3) should be cheaper and I want to opt for that option and not the R1s.
I don't live in the States, and there are no anime licensing companies in my country.
My only source of animes are from the fansubbers. I can swear that if there's a legit (aka licensed in my country type) copy of a series I want to watch, I will buy it. However, in the mean time I'll just download them.
If a series is licensed in the States, the Americans are the ones who should be buying the R1s, and STOP downloading the particular series.
Fansubbing is still relevant.
SirCanealot
2004-01-13, 04:30
Um... can you actually get sources that state that HnI was licensed because it was fansubbed. Sure fansubbing may have helped, but I'm not altogether sure that just because an older series is licensed, it's only because of the fansubbers.
You can only go on logic and the eveidence we have.
Which is - HnI series is not very popular in Japan.
HnI was unknown to the English speaking world.
Fansubbers sub HnI.
Series gains huge popularity.
Pioneer Licences.
I think the popularity is most important. R1 companies wont licence a product that wont sell, which could have been the case with HnI since it is so unpopular in Japan.
Fansubbing is still relevant, but for different reasons. Nowadays, most new shows are licensed during preproduction - the advance that licensors pay goes directly towards financing the series. What fansubbing is good for is shows that have been overlooked at that point (Guu, Earth Defense Family), unpopular genres with licensers (Sports anime), titles stuck in perpetual licensing hell with no visible way out (Macross 7, Gao Gai Gar), stuff that's only a small part of a larger franchise that requires significant background unavailable in R1 (Galaxy Railways), and oldskool that's either long/obscure (GodMars, Touch). These are the areas where fansubs make new fans, who bring attention to the licensors who begin bringing shows out in R1.
What surprises me is how few and how hard it can be to find non-English fansubs. There's groups doing subs in the major European languages, but unless you know how to really track them down, you can't find their work.
Uh, R1 covers Canada as well, but thats nice of you to assume it pertains to Americans only.
I think you missed the point of my post - making fun of ignorant Americans (who are generally the ones who go on about anime licensing rendering fansubbing irrelevant).
There are so many other countries other than the States and by saying "There are many companies licensing animes" is very very ignorant. People from countries other than the States have no access of the R1s other than imports.
Look, if you guys are going to say that "You can import the R1s from the States" is also an ignorant statement. Part of the reason that they introduce the Region codes for DVDs are so that DVDs sold in some countries are cheaper than the others. And looking the way it is, DVDs in my country (dubbed R3) should be cheaper and I want to opt for that option and not the R1s.
I don't live in the States, and there are no anime licensing companies in my country.
My only source of animes are from the fansubbers. I can swear that if there's a legit (aka licensed in my country type) copy of a series I want to watch, I will buy it. However, in the mean time I'll just download them.
If a series is licensed in the States, the Americans are the ones who should be buying the R1s, and STOP downloading the particular series.
Fansubbing is still relevant.
Uh... I think the point of fansubbing was to get you translations of anime that you wouldn't otherwise be able to get, not to provide you with cheaper alternatives for anime... For example, if all anime produced in Japan had English subtitles from the beginning, fansubs would've never existed.
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