Higurashi Episode 11 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

kj1980

2006-06-12, 15:33

Welcome to the discussion thread for Higurashi no Naku Koroni, Episode 11.

Thread Guidelines
No telling or asking for RAWs.
Try to keep spoilers from the Game or Manga out of the anime thread. If you need to in reply to someone with a reference to the Game / Manga, either PM them or use Spoiler tags (see example below).
Discuss your expectations of the episode if not aired.
Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Try to keep the discussion on topic and future episode spoilers out of the thread whenever possible.

Spoiler Tag Usage

Using Spoiler Tags is easy. Using this...

Don't forget to use the spoiler title

....will get you this...

Don't forget to use the spoiler title

ADDITIONAL RULES FOR Higurashi no Naku Koroni
Make sure you read the English wikipedia article for Higurashi no Naku Koroni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higurashi_no_Naku_Koro_ni) before you ask questions!!!

Feel free to utilize the info on the TIPS section (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31732) as a complement to this series.

Feel free to share your theories and speculations. In fact, I encourage you to do so as this is what makes this series interesting.

I am designating Sushi-Y and Freakman to lead the discussion in the correct path without spoilers as they have played the game in advance. I put confidence in them that they will recognize a member has spilled the beans too far if any other members has begun to play the game.

SPOILERS FAR ADVANCED THAN THE CURRENT AIRED ANIME EPISODE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. THIS INCLUDES THOSE IN SPOILER TAGS!!!. People tend to peek at spoiler tags; especially when they do not know such tag is meant for the episode, only to find it spilling the beans too far advanced in the game storyline.

kj1980

2006-06-13, 12:56

hmm...by looking at the Futaba-chan image board, I sincerely hope they didn't cut out the scene where Rena kicked some verbal whoop-ass towards Kei in that scene. It seems the part where Satoko cries on things that implies the type of abuse has been cut out. But at least the images seem to show heart thumping moments where people can finally cheer for Kei's actions (even though they are out to the extreme...).

paTKany

2006-06-13, 17:11

Probably the best episode so far.

Keiichi does not know mercy. Ugh... http://ov.pserve.hu/fmls/19.gif

This was the first time during the series where i really liked Miki Itou's voice acting. Ep11 Takano was superb.

Freakman

2006-06-13, 17:12

とうとう本番だ。

Takano, as creepy as ever :D (if not at her creepiest)
Keiichi doing a nice job of being a nutjob (albeit an organized one).

The episode I'm waiting is still the final one though :)

Sushi-Y

2006-06-14, 00:41

hmm...by looking at the Futaba-chan image board, I sincerely hope they didn't cut out the scene where Kei, Mion, and Rena get into a heated argument about Satoko's demise. Rena kicked some verbal whoop-ass towards Kei in that scene...
Forget that, they skipped the entire "KOOL" scene. No high-speed thinking, and no KOOL-mode Keiichi. :(

I really don't like complaining, but seeing as how Tatarigoroshi-hen was my favorite chapter in the entire game, it's really frustrating to see so many things omitted.

If any episode could've used Keiichi's internal monologues, it was this one. Without them, the significance of all his actions in this episode became far less meaningful. Everything from the reason why he hid Satoshi's bat beforehand to the reason why he chose to phone Teppei from the school became unclear without his internal monologues. Also, without Keiichi's high-speed chain of thought portrayed in the novel, it felt incredibly awkward to hear Keiichi's "decision" all of a sudden, like it came out of nowhere.

Also, there was a series of flashbacks halfway through this episode about Keiichi's past and how he came to Hinamizawa and got to meet Rena and the others for the first time... I can't believe they went through the entire thing without a single word from Keiichi. The flashbacks could've made a powerfully revealing scene about what Keiichi thought of himself and just how much he loved his friends. Instead, we got a silent flashback that merely suggested Keiichi was unhappy with his previous life... or something.

On the other hand, they made Keiichi say "Higurashi no naku koro ni" out loud, which came off as nothing but corny. :heh:

The Teppei scene was shortened down, as expected, and I'm not going to blame the anime for shortening it since the whole chase WAS dragged out pretty long in the novel.

But there was one particular section during that scene in the novel that really burned an image into my head:
When Teppei kept on running even though Keiichi's bat continued to strike his head from behind, wounding him greatly with each hit. There's Keiichi and Teppei, who's covered in blood, tear, and snot, running across the forest like two barbaric madmen, the image really shocked me.

The manga captured it quite well:
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/7598/124021236812425123753107127578.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123753107127578.jpg) http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/7598/124021236812425123753107127578.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123753107127578.jpg) http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/5161/31071275781237510101fz.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31071275781237510101fz.jpg)

On the other hand, the Takano scene near the end of this episode was really nicely done. Itou Miki-san's voice is as sexy and creepy as ever. ^^; Hard to believe she's the same person doing Fuji-nee's voice in Fate anime. :heh:

Again, the episode sort of got cut off at an odd spot (in the middle of a scene). But this one's not as bad as the last episode cut-off point (omitting the whole scene where Keiichi went into KOOL-mode after witnessing Satoko's breakdown).

Oh well, there's going to be 5 episodes for Tatarigoroshi-hen, so hopefully they won't have to rush the ending. I mean, this chapter's ending was absolutely overwhelming, so I pray they won't mess it up... too much.

USCPharmacist

2006-06-14, 10:34

K1, next time you want to kill someone, use a crowbar instead!!!! one hit and they die, no need to run all over the place lol

And the blonde chick...she is so evil, I don't think she die in any of the scenerio at all, she probably murders that stupid photographer everytime lol.

Anacone

2006-06-14, 12:27

It had very good atmosphere through episode. Maybe because its raining here gave extra impact but I think it was well done although Kei did decision quite fast. Outcome was expected when I saw bat.

AzureFlux

2006-06-14, 12:53

I agree with Sushi-Y, the leaving out of Keiichi's transformation is really disappointing. That transformation was one of the most exciting and climatic scenes in the game for the question chapters IMO. Not only did it show an extremely cool side of Keiichi, the scene also explained the swift actions he took in this episode. The higurashi crying effects is really cheapening out on me, especially after the part where Keiichi said out loud "higurashi no naku koro ni".

The meeting with Takano was done quite well, with a few disparities from the game, like how Keiichi left his bike by the trees instead of transporting it. That might have been done to bring more focus on other things though. The episode ended just short of an important scene. Hopefully they don't leave it out again like this episode.

kj1980

2006-06-14, 13:27

While it did seem a bit out-of-the-blue without KOOL-mode Kei, surprisingly it still was done plausibly. While yes they did again cut out some scenes that might've created a larger impact, it is not too big of a deal to get in a ruff about. They did what they were supposed to do - covering the main points.

They coolness factor diminished ten-fold when Kei said "Higarushi no naku koro ni" in the anime compared to the game. In the anime, it felt too rushed and the result was corniness. In the game...it sent chills down my spine.

And Takano was portrayed beautifully here...very creepy. Itou Miki's shallow voice brought up the creep factor five-fold at the end. Great episode.

Now, we're on to the next episode where the REAL stuff starts to happen (remember - each chapter goes into full-gear always after the Watanagashi Festival).

Rasuberi

2006-06-14, 13:31

Aa. Since I would have liked to see the scenes that they left out, I wont be giving this a perfect score, but I don't think I have ever had my heart beating so much when whatching an anime. The second I realized Keiichi decided to kill him (before he said it out loud) ドキドキ wouldn't stop. I.. I've never seen something like that so, I sure love Higurashi more now.

"Higurashi no naku koro ni" was extreamly corny, I was thinking after he said it he could have maybe paused a little while saying it, it might have lessened the corniness. The way he said it straight out felt too.. too much like they just wanted to get that in there.

So I am assuming Keiichi had that usual mentally-bullied-in-previous-school-for-being-smart-thus-moves-to-smller-town-to-be-happier-syndrome?

Takano... I really lover her. At first it was soley because she's voiced by Miki Itou, and Miki Itou is love, but her creepiness is now +++. Ahh. I was screaming in my head "don't get in the car Keiichi!!" and her last line... Keiichi "('__ ';;) whaa?"

MarmoO

2006-06-14, 14:26

This episode was heavy, I don't know how many times I have a thought "don't do it, just don't" until everything was over, I'm really afraid of what is going to happen in next episodes. And Takano is really made of creepy and suspicious.

npal

2006-06-15, 15:14

What's with the subs' link? There's no Higurashi 11 in that tracker, yet Animesuki has it listed. Strange...

Freakman

2006-06-15, 15:32

That's what you call a screw up. Was pulled out because of an error.

monir

2006-06-15, 15:55

Well, I was one of the lucky ones who got the episode before it was pulled back. I was getting frustrated how Higurashi was advancing in ep 5-8 (because of animation/direction/voice acting etc..) and now after watching 9-11, I've become a fan of this show once more. Yet I still ponder if a studio like KyoAni handled this show, could this show have been turned out differently?

After episode 1-2, episode 11 has been another episode that really freaked me out. It's not because what happened in those episodes, rather, the freaky part comes out when one reflects on it. For example, Keiichi in one part of the episode is talking to his mother about what she considers a good murder mystery novel, where the criminal gets away with it. Actually he wants know how he can get away by killing someone and his line of thinking wasn't hypothetical either. Calm, calculating pre-meditative murder is always creepy. I'm used to this guy loosing his nerve, acting like an idiot as he got himself too much in it because the dude was too nosy. In this episode, he is a cold blooded killer, so the change in attitude of Keiichi was refreshing.

Give this episode an 8.

P.S. As I read Sushi-Y, I've this urge to see of this hi-speed-thinking Keiichi.

Azn_GooWakJai

2006-06-15, 16:21

What's with the subs' link? There's no Higurashi 11 in that tracker, yet Animesuki has it listed. Strange...

Yea Im gettin the same thing. Can't see crap. and yes it is sum sort of a screw up from the torrent tracker. *sigh* and I was just eager in seeing this ep =(

Varion

2006-06-15, 17:07

Seen as it seems to be getting asked every 2 minutes in the channel, to save them having to answer any more of the same question:

The torrent's been dropped because a translation comment was left on the final release, as shown here (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7523/panicattack7lp.jpg), and should be available by this time tomorrow. Probably. It's better than the usual saturday/sunday release date anyway :D

Pellissier

2006-06-15, 17:18

Great episode.

Yes, Kei's development felt like being a little too fast. I'm not say surprising, as far as I'm concerned, but just it's like there may have been some temporal jump.
I feel so sorry everytime by reading that important things have been left off :( , but still, chapeau to this episode.
Excellent rendering of all the Kei's actions.

and the actual murder was done greatly. Just look at Kei's spirited eyes. Much like when he killed Rena and Mion in Onikakushi

The quote, "Higurashi no Naku Koro ni", yes ... maybe a bit.. out of the blue? But very impactful nonetheless.

Takano, lol, she's so magnificent.

Actually, while I was kind of expecting her to know what happened, I didn't expect her to say straight "was the corpse buried properly?" .
And before they got on the car I had a flash on my head, seeing Kei's frightened eyes.. "what if he kills her now? Potential witness?" Lol, it's the first time she survives at Watanagashi festival (as for now) , after all :heh:

And now, since the hot stuff still has going to start, I'm really looking forward for how Tatarigoroshi will proceed.

I wish this anime would never end.

9/10

RMgX

2006-06-15, 18:32

It will be interesting to see now if the uncle was really the one hurting Satoko, K1 seem pretty good at jumping to conclusions, if someone else was hurting Satoko ( like the cop or the doc ) and he finds out he just murdered her only relative it's probably going to get nasty. I wonder if he'll kill himself or go berserk. Of course he could have come to the right conclusion this time but the text at the end of the episode...
So could Takano have the photographers body in the trunk? Did she just deduce what K1 had been doing?
One explanation of how she'd know so much ( and have the photographer's body in the trunk ) would be if she was a Sonozaki hitman. Mion or Shion who was probably suspecting what K1 was going to do could have told her to keep an eye out for K1 and perhaps given a reason as well or maybe Takono's creepy thoughts just move in a certain direction

iczelion74

2006-06-15, 21:24

Sinestra

2006-06-15, 21:25

I gave episode 11 a 9 my heart was racing the entire time. I must say that Keiichi has got a pair on him. Also, i loved the back story they gave on his intellgience. but i was so sure he wasent going to to do it, but then he started MLB on Satokos uncle like he did on Mion and Rena int he first chapter and i was blown away.

Hes crime was almost perfect with a few stumbles here and there but the fact that he planned everything in a day almost is amazing. Tekano is so god creepy and he finally words to Keiichi have me worried about the next episode i think we are going to see some heavy stuff go down. Higarashi countinues to blow my mind i will definetly have to say i am going to add it my top 20 series. I can honestly say i dont think i have seen another series like it.

I did notice one thing the bat that K1 used to beat Satakos uncle i could have sworn that it was Satoshi's bat but he threw it in the swamp. If that is the case how did he use it in the first chapeter to trash Mion and Rena?

Flame-X

2006-06-15, 21:54

surprising that keichi went that far for satoko

Sushi-Y

2006-06-16, 02:23

surprising that keichi went that far for satoko
There, you just caught the no.1 deficiency with the anime: not enough empathy between us viewers and the characters. The game went though a long process showing Keiichi developing a loving bond with Satoko, learning and understanding about her situation, and trying his best at becoming a second ni-ni- figure for Satoko (you can see a little bit of this in the "advanced trap lecture" TIP, I think). There was a loving relationship between the two.

That's why, when Keiichi *snapped* from seeing Satoko breaking down (which he did in the game, but not in the anime), the feeling was mutually shared by most players as well. That's why, when Keiichi went into "KOOL mode" (a term used by the fans describing the times when Keiichi went into a psycho state, kind of like Rena's Oyashiro-mode), the players felt it too. The anime lacked these types of portrayal, that's why it felt really sudden to see Keiichi "going that far for Satoko".

Can someone give some insight on the important parts from the game that were left out of eps 11?

The manga captured this quite well:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7598/124021236812425123753107127578.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123753107127578.jpg) http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1111/31071275781237508423qx.th.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31071275781237508423qx.jpg) http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7598/124021236812425123753107127578.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123753107127578.jpg)
Eliminate Satoko's uncle.
There are plenty of ways to achieve that. Truly, there is an unlimited number of methods to go about it.
Ironically, compared to the methods of saving Satoko, most of which requires an investment cost, it costs practically nothing to erase that man.

It's possible to eliminate that man with minimal investment.
Minimal investment and some change.
That's the weight of that man's life.

Wipe out useless informations from my head one by one,
...and fill it only with information required to carry out my objective.
Engage every cell within my brain for the sole purpose of eliminating that man.

The removal of that man is performed in order to restore the peaceful times to us and Satoko.
If I get arrested in return for that man's removal, then it's no different from a double death.

Only that man disappears, while our daily lives return once again. That's the ultimate goal. The absolute target.

I'll definitely kill him.
However, don't leave any evidence behind.
The two contradicting sides on a scale.
The condition of not leaving behind any trails automatically narrows the number of killing methods down.

The absolute rule is to not be spotted.
Luckily, there are almost nobody around in Hinamizawa if you pick the right time.

Reconstruct the landscape surrounding Satoko's house.
...The amount of traffic that changes with the time slot. The algorithms of the neighbouring resident's movements.

Should I call him out? Should I ambush him? What will the weapon be? When and where will it be carried out?
The condition is that it must be a location where I won't leave behind a trail.

Time conditions also add to that, this must be carried out as soon as possible in order to save Satoko.

Pointless, pointless.
Now that I think about it, I realize just how simple the act of killing is.
If it's alright to leave behind evidences, if we're just talking about killing, then anyone can easily murder another person.

But our reasoning stops that.
That "if you do it, you'll definitely get arrested".

In the end, the ultimate restraint that stops us from the act of murder is the thought that we'll get arrested by police, that's all.
(Pointless!)

If this was in the middle of the ocean, and knowing for sure that no evidences will be left, anyone would would push the person they hate into the sea!

If we're just talking about the removal of that man, then it's all too easy.
I can dash out of this classrom right now and pick up a metal bat or something in the school yard and assault that man at his house.

Estimated time required is 25 minutes.
If I were to go in without caring about my own safety, then, coverted into seconds, I will be able to complete this in less than 1500 seconds.

I realize just how that man is being allowed to live.
If I were to make the decision, he would be exiled from this world in merely 1500 seconds, that's the level of his existence.

If I were to make the decision, he would only have 1500 seconds left to live.
No, ...If I ran for his house quickly, that remaining life would probably be shortened even more.

But that man is alive.
Tearing Satoko's body and mind into tatters, yet he's living on even at this very moment.

Why?!

Because I'm letting him live.
He's still able to live right now because I approved him to live.
If I were to take back that approval, he would have to leave this world within 1500 seconds.

...... Like hell I'm going to let you breath the air of this world for another 1500 seconds.
... As of this moment, I cancel all of those approvals.
... And that was just a small section of Keiichi's internal monologue during his "KOOL mode".

Also, in the game, while Keiichi was still stunned, Rena ran up to Satoko, and after whispering with Satoko (which we cannot hear, just like Keiichi), we saw Rena explode with anger, kicking over a desk, and even went Oyashiro-mode on Keiichi due to his obstinate questions.
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7598/124021236812425123753107127578.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123753107127578.jpg)
And then, broke down in tears together with Satoko,
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7598/124021236812425123753107127578.th.jpg (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=124021236812425123753107127578.jpg)
This scene was so emotionally powerful because the players have no idea what Rena heard from Satoko, just like Keiichi, but we were able to sense that something horrible has happened to Satoko, and that we were too late.
What can I say? The anime simply didn't (or can't) get around to all these other aspects of the original sound novel, and that really weakened the story a lot.

But if you think about, it's not as if the anime's skipping them on purpose, because it's true that every episode was packed with developments. There was simply no room to accomodate all the other plot elements from each chapter.

Too bad, rather than blazing through each chapter, focusing only on the "suspense" portions of the story, if they had focused on only 1 or 2 chapters and took the time to illustrate all the important scenes and events, the stories would've been so much more powerful than they are now.

I'm complaining again, aren't I? ^^;

Well, I'll just shut up and repeat to myself that phrase I heard somewhere:
"Just be glad that an anime version actually exists, just be glad that an anime version actually exists, just be..."

Paracelsus

2006-06-16, 02:39

I did notice one thing the bat that K1 used to beat Satakos uncle i could have sworn that it was Satoshi's bat but he threw it in the swamp. If that is the case how did he use it in the first chapeter to trash Mion and Rena?

If that is the case, why all of them are still alive after getting killed? Detail-wise, each chapter's plot is somehow a stand-alone, as if there was some kind of loop that brings everything back to the beginning, just like nothing had happened before. Or something

npal

2006-06-16, 02:49

Well, I might go that far for any kid. I mean, should legal means fail, I'd certainly have serious thoughts about doing it myself or hiring some assassin to dispose of the individual in question. Damn, if he's such a bastard and doesn't really care about looking for her, I could as well organize a fake kidnapping and use all means necessary to change her name and appear as her guardian in a remote rural area. Nevertheless... Keiichi is cool for once :D

Pellissier

2006-06-16, 03:03

Too bad, rather than blazing through each chapter, focusing only on the "suspense" portions of the story, if they had focused on only 1 or 2 chapters and took the time to illustrate all the important scenes and events, the stories would've been so much more powerful than they are now.
Yes, complaining isn't fair since they still brought animated such an immense and powerful novel. :)
Though, I'm really getting again that deja-vu feeling of "rushed-off" (not due to production's fault) that I felt a bit in Onikakushi, more in Watanagashi, and much stronger now in Tatarigoroshi. Funnily enough, the previos episode was called "Bond" , but yet they miss to show all the actual bonds, even with 1 episode more than Onikakushi and Watanagashi.

A nice formula that I could think of, also because of the absence of the last two answer question, could have been as following:

- A season 1 (26 episodes) with the question chapters, 6 episodes for each chapter with a bonus of 2 for the chapters needing more (like Tatarigoroshi seems worthy enough of it).

- Later (fall, or winter) a season 2 (26 episodes) with the answer chapters, still 6 episodes each (+2) with Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi included as well.
I don't like the idea of the last 2 chap. being excluded. The anime will Imho feel incomplete even if the end will be looking like satisfaying.

I'm asking too much, I know :D ... though basically it's just like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Kai. Lol, it's that I just can't have too much of this show. Kinda reminds me of X-Files made into anime so it's a pity to see it being almost at its half ^^

Also, I've to say that reading this forum is sort of crucial to sort out the story better. I've to admit, that a non-novel reader/non-game player who should watch the anime, may be somewhat lost. (it's a bit the same of Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsuu and the shuffling of episode's order in Kyon' timeline rather than Haruhi's timeline. Who whould understand that without a previous tiny explanation?)

Freakman

2006-06-16, 03:13

Sushi-Y

2006-06-16, 04:31

I doubt those train of thoughts passages could be adapted into anime very well.
I mean are you just going to have a still image for 5-8 minutes while he talks ?
Some people may like it, but chances are you're just going to estrange most of the audience. But I'll admit they could still have more.
What I want to say is that books (well, visual/sound novels) aren't the same medium as anime, so obviously you're not going to get the same.
Definitely, if the anime stuck to the sound novel to a tee (like Kyoani did with Suzumiya Haruhi), you'd probably get whole episodes where absolutely nothing happens. So I'm not against cutting out/shortening the unimportant scenes.

But it's a different story when they start leaving out scenes that are significant or even critical to the original story, because at that point, it begins to intrude on the integrity of the original story.

Don't want to see Keiichi standing there thinking to himself for 5 minutes? Fine, do what the manga did, cut it down to a quick symbolic scene, but don't cut it out altogether.

I know perfectly well that the anime has its limits, and like I said in the last post, I know they're not skipping these scenes on purpose. There's simply no room to accomodate everything, that's all.

Rather than choosing to focus on a small number of chapters and portraying all aspects of the story (drama, mystery, tragedy, comedy, suspense, horror...), they chose to cover a larger number of chapters, leaving only enough room for the "suspense" elements in each one.

And in my opinion, that's a shame because the anime-watchers are really missing out on some stellar details.

Now if you don't mind, I'll go back to repeating that phrase to myself again.

Morgri

2006-06-16, 08:06

I thought it was paced really well. Sure, we didn't really get to see the development much between the too, but in my honest opinion, I really saw the connection between him and the Satoko. Why would he invest so much time with her during the last episode? Or, when I looked at it has a whole, from arc to arc, I got a better sense of character development from Keiichi and the girls he has come to love.

Therefore, I gave the episode a 10. Not because it could have been better, but becuase I thought it had as much as it needed to people who haven't seen the manga or actual game. I'm sure if I were to ever get the game, I would find it much better, or the novels for that reason, but not playing the game or not watching the novels hasn't affected my find on the show at all. I still see the great relationship between Keiichi and the girls, I still gathered why he hated his past and how it compared to the present he had with the girls, and pertaining to this arc, just like the last one, I see why he would have risked him wellbeing and morality for Satoko.

It was done remarkably well, and to criticize every point that went wrong is really unfair. Sort as if you where picking out every bad thing that a book that was converted into a movie had.

Bravo, great episode.

For additional comments, though, I get the feeling that Satoko will get angry at Keiichi for doing this. Maybe not becuase she's happy that her uncle is gone, but perhaps becuase she is worried about Keiichi's well being, or maybe cause it reminds her to much about what Satoshi did. I find it kind of odd that he did the same thing as Satoshi =p. Either way, one thing is clear, Keiichi would be crushed if Satoko got mad at him and decided not to forgive him. That's where it would become interesting, how would Keiichi react afterword? Would he be able to forgive himself for harming Satoko instead of his actual purpose to save her? Or maybe, she won't be mad at all? or will she keep a secret? I think those questions are important ones going into the next episode.

ChainLegacy

2006-06-16, 13:20

I never have anything deep or interesting to say, so I'll just add that I like the murdering Keiichi seen in this and at the end of the first arc best. I hate it when he gets pushed around :P.

Arimfe

2006-06-16, 17:08

I really thought that he was busted when the car approached him, like "oh crap, he's here....he's comming! Keiichi GET OFF THE ROAD! And why are you still carrying that shovel??? OMG Oishi is comming you'll be busted aaarrrrrrhrhhhhhhhh:eyespin: "
I was really relieved hearing it was Takano. But then something is telling me I can't quite feel too relieved just yet.....:eyespin:

Amaranthine

2006-06-16, 18:47

It was a good episode, which I gave 9/10. I won't bother saying why, my thoughts have already been voiced by others. And one thing is bugging me so much...

All I can think is "Takano has Tomitake's bike in the back of her car... what is in the trunk?" There's one answer that springs to mind straight away, and I'm far too scared of Takano to believe it's actually something innocent in the trunk.

I'm sure it's his bike as well, as his bike is a folding one, and there are two wheels next to each other when we see it in the back of the car.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2282/tbike0gr.png

But... why? Confusion... maybe it is something innocent. Or not something innocent, but not Tomitake either.

Akuryou

2006-06-16, 20:29

I guess it's Tomitake afterall... or Satoko's uncle's body.

...what if Takano worked for the Sonozaki [like someone here said] and Mion really made her kill the dude? Now, when she went to him, he wasn't home?

9/10 for me. Psycho Onikakushi'd Keiichi is the one to look forward to~

Matrim

2006-06-16, 20:39

I loved this episode. Great suspence and atmosphere. I can't wait for the next episode.

For some reason I was sure that Takano will catch Keiich red-handed and sure enough she did it. All the people, myself included, who suspected her seem to have been right to do so. Seems I am not the only one who thinks that she had a dead body in the trunk of her car? Probably that of Kenny...I mean Tomitake. :) Takano is totally leading my list of suspects right now, although she is just too obviously creepy to be the mastermind of it all.

It will be interesting to see now if the uncle was really the one hurting Satoko, K1 seem pretty good at jumping to conclusions, if someone else was hurting Satoko

Yes, it would be quite a chilling twist if the uncle was not that guilty as it seemed. Also, I am not that convinced that Satoshi actually killed his aunt.

One explanation of how she'd know so much (and have the photographer's body in the trunk ) would be if she was a Sonozaki hitman.

No need for jumping to conclusions, after all Keiichi seemed quite suspicious and I think we can be sure that Takano knows all about the murders in Hinamizava so no wonder she concluded he was a murderer.

And Keiichi can be quite scary indeed. But boy, he really needs to learn to lie better! His obvious lies bring him trouble in each story arc.

Sure, the development of the bond between Satoko and Keiichi was totally rushed in this arc but what can we do, seems like in the anime plot development has a much bigger priority than character development which is a shame but the motivation of the characters, although often not fully clear, so far has not been totally lacking.

BakaOnna

2006-06-16, 20:48

Wow... this episode... the last time an episode effected me so much was episode 4. In a way, I found it really disturbing, but I did want the uncle to die a horrible death. I'm just hoping Keiichi didn't jump into conclusions about the uncle. I wonder how Sakoto will react to this. I'm pretty sure Mion has an idea of what Keiichi did and Takano knows. It was truely a very well-done and heavy episode. My heart was literally beating for twenty minutes, and Takano was just creepy. When I first saw that scene, I though it might have been Keiichi's hallucination, but I'm not sure, since Takano did drive her car by and she's creepy like that.

The only reason I didn't give it a 10 was I would've liked to see some of Keiichi's KOOLness get animated. Still, excellent episode.

Pacilia

2006-06-16, 21:05

THis is the first ep of higurashi that made me sit at the edge of my seat and my heart pounding really fast throughout the entire thing. It would've been better if osme things are explained, though I'm going to guess that I can get the answer in teh TIPS....

Beyond the Shave

2006-06-16, 21:34

Probably my favorite episode so far. They finally give Keiichi (a little, not much) backstory. I wonder if he went through an incident at his old school like Rena did?

The "big scene" was great, and Takano is definitely not a normal resident.

But if it is indeed Tomitake in the trunk, how could she have overpowered him?

BakaOnna

2006-06-16, 23:37

I don't know if it's me but the part where Keiichi was looking for the hole after he killed the uncle... he dug the hole where that yellow road sign was, but when he went back to the sign, the hole wasn't there. Was it possible for someone to have moved the sign? I'll have to watch that part again, but it looked as if the background changed, and the sign didn't look like it was at the bottom of that cliff... like its been moved or something...

orion

2006-06-16, 23:55

Well, I'm glad that they didn't do the Kei internal monologue.
That was too much to animate. Flow would have been interrupted. Besides, the discussion with his mother was a good enough substitute imo and you could pretty much tell that he was under alot of stress/psycho mode during the murder scene and the scene leading up to it. The flashback, chapter 1 and this chapter did establish a bond between those 2. We don't need to be hit over the head with it imo.

Besides it wasn't a perfect crime. The police will be called in. Tanako saw him after the incident and prob during the whole thing. (I bet she prob had the hole refilled and the sign moved to slow him down and to better hide the evidence in a new site.) He has no alibi. He called from the school to the uncle's house. This is just a mess. Why not dump the body in the marsh? He's going to crack as soon as Oishi gets a hold of him. He's an idiot again, but now a proactive one. I really feel sorry for this guy.

So Tomitake...
bites the dust off camera again and prob his bike is in her trunk. He dies in every chapter and doesn't seem to do alot to get killed. I hope that this gets explained later on. Tanako survived the festival again. I wonder what does he see her do that causes his death. This also means that she won't rat on Kei to Oishi. She prob said that to intentionally throw him over the edge.

evil-samurai

2006-06-17, 01:52

The anime lacked these types of portrayal, that's why it felt really sudden to see Keiichi "going that far for Satoko".It seemed normal to me, for him to do that, I'm glad he did too that uncle was a Bastard. I dont think it really needs to be explain much, I mean the uncle was physically abusing Satoko it seems only human to stop it straight! away and for Keiichi the best way to stop it was to kill him ^^ which doesn't seem like a huge thing in this show where death happens alot. Keiichi chararter always had a backbone and can get on edge sometimes. So in aspect of seeing Keiichi plan to kill someone also isn't a suprize.

A nice episode, The current Arc is better then the last but still it will be hard to top the first arc. As I hear there are another two episode for this arc, I wonder where the focus will be.. On Keiichi and the death or somewhere else...

hi-hi

2006-06-17, 05:25

Didn't play game or read manga, but did feel the connection between Keiichi and Satoko from those flashbacks.
He didn't really have friends in his old school, but the killer lolis welcomed him right away.

Tomitake:
I bet Tomitake got buried by Takano in the first hole Kei dug! =o

daisukechan

2006-06-17, 05:34

in the preview the sub said "sh-shit! and i believed you!" i take it to mean thats kei-chan's quote and he finds out either the doctor or satoko is the real abuser/hurts herself. also i think this episode showed how even the slightest hint of something bad goes on around kei-chan he freaks out and goes psycho, like when in the first arc he was all fine till he was told about his friends involvement with the dead and went crazy on the girls...for a smart guy he sure can snap fast

I wish the game had someone to tranzlate it so i could play it o.o i love spoilers and it annoys me to no end that i dont know whats going on

edit: not wanting to post again i added more about what i think of kei-chan in the spoiler tag

rogueblade

2006-06-17, 05:43

wow, that was a great episode! I was a little confused at why they slipped in that montage of Keiichi's past though, what was it meant to show? It seemed fairly random to me.
Anyway, alot about what happened in this episode has already been discussed, and i don't have a great deal to add, except that i wonder if Mion/Shion knew about Satoshi's actions that night?
Anyway, speculation time:
Looking at the captions from the preview, i think it's likely the murder gets revealed to Rena/Mion etc, but also to Satoko. Didn't one of the caption say something along the lines of "I hate you!" and something about someone dying? I believe those are the words of Satoko after she finds out about the ordeal.
I also think it's plausible that one of two routes will be taken at the end of this arc :
1.) Keiichi is murdered by Satoko/Rena/Mion/Shion for killing Satoko's uncle.
2.) Keiichi is driven insane by the guilt and then - Kills himself to stop the guilt - the guilt would be the "thing that's watching over me" that Satoshi described before he went AWOL, and also the thing that Keiichi is running from in the first arc with the phone box incident.

Also, I heard somewhere that Rena, Mion and Riku confront Keiichi after the breakdown scene and have an argument with him. can anyone tell me what happens there?

Gains

2006-06-17, 06:16

A great episode full of suspense. I can relate things to past episodes from this one.

So the points of this episode:
-Keiichi took the bat from the locker remembering that Irie mentioned Satoshi in Hinamizawa Fighters, in Onikakushi he randomly picked one. This time he know fully that he used Satoshi's bat. Transfer of judgment to the "new nii-nii"?
-Apparently Keiichi "replicated" Satoshi's actions again by not going to the festival and not being fully honest to Mion.
-Mion in Tatarigoroshi did not trade places with Shion. She seemed consistent throughout the arc.
-From this arc, we get a glimpse that Shion likes Satoshi. Mion also possibly has feelings...she seems quite troubled when Keiichi called. The twins seemed to like the same people.
-Keiichi laughed after what he did. This is very different than the self-defence Keiichi in Onikakushi.
-The bat is now gone. Satoko might possibly realize this in the next episode. Wonder what would happen.
-Takano is very creepy but at the same time lovely. She can kill me and I won't object.

It looks like Keiichi transferred to Hinamizawa because of the bullying from his friends who are jealous of his intelligence (and from his rapid murder thoughts from Sushi-Y's post, he is indeed a genius if not almost one). Rena also transferred probably because of the bullying (she is a Hinamizawa resident is probably the cause, and she is also smart judging from Watanagashi's deduction on Rika and Satoko's disappearance) and she took Oryou's advice to retaliate using the baseball bat before going back to Hinamizawa. They both get friends that can understand them in the rural school in Himamizawa, so they are almost similar in that matter.

This arc proves the different attitude of Keiichi. In Onikakushi he distances himself from the group and the residents. In Watanagashi, he cares towards his friends in a balanced point of view (no special closeness) and he blames everything that happened to his friends on his trespassing. In Tatarigoroshi he is very close to Satoko, to the point of wanting to be the next brother figure for her replacing Satoshi. My prediction is that Satoko is likely to die in this arc and this might not bode well for Keiichi who is already very close to her. Mental breakdown? Suicide? Possible.

The car is very suspicious, when Keiichi did the burying. There is nothing that impede its path in the road but the driver sounded its horn close to Keiichi's point.

It seemed that she somehow triggered this event to happen. Telling Keiichi about the demoning away so that he went to Mion, saying that humans are responsible behind the disappearances, thus making Keiichi took the course of action. It also proves her theory since Keiichi is the one responsible for this year's "disappearance" (need to know if this is the case though, since this will be clear on the next episode, the person who is dead is yet unknown although I can safely bet on Tommy). The disappearance of the hole might be her doing and it is likely that she seemed to be the mysterious driver. It's also possible that she put Tommy in the trunk and it seemed quite easy for her. There are so many ways for her to "overpower" him. Distraction, neck clawing thingy, and possibly more :P It's almost as if she puppeteered Tommy and Keiichi.

The part in the preview is quite disturbing...Keiichi looking at his hand. It is possibly a realization that would create a hellhole for him.

Morgri

2006-06-17, 08:14

Besides it wasn't a perfect crime. The police will be called in. Tanako saw him after the incident and prob during the whole thing. (I bet she prob had the hole refilled and the sign moved to slow him down and to better hide the evidence in a new site.) He has no alibi. He called from the school to the uncle's house. This is just a mess. Why not dump the body in the marsh? He's going to crack as soon as Oishi gets a hold of him. He's an idiot again, but now a proactive one. I really feel sorry for this guy.

Woah, woah, I think it's going a little to far to call him an idiot. You have to consider everything Keiichi went about to ensure a succesful murder. He didn't just plan where he was gonna murder the uncle, he planned when to murder, how to murder; he thought of the times when nobody *should* have been there, where there was no traffic flow at the time and so forth and so on. Go plan a murder like that and tell me if an idiot could do it to such careful extent that Keiichi went about it. >>

Furthermore, I can't really say that Keiichi was truly psycho, as you guys have put it. I think he was at an emotional high and was instantly filled with a high amount of adrenaline. He was perfectly sane when he was beating him with the bat -- heck he even made sure he was dead, a pshycho would have probably kept beating him until there was nothing less.... etc...

Also, if seems suspicious that the only car that passed looks, if I remember right, just like Takano's (sp), and I do believe that it was her that filled that whole in. I don't thinks he moved the sign, though, she might have used the whole to bury tomitake (sp), and saw keiichi murdering Satoko's uncle by pure coincidence. You never know... yet.

However, I think it is almost save to assure that the uncle is the one who was abusing her. In episode 10, Satoko jumps at his presence, the anime and manga would have no reason to put that little seen in if he wasn't the abuser. I mean, if uncle comes out, and I know who he is, and I'm not being abused, why would I jump? Furthermore, her complancy of going to get the beer and such furthers this evidence. 1. Satoko would have never considered buying beer (off all things) unless she had a motive to get away. 2. The uncle scolded her even though it's clear she told her to do it. The director doesn't seem suspicious for one reason. He touched her during that scene and she didn't do anything, yet, again, she jumps as soon as she sees her uncle...

I really hate seeing keiichi die, and I would be so very happy if he were to stay alive. I've come to "care" for him just as much as I do with the girls, and I'm very sad for him in this arc, because of everything he did right (the planning of the murder and such) he forgot one thing, and that's the consequiences. No, I'm not talking about evidence or the chance of being caught becuase he certainly had factored those things in ("gotta ditch the scooter!"), but his emotional estate -- my guess about the episode previews is that he will be starting to be affected emotionally becuase of the shock and disdain of murdering someone (if your not a psycho... which my personal opinion that he is not one). If, by some miracle factor, as I see it, Satoko's uncle was innocent and Satoko's hates keiichi for it (which I think she'll be mad but not because her uncle is dead, but because she is worried about his wellbeing, you know, being thrown in jail and all). If she does, he will think that he wronged her which would probably throw him into instant suicidal, regretfull, thoughts that would end up being his demise.

Hmm, well judging by the way she reacts to Keiichi, i'm almost certain Shion had some kind of romantic attachement to Satoshi, perhaps, in arc 2 Keiichi reminds her of Satoshi so much that she starts to like him as well. Mion, however, shows no remorse for telling Keiichi what really happens; however, she is clearly worried during the phone call in episode 11 and we are fully aware that she is in love with him during arc 2. I think, by the way the series has progressed, that we can safely say that Mion still has some romantic attachement toward Keiichi, but, Shion has become more of a good friend. Maybe, if Satoshi were to appear in one of the answer arcs we could see if this theory is correct.

However, one thing I wonder about for this series, is how they will introduce the arcs -- when I hear that Keiichi is not the main character of the arcs -- without necessarily letting us down about how and why Keiichi reacted in other people's point of view. Do you get what i'm saying? Keiichi being the main character, I have a greater interest to see how all the arcs involve him. Or whatever, maybe it's just because I don't want to see him become purposeless once/if Satoshi comes back. I would really hate to see Rena, Mion, Shion, Rika, and Satoko suddenly turn their backs on Keiichi when they're older, seemingly more respected, friend Satoshi comes back into place. It just... woudn't seem right.

He well, that's all my comments, I'll probably be really sad when/if Keiichi dies, especially if all or most of the girls live. How would it affect them? we probably won't find out.

adamatari

2006-06-17, 08:52

I'm a little late getting to this, but I see a number of things that seem odd. I think Irie seems more suspicious now, as when I think back on it I remember the "dead eyes". Now, Satoko had the dead eyes when she got out of Irie's car. As the town doctor I would think he would have more leverage than anyone excepting perhaps the police to get Satoko out of an abuser's home, yet he drops her off and gives his little speech... I'm not sure trusting words is a good idea. Certainly his work in Onikakushi-hen suggests he has a lot of power to act against people. I think there is a distinct possibility Irie is the abuser.

As for other things...
It looks like Keiichi transferred to Hinamizawa because of the bullying from his friends who are jealous of his intelligence (and from his rapid murder thoughts from Sushi-Y's post, he is indeed a genius if not almost one). Rena also transferred probably because of the bullying (she is a Hinamizawa resident is probably the cause, and she is also smart judging from Watanagashi's deduction on Rika and Satoko's disappearance) and she took Oryou's advice to retaliate using the baseball bat before going back to Hinamizawa. They both get friends that can understand them in the rural school in Himamizawa, so they are almost similar in that matter.

This reinforces my idea that Hinamizawa is a loony bin. Perhaps Keiichi acted violently against the people that bullied him? If that's the case, we have two people with a past record of breakdowns and violent tendencies - Rena and Keiichi. Put them in a small, out of the way villiage with a adults that know about their histories and are trained to deal with mental illness, away from a large stressful school, and you could have a mental hospital in fact without the disadvantages of a hospital. However, one disadvantage is that when one of them snaps there is a possibility that it will set off others. Also, the head doctor would have a lot of power, so if he started to abuse it very bad things could happen.

In that case, Takano being a nurse she would be fully aware of Keiichi's tendencies. Of course she'd see right through him!

Oishi is a total question mark to me. I can't tell where he fits in all of this. It seems to me the police are nearly impotent in Hinamizawa, certainly unable to prevent the yearly murders and dissappearances. In my scenario, the doctor would have power over the villiage so perhaps the police would be weak there because it's the doctor's turf. I'm not sure where Mion and the Sonozaki family would be in all this. Maybe a 3 way power struggle between the doctors, the Sonozaki yakuza family, and the police?

Eh, I'm probably horribly wrong about all this. No biggie, I can wait for the answer arcs.

Matrim

2006-06-17, 09:08

wow, that was a great episode! I was a little confused at why they slipped in that montage of Keiichi's past though, what was it meant to show? It seemed fairly random to me.

I think the idea was that K1 was smart enough (or at least thought he was smart enough) to get away with murder. Also it showed that the four girls are very important to him.

Takano is very creepy but at the same time lovely. She can kill me and I won't object.

Maybe that's her secret - her victims don't resist her. :heh:

orion

2006-06-17, 09:21

Woah, woah, I think it's going a little to far to call him an idiot. You have to consider everything Keiichi went about to ensure a succesful murder. He didn't just plan where he was gonna murder the uncle, he planned when to murder, how to murder; he thought of the times when nobody *should* have been there, where there was no traffic flow at the time and so forth and so on. Go plan a murder like that and tell me if an idiot could do it to such careful extent that Keiichi went about it. >>

Well, I still think that it was ridiculous to murder someone on the one night that the police will be out in force looking for a murderer and actually another group of murderers may also be operating. People are suspicious of this night because people disappear on this night and will be vigilant. That's like saying, "Come and catch me 'cuz I'm an idiot." Phone calls can be traced and if someone was at Teppei's house when he received a phone call, then there is another witness. His plan was in his perspective and did not fully take in Teppei's home situation into consideration. Burial of an intact body with the bike and murder weapon in the marsh implies a human suspect that's not the Sonazaki family and can be hunted by the police.

Also, he acted on an impulse to murder Teppei without fully understanding the home situation. No home visits to Satako or anything.

This guy is incapable of providing a good alibi or lie for himself. This type pf person should never commit a murder imo.

I don't really sympathize with Satako as much as you guys do. If she's under a delusion that suffering will bring back her big brother, then suffer away kid. She's got a huge psych problem and playing the "victim" may be a part of it. (Another way to get those bruises is that she is doing it to herself. The flashbacks so far never showed Teppei or someone else abusing her. She also could have intentionally done something to aggravate Teppei and let herself be "found" by Irie to be brought home to "witness" this guy's outburst.) She's got to want help and she doesn't so intervening will only bring problems for yourself.

If you look at the bruise pattern in ep. 10, it looks suspicious for self-inflicted wounds. Left side of neck: If it was strangulation, it should have been more circumferential. Left outer arm: If you're pushed against something, the wound should have been on the left shoulder and attempting to deflect an incoming blow should have left a wound on her left forearm. Right inner thigh: I don't thnk that an offensive blow can cause this type of an injury. It should have been right outer thigh. If she was being immobilized, then the wounds should have been on the left thigh also.

Also, her behaviour with regards to these wounds is suspicious. Usually, you would try to hide them and not wear shorts and sleeveless clothes.

Placement of the injuries is also suspicious. They are in places that heal well and allow her the ability to have social interactions, sparing her face.

Combining all of this with this TIPS post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=584759&postcount=56) is making the chances of her being abused by Teppei slim imo.

For Irie...
Truly doubt that he is the abuser. He would be more likely to operate in the shadows, just like Sonazaki family and Tanako. In the first chapter, he was working with Mion. Docs in his income bracket just don't have that type of leverage imo (country doc) or the time to be in a power struggle. Besides, her downhill course started when she moved in with her uncle. The true power in that town is the Sonazaki family.

FubaredByAnime

2006-06-17, 11:44

Maybe they left too much out of the game, but I just found it weird how Keiichi was bullied in class. I know he went to the advanced class, but probably a bunch of other kids did as well. It's like nerds picking on nerds for being a nerd. And heck, Keiichi wasn't even 1st place on the board, but 3rd, so I don't see what made him such a target. Unless his bloodline can be traced to Hinamizawa and they felt the Ogre blood in him ... :heh:

Matrim

2006-06-17, 12:04

And heck, Keiichi wasn't even 1st place on the board, but 3rd, so I don't see what made him such a target.

Maybe the other smart kids were also bullied?

This guy is incapable of providing a good alibi or lie for himself. This type pf person should never commit a murder imo.

True, Keiichi can't tell a convincing lie to save his life and he has to count on not being interrogated by Oishi which is not bloody likely. But Keiichi has been quite reckless in al the arcs, so it's not exactly a really surprising turn of events.

RMgX

2006-06-17, 12:17

If Satoko wasn't abused at all but was instead faking it and lying like some suggested, or if she had been abused before and had gone a bit nuts and was faking it now that would be great in a way, such a malicious turn of events. It will be interesting to see who the abuser actually was.
K1 should watch some detective conan or something to learn about faking alibis

Thewanderer

2006-06-17, 17:53

So I'm guessing that Satoko's uncle is the one who have gotten killed this time during the festival. Maybe that's how Takano knew... she expected it somehow.

aliensporebomb

2006-06-17, 18:20

Wow. Powerful episode. I'm withholding my comments until the next one
because I think that:

Keiichi may have jumped to conclusions on who the abuser really was.

Nork22

2006-06-17, 19:31

Phone calls can be traced and if someone was at Teppei's house when he received a phone call, then there is another witness. His plan was in his perspective and did not fully take in Teppei's home situation into consideration. Burial of an intact body with the bike and murder weapon in the marsh implies a human suspect that's not the Sonazaki family and can be hunted by the police.
Well he did plan it out very well. He used the school's phone to make the call so the police can't really trace it per say.
He's planning and execution of the murder was almost perfect in "theory", but to quote Murphy's Law: "If there's anything that can go wrong, will go wrong at the worst possible moment"

From Tippei running too far away from the man hole, to the missing man hole he dug earlier, to having to run back to school to get the shovel again, and having been picked up by Takano and failing at her interrogation's.

I say K1's time after the festival is going to be an interesting one. :D

Thewanderer

2006-06-17, 19:54

He should've burried the murder weapon elsewhere.

Not that I know how to cover something up like that:heh:

Circular Logic

2006-06-17, 20:43

It seems that Keiichi's going to go a bit Macbeth next episode. The preview was so Lady Macbeth.

Not much to say here in terms of the mystery, except

a) Keiichi's mother's conversation. I believe that's a hint to look to the dam murder.

b) There's MUCH more to Keiichi than we could have thought.

c) What theme has recurred? SATOSHI. The Keiichi-Satoshi parallel is strong, ya?

There's a lot more discrepancy between the chapters than I first thought.

oasis

2006-06-17, 23:41

Anyone care to spoil us on the nature of the abuse? Otherwise it's hard to contextualize K1's motivations.

Well, I'll just shut up and repeat to myself that phrase I heard somewhere: "Just be glad that an anime version actually exists, just be glad that an anime version actually exists, just be..."

I would be inclined to agree but taken to its logical conclusion then any version, however poorly conceived or executed, would be acceptable - and obviously that's not the case. So on the spectrum of expectations, I don't think you should hesitate to point out how the present one meets them or the lack thereof (in fact, it helps us better appreciate the nuances of the series). With the TIPS and manga scans provided it's become obvious to everyone who hasn't played the game that there's the details omitted in the series substantially detract from its full appreciation, and is by no means a close substitute.

Eric the Grey

2006-06-18, 01:51

This episode is worth a 10, if for no reason other than the fact that Keiichi has a real set on him.

Well, I might go that far for any kid. I mean, should legal means fail, I'd certainly have serious thoughts about doing it myself or hiring some assassin to dispose of the individual in question.

Heh. I think a lot of people would feel that way given the same circumstances. Personally, if I could have done what Keiichi did here, I'd have spent a number of years in prison myself, and would have one less uncle in the world, but alas, I could not.

One thing I think should be pointed out is that those of us who have not read the manga, or seen the game won't necessarily miss as much when stuff is left out, or things have changed. I'd love to see the game, but unless it is translated into english, it'll never happen. :mad:

Myself, I thought the episode was top-notch, even with Keiichi using the "Higurashi no Naku Koro ni" line, which I thought was rather poetic.

Now, Takano has grown to be the creepiest character in this series. Little by little, she is getting more so. I'm really curious as to how exactly she knew what K1 was doing. I also think that perhaps she is the reason his hole vanished.

Tomitake:
I bet Tomitake got buried by Takano in the first hole Kei dug! =o

Oooohhhh!! I like that thinking. :D

If Keiichi was being picked on at his old school, might he not have snapped, like Rena did at her old school, forcing a move to the new school? Perhaps this was the reason for the flashback, and we just didn't get the whole story?

...and one final thought:

I'm thinking Keiichi is going to completely loose it next episode, and start seeing the uncle everywhere.

:cool: Eric the Grey

Shirobane

2006-06-18, 02:48

Now, Takano has grown to be the creepiest character in this series. Little by little, she is getting more so. I'm really curious as to how exactly she knew what K1 was doing. I also think that perhaps she is the reason his hole vanished.

Well maybe it's just me but I thought he did a pretty poor job comitting the "perfect murder"; any murder that requires that much back and forth movement has to be poorly planned...
I would have to say that Takano probably happened along the scene at about the time Keiichi finished clubbing Satoko's uncle to death. This is due to several observations:
- Satoko's Uncle was unseated from his scooter (*cough*vespa*cough*) rather roughly, this would leave at least some deep raking marks on the dirt ground if not pieces of metal, plastic and even reflective glass lying about.
- Satoko's Uncle's scooter was also lying out in the open road as Kei-chan committed the murder, even though the road is pretty quiet, it is still used as evidenced by the car that passed by later on.
- Keiichi while hopped up on adrenaline may have panicked when he didn't see his hole right away, causing him to bike home and grab a shovel while leaving the corpse close to the road (remember that the story is now more/less told in Keiichi's perspective so like Onigafuchi-hen, things may be exaggerated due to Kei-chan's unstable state of mind).

How this leads to Takano:
Takano was making her way to the festival when she happens upon deep gouges through the rain in the road. Suspicious, she backs her car up maybe 500m-1Km away from the gouges and checks the surrounding area. Finding a freshly killed Satoko's Uncle, she suspects the murderer would not just leave the body out in the open like that, so she hides and observes. Keiichi comes back with a shovel, completely unaware of his surroundings he digs a grave for Satoko's uncle. Meanwhile, Takano has had enough and thusly gets into her car and drives away causing Keiichi to panic. And then fast forward to their encounter, that would be a way that she may know about Keiichi's crime.

of course this doesn't explain why her trunk is full, but we shall see if it really is Tomitake in the trunk next episode :p

Keiichi was anything but stellar in his murder, he could have well used that shovel as a murder weapon instead and from what we learn in WWII trench warfare, shovels make good decapitation tools. It simply wasn't the perfect murder when he pulled it off because of so many holes at which he could be discovered by someone.

If Keiichi was being picked on at his old school, might he not have snapped, like Rena did at her old school, forcing a move to the new school? Perhaps this was the reason for the flashback, and we just didn't get the whole story?

like someone already said (Sushi-Y?) I think those flashbacks served more to illustrate the bond between him and his new friends. Back in his old school, Keiichi looked like he got ridiculed for being top of the class, and subsequently was subjected to the dead-rat incident which probably loosened some bolts up there. However, it's not uncommon for students that have been bullied to transfer to anoteh school altogether. The fact of the matter is, his new friends don't care about his grades or whatever, they like keiichi for himself, and thusly he feels that he should do something when one of his friends are in a bad situation.

I suspect Takano though to be one of the main players in the Oyashiro-sama curse. I also suspect Oiishi may have a hand in it too. it's apparent that in both the first chapter and this one, Keiichi gets off his rocker a little while after talking to Takano about the curse. In the first chapter, this was aided along by Oiishi, not too sure about his part in this chapter but I guess we shall see. Irie also comes to mind as a possible suspect since if he gets rid of Keiichi, he'd have Satoko all to himself basically.

Then again, I could be making all of this up :p it's getting late, my mind plays tricks on me.

ApathyEcstasy

2006-06-18, 06:43

Well maybe it's just me but I thought he did a pretty poor job comitting the "perfect murder"; any murder that requires that much back and forth movement has to be poorly planned...
I would have to say that Takano probably happened along the scene at about the time Keiichi finished clubbing Satoko's uncle to death. This is due to several observations:
- Satoko's Uncle was unseated from his scooter (*cough*vespa*cough*) rather roughly, this would leave at least some deep raking marks on the dirt ground if not pieces of metal, plastic and even reflective glass lying about.
- Satoko's Uncle's scooter was also lying out in the open road as Kei-chan committed the murder, even though the road is pretty quiet, it is still used as evidenced by the car that passed by later on.
- Keiichi while hopped up on adrenaline may have panicked when he didn't see his hole right away, causing him to bike home and grab a shovel while leaving the corpse close to the road (remember that the story is now more/less told in Keiichi's perspective so like Onigafuchi-hen, things may be exaggerated due to Kei-chan's unstable state of mind).

How this leads to Takano:
Takano was making her way to the festival when she happens upon deep gouges through the rain in the road. Suspicious, she backs her car up maybe 500m-1Km away from the gouges and checks the surrounding area. Finding a freshly killed Satoko's Uncle, she suspects the murderer would not just leave the body out in the open like that, so she hides and observes. Keiichi comes back with a shovel, completely unaware of his surroundings he digs a grave for Satoko's uncle. Meanwhile, Takano has had enough and thusly gets into her car and drives away causing Keiichi to panic. And then fast forward to their encounter, that would be a way that she may know about Keiichi's crime.

of course this doesn't explain why her trunk is full, but we shall see if it really is Tomitake in the trunk next episode :p

Keiichi was anything but stellar in his murder, he could have well used that shovel as a murder weapon instead and from what we learn in WWII trench warfare, shovels make good decapitation tools. It simply wasn't the perfect murder when he pulled it off because of so many holes at which he could be discovered by someone.

like someone already said (Sushi-Y?) I think those flashbacks served more to illustrate the bond between him and his new friends. Back in his old school, Keiichi looked like he got ridiculed for being top of the class, and subsequently was subjected to the dead-rat incident which probably loosened some bolts up there. However, it's not uncommon for students that have been bullied to transfer to anoteh school altogether. The fact of the matter is, his new friends don't care about his grades or whatever, they like keiichi for himself, and thusly he feels that he should do something when one of his friends are in a bad situation.

I suspect Takano though to be one of the main players in the Oyashiro-sama curse. I also suspect Oiishi may have a hand in it too. it's apparent that in both the first chapter and this one, Keiichi gets off his rocker a little while after talking to Takano about the curse. In the first chapter, this was aided along by Oiishi, not too sure about his part in this chapter but I guess we shall see. Irie also comes to mind as a possible suspect since if he gets rid of Keiichi, he'd have Satoko all to himself basically.

Then again, I could be making all of this up :p it's getting late, my mind plays tricks on me.

that's an extremely interesting theory

Darklightz

2006-06-18, 11:52

Keios

2006-06-18, 12:20

dreaming

2006-06-18, 12:21

maybe she just want to get keiichi's attention..or something else..

Amaranthine

2006-06-18, 12:31

Um... This doesn't really have anything to do with ep 11 and I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before, but...

Does anyone know why Mion is always carrying a gun when she's walking with Rena and Keiichi in the evening?

pic (http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/koaser/bscap0055.jpg)

Just wondering... :eyebrow:

It has been answered before, but I don't remember where. It's also been shown in the anime. :p Anyway, you remember at the end of Watanagashi-hen, when Mion(or Shion :/) had a stungun? That's your answer. It's not actually a real gun.

Edit: Here's a picture (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0083349eg.jpg) of it. I just remembered that it had been posted, by Sushi-Y.

You should have posted in the Q&A (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31717) thread as well, but never mind. Now you know if you have any more questions. :)

ApathyEcstasy

2006-06-18, 17:25

Shirobane

2006-06-18, 18:19

XD Cut Keiichi some slack,he's just a young deranged boy and you're all expecting him to commit the perfect crime.I think it's already good that he hought of burying the body and getting rid of the scooter and bat.For a while I thought he would leave the battered body on the road and hope people would blame the "drug addict" again.

Poor Keiichi,it seems like everyone knows everything he does,no matter how well he tries to hide it.Killing the uncle,entering the shrine,having instant noodles for dinner.The guy has no privacy!
But...but he asked his mom for advice in comitting the perfect murder! I guess I was expecting too much, maybe should have asked his mom to commit the murder for him :D

I'm also interested however in the roles of all the other characters in this chapter now that the climax has been reached.

Sushi-Y

2006-06-19, 00:00

wow, that was a great episode! I was a little confused at why they slipped in that montage of Keiichi's past though, what was it meant to show? It seemed fairly random to me.
Here's what the flashback was about in the game: It showed how Keiichi lost interest in his life.

When Keiichi's parents and teachers first discovered that he was highly intelligent, they praised him all the time for his academic achievements.

Until this point, Keiichi was bad or average at just about everything he did, and he spent his days not knowing what's "fun" and what's "boring". In other words, his life was bland.

Realizing that he's found something that he's good at, Keiichi felt a sense of superiority and, for the first time, joy. He was also glad that he was able to make his parents happy, so he tried even harder at school and devoted himself to studying. However, as time passed, Keiichi's accomplishments became a "normal thing". His parents and teachers no longer praise him anymore for his good grades. And his intelligence isolated him from other kids his age. The joy and happiness that came with studying was gone, and all the studying and tutoring became "pathetic" and "boring". In other words, Keiichi's life became bland, again.

(This eventually lead to a certain significant event that caused the Maebara family to move to Hinamizawa. It should be explained in Tsumihoroboshi-hen (hopefully))

That's why, when Keiichi arrived in Hinamizawa and became friends with Rena and the others, he felt like he was saved. When Keiichi first arrived in Hinamizawa, it was nothing but an inconvenient, boring, back-water village to him. However, after meeting Rena and the others, he learned that it's possible to live with fun and surprises everyday, how joy and happiness can come from doing the silliest things with friends, and how smiles can really reflect people's hearts... Basically, Keiichi's daily lives with Rena and the others was, to him, the best days of his life.

That's what the flashback was supposed to be about. This is just from my memory, but that's probably more or less it. ^^;

Well, I still think that it was ridiculous to murder someone on the one night that the police will be out in force looking for a murderer and actually another group of murderers may also be operating. People are suspicious of this night because people disappear on this night and will be vigilant. That's like saying, "Come and catch me 'cuz I'm an idiot." Phone calls can be traced and if someone was at Teppei's house when he received a phone call, then there is another witness. His plan was in his perspective and did not fully take in Teppei's home situation into consideration. Burial of an intact body with the bike and murder weapon in the marsh implies a human suspect that's not the Sonazaki family and can be hunted by the police.

Also, he acted on an impulse to murder Teppei without fully understanding the home situation. No home visits to Satako or anything.

This guy is incapable of providing a good alibi or lie for himself. This type pf person should never commit a murder imo.
If you think about it carefully, you can probably find some holes in Keiichi's logics, but when I played through the game, it seemed to me that he had it planned out quite thoroughly:

- He chose to use Satoshi's bat because it's easy to conceal and light, as well as having a good reach. Also, although it doesn't do as much damage as a bladed weapon, it attracts much less attention. (Rena, take lesson! :heh: )

- He hid Satoshi's bat outside beforehands because he knew the school (forestry preservation building) will be locked during off hours.

- He chose to attack Teppei at the small trail leading to the Houjou residence. The trail only lead to the Houjou house + a few other neighbouring households, so only a small number of people would be using that trail.

- He chose to attack on the night of Watanagashi because he knows that all of the villagers will be at the festival grounds. He also figured that most of the police patrols will be centered around the shrine, since that's where all the people are. Keiichi also figured that Teppei will be staying home for the festival because he's a disliked figure in the village.
Of course, the most important reason is because, on the night of Watanagashi, it's nothing surprising for someone to disappear. The influence of "Oyashirosama's Curse" will make Teppei's disappearance seem more "natural" and less suspicous (After all, a lot of Houjous died on Watanagashi). Besides, nobody will be suspicious if Teppei disappeared again. If not "Oyashirosama's Curse", most people would think he just ran away scared again, like last year.

- Keiichi scouted out the forest landscape surrounding the ambush site and dug a hole at a well-selected spot (unlike the anime, where it was dug out in the open) in preparation for the body.

- He chose to phone Teppei at the school because, of course, it would be stupid to call from home (+ he wouldn't make it back to the ambush site in time). He considered using the payphone, but the village had only one payphone (remember Onikakushi-hen?) and it was too far away as well. In the game, Keiichi was stuck because he forgot that the school door would be locked. But luckily, a forestry worker dropped by to get something, and Keiichi was able to sneak in.

- He knew that Teppei would be coming down on his scooter because he saw it when he visited the Houjou residence the other day (this is also the reason why he pretended to be from "Okinomiya Police", because it's far away enough to warrant using the scooter). Therefore, he knew that it would be difficult for Teppei to avoid an ambush.

- He returned to his house for another shovel NOT because his previous hole was filled (like portrayed in the anime). Rather, he returned to the house because killing Teppei has took longer than he thought (in the game, they ran across the ENTIRE forest, almost reaching the road on the other side). As a result, it was no longer feasible for him to drag the body back to the pre-dug hole. He needed to dig another hole at the murder site, which meant he needed the shovel. But since the sky has completely darkened by then, he wasn't able to locate the well-hidden pre-dug hole in the forest, which was where he left the shovel. So he had to go back to the house to get another shovel, as well as a lantern.

- He took the scooter and the bat and discarded them in the swamp. But not the body, because he thinks there's a possibility that the dead body would float back up.

- He figured the rain would wash away all trails (skid marks, etc.) left back at the ambush site.

The point is, for an impulsive kill, Keiichi has went through a LOT of work covering his tracks (regardless of whether they're actually good or not). Bumping into Takano was Keiichi's only big miss. The anime didn't bother portraying this, but when Keiichi saw Takano, he was actually thinking about killing her too.

...Well, maybe I'll let the next episode do the talking. :heh:

I'm also interested however in the roles of all the other characters in this chapter now that the climax has been reached.
Who said that was the climax? ;)

kj1980

2006-06-19, 00:46

I'm also interested however in the roles of all the other characters in this chapter now that the climax has been reached.

If you think that was the climax for this chapter, oh just wait till the end of this chapter to be blown away on whatever you thought you knew about this story.

keke

2006-06-19, 04:48

I'm very interested in Irie's involvement in this chapter. Because for all we know, he was involved in Onikakushi-hen. I don't know his motives for either of the chapters, really, but I feel he's a highly suspicious character, and not just because his name was given in Onikakushi. My spotty theory is this:

Irie is basically the town's doctor. So when the Maebara family moved to Hinamizawa, he would be given their previous medical records. K1 being an amazing child, may have that noted in his record, especially how he thinks differently than others. This was shown in the flashback on how he was highly intelligent, but was not able to apply it unless given the right push/motivation.

This is very interesting, because it could have given Irie insight on how to manipulate K1 because of his abnormal thinking patterns.

So using one of K1's close friends, Satako, who he's already had a previous relationship with, he could guide K1. Notice how Satako emerges from Irie's car abused, but we are never shown any proof that it was actually her uncle who did it or when it actually happened. Would she continue to be in that state from the point where she left the house, went to the store, walked back home, picked up by Irie, and driven home? But none of this explains the Manager's motives.

Freakman

2006-06-19, 06:37

Kj : 時々あれは都合いいな展開と思うこともあるんだけど。。。

Shirobane

2006-06-19, 08:36

Who said that was the climax? ;)

If you think that was the climax for this chapter, oh just wait till the end of this chapter to be blown away on whatever you thought you knew about this story.

Eeeeexcelent, I'll be looking forward to the end of the chapter then :heh:

Shiroth

2006-06-19, 10:02

I found Miyo to be just a lil' bit scary in Watanagashi-hen, but boy oh boy.. knowing about the murder in Tatarigoroshi-hen.. she's one of a strange character.

I have to say the whole episode was nicely done.. kept the feeling from the game, loved the music.

rocket

2006-06-19, 11:40

Great intense episode.

Kei'schi's now 'snapped' once per chapter.
1. Delusions of persecution driving him to murder/suicide.
2. Delusions of ghosts driving him to suicide.
3. Deranged idea that murder is the best way to protect a friend.

And what else is common in all three scenarios? Besides Tanako beiong the creepiest woman alive I mean... (^_-)

Keiichi imitates or follows the pattern of Satoshi.
1. In his relationshiop with Rena becoming more distant
2. In his *lack* of relationship with Mion, not seeing past her tomboyish side and possibly developing a realationship with Shion instead.
3. In his murder to 'protect' Satoko.

This guy is incapable of providing a good alibi or lie for himself. This type pf person should never commit a murder imo.

(O.o) Normally I'd say *nobody* should ever commit a murder! ^_^;;

I don't really sympathize with Satako as much as you guys do. If she's under a delusion that suffering will bring back her big brother, then suffer away kid. She's got a huge psych problem and playing the "victim" may be a part of it. (Another way to get those bruises is that she is doing it to herself. The flashbacks so far never showed Teppei or someone else abusing her. She also could have intentionally done something to aggravate Teppei and let herself be "found" by Irie to be brought home to "witness" this guy's outburst.) She's got to want help and she doesn't so intervening will only bring problems for yourself.

If you look at the bruise pattern in ep. 10, it looks suspicious for self-inflicted wounds. Left side of neck: If it was strangulation, it should have been more circumferential. Left outer arm: If you're pushed against something, the wound should have been on the left shoulder and attempting to deflect an incoming blow should have left a wound on her left forearm. Right inner thigh: I don't thnk that an offensive blow can cause this type of an injury. It should have been right outer thigh. If she was being immobilized, then the wounds should have been on the left thigh also.

Also, her behaviour with regards to these wounds is suspicious. Usually, you would try to hide them and not wear shorts and sleeveless clothes.

Placement of the injuries is also suspicious. They are in places that heal well and allow her the ability to have social interactions, sparing her face.

Combining all of this with this TIPS post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=584759&postcount=56) is making the chances of her being abused by Teppei slim imo.

Actually after this chapter I was thinking a very similliar thing. Besides the good points made above, there's these little tidbits to consider about Satako:

1. Keichi's being manipulated very nicely by Satako, first she's the one who comes to kae care of him. Then it's revealled she has a deep need for an older brother figure, then just as Keiichi's confortable in that role she shut him out to the point where she can't stand to be touched by him. It may be honest, but if it were faked it would be hard to imagine a more effective way to rouse Keiichi's chivalrous nature.
2. In the TIPS there's talk of why Satoko's traps are so effective - because she has such keen understanding of her target's psychology. She can predict how he will react, even many steps ahead and even if the target is on gurad. Shounds liek the kind of skill level you would need to pull off a manipulation like the one above.
3. Also in the TIPS, Irie talks about Satoko's motivation in setting traps - how they are a way of getting attention and having people's reactions prove the how they feel about her. Immature perhaps, but if this is the way she thinks, what could prove the depth's of Keiichi's affection more than if he were to commit murder for her? Perhaps she had manipulated Satoshi as well?

Probally I'm way off base here given how popular (mysteriously) Satoko seems to be, but then again, I still can't reconcile who I think of as Mion with the crazed murderess of the last chapter.

Possesed by something - be it demons, cicadas, or a good old fashioned bonk to the head - all of our favorite characters have been turderd into murdering monsters and we're no closer to understanding why... (>_<)

LostBlue

2006-06-19, 12:09

にぱ~☆
First post!

Just finish reading Tatarigoroshi in the Sound Novel... and yea... you've seen nothing yet. This EP is just the tip of the iceberg. I have no idea how they're going to sum up the rest of the story in two EPs. I sincerely hope they do not cut out the"interview"... Reading that at 2AM wasn't good for my mind. メチャこわぁ～

I haven't gotten to the Kai arcs yet so I'm still in the dark to what really is happening in the story and probably still am missing the subtle clues, but I think the anime has done a superb job in covering lots of ground in a small amount of time. I do agree they should have gone through K1's monologue rather than a silent flashback. It would fit the suspense/horror mood better, b/c K1 isn't exactly sane especially when comparing his thoughts prepping for the murder, and post murder.

His whole thing with the "perfect" murder is that he wanted to create a situation where there was no beginning. If there is no beginning the there is no investigation.

The example of a perfect murder (from his mother) was a son who went to visit his father who lived deep within a forest. They get into a quarell and the son brutally guts the father with an axe. Looks far from a perfect murder as there is no "trick" but the situation was ideal. No one will question the disappearance of the father. Same with Teppei. No one will question his sudden disappearance as he already has a history of running off. People know that he is afraid of the curse. So if he ran off on the night of the festival no one will question this or at least K1 thinks. Oishi and the rest of the police force will definitely see this as suspicious. So will Takano (regardless whether K1 met up with her or not) and most likely Mion as well. But with Takano, if K1 didn't meet with Takano has no reason to deal with her (and most likely she will not report it anyways). Mion on the other hand might cover for K1 (just imo from gut feeling of her character). Oishi and the rest of the police force might have a suspicion of murder but have no reason to question K1 especially when the possibility is more likely Teppei ran away.

Going off topic here... (the below really doesn't have to do much with the story just my thoughts of the characters' personalities and some random thoughts of the crime commited. Using Spoiler tags to be safe with forum rules although I don't think the info here adds much :) )

It'll be interesting if K1 didn't meet Takano. From the previous Arc we know Takano talks to Shion. Shion does seem to have a sense of justice so she might report him especially since she doesn't have the strong connection to him in this arc and questionably little sympathy to Satoko... but than as a Sonozaki, she isn't comfortable talking to Oishi either...

Also with Mion... Even if she doesn't talk, Rena is quite perspective and might figure it out on her own by observing the two. K1 isn't the best at keeping a secrete. Rena imo has a really strong sense of justice and might try to convince K1 to turn himself in... or go to Oyashiro-sama mode

But K1 doesn't know these two sides of those characters in this arc so he couldn't have plan for that.

All-in-all, K1's plan does have a lot of holes. I doubt he knows this but, b/c of Sonozaki pressure from the past years, the Police force in this already small section of the county are limited in their resources. The only strong lead they can go on is the phone call from the school which doesn't say much. The school building isn't really for the school but rented space from the county's preservation office. The finger will be pointed to an adult more likely than a student, possibly a worker or a teacher. Even if K1 forgot to wipe his prints off the phone he could just go in the next school day saying he needs to call his mom or something. Or knowing his "speech" skills, he might convince the children to play a game where to use phone in the office or use it in some sort of penalty. There's lots of ways to cover himself there. As for his alibi... うふっふっふ　:D They all had no idea

Last comment, I don't remember the game or the anime saying this, but I think there was another reason why I think he choose a bat for the murder weapon. It was because it was Satoshi's bat. A few things can be led from this. Even if the cops figure out that a murder took place and finds the bat, the murderer could have been Satoshi (whose still missing) or a copy-cat who broke in the school (making the call and taking the bat) wanting to replicate last year's murder. Teppei wasn't the most liked character so really this could have been any number of people. What doesn't help the police is that last year's murderer (who was caught) confessed to murdering the mother b/c he heard of the curses/wrath and wanted to copy them. Again there is very little reason to point the finger to K1. He's been in this town less than a few weeks (I think 2 months). The likelihood that he knew all of this info is unlikely from a police perceptive.