The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll [2006 TV ep. 13]

[xris]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Suzumiya Haruhi (also know as The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya).

Thread Guidelines
No telling or asking for RAWs.
Try to keep spoilers from the Novel or Manga out of the anime thread. If you need to in reply to someone with a reference to the Novel / Manga, either PM them or use Spoiler tags (see example below).
Discuss your expectations of the episode if not aired.
Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Try to keep the discussion on topic and future episode spoilers out of the thread whenever possible.


Spoiler Tag Usage

Using Spoiler Tags is easy. Using this...

Nobody ever clicks these spoiler examples.

....will get you this...

Nobody ever clicks these spoiler examples.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2696/kitty36wi.gif (c) Catgirls Fun Captions Inc

[arcticphoenix16]

time for some ESP action! go go bent spoon :D

[Biswa]

But this is going to be the actual episode 5, right? I wonder if there'll be some important stuff plot wise then... but it feels kind of disappointing because we already know how much development there has been. Then again, i can't really tell.

P.S. I like the spoiler tag.

[panzerfan]

This episode follows the novel closely...
I like the shinjin part. Some people might find this episode to be conversation-heavy but it's vital as this actually explains the organization's part in the whole picture surrounding Haruhi.
Haruhi's "soliloquy" takes quite a life of its own with the calculator crunch... I am really impressed.
The train scene for some reason brings me back to Tokyo Love Story. The Dopplar Effect of the train passing by though slips out of my mind.

Next episode will continue onward with Yuutsu.

[Prodigious]

Little Haruhi is officially the cutest thing in animation history.

[Omniscient]

Episode 13 Screencaps and Summary (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2006/06/25/suzumiya-haruhi-no-yuuutsu-13/)

Quite a heavy dialogue episode, which isn't to say that I didn't like it. The parts with Haruhi talking about how she felt insignificant were more interesting to me than Itsuki going on about the anthropic principle. And this episode finally answers the question of what the blue thing seen all the way back during the baseball episode was.

[rain...]

Quite a heavy dialogue episode this time. I was wondering why there were so few screens in the 2ch thread. Anyway, a big question about how Haruhi's current personality came about is explained, The rest of the episode focuses on Itsuki explaining to Kyon how his organization deals with the Suzumiya situation at the moment.

The only action in the episode is the battle between Itsuki/colleagues and 'the big guy'. I thought the battle was too short at first. After rewatching it still felt a bit short, but it does show how fast paced the battle was. I really wanted some detailed ESP action! ...sorry no bent spoons, just some shots Itsuki flying about :P

Wah! No Tsuruya! And to mention, no Mikuru too! well, except the preview... Yuki only made a short 30 sec appearance...

[monstert]

Wait, next episode is the last episode already?

[Pakxenon]

I post teh comment I made on RC:

Little Haruhi is sooo cute!!!!!!!! I loved the piano piece that went with it.

And that battle with the Shinjin was quite fast, just like it is in the novel. I find the novel more thrilling to read than this episode, including better scenes of Haruhi’s dialogue and Itsuki’s dialogue - it was suppose to be after sunset in the book for me, which felt better than sunset.

The animation on the highway is superb, however, but it’s kinda paradoxal how short the aftertrip was, and I’ve never seen Japanese highways, so I don’t know if they look like that or not. Reminds me of The Matrix. :)

[The Sphinx]

It's surprising how little actually happens in this episode. We do get a couple major developments in the plot (it's the first time we hear Haruhi try to explain her attitude about life to Kyon, and we also see the Sealed Realities and a demonstration of Itsuki's power). The apartment building stuff is pretty slow- Haruhi is pushy and obsessive, Kyon suffers silently. It doesn't help that we already know Haruhi's search for Asakura is pointless. They might have been able to cut out this portion of the story entirely.

Haruhi's backstory is very well done. KyoAni has done a good job of illustrating abstract ideas, starting with Yuki's explanation of the Integrated Data Sentient Entity in (chronological) Episode 3. I liked seeing little Haruhi juxtaposed against the hundreds and thousands of people walking past the screen. I wish we could have seen her family...

Unfortunately the anime seems to grind to a halt whenever Itsuki opens his mouth. He had a lot to explain in the car, it's important to the story, but it just isn't engaging. This is the first time I've ever wanted to fast-forward through part of the show (that includes the three minutes of Yuki reading in Episode 9- the voice performances in that scene kept me interested). It didn't help that I already knew what Itsuki was going to say. People who haven't read the novels may be more interested.

The Sealed Reality portion was well done, it matched up almost exactly with the way I had pictured it. I wish they could have made it last a little longer, spent a little more time showing the destructive powers of the shinjin, but what they did gets the job done. It's strange that they waited so long to really explain Sealed Reality and the shinjin considering how important they are to explain the motivations of everyone except Haruhi.

Only one more week to go. Sorta sad to see the end.

[RiXeD]

Little Haruhi is officially the cutest thing in animation history.


I officialy promote you to level 50 and give you 'Genius' title. Over and out.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I'm going to have to wait for the sub to really understand all the talk, but one thing is for sure:Little Haruhi is officially the cutest thing in animation history.Not just little Haruhi, but that whole sequence, with Hirano Aya's wonderful, wonderful voice work, just ripped my heart out. I found big Haruhi pretty attractive, too.

I thought KyoAni kept the taxi ride interesting with the amazing stuff they did through the taxi windows: the artful sunset sky and buildings behind and to the right of Kyon; the concrete posts flipping by; the amaaazing view through the windows of the truck behind and to Itsuki's right; the slight distortion of the reflection of Itsuki's profile in the window; the five layers of buildings they had going by at one point; the perfect slow pacing of things passing by the window.

[arias]

I'm going to have to wait for the sub to really understand all the talk, but one thing is for sure:Not just little Haruhi, but that whole sequence, with Hirano Aya's wonderful, wonderful voice work, just ripped my heart out. I found big Haruhi pretty attractive, too.

It took you 13 freaking episodes to notice that? :twitch: :heh: :D


Anyway, the episode was quite a disappointment; simply because it wasn't engaging enough for me. True, these are crucial plot points and will be even more important for the final episode... but, well. Personally, it's the episode lowest in entertainment in this whole series, for me. I don't know if it could have been done much better, simply because the subject matter is in itself not arousing material.

Oh yes, the discordant strings during the conversation with the oyaji in Asukara's apartment building.. was horrible. Sure, you can pull it off when very appropriately used in context with a clever performance, but that was just.. bad. It just deflated any momentum and created the wrong sort of atmosphere.

However though, I have MASSIVE expectations for the final episode. Onwards!

[Noppapana]

when was it released ?
perhaps a little question
from which chapter is this ep ?

[dxgarten]

Episode 13 screencaps and review (http://www.designchronicle.com/memento/archives/suzumiya_haruhi_no_yuuutsu_ep13.html)

This one is not as exciting as last week but it's still interesting nevertheless. The shinjin looks cool and the gregorian chants that plays during its appearance was a music I'd like to have

[dkellis]

Very "talky" episode, like episode 5. Not much happening, but lots of explanations.

After a run-through, I didn't notice any hidden surprises or Easter Eggs in the episode, so I suppose I'll just fast-forward through them when I rewatch the series. It's the sort of episode you watch once to get the information, and then never have to watch again for the interesting scenes. (Well, some scenes might be worth rewatching: Little Haruhi and Monkeyball Itsuki, for example, but not much else.)

Not saying that it's bad. It's necessary, and I accept the necessity, but it's still not a very ZOMG-AMAZING episode.

[C.A.]

Hmmm actually Yuuutsu VI is my 2nd favourite chapter in Yuuutsu, With Yuuutsu VII being my favourite and Yuuutsu 5 being my 3rd. I felt really connected with this chapter when I read it.

This chapter is really long, I know that, but the anime really left out alot of details this time. Though the most important parts, Haruhi telling her past and Itsuki's conversation with Kyon are very well presented.

A large chunk of the novel wasn't included after they went into the closed space. They skipped alot of Kyon's observations, since they didn't show how they got onto the roof of the building etc. They didn't present the silence and lifelessness of the closed space well enough. Because of this, the effects which should happen when the close space collapses didn't deliver itself. It was supposed to appear really loud and sudden because of the silence before. Also Imouto-chan is supposed to appear as well.

This chapter was really intriguing for me because it ponders existance and reality. I was drawn by Haruhi's words and Itsuki bringing up the Anthropic Principle and why things are happening around Haruhi, Kyon's importance etc. Then, the concept of a parallel dimension and how it is linked to Haruhi was really amazing when I first read about it, I was really blown away by it.

I wanted to give this episode a 7 and maybe even 6, but I'll leave it at 8, simply because I loved this chapter.

Bonus: Haruhi isolated herself in the credits and also getting really frustrated with Kyon in the preview, really builds up for the last episode.

[Major Kerina]

Kinda calm before the storm. Still very good. Now if only I could understand Japanese.

[Vexx]

This is the first series in quite a while for me that the subbers maintained such a tight release schedule so that the sub watchers were never very far behind the raw appreciaters. They deserve as many gold stars and "free intarwebs" as I can find.

[Major Kerina]

Agreed. Afk especially. Sure they occasionally have a ? instead of a period, an ing instead of ed and a missing s here and there (stuff you notice watching the tenth time through) but for, nearly on the dot, two days work each time I am handily and overwhelmingly impressed. *applauds the subbing efforts thus far*

Kudos should also go to the novel translators.

[Sushi-Y]

This chapter is really long, I know that, but the anime really left out alot of details this time. Though the most important parts, Haruhi telling her past and Itsuki's conversation with Kyon are very well presented.

A large chunk of the novel wasn't included after they went into the closed space. They skipped alot of Kyon's observations, since they didn't show how they got onto the roof of the building etc. They didn't present the silence and lifelessness of the closed space well enough. Because of this, the effects which should happen when the close space collapses didn't deliver itself. It was supposed to appear really loud and sudden because of the silence before. Also Imouto-chan is supposed to appear as well.
Think about it in reverse: would you rather have them cut out parts from Haruhi's confession or Koizumi's explanation just so they can show "Kyon and Koizumi walking to a building rooftop" or "Kyon describing an environment that we can see for ourselves"?

Same for Higurashi, it's easy to notice the parts that were left out and not notice how the episode is already packed with contents as it is.

Having said that, I think both Haruhi's confession about herself and Koizumi's long-winded theory (this IS his turn for denpa-talk, after all) were nicely done. Even through Koizumi's talk, which can either intrigue you or totally bore you, the anime was kept "moving" by various small things happening outside the car (cars passing by, potrayals of traffics).
(I'm happy to see they made Arakawa-san the driver :heh: )

=====================
Anyway, next week is the final episode, and then this festival will come to an end too. :uhoh:

I laughed at the preview (for those who get it):
Haruhi: "次回、涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱第6話！"
Kyon: "違う、次回涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱第14話、涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱Ⅵ。　じゃまたな"
Haruhi: "お風呂入れよ、歯磨けよー" Kyon: "私たち普通の女の子に戻ります" :heh:
Haruhi: "我がSOS団は永久に不滅でーす！" Kyon: "来週も見てくださいね(?) ジャンケンポン"
Haruhi: "バカー!" Kyon: "あ、見えねっ" :heh:

[C.A.]

Think about it in reverse: would you rather have them cut out parts from Haruhi's confession or Koizumi's explanation just so they can show "Kyon and Koizumi walking to a building rooftop" or "Kyon describing an environment that we can see for ourselves"?

Same for Higurashi, it's easy to notice the parts that were left out and not notice how the episode is already packed with contents as it is.They need not cut any of the material shown in this episode, but if they did the same to this episode as episode 10. I'm sure by removing the OP, the extra 1 minute plus will be more than enough to show more of Kyon's observations.

Importantly they fail to show how silent the space is. Kyon mentioned that the silence made their voice sound very clear and its very uncomfortable. The inclusion of a bgm in the closed space before the shinjin appears wasn't a good choice. But I must say that the actions of the shinjin was extremely well done and its bgm was great.

Also I was actually surprised to see a car in the closed space, because its mentioned in the novel that there was no vehicles.

[Sushi-Y]

They need not cut any of the material shown in this episode, but if they did the same to this episode as episode 10. I'm sure by removing the OP, the extra 1 minute plus will be more than enough to show more of Kyon's observations.
It's not standard practice to remove OP/EDs unless there's a very good reason for it (to give the episode a dramatic/movie feel, for example). They're not normally "expendable" segments.

Importantly they fail to show how silent the space is. Kyon mentioned that the silence made their voice sound very clear and its very uncomfortable. The inclusion of a bgm in the closed space before the shinjin appears wasn't a good choice. But I must say that the actions of the shinjin was extremely well done and its bgm was great.
Sure, Kyon's description of the place is important in the novel, because we can't see the space for ourselves. But since the environment is presented visually in the anime, Kyoani probably deemed it to be unnessary for Kyon to be blabbing away at things (like how "the world turned gray" or "all the people are gone") that we can see for ourselves.

Of course, it'd be nice to hear what Kyon's thinking, as well as more emphasis on the "silence", but it's nothing critical. It wouldn't be fair to expect Kyoani to deliver everything all the time.

Also I was actually surprised to see a car in the closed space, because its mentioned in the novel that there was no vehicles.
The cars are still there, they're just not moving (走り出す車も一台もなかった).

[C.A.]

Well, throughout the show, we already know that there's alot of material that were not shown, but this episode lacks a little more. The silence can be easily emphasized by not having a bgm while they are talking in the closed space, make their voices echo a little, the bgm can then come with the shinjin and be silent again after the battle. Then at least when Itsuki wants to show Kyon the magic, the returning of the the street sounds would at least sound more powerful.

I'm not sure, maybe its my visualisations of the closed space when I read the novel thats causing me to think in such ways.

Anyway I checked about the car:

Japanese version: There's not a single car moving.
Chinese version: There's not a single car moving on the road.
Bakatsuki English version: There's not a single vehicle on the road.

Translation errors maybe?

[Kenshinyoh]

noooo just one more T_T

[Pakxenon]

I'll have to wait for this to be subbed before rating it. Right now it's sitting at a 7-9. ><

I thought the piano really brought out Haruhi's monologue, but Itsuki's part was disappointing, especially with the Closed Space. I also blame that it was still sunset and the streets weren't crowded. :(

[PhantomX]

The music was real nice throughout this episode excluding the part at Asakura's apartment complex.

[Major Kerina]

I liked the music there, very Hitchcockian in theme, disharmonious.

[rain...]

Gave the episode an 8. For me, what made out for long conversations were the good execution of the accompanying music. Especially made the scenes with Itsuki a lot less draggy.

I noticed that Arakawa was the cab driver - I'm pretty sure that's him right?
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/5049/snapshot200606260445227mp.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200606260445227mp.jpg)

[Pakxenon]

Yeah... it was weird how the taxi driver can hear what they're saying and not comment when I was reading the translations. I guess KyoAni just solved it right there, as well as because they showed Remote Island Syndrome already, people now know. o_O

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Yeah... it was weird how the taxi driver can hear what they're saying and not comment when I was reading the translations. I guess KyoAni just solved it right there, as well as because they showed Remote Island Syndrome already, people now know. o_O
Actually, the novel has already pointed out that the driver is working for Itsuki's organisation, when they left the cab without needing to pay for the trip.

[Major Kerina]

Someone posted an analysis on a couple of blogs for Haruhi which I was really struck by although with episode 13 stuff I haven't watched yet but from what I've seen, it really clicks for me


"Haruhi simply wants her life to be extraordinary and fun. It's hard to be
excited about life when your day to day life consists of doing the same thing
over and over again. However, in the process of looking for an extraordinary
life, Haruhi ends up ignoring the possibilities that ordinary life could also
be fun from time to time. The irony of this, just like Kyon said at one time,
the happiness she's looking for is actually right in front of her all of these
times. She meets the alien, the time traveler, and the ESP user almost every
single day. However, because deep down she believes that these people do not
exist, she is unable to notice them. The implication of this message is
actually rather sad because it means that unless one believes that they can be
happy then it's likely that they'll never be happy.

This is the reason why the series is called The Melancholy of Suzumiya
Haruhi. Because at its core, this is a story about a girl who is unhappy
with her life. The story suggests that she probably possesses the power to change the world through her sheer wish but since she does not realise it, she does not derive satisfaction out of it. I can't help but thinking how this is
actually a metaphor about how people often don't realise the power that they
have to realize their own wish. The good thing about Haruhi is that she tries
her best to realize her wish. The problem is, sometimes she does not believe
that her attempt and ability will produce something special when she thinks her
wish is unreachable to begin with."

and also

"Personally, I have experienced first-hand before what Haruhi has said in this episode as there was a time before anime where I’d start thinking about completely normal stuff and then my mind’s tends to wander and soon, I’d be asking questions like Haruhi did. Asking the same existentialism questions as Haruhi does put you in a state of high melancholy, and is why I think the series’ name is aptly selected from the titles in the books.

This episode gives a very deep insight into Haruhi’s personality and her actions stem from her questions about herself and the meaning of life. The english saying, “There Is A Fine Line Between Genius And Insanity” is undoubtly suited for her as she has proven herself to be a talented person from the earlier episodes, and we can see here that Haruhi is definitely much more than just a costume-rapist and a UFO freak.

While Haruhi provides an explanation for the source of her melancholy and her actions, it is Itsuki who reveals the true inner feelings of Haruhi’s current self, struggling against her desire to have “fun” (the id) and the common sense indoctrined in to her (the superego), explaning the reason of such ludicrous situation of which she is in right now, being surrounded by the very people she is desperately trying to meet, yet clueless about their existance at all. In a sense, Haruhi is just a very smart, yet insecure person, facing a constant battle among her id of which the Shinjins are an appropriate representation, and her superego which is Itsuki’s Organization, ironically generated by her own desires."

[M.D. Geist]

It's not standard practice to remove OP/EDs unless there's a very good reason for it (to give the episode a dramatic/movie feel, for example). They're not normally "expendable" segments.


This made me wonder...
I couldn´t name any other anime which did that.

The kinda random episode order is another unique thing Haruhi has to offer...

Or I haven´t watched enough anime yet ^^

[Sheba]

This made me wonder...
I couldn´t name any other anime which did that.

The kinda random episode order is another unique thing Haruhi has to offer...

Or I haven´t watched enough anime yet ^^

Gungrave did it, for the final episode.

[Lost]

Mai HiME and Otome did it too, for the last episodes.

I didnt see any indication as to this in the previous posts; so, may I ask what chapter of the novel is this episode taken from?

[C.A.]

Mai HiME and Otome did it too, for the last episodes.

I didnt see any indication as to this in the previous posts; so, may I ask what chapter of the novel is this episode taken from?
Chapter 6 of novel 1, a very long chapter. So long, kyoani had to spread this chapter over 2 episodes

[Lost]

Thank you :D I see, so #13 and #14 would be from the same chapter? From what I've read on this thread, fitting that they chose to end this season with this chapter.

[C.A.]

Thank you :D I see, so #13 and #14 would be from the same chapter? From what I've read on this thread, fitting that they chose to end this season with this chapter.Hmmm here's a list of how the prologue and 7 chapters are spread over the 6 episodes:

prologue + chapter 1 + chapter 2 = Episode 2
chapter 2 + chapter 3 = Episode 3
chapter 2 + chapter 3 + chapter 4 = Episode 5
chapter 5 + chapter 6 = Episode 10
chapter 6 = Episode 13
chapter 7 + epilogue(most probably) = Episode 14

[Lost]

O.o Ah... gomen. So episode ten is really #4, and episode thirteen is really #5; both of them are linked. Makes sense now. Dang this shuffling gets to me all the time. :heh:

[Biswa]

Definitely need to give a lot of support to the subbers for especially a dialogue heavy anime. So far the subbing has been beautiful and well articulated, so it really matched the tone of the voice. Only a couple more episodes for them to go, but it's been crazy. Looking very forward to this episode, but can wait indefinitely.
So how many episodes exactly to go? (i.e. how long is this show)

[C.A.]

Definitely need to give a lot of support to the subbers for especially a dialogue heavy anime. So far the subbing has been beautiful and well articulated, so it really matched the tone of the voice. Only a couple more episodes for them to go, but it's been crazy. Looking very forward to this episode, but can wait indefinitely.
So how many episodes exactly to go? (i.e. how long is this show)Next episode, 14 = last episode lol

[SweetHoney]

I must say my probaly fav part of this episode must have been this part

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/29/noyuuutsu1312lg9qn.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noyuuutsu1312lg9qn.jpg)

Where Haruhi was on that swing going back and fourth I so loved that scene though it was sad poor Haruhi

[Lost]

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/29/noyuuutsu1312lg9qn.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noyuuutsu1312lg9qn.jpg)
ZOMG Wallpaper!!!

Caught the RAW. Feels like a pretty mellow episode; Haruhi has been showing alot of her serious self lately and I like that. The bgm for this episode was spot-on, very much liked the one that played during Haruhi's monologue and the one at the appearance of Protoplasm Man. And this has to be the best Traffic Animation I've seen in an Anime; I think I spotted my dream car

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/1654/14dn2.th.jpg (http://img485.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14dn2.jpg)
http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/5034/26du.th.jpg (http://img485.imageshack.us/my.php?image=26du.jpg)

[nadare]

ZOMG Wallpaper!!!

Caught the RAW. Feels like a pretty mellow episode; Haruhi has been showing alot of her serious self lately and I like that. The bgm for this episode was spot-on, very much liked the one that played during Haruhi's monologue and the one at the appearance of Protoplasm Man. And this has to be the best Traffic Animation I've seen in an Anime; I think I spotted my dream car

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/1654/14dn2.th.jpg (http://img485.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14dn2.jpg)
http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/5034/26du.th.jpg (http://img485.imageshack.us/my.php?image=26du.jpg)

have you noticed that there was no one driving that car?

[Lost]

Really? The interior is pretty dark..

[Kaioshin Sama]

have you noticed that there was no one driving that car?


OMG Man there's noone driving that car! Must be in Florida.

[Zangetsu]

so am guessing "ep 13" has already aired ¬_¬, and i cant find the torrent anywere T_T i need help

[Zangetsu]

ic, tanx ^_^''

[Vexx]

If ya'll will wait a few more hours.... the Yuki-like fansubbers of this series will have it out barring floods and ... well, floods seem to be good enough here in the U.S. (nope, no problem with weather here -*cough* bs *cough*)
Except for the parts in multiple heat wave/drought status ... like where I'm at.

[Gene Yuss]

SUB IS OUT!!!
http://a.scarywater.net/afk/

[Vexx]

I stand corrected.... "a few more MINUTES" is what I should have said.... :)

[npal]

Well, banning BC clients somehow sped up my download :p What do you know... :p Some minutes to go :D

[M.D. Geist]

imho, this ep has lower rewatch value than other haruhi eps ...

not that much happens in this episode, lotsa talk, lotsa infos

once u understand the infos, its enough ^^

[LCeh]

How should I rate this episode? On one hand, the episode itself was very dialogue-heavy and doesn't have the great scenes that usual Haruhi episodes do, but at the same time, this part was probably very hard to animate since it was so dialogue-heavy. So I would have to say KyoAni did a very good job with what they had to do and what they did.

The explanations are nice, and now we get a lot more info on the character and Koizumi's organization. Also, from the previews, I also see why in the baseball episode Mikuru said "If you become nice to me, that will happen again" now. ;)

Hopefully they can end with a bang, and then make a season 2. :D

EDIT: Decided to give it an 8. "Very good" seems to be the right description of the episode to me.

[C.A.]

How should I rate this episode? On one hand, the episode itself was very dialogue-heavy and doesn't have the great scenes that usual Haruhi episodes do, but at the same time, this part was probably very hard to animate since it was so dialogue-heavy. So I would have to say KyoAni did a very good job with what they had to do and what they did.

The explanations are nice, and now we get a lot more info on the character and Koizumi's organization. Also, from the previews, I also see why in the baseball episode Mikuru said "If you become nice to me, that will happen again" now. ;)

Hopefully they can end with a bang, and then make a season 2. :D

EDIT: Decided to give it an 8. "Very good" seems to be the right description of the episode to me.Yes the show will end with a bang and you haven't yet seen what Mikuru said that really happened lol

Well in the novel, this chapter was really nice to read, but its not the best chapter to animate, besides the battle, which was really too short.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Yes the show will end with a bang and you haven't yet seen what Mikuru said that really happened lol

Well in the novel, this chapter was really nice to read, but its not the best chapter to animate, besides the battle, which was really too short.


I wasn't terribly wowed by that chapter, actually its one of my least favorites. There is no real bang in that one other than the smashy smashy of the giants, and some romantic action with Kyon putting the moves on Haruhi and her being too shocked to move because of it. Then suddenly pop, they are back in the real world with no idea as to whether it actually really happened or if it was a dream other than cryptic dialogue from Ituski and Yuki suggesting it happened but not telling them why, how or what happened. It almost reminds me of that weird Acperience episode of Eureka 7 where Renton and Eureka are trapped in the Correlian and have no way of getting out, Eureka is all depressed and Renton convinces her to come back with him, they embrace (Sort of) and then they are back in the real world having no real idea WTF happened and why or how they got out. I almost think that what closed space is, is a representation of how Haruhi sees the world when she is depressed a cold dark place that she hates because she doesn't fit in, Hence the destruction of the giants is her rage being taken out on the world in her own mind where nobody will get hurt and that Kyon somehow dived into the recesses of her mind that night kind of like in Psychonauts or in that one stage of La Pucelle and had to pull her out of her depression for both of them to escape. I still think Haruhi wants to retreat and withdraw into her own mind where she can be in a world she wants to be in and that she pulled Kyon in that night to stay with her but he ended up rescuing her from her own nightmare instead by letting her know that he and the others care about her and want her to be happy and not to hate the world, and that they won't judge or reject her.

As per the suggestion that Haruhi was creating her own world, I'm not of the I'll believe when I see it happen camp but of the I'll believe it when I see it and know it to be true camp, I still feel closed space is most likely somewhere deep in the recesses of her mind, the sad lonely and angry part that was her dominant personality in the first half of episode 2 and that Kyon is slowly helping to get rid of. The gifting of Itsuki with his esper powers might of been Haruhi's cry for help to get rid of the closed space within her mind and help her break free of her depression and anger.

[vuori]

Itsuki and Kyon sitting in the car on the freeway was rather reminiscent of Tarkovski's film Solaris, where there is a very similar scene long scene with two men riding in a car (though I don't think they ever talked during the ride in the film). I haven't seen the film in a while, but the angles and views outside (particularly the multi-level bridges and intersections) seemed very familiar.

Other scenes in the series (ie. Yuki sitting alone in the clubroom in episode 9) also seem like the producers might be familiar with Tarkovski's films.

[Major Kerina]

Oooo...good point there on Solaris. I really loved this episode. It's clear throughout they know what they're doing in telling story. It's so very well rendered. And btw, I came to Haruhi for the philosophical implications of it all. Not the action set-pieces. So I just ate this all up. I may need to watch it many times to pick apart all the stuff.

[outcast_within]

Kinda calm before the storm. Still very good. Now if only I could understand Japanese.

calm before storm?

wonders about next episode :D

[panzerfan]

My response to Kaioshin_Sama would be...

There's other beings that can generate enclosed space and their respective spaces are 'unique'. Be it snow Mountain or Yuki's barren wasteland. Haruhi is one of such beings that can... (call it reality marble perhaps?) give form to pure 'information' or thought. I am not about to make any guess as to how one gets out of Haruhi's enclosed space just from the enclosed space examples seen thus far.

Haruhi creating her own world is the exact words Itsuki used to describe the nature of that enclosed space when he talks to Kyon during the snow white (and that previous enclosures are just mere exercises). The words used by Nagato is the end of the information eruption and Asahina ... ceased her existence. Kyon's interpretation is more akin to how you see the enclosed space, especially by snow white event.

Koizumi's explainatin is rather popular since he attempts to rationalize his arguments. Asahina refuse to offer that kind of analysis while Nagato's are too abstract to strike a chord effectively. As such, Haruhi as a deity becomes the clearest of all notions in an attempt to reason with it all. I suppose that's part of the reason why Haruhi == God has been shouted all over.

The what is easier to answer.... the why and how are not. Novel makes it clear through kyon's interactions with the sos members that snow white occured and was resolved. You very well can say that snow white's the doing of Haruhi's inner demons just as one can say that it's Kyon showing Haruhi the "blue bird of happiness". Was it from shock and inability to make a decision due to insufficient information that terminated the enclosed space? I am not prepared to make sense of that and slam a conclusion.

[Kaioshin Sama]

My response to Kaioshin_Sama would be...

There's other beings that can generate enclosed space and their respective spaces are 'unique'. Be it snow Mountain or Yuki's barren wasteland. Haruhi is one of such beings that can... (call it reality marble perhaps?) give form to pure 'information' or thought. I am not about to make any guess as to how one gets out of Haruhi's enclosed space just from the enclosed space examples seen thus far.

Haruhi creating her own world is the exact words Itsuki used to describe the nature of that enclosed space when he talks to Kyon during the snow white (and that previous enclosures are just mere exercises). The words used by Nagato is the end of the information eruption and Asahina ... ceased her existence. Kyon's interpretation is more akin to how you see the enclosed space, especially by snow white event.

Koizumi's explainatin is rather popular since he attempts to rationalize his arguments. Asahina refuse to offer that kind of analysis while Nagato's are too abstract to strike a chord effectively. As such, Haruhi as a deity becomes the clearest of all notions in an attempt to reason with it all. I suppose that's part of the reason why Haruhi == God has been shouted all over.

The what is easier to answer.... the why and how are not. Novel makes it clear through kyon's interactions with the sos members that snow white occured and was resolved. You very well can say that snow white's the doing of Haruhi's inner demons just as one can say that it's Kyon showing Haruhi the "blue bird of happiness". Was it from shock and inability to make a decision due to insufficient information that terminated the enclosed space? I am not prepared to make sense of that and slam a conclusion.

Wow I like you and your logical thinking and rationalizion. I think you put things in perspective better than I could have since you've read the novels in Japanese or Chinese and I can't read those languages. I wish there were more like you.

[steelbound]

I found this hard to rate since this episode lacked what I loved about the previous episode but in it's place we we're given the explanation of why Haruhi is Haruhi and the proof of closed space/Itsuki's power, so in the end I gave it a 9.

[clearacell]

I gave it an 8. I knew this wasn't going to be the most interesting episode of the season so I was prepared for that :P. Next episode is going to be great though, it's gonna be a nice ending...and hopefully a hint of there being a 2nd season in the "outro" portion.

[Darklightz]

Now this episode wasn't as fun as usual but we finally got a bit of insight on what the heck is going on.

So 3 years ago a bunch of people realize they're espers with strange powers when in closed spaces.Also 3 years ago the Data Entity sends Asakura and Yuki to the human world to watch Haruhi.And of course 3 years ago was when Haruhi reliazed she wasn't as special as she had though. (she sais it happened at the end of her sixth grade,while middle school lasts 3 years and the series begins during the first year of high school)

Now I"m wondering,did she gain the ability to shape the world,or did she always have that power,except it never manifested itself until the 6th grade because she was happy until then?

Also it's very interesting how Koizumi sort of blamed Kyon for every unnatural events that happened so far.

[Seyluun]

Gave it a 7, this episode may have been a necessary evil but I still felt somewhat cheated of my weekly Haruhi fix.

[Seyluun]

Dp. Oranges are good for you.

[CrowKenobi]

I'm going to give it a 9.
Like others said, plenty of info given to get us up to speed as to what really is going on, but with no "wow" thing to bump up the rating (IMHO). :D
I agree that the fight with the Shinjin<Celestial> was too short and could have been made longer... though it was exactly like novel one's chapter six described.

[Kamui4356]

I have to give this episode a 9. It was very well done, and while it left out a few things was very faithful to the novel. KyoAni did another great job. I'm now looking foward to the last episode even more than I had been. If KyoAni does this good a job with that, I know I won't be disappointed.

Importantly they fail to show how silent the space is. Kyon mentioned that the silence made their voice sound very clear and its very uncomfortable. The inclusion of a bgm in the closed space before the shinjin appears wasn't a good choice. But I must say that the actions of the shinjin was extremely well done and its bgm was great.
That's it! I knew there was something off about that, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it until I read your post. If they had left out the bgm, and made the footsteps and voices more pronounced, it would have been better, and possibly would have gotten a ten from me.
Japanese version: There's not a single car moving.
Chinese version: There's not a single car moving on the road.
Bakatsuki English version: There's not a single vehicle on the road.

Translation errors maybe?
None of those are necessarily errors. The chinese version added the phrase on the road, which isn't wrong. However, it was probably unnecessary. When translated to english from that, moving was left out as unnecessary to the english sentence. That translation would also be correct, though the implication does change from there are cars, but none are moving without specifing if they're parked on the side or on the road, to there is no traffic, but there may or may not be parked cars.

What it shows is be wary of translations. Even if the translation is accurate, there may be some lost or altered meaning. ;)

[C.A.]

I wasn't terribly wowed by that chapter, actually its one of my least favorites. There is no real bang in that one other than the smashy smashy of the giants, and some romantic action with Kyon putting the moves on Haruhi and her being too shocked to move because of it. Then suddenly pop, they are back in the real world with no idea as to whether it actually really happened or if it was a dream other than cryptic dialogue from Ituski and Yuki suggesting it happened but not telling them why, how or what happened. It almost reminds me of that weird Acperience episode of Eureka 7 where Renton and Eureka are trapped in the Correlian and have no way of getting out, Eureka is all depressed and Renton convinces her to come back with him, they embrace (Sort of) and then they are back in the real world having no real idea WTF happened and why or how they got out. I almost think that what closed space is, is a representation of how Haruhi sees the world when she is depressed a cold dark place that she hates because she doesn't fit in, Hence the destruction of the giants is her rage being taken out on the world in her own mind where nobody will get hurt and that Kyon somehow dived into the recesses of her mind that night kind of like in Psychonauts or in that one stage of La Pucelle and had to pull her out of her depression for both of them to escape. I still think Haruhi wants to retreat and withdraw into her own mind where she can be in a world she wants to be in and that she pulled Kyon in that night to stay with her but he ended up rescuing her from her own nightmare instead by letting her know that he and the others care about her and want her to be happy and not to hate the world, and that they won't judge or reject her.

As per the suggestion that Haruhi was creating her own world, I'm not of the I'll believe when I see it happen camp but of the I'll believe it when I see it and know it to be true camp, I still feel closed space is most likely somewhere deep in the recesses of her mind, the sad lonely and angry part that was her dominant personality in the first half of episode 2 and that Kyon is slowly helping to get rid of. The gifting of Itsuki with his esper powers might of been Haruhi's cry for help to get rid of the closed space within her mind and help her break free of her depression and anger.I liked this chapter because of personal reasons and it set me thinking. PM me if you want personal reasons, here are some of the thoughts I had when I read the chapter:Why do humans exist? Why do we have/want to live our lives and die? Does the Anthropic Principle make any sense?

If we humans exist because the Universe allows us to exist, then why are these events going to happen?:

In 5 billion years: Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the entire inner solar system. If we humans still live around the solar system, we would be fried.
Even if we manage to colonise the outer solar system, the supernova coming afterwards would destroy the entire solar system.

Approximately 10 - 15 billion years from now, our nearest neighbouring galaxy, Andromeda will collide into our Milky Way. The central super blackholes will merge, who knows what would happen when the 2 galaxies merge into one. If humans can survive for so long, we probably have to prepare to leave the Milky Way when we can see the Andromeda galaxy without telescopes.

Within 25 billion years, our local galaxy super cluster will be totally destroyed by a single super blackhole that has grown so large over the years, it pulls entire galaxies on contact with its event horizon. When finally every single galaxy in the galaxy cluster and everything within range has been absorbed by the blackhole, something unimaginable will happen: Scientists predict that this black hole unable to feed and sustain itself with further collapse on its own. All the matter in the blackhole will compress into the centre, heat and energy builds up as the blackhole becomes increasingly denser. Until when it finally is unable to hold the immense pressure, it will explode like a small version of the Big Bang, probably destroying a part of the universe, reforming it.

And who knows whether there would be a Big Crunch or Big Freeze at the end.

This is what I learnt from Discovery Channel.I mention these on several forums I visited before and the response I always get is that humans probably won't see these events or we don't have to worry because humans would destroy each other in the near future.

This begs the question even more, why do we exist at all? Since we are so short lived and our existance doesn't matter to the universe. Do we exist so that we can learn that our race will eventually die one day? If thats the case why do we make our lives even more pointless by spending our everyday lives doing the same thing everyday: wake up, brush, eat, school/work, eat, brush, sleep, repeat. Even if we get to live very special lives, we would still die one day and leave everything behind. Why not just kill ourselves now?@Kamui4356: lol I'm glad to know that someone visualised the closed space similar to how I did

[celcius]

Kyon mentioned all the events Haruhi deemed as actions that lost their color in the episode preview. One final clue for ep.14 ending.

[Anime Online]

A very enjoyable episode, it filled out alot of gaps and put some of the puzzle pieces together.

[Argent]

So 3 years ago a bunch of people realize they're espers with strange powers when in closed spaces.Also 3 years ago the Data Entity sends Asakura and Yuki to the human world to watch Haruhi.And of course 3 years ago was when Haruhi reliazed she wasn't as special as she had though. (she sais it happened at the end of her sixth grade,while middle school lasts 3 years and the series begins during the first year of high school)


I used to think this but I was corrected by those who have read all the stories. Something else happens 3 years ago to trigger her. Something we won't see animated until they do a second season.

[Vexx]

I liked this chapter because of personal reasons and it set me thinking. PM me if you want personal reasons, here are some of the thoughts I had when I read the chapter:Why do humans exist? Why do we have/want to live our lives and die? Does the Anthropic Principle make any sense?

If we humans exist because the Universe allows us to exist, then why are these events going to happen?:

In 5 billion years: Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the entire inner solar system. If we humans still live around the solar system, we would be fried.
Even if we manage to colonise the outer solar system, the supernova coming afterwards would destroy the entire solar system.

Approximately 10 - 15 billion years from now, our nearest neighbouring galaxy, Andromeda will collide into our Milky Way. The central super blackholes will merge, who knows what would happen when the 2 galaxies merge into one. If humans can survive for so long, we probably have to prepare to leave the Milky Way when we can see the Andromeda galaxy without telescopes.

Within 25 billion years, our local galaxy super cluster will be totally destroyed by a single super blackhole that has grown so large over the years, it pulls entire galaxies on contact with its event horizon. When finally every single galaxy in the galaxy cluster and everything within range has been absorbed by the blackhole, something unimaginable will happen: Scientists predict that this black hole unable to feed and sustain itself with further collapse on its own. All the matter in the blackhole will compress into the centre, heat and energy builds up as the blackhole becomes increasingly denser. Until when it finally is unable to hold the immense pressure, it will explode like a small version of the Big Bang, probably destroying a part of the universe, reforming it.

And who knows whether there would be a Big Crunch or Big Freeze at the end.

This is what I learnt from Discovery Channel.I mention these on several forums I visited before and the response I always get is that humans probably won't see these events or we don't have to worry because humans would destroy each other in the near future.

This begs the question even more, why do we exist at all? Since we are so short lived and our existance doesn't matter to the universe. Do we exist so that we can learn that our race will eventually die one day? If thats the case why do we make our lives even more pointless by spending our everyday lives doing the same thing everyday: wake up, brush, eat, school/work, eat, brush, sleep, repeat. Even if we get to live very special lives, we would still die one day and leave everything behind. Why not just kill ourselves now?@Kamui4356: lol I'm glad to know that someone visualised the closed space similar to how I did


Nice to see someone else noticing the "Long View"....

In some sense we're remarkable things.... bits of matter that evolved self-awareness. To me that makes the bonds we form all that much more important because thats all we really have in the transience of the moment. Any enduring aspect is pure speculation. 10,000 years from now.... a blink of cosmic time and virtually *everything* we take for granted will be long gone, no one will know our names, or perhaps even that there was a civilization.
Enjoy the moment and grieve for people wrapped up in the small things as if they were big.

[Trax]

I suppose this episode was informative, unfortunately it was also kinda boring overall because of the longwinded explanations. 7/10

[panzerfan]

This begs the question even more, why do we exist at all? Since we are so short lived and our existance doesn't matter to the universe. Do we exist so that we can learn that our race will eventually die one day? If thats the case why do we make our lives even more pointless by spending our everyday lives doing the same thing everyday: wake up, brush, eat, school/work, eat, brush, sleep, repeat. Even if we get to live very special lives, we would still die one day and leave everything behind. Why not just kill ourselves now?

C.A's comment makes me think of this...
I was hit really hard when I found out that even matter, condensed form of energy actually has an incredable amount of 'space' within the atoms that it is made out of. Everything is nothing simutanuously. Is human being by that definition an expression in condensed form of energy or are we more than that? (a cricket and a piece of pebble are all just that... condensed form of energy.

Human does have the convenience of peering into space as the ultimate time machine into the past... but we're so caught up in the present to stare at the stars of the past nowadays, thus negating that advantage. Perhaps this narrow focus on the immediate present is the way that keeps human from thinking of how pointless this short existence is... or maybe by blurring the dream of the stars we're going to doom ourselves with historical blunders coming back to bite us in a big way.

I can't remember who said this or the exact lines but someone once remarked that the existence of self becomes all the more important due to the relative minuteness of humanity to everything else. Being educated from a Cartesian school of thought it's convenient to view self as the absolute pivot and everything relative to it. I enjoy of point of reference even if I know how small a point this is.

[Vexx]

Nice to see someone else noticing the "Long View"....

In some sense we're remarkable things.... bits of matter that evolved self-awareness. To me that makes the bonds we form all that much more important because thats all we really have in the transience of the moment. Any enduring aspect is pure speculation. 10,000 years from now.... a blink of cosmic time and virtually *everything* we take for granted will be long gone, no one will know our names, or perhaps even that there was a civilization.
Enjoy the moment and grieve for people wrapped up in the small things as if they were big.



Actually, this episode makes me think the odds of a second season are higher -- its like the introductory setup for the situation our heroes are in.

[C.A.]

@Vexx and panzerfan: After reading both posts, I had some random thoughts lol

Random thoughts from Vexx's post:

Yes, its very sad that we humans have so much chance, but we are short lived. We could develop all sorts of technology if we are given the time, we would probably be able to escape the Big Crunch/Freeze by sliding through dimensions in the future. We could escape all sorts of cosmic destruction if we had the technology.

But will people continue living happily, 20 billion years in the future? What reason do humans have to continue living? Do humans keep on living just so that the race will carry on? Is there a point to that? Well one thing I can think of is that we can probably spread life all over the universe, but in the end there's still no point in doing that. There's no ultimate point in life.

Random thoughts from panzerfan's:

I love this part of the lyrics from 'Bouken Desho Desho?':Ashita kako ni natta kyou no ima ga kiseki. : The moment tomorrow when today turns from present to past is a miracle.

Tsukamou mirai wo: Let's take hold of the future.This song has beautiful lyrics, very meaningful as well.

Also not sure why but I feel like talking about time travelling, into the future. Time travelling into the future is much easier than going into the past. All we have to do is move, when we move we are already going into the future, how far we are going into the future can be calculated. Following Einstein's theory of relativity, the closer we get to the speed of light, the slower time is relative to us.

e.g.: So if we travel for 6 months in a space ship at 99% the speed of light and return to Earth, 50 years or so would have been passed. There, we travelled into the future.

Also from Discovery Channel, the human who's been furthest into the future is a russian cosmonaut who spent 748 days on the space station. Spending so much time at the orbiting speed of mach 24, he is on average 1/50th of a second more into the future compared everyone else on Earth lol

[Lost]

On your thoughts, C.A., here are mine: I think its really pointless to ask this questions. Whether our race will go extinct or not; no matter how it will; the point is that we exist now and thats that. Don't you think it is better to exist, and be at least remotely able to do something about those extinction-issues; rather than not exist in the first place? Who's to say we were not created or chanced on for the better of good? And that question "Why not just kill ourselves now" really pisses me off. If you are questioning that much, be my guest. Just don't speak for the rest of humanity. For me, I'd subscribe to what Vexx said. We may not be important to the universe; but you are important as an indivdual, to yourself and the people who love you, as am I. (shameless attempt to make this on topic): Haruhi may not be important to the rest of the world (i.e. the universe), but she certainly is important to Kyon. And thats a good enough reason to exist, imo.

But please don't take this personally. Nice views. I wanted to post something about religion and such, but I'd better not.Argh the sub is out and I'm at school!?! :(

@C.A.: Neither do I; I guess that spoiler button is just so irresistable.Also from Discovery Channel, the human who's been furthest into the future is a russian cosmonaut who spent 748 days on the space station. Spending so much time at the orbiting speed of mach 24, he is on average 1/50th of a second more into the future compared everyone else on Earth lol Hee hee cool cool :D

[Vexx]

Basically, you're reaching the "42" conclusion :)
What point there is to be had is in appreciating that at this instant, there is a *you* ... a unique bump in the matter-energy matrix that can observe the field around it and appreciate it. Find other bumps that "get it", have fun, and try not to make a mess for the bumps that will come later. :)

[Orchunter226]

Well, a good episode, but not as good as the others. I kinda wanted to slap Kyon, does he not see that Haruhi is having feelings for him. Can he not find any words or actions to comfort her?

It seems this episodes philisophic nature envoked quite a bit of theorizing amongst the fans. A lot of speculations on why we exist it seems. Kinda funny....

[Lost]

Cool :) Why is called 42? Was it a book? I guess my definition of universe is as a micro-universe? I'm a bump in this micro-system; and I interact with it accordingly; having fun with other bumps like u said, and trying not to make a mess for bumps to come. Tho this micro-universe would be infinitesimally minute in relation to the real universe (physical and time-wise); it is infinitesimally huge to me. Ahwell, better get back to topic.

[C.A.]

On your thoughts, C.A., here are mine: I think its really pointless to ask this questions. Whether our race will go extinct or not; no matter how it will; the point is that we exist now and thats that. Don't you think it is better to exist, and be at least remotely able to do something about those extinction-issues; rather than not exist in the first place? Who's to say we were not created or chanced on for the better of good? And that question "Why not just kill ourselves now" really pisses me off. If you are questioning that much, be my guest. Just don't speak for the rest of humanity. For me, I'd subscribe to what Vexx said. We may not be important to the universe; but you are important as an indivdual, to yourself and the people who love you, as am I. (shameless attempt to make this on topic): Haruhi may not be important to the rest of the world (i.e. the universe), but she certainly is important to Kyon. And thats a good enough reason to exist, imo.

But please don't take this personally. Nice views. I wanted to post something about religion and such, but I'd better not.Well:These are the views of someone who used to suffer from depression lol

This episode brought those thoughts back to me, not that I've always been lamenting on the pointlessness of existance.

I wanted to say something that's more on topic just now, but I forgot after typing so much lol

Haruhi is valuable to the Data entities because of her abilities, but I think she's as valuable for humans as well. If she knew what she can do, she could be the saviour for humanity, that's if she favours humans lol

She can make life much more fun and interesting even without the SOS dan.

[panzerfan]

Well, a good episode, but not as good as the others. I kinda wanted to slap Kyon, does he not see that Haruhi is having feelings for him. Can he not find any words or actions to comfort her?

It seems this episodes philisophic nature envoked quite a bit of theorizing amongst the fans. A lot of speculations on why we exist it seems. Kinda funny....

It's not very easy for the somewhat pragmatic Kyon to risk it given it's Suzumiya Haruhi now is it... he's already thinking of saying some philosophical anecdote but many times his reference falls to deaf ears to her. He has a load of unanswered questions to deal with himself and Haruhi's revelation is a part of the puzzle. He's more than capable verbally to express himself but he is lost with the revelations pounds him endlessly.

[Major Kerina]

Oh wait...just one thing...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/Majorkerina/Haruhiism/snapshot20060627194607.jpg

My point being Kyon said the line on the right...@_@...very randomish...

[panzerfan]

My thought on Lost and C.A's comments:

What Lost and C.A said brings up another issue that is at the center of Suzumiya Haruhi... whether or not if being content with the world and maintaining status quo is the best.

Data Entity wants the key to autoevolution, Time travellers want to preserve their heritage and ability to go back in time, The organization want to survive... which comes to my point. Is being content the key to survival or be on the move and change by any mean the best solution? Kyon finds the world as it is to be interesting so there's no need to artifically press for even more dramatic changes that Haruhi's "new order" might bring but Asakura demonstrates the innate frustration with the status quo (one that Haruhi experiences in vol1 but less afterwards). Survival in being content vs. survival in constant shifts would sum this up...
I agree with Kyon's conclusion but that's just me

[CrowKenobi]

Cool :) Why is called 42? Was it a book? I guess my definition of universe is as a micro-universe? I'm a bump in this micro-system; and I interact with it accordingly; having fun with other bumps like u said, and trying not to make a mess for bumps to come. Tho this micro-universe would be infinitesimally minute in relation to the real universe (physical and time-wise); it is infinitesimally huge to me. Ahwell, better get back to topic. Vexx was referencing Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy" and the answer the super computer Deep Thought spent 7 1/2 million years calcuating from the ultimate question of "Life, The Universe, and Everything." :heh:

And I think that William Shakespere was right on the money with Hamlet's soliloquy that starts with "To Be, or not to be..." (Hamlet, Act III, scene 1) :D

Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_be%2C_or_not_to_be

[Kamui4356]

Well:TThis episode brought those thoughts back to me, not that I've always been lamenting on the pointlessness of existance.
So what if existance is inherently meaningless? I don't believe there's any grand purpose, meaning, or reason for existance. To me it's a culmination of random chance over billions of years that brought about this outcome. However, we as humans have to ability to create our own purpose. If there is no inherent meaning to existance, that is what we must then do. The meaning we create ourselves is just as true as it would have been if it had been inherent to existance.

[arcticphoenix16]

It had alot of talking, but it was interesting enough. I expected the breaking of closed space is more spetacular. I'll give it an 8.

[diopter]

Yes, its very sad that we humans have so much chance, but we are short lived. We could develop all sorts of technology if we are given the time, we would probably be able to escape the Big Crunch/Freeze by sliding through dimensions in the future. We could escape all sorts of cosmic destruction if we had the technology.

But will people continue living happily, 20 billion years in the future? What reason do humans have to continue living? Do humans keep on living just so that the race will carry on? Is there a point to that? Well one thing I can think of is that we can probably spread life all over the universe, but in the end there's still no point in doing that. There's no ultimate point in life.

Random thoughts from panzerfan's:

I love this part of the lyrics from 'Bouken Desho Desho?':This song has beautiful lyrics, very meaningful as well.

Also not sure why but I feel like talking about time travelling, into the future. Time travelling into the future is much easier than going into the past. All we have to do is move, when we move we are already going into the future, how far we are going into the future can be calculated. Following Einstein's theory of relativity, the closer we get to the speed of light, the slower time is relative to us.

e.g.: So if we travel for 6 months in a space ship at 99% the speed of light and return to Earth, 50 years or so would have been passed. There, we travelled into the future.

Also from Discovery Channel, the human who's been furthest into the future is a russian cosmonaut who spent 748 days on the space station. Spending so much time at the orbiting speed of mach 24, he is on average 1/50th of a second more into the future compared everyone else on Earth lol

Not really sure why people are spoiler-tagging these as they're not directly related to the episode :p . Anyway, I like some of the points you brought out, albeit too ideal for my taste. I don't believe humans will live that long; we evolve, and eventually may encounter superior life forms elsewhere, and with our cockish southern attitude we'll get wiped out (/endsarcasm btw). The Big Crunch is a very unlikely feature for the universe. So far the Big Freeze is more probable since the universe is expanding and not slowing down (although it depends on the geometry of the universe, which we obviously don't know right now). And with dark matter possibly existing, it will only assist in further increasing the rate of expansion. But eh, we'll either die off or be integrated into Yuki's Data Entity before we get to that point :D .

I also agree with C.A. that the OP/ED songs have very good lyrics and meaningful even though they're both slightly too genki for me.

As to others who try to justify or defend the "importance" of existence, I say, "whatever." To me, you don't have to be important to exist. The more I try to justify the importance and think about this issue, the more depressed I get. It's better to defenestrate the issue at hand because I don't think it's relevant. "Importance" is a relative term like "hot" or "cold." I think the show is more about cogito, ergo sum AKA I am thinking, therefore I exist. Her thinking made existence of her wishes, which defines reality for her; but common sense grounded her to "reality" (our reality). It is weird how an anime can make me think so much about philsophy and physics. I think I veered off whatever I originally wanted to talk about, but I think I touched on those points regardless. Someone feel me to return me to whichever hot topic is at hand in this thread :p .

Oh yeah, this is what I get for being a TA for a quantum physics professor! It was also pretty sad that I actually recognized most of the formulas on the OP credits as soon as I saw the equations.

[Killer Loli]

I liked this chapter because of personal reasons and it set me thinking. PM me if you want personal reasons, here are some of the thoughts I had when I read the chapter:Why do humans exist? Why do we have/want to live our lives and die? Does the Anthropic Principle make any sense?

If we humans exist because the Universe allows us to exist, then why are these events going to happen?:

In 5 billion years: Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the entire inner solar system. If we humans still live around the solar system, we would be fried.
Even if we manage to colonise the outer solar system, the supernova coming afterwards would destroy the entire solar system.

Approximately 10 - 15 billion years from now, our nearest neighbouring galaxy, Andromeda will collide into our Milky Way. The central super blackholes will merge, who knows what would happen when the 2 galaxies merge into one. If humans can survive for so long, we probably have to prepare to leave the Milky Way when we can see the Andromeda galaxy without telescopes.

Within 25 billion years, our local galaxy super cluster will be totally destroyed by a single super blackhole that has grown so large over the years, it pulls entire galaxies on contact with its event horizon. When finally every single galaxy in the galaxy cluster and everything within range has been absorbed by the blackhole, something unimaginable will happen: Scientists predict that this black hole unable to feed and sustain itself with further collapse on its own. All the matter in the blackhole will compress into the centre, heat and energy builds up as the blackhole becomes increasingly denser. Until when it finally is unable to hold the immense pressure, it will explode like a small version of the Big Bang, probably destroying a part of the universe, reforming it.

And who knows whether there would be a Big Crunch or Big Freeze at the end.

This is what I learnt from Discovery Channel.I mention these on several forums I visited before and the response I always get is that humans probably won't see these events or we don't have to worry because humans would destroy each other in the near future.

This begs the question even more, why do we exist at all? Since we are so short lived and our existance doesn't matter to the universe. Do we exist so that we can learn that our race will eventually die one day? If thats the case why do we make our lives even more pointless by spending our everyday lives doing the same thing everyday: wake up, brush, eat, school/work, eat, brush, sleep, repeat. Even if we get to live very special lives, we would still die one day and leave everything behind. Why not just kill ourselves now?@Kamui4356: lol I'm glad to know that someone visualised the closed space similar to how I did


I'm not sure those theories like the big bang, big crunch or the big freeze qualify as a spoiler, like you said we could've found out via discovery, wiki or etc...but whatever. Any string theorists out there?

Anyways to the point, anthropic principle seems to me to reflect the old addage of a tree falling in the woods and no one's aroung does it make a sound? Itsuki puts it the best "The existence of humans permits the existence of the universe." Would the universe be here without a human or life in general there to observe it; to go and say kokoni iruyo "here i am."
It's more philosophy than theory, but then we can't be sure.
I don't believe in the theory that Haruhi=God, but a believer of string theory(the theory of everything) which goes past quantum mechanincs past the planc scale to the smallest denominator i'm talking 10 to the negative 32 power of a centimeter; this is the realm of strings, being energy bands that vibrate like the strings of a guitar or piano and thus throught these vibrations create all the subatomic particles known to man. Being able to play the guitar and piano (in the credits anyway) Haruhi may be an excellent candidate as the force that plucks those strings creating the beautiful symphony that is our universe. (but she's still no god)

Haruhi's speech in this episode resonates of existentialism, nothing matters, we're all just a drop in a bucket, a very bleak interpretation of life, some of the posts seem very bleak too, all i have to say is relax, enjoy life, and go watch more Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (maybe in the right order this time, yes no maybe so?)


P.S. GOD PLS PLS PLS let there be a second season, pls pls pls, this is a fantastic show, with more that enough substance for another season

[Killer Loli]

I liked this chapter because of personal reasons and it set me thinking. PM me if you want personal reasons, here are some of the thoughts I had when I read the chapter:Why do humans exist? Why do we have/want to live our lives and die? Does the Anthropic Principle make any sense?

If we humans exist because the Universe allows us to exist, then why are these events going to happen?:

In 5 billion years: Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the entire inner solar system. If we humans still live around the solar system, we would be fried.
Even if we manage to colonise the outer solar system, the supernova coming afterwards would destroy the entire solar system.

Approximately 10 - 15 billion years from now, our nearest neighbouring galaxy, Andromeda will collide into our Milky Way. The central super blackholes will merge, who knows what would happen when the 2 galaxies merge into one. If humans can survive for so long, we probably have to prepare to leave the Milky Way when we can see the Andromeda galaxy without telescopes.

Within 25 billion years, our local galaxy super cluster will be totally destroyed by a single super blackhole that has grown so large over the years, it pulls entire galaxies on contact with its event horizon. When finally every single galaxy in the galaxy cluster and everything within range has been absorbed by the blackhole, something unimaginable will happen: Scientists predict that this black hole unable to feed and sustain itself with further collapse on its own. All the matter in the blackhole will compress into the centre, heat and energy builds up as the blackhole becomes increasingly denser. Until when it finally is unable to hold the immense pressure, it will explode like a small version of the Big Bang, probably destroying a part of the universe, reforming it.

And who knows whether there would be a Big Crunch or Big Freeze at the end.

This is what I learnt from Discovery Channel.I mention these on several forums I visited before and the response I always get is that humans probably won't see these events or we don't have to worry because humans would destroy each other in the near future.

This begs the question even more, why do we exist at all? Since we are so short lived and our existance doesn't matter to the universe. Do we exist so that we can learn that our race will eventually die one day? If thats the case why do we make our lives even more pointless by spending our everyday lives doing the same thing everyday: wake up, brush, eat, school/work, eat, brush, sleep, repeat. Even if we get to live very special lives, we would still die one day and leave everything behind. Why not just kill ourselves now?@Kamui4356: lol I'm glad to know that someone visualised the closed space similar to how I did


I'm not sure those theories like the big bang, big crunch or the big freeze qualify as a spoiler, like you said we could've found out via discovery, wiki or etc...but whatever. Any string theorists out there?

Anyways to the point, anthropic principle seems to me to reflect the old addage of a tree falling in the woods and no one's aroung does it make a sound? Itsuki puts it the best "The existence of humans permits the existence of the universe." Would the universe be here without a human or life in general there to observe it; to go and say kokoni iruyo "here i am."
It's more philosophy than theory, but then we can't be sure.
I don't believe in the theory that Haruhi=God, but a believer of string theory(the theory of everything) which goes past quantum mechanincs past the planc scale to the smallest denominator i'm talking 10 to the negative 32 power of a centimeter; this is the realm of strings, being energy bands that vibrate like the strings of a guitar or piano and thus throught these vibrations create all the subatomic particles known to man. Being able to play the guitar and piano (in the credits anyway) Haruhi may be an excellent candidate as the force that plucks those strings creating the beautiful symphony that is our universe. (but she's still no god)

Haruhi's speech in this episode resonates of existentialism, nothing matters, we're all just a drop in a bucket, a very bleak interpretation of life, some of the posts seem very bleak too, relax, enjoy life, and go watch more Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (maybe in 'chronological' order this time, yes no maybe so?)


P.S. GOD PLS PLS PLS let there be a second season, pls pls pls, this is a fantastic show, with more that enough substance for another season

[Killer Loli]

Sumimasen, really my bad did not mean to post the same thing twice

[Kaioshin Sama]

@Vexx and panzerfan: After reading both posts, I had some random thoughts lol

Random thoughts from Vexx's post:

Yes, its very sad that we humans have so much chance, but we are short lived. We could develop all sorts of technology if we are given the time, we would probably be able to escape the Big Crunch/Freeze by sliding through dimensions in the future. We could escape all sorts of cosmic destruction if we had the technology.

But will people continue living happily, 20 billion years in the future? What reason do humans have to continue living? Do humans keep on living just so that the race will carry on? Is there a point to that? Well one thing I can think of is that we can probably spread life all over the universe, but in the end there's still no point in doing that. There's no ultimate point in life.

Random thoughts from panzerfan's:

I love this part of the lyrics from 'Bouken Desho Desho?':This song has beautiful lyrics, very meaningful as well.

Also not sure why but I feel like talking about time travelling, into the future. Time travelling into the future is much easier than going into the past. All we have to do is move, when we move we are already going into the future, how far we are going into the future can be calculated. Following Einstein's theory of relativity, the closer we get to the speed of light, the slower time is relative to us.

e.g.: So if we travel for 6 months in a space ship at 99% the speed of light and return to Earth, 50 years or so would have been passed. There, we travelled into the future.

Also from Discovery Channel, the human who's been furthest into the future is a russian cosmonaut who spent 748 days on the space station. Spending so much time at the orbiting speed of mach 24, he is on average 1/50th of a second more into the future compared everyone else on Earth lol

That's like every anime song on the planet. Basically me and my friend agree that every anime song has a requirement to fit in a combination the words "Dreams, Follow, Your, Tomorrow, Happiness, Reason, Realize, Love, Sky, Stars and/or Beautiful, Blue, Earth". For Shounen just use antononyms to most of the above mentioned words, Congratulations you've just made a hit anime song and can sit back and collect the royalties.

Honestly to me the tune is what counts as more often than not the lyrics make me want to cry myself to sleep.

[Kaioshin Sama]

I'm not sure those theories like the big bang, big crunch or the big freeze qualify as a spoiler, like you said we could've found out via discovery, wiki or etc...but whatever. Any string theorists out there?

Anyways to the point, anthropic principle seems to me to reflect the old addage of a tree falling in the woods and no one's aroung does it make a sound? Itsuki puts it the best "The existence of humans permits the existence of the universe." Would the universe be here without a human or life in general there to observe it; to go and say kokoni iruyo "here i am."
It's more philosophy than theory, but then we can't be sure.
I don't believe in the theory that Haruhi=God, but a believer of string theory(the theory of everything) which goes past quantum mechanincs past the planc scale to the smallest denominator i'm talking 10 to the negative 32 power of a centimeter; this is the realm of strings, being energy bands that vibrate like the strings of a guitar or piano and thus throught these vibrations create all the subatomic particles known to man. Being able to play the guitar and piano (in the credits anyway) Haruhi may be an excellent candidate as the force that plucks those strings creating the beautiful symphony that is our universe. (but she's still no god)

Haruhi's speech in this episode resonates of existentialism, nothing matters, we're all just a drop in a bucket, a very bleak interpretation of life, some of the posts seem very bleak too, relax, enjoy life, and go watch more Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (maybe in 'chronological' order this time, yes no maybe so?)


P.S. GOD PLS PLS PLS let there be a second season, pls pls pls, this is a fantastic show, with more that enough substance for another season

That's Nihilism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism. Existentialism is like the exact opposite.

[Major Kerina]

It was an amazing episode but not a crowd-pleaser so I doubt this'll get high opinion. That'll be reserved for viewing of the final episode (assuming AX events allow us to do so legitimately...fortunately, I know people in Japan). But this touches at the heart of Melancholy in the human condition. Haruhi fights against it and does all those crazy things thus far to get around her heart of Melancholy. To me, this episode is perfect. Even the long-winded dialog got my mind turning. What can I believe about what Itsuki says? It even makes me wonder about the absolute nature of what he's said previously. It's a delicious puzzle box with its soft and rougher moments. One piece is left to this puzzle...And this one gets a ten from me, amazing translation effort too. Absolutely amazing.

[lavarock]

I think this is a great episode and brought up a bunch of good questions. Haruhi explained to us reason why has she always sought after paranormal things. I think itsuki's dialogue in the car is rather interesting.
The closed space part is well done, it's pretty much how I imagined. Like someone already said, the destruction of closed space is maybe abit rushed (we talking about KyoAni quality here), but overall it's a well done episode, and a very fitting episode to setup for a finale.

[panzerfan]

(the old notes in ontology section suddenly bears to mind right about now. Suzumiya Haruhi fascinated me because of that in the first place, not purely for its premise...)

What can I believe about what Itsuki says? It even makes me wonder about the absolute nature of what he's said previously.
As such, take Kyon with a grain of salt as well... he makes it clear that he is biased against Koizumi Itsuki.

What Killer Loli mentions and Kaioshin_Sama corrects with Nihilism actually would augment Kaioshin's arguments by saying that Haruhi is trapped in a Nihilist dilemma. "Truth does not exist" being the perfect example to use. Her thought manifests in reality as the enclosed space is rooted to the liar paradox. One must apply a degree of relativist view to remedy this clash of 2 absolutes regarding the dull reality within Haruhi's head.


(O yea, I believe in M-theory to an extent. Call me a string believer too but... I am open to more interpretations)

[Killer Loli]

That's Nihilism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism. Existentialism is like the exact opposite.



Well not exactly opposites they do have their differences, but both share ideals of a meaningless or absurd universe. Even one of the great philosophers of nihilism, Friedrich Nietzsche, was an existentialist at one point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche#Nihilism_and_God_is_dead

[ECFNW]

Gave it a 7.
This episode seem to go by rather quickly, and had ZERO Mikuru air-time.

[Lost]

This series really has its roots in philosophy doesnt it? Or are we just making too much out of it? :heh: Sigh. This download is taking forever.

Lol, C.A., I didnt know your personal reasons for your ponderings; sorry if I was too forward :)

As to others who try to justify or defend the "importance" of existence, I say, "whatever." To me, you don't have to be important to exist.Yep, you exist, and hence you are important; for the mere fact that you exist. TA? Whats that?

[npal]

Tsk tsk... No Mikuru... Unacceptable... Well, it was very good, so I'll give it an 8.

No Mikuru... Tsk tsk...

[monir]

Tsk tsk... No Mikuru... Unacceptable... Well, it was very good, so I'll give it an 8.

No Mikuru... Tsk tsk... As this episode hinted, we probably would finally see why Mikuru was warning Kyon not to make Haruhi mad in one of the previous episode, so, we should see plenty of Mikuru-chan in utter distress in the next episode for certain. Hopefully, Kyon would be the shining knight to the rescue, saving Mikuru-chan from the evil Haruhi infected with the jealousy bug. ;)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Hopefully, Kyon would be the shining knight to the rescue, saving Mikuru-chan from the evil Haruhi infected with the jealousy bug.

...I might be wrong, but won't that increase the jealousy rather than decrease it?:heh:

[npal]

...I might be wrong, but won't that increase the jealousy rather than decrease it?:heh:

Who cares? :p If we can't live together, we can always die together :p MikuruxKyon for eternity :D

[ChainLegacy]

Kyon is hilarious. The guy just genuinely doesn't care or have a clue what the hell is going on.

[Vexx]

Obviously, the MikuruxKyon camp are nihilists who want to bring the End on. :)

On Kyon: yeah... he's basically Joe Sixpack japan style.... he really doesn't rise up intellectually to the situation but manages to be likeable mostly :)
He's basically the only person in the universe that treats Haruhi like an equal - rather than a freak (mundanes response) or a all destroying goddess of some kind (faction 1) or anomoly (faction 2 and 3).

[Truth-kun]

Just finished it. Hmm, a lot of talking. This may be the episode with the highest number of lines! I thought the action scenes were too few, and the Celestial fight was too quick. This is probably the first time that I saw Kyon not narrating that much.

+ for young Haruhi <3

I gave it a solid 8. ^_^

[Sorrow-K]

I really have to applaud the continous yet subtle development this series has given Haruhi. It wasn't as subtle here, but it was extremely well done nonetheless. She's really become one of my favourite characters of recent times, and more of it's to do with her complexity than her wayward eccentricity. The last few episodes particularly have been very impressive with the way they've dealt with different aspects of Haruhi's personality, and I'd argue the difference in her attitude between this episode and the last really highlights how much she develops as a character in this series. This is how you develop a character without being blatant and forced (as some may argue of Higurashi), but without neglecting them in favour of plot (Fate/Stay Night).

The only criticism I have of this episode, is that it seems like some of the production values are dropping. There's a long speech scene where Itsuki doesn't move at all relative to the camera for several seconds, and there's some shonky CG used for the road in a panning shot above the taxi late in the episode. They're the sort of things one expects of lesser anime, but not the sort of things we'd have seen earlier in this series. Though, that I can count the blemishes on one hand signifies that they're still pretty good.

[Moogster]

i liked this episode. Mainly because it explained alot. Knowing what made Haruhi act the way she acts now and the importance of the espers when Haruhi becomes "bored" and unleashes a celestial.

Koizumi's explanation also was interesting. Although the only drawback for me in this episode was the fight with the celstial was too quick.

Hopefully episode 14 will end with a bang. :D

[Maho~!]

Just a couple of questions:

1) What exactly happened during the episode that ticked off the Shinjin / Celestial and Sealed Reality / Closed Space to materialize? Did Haruhi get pissed off at being hit on by the manager? Did she get stressed because Nagato glanced at Kyon? Or because she felt melancholic about talking her past?

2) What provoked Haruhi to suddenly talk about her past 3 years ago? The last line before she began speaking about her past was a question at Nagato re her eyeglasses, IIRC.

The common link between the questions is the rapid descent of Haruhi's mood from Asakura's disappearance (excited and cheerful) to Kyon and Haruhi's visit to the apartment (disquieted). I'm assuming this happened all in one day, so such a rapid descent of mood must have been triggered by something. I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.

[Incoan]

Just a couple of questions:

1) What exactly happened during the episode that ticked off the Shinjin / Celestial and Sealed Reality / Closed Space to materialize? Did Haruhi get pissed off at being hit on by the manager? Did she get stressed because Nagato glanced at Kyon? Or because she felt melancholic about talking her past?

2) What provoked Haruhi to suddenly talk about her past 3 years ago? The last line before she began speaking about her past was a question at Nagato re her eyeglasses, IIRC.

The common link between the questions is the rapid descent of Haruhi's mood from Asakura's disappearance (excited and cheerful) to Kyon and Haruhi's visit to the apartment (disquieted). I'm assuming this happened all in one day, so such a rapid descent of mood must have been triggered by something. I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.
My guesses.

1) Haruhi was was upset with the fact that despite her efforts (the creation of SOS dan) she hasn't experienced anything supernatural yet.

2) That just shows how much Haruhi trusts Kyon. You don't talk about your past with random strangers, do you?

[Forever]

Just a couple of questions:

1) What exactly happened during the episode that ticked off the Shinjin / Celestial and Sealed Reality / Closed Space to materialize? Did Haruhi get pissed off at being hit on by the manager? Did she get stressed because Nagato glanced at Kyon? Or because she felt melancholic about talking her past?

2) What provoked Haruhi to suddenly talk about her past 3 years ago? The last line before she began speaking about her past was a question at Nagato re her eyeglasses, IIRC.

The common link between the questions is the rapid descent of Haruhi's mood from Asakura's disappearance (excited and cheerful) to Kyon and Haruhi's visit to the apartment (disquieted). I'm assuming this happened all in one day, so such a rapid descent of mood must have been triggered by something. I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.

Well the answer is simple. Suzumiya Haruhi is pissed and bored. She did not discover any fantastic development at all. When she got the same boring feeling that she had throughout her life, she begin reminces when she first felt this way.

And even though when haruhi gets bored or pissed, the world shudders, itsuki goes into overtime, I still hope for kyon x yuki! Looks like I am on the same boat with kyon x mikurus supporters! We both wish a reset of their world! :heh:

[Deathkillz]

kinda depressing when suzumiya explained her past about being insignificant -.-
but she looks cuter with longer hair ^^
however too much talking for my fancy...especially in the car...
most amusing quote of this episode kyon: "screw three years ago" XD 8/10

[rain...]

What exactly happened during the episode that ticked off the Shinjin / Celestial and Sealed Reality / Closed Space to materialize? Did Haruhi get pissed off at being hit on by the manager? Did she get stressed because Nagato glanced at Kyon? Or because she felt melancholic about talking her past?

For this episode, the Sealed Reality and the Shinjin most likely materialized because of Haruhi's frustration in reaching a somewhat dead-end conclusion in investigating Asakura's disappearance. As you said, Haruhi's sudden change of mood - super excited (as you can see from the last Yuuutsu episode, Haruhi dragging Kyon through the hallway) to a silent disappointment after finding not much a lead at Asakura's apartment. Imo,the rapid change of Haruhi's mood levels causes her stress, therefore creating the Sealed Reality where her stress can be released by the somewhat safely by the Shinjin. Another great example would be the the baseball episode.

[Kinny Riddle]

An 8. As expected after the first climax from "Melancholy IV" (episode 10) and three consecutive 10s from me.

Loli Haruhi, her "moving" speech and the "closed space" and blue giant were the highlights of this episode.

As a translator, I dislike Koizumi for different reasons than Kyon - Koizumi is the show's philosophical chatterbox, his long-winded explanations are really a pain to understand and translate, so a lot of things can get lost.

Can't blame Koizumi completely I guess, part of the blame must go to author Tanigawa for going too long-winded as well. (Even Tanigawa admitted he may be a bit long-winded, as can be seen with the long beginning for Volume 3 - Lone Island Syndrome. )

Apart from that, Koizumi is an OK person who provides the occasional Koizumi x Kyon comic relief. :D

For those worrying about where humans can go once the sun goes nova or the universe gets crunched into a super black hole, I once came across a book Parallel Worldsby NYU physicist Michio Kaku that suggests we might just move into another parallel universe that just got born once ours start dying. Thus ensuring our survival. That's from reading the back of the book in a store, let me clarify, so I'm not sure of the contents. :heh:

It's amazing next episode is the last already, there still seems a lot (from chapter 7 and the epilogue) that needs to be stuffed in for animation. I'm sure Kyo-Ani has to remove the OP and ED as well, maybe it'll be slightly longer even.

I really like to see the expression on Haruhi's face, or at least how she reacts when Kyon tells her:
"You look great in that pony tail."

[C.A.]

Just a couple of questions:

1) What exactly happened during the episode that ticked off the Shinjin / Celestial and Sealed Reality / Closed Space to materialize? Did Haruhi get pissed off at being hit on by the manager? Did she get stressed because Nagato glanced at Kyon? Or because she felt melancholic about talking her past?

2) What provoked Haruhi to suddenly talk about her past 3 years ago? The last line before she began speaking about her past was a question at Nagato re her eyeglasses, IIRC.

The common link between the questions is the rapid descent of Haruhi's mood from Asakura's disappearance (excited and cheerful) to Kyon and Haruhi's visit to the apartment (disquieted). I'm assuming this happened all in one day, so such a rapid descent of mood must have been triggered by something. I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.Here's what I think:

After knowing that she has a real mystery at hand, Asakura Ryoko's disappearance, she found that there's nothing she can do to continue the investigation. She was disappointed and probably asked herself what is she doing all the while, she felt that all the effort and time she put into the SOS-dan and mystery searching has been fruitless.

She doesn't know what she's doing in her life, which leads to her talking to Kyon about what she thought of her meaningless life and that every individual is really nothing special. This is what made her so upset for that day.That's like every anime song on the planet. Basically me and my friend agree that every anime song has a requirement to fit in a combination the words "Dreams, Follow, Your, Tomorrow, Happiness, Reason, Realize, Love, Sky, Stars and/or Beautiful, Blue, Earth". For Shounen just use antononyms to most of the above mentioned words, Congratulations you've just made a hit anime song and can sit back and collect the royalties.

Honestly to me the tune is what counts as more often than not the lyrics make me want to cry myself to sleep.There's nothing wrong if you and your friend can't see the significance of lyrics, you're just not able to fully appreciate a song. A song is different from an instrumental.

A song's tune is bland without lyrics and lyrics without music is just plain words. Most songs have tunes that are tailored for the lyrics, that's why when you change lyrics of a song, you often end up with something that sounds bad.

An instrumental brings out the emotions of the audience using pure melody, but a song can't do that, for it is a song, it has lyrics. A song carries its message through the combination of its music and lyrics, appreciating just one part will not get you the full message. Much like watching an anime with the speakers mute and without subs.

You know, I didn't cry to Try Again and Ai Oboeteimasuka just because they sound so good, I cried because of the entire song with their lyrics and also seeing the characters perform their songs.

[Shirobane]

Animation or some sort of visual also plays a significant role in music in some cases. For example: Aozora (AIR) would probably have not been so powerful if Misuzu had not been in that situation. I feel the same way with "Lost My Music" last episode as it probably would not have been as fun to listen to if Haruhi hadn't thrown out a wink and blew a kiss to the crowd (or so it seems :heh:.) or if she hadn't looked like she was having a great time on stage.

Sorry for being slightly off topic, I haven't had a chance to watch the episode yet. I have exams this week =/ but I'll throw this out in the open though. With what has been shown, there seems to be some similarities between how Haruhi and Yuki can create dimensions seperated from the "real" world. The difference between the two is that Haruhi wasn't created by the data entity. I wonder though if the Data Entity's interest extends beyond autoevolution and into finding who created Haruhi or who gave Haruhi her powers.

[diopter]

This series really has its roots in philosophy doesnt it? Or are we just making too much out of it? :heh: Sigh. This download is taking forever.

Lol, C.A., I didnt know your personal reasons for your ponderings; sorry if I was too forward :)

Yep, you exist, and hence you are important; for the mere fact that you exist. TA? Whats that?

And I'm saying importance is a relative term simply because there is no definitive answer to the word :). You are certainly entitled to your thinking; I don't think it's right or wrong; I just don't think it's "important" (couldn't resist). TA = teacher assistant.

[Erhjegel]

Here's a thought.

Koizumi - Able to transmute feelings of Haruhi into comprehensible information.
Yuki - Able to handle various amounts of information though they be incomprehensible for the average human.
Mikuru - Able to...well, possibly a representation of fancies and simple likes. Whims, most likely.

Are we seeing the functions of a human brain at work?

Say, in this context: imagine your Id, Superego and Ego, only they are personified as real humans.

Kyon then might be the representation of the unconscious wish to love/be loved.

[Zangetsu]

this isnt the last ep is it!!! O_O...if it is.....am......am............am gonna cry T_T

[Vexx]

Finally rated the episode ... I gave it a 9..... made up of these parts:
-- a 10 for being brave enough to spend an entire episode on exposition. They did an excellent job of portraying the complexity of Haruhi's feelings about herself, Kyon, everything else. I think Koizumi's dialog lost a lot both in translation and in the original author's abilities to explain. I was able to follow because I have a fair grounding in the "lay" physics and concepts being tossed around, but I can see how someone unfamiliar with cosmology or theoretical physics might react much like Kyon did :)
-- 7 for the animation in closed space.... obviously they chose to spend their budget on the Yuki phenomenom episodes and I hope the last episode.
-- 8 for the animation in real space. The driving scene was actually quite impressive. Also many points fo the nuances of Haruhi's expressions (and Yuki's glance... amazing what an ink'n'paint drawing can convey).
-- 8 for the musical scoring .... not "listenable" but very key for setting emotional tone, ... I'm a sucker for minor key choral stuff.

[Noppapana]

i thought that the answer of Kyon 'I see' was kinda dissapointing for Haruhi was the main cause of the appearance of the Shinjin.

[Moogster]

imo, this episode was fitting for a episode before the finale. I can't seem to find a place where I could put it in the shuffling of episodes.

Gave it a 9/10. I like how KyoAni portrayed the dialogues of Haruhi and Koizumi. Got me really paying attention.

[The Sphinx]

I think it's just a continuation of Haruhi's disappointment going all the way back to Episode 5. That was only three days prior to the events of Episode 13, and she's been pouting about it the whole time. Haruhi's mood swings go something like this:

Day 1: Episode 5: Field trip. It's a terrible day for Haruhi. They don't find any aliens, time travellers, or espers (as far as she knows, anyway). Worse, Kyon seems to be just goofing around. Even worse than that, she keeps losing her chance for time alone with Kyon in the straw poll. She's depressed.

Day 2: Still Episode 5: Itsuki talks to Kyon about his powers. Haruhi doesn't go to school; she later tells Kyon she went searching for aliens etc. again.

Day 3: Episode 10: Haruhi is still pouting and refuses to talk to Ryoko. She fusses at Kyon, then never shows up at the clubroom after school. Ryoko tries to kill Kyon and Yuki saves him.

Day 4: Still Episode 10: The homeroom teacher announces Ryoko has transferred out because her parents are moving to Canada. Haruhi becomes very excited and literally drags Kyon out of the school.

Still Day 4: Episode 13: Haruhi and Kyon search around for clues about Ryoko's disappearance. They discover some odd facts but nothing that really holds Haruhi's interest. She leaves disappointed. Kyon follows her, then asks "Where are we going?" and "Can I leave now?" Haruhi becomes extremely melancholy, talks about her feeling of insignificance, and then obviously wants to be left alone.

She created this club hoping that exciting stuff would start happening. It hasn't. Her other motive for starting SOS Dan (probably hidden from herself) is to spend time with Kyon, but he's being a jerk. I can't blame her for being a little melancholic.

[C.A.]

I can only say Kyon is the direct cause of everything lol, nothing in the world can affect Haruhi except him.

EDIT: The 3 groups will agree with me on this one, Haruhi herself too

[Moogster]

Itsuki did say it was Kyon's fault after all

[npal]

/me rubs hands... Ah, the world will end :D

[panzerfan]

The 5 days of melancholy translates into 5 days of revelation for Kyon.

I was able to follow because I have a fair grounding in the "lay" physics and concepts being tossed around, but I can see how someone unfamiliar with cosmology or theoretical physics might react much like Kyon did

Kyon is incredably well versed (even if this might not be shown in anime as strongly). I find almost no reason for a person with his ability to comprehend and reference facts on the same calibur as that of Koizumi's narriative to not understand really... it makes me think almost that his innate bias against Koizumi makes him reject Koizumi's stance regardless of what sense and conclusions he has drawn from them. With Nagato Kyon is at a loss of thought initially but he is able to draw reasonable conclusions, thus further pushihg me to conclude that Kyon is either playing dumb for the sake of his distrust of Koizumi or he is rejecting Koizumi's stance as hypocracy even if he's thinking about Koizumi's arguments.


She created this club hoping that exciting stuff would start happening. It hasn't. Her other motive for starting SOS Dan (probably hidden from herself) is to spend time with Kyon, but he's being a jerk. I can't blame her for being a little melancholic.

I can only say Kyon is the direct cause of everything lol, nothing in the world can affect Haruhi except him.
EDIT: The 3 groups will agree with me on this one, Haruhi herself too

Kyon tries unsuccessfully to talk Haruhi out of her plan but only to learn of the incomprehensible depth of the SOS rabbit hole. He is dumbfounded by the level of absuridy as he says himself and is not sure of how is he to cope with this idiocy. I can't blame him for being cautious now given the weight of the Haruhi situation.

[C.A.]

Itsuki did say it was Kyon's fault after allYou will see why he said that next episode and why he told Kyon to observe Haruhi's behaviours and such.

Its something Itsuki and adult Mikuru knows about, young Mikuru can't stop and Yuki having no idea at all lol

Kyon tries unsuccessfully to talk Haruhi out of her plan but only to learn of the incomprehensible depth of the SOS rabbit hole. He is dumbfounded by the level of absuridy as he says himself and is not sure of how is he to cope with this idiocy. I can't blame him for being cautious now given the weight of the Haruhi situation.Well, the reason why I say Kyon is the source of all the trouble is the same reply I gave Moogster just above in this post.

And yea, Kyon is well versed actually

[Kaioshin Sama]

Here's what I think:

After knowing that she has a real mystery at hand, Asakura Ryoko's disappearance, she found that there's nothing she can do to continue the investigation. She was disappointed and probably asked herself what is she doing all the while, she felt that all the effort and time she put into the SOS-dan and mystery searching has been fruitless.

She doesn't know what she's doing in her life, which leads to her talking to Kyon about what she thought of her meaningless life and that every individual is really nothing special. This is what made her so upset for that day.There's nothing wrong if you and your friend can't see the significance of lyrics, you're just not able to fully appreciate a song. A song is different from an instrumental.

A song's tune is bland without lyrics and lyrics without music is just plain words. Most songs have tunes that are tailored for the lyrics, that's why when you change lyrics of a song, you often end up with something that sounds bad.

An instrumental brings out the emotions of the audience using pure melody, but a song can't do that, for it is a song, it has lyrics. A song carries its message through the combination of its music and lyrics, appreciating just one part will not get you the full message. Much like watching an anime with the speakers mute and without subs.

You know, I didn't cry to Try Again and Ai Oboeteimasuka just because they sound so good, I cried because of the entire song with their lyrics and also seeing the characters perform their songs.

Well in this case the opening actually has something to do with the series so I'll say the lyrics are meaningful. Usually the opening has jack all to do with the show and is an excuse to promote a popular song or new hit single. I know what you mean about some openings though, Yakosoku Wa Iranai from Escaflowne gives me gooesbumps everytime I hear it.

[Moogster]

You will see why he said that next episode and why he told Kyon to observe Haruhi's behaviours and such.

Its something Itsuki and adult Mikuru knows about, young Mikuru can't stop and Yuki having no idea at all lol

I do think I have a faint idea on what will transpire in the last episode.. :sweat:

[Vexx]

Listening to Kyon's "choose your next move" before saying "I see" .... best bad choice out of three very bad choices. At that moment I suspect he feels like he's caught on a treadmill. Haruhi's upset but she can't really articulate why (unconsciously hoping for something soothing from Kyon instead of "I see" and "Can I leave now?" ... ouch.. that must have hurt ... -10 for style).

Not hating on Kyon .... he's reacting fairly well given the situation but there's something fate-driven about his choices that make that "oncoming train" in the background metaphorical :)

[C.A.]

Well in this case the opening actually has something to do with the series so I'll say the lyrics are meaningful. Usually the opening has jack all to do with the show and is an excuse to promote a popular song or new hit single. I know what you mean about some openings though, Yakosoku Wa Iranai from Escaflowne gives me gooesbumps everytime I hear it.Yea Bouken Desho Desho is also great because it fits this story very well.

Not too many are used to promote singles or such, Yuusha Oh Tanjou! totally promotes the show itself, relates to the show and is totally spectacular lol

But you know failures when you hear something like Wings of Words lol

EDIT: Moved lower section of post

[npal]

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't really like Haruhi's OP/ED :p

[Moogster]

But you know failures when you hear something like Wings of Words lol

just really wanted to know.. since i haven'y heard about it yet. what's the problem with wing of words?

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't really like Haruhi's OP/ED
How can you not like it? The songs really depict the overall outlook of the series

[panzerfan]

Not hating on Kyon .... he's reacting fairly well given the situation but there's something fate-driven about his choices that make that "oncoming train" in the background metaphorical

That's what reminded me of Tokyo Love Story! It's not just the train itself but the whole context... (in the novel he commented on the train's Doppler Effect as it closes in).

The question about whether or not if the world is fun will stalk Kyon not long afterwards...

[C.A.]

Listening to Kyon's "choose your next move" before saying "I see" .... best bad choice out of three very bad choices. At that moment I suspect he feels like he's caught on a treadmill. Haruhi's upset but she can't really articulate why (unconsciously hoping for something soothing from Kyon instead of "I see" and "Can I leave now?" ... ouch.. that must have hurt ... -10 for style).

Not hating on Kyon .... he's reacting fairly well given the situation but there's something fate-driven about his choices that make that "oncoming train" in the background metaphorical :)I think Kyon already passed the point of no return when he asked whether he can leave, definitely can't say that to a girl when she's moody. Kyon fails here.

Even if he comes up with something really nice to hear after the train passes, he probably can't save Haruhi from going home and leaving him there.

The only way I can think of to save the situation is probably drag Haruhi by hand to some place fun and let her forget everything, but what do Haruhi find in this world that's fun? lol

just really wanted to know.. since i haven'y heard about it yet. what's the problem with wing of words?

Wings of Words, it totally doesn't fit the show, its a wrong song for a mecha opening, it doesn't mix with the OP animation too. Its just there as a song and maybe sell some singles.

[Kamui4356]

Kyon is incredably well versed (even if this might not be shown in anime as strongly). I find almost no reason for a person with his ability to comprehend and reference facts on the same calibur as that of Koizumi's narriative to not understand really... it makes me think almost that his innate bias against Koizumi makes him reject Koizumi's stance regardless of what sense and conclusions he has drawn from them. With Nagato Kyon is at a loss of thought initially but he is able to draw reasonable conclusions, thus further pushihg me to conclude that Kyon is either playing dumb for the sake of his distrust of Koizumi or he is rejecting Koizumi's stance as hypocracy even if he's thinking about Koizumi's arguments.
I largely agree with that. However, I don't think his bias against Itsuki is the primary reason. I see it as Kyon just doesn't want to be bothered with the situation. He just wants to live a normal life, and knowing about aliens, espers, time travellers, and Haruhi's true nature makes it a bit difficult. Kyon probably feels it's better to not know any more about what's going on. Once he knows, he can't go back to how he viewed the universe before.

[C.A.]

I largely agree with that. However, I don't think his bias against Itsuki is the primary reason. I see it as Kyon just doesn't want to be bothered with the situation. He just wants to live a normal life, and knowing about aliens, espers, time travellers, and Haruhi's true nature makes it a bit difficult. Kyon probably feels it's better to not know any more about what's going on. Once he knows, he can't go back to how he viewed the universe before.I agree that he doesn't want to be part of this chaos, he doesn't want to believe that he's the cause of everything. But if it was Mikuru who told Kyon the stuff Itsuki said, Kyon would probably believe alot more. Kyon really hates Itsuki lol, he comes up with a sarcastic remark or insult everytime Itsuki is mentioned in the novel lol

EDIT: lol people continue posting, its rather exciting to have so many posts going so quickly

[Moogster]

Wings of Words, it totally doesn't fit the show, its a wrong song for a mecha opening, it doesn't mix with the OP animation too. Its just there as a song and maybe sell some singles.

Just heard it. Shoudn't have heard it. i want my life back.

I largely agree with that. However, I don't think his bias against Itsuki is the primary reason. I see it as Kyon just doesn't want to be bothered with the situation. He just wants to live a normal life, and knowing about aliens, espers, time travellers, and Haruhi's true nature makes it a bit difficult. Kyon probably feels it's better to not know any more about what's going on. Once he knows, he can't go back to how he viewed the universe before.

He should have been much more ready with the situation with Haruhi given the fact that he just experienced getting killed with Ryoko.

[npal]

How can you not like it? The songs really depict the overall outlook of the series

They do, but my brain doesn't like the melody :p

Kyon was inconsiderate, or he just doesn't want to be bothered, and somehow Haruhi was a bother to him, dragging him around for nothing or so he thinks.

If it was Mikuru however... :D Bleh, if Haruhi wasn't a god, she wouldn't stand a chance :p Too bad the novel is named after Haruhi.

[Vexx]

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't really like Haruhi's OP/ED :p

I kind of like the OP (though it has a "situation comedy" kind of theme sound to it :\) - the lyrics fit the situation though ... not too fond of the ED other than it goes with the little dance so well - its kind of a toss off "omake" to me.

I can't get too overwrought about Kyon's massively stupid "I see" .... high school student caught in headlights of emotional cloudburst. The "Can I leave now?" though is a Class One troutslap offense. It wasn't "Are we done? I need to get home." ... ah well... here we go into the maelstrom of the next episode :)

It will be interesting to watch these in timeline order after the season is over to see how the subtle parts of their relationship shift.

edit: @npal ... ah then.. we're set. I prefer Haruhi over Mikuru .... one for you and one for me :) (keeps glancing over at Yuki.. argh)

[panzerfan]

Kyon comes out of the Ryoko issue quite 'together' to me (suddenly K1 from Higurashi emerges from my mind in comparison). His first responses are Nagato's conditions and how to cope with the fallout of the scenario (Nagato being the resident deity handles all of it) and still retaining his dry wits during Haruhi's investigation strikes me really.

I remember discussions like this occuring during Yuutsu episodes early on in the series. Maybe the setup of the situation with SOS just incite discussion.

[C.A.]

Its sad to observe a love triangle lol, I normally don't like watching love stories.

If Haruhi and Mikuru exchange places, the story would be so different, its unimaginable lol
I remember discussions like this occuring during Yuutsu episodes early on in the series. Maybe the setup of the situation with SOS just incite discussion.Yes it was really fun lol

[Kamui4356]

I agree that he doesn't want to be part of this chaos, he doesn't want to believe that he's the cause of everything. But if it was Mikuru who told Kyon the stuff Itsuki said, Kyon would probably believe alot more. Kyon really hates Itsuki lol, he comes up with a sarcastic remark or insult everytime Itsuki is mentioned in the novel lol

EDIT: lol people continue posting, its rather exciting to have so many posts going so quickly
Oh, I agree kyon would have been far more receptive if it had come from Mikuru. However, I still think he'd try to find a way to discount it. Not to mention there may be a bias against the information itself, rather than the source. Kyon sees Haruhi as a weird girl who may have strange powers. However, with what Itsuki told him, Haruhi may have created the universe. This means Haruhi may be god. That would require a radical shift in perspective to accept. The view Yuki presented of Haruhi being a human who happened to have developed abilities far beyond a normal person is easier to accept.

He should have been much more ready with the situation with Haruhi given the fact that he just experienced getting killed with Ryoko.
Actually, I see that as more reason for kyon to not want to know. Yuki would have intervened either way, and at some level he has to be thinking perhaps Asakura wouldn't have attacked if he didn't already know about the data entities. The more he knows, the more trouble he seems to get involved with.

[Truth-kun]

I don't blame Kyon though. He was at that time, held hostage against his will. He isn't happy to be with Haruhi at that moment, so he asked if he could go home. Kyon might not be the most girl experienced guy, so he wouldn't know how to know and deal with female moodswings.

[Vexx]

One of the things that sets this series apart from many others is the quality of discussion in these threads. There's very little "my gurl r0x, urs suxx0rs" or "Mech1X1 r teh best!!!", "He's the bestest shouter of all!!"

No, here we've discussed physics, philosophy, psychology, translation, concepts in science fiction, comparative literature, computation, human relationships, and there's even thread using the word "ontology" ... (heh).

((oh yeah..... cuteness, moe, and sexy but that is endemic to human thought AND for a change there are guys and girls for both audiences))

Unfortunately, there's no place for me to put a Mega Cookie for the whole melancholic forum, so this will have to do.

[C.A.]

Oh, I agree kyon would have been far more receptive if it had come from Mikuru. However, I still think he'd try to find a way to discount it. Not to mention there may be a bias against the information itself, rather than the source. Kyon sees Haruhi as a weird girl who may have strange powers. However, with what Itsuki told him, Haruhi may have created the universe. This means Haruhi may be god. That would require a radical shift in perspective to accept. The view Yuki presented of Haruhi being a human who happened to have developed abilities far beyond a normal person is easier to accept.Well, Kyon after seeing the 2 Data Entities fight, told adult Mikuru that: "I've become a person who's ready to believe anything at this point."

But I don't think this works with Haruhi and Itsuki lol, he just shrugs the both of them, he has no interest in the both of them at all, at this point. His biasness is pretty obvious.One of the things that sets this series apart from many others is the quality of discussion in these threads. There's very little "my gurl r0x, urs suxx0rs" or "Mech1X1 r teh best!!!", "He's the bestest shouter of all!!"

No, here we've discussed physics, philosophy, psychology, translation, concepts in science fiction, computation, human relationships, and there's even thread using the word "ontology" ... (heh).

((oh yeah..... cuteness, moe, and sexy but that is endemic to human thought AND for a change there are guys and girls for both audiences))

Unfortunately, there's no place for me to put a Mega Cookie for the whole melancholic forum, so this will have to do.Yes lol, I said something like this before in this post: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=577776&postcount=190

All hail Haruhiism!

[panzerfan]

Kyon has no real 'intent' or has any vested interest in Haruhi anyway other than concerns for her as a human being, so even if he might have girl experience he has no real reason to put on a front whatsoever. It may sound cruel coming from anyone but that is exactly what Kyon wants at that moment... I suppose. After everything short of a kitchen sink have been dumped on his head he needs a cool-down period to reach some sort of verdict and Haruhi is only at the heart of that mess.

[Vexx]

The interesting thing is that it is Kyon who made the initial moves in creating the relationship with Haruhi. He's the first one who just took her as she is. He's fascinated by her (or perhaps can't his eyes off of her in the way its hard to avert your eyes at a train wreck).

Someone with a bit more skill might have said, "I've got to get home. Can I walk you home or are you all right from here?"

[C.A.]

The interesting thing is that it is Kyon who made the initial moves in creating the relationship with Haruhi. He's the first one who just took her as she is. He's fascinated by her (or perhaps can't his eyes off of her in the way its hard to avert your eyes at a train wreck).

Someone with a bit more skill might have said, "I've got to get home. Can I walk you home or are you all right from here?"Then in this case, we can say that Haruhi is the one who wrecks Kyon's attention to her lol, by bringing in Mikuru.

[Vexx]

Nasty things, tests are.... we would hates them my precious (if they weren't so moe cute).

[Moogster]

Someone with a bit more skill might have said, "I've got to get home. Can I walk you home or are you all right from here?"

I can see that you really are disturbed on Kyon's response to Haruhi :heh:

[Truth-kun]

Kyon was definitely attracted to Haruhi at first, which is why he unintently talked to her. But then knowing all the things related to her, from being a god and everything, plus the fact that someone tried to kill him because of her, scared him. That might be the reason why he feels the way he feels at that moment.

[C.A.]

lol and there's people who claim this story isn't a love story.

We have Kyon attracted to Haruhi at first, finds that she's even more eccentric than he once thought.

Next, Haruhi brings in Mikuru, who Kyon falls in love at first sight.

Kyon's attraction for Mikuru deepens when Mikuru gets forced into really cute cosplays. But Kyon hates Haruhi even more because she does such perverted acts lol. Mikuru at the same time feels something for Kyon because he's such a good guy and stuff.

Haruhi finds herself jealous of Mikuru every now and then, while Kyon falls for Mikuru even more every second.

Mikuru knows that she shouldn't be close to Kyon because of Haruhi.

Kyon doesn't care or know what Haruhi feels and further upsets her.

Can't go on from here, it will become spoilers lol, this show truly has a love triangle thats doomed from the start.

[LCeh]

The interesting thing is that it is Kyon who made the initial moves in creating the relationship with Haruhi. He's the first one who just took her as she is. He's fascinated by her (or perhaps can't his eyes off of her in the way its hard to avert your eyes at a train wreck).

That's a very interesting thought, never thought of that before.

Kyon was still good until he came up with the speech that he was proud of about geniuses. After that he got dragged into SOS dan and all the matters related, and had to keep doing things that he didn't want to do, which is why he acts so coldly towards Haruhi. He just sees her as a trouble maker and nothing more. But he was definitely attracted to her at the beginning because she was an interesting person, as well as her being so beautiful, which he mentioned himself.

I wonder if Kyon's thoughts on Haruhi changed after this ep?

Someone with a bit more skill might have said, "I've got to get home. Can I walk you home or are you all right from here?"

Nah, I don't think it mattered. I think Haruhi would have been pissed either way. :p

[Vexx]

Heh.... not making too big a deal I hope.... "Can I leave now?" just sounds so cold, up to that instant I think she was kind of semi-happy-but-frustrated and that line just sat there and sank into the earth.

...thus setting up the next episode. :)

[Deathkillz]

to me i think that suzumiya is changing quite a bit being pissed of so easily...before she would have just expressed herself (by annoying others) or just ignore insignificant beings...but now her chara seems to be changing to hide things inside herself...depression is a bad thing :( still hasnt fully recovered from the concert i see...

[LCeh]

The concert hasn't happened yet, in terms of the chronological order. ;)

EDIT:

Beat ya C.A. :D

[C.A.]

to me i think that suzumiya is changing quite a bit being pissed of so easily...before she would have just expressed herself (by annoying others) or just ignore insignificant beings...but now her chara seems to be changing to hide things inside herself...depression is a bad thing :( still hasnt fully recovered from the concert i see...lol you have been confused by the episode order.

This episode didn't happen after the festival, instead this happened like 7 months before it lol.

This is how the episodes are when they are arranged chronologically:

Chronologically/Air time

Episode 1/2 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅰ
Episode 2/3 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅱ
Episode 3/5 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅲ
Episode 4/10 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅳ
Episode 5/13 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅴ
Episode 6/14 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅵ
Episode 7/4 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Taikutsu
Episode 8/7 - Mysterious Sign
Episode 9/6 - Lone Island Syndrome (Part 1)
Episode 10/8 - Lone Island Syndrome (Part 2)
Episode 11/1 - Asahina Mikuru no Bouken Episode 00
Episode 12/12 - Live a Live
Episode 13/11 - Day of Sagittarius
Episode 14/9 - Someday in the Rain

[Deathkillz]

lol you have been confused by the episode order.

This episode didn't happen after the festival, instead this happened like 7 months before it lol.

This is how the episodes are when they are arranged chronologically:

Chronologically/Air time

Episode 1/2 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅰ
Episode 2/3 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅱ
Episode 3/5 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅲ
Episode 4/10 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅳ
Episode 5/13 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅴ
Episode 6/14 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu Ⅵ
Episode 7/4 - Suzumiya Haruhi no Taikutsu
Episode 8/7 - Mysterious Sign
Episode 9/6 - Lone Island Syndrome (Part 1)
Episode 10/8 - Lone Island Syndrome (Part 2)
Episode 11/1 - Asahina Mikuru no Bouken Episode 00
Episode 12/12 - Live a Live
Episode 13/11 - Day of Sagittarius
Episode 14/9 - Someday in the Rain

gah hate the timeline -____- well it just shows that she has been crumbling quite early then...btw would it make sense if i rewatch the anime again following the right timeline? different perspective? :heh:

[LCeh]

Yes, I would say it would give you another perspective, yea.

Haruhi is not crumbling, she is just getting very very frustrated at her situation, but she can't seem to do anything about it, not knowing that she has already got what she wanted (alien, time traveller, esper). She has been keeping her thoughts to herself all through her life, and finally she has met someone that she can trust and can talk to, and so she told Kyon everything. Kyon is a bastard for not responding. :p

[C.A.]

gah hate the timeline -____- well it just shows that she has been crumbling quite early then...btw would it make sense if i rewatch the anime again following the right timeline? different perspective? :heh:Yes you should rewatch the show again chronologically, it will clear things up a bit but won't be more enjoyable than watching it rearranged.

[panzerfan]

And I stand that Kyon is acting on the basis that there is insufficient conclusion that has been drawn for him to act in any effective manner and to act calliously given the calibur of Suzumiya Haruhi... philisophical anecdotes that he thinks of presenting falls mostly to deaf ears when spoken to Haruhi, giving him very little incentive to offer such repose.

Besides, when one has been bruised from sharp tongue the obvious response is to return with words that cuts as well. Haruhi's moment of vulnerability proves to be one such moment despite that just presents itself without great fanfare. I wouldn't be surprised if Kyon thought along that line, if only a little as Haruhi pours forth her feelings out. Afterall, “revenge is a confession of pain” and Kyon's sour words (used without much constraint within his narriation from time to time) are potent in that role.

It is just as much melancholy of Kyon as it is for Haruhi.

[Lost]

She created this club hoping that exciting stuff would start happening. It hasn't. Her other motive for starting SOS Dan (probably hidden from herself) is to spend time with Kyon, but he's being a jerk. I can't blame her for being a little melancholic.
Kyon's definitely one of the major reasons for her, "mental instability" as Koizumi calls it. He's just so indifferent to her!! I liked the intro; where he says how it has always been his dream to walk home with a girl, and yet he closes by saying how he wonders why he isn't enjoying it. Then, when he should be noticing the melancholy of Haruhi at the train tracks, he opens his mouth and says the WORSE thing possible in that situation. Not just once, but twice. TWICE. Ignored TWO chances to get meaningful with Haruhi. :frustrated:

Listening to Kyon's "choose your next move" before saying "I see" .... best bad choice out of three very bad choices. At that moment I suspect he feels like he's caught on a treadmill. Haruhi's upset but she can't really articulate why (unconsciously hoping for something soothing from Kyon instead of "I see" and "Can I leave now?" ... ouch.. that must have hurt ... -10 for style).
EXACTLY. I'm quite sure that that cold "Can I leave now" triggered her monologue.

About this episode, I enjoyed it very much. Unlike episode 12 which appealed to my emotional side, this one appealed to me logical side, and forced me to expend some lazy neurons trying to work out the Anthropic principle ~ still not too sure if I got it, a rewatch is in order. I didnt find the dialogue in this episode boring or draggy at all; in fact I was enraptured the whole way thru; especially at Koizumi's convo.

but what do Haruhi find in this world that's fun?
Its really sad that Haruhi's realisation of the humongous # of people in the world, and that they were doing the same thing as her, made her lose joy in the everyday things she was doing, and had previously found fun in. Really sad, and thats why your quote there, C.A., summs it up so well.

One of the things that sets this series apart from many others is the quality of discussion in these threads. There's very little "my gurl r0x, urs suxx0rs" or "Mech1X1 r teh best!!!", "He's the bestest shouter of all!!"
Are you sure thats not just in our forums only? I've heard some stuff about extreme Haruhi fandom; to the likes of your quote. :heh: Anyhow, in accordance with your post:

Okay, I made an observation I thought would be interesting to post. Anthropic principle, put very simply in Koizumi's words, is : "I observe, therefore the Universe exists." (In my own understand; don't know if I'm wrong: Humans exist, observe and discover, and therefore the Universe exists; if Humans didnt observe/discover, then it would matter if it existed at all becuase its existance would not be known) He parallels this same principle to Haruhi, saying that her wishing for aliens, thus results in Yuki appearing; and likewise with himslef and Mikuru.

As the existance of Humans "permits" the existance of the Universe, the existance of Haruhi (and her wishes) permits the existance of those three.

However, enlighten me, but (notwithstanding Kyon's retort that it doesnt matter if we observe or not, it still exists) doesnt she also break that principle. In the aspect of the close space. I'm assuming Haruhi doesnt have a clue that such a space exists. Yet, despite her not knowing that about it, it exists. Doesnt that contradict the principle?

[Truth-kun]

Poor Kyon gets all the hate in this episode.

Though he'll repent afterwards for sure XD

[Moogster]

I've been thinking, don't you guys think the reason why Koizumi's fight with the Celestial was like too far to be seen because of Kyon's point of vision for that fight was far too? Maybe I'm thinking too much on it. :sweat:

Edit:

Sorry, typing mistakes :heh:

[Lost]

Eh I cant understand your post. ^

[Trax]

Poor Kyon gets all the hate in this episode.

Personally, I don't really see why. It's easy to make judgement calls as a viewer, but I don't see anyone trying to look at it from Kyon's perspective. About the walking home with a girl comment, he gets dragged along by Haruhi to do something he doesn't want to do, as usual. Ofcourse he isn't enjoying that. So he wanted to get it over with and go home. As for his reaction after Haruhi's little story, his first instinct was ofcourse to make some wisecrack since that's in his personality. But he didn't because it wasn't appropriate here and he just didn't know what to say. Nothing strange about that imo.

[npal]

^ Well, yes, nothing strange but his social skills seemed lacking in that particular scene, unless he really dislikes Haruhi and doesn't care much about how she feels.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

^ Well, yes, nothing strange but his social skills seemed lacking in that particular scene, unless he really dislikes Haruhi and doesn't care much about how she feels.
In this sense, perhaps it's the stereotype at work. Haruhi wanted to get a response from Kyon for her telling Kyon so much about herself, but neither does Kyon nor Haruhi herself know what the appropriate response was. For that matter, I am not sure Haruhi knew she likes Kyon at this point; "Someday in the rain" is many weeks, if not months, later in the time-line.

[CrowKenobi]

Personally, I don't really see why. It's easy to make judgement calls as a viewer, but I don't see anyone trying to look at it from Kyon's perspective. About the walking home with a girl comment, he gets dragged along by Haruhi to do something he doesn't want to do, as usual. Ofcourse he isn't enjoying that. So he wanted to get it over with and go home. On top of that, he already knows what happened to Ryoko and has to go along with Haruhi because he has no way to get out of it without spilling the beans to her, thus making him more grumpier than usual. :D

[Vexx]

The Anthropic principle kind of spins off from several arenas.
1) The "observer" requirement in quantum mechanics. Seriously, if no one looked at the Moon to collapse its collective waveform, it would begin to "smear" as its probability matrix spread into various possibilities. With no one to observe, the whole universe stays in a "Schrodinger's Cat" limbo of probability. Thats one interpretation of the results of quantum physics.
2) The constants problem which Itsuki referred to - if any single constant was even slightly different, its not just that *we* wouldn't be here, organic life at all wouldn't be possible, possibly not even structures like planets. Things look the way they are and we are here because no other set of constants permits it. If you subscribe to the "branching reality" or "parallel worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanic experiments - this is one of the few realities that permit life much less intelligence.

Of course, "google is your friend" but there are some excellent lay physics books by people like Stephen Hawking, Bohm, and such with various interpretations.
I can recommend an entertaining little book called "Schrodinger's Kittens and the Search For Reality" by John Gribbin which covers some interesting fallout of Bell's theorem as well. He also wrote "In Search of Schrodinger's Cat" if the other is too mind-bending.

------
I think VCV tags the situation pretty well. Neither of them probably knew what response was wanted themselves. And we're not damning Kyon so much as lamenting the sadness of his choice. It actually seems kind of fate-driven inevitability that it is going to have to get bad before it gets better.
I have to be careful and remember at this point in their relationship, he's known her just long enough to be really frustrated by her and "typical japanese teen" enough to be an ass.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

2) The constants problem which Itsuki referred to - if any single constant was even slightly different, its not just that *we* wouldn't be here, organic life at all wouldn't be possible, possibly not even structures like planets. Things look the way they are and we are here because no other set of constants permits it. If you subscribe to the "branching reality" or "parallel worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanic experiments - this is one of the few realities that permit life much less intelligence.
But this particular theory isn't a theory at all... Probability only applies for unknowns, you can't measure probability of something occurring using a single sample.

The assumption, is that something is important only because there is a human to notice it. This isn't a fair statement, because humans determine "importance" as anything that matters to humans, a selfish statement if there ever was one.

Further, to determining the probability of something occurring in the future is one thing, but to determine the probability of something occurring when it has already occurred is meaningless. Determining the chance of winning the lottery by sampling the list of lottery winners, for example, is utter garbage statistics.


Anything that has already happened, has 100% chance to have happened. It didn't matter how improbable it was, because probability doesn't involve known values. You can't say "it's impossible for you to die of lung cancer! The odds are too low!" when the person involved is already on the way to the morgue with a malignant growth that filled his entire chest cavity.

So...
1. We have only one universe we could observe. Thus, the sample size is one. A sample size of one is infinitely impossible to be used in determining anything about probability. (The "probability" that a universe could support life is a bogus number, since we don't know of any universe but our own.)

Put it another way, it's like trying to determine the odds of winning the lottery by looking at a single set of winning lottery numbers; you know how many balls are drawn, and you know some of the numbers on the ball. But you don't know the total numbers of balls used in the lottery, nor the numbering system. Therefore it's impossible to determine the odds of winning the lottery by having one set of winning numbers and nothing else... Yet, that's exactly how all those "odds of life" were created from. (It makes me VERY angry that people use random numbers to prove how unlikely life was, yet the numbers themselves are nothing but complicated guesstimates!)(note: not aiming at any one on this forum)

2. Since the known universe needed to support life for humans to exist at all, even the sample of one is a loaded sample that can't be trusted. Thus, the only sample, already useless, is rendered even less useful to determine the probability of life.

[Vexx]

But this particular theory isn't a theory at all... Probability only applies for unknowns, you can't measure probability of something occurring using a single sample.

The assumption, is that something is important only because there is a human to notice it. This isn't a fair statement, because humans determine "importance" as anything that matters to humans, a selfish statement if there ever was one.

Further, to determining the probability of something occurring in the future is one thing, but to determine the probability of something occurring when it has already occurred is meaningless. Determining the chance of winning the lottery by sampling the list of lottery winners, for example, is utter garbage statistics.


Anything that has already happened, has 100% chance to have happened. It didn't matter how improbable it was, because probability doesn't involve known values. You can't say "it's impossible for you to die of lung cancer! The odds are too low!" when the person involved is already on the way to the morgue with a malignant growth that filled his entire chest cavity.

So...
1. We have only one universe we could observe. Thus, the sample size is one. A sample size of one is infinitely impossible to be used in determining anything about probability. (The "probability" that a universe could support life is a bogus number, since we don't know of any universe but our own.)

Put it another way, it's like trying to determine the odds of winning the lottery by looking at a single set of winning lottery numbers; you know how many balls are drawn, and you know some of the numbers on the ball. But you don't know the total numbers of balls used in the lottery, nor the numbering system. Therefore it's impossible to determine the odds of winning the lottery by having one set of winning numbers and nothing else... Yet, that's exactly how all those "odds of life" were created from. (It makes me VERY angry that people use random numbers to prove how unlikely life was, yet the numbers themselves are nothing but complicated guesstimates!)(note: not aiming at any one on this forum)

2. Since the known universe needed to support life for humans to exist at all, even the sample of one is a loaded sample that can't be trusted. Thus, the only sample, already useless, is rendered even less useful to determine the probability of life.

I'm not sure what you're answering or disputing because you're discussing classical probability and statistics... and I'm talking about quantum mechanical probability matrices wherein a entity may have multiple superimposed phase states, all of which "exist" until an observation is made.

The constants problem is not one of "probability"... its if you alter any constant (like the fine constant or the nuclear strong force) and do the math ... atoms won't even hold together, large structures can't form. I *think* the "odds of life" you're discussing is that Drake's theorem nonsense for life chances on other star systems -- something completely different.

The Anthropic Principle is interesting speculation and I don't have a strong opinion on it, but people a lot smarter than anyone on this forum, myself included, are seriously discussing it and its worth learning about and what the different opinions are.

[Anh_Minh]

So...
1. We have only one universe we could observe. Thus, the sample size is one. A sample size of one is infinitely impossible to be used in determining anything about probability. (The "probability" that a universe could support life is a bogus number, since we don't know of any universe but our own.)

Yes, but we do have a few educated guesses as to how universes are formed. And, according to our best theories, our most complete (least incomplete?) understanding of physics, our chances of getting an inhabitable universe were low.

Even if we were able to reproduce the Big Bang better than a photocopier can reproduce a text, chances are we wouldn't get something with life as we know it in it.

Anthropic principle is basically "We're alive. Wow."

It can mean that our understanding is flawed. Big time. Some people say it means divine intervention. Maybe it means something even more exotic.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I'm not sure what you're answering or disputing because you're discussing classical probablity and statistics... and I'm talking about quantum mechanical probability matrices wherein a entity may have multiple superimposed phase states, all of which "exist" until an observation is made.
But you naturally haven an infinite amount of probabilities, when you know zero limitations!;)

It's not that anything and everything is possible; it's that we don't know enough to narrow the field down. If I ask you for a number between 1 and 10, I have 1/10 chance of guessing correctly. But if you assume there is no need for the number to be an interger, then the probability is infinite and the number becomes infinitely impossible to guess.

Your statement concerning quantum mechanics assumes that observation determines reality. This might be practically, functionally, true. But that's only a model. The assumption is that the lack of information isn't the fault of the observer, but that the universe would decide the outcome at the time of our choosing.

A practical model doesn't generate reality; it merely imitates it. Schrodinger's cat knows full well if itself is alive or dead, even if the silly and cruel human refuses to open the box.

Even if we were able to reproduce the Big Bang better than a photocopier can reproduce a text, chances are we wouldn't get something with life as we know it in it.
Ah... "life as we know it"...

You are not talking about the probability of a universe than can support life anymore... You are talking about the probability to have identical results twice in a roll.

To restrict the parameter to "life as we know it", would be like requesting the same lottery numbers to repeat from last week. That's no longer a probability of life existing, but the probability of things repeating. In that case, the data is once again bogus, meaningless and a waste of research funds.:D

[martino]

I was a bit dissapointed by this episode. I dunno, but it's not really like I learned anything new. This is the first episode that I didn't find funny. I don't mean that SHnY is just about comedy, but it just doesn't feel right. I was waiting for something exciting to happen. I guess I'll just have to wait for episode 14...wait...s**t. I will be on holiday when it will be released with not access to internet for two weeks!
*starts preparing for the worst case scenarion*

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I was a bit dissapointed by this episode. I dunno, but it's not really like I learned anything new. This is the first episode that I didn't find funny. I don't mean that SHnY is just about comedy, but it just doesn't feel right. I was waiting for something exciting to happen. I guess I'll just have to wait for episode 14...wait...s**t. I will be on holiday when it will be released with not access to internet for two weeks!
*starts preparing for the worst case scenarion*
I am not making excuses for KyoAni, but this episode is actually only one-half of a whole. You are suppose to watch this back-to-back with the next episode, at least if you are imitating the extra-long novel chapter. It's unfortunate, but this episode has very little but explanations.

[Vexx]

The cat is not necessarily the best metaphor, but I suggest you take a look at the recent "delayed choice" experiments on photons through slits. It heavily implies the photons relied on choices made in the future to determine how they pass through the slits. The cat example ignored the sentience observer status of the cat .. a better example would be a chemical reaction waiting to happen.

You're still arguing apples and oranges or I'm missing how your examples apply here .... I said "multiple" not "infinite". There are limitations on the probability wave shape for any entity defined by the wave equation, e.g. it is more likely an electron will be lurking near its atom than a light year away. I keep getting the feeling you're using classical probability to discuss or dispute theoretical physics but perhaps that is just the limitations of our forum fun here.

If you alter even slightly the physical constants of the universe, most artifacts or entities become impossible (atoms collapse, molecules are unable to form, etc). Even "life as we don't know it" would be impossible. During the Big Bang, it seems that many choices were possible (at least according to the math).

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

If you alter even slightly the physical constants of the universe, most artifacts or entities become impossible (atoms collapse, molecules are unable to form, etc). Even "life as we don't know it" would be impossible. During the Big Bang, it seems that many choices were possible (at least according to the math).
I know what you are on about, but the fact remains. You can't determine something you can't imagine, to be impossible. Math exists as models to explain and predict things that we could detect, but they get less useful or accurate as more unknowns and assumptions were added.

Using my lottery analogy, you can help predict the manner in which a particular lottery result is obtained by checking the single winning set of numbers. But there is only so much you can guess before everything becomes random hunches. After all, how many balls are used in the lottery? If 7 balls are used for a 7 number lottery, the odds to win is much greater than having 3000 unique balls used for a 7 number lottery. Yet, we only have a single set of numbers to work with (like we only have a single universe to work with).
Sure, we can assume from the numbers on the winning set that there isn't more than 50 balls, especially if none of the numbers in the winning set is over 50. But that's only an assumption, and doesn't mean there isn't 3000 balls in the draw. In the same way, we can assume there are only a narrow parameter in which life could exist, but that's only a guess; math can go far, but not far enough.


There may very well be more than one way to create a universe, but all we've got is the one we are dwelling in. Just because there is difficulty imagining something that doesn't exist, doesn't mean it can't exist. This is a very common misconception for all humans; we are supposedly so knowledgeable, that we know everything, even for things that we don't know. (ironically, religion isn't free from this; faith is used in just the same way by people to make themselves feel smarter. It's so much harder to figure out gravity than just say God pushes the celestial bodies around personally with His hands.)

[Noppapana]

god ... this discussion is too difficult to understand
anyways after watching this ep, I feel sorry for Haruhi
She tried her best to get close to Kyon but it had failed everytime
and she was dissapointed time after time

Kyon is really baka baka
Somehow i cant blame Kyon for this. He only sees Haruhi as a classmate no more and no less. He is only interested in Mikuru.

[Jacalee]

I feel sorry for Haruhi
She tried her best to get close to Kyon but it had failed everytime
and she was dissapointed time after time


= =
I don't think so.

This woman is straightforward. If she feels unhappy on kyon she will show her displeasure immediately.

Haruhi's disappointment just becauce she eventually can't find abnormal things out from surrounding, IMO.

[FatPianoBoy]

... :Ignores the overanalytical ramblings:


Somehow i cant blame Kyon for this. He only sees Haruhi as a classmate no more and no less. He is only interested in Mikuru.

More evidence of Kyonism, methinks.


If no one's used the term 'Kyonism' before, then I trademark it right here and now.

[Kaioshin Sama]

I know what you are on about, but the fact remains. You can't determine something you can't imagine, to be impossible. Math exists as models to explain and predict things that we could detect, but they get less useful or accurate as more unknowns and assumptions were added.

Using my lottery analogy, you can help predict the manner in which a particular lottery result is obtained by checking the single winning set of numbers. But there is only so much you can guess before everything becomes random hunches. After all, how many balls are used in the lottery? If 7 balls are used for a 7 number lottery, the odds to win is much greater than having 3000 unique balls used for a 7 number lottery. Yet, we only have a single set of numbers to work with (like we only have a single universe to work with).
Sure, we can assume from the numbers on the winning set that there isn't more than 50 balls, especially if none of the numbers in the winning set is over 50. But that's only an assumption, and doesn't mean there isn't 3000 balls in the draw. In the same way, we can assume there are only a narrow parameter in which life could exist, but that's only a guess; math can go far, but not far enough.


There may very well be more than one way to create a universe, but all we've got is the one we are dwelling in. Just because there is difficulty imagining something that doesn't exist, doesn't mean it can't exist. This is a very common misconception for all humans; we are supposedly so knowledgeable, that we know everything, even for things that we don't know. (ironically, religion isn't free from this; faith is used in just the same way by people to make themselves feel smarter. It's so much harder to figure out gravity than just say God pushes the celestial bodies around personally with His hands.)

There was a book my friend let me read one time in a lecture we were both really bored in, Flatland I believe it was called. Anyway the book dealt with the subject of how a being existing on a 2D plane was trying to explain to us what its like to live in a 2D plane of existance, and then one day a 3D object visits his world of Flatland and he can't see or prove it is a 3D object because all he sees is a straight line and has only the objects (I believe it was a sphere) word to go on. Then I believe the 3D object starts explaining to him what its like to live in a 3D world and it blows his mind since he can't comprehend it until he visits the third dimension himself. The book basically challenges us to try and imagine other dimensions which we can't see or comprehend and it was pretty interesting for the 50 minutes I got to sit and read it for. Anyway I recommend this book since it was an interesting read even though I never finished it. It also has social elements to it as well, here's a wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

There was a book my friend let me read one time in a lecture we were both really bored in, Flatland I believe it was called. Anyway the book dealt with the subject of how a being existing on a 2D plane was trying to explain to us what its like to live in a 2D plane of existance, and then one day a 3D object visits his world of Flatland and he can't see or prove it is a 3D object because all he sees is a straight line and has only the objects (I believe it was a sphere) word to go on. Then I believe the 3D object starts explaining to him what its like to live in a 3D world and it blows his mind since he can't comprehend it until he visits the third dimension himself. The book basically challenges us to try and imagine other dimensions which we can't see or comprehend and it was pretty interesting for the 50 minutes I got to sit and read it for. Anyway I recommend this book since it was an interesting read even though I never finished it. It also has social elements to it as well, here's a wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland
I have not read the book, but have indeed heard about it in the past.

Your example is almost essential to the understanding of why any predictions on the options of an universe is flawed; we can't dismiss a universe as uninhabitable just because we don't think it can support life.

[Noppapana]

= =
I don't think so.

This woman is straightforward. If she feels unhappy on kyon she will show her displeasure immediately.

Haruhi's disappointment just becauce she eventually can't find abnormal things out from surrounding, IMO.

if she was so straightforward, why doesnt she confess her feelings to Kyon ?
She can also be dissapointed in other ppl like in episode 4

More evidence of Kyonism, methinks.


If no one's used the term 'Kyonism' before, then I trademark it right here and now.

what do you mean with Kyonism ?

[Zangetsu]

is this truly the last ep?

[C.A.]

is this truly the last ep?All sources indicate that episode 14 = last episode.

[Orchunter226]

if she was so straightforward, why doesnt she confess her feelings to Kyon ?


I think, that she is having trouble admitting the feelings to herself as well.

[Vexx]

<sigh> if you can't even form atoms because the nuclear force is too strong or structural artifacts are impossible because pi is off a bit, there's simply no material on which to build life, even organized energy fields are impossible. Life can take on many forms, non-carbon, energry, blahblah --- but there are some basic constraints on any organizing principles that require physical constants be within certain ranges.

The book Flatland also contained the story of how the 2-d creature used the evidence he had to *predict* and *surmise* the nature of 3-space based on the indirect evidence he had... just like we're able to surmise the nature of spacetime from our indirect observations.

That means there may be some amazing variations on *life* in many sorts of universes, a much smaller subset of them may include self-aware life and even fewer may include life which has acheived some form of critical thinking skills outside of eat, poop, and mate. But some universes simply will be dead on arrival.

I really suggest you read more theoretical physics and examine the reasoning before you call it flawed. Or at least stand out of arm's reach of physicists.

[panzerfan]

Anthropic principle's major criticism with its truist stance basically would be a way to look at Vallen Chaos Valiant said...
we can't dismiss a universe as uninhabitable just because we don't think it can support life.

Going to Vexx's original points on the observer requirement. I thought that with waveform collapse we're just randoming seeing 1 of the the possibilities when we, in Vexx's example, look at the moon. All possibilities should be retained if nobody takes a 'peek-a-boo' at the cat.

Itsuki's argument would be waveform collapse leading to this 1 set of solution that we human take as axioms of the universe. Of course that's only one way to look at it... as Vexx mentioned, if it's decoherence model which leads to the impression of waveform collapse, we will see superposition of multiple states...

Drake equation is a 'guesstimate' but the study of quantum mechanic focuses on in the Drake application, whether if extraterrestrial life is a possible state for the system (we can leave the probability out that as that is what Drake equation does....

I suppose it's safe to say that observation is either 1 of the realities or that it is the part of the picture in reality that we actually can make sense of (and the remaining reality are just noise to us... basically Bohm model)

(God this sounds like ontology doesn't it... and there goes any shred of ease of reading comprehension, as most quantum discussions are...)

[CrowKenobi]

(God this sounds like ontology doesn't it... and there goes any shred of ease of reading comprehension, as most quantum discussions are...) ... :Ignores the overanalytical ramblings: Perhaps for the reasons above any more of this talk should move to the ontology thread... :twitch:

btw, has there been any branch of philosphy and quantum mechanics that we haven't talked about yet? :D

[Vexx]

Agreed, we've strayed from the topic of this thread somewhat --- though we did start off discussing the Anthropic Principle (or speculation if that sounds better) which comprises a significant part of the episode. Darn that Itsuki....

[Lost]

Gah. Gah.

No, please don't move anything to the Ontology thread, some of what was discussed is essential to understanding Itsuki's statement on that removal of constants.

I could barely follow along with it; and due to the lack of my knowledge the only thing I can agree/disagree with is:

Yes, the fact that we can't imagine how something might be, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I like that bringing up of Flathand, fits the discussion very well. My modest example: angels/divine forms ~ "heaven; God", what have you. I often wondered what their bodies are like; their "physiologies" (sp), in a sense. I have no idea what their bodies/physiologies might be like; and I dont think I could even come close to imagining it - it may be in ways I could never think of, yet that does not mean they might not exist. Same would go for alien life on other planets.

And VCV, I have to object to your generalization of religion and faith.

Anyhow, to bring this back to the anime at hand; (and I'm only realizing this after reading thru that discussion - so its not all useless :p Jk) so I guess Koizumi brought up the constants thing to put force on his believe that Haruhi created the Universe. It could not come by chance, but it had to appear by her sentient wishing.

But the part bugging me is that Haruhi is a part of the Universe. If it didnt exist before her, then where was SHE in the first place, to have wished a Universe into existance. A probable answer would be on a different plane/dimension/level, where another Universe (one that we can't imagine; yet doesnt mean it doesnt exist) already exists.

[Lost]

Btw, this helped me understand a little bit of Schrodinger's cat (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html). I will try to read up on the topic.

[Prodigious]

<sigh> if you can't even form atoms because the nuclear force is too strong or structural artifacts are impossible because pi is off a bit, there's simply no material on which to build life, even organized energy fields are impossible. Life can take on many forms, non-carbon, energry, blahblah --- but there are some basic constraints on any organizing principles that require physical constants be within certain ranges.

The book Flatland also contained the story of how the 2-d creature used the evidence he had to *predict* and *surmise* the nature of 3-space based on the indirect evidence he had... just like we're able to surmise the nature of spacetime from our indirect observations.

That means there may be some amazing variations on *life* in many sorts of universes, a much smaller subset of them may include self-aware life and even fewer may include life which has acheived some form of critical thinking skills outside of eat, poop, and mate. But some universes simply will be dead on arrival.

I really suggest you read more theoretical physics and examine the reasoning before you call it flawed. Or at least stand out of arm's reach of physicists.
It's possible for physical components to exist in a different capacity. Yes, if physical constants were changed even slightly, elementary particles as we know them would not be able to form larger components, or even exist. However, who is to say that there couldn't be a completely different set of particles and interactions which would allow for a universe just as rich and complex as this but fundamentally(in every sense of the word) different? Would it be a rare occurence for a bunch of haphazard laws to harmonize and create a universe that can support life? Sure, but we exist don't we? ;)

Hell even the arrow of time is a something which could have just as easily been set in reverse during the big bang. It is difficult for human beings to imagine a universe where people are born from their graves, die in the womb, and a fried omlette turns into an egg, but it that is because we are accustomed to the way things are in our realm of existence, where the cause leads to an effect and we gain memories from the past.

[Lost]

^ Nice points, again reinforces the point that we cannot limit existence to the confines of our perception and imagination.

Would it be a rare occurence for a bunch of haphazard laws to harmonize and create a universe that can support life? Sure, but we exist don't we?
Thats the thing I think Itsuki is trying to point at. (To him) It would be too rare for the laws to not only harmonize, but to be designed in the first place, by chance. Enter, Haruhi; unconscious designer of that Universe; unconscious God. :heh:

[arias]

Btw, this helped me understand a little bit of Schrodinger's cat (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html). I will try to read up on the topic.

Actually, alot of the more advanced physics "problems" like Schroedinger's cat and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle are pretty much domains that go into philosophy.. some of the proposed "solutions" to them by physicists are rather good, but others are hopelessly naive. There should be more participation in it from the philosophers, but I figure not many of them are well educated in physics and don't want to seem to be stretching it..

[panzerfan]

Well it has been noted that physicists oftentime ended up being philosophers.

Although... we should be careful. For example, Einstein's writing of relativity isn't equal to relativism which has no such belief as the existence of a central axiom to be a point of reference (speed of light is unchanging and absolute axiom) yet some would intermix the two... ( for example, the velocity to all things that move relative to an observer and time is relative between observers depending on their relative velocity to each other and to the speed of light) Classical relativism would state that your speed is absolute to yourself and my judgement on your speed is just as valid.

*Quantum mechanic's closer to relativism as things are not deterministic and very depending on the POV. I suppose different waveform collapses would be observed by different observers as they watch an event such as... look up at the moon due to the various states that can be picked out of the bag.

Somebody like Einstein might enjoy the Bohm interpretation more given its more deterministic nature and... that wave are particles that exists in a decoherent state (so it's there and it's not at the same time to us the observers). How decoherence ties in with Hilbert space is something that is beyond me as a layman though...

[arcticphoenix16]

Wow, the academic level of this discussion is more crazy than any other anime/gaming forums I've been to. Haruhi wins!

[Truth-kun]

Haruhi brings the most out of Her disciples. Hahaha. And to think that this series is only a portion of the whole Suzumiya Haruhi series! Amazing.

[Deathkillz]

meh and some say that watching too much TV is bad for you -___- it can be quite educational and trains our mind *watches more*

[Lost]

Technically, this isn't even close to mainstream TV; at least, not where I live. :frustrated: No way this Gem can be compared to TV :p

[Vexx]

Seriously... don't take *any* of us as particularly experts at this. There are a pile of decently written books for the educated layperson that explain these ideas much more clearly than anyone can in a forum. I've forgotten more about Hamiltonian matrices, Hilbert spaces, topology, and other forms of physics-related math than I care to contemplate. And I'm adding to my reading list some books I need to reread to make sure I'm actually articulating concepts properly (I know I pureed a few up there in the posts because of the brevity issue in a thread).

[Ardee]

Poor Kyon gets all the hate in this episode.

And here's another chain of reasoning why it's probably not deserved:

First step, why is "Kyon" the subject of discussion out of all the people in the world? Because he's the one we see talking to Haruhi. Second, why does she confide in him (This time and in general)? It's something about the type of person he is, and his personality. Third, what type of resonse do you get of of someone with his personality? Well, the dull "I see" kind.

In other words, if he were the type of person to give a more exuberant response, then he wouldn't be the type of person she'd be talking to about it and we wouldn't have seen the conversation to have this discussion. It's a variant of the Anthropic Prinicple :heh:

(Miraculously, this must be the only forum thread in existence where that phrase doesn't have to be explained!)

[Jacalee]

if she was so straightforward, why doesnt she confess her feelings to Kyon ?
She can also be dissapointed in other ppl like in episode 4


I suppose every audience could know the feeling of Haruhi to Kyon. :)

She doesn‘t represent such a passion as ep 13 in ep 4 (she guesses the chairman of computer association just catchs a May Syndrome.) and doesn't feels any disappointment. Ordinarily she is an optimistic girl, isn't she?:heh:

[FatPianoBoy]

what do you mean with Kyonism ?

Haruhiism = the belief that Haruhi is 'God' and has created and controls the universe.
Kyonism = the belief that Kyon is in fact the one who designed everything and is currently calling the shots.

Basically, in light of how everything seems to go the way that's best for Kyon (whether he admits he likes it or not), and not always so for Haruhi (see episodes 5 and 13), I find it hard to believe that Haruhi is in fact in control of everything. Rather, I'm thinking that Haruhi does indeed create data like Yuki described, but Kyon is the one who decides what data is created. The series and the novels are riddled with microscopic clues to this effect.
In the novel, Kyon says something to the effect of how he always wished he could be the sidekick of some incredible person that gets to have all the fun without the responsibility or danger. Maybe even coming in at a crucial moment with an astute observation and giving the hero the opportunity to save the day. Well, that's exactly what happened, right?
Also, in episode five, it's obvious that Haruhi wants to go tromping around alone with Kyon, but instead Kyon gets what he wants and ends up alone with Mikuru. In thirteen, Haruhi desperately wants to find clues regarding Asakura, but Kyon wants her to just leave the whole thing alone. Why couldn't Haruhi unconciously create clues for herself to find?

[Truth-kun]

^

While your Kyonism theory is possible, we still cannot ignore the fact given to us by the story, especially in Episode 5 where Itsuki said something like Kyon is a perfect normal human being.

This might explain something about Haruhi's inconsistency on "what she wants" iff she is god.


The problem is, sometimes she does not believe that her attempt and ability will produce something especially when she thinks her wish is unreachable to begin with. I think this is the same reason as to why she failed to get a one on one pairing with Kyon back in episode 5 because back then, she believed that Kyon is either uninterested in her or out of her reach.

[FatPianoBoy]

^

While your Kyonism theory is possible, we still cannot ignore the fact given to us by the story, especially in Episode 5 where Itsuki said something like Kyon is a perfect normal human being.

True. That's where Haruhi comes in. 'Smokescreen' is a good term. He doesn't want to be special himself, but generating all that data would make him special. So, someone else has to generate it for him. And seriously, if you look from Itsuki's perspective, I doubt that thought would even cross your mind. And if it did, there'd be no way to prove it. Heck, I can't prove it - but I think the possibility is very high. And it fits with the story's love of deliberate confusion ;)

[Kazu-kun]

If Haruhi is his 'Smokescreen' why does he get all the attention? you said that he doesn't want to be special, but HE IS special: he's the love interest of the three main girls, he also has been called "the chosen one" (chosen by Haruhi), and he gets involved in all kind of life threatening situations (ie: he was almost killed by Ryouko). Kyon wanted to be the sidekick, and that's clearly not the role he gets to play here.
I think that what makes Kyon to be so important is not any kind of hidden power, but the fact that he is just a normal human.
Also that's a huge part of what makes this story to be so interesting.

[Noppapana]

I suppose every audience could know the feeling of Haruhi to Kyon. :)

She doesn‘t represent such a passion as ep 13 in ep 4 (she guesses the chairman of computer association just catchs a May Syndrome.) and doesn't feels any disappointment. Ordinarily she is an optimistic girl, isn't she?:heh:

i meant the episode 4 with the baseball match
She was dissapointed in Kyons performance as clean-up

but the question i am thinking about
What is Haruhi for Kyon ? a friend, a classmate , a clubmember, troublemaker ... after watching this ep
What I know, is that Kyon is a veyr important person for Haruhi

[FatPianoBoy]

If Haruhi is his 'Smokescreen' why does he get all the attention? you said that he doesn't want to be special, but HE IS special: he's the love interest of the three main s, he also has been called "the chosen one" (chosen by Haruhi), and he gets involved in all kind of life threatening situations (ie: he was almost killed by Ryouko). Kyon wanted to be the sidekick, and that's clearly not the role he gets to play here.

He gets all the attention he wants. He's got Mikuru, Nagato, and Haruhi practically beating down his bedroom door, which he loves. He does almost get ripped apart by Ryouko, but that was something that just happened on its own. Even though he's been chosen by Haruhi, she still does all the work. He's just there for support and to come in at the perfect time and save the day on occasion. That's what a sidekick does.

[Lost]

He does almost get ripped apart by Ryouko, but that was something that just happened on its own.
If Yuki is a creation of that data by Kyon (assuming he decides what gets created), then by extension, wouldn't Ryouko be his creation too?

[npal]

That doesn't actually prove anything, Ryouko was neutralized ("as I have foreseen"). She didn't succeed, as Kyon-kami cannot be defeated by his mere creations. Kyon is always protected, apparently. I mean, take whatever mythology you like, when lesser beings seek to harm higher deities (and they do for some reason), they get screwed. Kyon creating something that seeked to harm him is not rare in the deity realm.

Kyon is however unconscious of those processes, or he'd have stopped her himself. However Kyon did unconsciously summon Yuki, who defeated the infidel. Everything points to him being a god :p

[CrowKenobi]

If Haruhi is his 'Smokescreen' why does he get all the attention? you said that he doesn't want to be special, but HE IS special: he's the love interest of the three main girls, he also has been called "the chosen one" (chosen by Haruhi), and he gets involved in all kind of life threatening situations (ie: he was almost killed by Ryouko). Kyon wanted to be the sidekick, and that's clearly not the role he gets to play here.Perhaps it's because the best place to hide is in plain sight? :DHe gets all the attention he wants. He's got Mikuru, Nagato, and Haruhi practically beating down his bedroom door, which he loves. He does almost get ripped apart by Ryouko, but that was something that just happened on its own. Even though he's been chosen by Haruhi, she still does all the work. He's just there for support and to come in at the perfect time and save the day on occasion. That's what a sidekick does.Also, who would think that the plain, ordinary human being named Kyon is really calling all the shots? ;)

[Jacalee]

i meant the episode 4 with the baseball match
She was dissapointed in Kyons performance as clean-up

but the question i am thinking about
What is Haruhi for Kyon ? a friend, a classmate , a clubmember, troublemaker ... after watching this ep
What I know, is that Kyon is a veyr important person for Haruhi

I'm sorry.:( I make a BIG mistake and have been confused by the episode order...(Orz to death)

Maybe Haruhi is a troublemaker for Kyon in most occasions. However, Kyon seems to get use to Haruhi Troublemaking Machine and somehow trusts in her.

In my opinion, the reason why Kyon doesn't notice Haruhi's love comes down to the readability of the novel. It's more interesting when Kyon keeps a distance between Haruhi's well-known love to him. :heh:

Forgive my poor english...if it makes some troubles in reading. :heh:

[npal]

^ Of course he's used to Haruhi. She's his creation, too :p Kyonism is gaining ground :p

PLUS, she does EVERYTHING he desires without him being responsible for anything (makes Mikuru cosplay, cosplays herself, gets a pc by blackmailing the president, searches around for aliens and the like -whom Kyon SAID he gave up on, yeah right :p- and generally does everything to keep Kyon occupied without Kyon actively doing anything). Maybe Kyon created Haruhi who gave power to Koizumi and created Yuki, and Mikuru is some sort of moe lesser goddess :D

[Jacalee]

Who wants to complete the beliefs of Mikuruism, Yukiism and Itsukiism. I guess this job should be very funny, XD.

For example.
Mikuruism: Mikuru is just acting like a Moe loli and knows how to control the Main process...

[C.A.]

Haruhiism in the first place wasn't a belief that she's a god.

Haruhiism in the show itself probably has no meaning, but the word itself is one major reason why Haruhiism exists.

Extreme fanatism has since sprouted from people who read the novels and watched the show, or just watched the show itself. These fanatics call themselves Haruhists, who worship Haruhi and everything in the story, this is Haruhiism. But if Haruhiism the word wasn't in the show, such fanatism may never have started.

Haruhiism isn't fanmade, Haruhiism is official, its kyoani's creation. So every other religions for other characters are started by heretics lol

[npal]

:p

Bleh, Christianity may have also started by a bunch of heretic Jews :p But look at the crowds now :p

Glory to Kyon and Mikuru-sama :D

[FatPianoBoy]

Hey, hey now :P


I may not have started the idea, but I did create the term. Hmm... I suppose that makes me the founder of Kyonism? :heh:
Must get a sig made :D

[npal]

Yeah yeah, rest well, Jebus, let the High Priest do the talking :p

[Major Kerina]

I feel Haruhiism is about in line with Discordianism...particularly fun as tantamount. It even has a Goddess (Eris) at the center who has been known to cause more than a little havoc and be highly mischevious. Much has been written about it. The Illuminatus! Trilogy (which bears minor similarities to Haruhi - non-linear structure, pecular realities, etc) for instance. In the same way Evangelion borrows significantly from Christian ideas, and RahXephon from Mayan religion, I think it's entirely possible that Haruhi and its literary source (among many inspirations in sci-fi) takes some inspiration for the matriachial religions of Gnosticism and Discordianism as well possibly Oomoto. Which could be in sly references the "new pseudoscience religions" with Kyon's quote (although my hunch is he's talking more about something like Scientology, but uncertain on this). Oomoto is also very female based. Some of their Gods are males who become females (which kinda dovetails in my Kyon-as-alternate-universe-Haruhi idle theory but that's another matter). Women are the leaders in Oomoto. And also they recognize certain human beings as the same as Gods (the creator of Esperanto for one). Oomoto has more than a bit of an influence in Japan (it inspired Katamari Damacy, the games). So I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least a touch of it in this show.

[Noppapana]

^ Of course he's used to Haruhi. She's his creation, too :p Kyonism is gaining ground :p

PLUS, she does EVERYTHING he desires without him being responsible for anything (makes Mikuru cosplay, cosplays herself, gets a pc by blackmailing the president, searches around for aliens and the like -whom Kyon SAID he gave up on, yeah right :p- and generally does everything to keep Kyon occupied without Kyon actively doing anything). Maybe Kyon created Haruhi who gave power to Koizumi and created Yuki, and Mikuru is some sort of moe lesser goddess :D

then why is Koizumi created actually ? Kyon doenst really like him, he even hates his arrogant smile

[C.A.]

Yes lol, Kyon would never bring Itsuki into his life, as well as Taniguchi. Everytime when either of them appears in the novel, they would recieve a sarcastic remark or insult from Kyon.

If Kyon does has godly powers, his powers would work very differently from Haruhi.

I used to believe Kyon has special powers or so earlier on, but now I fully believe he's a normal human.

[Shiroth]

Music juring the giants appearence: The ultimate win!

[FatPianoBoy]

Yes lol, Kyon would never bring Itsuki into his life, as well as Taniguchi. Everytime when either of them appears in the novel, they would recieve a sarcastic remark or insult from Kyon.

Kyon just loves to complain to himself. In fact, it might be his favorite thing to do. Maybe he created them just so he'd have something to whine about :p
Itsuki's existence and personality are important for many reasons, and Kyon doesn't seem to see too much of Taniguchi anyway. Besides, I doubt Kyon's psyche micromanaged the creation of the world to that degree outside of the SOS団 ;)

[Vexx]

Music juring the giants appearence: The ultimate win!

Agreed.... kind of reminded me of some MMO music right before you're going to get ultra-splattered by the boss necromancer of the instance dungeon.

Made up for the kind of murky animation :)

[Kaioshin Sama]

Agreed.... kind of reminded me of some MMO music right before you're going to get ultra-splattered by the boss necromancer of the instance dungeon.

Made up for the kind of murky animation :)

I still say nothing beats an epic space battle in Legend Of The Galactic heroes set to a piece of classical music.

For the record the music played in that scene is known as Gregorian chant, it is also incredibly overused.

[C.A.]

There's no such thing as 'overused' for music, classical music has also been used in many battle scenes to make them sound more epic, as long as the music is brings out the atmosphere its good.

[Vexx]

Was it actually Gregorian chant? I've got a few albums of the stuff... sounded more like someone's riff of the chants used in during the Sith sequences in Star Wars (those were sung in Sanskrit, one of the oldest languages we have record of). I'll listen and see if I can ID it.

I'll agree that certain classical music is hard to beat for good space battle background (or at least orchestral music ala John Williams or Goldsmith). I have to say though you've got Legend of the Galactic Heroes on some serious pedestal. I don't have such wonderful memories of it. I should rummage around and relook at it before I say much more.

[Green²]

And here's another chain of reasoning why it's probably not deserved:

First step, why is "Kyon" the subject of discussion out of all the people in the world? Because he's the one we see talking to Haruhi. Second, why does she confide in him (This time and in general)? It's something about the type of person he is, and his personality. Third, what type of resonse do you get of of someone with his personality? Well, the dull "I see" kind.

In other words, if he were the type of person to give a more exuberant response, then he wouldn't be the type of person she'd be talking to about it and we wouldn't have seen the conversation to have this discussion. It's a variant of the Anthropic Prinicple :heh:

(Miraculously, this must be the only forum thread in existence where that phrase doesn't have to be explained!)
Kyon in probability being Schrodinger's cat's geiger counter. Kyon in the middle in this case, but with exception here that the data flows both ways through the middle, and the radioactive has active control as to whether the cat lives or dies, depending on what is told by the middle. But when the cat dies, there is no need of the middle, as the purpose of the middle has been completed. And the function then there dies, as also the cat no longer observes the radioactive through the use of the middle. But the purpose of for the function, now, and if to even recreate or change it should the later happen, is the ultimate question.

Though one hole in my theory I do admit, is that there is an chance of the middle killing the kitten, as the radioactive appears to be hot.

[Lost]

Very interesting ideas on Kyonism. A heresy has risen.. you might just make a convert out of me :heh: :p

^ I dont get it. Doesnt the geiger counter "make" the decision to kill the cat by triggering the breaking of the vial with hydrocyanic acid; based on the "data" (the single unit of radiation) that it recieves or does not receive?

[Green²]

^ I dont get it. Doesnt the geiger counter "make" the decision to kill the cat by triggering the breaking of the vial with hydrocyanic acid; based on the "data" (the single unit of radiation) that it recieves or does not receive?
Geiger counter I believe would be just the "read" to translate to another analog/digital system.

[FatPianoBoy]

Geiger counter I believe would be just the "read" to translate to another analog/digital system.

Yup. Geiger counters only detect various phenomena; they don't interact with it. Unless something's changed recently. Maybe the ghost hunters decided to go on the offensive :p

[Anh_Minh]

Geiger counter I believe would be just the "read" to translate to another analog/digital system.
You're trying to use macroscopic intuition on quantum mechanic phenomenons. The two do not mix.

[FatPianoBoy]

http://www.abhnation.com/ipbmb/uploads/post-82-1148691809.gif

:(

[Skane]

Not cute enough. Let's kill more catgirls. ;)

[C.A.]

http://www.abhnation.com/ipbmb/uploads/post-82-1148691809.gif

:(Not for this show, physics does apply to this show, just that Haruhi can bend the laws with her will.

[FatPianoBoy]

Not for this show, physics does apply to this show, just that Haruhi can bend the laws with her will.

One of the characters turns into a glowing red ball and flies away. QED.

[Major Kerina]

What's the sound that occurs at 19:46? It seems like a Shinto ritual sound but I don't know for sure. It's similar to a bell I think

[C.A.]

One of the characters turns into a glowing red ball and flies away. QED.And like what I said, Haruhi is the direct cause of that.

[Lost]

Geiger counter I believe would be just the "read" to translate to another analog/digital system.
Exactly, but because its that "read" that is the first point of contact for data interpretation to action; I'm saying it as good as "makes the decision". Without the Geiger, the Hammer wouldn't spring. But meh. Nvm.

Nooo~ NOT THE CAT GIRLS!! I'll stop now, I'll stop now.

[Truth-kun]

Think about the Cat Girls T_________T.

XD

[raphaël]

Ok, maybe I'm the only one, but I really loved this episode. I don't mind dialogues, on the contrary, and I didn't read the novels yet, so... A perfect shot for me. 10. It's not that I didn't enjoy ep.12, of course, but I mean, when Itsuki talks, you feel like he's giving real info about the real plot of the series. Plus, he's quite clear, isn't it? :cool:
I don't know why there is so many people who dislike him and his speeches (I loved ep.5 too for the same reason). I think I already said I'm not especially fond of heavy dialogues, but Haruhi is different, once again.
I find that idea of "closed space" so cool. Not peculiarly original, but really cool.

Actually, I just can't believe it's gonna be over in the next ep... :heh:
There's no way KyoAni wouldn't do a season 2. ^^

[lftwgr]

Little Haruhi minus Headband and Ribbons = Shana from Shakugan no Shana

Although the swing scene was melancholic (heh) it was also philosophic about how insignificant we all are in this world. Loved it.