Why Manga? [Archive] - AnimeSuki Forum

AG3

2003-11-06, 13:09

Anime tends to become very slow paced when they try to include everything a manga has. Especially long sequences of character conversations, thoughts, explanations etc. Instead of "choking" the anime episode with all this, they often drop it or rewrite the plot. This isn't always successful. You might have heard people say "the book was better" when speaking of movies? The same goes for anime and manga, the written one is most often considered better. Take Lord of the Rings, for instance. I'm sure most people who read the triology before the movies came prefer the book.

Sometimes large pieces of the plot is left out because they need to fit the anime into a specified number of episodes, like 12 or 26 episodes total.

Anyone read the manga for DNAngel and watched the anime? That was an extreme case of plot changing and dumbing down the story, and I form that opinion after reading only a few scanlated issues. When the Graphic Novels are released in April by Tokyopop, I'll finally get to see the story the way it was meant to be told.

1stStrike

2003-11-06, 13:25

ahh i get it. well, anyone recommend a start manga for me to download (unliscenced of course) and take a look at? maybe i'll find it interesting.

juri_miki

2003-11-06, 13:33

So, why is Manga so popular and what makes it better then watching an anime? I don't really know how anyone can get into things with no animation whatsoever and just plain images. But, that's me. So, tell me why you like Manga. I'm interested to hear why it's so popular.

I think that it's become a very sad day when peope can no longer use their imagination or read for the simple fact that the images aren't moving. Have we become such a tv addicted culture, or people, that unless it's moving we don't want anything to do with it? Or unless the information is presented to us right in our faces in a manner that we have become accumstomed to from the "boob tube" we can't accept it? Is this our ultimate demise? Have we become that superficial?

True that we live in ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) stricken society, but I guess it's still so hard to accept the consequences of it. There was a time not too long ago when people had patience. What has happened? I think we're doomed as a society. :sad:

As for your question...I like both. Many times, the manga can go deeper into something, or explore more story, contain more depth, and even be more beautiful than the anime, because they are just cheaper to make and the person who created, obviously is attached to the work and will in fact put all of their hard work and dedication into the art that they are creating. When it comes to manga, there is no concern of budget except when it comes to printing costs. It's also more than just about plain images, these are images juxtaposed together to create a story. The artist/creators use this story and juxtaposed images is their way of communicating to you, the reader. Whether you listen or not is up to you.

1stStrike

2003-11-06, 14:22

AG3

2003-11-06, 15:03

I don't really know how anyone can get into things with no animation whatsoever and just plain images

The same thing could be said for "plain text". I like reading both books and manga, so I would say that the above statement doesn't really give the impression that you're the reading type. You see how easily that statement could be misinterpreted into you disliking anything about reading, right?

Anyway, no need to take offense, as I'm sure it was a general remark, not an insult. :)

Nagare Ryouma

2003-11-06, 15:05

You know, I don't watch TV and haven't in a over a year. I do read books as well. But I have never been really into comics/manga. Not everybody likes all the same things. You can't say I have no imagination when I've read far more books then I can keep count. Wheel of Time, Lord of the Rings, Sword of Truth, the Shanarra series, etc.

Well, manga's are literally the origin of the animes. Most of the animes you see nowadays come from their orginal form, manga. And like Hunterx mentioned, most of the animes tend to leave out some stuff and will end up being slightly different from the manga itself. If you wanna try out some manga, well dunno if others will agreee with me but, I'll recommend Hajime No Ippo, Pretty Face, SlamDunk (can't remember if it's licensed or not) for now. Of course there's a lot more out there.....

1stStrike

2003-11-06, 15:11

any sort of sites that are kind of centralized for manga like animesuki is with anime? i guess i can try out a few.

and yes i guess i gave the wrong impression in my original post. i do love to read but i can remember reading comic books and they never really interested me. i assume manga is basically the same thing except in japanese. but i haven't read a comic in near 8 years so maybe i'll like them now.

snoopy

2003-11-06, 19:37

I can't stand American comic books... they just... suck. Of course, manga's different, for reasons listed above.

Anyway, check out http://www.manganews.net for unlicensed manga releases. And sites you'll want to go to are http://www.snoopycool.com (of course I list myself first... who the hell wouldn't?), http://www.toriyamaworld.com http://www.omanga.net, and http://www.mangascreener.com

All of those provide some, if not all, of their archives in direct downloads.

nojevo

2003-11-06, 20:50

Wll many people here gave valid answers to ure question and i'm pretty sure no one is going against it. But there are times that the anime version is better than the manga version. I'm kinda sure some manga are created after the animeshow (i think escaflowne is one of those and i heard that it sucks). As for which manga to start reading well, currently i'm reading black cat, tokko, hajime no ippo, prince of tennis, hunter x hunter...

if u want to comapre manga with anime, i think prince of tennis is a good example why most people prefer manga over anime. especially in the last few ep of pot.

Mr. Bushido

2003-11-06, 21:59

book is always better.

lot of manga has better art.
and unless u have those new portable media player that can hold .avi and other video files and play it on a small screen. you can carry mangas a lot easier.

Tzurial

2003-11-06, 22:07

I can't stand American comic books... they just... suck. Of course, manga's different, for reasons listed above.

I hope you arent including X-men in that generalization of yours! :eyebrow:

Nagare Ryouma

2003-11-06, 22:54

book is always better.
lot of manga has better art.

Not really....why? Simply coz we get to see our fav' manga on the screen in action. There are times when the anime can be better then the manga itself. Like Saint Seiya Hades OVA is a good example. The animes was somewhat better then the manga itself. But I do agree with you about about art; coz if you notice carefully, there are times in the later series of the anime where the characters art tend to be out of shape..... In manga, that kind of error doesn't occir frequently since it's done directly by the creator himself/herself.

I hope you arent including X-men in that generalization of yours! :eyebrow:

LOL Well, American comic's do have a bad reputation dude. When it comes to anime, no one beats the Japanese. However, there seems to be a huge change through out the years, and I hate to say but the art works for the comics has somewhat become acceptable.

Maveric

2003-11-06, 22:58

I enjoy anime very much, but it all comes down to cost. It costs $25 USD for one volume of anime on DVD in most cases. Outlaw Star is only 3 discs, and that box set costs $90 last time I saw it. But I can get 1 volume of manga for $10, and it will usually have more story elements in it than one volume of the anime did.

Then there's the issue of quality. Of the mangas I've read, (not many mind you, but still), the manga was [i]much[i/] better than the anime. Plus there is usually more to the story in the manga that was cut out of the anime (Full Metal Panic, Nausicaa, and Love Hina to name a few).

snoopy

2003-11-07, 03:03

I hope you arent including X-men in that generalization of yours! :eyebrow:

Actually, yes. Yes I am including X-Men in that. As well as Spiderman, Spawn, Superman, and all the other American comis that start with 'S'. I've simply never liked the art styles used in main stream comic books. The lines are too harsh, comedy sucks if it's in there at all, and I find no possible way to even remotely connect with any of the characters.

Besides, I can buy an imported manga for 6 bucks (way less if it's used), and an import DVD (or an American release DVD for that matter) costs me 25-80 dollars (the latter being the import... yeah, seriously), so of course, I'll pick the media that's best suited for my lifestyle. Also, there are 100's of mangas started and ended each year that are never animated for various reasons, and some of them are very much worth reading.

Dorfl

2003-11-07, 05:08

Yes, yes, it's true, my Ippo manga collection continues to grow and grow. One day I'll even catch up to snoopy and then BEWARE! ^_____^

Baba

2003-11-07, 11:04

I love anime, but before I ever liked it I already liked comics (french and beligum ones) and later on manga.
As has been previously stated, I think anime just doesn't deliver the exact same kinde of content as a manga. I t can give more in terms of emotions through the voices and images, it can be beautifull and can have many things a book or a manga will never have; but it will also miss many things. (just like film adaptation always miss something out of the original)
Manga, books or comics can afford longer story, more detailed descriptions of the world, the charachter and any detail the author think is important to his work. Therefeore I think I will always prefer written versions as most of the times they are just deeper and anyway, there are many things that you just can't find anywhere else.

Meroko

2003-11-07, 11:16

I actually started with anime, but lately I've spent more money on maga, simply coz I've been travelling a lot and I need to have a fix on the plane of the road trips. It's just a way to get "anime" away from home for me. :D

Zoya

2003-11-07, 16:15

I don't prefer one medium over another, but I treasure manga for a variety of reasons. I love the enhanced story and the detailed pictures (it just isn't financially feasible to reproduce that kind of detail on film.) I actually really enjoy reading a manga after watching it's anime because it is like getting the "whole" story.

Many anime based on manga are produced while the series is still running (and often quite early in the run of the manga to drum up sales.) Some anime work closely with the mangaka to ensure it is close to the print version, others veer wildly with the authors characters and plot. A good example of the former is Fruits Basket. It follows the manga pretty closely, but it leaves out TONS. Plus, that show ended without very good closure, based primarily on the first 4 volumes (with a bit from volume 5 and 6 and a real smidgin of info that was later released in volumes 7 and 8.) There are now 13 volumes released, with the ending not yet in sight.

For starter manga, it depends on the style you like, but I recommend http://www.toriyamaworld.com. They scanlate manga from various genre's. Also, check out http://www.manganews.net - they are basically like Animesuki but for manga. However, many of the things that get released are IRC only.

Zoya

NenMaster

2003-11-08, 07:32

i like how when a anime is finished, theres more story in the manga

Tboz

2003-11-08, 09:08

I think that it's become a very sad day when peope can no longer use their imagination or read for the simple fact that the images aren't moving. Have we become such a tv addicted culture, or people, that unless it's moving we don't want anything to do with it? Or unless the information is presented to us right in our faces in a manner that we have become accumstomed to from the "boob tube" we can't accept it? Is this our ultimate demise? Have we become that superficial?

True that we live in ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) stricken society, but I guess it's still so hard to accept the consequences of it. There was a time not too long ago when people had patience. What has happened? I think we're doomed as a society. :sad:

As for your question...I like both. Many times, the manga can go deeper into something, or explore more story, contain more depth, and even be more beautiful than the anime, because they are just cheaper to make and the person who created, obviously is attached to the work and will in fact put all of their hard work and dedication into the art that they are creating. When it comes to manga, there is no concern of budget except when it comes to printing costs. It's also more than just about plain images, these are images juxtaposed together to create a story. The artist/creators use this story and juxtaposed images is their way of communicating to you, the reader. Whether you listen or not is up to you. I am with juri_miki on the above... :)

The manga is usually more detailed, in-depth and longer than animes. Anime such as Berserk and Hajime no Ippo may have ended, but not the manga. Tho some are trying to delay the ending, some are still going strong and more interesting stories are being written as we now speak.

One think I don't like about anime, as mentioned is that the anime series usually do not follow the manga that closely. Even if they do and the mangaka is working closely with the producers, the essence and the true spirit of what the manga is trying to tell can sometimes be captured incorrectly still. Sometimes great work just cannot be reproduced and it may very well happen here.

In addition, since some anime are to be seen on TV, some parts will defintely have to be modified to be rated suitable for the audience. Not even a late night time slot can save it. And I believe that some of these parts can be very detrimental to the essence of the story... :mad:

And seriusly some of the quality of animation sucks... Dear Boys is a perfect example. It doesn't do justice to the manga. :frustrated:

Miracleman

2003-11-08, 14:44

Actually, yes. Yes I am including X-Men in that. As well as Spiderman, Spawn, Superman, and all the other American comis that start with 'S'. I've simply never liked the art styles used in main stream comic books. The lines are too harsh, comedy sucks if it's in there at all, and I find no possible way to even remotely connect with any of the characters.

Besides, I can buy an imported manga for 6 bucks (way less if it's used), and an import DVD (or an American release DVD for that matter) costs me 25-80 dollars (the latter being the import... yeah, seriously), so of course, I'll pick the media that's best suited for my lifestyle. Also, there are 100's of mangas started and ended each year that are never animated for various reasons, and some of them are very much worth reading.

Wow, Sandman starts with an S, and that's an American comic... it's also won the World Fantasy Award for Best Short Story (an honor that was, up until that point, reserved strictly for prose fiction). But alas, these are message boards, and ignorant generalization tends to reign supreme. Rock on, otaku. Rock on. :love:

Nagare Ryouma

2003-11-08, 15:29

Wow, Sandman starts with an S, and that's an American comic... it's also won the World Fantasy Award for Best Short Story (an honor that was, up until that point, reserved strictly for prose fiction). But alas, these are message boards, and ignorant generalization tends to reign supreme. Rock on, otaku. Rock on. :love:

What's Sandman??? And is the World Fantasy Award recognized world wide? Never heard of it, so I'm just asking.... excuse me for my ingnorance here....

ElvenPath

2003-11-08, 19:09

Manga cannot be compared to anime. Both are too different. You read a manga and watch anime. Each one has its strong points: anime gives you a stonger visual aspect while a manga gives a more detailed aspect of the story.

Miracleman

2003-11-08, 19:27

What's Sandman??? And is the World Fantasy Award recognized world wide? Never heard of it, so I'm just asking.... excuse me for my ingnorance here....

You can find Sandman graphic novels in any major American bookstore. It's hard to describe, if you're interested, do a Google search, as you will probably find a better synopsis than I can give.

And yes, the World Fantasy Award is indeed recognized worldwide.

Past winners include such scribes as Harlan Ellison, Stephen King, Clive Barker, and Michael Moorcock among others.

I love manga... and I also love American comic books. But hearing someone bash American comics as a whole would elicit the SAME response from me as a knock on all manga as a whole i.e. if I can keep ignorance from breeding more ignorance, I will.

Dorfl

2003-11-08, 19:52

Okay, for the record I read the first Sandman graphic novel - Preludes and Nocturnes - and I didn't like it at all. The fact that a book won an award doesn't mean everyone has to like it.
However, I do like some of the Marvel stuff, though, especially the Marvel UK stuff. Anyone ever read Death's Head II? Bad donkey! :D

Hast

2003-11-08, 21:14

Personally I think Sandman is one of the few US comics I like. But there are others, Preacher for instance. However I find that US comics are typically centered more on super hero fixations than Japanese manga. And personally I just prefer the more varied stories and ideas in Japanese manga.

On topic: the question of "why manga?" is quite like asking "why read books?". Pick up a couple of manga books of anime series you've liked and see what they have to offer. (Though watch out for "after the movie books" syndrome. There aren't that many, notable are Evangelion and Spirited Away.)

snoopy

2003-11-09, 01:14

... Spirited away doesn't have a manga... it was done as a stand-alone movie... and the 'manga' is just screen caps from said movie with text bubbles. I doubt very many people would be stupid enough to like that more than the movie =_=

And I simply said that I hate American comics. I'm not dissing them or anything. It's just that I can't stand them or the wierd subculture that they breed. I never said they were bad, or evil, or the spawn of satan, or anything else like that. The stories are all derivative (of the ones that I've bothered to skim through... trust me, I have no intention of ever doing that again), they claim it's original when they give someone a hood instead of a cape. Comics make me laugh they suck so much.

Nagare Ryouma

2003-11-09, 07:03

I love manga... and I also love American comic books. But hearing someone bash American comics as a whole would elicit the SAME response from me as a knock on all manga as a whole i.e. if I can keep ignorance from breeding more ignorance, I will.

Thx for the explanation Miracle-san.... I did check on Sandman, but sorry to say I don't seem to find it amusing at all. Everybody has there taste in things, so if you like them, hey that's cool with me. But you can't deny the fact that American comics 'overall' just suck big time dude. They have built that reputation for quite sometime now. Especially when compared with Japanese comics (manga). The art work is definately not in the Japanese's caliber, the story, plot and everything else just don't fit in. I'm not dissing them here, coz I understand it perfectly well. Over here at my place, we get the same old crap as well. Domestic comics just don't make it up here. We got some domestic comics which actually made it to the big screen (movie, locally), but over all you guy's over in the US should be glad that at least your comics (marvel especially) are known outside of your country; that's something to be proud about. So who gives a damn about the dissing huh? Besides, it's not like we get to hear people going around dissing Japanese manga's everyday. So you can keep ignorance breeding on more ignorance if you want, but the facts is all in front of them, that's that.

bluemist

2003-11-09, 09:06

I like both anime and manga, and for me they don't have to be compared too much. Manga has certain advantages to anime, and vice versa. So I'm here to discuss what's good about manga.

You can bring manga almost anywhere, and you can read manga almost anywhere. For anime you have to be rich (ooh, portable video players!) to do that. Moreover, manga has less censorship issues than anime, so almost any topic under the sun can be covered (care for some hardcore yuri/yaoi anyone? or plain brutal violence?). They have faster pacing in terms of plot, and a 200+ page manga can leave one exhausted especially when the story in it is jam-packed. But there is always the trusty 'bookmark' to save your progress while on the go. Manga is portable and can be carried in a bag, but be careful to handle it because it 'is only paper'. Manga requires no electricity (heh, no anime when blackout), just proper lignting conditions. It's more healthy on the eyes, and it improves your reading skills.

Asura

2003-11-10, 20:46

well, pretty much what you guys've said above are my reasons for choosing manga over anime.

It's a lot more practical to come into the bookstore, grab a manga you like, pay for it, walk out, have a seat anywhere you like, and start flipping through the pages. If you got them wet, at least you can still iron it dry, unlike short circuiting some $200 equipment..

Also, with a good manga, sometimes you can feel the presence of the mangaka..That feeling..is what I find missing from anime in general. Ah, sentimental me..

hunterx

2003-11-10, 23:10

snoopy

2003-11-10, 23:24

yeah, but mangas are made by one artist and a handful of assistants who do nothing but fill in black (really, the artist does everything else in most cases), and they come out at a rate of 18 pages per week. Even if they didn't have to work with color, I doubt you'll find very many american artists willing to work in conditions like that. And if you look at the credits you'll see one or two pencil artists, a couple of ink men, and then a company paid to color in the pages on each American comic volume, and they still don't make the same amount or depth in their stories as an average mangaka.

juri_miki

2003-11-11, 02:46

well I think you're stretching it when you say the drawings in manga is better than american comics. Most manga that I've read are in black and white, some of the drawings are good but most of them are nothing spectacular. Some comics like Amazing Spider Man, Authority and Heavy Metal have the drawings in full color and very good. But anyways I don't hate or love manga or anime. If the story is good I'll enjoy it regardless

I have to disagree GREATLY with that comment. I don't know about you, but since you are working with black and white, there is the challenge of having to make that image stronger to stand out more. Many manga artists have suceeded in doing just that. In the case of Marvel, for example, many a time the drawings and inking are very weak and all they have to rely on is color, which also sucks most of the time. One can easily put a well drawn manga, with not only sharp drawing, exceptional inking, and skillfully rendered screentones up against those poorly drawn superhero comic books and see the HUGE difference. I have seen many manga that contain very beautiful and mind blowing art. If you don't agree then try on your own to recreate those images and then you might understand a bit more.

As for American comics sucking in general, I have to say that is a bad generalization. That's just like the people who assume that anime is nothing more than sex and violence. To condemn those people and then to make overgeneralizations ourselves falls on the lines of being hypocritical. American comics are just as varied as anime/manga, it's just up to you to go and find them. If all you know is DC, Marvel, Image, and all of those companies, then I think one needs to go check out companies like Fantagraphics and Diamond Press and all of the other thousands of Independant comic book artists that exist out there.

Spyre

2003-11-11, 17:10

Seems to be a lot of American comics hate in here. While I agree most are centered around super heros, there are many many good ones that are not. (Though I myself enjoy certain super hero series).

Bone, Akiko, Cerberus would be the ones that I'd recommend off the top of my head.

Bone is an amazing fantasy tale, easily accesible for all ages. It could easily be a disney story with how well-rounded the characters are and the simple, clean, but gorgeous art. Not to mention the slowly growing epic storyline.

Akkiko: Cute stuff :)

Cerberus would probably be the most known indy comic out there. The 1st volume is about an aardvark barbarian. by volume 2 he becomes tangled up in the politics of a city, and cerberus becomes an amazingly funny political satire. By volume 3-4 it moves on to religion... I wont say much because it would spoil but if you like grand character based storylines and a good healthy dose of comedy you should definately pick up at least volumes 2-4. After that.. youre on your own (many say the series has been in a decline since then :( )

I love manga, and I currently read a lot more manga than American comics, however when people are picking on comics like this I just need to point out some good ones that could change opinions :)

As for intelligent super-hero style comics I'll point towards Watchmen, Astro City, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, and Marvels.

Snoopy: the american artists can generally put out 1 page a day, while the manga artists generally put out a lot more. I'd say the main difference is this: American artists spend a lot more time on the backgrounds and details of the panels, not to mention most attempt to make it more realistic. I'm not saying that manga artists are worse, but to say that just because they put out so much more that they are better ignores the differences in the styles and detail levels. Plus manga artists work like 15 hour days dont they?

snoopy

2003-11-12, 02:26

According to most interviews I've read, manga artists spend 3 or 4 days a week making the story and getting a rough outline done, then send that to the editors for the magazine they work for, then take the editor's comments and make the final draft over the course of the remaining 3 days. The assistants come for the last few days and fill in the whites and blacks, you know, the mind numbing stuff that anyone with half a braincell could do. During that time, the artist is busy inking his sketches and adding the screentones (or if he has color to do, then he's doing that... whether they use computers is based on preference, and most still use either colored pencils or watercolor). And yeah, it's an incredibly difficult lifestyle.

And if you've seen any of those 'the making of' books for American comics (I used to be really into the marvel art in middle school, so I've got like an entire library of them), you'll see that the artists, the one who draws from scratch on the blank illustration boards, actually just sketches things out. They'll provide the characters' bodies, facial expresions, and clothes minus details like patterns in the fabric, and the backgrounds are left fairly sparce. If there's a skull in there, they'll sketch it, leaving out the cracks and so forth. Then that's sent to a team of one or two 'ink technicians' who basically make it look good. Then that's sent to companies who specialize in digitizing those ink drafts, then cleaning them thoroughly and adding color to them (that's how it is now, at least. They used to do it by hand, of course).

Really comparing American comics to Japanese manga is fruitless, as each side has its advantages and disadvantages (although in my opinion, the only advantage comics have is color... but whatever). As it is all up to personal preference, I prefer to hate American comics as only someone who used to read them truly can (yeah... I read a lot of them, trying to find some I liked... bleh). It was like I was stuck in this room wearing a pig suit for the first 16 years of my life, and only when I was let loose did I realize how terrible my life had been.

LiQuid|J

2003-11-12, 05:16

Spyre

2003-11-12, 10:47

I don't mean to continue the semi-OT American comics discussion here, but I've got a question. A problem I've always had with American comics is that nearly every one of them in existence has something to do with some sort of superhero with big bulging muscles. There's not a whole lot of variety in the genres available. I'm wondering if any American comic fans could recommend an American comic that ISN'T about superheros. Maybe a drama or straight comedy series? Do genre like that even exist? I stopped reading comics in 6th grade because I was sick of all the Super-this and Mutant-that's. And that's a big reason I discovered manga, though there may have been advancements in the last 10 years. Anyone?
Almost all indy books are not super-hero based. the entire DC Vertigo line is non-super heros. the 3 books I talked about before are not about superheros either.

for drama you could look at Strangers In Paradise. I cant think of any pure comedy series off the top of my head, but if youre looking for some great books with comedy elements check out Cerberus and Bone that I mentioned in my above post.

And I agree that manga has a wider variety of genres available, but that mainly has to do with the audience. Here people have tried to do new intresting stuff but there just isnt the market to support comics like that.

Snoopy: those "making of" books are very inaccurate. The only time when someone else draws backgrounds is when the art is credited as "layouts" and "breakdowns". This used to be more common in the mid/late 90s than it is now. Normally the inker's job (and theres only 1) is to go over the penciler's and essentially "clean" it. I won't argue with your opinion that comics are "terrible" but I do disagree. Its a shame you couldnt find anything you liked. And there are many advantages that comics have over manga... for example you could argue that enduring characters who survive through many different creator's interpretations is amazing.

There are +'s and -'s to both genres, and I'm happy to say I enjoy both. :)

Tboz

2003-11-12, 10:54

The typical mangaka have to concern himself with the storytelling as well.

American comics usually have a writer and a artist to accomplish that, its like having two people do the work of one.

Some of the popular titles have to work extra hard in order to meet the deadline for the weeklies as well. While its common to find an American comic artist working on two or more titles at the same time.

The thing I don't like most about some of the titles is that they change the lineup frequently, while very part of a manga is the hard and soul of the creator.

That's not to say I condemn comics, I still love them for what they... :D

Miracleman

2003-11-12, 16:38

To Dorfl:
Do you judge an anime off of the first episode? If you do then I don't need to write anymore. I didn't see what the big hoopla was about Sandman was until the 2nd book... then the 3rd... then I was hooked.

And awards and critics influence people whether they like it or not. If you have deluded yourself into believing that they do not, then you're living in a dream world, bottom line. You'll all grow out of it, I'm sure. Puberty is just around the corner.

To: snoopy
And no, snoopy... you didn't "simply say you hated American comics". You showed your pure and complete ignorance to the forum with your follow-up comments (much love for that). What is your idea of a "diss" anyway?

"All manga and anime are the same. They're all derivative (snoopy... do you even know what this word means?) in that they have the same cast of characters, the doting schoolgirls, the cool popular guy, the loser trying to get into a good college, big robots etc. etc. No originality whatsoever... and what's with the art? It all looks EXACTLY THE SAME. The lines are too soft! Everyone has big eyes, big heads, big racks, and short skirts. Where's the originality?"

Was that a "diss"... in your humble estimation?

And please elaborate on some of your earlier comments. Lines are too harsh? I used to draw comics so I'll take that line as an ignorant fanboy's opinion, and leave it at that. If you would like to debate art, I'll be happy to comply.

"The stories are all derivative (of the ones that I've bothered to skim through... trust me, I have no intention of ever doing that again)."

I watched Spirited Away at Art Center, Pasadena and this line just reeked of the ignorance that they were spewing (though directed toward Japanese animation). They seem to be as close-minded as you, and thus hopeless.

Comparing the two is far from fruitless. That's the ultimate cop-out. This is a discussion board. Please don't make me elaborate.

You continue to judge American Comics as though you're some kind of expert on them (and this isn't speculation... re-read your earlier posts before you open your hole again). You've already stated that you've only "bothered to skim through them" recently and your middle school experiences are probably best left forgotten. Why I'm wasting time on you is beyond me. But I'm caught up here at work, and you've killed some time for me. Please reply, so that I have something to do on my next donut break.

For the more open-minded readers, I'll post a list of American Comics that I think are very original soon. I hope you can take a minute to check some of them out. :naughty:

uglypigs

2003-11-12, 17:26

neil gaiman often said that he didnt really have a feeling for sandman till the second book. thats when he really knew what was going on and when it and how it end.

the real diss i have about comics right now is the way its all going "anime", i use the term very loosely, drawn. i find highly irritating to say the least.

but there will always be good shit, and there will always be bad shit. this applies to all forms of medium. weither its manga or comics or anything else. i myself will not close my mind to anything, i feel that its a diservice to myself and to all the great artists and writers that are out here. be it kentarou miura, ashley wood, tsuhome nihei, alan moore and all the others out there.

miracleman i would love to see what you have to offer, and i think there should be another list for manga, stuff that people feel is real good, and progressing the medium forward that maybe people have not found out about yet.

snoopy

2003-11-13, 02:50

*sigh* Miracleman, are you going to be my new special friend?

I said that I hated them, and then gave reasons. If I hadn't given those reasons, I'm sure you would have called me some name reminiscent of someone who hates things without trying them first.

Now then, you must read nothing but shoujo and mecha manga, man... and perhaps I read (this is past tense, btw) nothing but Marvel and DC (and a few others, but it's been a while, so I forget the names), but from what I saw the lines were too harsh, ie, the only distinction in shadow was how much black the artist splattered across the page to give the characters their outlines. To me, that makes the lines too harsh. It's an opinion. The first rule of debate is to state all opinions as fact. Look it up, it's there.

Assuming that you've read things from nothing but Shounen Jump, you'll find many similarities from story to story and artist to artist. Those mangas were written to be popular with children. People with limited attention spans and a pension for explosions. Much like America as a whole (hence, comic books). If you were to look at work that was made for a mature audience, you would find other styles, stories, and backdrops. You would also discover how incredibly wrong you are.

And yes, I know what derivative means. I didn't graduate middle school for nothing (please note that I graduated from other things later, too... just that I think I probably learned that word in seventh grade english in one of those evil vocab quizes that bitch always gave us :p ). To me, when I say something is derivative, I mean that it takes aspects from one or more other stories and then adds maybe one extra element and claims to be original. An example sentence: "Ikkitousen is derivative of Tenjou Tenge." (Hah! Conceeded a point! Now what will you do? Hm?)

You asked a few times what my definition of 'diss' is (once was enough, you're wasting space...). Well, from where I come from, a 'diss' is kind of like taking a cheap shot while someone's down. For example, if I were to go and have sex with someone's girlfriend and then tell him how terrible she was in bed, it'd kinda be like a diss... but honestly, you caught me at a bad time for coming up with entertaining anecdotes, so please excuse the lack of imagination.

I accept the fact that there are things for which I am close minded. One, I will never eat tomatoes. Two, I would never go to Africa. Three, Mexico is best left in a gutter to die. And Four, I'll never ever tell anyone that American comic books are worth the paper they're printed on. It really is that simple, and I'm glad that you managed to read between the lines hard enough to understand that. You deserve a cookie.

Also, the proof of a weak argument is resorting to lowbrow mud slinging, which I do believe you have accomplished beautifully. While I may not be an expert in American comics, I am one in Japanese mangas. I believe that would make us representatives of completely opposite views, wouldn't it?

Damn, missed one. I said that it was fruitless because this debate is based entirely on opinion. And we're the only ones debating. People who are set in their views debating a topic will never yield anything, ever. In fact, if you reply to this post with anything even remotely immature, this thread will have turned into nothing but an online arguement.

Dorfl

2003-11-13, 04:24

Gee, miracleman, snoopy, you sure have a lot of time. If it was me, I would probably let it all slide. This is a discussion forum, true, but I don't really enjoy these long "You said, I said, you're dumb, I'm smart" arguments. Miracleman likes comics, snoopy doesn't, that doesn't make any of you bad or stupid people. Furthermore, the fact that someone dislikes something you like does not affect its intrinsic worth, in my opinion. If comics are good, they're good whether snoopy likes them or not. If manga is good, it's good whether miracleman likes them or not. It's not as if either of you is going to change the other's mind just by arguing about it: "Oh wow, I had this sudden epiphany, I finally see the light..." so why do you do it? :confused:

snoopy

2003-11-13, 10:07

Because I'm bored. And arguing over the internet is one of my simpler pleasures in life. You see, as long as you don't take it seriously, little quips like these have the possibility to be extremely entertaining for both the participant and the viewer. I get plagued with e-mails informing me of my own 'stupiditie' daily, and if I was truly offended by anything anyone tells me, then I would have vanished from the community years ago :p

FinFangFoom

2003-11-16, 04:03

Snoopy if you hate american comics based on Marvel and DC then to steal a quote from you

Assuming that you've read things from nothing but Shounen Jump, you'll find many similarities from story to story and artist to artist. Those mangas were written to be popular with children. People with limited attention spans and a pension for explosions. Much like America as a whole (hence, comic books). If you were to look at work that was made for a mature audience, you would find other styles, stories, and backdrops. You would also discover how incredibly wrong you are.

You can easily substitue "Shounen Jump" with the words "Marvel and DC" and you still have a mostly true sentence. Marvel and DC got there start back in the 60's and while they have gotten a bit darker over the years, they still are still basically the same Super-Powered hero's in spandex saving the universe every month. And the rights to each character is owned by the company and therefore you have 100 different interpitation of the same characters by different people and new writers all the time. But they still put out some great "Mature" comics (The movie ROAD TO PERDITION with Tom Hanks is based on a DC graphic novel). Or if you look at more indepenant comics you'll find much better, deeper stories that are completly controlled by the original author. And because most comics are monthly or bi-monthly, you'll find much deeper stories with artwork that blows away most manga (100 Bullets, Sandman, Preacher, The Maxx).

But for me the biggest difference is the artwork. I'll post a few examples. (I'm posting a few pages of licensed work, but only a small part of it. I've seen people do this before here without getting in trouble, but if i'm pushing the limits please let me know and i'll remove the links or a MOD can do it.)

The first is from one of my all time favorite series called the Maxx. VERY deep, and great artwork. I won't bother trying to explain the story but it's definatly worth checking out, in either comic form (35 issue's I believe) or the Animated Series from MTV's Liquid Television back in the 90's, which has the same art as the comic and Macho Man Randy Savage doing the voice for Maxx (He suprisingly does a really good job) .You can get the whole series on a 2-3 hour vhs tape on e-bay for like $5-10.

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Maxx%201.JPG

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Maxx%202.JPG

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Maxx%203.JPG

And this one is from Dream Wave's Transformers Mini-series. If you grew up on Transformers like I did then this is a Comic you've been dreaming of (Transformers where people can die). I don't think you'll find a cooler picture in a Manga (maybe on a cover but not inside). This leads to a short but sweet ass fight.

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Transformers%201.JPG

http://finfangfoom.free-host.com/Transformers%202.JPG

snoopy

2003-11-16, 09:21

Ok, I'll counter with Air Gear. Maybe using Oh!Great isn't fair... but he's my favorite artist, so I don't care. Please pardon my shitty scanning, as I didn't feel like taking any time to do these.

Two-page spread he obviously spent some time on (and I love this pic... it's just so utterly ridiculous): http://www.snoopycool.com/airgears1.jpg
Random page... comparitively average: http://www.snoopycool.com/airgears2.jpg
Another spread I threw in 'cause it has a tank :p: http://www.snoopycool.com/airgears3.jpg
And an example of color work (I scanned it in a bad resolution, so the color looks kinda grainy, that's all my bad, the original's smooth): http://www.snoopycool.com/airgears4.jpg

And just FYI, this is a weekly.

tsuki_desu

2003-11-16, 12:21

I like manga better because of the art. It's much better than anime and more detailed. Plus, it's the real story which most of the time I find better than the altered anime versions.

XooX

2003-11-17, 20:30

I'am realy not a expert on american comic and will use sweeping generalization to make my point, but isn't it what arguing on the net is all about?

The major problem with adult american comic is that they overcompensate for the "disney effect" by making dark gloomy and realistic looking comic. It's all ok if you like that style but I don't.

The fact that your telling a mature story doesn't mean you can't use a lighter drawing style, but in america it seem to (at least for all I know please show me one that isn't).

I also have a problem with the animal-personification theme thats a lot more present in american comic than in manga, since I prefer character driven story and it's tougher for me to realy get into the adventure of an hippopotamus.

Feel free to think of it as my shortcomming rather than that of the american comic book but you can't denny the ability of manga to cover a lot more style and genre then american comic.

FinFangFoom

2003-11-18, 22:16

First of all Snoopy - Yes those pictures you posted are awsome examples of good manga, but my point is'nt "Comics are better than Manga" rather I wanted to post a few examples of American Comics that might dispell some of your prejudise against them. Considering your only experiance with them are with series like X-men, Spider-Man ect. Those are really hit or miss, and if they are good it will only be for 3-6 issues while a really talented writer takes the helm.

If you want depth from a series you really need to try something different. I really like The Maxx, it has a good blend of humor (at least I find sorcerers of the mystic arts who need to use hand guns to be funny :D ), action, drama, and intreage (sorry for spelling :o ). Half the time your trying to figure out if the main character is really a hero or just as the rest of the city see's him, a crazy homeless guy (one minute he's on a perch being swarmed by a million Is, the next he's perched up on a mail-box on a crowded city sidewalk.)

Another one that is really popular now is 100 bullets, deffinatly not another super-hero with a cape comic. Cheak out the homepage (http://www.dccomics.com/features/100bullets/100bullets.html) for more on what thats about.

Personally I just like the American style better, I think the art is higher quality and has much more diversity. But I can understand why someone might feel different, manga is cool too. Just wanted to give you a different view.

XooX - Your right, you are making a major generalization. Yes some American comics are really dark, but that is only some of them. Click on the Transformers link in my post above. Those are serious comics, not like the original cartoon. But you will notice that they are bright and colorful. There are many others just like that.

As far as also have a problem with the animal-personification theme thats a lot more present in american comic than in manga, since I prefer character driven story and it's tougher for me to realy get into the adventure of an hippopotamus.
I really don't know what you are talking about. The only series that I'm aware of that could be similar to that is "Usagi Yojimbo" about a samari rabbit (very sweet). But beyond that most all american comics deal with humans or humanoids as main characters.

you can't denny the ability of manga to cover a lot more style and genre then american comic.

I very strongly disagree with that. Maybe Manga beats american comics in different types of genre, but no way it comes close with style. The reason for that is very simple. Japan is filled with Japanese people who use Japanese style (anime, big eyes ect) that is very consistant. There are deffinatly variations, but I think a good sign that the variation is limited is the fact that each style has a name (Shonin, Shoujo, ect. sorry for spelling), but most people on this board can spot manga style from a mile away becasue they all share similar traits. America is a big melting pot of different cultures, and that can be seen in the very wide variety of styles that are used now days including manga style (Usagi Yojmbo creator was born in Japan but raised in America so has both influances). The closest people can come to labeling the differences in American style is to refer to the name of the artist as the style (McFarlane style was big for a while) but thats pretty rare.

XooX

2003-11-19, 01:10

XooX - Your right, you are making a major generalization. Yes some American comics are really dark, but that is only some of them. Click on the Transformers link in my post above. Those are serious comics, not like the original cartoon. But you will notice that they are bright and colorful. There are many others just like that.

Yes transformer got a manga feel to it, but aren't they somewhat influence by japanese mecha manga?

As far as I really don't know what you are talking about. The only series that I'm aware of that could be similar to that is "Usagi Yojimbo" about a samari rabbit (very sweet). But beyond that most all american comics deal with humans or humanoids as main characters.

Personification (prosopopeia) is a figure of speech in which human qualities are attributed to an animal, object, or idea.

I was taking about cerebus, but transformer also enter the non-human personification case, also lots of american manga have a very loose definition of human like charater, bones and akiko comes from spyre post comes to mind. Manga also use Personification but rarely for main characters. That's a personal opinion though and realy doesn't mean comic are not good just that I don't realy get into the story.

I very strongly disagree with that. Maybe Manga beats american comics in different types of genre, but no way it comes close with style. The reason for that is very simple. Japan is filled with Japanese people who use Japanese style (anime, big eyes ect) that is very consistant. There are deffinatly variations, but I think a good sign that the variation is limited is the fact that each style has a name (Shonin, Shoujo, ect. sorry for spelling), but most people on this board can spot manga style from a mile away becasue they all share similar traits. America is a big melting pot of different cultures, and that can be seen in the very wide variety of styles that are used now days including manga style (Usagi Yojmbo creator was born in Japan but raised in America so has both influances). The closest people can come to labeling the differences in American style is to refer to the name of the artist as the style (McFarlane style was big for a while) but thats pretty rare.

Maybe style wasn't the word I should have use ,sorry not native english speaking, I was more talking about different kind of story, I don't see american comic making story about potery or competition knitting but I'am sure Japan have at least 1 or 2 10 volume manga about it ;P

FinFangFoom

2003-11-19, 06:11

Yes transformer got a manga feel to it, but aren't they somewhat influence by japanese mecha manga?
I didn't mean to compare it to manga, what I mean is that there are lots of American comics that are as colorful and bright as that, that still have mature themes. I only used that as an example because you could look at it yourself to see what I mean.

Personification (prosopopeia) is a figure of speech in which human qualities are attributed to an animal, object, or idea.
When I said I don't know what you mean by that, I meant that I wasnt aware of very many american comics that do that. I've heard of Cerebus but Iv'e never read it so I didn't think of that one. There could be quite a few more that do that but I'm not really very aware of them. Oh, I guess there's Flamming Carrot also that might be like that but I never gave it thought because that doesn't bother me. So maybe your right and I just havn't noticed.

Maybe style wasn't the word I should have use ,sorry not native english speaking, I was more talking about different kind of story, I don't see american comic making story about potery or competition knitting but I'am sure Japan have at least 1 or 2 10 volume manga about it ;P OK, that makes sense. You got me there, America is still a ways away from having that kind of diversity in genres (can't think of a better word either ;) ). Although with the rate that Manga is being licensed and imported to the States it may not be long before we start diversifying more also from the influance.

dexter

2003-11-19, 17:56

This is the only thing I can say about this topic :

Not all manga are turned into anime only the popular one's are turned into anime , because it cost more to produce anime than manga !!!

fenrihr

2003-11-19, 19:15

well on the topic.... i'd say i like manga more cause, like one said, portability, also i like seeing the art used... sometimes a manga won't have a good style that could be used in anime (see Samura, Blade of the Immortal) while i'm sure the story would be a fairly good one, the anime wouldn't be nearly as good as the manga in that case... also there are alot more titles and much more story. there are a few occasions where the anime is better than the manga, but it's rare.

hunterx

2003-11-19, 20:08

could it be that you are only familiar with superhero type american comics? The same flaw that makes americans think that japanese comics are just perverted and full of panty shots?

raikage

2003-11-19, 21:28

ON topic -
I prefer reading Manga because you can set your own pace and because you can fill in all these little holes yourself:

Think of someone running. How fast (you can animate the speed lines yourself)? How hard is he panting? Sweating? How about when he trips on a root and slams face-first into the ground? How hard was the hit? ALL of those are decided by whoever is reading the manga/comic book.

Pros for anime: Sound, ability to be viewed as a group experience, um...that's about all I can think of...

P.S. I'm definitely pro-American comics.
I can't stand American comic books... they just... suck. Of course, manga's different, for reasons listed above.
heh..everything above your first post related to manga vs ANIME, not manga vs American comics. But, of course, here's what I saw at first:

I can't stand American comic books... they just... suck. Of course, manga's different
and I thought (because I've heard this a lot before) Of course? Of course, what?!? Because they're Japanese, they are automatically far superior to their American equivalents? I heard that from SO many people that it put me off anime/manga for a LONG time.

And, for those of you that say you dabbled in American comics and got completely turned off:
I'm sorry that you all had bad experiences traumatic enough to turn you away from comics forever.

For those of you considering checking out American comics:
Find out what's good first. If I had started out anime by picking random stuff off the shelf or what seemed to be popular, what would I have watched first?
Gundam Wing
Hellsing
Dragonball Z
and
Initial D

and THOSE would have put me off anime for a really, really long time (don't want to say 'forever')

snoopy

2003-11-19, 21:41

I'm not going to bother rearguing my point to someone who obviously didn't read the first argument. But I will tell you that my 'reasons stated above' were the same regardless of whether they were talking about manga vs anime, or manga vs comics. Don't read stupidity into posts, man. Read what I say, and then assume it's what I meant. If you don't agree, that's one thing, but seriously.

raikage

2003-11-19, 22:29

Aaah, time for me to be a nitpicky a**hole.

What was stated above your first post:

The anime usually leaves out stuff they think is unnecessary or just don't fit into 30minute slots

...the written one is most often considered better. Take Lord of the Rings, for instance. I'm sure most people who read the triology before the movies came prefer the book.

Well, manga's are literally the origin of the animes.

So, how do these relate to comics?

Okay, enough a**holeness. But, please, PLEASE, don't call ALL comics that ever have been, currently are, or will ever be published trash. It's one thing to say the comics you've read personally are garbage. It's quite another to take an entire medium and decry it as not worth the paper it's printed on.

Yes, there are bad comics out there. There are enough bad comics to fill dumptrucks and..well..I'm kind of stuck for analogies at the moment. One could even go so far as to say the bad comic/good comic ratio discourages many people from the hobby, as it does get tiring trying to dig the gems out of the dirt.

But...

Assuming you're around my age (and I'm 21), are you saying that within the past eight years there has been nothing produced of value; that there is absolutely no way the comics community could have turned around and put anything of any social and/or artistic value on the shelves? That's a pretty big statement there, dude.

snoopy

2003-11-20, 00:48

*sigh* Look, my friend. I meant the statements of how manga are good, not the statements meant to directly... damnit, my mind's not working... compare anime and manga. I'm not going to take the trouble to read them all but I'm sure at least one listed the benefits of manga as a medium rather than as compared to anime... if they didn't, I don't know, maybe I was drunk, it was like a week ago, I don't really remember. But if you would please read everything else from that point on, you'd see that I'm a close-minded asshole who hates mexico, tomatoes, africa and american comic books. Good day to you, sir.

raikage

2003-11-20, 01:03

Sorry for being a jerk.
And I used to hate tomatoes, too. Still not a fan of raw tomatoes, or eggs in any way, shape, or form.

*tips hat, if I wore hats*
And a good day to you as well, kind sir.

Kurara

2003-11-20, 02:44

I don't think manga is better than anime in any way. They're just two different things.. But honestly, I prefer manga.

It's less "tiring" for me to read a manga than to watch an anime.. If I read a manga, I can read it at my own pace and I can deal with the emotions that are in the story at my own rythm.. I can't do this with anime. Also, I can read a manga before falling asleep while laying down on my bed. ...

I was always fascinated with comics and specially manga, because of the way manga artists use panels and symbolism. There's a lot of other details like that.. Since I grew up mainly on European comics and manga instead of American comics, I can't really say my opinion about them.. But I know that manga is different from all comics. It's not better, but there's just something special about manga that always fascinated me. I can't explain.

And like everyone says.. It's fun to imagine things. I guess this is why I prefer playing older video games...