View Full Version : Higurashi Episode 21 Discussion / Poll
Welcome to the discussion thread for Higurashi no Naku Koroni, Episode 21.
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Discuss your expectations of the episode if not aired.
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ADDITIONAL RULES FOR Higurashi no Naku Koroni
Make sure you read the English wikipedia article for Higurashi no Naku Koroni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higurashi_no_Naku_Koro_ni) before you ask questions!!!
Feel free to utilize the info on the TIPS section (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31732) as a complement to this series.
Feel free to share your theories and speculations. In fact, I encourage you to do so as this is what makes this series interesting.
I am designating Sushi-Y and Freakman to lead the discussion in the correct path without spoilers as they have played the game in advance. I put confidence in them that they will recognize a member has spilled the beans too far if any other members has begun to play the game.
SPOILERS FAR ADVANCED THAN THE CURRENT AIRED ANIME EPISODE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. THIS INCLUDES THOSE IN SPOILER TAGS!!!. People tend to peek at spoiler tags; especially when they do not know such tag is meant for the episode, only to find it spilling the beans too far advanced in the game storyline.
Hrm, I can't really say I'm happy with this episode. Mostly because they reused a lot of cels from episode 8 and they switched back to some of the weird animators from ep 19.
Also, the last scene of Wakanagashi-hen is still unsolved. Argh.
Still, there are a few vital clues:
So Satoko really believes Satoshi ran away and also Mion believes Satoshi was pardoned by Onibaba. Which means either he really did just run away or someone besides the Sonozakis or Hojous is behind it.
Sinless Idiot
2006-08-22, 15:45
Great great episode.
So great I have honestly nothing to say.
holy crap that was brutal..
*6 minutes into the episode*
Why do they have to keeping making Shion make all those weird faces? It was scary the first time, creepy the second time, but by the 99th time, it's just plain stupid.
*10 minutes into the episode*
For once they got the essence of a memorable scene right, and they had to ruin it with ablsolutely abysmal music running in the background. Will it kill to get one dramatic sad music in the anime!?
SATOKO~~~
*12 minutes in*
Omigod they skipped Shion's monologue during the confession scene.
Actually, no, they just skipped the confession scene outright.
マジかこれ
*20 minutes in*
...Whatever happened to Shion pretending to let Mion escape, and then taking out the taser AFTER Mion was already on the ladder, and all the crying and and pleading and...
*21 minutes in*
Just like before, they still forfeited the doll scene. It's not hard to portray Keiichi with the doll, wishing that he could give it to Mion and make things right the second time. I really don't know why they opted to not do it. The doll's significance was proven earlier in the episode too.
*22 minutes in*
WAIT.
このアニメ： 「生まれてきてごめんなさい」
A big pat on the back for Yukino Satsuki and Kanai Mika, their actings gave me something to praise in this episode.
(Although Satoko sounded a little too calm for someone being repeatly sta-AHH stop!)
Hrm...
I rewatched most of the relevant question arc episodes last week after seeing episode 20, and this episode went pretty much as I anticipated...although I imagine the description in the sound novel of the torture scene with Satoko must have been really brutal indeed.
I did have some theories (albeit sloppy ones) about how the final Watanagshi-hen scene would be explained, so I was rather disappointed that it wasn't at all. Was this originally explained in this arc in the sound novel, or was it left for a later answer arc like this one?
My own best thought was that Shion survived the fall with severe brain trauma and was mistaken for dead, leaving her "animated corpse" to still go after Keiichi one last time. Of course this still leaves open the questions about Takano's body (dead 24 hrs before the break-in), the contents and purpose of the mysterious syringe, and Satoshi's real whereabouts...but that sounds like all material for a later answer arc to reveal along with the many questions left from the other three arcs.
I wish that they spent some time reanimating the bad animation they reused rather than recycle it as-is...I have a bad feeling that the DVD release won't get the much needed do-over it deserves. That's all the more frustrating given that Onikakushi-hen seemed to be animated and directed so well in contrast to the rest of the series. Did they lose an animation director or a contract with a good subcontractor or something? With any luck, perhaps the final arc will at least be handled by whoever was responsible for getting Onikakushi-hen right...
Freakman
2006-08-23, 02:04
Just to wrap up a few things and because it kind of annoys me :
The last scene in Watanagashi was hallucination on Keiichi's part.
Both sisters are dead at the time it happens.
Wanderer
2006-08-23, 02:08
I've got mixed feelings about this episode.
The Satoko scene, as expected, was powerfull.
Not a single thing in the whole episode really surprised me. Well, that's not true I guess, I didn't expect that Shion would die in such a stupid way.
Wanderer
2006-08-23, 02:27
Just to wrap up a few things and because it kind of annoys me :
The last scene in Watanagashi was hallucination on Keiichi's part.
Both sisters are dead at the time it happens.
So, K1 is in a hospital bed and has not shown any signs of insanity thus far in this arc. He has just heard that both twins are dead. After Ooishi leaves, he suddenly hallucinates a zombie Mion, who kills him in his imagination. However, the only way this would actually kill him is shock. Thinking about what he has gone through so far, somehow I don't think shock would kill him.
Hey, if I lived in Hinamizawa and saw all of this crazyness, I wouldn't find a zombie all that hard to believe.
USCPharmacist
2006-08-23, 03:21
So Mion's gun killed Shion, poetic justice!!!!
BTW, did Mion lie to try to get away, or was she telling the true. If Mion was telling the truth and Onibaba did not lie, then Shion just destroy all her happiness by becoming a dumb fucking murderer. Or that instead of beating Oyashiro sama, she became an agent of him, an other poetic justice.
One last thing, the episode was not as good as the previous one because I just think it is too rush. Can anyone who played the game kindly fill in some of the gaps in the episode?
BTW, this arc is a little different from arc 2, I wonder if the difference are significant in that they give us clue on something important, or that the author just forgot.
I wish that they spent some time reanimating the bad animation they reused rather than recycle it as-is...I have a bad feeling that the DVD release won't get the much needed do-over it deserves. That's all the more frustrating given that Onikakushi-hen seemed to be animated and directed so well in contrast to the rest of the series. Did they lose an animation director or a contract with a good subcontractor or something? With any luck, perhaps the final arc will at least be handled by whoever was responsible for getting Onikakushi-hen right...
Got the DVD release and I can say that they did redo some of the animation (though, not much since this is Onikakushi-hen) so there's hope they fix up some inconsistencies in the other arcs. Also there's less "censoring", with blood being more prominent.
USCPharmacist
2006-08-23, 10:21
Does dvd has special like clue or funny outtake? Like Rena keep messing up the USODA line?
So Mion's gun killed Shion, poetic justice!!!!
I thought it was just that her clothes got caught on some nail/sharp object ;o
Edit: Actually... I can't tell if it's her gun or something else getting stuck... :heh:
Anyway, awesome epsiode. But Shion hate++ after Satoko scene and then the convo between Mion and Shion. :[ I was kinda getting tired of her weird reasoning for killing all those people.
Hello! I kill everyone because I'm convinced that they killed my precious Satoshi-kun and took him away from me even though I don't have solid evidence! :eyespin: :eyespin:
Also one of the things that I thought was interesting was what she said at the end. Something like... "gomen, kondo wa machigai nai yo kitto". *cough*Is she referring to Rika's powers...?*cough* Or is she really just regretting everything that she's done?
vvv I think the voices she was hearing was her own (telling people to die :s). It's guilt I guess? Maybe it finally clicked for her that just maybe the people she killed had nothing to do with Satoshi going away.
the ep was awesome^^
although it was rushed I still enjoyed it!
those weird faces are actually starting to annoy me rather than creeping me out!!
I kinda imagined Shion died when trying to run away from the footsteps and I wasn't that far from the truth. she started hearing Mion's voice and went to do what we already know and on her way back she...died in a stupid way I guess!!
LostBlue
2006-08-23, 11:07
*6 minutes into the episode*
Why do they have to keeping making Shion make all those weird faces? It was scary the first time, creepy the second time, but by the 99th time, it's just plain stupid.
*10 minutes into the episode*
For once they got the essence of a memorable scene right, and they had to ruin it with ablsolutely abysmal music running in the background. Will it kill to get one dramatic sad music in the anime!?
SATOKO~~~
*12 minutes in*
Omigod they skipped Shion's monologue during the confession scene.
Actually, no, they just skipped the confession scene outright.
マジかこれ
*20 minutes in*
...Whatever happened to Shion pretending to let Mion escape, and then taking out the taser AFTER Mion was already on the ladder, and all the crying and and pleading and...
*21 minutes in*
Just like before, they still forfeited the doll scene. It's not hard to portray Keiichi with the doll, wishing that he could give it to Mion and make things right the second time. I really don't know why they opted to not do it. The doll's significance was proven earlier in the episode too.
*22 minutes in*
WAIT.
このアニメ： 「生まれてきてごめんなさい」
A big pat on the back for Yukino Satsuki and Kanai Mika, their actings gave me something to praise in this episode.
(Although Satoko sounded a little too calm for someone being repeatly sta-AHH stop!)
I haven't seen the EP yet, but OMG WTF!
THEY SKIP THE MONOLOUGE?! NO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THEY SKIP THE DOLL SCENE TOO?!
I'm going to cry now. They just skip my favorite scene in this entire arc. Well, at least Sushi-Y is somewhat satisfied over the Satoko scene so I guess not all is lost.
I'm hoping they did the monologue during K1's torture and Mion's 1,000 gomenasai pleas during the Satoko incident (that was so f'd up, Shion).
So, the confession monologue... this what Shion was doing through out it.
She was BS'ing most of it. She was seeing how far she can BS before K1 and Rena will figure out that she wasn't Mion. Even that last phone call to K1 the night beforehand. She slip somethings here and there to get K1 to realize that she was Shion. Obviously, she was extremely disappointed that they couldn't figure out the "game" (points to under his avatar). After the Satoko scene, Shion wanted to be stopped, she wanted to be caught, before she went completely mad.
The Doll scene
(well, this is part of the epilogue - I believe in the actual text the names are switched, b/c at this time Shion believes she's Mion but to keep it simple I keeping the names)
After she kills Mion and is "saved" by the police, the police try questioning her. But Shion faked being mentally unstable... at first. But eventually she starts hearing Mion's voice, arguing with her constantly. Mion won't leave her alone. Mion feels it's not fair for her to live when she died. Mion is waiting for her to die. So Shion thought she'll get the better of her. While arguing with Mion she sneaks out of her apartment (thinking Mion didn't realize that she had left), gets into Onibaba's car and drives to K1 house. When she first sees K1 she forgets her anger. But when K1 comes out of the house with the doll in his hand, she explodes. Mion is so unfair. K1 is still thinking of Mion. What does Shion have? Nothing. Shion goes back to her demented state and stabs K1 as she originally planned. Then she screams "I made it in time (before Mion killed me). I got my revenge (on Mion). I killed everyone I wanted (take that Mion!)" - the monologue there was something along those lines.
*sigh* :(
USCPharmacist
2006-08-23, 11:24
I haven't seen the EP yet, but OMG WTF!
THEY SKIP THE MONOLOUGE?! NO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THEY SKIP THE DOLL SCENE TOO?!
I'm going to cry now. They just skip my favorite scene in this entire arc. Well, at least Sushi-Y is somewhat satisfied over the Satoko scene so I guess not all is lost.
I'm hoping they did the monologue during K1's torture and Mion's 1,000 gomenasai pleas during the Satoko incident (that was so f'd up, Shion).
So, the confession monologue... this what Shion was doing through out it.
She was BS'ing most of it. She was seeing how far she can BS before K1 and Rena will figure out that she wasn't Mion. Even that last phone call to K1 the night beforehand. She slip somethings here and there to get K1 to realize that she was Shion. Obviously, she was extremely disappointed that they couldn't figure out the "game" (points to under his avatar). After the Satoko scene, Shion wanted to be stopped, she wanted to be caught, before she went completely mad.
The Doll scene
(well, this is part of the epilogue - I believe in the actual text the names are switched, b/c at this time Shion believes she's Mion but to keep it simple I keeping the names)
After she kills Mion and is "saved" by the police, the police try questioning her. But Shion faked being mentally unstable... at first. But eventually she starts hearing Mion's voice, arguing with her constantly. Mion won't leave her alone. Mion feels it's not fair for her to live when she died. Mion is waiting for her to die. So Shion thought she'll get the better of her. While arguing with Mion she sneaks out of her apartment (thinking Mion didn't realize that she had left), gets into Onibaba's car and drives to K1 house. When she first sees K1 she forgets her anger. But when K1 comes out of the house with the doll in his hand, she explodes. Mion is so unfair. K1 is still thinking of Mion. What does Shion have? Nothing. Shion goes back to her demented state and stabs K1 as she originally planned. Then she screams "I made it in time (before Mion killed me). I got my revenge (on Mion). I killed everyone I wanted (take that Mion!)" - the monologue there was something along those lines.
*sigh* :(
Wow that's make much more sense!!!
Oh Shit!! I just realize the Moon people took Satoshi!!! Oh the horrible Moon people, why why you guys did that!!!
BakaOnna
2006-08-23, 11:50
I haven't seen the EP yet, but OMG WTF!
THEY SKIP THE MONOLOUGE?! NO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THEY SKIP THE DOLL SCENE TOO?!
I'm going to cry now. They just skip my favorite scene in this entire arc. Well, at least Sushi-Y is somewhat satisfied over the Satoko scene so I guess not all is lost.
I'm hoping they did the monologue during K1's torture and Mion's 1,000 gomenasai pleas during the Satoko incident (that was so f'd up, Shion).
So, the confession monologue... this what Shion was doing through out it.
She was BS'ing most of it. She was seeing how far she can BS before K1 and Rena will figure out that she wasn't Mion. Even that last phone call to K1 the night beforehand. She slip somethings here and there to get K1 to realize that she was Shion. Obviously, she was extremely disappointed that they couldn't figure out the "game" (points to under his avatar). After the Satoko scene, Shion wanted to be stopped, she wanted to be caught, before she went completely mad.
The Doll scene
(well, this is part of the epilogue - I believe in the actual text the names are switched, b/c at this time Shion believes she's Mion but to keep it simple I keeping the names)
After she kills Mion and is "saved" by the police, the police try questioning her. But Shion faked being mentally unstable... at first. But eventually she starts hearing Mion's voice, arguing with her constantly. Mion won't leave her alone. Mion feels it's not fair for her to live when she died. Mion is waiting for her to die. So Shion thought she'll get the better of her. While arguing with Mion she sneaks out of her apartment (thinking Mion didn't realize that she had left), gets into Onibaba's car and drives to K1 house. When she first sees K1 she forgets her anger. But when K1 comes out of the house with the doll in his hand, she explodes. Mion is so unfair. K1 is still thinking of Mion. What does Shion have? Nothing. Shion goes back to her demented state and stabs K1 as she originally planned. Then she screams "I made it in time (before Mion killed me). I got my revenge (on Mion). I killed everyone I wanted (take that Mion!)" - the monologue there was something along those lines.
*sigh* :(
I haven't watched the raw yet, but they skipped the doll scene in episode 8, so I don't think it would've made a lot of sense to add the doll scene in the answer arc when it wasn't even in the question arc. Or maybe I'm just missing something?:confused:
Mediocre. I officially proclaim that Higurashi be remade by Kyo-Ani.
Someone should set up a site dedicated for Higurashi remake by Kyo-Ani. ww
If otakus can sway Kyo-Ani to do a Kanon remake, then it's possible...maybe.
I cannot fathom why they left out the monologue, more so the other main twist of Shion/Mion switching.
For at least once, do the epilogue scenes rather than ending it abruptly. Where's Shion's dream? Or the heart-wrenching note of "I'm sorry for ever been born?" An addition of that with dai's you would made a better closure on Meakashi.
Much like Frederica's poem for Tsumihoroboshi (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=655178&postcount=13), those over-used facial contortions are:
1st time, interesting
2nd time, it gets tiring
3rd time, it's just sick
and by the nth time, it loses its value to become a comical.
The fateful doll scene at the end. They messed that up in Watanagashi, they still messed it up in Meakashi.
Five more episodes to go; how they can fit all of Tsumihoroboshi, I don't know. But if they screw up the ----------------, I will be very disappointed.
USCPharmacist
2006-08-23, 14:08
Maybe if they have some American budget they can make it good :)
Anyway, Deen fuck up F/SN already, and it's about to fuck up Simoun, so I don't hold too much hope for Higurashi.
I'm going to cry now. They just skip my favorite scene in this entire arc. Well, at least Sushi-Y is somewhat satisfied over the Satoko scene so I guess not all is lost.
Who said I'm satisfied?
The one line I wanted to hear the most from Satoko during that scene was her final line,
「さぁいくらでも試してみろ！！ 私は泣かない、涙も見せない！！！ 北条沙都子がどれほどの強さを持つか 、試してみろおおぉおおぉお！！！」
Nope, it wasn't there. I fell in love with her with that line, and they cut it.
More importantly, that stupid ambient music really pissed me off. Way to ruin your own dramatic scene, Deen.
Mion's 1000 gomennasai was nice though. *sigh*
The most famous line in the entire Meakashi-hen,
「生まれてきてごめんなさい」
Not there. I can forgive Deen for everything else in the episode, but not this one. The final scene was the one scene where Shion finally got to admit and make up for the sins she commited, and they ended it with nothing but ONE line and a splat.
Shion slipped from the balcany, and fell down onto a concrete roof a few floors below, and was mortally wounded. That's when her mind finally became clear, and she began talking and apologizing to Satoshi-kun for everything she did in this story, while reminiscing and regretting those happy days that she lost. In the end, Shion ended her own life by crawling to the edge of the roof, and tossed herself off, while saying that famous line: "I'm sorry for being born".
This anime is completely non-gamer oriented. I looked around for comments on the net and found pretty much a negative linear relationship between the amount of knowledge you have on the game and how much you enjoy the anime: if you don't know anything about the game, you can enjoy the anime to it's fullest. If you are a gamer who has played through the whole game, then this anime is mediocre at best, unbearable to watch at worst.
At the rate they're cutting out famous lines and scenes, I'm seriously concerned for Tsumihoroboshi-hen's finale now. If they dare to cut out Rika's line in my signature, I'll explode.
Rasuberi
2006-08-23, 15:54
Someone should set up a site dedicated for Higurashi remake by Kyo-Ani. ww
賛成!:mad: KyoAniのほうはやっぱり見たい事なのです。
If only they would listen to our plea's, that is. :(
Ahh, other than knowing how good this episode should have been, and hearing about all the things left out... it was a good episode, other than animation inconsistancies. And on that case, I also saw the first DVD, and am happy to see that they did alter some of the animation... they have more work ahead of them though.
I wish they left things in that would have kept Shion somewhat loveable... *was looking forward to "Sorry for being born"* But no. >__>; TIPS, onegaishimasu?
And I will continue wishing for the day I can order the sound novel's...
aliensporebomb
2006-08-23, 16:21
I'm pretty sure that Satoshi isn't "demoned away". Theory?
I have a guess regarding the fact that he got out of town quick
and is just fine. Like another poster said "probably has a pregnant
wife too." He's possibly staying away and biding his time and might
even return someday.
But, Shion, if she ever really wanted a relationship with this guy
she did everything wrong:
-Brutalize Satoko - real nice way to endear you to her protector, chump-girl.
-Become a psychotic murderer for no real reason - it won't bring Satoshi
back and he certainly won't have anything to do with a psycho murderer
if he does.
I think I've gone on long enough. Why did she grow so attached to him
in the first place? She had at most a few weeks of contact with the guy
and he certainly was a friend at best. Irrational. Years of abuse by
the Sonizaki family probably inspired her mental issues but it is almost
impossible to say.
Sigh.
Enough for now but I'll have more to say later. It's pretty obvious
the animation studio made some unpopular decisions regarding
this show - it seems that answers may not be forthcoming with
regard to certain situations. The most grievous of all: omissions
that serve to further confuse the already confusing plot, key lines
omitted, inappropriate music for certain spots.
Has anyone heard what the Japanese Otaku have said about this
show yet? If the gamers think the show stinks how will they have
a hope of attracting new players when the show is spotty and
confusing? I like the show, I just don't like it when shortcuts are
taken at the expense of quality.
Wow after reading the explantions that some of you gamers have posted I'm really saddened by how they ended this, although it's good to know the game had a better ending in mind.
imac2much
2006-08-23, 16:55
Who said I'm satisfied?
The one line I wanted to hear the most from Satoko during that scene was her final line,
「さぁいくらでも試してみろ！！ 私は泣かない、涙も見せない！！！ 北条沙都子がどれほどの強さを持つか 、試してみろおおぉおおぉお！！！」
Nope, it wasn't there. I fell in love with her with that line, and they cut it.
More importantly, that stupid ambient music really pissed me off. Way to ruin your own dramatic scene, Deen.
Mion's 1000 gomennasai was nice though. *sigh*
I'm really saddened that so much was left out. I really like the anime since I haven't played the game, but when I read the forums here I realize how much I'm actually missing out. Sushi-Y, can you translate that line in your spoiler post?
Also is there any other place I can learn more about what I'm missing, the important omissions and stuff (like I know they left out the history regarding Sonozaki family after WW2, some meat packing incident or something, etc... where do I actually get to read about this stuff? Or is it impossible for someone who can't read Japanese?)
USCPharmacist
2006-08-23, 17:03
Sushi-Y going Asplode? oh my gawd!!! :)
BakaOnna
2006-08-23, 18:26
I haven't seen the EP yet, but OMG WTF!
THEY SKIP THE MONOLOUGE?! NO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THEY SKIP THE DOLL SCENE TOO?!
I'm going to cry now. They just skip my favorite scene in this entire arc. Well, at least Sushi-Y is somewhat satisfied over the Satoko scene so I guess not all is lost.
I'm hoping they did the monologue during K1's torture and Mion's 1,000 gomenasai pleas during the Satoko incident (that was so f'd up, Shion).
So, the confession monologue... this what Shion was doing through out it.
She was BS'ing most of it. She was seeing how far she can BS before K1 and Rena will figure out that she wasn't Mion. Even that last phone call to K1 the night beforehand. She slip somethings here and there to get K1 to realize that she was Shion. Obviously, she was extremely disappointed that they couldn't figure out the "game" (points to under his avatar). After the Satoko scene, Shion wanted to be stopped, she wanted to be caught, before she went completely mad.
The Doll scene
(well, this is part of the epilogue - I believe in the actual text the names are switched, b/c at this time Shion believes she's Mion but to keep it simple I keeping the names)
After she kills Mion and is "saved" by the police, the police try questioning her. But Shion faked being mentally unstable... at first. But eventually she starts hearing Mion's voice, arguing with her constantly. Mion won't leave her alone. Mion feels it's not fair for her to live when she died. Mion is waiting for her to die. So Shion thought she'll get the better of her. While arguing with Mion she sneaks out of her apartment (thinking Mion didn't realize that she had left), gets into Onibaba's car and drives to K1 house. When she first sees K1 she forgets her anger. But when K1 comes out of the house with the doll in his hand, she explodes. Mion is so unfair. K1 is still thinking of Mion. What does Shion have? Nothing. Shion goes back to her demented state and stabs K1 as she originally planned. Then she screams "I made it in time (before Mion killed me). I got my revenge (on Mion). I killed everyone I wanted (take that Mion!)" - the monologue there was something along those lines.
*sigh* :(
Oooooh, so that's the doll scene. Then it does make more sense, because I was wondering why the doll caused Shion's inner demon to awake. Now I get it. I remembered back in ep. 8 of Watanagashi-hen, Sushi-Y mentioned it and posted pics of it from the manga. It was so sad. But I can sort of see why Deen took out the doll scene. If they wanted to do the doll scene in this arc, they would've had to add it in Watanagashi-hen, or it won't seem parallel to the non-gamer watchers.
Anyway, this is the second episode in this series where I couldn't wait for the sub. I gave it an 8, even though it's more of an 7.5. The weird face animation is really getting annoying now.
But reading all these missing things, Deen screwed up big time. :( I think the main problem with this series is the length. Reading all these things, if the studio did add all this like the monologues, doll scene, etc., this series would end up being 52 episodes.
Has anyone heard what the Japanese Otaku have said about this
show yet? If the gamers think the show stinks how will they have
a hope of attracting new players when the show is spotty and
confusing? I like the show, I just don't like it when shortcuts are
taken at the expense of quality.
non-game playing otaku: "I don't get it"
game playing otaku: "Play the game"
non-game playing otaku: "OK"
[after playing the game]
formerly non-game playing otaku: "Now I get it! The game is 100x better!"
Repeat again.
If you think I'm kidding, no I'm not. This how the cycle works here. If you don't get it but still are interested, people will just go to their nearest doujin store and pick up a copy. Added to the fact that each of the copies are rather cheap (chump money), that's how the fandom grows.
Also is there any other place I can learn more about what I'm missing, the important omissions and stuff (like I know they left out the history regarding Sonozaki family after WW2, some meat packing incident or something, etc... where do I actually get to read about this stuff? Or is it impossible for someone who can't read Japanese?)
Read the spoiler: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=572931&postcount=81
Basically, majority of the babblings there are all conjured up by Shion so it sounds feasible.
I'm really saddened that so much was left out. I really like the anime since I haven't played the game, but when I read the forums here I realize how much I'm actually missing out. Sushi-Y, can you translate that line in your spoiler post?
「さぁいくらでも試してみろ！！ 私は泣かない、涙も見せない！！！ 北条沙都子がどれほどの 強さを持つか 、試してみろおおぉおおぉお！！！」
"Here, try all you want!! I won't cry, nor will I show any tears!!! You want to see just how strong Houjou Satoko is? Go ahead and tryyyy!!!"
The line was pretty much the final straw that broke Satoko free from the image of being a "crybaby". When she finally died, the gamers were given the impression that Satoko has went off to reunite with Satoshi because she has proven herself worthy.
Shion, on the other hand, was left behind, and will never be able to meet Satoshi again because she completely failed in keeping the one favor Satoshi asked of her before he disappeared: to take care of Satoko for him.
non-game playing otaku: "I don't get it"
game playing otaku: "Play the game"
non-game playing otaku: "OK"
[after playing the game]
formerly non-game playing otaku: "Now I get it! The game is 100x better!"
Repeat again.
If you think I'm kidding, no I'm not. This how the cycle works here. If you don't get it but still are interested, people will just go to their nearest doujin store and pick up a copy. Added to the fact that each of the copies are rather cheap (chump money), that's how the fandom grows.
It makes sense.
On the other hand, non-gamers don't have to play the game, and the anime will still be perfectly enjoyable for them.
The only losers here are the people who already played the game.
theacefrehley
2006-08-23, 21:21
The only losers here are the people who already played the game.
I don't think so.
Even though I'm enjoying a lot the anime I feel kind of depressed when I know that so much is being left out...
But hey...
Don't hold back in telling it to us. I, particulary, appreciate it a lot! At least we get to know a little little bit more...
I prefer being sad but aware than a happy ignorant... :(
sagematt
2006-08-23, 22:58
Mediocre. I officially proclaim that Higurashi be remade by Kyo-Ani.
Someone should set up a site dedicated for Higurashi remake by Kyo-Ani. ww
If otakus can sway Kyo-Ani to do a Kanon remake, then it's possible...maybe.
Remake Kai at the very least!
This is 99.999999% a lost cause, but a man can dream... :sad:
For at least once, do the epilogue scenes rather than ending it abruptly. Where's Shion's dream? Or the heart-wrenching note of "I'm sorry for ever been born?" An addition of that with dai's you would made a better closure on Meakashi.
Right. After getting KAI soundtrack and hearing all those beautiful songs, that generic Kenji Kawai OST doesn't even compare to it (except for main theme, that's a pretty good tune, but I digress). We should also add that, for Kyo-Ani remake, every last episode of every chapter has a different ending tune (You being the one for Meakashi, of course ^^).
Much like Frederica's poem for Tsumihoroboshi (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=655178&postcount=13), those over-used facial contortions are:
1st time, interesting
2nd time, it gets tiring
3rd time, it's just sick
and by the nth time, it loses its value to become a comical.
I was also very ticked off by it. This episode in particular had me already tired of those MUTHAFUCKIN' emo facial contortions on my MUTHAFUCKIN' Meakashi-hen!.
(Sorry, I just had to do it :heh:)
Five more episodes to go; how they can fit all of Tsumihoroboshi, I don't know.
I got very angry after I watched episode 20 and I was like WTF? This arc still hasn't ended? Are they even going to animate Tsumihoroshi at all?. I guess we can only pray to Oyashiro-sama :(
But if they screw up the ----------------, I will be very disappointed.
Deen, if you don't redeem yourself with that, I will never ever watch any other anime you make. And I will despise you to the very end of my existence.
sagematt
2006-08-23, 23:09
Hey, a quick announcement to Sushi-Y, kj1980, Rasuberi, and any other members who have had the bliss to play the visual novels:
Guys, please, not everyone on this forum can read japanese. I get very confused when you post a commentary or quote something in japanese without translating it for us. We are loyal fans to the series and, if it weren't because of the language barrier, we would all be commenting with you about it. But sometimes you just seem like a membership-only club (which only requisite is knowing japanese, but you all know that that is not an easy task) :sad:
I beg of you, fix that aspect (attaching a translation to the quotes, at the very least, that's not too much to ask). I'm counting on you guys ^^
I think that's because when they post something in japanese, it would otherwise be a spoiler, and it's something they're saying to the other game players. Not meant for us. >.>
sagematt
2006-08-23, 23:39
Not always. Meakashi-hen ended, what's there to spoil? Whatever Deen left out is not a spoiler.
Actually, something similar happened on another forum I frequent, when Fate/Stay Night ended.
sage: Dude, I can't believe Deen left out that much of the story. And why the fsck did they animate a messed-up Fate instead of UBW?!?! Even the 2nd opening spoiled UBW and Heaven's Feel!
Member 1: Oh well, can you now tell us what was left out?
sage: Wouldn't that be spoiling it all?
Member 2: Not really. The show ended. They probably will not show anymore of it. What's there to spoil?
sage: ...True dat.
BakaOnna
2006-08-23, 23:48
Not always. Meakashi-hen ended, what's there to spoil? Whatever Deen left out is not a spoiler.
From what I've read and seen of ep. 21 already, lotsa stuff. :mad: Even though I think the anime is fine on its own, it's very sad how much they have to leave out.
Altima of the Gates
2006-08-23, 23:53
Okay. lets try to turn this away from the screams of agony from the game players/people who have talked with game players/people who have read spoilers/blah blah blah.
I seem to hear the same thing almost everytime we get a new ero-game/sound novel/doujin game to anime or novel to anime.
"Let Kyoto Animation do a remake" (Geez, people must think they have Mida's golden touch or something. Why not J.C. Staff?) :heh:
" 'X' scene wasn't here, let the infidels burn for this atrocity!!" :heh:
Listen. You will NEVER have the same experience you had when you first saw a scene, even if they remake it perfectly.
I've never played the game, and i'm having a lot of fun figuring things out, i may be a bit confuesd, but not enough for my enjoyment of the show ro be lessened.
Sorry if I was sounding rude or off-base, but this heckling is just too harsh sometimes.
I was browsing around and found these posts and felt the need to post this.
Rasuberi
2006-08-23, 23:57
Ahaha, me? Read the sound novels? I wish. Everyone should know by now that I'm often saying things like "I am now waiting for the day I can read the novel's even more" or something. I'm not too good with kanji but... once I can get my hands on the game... things would be set.
And whenever I type in Japanese for instance, it's something silly... that I just felt I wanted to say in Japanese. And I'm always looking for reason's to type in Japanese, like how my friend wants me to help this new exchange student at her school named Chiaki who isn't very good at english, but I'm getting pretty off topic now so...
I'll try to translate anything I say in Japanese now, in any case. I just easily forget that's all, but if it bothers other's, I'll try.
sagematt
2006-08-24, 00:02
From what I've read and seen of ep. 21 already, lotsa stuff. :mad: Even though I think the anime is fine on its own, it's very sad how much they have to leave out.
I think I didn't explain myself. It is a spoiler if it is something that you shouldn't know at that time, but if the arc has ended, whatever they left out should not be considered as a spoiler, since we are supposed to know it, it would be something that completes the story.
Example:
Spoiler:
Rena_fan_337: Hey, I started watching Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, and so far I like it. I just watched episode 2.
sagematt: K1 kills Rena and Mion with Satoshi's baseball bat and then kills himself on a phone booth.
Rena_fan_337: WTF?!?!?! NOOOOOOO RENA-SAMAAAAAAAA!!!!
Not a spoiler:
Rena_fan_337: Wow, I have watched up to Watanagashi-hen and... wow. This has been one fucked up piece of sh*te, but of the INSANELY AWESOME kind.
sagematt: Hey, did you know that in the game K1 falls to many of the penalty games of their club? And one of those is wearing a meido uniform?
Rena_fan_337: Oh really? Awesome! Why did they left that out?!
imac2much
2006-08-24, 00:04
Um, I don't see any reason for you to be PISSED at sushi-y or kj if they say something in japanese and you can't understand it. Would it please you more if they just stopped posting entirely? You probably don't mean to sound this way, but your post almost makes it seem like it's their DUTY to inform you about things you don't know. My experience has shown me that being polite when you ask for something you want will provide better results. Again, maybe you don't mean to come off like that, but that's the tone of your post.
Not to sound like I'm kissing up, but thanks for everyone's clarification to my question, especially Sushi-y and kj. Keep in mind most everyone here appreciate your efforts to better inform those of us who haven't played the games.
Rasuberi
2006-08-24, 00:07
I completely agree imac... I don't know who I'm in love with more, Sushi-Y or kj. XD They've really gotten me to want to read the original higurashi... with all the mentionings of what's left out.
So, I'm really thankful to them, and other game players. Lost Blue is on my love-love list too. <3
sagematt
2006-08-24, 00:08
"Let Kyoto Animation do a remake" (Geez, people must think they have Mida's golden touch or something. Why not J.C. Staff?) :heh:
Aside from lots of Sonozaki melonpan, lots of Rena pantyshots and Satoko "longsockshots" (don't really know how to say that one ^^), and school swimsuit Rika most of the time, and some beach and onsen episodes, I don't think we are getting much on the other side (character development and stuff)...
No, wait
*re-reads what he just wrote*
Actually, JC Staff is not a bad choice after all :heh:
Listen. You will NEVER have the same experience you had when you first saw a scene, even if they remake it perfectly.
But at least we will shake our heads in sign of approval and say: "THIS is how it should have been done". That alone is more than enough for me.
sagematt
2006-08-24, 00:16
@imac2much: Ok, I didn't meant that. I edited my post :(
Sushi and kj stopping posting? Oyashiro-sama, please, NEVER let that happen, it would be really awful. They were the ones who got me into it (by reading their tips) and even made be buy the visual novels.
No, it's not their duty, and if they ultimately decide not to inform us, that's up to them. I'm just saying that they should think of us lesser fans as the younger siblings, we have only the bastardized version by Deen and our inability to read Japanese makes us feel helpless. I'm not asking to spoil us, it's just that if, the arc has ended, if they are going to talk about what was left out, it would be wise and polite to inform us, since I believe we are the ones with the most interest on that matter (for example, such kickass quote by Satoko being left out :sad:).
Not always. Meakashi-hen ended, what's there to spoil? Whatever Deen left out is not a spoiler.
Actually, something similar happened on another forum I frequent, when Fate/Stay Night ended.
sage: Dude, I can't believe Deen left out that much of the story. And why the fsck did they animate a messed-up Fate instead of UBW?!?! Even the 2nd opening spoiled UBW and Heaven's Feel!
Member 1: Oh well, can you now tell us what was left out?
sage: Wouldn't that be spoiling it all?
Member 2: Not really. The show ended. They probably will not show anymore of it. What's there to spoil?
sage: ...True dat.
Actually, there can still be spoilers even if the arc has ended. For example, what if something that is a clue to other arcs that aren't going to be aired is left out, it could still be a spoiler.
Poor Shion... she went beyond haywireness in this episode.
Poor Rika...
Poor Mion too.
Poor Satoko. Sorry to all the Satoko fans, but it sounded so funny in a cute way when she busted out her 人殺し! at Shion:heh:
For some bizare freaky reason I thought it was cute:uhoh: it reminded me of the earlier arc, and I almost imagined a "killer" tag being slapped onto Shion:heh:
and...poor Rena:( almost no screentime throughout this arc.
I got very angry after I watched episode 20 and I was like WTF? This arc still hasn't ended? Are they even going to animate Tsumihoroshi at all?. I guess we can only pray to Oyashiro-sama :(I'll be praying with you:heh:
....:upset::bow::bow::bow::bow:*joins Oyashiro-sama club*
To Oyashiro-sama: I also want more ebil Rena for christmas ;_;
*sends letter to north pole*
joshualimm
2006-08-24, 05:33
Have just watched episode 21... and Ouch! Poor Satoko!
Perhaps it's just me, but I'm actually wondering why the wounds on Satoko looked so shallow, especially after seeing how hard Shion delivered each stab. In fact, I'd think that she could've easily taken off Satoko's arms... Also, with all the blood that was shown splattering, I find it kinda weird how Shion's white outfit wasn't even stained, or how little blood stains were actually on Satoko.
Still, it was a real ordeal seeing Shion torture Satoko. However, since I'm also re-watching School Rumble and Galaxy Angel at the moment... Satoko's voice reminded me of that giraffe (pyotr was it?) and Nomad a little too much.
I actually thought the following, but I guess I was wrong:
1. Shion had already killed Satoko before they went to Satoko's house
2. *Something* might have happened, which would've resulted in her saying "血がない" repeatedly at Keiichi (wind's translation, eps 7)... Or was she actually saying "違いない" back then, after saying that "Rika-chan's disappearance is probably Satoko's fault too"?
Amazing episode. Also, call me crazy, but I don't find the distorted faces too distracting. In fact, I'd like to think that all those weird faces reflect just how twisted the story is turning into. As more and more violence is shown, the more the characters' faces distort.
Sigh.. I've got to really start learning Japanese.
It ended almost like in American movie – psycho bitch dies stupid death – hooray. Would it be that painful for Deen to animate three more minutes to show that last scene with Shion, which Sushi is talking about? Was that scene less important for Deen than showing more retarded facial distortions and reused animations from 8 episode? I’m kind of disappointed, also I would love to see "alternate ending" with “You” in background :/.
theacefrehley
2006-08-24, 08:49
It ended almost like in American movie – psycho bitch dies stupid death – hooray. Would it be that painful for Deen to animate three more minutes to show that last scene with Shion, which Sushi is talking about? Was that scene less important for Deen than showing more retarded facial distortions and reused animations from 8 episode? I’m kind of disappointed, also I would love to see "alternate ending" with “You” in background :/.
Maybe this missing stuff will be on DVD, as 4 or 5 minutes of extras, just to catch peoples attention to buy it :D (I doubt it)
On TV they have problems with commercial deals, time on screen, etc... Maybe that's the reason...
Realy disappointing end to this arc, I was annoyed by the epiosde even before reading what parts of the game were skipped and I am even more disappointed after reading this. I am really hoping the next arc will reveal more about the Great Hinamizawa Mystery (tm) because this one didn't seem to reveal that much about the previous years murders apart from Shion jumping to conclusions all the time.
So Shion just fell because of bad luck? No suicide? I can't say I am happy with such an outcome. And how much blood did she manage to take out of Satoko even before killing her? 100 liters? And the stupid facial distortions made any scary scene with Shion more of a laughing stock than anything that could scare me. Well, I never liked Satoko to begin with but I didn't expect the torture scene to have no emotional impact on me at all.
LostBlue
2006-08-24, 10:27
Have just watched episode 21... and Ouch! Poor Satoko!
Perhaps it's just me, but I'm actually wondering why the wounds on Satoko looked so shallow, especially after seeing how hard Shion delivered each stab. In fact, I'd think that she could've easily taken off Satoko's arms... Also, with all the blood that was shown splattering, I find it kinda weird how Shion's white outfit wasn't even stained, or how little blood stains were actually on Satoko.
Still, it was a real ordeal seeing Shion torture Satoko. However, since I'm also re-watching School Rumble and Galaxy Angel at the moment... Satoko's voice reminded me of that giraffe (pyotr was it?) and Nomad a little too much.
I actually thought the following, but I guess I was wrong:
1. Shion had already killed Satoko before they went to Satoko's house
2. *Something* might have happened, which would've resulted in her saying "血がない" repeatedly at Keiichi (wind's translation, eps 7)... Or was she actually saying "違いない" back then, after saying that "Rika-chan's disappearance is probably Satoko's fault too"?
Amazing episode. Also, call me crazy, but I don't find the distorted faces too distracting. In fact, I'd like to think that all those weird faces reflect just how twisted the story is turning into. As more and more violence is shown, the more the characters' faces distort.
Sigh.. I've got to really start learning Japanese.
I still haven't seen the EP so I have no idea how bloody the anime portrayed it but in the Sound Novel it was extremely gruesome. I remember reading Shion pounding that knife repeatively even after Satoko's bones were showing. What moved me so much is Satoko didn't cry... deeply sadden that they left out Satoko's last words tho...
As for "血がない," that was a mistake by the WinD TL at the time. Shion was saying "違いない" as in "It has to be Satoko. There's no mistake about it, there's no mistake about it <repeats>"
I'm tempted to TL the Shion's monologues for this EP (during the confession, & K1's torture) to serve it justice since I'll already doing the doll scene in the TIP section. It might take me awhile since I have serveral other things to TL but *sigh* I need closure to this disappointment.
Anywho, moving on...
The next arc, Tsumihoroboshi Hen!!!
Rena... :upset:
And this is the arc why Keiichi becomes my favorite character ^^
かっこい～いよ！ 圭ちゃん
Look forward to the return of the Bat and the Hatchet/Machete!
IMO In the Higurashi series, this could have turned out as the WORST possible scenerio for all the character to encounter.
how DEEN is going to pull this off in 5 EPs is something I don't want to think about
Forewarning: The last anime chapter Tsumihoroboshi Hen will not solve the entire mystery. The following chapter Minagoroshi Hen does which will not be animated unfortunately. [/end warning]
BakaOnna
2006-08-24, 10:35
Speaking of Tsumihoroboshi Hen!! Does this scene happen in the arc? Because that would be so awesome. :cool:
This scene (http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2530/1155599651937cb1.jpg) Hee, it's my current desktop wallpaper. :p
LostBlue
2006-08-24, 10:51
:D
Let's just say, TYPE-Moon (the creators of Fate S/N) are fans of this series :)
joshualimm
2006-08-24, 12:59
I still haven't seen the EP so I have no idea how bloody the anime portrayed it but in the Sound Novel it was extremely gruesome. I remember reading Shion pounding that knife repeatively even after Satoko's bones were showing. What moved me so much is Satoko didn't cry... deeply sadden that they left out Satoko's last words tho...
I became a Higurashi fan from watching the anime alone. But since so many people has been mentioning other medias, may I ask:
What other Higurashi products are out there (besides posters, mugs, collectibles, etc)? The Sound Novel? The game? Where and which one should I get (know any sites that accept paypal payment?)?
I really want to find out more about the story.
aliensporebomb
2006-08-24, 14:00
I have a theory now.
The Studio Deen animators were specifically told to leave those things out
of the story because.
Then they could:
Encourage people to buy the manga, sound novels, etcetera because
people who got into the stories from the anime' will look online and find
out the full story is available from the manga/sound novels, etc.
theacefrehley
2006-08-24, 14:39
I have a theory now.
The Studio Deen animators were specifically told to leave those things out
of the story because.
Then they could:
Encourage people to buy the manga, sound novels, etcetera because
people who got into the stories from the anime' will look online and find
out the full story is available from the manga/sound novels, etc.
Or, as I said, release extra stuff on DVD, as bonus.
LostBlue
2006-08-24, 14:52
I'm became a Higurashi fan from watching the anime alone. But since so many people has been mentioning other medias, may I ask:
What other Higurashi products are out there (besides posters, mugs, collectibles, etc)? The Sound Novel? The game? Where and which one should I get (know any sites that accept paypal payment?)?
I really want to find out more about the story.
First, Sound Novel = the Game. It's the one and the same. It's very cheap for a game in the genre. You will need to understand enough Japanese to read a newspaper comfortably for this game, however. The anime is based of this and this will have the complete answer. There will be a PS2 version of the game as well, mention one of the links I have below. The Drama CDs and Manga are also a good source for more of the story.
Check out these links for other Merchandise and where to get them:
Higurashi music discussion (OP/ED, game soundtracks, dramaCDs etc.) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=32067)
Higurashi Merchandise (Figurines, Artbooks, OSTs, etc.) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31724)
Higurashi manga thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31733)
Rasuberi
2006-08-24, 18:30
On that note... above. How many kanji would you say someone would know to "comfortably read a newspaper" about? Even though it'll be a much higher count than I know, I'll still be getting the games no mater what...
Since... This arc was so dissapointing. There were great parts, but overall... If they couldn't do this in six episodes, I'm extreamly worried about Tsumihoroboshi since it sounds like it would need more time than Meakashi.
Are they going to be releasing Drama CDs for all arcs? Because the Drama CDs are great.
Speaking of Tsumihoroboshi Hen!! Does this scene happen in the arc? Because that would be so awesome. :cool:
This scene (http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2530/1155599651937cb1.jpg) Hee, it's my current desktop wallpaper. :p
The exact same question in my mind. :D Ever since I saw that... "happy couples always smile" picture, I've been wondering if the scene is in Tsumihoroboshi-hen or... the later ones.
BakaOnna
2006-08-24, 21:36
:D
Let's just say, TYPE-Moon (the creators of Fate S/N) are fans of this series :)
But omigod! I just saw a similar senario in the manga so it has to happen at sometime during the series. :D
LostBlue
2006-08-24, 21:38
On that note... above. How many kanji would you say someone would know to "comfortably read a newspaper" about? Even though it'll be a much higher count than I know, I'll still be getting the games no mater what...
Since... This arc was so dissapointing. There were great parts, but overall... If they couldn't do this in six episodes, I'm extreamly worried about Tsumihoroboshi since it sounds like it would need more time than Meakashi.
Are they going to be releasing Drama CDs for all arcs? Because the Drama CDs are great.
Here, I took some sample text from the game. If you can read and understand these then you should be fine.
「あ、圭ちゃんですか？ 私です。詩音です。」
「電話、なかなか出なかったんで、お留守かと思って切ろうとしてたんですよ。」
「あ、…あぁ、ごめん…。ちょっとその…お風呂に入っててさ。」
「…それでもご家族の方が電話を取りませんか？ ひょっとして……圭ちゃんの家、今、ご両親はお留守なんで すか？」
「いや別に…留守ってわけじゃ……、そ、そそ、そんな事より！！ 聞いたか？！ 梨花ちゃんと沙都子の件。 」
「いえ。…結局、あの後、どうなったんですか？ 見つかったんですか？」
「…………………あぁ。…見つからなかった。」
「……圭ちゃん、どうか気を落とさないで…。」
「………………梨花ちゃんと沙都子は、………さらわれたんだよな…。」
「……はい。それは間違いないでしょうね…。」
「……………梨花ちゃんと、沙都子は、……あ、いや…ッ、えぇと……、あ、ごめん。…その………村長さんは 、…さらわれて…どうなったと思う…？ まだ……生きてるんだろうか…？」
圭一の言い方には迷いがあった。
沙都子と梨花が生きていると信じたくて、遠回しに聞いているのがわかった。
………圭一も、沙都子と同じだ。
さらわれたら身代金でも取るんじゃい限りすぐに殺すのが当り前。
私だったら生きてるなんて夢にも思わない。
…だけど圭一は、その恐ろしい想像をぐっとこらえ、わずかでも生きている望みに賭けようとし ていた。
そんな目立たない心の強さが、今の私には痛いくらいによくわかる。
…そして、その強さが、私より遥かに強いことも。
…もう私は、鬼だから。……言い訳なんか、しない。
「殺されちゃったんだと思います。」
「………お、………おいおい、………そんなにあっさり……。」
「…人間をさらって、その状態を維持するのってとても大変なことだと思います。…人質にするんでもない限り 、用が済んだら殺しちゃうのが一番合理的じゃないかと。」
「こ、ここ、殺しちゃうって、…そんなにあっさり…。ひ、人の命を何だと思ってやがるんだ…ッ ？！？！」
「………恐ろしいことだとは思いますが。…多分、そうではないかと。」
「村長が殺されたということは…、梨花ちゃんや沙都子も……同じ様に殺されたかもしれないということなのか …？！？！ …い、…いや、…そんなはずは……、どっかのジジイとはわけが違うぞ？！梨花ちゃんだぞ？！ 沙都子だぞ？！ そ…そんなにあっさりと……殺すはずは………！」
私の口から、殺したという直接的な言葉を聞かされても、なお圭一は抗った。
胸の内の友人たちを殺すまいと、必死に戦った。
……私は戦わなかった。
あっさりと殺した。
悟史くんを庇わなかったと詩音を責めたくせに、…私自身、悟史くんをあっさり殺していたのだ 。
「梨花ちゃんと沙都子ちゃんも、…同じだと思ったほうがいいでしょうね。」
「うわああぁああぁああぁあぁぁああぁああぁあぁああぁああああぁあああぁああぁああぁああぁあああぁああ ぁああぁあぁああぁぁああぁああぁああぁあぁああぁあああぁああぁあぁああぁああ…ッ！！！！ 」
ＸＸ県鹿骨市雛見沢村で、連続失踪事件が発生した。
容疑者は、園崎魅音（１Ｘ歳）
容疑者は６月１９日から２１日までの間に雛見沢村住民５人（園崎お魎・園崎詩音・公由喜一郎・古手梨花・ 北条沙都子）を拉致、監禁して殺害した疑い。
事件は当初、情報不足のため初動捜査で遅れをとったが、偶然的、電撃的に解決した。
２２日午前中、園崎邸前を巡回していた警邏車両は邸内よりの悲鳴を聞き、緊急措置として邸内へ 突入。
失踪中の容疑者の妹（園崎詩音）とクラスメート２名（前原圭一・竜宮礼奈）を保護した。
容疑者は現場より逃走する。
失踪者たちを殺害したと思われる園崎邸内の離れ地下奥、拷問室からは、失踪者４人（園崎お魎・公由喜一郎 ・古手梨花・北条沙都子）の毛髪、皮膚片、血液などを発見。
拷問室内で失踪者たちが拷問を受けたものと断定した。
ただし、その遺体は依然、発見されていない。
監禁されていたクラスメートの証言から、監禁現場となった、園崎邸内の離れ地下にあるものと見て捜索を続 けているが、容疑者の逃亡ルート共々、発見には未だ至っていない。
また、ほのめかしたとされる近年の連続怪死事件への関与も捜査が続けられているが、
園崎魅音が直接、または間接的に関わったという証拠は発見されていない。
事件の動機には今もなお不明な点が多く、また、園崎家、雛見沢村住民の極度の非協力もあり、その解明には 膨大な時間を要することが予想される。
地域に詳しい地元警察の見解では、雛見沢村内の信仰に対する冒涜行為を巡る、内部懲罰、リンチ事件ではな いかと見ている。
地域性に根ざした特殊な事件であることは間違いなく、県警本部は慎重な捜査を命じた。
容疑者の妹で、もっとも監禁期間の長いと思われる失踪者（園崎詩音）から重要な手掛かりを得られるのでは ないかと期待したが、
事件後、精神に重度の後遺症を患い、今日まで正常な事情聴取に応じられる精神状態にない。
精神科医は、ショックによる一過性のものと診断したが、その回復の目処は今日でも立っていな い。
…路地を曲がったところにワゴン車が止まっていた。
窓が開いていて、カーラジオの音が外に漏れ出している。…ニュースか何かのようだった。
「……たため、道路交通法違反、公務執行妨害で３名を逮捕しました。一連の雛見沢ダム建設反対を巡る運動は 、先月の機動隊との流血事件を境に過激化の一途を辿っており、警察では過激な活動家による次の事件を警戒し ています。先週も、建設省庁舎前での犬飼建設大臣への直訴事件があったばかりで…、」
犬飼建設大臣という名に、少年はぴくりと耳を動かした。
その時、ラジオの音が漏れていた車の窓から、ひょっこりと男が顔を出した。
車の扉を開けるときの仕草が、前後から人や車が来てないか、確かめるための仕草とは少し異な った。
……面識のない男と突然、目が会い、少年は少し狼狽する…。
「……鶯、ＯＫ。雲雀、ＯＫ。前後２ブロック確保した。……いいぞ…！」
助手席の男が小さく耳打ちする。
男は頷くと扉を開け、…少年の前に立ちはだかった。
「………キミ、…犬飼寿樹くん？」
男はそう尋ねながら少年の名札を覗き込んだ。
…『いぬがいとしき』、名札には平仮名でそう書かれていた…。
Rasuberi
2006-08-25, 00:08
Hmm. Yay, I was able to read more than I thought I'd be able to. o0; I only had some trouble with the epilogue, but that's nothing a dictionary couldn't help. XD Yay, happiness.
Thanks for the samples as well, LostBlue~! I have a little comfort on understanding it now. <3
theacefrehley
2006-08-25, 08:57
Noteboook Page 199 (Ep. 21) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=654451&postcount=108)
Regarding this TIP, why in the end we have:
"June XX, 1983
Sonozaki Mion"
?
Is it just Shion's madness, or we have another twins switch twist here? (well, since she use the term "Onibaba" and it is Shion's notes, so it is Shion, but...)
And about the gas disaster? It seems this time it didn't happened... Or it did?
imac2much
2006-08-25, 09:46
I'm not an expert on this series, as I haven't played the games or anything, but I bet it has a lot to do with this hint:
When "Mion" (who is held captive in the cell) sees Keiichi, she's initially happy, but then when she sees "Shion" (holding a rock to knock Keiichi out), "Mion" screems out "onee" (big sister).... Makes you wonder!
Someone correct me if I'm wrong :)
LostBlue
2006-08-25, 11:21
@Rasuberi
^^ I'm glad I could help. You going to really enjoy the Sound Novels, I grantee it
Noteboook Page 199 (Ep. 21) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=654451&postcount=108)
Regarding this TIP, why in the end we have:
"June XX, 1983
Sonozaki Mion"
?
Is it just Shion's madness, or we have another twins switch twist here? (well, since she use the term "Onibaba" and it is Shion's notes, so it is Shion, but...)
And about the gas disaster? It seems this time it didn't happened... Or it did?
Shion forces Mion to switch names. Shion takes back her name as Mion (as she really born was Mion - at least if we were to trust her memory), thus forces Shion (formally Mion) to call her Onee as "Mion" is the superior one.
I've still yet to seen the EP. Was this skipped?
Concerning the Gas Disaster, No it did not. Same can be assumed for Watanagashi. As for Onikakushi, I will let you guys decide for yourselves ^^
TIP (Time Reference)
For those trying to figure out the mystery. By this time, a few hard dates have been given. Meakashi Hen (although not clear in the anime), confirms that the Watanagashi Festival occurs on Sunday 06/19 in 1983 (I believe it was this chapter). Keiichi giving the doll to Rena occurs 2 weeks prior. There also some other dates found throughout. I would look at the TIP section carefully. ^^
Some people are on the right track with some really good ideas. Good Luck. I wasn't able to figure it out until I was told. I totally thought Oryou was behind it all, and this chapter crushed that theory. It was really sad b/c I got nearly all of the Watanagashi mystery solved, then Mion (the real Mion) throws that curve ball at the end. Gah~ I was completely lost after this point in the story.
So you can safely rule out all Sonozaki members and associates (Kimiyoshi for example). You can also rule out Satoshi being thrown into the well (the police didn't find him there).
The intruding the Saiguden has nothing to do with Tomitake's and Takano's death either.
There's other things confirmed, and disproved. Good luck! ^^
theacefrehley
2006-08-25, 15:56
I've still yet to seen the EP. Was this skipped?
This is called, "watch things raw" :D
Concerning the Gas Disaster, No it did not. Same can be assumed for Watanagashi. As for Onikakushi, I will let you guys decide for yourselves ^^
As for Onikakushi, it's kind of hard to say anything...
Rika seems to be a key character of the whole story, but she barely appears in this arc...
TIP (Time Reference)
For those trying to figure out the mystery. By this time, a few hard dates have been given. Meakashi Hen (although not clear in the anime), confirms that the Watanagashi Festival occurs on Sunday 06/19 in 1983 (I believe it was this chapter). Keiichi giving the doll to Rena occurs 2 weeks prior. There also some other dates found throughout. I would look at the TIP section carefully. ^^
On tatarigoroshi it's informed the date
hmmm
Tatarigoroshi => Rika 06/21, Keiichi 08/29
Meakashi ==> Rika 06/22, Keiichi 07/03
Takano and Tomitake 06/19
Is there anything important around 06/21, 06/22?
Rika seems to die always near the same day
So you can safely rule out all Sonozaki members and associates (Kimiyoshi for example). You can also rule out Satoshi being thrown into the well (the police didn't find him there).
The intruding the Saiguden has nothing to do with Tomitake's and Takano's death either.
There's other things confirmed, and disproved. Good luck! ^^
To me it seemed too obvious that the Sonozakis weren't the ones to blame. Everything seemed to point to them :D. It'd be too easy a solution as such. hehe
The only suspect left is Takano... but what she wants...?!!?! Revenge?
Shion forces Mion to switch names. Shion takes back her name as Mion (as she really born was Mion - at least if we were to trust her memory), thus forces Shion (formally Mion) to call her Onee as "Mion" is the superior one.
Now that you mention it, was this covered in the anime? I don't remember hearing it. Did they skip that part?
Shion was actually born as Mion, and Mion was born as Shion.
Since "Mion" (that is, the Shion that we know) is the rightful heir to the Sonozaki family, she was favored over "Shion" (the Mion that we know) ever since they were little.
"Mion" and "Shion" disliked the different treatments they got: they're the same person, so why should one be treated different from the other?
That's why they began swapping identities so they could both enjoy the privileges that "Mion" has. Sometimes Mion would become Shion, and Shion would become Mion. In a way, both of them are Mion, and both of them are Shion.
However, one day, while "Shion" was pretending to be Mion, she was taken away and was given the demon tattoo which marked her as the next head of the Sonozaki family.
... Starting from that day, "Shion" lost her identity as Shion, and became Mion. "Mion" lost her identity as Mion, and became Shion.
That's why Mion has always felt bad towards Shion for stealing her identity, because it was Shion (the original Mion) who should've been chosen as the next head of the Sonozaki family, not her.
When Shion locked Mion up inside the underground jail cell, they finally reverted back to their original identities, hence the "onee" from Mion.
You can also see Shion referring to Mion as "Shion" in the final TIPs as well.
Now you know the true meanings behind Mion and Shion's coversation inside the library!
Now that you mention it, was this covered in the anime? I don't remember hearing it. Did they skip that part?
No. That's why I was angry at the anime because they left out that MAJOR twist. Granted, since it only makes things much more confusing I understand the anime staff's decision to leave that out.
However, I still believe that showing this twist would've been a better way to show Shion's (the real Mion) internal hatred towards Mion (the real Shion) as being "superior" than her. And they also left out the important "onee~" yell by Mion (the real Shion) which was a defining moment.
Sigh, as of right now, my internal thoughts for Higurashi right now are:
Game>Drama CD>Manga>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unscalable wall>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anime
BakaOnna
2006-08-25, 16:57
Now that you mention it, was this covered in the anime? I don't remember hearing it. Did they skip that part?
Shion was actually born as Mion, and Mion was born as Shion.
Since "Mion" (that is, the Shion that we know) is the rightful heir to the Sonozaki family, she was favored over "Shion" (the Mion that we know) ever since they were little.
"Mion" and "Shion" disliked the different treatments they got: they're the same person, so why should one be treated different from the other?
That's why they began swapping identities so they could both enjoy the privileges that "Mion" has. Sometimes Mion would become Shion, and Shion would become Mion. In a way, both of them are Mion, and both of them are Shion.
However, one day, while "Shion" was pretending to be Mion, she was taken away and was given the demon tattoo which marked her as the next head of the Sonozaki family.
... Starting from that day, "Shion" lost her identity as Shion, and became Mion. "Mion" lost her identity as Mion, and became Shion.
That's why Mion has always felt bad towards Shion for stealing her identity, because it was Shion (the original Mion) who should've been chosen as the next head of the Sonozaki family, not her.
When Shion locked Mion up inside the underground jail cell, they finally reverted back to their original identities, hence the "onee" from Mion.
You can also see Shion referring to Mion as "Shion" in the final TIPs as well.
Now you know the true meanings behind Mion and Shion's coversation inside the library!
WHOA THERE!!! Another plot twist!? :twitch: So the "Shion" that was going crazy and killing people was actually Mion, while the Mion we knew since Onikakushi-hen is actually Shion! Dang, that's... weird. :twitch:
And about the gas disaster? It seems this time it didn't happened... Or it did?
By looking at TIPS #113 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=656522&postcount=113), you can see that the residents of Hinamizawa (i.e. Rena, etc.) are all alive - hence the gas disaster DID NOT occur. As Meakashi is very much like Watanagashi, you can safely say that the gas disaster DID NOT happen there as well.
Now we are faced with two variables:
1. The gas disaster does happen
2. The gas disaster does not
Figure out the rule on why this occurs and why not on the other, and you are one step closer to figuring out the whole picture...
Onikakushi-hen (I'll let you decide if the gas disaster happened here or not)
Watanagashi-hen (gas disaster DOES NOT happen)
Tatarigoroshi-hen (gas disaster happens)
Himatsubushi-hen (gas disaster happens)
Meakashi-hen (gas disaster DOES NOT happen)
Tsumihoroboshi-hen (.....let's see and find out)
Shion was actually born as Mion, and Mion was born as Shion.
Since "Mion" (that is, the Shion that we know) is the rightful heir to the Sonozaki family, she was favored over "Shion" (the Mion that we know) ever since they were little.
"Mion" and "Shion" disliked the different treatments they got: they're the same person, so why should one be treated different from the other?
That's why they began swapping identities so they could both enjoy the privileges that "Mion" has. Sometimes Mion would become Shion, and Shion would become Mion. In a way, both of them are Mion, and both of them are Shion.
However, one day, while "Shion" was pretending to be Mion, she was taken away and was given the demon tattoo which marked her as the next head of the Sonozaki family.
... Starting from that day, "Shion" lost her identity as Shion, and became Mion. "Mion" lost her identity as Mion, and became Shion.
That's why Mion has always felt bad towards Shion for stealing her identity, because it was Shion (the original Mion) who should've been chosen as the next head of the Sonozaki family, not her.
When Shion locked Mion up inside the underground jail cell, they finally reverted back to their original identities, hence the "onee" from Mion.
You can also see Shion referring to Mion as "Shion" in the final TIPs as well.
Now you know the true meanings behind Mion and Shion's coversation inside the library!
This is just too perfect..
No way on earth would I ever had come to that conclusion.., and it was something that realy passed me by..
Usualy I don't read spoilers.., but when I saw this one's title.., it was something I realy needed / wanted to know.., and like you said Sushi, enables us to understand the true meaning behind of what happened between Shion & Mion.
Its realy.. too perfect..
Thanks :)
theacefrehley
2006-08-25, 21:34
WHOA THERE!!! Another plot twist!? :twitch: So the "Shion" that was going crazy and killing people was actually Mion, while the Mion we knew since Onikakushi-hen is actually Shion! Dang, that's... weird. :twitch:
It's not so complicated...
They are the same people we always knew. They simple happened to be born with different names, and by "accident", had to switch identities long ago...
I think it is pointless starting calling Shion (the one that fell in love with Satoshi) as Mion now (and vice-versa). She "lost" this name, no matter what...
By looking at TIPS #113 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=656522&postcount=113), you can see that the residents of Hinamizawa (i.e. Rena, etc.) are all alive - hence the gas disaster DID NOT occur. As Meakashi is very much like Watanagashi, you can safely say that the gas disaster DID NOT happen there as well.
Now we are faced with two variables:
1. The gas disaster does happen
2. The gas disaster does not
Figure out the rule on why this occurs and why not on the other, and you are one step closer to figuring out the whole picture...
Onikakushi-hen (I'll let you decide if the gas disaster happened here or not)
Watanagashi-hen (gas disaster DOES NOT happen)
Tatarigoroshi-hen (gas disaster happens)
Himatsubushi-hen (gas disaster happens)
Meakashi-hen (gas disaster DOES NOT happen)
Tsumihoroboshi-hen (.....let's see and find out)
There is only one thing
Rika is Killed = Gas disaster
Rika Suicides != Gas disaster
Poor Rika, she always dies.... :D
The meaning of this gas disaster... no clues... Unless she is in fact Oyashiro-sama getting revenge hehehe
LostBlue
2006-08-25, 22:38
It's not so complicated...
They are the same people we always knew. They simple happened to be born with different names, and by "accident", had to switch identities long ago...
Although Shion in her demented state accused Mion of purposely knowing the tattoo will be given on that day (b/c the day "Mion" was invited to a banquet, strangely "Shion" was invited to go to an amusement park - a rare treat). One of the famous lines here is "Give me back my Mion."
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8395/givemebackmymionyp4.jpg
MADs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anime *sigh*
imac2much
2006-08-25, 23:00
Where do you find such MADs? Or am I not allowed to ask that (I thought it was ok since MADs themselves aren't licensed or anything... but let me know if I'm wrong and I'll delete my post)
LostBlue
2006-08-25, 23:10
Sushi-Y <3
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=644525&postcount=117
I still want to know if someone could fansub the MADs... >.>
LostBlue
2006-08-25, 23:18
maybe, not soon tho
sagematt
2006-08-26, 03:38
Shion was actually born as Mion, and Mion was born as Shion.
Since "Mion" (that is, the Shion that we know) is the rightful heir to the Sonozaki family, she was favored over "Shion" (the Mion that we know) ever since they were little.
"Mion" and "Shion" disliked the different treatments they got: they're the same person, so why should one be treated different from the other?
That's why they began swapping identities so they could both enjoy the privileges that "Mion" has. Sometimes Mion would become Shion, and Shion would become Mion. In a way, both of them are Mion, and both of them are Shion.
However, one day, while "Shion" was pretending to be Mion, she was taken away and was given the demon tattoo which marked her as the next head of the Sonozaki family.
... Starting from that day, "Shion" lost her identity as Shion, and became Mion. "Mion" lost her identity as Mion, and became Shion.
That's why Mion has always felt bad towards Shion for stealing her identity, because it was Shion (the original Mion) who should've been chosen as the next head of the Sonozaki family, not her.
When Shion locked Mion up inside the underground jail cell, they finally reverted back to their original identities, hence the "onee" from Mion.
You can also see Shion referring to Mion as "Shion" in the final TIPs as well.
Now you know the true meanings behind Mion and Shion's coversation inside the library!
Holy f---! I so didn't expect that one.
Now, that kinda reminds me of a book I had to read sometime ago (A Hundred Years of Solitude), where the twins when they were young always swapped their identities only to play pranks, but that went so far that they even got their identities mixed up (something that only their grandmother kinda suspected). Many years later, when they died and were about to be buried, the undertakers were so drunk that they confused their coffins, so they actually got to rest on their correct tombs :D
Shion was actually born as Mion, and Mion was born as Shion.
Since "Mion" (that is, the Shion that we know) is the rightful heir to the Sonozaki family, she was favored over "Shion" (the Mion that we know) ever since they were little.
"Mion" and "Shion" disliked the different treatments they got: they're the same person, so why should one be treated different from the other?
That's why they began swapping identities so they could both enjoy the privileges that "Mion" has. Sometimes Mion would become Shion, and Shion would become Mion. In a way, both of them are Mion, and both of them are Shion.
However, one day, while "Shion" was pretending to be Mion, she was taken away and was given the demon tattoo which marked her as the next head of the Sonozaki family.
... Starting from that day, "Shion" lost her identity as Shion, and became Mion. "Mion" lost her identity as Mion, and became Shion.
That's why Mion has always felt bad towards Shion for stealing her identity, because it was Shion (the original Mion) who should've been chosen as the next head of the Sonozaki family, not her.
When Shion locked Mion up inside the underground jail cell, they finally reverted back to their original identities, hence the "onee" from Mion.
You can also see Shion referring to Mion as "Shion" in the final TIPs as well.
Now you know the true meanings behind Mion and Shion's coversation inside the library!
That's pretty cool to know although I'm not sure if I'm more confused now or less confused. In the end up Meakashi-hen when "Mion" is leading K1 down to the torture chamber she says "You know, Shion really liked you." then seconds later she says "Mion liked you too." Why is she referring to herself in the third person in both cases?
Still, later in that Ep when "Mion" has K1 in the torture chamber K1 says stuff to the extent that "Mion is will always be my best friend. The Mion inside me will never die." etc. I see now why "Mion" is moved to tears by that.
Now we are faced with two variables:
1. The gas disaster does happen
2. The gas disaster does not
Figure out the rule on why this occurs and why not on the other, and you are one step closer to figuring out the whole picture...
Onikakushi-hen (I'll let you decide if the gas disaster happened here or not)
Watanagashi-hen (gas disaster DOES NOT happen)
Tatarigoroshi-hen (gas disaster happens)
Himatsubushi-hen (gas disaster happens)
Meakashi-hen (gas disaster DOES NOT happen)
Tsumihoroboshi-hen (.....let's see and find out)
mmm.. lets see then..
So far we can conclude that (this based on what we know from the TIPS and saw through the episodes)
On Onikakushi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Missing.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Unknown.
Furude Rika - Status : Unknown.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Keiichi.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Keiichi.
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide, death caused to loss of blood / resembles the same death sympthoms as Tomitake Jirou.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Unknown.
*Gas Disaster : Unknown*
On Watanagashi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Dead.
Strangled to death in the mountains of Gifu Prefecture. Corpse was later burned.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from multiple pierce wounds over the entire body.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from a pierce wound in the throat area, death very similar to that of Tomitake Jirou's.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: fell from the vertical escape tunnel.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Alive
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Passed away at the hospital. Cause of death: chronic and acute heart failure.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Died by falling off the veranda from her hideout.
*Gas Disaster : did NOT happen*
On Tatarigoroshi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Dead.
Strangled to death in the mountains of Gifu Prefecture. Corpse was later burned.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Missing.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Murdered on the shrine compounds?
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Great Hinamizawa Disaster.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Dead.
Great Hinamizawa Disaster.
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Attempted suicide at local hospital on 1983.08.29
Fell under a severe fever and passed away two days later on November 30, 1983.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Dead.
Committed suicide at local hospital.
*Gas Disaster : Happens*
On Himatsubushi-hen :
No specific details on how any of the events on 1983 toke place where given to us.
None except one.
Furude Rika - "this day, on June 1983.. or perhaps a few days after... I will be killed."
Hence we conclude.. Status : Dead.
Possibly murdered.
All the previous events from 1979 to 1982 followed the same path through all the arcs.
*Gas Disaster : Happens*
On Meakashi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Dead.
Strangled to death in the mountains of Gifu Prefecture. Corpse was later burned.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from multiple pierce wounds over the entire body.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from a pierce wound in the throat area, death very similar to that of Tomitake Jirou's.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: fell from the vertical escape tunnel.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Alive
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Passed away at the hospital. Cause of death: chronic and acute heart failure.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Died by falling off the veranda from her hideout.
*Gas Disaster : did NOT happen*
-
Now for my own speculation..
Possible reason to as why the disaster happens or not ?
It seems to me that currently there is but 1 possible link.. for as we do not know in Onikakushi-hen if the disaster happened or not.
(however I am leaning to the fact that it didn't, I cannot support this decision based on any facts)
The possible influencial link I speak of is..
Rika's type of death.
Again.., I stress that since we do not know the outcome on Onikakushi-hen.., the possibility of her type death having any influence on the Disaster can then be compleatly comproved or disaproved.
On Watanagashi-hen / Meakashi-hen Rika takes her own life, this dispite under the circustances of what happened.., she commited Suicide and the disaster did NOT happen.
On Tatarigoroshi-hen / Himatsubushi-hen Rika is found murdered, and as she predicted herself, she would be killed.
The disaster happened.
This is realy just a long shot.., but currently it is was the only connection I could find upon when reading the outcomes..
It definitly lacks alot of detailed support, and unfortunatly I at the moment cannot give such; however.. I am in hope that once Tsumihoroboshi-hen ends we can come to a good conclusion on it.
At least this was worth it just to organize all the death's that toke place through the arcs ;)
No specific details on how any of the events on 1983 toke place where given to us.
None except one.
Furude Rika - "this day, on June 1983.. or perhaps a few days after... I will be killed."
That's not true, Ooishi describes Rika's death in detail. Apparently she was killed in pretty much the same way as in Tatarigoroshi-hen.
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Passed away at the hospital. Cause of death: chronic and acute heart failure.
You sure about that or this is a conjecture? We don't see what happens with Keiichi apart from witnessing him being attacked by an angry psycho twin, most likely in his imagination.
The explanation you are putting forward does seem the most obvious...and that's exactly why I don't buy it. ;) Looking at the deaths alone, we might try with other guesses - let's say Onibaba staying alive - gas disaster (assuming it happens in Onikakushi). Or Shion dying - no disaster.
theacefrehley
2006-08-26, 20:48
You sure about that or this is a conjecture? We don't see what happens with Keiichi apart from witnessing him being attacked by an angry psycho twin, most likely in his imagination.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=656522&postcount=113
BakaOnna
2006-08-26, 21:00
You sure about that or this is a conjecture? We don't see what happens with Keiichi apart from witnessing him being attacked by an angry psycho twin, most likely in his imagination.
No, Alu is correct. That was stated in the credits of Meakashi-hen. So far, Keiichi has died in all the arcs except for Himatsubushi-hen, at least from what we know.
I knew I should check the tips one more time before asking that question. ;)
It's interesting that the time of death for K1 is a few days later than the one of Shion, I guess he has been recovering for a few days before Ooishi came to tell him about the "walking dead", possibly causing the hallucination. Unless Oyashiro-sama sent the ghost of Mion or something, that is. :heh:
I guess K1's heart couldn't cope with the extrme stress of seeing this "ghost". Although it's weird that he saw or at least thought he saw quite scary things in Onikakushi, too, yet he didn't suffer from heart failure. What if his death was caused by yet another mysterious drug?
That's not true, Ooishi describes Rika's death in detail. Apparently she was killed in pretty much the same way as in Tatarigoroshi-hen.
You sure about that or this is a conjecture? We don't see what happens with Keiichi apart from witnessing him being attacked by an angry psycho twin, most likely in his imagination.
The explanation you are putting forward does seem the most obvious...and that's exactly why I don't buy it. ;) Looking at the deaths alone, we might try with other guesses - let's say Onibaba staying alive - gas disaster (assuming it happens in Onikakushi). Or Shion dying - no disaster.
Ah.., you got me on the part where Oishi describes Rika's death with detail.., I guess I overlooked that on episode 15.., however I was positive that her type of death had been similar to what happened in Tatarigoroshi-hen.., since it would make the most sence if I base my previous speculation on it ;)
On the Keiichi status at Meakashi-hen / Watanagashi-hen.., I always speculated that due to his paranoia and on how he became so mentaly unstable by the end of the events.., that that image of Shion was all in his head.., and due to the shock of it.., ended up causing his death.
However like theacefrehley and BakaOnna previously mencioned.., the latest TIP's posted come to comprove this, in which in fact.., ended up beeing as what I posted.
Well, obvious or not.., I was only able to come to the conclusion / possible conclusion that on how Rika dies influences the disaster or not.., after going through and reviewing all the death lists :p, and note that some are not mencioned on the TIP's.., as what most happened on Onikakushi-hen; hence so many status beeing left "unknown" aswell.
However currently its the only explination I find for something that influences the disaster or not; Onibaba's status seems irrelevant to me.., aswell as some of the other characters (such as doctor Irei aswell for example) on this aspect.
It seems to me and as we saw through the notes of Shion.., that Onibaba did control somewhat part of what happened regarding the curse.., but all and all on more "un-natural aspects" her involvement I belive was none whatsoever.
Hence it wouldn't make sence to place her status.., since again.. on this.. she is irrelevent.
Or should I say.., not as relevant as all the characters I chose to post the status ;)
I still cannot give full support to my speculations.., for alot of the misteries on Onikakushi-hen are still left on the open.
Hence.., I hope that maybe once Tsumihoroboshi-hen progresses we can see if the way on how Rika dies has any influence on the disaster happening or not :)
Oh.. and Shion seems to die in every arc except one; so far only on Onikakushi-hen we cannot tell.., since her status is "unknown", and I do emphazise "unknown" here :p
Anyway.., its pretty safe to say that she is not the one who causes any influence to the disaster.
-
Edit :
-
Oki, I went back to episode 15 and reviewed the details on Rika's death in Himatsubushi-hen.
So.., based on what we know from the TIP's and from what we saw on the Episodes ; here is the now Full death status list on all the Arcs currently to this point so far :
On Onikakushi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Missing.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Unknown.
Furude Rika - Status : Unknown.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Keiichi.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Keiichi.
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide, death caused to loss of blood / resembles the same death sympthoms as Tomitake Jirou.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Unknown.
*Gas Disaster : Unknown*
On Watanagashi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Dead.
Strangled to death in the mountains of Gifu Prefecture. Corpse was later burned.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from multiple pierce wounds over the entire body.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from a pierce wound in the throat area, death very similar to that of Tomitake Jirou's.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: fell from the vertical escape tunnel.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Alive.
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Passed away at the hospital. Cause of death: chronic and acute heart failure.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Died by falling off the veranda from her hideout.
*Gas Disaster : did NOT happen*
On Tatarigoroshi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Dead.
Strangled to death in the mountains of Gifu Prefecture. Corpse was later burned.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Missing.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Murdered on the shrine compounds.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Great Hinamizawa Disaster.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Dead.
Great Hinamizawa Disaster.
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Attempted suicide at local hospital on 1983.08.29
Fell under a severe fever and passed away two days later on November 30, 1983.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Dead.
Committed suicide at local hospital.
*Gas Disaster : Happens*
On Himatsubushi-hen :
No specific details on how any of the events on 1983 toke place where given to us.
None except one.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Murdered.
After having been submited to some sort of drug, her abdomen was cut open and her internal organs where pulled out.
According to Oishi's description (episode 15, 17:25 - 17:48) :
" on the same day as the disaster some Senior citizens who where visiting the Shrine discovered her corpse, naked and barefoot.
From what we do know is that she was carried to that place after beeing put into a sputor with drugs,
Where her abdomen was cut open and her internal organs intentionally drawn out. "
Then on Akasaka's flashback, we obtain the following information aswell (episode 15, 20:35 - 20:45).
- From Rika herself :
" this day, on June 1983.. or perhaps a few days after... I will be killed. "
All the previous events from 1979 to 1982 followed the same path through all the arcs.
*Gas Disaster : Happens*
On Meakashi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Dead.
Strangled to death in the mountains of Gifu Prefecture. Corpse was later burned.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from multiple pierce wounds over the entire body.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from a pierce wound in the throat area, death very similar to that of Tomitake Jirou's.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: fell from the vertical escape tunnel.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Alive.
As of present day in 2004, alive and well. Currently residing in Shishibone City.
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Passed away at the hospital. Cause of death: chronic and acute heart failure.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Died by falling off the veranda from her hideout.
*Gas Disaster : did NOT happen*
As we can now see, Rika's type of Death on Himatsubushi-hen is supposedly equal to that of on Tatarigoroshi-hen.
So far.., the only 2 arcs we know of where the Gas Disaster did occur.
LostBlue
2006-08-28, 10:27
I finally got to watch EP 21... it wasn't as horrific as I thought it would be, but *sigh* It's quite unfortunate the shear amount of stuff they skipped.
The "Curse System"
They never explained Shion's theory for the Curse. She actually had a very rational explanation. According to her theory this was the truth behind the Curse:
1) Someone got on the bad side of Onibaba
2) Onibaba would make a subtle yet unpleasant statement about that person (ie Wouldn't it be sad if ______ didn't come to the Festival?)
3) That statement will spread around the entire village much like how Shion made the statement about K1 knowing Rika was in danger in this EP. That statement officially made that person the enemy of the village and the target for the curse.
4) Now anytime anywhere the opportunities comes about that person will be killed by someone. That someone could be anyone and no one will question that person about it, nor will anyone will ask anything about the incident, since everyone in the village is that person. Since no one knew who specifically did it and every year it was committed by a different random villager the secrecy was kept. This is the System of the Curse.
Of course this turns out to be false though. Shion tries to manipulate the System to using Keiichi as bait but nothing ever happens to him.
Another thing that was skipped... The Sonozaki Heirloom. Only the Sonozaki Head knows of its existence. Mion herself never knew about it until she corners Onibaba about Satoshi. The Sonozaki Heirloom is a tradition. This tradition is... to bluff. It was greatly used during the Dam Contruction. There was no doubt that the Sonozaki Family did illegal stuff during the Dam Construction and everyone knew it. But also anytime anything happened that was in favor of the Sonozaki Family (whether they were involved or not), all Onibaba had to do was smile and laugh a little, and everyone (the village, the cops, even the other Gosankes) believe they were pulling strings behind the scenes. This Bluff makes the Sonozaki seem more powerful then they really are and maintains the power and the image of the Sonozaki Head.
Overall, the anime Meakashi Hen wasn't bad. Even if I didn't have my game knowledge I still think I would have hated that end. They should have given Shion's death a little more closure (like the Akane or the Oishi TIP) even if it was for a minute. *sigh* oh well.
aliensporebomb
2006-08-28, 15:50
Alu:
Very long and involved and detail and it makes me think:
Each event happened to each set of characters in different universes
or sub-universes.
In other words, in the five universes above you have five Mions, Shions,
Rikas, Satokos, Keiichis, etc.
It is almost like throwing the dice in each universe results in a different
outcome and ultimately one will prove to be the least displeasing outcome.
Fascinating possibilities indeed.
Wanderer
2006-08-28, 17:48
I have had the strong suspicion that Rika's type of death could have something to do with the gas disaster ever since episode 15.
Really, I think that Meakashi-hen is only a minor step in the greater mystery about what all these arcs are, and who is important in the greater picture. Basically, I think of Meakashi-hen as having its main mystery (The identity of the twins) as a more or less classic, logical type... which is within a greater supernatural mystery. It is why we see it first of the answer arcs, kind of as a prelude to the main course.
Up until now, I've thought that the main possibilities for the connection between the arcs consisted of:
A) The simple "Logical Answer". They are not even different, the viewer is just presented with information that makes it seem like there are these different events that coincide with the same time.
B) Parallel realities. They are different outcomes from a different set of decisions. The arcs are similar in content and setting, but there is no further connection between arcs.
C) Resets. Some people (or gods) have memory of the previous arcs. It may also be possible for normal people to remember as well (for example, Keiichi's memories at the end of Tatarigoroshi-hen of events we saw in Onikakushi-hen)
D) Transversable realities. They are like B, but there is a connection of some kind.
Up until now, I've more or less been undecided on whether I liked C or D better. The new poem for the next chapterAt the first time, I do my best to try again
against the inevitable tragedy.
In the second time, I become disgusted
towards the inevitable tragedy.
The third time, disgust is overwhelmed into painfulness.
But by the seventh time, this all becomes a farce comedy.
-Frederica Bernkastel
pretty much confirms resets (C) being the answer. However, I've been ignoring:
E) Transverable Resets. It is like C but there is also a connection of some kind in absolute time.
I had this kind of idea floating in my mind for a while, but couldn't get my head wrapped around it very easiliy. For beings with memory, any two-way interaction with other arcs would be, in a way, time travel... even if the absolute time in both arcs was the same. Basically, it leads to a paradox.
However, what if the being(s) that observe the multiple outcomes have a non-linear sense of time? It is a common idea in many religions that gods have this attribute. We also know that Rika, or more likely, something that spoke through Rika, predicted the future accurately. Could this be how she(it?) knew the future?
At this point, I believe it is probably C, but I won't rule E out just yet.
The main questions now are:
How are the resets activated? Do the resets trigger on their own, or does someone or something make a decision to activate a reset? It doesn't seem to be anyone's death, since we've seen everyone die at least once and the world still moves on its own after their death. Or are multiple scenarios "run" at the same time?
How are the resets related in time, both absolute (for the outside world) and subjective (for beings able to percieve each successive reset with memory)? We are able to see many years passed the events of 1983 at times. Does it take that long to reset, or (again) are multiple scenarios "run" at the same time?
Who has memory of previous resets? Does Rika? Or does only whatever speaks through her have memory? Or does everyone have a dormant memory as well?
At what point in time do the resets diverge from? The time of Tsumiboroshi-hen?
Anyway, just things to think about. I think I'm gonna try to convince my friends who have a modded PS2 to get the game, or maybe even get it for them. It is for PS2 right?
I was rewatching Meakashi-hen the other day, and I just realized I probably feel the worst for Shion. I can definitely understand why she went on her murdering rampage, and even how she had her mental unstable-ness beforehand. (
I mean, first of all, she was supposed to be killed at birth. For whatever reason she wasn't, but she still had to pretend she had no relation with the Sonozaki family or Hinamizawa. She basically didn't have anyone at all, except for her bodyguard (it didn't seem like she exactly missed anyone at boarding school)
Then she falls in love with a guy who didn't even know she existed until their last meeting. She finally has SOMEONE that could make her happy, but he kinda dies/mysteriously disappears.
Also, was it me, or did Shion have like no friends, except for Mion? Whenever she pretended to lock herself up in the prison cage, it was like nobody cared (except for Keichii, but that's because he still thought she was there)
It's like nobody even wanted a Shion to exist, which just makes that "I'm sorry for ever being born" line even better.
EDIT:: Ok, now that I've actually watched the episode...
I can see what the game players mean about Shion's death. It felt way too rushed, and for some reason it felt cheesey seeing her run down the stairs going "lol fooled u ghost mion", killing keichii (which could've been completely omitted since it added nothing more than "Praise me Satoshi!", coming back going "k done" and all of a sudden, slips and dies.
It would've been nice to hear a monlogue as she was getting back into her apartment, or even seeing her fall on the other roof like in the game and listen to her apologize for everything. Her death just seemed to quiet and too sudden.
Also, fix Shion's ladder scene already! I could understand Deen must've been rushing episode 7 and the other awkward facial contortion scenes so they couldn't fix them, but half the episode were reused scenes! Oh well, it didn't last as long as last time.
I did like the intenseness of the 1,000 I'm Sorry's scene though. I also liked how we realized Satoko was really the one who matured, and Shion was way too selfish to realize the one thing he wanted Shion to do when he was gone.
i did really like this episode, it's just that the last scene was too quick, especially for a character this show was centered around for 6 episodes.
C) Resets. Some people (or gods) have memory of the previous arcs. It may also be possible for normal people to remember as well (for example, Keiichi's memories at the end of Tatarigoroshi-hen of events we saw in Onikakushi-hen)
That option really does sound very likely. Has anyone else thought maybe this anime is following the "Donnie Darko" story line?Where the main character was the living receiver that needed to save the world by going throughout the events leading up to a disaster. And he had to go throughout the scenario's and see how he could stop it and what would happen to people *It really reminds me of Higurashi after the current arcs/tips* I sort of think Rika is the one that retains memories since she knew how and when she would die. And that her goal is to find whats the common link between what causes the disaster possibly?
Wanderer
2006-08-29, 11:33
Now that you mention it, was this covered in the anime? I don't remember hearing it. Did they skip that part?
Shion was actually born as Mion, and Mion was born as Shion.
Since "Mion" (that is, the Shion that we know) is the rightful heir to the Sonozaki family, she was favored over "Shion" (the Mion that we know) ever since they were little.
"Mion" and "Shion" disliked the different treatments they got: they're the same person, so why should one be treated different from the other?
That's why they began swapping identities so they could both enjoy the privileges that "Mion" has. Sometimes Mion would become Shion, and Shion would become Mion. In a way, both of them are Mion, and both of them are Shion.
However, one day, while "Shion" was pretending to be Mion, she was taken away and was given the demon tattoo which marked her as the next head of the Sonozaki family.
... Starting from that day, "Shion" lost her identity as Shion, and became Mion. "Mion" lost her identity as Mion, and became Shion.
That's why Mion has always felt bad towards Shion for stealing her identity, because it was Shion (the original Mion) who should've been chosen as the next head of the Sonozaki family, not her.
When Shion locked Mion up inside the underground jail cell, they finally reverted back to their original identities, hence the "onee" from Mion.
You can also see Shion referring to Mion as "Shion" in the final TIPs as well.
Now you know the true meanings behind Mion and Shion's coversation inside the library!
This is a shameful thing that the anime makers did here. I understand they left a lot of interesting things out, and have since been able to accept some misses but...
This revelation is the final answer to the mystery of the twins. How can you leave that out!? It was the whole point of Watanagashi-hen/Meakashi-hen!
I was quite disillusioned with HnNKn when the anime revealed that the total of the mystery was that Shion just took over. I am quite relieved (though not surprised) that there was more to it.
I've been trying to get some of my friends to watch the anime for a while, but I've changed my mind. Even though our Japanese is only so-so, I will only recommend the game or the manga now. As for myself, I'm so far in that I may as well finish it.
imac2much
2006-08-29, 19:08
Hm, did anyone else notice how Mion (the Mion that 'suicided' by slipping off the balcony) was wearing different clothes in Watanagashihen and Meakashihen? I'm not sure if this is a big deal but it stood out for me. Why would Mion (Shion that we know) dress as Mion even before deciding to go over to Keiichi's house? And in that case, wouldn't it seem weird that who the police believed to be Shion was wearing Mion's clothes when she suicided off the balcony? It makes more sense that they were fooled into thinking it was Shion in Watanagashihen since she was wearing Shion's clothes (from the brief glimpse we see at the end of ep8 before they cover her dead body). I dunno... is this just an oversight of the animators?
When an episode thread reaches 5 pages even before the fansub is out, you know that it is an controversial episode :cool: . As I haven't played the game I think this ep was good but not great. Didnt expect Shions death to be an accident and I didnt think that Shion really stabbed K1. This ep also strengthened my beliefs that its an logical reason to the events. Also when looking at the preview it seems there is a new character introduction in next ep, interesting :)
Poor Satoko. I thought her arms would have been fallen off after the first few slashes.
Anyways, same as above poster. Just watched the fansub and originally I gave it passing marks. It brought closure to those who haven't enjoyed the game yet. This episode was as we expected, tying up the loose ends that were posed in the Watanagashi arc.
However, after going over the discussion in this thread by the game playing otakus, I can understand now the true potential this episode had and how instead of the events that us viewers could have probably inferred from the earlier arcs, we could have gotten a dose of something with much more depth to it. I would really like to have enjoyed watching the Shion monologue scene that those of you who have played the game have mentioned.
The game definitely intrigues me, because it seems to bring about that sense of complete closure that is somewhat amiss for those who haven't played it. I admit that some explanations still confuse. However, it also seems that watching the anime after playing the game has only brought disappointment to the majority.
Sinestra
2006-08-29, 22:04
OMFG Once again Higurashi manages to freak the hell out. I knew this episode was going to be graphic but it was still hard to watch and yet at the same time i couldnt keep my eyes off the screen. Poor Satoko there is no way her arms would have held out that long i cant even fathom the pain she was in. At least Mion went quickly the stun gun knocked her out she she really did feel anything. All the other events with K seem to have played like they should have.
I was hoping to have gotten a glimpse at the bottom of the well and see just how many bodies were down there.
Do we know for sure who/what kill Satoshi? if so i think i might have missed it.
Not fimilar with the upcoming arc can someone give me a quick run down?
BakaOnna
2006-08-29, 23:13
After understanding the dialogue, this episode turned out all right for me. It's still a 7.5. Anyway, I like Sakoto a lot more after her speech. I feel really bad for the characters in this series. They always get all this bad crap thrown at them. It's too late to post any theories I have with the incidents and how they're related to the Sonozakis so I'll just leave that for another time.
Prinkster
2006-08-30, 01:24
As if it wasn't already secured in my spot as number one anime of all time, episode 21 has just further reinforced my notion that this anime freaking rocks. The mystery, the suspense, the questions...
But above all, the characters. I think only Elfen Lied can even hope to come close to even rivalling Higurashi's amazing characters and their development. Shion's development in this episode is nothing short of brilliance. Mion's characterization that occured a few episodes earlier...wow. What else can boast such dynamic, interesting characters?
LostBlue
2006-08-30, 04:08
Also when looking at the preview it seems there is a new character introduction in next ep, interesting :)
New? XD :rolleyes:
I would really like to have enjoyed watching the Shion monologue scene that those of you who have played the game have mentioned.
I may TL it as it was my favorite scene in this arc but it's 22+ pages of text so I probably will not post it anytime soon...
I admit that some explanations still confuse.
Ask anything that confused you about this chapter and I'll do my best to explain it to you as long as it's not a spoiler. (I've already slap on the wrist once in this chapter ^^; ). I think after the anime ends I'll make a summary of questions and their answers for each of first 3 arcs.
I was hoping to have gotten a glimpse at the bottom of the well and see just how many bodies were down there.
I've posted this in a few places but this is what exactly was found in the well.
The bodies of Sonozaki Oryou, Kimiyoshi Kiichirou, Furude Rika (there was a broken syringe in her pocket), Hojou Satoko and 3 partial skeletons that have been in the well for at least 10 years. The police believe if they dig deeper they may find more bodies. (Source Watanagashi Hen epilouge)
The key is they have to dig meaning anything under there will be older than the 3 partial skeletons. Since all three skeletons were in the well for over 10 years this pretty much confirms that the Sonozaki were not involved in any of the killings in the past 5 years.
Do we know for sure who/what kill Satoshi?
No. His status is still unconfirmed as "Onikakushi"
Not fimilar with the upcoming arc can someone give me a quick run down?
Answer Arc~ Chap 6 (last anime chapter)
This chapter is for Keiichi and Rena fans.
Rena... :(
What it answers: Most of Onikakushi Hen's mysteries and a few of Tatarigoroshi.
This chapter is NOT a near mirror image of a previous chapter like how close Meakashi and Watanagashi were. There are many similarities but this is an entirely new chapter, just one of many possibilities in the world of Higurashi.
Shion's development in this episode is nothing short of brilliance. Mion's characterization that occurred a few episodes earlier...wow. What else can boast such dynamic, interesting characters?
For Shion fans, re-watch Tatarigoroshi, especially after watching Tsumihoroboshi :)
rogueblade
2006-08-30, 04:29
「さぁいくらでも試してみろ!! 私は泣かない、涙も見せない!!! 北条沙都子がどれほどの 強さを持つか 、試してみろおおぉおおぉお!!!」
"Here, try all you want!! I won't cry, nor will I show any tears!!! You want to see just how strong Houjou Satoko is? Go ahead and tryyyy!!!"
The line was pretty much the final straw that broke Satoko free from the image of being a "crybaby". When she finally died, the gamers were given the impression that Satoko has went off to reunite with Satoshi because she has proven herself worthy.
Shion, on the other hand, was left behind, and will never be able to meet Satoshi again because she completely failed in keeping the one favor Satoshi asked of her before he disappeared: to take care of Satoko for him.
Uh....what?
But Satoko DOES say something along those lines - she says she's not going to cry because she wants Satoshi to see how independant she is. At least, in the fansubbed version she does...
And it also shows the scene where Shion remembers Satoshi's last wish.
Although this is comin from a non-gamer, i thought this episode was EXCELLENT. I wasn't really annoyed that they re-used some footage of the previous arcs, as without it the story wouldn't have flowed as easily as it did. The Satoko scenes, and the final twists at the end were VERY well done, imo.
Yes, we were treated to the usual "10,000 faces of Mion/Shion" - in fact
I was actually waiting for Shion to go "Mion, if you pull 1,000 face-putty faces, i'll let keiichi go." Man, that would have made this series, i swear.
To be honest, i don't see why so many people are complaining about this episode. If it bugs you that so much was left out (although, i'll concur that the doll scene and Mion/Shion thing were pretty important), why don't you just watch the anime as the anime and not compare it to the game?
Oh well - Big thank you to the WinD FS group for the episode, as usual.
hmmm.. I have to say to me aswell.., this was another great episode :)
However I can understand why some said they where dissapointed, specialy those who played the game.., after seeing the episode, then looking at some of the spoilers regarding parts which weren't covered.., we can definitly say alot was left out..
Still.., they did what they could, and thanks to the TIP's & other posts.., I don't think anyone who sees it and then reads all the additional information will feel as if watanagashi-hen / meakashi-hen lacked in relation to the other arcs.
Well finaly here we are at the conclusion of Meakashi-hen.., and where all the pieces to the events that toke place on Watanagashi-hen should fit.
Unfortunatly like I previously said.., after reading all the additional information & TIP's regarding the arc.., some aspects where cut off from the episode.., so unless we read them.. I recon we would not be able to get such a good view of the "entire picture" as if we just had seen the episode itself.
However it still gaved us alot of good moments, and those which I think its strong points rely on where definitly.. Satoko's scenes, Shion & Mion's last conversation and Shion's self-thoughts.
We have to hand it to Satoko.., even though we knew what was going to happen, I for one was not expecting her to be so strong near the end.
And much like rogueblade previously said.., her words did come somewhat along the line of " I won't cry, nor will I show any tears!!! ", but I belive the decided to emphazise the fact that she was doing this for her brother's love, as to show him that she was now strong rather then to show us she was proving to be strong by standing up to Shion.
Hence I belive the Satoko scene was done great.., I realy felt that the words she said had meening, and that she was trying to prove them true.
It also definitly helped as on how Shion cracked upon realising Satoshi's last wish.., which she had neglected up until so far.
Only after killing Satoko she came to realise this.., it was so perfect..
Up on next comes the last scenes of Shion & Mion before Shion throws Mion into the well.., altough I think according to what I read from those who played the game.., this was done diferently ?
However I belive this scene was of great importance because..
It revealed to us that Onibaba realy did pardon Shion.., and realy had no involment with Satoshi's dissapearence, as witness by Mion...; and judging by she acted.. I do belive that was the truth.
Which even makes Shion's story the more tragic..
And last.., as it turns out.. Shion's image of Satoshi-kun while facing the well on the last episode was just her wanting to belive she found him because after all Satoshi is NOT in the well.
Thanks to Lostblue for posting this ;) :
The bodies of Sonozaki Oryou, Kimiyoshi Kiichirou, Furude Rika (there was a broken syringe in her pocket), Hojou Satoko and 3 partial skeletons that have been in the well for at least 10 years. The police believe if they dig deeper they may find more bodies.
Which now takes me back to my first speculation that Satoshi might in fact be in the bottomless Marsh.., and Rena beeing the one who "onikakushi-ed" him away :D
Something I hope on Tsumiboroshi-hen I can prove right or rong.
On a last note now.., Shion's final scene.
Something that I think they changed aswell from the original game ?
However, this was definitly something that I would have found as if it had happened too fast, if I had not read the TIP's.., specialy.. this post :
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=656438&postcount=111
Still.. I remain faithful into saying it was one of the episodes strong points because.., well.. despite beeing the conclusion.., Shion's "I'm sorry" while looking up to the Moon and seeing Satoshi was simply.. amazing..
Her tone of voice... the feelings that where put into words.., I was left speechless upon so much perfection when I saw this..
In the end.. even not having played the game.., I felt compleat; and this was without a doubt.. a great arc.
Will Tsumiboroshi-hen top it ?
I can't wait to see :)
Shion : "I'm sorry, everyone."
More importantly, that stupid ambient music really pissed me off. Way to ruin your own dramatic scene, Deen.What track did the sound novel use at that point? Just for comparison purposes.
But yeah, while I thought this arc was pretty good it definitely had the potential to be a lot more, even before I knew what was missed out. The two things that seem to be bugging me most now are:
1. The Faces - Really, stop it. It's not scary, it just detaches me from the scene half the time because they're that ridiculous. I really doubt they're going to fix all of these for the DVD release, and they're the main reason I may stop collecting. DVD1's still on its way - slow Amazon JP shipping is sloooow.
2. The Music - I liked the soundtrack originally, but maybe because I've got something to compare it to now it just feels... there. All the variations of Main Theme are still hauntingly good, as is that track from Tatari where Keiichi falls off the bridge, but apart from that they don't seem to do much other than drum or go 'oooo' with a chorus half the time - Kawai's work on Fate was far better. Just because music was an absolutely integral part of the sound novels (because text, sound effects, music and the occasional image was all they had) doesn't mean it's suddenly not important in the anime. Doubt they'll do anything about this at this point though. I'd kill to hear a new version of 彷徨いの言葉は天に導かれ just once, but what're the odds? None. I love that track.
Oh well, other than that I'm still enjoying it. I can deal with everything they've omitted seen as I know they're short on time, but it bugs me when they do things like that (especially the faces) seen as that's not understandable time constraints - that's sloppiness.
Ask anything that confused you about this chapter and I'll do my best to explain it to you as long as it's not a spoiler. (I've already slap on the wrist once in this chapter ^^; ). I think after the anime ends I'll make a summary of questions and their answers for each of first 3 arcs.
More like fuzziness and how the arcs tie together. There is really enough speculation in this forum to make anyone's head spin. However, for the non-game playing viewer, the episodes in this arc do make much sense of the Watanagashi question arc, so I'm somewhat satisfied here.
But okay, let me take you up on your offer and ask you this one that has been somewhat bothering me. :)
We see a lot of the Watanagashi arc explained well in this answer arc, but one thing was left out. At the very end of the arc in episode 8 after Keiichi was stabbed by Shion and hospitalized, was it Mion then who showed up in his ward? I've read that Keiichi could've been hallucinating this part, but I am not convinced. We know that Shion is dead, but Mion could've survived the fall into the well (who knows how many body broke her fall). So if I assume that it was Mion, I then have to ask, why would she be performing such a barbarous act?
More like fuzziness and how the arcs tie together. There is really enough speculation in this forum to make anyone's head spin. However, for the non-game playing viewer, the episodes in this arc do make much sense of the Watanagashi question arc, so I'm somewhat satisfied here.
But okay, let me take you up on your offer and ask you this one that has been somewhat bothering me. :)
We see a lot of the Watanagashi arc explained well in this answer arc, but one thing was left out. At the very end of the arc in episode 8 after Keiichi was stabbed by Shion and hospitalized, was it Mion then who showed up in his ward? I've read that Keiichi could've been hallucinating this part, but I am not convinced. We know that Shion is dead, but Mion could've survived the fall into the well (who knows how many body broke her fall). So if I assume that it was Mion, I then have to ask, why would she be performing such a barbarous act?
Read TIPS #113 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=656522&postcount=113)
But above all, the characters. I think only Elfen Lied can even hope to come close to even rivalling Higurashi's amazing characters and their development.
Two words - watch Monster. ;) Serioulsy, I like the Higurashi characters and their development but they have gaps in motivation because the anime is so rushed compared to the game. For instance K1 getting almost out of the blue so connected to Satoko that he decided to kill her unkle. Or Shion's attack on Satoko in the school seemed to come almost from nowhere while apparently there was a lot more to that in the game.
Since all three skeletons were in the well for over 10 years this pretty much confirms that the Sonozaki were not involved in any of the killings in the past 5 years.
I also think they were not involved (mostly because Shion thought they were and she was wrong about so many things) but you know, they are not obliged to put all the bodies in that well after all.
And last.., as it turns out.. Shion's image of Satoshi-kun while facing the well on the last episode was just her wanting to belive she found him because after all Satoshi is NOT in the well.
What kind of proof is that? After all, who is to say that ghosts can't travel far from the place where the dead body is? But let's not get into the occult, I firmly believe in a natural explanation of the mystery.
New? XD :rolleyes:
Well I dont remember her face anywhere but im pretty tired right now so I might be fogetting someone :heh:
sagematt
2006-08-30, 09:06
Heyyyyy I have seen that star (the one she has on the hip) before...
*takes a look at Tatarigoroshi-hen* OH SHI-!
*Moves out to ep 22 discussion*
What kind of proof is that? After all, who is to say that ghosts can't travel far from the place where the dead body is? But let's not get into the occult, I firmly believe in a natural explanation of the mystery.
Currently the specific words where not given to us.., however like I said in the first place.., the last scenes between Mion and Shion came to show us that the Sonozaki realy didn't have any involment to do with Satoshi's dissapearence.
It revealed to us that Onibaba realy did pardon Shion.., and realy had no involment with Satoshi's dissapearence, as witness by Mion...; and judging by she acted.. I do belive that was the truth.
Which even makes Shion's story the more tragic..
I say this because.. well much like in my quote.., I belive Mion was telling the truth when she now spoke with Shion.., her words and atitudes where what convinced at first.., however we are also given a image as a flashback of Mion facing Onibaba on the matter, and Onibaba smilling as she had acepted Shion's love for Satoshi.
And in fact.., Mion herself said that Onibaba looked into the matter to see if anyone who was part of the "curse ring" had anything to do with it..
Unfortunatly nor Onibaba, nor anyone found out anything..
Also.., after a while, this post I read on the TIP's jumps into my head and I start thinking...
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=657219&postcount=116
What if in fact the reason why Onibaba-sama herself gotten her nails pulled once as kejime too was due to that she also loved someone whom she was not suposed too.
Which would explain why she and Akane became very close (as mencioned on that post) despite the disinheritance; and why she now also acepted Shion's love with Satoshi.
However this last part is just purely my speculation :)
But still, for a more solid information, I belive LostBlue covered that :)
I've posted this in a few places but this is what exactly was found in the well.
The bodies of Sonozaki Oryou, Kimiyoshi Kiichirou, Furude Rika (there was a broken syringe in her pocket), Hojou Satoko and 3 partial skeletons that have been in the well for at least 10 years. The police believe if they dig deeper they may find more bodies. (Source Watanagashi Hen epilouge)
Hence.., if Satoshi had been thrown into the well 1 year ago.., the police would have still been able to identify him, or partialy anyway..
Aside from Shion's recent victims.., no other bodies except partial skeletons that had been there for over 10 years where found.
Which.., is like I again previously said.., is what leads me now to go back to my first speculation that Satoshi might in fact be..In the Hinamizawa Marsh.., and possibily.. Rena is the cause why he ended up there :p
- hopefully Tsumiboroshi-hen will then prove this right or rong.
Shion's vision of Satoshi ended up beeing nothing more then in her own mind.., with her desire to belive she had found him..
Allas.. she could not find any other explination to what had happened to him.., thus beliving this possibility so blindly until the end..
Which to even Mion's last words served of nothing..
Deathkillz
2006-08-30, 11:08
oh my days >.<
one of the most gory ep so far? poor poor satoko :( but she did have a lot of guts right to the bitter end...shion has really lost it...
the ending explained everything...
so in the end all was shion's doing...and everyone dies...hmm so mion was innocent all along O.o
satoshi was forgiven but still disappeared...could it be rika's doing cause i really dnt think that mion would be lying at thats state and this makes shion's revernge come crashing down on her head...
even tho shion was completely nuts her love for satoshi was really touching...right until she died -.-
but the funny is that k1 died from a heart attack...hes been driven nuts too...and i wouldnt blame him :heh:
Watching episode 21 really does put a lot of pieces together, but still - it makes you the whole Satoshi situation just grow larger & larger. If we don't find out anything about him.. then it looks like i'll be playing the game for more then just wanting to hear the music reason.
LostBlue
2006-08-30, 13:26
I was actually waiting for Shion to go "Mion, if you pull 1,000 face-putty faces, i'll let keiichi go." Man, that would have made this series, i swear.
Not really important, but one thing that did disappoint me is Mion stop apologizing in the anime. In the game, she continued until Shion walked up to her and said "You could stop. You have no more reason to apologize now."
"WAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!"
If I remember right, this is also the pt where Shion takes back her name as Mion.
Pure speculation on my part, but besides "Mion" being the superior one, it's "Shion" who forgot Satoshi's wish, so if she was "Mion," she was right with her actions. That wasn't said in the game (and again this is my speculation), but it's one of the things that struck me to why she desperately wanted to all the sudden be "Mion" at the end.
Matt Soulblade
2006-08-30, 15:01
Ok this was GOOD :)
The rika assesination was really shocking to me, even more knowing that Mion was there looking everything and saying gomen nasai. Poor Satoko, she really endured until the end.
But still, what happened to K1 in the hospital? Damn my head is going to blow.
Ok this was GOOD :)
The rika assesination was really shocking to me, even more knowing that Mion was there looking everything and saying gomen nasai. Poor Satoko, she really endured until the end.
But still, what happened to K1 in the hospital? Damn my head is going to blow.
Read TIPS #113 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=656522&postcount=113)
White Manju Bun
2006-08-30, 18:24
oh man...
Why did the have to show scary "Mion" back from epi 7 I think it was....I totally forgot she went all nuts with the ladder. Scared me again this time too! I think Shion scares in the most now, in the beginning after the first arc is was Rena with her creepy "gomen nasi" chanting, but now Shion offically gives me nightmares XD
The mistery might not be solved to me, but I believe the "Gomen nasai"s are somewhat important, aren't they?
In Onikakushi, they gave a goodd emphasys on Rena's.
Now in Meakashi, Mion apologized too.
And in Tatarigoroshi, it was Satoko's time.
And in all those chapters, Keiichi/Shion [both who the apologies where directed] died only after those events.
So, is there anything up with it?
Well I dont remember her face anywhere but im pretty tired right now so I might be fogetting someone :heh:
The person who appears in episode 21's preview looks like the school teacher.
Spastic_Hobo
2006-08-30, 19:16
So I never played the games, but now I really want to. This arc ending left a terrible taste in my mouth. It feels like the story is being half told, and from what I've read of posts from the game players, that seems to be the case.
It really pisses me off because I had high hopes for the anime in the beginning. But no I feel like it's just getting a half-assed treatment and giving the story no justice. I dunno if I'm gonna like how they end this final arc.
One example why the manga is a much better portrayal of the original game than the anime:
Higurashi no Naku Koro ni - Watanagashi-hen Vol. 2 pp. 240-241
Copyright: Square Enix, Ryukishi07, Houjou Yutori
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/kj1980/wata_241.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/kj1980/wata_240.jpg
1. Dramatic scene (in this case, the doll) [check]
2. No weird kao-gei [check]
3. More emphasis on Kei-chan's inner monologues [check]
Shion was actually born as Mion, and Mion was born as Shion.
Since "Mion" (that is, the Shion that we know) is the rightful heir to the Sonozaki family, she was favored over "Shion" (the Mion that we know) ever since they were little.
"Mion" and "Shion" disliked the different treatments they got: they're the same person, so why should one be treated different from the other?
That's why they began swapping identities so they could both enjoy the privileges that "Mion" has. Sometimes Mion would become Shion, and Shion would become Mion. In a way, both of them are Mion, and both of them are Shion.
However, one day, while "Shion" was pretending to be Mion, she was taken away and was given the demon tattoo which marked her as the next head of the Sonozaki family.
... Starting from that day, "Shion" lost her identity as Shion, and became Mion. "Mion" lost her identity as Mion, and became Shion.
That's why Mion has always felt bad towards Shion for stealing her identity, because it was Shion (the original Mion) who should've been chosen as the next head of the Sonozaki family, not her.
When Shion locked Mion up inside the underground jail cell, they finally reverted back to their original identities, hence the "onee" from Mion.
You can also see Shion referring to Mion as "Shion" in the final TIPs as well.
Now you know the true meanings behind Mion and Shion's coversation inside the library!
ROFL..... I thought as much. At least it's now explained! :D
BakaOnna
2006-08-30, 21:55
One example why the manga is a much better portrayal of the original game than the anime:
Higurashi no Naku Koro ni - Watanagashi-hen Vol. 2 pp. 240-241
Copyright: Square Enix, Ryukishi07, Houjou Yutori
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/kj1980/wata_241.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/kj1980/wata_240.jpg
1. Dramatic scene (in this case, the doll) [check]
2. No weird kao-gei [check]
3. More emphasis on Kei-chan's inner monologues [check]
Someone posted that back in the ep. 8 discussion thread. I really wished they'd left that doll scene. It's so sad, and it would've made so much more sense on why the doll affected Shion so much. :mad:
Is it just me or something feels suspicious?
Rena became my number one most suspicious character........ Rena was probably the one that killed satoshi..... And the other thing is where's the doctor, and two guys in the minivan and what happened to the detective( the one that met rika)?
GundamZZ
2006-08-31, 01:25
Not that.
The plot already hint that Rena, Keiichi, Sion and Satoshi have one thing in common. They all exeperinced hallucination, and they sense they are being followed. It doesn't seem the anime will answer it.
I'm glad the PS2 has new ending. If the anime is going to end, I hope the storyline is not going to be like another Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure.
Symmetry
2006-08-31, 21:43
mmm.. lets see then..
On Onikakushi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Missing.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Unknown.
Furude Rika - Status : Unknown.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Keiichi.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Keiichi.
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide, death caused to loss of blood / resembles the same death sympthoms as Tomitake Jirou.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Unknown.
*Gas Disaster : Unknown*
On Watanagashi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Dead.
Strangled to death in the mountains of Gifu Prefecture. Corpse was later burned.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from multiple pierce wounds over the entire body.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from a pierce wound in the throat area, death very similar to that of Tomitake Jirou's.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: fell from the vertical escape tunnel.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Alive
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Passed away at the hospital. Cause of death: chronic and acute heart failure.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Died by falling off the veranda from her hideout.
*Gas Disaster : did NOT happen*
On Tatarigoroshi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Dead.
Strangled to death in the mountains of Gifu Prefecture. Corpse was later burned.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Missing.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Murdered on the shrine compounds?
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Great Hinamizawa Disaster.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Dead.
Great Hinamizawa Disaster.
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Attempted suicide at local hospital on 1983.08.29
Fell under a severe fever and passed away two days later on November 30, 1983.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Dead.
Committed suicide at local hospital.
*Gas Disaster : Happens*
On Himatsubushi-hen :
No specific details on how any of the events on 1983 toke place where given to us.
None except one.
Furude Rika - "this day, on June 1983.. or perhaps a few days after... I will be killed."
Hence we conclude.. Status : Dead.
Possibly murdered.
All the previous events from 1979 to 1982 followed the same path through all the arcs.
*Gas Disaster : Happens*
On Meakashi-hen :
Tomitake Jirou - Status : Dead.
Possible suicide / injected with an unknown drug that cause him to carve his fingers into his throat.
Takano Miyo - Status : Dead.
Strangled to death in the mountains of Gifu Prefecture. Corpse was later burned.
Houjo Satoko - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from multiple pierce wounds over the entire body.
Furude Rika - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Cause of death: hemorrhagic shock from a pierce wound in the throat area, death very similar to that of Tomitake Jirou's.
Sonozaki Mion - Status : Dead.
Murdered by Sonozaki Shion.
Cause of death: fell from the vertical escape tunnel.
Ryuguu Rena - Status : Alive
Maebara Keiichi - Status : Dead.
Passed away at the hospital. Cause of death: chronic and acute heart failure.
Sonozaki Shion - Status : Dead.
Suicide.
Died by falling off the veranda from her hideout.
*Gas Disaster : did NOT happen*
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that in one of the arcs the found out that the body they thought was Takano had to actually be someone else, since it was killed *before* the festival. I think, since there was a burned corpse found in every scenario, that it was equally not her in every scenario and that she doesn't actually die in any of them. All of which makes me really, really suspicious of her even forgetting about when she picked up Keichi in Tatarigorashi.
What about the swamp gas? Thats a hard one. The "Rika's disembowlment angers Oyashiro-sama" theory does have a certain appeal, but I've decided I'm going to go for rational explanations until I'm absolutly forced to fall back on the supernatural.
One theory is that in any scenario where they did up a mysterious pipe in the middle of the woods it will emit a could of toxic gas and kill everyone, but I don't see any reason to believe that's what happened in Himatsubushi.
So what I'm left with is that either someone was killed in Tatarigorashi but not in Watanagashi - like the doctor - who was doing something to prevent the disaster or someone was killed in Watanagashi but not in Tatarigorashi - like Onibaba - who somehow caused the disaster. Hmmm...
Symmetry
2006-08-31, 21:51
It occurs to me it might have something to do with the weather too. I seem to recall from Tatarigoroshi and one of the Himatsubushi TIPS that there had been a long spell of dryness followed by sudden rain before the poison gas.
GundamZZ
2006-09-01, 00:23
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that in one of the arcs the found out that the body they thought was Takano had to actually be someone else, since it was killed *before* the festival. I think, since there was a burned corpse found in every scenario, that it was equally not her in every scenario and that she doesn't actually die in any of them. All of which makes me really, really suspicious of her even forgetting about when she picked up Keichi in Tatarigorashi.
Correct
What about the swamp gas? Thats a hard one. The "Rika's disembowlment angers Oyashiro-sama" theory does have a certain appeal, but I've decided I'm going to go for rational explanations until I'm absolutly forced to fall back on the supernatural.
No survivors actually can testify that gas poisoning actually happened. The access to the village is blocked, though Rika's death is the trigger for all these different arcs.
So what I'm left with is that either someone was killed in Tatarigorashi but not in Watanagashi - like the doctor - who was doing something to prevent the disaster or someone was killed in Watanagashi but not in Tatarigorashi - like Onibaba - who somehow caused the disaster. Hmmm...
The director doesn't know his superior's plan, though he's involved with someone's disappearance.
Wanderer
2006-09-01, 02:48
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that in one of the arcs the found out that the body they thought was Takano had to actually be someone else, since it was killed *before* the festival. I think, since there was a burned corpse found in every scenario, that it was equally not her in every scenario and that she doesn't actually die in any of them. All of which makes me really, really suspicious of her even forgetting about when she picked up Keichi in Tatarigorashi.
You are right that at the end of Watanagashi-hen Ooishi said that the body they thought was Takano had actually been dead before the festival. However, you are wrong about finding a burnt corpse in every scenario. Takano only went missing in Onikakushi-hen, as you own list says.
What about the swamp gas? Thats a hard one. The "Rika's disembowlment angers Oyashiro-sama" theory does have a certain appeal, but I've decided I'm going to go for rational explanations until I'm absolutly forced to fall back on the supernatural.
One theory is that in any scenario where they did up a mysterious pipe in the middle of the woods it will emit a could of toxic gas and kill everyone, but I don't see any reason to believe that's what happened in Himatsubushi.
So what I'm left with is that either someone was killed in Tatarigorashi but not in Watanagashi - like the doctor - who was doing something to prevent the disaster or someone was killed in Watanagashi but not in Tatarigorashi - like Onibaba - who somehow caused the disaster. Hmmm...
I lean towards the supernatural explanation. There does seem to be a correlation with Rika's disembowlment and the swamp gas event. I also think her suicide in Meakashi-hen/Watanagashi-hen may have something to do with why it didn't happen in those arcs.
Whoa! Just realized that in Himatsubushi-hen Ooishi said that Rika was drugged before she was brought to the temple and Watanagashi'ed! Dang, this is a huge connection! Was I the first to notice? It fits so well... Once Rika was drugged in Meakashi-hen, she somehow knew or thought (from memory of other arcs?) that the direction of the scenario was going towards her being Watanagashi'ed and Hinamizawa being gassed. She didn't fear the pain of torture- she chose suicide as the only way to protect everyone.
It occurs to me it might have something to do with the weather too. I seem to recall from Tatarigoroshi and one of the Himatsubushi TIPS that there had been a long spell of dryness followed by sudden rain before the poison gas.
The whether is definately an important hint. I found the timing of the storm and rain in episode 3 of Tatarigoroshi-hen to be particularly suspicious.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that in one of the arcs the found out that the body they thought was Takano had to actually be someone else, since it was killed *before* the festival.
This was a good observation indeed, however the body was identified as beeing that of Takano Miyo-san.
*Taken from episode 8*
(20:55 - 21:19)
Oishi : " Do you remember how Takano Miyo-san died ? "
Keiichi : " Huh ? Yeah... I heard she was burned dead. "
Oishi : " After the autopsy, it seems that the body was found 24 hours after she died.
In other words, on the night you guys sneaked into the festival storehouse...
Takano-san was already dead. "
Also.., on the TIPS #113 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=656522&postcount=113) it lists Takano-san as beeing part of the death list.., strangled to death and later burned.
It seems however.., 24 hours before the set time she died :eyespin:
On Onikakushi-hen Takano-san's status is " Missing ", currently no further information is given to us regarding it.
Wanderer
2006-09-01, 08:57
This was a good observation indeed, however the body was identified as beeing that of Takano Miyo-san.
Indeed. Although there are many people who believe that Takano may have altered her dental records to make it look like someone else's burnt body is hers.
Another thing, I seem to remember one of the game players saying that in the game when K1 cursed Takano to die on that fateful night in Tatarigoroshi-hen that he specifically cursed her to burn. (Correct me if I am wrong of course)
The body was not Takano's, I think. Why would anyone want to burn the body if it was hers? And how do you explain her being "a walking dead" if we assume she did not fake her death? Don't tell me Oyashiro-sama cannot change the state of a dead body to fool the police that Takano had died later. :)
And she is being portrayed as much more important "player" in the mystery, I don't think her role is that of a mere victim. But even if she was indeed killed the question is why.
Indeed. Although there are many people who believe that Takano may have altered her dental records to make it look like someone else's burnt body is hers.
This is a great possibility yes.., it would definitly explain why the body they found had been dead 24 hours prior to when (possibily) the real Takano Miyon should have been discovered.
And also why she was still alive during the festival night ;)
However.., the current information we are given too.., just states that the burned body they found, despite the 24 hour death diference, was identified as that of beeing Takano Miyo-san's.., hence.. we can currently only speculate if she was in fact dead.., or that she found a scapegoat to ilude everyone into thinking she died.
But just on a personal note.., yes.. :p , I too feel that its very possible for her to have faked her death.
Specialy since her status on Onikakushi-hen is " missing ".
So the possibility, this despite beeing diferent arcs.., they always end up complementing each other.., hence.., she on Onikakushi-hen might not have required to use the scapegoat; or as far as we know.. ^^
Another thing, I seem to remember one of the game players saying that in the game when K1 cursed Takano to die on that fateful night in Tatarigoroshi-hen that he specifically cursed her to burn. (Correct me if I am wrong of course)
*From episode 12*
(4:17 - 4:24)
Keiichi : " If she saw me, then I should have killed her. "
" Shit... "
" Go die by Oyashiro-sama's curse! "
If there are any references to Keiichi having wished Takano to die burned.., I don't belive we saw them in the Anime..
Either way.., most of what I say are my speculations and things taken from the episodes so.., only someone who has played the game can answer you properly :)
Wanderer
2006-09-01, 12:50
There's also the idea that she is both a villian and a victim. It has happned before with the missing killer from the damn manager murderer and with Satoshi and maybe even with K1 in Tatarigoroshi-hen.
Anyway, what if Takano actually unwillingly disappears in all three arcs? It is just that in Tatarigoroshi-hen and Watanagashi-hen she disappears after setting up the double. Sure, this idea is more or less just a guess, but it would lock Tomitake and Takano as the pair of set victims for 1983... One disappears and one dies.
Just an idea. Really, we know so very little about Takano's role in things.
LostBlue
2006-09-01, 13:02
Another thing, I seem to remember one of the game players saying that in the game when K1 cursed Takano to die on that fateful night in Tatarigoroshi-hen that he specifically cursed her to burn. (Correct me if I am wrong of course)
Yes, that is correct.
Tatarigoroshi Hen (the Sound Novels)
Keiichi's Wish list
Kill Hojou Teppei (asks Mion) - the next day Keiichi goes off and kills him
Burn in hell Takano - Takano's corpse was found burnt the next day
Go away Oishi - Oishi and his partner Kuma went missing during their investigation the following day ( TIP 62 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=597448&postcount=62) )
Die Dr. Irie - Dr. Irie commits suicide by overdosing the following day
This village should disappear - Gas Disaster happens the following day with Keiichi being the only survivor regardless of the fact that it is believed that he was unconscious at origin of the gasses. Keiichi was unconscious for a day and a half ( See TIP 67 ).
Interviewer should drown - goes missing years later when his boat capsizes. ( TIP 67 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=604889&postcount=67) )
Victim List TIP 66 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=603660&postcount=66)
FubaredByAnime
2006-09-03, 21:39
After finishing up this arc, my investigative juices started flowing again, so here are some of my thoughts:
- Rika in Himatsubushi-hen specifically states that murders will be committed in the next few years.
- If what LostBlue is correct and the Sonozaki's do not have any power, then someone else is responsible for the murders IF we believe Rika.
- It's hinted in the TIPS that during Himatsubushi-hen, Oryou Sonozaki was aware of the kidnapping. She had Mion make a phone call. At some point afterwards in the anime, Oishi received the wallet hinting to the location of the child. It's possible that Oryou was involved with the police tip. But if so, it would not make sense for a leader of a group to betray her own people. Which means that:
1) There's another group involved behind the scenes.
2) The Sonozaki's are aware of their existence, but don't mind muddling in their affairs.
3) Oishi acknowledges their abilities as trained professionals.
My thoughts: It's either another group in the Gosanke, most likely the Kimiyoshi's who wield a hidden power behind the Sonozaki's or some weird government organization probably hiding some secret in Hinamizawa.
Now I was about to write reasons describing each possibilities, for and against, but after weighing the options, I've decided to go for the government. I just like those X-Files stories (before they jumped the shark and decided Mulder and Scully making out was more important then stopping the government).
And for those of you who don't believe that there's a group of people behind this, then let me ask: Who were those guys in bonked Keichi on the head in Onikakushi-hen?
But if so, it would not make sense for a leader of a group to betray her own people.
Correct me if I am wrong but hadn't the deal with the minister already been struck? I guess the police was supposed to find the kid but with the kidnappers already gone. But the info from Irie led to the encounter between the kidnappers and the police. Furthermore, assuming the Sonozakis are not involved in the murders that does not mean thay have no power and influence at all. If there is some group of government agents wouldn't they be able to get rid of the Sonozakis? If the Sonozakis are their smokescreen that still doesn't explain leaking out secrets to them (like the kidnapping of the kid). And a government agency kidnapping the child of a government official doesn't sound too bloody likely except in cheap thrillers, IMO. If they wanted the dam buiding to be halted wouldn't they do it by turning to whoever in power is responisble for this secret group's existence and tell him to pull some strings in Tokyo?
Anyway, "the government did it" theory is a bit too trivial for my taste, so I irrationally deny it. :heh:
And for those of you who don't believe that there's a group of people behind this, then let me ask: Who were those guys in bonked Keichi on the head in Onikakushi-hen?
Products of his imagination. Or people hunting a dangerous lunatic, namely Keiichi.
chrno_the_sinner
2006-09-04, 11:49
Using the TIPS, it's relatively easy to say that the Sonozaki family organized the kidnapping. When the dam project was put on indefinite hiatus in Himatubushi, Oryou decided it was time for the child to be "found". Remember, the Sonozaki family also somewhat doubles as a yakuza organization.
As for the men who knocked out Keiichi, I think it's most likely Sonozaki goons, because the same outfits were worn by the men who kidnapped the kid in the beginning of Himatsubushi.
GundamZZ
2006-09-04, 14:55
Correct me if I am wrong but hadn't the deal with the minister already been struck? I guess the police was supposed to find the kid but with the kidnappers already gone. But the info from Irie led to the encounter between the kidnappers and the police.
Let's say the minister himself is not innocent, either. He knows something about the village, and exposing it will bring his downfall.
Furthermore, assuming the Sonozakis are not involved in the murders that does not mean thay have no power and influence at all. If there is some group of government agents wouldn't they be able to get rid of the Sonozakis? If the Sonozakis are their smokescreen that still doesn't explain leaking out secrets to them (like the kidnapping of the kid).
Didn't Mion tell Sion that the villagers take any help? The main concern of villagers are to save their village. They don't care who's behind it.
If they wanted the dam buiding to be halted wouldn't they do it by turning to whoever in power is responisble for this secret group's existence and tell him to pull some strings in Tokyo?
Not all interest groups are equal.
It can also be the loophole of the story. Another loophole is Rika's "prophecy". She can "remember" the future yet she she can't avoid it. It's the example of 御都合主義
LostBlue
2006-09-04, 15:21
Using the TIPS, it's relatively easy to say that the Sonozaki family organized the kidnapping. When the dam project was put on indefinite hiatus in Himatubushi, Oryou decided it was time for the child to be "found". Remember, the Sonozaki family also somewhat doubles as a yakuza organization.
As for the men who knocked out Keiichi, I think it's most likely Sonozaki goons, because the same outfits were worn by the men who kidnapped the kid in the beginning of Himatsubushi.
Looks at the TIPS and then back at POST 83 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=660012&postcount=83)
Let's say the minister himself is not innocent, either. He knows something about the village, and exposing it will bring his downfall.
Do you know that or you are just guessing? Anyway, if that's true why was the kid kidnapped in the first place if simple blackmail would do?
The main concern of villagers are to save their village. They don't care who's behind it.
Sure, but that does not really explain Onibaba knowing about the kidnapped child. Secret government group or agency or whatever doesn't seem to me like something Oryou would trust and vice versa. Common goal is a good unifying factort but to convince Oryou about ihe existence of this goal wouldn't these hyphotetical government people spill the beans about the secret they are trying to protect?
GundamZZ
2006-09-04, 21:28
They are all been decided. :)
The story's weakness.
I've tried to read most of the posts in this thread to avoid posting the same things others did, so I apologize if I missed some stuff...
I know some people have been babbling about Satoshi being alive or not..... but wasn't it him at the beginning of the Tatarigoroshi chapter (episode 9) some old people found in the water? It looked like him to me.
I have a lot of other things to ask, but they're about other chapters so I guess it'll be irrelevant to this thread (Actually, I'm planning to play the 'game', I'm just waiting until the tv series ends so it won't spoil too much for me. So I guess it's true they're skipping the last two chapters? And I heard everything was explained in the Minagoroshi chapter.... o_o;;; Oh well... I'll have to be patient for another month now).
I've tried to read most of the posts in this thread to avoid posting the same things others did, so I apologize if I missed some stuff...
I know some people have been babbling about Satoshi being alive or not..... but wasn't it him at the beginning of the Tatarigoroshi chapter (episode 9) some old people found in the water? It looked like him to me.
I have a lot of other things to ask, but they're about other chapters so I guess it'll be irrelevant to this thread (Actually, I'm planning to play the 'game', I'm just waiting until the tv series ends so it won't spoil too much for me. So I guess it's true they're skipping the last two chapters? And I heard everything was explained in the Minagoroshi chapter.... o_o;;; Oh well... I'll have to be patient for another month now).
People should really read the TIPS before they ask the same questions over and over again.
Your answer: TIPS #50 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=577156&postcount=50) and TIPS #51 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=580005&postcount=51)
Eric the Grey
2006-09-05, 04:12
Sigh, as of right now, my internal thoughts for Higurashi right now are:
Game>Drama CD>Manga>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unscalable wall>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anime
Waitaminutethere! I thought the "game" and "Drama CD" were one and the same. Was this information wrong?
:cool: Eric hte Grey
Waitaminutethere! I thought the "game" and "Drama CD" were one and the same. Was this information wrong?
:cool: Eric hte Grey
English wikipedia article for Higurashi no Naku Koroni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higurashi_no_Naku_Koro_ni#Drama_CDs)
Official website for the dramaCDs (http://higurashi-cd.com/)
Seems to me many people don't know what a drama CD is. I'll guess that'll be my new terminology to post on the Japanese Otaku Lingo (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=667595&postcount=150) thread.
Graetings everybody I'm new here . I have been wathing Higurashi since the bigining . I discoverd this Forum after Onikakushi and by now I consider watching a new part of the story as completed after:
a) Wathing subed episode
b) Reading Tips
c) Reading Sushi-Y post obout that episode
By then I usually understand as much of that specific part of the show as non-game player can.
I didn't post here so far because I felt that my English isn't good enough for that,
but now threre is one thing that bothers so much that I will take a risk[ I oplogise in advance for masteakes]. In the episode 19 Mion is asked by Shion whether she thinks that the Sonozaki family is involved in the kilings ,Mion say's she doesn't know for sure because onibaba didn't tell her anything but then and on few other occasions she agrees that such posibility exists. Then what obout her confession in episode 21 before ? She semmed positive that Sonozaki's aren't involved in the curse. Why didn't she said so from the bigining? , Why was she stateing somthing else earlier . Or was she only refering to Satoshi incident ? If she did why everybody in the Forum seem to consider Sonozaki's as proven innocent the fact they didn't killed Satoshi didn't change anything they can be still guilty of other murder's . Kei may have not become a target only because Onibaba was killed or for some other reason
LostBlue
2006-09-06, 11:59
Mion probably originally thought Shion had hard evidence that Satoshi was really killed by the Sonozaki Family. If the Sonozaki family did kill Satoshi, he would be in the well. Shion's sudden attack scared and confused Mion. Mion began doubting herself about Oryou's words as Mion also originally thought Onibaba order the killing of Satoshi. As the days progressed Mion began to realize that this was all misunderstanding because of the Bluff. Mion isn't a very strong person. She does doubt herself a lot under that guise of being the Leader. ^^
herculysse
2006-12-29, 07:59
I've some reasons to think I know why ep21's last is such as,
and why Meakashi-hen is *great*.:D
「間に合ったー！」
("I'd done in TIME!")
in Watanagashi-hen.
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