Higurashi Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

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kj1980

2006-09-19, 17:38

Welcome to the discussion thread for Higurashi no Naku Koroni, Episode 25.

Thread Guidelines
No telling or asking for RAWs.
Try to keep spoilers from the Game or Manga out of the anime thread. If you need to in reply to someone with a reference to the Game / Manga, either PM them or use Spoiler tags (see example below).
Discuss your expectations of the episode if not aired.
Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Try to keep the discussion on topic and future episode spoilers out of the thread whenever possible.

Spoiler Tag Usage

Using Spoiler Tags is easy. Using this...

Don't forget to use the spoiler title

....will get you this...

Don't forget to use the spoiler title

ADDITIONAL RULES FOR Higurashi no Naku Koroni
Make sure you read the English wikipedia article for Higurashi no Naku Koroni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higurashi_no_Naku_Koro_ni) before you ask questions!!!

Feel free to utilize the info on the TIPS section (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31732) as a complement to this series.

Feel free to share your theories and speculations. In fact, I encourage you to do so as this is what makes this series interesting.

I am designating Sushi-Y and Freakman to lead the discussion in the correct path without spoilers as they have played the game in advance. I put confidence in them that they will recognize a member has spilled the beans too far if any other members has begun to play the game.

SPOILERS FAR ADVANCED THAN THE CURRENT AIRED ANIME EPISODE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. THIS INCLUDES THOSE IN SPOILER TAGS!!!. People tend to peek at spoiler tags; especially when they do not know such tag is meant for the episode, only to find it spilling the beans too far advanced in the game storyline.

paTKany

2006-09-19, 18:01

I should give a twelve out of ten on this episode's vote.

Keiichi's monologue in the school yard make me chill for over a minute.

This was a helluva great episode!http://forums.animesuki.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

MarthX

2006-09-19, 18:05

One episode left. I'm sad to see it end.

Shiosai

2006-09-19, 18:08

Ok it all makes sense now:
http://students.washington.edu/vegita/spoiler.gif
That whole thing with K1 suddenly remembering everything then hugging Mion;

I think I shed a tear or two.

ShadowRift

2006-09-19, 18:21

Wow, everything's coming together...

It's a shame it won't be explained why K1 can recall Onikakushi though.

I have to say though... while understandable, K1 breaks down into tears a lot in this ep...

Sushi-Y

2006-09-19, 19:23

Wow... I'm shocked.

For once, they got everything right. Sure, a pile of details are missing, but this epsiode actually managed to make itself look like a proper adaptation of the game story.

For many people, this episode should be the most revealing yet, and full of impacts.

They did skip 3 big events from the story, one of which would've helped clear up the whole thing better, the other is a foreshadowing of the next scenario, and the last one is past talk. But none of them are really necessary.
- Keiichi's talk with Mion behind the school the day after the phone talk with Rena. This helped save Keiichi from becoming just like Rena. But I guess there's already more than enough contents in this episode that proved Takano's scrapbooks to be "a joke".

- Rika's visit at Rena's hideout after the 2 cops left the junkyard. It's pretty much all a huge foreshadowing to Minagoroshi-hen, so I guess it's not really needed here.

- Keiichi's recount of his, er, criminal past(?). There already no room for the current story to begin with, so I guess you can't blame them for skipping it. :heh: The "bite-sized" heart-to-heart talk between Keiichi, Mion, Rika, and Satoko in the episode was nice. But it sure makes you wonder just how great it would've been if they did the whole thing...

Best scene in the episode? Obviously:
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5134/001075282fb5.th.jpg (http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=001075282fb5.jpg)
"Fueh!?"

Satoko walking off with a "kya..." was brilliant. :heh:

Too bad the music's all wrong... as usual.
I gotta say though, Keiichi's "gutsy" talk was really approaching the cheesy level in this episode. It all sounded fine in text form, but when spoken out loud so emotionally like that (good job, Hoshi-), it's just comical. Combined with Yukari-chan suddenly going into "dark" mode just like that, もうわけわからん :heh:

Oh, and good job restoring Akane-san's youth, Deen. :heh:

And finally, it looks like they had to give up Rena's last visit @ Keiichi's house (no time left for that in the end)... Too bad, I almost felt like crying when they did this (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1300/0816ny2.jpg). :(

But still, they managed to set themselves up nicely for the finale. The final episode next week should be a thrill to watch. (・ω・)

Sinless Idiot

2006-09-19, 20:18

I have one lingering problem:

Is is me or is the size of Rena's billhook/machete/whatever jump from half the size of her body, to about the size of her forearm in this ep and in general? I wish Deen or ANYONE would finally make up their minds on how big the damn thing is.

Rasuberi

2006-09-19, 20:29

魅音!今度はかあいすスギなのです!ウヒャ~　

This episode was so touching, really. First I was thinking, wow, Rena, calm down! I worry for her. Then Keiichi's "past" was :confused: ! But then all the scenes after that were just heart warming. Keiichi remembering Onikakushi, Rika realizing this... and then going up to Mion and hugging her~:)

This episode is making me depressed it ends next week. :( Damn you Deen, dissapoint me, and then get me excited at the last minute!

At least I'm finally reading the sound novels! (Though at a snail pace, can't wait till school work slows down...) Aaah, happiness. I am so tempted to just skip the question chapters to the answer chapters, but I'll keep myself from doing that...

Ayu-ayu

2006-09-20, 00:38

Yah, nice episode...Keiichi's "memory" of his Onikakushi life was pretty sweet as was the hugging scene and Satoko's reaction.

Revealing the syringe was a marker pen was an interesting point--what DID he tape to the back of the clock and why was that part ripped out?--as was that sad scene of Rena trying to still reach through to him before he struck her with the bat in his madness.

Heh, so that's what the "zombie" quote was....ah well, still could be foreshadowing AFAIK... lol

In terms of where the anime will cut out, I am hoping someone will do scanslations of the manga that cover the remaining arcs as they become available...certainly any compassionate help at all from those who are in the know about the remaining arcs will be greatly appreciated. As it is, I can't thank kj1980, Sushi-Y, and Lost Blue enough for all their patient work on the TIPS thread as well as answering questions, etc. Excellent work guys!

It really is a crime that Studio Dean has dropped the ball so hard after Onikakushi...it's like watching a series of mostly Yashigani episodes...orz. If they had delivered the rest of the series at the same level, this could have become my favorite anime series. As it is, though, I think it's one of the best stories to get attempted as an anime, at least (if not very successfully handled). The DVDs could still redeem them, but to do so, the amount of work that needs to be redone is monumental, so I doubt it will be enough. :(

Here's hoping episode 26 ends on a strong production note, at least...

sagematt

2006-09-20, 00:53

Superb. After last week's episode I almost dropped this series (because I didn't approve of Deen's treatment on the first place), but I'm glad I watched this episode. I hope they end this the right way (and HEAVEN OR HELL has to be epic!!!).

8 out of 10. Now we can only hope...

(Yeah, I'm the guy who always deviates from the mean :P)

RiXeD

2006-09-20, 09:37

Best scene in the episode? Obviously:
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5134/001075282fb5.th.jpg (http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=001075282fb5.jpg)
"Fueh!?"

Satoko walking off with a "kya..." was brilliant. :heh:

Too bad the music's all wrong... as usual.

NO! As a whole-hearted KeiichixRena-ist, I am disgusted! I DEMAND SATISFACTION! >x|

O` hail Queen Rena!

Thisguy

2006-09-20, 10:34

NO! As a whole-hearted KeiichixRena-ist, I am disgusted! I DEMAND SATISFACTION! >x|

O` hail Queen Rena!Your wish shall probably be granted, I suppose :D

I've yet to watch the ep, but from what I hear from some specific place, Deen again messed up with BGM...I just watched a MAD that combined the moment of K's awakening with Birth & death for BGM... Man, that was freakin good.

I suppose there'd be issue with Anime using original BGM, weather legal problem, professional composer's pride or whatever I don't know.
However, I think these who played original would all agree that Anime's BGM sucks up to this point.
I wonder why they can't just compose some arranges, or at least something that has similer atmosphere, rather than what we have now...
Edit: some wording and grammer

Sushi-Y

2006-09-20, 10:52

NO! As a whole-hearted KeiichixRena-ist, I am disgusted! I DEMAND SATISFACTION! >x|

O` hail Queen Rena!
If Deen doesn't mess up the final episode, you will get your satisfaction (well, maybe).

Actually, I think Tsumihoroboshi-hen was the only chapter where Keiichi and Rena got _________ in the end? Game players who were too distracted by the final TIP probably didn't notice that.

I've yet to watch the ep, but from what I hear from some specific place, Deen again messed up with BGM...
Unfortunately, that's not the end of it. I can predict that the lack of 彷徨いの言葉は天に導かれ and ZERO from the finale is going to at least cut the last episode's impact by half.

kj1980

2006-09-20, 11:12

For once I am quite satisfied. Too bad they left out Keiichi's confession of his past deeds, but that can be arranged (See TIPS #130 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=681523&postcount=130)).

But I still get the feeling that DEEN could've done better to show Rena's descent into madness (she still looked a bit normal from me up until the half point). The game did a good job at this by gradually changing Rena's text color from white, to pink, then into blood-shot red. It sent chills down my spine at the time when I first realized that effect when they made the red text stand out over a dark background picture...

As people have mentioned, yes the anime music pales in comparison to the original soundtrack used from the game. It's like: game = dramatic and at times, frightful >>>> anime = just plain cheesy. With that in mind, I am rather disappointed in Kawai Kenji at this point.

I'm glad to see Sonozaki's ane-san (seiyuu pun intended of course) back being a MILF!! Now if only they would do the same fountain-of-youth thing for Kuma-chan as well www

We're now left with the final episode...all I wish is that they don't screw up the best scene ever and the final plot twist at the end.

Shiosai

2006-09-20, 15:30

Why does K1 get so much pleasure from shooting kids with BB guns? :heh:

Sinless Idiot

2006-09-20, 15:45

We're now left with the final episode...all I wish is that they don't screw up the best scene ever and the final plot twist at the end.

Can we expect the post-end plot twist in the anime? I can imagine it being used a trick to lure people into buying the games to learn what happens I guess.

USCPharmacist

2006-09-20, 21:19

Why does K1 get so much pleasure from shooting kids with BB guns? :heh:
Why do 4 chaners cheer when Shion stabbed the living shit out of Sadoko. ehehe j/k:heh:

Thisguy

2006-09-21, 08:59

Finally got to watch the ep...
Surely it was quite a jet-speed, but I could feel their desperate attempt to fit (too) many events into merely 25 minutes of an episode and not ruining it.

I had voted 7 out of 10 , but as I write this I actually think I should've put a better score.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1294/natabatls2.th.jpg (http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=natabatls2.jpg)
I lol'ed when I saw this in preview... 赤字と青字とかやりすぎｗｗｗ :heh:

Well, I guess it shows that staffs DO know how important the scene is, so I'm slightly relieved.
For now, I'll trust in them for doing their very very best for climax, which I know many of us looking forward to.
(*cough*maybe except bgm*cough*)

Paracelsus

2006-09-21, 17:35

The thing that impressed me the most is that Keiichi was not scared when talking with Super OyashiRena of the second level (you know, a la Gohan <.<). And yeah, K1 hugging True Shion was moving. Hope she does not get killed >_>

Eleutheria

2006-09-21, 19:10

Finally watched episode 25, and I actually got most of the dialogue! Hurray!

This was the best episode in a long while, the hug was great, the awakening cheesy but sad... Loved it when the cop panned Takano's notebooks as bullshit occult fiction. "What? This one blames it on aliens/demons/enchanted lunatics on motorcycles?" Harsh. :)

In Onikakushi-hen, Rena didn't have memories of past lives, and could only hold out her bloodied hands imploringly.
This time, Keiichi is armed with foreknowledge. How will it be different...? Maybe he'll beat some sense into Rena with his trademark bat.

And the last TIP for this episode is stunning. Perhaps for the bulk of the TIP Rika is talking to "Oyashiro". Then at the end she's talking to "Satoko". Or Satoko=Oyashiro.

Sushi-Y:
Is there any hint in the TIP itself (text color, pagination, etc) that provides a clue as to whether Satoko is also who Rika is talking to from the beginning? Or is it again all white text on a black background?

At least I'm finally reading the sound novels! (Though at a snail pace, can't wait till school work slows down...) Aaah, happiness. I am so tempted to just skip the question chapters to the answer chapters, but I'll keep myself from doing that...

I know! I'm at "just after Watanagashi" in Watanagashi-hen, and I'm itching to just skip ahead to Meakashi-hen.

Good to know someone is having the same pains as me. Fighto...

(This also means I won't be spoiling myself with Minagoroshi-hen and Matsuribayashi-hen information. Hopefully these threads will still be archived in the event that I actually finish those final chapters)

Sushi-Y

2006-09-21, 22:50

Sushi-Y:
Is there any hint in the TIP itself (text color, pagination, etc) that provides a clue as to whether Satoko is also who Rika is talking to from the beginning? Or is it again all white text on a black background?
Most of the TIP is narrated against a background of the night sky, probably to simulate Rika's view.

When Satoko woke up, the background changed to a view of their house, probably to simulate Rika "turning around".

For what it's worth (since this is lost in translation), the speech style of the person that Rika's talking to is completely different from Satoko's way of speaking. If you were to read the TIP in Japanese, it would be quite obvious that the person Rika's talking to is not Satoko.

kj1980

2006-09-21, 23:20

Besides, TIPS #123 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=668620&postcount=123) makes it very clear that Satoko is not in the house when Rika is talking to someone. Hence, Satoko ≠ the person(?) that Rika is talking to.

LostBlue

2006-09-21, 23:48

Too bad, they took that out of Meakashi Hen
but, too gruesome for TV IMO tho

MarthX

2006-09-22, 00:35

Too bad, they took that out of Meakashi Hen
but, too gruesome for TV IMO tho

Then it should be on the DVD. But I'm not holding my breath for that.

LostBlue

2006-09-22, 02:33

Most likely not b/c there is no Minagoroshi Hen in the anime. We'll fill you in the blanks once the show is over. I'm sure someone will mention that (it's been mentioned a few times already on this forum) ^^

Li Jianliang

2006-09-24, 03:11

Belated Screen Captures for Episode 25 (http://atashi.wordpress.com/2006/09/24/higurashi-no-naku-koro-ni-episode-25-tsumihoroboshi-chapter-4-invasion-of-earth/)

I'm glad to see that the animation quality for this episode went back up. Parts of the last couple of episodes of Higurashi had me whincing... Ugh. (Then the ending credits listed the help of a Taiwanese (or was it Chinese?) animation studio for art...)

I'm really, really hoping for a grand Keiichi vs. Rena showdown in the final episode.
http://atashi.wordpress.com/files/2006/09/higu25_32.jpg
Where did the poly-tank come from?!?!?

Freakman

2006-09-24, 14:23

Polyethylene tank + Lighter = ? :D

Sushi-Y

2006-09-24, 14:50

http://atashi.wordpress.com/files/2006/09/higu25_32.jpg
Where did the poly-tank come from?!?!?
It's what Rena used to transport the ________.

Wanderer

2006-09-25, 10:51

Gains

2006-09-25, 12:43

This may be a bit off topic for this episode, but could Kasai maybe be Shion and Mion's father?

Like, there's the thing about Akane being disowned seemingly for her choice in love... but at the same time we don't really hear much about the reason why. And then there's Kasai's past of being "tricked be a woman" which he couldn't really tell Shion.

Of course it isn't exactly conclusive, but the possibility is definately there.

He's not. In Himatsubushi and Meakashi, you can see their father clearly beside Akane. Shion's way of speaking to him can also count (Kasai without honorifics) and Mion calls him Kasai-san.

My thoughts is that Kasai's past is linked to Tatarigoroshi. I'm thinking that Rina's death there may happen because she tricked Kasai and then the Sonozakis took care of the matter by performing Watanagashi on her. In Tsumihoroboshi, Rena is the one doing the honours.

theacefrehley

2006-09-25, 12:58

He's not. In Himatsubushi and Meakashi, you can see their father clearly beside Akane. Shion's way of speaking to him can also count (Kasai without honorifics) and Mion calls him Kasai-san.

My thoughts is that Kasai's past is linked to Tatarigoroshi. I'm thinking that Rina's death there may happen because she tricked Kasai and then the Sonozakis took care of the matter by performing Watanagashi on her. In Tsumihoroboshi, Rena is the one doing the honours.

I think he was intending to say that Kasai is the biological father, not the "official" father.

well...
whatever

Wanderer

2006-09-25, 14:27

theacefrehley is right. What I am suggesting is that Akane had an affair (or something along those lines) and that Kasai, not her current husband, is Mion and Shion's father. Further, I'm suggesting that Mion and Shion don't even know.

Again, just speculation, but I think it is speculation that explains a few things pretty well.

Sinless Idiot

2006-09-25, 16:25

http://atashi.wordpress.com/files/2006/09/higu25_32.jpg

I like how they made the words "bat" and "hatchet" in bold and bright. Allusions, allusions, allusions.

Hopeful Death

2006-09-25, 18:31

Chibi_Faerie

2006-09-25, 19:34

Question!

Ok, so if K1 only imagined the syringe being there, then... HOW did he? I mean, the syringe DOES exist. We've seen Rika with one. How would K1 have known about it to imagine it in the first place?

Not to say I have the reason why he imagined it, but I think it was because by this point his mind had totally snapped, and Oishi told him about Tomitake's death. I think he mentioned the possibility of drugs or some unidentifyable substance possibility. So the overly paranoid Keichi snapped and pictures a syringe. At least thats what I think. Need to redownload the episodes to be sure since it's been awhile.

Hopeful Death

2006-09-25, 19:40

Yeah. It just seems too convenient to be a coincidence. That syringe is friggin mysterious :eyespin:

Matrim

2006-09-25, 20:32

Thank you WIND, you surprised me pleasantly by releasing this episode today.

I guess the alien parasites theory is pretty much dead now. At least I hope so.
Why the heck does Takano have so many scrapbooks? And why do the Sonozakis have most of them? If they knew what she was up to, shouldn't they have gotten rid of her years ago - after all, they seem to be very much involved in the murders both in the notes given to Shion and to Rena. It's very much likely that this was the case with some of the scrapbooks shown to the police. Anyway, it's going to be a crazy revelation if it turns out that the scrapbooks were right on money, just referring to different "realities", although that's a really unlikely theory ("underground earth people did it", LOL).

The Onikakushi flashbacks were quite moving. Ooishi's willingness to reveal disturbing facts about the characters past struck me again - how did he find this info about K1 and why did he feel obliged to tell that to the not so mentally stable Rena? It's as if he wants to increase people's sense of paranoia.
The last tip in the tips thread is again so full of possible interpretation that I think i will need to think long hard before trying my luck to interpret it. :)

myopius

2006-09-25, 21:40

Another win episode.

The whole multiple realities theme... Yeah, that's pretty weird, although it makes things more interesting and meaningful obviously. Can we say that the different arcs are actually happening in chronological "order", then? I mean, he's "remembering" the other reality, not experiencing it as it happens... (Edit: Wait, no, this at least can't be competely true, since the question and answer arc where Mion/Shion are focused on appear to happen in the same universe.) Guess we'll find out (or if it's not revealed in the series, which is what I seem to be reading in this topic, I'll find out somehow, like by reading a manga somebody said will be doing the unaired arcs, or by reading somebody spoil it on this forum.) Anyway, I hope the multiple realities thing doesn't end up being lamely explained.

I agree that Rena's transformation didn't really get much air time.

Edit: Random note... just realized, but it's cool how they're bringing it all together by ending with the answer arc to the starting question arc, and also providing a real connection between them by having Keiichi "remember" the previous arc, as it to respond to it.

I<3killerloli's

2006-09-25, 21:44

Uh....just a polite question for those "in the know"

You will tell us everything that happens in the end if we ask for it, right? I have a feeling that the grand revelation won't come in the anime, and I have no way of getting/reading the sound novels. So will things like the multiple-dimensions bit be explained to us?

DragoonKain3

2006-09-25, 21:48

I'm not reading the thread, because of what might be accidental spoilers of the game and such, but I just dropped by to say I loved this episode. For one, there's Mion blushing, which I find to be so cute since they rarely blush ever in this series. For another, Nakahara Mai does an impressive performance yet again. And thirdly, for some reason knowing that Rena wears thigh highs underneath that dress of hers make her look cuter, lol. ^^;

So far so good. I have heard from my friends that the anime left a lot of details out, but so far everything falls to place logically so I am happy even though there's some unanswered questions left. Great anime adaptation for those who haven't played the game a la Tsukihime, which is awesome as Higurashi can stand on its own as a great show without any prior knowledge, which IMO F/Sn really suffered from.

theacefrehley

2006-09-25, 21:51

Judging by Rena in this episode... Oyashiro-sama curse is an Acid Hallucination :heh: :heh:

We can now be sure that Takano's Notes weren't to be taken seriously, but I still believe tha some parts here and there can be taken as true (the part of the curse being a disease)

About Keiichi on Onikakushi-hen; Ooishi told K1 about the police suspecting Tomitake used some kind of drug. To associate drugs with a syringe is a quick blink.

I don't know about you but, to think that Mion and Rena were just trying to paint/scribble his face with a crayon, just for fun (or to save time till Irie comes), and were killed for that, made me feel very bad...
And the scene where Keiichi smash Rena's fingers on the door... brrr... bastard... poor Rena... :(

Now we can say that the videogame in real life is for sure
Rika is going through this, spending her coins and can remember the last games, but the others not... except keiichi...
Quite a pity the anime will most likely not answer anything once and for all.... :(

[]'s

GyroidFanatic

2006-09-25, 23:07

Quite a pity the anime will most likely not answer anything once and for all....

There's still hope for Minagoroshi-hen and Matsuribayashi-hen to be OVAs, or perhaps a second season if they include some original stories like the manga and PS2 game do.

Shiosai

2006-09-25, 23:37

We can now be sure that Takano's Notes weren't to be taken seriously
Sonozaki Akane said that the scrapbooks Rena borrowed were still missing so Rena's wild theories could be partially true. Just throwing that out. ;)

MarthX

2006-09-25, 23:55

Sonozaki Akane said that the scrapbooks Rena borrowed were still missing so Rena's wild theories could be partially true. Just throwing that out. ;)

Revealing there's multiple books tells me the theory Rena read is pure BS. As if she's written them for different scenarios to mislead people for whatever reason. Such manipulation leads me to believe she's the one pulling the strings behind everything.

GundamZZ

2006-09-26, 01:12

Multiple story books are cool.
[spoiler]
That nurse should get the PhD in children's literature instead PhD in biological weapon research(is there such degree^0^). The next episode better show the glimpse of the worst ending: Rika sees everyone gets shot and she swears she will remember it in the next round.

Get the joke, now?
[spoiler]

Killer Loli

2006-09-26, 02:24

yakuri-moe

2006-09-26, 02:50

In the TIP for ep. 25, Rika's talking to someone -that is not Satoko- I suspect is Mion? And if she isn't, then I'm in dark waters again -_-

How...?? what??? K1 remembers something that's supposed to happen in an alternate universe?? how messed up is this ok now I'm completely lost @_@ (but is darn interesting)

Cool mature voice Rika has here. BTW she seems to be the only one remembering the "resets", how's that possible, why? (yeah lots of questions)

LostBlue

2006-09-26, 05:28

Before any more speculations go on about, I suggest reading TIP #129 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=681486&postcount=129).

;)

MarthX

2006-09-26, 07:30

Before any more speculations go on about, I suggest reading TIP #129 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=681486&postcount=129).

;)

I can't believe that scene was cut.

chrno_the_sinner

2006-09-26, 09:02

It’s very itchy, but don’t scratch it. The more I scratch, the itching will increase, ...and in the end I will repeat the same mistake as Tomitake-san! Shit, shit shit...!!

Well, that's a particularily nice fact. While I'm pretty sure the parasite theory is complete BS, the itching probably provides a good reason for Tomitake and Keiichi's deaths in Onikakushi.

That tip is really mysterious too. It's a shame Minagoroshi-hen won't be animated.

Quajafrie

2006-09-26, 09:41

...This episode was better than episodes 1-24 alltogether.

Deathkillz

2006-09-26, 10:59

kj1980

2006-09-26, 11:52

amazing...simply da best :D
but i have 2 questions...
1) the worms or whtever that came out of rena's neck...are they real? or just imaginary?
2) wtf? k1 remembering from an alternate universe? anyone explain?
nooo last ep next time :( im really gona miss this series!!

Read TIPS #125 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=675178&postcount=125) regarding delusional parasitosis.

raikage

2006-09-26, 12:34

Maybe I just wasn't in the right frame of mind when I saw this ep.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3596/vlcsnap75454ch5.png

Was I the only one who actually laughed when I read this?

I know it's supposed to be representative of just how off her rocker she is at this point, but it was so over-the-top ridiculous it just came across as rather funny.

The alternate-reality theory is in full effect, apparently, which just makes me go, Huh? :twitch:

No new clue as to what causes the gas tragedy.

I'm wondering just what will or will not be resolved by the end of 26.

chrno_the_sinner

2006-09-26, 13:12

amazing...simply da best :D
but i have 2 questions...
1) the worms or whtever that came out of rena's neck...are they real? or just imaginary?

Definitely in her imagination. In case you didn't notice, Rena is going bonkers right now.:heh:

2) wtf? k1 remembering from an alternate universe? anyone explain?
nooo last ep next time :( im really gona miss this series!!

As far as I know, the answer to that one is in Minagoroshi-hen, which will be fantranslated after the last episode is subbed next week. The game players are also going to be answering questions if you can't sacrifice the time to see the entire thing transated.

myopius

2006-09-26, 13:56

I thought about this last night and even dreamed about it briefly (dreamed about burning it to a DVD and showing it to some friends). So, I post again in this topic to say: man, I'm really looking forward to episode 26. Hatchet/Bat for the win.

That was an awesome shot that Sushi-Y posted of a scene involving Rena and Keiichi that was left out... This anime would completely and utterly win if the characters' faces were as beautifully detailed as in that screenshot. The art style is really interesting... I rewatched the last bit of episode 25 (among other parts) and saw Rena advancing slowly with hatchet in hand, and thought that she looked very skeletal and inhuman, like a reaper.

As I've been watching Rena in this arc I've realized how much like a shounen-style hero she can be. I mean, she has her trademark outfit and weapon and not only that, she's tough but her personality is also slightly mysterious. Keiichi's a bit shounen too since he's already killed her in an alternate reality with the same weapon that he may now use for the sake of good (maybe... lol). The shounen in me is looking forward to the hypothetical Keiichi vs Rena, bat vs hatchet, trust vs distrust fight/conflict that I feel is being symbolized in the preview.

Anyway, I really wonder if it's not too late for her... I really don't think this arc, and the entire series, can end with both Keiichi and Rena surviving. I also wonder if it's not just Takano's notes that is driving Rena to isolate herself, but also the murders she committed. A major theme of Higurashi is sin, and that was her sin, so maybe that's the root of what causes her to feel she "can never return" (to quote the introduction) to the trust and friendship she once had.

aliensporebomb

2006-09-26, 14:06

Geez.

Parasites? I don't know. Aliens? Doubtful. Virus? Probably.
It's definetely something external causing mass mental disturbance.

Can we really trust that Rena is so off-her-rocker right now her perceptions
are completely wrong about what she thinks? We just don't/won't know.

HOW did she know about K1's indiscretions with the BB Gun. She said
it was Oishi but I have my doubts he would reveal that information to a
minor much less a mentally not-stable minor.

Re: Notebooks:
I believe the multiple notebooks may indeed be 'decoys' and this is why
the Sonozaki family had so many of them. Most of them are just junk
but there may be one or two with bits of the truth in them. Why are
the Sonozaki's so intent on getting them? I suppose any doubt in the
town religion might potentially harm the viability of their "three great
houses".

Re: Keiichi / Mion Hug:
The blushing Mion scene was worth about a hundred dollars. She nearly
turned purple there. Who knows, if you-know-who wasn't there she might
have actually returned it and then some. Moohaha.

chrno_the_sinner

2006-09-26, 14:16

Wanderer

2006-09-26, 14:47

Crazy TIPS... As good as this show is (and it is very good) it is amazing how much better the game is. Really, I think this show should have been ~50 episodes including all 8 arcs. More animation budget (particularly for Meakashi-hen) would help a lot too.

It appears that I was onto things when I posted this (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=669747&postcount=29) a few episodes ago. The person Rena is talking to in TIP #129 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=681486&postcount=129) is definately Frederica Bernkastel. I also think if you go back and look over all of the "cynical" TIPS that seemed to be from Rika's perspective, they are actually from Frederica's perspective.

The identity/nature of Oyashiro-sama still remains a mystery, however.

And we're seeing the theme of copies of people again. Still, perhaps both in this arc and in Tatarigoroshi-hen, it was always just Rena's/K1's friends covering them. Did perhaps Mion move Teppei's corpse in Tatarigoroshi-hen as well? She could have very easilly figured out what K1 was up to.

I also think that these green mercanary people do indeed work for the Sonozakis. However, I don't think that they're trying to do any harm to Onikakushi-hen K1 or Tsumihoroboshi-hen Rena. In fact I think they are/were trying to help them.

K1's memories of Onikakushi-hen in while he was falling from the bridge in Tatarigoroshi-hen make sense now.

What I am really wondering about is how this "disease" is "contracted". If indeed a shot will fix it then it must be a physical medical condition, rather than a supernatural disease. If that is the case, then there also has to be a mundane cause for the disease right? Is it really some kind of parasite that only can live in Hinamizawa? Or is the syringe just a placebo just to get Rena to trust her friends again? If that were the case, the disease may still be supernatural.

I've got a feeling we will see that door in the sky that appears in the opening credits in episode 26. And maybe the disease has something to do with all of those flowers we see in the intro as well...

Wanderer

2006-09-26, 15:00

Oishi told Keiichi about Rena's wonderful window smashing adventures. I don't see how this is any different.

The question is still there though. Did Rena ask Ooishi about K1's past like how K1 asked about Rena's in Onikakushi-hen?

Ooishi sure has served as a catalyst for the mistrust between Rena and K1 in both of these arcs... in fact in both cases his story about the character's past seriously aggrivated the situation. An interesting question is: Why is Ooishi trying to undermine the trust between the 5 main characters?

imac2much

2006-09-26, 15:28

Still, perhaps both in this arc and in Tatarigoroshi-hen, it was always just Rena's/K1's friends covering them. Did perhaps Mion move Teppei's corpse in Tatarigoroshi-hen as well? She could have very easilly figured out what K1 was up to.

I was wondering this as well. However, didn't people see Teppei after that night? I'll have to rewatch those episodes...

BakaOnna

2006-09-26, 15:33

Wow... this episodes was... really awesome. It's probably my favorite episode so far. So many relevations. This episode was sad and made me teary. >.>

It does seem like the reset theory is true. About that one TIP about the dice, I don't think Rika was talking to Sakoto. It seems to me like Sakoto came down and saw that Rika was still awake. I also think the person Rika is talking to is the same person she was talking to with the "My Favorite Wine" TIP. Oyashiro? Anyway, I can't wait for the next episode.

theacefrehley

2006-09-26, 15:33

「But I will dare to call myself Rika. .........I, do believe that my given name is Rika, as it’s been so long.」

This line caught my attention...

She is Rika somehow, but at the same time is not...

:confused: :confused:

To me it looks like this:
Rika Furude is a small child like the others
The other one (Frederika?) is the Rika that has the memories of the other worlds and is bored with these loops of reality
The one Rika/Frederika talks with while drinks wine is... Oyashiro-sama? hehehe :D

blergh... :(

LostBlue

2006-09-26, 16:37

HOW did she know about K1's indiscretions with the BB Gun. She said it was Oishi but I have my doubts he would reveal that information to a minor much less a mentally not-stable minor.

Oishi doesn't know that Rena has lost it. He has only has contacted her a few times. First at the school in his car and had at least 2 phone calls later. Her hysteria can be explain (in his pt of view) that he thinks Rena is being targetted by the Sonozaki Family. Besides if you only heard the first part of her theory it sounds reasonable (even tho questionable).

There's a lot of stuff skipped from the Mion + Keiichi scene this EP and Rena + Keiichi phone call from the last EP. Basically, the scrapbooks were much more detailed with other scientific evidences (ie talking about other types of parasites, talking about spring fever/allergies, etc). and circumstantial evidences (more Sonozaki stuff during the Dam wars), but Mion picks apart every example Keiichi could think of from his phone call with Rena the following day.

I believe the multiple notebooks...
Apparently, according to Mion, Rena isn't the first of Takano's victims. Takano picks a lucky child every year to tell her stories to :heh: Years before, Satoko believed there were mole people running around for a while.

Still, perhaps both in this arc and in Tatarigoroshi-hen, it was always just Rena's/K1's friends covering them. Did perhaps Mion move Teppei's corpse in Tatarigoroshi-hen as well? She could have very easilly figured out what K1 was up to.

Most likely this was Shion who did this. Shion intercepted Keiichi's phone call and knew instantly the same situation happened last year. She was in the best position to cover up for Keiichi. Ne-ne + Ni-Ni do think alike ^^;

imac2much

2006-09-26, 17:48

Hm actually, are we really sure that Keiichi did actually kill Teppei? Didn't his friends say he was at the festival the entire time..?

Shuin4

2006-09-26, 17:59

Hm actually, are we really sure that Keiichi did actually kill Teppei? Didn't his friends say he was at the festival the entire time..?

That was a cover-up from his friends. I guess Rena, Mion, and Rika saw that Satoko was very upset over his sudden disappearance (Asshole or not, you would still be really nervous if one of your best friends murdered your uncle) and decided to let Satoko believe Keiichi really was at the festival. Keiichi was just too dumb to catch on.

Matrim

2006-09-26, 18:05

Apparently, according to Mion, Rena isn't the first of Takano's victims. Takano picks a lucky child every year to tell her stories to

They really should have mentioned this in the anime, it seems to me like an important clue but then again I am somewhat obsessed with Takano.

Deathkillz

2006-09-26, 18:19

Apparently, according to Mion, Rena isn't the first of Takano's victims. Takano picks a lucky child every year to tell her stories to :heh: Years before, Satoko believed there were mole people running around for a while.

the bastard...:heh: telling stories make ppl go crazy...and gets them killed...

imac2much

2006-09-26, 20:10

That was a cover-up from his friends. I guess Rena, Mion, and Rika saw that Satoko was very upset over his sudden disappearance (Asshole or not, you would still be really nervous if one of your best friends murdered your uncle) and decided to let Satoko believe Keiichi really was at the festival. Keiichi was just too dumb to catch on.

Ah... yeah I just rewatched Tatarigoroshihen and realized they never showed Teppei after that night. That arc is starting to make more sense to me now... still confused about some things but I'm guessing most of the answers are in Minagoroshihen? (hopefully I'm not going too off topic haha).

theacefrehley

2006-09-26, 20:54

Still, perhaps both in this arc and in Tatarigoroshi-hen, it was always just Rena's/K1's friends covering them. Did perhaps Mion move Teppei's corpse in Tatarigoroshi-hen as well? She could have very easilly figured out what K1 was up to.

Most likely this was Shion who did this. Shion intercepted Keiichi's phone call and knew instantly the same situation happened last year. She was in the best position to cover up for Keiichi. Ne-ne + Ni-Ni do think alike ^^;

Yeah
I noticed it too
Just take a look again on Tatarigoroshi and Meakashi
On Tatarigoroshi "Mion" said "I received a similar call last year" (refering to Satoshi) but from Meakashi we know the one who received this call was Shion. (Even if the "worlds/arcs" are different I'll admit some things are the same)

Shion probably prepared to cover up for Keiichi, maybe she even got help from the girls, Mion and Rena. Who knows...

Matrim

2006-09-26, 21:30

LostBlue

2006-09-26, 21:31

the bastard...:heh: telling stories make ppl go crazy...and gets them killed...

For your amusement, I roughly TL half of Mion's confession to Keiichi. None of this is relevant, but if you guys want to the rest of it, I guess I'll post it later in the week (the rest of the convo is up). This is where Mion talks about Takano's past works.

The day after Keiichi has his phone call with Rena, he decides to confront Mion about it as Keiichi didn’t want to believe that Mion was involved in such a conspiracy.

M: 「……What, …what’s up…?」
K: 「Do you know, ……there are people who are trying to revive the Faith in Oyashiro-sama. 」
M: 「…………huh？　What, Kei-chan? What are we talking about?」

This is of course, just me prying.
I wanted to see what reaction Mion will have if I came at her directly.

But, Mion really really looked at me blankly.
……When someone hits the nail on the head, most people can’t keep their cool. Most definitely they will show some, even a little, reaction.

Unless Mion is a gifted actor, ……Mion really, had no connection with the words revival of Oyashiro-sama.

……I decided to come clean.

K: 「Mion. Your house, the Sonozaki Family, holds extreme influence over all of Hinamizawa. …………but is there …some type of secret plan to revive the faith of Oyashiro-sama？」

M: 「……Revive？　Why？」

K: 「Yeah, I mean. The current Oyashiro-sama’s Faith is pretty thin, compared to the ancient times, right? Meaning, ……there are orthodox advocates wanting to bring the faith to the level it used to be like long ago like in Onigafuchi with some secrete plan or something.」

M: 「Wha？　Wait wait, what’s that. What are we talking about?」
K: 「………So really, you have no idea what I’m talking about…？」

M: 「Of course I don’t. What, that’s an interesting story, kinda like those American Best Sellers.」

Mion’s reaction was very natural.
It was impossible that she was pretending to act that she didn’t know when she really knows. ……But, I still continued.

K: 「Well, I mean…… There seems to be people like that in this village. Mion, don’t you know?」

M: 「The Oyashiro-sama Faith, to the level of the Onigafuchi era…？　Is there something good that will come out of that？」
K: 「……Well, ……obviously to the strong fanatical believers, it may have some profound meaning to them……」

M: 「But Kei-chan. No one is going to be happy, going back to the old strict ways. Now in the present, if someone said you can’t leave the village, they won’t be able to make a living, you know.」
K: 「Fo, for example, you know, ……Rika-chan!　It seems that Rika-chan been pampered being that she is said to be the reincarnation of Oyashiro-sama, right? So probably within followers of senior citizen crowd there might be a fanatical group existing……、」

M: 「By Rika-chan’s followers you mean, like Kimiyoshi-no-Ojichan?

Well, …I certainly believe that they have heavy beliefs but, I don’t think you can call that fanatical.」

K: 「No, but there is! People who plan to once again revive the true Oyashiro-sama Faith!」

M: 「Ah ha ha ha ha!
　…Okay okay. We’re going nowhere with this, so let’s say I believe you. And?」
K: 「And, they realized that Oyashiro-sama true identity is an unique local endemic disease in this region, and they are researching to determine the pathogen.」

M: 「Where?

Anyway what’s this endemic disease? What the heck is a pathogen? Stop being so smart.」

I don’t even know what I’m trying to say anymore…

Last night, I was completely inspired by Rena, buying into this crazy story but,……Now that I say it out of my mouth, I begin to understand how inconsistent it is…

M: 「What happen? Did Miyo-san indoctrinate you with these strange talk?」
K: 「……！　…You know?！」

M: 「It’s well known. That person, is an occult mania, so she’s always coming up with these tremendous tall tales. Once in a while there will be someone who takes it seriously, and heavily becomes influenced; it’s pretty famous around here.

I also, long ago, heard her stories, and it was quite fun. Ah ha ha.」
K: 「…………Is that, ……for real？」

M: 「Kei-chan, I’m sure you heard of this somewhere, but this village long ago had quite an unique tradition. And those traditions were rather on the grim side, with strict percepts and strict penalties, and harsh customs, become somewhat famous amongst the occult crowd it seems. Miyo-san is just one of those maniacs.」

K: 「Then……、the story about this village being under the control of mysterious parasites are…,」

M: 「Ha？！　Parasiiites？！

　…Is that, Miyo-san’s new story？」
K: 「What do you mean by new story?」

M: 「I told you, Miyo-san is an occult mania. She’s been researching into the outrageous legends of Onigafuchi village, and with this and that legends she pulls, she analyze them, and has fun creating these fantasies.

That’s why, she has all these other literally works besides that village mind-controlling parasites theorizing stuff. The one I heard long ago was the UFO theory. This was quite interesting as it was pretty consistent!

In the ancient past, a UFO crash lands in the Onigafuchi Marsh, and from there the aliens that came out started this war with the villagers…and it started something like that, kinda like a B-Class SF Horror flick. The one Satoko heard, was the underground citizens theory, I think it was?　With the change in the Earth’s crust, an Underground Kingdom and Onigafuchi became connected, and what happen,

……yes yes、the Princess of the Underground Kingdom and a youngster from the village fell in love, and restored the communion of the society, it was an SF Romeo & Juliet.

And then, her new work seems to be the parasite theory that you heard Kei-chan. Yep yep, I would really want her to collect all these in one book someday, ku ku ku!」

Mion then couldn’t help laughing so hard, she grabs her stomach.

……As I watch this,…I realized what a hollow farfetched tale I took seriously.

There’s no mistake about it.
…I’ve fallen for an outrageous tall tale.

K: 「I’m sory Mion! Honestly answer what I’m about to ask! First, ……are there people trying to revive the Oyashiro-sama Faith?!」

M: 「Nope. Actually, it’s quite the opposite. The Gosanke already have the single will to appeal Hinamizawa steadily to the outside world, and prosper the village. This is still a secret, but our aim for the 21st century is to have a freeway run through here. The Sonozaki Family is currently baiting the topic under the surface. If all goes well, this area will boom with prosperity. Baccha predicts with that, the property value of this mountain forest area will skyrocket and we’ll make a large profit. Although, that large task will have to wait until 21st century, so most likely I’ll be taking over that job.」

K: 「Then……, the people who are digested by outsiders… don’t exists？」

M: 「That’s what I’ve been telling you, they don’t！ The village is already incontinent, what’s the point of making it more so? Presently, the village is now, selling land for development. Kei-chan, your house is precisely the first example of that. Didn’t the villagers welcome you?　The Gosanke are trying to devise more ways to stop the outward flow of youngsters, you know.」

Mion’s words were not clouded.
It had a taste of reality incomparable to Takano’s delusional theory that Rena believes.

……My eyes steadily open with Mion’s words.

K: 「Then, then, …ahmmm, What about this account, as proof that there is a infestation of parasites, within the blood of the citizens of Hinamizawa, the number to something-or-other is abnormally high…,」

M: 「Is that so? Anyway, how did Miyo-san look into that？」
K: 「Because, Takano is a nurse, right? If she wanted to research that she could have done it whenever…」

M: 「And who is going to give blood to support that suspicious study? No one will. Either way, even if she was able to get the blood, where would she do that research? Are you saying that Miyo-san by herself study the blood of several people？」

…Exactly what Mion said.
Because of Takano-san’s occupation as a nurse, I probably was hooked into believing this tall tale. It’s one thing if a Health Care Centre collected large samples of blood, but there is a limit for Miyo-san to individually research this.

……By thinking reasonably like this, …this certainly is not a tale that should be swallowed.

K: 「Then, as another proof of the infestation of the parasites, I heard that no one gets hey fever…！」

M: 「Hey fever is a city disease. Wasn’t that related to exhaust gases? This is Hinamizawa, Kei-chan. Besides, probably, I would except they’re won’t be many people in Okonomiya either with hey fever.」

K: 「ah, ……then, what about this! That there is an Assassin Squadron under the direct control of the Sonozaki Estate Head, and long ago, they even kidnapped the Minsiter’s grandson, right？！」

M: 「Ah ha ha ha！ Wouldn’t that be cool! Ah ha ha ha！」

………I begin to think how nonsensical of the words I’m saying.

……But, yesterday I believed them.
……I was swallowed by Rena’s seriousness.

M: 「It’s true, the minister’s grandson was found around Takaudo. But, that wasn’t us. It wasn’t us, but we acted as if we really did.」
K: 「……That’s hard to understand, please explain.」

M: 「Yeah. During the Dam War, it’s true that the Onigafuchi Last Stand Alliance done some awfully dangerous resistance measures. We did stuff that bordered terrorism. But, at the time, there seemed to be people who used that image. There were fake Alliances that used the name to deceive people to demand money.」

The Onigafuchi Last Stand Alliance were at the time had that aggressive aura of influence.
The possibility for a group to deceive others by using the name for easy black mailing was certainly thinkable.

M: 「Amongst that, there was the kidnapping of the Minister’s grandson. Probably the culprits were pretending to be the Last Stand Alliance to throw the police investigation while they demanded their ransom.

To tell you the truth, that incident was even a surprise for the Alliance! It was the talk of they day, how amazing it was to kidnap the Minister’s grandson. If we ever met the culprits, we talked about how we should praise them.」
K: 「Wait, wait a second! Then the kidnapping of the Minister’s grandson ……had nothing to do with the Onigafuchi Last Stand Alliance?!」

M: 「Yep, not at all.」

Mion frankly said it.
Without any hesitation, as if splitting bamboo, she gave a clear-cut answer.

Even this, if I thought about it was obvious.

To kidnap the Minister’s grandson, and to make direct negotiations with the Minister, is an outrageous big incident.
That, no matter how aggressive they were, is not something the citizens of Hinamizawa can do. It’s obviously the work of a professional criminal!

M: 「…………Well, I stop myself short of saying it. The Sonozaki Estate, in regards to this kidnapping, acted as if they were black curtain behind it all.」
K: 「Acting, for what reason…？」

M: 「…This is、………a secret family tradition within the Sonozaki Estate. Kei-chan, I’ll secretly tell you, but you have to keep this a secret, okay?!

When anything favorable happens to the Sonozaki Estate, we act as if we pulled the strings to everything, it’s a practice of bluffing.」
K: 「………Bluffing,……！　A bluff？！」

M: 「Yeah. If something happens in our favor, it doesn’t even have to be an incident or anything. It could be the good weather, or even the winning lotto number. As if everything happened because the Sonozaki Estate desired it so, we act as if we knew the result.

Then what? It creates this image that we’re an astounding Overlord of all things, right? Meaning that’s it. This is an oral tradition passed generation to generation down to only the Sonozaki Estate Head, a secret tactic of image. A tactical image that makes us larger then we really are.」

K: 「……huhーーーーー…………。…th、…then、hey、during the Dam War didn’t you guys plan on taking over the Ministry of Construction?! What about that?! Moreover, for that purpose you had weapons and did training…！」

M: 「ku ku ku ku! That’s exactly the same thing, Kei-chan. You really think we’ll go through with that stupid plan?

Our greatest objective was to apply this pressure, they might be crazy enough to do it, see what terrifying people are, to give them this illusion was our greatest objective. Mean, this is another strategic image again.」

By making preparations and doing the training, they achieve their goal of applying this pressure, and had no thoughts of actually executing it, …just a Sonozaki Bluff.

Well, of course. Of course…！
There is no way they can occupy the Ministry of Construction, and even if they did, it wouldn’t solve anything, by giving it a little thought that’s obvious!
Say they did successfully occupy the building, the police will then push their way in with great numbers, and in a blink of an eye, suppress them!

K: 「Then, the weapons and the training is……」

M: 「Concerning the weapons……Ahaha、no comment, okay☆　But we did the training. So the Bluff will stand, we really did！

As Kasai-san as our Leader, my father gathered the youngsters, and played war games with a trainer in the Texan desert, then after that we laid-back and went sight-seeing in San Franciscoー. Ahahahahaha.」
K: 「Then, then,……then…………,」

I couldn’t think of anything else. …It was completely, obvious.

I was, no, Rena too.
……We were just being played by Takno-san’s delusional scrapbooks…….

-----------------------------
/end Convo
-----------------------------

Then it goes off with Keiichi seeing the white van again at the school yard with Chie-sensei talking to the man named Okonogi. Keiichi sees the Principal and asks him who these men were. The Principal replies they are Landscapers hired by the school. They got lost yesterday taking a shortcut to the school which is relatively easy to get lost here in Hinamizawa if you're not familiar with all the small roads.

The day before, also, Keiichi overhears the Principal and Chie-sensei talking about the envelop the Okonogi Landscapers gave them. The Principal was asking why the number on the envelop won't work which Chie-sensei responds that the envelop is from their old office and they just mistakenly to put it in the wrong envelop.

myopius

2006-09-26, 21:34

Still can't get this episode out of my head. What I'm wondering if how Rika will "fight with him". And if that will continue past this arc. And on the nature of the menace that she's willing to fight... If it's something that somebody who has a consciousness that spans across different realities takes extremely seriously, then I'm starting to doubt that "Oyashiro-sama's curse" can be just a virus or even something as mundane as aliens.

ChainLegacy

2006-09-26, 21:34

Well, heh, I didn't expect Keiichi to suddenly see into other dimensions. I knew there was some kind of magic force behind everything in this anime, but I am surprised they went that far. I'm not complaining, though, that is kind of cool. Maybe he should see all the dimensions =O. Well, I guess the first arc is the only one in which Keiichi had similar problems to Rena...

LostBlue

2006-09-26, 21:36

Er, I think LostBlue was just kidding. Why would Shion intercept that phone call? It's possible, though not that likely that Mion and the rest might have moved the body but I was never a fan of the cover up theory. I just don't think the girls would be that dumb not to inform him about the cover up and leave him think he was going mad.

Shion took the call, IMO. Read the last TIP for Meakashi.
When Shion isn't crazy, she's actually PROTECTIVE of Satoko (very apparent in Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi). Keiichi is her Ni-ni and Shion is her Ne-ne.

Unless you want to believe the dopplerganger theory which Rena supports in TIP 129.

Matrim

2006-09-26, 21:43

OK, maybe Shion moved the body but that does not explain Keiichi being seen on the festival.
Come to think about, why is the police unaware about Takano's penchant for fantastic scenarios? After all, it seems that her obsession is well known by the villagers if we are to trust Mion. Although, getting info from these particular villagers is not easy. ;)

MarthX

2006-09-26, 22:25

For your amusement, I roughly TL half of Mion's confession to Keiichi. None of this is relevant, but if you guys want to the rest of it, I guess I'll post it later in the week. This is where Mion talks about Takano's past works.

The day after Keiichi has his phone call with Rena, he decides to confront Mion about it as Keiichi didn’t want to believe that Mion was involved in such a conspiracy.

M: 「……What, …what’s up…?」
K: 「Do you know, ……there are people who are trying to revive the Faith in Oyashiro-sama. 」
M: 「…………huh?　What, Kei-chan? What are we talking about?」

This, of course, is just me prying.
I wanted to see what reaction Mion will have if I came at her directly.

But, Mion really really starred at me blankly.
……When someone hits the nail on the head, most people can’t keep their cool. Most definitely they will show some, even a little, reaction.

Unless Mion is a gifted actor, ……Mion really had no connection with the words, revival of Oyashiro-sama.

……I decided to come clean.

K: 「Mion. Your household, the Sonozaki Family, holds extreme influence over all of Hinamizawa. …………but is there …some type of secret plan to revive the faith of Oyashiro-sama?」

M: 「……Revive?　Why?」

K: 「Yeah, I mean. The current Oyashiro-sama’s Faith is pretty thin, compared to the ancient times, right? Meaning, ……there are orthodox advocates wanting to bring the faith to the level it used to be like long ago like in Onigafuchi with some secret plan or something.」

M: 「Wha?　Wait wait, what’s that. What are we talking about?」
K: 「………So really, you have no idea what I’m talking about…?」

M: 「Of course I don’t. Yea, that’s an interesting story, kinda like those American Best Sellers.」

Mion’s reaction was very natural.
It was impossible that she was pretending to act that she didn’t know when she really knows. ……But, I still continued.

K: 「Well, I mean…… There seems to be people like that in this village. Mion, don’t you know?」

M: 「The Oyashiro-sama Faith, to the level of the Onigafuchi era…?　Is there something good that will come out of that?」
K: 「……Well, ……obviously to the strong fanatical believers, it may have some profound meaning to them……」

M: 「But Kei-chan. No one is going to be happy, going back to the old strict ways. Now in the present, if someone said you can’t leave the village, they won’t be able to make a living, you know.」
K: 「Fo, for example, you know, ……Rika-chan!　It seems that Rika-chan been pampered being that she is said to be the reincarnation of Oyashiro-sama, right? So probably within followers of senior citizen crowd there might be a fanatical group existing……、」

M: 「By Rika-chan’s followers you mean, like Kimiyoshi-no-Ojichan?

Well, …I certainly believe that they have heavy beliefs but, I don’t think you can call that fanatical.」

K: 「No, but there is! People who plan to once again revive the true Oyashiro-sama Faith!」

M: 「Ah ha ha ha ha!
　…Okay okay. We’re going nowhere with this, so let’s say I believe you. And?」
K: 「And, they realized that Oyashiro-sama true identity is an unique local endemic disease in this region, and they are researching to determine the pathogen.」

M: 「Where?

Anyway what’s this endemic disease? What the heck is a pathogen? Stop being so smart.」

I don’t even know what I’m trying to say anymore…

Last night, I was completely inspired by Rena, buying into this crazy story but,……Now that I say it out of my mouth, I begin to understand how inconsistent it is…

M: 「What happen? Did Miyo-san indoctrinate you with these strange talk?」
K: 「……!　…You know?!」

M: 「It’s well known。That person, is an occult mania, so she’s always coming up with these tremendous tall tales. Once in a while there will be someone who takes it seriously, and heavily becomes influenced; it’s pretty famous around here.

I also, long ago, heard her stories, and it was quite fun. Ah ha ha.」
K: 「…………Is that, ……for real?」

M: 「Kei-chan, I’m sure you heard of this somewhere, but this village long ago had quite an unique tradition. And those traditions were rather on the grim side, with strict percepts and strict penalties, and harsh customs, become somewhat famous amongst the occult crowd it seems. Miyo-san is just one of those maniacs.」

K: 「Then……、the story about this village being under the control of mysterious parasites are…,」

M: 「Ha?!　Parasiiites?!

　…Is that, Miyo-san’s new story?」
K: 「What do you mean by new story?」

M: 「I told you, Miyo-san is an occult mania. She’s been researching into the outrageous legends of Onigafuchi village, and with this and that legends she pulls, she analyze them, and has fun creating these fantasies.

That’s why, she has all these other literally works besides that village mind-controlling parasites theorizing stuff. The one I heard long ago was the UFO theory. This was quite interesting as it was pretty consistent!

In the ancient past, a UFO crash lands in the Onigafuchi Marsh, and from there the aliens that came out started this war with the villagers…and it started something like that, kinda like a B-Class SF Horror flick. The one Satoko heard, was the underground citizens theory, I think it was?　With the change in the Earth’s crust, an Underground Kingdom and Onigafuchi became connected, and what happen,

……yes yes、the Princess of the Underground Kingdom and a youngster from the village fell in love, and restored the communion of the society, it was an SF Romeo & Juliet.

And then, this new work seems to be the parasite theory that you heard Kei-chan. Yep yep, I would really want her to collect this all in one book sometime, ku ku ku!」

Please do the rest. The more detail I know about the game (relevant or not) the better.

kj1980

2006-09-27, 01:19

Er, I think LostBlue was just kidding. Why would Shion intercept that phone call? It's possible, though not that likely that Mion and the rest might have moved the body but I was never a fan of the cover up theory. I just don't think the girls would be that dumb not to inform him about the cover up and leave him think he was going mad.

Then you must indeed wonder what Mion and Rena was about to tell Kei in Tatarigoroshi. Seriously, the anime does a very bad job at these things that some scenes are forgettable. Go watch Higurashi once over again after watching the last episode, and jot down notes.

By the way, you do realize by now that the corpse at the beginning of Tatarigoroshi was Rina right? People here and there wouldn't have wasted their time formulating that was Satoshi when all they had to read were the TIPS.

Wanderer

2006-09-27, 10:19

For your amusement, I roughly TL half of Mion's confession to Keiichi. None of this is relevant, but if you guys want to the rest of it, I guess I'll post it later in the week. This is where Mion talks about Takano's past works.

The day after Keiichi has his phone call with Rena, he decides to confront Mion about it as Keiichi didn’t want to believe that Mion was involved in such a conspiracy.

M: 「……What, …what’s up…?」
K: 「Do you know, ……there are people who are trying to revive the Faith in Oyashiro-sama. 」
M: 「…………huh？　What, Kei-chan? What are we talking about?」

This, of course, is just me prying.
I wanted to see what reaction Mion will have if I came at her directly.

But, Mion really really starred at me blankly.
……When someone hits the nail on the head, most people can’t keep their cool. Most definitely they will show some, even a little, reaction.

Unless Mion is a gifted actor, ……Mion really had no connection with the words, revival of Oyashiro-sama.

……I decided to come clean.

K: 「Mion. Your household, the Sonozaki Family, holds extreme influence over all of Hinamizawa. …………but is there …some type of secret plan to revive the faith of Oyashiro-sama？」

M: 「……Revive？　Why？」

K: 「Yeah, I mean. The current Oyashiro-sama’s Faith is pretty thin, compared to the ancient times, right? Meaning, ……there are orthodox advocates wanting to bring the faith to the level it used to be like long ago like in Onigafuchi with some secret plan or something.」

M: 「Wha？　Wait wait, what’s that. What are we talking about?」
K: 「………So really, you have no idea what I’m talking about…？」

M: 「Of course I don’t. Yea, that’s an interesting story, kinda like those American Best Sellers.」

Mion’s reaction was very natural.
It was impossible that she was pretending to act that she didn’t know when she really knows. ……But, I still continued.

K: 「Well, I mean…… There seems to be people like that in this village. Mion, don’t you know?」

M: 「The Oyashiro-sama Faith, to the level of the Onigafuchi era…？　Is there something good that will come out of that？」
K: 「……Well, ……obviously to the strong fanatical believers, it may have some profound meaning to them……」

M: 「But Kei-chan. No one is going to be happy, going back to the old strict ways. Now in the present, if someone said you can’t leave the village, they won’t be able to make a living, you know.」
K: 「Fo, for example, you know, ……Rika-chan!　It seems that Rika-chan been pampered being that she is said to be the reincarnation of Oyashiro-sama, right? So probably within followers of senior citizen crowd there might be a fanatical group existing……、」

M: 「By Rika-chan’s followers you mean, like Kimiyoshi-no-Ojichan?

Well, …I certainly believe that they have heavy beliefs but, I don’t think you can call that fanatical.」

K: 「No, but there is! People who plan to once again revive the true Oyashiro-sama Faith!」

M: 「Ah ha ha ha ha!
　…Okay okay. We’re going nowhere with this, so let’s say I believe you. And?」
K: 「And, they realized that Oyashiro-sama true identity is an unique local endemic disease in this region, and they are researching to determine the pathogen.」

M: 「Where?

Anyway what’s this endemic disease? What the heck is a pathogen? Stop being so smart.」

I don’t even know what I’m trying to say anymore…

Last night, I was completely inspired by Rena, buying into this crazy story but,……Now that I say it out of my mouth, I begin to understand how inconsistent it is…

M: 「What happen? Did Miyo-san indoctrinate you with these strange talk?」
K: 「……！　…You know?！」

M: 「It’s well known。That person, is an occult mania, so she’s always coming up with these tremendous tall tales. Once in a while there will be someone who takes it seriously, and heavily becomes influenced; it’s pretty famous around here.

I also, long ago, heard her stories, and it was quite fun. Ah ha ha.」
K: 「…………Is that, ……for real？」

M: 「Kei-chan, I’m sure you heard of this somewhere, but this village long ago had quite an unique tradition. And those traditions were rather on the grim side, with strict percepts and strict penalties, and harsh customs, become somewhat famous amongst the occult crowd it seems. Miyo-san is just one of those maniacs.」

K: 「Then……、the story about this village being under the control of mysterious parasites are…,」

M: 「Ha？！　Parasiiites？！

　…Is that, Miyo-san’s new story？」
K: 「What do you mean by new story?」

M: 「I told you, Miyo-san is an occult mania. She’s been researching into the outrageous legends of Onigafuchi village, and with this and that legends she pulls, she analyze them, and has fun creating these fantasies.

That’s why, she has all these other literally works besides that village mind-controlling parasites theorizing stuff. The one I heard long ago was the UFO theory. This was quite interesting as it was pretty consistent!

In the ancient past, a UFO crash lands in the Onigafuchi Marsh, and from there the aliens that came out started this war with the villagers…and it started something like that, kinda like a B-Class SF Horror flick. The one Satoko heard, was the underground citizens theory, I think it was?　With the change in the Earth’s crust, an Underground Kingdom and Onigafuchi became connected, and what happen,

……yes yes、the Princess of the Underground Kingdom and a youngster from the village fell in love, and restored the communion of the society, it was an SF Romeo & Juliet.

And then, this new work seems to be the parasite theory that you heard Kei-chan. Yep yep, I would really want her to collect this all in one book sometime, ku ku ku!」

Yeah, this totally makes sense. Takano seems like she is always having so much fun when she talks about this kind of stuff.

As far as Shion being the one covering for Keiichi in Tatarigoroshi-hen it makes some sense too, since Mion would have probably been busy at the matsuri. Still, why would Shion be at Mion's phone number? And of course, it is not like they can hide the fact that Teppei is at least missing from Satoko. Although I think Satoko goes paranoia-crazy in Tatarigoroshi-hen anyway...

Apparently, according to Mion, Rena isn't the first of Takano's victims. Takano picks a lucky child every year to tell her stories to Years before, Satoko believed there were mole people running around for a while.

This wouldn't happen to be three years ago, would it? :heh:

I have had a strong suspicion since all the way back at episode 13 when Satako pushed K1 off the bridge that that was not the first time she had done something like that.

Kisuke06

2006-09-27, 17:56

This episode was just great, IMO. Keiichi remambering what he had done in other arcs was rather surprising, I never tought something like that could happen. And after reading this thread, Tatarigoroshi-hen makes more sense.

Hm... I still need to read the tips of this episode.

Hopeful Death

2006-09-27, 19:28

Do cigarettes usually sink in water immediately?

I mean, Oishi's cigarette at the end there.

Just something weird I noticed. I'm not a smoker so...

Sinestra

2006-09-27, 19:52

WOW talk about a mind fuck i was glued to my screen the entire time. WHen Rika had that talk with K1 and he remebered the other timeline i freaked out as well. So many things make sense yet some im still trying to get my mind around. I can saftely assume that Rika is Oyashiro-sama?

Rena has just lost and i hope they find her and snap her out of it before some gets that very large sharp object in their skull. the fact that K1 thought that the marker was a needle was frightning the whole series has just got me hooked i love it the twist the turns. Can i assume that a cosmic reset happen and everyones alive?

Deathkillz

2006-09-27, 19:55

Can i assume that a cosmic reset happen and everyones alive?

imo that would be nice but its not gona happen...cause ppl are evil like that :heh:

Sinestra

2006-09-27, 20:01

imo that would be nice but its not gona happen...cause ppl are evil like that :heh:

One can have hope but i think i gave that up after i watched K1 club Mion and Rena to death like they were baby seals. By the way never watch Higurashi and 4am after being up for 29 hours and working a long shift. This ep was even more messed up for me since i was so out of it. i know there is stuff i missed so i have to go back watch it over again

Keiichi no Hibi

2006-09-27, 23:46

I think I liked this episode a lot more than a majority of the previous ones, if not all of them. It just sticks out, for reasons that have been stated many times already :x

And ah... I'm pretty much a n00b here, not having read many of the TIPS yet and having only watched the anime, so I don't know if this has been covered before, but from here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=681486&postcount=129) , which was linked to earlier in this thread, I got the following theory/idea/whatever it would be called.

「......I would like to assault you and give you the shot, ...but I’ve never done it successfully. That’s why I’ve given up doing so forcefully. ......So, I will leave it up to your free will. 」

Off topic to this exact episode, I think, but is Rika possibly making reference to what happened in episode 20, when she tried to give the drug to Shion? If so, does that mean Shion had the virus or parasite or whatever it is?

And if Shion DIDN'T have that, and Rika was just trying to drug and/or get rid of Shion, which makes more sense seeing as if it was a cure I don't think Rika would react the way she did when Shion turned the tables on her, does that mean Rika was also trying to get rid of Rena, when Rika offered the needle to her?

And sorry if this has been stated somewhere else before or the wrong place to post this or redundant to everyone in the know :heh: :x

Chibi_Faerie

2006-09-28, 08:11

Since Rika seems to remember all the 'Past Hinamizawa's' I think it's very likely she was referring to shion or other people as well in the past even perhaps. But as to why she has given up on trying to forcefully inject people, and leave it up to them themselves. You can't force salvation on someone, it has to be accepted and decided by the person themselves. So perhaps what ever is in the syringe has to be taken by the person themselves without being forced, lf forced it triggers something and effects them badly, so they kill themselves like Rika killed herself (And Tomitake killed himself??) I believe Rika really was trying to help Rena. We already know from a previous chapter when she warned Asasaka to go home, I believe (as mentioned before by someone, don't remember who or I'd give them credit) that she foresaw his wife dying while he was away and wanted to warn him and try to help him. So if she is the reincarnation of 'Oyashiro-sama' then we have learned that Oyashiro-sama isn't the cruel and terrible god we have been led to think. Oyashiro is really a kind and caring god, only trying to end the misery, suffering, and violence that Oyashiro's people are going through. So I believe the injection was a cure, for what ever is ailing the hinamizawa residents in each 'Hinamizawa'. I believe that this is a large mix of spiritual supernatural with some sort of logical reason for the murders and instability of the residents minds.

But then again, I could be very very wrong, and most likely am.:heh:

LostBlue

2006-09-29, 14:17

For those interested I've updated POST#72 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=687931&postcount=72) with the rest of Mion's convo with Keiichi + a little more.

Alu

2006-09-29, 21:51

Ah... I'm so late nooo :p

Darn.., I have been so caught up with affairs lately that the best I could do was drop by for a quick peek.. :sad: , luckly after today and specialy after monday I should have much more time to drop by.., hence I hope to catch up :)

This has been moving extreamly fast though.., I already saw a Answer thread related to the questions that are left pending by the end of the Anime.., (which I always figured it would happen)...; so.., what I am about to post probably doesn't mean much to all who have finished the anime and got the answers..

Still.., I found this episode so amazing I will lay down my prespectives on it :)

Continuing where the previous left off.., Rena's delusional disorder is escalating to the next level.. TIPS #125 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=675178&postcount=125), TIPS #126 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=675821&postcount=126), TIPS #127 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=675835&postcount=127), much like Keiichi in Onikakushi-hen..., hence even the smallest insignificant aspect can relate a compleatly total diferent meaning in her prespective...

As we can see on the last notes of this TIP posted by LostBlue :
Then it goes off with Keiichi seeing the white van again at the school yard with Chie-sensei talking to the man named Okonogi. Keiichi sees the Principal and asks him who these men were. The Principal replies they are Landscapers hired by the school. They got lost yesterday taking a shortcut to the school which is relatively easy to get lost here in Hinamizawa if you're not familiar with all the small roads.

The day before, also, Keiichi overhears the Principal and Chie-sensei talking about the envelop the Okonogi Landscapers gave them. The Principal was asking why the number on the envelop won't work which Chie-sensei responds that the envelop is from their old office and they just mistakenly to put it in the wrong envelop.
The True meanings behind of what Rena suspected related to the Sonozaki (or someone else) beeing after her :)

It also was surprising to see that Takano was in fact the Key Trigger for Rena's delusion.., something that I realy did not pay much attention until I read all of LostBlue's TIP : POST #72 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=687931&postcount=72)

As we can see.., the effects tend to start off somewhere (this somewhere likely now beeing Takano).., and then much like a snowball.., they head towards the end we are already familiar with..
I see this as something that slowly starts to comsume you, sort of speak.., so in fact I guess this realy described as a "parisite" in lyrical terms.

Rena is now almost complealy lost to the delusion..., for as we saw when Keiichi tryed to reason with her.., she compleatly transformed herself exactly what Keiichi was in Onikakushi-hen.., and now for Keiichi to have witness this brings me to another point..

And possibily the bigest asnwer I could get off of this episode.. (apart from the ones given to us on Keiichi's flashback.., which explain now Onikakushi-hen)
- What I speak here is.., the way as to how the " Higurashi Universe " revolves.

Since Keiichi had lived exactly the same situation as Rena is now, he through some unexplainable way was able to recall the events that had taken place ( oh and AHA! I right about about the Syringe / Pen-Marker!! :D )..; and as soon as this happened we witness Rika question Keiichi as to how he remembers.

Which means.., Rika from the start always knew, which explains why she always knew she was going to die.
Now, then if we look carefully at the following TIP of Rika speaking with I belive to be Oyashiro-sama's spirit : TIPS #123 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=668620&postcount=123) and TIPS #132 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=681917&postcount=132), we find the answer as to how it is possible for her to remember each arc :

"......You want to know why I'm depressed? ...Because the way I'm going to die has already been decided."

"............But, ......it's, ...no good again."
"Yeah. ......It's no good again. .........So, when is my death date again with this?"
".....................I think it was, the night of June 25th."
"About 1 week after the end of Watanagashi Festival, huh. .........Well, that sounds reasonable."
"Is it..................... my fault after all?"
"Isn't it obvious? Don't you have any sense of self-awareness?"
"...au-au-au."
She's the one who said it first, and yet gets all teary-eyed when you tell her she's right. ...Ah geez, what an irritating one.

"Let's try again. ...I'm sure in the next dice game, there will be times where we'll keep getting 6s too."
-
"...............Soon ......tomorrow is going to be it."

"Hmm? ...............Ahh, you mean our death date?"
"............It ended up the same way this time too."

"I don't know about that. .........It's very similiar, but there are some things that were different too. ......Keiichi, remembered what happened before too."
"......That's impossible. There's no way he could remember, no, there's no way he could know them."

"*giggle*.... The more you say it's absolutely impossible, ...the more it makes one think that this is really a miracle, you know?"

But, if you throw a die 100 times, the minimum and maximum number still ranges from 100 ~ 600.
Even though the more throws you make, the more likely the future will try to converge at one average value, the truth is, the more throws you make, the more possibilities for the future there will be.

If you throw the die 100 times, you'll get about 500 different futures.
Throw 1000 times, and you'll have 5000 different futures.
Won't there also be one ending among them where I would actually finish from this neverending dice game?

......The miracle that Keiichi showed me, it was something that opened my eyes and taught me that it's definitely not a waste of effort to continue throwing the dices.

Don't give in to something like an average value.

So.. the answer is.., Rika in her pursue to fight her destiny re-lives her life all over again all until she can find a way to overthrow Fate.., and this is why there are several arcs.., its the "next dice", as in.. the "next atempts" to make it right..

Unfortunatly.. as we have seen so far.., all have failed ^^

However.., something happened this time that could change it..
Which leads us back to Keiichi remembering what happened in Onikakushi-hen :)

The simple fact that he this time was on the oposite side of the "prespective", and after seeing Rena speak out the exact same words that he did somehow jumped the memory of Onikakushi-hen into his head..; hence his total breakdown as soon as he realises what he had done and how blind he realy was.

Rika now realises this.., and says as I quote :
*taken from episode 25*

Rika : "I can understand how amazing you are"
"I understand that this is a miracle. And right now, you can understand what Ryuuguu Rena is going through"

Keiichi : "Yeah, she's like how I was at that time"
"I will not give up!"
"There's still time!"
"The tragedy can be avoided ! Fate can be contested !"

Rika : "For the will to fight to be this beautiful, this sublime, to even have the power to overturn Fate, is what I have learned here.
That is why I will fight along side you"
"However often it will take, until we reach that future that awaits us."

So making this.., if there ever is a chance to make things right.., its in this arc :)
However I have a feeling that that will not exactly happen ^^

It was a GREAT episode overall.., for all of this and more...

I realy can't leave without mencioning the scene after Keiichi remembering and then hugging Mion.., it was all beyond beautiful.. ;
In fact.., the entire process of Pain as when Keiichi realised what he had done to the apologise was probably one of the best moments of this entire story.

Altough I do not know how it went in the game.., the way I saw it in the Anime was perfect to me..

I have to give a great thanks though for all in charge of the TIP's section.., without them there would be no way I or anyone could have come to realise how the story realy unfolds.

White Manju Bun

2006-09-30, 00:09

Yep, Rena scares the hell outta me again O_O Shion scared me for a while but she's more crazy, Rena with her crazy creepy look at Kei in the dump almost made me jump...

Aliens now...hmmm this anime is so strange but so awesome

and Im late with this post so anything I had to say probably has been covered already XD

Goras

2006-10-02, 06:22

The day after Keiichi has his phone call with Rena, he decides to confront Mion about it as Keiichi didn’t want to believe that Mion was involved in such a conspiracy.

M: 「……What, …what’s up…?」
K: 「Do you know, ……there are people who are trying to revive the Faith in Oyashiro-sama. 」
M: 「…………huh？　What, Kei-chan? What are we talking about?」

This is of course, just me prying.
I wanted to see what reaction Mion will have if I came at her directly.

But, Mion really really looked at me blankly.
……When someone hits the nail on the head, most people can’t keep their cool. Most definitely they will show some, even a little, reaction.

Unless Mion is a gifted actor, ……Mion really, had no connection with the words revival of Oyashiro-sama.

……I decided to come clean.

K: 「Mion. Your house, the Sonozaki Family, holds extreme influence over all of Hinamizawa. …………but is there …some type of secret plan to revive the faith of Oyashiro-sama？」

M: 「……Revive？　Why？」

K: 「Yeah, I mean. The current Oyashiro-sama’s Faith is pretty thin, compared to the ancient times, right? Meaning, ……there are orthodox advocates wanting to bring the faith to the level it used to be like long ago like in Onigafuchi with some secrete plan or something.」

M: 「Wha？　Wait wait, what’s that. What are we talking about?」
K: 「………So really, you have no idea what I’m talking about…？」

M: 「Of course I don’t. What, that’s an interesting story, kinda like those American Best Sellers.」

Mion’s reaction was very natural.
It was impossible that she was pretending to act that she didn’t know when she really knows. ……But, I still continued.

K: 「Well, I mean…… There seems to be people like that in this village. Mion, don’t you know?」

M: 「The Oyashiro-sama Faith, to the level of the Onigafuchi era…？　Is there something good that will come out of that？」
K: 「……Well, ……obviously to the strong fanatical believers, it may have some profound meaning to them……」

M: 「But Kei-chan. No one is going to be happy, going back to the old strict ways. Now in the present, if someone said you can’t leave the village, they won’t be able to make a living, you know.」
K: 「Fo, for example, you know, ……Rika-chan!　It seems that Rika-chan been pampered being that she is said to be the reincarnation of Oyashiro-sama, right? So probably within followers of senior citizen crowd there might be a fanatical group existing……、」

M: 「By Rika-chan’s followers you mean, like Kimiyoshi-no-Ojichan?

Well, …I certainly believe that they have heavy beliefs but, I don’t think you can call that fanatical.」

K: 「No, but there is! People who plan to once again revive the true Oyashiro-sama Faith!」

M: 「Ah ha ha ha ha!
　…Okay okay. We’re going nowhere with this, so let’s say I believe you. And?」
K: 「And, they realized that Oyashiro-sama true identity is an unique local endemic disease in this region, and they are researching to determine the pathogen.」

M: 「Where?

Anyway what’s this endemic disease? What the heck is a pathogen? Stop being so smart.」

I don’t even know what I’m trying to say anymore…

Last night, I was completely inspired by Rena, buying into this crazy story but,……Now that I say it out of my mouth, I begin to understand how inconsistent it is…

M: 「What happen? Did Miyo-san indoctrinate you with these strange talk?」
K: 「……！　…You know?！」

M: 「It’s well known. That person, is an occult mania, so she’s always coming up with these tremendous tall tales. Once in a while there will be someone who takes it seriously, and heavily becomes influenced; it’s pretty famous around here.

I also, long ago, heard her stories, and it was quite fun. Ah ha ha.」
K: 「…………Is that, ……for real？」

M: 「Kei-chan, I’m sure you heard of this somewhere, but this village long ago had quite an unique tradition. And those traditions were rather on the grim side, with strict percepts and strict penalties, and harsh customs, become somewhat famous amongst the occult crowd it seems. Miyo-san is just one of those maniacs.」

K: 「Then……、the story about this village being under the control of mysterious parasites are…,」

M: 「Ha？！　Parasiiites？！

　…Is that, Miyo-san’s new story？」
K: 「What do you mean by new story?」

M: 「I told you, Miyo-san is an occult mania. She’s been researching into the outrageous legends of Onigafuchi village, and with this and that legends she pulls, she analyze them, and has fun creating these fantasies.

That’s why, she has all these other literally works besides that village mind-controlling parasites theorizing stuff. The one I heard long ago was the UFO theory. This was quite interesting as it was pretty consistent!

In the ancient past, a UFO crash lands in the Onigafuchi Marsh, and from there the aliens that came out started this war with the villagers…and it started something like that, kinda like a B-Class SF Horror flick. The one Satoko heard, was the underground citizens theory, I think it was?　With the change in the Earth’s crust, an Underground Kingdom and Onigafuchi became connected, and what happen,

……yes yes、the Princess of the Underground Kingdom and a youngster from the village fell in love, and restored the communion of the society, it was an SF Romeo & Juliet.

And then, her new work seems to be the parasite theory that you heard Kei-chan. Yep yep, I would really want her to collect all these in one book someday, ku ku ku!」

Mion then couldn’t help laughing so hard, she grabs her stomach.

……As I watch this,…I realized what a hollow farfetched tale I took seriously.

There’s no mistake about it.
…I’ve fallen for an outrageous tall tale.

K: 「I’m sory Mion! Honestly answer what I’m about to ask! First, ……are there people trying to revive the Oyashiro-sama Faith?!」

M: 「Nope. Actually, it’s quite the opposite. The Gosanke already have the single will to appeal Hinamizawa steadily to the outside world, and prosper the village. This is still a secret, but our aim for the 21st century is to have a freeway run through here. The Sonozaki Family is currently baiting the topic under the surface. If all goes well, this area will boom with prosperity. Baccha predicts with that, the property value of this mountain forest area will skyrocket and we’ll make a large profit. Although, that large task will have to wait until 21st century, so most likely I’ll be taking over that job.」

K: 「Then……, the people who are digested by outsiders… don’t exists？」

M: 「That’s what I’ve been telling you, they don’t！ The village is already incontinent, what’s the point of making it more so? Presently, the village is now, selling land for development. Kei-chan, your house is precisely the first example of that. Didn’t the villagers welcome you?　The Gosanke are trying to devise more ways to stop the outward flow of youngsters, you know.」

Mion’s words were not clouded.
It had a taste of reality incomparable to Takano’s delusional theory that Rena believes.

……My eyes steadily open with Mion’s words.

K: 「Then, then, …ahmmm, What about this account, as proof that there is a infestation of parasites, within the blood of the citizens of Hinamizawa, the number to something-or-other is abnormally high…,」

M: 「Is that so? Anyway, how did Miyo-san look into that？」
K: 「Because, Takano is a nurse, right? If she wanted to research that she could have done it whenever…」

M: 「And who is going to give blood to support that suspicious study? No one will. Either way, even if she was able to get the blood, where would she do that research? Are you saying that Miyo-san by herself study the blood of several people？」

…Exactly what Mion said.
Because of Takano-san’s occupation as a nurse, I probably was hooked into believing this tall tale. It’s one thing if a Health Care Centre collected large samples of blood, but there is a limit for Miyo-san to individually research this.

……By thinking reasonably like this, …this certainly is not a tale that should be swallowed.

K: 「Then, as another proof of the infestation of the parasites, I heard that no one gets hey fever…！」

M: 「Hey fever is a city disease. Wasn’t that related to exhaust gases? This is Hinamizawa, Kei-chan. Besides, probably, I would except they’re won’t be many people in Okonomiya either with hey fever.」

K: 「ah, ……then, what about this! That there is an Assassin Squadron under the direct control of the Sonozaki Estate Head, and long ago, they even kidnapped the Minsiter’s grandson, right？！」

M: 「Ah ha ha ha！ Wouldn’t that be cool! Ah ha ha ha！」

………I begin to think how nonsensical of the words I’m saying.

……But, yesterday I believed them.
……I was swallowed by Rena’s seriousness.

M: 「It’s true, the minister’s grandson was found around Takaudo. But, that wasn’t us. It wasn’t us, but we acted as if we really did.」
K: 「……That’s hard to understand, please explain.」

M: 「Yeah. During the Dam War, it’s true that the Onigafuchi Last Stand Alliance done some awfully dangerous resistance measures. We did stuff that bordered terrorism. But, at the time, there seemed to be people who used that image. There were fake Alliances that used the name to deceive people to demand money.」

The Onigafuchi Last Stand Alliance were at the time had that aggressive aura of influence.
The possibility for a group to deceive others by using the name for easy black mailing was certainly thinkable.

M: 「Amongst that, there was the kidnapping of the Minister’s grandson. Probably the culprits were pretending to be the Last Stand Alliance to throw the police investigation while they demanded their ransom.

To tell you the truth, that incident was even a surprise for the Alliance! It was the talk of they day, how amazing it was to kidnap the Minister’s grandson. If we ever met the culprits, we talked about how we should praise them.」
K: 「Wait, wait a second! Then the kidnapping of the Minister’s grandson ……had nothing to do with the Onigafuchi Last Stand Alliance?!」

M: 「Yep, not at all.」

Mion frankly said it.
Without any hesitation, as if splitting bamboo, she gave a clear-cut answer.

Even this, if I thought about it was obvious.

To kidnap the Minister’s grandson, and to make direct negotiations with the Minister, is an outrageous big incident.
That, no matter how aggressive they were, is not something the citizens of Hinamizawa can do. It’s obviously the work of a professional criminal!

M: 「…………Well, I stop myself short of saying it. The Sonozaki Estate, in regards to this kidnapping, acted as if they were black curtain behind it all.」
K: 「Acting, for what reason…？」

M: 「…This is、………a secret family tradition within the Sonozaki Estate. Kei-chan, I’ll secretly tell you, but you have to keep this a secret, okay?!

When anything favorable happens to the Sonozaki Estate, we act as if we pulled the strings to everything, it’s a practice of bluffing.」
K: 「………Bluffing,……！　A bluff？！」

M: 「Yeah. If something happens in our favor, it doesn’t even have to be an incident or anything. It could be the good weather, or even the winning lotto number. As if everything happened because the Sonozaki Estate desired it so, we act as if we knew the result.

Then what? It creates this image that we’re an astounding Overlord of all things, right? Meaning that’s it. This is an oral tradition passed generation to generation down to only the Sonozaki Estate Head, a secret tactic of image. A tactical image that makes us larger then we really are.」

K: 「……huhーーーーー…………。…th、…then、hey、during the Dam War didn’t you guys plan on taking over the Ministry of Construction?! What about that?! Moreover, for that purpose you had weapons and did training…！」

M: 「ku ku ku ku! That’s exactly the same thing, Kei-chan. You really think we’ll go through with that stupid plan?

Our greatest objective was to apply this pressure, they might be crazy enough to do it, see what terrifying people are, to give them this illusion was our greatest objective. Mean, this is another strategic image again.」

By making preparations and doing the training, they achieve their goal of applying this pressure, and had no thoughts of actually executing it, …just a Sonozaki Bluff.

Well, of course. Of course…！
There is no way they can occupy the Ministry of Construction, and even if they did, it wouldn’t solve anything, by giving it a little thought that’s obvious!
Say they did successfully occupy the building, the police will then push their way in with great numbers, and in a blink of an eye, suppress them!

K: 「Then, the weapons and the training is……」

M: 「Concerning the weapons……Ahaha、no comment, okay☆　But we did the training. So the Bluff will stand, we really did！

As Kasai-san as our Leader, my father gathered the youngsters, and played war games with a trainer in the Texan desert, then after that we laid-back and went sight-seeing in San Franciscoー. Ahahahahaha.」
K: 「Then, then,……then…………,」

I couldn’t think of anything else. …It was completely, obvious.

I was, no, Rena too.
……We were just being played by Takno-san’s delusional scrapbooks…….

-----------------------------
/end Convo
-----------------------------

Then it goes off with Keiichi seeing the white van again at the school yard with Chie-sensei talking to the man named Okonogi. Keiichi sees the Principal and asks him who these men were. The Principal replies they are Landscapers hired by the school. They got lost yesterday taking a shortcut to the school which is relatively easy to get lost here in Hinamizawa if you're not familiar with all the small roads.

The day before, also, Keiichi overhears the Principal and Chie-sensei talking about the envelop the Okonogi Landscapers gave them. The Principal was asking why the number on the envelop won't work which Chie-sensei responds that the envelop is from their old office and they just mistakenly to put it in the wrong envelop.

Please someone add this to the TIPS thread!

JaoJao

2006-10-11, 11:40

ok im lost, so how was keiichi able to see wut he did in the first question arc? and what keiichi did in the first question arc was all an hallucination by keiichi or a dream? so does that make the first question arc something that never happened? or it happened only in keiichi's dream/mind?

mm i also want to know, doesnt rika die in almost all of the question arcs? so is rika oyashiro-sama? and if she does die in all the question arcs, then this anime is basically about her turning back time trying to live each time she turns back time correct?

Klashikari

2006-10-11, 13:03

i'll try to answer, correct me if i'm wrong.
1) there is no logical explanation to this. basically, rika said it was a "miracle". the same kind of miracle required to defeat the gloomy fate.

2 & 3) yes, most of the "oyashiro-sama" speeches were keiichi's imagination, due his extreme paranoïa. but, things have happened : keiichi discovered the strange curse, he made contact with takano, tomikake and oishi. keiichi DID kill Rena and Mion. keiichi DIED. he was "just" misinterpreting several facts because of his delusions.

4) yes, rika died in all the 6 arc (including the final anime arc,Tsumihoroboshi-hen, which was'nt told by the anime.) Rika is NOT oyashiro-sama, but she is related with it (KJ1980 topic "your questions answered" did mention about who is oyashiro-sama ).

true that the anime has absolutely no "conclusion". though, there are many clues to determine what's going on.

JaoJao

2006-10-11, 15:50

raikage

2006-10-11, 21:48

ohh thanks alot, that kinda helped me, this anime needs a second season, its intresting to see how the japanese portray things like paranoia or how a crazy person would react or do.

also, are all the question arcs somehow 'linked' or something, because keiichii remembered killing mion and rena in the past. do they follow like a timeline, or do each of the question arcs 'reset' back to a certain point or something?

Going off of what I've read in these forums (notably the Your Questions Answered (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=36602) thread):

Every time Rika dies, Oyashiro-sama reboots the world back to a certain point. Oyashiro-sama does not want Rika to die.

Rika retains the memories of all the past occurences, and is trying to find a way to live past June of 1983.

I don't know how Keiichi suddenly remembered one of the past occasions.

It's vaguely alternate-universe, vaguely time-travel.

sasuke13

2006-10-12, 00:07

Klashikari

2006-10-12, 05:39

Sorry for going of the subject a bit, but I wanted to clear something up I couldn't get my mind off of. Since the explanations of the "poison and the injections were said and everything. Back in Watanagashi-hen, is that also the same thing as to what Shion was talking about as "Orge Blood?" Or was it really orge blood?

the pretended "demon blood" within hinamizawa people is just a myth.
by comparing onikakushi-hen, meakachi-hen and tsumihoroboshi-hen characters' insanity, you can obviously conclude they had the same paranoia and delusions. (athough the 3 characters had huge differences in their path to madness (triggers), and their whole life)
the nature of the disease/poison/whatever-is-the-cause-of-the-berserking-state, it's plain real and rationnal. (it was not explained in the anime, but you can guess from the materials you get)

FatPianoBoy

2006-10-12, 14:21

the pretended "demon blood" within hinamizawa people is just a myth.
by comparing onikakushi-hen, meakachi-hen and tsumihoroboshi-hen characters' insanity, you can obviously conclude they had the same paranoia and delusions. (athough the 3 characters had huge differences in their path to madness (triggers), and their whole life)
the nature of the disease/poison/whatever-is-the-cause-of-the-berserking-state, it's plain real and rationnal. (it was not explained in the anime, but you can guess from the materials you get)

I've thought there was something in the water supply from day one. I'm not sure where Hinamizawa's reservoir is, but it may be possible that the volcanic gasses (depending on what the gasses are) leaking into it in small quantities could cause the paranoia and psychosis we've been seeing.

Eishu

2006-10-15, 04:14

It's been some time since I saw this episode, but I still remember it clearly. I give it a nine out of ten for chilling the shit out of me!

Perfect is hard to reach to, so I refrain from that.

blitz1/2

2007-05-16, 23:05

After watching this again, I am confused. If the needle was a marker then what the hell killed Keiichi?

Did he hallucinate himself that he would scratch his own throat?

FatPianoBoy

2007-05-17, 00:30

After watching this again, I am confused. If the needle was a marker then what the hell killed Keiichi?

Did he hallucinate himself that he would scratch his own throat?

Oh~ ho ho ho...
Now that would be telling ;)

I guess you'll just have to watch the show again. And make sure you read the tips this time.

Divini

2009-01-15, 14:34

I probably would've teared up a bit at the school yard scene... if I wasn't laughing so hard at Mion's and Satoko's reactions :rolleyes:

Fernando Hernandez

2009-04-05, 16:33

Okay, I read all the TIPS, and the spoilers, and everything, but I've never really seen this question addressed directly...I haven't watched Kai yet, so I'm not sure if it's answered, but here goes.

In Tatarigoroshi-Hen, after Keiichi kills Satoko's uncle, he becomes paranoid when he realizes two things:

A) the body is not where he buried it
B) Satoko's behaviour implies he's still around, alive

The explanation for A) is no doubt the same that happened for Rena here in Tsumihoroboshi-Hen. They hid the bodies in the same place as Keiichi killed Teppei in Tatarigoroshi-Hen; the forest. According to Mion the bodies they hid with Rena in Tsumihoroboshi-Hen would be in danger of being discovered if they deforested the area, so she used her connections to have them moved because of her friends, and the Hinamizawa philosophy of helping fellow villagers out, right? Well no doubt the same thing happened in Tatarigoroshi-Hen. Rena got paranoid in Tsumihoroboshi-Hen because she thought Mion was against her when she moved the bodies without telling. For Keiichi in Tatarigoroshi-Hen, it caused him to panic - why isn't the body where he hid it? Probably because Mion did the same and moved it. Obviously Mion and Rena knew what he did. He didn't hide it well and you can tell they knew when they covered for him by saying he was at the Cotton Drifting Festival. That brings us to B). The doppleganger Keiichi fears of him that is hanging around isn't real, that was just the cover from Mion and Rena to say he was there. He really wasn't, obviously. But Keiichi is becoming delusional at this point so combined with the missing body and how it seems like Teppei is still alive, he wonders if maybe he has a doppleganger. And as for why Teppei is 'alive' it's only because Satoko herself is delusional and is convinced he's still around abusing her when he's really not. But all these things combine together and result in the Keiichi of the later parts in Tatarigoroshi-Hen.

Tsumihoroboshi-Hen has similar elements of what happened here, even though it's more directly the answer arc to Onikakushi-Hen. But we know that for the mystery of where the bodies went, Mion had the Sonozaki family hide them, just like she probably did for Keiichi in Tatarigoroshi-Hen. And we know that the whole 'doppleganger' issue is still here in this chapter, and all the others, with Takano - whose body should have already been dead by the time of the festival. We know that's because she wasn't really dead and used an already dead body to burn and pretend was her, solving the mystery of how she was at the festival when she should have been dead. So as of that point all the mysteries surrounding missing bodies and dopplegangers, which are a main cause of Keiichi's descent into paranoia in Tatarigoroshi-Hen, can be explained logically.

So here's my question...is it ever explained why Rena is 'found' elsewhere when she's hiding from the guys in the junkyard? Rena's paranoia here is like Keiichi's in Tatarigoroshi-Hen; he thought there was a doppleganger of himself somehow lurking around, but we know he was crazy (he thought he could kill people by wishing it :P ). For Rena, it's belief in Takano's notes, about aliens being the true cause of the Hinamizawa Syndrome. You can specifically see this in this (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=681486&postcount=129) from the TIPS thread about a portion the Anime didn't cover in great detail. So that's why Rena thinks the aliens made a clone to 'replace' her because they intend to get rid of her since she has Takano's notebooks and knows 'the truth'. But what is the real reason that Rena is spotted elsewhere?! Is that ever explained? Is it just like in Tatarigoroshi-Hen, and maybe Mion and co. are covering for Rena and trying to mislead the police? But how do they know she's really at the junkyard, just a good guess because they know she hangs out there? Though in the post I just linked to, Rika knew to find her there, so she could have had a part in that. But I don't think this is ever directly explained.

Basically the question is, who is the Rena that is supposedly found in the quarry, when the real Rena is hiding in the junkyard?

Sorry if this has been asked/answered before, but I've never found the answer to it so I thought I'd ask.

Dante of the Inferno

2009-04-05, 19:39

Most astute of you.

Yes to all of the above. The problems, of course, arise from everyone lying to one another in the first place. All the craziness is centralized from "protection through deception," something that all three of the series address.

interesting that you immediately suspected Takano had a fake body lying around. But then, how would she get access to one...

Eryops

2009-04-06, 10:09

Basically the question is, who is the Rena that is supposedly found in the quarry, when the real Rena is hiding in the junkyard?
It's never clarified. My guess it that the Sonozakis were trying to protect Rena from the police and thus made false reports in order to send them on a wild goose chase. Or it could have been that someone mistook another person for Rena and contacted the police thinking that he had genuinely seen her.

Fernando Hernandez

2009-04-06, 11:53

interesting that you immediately suspected Takano had a fake body lying around. But then, how would she get access to one...

Well it's just so obvious that she's not really dead. I haven't seen Kai yet, but it's pretty obvious from her behaviour throughout all the story arcs that she's a very suspicious person and is likely to be somewhat responsible for all these incidents so far, or if she's not, she at least knows a lot more than she lets on about them.

She clearly fakes her death, particularly because the body they find died before the festival where witnesses clearly saw her, and from her suspicious actions in Tatarigoroshi when she meets up with Keiichi. "You and I never met here"? Well in this world he wasn't a witness to seeing her at the festival but she needed to make sure no one would say they saw her when she was supposed to be dead. Like 'I didn't see your crime and you didn't see mine'. She most likely had an already-dead body prepared in her trunk and was going off to burn it when she ran into Keiichi (or returning from having burned it, if we assume the car that honked its horn when Keiichi was burying Teppei was also Takano which I think it was). That's why the Takano at the festival in the other arcs was the real Takano and there was no such 'doppleganger'; it's the dead Takano that was really the fake.

I don't think it makes sense any other way from the clues up to where the Anime ends, at least. I have read all the TIPS from the storyline the Anime covers and I've read some of the Manga, but nothing really past where the first Anime series ends, so this is all based on what I gather from that.

It's never clarified. My guess it that the Sonozakis were trying to protect Rena from the police and thus made false reports in order to send them on a wild goose chase. Or it could have been that someone mistook another person for Rena and contacted the police thinking that he had genuinely seen her.
I figure it was someone, either the Sonozaki family, or maybe just Mion acting alone, or Rika, etc, Keiichi and co., who sent out a false report to confuse the police. That's probably an area they knew Rena probably wouldn't hide out, at least, even if they didn't specifically know she was in the junkyard. But I had other thoughts too.

From the TIPS I linked to in my previous post we know that Rika somehow found Rena in the junkyard and the scene there ensued. When I think back to her actions in Himatsubushi-Hen, where she cut all the phone lines so Akasaka couldn't phone his wife, it could be similar. Rika knew (or at least strongly suspected) Rena was hiding in the junkyard, so she followed the police there and then made a fake call saying she was spotted somewhere else. The problem with that theory is that if she was calling as some anonymous tipster, well, I forget...was the information that the cops were looking for Rena even released to the public? Because that might be suspicious. Maybe if she said she was Rika Furude she'd be expected to know what was going on? But would they expect her to rat out her friend Rena? Even if she's got a high status in the village and is part of the 3 great families, you'd think they might think twice about a young girl so easily selling out her friend, but I'm not sure. Either way I think somehow, if it wasn't Keiichi and co. as a whole, it could have easily been Rika. But most likely it was a false report by the Sonozaki's because in spite of Rena's delusions they were really trying to protect her, right?

Either way I just wanted to know if they ever legitimately explained the whole 'Rena's doppleganger' thing or if it was just meant to imply that was a false report to lead them off her trail.

Eryops

2009-04-06, 16:09

From the TIPS I linked to in my previous post we know that Rika somehow found Rena in the junkyard and the scene there ensued. When I think back to her actions in Himatsubushi-Hen, where she cut all the phone lines so Akasaka couldn't phone his wife, it could be similar. Rika knew (or at least strongly suspected) Rena was hiding in the junkyard, so she followed the police there and then made a fake call saying she was spotted somewhere else. The problem with that theory is that if she was calling as some anonymous tipster, well, I forget...was the information that the cops were looking for Rena even released to the public? Because that might be suspicious. Maybe if she said she was Rika Furude she'd be expected to know what was going on? But would they expect her to rat out her friend Rena? Even if she's got a high status in the village and is part of the 3 great families, you'd think they might think twice about a young girl so easily selling out her friend, but I'm not sure. Either way I think somehow, if it wasn't Keiichi and co. as a whole, it could have easily been Rika. But most likely it was a false report by the Sonozaki's because in spite of Rena's delusions they were really trying to protect her, right?
Rika was at the dump when they got the report, so it couldn't have been her.

Ithekro

2009-04-06, 16:38

Hanyuu maybe?

Eryops

2009-04-06, 21:41

Hanyuu maybe?
She can't interact with her environment, so no.

There's no need to posit anything complicated. The Sonozakis or a simple case of mistaken identity are both more than adequate for explaining it.