View Full Version : Nanoha Manga Discussion
From one manga to another, the next chapter of the Movie manga has been scanned.
*throws on helmet* Usual rules apply.
Hum quick fact check: we still dont know how Ingvalt ended with the kaiser's memory ?
Hum quick fact check: we still dont know how Ingvalt ended with the kaiser's memory ?
Let's page Frank Herbert in heaven, he might have an answer on the matter, with all that crack about Alia & the Baron Harkonnen, and Duncan & his ghola.
Nina.Wolken
2010-03-02, 05:27
Many thanks Keroko :].
Even if there is not much going on in that chapter, it's always a pleasure to see Nanoha stunned by Fate's beauty. At least that didn't change from the original anime :p.
It's really heartbreaking to see those two tormented to the point they can't even face each other. Fate simply doesn't understand Nanoha behaviour and the reason of her kindness, when Nanoha is too ashamed to see Fate even if she really wants to meet her orz. Come on girls :rolleyes:.
Most funny line was without doubt RH's : "I discovered it. The tactics to win her"
It doesn't say "what", but I bet it implies a lot of "Ka-Boom" :heh:. SLB is not Nanoha's way to make friends, it's RH's way!
Next chapter will be a test for Nanoha and Fate, organized by the TSAB : a match between the two (_ﾟ∀ﾟ)ｱﾊﾊ.
Hum quick fact check: we still dont know how Ingvalt ended with the kaiser's memory ?
I'd bring out the templates, but since we already have a canon explanation...
Basically, genetic engineering was popular those days, and his genes were programmed to pass his memories to his descendants. Guess who.
Next chapter will be a test for Nanoha and Fate, organized by the TSAB : a match between the two (_ﾟ∀ﾟ)ｱﾊﾊ.
If that doesn't scream novel route, then I don't know what would.
Which means...Fate carrying Nanoha is looking very possible.:love:
Kikaifan
2010-03-02, 06:43
Well, back in the StrikerS manga they said that Fate doesn't like to do serious spars with Nanoha ever since she got injured, so I don't expect it'll be anywhere near as intense as the Signum/Nanoha match, but it ought to be fun regardless.
The Vivid artist is good at doing the moe moe character art, but I'll be interested in seeing if they're any good doing an involved action scene.
Nina.Wolken
2010-03-02, 07:48
If that doesn't scream novel route, then I don't know what would.
Which means...Fate carrying Nanoha is looking very possible.:love:
A rematch was more than likely, but I'm glad the manga didn't betrayed my expectations so far :p.
As for the carrying scene, my hopes are higher than ever, now that I noted that the artist for the novel illustrations and the Movie 1st manga is the same. He will probably want to develop what he began years ago in the novel and that's the perfect occasion (o*゜∇゜)o～♪.
isagrimorie
2010-03-02, 07:49
Let's page Frank Herbert in heaven, he might have an answer on the matter, with all that crack about Alia & the Baron Harkonnen, and Duncan & his ghola.
I was actually thinking of the same thing. Genetic memory, except without the funky geriatric Spice drug.
I think.
Well, back in the StrikerS manga they said that Fate doesn't like to do serious spars with Nanoha ever since she got injured, so I don't expect it'll be anywhere near as intense as the Signum/Nanoha match, but it ought to be fun regardless.
The Vivid artist is good at doing the moe moe character art, but I'll be interested in seeing if they're any good doing an involved action scene.
Yeah, I'm looking forward for the artist to draw an action packed scene but I also wonder how they're going to go about it since, as mentioned Fate doesn't like to go do serious mock battles with Nanoha since Nanoha's injury.
A rematch was more than likely, but I'm glad the manga didn't betrayed my expectations so far :p.
As for the carrying scene, my hopes are higher than ever, now that I noted that the artist for the novel illustrations and the Movie 1st manga is the same. He will probably want to develop what he began years ago in the novel and that's the perfect occasion (o*゜∇゜)o～♪.
I think the novel final fight between Nanoha and Fate happens the same way the movie manga is portraying it as well. I know when the two fought in the novel, Fate and Nanoha were no longer true rivals.
Nina.Wolken
2010-03-02, 08:19
I know when the two fought in the novel, Fate and Nanoha were no longer true rivals.
In the Movie manga, at that point, they are no longer rivals. Simply, Fate doesn't understand Nanoha kindness and she has no idea of what friendship is. What is coming up, this "test", looks quite a bit like the duel from the novel to me :uhoh:.
But since I never read the said novel, the comparison stops here :/.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-02, 10:29
Next chapter will be a test for Nanoha and Fate, organized by the TSAB : a match between the two (_ﾟ∀ﾟ)ｱﾊﾊ.
I feel vaguely cheated, now. >>;;;; Damn. I was hoping they'd go into a bit more detail about the fact that the girls haven't formed that bond before going to the fight, but I guess not.
Nina.Wolken
2010-03-02, 10:55
I feel vaguely cheated, now. >>;;;; Damn. I was hoping they'd go into a bit more detail about the fact that the girls haven't formed that bond before going to the fight, but I guess not.
But, that's exactly what that chapter is about. You would have prefer to have two chapters focusing on them worrying and getting stuck in there pitiful state? @.@"
Plus, if the match was announce at the end of this chapter, there is always a possibility that they delay it a bit to show Fate and Nanoha preparations. That's what was done in the novel before their "decisive battle" (the last chapter). The author may want to take the same route this time too, but two slow chapters in a row would be a bit of a shame IMO ,_,.
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 11:14
I hope they don't go with what apparently happens in that novel. Nanoha not winning would suck and show she's still inferior to Fate despite all of her effort to grow while Fate stubbornly remained static. I'm tired of seeing main characters shafted for the sake of a secondary character who happens to be more popular.
Well, if it does turn out like the novel I shall be sure to plug my ears for the resulting squeal from Nina and Demi is sure to be deafening :uhoh::heh:
It's a pattern in Nanoha you should have gotten used to by now. Despite being the titular character, most of the stories of the series revolve around someone entirely different.
Season 1 had an introduction of Nanoha, then shifted to tell Fate's story and never really looked back. The story was all about saving Fate from that point.
A's, with Nanoha's introduction already out of the way, was even worse in this regard, as the entire season was all about saving Hayate.
Vivid is Vivio-centric to begin with, Force will likely revolve around saving Touma and Lily, and she doesn't even have a part in SSX to begin with (though granted, they didn't even call that one 'Nanoha Sound Stage X').
The only season that was actually somewhat about Nanoha was StrikerS. True, it had a major Subaru focus as well, but in StrikerS, instead of going out to solve everyone else's issues, Nanoha has a problem herself this time and has to go out to solve her crisis.
I'm tired of seeing main characters shafted for the sake of a secondary character who happens to be more popular.
Fate is Sasuke. It all makes sense!
Nightengale
2010-03-02, 11:50
The only season that was actually somewhat about Nanoha was StrikerS. True, it had a major Subaru focus as well, but in StrikerS, instead of going out to solve everyone else's issues, Nanoha has a problem herself this time and has to go out to solve her crisis.
Truth to be told, that's not much either. StrikerS, for most parts, tried to pretend that it (( Vivio being a catalyst )) was both Fate and Nanoha's problem.
It was only near the end (( and in the drama CDs )) where it hit closer to home for Nanoha.
Ugh, don't remind me. This really feels like one of those moments where marketing stomped on the director. I mean, the final battles are set up perfectly. Nanoha with her bond with Vivio, and her fear of losing it where Fate has her mother crisis with Erio and Caro which Jail tries to abuse. If they had used the SS material, it would have come out so much stronger, but instead we got NanoFateVivio fanservice which was... pointless most of the time and completely drained these final battles of impact.
*grumble grumble* Marketing shouldn't get involved with scenario writing. *grumble grumble* Especially not important plot points such as these. *grumble grumble*
The only season that was actually somewhat about Nanoha was StrikerS. True, it had a major Subaru focus as well, but in StrikerS, instead of going out to solve everyone else's issues, Nanoha has a problem herself this time and has to go out to solve her crisis.
When you think about it, the character was perhaps portrayed so positively that writers might have struggled to find something that she ought to solve: Vivio and her own awakening to motherhood. Also going the adoption route was the "safest" way to go without brutally sinking more ships.
Now, if writers wanted another Nanoha-centric season, they have to grow some balls and throw her "nakama" in the hands of a batshit insane psychopath (Yes, I am looking at you, Eagle). In the words of green Goblin:
"This is why only fools are heroes. Because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice. "
and
"The only thing they like to see more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying."
EDIT: To those who cries "OH NOES ANGST! DIE PLEASE!", would you please watch the second half of the Trigun series!?
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 12:06
Now, if writers wanted another Nanoha-centric season, they have to grow some balls and throw her "nakama" in the hands of a batshit insane psychopath (Yes, I am looking at you, Eagle). In the words of green Goblin:
"This is why only fools are heroes. Because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice. "
and
"The only thing they like to see more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying."
Quattro tried that already and look what happened to her :heh:
They should focus on her love life. Now that would show some balls.
Quattro tried that already and look what happened to her :heh:
But Quattro is not enough. I am talking about a twisted character like Legato, or the Joker.
I want someone who laugh in front of a max SLB, because s/he have known worse pain. Someone who dares her to kill and manages to do so. Someone whose death's description "Beaten to a pulp" or "Rasputinian Death" doesn't even begin to describe it.
Nightengale
2010-03-02, 12:16
On the issue of overly "positive portrayal", it has always irked me in the sense that Nanoha and co. and especially the main spotlight hoggers are in-series, in-verse, and to viewers as well, molded and overly fashioned as some form of celebrity figures, to the point where it overshadows their military careers.
And that too has seeped into the general atmosphere of everything. It's like the series is trying to force me to smile my way through everything, yet it doesn't work that way.
In a (paraphrased and exagerrated) form of Keroko's words, STOP IT WITH DAT SMILE FACES.
Which is why I like Teana, despite being one of the good guys she manages to screw things up good.
Twice.
In a row.
To this point she's still the only character who stumbled while on her road to success, rather than gliding over it with a green soap covered snowboard.
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 12:25
But Quattro is not enough. I am talking about a twisted character like Legato, or the Joker.
I want someone who laugh in front of a max SLB, because s/he have known worse pain. Someone who dares her to kill and manages to do so. Someone whose death's description "Beaten to a pulp" or "Rasputinian Death" doesn't even begin to describe it.
I'm writing a fanfic with a villain like that! :D
Which is why I like Teana, despite being one of the good guys she manages to screw things up good.
Twice.
In a row.
To this point she's still the only character who stumbled while on her road to success, rather than gliding over it with a green soap covered snowboard.
Teana messes up but in the end she gets where she is through EFFORT AND GUTS! That's the main reason she eventually became my favourite character.
Which is why I like Teana, despite being one of the good guys she manages to screw things up good.
.
Well, a lot in OCC like Teana for that reason (being vaguely imperfect and all). And some of us are struggling to make the Aces shed this shell of perfection and makes them less... "Beam smiling Sues" as someone have put it long ago.
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 12:30
Well, a lot in OCC like Teana for that reason (being vaguely imperfect and all). And some of us are struggling to make the Aces shed this shell of perfection and makes them less... "Beam smiling Sues" as someone have put it long ago.
Well, Hayate's already had a pretty traumatic break the cutie moment, so I think we can cut her some slack for that :heh: Though through StrikerS she's also shown plenty of doubt in her actions and ability as a commander too.
Well, Hayate's already had a pretty traumatic break the cutie moment, so I think we can cut her some slack for that :heh: Though through StrikerS she's also shown plenty of doubt in her actions and ability as a commander too.
Hayate is the funniest to write and talk about, I can give you that.
Fate is Sasuke. It all makes sense!
Fate has an eye that can burn people with black fire?
Fate has an eye that can burn people with black fire?
Her "beautiful sad eyes" melt those who failed their willpower roll.
Estavali
2010-03-02, 13:08
Personally I think the adoption route is to allow the series to keep the "Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha" for future titles.
Staff A: Duh, dude, are we still using 'shoujo' for Nanoha? I mean, she's already a 60 year old lady! That's way pass the shoujo limit!
Staff B: Hey, no problem! She's no longer a shoujo (young woman) but at least she's still a shojo (virgin)! See, what did I tell you? The adoption idea works!
Staff A: .....
Jokes aside, it would do well to make life a lot more dangerous for our beloved characters, so as to make things more interesting. Imho S1, A's and StrikerS try to suggest a sense of urgency but the only things that made one's blood rush are the fights. Things moved too leisurely, I feel, and very often, especially in S1 and A's, the opponents don't try to kill the protagonists. Or if they do, they don't try hard enough. Fate let Nanoha go instead of removing her head off on their first encounter (even though doing so would reduce one potentially pest in the competition for the Jewel Seeds), and we find out in the A's manga that the Knights were holding back in their clashes with the viewtiful duo (though they can be excused since they are reluctant to stain Hayate's life with any killings). Far too often, the protagonists are given amble time to recover, instead of having shit piled upon them one after another, with no breathing space in between. Like a pitched battle where one's troops are surrounded by enemies all-around, out-numbered 10-to-1 (at least) and enemy artillery replaces the radio as the one and only station playing songs 24/7. In other words, a situation that gives one very little to no time to mull around and come up with poetic reasons why we shouldn't just run that pesky opponent through a stake and be done with it.
Most of the time, I feel, the protagonists in Nanoha don't make moral mistakes, or rather, they're not given the chance to make such mistakes. They're always right, from the very beginning! If there's anyone that's wrong, it will always be the ones they're fighting. Yes, the protagonists will sympathise with the opponent(s), especially after knowing more about her/them, but at the end of the day, the outcome would be, "You're wrong and I know you're wrong so you must understand that if I say you are wrong, that means you ARE wrong. Because the show has my name. Now be a good puppy and listen to me and do as I say. Or I will hit you over and over again until you listen or until a Bigger Bad pops up and finally makes you understand that you are wrong all this while and I am in the right no matter what."
The White Devil is as her name suggests. Not black, no grey, just white (even her panties too). It's... kinda sad imho, and really boring if this drags on.
Hayate is the funniest to write and talk about, I can give you that.
With the Battle of the Aces showing us that Hayate is/was the only kid in the team that really acted her age, hopefully it would also inspire fanfic writers to portray a more realistic Hayate as well.
One similarity between Hayate and Teana would be the insecurities about their personal capabilities. Unfortunately for Hayate fans, Teana got over hers, delivered a CMOA and goes on to establish herself firmly as a fan favorite, while Hayate pretty much sat there and angsted. It's very rage-inducing, if you ask me.
And looks like everyone has pretty much said what I wanted to say with this post. Hooray for slow typing!
NorthernFallout
2010-03-02, 13:27
Most of the time, I feel, the protagonists in Nanoha don't make moral mistakes, or rather, they're not given the chance to make such mistakes. They're always right, from the very beginning! If there's anyone that's wrong, it will always be the ones they're fighting. Yes, the protagonists will sympathise with the opponent(s), especially after knowing more about her/them, but at the end of the day, the outcome would be, "You're wrong and I know you're wrong so you must understand that if I say you are wrong, that means you ARE wrong. Because the show has my name. Now be a good puppy and listen to me and do as I say. Or I will hit you over and over again until you listen or until a Bigger Bad pops up and finally makes you understand that you are wrong all this while and I am in the right no matter what." This, oh god so much this. And the paragraph above it. Actually the whole frakking post.
They have all ingredients. They only fail completely at using them.
*snip*
I want your babies.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-02, 13:41
Which is part of why I started to get kind of excited for the movie manga, with the fact that Fate and Nanoha never formed that bond. It seemed to indicate there would still be some serious conflict and nastiness.
But nope, seems it'll all get fixed next chapter because the TSAB arranged the fight. Damn.
I'd bring out the templates, but since we already have a canon explanation...
Basically, genetic engineering was popular those days, and his genes were programmed to pass his memories to his descendants. Guess who.
So it's "A wizard did it" + "Genetic memory".
...
I want someone who laugh in front of a max SLB, because s/he have known worse pain. Someone who dares her to kill and manages to do so. Someone whose death's description "Beaten to a pulp" or "Rasputinian Death" doesn't even begin to describe it.
They may not be nuts as the Joker but the Hückebein in Force could fill that position.
Her "beautiful sad eyes" melt those who failed their willpower roll.
:heh:
NorthernFallout
2010-03-02, 14:28
It's with Force things are looking somewhat better. I just pray they don't screw it up...
So it's "A wizard did it" + "Genetic memory".
Pretty much, yes.
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 15:17
The White Devil is as her name suggests. Not black, no grey, just white (even her panties too).
That's not true! In StrikerS her panties are this weird flesh colour!
All I can say is... screw new stories. Let's get the same thing refed to us, over and over. Let's retell the first story, over and over, letting it end up the same way again. Why do something different this time? Probably because a bunch of fanatics will have a hissy fit if they do something radical like have Fate go dark.
The story of seven arcs, and how they created something, but then once again descended itno doing the same thing over and over again, milking the same cash cow while becoming scared of taking risks. Like EA putting out the same Madden game year after year.
Even Vivid is a repeat. Force actually seems to be somewhat interesting, so if anything gets animated, I'd vote for that.
Changing things about a series is like playing Russian Roulette with the chance of either winning a jackpot, nothing happening, or you shoot your own head off.
Basically, the longer you have a series running, the less you want to take this risk. Because while there is a chance that either you hit it off with an entirely new group of fans and make millions, or you just make another profitable series, there's also the chance that everyone drops the series where they stand out of disgust.
Nanoha actually gets credit for daring such a change, not only making the Magical Girl setting more mature, with StrikerS being the biggest swing in this, but they even dared to make a series filled with girl protagonists and well known for it's Yuri fanservice, and throw a male character as the lead character in one of the manga.
You can say a lot about Nanoha, but you can't say they were afraid to change the formula.
Except for the Nanoha related romance... but then, touching that subject is like stuffing your mouth full of dynamite, load gas tanks in your pockets, take a bath in oil and light a match.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-02, 17:01
Even Vivid is a repeat.
My biggest gripe against Vivid has been and always will be the fact that they're trying too hard to go back to the magical girl formula of season one. The problem is for me, it isn't working half as well when you consider the fact that Mid-Childa is a magical planet. At least back in season one, even with no focus on Nanoha, being a magical girl made her stand out from everyone else until Fate and the TSAB came along.
Changing things about a series is like playing Russian Roulette with the chance of either winning a jackpot, nothing happening, or you shoot your own head off.
Basically, the longer you have a series running, the less you want to take this risk. Because while there is a chance that either you hit it off with an entirely new group of fans and make millions, or you just make another profitable series, there's also the chance that everyone drops the series where they stand out of disgust.
Nanoha actually gets credit for daring such a change, not only making the Magical Girl setting more mature, with StrikerS being the biggest swing in this, but they even dared to make a series filled with girl protagonists and well known for it's Yuri fanservice, and throw a male character as the lead character in one of the manga.
You can say a lot about Nanoha, but you can't say they were afraid to change the formula.
Except for the Nanoha related romance... but then, touching that subject is like stuffing your mouth full of dynamite, load gas tanks in your pockets, take a bath in oil and light a match.
Your product will eventually die if you keep things the same; it'll become stale. You can't count on the same small group of fanatical fans to keep you afloat forever. Those of us in the business world know this concept as: Innovate or Die. Part of what made Nanoha good in the first place is that they innovated and did something new. But as what happens in the business world, management grows fearful of taking risks once a product takes off.
They had potential to do a whole new different universe here, something other than the happy candy one they had before. Something a bit darker. "No, Nanoha, sometimes you really can't save everyone with happy wishes and bigger firepower." Oh what a lesson she would have learned, and grown into a different person. A grittier, more realistic Nanoverse. Or at least a more epic storyline if Fate and Nanoha continued to clash for many years.
Seriously, what was the point of doing this manga so different, if it all ends up the same? I'm putting out the Emo term again, because this latest chapter invalidates all the soul searching that's been done; it's Nanoha without the battles. It's Nanoha 90210: Nanoha whines about Life. Fate whines about life. See how EEEEMMOOOOO we are! These wounds they will not HHEEAAALLL!
Tune in next time, when Nanoha discovers after a night of passion with Fate, that she's pregnant at 9 years old! She whines about how her life has become too difficult, and wishes she could be normal again! Fate whines about how she can't do anything right, and slits her wrists! Oh my, how will these two ever find happiness!?!?!?
Your product will eventually die if you keep things the same; it'll become stale. You can't count on the same small group of fanatical fans to keep you afloat forever.
You'd be surprised. Take the Dragonball media. It changed nothing in its formula and has run since, what? 1984? And it's still selling.
Companies that have a media that sells are twitchy about changing it. Goose that lays the golden eggs and all. Innovate or die is a nice concept on paper, but when it comes to tv series and books rarely applied.
Seriously, what was the point of doing this manga so different, if it all ends up the same? I'm putting out the Emo term again, because this latest chapter invalidates all the soul searching that's been done; it's Nanoha without the battles. It's Nanoha 90210: Nanoha whines about Life. Fate whines about life. See how EEEEMMOOOOO we are! These wounds they will not HHEEAAALLL!
There's a bit of irony in here, because even though you may not like the way they do it in the manga, it is a change, isn't it? Instead of happy joy-joy blasting her way through things from start to finish, Nanoha now has emotional breakdowns. You may not like it, I may not like it, but it sure as hell is a change in pace.
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 18:58
Well, yeah things have changed, but it appears the end result will remain the same. I say if you're going to do something different, go all the way with it! Like, say, how the RahXephon movie starts off as a series recap, but it changes a lot of key points and the ending is completely different from the TV series. It might be risky, but the pay off can be huge. Look at a more recent example: the Rebuild of Evangelion movies by 2.0 are making radical changes, and you know what? In a lot of ways it's far superior to the original! No matter how many times you chance the icing, a vanilla cake is still a vanilla cake. If you don't change the recipe to chocolate, it'll always be the same old cake.
And now I'm hungry.
You'd be surprised. Take the Dragonball media. It changed nothing in its formula and has run since, what? 1984? And it's still selling.
Companies that have a media that sells are twitchy about changing it. Goose that lays the golden eggs and all. Innovate or die is a nice concept on paper, but when it comes to tv series and books rarely applied.
I'll give you a point for that. But Dragonball is for children, going for the lowest common denominator, so it's gonna sell. Nanoha isn't Dragonball.
There's a bit of irony in here, because even though you may not like the way they do it in the manga, it is a change, isn't it? Instead of happy joy-joy blasting her way through things from start to finish, Nanoha now has emotional breakdowns. You may not like it, I may not like it, but it sure as hell is a change in pace.
Mostly because it makes all that soul-searching pointless. The original Season 1 on TV was much better in retrospect, because it got the point home; Nanoha stood up to be strong, and was rewarded. That was the brave, standing up to things, path.
This is just the endless whining "woe is me" path, that seems like it'll end up in the exact same place. So, really, what was the point of all the emo whining and crying? I'd really like that question answered. It was hard enough dealing with the mature 9 year olds; but now we have 9 year olds acting like emo goth 14 year olds. Nanoha needs to start wearing black and start watching Twilight.
Well, yeah things have changed, but it appears the end result will remain the same. I say if you're going to do something different, go all the way with it! Like, say, how the RahXephon movie starts off as a series recap, but it changes a lot of key points and the ending is completely different from the TV series. It might be risky, but the pay off can be huge. Look at a more recent example: the Rebuild of Evangelion movies by 2.0 are making radical changes, and you know what? In a lot of ways it's far superior to the original! No matter how many times you chance the icing, a vanilla cake is still a vanilla cake. If you don't change the recipe to chocolate, it'll always be the same old cake.
And now I'm hungry.
Oh don't get me wrong, I agree that full changes can be a good thing. However, I don't agree that they're the only way to change things. Changing the journey can change just as much as changing the destination.
I'll give you a point for that. But Dragonball is for children, going for the lowest common denominator, so it's gonna sell. Nanoha isn't Dragonball.
*rolls eyes* I can go pick a more mature, yet long running series if you really want me to.
Mostly because it makes all that soul-searching pointless. The original Season 1 on TV was much better in retrospect, because it got the point home; Nanoha stood up to be strong, and was rewarded. That was the brave, standing up to things, path.
This is just the endless whining "woe is me" path, that seems like it'll end up in the exact same place. So, really, what was the point of all the emo whining and crying? I'd really like that question answered. It was hard enough dealing with the mature 9 year olds; but now we have 9 year olds acting like emo goth 14 year olds. Nanoha needs to start wearing black and start watching Twilight.
You are missing the point, it's still a change. Your opinion that S1 is the better of the two is exactly what I mean when I say that changing things is like Russian Roulette. And it is also exactly my point that the Nanoha franchise is not afraid of change.
I hope they don't go with what apparently happens in that novel. Nanoha not winning would suck and show she's still inferior to Fate despite all of her effort to grow while Fate stubbornly remained static. I'm tired of seeing main characters shafted for the sake of a secondary character who happens to be more popular.
Uh, that's not how the novel goes. Nanoha wins, except, she is so weak from the fatigue of the battle that she is unable to hold Feito, resulting in her falling. Fate, while awakened, catches her - which ends in that scene. Which makes a whole lot more sense. Nanoha's efforts to grow should have no way progressed to the point where she was stronger than Fate in a matter of a few weeks/months.
But Fate is not static. No way, no how. She received so much development in that series alone.:rolleyes:
You'd be surprised. Take the Dragonball media. It changed nothing in its formula and has run since, what? 1984? And it's still selling.
Well, it did change its tone from Z.
It have gone from the happy adventures of Goku to "Goku and friends power up, battles evil and levels landscape while doing so."
Companies that have a media that sells are twitchy about changing it. Goose that lays the golden eggs and all. Innovate or die is a nice concept on paper, but when it comes to tv series and books rarely applied.
Franchises that switched ways, atmosphere and devices to tell its stories does exist, I'll name, AGAIN, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. Gothic Horror in part 1, Adventure in part 2, Shounen Journey in part 3, Find the Killer in part 4.
What Kaijo and Estavali are trying to convey is that, for some fans, 3rd Grade Shipteases + White, less White, a bit Grey but not too Black morality + Opponents that hold back a bit + Big Pink Beam of Friendship just doesn't cut it anymore.
Soapbox: I'd have liked even more if Nanoha FALCON PUNCHED Quattro and sent her rolling and crashing through walls, wrecking her glasses and her face. That'd be something that would definitely put the Devil in White Devil. It'd be even more awesome if she Nanoha went through a curb stomp beating leaving her bruised and bleeding all over before doing that on Quattro.
tl;dr: I love Paul Verhoeven twisted humor and ultraviolence, and Tarantino's way to characterize his chars, and have to side with those venting their frustration toward the franchise. And praying that Force walk in the path barely walked by StrikerS but shown by SSX.
EDIT: Vita dying in StrikerS would have left me in shock and made me cherish her memories even more. SHE, and her beating of Nanoha in the first A's ep, was the reason I marathoned the BOTH seasons.
Oh don't get me wrong, I agree that full changes can be a good thing. However, I don't agree that they're the only way to change things. Changing the journey can change just as much as changing the destination.
I guess I just don't want to watch the same thing again. Especially when the story is slightly different, and the ending is the same. "What is the point?"
You are missing the point, it's still a change. Your opinion that S1 is the better of the two is exactly what I mean when I say that changing things is like Russian Roulette. And it is also exactly my point that the Nanoha franchise is not afraid of change.
There is change, and then there is intelligent change. Actually, I'd argue that the movie manga really isn't change at all. It's the same old story, but now with "100% more whining and 100% less battles! Perfect for those of you that like whining and didn't actually come to watch Nanoha for the combat!"
I'm seriously trying to think how they screwed this up so badly. Did they really think adding a brooding edge to Nanoha, turning it into a soap opera, and basically sidelining the battles... was the right way to improve the series and take it in a new direction? And not really a new direction at all, because we'll get a similar ending anyway.
Writer 1:"Hey guys, I think I figured out why Nanoha is so popular! It's not the battles or the courage or conviction that wins through to enemies... it's EMO! The secret is adding more emo-ness to it!"
Writer 2: "But, in order to add that, we'll have to take away something; what do you suggest?
Writer 1: "Eh, let's remove the battles. It's not like they were important anyway."
Writer 2: "True. And we'll have the same ending, despite the illogical nature of making grand changes that ultimately don't mean anything in the long run."
So what was the point?
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 19:49
This is just the endless whining "woe is me" path, that seems like it'll end up in the exact same place. So, really, what was the point of all the emo whining and crying? I'd really like that question answered.
It's simple! Nanoha has always been trying to be Gundam, so having whiny protagonists was the obvious step towards that! :heh:
Though I will say that for a show aimed at adult males, Nanoha pussyfoots around a lot of things. Sure, I don't expect it to be Berserk, but still. Outside of the loli fanservice, there's not much preventing me from showing Nanoha to a 6 year old.
Uh, that's not how the novel goes. Nanoha wins, except, she is so weak from the fatigue of the battle that she is unable to hold Feito, resulting in her falling. Fate, while awakened, catches her - which ends in that scene. Which makes a whole lot more sense. Nanoha's efforts to grow should have no way progressed to the point where she was stronger than Fate in a matter of a few weeks/months.
Oh, I see. That's fine, then. Though how Fate had enough strength to carry Nanoha after losing doesn't quite click, but whatever.
But Fate is not static. No way, no how. She received so much development in that series alone.:rolleyes:
Remember that I love Fate too, Demi, but she was undeniably static for most of the first series. She was "Anything for mother's love!" for most of it, even ignoring her precious familiar when she told her to stop, until the point at the end of the series when Precia rejects her. But even then when Fate confronts her mother she's still "I'll do anything if you love me!" It wasn't until after she was rejected again that she changes in a significant way.
Kikaifan
2010-03-02, 19:57
Soapbox: I'd have liked even more if Nanoha FALCON PUNCHED Quattro and sent her rolling and crashing through walls, wrecking her glasses and her face. That'd be something that would definitely put the Devil in White Devil. It'd be even more awesome if she Nanoha went through a curb stomp beating leaving her bruised and bleeding all over before doing that on Quattro.
tl;dr: I love Paul Verhoeven twisted humor and ultraviolence, and Tarantino's way to characterize his chars, and have to side with those venting their frustration toward the franchise. And praying that Force walk in the path barely walked by StrikerS but shown by SSX.
EDIT: Vita dying in StrikerS would have left me in shock and made me cherish her memories even more. SHE, and her beating of Nanoha in the first A's ep, was the reason I marathoned the BOTH seasons.
Gray morality has to be written into the plot and universe, trying to conjure it out of nothing is a recipe for complete shit. Nanoha brutalizing Quattro when she'd already won wouldn't make Nanoha 'morally complex', it'd make her another fake dark-and-edgy antihero. Welcome to the nineties, excuse me while I retch.
A gray plot is one in which a moral character isn't sure if they're doing the right thing. It is distinct from making the character amoral.
Oh, I see. That's fine, then. Though how Fate had enough strength to carry Nanoha after losing doesn't quite click, but whatever.
Consider when Vivio was hit with the full force of Nanoha's blaster STB - She got up fairly quickly. And even in the original series, Fate was able to fly herself as soon as Nanoha fetched her out of the water. If in the movie manga, Nanoha is able to hold her for a little before falling herself...Fate should come to in time.
Remember that I love Fate too, Demi, but she was undeniably static for most of the first series. She was "Anything for mother's love!" for most of it, even ignoring her precious familiar when she told her to stop, until the point at the end of the series when Precia rejects her. But even then when Fate confronts her mother she's still "I'll do anything if you love me!" It wasn't until after she was rejected again that she changes in a significant way.
If Fate had the will to disobey/abandon her mother simply because some girl she just meet wanted the be friends - the first time they meet...That would be the making of a bad character. Each time Nanoha confronted Fate she wavered just a little bit. To the point where Fate was really starting to think about what she was doing, (their third confrontation) but because Arf told Fate not to listen to some girl that's likely just trying to use her...Fate dove for the jewel shard rather than listen to what Nanoha had to say.
It's not that Fate was not changing as the series progressed, Fate simply had a really strong attachment to her mother - to the point where, despite her better judgment, her mother comes first. Once Fate was defeated, and she found out the truth about herself - rather than brooding over things, she tried to change them. Which is what lead up to Fate's final lines before Precia fell into the abyss. You can consider it Fate's unwillingness to change, however, I look at it in an entirely different light. Fate herself said "Words can not convey feelings. Nothing will change with words" And now, Fate was trying her best to coax Precia into accepting her with words; not actions.
And it was "I'll do anything because I love you" Not the other way around, lol.
“I am not Alicia Testarossa…I may be just a doll you created. However, I…Fate Testarossa…was born and raised by you. I am your daughter! If you wish, I will protect you from anyone or anything in this world. Not because I’m your daughter. But because… you’re my mother!”
A gray plot is one in which a moral character isn't sure if they're doing the right thing.
This! This! This! A thousand times, this!
This is what I wanted to see from the movie manga; an AU that developed where Nanoha doesn't develop into her "might makes right" attitude, and never has to question her beliefs. It's the single biggest growing point for her, that they've so far tap danced around, and never confronted. Nanoha failing to save or convert Fate would be a HUGE growth point, where she is forced to realize that reality is harsh, and not everything is roses if you believe enough.
That's one magical girl trapping that I'd like to see Nanoha shed.
Comartemis
2010-03-02, 20:41
This! This! This! A thousand times, this!
This is what I wanted to see from the movie manga; an AU that developed where Nanoha doesn't develop into her "might makes right" attitude, and never has to question her beliefs. It's the single biggest growing point for her, that they've so far tap danced around, and never confronted. Nanoha failing to save or convert Fate would be a HUGE growth point, where she is forced to realize that reality is harsh, and not everything is roses if you believe enough.
That's one magical girl trapping that I'd like to see Nanoha shed.
Good thing this isn't reality then. Long live the black and white conflicts and the unambiguously heroic characters, may they remain entertaining forever more.
Seriously folks, am I the only one here who actually liked Original Flavor Nanoha? Because all I've been seeing from this fandom recently is whining and bitching about "Nanoha's not realistic enough! Nanoha's not Grim Dark enough! Not enough hopes and dreams are being sacrificed on the alter of realism! We need more popular and much-loved characters to die horrible gruesome deaths for no reason! BetrayerS is the best thing to ever happen to this series!"
I don't know about the rest of you but I get plenty of realism from real life; I don't need any more of it than absolutely necessary in my entertainment, thanks very much.
Good thing this isn't reality then. Long live the black and white conflicts and the unambiguously heroic characters, may they remain entertaining forever more.
Seriously folks, am I the only one here who actually liked Original Flavor Nanoha? Because all I've been seeing from this fandom recently is whining and bitching about "Nanoha's not realistic enough! Nanoha's not Grim Dark enough! Not enough hopes and dreams are being sacrificed on the alter of realism! We need more popular and much-loved characters to die horrible gruesome deaths for no reason! BetrayerS is the best thing to ever happen to this series!"
I don't know about the rest of you but I get plenty of realism from real life; I don't need any more of it than absolutely necessary in my entertainment, thanks very much.
Realism in entertainment is the difference between something you take to pass time/feel better, and something you can respect and think about.
Good thing this isn't reality then. Long live the black and white conflicts and the unambiguously heroic characters, may they remain entertaining forever more.
Seriously folks, am I the only one here who actually liked Original Flavor Nanoha? Because all I've been seeing from this fandom recently is whining and bitching about "Nanoha's not realistic enough! Nanoha's not Grim Dark enough! Not enough hopes and dreams are being sacrificed on the alter of realism! We need more popular and much-loved characters to die horrible gruesome deaths for no reason! BetrayerS is the best thing to ever happen to this series!"
I don't know about the rest of you but I get plenty of realism from real life; I don't need any more of it than absolutely necessary in my entertainment, thanks very much.
You're not the only one. You are however, one of the few from Animesuki.:heh:
Though I think it's mostly because those who did enjoy the original, have long since left this place. I imagine some will come back once the movie is viewable.
Good thing this isn't reality then. Long live the black and white conflicts and the unambiguously heroic characters, may they remain entertaining forever more.
Seriously folks, am I the only one here who actually liked Original Flavor Nanoha? Because all I've been seeing from this fandom recently is whining and bitching about "Nanoha's not realistic enough! Nanoha's not Grim Dark enough! Not enough hopes and dreams are being sacrificed on the alter of realism! We need more popular and much-loved characters to die horrible gruesome deaths for no reason! BetrayerS is the best thing to ever happen to this series!"
I don't know about the rest of you but I get plenty of realism from real life; I don't need any more of it than absolutely necessary in my entertainment, thanks very much.
To a degree, I agree with you; I generally don't like things too dark or realistic, but there is quite a ways Nanoha could go before it reaches "total realistic" porportions. If the movie and movie manga AU's didn't even exist, I probably wouldn't be bringing it up much. But since they redid the original season, not once, but twice, I find myself asking the question, "Why?" I really don't wanna be sitting here 4 years from now, watching them pour more resources into redoing the first season for the 8th time, which has a few changes, but ends up the exact same.
Still, on the sliding scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism, Nanoha is still very much magical girl with the former. You just need to believe in the rightness of your cause, have superior firepower (and all good guys have superior firepower), and you win. They could slide a bit more to the middle and try a bit different. The movie manga, despite it's emo nature, seemed like it could possibly do that, with Nanoha realizing, "Maybe what I believed in wasn't enough after all."
Encountering situations like that, is what really drives a character to think and evolve. Right now, Nanoha is fairly static; the only major growth angles to her character are for her to grow romantically, or for her beliefs to be challenged. Given what we've seen of seven arcs, I don't see the former happening.
Nightengale
2010-03-02, 20:58
Good thing this isn't reality then. Long live the black and white conflicts and the unambiguously heroic characters, may they remain entertaining forever more.
Seriously folks, am I the only one here who actually liked Original Flavor Nanoha? Because all I've been seeing from this fandom recently is whining and bitching about "Nanoha's not realistic enough! Nanoha's not Grim Dark enough! Not enough hopes and dreams are being sacrificed on the alter of realism! We need more popular and much-loved characters to die horrible gruesome deaths for no reason! BetrayerS is the best thing to ever happen to this series!"
I don't know about the rest of you but I get plenty of realism from real life; I don't need any more of it than absolutely necessary in my entertainment, thanks very much.
Hey, I liked it too. But they were 9, even if they don't act 9.
It's not something that they can keep up as they grow older, especially since the lore makes constant references towards background issues ( military budget, straining talent, inability to handle everything, politics, etc ) that everyone EXCEPT the main characters seem to have some form of difficulty with.
You can argue Hayate had some troubles with it, but the visual portrayal of it never did anything above lip-service of so-called 'difficulties' (( while constantly lampshading on how Hayate's gotten herself the best sponsors, deep pockets and human talent that nepotism can buy )) and her wangsting.
Regius was never a laudable man of good faith, but something is wrong when he is shown to have struggled more and put in more effort throughout his blood-stained career towards peace by unethical means more so than the main character who's supposed to be representative of similar struggles, only without the same immoral stance. I'm not asking for BetrayerS to be canon, for that would mean sliding down the cynicism scale to crazy out-of-character levels (( without appropriate build-up at least )), but they could at least pretend that people like Regius/Zest live in the same 'world' as Nanoha and friends.
Regius was never a laudable man of good faith, but something is wrong when he is shown to have struggled more and put in more effort throughout his blood-stained career towards peace by unethical means more so than the main character who's supposed to be representative of similar struggles, only without the same immoral stance.
Gonna second this. I really liked Regius; he was a very complex man, and worked well as an antagonist. He was forced to dirty his hands, because he couldn't prevent deaths; something Nanoha and her kin really never had to face, which does make them seem spoiled.
Poor Regius... if only he was young, female, and had magical powers that could make everything better... magically!
Gonna second this. I really liked Regius; he was a very complex man, and worked well as an antagonist. He was forced to dirty his hands, because he couldn't prevent deaths; something Nanoha and her kin really never had to face, which does make them seem spoiled.
Poor Rein, you'll forever be forgotten. You don't matter, as there is loli-replacement.
Comartemis
2010-03-02, 21:08
Realism in entertainment is the difference between something you take to pass time/feel better, and something you can respect and think about.
You say that as if entertainment value and respect are mutually exclusive. I say entertainment value is a reason to respect a show all on its' own.
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 21:11
I have no problem with the first season either. The first season is what made me like the franchise, after all. It's just with this movie manga, it had promises of being different, and all the emoness indicated that it would be more dramatic, but they haven't followed through with that as best as they could. That's what I kinda take issue with, though it doesn't really matter since this is just a manga and doesn't require the time and effort a 13 episode series requires.
TheShinySword
2010-03-02, 21:16
I have no issue with season 1. They just need to stop redoing it. Seriously if you're going to stuff more of the same down my throat at least have the decency to make it new more of the same (which is why I'm somewhat entertained by vivid).
If you consider that everyone originally thought the movie manga was simply there to fill in pieces for the animated movie...This new development has to at least be better than that. I wasn't sure how the movie manga was going to get to the befriending, but I was sure it was going to happen. So many things pointed in that direction, despite the previous chapter seeming so dramatic.
If the movie manga really is supposed to be a remake of the novel, then it makes perfect sense.
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 21:26
Then why is it called the Movie 1st manga and not the novel manga? At least it being supplementary material for the movie would make sense and be far more acceptable than misleading us by saying "Hey, it's the movie 1st manga, but now it's going to be different from the movie, and now it's going to end up the same anyways!"
At least all the Evangelion spin off mangas had the decency to be straight up AUs (save for the official adaptation).
How else would it end? Come on now, people didn't honestly think it would end with Nanoha and Fate never being friends, did they?
However, aside from the ending. Everything else is very much different.
And I imagine it's not the novel manga because...well, that would be confusing. Besides, it was being released during/around the movies release date. Even the animated movie took some content from the novels, as well as the sound stages.
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 21:41
I didn't say to have them not become friends, but they could have still done it much differently with all kinds of potential consequences and such.
At any rate, the manga is pretty waist deep in false advertising. I'd call it wasted potential, but that doesn't mean I suggest writing it off completely.
... At least it's art is easier to swallow than Vivid's :uhoh:
RadiantBeam
2010-03-02, 21:50
At any rate, the manga is pretty waist deep in false advertising. I'd call it wasted potential, but that doesn't mean I suggests writing it off completely.
I always knew there was a deeper reason for my intense disliking of the movie manga.
isagrimorie
2010-03-02, 21:52
Fate is Sasuke. It all makes sense!
Whoa, there. I won't go that far.
My two cents in this is just this: I just want a dose of realism to the story with some consequences but NOT grim dark. I still want laughter and a happy ending at the end of the day.
The first season had realism to it if you sit and think about it.
TheShinySword
2010-03-02, 22:20
The first season had realism to it if you sit and think about it.
Yes it did indeed. You don't even have to really think about it all.
Despite what some people seem to think, realism does not mean gritty hardcore world where all dreams die and bad things happen to good people. In fact all stories must have an element of "realism" or the characters and situations are unrelatable and no one will enjoy it.
MGLN doesn't have amazing realism when it comes to certain things (like age appropriate behavior (YMMV)) but there are definitely elements of emotional realism.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-02, 22:38
The first season had realism to it if you sit and think about it.
Well, I'm not saying that the first season didn't have realism. I just wonder why the movie manga went off on such a tangent if it ultimately goes back to exactly how the first season was. It seems like a waste to even develop things the way they did in the manga if they aren't willing to change the outcome.
Well, I'm not saying that the first season didn't have realism. I just wonder why the movie manga went off on such a tangent if it ultimately goes back to exactly how the first season was. It seems like a waste to even develop things the way they did in the manga if they aren't willing to change the outcome.
Gonna agree with this, which is what I've been saying all along: Why change things if it ultimately doesn't matter? People act like Nanoha and Fate have to become friends, and no other result is valid.
I might like to see Fate stay an antagonist longer, or become a morally grey character. Or with Bardiche destroyed, and maybe her magic gone, she kinda becomes a side character who just lives at Nanoha's home. Heh, it might be interesting to see Fate get put on a bus, and Yuuno to move more into a role alongside Nanoha. :P
There are a lot of different outcomes that could make this a truly interesting AU, and not more of the same.
The reality of it is despite some peoples protests, the majority of people want to see Fate and Nanoha get together/share a strong bond. And the director himself seems to really like that plot line as well. Fans of the first season go to watch the movie/read the manga, they're the ones to bolster it's sales. If something happened they totally unexpected and didn't approve of, there would be way more rage than relief. And people complain the manga is too emo, yet their wishes would increase the emo-levels ten-fold. Nanoha might even /wrist before it's conclusion with some of those ideas.
That aside, this movie/manga was tailored for NanoFate fans...It's not a hard concept to grasp. It's not for everyone, but the backbone of the franchise are those very fans.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-02, 23:01
The reality of it is despite some peoples protests, the majority of people want to see Fate and Nanoha get together/share a strong bond.
I know that. Doesn't change the fact that I'm seriously disappointed in the movie manga and feel it's a lot of wasted potential with how they were developing the story and the characters.
I know that. Doesn't change the fact that I'm seriously disappointed in the movie manga and feel it's a lot of wasted potential with how they were developing the story and the characters.
I'm just stating the reason, not trying to justify why you should feel ecstatic about it.
Soapbox: I'd have liked even more if Nanoha FALCON PUNCHED Quattro and sent her rolling and crashing through walls, wrecking her glasses and her face. That'd be something that would definitely put the Devil in White Devil. It'd be even more awesome if she Nanoha went through a curb stomp beating leaving her bruised and bleeding all over before doing that on Quattro.
tl;dr: I love Paul Verhoeven twisted humor and ultraviolence, and Tarantino's way to characterize his chars, and have to side with those venting their frustration toward the franchise. And praying that Force walk in the path barely walked by StrikerS but shown by SSX.
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/3916/20050606a.gif (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/20050606a.gif/)
:rolleyes:
The reality of it is despite some peoples protests, the majority of people want to see Fate and Nanoha get together/share a strong bond. And the director himself seems to really like that plot line as well. Fans of the first season go to watch the movie/read the manga, they're the ones to bolster it's sales. If something happened they totally unexpected and didn't approve of, there would be way more rage than relief. And people complain the manga is too emo, yet their wishes would increase the emo-levels ten-fold. Nanoha might even /wrist before it's conclusion with some of those ideas.
That aside, this movie/manga was tailored for NanoFate fans...It's not a hard concept to grasp. It's not for everyone, but the backbone of the franchise are those very fans.
Actually, you're only seeing one side: Those same fans can also be what's holding it back. Every series has fanatical fans, and every good producer knows you have to be wary of catering to those fans, because you can drive off so many many more. If you want your product to get bigger, you have to appeal to new demographics. You can cater to a niche demographic, or you can appeal to the wider base. One of the mistakes some make is to assume they have to please the niche.
00-Raiser
2010-03-02, 23:50
Well I think we've dwelled on this for too long. The bottom line is some people dislike the movie manga and would have liked it to go its own path, while some people are just fine with what we got.
Lord Pertinax
2010-03-02, 23:53
What did I miss these days? Any info is apreciated...:D
Aaron008R
2010-03-02, 23:54
Actually, from a marketing perspective. Deviating from a niche market isn't done from the get go. Companies would often try expanding their market by first making variations or providing promos for their prospective target demographic. Afterward, they would obtain statistical data and decide on what to do next by the result. They could either go ahead with the expansion or let the promos die out as a 'one-time only' offer.
Large scale money-making is serious business. I can't speak for 7arc's stead, but I assume they are trying the more 'serious' *coughcough* tone during storytelling without alienating the franchise from its end result. One way to call it is testing the waters to see if the tuna would take to liking carp food if the flavor is changed.:p Financially speaking, what 7arcs is doing now will likely be viewed as 'half-assed' by critics but still considered safe as a business move. If they did go grimdark at the drop of the hat then I'd be headdesking until my brains leaked out and wait to see if the idea would be a smashing success or the flop of the century. Instantly taking a big, BIG risk with possible large payback? It may sound good on paper but it would likely get you fired the moment you suggest it to a stable company.:heh:
In their shoes, going ahead recklessly in altering the franchise so much is almost the same as suicide. You do NOT want to lose MILLIONS from a reckless idea that may only sound good from the onset but not get received well when released. Significant alterations to a tried and tested formula more often than not needs concrete statistical figures to back up the decision. Doing so otherwise would often suggest a desperate move of a company on their last legs. Hironobu Sakaguchi's Final Fantasy was meant to be the FINAL (pun intended) game before their company folds and goes kaput. But as you can see, that was one desperation move that paid off (The FF series is one of the freakin biggest monsters in the worldwide game industry). On the other hand, the Nanoha franchise is providing a steady inflow of revenue the way it is now. Deviating too much from the formula cannot be done right away.
Putting what I said above aside, I'm not exactly comfortable with the current direction of the Movie Manga myself. For me, I'm fine with the expected end result with the two becoming friends. But I'm going :eyespin::eyespin::eyespin: trying to figure out how the hell are you supposed to fix up a emotionally destroyed little girl like Fate by blasting her with a giant pink beam of doom.:eyebrow: I just cannot compute how the bloody hell that is suppose to fix things. I lost my dad when I was one year older than Fate. And unlike her, I was in very good terms with my parent. Despite that, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have felt suddenly better if somebody punched me in the face and did an epic friendship speech.:rolleyes: What more with Fate? I'm seriously hoping that they do much more than just the fight with Nanoha to fix her. Wounds stemming from emotional bonds aren't so trivial that you can blast them away so easily with force.
How the hell did my post get this long?!:eyespin:
EDIT:
@00-Raiser: ACK!!!:upset: Sorry! I was on the way of posting this when you raised the stop sign! >_<
I've said pretty much everything I wanted to say. I likely won't be pursuing this matter any more so don't worry. :eyespin:
Actually, you're only seeing one side: Those same fans can also be what's holding it back. Every series has fanatical fans, and every good producer knows you have to be wary of catering to those fans, because you can drive off so many many more. If you want your product to get bigger, you have to appeal to new demographics. You can cater to a niche demographic, or you can appeal to the wider base. One of the mistakes some make is to assume they have to please the niche.
Considering the sales of the movie, I'd say they're hardly holding it back. Per theater, it's nearly on par with the Haruhi movie. And that movie was a HUGE hit.
The NanoFate fans are the kind of fans who will see the movie dozens of times for maximum benefits, and to make sure it does well in the box office. No kind of fanbase is more loyal than character fanbases. And Nanoha and Fate simply have the largest.
If the Nanoha franchise wants to try new things, they shouldn't do it by upseting those fans who came to feel nostalgic about the series they loved - now in movie form with the manga as a bonus. It should be an entirely new production. At least if they want to try some of the crazy plot-lines you have in mind. Change is not bad, but surprising fans with some of the suggestions you had in mind...and nothing good will come from it.
And it's a mistake to think the Nanoha franchise has a niche fanbase. It's niche over here in the states, but certainly not over there.
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 00:00
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/3916/20050606a.gif (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/20050606a.gif/)
:rolleyes:
Oh god. I think I broke something from ROFLing too hard. Someone call a medic!
Ya know, sometimes it's not so much the NF that draws in the crowds as it is the characters. You can't just base a movie's popularity based on the NanoFate factor, and I'm sure you know that the fanbase is hardly composed of only yuri fans. Rather, I'd also add in the Nanoha fans and the Fate fans, those that like the characters rather than whatever relationship the series is about. I mean, I'm certain there are many "Nanoha mai waifu!" and "Fate Daisuki~!" fans that are not yuri fans and still went to see the movie many times. Hell, that $5000 film strip buyer may have gotten for the FATE MOE.
Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but the way it sounds, you're making it seem like the non-NF fans are not as important or as dedicated to the series.
Just sayin'.
EDIT: dammit comar why did you have to ninja me.
00-Raiser
2010-03-03, 00:07
@Demi: Manga is the perfect place to do experimenting, though. Printing manga is a lot cheaper and easier than producing a movie. Look at, say, the My HiME manga. The anime was rather successful, but instead of just adapting that, the manga was pretty much a completely different story using the same elements. And it was awesome (IMO), though granted most anime fans (who happen to be yuri fans) hate it (cuz Yuuichi is the main character), so it certainly also stands as an example of experimenting gone wrong. Then along comes Otome that certainly catered to the ShizNat fans and the anti-Yuuichi people.
... What was the point I was getting at? Anyways yeah, moving on.
Aaron008R
2010-03-03, 00:10
Oh yeah, just to be clearer on what I was commenting on, it was about the talk about whether the change the ending of Nanoha and Fate becoming friends or not because of how the manga went.:heh:
And speaking of which, I wonder when there would be some sweet time between Chrono and Fate in any timeline to be shown in any media... D: Needs more LittleSisterNotRelatedByBloodMOE-*SHOT*
<~ (is a FatexChrono shipper)
Gee I sure hope the next chapter of Force is good.
Aaron008R
2010-03-03, 00:13
The manga series (specially Vivid) needs more Hayate... :T_T:
Everything needs more Hayate.
Yes, the movie too.
No I don't care if it's about the first season. It still needs Hayate.
A Reinforce is fine too.
Considering the sales of the movie, I'd say they're hardly holding it back. Per theater, it's nearly on par with the Haruhi movie. And that movie was a HUGE hit.
The NanoFate fans are the kind of fans who will see the movie dozens of times for maximum benefits, and to make sure it does well in the box office. No kind of fanbase is more loyal than character fanbases. And Nanoha and Fate simply have the largest.
If the Nanoha franchise wants to try new things, they shouldn't do it by upseting those fans who came to feel nostalgic about the series they loved - now in movie form with the manga as a bonus. It should be an entirely new production. At least if they want to try some of the crazy plot-lines you have in mind. Change is not bad, but surprising fans with some of the suggestions you had in mind...and nothing good will come from it.
And it's a mistake to think the Nanoha franchise has a niche fanbase. It's niche over here in the states, but certainly not over there.
Compared to other fandoms, the Nanoha one is small. It simply doesn't have the large following that other ones did, like Haruhi or Ranma 1/2. I know you really want to feel that way, but it's also really hard to see it from your position. Mostly because you spend your time with a lot of other people that feel the exact same as you, and you filter any news through a biased lens; everything comes up what you expect. As people have said, there is more to the series then NanoFate. That's just one hardcore crowd, a vocal minority if you will.
I almost feel it's a disservice to Fate's character to deny her the potential growth she could get from a new direction as well. She went from one object of devotion to another. I think it would actually do her character good, to strike out on her own to find out who she is, rather than simply be someone who clings to others. And hell, show some damn gratitude to Arf for sticking by you and trying to help you.
I almost feel bad for Arf, because she gets sidelined thanks to the NanoFate angle. Although, to be fair, a lot of things seemed to get sidelined for the NanoFate angle, so it seems to do the series more harm than good.
The franchise needs more Hayate at that.
dammit, i got ninja'd two posts at a time
Ya know, sometimes it's not so much the NF that draws in the crowds as it is the characters. You can't just base a movie's popularity based on the NanoFate factor, and I'm sure you know that the fanbase is hardly composed of only yuri fans. Rather, I'd also add in the Nanoha fans and the Fate fans, those that like the characters rather than whatever relationship the series is about. I mean, I'm certain there are many "Nanoha mai waifu!" and "Fate Daisuki~!" fans that are not yuri fans and still went to see the movie many times. Hell, that $5000 film strip buyer may have gotten for the FATE MOE.
Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but the way it sounds, you're making it seem like the non-NF fans are not as important or as dedicated to the series.
Just sayin'.
EDIT: dammit comar why did you have to ninja me.
That's true. However, to make what some people are suggesting reach fruition...It would need to discard of a lot of vital fan favorite scenes. You don't need to be a NanoFate fan to love the bridge scene. It was just the perfect level of sweetness to balance out all of the tragedy from the previous episodes.
@Demi: Manga is the perfect place to do experimenting, though. Printing manga is a lot cheaper and easier than producing a movie. Look at, say, the My HiME manga. The anime was rather successful, but instead of just adapting that, the manga was pretty much a completely different story using the same elements. And it was awesome (IMO), though granted most anime fans (who happen to be yuri fans) hate it (cuz Yuuichi is the main character), so it certainly also stands as an example of experimenting gone wrong. Then along comes Otome that certainly catered to the ShizNat fans and the anti-Yuuichi people.
It's just a short manga made with a focus on the first season. It's not the time or place to experiment, imo. There is nowhere else to go from there. Obviously if another movie is ever made, the animated movie will take priority over the movie manga.
tl;dr, 7Arcs, some of the fans want other development that isn't NF because to them it's getting old, no matter what the NF-ers say.
I say we talk about Veyron's laaaaaaaaarge, pimpin'... gun.
Well, I guess all that can ever be done is focus on NanoFate to be ZOMGAWESOME. It's not like they are doing a manga with a male lead that had everyone upset at first, but now is turning out rather great. I mean, doing new things is scary, so there can't ever be anything but NanoFate; so let's just bury all these strange thoughts of being "different" because that's just plain unthinkable.
^_^
In something with pure focus on Nanoha and Fate from beginning to end, yeah, that's all that can be done.
If you want change, enjoy your Force. I'm merely saying it is silly to hope for it in a manga where all things pointed towards a Nanoha/Fate conclusion.
00-Raiser
2010-03-03, 00:37
It's just a short manga made with a focus on the first season. It's not the time or place to experiment, imo. There is nowhere else to go from there. Obviously if another movie is ever made, the animated movie will take priority over the movie manga.
Then that begs the question of why they didn't just make it a straight up tie in to the movie? Why make it diverge from the movie's storyline? That's where the head scratching comes in.
Anyways, let's shift focus to Force which is new and exiciting! I think Veyrin's pimpin' motor cycle deserves more talk than his gun! Maybe he and Teana will get into an epic motor cycle chase? That'd be pretty sweet like that one part in Advent Children.
In something with pure focus on Nanoha and Fate from beginning to end, yeah, that's all that can be done.
If you want change, enjoy your Force. I'm merely saying it is silly to hope for it in a manga where all things pointed towards a Nanoha/Fate conclusion.
Yeah, it's silly to think of anything different. We have to have the same thing fed to us over and over. I actually find it interesting that Force seems to be better received in the fandom than Vivid, and the latter is a rehash of season 1 as well. It really sounds like the fans are saying something different: We like a male lead, and we like the hints of a hetereo relationship, and we like a slightly darker and more complex plot. Perhaps most are tired of yuri, too.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-03, 00:42
In something with pure focus on Nanoha and Fate from beginning to end, yeah, that's all that can be done.
No one is saying that the focus on Nanoha and Fate wasn't going to be changed. It's just baffling that the movie manga was building itself up the way it was if they were going back to the "insto-bond" between Nanoha and Fate. The idea is that with the way the manga was going, it could have developed differently from how it did in canon. That is the major disappointment for me.
Nightengale
2010-03-03, 00:51
Well, to give some credit to Tsuzuki, I think he's finally realizing that you can only continue on with the same dynamic for only so long. Since he clearly has no intention of letting any pair of them take the next step, but rather maintain the same status quo. Shuffling the female/female dynamics around so that things feel less stale, but doesn't give the impression that the Nanoha franchise is taking a shift towards the uneasy.
Though Vivio/Einhart do feel a little dragged out already.
Then that begs the question of why they didn't just make it a straight up tie in to the movie? Why make it diverge from the movie's storyline? That's where the head scratching comes in.
Novels...novels...novels
And honestly, even though Nanoha and Fate are going to have their final battle, it's for different reasons than the first season. It's not the same thing, it's just something some people don't seem to like. In-fact, the manga honestly serves as a true AU.
Yeah, it's silly to think of anything different. We have to have the same thing fed to us over and over. I actually find it interesting that Force seems to be better received in the fandom than Vivid, and the latter is a rehash of season 1 as well. It really sounds like the fans are saying something different: We like a male lead, and we like the hints of a hetereo relationship, and we like a slightly darker and more complex plot. Perhaps most are tired of yuri, too.
Vivid and the first season are very different so far. It may end the same, but the feel of it is not even close to season 1.
And no, it's not silly to think of something different. It's silly to hope for something different when it's been made blaringly obvious that it won't be different. It is oh so easy to ignore the things you don't like.
No one is saying that the focus on Nanoha and Fate wasn't going to be changed. It's just baffling that the movie manga was building itself up the way it was if they were going back to the "insto-bond" between Nanoha and Fate. The idea is that with the way the manga was going, it could have developed differently from how it did in canon. That is the major disappointment for me.
What can be done within the span of two more chapters? Honestly, chances are it will end in a fassion you won't like. But even so, it's not like you've actually seen the next chapter to know for sure.
Nightengale
2010-03-03, 00:59
If anything, ViviD is closer to A's as to how they're portraying Einhart/Vivio dynamic, not unlike how Fate's exposure to her new world of friends and family. But that's beside the point. Nanoha has always been about the dynamic of relationship between great friends and family alike.
I think ViviD's problem is more of its pacing, which is reminiscent of StrikerS. It's reallllly taking its sweet time with all the Happy Vivio Time and Kingfist.
Vivid and the first season are very different so far. It may end the same, but the feel of it is not even close to season 1.
And no, it's not silly to think of something different. It's silly to hope for something different when it's been made blaringly obvious that it won't be different. It is oh so easy to ignore the things you don't like.
Do we need to drag that picture out that has Vivio and Einhart in Nanoha's and Fate's barrier jackets? :P Vague hints of lesbianism and two very young girls who might like each other more than usual, at an age where they wouldn't normally be thinking that stuff? And it's not like the protagonist has a purple haired girl as one of her friends... or that the protagonist lost her first and second bouts with her rival/love interest...
Prolonging Vivio/Ein is a way of giving in to the NanoFate crowd, giving more moments of sweet tenderness between them... and the manga is suffering because of it. I think a lot of people are realizing how "blegh" the concept is, and are ready for something different. But perhaps we'll just have to disagree. =)
RadiantBeam
2010-03-03, 01:00
What can be done within the span of two more chapters? Honestly, chances are it will end in a fassion you won't like. But even so, it's not like you've actually seen the next chapter to know for sure.
Doesn't change the fact that right now, I fail to understand why the manga was developed so differently from the anime and given such a major turn of events if it was meant to be resolved quickly and cleanly. It's like dangling the carrot in front of a rabbit, and then whacking it with the stick when it gets close enough.
Do we need to drag that picture out that has Vivio and Einhart in Nanoha's and Fate's barrier jackets? :P Vague hints of lesbianism and two very young girls who might like each other more than usual, at an age where they wouldn't normally be thinking that stuff? And it's not like the protagonist has a purple haired girl as one of her friends... or that the protagonist lost her first and second bouts with her rival/love interest...
Prolonging Vivio/Ein is a way of giving in to the NanoFate crowd, giving more moments of sweet tenderness between them... and the manga is suffering because of it. I think a lot of people are realizing how "blegh" the concept is, and are ready for something different. But perhaps we'll just have to disagree. =)
That's because prolonging something is bad. The relationship between Nanoha and Fate had the perfect amount of exposure. It didn't seem forced, and it developed smoothly. And not every pairing is going to work. Obviously a pairing with a much larger fanbase is going to be more profitable than one that's less liked. You don't see me fan-fagging about Vivid, lol.
Vivid is different. It's like a mix of all three seasons. It has the slowww pacing of StrikerS, the family/friend bonding of A's, and the rivalry of the first season. And the cast is hugeeee, regrettably.
Doesn't change the fact that right now, I fail to understand why the manga was developed so differently from the anime and given such a major turn of events if it was meant to be resolved quickly and cleanly. It's like dangling the carrot in front of a rabbit, and then whacking it with the stick when it gets close enough.
The movie manga artist is the same as the novel artist. Put two and two together, and you have the answer.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-03, 01:12
The movie manga artist is the same as the novel artist. Put two and two together, and you have the answer.
I never read the novel, so I couldn't put two and two together. So that little fact flew right over my head, and I never made the connection, if I ever assumed the manga and the novel were even connected in the first place.
That's because prolonging something is bad.
Kinda like prolonging season 1 NanoFate rehash material, right? ;p
I never read the novel, so I couldn't put two and two together. So that little fact flew right over my head, and I never made the connection, if I ever assumed the manga and the novel were even connected in the first place.
I just recently realized this from the most recent chapter. But I'm fairly sure the manga is replicating the novel.
Kinda like prolonging season 1 NanoFate rehash material, right? ;p
It's been years since S1, and it's a new production. And that is what makes it sell.
Vivid is concentrating too much on that aspect...From chapter to chapter, and not giving people any breaks inbetween.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-03, 01:18
I just recently realized this from the most recent chapter. But I'm fairly sure the manga is replicating the novel.
And how is someone like me, who has never read the novel, supposed to know that? You post like I should know what the novel material is, and I don't. I simply assumed that the manga was an honest AU retelling of the first season, unlike the movie.
It's been years since S1, and it's a new production. And that is what makes it sell.
Well, Season 1, and season 2. And StrikerS. And a ton of sound stages between and after. And the A's and StrikerS manga. And Vivid. And the novel. And all the other merchandise.
Yeah, it has been a few months since the latest NanoFate shiptease. :o
Well, Season 1, and season 2. And StrikerS. And a ton of sound stages between and after. And the A's and StrikerS manga. And Vivid. And the novel. And all the other merchandise.
Yeah, it has been a few months since the latest NanoFate shiptease. :o
Oh, NanoFate shiptease makes for a sizable part of the Nanoha fanbase. If it's done right, it will never hurt the franchise. It's all about doing it in moderation~
And how is someone like me, who has never read the novel, supposed to know that? You post like I should know what the novel material is, and I don't. I simply assumed that the manga was an honest AU retelling of the first season, unlike the movie.
I wasnt expecting you know know, but when I mentioned the artist from the movie manga is the same as the novel artist..I thought it would hint in that direction.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-03, 01:29
I wasnt expecting you know know, but when I mentioned the artist from the movie manga is the same as the novel artist..I thought it would hint in that direction.
I must have missed when you made that comment, then, because I never saw anywhere that the novel artist is the same as the manga artist.
Oh, NanoFate shiptease makes for a sizable part of the Nanoha fanbase. If it's done right, it will never hurt the franchise. It's all about doing it in moderation~
I find it amusing, though. They're not in the relationship that the NanoFate niche crowd wants, and never will be. Pretty much, that ship has sailed, so why continue to rehash it? Looks like no one gets a relationship unless to pop out a kid, so if they wanted to do a real next generation and continue Nanoha's genetic line, she'd have to get with a male. Wouldn't surprise me to see a sudden "Oh yeah, Nanoha had a child by Yuuno!" pop up. Sort of a reverse of Goku and Chichi, heh. Nanoha is a shounen series after all, where relationships only matter for the children they can produce...
I must have missed when you made that comment, then, because I never saw anywhere that the novel artist is the same as the manga artist.
I think I said it in the previous page.
I find it amusing, though. They're not in the relationship that the NanoFate niche crowd wants, and never will be. Pretty much, that ship has sailed, so why continue to rehash it? Looks like no one gets a relationship unless to pop out a kid, so if they wanted to do a real next generation and continue Nanoha's genetic line, she'd have to get with a male. Wouldn't surprise me to see a sudden "Oh yeah, Nanoha had a child by Yuuno!" pop up. Sort of a reverse of Goku and Chichi, heh. Nanoha is a shounen series after all, where relationships only matter for the children they can produce...
Because until 7arcs blatantly states they're not a pairing, NanoFate fans will remain content. And 7arcs will never say that, because they know how profitable NanoFate is.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-03, 01:44
I think I said it in the previous page.
Huh, I'll have to go back and reread that. Must have slipped past me somehow.
Future of the franchise or current manga =! shipping business, so could Kaijo and Demi stop discussing that please?
isagrimorie
2010-03-03, 01:57
Are there plans for more manga in the future? Or will they be shifting to animation?
Are there plans for more manga in the future? Or will they be shifting to animation?
Unfortunately we have NO info about it.
That is all in the air for now. You'd think another movie would b in the works, but nothing has been confirmed.
Hey, I liked it too. But they were 9, even if they don't act 9.
It's not something that they can keep up as they grow older, especially since the lore makes constant references towards background issues ( military budget, straining talent, inability to handle everything, politics, etc ) that everyone EXCEPT the main characters seem to have some form of difficulty with.
Quoted and bolder for emphasis.
You can argue Hayate had some troubles with it, but the visual portrayal of it never did anything above lip-service of so-called 'difficulties' (( while constantly lampshading on how Hayate's gotten herself the best sponsors, deep pockets and human talent that nepotism can buy )) and her wangsting.
Regius was never a laudable man of good faith, but something is wrong when he is shown to have struggled more and put in more effort throughout his blood-stained career towards peace by unethical means more so than the main character who's supposed to be representative of similar struggles, only without the same immoral stance. I'm not asking for BetrayerS to be canon, for that would mean sliding down the cynicism scale to crazy out-of-character levels (( without appropriate build-up at least )), but they could at least pretend that people like Regius/Zest live in the same 'world' as Nanoha and friends.
More emphasis.
Soapbox:
I am not asking for GRIMDARK! The seeds for a Not-So-Pink-Nanoverse are already here unless you are blind or decide to conveniently ignore them ("them" being Precia, Regius, SSX, or maybe Force). We are talking about a verse where there are also such things as immoral experiments, wars and child soldiers (Runessa).
prescience
2010-03-03, 05:17
We are talking about a verse where there are also such things as immoral experiments, wars and child soldiers (Runessa).
That's something that has always bugged me about StrikerS... It tries to shift to a more serious setting, but then continues to act as though it's acceptable (if not normal) for kids like Erio and Caro to be serving in the military (even if it is a pink-and-fluffy military like the part of the TSAB that is RF6). And looking at the supplementary materials, it seems that it's pretty much expected for kids to enlist as pre-teens... Teana, Subaru, Ginga, Shari, Alto, Lucino, Griffith -- all of them enlisted at age 13 or earlier.
It would be nice if the movie 'verse were to handle this a bit more realistically, but I'm not holding my breath...
Ottocycle
2010-03-03, 05:29
FYI:
While the artist for the movie manga is indeed the same as the one for the novel insert images (Hasegawa Kouji; 長谷川光司), this is only the latest instalment in his involvement in the franchise. Previously he's worked with Tsuzuki on the A's manga, StS manga and of course the novel.
Given how all the previous three went, he's probably only providing the illustrations to Tsuzuki's input this time as well, and hence the ultimate decision on where to take the movie manga should rest on Tsuzuki yet again, and not Hasegawa.
TLDR: It's anyone's guess where the movie manga will go, since it's still in Tsuzuki's hands. It might go the way of the novel (since it's an untapped AU), or it might not.
Guess this is the time we need the knowledge of a novel reader... No way in hell am I going to buy that novel with that kind of cover art...:heh:
Blank-Mage
2010-03-03, 06:34
Okay, there's no way in hell I can reply to all the conversation I missed without it taking up a page in and of itself. So I'm just going to plow through points.
Sheba! Fate may be Sasuke, but at least Fate doesn't piss me off at every opportunity. (And his motives stopped making sense completely after Itachi.) Moving on, your ideas for a super-depraved villain are interesting, but really, really don't fit with even a darkened Nanoha. You couldn't pull it off without completely overhauling the whole series. Jail had decent amounts of crazy, they just didn't follow up on it. Weaksauce fight against Fate was all he got, sadly.
Raiser! Teane didn't use EFFORT AND GUTS, she used LOGIC AND PLANNING, much to my delight. I like a character that doesn't have to rely on ridiculous shounen power to get through a fight. (Nanoha and Subaru, of course, being the biggest offenders. Their strategy always boils down to "fight, lose, decide not to lose, get stupid power boost, win.")
Kaijo! I wouldn't blame NanoFate for killing Arf, I think Signum played a huge part in that. Vita killed Yuuno in a similar manner. I don't know why you think the NanoFate ship has sailed, and Vivio fills the role of next generation, so what makes you think a Yuuno love child is in any way likely? Besides, we all know that Nanoha will never, ever, acknowledge any relationship as canon. That's why they adopted, so we can have our magical successor without raging the shippers. Oh, and we never tire of yuri. Don't be silly.
Tempest! Was that a Shuffle reference?
Gray morality has to be written into the plot and universe, trying to conjure it out of nothing is a recipe for complete shit. Nanoha brutalizing Quattro when she'd already won wouldn't make Nanoha 'morally complex', it'd make her another fake dark-and-edgy antihero. Welcome to the nineties, excuse me while I retch. A gray plot is one in which a moral character isn't sure if they're doing the right thing. It is distinct from making the character amoral.
That's something that has always bugged me about StrikerS... It tries to shift to a more serious setting, but then continues to act as though it's acceptable (if not normal) for kids like Erio and Caro to be serving in the military (even if it is a pink-and-fluffy military like the part of the TSAB that is RF6). And looking at the supplementary materials, it seems that it's pretty much expected for kids to enlist as pre-teens... Teana, Subaru, Ginga, Shari, Alto, Lucino, Griffith -- all of them enlisted at age 13 or earlier. It would be nice if the movie 'verse were to handle this a bit more realistically, but I'm not holding my breath...
...I love you both.
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 09:34
That's something that has always bugged me about StrikerS... It tries to shift to a more serious setting, but then continues to act as though it's acceptable (if not normal) for kids like Erio and Caro to be serving in the military (even if it is a pink-and-fluffy military like the part of the TSAB that is RF6). And looking at the supplementary materials, it seems that it's pretty much expected for kids to enlist as pre-teens... Teana, Subaru, Ginga, Shari, Alto, Lucino, Griffith -- all of them enlisted at age 13 or earlier.
It would be nice if the movie 'verse were to handle this a bit more realistically, but I'm not holding my breath...
I always wrote this off as Mid kids being mature enough to handle being magical cops and their society reflecting that by making it legal for them. I mean if all kids in real life were as mature and level-headed as Vivio I'm-Not-An-Adult-Just-Yet Takamachi or even just in the ballpark of that status I imagine we'd have a lot more rights than we're allowed currently. And we've seen actual child soldiers in this series (Runessa) being treated very differently in the narrative than the child police officers (people seem to keep forgetting that the TSAB isn't a military organization) who run the show; notice how Runessa's backstory is treated as being tragic, something she had to be rescued from, while the bureau mages we've seen join as kids joined up willingly and have never been shown to regret their decision.
prescience
2010-03-03, 09:52
I always wrote this off as Mid kids being mature enough to handle being magical cops and their society reflecting that by making it legal for them. I mean if all kids in real life were as mature and level-headed as Vivio I'm-Not-An-Adult-Just-Yet Takamachi or even just in the ballpark of that status I imagine we'd have a lot more rights than we're allowed currently.
Granted, the children in the series tend to be more mature than real kids, but allowing them to be law enforcement officers is still pushing it a little far for my liking...
And we've seen actual child soldiers in this series (Runessa) being treated very differently in the narrative than the child police officers (people seem to keep forgetting that the TSAB isn't a military organization) who run the show; notice how Runessa's backstory is treated as being tragic, something she had to be rescued from, while the bureau mages we've seen join as kids joined up willingly and have never been shown to regret their decision.
Point taken, Runessa's case is substantially different from the others. But I still feel that law enforcement isn't something that you can realistically have handled by children, however mature they may be.
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 10:35
To be honest I imagine the examples we've seen so far in this series are the exception more than the rule.
The vast majority of all TSAB mages are stated to be in the D to C-rank range, and judging from Subaru and Teana's performance during their B-rank exam D-ranks probably aren't all that impressive magically speaking. Now if you were in charge of a squad of mages, what would you want working for you: a full squad of D-rank adults, or a full squad of D-rank adults with D-rank kids mixed in?
Personally I'd take the fully adult unit. I may not know as much about military matters as some of the local milotaku but I know that basic infantry units are expected to carry heavy loads (something like 50 lbs of armor/ammo/supplies, isn't it?) over long distances and still be reasonably nimble on their feet when they get into a firefight. Kids who haven't completed their physical development would be very hard-pressed to manage this and they'd never be able to pull it off as well as their adult squadmates. Now granted this doesn't apply for mages as much as it does for modern infantry, but the point stands: kids are not as physically capable as adults, and putting them together in a combat unit will result in the kids slowing down the adults, screwing up the efficiency of the unit, and almost inevitably getting someone killed somewhere along the way.
From this perspective, there are only two reasons the bureau should logically allow kids into the workforce. The first reason is that they're mostly used in non-combat positions (Shari, Alto, Lucino, Griffith...) where physical capability doesn't matter as much and they can take a position the bureau would need to use an adult mage for otherwise. The second reason is that the child in question is a magical prodigy or otherwise possesses a rare skill that makes them useful in spite of being physically weaker than an adult mage (or being a combat cyborg, that works too). This accounts for pretty much all the child mages we see in active combat roles; the Aces, Subaru, Ginga, Teana, Caro and Erio all possess prodigious degrees of magical ability. Even Teana "I'm not special" Lanstar is enough of a prodigy to make it to B-rank without special training and she has her illusion magic, which may not be a Rare Skill but it is definitely unusual.
Lastly, and probably most importantly... when was the last time you saw kids mixed in with the various redshirt squads we see throughout the series? As far as I can remember all the redshirts have always been entirely adult units.
I don't know why you think the NanoFate ship has sailed, and Vivio fills the role of next generation, so what makes you think a Yuuno love child is in any way likely? Besides, we all know that Nanoha will never, ever, acknowledge any relationship as canon. That's why they adopted, so we can have our magical successor without raging the shippers. Oh, and we never tire of yuri. Don't be silly.
Actually, I pretty much agree with you. The fact that we have Vivio is pretty much proof there will be no shipping on the show. The only chance for shipping was to get Nanoha to have a kid to pass her powers on to a new generation. There's still a chance for it, as Nanoha is 25 now so there's the "Christmas" cake angle, as well as a natural woman's urge to have children in her 30's. But they'll probably ignore those angles.
Now, on the matter of child soldiers...
It does seem to be just the prodigies who are serving; the more talented and powerful you are, the younger you get in. And from what we know of Regius's past, there is a shortage of good mages to help with crime and peacekeeping; most good mages are taken by the naval branch, apparently. So the Bureau wants to get it's hands on as many as possible, and thus the reason for allowing children to serve with their families, or enter as young as they want.
It's also interesting to note that Amy, a non-mage, seemed to be working as young as 12 in an AU, so it doesn't solely apply to mages. There must be something in the water, for such young kids to be so mature and good at that age... Maybe all that magic use kinda supercharges the atmosphere and improves the mental acumen of young kids? :P
To be honest I imagine the examples we've seen so far in this series are the exception more than the rule.
The vast majority of all TSAB mages are stated to be in the D to C-rank range, and judging from Subaru and Teana's performance during their B-rank exam D-ranks probably aren't all that impressive magically speaking. Now if you were in charge of a squad of mages, what would you want working for you: a full squad of D-rank adults, or a full squad of D-rank adults with D-rank kids mixed in?
Personally I'd take the fully adult unit. I may not know as much about military matters as some of the local milotaku but I know that basic infantry units are expected to carry heavy loads (something like 50 lbs of armor/ammo/supplies, isn't it?) over long distances and still be reasonably nimble on their feet when they get into a firefight. Kids who haven't completed their physical development would be very hard-pressed to manage this and they'd never be able to pull it off as well as their adult squadmates. Now granted this doesn't apply for mages as much as it does for modern infantry, but the point stands: kids are not as physically capable as adults, and putting them together in a combat unit will result in the kids slowing down the adults, screwing up the efficiency of the unit, and almost inevitably getting someone killed somewhere along the way.
From this perspective, there are only two reasons the bureau should logically allow kids into the workforce. The first reason is that they're mostly used in non-combat positions (Shari, Alto, Lucino, Griffith...) where physical capability doesn't matter as much and they can take a position the bureau would need to use an adult mage for otherwise. The second reason is that the child in question is a magical prodigy or otherwise possesses a rare skill that makes them useful in spite of being physically weaker than an adult mage (or being a combat cyborg, that works too). This accounts for pretty much all the child mages we see in active combat roles; the Aces, Subaru, Ginga, Teana, Caro and Erio all possess prodigious degrees of magical ability. Even Teana "I'm not special" Lanstar is enough of a prodigy to make it to B-rank without special training and she has her illusion magic, which may not be a Rare Skill but it is definitely unusual.
Lastly, and probably most importantly... when was the last time you saw kids mixed in with the various redshirt squads we see throughout the series? As far as I can remember all the redshirts have always been entirely adult units.
Agree on all points, but I would point out that mages don't seem to carry the kind of equipment load that Earth infantrymen do into combat.
Their barrier jackets seem to be about as heavy as regular clothes, communications gear is built into either the device or via telepathy, and their device is the only weapon they seem to carry. Nor do they seem to carry food, water, or other supplies for long stays away from their bases or ships.
I'd still take an adult unit over one of kids all things being equal, but there isn't nearly the kind of disadvantage having them in combat would entail for a real life unit.
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 12:23
Agree on all points, but I would point out that mages don't seem to carry the kind of equipment load that Earth infantrymen do into combat.
Their barrier jackets seem to be about as heavy as regular clothes, communications gear is built into either the device or via telepathy, and their device is the only weapon they seem to carry. Nor do they seem to carry food, water, or other supplies for long stays away from their bases or ships.
I'd still take an adult unit over one of kids all things being equal, but there isn't nearly the kind of disadvantage having them in combat would entail for a real life unit.
I did point that out, but even without a heavy equipment load, physical weakness still isn't something you want to take into a combat zone, especially not a combat zone where melee combat has a good chance of occurring.
Nina.Wolken
2010-03-03, 12:24
Actually, I pretty much agree with you. The fact that we have Vivio is pretty much proof there will be no shipping on the show. The only chance for shipping was to get Nanoha to have a kid to pass her powers on to a new generation.
I'm going to ignore your statement concerning the fact that two women living together, sleeping in the same bed and raising a child together can't be view as possibly gay (orz), to simply remind you that powers in Nanohaverse are not hereditary. Would Nanoha have a child (naturally born), this one may be as deprived of any magic ability as Alicia was.
The only way Nanoha can possibly "pass her powers" is by training the said new generation : her choice of carrier demonstrates that she was and still willing to do so.
Also, you may not have notice it, but Vivio from the moment she was introduced in StS and even more with ViVid currently, ships heavily Nanoha and Fate together.
As they say : There are none so blind as those who will not see :rolleyes:
Rising Dragon
2010-03-03, 12:36
... why exactly are we bringing shipping into this now?
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 12:38
Also, you may not have notice it, but Vivio from the moment she was introduced in StS and even more with ViVid currently, ships heavily Nanoha and Fate together.
As they say : There are none so blind as those who will not see :rolleyes:
Nina, you may not have noticed it, but THIS IS NOT THE RELATIONSHIP THREAD. :frustrated::frustrated::frustrated: Either keep your fanaticism to yourself or go someplace where it's acceptable discussion material. Preferably someplace far away from here.
On the children serving in the TSAB:
At this point i think it would be better to handwave it as genre convention, writers that didnt plan the franchise that far ahead or something, having underaged armed policemen/soldier is not the sign of a functional society IMO.
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 13:00
I find it amusing, though. They're not in the relationship that the NanoFate niche crowd wants, and never will be. Pretty much, that ship has sailed, so why continue to rehash it? Looks like no one gets a relationship unless to pop out a kid, so if they wanted to do a real next generation and continue Nanoha's genetic line, she'd have to get with a male. Wouldn't surprise me to see a sudden "Oh yeah, Nanoha had a child by Yuuno!" pop up. Sort of a reverse of Goku and Chichi, heh. Nanoha is a shounen series after all, where relationships only matter for the children they can produce...
currently scientist (FemNazi) are already researching ways for women to get pregnant without needing a male. Considering the fact that Mid is far more advance in both magic and science then earth. If Nanoha wants to experience experience motherhood including pregnancy she doesn't need Yuuno. Not even for donating some genetic material.
Evil Rick
2010-03-03, 13:01
I forgot to left my review of the latest Vivid chapter lol
Well, funny chapter, for I second when I read "let's go to swim" I feared upcoming fanservice but fortunetly I was wrong, I must admit I loled with the wter cuts stuff but was an interesting view of Nove's training. Growing a bit of friendship between Vivio and Einhart, let's only hope it doesn't falls in cliche. :)
Nina.Wolken
2010-03-03, 13:01
Nina, you may not have noticed it, but THIS IS NOT THE RELATIONSHIP THREAD. :frustrated::frustrated::frustrated: Either keep your fanaticism to yourself or go someplace where it's acceptable discussion material. Preferably someplace far away from here.
I was not the one bringing that matter in this thread, why don't you quote/scold Kaijo instead? :] And there is nothing "fanatic" in my post, I was simply pointing-out Vivio's role, in ViVid notably, in the "shipping" Kaijo was talking about. I've absolutely no intention to extend the discussion further than that.
Also, you're free to skip my post if you don't like it.
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 13:08
That's something that has always bugged me about StrikerS... It tries to shift to a more serious setting, but then continues to act as though it's acceptable (if not normal) for kids like Erio and Caro to be serving in the military (even if it is a pink-and-fluffy military like the part of the TSAB that is RF6). And looking at the supplementary materials, it seems that it's pretty much expected for kids to enlist as pre-teens... Teana, Subaru, Ginga, Shari, Alto, Lucino, Griffith -- all of them enlisted at age 13 or earlier.
It would be nice if the movie 'verse were to handle this a bit more realistically, but I'm not holding my breath...
i look at the kids as exceptions to the rule. They already shown they have the power and the maturity to take on the job so why hold them back?
here is a interesting article on gifted kids form a few years ago.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1653653,00.html
RadiantBeam
2010-03-03, 13:11
... why exactly are we bringing shipping into this now?
Because shipping makes everything better, obviously.
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 13:20
I was not the one bringing that matter in this thread, why don't you quote/scold Kaijo instead? :]
Because it takes two to tango. Kaijo made an observation about the status of NanoFate from a storyline perspective, but then he moved back to the matter at hand. You, on the other hand, immediately jumped down his throat and beat him over the head with "NANOFATE IS CANON AND NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO INTERPRET IT ANY OTHER WAY!" like you shippers always do when confronted with this sort of comment and you made it the whole point of your post.
And there is nothing "fanatic" in my post, I was simply pointing-out Vivio's role, in ViVid notably, in the "shipping" Kaijo was talking about. I've absolutely no intention to extend the discussion further than that.
You're a fanatic because you have a hair-trigger reaction to immediately start arguing with anyone who even hints at the idea that NanoFate isn't canon. And it doesn't matter whether you have any intentions of extending the argument, because other people will do it for you. All it takes to burn a forest down is a spark in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Also, you're free to skip my post if you don't like it.
I intend to, but if people start arguing and derailing the thread because of your comment, you're getting the blame when I ask the mods to deal with the situation.
So, which mangas have updated right now?
ViVid and Movie? ViVid? Movie? Force?
I admit, I haven't looked in this thread much lately, so I missed something.
Is any of it not on Mangafox translated yet?
Just wondering.
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 13:30
Last I checked, ViVid was the most recent update back around middle of February.
Vivid and Movie have the latest chapter available in raw, Force will be updated at the end of this month. And then it'll be monthly. Woohoo!
Evil Rick
2010-03-03, 13:33
Nahhh... I alredy droped Force and The movie 1st manga, Currently I'm only following Vivid.
00-Raiser
2010-03-03, 13:37
I'm going to ignore your statement concerning the fact that two women living together, sleeping in the same bed and raising a child together can't be view as possibly gay (orz)
Not going to argue at length, but I have to point out that no where in Vivid does it show or even suggest that Nanoha and Fate are still sleeping in the same bed. In fact, a mini comic actually says that Fate has her own room in Nanoha's house and that she's more of a constant visitor, not a full time resident.
But before you retort: yes, you're right that they can still be viewed as gay.
currently scientist (FemNazi) are already researching ways for women to get pregnant without needing a male. Considering the fact that Mid is far more advance in both magic and science then earth. If Nanoha wants to experience experience motherhood including pregnancy she doesn't need Yuuno. Not even for donating some genetic material.
Being some one who has actually read the research on that, I'll say that its nowhere close to actually working. It's just a theory, nothing more. Even taking into consideration that Mid Childa is an advanced society, given their stance on cloning and genetic engineering, they might not even legalize such an unnatural procedure.
Evil Rick
2010-03-03, 13:42
Having a roomate of the same genre doesn't make you gay. :heh:
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 13:43
Having a roomate of the same genre doesn't make you gay. :heh:
but sleeping in the same bed :eyebrow: big enough for a orgy.
Not going to argue at length, but I have to point out that no where in Vivid does it show or even suggest that Nanoha and Fate are still sleeping in the same bed. In fact, a mini comic actually says that Fate has her own room in Nanoha's house and that she's more of a constant visitor, not a full time resident.
But before you retort: yes, you're right that they can still be viewed as gay.
Being some one who has actually read the research on that, I'll say that its nowhere close to actually working. It's just a theory, nothing more. Even taking into consideration that Mid Childa is an advanced society, given their stance on cloning and genetic engineering, they might not even legalize such an unnatural procedure.
seems like cloning in Mid is a recent development. is there a law against cloning or just genetic modification/engineering?
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 13:46
ENOUGH ALREADY.
Seriously folks, drop it before I get a mod in here.
Evil Rick
2010-03-03, 13:49
Mmmhh... I guess Comartemis is right, we should stop with this topic before monir comes here and cuts heads off :heh:
00-Raiser
2010-03-03, 13:49
seems like cloning in Mid is a recent development. is there a law against cloning or just genetic modification/engineering?
I don't know, but outlawing such things is usually done because playing God is generally considered something you shouldn't do.
A shipping comment that is in much friendly territory: that's a surprising lack of it in Force. Touma's travelling around with two cute girls, but he doesn't seem pertubed by it at all. Normally you think he'd be stammering and blushing every time Lily smiled at him cutely, but he doesn't. He makes comments about how he's going to protect her like it's a natural thing to do with no subtext behind it.
Well, this is a nice change from the usual "guy becomes an idiot around girls" portrayal a lot of male leads his age tend to have. I imagine this is due to growing up surrounded by Subaru and her friends. He's become desensitized to hot chicks.
... The poor boy!
Sharpens axe....er wait....;)
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 13:55
A shipping comment that is in much friendly territory: that's a surprising lack of it in Force. Touma's travelling around with two cute girls, but he doesn't seem pertubed by it at all. Normally you think he'd be stammering and blushing every time Lily smiled at him cutely, but he doesn't. He makes comments about how he's going to protect her like it's a natural thing to do with no subtext behind it.
Well, this is a nice change from the usual "guy becomes an idiot around girls" portrayal a lot of male leads his age tend to have. I imagine this is due to growing up surrounded by Subaru and her friends.
Friendly but still off-topic. Please move it, Raiser.
For the cloning, I think it's mostly because of the fact that if you screw up, you're basically killing people. If you're successful, well... Think of the emotional problems the clones have once they find out that they aren't who they think they are.
Fate suffered a Heroic BSoD because of it. Erio was berserk for the longest time. Vivio asked Nanoha to kill her because she was a clone.
Ginga, Subaru and the Numbers that were clones really didn't have that problem, of course, they had other problems as combat cyborgs are even MORE frowned upon (and most likely more illegal) than making clones via Project F.
Mostly because you're taking babies and inserting them with cybernetics in hopes of getting something good out of it.
Course, i think Subaru and Ginga didn't mind the fact that they were clones because the person who they were cloned from took them in as her children and raised them and helped them understand everything.
And the Numbers, well, Jail didn't mistreat them, so it wasn't bad. Really, if Precia had treated Fate the way Jail treated the Numbers, then there would have been no way that Nanoha could have convinced Fate to be her friend.
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 13:58
I don't know, but outlawing such things is usually done because playing God is generally considered something you shouldn't do.
if cloning can be done in a safe and effective way (not 1 out of 100 survivor) i really don't see a reason why not.
the problems is we don't know much about Mid culture and society. other then they are very open and built form the wreckage of a older civilization (belkan).
Sharpens axe....er wait....;)
just got here :uhoh: wasn't me filling up the last several pages.
Rising Dragon
2010-03-03, 13:59
I don't know, but outlawing such things is usually done because playing God is generally considered something you shouldn't do.
A shipping comment that is in much friendly territory: that's a surprising lack of it in Force. Touma's travelling around with two cute girls, but he doesn't seem pertubed by it at all. Normally you think he'd be stammering and blushing every time Lily smiled at him cutely, but he doesn't. He makes comments about how he's going to protect her like it's a natural thing to do with no subtext behind it.
Well, this is a nice change from the usual "guy becomes an idiot around girls" portrayal a lot of male leads his age tend to have. I imagine this is due to growing up surrounded by Subaru and her friends. He's become desensitized to hot chicks.
... The poor boy!
Actually I wonder if this might come up later in the story as a plot or character point. Like, perhaps, the reason why he's so willing to protect Lily so devoutly is because its a symptom of Eclipse or part of what Lily did to him when she gave him the bracelet, Divider, and Tome? Something like that. I seem to think it will come up, because he's obviously not acting like Hiro around Lucia.
Friendly but still off-topic. Please move it, Raiser.
And I just made it on-topic. =X
Evil Rick
2010-03-03, 14:06
Sharpens axe....er wait....;)
Suddenly, a chillying sensation run trough all my back until the top of my head. lol
Anyway, speaking of Vivid, when comes the next chapter out?
00-Raiser
2010-03-03, 14:08
Friendly but still off-topic. Please move it, Raiser.
I'm talking about characters exclusively from a current manga and this is the manga thread. How is that off topic?
Anyway, speaking of Vivid, when comes the next chapter out?
Considering that a new chapter just came out, the next one will be in a month.
Suddenly, a chillying sensation run trough all my back until the top of my head. lol
Anyway, speaking of Vivid, when comes the next chapter out?
It's out, it just needs to be translated.
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 14:17
I'm talking about characters exclusively from a current manga and this is the manga thread. How is that off topic?
Point taken.
if cloning can be done in a safe and effective way (not 1 out of 100 survivor) i really don't see a reason why not.
the problems is we don't know much about Mid culture and society. other then they are very open and built form the wreckage of a older civilization (belkan).
...
IMO if cloning was accepted and easily done, Jail or Precia wouldnt have to work secretly (and as a sidenote a mass produced cloned magic user would have make more sense to me as project Einherjar rather than the big cannons we saw).
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 14:58
IMO if cloning was accepted and easily done, Jail or Precia wouldnt have to work secretly (and as a sidenote a mass produced cloned magic user would have make more sense to me as project Einherjar rather than the big cannons we saw).
well precia wasn't interested in making clone of Alicia. What she wanted was Alicia. And Jail was using cloning as he techniques but he actual research was closer to genetic engineering.
the main problem with cloning other magic users is that the magic isn't entirely tie to genetic. Fate was Alicia's clone but Fate is a S class mage while Alicia didn't either have any or not much.
00-Raiser
2010-03-03, 15:04
well precia wasn't interested in making clone of Alicia. What she wanted was Alicia. And Jail was using cloning as he techniques but he actual research was closer to genetic engineering.
the main problem with cloning other magic users is that the magic isn't entirely tie to genetic. Fate was Alicia's clone but Fate is a S class mage while Alicia didn't either have any or not much.
Fate was trained by Linith, though. I'm sure if Alicia was taught, she'd be a great mage too.
Magic is certainly believed to be genetic, or rather, certain skills are. That's why some of the Numbers were cloned to get specific skills, like Ginga, Subaru, and Nove getting Quint's wing road.
Recall that Jail was secretly comissioned to do the Combat Cyborg project by Regius and the TSAB high council. If cloning was ok, then they wouldn't need to get a wanted criminal to do it for them, or the high council could have just made cloning legal.
Jail's cloning was considered illegal due to creating clones who could receive cyborg implants. Cloning children for new mages might seem to be okay, but I think the issue would be that, essentially, you're playing with human life to create weapons.
As far as magic and genetics, that all depends on whether you believe Alicia was E rank because she was never taught, or E rank because she just didn't have much capability for magic. We see Teana and Subaru taking a test to move from C rank to B rank, so I'm more inclined to believe mage ranks are based on tests. You may be smart enough to program a computer, but you actually need to earn the degree to prove it.
If it's natural ability, I would expect to see some "magic-meter" device that you can hook someone up to, in order to tell their potential, and I don't quite see that exact of a device yet. Nanoha and Fate were guessed to be AAA, but later moved up to S+. So either mages can get stronger, or the power readings were just measuring the magical energy of their attacks, and thus their Rank was just guessed at: "With the way he moves, he seems like he could be AAA rank easy!"
I personally think that a mage's overall rank is determined by a test (ie, Teana and Subaru ep1), but that the energy of magical output via spells and attacks can be measured, and assigned rank values based on whatever measurement system they use. So Teana, a B rank mage, can use an AA rank spell (Which she does in one of the training episodes).
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 15:38
Jail's cloning was considered illegal due to creating clones who could receive cyborg implants. Cloning children for new mages might seem to be okay, but I think the issue would be that, essentially, you're playing with human life to create weapons.
As far as magic and genetics, that all depends on whether you believe Alicia was E rank because she was never taught, or E rank because she just didn't have much capability for magic. We see Teana and Subaru taking a test to move from C rank to B rank, so I'm more inclined to believe mage ranks are based on tests. You may be smart enough to program a computer, but you actually need to earn the degree to prove it.
If it's natural ability, I would expect to see some "magic-meter" device that you can hook someone up to, in order to tell their potential, and I don't quite see that exact of a device yet. Nanoha and Fate were guessed to be AAA, but later moved up to S+. So either mages can get stronger, or the power readings were just measuring the magical energy of their attacks, and thus their Rank was just guessed at: "With the way he moves, he seems like he could be AAA rank easy!"
I personally think that a mage's overall rank is determined by a test (ie, Teana and Subaru ep1), but that the energy of magical output via spells and attacks can be measured, and assigned rank values based on whatever measurement system they use. So Teana, a B rank mage, can use an AA rank spell (Which she does in one of the training episodes).
i believed it is a combination of both power and skill (test). Skill you can acquire by practice but power is innate. That is why there is such a shortage of mages.
I thought the tests were to just know where to officially put a mage at.
Fate was already a AAA in power, but they tested her between S1 and A's to get her an official ranking.
Chrono is AA in power in S1 and A's, but AAA-ranking mage, according to the manga.
Take that as you will.
i believed it is a combination of both power and skill (test). Skill you can acquire by practice but power is innate. That is why there is such a shortage of mages.
There is that, too. But also part of the problem, which is explicitly said in a sound stage, is that there is a lack of suitable teachers to raise people's ranks as well. So while skill for magic may be innate, it can also be raised through proper training, which is part of the reason why Nanoha takes so strongly to her profession.
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 15:48
There is that, too. But also part of the problem, which is explicitly said in a sound stage, is that there is a lack of suitable teachers to raise people's ranks as well. So while skill for magic may be innate, it can also be raised through proper training, which is part of the reason why Nanoha takes so strongly to her profession.
isn't that what i just said?
you can increase your skill level with practice and additional training but your power level is pretty much the same once you hit your max potential.
I thought the tests were to just know where to officially put a mage at.
Fate was already a AAA in power, but they tested her between S1 and A's to get her an official ranking.
Actually, that exam was for her license as a temporary Bureau mage, not her mage rank.
Got mine. :D
First time buying one of these. I had no idea they were so thick.
http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/Nanoha/manga/th_CompaceAprilCover.jpg (http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/Nanoha/manga/CompaceAprilCover.jpg)
Vivio stickers and a nifty Saber poster board, too. Yay!
http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/Nanoha/manga/th_CompaceAprilExtras.jpg (http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/Nanoha/manga/CompaceAprilExtras.jpg)
Still eagerly awaiting a scanlation of the Vivid manga.
isn't that what i just said?
you can increase your skill level with practice and additional training but your power level is pretty much the same once you hit your max potential.
Not entirely sure what you mean by this. If you mean "All mages who are a certain rank have the same power level" then it's complicated, because raw power doesn't mean as much as what kind of spell set and abilities they have.
If you mean that each person has a max limit they can't go beyond, I might agree in a general sense, that there is only so much magic a person can hold, ie, SSS. But Even an E rank person can be trained up to SSS rank if they continuously work on it. At least, that's my belief.
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 16:07
Not entirely sure what you mean by this. If you mean "All mages who are a certain rank have the same power level" then it's complicated, because raw power doesn't mean as much as what kind of spell set and abilities they have.
If you mean that each person has a max limit they can't go beyond, I might agree in a general sense, that there is only so much magic a person can hold, ie, SSS. But Even an E rank person can be trained up to SSS rank if they continuously work on it. At least, that's my belief.
up to a certain rank it is all power. Just look at Hayate, she tons of raw power but doesn't have much in the way of control but she is still rank as a SSS mage.
Unless Evan the E rank has SSS power potential he will never be a SSS rank mage no matter how skillful he is.
if E rank mages can be train into S rank mages that easliy there would be a shortage of how level mages or any need for combat cyborg program.
00-Raiser
2010-03-03, 16:13
Got mine. :D
First time buying one of these. I had no idea they were so thick.
http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/Nanoha/manga/th_CompaceAprilCover.jpg (http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/Nanoha/manga/CompaceAprilCover.jpg)
Vivio stickers and a nifty Saber poster board, too. Yay!
http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/Nanoha/manga/th_CompaceAprilExtras.jpg (http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/Nanoha/manga/CompaceAprilExtras.jpg)
Still eagerly awaiting a scanlation of the Vivid manga.
Hm, so it's Chris and not Kris... Regardless, how do you get that out of Sacred Heart anyways?
Page claim for nonsensical nicknames!
Hm, so it's Chris and not Kris... Regardless, how do you get that out of Sacred Heart anyways?
Page claim for nonsensical nicknames!
Here's the simplest, most effective way the nickname makes sense:
Vivio: It's cute!
There you go.
Hm, so it's Chris and not Kris... Regardless, how do you get that out of Sacred Heart anyways?
Page claim for nonsensical nicknames!
I actually prefer Kris to Chris. The former is a bit more exotic as a name for a toy plush rabbit. Hmm, although I wonder, because they also list Einheart as "Einhalt." Don't we have other publications that list her as Einheart? Or was that a translator guess?
prescience
2010-03-03, 16:42
Wow, this thread has moved on quite a bit since I last checked...
Going back a bit:
i look at the kids as exceptions to the rule. They already shown they have the power and the maturity to take on the job so why hold them back?
here is a interesting article on gifted kids form a few years ago.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1653653,00.html
Everyone in this discussion seems to be focusing on the kids' magical abilities. I agree that they are physically/magically stronger than many adult mages. But what I was saying is that I don't think that they necessarily psychologically ready to be put in such situations. While law enforcement isn't the same as serving as a soldier in a war, it's still not the sort of thing you would want to drop a kid into, even if that kid was the most physically capable person on the planet.
One could, as FRS suggested, handwave it as a genre convention. But while that works fine for S1 and A's, it doesn't sit well with me with the genre shift that StrikerS tries to make.
The story could justify the TSAB's willingness to put children in such situations by showing how pressed they are for competent mages, as we saw in Zest and Regius' backstory. That would actually work quite well (going back, once again, to the whole thing of making the setting darker and edgier, I guess). But it isn't presented like that at all.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-03, 16:51
Hm, so it's Chris and not Kris... Regardless, how do you get that out of Sacred Heart anyways?
Page claim for nonsensical nicknames!
Wasn't it always translated as Chris? At least, that's how I always read it. Still trying to figure out how I confused "Einheart" with "Einhart"....
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 16:51
Wow, this thread has moved on quite a bit since I last checked...
Going back a bit:
Everyone in this discussion seems to be focusing on the kids' magical abilities. I agree that they are physically/magically stronger than many adult mages. But what I was saying is that I don't think that they necessarily psychologically ready to be put in such situations. While law enforcement isn't the same as serving as a soldier in a war, it's still not the sort of thing you would want to drop a kid into, even if that kid was the most physically capable person on the planet.
which is why none of the kids are giving independent command. Chrono, Fate, Nanoha was under Lindy's command and Subaru/Teana/Caro/Erio were under Nanoha and Fate's command.
and the TSAB isn't entirely police work as someone mention in the military thread, the TSAB is more jack of of trade organization, with police, military, search and rescue and coast guard all roll into one.
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 16:53
Everyone in this discussion seems to be focusing on the kids' magical abilities. I agree that they are physically/magically stronger than many adult mages. But what I was saying is that I don't think that they necessarily psychologically ready to be put in such situations. While law enforcement isn't the same as serving as a soldier in a war, it's still not the sort of thing you would want to drop a kid into, even if that kid was the most physically capable person on the planet.
It's not just their physical capabilities, we have yet to see a child mage in this series -- hell, we have yet to see any child in this series apart from StrikerS-era Vivio -- who wasn't abnormally mature for their ages. Hayate was living on her own -- responsibly living, at that -- when she was nine for god's sake, and Vivio is mature enough to recognize her own lack of maturity (relative to her parents). Real life kids like that tend to be the ones who get emancipated from their parents and function as adults when they're 15 or whatever. I see no reason to stop such kids from becoming cops if that's what they really want, nor do I see anything morally wrong with it.
Xellos-_^
2010-03-03, 16:56
It's not just their physical capabilities, we have yet to see a child mage in this series -- hell, we have yet to see any child in this series apart from StrikerS-era Vivio -- who wasn't abnormally mature for their ages. Hayate was living on her own -- responsibly living, at that -- when she was nine for god's sake, and Vivio is mature enough to recognize her own lack of maturity (relative to her parents). Real life kids like that tend to be the ones who get emancipated from their parents and function as adults when they're 15 or whatever. I see no reason to stop such kids from becoming cops if that's what they really want.
For Hayate she did nominally have a legal guardian (graham) and presumably considering her physical condition she probably have nurse visit at least once a month if not more frequently.
For Hayate she did nominally have a legal guardian (graham) and presumably considering her physical condition she probably have nurse visit at least once a month if not more frequently.
Last I checked, leaving a kid to live on her own is a good way to get booted out of guardianship. A visit once a month from a nurse isn't exactly what you'd call proper child care either.
Bottomline, any main character in Nanoha is only as childish as the scenario demands. The rest is just a matter of suspending ones disbelief.
Comartemis
2010-03-03, 17:08
For Hayate she did nominally have a legal guardian (graham) and presumably considering her physical condition she probably have nurse visit at least once a month if not more frequently.
True, but unless I missed something she almost never saw Graham in person, and seeing a nurse once or twice a month is not what I would call supervised living. Even more telling, though, think about Hayate's family dynamic with the Wolkenritter. She suddenly has a pack of people hanging out around her house with her, and what role does she almost instinctively fall into? The mother figure. She's always calling the Wolks "my kids" when she talks about them to Fate and Nanoha in the manga and sound stages, or she was the last time I checked.
little hope
http://rghost.ru/1094624/image.png
(i know, understand)
prescience
2010-03-04, 06:24
You'd be better off posting that in the Images thread; this thread is for manga discussion.
amm... but this page from Vivid chapter 10, manga. Not original, of course, but one of the options
That's a joke translation, so don't take it too seriously. Currently in the chapter Ein is too confused how she thinks at all, much less tell Vivio how she feels.
But yeah, it is one of those 'not-so-subtle romantic subtext' scenes.
prescience
2010-03-04, 07:40
Back on topic, is this the first time that we've seen Nanoha use Sacred Cluster? Vivio uses a variant form in Sankt Kaiser mode in StrikerS, but I can't recall seeing Nanoha use the original anywhere...
Nina.Wolken
2010-03-04, 07:58
Back on topic, is this the first time that we've seen Nanoha use Sacred Cluster? Vivio uses a variant form in Sankt Kaiser mode in StrikerS, but I can't recall seeing Nanoha use the original anywhere...
^ Also interested about it. I don't remember any spell or anything called "Sacred" in StS, but then Vivio's device is named "Sacred Heart" (hope I'm right, not too sure) and now Nanoha uses a spell called Sacred Cluster. Is there a link between both? Does anybody know if "Sacred" refer to something special?
@GoldFox : Ein is far from that level of understanding about her own feelings at the moment, we should leave those two some years before to reach that point :heh:.
prescience
2010-03-04, 08:00
I only know of the name because of a translation of a page from one of the StrikerS DVD booklets that describes Vivio's abilities when in Sankt Kaiser form. This is the first time I've seen the ability named in the actual story.
Re: the device name, yes, it is "Sacred Heart" (nicknamed "Chris" for some unfathomable reason :p ). I'm guessing "Sacred" is just a word that sounds cool to Tsuzuki...
this is the first time I see how Nanoha uses this spell. I don't understand, how does it work?
Re: the device name, yes, it is "Sacred Heart" (nicknamed "Chris" for some unfathomable reason :p ). I'm guessing "Sacred" is just a word that sounds cool to Tsuzuki...
Vivio is a clone of someone who is pretty much the Nanoha version of Jesus. Sacred is a theme that goes with that like a charm.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-04, 10:02
Re: the device name, yes, it is "Sacred Heart" (nicknamed "Chris" for some unfathomable reason :p ). I'm guessing "Sacred" is just a word that sounds cool to Tsuzuki...
I thought "Sacred Heart" was just Vivio's play on Raising Heart's name, as a kind of tribute to Nanoha.
Nina.Wolken
2010-03-04, 10:07
Re: the device name, yes, it is "Sacred Heart" (nicknamed "Chris" for some unfathomable reason :p ). I'm guessing "Sacred" is just a word that sounds cool to Tsuzuki...
Thanks for the confirmation, since Vivio's device is not often called by its original name, I began to doubt my memory ^^'. I still find it strange for Nanoha to use a technique called "Sacred" though. First was Devine Buster, now Sacred Cluster and what's next? Holy Blaster? :uhoh:
Edit : one "l" only then orz
RadiantBeam
2010-03-04, 10:10
Holly Blaster? :uhoh:
I think you mean Holy Blaster. :heh: But hey, that would be interesting...
Nanoha: THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
I thought "Sacred Heart" was just Vivio's play on Raising Heart's name, as a kind of tribute to Nanoha.
I think it's both a reference to Vivio's role as God, and Raging Heart. An interesting combination.
00-Raiser
2010-03-04, 10:16
Well, going from divine to sacred isn't much of a leap :heh:
Lord Pertinax
2010-03-04, 14:07
So, anything about force or about the vivid dub?
prescience
2010-03-04, 15:36
Dub? Usually we wait for the anime to be made before thinking that far ahead :heh:
More seriously, Force will only go monthly from next month, so we've still got a bit of a wait ahead of us. No idea about a translation for ViVid chapter 10, though. Hope it's soon... I'm keen to find out exactly what has Nove sniggering so much on page 17... :D
Rising Dragon
2010-03-04, 15:39
He meant the translated version when he said dub. The term's been used in here before in that way, and not just by him.
prescience
2010-03-04, 15:42
Yes, I know what he meant. I was just joking around. Haven't heard "dub" used to refer to a manga translation before, though...
I'm dubbing it in my voice when i read it aloud!
RadiantBeam
2010-03-04, 15:55
Never heard dub used in reference to manga before, myself.
Rub a dub dub, we first need the sub!
Xellos-_^
2010-03-04, 16:01
He meant the translated version when he said dub. The term's been used in here before in that way, and not just by him.
death to Dubs
subs forever
death to Dubs
subs forever
Full Metal Alchemist, Big O, Cowboy Beebop all say 'sup'.
I'm generally a subs man myself, but it all depends on the budget and quality that goes into dubs. El Hazard and Cowboy Bebop were decent dubs. Tenchi Muyo, the first couple of OAV's, were fairly good.
What gives dubs a bad name, is when companies take bad voice actors which don't put in 1/10th the emotion into their voices that the Japanese VA's do.
prescience
2010-03-04, 16:30
death to Dubs
subs forever
Flamebait much? Please let's not get started on that... :upset:
Back on topic, is it just me or does the pic of Klaus and Olivie on page 9 look rather couple-ish? I'm interested to see how this fits in with the images a few chapters back that showed them apparently as adversaries...
It must be pretty heavy for Einhart. It's bad enough for a kid to get transplanted memories from another child. Inheriting memories from an adult man could be pretty bad, in various ways... :uhoh:
RadiantBeam
2010-03-04, 16:37
Full Metal Alchemist, Big O, Cowboy Beebop all say 'sup'.
It really all comes down to a matter of preference, you know? One person's favorite dub could be another person's most hated.
What she said. Anyway, manga.
The comment about Lutecia and Caro slugging it out over Erio got me thinking. Do we have much in the way of information on either of those two's relative capabilities as far as direct combat, rather than via their summons? I can't think of anything either way in either the Force or StrikerS manga, on it. All that comes to mind is Hayate's comment about Caro probably being better than her in that area, but that doesn't say much.
Offhand I would guess Caro would have the advantage, but I'm curious.
Comartemis
2010-03-04, 19:11
If it came down to a fistfight catfight between them, Lutecia probably wins on account of slightly greater reach. Magically speaking... dunno. Lu is pinned around S-rank as opposed to Caro's... what was it, A+ at the end of StrikerS? But on the other hand I don't recall her ever using any non-summoning spells. Caro has Wing Shooter and Alchemic Chain, which isn't much but it's more than Lutecia's shown to have. On the other hand if Lu suddenly shows off a new personal combat spell in ViVid, she probably wins on account of the sheer power difference between her and Caro.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-04, 19:18
If it came down to a fistfight catfight between them, Lutecia probably wins on account of slightly greater reach. Magically speaking... dunno. Lu is pinned around S-rank as opposed to Caro's... what was it, A+ at the end of StrikerS? But on the other hand I don't recall her ever using any non-summoning spells. Caro has Wing Shooter and Alchemic Chain, which isn't much but it's more than Lutecia's shown to have. On the other hand if Lu suddenly shows off a new personal combat spell in ViVid, she probably wins on account of the sheer power difference between her and Caro.
I always simply assumed Lutecia was capable of Wing Shooter and Alchemic Chain like Caro was, and the anime just never gave her a chance to use it.
00-Raiser
2010-03-04, 19:27
Didn't Nanoha teach Caro Axel Shooter after StrikerS?
RadiantBeam
2010-03-04, 19:28
I remember she used some form of Wing Shooter during episode 24 when she and Caro were fighting; she didn't call it by name, though.
heh, Lutecia has shown some shooting magic.
However, i don't remember her using boosting type (though maybe it's because she only was alone with her summons mostly).
Blank-Mage
2010-03-04, 22:23
heh, Lutecia has shown some shooting magic.
However, i don't remember her using boosting type (though maybe it's because she only was alone with her summons mostly).
I'd say she boosted her summons when she went berserk, though. As for fellow people, who can say.
itanshi1
2010-03-04, 22:26
On the children serving in the TSAB:
At this point i think it would be better to handwave it as genre convention, writers that didnt plan the franchise that far ahead or something, having underaged armed policemen/soldier is not the sign of a functional society IMO.
Bit late, but I do have an explanation for that. The TSAB is also responsible for controlling those who need help controlling themselves. There's plenty evidence for this. Just look at each child.
Lord Pertinax
2010-03-05, 00:25
Yes, I know what he meant. I was just joking around. Haven't heard "dub" used to refer to a manga translation before, though...
The problem of having english as second languaje...well at least it was enjoyable.
If it came down to a fistfight catfight between them, Lutecia probably wins on account of slightly greater reach. Magically speaking... dunno. Lu is pinned around S-rank as opposed to Caro's... what was it, A+ at the end of StrikerS? But on the other hand I don't recall her ever using any non-summoning spells. Caro has Wing Shooter and Alchemic Chain, which isn't much but it's more than Lutecia's shown to have. On the other hand if Lu suddenly shows off a new personal combat spell in ViVid, she probably wins on account of the sheer power difference between her and Caro.
I thought it was Lutecia that did Alchemic Chain in StrikerS. And Lutecia has powerful beam energy that's pretty strong. Quick blast snapped through Caro's shields the first time that they met, put Vice in the hospital, and nearly took down Caro during the end of StrikerS.
Bit late, but I do have an explanation for that. The TSAB is also responsible for controlling those who need help controlling themselves. There's plenty evidence for this. Just look at each child.
Taking care of children is one thing, having them serves you as Fast Armed Reaction Team or law enforcing officier is another.
The paradox to me lies in having people not considered mature enough to need legal guardian to enforce the law, it's a wierd to have that kind of configuration in a semi democratic entity (your opinion may vary).
Taking care of children is one thing, having them serves you as Fast Armed Reaction Team or law enforcing officier is another.
Can't help but think of a certain twintail girl in a certain scientific anime who wears an armband and declares, "Jajimento desu no!"
Children acting beyond their years (or having god-like powers)... it's an anime convention that you either accept or run around in circles trying to justify or explain. It goes hand in hand with the (mostly) absent parents. MSLN goes against that convention somewhat by having families and guardians around. But, the way Nanoha's family basically steps aside and allows a nine year old girl to make major life changing decisions on her own, they might as well be absent. And we're supposed to believe that's ok, because she spent a good amount of time being alone when she was even more of a little girl.
But that's ok. I accept the convention and happily indulge myself in it. :D
prescience
2010-03-05, 05:04
Yes, it is a genre/medium convention; I'm well aware of that. My point, though, was that while it works quite well in the more conventional Magical Girl setting that S1 had, I found it somewhat jarring in StrikerS, given the shift to a more "military sci-fi" type of setting. Just saying that I think the story would have worked a bit better if this convention was not invoked for the new characters.
My point, though, was that while it works quite well in the more conventional Magical Girl setting that S1 had, I found it somewhat jarring in StrikerS, given the shift to a more "military sci-fi" type of setting.
I didn't find the change in setting jarring at all. Given the introduction of the military element in the end of S1, it seemed like the progression to a military sci-fi setting was a reasonable one.
As for Erio and Caro, they were essentially being treated like freaks or monsters, so "rescuing" them and nurturing them in an environment where their magic would be useful and beneficial to society is understandable. And they had to have somebody fill the preteen vacancy. :heh:
Nanoha and Fate set the precedent for bringing children into the operations of TSAB as high power, relatively inexperienced mages. So I can go along with the idea that in the nanoverse, it's an accepted reality that children are adept at harnessing techno-magic, and, under the right conditions/supervision, they are allowed to be part of the organization.
prescience
2010-03-05, 06:49
It's not the change in setting I found jarring; it's the fact that the story continues to put children in law enforcement/military positions in the new setting.
And with regard to Erio and Caro, I'm not sure that putting them in this sort of position is realistically a good way of nurturing them. But I guess it would be hoping for too much to expect that level of realism from the story...
EDIT: I hope I'm not coming across as overly negative here. I'm just trying to say that, while I enjoy the story as-is, I would like it more if some things were done a little differently.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-05, 10:55
And we're supposed to believe that's ok, because she spent a good amount of time being alone when she was even more of a little girl.
Actually, if you know a bit of Triangle Hearts 3 history it makes a lot more sense of why the family lets Nanoha do what she does. What with Shiro having been a former bodyguard (and in that universe his wounds actually killed him!) and Miyuki and Kyouya traveling the world, fighting bad guys, and saving their childhood friend as young teenagers, it makes sense that they'd be so lax with Nanoha. It practically runs in the family.
Actually, if you know a bit of Triangle Hearts 3 history it makes a lot more sense of why the family lets Nanoha do what she does. What with Shiro having been a former bodyguard (and in that universe his wounds actually killed him!) and Miyuki and Kyouya traveling the world, fighting bad guys, and saving their childhood friend as young teenagers, it makes sense that they'd be so lax with Nanoha. It practically runs in the family.
Just to add to this... Momoko is used to Shiro going away on secret, dangerous missions, not hearing from him, and then he shows back up. Then, of course, he gets badly injured and stops.
In the Triangle hearts OVA, Shiro is dead, and Momoko is used to Kyoya and Miyuki going away on secret, dangerous missions.
Momoko is someone who knows it's best to let her family do what they feel they must, trusting them to come back after it's over. And no forcing them to tell the truth, if they feel they have to keep it secret. That's why when Nanoha told her mother, Momoko let her go, and said she'd handle the others.
Just to add to this... Momoko is used to Shiro going away on secret, dangerous missions, not hearing from him, and then he shows back up. Then, of course, he gets badly injured and stops.
Only NOT. He stopped only in first season of Nanoha. So he nearly died - and still run on missions.
About "children" in law enforcement - wasn't there Elio words about that he would be considered adult in Belka times? And TSAB roots are still undeniable in Ancient Belka even if times and society are greatly changed.
Shiro's out of that business. He said so in S1 ep5 himself.
00-Raiser
2010-03-05, 14:39
About "children" in law enforcement - wasn't there Elio words about that he would be considered adult in Belka times? And TSAB roots are still undeniable in Ancient Belka even if times and society are greatly changed.
But that idea falls apart when you remember that Fate was considered too young to adopt Erio so Lindy had to do it for her.
Why they let kids serve is simple: because they can. Children have been proven to be fully capable of harnessing their magical abilities for use in combat. If they pass the required tests, there's no reason to believe they'd be incapable handling the task.
Shiro's out of that business. He said so in S1 ep5 himself.
Didn't he say something like "it's time for me to go out of that business"?
Meaning he was still in the business till then?
Didn't he say something like "it's time for me to go out of that business"?
Meaning he was still in the business till then?
It's possibly a bit unclear. He's standing there with Momoko, and this is the conversation:
Shiro: "Quite a bit of time has passed, huh?"
Momoko: "Yes."
Shiro: "Well... you and the kids don't need to worry about me anymore. From now on, I'll only be the Midoriya's owner."
Momoko: *relieved* "Yes... thank you, dear...
I suppose it could be taken both ways: #1 that he stopped after getting injured, and he was just reinforcing the point to her that he was done, as a romantic moment. Or #2, maybe he did run some lighter missions after his major accident, but is stopping now. I've always assumed #1, because I felt after barely surviving, he wouldn't want to worry his family anymore, and thus stuck with the business.
But that's just subtitles, someone with good understanding of Japanese may be able to pick out inflections that the subs don't show.
Just to add to this... Momoko is used to Shiro going away on secret, dangerous missions, not hearing from him, and then he shows back up. Then, of course, he gets badly injured and stops.
Yeah, some others made me realize, in the Q&A forum, that there are credible suggestions connecting Triangle Heart and MSLN that I hadn't given much thought to before (other than there being simple cross-over characters).
If you take that into consideration, then it helps to explain Nanoha's independent nature. But, even the Takamachi family history is built around the idea of the Ninja family, with an oh-so-understanding mother who accepts that her teenage children need to do their own thing for the world to be a better place, because nobody else in the world can do it like they do. So even there, the convention of powerful/talented/gifted/exceptional youngsters applies.
It's possibly a bit unclear. He's standing there with Momoko, and this is the conversation:
Shiro: "Quite a bit of time has passed, huh?"
Momoko: "Yes."
Shiro: "Well... you and the kids don't need to worry about me anymore. From now on, I'll only be the Midoriya's owner."
Momoko: *relieved* "Yes... thank you, dear...
I suppose it could be taken both ways: #1 that he stopped after getting injured, and he was just reinforcing the point to her that he was done, as a romantic moment. Or #2, maybe he did run some lighter missions after his major accident, but is stopping now. I've always assumed #1, because I felt after barely surviving, he wouldn't want to worry his family anymore, and thus stuck with the business.
But that's just subtitles, someone with good understanding of Japanese may be able to pick out inflections that the subs don't show.
If "from now on" is truly there, then 1) is impossible.
But that idea falls apart when you remember that Fate was considered too young to adopt Erio so Lindy had to do it for her.
It means nothing. Different responsibilities and all that. In many countries you can enlist (and die for your country) in 18 but can't drink until 21 and all that... or in some cases like Japan you can have sex at 13, but can't marry until 16 -_-;; Laws are stupid like that...
prescience
2010-03-06, 00:15
Laws can be stupid like that, yes, but it's not just the laws that are the issue here. Reading the ID cards for StrikerS, one gets the impression that it's normal to join the TSAB armed forces at around 11-13, even not taking into account the Aces. I doubt it's considered normal for Japanese teenagers to have sex at age 13/14...
Back in ye olden times, it was pretty normal for children to leave home at around that age to apprentice with a master of a particular craft. And given the lack of anything like universal safety regs back then, some of those jobs could be dangerous. But parents did it all the time, because it was the best way for their children to have a shot at a better life.
Given that the TSAB and the Church have a lock on magical education and training as far as we can tell, and how incredibly important magic is to their civilization, I could see the pattern being that a few years of service and danger being worth coming out the other end as a respected and trained mage with a demand for his or her skills.
DezoPenguin
2010-03-06, 00:42
Probably has more to do with the nature of their powers than anything else. While obviously uberprodigies like Nanoha or Caro are the exception, the ability to use magical powers obviously develops early, and there's no way that a bunch of kids are going to use it responsibly on their own (indeed, that's the whole point behind Caro's tribe exiling her; she's simply too dangerous a threat to life and property for her society to accept her, because unlike Midchildan society, they don't have the necessary infrastructure to properly train her and keep the collateral damage under control. Harsh, yes, but also reasonable when realizing that you're dealing with a 10-year-old capable of calling up Godzilla). So mage culture turned to giving budding mages adult responsibilities and roles hand-in-hand with giving them the level of discipline necessary to control those powers (and, if you're more cynical, indoctrinating them with society's values and the military mindset at an early age). Since Midchilda's entire technological base is developed on magic (and apparently so were its precursor cultures such as the Belkan Empire), that in turn caused the age of "adulthood" to creep downwards. You can even see the effect in civilian life, what with Yuuno, for example, being a professional archaeologist at 9.
Edit: Partially ninja'd by Tabasco! :)
Lord Pertinax
2010-03-06, 01:44
It means nothing. Different responsibilities and all that. In many countries you can enlist (and die for your country) in 18 but can't drink until 21 and all that... or in some cases like Japan you can have sex at 13, but can't marry until 16 -_-;; Laws are stupid like that...
Laws are not stupid, they are just a social product made by the man to be able to live in society. as a cultural product, they are imperfect and so they will have some rules that seem out of place, but there's a reason why they're there. You have to see the year of publication and also the last reform they've met to be able to judge it properly.
itanshi1
2010-03-06, 01:51
stupid? no, awkward? maybe
00-Raiser
2010-03-06, 01:55
You know, I think Tsuzuki just hasn't thought that deeply into his own universe and is making things up as he goes along.
Reading the ID cards for StrikerS, one gets the impression that it's normal to join the TSAB armed forces at around 11-13, even not taking into account the Aces.
You forgot academy, which Elio and Caro skipped. Subaru registered at 12 but seen action only at 15. Teana 13 and 16. Same with others. It's normal to register at 11-13, get 3 years of education and only THEN be in field. All known exceptions besides Nanoha are home-schooled and besides Nanoha and Fate from TSAB families.
If the St. Hilde's Academy structure is standard, there's a good reason. The academy has a five-grade elementary school followed by a three-grade intermediate one. So Bureau recruits go from elementary to the Bureau academy instead of intermediate.
It looks like Mid never developed the concept of age-of-maturity that Earth did, so they're fine with kids having occupations. The flipside is, they would also probably hold kids responsible for any damage, injuries or death that result from their actions unlike Earth.
Idle curiosity, but wouldn't the last couple of pages be more appropriate in the Military, Authority & Decisions thread? Or the General thread? Because this hardly involves the manga at all.
RadiantBeam
2010-03-06, 11:07
You know, I think Tsuzuki just hasn't thought that deeply into his own universe and is making things up as he goes along.
The sad thing is, this is probably true. :heh: And then fans like us go and drive ourselves crazy by trying to figure out exactly how his universe works for him. He's making us do all the hard work!
TheShinySword
2010-03-06, 11:15
The sad thing is, this is probably true. :heh: And then fans like us go and drive ourselves crazy by trying to figure out exactly how his universe works for him. He's making us do all the hard work!
No way! Someone as brilliant as him and his magnificant world surely wrote all of this ahead of time.
That was sarcasm.
Probably is an understatement he is most definitely making this up as he goes along, looking for cohesion will just hurt brains.
Comartemis
2010-03-06, 11:15
Laws can be stupid like that, yes, but it's not just the laws that are the issue here. Reading the ID cards for StrikerS, one gets the impression that it's normal to join the TSAB armed forces at around 11-13, even not taking into account the Aces. I doubt it's considered normal for Japanese teenagers to have sex at age 13/14...
You'd be surprised. In some places in the US, it's perfectly legal for 14 year-olds to have sex so long as their partner isn't more than a year or two older than them. Ever heard of Romeo and Juliet laws?
No way! Someone as brilliant as him and his magnificant world surely wrote all of this ahead of time.
That was sarcasm.
Probably is an understatement he is most definitely making this up as he goes along, looking for cohesion will just hurt brains.
Agreed. Look at the mess he's made of Ancient Belkan history, just for starters.
prescience
2010-03-06, 11:59
You'd be surprised. In some places in the US, it's perfectly legal for 14 year-olds to have sex so long as their partner isn't more than a year or two older than them. Ever heard of Romeo and Juliet laws?
Legal, yes. But socially acceptable? I think not. Anyway...
Idle curiosity, but wouldn't the last couple of pages be more appropriate in the Military, Authority & Decisions thread? Or the General thread? Because this hardly involves the manga at all.
You know, I think Tsuzuki just hasn't thought that deeply into his own universe and is making things up as he goes along.
The sad thing is, this is probably true. :heh: And then fans like us go and drive ourselves crazy by trying to figure out exactly how his universe works for him. He's making us do all the hard work!
No way! Someone as brilliant as him and his magnificant world surely wrote all of this ahead of time.
That was sarcasm.
Probably is an understatement he is most definitely making this up as he goes along, looking for cohesion will just hurt brains.
On that note, perhaps it's best that we lay this matter to rest.
Back on-topic, is there any news of translations for ViVid 10 yet? More Belkan lore is always good, and Einhart's reaction to seeing Nanoha and Fate's magical abilities is priceless...
sorry, but I do not understand why there suddenly a discussion of teenage sex?
I missed something?
NorthernFallout
2010-03-06, 15:44
tl;dr: Tsuzuki ain't the best writer in the world. By a long shot.
Anyways, I need me some more Force. Only 20+ days to go~~
I missed something?
Nothing important.
Back on-topic, is there any news of translations for ViVid 10 yet? More Belkan lore is always good, and Einhart's reaction to seeing Nanoha and Fate's magical abilities is priceless...
So far I've heard nothing about a translation for the latest Vivid. Might take some time with this one, Winterbraid is probably busy with other things.
Dragging up Force for a bit, now that we know for sure Subaru knows the kid, and has let the others know about the kid, the chances of an accidental smackdown between Signum and Thoma have become a bit of a low point.
No way! Someone as brilliant as him and his magnificant world surely wrote all of this ahead of time.
That was sarcasm.
Probably is an understatement he is most definitely making this up as he goes along, looking for cohesion will just hurt brains.
XD
Well, i don't think he is quite that bad, though he probably don't have hundreds of thousands of pages about it ^^;
RadiantBeam
2010-03-06, 20:26
XD
Well, i don't think he is quite that bad, though he probably don't have hundreds of thousands of pages about it ^^;
I think most of the time he just creates stuff and doesn't really stop to think about the implications of it. :heh: Like the whole debate with child soldiers.
isagrimorie
2010-03-06, 20:29
I think most of the time he just creates stuff and doesn't really stop to think about the implications of it. :heh: Like the whole debate with child soldiers.
I tend to find most series (TV and anime) tend to not really think about these things which results in Unfortunate Implications or really weird worldbuildings and characterizations. It's a rare showrunner who does really think about things like that.
I think most of the time he just creates stuff and doesn't really stop to think about the implications of it. :heh: Like the whole debate with child soldiers.
Well, given the whole slew of sounfstages and so on, anf the novel which supposedly does talk about it a bit, i'd say he did think about it.
Now, that doesn't mean he has done *good* research, but i am pretty sure he has at least a vague idea of the answer to those things- though most likely, he doesn't want to divulge, as it would 'set it in stone' (less adaptability later on).
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