Nanoha Manga Discussion [Archive] - Page 46

Aaron008R

2010-07-28, 18:00

Read the latest ViviD chapter...
Essential elements of the so-called "next generation magical girls" include:
- Heavy face punches (defeating the "no attack on the face" rule)
- Clothing damage (defeating the "unbreakable magic costume" rule)
- Collateral damage (defeating the "ordinary world never affected" rule)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6124/1517.jpg
AAAA~N　　　　YA~ RA~ RE~ TAAA~

Hahahaha! XD Nanoha's recent cute moments put everyone else in Vivid to shame on the MOE meter so far!:D:D:D

She's grown wonderfully from the adorably sore loser loli to the doubly adorable sore loser onee-chan. And hell am I not complaining! :love::love::love:

Well at least the writers have resisted the temptation to make Nanoha the unbeatable devil. Indeed Tiana did surprisingly well, considering her being an "ordinary person" and gained all her skills by personal effort and dedication.

Now THAT'S a reminder on why Teana is the favorite Striker of many people. including me. :D

I'm surprised that they actually allowed her to take out Nanoha in a mock battle, limiters or not. I like the direction this is going. >:3

I'd love to see the day when Tiana raise to the Devil rank. The "Ordinary" Devil perhaps? :heh:

Eh, no need to reference Nanoha's 'Devil' status. Teana's her own badass gal now. >:3

hah i approve! and nanoha at what 23? still moe :P

Wrong. Nanoha's at 23 and she's more MOE than ever! :D
BWAHAHAHAA! Fear the charms of an adult!!! >:3

MeisterBabylon

2010-07-28, 18:08

ONORE OYAJIIIIIII!! :frustrated:

slayers4

2010-07-28, 18:16

looking for Japanese raw of force 8.....

00-Raiser

2010-07-28, 18:56

Nanoha: *gets Starlight breakered* Ow, that hurts... My God, is this what I've been doing to people? I deserve to be here...

I think that line was from Family Guy... :uhoh:

So the pupil has surpassed the master! Teana beat Nanoha with her own signature attack! All hail!

Though I bet the explanation is "Nanoha lost because she had been previous damaged by Einhart and Teana's attacks. Had she been at full LP she would have survived."

itanshi1

2010-07-28, 19:06

well, yeah, its using HP. in a one on one battle with as much lust for battle as the post strikers chapter, i wonder who'd win. Pretty much, all this established is that teana's attacks can damage nanoha :D

hmm wonder if she can go multiplicity on nanoha and nail her before her lil pink projectiles can find her? i know kaijo messed with that once :D but i'd love to see it in cannon

of course its always a draw even if you can say signum won because nanoha is dizzy :P

Megaolix

2010-07-28, 19:11

Nanoha's not the only one out, you know?

http://i31.tinypic.com/p5e6s.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/j9a2h1.jpg
I think I'm going to have a nosebleed here...

itanshi1

2010-07-28, 19:13

yeah, they love hiding nipples behind scraps of clothing even if the placement of the nipples becomes mind boggling <.<;

Megaolix

2010-07-28, 19:54

yeah, they love hiding nipples behind scraps of clothing even if the placement of the nipples becomes mind boggling <.<;

Well... One gets used to it over time. :heh:

00-Raiser

2010-07-28, 20:12

It's more mind boggling that they had no problems showing nipples in the bath chapter, but now they're hiding them.

itanshi1

2010-07-28, 20:14

they hid them in the first bath chapter too

00-Raiser

2010-07-28, 20:41

Apparently you must be between the ages of 15 (Isis has them, Caro and Lutecia don't) and 20 (Teana had them, Nanoha and Fate don't) to have nipples =/

ZeroIchiNi

2010-07-28, 21:05

Apparently you must be between the ages of 15 (Isis has them, Caro and Lutecia don't) and 20 (Teana had them, Nanoha and Fate don't) to have nipples =/

Curse you A's -> Strikers Timeskip. Oh wait Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate was 19 at Strikers...:eyespin::eyespin::eyespin:

Tiresias

2010-07-28, 21:21

Closer up/better view/flipped thing of Nanoha's device (http://piclair.com/data/8tqgz.jpg)

If anything, Erio's looks like a smaller, more stable version of the Strike Cannon. But~ Erio doesn't seem to have the same arm attachment as Nanoha. Unless that white part is really just his sleeve, but it looks too straight and there's some sort of design behind it.
The dark part on Erio's near his arm at the rear is longer than Nanoha's.
Following that part, there's three cylindrical parts grouped together under that. The third on Nanoha's sort of stops into the back part of the device. (http://piclair.com/data/uaiwl.jpg) Erio's seems to be longer.
The handlebar for the other hand on Erio's seems to be different. It's not only shorter than the Nanoha model for some reason, which could just be an artist error, but it looks different from the handlebar down'd original in both Higa-san and Kurogin's illustrations (http://piclair.com/data/pszk3.jpg).
Subaru's ahoge is in the way, so can't tell what that thing is, but it doesn't look like it's on Nanoha's model. Unless it's something else entirely. orz
And staring at Kurogin's made me realize that Nanoha's nails are painted pink, aww. And reminded me of User Cross Link vs Direct Boost. =w=

Amazing eyesight :twitch:. Wonder if the writer will comment about this...

Read the latest ViviD chapter...
Essential elements of the so-called "next generation magical girls" include:
- Heavy face punches (defeating the "no attack on the face" rule)
- Clothing damage (defeating the "unbreakable magic costume" rule)
- Collateral damage (defeating the "ordinary world never affected" rule)

Aside from the face punches, the other elements are actually kinda old, especially the clothing damage :naughty:. I think even Sailor Moon and CCS has its moments of collateral damage, or at least, the "engulf an area in a pink beam of love" variant. Ok, maybe not as destructive :heh:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6124/1517.jpg
AAAA~N　　　　YA~ RA~ RE~ TAAA~
Ma'am, aren't you...uhm... a bit too old to pose like th-...nevermind...<moe nosebleed>

MSLN women are fine wine indeed :love:

Well at least the writers have resisted the temptation to make Nanoha the unbeatable devil. Indeed Tiana did surprisingly well, considering her being an "ordinary person" and gained all her skills by personal effort and dedication.

Technically, so was Nanoha. It's just that Nanoha was conscripted recruited from the age of nine while Tea waited until she's older. And don't forget Raging Raising Hearts spartan training regiment VR learning mode :heh:

Additionally, Nanoha can fly. As of Vivid, the closest thing Tea has for "flight" is instant magical rune platform :uhoh:

I'd love to see the day when Tiana raise to the Devil rank. The "Ordinary" Devil perhaps? :heh:

Teana (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=7767): "Don't call me normal!"

dragoncrusher

2010-07-28, 21:27

hmm...
Nanoha wep = GUN LANCE
Erio wep = Rocket Lance....

MAYBE....

Doraneko

2010-07-28, 23:23

Technically, so was Nanoha. It's just that Nanoha was conscripted recruited from the age of nine while Tea waited until she's older. And don't forget Raging Raising Hearts spartan training regiment VR learning mode :heh:

Additionally, Nanoha can fly. As of Vivid, the closest thing Tea has for "flight" is instant magical rune platform :uhoh:

Teana (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=7767): "Don't call me normal!"

Well they were doing a mock battle and supposedly Nanoha was under strong limiters to ensure a fair fight. If she couldn't even inflict some damage on Nanoha under such advantageous condition, I wouldn't help but to question whether her improvement had been stalled.

On the other hand, Nanoha has certainly improved in specific areas...

S1: Now with greatest power! Starlight... Breaker!!
A's: So I'll be... a demon. Maybe I am a little demonic. But you're going to listen whether you like it or not!
StS: Why don't you cool your head a bit?
VV: AAAA~N　YOU GOT MEEE!!! °°・(((p(≧□≦)q)))・°°

Anyway some fun statistics, courtesy of Lingzhuxin in the Show Nanoha forums.

Nanoha may be focusing more on her moe metre now, but that doesn't mean she is not a devil. Surprising to see Corona's high scores though, despite of her relatively minor presence.

Teams：
Nanoha 、 Subaru 、 Vivio 、 Lutecia 、 Rio 、 Erio
Fate 、 Teana 、 Einhart 、 Caro 、 Corona 、 Nove

（Chapter 12）
Vivio --》 Einhart -300
Vivio --》 Einhart -100
Einhart --》 Vivio -300
Einhart --》 Vivio -100

（Chapter 13）
Subaru --》 Nove -100
Nove --》 Subaru -100
Einhart --》 Vivio -800
Einhart --》 Vivio -1100
Vivio --》 Einhart -300
Corona --》 Rio -1100
Erio --》 Fate -300
Fate --》 Erio -200

（Chapter 14）
Subaru --》 Nove -800（total new damages）
Nove --》 Subaru -750（same as above）
Einhart --》 Nanoha -500
Nanoha --》 Einhart -2260
Teana --》 Nanoha -900
Teana --》 Subaru -200
Teana --》 Erio -300
Vivio --》 Nove -200

（Chapter 15）
Nanoha & Erio --》 Fate -800 （total new damages）
Fate --》 Erio -500（total new damages）
Erio --》 Fate -1360
Nove --》 Subaru -200 （total）
Subaru & Vivio --》 Nove -600
Vivio --》 Nove -1060
Lutecia & Rio --》 Caro -500（total）
Lutecia & Rio --》 Corona -200（total）
Corona --》 Lutecia -2200（KO）
Corona --》 Rio -1700（KO）
Nanoha --》 Caro -1700（KO）
Erio --》 Fate -340（KO）
Fate --》 Erio -？？
Teana --》 Erio -1800（combined with the above，KO）
Nanoha --》 Corona -2270（ceased fighting）
Teana --》 Nanoha -1100（KO）
Nanoha --》 Teana -2390
Nove & Teana --》 Vivio -800
Nanoha --》 Nove -？？
Vivio --》 Nove -240（combined with the above，KO）
Nove & Teana ？--》 Subaru -1890（ceased fighting）
Einhart --》 Vivio -700
？？--》 Einhart -？？（Est impossible due to the lack info on HP recovered)
Vivio --》 Teana -110（KO）
Vivio --》 Einhart -600
Vivio --》 Einhart -750（KO）
Einhart --》 Vivio -1100（unconscious resistance after KO，KO）

Calculations：

Total damage inflicted
（unweighted i.e. no consideration of the difference in difficulty in causing damages to different parties) ：
Nanoha ：2260+1700+2270+2390+（800？）+（240？）=8620+（1040？）=96 60
Fate ：200+500+？？=700+？？（Incalculable. Est to be far lower than 1800）=700+1800=2500
Subaru ：100+800+（600？）=900+（600？）=1500
Nove ：100+750+200+？？+（800？）=1050+（800？）+？？（Incalculable . Est to be far lower than 1890）=1850+1890=3740
Teana ：900+200+300+1100+（800？）+（1800？）+（1890？）=2500+（449 0？）=6990
Vivio ：300+100+300+200++（600？）+1060+（240？）+110+600+750=3 420+（840？）=4260
Einhart ：300+100+800+1100+500+700+1100=4600
Erio ：300+（800？）+1360+340=2000+（800？）=2800
Lutecia ：（500？）+（200？）=（700？）
Caro ：0
Rio ：（500？）+（200？）=（700？）
Corona ：1100+2200+1700=5000

Total HP recovered for self and other parties：
Lutecia ：1900
Caro ：1290+

Rank on direct damage inflicted：
1 Nanoha 8620
2 Corona 5000
3 Einhart 4600
4 Vivio 3420
5 Teana 2500
6 Erio 2000
7 Nove 1050
8 Subaru 900
9 Fate 700
10 Lutecia & Rio 0
12 Caro 0

Rank on total damage inflicted：
(include damages from simultaneous attacks on multiple parties)
1 Nanoha 9660
2 Teana 6990
3 Corona 5000
4 Einhart 4600
5 Vivio 4260
6 Erio 2800
7 Nove 1850
8 Subaru 1500
9 Fate 700
10 Lutecia & Rio 700
12 Caro 0

Adjusted rank on total damage inflicted：
（include est of damages inflicted by Fate and Nove）
1 Nanoha 9660
2 Teana 6990
3 Corona 5000
4 Einhart 4600
5 Vivio 4260
6 Nove 3740
7 Erio 2800
8 Fate 2500
9 Subaru 1500
10 Lutecia & Rio 700
12 Caro 0

KO rank:
Vivio -- KO：Nove（after SLB hit）、Teana、Einhart
Teana -- KO：Erio、Nanoha /// Neutralized：Subaru
Nanoha -- KO：Caro /// Neutralized：Corona、Einhart
Corona -- KO：Lutecia、Rio
Erio -- KO：Fate
Einhart -- KO：Vivio

aers

2010-07-28, 23:36

Teams：
Nanoha 、 Subaru 、 Vivio 、 Lutecia 、 Rio 、 Erio
Fate 、 Teana 、 Einhart 、 Caro 、 Corona 、 Nove

（Chapter 12）
Vivio --》 Einhart -300
Vivio --》 Einhart -100
Einhart --》 Vivio -300
Einhart --》 Vivio -100

（Chapter 13）
Subaru --》 Nove -100
Nove --》 Subaru -100
Einhart --》 Vivio -800
Einhart --》 Vivio -1100
Vivio --》 Einhart -300
Corona --》 Rio -1100
Erio --》 Fate -300
Fate --》 Erio -200

（Chapter 14）
Subaru --》 Nove -800（total new damages）
Nove --》 Subaru -750（same as above）
Einhart --》 Nanoha -500
Nanoha --》 Einhart -2260
Teana --》 Nanoha -900
Teana --》 Subaru -200
Teana --》 Erio -300
Vivio --》 Nove -200

（Chapter 15）
Nanoha & Erio --》 Fate -800 （total new damages）
Fate --》 Erio -500（total new damages）
Erio --》 Fate -1360
Nove --》 Subaru -200 （total）
Subaru & Vivio --》 Nove -600
Vivio --》 Nove -1060
Lutecia & Rio --》 Caro -500（total）
Lutecia & Rio --》 Corona -200（total）
Corona --》 Lutecia -2200（KO）
Corona --》 Rio -1700（KO）
Nanoha --》 Caro -1700（KO）
Erio --》 Fate -340（KO）
Fate --》 Erio -？？
Teana --》 Erio -1800（combined with the above，KO）
Nanoha --》 Corona -2270（ceased fighting）
Teana --》 Nanoha -1100（KO）
Nanoha --》 Teana -2390
Nove & Teana --》 Vivio -800
Nanoha --》 Nove -？？
Vivio --》 Nove -240（combined with the above，KO）
Nove & Teana ？--》 Subaru -1890（ceased fighting）
Einhart --》 Vivio -700
？？--》 Einhart -？？（Est impossible due to the lack info on HP recovered)
Vivio --》 Teana -110（KO）
Vivio --》 Einhart -600
Vivio --》 Einhart -750（KO）
Einhart --》 Vivio -1100（unconscious resistance after KO，KO）

Calculations：

Total damage inflicted
（unweighted i.e. no consideration of the difference in difficulty in causing damages to different parties) ：
Nanoha ：2260+1700+2270+2390+（800？）+（240？）=8620+（1040？）=96 60
Fate ：200+500+？？=700+？？（Incalculable. Est to be far lower than 1800）=700+1800=2500
Subaru ：100+800+（600？）=900+（600？）=1500
Nove ：100+750+200+？？+（800？）=1050+（800？）+？？（Incalculable . Est to be far lower than 1890）=1850+1890=3740
Teana ：900+200+300+1100+（800？）+（1800？）+（1890？）=2500+（449 0？）=6990
Vivio ：300+100+300+200++（600？）+1060+（240？）+110+600+750=3 420+（840？）=4260
Einhart ：300+100+800+1100+500+700+1100=4600
Erio ：300+（800？）+1360+340=2000+（800？）=2800
Lutecia ：（500？）+（200？）=（700？）
Caro ：0
Rio ：（500？）+（200？）=（700？）
Corona ：1100+2200+1700=5000

Total HP recovered for self and other parties：
Lutecia ：1900
Caro ：1290+

Rank on direct damage inflicted：
1 Nanoha 8620
2 Corona 5000
3 Einhart 4600
4 Vivio 3420
5 Teana 2500
6 Erio 2000
7 Nove 1050
8 Subaru 900
9 Fate 700
10 Lutecia & Rio 0
12 Caro 0

Rank on total damage inflicted：
(include damages from simultaneous attacks on multiple parties)
1 Nanoha 9660
2 Teana 6990
3 Corona 5000
4 Einhart 4600
5 Vivio 4260
6 Erio 2800
7 Nove 1850
8 Subaru 1500
9 Fate 700
10 Lutecia & Rio 700
12 Caro 0

Adjusted rank on total damage inflicted：
（include est of damages inflicted by Fate and Nove）
1 Nanoha 9660
2 Teana 6990
3 Corona 5000
4 Einhart 4600
5 Vivio 4260
6 Nove 3740
7 Erio 2800
8 Fate 2500
9 Subaru 1500
10 Lutecia & Rio 700
12 Caro 0

KO rank:
Vivio -- KO：Nove（after SLB hit）、Teana、Einhart
Teana -- KO：Erio、Nanoha /// Neutralized：Subaru
Nanoha -- KO：Caro /// Neutralized：Corona、Einhart
Corona -- KO：Lutecia、Rio
Erio -- KO：Fate
Einhart -- KO：Vivio

Did Fate not get hit by the SLB after all then? I thought the text box under her name had "SLB" in it.

prescience

2010-07-28, 23:40

Well they were doing a mock battle and supposedly Nanoha was under strong limiters to ensure a fair fight. If she couldn't even inflict some damage on Nanoha under such advantageous condition, I wouldn't help but to question whether her improvement had been stalled.
Well, the translation I'm looking at says "The adults will have their maximum power output limited." Since Teana is 20 here (I think), that would apply to her as well.

itanshi1

2010-07-28, 23:40

splash damage? maybe

00-Raiser

2010-07-28, 23:44

Well they were doing a mock battle and supposedly Nanoha was under strong limiters to ensure a fair fight.

A fair fight for the kids, meaning it's highly likely Teana was under a limiter too.

EDIT: ninja'd

Demi.

2010-07-28, 23:58

Did Fate not get hit by the SLB after all then? I thought the text box under her name had "SLB" in it.

Yes, Fate was KO'd by SLB.

Doraneko

2010-07-28, 23:58

Well they didn't go into the details on limiters, so I suppose it is possible that Nanoha & Fate got the strongest limiter of all even if all adults had their own share. :p

itanshi1

2010-07-28, 23:59

Not sure what the point of limiters are save for safety. I mean it escapes me a bit. If they are keeping track of damage in some artificial way, then the damage they are doing should ordinarily be within safe parameters. Given the collateral and armor damage, someone or someones were not being safe :P

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 00:01

not sure what the point of limiters are save for safety. i mean it escapes me a bit. if they are keeping track of damage in some artificial way, then the damage they are doing should ordinarily be within safe parameters. the damage after wards shows someone or someones was not being safe :P

It is just a plot device, letting the veterans to be defeated here, and still be able to run around like unstoppable monsters in other scenes. No need to think too hard about it. :p

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 00:03

ah so teana cheated then, she was 'surpassing' her limiter :P

nanoha can say the same thing so its fair haha. Take touch foot ball, they tackled each other, so no penalty. although apparently they took their teams out doing it -_-

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 00:08

ah so teana cheated then, she was 'surpassing' her limiter :P

Or maybe her limiter is weak enough. :p

We only know adults have limiters, but no information on the extent of limit on each adult.

arkhangelsk

2010-07-29, 00:10

It is so that our Aces can actually feel like they are having fun and have practice solving tactical problems with skill and efficiency rather than brute force.

Or maybe her limiter is weak enough. :p

We only know adults have limiters, but no information on the extent of limit on each adult.

Probably it is an equalizing limiter, set to match the level of the kids.

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 00:25

Did Fate not get hit by the SLB after all then? I thought the text box under her name had "SLB" in it.

She had been KO'ed by Erio right before the SLB hit her. :heh:

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 00:33

well, erio did strip her :P though that was established

aers

2010-07-29, 00:33

I guess that explains the clothing damage, she got hit even after being taken out.

arkhangelsk

2010-07-29, 00:35

To guarantee unrestrained movement during situations of "magic cancellation", a dedicated system of magic conversion different from the one in the CW models is incorporated. The system allows the storage of the user's stamina in the device body, as well as the conversion of such for device activity.

P.S. to raizoo: I hold no exclusivity in translation. What we are doing is illegal either way :p. But anyway thanks for the Dimension scans! :)

Oh, god. Yes, I know you translated "tairyoku", but stamina or body [i]strength as a magic substitute?

Attack!

Wait, why am I feeling so faint? Oh, crap, the glucose in my blood and muscles have been exhausted in that one attack. Now I can barely think, let alone move... Cypha is coming but even my retinal cells are giving out from lack of sugar so I can't see her... :heh:

One reason why I actually prefer Vivid to Force is that at least the former knows its limits and shows me something cute.

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 00:38

wtf, storage of stamina/strength? that changes quite a bit

omg, i must write this... gaaah (heh, seems i took the other way around on use)

"So... wait, what? I can store what in Loki?" Fury was confused, but that wasn't anything new.

Shari sighed, "Your stamina. Basically, you will be exhausted up until the moment you fight. It is an alternate to mana when mana cannot be used." She had explained this a couple times already. She really had other things to tend to.

Fury looked at her device and back at Shari, "My stamina? Could I put anything else in there?"

Shari blinked. She checked her calculations and flipped through a dozen pages on her view screen, "I believe I could do something unique. I'll make you the first to try it out!"

"Alright!"

--

"I feel like crap." Fury frowned.

"That's an interesting side effect."

"You didn't tell me there was a side whatever!"

Shari laughed, "I did say you will feel exhausted up until the moment of fighting."

"That's weird. So I should go fight someone?"

"Yeah, but I recommend Drones, I don't want you killing anyone or worse by mistake." Part of her was grinning like a madwoman, but she did not want a repeat of the Peeps Incident.

"Alight!" Fury ran out of the room.

Time passed by and something made Shari doubt everything, "I wonder if using her libido to power her device was a wise decision."

*next scene censored*

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 01:00

Oh, god. Yes, I know you translated "tairyoku", but stamina or body [i]strength as a magic substitute?

Maybe if the device user fights long enough, all her energy will be sucked up by the device and she will pass out. The device will continue to move on its own accord and may even indirectly control the user's body.

Zombie Fate is cool, sexy and fatal. :cool:

Demi.

2010-07-29, 01:02

She had been KO'ed by Erio right before the SLB hit her.

Doesn't it show Fate sitll having hitpoints before SLB hit her? Unless there is another page where Erio hits her a second time, because from the page I saw, Fate still had a few hundred hitpoints after Erio sliced at her.

Is the whole chapter already downloadable?

http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/pre_vivid_ch15_02.jpg

Or am I reading that wrong?

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 03:10

Doesn't it show Fate sitll having hitpoints before SLB hit her? Unless there is another page where Erio hits her a second time, because from the page I saw, Fate still had a few hundred hitpoints after Erio sliced at her.

(snip)

Or am I reading that wrong?

It was not yet the end of the fight. Check the last image in one of aers' earlier posts.

Fate is really too kind to her kids... :sad:

(snip)
In other news the new Force NEXT is Fate by the looks of it.. and one more Vivid pic.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5576/vlippan126981.jpg (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/vlippan126981.jpg/)http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7982/up60683.jpg (http://img230.imageshack.us/i/up60683.jpg/)

P.S. Sent you a message. :)

Nya~n

2010-07-29, 03:14

I just realised that one can see a delicious peek at erio's thighs in his damage report for the match, what with his torn trousers.

Akiyoshi

2010-07-29, 03:38

Maybe Teana's SLB had an advantage in charge speed over Nanoha's because of the double barrel of cross mirage xD. I think SLB don't depend on the level of the caster but more likely on her capability to gather mana, maybe Nanoha is capable of holding much more mana than Teana but if she's capable of gathering mana than Nanoha that will bring her a very good advantage over her in a SLB to SLB match, because if Teana's one is capable of gather mana quickly that wiull affect Nanoha's own SLB at the end xD.

If Tea know that, being the tactician she is, all indicates that she's councicious about said advantage and force the "Starlight Breaker" match on purpouse. What a smart girl xD!

Nightengale

2010-07-29, 05:56

To begin with, the entire match and the system in place for calculating damage and HP is flawed. It's designed more like a game rather than an actual simulation of 'damage : physical endurance : HP', balanced for the role of each person.

Even taking into consideration that limiters were in place, decent amount of HP losses were still calculated for situations where the damage should be 0 or even a mere 50, at most. It's like the simulation takes into account that while the damage was minimal, the situation of how the person was hit ( Nanoha took a shot without reacting, Erio/Subaru took terrain damage due to carelessness and not avoiding Teana's barrage ) and reduced HP as the 'game' saw fit, like a backstab critical damage, even if it wasn't damaging at all.

00-Raiser

2010-07-29, 06:57

aers

2010-07-29, 07:10

fffffffoooorrrrrceeeee

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8021/up456339.th.jpg (http://img831.imageshack.us/i/up456339.jpg/)http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5941/up456340.th.jpg (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/up456340.jpg/)http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5695/up456341.th.jpg (http://img838.imageshack.us/i/up456341.jpg/)

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg43/scaled.php?tn=0&server=43&filename=moe147148fatetestarossa.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640 (http://a.yfrog.com/img43/6316/moe147148fatetestarossa.jpg)

I wonder if the scythe thing was made up..

*grumbles irrationally about Fate getting two drawings to Nanoha's one*

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 08:40

aers

2010-07-29, 08:40

So is it built into Bardiche?

Takamura Mamoru

2010-07-29, 08:44

Motherf'ck! I predicted a "dual light-saber" weapon!

arkhangelsk

2010-07-29, 08:54

Even taking into consideration that limiters were in place, decent amount of HP losses were still calculated for situations where the damage should be 0 or even a mere 50, at most. It's like the simulation takes into account that while the damage was minimal, the situation of how the person was hit ( Nanoha took a shot without reacting, Erio/Subaru took terrain damage due to carelessness and not avoiding Teana's barrage ) and reduced HP as the 'game' saw fit, like a backstab critical damage, even if it wasn't damaging at all.

To be fair, the original MGLN did show that if you took a magical attack without any preparation, it can be a quick game ender - note how quickly Chrono's (while Chrono has a higher mage rank, he's not actually a more powerful mage) snapshot attack on a Fate that was not maintaining situational awareness and thinking only of grabbing the Jewel Seeds was basically led to a one-shot KO. So perhaps the game was more or less accurately simulating this respect.

Nightengale

2010-07-29, 08:55

A little bit saddened, to be honest. Swords are all Fate seem to be using lately, even Scythe form is almost never seen anymore. I had hoped for Fate to go back to her polearm origins, but alas. Still looks very bloody sleek though, as to be expected by Kurogin. It's child's play for him to draw sexy machines.

*grumbles irrationally about Fate getting two drawings to Nanoha's one*

Nanoha will get another one, so relax. Fortress Mode. ( WITH WINGS )

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 08:57

The funny thing about the latest NEXT scan is that there is no mention of the CW-AEC01X Harpe Scythe.

Is it another 2ch trolling, or is it some classified information in the Nanohaverse?

I am still wondering whether to include it in the updated translation...

aers

2010-07-29, 09:00

Nanoha will get another one, so relax. Fortress Mode. ( WITH WINGS )

Oh, I know. That's why I said irrationally. :) Nanoha with wings will absolutely kill me.

Now that <random 2ch poster> has posted a few Force pages I suppose I can stop hovering over my 2ch rss feeds like I've been doing for the past 2 days..

..although I wish he'd scanned some of the pages with action. heh.

Aaron008R

2010-07-29, 09:01

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg43/scaled.php?tn=0&server=43&filename=moe147148fatetestarossa.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640 (http://a.yfrog.com/img43/6316/moe147148fatetestarossa.jpg)

I wonder if the scythe thing was made up..

*grumbles irrationally about Fate getting two drawings to Nanoha's one*

*whistles*

Color me impressed with Fate's upgrades for Bardiche.:) Well-designed multi-form sword weapons are always nice. :D *cougheventhoughbardicheisanaxcough*

And thank goodness for Fate herself finally looking lithe and fierce in this artwork. Her proportions in the Nyantype cover a few pages ago (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3161093&postcount=11170)were just wrong.:heh: She looked like some muscular Amazon minus the muscles. >_> (And she looks like a droopy-eyed bare-shoulder fanservice blondie in Vivid...:heh:)

Nightengale

2010-07-29, 09:02

To be fair, the original MGLN did show that if you took a magical attack without any preparation, it can be a quick game ender - note how quickly Chrono's (while Chrono has a higher mage rank, he's not actually a more powerful mage) snapshot attack on a Fate that was not maintaining situational awareness and thinking only of grabbing the Jewel Seeds was basically led to a one-shot KO. So perhaps the game was more or less accurately simulating this respect.

In this case though, we can see Auto-Defense from Raising Heart reacting quick enough to give Nanoha protection from Teana's shot. Besides, the other scenario I mentioned didn't even have the victims suffering from any magic damage whatsoever, but from stuff like terrain debris flying around after magic hit the buildings. ( which we know barely injures any mage with a ready passive defense )

arkhangelsk

2010-07-29, 09:25

In this case though, we can see Auto-Defense from Raising Heart reacting quick enough to give Nanoha protection from Teana's shot.

Well, that's fortunate for her - the shield managed to partially extend. Do remember what happened to Teana's last opponents when they were rear-shotted too - two were rendered combat ineffective and only one should struggle to her feet. When combined with the fact Nanoha is limited, the original series evidence and all, the evidence suggests that if not for the auto-guard, Nanoha's HP would have hit zero in that instant, and she would not be feeling that much better. So the shield partially extended, but not well enough to block some major damage.

Besides, the other scenario I mentioned didn't even have the victims suffering from any magic damage whatsoever, but from stuff like terrain debris flying around after magic hit the buildings. ( which we know barely injures any mage with a ready passive defense )

Personally, without going into it again deep and deeper, the physical consequences of barrier jackets as they are portrayed (read: relatively soft and fluffy), plus what I've seen of the limitations of barrier jackets puts me on the side that concludes that they are actually pretty darn weak vs kinetic impacts, and if a mage survives it, it is mostly due to last-ditch active measures and they can get quite badly wiped otherwise. It is an unpopular position, but this game seems to agree with me...

Nanya01

2010-07-29, 09:50

*looks at Force scans* HA! :D

Erio's taller than all the other characters except for maybe Signum and Zafira by Force.

aers

2010-07-29, 10:14

http://h.imagehost.org/t/0584/moe_147153_fate_testarossa_mahou_senki_lyrical_nan oha_force_mahou_shoujo_lyrical_nanoha_thighhi.jpg (http://h.imagehost.org/view/0584/moe_147153_fate_testarossa_mahou_senki_lyrical_nan oha_force_mahou_shoujo_lyrical_nanoha_thighhi)

thanks as always to the person who scanned this.

Tiresias

2010-07-29, 10:28

http://yotsuba.imouto.org/data/preview/72/7c/727c793702e1a783b25f1195c5e36183.jpg (http://moe.imouto.org/post/show/147148)
I wonder if the scythe thing was made up..

Either that or the writer really needs a dictionary...

Motherf'ck! I predicted a "dual light-saber" weapon!
A little bit saddened, to be honest. Swords are all Fate seem to be using lately, even Scythe form is almost never seen anymore. I had hoped for Fate to go back to her polearm origins, but alas.

I'm torn :(. On one side, I'm excited to see Fate channeling Darth Maul, but I've also been hoping for her to wield a polearm again; a bardiche, halberd, naginata, tabar, whatever. Ah well, she looks nice with it anyway:rolleyes:. Waiting for the translated description...

*grumbles irrationally about Fate getting two drawings to Nanoha's one*

Nanoha will get another one, so relax. Fortress Mode. ( WITH WINGS )

Oh, I know. That's why I said irrationally. :) Nanoha with wings will absolutely kill me.

Wings? Nanoha "White Archdemon" Takamachi will make my day :bow:. Anyway, do we have a clue about fortress mode? Don't tell me it's reference to the B-29 Superfortress? Magical Turrets at all side?

Akiyoshi

2010-07-29, 11:09

Fate's Sword look fine but, as everybody, i find bugging that she's not using a scythe anymore(maybe Tsuzuki i trying to go for more "practical" weapons?) and maybe it's only a thing of the art used in the Force NEXT but ....Bardiche is now blue colored o-O?

...*sigh* another month to wait for a battle -_-(Go Cypha xD).

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 11:12

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 11:43

MS Nanoha Force NEXT - Design 05
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/934/fateriotzamberbladeresi.jpg (http://a.yfrog.com/img43/6316/moe147148fatetestarossa.jpg)

Bardiche Assault Riot Blade II

This is the evolved model of "Bardiche Assault", Captain Fate T. Harlaown's favourite device.

To allow the dual-bladed "Riot Blade" to be easily linked up as a single component when situation demands, starting from the body material, appearance and the internal unit, there have been a number of changes to the specification and performance. Nonetheless, there has been no alteration to the base, i.e., the main body of Bardiche. Bardiche therefore retains control of the whole device. As decided by Captain Harlaown and Bardiche, the device will be a test model incorporating the operation theories and material technology for the fifth generation device.

To guarantee unrestrained mobility during situations of magic cancellation, a dedicated system of magic conversion different from the one in the CW models is incorporated. The system allows the storage of the user's magical energy in the device body, as well as the conversion of such for device activity.

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/2425/transformationsequence.jpg

Bardiche Assault Riot Zamber II

This is the evolved model of "Riot Zamber" that is originally in the form of a giant sabre. Although detailed specifications have yet to be revealed, according to presently available data it is expected to have the capability of aerial and antisurface control: an overengineered design as a personal combat equipment.

In contrast with the approach of total conversion of magic power into physical energy adopted by the CW line of AEC equipment, the fifth generation devices are designed with the concept of utilization of magical energy to create magic effects even in situations of magic cancellation. They also exhibit a higher degree of magical performance in situations of no magic interference.

Therefore, in situations of magic cancellation, the fifth generation devices can create nonfatal attacks such as shocks and stuns without relying on direct output of magical energy. Under perfect conditions, even stronger effects can be achieved.

Currently these devices are extremely difficult to handle, however. Except with users capable of highly sophisticated magic control, or in possession of "inborn magic conversion potential" such as electricity and fire, the devices show the problems of unstable operational output, high degree of energy loss, as well as insufficiency for prolonged usage.

Nevertheless, under the current background where magic cancellation is becoming a mainstream approach for illegal weapons, it can be said that these devices is a litmus test for examining the viability of magic as a peace-keeping force.

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/3312/riotzamberii.jpg
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3183/bardicheriotii.jpg

CW-AEC01X Harpe Scythe
使用者：フェイト・Ｔ・ハラオウン

試験機体のAEC装備。
ミッドチルダ地上本部と本局遺失物管理部の依頼で、「近距離戦闘向けの攻撃装備」として開発中である。
設計思想としては、陸／空両対応で、他のＡＥＣ装備では破壊できない特殊な状況に対応することを
目的として設計・製造されている。
フェイトのパーソナルカラーである黒色で塗装されているが、塗料により隠密性を向上させている。
実地での試験運用に向けて現在チューニング中。

バルディッシュアサルト　ライオットブレード2

フェイト執務官の愛機の進化機体。
もともと二刀一対だった「ライオットブレード」を連結使用できるように仕様と
性能が変化しているが、バルディッシュの本体は手を加えられることなく残っており
管制を行っている。本機はフェイトとバルディッシュの意志により第五世代デバイス
運用理論および素材技術におかえる実験機として稼働している。
「魔力無効」状況における活動を行えるよう、CW社系とは別のことなる独自の変換
技術を採用し、術者の体力を機体内に蓄積、変換して活動するシステムを保有している

Bananoha

2010-07-29, 11:46

-snip--moar snip-Did you know I love you two? ;__;

But jeebus, Arnage is totally my favourite character of Force. After waifu on the fapping side, though. (/ω＼)

1 → 2 → 5 made me giggle. Dunnyo why, but ~4hrs of sleep and derp work soon.

Keroko

2010-07-29, 12:06

Heh, looks like Fate doesn't want to give up her impractical weapon wielder title to the gunbladers, and stepped up the gear by wielding one of the most impractical weapons out there: A double bladed sword.

A well, Fate will always be Fate.

Akiyoshi

2010-07-29, 12:06

[SIZE="5"]
Nevertheless, under the current background where magic cancellation is becoming a mainstream approach for illegal weapons, it can be said that these devices is a litmus test for examining the viability of magic as a peace-keeping force.
Sad but true, it's a good sign that an original devices finally get a real upgrade to mantein their usefullness on the line of duty, i wonder if Unison Devices will be also capable to undergo "upgrading"(looksa difficult because they are far more complex than regular devices and apparently they are still studied ancient technology who isn't fully comprehended at the time). I like how their mention his capabilities under "normal" circunstances, but, at this point in the series, said normal circunstances can only occur during training or unrestrained exhibition matches xDU.

[SIZE="5"]
Currently these devices are extremely difficult to handle, however. Except with users capable of highly sophisticated magic control, or in possession of "inborn magic conversion potential" such as electricity and fire, the devices show the problems of unstable operational output, high degree of energy loss, as well as insufficiency for prolonged usage.

I ...MUST ...DON'T ....GET ....EXCITED, ....DON'T ....BE ....OP-TIMISTIC ....ARRGHH ....I ....CAN'T ...RESIST ....I'M .....SMILLING ....HOPEFULLY .....AAAAARRRRRGHHHHH!!!! *colapses*

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 12:08

yeah here's to Signum and Rio's upgrades. :D

Tiresias

2010-07-29, 12:12

Dewa :bow: ...excellent job as always! :heh:

This is the evolved model of "Bardiche Assault", Captain Fate T. Harlaown's favourite device.

To allow the dual-bladed "Riot Blade" to be easily linked up as a single component when situation demands, starting from the body material, appearance and the internal unit, there have been a number of changes to the specification and performance. Nonetheless, there has been no alteration to the base, i.e., the main body of Bardiche. Bardiche therefore retains control of the whole device. As decided by Captain Harlaown and Bardiche, the device will be a test model incorporating the operation theories and material technology for the fifth generation device.

To guarantee unrestrained mobility during situations of magic cancellation, a dedicated system of magic conversion different from the one in the CW models is incorporated. The system allows the storage of the user's magical energy in the device body, as well as the conversion of such for device activity.

So Bardiche now has an extra battery inside? :heh: Why haven't anyone think of this sooner?

This is the evolved model of "Riot Zamber" that is originally in the form of a giant sabre. Although detailed specifications have yet to be revealed, according to presently available data it is expected to have the capability of aerial and antisurface control: an overengineered design as a personal combat equipment.

In contrast with the approach of total conversion of magic power into physical energy adopted by the CW line of AEC equipment, the fifth generation devices are designed with the concept of utilization of magical energy to create magic effects even in situations of magic cancellation. They also exhibit a higher degree of magical performance in situations of no magic interference.

Therefore, in situations of magic cancellation, the fifth generation devices can create nonfatal attacks such as shocks and stuns without relying on direct output of magical energy. Under perfect conditions, even stronger effects can be achieved.

Currently these devices are extremely difficult to handle, however. Except with users capable of highly sophisticated magic control, or in possession of "inborn magic conversion potential" such as electricity and fire, the devices show the problems of unstable operational output, high degree of energy loss, as well as insufficiency for prolonged usage.

Nevertheless, under the current background where magic cancellation is becoming a mainstream approach for illegal weapons, it can be said that these devices is a litmus test for examining the viability of magic as a peace-keeping force.

...and unlike the CW models, the new upgrade allows nonfatal attacks even in "situation of magic cancellation"?

CW-AEC01X Harpe Scythe
使用者：フェイト・Ｔ・ハラオウン

試験機体のAEC装備。
ミッドチルダ地上本部と本局遺失物管理部の依頼で、「近距離戦闘向けの攻撃装備」として開発中である。
設計思想としては、陸／空両対応で、他のＡＥＣ装備では破壊できない特殊な状況に対応することを
目的として設計・製造されている。
フェイトのパーソナルカラーである黒色で塗装されているが、塗料により隠密性を向上させている。
実地での試験運用に向けて現在チューニング中。

バルディッシュアサルト　ライオットブレード2

フェイト執務官の愛機の進化機体。
もともと二刀一対だった「ライオットブレード」を連結使用できるように仕様と
性能が変化しているが、バルディッシュの本体は手を加えられることなく残っており
管制を行っている。本機はフェイトとバルディッシュの意志により第五世代デバイス
運用理論および素材技術におかえる実験機として稼働している。
「魔力無効」状況における活動を行えるよう、CW社系とは別のことなる独自の変換
技術を採用し、術者の体力を機体内に蓄積、変換して活動するシステムを保有している

Uhm, so we still don't know what CW-AEC01X looks like? Please, please let it be a polearm

So many text. I'm gonna have to reread these after sleep...

I ...MUST ...DON'T ....GET ....EXCITED, ....DON'T ....BE ....OP-TIMISTIC ....ARRGHH ....I ....CAN'T ...RESIST ....I'M .....SMILLING ....HOPEFULLY .....AAAAARRRRRGHHHHH!!!! *colapses*

Well, I'm too afraid to expect something for Rio (we still won't know whether she would even show up at Force), but I'm also wishing for some Signum awesomeness :D

Anyway, has anyone ever wondered why there's only 2 mana conversion affinity? There's yet to be example of other, traditional types (wind, water, ice, etc)

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 12:25

Did you know I love you two? ;__;
:kisskiss:

Dewa :bow: ...excellent job as always! :heh:
Thanks! :p

Uhm, so we still don't know what CW-AEC01X looks like? Please, please let it be a polearm

I just checked the 2ch logs. Immediately after the CW-AEC01X post, the poster said that is the strongest weapon he has thought of. Nice trolling :heh:. orz

190 ：マロン名無しさん[sage] 投稿日：2010-07-28 07:06:22 ID:???
CW-AEC01X Harpe Scythe
使用者：フェイト・Ｔ・ハラオウン

試験機体のAEC装備。
ミッドチルダ地上本部と本局遺失物管理部の依頼で、「近距離戦闘向けの攻撃装備」として開発中である。
設計思想としては、陸／空両対応で、他のＡＥＣ装備では破壊できない特殊な状況に対応することを
目的として設計・製造されている。
フェイトのパーソナルカラーである黒色で塗装されているが、塗料により隠密性を向上させている。
実地での試験運用に向けて現在チューニング中。

191 ：マロン名無しさん[sage] 投稿日：2010-07-28 07:11:41 ID:???
以上、ぼくのかんがえたさいきょうへいきでした

Tempy

2010-07-29, 12:28

What ever happened to being an axe, Bardiche?

What ever happened?

You're never used in your original form except in carry, or maybe shooting.

It seems BFS is all Fate wants now; your original form is not needed. Isn't it sad? She must be compensating for something.

Koveras Alvane

2010-07-29, 12:32

MSLN women are fine wine indeed :love:

Once a magical girl, always a magical girl, I say. :D

I ...MUST ...DON'T ....GET ....EXCITED, ....DON'T ....BE ....OP-TIMISTIC ....ARRGHH ....I ....CAN'T ...RESIST ....I'M .....SMILLING ....HOPEFULLY .....AAAAARRRRRGHHHHH!!!! *colapses*

I knew it: Signum will get a giant flaming chansaw-sword (to wield alongside the rebuilt and upgraded Laevatein), which transforms into a hand-held minigun loaded with explosive rounds.

It seems BFS is all Fate wants now; your original form is not needed. Isn't it sad? She must be compensating for something.

Well, there was a reason why swords and the like displaced other forms of melee weapons by the end of the pre-industrial age... And I guess people who lauded Force's greater focus on military tactics and actual practical concerns must welcome Sword!Bardiche, too. ^^

Takamura Mamoru

2010-07-29, 12:38

If Teana gets a big fucking sniper rifle, I will be pleased.

prescience

2010-07-29, 12:43

Ghost!Teana, anyone? Her illusion abilities match the profile, too...

EDIT: Of course, SLB doesn't quite fit the "stealth operative" bit. But I guess it's as good a substitute as any for a tac nuke :heh:

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 12:46

Some ideas for Teana

http://i.imgur.com/EKzax.jpg

Assault rifle good too

http://i.imgur.com/48dGU.jpg

http://imgur.com/x1OCE.jpg

Ghost!Teana, anyone? Her illusion abilities match the profile, too...

EDIT: Of course, SLB doesn't quite fit the "stealth operative" bit. But I guess it's as good a substitute as any for a tac nuke :heh:

http://www.platformnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Ghost-Recon-2-1158.138111154.jpg

Sheba

2010-07-29, 12:48

Currently these devices are extremely difficult to handle, however. Except with users capable of highly sophisticated magic control, or in possession of "inborn magic conversion potential" such as electricity and fire, the devices show the problems of unstable operational output, high degree of energy loss, as well as insufficiency for prolonged usage.

Why does that stink of mecha animu tech wank? Like "Oh yeah, we made that prototype! It's impratical, unstable, it may blow up in your face! It may fart like a wet petard in the middle of a battle! But we give it to you anyway because you are a Newtype have the "HERO" tag!"

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 12:53

Fate filed the necessary wavers :P

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 12:54

Why does that stink of mecha animu tech wank? Like "Oh yeah, we made that prototype! It's impratical, unstable, it may blow up in your face! It may fart like a wet petard in the middle of a battle! But we give it to you anyway because you are a Newtype have the "HERO" tag!"

Because they would have nothing to write on the page if everything was perfect. :heh:

CX-XXXXX
This weapon can take all forms, deal with all enemies, cheap as a dime, use no energy and cause no pollution, while still usable by your grandmother and her dog.

Tiresias

2010-07-29, 12:54

Once a magical girl, always a magical girl, I say. :D

What are you talking about? She's not a girl anym- What am I saying? I'm sorry Nanoha, you will always be young in my heart!!

I knew it: Signum will get a giant flaming chansaw-sword (to wield alongside the rebuilt and upgraded Laevatein), which transforms into a hand-held minigun loaded with explosive rounds blessed by the Belkan Saint Church.

Signum: "I have come back to serve, again!" (blows Cypha's ass)

Well, there was a reason why swords and the like displaced other forms of melee weapons by the end of the pre-industrial age... And I guess people who lauded Force's greater focus on military tactics and actual practical concerns must welcome Sword!Bardiche, too. ^^

Well technically, big frickin' swords doesn't have much place in the industrial age either :uhoh:. And until WWI, polearms never really disappeared, they and arquebuses got married and gave birth to the bayonet and musket.

Besides, it's probably just me, but polearms seems easier to wield than Riot Blade II (don't know about Riot Zamber II, though)

If Teana gets a big f_cking sniper rifle, I will be pleased.

What? Let Vice handle the heavy sniping (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Sniper_Zastava_M93.jpg/800px-Sniper_Zastava_M93.jpg), Teana can use a shotgun (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Benelli_m4_2.jpg) or battle rifle (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/FN_Scar_Light.jpg/800px-FN_Scar_Light.jpg) instead :rolleyes:

Iromaru

2010-07-29, 13:05

It's the presentation of them and how over the top they are. People saying it's "just A's again" really are IMO being rather dishonest. Yes the heroes did get beat up in A's, but it was an instance of a clear power and skill disparity. They lost becasue the enemy was just better and had a higher power level, IIRC it's hinted that they basically held back in later fights as well and could have rather easily killed them if they wanted too. The heroes lost, but they put up a fight and it seemed like with some luck they might have even been able to win at first.

Thus it wasn't "ZOMG OUR WEAPONS ARE TOTALLY USELESS!!!" it was "Our weapons aren't as effective anymore we'll need some slight modifications to improve them."

In Force though it was just straight up bullshit hax. It's clear there was no skill difference inf act Signum pretty much stomps Cypha. She only wins by pulling out what is to many, including me, an eye roll inducing superpower which somehow totally negates magic and breaks physical weapons. It's even stupider becasue Signum uses the old Belkan style which might well date from around the same time Eclipse does, but is apparently totally without any form of countermeasure to it. The fight in A came across as two guys getting in a boxing ring and one of them winning becasue he had a stiffer punch and more experience. The fight in Force was like two guys getting in a ring and the guy with the longer reach and more skill losing cause the other guy had brass knuckles hidden in his gloves. One you can watch and be down your favorite lost, but acknowledge it was a good fight. The other one just makes you annoyed and angry that the winner had to resort to bullshit tricks to win.

Basically the regeneration stuff would be bad enough without then adding "oh and all magic is useless" and then on top of THAT "oh and she can break metal objects with her elbow... somehow". It just comes across as really bad writing where rather then produce an interesting fight based on skill or tactics they just give one side a bunch of bullshit super powers that mean the other fighter has no chance whatsoever. This would be bad enough if it was an excuse for some training from hell set up where they get stronger in some outlandishly short period or something. The fact it seems to have been done almost solely as a set up for some new uber weapons to replace weapons fans know and like though is even worse. Think about it BESIDE justifying the addition of the latest batch of yawn inducing uber weapons that will surely totally negate it what purpose does the entire "AMF on roids" thing serve?

NONE.

Seriously there is no reason that they couldn't just be powerful normal mages with the regeneration if you want to make them seem really dangerous. My issue is that it's setting a precedent that's both annoying and bad writing we already did the "zomg it depower magic!" thing already, are you going to come up with some bullshit variation of that for EVERY new story? Here's a rather better idea, Nanoha and company are strong... but they've peaked. They aren't getting any higher ranked or absurdly stronger each passing day, they're just maintaining there current power levels. With age they may even start to ebb and grow weaker. Suddenly any concerns about having to power up villains are gone if the protagonists stay roughly the same then the threat levels can remain roughly the same.

There's no need for bullshit power ups and random new weapons, but there is a need for a good writer who can create an interesting series of scenarios and threats of around the same level. Too me the "And then suddenly an insanely more powerful threat appears!" approach to a squeal is one of the laziest and most often eye roll inducing plots one can use. If the world acutally worked like that the second gulf war should have involved Iraq deploying mecha legions that decimated the US armored divisions forcing them to send in there own highly experimental elite mecha strike team to save the day. Instead having been ground down previously Iraq was acutally weaker and got it's shit ruined as it's military imploded without many major battles.

That's relative though there were still intense small scale battles and plenty of drama to be found, if you knew where to look. The same can be done in fiction the idea that a new villain MUST be objectively stronger then an old one is silly in the extreme.

I was saying the same thing the first time Divider's anti-magic abilities were revealed months ago. It's a terrible idea and a sign of bad writing.

At this point I would prefer Force never happened. A team of super-villains with "I win" button and a personal super powerful battleship flying around doing everything they wanted is just retarded and straight out of stupid superhero comics.

Demi.

2010-07-29, 13:09

MS Nanoha Force NEXT - Design 05
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/934/fateriotzamberbladeresi.jpg (http://a.yfrog.com/img43/6316/moe147148fatetestarossa.jpg)

Cool.:hyper-^v^:

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 13:09

I was saying the same thing the first time Divider's anti-magic abilities were revealed months ago. It's a terrible idea and a sign of bad writing.

At this point I would prefer Force never happened. A team of super-villains with "I win" button and a personal super powerful battleship flying around doing everything they wanted is just retarded and straight out of stupid superhero comics.

Hehe, not really. It's an arms race. The reason all these lost relics are so powerful and so varied, back in the Belkan era, the arms race played itself out until total destruction. The New TSAB is struggling to contain the remnants of that war with their subtle additions to the arms race in order to prevent a repeat of total destruction. You can say its Deus EX or bad writing, but its consistent since the start of the series.

Sheba

2010-07-29, 13:13

CX-XXXXX
This weapon can take all forms, deal with all enemies, cheap as a dime, use no energy and cause no pollution, while still usable by your grandmother and her dog.

I was not even asking for that. I would have liked something like "This was thoroughly tested" instead of the prototype wank that plagues the mecha genre. But instead we get another brand of cliche, the absence of which was something that fans of the franchises used to take pride in.

You can say its Deus EX or bad writing, but its consistent since the start of the series.

You likely meant Deus ex machina, because Deus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex_%28video_game%29) EX (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhqYBKZRg5I)'s writing totally dwarf the Nanoha series in term of depth, execution and scope.

Koveras Alvane

2010-07-29, 13:21

EDIT: Of course, SLB doesn't quite fit the "stealth operative" bit. But I guess it's as good a substitute as any for a tac nuke :heh:

Well, every covert agent has a point in life, when they need a quick exit... ;)

Some ideas for Teana

http://i.imgur.com/EKzax.jpg

Nah, that would be something for Signum (or the cyborgs). I am afraid Teana is not strong enough to handle equipment like that.

Assault rifle good too

http://i.imgur.com/48dGU.jpg

Yeah, that's more like it but...

http://imgur.com/x1OCE.jpg

...this is the winner.

"Teana Lanster, sniping the enemy!" :uhoh: *runs, but head blown off*

What are you talking about? She's not a girl anym- What am I saying? I'm sorry Nanoha, you will always be young in my heart!!

Nanoha: *smiles, eyebrow twitching* Your head. Shall I cool it?..

I knew it: Signum will get a giant flaming chansaw-sword (to wield alongside the rebuilt and upgraded Laevatein), which transforms into a hand-held minigun loaded with explosive rounds blessed by the Belkan Saint Church.

Signum: "I have come back to serve, again!" (blows Cypha's ass)

Ah sorry, silly me forgot about the blessings from the Church. Must be the fact that there is nearly no church presence in Force so far... Actually, I am quite interested in what kind of badass army is the Church Knights regiment. *thinks of the Inquisition in Trinity Blood*

...

Oh, crap, now I am getting nosebleeds at the thought of Nun!Signum. -,,-

Well technically, big frickin' swords doesn't have much place in the industrial age either :uhoh:. And until WWI, polearms never really disappeared, they and arquebuses got married and gave birth to the bayonet and musket.::)

Well, the Japanese officers carried swords (katana/saber mashups IIRC) during WW2 AFAIK. There were largely ceremonial, of course, but still functional blades... Not that I argue against the idea that firearms are more useful, but that would not be Force but BetrayerS, no? ^^;

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 13:45

I was not even asking for that. I would have liked something like "This was thoroughly tested" instead of the prototype wank that plagues the mecha genre. But instead we get another brand of cliche, the absence of which was something that fans of the franchises used to take pride in.

From the very first day when Nanoha appears in this world as an eroge imouto character and then transforms herself into a CCS-ripoff in her first magical girl adventure, the whole franchise has never been extremely original I have to say :heh:. Try those French and Polish non-commercial animation shorts instead if you place a very high value on originality.

Force NEXT is a column for introducing concept weapon designs. You see prototypes there the same way you see Firefox v4 Beta reviews in a column on new browsers. I fail to see any problem with that.

On top of that, your accusation is simply too much of a generalization, as not all NEXT designs are for the so-called "heroes". Check Vita's 04. It is designed for use by ordinary adult males and females and will probably be produced in a mass scale if test results are positive.

Tiresias

2010-07-29, 13:48

Well, every covert agent has a point in life, when they need a quick exit... ;)

If there's anything Nanoha has taught her, it's that there are times when you can't just bother with doors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse-holing) :D

"Teana Lanster, sniping the enemy!" :uhoh: *runs, but head blown off*

What bugs me about the concept of Sniper Tea is that her previous abilities (magic bullets + magic bayonet) allows her to face both melee and ranged opponents. Sniping restricts her for long range, which has always been Vice's forte.

A matter of personal taste, I guess, but I still like this one better :heh:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/FN_Scar_Light.jpg/120px-FN_Scar_Light.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/FN_Scar_Light.jpg)

Nanoha: *smiles, eyebrow twitching* Your head. Shall I cool it?..

<closes eyes> "Mother, forgive m-"

Ah sorry, silly me forgot about the blessings from the Church. Must be the fact that there is nearly no church presence in Force so far... Actually, I am quite interested in what kind of badass army is the Church Knights regiment. *thinks of the Inquisition in Trinity Blood*

They're one of Huckebein victim, remember? :heh:

I never saw Trinity Blood; the one that pops out of my mind is actually Judas Iscariot from Hellsing :p as well as the obligatory W40K church militants, of course

Well, the Japanese officers carried swords (katana/saber mashups IIRC) during WW2 AFAIK. These were largely ceremonial, of course, but still functional blades... Not that I argue against the idea that firearms are more useful, but that would not be Force but BetrayerS, no? ^^;

BetrayerS? Nahh... Wait, we were talking about weapon shape instead of mechanism...weren't we? :uhoh: I'm getting senile... Wait, we were talking about big friggin swords instead of katana-sized ones!

prescience

2010-07-29, 14:07

I was not even asking for that. I would have liked something like "This was thoroughly tested" instead of the prototype wank that plagues the mecha genre. But instead we get another brand of cliche, the absence of which was something that fans of the franchises used to take pride in.

From the very first day when Nanoha appears in this world as an eroge imouto character and then transforms herself into a CCS-ripoff in her first magical girl adventure, the whole franchise has never been extremely original I have to say :heh:. Try those French and Polish non-commercial animation shorts instead if you place a very high value on originality.
In particular, the "untested and unreliable weapons tech" bit isn't new to Force. The idea of fitting the Cartridge System to an Intelligent Device was like this in A's. Originality and technological realism are nice, yes, but expecting them from this franchise is incredibly optimistic. Moderate your expectations, and you won't be disappointed nearly as much.

Sheba

2010-07-29, 14:16

From the very first day when Nanoha appears in this world as an eroge imouto character and then transforms herself into a CCS-ripoff in her first magical girl adventure, the whole franchise has never been extremely original I have to say :heh:. Try those French and Polish non-commercial animation shorts instead if you place a very high value on originality.

What? You think I am some kind of snob who would watch nothing but mindfuck movies or movies by Eric Rohmer? I am not that.

What I would have liked is something like Hayate coming with somekind of plan to wreck the hell out of Huckies that would make fans go "Oh man, what a bitch! But my kind of bitch!". Instead, we get ooooh shiny gadgets that are foretelling Gundam Seed Destiny style of Kira hijack.

Then again, Tsuzuki have too much of a hard on for mecha animu to even think of something like a plan.

Koveras Alvane

2010-07-29, 14:26

If there's anything Nanoha has taught her, it's that there are times when you can't just bother with doors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse-holing) :D

Yup, was there any other point in her teaching her Starlight Breaker? :)

What bugs me about the concept of Sniper Tea is that her previous abilities (magic bullets + magic bayonet) allows her to face both melee and ranged opponents. Sniping restricts her for long range, which has always been Vice's forte.

Well, yeah. But I have the feeling that she is deadly enough at close and medium range (just ask Nove, Wendi, and Deed), and being an Enforcer basically means you have to be able to kick ass at any range. Of course, the real reason is that I find Barrett M82 most badass. :D

<closes eyes> "Mother, forgive m-"

Renegade!Nanoha: Too slow.

They're one of Huckebein victim, remember? :heh:

Yeah, that's pretty much it for them, however. ^^;

I never saw Trinity Blood; the one that pops out of my mind is actually Judas Iscariot from Hellsing :p as well as the obligatory W40K church militants, of course

Well, Trinity Blood Inquisition is basically the same thing, only they are bishier. :D

BetrayerS? Nahh... Wait, we were talking about weapon shape instead of mechanism...weren't we? :uhoh: I'm getting senile... Wait, we were talking about big friggin swords instead of katana-sized ones!

The alternative in Force are big frigging guns, if you remember. ;)

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 14:27

Hayate kills everyone! I can back that idea!

Tiresias

2010-07-29, 14:52

Yup, was there any other point in her teaching her Starlight Breaker? :)

Aside from minimizing her inferiority issue? <noticing magical laser sight> Uhm, w-what inferiority issue? :uhoh:

Well, yeah. But I have the feeling that she is deadly enough at close and medium range (just ask Nove, Wendi, and Deed), and being an Enforcer basically means you have to be able to kick ass at any range. Of course, the real reason is that I find Barrett M82 most badass. :D

Well we all have our moments of selfishness, don't we? :heh:

Of course, considering weapons in Nanoha can change shape, it could also be one that alternates between sniper form and assault form. Oh man, I hope the next one will show us Teana's new toy! Of course, there's a chance she would use a Strike Cannon variant like Erio...

Well, Trinity Blood Inquisition is basically the same thing, only they are bishier. :D

Bishier than Space Marines/Sisters of Battle or bishier than Judas Escariot?

The alternative in Force are big frigging guns, if you remember. ;)

Point taken. But back to the original discussion, why can't it be a big friggin axe? :upset: <sad>

[...], but that would not be Force but BetrayerS, no? ^^;
Hayate kills everyone! I can back that idea!

Uh oh, i think we just gave people ideas...

Kaijo

2010-07-29, 15:05

I was not even asking for that. I would have liked something like "This was thoroughly tested" instead of the prototype wank that plagues the mecha genre. But instead we get another brand of cliche, the absence of which was something that fans of the franchises used to take pride in.

Because sometimes you have to press prototypes into service to react to a threat. Sure, you can hold your prototypes back and allow a few years for testing... while the Huckbein continue to slaughter people. That should go over real well...

What I would have liked is something like Hayate coming with somekind of plan to wreck the hell out of Huckies that would make fans go "Oh man, what a bitch! But my kind of bitch!". Instead, we get ooooh shiny gadgets that are foretelling Gundam Seed Destiny style of Kira hijack.

At this point, we don't know the full extent of the plan, so I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt before jumping to a conclusion. And sometimes, you don't have much of a time to plan.

"Hey look, terrorists are cruising the countryside and killing people! Help us!"

"Naw, we're waiting to think of a good plan and properly test our weapons. I mean, we could just go in in order to prevent as many casualties as possible, but there are so many people living already, we can afford some losses."

Goldsmith

2010-07-29, 15:27

So what was the "announcement"?

aers

2010-07-29, 15:33

They didnt say next Nyantype for the announcement, just 'this summer', iirc.

Sheba

2010-07-29, 15:44

"Hey look, terrorists are cruising the countryside and killing people! Help us!"

"Naw, we're waiting to think of a good plan and properly test our weapons. I mean, we could just go in in order to prevent as many casualties as possible, but there are so many people living already, we can afford some losses."

What's so hard to accept that some people refuse to be distracted by "Oh shiny!" and want Hayate's informed tactical mind to stop to be in the realm of informed ability (look it up in tvtropes since you guys love it so much)? If tk calls Eclipse the lazy way to make an enemy powerful, I should have the right to call Strike wathever toy the lazy way to deal with Eclipse.

Koveras Alvane

2010-07-29, 15:50

Aside from minimizing her inferiority issue? <noticing magical laser sight> Uhm, w-what inferiority issue? :uhoh:

Don't worry, Teana does not beam spam. ^^ She just shoots you in the head. :uhoh:

Of course, considering weapons in Nanoha can change shape, it could also be one that alternates between sniper form and assault form. Oh man, I hope the next one will show us Teana's new toy! Of course, there's a chance she would use a Strike Cannon variant like Erio...

Hm, having a Device that takes form of different firearms, kinda like Graf Eisen and Laevatein is an interesting idea but I'm afraid that would get too technological for Nanoha magitek...

Bishier than Space Marines/Sisters of Battle or bishier than Judas Escariot?

Yes.

...basically, both. ^^;

Point taken. But back to the original discussion, why can't it be a big friggin axe? :upset: <sad>

I have to admit that I don't find any reason for that. Except maybe that swords are traditionally more popular in Japan than axes... Though maybe they could have gotten Fate a naginata.

Uh oh, i think we just gave people ideas...

Don't worry, they'll live. :heh:

Keroko

2010-07-29, 15:58

Well, there was a reason why swords and the like displaced other forms of melee weapons by the end of the pre-industrial age... And I guess people who lauded Force's greater focus on military tactics and actual practical concerns must welcome Sword!Bardiche, too. ^^

And yet the sword they give her is the double-bladed variant. That's like one step forward, two steps backwards.

But hey, this is the person who could wield a farming tool and make it a deadly weapon. Fate is Fate is Fate. Give her a weapon that makes you go "wait, how can anyone possibly wield that?" and she'll do it.

Ghost!Teana, anyone? Her illusion abilities match the profile, too...

*ping* Now there's an image that's lodged itself into my brain and won't let go.

http://www.platformnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Ghost-Recon-2-1158.138111154.jpg

Nah, these ghosts. (http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg149/Dark_Storm_001/Starcraft_Ghost.jpg)

Stealth, psionics, and big guns.

What I would have liked is something like Hayate coming with somekind of plan to wreck the hell out of Huckies that would make fans go "Oh man, what a bitch! But my kind of bitch!". Instead, we get ooooh shiny gadgets that are foretelling Gundam Seed Destiny style of Kira hijack.

Then again, Tsuzuki have too much of a hard on for mecha animu to even think of something like a plan.

Frankly, while some of us would love to see Hayate pull a Code Geass, we're only fooling ourselves here. That's not how the Nanoha franchise does things. Big guns and beams-o-pink, that's what Nanoha is.

Shame, in my opinion, but I never really expected the franchise to do any different than it always has.

Rising Dragon

2010-07-29, 16:07

But hey, this is the person who could wield a farming tool and make it a deadly weapon. Fate is Fate is Fate. Give her a weapon that makes you go "wait, how can anyone possibly wield that?" and she'll do it.

Anything can be used as a weapon, so long as you put your mind to it.

*ping* Now there's an image that's lodged itself into my brain and won't let go.

Nah, these ghosts. (http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg149/Dark_Storm_001/Starcraft_Ghost.jpg)

Stealth, psionics, and big guns.

Hell I'd accept this idea solely to see Teana in such an outfit. =X

aldw

2010-07-29, 16:31

Anything can be used as a weapon, so long as you put your mind to it.

Perseus using a sickle to decapitate Medusa is a good example of this.

Nanya01

2010-07-29, 16:36

Perseus using a sickle to decapitate Medusa is a good example of this.

Yo yos, pencils, coins, pipes for smoking tobacco, duck potty...

I've seen a lot of weird weapons pop up in anime and manga. XD

Sheba

2010-07-29, 16:38

The coolest are still playing cards imo. Gambit and Tubalcan ftw.

FRS

2010-07-29, 16:43

A giant double sword for Fate ? that a bit unwieldy for someone that prefer fast combat style.

Demi.

2010-07-29, 16:51

Fate's been sporting a giant sword ever since A's.

Keroko

2010-07-29, 16:52

Anything can be used as a weapon, so long as you put your mind to it.

Let me rephrase then, efficient weapon. :p It's one of the laws of anime for anything in the hands of heroes to become efficient weapons. Improbable Weapon User, I believe the trope was called.

MeisterBabylon

2010-07-29, 17:58

Go get your tacticool fix at Magpul guys, I'mma rock with this new design of Bardiche. :p

Now if only Fate had telekinetic powers, or could use her binds to crush. Because she can use force lightning, twin sabers Bardiche makes for a great fight:

KgvzSDcCH4g

00-Raiser

2010-07-29, 18:07

When I saw Fate's new blades I immediately thought of the 00 Gundam's GN Sword/rifle IIs that also combine like that (can't find a pic though. I actually hate those swords/guns).

Anyone have a hard translated version of Vita's Force Next?

Nya~n

2010-07-29, 18:14

The coolest are still playing cards imo. Gambit and Tubalcan ftw.

Trying very hard not to see Carim as the Dandy Ma-... dammit, it's stuck in my head now.

DezoPenguin

2010-07-29, 18:42

I swear, they're trying to cover all of the Phantasy Star Online hand-to-hand weapons with Fate's arsenal. They've already got Saber (Riot Blade), Sword (Zanber or Riot Zanber combined), Twin Sword (Riot Zanber, separated), Twin Saber (this new double-ended version), Scythe (Scythe/Haken form, natch), and Axe (Device/Assault Form). All that's left are Dagger, Partisan, Knuckle, and Claw...and Tea and Subaru already got two of those.

Kaijo

2010-07-29, 20:03

What's so hard to accept that some people refuse to be distracted by "Oh shiny!" and want Hayate's informed tactical mind to stop to be in the realm of informed ability (look it up in tvtropes since you guys love it so much)? If tk calls Eclipse the lazy way to make an enemy powerful, I should have the right to call Strike wathever toy the lazy way to deal with Eclipse.

Who said Hayate has a tactical mind? And even if so, who says it has to be something that works all the time? Perhaps the best strategy is to push Nanoha, Vita, Subaru, Erio, and Caro at them?

And I don't think making the Eclipse so powerful against magic is lazy; in fact, it makes a lot of sense. We already know anti-magic exists, and so it's a logical deduction that someone is going to push it up to 11 to be a viable threat against the Bureau. When your opponent consists of a bunch of mages, frankly you'd be stupid not to incorporate anti-magic into your arsenal.

itanshi1

2010-07-29, 20:05

You know, its completely feasible for magic to be used stealthily and deadly. You could make micro barriers to cause coronaries. :/

Assassin!Teana :D

PhoenixFlare

2010-07-29, 20:21

Who said Hayate has a tactical mind? And even if so, who says it has to be something that works all the time? Perhaps the best strategy is to push Nanoha, Vita, Subaru, Erio, and Caro at them?

And I don't think making the Eclipse so powerful against magic is lazy; in fact, it makes a lot of sense. We already know anti-magic exists, and so it's a logical deduction that someone is going to push it up to 11 to be a viable threat against the Bureau. When your opponent consists of a bunch of mages, frankly you'd be stupid not to incorporate anti-magic into your arsenal.

Which invariably points to the next question: Since anti-magic has been pushed for the past two seasons now, will it ever end at this stage? Nanoha and her friends' power ceilings are nigh unreachable right now, and if the sequels continue pushing for magic versus anti-magic, then the Magical Girl title in front of Nanoha should be replaced with something else. <.<

Although, I do give credits to Force for introducing something new: a cruiser made of biometal (i.e. the Huckebein's ship). At least, if Tsuzuki is being consistent and not retcon it later to say that somehow the ship just "came to be".

Megaolix

2010-07-29, 21:00

That is a problem, right? I mean, who could match Nanoha, Fate and the Wolken in terms of skill now? Or rather, how can someone appear liek that and how will the author make us believe it? I suppose that apart from introducing a new generation, this is rather difficult to solve.

Rising Dragon

2010-07-29, 22:06

@Phoenix: They already DID replace the Magical Girl portion of the title in Force.

LoweGear

2010-07-29, 22:12

then the Magical Girl title in front of Nanoha should be replaced with something else

It already is. Force is called "Mahou Senki Lyrical Force", aka Magic War Chronicle.

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 22:14

Anyone have a hard translated version of Vita's Force Next?
Otto and raizoo has posted an excellent translation of the text (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3133839#post3133839). No one has touched the draft sketches though. But then it is a headache to do the editing and release another full translation. I will leave it for now unless enough people here show interest in it (sadly not many apparently).

Magical Girl title in front of Nanoha should be replaced with something else. <.<

FYI the current title of Force is....

× Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Force
○ Magical Chronicles Lyrical Nanoha Force

Nightengale

2010-07-29, 22:15

They can start by introducing the (relative) equals to Nanoha, Fate and Company within the same TSAB structure, first.

Where are the other highly skilled Admirals? Captains? Belka SAR's (non-cannon fodder) knights? Other canonically acknowledged SS rank mages? Older Aces who earned their place by years of experience, complete with wrinkles?

Bananoha

2010-07-29, 22:18

derp, where's the guy who did the first three Force NEXT?

PS - It's literally War Chronicle, but it's officially Magical Record Lyrical Nanoha Force. (http://piclair.com/data/0203n.jpg)

PPS - This is for you, Doraneko! (http://changi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/csaloon/1279963708/451-453)

Doraneko

2010-07-29, 22:40

derp, where's the guy who did the first three Force NEXT?
Complicated question. At least I know that Otto accounts for one-third of that guy (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3070053#post3070053).

PPS - This is for you, Doraneko! (http://changi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/csaloon/1279963708/451-453)

乙！

LOL at certain parts of the interview:
緋賀　ファンの方々の応援がなによりも励みです。シグナムがピンチのときには
　　　　「殺さないで！」というメールが何通も届いていました（笑）。
都築　本当ですか（笑）？

Higa: It is encouraging to hear voices of support from the fans. Especially when Signum was in great trouble, I have received many emails saying "Don't kill her!" (Laughed)

Tsuzuki: Oh really? (Laughed)

緋賀　(...) はやてが出てきたときも反響がすごかったです
　　　　ね。髪型変わったのと、すごく昇進してたっていうのが。
都築　それにはやては、トーマやフッケバインからしたらラスボス的存在なんです
　　　　よね（笑）。

Higa: There were also strong feedbacks when Hayate showed up. Probably it is because of her hairstyle change, as well as her rapid promotion.

Tsuzuki: Moreover, from the perspective of Touma and the Hückebeins, she is the last boss to them. (Laughed)

Goldsmith

2010-07-29, 22:48

Touma is already on the huckebein's side now?

Nanya01

2010-07-29, 22:50

Touma is already on the huckebein's side now?

Not quite. they made the offer tho.

Akiyoshi

2010-07-29, 23:11

Higa: It is encouraging to hear voices of support from the fans. Especially when Signum was in great trouble, I have received many emails saying "Don't kill her!" (Laughed)

Tsuzuki: Oh really? (Laughed)

Looks like Tsuzuki himself is surprised to find that Signum actually have a fanbase xDU ...well at least he finally notices xDU.

Also looks like he's somehow cheering for the Huckebein, i think he's having fun with all of this, that sick bastard xDU.

Ottocycle

2010-07-29, 23:47

Complicated question. At least I know that Otto accounts for one-third of that guy (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3070053#post3070053).

I can't photoshop like you two do, so yeah, not me at all. :heh:

If my memory doesn't fail me I think it's Takamura Mamoru (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=97817) who did it though.

Scarletknive

2010-07-30, 00:21

Tsuzuki: Moreover, from the perspective of Touma and the Hückebeins, she is the last boss to them. (Laughed)

Last boss? Does that mean she is too hard to defeat??? *Thinks of a HP more than Dark Brain* T.T

Btw Fate's 1st weapon look like some robot in Gunbuster?(Anyone knows?)

2nd one:No explaination is needed

Akiyoshi

2010-07-30, 01:11

How curious is the fact that Bardich'e new "double blade" mode higly resembles Laevatein's pre-Bogenform when fuses with his scabbard and becomes a double-bladed Laevatein for a moment.

That remind me, if Laevatein receives Bardiche's treatement, the perfect compliment to it(from Signum's unseen CW weapon) it's a new scabbard with upgraded defense/ofense systems(if you think a sacabbard is irrelevant just ask Saber and her mighty scabbard "Avalon").

FRS

2010-07-30, 01:16

Fate's been sporting a giant sword ever since A's.

Sure but not one with two "head".

Tiresias

2010-07-30, 01:23

Does Vivid also had this kind of interview?

LOL at certain parts of the interview:
Higa: It is encouraging to hear voices of support from the fans. Especially when Signum was in great trouble, I have received many emails saying "Don't kill her!" (Laughed)

Considering what once happened to Hideaki Anno, one must wonder just how many of those emails contains death threats :uhoh:

Higa: There were also strong feedbacks when Hayate showed up. Probably it is because of her hairstyle change, as well as her rapid promotion.

I thought Hayate remains a Lieutenant Colonel between StrikerS and Force? :confused: Love the hairstyle, though :heh:

Tsuzuki: Moreover, from the perspective of Touma and the Hückebeins, she is the last boss to them. (Laughed)

The last boss here probably means "as long as she's not defeated, more will come" rather than "her hitpoints is over 9000" :eyespin:

Nya~n

2010-07-30, 01:41

Touma is already on the huckebein's side now?

well, more like they share a common enemy. not that he knows that his pseudo-family is after his ass now anyways, albeit reluctantly. all he knows is the bureau is after him, not who in the bureau.

Nina.Wolken

2010-07-30, 02:00

This month's Movie 1st Manga - Reason - introduce new material about Nanoha's past and well, her reasons for fighting (also explains why she has been so emotive in this installement) :

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/6605/img0528g.th.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/img0528g.jpg/)http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6661/img0529y.th.jpg (http://img266.imageshack.us/i/img0529y.jpg/)http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9052/img0530vw.th.jpg (http://img295.imageshack.us/i/img0530vw.jpg/)http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8925/img0531n.th.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/img0531n.jpg/)http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2030/img0532iy.th.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/img0532iy.jpg/)http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6515/img0533m.th.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/img0533m.jpg/)http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3799/img0534.th.jpg (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/img0534.jpg/)http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4240/img0535e.th.jpg (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/img0535e.jpg/)http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3328/img0536wi.th.jpg (http://img715.imageshack.us/i/img0536wi.jpg/)http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6554/img0537z.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/i/img0537z.jpg/)
Actually a very touching chapter ,_,

Bananoha

2010-07-30, 02:21

What is this Triangle Hearts doing in my Nanoha wwwww

brb kicking Tori

Evil Rick

2010-07-30, 02:22

White Devil changed for Emo-Nanoha...

Great work guys... -_-;

dragoncrusher

2010-07-30, 02:22

Strike Smasher!? O.O
i failed to notice this, but she has a new skill?
http://img37.nj.us.mangafox.com/store/manga/6822/01-009.0/compressed/k07.jpg

Nina.Wolken

2010-07-30, 03:55

White Devil changed for Emo-Nanoha...

What? Are you blaming a 5 ou 6 years old girl for crying while her father is on the verge of death and her familly threaten to fall appart at any moment? :/
The whole point of the chapter is to show how Nanoha overcame this dramatic event and decided to become stronger, hence not being "emo" anymore.

I can understand that people prefer to see their heroines "strong&cool", but it's not a bad thing to show that they are still human. Right? :uhoh:

Demi.

2010-07-30, 04:00

Every time someone cries in movie manga, someone else has a bitchfit... it's nothing new, lol.

Srsly though, they're tryin to be friends, (well, Nanoha is) right? Why so angry looking in battle.

This battles so long, the only foreseeable end is for them to both pass out and Nanoha to end up in Feito's arms.:hyper-^v^:

...Also, sew -- wats Nanoha planning to do with that Canon mode/o?

PhoenixFlare

2010-07-30, 05:07

@Phoenix: They already DID replace the Magical Girl portion of the title in Force.

It already is. Force is called "Mahou Senki Lyrical Force", aka Magic War Chronicle.

You guys are looking at the different thing, though. :heh:

"Magic(al)" should be removed, since the fights (current ones, anyway) no longer focus on the magical aspect which actually was one of the defining aspects of the series and are leaning heavily towards ... I don't know, who has a bigger gun/spear/axe/blade or something. Magic is still involved, but the role it plays has been downgraded so much that it seems more like a war of technology now.

Scarletknive

2010-07-30, 05:34

...Also, sew -- wats Nanoha planning to do with that Canon mode/o?

Let me guess? Mega Particle Cannon(Divine Buster)?
Hope it is not a Twin Buster Rifle(a.k.a Starlight Breaker)...

What? Are you blaming a 5 ou 6 years old girl for crying while her father is on the verge of death and her familly threaten to fall appart at any moment? :/
The whole point of the chapter is to show how Nanoha overcame this dramatic event and decided to become stronger, hence not being "emo" anymore.

I can understand that people prefer to see their heroines "strong&cool", but it's not a bad thing to show that they are still human. Right? :uhoh:

Quoted for Truth!

Sheba

2010-07-30, 05:41

"Magic(al)" should be removed, since the fights (current ones, anyway) no longer focus on the magical aspect which actually was one of the defining aspects of the series and are leaning heavily towards ... I don't know, who has a bigger gun/spear/axe/blade or something. Magic is still involved, but the role it plays has been downgraded so much that it seems more like a war of technology now.

That's part of the reason why I cringed at the whole mecha shoutout and slow shift to sci-fi. Not like I dislike sci-fi. But the whole arm race have been done at the expense of the "magical" part of the franchise. And no, we don't need pointy hats, robes and more fireballs of different shapes and colors. Unexplored magic domains could have been fine too! You know, shit like necromancy (what would you think of investigators trying to get the last minute of a dead with a ritual?), geomancy, rituals, expansion on the whole field of illusionary magic, or manipulation of shadows (http://guilty-gear.wikia.com/wiki/Eddie), mind manipulation, and anything you could either see in heroic fantasy games like Dungeons & Dragons or in modern fantasy like White Wolf's Mage (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Mage:_The_Ascension). Shit that would make mages feel like MAGES, and not just girls with gigantic boom sticks.

Arkeus

2010-07-30, 06:24

pff, most of those are there, they just may not be in big neon pink.

Marriage as Mind Control and Necromancy (or maybe Artifical Mages for that one), Acous or Reinforce Ein showed us a bit of Mind Reading, Rituals and Geomancy both were talked about....

Yeah, those could be used more in warfare onscreen, but that's just a matter of what is shown more, not what is there....

MeisterBabylon

2010-07-30, 07:35

Doesnt help that all those examples are examples of banned techniques of magic as well...

Kaijo

2010-07-30, 08:55

Which invariably points to the next question: Since anti-magic has been pushed for the past two seasons now, will it ever end at this stage? Nanoha and her friends' power ceilings are nigh unreachable right now, and if the sequels continue pushing for magic versus anti-magic, then the Magical Girl title in front of Nanoha should be replaced with something else. <.<

There are plenty of ways of making good opponents. The whole TSAB against them (aka Betrayers), other Aces, stronger magic users, those who fight with brains instead of strength (aka, a Chessmaster), etc. Anti-magic is just one of those ways, and with these new weapons, anti-magic shouldn't be much of a concern anymore, so future stories I imagine wouldn't use it so much.

What? Are you blaming a 5 ou 6 years old girl for crying while her father is on the verge of death and her familly threaten to fall appart at any moment? :/
The whole point of the chapter is to show how Nanoha overcame this dramatic event and decided to become stronger, hence not being "emo" anymore.

I can understand that people prefer to see their heroines "strong&cool", but it's not a bad thing to show that they are still human. Right? :uhoh:

Nothing in those pages is much different than what happened in S1... and Nanoha didn't cry out loud like she did in the manga. I'd be willing to accept a 5 or 6 year old Nanoha crying over her father at that point, but she didn't when she was 9. So we still don't have any plot-logical basis for her initial emoha outburst in the movie manga.

That's part of the reason why I cringed at the whole mecha shoutout and slow shift to sci-fi. Not like I dislike sci-fi. But the whole arm race have been done at the expense of the "magical" part of the franchise. And no, we don't need pointy hats, robes and more fireballs of different shapes and colors. Unexplored magic domains could have been fine too! You know, shit like necromancy (what would you think of investigators trying to get the last minute of a dead with a ritual?), geomancy, rituals, expansion on the whole field of illusionary magic, or manipulation of shadows (http://guilty-gear.wikia.com/wiki/Eddie), mind manipulation, and anything you could either see in heroic fantasy games like Dungeons & Dragons or in modern fantasy like White Wolf's Mage (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Mage:_The_Ascension). Shit that would make mages feel like MAGES, and not just girls with gigantic boom sticks.

Perhaps Nanoha magic doesn't quite work that way? I mean, after all, magic should allow for time travel too, and Chrono seems to think that's impossible. Perhaps the magic energy they draw can't do much besides what we've seen. And I really haven't seen much of an arms race; I mean, the devices got a slight upgrade in A's, then 10 years passed so I would expect a few new tricks, which is what they got in Strikers. Looks like a new spell or two by Vivid, and then two years later (which is 16 years since Nanoha started), they get a new device which is limited in scope and used to counter a specific kind of threat.

I'd hardly call that a continuous sci-fi upgrade.

By the way, you're geomancy example was already done in Vivid with Corona.

itanshi1

2010-07-30, 09:46

as i mentioned 'subtle additions' sometimes you don't make something even tho you can

Akiyoshi

2010-07-30, 10:46

There are plenty of ways of making good opponents. The whole TSAB against them (aka Betrayers), other Aces, stronger magic users, those who fight with brains instead of strength (aka, a Chessmaster), etc. Anti-magic is just one of those ways, and with these new weapons, anti-magic shouldn't be much of a concern anymore, so future stories I imagine wouldn't use it so much.

yes, they are much more creative forms of creting credible opponets but Tsuzuki simpli stops to care about small details like that, it would be awesome to see more "weak but skilled" character like Chrno showing off how deadly they can be(take the Lieze twins as an example, they can semmingly outmatch the entire Wolkenritter based mostly on pure skill, and then, both of them ends being outmached by Chrono himself! xD), an enemy with strategies and spells performed to counter his/her opponents, or enemies whos power levels are on the same scale(if not superior) to our heroines, or different kind of threat they have dificult fighting. Some people call anti-magic lazy and i agree with them, it's dissapointing that having so many forms to bring interesting battles they prefer to go for the "Oh! look shinny new weapons" route(wich is specially sad, considering how creative Tsuzuki was in the past, combining sorcery, curses, magic books, knights, castles filled with mechas, cosmic monsters, and magical girls asll of them combined with great mastery), but then again, this is based progresively more and more on a sci-fi mecha series so i think it's a natural consequence, they need an excuse to get rid of those "fancy magical weapons" so they bring out "Eclipse" who made them useless(except for Bardiche, HOORAY for him!). They have new weapons but they are limited in funcition compared with how unbelivable awesome they are with their old powers, even the upgraded Bardiche it's mentioned that it's much more effective under normal circunstances(and don't let me even begin with all the consequences for the unison devices, really, poor Agito -_-). So, even when they can fight against the Eclipse, you can only look at their attacks and think "wow, i wonder how powerfull that attack would get if not for that pesky anti-magic thing".

Finally i would LOVE to see a last saga where Anti-Magic is not involved and finally we get to see the awesomeness of our heroines. Again for the old Aces and for the first time for all the StrikerS bunch(specially Agito, i want her to show off of what she's capable against a real, counscicious opponent, not to a bunch of flying robots). Really my head finally cools and my anger at FORCE 007 finally minimizes the instant i've decided to stop take this manga seriously, i still following in hopes of a cool moment or two and see what plans are for Signum(and Agito, i really feel sorry for her). Other than that i've started to remeber the good times of the franchise an re-watching A's, even StrikerS have some good things(the Numbers among others xD), i can't say much about FORCE and ViVid overall purpouse but i think that it's a real bad idea to separate the two elements that combined give this franchise his "charm" in the past(Magical girls and touching stories blended with action packed mecha and some sci-fi/mistery genre). In other words FORCE and ViVid got the best aspect of the series "vivisectioned (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IncrediblyLamePun)" xDU.

JINNSK

2010-07-30, 11:34

if these are repost,please tell me.I'll delete.
iirc GAMERS tokuten was already posted in the image thread.

ViVid vol 2 tokuten for animate(mini artbook's cover in swimsuit)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_vivid_vol2_animate.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/vivid_vol2_animate.jpg)

ViVid vol 2 tokuten for keibunsha(message card in miko costume)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_vivid_vol2_keibunsha.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/vivid_vol2_keibunsha.jpg)

ViVid vol 2 tokuten for toranoana(special cover in tiger maid costume)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_vivid_vol2_tora_cover.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/vivid_vol2_tora_cover.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_vivid_vol2_tora_back.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/vivid_vol2_tora_back.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_vivid_vol2_tora_nano.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/vivid_vol2_tora_nano.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_vivid_vol2_tora_fate.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/vivid_vol2_tora_fate.jpg)

ViVid vol 2 tokuten for general book stores(message card in sportswear)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_vivid_vol2_message_card.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/vivid_vol2_message_card.jpg)

2 postcard from the latest Comp Ace
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_vivio.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_vivio.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_ein.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_ein.jpg)

Kaijo

2010-07-30, 11:42

yes, they are much more creative forms of creting credible opponets but Tsuzuki simpli stops to care about small details like that, .

I'm curious, what evidence do you have that he "simpli stops to care about small details like that"? You have that from an interview? Did he say something like that?

Because the Huckbein has so far proven to be credible opponents. As long as the villains of a series can be a logical threat, than they are "credible opponents" regardless of how exactly they accomplish that. It's like whining that your opponent brought a gun to a knife fight, or brought shields that can protect against your magical energy shots. Frankly, I consider it damn smart to toss these eclipse people at the Bureau. Makes me wonder who the chessmaster is behind this, as it can't exactly be coincidence that the Huckbein are doing things like this now.

Maybe you're right and Force will be the worst thing ever. But before we go off half-cocked saying how bad it is... maybe we should wait until the story is done? Perhaps the real enemy is someone manipulating the Huckbein and Bureau into fighting each other. For one thing, we don't know who exactly the scientists are working for, nor what their goals really are.

We just don't know, and at this point, it's a bit illogical to jump the gun, wouldn't you agree?

Evil Rick

2010-07-30, 12:09

What? Are you blaming a 5 ou 6 years old girl for crying while her father is on the verge of death and her familly threaten to fall appart at any moment? :/
The whole point of the chapter is to show how Nanoha overcame this dramatic event and decided to become stronger, hence not being "emo" anymore.

I can understand that people prefer to see their heroines "strong&cool", but it's not a bad thing to show that they are still human. Right? :uhoh:

Sure.. an 5-6 years old girl who reacts and express herself as a 30 years old woman... please. When working out the phsycological profile of a character, is very important to go with a logistic, don't make a toddler kid act like a mature adult, that's not emotive or touching, that's laughable.

And I'm against "strong&cool" characters, wich is the main thing Nanoha is in StrikerS. -_-;

Sheba

2010-07-30, 12:27

What the "Too wise for their age" characters will miss is the hilarity of such (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmv2d2S6L9Y) situations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvp82VRWr2U).

Nina.Wolken

2010-07-30, 12:42

Sure.. an 5-6 years old girl who reacts and express herself as a 30 years old woman... please. When working out the phsycological profile of a character, is very important to go with a logistic, don't make a toddler kid act like a mature adult, that's not emotive or touching, that's laughable.

6 years old Nanoha acts nothing like an adult :twitch:. She is in great distress but understands that she can't be a burden for her family given the situation. She simply decides to get a grip and be stronger.
I don't see what's wrong with showing how Nanoha became so mature so fast. That's something that I thought was always missing in her background and finally they give us a perfectly credible and logic explanation.
Plus they didn't transform her in some kind of cold-hearted machine by the time she is 9 : she breaks down at time like any other kid and cries when her feelings overflow (see the scenes in the Movie or manga when she can't communicate with Fate to simply tell her that she wants to be friend with her).

Akiyoshi

2010-07-30, 12:56

Because the Huckbein has so far proven to be credible opponents. As long as the villains of a series can be a logical threat, than they are "credible opponents" regardless of how exactly they accomplish that. It's like whining that your opponent brought a gun to a knife fight, or brought shields that can protect against your magical energy shots. Frankly, I consider it damn smart to toss these eclipse people at the Bureau. Makes me wonder who the chessmaster is behind this, as it can't exactly be coincidence that the Huckbein are doing things like this now.

I'm not sayin they're not threatening, apparently each one of theam(or at least Cypha) when "reacted" can singlehandledy obliterate each hero or villain of previous season withot any effort at all. So yeah, they're unveliabable threatening, but lazy as hell xDU. Again, anti-magic "feels" like an excuse to get rid of previous standarts and stablish a more "militaristic, grey and moraly complex" settings (regardless of how realistic they trying to put it out). About the "gun into a knife fight" thing, it maybe true, in real life, this is not real life, it's an action series, things are not suppussed to be "realistic"(they're mages who can fly and fight with energy blasts and transformig magical weapons for god's sake) Huckebein's powers are a joke plotwise(offending to say the worst), sure, that is the common practice in real life, but they're comic book villains!(i mean ..manga villains! xDU) their kind of menace feels so out of place that looks unsetting, and things from this point are more like the entire nanohaverse is trying to adapt to the appearance of these guys. the sudden change from "action-packed" couraged heroes to "on noes, our powers won't work anymore" made all battles, traning and horoic resolves look pointless if they can just grab a new toy and pull the trigger.

Maybe i'm wrong, maybe it ends in a good way but, just as you just write, at this point this is how things looks like, depend on Tsuzuki skill, what's next, i don't care much about that, i'm here only to watch my favourite characters doing cool things in this new "unsetting world".

Evil Rick

2010-07-30, 13:02

6 years old Nanoha acts nothing like an adult :twitch:. She is in great distress but understands that she can't be a burden for her family given the situation. She simply decides to get a grip and be stronger.
I don't see what's wrong with showing how Nanoha became so mature so fast. That's something that I thought was always missing in her background and finally they give us a perfectly credible and logic explanation.
Plus they didn't transform her in some kind of cold-hearted machine by the time she is 9 : she breaks down at time like any other kid and cries when her feelings overflow (see the scenes in the Movie or manga when she can't communicate with Fate to simply tell her that she wants to be friend with her).

Even when you have a point in several things, I still find it too irrealistic and cliched, since the first season, this moment seemed far too odd, at leats for my own taste.

After all, trough the 3 season Nanoha has shown a bi-polar attitude, First season was "way too mature kid" second was "Friendly fellow" First half of the third was "Strong-dedicated teacher" second half was "protective mother" In vivid is "Lovely dedicated mother" and in the Movie manga is "Emo-kid"

Oh wait, perhaps I see a patron :uhoh:

Meh, just my opinion. Weeeeeeee!!! :hyper-^v^:

Bananoha

2010-07-30, 13:06

Er, wasn't everyone but Vivid and Subaru at first "too mature for their age"? Not including normal people like Alisa and Suzuka.

Kaijo

2010-07-30, 13:19

I'm not sayin they're not threatening, apparently each one of theam(or at least Cypha) when "reacted" can singlehandledy obliterate each hero or villain of previous season withot any effort at all. So yeah, they're unveliabable threatening, but lazy as hell xDU.

I don't think it's lazy at all. They've established that the antagonists are a threat; you NEED to do that in order to set up tension. And it makes sense in the Nanohaverse, since we already established anti-magic, that it can be taken to extremes. Now the heroes have to learn to deal with that, and we'll see how well their new tactics and weapons work.

Anti-magic exists because every particle has it's anti-particle. Every force has an equal and opposing force.

Again, anti-magic "feels" like an excuse to get rid of previous standarts and stablish a more "militaristic, grey and moraly complex" settings (regardless of how realistic they trying to put it out).

I don't think anti-magic is the cause for making it more "grey and moraly complex"; I think Tsuzuki is making it a bit bloodier just to change the overall tone of the series. Vivid and Force seem to be pushing in opposite directions as a way to experiment. He could have made a chessmaster and still made it "militaristic, grey and moraly complex." In fact, if it was more like BetrayerS, I think it would fit your description there more accurately than anti-magic would.

the sudden change from "action-packed" couraged heroes to "on noes, our powers won't work anymore" made all battles, traning and horoic resolves look pointless if they can just grab a new toy and pull the trigger.

You're jumping the gun again. We don't know how well these new toys will work. Odds are, it'll still require skill to work and it'll still be a tough fight. To do otherwise would remove the tension. Wait until we at least see how well these things work in practice, eh?

Your concerns could be valid, but the point is we don't know yet. Let it at least play out, before we say overall how good or bad it is. S1 and StrikerS ended much differently than they started out. We got two very good plot twists in S1, and a surprising change of tone just after the midway point of StrikerS. Even A's gave us twists in antagonists, who turned out not to be so evil despite Vita seeming like it when she attacked Nanoha.

At this point, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Akiyoshi

2010-07-30, 13:40

At this point, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Me too but i think that it would bad if Cypha turns to the good guys side, i have hope that at least Tsuzuki evolves well her path as an outstanding villain, if she becomes "good" the entire point of getting Signum defeated would be pointless. And talking about that, it feels specially jarring becauseTsuzuki take one of the strongest characters on the entire franchise, put her on a fight with UPGRADES! ....and then made her nearly killed just to show off how useless and pointless all progress and abilities they achieve up until this point is(i don't argue abot cypha winning, but it's a bit unconvincing how futile they made Signum attempts to fight, right after being stablished to be on par with Nanoha). Thus making the necessity to completely change the franchise dynamics.

I still retain some hope that things get balanced again, i just, like somebody say repeated times, don't have them too high raised. What i'm sayin is that FORCE can MAYBE get good, but at the moment i don't see much signs of said potential(besides Bardiche and the little hope his return gives me xD).

Nina.Wolken

2010-07-30, 13:44

Er, wasn't everyone but Vivid and Subaru at first "too mature for their age"? Not including normal people like Alisa and Suzuka.

Indeed, but they all have good reasons for that : they all lose their family (Linith in the case of Fate) and had to survive by themselves more or less. They had to be mature at a very young age and fans accept this explanation easily.
Nanoha in the other hand is the only member of the main cast to have a quite "normal" past and whose parents are still alive.
However her past wasn't all that happy and she too got her share of troubles and hard times, which lead her to become such a determinate character. She remains special in that that she consciously changed her way of being at a very young age so that she wouldn't lose anything precious to her anymore (if I understand this last chapter right). Put all together, I really felt like this chapter made her re-/actions more believable.
Now time for befriending pleaz! (*≧艸≦)

RadiantBeam

2010-07-30, 14:14

Demi.

2010-07-30, 14:28

You know, it's an AU manga and all...And it might be just picking up points which the original anime did not delve deep enough into.

Just because Nanoha didn't cry much in the series, doesn't mean she didn't cry off-screen. It took her about 30seconds to start crying when Fate was leaving for her trial, I can't imagine why her father nearly dieing wouldn't bear the same affect.

RadiantBeam

2010-07-30, 14:37

I'm just making a comment. :p I can certainly respect that the AU movie manga is touching on things that we never saw developed in the original series, but that doesn't mean I have to like how they've done it so far. Especially with Nanoha's character.

Koveras Alvane

2010-07-30, 16:03

Looks like Tsuzuki himself is surprised to find that Signum actually have a fanbase xDU ...well at least he finally notices xDU.

Not a month too soon, as well. :-\

Akiyoshi

2010-07-30, 16:43

Not a month too soon, as well. :-\

Amen bro, amen -_-

Besides, there are previews of the new Vivid chapter xD? i want to know what's next after all the atomic fun(something interesting will be if some bad mean guys or abusive familiars appear looking for Einhart) xD

Page claimed for a pink haired angel (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383) sleeping pacefully in a hostpial's bed.

00-Raiser

2010-07-30, 18:06

if these are repost,please tell me.I'll delete.

All this stuff is new, thanks a bunch :D

If you get your hands on some more, please share! There's another swimsuit cover, right? One with Rio and Corona on it?

Bananoha

2010-07-30, 18:49

MUST NOT GET MIKO COVER, FFFFFFFFFFF. Need to save up for that giant Nanoha plushie. 30k yen, man.Nanoha in the other hand is the only member of the main cast to have a quite "normal" past and whose parents are still alive.'ay, having one parent is still good! Right, Subaru. T_T

From the few sentences I could understand because the lack of furigana makes me a sad panda, my poor Nanoha in this chapter. ._.Any idea when it will be translated?I think ZSS' translator is still in China. And the guy who typesets/cleans/IforgetwhatToridoes is lazy party partyyyyy.

They do have raws for the chapter before this one at least. Raw availability is the biggest blah for us. D:

Tiresias

2010-07-30, 20:54

'ay, having one parent is still good! Right, Subaru. T_T

Subaru: "Of course! ...now if only my siblings could stay sane and not, y'know, go evil..."

From the few sentences I could understand because the lack of furigana makes me a sad panda, my poor Nanoha in this chapter. ._.I think ZSS' translator is still in China. And the guy who typesets/cleans/IforgetwhatToridoes is lazy party partyyyyy.

Just wondering, does anyone has a good idea on why she cried? Is it because:
1. Her dear father almost died (very understandable)
2. She felt helpless about the whole situation (equally understandable)
3. She regrets not being strong enough to protect him (definitely not normal 6-year old train of thought)

...what? Number 3, silly as it is (for a 6-year old to think of it), has defined so many heroes (especially messianic ones) that you just can't help but wonder...:uhoh:

RadiantBeam

2010-07-30, 21:20

Subaru: "Of course! ...now if only my siblings could stay sane and not, y'know, go evil..."

Ginga: HEY! Come on, that was only once!

Just wondering, does anyone has a good idea on why she cried? Is it because:
1. Her dear father almost died (very understandable)
2. She felt helpless about the whole situation (equally understandable)
3. She regrets not being strong enough to protect him (definitely not normal 6-year old train of thought)

...what? Number 3, silly as it is (for a 6-year old to think of it), has defined so many heroes (especially messianic ones) that you just can't help but wonder...:uhoh:

It could also be 4. She feels lonely, which was something that came up as a major factor for her past in the anime. Which is, again, understandable for a six-year-old kid; she's old enough to know what's going on, but young enough to still want attention for herself.

JINNSK

2010-07-30, 22:18

All this stuff is new, thanks a bunch :D

If you get your hands on some more, please share! There's another swimsuit cover, right? One with Rio and Corona on it?

swimsuit Rio and Corona in special cover...hmmmmmmmm
This?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_cover.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_cover.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_back.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_back.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_cover_nano.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_cover_nano.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_cover_fate.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_cover_fate.jpg)

Bananoha

2010-07-30, 22:32

Just wondering, does anyone has a good idea on why she cried?Asked a friend if she had time and managed to get a little more than what I asked for. n_Npage 2:
My father was in an accident and was hospitalized.

My parents were on the verge of achieving their dreams: opening up a cafe outside the station.

page 3:
Though Kyouya-chan and Miyuki-chan were both small,

I was even smaller.

My father, lying there atop the pure-white hospital bed, would not open his eyes.

Page 4:
I could do nothing but wait.

[er this bit is a bit weird but I think it's like:]
What I understood, what I was sad about,

Is that even when I was right before the source of the sadness,

Even before the people that were sad, I could do nothing.

I was too small and powerless.

Page 5:
So

When I was alone, I cried a lot.

It wasn't because I was lonely. I just couldn't stand it. (better tl for kuyashii plz)

Page 6:
We became friends because of you, Nanoha-chan

(*nom nom*)

(cannot read side thing.)

A mischievous girl, and

a crybaby. (crying girl? seems weird to go literally??)

Page 7:
cut off bubbles~

If something precious to you was taken away or dirtied, I'm sure you would suffer a lot. (your heart would hurt, w/e)

Definitely much more than being hit, and for longer too!

Even you wouldn't enjoy it one bit.
If you're gonna play, then everyone's gotta be smiling and having fun. Right?

You're not wrong, but...

Do you get called weird a lot?

......Hey you. What's your name?

Page 9:
what the fuck is nanoha saying
something like "And now for some blasting magic!"

Fighting with you has caused me to remember some things.

Page 10
yeah like nanoha is shouting shit, whatever

RadiantBeam

2010-07-30, 22:34

Turns out option 2 was right, in that case. :heh:

Tiresias

2010-07-30, 23:27

Turns out option 2 was right, in that case. :heh:

Thank God :heh:. Hearing number 3 from a 25-year old Nanoha is fine (hey, it's part of the job), hearing it from a 6 year old would either be narmful or terrifying :uhoh:

Wait, did she said that her father was in an accident? So I guess back then she had yet to know of the Takamachi business :rolleyes: ?

Nanoha (10 year old): "Father, the truth is ... I want to become a magical (soldier) girl!" <closes eyes, prepares for a long tirade about danger, responsibility, maturity etc>
Father: "Okay" <sips tea>
Nanoha: "Eh?" <beat> " Err, I actually expected you to be more opposed to the idea..."
Father: "My daughter, there's something you must know..."

00-Raiser

2010-07-31, 00:28

swimsuit Rio and Corona in special cover...hmmmmmmmm
This?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_cover.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_cover.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_back.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_back.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_cover_nano.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_cover_nano.jpg) http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/th_CA201009_cover_fate.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/nanoha/magazine/compace/CA201009_cover_fate.jpg)

Those are the ones! Thanks :D

itanshi1

2010-07-31, 00:29

Thank God :heh:. Hearing number 3 from a 25-year old Nanoha is fine (hey, it's part of the job), hearing it from a 6 year old would either be narmful or terrifying :uhoh:

Wait, did she said that her father was in an accident? So I guess back then she had yet to know of the Takamachi business :rolleyes: ?

Nanoha (10 year old): "Father, the truth is ... I want to become a magical (soldier) girl!" <closes eyes, prepares for a long tirade about danger, responsibility, maturity etc>
Father: "Okay" <sips tea>
Nanoha: "Eh?" <beat> " Err, I actually expected you to be more opposed to the idea..."
Father: "My daughter, there's something you must know..."

Father: when i was you age, i was a magical boy, i had this magical stick and i hit crazy women with it until i met your mother. after that, well, you know the rest
Nanoha: AAAGH DAD

Koveras Alvane

2010-07-31, 04:37

Page claimed for a pink haired angel (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383) sleeping pacefully in a hostpial's bed.

That is, what, third page claim for her already?.. That's not good enough, she deserves more! ;)

Father: when i was you age, i was a magical boy, i had this magical stick and i hit crazy women with it until i met your mother. after that, well, you know the rest
Nanoha: AAAGH DAD

Shirou: And there was this dark magical boy I was pretty close with after I befriended the crap out of him...
Nanoha: I don't want to know!! *ruuunnz*

Tiresias

2010-07-31, 04:49

Father: when i was you age, i was a magical boy, i had this magical stick and i hit crazy women with it until i met your mother. after that, well, you know the rest
Nanoha: AAAGH DAD

Say what?! Nasty double entendre...:twitch:

Shirou: And there was this dark magical boy I was pretty close with after I befriended the crap out of him...
Nanoha: I don't want to know!! *ruuunnz*

Neither do I!

..no wonder she ended up (on-screen) chaste :uhoh:

PS: For a minute, when I read "Shirou" I was thinking of another horny bastard

Wait, did Shirou had his own share of conquest in Triangle Hearts? :heh:

Nya~n

2010-07-31, 06:32

trying hard not to picture Shirou befriending Clyde, and the consequent yaoi undertones...

ah, screw it, if the shippers can have their nanofate yuri OVERTONES THAT GO NOWHERE TO SOLVING THE SHIPPING ISSUE, then i'm going to want my ShiLyde yaoi!

Koveras Alvane

2010-07-31, 07:06

My God, what have I done. -__-

itanshi1

2010-07-31, 08:35

Well, I wasn't trying to make a joke about befriending, but that's cute :D

Nya~n

2010-07-31, 08:52

You have no idea how much i'm loving the idea of Hiroyuki-kun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Heart) whacking the Count of Monte Cristo on the head.

Bananoha

2010-07-31, 19:05

http://vfyf.blog33.fc2.com/blog-entry-483.html

I am in dire need of scans.

PLASMA PILE

MeisterBabylon

2010-07-31, 19:31

From the front, the Huckbein ship looks like the Neue Zeil. :twitch:

00-Raiser

2010-07-31, 21:24

http://vfyf.blog33.fc2.com/blog-entry-483.html

I am in dire need of scans.

PLASMA PILE

Heh, Erio's almost a full head taller than Subaru now XD

aers

2010-07-31, 21:49

Nanya01

2010-07-31, 22:10

Blank-Mage

2010-08-01, 00:31

Koveras Alvane

2010-08-01, 02:03

Huh, so the Hucks' ship is also powered by a cute little girl? I'm sure Nanoha will be pleased, Vivio will be getting a sister real soon. Blaster 3 + Strike Cannon + Starlight Breaker = The Most Violent Befriending Yet?

Provided they can find a cure for Eclipse until then... I doubt the Takamachi family will allow a human timebomb to live in her house. Although... don't tell me. The cure for Eclipse IS Blaster 3 + Strike Cannon + Starlight Breaker combo? :uhoh: The series did always solve problems with more firepower, after all... :upset:

FlameSparkZ

2010-08-01, 03:16

Another loli-powered airship...I wonder how many did Belka make :heh::heh:

Blank-Mage

2010-08-01, 04:53

Provided they can find a cure for Eclipse until then... I doubt the Takamachi family will allow a human timebomb to live in her house. Although... don't tell me. The cure for Eclipse IS Blaster 3 + Strike Cannon + Starlight Breaker combo? :uhoh: The series did always solve problems with more firepower, after all... :upset:

I'm sure they'll just blast the Eclipse out with sheer magical damage. That's how biology works, right?

Another loli-powered airship...I wonder how many did Belka make :heh::heh:

Between the Tomes, Airships, Knight Programs, Unison Devices, Drone Gadgets, and Dividers, Belka was evidently batshit insane.

Sheba

2010-08-01, 05:54

By that logic, cancer and AIDS in Nanoverse should be cured with SLB, because it's the solution to EVERYTHING. :rolleyes:

dahak

2010-08-01, 06:06

Still kind of confused how they went from "Nanoha is doing testing on the Strike Cannon and Vita isn't good enough to use hers yet" to "we have a version of it Erio can use" in the course of half a day. >_>

What they said was there was no one other than Nanoha on the instruction team who could use a Strike Cannon and though they'd made at least 2 only Nanoha's was undergoing field testing at that time.

Doesn't stop Erio jacking Vita's. Or Mariel slipping one to Lutecia to customise for him.

FlameSparkZ

2010-08-01, 06:11

Between the Tomes, Airships, Knight Programs, Unison Devices, Drone Gadgets, and Dividers, Belka was evidently batshit insane.
You forgot a certain Dark King :p

aers

2010-08-01, 10:31

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/3527/tbcw.jpghttp://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8516/force09e1.jpg

Don't let me down next month, Tsuzuki!

Ottocycle

2010-08-01, 10:58

LoweGear

2010-08-01, 11:09

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/3527/tbcw.jpghttp://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8516/force09e1.jpg

Don't let me down next month, Tsuzuki!

Translation please? :heh:

Although the image itself... Nanoha's 2nd Upgrade?!?! :eek:

ZeroIchiNi

2010-08-01, 12:12

Translation please? :heh:

Although the image itself... Nanoha's 2nd Upgrade?!?! :eek:

New mode perhaps?

Jimmy C

2010-08-01, 12:28

Raising Heart did mention a Fortress Mode a chapter or two ago.

Doraneko

2010-08-01, 12:40

The tone of the preview sounds like a crossover announcement.

Nanoha's gonna be the next Force NEXT spread again with a new weapon. Nice. At least we get to remember that even though Fate is getting two images in her spread, Nanoha's still the main character and gets two spreads. :p

Nice. I have been longing for the detailed specs of Nanoha's "Fortress." But then it is equally likely that they will be talking about a completely different weapon.

From the speed they mechanize Nanoha, very soon she will be like this. :heh:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1356/nanoha3.jpg

Nvis

2010-08-01, 12:56

The Good Guys need to win this one....

RadiantBeam

2010-08-01, 13:43

From the speed they mechanize Nanoha, very soon she will be like this. :heh:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1356/nanoha3.jpg

This has been their intention all along. :heh: They just needed a reason to keep giving her more powerful weapons.

Tabasco

2010-08-01, 15:32

This has been their intention all along. :heh: They just needed a reason to keep giving her more powerful weapons.

*enters mecha fanboy mode*

How is this a problem?!

*/ end mode*

Love the pic, even if it is a bit more 'Space Marine' than I'd expect to happen.

Anyway, the whole line about the 'main armament' of the ship in this engagement being Nanoha and Vita still bothers me, even if it has been beaten to death already.

What I'm really hoping will happen is we get a real 'ship to ship' action to cover the two infiltrators, with or without some nice aerial combat against any Hucks that try to stop them. Then we can have the compartment to compartment and corridor to corridor fight inside the ship. Having Nanoha repeat her trick of bypassing the obstacles via superior firepower right off the bat somehow feels wrong.

NorthernFallout

2010-08-01, 16:07

If they go even more mecha than it already is I'm out for good. It's a miracle Force managed to bring me back slightly...

Demi.

2010-08-01, 16:33

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/3527/tbcw.jpghttp://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8516/force09e1.jpg

Don't let me down next month, Tsuzuki!

Another upgrade? She just used her previous one in the most recent Force.

Anyone mind translating the whole bit of that Force Next insert?

Moczo

2010-08-01, 16:44

Another upgrade? She just used her previous one in the most recent Force.

She did mention another one that wasn't ready yet; presumably this is the... 'Fortress', I think it was called?

Demi.

2010-08-01, 17:00

Fortress mode? Erza Scarlet comes to mind...

Rising Dragon

2010-08-01, 17:03

With every season, Nanoha becomes closer to fulfilling her destiny of becoming a Gundam in a white dress.

MeisterBabylon

2010-08-01, 18:06

RH-78-20A + CW-AECO2X Strike Fortress Nanoha Gundam. :uhoh:

00-Raiser

2010-08-01, 18:12

Fortress mode?

http://i27.tinypic.com/4f4oy.jpg

... We're fucked now!

RadiantBeam

2010-08-01, 19:18

With every season, Nanoha becomes closer to fulfilling her destiny of becoming a Gundam in a white dress.

Being a magical girl with a weapon that shoots befriends her enemies to death wasn't enough for her?

itanshi1

2010-08-01, 20:16

these come to mind http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii236/archaim_the_great/TF%20collection/decepticoncity23.jpg

http://lolligagger.com/wp-content/gallery/fortress-maximus/fortress-maximus-city-side-2.jpg

Kaijo

2010-08-01, 21:04

Fortress Maximus and Trypticon? No Metroplex?(I used to have that one... =( )

PhoenixFlare

2010-08-01, 21:30

Rising Dragon

2010-08-01, 21:51

Being a magical girl with a weapon that shoots befriends her enemies to death wasn't enough for her?

... was it ever?

Sheba

2010-08-02, 01:36

From the speed they mechanize Nanoha, very soon she will be like this. :heh:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1356/nanoha3.jpg

All I have to see is EEEEEeeeeeeeeeewww

*enters mecha fanboy mode*

How is this a problem?!

*/ end mode*

It's a problem for anyone who is NOT a mecha fan. I come here for the magical battles, not to see the characters slowly turning into Gundams.

I think that whole RAAAAR MECHA thing is rubbed into my face with the subtlety of Haruhi references in Lucky*Star, now I know how some people felt back in the day. So yeah, you can count me with AX as one of those that will definitely stop caring for this franchise if it ever takes that route.

PS: In the field of magical science-fiction, Guilty Gearverse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPA3Y-acjb0) is superior. \m/

Nanya01

2010-08-02, 01:41

From the speed they mechanize Nanoha, very soon she will be like this. :heh:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1356/nanoha3.jpg

Heh... Awesome.

Evil Rick

2010-08-02, 02:23

Nice. I have been longing for the detailed specs of Nanoha's "Fortress." But then it is equally likely that they will be talking about a completely different weapon.

From the speed they mechanize Nanoha, very soon she will be like this. :heh:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1356/nanoha3.jpg

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1859/icecubewtf.gif

Nightengale

2010-08-02, 02:23

Nanoha's wings looks like it'll be Funnel Wings more than anything else, so a bombardment fortress more like. :/

There is still the yet-to-be explained Zero Effect, which is also another probable matter in regards to combating Eclipse. From what AEC has demonstrated so far ( in their manual explanations ), it still doesn't seem anywhere near actually beating Huckenbein, considering that any damage to their 'extremely rock-solid' bodies will still be regenerated within seconds, almost painless even. I mentioned it before, but I suspect it's a trick that nullifies or... destroys Reactors.

Perfect moral horizon for Thoma, who just so happens to possess the only 'living' Reactor so far. Otherwise, the development so far would be quite redundant, since at this juncture, Thoma would still undoubtedly choose TSAB's help rather than ally themselves with some shady, acknowledged mercenaries who kill almost indiscriminately.

FlameSparkZ

2010-08-02, 03:06

Nanoha's wings looks like it'll be Funnel Wings more than anything else, so a bombardment fortress more like. :/

There is still the yet-to-be explained Zero Effect, which is also another probable matter in regards to combating Eclipse. From what AEC has demonstrated so far ( in their manual explanations ), it still doesn't seem anywhere near actually beating Huckenbein, considering that any damage to their 'extremely rock-solid' bodies will still be regenerated within seconds, almost painless even. I mentioned it before, but I suspect it's a trick that nullifies or... destroys Reactors.
And from the previews I saw, Nanoha's Strike Cannon's battery was already at 40% :uhoh:
...may have read it wrong though :heh:

Tiresias

2010-08-02, 05:34

Nice. I have been longing for the detailed specs of Nanoha's "Fortress." But then it is equally likely that they will be talking about a completely different weapon.

What seems certain is that whatever new equipment she's gonna get changes her costume; maybe it's an armor? Of course, this would raise question on why the ranged air mage gets this before the melee oriented ones, especialy Signum. OTOH, maybe Signum's armament was supposed to be an armor...

One thing though; my eyes may be deceiving me but the Blaster Bits seems different. Maybe it's part of the whole package? :confused:

From the speed they mechanize Nanoha, very soon she will be like this. :heh:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1356/nanoha3.jpg

Slim protagonist + Bulky armor = desperate search for brain bleach :eyebrow: ; especially since we can see just how thin her legs are and how small her head is compared to the armor...

That armor only looks fitting if Nanoha protagonists look like this:
http://a.imageshack.us/img821/7340/9771748.th.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/9771748.jpg/)

Koveras Alvane

2010-08-02, 10:55

Another loli-powered airship...I wonder how many did Belka make :heh::heh:

Evidently, they were just as staunch believers in loli power as Japan is. :D

I'm sure they'll just blast the Eclipse out with sheer magical damage. That's how biology works, right?

Yup, that must be something genetic, even.

Between the Tomes, Airships, Knight Programs, Unison Devices, Drone Gadgets, and Dividers, Belka was evidently batshit insane.

Well, I am not sure it was a clinical condition, but more like it was the world that was mad during the Belkan Warring Ages. ^^; Everyone was fighting everyone in one grand free for all, and we all know from our own history how stupid/insane people get when they start to believe that violence is the only path to security. ^^

By that logic, cancer and AIDS in Nanoverse should be cured with SLB, because it's the solution to EVERYTHING. :rolleyes:

Why do you think there is no mention of cancer or other non-magical deceases in Nanoha? :D The only terminally ill characters so far were Hayate and Zest. The rest were probably healed of all ailments by the Great Pink Beam-O-War. :D

From the speed they mechanize Nanoha, very soon she will be like this. :heh:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1356/nanoha3.jpg

Just so that Tabasco doesn't feel so lonely and vulnerable, I also come out as a mecha fan. :D I find that image plain badass. Seriously, is that a cartridge belt? Does that mean the Cannon can shoot cartridges in full auto? O__O Remember, it too a single clip to blast through half the Saint's Cradle. Now imagine what THAT gun can do. :D

*Signum vs. Cypha fight REWIND*
Cypha: *cross-slashes Signum*
Signum: *falls*

*in orbit over Ruwella*
Hayate: Drop the package.
Lucino: *presses button* Package deployed.

*back planetside*
Cypha: The foolishness of confronting us... shall be demonstrated again by your death. *hears sound* What the hell?
Meteorite: *leaves a crater 100 m from Signum*
Smoke: *clears*
Nanoha in Fortress Suit: *emerges, aims Cannon*
Fortress Suit: *makes cool buzzing noises as she stands up*
Strike Cannon: *spins up*
Cypha: *smug smirk, activates magic nullification*
Rounds: *explode*
König: *out of energy*
Cypha: Oh, FUCK. *is blasted*
Nanoha: *even smugger smirk* You lose.
Arnage: *runs for her life*

Except that Eclipse is said to be able to nullify magic ... unless Nanoha fires the magic-powered physical shots at them with Strike Cannon instead. >.>

Nah, you just have to pump enough magical energy into you attack for Eclipse to not be able to keep up with it. :D EC breaks the magic energy links, and that's a task that consumes energy. Unless EC Drivers have an infinite supply of it, they will run out sooner or later. Another alternative is to beamspam the Divider until it can no longer handle the breaking part. ^^

Kaijo

2010-08-02, 11:47

With so many ways to make the series interesting, Tsuzuki is sticking to the most apparent solution to Nanoha and her friends' (nigh unreachable) power ceiling: anti-magic. Now, obviously, for any mages, having something that can totally counter all your attacks will be a total pain in the rear, but it does not make the opponents interesting -- in that none of them are actually stronger, a chessmaster, etc. They are just your usual opponents given a really, really thick plot armor at the start.

Given that "interesting" is a subjective term, I have to question it. To me, interesting is the personality and motivations of the antagonists, not in their power. Would it make it more "interesting" to you if, instead of magical nullification power, that Cypha instead was just a stronger mage, and thus beat down Signum that way? Would it make her more interesting if she was the same power level, but just out thought Signum?

The end result is the same; Signum critically injured. I'm just wondering if you consider the other possible methods to make Huckbein a threat, would somehow make them more interesting to you, since you seem to think that magic nullification isn't it.

To me, just being stronger isn't enough for me to take them as a serious enough threat. No matter how strong a mages they are, then, they can be taken down with sheer numbers. Chessmasters always mess up somehow, or fail to take into account just how strong the heroes are, so that's usually not quite enough for me to consider them a threat (unless they are really playing in the shadows).

Right now, the magic nullification has me seeing them as a pretty damn good threat, and with Signum so badly beat, it does make me worry enough to see if they can be defeated, even with the new gear. Somehow, I expect the new gear isn't as powerful as their old, just more focused into a specific effect, so the fights will still be tough. And if their gears gets broken, they are screwed. Thus, Hayate is taking quite a chance confronting them now, but I understand why; because she's trying to prevent more civilian death.

I just wonder where Caro is, and what her new gear would be like. Technically speaking, Voltaire punching them would a physical attack rather than magical, heh.

Blank-Mage

2010-08-02, 12:22

Here's an idea, what if Nanoha and Co. actually don't manage to accomplish anything, and it's down to Thoma to do all the ass-kicking? He is the main character, after all.

Yasanagi

2010-08-02, 12:39

I would like to see that. Complete with Limit Breaks and awesome battle music composed by Nobuo Uematsu!

Akiyoshi

2010-08-02, 14:10

Here's an idea, what if Nanoha and Co. actually don't manage to accomplish anything, and it's down to Thoma to do all the ass-kicking? He is the main character, after all.

If things happen exactly that way, Touma would be reagarded as a cheap Marty Stu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu) character for the rest of his existence -_-

Sure he's the main character now(just like Subaru in StrikerS ...oh well, maybe a little more than Subaru in StrikerS xDU) but Nanoha's name is still in the title so she needs te get some ass-kicking for herself, it would be very pissing the other way.

To me, just being stronger isn't enough for me to take them as a serious enough threat. No matter how strong a mages they are, then, they can be taken down with sheer numbers. Chessmasters always mess up somehow, or fail to take into account just how strong the heroes are, so that's usually not quite enough for me to consider them a threat (unless they are really playing in the shadows).

Right now, the magic nullification has me seeing them as a pretty damn good threat, and with Signum so badly beat, it does make me worry enough to see if they can be defeated, even with the new gear. Somehow, I expect the new gear isn't as powerful as their old, just more focused into a specific effect, so the fights will still be tough. And if their gears gets broken, they are screwed. Thus, Hayate is taking quite a chance confronting them now, but I understand why; because she's trying to prevent more civilian death.

We can't find that interesting because it would make the heroes powers look "pontless". If Cypha and the Huckebein was just stronger or more powerfull then Signum and the heroes have no excuse, neither the audience(it's a pain in the ass to keep trying to figure how the fight would be resolved without Signum being handicaped) and the Heroes will be must be obligued to become stronger or smarter ....or both and overcome their justified superior opponents. The opposite also works, as i said before, most of the Numbers are actually WEAKER than the Aces, their tacticall advantage, teamwork skills and well organized capabilites i what made them a very threatening force, that work wonders in the plot because as individuals they're on a slightly higher level than the forwards, but united, even the Aces struggle against their schemes to achieve victory and protect the people.

About the AEC equipement i agree with your toughts, they're prototypes made for specific use and i also believe that a good twist is that they're result to being less RAW powerfull than the Intelligent/Armed Devices, that and the fact that, as Laevatein's event shows, if you lose your weapon in front of a Huckebein you're completely screwed. But again it gives an uneasy feelings about wondering how awesome the heroes would be if they can fight with all their power.

My guess is that all of this "anti-magic" or "mage killer" thing would be more acceptable if they're was use it more early in the plot, i mean, after two full seasons of watching our heroes overcome stronger opponents learning the basics of magic, finding their way in lives and grow as mature experienced mages, only to find that some bad guys can "nullify" the fruits of years of traning, legendary battles and great amounts of character development, that is specially dissapointing(like if in Tenguen Toppa Gurren Lagann, some bad guys would appear who have the power to "negate" spiral energy and let Simon and the Dai Gurren-dan totally helpless and in need to recurring to more "realistic mecha").

Other point where i agree with you is that the Huckebein fortunately is stiil in early stage of character development and we need to wait until see how well they develop, because well, their powers sucks but not on the threat scale(they're very threatening), they suck plotwise, and push our heroes to do the same with their "Anti-Anti-Magic" weapons(the fights on StrikerS are more or less acceptable but inferior to A's and i think it will be the same here despite the upgraded amounts of blood and carnage). So at least i hope that they get well developed as villains(i think Cypha can be make a damn good smug snake (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake) villain).

EDIT: Page claimed for Shamal carefully attending our beloved Blazing General's (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383) wounds.

Takamura Mamoru

2010-08-02, 16:03

Here's an idea, what if Nanoha and Co. actually don't manage to accomplish anything, and it's down to Thoma to do all the ass-kicking? He is the main character, after all.

How about no? :rolleyes:

Sheba

2010-08-02, 16:15

Here's an idea, what if Nanoha and Co. actually don't manage to accomplish anything, and it's down to Thoma to do all the ass-kicking? He is the main character, after all.
I would love to see Touma getting his act together and solve his issues without having to be shot by SLB like those in the previous seasons. At least Dean Winchester saved Earth without calling Michael and all of this while sticking to his original motive, "Free Will and humanity shall prevail".

RadiantBeam

2010-08-02, 16:54

Here's an idea, what if Nanoha and Co. actually don't manage to accomplish anything, and it's down to Thoma to do all the ass-kicking? He is the main character, after all.

This. I approve of this. :D It would be awesome if Thoma could become an ass-kicker without having to get SLB'd in the face by Nanoha to "befriend" him first. So, yes please, I completely love this idea.

Goldsmith

2010-08-02, 20:40

Touma should just leave everything to Isis.

Akiyoshi

2010-08-02, 20:53

Touma should just leave everything to Isis.

That's it, one of the few things that still get my curiosity going on is all the spectative Isis is getting, having no backstory at the moment, being regarded as the "most dangerous" of the trio by Arnage(when the other two are a special Reactor and an Eclipse Driver no less) and be naked to deprive her from her stuff. She doesn't look very strong but maybe had acces to some powerfull knowledge or is in posesion of some rare skill(it's specially curious how the Huckebein traets her as a threat when they feel invincible facing Top Class mages and Warships, whaterver her speciality is, it must represent some kind of "threat" to them).

Tiresias

2010-08-02, 20:53

Touma should just leave everything to Isis.

Now this would be something :heh:. After all those hints of being someone dangerous, she better have her own moment of ass-kicking, at least...

itanshi1

2010-08-02, 21:11

So, what do you do when you have a whole team in need of befriending?
Healing through melee combat (http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/funny-gif-jacket-of-smite.gif)

Nya~n

2010-08-02, 21:14

Here's an idea, what if Nanoha and Co. actually don't manage to accomplish anything, and it's down to Thoma to do all the ass-kicking? He is the main character, after all.

I approve of this. All that AEC arms race laid to waste as Thoma shows everyone who's boss.

MeisterBabylon

2010-08-02, 22:48

The Eclipse Unleashed? :uhoh:

In before Antimagic Barrier Jacket Rape. :nod:

FRS

2010-08-03, 00:19

If things happen exactly that way, Touma would be reagarded as a cheap Marty Stu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu) character for the rest of his existence -_-
...

Err so how can Toma be considered a self insertion character ? it's his story, i have trouble to see how it could be problematic to have a main char competent and kicking ass.

Nanya01

2010-08-03, 00:26

Err so how can Toma be considered a self insertion character ? it's his story, i have trouble to see how it could be problematic to have a main char competent and kicking ass.

Because Touma's a guy.

PhoenixFlare

2010-08-03, 00:40

Given that "interesting" is a subjective term, I have to question it. To me, interesting is the personality and motivations of the antagonists, not in their power. Would it make it more "interesting" to you if, instead of magical nullification power, that Cypha instead was just a stronger mage, and thus beat down Signum that way? Would it make her more interesting if she was the same power level, but just out thought Signum?

The end result is the same; Signum critically injured. I'm just wondering if you consider the other possible methods to make Huckbein a threat, would somehow make them more interesting to you, since you seem to think that magic nullification isn't it.

To me, just being stronger isn't enough for me to take them as a serious enough threat. No matter how strong a mages they are, then, they can be taken down with sheer numbers. Chessmasters always mess up somehow, or fail to take into account just how strong the heroes are, so that's usually not quite enough for me to consider them a threat (unless they are really playing in the shadows).

Right now, the magic nullification has me seeing them as a pretty damn good threat, and with Signum so badly beat, it does make me worry enough to see if they can be defeated, even with the new gear. Somehow, I expect the new gear isn't as powerful as their old, just more focused into a specific effect, so the fights will still be tough. And if their gears gets broken, they are screwed. Thus, Hayate is taking quite a chance confronting them now, but I understand why; because she's trying to prevent more civilian death.

I just wonder where Caro is, and what her new gear would be like. Technically speaking, Voltaire punching them would a physical attack rather than magical, heh.

Quite on the contrary, I think the end result is different. At least, perspectively speaking on what we think the end result is.

If Signum was defeated by Cyphia who had a similar power level (though using this as a yardstick is not going to be really accurate), then it means that the Huckebeins are a real threat to the main characters without relying on the convenient plot armor of anti-magic Eclipse tech. This means that they are entirely on a different league than our protagonists and the credibility for their prowess is reasonably justified. And this (at least to me) is a good, open-ended plot for different developments in terms of our protagonists.

True, being able to defeat one of the Wolkenritter is itself a plot device, but the sense of connection to the characters will be totally different. Right now, I can't tell if the Huckebeins are dangerous because they are dangerous (i.e. power/magic/experience level difference), or they are dangerous because the virus they carry is the main threat (meaning that once the Eclipse mystery is solved, the Huckebeins are nothing more than extravagant Gadget Drones). The plot is now shoved into the niche of producing an anti-anti-magic weaponry, which to Tsuzuki's credit may be interesting and which I don't particularly mind since the series has consistently introduced upgrades and whatnots, but it does not introduce a new flavor to the series.

I mean, good ol' Starlight Breakers and stuff were and are good, but even the author must've realized that familiarity will eventually breed contempt. I wouldn't mind any of the protagonists actually developing a sense of tactics, strategy, and depth. You don't need to show me a brilliant mind-twisting strategy and counter-strategy a la Code Geass, you just need to make it decent enough that I can actually feel that the protagonists have matured past the age of relying on extreme firepower (you know who I'm talking about :p) to solve every case. Perhaps a wishful thinking, but you can't fault a person for wishing his favorite series to actually progress further, can you? :)

Well, now to wait for more development on Thoma's side ...

Here's an idea, what if Nanoha and Co. actually don't manage to accomplish anything, and it's down to Thoma to do all the ass-kicking? He is the main character, after all.

I approve, since this is what I actually did in my fic, anyway. The main cast are "shafted" considerably, and those lacking screen-times in the past three seasons are given more development and expositions. Nanoha remains the main character, of course, but since she's been overdeveloped, might as well pass the baton to other people. :p

If things happen exactly that way, Touma would be reagarded as a cheap Marty Stu character for the rest of his existence -_-

Sure he's the main character now(just like Subaru in StrikerS ...oh well, maybe a little more than Subaru in StrikerS xDU) but Nanoha's name is still in the title so she needs te get some ass-kicking for herself, it would be very pissing the other way.

I disagree. A title is meant to project a meaning of how a story goes, but it doesn't necessarily make the mentioned name an indispensable character.

Key Board

2010-08-03, 02:05

being a titular character mean that you will steer the plot, directly or otherwise

I've never seen an exception to this rule

You might be an utterly tragic hero, but they'll never treat you like an extra

itanshi1

2010-08-03, 02:25

see exception: Gundam Seed Destiny

Skane

2010-08-03, 03:15

see exception: Gundam Seed Destiny
Are you kidding me? Or did you miss the entire second half of that series? Jesus Wargod Kira Yamato returns to save the day with his best buddy, Yamikaze Arthrun. Nanoha is the titular heroine in this case.

Narf.

fukarming

2010-08-03, 07:12

Are you kidding me? Or did you miss the entire second half of that series? Jesus Wargod Kira Yamato returns to save the day with his best buddy, Yamikaze Arthrun. Nanoha is the titular heroine in this case.

Narf.

The title character in GSD is Shinn...........he is the one who pilots Gundam Destiny.

Nanya01

2010-08-03, 08:29

The title character in GSD is Shinn...........he is the one who pilots Gundam Destiny.

Actually, no one's really sure WHO the main character in Destiny is.

After all, in Dynasty Warriors Gundam, Gundam Seed Destiny had Shin, Athrun and Kira, simply because there was no way to know who the main character was.

DW: Gundam had all three because for all the non-UC series, they had the main character and his biggest rival.

Wing - Heero and Millardo

G-Gundam - Domon and Master Asia

Turn A - Loran and the guy in the Turn X (not going to spell his name out)

Seed Destiny - Shin, Kira and Athrun

No one's sure who the main and who the rival is.

Jimmy C

2010-08-03, 08:33

But you could tell it wasn't Athrun.

Add: I just got to read Vivid chapter 15 in chinese. My thoughts are that the Vivio-Einhart double KO at the end should have been impossible. If they had hit each other at the same time, maybe. But that's not what happened. Vivio downed Einhart first. At that point, either Einhart was at less than 100 life or not. If yes, she would have been counted as "disabled" or "dead" and not have been allowed to attack Vivio. But if she had more than 100 life and thus able to move, then she would've won as the last person standing and Vivio would be in no condition to retaliate further.
The second last page of the chapter also answers a question I had since the mock battle started, where was Kris during the whole time? When Vivio detransforms, Kris pops out of her shirt. Guess that's where it goes during a real battle.

Kaijo

2010-08-03, 10:17

Quite on the contrary, I think the end result is different. At least, perspectively speaking on what we think the end result is.

If Signum was defeated by Cyphia who had a similar power level (though using this as a yardstick is not going to be really accurate), then it means that the Huckebeins are a real threat to the main characters without relying on the convenient plot armor of anti-magic Eclipse tech. This means that they are entirely on a different league than our protagonists and the credibility for their prowess is reasonably justified. And this (at least to me) is a good, open-ended plot for different developments in terms of our protagonists.

You have to be careful here, because that is what leads to power creep and DBZ; that's something not a lot of people here want to see. Because then the only option for the heroes to beat them, is to train to be stronger. The next enemies will have to be stronger still, and the heroes train again, and well.... That's too cliche for what a lot of people want to see in this series.

True, being able to defeat one of the Wolkenritter is itself a plot device, but the sense of connection to the characters will be totally different. Right now, I can't tell if the Huckebeins are dangerous because they are dangerous (i.e. power/magic/experience level difference), or they are dangerous because the virus they carry is the main threat (meaning that once the Eclipse mystery is solved, the Huckebeins are nothing more than extravagant Gadget Drones).

I disagree. Cypha is still damn dangerous, because she was faster than Signum; she got hits on her. Even if you take away the eclipse effect, they are still fairly powerful. If the Eclipse was all they had, then we'd have no suspense because the new weapons would take them out easily; I have a feeling that's not what we are going to see.

So, essentially they are strong *and* have the eclipse effect; which nulls part of your argument. ;p

niche of producing an anti-anti-magic weaponry,

I wouldn't call this a niche; all the new gear does is produce standard physical attacks; they are simply powered by the user's mana and stamina. So basically we have our two classes of weaponry that cover all cases: magic and non-magic. Magic still seems to be better, but non-magic does have it's uses. It's like guns and missiles are pretty good and cover most everything, but if you're going under water, you'll probably want harpoons and torpedos.

Arkeus

2010-08-03, 10:21

But you could tell it wasn't Athrun.

Add: I just got to read Vivid chapter 15 in chinese. My thoughts are that the Vivio-Einhart double KO at the end should have been impossible. If they had hit each other at the same time, maybe. But that's not what happened. Vivio downed Einhart first. At that point, either Einhart was at less than 100 life or not. If yes, she would have been counted as "disabled" or "dead" and not have been allowed to attack Vivio. But if she had more than 100 life and thus able to move, then she would've won as the last person standing and Vivio would be in no condition to retaliate further.

Unless the life 'bar' goes down progressively, and not all the damage is taken into account at once.

Moczo

2010-08-03, 10:30

Unless the life 'bar' goes down progressively, and not all the damage is taken into account at once.

So the mock battle is being fought under Earthbound rules?

I like it.

aers

2010-08-03, 10:51

Add: I just got to read Vivid chapter 15 in chinese. My thoughts are that the Vivio-Einhart double KO at the end should have been impossible. If they had hit each other at the same time, maybe. But that's not what happened. Vivio downed Einhart first. At that point, either Einhart was at less than 100 life or not. If yes, she would have been counted as "disabled" or "dead" and not have been allowed to attack Vivio. But if she had more than 100 life and thus able to move, then she would've won as the last person standing and Vivio would be in no condition to retaliate further.
The second last page of the chapter also answers a question I had since the mock battle started, where was Kris during the whole time? When Vivio detransforms, Kris pops out of her shirt. Guess that's where it goes during a real battle.

Does it mention how Vivio and Einhart ended up being missed by the..explosions?

Jimmy C

2010-08-03, 11:15

Einhart was in a barrier that Caro set up for her in the last chapter. Subaru shielded Vivio at the cost of being disabled by Tia's SLB.

Akiyoshi

2010-08-03, 11:43

Quite on the contrary, I think the end result is differentI disagree. A title is meant to project a meaning of how a story goes, but it doesn't necessarily make the mentioned name an indispensable character.

Then the series can be still called Nanoha even if Nanoha herself don't appear in it xD? Ok, i don't have anything against the idea of Touma be a hero, but leving "all the asskicking" to him seems ridiculous. Sure, in past seasons we've seen Nanoha blasting strong opponents but also watch other characters being awesome in their own right i would totally despise this series if the plot goes "oh, we're so defensless against them, Touma save us!"(part of what i hate Kamijou Touma from ToAru with such a passion xDU).Besies, Nanoha's blasts almost never did something significant against a Big Bad xDU, in S1 she beat Fate but didn't even face Precia(Chrno do the job), in A's not only she get trashed by Vita at first but have the chance to face Rainforce, and besides how awesome the Excelion mode is, it did nothing to her(save made her angry) with all the main cast and the Arc-en-Ciel saving the day, in StrikerS she got to fight Vivio in Sankt Kaiser mode but it's not an easy battle(Vivio pretty much punched "The White Devil" across the room like a ragdoll a couple of times) and even if she won it's Fate the one who got Scaglietti. So in resume my guess is that Touma will, in fact, save the day by confronting and destroy the big bad(cross my finger for him to do an heroic sacrifice and destroy the core power source of all dividers along with the Big Bad and finally restore Status Q...errr... peace to the galaxy xD!) but left Nanoha and the Aces/Forwards time to shine by beating the Huckebein xD(Signum deserves being able to re-establish her badassery with some "friendship" slices xD).

I disagree. Cypha is still damn dangerous, because she was faster than Signum; she got hits on her. Even if you take away the eclipse effect, they are still fairly powerful. If the Eclipse was all they had, then we'd have no suspense because the new weapons would take them out easily; I have a feeling that's not what we are going to see.

So, essentially they are strong *and* have the eclipse effect; which nulls part of your argument. ;p

That's came out of nowhere, the only hits Cypha got on Signum are doned AFTER Laevatein's destruction and her "reacting". Signum got hit because she gets left without a weapon in front of her adversary(that and the fact that even if Signum is made of iron, the reactor allows Cypha to be made of adamantium). Before that, she hardly match with Signum and doesen't manage to land a signle hit on her until she unleashes her broken powers. Still i'll give to her the benefits of the doubt because she claims to be on par with Signum in swordsmanship skill and at least prove to be dangerous enough to make Signum show galore of Laevatein's Schlagenform and go Unison with Agito. Their fight almost consist of the two curbstompping each other with upgrades(first Signum with unison, then Cypha with reacting), so if Tsuzuki take the chance, once Signum gets her upgrade maybe the two will be finally matched on power(Signum unison's advantage is now useless and if her upgrades works well, Cypha's reacting menace will also be solved) and then we finally get to see the awesome swordfight that FORCE 005-007 should be.

aers

2010-08-03, 11:49

Einhart was in a barrier that Caro set up for her in the last chapter. Subaru shielded Vivio at the cost of being disabled by Tia's SLB.

Makes sense, thanks.

itanshi1

2010-08-03, 12:46

The title character in GSD is Shinn...........he is the one who pilots Gundam Destiny.

yeah, this is applicable for discussion because the old main character became prominent over the new main character (nanoha over tohma here)

Nina.Wolken

2010-08-03, 13:40

About the last chapter of the Movie manga...Can't remember last time I did that... (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=66994)

Nanya01

2010-08-03, 13:44

About the last chapter of the Movie manga...Can't remember last time I did that... (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=66994)

what happened to sequence 1-6?

Nina.Wolken

2010-08-03, 13:48

what happened to sequence 1-6?

I didn't pay attention to the last releases but I think raws at least should be out by now. Seems like someone found it on Share or something some days ago.

Takamura Mamoru

2010-08-03, 13:48

Angry Nanoha in flashback, both Nanoha and Fate getting their armor ripped to shreds.. Pretty cool :D

Demi.

2010-08-03, 16:06

About the last chapter of the Movie manga...Can't remember last time I did that... (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=66994)

Is that Phalanx Shift and SLB at the same time?

00-Raiser

2010-08-03, 19:19

Hm, page 19 of the movie 1st chapter... I wonder what Nanoha's saying in that last bubble cuz I find it odd that the next panel would have a lone shot of Yuuno from behind.

itanshi1

2010-08-03, 20:02

Yay ferret butt! We surely don't have enough of that.

00-Raiser

2010-08-03, 20:23

No butt, the shot is from the waist up :heh:

Bananoha

2010-08-03, 22:18

herp derp, dunno if anyone mentioned but

11, *55,548 *55,548 Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha ViVid vol.2

ololol, wonder how Force will do. Gotta wait next month....Hm, page 19 of the movie 1st chapter... I wonder what Nanoha's saying in that last bubble cuz I find it odd that the next panel would have a lone shot of Yuuno from behind.iz liek "I was taught how to fly by my teachers and" PEWPEW ASSAULT MAGICZZZZZZZZZ.

Psst, Doraneko-san~ I-Is it okay if I do Force Dimension o-or....[23:18:15] <+Basaka> if he wants to he can
[23:18:20] <+Basaka> dont overwork me ;_;

Doraneko

2010-08-03, 22:50

Psst, Doraneko-san~ I-Is it okay if I do Force Dimension o-or....[23:18:15] <+Basaka> if he wants to he can
[23:18:20] <+Basaka> dont overwork me ;_;

Hehe just as I've said before I don't have exclusive rights in translation :heh:. Please feel free to overwork Basaka-san. :D

Not sure if you need this, but I did some of the cleanup few days ago. The file format is Fireworks PNG, but other image software can also open it (with the layers and text boxes squashed though)

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2688/forcedimension002cn.th.png (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/forcedimension002cn.png/)

Nina.Wolken

2010-08-03, 22:50

[SIZE="1"]Psst, Doraneko-san~ I-Is it okay if I do Force Dimension o-or...

Do it! Isis is really growing on me, she really is an odd ball and her imagination is quite unique (*≧艸≦).

Also for those interested in the last chapter of Force and Force Dimension (9 pages this time):Same as yesterday (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=66994)

PhoenixFlare

2010-08-03, 23:20

You have to be careful here, because that is what leads to power creep and DBZ; that's something not a lot of people here want to see. Because then the only option for the heroes to beat them, is to train to be stronger. The next enemies will have to be stronger still, and the heroes train again, and well.... That's too cliche for what a lot of people want to see in this series.

You are saying it like having a shiny, new weapon is not a form of power creep and cliche. Nanoha did have to train in order to use Strike Cannon (Force Volume 2, Chapter 7, page 18), so I don't see the point.

There will be some form of power creep whenever a new opponent is introduced. That's how most -- if not all -- series that involve protagonists/antagonists fighting each other progress. What I did imply does involve power creep, yes, but it doesn't have to be done in the DBZesque fashion. I don't even want to see Nanoha jumping from S-level to SSS-level myself -- it makes for a bland story.

But, there will come a time when characters hit their ceilings, and one of the ways to improve further is to diversify. The power level stays the same, but their approach to things may become different. That's what I meant by development.

I disagree. Cypha is still damn dangerous, because she was faster than Signum; she got hits on her. Even if you take away the eclipse effect, they are still fairly powerful. If the Eclipse was all they had, then we'd have no suspense because the new weapons would take them out easily; I have a feeling that's not what we are going to see.

So, essentially they are strong *and* have the eclipse effect; which nulls part of your argument. ;p

How do you tell, though? Cyphia was beaten Signum who went into Unison Mode with Agito, losing an arm in the process. If she did not have Eclipse handy to give her high-speed regeneration and the subsequent physique-changing properties able to break apart magic and steel (I wasn't quite sure to consider Laevateinn as a magical weapon given physical form or just a physical device in entirety :heh:), then I would think that Cyphia would've been defeated unless she, like what I mentioned, was a quick thinker/strategist/something.

I wouldn't call this a niche; all the new gear does is produce standard physical attacks; they are simply powered by the user's mana and stamina. So basically we have our two classes of weaponry that cover all cases: magic and non-magic. Magic still seems to be better, but non-magic does have it's uses. It's like guns and missiles are pretty good and cover most everything, but if you're going under water, you'll probably want harpoons and torpedos.

Which, I don't know, is quite contrary to what the author has established extensively, no? I will be beating a dead horse going on this line, so I'll not comment on the big, gaping loophole introduced in Force.

It probably wasn't a good word to use 'niche', I suppose. I merely meant to say that the plot development now is pigeonholed to continuously unveil new weaponry for our protagonists to use, which to me happens to be not particularly inspiring (except for the cool weapon designs).

Admittedly, I will be interested to see how the weapons fare against the Huckebeins, but that's about it. And perhaps it was my fault to think there will be more development for our protagonists in Force, which didn't really help much.

Then the series can be still called Nanoha even if Nanoha herself don't appear in it xD? Ok, i don't have anything against the idea of Touma be a hero, but leving "all the asskicking" to him seems ridiculous. Sure, in past seasons we've seen Nanoha blasting strong opponents but also watch other characters being awesome in their own right i would totally despise this series if the plot goes "oh, we're so defensless against them, Touma save us!"(part of what i hate Kamijou Touma from ToAru with such a passion xDU).Besies, Nanoha's blasts almost never did something significant against a Big Bad xDU, in S1 she beat Fate but didn't even face Precia(Chrno do the job), in A's not only she get trashed by Vita at first but have the chance to face Rainforce, and besides how awesome the Excelion mode is, it did nothing to her(save made her angry) with all the main cast and the Arc-en-Ciel saving the day, in StrikerS she got to fight Vivio in Sankt Kaiser mode but it's not an easy battle(Vivio pretty much punched "The White Devil" across the room like a ragdoll a couple of times) and even if she won it's Fate the one who got Scaglietti. So in resume my guess is that Touma will, in fact, save the day by confronting and destroy the big bad(cross my finger for him to do an heroic sacrifice and destroy the core power source of all dividers along with the Big Bad and finally restore Status Q...errr... peace to the galaxy xD!) but left Nanoha and the Aces/Forwards time to shine by beating the Huckebein xD(Signum deserves being able to re-establish her badassery with some "friendship" slices xD).

You misunderstood what I said. It doesn't happen in canon Nanoha (since, well, we have Nanoha from very early on and she's real stubborn in dying), but it is certainly used in some stories.

There is a technique of plot/storywriting known as false protagonists, where the story is not driven by the titular/principal character, but rather by the deuteragonist or the tritagonist, sometimes even by the antagonist. The distinction here is that the (real) protagonist is not essential in driving the story forward up until a very late stage.

An example of this is A Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin, where a lot of "protagonists" (those deeply involved in the plot and even driving the story far forward) are later ... well, let's just say they were removed from the plot by the most unpalatable manner possible. This relegates these "protagonists" to a secondary position, while the focal character remains obscure.

In the novel The Lazy Bones (and a lovely book as well) by Alice Sebold, the protagonist is a 14-year-old girl, but she's dead and the story progresses with her narrating from heaven. While she drives the plot before in flashbacks leading to her death, the eventual focus and resolution of the story is done by her family members.

I would think that the first episode of Kuro Shitsuji II is also an example of false protagonist in Alois Trancy and his butler. I vividly remember a lot of critical comments saying that the series is not the same without Sebastian Michaelis and Ciel Phantomhive.