View Full Version : Nanoha Manga Discussion
And time for the "what car they're named after" post, just for heads up:
Nissan Avenir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Avenir) - Lol Nissans.
Strosek, a German aftermarket tuning company (http://www.strosek.de/) - Talk about modifying cars in the 80s and 90s, and compare that to now.
Most likely Eagle, the brand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_automobile) - Lol Chrysler.
@MeisterBabylon - You forgot about the Huckie's dividing by zero effects.
Time for a little if you know what I mean joke: "Touma would like his device tuned by Lili if you know what I mean.
Key Board
2009-04-30, 19:28
observations
Lily is the control program of the other Tome
Since she is a unison device she can unison with Touma
When this happens he looks like a male Fate with a marking on his cheek
DezoPenguin
2009-04-30, 19:31
But I don't approve of their attitude. Did you see their comments about the release? Totally insulting towards scanlators. Check the comments left about it on their blog entry too. It's very disappointing that people like this are the only ones working on this.
Wait...the scanlators are themselves sitting there making snarky and offensive comments about scanlators? Is this...um...*facepalm*
Firstly- is the person second to the left supposed to be Amy, or Nanoha?
Secondly, while Arisa and Suzuka showing up in Midchilda wouldn't add much to the plot aside from cheering section and/or potential damsels in distress in need of saving, I always thought it was hokey that _they_ of all (non)magical people would end up caught up in a barrier, in city full of thousands of people on christmas eve? :confused:
That's supposed to be Amy :heh:
And why Arisa and Suzuka got there in the first place was never really explained AFAIK, so at this point anything's game :heh:
I was under the impression Arisa and Suzuka's appearance within the barrier served two purposes:
1. To give Nanoha an excuse to tell her friends about her "other life," 'cause keeping secrets from your best friends is bad and all.
2. A shout-out to their origins in Triangle Heart 3. 'Cause, after all, we're never told that Suzuka isn't a vampire, and Arisa is with Shiro in the "not dead in this continuity" gang...
9taileddemon
2009-04-30, 19:50
Finally looked at all of the scans. Hayate looks really scary. I am surprised. But yay everyone is coming together again.
So, that last panel there in the Nanoha Force scans..
'We'll be together, forever and ever.' displayed along with a sorrowful-looking Subaru. Anyone else want to start speculating on how grossly this counts as foreshadowing? Have yet to ever see a series that starts with this sort of thing that didn't have a main character die bloodily in his or her lover's arms before. Subaru to die in Teana's arms? Or Teana in Subaru's? Or are they just teasing us with such an overused 'something is going to happen' line?Otherwise, hai. New kid on the block, long time Nanoha fanatic. Nanoha Force may yet make me more social to speculate with others.
And yes, Hayate looks like she actually got older. And hardened. Quite something.
itanshi1
2009-04-30, 20:55
Ginga nuuuuu x_x
MeisterBabylon
2009-04-30, 20:59
On a funny note: my first WoW mob killed today dropped The Gunblade (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31204) :D Oh god how I laughed :heh:
I take this as a sign from heavens that this manga will be good :DAaaah that. It dropped for me way back when I was still a little hunter foraging through the Outlands. I later found Kael's white chocobo to complete the reference. :D
Looked nothing like an actual Gunblade though.
So, that last panel there in the Nanoha Force scans..
'We'll be together, forever and ever.' displayed along with a sorrowful-looking Subaru. Anyone else want to start speculating on how grossly this counts as foreshadowing? Have yet to ever see a series that starts with this sort of thing that didn't have a main character die bloodily in his or her lover's arms before. Subaru to die in Teana's arms? Or Teana in Subaru's? Or are they just teasing us with such an overused 'something is going to happen' line?Otherwise, hai. New kid on the block, long time Nanoha fanatic. Nanoha Force may yet make me more social to speculate with others.Have we forgotten Ix so quickly...? Might just be remeberance.
TheShinySword
2009-04-30, 21:06
So, that last panel there in the Nanoha Force scans..
'We'll be together, forever and ever.' displayed along with a sorrowful-looking Subaru. Anyone else want to start speculating on how grossly this counts as foreshadowing? Have yet to ever see a series that starts with this sort of thing that didn't have a main character die bloodily in his or her lover's arms before. Subaru to die in Teana's arms? Or Teana in Subaru's? Or are they just teasing us with such an overused 'something is going to happen' line?Otherwise, hai. New kid on the block, long time Nanoha fanatic. Nanoha Force may yet make me more social to speculate with others.
And yes, Hayate looks like she actually got older. And hardened. Quite something.
I don't know about that particular scenerio but it's true that that particular line seems to have the same damning nature as a character in a coming of age movie saying "We thought those days would last forever" :heh:
I don't know about that particular scenerio but it's true that that particular line seems to have the same damning nature as a character in a coming of age movie saying "We thought those days would last forever" :heh:Yes, exactly my thoughts. XD
And no, no, I haven't forgotten Ix, but... at the same time Subaru isn't one to mop for years over something when she ends with a resolution of only remembering the happy times. So clearly this mopping must have a new reason, and with that line there it makes me fear the worst.
9taileddemon
2009-04-30, 22:49
"We thought those days would last forever" :heh:
Okay. That seems really familiar from something but no matter how much I wrack my brains I can not figure it out. Was that from something specific or did you just mean that in general and I am losing it?
Outlaender
2009-05-01, 01:22
Hmm, I seem to remeber rampant speculation about Nanoha's death being foreshadowed because she happened to look melancholy in the ending to StrikerS. And, _nothing_ happened.:p
No need to get worked up yet, we've only got chapter 00. Give it some time for the doom and gloom to actually be worked up too. :D
Nina.Wolken
2009-05-01, 03:08
'We'll be together, forever and ever.' displayed along with a sorrowful-looking Subaru. Anyone else want to start speculating on how grossly this counts as foreshadowing? Have yet to ever see a series that starts with this sort of thing that didn't have a main character die bloodily in his or her lover's arms before. Subaru to die in Teana's arms? Or Teana in Subaru's? Or are they just teasing us with such an overused 'something is going to happen' line?
That sounds like a vow to me. Something one of the character (Touma I presume) would say receiving the Ring of Engagement presumably.
But if Tsuzuki actually planed to kill someone, he would better do it in the anime. And not just by mean of flash-back. He will have to bring it to screen fully if he doesn't want to greatly disappoint number of fans. Me at least >_>.
And yes, Hayate looks like she actually got older. And hardened. Quite something.
Isn't she gorgeous like that? ♥
^ It would be the greatest stunt to draw attention to the manga though. Also, it would increase the chances of it getting animated dramatically.
Nina.Wolken
2009-05-01, 04:04
^ It would be the greatest stunt to draw attention to the manga though. Also, it would increase the chances of it getting animated dramatically.
But until now the anime was never based on the manga. I mean, the manga usually feel the gap between two seasons or gives complementary informations, nothing more.
If a death was to occure in this manga, I don't think that would ever be animated. And if it was, the surprise/dramatic effect would already be ruined :eyebrow:.
And if it was, the surprise/dramatic effect would already be ruined :eyebrow.:
You should try reading, and then watching One Piece. Yes, the surprise would be ruined, but the dramatic effect can still smack you in the face when done in full-color animation, voiced and with great music.
Though you have a point that so far Nanoha seems more intent on building on then animating what exists.
TheShinySword
2009-05-01, 06:22
Okay. That seems really familiar from something but no matter how much I wrack my brains I can not figure it out. Was that from something specific or did you just mean that in general and I am losing it?
It's used in a ton of stuff in one form or another.
Off the top of my head I'm almost one hundred percent sure The Girl who Leapt Through Time has it and I'm pretty sure The Place Promised in Our Early Days has something like it but I'm know it's elsewhere too.
And with the very serious tone Force seems to be taking I wouldn't be surprised if we got an actual body count. Besides people keep complaining about the number of characters so...
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-01, 06:34
Looks like Alto getting offed causing Vice to go on an epic killing spree is going to come true! 8D
I will risk a limb and say I would prefer someone from the pre-strikerS cast to be a part off that body count. Sure, they could take the easy route and kill of one or two of the numbers, but let's be honest, while we love them here on Animesuki, there are a lot of fans who can't even remember their names, much less have any emotional connection with them. Killing them of would be... cheap, and not really throw in a sense of danger.
I should note that, as much as I like her, I am also one of the few who thinks that Vita should have died on the Cradle. She was badly injured, struggling to stand and made that final blow against the reactor. It was the perfect scene give Vita a warrior's death, and would have increased the drama of the scene a thousand-fold.
chaosprophet
2009-05-01, 06:39
But until now the anime was never based on the manga. I mean, the manga usually feel the gap between two seasons or gives complementary informations, nothing more.
If a death was to occure in this manga, I don't think that would ever be animated. And if it was, the surprise/dramatic effect would already be ruined :eyebrow:.
Well we will see in the next Force chapters... If they jump around there is a good chance of they make an Anime together with it and have it like the previous two manga did. But if they don't jump around I think there is a good chance of an anime adaptation of it (well they could make an anime after the events on it, but then they would to expend some time in flashbacks for the anime only people..).
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-01, 06:46
Only reason why a pre-StrikerS toon might not get offed is that they have been absent for an entire season, offing them looks cheap to me.
Or they should be just practice equality and epically off as many as possible in the most varied of possibilities. I can see Lutecia, Caro, Erio, Alto, Vice, and Suzuka's deaths to be rather high on the list. Numbers can die rather easily, depending on how the plot progresses. Arisa might need a bit of work, but they could go Neena if they want. The Takamachi family needs a suicide bomb to go off in their cafe; its a perfect target for the radicals that Nanoha has devastated with her big guns. Makes for a nice emo arc when she is considering the costs of her station weighed against Vivio, the last surviving member in her family.
Genya pretty much dies in every timeline I've come up with. Ginga is iffy, but possible. Subaru might go, or might not... But it's gonna need work.
The capital of the Belka SAR should get nuked for real with a nova torpedo as the radicals dig up bigger and better weapons. Quick sudden and absolutely devastating deaths for half of the cast right there. Even allows for a lone knight to crawl out of the downed Storm Raider, stumble around a bit for the viewers to see what's left of New Antioch, then succumb to the radiation. :nod:
Lucino x Griffith when the Asura II blows up would be AWESOME. And let's not forget Hayate GARlock!
Oh let's finish off with Nanoha disappearing on her final mission, and Vivio is left to inherit the future. Whether her sanity is left intact is not the point. Yuuno leaving flowers on Nanoha's grave would be a fitting end to the series. :D
My only complaint is that I'd like to kill Fate off while giving birth, and there's no way I'm ever going to get that in mainstream canon. In it's place, I'd have her taking out the one who caused her mom to undertake the Yggdra experiment in the first place with a weapon using that system, then die as it overloads. Bit more epic, less emo, but more plausible.
Bottomline: no mecha ref should be complete without a nod to Tomino! And yes, I'm being perfectly serious here.
Nina.Wolken
2009-05-01, 07:22
(well they could make an anime after the events on it, but then they would to expend some time in flashbacks for the anime only people..).
7Arc don't care about those fellow, in StrikerS the message was already clear : if you want to know who are those new chara', just buy the lastest Megami.
Same if you want to have the whole story (like ep 14.5 or the like). Finally, if you want to give a bit of relief to everything, go to the Sound Stages. I don't even mention the various informations you can get in the magazines, or the cards that come with the DVD...
Really, they don't have to bother with flash-back :p.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/Nanoha/manga/Galacticempress.png
Nina.Wolken
2009-05-01, 07:56
^:bow::bow::bow: All Hail Hayate! All Hail Hayate :bow::bow::bow:
spawnofthejudge
2009-05-01, 07:57
I will risk a limb and say I would prefer someone from the pre-strikerS cast to be a part off that body count. Sure, they could take the easy route and kill of one or two of the numbers, but let's be honest, while we love them here on Animesuki, there are a lot of fans who can't even remember their names, much less have any emotional connection with them. Killing them of would be... cheap, and not really throw in a sense of danger.
I should note that, as much as I like her, I am also one of the few who thinks that Vita should have died on the Cradle. She was badly injured, struggling to stand and made that final blow against the reactor. It was the perfect scene give Vita a warrior's death, and would have increased the drama of the scene a thousand-fold.But Hayate's catch made me cry!
...Not that you don't have a very sound point. Body count of established characters definitely will ramp up the seriousness of the danger/tension.
But Hayate's catch made me cry!
Now imagine Hayate catching a near-dead Vita, blowing out her final breath in Hayate's arms. The tears would become a waterfall of drama!
But Hayate's catch made me cry!
...Not that you don't have a very sound point. Body count of established characters definitely will ramp up the seriousness of the danger/tension.
As much as this could set things in motion (and FINALLY tells everyone that Tsuzuki is serious about making this serious), reactions from the Japanese (where everything matters) themselves are the ones that will seriously determine the end of things. Something that is considered an anti-popularity move (like killing Fate, for example) will cause too much of a storm, don't we think so?
spawnofthejudge
2009-05-01, 08:31
Now imagine Hayate catching a near-dead Vita, blowing out her final breath in Hayate's arms. The tears would become a waterfall of drama!:upset:
As much as this could set things in motion (and FINALLY tells everyone that Tsuzuki is serious about making this serious), reactions from the Japanese (where everything matters) themselves are the ones that will seriously determine the end of things. Something that is considered an anti-popularity move (like killing Fate, for example) will cause too much of a storm, don't we think so?Thusly they'd only kill someone top tier over there (of which I believe Fate and Vita are both members) during the grand finale of the whole series... though even then, the person in that tier most likely to die ever is Nanoha, but still only at the very end.
just finish read the Nanoha Force, just that few page -__-', abit too little, lol no wonder, the one I read is the chapter 00....
Abit interesting on the new character. Erm, did I see a tall(growth up) version of reinforce zwei, if she is maintain this form in whole Nanoha Force then will nice ^^. And finally, saw Hayate, but look quite serious lol, not bad. So this chapter is like saw nothing ...
Anyway looking forward to next chapter.
I read chapter 00 and...it was TOO short.:T_T: Other than that, it was okay. When will chapter 1 come out? And...what IS going on? I've been gone a week and new characters appear? I smell faliure...
When will ViviD come out?
I've been gone a week and new characters appear? I smell faliure...
When will ViviD come out?
Vivid will also have new characters.
May 31st.
spawnofthejudge
2009-05-01, 10:25
I've been gone a week and new characters appear? I smell faliure...It's Nanoha. Did you expect to not have new characters? Where have you been?
I don't understand that line of thought at all.
"Oh noes, new characters! It's going to fail!"
Really, so you think A's was fail? By my latest count it introduced no less then 10 new characters.
I will risk a limb and say I would prefer someone from the pre-strikerS cast to be a part off that body count. Sure, they could take the easy route and kill of one or two of the numbers, but let's be honest, while we love them here on Animesuki, there are a lot of fans who can't even remember their names, much less have any emotional connection with them. Killing them of would be... cheap, and not really throw in a sense of danger.
I should note that, as much as I like her, I am also one of the few who thinks that Vita should have died on the Cradle. She was badly injured, struggling to stand and made that final blow against the reactor. It was the perfect scene give Vita a warrior's death, and would have increased the drama of the scene a thousand-fold.
Well Sette oughta have croaked as much as I loved her, but she doesn't have a fandom at all.
I don't understand that line of thought at all.
"Oh noes, new characters! It's going to fail!"
Really, so you think A's was fail? By my latest count it introduced no less then 10 new characters.Not only A's, but StrikerS upped the character count quite nicely, too! And it wasn't -that- bad. Sure it was a change from the tone of the first two seasons, going from everyday life & magical girl to military life & magical girl. But you say potAto and I say potato. ( Doesn't work as well without a voice to say it D: )
Characters being offed... I really hope none of them /do/ get offed, but a lot of them are actually pretty well designed for that.
Subaru's stupid and reckless. Just look at how often she ends up with parts of her arms and legs missing. If she weren't a sentoukijin she'd be deader than dead by now. Chances are she'll take a few bullets too many for Teana one of these days. (Woe be me, for I do ship those two together, even in a platonic way.) Plus, StrikerS being 'less popular' they're more likely to give this some thought.
The Wolkenritter... kinda lost their flair since A's. I think an arc wherein we get to hear their backstory as they die to protect Hayate (one by one, more than likely) wouldn't be too bad, but that would probably upset the hammerloli fans a LOT. So not happening.
I'd rather not see any of the three aces get killed. (Although your idea of Fate dying at childbirth is interesting, if a bit ironic-- dare I ask who you ship her with?)
Vice and Alto are wildcards.
Erio and Caro will probably not die. Although seemingly less important as characters, they're also still kids compared to the main cast. And kids don't die!
WELL! This is just speculation anyway. There is a very big chance that we're all wrong and that they will conserve the spirit of the Nanohaverse and not kill off anyone at all. And although I'd like that, I just can't help but go FORESHADOOOOW when you start a series with 'together forever and ever'. D:
Not only A's, but StrikerS upped the character count quite nicely, too! And it wasn't -that- bad.
I agree, but since many consider StrikerS fail while heaping praises on A's, I'm using A's to compare. Just goes to show that it's not the introduction of new characters that matters, it's how it's executed.
I'd rather not see any of the three aces get killed. (Although your idea of Fate dying at childbirth is interesting, if a bit ironic-- dare I ask who you ship her with?)
FateGinga on my part.
One of the Aces die would have maximum emotional impact, though the childbirth thing Babylon cooked up is something I'll pass on. <_<
9taileddemon
2009-05-01, 13:33
Why does everyone want characters to die? I actually like Nanoha BECAUSE they don't kill characters off all the time. (Stupid TTGL). The only characters I have really wanted to see killed was Due and Precia. And they did get killed! YAY! And Reinforce's death was okay because it was expected and it really was a release for her.
So yeah I would prefer as few casualties as possible. I don't mind if the characters get their butts handed to them and are hurt really badly like Vita was because that is awesome. But I don't want them to actually die.
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 13:41
Why does everyone want characters to die? I actually like Nanoha BECAUSE they don't kill characters off all the time. (Stupid TTGL). The only characters I have really wanted to see killed was Due and Precia. And they did get killed! YAY! And Reinforce's death was okay because it was expected and it really was a release for her.
So yeah I would prefer as few casualties as possible. I don't mind if the characters get their butts handed to them and are hurt really badly like Vita was because that is awesome. But I don't want them to actually die.
As a wise man once said, "Amen, hallelujah, peanut butter." If the only way you can increase dramatic tension in a story is to start killing off the characters--which, for many people, are the ENTIRE REASON THEY WATCH THE SERIES--then you seriously need to rethink your career as a storyteller. I don't mind if some of the characters fade into the background (at least they're still around and able to be used in fanfics), but killing almost any of the major characters at this point would seriously cripple my enjoyment of this series.
Why does everyone want characters to die?
I'm a drama glutton. :p I like scenes that make me cry, and character deaths rank very high among the 'makes me cry' list. If done well, of course.
Another reason is to bring back a sense of mortality. Something that may actually cause us to be afraid when characters are in a pinch. Right now there's little feeling of tension. Magic damage doesn't kill and our heroines are invincible. Having a character die, especially one of the better known ones, would make us worry for the safety of our heroines.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
Legend of Galatic Heroes would not be the same if Reinhart and Yang did not die, likewise for Cow Boy Bebop and Spike, the same goes for Lord of the Rings and Boromir.
NorthernFallout
2009-05-01, 13:49
I'm a drama glutton. :p I like scenes that make me cry, and character deaths rank very high among the 'makes me cry' list. If done well, of course.
Another reason is to bring back a sense of mortality. Something that may actually cause us to be afraid when characters are in a pinch. Right now there's little feeling of tension. Magic damage doesn't kill and our heroines are invisible. Having a character die, especially one of the better known ones, would make us worry for the safety of our heroines.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
I second that...so it isn't strange my fics are also dark and I prefer anime that works on that.
itanshi1
2009-05-01, 13:53
Third that, hard to appreciate life with no threat of death. Still, Nanoha shakily set a precedent of ack of character deaths, so I wonder about the logical step here and who it is. I made my prediction, afterall. I worry now x_x.
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 13:54
Legend of Galatic Heroes would not be the same if Reinhart and Yang did not die, likewise for Cow Boy Bebop and Spike, the same goes for Lord of the Rings and Boromir.
True... but I never saw Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Spike's death was one of the major reasons I never bothered to finish CB, and I didn't give a flying frack about any of the LoTR characters the way I do with pretty much the entire cast of Nanoha.
It's times like these where I start to wonder if I'm the only one here who doesn't get off on watching my favorite characters die. Character deaths are depressing, dammit! Keep them out of the shows I watch or I'll stop watching 'em!
Character's death contribute to the development of the core cast. The sadness of the core cast only make them stronger (since Nanoha is much a disguised one) and give them a reason to give the final boss the facebeating he deserves. It's not about getting off their deaths, it is about treasuring themselves, their deeds and their legacy.
One word:
SHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jj3gNff64U)
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 14:09
But unless Death Is Cheap in said series (and it doesn't seem to be in Nanoha) it also signals the forced retirement of the character who bites it. In that respect, it's even worse than being Put On a Bus; Yuuno and Chrono can go off an have adventures on their own or come back and help the characters if needed, but unless you happen to have a set of Dragonballs on hand, a dead character isn't ever coming back, and worse still, can't appear in any fanfics or fan material based on that story after that point unless the story in question is an AU.
That's what stings the most, the fact that that character won't be around for the rest of the series. This isn't so bad if you don't particularly care a great deal about the character, (Kittan and the rest of the Dai-Gurren brigade aside from Kamina come to mind), but I happen to care a great deal about pretty much every major character in Nanoha aside from Vita and the Numbers (Cinque and Dieci notwithstanding), so killing off anyone--especially the Aces or the Forwards--would really sting on this end of the monitor.
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-01, 14:14
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/Nanoha/manga/Galacticempress.pngYou had to use that font (and that title), didn't you? :p
Once again, I quote a MAHQ.net forumer:
"Tomino's definition of character development is by killing everyone around him in every possible way."
And I so damn agree. It's time our characters got a mortality check only found in fanon thus far. :D
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 14:19
Not you too, Kha... seriously, am I the only one on these boards who cares more about the characters than about the fracking drama?
And put that thing in spoiler tags, it's too big.
I'm a drama glutton. :p I like scenes that make me cry, and character deaths rank very high among the 'makes me cry' list. If done well, of course.
Another reason is to bring back a sense of mortality. Something that may actually cause us to be afraid when characters are in a pinch. Right now there's little feeling of tension. Magic damage doesn't kill and our heroines are invincible. Having a character die, especially one of the better known ones, would make us worry for the safety of our heroines.
Of course, that's just my opinion.Exactly!
But still, I gotta agree with everyone who's going 'death isn't really a big part of the Nanoha canon' because it really isn't. I mean, who did they kill so far? Offscreen people like Quint and Tiida? Reinforce, but then they kinda brought her back anyway? Oh, I guess they killed Precia and her actual daughter, but then we have no proof they're dead. They killed Due (Number Two), but then no one cared because she only had fifteen minutes of screentime?
A little death here or there can make for a great tearjerker moment, though, and that's the whole point. But it must be used with caution and properly or it'll only anger the fans of that character. :X
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 14:29
A little death here or there can make for a great tearjerker moment, though, and that's the whole point. But it must be used with caution and properly or it'll only anger the fans of that character. :X
*Looks up from sharpening a machete with "7Arcs" printed on the flat of the blade*
Damn straight. Some character deaths are more acceptable than others, but something tells me 7Arcs isn't likely to pour on the Hot Blood in a character's last moments.
itanshi1
2009-05-01, 14:34
I'll have you know my favorite character in noir was killed and i loved it. She was a great character and served the plot in a meaningful way so her death was the icing on the cake. I care about the story a great deal, but character death is only part of it. I will not be angry if my fav character was killed unless it was done poorly.
This is not a fairy tale, this is war. This is aimed at a slightly older audience, but hell most anime even those pointing at younger audiences have character death (shown or mentioned it happened) like that of parents. Kids need this because it happens and they can relate with it. In relating with it, they watch people overcome it and so they too can find a way.
But unless Death Is Cheap in said series (and it doesn't seem to be in Nanoha) it also signals the forced retirement of the character who bites it. In that respect, it's even worse than being Put On a Bus; Yuuno and Chrono can go off an have adventures on their own or come back and help the characters if needed, but unless you happen to have a set of Dragonballs on hand, a dead character isn't ever coming back, and worse still, can't appear in any fanfics or fan material based on that story after that point unless the story in question is an AU.
And that is exactly what death is. Scary. It makes you fear "Oh dear god, I hope [character] doesn't die!" when a fight is turning bad.
Let's face it, whenever our cast is having a fight, does anyone fear that they will die? Vita received a grievous wound, and the reaction? Speculation for a bit, and then the general consensus was "meh, she won't die. This is Nanoha."
Bye bye tension.
Yes, if Nanoha or Vivio would bite the bullet, I would be sad. Stunned. Outraged. Because I am supposed to feel that way when someone dies. Death is Cheap is a trope I loathe, because it ruins that tension and drama that makes an anime feel just that bit more stunning. Watching a battle when you know the character can die makes your heart thump in your chest harder then watching a battle where death doesn't matter.
It's not purely the drama I'm after, it's the tense atmosphere it creates as well.
But that's just my opinion. It's not as if I'll be disappointed if everyone lives to see the end either.
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 14:44
I'll have you know my favorite character in noir was killed and i loved it. She was a great character and served the plot in a meaningful way so her death was the icing on the cake. I care about the story a great deal, but character death is only part of it. I will not be angry if my fav character was killed unless it was done poorly.
Then there are severe differences in the ways we enjoy our favorite shows, itanshi. If my favorite character got killed off in any series I watched, unless his/her death was the most absolutely fracking AWESOME moment in their entire existence like it was with Kamina, no matter how much it contributed to the plot I'd still be howling for blood.
Let's face it, whenever our cast is having a fight, does anyone fear that they will die? Vita received a grievous wound, and the reaction? Speculation for a bit, and then the general consensus was "meh, she won't die. This is Nanoha."
Bye bye tension.
So find other ways to create tension in the series. Death is not the only bad thing that can happen to a character; they could be mentally corrupted and turned against their allies, for instance, or they could, oh I don't know, be horribly crippled and threatened with the possibility of never being able to walk again.
And just for the record, if Vivio gets killed off, I will personally hunt down the executives at 7Arcs and hold them at gunpoint until they retcon her back into the story. Nobody messes with the moeblob while oniichan is still alive and kicking. :p
Page claim in the name of happy endings.
Mentally corrupting is not a permanent ending, in fact Nanoha already uses this one, so the tension would be low. They tried the crippling part with Nanoha. Twice. Both times it had no lasting effects. Do you really think a battle in Force will be more threatening if we are told that 'this may cripple you forever?'
Yeah, right. That's what they told Nanoha.
Like I said, the fact that the characters are gone and not just gone, but gone forever is what makes death so threatening. Bar lame plot-devices, (DBZ, Mai Hime I'm looking at you) it is not reversible. Mind-warping is reversible. Even crippling can be reversed using the 'strength of will' excuse -like Nanoha- or a miracle cure (it's magic!).
And just for the record, if Vivio gets killed off, I will personally hunt down the executives at 7Arcs and hold them at gunpoint until they retcon her back into the story. Nobody messes with the moeblob while oniichan is still alive and kicking. :p
Oi oi, stay away from mai waifu, 'oni-chan'
itanshi1
2009-05-01, 14:57
Yeah, but I'm fine with mai hime. I've seen shows that killed everyone off before. So I agree in some regard with Comar's sentiments, but not with his ideology.
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 15:01
"Mai waifu"? You better clear that with Nanoha and RH first, Kero-chan, before you meet the business end of a Starlight Breaker. You know how fathers are about their little girls...
*Hears Nanoha load a cartridge somewhere*
And that's my cue to skidoo!
Yeah, but I'm fine with mai hime. I've seen shows that killed everyone off before. So I agree in some regard with Comar's sentiments, but not with his ideology.
Well, yeah, Mai Hime did kill off a bit too much even for my taste. Too much death ruins the drama and tension as well.
Still was a lame plot-device though.
Ironically, one of the most beautiful 'death-scenes' in my opinion wasn't even a person. One Piece has shown that you can even cry over a freaking ship if you do it right.
"Mai waifu"? You better clear that with Nanoha and RH first, Kero-chan, before you meet the business end of a Starlight Breaker. You know how fathers are about their little girls...
*Hears Nanoha load a cartridge somewhere*
And that's my cue to skidoo!
Good thing I'm dealing with a mother here then, no? Besides, I cleared that with Nanoha years ago. Way back when I was the only one defending Vivio from a whole lot of flak.
FlameSparkZ
2009-05-01, 15:09
And that is exactly what death is. Scary. It makes you fear "Oh dear god, I hope [character] doesn't die!" when a fight is turning bad.
Let's face it, whenever our cast is having a fight, does anyone fear that they will die? Vita received a grievous wound, and the reaction? Speculation for a bit, and then the general consensus was "meh, she won't die. This is Nanoha."
Bye bye tension.
Yes, if Nanoha or Vivio would bite the bullet, I would be sad. Stunned. Outraged. Because I am supposed to feel that way when someone dies. Death is Cheap is a trope I loathe, because it ruins that tension and drama that makes an anime feel just that bit more stunning. Watching a battle when you know the character can die makes your heart thump in your chest harder then watching a battle where death doesn't matter.
It's not purely the drama I'm after, it's the tense atmosphere it creates as well.
But that's just my opinion. It's not as if I'll be disappointed if everyone lives to see the end either.
Actually, I thought Vita would die...then I saw her in the prologue alike and kicking :heh:
Even if she had died in Hayate's arms, I'd be sad of course...but it would have been a worthy death.
And yeah, rather than having brainwashed allies fight each other, there's no tension like having death breathe down your neck or have someone else's life at stake during a battle.
Just my 2 cents... :rolleyes:
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 15:11
Good thing I'm dealing with a mother here then, no?
She is the more masculine of the Nano/Fate pair, even if "Fate-mama" has been pretty much debunked...
Besides, I cleared that with Nanoha years ago. Way back when I was the only one defending Vivio from a whole lot of flak.
Oh? Do tell.
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-05-01, 15:14
Character death can be pointless. But when done right it can provide a huge turning point in the series or change the way characters think in drastic ways. It's not needed all the time but when done right it can make a series better imo. Plus without the fear of death it makes all those 'life-threatening/final fight' scenarios kind of bland since you know that everyone will live with maybe a few scratched. Hell, sometimes the concept of death is used to add a lot of suspense like Ozma from Macross Frontier. Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann is a good example of meaningful character death. Kamina's death was completely unexpected which added to the shock factor but it changed the course of the series that many thought it would take. It also opened the door for a huge change in Simon to become a better, stronger person. And the deaths towards the end were not in vain. It also showed how, regardless how goofy and lazy they can be, those characters were strong at heart and knew what needed to be done.
She is the more masculine of the Nano/Fate pair, even if "Fate-mama" has been pretty much debunked...
Seems like they are going for the Fate-papa route, even if Fate may look more feminine than Nanoha in most aspects, but since she's like the dad working away I suppose the image fits her.
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff230/BPHaru3/RND/th_Fate_chan_is_a_prince_en.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff230/BPHaru3/RND/?action=view¤t=Fate_chan_is_a_prince_en.jpg)
Looks like we'll need to edit my signature and put Fate as a groom ^^U
Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 15:26
Aw crap. I can't see what Haru just said, but I get the feeling I just tossed another log on the Nano/Fate bonfire. Let's cut this debate off before it gets out of hand, shall we?
I'm not touching it. Even I would like a thread to be clean of shipwars for a change.
Oh? Do tell.
Defending their girl in the face of a legion tends to impress parents. So unless I screw up and manage to hurt her, no Blaster 3 Starlight Breaker X5 for me.
Aw crap. I can't see what Haru just said, but I get the feeling I just tossed another log on the Nano/Fate bonfire. Let's cut this debate off before it gets out of hand, shall we?
Ehh he posted that translated page of the interview. Again. I'm not really sure how this discussion about character death suddenly involved a NanoFate mention, but it's horribly off topic.
Haru, get that out of here.
So! I sure am looking forward to that there manga. Yessiree.
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 15:35
Personally I'm looking forward to ViviD more than Force. Vivio has so much potential as a main character that I get excited just thinking about it. I do wonder how they're going to get around the whole "Saint's Armor makes her invincible" thing and make some actual conflict here, but I'm sure 7Arcs can come up with something.
Here's hoping ViviD takes the franchise back to its' roots. StrikerS wasn't bad, but I liked the series more when it had a slightly closer resemblance to traditional magical girl shows.
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-05-01, 15:36
So! I sure am looking forward to that there manga. Yessiree.
Oh yes. Just can't wait to see what adventures will be in store for little Vivio :)
Ehh he posted that translated page of the interview. Again. I'm not really sure how this discussion about character death suddenly involved a NanoFate mention, but it's horribly off topic.
I don't remember if we have discussed in this forum who is the most masculine of the pair, but the subject just popped up here. I think there was something in image thread... but it's impossible to find something there.
Take care and keep smiling :)
Oh yes. Just can't wait to see what adventures will be in store for little Vivio :)
Heh. Maybe it'll give me a slew of ideas for some more wacky shorts involving a certain blind knight. Regardless, I'm excited to read them, no matter what their content is. Need moar NAO.
I don't remember if we have discussed in this forum who is the most masculine of the pair, but the subject just popped up here. I think there was something in image thread... but it's impossible to find something there.
What's the name of this thread? Manga? Yeah. Not about relationships or which person is the more masculine of the pair. As such, off topic and irrelevant. Take it elsewhere.
Small chance of a lot of military stuff happening, seeing how Vivio is still in school. I'm hoping it won't be too much magical girl though. I'm not really looking forward to a simple 'gather X number of Y' or 'defeat Z number of 'monster of the day' enemies' type plots that magical girl shows are so infamous for.
I
***
It did not help that bloggers called Vivio "a parasite" during the airing of StrikerS. This then had been echoed by a lot of people who would be rather aligned to the main fan pairing.
To add to the topic of death in fiction. A lot of great classics used death as plot device for the growth of characters, the OLDEST fiction ever made, Gilgamesh Epic, would not be the same if Enkidu did not die. And most of my favorites had death at some point (Gungrave, a case of "Everyone dies". It was just so compelling, the characters were so attaching that I cried manly tears at many points of the story. Oh, and Bubba in "Forrest Gump").
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 15:42
Small chance of a lot of military stuff happening, seeing how Vivio is still in school. I'm hoping it won't be too much magical girl though. I'm not really looking forward to a simple 'gather X number of Y' or 'defeat Z number of 'monster of the day' enemies' type plots that magical girl shows are so infamous for.
Well yeah, that would be kind of boring. I mean something more like A's or the tail end of Classic; lots of asskicking, lots of neat characters, and NO CHAIN OF COMMAND TO ANSWER TO.
Personally I'm looking forward to ViviD more than Force. Vivio has so much potential as a main character that I get excited just thinking about it. I do wonder how they're going to get around the whole "Saint's Armor makes her invincible" thing and make some actual conflict here, but I'm sure 7Arcs can come up with something.
Here's hoping ViviD takes the franchise back to its' roots. StrikerS wasn't bad, but I liked the series more when it had a slightly closer resemblance to traditional magical girl shows.I don't think she'll have the Saint's Armor anymore. It seems to me like that was a byproduct of the Saint's Cradle and that red relic/lost logia Jail stole to use on her.
Far as official art goes, it seems they've gone ahead and given Vivio a Barrier Jacket based on Nanoha's old one (Sacred Mode, I think it was called?) and quite possibly access to Raising Heart, unless they only showed her holding it along with Nanoha for the mother/daughter flavor.
What I'm REALLY curious about is if they'll keep her magical circles/runes rainbow or if they'll give her her own color. And if she'll use Belkan or Mid-Childan magic, or like Hayate, both at once.
Well yeah, that would be kind of boring. I mean something more like A's or the tail end of Classic; lots of asskicking, lots of neat characters, and NO CHAIN OF COMMAND TO ANSWER TO.
The lack of that chain of command will have certain people howling.
Ready your earplugs and some good loud music.
FlameSparkZ
2009-05-01, 15:46
Small chance of a lot of military stuff happening, seeing how Vivio is still in school. I'm hoping it won't be too much magical girl though. I'm not really looking forward to a simple 'gather X number of Y' or 'defeat Z number of 'monster of the day' enemies' type plots that magical girl shows are so infamous for.
Yeah...I can't quite grasp what ViVid's plot will be like, but it would be nice to show a different side of the character's lives, like what they do when not on duty.
And a bit of Vivio's school life would be nice too :)
We'll have to wait and see.
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 15:47
I don't think she'll have the Saint's Armor anymore. It seems to me like that was a byproduct of the Saint's Cradle and that red relic/lost logia Jail stole to use on her.
She had it before the relic got implanted in her. Remember Dieci and Quattro firing on the chopper? Quattro says something like "If she's really the vessel, then this won't be able to hurt her."
She had it before the relic got implanted in her. Remember Dieci and Quattro firing on the chopper? Quattro says something like "If she's really the vessel, then this won't be able to hurt her."
The Saint's Armor is genetic and inherent to all members of the Sankt Kaiser's bloodline. Autoguard, yo.
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 15:51
The lack of that chain of command will have certain people howling.
Ready your earplugs and some good loud music.
*Turns on Sonata Arctica*
Yeah...I can't quite grasp what ViVid's plot will be like, but it would be nice to show a different side of the character's lives, like what they do when not on duty.
And a bit of Vivio's school life would be nice too
While I'm not opposed to a bit of civilian life, I really hope they don't turn it into a slice of life story. I want my explosions, dammit!
She had it before the relic got implanted in her. Remember Dieci and Quattro firing on the chopper? Quattro says something like "If she's really the vessel, then this won't be able to hurt her."Well yeah, but that's just Quattro thinking she might be invincible. Remember how Quattro also goes on about how the AMF in the Cradle would stop the mages? Sure didn't stop Nanoha from dropping the equivalent of a magical tactical nuke on her through half of the ship-- and then on Vivio again.
For all we know there's no definite saying that she could use it at that point, or that it would really have been that powerful. Considering the fact Vivio almost died from crawling through sewers, I'm not going to believe she's invincible that easily. It just cheapens the plot, and it makes more sense if she doesn't have access to it without a proper power source or battery.
This is just a fan's way to try and hope that she won't be an invincible protagonist. T_T
FlameSparkZ
2009-05-01, 15:51
The Saint's Armor is genetic and inherent to all members of the Sankt Kaiser's bloodline. Autoguard, yo.
Yep, if I remember correctly, it analyzes the attack and produces an effective defense agaisnt it...something along those lines :heh:
And yeah...Vivio will probably still have rainbow colored magic :)
While I'm not opposed to a bit of civilian life, I really hope they don't turn it into a slice of life story. I want my explosions, dammit!
Like Agito blowing up the kitchen while chasing after Rein (who ate her cookie?) :3
I think seeing a bit of Vivio's school life is going to be a given. As for the Saint Armor... well, I can think of a myriad of plot devices, but best to see where the ship strands. Like Dri said, she was hardly in a good shape after escaping from her glass tube, so perhaps without a Relic it's not as powerful.
And I do want Vivio to keep her rainbow magic. It looked great with her.
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 15:55
If nothing else, the SA did nothing to stop SLB x5 from blasting the relic out of her chest, so there are obviously some things that can overcome it. Maybe this will get fleshed out more when the manga comes out?
If nothing else, the SA did nothing to stop SLB x5 from blasting the relic out of her chest, so there are obviously some things that can overcome it. Maybe this will get fleshed out more when the manga comes out?Or maybe it's just not that great. XD
(Or Nanoha is just too hax for it, either way works.)
Although, Vivio at her full power looks like she'd be a good match for just about every other mages, so it's probably just Nanoha being better than it. After all... when your ultimate skill uses all the magical energy in the air around you, and you're fighting someone with a near-endless supply of it... yeeeeeah. It plays in your favor too. XD
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-05-01, 15:59
If nothing else, the SA did nothing to stop SLB x5 from blasting the relic out of her chest, so there are obviously some things that can overcome it. Maybe this will get fleshed out more when the manga comes out?
At that point she was also out of her blind rage. The SA wasn't probably active when she got blasted (as I would hope she is able to activate/deactivate as she needs). If anything they would say she needed a Relic to tap into her full magic/genetic potential.
itanshi1
2009-05-01, 16:04
I'd think vivio could reattain that level of skill through more normal means. Wasn't the relic just some sort of cheat code? it did age her.
No, Relics do boost users beyond normal means. But then, Vivio did not only have a Relic going for her, she was also plugged into the reactor of the Cradle, supplying her with an endless amount of magical energy.
I'd think vivio could reattain that level of skill through more normal means. Wasn't the relic just some sort of cheat code? it did age her.With Nanoha as a teacher, we can assume she's going to turn out into a fantastic mage, yes. XD
If she ever attains that level of power again though, it'll probably be in the climatic last battle of her series, or if-- GASP-- they ever dare hurt Nanoha. Can you picture that? Nanoha getting shot down and Vivio unleashing the Saint's Armor in full?
Vivio's also got Yuuno teaching her what he knows, so even more power to her.
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 16:14
If she ever attains that level of power again though, it'll probably be in the climatic last battle of her series, or if-- GASP-- they ever dare hurt Nanoha. Can you picture that? Nanoha getting shot down and Vivio unleashing the Saint's Armor in full?
Awesome beatdown will be awesome.
Vivio's also got Yuuno teaching her what he knows, so even more power to her.You mean how to read books really fast? :heh:
You mean how to read books really fast? :heh:
Let me put it this way: Yuuno taught Nanoha.
NorthernFallout
2009-05-01, 16:25
dun dun dun duuuuuun
Vivio casting spells both knows, overkill, GO!
Let me put it this way: Yuuno taught Nanoha.Oh, I know, I was just making a tasteless joke about how he always gets shafted for being a really really bad fighter.
He /is/ amazing as a teacher though-- sure, he doesn't know how to perform simple magical attacks that even Nanoha got down in a flash, but he /knows/ things, especially now that he has the Infinite Library. Oh and he has hax barrier spells.
To quote TV Tropes aboute the trope "Weak But Skilled".
Yuuno Scrya is quite possibly the weakest and least well-armed combatant in the series. However, his mastery of binding and barrier magics make him the most Badass Non Action Guy ever.
itanshi1
2009-05-01, 16:36
hehe and i so have the song for him (http://www.lyrics007.com/Beatles%20Lyrics/Nowhere%20Man%20Lyrics.html)
It's a pity Yuuno never got his own spin-off.
He's an archeologist, adventurer, head librarian /and/ he's amazing with support-type magic! C'mon, do we have the setting for an awesome adventure-of-the-week anime here or what?
[Edit] We can make Vice his companion while we're at it.
FlameSparkZ
2009-05-01, 16:47
It's a pity Yuuno never got his own spin-off.
He's an archeologist, adventurer, head librarian /and/ he's amazing with support-type magic! C'mon, do we have the setting for an awesome adventure-of-the-week anime here or what?
The TSAB (read: Chrono) is afraid of him, so they (read: he) keeps him shut in the library, with piles and piles of requests for books deep in the "yet to catalog/find" section of the Infinity Library :heh:
j/k :p
Comartemis
2009-05-01, 16:48
He's an archeologist, adventurer, head librarian /and/ he's amazing with support-type magic! C'mon, do we have the setting for an awesome adventure-of-the-week anime here or what?
"You're a librarian?"
"Part time."
Old joke, I know, but it's still funny. :p
TheShinySword
2009-05-01, 17:26
It's a pity Yuuno never got his own spin-off.
He's an archeologist, adventurer, head librarian /and/ he's amazing with support-type magic! C'mon, do we have the setting for an awesome adventure-of-the-week anime here or what?
[Edit] We can make Vice his companion while we're at it.
And he can travel with his loyal dogs Arf and Zafira. I'm thinking screw Yuuno only getting a spin off we need a Shafted show :p
And to go back a few pages (It really sucks to be at school when all the juicy stuff happens) on the topic of character death I have to say despite the fact it breaks my heart a lot of the time (mostly because it's always my favorite character >.> *eyes Zafira*) I think a well done character death can really be one of the more beautiful touching (and tragic) things in any media. ... that's all.
9taileddemon
2009-05-01, 19:58
Jeez, violent people. I do agree that sometimes character deaths can be extremely important for other character's developments. I am not against character deaths in general. I am against character deaths in NANOHA. I really don't see how it would benefit the series besides bringing a ton of characters into emo mode. Most of the characters in Nanoha are pretty mature already so their is not going to be vast development seen if one character dies.
Also, for me Nanoha is not about the thrill and worry about the character's survival. I am more interested in the feeling of excitement that comes from seeing magical girls blowing the crap out of stuff military style. Death is not something I really think fits with the entire shows idea. Problems that could result in massive destruction and chaos over several worlds? Yes. Lots of main characters dying? No.
However if there was one character that I think could have a cool death scene I would have to say Signum. I can so imagine her fighting to the last second to try to save her master. Kind of like what almost happened with Vita but I would prefer Vita staying alive over Signum. Not that I don't like Signum but I could so see her pulling off the epic death scene perhaps completed with a self-explosion using Agito.
I really like the idea of a Shafted show. All the characters that got screwed over during the anime get their time to shine and interact. Wonder if Yunno will get more page time in Vivid since he helps teach Vivio.
TheShinySword
2009-05-01, 20:14
Jeez, violent people. I do agree that sometimes character deaths can be extremely important for other character's developments. I am not against character deaths in general. I am against character deaths in NANOHA. I really don't see how it would benefit the series besides bringing a ton of characters into emo mode. Most of the characters in Nanoha are pretty mature already so their is not going to be vast development seen if one character dies.
Wait wait violent o.o? I think there's a big difference between saying DIE NANOHA DIE *stabbity stab* and saying characters might die and that would be okay. One is violent one is being reasonable. Nanoha as a series seems to be taking a more serious turn and it is possible that someone could die. Perhaps if someone died character development could make a drastic turn. The question is will someone die and we won't know until we get there.
9taileddemon
2009-05-01, 21:37
Wait wait violent o.o? I think there's a big difference between saying DIE NANOHA DIE *stabbity stab* and saying characters might die and that would be okay. One is violent one is being reasonable. Nanoha as a series seems to be taking a more serious turn and it is possible that someone could die. Perhaps if someone died character development could make a drastic turn. The question is will someone die and we won't know until we get there.
I didn't mean the whole violent thing in a mean way. I meant it jokingly. I do understand your guys' points and agree with a few of them myself.
I just forgot that tone of voice doesn't always pass through the internet properly. :heh:
I still hope none of the main cast dies.
itanshi1
2009-05-01, 22:13
Place your bets now! (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5snli_banzai-squirrel-fishing_fun) (character death)
Ginga
TheShinySword
2009-05-01, 22:14
I didn't mean the whole violent thing in a mean way. I meant it jokingly. I do understand your guys' points and agree with a few of them myself.
I just forgot that tone of voice doesn't always pass through the internet properly. :heh:
I still hope none of the main cast dies.
ah :heh: The internet does not translate tone jokes well :heh:
Personally I'm with you on the hoping no one dies .__. cause if someone does it'll be Zaffy because I have shitty luck.
9taileddemon
2009-05-01, 23:12
Let's see... if it an Ace dies there will be freaking riots.
Zafira is probably safe because his death would not have enough of a reaction. (Sad to say that. I like Zafira too. But I guess being shafted might keep him safe for once. :heh: )
If it is one of Yagami's knights then I could only see Signum being killed. Vita already had her near death experience and managed to survive so it would not be as interesting if it happened again. Shamal is in the same boat as Zafira.
Caro and Erio are safe because I say so! :frustrated: Subaru has already been broken to pieces various times so I doubt it would be her. So for the forwards I would say the highest chance of being killed would be Teana.
Ginga already had her moment where she was ripped to pieces by the Numbers. Not as interesting if it happens again.
For the numbers the only one I would not freak out over them being killed would be Deed. If 7Arcs touches Cinque, blood will be payed. In general I just don't expect it to be a Number that would get killed.
In my opinion it would probably be Teana or Signum that might get killed. But let's take the better option of keeping everybody alive.
...Please? Each time a character dies in Nanoha then a large amount of crack also disappears. And crack makes my school life bearable.
Comartemis
2009-05-02, 00:13
However if there was one character that I think could have a cool death scene I would have to say Signum. I can so imagine her fighting to the last second to try to save her master. Kind of like what almost happened with Vita but I would prefer Vita staying alive over Signum. Not that I don't like Signum but I could so see her pulling off the epic death scene perhaps completed with a self-explosion using Agito.
Now this would be worth watching. I can totally picture Signum's grand finale: she's bleeding from dozens of wounds, Levantine is so badly damaged that it's practically falling apart, (in a brand new double-bladed sword mode, of course), Agito's body is so blasted and broken that you can actually see strands of code leaking out of her, but the two of them stand on a mountain of enemy corpses. As the next wave of troops surges forward to take them down, Sig and Agi commit one last unison, raise Levantine up on high, and with a scream to the heavens, unleash a firestorm that scorches the earth for miles in every direction and creates a nuclear fireball big enough to be seen from orbit.
THAT'S how you pull off a major character death, folks. When Death comes calling for you, you tell him you're gonna bring a few friends with you. With Hot Blood and liberal amounts of awesome, even such things as permanent character death can be made into a good thing in the eyes of the fans.
itanshi1
2009-05-02, 00:45
Well, this is 6 years later, character death for anyone has meaning. Its not like they are doing it 'again'. I also heavily disagree making someone 'not dead after all' devalues anything the character went through, surely they still remember it all.
Comartemis
2009-05-02, 00:58
I also heavily disagree making someone 'not dead after all' devalues anything the character went through, surely they still remember it all.
Agreed. An excellent recent example:
Even though Hinata turned out alright after her short-lived battle with Pain a few chapters ago, there was a stunned moment of silence that echoed across the internet when it looked like she'd been killed off. The fact that she lived doesn't change the fact that it was an immensely emotional moment for the fans and a Crowning Moment of Awesome for Hinata herself.
itanshi1
2009-05-02, 01:03
Surely depends on the writing, but regardless whether a character was killed or not, it must be done well. I don't disagree Vita should have died. I don't agree Ginga should have at that moment. Also your awesome death method is a cliche. Certainly it has its place in literature, but it is but one method. Method bias is kinda dumb, I mean its like painting everything orange.
An explosively awesome character death is not necessary for killing off a major character, and can even seem contrived because that's what is expected. As a result, said death becomes more ho hum than YEEEEAH! Then we have disinterested fans.
An anticlimatic, unexciting death works just as well, because it can serve to infuriate certain members of the cast even more than if the death was dramatic. This then leads to a bout of righteous vengeful rage that has you cheering on the character.
For example...
Maes Hughs was assassinated without much of a fight. Hell, his assassin took the form of his wife to make Maes make that fatal pause. As a result, we lose an important side character to trickery, and tears were had by all. However, this serves to royally piss the living hell out of best friend Roy Mustang. In the manga, when Roy determines who was responsible for Maes' death, proceeds to BURN THE FUCKER mercilessly with cold, unrelenting fury, stalking him through sewers and blasting the bastard until he was reduced to his true form of a nasty little creature the size of a rat. Alas, it seems revenge is still outside of Roy's grasp...
In short, death happens. When it does, explosions are not needed. Death isn't impressed, nor is anyone watching.
Comartemis
2009-05-02, 01:54
Also your awesome death method is a cliche. Certainly it has its place in literature, but it is but one method. Method bias is kinda dumb, I mean its like painting everything orange.
Hey now, Heroic Sacrifice is a time-honored trope, not a cliche. Granted it can become one if you use it all the time, but dramatic tension or not, you shouldn't be killing major characters all the time in the first place unless your name is Tomino (In which case I'd like to have a few words with you out back by the shed...).
itanshi1
2009-05-02, 01:57
Heroic sacrifice is the point of film noir which noir and cowboy bebop are, btw. Same with hong kong romance. Kill 100 all while you have a mortal wound, then you take out the villain. Then you die.
Comartemis
2009-05-02, 02:07
I fail to see how Spike's death qualifies as Heroic Sacrifice. It's more like Too Cool to Live, and if the trope page's comments are accurate, apparently even there it's left up in the air as to whether he actually dies or not.
1. Yuda and Rei's death (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/fist_of_the_north_star/v10/c002/1.html) in Hokuto no Ken, especially Rei's (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/fist_of_the_north_star/v10/c002/11.html).
2. Iggy? (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/jojo_s_bizarre_adventure/v026/c244/11.html)
What?! (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/jojo_s_bizarre_adventure/v026/c244/13.html)
Iggyyyyyyyyyyy!!!! (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/jojo_s_bizarre_adventure/v026/c244/18.html)
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/jojo_s_bizarre_adventure/v026/c244/19.html)
3.Sergeant Elias (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue8VS-bcj88) in Platoon.
4. FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37zxQTmVhXQ)
5. Nicholas D. Wolfwood in Trigun
6. a real life example, "Shoot, coward! You are only killing a man!"
There are no death more awesome than another kind of death in fiction. It's a matter of how to bring them, the "right mood", the right word, the right music (in series and movies), what the death teaches to the reader and the protagonist. Pre-mortem explosion, kill count and hotblood have nothing to do with it. Even in real life, a couple of people died what would appear an anticlimatic death, but their deeds, their legacy and finally their final words crowned them.
Page claiming in the name of every kinds of tearjerking deaths: Jesus Style, death in childbirth, death for your ideals, smirking "Heh, I did it, b*tch/bastard..." in protagonist's arms kind of death, "Let's eat a last chocolate parfait together when I'll be back" kind of death. All of them.
itanshi1
2009-05-02, 02:41
Don't forget "I'll get us something warm to drink!"
I also heavily disagree making someone 'not dead after all' devalues anything the character went through, surely they still remember it all.
'Not dead at all' may not destroy everything (see Clannad, the reset was unexpected, but that did not change that I was crying over and over before) however it would destroy the sense of mortality for the remainder of the series. Rather then fearing for the character, you get the DBZ effect.
"Oh no, Goku died!"
"What, again?"
"Eh, they'll just wish him back with the dragonballs."
Agreed. An excellent recent example:
Even though Hinata turned out alright after her short-lived battle with Pain a few chapters ago, there was a stunned moment of silence that echoed across the internet when it looked like she'd been killed off. The fact that she lived doesn't change the fact that it was an immensely emotional moment for the fans and a Crowning Moment of Awesome for Hinata herself.
And what was the reason many were holding their collective breath?
Jirayia's death.
You'll remember that after they pulled the 'lol, nobody died during the Sasuke Retrieval arc', and worse the 'lol, Gaara's not dead' trick, virtually everyone was shrugging and going 'has he been confirmed dead yet?' 'nah, he's probably coming back.'
Then his death was confirmed. Much rage was had, but it was awesome.
So yeah, the reason people were more easy to accept that Kakashi did die, and Hinata may have died was because someone from the main cast had actually died before. Heroes were no longer invulnerable.
Which was also my entire point. You can't pull of a near-death without an actual death. Especially not in a series with a 'nobody important will die' aura like Nanoha.
FlameSparkZ
2009-05-02, 03:20
Don't forget "I'll get us something warm to drink!"
Let's not forget the "10 times pay back" promise... :(
And yeah, Clannad made me cry too. But at least it ended all well.
In my opinion, if fans desire to have death in this series, Vivio's death will be the best death to cause character development.
Talking about death, the most impactful death that I have seen is actually the members of GGG in Gaogaigar and the main character (especially the dog's death) in Sokyuu no Fafner - Single Program - Right of Left.
However, I believe that death is not the most painful and impactful event. I believe that getting someone hurt badly is more impactful than death itself. What I mean here is permenant scar like what happened to Louise in Gundam OO and Coco im Nasquash where they will affact the character and the people around them. Those situation are more painful than death itself.
TheShinySword
2009-05-02, 09:22
'Not dead at all' may not destroy everything (see Clannad, the reset was unexpected, but that did not change that I was crying over and over before) however it would destroy the sense of mortality for the remainder of the series. Rather then fearing for the character, you get the DBZ effect.
"Oh no, Goku died!"
"What, again?"
"Eh, they'll just wish him back with the dragonballs."
I gotta go with Keroko on this one. Bring someone back once and you get *sniffle* "He's okay after all" Bring someone back twice and you get. "...He's okay after all... hurrah" Bring someone back three times and you get. "Oh what you were dead?"
itanshi1
2009-05-02, 09:42
yeah dbz was horrible, thats a given
heh my quote wasn't clannad :)
When I first found out about StrikerS, it was in an AMV that focused almost entirely on Subaru's berserk episode to the song The Hero Without A Name (Darker Than Black's second opening). From watching it alone, I was persuaded that Ginga was going to die, and that's what got me to watch StrikerS-- and then rewind to the other two seasons.
After seeing that she didn't die at all, I can't say I have a preference. Both ways are acceptable:
in one case, Ginga dies, and Subaru evolves as a character. I could see an ending shot with her holding Blitz Caliber in her hand, clenching it, and looking up to the sky. Battle-hardened, 'not everything always ends well' Subaru rides off to save people with the twin Calibers. It's not a happy ending, but it's not a Bad End either.
in the other case, Ginga doesn't die, and we get what happened in StrikerS. It's no worse or better, it's just a different way to do it. Subaru learns a lesson, just a different one, and she saves her sister in the end. Happy ending, everything always turns out to be OK.
So really-- I can't say I like one more than the other. As a roleplayer I'm a sucker for not always getting happy endings, though, so the first one has its charms. But looking at the way the anime was set up, it would have made no sense to kill off Ginga so abruptly without giving her more screentime to establish her as verily important. The entire tone was save/rescue, not avenge, especially with Vivio in the mix.
Oh, gosh, what have I started, character death discussion in a Nanoha thread? LORD HAVE MERCY. D:
And RE: the discussion above, I couldn't agree more. Series that make death a recurring joke just completely ruin the moment, and then they come up with a 'so dead he can't be revived anymore' method a-la-Goku to keep him out of the story-- but then they retcon that with a super wish! Really you might as well stop killing the characters altogether if you're going to bring them back within the next volume anyway.
*cough*lockonstratos*cough*
True, that. Why kill him/her when you can bring him/her back to life in the first place? Just because they could? pftttt
That said, if any character's death would have the biggest impact, I'd say it'd be Fate's. Can you imagine the shitstorm that would be kicked up by the sheer numbers of Fate fanboys? Also, cue Nanoha, Vivio, Hayate, Yuuno and Teana thirsting for blood.
Mhmm.. Bloodthirsty Yuuno... I'd love to see that. Yes, even if it means Fate's death. Time for the guys(other than Touma) to shine. Show them all the power of bondageoffensively used binding spells!
Avatar_notADV
2009-05-02, 14:03
What about making Nanoha/gang the nominal antagonists? The new characters as sympathetic protagonists, who happen to be opposed by the TSAB... You can get a lot of story out of that before the eventual befriending. ;p
That's.... not at all that far fetched, actually.
That's.... not at all that far fetched, actually.See: StrikerS Sound Stage X. That's basically what they tried doing with Runessa, isn't it?
Hmm, not really. Runessa was more a sympathetic antagonist. But give these three characters a plot that forces them to go against the TSAB (the book must be destroyed, but destroying it would take Lily with it, just to name an example) and we have our new heroes fighting for a just cause while our old heroes are fighting for their just cause.
Hmm, not really. Runessa was more a sympathetic antagonist. But give these three characters a plot that forces them to go against the TSAB (the book must be destroyed, but destroying it would take Lily with it, just to name an example) and we have our new heroes fighting for a just cause while our old heroes are fighting for their just cause.Well I more meant that they tried making Runessa appear as a good guy for trying to avenge herself for all the nasty stuff the TSAB did to her homeworld. Which would actually make her a decent protagonist if we make the TSAB the antagonists.
Of course it's a matter of time before, if they do that, the two join forces to combat a third, more powerful group. I wonder what that'd be like if Jail and Precia joined forces. An army of cyborg Fate clones! D:
For the numbers the only one I would not freak out over them being killed would be Deed. If 7Arcs touches Cinque, blood will be payed. In general I just don't expect it to be a Number that would get killed
.
Well too bad they can't off sette, too unpopular you know
Well too bad they can't off sette, too unpopular you knowDidn't they just jail her forever and ever along with Uno, Tre, Quattro and Jail? Might as well be offed, we'll never get to see her. Unless they bring Jail back as a villain.
Unless they bring Jail back
Well, seeing how they made Hayate more like in Kimura's doujinshi already... :uhoh:
Evil Rick
2009-05-02, 14:54
I read 7 pages of Nanoha force alredy (don't know if it's the whole number, probably no O_o)
Not the big deal, more like an intro, maybe I'm missing something :uhoh:
NorthernFallout
2009-05-02, 14:57
The prologue is only 8 pages so. The rest is bound in a few months.
I don't mind a serious Hayate. I'm also not a big fan of BetrayerS because I find it nonsensical that they would split up that way over Nanoha's death, or that they would BAN MAGIC because Nanoha overused it and died. It just seems like a cheap plot device to me-- sorry to any fans of that particular doujin series. Just doesn't make any sense to me.
All that to say I don't mind a serious Hayate-- she was pretty dead serious in StrikerS as it were, especially with unleashing Diabolic Emission like she did. It's not a big stretch that now she actually looks older and has commander experience under her belt.
Pages! Yes, the prologue only had 8. Who knows how many the actual chapters will have; my guess is anywhere between 8 and 24 per month.
*blink*
Uhm... this may come off as slightly rude, but did you even read the doujin? Nanoha is very much alive and kicking in BetrayerS, and it is not her death that drives a wedge between the cast, but Hayate's methods to stamp out the corruption in the Bureau.
As for pages, I think that the pages which were omake this time will turn into live pages when the actual manga starts. I can see those omake as filler material as well, for when they don't have the usual amount of pages.
*blink*
Uhm... this may come off as slightly rude, but did you even read the doujin? Nanoha is very much alive and kicking in BetrayerS, and it is not her death that drives a wedge between the cast, but Hayate's methods to stamp out the corruption in the Bureau.I did, forever ago, so I'm probably misremembering. But I seem to remember that Nanoha being dead was a huge plot point, and then they revealed she was still alive partway into it. Or maybe I'm confusing my doujins again.
[Edit] Actually I checked, and the few summaries I found all say 'Nanoha's overabuse of/death due to magic has caused the TSAB to ban magical warfare and launch real weaponry once again, splitting the group into three.' Nothing saying that these summaries are accurate, but then if they aren't someone needs to be shot for writing them.
Yes you are. :p Nanoha never died in BetrayerS.
Yes you are. :p Nanoha never died in BetrayerS.Mm, then someone needs to be killed over shody summaries and I need to pick that doujin back up and see if it makes more sense after a few months of having watched the series rather than plunge into it right after having finished it. D: !
Though, I never said she died-- rather, the summaries all say she had been marked as killed in action, but then she shows up again in the story, making people go OSHI.
(As a note, though, I still don't agree with splitting up the TSAB like they did at all; there's grim dark, and then there's 'forced down your throat' everything's gone wrong.)
Hmyeah, you're right on that one. The BetrayerS plot is quite forced. It's a major flaw of trying to combine a plot like that into one doujin. You need to spread it out and develop such a plot, not have it there and expect it to work with only flashbacks to go on.
Evil Rick
2009-05-02, 19:55
*blink*
Uhm... this may come off as slightly rude, but did you even read the doujin? Nanoha is very much alive and kicking in BetrayerS, and it is not her death that drives a wedge between the cast, but Hayate's methods to stamp out the corruption in the Bureau.
As for pages, I think that the pages which were omake this time will turn into live pages when the actual manga starts. I can see those omake as filler material as well, for when they don't have the usual amount of pages.
BetrayerS had a complicated and cheap story, no wonder why it wasn't continued, just liked it because the artist work with the design.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
@Atomico X
Ahhh... so it's juts a prologue uh? 8 pages? I only read 7, I think I miss one O.o
Less of a prologue, more of a recap, "heads up" and trailer to the full release.
Also BetrayerS was placed on hiatus because Himura wanted to work on Sword Dancers. Story had nothing to do with it.
Silvance
2009-05-02, 21:46
Ahhh... so it's juts a prologue uh? 8 pages? I only read 7, I think I miss one O.o
There are 8 pages alright. There are 7 image files in total. Page 6 and 7 are joined together to form one image. Maybe that's why you mistook that there are 7 pages only. D=
Evil Rick
2009-05-02, 23:07
There are 8 pages alright. There are 7 image files in total. Page 6 and 7 are joined together to form one image. Maybe that's why you mistook that there are 7 pages only. D=
Yeah, I think it was that now that I saw it again XP
Upon glancing at it again with a fresh new eye, I can enjoy BetrayerS for what it is, an excuse to get the characters seriously fighting against one another. Art's decent, action's well-depicted, but look at it any further than that and you'll spot the flaws-- ergo, don't. Ignore the story, ignore the speech bubbles. Just glance over the imagery, enjoy Subaru and Nanoha going at it, and then put it away in a safe.
So whee, that's that taken care of.
I'm a bit late to the party, but I'd just like to add to this death discussion that I was really glad they didn't kill Vita In StrikerS. The reason for this is: StrikerS sucked, plain and simple. It wasn't a (very) bad anime in itself, but compared to A's it was plain terrible. So I'm really glad they didn't kill one of the best characters in a bad show. I'm sure they would mess up with the emotional impact anyways.
Now if manga or possible 4th season will be as good as A's I wouldn't mind an important character dying. But I don't think that death is really necessary in Nanoha. One Piece is by far the best of the "Big 3" shonen mangas and it does so without killing characters.
FlameSparkZ
2009-05-03, 03:11
I did, forever ago, so I'm probably misremembering. But I seem to remember that Nanoha being dead was a huge plot point, and then they revealed she was still alive partway into it. Or maybe I'm confusing my doujins again.
[Edit] Actually I checked, and the few summaries I found all say 'Nanoha's overabuse of/death due to magic has caused the TSAB to ban magical warfare and launch real weaponry once again, splitting the group into three.' Nothing saying that these summaries are accurate, but then if they aren't someone needs to be shot for writing them.
Though usually you can trust reviews, there are those who make something up for the lulz...
Heck, a few years ago, I read a review on Season 1 of Nanoha saying that Yuuno was a Prince from a magical world looking for the Jewel Seeds and that Fate was already enrolled in the same school as Nanoha, but Nanoha didn't knew who the black-clad mage was...It sounded too cliche to me that I didn't even watch it.
A couple years later I saw a YouTube vid on the Cartrige System upgrade they get in A's and went "OMG! So Awsome!!!"
Then, as I watched the first season, I noticed that it was very different from the review I had read.
...And here I am :D
The bottom line is: watch the series yourself (or at least the first episode) rather than go by someone else's opinion :)
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-03, 08:08
What about making Nanoha/gang the nominal antagonists? The new characters as sympathetic protagonists, who happen to be opposed by the TSAB... You can get a lot of story out of that before the eventual befriending. ;pSSX gives us that (a little), and Gundam 00 has inspired a couple of fanfics to follow this route completely. And so, I think it will work.
Of course, a much better example would be the Wolkenritter.
TheShinySword
2009-05-03, 09:00
Though in that case they're sympathetic antagonists.
The difference lies in the the goal and methods. Fate was a sympathetic antagonist because her goal, while understandable, was ultimately a selfish one. She knew nothing about Alicia, and merely wanted her mother to recognize her. Runessa had a noble goal, but her methods were brutal and caused as much pain as they were meant to solve.
The Wolkenritter, on the other hand, had a noble goal. They wanted to save a person who was doomed to die because of them. Their methods were noble as well, gather what we need, but make sure not to kill our enemies.
Noble goal, noble methods, and in the end we are even left wondering which side we should cheer for. Do we cheer for Nanoha and let Hayate die? Or do we cheer for the Wolkenritter and let them complete that dangerous Lost Logia?
This is what made the Wolkenritter sympathetic protagonists.
TheShinySword
2009-05-03, 09:18
Nope still antagonists. The words antagonist doesn't mean villian but rather one who opposes the protagonist in this case Nanoha. The antagonist is not necessarily the bad guy and can ultimately join the hero and may even have the same goal as the protagonist but ultimately uses methods the protagonist doesn't agree with or are opposed to the protagonist's methods.
Hmm, in that case I'm having trouble seeing how Nanoha can become an antagonist in this battle... after all, the moment people see her they're going to assume she's the protagonist, unless they pull a BetrayerS and let her do stuff that is considered evil at first glance. But that would not make sense, nor be in line with what we've seen so far.
TheShinySword
2009-05-03, 09:31
Nanoha could only be an antagonist if they play it as the new characters being the protagonists who are opposed by the TSAB and potentially shaft Nanoha so hard she doesn't appear til late which judging by the preview isn't going to happen.
Personally I think either Touma and co, will either be just another group of protagonists who eventually join up with Nanoha or a group of sympathetic antagonists who eventually are befriended. Though my money's on the former because well we had the wolkies already and since it appears Touma has a similar book... ^^;;.
It'd actually be pretty easy to paint the TSAB as antagonists, but they have already failed the condition that would be needed to hit this.
They'd have to introduce the new characters first, without going back and re-introducing the TSAB crews. Establish the main characters and everything they are doing as the Good Thing To Do and make sure there is not a single doubt about this, completely independantly of the TSAB. And then introduce the TSAB trying to foil those plans.
But sadly, they have already gone ahead and established the TSAB as the good guys by showing them to us right away gathering up for an investigation. At this point there would be no way to retract this, so they'll be the protagonists.
Touma and his crew, IF they oppose the TSAB, would probably fall into the anti-hero category.
Estavali
2009-05-03, 13:15
Not really. The TSAB ordering an investigation only means that Hayate and co are just doing what they're supposed to do (they are government employees after all).
The real reasons, if any, for initiating an investigation may not have anything to do with unearthing truths and bringing criminals to justice. Indeed, the reverse can be equally true, that it is used as a cover-up tool that removes attention from what the higher-ups are really up to.
For example, a member of the High Council asks Hayate to look into a smuggling ring that is dealing with, say, dangerous artifacts from Ancient Belka. Which is not false; the smuggling ring does involve itself in the search and research of powerful and exotic artifacts from Ancient Belka and proves to be a potential danger to society. But what if the real reason for this investigation is to retrieve a certain legacy of that period, and let the old team wipe out this rival group at the same time? There is a risk in this approach, since if your investigation team is more capable than expected and shares view different enough to not turn a blind eye to their finds. At this point, the author will need to decide whether to be lazy and let things end here, or work a bit more by giving the investigators (or maybe Hayate alone, since she's the leader) a reason NOT to unmask the real criminals as who they really are (threats that goes out of their hands, like apprehending these people without care will quickly bring whatever stability in the TSAB crumbling down), and watch her and her team get incredibly frustrated, stuck between justice, duty and reality.
My 2 cents =3.
Advent000
2009-05-03, 16:04
Touma and his crew, IF they oppose the TSAB, would probably fall into the anti-hero category.
There's a certain personality that goes with anti-hero's, for example Riddick, the Punisher and Batman.
Just having Touma oppose the TSAB, wouldn't make him a Anti-hero.
itanshi1
2009-05-03, 16:44
How about The Irresponsible Captain Tyler?
Outlaender
2009-05-03, 19:45
How about The Irresponsible Captain Tyler?
Ah, he's a gadfly, not an anti-hero. He wasn't anti navy either, he simply didn't feel or see the need to "toe the line", to divide up the universe into "them" and "us". In fact, one of the higher ups comments on this, mentioning a species of monkey that ostracises some of its member, but still relies on them for survival, as they represent an important part of the gene pool. He goes on to say, that as annoying as the type of maverick Tylor is, the Navy still needs people like him, or it stagnates.
;)
itanshi1
2009-05-03, 22:58
Heh, I love that guy. I wonder what word they used in japanese. It could very well have been Itanshiyo :P Yes heretic
Putting my namesake aside, that might be a fine addition to the series.
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-05-04, 11:48
Anti-hero....maybe we need someone like Alucard to show up :p
NorthernFallout
2009-05-04, 12:00
God-mode, badass, evil, anti-hero...sounds like a deal.
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-05-04, 12:05
God-mode, badass, evil, anti-hero...sounds like a deal.
I dunno if I would say evil. Maybe so bad-ass that he/she appears evil. It's not their fault that their allies get in the way as he/she decimates the enemy :heh:
prescience
2009-05-04, 12:44
Hmm, I wonder how much Hayate's character has changed since StrikerS... ;)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4914/yagami.jpg
All hail scary Hayate...
NorthernFallout
2009-05-04, 12:50
I dunno if I would say evil. Maybe so bad-ass that he/she appears evil. It's not their fault that their allies get in the way as he/she decimates the enemy :heh:
Well, true...sadistic might have been the word I was after :p
9taileddemon
2009-05-04, 12:51
Mahou Shoujo Cosplay Hayate is crossed out. :heh:
Scary Hayate is awesome.
^ I see that 5 minute shop is being put to good use. :D
Anyway, after giving it some thought, how likely does the rest of you think tat Touma and Isis are not in the TSAB? So far, Isis hasn't shown anything related to the bureau, and Touma is not much better with his device that looked cobbled together out of spare parts.
TheShinySword
2009-05-04, 17:12
I'm pretty much putting all my money on them not being in the TSAB.
Key Board
2009-05-04, 17:38
It's probably going to be like the first season with Touya being Nanoha (oooh.. what's this shiny device?) and Nanoha being Chrono (what the hell do you think you're doing? This is my jurisdiction)
Speaking of which who was that man speaking with Touya in the prologue. It looks awfully like Erio
prescience
2009-05-04, 18:04
Are you talking about page 69? The taller char definitely looks like Erio, but to me the shorter one seems to match Isis's character design better than Touma's. Look at the shape of the jacket, and at the (whatever it is around his/her neck)...
I don't think that Touma is a complete newcomer to magic in the way that Nanoha was in S1; I'm guessing his device is self-made (like Subaru and Teana's original devices), which isn't something a complete novice would be able to do...
@Keroko: Touma not being part of the TSAB seems to make sense. The whole "rescuing Lily" bit keeps reminding me of Zest and Agito, even though the circumstances are quite different. Oh, and thanks for "that 5 minute 'shop" - my old wallpaper was getting a bit boring... :)
Looking at page 69 (05), Coalguys' scanlation talks about an "engagement ring", but the object in question looks like the bracelet thing in the character sheet. I suppose it could transform between the two forms, being a magical artifact. Why does the damn speech block have to obscure it?
TheShinySword
2009-05-04, 18:13
Well the character in the corner of the page looks like Isis but I don't think the shorter one at the top does much.
@prescience: I mentioned it the last time it was brought up. Although Hayate and Light both have "Yagami" as the sound of their surname, they write it with different kanji.
prescience
2009-05-05, 01:52
@TheShinySword: True. I doubt it's Touma either. Looking at the height difference, it's probably someone substantially younger than Erio (assuming that is Erio), whereas Touma and Isis are 15, and Erio is 16. Or maybe Erio just got uber-tall...
@JimmyC: Yeah, I know. I was just making a random joke; I wasn't implying that they are actually related...
The tall character on the right is Subaru. It's just her jacket that gives her that muscular-ish appearance.
The left one is definitely Touma rather than Isis, looking at their hair colors.
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-05, 08:31
This just hit me... Dunno why I didn't notice it earlier...
...remember Lily was naked in the prologue yes? Maybe her Knight Armor got dispelled by Touma's right hand. :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:
If that was the case Lily herself would have been destroyed, being a magical program and all.
LoweGear
2009-05-05, 08:53
Well we don't know what Lily is supposed to be exactly... she might be a completely new lifeform in the Nanoverse.
All I know is, she has some nice nipp-
*SNIPED*
prescience
2009-05-05, 09:50
Hmm... I dunno about that being Subaru. The face looks more like Erio to me. Also, the bit about memories in the first frame could be a reference to Erio's past. OTOH, the height difference would make more sense if it were Subaru and this was a flashback or something. Aargh, this is confusing...
About the nature of Lily, I wonder if she might be some kind of variant on a Unison device. On page 71 (06-07 left), Touma looks like he's in Unison, but she's still physically separate from him...
What reason is there to go into Erio's past though? He really doesn't have anything to do with this plot. Besides, if we look at the clothing then the person in the top frame and the one bellow it are the same person. Since Erio grew up, that girl face can really only belong to Subaru.
It might help if we had some sort of context on what's going on at the 'beach' there.
Is it a flashback, in which case maybe the boy next to Subaru is-- gasp-- Touma and she might have saved him from something, a-la Nanoha saving Subaru, or the StrikerS ending where she saves those two kids (boy and girl) from a sinking boat?
Is it an important memory, in which case maybe that figure is supposed to be Ix with how she always wanted to see the sunset/beach with Subaru?
Or is it going on as everyone is getting ready to dispatch, in which case your guess is as good as mine on who it is?
Either ways, height makes little difference-- actually, Subaru is freakishly small by Sound Stage X compared to the others. Even Erio and Caro are starting to outgrow her. Maybe magical cyborg genes aren't that great for growing tall after all.
Key Board
2009-05-05, 20:01
I would say that there's a 99 + 1 chance that Lily is a Unison Device like Reinforce / Reinforce Zwei
On the upcoming, by July, do you mean Megami July Issue or on the month of July? I can't wait to see Lily nude in a glass jar and Touma's reaction
FlameSparkZ
2009-05-06, 05:52
On the upcoming, by July, do you mean Megami July Issue or on the month of July? I can't wait to see Lily nude in a glass jar and Touma's reaction
Priceless I imagine :D
Even though they're is really teasing us by doing ViVid and Force at the same time, I'm looking forward to both :heh:
And I've been wondering, maybe Touma/Tohma's device is "duct taped" of a reason?
Maybe the device can change mode, and the blade becomes somekind of anchor/blade whip :uhoh::uhoh:
I'm thinking it's duct taped because it's like Teana's Anchor Gun, a cobbled together device build by a 15-year-old.
TheShinySword
2009-05-06, 06:16
Though if you look at the little black pieces of tape holding it together in the picture looks more like electrical tape to me. *cough* but yeah going with Keroko. Besides the strips are too tiny to become a whip.
Ottocycle
2009-05-06, 06:21
On the upcoming, by July, do you mean Megami July Issue or on the month of July? I can't wait to see Lily nude in a glass jar and Touma's reaction
Sorry to tell you, but it's the month of July. The end of it to be exact.
Also, it's not in Megami anymore. It's now in Nyantype.
I see, can't wait for August Nyantype then...
Kikaifan
2009-05-08, 13:00
Kind of late, but :love: :love: at that first page.
Wonder if Rein's related to the plot at all or just the poster-child for the ancient Belkan era...
Key Board
2009-05-08, 17:26
Lily and Rein are probably published by the same Tome factory
TheShinySword
2009-05-08, 18:22
*pictures Lily and Rein being put together by machines*
*pictures Lily and Rein being put together by machines*
Hammer them over the head to be sure they don't blow up.
Lily and Rein are probably published by the same Tome factory
They are Vat born...remember how Lily was apparently nude when Touma found her? Lucky bastard, the first guy in Nanoha verse to stumble on nude women in labs.
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-09, 06:04
*pictures Lily and Rein being put together by machines*I dunno... I saw this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc_jDEvGC7s) for both Lily and Rein and went :love:. :uhoh:
Supremezero
2009-05-10, 06:20
Sorry if this has already been answered or something, but is Nyantype going to be weekly or monthly?
Ottocycle
2009-05-10, 07:58
Sorry if this has already been answered or something, but is Nyantype going to be weekly or monthly?
Like its progenitor Newtype, it will be monthly.
Nina.Wolken
2009-05-10, 11:11
So, ViVid will start in the next CompAce right? Seems like the cover already leaks through the net... 2 weeks before the actual release of the magazine? That's fast! :heh: http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/331/middle1241887375.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=middle1241887375.jpg) Nice : )
*page claim for touching Mother/Daughter cover*
Oooh, I sure want a high-res scan of that one.
Now let's hope they're going to be as fast with the actual chapter leaks as well. :3
DezoPenguin
2009-05-10, 11:23
So, ViVid will start in the next CompAce right? Seems like the cover already leaks through the net... 2 weeks before the actual release of the magazine? That's fast! :heh: http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/331/middle1241887375.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=middle1241887375.jpg) Nice : )
*page claim for touching Mother/Daughter cover*
*apparently with squicky panty-shot on the ten-year old* :uhoh: I think I'll just be off deluding myself that it's just an artifact caused by the low image quality.
So, ViVid will start in the next CompAce right? Seems like the cover already leaks through the net... 2 weeks before the actual release of the magazine? That's fast! :heh: http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/331/middle1241887375.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=middle1241887375.jpg) Nice : )
*page claim for touching Mother/Daughter cover*
(Is it from へにょへにょ?)
ahhhh actually it's not a leak but ad in コンプティーク(Comptiq) June issue.:)
Kadokawa puts ad on some magazines so be careful.
Nina.Wolken
2009-05-10, 11:37
ahhhh actually it's not a leak but ad in コンプティーク(Comptiq) June issue.:)
That explains the bottom part. But leak or ad doesn't change much the impact it has though. They've got us eager to see the magazine released :p.
I just wonder now, how many mag' does Kadokawa produce exactly, seems like they are everywhere? :uhoh:
(Is it from へにょへにょ?)
ahhhh actually it's not a leak but ad in コンプティーク(Comptiq) June issue.:)
Kadokawa puts ad on some magazines so be careful.
Does that mean that the Comptic June will also have more info on the story in addition to the manga in Comp Ace?
I dunno... I saw this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc_jDEvGC7s) for both Lily and Rein and went :love:. :uhoh:
Can't see it.
That explains the bottom part. But leak or ad doesn't change much the impact it has though. They've got us eager to see the magazine released :p.
I just wonder now, how many mag' does Kadokawa produce exactly, seems like they are everywhere? :uhoh:
How many Kadokawa's magazines?
(Okay I count them.ehto,Monthly magazines are Newtype,Comptiq,Ace,Comp Ace,Gundam Ace,Asuka and Nyantype.Fujimi publishing is Kadokawa's subsidiary so Dragon Magazine and Dragon Age are Kadokawa's too.....IIRC there are many BL magazines...:eyespin:And there are bimonthly mag...:eyespin::eyespin::eyespin:)
Sorry I'm not sure.:heh:
Does that mean that the Comptic June will also have more info on the story in addition to the manga in Comp Ace?
Comptiq June issue was already out.But there isn't info about the story.
Dragon Age also has same ad as Comptiq.Same ad so there isn't info either.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/th_ad_vivid.jpg (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/ad_vivid.jpg)
Supremezero
2009-05-14, 08:54
They are Vat born...remember how Lily was apparently nude when Touma found her? Lucky bastard, the first guy in Nanoha verse to stumble on nude women in labs.
Nah, that's Zest, remember?
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-14, 15:17
So Touma is first to find one, and live to tell about it?
Of course when taken out of context, Zest would seem to have deserved it. :uhoh:
(It's not so important but)New ViVid's image from Com Ace official site (http://www.comptiq.com/ace/)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/th_compace200907_nvf.png (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/compace200907_nvf.png)
The left panel is new.The right panel is the cover of the Comp Ace July issue.According to Fujima's blog, these are images of a pencilboard that will be included in Comp Ace July issue.
Nina.Wolken
2009-05-15, 02:08
(It's not so important but)New ViVid's image from Com Ace official site (http://www.comptiq.com/ace/)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/th_compace200907_nvf.png (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/compace200907_nvf.png)
*That's only fan-service, nothing more than fan-service, just fan-service*But that left pic is just too good :p.
*Nina's going to work with a stupid grin on her face*
Thanks JINNSK!
... Why do the words 'delicious fruitmix' suddenly seem so appropriate?
LoweGear
2009-05-15, 02:27
Fruit Loops? :uhoh:
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-15, 02:38
Too much sugar is bad for your teeth and Blood GI. :p
(Other than that, I've no idea what we are talking about. :uhoh:)
It's a cute and sexy NanoFateVivio pic. Surrounded by lots of fruit.
Therefore, delicious fruitmix.
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-15, 02:43
I didn't notice the fruit; main course took all focus... :eyespin:
Outlaender
2009-05-15, 03:21
Oh, my... Using a underage girl in a sexy pose with two other women- the Moral Majority shall hear of this!! *not* :uhoh: :rolleyes: ;)
(It's not so important but)New ViVid's image from Com Ace official site (http://www.comptiq.com/ace/)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/th_compace200907_nvf.png (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/compace200907_nvf.png)
The left panel is new.The right panel is the cover of the Comp Ace July issue.According to Fujima's blog, these are images of a pencilboard that will be included in Comp Ace July issue.
Finally a promising picture ;) ViVid is showing potential to be much better than Force :D
(It's not so important but)New ViVid's image from Com Ace official site (http://www.comptiq.com/ace/)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/th_compace200907_nvf.png (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/compace200907_nvf.png)
The left panel is new.The right panel is the cover of the Comp Ace July issue.According to Fujima's blog, these are images of a pencilboard that will be included in Comp Ace July issue.
I always knew something about vivio was a little....fruity *bad pun!*
TheShinySword
2009-05-15, 13:36
Ah I get it. Vivid will be a manga about Vivio using the power of fruit to save the world from morbid obesity!
>.>
<.<
well it could be...
Does anyone else notice how Fate, Nanoha and Vivio aren't just in bed, with nothing but towels on and fruit all around them, but they're also wet, as indicated by the towels sticking to their skin/turning transparent in places?
Who in their right mind has lots of fruits on their bed for after they take a bath/shower? REALLY? They're gonna be all sticky and have to clean again! D:
(Innuendo brought to you by the Anti-Morality Brigade.)
You gotta love the 180 degree shift in opinion as soon as a certain pairing is added. ON A PROMOTIONAL PICTURE.
Protip: For Force, it is just chapter 0, the real story have not started yet.
Wild Goose
2009-05-16, 04:39
Nobody ever said that this fandom was deep, Sheba. Shallow, yes. But but never deep.
BTW, just out of curiousity: are Mizuki and Yukari writing this manga, or is it Tsuzuki or someone else?
Less spiteful comments and more constructive ones please.
I hope we'll be getting early leaks again this time as well. Just ten more days after all, and with early leaks there might be less.
Fruit Bath? ...interesting...
Remember to eat your veggies, eat your fruits, and stay away from the loli lest the FBI knocks on your door.
Evil Rick
2009-05-16, 10:29
Don't know you guys but I personally missliked the Rein big size, I would prefer to have my little fairy-like Rein :(
I love the fact that they're actually using it, even if we don't know how long she will. According to Rein it's very mana inefficient, so chances are we'll see her return to her smaller size in the manga sooner or later.
Still, to see it used outside the Sound Stage where it was introduced is something I'm very happy with.
She was bound to grow tall like Ein anyway. Just not as busty.
PhoenixG
2009-05-16, 13:41
She was bound to grow tall like Ein anyway. Just not as busty.
I'll bet that Hayate can fix that with some massage :3
I'll bet that Hayate can fix that with some massage :3
If all else fails, she still have Sexy Mode (http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8364/reinzweisexymode.png).
Rein will grow tall and busty.
arkhangelsk
2009-05-16, 21:08
I love the fact that they're actually using it, even if we don't know how long she will. According to Rein it's very mana inefficient, so chances are we'll see her return to her smaller size in the manga sooner or later.
Who knows? Maybe they upgraded her. All else being equal, a larger volume should use more energy, but being big has its advantages too, so if they increased her linker core's power (or if it grew naturally) the balance of what's a good idea might change.
LoweGear
2009-05-16, 21:09
I'm all for an... upgraded Rein Zwei, if you know what I mean...
*whistles*
Rein's growth is an indication of how much Hayate's power have increase for the past six years.
Comartemis
2009-05-16, 22:17
I certainly hope not. She was positively tiny when Hayate was a SS-rank. If her growth parallels Hayate, by now Yagami-chan be the freaking Death Star in a uniform.
Rising Dragon
2009-05-16, 22:27
Isn't that a suitable comparison for Hayate anyway? Extreme amounts of power, but with poor personal defense?
Comartemis
2009-05-16, 22:33
Tell that to the capital ships.
And I mean the comparison quite literally! At this point Hayate-chan is way way OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAA--
*Shot to pieces*
TheShinySword
2009-05-16, 22:35
*reloads* On the topic of Hayate here's to hoping she gets her fair amount of page time in force.
Fishfood1
2009-05-16, 22:43
(It's not so important but)New ViVid's image from Com Ace official site (http://www.comptiq.com/ace/)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/th_compace200907_nvf.png (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/compace200907_nvf.png)
omg that looks awesome!
that picture is enough for me to die of happiness :D
I certainly hope not. She was positively tiny when Hayate was a SS-rank. If her growth parallels Hayate, by now Yagami-chan be the freaking Death Star in a uniform.
Well maybe she simply can give her more magical energy because she don't need much anymore.
Being in a position where she don't has to deploy to the front lines and all.
RF6 was her first real commanding job and only temporarily, so she may not have rebalanced her mana with Rein back then, but now she maybe did.
MeisterBabylon
2009-05-18, 07:46
I certainly hope not. She was positively tiny when Hayate was a SS-rank. If her growth parallels Hayate, by now Yagami-chan be the freaking Death Star in a uniform.The elvish blood in her runs strong. :p
Considering Hayate supposedly has more potential power than Nanoha and Fate (it keeps saying she has a ludicrously huge mana pool, for instance, and her mage rank is even higher than Nanoha's), and this is several years later...
Maybe she just got good enough at juggling her mana around that she can afford to have Rein around in a bigger form?
DezoPenguin
2009-05-19, 23:41
Might also be that since Hayate tends to hang out in command positions, she doesn't use her magic all that often, leaving more for Rein to tap. Sort of the opposite of Fate and Arf.
Huh? Since when does Rein tap into Hayate's magic? Rein is a Unison Device, not a familiar.
spawnofthejudge
2009-05-20, 07:48
Huh? Since when does Rein tap into Hayate's magic? Rein is a Unison Device, not a familiar.Don't Devices basically channel magic from their masters?
Sure, normal Devices do, but Rein is a Unison Device. Only in Unison does she have access to her masters magic. She may have been created from Hayate's Linker Core, but now lives as a separate entity.
Think about Agito. She had no problem surviving for a couple of centuries without a master, nor any problems casting magic without one.
spawnofthejudge
2009-05-20, 08:09
Sure, normal Devices do, but Rein is a Unison Device. Only in Unison does she have access to her masters magic. She may have been created from Hayate's Linker Core, but now lives as a separate entity.
Think about Agito. She had no problem surviving for a couple of centuries without a master, nor any problems casting magic without one.Maybe Unison Devices have the magic to maintain their tiny form by themselves, but not enough for alternate big forms. For that, she would need a Master and to borrow some magic/mana.
Comartemis
2009-05-20, 08:37
Sure, normal Devices do, but Rein is a Unison Device. Only in Unison does she have access to her masters magic. She may have been created from Hayate's Linker Core, but now lives as a separate entity.
She uses ice magic on her own during the first battle with Lutecia, Agito and Garyuu.
How about a Unison device being created with a linker core during the original development? And the reason why they fuse better with some masters than others is because their core has to match the output of the one using it (such as Agito and Signum both using fire, and they can unison better than Zest/Agito because Zest's linker core isn't a fire based one)
So, if Fate made a unison device, it would have a lightning element linker core because the one who made her had it. Or Rein is a ice one because Hayate seems to use ice magic as well ( like when she froze the fire)... just guessing, no facts to prove that XD But I do think they have their own core, given from the creator.
....anyway, when is the release date for Vivid, and is there a scanlator already waiting for it? ^^;
One of the popular theories is that Signum is Agito's original master. Though there are a few obvious problems with that theory.
Anyway, Vivid should come out the 26th. With a bit of luck scans will start leaking a few days in advance like they did for Force.
Comartemis
2009-05-20, 11:38
"Obvious problems"? Like what?
Signum being a guardian program. The theory goes that Agito was Signum's Unison Device when Signum was still a human, but that assumes Signum was ever human at all.
spawnofthejudge
2009-05-20, 12:05
Signum being a guardian program. The theory goes that Agito was Signum's Unison Device when Signum was still a human, but that assumes Signum was ever human at all.It's just a combination of theories rather than some sort of evidence against. I thought you had some evidence rather than the fact that even some of the supporting arguments are conjecture themselves ;)
Comartemis
2009-05-20, 12:09
Signum being a guardian program. The theory goes that Agito was Signum's Unison Device when Signum was still a human, but that assumes Signum was ever human at all.
Which isn't exactly the most implausible idea ever presented.
Well, I did say there were 'problems' with the theory, not that the theory was false. :p
So far there is nothing that proves the theory as a definite false. And the series does seem to support the theory as well, with small hints that there is more to it. Zest noted the similarities between Agito and Signum and, though he did not know of Signum's true nature, did theorize that she was Agito's original master.
It's quite possible that Signum was absorbed into the book a-la Fate, and converted into a program to guard it.
View Post
I certainly hope not. She was positively tiny when Hayate was a SS-rank. If her growth parallels Hayate, by now Yagami-chan be the freaking Death Star in a uniform.
Huh? wah? did I missed something? When did Hayate had a massive increase in power?
Comartemis
2009-05-20, 12:32
She didn't, it's just a silly theory that Rein grows in proportion to Hayate's power. Ergo, a massive growth spurt in Rein would indicate a massive growth spurt in Hayate's power level. But Rein's always had the ability to assume a human-sized form (see the Sound Stages) and her size has nothing to do with Hayate's power in any event.
ViVid artist's blog was updated.New character?:p
http://fujima-blog.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2009/05/post-73c9.html
And he said "I'll introduce more 2 new characters tomorrow"
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