Nanoha Manga Discussion [Archive] - Page 63

Dark Wing

2011-01-26, 22:58

Corona's in the same group as Einhart and the reigning champ?

.... Poor thing ;_;
wow she made it to the elite class that pretty impressive well I'll be rooting for her.

Now lets see...

Step 1. A serious of test used to measure where the contestants rank. CLEAR!

Step 2. Once the test are done the contestants are divided into two divisions Novice or Elite. (Most of the Elite being made of past high raking contestants) CLEAR!

We are now entering step 3...

Step 3. The contestants will fight in a serious of elimination matches until there are only 10 remaining in each division making it 20 representatives from all 17 sections of the city.

Groups could be just randomly decided. And it could be that they pit group against group, so you won't fight someone in your group until the semi-finals.

Not exacly true a few chapters back it was explained that your skill levels are tested before your are put into either Elite or Novice class.

mechdra

2011-01-26, 23:20

Hey, two more girls! Seriously, is this like a female-only division? Or are guys in this universe under the impression that tournaments are a girly thing? Maybe most guys are home manning the kitchen instead? Fetching the women sandwhichs and beers while the feminine folk gather around the TV for some Monday Night Mage-bashing?

I believe there are few reasons why there is no guys. First of all, ana many time. The second reason is seeing girls fight is more entertaining than entering the fight. One last thing, guys like to hide the true ability. Showing off your power is just uncool.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 01:03

I believe there are few reasons why there is no guys. First of all, ana many time. The second reason is seeing girls fight is more entertaining than entering the fight. One last thing, guys like to hide the true ability. Showing off your power is just uncool.

I'm more inclined to your third option, probably guys in this setting are genre sawy enugh to let the girls have all the fun while they concentrate on working their skills(for some reason apparently girls have the edge in raw power in this universe while boys needs to work better on their skills and inner potential to achieve an efficient level).

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 01:16

Well, as much genre savy as we think anyone has to be, the Banzai link in my sig is the truth :/

aers

2011-01-27, 01:43

Uh..

Posting this then getting the heck outta the thread.

No offense, but the discussion that happened last time was bad enough.

http://i.imgur.com/pwcd5.png

Laith

2011-01-27, 01:44

Hahahahaha.

Oh wow.

Not getting near here in a while.

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 01:46

Hey, two more girls! Seriously, is this like a female-only division? Or are guys in this universe under the impression that tournaments are a girly thing?

Nah, they're just busy preparing to tape the whole thing :p

Uh..

Posting this then getting the heck outta the thread.

No offense, but the discussion that happened last time was bad enough.

http://i.imgur.com/pwcd5.png

Congratulations Aki, Worfenritter is now official :twitch::twitch:. I'm more disturbed by the fact that I'm not surprised by this turn of event; that's what you get for leaving your artillery piece unescorted...

Which page would that be, anyway? First, middle, or cliffhanger last? And who's the culprit? And why does she look like Isis?

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 01:48

I thought it was nanoha ha there, who the heck is that? also the one attacking has boobs so yeah thats the evil not introduced chick. Thats not vita, too old. What worfenritter? These guys kill. They never faced stone cold killers. hayate's gonna get court martialed

Very epic tho, want more x_x waa it hurts.

Nvis

2011-01-27, 01:50

The woman and Veyron that wiped out Touma's village?

Nanya01

2011-01-27, 01:55

Uh..

Posting this then getting the heck outta the thread.

No offense, but the discussion that happened last time was bad enough.

http://i.imgur.com/pwcd5.png

D...D....Da...daaaammmn... :twitch::twitch::twitch::twitch:

Laith

2011-01-27, 01:58

The woman and Veyron that wiped out Touma's village?

She has the ahoge so it would be a fair assumption.

Also also

So who wanted more screentime for Hayate?

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 02:02

o.o oh... oh... um... maybe i should leave too. that would screw my story up.

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 02:03

Tomino: The Gundam is strong in this one.

also the one attacking has boobs so yeah thats the evil not introduced chick.

Before you pointed it out, I actually thought those were her shoulders :heh:

And where was Zaffy in the middle of all this anyway, wasn't he supposed to be his guardian? Can't even take the bullet this time?

Nanya01

2011-01-27, 02:05

Damn, what is going on in Force?!

Sheesh! At this rate, they're going to kill off the A's cast completely before going for the S1 cast and then the StrikerS cast.

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 02:06

First of all unsaid character is not as strong as signum so this was possible. There is a certain strategy problem here. Funny, when the OCC does this its awesome, but when cannon does, its what?

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 02:10

Congratulations Aki, Worfenritter is now official :twitch::twitch:. I'm more disturbed by the fact that I'm not surprised by this turn of event; that's what you get for leaving your artillery piece unescorted...

I hate when i'm right at things i don't want to be right xDU

To be fair this looks like a surprise attack by a new character.

- I first looked at the katana but just when i'm ready to shout CYPHA YOU BIT-
- ...i noticed that the sword is not black(like cypha's) an the assailants hair doesen match with our blonde favourite psycho murderer, also doesen't match with Veyron or Fortis.
- Deville and arnage are busy and...
- Stella and fortis are commanding the ship

So probably the 7th Huckebein will finally show his face on the scene and much questions will be raised. He'll be the original owner of the Divider used by Veyron? Is she the woman that doomed Tohma's town? Is he/she an Eclipse Driver or a Strosek?

Whoever he/she is one thing is for sure, the surprise backstab on Hayate will probably be done to save the Huckship(i just came out with the name xD) from being blasted into oblivion by Hayate(possibly a Missed Moment of Awesome for Hayate because if said intervention is necessary Heimdall probably indeed DOES have the power to sunk the Huckship).

The only other option that came to mi mind at the moment is that the Huckebein will get their own "Mysterious Protector" in a similar fashion the Wolkenritter get the misterious Masked Guy's help, but i don't think Tsuzuki want to do an obvious copy xDU.

Well, uhm... we still have Vita xD! ... she was notably pissed off when she and Nanoha get to take Signum's bloody pseudo-corpse. When she sees Hayate being backstabbed i expect her to go ballistic xD!

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 02:11

Wouldn't the wolkenritter die if she dies?

and censor yourself up there

aers

2011-01-27, 02:14

She's not dead. Guy who posted the image said "near death".

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 02:16

so we're just putting characters out of commission for the rest of the story, great

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 02:16

Wouldn't the wolkenritter die if she dies?

Calm down, Hayate can't die xDU. unlike Signum Hayate is an VERY important part of the cast(plus the lives of FIVE named characters are linked to hers), she's the complementing part of the powerfull Aces Trio along with Nanoha and Fate, they're destined to become the three new great generals of the TSAB. Also if we're go by the logic that all the Wolkenritter will die along with her that also means that Vita will also dies and GOD knows that people LOVE Vita. So i can rest assured that Hayate will live.

Now, this is leading to some interesting sub-plot potential, what if Hayate in her near death, state is able to reach Signum? You know, helping her to find her to raise again and find togheter the path back to live. I know Tsuzuki has abandoned magic and spiritual concepts but this will be good xD.

aers

2011-01-27, 02:32

In COMPLETELY UNRELATED news I think Nyantype has a Nanoha Force related announcement next month.

<_>

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 02:36

In COMPLETELY UNRELATED news I think Nyantype has a Nanoha Force related announcement next month.

<_>

Huh, wonder what it's gonna be? Manga is almost completed and anime due to be broadcasted on spring, perhaps? (Wishful thinking)

aers

2011-01-27, 02:36

Tsuzuki already doing a Spring anime.

I wasn't upset in the slightest when I found out..nope..

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 02:37

Wonder if they take time to do an anime series with the MOVIE 2nd on production stage. I think an OVA series will be better in order to mantain the good quality.

fukarming

2011-01-27, 03:09

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 03:12

yeah on one hand ballsy writing, on the other, how did they plan on beating those killers exactly? Lets see her goGAR and catch the sworrd to hold her there! Oh man bring on the fanart.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 03:14

yeah on one hand ballsy writing, on the other, how did they plan on beating those killers exactly? Lets see her goGAR and catch the sworrd to hold her there! Oh man bring on the fanart.

Forwards time to shine?

I just wondering what is exactly stopping Caro from go VOLTAIRE on the Hucks? i mean sure, they probably can block his powerful firebeams but they can block a giant fist?

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 03:25

i dunno man. you don't 'off' characters to make the younger ones shines, thats possibly bad writing. you off characters to progress the narative.

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 03:30

Tsuzuki already doing a Spring anime.

I wasn't upset in the slightest when I found out..nope..

Dog Days? What a horrible name, even for what's apparently a Zero no Tsukaima rip-off...

Remember Nanoha blast a SLB even when Shamal take her linker core? Will Hayate do the same here?

This crossed my mind too, but I'm not gonna hope much...

Why on earth would they leave the artillery alone? Isn't Vita is like 5-10 steps ahead of Hayate? btw, where on earth is Zafira? Still babysitting back at home?

*sigh* Right? I know tactics aren't Tsuzuki's strong point, but he's pushing rule of drama to ridiculous levels. COD Black Ops, Halo Reach and many other bloody entertainment medias may have desensitized me from 'It Got Worse' moments, but not from having characters being stupid.

Where's your wingman, Nanoha? Where's your escort, Colonel Hayate?

And how exactly would the forwards shine when only one of then have custom AEC equipment?

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 03:34

thing is with this media they don't have time to account for logic. i mean oin order to make the fight bbetter and account for real strategies. they'd have to show a lot more characters working in unison and then have this happen anyways. ya gotta let it slide. i dunno, maybe they did try to protect her. maybe they got cut too >;3

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 03:36

thing is with this media they don't have time to account for logic. i mean oin order to make the fight better and account for real strategies. they'd have to show a lot more characters working in unison and then have this happen anyways. ya gotta let it slide

I know I know, at least the writer didn't claim that the cast are military geniuses like Le Douche back then. But still...

i dunno, maybe they did try to protect her. maybe they got cut too >;3

Hayate: I got stabbed on the back!
Signum: I got x-slashed and stabbed from the front!
Zafira: I was mutilated into seven pieces...offscreen! In dog form!

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 03:39

Where's your wingman, Nanoha? Where's your escort, [I]Colonel Hayate?

We would need context as always, specially because it's suppossed that Vita and Erio are a few steps away from Hayate, how on earth that lady came so close to her is still a mistery.

[SIZE="1"]
And how exactly would the forwards shine when only one of then have custom AEC equipment?

We only know about Subaru and Erio for now, we still need to know what they have prepared for teana and Caro.

My bet is that this battle will end in Tohma managing to escape and being a lone wolf for some time. the Hucks will retreat to reaorganize their plan now that their absent comrade is back and that will let the heroes to rest, recover and spread the missing upgrades among the cast. Also will give time to develop the supossed "mains" of FORCE a little more(so far Isis is the only one with a true personality, Lily and Tohma are still McGuffin girl and blessed with suck emo boy respectively).

Hope that the Nyantype announce clears the map to a new season(TV Series or OVAs) cotnuing the story by covering the most climatic events while the manga will focus now on the developement of things.

fukarming

2011-01-27, 04:01

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 04:10

Are there character polls for the Nanoha series? Besides Nanoha and Fate, who will quite obvious claim the first and second place, which group is more popular? Wolkenritters or Subaru/ Teana/ Caro/ Erio?

Since Nanoha series is known for unable to kill off characters, I don't expect any of the Wolkenritters to die. (If they have the guts to kill the Wolkenritters, they would have the done in StrikerS, when the Wolkenritters keep repeating that this is their last life and they will really die if they are killed.) So the only reason to let them get hurt is to put them out of actions. So is Subaru's group that much popular than the Wolkenritters? I certainly like the Wolkenritters more. If they are making a spinoff, taking Nanoha and Fate out of the series, I would much prefer to see the Wolkenritters rather than Subaru and company.

It depends on the orignal fanbase i guess, i don't have the right to talk for everyone here but i think the Wolkenritter is more popular with the american fanbase than the forwars(Subaru, teana Erio and Caro) but Japan is the intended market and i don't know how thing go on that place. I think Vita is fairly popular but i remember readed in some place that Signum scored low on japanese character polls, si it's hard oto determine how popular they're in comparission with Subaru and Co.

The other theory is that probably Tsuzuki feels the Wolkenritter is overused by now and plans on give Subaro and co. more time to shine and become more popular(in order to sell more stuff i guess or to exploit Subaru's potential as Hot Blooded mecha heroine). Probably he wants to show off the numbers?(less probably because they already are receiving attention in ViVid).

My last and most optimistical guess is that probably he plans on take the Wolkenritter out of action only to make them do a massive comeback when "The MOVIE 2nd A's" came out on theaters to take advantage of the movie and make the Wolkies return all the more AWESOME! xD. Hope this will be the correct option.

FORCE part 1 is like Nanoha's BLACKEST NIGHT ...Huckebein must need to be prepared when the sun finally arises and came the BRIGHTEST DAY.

EDIT: Page claimed for Blue Lantern Signum (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383) xD.

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 04:37

pretty classic. Just take Dirty pair for instance. Americans like Kei, Japanese like Yuri (original series)

mielipuoli

2011-01-27, 04:38

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 04:41

lol yeah i'd love that just as much as it not being that. i should really be asleep now.

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-27, 05:05

Hoom, hoom, and here I was almost considering to start caring about Force again... Oh well. At this rate, Tsuzuki can start killing off main characters for real, if he pleases. The only thing that will make me start caring about Force again now is Eins' return to the main continuity.

I am guessing he is trying to remove the old overpowered cast from picture for the younger characters to deal with the crisis at hand. The thing is, such things must be quick and painful (first couple of chapters/first episode), rather than drag on for 20 chapters...

Wouldn't the wolkenritter die if she dies?

and censor yourself up there

Quote from A's SS03, track 6: "Hayate: I told you a bit before when we were separating and deleted Reinforce and defense program, everyone's rebirth program won't work anymore. The four knight system right now is running on my life. If I die, you won't be able return to life." And: "Zafira: The aimless endless journey finally ends, we shall remain by our master's side as long as we can, and spend the time left together before seeing our master to the end and then we shall disappear."

Rather unclear whether Hayate's death will automatically off the Wolkies, actually. Also, she seems to imply that she can resurrect them if they die but that won't work if she dies, naturally.

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 06:04

Hm. Thoughts.
I am going to go with the idea of that not really being Hayate, but one of Teana's illusions. Remember that those were good enough to fool the Numbers, and until they realized how stupid her illusions' actions were and then saw her even Fate and Nanoha. With the comment of 'your student is arriving' I am going to HOPE that it's Tia's arrival. She's on this team after all...

...then again, if not, well, Hayate's experienced with wheelchairs.

The first thought might be optimistic, especially considering the tone of the series. But damn, that would actually be awesome...

As for the second one...ouch, how the truth hurts :uhoh:

I am guessing he is trying to remove the old overpowered cast from picture for the younger characters to deal with the crisis at hand. The thing is, such things must be quick and painful (first couple of chapters/first episode), rather than drag on for 20 chapters...

Maybe the should have started this in medias res, with the first pages showing the hospital rooms(graves for the pessimistic) before actually showing how did all went wrong. At least we would know to expect the worst...

Man, it would be nice if the Nyantype announcement turns out to be that the manga will now comes out one-chapter per week...

Sheba

2011-01-27, 06:07

I know I know, at least the writer didn't claim that the cast are military geniuses like Le Douche back then. But still...

I could swear that the A's epilogue state that Hayate knows a bit of tactics or/and strategy. Which was one of the reasons Aaron grew frustrated with how StrikerS treated her.

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 06:30

I could swear that the A's epilogue state that Hayate knows a bit of tactics or/and strategy. Which was one of the reasons Aaron grew frustrated with how StrikerS treated her.

Knowledgeable of it, yes, but not to the point of "OMG her strategy is super-awesome!" like a certain Mary-Tzu(sorry for quoting TVT but I don't know what else to call that type). But yeah, StrikerS did treat her poorly regarding this, and Force didn't make things better...

Justin_Brett

2011-01-27, 09:10

...at least it wasn't Cypha?

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 10:10

I am guessing he is trying to remove the old overpowered cast from picture for the younger characters to deal with the crisis at hand. The thing is, such things must be quick and painful (first couple of chapters/first episode), rather than drag on for 20 chapters...

I also like the theory that the Huckebein(or more specifically this woman) secretly seek to destroyThe master of the Tome of the Night Sky(and it's guardians obviously) in order to accomplish certain goal(after all it's implied that both tomes are related somehow).

...at least it wasn't Cypha?

Nah, unles Cypha feeled the sudden needing to dye her hair in black before going to battle that's definetly not her. But if it helps in something, i also got fooled for a second because of the katana.

Actually i feel more relaxed now, at first i was enraged for Signum to be the sole scapegoat sacrificied for a boost on drama but now that Tsuzuki starts his "Tomino" tendencies over the cast i can enjoy the show without taking it seriously. Something must be wrong with me because when i watched this spoiler i started to laugh, probably because i don't finded other option to deal with the irony of events xDU.

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 10:16

I also like the theory that the Huckebein(or more specifically this woman) secretly seek to destroy The master of the Tome of the Night Sky(and it's guardians obviously) in order to accomplish certain goal(after all it's implied that both tomes are related somehow).

Can you refresh my memory on the implied relation and where was it stated? The attitude of the Hucks seems less of "Look, those are our target" and more of "the nuisance just won't stop!"

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 10:20

Can you refresh my memory on the implied relation and where was it stated? The attitude of the Hucks seems less of "Look, those are our target" and more of "the nuisance just won't stop!"

Probably this is just random tought but we get a clear shot at Rein Eins when the prologue started talking about Ancient Belka and the Book of the Silver Cross. And that girl seems to fe pretty focused on disabling Hayate(ans way more serious at her job than Cypha or Veyron), of course a pic alone can't explain everything and we need to wait until the chapter is released to finally understand the context.

After all, some people here claimed Cypha played "obfuscating evil gloating" in her battle with Signum to hide her true motives.

00-Raiser

2011-01-27, 10:22

As much as I love Hayate I don't really see this as a huge deal. We all know there won't be a fatality (can't put our merchandise for dead characters). I'm not one to get my panties in a bunch just because a character gets hurt.

Seems like a logical, and almost expected turn of events. Cut off the head of the serpent, and what not. Hayate, the commanding officer, was up there out in the open, preparing a big attack, focusing solely on the enemy in front of her. Makes perfect sense that she'd get attacked from behind. It's an effective way for a new antagonist to make her debut.

I've seen far more senseless and rage inducing character deaths/injuries in the past. This is nowhere near those levels.

Also, another example of 'Worfenritter'? Please. Hayate isn't a member of the Wolkenritter.

Laith

2011-01-27, 10:23

Hoom, hoom, and here I was almost considering to start caring about Force again... Oh well. At this rate, Tsuzuki can start killing off main characters for real, if he pleases. The only thing that will make me start caring about Force again now is Eins' return to the main continuity.

I am guessing he is trying to remove the old overpowered cast from picture for the younger characters to deal with the crisis at hand. The thing is, such things must be quick and painful (first couple of chapters/first episode), rather than drag on for 20 chapters...

Doubtful, it probably was played for drama because, hey the huckies are threatening and the like so in case you forgot *stabs Hayate*

Either that or he decided that the only way for Hayate to get screentime was to do that [1]

1. Either that or his trolling the fanbase. That is what I would do at least =D

Edit: She is their mistress Raiser so she counts, i believe.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 10:38

Doubtful, it probably was played for drama because, hey the huckies are threatening and the like so in case you forgot *stabs Hayate*

Kudos to you for mentioning this xD. That's one of the ironic things that provoke me a laugh attack. As soon as the Hucks started with their family antics a lot of people started searching for justifications on their behavior(and even their actions in some cases). I myself almost bite the bait but then Tsuzuki wises up and give us a good advice reminding us that they're villains! ...but not only villains, they're also MURDERERS! Of course, all this circus will be cleared once the chapter is finally released but i still find funny the irony.

Either that or he decided that the only way for Hayate to get screentime was to do that [1]

1. Either that or his trolling the fanbase. That is what I would do at least =D

This guides me trough two differents trains of tought:

- Tsuzuki is having personal problem with a divorce, financial things or simply creativity issues or...

- This is just his way of saying "this is my story, they're my characters, i do as i wish, deal with it" before preparing a sandwich, drank some beer on his favourite couch while watching some sumo wrestling, prearing to sleep, go to bed with a smile and start sleeping like a baby dreaming with the sound of cash xD.

Naturally this is for laughs but i'm still curious at what he's gonna respond during his next interaction with the fanbase(interview, FAQ, etc...).

Edit: She is their mistress Raiser so she counts, i believe.

That and the fact that "Wolkenritter" is a more word playfull name than "Yagami Family" xD.

Laith

2011-01-27, 10:47

Kudos to you for mentioning this xD. That's one of the ironic things that provoke me a laugh attack. As soon as the Hucks started with their family antics a lot of people started searching for justifications on their behavior(and even their actions in some cases). I myself almost bite the bait but then Tsuzuki wises up and give us a good advice reminding us that they're villains! ...but not only villains, they're also MURDERERS! Of course, all this circus will be cleared once the chapter is finally released but i still find funny the irony.

They are villains for a social perspective sure, but really they are normal people that got infected by a virus that forces you to kill people to survive and hey pal better you than me. Also their justification is that "Well we didn´t do MUCH to the TSAB so why are you pursuing us?"

That is why i like them, they are actually grey instead of black, greyer than the other villains but grey nonetheless.

That and the fact that "Wolkenritter" is a more word playfull name than "Yagami Family" xD.

Wolkenritter = Hayate´s playthings family.

00-Raiser

2011-01-27, 10:48

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-27, 10:56

Doubtful, it probably was played for drama because, hey the huckies are threatening and the like so in case you forgot *stabs Hayate*

As if anybody needed that reminder right after Isis nearly got her frigging head chopped off by Deville.

You know what bothers me? The Hucks already got three of the good guys by now and the best Team Hayate could do was chop Cypha's arm off six chapters ago. Isn't it about time they got some successes, too? I am all for a good battle but when one side starts winning too obviously, I am getting bored (and pissed, if it's not the side I'm rooting for).

Nanya01

2011-01-27, 10:57

Of course just because it's sound storywise doesn't mean you have to like/approve of it.

Exactly.

/m/ has the spoiler image up.

First thing said...

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

WHAT DOES THIS AUTHOR HAVE AGAINST THE A'S CAST

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 11:01

It's done for dramatic effect, sure, but it works perfectly in the context of the story. The Huckebein have no problem killing, so when a powerful mage is about to destroy their family, the obvious course of action is to take that mage out. One stab from behind is an effective way to go about this.

So rather than saying how Tsuzuki is messing with us, he's just writing the story as it would go logically. If, say, an attack hit the ship, causing a piece of scrap to fly up and impale Hayate, that would be a senseless, random thing in an obvious attempt to add drama. But here it works.

Of course just because it's sound storywise doesn't mean you have to like/approve of it.

Well, yeah this guys appear to have a pretty pragmatic nature, save for Cypha who is very hammy at times, Vayron also have some of this but Devillle, Fortis and this girl go by the "by all means necessary" route very seriously. So yeah in all practicity it's pretty understandable that this girl pull a Big Damn Villains moment saving the Huckship from the imminent nuking.

Still i really doubt Tsuzuki will really kill Hayate, or at least i think Executive Meddling won't allow him to do it. The "return to the wheelchar" tough, is a plausible method to cash on Hayate's return to "her roots".

00-Raiser

2011-01-27, 11:04

As if anybody needed that reminder right after Isis nearly got her frigging head chopped off by Deville.

You know what bothers me? The Hucks already got three of the good guys by now and the best Team Hayate could do was chop Cypha's arm off six chapters ago. Isn't it about time they got some successes, too? I am all for a good battle but when one side starts winning too obviously, I am getting bored (and pissed, if it's not the side I'm rooting for).

Yeah, I figured this would be an issue. It's certainly disproportionate, but this is how things usually go. The villains don't start getting taken down until near the end of the story. If the heros had a method of taking down the Hucks, that would make all other Hucks weaker by proxy since there's a way of beating them. Once a sure fire method of beating the Eclipse is introduced, then the story is on its last legs and we'll see each Huckebien taken down.

Exactly.

/m/ has the spoiler image up.

First thing said...

Heh, yeah, he hates them so much he's giving them their own movie :rolleyes:

Laith

2011-01-27, 11:04

As if anybody needed that reminder right after Isis nearly got her frigging head chopped off by Deville.

You know what bothers me? The Hucks already got three of the good guys by now and the best Team Hayate could do was chop Cypha's arm off six chapters ago. Isn't it about time they got some successes, too? I am all for a good battle but when one side starts winning too obviously, I am getting bored (and pissed, if it's not the side I'm rooting for).

Considering that Force is sort of a prologue to something else, if the hints that have been dropped are true, then is the darkness before the dawn or something like that. Besides, Nanoha is the one that will get the sucess with Thoma (at least it seems to be that way)

Exactly.

/m/ has the spoiler image up.

First thing said...

Because they are not going to touch Nanoha (Main character) and Fate (Ensemble Darkhorse) so the next in popularity are the Wolkies and Hayate. This is why is effective, they are beloved characters but not at the protagonist role so they are expendable.

Edit: Damnit Raiser, don´t beat me to it!!!

Sheba

2011-01-27, 11:08

Knowledgeable of it, yes, but not to the point of "OMG her strategy is super-awesome!" like a certain Mary-Tzu(sorry for quoting TVT but I don't know what else to call that type).

I am not asking for Lelouch level because it would require the antagonists to act like idiots and we know it IS bad, Yang Wen-Li (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_Galactic_Heroes) level would be too much of a standard to meet. But something like Shikamaru would have been fine, really.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 11:19

Because they are not going to touch Nanoha (Main character) and Fate (Ensemble Darkhorse) so the next in popularity are the Wolkies and Hayate. This is why is effective, they are beloved characters but not at the protagonist role so they are expendable.

Two times in a row? Laith you're on FIRE today xD

Yep, sad but true, the Wolkies are the next on the list of beloved characters and because of that they're next(also what would be a better method to show the Book of the Silver Cross's power than having it's servants beating the living crap out of the only other Ancient Belkan Book's guardians). Vita has biten the dust enough times now and Shamal and Zafira already got offed by the numbers previously so the next on the list was Signum but apparently that isn't enough to believe in the Huck's fearsomeness so they go after Hayate too.

I expect at least a new Vita's Berserk Rampage because of this xD

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 11:25

Seems like a logical, and almost expected turn of events. Cut off the head of the serpent, and what not. Hayate, the commanding officer, was up there out in the open, preparing a big attack, focusing solely on the enemy in front of her. Makes perfect sense that she'd get attacked from behind. It's an effective way for a new antagonist to make her debut.

You see, that's my problem...

The Hucks, for all their hammines and disrespect for the lives of others, are competent. They try to stay away from fighting unnecessary battles, they use sneak attacks, they go for vital targets...

But it was done by making the protagonists act bumbling and careless, just for the sake of drama...

Nanoha flew without a wingman and almost got beheaded just so Fate can have her dramatic princely rescue. Like Sheba I'm not expecting anything exquisite, but a two-man squad was pretty much basic, no? If the only role for Vita that Hayate could think of is to fire the guns on the enemy ship, wouldn't Erio suffice?

And they left Hayate, both a valuable but vulnerable artillery piece and their task force commander, unguarded! Did the ship ran out of marines? I thought Vita was still in the ship? Where was Zaffy in the midst of all this?!

Why must writers have the tendency to make the characters stupid when they want to up the drama? It's like back when I watch Starship Troopers and cheered for the Bugs instead just because their actions were more sensible.

...

Or maybe the others were right, afterall there's still only one pic. Maybe someone actually did tried valiantly to protect Hayate, only to fail. Yeah. That makes more sense. It's far more understandable if that's the case. Fruitless as it may be, perhaps I'll try to keep it optimistic for now...

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 11:31

Patience is the only thing i can recommend, but yeah it will be more stisfying if MC's stopping to act dull in front of their enemies.(C'mon Signum was very cunniong in the past but now she split her strenght in front of a dangerous killer and spent two seconds shocked and still like a statue waiting for Cypha to perform her now famous X-slash on her xDU). But well, i still think things appoint to a sudden stop to this battle and then a bit of time for both sides to reorganize, recover, upgrading, training, etc... I'm waiting for how things will turn out.

Laith

2011-01-27, 11:37

Two times in a row? Laith you're on FIRE today xD

I am THAT awesome.

The Hucks, for all their hammines and disrespect for the lives of others, are competent. They try to stay away from fighting unnecessary battles, they use sneak attacks, they go for vital targets...

Perfect antagonists~

But it was done by making the protagonists act bumbling and careless, just for the sake of drama...

Now let´s discuss this. *Takes off Doylist hat and wears Watsonian hat*

Nanoha flew without a wingman and almost got beheaded just so Fate can have her dramatic princely rescue.

However remember that everytime Nanoha has done something, she has done it alone. In the original, in A´s and in StrikerS, she went alone and she did her befriending thingy and bam everything is good. So hey this time the same is going to happen, and welp no. Also she was overconfident that she could detect any Huckie that got near her. The fact that one of them could teleport didn´t occur to her.

Like Sheba I'm not expecting anything exquisite, but a two-man squad was pretty much basic, no? If the only role for Vita that Hayate could think of is to fire the guns on the enemy ship, wouldn't Erio suffice?

It goes double faster with double the persons? This I have no answer.

And they left Hayate, both a valuable but vulnerable artillery piece and their task force commander, unguarded! Did the ship ran out of marines? I thought Vita was still in the ship? Where was Zaffy in the midst of all this?!

Or maybe the others were right, afterall there's still only one pic. Maybe someone actually did tried valiantly to protect Hayate, only to fail. Yeah. That makes more sense.

Well Arnage/what´shername is free because Isis was taken down so... yeah.

aers

2011-01-27, 11:55

Man you guys are quick with the crackpot theories involving Tsuzuki :rolleyes:

フェイトの前でビルがリアクト。相手が可哀想だなとアルナージはごちる。
あのぺったん胸はどうしたかなと、アルが思い起こしていた頃、アイシスは海面で
ボロボロになりながらもなんとか生存していた。

なのはとトーマは接近戦で斬り合うが当然なのはが劣勢。アルは自分に近づくなというが
泣いている子供の言葉はそのまま受け止めるわけにはいかないとなのは。
そうこうしているうちにフッケバインが転移可能になるまであと1分25秒。なのはとフェイトは
それぞれ必死で相手を引きつける。そしてついにヘイムダルが発動準備完了。
フッケバインの上空に巨大な氷塊が出現する。降伏をすすめるはやてに対し、サイファーが
突っ込んできて氷塊を砕く。だが即座にヘイムダル・ファランクスシフトでフッケバインを
取り囲み、砕かれるより再生が先やと告げる。これが最終警告やといった直後、はやては
背後からきた女に刀で胸を貫かれ崩れ落ちる。

女「んじゃまぁ、術者をやっつければ片がつくと。はい、おつかれー
ていうかちょっとやり過ぎだよ特務のお嬢ちゃん？あんなのもし撃ってたら本気で
殺さなきゃいけないところだった」
現れた女は、フッケバイン一家の首領、カレン・フッケバイン。
即座にヴィータとエリオが攻撃を仕掛けるがあっさりとストライクカノンを二つとも破壊。
刀も同時に折れるが、気にした様子もなく魔導書のページを刃のように飛ばしてヴィータ
たちを翻弄。私のほうで嬉しい報告があるし、引き上げようとメンバーに言う。
トーマは置いていくことになるが、あの子はこんなところじゃ死なないし、きっと私たちの
ところにきてくれるとカレン。
追いすがるフェイトたちを尻目に、戦場を離脱するフッケバインメンバー。
肝心のはやてはというと、絵面のわりにはピンピンしており、むしろ倒れこんだエリオや
ヴィータたちを応急処置していた。
フッケバインの捜索と追跡は本部に任せ、トーマの救出をなのはフェイト、そして出撃
準備が整ったスバルに命令する。

To be continued Record14

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 12:01

Another curious thing i just figured seconds ago:

- Signum got offed in Ch. 7
- Hayate follows her in ch. 13

...7 and 13

OH GOD! BAD LUCK!

Justin_Brett

2011-01-27, 12:02

What happened in chapter 4, then?

And Raiser, I get what you mean, but at a certain point aren't the heroes due a little victory, even if it is a 'dark' story? The only fight that ended in a good guy's win so far was in the FIRST chapter. The story going out of its way to make sure the Hucks win is just as irritating as an invicible group of heroes.

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 12:07

I thought 7 was considered to be good luck? "Lucky Number 7"?

Google translate goes crazy as usual, but I found it funny that one of the result shows 'Fukkebain'! But hey, at least now we know it's Karen.

The Hucks retreated? In their moment of triumph?

...must have watched A New Hope

Regarding Tsuzuki, maybe he just got his attention to another series in the making, and the "new project" boom left little brain energy for anything else...

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 12:12

What happened in chapter 4, then?

Tohma's got his butt almost handed to Veyron, also his "curse" finally awakes.

And Raiser, I get what you mean, but at a certain point aren't the heroes due a little victory, even if it is a 'dark' story? The only fight that ended in a good guy's win so far was in the FIRST chapter.

I've reached the point in that i believe this is a story abotu the Huckebein and the new cast with Nanoha's original cast just as extras, specially because so far none of them have done anything relevant to the story other than serve as a shooting gallery for the villains xDU.

I thought 7 was considered to be good luck? "Lucky Number 7"?

7 is of bad luck in Japan. So we have an oriental Bad Luck number(7) and an occidental one(13). I think it's too obvious to not be done on purpouse xD.

Justin_Brett

2011-01-27, 12:13

I've reached the point in that i believe this is a story abotu the Huckebein and the new cast with Nanoha's original cast just as extras, specially because so far none of them have done anything relevant to the story other than serve as a shooting gallery for the villains xDU.

Speaking of which, does Touma resume being the main character this chapter?

Or even a character?

Keroko

2011-01-27, 12:15

The only thing that bothers me about Hayate getting stabbed is that it reduces her chance if finally getting some decent screentime to "maybe if you wish upon a star" level.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 12:18

Speaking of which, does Touma resume being the main character this chapter?

Or even a character?

Good question, Tsuzuki have treated the Huckebein so well that we can almost assume that they're the villain protagonists of the show with the heroes playing as heroic antagonists xDU

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 12:20

Remember Nanoha blast a SLB even when Shamal take her linker core? Will Hayate do the same here?

Why on earth would they leave the artillery alone? Isn't Vita is like 5-10 steps ahead of Hayate? btw, where on earth is Zafira? Still babysitting back at home?

These are the first things that went through my mind; Hayate was winding up a big spell designed to end things, and you know that Tsuzuki won't let it end with it not being casted.

At any rate, it's one picture, and despite all my questions, I'll have to wait until more context is available. I would have thought they'd detect the approach of anyone new with enough time to be aware of it. At the least, I wonder if this is the "Karen" that the rest of the Hucks were talking about.

Considering that Force is sort of a prologue to something else, if the hints that have been dropped are true

I've seen this repeated before, but with no sources or evidence to back it up. Do you have a source that Force is supposed to be a prologue?

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-27, 12:21

Considering that Force is sort of a prologue to something else, if the hints that have been dropped are true, then is the darkness before the dawn or something like that. Besides, Nanoha is the one that will get the sucess with Thoma (at least it seems to be that way)

"Darkness before the dawn" sounds almost too good to be true at this point... And you can surely imagine my feelings about the notion of "Signum and Hayate got screwed but look, our main heroine got another victory instead!"

Man you guys are quick with the crackpot theories involving Tsuzuki :rolleyes:

フェイトの前でビルがリアクト。相手が可哀想だなとアルナージはごちる。
あのぺったん胸はどうしたかなと、アルが思い起こしていた頃、アイシスは海面で
ボロボロになりながらもなんとか生存していた。

なのはとトーマは接近戦で斬り合うが当然なのはが劣勢。アルは自分に近づくなというが
泣いている子供の言葉はそのまま受け止めるわけにはいかないとなのは。
そうこうしているうちにフッケバインが転移可能になるまであと1分25秒。なのはとフェイトは
それぞれ必死で相手を引きつける。そしてついにヘイムダルが発動準備完了。
フッケバインの上空に巨大な氷塊が出現する。降伏をすすめるはやてに対し、サイファーが
突っ込んできて氷塊を砕く。だが即座にヘイムダル・ファランクスシフトでフッケバインを
取り囲み、砕かれるより再生が先やと告げる。これが最終警告やといった直後、はやては
背後からきた女に刀で胸を貫かれ崩れ落ちる。

女「んじゃまぁ、術者をやっつければ片がつくと。はい、おつかれー
ていうかちょっとやり過ぎだよ特務のお嬢ちゃん？あんなのもし撃ってたら本気で
殺さなきゃいけないところだった」
現れた女は、フッケバイン一家の首領、カレン・フッケバイン。
即座にヴィータとエリオが攻撃を仕掛けるがあっさりとストライクカノンを二つとも破壊。
刀も同時に折れるが、気にした様子もなく魔導書のページを刃のように飛ばしてヴィータ
たちを翻弄。私のほうで嬉しい報告があるし、引き上げようとメンバーに言う。
トーマは置いていくことになるが、あの子はこんなところじゃ死なないし、きっと私たちの
ところにきてくれるとカレン。
追いすがるフェイトたちを尻目に、戦場を離脱するフッケバインメンバー。
肝心のはやてはというと、絵面のわりにはピンピンしており、むしろ倒れこんだエリオや
ヴィータたちを応急処置していた。
フッケバインの捜索と追跡は本部に任せ、トーマの救出をなのはフェイト、そして出撃
準備が整ったスバルに命令する。

To be continued Record14

So the new girl IS Karen, after all. Kinda fitting she would go straight for the enemy leader, too. I do have to wonder how she bypassed Hayate's defenders, however...

And Raiser, I get what you mean, but at a certain point aren't the heroes due a little victory, even if it is a 'dark' story? The only fight that ended in a good guy's win so far was in the FIRST chapter. The story going out of its way to make sure the Hucks win is just as irritating as an invicible group of heroes.

Finally, someone who feels the same way as myself.

Justin_Brett

2011-01-27, 12:24

Good question, Tsuzuki have treated the Huckebein so well that we can almost assume that they're the villain protagonists of the show with the heroes playing as heroic antagonists xDU

Don't even joke about that, dude.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 12:25

And Raiser, I get what you mean, but at a certain point aren't the heroes due a little victory, even if it is a 'dark' story? The only fight that ended in a good guy's win so far was in the FIRST chapter. The story going out of its way to make sure the Hucks win is just as irritating as an invicible group of heroes.

Finally, someone who feels the same way as myself.

Boring Invincible Villains?

Justin_Brett

2011-01-27, 12:27

I've been considering adding that, but I wanted to wait for more evidence.

Laith

2011-01-27, 12:29

I've seen this repeated before, but with no sources or evidence to back it up. Do you have a source that Force is supposed to be a prologue?

Something about being halfway when chapter 9/10 came out i believe, and the announcement of something next month. Of course, I could be wrong because hey, I am just supposing things.

"Darkness before the dawn" sounds almost too good to be true at this point... And you can surely imagine my feelings about the notion of "Signum and Hayate got screwed but look, our main heroine got another victory instead!"

Happiness right? =P

@Justin_Brett, Touma stopped being a protagonist and became something like a macguffin when he went all ~emo~ so that is doubtful. However it seems he gets a couple of panels this month so...

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 12:32

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3457928&postcount=15537 as i mentioned here, its a monthly mag, not a novel. there's a lot of skipped or glossed over elements we'd appreciate if they existed, but given the medium are unnecessary.

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 12:41

Gentlemen, welcome to war. It isn't pretty, and it isn't always one-sided. Sometimes things go badly for one side, and sometimes they don't. It's still a bit too early to be whinging about it, however.

Real fights are nasty. The anime was too clean in this regard; witness the movie manga Nanoha/Fate fight vs. the one in the movie and S1.

Karen was mentioned several times before, so it was set up that there was at least one more Huck out there. The scientists(and whatever group they are working for) were set up before, and I keep expecting them to show up again. The Hucks are legitimate threat, a dangerous one. Frankly, if the heroes got away with scratches and bruises and triumphed in 75% of their encounters, I'd be calling them lame.

Something about being halfway when chapter 9/10 came out i believe, and the announcement of something next month. Of course, I could be wrong because hey, I am just supposing things.

I didn't see anything like that. But yeah, we'll just have to wait and see. Considering the only animated announcement is for a movie that is a year or two away at least, we probably would have heard something on another front. And considering Vivid, with it's tournament, could potentially end up being much longer, I have a feel Force could end up going just as long as well.

Remember the name of this manga: Magical War Chronicle Lyrical Nanoha Force

If it ended with this confrontation, then it wouldn't be so much a war, as a battle.

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-27, 12:54

Happiness right? =P

Can't you see? I am oozing joy from every orifice. %)

Gentlemen, welcome to war. It isn't pretty, and it isn't always one-sided. Sometimes things go badly for one side, and sometimes they don't. It's still a bit too early to be whinging about it, however.

Real fights are nasty. The anime was too clean in this regard; witness the movie manga Nanoha/Fate fight vs. the one in the movie and S1.

Next thing we know, BetrayerS get declared an official AU. :uhoh:

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 12:57

Gonna say, they should resort to writing good novels. Its outgrowing its medium at this rate. How many early adopters are sticking with this? This fandom is rather incredible really.

Keroko

2011-01-27, 13:06

'course, the downside of novels is that they hardly ever get translated, and if it already takes months to translate a single chapter of a manga...

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 13:08

o.o Yeah, but we're strong as a community, right?

Nanya01

2011-01-27, 13:14

o.o Yeah, but we're strong as a community, right?

Wouldn't matter.

That novel set in the first season hasn't been translated yet, has it?

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 13:15

Well, let's get a wiki going like haruhi

NorthernFallout

2011-01-27, 13:27

So much BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW from a single pic, I dunno wat even-

Real villains. Who would have thought! But it's not like anyone is gonna die. Killing a main? Oh gods now. That would be horrible! Not.

Respect +10 if it happened.

Justin_Brett

2011-01-27, 13:27

Gentlemen, welcome to war. It isn't pretty, and it isn't always one-sided. Sometimes things go badly for one side, and sometimes they don't. It's still a bit too early to be whinging about it, however.

Real fights are nasty. The anime was too clean in this regard; witness the movie manga Nanoha/Fate fight vs. the one in the movie and S1.

Karen was mentioned several times before, so it was set up that there was at least one more Huck out there. The scientists(and whatever group they are working for) were set up before, and I keep expecting them to show up again. The Hucks are legitimate threat, a dangerous one. Frankly, if the heroes got away with scratches and bruises and triumphed in 75% of their encounters, I'd be calling them lame.

I didn't see anything like that. But yeah, we'll just have to wait and see. Considering the only animated announcement is for a movie that is a year or two away at least, we probably would have heard something on another front. And considering Vivid, with it's tournament, could potentially end up being much longer, I have a feel Force could end up going just as long as well.

Remember the name of this manga: Magical War Chronicle Lyrical Nanoha Force

If it ended with this confrontation, then it wouldn't be so much a war, as a battle.

But...it has been one-sided. For 13 chapters. Your story had several victories for Nanoha, if not the resistance in that amount of time.

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 13:30

Novel form seems more concise, but when transitioned to comic form it becomes much less concise. I thought this was without saying.

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 13:42

But...it has been one-sided. For 13 chapters. Your story had several victories for Nanoha, if not the resistance in that amount of time.

Not quite. They successfully damaged the Hucks ship and boarded it, fighting the Hucks on even terms. They retrieved Isis and Lily. So far, they've managed to engage Thoma first, and keep the Hucks at bay.

So I see a series of half-victories and ties along withe major losses of Signum and now Hayate. And we still don't know the context of that picture; for all we know it could be an illusion generated by Teana, or Hayate could be healed up from it, or be expecting it. I'm still a bit doubtful that someone could get so close to Hayate without being spotted.

I had Nanoha get stabbed deliberately in Crisis, so she could arrest the movement of a quick adversary and finish him. Something similar could be going on here.

And I've read translations of the "To Aru Majutsu No Index" light novel, so it has been done. The translations aren't exactly stellar English, but it's not bad and allows you to know what's going on. Personally, given the way light novels are written, it's almost like a manga except with no pictures. Thus, I prefer the manga format.

Sheba

2011-01-27, 13:48

Gentlemen, welcome to war. It isn't pretty, and it isn't always one-sided. Sometimes things go badly for one side, and sometimes they don't. It's still a bit too early to be whinging about it, however.

Real fights are nasty. The anime was too clean in this regard; witness the movie manga Nanoha/Fate fight vs. the one in the movie and S1.

Karen was mentioned several times before, so it was set up that there was at least one more Huck out there. The scientists(and whatever group they are working for) were set up before, and I keep expecting them to show up again. The Hucks are legitimate threat, a dangerous one. Frankly, if the heroes got away with scratches and bruises and triumphed in 75% of their encounters, I'd be calling them lame.

Remember the name of this manga: Magical War Chronicle Lyrical Nanoha Force

If it ended with this confrontation, then it wouldn't be so much a war, as a battle.

I would believe the war part when they'll have the balls to show as much bloodshed and misery as in Legend of Galactic Heroes or scenes like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUox_hQAih8).

For now, compared to aforementioned works, war as shown in Nanoha is only comparable to run-of-the-mill shounen. Hurry up Nanoha, Madoka Magika is one upping you in the blood and visual violence, with the impact it can have on the characters, department.

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 13:50

Except it's not one on one, they keep shifting as a team. Half court basketball with katanas and beam spam!

Well, should I ever get to writing, I use the Force story as a distraction from more important events crawling in the background :3

I mean when you have a group going around killing mages, you blame them for all of the mage deaths, right? I dunno, us writers gotta fill the twinkie with cream sometimes. mmm fried twinkie

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 13:51

For a story like FORCE a novel format seems to be more adequate to tell things in detail(and oh buy! it needs to explain things xDU). Much context is lost with the peacing the chapters are having. On the other side it's also true that novels are waaaay slower than manga and if even at a chapter per month we're losing our heads well i think it's a mixed bag xDU.

The problem is that the Huckebein already proved the the level of threath they represents and still are winning, a normal villain will start struggling to achieve victory once presentation stage is over ...or probably we'll still on presentation stage(Karen just recently showed up after all and Deville isn't go "full armor" yet). Things will probably change soon because Subaru apparently will be a very important character of this story but for now it doesen't feel like a Nanoha story. The orignal Nanoha cast feels almost like "guest characters" xDU.

aers

2011-01-27, 13:52

Heh, Nyantype's "next month" preview is apparently also ONCE AGAIN saying "Nanoha/Fate participate in the battle for real".

I think they just throw that line in there every month for no reason at this point.

Unless what happened to Hayate results in some true limit breaking.. pissed off Nanoha round 2.

Also, with regards to an English translation of the season 1 light novel, is there even a Japanese transcription available?

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 13:56

Unless what happened to Hayate results in some true limit breaking.. pissed off Nanoha round 2.

heh, most likely.

They near kills Signum, a battlefield comrade and make them unbcomfortable, the stab Hayate and that CAN'T BE FORGIVEN!

Heads are gonna roll xD

Rising Dragon

2011-01-27, 14:07

The real problem with translating novels involving anime and the like is copyright issues--such as Shakugan no Shana. The translators working on that novel series were threatened with legal action if they didn't stop translating the novels. And then they only released two officially translated novels before scrapping the project.

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 14:12

Yeah, we need a more modern cheap solution. Buy ebooks or something.

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 14:12

I would believe the war part when they'll have the balls to show as much bloodshed and misery as in Legend of Galactic Heroes or scenes like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUox_hQAih8).

Maybe they still will. They've already brutalized Signum and now stabbed Hayate (not to mention what they did to Isis). A nice young boy has been inflicted with a disease that makes him kill and thus made him want to go off to die, and if you think he's emo now, just wait until he does kill someone. Lily blew some people up already.

I personally believe we're just getting started on this. If it ends after this battle is resolved, then you'd have a point. But we'll see. We've already had a couple villages full of people slaughtered, with it being implied the Huck's are responsible for many more deaths.

I'm guessing this battle will end in a partial draw somehow, with neither a win nor a loss for either side. Instead, they'll pull back and lick their wounds, there will be more death and destruction to come. After all, we all know Signum is going to get back in the action, and now Hayate will have to recover and come back to kick some ass.

The real problem with translating novels involving anime and the like is copyright issues--such as Shakugan no Shana. The translators working on that novel series was threatened with legal action if they didn't stop translating the novels. And then they only released two officially translated novels before scrapping the project.

It's real easy to get around this, though. Just release the translations anonymously via torrent, or create wiki-like a website in a country where it's unlikely copyright owners could do anything, and let people anonymously upload translated sections. If threatened, just say "You have no proof we did it." They don't. And all this presumes that 7arcs would go after light novel translators. Obviously, no one did for the Index Light novels.

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 14:16

Eh, she'll be back in a wheel chair giving orders from the desk. Even more gendo like. Man what a general she'll become.

aers

2011-01-27, 14:17

The real problem with translating novels involving anime and the like is copyright issues--such as Shakugan no Shana. The translators working on that novel series was threatened with legal action if they didn't stop translating the novels. And then they only released two officially translated novels before scrapping the project.

It's got just as many legal issues as subbing anime, and you don't see anyone stopping that, do you? :p

Nanya01

2011-01-27, 14:21

It's got just as many legal issues as subbing anime, and you don't see anyone stopping that, do you? :p

*Points to the Anti-Scanlation group*

Uh... Yeah, no one stopping it.

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 14:22

Well, we do see that. Funimation just sued 1337 jon does (over one piece streaming/illegal eps) and the fools at studio whatever pulled simulcast streaming of fractale citing ilegals rips.

IT MAKES NO SENSE

like removing the legal option will make people rip it illegally less....

so tangental, carry on

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-27, 14:31

Eh, she'll be back in a wheel chair giving orders from the desk. Even more gendo like. Man what a general she'll become.

Do not want.

You know, people here keep saying things like "when Signum/Isis/Hayate returns, she is sooo gonna kick some ass", but the more I read Force, the closer I arrive to the conclusion that the manga will not be able to pull of a comeback containing enough of pure, undiluted awesomess to compensate for the abuse said characters went through already. Just my personal opinion, though...

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 14:34

Eh, more like not enough time for it. That's just me. Animating whatever helps tho.

Justin_Brett

2011-01-27, 14:36

Not quite. They successfully damaged the Hucks ship and boarded it, fighting the Hucks on even terms. They retrieved Isis and Lily. So far, they've managed to engage Thoma first, and keep the Hucks at bay.

So I see a series of half-victories and ties along withe major losses of Signum and now Hayate. And we still don't know the context of that picture; for all we know it could be an illusion generated by Teana, or Hayate could be healed up from it, or be expecting it. I'm still a bit doubtful that someone could get so close to Hayate without being spotted.

I had Nanoha get stabbed deliberately in Crisis, so she could arrest the movement of a quick adversary and finish him. Something similar could be going on here.

And I've read translations of the "To Aru Majutsu No Index" light novel, so it has been done. The translations aren't exactly stellar English, but it's not bad and allows you to know what's going on. Personally, given the way light novels are written, it's almost like a manga except with no pictures. Thus, I prefer the manga format.

I was talking about Future Tense, which is probably far darker than anything Force has to offer if murder and violence is all it brings to the table (to the part where Karen makes her debut doing some).

And I dunno about even terms; Deville just almost killed Nanoha, and you could make a good case that the Hucks on the ship were just playing around; maybe the others can do something similar to his armor react. And they didn't even know Isis, Lily or Touma were even on the ship at first. Hayate just got stabbed trying to do the one thing she came after them for.

Rising Dragon

2011-01-27, 14:39

It's real easy to get around this, though. Just release the translations anonymously via torrent, or create wiki-like a website in a country where it's unlikely copyright owners could do anything, and let people anonymously upload translated sections. If threatened, just say "You have no proof we did it." They don't. And all this presumes that 7arcs would go after light novel translators. Obviously, no one did for the Index Light novels.

Well, yeah, torrents would work, but the scanlator group already used the wiki solution and got threatened anyway, official cease and desist letter and everything.

It's got just as many legal issues as subbing anime, and you don't see anyone stopping that, do you? :p

Well yes, but subbing is far more widespread, and at least a great deal of anime gets officially subbed and released...

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 14:44

or go old school and release it via cost of supplies and mail order :3

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 14:55

I was talking about Future Tense, which is probably far darker than anything Force has to offer if murder and violence is all it brings to the table (to the part where Karen makes her debut doing some).

And I dunno about even terms; Deville just almost killed Nanoha, and you could make a good case that the Hucks on the ship were just playing around; maybe the others can do something similar to his armor react. And they didn't even know Isis, Lily or Touma were even on the ship at first. Hayate just got stabbed trying to do the one thing she came after them for.

My point is that the idea of Victories/Losses isn't quite so clear cut.

And Nanoha has been kinda dark all along; Fate got whipped and abused in S1, Hayate saw her entire family killed in front of her eyes (and lost Reinforce), and StrikerS saw a child torn from her mother and tortured, while one sister saw the other kidnapped in a near-deathly state.

As for scans and translations and stuff, being threatened is one thing. It's very easy to threaten someone, but it's much less likely to be taken to court, let alone prove something. The internet's greatest asset is it's anonymity, provided you know how to use it. If I got a DMCA notice or C&D, I'd pretty much ignore it. I'd proxy and anonymize my uploads, and make sure my computer was clean of material (ie, delete, defrag, and run utilities to make so no deleted material could be found).

In fact, this is an open offer to any translator, that I'll upload anything to anywhere and thereby remove any suspicion from them. =)

Nanya01

2011-01-27, 15:01

You're never as anonymous as you think on the internet.

ISP trace.

How do you think people on 4chan get caught when they brag about what they do?

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 15:05

..... they brag? Anonymous should not brag

Just too much trouble, these john doe cases are not doing well in the courts

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 15:23

^ This.

Don't brag, and you can easily remain anonymous. Proxies, virtual networks, sneakernet, darknets... there are many ways to hide your IP address if you really want to.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 16:13

Do not want.

You know, people here keep saying things like "when Signum/Isis/Hayate returns, she is sooo gonna kick some ass", but the more I read Force, the closer I arrive to the conclusion that the manga will not be able to pull of a comeback containing enough of pure, undiluted awesomess to compensate for the abuse said characters went through already. Just my personal opinion, though...

That was my feeling since the day i see Signum's flesh being open and having a look at her blood for the first time in my life. For characters who spent around two seasons forming themselves and creating a position among the fandom, then being so easily stripped from all of it in just one chapter. I know it's hard to believe that only over the course of a few pages that can be restored. The good news is that Hayate's incident finaly me realize that i'm not need to take this Tsuzuki guy seriously, so just enjoy the show and remeber your favourite character for the good and awesome things they do, not for the bad ones.

To be fair FORCE is not THAT bad as a story(at least no that bad as i inteded make it look before xDU) ...if you manage to ignore that you're watching a Nanoha season. As a standalone story of Tohma and the Huckebein it works just fine. It's messing with our heads and the things we know about the franchise what makes difficult to sit and enjoy reading this thing. Probably it's better to do as Kaijo advised to do with The MOVIE 1st: to read FORCE not from the view of a veteran Nanoha fan but from the viewpoint of a newcomer. I think people new to the franchise isn't as shocked as me when they saw Signum's fall nor when they gonna see what happens to Hayate.

Whatever the announce ends up being i hope it's related with anything that can offer a more expanded view on the story. I expect nothing less than a special Chapter to re-introduce Hayate or Signum ...or both into action ...or to get their return delayed for an espectacular comeback in anime(TV/OVA) format. Meanwhile, i have Deville ....Go Teleport Bruiser xD!

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-27, 16:21

To be fair FORCE is not THAT bad as a story(at least no that bad as i inteded make to look before xDU) ...if you manage ignore that you're watching a Nanoha season. As a standalone story of Tohma and the Huckebein it works just fine. It's messing with our heads and the things we know about the franchise what makes difficult to sit and ejoy reading this thing. Probably it's better to do as Kaijo advised to do with The MOVIE 1st: to read FORCE not from the view of a veteran Nanoha fan but from the viewpoint of a newcomer. I think people new to the franchise isn't as shocked as me when they saw Signum's fall nor when they gonna see what happens to Hayate.

That's a sound advice but unfortunately, I don't have a switch in my head labeled "Forget everything you knew about Nanoha series". And I don't think anyone here does...

Justin_Brett

2011-01-27, 16:23

My point is that the idea of Victories/Losses isn't quite so clear cut.

And Nanoha has been kinda dark all along; Fate got whipped and abused in S1, Hayate saw her entire family killed in front of her eyes (and lost Reinforce), and StrikerS saw a child torn from her mother and tortured, while one sister saw the other kidnapped in a near-deathly state.

As for scans and translations and stuff, being threatened is one thing. It's very easy to threaten someone, but it's much less likely to be taken to court, let alone prove something. The internet's greatest asset is it's anonymity, provided you know how to use it. If I got a DMCA notice or C&D, I'd pretty much ignore it. I'd proxy and anonymize my uploads, and make sure my computer was clean of material (ie, delete, defrag, and run utilities to make so no deleted material could be found).

In fact, this is an open offer to any translator, that I'll upload anything to anywhere and thereby remove any suspicion from them. =)

Yeah, but those instances were effectively dramatic because they didn't just have straight-up murder. The Hucks are probably the most boring 'dark' villains I've ever seen; an emotional assault is easily more intimidating than just stabbing people, but they've done nothing to imply that isn't all they CAN do.

Demi.

2011-01-27, 16:27

Spoiler images of the new Vivid in this link.
http://ivory.ap.teacup.com/nagaharuhenyo2/2289.html

And an image which forced me to buy this magazine post-haste.

Nanya01

2011-01-27, 16:30

Spoiler images of the new Vivid in this link.
http://ivory.ap.teacup.com/nagaharuhenyo2/2289.html

And an image which forced me to buy this magazine post-haste.

Please tell me that it's the training image.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 16:36

Spoiler images of the new Vivid in this link.
http://ivory.ap.teacup.com/nagaharuhenyo2/2289.html

And an image which forced me to buy this magazine post-haste.

Finall! a blew of fresh air xD!

Zaffy is back! and he talks!(i'm the only want who at least contemplet briefly the idea of a Zafira x Nove pairing xD?).

Apparently the girls started ther torunament preliminary activities(with Miura and Viviobeing happy at being classified togheter xD).

But the most amusing(if not outright shocking) part of this spoiler ....are those two Arisa and Suzuka o.O!?

YEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Demi.

2011-01-27, 16:37

Please tell me that it's the training image.

lol, in-fact it is not!

Nanya01

2011-01-27, 16:43

lol, in-fact it is not!

Well, I give up, what pic?

Fate and Einhart in kimonos?

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 16:44

Probably you're refering to the Suzuka pic xD?

Demi.

2011-01-27, 16:49

Well, I give up, what pic?

Fate and Einhart in kimonos?

Sarcasm? Well, I'll take the bait. Yes, that one.

Nanya01

2011-01-27, 16:50

Sarcasm? Well, I'll take the bait. Yes, that one.

Ah.

That's a cute one too.

I was more distracted by Fate, Vivio and Nanoha in training outfits though.

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 16:53

Probably it's better to do as Kaijo advised to do with The MOVIE 1st: to read FORCE not from the view of a veteran Nanoha fan but from the viewpoint of a newcomer.

Not quite what I said, heh. I mainly wanted to say that the Nanoha movie worked better from the viewpoint of a person familiar with the series; it didn't work for someone new.

But for Force, I can still see Nanoha in it. There's nothing too new, other than it feels like the censorship veil has been mostly lifted (nipples and blood, oh my!). What you're seeing in Force, is what you would have seen in the anime seasons if it had been allowed. Possibly because Nanoha was aired on TV. The movie actually shows nipples and blood.

Yeah, but those instances were effectively dramatic because they didn't just have straight-up murder. The Hucks are probably the most boring 'dark' villains I've ever seen; an emotional assault is easily more intimidating than just stabbing people, but they've done nothing to imply that isn't all they CAN do.

If you endlessly tease of death, but never take the steps, your audience will eventually figure it out. We've had actual death, mass death, and severe injury of our heroes, which hasn't happened before. It does put the whole risk thing back into play. Regardless of whether you find the Huck's boring or not, you have to at least agree that the risk is there. You can tell easily from a lot of people here wondering if Signum was gonna live, and now Hayate.

Spoiler images of the new Vivid in this link.
http://ivory.ap.teacup.com/nagaharuhenyo2/2289.html

And an image which forced me to buy this magazine post-haste.

A lot of talking, and Vivio fights against someone, most likely winning. Did someone tell Shiny about all the human-form Zafira pictures? Heh.

But the most amusing(if not outright shocking) part of this spoiler ....are those two Arisa and Suzuka o.O!?

Referring to the last picture? I admit, it's hard to tell, since we don't exactly have many pictures of them full grown. It's probably Megane, I think, since Lutecia is competing.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 17:38

But for Force, I can still see Nanoha in it. There's nothing too new, other than it feels like the censorship veil has been mostly lifted (nipples and blood, oh my!). What you're seeing in Force, is what you would have seen in the anime seasons if it had been allowed. Possibly because Nanoha was aired on TV. The movie actually shows nipples and blood.

Still the MOVIE 1st isn't even near to the level of violence FORCE is showing, still i'm not talking about violence, i'm talking about the plot itself, never on the past the villans haved so much high ground over the heroes(even Scaglietti falls short in front of these guys), they have so much screentime, so much advantage and so much "attention" that they feel almost like the true protagonists of the story. Ok we already haved a similar concept with Hayate and the Wolkenritter in that regard, but even then the plot manage to affirm to us that Nanoha and Fate are the main characters and that they still will save the day at the end of the story somehow(it was also of great help that the Wolkies turned out to be such sympathetic guys in first place, if not for that, Nanoha and Fate could have ended just like Signum right on their first battle on A's).

The story probably still incorporate some classic Nanoha elements but Nanoah's old cast istelf doesn't feel as attached to said elements as before, the constant speeches the Huckebein said abouth them make Hayate's group looking almost like the evil guys. That's not a bad thing, the Hucks motives are well explained and they see the TSAB as a menace because it interfers with their chances of surviving ...or so that's what i understand about them. The bad thing is that the reader practically don't get other focus on the story aside of their's, Hayate's group started well but right after Veyron's first apparition the focus of the story gets shifted to the Huckebein nearly all the time, we only get to see a slight glimpse at Section Six viewpoint of things, making it feel almost uniportant in comparission with the Huck's point of view.

Like already posted, it's not that bad of a story, but i must have to become unsensible about the old Nanoha cast in order to catch the appealing points of this manga. I will acknowledge their existence again once they receive a proper standpoint in this conflict other than being the Huckebein's constant nuisance xDU.

"Section Six is blasting off agaaaaaaaaiiiiinnn....."

00-Raiser

2011-01-27, 18:23

Phew, so much I'm not sure I can reply to everything...

Well, I think it's key to remember that this is special force 6's first battle with the Huckebein. It's been a long battle with several parts to it, but it's still all been the same fight. The over all winner of this fight hasn't been decided yet so it's too soon to be complaining about how the good guys keep losing.

And again, it's unlikely there'll be any good guy fatalities. Tsuzuki doesn't have the balls to pair them off, so you really think he'd have the balls to kill them off? He's always been careful of potential fan backlash since Nanoha is 7 Arc's only cash cow. Killing people off is a great way to lose fans and thus profit.

In regards to novel translations, C&Ds typically only go out to novels that are lisenced. Shana was used as an example, but those books were lisenced. The group translating Haruhi also stopped when those books started coming out here. The group still has many other novel projects on their web page that remain active.

Novel fan translations can work out depending on the group. I've read the Oreimo and Haruhi novels out in english and they read just fine. So if some one wanted to tackle the Nanoha novels, I say go for it.

About those blog pics, yes, that's Alisa and Suzuka, however they appear in what seems to be some sort of one shot story that deals with Hayate shrinking or something.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 18:51

Well, I think it's key to remember that this is special force 6's first battle with the Huckebein. It's been a long battle with several parts to it, but it's still all been the same fight. The over all winner of this fight hasn't been decided yet so it's too soon to be complaining about how the good guys keep losing.

That's the disadvantage of having a chapter per month. Still hope this first round comes to an end soon, this is starting to feel like Goku VS Friezza on Namek xDU. there's so much things to explain and exploit and all of that is only waiting up for this fight to finally end. Still it probably will takebetween 2 and 4 more chapters(you know hayate impaled, heroes shocked, Vita furious, etc...) so i will be waiting for the June issue(right after my birdthday and an exact year after Signum's trashing) to see if things finally starts to move.

I don't talk much about the novels because i don't know much about the topic.

About those blog pics, yes, that's Alisa and Suzuka, however they appear in what seems to be some sort of one shot story that deals with Hayate shrinking or something.

Still glad to finally see Arisa and Suzuka(specially Arisa *-*) in the ViVid era xD.

EDIT:

So if some one wanted to tackle the Nanoha novels, I say go for it.

So, it's true that a Nanoha novel settled on S1 actually exist?

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 18:58

So, it's true that a Nanoha novel settled on S1 actually exist?

Yep. Pretty much follows the series, though. Except there's a Nanoha/Fate fight at the end, that I believe it's implied that Fate might have won. Not too sure.

00-Raiser

2011-01-27, 19:11

Apparently it's turns like the way the Movie 1st manga did.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 19:26

So, there's a possiblity that the MOVIE 1st manga was a re-telling of the story taking the S1 Light Novel as a basis?

...whoah, talking about Epileptic Trees xD!

Amaterasu1963

2011-01-27, 19:40

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 19:45

According to the above summary Vita and Erio did fight Karen. She sliced through their strike cannons in one slash. They will be joining Hayate in the hospital.

Feel better?

Actually yes xD!

Well, this Karen girl must be one of the top Huckebeins, Erio managed to parry Deville with his Strike Cannon before(getting damaged but still able to stop the attack) but this katana-wialding menace is able to slay TWO of them.

The Yagami Family is starting to fall pretty quickly, now there's only Shamal and Zafira left xDU.

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 19:54

Thread moved way too fast.

According to the above summary Vita and Erio did fight Karen. She sliced through their strike cannons in one slash. They will be joining Hayate in the hospital.

Feel better?

Makes much more sense.

My new thoughts are that Nanoha gets through to Touma, slapping him around to bring him back to reality. He sees what's going on, what happened to Isis, and goes nuts on Karen and the other Hucks, forcing them to withdraw.

Given their injuries thus far, Section Six withdraws as well.

Meanwhile, in a secret location...

"You see? Not even Section Six, the Bureau's finest, could stand up against our little group. There's much potential here... if the price is right."

"Interesting. Perhaps we should talk..."

Vivid previews are nice though; looks like their training pays off and Vivio gets an easy victory in her first match.

Pretty much what I expected. I'm actually more eager to see Rio and Corona fight, though, heh.

Tiresias

2011-01-27, 20:02

Remember the name of this manga: Magical War Chronicle Lyrical Nanoha Force

I'll believe that when the heroes start to draw a line between brave and reckless and act like a proper military. Until then, it's just shounen.

According to the above summary Vita and Erio did fight Karen. She sliced through their strike cannons in one slash. They will be joining Hayate in the hospital.

Feel better?

Actually...

Or maybe the others were right, afterall there's still only one pic. Maybe someone actually did tried valiantly to protect Hayate, only to fail. Yeah. That makes more sense. It's far more understandable if that's the case. Fruitless as it may be, perhaps I'll try to keep it optimistic for now...

Yes! Sometimes optimism does work! :heh: Though it still doesn't answer the question on where the heck is Zaffy in all of this?

Spoiler images of the new Vivid in this link.
http://ivory.ap.teacup.com/nagaharuhenyo2/2289.html

And an image which forced me to buy this magazine post-haste.

Oh hey Prisma Illya!

Oh, a school festival chapter. Still no fighting yet?

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 20:02

this just raises me the question. If Hayate's down who will take command of Section Six? Who follows her in the chain of command?

Meanwhile, in a secret location...

"You see? Not even Section Six, the Bureau's finest, could stand up against our little group. There's much potential here... if the price is right."

"Interesting. Perhaps we should talk..."

Things will look pretty grim for our heroes because a series of factors respresented by his incapability of fight the Huckebein:

- They're the TSAB's finest and fail, this will be a huge blow and a real threat to TSAB's supremacy.
- Probably they will attempt to press things into using full force against the Huckebein, while Section Six's new commander try to regain the trust of the TSAB to avoid a full scale war, or....
- The TSAB take advantage of Hayate's fall to send one of their own people as the new commander of Section Six in order to control Nanoha's team actions to their benefit.

Meanwhile, Tohma probably will get some heroic resolve and starts trying to control his doomed powers in order to finish this mess once and for all while the Huckebein starts reorganizing the plan to capture him.

Pretty much what I expected. I'm actually more eager to see Rio and Corona fight, though, heh.

I want to see Miura-chan in action *-*

EDIT:

Oh, a school festival chapter. Still no fighting yet?

I tought it was the preliminaries xDU

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 20:15

I'll believe that when the heroes start to draw a line between brave and reckless and act like a proper military. Until then, it's just shounen.

They did try the standard military thing. The Hucks laughed at them.

Hayate has probably been allowed to reform Section Six to try more unothodox tactics, gambling that a few well-equipped and well-trained mages can deal with the problem.

It could have some interesting implications down the road if they fail.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-27, 20:23

Well, Kaijo has a point, the battle has not ended Yet, we still need to see Nanoha's new super awesome finishing move xD. If they manage to keep tohma or at least to make the huckebein not capture him, the TSAB probably won't be so hard on them, still i'm smelling someone with Regious-like train of tought to appear and laugh at Section six saying something among the lines off "the TSAB's praised mages have failed to respond to this menace, it's time for the Ground Forces to take into action" or somethinglike that.

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 21:08

Or the Navy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q

Iromaru

2011-01-27, 23:28

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 23:33

Yeah, expecting too much from this. Signum was a mistake? Hayate was awesome enough to survive? The other two were only meant to be disabled to make sure Hayate got hit? Meh the games we must play.

Its not said a confirmed kill is what they need, its just easier sometimes.

Kaijo

2011-01-27, 23:56

So some incredibly strong Haxbein managed to get to Hayate and stab her, then proceeded to defeat Vita and Erio yet (of course) nobody died?

You are telling me a professional killer who kill to live left 3 enemies, and dangerous enemies on top of that alive for no reason?

As much as I like Hayate and wolkies that's beyond retarded.

Or you're underestimating Mid-Childa medical technology and magic.

Karen, in her rush to drop the leader, Hayate, merely knocked Erio and Vita out of the way, unable to spare the time to actually kill them. Hayate getting stabbed like that is no big deal; we can save people from that kind of injury with our primitive medical technology.

The better move would have been to slice Hayate in half.

Hey, maybe the bad guys aren't as good or as smart as we think!

00-Raiser

2011-01-27, 23:57

Well, in the first place the Huckies just want to escape, so incapacitating their enemies enough so they can get away is probably fine enough for them. Use the time it would take to finish them off for escaping.

itanshi1

2011-01-27, 23:57

Sure looks like a heart stab. They don't give her a chance to twist it, eh?

00-Raiser

2011-01-27, 23:59

Sure looks like a heart stab. They don't give her a chance to twist it, eh?

Nah, it's coming out through her mid chest area. The heart isn't dead center, it's usually on the left.

Nanya01

2011-01-28, 00:06

Nah, it's coming out through her mid chest area. The heart isn't dead center, it's usually on the left.

Actually...

Anatomically, the human heart is located in the bottom center of the chest cavity, yet everything from vampire flicks to firing-range targets depict it as being in the upper left quadrant, merely because the heartbeat is louder in that location. (The heart's left side is stronger than the right, and projects its sound upward with the aortic blood flow.) Even doctors get looked at funny if they try to center their hands over their actual hearts during the national anthem, as opposed to centering the hand over the left lung as most people do and letting the heel of the hand end up closer to the actual position.

From here. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/main/RealityIsUnrealistic)

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 00:14

Yeah, saw some character die in some anime a while back. doctors put the shock pads on her breasts. SUE SUE SUE!

So she had perfect aim, but knowledge is wrong so she missed.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 00:20

And even if it hit her heart, we can still save someone provided we get to them fast enough. Hayate is still savable. It's threatening, but with Shamal there, it should be fine.

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 00:21

Well as I put it, they'd have to bring her back from death, quite a trick

mielipuoli

2011-01-28, 00:44

Death or simply spinal severing? Like I said, she's comfortable in a wheelchair.

Then again, as has been pointed out, this is Magical War Chronicle. I have yet to see a war before, me, other than the opening battles of one. As far as a series would go, we'd be around episode 3-4 maybe...

Iromaru

2011-01-28, 00:46

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 00:46

Possibly Shamal's Crowning moment of awesome incoming?

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 00:48

Nanya01

2011-01-28, 00:53

Worfing is a comical element of star trek. It is repeated over and over. Its not repeated here. It snot for laughs here. Hayate is weak, she so admitted. Of course she's a sitting duck. Be more creative and accurate.

I do agree the writing could be more awesome, but given the medium, once again, don't expect so much.

Of course, Worf, unlike all the anime versions, was a main character on TWO Star Trek series and several movies for about a decade or so and lost fight after fight.

He got better in Deep Space Nine when he gave as good as he got.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 01:06

It takes like 5 seconds for such a character to cut the head of incapacitated enemy. She can't spare 15 seconds to get rid of dangerous enemies who will obviously continue to hunt them if they survive?

You tell me they suddenly don't want to kill when they need to kill hundreds of people just to live?

This is bad writing. Plain and simple.

And it's such a shame Worfenritters isn't just a joke phrase anymore.

Might wanna tone the hyperbole down a notch or two; it doesn't help your case.

If you really and honestly and truly think there is worfing going on, then you have to believe it started back in Season 1, with Nanoha losing fight after fight. Yuuno said she had a ton of magic power, and yet to establish Fate as a threat, Nanoha had to lose.

Then Nanoha got "worfed" again in A's. Fate and Arf, too. After all, they had to establish Signum, Vita, and Zafira as threats. Chrono got worfed by losing to the masked guy.

In StrikerS, Ginga got worfed. Zafira got worfed. Vice got worfed. Nanoha got worfed with her injury that took her out of action. Vita got worfed vs. Zest.

And on and on.

Here's a protip: Losing =! Worfing.

You ruined everything. You Ruiner! (http://josephmallozzi.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/star81.mp3)

Edit: For all we know, Karen thought her blow was a fatal one. Or perhaps she judged it risky to hang around longer; after all, she had just noticed that the TSAB's new weapons were actually effective.

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 01:06

Can't even call him a tank really. Hayate is not a tank for that matter, nor Signum. Zafira got beat, no one complained. He is a tank.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 01:21

Can't even call him a tank really. Hayate is not a tank for that matter, nor Signum. Zafira got beat, no one complained. He is a tank.

Signum has an ungodly defensive power ...under normal conditions xDU(Cypha have a weapon able to "ignore" them rather that piercing), able to stand up to Nanoha's infernal Blaster-1 powred attacks(yeah, the same level of power able to outclass Dieci at her own game). And also played a "Stone Wall" strategy against previous opponents until Zest manage to break trough her iron defense(which makes him pretty awesome in his own right). Of course nbow that said defensive powr is reduced to the strenght of wet tissue paper i guess she must need to cash more on her speed and critical attacks(unless Tsuzuki magically heared me and gives her the super AEC-scabbard xD).

Whataver defensive spells Hayate know, the fact that she's dangerously slow is a true weakness with close combat enemies nearby and Karen finally takes advantage of said weakness(bu runniong on Vita and Erio first). To the Hucks credit i must add that they take advantage of previously mentioned weaknesses of the main character that was never been fully exploited before(still a bit of a waste because they are so uber-broken that they almost have no need to exploit said weaknesses anyway xDU).

Zafira is supposedly a Tank(as he showed by guarding Vita against Chrono's Stinger Blade Execution Shift on A's). But assuming Deed's twoin plasma blade have some sort of AMF capabilities or barrier piercing effect it's understandable that she can take Zafira by surprise and land a double critical hit on the poor dog. Shamal VS Otto is such a rare and blurry case that i don't want to discuss it again xDU.

Tiresias

2011-01-28, 01:29

I forgot where this quote came from and its exact content, but roughly:

"if you maim an enemy on the field it takes four of his friends to haul him back from the battle and even more of his friends to patch him up and care for him. Kill an enemy and you decrease the force against you by one. Maim an enemy and you decrease the force against you by ten."

FRS

2011-01-28, 01:34

this just raises me the question. If Hayate's down who will take command of Section Six? Who follows her in the chain of command?
...

If the structure is still the same as in Striker's it should be Griffith but who knows if the point will be even raised in the manga.

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 01:41

Yeah, they'd have to do a full retreat. Let's see Vivio appear!

Thought I try to translate their ability with this. Slight tweaking for each Huck tho. Also make em legendary
http://i.imgur.com/a9V5R.jpg

Shroud - can't be targeted
infect - damage done to creatures with -1/-1 counters, damage to players done with poison counters (if a player has 10 or more poison counters, they lose)
Regenerate: heals damage blah blah

Nanya01

2011-01-28, 01:48

Yeah, they'd have to do a full retreat. Let's see Vivio appear!

Man these guy's disease amuse me. Any MTG fans want to PM me so I can explain? haha.

I'm actually glad Vivio's not appearing right now. *Shudders* And I thought what I did to Olivie in Blood That Flows was bad.

Oh well, at least the Hucks aren't like Slivers, eh, itanshi? ;)

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 01:56

I'm actually glad Vivio's not appearing right now. *Shudders* And I thought what I did to Olivie in Blood That Flows was bad.

Oh well, at least the Hucks aren't like Slivers, eh, itanshi? ;)

Tough can be a pretty damn glorious moment if a 14-year old Einhart appear to curbstomp some Huckebein asses xD

Scarletknive

2011-01-28, 02:03

At least the stab didnt go too far == (i am talking about Force chapter 13)
not as worst as

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUOBFhpcDz4&feature=related

aers

2011-01-28, 02:49

God I hope Vivio doesn't appear.

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-28, 03:56

But for Force, I can still see Nanoha in it. There's nothing too new, other than it feels like the censorship veil has been mostly lifted (nipples and blood, oh my!). What you're seeing in Force, is what you would have seen in the anime seasons if it had been allowed. Possibly because Nanoha was aired on TV. The movie actually shows nipples and blood.

I can still see Nanoha in it, too. But I can also see things that are just not Nanoha-like. And it confuses the hell out of me. And hurts when I am baited in with Nanoha-like stuff, then it is switched for Signum/Isis/Hayate mutilation.

Thread moved way too fast.

According to the above summary Vita and Erio did fight Karen. She sliced through their strike cannons in one slash. They will be joining Hayate in the hospital.

Feel better?

Feeling great.[/sarcasm] Current score: 5 vs. 0.25 (Signum, Isis, Hayate, Vita, and Erio vs. Cypha's arm). Plus one Device and two AEC Equipment pieces. Yay Hucks.

Well, this Karen girl must be one of the top Huckebeins, Erio managed to parry Deville with his Strike Cannon before(getting damaged but still able to stop the attack) but this katana-wialding menace is able to slay TWO of them.

According to the Japanese wiki, Karen is their actual leader, not Fortis.

The Yagami Family is starting to fall pretty quickly, now there's only Shamal and Zafira left xDU.

Tsuzuki definitely thinks they make a good punching bag.

Well, in the first place the Huckies just want to escape, so incapacitating their enemies enough so they can get away is probably fine enough for them. Use the time it would take to finish them off for escaping.

About that...

I forgot where this quote came from and its exact content, but roughly:

"if you maim an enemy on the field it takes four of his friends to haul him back from the battle and even more of his friends to patch him up and care for him. Kill an enemy and you decrease the force against you by one. Maim an enemy and you decrease the force against you by ten."

...this. If you are pursued by an organized team of trained fighters, your best policy is to disable some of them (preferably the leader) so that they will be forced to split the team to tend to the injured instead of resuming pursuit. From what I gather, the Hucks withdraw after this chapter, meaning that stopping Wolfram was exactly what Karen wanted to achieve.

PS: About Hayate's spine... Don't forget that Signum's spine was severed, too. Special Motorized Wheelchair Division, anyone?

Keroko

2011-01-28, 09:23

Spoiler images of the new Vivid in this link.
http://ivory.ap.teacup.com/nagaharuhenyo2/2289.html

And an image which forced me to buy this magazine post-haste.

... Is that a Hayate-centric candy I see in the last two images?

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 09:40

Also, on about arisa and suzuka. It appears to be some dream/side story thing. They (whomight be they) look grown up, but Hayate looks child like.

Scarletknive

2011-01-28, 10:00

Tsuzuki definitely thinks they make a good punching bag.

PS: About Hayate's spine... Don't forget that Signum's spine was severed, too. Special Motorized Wheelchair Division, anyone?

their aim is to disable everyone to run away safely?

why no one remember Vita TT

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 11:34

I can still see Nanoha in it, too. But I can also see things that are just not Nanoha-like. And it confuses the hell out of me. And hurts when I am baited in with Nanoha-like stuff, then it is switched for Signum/Isis/Hayate mutilation.

The Yagami Family is starting to fall pretty quickly, now there's only Shamal and Zafira left xDU.

Tsuzuki definitely thinks they make a good punching bag.

The only thing i can advise to you is to select your favourite FORCE character and run with the story cheering for it because old characters(and specially the wolkenritter) are only here to serve as exactly that ....punchinbags.

According to the Japanese wiki, Karen is their actual leader, not Fortis.

This will sound a bit cruel but this make a lot of sense now, the leader of the Huckebein appears and take down the leader of Section Six, horrible? Yes, out of place in a series like Nanoha? Probably, but appropieate ina sense of the message these guys(and Tsuzuki) are trying to send to the reader.

...this. If you are pursued by an organized team of trained fighters, your best policy is to disable some of them (preferably the leader) so that they will be forced to split the team to tend to the injured instead of resuming pursuit. From what I gather, the Hucks withdraw after this chapter, meaning that stopping Wolfram was exactly what Karen wanted to achieve.

I think i can agree with this train of tought, also will prove that Karen is serious a ther job, after all you need a cold head to be the leader of a group like that, at least all points at Karen being an interesting character, hope that is true.

PS: About Hayate's spine... Don't forget that Signum's spine was severed, too. Special Motorized Wheelchair Division, anyone?

I watched several jokes in 4chan about Signum's new "Device" xDU. But seriously, i think Hayate is the main source of preocupation because she's a natural human, ithink that there's still a chance to use "Book Ex Machina" to reastore Signum or the other Knights but we don't know if that can work for Hayate(in a sense, i think is still possible, her legs was cured after all). If not, there's also the possibility of Hayate reverting to her previous stand returning to a wheelchair and only having a fullfunctional body when tranformed/unisoned.

why no one remember Vita TT

We remember her, but we only have news and descriptions of her fall instead of actual pictures, once the chapter is released and we get a handle on the scans, RAEG for Vita will surely awakes, so start preparing your torch and your fork xD.

Scarletknive

2011-01-28, 12:02

The only thing i can advise to you is to select your favourite FORCE character and run with the story cheering for it because old characters(and specially the wolkenritter) are only here to serve as exactly that ....punchinbags.

This will sound a bit cruel but this make a lot of sense now, the leader of the Huckebein appears and take down the leader of Section Six, horrible? Yes, out of place in a series like Nanoha? Probably, but appropieate ina sense of the message these guys(and Tsuzuki) are trying to send to the reader.

I think i can agree with this train of tought, also will prove that Karen is serious a ther job, after all you need a cold head to be the leader of a group like that, at least all points at Karen being an interesting character, hope that is true.

I watched several jokes in 4chan about Signum's new "Device" xDU. But seriously, i think Hayate is the main source of preocupation because she's a natural human, ithink that there's still a chance to use "Book Ex Machina" to reastore Signum or the other Knights but we don't know if that can work for Hayate(in a sense, i think is still possible, her legs was cured after all). If not, there's also the possibility of Hayate reverting to her previous stand returning to a wheelchair and only having a fullfunctional body when tranformed/unisoned.

We remember her, but we only have news and descriptions of her fall instead of actual pictures, once the chapter is released and we get a handle on the scans, RAEG for Vita will surely awakes, so start preparing your torch and your fork xD.

Fork is ready. But who have a torch?

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 12:13

Punching bags? That's hyperbole territory there.

OMG! Our characters are actually getting hit and injured in a fight! This has not happened before! DAMN YOU TSUZUKI FOR MAKING THEM RISK THEIR LIFE IN COMBAT! Their struggles are supposed to be safe, like all the episodes before and-

What's that?

You mean people got hurt, bled, and risked death in previous stories? How could I have missed the incredibly numerous times they did so? I mean, I feel kinda silly now, since what is happening isn't much different than what has happened before.^^;;

A-heh heh... ignore me...

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 12:23

A-heh heh... ignore me...

Cosidering how things turned out it's not like this hans't happened before but it was never happened with this intensity. This is like the massive worfing of StrikerS Ch. 16-17 turned Up to Eleven. Back then, heroes got hurt, but here, heroes got completely sliced, it wouldn't be that jarring if some sign of a possible comeback were launched but it's hard to affirm that our favourite characters can return to action in time with injuries of that level(Well, we're not sure of Vita and Erio's level of injury yet so this is speculation).

This makes feel the old cast as mere obstacles for the more protagonic Huckebein, the Nanoha cast is here only to offer some eye candy to the fans. But well, i think that at least we can rest assured that our beloved Ace of Aces and her long time "Lancer" will save the day at the end.

But again, i already have Deville xD!

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 12:41

Again, try to refrain from using trope terms you do not understand. This series since the nipple shot that oh that caused a stir. i used it to show this series is supposed to be much more mature and stark. The massive death toll in that chapter also was indicative.

They are finally in over their heads. You forget how old they are. They are youthful, promoted quick. they need to earn their stripes here.

Sheba

2011-01-28, 12:44

The problem that /m/ have pointed out is the blatant titular character and most popular characters shields that Nanoha and Fate ARE wearing. Meaning that the most grievious wounds and whatever sadistic shit thrown at the two of them are likely reflected back onto Yagami-ke. This brought the whole "Does Tsuzuki fucking hate them or something?" question; to me, it bring the question, "Is Tsuzuki SO ENSLAVED to the popularity of Nanoha and Fate that the only times he can HURT the both of them, as in critical wounds, near death experience, etc are in flashbacks?"

In my opinion, that kind of writing is fucking bullshit, if you call this war, I call it War on Easy Modo.

I feel sorry for Aaron, our local Hayate fan; even Chad and Usopp are treated better in Bleach and One Piece.

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 12:47

Well, of course it is. its not a novel, its not biographical. its made for people our ages for disposable consumption

Tiresias

2011-01-28, 12:50

They did try the standard military thing. The Hucks laughed at them.

You know what's one of the most fundamental rule of air combat? In principle, it is better to attack in groups (of four or six). Nanoha didn't even bother to get a wingman, maybe rendezvousing with Fate before resuming her pursuit, before attacking and almost lost her head as a result. She was lucky Fate managed to do her dramatic rescue.

So no, they didn't even try standard military. And this is still shounen, only with military uniforms.

However remember that everytime Nanoha has done something, she has done it alone. In the original, in A´s and in StrikerS, she went alone and she did her befriending thingy and bam everything is good. So hey this time the same is going to happen, and welp no. Also she was overconfident that she could detect any Huckie that got near her. The fact that one of them could teleport didn´t occur to her.

Know what's sad? After all her lessons in StrikerS about teamwork and all, she chose to fly solo against an enemy of unknown but presumably very dangerous capability. Which means that the Aggressors are actually taught to fight as a team and yet she, supposedly Ace of Aces, ignored all that.

I'm starting to suspect she got Victory Disease.

this just raises me the question. If Hayate's down who will take command of Section Six? Who follows her in the chain of command?

Interesting question, because right now the heroes needs to realize that merely relying on love, courage, hope and all that stuff ain't gonna cut it. They need a smart guy here.

Is Graham still alive? His actions during A's were definitely debatable, ruthless and cruel, but at least he's a man with a plan. Or perhaps for the less morally questionable flavor they can call Chrono. Unlike the others he's not reckless and is cautious, which right now is better than what we have.

I tought it was the preliminaries xDU

Whoops, how did I get to that conclusion before? :heh:

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 12:52

Yeah at Nanoha's age, she should be a student still. its funny how we are angry at the series making more sense then it used to. i have no idea how she taught a group of people at 19. makes Jail look like that much more of a chump.

its as if Force is deconstructing StrikerS

Also let it be known that I'm not against abusing characters. its my favorite past time in writing.

Rising Dragon

2011-01-28, 12:56

Worry not for Vita. Remember what happened last time she was stabbed in the back? Yeah.

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 12:58

Yeah, they chickened out :D. Strikers was easy mode IMHO. Force is more Novice mode, but for the characters its hard mode. Also, show some respect, they brought out the experimental weapons that meant shit hahaa. I can count series that did that on one hand.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 13:18

Interesting question, because right now the heroes needs to realize that merely relying on love, courage, hope and all that stuff ain't gonna cut it. They need a smart guy here.

Is Graham still alive? His actions during A's were definitely debatable, ruthless and cruel, but at least he's a man with a plan. Or perhaps for the less morally questionable flavor they can call Chrono. Unlike the others he's not reckless and is cautious, which right now is better than what we have.

To give you some credit, having Graham at the wheel of section Six sounds pretty interesting, also the conditions are good for it, in order to protect the fruits of Hayate's hard work he re-appears to take care of ehr unit while she recovers. the only thing that interfers with this beautiful theory is the fact that Graham quited his charge at the end of A's, so unless he find a way to "get back from retirement" having him back will be only a dream. Chrono is another very good option but i don't know if his rank and occupations will allow him to take the front seat of S6.

Oh and love, courage and hope are failed because they're played very dully on purpouse. Said elements never got trouble mixing with skill, strategies and cunningness before. Tsuzuki make the A's cast stupid in order to let the Hucks shine. Which is a shame because this is bad for the Hucks themselves, fortunately some of them are started to show to be really able to top some of the old cast at their own game without being total dicks about it(Deville *0* ...and possibly Karen). They look like a much more legitimate threat now.

its as if Force is deconstructing StrikerS

To me FORCE is trying to deconstruct the entire series, or at least from A's onwards(the key word is "trying" xDU).

EDIT: Page claimed for love, courage (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383) and HOPE!

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 13:29

Cosidering how things turned out it's not like this hans't happened before but it was never happened with this intensity. This is like the massive worfing of StrikerS Ch. 16-17 turned Up to Eleven.

Again, you can thank censorship for that. It should be clear by now, with nipples and violence, that the manga is freer to be more realistic. And even then, you had Vita stabbed in the back and Nanoha stabbed bad enough that she couldn't walk for a long period of time (implying spinal injury). So Hayate is merely getting what Nanoha and Vita have received previously.

In short, not much is new.

The problem that /m/ have pointed out is the blatant titular character and most popular characters shields that Nanoha and Fate ARE wearing. Meaning that the most grievious wounds and whatever sadistic shit thrown at the two of them are likely reflected back onto Yagami-ke. This brought the whole "Does Tsuzuki fucking hate them or something?" question; to me, it bring the question, "Is Tsuzuki SO ENSLAVED to the popularity of Nanoha and Fate that the only times he can HURT the both of them, as in critical wounds, near death experience, etc are in flashbacks?"

We disagree from time to time, but I find myself agreeing here. Fate rescuing Nanoha and pretty much being free from any real damage, seems like deliberate pandering. Nanoha didn't need Fate to save her when she was in the Cradle, and I find it very unlikely Deville should have been able to get the drop on her like that.

In my opinion, that kind of writing is fucking bullshit, if you call this war, I call it War on Easy Modo.

To be fair, this could very well be the opening salvo of the war. It definitely ain't pretty.

You know what's one of the most fundamental rule of air combat? In principle, it is better to attack in groups (of four or six). Nanoha didn't even bother to get a wingman, maybe rendezvousing with Fate before resuming her pursuit, before attacking and almost lost her head as a result. She was lucky Fate managed to do her dramatic rescue.

Know what's sad? After all her lessons in StrikerS about teamwork and all, she chose to fly solo against an enemy of unknown but presumably very dangerous capability. Which means that the Aggressors are actually taught to fight as a team and yet she, supposedly Ace of Aces, ignored all that.

You know what you're forgetting? That there is only a limited number of the AEC devices, and thus only a limited number of people who have any chance at all. And sometimes, in combat, you have to go it alone. Nanoha and Vita went alone once they parted in the cradle. You go back through the series, and you'll find many instances of characters going it alone.

Sometimes you have no choice, and in this instance, Touma was judged to be a significant threat (he did just one-shot practically everyone), and no one else was ready. Nanoha had to go now, and everyone else would catch up when they could (Subaru and Fate, presumably, are going to show up).

Is Graham still alive? His actions during A's were definitely debatable, ruthless and cruel, but at least he's a man with a plan. Or perhaps for the less morally questionable flavor they can call Chrono. Unlike the others he's not reckless and is cautious, which right now is better than what we have.

Except his plan was flawed from the start, as Chrono called him on it. Graham's plan was to freeze it, but Chrono rightly pointed out that it wouldn't be hard for someone to unfreeze it, and thus they'd be right back to where they were, except with the blood of a dead girl on their hands.

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-28, 13:30

You know what's one of the most fundamental rule of air combat? In principle, it is better to attack in groups (of four or six). Nanoha didn't even bother to get a wingman, maybe rendezvousing with Fate before resuming her pursuit, before attacking and almost lost her head as a result. She was lucky Fate managed to do her dramatic rescue.

So no, they didn't even try standard military. And this is still shounen, only with military uniforms.

Know what's sad? After all her lessons in StrikerS about teamwork and all, she chose to fly solo against an enemy of unknown but presumably very dangerous capability. Which means that the Aggressors are actually taught to fight as a team and yet she, supposedly Ace of Aces, ignored all that.

I'm starting to suspect she got Victory Disease.

Remember that she is not the fírst old cast member to forget that simple rule on Force...

EDIT: Page claimed for love, courage (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383) and HOPE!

Why is it that every time you claim a page, you always link to that one group? :rolleyes: ...oh wait, don't answer that. :heh:

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 14:10

Again, you can thank censorship for that. It should be clear by now, with nipples and violence, that the manga is freer to be more realistic. And even then, you had Vita stabbed in the back and Nanoha stabbed bad enough that she couldn't walk for a long period of time (implying spinal injury). So Hayate is merely getting what Nanoha and Vita have received previously.

In short, not much is new.

Except for a couple of little pretty factors that are, in fact, new:

- Vita's super regeneration was still in play with considerable force at the time. Signum is the clear example that said healing factor has nearly stopped to work(otherwise Signum should be able to stand up depite the impalement and also Vita herself seems unable to repeat the same feat after being taken down by Karen).
- Nanoha was critically injuried IN A FLASHBACK with more than enough time to rest and recover before the main event, Hayate and Signum(and possibly Vita adn Erio) were slashed right at the moment and didn't count with said conveniently large time gap to restore.

Similar? Yes. The same? Damn No.

Justin_Brett

2011-01-28, 14:22

If you endlessly tease of death, but never take the steps, your audience will eventually figure it out. We've had actual death, mass death, and severe injury of our heroes, which hasn't happened before. It does put the whole risk thing back into play. Regardless of whether you find the Huck's boring or not, you have to at least agree that the risk is there. You can tell easily from a lot of people here wondering if Signum was gonna live, and now Hayate.

Hell no. Just because they can kill people does not make them dangerous by itself; the only one who's the LEAST bit intimidating personality-wise is Veyron (the weakest one so far, I should point out). It just feels like Tsuzuki can't come up with any justification for why they're dangerous other than that they can almost-but-not-quite kill characters.

Do you remember that series of Bleach chapters where Aizen was soloing all the Soul Society captains? Were people afraid of him then? No: he was the same meme joke he'd been for a while.

As for tactics, well, if they were all smart like that, the Hucks might, I dunno, lose. Can't have that.

Laevatein

2011-01-28, 14:28

The main problem with the whole Huckebein battle is that it's gone past "establishing the villains as a threat" and has now gone into sadism territory.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 14:33

- Vita's super regeneration was still in play with considerable force at the time. Signum is the clear example that said healing factor has nearly stopped to work(otherwise Signum should be able to stand up depite the impalement and also Vita herself seems unable to repeat the same feat after being taken down by Karen).
- Nanoha was critically injuried IN A FLASHBACK with more than enough time to rest and recover before the main event, Hayate and Signum(and possibly Vita adn Erio) were slashed right at the moment and didn't count with said conveniently large time gap to restore.

Similar? Yes. The same? Damn No.

Of course nothing is the exact same. If it were, we'd be reading the same story. All I needed to point out, though, was that things were similar, and what was happening now, was pretty much what happened before. Thus, no one should be too surprised or upset about it.

And one thing to keep in mind about Signum and Vita, who are both magical programs; Vita was stabbed a plain old dagger object. Signum was stabbed by someone who is anti-magic in human form, with an anti-magic blade. Yeah, common sense tells me Signum would come off worse for the wear. And also that she might be a bit more human at this point.

Hell no. Just because they can kill people does not make them dangerous by itself; the only one who's the LEAST bit intimidating personality-wise is Veyron (the weakest one so far, I should point out). It just feels like Tsuzuki can't come up with any justification for why they're dangerous other than that they can almost-but-not-quite kill characters.

You don't see a group of anti-magic villains in a magic-based society as dangerous? So you just kinda shrug off the hundreds of confirmed kills they've had so far? You shrug off the fact that they've been laughing at the TSAB for who knows how many years now?

Do you remember that series of Bleach chapters where Aizen was soloing all the Soul Society captains? Were people afraid of him then? No: he was the same meme joke he'd been for a while.

I do, but you really should avoid bringing up Bleach comparisons. It's a fairly poor series that straight shounen and fights, no matter how stupid or draw-out the plot needs to get to assist the duels. Aizen was a joke because Bleach was a joke. It jumped the shark after the Rukia rescue arc (and arguably, not long before that).

Villains need to continually be a threat. You can't just establish them as threatening in act 1, and then have the heroes overpower them in act 2, but somehow the villains are still around. If the Hucks were taken down in the last few chapters, everyone here would be laughing at how they built up these bad guys, only to easily knock them down.

"Well, that was... stupid. They built up these bad guys as unstoppable, only for Section six to take them down like drones."

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-28, 14:33

Hell no. Just because they can kill people does not make them dangerous by itself; the only one who's the LEAST bit intimidating personality-wise is Veyron (the weakest one so far, I should point out). It just feels like Tsuzuki can't come up with any justification for why they're dangerous other than that they can almost-but-not-quite kill characters.

I have one question for you: Are you me? :D Because you express all my thoughts before I can even write them down. :heh:

The main problem with the whole Huckebein battle is that it's gone past "establishing the villains as a threat" and has now gone into sadism territory.

No, the main problem is that the first-battle-to-establish-the-new-villains-as-a-credible-threat has dragged on since frigging June 2010. But the sadism is definitely present, too. Sadism towards the fans, I might add.

You don't see a group of anti-magic villains in a magic-based society as dangerous? So you just kinda shrug off the hundreds of confirmed kills they've had so far? You shrug off the fact that they've been laughing at the TSAB for who knows how many years now?

Back on The Wiki That Must Not Be Named, all the facts you named are called "Informed Attribute" and violate the little something called "Show Don't Tell rule". Just sayin'... :rolleyes:

aers

2011-01-28, 14:50

How are they supposed to show all this stuff you want them to show in a monthly manga that barely gets 32 pages, and half the time gets 16 page half-chapters?

For that matter I don't know how they're doing anything at all in such a limited format.

Tiresias

2011-01-28, 14:51

You know what you're forgetting? That there is only a limited number of the AEC devices, and thus only a limited number of people who have any chance at all. And sometimes, in combat, you have to go it alone. Nanoha and Vita went alone once they parted in the cradle. You go back through the series, and you'll find many instances of characters going it alone.

Ah, but soon Touma opened fire on all of them, Huckebein and MS6, only to retreat after wards and being uninterested on attacking unless provoked. Nanoha knew that DeVille is right behind her, so instead of chasing Touma and make her tail vulnerable, she should have faced DeVille for at least until Fate arrived and then let her deal with him while Nanoha continue to pursue Touma.

On the off-chance that DeVille skipped her and went straight to 'rescue' Touma? Even better! Touma is currently attacking everyone, so let the two duke it out while she waits for Fate; they'll only need to handle whoever survived the exchange (which btw was Chrono's plan during TOS... I can understand child Nanoha refusing to use this, but Ace-of-Aces Nanoha? Honor is Signum's shtick, not hers)

Except his plan was flawed from the start, as Chrono called him on it. Graham's plan was to freeze it, but Chrono rightly pointed out that it wouldn't be hard for someone to unfreeze it, and thus they'd be right back to where they were, except with the blood of a dead girl on their hands.

Chrono it is, then.

00-Raiser

2011-01-28, 15:04

Oh yeah, they really hate that Yagami family. That must be why they're getting another magazine image... Oh wai~

http://thumbnails14.imagebam.com/11714/ab98df117132650.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/ab98df117132650)

So yeah, looks like some good stuff. Yagami-ke in the bath, Isis and Lily in the bath, Nanoha and Fate in the bath with Hayate and Rein in there too.

Oh, and Cypha showing off the goods on her motorcycle.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 15:08

Back on The Wiki That Must Not Be Named, all the facts you named are called "Informed Attribute" and violate the little something called "Show Don't Tell rule". Just sayin'... :rolleyes:

Not informed; we outright see it, with how they shrugged off the Wolfram's cannon. We see it between Cypha and Signum, where Cypha admitted to killing a village full of people. We see it in their fight where Cypha dominates Signum despite getting an arm cut off.

I mean, how much more do you want? As aers pointed out, they don't exactly have all the time in the world to show several chapters worth of the Hucks wailing on the TSAB. It would get old real fast.

Ah, but soon Touma opened fire on all of them, Huckebein and MS6, only to retreat after wards and being uninterested on attacking unless provoked. Nanoha knew that DeVille is right behind her, so instead of chasing Touma and make her tail vulnerable, she should have faced DeVille for at least until Fate arrived and then let her deal with him while Nanoha continue to pursue Touma.

Read the manga again. Nanoha does prepare herself to fight Deville, knowing he's on the way. She prepares to abandon her pursuit of Touma to deal with her own pursuer. It was only his teleport hop that got the drop on her, that made it dangerous; something she couldn't have known he'd be able to do.

So, we had 2 choices:

#1. Nanoha is the only one ready, and we want to save/stop Touma as soon as possible. So head on out and stop him if you can, but be prepared to abandon the idea if it looks unfeasible, possibly due to a Huck coming after you.

#2. Sit back and do nothing, and most likely lose Touma to either the Hucks, or have him do something potentially more dangerous (such as another soul shout).

On the off-chance that DeVille skipped her and went straight to 'rescue' Touma? Even better! Touma is currently attacking everyone, so let the two duke it out while she waits for Fate; they'll only need to handle whoever survived the exchange (which btw was Chrono's plan during TOS... I can understand child Nanoha refusing to use this, but Ace-of-Aces Nanoha? Honor is Signum's shtick, not hers)

Saving people is Nanoha's shtick. Thus, her attempt to save Touma completely fits. If you expect Nanoha to sit back and let killers attempt to take someone who Subaru cares about, then you don't know Nanoha. This wouldn't have been a Nanoha series if she didn't.

In fact, I bet you'd rightly call BS if Nanoha said something like, "Hmm, I could save Touma, but I won't. Too risky. I'll just let the bloodthirsty killers handle him."

Chrono it is, then.

Chrono was against using Hayate as a sacrifice even before he deduced the flaw in the plan. Thus he's not someone with a plan who has the cold balls to follow through on it, especially since he presented options to the group and let them decide. Thus, he's not someone who fits your earlier argument.

Oh yeah, they really hate that Yagami family. That must be why they're getting another magazine image... Oh wai~

http://thumbnails14.imagebam.com/11714/ab98df117132650.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/ab98df117132650)

So yeah, looks like some good stuff. Yagami-ke in the bath, Isis and Lily in the bath, Nanoha and Fate in the bath with Hayate and Rein in there too.

Oh, and Cypha showing off the goods on her motorcycle.

Is it just me, or does the Dog Days picture really look like Erio and Caro?

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 15:24

On the off-chance that DeVille skipped her and went straight to 'rescue' Touma? Even better! Touma is currently attacking everyone, so let the two duke it out while she waits for Fate; they'll only need to handle whoever survived the exchange (which btw was Chrono's plan during TOS... I can understand child Nanoha refusing to use this, but Ace-of-Aces Nanoha? Honor is Signum's shtick, not hers).

As offesive as that sounds i must admit that you touch a very valid point there, Nanoha isn't the type of fight who lose the chance of taking advantage of an opponent(like you said Signum's fighting styl is more honorable). the Ace of aces showed to be very pragmatic in combat, thus i find jarring why she suddenly starts to make clumsy decisions in spite of a very real threat, she also seems to be pretty over confident during the last chapters(at least until she feels Deville's breath right behind her neck), probably she's overconfident on of her new shinny weapons? probably she wants to prove that the Ace of Aces can't be taken down so easilly? She thinks she's the "choosen one" when we talk about "befriending someone back to the side of good". whatever motivation she has, that behavior is vary rare for Nanoha, while she acted prideful or fighted to help someone before, she rarely acted over-confident.

The only two times that came to my mind are when she fight Vita for the first time in A's and also during her first battle with Fate in The MOVIE 1st, and ends curbstomped both tim- ....wait, oh no, i hope that i'm not to be right this time o_O!

Oh yeah, they really hate that Yagami family. That must be why they're getting another magazine image... Oh wai~

To me those feels more like apologizes or eye candy to make us forget of what's happening, if i remeber correctly Signum's "Summer Hot" picture came out right after she's showed to be alive in FORCE, like saying "Well, Signum's out of comission but hey! look at this! it's a new poster! an she's still hot!". Great, the Yagami family is getting choped but at least we have posters, whoop-dee-doo!

aers

2011-01-28, 15:27

Kaijo: A lot of the Dog Days character designs are reminiscent of Nanoha ones. I guess it doesn't help that the art style is exactly the same, heh.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 15:33

Not informed; we outright see it, with how they shrugged off the Wolfram's cannon. We see it between Cypha and Signum, where Cypha admitted to killing a village full of people. We see it in their fight where Cypha dominates Signum despite getting an arm cut off.

How convenient is to forget that cypha dominate because her abiliti or REGROW SEVERED LIMBS, she have her two arms when she re-starts the fight so that didn't really count as a disadvantage at all.

I mean, how much more do you want? As aers pointed out, they don't exactly have all the time in the world to show several chapters worth of the Hucks wailing on the TSAB. It would get old real fast.

The sad part is that FORCE is currently doing exactly that xDU. But if things are like you two say, this is probably the Blackest Night watitng for the Brightest Day to come. C'mon Tsuzuki you still have time to perform a Book Ex Machina for the Wolkenritter xD.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 15:34

@aers: It's not just the art style... she's wearing a pink outfit with pink hair, and he's got a white overcoat hiding a red inner coat. If his hair was red, I bet no one here would think they were anyone but Erio and Caro without a second, closer glance. Hell, it was only "Erio's" hair color that made me take a second look, wondering if someone got the color wrong.

As offesive as that sounds i must admit that you touch a very valid point there, Nanoha isn't the type of fight who lose the chance of taking advantage of an opponent(like you said Signum's fighting styl is more honorable). the Ace of aces showed to be very pragmatic in combat, thus i find jarring why she suddenly starts to make clumsy decisions in spite of a very real threat, she also seems to be pretty over confident during the last chapters(at least until she feels Deville's breath right behind her neck), probably she's overconfident on of her new shinny weapons? probably she wants to prove that the Ace of Aces can't be taken down so easilly? She thinks she's the "choosen one" when we talk about "befriending someone back to the side of good". whatever motivation she has, that behavior is vary rare for Nanoha, while she acted prideful or fighted to help someone before, she rarely acted over-confident.

The only problem is that Nanoha has also been someone to go to great lengths to save people. Witness A's SLB despite her being injured and RH damaged, as well as a hand sticking out of her chest. Or her putting RH into Excelion mode to defeat Reinforce, risking her life and RH's in the process.

I'd really argue again: If Nanoha gave up on saving Touma, she wouldn't be the Nanoha we know. And we'd get all sorts of people calling BS on it. She's not overconfident, but taking the same chance she always does, because it's the right thing to do.

Justin_Brett

2011-01-28, 15:40

You don't see a group of anti-magic villains in a magic-based society as dangerous? So you just kinda shrug off the hundreds of confirmed kills they've had so far? You shrug off the fact that they've been laughing at the TSAB for who knows how many years now?

I do, but you really should avoid bringing up Bleach comparisons. It's a fairly poor series that straight shounen and fights, no matter how stupid or draw-out the plot needs to get to assist the duels. Aizen was a joke because Bleach was a joke. It jumped the shark after the Rukia rescue arc (and arguably, not long before that).

Villains need to continually be a threat. You can't just establish them as threatening in act 1, and then have the heroes overpower them in act 2, but somehow the villains are still around. If the Hucks were taken down in the last few chapters, everyone here would be laughing at how they built up these bad guys, only to easily knock them down.

"Well, that was... stupid. They built up these bad guys as unstoppable, only for Section six to take them down like drones."

Now you're sounding like Aki. It's seven people, dude. Don't mention the scientists or foreshadowing, because those are -theories- for the most part. As of now, it's just one group of assholes with an ego problem. If they're supposed to be a threat to entire WORLDS, they're really going to have to up the ante.

And I didn't mean to compare the two series, just the situation: the author playing up a villain, or group of villains, as really tough or badass when a lot of people don't really see it.

I'm also not saying they need to lose here (even if I'd enjoy it), but you need to provide SOME glimmer of hope for the heroes to win, or that's bad writing too. The AEC equipment was supposed to be that, but apparently not now.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 15:41

I'd really argue again: If Nanoha gave up on saving Touma, she wouldn't be the Nanoha we know. And we'd get all sorts of people calling BS on it. She's not overconfident, but taking the same chance she always does, because it's the right thing to do.

No one is talking about on giving up on Tohma, we're only talking about how Nanoha acted a bit prideful here. Seh has better choices to ease things a little and get more efficient results but she behaves like if her team have the high ground when the reality is that the Huckebein is plmmering them to the ground one by one. Fortunately Deville's intervention will most likely make her to put her feets on the ground(...methaporically speaking of course xDU) and be again the brave AND smart Nanoha we know and love. I have a bad feeling on this fight because like i posted before, the only two times in the past she started a fight with that attitude she ended up with her ass handed to her.

Justin_Brett

2011-01-28, 15:45

Also, I have to admit, Cypha looks way better in that artstyle than her NEXT picture.

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 15:46

So are we wanting cliches or nuances? The weapons failing (or just unable to connect) is a nuance. Sure made this place active. It sounds like a success to me.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 15:52

I prefer well executed cliches than trying to be original and just make people angry xDU. I can give Kaijo a point ...NOTHING that were watching here is new or revolutionary in the world of anime or stories in general, but it's so clumsy applied and executed that is starting to get laughable to me(i'm busrting in laughter with all of this "Hayate's stabbing" event xD! ...and one of the main reasons is that i saw it coming from a mile ago but nobody believes me).

I think this is Tsuzuki's exclusive story, ViVid is for fans but FORCe is his personal project where he gives himself the chance to experiment and do crazy things with his characters or inventing new ones that results entertaining for him or suit his tastes(so much love for the Huckebein can be smelled on this manga's enviroment). So just sit, relax and watch what result from this funny mess.

EDIT: Page claimed for original Signum (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383).

Laith

2011-01-28, 15:53

I'm also not saying they need to lose here (even if I'd enjoy it), but you need to provide SOME glimmer of hope for the heroes to win, or that's bad writing too. The AEC equipment was supposed to be that, but apparently not now.

A) Not really, Asuka had no hope in defeating 9 evas/Luffy could not defeat Magellan/etc. Is called tension and changes the question of "How will they defeat them" to "How will they survive"

B)The AEC equipment are prototypes, expecting to win with something that is still not complete is well pretty stupid actually.

c) Considering that they knew little of the opponents (he can teleport btw/I can make your device useless~) means that they were pretty much blinded. You go blinded to a loving war you are going to get your ass handed to you. HARD. More so because the huckies knew them.

I think this is Tsuzuki's exclusive story, ViVid is for fans but FORCe is his personal project where he gives himself the chance to experiment and do crazy things with his characters or inventing new ones that results entertaining for him or suit his tastes(so much love for the Huckebein can be smelled on this manga's enviroment). So just sit, relax and watch what result from this funny mess.

Not really, the two are aimed to the fans. One is for the fans that loved the moe~ or things like that and others that loved the military/sci-fi aspect of the nanohaverse. Also, if we as authors don´t try new things, people get bored eventually.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 15:59

B)The AEC equipment are prototypes, expecting to win with something that is still not complete is well pretty stupid actually.

And still countless great heroes maged to pull AWESOME and memorable victories using incomplete prototypes.

Not really, the two are aimed to the fans. One is for the fans that loved the moe~ or things like that and others that loved the military/sci-fi aspect of the nanohaverse. Also, if we as authors don´t try new things, people get bored eventually.

Still so much love is smelled, even with the military setting and stuff the Huckebein seems to be more important characters than the supossed main characters themselves. they have so much attentions that i can't come up with a better answer than Tsuzuki really like these guys ...with burning passion.

Laith

2011-01-28, 16:06

And still countless great heroes maged to pull AWESOME and memorable victories using incomplete prototypes.

We are in a real-type mecha mahou shoujo anime not in a super-type, don´t expect that courage, love and will will save the day.

Still so much love is smelled, even with the military setting and stuff the Huckebein seems to be more important characters than the supossed main characters themselves. they have so much attentions that i can't come up with a better answer than Tsuzuki really like these guys ...with burning passion.

Considering that the old characters are pretty flat and one-dimensional, the new characters have a complex backstory, and that we are just starting... don´t get your hopes up.

Also the main character are Touma/Lily(who?)/Isis, so really everyone is stealing their show.

Kikaifan

2011-01-28, 16:13

We are in a real-type mecha mahou shoujo anime not in a super-type, don´t expect that courage, love and will will save the day.

Considering that the old characters are pretty flat and one-dimensional, the new characters have a complex backstory, and that we are just starting... don´t get your hopes up.

Also the main character are Touma/Lily(who?)/Isis, so really everyone is stealing their show.

I fail to see how the Hucks' backstory is any more complex than the Wolkies. We have to do bad shit because of weird old magic and waaah. Except the Wolkies actually had their memory block/the reincarnation of the book as excuses for not just offing themselves for the greater good. The Hucks are just dicks and not a lot else.

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-28, 16:14

Oh yeah, they really hate that Yagami family. That must be why they're getting another magazine image... Oh wai~

They do not hate them. In fact, they love them... as their punching bags.

Not informed; we outright see it, with how they shrugged off the Wolfram's cannon. We see it between Cypha and Signum, where Cypha admitted to killing a village full of people. We see it in their fight where Cypha dominates Signum despite getting an arm cut off.

You misinterpreted my point. I agree that the fact that Hucks are dangerous has been demonstrated properly and sufficiently. But the claim that they are *evil* has only been illustrated by them maiming (mainly) the old A's cast. And the three nuns in the church.

The mass-murderer aspect of them has been confirmed by Cypha but remember that Veyron also implied that he destroyed Thoma's village, only for Fortis to deny it later. With that in mind, I think you can understand my reservations about believing Cypha's confession.

To me those feels more like apologizes or eye candy to make us forget of what's happening, if i remeber correctly Signum's "Summer Hot" picture came out right after she's showed to be alive in FORCE, like saying "Well, Signum's out of comission but hey! look at this! it's a new poster! an she's still hot!". Great, the Yagami family is getting choped but at least we have posters, whoop-dee-doo!

Oozing. Joy. Orifices.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 16:19

Now you're sounding like Aki. It's seven people, dude. Don't mention the scientists or foreshadowing, because those are -theories- for the most part. As of now, it's just one group of assholes with an ego problem. If they're supposed to be a threat to entire WORLDS, they're really going to have to up the ante.

I'm not quite sure why you're trying to dismiss the scientists; it's blatantly obvious more people are involved here than just the Hucks. But for simplicity's sake, we're just dealing with the threat the Huck's post.

And I guess you don't see killing several hundred people, while laughing at the Bureau's pitiful attempts to stop them, as somehow bad and threatening. They are pretty much immune to magic, and that's what the TSAB uses.

And I didn't mean to compare the two series, just the situation: the author playing up a villain, or group of villains, as really tough or badass when a lot of people don't really see it.

Interestingly enough, I actually did see Aizen as a threat, although I felt they made him a bit OP to accomplish that. If you can control all senses of everyone around you, then there is no way they can touch you. Aizen shouldn't have been touched by anyone... ever. But that's because his ability was so OP in the first place.

I'm also not saying they need to lose here (even if I'd enjoy it), but you need to provide SOME glimmer of hope for the heroes to win, or that's bad writing too. The AEC equipment was supposed to be that, but apparently not now.

The AEC equipment are also new prototypes that need more tweaking. I highly suspect that when both sides withdraw to lick their wounds, the equipment will be refined, and the next time they meet, the Huck's won't quite have their way. Good writing gives the heroes a chance, while still making it a challenge. The AEC equipment gives them a chance, but it's still a challenge.

Hell, you've read Future Tense. I brought in the Huck's and I believe you complained about me bringing in the invincible people; you couldn't possibly see how the heroes could win. And yet, in the very next chapter, I showed you exactly how (although that same method might not be repeated for all of them ;p)

In FT, I'm sitting right where Tsuzuki is. And until you write a story like that, you won't really understand. I know, like Tsuzuki does, exactly how things are gonna go. To a degree, I get a kick out of people wondering how the hell things are going to end up, and if our heroes can even win. You don't see exactly how, but the writer does.

You misinterpreted my point. I agree that the fact that Hucks are dangerous has been demonstrated properly and sufficiently. But the claim that they are *evil* has only been illustrated by them maiming (mainly) the old A's cast. And the three nuns in the church.

The mass-murderer aspect of them has been confirmed by Cypha but remember that Veyron also implied that he destroyed Thoma's village, only for Fortis to deny it later. With that in mind, I think you can understand my reservations about believing Cypha's confession.

Oh, I share your hesitation about Cypha's confession; it may or may not be true. But I was only trying to establish their "dangerous" label. And to be fair, they only showed three nuns; odds are there were more than three people in that church. ;p

Laith

2011-01-28, 16:20

I fail to see how the Hucks' backstory is any more complex than the Wolkies.

Same complexity as them, my mistake. I did make a generalization and derp.

We have to do bad shit because of weird old magic and waaah.

Perfectly acceptable human behaviour. When you are asked the question of "if your death could save many lives" people will respond that yes they would. The huckies are the example that tells you that no, you won´t because living is awesome and if I have to go over you to do so, so be it.

Except the Wolkies actually had their memory block/the reincarnation of the book as excuses for not just offing themselves for the greater good.

Knights will always be loyal to one thing: their master/mistress nothing less nothing more. Offing themselves was never in their plain, offing others wasn´t because their mistress indirectly told them not to.

The Hucks are just dicks and not a lot else.

They are awesome dicks though.

Justin_Brett

2011-01-28, 16:23

Please don't imply things about my writing just to prove a point; I don't think you have any idea what I'm going to do with it.

And that was more because you were basically bringing them into the story when you had gone out of your way to remove them years prior. It felt like kind of a cop-out.

But I digress. If two people with weapons specifically designed to fight these guys are taken down in the space of one chapter, that's more than a challenge to me.

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-28, 16:27

Oh, I share your hesitation about Cypha's confession; it may or may not be true. But I was only trying to establish their "dangerous" label.

I have never had a problem with the dangerous part. I merely wished for the Huck's villainy to be illustrated in some way other than maiming my favorite characters. :)

And to be fair, they only showed three nuns; odds are there were more than three people in that church. ;p

It was a small church, they don't hold that many people. :p

Sheba

2011-01-28, 16:27

We are in a real-type mecha mahou shoujo anime not in a super-type, don´t expect that courage, love and will will save the day.

Knowing the franchise track record, I am afraid it will be talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, pink beam and more talk that will save the day. Even your old american sitcoms were a little less yawn-inducing than that. The more cynical fans are calling this show "Magical Therapist Nanoha" for a reason. She could even be that character (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/1379217/) that the /tg/ guys create as a some kind of twisted experiment.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 16:28

Considering that the old characters are pretty flat and one-dimensional, the new characters have a complex backstory, and that we are just starting... don´t get your hopes up.

"We're infected with a virus that make us invincible against mages and make us need to kill to survive so we kill hapilly anyone who mess with us because we got used to it" ...yeah, very complex[/sarcasm].

They can be cool but i think they're getting so much unecssary attention. they're the threatening bad guys who are stronger than the heroes and proved to be the big threat to defeat, jast at that poin the Huckebein funtions pretty well as characters, is ome valuable piece of flashback giving some deep was showed taking advatage fo the amount of screetime this guys have comsumed i probably would accepted your statement but for now they hasn't do or showed anything beyond being broken killing machines and being dicks about it(even the little Stella can't hold her hammyness xDU). theyy already filled their role as villains, but i concede you that is still soon to judge the story in itself, as Kaijo said, contantly seeing the Huckebeing trashing the heroes will get old pretty quickly, eventually the hoeroes will need to have their own screentime and start gathering rays of hope for the comeback, but we need to wait for this nightmerish introductory stage to finally ends, presumably after this battle.

Also, if the main characters feels "flat and one-dimensional" is only ebcause of how Tsuzuki treated them back on StrikerS, in A's everyone have strong motives and deep reasons for doing what they're doing(even Graham). Also while cool, the Huckebein are alse pretty underdeveloped for the most part(making the time spent on them to feel like a waste to add insult to the injury), Cypha hasn't showed anything more than being a psychotic smugger on the battlfield and a cold soldier outside of it(if we take into account her interrogation of Lily), even when i'm think Deville is the most badass character around at the time in reality he hasn't showed any developement at all, probably the mroe developed of the Huckebein are Fortis, Veyron and Arnage(due to their mouths primarly). Calling the old cast "flat" feels like a false accusation.

Of course, if you talk about their roles in FORCE so far things really change xDU, so far they're played like flanderized verions of themselves xDU. more proof that the Tsuzuki's focus is on the Huckebein right now.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 16:34

Please don't imply things about my writing just to prove a point; I don't think you have any idea what I'm going to do with it.

My apologies if you felt so; I actually haven't read anything you might have written. My point was only that sitting in the spot of the writer, it can be kind of fun to throw characters into a situation where it leaves the reader going, "WTF!? How they can possibly deal with this?" all the while knowing exactly how they can.

The fact that we're debating this at all is proof of this. If Tsuzuki is able to read all this, I suspect he'd chuckle.

And that was more because you were basically bringing them into the story when you had gone out of your way to remove them years prior. It felt like kind of a cop-out.

I only mentioned that Veyron was the only Huckbein to die. Perhaps a bit of misdirection on my part, heh.

But I digress. If two people with weapons specifically designed to fight these guys are taken down in the space of one chapter, that's more than a challenge to me.

Good, we've established that they are a threat. =)

Edit: To everyone, I'd like to emphasize the fact that we're only a half-dozen chapters into this, and the battle has only gone on for perhaps 3 or 4 chapters. This is extremely short. I'm expecting this to continue for quite awhile, and for us to get all the development some of us may think are missing.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 16:38

Good, we've established that they are a threat. =)

OK fine! they're dangerous! we got it! please move on! what's next?

My apologies if you felt so; I actually haven't read anything you might have written. My point was only that sitting in the spot of the writer, it can be kind of fun to throw characters into a situation where it leaves the reader going, "WTF!? How they can possibly deal with this?" all the while knowing exactly how they can.

The fact that we're debating this at all is proof of this. If Tsuzuki is able to read all this, I suspect he'd chuckle.

That's why i started to laugh too. the guy is just playing with our minds while he eat his pork ramen pacefully while watching baseball. It's his story, not ours he can do with your favourite character whatever he wants xD. the huckebein are the stars of the show.

So, DEVILLE for President! ...he can CHOP the competition xD!

Justin_Brett

2011-01-28, 16:40

...I specifically remember a passage stating Touma killed himself and their leader.

Who is...god dammit Kaijo, you're a lucky son of a bitch with this story.

And if you go too far with doing that, it can often leave the reader dissatisfied with how the crisis is resolved. If it's just going to be a 'not worth killing' scenario, then that will be a massive anti-climax. I actually like Touma, so I'd kind of like it if he got to do something in his own story.

Laith

2011-01-28, 16:43

Knowing the franchise track record, I am afraid it will be talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, pink beam and more talk that will save the day. Even your old american sitcoms were a little less yawn-inducing than that. The more cynical fans are calling this show "Magical Therapist Nanoha" for a reason. She could even be that character (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/1379217/) that the /tg/ guys create as a some kind of twisted experiment.

Considering that two pwople were downed already, I don´t think so. On the other hand it is a mahou shoujo manga so it is probable that will end like this.

"We're infected with a virus that make us invincible against mages and make us need to kill to survive so we kill hapilly anyone who mess with us because we got used to it" ...yeah, very complex[/sarcasm].

We don´t remember anything but our mistress is dying so let´s fill a plot device that will totally not explode in our faces. is not that complex either.

They can be cool but i think they're getting so much unecssary attention.

I dont remember people complaining about the Wolkies who had the same treatment. But hey what do i now, I am an objective fan so...

Also, if the main characters feels "flat and one-dimensional" is only ebcause of how Tsuzuki treated them back on StrikerS, in A's everyone have strong motives and deep reasons for doing what they're doing(even Graham). Also while cool, the Huckebein are alse pretty underdeveloped for the most part(making the time spent on them to feel like a waste to add insult to the injury), Cypha hasn't showed anything more than being a psychotic smugger on the battlfield and a cold soldier outside of it(if we take into account her interrogation of Lily), even when i'm think Deville is the most badass character around at the time in reality he hasn't showed any developement at all, probably the mroe developed of the Huckebein are Fortis, Veyron and Arnage(due to their mouths primarly). Calling the old cast "flat" feels like a false accusation.

Oh, I am not saying that the huckies are developed hell no, I am saying that compared to the others they look better. The wolkies only changed at the end of A´s. Fate hasn´t changed since A´s. Nanoha is still the "I have to save everyone I can" girl.

In other words between 1.00 (Original cast), 1.01 (wolkies) and 1.02 (huckies), the last have more. Just a little but more.

Of course, if you talk about their roles in FORCE so far things really change xDU, so far they're played like flanderized verions of themselves xDU. more proof that the Tsuzuki's focus is on the Huckebein right now.

The huckies are also one trick characters (sadistic/serious/hot blooded/lazy/etc) so don´t believe I am defending them much. See above.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 17:14

Oh boy, putting your hands on the Wolkenritter, where to begin...

We don´t remember anything but our mistress is dying so let´s fill a plot device that will totally not explode in our faces. is not that complex either.

A mistress who shows them how develop their emotions, to feel joy and doing other things outside of beating people, Six months latter they learn that said person who teach to them to basically know how to enjoy life is going to DIE if they don't collect the pages of the Book(unkowingly putting more nails on Hayate's coffin T-T). They're faced by kids they don't want to harm and that even results to be nice and admirable people for them. Things got a bit rushed and they lack proper developement(save Vita) but the point of their fight and their personalities are quickly stablished and put in motion with the develop of the S1 cast(which was fairly equitative i might to add, even Yuuno got his 5 seconds of glory).

I dont remember people complaining about the Wolkies who had the same treatment. But hey what do i now, I am an objective fan so...

People didn't complain because it didn't felt like an asspull to justify their existence, the Wolkenritter has strong motives, behavior and reasons that rised the need to be explained in order to blend the characters with the overall story, the result speak for itself, they started as hated character because of their rude introduction but things quickly change once their motives are revealed and the S1 sterted to pull off awesomeness again, then we learn more of them and Hayate and a tragic conflict of Heroes Vs Heroes takes place. Back in A's the Wolkenritter existed more as a group rather than individual character they complement each others personalities and figh tigheter for a common goal disposed to sacrifice their lives for their beloved master's sake if necessary. It was StrikerS who try to separate them thus spliting their dynamic and make them apparently "flattened"(save Vita again xD) affecting Signum's developement and sending shamal and Zafira to near "extra" status.

I guess the pragmatic descision of the Huckebein make of praise their lives over anyone is feasible under certain condition, but the context around said idea was poorly executed up to this point. Once their brutal introduction finshes we'll gonna see how things play up, but right know the only two things we know about this guys are that they're stronger than you and that they'll make suro to make you notice about it ..and feel bad for it(i just resumed Cypha's entire speech in one statement) xDU.

Oh, I am not saying that the huckies are developed hell no, I am saying that compared to the others they look better. The wolkies only changed at the end of A´s. Fate hasn´t changed since A´s. Nanoha is still the "I have to save everyone I can" girl.

All of those good character traits that were very well played in the past, it was on StrikerS when the flanderization started(soldier Nanoha, Power Ranger Fate, Over-The-top Badass Signum and so on...) xDU

In other words between 1.00 (Original cast), 1.01 (wolkies) and 1.02 (huckies), the last have more. Just a little but more.

That's more on each one tastes and preferences, for what i'm reading i think i can assume that you like these guys extreme pragmatism in combat and cynic view of life, they're the dirty guys fighting on a world filled with clean idealistic characters. I think i kind of like that train of tought, i'm only think the concept needs a better execution other than make the original cast look lame on purpouse.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 17:33

...I specifically remember a passage stating Touma killed himself and their leader.

Who is...god dammit Kaijo, you're a lucky son of a bitch with this story.

Heh heh heh. I've been fairly good with predictions so far in Future Tense, but I know that, statistically speaking, I'm going to get something wrong eventually. And I was partially wrong; I think I was presuming Veyron to be the leader at the time, but yes, I am lucky and that can mean Karen. ;p I can just assume Veyron to be dead, too, or still locked up, as to why he isn't showing up.

Whew!^^;;

And if you go too far with doing that, it can often leave the reader dissatisfied with how the crisis is resolved. If it's just going to be a 'not worth killing' scenario, then that will be a massive anti-climax. I actually like Touma, so I'd kind of like it if he got to do something in his own story.

Hey, me too. But I have to remind myself we are barely into this. If this ends up being a 50 chapter story, then we are only 20-25% of the way into it, which means we got the vast majority to go. Something to keep in mind.

Laith

2011-01-28, 17:33

Oh boy, putting your hands on the Wolkenritter, where to begin...

Yeah I kinda knew I did a mistake before posting it but hey a healthy friendly discussion everynow and then is good right? =D

A mistress who shows them how develop their emotions, to feel joy and doing other things outside of beating people, Six months latter they learn that said person who teach to them to basically know how to enjoy life is going to DIE if they don't collect the pages of the Book(unkowingly putting more nails on Hayate's coffin T-T). They're faced by kids they don't want to harm and that even results to be nice and admirable people for them. Things got a bit rushed and they lack proper developement(save Vita) but the point of their fight and their personalities are quickly stablished and put in motion with the develop of the S1 cast(which was fairly equitative i might to add, even Yuuno got his 5 seconds of glory).

Yeah I kinda can´t argue this one because so far the Huckies have only a general backstory. So next.

People didn't complain because it didn't felt like an asspull to justify their existence, the Wolkenritter has strong motives, behavior and reasons that rised the need to be explained in order to blend the characters with the overall story, the result speak for itself, they started as hated character because of their rude introduction but things quickly change once their motives are revealed and the S1 sterted to pull off awesomeness again, then we learn more of them and Hayate and a tragic conflict of Heroes Vs Heroes takes place. Back in A's the Wolkenritter existed more as a group rather than individual character they complement each others personalities and figh tigheter for a common goal disposed to sacrifice their lives for their beloved master's sake if necessary. It was StrikerS who try to separate them thus spliting their dynamic and make them apparently "flattened"(save Vita again xD) affecting Signum's developement and sending shamal and Zafira to near "extra" status.

On the StrikerS point, they actually stayed the same, is just that the without the whole, they are anti villains dont hate them, their personalities shined completely. Also, the Huckies lack a "get-out-of-hatedom-for-free" card like Hayate. So yes if we see the confrontation morally, the huckies appear and are evil. However, if we go to the huckies side for a moment (don´t worry you can return later), they are sick people that want to continue living so they are going to do everything they can. Vayron at least says something like, we don´t like unnecesary killing and they avoided the TSAB because they just wanted to live in relative amoral peace damn it.

I guess the pragmatic descision of the Huckebein make of praise their lives over anyone is feasible under certain condition, but the context around said idea was poorly executed up to this point. Once their brutal introduction finshes we'll gonna see how things play up, but right know the only two things we know about this guys are that they're stronger than you and that they'll make suro to make you notice about it ..and feel bad for it(i just resumed Cypha's entire speech in one statement) xDU.

Sure let´s wait.

All of those good character traits that were very well played in the past, it was on StrikerS when the flanderization started(soldier Nanoha, Power Ranger Fate, Over-The-top Badass Signum and so on...) xDU

Actually Nanoha sins of being the most boring character (Your Mileage Will Vary in effect.) I mean, "Want to help you, listen to me, this may hurt a little cue befriending" is her sole role. Also Signum is not over the top badass, she is more honor-bounded than everyone.

That's more on each one tastes and preferences, for what i'm reading i think i can assume that you like these guys extreme pragmatism in combat and cynic view of life, they're the dirty guys fighting on a world filled with clean idealistic characters. I think i kind of like that train of tought, i'm only think the concept needs a better execution other than make the original cast look lame on purpouse.

I actually like everyone equally, I just defend the underdog :).

Hey, me too. But I have to remind myself we are barely into this. If this ends up being a 50 chapter story, then we are only 20-25% of the way into it, which means we got the vast majority to go. Something to keep in mind.

Yeah but it´s fun to discuss points of view while you can still change them and not later when it already ended.

Keroko

2011-01-28, 17:36

I fail to see how the Hucks' backstory is any more complex than the Wolkies. We have to do bad shit because of weird old magic and waaah. Except the Wolkies actually had their memory block/the reincarnation of the book as excuses for not just offing themselves for the greater good. The Hucks are just dicks and not a lot else.

I'm amused that people are actually still debating whether the Hucks are evil or not. It's almost as if Hayate getting stabbed was like saying "There, you see? We're evil! You believe us now? No? Then Vita's next!"

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-28, 17:40

I'm amused that people are actually still debating whether the Hucks are evil or not. It's almost as if Hayate getting stabbed was like saying "There, you see? We're evil! You believe us now? No? Then Vita's next!"

Wasn't it? :-\

EDIT: Page claim for you-know-who (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383).

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 17:42

I'm amused that people are actually still debating whether the Hucks are evil or not. It's almost as if Hayate getting stabbed was like saying "There, you see? We're evil! You believe us now? No? Then Vita's next!"

To be fair, there is still some doubt. I mean, the virus apparently forces them to kill in order to live, so while not a nice thing, it's not exactly evil; just selfish. We do know that Veyron killed some nuns, and it's likely Cypha killed a village, butshe could have been just trying to goad Signum.

So I wouldn't say the Hucks are evil so much yet, at least all of them. I'm getting a vibe of "some of the Hucks will die for the sins of the others, while the others will be cured and rehabilitated." I think Veyron and Cypha may die, and possibly Karen.

Hayate's stabbing raises some interesting questions, though. Without proper context, why didn't Karen go for a more sure-kill move? She broke up Erio and Caro's Strike Cannons, apparently, but didn't lop of Hayate's head or slice her in half? As bad as we may think the Hucks to be, it seems like they are going out of their way not to kill unnecessarily, just like Fortis said.

Although Deville snapping Isis's neck is debatable, if she really is a cyborg or something, the Huck's would know it and thus know how much punishment she could possibly take without dying (and he did take the action to protect a member of his family). They did think she was rather dangerous, and since they don't fear magic, it has to be for another reason.

Koveras Alvane

2011-01-28, 17:47

So I wouldn't say the Hucks are evil so much yet, at least all of them. I'm getting a vibe of "some of the Hucks will die for the sins of the others, while the others will be cured and rehabilitated." I think Veyron and Cypha may die, and possibly Karen.

Veyron, fine. But Cypha and Karen should be kept alive as personal slaves to Signum and Hayate, respectively, for all eternity. :uhoh:

Although Deville snapping Isis's neck is debatable, if she really is a cyborg or something, the Huck's would know it and thus know how much punishment she could possibly take without dying (and he did take the action to protect a member of his family). They did think she was rather dangerous, and since they don't fear magic, it has to be for another reason.

If you recall, the Eclipse Vision (seen through Thoma's eyes) couldn't identify Isis as anything but a vague major threat. I don't see why Deville should be able to discern more about her in the short time he has seen her in Reacted form. And just to remind you, Combat Cyborgs are ostensibly non-magical, too.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 17:53

Yeah I kinda knew I did a mistake before posting it but hey a healthy friendly discussion everynow and then is good right? =D

Yup, discussion help to clarify things and points of view, i don't know how much i will prolong this surprisingly period of sudden lucidness. But i think i'm finally finished with my period of absolute rage against the huckebein and starte to view them as actual characters(save for Cypha, hey! give me some time to get over it xDU).

So far i find Veyron interesting, Arnage funny and Devill totally Badass. Fortis is annoying to me for the most part and i find Stella scary, i don't talk about cypha for the moment but Karen looks promising. I know it sounds very superficial because we only get her name, the fact that she stabbs Hayate and one pic, but in said pic she's impalling her with a serious expression and a shadow over her eyes(both cool traits) and taking into consideration that she's the leader of the group that make think and considerate that we're talking about someone who gives orders to people like Fortis and Cypha, Karen definetly appoints to have a strong personality to command the group and make the other Hucks own personalities to blend(which is VITAL at this point for their characterization). For the first time in 7 months i finally can say that i'm impatient for the next chapter of this manga.

Also Signum is not over the top badass, she is more honor-bounded than everyone.

Probably "Over-the-Top" wasn't the right word to say. I'm referring that is on StrikerS when Signum's wionning streak became more obvious giving the illusion that she is "unbeatable", an illusion that fooled some part of the fanbase into believing that she's the best combat mage in the series(with me as one of the worst examples i might to add xDU). Back in A's while she represents a big threat by herself, she looked like a much more balanced character, struggling to defeat Fate adn getting fooled by the Lieze twins at the end(also getting asleep on the couch and drinking warm milk also helps to soft her image a lot xD). It take more than half a year but i'm more or less opened my eyes, as a badass she's on the same level as the rest of the cast, no better no worse, as a character she lacks developement but still have enough to fit into the rooster(specially within the Yagami family), so while i'm still a little bit apalled by the lie of "Super Signum" i still like her somewhat so i hope she get better.

Sheba

2011-01-28, 18:01

Wasn't it? :-\

EDIT: Page claim for you-know-who (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383).
To be honest, I am putting myself in the shoes of those Hayate fans who had shit rubbed on their face since StrikerS. "She will get her time in the limeligh... OH LOOK SHE GOT STABBED!!" Fuck, Shikamaru was given his awesome moments, Usopp was shown growing to be a badass, but Hayate? Noooooo.

Tsuzuki should just get on with it, kill the Wolkies and put their them out of their shafting misery.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 18:03

Tsuzuki should just get on with it, kill the Wolkies and put their them out of their shafting misery.

I couldn't deny how attractive that options looked to me at several times xDU

Keroko

2011-01-28, 18:03

To be fair, there is still some doubt.

"Kay, of we go then. Oi! Hammer girl! Your turn!"

I can think of several ways to use that virus in productive ways that don't involve slaughtering whatever gets in your path. I have no doubt we'll see some befriending, but that will be more "Turn your back to the dark side" than "You're not really evil, just misunderstood."

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 18:06

If you recall, the Eclipse Vision (seen through Thoma's eyes) couldn't identify Isis as anything but a vague major threat. I don't see why Deville should be able to discern more about her in the short time he has seen her in Reacted form. And just to remind you, Combat Cyborgs are ostensibly non-magical, too.

Remember, they stripped Isis naked because they viewed her as a greater than Touma. Think about that for a second. If Isis is a combat cyborg, then she has great strength and the power to hurt them, since she wouldn't be fighting with magic. As a Huck, that would worry me. It's partly why I wondered why RF6 didn't bring more combat cyborgs in on this. Dieci, Wendi, and Otto for long-range fire support, and then Sein could get Nove, Deed, and Cinque aboard.

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 18:57

Now that is a good point, but that makes it a Stereo Drama and not a premier Manga series :/ so sad

Justin_Brett

2011-01-28, 20:03

That's a good point, Kaijo: maybe Isis' IS (if she has one) is really something, then?

And while we're mentioning Veyron, they ever gonna get back to that rivalry thing with Touma? Dude did have dreams about the guy grasping his chin. While Touma was a shota. >_>

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 20:17

I think we already see her IS: making a gas and making it go boom. Also giving her knowledge of many different mixtures. Also note that we never see her magic circle, heh.

One thing that struck me, is that Isis knows how to create all these mixtures, at the young age of 15. Either she's a master chemist, she's got cyborg brain assistance.

Justin_Brett

2011-01-28, 20:19

That doesn't seem quite enough when you match it up to what Touma's pulled off so far. Them knowing what mixtures she could use wouldn't really make sense, either...

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 20:29

One thing that struck me, is that Isis knows how to create all these mixtures, at the young age of 15. Either she's a master chemist, she's got cyborg brain assistance.

That wouldn't be so unusual. It reminds me of how Peter Parker's spider powers give him the instinctive knowledge of how to combine certain enzymes and chemicals to make the fluid of his web-shooters(if only Isis also counted with an spider-sesne ...poor girl xDU).

That doesn't seem quite enough when you match it up to what Touma's pulled off so far. Them knowing what mixtures she could use wouldn't really make sense, either...

Take into consideration that Arnage took away most of Isis's stuff. She probaby have more dangerous tricks under her sleeve.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 20:44

That doesn't seem quite enough when you match it up to what Touma's pulled off so far. Them knowing what mixtures she could use wouldn't really make sense, either...

Touma? You mean Isis? I don't think they knew what mixtures she would use; just that they could analyze her and see she was a combat cyborg. They wouldn't know her IS, but probably informed enough to know that cyborgs do have IS's. Thus they took everything away from her to be safe; they didn't know what she could use against them. Only that it would be non-magical and thus troublesome.

It would be like taking away Dieci's gun or Nove's skates.

Akiyoshi

2011-01-28, 20:50

It would be like taking away Dieci's gun or Nove's skates.

Poor Dieci T-T. Nove at least have her Gun Knuckle and her ass kicking abilities xDU.

00-Raiser

2011-01-28, 21:35

I'm amused that people are actually still debating whether the Hucks are evil or not. It's almost as if Hayate getting stabbed was like saying "There, you see? We're evil! You believe us now? No? Then Vita's next!"

That doesn't make them evil. Of course, what is 'evil' exactly? All the killing/maiming the Hucks have done were only a means to an end. A powerful enemy is attacking them, and they're fighting back. Is that inherently evil? Or is it not their human right to act in self defense, to prioritize their own well being when their lives are threatened?

So the author is doing something you don't like. Well, no one's forcing you to continue reading this are they? If it's too much for you you can just walk away.

Yasanagi

2011-01-28, 21:55

I think we already see her IS: making a gas and making it go boom.

In that case, her new official battle cry is "SUCK GAS, EVILDOER!!"

Kikaifan

2011-01-28, 22:04

That doesn't make them evil. Of course, what is 'evil' exactly? All the killing/maiming the Hucks have done were only a means to an end. A powerful enemy is attacking them, and they're fighting back. Is that inherently evil? Or is it not their human right to act in self defense, to prioritize their own well being when their lives are threatened?

So the author is doing something you don't like. Well, no one's forcing you to continue reading this are they? If it's too much for you you can just walk away.

Oh, yeah, killing people is fine, as long as you have a reason. :rolleyes:

Everyone has a reason. Sorry, you're the one who seems like you can't handle how it's being written. There Hucks have minimal moral ambiguity.

LoweGear

2011-01-28, 22:11

Hmm... do we still not have a Force NEXT for this month?

aers

2011-01-28, 22:12

I don't think there is one.

Nanya01

2011-01-28, 22:23

Oh, yeah, killing people is fine, as long as you have a reason. :rolleyes:

Everyone has a reason. Sorry, you're the one who seems like you can't handle how it's being written. There Hucks have minimal moral ambiguity.

Actually, Raiser's standing up for what's going on while most people are getting upset about the fact that Hayate, Vita and Erio is getting taken out and calling the Hucks pure evil and have no reason for this.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 22:33

Oh, yeah, killing people is fine, as long as you have a reason. :rolleyes:

Everyone has a reason. Sorry, you're the one who seems like you can't handle how it's being written. There Hucks have minimal moral ambiguity.

Raiser has a bit of a point. When is killing acceptable? I think most people would answer: "To protect your life, or the lives of others." I think the Hucks have that. They are fighting in self-defense, and to protect their lives, mostly.

Evil is doing bad things simply because you want to. Perhaps you desire power, or are greedy for money, and thus screw people over and kill them. That's evil.

The Hucks are banding together as a family to protect themselves, and keep themselves alive. I wouldn't call them good, obviously, but I don't think they are truly evil, either (barring an exception or two, heh).

00-Raiser

2011-01-28, 22:36

Oh, yeah, killing people is fine, as long as you have a reason. :rolleyes:

When you think about it, killing people isn't really that big a deal. Animals kill each other in the wild all the time. It's a part of nature. Killing in itself is not evil. There are plenty of instances where it's considered perfectly acceptable, and even righteous. For example, killing in self defense, the death penalty (this one is highly contested), and pretty much every single war that's ever existed. America is attacked and it's considered an act of pure evil, while America attacks some other country, and it's seen as a heroic act.

I'd say the reasons are entirely what determines if killing is 'good' or 'evil.'

EDIT: Kaijo nailed it.

Demi.

2011-01-28, 22:46

The happy smirks on their face as they murder, however... is inexcusable. And evil. Killing and enjoying it... That is not okay, not even if said killing is to save your life. As I recall, one of them killed an entire church just to prove a point? How can that even be justified in any way.

mielipuoli

2011-01-28, 22:48

Force NEXT (http://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=196066)

Kikaifan

2011-01-28, 22:53

Raiser has a bit of a point. When is killing acceptable? I think most people would answer: "To protect your life, or the lives of others." I think the Hucks have that. They are fighting in self-defense, and to protect their lives, mostly.

When most people argue that killing others to preserve life is acceptable, they mean if the others in question were actually the source of the threat to said lives.

The Hucks don't have that.

Seriously if I had a condition that required multiple organ transplants and I went around killing people for their organs would you sanction my behavior?

I would call that selfish and evil. You can say such a person has no choice, and I'd say yeah - the only acceptable choice is death.

Actually, Raiser's standing up for what's going on while most people are getting upset about the fact that Hayate, Vita and Erio is getting taken out and calling the Hucks pure evil and have no reason for this.

I don't know why anyone would bring the main characters into this, they sought the Hucks out (for the purpose of protecting others, yes, but they still have some responsibility for their situation) and what's more they almost certainly aren't even dead.

Nightengale

2011-01-28, 22:54

This thread. It's bloody bad for my heart.

On the issue of the Hucks, I don't think it's as simple as labelling them 'evil' or 'non-evil.' Really, their issue is that they're morally ambiguous, in due to the many circumstances that led them as they are.

However, morally ambiguous as they are, they aren't morally justified.

Are they evil? I think pretty much ya, really. They were forced into a situation beyond their will, and from that point, chose a route that was inexplicably the choice of lesser good.

Becoming mercs, killing for a living, engaging in criminal activities, etc. Those were things they chose to do.

If they weren't 'evil', forgive the obvious misappropriation of the term, they would chose the 'an hero' route that Thoma is intending.

itanshi1

2011-01-28, 23:03

Well this is still Nanoha. Nanoha from the very root is about awkward family structures finding cohesion. In this case they upped a lot of antes and the antagonists once again have a family structure that they fight to maintain despite problems.

You don't just break a family up.

Kaijo

2011-01-28, 23:11

When most people argue that killing others to preserve life is acceptable, they mean if the others in question were actually the source of the threat to said lives.

The Hucks don't have that.

Seriously if I had a condition that required multiple organ transplants and I went around killing people for their organs would you sanction my behavior?

I would call that selfish and evil. You can say such a person has no choice, and I'd say yeah - the only acceptable choice is death.

They are fighting, and killing, for self-preservation. Fighting to save their loved ones.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. There are two sides to every coin. You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to. Add your favorite cliche here.

Sure, from our point of view, it may seem evil. But if you had some people you cared about, and had the eclipse, I daresay you'd probably take a similar course of action.