View Full Version : Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)
Klashikari
2008-04-23, 14:32
2. They weren't under the orders of Irie. Not really.O_o Takano had bribed them into being her henchman, which is how she was allowed to kill Tomitake. They did lots of things for her that Irie knew nothing about.
You mistook what I said.
Obviously, the Yamainu was under the direct orders of Takano. However, Irie wasn'ta ware of that and pretty much thought they were working well and closely for the institute. Hence, they followed his orders as well, as long as it isn't hindering Takano's plan. (hence why i said "still")
Episode 4 of the first season demonstrates that the Yamainu was dispatched by Irie himself to seize Keiichi before he is left wild in the nature, going on rampage.
Kanon-kun
2008-04-23, 14:42
Then, why did you say my explanation was wrong? Takano could very well have told them to attempt to run over Keiichi to increase his paranoia. We already know she played around with it before, when she gave Rena and Shion those scrapbooks and told them all that stuff.
Klashikari
2008-04-23, 15:01
This is because Takano does not know which "kid" is going to go insane whatsoever. Indeed, she play the biggest part of RULE X, however she isn't omnipotent, and she was out of stage quickly (she doesn't play anymore mind toying after her "death" as the Yamainu is more busy with the preparations of the Disaster plan)
Also, It is pretty much shown that Irie was monitoring and worrying for Keiichi from quite a time, with that shot for a "flu" (which shouldn't be) and the fact that Rena and Mion probably contacted him more than once.
Considering what happened in the game, it is safe to assume they didn't do it on purpose.
Sterling01
2008-04-23, 15:20
Also in the game the Van honked for Keiichi to get out of the way
Kanon-kun
2008-04-23, 16:31
Well, I never said they were actually trying to hit him, just to scare him up. Takano is pretty twisted, so there's no way to know for certain if it was or was not her doing.
All the characters that go L5 have reasons that make them do so. People with Hinamizawa syndrome won't normally progress beyond L1; there needs to be something that drives them to it. For Shion it's her bitterness at losing her position as heir to the Sonozaki house as well as the boy she loved. For Rena it was her parents' messy divorce that she blamed herself for, as as the incident at her old school. For Satoko it was the fact that she believed that her parents didn't like her and saw her as a burden, which made her think that they were planning to kill her. For Keiichi its the suspicion that his friends are hiding things from him and that they might be involved with the Watanangashi murders.
Mion quite simply doesn't have something driving her towards L5 like all the other characters do.
Are you suggesting that she's being treated for it? As Meakashi-hen showed us, the Sonozakis don't even know of the existence of the Irie Institution or of Hinamizawa Syndrome. They are completely unaware of the fact that it was the Yamainu who kidnapped the minister's grandson. The only person from Hinamizawa that knows about them is Rika.
<this really should've been in the discussion thread>
Perhaps I should've rephased my question. I know very well what the requirments is, and how the other people got to L5. The question is, I wonder why while everyone else in the club had a chance to go L5 (except Rika for obvious reasons), Mion was never given the chance to do so. We see that when she was confined underground by Shion, she was heading towards the worst, but just didn't get to L5 yet.
As to there's no link between Yamainu and Sonozaki family...it's shown in Himatsubushi-hen that Yamainu wanted to know what the main family was aiming for during the kidnapping incident. Seeing the influences that the Sonozaki family has around the area, it's not suprising if they have established contact. It's also not something you would talk about with other people so the meeting of the three family can also be a show pu up by Mion/Oryou.
There's also suggestions that "successor mode" Mion is indeed a manifestaion of the syndrome. As shown, she has ordered her men to proceed with Shion's punishment, and also suggested to Oryou that Akasaka be elimated.
In the end it's probably due to her personality that she hasn't been L5...
Just as there's no suggestions that Takano ordered Yamainu to scare Keiichi, there's also no evidence to go against it. However, seeing how she keeps a low profile after her death, and just enjoys the fact that people were driven crazy by her as a by product (where she doesn't do any more than that), it's likely that she didn't have anything to do with it.
Sterling01
2008-04-23, 20:17
There's also suggestions that "successor mode" Mion is indeed a manifestaion of the syndrome. As shown, she has ordered her men to proceed with Shion's punishment, and also suggested to Oryou that Akasaka be elimated.
In the end it's probably due to her personality that she hasn't been L5...
There also the "Kei-chan protector mode" in Watanagashi-hen :heh::heh:
There also the "Kei-chan protector mode" in Watanagashi-hen :heh::heh:
Hmm, added to the fact that she knows the true nature of Rule Z, I guess it's not that suprising that she doesn't go L5...
Sterling01
2008-04-23, 20:31
Hmm, added to the fact that she knows the true nature of Rule Z, I guess it's not that suprising that she doesn't go L5...
Didn't she almost kill/choke Oryou when she confronted her about Satoshi when he first went missing?
Kanon-kun
2008-04-23, 22:00
Just as there's no suggestions that Takano ordered Yamainu to scare Keiichi, there's also no evidence to go against it. However, seeing how she keeps a low profile after her death, and just enjoys the fact that people were driven crazy by her as a by product (where she doesn't do any more than that), it's likely that she didn't have anything to do with it.
But we don't actually know that she's keeping a low profile. In fact, during the last arc, we see her being quite active, but just staying out of sight. I can't really see her just sitting around when she could make things so much worse. She needed Keiichi to believe he was actually in danger.
Klashikari
2008-04-24, 00:21
While a guinae pig going on rampage might help her, she doesn't need that fact to be done.
Tatarigoroshi is the best example: the madness wasn't exposed in public and such, and it was unfortunately focalised on the club members, especially Keiichi and Satoko, in a very ironic way (as the flipping paranoia was "Mion and Rena" fault here, not Takano's).
The other proof that she doesn't make them crazy "on the purpose to generate more chaos" is that she would make sure that the target doesn't go crazy and kill Rika before her. And that happened twice "at least" (as there is an infinitisimal amount of worlds). If she has control and such, Shion would be never able to kill Rika.
As shown in every arc, Takano and the Yamainu don't act at all until it is their turn to "shine" after her and Tomitake's death. In Minagoroshi, the only thing she does is that she stalks around Rika, and it was pretty much blatant that she didn't try to brainwash a kid of the club (and she has no way to know about their "reminiscence").
In matsuribayashi, everything goes very wrong as soon as Rike and her friends prepare their countermeasure with Irie etc.
Otherwise, much like what Lambda said in Umineko, Takano just sits back in her throne and throw everything she got for sure win afterwards.
In other words, Takano does that as a "hobby" and sadistic/guilty pleasure, as she knows what will happen if she does that. The very thought of someone going crazy because of the pathogen just relieves her and "more".
Kanon-kun
2008-04-24, 01:08
Exactly why she'd do it-for fun. Sitting around and not going out because you're supposed to be dead must be boring, so why wouldn't she want to have some fun. While a lot of people snap without her influence, Rena and Shion are both knowingly influenced by her. You could argue that Keiichi is as well in the Satoko-centric arc. Sure, he "snaps" and kills Teppei without any real influence from her-though, I don't really blame that much on the syndrome, since I think even normal people wanted to kill him,- but afterwards, he meets Takano, who helps add to his madness. She's supposed to be dead and keeping a low-profile, but she meets with him, asks about the body, and antagonizes him, then she has her people move the body, which makes things even worse for him.
<this really should've been in the discussion thread>
Perhaps I should've rephased my question. I know very well what the requirments is, and how the other people got to L5. The question is, I wonder why while everyone else in the club had a chance to go L5 (except Rika for obvious reasons), Mion was never given the chance to do so. We see that when she was confined underground by Shion, she was heading towards the worst, but just didn't get to L5 yet.
So the question is why Ryukishi07 includes a character that doesn't go L5 in the club. I suppose its in order to provide a contrast to the insanity of Shion. Besides, there were already two arcs in which one of the twins goes insane; Keiichi does so in two and Rena in one, so including third one would have probably been excessive. And since Mion was written as being stable, I suppose that Ryukishi07 has no reason to change things at this point.
As to there's no link between Yamainu and Sonozaki family...it's shown in Himatsubushi-hen that Yamainu wanted to know what the main family was aiming for during the kidnapping incident. Seeing the influences that the Sonozaki family has around the area, it's not suprising if they have established contact. It's also not something you would talk about with other people so the meeting of the three family can also be a show pu up by Mion/Oryou.
In Tsumihoboroshi-hen (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1283783&postcount=348) Mion tells Keiichi that the Sonozakis had no idea who was responsible for the kidnapping and that they had nothing to do with it. If they gave instructions to the Yamainu, then she wouldn't have been able to claim that they were uninvolved. Considering how honestly she's talking in that scene, I don't think that she's lying.
I don't remember that bit with the Yamainu; when was it exactly? In any case, it's in the interest of the Yamainu to make it seem that the Sonozakis kidnapped the grandson, since otherwise people might start investigating them, which would lead to problems since some members of Tokyo would have no doubt seen this as them overstepping their bounds. They could have covertly learned what the Sonozakis wanted and acted that way without the latter knowing anything so as to reinforce the illusion that the Sonozakis were behind it.
There's also suggestions that "successor mode" Mion is indeed a manifestaion of the syndrome. As shown, she has ordered her men to proceed with Shion's punishment, and also suggested to Oryou that Akasaka be elimated.
In the end it's probably due to her personality that she hasn't been L5...
Oryou acts in exactly the same way when she's dealing with outsiders. She can be very kind when she's with Mion or Rika (and also secretly wants the persecution of the Houjous to stop), however she has to present herself as cruel and merciless to the rest of the world in order to keep her subordinates loyal and her enemies too afraid to slight her. Since Mion is the successor, it makes sense for her to act in the same way since she'll have to replace Oryou one day and will need to present the same image of a merciless ruler to maintain control. She acts that way because she has to and the fact she immediately rips out her own fingernails after Shion's shows how much she regrets being forced to do that. I don't think that the syndrome has anything to do with her behavior.
tobiast88
2008-04-24, 05:24
Exactly why she'd do it-for fun. Sitting around and not going out because you're supposed to be dead must be boring, so why wouldn't she want to have some fun. While a lot of people snap without her influence, Rena and Shion are both knowingly influenced by her. You could argue that Keiichi is as well in the Satoko-centric arc. Sure, he "snaps" and kills Teppei without any real influence from her-though, I don't really blame that much on the syndrome, since I think even normal people wanted to kill him,- but afterwards, he meets Takano, who helps add to his madness. She's supposed to be dead and keeping a low-profile, but she meets with him, asks about the body, and antagonizes him, then she has her people move the body, which makes things even worse for him.No.
In Tatarigoroshi, the club members move the body, and hint so to Keiichi, which freaks him out because he doesn't get it.
Takano meets Keiichi by accident, and freaks him out because she's suppposed to be dead at the time: if she'd just drove by, he could say, oh she couldn't be dead I saw her driving, which would screw up her plan. So yes, here she does it on purpose, but for a reason.
No.
In Tatarigoroshi, the club members move the body, and hint so to Keiichi, which freaks him out because he doesn't get it.
Takano meets Keiichi by accident, and freaks him out because she's suppposed to be dead at the time: if she'd just drove by, he could say, oh she couldn't be dead I saw her driving, which would screw up her plan. So yes, here she does it on purpose, but for a reason.
She was supposed to be already dead for 24 hours according to the autopsy, so Keiichi seeing her alive at that point wouldn't have mattered since she ought to have been dead from way before the festival. What could have caused a problem is if Keiichi mentioned to the police that he saw her driving with a full trunk and Tomitake's bicycle in the back seat. Takano however doesn't worry about that happening and lets him know these things since she knows that Keiichi would be incriminating himself for Teppei's murder if he told the police about their encounter.
Kanon-kun
2008-04-24, 12:04
I don't know about the club members moving the body, because it's always been said that Takano was responsible.O_o
Point is, Takano was supposed to be dead. Even if Keiichi couldn't go to the police, why let him see her? Why talk about the body, why be rude and condescending to him, why let him notice Tomitake's bike in her car, and why let him see her after her supposed "death"? She could have just left him, but it looks like she decided to have some fun.
On an unrelated note, whatever happened to the little girl Keiichi shot and Takano's friends from the orphanage?O_o
Sterling01
2008-04-24, 12:11
I don't know about the club members moving the body, because it's always been said that Takano was responsible.O_o
Where does it say that?
On an unrelated note, whatever happened to the little girl Keiichi shot and Takano's friends from the orphanage?O_o
They went to Canada:heh::heh:
meaning the author completely forgot about them
Klashikari
2008-04-24, 14:11
I don't know about the club members moving the body, because it's always been said that Takano was responsible.O_o
It was never said like that. ever.
Mion knew that Keiichi wanted Teppei dead, and Shion knew as well, as Keiichi mimicked Satoshi. As result, the Sonozaki took care of the body, much like what they did in Tsumihoroboshi for Rina's and Teppei's corpses.
In Tatarigoroshi, the Sonozaki took care of Teppei's corpse while the club members tried to cover keiichi. It is pretty much explicit that all the club members knew what Keiichi did (except of course Satoko), hence why they tried to make an alibi, while the evidence was taken care of. Unfortunately, Keiichi was way too paranoiac.
Point is, Takano was supposed to be dead. Even if Keiichi couldn't go to the police, why let him see her? Why talk about the body, why be rude and condescending to him, why let him notice Tomitake's bike in her car, and why let him see her after her supposed "death"? She could have just left him, but it looks like she decided to have some fun.Because no one would ever believe him. Also, Takano "threatened" him, as she figured what he did (probably because of Irie, who saw Keiichi quite angry against Teppei). Because of the threat and the fact Keiichi wasn't at the festival, if he happens to call the police, he will not only discarded for Takano, but he will be immediately arrested as he won't be able to explain himself about the shovel and such.
Actually, Takano was annoyed by his questions. Despite his fatigue, Keiichi noticed the bike nevertherless, despite it wouldn't be that evident that it was tommy's bike.
By nature, Takano just had some fun and toyed with a possible L5 person. Otherwise, she didn't need Keiichi for the chaos at all, it was rather a coincidence which was convenient for her. But in the end, she doesn't have ANY control of the "prey", otherwise, she wouldn't lose idiotically in Watanagashi and Meakashi, because of Shion's insanity.
Kanon-kun
2008-04-24, 17:35
I've never heard anything about the body being moved by anyone other than Takano, who was the one who mentioned it in the first place.
And I'm not saying she needed him. She doesn't need to do most of the things she does, but rather does it for her own amusement or to see what happens.
Sterling01
2008-04-24, 17:40
The only dead body Takano moves is Tommy's
Kanon-kun
2008-04-24, 18:17
If that's the case, why doesn't somebody post proof?
If that's the case, why doesn't somebody post proof?
Why don't you post evidence for your claim that Takano moved it? The Sonozakis were the ones that covered for Satoshi when he murdered his aunt, so it makes sense that they'd do the same for Keiichi murdering Teppei, especially since Mion does the very same thing for Rena when she murders him. Plus, the fact that his friends were trying to create an alibi for him shows that they were trying to help him escape being arrested. Takano had nothing to do with this.
If that's the case, why doesn't somebody post proof?
Because no one have proof for any theory the body could be moving from takano, Mion, Shion etc... or keiichi could have digged the wrong hole.
Sterling01
2008-04-24, 19:21
The Sonozakis were the ones that covered for Satoshi when he murdered his aunt
IIRC It was Irie and Takano who did the covering...:heh::heh:
IIRC It was Irie and Takano who did the covering...:heh::heh:
Were the Yamainu the ones that planted the druggie that was later found dead in prison?
Kanon-kun
2008-04-24, 20:01
Because no one have proof for any theory the body could be moving from takano, Mion, Shion etc... or keiichi could have digged the wrong hole.
That's the thing though-some people are trying to say for certain that it was Mion who organized the hiding of Teppei's body. Yes, she did cover for Rena, but that was because she and the others had helped to hide the body originally.
My theory is from what was hinted at in the anime. Nothing was said by Rena and the others to suggest moving the body, though they did cover for him so he wouldn't be blamed for the crime, should it be discovered. If the Sonozaki family had taken the body, there wouldn't really be much reason to cover for him, since it would be likely Teppei would be considered that year's victim of the curse, even moreso, since Takano's body is presumably found. And it is Takano who actually mentions stuff about the body's location and being easily discoverable, which would suggest she had her people take care of it. She did seem pretty irritated at the thought that he did a sloppy job and the body being discovered.
Sterling01
2008-04-24, 20:13
Were the Yamainu the ones that planted the druggie that was later found dead in prison?
Yes I think that's what happened.
And it is Takano who actually mentions stuff about the body's location and being easily discoverable, which would suggest she had her people take care of it. She did seem pretty irritated at the thought that he did a sloppy job and the body being discovered.
Takano just says that if he didn't bury the body deep enough dogs would dig it. It was just her way of teasing him.
What she becomes irritated at was how long it took him to get "we didn't see each other tonight."
I'm surprised she just didn't kill him then.
Also never use just the anime to create a theory
Also never use just the anime to create a theory
YEs , they did a sloppy job for tatatrigoroshi-hen, that might be une of the reason we are still on that topic ( or at lease , it help)
Kanon-kun
2008-04-24, 20:44
Still, I'm not seeing anything at all that supports Mion being the one responsible for the body being moved, and no one has provided anything at all to even suggest that's true.
Sterling01
2008-04-24, 20:53
竜騎士07 said it, it's true
Kanon-kun
2008-04-24, 21:58
Then post proof already, instead of just saying things.
Isn't it clear enough when they all try to openly cover up for him ?
Why pretend he went to the matsuri with them, if not to say "we know, we're going to help you" ?
Keiichi is doing the exact same thing Satoshi did before he disappeared and Shion (and the others, this time) are covering for him in the exact same fashion.
Even with just the anime, you should have gotten that...
Isn't it clear enough when they all try to openly cover up for him ?
Why pretend he went to the matsuri with them, if not to say "we know, we're going to help you" ?
Keiichi is doing the exact same thing Satoshi did before he disappeared and Shion (and the others, this time) are covering for him in the exact same fashion.
Even with just the anime, you should have gotten that...
Every one agree on that; they try to give keiichi a alibi for the night of the Watanagashi matsuri, but giving a alibi and covering his trace is not the same.
By the way, how Mion and Rena could be making a alibi to Keiichi for the festival's night , if they are not themself on the site ( if they are realy the onr than did move the body) ?
Sterling01
2008-04-26, 01:16
Isn't it clear enough when they all try to openly cover up for him ?
Why pretend he went to the matsuri with them, if not to say "we know, we're going to help you" ?
Keiichi is doing the exact same thing Satoshi did before he disappeared and Shion (and the others, this time) are covering for him in the exact same fashion.
Even with just the anime, you should have gotten that...
But K1 was to fucked up at that point to see what they were trying to do
Klashikari
2008-04-26, 04:30
Every one agree on that; they try to give keiichi a alibi for the night of the Watanagashi matsuri, but giving a alibi and covering his trace is not the same.
Indeed, but actually, considering how it happened in Tsumihoroboshi, both actions are logically linked together, especially that giving an alibi isn't enough if the evidence can be found.
By the way, how Mion and Rena could be making a alibi to Keiichi for the festival's night , if they are not themself on the site ( if they are realy the onr than did move the body) ?
Considering what Mion said in Tsumihoroboshi, she didn't do that by herself, but she asked help from the henchemen of the Sonozaki (especially that I can hardly see both girls being able to figure where Teppei's corpse is, while the Sonozaki Yakuza obviously have manpowers and means to do that).
Mion had vastly the time for it, as Keiichi asked her to "kill Teppei", and also how Shion had that phone call. Actually, why would shion be at the Sonozaki estate at that time? Especially under that appearance?
Most likely that she is taking Mion's place for the alibi, while Mion is preparing the stuff to cover Keiichi.
Considering what Mion said in Tsumihoroboshi, she didn't do that by herself, but she asked help from the henchemen of the Sonozaki (especially that I can hardly see both girls being able to figure where Teppei's corpse is, while the Sonozaki Yakuza obviously have manpowers and means to do that).
I agree than the Sonozaki got the means and manpower to find the corpse, but that kind of thing are not so easy to do without being see, the corpse is not to far of the road.
Klashikari
2008-04-26, 06:45
I agree than the Sonozaki got the means and manpower to find the corpse, but that kind of thing are not so easy to do without being see, the corpse is not to far of the road.
It is just the same reason why Keiichi wasn't caught: they did it during the timeframe of the Festival.
Basically, the very span between Keiichi was going back home with takano, and the very end of the festival which ends very late at night.
Much like what Keiichi figured in his KOOL MODE (which was removed altogether in the anime), that area was hardly monitored.
orange541
2008-05-06, 04:37
Failed to find direct explanation from 07 himself in the game
so I think it's open for interpretation
srstarry
2008-06-25, 13:25
i found this somewhere
Super duper spoiler?
o.O
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4774/higurashici1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4774/higurashici1.2f37a284f6.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=99&i=higurashici1.jpg)
Klashikari
2008-06-25, 13:38
they are a LOT of things that are terribly wrong in that diagram:
1) they are NOT in a successive type of branch. It isn't because keiichi remembers something or not that the world will go to X or Y chapter
2) Events are NOT happening all the time. The diagram implies that the gang has the doll event all the time, and if one doesn't want to end in Watanagashi/Meakashi, Keiichi must give the doll to Mion.
This is wrong, as Rika demonstrated in Minagoroshi that Keiichi during this event, NEVER gave the doll to Mion. Hence, that would mean that any non onikakushi chapter must be Watanagashi/Meakashi before Minagoroshi, which is false.
3) Rina is always with Rena's dad, that's why in any chapter, Rena is going in the trash yard. The only thing is that Rina is just too greedy and hang around many targets.
So many wrongs in that, it is hardly possible to take it seriously.
The diagram only makes some sense if you consider the way the PS2 game is presented. Yes, events can kinda of be put in a linear fashion like that, but a lot of the descriptions/comments are wrong. And if you apply it to the PC game/manga/anime, then it's dead wrong.
Kinda lazy to point out all the wrong points, so I'll just point out some:
-As Klashikari pointed out, Keiichi remembering events aren't the triggers to avoid or enter a certain arc. For example, Keiichi does not have to remember the past to give the doll to Mion, as shown in Minagoroshi-hen. Remembering the past also isn't a trigger to enter Yoigoroshi-hen, as the requirment should be "can Keiichi stop the timed bomb"
-Also, Keiichi not showing up is not necessarily a bad end, provided Rule XYZ isn't in place.
-Solving Teppei's return isn't the only way to survial, as long as we have Matsuribayashi-hen.
-Saikoroshi-hen isn't presented by Frederica Berkenstel.
-If you must branch out all the possibilities, then it's missing alot of branches. For example, what about the world where Rika deals with Teppei herself?
-Also, Keiichi not showing up is not necessarily a bad end, provided Rule XYZ isn't in place.
-Solving Teppei's return isn't the only way to survial, as long as we have Matsuribayashi-hen.
-Saikoroshi-hen isn't presented by Frederica Berkenstel.
-If you must branch out all the possibilities, then it's missing alot of branches. For example, what about the world where Rika deals with Teppei herself?
1. Rika said than the Hinamizawa(s?) where Keichii were abscent were so boring, if I remember well well, she said than his abscence was the worse factor . Remember than Rules XYZ are always here, so unless it Matsuribayashi/Miotsukushi it alwasys BAD end.
2.Dealing with Teppei only affect Rule X, not Rule Y.
3. I don't know saikoroshi, so I can't write about it.
4 It lack branch and it got too much error (how much time will we need to say than Takano did not shoot Hanyuu in Miotsukushi-hen)
Anyone than did that graphic seem to have used wikipedia for the PS2 only chapter.
1. Rika said than the Hinamizawa(s?) where Keichii were abscent were so boring, if I remember well well, she said than his abscence was the worse factor . Remember than Rules XYZ are always here, so unless it Matsuribayashi/Miotsukushi it alwasys BAD end.
2.Dealing with Teppei only affect Rule X, not Rule Y.
3. I don't know saikoroshi, so I can't write about it.
4 It lack branch and it got too much error (how much time will we need to say than Takano did not shoot Hanyuu in Miotsukushi-hen)
Anyone than did that graphic seem to have used wikipedia for the PS2 only chapter.
1. Rules XYZ was in Miotsukushi-hen and it's not present in Saikoroshi-hen. Keiichi also doesn't show up in Saikoroshi-hen. Is Saikoroshi-hen the worst world? Hardly.
2. You don't need to deal with Teppei (in a sense, to rally the whole village together) to get the perfect ending, as shown in Matsuribayashi-hen.
Super n00b question, but why did Takano want to destroy the village? The disease that she wanted to study was only found in the village, and hence the only place she could research it.
My personal theories are that maybe she wanted this to be a national event so that so would crave her name (and her grandfather's) into history, hence become a god.
Or she meant it becoming a god in a literal sense. Like using the injection to manipulate people into worshiping her. This doesn't seem likely since the parasite itself is not prone to mass distribution. It can only take effect in very specific conditions. Did she found a way to bypass that?
Sorry if this has been asked before but I didn't understand the answer that was given in "questions answered" thread or in the anime. Help appreciated.
Klashikari
2008-07-04, 12:40
the destruction of the village has a lot of purpose:
-It proves that there isn't any other way and high ups have to admit Dr. Takano's theory
-It fulfills the "god" wish that Dr. Takano passed to Mio
The principal effect of it is that she will have a undeniable theory: nothing to stand against, and her theory pretty much resorted to the extreme, but in the same time, it "saves" the whole country against that "parasite".
She absolutely doesn't care much about the syndrome itself, though they can already research on it, even if Hinamizawa is wiped of the surface of earth (as implied by Nomura, who prepared a lab for her etc)
the destruction of the village has a lot of purpose:
-It proves that there isn't any other way and high ups have to admit Dr. Takano's theory
-It fulfills the "god" wish that Dr. Takano passed to Mio
The principal effect of it is that she will have a undeniable theory: nothing to stand against, and her theory pretty much resorted to the extreme, but in the same time, it "saves" the whole country against that "parasite".
She absolutely doesn't care much about the syndrome itself, though they can already research on it, even if Hinamizawa is wiped of the surface of earth (as implied by Nomura, who prepared a lab for her etc)
I don't think that Takano is trying to prove Hifumi's theory by gassing the village. After all, she kills everyone without them going crazy so that doesn't provide any evidence that it was right. All Takano is trying to do is to lash out at the people she thinks were responsible for binning her grandfather's research. By forcing them to order the extermination of the village, these people will lose much of their influence or be forced to resign. Nomura is simply manipulating Takano so that she can help the faction she serves gain more power by weakening the opposing faction; Takano understands that, but that's the only way she can think of to have her revenge against the people who hurt her grandpa.
In the end, Takano's sole motivation was to vindicate her grandfather. She only pursued her research in order to accomplish that. Since it failed, she had no qualms about abandoning it and trying to have her revenge by gassing the village instead.
And Hifumi wasn't being literal when he talked about gods; he simply meant that by making an important discovery one would be remembered by future generations. Gassing the village doesn't accomplish that either (especially since nobody would ever know why the death of everyone in the village occured).
By the way, there was something I was wondering about. In Higurashi there are two cover stories for the events in Hinamizawa; one for the general public and one for the Tokyo members that don't belong to the faction Nomura serves. The one aimed at the general public leaves all the murders unexplained/attributes them to the Sonozakis and Rika's murder is blamed on religious fanatics. The Great Hinamizawa Disaster is blamed on a volcanic eruption.
The cover story aimed at Tokyo members leaves most murders unexplained, however it states that Tomitake and Takano discovered that Irie had embezzled a huge amount of money from the Irie Institution. Irie had them murdered because of that discovery but then couldn't handle the pressure/realized he was discovered and used drugs to commit suicide. After Rika's death the Great Hinamizawa Disaster occurs because the Yamainu gas the village. Does anyone know who gets blamed for Rika's disembowelment in this scenario, or is that left unexplained? Furthermore, is my summary accurate?
Also, I think that Nomura has Takano killed after Takano gasses the village. After all, setting up an entire research facility for Takano would cost quite a bit of money. Takano was previously able to get that money from Koizumi because the latter felt guilty for abandoning Hifumi, but there's no evidence that Nomura has either access to or the desire to spend such funds. Furthermore, if Takano is considered to be dead as part of Nomura's cover story to the opposing faction in Tokyo, then having her pop up alive and well later (which would be inevitable if she got a position as prominent as the head of her own facility), would allow them to realize that they'd been tricked and that the Hinamizawa incident was a ploy to allow their political enemies to gain power. Also, Takano is a key witness; if for some reason she decided to talk (e.g. after being captured by the opposing faction after they discover she's still alive), then she'd be able to lay the blame for the murder of 2000 civilians on both Nomura and her entire faction. Since Takano is already legally dead, Nomura wouldn't even have her men stage it so as to seem an accident or suicide; all she'd need is to have her killed and dispose the body somewhere where it wouldn't be found. By doing that, she'd eliminate the key witness that could implicate her, remove any chance of someone discovering that Takano was still alive after her supposed death and also would not have to spend vast sums to fulfill the promises she made to her. What do people think of this theory?
Dreamiel
2008-07-04, 15:50
Also, I think that Nomura has Takano killed after Takano gasses the village. After all, setting up an entire research facility for Takano would cost quite a bit of money. Takano was previously able to get that money from Koizumi because the latter felt guilty for abandoning Hifumi, but there's no evidence that Nomura has either access to or the desire to spend such funds. Furthermore, if Takano is considered to be dead as part of Nomura's cover story to the opposing faction in Tokyo, then having her pop up alive and well later (which would be inevitable if she got a position as prominent as the head of her own facility), would allow them to realize that they'd been tricked and that the Hinamizawa incident was a ploy to allow their political enemies to gain power. Also, Takano is a key witness; if for some reason she decided to talk (e.g. after being captured by the opposing faction after they discover she's still alive), then she'd be able to lay the blame for the murder of 2000 civilians on both Nomura and her entire faction. Since Takano is already legally dead, Nomura wouldn't even have her men stage it so as to seem an accident or suicide; all she'd need is to have her killed and dispose the body somewhere where it wouldn't be found. By doing that, she'd eliminate the key witness that could implicate her, remove any chance of someone discovering that Takano was still alive after her supposed death and also would not have to spend vast sums to fulfill the promises she made to her. What do people think of this theory?
I think it makes sense, nice thinking :)
Considering the state Takano was in both times we see her at the end, I figure she would have only lived a few days at best. She looked to be heading rather quickly to L5 stage. Either she would have killed herself ("throat itches") or one of her men would have taken her down...seeing that she is going crazy.
There is the off chance she went to a hospital, but without the clinic and with people looking for a coverup, she'd die there one way or another.
Klashikari
2008-07-04, 16:10
I don't think that Takano is trying to prove Hifumi's theory by gassing the village. After all, she kills everyone without them going crazy so that doesn't provide any evidence that it was right. All Takano is trying to do is to lash out at the people she thinks were responsible for binning her grandfather's research. By forcing them to order the extermination of the village, these people will lose much of their influence or be forced to resign. Nomura is simply manipulating Takano so that she can help the faction she serves gain more power by weakening the opposing faction; Takano understands that, but that's the only way she can think of to have her revenge against the people who hurt her grandpa.
In the end, Takano's sole motivation was to vindicate her grandfather. She only pursued her research in order to accomplish that. Since it failed, she had no qualms about abandoning it and trying to have her revenge by gassing the village instead.
That's that, I guess my wording was quite poor here. Actually, the simple fact that the gassing is required just equal to the point that the higher ups are forced to realize their "mistake", and then, as extended result, not only there is some aknowledgement (which was already half way here) but also, as you say, a very severe consequence on the Alphabet project party, which is as well her revenge.
And Hifumi wasn't being literal when he talked about gods; he simply meant that by making an important discovery one would be remembered by future generations. Gassing the village doesn't accomplish that either (especially since nobody would ever know why the death of everyone in the village occured).That's true, the thing is that Takano just doesn't care much of whatever would happen. Furthermore, her death was mystified as a prophetic entity which most likely pleased her even more. The whole deal with god and fear is actually how her twisted mind turned Hifumi's plea. She doesn't need to be recognized publicly, the sole disaster is self satisfying for her.
Does anyone know who gets blamed for Rika's disembowelment in this scenario, or is that left unexplained? Furthermore, is my summary accurate? As far as we can get, there wasn't any explanation for Rika's murder, and it was the point that Akasaka and Ooishi needed years later to understand the whole deal.
Also, I think that Nomura has Takano killed after Takano gasses the village. After all, setting up an entire research facility for Takano would cost quite a bit of money. Takano was previously able to get that money from Koizumi because the latter felt guilty for abandoning Hifumi, but there's no evidence that Nomura has either access to or the desire to spend such funds.As the project was possible, it is pretty much evident that Nomura didn't care at all of the research, yes. She basically used false promise to seduce takano in this scheme. Furthermore, if Takano is considered to be dead as part of Nomura's cover story to the opposing faction in Tokyo, then having her pop up alive and well later (which would be inevitable if she got a position as prominent as the head of her own facility), would allow them to realize that they'd been tricked and that the Hinamizawa incident was a ploy to allow their political enemies to gain power. Also, Takano is a key witness; if for some reason she decided to talk (e.g. after being captured by the opposing faction after they discover she's still alive), then she'd be able to lay the blame for the murder of 2000 civilians on both Nomura and her entire faction. Since Takano is already legally dead, Nomura wouldn't even have her men stage it so as to seem an accident or suicide; all she'd need is to have her killed and dispose the body somewhere where it wouldn't be found. By doing that, she'd eliminate the key witness that could implicate her, remove any chance of someone discovering that Takano was still alive after her supposed death and also would not have to spend vast sums to fulfill the promises she made to her. What do people think of this theory?The problem is that I'm not even sure if Takano is considered "dead" by Tokyo: she is leading the Yamainu and the SDF in Hinamizawa, so it would be rather awkward for her to be considered dead, despite she is on the field.
Of course there is another odd question involved here. Why is the situation changed for the times Mi/Shion kill Rika. The village is not killed in these arcs to our knowledge. Thus the question is, what became of Takano and her plans? Obviously the "queen" is dead thus the research will end in any event, but the towns folk don't go crazy with the queen gone. What does this say about Takano's theories?
Considering the state Takano was in both times we see her at the end, I figure she would have only lived a few days at best. She looked to be heading rather quickly to L5 stage. Either she would have killed herself ("throat itches") or one of her men would have taken her down...seeing that she is going crazy.
There is the off chance she went to a hospital, but without the clinic and with people looking for a coverup, she'd die there one way or another.
However, in the game they have never shown that Takano was affected by the syndrome. Not only that, being one of the researchers, you would expect tht she is protected against the syndrome like the others, such as Irie or Tomitake (except his last visit). If she wasn't protected and had a breakdown, she would've exhibited symptoms on the night she met Nomura.
It's becuase of that, and the fact that she escaped from the clinic days after the operation in Matsuribayashi-hen, that people speculate that Tomitake only used the syndrome as an excuse to save her.
In my opinion, the syndrome isn't useful, even with Takano's wrong theories about the queen carrier, to be used in warfare. I think regardless the outcome, the research project will be terminated (deadline set by nomura). As to Takano's fate, there's a good chance that she would be disposed off afterwards by Nomura/Yamainu; even higher chance when she failed in Wata/Mea. In nature, we sometimes see a "baby bird" gets kicked off by a "cuckoo", only to be eaten by "mountain dogs" .
As far as we can get, there wasn't any explanation for Rika's murder, and it was the point that Akasaka and Ooishi needed years later to understand the whole deal.
I was wondering if an explanation was provided to Tokyo for her death, such as pinning it on Irie. Though considering the fact Rika is killed after Irie, that probably wouldn't do that.
As the project was possible, it is pretty much evident that Nomura didn't care at all of the research, yes. She basically used false promise to seduce takano in this scheme. The problem is that I'm not even sure if Takano is considered "dead" by Tokyo: she is leading the Yamainu and the SDF in Hinamizawa, so it would be rather awkward for her to be considered dead, despite she is on the field.
Doesn't Nomura use Takano's and Tomitake's deaths to discredit Irie and bring suspicion upon the Irie Institution so that Irie won't be able to interfere before he is assassinated? (Though he doesn't try to do so because he trusts Okonogi.) Perhaps the members of Tokyo not in on the conspiracy were made to think that Okonogi was directly acting upon the orders from Tokyo to gas the village.
Of course there is another odd question involved here. Why is the situation changed for the times Mi/Shion kill Rika. The village is not killed in these arcs to our knowledge. Thus the question is, what became of Takano and her plans? Obviously the "queen" is dead thus the research will end in any event, but the towns folk don't go crazy with the queen gone. What does this say about Takano's theories?
Presumably something similar to Matsuribayashi-hen takes place. Takano reacts with disbelief at the idea that her beloved grandfather's theories are incorrect. The stress may well lead her to go L5. Nomura realizes that Takano is useless to her now that the Carrier Queen theory has been disproved and can't be used to damage the Koizumi faction. Presumably she then orders Okonogi to eliminate her just as she does in Matsuribayashi-hen after Takano becomes a liability. If Takano is killed, perhaps they can stick to their original of pretending that Irie murdered both Takano and Tomitake and avoid any closer scrutiny to their plan to gas the village.
However, in the game they have never shown that Takano was affected by the syndrome. Not only that, being one of the researchers, you would expect tht she is protected against the syndrome like the others, such as Irie or Tomitake (except his last visit). If she wasn't protected and had a breakdown, she would've exhibited symptoms on the night she met Nomura.
It's becuase of that, and the fact that she escaped from the clinic days after the operation in Matsuribayashi-hen, that people speculate that Tomitake only used the syndrome as an excuse to save her.
In the anime Takano is quite blatantly suffering from the syndrome in Matsuribayashi-hen. Since that doesn't conflict with the game, I'm guessing that she really gets it. Though I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't progress in the worlds where her plan succeeds; in Matsuribayashi-hen after all she only develops symptoms after her plan fails completely and Okonogi asks her to kill herself.
...In the anime Takano is quite blatantly suffering from the syndrome in Matsuribayashi-hen. Since that doesn't conflict with the game, I'm guessing that she really gets it. Though I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't progress in the worlds where her plan succeeds; in Matsuribayashi-hen after all she only develops symptoms after her plan fails completely and Okonogi asks her to kill herself.
I wonder about how much it is true than Okonogi ask Takano to kill herself, after all, every one under a high level of the the Hinamizawa Syndrome did imagine/misunderstand/overthink about what happen around them. Maybe Okonogi did only ask her to chose the way she will end, or to take care of her dirty work herself ?
I wonder about how much it is true than Okonogi ask Takano to kill herself, after all, every one under a high level of the the Hinamizawa Syndrome did imagine/misunderstand/overthink about what happen around them. Maybe Okonogi did only ask her to chose the way she will end, or to take care of her dirty work herself ?
I don't think that scene was from Takano's perspective. After all, we see Okonogi saying that he's being to soft to her after Takano has already ran off. And it makes sense for him and Nomura to want her dead, since that way they'd be able to lay the blame for the entire incident on her and she wouldn't be able to contradict them.
In the anime Takano is quite blatantly suffering from the syndrome in Matsuribayashi-hen. Since that doesn't conflict with the game, I'm guessing that she really gets it. Though I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't progress in the worlds where her plan succeeds; in Matsuribayashi-hen after all she only develops symptoms after her plan fails completely and Okonogi asks her to kill herself.
I don't take these anime-original content seriously, even for season 2. For example, the way the Tanashi couple survived in the hidden-ED of the anime is impossible in the game. (In game)Even at the scene where Okonogi revealed that it was Nomura who were actually pulling all the strings, she was only shown to be really surprised and tried to salvage the situation franticly. She didn't hear voices or hallucinate or become paranoid of people trying to get her (okay except Okonogi, who told him that he was supposed to do the job, or the group members, who has been battling her throughout) If she was really L5 at that time, I doubt she would've accepted Tomitake's help right away (at least put up a fight for a bit like Rena did in Tsumihoroboshi-hen)
The way I see it, Okonogi telling Takano to suicide at the end can seen as his sense of loyalty towards Takano (sure he was bribed, but his loyalty can seen throughout the series. Only a couple times, such as prolonging the fight with Akasaka and challenging Mion to a fight, that he did things that he wanted to personaly do). One could say that perhaps he didn't want to dirty his own hands, but seeing how he was acting when Baninu showed up, you can tell he was trying work things out legally by cooperating. Knowing that Takano, the "mastermind" would probably be killed by Nomura/Tokyo, I think it's rational for him to give Takano a choice. After all, he also fired the warning shot to get Takano to run away when she was being undecisive.
However, in the game they have never shown that Takano was affected by the syndrome. Not only that, being one of the researchers, you would expect tht she is protected against the syndrome like the others, such as Irie or Tomitake (except his last visit). If she wasn't protected and had a breakdown, she would've exhibited symptoms on the night she met Nomura.
It's becuase of that, and the fact that she escaped from the clinic days after the operation in Matsuribayashi-hen, that people speculate that Tomitake only used the syndrome as an excuse to save her.
Are oncologists immune from cancer? Are family doctors immune from the flu? Are stock brokers immune from bankruptcy? To say she was a researcher and hence automatically immune is illogical. It is plainly stated that if you stay in the village for prolonged periods of time you are infected (or colonized) by the parasite. The disease itself does not manifest until levels of extreme emotional stress is reached. It makes perfect sense that she was infected along with everyone else (including her goons), and when she had lost the disease broke through.
Even without the disease, its clear she's batshit crazy. Just going that far to validate a theory is delusion on a grand scale, she belongs in a crazy house no matter how you slice it.
In my opinion, the syndrome isn't useful, even with Takano's wrong theories about the queen carrier, to be used in warfare.
If restrictions on locale can be overcome then this would be the ultimate form of biological warfare. Untraceable (no need to worry about human rights restrictions), controllable (if the queen theory was correct), and potent (esp in a stressful situation like war). If this existed IRL it would be researched and weaponized in a heartbeat. The USA was willing to look into outlandish ideas like the "gay bomb", you think they would pass up the chance to cause mass psychosis?
On a side note: I guess Rika saving Tanako's parents isn't canon, but it was a nice touch. If it wasn't for that tragedy maybe Tanako wouldn't be the crazy bitch she turned out to be.
Are oncologists immune from cancer? Are family doctors immune from the flu? Are stock brokers immune from bankruptcy? To say she was a researcher and hence automatically immune is illogical. It is plainly stated that if you stay in the village for prolonged periods of time you are infected (or colonized) by the parasite. The disease itself does not manifest until levels of extreme emotional stress is reached. It makes perfect sense that she was infected along with everyone else (including her goons), and when she had lost the disease broke through.
Even without the disease, its clear she's batshit crazy. Just going that far to validate a theory is delusion on a grand scale, she belongs in a crazy house no matter how you slice it.
They have developed a prophylactic medicine for the disease. Takano actually sends Tomitake a fake version of it before his latest visit so that he can be susceptible to the pathogen. Irie is truly shocked upon discovering that Tomitake has gone L5 precisely because he ought to be immune. But then again the prophylactic medicine might only apply to people that had never been exposed to the disease in the fist place. Takano would have had to visit Hinamizawa, and thus become infected, before the development of that treatment. Or perhaps the treatment does work but simply hasn't been perfected yet, which means that Takano goes L5 when subjected to sufficient stress anyway.
If restrictions on locale can be overcome then this would be the ultimate form of biological warfare. Untraceable (no need to worry about human rights restrictions), controllable (if the queen theory was correct), and potent (esp in a stressful situation like war). If this existed IRL it would be researched and weaponized in a heartbeat. The USA was willing to look into outlandish ideas like the "gay bomb", you think they would pass up the chance to cause mass psychosis?
Yes. The idea was to weaponize the pathogen and use it to infect the enemy. Then at war you could simply spread the chemical that induces development of L5 and the enemy population would go insane and kill itself. The advantage of such a weapon is that the chemical itself would be completely harmless to your own, uninfected, troops and civilian population, which would negate the main disadvantage of biological weapons, namely the fact that there's no way to control who they'll infect once they're released.
On a side note: I guess Rika saving Tanako's parents isn't canon, but it was a nice touch. If it wasn't for that tragedy maybe Tanako wouldn't be the crazy bitch she turned out to be.
That scene was canonical. Bernkastel does save Miyoko's parents in one of the worlds and she grows up to be a normal and sane person. However that doesn't affect any of the worlds that Rika has lived in.
I thought the prophylaxis shot was to suppress the virus, not a vaccine or cure. And even then if enough stress was placed, the disease will still come through.
My point was that Tanako should be in a nut house whether or not she had the disease. It was just poetic justice that she fell victim to the very evil that she was spreading (she likes making people crazy).
If she was truly crazy, they wouldn't have to spend so much time explaining her rationale, and show her inside feelings in Matsuribayashi-hen to contrast her actions in Minagoroshi-hen (Takano trying to get Tomitake to join her side, Matsuribayashi vs Minagoroshi version). As the story has explained, she's just "crazy" because of her traumatized childhood, sense of desire to repay Hifumi, and her intrests in occult stories. She's quite normal when they showed her inner emotions.
As for the disease, it's established that it could not be used outside Hinamizawa, and thus deemed useless by Tokyo. That's the reason why the whole operation was getting shut down and she had to hurry/change her plans to prove to the world that Hifumi's work was genuine.
If she was truly crazy, they wouldn't have to spend so much time explaining her rationale, and show her inside feelings in Matsuribayashi-hen to contrast her actions in Minagoroshi-hen (Takano trying to get Tomitake to join her side, Matsuribayashi vs Minagoroshi version). As the story has explained, she's just "crazy" because of her traumatized childhood, sense of desire to repay Hifumi, and her intrests in occult stories. She's quite normal when they showed her inner emotions.
You think killing a whole village is something a sane person would do? They showed her traumatic childhood not to justify her actions, but to provide a reason for her insanity. I think you missed the point of that piece completely.
Another point:
Rika never tried to save her parents, yet she tries with all her might to save everyone else. I really don't get that, her parents knew all about the experiments and they might have been more help than her friends that might not have believed her.
You think killing a whole village is something a sane person would do? They showed her traumatic childhood not to justify her actions, but to provide a reason for her insanity. I think you missed the point of that piece completely.
Another point:
Rika never tried to save her parents, yet she tries with all her might to save everyone else. I really don't get that, her parents knew all about the experiments and they might have been more help than her friends that might not have believed her.
It depends on how you take it. On the surface it seems like she's killing 2000 people to prove a point, but hidden beneath is her sense of duty to repay her lifesaver. She is shown to be crazy in the anime and in Minagoroshi-hen, but Matsuribayashi-hen definitely puts it in another perspective. It's not something one can get by only watching the anime.
As to why Rika never tried to save her parents...one can speculate that she actually did tried, but eventually gave up after all the failure attempts. Add with the fact that she has less time for every new world she's in, and the whole "setting up the gameboard" part, Furude Couple remains to be the victim for the 3rd year curse. Furthurmore, no one takes her revelations seriously anyway (until they developed loop memory).
If she was truly crazy, they wouldn't have to spend so much time explaining her rationale, and show her inside feelings in Matsuribayashi-hen to contrast her actions in Minagoroshi-hen (Takano trying to get Tomitake to join her side, Matsuribayashi vs Minagoroshi version). As the story has explained, she's just "crazy" because of her traumatized childhood, sense of desire to repay Hifumi, and her intrests in occult stories. She's quite normal when they showed her inner emotions.
The syndrome and inner motives don't have to be mutually exclusive. After all, the pathogen itself doesn't become active unless the patient himself has reasons that cause it to emerge. Both Rena and Shion have underlying problems that drive them to insanity, while Mion doesn't and thus doesn't develop it. Perhaps the syndrome is what tips Takano over the edge.
In any case though, we can see that she's a psychopath from at least the time she starts working in Hinamizawa. She actually seems to derive pleasure from vivisecting people. At least Irie sees it as a necessary evil and feels guilt about what he does; Takano revels in it.
As for the disease, it's established that it could not be used outside Hinamizawa, and thus deemed useless by Tokyo. That's the reason why the whole operation was getting shut down and she had to hurry/change her plans to prove to the world that Hifumi's work was genuine.
Is that actually said in the game? Because based on the TIPS and the anime, I had assumed that the only reason that the research was halted is because Koizumi's faction loses power with his death and their opponents decide to cease funding his projects in order to utilize the funds themselves. I never got the impression that the research itself was considered a dead end.
Another point:
Rika never tried to save her parents, yet she tries with all her might to save everyone else. I really don't get that, her parents knew all about the experiments and they might have been more help than her friends that might not have believed her.
Rika does try to save everyone. We see that she tries to save Akasaka for example (and she succeeds in some of the worlds). As Rias said, she probably did try but simply couldn't do it.
It depends on how you take it. On the surface it seems like she's killing 2000 people to prove a point, but hidden beneath is her sense of duty to repay her lifesaver. She is shown to be crazy in the anime and in Minagoroshi-hen, but Matsuribayashi-hen definitely puts it in another perspective. It's not something one can get by only watching the anime. You're missing the point. You can be insane without having this fictional syndrome. Killing 2000 (innocent) people just to prove a point IS insane. The whole piece on her childhood is to provide the background for her obvious insanity NOT to rationalize it (how do you rationalize killing a whole village in the first place?). Like I said you missed the point.
"hey gibits why did you kill all those innocent people?"
"well, I had a rough childhood, and my relatives were insulted. And you know I have a really strong sense of duty."
"Oh, I guess that's ok then, see you later"
See how twisted that is?
As to why Rika never tried to save her parents...one can speculate that she actually did tried, but eventually gave up after all the failure attempts. Add with the fact that she has less time for every new world she's in, and the whole "setting up the gameboard" part, Furude Couple remains to be the victim for the 3rd year curse. Furthurmore, no one takes her revelations seriously anyway (until they developed loop memory).
Hmm that makes sense. I guess she could only work with the people that have accumulated enough loop memories to avoid the pitfalls of the last world.
Here's another one:
That damn doll. How is it that this doll affects events things in the past? Why is it Shion hates Satoko in 2 arcs, but in others she loves her? And not just that, Shion had been looking out for Satoko for a while, before that doll was even given to Kei (if this event even happens). Shion's actions I've always found to be the most puzzling since the timelines don't seem to match cross-dimensions.
You're missing the point. You can be insane without having this fictional syndrome. Killing 2000 (innocent) people just to prove a point IS insane. The whole piece on her childhood is to provide the background for her obvious insanity NOT to rationalize it (how do you rationalize killing a whole village in the first place?). Like I said you missed the point.
"hey gibits why did you kill all those innocent people?"
"well, I had a rough childhood, and my relatives were insulted. And you know I have a really strong sense of duty."
"Oh, I guess that's ok then, see you later"
See how twisted that is?
Many had try to rationalyze the killing of innocents or others kind of massacre, if they had history on their side, it possible.
You could think of any of old war when the capture of a town would always end with rapping, killing and destruction. On more rescent time we could take the operation when the Allied tryamphibious attack at Diep. That attack was doomed from the start, but '' lesson would be learn'' for the real invasion.
Klashikari
2008-07-06, 02:20
You're missing the point. You can be insane without having this fictional syndrome. Killing 2000 (innocent) people just to prove a point IS insane. The whole piece on her childhood is to provide the background for her obvious insanity NOT to rationalize it (how do you rationalize killing a whole village in the first place?). Like I said you missed the point.
"hey gibits why did you kill all those innocent people?"
"well, I had a rough childhood, and my relatives were insulted. And you know I have a really strong sense of duty."
"Oh, I guess that's ok then, see you later"
See how twisted that is?
Remember that ideals, morals and such are not universal and can differ greatly between individuals. Even if the greatest sin is seen by the majority, depending of the circumstance, the said culprit might be "sane" in spirit, but only deviant in term of reasoning. That doesn't mean that person loses all their senses, nor it justifies X or Y fact/action.
Even in our era, wars still rage, you got needless and ridiculous tragedies, yet we got our "set" morals etc, which aren't approved by the whole humanity.
In that sense, the whole point is: Takano was absolutely not in some madness. You can say she is "mad", as she is doing something absurd and unforgivable, but essentially speaking, she has all her head. When someone is ready to do anything for an objective, you can be surprised how that person can do in some extent. "The end justifies the means", kinda.
That damn doll. How is it that this doll affects events things in the past? Why is it Shion hates Satoko in 2 arcs, but in others she loves her? And not just that, Shion had been looking out for Satoko for a while, before that doll was even given to Kei (if this event even happens). Shion's actions I've always found to be the most puzzling since the timelines don't seem to match cross-dimensions.
1) The doll has only an impact on the present. It is basically the flag that will lead to Watanagashi/meakashi type of scenario, which was defeated only in Minagoroshi-hen (en perhaps Miotsukushi-hen).
2) Because it is most likely a "random" factor. This is pretty much how keiichi learns the truth: it isn't constant and might differ, depending of the "dice roll".
In some world, Shion remembers of her promise she made with Satoshi, when he asked her to take care of Satoko before killing Houjou Tamae. In other scenario, she didn't remember and the doll just activate her madness.
2) Because it is most likely a "random" factor. This is pretty much how keiichi learns the truth: it isn't constant and might differ, depending of the "dice roll".
In some world, Shion remembers of her promise she made with Satoshi, when he asked her to take care of Satoko before killing Houjou Tamae. In other scenario, she didn't remember and the doll just activate her madness.
She seem to remember her promise in the Himanizawa ''post Meakashi hen'' so we don't know is it a uncounsious factor , a memory going to every shion to each futur Himanizawa, or a random factor, but I thend to think the ''Post Meakashi-hen'' factor it the right answer. If we look at the PS2 version, every ''post Meakashi-hen'' chapter ( exept maybe Tsumihoroboshi-hen, were shion is so little seen), shionis very considerate and take care of Satoko, a consern not seen in any ''pre-meakashi-hen'' chapter.
Sorry but I don't believe in moral relativism, I believe in right and wrong. But I guess many psychopaths have ended up in jail instead of psych wards. And I agree that is where they belong.
She seem to remember her promise in the Himanizawa ''post Meakashi hen'' so we don't know is it a uncounsious factor , a memory going to every shion to each futur Himanizawa, or a random factor, but I thend to think the ''Post Meakashi-hen'' factor it the right answer. If we look at the PS2 version, every ''post Meakashi-hen'' chapter ( exept maybe Tsumihoroboshi-hen, were shion is so little seen), shionis very considerate and take care of Satoko, a consern not seen in any ''pre-meakashi-hen'' chapter.
This explanation doesn't make temporal sense, since in the worlds where Shion remembers the promise, she has been taking care of Satoko for a year already. So not only would the memories have to transverse different worlds, but it would also have to go back in time.
The fact that Shion seems to learn post Meakashi-hen, seems to imply that this memory can change the past, not just the future, but what would have happened in Minagoroshi if Kei had given the doll to Rena? Shion already cared for Satoko since Satoshi left a year ago, would things just go bad from there? Note in Meakashi she was out of the picture, and hence didn't care for Satoko.
This explanation doesn't make temporal sense, since in the worlds where Shion remembers the promise, she has been taking care of Satoko for a year already. So not only would the memories have to transverse different worlds, but it would also have to go back in time. A much as Keiichi remembering killing Rena and Mion in Tsumihoroboshi-hen, or Keiichi and rena having some kind of flach-back in Minnagoroshi-hen.
A much as Keiichi remembering killing Rena and Mion in Tsumihoroboshi-hen, or Keiichi and rena having some kind of flach-back in Minnagoroshi-hen.
But all of that loop memory occurred in the loop. Shion's change of heart occurred one year before it.
But all of that loop memory occurred in the loop. Shion's change of heart occurred one year before it.
There's no evidence that the other characters (consciously or subconsciously) remembering things has anything to do with Hanyuu transferring her and Rika's memories to other worlds. Both of them after all view Keiichi remembering things as a miracle. Because of that there's no reason for their memories to be constrained by how far back Hanyuu can send hers and Rika's.
Also in some events Shion is present at their school and others she is not.
The only disconnect is where Keiichi gives Mion the doll and Shion is seen (after that point) attending their school and taking care of Satoko. It could be that Shion takes a break from her own school from time to time to visit and take care of Satako, but that would not jive with the earliest Shion arc where even Rena didn't know Shion, but the following arc Shion is the manager of the baseball team and present with Mion and Rena.
Thus it is likely that Shion being present and known is a dice roll as well. Rika rolled the near perfect dice for that arc so that not only did Mion get the doll, but Shion was known and attending school with Satoko.
I think many of these events depends on how the board was set up, and ultimately the dice rolls. Meanwhile, loop memories would affect the chances of certain events.
For example, there's probably a very small chance that Shion remember her promise to Satoko, and the chance of that happeing increases after Meakashi-hen (but still not absolute, since she didn't show up in Tsumihoroboshi-hen) since it was her final regret. If she does remember and cares for her, there's also another chance that she would attend the school with Satoko(Minagoroshi), or just be somewhere else, such as staying with her mother instead(Matsuribayashi).
Klashikari
2008-07-07, 23:12
This case is pretty much illustrated by Akasaka's "miracle":
Even before the "fragment" where he is bitter about the fact he couldn't save both Yukie and Rika, in Minagoroshi, Akasaka was able to save Yukie as he trusted Rika's predictions.
However, it is a fact that Rika and Hanyuu are not able to go beyond 2 weeks before the tragedy. As result, the past, which is supposed to be frozen solid, changed, because of a "dice roll".
Shion and Akasaka, as long as other factors such like how Keiichi learns the truth/or if his father decides or not to move on Hinamizawa etc, are not dependant of any specific events, they are basically some luck, some random factors that are bound only to their own probability to do X, Y Z, etc result.
The events themselves are not rock solid, until there is a very strong will behind it (as explained by Frederica in the start of Minagoroshi): all the events occured according to "fate" as Takano had a unyielding will for her objective, hence why Tommy's death is a clockwork etc.
Mr. Delicious
2008-07-14, 18:49
What are the textbook definitions of each level?
All I know is that L1 is infected with no symptoms and that L5 is totally koo-koo-bird.
Mr. Delicious
2008-07-17, 15:38
Here's an interesting question--
if you were in Rika's position after she regained her memories of Minagorashi-Hen, and possessed that awareness of all of the Rules, how would YOU go about obtaining a good ending?
Here's an interesting question--
if you were in Rika's position after she regained her memories of Minagorashi-Hen, and possessed that awareness of all of the Rules, how would YOU go about obtaining a good ending?
The problem with that question is than we have now all her awareness and we know more ( what will appen next for example), so we would not really find (honnestly) a way for the good endding without using this extra knowledge.
Here's an interesting question--
if you were in Rika's position after she regained her memories of Minagorashi-Hen, and possessed that awareness of all of the Rules, how would YOU go about obtaining a good ending?
Stop time, throw a few dozen knives at Takano, let time resume.
Intranetusa
2008-07-22, 14:34
"You can be insane without having this fictional syndrome. "
...the syndrome isn't fictional... The murders in the entire 1st season proved that the disease does cause a person to go insane/homicidal and is fatal at the end.
"Killing 2000 (innocent) people just to prove a point IS insane. "
The death of the 2000 people is the byproduct, not the goal. Her goal is to complete her grandfather's research.
1. Kill the carrier queen
2. cause the people to turn insane
3. force the government to kill the villagers to prevent the disease from spreading
4. the faction supporting her in the government takes over, allowing her to continue her research
""hey gibits why did you kill all those innocent people?"
"well, I had a rough childhood, and my relatives were insulted. And you know I have a really strong sense of duty.""
It's funny (not really) that Hitler and Stalin both grew up in an abusive family.
"Sorry but I don't believe in moral relativism, I believe in right and wrong. "
Destroying a village in order to save it - that was basically the policy in Vietnam...
Nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki so an allied invasion of the Japanese home islands would not be necessary...
Euthanasia of a terminal cancer patient in extreme pain...
Nothing in the world is purely right and wrong.
tobiast88
2008-07-22, 15:59
Godwin point reached, disregard the rest.
Mr. Delicious
2008-07-23, 00:14
Question--in the arcs like Watanagashi where Takano's big queen carrier theory is proven wrong, what happens? Is she stripped of status and removed, or does she go into hiding?
The death of the 2000 people is the byproduct, not the goal. Her goal is to complete her grandfather's research.
1. Kill the carrier queen
2. cause the people to turn insane
3. force the government to kill the villagers to prevent the disease from spreading
4. the faction supporting her in the government takes over, allowing her to continue her research
Wrong. Takano aims to kill them within the 48 hour window predicted by Hifumi's theory before the appearance of any symptoms. She won't be able to prove anything by doing that, but she doesn't care since all she wants to do is to hurt back the people that hurt her beloved grandpa.
Question--in the arcs like Watanagashi where Takano's big queen carrier theory is proven wrong, what happens? Is she stripped of status and removed, or does she go into hiding?
Look at what happens in Matsuribayashi-hen when Rika fakes her death. Takano probably suffers a mental breakdown when her grandfather's theory is disproved. Nomura no longer has any use for her since the Yamainu cannot receive authorization to gas the village. I imagine that Takano either goes L5 and claws her throat out or is assassinated by Nomura just to make sure that she doesn't talk about what happened, especially since she is already officially dead.
Intranetusa
2008-07-24, 02:02
Wrong. Takano aims to kill them within the 48 hour window predicted by Hifumi's theory before the appearance of any symptoms. She won't be able to prove anything by doing that, but she doesn't care since all she wants to do is to hurt back the people that hurt her beloved grandpa.
Wrong, her goal wasn't to hurt the people who dissed her grandpa. (who are the Tokyo group and not the Hinimizawa villagers). The people she was originally working for were the ones who insulted her grandpa - and at that point, she really didn't seemed to care. What she cared about was proving her grandpa's research. When the Tokyo group decided to stop her research, she joined the rogue faction who she believed will take over the original group and then help her continue her funding.
Hurting the people who hurt her grandpa isn't her objective (and their faction was led by the late Kozumi, her "2nd grandpa" anyways) - her goal is to make her grandpa's name known and his work accepted.
On a side note,
As for the whole carrier thing, there is probably some truth to it, but the idea that the entire village will go crazy is probably not true.
Wrong, her goal wasn't to hurt the people who dissed her grandpa. (who are the Tokyo group and not the Hinimizawa villagers). The people she was originally working for were the ones who insulted her grandpa - and at that point, she really didn't seemed to care. What she cared about was proving her grandpa's research. When the Tokyo group decided to stop her research, she joined the rogue faction who she believed will take over the original group and then help her continue her funding.
Hurting the people who hurt her grandpa isn't her objective (and their faction was led by the late Kozumi, her "2nd grandpa" anyways) - her goal is to make her grandpa's name known and his work accepted.
You were talking about why she gases the village. Sure, before Koizumi's death she had been trying to vindicate her grandfather by proving his theory, however after her funding is cut she decides to simply kill everyone in the village so as to lash out at the people who had rejected Hifumi's theories.
On a side note,
As for the whole carrier thing, there is probably some truth to it, but the idea that the entire village will go crazy is probably not true.
Why do you say that there's some truth in it?
Why do you say that there's some truth in it?
He must mean the ''benefic'' effect than Rika have on people aroud her (much of the elders ), but it more like a placebo effect ( a mix of cuteness and the '' reincarnation of Oyashiro sama'' thing)
Before funding was cut it was indeed about proving Hifumi's theory. However, when they announced that Irie Institute were to be scrapped in a year, she had to change her plans.
It didn't matter if the Queen Theory was correct for her or not. It only mattered if Manual #34 gets activated or not. Forcing the government to acknowledge and approve the activation of Manual #34 is Takano's victory. That's why she needs to control Rika's death; she cannot go with the plan if she could not confirm the corpse (Matsuribayashi), or confirmed it too late (Watanagashi/Meakashi)
Recall one of the hypothesis of the disease that was established by Hifumi is that, Hinamizawa Syndrome is a disease that perhaps has existed in other places in history (different but similar disease). He wondered if that was how religious leaders (such as Jesus) in history was able to gather people to worship them or whatever they wanted the people to worship, with the help of a similar syndrome.
Therefore, with the controlled killing of the "queen" and the "ants", she has made the government to acknowledge the Queen's Theory, which in a sense, dethrones gods to a mere "disease induced element". That's her revenge against god.
theacefrehley
2008-07-25, 12:22
Before funding was cut it was indeed about proving Hifumi's theory. However, when they announced that Irie Institute were to be scrapped in a year, she had to change her plans.
It didn't matter if the Queen Theory was correct for her or not. It only mattered if Manual #34 gets activated or not. Forcing the government to acknowledge and approve the activation of Manual #34 is Takano's victory. That's why she needs to control Rika's death; she cannot go with the plan if she could not confirm the corpse (Matsuribayashi), or confirmed it too late (Watanagashi/Meakashi)
Recall one of the hypothesis of the disease that was established by Hifumi is that, Hinamizawa Syndrome is a disease that perhaps has existed in other places in history (different but similar disease). He wondered if that was how religious leaders (such as Jesus) in history was able to gather people to worship them or whatever they wanted the people to worship, with the help of a similar syndrome.
Therefore, with the controlled killing of the "queen" and the "ants", she has made the government to acknowledge the Queen's Theory, which in a sense, dethrones gods to a mere "disease induced element". That's her revenge against god.
I agree here
The big shots of Tokyo always mocked Hifumi's theory, however, when Takano confirms Rika's death and asks permission to activate manual #34, they don't have the guts to keep on mocking the theory as mere bullshit, and just to be sure, they give the authorization. This is Takano's revenge against Tokyo, and God, in a sense, for the theory was acknowledged, even though not proved. It's as though Takano is telling them "Who will be the first to ridicule my grandfather now, you scumbags?"
Besides, she believes that Nomura will help her keep the research later, for she believed (wrongly) that Koizumi's faction would regain power again with the massacre. This way she'll have revenge and keep on her grandpa's dream.
Hurting the people who hurt her grandpa isn't her objective (and their faction was led by the late Kozumi, her "2nd grandpa" anyways) - her goal is to make her grandpa's name known and his work accepted.
When those guys humiliated Hifumi, Koizumi didn't have much power. So I guess the 'Koizumi faction' came later
I don't know if this has been addressed or not--maybe I missed something or forgot some point--but was the Queen Carrier theory ever actually truly *disproven* in the context of this final world? I know that as the viewer, we know it is proven false from the other worlds where Rika was killed early, but was there any evidence that surfaced in the final world that put the theory completely to rest satisfactorily? Or is there still doubt in the end?
Also, what then is the full true nature of the syndrome? Has it ever been fully summed up satisfactorily minus the erroneous bits?
theacefrehley
2008-07-30, 07:49
I guess the Queen theory remains as a doubt for the characters (if I'm not forgetting something)
In the epilogue of Matsuribayashi hen (game), it's only mentioned that Irie will continue the research about the syndrome to help its victims (the 3 years deadline of the bigshots was not reached yet), so I guess that a full 'cure' is not done yet, I guess.
As for the nature of the syndrome:
My shot:
It's just a paranoia with delusions that is triggered by heavy stress, caused by a virus(?) native from that region of Hinamizawa.
Queen carrier theory is false (even though I guess the characters still don't know it)
Hanyuu's 'I'm sorry' = 'I'm the god of Hinamizawa and I can't even help my people. I'm sorry."
I guess the Queen theory remains as a doubt for the characters (if I'm not forgetting something)
In the epilogue of Matsuribayashi hen (game), it's only mentioned that Irie will continue the research about the syndrome to help its victims (the 3 years deadline of the bigshots was not reached yet), so I guess that a full 'cure' is not done yet, I guess.
As for the nature of the syndrome:
My shot:
It's just a paranoia with delusions that is triggered by heavy stress, caused by a virus(?) native from that region of Hinamizawa.
Queen carrier theory is false (even though I guess the characters still don't know it)
Hanyuu's 'I'm sorry' = 'I'm the god of Hinamizawa and I can't even help my people. I'm sorry."
Okay, good, that matches up with my own conclusions. It's a shame that this isn't resolved entirely, but I think we can be sure Irie will make far better progress toward that goal now that Takano's monomania is out of the equation and can rest a little easier now. :)
I also wonder how strong the evidence really was in her extension of her grandfather's research. Science is worst subverted and abused when data is filtered in favor of supporting a pre-determined result or agenda. A lesson Takano learned from her grandfather's rejection was not one favoring peer-review, but rather that one needed to learn how to grease the bureaucratic gears in order to get their project funded and supported.
Still, with regards to the Queen Carrier theory, there is the fact that Rika's blood appears to have some kind of antiviral property which Irie has been studying and making progress with, I almost forgot about that part. And then there's her inherited connection to Hanyuu--is this tied with the properties of her blood, maybe?
Does the story of Onigari-no-Ryuou http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=766743&postcount=148 and of Hanyuu's reflection on her past http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=766752&postcount=149 have any connection to all this? I'm a little baffled by the exact significance of these two last pieces of the puzzle still, though they give some clues to the origins of some of Hinamizawa's local lore.
:confused:
kingsky123
2008-08-04, 06:14
aren't those just incidents that made hanyuu a god?
onigari-no-ryuou = that dagger thing that ouka used to stab hanyuu.
Still, with regards to the Queen Carrier theory, there is the fact that Rika's blood appears to have some kind of antiviral property which Irie has been studying and making progress with, I almost forgot about that part. And then there's her inherited connection to Hanyuu--is this tied with the properties of her blood, maybe?
From what I've gathered, Hanyuu has no relation to Hinamizawa syndrome. Her backstory doesn't mention it and she never talks it either. The theories Takano feeds Rena about Oyashiro-sma being connected to the disease seem completely unfounded. Does anyone know of anything pointing otherwise?
onigari-no-ryuou = that dagger thing that ouka used to stab hanyuu.
Wasn't it a sword? (And Hanyuu was disemboweled, not stabbed.)
Klashikari
2008-08-04, 16:19
From what I've gathered, Hanyuu has no relation to Hinamizawa syndrome. Her backstory doesn't mention it and she never talks it either. The theories Takano feeds Rena about Oyashiro-sma being connected to the disease seem completely unfounded. Does anyone know of anything pointing otherwise?
There isn't anything that would confirm any relation between the syndrome and Hanyuu. Plainly said, Hanyuu's backstory is rather tying everything about the "ordeal" and such. Rei pretty much explains her "view", though not completely in its full extent, i guess.
Wasn't it a sword? (And Hanyuu was disemboweled, not stabbed.)
It is indeed a sword, with quite a fancy look to boot (several "branches". Check Hanyuu's hypermode with Onigari no Ryouu in Daybreak Kai).
Ah, okay, that makes sense then. I was just wondering if the whole oni/human blood thing tied in with the syndrome somehow. I feel like there IS some connection hiding in here somewhere, if not necessarily in that portion, but maybe that's just Takano whispering in my ear...:heh:
kingsky123
2008-08-04, 23:20
It is indeed a sword, with quite a fancy look to boot (several "branches". Check Hanyuu's hypermode with Onigari no Ryouu in Daybreak Kai).
... i felt that daybreak kai made the sword into something akin to a golden cactus... i personally thought that it was either closer to the 3 pointed dagger weapon or a trident due to the description.
Ah, okay, that makes sense then. I was just wondering if the whole oni/human blood thing tied in with the syndrome somehow. I feel like there IS some connection hiding in here somewhere, if not necessarily in that portion, but maybe that's just Takano whispering in my ear...:heh:
As far as I'm aware there's no evidence that any of the great houses (or villagers) have demon blood. I think that the legends about demon blood are simply the result of people from Hinamizawa going L5 and committing acts of torture or murder, rather than indicating that demons were actually involved in the creation of the syndrome.
It is indeed a sword, with quite a fancy look to boot (several "branches". Check Hanyuu's hypermode with Onigari no Ryouu in Daybreak Kai).
Isn't that simply a distortion to the truth brought about by the retelling of the legends of Oyashiro-sama over the centuries? Wasn't this (http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9470/snap075ki9.jpg) what the real Onigari no Ryouu looked like?
devilkiller7
2008-08-05, 00:59
theres still a couple things i wanna know, first off towards the last ep of the 1st season i heard rena say there are worshippers of oyashiro sama that plans to revive his belief(not leave the village and not let outsiders in) in order to gain back the authority of the sonozaki. who were the worshippers exactly? just takano or yamainu? correct me if im wrong but it seems yamainu are under the control of takano herself with the money she received from koizumi. is it also possible she has taken control over sonozaki as well? is renas theory incorrect when she said the yamainu want her dead coz of the scrap books she got from takano when actually they were suppose to have rika watanagashied to blame the villagers for going insane coz of parasites? the curse i think is weird coz the 5 years murders werent all from takano but she did some of it to keep the curse alive, take satoko for example she killed her parents through the syndrome level 5 due to stress. what i wonder is the furude murders, it didnt explain how she use the curse to kill them. all this im trying to fit towards the last ep of the 1st season when rena was talking to keiichi about stuff. seems the worshippers of oyashiro sama werent worshippers at all but trying to spy on keiichi friends and rika. takano and yamainu are definitely responsible for rikas death as long as its watanagashi style. this is plain stupid in my theory why dont they just kill her in a bizarre way than watanagashi style? its said in renas theory those ppl that ate berserked individuals intestines werent berserked. so watanagashi rika doesnt really prove theyre insane coz they did it for immune response reasons. or maybe she havent revealed this theory to the governement yet? please correct me if said some errors.
Dreamiel
2008-08-05, 04:31
Wasn't this (http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9470/snap075ki9.jpg) what the real Onigari no Ryouu looked like?
Yeah, that makes sense. It seems more like a Katana in that Picture, in Daybreak it was totally different. That's not the only confusing thing about this story either. Just look at how Ouka is drawn in that picture: A Rika clone. In the manga she looked way differnet.
Klashikari
2008-08-05, 05:58
Isn't that simply a distortion to the truth brought about by the retelling of the legends of Oyashiro-sama over the centuries? Wasn't this (http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9470/snap075ki9.jpg) what the real Onigari no Ryouu looked like?
I would really avoid using the PS2 game as a reference. Honestly, considering how ONR is described in the game (a branch of a willow), that 07th expansion neatly helped Tosagare for Daybreak, I believe the daybreak version is the most logical one (and It would be very weird for Hanyuu to draw out that sword in a altered form).
theres still a couple things i wanna know, first off towards the last ep of the 1st season i heard rena say there are worshippers of oyashiro sama that plans to revive his belief(not leave the village and not let outsiders in) in order to gain back the authority of the sonozaki. who were the worshippers exactly? just takano or yamainu? correct me if im wrong but it seems yamainu are under the control of takano herself with the money she received from koizumi. is it also possible she has taken control over sonozaki as well? is renas theory incorrect when she said the yamainu want her dead coz of the scrap books she got from takano when actually they were suppose to have rika watanagashied to blame the villagers for going insane coz of parasites? the curse i think is weird coz the 5 years murders werent all from takano but she did some of it to keep the curse alive, take satoko for example she killed her parents through the syndrome level 5 due to stress. what i wonder is the furude murders, it didnt explain how she use the curse to kill them. all this im trying to fit towards the last ep of the 1st season when rena was talking to keiichi about stuff. seems the worshippers of oyashiro sama werent worshippers at all but trying to spy on keiichi friends and rika. takano and yamainu are definitely responsible for rikas death as long as its watanagashi style. this is plain stupid in my theory why dont they just kill her in a bizarre way than watanagashi style? its said in renas theory those ppl that ate berserked individuals intestines werent berserked. so watanagashi rika doesnt really prove theyre insane coz they did it for immune response reasons. or maybe she havent revealed this theory to the governement yet? please correct me if said some errors.
1) Rena was completely delusional and affected by Takano's scrabooks. There is absolutely no worshippers that was trying to revive the belief of oyashiro (it is a bit a nonsense, as the village is pretty much considering Rika as its reincarnation).
2) No, there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that Takano would have be able to control the Sonozaki.
3) No, the yamainu didn't track her down because of the scrapbooks. Actually, they didn't chase her, they were preparing everything for the disaster plan. The only people who were after her was the police and the Sonozaki.
4) The murders are just a chain of coincidence and fate. Even Takano herself wondered if it wasn't the blessing of Oyashiro-sama when Satoshi went berserk, right after the watanagashi festival.
5) It is highly hinted that Takano killed Rika's father just like the Yamainu did for Satako in Yakusamashi-hen. As for Rika's mother, she was used as a living sample. It is at that moment that Takano thought about the curse (originally, they would only have to terminate Rika's mother, but killing both of them would be better to match the curse).
6) You are mistaken here: the way how Takano kills Rika is completely unrelated to Rena's theory. Rena is completely in her own delusional world that she went nuts with the theories she borrowed form Takano's scrapbooks. There was never a definite explanation why Takano used the watanagashi ritual to gut Rika, but it is definitely because it would raise more suspicion towards a "group of fanatics", leave even more mystery about, for her own enjoyement.
As far as I'm aware there's no evidence that any of the great houses (or villagers) have demon blood. I think that the legends about demon blood are simply the result of people from Hinamizawa going L5 and committing acts of torture or murder, rather than indicating that demons were actually involved in the creation of the syndrome.
I'm still unlcear here...is there any explanation given then for the *curative* properties of Furude blood? Of Rika's inherited ability to see Hanyuu? I'm talking about positive effects here in any case. I'm somewhat inclined to infer some kind of connection perhaps between the Furude bloodline and Hanyuu's. I guess I should dig for more clues though to support or dismantle that hypothesis, though. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious.
I suppose it could just all be "divine powers" associated with being a miko acting as "Oyashiro-sama's avatar", as it were, which would fit in a Shintoist way at least.
Takano's theory on Queen Carrier has it that when the carrier is near the queen, chemicals will be created in the carriers' brains. Those chemical helps calms the carrier down, and also helps suppress/recover of the level count.
While we can't say this is 100% sure, since Takano's Queen Carrier Theory is somewhat flawed, we can see/guess that the effect has played a role for Satoko/Shion/Rena.
I'm still unlcear here...is there any explanation given then for the *curative* properties of Furude blood? Of Rika's inherited ability to see Hanyuu? I'm talking about positive effects here in any case. I'm somewhat inclined to infer some kind of connection perhaps between the Furude bloodline and Hanyuu's. I guess I should dig for more clues though to support or dismantle that hypothesis, though. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious.
I suppose it could just all be "divine powers" associated with being a miko acting as "Oyashiro-sama's avatar", as it were, which would fit in a Shintoist way at least.
Hanyuu is Rika's ancestor, who lived in Hinamizawa 1000 years ago. Rika can see Hanyuu because she's her reincarnation.
The people going L5 can sense Hanyuu because they have heightened senses, so that doesn't necessarily indicate a connection between Hanyuu and the Hinamizawa syndrome. Then again, Rika in Saikoroshi-hen calls Hinamizawa Syndrome the village's thousand year curse", so there might be a connection. But then again she could have been metaphorical.
Takano's theory on Queen Carrier has it that when the carrier is near the queen, chemicals will be created in the carriers' brains. Those chemical helps calms the carrier down, and also helps suppress/recover of the level count.
While we can't say this is 100% sure, since Takano's Queen Carrier Theory is somewhat flawed, we can see/guess that the effect has played a role for Satoko/Shion/Rena.
There's no evidence it's correct. The effect Rika has may well be purely psychological; after all she is revered as the reincarnation of a god so her presence can be calming even if the queen theory is completely inaccurate.
There's no evidence it's correct. The effect Rika has may well be purely psychological; after all she is revered as the reincarnation of a god so her presence can be calming even if the queen theory is completely inaccurate.
That's why I never said it's 100% sure...but as for psychological, it might be less for the cases for Shion in Meakashi (resented Oyashiro-sama and how Rika was useless) or Rena in Tsumihoroboshi (facing Rika 2nd time after being driven more crazy and paranoid after the dump scene)
If the Queen Carrier is false then how was Irie and Takano able to advance their research by examining Rika?
Hanyuu is Rika's ancestor, who lived in Hinamizawa 1000 years ago. Rika can see Hanyuu because she's her reincarnation.
The people going L5 can sense Hanyuu because they have heightened senses, so that doesn't necessarily indicate a connection between Hanyuu and the Hinamizawa syndrome. Then again, Rika in Saikoroshi-hen calls Hinamizawa Syndrome the village's thousand year curse", so there might be a connection. But then again she could have been metaphorical.
Okay, that's one piece that I thought was there but wasn't sure. So we know that Rika can see Hanyuu as she is her descendent and reincarnation/host. I agree that the heightened senses are the probable cause of being able to partially perceive Hanyuu, not due to a direct connection (though it is an interesting bit of synchronicity if that is so).
Still the curse angle is interesting--if the village was cursed for their actions, then it would make sense that divine intervention would be a cure. That said, I'd rather stick to physical evidence that doesn't involve the supernatural more than necessary, since that feels more like a deus ex machina answer.
If the Queen Carrier is false then how was Irie and Takano able to advance their research by examining Rika?
We know the Carrier hypothesis is false from the arcs where Rika dies "early". But I think the point of confusion is that there clearly IS something different about Rika's blood that has a curative effect on the syndrome, so the hypothesis might be "half-correct"--the villagers DO get a beneficial effect from the bloodline of the Furude shrine maidens. I could see this might be the "divine influence" of being the "bloodline of Oyashiro-sama" (or even that so-called "oni blood" actually is resistant to the syndrome, perhaps) without necessarily having anything to do with the cause of the syndrome itself. But where does the syndrome itself actually really come from then? Do we have any solid clues about it?
theacefrehley
2008-08-06, 20:41
The origin is never mentioned clearly so,
I think the origin is just a virus/bacteria of the region because Irie can, let's say, half-cure it with those vaccines/drugs (science). He researched the virus, Rika's blood and made the drugs, vaccines whatever.
I think the role of the queen is not to make everyone go nuts like Takano wanted it to be. She is special just because she's immune to the disease and could help making drugs to cure it.
There're people who are naturally immune to diseases, aren't there?
devilkiller7
2008-08-07, 00:10
1) Rena was completely delusional and affected by Takano's scrabooks. There is absolutely no worshippers that was trying to revive the belief of oyashiro (it is a bit a nonsense, as the village is pretty much considering Rika as its reincarnation).
2) No, there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that Takano would have be able to control the Sonozaki.
3) No, the yamainu didn't track her down because of the scrapbooks. Actually, they didn't chase her, they were preparing everything for the disaster plan. The only people who were after her was the police and the Sonozaki.
4) The murders are just a chain of coincidence and fate. Even Takano herself wondered if it wasn't the blessing of Oyashiro-sama when Satoshi went berserk, right after the watanagashi festival.
5) It is highly hinted that Takano killed Rika's father just like the Yamainu did for Satako in Yakusamashi-hen. As for Rika's mother, she was used as a living sample. It is at that moment that Takano thought about the curse (originally, they would only have to terminate Rika's mother, but killing both of them would be better to match the curse).
6) You are mistaken here: the way how Takano kills Rika is completely unrelated to Rena's theory. Rena is completely in her own delusional world that she went nuts with the theories she borrowed form Takano's scrapbooks. There was never a definite explanation why Takano used the watanagashi ritual to gut Rika, but it is definitely because it would raise more suspicion towards a "group of fanatics", leave even more mystery about, for her own enjoyement.[/QUOTE]
thanks alot for the corrections, i finally understand everything thats been going on now, i watched this series like 5 times and tried to fit everything together since this is one of the most complicated series i ever seen. oh one more thing what was nomura(the woman that takano talked with in the car after her lost of her hinamizawa syndrome research) true intentions exactly? i knew she was against takano the whole time but is there any specific reason why she does this? the show explains very little, it also looked like she bargained takano for her own advantage. also heard rumours she killed takano right after the disaster
Klashikari
2008-08-07, 08:41
Nomura used Takano's as a trump card to seize control of the organization "Tokyo".
The alphabet project (the codename for the research on the syndrome) was really important, and many funds were poured in it for shaddy expectations (the most recurrent one is to use the syndrome as a tactical weapon).
However, ever since Koizumi died, his faction crumbled and the power was in jeopardy.
Nomura (or rather, Takagi) possibly belongs to an opposing faction within Tokyo. Using Takano in order to generate chaos and such in the alphabet project, the disaster would obviously generate disputes and discredit completely the current faction at the head of Tokyo, as such blunder would be beyond acceptable for the whole party.
Hence, Takagi is plotting behind the scene, even though Takano more or less knows "why" she approached her.
theacefrehley
2008-08-07, 12:43
Nomura used Takano's as a trump card to seize control of the organization "Tokyo".
The alphabet project (the codename for the research on the syndrome) was really important, and many funds were poured in it for shaddy expectations (the most recurrent one is to use the syndrome as a tactical weapon).
However, ever since Koizumi died, his faction crumbled and the power was in jeopardy.
Nomura (or rather, Takagi) possibly belongs to an opposing faction within Tokyo. Using Takano in order to generate chaos and such in the alphabet project, the disaster would obviously generate disputes and discredit completely the current faction at the head of Tokyo, as such blunder would be beyond acceptable for the whole party.
Hence, Takagi is plotting behind the scene, even though Takano more or less knows "why" she approached her.
There's a part where she mentions directly something like 'make the koizumi faction fall'. I guess she is on the side of the actual faction in charge and just want to smash any remaining prestige the koizumi faction still has. Or not:heh:
Klashikari
2008-08-07, 13:07
It doesn't seem that it would be really beneficial for the current leaders if there is that kind of commotion exploding in the alphabet project.
I'm pretty sure Takagi's party is a third one, not really related to the current or Koizumi's. Or... perhaps it is still Koizumi's party, but remodelled (which would make sense here).
devilkiller7
2008-08-07, 23:10
Nomura used Takano's as a trump card to seize control of the organization "Tokyo".
The alphabet project (the codename for the research on the syndrome) was really important, and many funds were poured in it for shaddy expectations (the most recurrent one is to use the syndrome as a tactical weapon).
However, ever since Koizumi died, his faction crumbled and the power was in jeopardy.
Nomura (or rather, Takagi) possibly belongs to an opposing faction within Tokyo. Using Takano in order to generate chaos and such in the alphabet project, the disaster would obviously generate disputes and discredit completely the current faction at the head of Tokyo, as such blunder would be beyond acceptable for the whole party.
Hence, Takagi is plotting behind the scene, even though Takano more or less knows "why" she approached her.
i see, but even though we still dont clearly know why nomura wud want control over it but mostly likely for biological weaponry. nomura doesnt seem to care when takano was at lost coz of rikas fake death report. another thing, u know how to said that everything in renas theory was completely nonsense, then how do u explain the watanagashi festival, like why do they have this festival, but i was pretty sure it was ancient festival for ppl to disembowel the berserked individuals. even though i know rikas watanagashi style has nothing to do with this, we cant say her theory was all bullshit coz some of it really does make sense as in the festival where they plow into ppls intestines for immune responses, rikas dance proves it with what she does during the dance, and the torture tools inside oyashiro samas shrine use for dissecting the person. oyashiro sama is nothing more that just the guardian of hinamizawa and that he was the viruses effects of driving the person insane from stress(also from renas theory), this is very confusing as to why he became part of the parasite when oyashiros samas belief was created by the parasites for ppl to understand the murders, he was a doctor or was he an alien?
Hanyuu's story is likely connected to the Watanagashi Festival. She had to get the chip in her left horn somehow.
Hanyuu's story is likely connected to the Watanagashi Festival. She had to get the chip in her left horn somehow.
Hanyuu's sacrifice is the foundation of the watanagashi ritual. Ouka disemboweled her mother, threw her intestines in the river and the rest of her corpse in the Onigafuchi swamp. The villagers simply decided to imitate that process on a yearly basis.
What makes you think that the chip in her horn is significant and wasn't simply added in order to make her seem more vulnerable and thus more moe?
By the way, why does Hanyuu act like a moeblob? Rika has to act cute in order to disguise the fact that she's a hundred-year old witch. Hanyuu doesn't have to conceal her true nature since the only person who can see her is Rika. And the way she acts often irritates Rika; e.g. when Rika arrives in the world of Minagoroshi-hen. Does she do it in order to remind Rika not to be too serious or depressed? Or perhaps the thousand years she spent cut off from contact with human beings caused her mind to regress to an infantile state?
kingsky123
2008-08-08, 05:34
i think it has something to do with rika being tied to hanyuu's senses, causing her to see/feel/think/hear like a 12 year old maybe?
Or perhaps the thousand years she spent cut off from contact with human beings caused her mind to regress to an infantile state?- oh wow, this is evil :P
i think it has something to do with rika being tied to hanyuu's senses, causing her to see/feel/think/hear like a 12 year old maybe?
Why would Rika's sensory input cause this to Hanyuu when Rika is able to think like an adult though?
Klashikari
2008-08-08, 07:18
By the way, why does Hanyuu act like a moeblob? Rika has to act cute in order to disguise the fact that she's a hundred-year old witch. Hanyuu doesn't have to conceal her true nature since the only person who can see her is Rika. And the way she acts often irritates Rika; e.g. when Rika arrives in the world of Minagoroshi-hen. Does she do it in order to remind Rika not to be too serious or depressed? Or perhaps the thousand years she spent cut off from contact with human beings caused her mind to regress to an infantile state?
I'm not totally sure if "Rika" is acting. You can say that Frederica indeed had to disguise herself with this cute demeanor, but I would assume that she is "originally" like that, but the "Frederica" part becomes extremely jaded of everything.
As for Hanyuu, personally, I see her behaviour as "both" original what she is but also like Rena: trying to "flee" the reality acting like that.
I think that the moe aspect has a huge impact on Frederica: I wouldn't think that both "time travelers" would do happy go lucky if Hanyuu was overly dead serious. To illustrate the point, it seems that hanyuu is an excellent support to Frederica and the fact that both have antics despite the "not so happy go lucky fate" prove somewhat that the mood is lifted times to times.
Considering also how Hanyuu feels very guilty for her "sin", I guess she is "redeeming" herself by that stance.
But pretty much like Rena, the "cute" moeblob mode seems to be an innate part of her.
The time spend ''alone'' have more chance to be the reason for her ''infantile'' behavior than the link with rika, but it it be than she is doing it in purpose? trying to be the most friendly with Rika before her next death, after all Hanyuu's behavior was ( most of the time) infantile or defaitist
Edit, Klashikari might be right about conparing Hanyuu's and Rena's behavior, this might be self imposed at first, but it could become natural with the time (and hanyuu got 100 years for it ,so...)
I'm not totally sure if "Rika" is acting. You can say that Frederica indeed had to disguise herself with this cute demeanor, but I would assume that she is "originally" like that, but the "Frederica" part becomes extremely jaded of everything.
That's what I thought as well. Interestingly at one point in Saikoroshi-hen Frederika states "It's not 'my' turn. 'I' should withdraw. ... At that time, ...... I felt... 'I' faded.", which makes it sound as if Rika has two personalities and Frederika releases the original personality at times to act normally. However from what I recall none of the previous chapters implied such an internal conflict so I wouldn't say that Rika has split personalities; at least until that world.
One other thing I find interesting is that in this TIP (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=690889&postcount=136) Hanyuu says that Rika's personality "was just like Satoko's. An energetic young girl who loved to run about the wild mountains and pulling pranks." I wouldn't say that Rika's cute personality is really that similar to Satoko's. She's much calmer and while she delights upon seeing people getting pranked by Satoko never really pulls pranks herself. This would make it seem that the way she acts is in fact different from what she was like before she died for the first time.
Thus in conclusion I think that Frederika is probably emulating what her personality was before, as she says, her heart became barren. Though apparently she doesn't actually emulate it perfectly since it seems much more placid than that of Satoko.
But pretty much like Rena, the "cute" moeblob mode seems to be an innate part of her.
The parallel with Rena seems spot on. Hanyuu and Rena seem quite similar in that respect. Hanyuu must be allowing herself to act like that in order to remind Rika that she's still a child; even if her behavior gets on Rika's nerves.
devilkiller7
2008-08-09, 03:07
Hanyuu is supposedly oyashiro sama except the fact its a girl, she told rika she was hinamizawas god and how they blame the 4 years bizarre murders on her. she also revealed she let the villagers watanagashi her to stand against the disease. in my opinion between rika and hanyuu, rika only acts like a boss around her all the time, and hanyuu is just helpless against her. but when hanyuu gets angry she becomes demon like. ive also heard somewhere that hanyuu was founder of the watanagashi festival, so does this mean she was the first to be watanagashied to prove they can develop immunity and once it worked they took the event literally into a festival. but now since the disease is stable they dont do that anymore and the watanagashi festival became just a normal festival of thanks giving to their god oyashiro sama. is this really how the watanagashi festival turned out? for the sake of wanting to suppress the disease they have this ancient festival of killer events? why didnt call it a different name for this festival since the disease is no longer dangerous when everyones normal? the name represents that horrible time of villagers eating intestines i thought it wud be sick. or maybe its coz of oyashiro sama that started the event and became a respected god so they dont plan on changing it?
Klashikari
2008-08-09, 03:16
you are mixing wayy too much things:
1) "they" blame the 4 years murders on her? Quite not. Even if people claim it is Oyashiro-sama curse (they never implied its gender btw), they deep down thought the Sonozaki are behind these gruesome events. (this is rule Z)
2) No, Hanyuu sacrificed herself so she would take all sins in her. She is not related to the syndrome at all.
3) Frederica's behaviour isn't because of Hanyuu, but how her mind is exhausted to the point her cynical and jaded view is predominant. Hanyuu is "helpless" because she is the very reason why Rika is struggling.
4) Once again: the watanagashi ritual has NOTHING to do with the syndrome. There isn't any such fancy stuff as immunity or what not. That ritual was done by Ouka, Hanyuu's daughter.
The ritual is only because of the beliefs and the gruesome "demon blood within the onigafuchi" that left the cult doing that. But through the time, the folklore just died.
tobiast88
2008-08-09, 03:26
Congrats on wading though that and getting something legible and understandable.
devilkiller7
2008-08-09, 07:59
you are mixing wayy too much things:
1) "they" blame the 4 years murders on her? Quite not. Even if people claim it is Oyashiro-sama curse (they never implied its gender btw), they deep down thought the Sonozaki are behind these gruesome events. (this is rule Z)
2) No, Hanyuu sacrificed herself so she would take all sins in her. She is not related to the syndrome at all.
3) Frederica's behaviour isn't because of Hanyuu, but how her mind is exhausted to the point her cynical and jaded view is predominant. Hanyuu is "helpless" because she is the very reason why Rika is struggling.
4) Once again: the watanagashi ritual has NOTHING to do with the syndrome. There isn't any such fancy stuff as immunity or what not. That ritual was done by Ouka, Hanyuu's daughter.
The ritual is only because of the beliefs and the gruesome "demon blood within the onigafuchi" that left the cult doing that. But through the time, the folklore just died.
wow, now that everything all makes sense. (please note i just finished the series and i havent played the game or looked at anything else on discussion of the series) like i have no idea that hanyuu actually has a daughter. "they" might not blame the 4 years murder on her exactly but she knew they were talking about "oyashiro sama" meaning "her" of all the 4 murders. the onigafuchi actually ate the villagers intestines just coz they think the superior than others? thats some reason to do it, dont they ever thought of disgust? just coz back in those days they are regarded as half demon blood, they turn to cannibalism just for that purpose seems ridiculously to me.
the onigafuchi actually ate the villagers intestines just coz they think the superior than others? thats some reason to do it, dont they ever thought of disgust? just coz back in those days they are regarded as half demon blood, they turn to cannibalism just for that purpose seems ridiculously to me.
Takano may well have exaggerated, e.g. the stuff about the cannibalism, in order to toy with Shion and Keiichi. The reason that the three great houses performed these public disembowelments was mainly to maintain their power over the village through fear. Disemboweling those that slight you is a good way to keep others in line, which is why the Sonozakis kept doing it (e.g. to Rina).
It's rather ironic that Hanyuu and Ouka gave rise to such a brutal regime, considering how the wanted to bring about peace.
devilkiller7
2008-08-09, 13:26
but didnt they disembowel them coz of their ridiculous beliefs of being half demon? that their food chain of human intestines is to prove to the world theyre indeed different and far superior beings than the rest? did the sonozaki in the ancient times actually gained control of the village by these disembowelments? i thought it was their beliefs for entertainment of being half demon.
how exactly wud hanyuu and ouka trying to bring peace to the village with this kind of festival? they only bought fear and sicks to them that they had to watch them disembowel and eat the intestines right in front of them. peace cant be bought about through fear.
tobiast88
2008-08-09, 13:33
The watanagashi ritual was instituted to put fear in human's hearts, so that they would forevermore use spellcheck. It has obviously failed.
We don't know the whole story of the past. We have legends and tales. Takano doesn't know exactly what she is talking about (given Hanyuu's reaction). We have an idea of what Hanyuu and her doughter did. But after that (and perhaps before that) we don't really know what happened or why.
As with many belief systems, the reasons for things being done are generally lost on the masses, and given time, the origin and reasoning being the practice is lost even to the leaders of the system.
devilkiller7
2008-08-10, 00:54
even though if the cult performing these disembowelments died eventually through time and their beliefs died with them, wudnt it still left the villagers scarred from all those disembowelments? shudnt they at least be a little scared and still follow the orders of sonozaki? it wud take probably a very long time before all this can be forgotten.
devilkiller7
2008-08-10, 01:51
it seems most likely the sonozakis are the actual performers of those disembowelments when theyre trying to prove theyre "half demon" they also did it to prove their power and that everyone wud be bought fear with the disembowelments so they wud obey their rules and orders. thats why the villagers blamed the 4 years bizarre murders on them, they were literally thinking the sonozakis truly believed theyre demon blooded and carry out these incidents is proof. little do they know the sonozaki did it to also put fear into them to control them. but they dont know the sonozaki of the present time has long stop their insane beliefs as those who had this belief died.
even though if the cult performing these disembowelments died eventually through time and their beliefs died with them, wudnt it still left the villagers scarred from all those disembowelments? shudnt they at least be a little scared and still follow the orders of sonozaki? it wud take probably a very long time before all this can be forgotten.
What? The three great houses (House Sonozaki was the weakest and least important house until a good chunk of House Kimiyoshi and almost all of House Furude died out during WWII, which gave them the opportunity under Oryou's inspired leadership to dominate the area after WWII) still command respect and control the village. I fail to see your point.
devilkiller7
2008-08-10, 04:53
What? The three great houses (House Sonozaki was the weakest and least important house until a good chunk of House Kimiyoshi and almost all of House Furude died out during WWII, which gave them the opportunity under Oryou's inspired leadership to dominate the area after WWII) still command respect and control the village. I fail to see your point.
i already knew that the other great houses died out leaving only a few of them. my point is the disembowelments was one of their jobs to control the village through fear, in my opinion this is a fake theory coz if they try to control the village through fear then the hinamizawa syndrome will activate causing them to go insane and kill each other. i just leave this ritual as just an extra of being half demon. theres no such thing as using these disembowelments to control the village, ironically it will cause them to go mad instead.
kingsky123
2008-08-10, 07:43
During that time, it was believed that the disembowelment and consumption of the intestines were needed as to obtain immunity for the L5 syndrome ( like some sort of primitive cure)
During that time, it was believed that the disembowelment and consumption of the intestines were needed as to obtain immunity for the L5 syndrome ( like some sort of primitive cure)
That quasi-variolation theory comes from Miyo's scrapbook that talked about the syndrome being caused by aliens. You can't take it seriously since she probably just made it up.
devilkiller7
2008-08-10, 09:47
During that time, it was believed that the disembowelment and consumption of the intestines were needed as to obtain immunity for the L5 syndrome ( like some sort of primitive cure)
i also thought this was the case, but seems we were mistaken. they only ate their intestines coz of their beliefs of being "half demon." and as time passes the onigafuchi village name was then changed to hinamizawa and that belief was long gone with it as well.
There are so many half truths and misdirections that it is pretty much impossible to say just what is the correct answer right now. Maybe there is something we are missing, or not tying into the rest of the rumors and myths. Maybe Miyo is right but the cause is not what she thinks, or maybe the "half-demon" theory is right by started for a different reason.
There are always possibilities. Maybe Rie will clear it up a little...maybe it won't. Maybe the second title will somehow tie to the first and give us more clues as to why things happened in Hinamizawa.
devilkiller7
2008-08-10, 19:16
There are so many half truths and misdirections that it is pretty much impossible to say just what is the correct answer right now. Maybe there is something we are missing, or not tying into the rest of the rumors and myths. Maybe Miyo is right but the cause is not what she thinks, or maybe the "half-demon" theory is right by started for a different reason.
There are always possibilities. Maybe Rie will clear it up a little...maybe it won't. Maybe the second title will somehow tie to the first and give us more clues as to why things happened in Hinamizawa.
hopefully the 3rd season will give us more details yeah. but its gonna take place a day after the final ep of the 2nd season. so rika finally broke through fate, and after that it will probably start off with the club activities. maybe a new character or villain will be introduced. the syndrome is still not cured yet, the disease can still make ppl go insane if theyre too emotionally disturbed. they probably find out a cure for it in the 3rd season.
Dreamiel
2008-08-10, 19:26
hopefully the 3rd season will give us more details yeah. but its gonna take place a day after the final ep of the 2nd season. so rika finally broke through fate, and after that it will probably start off with the club activities. maybe a new character or villain will be introduced. the syndrome is still not cured yet, the disease can still make ppl go insane if theyre too emotionally disturbed. they probably find out a cure for it in the 3rd season.
Ummm..... Do you know nothing about Saikoroshi? That's what they are animating along with a comedy arc and a short arc based on a little story from the Matsuri pamphlet and nothing like what you described happens.
Klashikari
2008-08-10, 19:47
There are so many half truths and misdirections that it is pretty much impossible to say just what is the correct answer right now. Maybe there is something we are missing, or not tying into the rest of the rumors and myths. Maybe Miyo is right but the cause is not what she thinks, or maybe the "half-demon" theory is right by started for a different reason.
Considering her scrap books and behaviour, you really cannot took them as "half truth. These are baseless "theories" that were just distributed for her personal enjoyement and somewhat her disturbing research relate more on the "god obsession" as seen in End Minagoroshi than anything else.
While she might have a proper explanations of the Onigafuchi past, that's that. Her interpretations are really beyond the scope, and Hanyuu somewhat confirmed that the rituals and such were done to rever Oyashiro.
There are always possibilities. Maybe Rie will clear it up a little...maybe it won't. Maybe the second title will somehow tie to the first and give us more clues as to why things happened in Hinamizawa.
Rei will only tie things about Hanyuu, Rika and Frederica Bernkastel.
It won't deal with the syndrome and such, as it is pretty much explainded completely.
hopefully the 3rd season will give us more details yeah. but its gonna take place a day after the final ep of the 2nd season. so rika finally broke through fate, and after that it will probably start off with the club activities. maybe a new character or villain will be introduced. the syndrome is still not cured yet, the disease can still make ppl go insane if theyre too emotionally disturbed. they probably find out a cure for it in the 3rd season.
Not quite. Saikoroshi-hen takes place 2 months after the ending of Matsuribayashi-hen. Rika is hit by a car and when she wakes up, she's in a perfect world where nothing has gone wrong. Since nothing bad happened, Keiichi didn't move to Hinamizawa (he didn't shot little girls), Hinamizawa will be flooded in a year (the dam war didn't happen), Mion's Club doesn't exist (Mion and Shion didn't switch place for the tattoo so Shion's the one in Hinamizawa) and Satoko bullies Rika.
The story reveals more about Frederica Bernkastel and Hanyuu's past. I don't even think they mention the Hinamizawa's Syndrome in it.
RenaFuura
2008-08-10, 21:29
Why does Satoko bully Rika in Saikoroshi-hen?
Why does Satoko bully Rika in Saikoroshi-hen?
Since the Houjou familly isn't treated badly (no dam war) and also since she lives with Satoshi and her parents instead of Teppei, Satoko didn't have a tough live in this world which resulted in her becoming a spoiled brat. The reason why she's normally so kind is because she went through a lot in her life.
So she actually turns into her "'evil' rich lady laugh" character?
devilkiller7
2008-08-11, 03:10
Not quite. Saikoroshi-hen takes place 2 months after the ending of Matsuribayashi-hen. Rika is hit by a car and when she wakes up, she's in a perfect world where nothing has gone wrong. Since nothing bad happened, Keiichi didn't move to Hinamizawa (he didn't shot little girls), Hinamizawa will be flooded in a year (the dam war didn't happen), Mion's Club doesn't exist (Mion and Shion didn't switch place for the tattoo so Shion's the one in Hinamizawa) and Satoko bullies Rika.
The story reveals more about Frederica Bernkastel and Hanyuu's past. I don't even think they mention the Hinamizawa's Syndrome in it.
but then wudnt this be a little boring just showing their past life? theres bound to be something else to this new season to continue its horror genre. the series kinda lost its thrill in the 2nd season, and i was hoping they wud bring it back in the 3rd season.
Klashikari
2008-08-11, 06:24
but then wudnt this be a little boring just showing their past life? theres bound to be something else to this new season to continue its horror genre. the series kinda lost its thrill in the 2nd season, and i was hoping they wud bring it back in the 3rd season.
You are looking for the very wrong series then. Higurashi was never meant to be "horror" only, and season 2 had its true essence shown.
Furthermore, there isn't anything to present for "horror" considering all the answers have been given, so it would be moot to try that as it wouldnt have any impact.
but then wudnt this be a little boring just showing their past life? theres bound to be something else to this new season to continue its horror genre. the series kinda lost its thrill in the 2nd season, and i was hoping they wud bring it back in the 3rd season.
I don't really think you can call Rei a 3rd season. It's called Rei (gratitude in japanese) for a reason, it's a little extra made for the fans of the series. The anime adaptation will most likely be 5 episodes long (not confirmed but they did say there will be a total of 5 DVD and I can't see Saikoroshi-hen having more than 3 episodes) which is more than enough for Rei since the 3 arcs combined are shorter than Onikakushi-hen which had 4 episodes in the anime.
Don't worry though since Saikoroshi-hen is a lot more interesting than it looks but you will be disappointed if the only thing you wanted from Rei was the horror.
but then wudnt this be a little boring just showing their past life? theres bound to be something else to this new season to continue its horror genre. the series kinda lost its thrill in the 2nd season, and i was hoping they wud bring it back in the 3rd season.
You'll get to see Rika choke a bitch, but other than that there probably won't be any other violence on screen.
Don't worry though since Saikoroshi-hen is a lot more interesting than it looks but you will be disappointed if the only thing you wanted from Rei was the horror.
Considering the fact he disliked the second season, the chances of him liking Rei are pretty low.
I'm still hoping for a "fun" arc. A Daybreak arc perhaps? "Just" club games maybe? A little comedy as a reward for all the death and dispear?
I'm still hoping for a "fun" arc. A Daybreak arc perhaps? "Just" club games maybe? A little comedy as a reward for all the death and dispear?
The software developer Ryukishi07 (Seventh Expansion) revealed on Wednesday that the Higurashi no Naku Koro ni franchise's first video anime series, the Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Rei collection of side stories, will begin shipping on December 26 on DVD and one month later on Blu-ray Disc in Japan. The first of five volumes, "Hajisarashi," will be a gag story set in the municipal swimming pool. The next three volumes, which will be the "Saikoroshi" arc, will be a serious drama involving one of the story's heroines after the resolution of the two previous television series. This arc will be released between February and June of next year. The final volume, "Hirukowashi" on August of 2009, will be a slapstick romantic comedy based on a novel spinoff from the Higurashi Daybreak game, which is being ported to the PSP.
Source: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-07-23/higurashi-no-naku-koro-ni-rei-video-details-announced
;)
"Yeah, milkshakes."
Actually, swimsuits! (though no beach)
Comedy (with that hint of an edge/mystery still there) is desired. Though we are assuming they know how to swim, and the punishement game won't involve someone drowning.
Considering her scrap books and behaviour, you really cannot took them as "half truth. These are baseless "theories" that were just distributed for her personal enjoyement and somewhat her disturbing research relate more on the "god obsession" as seen in End Minagoroshi than anything else.
While she might have a proper explanations of the Onigafuchi past, that's that. Her interpretations are really beyond the scope, and Hanyuu somewhat confirmed that the rituals and such were done to rever Oyashiro.
Rei will only tie things about Hanyuu, Rika and Frederica Bernkastel.
It won't deal with the syndrome and such, as it is pretty much explainded completely.
Scientifically speaking, if it's baseless it's not a "theory" (for something to become theory, it by definition requires substantiating evidence) but a "hypothesis". I just cringe when I see "theory" misused as a term in relation to research, as it has pretty much the opposite meaning in regular layman's English, where it's used to mean an unsupported guess. I noticed that one of the prior manga translations actually made proper use of the terms, so it's not a complete digression, lol.
Anyway, while I agree the OVA will be side stories obviously, I don't agree yet that the syndrome is "pretty much explained completely" as that's what we were just discussing before this. If it is clearly drawn out what the origin of the syndrome is, I'd like to know what the answer is, along with why Furude blood is being used to make the vaccine. I'm still trying to wrap my head around those two (for the me at least) loose ends.
Going back over the dialog between Hanyuu and Ouka, this part struck me as perhaps not without relevance:
Hanyuu?: "Listen, my child. People live their lives in sin. And they can only live by blaming their faults against others. And none of them wants to be the only one taking the blame for everything, so they shove their sins against each other. That whole thing is the demon itself. Those...are the real demons that causes turmoil in this world. And I, will accept all the blame. If all the blame is shifted onto me, people will feel relieved and they will finally be freed from this demonic nature of doubting everyone.
Come my child, bring all the sins, hate, curses, and evil onto my body. And strike a fatal blow into my body with that sword, purify the village, let my intestines flow down the river, and dump my body into the marsh.
This can only be carried out by someone who is not of human blood. This cannot be done by anyone else. If a normal human does this, this will not free the people from doubt and suspicion of this chaotic nature."
This explanation of the "demon itself" and that last line strikes me as possibly addressing part of the issue. But how did we get from point A of Hanyuu sacrificing herself in order to "exorcize" the village to point B of the syndrome itself and the possible cure (assuming there is any connection, which I admit may just be more Takano-style connecting of dots)? I'd like to think the full solution is found somewhere in the story, but I'm not certain. Perhaps some things are deliberately left untold or are due to some "outside" influence...(considering the nature of Fredrica and company)
The first notice of the syndrome is from soldiers going crazy in World War II after being way from home for a period of time. This leads to the research which leads to Takano's involvement.
However from our knowledge the syndrome has only recently remanifested in the town, likely due to the dam project and heated debates. A question would be, if there was no dam project, would Takano have ever found any real "proof" of the syndrome's existance? Did her will cause the dam project to flare up so she could have her "proof"? Is she correct in her thoughts that she is the cause of the curse in recent times? Her will bringing the sins, hate, curses, and evil back into the town in conjuction with the heavily reduced Furude line of "half-demons" to calm the town?
Rika gives of herself to save Satoko. (and as a side Satoshi, though I doubt she knew that). However the nature of her giving, is it what Takano thinks? Is it a medical problem or a mystical problem?
When Hanyuu returns, it tips the balance again towards the Furude line and the "demons that sacrafice themselves to save the humans". This seems to be the only thing that stops Takano's will.
But the questions remain. What is the syndrome really? Is Rika's blood a cure, or is it more mystical because she's really making a sacrifice of herself for others? Is Takano the only reason the syndrome even came back in the first place? (If the WWII evidence is taken into account the answer might be no...however war brings out the evils of men...so it is not out of the question.)
Takano's theory may have facts behind them. The trouble is we (the viewers) have no clue if her facts are facts, or if she's just making stuff up as she goes. She could have the facts correct, but not knowing the reasoning behind her facts, and thus missing the point of her own facts. Or missing a piece (much like the viewers) that is vital to her final proof, but doesn't know the piece is missing.
Maybe the OVA or "Umineko" even, will clear up things a little. Or the answers are there...in the various other chapters of novels, manga, and games that will never be animated (or have yet to be translated even). Time will tell.
The first notice of the syndrome is from soldiers going crazy in World War II after being way from home for a period of time. This leads to the research which leads to Takano's involvement.
However from our knowledge the syndrome has only recently remanifested in the town, likely due to the dam project and heated debates. A question would be, if there was no dam project, would Takano have ever found any real "proof" of the syndrome's existance? Did her will cause the dam project to flare up so she could have her "proof"? Is she correct in her thoughts that she is the cause of the curse in recent times? Her will bringing the sins, hate, curses, and evil back into the town in conjuction with the heavily reduced Furude line of "half-demons" to calm the town?
There's no need to posit such a thing. Takano has an interest in saving Hinamizawa simply because that's where her research subjects are. Without her the dam war would have been averted and the villagers would have agreed simply because it would have been impossible for them to fight that decision. The support she provides towards saving the village is what tips things in their favor so that the Sonozakis decide to fight. This isn't really a supernatural effect.
Rika gives of herself to save Satoko. (and as a side Satoshi, though I doubt she knew that). However the nature of her giving, is it what Takano thinks? Is it a medical problem or a mystical problem?
When Hanyuu returns, it tips the balance again towards the Furude line and the "demons that sacrafice themselves to save the humans". This seems to be the only thing that stops Takano's will.
But the questions remain. What is the syndrome really? Is Rika's blood a cure, or is it more mystical because she's really making a sacrifice of herself for others? Is Takano the only reason the syndrome even came back in the first place? (If the WWII evidence is taken into account the answer might be no...however war brings out the evils of men...so it is not out of the question.)
Rika's blood isn't a cure to the syndrome. Rika's blood and cerebrospinal fluid are studied by Irie, but they have nothing more to do with the C series of drugs.
The syndrome emerged again quite simply because these men were in a stressful environment; battlefields tend to be like that. There's no need to assume a mystical connection there either. There's no evidence the syndrome is supernatural other than the fact it allows people to sense Hanyuu, but that can simply be explained by their senses becoming more sensitive. The fact Irie can develop treatments for it (and he estimates that he'll be able to also eventually develop a cure) indicates that it is a natural pathogen. It seems rather similar to a cross between toxoplasmosis and rabies (with the necessary modifications so that it can advance the plot).
Takano's theory may have facts behind them. The trouble is we (the viewers) have no clue if her facts are facts, or if she's just making stuff up as she goes. She could have the facts correct, but not knowing the reasoning behind her facts, and thus missing the point of her own facts. Or missing a piece (much like the viewers) that is vital to her final proof, but doesn't know the piece is missing.
Maybe the OVA or "Umineko" even, will clear up things a little. Or the answers are there...in the various other chapters of novels, manga, and games that will never be animated (or have yet to be translated even). Time will tell.
If it's a natural pathogen then you can't have an origin story since it simply evolved in that environment. And Ryuoukishi07 left the details out for good reason. The syndrome is already extremely implausible as a disease; adding more details would only serve to make it seem even more like a plot device. I'd say that the existence of a disease that so closely follows the needs of the story, often contradicting the way diseases and parasites act in reality, is one of the weak points of Higurashi.
devilkiller7
2008-08-12, 02:35
the hinamizawa syndrome was discovered during WWII when they realize some soldiers went berserk and tried to kill their own comrades. A rule was made to protect the spread of the virus by staying in hinamizawa and not let anyone in either. eventually through time the syndrome had weakened and ppl started to forget about the rule coz there were no one stressed out after the long war. it was the beginning of the dam construction that needed to wipe out hinamizawa that the syndrome became much stronger since everyone was in a state of anxiety of their town going underwater, and therefore they have to take that rule of staying in hinamizawa into account again. its their emotional states that activates the syndrome and even more when they try to leave the village that it becomes even easier to activate during their state of anixiety. ppl were left to fear oyahiros sama curse coz of this and that fear had them obey their god's rules again for fear of being onikakushi. its weird how the 4 murders were all absolutely coincidences and had nothing to relate to them except the dismembered dam manager and satokos parents. these murders cud have happened anytime if their stress level were high enough.
the hinamizawa syndrome was discovered during WWII when they realize some soldiers went berserk and tried to kill their own comrades. A rule was made to protect the spread of the virus by staying in hinamizawa and not let anyone in either. eventually through time the syndrome had weakened and ppl started to forget about the rule coz there were no one stressed out after the long war.
Wrong. The rules prohibiting the inhabitants of Onigafuchi from leaving the village had existed for centuries but fell in disuse decades ago. The syndrome was discovered by the Japanese government after WWII but they sat on that information until Miyo came along.
Why are you repeating that information anyway?
devilkiller7
2008-08-12, 04:05
Wrong. The rules prohibiting the inhabitants of Onigafuchi from leaving the village had existed for centuries but fell in disuse decades ago. The syndrome was discovered by the Japanese government after WWII but they sat on that information until Miyo came along.
Why are you repeating that information anyway?
umms were u paying attention what i just said? i mentioned "through time" i already knew the rule existed for a very long time. the rule wasnt just simply disused for no proper reason it was coz they feel the syndrome has weakened over the years and that now it is ok to go out the village as it probably wont produce anymore side effects. its only the recent dam construction that put the villagers in despair that the syndrome became more active again.
im just trying to clear things up for ppl refering back the history of hinamizawa
tobiast88
2008-08-12, 04:08
What is it about the 33 pages of info behind your comments and the countless other pages in other threads that make you think that we haven't heard this already and that we need you to make things "clearer"?
devilkiller7
2008-08-12, 05:43
What is it about the 33 pages of info behind your comments and the countless other pages in other threads that make you think that we haven't heard this already and that we need you to make things "clearer"?
if u havent noticed ppl are still talking about it before i made my comment. i just made a brief summary thats all, whats so bad about that?
Klashikari
2008-08-12, 06:22
Scientifically speaking, if it's baseless it's not a "theory" (for something to become theory, it by definition requires substantiating evidence) but a "hypothesis". I just cringe when I see "theory" misused as a term in relation to research, as it has pretty much the opposite meaning in regular layman's English, where it's used to mean an unsupported guess. I noticed that one of the prior manga translations actually made proper use of the terms, so it's not a complete digression, lol.
This is the very reason why I used quotes for that word. Whether they are hypothesis or complete garbage is irrelevant, as for the readers (plot wise), they are considered as theories as they simply give "facts" and such to the point they begin to believe in these (though Ooishi and Kuma saw lots of silly scrapbooks that would be hard to believe as "theories").
Maybe the OVA or "Umineko" even, will clear up things a little. Or the answers are there...in the various other chapters of novels, manga, and games that will never be animated (or have yet to be translated even). Time will tell.
Considering Rei and Umineko (especially Umineko, as there is absolutely no clue that a possible syndrome is there as well), there won't be any "answer", and just like what Eryops said, any further detail for the syndrome will hurt the suspension of disbelief.
if u havent noticed ppl are still talking about it before i made my comment. i just made a brief summary thats all, whats so bad about that?
You are just repeating the basic information of the syndrome that was explained over and over, which wasn't the question or the topic by ithekro, so hence why eryops and tobiast believe it was plain unecessary (Please do an EFFORT for the punctuation, spelling and grammar).
A problem exists in that there are supernatural elements in the situation. Hanyuu being only the most obvious one. The time looping being a second. Rika's personalies being a third. While these are pretty connected, you also have Hanyuu's story, which lead to my conclussion that their must be a mix of natural and supernatural reasons for the syndrome. A suspension of belief is already required for the story to work...why not for the syndrome itself? It would actually make sense that way.
Balancing the natural and supernatural I mean.
A problem exists in that there are supernatural elements in the situation. Hanyuu being only the most obvious one. The time looping being a second. Rika's personalies being a third. While these are pretty connected, you also have Hanyuu's story, which lead to my conclussion that their must be a mix of natural and supernatural reasons for the syndrome. A suspension of belief is already required for the story to work...why not for the syndrome itself? It would actually make sense that way.
Balancing the natural and supernatural I mean.
Just because the story has supernatural elements doesn't mean that all the parts of the story will have supernatural elements as well. For example the Great Hinamizawa Disaster is a completely natural event. Why should the syndrome be any different? Neither Rika nor Hanyuu ever mention a supernatural cause for the syndrome. Not just that, but they don't even claim there's a connection between them and the pathogen. Considering how much we learn about Rika's and Hanyuu's backstories, you'd imagine we'd also learn about a connection to the syndrome if one existed. The fact we don't, and that everyone treats it as a natural disease, is quite telling.
Problem that refrains the syndrome being supernatural is that...Higurashi is a murder mystery. That also means that a supernatural solution is not allowed. This is the main reason that Hanyuu doesn't do much but observe in all the question arcs. You can have "the characters were driven more insane because of Hanyuu's footsteps/presence", but not something like "Hanyuu spreaded the syndrome" or "Hanyuu made the initial increase of syndrome level ".
That's of course, if you don't consider the whole alien crashing thing in Miotsukushi-hen...
To be fair, "Supernatural" can also just mean that a natual cause is beyond the understanding of current science and human understanding in the present tense.
To be fair, "Supernatural" can also just mean that a natual cause is beyond the understanding of current science and human understanding in the present tense.
That seems like a rather poor definition to me. Should gravity be considered a supernatural phenomenon? After all we aren't certain what causes it or how to integrate it with the other forces. Was the photoelectric effect a supernatural phenomenon before Einstein elucidated it?
PS: Speaking of Hanyuu and her relationship with the syndrome, we shouldn't forget that L5 individuals didn't sense her as she really was but instead she appeared as whatever they were hallucinating about. E.g. Keiichi in Onikakushi-hen thinks she's Rena apologizing to him, while Rena in Tsumihoboroshi-hen thinks Hanyuu is an alien that's after her. I think the fact the syndrome doesn't let them see Hanyuu undistorted also indicates that it has little to do with her.
Things that are ever present and observed regularly, but still defy a rational explaination are generally accepted as natural (such as gravity). A thing that is rather uncommon and defys reason usually fits the realm of supernatural until such time as a rational explaination is provided or science is able to at least place a reason for such a thing to exist.
Gravity is and was every present. Newton didn't "discover" gravity, he just made it scientific. The property was not understood, but the results were clear as a falling stone everyday.
Supernovas are fairly rare within our limited field of vision. A star appears out of nowhere, possibly brighter than any in the sky for a period of time, then vanishes. We know what they are now, but many years ago..."a sign from the heavens", a supernatural event.
The syndrome presented in Higurashi defys reason from time to time, and its nature is not clearly understood, even by those in story researching it. They've identified the pathogen I believe after the first L5 incident. They've come up with a partial treatment. However the nature of the syndrome still defys reason in places. Mixed with the supernatural elements presented gives one pause as to what is causing the effects, or are the effects make the cause?
Hanyuu herself defys reason, but her backstory leads to a questioning on the nature of the syndrome. If her story is as she says, then the syndrome was around in her time. She is not the cause, but perhaps the cure, or the bloodline at least for the cure.
It is that her story maintains the demon background that makes the puzzle just that, a puzzle. The mystery is not solved, only the endless June has been broken. But then the best mysteries remain just that, unsolved.
cereal_killerxx
2008-08-15, 23:05
I have some questions about Onikakushi-hen seeing as I just finished reading it in the manga. At the end, right before he killed Rena and Mion what was in the suringe that injected him with? An antidote? Or more of the virus itself?
Shinigami_Mello
2008-08-15, 23:22
I'd reccomend checking Tsumihoroboshi-hen from the anime.
It was a marker. Mion and Rena were going to draw on him as a club punishment for not doing the Ohagi assignment and as a "Get well soon" (Like what they did to Tomitake earlier that chapter) because he was going to be taken to the clinic by Irie.
Sterling01
2008-08-15, 23:22
I have some questions about Onikakushi-hen seeing as I just finished reading it in the manga. At the end, right before he killed Rena and Mion what was in the suringe that injected him with? An antidote? Or more of the virus itself?
There was no syringe it was a marker
tobiast88
2008-08-16, 03:21
Honestly. How many times has this been addressed now?
Sterling01
2008-08-16, 04:00
Honestly. How many times has this been addressed now?
I think around 17 times :heh::heh:
cereal_killerxx
2008-08-16, 09:56
Honestly. How many times has this been addressed now?
Sorry, I'll read back through the posts next time. Didn't mean to be a burden.
devilkiller7
2008-08-16, 09:59
i watched the series again and i found some confusion between takano and the so called organization "tokyo."
1) was takano the leader of that organization? judging by the ending of ep 13, the higher ups did say "tokyo" was responsible for initiating such a ridiculous plan to limit the casualties as she somehow already convinced them about the queen carrier theory.
2) it seemed the organization "deployed" takano as one of the specific persons to do research on biological weapon for the organization in secret. this doesnt make her a leader except the only explanation was she deceived them into giving her that position to research of her own will to prove her fathers theories.
3) just how much authorities and persons did takano deceive?
4) takano was the leader of the irie clinic, doesnt this make her the leader of the organization?
5) the yamainu was to guard the secret of the organization "tokyo," however it seems takano bought them out with alot of money and have them follow her orders, did they also turn on tokyo? takano couldnt be the leader of "tokyo" if she bought them out like this, unless she IS the leader of the organization at the start and yamainu was bought by her a long time ago already.
6) did the yamainu at one point protect rika so she can be killed the right way by takano?
7) when takano said "there are people that wanted this hinamizawa bomb explode" did she mean herself and her yamainu subordinates?
8) takano said the tokyo wanted tomitake and irie to dismantle the hinzamizawa bomb(meaning to cure it) indicates she is not related to tokyo at this point. and then she says there are people in tokyo that does want it explode meaning it was herself wasnt it?
9) takano was extremely cunning in covering her tracks, she prevented herself to have any suspect from the village with tomitakes unusual death and her own disappearance by oyashiro sama surse, and uses rikas watanagashi death to have the government recognize the hinamizawa residence erratic behaviour due to parasites to order total annihilation. it seems she only wanted some of this news to be publicized otherwise it would not fit the curse with more than two deaths, or she would think the villagers are too caught up with the curse to even think properly, afterall they all believe it was a curse since the syndrome hasnt been publicized to raise fear in them. is this correct? (sorry if this is repeated)
sorry about the long post, but these are the questions i couldnt find on this thread. any help would be appreciated.
tobiast88
2008-08-16, 11:33
Couldn't find on the thread? Are you joking? All the answers you need are on the Animesuki threads. Just look a little.
Sterling01
2008-08-16, 12:37
Couldn't find on the thread? Are you joking? All the answers you need are on the Animesuki threads. Just look a little.
He said he couldn't find the questions
tobiast88
2008-08-16, 12:39
Fair enough.
As tobiast88 said, these have all been answered before and the show lays it all out very clearly as well, but anyway.
1) was takano the leader of that organization? judging by the ending of ep 13, the higher ups did say "tokyo" was responsible for initiating such a ridiculous plan to limit the casualties as she somehow already convinced them about the queen carrier theory.You answer your own question:
2) it seemed the organization "deployed" takano as one of the specific persons to do research on biological weapon for the organization in secret. this doesnt make her a leader except the only explanation was she deceived them into giving her that position to research of her own will to prove her fathers theories.
3) just how much authorities and persons did takano deceive?
She got the Yamainu. She also had some influence via Tokyo but had to use it covertly.
4) takano was the leader of the irie clinic, doesnt this make her the leader of the organization?
Irie is nominally the head of the Irie Institution.
5) the yamainu was to guard the secret of the organization "tokyo," however it seems takano bought them out with alot of money and have them follow her orders, did they also turn on tokyo? takano couldnt be the leader of "tokyo" if she bought them out like this, unless she IS the leader of the organization at the start and yamainu was bought by her a long time ago already.
Tokyo isn't a monolithic organization. They're effectively serving the faction Nomura works for.
6) did the yamainu at one point protect rika so she can be killed the right way by takano?
The Yamainu are tasked with protecting Rika's life at all costs. If they fail to do so it might raise suspicions about their loyalties before Operation Extermination is ready to be implemented.
7) when takano said "there are people that wanted this hinamizawa bomb explode" did she mean herself and her yamainu subordinates?
The faction in Tokyo Nomura serves wants it opponents to take the blame for the murder of 2000 civilians so that they lose political power.
8) takano said the tokyo wanted tomitake and irie to dismantle the hinzamizawa bomb(meaning to cure it) indicates she is not related to tokyo at this point. and then she says there are people in tokyo that does want it explode meaning it was herself wasnt it?
No.
9) takano was extremely cunning in covering her tracks, she prevented herself to have any suspect from the village with tomitakes unusual death and her own disappearance by oyashiro sama surse, and uses rikas watanagashi death to have the government recognize the hinamizawa residence erratic behaviour due to parasites to order total annihilation. it seems she only wanted some of this news to be publicized otherwise it would not fit the curse with more than two deaths, or she would think the villagers are too caught up with the curse to even think properly, afterall they all believe it was a curse since the syndrome hasnt been publicized to raise fear in them. is this correct? (sorry if this is repeated)
This paragraph is incomprehensible.
Klashikari
2008-08-16, 13:01
i watched the series again and i found some confusion between takano and the so called organization "tokyo."
...
sorry about the long post, but these are the questions i couldnt find on this thread. any help would be appreciated.
About Takano, she is nowhere near of being a leader of "Tokyo". She is only in charge of the irie institute research, nothing more. As a researcher, she has however a weight of decision because "she knows her stuff", while the higher ups are not really the specialists being able to question her knowledge and reports.
Yes, Takano bribed the Yamainu so she can use them as tools for her own agenda. They are supposed to protect the alphabet project research, but by doing so, Takano ensures that she can do whatever she wants, so triggering the emergency manual 34.
So Rika is indeed guarded so Takano can make sure Rika dies in the fashion she wants to, for her plan.
The goal of the Tokyo was primarely research on the syndrome, but ever since Koizumi died, the balance of power within Tokyo changed radically and the new "major" chiefs decided the researchs are too expensive and might be problematic to be exposed (tactical weapons etc). The research is then focused only on the cure research for only 3 years, which is obviously not what Takano wishes, as curing the syndrome would mean to eliminate it, and her possibility to prove her grandpa's theory.
And yes, Takano used that strategy to blurr completely the "motive" of such tragedy, and alongside, it is for her personal enjoyement.
devilkiller7
2008-08-17, 00:53
thanks for your time to go through all that, everything makes sense now.
devilkiller7
2008-08-17, 08:31
sorry if this a bother but i read somewhere that takano was the actual creator of the irie clinic to research the syndrome in secret while helping patients to secure their level 5 status and that koizumi was her support with the tokyo organization. some people also said takanos goals were to prove the syndrome and conduct a bioweapon for the fun of it and tokyo was not having any intentions for any bioweapons. it was koizumi and tokyo that helped takano continue the research only for her grandfather so why would she want to take the time to make a bioweapon? since when did her grandfather say anything about using it as a bioweapon? wouldnt this waste her time as well? when koizumi died it turned out they knew takano was trying to make a bioweapon from her research when they told her to stop it as it would waste too much money, how do you explain this? wasnt takano originally working for the tokyo organization, and that this whole bioweapon thing was tokyos idea, so takano was just following along with it to also research for her grandpas theories? it was said irie was killed for the same reason as tomitake for refusing her schemes, but was this the case? she didnt talk with irie. now i'm confused with iries death, he was said to have committed suicide with sleeping pills, but i thought okonogi had killed him. any explanations?
sorry if this a bother but i read somewhere that takano was the actual creator of the irie clinic to research the syndrome in secret while helping patients to secure their level 5 status and that koizumi was her support with the tokyo organization. some people also said takanos goals were to prove the syndrome and conduct a bioweapon for the fun of it and tokyo was not having any intentions for any bioweapons. it was koizumi and tokyo that helped takano continue the research only for her grandfather so why would she want to take the time to make a bioweapon? since when did her grandfather say anything about using it as a bioweapon? wouldnt this waste her time as well? when koizumi died it turned out they knew takano was trying to make a bioweapon from her research when they told her to stop it as it would waste too much money, how do you explain this? wasnt takano originally working for the tokyo organization, and that this whole bioweapon thing was tokyos idea, so takano was just following along with it to also research for her grandpas theories?
Please try to use proper spelling and grammar and not to ramble so much.
Tokyo's old guard was interested in creating weapons that would bring some parity between Japan and the US. Just because Koizumi was sympathetic towards her doesn't mean that he could support Miyo without some justification for his actions. He could only secure the funding from the Alphabet Project by promising the creation of a useful and unique biological agent.
it was said irie was killed for the same reason as tomitake for refusing her schemes, but was this the case? she didnt talk with irie. now i'm confused with iries death, he was said to have committed suicide with sleeping pills, but i thought okonogi had killed him. any explanations?
It's obvious that his "suicide" is just a cover story.
Klashikari
2008-08-17, 13:32
It is heavily hinted that Okonogi killed Irie, putting a huge narcotic dose in his tea. (and considering the Yamainu, they are obviously skilled enough to copy his handwriting, so hence the "suicide note").
Minagoroshi showed Irie with Okonogi, the former thinking takano is truely dead, while Okonogi mentions her as she is alive, and "keep going according to the plan", with Irie completely dumbfounded.
Basically, he was doomed the very moment he was alone with Okonogi.
Sorry if my question has been already answered, but i've read more than half of the thread and i don't see much posts about tatarigoroshi, whis is the arc that has left me most doubts.
let's see, I have two lines of thinking:
the first one, assuming that K1 actually killed teppei, that mion and rena were lying in classroom about being at the festival that night (trying to protect him by providing an alibi), that mion used the sonozaki house to hide the corpse (tsumihoroboshi), or even that they carried it to rena's treasure's mountain (and they were trying to tell him that evening inviting him there)... and, in a whole, that satoko was having hallucinations of his uncle and thus saying he was still home...
(alternatively, the keiichi who went tho the festival might have been shion in disguise? maybe hanyuu knows some henge no jutsu?)
the second one is assuming he actually was seeing delusions the night of the festival, and after that he went crazy running around, bruising his arms and legs and digging holes for nothing.... then the next morning rena, mion and satoko were saying the truth, and teppei was alive for one more day. Then that night, maybe both mion and rena killed him (and they were inviting K1, of course), hide the corpse... while poor satoko was left taking a looong bath at home
i think the former theory is stronger, because teppei appears to be missing when ooishi talks about the death of tomitake i the TIPS "The victim of the fifth year" (五年目の犠牲者)
in both cases, there's a BIG question at the end of the arc: what happens with satoko? the list of victims says "missing"
i somehow think the TIPS "note of grudges?" (恨み帳?) is about a grownup satoko living a sorrowful life far from hinamizawa, with the hinamizawa syndrome attacking her mind. but then again, that would mean the "dead guy" shouldn't be teppei? then she though something was posessing hi uncle, just like with keiichi?
to make long things short:
to which extent was actually satoko bullied, and how much of that bullying could be delusions?
Keiichi did murder Teppei. The first scenario is the correct one. Teppei goes missing (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=597447&postcount=61) on the night of the Watanagashi ritual, so the theory that he's left alive for another day and then killed by the Sonozakis cannot be correct.
in both cases, there's a BIG question at the end of the arc: what happens with satoko? the list of victims says "missing"
The people listed as missing are the ones who escaped being gassed and had to be shot or stabbed by the Yamainu. Since they couldn't leave any corpses with knife or bullet holes around these were destroyed, which is why they are classified as missing. Satoko was probably hunted down like in Yakusamashi-hen by the Yamainu and killed.
i somehow think the TIPS "note of grudges?" (恨み帳?) is about a grownup satoko living a sorrowful life far from hinamizawa, with the hinamizawa syndrome attacking her mind. but then again, that would mean the "dead guy" shouldn't be teppei? then she though something was posessing hi uncle, just like with keiichi?
That note speaks in the present tense. It couldn't have been written by an adult Satoko because it describes a situation that was still occurring. Besides, Satoko had reverted to L5 so she would have clawed her throat out in a matter of days even if she had somehow managed to escape the Yamainu.
to make long things short:
to which extent was actually satoko bullied, and how much of that bullying could be delusions?
Satoko was bullied by her aunt and uncle, however it's impossible to know how much of it real and how much of it was hallucinations.
devilkiller7
2008-08-17, 18:02
It is heavily hinted that Okonogi killed Irie, putting a huge narcotic dose in his tea. (and considering the Yamainu, they are obviously skilled enough to copy his handwriting, so hence the "suicide note").
Minagoroshi showed Irie with Okonogi, the former thinking takano is truely dead, while Okonogi mentions her as she is alive, and "keep going according to the plan", with Irie completely dumbfounded.
Basically, he was doomed the very moment he was alone with Okonogi.
they should have at least shown irie drinking something to give us better clues as to why he had been killed, i think strongly irie had already drank something before okonogi was on standby to write the suicide note after the drug in irie's drink had taken effect. i would not think okonogi tried stuffing sleeping pills in his throat when he was on standby because irie already found out okonogi was one of the enemies when he mentioned takano's message, in any case this would have lead to a obvious struggle.
devilkiller7
2008-08-17, 18:26
Please try to use proper spelling and grammar and not to ramble so much.
Tokyo's old guard was interested in creating weapons that would bring some parity between Japan and the US. Just because Koizumi was sympathetic towards her doesn't mean that he could support Miyo without some justification for his actions. He could only secure the funding from the Alphabet Project by promising the creation of a useful and unique biological agent.
It's obvious that his "suicide" is just a cover story.
I don't see any problems with my spelling except punctuation but thanks for reminding me.
So koizumi was forced into an agreement to help takano continue with her research, and since he died that agreement was no longer an option and takano was left with nobody to support her research, and money was a mess so bioweaponry along with her research were to cease immediately. Now i think i understand.
That makes sense, thanks for the help
I don't see any problems with my spelling except punctuation but thanks for reminding me.
So koizumi was forced into an agreement to help takano continue with her research, and since he died that agreement was no longer an option and takano was left with nobody to support her research, and money was a mess so bioweaponry along with her research were to cease immediately. Now i think i understand.
That makes sense, thanks for the help
Koizumi wasn't forced into an agreement to help Takano. He helps Takono Miyo because of his relationship with Hifumi and wanted Miyo to finish what Hifumi left behind: the research in the syndrome. Koizumi was an influencial person in Tokyo, was able to pull alot of strings together, and was the main reason why the institute was established and could continue on in the first place. Once Koizumi died, Takano lost her footing in Tokyo as they were unconvinced by her research. That is, Hinamizawa Syndrome sounded absurd and did not seem like it could be used in bio-warfare.
(and considering the Yamainu, they are obviously skilled enough to copy his handwriting, so hence the "suicide note").
True enough, they did the same thing for Rika's mom the third year.
And about Satoko and her hallucination; She call the child protection twice and it said tha the second time she was faking . So the first time should be true ( a ex-stepfather) . It could mean than her hallucination could be ''Teppei'' or ''someone else''
they should have at least shown irie drinking something to give us better clues as to why he had been killed, i think strongly irie had already drank something before okonogi was on standby to write the suicide note after the drug in irie's drink had taken effect.
Irie is shown drinking tea given to him by Okonogi in Minagoroshi-hen. It is made pretty obvious what's going on.
Koizumi wasn't forced into an agreement to help Takano. He helps Takono Miyo because of his relationship with Hifumi and wanted Miyo to finish what Hifumi left behind: the research in the syndrome. Koizumi was an influencial person in Tokyo, was able to pull alot of strings together, and was the main reason why the institute was established and could continue on in the first place. Once Koizumi died, Takano lost her footing in Tokyo as they were unconvinced by her research. That is, Hinamizawa Syndrome sounded absurd and did not seem like it could be used in bio-warfare.
Agreed. And there was also the fact that the new guard replacing Koizumi's faction who hadn't lived through Japan's defeat by the US wasn't interested in developing new and extremely expensive weapons; especially ones banned by international treaties Japan had signed.
True enough, they did the same thing for Rika's mom the third year.
Or perhaps Takano threatened to murder Rika in addition to Rika's mother and/or vivisect her without the use of anesthetic. In the case of Rika's mother once they had captured her its possible they could pressure her and/or torture her into writing a note. Of course we can't be sure what really happened.
devilkiller7
2008-08-18, 00:21
Koizumi wasn't forced into an agreement to help Takano. He helps Takono Miyo because of his relationship with Hifumi and wanted Miyo to finish what Hifumi left behind: the research in the syndrome. Koizumi was an influencial person in Tokyo, was able to pull alot of strings together, and was the main reason why the institute was established and could continue on in the first place. Once Koizumi died, Takano lost her footing in Tokyo as they were unconvinced by her research. That is, Hinamizawa Syndrome sounded absurd and did not seem like it could be used in bio-warfare.
So you're saying that koizumi was the one giving tokyo the funds to begin their research for the biological weapon from the syndrome in order to support takano with her chance to finish off her research. That make sense as developing a bioweapon means you will need to do research about it(takano's life devotion) so basically she somehow got koizumi to involve her in the biological weapon project to finish her research, correct? she did graduate with the highest scores in studies with parasites so i suppose tokyo would also want to recruit her as a member to research the syndrome for them
So you're saying that koizumi was the one giving tokyo the funds to begin their research for the biological weapon from the syndrome in order to support takano with her chance to finish off her research. That make sense as developing a bioweapon means you will need to do research about it(takano's life devotion) so basically she somehow got koizumi to involve her in the biological weapon project to finish her research, correct? she did graduate with the highest scores in studies with parasites so i suppose tokyo would also want to recruit her as a member to research the syndrome for them
No. Think of Tokyo as a secret society to which a lot of influential politicians belong to. Koizumi is one such individual who is part of Tokyo and who has a high position in it. They are able to subvert and channel government funds to projects that the society considers important. Since one of their interests was weapons development Koizumi was able to use his influence in Tokyo to have them fund one such project as a way of making up for not defending Hifumi earlier on in his career. The reason Koizumi supports Miyo is to redeem himself for not helping his friend back then.
devilkiller7
2008-08-18, 04:01
No. Think of Tokyo as a secret society to which a lot of influential politicians belong to. Koizumi is one such individual who is part of Tokyo and who has a high position in it. They are able to subvert and channel government funds to projects that the society considers important. Since one of their interests was weapons development Koizumi was able to use his influence in Tokyo to have them fund one such project as a way of making up for not defending Hifumi earlier on in his career. The reason Koizumi supports Miyo is to redeem himself for not helping his friend back then.
ok let me try to putting this in my terms, you're saying koizumi was one of the most top persons of tokyo that can raise funds for any project tokyo thinks is worth conducting, and he did this because he wants to make up for not helping hifumi with his career. ok now my question is HOW exactly was he supporting takano by funding the biological weapon project that tokyo wants to conduct? i'm pretty sure i answered this question myself a whole lot of times but i cannot reach a straight forward answer. i just assumed that koizumi was the reason that gave takano her chance to continue her research, because without him the research just came to an abruptly end. koizumi must've told all tokyo members to give takano her wants to research the syndrome she desires as he promised them he would fund for their biological weapon wants.
ok let me try to putting this in my terms, you're saying koizumi was one of the most top persons of tokyo that can raise funds for any project tokyo thinks is worth conducting, and he did this because he wants to make up for not helping hifumi with his career. ok now my question is HOW exactly was he supporting takano by funding the biological weapon project that tokyo wants to conduct? i'm pretty sure i answered this question myself a whole lot of times but i cannot reach a straight forward answer. i just assumed that koizumi was the reason that gave takano her chance to continue her research, because without him the research just came to an abruptly end. koizumi must've told all tokyo members to give takano her wants to research the syndrome she desires as he promised them he would fund for their biological weapon wants.
Takano is given the funds to conduct the research that she hopes will prove her grandfather's theories because Tokyo wants a biological weapon being produced out of the project. They aren't a charity. It's a trade; Takano gets vast funds she can use to study the syndrome and in exchange develops a biological weapon for Tokyo.
This is like trying to draw blood from a stone.
devilkiller7
2008-08-18, 07:27
Takano is given the funds to conduct the research that she hopes will prove her grandfather's theories because Tokyo wants a biological weapon being produced out of the project. They aren't a charity. It's a trade; Takano gets vast funds she can use to study the syndrome and in exchange develops a biological weapon for Tokyo.
This is like trying to draw blood from a stone.
Ah so i was right afterall XD. After koizumi died he can no longer hold the agreement with the old tokyo members about bioloigical weapons as they were replaced, so they had to conclude the biological weapon project as the koizumi faction was replaced by people who has no intentions of doing this, in addition of wasting money. By "trade" do you mean koizumi negotiated with tokyo about the money thats given to takano about promising that takano will have the knowledge needed to conduct a bioweapon?
Rehash...step by step. Perhaps not needed, but there seems to be some sort of communications block happening.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Koizumi was the last of the "Old Gaurd" type politicials to die. He'd been through the Second World War and the occupation of Japan. In his day, Tokyo wanted something to regain what they lost against the United States. Something either to counter the Americans atom bomb, revenge, or at least a way to become an equal again, rather than a beaten people.
The "New Guard" are people born after the war and occupation. They have no heavy desire to get back at the United States thought military action. They kept with Koizumi's projects out of respect and tradition.
Koizumi failed to give support to his friend, Hifumi (Takano's grandfather), when he was younger. Thus when Takano comes of age and tries to resume her grandfather's research, Hifumi feels guilty and ashamed for not supporting his friend. In order to repay for his debt to Hifumi, he supports Takano as best that he can. A research institute.
However to secure funding for a weird search for a microbre, Koizumi has to provide a cover and a reason to give anything more than just a grant. Potential use as a bio-weapon gets that funding.
Koizumi dies.
The "New Guard" have no used for an illegal bio-weapons project. Takano tries to make them see her grandfather's research is correct. They admit the microbre exists since they have a partial cure for it. However the rest of her theories are laughed at (driving her into depression/madness). The research is cut to three years to cure the town of the microbres and that is final.
No proof for Hifumi's theories and thus to Takano, total failure.
Rika's blood isn't a cure to the syndrome. Rika's blood and cerebrospinal fluid are studied by Irie, but they have nothing more to do with the C series of drugs.
The syndrome emerged again quite simply because these men were in a stressful environment; battlefields tend to be like that. There's no need to assume a mystical connection there either. There's no evidence the syndrome is supernatural other than the fact it allows people to sense Hanyuu, but that can simply be explained by their senses becoming more sensitive. The fact Irie can develop treatments for it (and he estimates that he'll be able to also eventually develop a cure) indicates that it is a natural pathogen. It seems rather similar to a cross between toxoplasmosis and rabies (with the necessary modifications so that it can advance the plot).
If it's a natural pathogen then you can't have an origin story since it simply evolved in that environment. And Ryuoukishi07 left the details out for good reason. The syndrome is already extremely implausible as a disease; adding more details would only serve to make it seem even more like a plot device. I'd say that the existence of a disease that so closely follows the needs of the story, often contradicting the way diseases and parasites act in reality, is one of the weak points of Higurashi.
Sorry to not reply to this thread for a while, but I've mulled over these points that Eryops made and it is clear to me now that the Rika's samples are probably not connected to the vaccine other than as a facet of Takano's dead-end research from all the clues given. I have to write off the whole blood thing as now being an incorrect assumption that arose partly from confusing cause, effect, and seeming parallels in interpreting the local history and folklore, which ties in well thematically with the contemporary events. I am satsified now that the supernatural (Hanyuu and so forth) and the natural (the Hinamizawa syndrome pathogen) are fully compartmentalized and are for the most part non-overlapping--as they should be.
Yes the minute details and origins of the pathogen are mysterious, but not a whole lot more so than, say, Ebola or AIDS are in the real world, so I can accept that it is simply a natural (albeit a bit contrived, as noted) evolved pathogen and thus isolates the supernatural part of the story merely to Hanyuu's existence and ability to manipulate time. This works best for me as it keeps the supernatural aspect a single conceit that doesn't otherwise interfere with the natural events that comprise the mystery itself once it has been identified and isolated.
Metadashi, metadashi. :cool:
Yes the minute details and origins of the pathogen are mysterious, but not a whole lot more so than, say, Ebola or AIDS are in the real world, so I can accept that it is simply a natural (albeit a bit contrived, as noted) evolved pathogen and thus isolates the supernatural part of the story merely to Hanyuu's existence and ability to manipulate time.
I think the most implausible parts of the pathogen are its distribution and (lack of) resilience. The syndrome is extremely contagious, as a short stay in Hinamizawa is enough to for someone to become a carrier (as evidenced by Tomitake). However despite that fact it is only located in Hinamizawa. Presumably the organism is transmitted aerially (perhaps Onigafuchi swamp is the source since it gets filled in with cement after the disaster). Interpersonal transmission cannot be taking place since carriers would be able to easily spread it to others when they left Hinamizawa and it wouldn't be contained there. However in order for a microbe, whether a virus, bacterium or protist, to be able to survive in the air it has to be very robust as it has to endure both dessication and UV radiation exposure. As a result the fact it's so sensitive that it cannot survive outside of Hinamizawa doesn't make sense. Furthermore, the fact that it completely degrades almost immediately after its host dies doesn't make sense either. An organism this sensitive shouldn't be able to survive, much less act as a pathogen.
Of course the disease being localized and extremely hard to detect is necessary for the plot of the story, however Hinamizawa syndrome makes no sense from a biological perspective.
devilkiller7
2008-08-18, 23:45
Rehash...step by step. Perhaps not needed, but there seems to be some sort of communications block happening.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Koizumi was the last of the "Old Gaurd" type politicials to die. He'd been through the Second World War and the occupation of Japan. In his day, Tokyo wanted something to regain what they lost against the United States. Something either to counter the Americans atom bomb, revenge, or at least a way to become an equal again, rather than a beaten people.
The "New Guard" are people born after the war and occupation. They have no heavy desire to get back at the United States thought military action. They kept with Koizumi's projects out of respect and tradition.
Koizumi failed to give support to his friend, Hifumi (Takano's grandfather), when he was younger. Thus when Takano comes of age and tries to resume her grandfather's research, Hifumi feels guilty and ashamed for not supporting his friend. In order to repay for his debt to Hifumi, he supports Takano as best that he can. A research institute.
However to secure funding for a weird search for a microbre, Koizumi has to provide a cover and a reason to give anything more than just a grant. Potential use as a bio-weapon gets that funding.
Koizumi dies.
The "New Guard" have no used for an illegal bio-weapons project. Takano tries to make them see her grandfather's research is correct. They admit the microbre exists since they have a partial cure for it. However the rest of her theories are laughed at (driving her into depression/madness). The research is cut to three years to cure the town of the microbres and that is final.
No proof for Hifumi's theories and thus to Takano, total failure.
Ok this will be the final summary
Koizumi in order to support takano's research must provide an eligible reason to do such research, and that reason is to fund for tokyo's biological weaponry. Since koizumi is the last of the "old" tokyo members, he used their wants of a biological weapon as a reason to help support takano's research. BUT the irie clinic is also there to serve as a disguise to cure the syndrome, is it because a cure will not be any relation to the research itself to prove her grandpa's theories therefore koizumi had to use the bioweapon as the reason as it needs research on it? Why can't he use the "curing the syndrome" reason as it also does needs research of the syndrome to establish a cure? The bioweapon scheme is more unsafe than the cure reason.
The research will still continue as long as koizumi is around preventing the "new" tokyo members from protesting against him as he is still their superior.
Therefore since koizumi died, the "new" tokyo members were able to take control of his matter of biological weapons and put an end to it as they the "new" tokyo members have no intention of conducting such research bioweapons. Thus they concluded the syndrome was absurd at the fact they control human thoughts and mind, and a cure was already in experimental stages of completion conducted by irie who was always looking for a cure and not a bioweapon as the old tokyo had intended. As the cure is nearly complete and the syndrome will soon be extinguished and can never be proven its effect therefore failure in proving her grandpa's theory.
Then along came nomura who wants to help takano for her purpose of causing tokyo to lose political power with their responsible for emergency plan 34 and gains their power to have the research to themselves.
I think the most implausible parts of the pathogen are its distribution and (lack of) resilience. The syndrome is extremely contagious, as a short stay in Hinamizawa is enough to for someone to become a carrier (as evidenced by Tomitake). However despite that fact it is only located in Hinamizawa. Presumably the organism is transmitted aerially (perhaps Onigafuchi swamp is the source since it gets filled in with cement after the disaster). Interpersonal transmission cannot be taking place since carriers would be able to easily spread it to others when they left Hinamizawa and it wouldn't be contained there. However in order for a microbe, whether a virus, bacterium or protist, to be able to survive in the air it has to be very robust as it has to endure both dessication and UV radiation exposure. As a result the fact it's so sensitive that it cannot survive outside of Hinamizawa doesn't make sense. Furthermore, the fact that it completely degrades almost immediately after its host dies doesn't make sense either. An organism this sensitive shouldn't be able to survive, much less act as a pathogen.
Of course the disease being localized and extremely hard to detect is necessary for the plot of the story, however Hinamizawa syndrome makes no sense from a biological perspective.
Hm, wasn't Tomitake given the pathogen as an injection?
I am not a biologist, but the degradation indeed sounds more to serve the plot than based in reality.
Now attributing it to the Onigafuchi swamp is interesting in relation to the story of Hanyuu and Ouka, to dip back toward the semi-supernatural. The story suggests that her body had become contaminated by absorbing what sounds a lot like the syndrome from the villagers and then her body was disemboweled and dumped in the swamp. This was one thing I was reading into that part of the story before at least.
One other, weirder thought just hit me. What if Hanyuu actually had the syndrome, hence she went paranoid about what the villagers wanted to do to her and this is why she directed Ouka to kill her? :( This makes a certain amount more sense than here "absorbing" from the villagers, at least, if what is being described is even the syndrome at all (and not just a normal story of an outcast facing a lynch mob, as I'd originally assume).
Going back to Takano-obfuscates-everything mode, I figured the paving over of the swamp was primarily a red herring either left by the government to give the public the sense that the matter had been dealt with, and thus left as a plot device to confuse the reader/viewer into buying more into Takano's "theories", plus perhaps a number of bodies and evidence was disposed of there. But if there is some connection between the pathogen and the swamp, then I'm inclined to believe that there could still remain some natural or supernatural connection to the Hannyu/Ouka story that hasn't been puzzled out yet.
Could a pathogen survive in the swamp and only live in an airborne state at night or twilight? Thus adding in the figurative sound of the higurashi. If it's tolerances for being airborne are so small, it might only be able to infect people over a given range before daybreak (or the cold of night). It may also only be the narrow band of hot night in summer that allow such a thing to spread and still not have much resilience. Also such a limiting factor would hinder its range considerably. I don't know if such a thing is biologically possible, but it is the best lead so far that doesn't dip into the supernatural.
In the end, the mixed natural-supernatual explaination may be the only possible answer left.
Hm, wasn't Tomitake given the pathogen as an injection?
Tomitake is injected with H173, a compound that causes the pathogen to go out of control and sends the patient almost immediately at L5. It won't have an effect on someone who isn't a carrier.
Going back to Takano-obfuscates-everything mode, I figured the paving over of the swamp was primarily a red herring either left by the government to give the public the sense that the matter had been dealt with, and thus left as a plot device to confuse the reader/viewer into buying more into Takano's "theories", plus perhaps a number of bodies and evidence was disposed of there. But if there is some connection between the pathogen and the swamp, then I'm inclined to believe that there could still remain some natural or supernatural connection to the Hannyu/Ouka story that hasn't been puzzled out yet.
That's actually a pretty good idea. I thought there might be a link between the syndrome and the swamp because the latter was filled in, but perhaps the real reason the Yamainu filled it with cement is because they dumped all the corpses of the people they murdered without the use of gas there and wanted to make sure nobody would ever find them. After all, the swamp has traditionally been used to dump corpses in and Takano would probably enjoy upholding that tradition. To be honest I think that this theory for the filling in of Onigafuchi is more likely than there being a connection between it and the syndrome.
In the end, the mixed natural-supernatual explaination may be the only possible answer left.
I think you are overanalyzing things. Just because a real pathogen can't behave in such a manner doesn't mean that a fictional pathogen has to be restricted in the same way. Ryukishi07 doesn't provide almost any information regarding the pathogen's life cycle or mode of transmission. I think this is intentional since he realizes that it's pretty much impossible to have such a pathogen sound realistic and thus chooses to gloss over the details; just as he glosses over the fact that Hanyuu never bothers to spy on Tomitake and Takano on the night of the Watanagashi ritual. As a result I think that since Ryukishi07 provides no evidence of a supernatural origin for the syndrome, he intends the pathogen to be natural but quite simply has to have it behave in a non-realistic manner to fit the plot. I don't believe its behavior alone is enough to justify believing in a supernatural origin for it.
This talk about the pathogene ( source, realism etc...) is going for how much day?
Who know, maybe even Ryukishi07 did'nt fixed his mind on thoses points, we could be arguing about answer than do not exist.
This talk about the pathogene ( source, realism etc...) is going for how much day?
Who know, maybe even Ryukishi07 did'nt fixed his mind on thoses points, we could be arguing about answer than do not exist.
It's a discussion, not an arguement....:heh: And technically, this matter's been discussed as part of the mystery well before this latest string of posts, so rather than days, you might ask how many months (years?) it has been....:D
Actually I think a lot of interesting insights have come out of this, and it's cleared up a lot of areas that were murkier before (at least for me!). I think the point has already been made that Ryukishi07 may well have left some things open deliberately, but the key to unravelling the mystery is identifying and corroborating which facts and clues he has left in the work.
It's a discussion, not an arguement....:heh: And technically, this matter's been discussed as part of the mystery well before this latest string of posts, so rather than days, you might ask how many months (years?) it has been....:D
Actually I think a lot of interesting insights have come out of this, and it's cleared up a lot of areas that were murkier before (at least for me!). I think the point has already been made that Ryukishi07 may well have left some things open deliberately, but the key to unravelling the mystery is identifying and corroborating which facts and clues he has left in the work.
Sorry for the little error, and I must say than I agree with you ; this discussion is quite enjoyable and lots of interestings thing came out of it, but the fact remain than the answer might not exist/being selected by Ryukishi07.
Agreed, too. Yay, now it's a mutual consensus, lol. :heh:
Ah, changing gears a little, what should we make of Hanyuu's original incarnation? What exactly is she? A human born with horns? It's a rather strange abberation to say the least and seems almost as supernatural as the rest of her later existence. Are there any clues here or is this the limit of how far back we can go? :confused:
Sterling01
2008-08-21, 14:11
Ah, changing gears a little, what should we make of Hanyuu's original incarnation? What exactly is she? A human born with horns? It's a rather strange abberation to say the least and seems almost as supernatural as the rest of her later existence. Are there any clues here or is this the limit of how far back we can go? :confused:
She's a demon who was killed by her own daughter
Hmm... but is it accepted that she is a demon per se, or is that just how she is brandished?
Sterling01
2008-08-21, 14:20
Hmm... but is it accepted that she is a demon per se, or is that just how she is brandished?
IIRC It's not made clear
A really cute demon at that.
IIRC It's not made clear
I thought it was fairly clear from the dialog that "oni" (demon, ogre, take your pick) was what she was dubbed *because* she had horns on her head, not the other way around. I don't think "because she was an oni" really answers the larger question as to what is the reason for her oni-like appearance--was she actually one, or just identified as one because of her appearance? If she was indeed one, were there more? Does the existence of one or more oni in turn validate some of the supernatural causes and Hinamizawa/Onigafuchi lore we've discussed? Is it correlation or coincidence?
Of course, Hanyuu's continued existence as a god is supernatural, is it much a stretch to assume her pre-death existence as supernatural as well? As I lean toward naturalistic explanations, I'm a little puzzled how to view this part of the mystery.
Im just wondering, but why was Keiichi screaming at the end of the Sevens Mart tips?
Klashikari
2008-09-04, 17:27
We will obviously never know exactly, he broke big time, though I would assume that he saw "something like Rena" or Rena herself.
Im just wondering, but why was Keiichi screaming at the end of the Sevens Mart tips?
My guess is that he saw Hanyuu but altered in a way to fit with his paranoid delusions, just as Rena when she sees what she thinks is an alien following her in Tsumihoboroshi-hen. Since he's afraid of Rena it may well have been an image of her.
Hmm, I guess that makes sense.
I have another question. With the The Great Hinamizawa Disaster Casualties List, what do they mean by "Accident during evacuation of the Great Hinamizawa Disaster" under Chie? And why did Shion commit suicide?
Possibly they were outside what would be considered the "dead zone" so their deaths to thr Great Disaster woudn't fit the actual deaths. I would think these would be people that couldn't be rounded up, or resisted. Shion would fight if she was in town. Otherwise she would be depressed, having lost everyone she has ever cared about and much (if not all) of her family. Chie probably would resist....especially if they caught her eating curry.
I wonder how many (if any) military/special forces guys got killed or wounded during this event?
While they never really explained it, "accident/missing" probably means they didn't die by the gas. Minagoroshi-hen has shown that some people tried to escape the school after being round up, and were shot. So, the principle, being the martial arts master, and Chie, who was secretly sent by the Burial Agency, probably were among the people who sensed something was wrong and tried to escape.
As for Shion suicide...it's very likely diguised by an inside job, just like the others who survived the disaster but knew enough about the village (Keiichi/Kasai/Mion/Satoko in various arcs). I don't think Shion would suicide becuase of losing her family and friends, mainly due to her personality and attitude towards the people in the casulity list. (Well, there IS Mion and Kasai...but I have the feeling that she would rather go find out the truth behind the incident instead of getting depressed and commit suicide)
I am not sure than we can say tha Shion would be fine if Hinamizawa would dissapear.
Even if she feel like a outsider, she is a outsider from Hinamizawa, that is a part of her.
Thinking about it some more:
Now assuming Shion who suicided is Shion, not Mion (Mion probably has more reason to suicide), and having the pre-Meakashi-hen mentaility, we know that she
- Moved to Okinomiya with her family before elementary school. Spent her elementary school days in Okinomiya, but probably spent some time with the club memebers by posing as Mion.
- Moved to St.Lucia Academy in S56 for 1/2 years.
-"Frieightingly cold" by Mion (okay, we know that she can also be very caring for others)
-"Not good at controlling her own emotion" by Rika. Easily excited, somewhat emotionally unstable in S58
-At least L3? Easily sensed a presence and heard footsteps in Watanagashi/Meakashi.
After the disaster, she would've only lost Mion and Kasai. Maybe she's got a thing for Keiichi, but Satoshi should take over in her mind when that happens. Since people in Okinomiya are fine, her parents most likely survived. She also didn't care for Oryou at that time. However, seeing her personality, I would say she probably she went out to poke around for the truth, or learned something from Keichi/Kasai and tried to confront something/something and got "suicided".
Of course, it's all speculation, but I find it hard to believe for someone like her to have suicided. She didn't suicide when Satoshi disappeared, after all; she went out to poke around for the truth, then went on a rampage.
Unless of course she had remembered Satoshi's request and was doing it from time to time. She would have failed to take care of Satoko. Also anyone see would have considered to have has any knowledge on Satoshi would now be dead, right?
But her "suicide" depends on when and where. It also could be that she did start snooping, and was "silenced". Or she arrived back in town before the reports were out (or because of thr reports, but before the operation was finished...."boom".
I am not sure than we can say tha Shion would be fine if Hinamizawa would dissapear.
Even if she feel like a outsider, she is a outsider from Hinamizawa, that is a part of her.
In Yoigoshi-hen she manages quite well for herself after the disaster and even tries to regain control of the Sonozaki group after its leadership gets usurped by a different faction. Her being assassinated in Tatarigoroshi-hen seems fairly plausible. But then again characters do react differently in different worlds.
bigemperor
2008-09-08, 15:34
I have a big question about higurashi no nakukoroni Kai
In the anime in chapter 18 the episode ends with a great scene showing keiichi arriving at school.
Afar, Rika is observing them with Hanyuu (who is in her spirit form). Rika says she was tired of waiting him that all is too bored without him. Hanyuu approves as keiichi will bring the miracle. Then Rika says they have the last piece to defeat Takano’s will and this is Hanyuu. Then she invites her spiritual companion to begin SHE has lived 100 years for this world…
But then in episode 19 that is situated in the present and hanyu materialize, they don’t remembered anything about takano until hanyu saw her en the forest I REALLY DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY from episode 16 -18 it seems that rika is gathering the pieces to fight takano but then she doesn’t remember anything about takano(I also read the piece 51 translated about how they ask for help to akasaka in the future)
In sumarry
why rika forget that takano is the mastermind in chapter 19 but in chapter 18 she remembered all about her?
bigemperor
2008-09-08, 19:50
Saikoroshi-hen will explain both of these.
Sure? i read the plot of Saikoroshi-hen and i don't see any connection with Bernkastel, i am missing something?
Klashikari
2008-09-08, 19:58
If you read the novel version of Rei, you will see that it is explained (not completely, but a fair amount already).
Until they screw up the OVA, it should be explained, especially for umineko afterwards.
Such optimism around here....
bigemperor
2008-09-08, 20:36
If you read the novel version of Rei, you will see that it is explained (not completely, but a fair amount already).
Until they screw up the OVA, it should be explained, especially for umineko afterwards.
I hope so, i know everything about frederica thanks to your excellent blog but lot of people don’t know nothing even who she is that’s why i want the anime to explain it at least a bit.
Yesterday I finished the first game of umineko thanks to the patch, it was amazing I really enjoy it especially the end and both tea party (when Bernkastel appear I really can’t believe it, I was so glad that I read everything about her in Klashikari blog)
Sterling01
2008-09-09, 00:25
Klash... when did you write about Bern in your blog?
bigemperor
2008-09-09, 13:28
any answer? =(
Best guess: The Rika we see in episode 18 is Dark Rika (Bern?) before she really "enters" Rika. By episode 19, Dark Rika and Haynuu reenter the present world, which disorients them I guess. I suppose Rika had forgotten and Hanyuu was getting use to having a body again that it required a trigger to remember things.
Not an expert...but that is the best assumtion I can come up with with avalible data.
bigemperor
2008-09-09, 17:28
Best guess: The Rika we see in episode 18 is Dark Rika (Bern?) before she really "enters" Rika. By episode 19, Dark Rika and Haynuu reenter the present world, which disorients them I guess. I suppose Rika had forgotten and Hanyuu was getting use to having a body again that it required a trigger to remember things.
Not an expert...but that is the best assumtion I can come up with with avalible data.
Thanks, is a good theory because hanyu remembered all about Minagoroshi-hen that's why she confront takano in the epic scene from episode 15 and we have to assume that when she materialize she forget the events from Minagoroshi-hen, still i continue to have doubts about rika because her "frederica mode" is still her and she remember everything when she is in that "mode" i really don get it XD
tobiast88
2008-09-09, 17:45
You try being reincarnated for the nth time, see if you remember everything from all your past lives.
It was said that Rika doesn't remember much of anything around the time of her death (which is why she decided against anaesthesia when Takano killed in Minagoroshi-hen, to burn it in her mind), and Hanyuu probably hides whenever Rika got killed before that (though this is a pretty big plot hole, as many people on the forums have theorised).
Ryuugu-chan
2008-09-09, 17:49
....I'm really not understanding something in Higurashi
Who exactly is "Dark" Rika?
I thought Fredrika just went back in time in the past worlds,and changed them so that the tradegies,such as deaths caused by one of Rika's friends or the Hinamizawa Disaster,aren't caused in that world.
How does she "enter" Rika,I though that Rika with the maturer,non Rika-e, voice is Rika,just...Changed her voice and is acting more mature.
Klashikari
2008-09-09, 17:55
@bigemperor: for Frederica being there already, remember that we don't know "when" Frederica was born. Remember that each things she does in the past, it is kept as "done", such like telling the future to Akasaka.
In such instance, you can say the "frederica there" is actually the old frederica before the one from Minagoroshi is about to arrive and take "possession" of the current Rika of Matsuribayashi, and at that moment, she loses the memories about that.
@Ryuuguu-chan: Frederica is basically a consciousness that elevated herself beyond a "human consciousness" due the fact she was looping for 100 years worth of lives, merging all the time the same consciousness and memories over and over again (this is kinda explained in the prologue of Minagoroshi-hen).
Basically, Frederica leaves the world when she dies, and her consciousness is sent to another hinamizawa, fusing with the current Rika over there.
Makes one wonder how much of the Mion/Shion story lines Hanyuu knows about after Rika dies. I'm almost certain Hanyuu is present when Satoko dies (the repeated "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry...", out of Mion seems more like its coming from Hanyuu when I thought about it again.)
As for Hanyuu remembering the murder of Rika, it could be something about Takano not doing the deed personally most times. Her goons do it, thus if Hanyuu doesn't recognize the goons as Takano's men, she can't help Rika out (or perhaps she does, but isn't telling Rika...might be way she sounds so pessimistic when Rika thinks she's finally beaten the system after securing Takano's men as "bodyguards".)
Hanyuu (or at least Rika) doesn't know about the Great Disaster at all it seems, since it happens after Rika dies. Could be a case of the viewer getting just a little more information than the people in the game do. Thus allowing us to potentially figure stuff out where as the people in the game won't until a little later (not much later it turns out).
Rika's memories:
The way they explained in the game is, Rika doesn't remember who killed her or how she died because her life was ended abruptly and violently. The metaphor used is, her memories is like a roll of toilet paper. When someone or something suddenly and violently rips the bottom off, it will also rip off the memories that were close to her death. As a result, she never remembers how she dies, except for the times she was tortured by Shion to death in Watanagashi-hen; she chose to commit suicide instead when the same thing was about to happen again in Meakshi-hen.
As for why Hanyuu never tells her these things...it's assumed that either she missed out on the events, or wasn't able to tell her. Missing out on the events is a result of being in all the worlds, as she gets bored of seeing the same thing happen again and again. I mean, who cares if Tomitake dies? He dies all the time anyway.
As to not able to tell Rika things, it's mostly becuase she's a spectator, and she is attracted to things that are intresting. Tomitake dying for the nth time isn't intresting at all, and a spectator watches, not interacts with the game pieces (at least not volunterily). Of course, the serious reason would be that "supernatural elements are allowable for atmospheric or plot reasons, but they must play no part in the actual solution of the mystery" (derived from Knox's 10 commandment of detective fiction).
It was said that Rika doesn't remember much of anything around the time of her death (which is why she decided against anaesthesia when Takano killed in Minagoroshi-hen, to burn it in her mind), and Hanyuu probably hides whenever Rika got killed before that (though this is a pretty big plot hole, as many people on the forums have theorised).
Wasn't it mentioned that Hanyuu and Rika shared sensations and physical influences to a certain extent? Like Hanyuu getting airheaded when Rika got drunk and Hanyuu getting her tongue hot when Rika ate spicy things. It wouldn't be far-fetched to think that if Rika got anesthetized, Hanyuu would get the effects as well and drop asleep. .
Sure? i read the plot of Saikoroshi-hen and i don't see any connection with Bernkastel, i am missing something?
It clarifies things regarding Bernkastel. For example Bernkastel gives herself that name in Saikoroshi-hen.
@bigemperor: for Frederica being there already, remember that we don't know "when" Frederica was born. Remember that each things she does in the past, it is kept as "done", such like telling the future to Akasaka.
In such instance, you can say the "frederica there" is actually the old frederica before the one from Minagoroshi is about to arrive and take "possession" of the current Rika of Matsuribayashi, and at that moment, she loses the memories about that.
I guess that Bernkastel chooses the fragments to create a world and thus picks ones where she has done the things such as warn Akasaka or convince Irie to save Satoko. Though these worlds continue to exist after Rika's death as evidenced by the epilogue of Tsumihoboroshi-hen.
Basically, Frederica leaves the world when she dies, and her consciousness is sent to another hinamizawa, fusing with the current Rika over there.
Doesn't she completely replace the local Rika? That's what I gathered from Saikoroshi-hen, since she can't remember anything from that world. This is also supported by the fact that she can't remember the date when she arrives in Minagoroshi-hen or that Akasaka's wife lived in that world. For all intents and purposes that world's Rika ceases to exist and is replaced by the mind of a hundred-year old witch.
Wasn't it mentioned that Hanyuu and Rika shared sensations and physical influences to a certain extent? Like Hanyuu getting airheaded when Rika got drunk and Hanyuu getting her tongue hot when Rika ate spicy things. It wouldn't be far-fetched to think that if Rika got anesthetized, Hanyuu would get the effects as well and drop asleep. .
That still doesn't explain why Hanyuu doesn't ever follow Tomitake and Takano when they go off to die. Rika would have been able to know the identity of her murderer by the first repeat had Hanyuu done that. Though I suppose asking this is sort of similar to asking why in the Lord of the Rings the good guys don't go to drop the ring in the volcano riding eagles, since the eagles are able to fly up to mount Doom with no difficulty later in the book. There would have been no story if that happened.
Hey I didn't say that my little theory was an all mystery solver :p It only addressed the quoted one.
Wasn't it mentioned that Hanyuu and Rika shared sensations and physical influences to a certain extent? Like Hanyuu getting airheaded when Rika got drunk and Hanyuu getting her tongue hot when Rika ate spicy things. It wouldn't be far-fetched to think that if Rika got anesthetized, Hanyuu would get the effects as well and drop asleep. .
That might be true, but it still doesn't answer why Hanyuu doesn't remember about Takano right away in Matsuribayashi-hen...
That might be true, but it still doesn't answer why Hanyuu doesn't remember about Takano right away in Matsuribayashi-hen...
My guess is that Hanyuu only receives her memories from the previous world of Minagoroshi-hen at that point. Rika says that Hanyuu arrives in a world before her, so I'm guessing that Hanyuu also sends her own memories to other worlds like she does Rika's (since Keiichi hears footsteps just before he dies in Tatarigoroshi-hen years after the disaster, indicating that Hanyuu remains in the worlds where Rika dies). Presumably Hanyuu can send her memories further back than Rika, so despite the fact that her powers have weakened so much that Rika doesn't gain any memories from the world of Minagoroshi-hen, Hanyuu is still able to receive hers.
She's probably having too much fun actually participating in group games and such after all these, what, thousands of years of being just and observer of time.
She's probably having too much fun actually participating in group games and such after all these, what, thousands of years of being just and observer of time.
Considering that the reason she materialized was because of her determination stemming from the previous world to fight, I find that quite unlikely.
And she's only been around for 11 centuries in total.
My guess is that Hanyuu only receives her memories from the previous world of Minagoroshi-hen at that point. Rika says that Hanyuu arrives in a world before her, so I'm guessing that Hanyuu also sends her own memories to other worlds like she does Rika's (since Keiichi hears footsteps just before he dies in Tatarigoroshi-hen years after the disaster, indicating that Hanyuu remains in the worlds where Rika dies). Presumably Hanyuu can send her memories further back than Rika, so despite the fact that her powers have weakened so much that Rika doesn't gain any memories from the world of Minagoroshi-hen, Hanyuu is still able to receive hers.
That still doesn't explain why Hanyuu doesn't remember right away about Takano in Matsuribayashi-hen; Rika's loss of her "near death" memories has already been explained in the game. There has to be something that happened to interruptted her memory of remembering the events of Minagoroshi-hen, ie. materialized into a human form.
That still doesn't explain why Hanyuu doesn't remember right away about Takano in Matsuribayashi-hen; Rika's loss of her "near death" memories has already been explained in the game. There has to be something that happened to interruptted her memory of remembering the events of Minagoroshi-hen, ie. materialized into a human form.
According to my theory, Matsuribayashi-hen starts before Hanyuu's memories arrive from the previous world. If Minagoroshi-hen had started 3 instead of two weeks before the night of the Watanagashi ritual then Rika wouldn't have her previous memories immediately available either.
According to my theory, Matsuribayashi-hen starts before Hanyuu's memories arrive from the previous world. If Minagoroshi-hen had started 3 instead of two weeks before the night of the Watanagashi ritual then Rika wouldn't have her previous memories immediately available either.
Let me see if I understand you correctly: You are saying that Rika only gets her "memories from the previous worlds" 3 weeks before the festival for each "current" world?
That still doesn't explain why Hanyuu doesn't remember right away about Takano in Matsuribayashi-hen; Rika's loss of her "near death" memories has already been explained in the game. There has to be something that happened to interruptted her memory of remembering the events of Minagoroshi-hen, ie. materialized into a human form.
It was mentioned that her god energies were reaching her limit, so it may be possible that it also impeded her access to her meta memories, I'd guess.
Let me see if I understand you correctly: You are saying that Rika only gets her "memories from the previous worlds" 3 weeks before the festival for each "current" world?
No. I was just offering it as an example, since in the world of Minagoroshi-hen Bernkastel's memories replace the local Rika's memories 2 weeks before the Watanagashi ritual. If the Minagoroshi-hen has started 3 weeks before it, then Rika wouldn't have had any memories from Tsumihoboroshi-hen until one week in, just as Hanyuu has no memories of Minagoroshi-hen until a day or so after Matsuribayashi-hen starts.
No. I was just offering it as an example, since in the world of Minagoroshi-hen Bernkastel's memories replace the local Rika's memories 2 weeks before the Watanagashi ritual. If the Minagoroshi-hen has started 3 weeks before it, then Rika wouldn't have had any memories from Tsumihoboroshi-hen until one week in, just as Hanyuu has no memories of Minagoroshi-hen until a day or so after Matsuribayashi-hen starts.
...why is that?
...why is that?
Bernkastel/Dark Rika enters the world of Minagoroshi-hen at the point when Rika falls off that cliff. Presumably Rika wouldn't have had memories from the world of Tsumihoboroshi-hen before then.
That of course is assuming that Bernkastel isn't creating the worlds entirely whole cloth right before going in them. Considering that she assembles the fragments before going into Matsuribayashi-hen that is a possibility, but even that can be sidestepped by assuming that the worlds come into existence retroactively and thus have a past just as they have a future after Rika dies.
Bernkastel/Dark Rika enters the world of Minagoroshi-hen at the point when Rika falls off that cliff. Presumably Rika wouldn't have had memories from the world of Tsumihoboroshi-hen before then.
That of course is assuming that Bernkastel isn't creating the worlds entirely whole cloth right before going in them. Considering that she assembles the fragments before going into Matsuribayashi-hen that is a possibility, but even that can be sidestepped by assuming that the worlds come into existence retroactively and thus have a past just as they have a future after Rika dies.
No, I'm more intrested in your time-disperency that leads to memory loss theory. I don't get your claim of "If the Minagoroshi-hen has started 3 weeks before it, then Rika wouldn't have had any memories from Tsumihoboroshi-hen until one week in" part.
vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.