View Full Version : Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)
The anime ended, and you have a whole bunch of clues at your disposal now:
1. The anime itself
2. The manga (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31733)
3. Frederica Bernkastel's Poems (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31811)
4. The TIPS (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31732)
5. The great Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higurashi)
6. Your Qs Answered (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=36602) thread
7. Putting the Pieces Together Thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=36807) (in progress)
8. And last but not least, the translated game (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=36558) (if they are going to finish or not, of course)
Utilizing what you've learned, please discuss your thoughts and your theories about what really happened.
eris_sama
2006-10-10, 20:23
I'm assuming no spoiler tags are needed since this thread is obviously for people who know, who have seriously thought about it, or who want to be spoiled. I have seen the entire series and read all the above threads. Unfortunately I will never be able to play the game as I know absolutely no Japanese. It seems that not everything is explained in the game but here the main elements as I understand it.
Dam war - Cause a rift in the village with the Sonozaki family on one side and the Houjo family on the other. The latter was ostracized. The Sonozaki family was involved in the kidnapping of the minister's son which forced him to stop the project.
Death of foreman - It seems that who killed the foreman is not that important. All but one culprit was caught. He was probably killed by crazed villagers against the dam, under the influence of the pathogen. The missing culprit was taken by the organization.
Death of Satoko's parents - The fact that it happened on the same day appears to be a coincidence. It happened on their vacation. Satoko appears to be responsible as she hated her stepfather. She may have intentional pushed him over and her mother died trying to save him.
Death of Rika's parents - The fact that it happened on the same day appears to be a coincidence. The priest might have just succumbed to stress because of the festival preparations. The mother appears to be unstable and committed suicide, possibly afraid of being spirited away after her husband's death.
Death of Satoko's aunt, Satoshi goes missing - I believe Satoshi did kill her, but he was taken by the organization.
Death of Tomitake, but not Takano - As soon as I read there was a mastermind, I suspected Takano. A fake death always happen in a mystery and hers seemed the most like since positively identifying a burnt body is difficult and requires dental records.
Dr. Irie, Tomitake and Takano were working for the military. There's something about the villagers they are investigating that has to do with a virus or some pathogen that lives in the villagers. When this pathogen becomes active, the host suffers from delusions, paranoia, increased sensitivity to the spirit world, and finally explodes into violence. The military might have been looking into harnessing this pathogen for biological warfare purposes. They wanted live specimens when the pathogen is active. They may have developed an innoculation against it but I don't think so. I think the hypodermic needles probably contains a sedative, either for the organization to capture a live specimen or in the case of Rika to subdue Shion. Takano fakes her own death to pursue her own ambitions.
Rika is the main carrier of the pathogen. She is immune to its affects and her presence can inhibit the pathogen. Upon her death the villagers may all go insanely violent. That is the excuse for the elimination of the village.
Oyashiro is not a hideous demon but a cute creature who is trying to help Rika live past June. There's not much she can do but reboot the world. She's the one who haunted Keiichi and probably others who sensed her presence under the influence of the pathogen.
Each time the world reboots the same basic events happen but among the group of friends they take turns being the victum or villain. Rika dies each time either killed by Takano or suicide or some other way. She retains some of her memory but not of her death. The worlds continue their course after Rika's death. It seems Oyashiro is trying to find the world that will allow Rika and her friends to live.
sagematt
2006-10-11, 00:35
Dam war - Cause a rift in the village with the Sonozaki family on one side and the Houjo family on the other. The latter was ostracized. The Sonozaki family was involved in the kidnapping of the minister's son which forced him to stop the project.
I remember that a TIP or some other person mentioned that it was just another Sonozaki Bluff™. They were not involved at all.
Death of Satoko's parents - The fact that it happened on the same day appears to be a coincidence. It happened on their vacation. Satoko appears to be responsible as she hated her stepfather. She may have intentional pushed him over and her mother died trying to save him.
I remember someone saying that Satoko has to shot herself everyday with the vaccine, because she once reached L3 and that's why she behaved like a victim everytime. I'm guessing she went L4 or L5 once and pushed her parents... but I really don't know. Maybe Rika does know.
Death of Rika's parents - The fact that it happened on the same day appears to be a coincidence. The priest might have just succumbed to stress because of the festival preparations. The mother appears to be unstable and committed suicide, possibly afraid of being spirited away after her husband's death.
Have you read Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World?
In one of the chapters, he mentions about some studies reflected that, on some small towns, the woman's death rate (by natural causes) went down before the town's festivities, and then raised after that. The town's oldest women were the ones in charge of the festivities, so it's concluded that they postponed their deaths just enough for them to finish their tasks. So I'm ruling out the "succumbed to stress" theory.
Who knows? Maybe The Hinamizawa Syndrome is at fault yet again?
Death of Satoko's aunt, Satoshi goes missing - I believe Satoshi did kill her, but he was taken by the organization.
It's clear that, he either killed her, or he watched the culprit kill her. I'm guessing he killed her, at least that's the most immediate conclusion from what I watched.
Rika is the main carrier of the pathogen. She is immune to its affects and her presence can inhibit the pathogen. Upon her death the villagers may all go insanely violent. That is the excuse for the elimination of the village.
Well, I once thought of Hinamizawa as a hivemind, and Rika as the queen. Do you know what happens when the hive's queen dies? Uh-huh.
MrZombie
2006-10-11, 00:39
I think that the kidnapping of the minster's grandson was the work of Takano's organiztion, so as not to lose their source of research subjects.
Well, I once thought of Hinamizawa as a hivemind, and Rika as the queen. Do you know what happens when the hive's queen dies? Uh-huh.
I once believe in this theory too since it's explictly stated in TIPS and is also the major rationale behind the doings of the "volcanic gas incident" but Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen denied the "hive queen death invockes all village madness" theory as Rika died but after 48 hours the villagers are still sane.
Possible explaination:
1)the vaccine dose (assumed) Rika took during Shion assasination cancelled out the "trigger effect"
2) The "Hive Queen" theory was just a mis-guided theory deduced by Ire's Research Facility (Hey Scientist comes up with wrong theories here and there too)
<-- pesonal preference for the explaination
Well, I once thought of Hinamizawa as a hivemind, and Rika as the queen. Do you know what happens when the hive's queen dies? Uh-huh.
When a hive queen dies, the worker insects create a new queen from one of the existing larvae. In the case of bees, a bee larva is fed royal jelly, which has more nutrients, and so gives the larva the ability to develop into a queen bee.
On a side note, I'd like to point out that Takano is suspicious because when people are of sound mind, she is the only person who has questionable behavior.
Also, if this hasn't been brought up before, notice that the same men in uniform who kidnapped the minister's grandson seem to also be associated with Dr. Irie as seen in Onikakushi-hen.
MrZombie
2006-10-11, 11:15
I once believe in this theory too since it's explictly stated in TIPS and is also the major rationale behind the doings of the "volcanic gas incident" but Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen denied the "hive queen death invockes all village madness" theory as Rika died but after 48 hours the villagers are still sane.
Possible explaination:
1)the vaccine dose (assumed) Rika took during Shion assasination cancelled out the "trigger effect"
2) The "Hive Queen" theory was just a mis-guided theory deduced by Ire's Research Facility (Hey Scientist comes up with wrong theories here and there too)
<-- pesonal preference for the explaination
Except that in Watangashi-hen Rika was not injected with the serum before Shion tortured her to death,
eris_sama
2006-10-11, 12:01
I think the hive mind and all the villagers going insane was an excuse to destroy the villagers or rather the pathogen and the evidence of experiments. Maybe the organization deemed the project was a failure and they couldn't harness its power or they already achieved what they set out to do.
Paranoia833
2006-10-11, 14:23
I think the hive mind and all the villagers going insane was an excuse to destroy the villagers or rather the pathogen and the evidence of experiments. Maybe the organization deemed the project was a failure and they couldn't harness its power or they already achieved what they set out to do.
I think I've puzzled out the motive, and if I'm right it's not what I expected. Originally I thought the same as you did, but after reading the QnA thread I noticed KJ's comments on the mastermind (Takano's) motive:
Basically judging by what was said there, the 'queen' thing is just a flimsy justification and Takano pretty much wants to exterminate the village for entirely personal reasons, and came up with the queen theory so that she could persuade the military guys to go along with it.
The 'become god' thing in the TIPs was obviously adressed either to her or a descendant of hers, presumably from the original Dr Takano Irie talks about. Judging from that I'm guessing that Takano has some personal grudge against Hinamizawa in general, possibly because of Dr Takano's disgrace, and wants to take the entire village out.
My guess is Takano managed to convince her superiors that wiping out Hinamizawa was necessary, at which point Tomitake and later Irie turned traitor and intended to go public with what they were doing. Hence they were killed off by the other three men in green/grey and Takano. (Which would imply that the decision to kill off Rika was taken at least a few days in advance of the killing, rather than being something Takano did alone and then used as an excuse to get the military to wipe Hinamizawa off the map, unless Tomitake had stumbled upon Takano's plan by accident and then been pinned by her as a traitor or something)
That said there's one flaw in my little theory I can see right away. If Takano really did intend to 'become a god' in the manner the original Dr. Takano described, why get herself killed in the gas disaster in such a way that nobody would find out the truth? I mean from the way the Faded Notebook was worded she wanted something that would get her accomplishments known, but she'd have to know something as big as the Hinamizawa disaster would get covered up. Unless something went wrong after Rika's death it seems nobody ever found out about Takano's involvement in the disaster beyond being one of the early victims, something which will get her name in the papers for maybe a year or two before fading into obscurity along with every other serial killing in history. Guess I've still got some more theorising to do.
That said there's one flaw in my little theory I can see right away. If Takano really did intend to 'become a god' in the manner the original Dr. Takano described, why get herself killed in the gas disaster in such a way that nobody would find out the truth? I mean from the way the Faded Notebook was worded she wanted something that would get her accomplishments known, but she'd have to know something as big as the Hinamizawa disaster would get covered up. Unless something went wrong after Rika's death it seems nobody ever found out about Takano's involvement in the disaster beyond being one of the early victims, something which will get her name in the papers for maybe a year or two before fading into obscurity along with every other serial killing in history. Guess I've still got some more theorising to do.
Quote from the tips sections of Dr Takano's note http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=690232&postcount=134
"I don't care which field you go into. But leave your name for the world to remember. If you cannot achieve this, leave a great accomplishment and result for the world.
Being a human, death will come for you as well. Being a human, a time will come where your body will be cremated into ash. It is fate that the body will turn into ash.
But if you will be able to leave behind a huge accomplishment, your name will continue to live on long after you turn into ash.
People call those whose continue to live without their body as gods.
Your grandfather wanted to become like that, but wasn't able to.
I want you to become a god."
Well at least the gas incident has a huge impact on the Japan society till today (read the manga of higurashi)
aliensporebomb
2006-10-13, 14:50
Well, I once thought of Hinamizawa as a hivemind, and Rika as the queen. Do you know what happens when the hive's queen dies? Uh-huh.
Makes massive sense especially in light of multiple occurrences of a
someone from town being attacked by outsiders suddenly finding
themselves beset by angry townspeople materializing out of
nowhere or assembled very quickly, faster than you could
possibly organize.
Great supposition! I've thought similar things. However, it
does seem a bit simplistic. It's pretty obvious Takano is one
of several villains.
David Johnston
2006-10-21, 23:25
I would surmise that Takano intended to become a "god" by eating Rika who is, by Takano's estimation, the host for the true Oyashiro-sama. Takano believed that the adoration that Rika gets from being the center of that invisible communications web the infectees seem to have would got to her once she watanagashi'd Rika. She'd become their ruler, and perhaps the ruler of much more. The disease is apparently not very contagious after all. It hasn't been spreading beyond village bounds much even with members of the families now living in Tokyo proper, and Oishi shows no signs of infection despite all the hanging around he's been doing over the last few years. I surmise that it's perhaps one of those things that can be passed through the placental barrier (so that that children are infected in the womb) but otherwise is only contagious if you eat someone or something that is already infected.
K1 however, becomes infected by an injection, apparently. I'm not sure how Takano made it look to him like it was the girls injecting him or how she convinced the girls to inject him, but in order to make a vaccine you have to be able to culture the organism. So, what if Takano makes herself Rika's successor, and then, say, introduces the organism into a vaccination program in Tokyo? Eliminating the townsfolk assuages the government's fears so they'll never see Takano coming.
Except that in Watangashi-hen Rika was not injected with the serum before Shion tortured her to death,
Really? I thought that everything was the same: Rika's try to cure Shion (Mion :eyespin: ), her failure, injection. And only then Rika desides to commit suicide, rather than been tortured by Shion.
So, you are sure that in the game there was no injection in Watanagashi-hen, aren't you?
I'm not sure how Takano made it look to him like it was the girls injecting him or how she convinced the girls to inject him
Well, it seems that K1 was injected at the beginning of Onikakushi-hen when he went to Dr. Irie's clinic, as he had flu or something (we can see it in Watanagashi-hen manga). I think, the weren't going to kill him, just to investigate the virus.
I would surmise that Takano intended to become a "god" by eating Rika who is, by Takano's estimation, the host for the true Oyashiro-sama.
But why should Rike been killed in such way (watanagashied)?
--------------------------------
I'm still questioned with these: what are the government and desease relations?
Versions:
1) It is their biological weapon.
I don't think so. If it is so then neither Takano-Erie-Timitake nor guys who had sent them to Hinamizawa (and if they are not the "government", who is?) know about that. So, imho, it's not like these.
2) It is nature syndrom which they want to investigate.
That's my opinion. First, this is how it looks like in Matsuribayashi-hen (since it's the #8 story, there shouldn't be any "wrong theories" which fool us). Second, when Dr. Takano told them about deseas they hadn't taken it seriously as they did when his granddaughter showed them that notes. If this virus is their bioweapon they woulndn't change their opinion on them.
--------------------------------
About "queen carrier".
If this theory is a fake then nothing happens with people neihter in 1-3-6-7 arks nor in 2-5 arks. The question is: why did they sprayed gas in 1-3-6-7 and didn't do it in 2-5? Since i think government wasn't controlled by Takano and she couldn't deside either to spry it or not, it seems that the "queen carrier" theory isn't a fake.
Klashikari
2006-10-22, 07:04
If this theory is a fake then nothing happens with people neihter in 1-3-6-7 arks nor in 2-5 arks. The question is: why did they sprayed gas in 1-3-6-7 and didn't do it in 2-5? Since i think government wasn't controlled by Takano and she couldn't deside either to spry it or not, it seems that the "queen carrier" theory isn't a fake.
hint : compare how rika died when the disaster occured or not.
hint : compare how rika died when the disaster occured or not.
Yes, but the government doesn't interested in the way Rika dies. If it doesn't cause the "madding" of hte whole village they wouldn't spread the gas.
And they didn't. That means watanagased Rika causes "madding", but killed in another way doesn't. And how can it be? I think, there was no madding in 2-5 'cause Rika was cured with Shion's injection.
But MrZombie says there wasn't such a thing in #2.
Klashikari
2006-10-22, 07:18
think a bit about the all "oyashiro-sama curse" belief in hinamizawa.
how would the villagers react when they would discover furede rika, the oyashiro priestess, completely desembowled like others "hinamizawa sinners/betrayers" ?
results : fear, disorder, panic, etc.
their almighty god sent its wrath towards its mortal represent, which is, obviously a "ultimate bad omen".
just like keiichi, shion, satoko and rena, the villagers would probably go to some killing frenzy due their rising paranoia
how would the villagers react when they would discover furede rika, the oyashiro priestess, completely desembowled like others "hinamizawa sinners/betrayers" ?
results : fear, disorder, panic, etc.
their almighty god sent its wrath towards its mortal represent, which is, obviously a "ultimate bad omen".
just like keiichi, shion, satoko and rena, the villagers would probably go to some killing frenzy due their rising paranoia
But they don't care if Rika is killed by Shion?
Well, i have no objections on this theory - it can be true.
But i still think that "queen carrier" theory is not a fake since i have no confirmation (except for MrZombie's opinion) there wasn't any injection in #2.
niwasatou
2006-10-22, 07:46
My theory so far.
Takano wants to wipe out Hinamizawa because of personal grudges.
Since she obviously can't do that on her own, she makes up the whole "Queen Carrier" theory, with which she convinces her "superiors" (the Yamainu Organization?) that Hinamizawa, especially Rika, has to be kept an eye on. She puts through the emergency plan: Hinamizawa Gas Disaster™.
So, Rika is killed by Takano, who has "prepared" one resident to go crazy with her Scrapbooks.
Somewhere inbetween, she kills Tomitake and fakes her death?
Thus the Yamainu "panick" and the emergency plan is carried out.
The residents are lead into the mountains and gassed to death there (which explains K1's surviving).
Plan accomplished?!
(Now, in Matsuribayashi.. fake death.. happy ending.. well, spoil yourself etc. :).)
Klashikari
2006-10-22, 07:49
it's not like they don't care, but the impact is highly different.
whatever the villagers think it was shion or mion who killed rika, they would assume she go nuts or anything (not oyashiro related)
but somehow, the impact of the ritual killing will push them to some fear of an apocalypse.
that theory aside, the facts are 2 arcs didn't get the disaster show that the fact rika was watanagashi-ed will permit takano to get some ugly justification for wiping hinamizawa.
the queen theory is however solid, especially it was in Dr takano mind. (though he wasn't taken seriously, as stated in Yagouchi's Quarry (Piece #10) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=696384&postcount=10) )
the major hole come from meakashi hen :/
takano to get some ugly justification for wiping hinamizawa.
First of all, does Takano really wants to wipe Hinamizawa because of personal grudges?
As we know, she does all of these to become a "god"? How the Hinamizawa wiping will make her "god"?
And with the "Queen Carrier Theory" we get this: she want's to get that "queen" virus somehow from Rika. Then she'll become (as she thinks) the "reincarnation of oyashiro-sama" herself. In other word she thinks she will become a "god".
------------------------------
And what organizations do we have?
What is SDF and what is the "Yamainu Organization"?
Klashikari
2006-10-22, 08:50
1) yes, she wanted to prove her grandfather's genius. he was completely ridiculised. see the piece i linked above, especially this part :
Nobody criticized grandfather's article by calling it ridiculous, or tried to rejected it.
......Today, among the files that they're reading, ......also contained the articles that were insulted by those big-shot authorities who left behind their footprints after stepping on them and grandfather's heart on that day.
And yet, nobody here is ridiculing these articles... everyone's carefully holding and reading the things that were once kicked away by others.
At one glance, it's nothing big at all, but...... This is also the moment where grandfather's research is being recongnized for the first time....
I picked up the files that were left behind by grandfather, and looked at these people who continued to discuss among themselves while pointing to and raising these papers now and then, and I could feel my chest becoming fulfilled.
......Ahh, I have worked so hard for this day....
Grandpa in heaven, ......can you see, the scenary here...?
she is greatly devoted to her grandfather, and want him to be proud of her, despite he is dead.
as a big crazy "nurse", she carried his final wish : become a god.
rather being sucessful in any "positive humanity way", she somewhat want to avenge Dr Takano, along fulfilling his wish.
not only they (government) will have to admit her research, but also the "deserved" respect to Dr Takano. (this is her motive, nothing else. what happen to hinamizawa is her least worry, except the whole carnage)
she doesn't believe in oyashiro sama at all. granted, she use the local myth in her advantage in fact. the "god" mention is somewhat to prove that late takano and herself are superior (theory wise)
2) this is not clear for the moment. the factual "organizations" are :
-the 3 main houses (Sonozaki - Furude - Kimiyoshi)
-irie institute (part of the government cover)
-yamainu (takano henchmen, part of the goverment reinforcement)
(since i didn't play the games, the following information isn't accurate at all, be careful)
yamainu are trained henchman from the government, allocated to help takano crew to fulfill their research and investigations.
they are the geen/blue/grey men who were roaming around. (example : those who captured keiichi in onikakushi hen)
1)
she doesn't believe in oyashiro sama at all
Sure. But she do know about "queen" virus influence.
I agree with David Johnston:
Takano believed that the adoration that Rika gets from being the center of that invisible communications web the infectees seem to have would got to her once she watanagashi'd Rika.
2) Ok, but what is the SDF?
3)
rather being sucessful in any "positive humanity way", she somewhat want to avenge Dr Takano, along fulfilling his wish.
not only they (government) will have to admit her research, but also the "deserved" respect to Dr Takano. (this is her motive, nothing else. what happen to hinamizawa is her least worry, except the whole carnage)
So, you mean she killed Rika not for getting the "queen" virus, but only for proving her granddad's theory (so, it was a kind of experiment)? And "becomming god" is only an allegory?
Klashikari
2006-10-22, 11:38
this is somewhat a major spoiler, but this thread is here for that :
this is correct.
like i said, takano's main purpose is to glorify her grandfather and herself.
she just doesn't give any damn thing about the hinamizawa syndrome, the people or her faction. at all.
several facts prove it :
1) she is really excited about any sign of congratulation from her superiors (i.e her "second" grandpa, Koizumi : Routine Audit (Piece #19) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=703785&postcount=16) )
2) she prepared the dreadful disaster plan.
3) if you pay attention to the role of the group, irie, tomitake and takano have the duty to determine what is really the hinamizawa syndrome and how to cure it.
so here is the question : how can they let the "queen" die like that? how can a random culprit kill rika, while the governement trained soldiers are supposed to protect her? in fact, aren't they the real culprit as mentionned several times? you know what i meant :p
4) dispite takano's comedy, tomitake discovered her real intentions, that's why he gets killed.
her whole mental state is kinda screwed, but she has a strong will (if you read the minagoroshi prologue, you will understand what i said with the "rules X, Y, Z" ).
in fact, i suspect that takano brought the whole "queen theory" to irie and the others to justify any "big mess if furude rika is killed". i'm pretty sure the queen theory is messed up just because of watanagashi-hen.
i'm just wondering one thing : the TIPS aren't mentionning anything about a huge mess / killing frenzy around hinamizawa in watanagashi-hen / meakashi-hen dispite rika's death. and as i could read with irie theory, "all the infected populace will yield into the terminal stages within 48 hours of the main carrier's death."
this proves that the "queen theory" is kinda a big excuse, since there wasn't any mass L5 state after watanagashi and meakashi hen (this event couldn't be ignored as a TIPS if it has really happened, like the disaster was described to have happened after tsumihoroboshi-hen))
my guess : wouldn't be possible that takano couldn't activate her emergency plan in Watanagashi/meakashi because she couldn't find rika under the 48 hours? (if they aren't able to put the village under a possible mental disorder under the 48 hours, there is no "valid excuse" for takano, so no disaster :p)
if she can't find rika (or her corpse) within the 48 hours, this will make the queen theory null and void.
As this is spoiler thread...
3) if you pay attention to the role of the group, irie, tomitake and takano have the duty to determine what is really the hinamizawa syndrome and how to cure it.
so here is the question : how can they let the "queen" die like that? how can a random culprit kill rika, while the governement trained soldiers are supposed to protect her? in fact, aren't they the real culprit as mentionned several times?
IMHO."They" aren't but "she" is. There are 3 agents in Hinamizawa: Takano, Tomotake, Irie. And green guys who obey Takano. Government sent them to investigate the syndrom. But Takano has her own aims. Not only to glorify herself and her granddad but also to become a "god". She kills Tomitake and Irie. Now nobody can control her. And then she watanagashi Rika.
in fact, i suspect that takano brought the whole "queen theory" to irie and the others to justify any "big mess if furude rika is killed".
But it's not her theory but her grandfather's. And it seems she trust all his conclusions.
i'm just wondering one thing : the TIPS aren't mentionning anything about a huge mess / killing frenzy around hinamizawa in watanagashi-hen / meakashi-hen dispite rika's death. and as i could read with irie theory, "all the infected populace will yield into the terminal stages within 48 hours of the main carrier's death."
this proves that the "queen theory" is kinda a big excuse, since there wasn't any mass L5 state after watanagashi and meakashi hen (this event couldn't be ignored as a TIPS if it has really happened, like the disaster was described to have happened after tsumihoroboshi-hen))
Yes, we do know there was no Great Hinamizawa Disaster in Watanagashi-hen / Meakashi-hen.
wouldn't be possible that takano couldn't activate her emergency plan in Watanagashi/meakashi because she couldn't find rika under the 48 hours?
But they had found her on the next day (and as she was killed at night that was even lass than in 24 hours).
Klashikari
2006-10-22, 13:55
IMHO."They" aren't but "she" is. There are 3 agents in Hinamizawa: Takano, Tomotake, Irie. And green guys who obey Takano. Government sent them to investigate the syndrom. But Takano has her own aims. Not only to glorify herself and her granddad but also to become a "god". She kills Tomitake and Irie. Now nobody can control her. And then she watanagashi Rika.
yup, that's the answer. (the question was made on pruprose, indeed). when i was talking about "they", i was referring to "soldiers" in fact :heh: (there is absolutely no way that tomitake and irie would agree to kill rika for that sinister plan)
but, we should notice that theses guys (yamainu?) where under irie's command for keiichi's case in onikakushi-hen (that's why i guess that the 3 of them were working together, with some covered institution and an elite military force, the yamainu)
takano must have taken the control when she killed tomitake and faked her own death (she is most likely unskilled to do this alone. she needed some help to plan her death like this)
also, sounds like she killed irie only when he discovered something (as far i can remember, irie died only at tataragoroshi-hen, with a fake suicide)
But it's not her theory but her grandfather's. And it seems she trust all his conclusions.yup i messed this part. this is where her "madness" lies :heh:
But they had found her on the next day (and as she was killed at night that was even lass than in 24 hours).i was completely forgetting about the whole "rescue part" on watanagashi and meakashi, my bad -_-
that said, there should be something which prevent her to perform some "L5 village disorder" excuse in theses scenario. i can only see the "watanagashi-ed" factor, otherwise, i wonder what.
David Johnston
2006-10-22, 15:57
1)
Sure. But she do know about "queen" virus influence.
Assuming there is any such queen virus...which I doubt. Although observationally, infectees can communicate nonverbally and the viroid will take over their cognitive facilities when they perceive a threat to the host or the community leading to the "taken by oni" phenomenon, there's no real evidence that the villagers love Rika because she's host to a particularly privileged strain of the viroid, instead of because she's Rika, which is surely enough reason to love her. And Takano's totally oblivious to the reality of Rika's spiritually privileged position in the village, that she is actually in communication with and is protected, however poorly, by a genuine spiritual entity, so her theories have a gigantic, totally-unaccounted-for variable in them.
Of course when interpreting Takano's actions, it doesn't matter whether she's right or just barking mad. Takano thinks there's a queen strain, and will act based on that idea.
As for why watanagashi, well she did bring up the subject of vivisecting one of the villagers to study the organism to the doctor. He wasn't especially welcoming. Watanagashi is vivisection. So she takes Tomitake in to look at the watanagashi tools, lets him make his report and then kills him. The villagers will be blamed by the government, who will fake her death to protect her from them. That eliminates both Tomitake and Oishi who won't suspect a dead woman. Then when she vivisects Rika in a way traditional to the village...well the government will just get more confirmation that the village is in a state of meltdown and needs to be eliminated.
Klashikari
2006-10-23, 00:15
back to my theory, i watched the episode 7-8 again, and it seems there is a possibility that several days have passed before the police could find the corpses.
first, 1 whole day has passed after rika death : in fact, the next day rika died, keiichi had the little chat with ooishi (who discovered that "shion" was missing and it was impossible to "shion" to talk with the village chief, except if she was the culprit), and had the final discussion with "shion" on the phone (the story shows he got the talk at night)
then, it seems that keiichi spent at least 1 whole day to recover + to pack up his stuff (he told to rena that he was moving away, and everything was ready according the packages).
this means that more than 24-48 hours have passed (rika died 2 days before, at night). so, you can add 24 hours again after the shion stab assault at the same day (if keiichi spent really 1 whole day for the previous event).
this would mean that more than 48 have passed
Day 0 : Rika is killed
Day 1 : Keiichi talks with Ooishi, and discovered that "shion" was missing, and "shion" couldn't be able to confess to the village chief, except if she talks to him AFTER he was missing. at night, he received "shion" phone call.
Day 2 : keiichi and rena disovered the "soy sauce" circular, which lead them to sonozaki household. Then they are contacted by ooishi. Keiichi accepts to be the "bait". Keiichi and Rena confront Mion. Keiichi is about to be tortured but is rescued by rena and the police, while "mion" escaped.
Day 2/3 or X: After the rescue, during the same afternoon (i doubt it) or the next day morning/after noon, Keiichi told to rena that he will be moving away. at night, Keiichi has been stabbed by oni "Mion"
Day Y (at least, day 3) : Ooishi tell to Keiichi that Mion was in the well in the day they barged in, and shion died during the same night while he was attacked by "mion".note that, i also don't really think keiichi is a "superhuman", recovering from the stab like this within few hours. (considering the fact that it should take some time to be discovered by anyone, taken to the hospital, then talk to the police, THEN some talk with ooshi.)
so, whatever if keiichi took 1 day to recover from the sonozaki incident, it is clear that more than 2 days have passed from rika's death, which prevents takano to activate her disaster plan, since the queen theory has been demolished by the time limit.
(I'm not even going to ask how Rika manages to survive at Matsuribashihen since I doubt someone will actually reply, but if there is a kind soul out there that can ease my anciety on this title please do, even if it's on PM, because I'm dying to know how she manages to survive and other questions but nobody that played the game seams to be willing to answer, and hell I'm not going to buy the game and take 2 years to learn Japanese ... by than I will already have scratched my neck to death in antecipation ><;)
It's a miracle. :heh:
...It's true though.
What makes me mad about Higurashi is not the game, the manga nor the anime, but how people who know the answers for all of these questions will play "we know it, you don't" and don't help at all.
I'm sorry it appeared that way to you. I don't know about kj or the others, but personally, I don't really know how to answer some of the questions myself. It may look like a simple question to you, but it certainly isn't simple to answer them. Some of them took whole chapters to explain and reveal, and to just say "______ happened" probably wouldn't mean much.
In any case, your question about Satoshi WILL be answered in the Matsuribayashi puzzle pieces thread (we're only at the 2nd year victims here, the pieces will cover all the way until current time (June 1983)). The problem is, as you probably noticed, these are really long entries. kj is tired right now, and I certainly don't have time to work on them everyday.
I will admit though, that the pieces are really nothing more than just "the truth behind the history of everything". Without Minagoroshi/Matsuribayashi-hen's scenario, there won't be any real "solutions" concerning Rika and her friends' effort to fight against the fate of June 1983.
Finally, we clearly see that Rika knew about everything on the secret research and even though she is young, after living so many times her life over and over it would be about time she realised who killed her. I mean, excluding the suicide and Shion torture scenarios, she knows she is going to be killed on that given day, it takes only a couple of "resets" to realise who you can trust and who you can't, and than a couple more resets to come up with a trap to prevent your death. Over 100 rebirths is really an exageration IMHO.
In my 3rd or 4th rebirth I would already go straigth to Oishi and go all "Nostradamus" to him, by summer 1983 he would believe me and set his team to tag Rika 24-7 ¬¬ if it failed, than you can add Oishi to suspects list and try the same with other characters until the trap worked. 15~20 resets tops to get to happy ending solution. =p
Well... everytime Rika resets, memories of the few hours leading up to her death is erased, so she never remembers who killed her, and whether her efforts had any effect or not. There's also the issue of the "mental wear" that happens whenever her hopes were betrayed.
In any case, it's a lot more complicated than that. I can only hope the guys over at the translation project can manage to complete their work. After all, Matsuribayashi-hen had so many exciting scenes (Shion/Kasai team in a firefight with their AK-47, for example :heh: ), it'll be a waste for fans like you guys to miss out on them.
What makes me mad about Higurashi is not the game, the manga nor the anime, but how people who know the answers for all of these questions will play "we know it, you don't" and don't help at all.
Or, I could just say screw it, I'm deleting everything. One more whine like this, I will purge everything into oblivion. Be grateful for what you have - if it weren't for us, you guys will be stuck scratching your heads in saying "why the heck are the kids alive again in Ep. 5?"
If you must know, there is a reason why we can't say it...because the game itself is so fucking hard to explain without writing a ten page essay for your answers!!! And why the heck should we have to write ten pages of explanation when we have to do the pieces thread? If writing ten pages just to satisfy one, we might as well write ten pages of useful info for all, which'll explain the stuff anyway.
If you are dying to know, the English patch is out (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=36558). Play the game.
imac2much
2006-10-24, 10:48
Geez, Caiobrz, are you really this immature? Kj1980, Sushi-Y, and LostBlue have spent over 100 hours (probably much more) helping people on this board... translating TIPs, posting in episode threads, Q&A threads, etc. Considering all this, how exactly are they "not the least interested in helping people solve the puzzles of Higurashi"?
With your posts, it's pretty easy to deduce that you either 1) didn't do your research and are just throwing false accusations, or 2) have all the aforementioned evidence but are just too ignorant and selfish to realize the hypocrisy and ungratefulness of your words. If it's the latter, most likely, replying to you directly is pointless, if you truly are this ignorant.
In that case, I ask kj1980, Sushi-Y and LostBlue to ignore this ingrate. Please don't let his words and actions speak for everyone else, or ruin it for everyone else. I'm sure everyone else who browse these forums realize the work you guys are doing and are grateful. Just ignore, mod, or delete these whining posts please.
Klashikari
2006-10-24, 12:26
err... i will put my answer about the "argument" in spoiler, saving some space and brain ~~
Ohhh hohohoho that was nice I came to ask a few questions on the forum and participate on the thread and my post get deleted as "whine". Not to mention, my post was the first one to get a moderator and the translators here.
How old are you, 14?
You are not the least interested in helping people solve the puzzles of Higurashi, you just want to feel superior because you know it. Guess what sherlock, here are lots of other people who played the game, as much as you people like to cover and hide the information to keep the feeling you are superior, in time that it will be all in vain.
i guess the part which annoyed a lot KJ was especially this one (thanks to Sushi-Y, having quoted it)
What makes me mad about Higurashi is not the game, the manga nor the anime, but how people who know the answers for all of these questions will play "we know it, you don't" and don't help at all.
just like Sushi-Y and KJ1980 said, the whole mystery of the story is based on facts and theories which are getting : corrected, confirmed, denied, etc etc according the chapters, TIPS, etc.
which means : you don't have raw answers like this. the main point of this thread and the others is to permit people to find the answers just like the gamers have to do : experimentations, little brainstorming/guess etc.
there is nothing to be proud of "knowing everything, you don't" since, they are aware they can play the game, and not us (for various reasons). you must understand that asking answers like this is like "i want that, and i want NOW".
this is the issue : translators worked like crazy to give us a compromise between "game emulation" and "raw answers".
you are grateful, that's nice, but this won't really help your request, which was already refused a numerous times in this forum.
so please, reconsider your words, especially "people who play "we know, you don't" and don't help at all". their work simply help, nothing else.
10 pages of explanation? in the Q&A closed thread there is already enough info. If that was filled with double the amound of answers, it would satisfy most of people. And no, I'm not going the play the game, because as far as I know, the Minagoroshihen and Matsuribashihen are not patched yet anyway.who knows? *shrug*.
if they say this, this should be probably true. most of the questions in the Q&A were based on "blurry" facts which were possible to answer easely. there are also some weird factors which can only be answered though the game, since they aren't given like this, until Matsuribayashi-hen and its piece.
But ... sorry, I overstep my boundaries here, it's clear that people who play HnNKn get Hinamizawa syncrome and go L5 lol ...
Grow up people, we just want to know what happens in the plot, this over-protection is so childish that makes me laugh like L5 terminal patients >Dyou should probably pay attention about what people say : they are simply pissed of a redundant "i want answer" situation.
granted, as you can see, there is a patch on work, AND there is the "putting the piece together" thread.
flamming like that won't give you any cedit, ever.
i understand your curiosity and you urge and annoyed patient about HnNKN mysteries, but you are just putting the contributors under pression and rather annoying chats for nothing. please understand, whatever you are thankful or not, respect their stance of replying (that's why i don't think calling you "ingrate" is wise. but i would say you are simply crossing the line badly.)
If you had read the post that KJ deleted, I actually thanked for their work on the pieces and tips, and added that even with them fully translated some questions would still not be fully visible without a clear answer for someone who experienced the game.
that's why they are translating the "putting the piece together". do you really think that every player could have every answer before matsuribayashi ? hell no. that's why they are simply working chronologically and putting the tips first, then the pieces.
Secondly, you are not aware of the fact that I asked for help for them in PM, with all due respect and education, and was given some assistance until I asked questions that were not on the anime and for that I got shut down.i assume that theses questions were either answerable with the TIPS on the forum, or simply on the way being answered with pieces.
I never said a word about being ingrate about the whole translation, you are jumping to dumb conclusions yourself. Also, in case you didn't notice, not all mysteries of HnNKn can be answered with all that, and it's only natural to ask, except that if you ask, you are bashed, mistreated and told to shut up. You say I'm imature for disliking being treated like that? go ahead.i think that imac2much didn't like you previous flame, and accordingly taking it as ingratitude.
once again, if you are really wondering something, think a bit of it with theories etc like you wanted to do. depending of the type of question, some just need some guess, other need plain answer from matsuribayashi, which are ON THE WAY. stay cool, and wait, that's all.
The post in this thread that was deleted had one line of rant and than several comments, theories and questions just as anybody else, and yet it was deleted. You think that me getting mad for that is imagure? go ahead.i don't want to judge, but seriously, you are just saying that you don't care about what people think, and that won't help you at all. if people are reacting like this, ask yourself why before retaliate ridiculously.
again, if you thought the KJ'1980 decision was not appropriate, follow the rules and talk to him privately. you are simply playing a vendetta and you won't really be listened. in fact, you are simply digging way deeper and get probably bashed, not for the original fault, but you simply your feedback about the decision.
I'm used for arrogant moderators, and it's not some spoiled brat who stuck up just for the sake of image that will make anything better. Also, this is beyound the thread scope so I guess we should drop. Besides, I'm not going to ask anything else about HnNKn in here, since I'm sure I won't get answers not be treated nice.
Looks like this is a Sonozaki forum and I'm a Houjou =pif we should drop, and it was beyond the thread scope... why didn't you simply conclude the whole thing in private, instead of getting back on the thread, and flaming gladely because of the delete? oO
this is simply non sense -_-.
i'm not really loving your analogy... i would say you are just retaliating a "pissed decision" with a "more pissed / flaming" behaviour, which won't help.
anyway, discrepancies? which one? (i guess it's not solid enough, i wonder)
imac2much
2006-10-24, 12:30
If you had read the post that KJ deleted, I actually thanked for their work on the pieces and tips, and added that even with them fully translated some questions would still not be fully visible without a clear answer for someone who experienced the game.
If you thank someone in one place, then call them a 14 year old person who does has no intention to help people in another... it doesn't make it "okay." In case you have selective memory, I'll quote your own words:
What makes me mad about Higurashi is not the game, the manga nor the anime, but how people who know the answers for all of these questions will play "we know it, you don't" and don't help at all.
How old are you, 14?
You are not the least interested in helping people solve the puzzles of Higurashi, you just want to feel superior because you know it. Guess what sherlock, here are lots of other people who played the game, as much as you people like to cover and hide the information to keep the feeling you are superior, in time that it will be all in vain.
So what that you thanked them somewhere? If I told you I thank you for posting, then flame you for being an ingrate (which I did), are you going to forget about what I said about you, and just sit dumb and happy that I thanked you, regardless of whatever else I said? Don't be silly. You thanked them and used them while it was of your own benefit, but then when you didn't get exactly what you wanted, you started flinging names and act ungrateful.
I never said a word about being ingrate about the whole translation, you are jumping to dumb conclusions yourself.
Actually, you did. Read your quotes above... you accuse them of being "not the least interested in helping people solve the puzzles of Higurashi"... you obviously don't appreciate the work they've done up until now if you can make such an accusation.
Besides the lack of consideration that there are people who CANNOT play the game is amazing. Easy for you to say "buy the game and put the patch", well, I can't, why? my problem. I'm not rich you know. Lest let not forget we are at a fansub-piracy BT forum
Piracy will never be 'justified', no matter how rich or poor you are. Sure, it will still exist, but it never makes it alright. If you did enough research, you'd realize that a translation for both Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi are in the works (and some patches already released), which is why kj and company don't spoil everything. The leaders of the t/l projects actually asked them not to spoil everything for people who want the proper experience of playing the game.
Don't try to use the excuse of "I'm just poor, please feel sorry for me, hand everything to me." This is a forum for dicussing matters related to Higurashi, not a piracy-bittorrent forum. Are many items of note acquired through torrents or piracy? Probably, but that doesn't make it justified. Besides, I don't even understand how this excuse is pertinent, since being poor doesn't prevent you from playing the game and patch. Sounds like you're just whining again.
Keep posting if you want, you're just making yourself look all the more foolish.
aliensporebomb
2006-10-24, 13:44
The other issue is that some people don't have the proper equipment to
play the game but that is neither here nor there - cost aside there are
some minimum hardware requirements for any game these days.
That being said: I've found out more about what I don't know about
this story just by reading these threads than anything else. It's too
bad that people can't be patient and wait. I suspect the people nice
enough to key in all of that data have lives and other things to do
besides keying in text all day? So I give my thanks to those who take
the time to do it.
And I get the idea that the 7th Expension team has been working on
this for at least a decade, the depth in this story is almost absurd for
what is ultimately an animated cartoon.
Prediction: once it catches on in the U.S. it will be licensed and
everyone will know about it. It just needs that "catch". I suspect
it will be absurdly popular too. I feel like we're members of a weird
little club who know about it before that tidal wave of interest.
But getting back to the idea that:
Takano thinks that by devouring Rika's innards (after she is ritualistically
killed) she can become a God herself is the best theory yet.
Phew. Takano, you took your grandfather too literally. Get a grip.
She has the motive, she has the means and if you think the townspeople
would be realistic about it, Himimizawa is a microcosm:
Think about the reaction if someone found the pope in rome killed that
way Rika was - the reaction would be immediate and utterly devastating.
So no wonder they had a "doomsday plan" put together if the town
went critical. Unethical but I understand the thinking behind it.
I'm not saying this story an allegory by any means but think of a well
loved religious leader, them have them slaughtered horribly and watch
the reaction of the followers. Rika has that level of love from the town
so Takano reaps what she sows apparently.
The whole "nuke the site from orbit" approach from the government
suggests they're worried about the double-edged sword capability of
this syndrome. I'm still not completely certain that it gets to that level:
yes, Keiichi and some others went nuts clawing their throats out but
ultimately what set it off was some kind of uber-emotional reaction to
something they witnessed in a particular way. There didn't appear to
be any way to control it - which is why the black ops group behind it
all may have just decided to pull out and be done with it.
However, not knowing anything about how it ends as I've not had
the opportunity to read all of the Matsurabayashi-ken pieces, I get
the feeling that the universe is going to do the "royal double smite"
on Takano for doing such a thing, or the payback will be rather intense.
It's too bad she took her grandfathers' words literally. I can see the
governments black ops people salivating with delight with the idea of
a parasite or microbe that could turn a desired population into ultra-
violent fighters but it's a two edged sword and their unethical methods
are going to be their undoing. Again and again as it happens.
One other thing:
It would be cool to see if our friend Hanyuu has something to say
about it as well. At the end.
1)2) Ok, but what is the SDF?
The SDF is an abbreviation of the Japan Self Defense Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces)
Due to the way the Constitution was written after WWII, Japan is not allowed to have any military forces persay. On the other hand, the US did not want to totally demilitarize Japan for the sake of nearby Communist influences (China, North Korea, and the Soviet Union). Hence, Japan "re-militarized" itself with "self-defense forces." Despite being a "self-defense force" its government expenditures (usually around 1% of the budget) makes it the sixth largest and most modern "military" force after the US, China, Russia, UK and France.
Although the SDF have been recently deployed to helping UN peacekeeping missions, their primary objective is to help out Japanese civilians during disasters (earthquakes, terrorism, etc. etc.) as well as defending ourselves from a nuclear threat called North Korea.
@Regel: SDF is the Janapese Federal Police (FBI + CIA)
No. The closest thing to a Japanese federal police is the NPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_Agency_%28Japan%29). The Police system of Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Police), which outlines that the police is one big bureaucracy unlike the US where each police department is spearheaded by the city government. Besides, the SDF and the Police are notorious for disliking each other when it comes to terms of jurisdiction and control.
Considering the SDF's primary objectives in defending the homeland and providing disaster relief, the closest would actually be the US National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Guard).
aliensporebomb
2006-10-24, 13:50
@Regel: SDF is the Janapese Federal Police (FBI + CIA)
@Klashikari: As I said I agree with your theory.
About the discrepancies, I don't actually remember what I posted =p
But I still stick to the fact that 100+ resets is far too many, Rika would have solved her problem long ago. 15~20 resets would problably be enough specially since she knew all about the hidden research facility and stuff.
I disagree. Rika may have come up with a method to combat what
happened but think about it:
She's a child, a young girl. She has her friends, but she has little or
no money, she has little in the way of resources and doesn't have the
physical brute strength needed to combat what is happening in that
town.
Takano has essentially infinite resources compared to Rika - she has
money, people (adults) and the assistance of the military (brute force,
weaponry, vehicles) and some of these people are not at all bothered
by using dirty deeds and tactics.
Plus, you don't know how little she retains after each reset - and where
each reset occurs. Does she get a days warning to prepare? 10 days?
a month? Six months? A year? Does she start all over again from birth?
You see?
Another issue that comes to mind:
If a young girl between 8-10 years old in your neighborhood started
going on about secret government conspiracies and/or her invisible
friend and curses, would you pat her on the head and say "that's
nice, now go play with your friends" or would you believe her?
See?
Klashikari
2006-10-24, 13:51
err.. my mind is kinda twisted with all this stuff... nevermind.
back to the thread : in fact, you just said "discrepancies", nothing more.
but to your statement :
we absolutely don't know how many reset rika did.
also, keep in mind that the first resets were done for YEARS. (as stated with himatsubushi hen)
that said, there is not only this issue, don't forget that each world are DIFFERENT.
even if watanagashi and meakashi are kinda similar, they are NOT the same with another character point of view (some details prove it).
which mean that rika doesn't probably have a plan for every scenario.
in minagoroshi-hen, you would understand it quite easely with the 3 rules : X, Y Z.
with them, you can understand how rika is trapped, and need EVERYONE will to break that silly fate.
unfortunately, the whole minagoroshi prologue is required to explain the whole rule fact.
this explains in fact the "unvaidable" events, the random factors, and the avoidable scenes.
as for the "hidden" facility, i don't think this is the case, even when ire and takano analyzed her body.
in fact, she would only know that there is a "hinamizawa syndrom", and she "could have something to do with it".
Uh, no. The closest thing to a Japanese federal police is the NPA. You should read the Police system of Japan, which outlines that the police is one big bureaucracy unlike the US where each police department is spearheaded by the city government. Besides, the SDF and the Police are notorious for disliking each other when it comes to terms of jurisdiction and control.
Sorry, I just said what I read at the fansub.
Takano has essentially infinite resources compared to Rika - she has
money, people (adults) and the assistance of the military (brute force,
weaponry, vehicles) and some of these people are not at all bothered
by using dirty deeds and tactics.
Plus, you don't know how little she retains after each reset - and where
each reset occurs. Does she get a days warning to prepare? 10 days?
a month? Six months? A year? Does she start all over again from birth?
You see?
Another issue that comes to mind:
If a young girl between 8-10 years old in your neighborhood started
going on about secret government conspiracies and/or her invisible
friend and curses, would you pat her on the head and say "that's
nice, now go play with your friends" or would you believe her?
Yes, but I don't think that all that resources that Takano have can beat the fact that Rika has knowledge and infinite chances to change her life and Takano DOES NOT KNOW that ... so, what's the use of all those resources if she doesn't know Rika is reseting her life?
As I remember reading from KJ Q&A, and from the first clue on putting pieces together, she reset more than 100 times, and she goes back a few years and than this time reduces as Hanyu powers are getting weaker. Also, all she need to know is that she is going to get killed on summer 1983's Watanagashi's festival day, this is enough to start thinking about a trap.
I agree about the thing about "go play with your friends", but that's why I said she would need to talk to Oishi or whatever very early, so even at start they dismiss her as a child, when things start happening as she foretold, they would start giving her some credit don't you think? I mean, she foretold all the deaths, in detail, to Akasaka. He only learned too late that she was right. If she said that to Oishi instead of Akasaka, he would believe her by 1983 IMHO
in minagoroshi-hen, you would understand it quite easely with the 3 rules : X, Y Z.
with them, you can understand how rika is trapped, and need EVERYONE will to break that silly fate.
unfortunately, the whole minagoroshi prologue is required to explain the whole rule fact.
this explains in fact the "unvaidable" events, the random factors, and the avoidable scenes.
er, where can I find this prologue, or I missed it at the tips? I read all of the pages though =/
Prediction: once it catches on in the U.S. it will be licensed and
everyone will know about it. It just needs that "catch". I suspect
it will be absurdly popular too. I feel like we're members of a weird
little club who know about it before that tidal wave of interest.
Can't wait dude =p
I wonder if the DVD tips will be enough to help.
BTW as I see it, there is plenty of content to make a second season. Minagoroshi and Matsuribashihen seams to be really huge, before reading the clues I though "well they can make an OVA or a 12 episode follow up" ... but I think there is enough to make a full 26 episodes. I know studio deen is not that resourcefull, but HnNKn was such a huge sucess that they might consider doing it, after all ... profit XD
Klashikari
2006-10-24, 14:19
that's why i said "unfortunately", since i used the patch for the game ~~ (i should have edited my post, err sorry)
i'll try to get the prologue in text or summary it a bit.
anyway, the 3 rules told by frederica bernkastel are :
Rule X : someone will be mad and probably commit atrocities
Rule Y : nameless entity is after Tomitake and Takano, they are always dead. i will be killed as well, except some exceptions (rules X interfered)
Rule Z : the whole sonozaki issue is simply fear from a organized bluff
to be short, the Rule Z is feeding the paranoia of Rule X.
Rule Y has something to do with Rule X, and can be interfered by Rule X.
Frederica thinks that if you cannot break the 3 rules altogether, the fate won't be stopped. (even if you prevent rule X to happen, rule Z will feed it, and it will replay again. also, rule Z is covering Rule X : everyone think that sonozaki family is behind the bizarre events around hinamizawa)
(if anyone think i was interpreting it wrong, correct me ^^" )
The entire Minagoroshi prologue taken from the patch. (http://marthx.mmii.info/higurashi/prologue.txt)
Hopefully it'll encourage more people to play the game. It's a good example how detailed it is.
Klashikari
2006-10-24, 14:36
huhu, sounds like i read carefullY the prologue, though i was a bit crude and vague XD.
anyway, about the season comment, like i said in the episode 26 thread, it won't happen i think.
the main reason of this is because it would require a whole prime season, the ova won't be enough (12-13 is a season in fact).
that said, as we could see, it would be better if deen make a whole 26 season, or it will be awfully butchered.
but the biggest concern about it : this kind of project is big enough to announce it.
and unfortunately, nothing for a second HNNKN season has been announced so far.
they do have the material, but we can't really say if the serie made a sufficient sucess to go on :/
The entire Minagoroshi prologue taken from the patch. (http://marthx.mmii.info/higurashi/prologue.txt)
Hopefully it'll encourage more people to play the game. It's a good example how detailed it is.
Now I have one more person to love don't I ? :love:
-- edit 1 --
but the biggest concern about it : this kind of project is big enough to announce it.
and unfortunately, nothing for a second HNNKN season has been announced so far.
But there are still changes. I know several titles who got continued monthes or years after the first season. To quote some: Crest of Stars, Honey and Clover (took a lot of time to confirm second season), Ah! My Goddess TV (10 years until they decided to animate it again). Let's not loose hope, let's beat rule S - second season lol
-- edit 2 --
Hmmm, nice reading, really nice. It makes quite clear how to beat the game though. But it still does not answer some questions like why Takano did that and where the hell is Satoshi lol.
It also makes me think that Rika's deaths are not related to the curse the same way the other deaths aren't, since Hanyu says they are not related.
So, to beat rule X all you have to do is to diminish rule Z and get a miracle
To beat rule Y things pretty easy ... fake Rika's death would probably stop it
Beating rule Z can probably be achieved at the same time as you beat rule X since they are connected. If just they all get together and discuss things they would probably beath both
imac2much
2006-10-24, 15:26
Hmmm, nice reading, really nice. It makes quite clear how to beat the game though. But it still does not answer some questions like why Takano did that and where the hell is Satoshi lol.
I'm confused. Have you read the "Putting the pieces together" thread? I could be wrong, but I thought it pretty much spelled out why Takano is going to all these measures and what her ultimate goal is.
The Prologue in itself isn't supposed to show you how to "beat the game" per se, especially since when you first read it, you don't even know who the villain is. Even after playing through the entirety of Minagoroshi, I think you'd see "beating the villain" isn't as easy as it might look at first. Especially your potential solutions in spoilers... they wouldn't do anything to fix things. If you read the "Putting the pieces together" thread, you'd realize that Rules X doesn't necessarily come about because of Rule Z... several other factors exist.
Yeah I did read twice the putting the pieces together and I also realise that more than 70% of them are still not translated.
I was not stating the solution as it's obvious I can't get it without at least the pieces, I was merelly stating what can be concluded from the prologue, which is at least a start ;0
Freakman
2006-10-24, 15:56
where the hell is Satoshi lol.
In the grand scale of things, this is really unimportant. As for Takano, about one fourth of Matsuribayashi is spent explaining her character. It fleshes her out a lot.
In the grand scale of things, this is really unimportant.
I know that, the same with why/how Rika parents died, but I'm still curious =p
I realised about Takano development on Matsuribayashi from the pieces, but we are still missing too many pieces to get to understand why she killed Rika ><;
imac2much
2006-10-24, 16:36
I'm assuming no spoiler tags are necessary in this thread, right? Anyways...
My guess about Satoshi (with the information from the provided translations) is that perhaps Irie and co. were forced to use him as a live dissection subject. In the current translated pieces, it seems that Satoko went L5 and Takano was already making preparations to use her as a live dissection subject, but obviously this didn't come to pass. Well, why not? I'm guessing Irie managed to pull some strings or some stunts to prevent it... and it probably pissed off Takano's organization.
So the next year when Satoshi goes L5, I guess this was his chance to redeem himself, so to speak... so he became the next live dissection subject. This might be why in Minagoroshi, Rika seems to know about some kind of sad connection between Irie and Satoko. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.
As for Takano, I'm guessing (like previous posters) that she has three goals: 1) make her grandfather's name known and well respected, 2) leave behind an event or catastrophe that will be on people's minds for years to come, and 3) punish those that mocked her grandfather. I'm guessing the Hinamizawa people treated him poorly or something, so she is just looking for an excuse to destroy them all. In essence, she's using the SDF to destroy the town under the facade of 'wiping the evidence' or something, because of the queen bee theory. That's why in Watanagashi/Meakashi, she isn't able to convince the SDF to go through with the gas disaster coverup; she doesn't have Rika's body to prove her recent death. By the time they learn about Rika's death, more than 13 days or whatever probably already pass, so they know that the Queen Bee theory isn't real (or at least as serious as Takano stated). It's probably still true to some extent, since we know from The Devil's Script TIP that many former Hinamizawa residents started going crazy in the years following the gas disaster.
Anyway, that's just my two cents. I'm glad we got this conversation back on track and on topic.
I have nothing to say, both your theories on Satoshi and Takano make perfectly sense and fit all the tips and clues.
Satoko probably got saved by a vaccine. In one of the pieces I remember reading they were going to test it on her, I guess it worked. That's probably the vaccine we see Rika trying to inject on Shion and Rena (game).
And when Satoshi went L5 after killing his aunt, Takano wanted more dissection since they already had a vaccine, she was probably aiming for the oposite: something that would trigger a L5 effect (which is probably what she used on Tomitake)
So in short by 1983 all of Takano's studies were complete, all she had left to do was to summon the disaster to avenge her father. Only she probably don't want her name to go down with it so she watanagash'ed Rika after being apparently dead. People never link Rika's watanagashi to Takano, the great disaster occurs, and Takano is living happly in a far away land laughing of them, having proved her father theories AND brought revenge on the village.
If however she cannot watanagashi Rika, or find her corpse in 48h, the Queen theory won't fit, thus the government wont unleash the big disaster. In a way, she would probably be far away, except she didn't acopplish her revenge? =/
theory: even if the government though that Takano, Tomitake and Irie were dead and the research ended, I take it they would still keep an eye on Rika, so there would be nothing from preventing Takano from comming back in 1984 and watanagushing Rika to unleash the disaster. So I take it is one of the steps for a happy ending that Takano is either killed, arested or proved wrong on the queen theory.
Instead of trying to explain things here, I think I'll just be quiet and work on the puzzle pieces instead. It'll probably answer the questions faster that way... :heh:
imac2much
2006-10-25, 08:41
Hehe, you're probably right. I'm not really looking for answers in this thread per se... just throwing ideas around for people to speculate and form their own ideas from.
Instead of trying to explain things here, I think I'll just be quiet and work on the puzzle pieces instead. It'll probably answer the questions faster that way... :heh:
Agreed xD~
hmm... but is there any symbolic meaning of Rika's watanagashi? besides the 48 hour queen bee theory, the difference between the gas incident and non-gas incident chapters are Rika being watanagashi or die in other means (suicide/totured).
Still cannot spot any clue or hint why Takano choose to watanagashied Rika instead of shooting/poison/stab etc....
Klashikari
2006-10-26, 05:46
probably because of the local religion.
remember about how the dam war occured : the furious people were acting panzer all the way.
in fact, the watanagashi style gives 2 undeniable advantages :
1) the police, even while carrying every possibilities, will be focusing on a mere "random culprit" speculation which is simply a fanatic.
2) the chaos which rika's death under "oyashiro-sama curse" will probably generate some crazed people, which will not only give to takano perfect scapegoat for her cover
but also, takano's disaster plan require a good excuse to eliminate hinamizawa people. and what is it? the hinamizawa syndrome, which cannot be controled anymore (the queen died), and will let loose the paranoid frenzied people. (a huge treat to the nation, which led fear amoung the country people and possibility lots of chaos around the area)
for that, she need to put the people under the paranoid killing frenzy with some measure and countermeasure (fear from oyashiro with rika watanagashi death, some artificial madness like for tomitake's ).
with this, she proves her grandfather theory, but also get the authority to suppress hinamizawa village.
in fact, the 2 factors are merged : 1) the proof of the theory 2) the excuse to kill everyone
hmm... but is there any symbolic meaning of Rika's watanagashi? besides the 48 hour queen bee theory, the difference between the gas incident and non-gas incident chapters are Rika being watanagashi or die in other means (suicide/totured).
Still cannot spot any clue or hint why Takano choose to watanagashied Rika instead of shooting/poison/stab etc....
Do you remember in one of the earlier TIP, which seems to be from Takano's grandfather, on what is the exact process of watanagashi, and how death from it is different from a normal death?
The innards of the victim is eaten.
Provided with the fact that Takano takes her grandfather seriously, that he had asked her to become god, that she believes the key to becoming god is through parasites, I do believe she took all the necessary steps to become god in the way he wished, or she thought he wished.
I find this the only way to make sense the differences between the scenarios where Rika gets watanagashi'd/gets killed by Shion. It wasn't what was done to her that matters - it's the result of what was done to her that counts, and that is of Takano becoming god.
Or that she believes she'd become god anyways.
It's evident that her grandfather's theory is flawed. When Rika dies without being watanagashi'd, nothing happened. The question then is what happened when Takano performs the watanagashi on Rika? Whatever she discovers, it leads to the gas disaster.
People in the know, how far off am I? :heh:
I think we are switching cause and effect here.
I believe that Takano only Watanagashi Rika so the military will unleash the great disaster, that's all. It's the same as klashikari theory: if they know in less than 48 hours of her death, than they are afraid that the queen theory is right and have no choice to be safe and destroy the village. However, if Takano simply killed Rika in any way, it would diminish the religous factor from her death, spoiling the Oyashirosama impact, so she Watanagashi Rika for two reasons: unleash the great disaster and still keep the Oyashirosama curse alive in those who live.
If Rika dies in any other way, not only I agree with klashikari that it seams it takes too long for them to find out, but it also removes the "sacredness" of her death, voiding part of Takano's plan.
I doubt very much that Takano eats anything from Rika, she is a scientist and know better than anyone about the biology of the Hinamizawa sindrome. She knows about the parasite, the vaccine and probably on how to infect someone in purpose, so why bother with the ritual?
Takano is crazy and obcessive, but she is not dumb ;)
2 Klashikari
Ok, i do agree that Rika wasn't found within 48 hours after her death in 2, 5 arks.
But:
Does watanagashed Rika make the whole village mad?
1) Yes.
And an ordinary killing doesn't. Then does the madness appear because of people's stress caused by watanagashiing?
Question:
Why the three gonsake head's (including Rika) death doesn't cause such a big stress?
2) No.
Then I don't agree that government trust everything Takano says. In my opinion they spread the gas in case of village's madness only.
Klashikari
2006-10-26, 12:39
1)
watanagashi "style" : this ritual is based on something consecrated to Oyashiro-sama, i believe. also, the previous deaths were aknowledged as "oyashiro-sama curse", whatever the current and true cultprit is. (it means that everything was under oyashiro-sama will : she decide who will die and who will fulfill its wrath)
In watanagashi and Meakashi, hinamizawa people will probably know who is the culprit (either shion or rika herself).
leaving them theses possibility of reasoning : a tragedy occured by some unexplained madness etc. (it is way better explained with shion : she killed every gosanke head. People will probably understand that as a "revenge" since she was in the shadows of her sister. )
But, in the other chapters, they have absolutely no clue who is it (takano is "dead", and used probably a perfect cover via the yamainu, just like she did with her fake death. the irony of it is she didn't need to make a "date matching" corpse, since the people there will be scary about some "undead" and the yamainu manipulating the information (dental inprint, etc))
so, as the time pass, hinamizawa people are kinda screwed : their sacred miko of their almighty god is now dead. the culprit is not found. with some doubt and fear (remember that hinamizawa syndrom expose pretty quickly any paranoid thought), people will explain the matter with the easiest way just like they did with the previous watanagashi incidents : OYASHIRO-SAMA CURSE !
like Caiobrz interpreted pretty well what i meant with the watanagashi, thoses who managed to survive will think it is all oyashiro-sama will, and they are punished for their fault (rika death etc). the TIPS also show that hinamizawa people are mutilating/suiciding, along with the fear to the nation (though it could be worse if the hinamizawa syndrome was revealed)
2)
if watanagashi doesn't affect anything, the watanagashi factor will simply give takano some credit about the syndrome as well.
if you were a spectator without any clue/tips just like us, only knowing the events during ONE CHAPTER with the disaster (say tatarigoroshi or tsumihoroboshi), who will you suspect with that style of killing?
a fanatic? or a mad researcher?
i'm exaggerating a lot, yes. but i demonstrate that the wantagashi has 2 benefits to takano.
at last, the government trust takano.
they approved the theory and also the plan. but the government has faith in their hidden medical facility to cure the syndrome.
why would takano say they admit the possibility of some syndrom etc in Yagouchi's Quarry (Piece #10) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=696384&postcount=10) ?
the government seems to have had a shadow project, but they are also investigating the matter to solve it, before being forced to finish all of this shit with such brutal manner.
or, it would be not logical that they would give such medical facility along... why not just launch a nuke to hinamizawa instead?
indeed, i'm not pretending that my whole theory "takano's queen theory as an excuse / 48h problem / for grandpa love sake and god eccentrical dream" is flawless.
but i think this is the closest one so far from the truth (and it's getting even closer with the new pieces XD)
aliensporebomb
2006-10-26, 13:27
I still think no parasite is needed if a beloved religious "leader" is
slaughtered horribly - my example of say, the pope, being slaughtered
in such a way would create a massive and violent response to anyone
identified as perpetrator.
I still suspect that at some point perhaps the government organization
who wanted to use this as a bio-weapon maybe saw things getting
out of control when Irie was killed (maybe one of the killers reported
the killing order to their superior) and they scuttled everything as it
was obvious Takano was going tornado mentally.
Klashikari
2006-10-26, 14:32
irie was murdrer only at tatarigoroshi-hen if i'm not mistaken. (edited XD)
the whole "queen thing" is not needed but take part of Dr Takano researchs and theory. in fact, the point isn't important at all... except for takano, who is completely nuts and devoted to her grandfather.
also, the difference between the syndrome and a "regular riot" would be the pathogen itself : the government didn't fear the hinamizawa people (they didn't act at all while there was the dam war. but takano's group had to do some countermeasure against the project, otherwise the research would be a waste.) but it would be a huge scandal and chaos if they would let loose some crazed case like this.
in fact, as far as i could see with takano status, they are not aware about some existant grudge or whatever. (this doesn't have any sense they would give such important matter for this kind of person).
though we don't know how far she is mad, even irie and tomitake who are always with her, didn't notice her madness (they would be suspicious in some moments i guess... until tomitake discovered the truth and get killed under the L5)...
after all, takano is kinda... skilled for manipulating people (keiichi, shion and rena were like her puppets, while ooishi just activated their doubts.)
we can say takano is a insane psycho, because we were able to see her in different worlds, with her dark past.
but each character in their own world would see her simply as a occult freak, with some creepy speech. (and since she is "killed" quite early in each chapter, she is most likely out of suspicion, and she even adds more paranoia to the "future L5" victims)
in any case, the disaster plan is simply a cover to suppress any "syndrom" clue (though it was rather amateur... leaving some occult freaks on the net having pretty solid good points for some inconsistencies (the crater, the uncorroded metal, etc)
and indeed to prevent some questions about how a whole village would disappear/die.
ire was killed only at tatarigoroshi-hen if i'm not mistaken.
Well, he was also klled in Tsumihoroboshi-hen.
And I think, he gets killed in 1,3,4,6,7 arcs (and maybe in 2,5 arcs too).
Klashikari
2006-10-26, 14:52
while i say killed, i meant murdered intentionnaly in fact XD (sorry for the confusion)
but as far as i could search, there is no mention of him being dead while there is the disaster, except tatarigoroshi.
(the major issue is that we only have watanagashi and tatarigoroshi casualties list :s)
alive or dead, it seems he is just caught in the mass i guess (in the very end, he would die like anyone else. except the peculiar case of tatarigoroshi)
while i say killed, i meant murdered intentionnaly in fact
We are told everywhere that he commited suicide.
Tsumihoroboshi-hen:
the mysterious death of the village clinic's head doctor
From here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=689296&postcount=133
Klashikari
2006-10-26, 15:05
oh yeah, thanks !
hummm let's see... what about the same situation as tomitake?
i mean, irie discovered everything (takano betrayal, etc) ? he sure would be stomped under the huge SDF/yamainu rush XD
*headache* this is really filled with small annoying plotholes >_>
actually as we can see in the epilogue (I don't remember if it's a TIP or piece), in Meakashi-hen SOME people still went mad because Rika died (in Meakashi-hen there is no disaster). I believe these people went mad indeed because of the spiritual/trauma from loosing their miko, which is in the lines of aliensporebomb theory. However, as much as people love their miko, I don't think that they would ALL go INSANELLY MAD because of that unless there is indeed some pathogen.
So I think that since Takano wanted to make it to be believed (her own theories, her grandfather theories, her research,etc) she wanted for Rika's death to be as much horrible (watanagush'ed is the worst in the religion point of view) and than trigger the disaster so everybody would agree like "oh, Poor Takano is dead, but she was right! she was a genious!).
If Rika is not found in due time (48h) and/or not killed in such manner, than this effect would be hugelly reduced, thus dismantling her need to force the disaster. There is even a chance that the government didn't really believe and wanted to go with plan 34 (disaster) and actually were the yamainu who actually triggered the disaster.
as for:
Why the three gonsake head's (including Rika) death doesn't cause such a big stress?
That seams obvious to me. They are important because people FEAR them in a social way, not religious way. In fact, a lot of people would probably be relieved if they died, meaning their so called "attrocities" and "evilness" (which we know are only a facade) would stop. Thus, the death of Gosanke head's wouldn't trigger madness, actually happiness xD~ (except obviously cute Rika who is loved and don't have an evil fame about her)
-- edit --
I'm pretty sure Irie was killed off by Takano for the same (whatever) reason she killed Tomitake. They both were well versed on the parasite stuff and probably by the time already realised she was wrong about the queen theory, so they would certainly be on the way and try to prevent her from triggering the great disaster. So for her to go with her plan to watanagushi Rika and trigger the disaster, she had to "erase" everyone who would prove her theories wrong even after her "death" - after all, she want to be remembered as a God (genious, etc..)
We are told everywhere that he commited suicide.
and before we got the pieces translated we even believed other stuff because they were told everywhere ... better wait for the whole pieces be translated to really say that with conviction ;)
We are told everywhere that he commited suicide. and before we got the pieces translated we even believed other stuff because they were told everywhere ... better wait for the whole pieces be translated to really say that with conviction
I only told about the fact he was dead not about why did he die.
I don't think that they would ALL go INSANELLY MAD because of that unless there is indeed some pathogen.
Do you think that the whole "Hinamizawa syndrome" not only "queen theory" is a fake?
Do you think that the whole "Hinamizawa syndrome" not only "queen theory" is a fake?
No, the syndrome is real, or else neither Irie nor Tomitake would help out Takano since the sole reason would be to waste money and dissect people. We clearly see that Irie discovered the patogens after the first dissection, even being able to create a vaccine after researching Rika (take a look at latest pieces that Sushi-Y posted, it's clear Satoko was saved by such vaccine).
But the queen theory is certainly false. Not fake, Takano might even trust it's real, but there is only one way to prove it right? >D
aliensporebomb
2006-10-27, 15:53
Upon further thought, I do believe the syndrome is real - remember how
certain events caused people to respond much more intensely than they
would normally? And the more extreme the event the more extreme the
mental response? It all leads back to Rika again - if she dies, they go
off the deep end for obvious reasons.
the fakeness of the syndrome does not make ANY sense. It would mean that either Irie, Tomitake and even Takano are being lied at, but they are also faking it. Read the latest pieces that Sushi-Y posted, does it seam in any way that Irie is faking the existence of the pathogen and the Syndrome? Why would he lie about that? he have a lot of morals going on, and Rika (which knows it all) pushes him to use the vaccine, further proving that (A) there is a syndrome and (B) there is a vaccine. Some 3 or 4 pieces would not make any sense if the syndrome itself was fake.
The queen theory, however, is just a theory so far, and the fact that nobody goes insane if Rika dies in other scenarios other than watanagashied proves it's wrong. Thus, people with the syndrome need to be near the pathogen source, but if the pathogen source is destroyed, the syndrome is destroyed, not the other way around. One might say that the ultimate cure is to kill Rika, but since we don't want that, it's easier to let Irie work on a vaccine/cure.
well well the latest piece Sushi-Y posted kind of explains everything about Satoko, and show us there is indeed a drug that induces L5 and thus explains Tomitake eventual death.
Pieces are falling together >D
No, the syndrome is real,
I do believe the syndrome is real
the fakeness of the syndrome does not make ANY sense.
Ok, ok nobody says it's a fake. I thought Caiobrz does but I was wrong.;)
----------------------------------
Idea:
We do know that Takano dies during Great Hinamizawa Disaster (GHD). So, she dies in the village. There's no way she could order to spread the gas while she was there (unless she wanted to commit suicide). So the SDF doesn't need any command from Takano for that.
What can we get from these:
1) Something really happens with the village.
2) Takano did something stupid (like eating someone :) ) because before she died everything was going according to her plans.
Klashikari
2006-10-30, 09:14
The disaster is in fact the "public" announcement of a accidental and natural genocide.
there is a high chance that takano let loose the SDF to kill every hinamizawa people, and use the volcano of the Onigafuchi Marsh thing as an excuse too. (in fact, there weren't any disaster, as stated several times, it was takano's carnage plan)
why? read the TIPS #133 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=689296&postcount=133), the volcano gas disaster is full of flaws (i really can't believe they were doing this cover like amateurs)
the goverment can't kill the whole village, because there isn't any elligable raison, ever. (the very existence of the hinamizawa syndrom would simply discredit the government and would give them a statue of ruthless killers, planning some stupid bioweapon and get a silly backfire) so why not faking all of this mess with a natural disaster?
the clues :
1) as stated in the TIPS, there are too much inconsistencies in the "natural gas disaster"
2) the disaster happen a bit...too luckily for takano (right after she killed rika, the whole village is wiped... that kind of coincidence is plain impossible, or it would happen at watanagashi-hen and meakashi-hen. that was the whole point of the previous discussion about the queen theory etc : the disaster is a cover, takano want hinamizawa wiped. takano used a silly theory and kill anyone who is preventing it)
so, to me, takano is alive and of course, is enjoying the whole mess.
here are a summary of the whole thing :
takano, irie and tomitake are sent to hinamizawa. their mission is to study the syndrom, make several research to cure it, but also to master it (unvalueable weapon, since it cannot be detected, whatever the H170 or the pathogen itself, as demonstrated in the piece, and with each tomitake's death)
takano secret plan is in fact to avenge her grandfather, forcing the authorities to show respect to their researchs. also, she want to fulfill his wish : to become a god (whatever how and what)
takano sets several points to the institue that the syndrom is a "queen" type (from the last piece we have, it seems that takano aknowledge that the queen theory is false, but she wants to prove that the human mind is controlled by parasites, which was Later takano theory)
the group contacts the furude family. (takano took the advantage of the local myth, with oyashiro-sama and its reincarnation. the whole story fits with the "miko with divine power" belief)
the dam project is announced. the yamainu is sent to stop it with the kidnapping of the grandson construction minister. (proved with Himarsubushi-hen : Ooishi and Akasaka noticed that the 2 kidnappers were trained, beyong simple "yakuza" or villager level)
the group intercepted the sixth dam manager killer, an L5.
the institue is working on the pathogen with the living sample, since they can't study it with dead hosts.
because of his guilt, irie dare to try the C103, in a despaired attempt to prevent satoko being disseced by takano.
the C103 is effective on satoko.
takano doesn't mind, since they have valuable data with the H170 (giving her the possibility to create a L5 anytime she wishes)with the above information, we can deduce that :
-takano planned for several years gathering data which would credit her for her queen theory.
-for this, she needed to control the syndrom
-with this mastery, she could plan the disaster : she could simply kill furude rika, and points it was villager fault (the watanagashi style), and using for her benefit the paranoia and killing frenzy (with or without the H170)
=>double effect : the villagers wille believe that the culprit followed oyashiro-sama will. they will fear their god wrath. and takano will then have more points, showing the village chaos.
=> this will result for several things :
1) her theory was proved, and she could then use her grandfather research to get approved as well.
2) she would leave her name to the history as a savior of japan (she avoided the whole hinamizawa chaos, by finding the "queen theory" and setting the carnage backplan, though it wouldn't be known for the people, the government would be "thanful" to her, for her researchs etc), and also, the cause of a genocide. (you know... people can be very high when they feel they have the power to decide if someone can live or should die...)
and it seems that at each chapter, she approches a random friend of rika, planning him/her to create some mess.
it is obvious that she was toying with the future mad kid, leaving more paranoia around.
so, she gets a perfect scapegoat and a living L5 sample in action, proving to the goverment of the lost control over the pathogen, because of furude rika's death
the main flaws :
-she needs to activate her disaster plan within 48h from rika's death (if she can't set a paranoid chaos within this time limit, the queen theory is null and void. if the chaos happen before rika's death, it doesn't prove anything either. so it can't be prior to rika's death, nor too late)
-she can't do this before or way after the watanagashi festival (she needs the whole local myth and the "normality" as someone dies and another disappears each year, thanks to the local people belief around Hinamizawa)
won't quote Klashikari so:
*consider everything quoted*
thumbs up, thought all that was pretty obbious, but merging them like that makes people realise it better
As a note, mind you, how do we actually know that Takano died at the Hinamizawa disaster? she and the Yamainu could left and nobody would notice since they already thought she was dead from the burnt woman they found. I think there is a chance she just fled in time and now lives away, might be even protected by the government since she proved her theories and left a whole information on the syndrome (and the 'deadly' H170) for them.
theacefrehley
2006-10-30, 22:03
takano sets several points to the institue that the syndrom is a "queen" type (from the last piece we have, it seems that takano aknowledge that the queen theory is false, but she wants to prove that the human mind is controlled by parasites, which was Later takano theory)[/LIST][LIST]
Sorry
But why do you think that Takano aknowledges the theory is wrong at this specific point?
I think that up to now (1980) she still thinks it's a feasible theory
another interesting point
This Hinamizawa Syndrome is pretty strange. When does it came to existence?
Is it a disease that always existed since the ancient ages, or it is some kind of artificial disease?
I was thinking about it for quite some time....
Klashikari
2006-10-31, 06:02
in fact, it is only a speculation.
the H170 (Piece #02) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=719590&postcount=25) shows how far takano is able to go.
alonside with her comments, there is the most important thing about takano : her vision of the syndrom, and the human mind :
......Anyway, the research is going very well.
What is Hinamizawa Syndrome trying to show us humans?
There's no doubt it'll be showing us yet-unseen secrets, my heart dances in intellectual excitement.
The Hinamizawa Syndrome has shown us the possibility that humans are nothing more than empty containers, and the things that we believe to be our own consciousness are actually something that came from special parasites that live in our frontal lobes.i felt really strange that if she really thought the queen theory was solid, why suddenly babling with such serious this kind of theory?
she was also more concerned with the fact they can now create any L5 at will, despite the fact they can study the pathogen directly with rika.
so, i deduce that rika wasn't important at all at the current time (1980), although she was "believing" with irie it was a queen theory.
but this isn't really important i think, wherever she believes it or not, we can understand her personnality.
as for the hinamizawa syndrom itself, we don't have enough material to determine where it comes from, and how/why.
local disease? artificial (bioweapon) ?
i don't really have a clear picture about it, but according the stories about the Onigafuchi people, the pathogen (or something really close to it) was already in action.
I take it it's been a long gone since the syndrome exists, since Takano grandpa was researching on it, you can go back at least some decades. And than, I don't believe that back in 1950~1960 they had enough technology to develop such thing (do we have it now?). Also, Takano speculates the syndrome was discovered on that Marco Polo incident during the war (1940's), which takes us further back. So I believe the syndrome is a natural occurence.
I think that if Takano believes or not on the Queen Theory is irrelevant, since what really matters to her is that the government does so she can trigger the great disaster. However, it's certain it's not true since in the chapters where the great disaster did not occur (but Rika died) nothing serious happened besides an eventual resident going mad, which is quite understandable since their beloved miko "Oyashiro-sama" reincarnation died.
Yet Rika is an important research item regardless their capability to create L5 at will with H170 since she is the main host. I mean, it's clear that if people go away from Rika they get L5 eventually, but it's also clear they can go L5 near her (at the city). So here is a thought: do they get L5 because they get away from Rika, or if they get away from Hinamizawa? (enviroment might be the key to the syndrome, not a 'queen' host).
Side note: I don't think Takano dies in any arch. She just disapears and leave a fake body as in the burnt woman. Note how "Miyo" is a false name. I don't think she would go all that far to just die in her own mistake.
Also I believe there is a reason why that burnt body was found and believed to be dead 24h earlier than the festival: perfect alibi for Takano, I mean, even they believing she is dead, they cannot even imagine she killed Tomitake or has anything to do with Rika's death since they believe she was long dead before that! And since it's important for Takano to become God (in the sense of heroism, famous, leave a name), it was important to create a alibi even "after" her death.
Klashikari
2006-10-31, 16:03
Yet Rika is an important research item regardless their capability to create L5 at will with H170 since she is the main host. I mean, it's clear that if people go away from Rika they get L5 eventually, but it's also clear they can go L5 near her (at the city). So here is a thought: do they get L5 because they get away from Rika, or if they get away from Hinamizawa? (enviroment might be the key to the syndrome, not a 'queen' host).
i was not really thinking like this.
in fact, i supposed the whole pathogen is simply living within the fauna and flora of hinamizawa.
there isn't any restriction to stay there or not : they were some inhabitants who were leaving this place (example : maebara couple, houjou "foster" couple, and especially : ryuuguu couple) and didn't show any problem.
the main reason the others couldn't is because the silly belief. (i was really concerned about what satoshi said to "mion" when he was mumbling about oyashiro-sama and all.)
example : Rena was a child, she was utterly shocked of the truth about her mother. the impact of this has activated the pathogen. she then gets crazy about any threat... but some time later, she felt uneasy, guilty for what she has said and done. she even thought it was her fault that her parents get divorced... and finally, she has taken the easy path : oyashiro-sama curse.
the fact none of her parents were subject to the paranoia is a proof. (and also, the tips about rena demonstrated she was really aweakened by the seperation).
thus, i don't think the problem comes from the distance between people and a "certain source". i think people were just getting L5 after the Great Hinamizawa Disaster because of the chaos and their belief to oyashiro-sama.
so, i conclude the pathogen is only lurking around hinamizawa, and anyone who is under a specific mental state will trigger the pathogen, while being infected, wherever he/she is.
the hardcore villagers would trigger it with any "blasphemy" shock around oyashiro, the others from painful experiences etc. examples : rena's parents divorce, satoko's mother and stepfather, sonozaki family for shion, Rena and Mion strange behaviour in onikakushi for keiichi, etc etc. (indeed, takano and ooishi helped growing keiichi, shion and rena paranoia)
so, leaving the area wouldn't make it any worse nor better, as long as the subject doesn't have a proper cure.
but if i'm wrong, the environnment can be the cause, which would explain why rika said in himatsubushi-hen "we can't live anywhere else" to akasaka, and also this belief about getting punished by oyashiro-sama if you leave the village. (the matter about a carrier is really out of question)
in the other hand, we can't say staying near of rika will make anyone mad (rika's friend don't become crazy, until a sadistic takano is roaming around with her freaky scrapbooks. the children in school don't really look mentally ill, and chie sensei is really... well "genki" ^^. i'm aware that satoko was a L5 wityhout showing any dangereous external sign. but with the stress and all of rena's school assault at Tsumihoroboshi-hen, i guess they have no particular sensivity towards Rika, although they are really often with her )
note that the H170 is a serum made by the institue, exactly like the C103, it doesn't come from any subject (irie says several times this is a drug under test for the C103, and he was comparing them in effects and all. the H170 is simulating a unstable mind state, nothing really "fancy" )
finally, i won't quote your post about takano, it's plain obvious : she is alive, and enjoy her glory in most time of the story.
The missing Pieces of the Puzzle (#17 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=696324&postcount=8), #27 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=696735&postcount=11), #13 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=696738&postcount=12), and #05 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=696742&postcount=13)) have been posted.
Klashikari
2006-10-31, 20:03
whew, thanks KJ, this is really interesting ! (sheesh, i wasn't excepting irie background would be THAT complex oO)
i guess the second and third sacrifice pieces will be really interesting too (patiente will be worthy indeed. thanks again for the great job ! )
Mmm....I love this thread/everything you guys have done so far!
I just finished watching the anime this week and I have to say I was totally confused about everything and this has really helped clear the majority of it up. The only thing left being that accursed Satoshi! (curse you!) Hehe but I can wait <3
Anyway my theory about Satoshi was already posted in that I believe he was dissected after he killed his aunt and went craaaaazzzyy. I dont quite see how they could have convinced Irei to do but I am pretty sure thats the only real logical explanation. (Unless he really is in Canada!)
Hehe oh well only time will tell.
The missing Pieces of the Puzzle (#17, #27, #13, and #05) have been posted.
Um, thanks. I was looking forward for that.
Sorry
another interesting point
This Hinamizawa Syndrome is pretty strange. When does it came to existence?
Is it a disease that always existed since the ancient ages, or it is some kind of artificial disease?
I was thinking about it for quite some time....
ha this always puzzle me too. I tried my best to come up with a feasible theory/story to link the syndrome and oyashirosama and the watanagashi tradition together, and here's the lame story i come up, takano scrapbook style:
In the distant past, a spaceship fell and landed into Hinamizawa swamp, an alien name Hanyuu was the sole survivor of the accident, in which the difference between her and the normal earthlings is the 2 horns she had on her forehead.
She fell in love with one of the villager head and form a family with him (Rika's ancestor). Some times past and there was an outbreak of a strange disease that will cause people to go mad, attacking and killing one another, even end up butchering and eating the bodies. After careful investigation, she found out the cause of the disease was due to the alien parasite, (or micro bio organism that can control human emotions) that is attached to the spaceship during its space travel, and is brought into planet earth by the crush of the space ship. (Since the spaceship is sank in the swamp thus folktales says that demons arise from the bottomless swamp)
Hanyuu acts as a doctor and try to cure the disease by isolating the people, keeping them emotionally stable, and even let them ate infected human flesh to build up their immune system (copy from the anime's Reana's explaination of the syndrome)
But in the end the disease was still out of control, thus in the act of desperation, Hanyuu sacrifice herself by letting the villagers watanagashi her and ate her flesh to gain immunity, since she is totally immune to the disease. (Or perhaps she was the original carrier and trigger for the disease? that explains well with the guilt she had and the "sorry" she kept saying)
Hanyuu spirits lives on although her body is dead (if you really want an explaination, I'll just say is Alien life cycle structure that is uncomprehensible by normal human explanation)
and she was worshipped as god for her act of sacrifice by the villagers.
Going into more out of strech imagination:
Hanyuu is actually a vampire alien and Chie was sent to investigate it by her organisation (Using 7th heaven..... is it just a fan-service or a plotline that shows Chie is actually the same person in the other Typemoon series?)
The paranoid/bugs are actually create by spells/socery which is practice by Zoken Mato (Sakura's grandfather) of Fate/Stay Night. (..... this seems far fetch since higurashi comes out before Fate/Stay Night lol)
And is it possible that Takano's "madness" is also driven by the Hinamizawa Syndrome?
Keichii, an outsider, only moved to the village one month ago and he is already an infected carrier of the syndrome. Thus for Takano and Ire who work and stay there for years, they probably also are infected by the paranoid as well. If that's the case, it may explain well why Takano wanted "to destroy all of hinamizawa" after hearing the news that the research centre is going to shut down...
Klashikari
2006-11-02, 09:22
errr... i think you are thinking too much :heh:
except for hanyuu (with some extent : the reboot thing, and memories of rika), everything in HNNKN is pretty rationnal (even the syndrome isn't really unreal, it could be possible, based on the possible delusions with only psychological unstability). the world still has its mysteries, but it's rather possible to determine things with scienc and such (the story is fictionnal, yet, almost everything is based on facts)
for takano, you are mixing paranoia and... well, megalomania.
the syndrome is just putting the person under severe paranoia, creating fear, delusions, killing frenzy, and huge urging scratching need around the throat.
takano is simply a huge megalo, because of her grandfather (the syndrom could increase the effect though)
errr... i think you are thinking too much :heh:
except for hanyuu (with some extent : the reboot thing, and memories of rika), everything in HNNKN is pretty rationnal (even the syndrome isn't really unreal, it could be possible, based on the possible delusions with only psychological unstability). the world still has its mysteries, but it's rather possible to determine things with scienc and such (the story is fictionnal, yet, almost everything is based on facts)
for takano, you are mixing paranoia and... well, megalomania.
the syndrome is just putting the person under severe paranoia, creating fear, delusions, killing frenzy, and huge urging scratching need around the throat.
takano is simply a huge megalo, because of her grandfather (the syndrom could increase the effect though)
well like the original post stated, I'm just trying to link all of the above together. Cos sometimes folktale actually facts of the past but explained with the people's limited knowledge, and there maybe some truth in it. Like from example for all the folktale we heard, "the demons come from the swamp"/"the people have demon blood in them" etc, and if we link the "demon" to be " Hinamizawa Syndrome ", it actually makes pretty good sense.
But i admit that post was just another form of "takano's scrapebook" to try to rationalise how the syndrome come about lol.
I have to confess I had a good ride on tehtf post right there xD~
also, Takano scrapbooks are all lies made up to instigate further madness on her victims. Notice how she handles precisely the scrapbook which would trigger the most delusional behaviour for each character when needed (notes on Gosanke/Shinozaki wrongdoings for Shion, notes on the whole alien/bio weapon conspiracy to Rena), though Oishi apreended lots of her scrapbooks and none of them make sense at all.
I bet she is just having fun, but that's actually pretty smart, that's called "desinformation warfare", spreading incorrect information so you never know if you got is right or not.
Khym Chanur
2006-11-03, 08:16
Hey, everyone, this is my first post to the Higurashi board on the AnimeSuki forums; I'd like to thank the translators for all their hard work. This post contains a number of questions and guesses/theories, so please bear with me. I'm going to use the spoiler tags to save space, since this is kind of long
First, the recently translated The Mistrust of the Queen's Mother (Piece #11) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=723564&postcount=26) has given me a theory as to why Mika's parents became "victims of the curse". Takano didn't want Mika to be removed from the research project due to her mother's objections, so the mother had to be gotten rid of. Once this was decided, since they were already getting rid of her, they used her as test subject, since , if the queen theory was correct, she was the queen carrier before Rika; they could compare and contrast the results from Rika versus her mother to either disprove the queen theory or gain more insight into it.
At the same time that Rika's mother was taken (and her suicide note forged) her father was killed in order to continue the previous pattern of one person showing up dead and the other disappearing on the night of the Watanagashi. In the first Watanagashi death/disappearance, the Yamainu (Takano's organization) had nothing to do with the death of the construction site manager, and while it was responsible for the disappearance of one of the manager's murderers, the fact that the incident took place on Watanagashi was pure chance (since H170 hadn't been developed yet, the manager's Syndrome couldn't be artificially induced). That Satoko's parents died/disappeared on Watanagashi, and the fact that one corpse was found and the other not found, was also a coincidence. But now that a pattern had been established by coincidence, Takano wanted to keep that pattern up (though I'm not sure as her motive for doing so).
Hmmmm, but wait. According to the Minagoroshi prologue (http://marthx.mmii.info/higurashi/prologue.txt), if something happens in all of the different worlds, then it's important, and possibly caused by someone taking steps to make sure it happens. But I don't see how it could be the dam site manager's death and mutilation to be arranged unless Takano already had a means of artificially inducing the Syndrome, but H170 wasn't developed until after the vivisection of the missing murderer of the dam site manager. Hmmmmm.Now, my thoughts on the syringe that Mion used on Keiichi at the end of episode 4 (Onikakushi-hen, Spirited Away by Ogres arc). One possibility is that there was no syringe, that the Syndrome had progressed to a point where the he was so delusional that he thought that something innocuous (like the marker used in the first penalty game) was actually a syringe. After killing Mion and Rena, Keiichi added to the secret note the bit about the "curse" being cause by a drug, attached the note and not-syringe to the back of the clock, then had further delusions which caused him to rip out the part of the note that mentioned the drug and remove the not-syringe before putting the clock back on the wall. But this theory fails because:
1) It would then be a big coincidence that Rika tried to use a syringe on Shion (or Shion had delusions of a syringe).
2) What kind of delusions could Keiichi have that would make him tear out the part of the note that mentions drugs and remove the not-syringe from the back of the clock?
3) It's a really boring theory.
So then, I think that there really was a syringe that Mion had. If this is the case, the questions are:
1) Who gave Mion and Rena the syringe and told them to use it on Keiichi?
2) Why did this person have those two do it, as opposed to someone else?
3) What were the contents of the syringe?
4) What were Mion and Rena told in order to get them to try to inject Keiichi?
For #1, one possibility is Rika, since she tried to use a syringe on Shion in several of the other arcs. If so, the answer to #2 would be that Rika However, there are no indications that Rika shared her knowledge about what was happening at this point in her repetitions/reboots. Also, if it was Rika, then why did those three men (Yamainu?) knock out Keiichi and drop him off at his house?
Another possibility is Irie, but this also presents some problems:
A) If the three men knocked out Keiichi on Irie's orders, then he would have had them do the injection. On the other hand, if Takano ordered them to do so, what was her motive?
B) Mion and Rena said that they had contacted Irie (the baseball coach/manager) and that he'd be coming over. But if he met up with them in person in order to give them the syringe, why couldn't he come over to Keiichi's house with them?
The last possibility that I can think of is that Takano gave the syringe to the girls. She had the three men knock out Keiichi and dump him at his house, then gave the girls the syringe and told them where he was.
Now, for question #3 (the contents of the syringe), if the syringe was given to the girls by either Rika or Irie, the contents would be something to help Keiichi, either a sedative/tranquilizer or C103. If it was given to them by Takano, then there's a variety of possibilities for the contents, but Takano must have known that there was a good chance that Keiichi could prevent the girls from injecting him, so why not leave the business of the injection to the three men? The answer is that it didn't matter if he was injected or not, the point was to have the girls come at him with a syringe so as to drive Keiichi up from L3 or L4 to L5. And if the point of giving the girls the syringe was to give Keiichi a certain psychological stimulus, then Takano couldn't risk the girls succeeding in injecting him with the sedative/H170/whatever, so the contents of the syringe had to be totally inactive. In other-words, ordinary water.
For question #4, if the syringe were given to Mion and Rena by Rika or Irie, they would have been told that Keiichi had to be injected for his own good, that his strange behavior was a result of an illness and that the injection would help. In this case, the two of them would most likely have told Keiichi that they were doing this for his own good, but what he heard was that they were doing it for a penalty game. I suppose it's possible that Keiichi's Syndrome had progressed so far that he was hearing things entirely different than from what people were actually saying to him, but if that was the case, why would he hallucinate that they were talking about a penalty game? If Takano gave them the syringe, she could have also used a "it's for his own good" line, but that suffers from the same problems noted above. But, unlike Rika or Irie, she had the option of telling the girls that the syringe only had water in it, and that they could use it for a practical joke. However, the theory that Takano told them the syringe contained water still has the problem that she either had to know that Mion and Rena were looking for a penalty game to play on Keiichi, or she had to have a reason for directly suggesting to the girls that they play the practical joke on Keiichi.I've been wondering about how much of the first arc was stuff that actually happened and Keiichi perceived correctly, how much actually happened but he perceived incorrectly due to paranoia/delusion, and how much (if any) he outright hallucinated. Specifically, I'm thinking about: 1) Mion and Rena knowing things about Keiichi that they shouldn't be able to know, 2) Mion's rant about how she should have killed Ooishi, 3) Rena talking to Keiichi after school about how she won't let him be demoned away, something that she should have done for Satoshi, and 4) Keiichi finding a sewing needle in the food that Rena gave him.
For #5, I think that him finding a needle in the food was a hallucination. Rena might have put something pointy but harmless into one of the... whatevers, but observing something pointy-yet-harmless but seeing a sewing needle goes beyond misinterpreting what your sense tell you due to paranoia, and can only be explained by hallucination. As further evidence of hallucination, he couldn't find the needle when Ooishi asked him for it; if it were a mere paranoid misinterpretation, then he would have found whatever he had mistaken for a needle and mistaken it for a needle again due to misinterpreting it in the same way.
For #2, Mion's rant about how she should have killed Ooishi, I think was just a paranoid misinterpretation, made easier because Mion was talking to herself and so was easy to be misheard from a distance. She was ranting because Ooishi has been trying to pin the Watanagashi deaths/disappearances on her family, and because he keeps on asking asking Satoko about her parents death with a persistence Mion perceives as harassment.
For #1, Mion and Rena knowing things about Keiichi that they shouldn't be able to know, I think this happened exactly as Keiichi perceived it, with no paranoid misinterpretations or hallucinations. Rena knew that Keiichi had talked with Ooishi instead of having gone to the restroom, but someone else at the school could have told her that. Rena and Mion knew that he had had lunch at that restaurant, but Shion could have told him that he was there (assuming that Keiichi was too worked up to notice that someone looking exactly like Mion was there). Rena knew exactly what Keiichi was going to be eating for dinner when he refused to let her into his house, but she could have seen him buying the instant noodles when at the Sevens Mart (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=549467&postcount=21).
For #3, Rena talking to Keiichi after school about how she won't let him be demoned away, I think it was mainly paranoid misinterpretations, at least with regards with her going into "cat-eye mode", where she speaks calmly speaks in a somewhat lower voice, and wears a neutral look on her face. I'm guessing that she was actually pleading/distraught/crying, and the insane laughter after she kissed him was actually her sobbing/weeping. I'm not sure if her carrying the hatchet was real or a hallucination.I'll post more later, but I really have to get some sleep now.
theacefrehley
2006-11-03, 10:07
Hey, everyone, this is my first post to the Higurashi board on the AnimeSuki forums; I'd like to thank the translators for all their hard work. This post contains a number of questions and guesses/theories, so please bear with me. I'm going to use the spoiler tags to save space, since this is kind of long
First, the recently translated The Mistrust of the Queen's Mother (Piece #11) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=723564&postcount=26) has given me a theory as to why Mika's parents became "victims of the curse". Takano didn't want Mika to be removed from the research project due to her mother's objections, so the mother had to be gotten rid of. Once this was decided, since they were already getting rid of her, they used her as test subject, since , if the queen theory was correct, she was the queen carrier before Rika; they could compare and contrast the results from Rika versus her mother to either disprove the queen theory or gain more insight into it.
At the same time that Rika's mother was taken (and her suicide note forged) her father was killed in order to continue the previous pattern of one person showing up dead and the other disappearing on the night of the Watanagashi. In the first Watanagashi death/disappearance, the Yamainu (Takano's organization) had nothing to do with the death of the construction site manager, and while it was responsible for the disappearance of one of the manager's murderers, the fact that the incident took place on Watanagashi was pure chance (since H170 hadn't been developed yet, the manager's Syndrome couldn't be artificially induced). That Satoko's parents died/disappeared on Watanagashi, and the fact that one corpse was found and the other not found, was also a coincidence. But now that a pattern had been established by coincidence, Takano wanted to keep that pattern up (though I'm not sure as her motive for doing so).
Hmmmm, but wait. According to the Minagoroshi prologue (http://marthx.mmii.info/higurashi/prologue.txt), if something happens in all of the different worlds, then it's important, and possibly caused by someone taking steps to make sure it happens. But I don't see how it could be the dam site manager's death and mutilation to be arranged unless Takano already had a means of artificially inducing the Syndrome, but H170 wasn't developed until after the vivisection of the missing murderer of the dam site manager. Hmmmmm.Now, my thoughts on the syringe that Mion used on Keiichi at the end of episode 4 (Onikakushi-hen, Spirited Away by Ogres arc). One possibility is that there was no syringe, that the Syndrome had progressed to a point where the he was so delusional that he thought that something innocuous (like the marker used in the first penalty game) was actually a syringe. After killing Mion and Rena, Keiichi added to the secret note the bit about the "curse" being cause by a drug, attached the note and not-syringe to the back of the clock, then had further delusions which caused him to rip out the part of the note that mentioned the drug and remove the not-syringe before putting the clock back on the wall. But this theory fails because:
1) It would then be a big coincidence that Rika tried to use a syringe on Shion (or Shion had delusions of a syringe).
2) What kind of delusions could Keiichi have that would make him tear out the part of the note that mentions drugs and remove the not-syringe from the back of the clock?
3) It's a really boring theory.
So then, I think that there really was a syringe that Mion had. If this is the case, the questions are:
1) Who gave Mion and Rena the syringe and told them to use it on Keiichi?
2) Why did this person have those two do it, as opposed to someone else?
3) What were the contents of the syringe?
4) What were Mion and Rena told in order to get them to try to inject Keiichi?
For #1, one possibility is Rika, since she tried to use a syringe on Shion in several of the other arcs. If so, the answer to #2 would be that Rika However, there are no indications that Rika shared her knowledge about what was happening at this point in her repetitions/reboots. Also, if it was Rika, then why did those three men (Yamainu?) knock out Keiichi and drop him off at his house?
Another possibility is Irie, but this also presents some problems:
A) If the three men knocked out Keiichi on Irie's orders, then he would have had them do the injection. On the other hand, if Takano ordered them to do so, what was her motive?
B) Mion and Rena said that they had contacted Irie (the baseball coach/manager) and that he'd be coming over. But if he met up with them in person in order to give them the syringe, why couldn't he come over to Keiichi's house with them?
The last possibility that I can think of is that Takano gave the syringe to the girls. She had the three men knock out Keiichi and dump him at his house, then gave the girls the syringe and told them where he was.
Now, for question #3 (the contents of the syringe), if the syringe was given to the girls by either Rika or Irie, the contents would be something to help Keiichi, either a sedative/tranquilizer or C103. If it was given to them by Takano, then there's a variety of possibilities for the contents, but Takano must have known that there was a good chance that Keiichi could prevent the girls from injecting him, so why not leave the business of the injection to the three men? The answer is that it didn't matter if he was injected or not, the point was to have the girls come at him with a syringe so as to drive Keiichi up from L3 or L4 to L5. And if the point of giving the girls the syringe was to give Keiichi a certain psychological stimulus, then Takano couldn't risk the girls succeeding in injecting him with the sedative/H170/whatever, so the contents of the syringe had to be totally inactive. In other-words, ordinary water.
For question #4, if the syringe were given to Mion and Rena by Rika or Irie, they would have been told that Keiichi had to be injected for his own good, that his strange behavior was a result of an illness and that the injection would help. In this case, the two of them would most likely have told Keiichi that they were doing this for his own good, but what he heard was that they were doing it for a penalty game. I suppose it's possible that Keiichi's Syndrome had progressed so far that he was hearing things entirely different than from what people were actually saying to him, but if that was the case, why would he hallucinate that they were talking about a penalty game? If Takano gave them the syringe, she could have also used a "it's for his own good" line, but that suffers from the same problems noted above. But, unlike Rika or Irie, she had the option of telling the girls that the syringe only had water in it, and that they could use it for a practical joke. However, the theory that Takano told them the syringe contained water still has the problem that she either had to know that Mion and Rena were looking for a penalty game to play on Keiichi, or she had to have a reason for directly suggesting to the girls that they play the practical joke on Keiichi.I've been wondering about how much of the first arc was stuff that actually happened and Keiichi perceived correctly, how much actually happened but he perceived incorrectly due to paranoia/delusion, and how much (if any) he outright hallucinated. Specifically, I'm thinking about: 1) Mion and Rena knowing things about Keiichi that they shouldn't be able to know, 2) Mion's rant about how she should have killed Ooishi, 3) Rena talking to Keiichi after school about how she won't let him be demoned away, something that she should have done for Satoshi, and 4) Keiichi finding a sewing needle in the food that Rena gave him.
For #5, I think that him finding a needle in the food was a hallucination. Rena might have put something pointy but harmless into one of the... whatevers, but observing something pointy-yet-harmless but seeing a sewing needle goes beyond misinterpreting what your sense tell you due to paranoia, and can only be explained by hallucination. As further evidence of hallucination, he couldn't find the needle when Ooishi asked him for it; if it were a mere paranoid misinterpretation, then he would have found whatever he had mistaken for a needle and mistaken it for a needle again due to misinterpreting it in the same way.
For #2, Mion's rant about how she should have killed Ooishi, I think was just a paranoid misinterpretation, made easier because Mion was talking to herself and so was easy to be misheard from a distance. She was ranting because Ooishi has been trying to pin the Watanagashi deaths/disappearances on her family, and because he keeps on asking asking Satoko about her parents death with a persistence Mion perceives as harassment.
For #1, Mion and Rena knowing things about Keiichi that they shouldn't be able to know, I think this happened exactly as Keiichi perceived it, with no paranoid misinterpretations or hallucinations. Rena knew that Keiichi had talked with Ooishi instead of having gone to the restroom, but someone else at the school could have told her that. Rena and Mion knew that he had had lunch at that restaurant, but Shion could have told him that he was there (assuming that Keiichi was too worked up to notice that someone looking exactly like Mion was there). Rena knew exactly what Keiichi was going to be eating for dinner when he refused to let her into his house, but she could have seen him buying the instant noodles when at the Sevens Mart (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=549467&postcount=21).
For #3, Rena talking to Keiichi after school about how she won't let him be demoned away, I think it was mainly paranoid misinterpretations, at least with regards with her going into "cat-eye mode", where she speaks calmly speaks in a somewhat lower voice, and wears a neutral look on her face. I'm guessing that she was actually pleading/distraught/crying, and the insane laughter after she kissed him was actually her sobbing/weeping. I'm not sure if her carrying the hatchet was real or a hallucination.I'll post more later, but I really have to get some sleep now.
On Tsumihoroboshi, it's already clear that there was no syringe or needle... It was a crayon in the first case
The reason of this specific hallucination?
Ooishi mentioned to Keiichi that Tomitake could have died from abuse of some drug (drug calls syringe, isn't it?)
Klashikari
2006-11-03, 10:49
First, the recently translated The Mistrust of the Queen's Mother (Piece #11) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=723564&postcount=26) has given me a theory as to why Mika's parents became "victims of the curse". Takano didn't want Mika to be removed from the research project due to her mother's objections, so the mother had to be gotten rid of. Once this was decided, since they were already getting rid of her, they used her as test subject, since , if the queen theory was correct, she was the queen carrier before Rika; they could compare and contrast the results from Rika versus her mother to either disprove the queen theory or gain more insight into it.
At the same time that Rika's mother was taken (and her suicide note forged) her father was killed in order to continue the previous pattern of one person showing up dead and the other disappearing on the night of the Watanagashi. In the first Watanagashi death/disappearance, the Yamainu (Takano's organization) had nothing to do with the death of the construction site manager, and while it was responsible for the disappearance of one of the manager's murderers, the fact that the incident took place on Watanagashi was pure chance (since H170 hadn't been developed yet, the manager's Syndrome couldn't be artificially induced). That Satoko's parents died/disappeared on Watanagashi, and the fact that one corpse was found and the other not found, was also a coincidence. But now that a pattern had been established by coincidence, Takano wanted to keep that pattern up (though I'm not sure as her motive for doing so).
Hmmmm, but wait. According to the Minagoroshi prologue (http://marthx.mmii.info/higurashi/prologue.txt), if something happens in all of the different worlds, then it's important, and possibly caused by someone taking steps to make sure it happens. But I don't see how it could be the dam site manager's death and mutilation to be arranged unless Takano already had a means of artificially inducing the Syndrome, but H170 wasn't developed until after the vivisection of the missing murderer of the dam site manager. Hmmmmm.
there is indeed a high chance that rika's mother was the "second sacrifice" (the sixth dam manager murderer would be the first)
also, this wouldn't be surprising if rika's father was in fact murdered by the yamainu, to put some chaos and paranoid beliefs (they were taking the opportunity with the 2 previous coincidence : dam manager murder, and houjou couple accident).
i agree with this : takano would have be behind the scene concerning the third incident.
Now, my thoughts on the syringe that Mion used on Keiichi at the end of episode 4 (Onikakushi-hen, Spirited Away by Ogres arc). One possibility is that there was no syringe, that the Syndrome had progressed to a point where the he was so delusional that he thought that something innocuous (like the marker used in the first penalty game) was actually a syringe. After killing Mion and Rena, Keiichi added to the secret note the bit about the "curse" being cause by a drug, attached the note and not-syringe to the back of the clock, then had further delusions which caused him to rip out the part of the note that mentioned the drug and remove the not-syringe before putting the clock back on the wall. But this theory fails because:
1) It would then be a big coincidence that Rika tried to use a syringe on Shion (or Shion had delusions of a syringe).
2) What kind of delusions could Keiichi have that would make him tear out the part of the note that mentions drugs and remove the not-syringe from the back of the clock?
3) It's a really boring theory.
So then, I think that there really was a syringe that Mion had. If this is the case, the questions are:
1) Who gave Mion and Rena the syringe and told them to use it on Keiichi?
2) Why did this person have those two do it, as opposed to someone else?
3) What were the contents of the syringe?
4) What were Mion and Rena told in order to get them to try to inject Keiichi?
For #1, one possibility is Rika, since she tried to use a syringe on Shion in several of the other arcs. If so, the answer to #2 would be that Rika However, there are no indications that Rika shared her knowledge about what was happening at this point in her repetitions/reboots. Also, if it was Rika, then why did those three men (Yamainu?) knock out Keiichi and drop him off at his house?
Another possibility is Irie, but this also presents some problems:
A) If the three men knocked out Keiichi on Irie's orders, then he would have had them do the injection. On the other hand, if Takano ordered them to do so, what was her motive?
B) Mion and Rena said that they had contacted Irie (the baseball coach/manager) and that he'd be coming over. But if he met up with them in person in order to give them the syringe, why couldn't he come over to Keiichi's house with them?
The last possibility that I can think of is that Takano gave the syringe to the girls. She had the three men knock out Keiichi and dump him at his house, then gave the girls the syringe and told them where he was.
Now, for question #3 (the contents of the syringe), if the syringe was given to the girls by either Rika or Irie, the contents would be something to help Keiichi, either a sedative/tranquilizer or C103. If it was given to them by Takano, then there's a variety of possibilities for the contents, but Takano must have known that there was a good chance that Keiichi could prevent the girls from injecting him, so why not leave the business of the injection to the three men? The answer is that it didn't matter if he was injected or not, the point was to have the girls come at him with a syringe so as to drive Keiichi up from L3 or L4 to L5. And if the point of giving the girls the syringe was to give Keiichi a certain psychological stimulus, then Takano couldn't risk the girls succeeding in injecting him with the sedative/H170/whatever, so the contents of the syringe had to be totally inactive. In other-words, ordinary water.
For question #4, if the syringe were given to Mion and Rena by Rika or Irie, they would have been told that Keiichi had to be injected for his own good, that his strange behavior was a result of an illness and that the injection would help. In this case, the two of them would most likely have told Keiichi that they were doing this for his own good, but what he heard was that they were doing it for a penalty game. I suppose it's possible that Keiichi's Syndrome had progressed so far that he was hearing things entirely different than from what people were actually saying to him, but if that was the case, why would he hallucinate that they were talking about a penalty game? If Takano gave them the syringe, she could have also used a "it's for his own good" line, but that suffers from the same problems noted above. But, unlike Rika or Irie, she had the option of telling the girls that the syringe only had water in it, and that they could use it for a practical joke. However, the theory that Takano told them the syringe contained water still has the problem that she either had to know that Mion and Rena were looking for a penalty game to play on Keiichi, or she had to have a reason for directly suggesting to the girls that they play the practical joke on Keiichi.as said by theacefrehley above, in Tsumihoroboshi, it was revealed that the syringe was in fact a marker. Mion and Rena was only playing fools with punishment game, while waiting some help from Irie (since they weren't "evil" they were concerned about keiichi's erratic and strange behaviour).
that's why, you noticed yourself : it would be a bit weird for irie to come, while he gave a syringue to mion. this proves again that mion didn't have any syringue.
every scene with people under oyashiro-sama mode (AKA the "seed mode", cat/lizard eyes) are always delusions (they are only found in Onikakushi-hen, and Watanagashi-hen at the very end, when keiichi "saw" a "bloody mion" assaulting him, which was denied by the end scroll )
the 3 yamainu men were under irie command, and was supposed to take care of keiichi and bring him back home, under mion and rena's care, while he was coming with some treatment. (since keiichi was under L5 state). however, he didn't make in time...
but, you are right for one point : rika's syringue content is the C103. according the comments of irie about it, the C103 has nasty effects on sane people, which is why rika was really in a bad shape when shion injected her the C103, at meakashi-hen.
I've been wondering about how much of the first arc was stuff that actually happened and Keiichi perceived correctly, how much actually happened but he perceived incorrectly due to paranoia/delusion, and how much (if any) he outright hallucinated. Specifically, I'm thinking about: 1) Mion and Rena knowing things about Keiichi that they shouldn't be able to know, 2) Mion's rant about how she should have killed Ooishi, 3) Rena talking to Keiichi after school about how she won't let him be demoned away, something that she should have done for Satoshi, and 4) Keiichi finding a sewing needle in the food that Rena gave him.
For #4, I think that him finding a needle in the food was a hallucination. Rena might have put something pointy but harmless into one of the... whatevers, but observing something pointy-yet-harmless but seeing a sewing needle goes beyond misinterpreting what your sense tell you due to paranoia, and can only be explained by hallucination. As further evidence of hallucination, he couldn't find the needle when Ooishi asked him for it; if it were a mere paranoid misinterpretation, then he would have found whatever he had mistaken for a needle and mistaken it for a needle again due to misinterpreting it in the same way.
For #2, Mion's rant about how she should have killed Ooishi, I think was just a paranoid misinterpretation, made easier because Mion was talking to herself and so was easy to be misheard from a distance. She was ranting because Ooishi has been trying to pin the Watanagashi deaths/disappearances on her family, and because he keeps on asking asking Satoko about her parents death with a persistence Mion perceives as harassment.
For #1, Mion and Rena knowing things about Keiichi that they shouldn't be able to know, I think this happened exactly as Keiichi perceived it, with no paranoid misinterpretations or hallucinations. Rena knew that Keiichi had talked with Ooishi instead of having gone to the restroom, but someone else at the school could have told her that. Rena and Mion knew that he had had lunch at that restaurant, but Shion could have told him that he was there (assuming that Keiichi was too worked up to notice that someone looking exactly like Mion was there). Rena knew exactly what Keiichi was going to be eating for dinner when he refused to let her into his house, but she could have seen him buying the instant noodles when at the Sevens Mart (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=549467&postcount=21).
For #3, Rena talking to Keiichi after school about how she won't let him be demoned away, I think it was mainly paranoid misinterpretations, at least with regards with her going into "cat-eye mode", where she speaks calmly speaks in a somewhat lower voice, and wears a neutral look on her face. I'm guessing that she was actually pleading/distraught/crying, and the insane laughter after she kissed him was actually her sobbing/weeping. I'm not sure if her carrying the hatchet was real or a hallucination.I'll post more later, but I really have to get some sleep now.#4 : though the anime didn't show anything about this, if i'm not msitaken about some spoiler i could read somewhere, the "trap"ohagi was in fact filled with tabasco (or another really spicy sauce).
it is then assumed that keiichi thought his toungue was hurting and bleeding, although there wasn't any needle.
#2 : correct : Mion probably cursed ooshi, because of his way to solve the mysteries, causing probably keiichi to distrust everyone. (and indeed, keiichi misunderstoot it, with his delusions)
#1 : correct. (in the manga and the game, rena told in fact that she indeed saw keiichi buying instant noodles.)
#3 : again, correct : we can assume that rena was really scared, and begging keiichi to believe her, especially when she tried to hug/approche him. the laughter is, again, misterpretation due the paranoia.
for the other scenes, mainly "oyashiro mode", they are also delusions, either the speech or the action (rena trying to force the door while she was offering some dinner would in fact only put her fingers slowly, but keiichi took it as an attack, especially that she said he was lying and was a bit persistant and worried, so keiichi panicked again)
there is indeed a high chance that rika's mother was the "second sacrifice" (the sixth dam manager murderer would be the first)
also, this wouldn't be surprising if rika's father was in fact murdered by the yamainu, to put some chaos and paranoid beliefs (they were taking the opportunity with the 2 previous coincidence : dam manager murder, and houjou couple accident).
And slowly, but gradually, all the pieces are coming together, aren't they?
See Piece #07 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=728264&postcount=28) which has just been posted as the truth behind that will be uncovered there.
Klashikari
2006-11-03, 13:43
oh my... this is a fabulous piece oO
thx KJ, that is sure a perfect timing !
not only the "curse" system is now complete (mix of takano, sonozaki and anciant belief), but also the extent of takano power.
and iof course, with the H170, it wouldn't be hard for takano, to force rika's mother into a L5 state, which irie would not suspect at all. (previous queen thing, always next to rika etc...). takano is really smart and cunning ~~
but hell... she is REALLY THAT nuts :heh:
aliensporebomb
2006-11-03, 14:22
Yes, this and the putting the pieces thread together shows just how
diabolical Takano Miyo is - remember, this is her grandfather's research.
No cost is too extreme apparently for her. Yeow. This is a hell of a story.
You have to wonder what the 7th Expension group does for fun on the
weekends? Grim stuff!
quite nice piece there, thought that was pretty obvious already after we saw that Rika's mother was trying to stop the research and we knew she and her husband were going to be the next to die =p
Khym Chanur
2006-11-04, 01:15
Again, this is rather long, so using spoiler tags to not take up so much vertical screen space.
On Tsumihoroboshi, it's already clear that there was no syringe or needle... It was a crayon in the first case
Ah. I was wondering why Mion and Rena would try something like water filled syringe penalty game on him given how unstable he'd been acting. Question: what delusion/hallucination caused Keiichi to rip out the portion of the note talking about the drugs and remove the crayon from the back of the clock? Or did Irie have that done to prevent the authorities from figuring out just how far Keiichi's delusions had gone? Or did Takano have it done, just for the fun of screwing with the minds of the police? Or (my final theory) the whole scene where Ooishi talks about what was found on the back of the clock was a dream/hallucination Keiichi had as he was dying.
Also, is there a summary/transcript of the Tsumihoroboshi game out there somewhere? I'm pretty sure that this wasn't revealed in the Tsumihoroboshi anime arc.
the 3 Yamainu men were under Irie command, and was supposed to take care of Keiichi and bring him back home, under Mion and Rena's care, while he was coming with some treatment. (since Keiichi was under L5 state). however, he didn't make in time...
Okay, leaving someone in a L5 state alone with two civilians who have no idea how dangerous he is is really stupid. Why didn't the Yamainu babysit him? I suppose Irie didn't want Keiichi to associate the Yamainu with him, but they could have done something like tie him up and leave him somewhere where Irie could conveniently stumble upon upon him. So for whatever reason he decides to leave Keiichi in the care of Rena and Mion, but he can't warn them about how dangerous he is because he can't reveal anything about the Syndrome... But then how was he planning on injecting Keiichi with the C103/sedative all by himself, and without the girls knowing? If he was going to have the two of them hold Keiichi down for him, he'd have to give them some reason the injection. And why didn't Irie tell the Yamainu to disarm Keiichi? Gahhhhhh...
every scene with people under oyashiro-sama mode (AKA the "seed mode", cat/lizard eyes) are always delusions
Huh, wasn't Keiichi in oyashiro-sama mode back when Rena confronted him over the fact that he'd lied to cover up his first meeting with Ooishi? Do the delusions start as early as L1? Or was he already in a more advanced state?
Also, is ep 4 when Rena was telling Keiichi how she wouldn't let him be demoned away, was he hallucinating her carrying the hatchet, or was she really carrying it?
And an unrelated question about the first arc: in ep 4, when Rena is apologizing for "taking the joke to far", is the joke her pretending to be all knowing by revealing what Keiichi is eating for dinner, the "trap" ohagi, or both?
and Watanagashi-hen at the very end, when Keiichi "saw" a "bloody Mion" assaulting him, which was denied by the end scroll
So the psychological trauma of being knifed by "Mion" was enough to send Keiichi straight from L0 to L5? Hmmmm, and is Keiichi infected with the parasite in every world? Obviously, not everyone who visits Hinamizawa becomes infected, so why is Keiichi always infected? Does the Irie clinic infect all newcomers to the area with the parasite? They already have several thousand native inhabitants to study, I would think that they'd want to see how quickly newcomers would be infected naturally, if at all. Or do the researchers think that the native inhabitants might have evolved a inheritable resistance to the parasite, and they want to see how someone with without those genes will react to the parasite?
and iof course, with the H170, it wouldn't be hard for takano, to force rika's mother into a L5 state, which irie would not suspect at all. (previous queen thing, always next to rika etc...). takano is really smart and cunning ~~
Hmmmm, I don't think that she would inject Rika's mother with H170. First, if someone who was daily in the presence of the queen went as far as L5, it would discredit her queen carrier theory. She could tell her superiors back in Tokyo what she'd done while keeping Irie in the dark, but feeding your chief researcher false information isn't a good way to run a research project, and it would likely get the project defunded. Second, I think Takano would have wanted to compare a pure, untampered queen to a pure, untampered previous queen, and injecting the former queen with H170 would have muddied up the data they would have gotten. So I think that Takano did the research/vivisection on the mother herself, and then presented the resulting data to Irie as a done deal, rather than have Irie do the procedures herself; after all, Takano did say that she wanted to get revenge on the mother herself.See Piece #07 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=728264&postcount=28) which has just been posted as the truth behind that will be uncovered there.
Cool! So, at this point Takano still believes in the queen carrier theory? I would have thought that she would have abandoned this theory when Satoko reached L5 in spite of the fact that she's best friends with the supposed queen and is frequently in her presence (either her dedication to her grandfather is so great that she ignores anything that would disprove any of his theories, or she had no idea that Satoko and Rika hung out together). A while back I'd gotten the idea that Takano had engineered for the great disaster because her research into Rika had eventually given unignorable evidence that the queen carrier theory was false. The death of Rika would prevent anyone else from researching her and duplicating the discovery that the queen carrier theory was false, engineering the great disaster fabricated proof that queen carrier theory was correct, and discovering that her beloved grandfather's theory was false would have made her even further crazy than before. I'd discarded the idea when I thought that Satoko's L5 state would have disuaded Takano of the queen theory, but now I think the idea still has some merit.
Hmmmm, but Takano says that the data being gotten from Rika is invaluable, and acts as the compass for the entire project. If Rika isn't the queen, what kind of invaluable data are they getting from her? Is Rika's imporatnce to the project a delusion of Takano's, and Irie is right that they don't need to do further research on her? Or are the parasites in Rika special, just not special in the way which would make the queen theory true? The only difference/specialness I can think of would be that Rika's parasites allow her to see and hear Hanyuu, but if that's the only difference, then how is that difference invaluable to the research into the syndrome? (Hmmmm, there's an idea for a fanfic: a world/arc/chapter where the research project develops a drug which allows the subject to see and hear Hanyuu.)
And it turns out that Takano grew up in an orphanage. I would think that she would have resented her grandfather for not adopting her and taking her out of the orphange, but instead she reveres him; strange.And now I jump to my theories about Hanyuu and Rika's "reboots". One theory is that there are an infinite number of different universe, but only one Hanyuu, because she was born in the space between the universes. She chose Hinamizawa in one of the universes as a place to live and befriended Rika because Rika was the only one who could interact with her. When Rika died, she moved sideways between universes and backwards through time to find another Rika, and gave Rika the memories from the previous universe in the hopes that Rika could prevent stay alive this time around. (While universes do exist where, for example, Takano died in a car accident before establishing the Hinamizawa Syndrome research project, Hanyuu either ignores those universes because their Rikas don't need help, or universes that are highly similar form into clusters, and Hanyuu is stuck in a cluster where the research project is always established, where rules X, Y and Z are always true). While intellectually I kind of like this theory, overall I dislike it, because even if Hanyuu succeeds in changing one universe so that Rika and all her friends survive, there will still be universes out there that she will have never visited and thus could not have saved; she keeps getting weaker with each attempt, and there's no way she can save all the universes out there. It also has the problem that in some universes Rika would have known Hanyuu for almost all her life, while at the other end in some universes Rika would only have known Hanyuu for the few weeks before June 1983.
My other theory on the reboots and Hanyuu is that there was originally only one universe, with Hanyuu born inside of it. When Rika died, she went back in time within the same universe to try to alter history. However, history can't be changed, so when she arrived in the past the universe split in two: one that proceeds from the present, with Rika dead and Hanyuu gone, and the other proceeding from the past, with Rika alive and a Hanyuu with foreknowledge trying to change things. (What happened to the Hanyuu from the past? She couldn't have merged with the Hanyuu from the future, since then Hanyuu's energy reserves wouldn't decrease with each reboot. Or does she merge, and the merger is what weakens her?) When she arrives in the past, her connection to Rika causes Rika to gain the memories of what happened to her before the reboot. Keiichi gains his memories from a previous universe either because he hangs out with Rika, because he's infected with the parasite and Hanyuu has some connection to it, or both. This scenario has the advantages that the Rika in each universe has always known Hanyuu, and that once Hanyuu and Rika succeed and creating a happy ending there won't be any more universes in need of help that remain beyond Hanyuu's reach.
However, the second theory has the problem that, with each reboot, not only does Rika have less and less time to try to fix things, but more and more of the past becomes set in stone. For the sake of the argument, suppose that with each reboot, the amount of time Hanyuu can go back decreases by a day. On reboot N Hanyuu arrives at January 1, 1980. If this reboot fails, the reboot N+1 will land her on January 2, with whatever random events happened happened on January 1 of the Nth reboot being fixed, and also being fixed for all further reboots. If the random events that sometimes lead to Shion going insane happen on January 1, 1980, then it was by purest chance that those events didn't happen on January 1 of the Nth reboot. If they had happened then, then on the N+1 reboot, and all subsequent reboots, Shion would always go crazy. For me, it doesn't fit in with the feel of the story that, as Hanyuu's strength gradually wanes, that the random events of the past that fall from her grasp and become set in stone just by chance happen to be the random events that won't prevent a happy ending.
I also have some thoughts on just Hanyuu herself. One of the things that I've wondered is if Hanyuu is tied to the Hinamizawa. I would think that, over the hundreds of years of elapsed time in which Hanyuu and Rika are trying to create a happy ending, one of them would have gotten the idea of Hanyuu traveling to other parts of Japan, or even other parts of the world, looking for a priest/monk/shaman/guru/whatever that can see her. Maybe Rika is the only person in the entire world who can see Hanyuu, but I think that Hanyuu can't leave Hinamizawa to find out.
What could tie Hanyuu down to Hinamizawa? It could be that her kind are tied to the area where they are "born", but an explanation like that would have no connection to the rest of the story. The only thing that I can think of that would tie her to Hinamizawa is the parasite, and hence the curse. And if Hanyuu has no connection to the parasite, then she is only Oyashiro-sama in the sense that she is a deity like being who resides in Hinamizawa, and Hinamizawa's deity is Oyashiro-sama; from a story-telling point of view, that's rather unsatisfying. One idea I had was that all the parasites in all of the infected villagers constitute her body, and are connected together by some supernatural means; she would see and hear anything that any of the villagers saw or heard. However, this would only mostly tie her down to the village, since people born to the village do leave, like Rena's family. And even ignoring that, there's something about this I don't like that I can't really put my finger on.
Another idea is that the parasites in Rika alone constitute Hanyuu's body. Hanyuu was born when Rika was born, and Hanyuu ages as Rika ages (which would explain why the village's deity is a little girl instead of a grown woman). Rika is the reincarnation of Oyashiro-sama, which is why Hanyuu is Oyashiro-sama. Rika never leaves the village, so Hanyuu is tied to the village (though Hanyuu must be able to project herself at least several kilometers, since Satoko once heard her apologizing, and Rika probably wasn't present at the government/villager damn meeting (Local Project Meeting (Piece #26) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=694297&postcount=3)), but Hanyuu certainly was there). According to Research Note II (Ep. 13) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=601921&postcount=64) in the TIPS:
Footnote 3: Literal translation of this way of spelling "Oyashiro-sama" - The deity of every eight generations
So the female members of the Furude family are "queen carriers", but no in the way that Takano supposes: every eight generations, the parasites of a girl in the Furude family give rise to a consciousness with supernatural powers, Oyashiro-sama. But what is Oyashiro-sama? When demons invaded from the marshes, Oyashiro-sama came down and made peace between them (can't find a TIPS for this). According to Takano, the parasites have grown weaker over the generations, and the Syndrome only becomes activated due to extreme psychological stress (is there a TIPS for this?) I'm guessing that Takano is wrong: it's not that they've grown weaker over time, but that the parasites have some sort of biological clock that wakes them up every eight generations, and every eight generations an Oyashiro-sama is (re)born with the power to put them back to sleep, hence keeping the peace between humans and the "demons".
From Scrapbook I (Ep 06) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=556819&postcount=28):
What the Onigafuchi village feared the most was Oyashiro-sama's curse.
There's very little left that describes what kind of punishment Oyashiro-sama eventually dealt.
Among the various legends about the village, several disturbing ones that looked like the village was completely destroyed stood out, as "He'll open the gates to hell", "Demons will flow out", "The infernal miasma will come out and kill all of the people in the village without leaving them a chance to escape."
The timing of the birth of the eighth generation Furude girl isn't precise, and the timing of the wakening of the parasites might not be precise either. Thus, sometimes the girl is born long before the parasites wake up, and is there in adult form to put them back to sleep the instant they wake up, so that there is no disaster. However, sometimes she is born late, and isn't matured enough to have the power to immediately put them back to sleep, resulting in the villagers going L5 and almost wiping themselves out before Oyashiro-sama grows old enough to have sufficient power to put them to sleep. Thus, Takano's queen theory isn't entirely incorrect: it's not that the death of the queen causes the parasites to wake up, but that the parasites are due to wake up at a certain time, and if the queen isn't alive when that time comes they'll never go back to sleep. This is why research on Rika is the "compass" for Takano's project. In the universes in which the great disaster does not happen, improvements made to C103 after Rika's death enable parasites to put back to sleep without their queen, while the current C103 only makes them drowsy.
This waking-up-every-eight-generations thing reminds me of the seventeen year locust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_year_locust), insect that spends years and years as nymphs underground, and every seventeen years emerge from the ground, turn into adults, and lay eggs for the next generation. Perhaps the parasite waking up is some necessary part of the life cycle (though I'm coming up blank on imagining a biology that would require this), with the paranoia a side effect of that part of the life-cycle. The queen carrier line is there to put them back to sleep, so that they don't wipe out their hosts due to the paranoia side effect. One nice tie-in for this theory is that the seventeen year locust is actually a cicada. However, it's a type of cicada native to the eastern part of North America, and "Higurashi" is a type of cicada that buzzes when it gets dark.And, finally, some speculation on what happened to Satoshi. This speculation is based on the anime, which might have changed things or gotten things wrong, so this might be completely off base. Anyways, in the third arc, Keiichi pats Satoko on the head while in the classroom, she has a flashback to Satoshi patting her while smirking evilly, and as a result she panics to a degree which gives her an adrenaline boost that lets her shove Keiichi so hard that he goes flying, then vomits. This struck me as an extreme overreaction to be being abandoned by Satoshi, and thought that maybe Keiichi had started abusing her before she left. Reading the Pieces thread and learning that the Syndrome makes people paranoid, I thought that Satoshi's paranoia could have lead him to believe that Satoko was purposfully being dependant on him so as to frustrate him, and in retaliation he beat her. Then it turns out that Satoko has reached L5 in the past, and most likely killed her own parents. So now I'm thinking that after Satoshi's not-yet-L5 Syndrome led him to beat up Satoko, this triggered her into full L5 and she killed him. Afterwards she repressed the memory of killing her precious Nii-nii (has she also repressed the memory of killing her parents?), and even repressed the memory of Satoshi beating her. Keiichi patting her on the head were starting to bring back those memories, which is why she reacted so violently.
Klashikari
2006-11-04, 08:01
Ah. I was wondering why Mion and Rena would try something like water filled syringe penalty game on him given how unstable he'd been acting. Question: what delusion/hallucination caused Keiichi to rip out the portion of the note talking about the drugs and remove the crayon from the back of the clock? Or did Irie have that done to prevent the authorities from figuring out just how far Keiichi's delusions had gone? Or did Takano have it done, just for the fun of screwing with the minds of the police? Or (my final theory) the whole scene where Ooishi talks about what was found on the back of the clock was a dream/hallucination Keiichi had as he was dying.
Also, is there a summary/transcript of the Tsumihoroboshi game out there somewhere? I'm pretty sure that this wasn't revealed in the Tsumihoroboshi anime arc.
not really easy to answer this..
i guess the syringue matter was a problem for irie, since he gave to keiichi a shot (which was really suspicious, since it's quite bizarre to give a shot for the flu, and even worse when you know that keiichi faked a flu). so, they possibly misunderstood what keiichi meant with the syringue (but it would be a bit strange for them to remove the "syringue" which is in fact the marker )
but the police investigation is fact : we have another point of view, from ooishi. and this time, we know only what the police have found.
so, the note was really cut, and something is missing behind the clock.
Okay, leaving someone in a L5 state alone with two civilians who have no idea how dangerous he is is really stupid. Why didn't the Yamainu babysit him? I suppose Irie didn't want Keiichi to associate the Yamainu with him, but they could have done something like tie him up and leave him somewhere where Irie could conveniently stumble upon upon him. So for whatever reason he decides to leave Keiichi in the care of Rena and Mion, but he can't warn them about how dangerous he is because he can't reveal anything about the Syndrome... But then how was he planning on injecting Keiichi with the C103/sedative all by himself, and without the girls knowing? If he was going to have the two of them hold Keiichi down for him, he'd have to give them some reason the injection. And why didn't Irie tell the Yamainu to disarm Keiichi? Gahhhhhh...here is my little speculation :
although keiichi was under L5 state, i would say that irie was gambling with Mion and Rena, since they "are" his best friends. Even if keiichi was under L4-L5, he wouldn't expect him to have an immediate killing frenzey (probably just like satoko, who was kinda calm).
So, he probably asked for them to soothing a bit with some fun etc.
unfortunately for them, Keiichi was way more dangerous than expected.
like you said, he couldn't reveal what's the hinamizawa syndrom, so, his actions were really limited.
another problem : rena was around when keiichi snapped and get caught by the yamainu, so they wouldn't be able to take him to the facility (keiichi would witness the facility, and rena would think strange that they wouldn't let him rest, etc)
for the injection, i guess he will still inject him the C103, but lying to the girls saying : this is a sedative, he will be calmer, and with some time to rest, he will be better. he had probably too much stresses, homesickness etc.
Mion and Rena have witnessed keiichi's erratic behaviour, so some sedative would sound really normal i guess.
as for the bat, it's highly probable that the yamainu was simply underestimating like irie, his killing power. since keiichi was only defending himself and running away, they could think he was using this bat as only a threat and have no plan to smash anyone with it (and since keiichi is a kid for them, you can bet they were really not expecting him to cause a real threat to them...)
Huh, wasn't Keiichi in oyashiro-sama mode back when Rena confronted him over the fact that he'd lied to cover up his first meeting with Ooishi? Do the delusions start as early as L1? Or was he already in a more advanced state?we don't know how the scale goes for the Hinamizawa Syndrom, but we can expect that L2 and L3 just give some creeps, paranoia + some speech change and slight physical delusions (rena would probably say "uso da" but in another manner etc)
Also, is ep 4 when Rena was telling Keiichi how she wouldn't let him be demoned away, was he hallucinating her carrying the hatchet, or was she really carrying it?i think this is also an hallunication. (her school bag?)
keiichi was really under huge stress : seeing mion about the delusion "killing ooishi" would probably give him more creeps and would feel some direct killing attempt on him.
And an unrelated question about the first arc: in ep 4, when Rena is apologizing for "taking the joke to far", is the joke her pretending to be all knowing by revealing what Keiichi is eating for dinner, the "trap" ohagi, or both?this is hard to answer : according the manga, Rena didn't know about the trap ohagi. (and as far i could remember about the ohagi, it was mion, so...)
now, if we can imagine how rena would react "normally" here, it would be the first time that keiichi "attacks" her directly, leaving her no clue why he do that, though he is yelling "go home!". and we probably know : rena would feel herself guilty and could felt like it was her fault, and she was "fooling around".
however, the "too much" is really weird... it is also possible that it's ANOTHER delusion (it could be a mistake from the anime too).
So the psychological trauma of being knifed by "Mion" was enough to send Keiichi straight from L0 to L5? Hmmmm, and is Keiichi infected with the parasite in every world? Obviously, not everyone who visits Hinamizawa becomes infected, so why is Keiichi always infected? Does the Irie clinic infect all newcomers to the area with the parasite? They already have several thousand native inhabitants to study, I would think that they'd want to see how quickly newcomers would be infected naturally, if at all. Or do the researchers think that the native inhabitants might have evolved a inheritable resistance to the parasite, and they want to see how someone with without those genes will react to the parasite?i don't think you have to be under L5 for this kind of delusion. (i guess the terminal stage is some crazy behaviour with the killing frenzy. just compare how far keiichi was crazy in onikakushi hen, with rena in tsumihoroboshi hen)
it would be the L3-L4.
though, keiichi had experimented 2 near death experience with a "oni" mion : the silly "demon" case was really sticking his mind. with the stress and pain with theses 2 situations, it is kinda huge already. now, if you add some silly ooishi's "undead" comment, it would make sense.
i don't think there is anything special with the inhabitants, but like any pathogen, some people are more resilient to X pathogen than another etc.
Hmmmm, I don't think that she would inject Rika's mother with H170. First, if someone who was daily in the presence of the queen went as far as L5, it would discredit her queen carrier theory. She could tell her superiors back in Tokyo what she'd done while keeping Irie in the dark, but feeding your chief researcher false information isn't a good way to run a research project, and it would likely get the project defunded. Second, I think Takano would have wanted to compare a pure, untampered queen to a pure, untampered previous queen, and injecting the former queen with H170 would have muddied up the data they would have gotten. So I think that Takano did the research/vivisection on the mother herself, and then presented the resulting data to Irie as a done deal, rather than have Irie do the procedures herself; after all, Takano did say that she wanted to get revenge on the mother herself.Following the comments in the pieces, the queen has just the capability to suppress the "automatic L5 evolution". it woudn't always prevent any infected people to get crazy, or the very first case they were studying, the sixth dam manager murderer, would already nullify the theory.
we will see at another piece probably, but well... it is certain that takano will toy a lot with rika's mother, as the former queen or/and as a L5 state.
Cool! So, at this point Takano still believes in the queen carrier theory? I would have thought that she would have abandoned this theory when Satoko reached L5 in spite of the fact that she's best friends with the supposed queen and is frequently in her presence (either her dedication to her grandfather is so great that she ignores anything that would disprove any of his theories, or she had no idea that Satoko and Rika hung out together). A while back I'd gotten the idea that Takano had engineered for the great disaster because her research into Rika had eventually given unignorable evidence that the queen carrier theory was false. The death of Rika would prevent anyone else from researching her and duplicating the discovery that the queen carrier theory was false, engineering the great disaster fabricated proof that queen carrier theory was correct, and discovering that her beloved grandfather's theory was false would have made her even further crazy than before. I'd discarded the idea when I thought that Satoko's L5 state would have disuaded Takano of the queen theory, but now I think the idea still has some merit.
Hmmmm, but Takano says that the data being gotten from Rika is invaluable, and acts as the compass for the entire project. If Rika isn't the queen, what kind of invaluable data are they getting from her? Is Rika's imporatnce to the project a delusion of Takano's, and Irie is right that they don't need to do further research on her? Or are the parasites in Rika special, just not special in the way which would make the queen theory true? The only difference/specialness I can think of would be that Rika's parasites allow her to see and hear Hanyuu, but if that's the only difference, then how is that difference invaluable to the research into the syndrome? (Hmmmm, there's an idea for a fanfic: a world/arc/chapter where the research project develops a drug which allows the subject to see and hear Hanyuu.)
And it turns out that Takano grew up in an orphanage. I would think that she would have resented her grandfather for not adopting her and taking her out of the orphange, but instead she reveres him; strange.
it's way too vague to understand her point of view, despite her comment about the queen etc. ~~
And now I jump to my theories about Hanyuu and Rika's "reboots". One theory is that there are an infinite number of different universe, but only one Hanyuu, because she was born in the space between the universes. She chose Hinamizawa in one of the universes as a place to live and befriended Rika because Rika was the only one who could interact with her. When Rika died, she moved sideways between universes and backwards through time to find another Rika, and gave Rika the memories from the previous universe in the hopes that Rika could prevent stay alive this time around. (While universes do exist where, for example, Takano died in a car accident before establishing the Hinamizawa Syndrome research project, Hanyuu either ignores those universes because their Rikas don't need help, or universes that are highly similar form into clusters, and Hanyuu is stuck in a cluster where the research project is always established, where rules X, Y and Z are always true). While intellectually I kind of like this theory, overall I dislike it, because even if Hanyuu succeeds in changing one universe so that Rika and all her friends survive, there will still be universes out there that she will have never visited and thus could not have saved; she keeps getting weaker with each attempt, and there's no way she can save all the universes out there. It also has the problem that in some universes Rika would have known Hanyuu for almost all her life, while at the other end in some universes Rika would only have known Hanyuu for the few weeks before June 1983.
My other theory on the reboots and Hanyuu is that there was originally only one universe, with Hanyuu born inside of it. When Rika died, she went back in time within the same universe to try to alter history. However, history can't be changed, so when she arrived in the past the universe split in two: one that proceeds from the present, with Rika dead and Hanyuu gone, and the other proceeding from the past, with Rika alive and a Hanyuu with foreknowledge trying to change things. (What happened to the Hanyuu from the past? She couldn't have merged with the Hanyuu from the future, since then Hanyuu's energy reserves wouldn't decrease with each reboot. Or does she merge, and the merger is what weakens her?) When she arrives in the past, her connection to Rika causes Rika to gain the memories of what happened to her before the reboot. Keiichi gains his memories from a previous universe either because he hangs out with Rika, because he's infected with the parasite and Hanyuu has some connection to it, or both. This scenario has the advantages that the Rika in each universe has always known Hanyuu, and that once Hanyuu and Rika succeed and creating a happy ending there won't be any more universes in need of help that remain beyond Hanyuu's reach.
However, the second theory has the problem that, with each reboot, not only does Rika have less and less time to try to fix things, but more and more of the past becomes set in stone. For the sake of the argument, suppose that with each reboot, the amount of time Hanyuu can go back decreases by a day. On reboot N Hanyuu arrives at January 1, 1980. If this reboot fails, the reboot N+1 will land her on January 2, with whatever random events happened happened on January 1 of the Nth reboot being fixed, and also being fixed for all further reboots. If the random events that sometimes lead to Shion going insane happen on January 1, 1980, then it was by purest chance that those events didn't happen on January 1 of the Nth reboot. If they had happened then, then on the N+1 reboot, and all subsequent reboots, Shion would always go crazy. For me, it doesn't fit in with the feel of the story that, as Hanyuu's strength gradually wanes, that the random events of the past that fall from her grasp and become set in stone just by chance happen to be the random events that won't prevent a happy ending.
about hanyuu : hanyuu is a part of rika's past and she will be always in her memories.
so the first theory is false i think : i don't think hanyuu will simply travel between the universe to help.
she will probably reboot to the maximum she could in the past, and when she succeed, it would create in the time, another universe.
so, you second theory is most likely the good one.
as for the second theory problem : this was a bit convenient, but most of the random and dangerous factor happen around 2 weeks befor ethe watanagashi festival.
keep in mind that several parts of the story are canon in any chapter like : the 4 oyashiro-sama incident, rena's past, ekiichi's past, shion and satoshi's story, shion who snapped towards mion etc.
they can't alter this, since it doesn't belong to the rule X, they are "inevitable".
I also have some thoughts on just Hanyuu herself. One of the things that I've wondered is if Hanyuu is tied to the Hinamizawa. I would think that, over the hundreds of years of elapsed time in which Hanyuu and Rika are trying to create a happy ending, one of them would have gotten the idea of Hanyuu traveling to other parts of Japan, or even other parts of the world, looking for a priest/monk/shaman/guru/whatever that can see her. Maybe Rika is the only person in the entire world who can see Hanyuu, but I think that Hanyuu can't leave Hinamizawa to find out.
What could tie Hanyuu down to Hinamizawa? It could be that her kind are tied to the area where they are "born", but an explanation like that would have no connection to the rest of the story. The only thing that I can think of that would tie her to Hinamizawa is the parasite, and hence the curse. And if Hanyuu has no connection to the parasite, then she is only Oyashiro-sama in the sense that she is a deity like being who resides in Hinamizawa, and Hinamizawa's deity is Oyashiro-sama; from a story-telling point of view, that's rather unsatisfying. One idea I had was that all the parasites in all of the infected villagers constitute her body, and are connected together by some supernatural means; she would see and hear anything that any of the villagers saw or heard. However, this would only mostly tie her down to the village, since people born to the village do leave, like Rena's family. And even ignoring that, there's something about this I don't like that I can't really put my finger on.
Another idea is that the parasites in Rika alone constitute Hanyuu's body. Hanyuu was born when Rika was born, and Hanyuu ages as Rika ages (which would explain why the village's deity is a little girl instead of a grown woman). Rika is the reincarnation of Oyashiro-sama, which is why Hanyuu is Oyashiro-sama. Rika never leaves the village, so Hanyuu is tied to the village (though Hanyuu must be able to project herself at least several kilometers, since Satoko once heard her apologizing, and Rika probably wasn't present at the government/villager damn meeting (Local Project Meeting (Piece #26) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=694297&postcount=3)), but Hanyuu certainly was there). According to Research Note II (Ep. 13) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=601921&postcount=64) in the TIPS:
So the female members of the Furude family are "queen carriers", but no in the way that Takano supposes: every eight generations, the parasites of a girl in the Furude family give rise to a consciousness with supernatural powers, Oyashiro-sama. But what is Oyashiro-sama? When demons invaded from the marshes, Oyashiro-sama came down and made peace between them (can't find a TIPS for this). According to Takano, the parasites have grown weaker over the generations, and the Syndrome only becomes activated due to extreme psychological stress (is there a TIPS for this?) I'm guessing that Takano is wrong: it's not that they've grown weaker over time, but that the parasites have some sort of biological clock that wakes them up every eight generations, and every eight generations an Oyashiro-sama is (re)born with the power to put them back to sleep, hence keeping the peace between humans and the "demons".
From Scrapbook I (Ep 06) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=556819&postcount=28):
The timing of the birth of the eighth generation Furude girl isn't precise, and the timing of the wakening of the parasites might not be precise either. Thus, sometimes the girl is born long before the parasites wake up, and is there in adult form to put them back to sleep the instant they wake up, so that there is no disaster. However, sometimes she is born late, and isn't matured enough to have the power to immediately put them back to sleep, resulting in the villagers going L5 and almost wiping themselves out before Oyashiro-sama grows old enough to have sufficient power to put them to sleep. Thus, Takano's queen theory isn't entirely incorrect: it's not that the death of the queen causes the parasites to wake up, but that the parasites are due to wake up at a certain time, and if the queen isn't alive when that time comes they'll never go back to sleep. This is why research on Rika is the "compass" for Takano's project. In the universes in which the great disaster does not happen, improvements made to C103 after Rika's death enable parasites to put back to sleep without their queen, while the current C103 only makes them drowsy.
This waking-up-every-eight-generations thing reminds me of the seventeen year locust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_year_locust), insect that spends years and years as nymphs underground, and every seventeen years emerge from the ground, turn into adults, and lay eggs for the next generation. Perhaps the parasite waking up is some necessary part of the life cycle (though I'm coming up blank on imagining a biology that would require this), with the paranoia a side effect of that part of the life-cycle. The queen carrier line is there to put them back to sleep, so that they don't wipe out their hosts due to the paranoia side effect. One nice tie-in for this theory is that the seventeen year locust is actually a cicada. However, it's a type of cicada native to the eastern part of North America, and "Higurashi" is a type of cicada that buzzes when it gets dark.
huho, long and nice theory ^^.
humm let's see...
why hanyuu is tied in hinamizawa?
this is hard to determine it, since we don't know how she was "born".
my guess is she didn't even try to find someone who can see her outside hinamizawa : she isn't really a brave character to begin with. so i would assume that she would think "this is useless, no one will see me anyway and even if someone does, it will reject me since i'm not human and i'm ugly" (i'm referring it with TIPS #136 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=690889&postcount=136) )
And, finally, some speculation on what happened to Satoshi. This speculation is based on the anime, which might have changed things or gotten things wrong, so this might be completely off base. Anyways, in the third arc, Keiichi pats Satoko on the head while in the classroom, she has a flashback to Satoshi patting her while smirking evilly, and as a result she panics to a degree which gives her an adrenaline boost that lets her shove Keiichi so hard that he goes flying, then vomits. This struck me as an extreme overreaction to be being abandoned by Satoshi, and thought that maybe Keiichi had started abusing her before she left. Reading the Pieces thread and learning that the Syndrome makes people paranoid, I thought that Satoshi's paranoia could have lead him to believe that Satoko was purposfully being dependant on him so as to frustrate him, and in retaliation he beat her. Then it turns out that Satoko has reached L5 in the past, and most likely killed her own parents. So now I'm thinking that after Satoshi's not-yet-L5 Syndrome led him to beat up Satoko, this triggered her into full L5 and she killed him. Afterwards she repressed the memory of killing her precious Nii-nii (has she also repressed the memory of killing her parents?), and even repressed the memory of Satoshi beating her. Keiichi patting her on the head were starting to bring back those memories, which is why she reacted so violently.
i don't really see his smile as a evil smirk (though his eyes are not visible, which would give this feeling)
in fact, the anime messed up this part of Tatarigoroshi.
according Sushi-Y, there wasn't any satoshi memory when keiichi pats her head.
as soon as he touches her, satoko snapped.
the main difference in the game and anime is : it's too late, she is broken. (i guess Deen made the "good" choice though : the anime watchers wouldn't have enough clue to guess it was already too late. so they put some satoshi memory to justify why she gets crazy like this)
don't think too much about satoshi, he is alive, but his wherabouts aren't shown yet.
After reading the pieces about Takano threatening Jirou after he realizes her true identity, and how she uncharacteristically lost her cool towards Rika's mother (and the actions which immediately followed), I'm starting to wonder if she didn't ultimately (and ironically) develop Hinamizawa Syndrome. >_>
Khym Chanur
2006-11-04, 22:51
but the police investigation is fact : we have another point of view, from ooishi. and this time, we know only what the police have found.
so, the note was really cut, and something is missing behind the clock.
Here's another theory: the police have already found one L5 sufferer, Tomitake, even though he was a corpse when they found him, and the parasites had already broken gone. Keiichi was the second L5 sufferer the police had found, and he was still alive for 24 hours after the police got him. From the two L5 sufferers, the police might have a one in a million chance (or even a one in a billion chance) of figuring out what's going on, but for Takano even that small risk is too much. Leaving the intact note along with marker on the back of the clock would give the police the knowledge of just how delusional Keiichi was, which would increase their chance of figuring out what's truly happening. Taking everything off the back of the clock leaves the police with the one in a million chance of figuring out. But ripping out the middle of the note and taking the marker (while leaving the tape that held the marker, showing that something had been taken) muddies the waters and greatly reduces the already incredibly low chances of the police coming to the right conclusion. Tampering with the evidence reveals that there's somebody out there who's behind what happened to Keiichi (and by extension, what happened to Tomitake, since both of the scratched their throats bloody), but Ooishi already thinks that the Sonozaki family is behind everything, so Takano doesn't give the police any additional hints by revealing that there's some organization that's responsible for Keiichi's death.
we don't know how the scale goes for the Hinamizawa Syndrome
A question about the syndrome scale: for the vast majority of the villagers who are infected with the parasite but have no symptoms, are they L0 or L1? Also, what does the "L" stand for? And while on the subject of letters, what does the "C" of C103 and the "H" of H170 stand for?
i don't think you have to be under L5 for this kind of delusion. (i guess the terminal stage is some crazy behaviour with the killing frenzy. just compare how far keiichi was crazy in onikakushi hen, with rena in tsumihoroboshi hen)
But wasn't Satoko at L5, yet still pretty calm?
Following the comments in the pieces, the queen has just the capability to suppress the "automatic L5 evolution". it wouldn't always prevent any infected people to get crazy, or the very first case they were studying, the sixth dam manager murderer, would already nullify the theory.
I can't remember where this is revealed, but I do remember that, according to the research done by Takano's grandfather, some of the villagers who left the Hinamizawa area developed lower level symptoms of the syndrome, yet when they came back, they almost instantly calmed down once they talked to the current queen carrier. Am I remembering this wrong, or is this a part of the theory that the grandfather discarded? If being in the queen carrier's immediate presence, not merely in the Hinamizawa region, suppresses the syndrome, then Rika wouldn't have prevented the damn manager and the construction workers from developing the syndrome, but would have prevented her mother from doing so.
huho, long and nice theory ^^.
humm let's see...
why hanyuu is tied in hinamizawa?
this is hard to determine it, since we don't know how she was "born".
my guess is she didn't even try to find someone who can see her outside hinamizawa : she isn't really a brave character to begin with. so i would assume that she would think "this is useless, no one will see me anyway and even if someone does, it will reject me since i'm not human and i'm ugly" (i'm referring it with TIPS #136 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=690889&postcount=136) )
Oops! According to TIPS #136, Hanyuu was present at Rika's birth, which completely shoots down my convoluted theory. Wait, my theory could still be somewhat salvaged if a new Oyashiro-sama is born with each eighth generation Furude girl, and Hanyuu was born eight generations ago, when the previous Oyashiro-sama died. Hmmmm, I wonder how much I'm missing about Hanyuu since I haven't played the games and only know about Minagoroshi-hen by reading the translated TIPS. So, some questions about Hanyuu that might have been answered in the game:
Does she have any memories of parents, family, others of her kind, how she got her name, etc?
Is there any indication of how old she is?
Is Rika the only person who has ever been able to see Hanyuu, or was there a previous eighth generation Furude girl who could see her?
Why was Hanyuu present at Rika's birth? Had she heard the story about how the eighth generation Furude girl would be Oyashiro-sama's reincarnation, thought "Wait a minute, I'm Oyashiro-sama, what will happen to me if this child is a girl?", and waited around to see what would happen? Or has she been hanging around the Furude family for generations since the Furude's, being Hanyuu's priests and priestesses, are the closest thing she has to a family? Or both?
Can Hanyuu affect the world in any manner except for talking to Rika and turning back time? I get the impression she can't.
Is Hanyuu incorporeal (can move through solid objects), or does she have a solid body? (If she has a solid body, but can't affect the world in any way, she's incredibly vulnerable, and I can understand why she'd be so cowardly)
Does she need to eat, drink, breath, etc?
Does she know about the Great Disaster? Or, another way of putting it, how long after Rika's death does she wait before rewinding time?
What is she cowardly about? She doesn't always stick around Rika, because she was at Satoko's house at least once, saying "Sorry" over and over again, and she was at the government/village meeting where the Houjo/Sonozaki split happened. The arguments, shouting and threats and the meeting didn't scare her off; would she have fled if it started getting violent?
Are there any hints in the first six games that there might be an invisible entity with which Rika can communicate?
Satoko at least once hears Hanyuu saying "Sorry". Was this because she was starting to suffer from heat stroke from the hot-bath punishment? Because she was suffering from the syndrome? Both?
i don't really see his smile as a evil smirk (though his eyes are not visible, which would give this feeling)
in fact, the anime messed up this part of Tatarigoroshi.
according Sushi-Y, there wasn't any satoshi memory when keiichi pats her head.
as soon as he touches her, satoko snapped.
the main difference in the game and anime is : it's too late, she is broken. (i guess Deen made the "good" choice though : the anime watchers wouldn't have enough clue to guess it was already too late. so they put some satoshi memory to justify why she gets crazy like this)
So in Rika's and Hanyuu's quest to create a happy ending for everyone, they're too late to create a happy ending Satoko, and are reduced to trying to find a least unhappy ending for her instead? That would really suck for Rika. And as a viewer/reader of the series, it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth: I found Satoko's story to be the most pitiable and heart wrenching, yet in the end she has no chance for redemption? Or maybe she can be fixed, but it take years of therapy, years of therapy Satoko won't get if Rika isn't able to create the June 1983 happy ending?
EDIT: And a question about the reboots: with each reboot, the only things that change are whatever leads up to different things happening in June 1983, right? For instance, what happens in London has no bearing on what happens in Hinamizawa, so every last little thing that happens in London happens exactly the same for every reboot, right? Because if, say, random factors caused the people who died in car accidents in London to be different during each reboot, it would be strange that Takano, Tomitake, Irie and all the Watanagashi victims never, ever die in car accidents due to random factors, no matter how many reboots there are.
So, assuming I got that right, the differences between reboots are caused by Rika acting differently. For instance, in different reboots she varies how she plays the game at the toy shop, so sometimes Keiichi wins the doll and sometimes he doesn't, and whenever Keiichi wins the doll he gives it to Rena, resulting in Shion evenutally going crazy and killing everyone (I'm guessing that Rika evneutally figured out that "Keiichi wins doll" -> "Shion going insane", and thereafter insured that Keiichi never won the doll again). However, there are other changes that don't seem to be directly tied to Rika. For instance, in Onikakushi-hen (ep 1-4) Ooishi interviews Keiichi about Tomitake's apparent suicide, but at the start Tsumihoroboshi-hen (ep 22-26) Ooishi interviews Rena instead, and at the end of Tsumihoroboshi-hen he interviews Rika. Does Rika phone in an anonymous tip to the police saying "You should ask X about Tomitake", varying it with each reboot, or is Rika indirectly and unintentionally inlfuencing Ooishi, like through some form of butterfly effect. Or is there someone besides Rika who can behave different during each reboot, independant of how s/he is directly or indirectly influenced by Rika's actions?
L = Level
L5 = Level 5.
Hope that clears up that little detail for you
Klashikari
2006-11-05, 08:48
A question about the syndrome scale: for the vast majority of the villagers who are infected with the parasite but have no symptoms, are they L0 or L1? Also, what does the "L" stand for? And while on the subject of letters, what does the "C" of C103 and the "H" of H170 stand for?
as said earlier : L for level. also, there is no L0 (or the subject is sane). L1 refers as "infected, but no symptoms"
there is no information for the C and H yet. (they are probably generic names)
But wasn't Satoko at L5, yet still pretty calm?that's right, but you can compare how keiichi and Rena's paranoia have grown. at some point, keiichi was having huge delusions without getting its personnal terminal stage (that's also the case for rena).
I can't remember where this is revealed, but I do remember that, according to the research done by Takano's grandfather, some of the villagers who left the Hinamizawa area developed lower level symptoms of the syndrome, yet when they came back, they almost instantly calmed down once they talked to the current queen carrier. Am I remembering this wrong, or is this a part of the theory that the grandfather discarded? If being in the queen carrier's immediate presence, not merely in the Hinamizawa region, suppresses the syndrome, then Rika wouldn't have prevented the damn manager and the construction workers from developing the syndrome, but would have prevented her mother from doing so.the main flaw of this thing is the fact that there is no huge deal with hinamizawa people at Watanagashi-hen and meakashi-hen, so the queen theory is wrong.
the environment could be a factor, but like i said earlier, there are several people who didn't suffer anything from moving away).
thus, it's possible that the cause is the oyashiro belief (it will punish who would try to betray hinamizawa. running away is considered as a sin), or something external from people life (something random etc)
so, returning to hinamizawa could give them a relief feeling, and would suppress some of the symptoms.
Oops! According to TIPS #136, Hanyuu was present at Rika's birth, which completely shoots down my convoluted theory. Wait, my theory could still be somewhat salvaged if a new Oyashiro-sama is born with each eighth generation Furude girl, and Hanyuu was born eight generations ago, when the previous Oyashiro-sama died. Hmmmm, I wonder how much I'm missing about Hanyuu since I haven't played the games and only know about Minagoroshi-hen by reading the translated TIPS. So, some questions about Hanyuu that might have been answered in the game:i will only quote what i can answer ^^;
keep in mind that the following answers might not be accurate/true.
my knowledge is limited to : the anime, manga, the aniesuki translations, the actual minagoroshi translation, and some spoilers scattered around. (i have the game, but since i have no japanese knowledge (patiently waiting for the future patches :heh: ), i just took a quick look to matsuribayashi, without spoilering myself too much XD)
for the general information, until it's said in the game, we don't have any clue about hanyuu past. it appears that she witnessed lots of things from the past etc, nothing really accurate.
Can Hanyuu affect the world in any manner except for talking to Rika and turning back time? I get the impression she can't.
Is Hanyuu incorporeal (can move through solid objects), or does she have a solid body? (If she has a solid body, but can't affect the world in any way, she's incredibly vulnerable, and I can understand why she'd be so cowardly)
Does she need to eat, drink, breath, etc?
Does she know about the Great Disaster? Or, another way of putting it, how long after Rika's death does she wait before rewinding time?
What is she cowardly about? She doesn't always stick around Rika, because she was at Satoko's house at least once, saying "Sorry" over and over again, and she was at the government/village meeting where the Houjo/Sonozaki split happened. The arguments, shouting and threats and the meeting didn't scare her off; would she have fled if it started getting violent?
Are there any hints in the first six games that there might be an invisible entity with which Rika can communicate?
Satoko at least once hears Hanyuu saying "Sorry". Was this because she was starting to suffer from heat stroke from the hot-bath punishment? Because she was suffering from the syndrome? Both?
She can't, except in Matsuribayashi
She doesn't have a body, except in Matsuribayashi
no, she doesn't have any body needs.
According the Minagoroshi Prologue, Frederica Bernkastel, as Rika, asks to us if we know something that differs between Watanagashi/Meakashi with the rest of the worlds, while saying she is rika, so she can't know anything just before and after her death. We can deduce that either Hanyuu didn't stay long after rika died (according the TIPS #136, she almost always stays close to rika), or she didn't really take the Disaster as a clue.
it seems that she is sometimes roaming around, and get really hysteric when she knows that someone else can sense her. She keeps saying "i'm sorry" because she thinks she is the cause of the tragedy / or she couldn't do anything. Her personnality is the main reason why rika didn't use her "ultimate spy" status : she is so pessimist, scared and have a really low self esteem (she keeps saying she is powerless) that rika wouldn't think it would work anyway (though it would be easier if rika sent hanyuu to check what happenned to tomitake and takano) there is however something special said in minagoroshi : when rika presented hanyuu to the reader, she said "only I can see her. or perhaps i should say she lives inside of me".
There are some hints i guess, like the TIPS #123 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=668620&postcount=123). i "assume" that Hanyuu was "officially shown" with Minagoroshi, but again, i'm not sure.
One of the symptoms of the hinamizawa syndrom is to be able to hear hanyuu voice and her footsteps. unfortunately, theses facts just make the victiml paranoia worse...So in Rika's and Hanyuu's quest to create a happy ending for everyone, they're too late to create a happy ending Satoko, and are reduced to trying to find a least unhappy ending for her instead? That would really suck for Rika. And as a viewer/reader of the series, it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth: I found Satoko's story to be the most pitiable and heart wrenching, yet in the end she has no chance for redemption? Or maybe she can be fixed, but it take years of therapy, years of therapy Satoko won't get if Rika isn't able to create the June 1983 happy ending?i think there is no particular need to save satoko's parents for a happy end for satoko.
It's true she wouldn't suffer as much, but there wouldn't have any guarantee that she could live peacefully with her parents, whil in Hinamizawa (the dam project and all.)
the past is the part you can't change. granted, the present can be altered to bring a brighter future. so satoko is not really hopeless.
As you could see in the story, satoko is perfectly fine in most chapters, except when her uncle is back. Despite the dramatic end of Minagoroshi, satoko's case will be fixed (you will probably give more than 1 thumb for keiichi ^^)
EDIT: And a question about the reboots: with each reboot, the only things that change are whatever leads up to different things happening in June 1983, right? For instance, what happens in London has no bearing on what happens in Hinamizawa, so every last little thing that happens in London happens exactly the same for every reboot, right? Because if, say, random factors caused the people who died in car accidents in London to be different during each reboot, it would be strange that Takano, Tomitake, Irie and all the Watanagashi victims never, ever die in car accidents due to random factors, no matter how many reboots there are.We don't know since we have a really small amount of "universes".
If i recall right, rika said that she once tried to survive by herself and she hide in the woods. ironically, this was the time she survived the longest period ever. (i don't remember how many hours...)
so, it is possible that in some stories, there are random accidents. However, as you can see, in hinamizawa, there isn't a lot of possibilities of this.
Also, the more hanyuu and Rika reboot the world, the less they can turn back, so there is absolutely no chance that a random factor "helps" and prevents some tragedy (it would be good if takano died a long time ago in a car accident for exemple, but it would end the tragedy immediatelly so :heh:)
So, assuming I got that right, the differences between reboots are caused by Rika acting differently. For instance, in different reboots she varies how she plays the game at the toy shop, so sometimes Keiichi wins the doll and sometimes he doesn't, and whenever Keiichi wins the doll he gives it to Rena, resulting in Shion evenutally going crazy and killing everyone (I'm guessing that Rika evneutally figured out that "Keiichi wins doll" -> "Shion going insane", and thereafter insured that Keiichi never won the doll again). However, there are other changes that don't seem to be directly tied to Rika. For instance, in Onikakushi-hen (ep 1-4) Ooishi interviews Keiichi about Tomitake's apparent suicide, but at the start Tsumihoroboshi-hen (ep 22-26) Ooishi interviews Rena instead, and at the end of Tsumihoroboshi-hen he interviews Rika. Does Rika phone in an anonymous tip to the police saying "You should ask X about Tomitake", varying it with each reboot, or is Rika indirectly and unintentionally inlfuencing Ooishi, like through some form of butterfly effect. Or is there someone besides Rika who can behave different during each reboot, independant of how s/he is directly or indirectly influenced by Rika's actions?the problem : each different action can lead a different result.
however, the events in hinamizawa can change.
example : rika didn't do anything, but keiichi learns about the hinamizawa serial murders differently (the worse case was he discovered too early while he didn't have a solid trust for his friends, and their denial drive him paranoid).
So, like it is said in the minagoroshi prologue : some events are inevitable, due the "strong will" of certain persons.
Some events happen depending of the previous random and different factors.
Now it seems to me that the "queen theory" IS a fake.;)
But there are still some other questions.
The needled (cake, pie) something in the 1st arc. What was that?
however, the "too much" is really weird... it is also possible that it's ANOTHER delusion (it could be a mistake from the anime too).
Is that about the part when Rena was standing gomenasaing outside with the box?
Klashikari
2006-11-05, 11:12
i said it earlier, but nevermind ^^"
i'm not 100% sure, but it was said that the ohagi was filled with tabasco (or another spicy sauce), which mislead keiichi. (under his extreme paranoia, he sensed a wound, instead of the spicy taste... duh XD)
mion didn't denied that she set a trap when keiichi was yelling at her, but she wouldn't understand why he was saying "blood" etc. (rena didn't know anything about the "wrong ohagi" )
EDIT : i found my source! XD (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=688644&postcount=46) (in lostblue spoiler, Tsumihoroboshi Hen )
Khym Chanur
2006-11-05, 18:29
the main flaw of this thing is the fact that there is no huge deal with hinamizawa people at Watanagashi-hen and meakashi-hen, so the queen theory is wrong.
Ah, sorry, I wasn't being specific enough. I know that the queen theory is wrong, what I was wondering is what Takano and her grandfather believe about the queen theory. Her grandfather noted that if a villager left and started developing symptoms, that the symptoms would go away as soon as s/he talked with the current queen carrier. Is this a part of Takano's theory, or did her grandfather discard this belief from the queen theory before his death?
If i recall right, rika said that she once tried to survive by herself and she hide in the woods. ironically, this was the time she survived the longest period ever. (i don't remember how many hours...)
Has Rika never tried to prevent the first the Watanagashi murder/disappearance? I would think that Rika would think "Maybe if I prevent the first Watanagashi incident, I'll stop all the incidents, and my parents won't become victims, even if it doesn't prevent me from dying", and give it a try in at least one reboot. The the first incident would be the easiest one to both understand and to prevent, and if she (unknowingly) prevented Takano from acquiring the first live L5 test subject, things would go a lot differently, and she'd know that she was onto something, so I guess she never tried; I wonder why. I guess she believes that the Watanagashi incidents are just unconnected coincidences?
the problem : each different action can lead a different result.
however, the events in hinamizawa can change.
example : rika didn't do anything, but keiichi learns about the hinamizawa serial murders differently (the worse case was he discovered too early while he didn't have a solid trust for his friends, and their denial drive him paranoid).
Seemingly unimportant actions that Rika takes could indirectly lead to a series of events that causes important changes down the road. For instance, in one reboot Rika could bump into a woman carrying a shopping bag, causing the bag to drop and a jar to break. The woman has to go back to the grocery store to buy another jar, which causes her to be late for something, which causes A, which causes B, which causes C, and so on, ultimately resulting in Ooishi asking Keiichi about Tomitake, leading to Keiichi going crazy. In other reboots, she doesn't bump into the woman, so Keiichi never learns about that Watanagashi incidents early enough to trigger his syndrome.
And an unimportant question (but I'm curious): one of the Pieces reveals that the syndrome researchers intend to trepan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanation) Rika so that they can get a sample of her cranial fluid. Does the game ever show the hole in Rika's head?
Klashikari
2006-11-06, 12:30
Ah, sorry, I wasn't being specific enough. I know that the queen theory is wrong, what I was wondering is what Takano and her grandfather believe about the queen theory. Her grandfather noted that if a villager left and started developing symptoms, that the symptoms would go away as soon as s/he talked with the current queen carrier. Is this a part of Takano's theory, or did her grandfather discard this belief from the queen theory before his death?
this is difficult to determine how serious both takano believe in this theory (they are mainly focalised on the insane "parasites are the human mind" one).
According the pieces, it appears that Takano believes in it (talking about the queen, though it is to herself). so it is possible it wasn't discarded from late takano. (this is pure speculation)
Has Rika never tried to prevent the first the Watanagashi murder/disappearance? I would think that Rika would think "Maybe if I prevent the first Watanagashi incident, I'll stop all the incidents, and my parents won't become victims, even if it doesn't prevent me from dying", and give it a try in at least one reboot. The the first incident would be the easiest one to both understand and to prevent, and if she (unknowingly) prevented Takano from acquiring the first live L5 test subject, things would go a lot differently, and she'd know that she was onto something, so I guess she never tried; I wonder why. I guess she believes that the Watanagashi incidents are just unconnected coincidences?there is a huge problem with rika : her child status.
At the current time, she isn't really taken seriously, so imagine this situation 4 years before, this would be hard.
also, i don't think rika has the information (when exactly) to prevent it. also, she doesn't have the physical ability to do so. and finally, the villagers wouldn't bother to prevent it : how would be possible for rika to convince any villager to prevent some crazy guys to kill the dam manager, one of the top hated people in hinamizawa?
also, due to her age, i wouldn't possible that ooishi or his men could believe her (there weren't any incident before, and even when every villager has a motive to kill the dam manager, it would be troublesome to believe that, completely out of the blue, and especially from a little girl)
also, we don't know how many years rika could reboot the very first time (although it was said she could come back even before akasaka comes for the first time in hinamizawa) and the time lost between each reboot.
also, like you said : it is possible that rika wouldn't connect all the incidents between them.
1) the first incident happen because of 6 random culprits.
2) for satoko's parents, everything appears to be an accident.
3) Furede Priest is dead by a mysterious illness, the mother is presumbly dead of suicide (how would someone imagine it was covered by the goverment? the police didn't noticed any suspect thing, except the impossibility to name the disease)
so, there is a really small chance for her to understand that even the first murder would permit the others.
Seemingly unimportant actions that Rika takes could indirectly lead to a series of events that causes important changes down the road. For instance, in one reboot Rika could bump into a woman carrying a shopping bag, causing the bag to drop and a jar to break. The woman has to go back to the grocery store to buy another jar, which causes her to be late for something, which causes A, which causes B, which causes C, and so on, ultimately resulting in Ooishi asking Keiichi about Tomitake, leading to Keiichi going crazy. In other reboots, she doesn't bump into the woman, so Keiichi never learns about that Watanagashi incidents early enough to trigger his syndrome.unfortunately, we can theorycraft an infinite time with such parameters.
though, there is facts that are avoided by pure/some luck. i'm referring to KJ post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=36602):
-As luck would have it, Akasaka lives in this world. However, his wife still dies.
3. In Himatsubushi what change happened to prevent Akasaka from dying?
=> Numerous factors, including luck. It isn't clearly stated, except that Rika was able to save him from dying by leading him away from the hospital, and that his chances of survival was very low to begin with.
Satoko's uncle is also a random factor itself : sometimes he comes back to hinamizawa, sometimes he doesn't.
your example is a bit extreme, but realisable. however, what would rika do to prevent keiichi going with rena to the trash site? there isn't a lot involvement from her for such trivial things which lead, impendingly to some paranoia for any people.
in conclusion, acting with such a strict and identical pattern won't always prevent an event X, to happen a Y time, at Z world.
And an unimportant question (but I'm curious): one of the Pieces reveals that the syndrome researchers intend to trepan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanation) Rika so that they can get a sample of her cranial fluid. Does the game ever show the hole in Rika's head?you mean a CG of her who would show rika hospitalized? i don't think so.
you see, the number of different CG are really really poor for each character.
You will NEVER see rena with her trademark cleaver in game. however, just like a novel (wait a min.. it's a novel ! duh :heh: ), it is described very well.
If i recall right, rika said that she once tried to survive by herself and she hide in the woods. ironically, this was the time she survived the longest period ever. (i don't remember how many hours...)
Well, she lived a little bit into July. Quoting from the game:
I'm never going to try and hide in the woods again in order to escape my death from the certain someone. ...I tried it once, and for all the suffering and toils that I did in the woods, I still ended up dead the same way. Living in the woods all by myself is not as easy as it seems. I think I was able to live a little past July that time. ...That was my longest survival record.
And for further interest, Rika's most worst life that she lived through was the one in which Keiichi doesn't come to Hinamizawa. In the past hundred years of her life, there were once or twice in which that happened. According to Rika, those were the most boring days that she had ever lived, and considers that to be a loss from the start.
Klashikari
2006-11-06, 13:45
yes, this was that quote ^^ (i couldn't remember the exact words or the original poster... i tried to search all of sushi's post and yours, but this was really a pain without any solid key search and the huge amount you have done :heh: )
if rika was able to do something so extreme, it would be really huge to know each plan of "survival" she tried in most worlds XD
EDIT : oh yeah, that was also another important reboot information (sheesh, how could i forget that? XD).
rika had a good reasoning here : how would be hinamizawa without THE K? ~~ (even mion would be really boring, depleting her ideas of fun with the long run without the smashing boy around XD)
really, the game gives some small details which can answers a lot... no wonder why people with only anime/manga knowledge are really limited in their brainstorming :heh:
Khym Chanur
2006-11-09, 02:47
there is a huge problem with rika : her child status.
At the current time, she isn't really taken seriously, so imagine this situation 4 years before, this would be hard.
...
also, due to her age, i wouldn't possible that ooishi or his men could believe her
She could have memorized some big news events and when they happen, then make predictions during the next reboot. Like send a letter to someone saying "On [some date] [some politician] will be assassinated. If you want to stay alive, on [this date] you must do [X]." Or she could make predictions to some adult villagers who believes that she's Oyashiro-sama's reincarnation to get him to really believe, then send them out on "holy missions". And if the adults needed money, she could memorize the outcomes of various sporting events, and they could gamble on them to make money.
I guess that she became fatalistic about everything before something like occurred to her.
also, i don't think rika has the information (when exactly) to prevent it.
She could have hid out at the damn site to spy on them and figure out what happened.
and finally, the villagers wouldn't bother to prevent it : how would be possible for rika to convince any villager to prevent some crazy guys to kill the dam manager, one of the top hated people in hinamizawa?
She could have told some villagers, speaking as Oyashiro-sama, to keep the manager away from the dam site on the night of Watanagashi. I'm sure she could have come up with some religion based reason for them to do so without revealing she was doing it to save his life.
also, we don't know how many years rika could reboot the very first time (although it was said she could come back even before akasaka comes for the first time in hinamizawa) and the time lost between each reboot.
This might just be my impression, but in Himatsubushi-hen, when Rika predicts to Akasaka the Watanagashi incidents, plus her own death, she already seems fatalistic and jaded, so my guess is that a significant number of reboots brought her back at least five years.
also, like you said : it is possible that rika wouldn't connect all the incidents between them.
There isn't any reason for her to logically connect them together, but most of the villagers believe that it's due to a curse, and Rika knows firsthand that the supernatural really exists. So I would think that, before she'd rebooted so many times that she'd become fatalistic and jaded, that she'd think "Maybe there is a curse, and if there is a curse, maybe I can stop it by stopping the first incident". Before she became so fatalistic, she must have been brainstorming and coming up with all sorts of outlandish ideas to try to keep both herself and her parents alive. Or maybe she became fatalistic after only a few reboots, and never did any brainstorming.
though, there is facts that are avoided by pure/some luck. i'm referring to KJ post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=36602):
-As luck would have it, Akasaka lives in this world. However, his wife still dies.
3. In Himatsubushi what change happened to prevent Akasaka from dying?
=> Numerous factors, including luck. It isn't clearly stated, except that Rika was able to save him from dying by leading him away from the hospital, and that his chances of survival was very low to begin with.
Huh, I thought that Rika had cut the telephone lines at the hospital and at the phone booth to keep Akasaka in the dark for a little while longer about his wife's death, to put off his heartbreak for a little bit longer. Was he usually assassinated by the Yamainu while he stayed in the hospital or something?
Satoko's uncle is also a random factor itself : sometimes he comes back to hinamizawa, sometimes he doesn't.
I was thinking along the lines of this poem:
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
And also along the lines of the butterfly effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect):
The phrase refers to the idea that a butterfly's wings might create tiny changes in the atmosphere that ultimately cause a tornado to appear (or, for that matter, prevent a tornado from appearing). The flapping wing represents a small change in the initial condition of the system, which causes a chain of events leading to large-scale phenomena. Had the butterfly not flapped its wings, the trajectory of the system might have been vastly different.
My theory is that little things that Rika does differently in each reboot can snowball into much large changes later on, snowballing changes that Rika might not be aware of. The snowballing changes probably wouldn't have much effect outside of the village, but Satoko's uncle does have some connections to the village, so any "horseshoe nails" that Rika changes could be what tips the scales in her uncle deciding whether or not to come back.
And for further interest, Rika's most worst life that she lived through was the one in which Keiichi doesn't come to Hinamizawa.
It could be what tipped the scales with regards to Keiichi's dad's decision to move to Hinamizawa was seeing the two long-haired girls playing in the field, and a "horseshoe nail" Rika sometimes affected would snowball into those girls not playing in the field on that particular day.
you mean a CG of her who would show rika hospitalized? i don't think so.
you see, the number of different CG are really really poor for each character.
You will NEVER see rena with her trademark cleaver in game. however, just like a novel (wait a min.. it's a novel ! duh :heh: ), it is described very well.
Not necessarily her hospitalization, but Keiichi patting her on the head and feeling the hole in her skull underneath her scalp, and then Rika explaining about the trepenation, and maybe evening pulling her hair aside to show were the hole was, or something like that.
New pieces: Piece #15 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=731514&postcount=29), Piece #32 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=731523&postcount=33), Piece #08 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=731601&postcount=36), and Piece #25 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=732890&postcount=37) posted.
Huh, so I guess what decided Takano on instigating the Great Disaster was being told that the village was to be cured of the parasite secretly, without anyone finding out about the greatness of her grandfather. Hmmm, but the Hinamizawa Syndrome was still secret after the Disaster, and if the government had continued its research into developing a bioweapon based on the parasite, the Syndrome and her grandfather's work would still have remained a secret. Had she not had any concrete plans on how the brilliance of her grandfather would be revealed to the world, and once she realized that it would never happen, she finally snapped?
Also, I've been wondering why, in Tsumihoroboshi-hen, the notebook that Takano gave to Rena contained some of the truth (there being a parasite that changed people's behavior), while all of the other notebooks she handed out to other people (and were gathered by the Sonozakis) contained none of the truth. Was she hoping that Rena would give it to the police, so that at least a little bit of the truth her grandfather uncovered would be in the hands of officials, while putting in stuff about aliens and Sonozaki conspiracies into Rena's notebook, and completely ludicrous stuff into the other notebooks, so that the government wouldn't notice that she'd leaked top secret info?
Klashikari
2006-11-09, 11:37
She could have memorized some big news events and when they happen, then make predictions during the next reboot. Like send a letter to someone saying "On [some date] [some politician] will be assassinated. If you want to stay alive, on [this date] you must do [X]." Or she could make predictions to some adult villagers who believes that she's Oyashiro-sama's reincarnation to get him to really believe, then send them out on "holy missions". And if the adults needed money, she could memorize the outcomes of various sporting events, and they could gamble on them to make money.
I guess that she became fatalistic about everything before something like occurred to her.
like said previously, some events don't always happen.
also, it seems there isn't a lot of media available in hinamizawa.
Rika doesn't have few to none important information to begin with.
She could have hid out at the damn site to spy on them and figure out what happened.this is impossible : she is the miko of the village, and the murder happen during the watanagashi festival.
so, she is stuck with the festival.
She could have told some villagers, speaking as Oyashiro-sama, to keep the manager away from the dam site on the night of Watanagashi. I'm sure she could have come up with some religion based reason for them to do so without revealing she was doing it to save his life.this is one of the most obvious actions. however, though she is the symbol of oyashiro-sama reincarnation/messenger, she still isn't taken seriously due her age. also, it is probable that they would simply think she is abusing her position, or she misunderstood oyashiro-sama words. The priest was already taken apart, because of his neutrality.
This might just be my impression, but in Himatsubushi-hen, when Rika predicts to Akasaka the Watanagashi incidents, plus her own death, she already seems fatalistic and jaded, so my guess is that a significant number of reboots brought her back at least five years.we won't really know, she is probably fed up about she couldn't make the adults reasoning correctly (it is assumed that she already tried to settle things between the gosanke and the dam project case, but her efforts with her father were absolutely rejected into oblivion.
There isn't any reason for her to logically connect them together, but most of the villagers believe that it's due to a curse, and Rika knows firsthand that the supernatural really exists. So I would think that, before she'd rebooted so many times that she'd become fatalistic and jaded, that she'd think "Maybe there is a curse, and if there is a curse, maybe I can stop it by stopping the first incident". Before she became so fatalistic, she must have been brainstorming and coming up with all sorts of outlandish ideas to try to keep both herself and her parents alive. Or maybe she became fatalistic after only a few reboots, and never did any brainstorming.i disagree here : she knows perfectly there is a culprit behind most events, though she doesn't really know if each of theses are related or not (some accidents are taken as "accidents" )
since she knows hanyuu, there is no reason why she would think there is a curse, while hanyuu is simply a "ultimate moe-kaii-sweet" spirit, with ONLY the ability to talk, follow, reboot, keeping the memories. so, she knows the curse about oyashiro-sama doesn't exist, since oyashiro-sama itself isn't harmful at all.
so, except if she knows there is something (the pathogen) behind the first incident, there is no reason for her to think there is something behind the murder, or someone is taking the advantage of this incident, with the houjou case.
the only thing she knows : one of her friends will going berserk, and she will die around june 1983 (she doesn't know anything about the disaster, also, she doesn't know the truth behind each previous event, since every incidents are apparently disconnected from each other.)
1) workers are killing the dam manager : no obvious reason at all
2) houjou case : accident (the only witness : satoko, she could have some doubt of satoko, with irie's help)
3) furude case : illness and suicide (she could be suspicious about her father, nothing else)
4) houjou aunt case : satoshi as the killer, vanishing from hinamizawa after his crime.
as you can see, since she doesn't know the cause of the incidents, there is no possibility for her to connect them, except with the "madness" for the 1) 2) and 4).
also, she doesn't know what would be useful for the cultprit for killing rika.
she has really no capital information at all (except the pathogen, that's it.)
Huh, I thought that Rika had cut the telephone lines at the hospital and at the phone booth to keep Akasaka in the dark for a little while longer about his wife's death, to put off his heartbreak for a little bit longer. Was he usually assassinated by the Yamainu while he stayed in the hospital or something?it is possible that the anime showed only the "prevention of akasaka's xadness". it is assumed that there is a very high chance for akasaka to die while he is at the hospital (there is no clue if it was the yamainu or the sonozaki. but it seems it is the yamainu)
I was thinking along the lines of this poem:
And also along the lines of the butterfly effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect):
My theory is that little things that Rika does differently in each reboot can snowball into much large changes later on, snowballing changes that Rika might not be aware of. The snowballing changes probably wouldn't have much effect outside of the village, but Satoko's uncle does have some connections to the village, so any "horseshoe nails" that Rika changes could be what tips the scales in her uncle deciding whether or not to come back.this is going a bit wild with theories, but i really can't see any possibility of "controlling" all theses facts with such trivial unrelated.
sure it could be possible for some abstract theories, but something like a "make your own adventure" story, basing of randomness of the real life, huh...
this should be really huge that rika could prevent anything happening with X/Y/Z actions, since she already experimented enough with her reboot (so if she really has a power around this, she would already control some factors already, wich isn't the case)
Not necessarily her hospitalization, but Keiichi patting her on the head and feeling the hole in her skull underneath her scalp, and then Rika explaining about the trepenation, and maybe evening pulling her hair aside to show were the hole was, or something like that.hum... the trepanation hole shouldn't be really large.
also, they were trying to extract some spinal fluid, so obviously around the back of the skull.
It's already hard to feel such hole with a dense hairy head, but if you add that keiichi pat the top/front head, and the hole is at the back, well...
Huh, so I guess what decided Takano on instigating the Great Disaster was being told that the village was to be cured of the parasite secretly, without anyone finding out about the greatness of her grandfather. Hmmm, but the Hinamizawa Syndrome was still secret after the Disaster, and if the government had continued its research into developing a bioweapon based on the parasite, the Syndrome and her grandfather's work would still have remained a secret. Had she not had any concrete plans on how the brilliance of her grandfather would be revealed to the world, and once she realized that it would never happen, she finally snapped?the hinamizawa syndrome was secret to the public, true.
but not for the government. Takano wants to eradicate the village as a measure taken seriously by the goverment (the "god" thing).
She wanted to reveal her grandfather's greatness by developping the whole mystery behind the syndrome, and also putting forcefully in it the fact the human mind was mainly composed of parasites. (so, she needed data about the syndrome etc)
but as you could read in the recent tips, the alphabet project was aborted, except the "cure" part of the initial project.
So she wouldn't be able to provide an excellent bioweapon since the government isn't interested with it anymore.
the only possibility for her, to fulfill all of her objective is to "prove" the theories and deal a huge event in history => the syndrome is totally hazardous => disaster => takano happy.
Also, I've been wondering why, in Tsumihoroboshi-hen, the notebook that Takano gave to Rena contained some of the truth (there being a parasite that changed people's behavior), while all of the other notebooks she handed out to other people (and were gathered by the Sonozakis) contained none of the truth. Was she hoping that Rena would give it to the police, so that at least a little bit of the truth her grandfather uncovered would be in the hands of officials, while putting in stuff about aliens and Sonozaki conspiracies into Rena's notebook, and completely ludicrous stuff into the other notebooks, so that the government wouldn't notice that she'd leaked top secret info?simple : she collected every wild theories, solid or not, to be able to manipulate a "random victim" around rika's party (you can take is as the RULE X). so she has most theories which could trigger the "rule X" victim paranoia. (she didn't need that for keiichi, she use her scrapbook for shion and rena)
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
But in Takano's perspective:
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
Buy a F-22 Raptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22) instead.
Battle won.
You are forgetting that from the start, it's
Takano>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(unscalable wall)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rika and her friends.
Takano has the resources, the money, the political backing, and the brains of a mad scientist versus just a group of kids whose main strength is their friendship. A trivial change is not going to make a big difference. Like Rika said, it takes a miracle to overcome these things that reinforces the Rules X, Y, and Z.
David Johnston
2006-11-10, 06:27
this should be really huge that rika could prevent anything happening with X/Y/Z actions, since she already experimented enough with her reboot (so if she really has a power around this, she would already control some factors already, wich isn't the case)
Oh no, that isn't true. In loop 1 we see her deliberately experiment. After Keeichi grabs the bat she warns him to keep it handy. This tells us something about the loop before the first one we got to see. Keiichi was a murder victim, and he let go of the bat. So at a guess in Loop 0, bumbling irresponsible Oishi still recruits Keiichi to be his spy, but on that occasion, instead of telling Keiichi to keep the bat handy, Rika told K1 why Satoshi freaked. Ashamed, K1 leaves the bat the school, and his escalating paranoia tones down to a dull roar. Therefore he lets Rena in with the supper she made and they talk while eating. Then she says something...about the clinic perhaps? And maybe instead of getting diverted into suspicion of Mion and Rena, he goes out to check out the clinic and gets killed there.
Now some of the variations seem to have been thrown in by Rika just to keep from boredom, like the different games they play at the start. Rika probably suggests them to Mion since she doesn't want to play the same card game every loop. Other changes though, seem to be pure butterfly effects. For example how does Rika taking Satoshi over to cook dinner for K1 lead to the return of the evil uncle?
Oh by the way, there's no real need to explain Hanyu's relative lack of mobility. She's a shinto spirit. She can't leave the village (much) because she's the spirit of the village. Note incidentally that Hanyu is the variable the scientists are oblivious to when they concoct their nonsense about queen strains of viruses. People get calmer when they're around the Furudes because Hanyu's frequently around the Furudes and their shrine and most of Hanyu's energies go into trying to soothe the developing psychoses of her villagers. That's "Oyashiro-sama making peace with the oni" as the story goes.
[QUOTE=
Oh by the way, there's no real need to explain Hanyu's relative lack of mobility. She's a shinto spirit. She can't leave the village (much) because she's the spirit of the village. Note incidentally that Hanyu is the variable the scientists are oblivious to when they concoct their nonsense about queen strains of viruses. People get calmer when they're around the Furudes because Hanyu's frequently around the Furudes and their shrine and most of Hanyu's energies go into trying to soothe the developing psychoses of her villagers. That's "Oyashiro-sama making peace with the oni" as the story goes.[/QUOTE]
hmmm.... then can anyone explain how do Rena heard of the "footstep" when she was paranoid as her parents got divorced? I still cannot figure out if it's Hanyuu's footsteps, how she can travel so far away from the village.
hmmm.... then can anyone explain how do Rena heard of the "footstep" when she was paranoid as her parents got divorced? I still cannot figure out if it's Hanyuu's footsteps, how she can travel so far away from the village.
hmm... I was also thinking about that. That was Hanyuu definitely as we know that Rena even saw her and Hanyuu talked to her.
So it seems Hanyuu can travel that far.:)
David Johnston
2006-11-10, 09:55
hmmm.... then can anyone explain how do Rena heard of the "footstep" when she was paranoid as her parents got divorced? I still cannot figure out if it's Hanyuu's footsteps, how she can travel so far away from the village.
Well I don't think they are. After all, a surviving (for a while) K1 experiences the footstep hallucination after the massacre but Hanyuu wasn't even in his universe by that time, having already rebooted. So I'm inclined to thing the "I'm sorry/I'm sorry" thing is a Hanyuu projection, but the footsteps are just your amplified heartbeat fueling an hallucination. After all, the real Hanyuu isn't exactly inclined to stomp around the way that hallucination does.
However "much" doesn't mean "at all". I'm guessing, purely guessing that Hanyuu can leave for relatively brief periods. She just couldn't spend a lot of time wandering around.
Klashikari
2006-11-10, 10:40
Oh no, that isn't true. In loop 1 we see her deliberately experiment. After Keeichi grabs the bat she warns him to keep it handy. This tells us something about the loop before the first one we got to see. Keiichi was a murder victim, and he let go of the bat. So at a guess in Loop 0, bumbling irresponsible Oishi still recruits Keiichi to be his spy, but on that occasion, instead of telling Keiichi to keep the bat handy, Rika told K1 why Satoshi freaked. Ashamed, K1 leaves the bat the school, and his escalating paranoia tones down to a dull roar. Therefore he lets Rena in with the supper she made and they talk while eating. Then she says something...about the clinic perhaps? And maybe instead of getting diverted into suspicion of Mion and Rena, he goes out to check out the clinic and gets killed there.
which moment are you referring with?
When keiichi grabbed the bat for the first time, satoko just leaves without saying anything, and rika said it was nice to think about his health (meaning some physical exercise) but she asked that he should not lose the bat.
if you are not mistaken, i would say it was also due the paranoia, but i really can't find that part of the first chapter, except if it is a detail only in the game.
also, i meant that "if she could really prevent something while acting a set pattern, it would be already a huge impact, which isn't the case".
although she tried hundreds years of random worlds, she couldn't really foresee what she has to do to prevent X things (she couldn't prevent shion for snapping, so she could only kill herself)
Now some of the variations seem to have been thrown in by Rika just to keep from boredom, like the different games they play at the start. Rika probably suggests them to Mion since she doesn't want to play the same card game every loop. Other changes though, seem to be pure butterfly effects. For example how does Rika taking Satoshi over to cook dinner for K1 lead to the return of the evil uncle?
true, though it seems it's not really often, confirming that the game choice is really random and can be the same twice, or not at all.
Well I don't think they are. After all, a surviving (for a while) K1 experiences the footstep hallucination after the massacre but Hanyuu wasn't even in his universe by that time, having already rebooted. So I'm inclined to thing the "I'm sorry/I'm sorry" thing is a Hanyuu projection, but the footsteps are just your amplified heartbeat fueling an hallucination. After all, the real Hanyuu isn't exactly inclined to stomp around the way that hallucination does.
However "much" doesn't mean "at all". I'm guessing, purely guessing that Hanyuu can leave for relatively brief periods. She just couldn't spend a lot of time wandering around.
we don't know when hanyuu does the reboot.
there is no guarantee hanyuu is rebooting right after rika's death (especially that hanyuu is probably telling things about rika's death in minagoroshi, for matsuribayashi)
so this isn't really possible to explain each paranoid symptoms, since some can be completely false, or others are facts that are misinterpreted.
David Johnston
2006-11-11, 23:42
which moment are you referring with?
When keiichi grabbed the bat for the first time, satoko just leaves without saying anything, and rika said it was nice to think about his health (meaning some physical exercise) but she asked that he should not lose the bat.
Yeah. I think in loop "0", the one before the start of the series, she told him why Satoko was upset instead.
David Johnston
2006-11-13, 00:52
After reading the Reina clue it seems apparent that Hanyuu can be where-ever one of the villagers are, but she's more powerful close to home.
theacefrehley
2006-11-13, 22:17
Well, after pieces #03, #26 and #39,
I think by now all these "I'm sorry, I'm sorry!" from Hanyuu are kind of clear (well, maybe not). I think:
The Furudes have the power to keep the syndrome under control due to Hanyuu's presence (In fact it's all Hanyuus doing, but since she's always with the Furudes...). However due the extreme stress due to the dam war (or maybe some kind of weakening of her powers) her powers are not being enough to keep the situation in peace. She feels guilty for it and says:
"I'm sorry, I'm sorry! [I'm sorry for not being able to save you. My powers are not enough at the moment.]
It also explains why the whole village doesn't go crazy because of Rika's death, and the Queen theory not being so accurate.
Khym Chanur
2006-11-14, 23:24
To replace that sacrifice role with something not human, that's the Misogi.
The thing that caused a dramatic change in the Japanese culture, which has always believed that a sacrifice would have to be killed, the Misogi.
Anyone know what Rena is reffering to? If anyone has any links describing this aspect of old/ancient Japanese culture, that would be especially appreciated.
David Johnston
2006-11-15, 00:32
Anyone know what Rena is reffering to? If anyone has any links describing this aspect of old/ancient Japanese culture, that would be especially appreciated.
I know what "misogi" is. That is the Shinto practice of ritual self purification through washing, originally in a river, although these days they have bowls at the temple. Rena is thinking, I believe, that the practise of human sacrifice was abandoned in the village when Shinto moved in. Obviously they could not continue to practise watanagashi in the old way, because shedding blood and handling intestines in a religious context is basically blasphemous, the Shinto equivalent of pledging your soul to Hell, and not even getting anything in return. So instead the village started disemboweling things that didn't have blood (and hence wouldn't taint them) and putting them into the river, for "cleansing".
Here's a somewhat but not very relevant link:
http://cameraslens.com/stranglingritual.php
But the interesting part is that after the Great Disaster, the survivors of Hinamazawa go to ground, try to hide their background because the publication of one of Takaru's scrapbooks with all that juicy stuff about disembowelment and ritual cannibalism makes other people regard them basically as burakamin
Here's another semirelevant link:
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=477694
Khym Chanur
2006-11-15, 00:46
Rena is thinking, I believe, that the practise of human sacrifice was abandoned in the village when Shinto moved in.
But isn't "Watanagashi = human sacrifice" a theory of Takano's, a theory that she doesn't start sharing until later? Also, Rena talks about misogi changing Japanese culture in general, not Hinamizawa culture in particular.
Klashikari
2006-11-15, 01:05
But isn't "Watanagashi = human sacrifice" a theory of Takano's, a theory that she doesn't start sharing until later? Also, Rena talks about misogi changing Japanese culture in general, not Hinamizawa culture in particular.
no, it is not a "theory" : the Onigufchi village was practicing "human sacrifice", the "true watanagashi".
now, the "current" watanagashi is the same as david johson described : people are filling their filith and sins in the coton, representing a symbol of "absorbing" their bad deeds.
Rena is concerned about the change of the misogi : in fact, people tought the misogi should be killed, in order to cleanse the filith (you know, if the "container" dies, the "contents" will dies as well).
Now, they consider that the filith taken by the "non living misogi" is now enough
Khym Chanur
2006-11-15, 01:20
no, it is not a "theory" : the Onigufchi village was practicing "human sacrifice", the "true watanagashi".
So the fact that Watanagashi used to be human sacrifice is common knowledge among the villagers, including someone like Rena who just moved back and doesn't really remember her childhood there?
Rena is concerned about the change of the misogi : in fact, people tought the misogi should be killed, in order to cleanse the filith (you know, if the "container" dies, the "contents" will dies as well).
Now, they consider that the filith taken by the "non living misogi" is now enough
I understood that part. I'm wondering how Japanese culture/religion was different before the concept of non-living misogi came about.
Klashikari
2006-11-15, 01:24
i guess not : it appears that rena was just thinking "too much" about the misogi.
back about her condition, she considered herself filthy, and she should die.
however, due the "oyashiro-sama apologizes and curse", she is a bit "relieved".
with that extent, she was just thinking about the "coton purification" and linked her condition with the watanagashi ritual.
She then understood that "killing" someone filthy is not really the best logical response to all this matter.
so, i guess she simply doesn't know anything about the ancient ritual.
i may be wrong though :heh:
David Johnston
2006-11-15, 05:32
So the fact that Watanagashi used to be human sacrifice is common knowledge among the villagers, including someone like Rena who just moved back and doesn't really remember her childhood there?
I understood that part. I'm wondering how Japanese culture/religion was different before the concept of non-living misogi came about.
Well Rena's crazy of course at that moment, and she comes from a fictional village who practised human sacrifice in a way that never really happened in Japan. It's based in nothing but "what would be most horrifying to someone raised in Shinto". The actual folktales suggest there was a period when human sacrifice by means of drowning or being used as building foundation was sometimes engaged in but before that, nothing at all because the Japanese didn't have writing that far back. Archaeology has never discovered any evidence of major human sacrifice as has been discovered in China.
However, as far as Rena goes, it is indeed common knowledge that Oyashiro-sama "claims sacrifices" when offended. Everyone seems to know it, young children included. Almost nobody local is surprised to learn that people are disappearing during Watanagashi. They just hope that Oyashiro-sama or his irritable followers will calm down.
Klashikari
2006-11-20, 14:33
i will precede KJ for the new piece announcement ^^
one thing to say : the tsundere revelation about oryou is simply huge... rather hard to prevent myself from some smiling while reading this (dear sushi-y and KJ... you win a cookie with your half joke comment about her a while back :heh: )
anyway, i guess this piece is really important, proving that the Rule Z is NOT almighty, and with some patience, can be broken (keiichi, you are too perfect... sheesh ~~)
Pieces #34 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=745434&postcount=41), #33 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=745867&postcount=42) and #36 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=746841&postcount=43) are up.
theacefrehley
2006-11-22, 11:54
what the heck....
Now Keiichi also sees Hanyuu...
Will it be explained anytime?
Or maybe Hanyuu can show herself to anyone she wants (well, probably not) and just do it with some people she wants to
Another thing:
Rika: “Chuckle chuckle. Oh well, I guess that’s why it makes it fun. But still, I would like to see a world where you can smash through that little fate. Will you? Chuckle chuckle chuckle. You’re gonna teach us how to do that, you know? Like the time you did in that one world out of all the hopeless ones.”
I'm assuming that this "world" is Tsumihoroboshi (when Keiichi defeated rule X and saved Rena) or maybe Minagoroshi with something I don't know. It's said that Hanyuu's powers are only able to return 2 weeks from Watanagashi Festival lately.
So, can we assume that Keiichi moves to Hinamizawa just 2 weeks or so before Watanagashi in this world? (Matsuribayashi world)??
I'm totally confused how other people can see Hanyuu too.
David Johnston
2006-11-22, 23:06
what the heck....
Now Keiichi also sees Hanyuu...
Will it be explained anytime?
Or maybe Hanyuu can show herself to anyone she wants (well, probably not) and just do it with some people she wants to
Another thing:
I'm assuming that this "world" is Tsumihoroboshi (when Keiichi defeated rule X and saved Rena) or maybe Minagoroshi with something I don't know. It's said that Hanyuu's powers are only able to return 2 weeks from Watanagashi Festival lately.
So, can we assume that Keiichi moves to Hinamizawa just 2 weeks or so before Watanagashi in this world? (Matsuribayashi world)??
We don't know how much time he had before starting school there, but it's safe to conclude that large chunks of undocumented time do not pass between when we first see him in the first loop and Watanagashi and he basically just went to school on Monday, then spend Tuesday and Wednesday at the funeral, comes back on Thursday, plays his first game as a member of the club, and gets his first "punishment". That leaves 10 days wiggle room. In the last loop Rena and Hanyuu together warn him about Satoko's barrage of jokes on Monday on the weekend. Now I don't know when Hanyuu arrives as an "exchange student", but it could have happened as early as the previous Monday, still allowing time for Keichi's first week of school followed by Watanagashi on maybe Sunday or Monday.
Of course that isn't a lot of time for Keichi to become BFF's with the girls to the point where he'll hide bodies for them, but Keichi is numbered among the borderline insane of the group. Above anything else he's desperately lonely.
By the way, was the funeral for the girl he shot?
Klashikari
2006-11-23, 12:25
@David johnston : you still refer some stories/chapters as "loop", could you be a bit less vague please ~~? (source, like wich part of which chapter game etc)
also... funeral? now it makes sense why keiichi had to leave for 2 days at each chapter, but where did you see that?
__________________
back to the thread :
it is possible that hanyuu just became completely overloaded by some burning will, just like Rika did in Tsumihoroboshi-hen and Minagoroshi-hen.
after all these years, she kept saying it's hopeless etc. it would be possible that she could create a miracle by herself, reset back with a fair amount of time (though it would be like her last shot) and being able to be materialized?
after all, Rika was damn cheered up somehow, so is Hanyuu.
David Johnston
2006-11-24, 03:25
also... funeral? now it makes sense why keiichi had to leave for 2 days at each chapter, but where did you see that?
It's in the first episode of the anime. Mion sees Keiichi and says "How many years has it been?" Keiichi protests it was only two days and tells her he was attending a funeral.
Note: Apparently Keiichi has been there for a month based on the anime voice-over.
Pieces #35 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=738250&postcount=31) and #16 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=740695&postcount=35) are up.
David Johnston
2006-11-25, 23:47
Ah. Now I see why Satoshi forgave "Mion" for nearly bashing Satoko's head in and even apologised to her.
Also I seem to have missed the piece until now that just said it was a family funeral, so the kid he's shot is OK, apart from the glass eye thing.
Piece #21 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=741024#post741024) is up. Takanon~ (´Д⊂)
#41 is also up. It's almost over~
theacefrehley
2006-11-26, 19:58
:(
man this piece is the most cruel of all:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750963&postcount=55
:D :D
Pieces #43 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750324&postcount=45), #44 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750333&postcount=46), #45 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750355&postcount=47), #46 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750805&postcount=48), #47 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750806&postcount=49), #49 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750854&postcount=51), 50a (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750883&postcount=52), 50b (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750897&postcount=54), and a little excerpt of Matsuribayashi-hen (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750963&postcount=55) are up.
Piece #51 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750889&postcount=53) is up.
Klashikari
2006-11-27, 15:22
Piece #51 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750889&postcount=53) is up.
probably one of the most intense pieces ever, if not, the ONE.
seriously, reading this piece with the original BGMs is horribly catchy (primal_beat_of_horrow is plain stunning with the story prior the big brawl. i was already fan of "assault_operation", now it's simply my bliss :heh: )
kudos for ryukishi-sama for the ridiculous demonstration of Akasaka's strength ^^ (explosions as fists impact... LMAO i was really taken off guard and cracked up. now i understand why Akasaka is ridiculously strong with his "book of karate" in Daybreak :heh: )
again, thanks for your work, the three of you (meh, we shouldn't forget the missing lostblue XD)
David Johnston
2006-11-27, 17:34
So...then. I've been wondering how Akasaka shows up at the end when it isn't plausible that any choice made by any of the children could have caused that. I overlooked the role of divine intervention.
Piece #48 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=750830&postcount=50) is up.
theacefrehley
2006-12-02, 09:22
wow
just 1 piece to go
::twitch:
David Johnston
2006-12-09, 01:13
OK, so what I have left that I don't know is:
Where did Satoshi finally go?
Why did the goon squad kill Tomitake? Or should I say, why did they follow Takano's orders to kill a member of their organisation?
What's the vector for the infection? Did Keiichi get it by drinking the water? Is Ooishi free of infection because he only drinks beer? Or is he infected but just not inclined to stress out? Certainly he's spent enough time there that if it was airborn he couldn't have avoided infection. Did Keiichi contract it from physical contact with the girls? Or from the food he ate at the festival?
Does a level 0 infection increase instinctive clannishness? Or is the village just naturally clannish?
Does the Hinamazawa school have a summer break? If so, when would it start?
Was Oishi deliberately setting Keiichi up to be killed because he figured that Keiichi's little juvenile crimespree meant it was OK to sacrifice his life? Or is he just basically stupid and irresponsible?
Where did Satoshi finally go?
He was "saved" by Irie. After buying the giant teddy bear for Satoko, he phoned up Irie for help, since it was too big for him to carry. It was then that Irie has realized that he is in the terminal stages of L5, based from Satoshi's claim of "I've bashed her (Honjou Aunt)'s head over and over...but, she is here and there!" He is held underground of Irie's facility and still being treated as of June 1983.
Why did the goon squad kill Tomitake? Or should I say, why did they follow Takano's orders to kill a member of their organisation?
Well first of all, Yamainu is works for Takano to begin with. That's one of her powers recieved from Koizumi. Tomitake declined to join in on Takano's "Operation Termination", and was thus disposed of.
Was Oishi deliberately setting Keiichi up to be killed because he figured that Keiichi's little juvenile crimespree meant it was OK to sacrifice his life? Or is he just basically stupid and irresponsible?
From the fact that he cousults different club members in different chapters, most likely no. In Onikakushi-hen, he ask Keiichi to be his spy beucase he thinks that he can grasp the idea better as a newcomer of the village. Little does he know that, he's just feeding on Rule X that way. Ooishi isn't stupid or irresponsible, he's just mislead. He was determined to solve the mystery before his retirment, and has his eyes on the Sonozaki family since the first murder.
The two EX TIPS Onigari-no-ryuou (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=766743&postcount=148) and Hanyu's reflection on her past? (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=766752&postcount=149) have been posted.
Now just one more pieces remain.
theacefrehley
2006-12-13, 07:49
What is an EX TIP?
Whre does it come from?
Anyway
Pretty interesting. I kinda of suspected something like that for Hanyuu, except for the history of the matricide, of course.
What is a EX TIP?
Whre does it come from?
Anyway
Pretty interesting. I kinda of suspected something like that for Hanyuu, except for the history of the matricide, of course.
The EX TIP comes out only when you finish the game in its entireity. As for the very last one, that really isn't a TIP, it's an excerpt from Matsuribayashi-hen.
purple_mo
2006-12-20, 15:37
Hey, I've just noticed the Putting the Pieces Together thread has been locked out. How many posts do you need to have to get back into that thread?
theacefrehley
2006-12-20, 15:43
Why these topics vanished?
Is it because of the second season coming on summer?
the only thing that was left was 1 single piece
anyway, good thing I copied it hehe
Klashikari
2006-12-20, 15:49
For those who don't know, someone was pointing the fact that KJ took an article about eroge (the one in otaku lingo) and translated it without permission of the original author.
so, while it was only some sort of fan translation, this was probably taken as plagiarizing.
the topic is here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=40471)
thus, KJ decided to remove everything he has done so far about fan translation.
it is his decision to do so. now, i feel it's a waste and i don't think it should bother him with such scale for only 1 clueless people about a great translation work, without pretending everything was by him. but then again, it is his choice.
but meh, don't pay to much attention to my opinion though.
PS : feel free to delete my post, i would understand (kinda off topic and i shouldn't say anything)
purple_mo
2006-12-20, 17:58
Well, I don't want to push this further, but I guess my question to that would be, isn't all fansubs plagiarizing then? It's translation of intellectual property without consent of the creator, so all fansubs would be in that case.
Well, anyways, that sucks. I was enjoying reading it since I wanted to know about Matsuribayashi. I feel dumb now that I did not read all the translated ones past that last one on page 2 because I wanted to read in order.
the topic is here
Huh?
It says I don't have permission to enter. What's up?
Added:
And what are you talking about? I can see the "PtPT"-thread where it allways was...
Klashikari
2006-12-21, 10:45
Huh?
It says I don't have permission to enter. What's up?
Added:
And what are you talking about? I can see the "PtPT"-thread where it allways was...
hah, don't think too much about this :heh:, KJ restored the threads. (anyway, the content of the thread i linked isn't really that important, i summirzed it above, and it was deleted, since the case is closed)
The last of the untranslated pieces, Piece #40 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=742250&postcount=40) is up.
That closes that thread as the translation is 100% done. Otsukaresama-.
aliensporebomb
2006-12-21, 16:30
Fantastic conclusion but it raises more questions than it answers!
This series is a riddle wrapped inside an enigma gift wrapped in puzzles.
theacefrehley
2006-12-21, 22:31
Well
End of the line. last piece... :(
It was good while it lasted...
I think this last one was one of the best pieces. It even makes you feel a bit of sympahthy for Takano, and this woman she talked to seems too weird.... I have a bad feeling she will just make use of Takano for her own interests, but that's just a guess (or maybe she is even one of the enemies, but that is a bit too much :D)... (goddamit, it just makes want to play it or watch the second season ASAP heheh)
Maybe that content we saw in this piece is what the line "Even she (Takano) needs salvation" on one of the MAD's was about... :(
Anyway. A big "Thank You!!" to you guys for translating it for us. kj1980, Sushi-Y and LostBlue, you were great. I really appreciated and I believe many people enjoyed reading it as much as I did. It was not in vain.
[]'s
I found a bunch of typos and weird sentences after reading it over again (I was in a hurry when I finished so I didn't proofread). But oh well, the same could be said for all my pieces, hopefully they're not too distracting. ^^;
Just to put this "puzzle game" into perspective with the rest of the game. The puzzle game was inserted into Matsuribayashi-hen midgame, after a long prologue featuring Takano's entire childhood, before the story shifted back to "present time" (one week before Watanagashi), with Takano getting ready to make her move, while Rika was just "returning" from her last retry in Minagoroshi-hen. Most of you probably noticed many references to Takano's childhood in the pieces, but no actual coverage of it. This is the reason why.
The purpose of the puzzle game was for the player to string together the scattered pieces in chronological order, in order to understand the true backgrounds of all the "game pieces" (that is, characters) within the game. The story cannot continue on until all the pieces have been recovered, because the "game" cannot start until all the facts (rules) and pawns have gathered on the board.
Well, that was the idea anyway. In any case, that's as much as it goes in terms of preparation. All that's left is the actual scenario. Hopefully the new anime season will cover at least that adequately (because we all know there's no chance in hell they'd animate the puzzle pieces :heh: ).
aliensporebomb
2006-12-22, 12:17
I'm hoping they find some way to cover this as well, this particular scenario
seems to be the richest yet - even the background characters have a richly
detailed back-story that seems to go on forever - it's amazing.
7th expansion really has created one heck of a universe.
I ponder the mysterious woman Takano encounters in that last piece:
Anti-Hanyuu? Like an evil Hanyuu type being instead of the one we all
know? They never mentioned horns though.
theacefrehley
2006-12-22, 15:05
Well, that was the idea anyway. In any case, that's as much as it goes in terms of preparation. All that's left is the actual scenario. Hopefully the new anime season will cover at least that adequately (because we all know there's no chance in hell they'd animate the puzzle pieces :heh: ).
Depending of the number of episodes they'll allocate for the second season, Maybe they can cover it (:heh: :heh: :heh: :heh:, like I believe it hehehe )
I ponder the mysterious woman Takano encounters in that last piece:
I thought just the same (!).
I've heard that there's a 52nd piece for Kakeramusubi (not the repeated #50)...anyone knows how to get that?
herculysse
2006-12-29, 09:17
I'm hearing the sound of footsteps.
Possibly all is my syndrome.:p
All chapter titles have double-meaning.
For example, Onikakushi-hen means
Demoning away and Hide the Demon.
But why "Hide the demon"?
Because, demonic truth is in hidden part.
バラバラ殺人の被害者をもう一度よく調べてください。
生きています。
富竹さんの死は未知の薬物によるもの。
証拠の注射器はこれです。
Investigate the victim of the mutilated murder once again.
He's still alive.
The cause of Tomitake-san's death is unknown drug.
This syringe is the evidence.
Yes, It's only K1's deduction.
AND, K1 reached to the true NATURE of Oyashiro-sama.
Think!
It's the first step.
I've heard that there's a 52nd piece for Kakeramusubi (not the repeated #50)...anyone knows how to get that?
Piece #52 is a hidden ending to the game that you can only access by finishing the whole game once, and then going back to the piece puzzle segment and completing it again (for details on how to unlock it in the game, check kj's post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=648713#post648713) the Matsuribayashi-hen thread. Watch for spoilers though).
The piece won't make much sense unless you already know about the entire Matsuribayashi-hen main story first, not to mention being a spoiler as well, so it was left out.
If the anime ever gets to Matsuribayashi-hen, maybe one of us will translate that piece when it's all over.
Is it possible to briefly describe this alt ending (in the spoiler tag) compared to the normal ending? Cos from what I heard the PS2 ending will be the "true ending" that the author had in mind. just want to know if it's related to piece #52 that you all are talking about.
Is it possible to briefly describe this alt ending (in the spoiler tag) compared to the normal ending? Cos from what I heard the PS2 ending will be the "true ending" that the author had in mind. just want to know if it's related to piece #52 that you all are talking about.
Nah. It's really just a short excerpt, and intended just for your own amusement.
Well, it's not much more of an ending. Let me see how best to say it without giving out too much since it is difficult to make sense without playing Matsuribayashi...Oh I know.
Ever wondered how the world would've been IF Adolf Hitler got into the art school in Vienna?
It's kinda like that. It's very short, and it shows one of the possibilities.
Well, we'll just wait until the second season. If they do it, you'll know. If not, we'll see.
Is it possible to briefly describe this alt ending (in the spoiler tag) compared to the normal ending? Cos from what I heard the PS2 ending will be the "true ending" that the author had in mind. just want to know if it's related to piece #52 that you all are talking about.
Well, to hold back on the details...
(Most of the stuff here should be obvious for people who read all the pieces, so hopefully it's not too much of a spoiler)
As most people who read the Matsuribayashi-hen contents already know, the true culprit behind Oyashirosama's curse is Takano.
Takano's life story began when a tragic accident occured while she was only a little girl, which led to a chain of events that eventually led her to Takano Hifumi. From there on, Takano grew up under the influence of her "grandfather" and the research of Hinamizawa Syndrome. Finally, certain events that occured while she lived with Takano Hifumi (touched upon in the pieces) led to her decision to continue after her grandfather's steps.
While Matsuribayashi-hen provided a truly epic ending to the story, there were still some sacrifices that had to be made.
Piece #52 provided us with a "what if" scenario that bypassed all that, look at kj's hint above, and you should be able to figure out what the piece is about.
On the other hand, if piece 52 was true, then the entire story of "Higurashi no Naku Koroni" wouldn't have existed either, so it's up to the individual readers on how they want to look at this "ending".
As for the PS2 final chapter, Miotsukushi-hen, I haven't heard anything about it being the "true ending" (with the way Minagoroshi-hen played out, I doubt you can get any "truer" of an ending than Matsuribayashi-hen though). It's true that it will be an "alternate" ending to Matsuribayashi-hen, but whether or not Miotsukushi is "truer"... well, we'll find out when the game is released on 1/28.
theacefrehley
2006-12-30, 06:21
As for the PS2 final chapter, Miotsukushi-hen, I haven't heard anything about it being the "true ending" (with the way Minagoroshi-hen played out, I doubt you can get any "truer" of an ending than Matsuribayashi-hen though). It's true that it will be an "alternate" ending to Matsuribayashi-hen, but whether or not Miotsukushi is "truer"... well, we'll find out when the game is released on 1/28.
I've read it in some wikipedia around, and maybe they advertised something like that... whatever...
But I wouldn't take it seriously. To me it's more like something to try to grab the interest of people and sell a few more copies hehe
I heard they advertised that thePS2 version will have the "true ending" because some people weren't satisfied with Matsuribayashi-hen's ending, and that Ryukishi07 personally rewritten the whole "ending" again (maybe to suit the PS2 version's playing style?). After all, they all wanted to know what happened past June of 1983, espically according to Matsuribayashi-hen's ending.
Of course, now that Saikoroshi-hen is out, that question is answered.
Okay, I have a question...maybe I missed the connection somewhere, but what was the deal with Satoko's uncle's body dissapearing, and the hole having to be redug? Or is that covered explicitly later in the remaining arcs? I've watched all the eps, read all the TIPS and Pieces, and bought the disc and am playing the fan translations (I know, I should have waited on the Pieces then, but...), but that's the one gap I'm still puzzled over. :uhoh:
Okay, I have a question...maybe I missed the connection somewhere, but what was the deal with Satoko's uncle's body dissapearing, and the hole having to be redug? Or is that covered explicitly later in the remaining arcs? I've watched all the eps, read all the TIPS and Pieces, and bought the disc and am playing the fan translations (I know, I should have waited on the Pieces then, but...), but that's the one gap I'm still puzzled over. :uhoh:
Read between the lines when Rena insists on seeing a receipt, Mion asking Kei to come over later to her house to "read manga," the Hinamizawa credo of helping each other out, and it's pretty obvious.
theacefrehley
2007-01-09, 09:56
Read between the lines when Rena insists on seeing a receipt, Mion asking Kei to come over later to her house to "read manga," the Hinamizawa credo of helping each other out, and it's pretty obvious.
Add to that, besides the treasure hunting thing, "Mion" answering Keiichi phone call the night before of watanagashi.
When he said: "I have things to do and I can't go to the festival, please take Satoko with you". "Mion" said she received a similar call in the past and murmured to herself "Satoshi-kun..."
If you rewatch Meakashi-hen you will see how this phone call proceeded (I'm assuming here some events in the past happen in a similar way in every world)
Then we have one more person involved in it all
Klashikari
2007-01-09, 09:59
and since keiichi asked blatantly a "request" to mion, as the heir of the sonozaki, you can deduce who did this, and how they cover it.
with some extent, it can be linked with Tsumihoroboshi-hen
I have some question regarding Watanagashi-hen/Meakashi-hen.
1. Is the two worlds just 2 similar worlds where everything occured almost the same? Is Shion the killer for both worlds?
2. How was it that "Keiichi not giving the doll to Mion" triggered Shion going on a rampage? I mean, Shion even got the doll from Keiichi becuase he was confused. Watanagashi-hen made me believe that Mion was behind it, since Shion keeps taking advantage of her.
Maybe I should go read Meakashi-hen...but I'm currently slowly reading Himatsubushi-hen...The game just contains so much more info...
Klashikari
2007-01-09, 15:48
I have some question regarding Watanagashi-hen/Meakashi-hen.
1. Is the two worlds just 2 similar worlds where everything occured almost the same? Is Shion the killer for both worlds?
2. How was it that "Keiichi not giving the doll to Mion" triggered Shion going on a rampage? I mean, Shion even got the doll from Keiichi becuase he was confused. Watanagashi-hen made me believe that Mion was behind it, since Shion keeps taking advantage of her.
Maybe I should go read Meakashi-hen...but I'm currently slowly reading Himatsubushi-hen...The game just contains so much more info...
i don't think we need spoiler in this thread, hence, i give my opinion without spoiler tags
1. well, there ARE difference between the 2 chapters (and some mistakes in the original TIPS, right kj? :heh:). however, the similarities are really too much to think that they are different, especially with Rika's comment, in the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen.
So we can consider that Meakashi-hen is indeed Watanagashi-hen, with slight differences due the randomness/butterfly effect of the "worlds" in Higurashi. (i think KJ has the complete explanation about this, i talked to him a while back for some inconsistancies of meakashi-hen TIPS, and Ryukishi gave some explanation of these already)
2. at first, i thought shion said this, in order to prevent herself being recognized by keiichi as "shion" and not "mion".
however, in the anime version of meakashi-hen, Shion said that, after the doll incident mion was sad and depressed. because of her conversation with her, shion, who was able to seal her feelings for satoshi, had some flashback, so, reviving her insanity she had 1 year earlier, after the "nail incident" and satoshi-s disappearance.
while it seems rather cranky, this explanation is plausible.
i won't take these answers as canon, we would definitavely need the novel informations about theses 2.
theacefrehley
2007-01-10, 11:24
1. well, there ARE difference between the 2 chapters (and some mistakes in the original TIPS, right kj? :heh:). however, the similarities are really too much to think that they are different, especially with Rika's comment, in the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen.
So we can consider that Meakashi-hen is indeed Watanagashi-hen, with slight differences due the randomness/butterfly effect of the "worlds" in Higurashi. (i think KJ has the complete explanation about this, i talked to him a while back for some inconsistancies of meakashi-hen TIPS, and Ryukishi gave some explanation of these already)
What are the inconsistencies of Meakashi TIPS?
Are you talking about that stuff of Shion's/Mion's names apparently mistakenly swapped in some TIPS?
Klashikari
2007-01-10, 11:40
no, in fact, 2 tips are conflicting each other.
TIPS #109 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=655789&postcount=109) and TIPS #113 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=656522&postcount=113)
In the TIPS 113, it is stated that rika died the 22nd june.
However, on the police investigation, TIPS 109, it appears that the 21th is the LATEST date possible, because between Rika's death and Keiichi's confrontation against mion, at least 1 day have passed. (like i said in this thread about the 48hours theory here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=715829&postcount=27), more than 48 hours have passed in fact)
The police barged in the 22nd, so the TIPS 113 has a mistake. (if i take my previous post into account, i would say rika died around the 19-20th, if we consider the 22nd as the canon date for the police barging)
If we consider the TIPS 109 as the faulty one, well... TIPS 113 is still helluva broken, since Mion's death on this TIPS is also on the 22nd june, whish is impossible time wise.
according to KJ, Ryukishi made the mistake, and gave a reply about this, when several japanese players discovered that mistake.
He tried to change the difference between Watanagashi and Meakashi (the days in Watanagashi were 18-20, and Meakashi were 19-21) to show that though the two are similar, they are not necessarily equal. However, while he was trying to change the dates, he went overboard and didn't notice the inconsistencies.
Read between the lines when Rena insists on seeing a receipt, Mion asking Kei to come over later to her house to "read manga," the Hinamizawa credo of helping each other out, and it's pretty obvious.
Ah, okay! That was one of my original thoughts, but that damn Takano's dialogue with Keiichi afterwards and some other stuff started making me second guess myself and make it more complicated than it was.
Thanks for clearing that up!
theacefrehley
2007-01-10, 20:24
no, in fact, 2 tips are conflicting each other.
TIPS #109 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=655789&postcount=109) and TIPS #113 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=656522&postcount=113)
In the TIPS 113, it is stated that rika died the 22nd june.
However, on the police investigation, TIPS 109, it appears that the 21th is the LATEST date possible, because between Rika's death and Keiichi's confrontation against mion, at least 1 day have passed. (like i said in this thread about the 48hours theory here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=715829&postcount=27), more than 48 hours have passed in fact)
The police barged in the 22nd, so the TIPS 113 has a mistake. (if i take my previous post into account, i would say rika died around the 19-20th, if we consider the 22nd as the canon date for the police barging)
If we consider the TIPS 109 as the faulty one, well... TIPS 113 is still helluva broken, since Mion's death on this TIPS is also on the 22nd june, whish is impossible time wise.
according to KJ, Ryukishi made the mistake, and gave a reply about this, when several japanese players discovered that mistake.
He tried to change the difference between Watanagashi and Meakashi (the days in Watanagashi were 18-20, and Meakashi were 19-21) to show that though the two are similar, they are not necessarily equal. However, while he was trying to change the dates, he went overboard and didn't notice the inconsistencies.
Man...
What a mess heheehe
And to think everything woul be solved just by changing 22nd to 20th on TIP 113... :)
Maybe it was just a mistyping :)
And it all apply to Satoko's death date too
But her date could have been 21st or maybe 20th, whatever...
Just a side note, seems every person had their hands stanined with blood after all the chapters, all excecpt Mion. Think she's the only one left that hasn't really go L5 in the series. It will be interesting if Ryukishi will make one more question and answer arc for "the real Mion going mad" senario.... it will be interesting.
theacefrehley
2007-01-11, 17:51
Just a side note, seems every person had their hands stanined with blood after all the chapters, all excecpt Mion. Think she's the only one left that hasn't really go L5 in the series. It will be interesting if Ryukishi will make one more question and answer arc for "the real Mion going mad" senario.... it will be interesting.
PS2 port will have a pair of extra scenarios...
maybe it will be in this one...
All right, this is just my speculation, but I've been reading all the "tips" and "pieces" over and over and I don't think anyone has yet voiced the following theory:
1. Everyone afflicted with the special paranoia hears a "peta-peta" of feet following them.
2. Some of them also see figures following them.
3. When Keichi sees a figure following him, it takes him great effort to look, and there's no explicit explanation of what he sees. By contrast, in the anime, when he remembers killing his friends in "another possible universe," he can still talk and hug Mion.
4. Keichi asks about a doppelganger when he visits the doctor and the doctor says it's usually a sign of ill omen. Keichi is wondering, just as Satoshi wondered, if there could be two people of exactly the same appearance.
5. The fictional universe involves something like "quantum mechanics" as evidenced by the poem about Schrodinger's Cat.
6. At least some of the strange apparitions are special quantum-mechanical "shadows." Possibly they are always the shadow of the person who sees them, and possibly they are unfamiliar people -- and if Hanyuu can be seen as a shadow, that could explain some panic.
7. Seeing a quantum shadow might obviously trigger psychological trauma, but because of Schrodinger's Cat, it might also trigger changes to the quantum-mechanical nature of the time loop.
So, yeah, that's my theory on what happened.
David Johnston
2007-02-24, 20:39
I have some question regarding Watanagashi-hen/Meakashi-hen.
1. Is the two worlds just 2 similar worlds where everything occured almost the same? Is Shion the killer for both worlds?
2. How was it that "Keiichi not giving the doll to Mion" triggered Shion going on a rampage? I mean, Shion even got the doll from Keiichi becuase he was confused. Watanagashi-hen made me believe that Mion was behind it, since Shion keeps taking advantage of her.
Maybe I should go read Meakashi-hen...but I'm currently slowly reading Himatsubushi-hen...The game just contains so much more info...
Well it's been a while now.
Keiichi not giving the doll to Mion causes her to go to Shion and share her feelings about Keiichi. On the surface this leads to Shion deciding to screw with the two of them by posing as Mion, both to amuse herself and also to further their relationship by getting Keiichi to think of Mion as a girl and getting Mion to drop her pose of disregard. However subconsciously she's doing it because she's jealous and resentful of her sister for being in love with someone who is a lot like Satoshi, right down to the mannerism of patting girls on the head, while the real Satoshi is apparently dead. This increases Shion's stress level, awakening the syndrome with resulting paranoia that starts everything tumbling down.
It's weird to note that Satoko, Mion/Shion, and Reina all have a certain apology style.
1. Satoko freaks out in the classroom and says "Gomennasai" over and over.
2. Reina is seen in the rain outside Keichi's house, saying "Gomennasai" over and over (assuming it wasn't a quantum shadow from an alternate timeline, or Keichi's hallucination).
3. Mion/Shion is told by her sister that some mercy might be shown if she says "Gomennasai" ten thousand times, so she starts doing it rapidly, sounding much like Satoko.
4. By contrast, the one big time that Keichi apologizes, he does so articulately, explaining that in an alternate timeline he remembers killing his friends, and he hugs Mion. Perhaps this difference in apology styles is what makes Keichi so different. Everyone else doesn't have the courage to look at what sin was committed, but Keichi is willing to admit it, first to himself, and then to others. This breaks through the neurosis of the town and makes Keichi the "fresh wind" that yakuza granny said he would be.
Of course, all of the above is just my speculation based on the anime, which is not the same as the game.
And I want to ask:
Was the person gomenasaing to Keichi under rain in the 1st ark Rena or not (Hanyuu && delusion)?
Question
2007-03-22, 16:26
In Onikakushi, Mion says that she let Oishi live in the past. Whats up with that?
David Johnston
2007-03-22, 23:11
In Onikakushi, Mion says that she let Oishi live in the past. Whats up with that?
Keiichi hallucinated that. When someone has an abrupt and inexplicable change change of mood from threatening to non-threatening, that indicates a switch from hallucination to reality. However she probably did angrily say something about how she didn't do anything about Oishi because he was going to be retiring soon. That something probably involved her politician uncle, not her yakuza uncle.
sezen_atacan
2007-07-17, 18:00
I also have a question for Onikakushi question arc. I am still unconvinced that every crazy moment of Rena is "Keichi's hallucination".... Because didn't Rena also acted funny also in arcs where Keichi is also sane??
The first half of episode 4 seems especially real to me unless the Rena is a complete illusion. The part where Rena shows up in the quiet street showing her injured fingers as well as carrying her weapon. Or was she not carrying a knife at all as some have suggested.
Don't somethings(but not all) look too real to be an illusion to you guys??
Klashikari
2007-07-17, 18:21
1) every "sudden" change of personality is indeed keiichi's hallucination. Rena "acted" funny only when the master is related with the curse, and with the case of Tsumhoroboshi-hen.
2) Hallucination doesn't mean that the event altogether didn't happen. Hallucination can be an event sensed but with additional distorsion due of the desilusional state. for example, Rena was indeed offering a meal for Keiichi, but she never tried acted dark and all. we can safely assume that Rena was worried about keiichi, his paranoia and he doesn't eat very well, she she insisted, but keiichi probably sensed it as a killing intent and all.
As for that Rena in ep4, it can be a complete hallucination, or the real one, but not doing the same thing at all anyway.
3) illusion can look "too" reel. PTSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTSD) isn't a fictional point, it does happen, and people can actually have a twisted perception and possible stimuli can lead to an unexpected reaction.
MrZombie
2007-07-17, 19:16
I'm certain that the "Rena" that showed up with the billhook and laughed insanely was entirely a hallucination on Keiichi's part. If you notice when he wakes up back in his house Rena's in different clothes. I doubt she would have taken the time to chance when she found him knocked out like that.
sezen_atacan
2007-07-18, 17:54
Would is possible that in Tsumihoroboshi-hen the events would still happen even if Teppei and Rina are alive? I know what happened but as soon as the 3rd episode of Tsumihoroboshi-hen starts it feels like a whole new story arc.
Can Teppei and Rina be wiped out so cleanly that not once has anyone noticed that they are at the very least missing? It seems like all of a sudden the scene switches focus on Tomitake and Takano.
In other words from what I see here, if Takano didn't scare Rena with her fairy tales then most likely Rena may actually live with what she has done without going nuts like Shion.
Or maybe I am just not understanding Rena enough? Afterall the last few episodes does kinda feel like fast-forward mode and many members here said that most of Rena's history is cut. How are the scrapbook contents related to Rena's personal problems?
Would is possible that in Tsumihoroboshi-hen the events would still happen even if Teppei and Rina are alive? I know what happened but as soon as the 3rd episode of Tsumihoroboshi-hen starts it feels like a whole new story arc.
Can Teppei and Rina be wiped out so cleanly that not once has anyone noticed that they are at the very least missing? It seems like all of a sudden the scene switches focus on Tomitake and Takano.
In other words from what I see here, if Takano didn't scare Rena with her fairy tales then most likely Rena may actually live with what she has done without going nuts like Shion.
When Rena doesn't kill Rina, she isn't under enough stress to respond to Takano's prodding. Takano starts up by bringing up the subject of the murders to see who twitches. When she finds someone who is sufficiently twitchy, she starts to bring up the subject of the horrible history of Onigafuchi. If they're lured in, then she'll get to know them a little better and once she's figured out which conspiracy theory they are most likely to jump, she'll give the appropriate folder.
sezen_atacan
2007-07-19, 21:57
According to the game thread, it appears that the Japanese Parliament (the one in the game, NOT the real one) is in cahoots with Takano's bio-chem warfare unit somehow?? Also in the Devil's Script, it seems to hold some truth, not all but some.
What I found new to me was that Takano was formerly used as a scientific guinea pig by the right-wing of the Diet and one of the reasons for that was that Takano has some genetic links to the plagued village?? which is why she wants revenge so badly??
If there is that much corruption in the high ranks of the parliament and the ministry of defence, then wouldn't it mean that Takano's defeat in the final arcs is only one mouse eliminated in a den of many?? The prime minister can always order someone else to wipe out the town assuming if he too is in cahoots with Takano.
Basically Takano is used as the "fall-guy" ala "Reichstag fire" incident so that the higher ups in the parliament can still somehow gain emergency powers and history would repeat itself.
So did I get the pieces together properly? There seems to be alot of parts saying that Takano is a victim of government corruption or something. But correct me if I am wrong.
Would is possible that in Tsumihoroboshi-hen the events would still happen even if Teppei and Rina are alive? I know what happened but as soon as the 3rd episode of Tsumihoroboshi-hen starts it feels like a whole new story arc.
Can Teppei and Rina be wiped out so cleanly that not once has anyone noticed that they are at the very least missing? It seems like all of a sudden the scene switches focus on Tomitake and Takano.
In other words from what I see here, if Takano didn't scare Rena with her fairy tales then most likely Rena may actually live with what she has done without going nuts like Shion.
Or maybe I am just not understanding Rena enough? Afterall the last few episodes does kinda feel like fast-forward mode and many members here said that most of Rena's history is cut. How are the scrapbook contents related to Rena's personal problems?
- Can Tsumihoroboshi-hen still occur if Teppei/Rina didn't die?
Intresting point, which really depends on a couple things. Rina and Teppei has always been around. They just don't show up much, hangs around Okinomiya, and usually doesn't cause much trouble for the rest of the cast. In Tsumihoroboshi-hen, Rina approaches Rena's father, which ultimately made her remember about her past. So Rina and Teppei are the victims of Rena remembering her past. The moment Rena killed Rina and Teppei is the point that the tragerdies known as Tsumihoroboshi-hen started. So the answer is, most likely no.
-How can Teppei/Rina died and no one knows?
Well...they are crooks. People don't really care what happens to these bad seeds of society. Obviously some people will know that they have gone missing, such as Rena's father, the Sonozaki Family, or the police.
-About Takano and her theories
Takano likes to tell people about her theories. It's not that she's trying to screw around with anyone with her theories, but she just gets a kick out of scaring people with these occult stories (since she's an occult manic herself). Some people don't care much for her theories, but her theories always seems to have some sort of truth to it when it's exposed to those who are paranoid. Perhaps is when people are already paranoid enough that it's easier for them to believe her stories. So Takano's stories are merely a catalyst to tragedy, just like Oiishi's visit.
According to the game thread, it appears that the Japanese Parliament (the one in the game, NOT the real one) is in cahoots with Takano's bio-chem warfare unit somehow??
Not parliament as a whole, but some very powerful men.
Also in the Devil's Script, it seems to hold some truth, not all but some.
What I found new to me was that Takano was formerly used as a scientific guinea pig by the right-wing of the Diet and one of the reasons for that was that Takano has some genetic links to the plagued village?? which is why she wants revenge so badly??
Where'd you get that from?
If there is that much corruption in the high ranks of the parliament and the ministry of defence, then wouldn't it mean that Takano's defeat in the final arcs is only one mouse eliminated in a den of many?? The prime minister can always order someone else to wipe out the town assuming if he too is in cahoots with Takano.
He has no reason to. The cabal agrees to killing the inhabitants of Hinamazawa because with the death of Doctor Irie and Rika there is no voice to counter Takano's recommendations, and those deaths help convince them there is no hope for a cure for the disease and a real chance that Rika's death will lead to mass insanity which, apart from letting a zombie legion of chainsaw maniacs loose on the nearby town might lead to scrutiny that will reveal that a quasi-governmental agency has been doing biowarfare experiments using a biological weapon more horrific than Ebola. The cabal's original members are all gone, and the successors have lost their interest in deploying Hinamazawa Syndrome on the United States but they don't want what they were originally doing to ever be suspected. They don't even want it suspected that it was known, and kept secret from the public that there was an identified population of thousands of ticking time bombs of homicidal psychosis living among them.
If they keep Irie alive and working on a cure, however, the cabal is content. They don't really want to commit mass murder, after all.
Basically Takano is used as the "fall-guy" ala "Reichstag fire" incident so that the higher ups in the parliament can still somehow gain emergency powers and history would repeat itself.
Um...no. 22 years later, while everyone in the village was dead, there were no "emergency powers"
Klashikari
2007-07-20, 05:25
He has no reason to. The cabal agrees to killing the inhabitants of Hinamazawa because with the death of Doctor Irie and Rika there is no voice to counter Takano's recommendations, and those deaths help convince them there is no hope for a cure for the disease and a real chance that Rika's death will lead to mass insanity which, apart from letting a zombie legion of chainsaw maniacs loose on the nearby town might lead to scrutiny that will reveal that a quasi-governmental agency has been doing biowarfare experiments using a biological weapon more horrific than Ebola. The cabal's original members are all gone, and the successors have lost their interest in deploying Hinamazawa Syndrome on the United States but they don't want what they were originally doing to ever be suspected. They don't even want it suspected that it was known, and kept secret from the public that there was an identified population of thousands of ticking time bombs of homicidal psychosis living among them.
To be more accurate, Irie and Rika deaths not only support that the cure will be harder to apply, but also it triggers her emergency plans, due her own theory which cannot be proved false, exept in Watanagashi and Meakashi : the Queen Theory.
I'm not sure about the "ebola" mention, basically, the dicease was rather an effective bioweapon, since it isn't trackable, nor showing obvious syndroms of a dicease. This research was done more to restore Japan glory after the aftermath of the war, not really as use to attack USA.
As for that matter also, the true initial project was indeed to CURE, the "weapon researchs" were much a "side and secret" project between takano and her clients. Irie and Tomitake are compltely oblivious to her personal agenda so far.
But the realy problem is that the new members are cutting short the budget, since the dicease doesn't seem to be that violent, and the case is really restricted in this area. Suffice to say, they allow an extended time to fix the problem, but it hindered takano's research as to research on the syndrom, as a biological weapon.
sezen_atacan
2007-07-20, 20:24
Actually I read about Takano in the game thread of this forum and the part where people where discussing about the minagorishi-hen chapter.
Unless I have misread, wasn't Takano supposed to be a victim turned villian? Not by the virus but from the people that was once using her.
Unless of course Takano is a character who is based off on old-school RPGs and old-days shounen anime where you have this villan who is evil for no other reason then to just be an evil presence to keep the plot going.
But since Higurashi is about characters with complex difficulty I doubt Takano is one of those "Because she is born evil" characters from old-days RPGs, that would be too simple.
The game thread here also mentions someone by the name of Koizumi who is somehow related to Takano. This guy isn't mentioned in the anime nor in the TIPs of this thread so I don't know who exactly he is, My guess is that Koizumi is a scientist like Takano and that they are reasearching something dangerous.
I don't know how Koizumi passes away which he eventually does. Takano took it really hard. Also at some point the other scientists decide to use Takano as a specimen. Now unless she has absolutley no connection to Hinamazawa then I don't understand why she would have a grudge against that population. My guess is that Takano probably is a decendant from that village who's genetic properties have gained the interest of the right-wing extremists.
I think the specific page of the thread would be here:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26475&page=9
I think that if you also go back a page or two or forward a page or two you will find that Takano was forcefully quarantined in a medical building and was subject to cruel experiments.
Takano's hatred is trully strong, I would like to know where it came from. She doesn't seem to show regret or guilt like the protagonists do. Something other than the village disease must have hit her hard.
Takano's past is shown in Matsuribayashi-hen.
To sum it up, the grand plot that she has planned is all to let the world to acknowledges the achievement of her grandfather (not blood related), that being the Queen Carrier Theory.
She wasn't a specimen or originated from Hinamizawa. When she lost her parents at a young age, she was thrown into a badly ran orphanage, and was subjected to abuse and torture after he attempt to escape failed. However, she did manage to contact Takano Hifumi, who later on resuced her from the orphanage. From then on she helped out Hifumi's research, and was deeply influenced by his philosphies.
The main philosphy that influenced her is that as long as a person's research remains acknowledged by and changed the world, even if the person is dead, he/she is just the same as living on. In other words, that person has became a god.
To be more accurate, Irie and Rika deaths not only support that the cure will be harder to apply, but also it triggers her emergency plans, due her own theory which cannot be proved false, exept in Watanagashi and Meakashi : the Queen Theory.
I'm not sure about the "ebola" mention, basically, the dicease was rather an effective bioweapon, since it isn't trackable, nor showing obvious syndroms of a dicease. This research was done more to restore Japan glory after the aftermath of the war, not really as use to attack USA.
Yes but how would it restore Japanese "glory"? It was fairly clear to me that the original cabal was made up of disgruntled old pharts holding such a grudge over World War II that they revived an old Unit 731-era program.
sezen_atacan
2007-07-21, 23:05
Do we know Takano Miyo's real full name?? If Takano is just an adopted last name and Miyo is a made up name she must have had another name. Maybe forgotten?
Is she a Caucasian? Now don't take it the wrong way guys but at least in the anime she does look a bit different the the rest of the Japanese cast, perhaps thats why she got a lot of prejudice. No offense just examining the possibilities and exploring outside the box........
I don't think we do know Takano's real name. But I doubt that the concept of "caucasian" means anything in a universe where the Houjous are native Japanese and Shion and Mion have naturally green hair.
Takano Miyo's real name is
Tanashi Miyoko
chounokoe
2007-07-22, 13:40
In Tsumihoroboshi-hen, Rina approaches Rena's father, which ultimately made her remember about her past. So Rina and Teppei are the victims of Rena remembering her past. The moment Rena killed Rina and Teppei is the point that the tragerdies known as Tsumihoroboshi-hen started. So the answer is, most likely no.
But isn't the fact that K1 and the gang discovered Rena on the Gomi-yama, while she was dismembering Rina and Te-chan, the real trigger to Tsumihoroboshi-events?
In the Game (at least the PS2 version) and the manga it becomes clear that she coped really well with killing those two, because they were 'villains'. In Rena's twisted view of her life, they were evil beings that deserved being disposed of (well to be honest...who wouldn't agree with her ;) )
But when K1 and the others clearly showed her that she comitted a sin (being scared of her at first, asking her how she could do it, hiding the corpses) and 'A sin is only a sin, when others perceive it as that'.
She was able to cover that feeling of guilt up by her friends helping her, but when Takano approached her the next day, told her about all the parasite-stuff and her Parasitosis kicked back in, she was vulnerable to those theories and was led to believe that her 'unrightful beheaviour' was not caused by her own schizoid behaviour, but by an evil alien presence, to live with her guilt of killing another human being (as which she was now perceiving Rina and Te-chan again).
When then Takano (aka the only person who 'fully understood her') was 'killed', she started to see the 'alien-conspiracy' behind all the events and started to go crazy. She was under pressure because she, too, had been in contact with Oyashiro-sama/the aliens, and she would be disposed of like Takano was.
It became even worse when Oishi told her, that Takano wasn't even alive anymore when she had the conversation with her at the library. This led her to believe that the aliens set up Doppelgangers to cover up their actions, shown by her reaction when she heard the men at the Gomi-yama talked about 'Rena' being seen at the grocery store.
She had to do something to get the upperhand against the 'conspirators' and that's why she took the school hostage to threaten the police to gather evidence about the alien-plot.
Then there are two possible outcomes, either the school blows up and kills K1 and Rena, or K1 is able to pull her out of her paranoia.
Especially the PS2 game strongened my belief that all arcs are happening at the same time, which one is the superior one depends on the actions taken by the people in this world.
This would also explain why Rena broke down and excused to Satoko over and over again in Tatarigoroshi when Satoko went crazy in the school.
She felt guilty over not being quick enough to kill Teppei after she killed Rina.
Because as we know from the TIPs, the death of his mistress (aka Rina) is the reason for him moving back in with Satoko.
It would also explain her schizoid behaviour in Onikakushi, which was maybe not all K1's delusion. She told him that she would understand him and that guilt is made easier if carried by friends (which is the concept which held her above water for a time in Tsumihoroboshi)
Well...this is just my idea of how Higurashi works...I just wanna know if anyone here shares it.
Klashikari
2007-07-22, 14:10
But isn't the fact that K1 and the gang discovered Rena on the Gomi-yama, while she was dismembering Rina and Te-chan, the real trigger to Tsumihoroboshi-events?
Not really. She reaches a high stage of madness, though still conscious of her actions. If she didn't meet keiichi and the rest, we can assume she will have much more stress since she will be alone with that "secret".
In the Game (at least the PS2 version) and the manga it becomes clear that she coped really well with killing those two, because they were 'villains'. In Rena's twisted view of her life, they were evil beings that deserved being disposed of (well to be honest...who wouldn't agree with her ;) )
what i understand here was most likely that she was lying to herself and it wouldn't really last long, with the various element which can make exploding her paranoia.
But when K1 and the others clearly showed her that she comitted a sin (being scared of her at first, asking her how she could do it, hiding the corpses) and 'A sin is only a sin, when others perceive it as that'.
She was able to cover that feeling of guilt up by her friends helping her, but when Takano approached her the next day, told her about all the parasite-stuff and her Parasitosis kicked back in, she was vulnerable to those theories and was led to believe that her 'unrightful beheaviour' was not caused by her own schizoid behaviour, but by an evil alien presence, to live with her guilt of killing another human being (as which she was now perceiving Rina and Te-chan again).
i think her "maggots in her blood" syndrom was already present during her childhood. So the mere mention of parasite etc kick in with her past.
this is the main reason why Rina's case is related with her madness, since the presence of Rina and remarriage just kick rena's past in. with this, you can tell her phobia/paranoia with maggots in her blood get completely twisted with takano teasing her.
When then Takano (aka the only person who 'fully understood her') was 'killed', she started to see the 'alien-conspiracy' behind all the events and started to go crazy. She was under pressure because she, too, had been in contact with Oyashiro-sama/the aliens, and she would be disposed of like Takano was.
yes, most of the time, Takano death trigger her "prey" paranoi. it is not exclusive to Rena, but indeed everyone she got in contact with her theories/scrapbooks.
Especially the PS2 game strongened my belief that all arcs are happening at the same time, which one is the superior one depends on the actions taken by the people in this world.
Well, the problem with the PS2 game is probably the "branch" system. it was required to it would be much more natural and playable. cutting the story in different chapters, much like the original PC VN doesn't make any sense, thus, watering down the purpose of an adaptation.
This would also explain why Rena broke down and excused to Satoko over and over again in Tatarigoroshi when Satoko went crazy in the school.
She felt guilty over not being quick enough to kill Teppei after she killed Rina.
wha...? no really, it isn't like this. Like we can obviously see : Teppei and Rina aren't a permanent factor.
Even if Teppei and Rina are together, that doesn't mean they will target Mister Ryuuguu. However, when Rina is killed, it triggers either Tatarigoroshi / Tsukiotoshi / Minagoroshi, since without Rina, Teppei cannot pimp any money, so he needs to get back home.
but Teppei is absolutely no present all the time, just like Rina, or else, it would be Tatarigoroshi-Tsukiotoshi/Tsumihoroboshi all the time.
Because as we know from the TIPs, the death of his mistress (aka Rina) is the reason for him moving back in with Satoko.
It would also explain her schizoid behaviour in Onikakushi, which was maybe not all K1's delusion. She told him that she would understand him and that guilt is made easier if carried by friends (which is the concept which held her above water for a time in Tsumihoroboshi)
That correct, Rina is the reason why he moves back. that proves pretty much that every chapter cannot have the same setups.
Events aren't only the only thing which can differ, but also some setups. much like why Shion can be already present with Keiichi and friends, and how she meet keiichi, depending of the chapter.
but i don't really see when "Oyashiro-mode" Rena was talking about relieving keiichi from his guilt, but rather inviting to ask him what is bugging him. I would hardly see rena using a cleaver to do so, not to mention how she reacted after mion was beaten up by keiichi.
chounokoe
2007-07-22, 16:42
i think her "maggots in her blood" syndrom was already present during her childhood.
Yes I never wanted to contradict that. I think her Delusional Parasitosis started after the tried-rape during her school-time outside Hinamizawa, she felt dirty and the guilt she felt because of the divorce of her parents added to her weak psychological state. She just managed to supress it after she returned to Hinamizawa, but when Rina made a pass on her father it was getting stronger again and she started lossing her sanity.
Teppei and Rina aren't a permanent factor.
Hmm ok so I think the biggest problem is which medium we see as the really 'true' Higurashi, because in the PS2 version there is a scene, very early in the game, when you go shopping with Rena, that shows that Rina seems to be a certain factor in her life.
This scene occurs, as far as I know, without any real connection to the following arc, so I stay with my theory of them being a permanent factor.
But I think that is also part of finding your own explanation to Higurashi
yes, most of the time, Takano death trigger her "prey" paranoi. it is not exclusive to Rena, but indeed everyone she got in contact with her theories/scrapbooks.
Well this is the problem with Takano, I don't think that she intentionaly chooses one of the gang in each arc and that she always gets the right one who is in a weak emotional state.
Because in Tsumihoroboshi Oishi was able to aquire several of Takanos scrapbooks, some of them from the Sonozaki household, it seemed to me like Takano approaches several people in each arc, but only those who are in a weakened stage show real 'interest' in her theories, while others cast her aside as a random Occult-otaku.
The fact that none of the friends really share something other than their daily life in school with each other they never even get to think about Takanos involvement.
But isn't the fact that K1 and the gang discovered Rena on the Gomi-yama, while she was dismembering Rina and Te-chan, the real trigger to Tsumihoroboshi-events?
In Minagoroshi-hen, it was expressed that "a tragedy should not be adverted by killing another person.". Also whenever one of the club members has to kill someone, that world is considered "lost" to Rika. That was what made me feel that the moment Rena killed Rina and Teppei, Tsumihoroboshi-hen started.
She felt guilty over not being quick enough to kill Teppei after she killed Rina.
There's no edvidence to suggest that if Rena killed Rina, she doesn't kill Teppei after. It just seem quite natural that once Rina's been killed (after approaching Rena's father), that Teppei would show up and try to blackmail Rena's father anyway. When that happens, since Teppei doesn't even move back to Hinamizawa, Satoko isn't affected. The only guilt Rena might have towards Satoko is the disappearance of Satoshi, as they couldn't do anything to help Satoshi/Satoko. Of course, more guilt when Tatarigoroshi/Tsukiotoshi occurs.
Klashikari
2007-07-22, 20:01
Yes I never wanted to contradict that. I think her Delusional Parasitosis started after the tried-rape during her school-time outside Hinamizawa, she felt dirty and the guilt she felt because of the divorce of her parents added to her weak psychological state. She just managed to supress it after she returned to Hinamizawa, but when Rina made a pass on her father it was getting stronger again and she started lossing her sanity.
Well, the syndrom really begun when rena begun to self mutilate. but not really important anyway ^^"
I believe the curse of Oyashiro-sama is just a catalyst but also a "limiter" to her madness. Basically, she put EVERYTHING she thought guilty/filth and the like into Oyashiro-sama. This belief is really peculiar with Rena, since the Curse has 2 effects :
Decreases her own doubts, guilt, misconception, since "everything is because of oyashiro"
Increase her down doubts and paranoia, when anything looks related with the village and the like.
Considering the dicease triggers and a possible "placebo" effect (since she believe she will be forgiven if she returns to hinamizawa), Rena was indeed able to suppress the effects of the syndrom by returning in the village.
It is safe to assume that her "Hauu" behaviour was also another "inhibitor" to her madness, as explained in Tsumihoroboshi.
Hmm ok so I think the biggest problem is which medium we see as the really 'true' Higurashi, because in the PS2 version there is a scene, very early in the game, when you go shopping with Rena, that shows that Rina seems to be a certain factor in her life.
This scene occurs, as far as I know, without any real connection to the following arc, so I stay with my theory of them being a permanent factor.
But I think that is also part of finding your own explanation to Higurashi
The thing is Matsuri game was designed so the world would be coherent, and so, the starting point can lead to anything. So that starting point must have the "basis" events, so it would make sense for the rest.
Considering the lack of evidence in either the PC VN or the manga, it is pretty safe to say that every "trigger" scenes doesn't always ocur in each Chapter, or else, there would be many problems...
Well this is the problem with Takano, I don't think that she intentionaly chooses one of the gang in each arc and that she always gets the right one who is in a weak emotional state.
Because in Tsumihoroboshi Oishi was able to aquire several of Takanos scrapbooks, some of them from the Sonozaki household, it seemed to me like Takano approaches several people in each arc, but only those who are in a weakened stage show real 'interest' in her theories, while others cast her aside as a random Occult-otaku.
The fact that none of the friends really share something other than their daily life in school with each other they never even get to think about Takanos involvement.This is why i put " on "prey" ^^
Of course, she absolutely doesn't focus any specific person per se. The number of scrapbooks, and so, theories is large enough so she can reach/affect a large range of "paranoid subjects".
That said, i believe she somewhat "targets" a specific person when the condition are met (basically, obvious hints that person has a growing paranoia, i.e shion, thinking about the link between the murders and the Gosanke)
Of course, the fact that "madness" only touch Rika's friends might be more than a simple..."coincidence" with her...
First of all, does Takano really wants to wipe Hinamizawa because of personal grudges?
As we know, she does all of these to become a "god"? How the Hinamizawa wiping will make her "god"?
And with the "Queen Carrier Theory" we get this: she want's to get that "queen" virus somehow from Rika. Then she'll become (as she thinks) the "reincarnation of oyashiro-sama" herself. In other word she thinks she will become a "god".
------------------------------
And what organizations do we have?
What is SDF and what is the "Yamainu Organization"?
SDF is merely the Japanese military. Yamainu (wolf) is the codename for the unit assigned to the project. For a while I entertained the theory that Takano did in fact want to replace Rika as the virus "queen"...but the fact is, her actions in the end are inconsistent with it. The Hinamazawans are killed at her urging and there's no point in being the queen without a hive.
It helped when I realised that the cannibalism thing is just one of Takano's lies using the eating of intestines to try to increase Shion's paranoia by freaking her out. Eating people's intestines is after all the closest thing Shinto has to blasphemy, which is why it features so prominently in Claymore. But the torture instruments are just torture instruments from the bad old days when the three families chose some rather harsh ways to keep people in line (or in the case of the Sonozaki, how they still express their displeasure with people who cross them). They are not cooking utensils.
I've heard this "become a god" thing in translation before and I think it would be more accurately be translated in this case as "playing god" in English, to make decisions and take actions which will determine who lives and who dies on a fairly large scale. She kills several thousand people believing that in so doing, she may be saving at least as many others by keeping Hinamazawa from turning back into Onigafuchi.
Incidentally I don't think it's a virus. Assuming I'm right and the vector is the town water supply then viruses don't fit the bill because viruses can only reproduce with the assistance of living cells. They don't float around freely in the water. That's why the diseases associated with water supply contamination tend to be bacterial growths like typhus, cholera and e. coli. Viruses are passed directly from animal to animal and we aren't seeing that here. The disease isn't spreading to people who don't live in Hinamazawa and the person we saw get infected didn't come into physical contact with an animal in the vicinity. Such an intensely localised infection militates in favour of environmental contamination.
I also considered and rejected prions. There was talk about eating people but no actual people-eating in the present going on. Tomitake and Keiichi developed massive cases without eating suspicious meat. Oiichi on the other hand didn't, but I credit that to his preference for coffee and beer.
Lastly I thought about bacteria, but that may not be quite right. I'm sure Japanese has a word for "bacteria" but the word used to describe the infection is always translated as "parasite". What's more, in 1983, they had loads of very effective antibiotics that worked on just about everything bacterial until over-use bred new more intractible strains. But what they didn't have was an antibiotic that would work on malaria, because malaria is not a bacterium. It's a protozoan parasite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoan. There were and are antimalarial drugs, but the course of treatment is long and uncertain even now. Assuming that they modelled HS on malaria, that also explains why Takano wanted to vivisect patients. Malaria operates by setting up an infection reservoir in the liver from which periodically the patient is reinfected. The proposed vivisection could have been with a mind toward locating the specific organ where the infection lies dormant so they could then pursue more targeted treatments.
Klashikari
2007-07-27, 05:33
err... not really useful to quote and answer a post from october heh :heh:
I've heard this "become a god" thing in translation before and I think it would be more accurately be translated in this case as "playing god" in English, to make decisions and take actions which will determine who lives and who dies on a fairly large scale. She kills several thousand people believing that in so doing, she may be saving at least as many others by keeping Hinamazawa from turning back into Onigafuchi.
Considering the letter, there isn't really a clue if Takano Hifumi asked her to do a massacre. I believe he was rather asking her to do a genius stun, so she will be reverred. But Miyo has a rather twisted mind, and associated this with something else... (both carnage, and the "hero" part)
Lastly I thought about bacteria, but that may not be quite right. I'm sure Japanese has a word for "bacteria" but the word used to describe the infection is always translated as "parasite". What's more, in 1983, they had loads of very effective antibiotics that worked on just about everything bacterial until over-use bred new more intractible strains. But what they didn't have was an antibiotic that would work on malaria, because malaria is not a bacterium. It's a protozoan parasite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoan. There were and are antimalarial drugs, but the course of treatment is long and uncertain even now. Assuming that they modelled HS on malaria, that also explains why Takano wanted to vivisect patients. Malaria operates by setting up an infection reservoir in the liver from which periodically the patient is reinfected. The proposed vivisection could have been with a mind toward locating the specific organ where the infection lies dormant so they could then pursue more targeted treatments.
Though the Syndrom is based on some effects really possible to happen in reality, the whole thing is rather a complete fictional point. Thus, we can't really assume if it might be "X", considering that some factors. (the fact the "bacteria" isn't trackable, and can't be found just a few hours after the death of the host)
sezen_atacan
2007-07-28, 23:41
I have a question about Saikoroshi-hen, it is suppose to be an extra arc but the summary for it seems interesting. What "perfect world" did Rika found herself in that makes her go off in a killing rampage(?)
After seeing 2nd series episode-4 today, isn't saikoroshi-hen the type of world Rika seeks? Now why would she want to destroy it? In Saikoroshi-hen. I don't know if this is suppose to be parody/dark-comedy since the other extra arc that came with this package is pure parody.
SeventhHS
2007-07-29, 01:37
After seeing 2nd series episode-4 today, isn't saikoroshi-hen the type of world Rika seeks? Now why would she want to destroy it? In Saikoroshi-hen. I don't know if this is suppose to be parody/dark-comedy since the other extra arc that came with this package is pure parody.
Imagine, like Rika, that you spent a countless number of years trying to save the lives of yourself and friends... suffering in silence, as you put up a facade that isn't you in order to keep everyone happy. Finally, you accomplish your goal. But then, the past changes, and none of that ever happened; your friends no longer needed saving; all your effort was for naught. Moreover, you're just an ordinary person again. No one would possibly believe what you went through. If you want to interact with those you love, you'll have to put up that facade again.
Wouldn't you be a little bummed?
Klashikari
2007-07-30, 12:36
No, i Believe Rika wouldn't mind if after the struggle, everything became a happy ending.
however, what makes her insane is rather the "too happy" part of this world.
Since no character had their "drama", their developments weren't applied thus far.
As far as i could understand, Keiichi isn't there (since he probably didn't got any problem in school and/or didn't go psycho with airsoft gun), Shion and Mion didn't switch their places, Satoko has her niinii and her parents, thus far, Satoko is kinda spoiled, and the like. (IIRC, Rika also wanted to kick satoko's ass)
another player might confirm or not, but i believe Rika wasn't pleased with her friends become goody 2 shoes, without any "mature points" present in their struggling.
Basically the world of Saikoroshi-hen is the best for everyone but Rika.
She isn't priased by everyone in the village, her "annoying" mother is still alive, and was isolated in the class. Most of her classmates, espically Satoko, weren't pleased that she was acting like a spoiled princess and ordering the boys to do things things for her. Also, the village is going to disapper in half a year becuase the dam project actually pushed thru.
I think Rika was displeased with several things in that world:
-Isolation at school
-Her mother
-Satoko
-The fruit of her life-long stuggle is gone
-Lack of Hanyuu's presence
-Club memebers not as mature
-Probably Keiichi's disappearance, 2%
As the story progresses on, Rika was eventually given the chance to overcome the things she doesn't like in this world. She is starting to make friends again in school, starting to like her mother again, and so on. However, when a choice was made available to her to "return" to the Matsuribayashi-hen world...
To add to what Rias said:
Saikoroshi is the world where nothing happened. I repeat, NOTHING HAPPENED.
Dr. Irie did not make a clinic in the village. Since there is no clinic, Takano did not come to the village. Oishi had retired since there is no drive for him to continue the police force with bizarre cases never happening. Tomitake nor Akasaka came to the village either. Satoshi is still there living happily with Satoko. Shion and Mion are friendly towards each other. Keiichi is not present (although this is more due to the story taking place in 1982, but the lack of Hanyuu's presence will make it nearly impossible for him to come to the village). Satoko's and Rika's parents are alive. Since Satoko's parents are alive, Teppei never comes into the picture. The Hojou family were not singled out as the village accepted the dam building project.
Since Satoko never suffered, she never got close to Rika. Since there is no club, Mion, Rena, and Rika are just classmates (the reason for the creation of the club is explained in Matsuribayashi-hen). For some unknown reason, Hanyuu cannot enter this world and could possible disappear which means Rika will loose the person who she grew up with, a person who was family to her and been with her since birth and shared all the memories through all the worlds and years. Even more so, because of the dam project going on just fine, everyone will be separated in the future.
The world is ideal. It is the way things should have happened. In this world, Rika can forget everything. Everything, the past 100+ years of torment, is meaningless in this world.
Rika is given the choice: To forget everything and live in a world that's "perfect," or go back to the world where everything she worked for and finally won has meaning. She is given this choice because she took this for granted. She is given this choice because she doesn't realize what she sacrificed for that victory.
I'll stop there for now since I think what Rika had to sacrifice will make much more sense after Matsuribayashi-hen.
sezen_atacan
2007-08-01, 19:25
So Rika can fight? Doesn't she always fail no matter how much she has tried to jump someone? What plan does Rika have this time? Take on Takano's role and have everyone turn against each other?
So Rika can fight? Doesn't she always fail no matter how much she has tried to jump someone?
Well the only people she's ever fought have had loads of adrenaline pumping through their veins and are hypervigilant. But apart from that you know she helps Satoko set traps.
To add to what Rias said:
Saikoroshi is the world where nothing happened. I repeat, NOTHING HAPPENED.
Dr. Irie did not make a clinic in the village. Since there is no clinic, Takano did not come to the village. Oishi had retired since there is no drive for him to continue the police force with bizarre cases never happening. Tomitake nor Akasaka came to the village either. Satoshi is still there living happily with Satoko. Shion and Mion are friendly towards each other. Keiichi is not present (although this is more due to the story taking place in 1982, but the lack of Hanyuu's presence will make it nearly impossible for him to come to the village). Satoko's and Rika's parents are alive. Since Satoko's parents are alive, Teppei never comes into the picture. The Hojou family were not singled out as the village accepted the dam building project.
Since Satoko never suffered, she never got close to Rika. Since there is no club, Mion, Rena, and Rika are just classmates (the reason for the creation of the club is explained in Matsuribayashi-hen). For some unknown reason, Hanyuu cannot enter this world and could possible disappear which means Rika will loose the person who she grew up with, a person who was family to her and been with her since birth and shared all the memories through all the worlds and years. Even more so, because of the dam project going on just fine, everyone will be separated in the future.
The world is ideal. It is the way things should have happened. In this world, Rika can forget everything. Everything, the past 100+ years of torment, is meaningless in this world.
Rika is given the choice: To forget everything and live in a world that's "perfect," or go back to the world where everything she worked for and finally won has meaning. She is given this choice because she took this for granted. She is given this choice because she doesn't realize what she sacrificed for that victory.
I'll stop there for now since I think what Rika had to sacrifice will make much more sense after Matsuribayashi-hen.
Actually...not quite.
Saikoroshi-hen isn't a world where nothing happened. Rather, it's a world where no one commited any "crime".
Keiichi - Never needed to transfer to Hinamizawa. Recall the reason Keiichi need to transfer was that he couldn't cope with exam pressure and went on a rampage to shoot childrens with an airsoft gun. In this world, he actually overcame the pressure, and is doing quite well at school.
Rena - Parents never divorced, and never moved to Ibaraki. Since her parents are actually getting along just fine, none of that stuff that happened in Ibaraki occured. Furthermore, she actually calls herself by her real name.
Shion/Mion - Never switched during the ceremony. Therefore, they actually don't feel any guilt towards each other and gets along fine. Shion is in the Hinamizawa school, and Mion is in the private school.
Satoko/Satoshi - Since the dam project actually pushed thru, they weren't isolated by the other members of the village. They do face their "new father" problem, but in time actually gets along nicely with him. Thus, there were no need for their aunt/uncle to show up. They also live happily as a family.
Imagine, like Rika, that you spent a countless number of years trying to save the lives of yourself and friends... suffering in silence, as you put up a facade that isn't you in order to keep everyone happy. Finally, you accomplish your goal. But then, the past changes, and none of that ever happened; your friends no longer needed saving; all your effort was for naught. Moreover, you're just an ordinary person again. No one would possibly believe what you went through. If you want to interact with those you love, you'll have to put up that facade again.
Wouldn't you be a little bummed?
I'm wondering how "feeling bummed" would actually cause the loli go on a killing spree, and I doubt how it is even done as Rika doesn't look like somebody physiclaly capable of killing "everyone"
Saikoroshi-hen isn't a world where nothing happened. Rather, it's a world where no one commited any "crime".
That was more or less the way I was going. Although I did forget that Hanyuu did explain what happened to the characters not present. I was recalling incorrectly about the setting in 1982, it was 1983 - oppps.
But either way, I love the message it sent. :)
Streetor
2007-08-06, 02:24
Question about the way things play out.
Why does Rike have to be killed in a certain way for the disaster to occur? Why do they have to kill her in such a ritualistic fasion instead of simply killing her? I know that the disaster doesn't occur when she dies in other ways instead of being watanigashi'd so the disaster doesn't occur then. If the body was found immediately after death, would it still have occured? Could Takano order it, if say, Rika jumped off a cliff and died because she didn't want to wait and the body was found 2 hours later?
I've read the TIPS and everything so feel free to give me a full answer.
Question about the way things play out.
Why does Rike have to be killed in a certain way for the disaster to occur?
I've read the TIPS and everything so feel free to give me a full answer.
It's not that she absolutely has to be killed in a certain way. But if she's killed before that time by someone other than the plumbers, the police will come in, denying the plumbers the chance to take control of the situation. The method of death is simply intended to point the finger of suspicion at Hinamazawa natives.
Question about the way things play out.
Why does Rike have to be killed in a certain way for the disaster to occur? Why do they have to kill her in such a ritualistic fasion instead of simply killing her? I know that the disaster doesn't occur when she dies in other ways instead of being watanigashi'd so the disaster doesn't occur then. If the body was found immediately after death, would it still have occured? Could Takano order it, if say, Rika jumped off a cliff and died because she didn't want to wait and the body was found 2 hours later?
I've read the TIPS and everything so feel free to give me a full answer.
It's not how she dies, but rather the timing of the corpse discovery. Also, it doesn't matter if the police intervene or not. Think about it this way: If the Queen Carrier Theory is indeed correct, would it matter who discovered the corpse? What does the Queen Carrier Theory prove?
Question of my own, insipired by the epsiode 5 thread.
What does Rika mean when she said "everyone will die" in epsiode 4?
The "will die" part is obvious, but who does "everyone" refer to? As we know from Minagoroshi-hen that due to the stance that Hanyuu takes, there's no way for Rika to know about the great disaster. It is also shown in Himatsubushi-hen, from Rika's speech to Akasaka, that "the final death" does refer to Rika herself.
If she meant "everyone" as to every club members...then it's also not too plausible at that stage of time.
Perhaps a production mistake?
sezen_atacan
2007-08-07, 21:14
Um.. I know it would sound funny but.... does the Hinamizawa neuro-disease exist in real life under a different name?? The TIPs section that talks about all the symptoms, delusions, and stuff just coincedently seems to be talked about in regular media and real medical reports too.....
I have no experience in the field of medicine but I don't know such psychosis virus actually exists that causes even the most sane to go insane with only a small push. I guess a vague example would be this one here I guess? => link below
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/off-topic/65891-workmen-spooked-ghostly-goings-during-hospital-demolition.html?highlight=haunted
SeventhHS
2007-08-07, 21:56
Um.. I know it would sound funny but.... does the Hinamizawa neuro-disease exist in real life under a different name?? The TIPs section that talks about all the symptoms, delusions, and stuff just coincedently seems to be talked about in regular media and real medical reports too.....
I highly doubt it, but just for kicks I browsed Wikipedia a bit and found these described as symptoms of general paresis, a complication of syphilis:
It had been considered a psychiatric disorder before and during the nineteenth century, when it was first scientifically identified and discovered to be extremely common, because the patient usually first sought—or was brought for—treatment because of psychotic symptoms of sudden and often dramatic onset.
Ooh.
The diagnosis could be differentiated from other known psychoses by a characteristic abnormality in eye pupil reflexes (Argyll Robertson pupil)
Oh, hey!
and, eventually, the development of muscular reflex abnormalities, seizures
That's Season 1 animation for you.
memory impairment (dementia) and other signs of relatively pervasive neurocerebral deterioration.
Might be responsible for Keiichi's stupidity in the question arcs. :D
Psychosis has also been associated with AIDS, influenza, leprosy, lupus, Lyme disease, malaria, mumps, and various autoimmune disorders. Syphilis is probably the most notorious of its infectious causes, though.
MrZombie
2007-08-09, 20:32
Can someone who's played the games, please confirm whether or not the stupid quarry from Nekogoroshi-hen is ever mentioned in the games?
theacefrehley
2007-08-10, 05:30
Can someone who's played the games, please confirm whether or not the stupid quarry from Nekogoroshi-hen is ever mentioned in the games?
It's mentioned in Matsuribayashi/pieces
sezen_atacan
2007-08-12, 18:46
I have just read the prelude pieces to matsuribayashi, and it appears that midway throught that, Takano is just another mere pawn of a few other politicians.
Say, who is this "unknown-domanatrix" manipulating Takano who was in her "i-give-up" mood in one of those clues?? It seems old-man Koizumi's underlings seems to have other things up their sleeves. How can their be anyone other than Koizumi who knows this much about Takano and her goals which I doubt is ever revealed to anyone??
Reading from what happens in Matsuribayashi-hen, it seems that Takano's plan has turned really soar thanks to Rika and Hanyuu. For the Koizumi faction, it is a disaster now that those who know about their plans are alive and all....
Do the people using Takano and her reasearch material have any other cards to play with?? Or is the Hiniamizawa project pretty much the last stand of the extremists and also the last gamble plan to restore an empire??
I get this feeling that the pissed off guys using Takano might come back for revenge.....sometime after the ending of Matsuribayashi It is Higurashi after all...
Now of course unless even those guys get busted too..... Also if the townsfolk end up revealing the truth at the end of Matusuribaysahi-hen won't the government have hell to pay? No effort is made to silence them huh?
What do you think on this take??
Why does it only rain during the festival in Tatarigoroshi-hen? It's a bit too convenient for Keiichi's plan.
Klashikari
2007-08-12, 20:41
@sezen: these "conspirators" are clearly not numerous, and since the fall of Koizumi faction, you can tell they just use Takano as an opportunity.
There are high chances that after Matsuribayashi, Tomitake and Irie make their reports, and suspicions among the project will be spread, and the true masterminds are either missing, or arrested anyway.
it is nothing really important, it is really beyond the main interest in higurashi ^^
@MarthX: the weather looks not so "almighty" stiff. despite rika's past with various TIPS reflecting she is able to predict how the weather will be (Mom TIPS mainly) i believe it might be just one of the "random factor" in the reset.
not sure if it was really that great for keiichi anyway.
sezen_atacan
2007-08-13, 19:40
Are the Yaiminu (sp?) a coincidential reference to the guys who gassed the trains in 1995?? I don't know if the Higurashi author are trying to make a reference to the real incident in 1995? I think the culprit in real life here also has the same mindset as Takano......... I forgot if it was the same gas...
Because someone mentioned that the Yaiminu guys are hired through black market trade right so they could be anyone including those guys involved in the 1995 train gas attack.
Or perhaps the Yaiminu are a division in the JSDF special forces and not paramilitary?? Is Yaiminu the real name of JSDF commandos?? Are the Yaiminu the U.S. equivalent of Rangers, Navy Seals and other Pentagon special agents with the same skills and training?? At least thats what I heard.......
Just want to know the real affiliation of the Yaiminu, whether its the government or just plain ol terrorists from the black market who quit the military or something like that.
Because the Yaiminu is a special topic spoiling Higurashi big time, I don't know where else to say this without pissing off other members who don't want spoilers.
Are the Yaiminu (sp?) a coincidential reference to the guys who gassed the trains in 1995??
No. Those guys were total amateurs. Akasaka says the guys he ran into in the kidnapping were real pros.
haiz123321
2007-08-16, 09:55
mmm i just finished the series and well, i noticed something.
In every world it actually seems like Rika is going through a parallel universe instead of going back into time.
1. In each time, someone will be the violent demon etc. and it will be one the people in Keiichis' gang
2. There were a few times w/o poison gas deaths but most had the gas from marsh thing so this might mean either it was luck or maybe some things happened to prevent the gas
3. Takano's reseach keeps getting closer and closer to the true meaning of the festival, the deaths and the swamp
4. Rika is the only one that knows whats happening most of the time
5. Keiichi seems to be able to recall what he had done meaning this could help Rika ALOT
6. Everyone died in the end in each time.(By the gas or killed by "demons")
1-6 respectively.
Keiichi, mion, rena and rika.
Mion, shion, satoko, keichi and rika.
Rika and satoko
rika.
Mion, shion, satoko, keichi and rika.
Although the last arc didn't show anyone died but it's obvious cause rika got rebooted again.(See the part where Oishi comes, ask about the 2 dead people)
Any deaths where Rika got watangashied, the whole village died but only twice where it did not happen.
But in 2 of the arcs where the gas didn't come, Keii was alive for a short while but he was away from the village(well both were the same arc so...) But in the last arc he was in the village and alive but rika died and gas came.
My conjuncture would be, if keii leaves the village, rika will not die and she can live past w/e year. Because it was said in the last arc. "Let nobody in, Let nobody out" or something like that in Oyashiro-sama's teachings. Since keii wasn't orginally from Hinamizawa, he might have been the plague bearer, if he left, no poison and whatsoever will occur
I think someone posted this before but still... :P
Klashikari
2007-08-16, 10:06
Haiz, this thread is most likely to answers with brute and "pure" truth some questions rising around, for people who already read clues and stuff (basically, Spoiled people / gamers, etc). that means you will get spoiled hard if you proceed reading over here. just a warning in case...
mmm i just finished the series and well, i noticed something.
In every world it actually seems like Rika is going through a parallel universe instead of going back into time.
It is confirmed she is returning in the time
6. Everyone died in the end in each time.(By the gas or killed by "demons")
1-6 respectively.
Keiichi, mion, rena and rika.
Mion, shion, satoko, keichi and rika.
Rika and satoko
rika.
Mion, shion, satoko, keichi and rika.Not exactly :
Tatarigoroshi : everyone died, except keiichi. but he is deceased the 30th november 1983, after 2 days of fever, and a heart failure
Himatsubushi : everyone died
Although the last arc didn't show anyone died but it's obvious cause rika got rebooted again.(See the part where Oishi comes, ask about the 2 dead people)This is answered in Reunion, first episode of season 2.
Any deaths where Rika got watangashied, the whole village died but only twice where it did not happen.
But in 2 of the arcs where the gas didn't come, Keii was alive for a short while but he was away from the village(well both were the same arc so...) But in the last arc he was in the village and alive but rika died and gas came.Keiichi was also alive in Tatarigoroshi.
My conjuncture would be, if keii leaves the village, rika will not die and she can live past w/e year. Because it was said in the last arc. "Let nobody in, Let nobody out" or something like that in Oyashiro-sama's teachings. Since keii wasn't orginally from Hinamizawa, he might have been the plague bearer, if he left, no poison and whatsoever will occur
I think someone posted this before but still... :PThat's uncorrect.
first, many gruesome incidents happen way before keiichi moved in hinamizawa.
second, it is proved in many arcs that keiichi isn't the source of the events. (tsumihoroboshi is a big factor)
third, in minagoroshi, Rika explained that in some worlds, keiichi doesn't even come in Hinamizawa, and things are much worse, because the lack of his presence for some key events.
Fighter747
2007-08-18, 22:45
This has been bothering me for a while, but I want to ask this:
First, presenting the facts:
1) Hanyuu and Rika, each time they loop back, the amount they have to prepare before Watanagashi grows shorter (years, months, then weeks).
2) With each Hinamizawa that was introduced(as seen in 1st season), different characters went berserk (Keiichi in Onikakushi, Rena in Tsumihoroboshi, etc.)
3) Each Hinamizawa's failed (failed is to equate the death of Rika) timeline will continue, regardless that the gas disaster happened.
4) Hayasaka and Mr. Maebara could only be affected when Rika still had power to start over a couple years earlier before Watanagashi. However, these scenarios eventually failed.
Thus leads to my question:
How is it that in Minagoroshi-hen, each character did NOT go berserk, and characters which had direct contact with Rika were also affected, despite the fact that Rika could only start over only a couple of weeks back? That means that Rika would have already missed the chances to redirect the other character's paths, or lose the ability to change important decisions that take place months or years back.
This has been bothering me for a while, but I want to ask this:
First, presenting the facts:
1) Hanyuu and Rika, each time they loop back, the amount they have to prepare before Watanagashi grows shorter (years, months, then weeks).
2) With each Hinamizawa that was introduced(as seen in 1st season), different characters went berserk (Keiichi in Onikakushi, Rena in Tsumihoroboshi, etc.)
3) Each Hinamizawa's failed (failed is to equate the death of Rika) timeline will continue, regardless that the gas disaster happened.
4) Hayasaka and Mr. Maebara could only be affected when Rika still had power to start over a couple years earlier before Watanagashi. However, these scenarios eventually failed.
Thus leads to my question:
How is it that in Minagoroshi-hen, each character did NOT go berserk, and characters which had direct contact with Rika were also affected, despite the fact that Rika could only start over only a couple of weeks back? That means that Rika would have already missed the chances to redirect the other character's paths, or lose the ability to change important decisions that take place months or years back.
The only answer is that the timeline was getting information from other universes _before_ Rika arrived in it. And so was the previous one. Shion's decision to become Satoko's protector isn't something that just happened yesterday. Her connnection to the little devil is too firm, unshakeable even by the revelation that Shion dreams about murdering her.
This has been bothering me for a while, but I want to ask this:
First, presenting the facts:
1) Hanyuu and Rika, each time they loop back, the amount they have to prepare before Watanagashi grows shorter (years, months, then weeks).
2) With each Hinamizawa that was introduced(as seen in 1st season), different characters went berserk (Keiichi in Onikakushi, Rena in Tsumihoroboshi, etc.)
3) Each Hinamizawa's failed (failed is to equate the death of Rika) timeline will continue, regardless that the gas disaster happened.
4) Hayasaka and Mr. Maebara could only be affected when Rika still had power to start over a couple years earlier before Watanagashi. However, these scenarios eventually failed.
Thus leads to my question:
How is it that in Minagoroshi-hen, each character did NOT go berserk, and characters which had direct contact with Rika were also affected, despite the fact that Rika could only start over only a couple of weeks back? That means that Rika would have already missed the chances to redirect the other character's paths, or lose the ability to change important decisions that take place months or years back.
Luck, and lots of it. In Minagoroshi-hen, the luck is on Rika's side when it comes to the settings of the world. One of the element of luck is some of the characters vaquely recalling things that have happened in other worlds, which Rika calls it "miracle". Of course, recalling isn't enough, as they also have to act accordingly to avoid tragerdy. The obvious way, which they have done, is talking and seeking help from others.
As we can see in most of the arcs, there are always a character that is isolated, then turns paranoid, and eventually leads to tragerdy. That is the basic pattern of Rule X.
Kang Seung Jae
2007-08-23, 23:04
I'm still not sure about Takano's Queen Carrier Theory and the GHD Plan.
As we've seen from Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen, the people of Hinamizawa doesn't go crazy when RIka is killed. However, if you consider the circumstances, Rika's murder is known (meaning that there is no "mystery"), and also, Rika was injected with C130, meaning that the Queen viruses could have been destroyed, losing the influence it had.
Also, we don't actually get info on what exactly happened during the GHD operation. We know the basic outline, but whether the residents started showing signs of insanity, or were perfectly normal, is not know.
So, do you think the Queen carrier theory is correct, or is it a flawed theory that became the excuse to start GHD?
Was Rika injected in Watanagashi-hen?
Kang Seung Jae
2007-08-24, 00:00
Was Rika injected in Watanagashi-hen?
I believe so.
I'm still not sure about Takano's Queen Carrier Theory and the GHD Plan.
As we've seen from Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen, the people of Hinamizawa doesn't go crazy when RIka is killed. However, if you consider the circumstances, Rika's murder is known (meaning that there is no "mystery"), and also, Rika was injected with C130, meaning that the Queen viruses could have been destroyed, losing the influence it had.
Also, we don't actually get info on what exactly happened during the GHD operation. We know the basic outline, but whether the residents started showing signs of insanity, or were perfectly normal, is not know.
So, do you think the Queen carrier theory is correct, or is it a flawed theory that became the excuse to start GHD?
The theory is just plain wrong because it is based on a lack of knowledge of one essential fact, that Oyashiro-Sama is not imaginary. Thus, Rika does indeed have a calming influence on infectees but it has nothing to do with her infection being different from any other infectee. The queen parasite is a pseudo-rational theory to account for a supernatural phenomenon. That being said, without an incarnation of Oyashiro-Sama, the villagers are probably at greater risk of psychosis.
Kang Seung Jae
2007-08-24, 01:54
The theory is just plain wrong because it is based on a lack of knowledge of one essential fact, that Oyashiro-Sama is not imaginary. Thus, Rika does indeed have a calming influence on infectees but it has nothing to do with her infection being different from any other infectee. The queen parasite is a pseudo-rational theory to account for a supernatural phenomenon. That being said, without an incarnation of Oyashiro-Sama, the villagers are probably at greater risk of psychosis.
Okay, so if the Queen Carrier Theory is COMPLETELY wrong, then did Takano activate the backup plan regardless of whether the residents went insane or not?
Okay, so if the Queen Carrier Theory is COMPLETELY wrong, then did Takano activate the backup plan regardless of whether the residents went insane or not?
Of course. The backup plan would hardly have worked if everyone was already paranoid.
sezen_atacan
2007-08-26, 23:15
Just a question regarding the side-arc higurashi daybreak game.
- Those characters seem to be fighting desperatley what is their goal after they get the magmatama? Do to the way certain characters are paired up here I am not 100% sure of their intentions. I don't understand Japanese though.
- Say is there a particular reason why all the adults end up fighting too?
- Does anyone know what characters actually say when you pair them up in the most awkward way as possible in versus mode? What I did was teaming up (Takano & Rika) Vs. (Asakara & Satoko) at the Furade Shrine............ it does sound a bit funny when they win... I wonder what they say...
Klashikari
2007-08-27, 01:00
1) no they don't fight desperately. most of them if no all (aside of Ironclad Cleaver Rena and Ritual Scythe Rika) are fighting for fun. But some paired up, to prevent people to use the megatama (such like Rika+Rena and Chie+Irie)
2) read part 1: some want to take them as curiosity (such like takano), some want to prevent problems (chie mainly, as she experimented irie under this effect). i'm not sure what Ooishi and Akasaka are for, but well
3) yes, they are a lot of "custom" dialogues, depending of the pair. you can easely predict what they say though. there isn't any translation to date.
sezen_atacan
2007-08-27, 15:24
Another question, can someone tell me what the Onisarashi-hen is about? I am interested in this Natsumi Kimiyoshi character. In Daybreak her special moves seems very interesting. I am wondering whats she was yelling about??
What made Natsumi snap in her story? Since we have no Takano or the contaminated marsh anymore. What does she do and what happens afterwards?
MrZombie
2007-08-27, 19:53
The marsh has nothing to do with people being "contaminated". It's in everyone who once live in Hinamizawa. She "snaps" just like everyone else after the gas disaster, as it mentions in the manga there was a series of bizarre murders and suicides involving former residents of Hinamizawa,
The marsh has nothing to do with people being "contaminated". ,
I wouldn't go that far. The marsh does seem to be the most likely source of the parasite. But she was born and infected in the village before the marsh was destroyed, right?
Kang Seung Jae
2007-08-28, 00:44
I wouldn't go that far. The marsh does seem to be the most likely source of the parasite. But she was born and infected in the village before the marsh was destroyed, right?
The "parasite" is a virus that's past on from generation to generation. The marsh has almost nothing to do with the parasite, except that it may be the origin of the orignal disease, and that it's part of the legend.
The "parasite" is a virus that's past on from generation to generation.
Then how did Keichi catch it? And by the way, I've reached the conclusion that it really is a parasite like malaria, and not a virus.
Why is it that Hanyuu is so damn useless?
The only thing competent she can say is not to get our hopes up.
au~ au~
Christen
2007-08-28, 22:15
She's like a balancer to Rika's mood. Don't get your hopes too much and don't feel too bad either. Though she leans more towards the pessimistic side.
Why is it that Hanyuu is so damn useless?
The only thing competent she can say is not to get our hopes up.
au~ au~
If Hinamizawa is the stage, everyone living in it are the actors, then Hanyuu is an audience. An audience watches the show, maybe makes some comments about it, but that's about it.
SeventhHS
2007-08-29, 02:27
If Hinamizawa is the stage, everyone living in it are the actors, then Hanyuu is an audience. An audience watches the show, maybe makes some comments about it, but that's about it.
Obviously Hanyuu can't physically help, but she does have the ability to reassure Rika with her words- but instead, she's been rather of a pessimist thus far in the Minagoroshi anime, putting a damper on that hope which Rika does find thanks to the strength and support of Keiichi and her friends.
She is probably just trying to make things less painful for Rika if (or when) the world does end in tragedy, but at this point there's nothing to be gained from that. She could be genuinely useful by keeping Rika's spirits up and encouraging her to make the most of every world, instead of always giving up at the first sign of adversity.
Vornesoul
2007-08-29, 06:26
What if both the 'Queen Parasite' and 'to become a god' theories are right?
Picture for a moment that Takano and/or her superiours wish for private and exclusive use of the parasite? What if she managed to extract a good sample for cultivation (get the parasite to infect in others) from Satoko but needed the Queen parasite to control it?
What if the queen parasite was something that begins out small at birth but grows fairly large? To a point where she could not simply extract it with a needle. Not only would it be hard to convince Rika to concent to such surgery, it would be hard to remove the thing and keep it for her own without people knowing.
At that point, it would be easier to fake her own death and remove the parasite from Rika the old fasioned way. With that done, she could use it to force the village to go insane for she wouldn't need it. None of them really had the power to change anything in the 'real world'. An army of crazed peasents would not get her a nice cozy mansion! It would just be baggage and extra risk her secret was found out. She doesn't need to mind or fenzy a bunch of peasents, she needs to infect hire ups to get what she wants.
She then uses her 'god-like' pheramone to drive the place mad and have it whiped out. Hell, if she had a grudge against the village, that is yet another bird she could kill with one stone. All her loose ends tied up nicely... In body bags...
I know it is Resident Evil-sih but it's just my thoughts on the matter. :P
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