View Full Version : Kanon - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Kagikkos only)
This thread is for the experienced Kanon viewer (of either the Game and/or the original Kanon 2002 series), its purpose is to allow free discussion of theories and speculation over the new Kanon 2006 series, it therefore will contain unmarked spoilers. If you are a first time viewer of Kanon 2006, then do not read this thread unless you want to be spoiled (use the Kanon - Speculation & Theories thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=38346)).
Since posters are expected to be familiar with the game and/or original series, there is no real need for spoiler tags, but feel free to include them if you so wish.
If you don't know how to use a spoiler tag, please read the BB Code FAQ (http://forums.animesuki.com/misc.php?do=bbcode#spoiler).
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Finally, please remain on-topic and do not use this thread if it's just discussion about the current or previous episodes. If you want to speculate or theorize over jam, be it Akiko's or otherwise, please post in the What the heck is in Akiko's jam!? (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=37879) thread :)
Might as well kick start things~
Episode 09 is titled 'Lullaby of a Fox Cub'. Of course we shouldn't start jumping to conclusions, but maybe the reason why we've been getting so much Makoto love is because her story shall end pretty soon. It makes sense when thinking about what Mai said to Yuuichi in episode 05.
Yes. It would make sense... But I do agree with not jumping to conclusions. The title is only specific in that it will most likely be a Makoto centered episode and that it'll probably reveal the fact that Makoto is a fox.
After all, Episode 5 was 'Demon's Serenade'. This was merely in revealing that Mai was a hunter of demons (at least to new viewers) with nothing more than that said on the subject and properly introducing Mai.
Well. Just gotta wait, eh. I'll be looking forward to see how the next couple of episodes turn out and if it may lead to the conclusion of Makoto's story.
Meophist
2006-11-05, 19:13
So we can speculate about the ending here? It's one of the big unknowns about this series so far.
Remember, 1st timers don't read this.
Well, we could wait to see how Makoto is handled first. Mai is being used to advance Makoto's path and if she does bite the dust within 2-3 episodes of 9, we need to see how far they got in Mai's path and how they are dealing with Mai imo.
If they slam us in Makoto's path, then that may give us a clue as to how the others are going to be dealt with also imo.
Mai, Ayu and Nayuki's paths are linked apparently. Isn't Shiori's path another independent path?
Oh thank goodness! :D I sometimes felt as though I was going to explode from not being able to discuss about the stuff I wanted to discuss about regarding Kanon.
~~~~ ~~~~
With regards to Ep09, I do not think it will be the resolution to Makoto's arc. KyoAni did say that they want to integrate the five storylines into one, and to conclude Makoto's arc before the halfway point of the series would seem premature and contradictory to their statements.
Besides... Makoto has not started degenerating yet, we have not seen Mishio yet, she has not run away yet, lullabies have nothing to do with weddings, etc...
I believe Ep09 will be the start of the end of Makoto's storyline.
Cheers.
But ....
Makoto has started to degenerate imo. If you can knock a guy down with one punch, then you should be able to carry a box up 1 flight of stairs. She was unable to complete that task in ep. 4. Maybe ep. 9 is the mid-point for recognizing the reason for the degeneration. Mai does say in the preview for ep. 6 roughly, "Soon she will be needing you more than anyone else." . I assumed that it was a reference to Makoto.
So we can speculate about the ending here? It's one of the big unknowns about this series so far.
You may speculate over any aspect of Kanon, so you may post your theories about the ending if you so wish.
If anyone does want to use spoiler tags, then it's very helpful if you include a subject title in the spoiler tag.
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But ....
Makoto has started to degenerate imo. If you can knock a guy down with one punch, then you should be able to carry a box up 1 flight of stairs. She was unable to complete that task in ep. 4. Maybe ep. 9 is the mid-point for recognizing the reason for the degeneration. Mai does say in the preview for ep. 6 roughly, "Soon she will be needing you more than anyone else." . I assumed that it was a reference to Makoto.
I believe that was just creative foreshadowing on KyoAni's part. We still have a long, long way to go with Makoto's story( unless they go flat out with Makoto ONLY for the next few episodes, which is contradictory to their pledge of integrating the storylines). Makoto's storyline is pretty straightforward, but not that short or simple.
Cheers. :)
It looks like Makoto will not
"suddenly go downhill" ... it'll be a *long* subtle degradation of health which makes it more likely the other characters won't notice something is wrong for quite a long time (as with the first time viewers). If they pull that off, it'll make her finale that much more convincing and the viewer will already have a pretty good idea that this story has supernatural elements. I had to watch Kanon2002 a couple of times to figure what the hell was going on with Makoto because it was so truncated (like Mai and hell like most of the stories... so truncated that I was occasionally saying "okay I'm supposed to be sad but what the hell just happened?")
:p I was pretty sad with Makoto's arc, I think it was the saddest part of the 2k2 Kanon. The other arc was Nayuki's, and Ayu's before she miraculously rose from the dead.
Aye.... I'm just going to stop talking about the 2002 version at this point because I have a suspicion that this version will move it into the dustbin on story interpretation alone (much less the animation differences). Other than a nod to locations and visual references, KyoAni seems to be focusing on the source story material though it remains to be seen how they will integrate some of it.
Anyway, so far I've been delighted with the interpretation and thread-weaving of the story. It looks like each thread is going to get full play (though it is fascinating to watch how some of it interweaves). Some of the threads may require tweaking though to make them fit and I'm interested to see how they accomplish that.
I think most *literate* fans are holding their breath to see if KyoAni "AIR-izes" the plot instead of just following the TOEI plot line (in other words... just how tragic are things going to get?)
Meophist
2006-11-06, 15:07
For Kanon, I think it might be interesting if they go for a no-ending route, in that the show ends before the story ends, leaving the viewers to guess what possible ending is the actual ending for the show. They can even leave enough clues to determine the actual ending, but not actually show it.
If that happens, could you imagine all the Ayu and Nayuki fans storming the place? Oh, the carnage. :heh:
But npal, she was never dead from the beginning of ep. 1. ;)
Or we could have the "Air" ending. Everyone dies and Nayuki sends him off on the train. Yuichi holding the good luck charm saying, "I'll always be with her..."
The narrator's situation was one of the "weak" points of the first anime.... how everyone might think/assume she was no more and then have Nayuki discover her at the end.... or did I misread that sequence?
relentlessflame
2006-11-06, 18:38
The narrator's situation was one of the "weak" points of the first anime.... how everyone might think/assume she was no more and then have Nayuki discover her at the end.... or did I misread that sequence?I'm assuming you're talking about the narration sequences before the OP? It was cryptic on purpose, exactly as it is in the new version; I thought that was one of the "better" points. It relied on people connecting the dots between the show's opening scene (looking out a window in a white room with the heart monitor beeping) and all the hints in the pre-OP sequences. It's one of those things you only figure out completely having seen the end and then you can look back (or watch again) and say "oh... now it all makes perfect sense". So, I consider that to be a good thing, as it added to the continuity and unity of the central plot. If not for those sequences, I imagine the ending would have seemed to have come out of nowhere; as it was, the ending just confirmed what the pre-OP sequences were alluding to from the very start. Unless you were referring to something else...?
Just like in the old version, the hospital and the hospital room made its appearances early to be forgotten in the later stages of the anime.
Okay, I think there has been enough forewarning in the earlier posts. No more spoiler tags from me from here on.
If that happens, could you imagine all the Ayu and Nayuki fans storming the place? Oh, the carnage. :heh:
But npal, she was never dead from the beginning of ep. 1. ;)
Or we could have the "Air" ending. Everyone dies and Nayuki sends him off on the train. Yuuichi holding the good luck charm saying, "I'll always be with her..."
Oh, but she CAN die. ;) The only reason why the little chibi keeps on ticking is because of her promise to wait for Yuuichi( years and years of waiting). Once that promise is fulfilled, she can either choose to use up her last promise to stay alive( and let the other girls/ladies croak), or sacrifice herself to save another( can we say Akiko?).
I always felt that Toei's version of Ayu's ending was too happy. :heh: Kanon's story has a huge potential to be an emotional carnage. :heh: Every main character, with the sole exception of Nayuki( because Akiko took the fall for her), has the potential to die in this story.
As I said in an earlier post made by me on another thread, I personally think it would be beautiful if after Ayu's awakening, Ayu chooses to use up her last promise to save someone and finally departs from the mortal world after clinging to her promise with Yuuichi for seven years.
That way, it will not cheapen her 'first' disappearance/death scene. In my opinion of course.
Cheers.
As I said in an earlier post made by me on another thread, I personally think it would be beautiful if after Ayu's awakening, Ayu chooses to use up her last promise to save someone and finally departs from the mortal world after clinging to her promise with Yuuichi for seven years.
That way, it will not cheapen her 'first' disappearance/death scene. In my opinion of course.
As much as I like Ayu, I agree. Toei's "happy ending" version just seemed...out of place. I saw where it came from (perfect ending of the game *assumption - I never played it*), but all the same, it seriously diverted from the flow of the plot.
Seriously, it seemed all too obvious she was really dead, but...I don't expect to see that aspect of the show change. The sad ending is certainly a possibility, of course, but I don't see it happening. But we shall see.
i have a question for y'all..... sooo.. this was taken from Episode 4 discussion
Rich, do you REALLY want to know the answer?
Because in order to answer, it's a really big spoiler. Last chance, and I'll give you a hint: it's the same reason why Ayu does not have a phone number, does not know what the heck a cellphone is, has some stores really mixed up even though she's supposed to be a native, and is confused by big words It's been a while since I saw Kanon 2k2, but IIRC, the real Ayu is lying in a coma for the past 7 years bedridden in the hospital shown in the first episode, and the Ayu we're seeing is her dream self manifested in reality. Thus since the Ayu that's shown right now is all but an apparition, hygiene doesn't really apply to her. And since she hasn't been awake for 7 years, much less been school in that period, she's a bit errr... unwise in the ways of the world.
i've also watched the old school kanon, but i believe i don't remember Ayu lying in a coma, i thought she died...? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
i've also watched the old school kanon, but i believe i don't remember Ayu lying in a coma, i thought she died...? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Heh. Well, if you go back in the Toei version, it becomes obvious that she never really died. The first minute or so of the series takes place in her hospital room. Patients that have been dead for seven years don't have hospital rooms.
This said, while the hospital was referenced in the 2006 version, they never went inside to confirm a patient. It's certainly possible that, in this version, Ayu will be in the Misuzu role (and legitimately die in the end).
Probably the first anime in which I am hoping for a cute little girl to die. I'm such a bastard. :heh:
Narf.
Probably the first anime in which I am hoping for a cute little girl to die. I'm such a bastard. :heh:
I didn't say it. I will be bummed if Ayu dies though. I'll also blame you. :p
I praying that Ayu dies this time around :p I won't mind if Nayuki shares her fate, if it's done in the spirit of the series and it's justified. Then Yuuichi commits suicide since everyone is dead, or hooks up with Kaori, who's potential to die is minimal :p She's hot too :D
Aieeee, all the dying. I'll need therapy. Tarantino does Kanon.. news at 11.
In the 2k2 version, they never confirmed the patient either until the last episode. It was "Oh Yeah" ep. 1's OP kind of thing. This time there was an even smaller hint that she's in the hospital. Realistically, she had no equipment on her in the hospital in the first version that would "beep" nowadays.
Somehow I just don't think that a title about miracles happening in a town of snow is going to kill off all of the main female characters. Even the dreamcast game from the walkthrus online had the 11th hour saves in them. Just about all those characters with the exceptiion of Makoto survived their injuries, diseases by the end of the game.
I praying that Ayu dies this time around :p I won't mind if Nayuki shares her fate, if it's done in the spirit of the series and it's justified. Then Yuuichi commits suicide since everyone is dead, or hooks up with Kaori, who's potential to die is minimal :p She's hot too :D
Ok you jumped the gun there but it was funny, anyway I doubt a love/romace anime would have suicide(death, maybe, suicide, no way in hell) or hooking up with minor chars(If they do bad kyotoani thats no way to make a good storyline) all shooting down your hopes aside I hope ayu dies too.
Rengemaru
2006-11-12, 06:35
from the OP and some of the events in 2k6 version, I'm betting that Yuuichi will end up with Ayu again and they might repeat the same ending as 2k2's ending.
and as I said before
My fav girl is Makoto and I wanted Nayuki to get a better fate but Ayu's path was the best choice
Oh and btw, I don't have time to dig in the "episode 1 discussion" But do you guys think that in episode 1, the fox that Nayuki chased after at the hill was Makoto? Because all of the girls were introduced or appeared in the first episode (unlike TOEI's version)
todkapuz
2006-11-13, 00:00
Oh and btw, I don't have time to dig in the "episode 1 discussion" But do you guys think that in episode 1, the fox that Nayuki chased after at the hill was Makoto? Because all of the girls were introduced or appeared in the first episode (unlike TOEI's version)
Seeing they had all the main girls (and a fair number of site charectors) in most of the first episodes, I'd say it probably was... I haven't played the game.. but it makes sense to me... she's been waiting as a fox for years for his return around that hill... such an evil boy he was leaving her alone, feeling unwanted with no where to go.. (poor Makoto) ... and then when she sees him and makes the wish to become human (how else can she get back at him for dumping her?).. that makes the most sense to me.. elsewise she wouldn't have survived long enough to actually see him imho.
Richard 23
2006-11-13, 22:00
Seeing they had all the main girls (and a fair number of site charectors) in most of the first episodes, I'd say it probably was... I haven't played the game.. but it makes sense to me...
No fox in the game before Makoto attacks Yuuichi at the market. It's a KyoAni addition. It doesn't necessarily have to have been Makoto, it could be any of the mystical foxes on that magical hill. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was.
It was a nice touch and I couldn't help thinking of Makoto when it appeared.
Yeah, Makoto was the first thing I thought of too when I saw that fox.
KenOhki'sRage
2006-11-16, 16:15
I think that was the point of putting that fox there was to look back (for new viewers) and say, Oh my goodness it's Makoto! and for all the older viewers to nod and say, hey there's a fox, reminds me of Makoto. I however DON'T think it's Makoto mostly because she's still a kit and foxes stay kits for at best a year. The 2k2 version had her birthday cake with 7 candles a nod to the fact that she's only 7 years old but a 7 year old fox is a heck of a lot different then a 7 year old human.
I'm thinking about this too much but were she a kit after 7 years then we can't determine her age. Granted they're magical foxes and according to Japanese folklore foxes can live for hundreds of years and gain tails the longer they're alive, up till the magic 9. I guess we can assume that magical foxes remain kits for years but it makes things complicated. It's easier to say she was born shortly before Yuuichi saves her from the trap and isn't in fact an eternal kit.
I guess it's complicated either way because if we assume she's an adult fox (mmmm Makoto as a vixen) then we wonder if she's a mother and all that complicated jazz. I'd rather think she's an adult fox who took the form of a human teenager because it's Yuuichi's age.
Gah! it makes my head all achy. Either way I wish they'd have just left that darned fox out of the first episode and saved me from wondering. It's easier for me to just give up and say it's not Mokoto then wonder about time paradoxes and the proper age of magical foxes. Bleh.
When I've played the game, I've ended with Ayu (awaked from coma). It was also the 2002 ending... Toei end wasn't "too good"!
(Sorry for my Engrish)
Geez, I just finished the old kanon today. I am really sad since not only thath she is the only girl who passed away, but the process of her dying is just pitiful especially when she starts to lose her memory and when she said "arigatou okasan". BTW, in the ova" Kazahana", it seems Mikoto meets Mishio and disappears shortly afterward. Does it mean that she is still alive or she is gone forever ?
Thank you for whoever answer my question.
KenOhki'sRage
2006-11-16, 21:09
Two tailed fox perhaps?
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d65/Tekrelious/kitsune.jpg
About Makoto's fate, I'm a bit fuzzy about it but my thoughts are spoilerific so:
Its been a while since Kanon2002 .. but I'm left with the recollection that she didn't "die" so much as returned to that misty world of Shinto kami (spirits) and specifically to that "place" where kitsunes roam. More of a buddhist shedding of the ego (that which made her Makoto for a time).
Not explaining this well, but I just didn't get any impression she "died" in the Western sense. Obviously some of that may depend on the spiritual understanding of the viewer...
Meophist
2006-11-16, 22:07
My thoughts while watching Kanon 2002 was along the same lines as Vexx.I never really thought about her as being dead until my brother pointed it out.
My thoughts while watching Kanon 2002 was along the same lines as Vexx.I never really thought about her as being dead until my brother pointed it out.
I always thought of Makoto the same way your brother pointed out, especially after Mishio's explanation in 2k2. She's the anime version of the original version of "The Little Mermaid" to me.
KenOhki'sRage
2006-11-17, 13:39
Mishio in 2k2 explained that the souls of the foxes are recycled, well she didn't say the word recycled, she hinted strongly that Mokoto's spirit would be reborn and there would be a new fox on the hill soon.
Do we need spoiler tags in this section? I'm really confused, after all the topic says Spoilers & Speculation so I really want to be lazy and not use them.
Leo_Otaku
2006-11-17, 14:34
How do you thinks story will be after Makoto's? I think maybe Shiori but Mai is getting a bit more screen time...I'm not sure >.< but I hope Sayuri gets her little story too ^-^"
Mishio in 2k2 explained that the souls of the foxes are recycled, well she didn't say the word recycled, she hinted strongly that Mokoto's spirit would be reborn and there would be a new fox on the hill soon.
Do we need spoiler tags in this section? I'm really confused, after all the topic says Spoilers & Speculation so I really want to be lazy and not use them.
That summarizes the buddhist/shinto concepts of reincarnation/rebirth -- the spirit carries on and though the memories may be shed from cycle to cycle, the balance of karma carries through and with that -- some sense of feeling about Yuuichi and the others.
The Little Mermaid analogy is pretty good though (outside of the Western lack of soul cycles)...
I know this is supposed to be a "BEWAREZ, SPOILERZ ABOUNDS, YARR!!!!" thread, but the title is just passive enough that I'd hate to seriously mess someone's fun up. So, in my case, I may continue to put a CLASS FIVE spoiler in tags just for my own peace of mind.
KenOhki'sRage
2006-11-17, 16:39
Makoto's degeneration in the old show took all of 15 minutes and covered the span of days/weeks. So it's entirely possible that with the introduction of Mishio in episode 7 and what looks like her explanation to Yuuichi on Makoto's true nature Kyoani may choose to drag her story out through several episodes. It's possible that Makoto's upcoming illness will take several episodes to resolve and be all the more heartbreaking for it.
MakubeX2
2006-11-17, 18:12
The way I see the scenarior panned out :-
Ep 8 is where we will see the last of the healthy Makoto and that the truth behind Makoto will be revealed by Mishio at the very end of the Ep.
Ep 9 is where will we see the begining of the degeneration of Makoto, but her arc will not end here. It will slowly be spread out till the end of the series, saving the staff story writting efforts to tie up any lose ends and still maximise the dramas. Any future cameo by her will be she and Yuuichi doing everyday stuffs in hope that she will recover.
panzerfan
2006-11-17, 23:15
I think that the degeneration process might already have pick its pace up, being right after Mononi hill. It will be quite gradual initially...
I don't totally agree with Makube's suggestion that her story will be left hanging, although I think that her regression will be long enough for all the other heroine that are aware of her to notice and to respond to that before Makoto vanishes away.
The next revelations after Amano's fox tale and the decline would be from Akiko's realization, the bell and so forth... the 'birthday' though might be a problem since Ayu's birthday happens to be a within a day from that chronologically.
Rengemaru
2006-11-19, 06:39
Although I enjoyed how the story ended in 2k3 version. But wasn't it announced that all of the stories would end together and not like the 2k3 version?
Not really, what they said was that they wouldn't concentrate on one story to the exclusion of all the other ones. I think what they were trying to avoid was to have characters not show up for episodes on end. They've been fairly successful thus far, but I'm not sure how they're planning to do it with Makoto's story.
Not really, what they said was that they wouldn't concentrate on one story to the exclusion of all the other ones. I think what they were trying to avoid was to have characters not show up for episodes on end. They've been fairly successful thus far, but I'm not sure how they're planning to do it with Makoto's story.
I think the're just gonna concertrate on the shori(if I mispelled the name please correct me) arc, seeing almost every episode yuiichi runs out the're to meet her. Mostly I think all the rest will die or be forgoten(such as SHUFFLE!)
relentlessflame
2006-11-20, 12:45
I think the're just gonna concertrate on the shori(if I mispelled the name please correct me) arc, seeing almost every episode yuiichi runs out the're to meet her. Mostly I think all the rest will die or be forgoten(such as SHUFFLE!)Well, no, I find that most unlikely. Regardless of how exactly it ends, the most critical story arc (the one they can't "forget") is the Ayu arc (as evidenced by countless "hints" - pre-OP monologues, OP imagery, ED focus, etc.). So regardless of the "romantic" turn-out, I think Ayu's story is still the "big deal", and will almost definitely close the show. That's in no way an attempt to dismiss Shiori's story, which is coming, but I don't think all the other characters will be forgotten as a result.
Well, no, I find that most unlikely. Regardless of how exactly it ends, the most critical story arc (the one they can't "forget") is the Ayu arc (as evidenced by countless "hints" - pre-OP monologues, OP imagery, ED focus, etc.). So regardless of the "romantic" turn-out, I think Ayu's story is still the "big deal", and will almost definitely close the show. That's in no way an attempt to dismiss Shiori's story, which is coming, but I don't think all the other characters will be forgotten as a result.
Ah I apoligise I can't believe I forgot about ayu(I don't know how it's possible but I forgot she even was a kanon character), at the moment I was only thinking about
shiori, nayuki, and makoto anyway I apoligise, I've been pretty breandead lately. Also I wasen't really dissmissing any arc I might of sounded like I was but I really wasen't.
Although I enjoyed how the story ended in 2k3 version. But wasn't it announced that all of the stories would end together and not like the 2k3 version?
One problem with the TOEI version is that it was "classical sequential" mostly except for Ayu running about. The KyoAni version seems to be trying to interleave *where it makes sense* and focus *when it makes sense*. If the climax is the Ayu conclusion... we're pretty much going to be have to be down to just Nayuki and Ayu -- otherwise the climax may be diluted (my opinion --- some genius writer could prove me wrong). That said... it may be episode 20+ before any girl's story gets firmly resolved. We've already seen how they're going to be able to defer Mai's story (Mai herself said "please pause").
I don't think they're going to end "together" but I do think they'll be able to weave the stories so that few or none are resolved before episode 20ish. I could even see them drawing out Makoto though I personally think it would be better for her story to climax in a few episodes to hook the new viewers.
KenOhki'sRage
2006-11-21, 01:06
Yeah the 2002 one we get basic story for 7 episodes then Mai's story in episode 8, Shiori's in 9, Makoto's in 10, Ayu's in 11, Naiyuki's in 12, and a final ending in 13. Each girl only gets 1 episode to tell her entire story which left too much out.
With the preview of 8 being nothing but Makoto I can't imagine stretching her story out for 16 episodes where she just gets weaker until she dies. That would be much too long. Since her story has the least to do with any other girl I vote for them removing her quickly and moving on. Guess we'll need to wait and see though.
aliensporebomb
2006-11-21, 07:41
Remember that this series has so far taken everything direct from the game.
So any of the possibilities you've seen in the game are likely here.
Did anyone else notice that Ayu's wings were moving in ep. 7? Or is it my imagination?
But they still need to expand on Mai, Shiori, Nayuki and Ayu in the remaining episodes too before concluding their stories like what's happening to Makoto right now.
But they still need to expand on Mai, Shiori, Nayuki and Ayu in the remaining episodes too before concluding their stories like what's happening to Makoto right now.
Tha's what I was talking about in the ep8 discussion thread, it's too early to talk about what's going on with makoto. They even went the extra mile to explain the whole 'makoto problem' in one(1) episode, IMO it's too soon to talk about makoto's problem or her past but that's just my opinion.
I always thought that Makoto was the easiest to pick off since her story did not involve revelations from the other girls' stories and so the first to go this time around. Her story teaches him and the viewers the real price of a miracle imo
I expect to be dropped off a cliff with this version of Makoto's arc. Yep, it's Air time again. I'm thinking ep. 11 now. People are probably going to be on edge after her arc ends until the end of the show.
yeah, for new viewers its going to be their first sledgehammer clue that they need to pay attention because there isn't going to be a reset ending and a bittersweet ending is the best possible ending they may get.
Rengemaru
2006-11-26, 07:14
I vote for them removing her quickly and moving on.
*crying* Have some mercy you butcher :sad:
So any of the possibilities you've seen in the game are likely here
It's true but the path that TOEI took was pretty good IMHO. Although I didn't play the game so I don't know about the other paths but I can't imagine a better path than the one TOEI took (unless someone can prove me wrong). And from the hints we saw KyoAni might be taking the same path again (resolving all stories, Nayuki and Ayu are left in the end, Yuuichi picks Ayu and saves her from the comma etc). And I'm really hoping for an epilogue or atleast something similer to the special episode that TOEI released.
Guess we have to wait until the whole mess is resolved.
I'm actually hoping that Ayu gets a better wardrobe if we get the same ending as 2k3. I know the wardrobe at the end is part of the game, but come on guys. Who really wears clothes like that at age 16? I vote for a more realistic wardrobe that's better than Shiori's (short skirt, tights, boots). :heh:
Just attempting to add some levity back into the thread since it's going to be all downhill from here.
Levity is something that may be needed, Orion. Heh heh.
Nevertheless, I can see why one would want to do away with Ayu's wardrobe at the end. It's...:heh:
Ascaloth
2006-11-26, 23:24
*adds his vote to a wardrobe change for Ayu at the end* :D
Say...should we ask to admins to open a poll for this? ;)
That would be fun. We could vote on which Ayu makeover is better. Original, cat-girl or..... ;)
That would be fun. We could vote on which Ayu makeover is better. Original, cat-girl or..... ;)
Sundress FTW :D
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/1858/10808592770271106709256ch8.th.jpg (http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10808592770271106709256ch8.jpg)
Ascaloth
2006-11-27, 12:12
Nice! Who's that behind her, though? Doesn't look like a Kanon girl to me...
Minagi Tono of Air, I believe, Ascaloth. At least...that's what I think...
Minagi Tono of Air, I believe, Ascaloth. At least...that's what I think...
Correct -- one volume has Ayu & Minagi on the cover; the other has Misuzu & Nayuki.
Oh, and if we're doing makeovers -- why not just go straight to angelic? ;)
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4584/ayuinsidefoldoutiv3.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ayuinsidefoldoutiv3.jpg)
Ascaloth
2006-11-27, 21:42
I see.....so where's the Nayuki/Misuzu cover, then? :p
P.S. I'm always a sucker for Ayu in seifuku. :D
Hey, what happened to this thread? It dropped to the bottom of the page, and my last post never showed up...
EDIT: And I'm always a sucker for Nayuki, period. :D
Ask and ye shall receive... :D
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9047/200607151152893944702dlze0.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=200607151152893944702dlze0.jpg)
DragoonKain3
2006-11-28, 14:17
Wow, I just realized again how much I like girls in sundresses (I blame you Asuka!). Most especially Nayuki, but then again, I'm a Nayuki fan. XD
If there's one bone I have to pick though is that the girls look TOO loli, Ayu in particular. She looks like she's no more than 12 when she's really, what, 17? hehehehe.
Did Hinoue do those drawings btw?
As for the angelic one, Ayu in Zettai Ryouki really boggles my mind. For some reason I think she's a knee-length socks kind of girl, though what I wouldn't give for Kyoani to put Ayu in seifuku in the end of the series, Zettai Ryouki or not.
Yeah, I think that Ayu looks better with knee hi stockings too now that you mention it. Ayu in Zettai Ryouki ain't bad either. Ayu in a sundress looked great too especially if it was in her 2k6 form imo.
I like the seifuku too. That way her promise comes true. ;)
I still think that Air's seifuku looks better than Kanon's.
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5493/airayuqe6.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=airayuqe6.jpg)
Greenish Growth
2006-11-29, 00:08
Possible game joke spoiler that wasn't included in the Kanon (2002) anime:
Where was that joke in the game where Yuuichi tricked Nayuki into revealing her three sizes?
Or have we already gone past that point in Kanon (2006)? :)
I still think that Air's seifuku looks better than Kanon's.
I beg to differ.....:p
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4571/214756255copyrm5.th.jpg (http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=214756255copyrm5.jpg)
Possible game joke spoiler that wasn't included in the Kanon (2002) anime:
Where was that joke in the game where Yuuichi tricked Nayuki into revealing her three sizes?
Or have we already gone past that point in Kanon (2006)? :)
It may be used in the future. That's all I can say about it... :heh:
Hmmm, obviously this is just a matter of taste... but Kanon's seifuku just *really* flatters the figures of those girls. They almost remind me of an improved version of the old classic Star Trek mini-uniforms.
Kanon's seifuku looks like a variation of a choir uniform to me that's one of the reasons why I gravitate to Air's seifuku. It's also less forgiving of fuller figures and really doesn't blend into social surroundings as well as Air's seifuku. It may also be a problem finding coordinnating outer clothes for (coats, hats, gloves) imo while black is a basic color and can coordinate with just about anything. Adding on cream and red gives you alot of options for that season.
Kanon's seifuku just screams dirt magnet also imo.
Also, Air's seifuku looks like a classic female wardrobe based design which won't go out of style imo.
I tend to gravitate toward classic wardrobe designs that don't go out of style. ;)
Ep 9 is where will we see the begining of the degeneration of Makoto, but her arc will not end here. It will slowly be spread out till the end of the series, saving the staff story writting efforts to tie up any lose ends and still maximise the dramas. Any future cameo by her will be she and Yuuichi doing everyday stuffs in hope that she will recover.
Sadly, judging from episode 10's title, it seems that Makoto's arc will be finished in episode 10. :(
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/keyword/%B5%FE%A5%A2%A5%CBKanon?kid=177103
In Toei's version, everyone returns to normal immediately after her arc and nobody seems to remember Makoto anymore. I just hope that she will still be remembered for the remaining episodes in the 2006 version......
Ascaloth
2006-11-30, 09:07
Whoa, man.
All I can say is, I agree with nani's conclusion. :(
For those of you who don't read Japanese...
Requiem on the Hill
:sad:
For those of you who don't read Japanese...
Requiem on the Hill
:sad:
(bows head) The closing scenes to one of my personal favorite storylines of Kanon.... :(
I like it better this way. I'd rather have the tension and atmosphere dense and serious at Makoto's conclusion than intermingling Ayu antics or Nayuki jokes. Ask yourself, would it help the story to have Ayu tackle Yuuichi now? I don't think so.
Wow. Very very well-done.
Of course some degree of focus will have to be taken. :) Kyoani never abandoned the interleave path and has interleaved throughout this edition of Kanon where it made sense. I personally thought it was brilliant the way they added Mai into Makoto's story (adds to the young swordswoman's mystery and helps points out that Mai is not just some ordinary girl).
Kyoani, I think, has succeeded in doing this. They know their stuff for sure and have done very excellently with the Kanon material. Gotta applaud them! Excellent work, Kyoani! :)
panzerfan
2006-11-30, 17:14
What I am waiting to see at this point is whether or not Ayu and the rest of the crew will respond to Makoto's deteriorating conditions or her... eventual ends (aside from the Minase, Mai and Amano).
I do feel crummy right now though, having seen episode 9. KyoAni's done it again... (all sorts of flashback from the AIR arc of AIR TV came to me while I watch this episode.)
I like it better this way. I'd rather have the tension and atmosphere dense and serious at Makoto's conclusion than intermingling Ayu antics or Nayuki jokes. Ask yourself, would it help the story to have Ayu tackle Yuuichi now? I don't think so.
Wow. Very very well-done.
True. It wouldn't help if she tackles Yuichi. However, I feel that it would develop her character more if she reacts to the situation and was aware of it. Makoto is an acquaintance of hers too after all. It's like she dropped off the planet now and will return after the arc ends.
This was just like a complaint I heard about the first series. The integration is better, but Ayu should have been more involved here too imo. Someone has to explain Makoto's disappearance to her after the arc concludes. If she doesn't question Makoto's disappearance, then it's a failure of the integration imo.
Edit: I just saw a spoilerish wallpaper from the TV series. So, integraton continues....
Edit2: Ascaloth asked for the pic to be posted here, so here it is.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8616/ayumakotoandnayukito9.th.jpg (http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ayumakotoandnayukito9.jpg)
Ascaloth
2006-12-06, 00:30
I shall now endeavour to write an Kanon 2006 essay on a topic that has been in my mind for a long time now; the issue of the "interleave" approach.
Nine episodes of KyoAni's Kanon has now been aired since the beginning, yet the fact is, a lot of us still can't agree on the definition of "interleave". From my observations, there are many different viewpoints of what "interleave" is supposed to entail, and these views vary so much, that some of these views contradict each other; one of which, the most extreme is the view that Toei's Kanon is the "interleave" approach while KyoAni's is the "modular" approach, a view that is diametrically polarized from the majority of viewpoints. Clearly, not all of us have similar views of what the "interleave" approach is supposed to mean, and I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on what the "interleave" approach means to them, and what it is supposed to entail.
I will start the ball rolling. For my part, I believe that the "interleave" approach means that, apart from their own arcs in which they star, every girl should appear before their arc starts, and continue to make their presence felt in some form or other, after their arc is over. To varying degrees, the girls of KyoAni's Kanon have fulfilled my former expectation, but what about the latter? We don't know yet, since the storyline hasn't advanced that far yet, but anyway, here I shall be outlining my expectations of how KyoAni should rightfully be fulfilling their promise of an "interleave" approach.
I will be going through each girl according to my predictions of in what order their arcs would be gone through, and I'm going to state what I think they should do to fulfil the "interleave" approach.
Makoto: Unfortunately, even in the original game storyline, Makoto never really affects anyone else's arcs, and thus there isn't any source material for KyoAni to use to have her influence the storyline. What's worse, is that KyoAni chose to finish her arc first; it makes sense from a point of view, since she can be gotten out of the way of what is probably the "main theme" of Kanon, but then again, we all know how she would end. So, how could she possibly have any more influence on the rest of the storyline after that?
I do have an idea regarding that though, and I'd have to say it's taken from one of Toei's innovations in the 2k2 Kanon; more specifically, Kazahana. I'm thinking that after the end of Makoto's arc, Makoto can still make her presence felt in the storyline by taking the form of the "voice in the wind" that she takes in Kazahana, occasionally ringing her bells and whispering words in Yuuichi's ears that no one else can hear. These words may or may not be of use to him while he's preoccupied with the troubles of another girl, and indeed, even doing so, Makoto might still not have that much impact left on the rest of the storyline, but at least, it's better than nothing. And who is to say that KyoAni can't use Makoto's "voice in the wind" to further the storyline somehow, in one way or another....?
Shiori: This one is, yet again, another troublesome little lady. Even more so because of the unique position she holds amongst the five girls of Kanon; she is the only one who has no links with Yuuichi in the past, links which even Makoto had, in a sense. Like Makoto, her arc hardly influences any of the other main girls (although it does heavily affect a certain side character...), and the worst thing of all? Unlike Makoto, we're not even sure if Shiori survives this time round; since after all, there's nothing in her original game ending that KyoAni would have a vested interest in, nothing to get them to think, "Well, we have to let her live, 'cause if we don't, we're missing out a chance to animate some of Kanon's best-loved scenes in the game". Shiori could live, or she could die, it makes no difference; either way, all of her original scenes would have been animated by KyoAni by the time her arc ends, regardless of the eventual ending.
If Shiori dies, that's the end for her; she can't very well come back as a "voice in the wind" like Makoto conceivably could, and then how could she be a vital cog in a Kanon "interleave" storyline? However, if she survives, there's still a few things she can do, even if it isn't much; one thing that comes to mind, is that she could be one of Yuuichi's helpers when he gets everyone he can find to help him find Ayu's doll, and even be the one to actually find it (this one is taken from the first manga, BTW). Another way she can make her presence felt is to converse with Ayu occasionally from time to time; her scene with Ayu in Toei's Kazahana comes to mind, and apart from that, she can make some small talk with Ayu to help build upon Ayu's character.
Like Makoto, there isn't a lot Shiori can do to influence the storyline once her part in it is ended; however, as long as the both of them do make their presence felt in some way, however small, I will be a happy camper.
Mai: Ah, what can I say about her? If it's about the "interleave", then Mai has already done her part in influencing the storyline beyond her own arc; already she has proven to be a pivotal point in Makoto's storyline, and one can easily see her doing more than her fair share of work in Shiori's arc, too. Already, that is more than she ever did even in the original game. If KyoAni does do that, I wouldn't really mind if she doesn't appear again until the end; she would have done enough.
And while like Shiori, Mai's original line holds the possibility of her perishing, my bets are that she survives; why? Because if she doesn't, KyoAni loses the chance to animate the Mai-Sayuri kimono animation scenes. And if Toei can do it, what makes you think KyoAni would lose a chance to do it better? ;)
And finally, Mai could possibly end up in the hospital. It's not hard to guess which other girl's arc she can influence from that position. ;)
Ayu: Although the signs are against it, there's a slim chance that Ayu might do a small part in Makoto's end; otherwise, the main part of the story where she can do some good would be in Nayuki's arc, where Akiko comes down with the fever. Unfortunately, as Ayu IS the main character of the story, she's not exactly expected to do much in the way of pulling her weight in other girl's arcs, and so...
Nayuki: The girl who originally has the most potential to influence the storyline outside of her own arc. Unfortunately, KyoAni missed a chance to have her influence Makoto's storyline more than she originally did, and it's hard to see her having any impact on Shiori's or Mai's storyline, either. However, from the look she gave in Episode 9 when she looked back at the closed door of Yuuichi's room, I can see great potential for her; the main theme of Nayuki's story is the angst that she feels at being neglected by Yuuichi, and as we go through Shiori's and Mai's arc, KyoAni can slowly build up the feeling of angst in Nayuki in the background, while the main storyline continues in Yuuichi neglecting her for the former two girls. And finally, this can culminate in Ayu's arc, reaching its peak in her own arc, when the accident happens.
Basically, Nayuki's the girl with potentially the most weight to pull in the whole storyline; using her angst alone, she can easily make her presence felt throughout everyone else's arcs. It remains to see if KyoAni realizes that, and makes full use of it.
Okay, now that it's done, let me ask; how do you think KyoAni should do the "interleave" approach, in the context of Kanon itself? How do you think they've done it so far, and how do you think they should take it from here?
Before I start on my views, let me note something. Kanon started out as an 18-kin VN; as such, it's structure is that the player is supposed to go down one girl's path, and end it there. Through the process of one path, the story is intended to build up what I call "tension" in the reader, and have it peak at the end. And then, the player is supposed to do it all over again, picking another path this time, and letting that path build "tension" in him all over again.
However, the problem with KyoAni's Kanon, is that they're doing all five girls' storylines at once. Not only that, but they're trying to do it "interleave", too. So, I believe the real trick behind successfully keeping that promise, is to ensure that the meshed storyline they are working with is capable of keeping up that "tension"......all the way through the five different storylines. Five different storylines that were supposed to run seperately from the beginning.
Can they do it? Since it's KyoAni, I'm hoping if anyone could do it, it would be them; but they face an uphill task. Basically, what they need to do is to ensure that they can maintain the level of "tension" in between arcs properly; to make it such that between the end of one arc and the start of another, the audience retains the feeling that this is a serious, melancholy tale, and not to spoil it with too much (if indeed, any) light moments that would only deflate the "tension". Unfortunately, I'm getting the feeling they're already starting to drop the ball with the conclusion of Makoto's arc; how is KyoAni going to keep up the momentum into the next arc, without deflating by using light moments as fillers in between?
It would be best if they start, say Shiori's arc, in the same episode as the end of Makoto's arc, so that you can have a more or less smooth transition from one tragic story into another. However, that is just me; your mileage may vary.
Good write up. I tend to agree with your definition of "interleave" and how it is used here. Mathematically, I'd characterize it as a group of sine waves with sliding zero points so the climaxes for each don't interfere. One of my complaints about the "modular" approach is that girls just don't "vanish" when you're still going to school with them, sharing the same pod of friends...
In general, I like the way KyoAni is making the Kanon world a bit more "real" by letting you see the girls execute life and normality before the camera really focuses on them for their arc.
I also prefer slight breathing and rest moments between the climaxes as long as each one builds on the last (we don't want to kill the viewers after all, they won't be able to buy anything then).
Since the series is still ongoing, I decided to post in this thread to avoid spoiling too much( due to contextual hinting).
Things I Wish To Hear, But Will Probably Not
Yuu: What do you see?
Mai: I see... dead people. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0167404/quotes)
~
Ayu: ~Uguu. I don't feel like eating Taiyaki today...
~
Nay: USO DA! USO DA! USO DA!
~
Mai: Ban-kai.
~
Shi: Yuuichi, Yuuichi... Yuuichi, if you go, where shall I go? What shall I do?
Yuu: Frankly, my dear. I don't give a damn. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031381/quotes)
Shi: Ah! I don't like people who say such things.
~
Mai: ~Uguu
~
Nay: Gomen nasai. Gomen nasai. Gomen nasai. ~
~
Standing over the cowering Student President
Sayuri: What we've got here is... failure to communicate. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061512/quotes) ~Ahaha.
~
Akiko: Disapproved.
~
Mak: ~Auu. My name is Sawatari Makoto. You abandoned me, father. Prepare to die. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/quotes)
~
Cheers.
ADD]
Shi: Look into your heart, Kaori! You know it to be true!
Kao: No!
Shi: I am... your sister.
Kao: NOOOO!
~
Shi: Who are you?
Yuu: The name's Kyon. Not Kyon.
In, "No One Lives Forever" ;)
~
Ayu: Do you expect me to lose to Nayuki?
AnimeSuki Member: No, Ms Ayu. I expect you to die. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058150/quotes)
Oye... now I'm wishing for a blooper reel, outtakes, and omake of Kanon. That could be most refreshing.
Since the series is still ongoing, I decided to post in this thread to avoid spoiling too much( due to contextual hinting).
Things I Wish To Hear, But Will Probably Not
Wow...that's post of the year material, there. The only thing I can think to add:
INT. SHIORI'S ROOM - NIGHT
Shiori is singing an old American country & western song to herself.
SHIORI
(quietly)
And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd have had to miss the dance
LOL, marvelous, but rep needs a circle first :p
Especially liked the Nayuki ones and the last one :D But all were great
Ascaloth
2006-12-06, 06:35
I've been watching AIR, and.....
Is it just me, or does the mystery woman in episode 4 REALLY resembles Akiko-san?
Oye... now I'm wishing for a blooper reel, outtakes, and omake of Kanon. That could be most refreshing.
Like this? http://forums.visualnews.net/showpost.php?p=17692&postcount=100
On the other hand, the titles for episode 11-13 are up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kanon_episodes
Seems like Mai's arc will be next
Like this? http://forums.visualnews.net/showpost.php?p=17692&postcount=100
Because everybody wants to kill Piro...
http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/9995/keykids4op9.th.png (http://img506.imageshack.us/my.php?image=keykids4op9.png)
On the other hand, the titles for episode 11-13 are up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kanon_episodes
Seems like Mai's arc will be next
Hmm... would they resolve that arc before the other three girls? I hope not, but the waltz title gives me pause. Oh dear lard, I pray to whatever anime gods out there that they do not hyper-compress her arc AGAIN. Please let this be merely my unwarranted paranoia.
I waited months for this remake solely because I wanted to witness her arc in its' full glory. It would be criminal to resolve her arc so soon when it is one of the most complicated ones.
*prays*
Well, the interweaving needs to make sense. All the girls can't be everywhere.
So, I've thought about breaking it down by the locations...
School: Shiori, Nayuki, Yuichi, Mai. Ayu can walk up to the school grounds, but probably not go in unless there was a festival there or sneak in at night. Just like what Makoto was doing. Japanese schools have security there too, right?
Home: Nayuki, Yuichi, Ayu, Makoto. Others can call in like Mishio was doing. So maybe Sayuri and Kaori?
Shopping district: Nayuki, Shiori, Ayu, Yuichi, Kaori, Makoto. Sayuri in place of Mai.
Minor locations:
Park/fountain: Shiori, Yuichi. Maybe have Ayu talk to Shiori there since she's met Shiori already. Nayuki shows up with Kaori after the dance ends...
Hospital: Mai, Ayu, Nayuki, Yuichi. Shiori could also end up here depending on how they end it.
Train station: Ayu, Yuichi
--------------
Oh nuts! Shiori fans on hold again.
Meophist
2006-12-06, 20:16
Like this? http://forums.visualnews.net/showpost.php?p=17692&postcount=100I remember seeing that a long time ago. Didn't Megatokyo link that?
So, Ayu didn't appear in this arc.
Then do you think that was this pic a red herring or a hint for things to come after hearing Yuichi's wish at the end?
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8616/ayumakotoandnayukito9.th.jpg (http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ayumakotoandnayukito9.jpg)
Now I wonder how are they going to explain this to Ayu?
In a way, I am relieved that Makoto bit it in Ep10. It gives me hope that KyoAni may not go for the fairytale ending. Oh, and I will be very pleased if Amano continues to make appearances in the future episodes.
Cheers.
KenOhki'sRage
2006-12-13, 14:05
I'm actually expecting something similar to a Kanon 2k2 ending. The possibility for tragedy still exists in the show but with 1 wish remaining it's impossible for a completely tragic (think Air) ending. The very worst they could do is have Ayu wish for herself to come back leaving Akiko hospitalized and Mai and Shiori dying. Or Ayu to wish for ". . ." while she herself eternally sleeps. There's no way to get a pure tragedy out of the story where nobody is left happy. One girl at the very least will find happiness with Yuuichi in the end.
They could surprise us all (and make me happy) and have it be Shiori. Strange that I'm rooting for her this time around and not Nayuki. How things have changed in this version makes me love the girl :D
All this talk about characters dying. The only shoe-in for dying was Makoto imo. The others can still make it out alive by the series end (Spring) imo.
Besides, isn't it bad for a child to die in Buddhism, like it's considered a sin? So even if Ayu does the self-sacrifice route, she's screwed in the afterlife, right? She's no Gil-son by a long shot.
Not that I've ever read (at least in mainstream buddhism). At worst I'd call it "unfortunate" because they have less time to "improve their lot" in karmic terms. There is no "after-life" in the western sense ... all the artifacts of the ego and memories are shed when the soul returns for the next cycle (the only attribute being the karma factor). Now stir in Shinto and other lore and it gets a bit murkier since ghosts and spirits are a factor (but mostly as souls with things left unresolved) as well as Shinto being more about day-to-day existence rather than "big picture" issues. The thumbnail view is that average people worry about buddhist things at birth, marriage, and death... but Shinto is more daily life. That view is, of course, simplistic and inaccurate as most such views are :)
Self-sacrifice is definitely not a problem in most eastern philosophies.
Oh, cuz I got that impression from the Hell Girl Season 1 thread religious discussion part. Still, if she did the self-sacrifice route would she still be able to reach Nirvana like Gil-son did? I mean she still has emotional baggage at the end during Akiko's accident.
A bit of a tangent here, but I just wanted to say that out of all the scenes in Ep10, I felt that the following scene was the most haunting, if you already have the background knowledge of the whole story.
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/4783/kanonep10ayufo3.th.jpg (http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kanonep10ayufo3.jpg)
All alone and waiting... and waiting... and waiting~ :upset:
kingdom_elladrel
2006-12-14, 12:25
A bit of a tangent here, but I just wanted to say that out of all the scenes in Ep10, I felt that the following scene was the most haunting, if you already have the background knowledge of the whole story.
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/4783/kanonep10ayufo3.th.jpg (http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kanonep10ayufo3.jpg)
All alone and waiting... and waiting... and waiting~ :upset:
Yup, that's exactly what I thought too.
In my impression (and obviously there's a lot of room for dispute), the Buddhist "hell" is a tacked on artifact injected by someone in Japan who had the same sort of idea that someone in Europe did to take the Greek/Norse version of hell and tack it onto Christianity to threaten the rubes. I used to have the writings and author's name handy of the tracts that describe or reference the concepts, but can't recall them without some research. It really doesn't even make sense in relation to the core tenets of Buddhism and only marginally more sense in Shinto.
A bit of a tangent here, but I just wanted to say that out of all the scenes in Ep10, I felt that the following scene was the most haunting, if you already have the background knowledge of the whole story.
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/4783/kanonep10ayufo3.th.jpg (http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kanonep10ayufo3.jpg)
All alone and waiting... and waiting... and waiting~ :upset:
Kind of reminds you of Misuzu, doesn't it?
@Vexx: So one of Hell Girl's "hell" may not be Ayu's destination for that self-sacrifice maneuver if she doesn't make it upwards? She gets reincarnated then?
All souls get reincarnated until they reach Nirvana. They completely shed their personalities and memories in each cycle but their karma and tendencies carry forward. The buddhist hell is even temporary (kind of a "Time Out" zone for souls). Self-sacrifice has also always been differentiated from simple suicide. And as we've tragically seen this year in Japan, buddhism does not really condemn suicide as atonement for perceived failures in life (somehow a failure to be accepted is the victim's fault under the sometimes ass-backwards interpretations of "wa" (harmonization)).
I'm still trying to figure out why what the bullies do is apparently "wa" and the victims are somehow "out of wa". To me such barnyard hen-pecking is very anti-harmony.
DanielSong39
2006-12-14, 20:18
What do you think will happen in the ending?
After thinking things over... maybe an Ayu ending wouldn't be so bad after all, if it was done right. And I believe there IS a way to improve upon the 2002 ending without killing Ayu off or having Yuuichi choose Nayuki. Here are some ideas:
Instead of having Ayu yearn for Yuuichi's undying love, she could simply be searching for acceptance and understanding. From her backstory, it seems to me that she needs a friend more than a man - she wants someone who accepts her the way she is, despite her quirks, and is willing to spend time with her.
I'd actually be happier seeing her in the Minase household, as Nayuki's sister and Yuuichi's brother - rather than seeing her as Yuuichi's girlfriend. I just think she needs a family and network of close friends more than she needs a love interest.
That's actually not a bad ending for my taste, though Nayuki and Yuuichi aren't really related that way (considering Nayuki's masked feelings and some wiggle room for future possibilities). It also opens up a few more opportunities in other directions for those who need Yuuichi to end up with a mate of some sort.
However, I'll be surprised if KyoAni tweaks the ending much -- even given their penchant for very bittersweet endings.
Well, I'll keep the hope alive till the end that Ayu kicks the bucket :p
Oh yes indeed. :heh: One Ayu death and an extra serving of self-sacrifice please. :D
*grins*
kingdom_elladrel
2006-12-15, 13:25
Episode 11 just came out so............here's something that came to mind. I had actually wondered about this before in the 2002 version, but I had forgotten about it until this episode came out.
Haven't seen this episode yet, but since I've checked out the screencaps and first impressions in one of the links an anime blog in a previous post.......Spoilers don't affect me, they have the opposite effect, hehehe.......
What happens to Ayu every single night? First, there was the date with Yuuichi. She says she'll go home but some of us know this is not the case. And then in this episode, she spends the night at the Minase residence. She appears to be physically "there" in their house. But in all other nights, what actually happens to her?
Does she disappear and reappear the next morning? Does she wander the streets of the town aimlessly?
If she disappears temporarily, why doesn't this happen in this episode? Or maybe we just don't see it, since everyone else in the house is asleep. But she was asleep in Nayuki's room, so she probably doesn't temporarily disappear, or Nayuki may notice. But then again, Nayuki is an extremely heavy sleeper so she probably won't even notice if Ayu does temporarily disappear.
However, if Ayu does not temporarily disappear, what is she doing every night in town? Where would she sleep? She's gotta be sleeping somewhere. Or does she even sleep at all?
If she doesn't sleep and doesn't disappear temporarily, does she just wanders the town aimlessly, waiting for Yuuichi to return again? That to me seems to make the most sense, but I could be wrong. Things still do not add up.
Mysterious, isn't it?
...
No, seriously -
Given Ayu's actual state, she drifts in and out of various stages of consciousness and her projection exists for the necessary time when important people are going to see her. It simply isn't explained "where she goes" because there's simply no continuity to her existence. There's a couple of moments where she isn't quite sure where she just was (but I don't have the spare time to call the ep:time on them).
Well, in my opinion, when all is settled down, Ayu goes back to the bench to wait for Yuuichi's next visit. In the image that I posted at the top of this page, and in earlier episodes, Ayu has always been depicted as sitting at the bench waiting whenever Yuuichi is not around. Whether in the opening dreams, or in present time.
That bench is pretty symbolic to the Ayu story, since that is always the meeting spot where Ayu meets Yuuichi for their next 'adventure', which was further expanded upon when they chose to meet there for their movie date.
So why wasn't Ayu there when Yuuichi met Nayuki at the bench in the first episode? Well, the only explanation I can give is that either she was too busy stealing Taiyaki, or something happened at the hospital( medical checkups) that caused her 'dreaming' to be interrupted.
Cheers.
KenOhki'sRage
2006-12-16, 14:49
You guys read any of the spec thread for first time viewers? It's not even fair, some of them have the entire series guessed already. I never had a clue in Kanon 2k2, maybe it's just 2k6 is so much better people are able to pick up clues.
I just finished waching Kanon 2002. The story line is amazing. I'm quite impressed.
The 2006 verision is quite interesting as well. I going to go back a re-watch 1-11.
BTW, what does Kanon mean?
IRJustman
2006-12-16, 18:18
BTW, what does Kanon mean?
Listen to the music in the shop featured in eps 1 and 11. It's Pachelbel's Canon in D. And think German. :)
--Ian.
@ Tasdern
Not just a musical piece, but rather a musical form - a Kanon is a piece of music in which involves a melody that has one or more imitations of the original melody present in the song - think like a piece sung in 'rounds'. Quite a few commonly heard ones today are Baroque in style - the most famous is Kanon D-dur by Johannes Pachelbel. It actually plays in the current Kanon anime in the first episode where Ayu and Yuuichi are hiding from the Taiyaki seller in the café, as IJ mentioned.
Think roundelay, really. Technically, 'Row, Row, Row Your Boat' is a Kanon. Admittedly a rather simple one, but still a Kanon/Canon, as it's more commonly spelled in English. :)
-Andiyar
Ha! I thought it needed to be translated. It was their pronunciation and the K that threw me.
You guys read any of the spec thread for first time viewers? It's not even fair, some of them have the entire series guessed already. I never had a clue in Kanon 2k2, maybe it's just 2k6 is so much better people are able to pick up clues.
Yeah, it's pretty amazing of them; but then again, KyoAni has not exactly been subtle about dishing out the clues. :heh:
Narf.
Meophist
2006-12-16, 23:02
I don't think I've read anything about the Misaki connection yet in the speculation thread. There was a dead giveaway in episode 2 as well.
Greenish Growth
2006-12-16, 23:25
Yeah, it's pretty amazing of them; but then again, KyoAni has not exactly been subtle about dishing out the clues. :heh:
Do you guys think it might be better they're maybe giving out a few too many hints compared to the Toei version where...
...they gave out too few hints (i.e. Ayu's case) and a number of non-gamer viewers got ticked off because they thought they were misled into thinking that Ayu had actually died. :)
They're giving out so many more hints in this version that I can't see that as happening this time around.
I don't think I've read anything about the Misaki connection yet in the speculation thread. There was a dead giveaway in episode 2 as well.
Already speculated. ;)
The only thing left untouched so far are,
..) The doll of promises.
..) The importance of the Taiyaki-stealing dog that Mai petted.
..) Sayuri's background story( if KyoAni decides to animate it).
..) Akiko's connection to Ayu.
..) Ayu's 'school'.
..) The tree... good grief, I'm surprised none of them talked about it yet.
..) Who Shiori was originally waiting for.
..) The distance between Kaori and Shiori.
..) Why Nayuki is so persistent in asking Yuuichi whether he remembers the past.
..) etc...
Cheers.
Hrm. Having read through the most recent posts in the 'other' speculation thread... I am a tad suspicious, perhaps. I know what's going to happen, as do most if not all people in this thread - at least, we presume so. But even so, I can't quite see how some of the conclusions in that thread were drawn after episode 11... some of them are a tad too neat and detailed. Interesting.
Unless of course, I've completely missed/ignored the hints included as, well, they're not really a hint if you know what they mean. But I've watched Kanon a... well, a 'fair' bit per episode, and if I was genuinely a new watcher, I don't think that everything they've observed in the show has been there yet. Not in 2006 alone.
Of course, I could be wrong. ^^
-Andiyar
Watching [a.f.k.]'s fansub of Ep11, I realised something. They spoiled the family connection between Shiori and Kaori in the ending credits. :heh:
Oops?
... major oops. How did he do it, give the character names as both family and personal names? Or did Stratos just slip it in?
Well. That might explain how the spec thread is taking it as given that they're family. Good to know ^^
-Andiyar
... major oops. How did he do it, give the character names as both family and personal names? Or did Stratos just slip it in?
Well. That might explain how the spec thread is taking it as given that they're family. Good to know ^^
-Andiyar
The credits listed the full names for everybody. :heh: Take heed of the first two characters for their names.
Stratos arranged their names in the western style, but the credits had their names in the eastern style.
Cheers.
Ahh. Well, I'm watching the SS-Eclipse version, and they aren't translating the credits, and since I can't read hiragana/kanji, I'm fairly safe from those kinds of moments. Doesn't matter in this instance... but I'd imagine that I'd be relatively irritated if I saw it for the first time before we find out that Kaori and Shiori are sisters, as we haven't been told Shiori's surname yet in the show, if memory serves :)
-Andiyar
Meophist
2006-12-17, 12:06
They did that for episode 2. I was kinda wondering after Shiori didn't state her last name, if anybody was going to check it out in the credits. Looking at the credits, it was there, right next to each other. Anybody who was paying attention would've caught that, I'd wager.
(maybe it was episode 3, I forgot)
But, the people watching the show in Japan would have caught it by now so for them and other Japanese literate types it's not a spoiler. In the spirit of the raw broadcast, I don't have a problem with that either.
@ Orion
Well, let's face it, Kanon isn't even intended for people who haven't played the game or watched the previous show; they aren't even in the target audience. So in that sense putting the full names in the credits isn't spoilerific at all. But then, in our AnimeSuki/western audience, we do have a fair sprinkling of people who haven't seen Kanon 2002 or played the game - so in that sense, it is rather a spoiler.
Ah well - closing the barn door after the horse has taken off, it may be, but I still think it would have been better, for the western/new fans, for the credits to have been left untranslated. I mean, if the audience can read the credits anyway, chances are they are or will be a game player - or have already seen the first show. :)
-Andiyar
Usually anime's purpose is to lift sales of merchandise (software, CDs, DVDs, figures, etc). Are they re-releasing the original game or alternatively, is it still on the shelves and available in Japan?
@ Vexx
Indeed it is normally to promote sales of whatever might be lying around. Kanon is indeed still available now, I believe a new version (DVD, all-ages) was released in 2004, and is very much still in print. :)
-Andiyar
relentlessflame
2006-12-17, 23:01
And in fact, they're also re-releasing the game on PSP in Feburary (not to mention the OP/ED single re-release, figures, etc.) - so, certainly, the cash-in opportunity isn't being lost. But it's not as if they won't make the anime production costs back in DVD sales either. There's no doubt that it's a golden marketing opportunity.
Heh. And figurines. And shirts. And knick knacks. Posters. More CDs. Key chains. Mobile phone straps. Bags with wings. Coats. Pillows. Towels. And...
I love capitalism ^^
-Andiyar
aliensporebomb
2006-12-20, 17:02
Some theories about Ayu's "phone call home":
You probably don't want to look at this unless you've watched 2002 in its entirety.
I said entirety! You don't want to ruin it do you?
Don't make Ayu cry, okay? She would too.
I'm serious, this could RUIN it for all of you if you haven't seen the
2002 conclusion.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
Here's my theory:
-The number she dialed was indeed her home number.
-My theory is: no one was home because:
#1 it was early evening - people still finishing dinner.
#2 if indeed it WAS her real number and if:
Her mother has died:
THEN:
Dad wasn't home because he was out - his situation would have
to be absolutely devastating - he would likely be eating dinner out.
Or he was at a certain hospital visiting someone or possibly drinking
himself into oblivion (loss of wife/daughter).
Too much for one person to bear possibly. '
He would not have moved for obvious reasons in order to be close
to the hospital and the emotional devastation would likely have
sapped any strength from someone considering that idea.
I have another idea that goes along these lines but I'll withold for now.
KenOhki'sRage
2006-12-20, 23:54
lots of spoilerish looking stuff
Probably belongs in the experienced Kanonites thread but you've posted here so I'll respond here. I'm uncertain why her phone wasn't disconnected long ago except that if she'd gotten a disconnected line it would have spoiled much of the surprise for later. She obviously couldn't contact her parents because that wouldn't work either, the only way Key had for them to continue is no answer at all and a claim by the spiritual Ayu that they're mysteriously "on vacation". It's Key's answer to a sticky story problem, just ignore it. I think it works ok.
Personally I was always of the opinion that Ayu is cared for by the state and has no connection to whatever parents she has/had. That allows for more freedom in her character to lie alone in a bed and astral travel without familial worries to occupy her.
IRJustman
2006-12-21, 01:41
Probably belongs in the experienced Kanonites thread but you've posted here so I'll respond here. I'm uncertain why her phone wasn't disconnected long ago except that if she'd gotten a disconnected line it would have spoiled much of the surprise for later. She obviously couldn't contact her parents because that wouldn't work either, the only way Key had for them to continue is no answer at all and a claim by the spiritual Ayu that they're mysteriously "on vacation". It's Key's answer to a sticky story problem, just ignore it. I think it works ok.
Indeed it would. Though since phone numbers are recycled (I don't anticipate Japan's telcos to be any different than the ILECs here), she may have dialed a number whose occupants weren't home at the time, so that's another possible legitimate way out of a sticky situation, plot-wise.
Personally I was always of the opinion that Ayu is cared for by the state and has no connection to whatever parents she has/had. That allows for more freedom in her character to lie alone in a bed and astral travel without familial worries to occupy her.
Curious, though, since you say that (which is an angle I hadn't quite considered), if she were a ward of the state, wouldn't she be under any manner of curfew? Though I'd also be curious where she would go when the day was done while she was younger and a bit more... intact.
--Ian.
MakubeX2
2006-12-22, 07:52
Upcoming episodes Title :-
Kanon -カノン- 第15話 「かくれんぼの小奏鳴曲 ～sonatina～」 (Hidden Sonatina)
Kanon -カノン- 第16話 「真夜中の聖譚曲 ～oratorio～」(Noctural Oratorio)
Kanon -カノン- 第17話 「姉と妹の無言歌 ～Lieder ohne worte～」 (Sisters' Silent Song)
Shiori's arc is unexpectably late. So Ayu and Nayuki's arc will be handled simutaneously ?
With the passing of Ep12... I wonder how they will settle Kuze? I would love to see either Mai or Sayuri, or even better, both, lay the smackdown on him later on. :) Especially if we can get Sayuri to go Balalaika on Kuze. :heh:
Heh.
Kuze had some good point there. If you're a delinquent, then showing up at a ball isn't going to score any points. Let's face it. She's been blamed for destroying school property. No one's caught her red-handed so that's prob why she's still in school and not in jail. Now, she's caught red-handed. Suspension is the least of her concerns right now.
I'm also with aliensporebomb on this.
Ayu's dad could be at work or at the hospital visiting Ayu's real self. I doubt that she's a ward of the state. Chibi Ayu was dressed to good and had too much freedom. Even sick Ayu is in a nice hospital and not a nursing home. Someone other than the nice people of that city is paying the bills imo.
Why are we using spoiler tags here?
With the passing of Ep12... I wonder how they will settle Kuze? I would love to see either Mai or Sayuri, or even better, both, lay the smackdown on him later on. :) Especially if we can get Sayuri to go Balalaika on Kuze.
I'm pretty sure they'll give Yuuichi a few more scenes where he's putting Kuze in his place. Shame - i like Kuze as a character.
After some consideration, I am going to speculate the following story skeleton for the rest of Kanon(2006).
- Mai's arc will be resolved, but either Sayuri or Mai will end up in hospital. If KyoAni wants to be 'nice', the hospitalised person will be Sayuri. If not... then we are going to get that gut-wrenching scene of Mai attempting suicide.
- The hospitalisation of either one is important, because it will prompt Yuuichi to make a hospital visit. From episode one, it has been revealed to the viewer that Yuuichi does not like hospitals, so he will need a compelling reason to enter one, which will then naturally lead to the discovery of...
- ... Shiori. Her arc is the next logical step, and without outside forces to push him along, Yuuichi will never know that Shiori is actually being hospitalised, since Kaori won't talk about her, her classmates know nothing about her, and Shiori lies about her condition in order to live out her fantasy world/life with Yuuichi.
- Shiori's arc gets resolved.
- Akiko gets the smackdown by a car.
- Nayuki's arc starts, and Yuuichi finally realises what a jerk he has been towards her. Leeching off her money, taking her presence for granted, constantly failing to keep his promises to her, etc...
Nayuki however, still concedes Yuuichi to Ayu. This is all but a foregone conclusion, and leads to the next step,
- Yuuichi visits Ayu's school and the truth is revealed. Ayu 'disappears'.
- Distraught, Yuuichi later learns from Akiko about Ayu and races to the hospital to see if the 'coma girl' is still there. He has the wishing doll by now, by the way.
- Da-dum, da-dum! What will be his final wish?
~~~~ ~~~~
Random Thoughts
At this point, KyoAni can still be a sadistic bastard and kill off most of the cast. If they really do pull it off, I would applaud their guts and hope they bought fire insurance.
.
Mishio can make a reappearance in the ending episodes by being a counsellor to Yuuichi as he grapples with the final wish. I really hope this happens.
.
While not high on my list, the death of Shiori would be fitting in my opinion, and make for a much more poignant tale.
.
I really, really, REALLY WANT AYU TO DIE. Not because I hate her or anything, but because it is 'in my not so humble opinion' that the story will be so much the better for it.
As Makoto's arc has shown us, a miracle is not always all cuddles and joy. It can be a very bittersweet thing. Ayu's miracle was that she managed to spiritually manifest herself to interact with Yuuichi during her coma.
We can tag on self-sacrifice to Ayu's traits by using up her last wish to save someone else( namely Akiko). This is not a bad thing, and will forever enshrine Ayu as a good girl.
PLEASE, KyoAni. PLEASE! MAKE AYU DIE! :upset: I know you're capable to heart-wrenching feats, due to Air and TSR, so please make my wish come true!
Cheers.
kingdom_elladrel
2006-12-27, 23:53
PLEASE, KyoAni. PLEASE! MAKE AYU DIE! :upset: I know you're capable to heart-wrenching feats, due to Air and TSR, so please make my wish come true!
Cheers.
I agree with all of what you've mentioned, especially this last part.
If it was up to me, I would most definitely have Ayu die in the story. Why this is so when she just happens to be my favourite girl in the anime? Before I get flamethrowers launched by the "my favourite girl must win" fanboys thrown at me, consider this:
If Ayu were to die, her story and this new Kanon series would be even greater than it already is. It would be far more dramatic and memorable than it already is as well.
I seem to remember a game from the previous century called Final Fantasy 7 where a certain beloved you-know-who dies. It would be similar in this case. Ayu would be forever remembered and immortalized in the hearts of most if not all Kanon fans and perhaps many other anime fans in general.
There would be much outcry and gnashing of teeth. But in time, people will accept her death and hold her close to their hearts for as long as anime exists. Well, hopefully anyway, but it's a pretty good possibility, I think.
relentlessflame
2006-12-28, 00:01
This may come as a surprise to some of you, but if you have been paying attention, Shiori and Ayu have NEVER met each other yet.What about the scene in episode 2 where Ayu, wanting to hug Yuuichi, missed and rammed into a tree instead, causing the snow to fall on Shiori? Maybe that's more of an "encounter" than a "meeting" though.
For what it's worth, here's to hoping they stick to the endings in the game...
What about the scene in episode 2 where Ayu, wanting to hug Yuuichi, missed and rammed into a tree instead, causing the snow to fall on Shiori? Maybe that's more of an "encounter" than a "meeting" though.
For what it's worth, here's to hoping they stick to the endings in the game...
Excuse me while I go find a bridge to jump off.
"I FAIL!" :dots:
Speculation Edit in Progress
kingdom_elladrel
2006-12-28, 00:08
What about the scene in episode 2 where Ayu, wanting to hug Yuuichi, missed and rammed into a tree instead, causing the snow to fall on Shiori? Maybe that's more of an "encounter" than a "meeting" though.
For what it's worth, here's to hoping they stick to the endings in the game...
Crap. I forgot about that, too. My memory is failing, age is getting the better of me. :heh:
Speculation has been edited to reflect the necessary changes. I decided to give Akiko a bigger role in it, since there has been hints throughout the series that Akiko knows more about the Ayu situation than she is letting on.
Cheers.
Almost a coin flip for me.... Nayuki's sacrifice.... or Ayu's sacrifice. Both are pretty compelling if properly written. The mystery about Akiko for me has always been her reticience at speaking up or providing illumination when she obviously has grasped the situation first. Talk about extreme passivity...
Almost a coin flip for me.... Nayuki's sacrifice.... or Ayu's sacrifice. Both are pretty compelling if properly written. The mystery about Akiko for me has always been her reticience at speaking up or providing illumination when she obviously has grasped the situation first. Talk about extreme passivity...
My memory is fuzzy on this one, but from I remember and understand, Akiko was worried that if she dumped too much information on Yuuichi, it would trigger another bout of post-traumatic response.
Yuuichi was pretty screwed up emotionally from the Ayu incident, and it took him a long time before he recovered from it( suppressing the memories in the process).
Akiko decided to allow Yuuichi to remember himself at his own pace, so as to 'minimise' the impact when it happens. It's just that, as life tends to do, a lot of s*** happens later on( like Akiko's accident) and the impact was still devastating to Yuuichi.
KyoAni has been doing this in the anime series, by showing us Yuuichi's recollection of the past in bits and pieces.
Cheers.
I don't see what Nayuki is sacrificing other than a childhood fantasy. It seems one-sided to me. Even in those flashbacks so far, Yuichi really didn't look to be interested in her. 7 years is alot of time. He officially moved on when he met Ayu imo. Any normal female would have moved on by now. Any heartbreak that she has is her own fault imo, especially with what he actually thinks about her.
This show is about miracles. So Ayu dying wouldn't bring any miracles. With Mai's hinting in ep. 13, she's probably going to survive. This title has to sell. It's a good promo for the PS3 game, so they aren't going to mess with what works.
Besides, to bring this title over to R1, Ayu has to survive and be with Yuichi to distinguish Kanon 2k6 from Rumbling Hearts.
Miracles do not necessitate that the recipient must not die or have a sappy ending... and Kanon has been very explicit in this aspect. That was part of the point in having Makoto's arc.
Makoto's miracle was that she turned into a Human girl, despite being a fox.
Ayu's miracle was that she managed to spiritually manifest herself outside of her comatose body.
Shiori's miracle would be her survival after her birthday( although I'm crossing my fingers that she croaks).
Mai's miracle... well, not so much as miracle as supernatural powers.
Nayuki? Nayuki got no miracle, yo; and this is where Ayu's sacrifice can come into play. By surrendering her last wish to make sure that Akiko lives.
Why should Kanon play any differently just because of RHearts? Kanon should just play by its' own rules and play by its' own strengths. The moment you start catering to market forces, you start to lose sight of the story.
Cheers.
houkoholic
2006-12-30, 03:16
Mai's miracle... well, not so much as miracle as supernatural powers.
There is a miracle in Mai's story......
Her friendship with Sayuri brought her back to live a normal life.
There is a miracle in Mai's story......
Her friendship with Sayuri brought her back to live a normal life.
I wouldn't really call that a miracle.
'Power of Love' and all that jazz maybe, but not a miracle.
Narf.
houkoholic
2006-12-30, 03:59
I wouldn't really call that a miracle.
'Power of Love' and all that jazz maybe, but not a miracle.
Narf.
Well, except for the fact that Mai tried to commit suicide and was indeed saved by Sayuri...........
Well, except for the fact that Mai tried to commit suicide and was indeed saved by Sayuri...........
I'll wait and see how KyoAni handles that scene first before I comment on the 'miracle-ness' of it. Unless Sayuri glows with 'mahou' and stuff, the saving is well within the realm of known reality, and not something inexplicable.
To me, a miracle is something that cannot be explained by ordinary means.
Cheers.
Actually, thats not just to you, that *is* the definition of a miracle. Just ignore the crowd of people in the news that abuse the term. :)
Heh heh. Yep. Gotta wait for that scene first to see. Hmm....
For what it's worth, here's to hoping they stick to the endings in the game...
Not too long ago I was wondering what kind of people play hentai games... :heh:
Meophist
2006-12-30, 16:35
To me, a miracle is something that cannot be explained by ordinary means.I'm not too sure about what "ordinary means" is, but I think everything can be explained. To me, a miracle is something that happens of which the probability is so low, that it is generally considered zero. An event that is not impossible or unexplainable but simply extremely improbable. Something so unlikely that explanations seem too far-fetched to actually happen. That's what a miracle is to me.
But then again, I perscribe to the thought that if it couldn't happen, it won't.
relentlessflame
2006-12-30, 17:01
Not too long ago I was wondering what kind of people play hentai games... :heh::heh: Well, keep in mind that the game also comes in a number of all-ages varieties -- it's not only a "hentai game". The reason that works is because the game is far more focused on the storyline than on any erotic content -- even people who have played the game would tell you that the H scenes are almost an afterthought. The all-ages versions get rid of the adult content, and are arguably no worse off for it. So, for what it's worth, I don't think there's anything shameful about playing Kanon -- and a lot of people have played it. Somewhat off-topic, but there you have it.
Nayuki? Nayuki got no miracle, yo; and this is where Ayu's sacrifice can come into play. By surrendering her last wish to make sure that Akiko lives.
Cheers.
But I read that Akiko lives in Ayu's scenario anyway. So, if the walkthru was correct, then that's a moot point. Then we are back to Ayu's waking up as the last potential "miracle" imo.
A Rumbling Hearts-like ending (coma girl loses guy to blue-haired girl) won't increase its marketibility since RH is now released in R1. It's gotta be different to sell. Besides, Ayu is doing all the work so far.
:heh: Well, keep in mind that the game also comes in a number of all-ages varieties -- it's not only a "hentai game". The reason that works is because the game is far more focused on the storyline than on any erotic content -- even people who have played the game would tell you that the H scenes are almost an afterthought. The all-ages versions get rid of the adult content, and are arguably no worse off for it. So, for what it's worth, I don't think there's anything shameful about playing Kanon -- and a lot of people have played it. Somewhat off-topic, but there you have it.
Probably one of the earlier cases of needing a story to go with erotic content and ?accidently? writing it so well that the erotic content is unnecessary and even considered lame. These days, there are actually a fair number of "all ages" visual novels (I have trouble calling them "games" as such).
relentlessflame
2006-12-30, 19:23
Probably one of the earlier cases of needing a story to go with erotic content and ?accidently? writing it so well that the erotic content is unnecessary and even considered lame.Well, for what it's worth, most would argue that it's quite the other way around (focus on the story, and needing ero content in order to ensure it would sell), but that's a discussion for another thread.
I'm not too sure about what "ordinary means" is, but I think everything can be explained. To me, a miracle is something that happens of which the probability is so low, that it is generally considered zero. An event that is not impossible or unexplainable but simply extremely improbable. Something so unlikely that explanations seem too far-fetched to actually happen. That's what a miracle is to me.
But then again, I perscribe to the thought that if it couldn't happen, it won't.
Well, the classic example would be Makoto's 'rebirth'. It can be explained via spiritual means( or to put it bluntly, magic), but it is not something that can be explained normally, because it is something extraordinary.
Something unthinkable, but it still happened.
But I read that Akiko lives in Ayu's scenario anyway. So, if the walkthru was correct, then that's a moot point. Then we are back to Ayu's waking up as the last potential "miracle" imo.
A Rumbling Hearts-like ending (coma girl loses guy to blue-haired girl) won't increase its marketability since RH is now released in R1. It's gotta be different to sell. Besides, Ayu is doing all the work so far.
So Ayu gets two miracles then? Hardly seems fair to Nayuki. :p
Anyway, I don't really understand why you feel the need to compare Kanon to RHearts. At what point have I talked about a Nayuki ending? Is it so criminal for Ayu to sacrifice herself to save Akiko?
Dead Ayu != Nayuki Ending
Please keep that in mind.
I am merely stating the possible miracle routes for each of the girls. I have never talked about which girl I wanted to end up with Yuuichi( because if I did, it would have been Mai... Nayuki is like... 4th on my list, after Mai, Sayuri and Ayu). Why don't I? Well... that's because I already know that it is just a pipe-dream at this point; but hey, you know what? If Yuuichi does end up with Mai, now THAT, would be a miracle to me. ;)
Anyway, back to the marketability issue. I don't really see your point. Shared plots, no matter how little, or how much, has always been around, and it has never really affected a title's sales if the title is strong on its' own points.
RHearts is RHearts.
Kanon is Kanon.
Why should Kanon care about what RHearts is about? Would first-time audiences even know that Ayu is a coma-girl? If you're not a first-time audience, would you even care about the similarities of Kanon and RHearts?
RHearts' story took a sharp turn at Ep02. Kanon made the drop at Ep07. RHearts has no deaths, Kanon does( and possibly more than one). RHearts has a true love triangle, Kanon has none( because Nayuki's love is one-sided). RHearts has no supernatural elements, Kanon has plenty. RHearts is mainly set in the adult years, Kanon is set in the high-school years. RHearts has infidelity, Kanon has none.
Shall I go on? The list of differences is staggering.
It's like saying that Antz and A Bug's Life are the same because they both feature ants. They're not, and the same goes for RHearts and Kanon.
They are different. Your concerns about Kanon's marketability are misplaced.
Cheers.
Kinny Riddle
2006-12-31, 07:53
Finally I can read some of the quite interesting speculation in this thread after clearing the game completely before the new year (I saved Ayu for last).
Do you know how hard it is to resist clicking on the spoiler tags even in the episode discussion threads? lol Now I
Well, for what it's worth, most would argue that it's quite the other way around (focus on the story, and needing ero content in order to ensure it would sell), but that's a discussion for another thread.
Couldn't agree less. For once I actually thought that the ero-scenes actually got in the way of the pacing of the story, especially Makoto's. (Though I'm not complaining about the CGs. :D )
Response to Skane's message (Too large to quote and I'm lazy. ;) ): Actually in Region 1, RH and Kanon are compared and seen as quite similar on a superficial level with Kanon getting more of a beatdown. That's why I emphasize that Kanon has to be perceived as different for it to sell here. These type of titles are not going to sell alot to first timers here without the input from the ones that have seen the series.
Ayu interacting with everyone as an astral projection really isn't a miracle imo. It's a bridge for her to get to the miracle because she has alot of issues to overcome. Waking up after 7 years in a coma is the miracle imo.
Nayuki is depressed and needs a swift kick in the a** or another suitable wake up call to reality (Akiko pounding some sense in her.) and not a miracle imo. Miracles are rare things and should be dished out to those who truly deserve them imo. Akiko definitely needs to survive, so the accident doesn't need to be as severe and she can recoup by her own powers imo.
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I heard that too that the ero scenes in Kanon interfered with the storyline.
Response to Skane's message (Too large to quote and I'm lazy. ;) ): Actually in Region 1, RH and Kanon are compared and seen as quite similar on a superficial level with Kanon getting more of a beatdown. That's why I emphasize that Kanon has to be perceived as different for it to sell here. These type of titles are not going to sell alot to first timers here without the input from the ones that have seen the series.
Exactly where is(are) RHearts( hereinafter KGnE) and Kanon being compared? What websites are bemoaning the possible similarities between the two anime series? Links please.
Kanon getting a beatdown? Are you sure about that? Kanon is very well known amongst otaku culture, and is considered a classic. It spawned the well-known meme, "Sad Girls in Snow".
We're not talking about some new kid on the block here. Kanon has history. If anything, KGnE was probably influenced by Kanon( in terms of game material). After all... Kanon came first, and set a milestone/standard in ero-games.
Almost everywhere you go, you will hear a lot of people talking about Kanon favourably. There are even many who initially snubbed it, but are now converts to the story. It is that good.
If a customer is not smart enough to do some basic research( like, you know... read the back of the DVD cover...), I don't really think there is a real issue with Kanon's storyline here.
Have you seen the basic summaries for KGnE and Kanon? Hardly the same stuff, and if you are not a newcomer to the Kanon's storyline, there is no question on the differences between the two anime series.
Simply put, there are so MANY things to talk about Kanon, besides the ending. Makoto's death, Mai's issues, Shiori's last dance, Yuuichi's GAR-ness, etc...
Not to mention... it is KyoAni who's making it. That's brandname power for you, especially with SHnY leading the flagship now.
Ayu interacting with everyone as an astral projection really isn't a miracle imo. It's a bridge for her to get to the miracle because she has alot of issues to overcome. Waking up after 7 years in a coma is the miracle imo.
Nayuki is depressed and needs a swift kick in the a** or another suitable wake up call to reality (Akiko pounding some sense in her.) and not a miracle imo. Miracles are rare things and should be dished out to those who truly deserve them imo. Akiko definitely needs to survive, so the accident doesn't need to be as severe and she can recoup by her own powers imo.
Well, that's your opinion, so I'll just have to disagree with you here and leave it at that.
Cheers.
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ADD] Whoops, wrote so much that I forgot my initial reason for coming in here.
How badly do you think KyoAni will injure Sayuri in Ep14? :heh: Some of the sharper speculators have already begun to fear for her, and I personally wonder how much blood they will show.
Narf.
relentlessflame
2006-12-31, 12:22
Couldn't agree less. For once I actually thought that the ero-scenes actually got in the way of the pacing of the story, especially Makoto's. (Though I'm not complaining about the CGs. :D )I think you actually got the point of what I was saying totally backwards, as that is exactly what I meant. :heh: The game revolves around the story (that's the focus), and the H CGs felt tacked on to try to get the game to sell (because there was a thought that it wouldn't sell without 18+ content). The original comment I was replying to (to give you the context) was suggesting that the game started with a focus on H content, and the story grew around it to eclipse it. My point is that most would argue that that's not the case here, which is what you said. So we were actually saying the same thing in totally opposite ways. :heh:
Here's the link to the beatdown (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2006-10-22), Skane. There's also a forum discussion thread with the link at the bottom.
Hmmm, I *live* in Region 1 and haven't seen these woes of comparison between RH/KGNE and Kanon mentioned by anyone (which only means we probably don't frequent the same paths). But I'd have to call "timeline inverse" on most of them ("wow, this Monkees group is a total ripoff of Smashmouth") or the typical "hmmm, they're both dramas... what a derivative" baka analysis.
edit: flipped through both the overview forum and the series forum there... didn't see any RH/KGNE comparisons to Kanon(?).
"oh... animenewsnetwork" .... they have a useful database but over the years their reviews and forums have typically been the least useful output I've encountered on any website I visit. The posters don't do their research, they often just don't like any genre outside of action, they'll often have an opinion after seeing less than one episode, and I can almost guarantee if they don't like it - it means it has depth or character development. Yeah, thats a sweeping generalization but all I find them good for is "anti-reviews". In fact, "jaded negativity" describes a lot of their reviews to the point I'm not clear on why some of them pursue the activity (Carlo, in particular, I find unhelpful in any of his reviews (even when we both like the show under review) -- rather like trying to get useful information out of a movie critic who hates fantasy about a fantasy film). I also find the hysterically lame defense of what was basically a slipshod amateur "preview" by the other editors in the Overview forum to be quite funny (especially the philosophically untenable notion that all opinions are relevant even as they are discounting the responses).
Flipping through their Kanon forum remarks yields more informed results (pro and con) ... but still lots of time inversion (e.g. seeing "injokes" from SHnY when actually the gag in SHnY came after the Kanon source material) along with confused "not original". I also see we have one or two posters trying gamely to enlighten the rest ..... I will say many of the remarks are positive in the forums than expected. Haven't seen any response to the Overview article which means they've either learned to ignore that section or don't know about it.
per "ero" vs "story" --- I imagine there's actually no way to tell which "came first" unless there's some pertinent interviews. Either way sounds equally likely to me ("management insists on ero" vs "wow, the writers came up with this great stuff but the ero kind of detracts")
Yep, those verbal protesters in that thread kept the naysaying to a minimum. ;)
Here's the link to the beatdown (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2006-10-22), Skane. There's also a forum discussion thread with the link at the bottom.
I do not see any comparisons being made between RHearts and Kanon... and do you know how much that article was ridiculed over here when it first came out? Check out the General Discussions thread for the reasons why.
No credibility. Hence, no dice, compadre.
One critic does not make an anime fall( especially an ill-informed one). Do you read AnimeBlogs? It is a far bigger community than AnimeNewsNetwork, and the overall reception to Kanon has been overwhelmingly positive.
Kanon is more or less the most talked about anime right now on the AnimeBlog community, going neck to neck with Code Geass. Death Note was hyped a lot at first, and it is still popular, but the frenzy over Death Note has died down a bit.
Kanon IS popular, and the majority who have watched it have enjoyed it.
If nobody in the USA wants to license it, that's because they're stupid, not because Kanon is superficially similar to KGnE.
Again, apples and oranges are both fruits and contain vitamin C, but so what?
Cheers.
Kanon IS popular, and the majority who have watched it have enjoyed it.
If nobody in the USA wants to license it, that's because they're stupid, not because Kanon is superficially similar to KGnE.
American producers won’t take a chance on such a story as Kannon. It isn’t in the Disney style where it has silly and comical sidekicks. It is in the WB style where you have blunt in-the-camera-gags and jokes. Its not HB with just plain sillyness. It isn’t a Pixar with supper attention the details of the animation and a super lame and predictable plotline with total product tie-in. It certainly isn’t the newer 2D in-your-face-attitude-and-bad-art that you see on Adult Swim these days.
The bottom line is that in the US, the producers consider all animation strictly for kids only. If it isn’t styled like Disney, WB, HB, or PIXAR, it will probably not be made.
I do think that Adult Swim would do better to have the Japanese versions of shows like Kannon, or Air instead of the crap they have now: Squidbilly, ATHF, Metalocolypse, Tom goes to the Mayor, AssyMgGee, etc. But it will not happen overnight and that’s the problem for US TV, ratings must move instantly or a show is dead.
Basically, Kannon is just too deep for the majority of American audiences, especially today’s 20 somethings. (Note, if you are a 20 something and on the board, you are not like most and you understand.)
Actually, if producers consider animation for kids only, how come things like KGNE get licensed? Many anime, movies or series, licensed so far are not just for kids. If someone claims that, say, Akira or Evangelion are for kids, he's seriously misinformed. If they license those, they can license Air and certainly Kanon.
American producers won’t take a chance on such a story as Kannon. It isn’t in the Disney style where it has silly and comical sidekicks. It is in the WB style where you have blunt in-the-camera-gags and jokes. Its not HB with just plain sillyness. It isn’t a Pixar with supper attention the details of the animation and a super lame and predictable plotline with total product tie-in. It certainly isn’t the newer 2D in-your-face-attitude-and-bad-art that you see on Adult Swim these days.
The bottom line is that in the US, the producers consider all animation strictly for kids only. If it isn’t styled like Disney, WB, HB, or PIXAR, it will probably not be made.
I do think that Adult Swim would do better to have the Japanese versions of shows like Kannon, or Air instead of the crap they have now: Squidbilly, ATHF, Metalocolypse, Tom goes to the Mayor, AssyMgGee, etc. But it will not happen overnight and that’s the problem for US TV, ratings must move instantly or a show is dead.
Basically, Kannon is just too deep for the majority of American audiences, especially today’s 20 somethings. (Note, if you are a 20 something and on the board, you are not like most and you understand.)
Why do people always assume that the USA Licensors are simple-minded people( and by extension, the USA citizens)? Have you actually step into a DVD store recently? The last time I was in the USA( Apr 2005), I saw titles such as GitS, Hellsing, Akira, NGE, etc... on the shelves.
Hardly kiddy fare.
Please... give some credit to the American people, and check websites such as AnimeNewsNetwork or AnimeOnDVD to do some research and see what titles have been licensed recently for the R1 region.
Cheers.
Ascaloth
2007-01-01, 13:18
Why do people always assume that the USA Licensors are simple-minded people( and by extension, the USA citizens)?
Cheers.
Because they are?
Just kidding. :D
Seriously though, these DVDs may be on American shelves.....but have you researched on how well they sell? (I haven't, and I don't intend to because I'm too lazy to do so, and would rather prefer someone else did it. :heh: )
Well, selling well is one matter and getting licensed is another. If only what sells got licensed, we'd be neck-deep in sh!tty, low-quality releases (which is NOT far from truth, just take a look at what the TV shows and what Hollywood usually produces).
~ Seriously though, these DVDs may be on American shelves.....but have you researched on how well they sell? (I haven't, and I don't intend to because I'm too lazy to do so, and would rather prefer someone else did it. :heh: )
How well they sell is a separate issue from the question of licensing them. They are related, but what I wanted to dispel is the myth that only 'kiddy-anime' get licensed.
Given the track record of anime that have been licensed, Kanon has a few things going for it.
It has beautiful animation. Beauty may be skin-deep at times, but it sells stuff. The cover of the DVD alone will catch attention.
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It has cute girls. Self-explanatory.
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It has very likeable males, to cater to the fairer side of anime-fans.
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It is done by an animation company that has a proven record, and a well-recognised name amongst anime fans.
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Speaking of which... because it IS by KyoAni, it is almost certain that Kadokawa USA will pick it up and sub-contract it to other companies.
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It has been well-received by anime veterans, and word-of-mouth will spread.
.
Etc...
Now that I have talked about the positive reasons on why Kanon will get licensed, here are some valid concerns on why Kanon may NOT get licensed. You know, just to be fair and show that I am not a one-sided raving lunatic.
Key themselves need to be convinced to surrender some of their rights to Kanon. They are after all, the original creators of Kanon.
These rights include the MUSIC in Kanon, since KyoAni has been faithful and adapted it into the anime; so it brings about a thorny issue when it comes to licensing.
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For some inexplicable reason, SHnY BOMBS in the USA. KadoUSA will then be leery of unleashing Kanon into the market, since SHnY is by far, the more marketable of the two.
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People are turned off by the huge eyes in Kanon. :p
Cheers.
I mean licensed for TV viewing. A percentage license after expenses for DVD distro is a far cry than a TV license where sponsor’s dollars are riding on that timeslot.
Its not a issue of producers or audiences being ‘stupid’ it more about what they are used to. Most Americans think of animation as cartoons which are for kids. Producers and studios are just interested in proven strategies for profit. They are reluctant to gamble on new products.
We know they are not for kids but we are anime fans. To 95% of the US, anime = cartoons = just-for-kids. Add in that much is lost with an English translation and its DOA.
Take a look at Inuyasha. A wildly successful show around the World except the US. It’s a neat show but how many DVD were really sold? What about merchandising? See any Inuyasha dolls in Toys-R-Us?
Its more of an issue of marketability. We know Kannon is a great show, but compared to Reality TV and the stupid shows on US TV, do you think it will capture its timeslot in 1 or 2 episodes? In today’s TV ratings game, it has one or 2 shows to make it or it is yanked.
A couple of great TV shows were Space: Above and Beyond, Firefly, Going to California, and Homicide, Life on the Streets. All were great but they were canned because they didn’t get broad appeal. Even when fans took out full page ads in newspapers, Firefly was still canceled. Homicide, Life on the Streets even won Emmys but that couldn’t help it.
Look at Adult Swim. Look at how much Anime is on it. Its been virtually taken over by cheap crappy shows that are just junk.
In the end, its all about the $$$. As good as Kanon is, the broad American TV public just isn’t ready for it.
...These rights include the MUSIC in Kanon, since KyoAni has been faithful and adapted it into the anime; so it brings about a thorny issue when it comes to licensing.
This could be a VERY important point. From what I know, it hung up the VHS release of Heavy Metal for years.
Network executives have historically shown themselves to be jawdroppingly stunningly stupid -- smash hits are the exception and usually shot down when the next boss in the cycle wants to wave his cahoneys. There is also the more difficult to track concept that it isn't pure eyeballs that count for ratings --- its *which* eyeballs (the ones with the bigger wallets). Unfortunately, this is as likely to get you trash as quality since the phrase "more money than brains" drives a lot of things around here (my area even has two or three districts we've nicknamed "More Money Than Brains" avenue, condos, acres.
These 30-50 something usually males have absolutely no clue about the stuff they manage -- so if you want anime on your channel... yell harder at the local cable company about carrying japanese stations directly.
We are at a shift point in the US.... starting to see a bit alternatives to "pokeZballuto" when anime is offered (though it is usually the really dark negative stuff), but it is really slow because "the deciders" play it so safe they usually lose.
Kinny Riddle
2007-01-01, 15:05
Network executives have historically shown themselves to be jawdroppingly stunningly stupid -- smash hits are the exception and usually shot down when the next boss in the cycle wants to wave his cahoneys. There is also the more difficult to track concept that it isn't pure eyeballs that count for ratings --- its *which* eyeballs (the ones with the bigger wallets). Unfortunately, this is as likely to get you trash as quality since the phrase "more money than brains" drives a lot of things around here (my area even has two or three districts we've nicknamed "More Money Than Brains" avenue, condos, acres.
These 30-50 something usually males have absolutely no clue about the stuff they manage -- so if you want anime on your channel... yell harder at the local cable company about carrying japanese stations directly.
We are at a shift point in the US.... starting to see a bit alternatives to "pokeZballuto" when anime is offered (though it is usually the really dark negative stuff), but it is really slow because "the deciders" play it so safe they usually lose.
Didn't kj1980 once said something about Japanese network executives being similar? And that the anime studios actually pay the networks to have the anime series aired in the first place? Basically a very expensive commercial for the studios, in which they hope they could break-even and profit from various merchandises, notably DVD sales and figurines, etc. Fortunately for them, otakus have a well-proven track record for their willingness to part with their money.
Anyway, we're getting off topic here. Isn't this thread supposed to be about the discussion of the plot of Kanon for those who've beat the game or watched the Toei version, and how Kyo-Ani plans to continue weaving all the story threads together?
relentlessflame
2007-01-01, 15:26
Don't want to lead this further off-topic, but one little bit of fact-checking just as an FYI. Speaking of which... because it IS by KyoAni, it is almost certain that Kadokawa USA will pick it up and sub-contract it to other companies.The Kanon anime isn't published or distributed by Kadokawa, but by Pony Canyon -- there's no relation to Kadokawa USA. Even if SHnY does well, it doesn't necessarily increase the odds of the franchise being over by anyone. All in all, the licensing cost for Key properties is just too large at this point compared to predicted sales.
aye, you are correct about what kj said.. and correct about us drifting off topic.
Whether or not it makes fans of particular paths happy, I'm relatively pleased with the interweaving we've seen so far and the addition of the realistic notion that these girls don't exist in separate universes but interact on their own with each other as well as Yuuichi ..... its always been a bit of a complaint of mine with the sorts of games these derive from. They usually fail to explore the impact on the other paths if you select one path.
Slightly off-topic: Pony Canyon is the distributor of the anime but somehow I still think that Kadokawa would be the only one able to bring Kanon over as a package (manga, novel, anime, music, game, models etc.) and find appropriate placement. The goal for these guys is to find profit for all the Kanon merchandise, like what's happening with TMoS right now. Ditto for Air.
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Back to the discussion.....
But the damage has been localized to Yuichi so far even though Makoto affected more people. Few effects from Makoto's "leaving" on Ayu. Yuichi still hasn't recovered fully yet (voice breaking in ep. 13, irrational thinking ep. 12,13). Mishio not seen in the anime anymore. Nayuki asleep. What about Akiko? She hasn't had alot to say since Makoto left either.
It's still like some aspects are dropped as soon as the arc concludes.
relentlessflame
2007-01-01, 17:30
Slightly off-topic: Pony Canyon is the distributor of the anime but somehow I still think that Kadokawa would be the only one able to bring Kanon over as a package (manga, novel, anime, music, game, models etc.) and find appropriate placement. The goal for these guys is to find profit for all the Kanon merchandise, like what's happening with TMoS right now. Ditto for Air.Well... not that I want to prolong this side-topic any further but... no, it can't really work like that so easily. Kadokawa have a controlling interest in nearly everything SHnY -- they publish the books, the manga, commissioned and distributed the anime, license the figures, etc. It's basically all theirs to sell. Whereas the only company in a similar position with Kanon/AIR would have to be Key themselves, and even then by extension. By the time Kadokawa or any other company paid all the stakeholders their licensing fees to do a cross-media blitz (keep in mind the value of the Key brand is near-stratospheric), it'd have to be damn-near best-selling in R1 to get a profit. That's why I don't think it's any more or less likely for Kadokawa or anyone else to bring it over any time soon.
Anyway, now back to your regularly-scheduled discussion... Sorry for prolonging the side-topic.
Well, time will tell whether or not Kanon gets licensed for R1 distribution. :) I'm pretty confident it can happen, so we'll just have to wait and see. One thing that can help Kanon's case would be word of mouth in the anime conventions. If American fans create enough buzz in the cons, it would make an impact on the companies' decisions.
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Right, with that out of the way...
How badly will KyoAni maul Sayuri this time? :heh: Toei was vague about how Sayuri got injured... so will KyoAni be graphic about it? I know at least one badger who would go completely ballistic when that key scene is shown. :heh:
For those wondering about how graphic KyoAni can be, refer to the throat-slitting scene in FMP!:TSR for an example. :D
Cheers.
houkoholic
2007-01-02, 00:29
Very unlikely that Kanon will get licensed. It's not that the licensors have no interest in it, it's actually the other way around - the licensee has no interest in selling it to them. It's fairly well known throughout the world (literally) that Key demands ridiculous amounts of money for their IPs, both their games and anime. Many software licensors (Chinese and English) have reportedly approached Key for licenses of the Kanon and AIR games, but none turned out fruitful due to the money Key demands. Most appoints it to the fact that Key has an unrealistically high expectation of their IP generating the same amount, if not more, of revenue overseas as it did in Japan, which as we all know is impossible no matter what due to number of factors. The more buzz generated at convention will only inflat Key's expectations (and hence, demanding price), not going to help the cause at all.
It would be expensive and a risk for the company that undertakes it, but the master international licenser route is probably the most efficient way to go imo. It would take extremely deep pockets and a big organization to pull that off. Hey, if Shuffle! can be shopped around here, then so should Kanon imo. :)
Another thing that they could do is just have an R4 or R2 Europe announcement first to jumpstart R1 negotiations. R1 would be under serious pressure from the fans here and would only have a short time before the target population would just buy the R4 or R2 Europe and not bother waiting for an R1 version imo. (like what's happening with Monster.)
But that's after someone sits Key down and gives them a reality check. ;)
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Well, then Sayuri's recovery will be "miraculous" then. Here's hoping for a realistic and graphic injury. Can't have a repeat of the bucket and fire extinguisher scene, you know. ;)
Houkolic is correct... Key's attitude towards international sales has always been a bit "odd?" (deluded?) in the value of their product overseas, although I suspect its just their "polite" way of saying they are completely uninterested in overseas sales.
I can't remember where I heard this, but it seems Key and many other producers are still trying to wrap their heads around the idea that someone outside of Japan has any interest in this stuff at all. Something to do with it being essentially Japanese so why would non-japanese be interested or some such other ethnocentric reasoning :) :)
Devil Doll
2007-01-02, 19:03
Kanon stuff only in this posting...
The interleave aspect (which I link the name "Kanon" of this series to) is exactly while I prefer the story setup of Kanon 2k2 to the 2k6 version so far (while art, animation, character development of 2k6 are of course superior).
Having one girl after another drop out of the story like 2k2 did, while not that elegant, is the most plausible way of giving each character one climax episode. Having two characters share their climax episode would have made their story resolution less impactful IMHO.
What's more, Makoto couldn't have done anything significant after vanishing, Shiori's story resolution will put her into hospital again, and Mai's story resolution will put her into Sayuri's custody. It actually makes sense to remove these three girls from the scene.
As for the story development I can't see how 2k6 will be less sequential than 2k2 - this time they have removed Makoto much earlier than they did in 2k2 (where she was in episode 10 and the third girl).
Nayuki is the one character to bind all these stories together, even more so as she obviously remembers the past (when Makoto was gone in 2k6 Nayuki asked Yuuichi whether he remembers his past now - that rang a bell for me). Nayuki shone throughout 2k2, she was the silent hero of the show and thus my favourite character: She joined Yuuichi in the schoolyard scene with the wild dog when the boy protected Shiori; she actively helped in the Shiori/Kaori arc; she was the driving force behind the excavation project for the little doll (and that's after having observed Yuuichi kissing Ayu! The position of the movie episode within the series was just perfect in 2k2 while it was way too early in 2k6 to provide any romantic development between Ayu and Yuuichi). And after confessing to Yuuichi through the frog device, she did the heroic deed in episode 13. Letting Nayuki play her original game arc (narcolepsy, I hear) will completely spoil that great potential.
Spending five complete episodes on Makoto was painful for me because I never cared about that brat in 2k2. The 2k6 version finally made her turn into a lovable pet - but not into a human character with severe issues like the four other girls. (Evangelion, anyone? Haibane Renmei?) Then again, dealing with that "least significant" issue at first makes kind of sense, assuming the four other substories are going to be more heart-rending than the one of the fox.
I would have preferred to see more interaction between Makoto and Ayu - these two should be as compatible as you get, being the two "children" of this show. But once Makoto became the focus, Ayu mysteriously disappeared from the stage; I am sad how they missed this great opportunity of "interweaving".
Mai being able to sense supernatural beings makes her kind of a miko now, instead of a shy girl in her shell which she actually is (and only Sayuri can ultimately cure her, not even Yuuichi unless he chooses her as his girlfriend). That kind of linking the stories together isn't of my liking: Makoto being a kitsune is a cultural element, Mai being able to create demons is her own psychological issue. I wouldn't call these two "compatible" - but that's what 2k6 chose to do, so be it. One downside of this change is that it made Mishio almost redundant; then they showed Yuuichi and Mishio actually team up a lot more than in 2k2, only to drop Mishio completely from here on (which hurts even more than it did in 2k2).
I have hopes for 2k6 providing me with more background material about Mai's demons, and with the whole Sayuri/Kuze story that might cover a number of episodes this time. Therefore it was was a good idea to let Kitagawa do his 'stunt' after the butoukai as we need more of these student council sessions anyway. And didn't Mai say something like it were five demons? I was completely stunned when she named a number about that.
Shiori's story is where 2k6 did one thing right that 2k2 did wrong - spoiling Shiori's family name too early. In 2k2 it took Yuuichi quite some time to get access to Kaori, which was hardly plausible even though he had Makoto at home and to care for Mai at night. Then again, how long can you delay Shiori's story given her behaviour (eating ice in the cold, and carrying lots of medications around)? Having Shiori undergo surgery now and still die might be one of the potential surprises of this story to come, providing a shock to the audience.
Ayu doesn't actually have to "win" Yuuichi in the end; she doesn't even have to be the last story told. With Yuuichi's appearance being so much more manly in 2k6 and Ayu acting even more childishly in 2k2 I'd find it even less plausible if these two were actually falling in love with each other like they did in 2k2 before Ayu found out who she is.
I'd be positively surprised if 2k6 didn't end with Ayu being Yuuichi's girl (and even with Ayu dying). For example, I can imagine her to live on in the Minase household (say, in a wheelchair as she might have hurt her spine when falling down that tree) as Nayuki's little sister (regardless of which girl Yuuichi chose), in this case these two girls befriending each other in no time would actually make sense.
But given the OP/ED dream sequences I don't think 2k6 can reasonably end any differently than with Ayu awaking.
Yes, it might be great to have Ayu sacrifice her final "doll wish" so that Yuuichi's chosen girl could live on (what an awesome hero she would become by this!) - but would that be compatible with Yuuichi having to grant that wish?
Well, there are several girls besides Ayu who would actually be candidates for that, surviving only if Yuuichi would give them a reason to live on: Shiori, Mai (if Sayuri wouldn't play that part... how much implied yuri do you expect in 2k6?), and even Nayuki.
I'd not bet on Nayuki (the "incest variant"), and not on Mai (ripping the Mai/Sayuri team apart, although this could be a completely new path to go... w00t! Well, Mai is my favourite 2k6 character anyway after Nayuki has decided to sleep this time, instead of working herself to death like she did in 2k2). I would find it more plausible to have Yuuichi dedicate his future to Shiori (the only "real girl" after all; given her abilities Mai might still be supernatural, and how could he ever marry Nayuki?) - it's just that I have watched this anime already by the name of Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Soraand I prefer 2k6 not to copy that anime's ending.
Remember the 2k2 ending: Yuuichi didn't grant Ayu's third "doll wish" (he couldn't forget her), so this wish saved Akiko's life instead (watch the white flowers suddenly blossoming in the final scene of episode 12 - that's the moment of the one true miracle of this show). And in return Ayu got rewarded by Nayuki telling Yuuichi about her! What better "interleave" can 2k6 possibly provide than these two competitors for Yuuichi's heart saving each other's happiness?
Perhaps the word "interleave" is too strong in referring to what KyoAni is doing. However, the each arc is moving forward (like a snail race game) as it (hopefully) makes sense to do so.. and to close it out when it makes sense to do so to simplify the remainder of the stories.
Some series I've seen are completely sequential, the other girls might as well vanish into the fog -- what we're getting for the most part with 2k6 Kanon is the girl's wandering through the background when it makes sense, or one-liners that advance their story in background, or having them thread together when it makes sense (Ayu/Nayuki for example ... what is going on now makes what is going to happen even more poignant for me -- in the 2k6 version I didn't get the feeling that Nayuki sacrificed for Ayu.. just Yuuichi. If the same happens here, we'll know its because Nayuki has strong feelings for both of them).
I can't really argue that one way is better than the other because there's some truth to both views: what Devil Doll prefers does make for stronger individual stories ... but for me they're less realistic in an anime adaptation, whereas a bit of interleave gives me the feeling of a murkier real world which to Devil appears to dilute the impact. KyoAni isn't massively interleaving, its just interleaving where it makes sense (imo) and provides a more complex feel to the story.
Having Nayuki *so* involved in all the arcs isn't really what happened in the game, but it was used somewhat in the 2k2 version (for understandable reasons as it emphasized the Ayu-Nayuki circle - both had to be present for the majority of the series for the ending to be powerful) and it was completely overboard in the manga (imo :) ) where Yuuichi couldn't take a piss without Nayuki hovering around.
The problem is that both analyses and opinions are kind of based on the idea that Kanon is fundamentally a date-sim.... I think thats a partial characterization. To me, Kanon is a mystery permeated with surreal situations -- romance might be a component but it doesn't have to be. As discussed in another thread, many contend the "h-components" actually detract from the story.
Devil Doll
2007-01-02, 21:11
2k2 (with Yuuichi appearing younger) began with Yuuichi being angry about Nayuki ruining his chances of getting a girlfriend - i. e. as a dating sim. 2k6 (with Yuuichi appearing older) doesn't mention anything even close to romance until now. Both ways seem to work, with 2k6 being the more serious version and Yuuichi appearing as if he carries an unknown load upon his shoulders. Yuuichi in 2k2 appeared completely normal in the beginning only to become aware of his shocking past later - this sudden turnaround was part of what impressed me about 2k2 while 2k6 somehow tells you "this will be a tragedy" from episode 1 on.
Mai being able to sense supernatural beings makes her kind of a miko now, instead of a shy girl in her shell which she actually is (and only Sayuri can ultimately cure her, not even Yuuichi unless he chooses her as his girlfriend). That kind of linking the stories together isn't of my liking: Makoto being a kitsune is a cultural element, Mai being able to create demons is her own psychological issue. I wouldn't call these two "compatible" - but that's what 2k6 chose to do, so be it.
Personally, I've kind of liked the way they've brought Mai into the other girls' stories. Given her affinity for wild animals, I thought it quite plausible that she might subconsciously recognize some subtle hint as to Makoto's true nature. And it's not like she spelled everything out for Yuuichi...when he was looking for Makoto, all she really said was that she had a feeling Makoto might be on Monomi Hill.
It bothered me more when Yuucihi took Ayu to see her at the school, and ask about Ayu's lost item...at first, it seemed like they were setting Mai up as some kind of all-knowing psychic, which as you say is not her character at all. But, from Yuuichi's point of view, it did make sense -- he didn't have any idea why, or how, but she was able to give him a valuable clue about Makoto's whereabouts, so why not ask her about Ayu's lost item too? If Mai had actually given any kind of useful response ("Well, this time, you want to go look on that other hill...just a feeling..."), then I'd have been severely disappointed. However, I took her response as basically a polite way of saying, "Sorry, go find it yourself." I don't think she meant anything more than that, and I certainly didn't get any feeling that she knew the answer, but just didn't want to tell.
So, I can understand why Yuuichi would ask her the question, but I think her response was entirely in character for her, and no real harm was done.
Just a different view...
Devil Doll
2007-01-02, 22:24
However, I took her response as basically a polite way of saying, "Sorry, go find it yourself." I don't think she meant anything more than that, and I certainly didn't get any feeling that she knew the answer, but just didn't want to tell.Well, when Ayu was gone Mai told Yuuichi: "She's a strong girl. I couldn't wait, but she is still waiting." So Mai knows quite a lot about Ayu.
And Yuuichi: "Four more [demons] to go" - so I remembered that correctly. I still have no clue how Mai can know how many demons there will be. Then again, I didn't exactly understand why Mai knew when it was over in 2k2...
Well, when Ayu was gone Mai told Yuuichi: "She's a strong girl. I couldn't wait, but she is still waiting." So Mai knows quite a lot about Ayu.
Ah, I was forgetting that line...you're right, I can't really think of any good reason for her to know that. I suppose we could assume that as part of her personal defense mechanisms, she's developed an unusual sensitivity to the feelings of people around her (always watching out for the next person to betray her, even as she keeps them all at a safe distance) but even so, that response is just too specific...
CrowKenobi
2007-01-03, 00:37
Well, when Ayu was gone Mai told Yuuichi: "She's a strong girl. I couldn't wait, but she is still waiting." So Mai knows quite a lot about Ayu.
Ah, I was forgetting that line...you're right, I can't really think of any good reason for her to know that. I suppose we could assume that as part of her personal defense mechanisms, she's developed an unusual sensitivity to the feelings of people around her (always watching out for the next person to betray her, even as she keeps them all at a safe distance) but even so, that response is just too specific...Could it be that she knows who Yuuichi was to her and how Ayu is to him?
Could it be that she knows who Yuuichi was to her and how Ayu is to him?
That conflicts with the question she asked him at the end of Ep13. I would be perked if Mai gets to slap Yuuichi for leaving her seven years ago. :heh:
Narf.
Now *that* would be pretty interesting (Mai slapping the garbanzos out of Yuuichi for abandoning her).
I was avoiding some preparatory tax work by rummaging through my anime disk and on a lark popped up Kazahana (the epilog to 2k2) and the last full ep of the TOEI version. <sigh> the first thing that hit was how bad the drawing and art was in many parts -- but then the amazing thing was that the excellent story material got through that clutter anyway. I'd totally forgotten that Mai's headchop was a standard feature in 2k2 in response to people having a jest with her. Anyway, it was just kind of interesting watching the same characters viewed through a slightly different lense but it also made me painfully aware of what was lacking in the 2k2 production. I may have to set aside a couple of hours and watch the beginning through the Mai arc just because...
Could it be that she knows who Yuuichi was to her and how Ayu is to him?
That conflicts with the question she asked him at the end of Ep13. I would be perked if Mai gets to slap Yuuichi for leaving her seven years ago. :heh:
There could be something to that idea -- Mai, like the other girls, has locked away her memories to avoid the pain Yuuichi caused her by disappearing seven years ago. However, it's entirely possible that when they were kids, Yuuichi did tell her about playing with Ayu, and she should have heard about the tree incident as well. That knowledge has been buried ever since, but as she spends time with Yuuichi, she may be starting to remember. Even if she doesn't know everything yet, she could be seeing little fragments of memories and experiencing brief flashes of old feelings, and wondering why, as things (such as whatever little bit she knows about Ayu) bubble up from her subconscious.
That puts her "Yuuichi, who are you?" question in a somewhat different light: not a simple "Who are you?" but rather, "Who are you to be able to make me feel this way, and what exactly is going on here?"
There could be something to that idea -- Mai, like the other girls, has locked away her memories to avoid the pain Yuuichi caused her by disappearing seven years ago. However, it's entirely possible that when they were kids, Yuuichi did tell her about playing with Ayu, and she should have heard about the tree incident as well. That knowledge has been buried ever since, but as she spends time with Yuuichi, she may be starting to remember. Even if she doesn't know everything yet, she could be seeing little fragments of memories and experiencing brief flashes of old feelings, and wondering why, as things (such as whatever little bit she knows about Ayu) bubble up from her subconscious.
That puts her "Yuuichi, who are you?" question in a somewhat different light: not a simple "Who are you?" but rather, "Who are you to be able to make me feel this way, and what exactly is going on here?"
Except it wouldn't really gel with the scene at hand. :heh: Taken out of context, it is viable that it has that meaning, but... when you examine the entire scene as a whole, it is pretty straightforward that she is asking him that question because she wants to know why the demons are attacking him.
We know of course, but Mai doesn't. Hehe... I wonder what sort of punishment will Yuuichi receive in Shiori's arc? We have Makoto punching him( and attempting pranks) and Mai siccing demons on him( albeit unconsciously, and oh, throwing hard objects into his face( he has to have a face of steel to leave a facial imprint on that bucket... no serious, he left a facial imprint on that bucket. Go watch it again)).
I guess this Kanon's way of saying, "Baka! Baka! Baka!" :D
Makoto: "You ABANDONED me!"
Mai: "You... never returned."
Nayuki: "You ignored me..."
Ayu: "Zzz... ~uguu... zzz..."
Shiori: "Ah! I don't like guys like that!"
Time to make amends, Yuuichi. Time to make amends. :D
Cheers.
KenOhki'sRage
2007-01-03, 11:34
My thoughts, Nayuki is still a strong contender to "win" in the end. I feel she's been far more supportive of Yuuichi. She stood by the Makoto arc the entire way but also gave him room to help her. She's also been treated kindly on occasion, including the trip to buy strawberry sundays. Mostly though we need to remember that this is Japan not Europe or the US, marriage between cousins is not only acceptable but often ENCOURAGED. There is no incest problem between the two. It's possible (but I find it unlikely) that Yuuichi will realize how he's hurt Nayuki, realize how much she's supported him, and find himself falling in love with her.
Anything but an Ayu ending will surprise me, mostly because she IS after all the main character of the game. This is her story. Though I will admit she's much more childish in this version then before and I'm starting to believe that Yuuichi only sees her in a childish way. Especially after his date with her it looked like it was an obligatory. One thing that struck me during that date was afterwards when he said "Usually girls get all scared and cling to a guy during these kind of movies". Which makes me think he was rather disappointed by Ayu's lack of clinginess. That shows me potential attraction.
Makoto's already won. Has anyone else not noticed this? If some miracle occurs like in the Kazehana episode of 2k2 we'll get a resurrected Makoto (doubtful, it's not in the game). That means either Yuuichi will need to make himself a polygamist :twitch: or he'll find himself married to Makoto. Granted it was to fulfill her wish and all that but I've always felt Yuuichi was an honorable guy. I can't see him going back on this if a living Makoto were in the future.
Shiori's doomed. Seriously, she's my favorite girl in this version but she's hosed. She IS however the only girl he's ever asked out. Mai's dance he was invited by Sayuri while Mai was present. Mai must realize that Yuuichi only went because of this. Shiori's been asked out, albeit in some vague sort of way. Shiori's just not a popular enough character though and her "ending" will most likely being a reunification between her and her sister and fulfilling her desire to attend school with Kaori. Girlfriend material is basically 0 :(
Mai's story is coming too early. If Nayuki or Shiori were next I'd say Mai has a chance but with her following so soon at the end of Makoto's and barely 1/2 into the show she's got no chance. I can't imagine Kyoani dragging her around for 11 more episodes without resolution so she'll win with Yuuichi. She's cool and she's closer to Yuuichi now then any of the others but so was Makoto in episode 11.
Devil Doll
2007-01-03, 12:21
Which ending would satisfy the crowd out there?
I wouldn't be satisfied if Yuuichi chose a girl whom he pities. Which reduces the chances of Shiori as well as Nayuki - even when he finds out what Nayuki feels for him he never felt the same for her so far, she was clearly less important to him than Ayu. I would rather want to see Yuuichi choose a girl whom he already liked but forgot - which would then have to be Ayu or Mai. I would be fine with the more mature Yuuichi in 2k6 choosing his senpai Mai instead of the childish Ayu, that's why the current arc of 2k6 might be the most interesting one for me.
Then again, Mai's arc is indeed too early in the series, and I guess Mai is destined to stay with Sayuri if we see more of Sayuri's arc. Plus Ayu is so dominant in the OP that everything other than Ayu winning (possibly with the help of some Minase lady at the hospital; Ayu looking after Akiko during this woman's cold allowed the girl to grow in 2k2) would be a big surprise.
Nayuki being the hyperactive variant in 2k2 gave her at least some chance that Yuuichi might fall for her; if she's giving up at this point (after asking Yuuichi whether he remembers his past now) then she's out of the game for sure, she doesn't earn the victory then.
And with the "Ayu incident" causing the whole scenario of Kanon, how much additional emotional damage can Yuuichi take anyway? Not much, if we believe Akiko. So it's not too likely that we see a character die.
If Shiori were dying, which effect would that have on the relationship between Kaori and Kitawaga? Kaori would be freed from watching her dying sister every day, and Kitagawa might offer her some reasonable support (interfering in the Mai arc upgraded his role significantly). Could he possible become more than a comic relief in the end?
If Mai were committing suicide the effect on both Sayuri and Yuuichi would be devastating; if Sayuri were killed by the demons then how would Mai ever recover? I see no real alternative to the 2k2 version of her arc, with Mai actively supporting Sayuri against Kuze as a potential bonus of 2k6.
Mai is a victim (taking collateral damage of the Ayu incident) and Sayuri is her saviour - it's as simple as that. Yuuichi alone can only save Mai if he chooses her, not just by apologizing - we saw that in 2k2 already. Mai needs one person who will never abandon her.
If Nayuki would die then what effect would that have on Akiko who knows the whole story but chose to stay at the sideline?
Ayu dying would actually be the most likely candidate as she can sacrifice herself by using her last wish for someone else. Would it be logical enough to let her make the decision to give up waiting when her "astral body" observes Yuuichi falling in love with another girl? Would she be fine with Yuuichi choosing Nayuki (whom Ayu admires) or Mai (whom Ayu at least respects now)?
~ If Nayuki would die then what effect would that have on Akiko who knows the whole story but chose to stay at the sideline? ~
Eh?
What makes you think Nayuki may die? :confused: Akiko is the Death Factor in Nayuki's arc, not Nayuki herself.
As for the ending of Kanon, I am okay with anything so long as Ayu croaks. I don't care who Yuuichi ends up with if she does. Heck, he could go gallivanting into the sunset with Mishio for all I care, if Ayu bites the dust.
Cheers.
As for the ending of Kanon, I am okay with anything so long as Ayu croaks. I don't care who Yuuichi ends up with if she does. Heck, he could go gallivanting into the sunset with Mishio for all I care, if Ayu bites the dust.
Cheers.
Me too, but Ayu fans don't like that idea at all, even when it could make the series better :p And, unfortunately, judging from the OP/ED sequences, it's gonna be a replay of the 2k2 ending... Oh well... At least KyoAni makes the rest enjoyable. (Not that I didn't like Toei's version).
Me too, but Ayu fans don't like that idea at all, even when it could make the series better :p And, unfortunately, judging from the OP/ED sequences, it's gonna be a replay of the 2k2 ending... Oh well... At least KyoAni makes the rest enjoyable. (Not that I didn't like Toei's version).
1) It's KyoAni.
2) Air(TV) (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xOlC3vOeGSk)
"For the sake of the story, her life must forfeit!"
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/4029/ep03ayu6f8fps256cvk6.gif (http://imageshack.us)
"You meanies..."
Narf.
@KenOhki'sRage (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=37833)
itemized remarks ---
1) The Kazehana appearance of Makoto was a copout (I even thought that on first viewing) --- at the least it should have been more abstract and surreal if presented at all. Hopefully KyoAni won't repeat that (or at least will present it in a way more as a daydream or ethereal experience).
2) Actually cousin marriage is acceptable in most of Europe and the US too... we just keep getting confused posters from the minor parts of both areas that think the extra-restrictive rules in their neighborhood are the norm rather than the exception. Discussed to death in any thread where people freak out because two people share the same roof for a period.
3) Mai gets to win or lose for herself, not dependent on being Yuuichi's "girl" (one of the reasons I *like* Kanon --- its not really about the date-sim, its about the resolution of each situation's mystery). Although Yuuichi is clearly impressed with her (I know I am :) ). Personally I find Yuuichi handing the baton to Sayuri for Mai to be a "save" from the suicide option.
4) Shiori really wants to have her sister back (acknowledging she exists) -- that's her resolution
Despite the fact you can "play the paths" in the game to whatever, for an anime adaptation I have trouble seeing as much drama in any resolution other than either Ayu or Nayuki. Frankly, Ayu sacrificing herself for Nayuki or Nayuki sacrificing her chances for the sake of Ayu both strike me as being very powerful and I'd be good with either as I find them both noble ... though an Ayu sacrifice (being a complete sacrifice) would make me hurt as bad as I did at the end of AIR.
Actually, I'd probably have to drink myself stupid if they took each "unchosen" arc to its worst possible end. eek...
Meophist
2007-01-03, 14:45
I won't be too surprised if Makoto makes a return. Amano did seem hint at something like that anyways.
As for Ayu, I don't know. They can kill her or not, I don't think it makes it better or worse.
Well, have you seen 2k2 Kanon? Did you feel that the feeling you had that she's dead made the drama worse? I personally thought the way she was brought back was lame, but Ayu fans in particular think otherwise. I was ready for a no girl ending anyway, seemed pretty much the only true choice back then, even if Nayuki was effectively the only girl around. I thought that they couldn't have Yuuichi with Nayuki, because that ending was lacking both in drama and in the development section. But Ayu waking up... bleh... spoiled the whole series... And then appear those that preach the "story theme"...
heh, I happened to like the Ayu ending at the time (back then I wasn't aware just how tragic some of these romances could get) but mostly because of Nayuki's sacrifice. Having done some research since then (and seeing other series)... an "all the girls die and Nayuki loses her mind when her mother dies" ending is not out of the realm of possiblity, but that enters the realm of serious masochism for my viewing tastes :)
Meophist
2007-01-03, 15:06
Well, have you seen 2k2 Kanon? Did you feel that the feeling you had that she's dead made the drama worse? I personally thought the way she was brought back was lame, but Ayu fans in particular think otherwise. I was ready for a no girl ending anyway, seemed pretty much the only true choice back then, even if Nayuki was effectively the only girl around. I thought that they couldn't have Yuuichi with Nayuki, because that ending was lacking both in drama and in the development section. But Ayu waking up... bleh... spoiled the whole series... And then appear those that preach the "story theme"...Yes, I did see '02 Kanon. I don't think her waking up made the series any worse. Why? It's complicated, and I don't know how to explain it, but I don't think Ayu living was bad for the story.
Devil Doll
2007-01-03, 17:18
If Ayu hadn't awoken in 2k2 then Ayu's arc would have been identical to Makoto's arc, and Nayuki's role wouldn't have been as good as became due to her sacrifice. I'm not a fan of Ayu but by episode 12 we knew 2k2 was her show... there just had to be some reason for that to make the conclusion satisfying. The same applies to 2k6 so Ayu winning and Ayu sacrificing herself are the two plausible options IMHO.
Personally I would like 2k6 surprising me as I don't expect it to beat 2k2 if telling the same story again; so I'm fine with any number of additional casualties.
MakubeX2
2007-01-03, 18:14
Face it, this adapation is made for fans of the game in order to gain profit. (Abelit a good and high quality one that worth spending money on.)
It will go Ayu's route down right to the Epilogue no matter what, Japanese fan will cry sacrilege and it will be 2k2 Kanon again if they stray into anything else.
KenOhki'sRage
2007-01-03, 18:15
It will go Ayu's route down right to the Epilogue no matter what, Japanese fan will cry sacrilege and it will be 2k2 Kanon again if they stray into anything else.
As much as I like Shiori, I must agree.
You mean Kanon fanatics won't buy the DVDs, figures, or CDs if Ayu dies? :p LOL! I hardly believe that will happen.
MakubeX2
2007-01-03, 18:28
It's not a matter of whether Ayu dies or not, but a matter of being faithful to the original source.
2k2 fails at that and gets thrown into the abyss by the fans.
You mean 2k2 Kanon didn't do well?? Strange, cause I thought it was a perfectly good series (despite the bigger-than-necessary eyes) with a poor ending.
Oh well... I still hope KyoAni does something different with Ayu. I have the same reaction to the arcs as I had in 2k2, even with all the additions and nice KyoAni animation, so unless the ending changes, it'll be the same for me and everyone else that didn't like the 2k2 ending.
Plus, I believe KyoAni has already secured DVD sales, judging from the quality of the series so far. I doubt making the ending better by altering the so-called source will harm production, but the producers know how to milk fans so they'll do whatever brings in more cash, no matter the level of quality.
MakubeX2
2007-01-03, 18:47
To quote from another thread :-
http://www.akibablog.net/archives/2006/12/kanondvd.html
I found this hilarious.
The otakus of Akihabara and shops are celebrating the Kyoani Kanon DVD release as "The first Kanon anime" and bloggers are praising the Kyoani's version as "god send". Yes, people hate the Toei version THAT much and the Kyoani version is THAT good in the eyes of Kanon fans in Japan.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=781924&postcount=1492
KyoAni will not diviate into anything else if they do not want to cause harms for their video sales. And it's seems that way judging by how they are making Ayu out to be the central character that links everyone together.
relentlessflame
2007-01-03, 20:05
Face it, this adapation is made for fans of the game in order to gain profit. (Abelit a good and high quality one that worth spending money on.)
It will go Ayu's route down right to the Epilogue no matter what, Japanese fan will cry sacrilege and it will be 2k2 Kanon again if they stray into anything else.As blunt as that is, I have to say that I believe you're absolutely right. Being true to the game's story is what this adaptation has been about from the very moment it was given the green light. The 2002 anime did fine (it wasn't a total sales failure by any means, and was pretty fine judged as a standalone anime), but the game fans disliked it for being so different from the game. After the fans saw how faithful Kyoto Animation's adaptation of AIR was, they started thinking how nice it'd be if they'd remake Kanon faithfully as well. Seeing as the executives realized it'd be like printing money, they agreed, and here we are. There's simply no way they'll deviate from the game story -- not when the entire point of this remake was to make the game fans happy this time (reference the early Kyoto Animation interviews that talk repeatedly about being true to the game, and the 13 already-aired episodes). Like the ending or not, it is the "canon" Kanon (painful pun... unfortunate).
In short, I'm giving 100:1 odds against Skane being "okay with the ending" (as per the definition here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=787899&postcount=202)). Anyone want to take that bet? :p
CrowKenobi
2007-01-03, 21:10
In short, I'm giving 100:1 odds against Skane being "okay with the ending" (as per the definition here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=787899&postcount=202)). Anyone want to take that bet? :pWhy do I get the feeling that P.T. Barnum's old saying "There's a sucker born every minute." applies here? :D
Ascaloth
2007-01-03, 21:13
1) It's KyoAni.
2) Air(TV) (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xOlC3vOeGSk)
"For the sake of the story, her life must forfeit!"
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/4029/ep03ayu6f8fps256cvk6.gif (http://imageshack.us)
"You meanies..."
Narf.
It's KyoAni, and they did the same thing with AIR TV. So? One series is by no means a track record reliably indicating what they're going to do with their next KEY series. Besides, I haven't done so myself, but has anyone actually played the AIR game? Because my gut feeling was that KyoAni stayed true to the game in their AIR adapation as well. Which meant Misuzu was supposed to die, even in the original game, anyway.
I may well be wrong, but here's just a thought.
Well, have you seen 2k2 Kanon? Did you feel that the feeling you had that she's dead made the drama worse? I personally thought the way she was brought back was lame, but Ayu fans in particular think otherwise. I was ready for a no girl ending anyway, seemed pretty much the only true choice back then, even if Nayuki was effectively the only girl around. I thought that they couldn't have Yuuichi with Nayuki, because that ending was lacking both in drama and in the development section. But Ayu waking up... bleh... spoiled the whole series... And then appear those that preach the "story theme"...
You mean 2k2 Kanon didn't do well?? Strange, cause I thought it was a perfectly good series (despite the bigger-than-necessary eyes) with a poor ending.
Oh well... I still hope KyoAni does something different with Ayu. I have the same reaction to the arcs as I had in 2k2, even with all the additions and nice KyoAni animation, so unless the ending changes, it'll be the same for me and everyone else that didn't like the 2k2 ending.
On my part, I believe why some people didn't like the Ayu ending in 2k2 was because Toei didn't tell her story well enough. Now, as a non-Japanese reader, I naturally have not played any of the games, and thus I can't be expected to actually know what happened in the original Kanon game...but my gut feeling is that Toei did their cut-and-slash method on Ayu's storytelling as well; thus Ayu waking up seemed to come out of nowhere, and seemed to "spoil" the whole Toei series altogether.
I believe the game did a far better job at explaining away Ayu's ending...and I believe KyoAni will do the same when the time comes.
Too many posts to reply to. :eyespin: I'll just summarise all my replies and thoughts into this one post.
I used Air(TV) as an example because it sets precedence for KyoAni to not be afraid of upsetting the audience( both gamer and non-gamer) with the death of a lovable main character.
As for 'hatred', a lot of successful series have a lot of hate as well, but went on to become profitable anyway. Neon Genesis Evangelion is a classic example, where the director ignored his detractors and made NGE accordingly to his own vision. So despite the brick-bracks of the vocal minority, Gainax went on to milk the series for more than 10 years, and it is still going strong...
KGnE is another example where there were a lot of 'haters', because 'ZOMG!', Mitsuki won in the end? A lot of people hated Shuffle!'s ending, and hey, what do you know? It was still profitable enough to spawn another run.
But hey... 'hate' is kinda of a strong word to use.
I prefer to use the term, 'dislike'. It is perfectly fine to dislike something and still accept it in the end. I wasn't entirely satisfied with Canvas2's ending, but I still love the show very much, and if it ever made to R1, I would gladly buy it.
Toei's Kanon is also not that unpopular, you know. :p A lot of the repeat viewers in this forum have stated their fondness for it, despite its' flaws( no anime is ever perfect anyway, or anything for that matter).
Check out the Kanon(2002) thread sometime.
~~~~ ~~~~
Now... back to the main topic at hand. Why is it that a lot of people seem to enjoy the follow equation?
Dead Ayu = Other Girls Win
Whatever happened to the 'No Girls Win' option? Or the fact that Yuuichi may choose Ayu in the end? I am by no means an Ayu-hater. I LIKE Ayu as a character.
It just doesn't stop me from wanting her to have a semi-tragic end. :p
KyoAni will have to pull off a pretty inspired chain of events if they want me to accept Ayu's survival. If I... experience that 'cheapened' feeling again, then I am going to consider it a great loss for Kanon(2006), when it could have pulled off another epic bittersweet tragedy and perhaps... enter the pantheon of anime greats.
Cheers.
relentlessflame
2007-01-03, 23:23
I used Air(TV) as an example because it sets precedence for KyoAni to not be afraid of upsetting the audience( both gamer and non-gamer) with the death of a lovable main character.But this was already clearly identified as being neither precedent-setting or game-audience-upsetting in the slightest because...
...that's how the game ends, so everyone who played the game expected it. Kyoto Animation demonstrated zero creative license, bravery, or any sort of riskiness in going that route, and that's actually one of the reasons the game fans loved the anime so much.
P.S. Why do you end every single post with either "Cheers" or "Narf"? It's not in any way relevant to this discussion, but I've always wanted to know why you have "taglines". :heh:
Ascaloth
2007-01-03, 23:59
Whatever happened to the 'No Girls Win' option? Or the fact that Yuuichi may choose Ayu in the end? I am by no means an Ayu-hater. I LIKE Ayu as a character.
It just doesn't stop me from wanting her to have a semi-tragic end. :p
KyoAni will have to pull off a pretty inspired chain of events if they want me to accept Ayu's survival. If I... experience that 'cheapened' feeling again, then I am going to consider it a great loss for Kanon(2006), when it could have pulled off another epic bittersweet tragedy and perhaps... enter the pantheon of anime greats.
Cheers.
And once again, I'm going to say it's not totally up to KyoAni. You want an inspired chain of events, you're going to have to look at KEY. Or more specifically, what KEY did back in 1999 when they released the original Kanon game.
KyoAni is not going to put any creative license into their adaptation. That's not one of their many strengths; staying true to the original feel of the story is. Therefore, I believe what you'll eventually see in the ending of KyoAni's Kanon is how the 'canon' ending of KEY's Kanon originally is (Ayu's). If it's an inspired turn of events that makes you change your mind, it's KEY's storyline. If it still leaves you with the "cheapened" feeling, it's still KEY's storyline.
Toei failed by adding too much creative license. I believe KyoAni is going to remain faithful to the original; thus if you still don't like it at the end, then either you would never have been satisfied with the original game's canon ending in the first place, or KyoAni made Toei's mistake.
In the end, Kanon and AIR are two different things. And it's going to show.
Just my two cents.
KenOhki'sRage
2007-01-04, 00:20
I think I said this somewhere, hmmm. Well basically, it's impossible for Kanon to end completely tragically. Ayu has 1 wish left, even if she doesn't use it on herself someone gets it, in the game that person is up to Yuuichi. Whomever he likes most gets the wish, regardless of the fact that the girls will all know tragedy one ultimately wins. The only way around this is ignoring the wish.
The closest thing to absolute tragedy Skane can get would be, Shiori remains ill and presumably dies, Mai dies, Nayuki's mother remains in a coma, Ayu revives. You can substitute any girl with Ayu there but you get the point. That's as bad as it can ever get.
@ Skane
I think in terms of Kanon 2002's popularity that houkoholic & Makube are referring to the show in Japan, amongst its intended audience who bought 99% of the related merchandise. Largely, the Fans That Matter™. :)
Oh, and yes, I can't see anything other than an Ayu ending coming either, for the reasons already detailed. The fanbase & merchandising machine demand it.
-Andiyar
~ P.S. Why do you end every single post with either "Cheers" or "Narf"? It's not in any way relevant to this discussion, but I've always wanted to know why you have "taglines". :heh:
Without the aid of sound( and/or visual aids such as body language), it can be hard for me sometimes to indicate the nature of my posts without adding excessive mood-tags. I like to use sarcasm and dry-wit, but a lot of people tend to misunderstand me negatively, and it just kills the atmosphere/mood if I have to explain it all the time.
So I end each post with a single word to indicate the overall mood of my post, and to help prevent any misunderstandings. Although... it doesn't (http://www.yayapapayaz.com/handofgory/2006/06/20/strawberry-panic-12#comment-8448) always work (http://www.yayapapayaz.com/handofgory/2006/07/13/stopani15#comment-15568) all the time. ;) :heh:
~~~~ ~~~~
Anyway, with regards to the inevitability of Ayu's revival... As I mentioned before, I am willing to accept it IF KyoAni delivers an inspired chain of events after the key revelation scene in the forest.
That scene was a pinnacle of pathos, and to have Ayu hale and hearty so soon thereafter just robs it of its' intensity; or to put it bluntly, cheapened it.
To those that say that KyoAni adheres to the original material to a fault, take heed that liberties have already been taken in this adaptation of Kanon. If KyoAni were to animate the Ayu-path 100% faithfully, we would not have the anime we have right now.
What KyoAni does, and this applies to their earlier works, is to adapt a source material, while making changes to it that do not kill the spirit of the original material( due to the limitations of the episodic nature of a TV series).
A contemporary example would be the LotR Trilogy.
This is why people love KyoAni. They bring life to a written piece of work, without tarnishing it with absurdities, and still deliver new material to those who have already experienced the original stuff.
In short, even veterans can get pleasant surprises.
The path I speak of, while extreme in one sense, is still within the realm of believability in the internal consistency of Kanon.
Again, this is an adaptation of Kanon's five routes. An interleave of five different paths. We long ago left the railway of 100% faithfulness. The question now is... Will KyoAni dare to take this chance to make something really special? Or something usual?
In my opinion of course.
I am not asking for a slaughter( although I would applaud them for their courage, before plotting their deaths for killing off Mai), but neither do I want a fairytale( where once again... only Makoto bites the dust).
Cheers.
My opinion, while Ayu is my favorite female lead in Kanon, is that someone else is going to bite the bullet before all is said and done, if only, only because Makoto went first.
I have no idea who (though Ayu is up there in terms of likelyhood should I be right), but it's just a feeling I get about the series. Ayu could very well be knocked off, but it could just as easily be one of the others. However, there is no denying that a Ayu sacrifice, coming at the end of the series, would have the most impact.
(though I want badly to see Ayu's bad haircut in the 2K6 adaptation...)
Why do I suddenly fear for Akiko? Never mind, carry on.
I am honestly surprised, in a pleasant way, that they decided to allocate some time to slot in Sayuri's background story. She's almost getting as much development as the five main girls now, and in time, may even overtake Makoto. :heh:
Who knows? Maybe at the end of the season, Makoto will become the sixth girl. :heh:
Well, you should look at it this way - Sayuri's story is needed for the completion of Mai's, so they might as well go at it, and do the best they can do, that meaning adding lots of Sayuri's story.
Ascaloth
2007-01-04, 23:34
As long as they don't drop Sayuri like a hot potato like signs are indicating that they have done to Amano so far, I'll be content.
DragoonKain3
2007-01-05, 21:04
Looking at the episode count, Mai's arc will end at 15. This means that there's only 8 more episodes to go, and three heroine arcs still left to finish. For sure they're doing Shiori's storyline judging by 16's title, and if Kyoani wants to do the arc justice they'd spend at least 3 eps to do it, though chances are it would be 4.
It's already been said before, but there's no chance in hell that Kyoani would do any other girl's ending other than Ayu's. So that means that Nayuki's story would get shafted yet again, because I can't comprehend how they'll squeeze Nayuki's arc, Ayu's arc, AND the epilogue in 5, maybe 6 episodes. Which makes me sad, because being bad at languages makes me unable to see how Nayuki's arc fully turns out.
Oh well, that's what she gets for seemingly being the main 'rival' to Ayu. XD
MakubeX2
2007-01-05, 21:16
Let's have a look once more at the upcoming Ep's title
Kanon -カノン- 第15話 「かくれんぼの小奏鳴曲 ～sonatina～」 (Hidden Sonatina)
Kanon -カノン- 第16話 「真夜中の聖譚曲 ～oratorio～」(Noctural Oratorio)
Kanon -カノン- 第17話 「姉と妹の無言歌 ～Lieder ohne worte～」 (Sisters' Silent Song)
Mai's story will drag on for one more Ep, it seeems. And KyoAni had already start diving into Shiori's tale in Ep 12-13. They can wrap things up in 2-3 Ep.
Of course, it helps that Nayuki and Ayu's arc are interconnected in the game.
Devil Doll
2007-01-05, 21:58
Anyone else unhappy about Sayuri having lost her 2k2 role of preventing Mai's suicide? Plus she's indebted to Mai because of her story... 2k6 Sayuri appears to be more passive than 2k2 Sayuri, and thus less of a heroine. The Yuuichi & Mai couple scored the points instead, but with Mai's arc being almost over it looks like the next episode will have to provide some big surprises for me.
Given the amount of blood and destruction in that bath, plus Yuuichi having decided to handle the demons issue this night already... can we expect Sayuri to be up and running in no time? Nayuki already handed the catalyst for the Mai arc over to Yuuichi... will Sayuri play any significant role at all in the next episode? And if not, and the demon arc actually ends this very night, then was that all we get to see about Sayuri? Or... if that wasn't the last fight but Mai will again break windows, can Sayuri return from the hospital in time to protect Mai against Kuze?
I expect Shiori's arc to end in episode 18 (hopefully with Kitagawa playing any non-trivial part there). And then - six more episodes of showdown between Ayu-chan and Nayu-chan.
Yuuichi's line "It was a short relationship we had" to Ayu was one of the highlights of this episode... what a funny line for first-time watchers, yet pointing into the deepest darkness for those who know what's ahead...
Where exactly did Ayu get her new clothes from? She doesn't appear to have the same sizes as Nayuki.
Kanon has been extended to 26 episodes. Looks like they managed to budget so much, they had spare cash to spare for two more episodes. :heh: So there will be 10-11 more episodes after Mai's arc.
Cheers.
Devil Doll
2007-01-05, 22:01
Two more episodes for Kazahana-type stuff? I'd be fine with that.
Anyone else unhappy about Sayuri having lost her 2k2 role of preventing Mai's suicide? Plus she's indebted to Mai because of her story... 2k6 Sayuri appears to be more passive than 2k2 Sayuri, and thus less of a heroine. The Yuuichi & Mai couple scored the points instead, but with Mai's arc being almost over it looks like the next episode will have to provide some big surprises for me.
Given the amount of blood and destruction in that bath, plus Yuuichi having decided to handle the demons issue this night already... can we expect Sayuri to be up and running in no time? Nayuki already handed the catalyst for the Mai arc over to Yuuichi... will Sayuri play any significant role at all in the next episode? And if not, and the demon arc actually ends this very night, then was that all we get to see about Sayuri? Or... if that wasn't the last fight but Mai will again break windows, can Sayuri return from the hospital in time to protect Mai against Kuze?
I expect Shiori's arc to end in episode 18 (hopefully with Kitagawa playing any non-trivial part there). And then - six more episodes of showdown between Ayu-chan and Nayu-chan.
Yuuichi's line "It was a short relationship we had" to Ayu was one of the highlights of this episode... what a funny line for first-time watchers, yet pointing into the deepest darkness for those who know what's ahead...
Where exactly did Ayu get her new clothes from? She doesn't appear to have the same sizes as Nayuki.
It's a bit too premature to pass final judgement on Mai's arc yet. We have not even touched on the finale yet...
There is much more to Mai's story then what we have been shown so far. If your only prior experience of Mai's arc is Toei's Kanon, then I can understand why you think it is ending now.
However, if you have either played the game or read the game transcripts, you should be well aware that we have not entered the final scenes of Mai's arc.
Be patient. Let KyoAni tell the story first before you start comparing it to other adaptations.
Cheers.
Two more episodes for Kazahana-type stuff? I'd be fine with that.
Oh Hell no to Kazahana-type stuff. :heh: I rather they use it to expand more on the Ayu-Nayuki-Yuuichi dynamic.
Narf.
CrowKenobi
2007-01-06, 00:03
Oh Hell no to Kazahana-type stuff. :heh: I rather they use it to expand more on the Ayu-Nayuki-Yuuichi dynamic.
Narf.Seconded!! :D
('cause the better they can flesh out the Ayu-Nayuki-Yuuichi dynamic, the better the drama can be without feeling like anything was rushed.)
:cool:
Ascaloth
2007-01-06, 00:18
Seconded!! :D
('cause the better they can flesh out the Ayu-Nayuki-Yuuichi dynamic, the better the drama can be without feeling like anything was rushed.)
:cool:
Of course, that's hoping they don't go off the other extreme and make the whole thing feel draggy at the end......but since it's KyoAni, that's not likely to happen, is it? :heh:
IRJustman
2007-01-06, 05:25
Two more episodes for Kazahana-type stuff? I'd be fine with that.
Of course, this makes the assumption they'll take those liberties. If they do, I suspect that, like the rest of the series thus far, they'll do it with great flair we've come to practically expect--and thoroughly enjoy.
--Ian.
MakubeX2
2007-01-06, 09:22
The 2 new Ep are most likely summary episodes. Anyone still remember the 13th Ep of AIR ?
The 2 new Ep are most likely summary episodes. Anyone still remember the 13th Ep of AIR ?
We also got a two episode special with Air, so there's always the chance that something like that could happen with Kanon.
Richard 23
2007-01-06, 12:50
There's nothing I hate more than recap episodes. If 26 or 25-6 are recaps I might just have to dish out a 5 or a 3 rating out of pure spite. ;-)
Honestly, although Air 13 was a good recap, it still felt like a wasted episode to me. The saving grace was the 2 episode Air in Summer special. For that I was able to forgive the recap.
I'm glad this didn't turn out like Chobits (for lack of a better example). Weren't there 3 or 4 recap episodes during the 26 episode run? Man, that ticked me off!
relentlessflame
2007-01-06, 13:56
Well, as I mentioned in the other thread, they've been quite explicit so far in announcing and soliciting the show as 24 episodes. All 8 DVDs have already been solicited with episode numbers and all. The firstpress extras are all designed to be complete with 8 discs. If TBS decided to slot two additional weeks in spite of that, then they'll have to do something to fill the time. So, if the last two weeks do turn out to be recap episodes, I wouldn't necessarily blame the producers; they've indicated all along that it was intended for 24 episodes, not 26. We'll see what happens... it could all be a rumour, anyway.
Doesn't the game ends with Ayu waking up alone in the hospital room before Akiko tells Yuichi that a girl just woke up after 7 years in a coma? She heard it on TV. So, stop worrying about Akiko dying guys.
So, maybe it's "Kanon in the Spring" , the epilogue?
At least ep. 14 gives me hope that we may see abit of Ayu's family and more blood in Ayu's arc.
I'm rather harsh on recaps (AIR's did piss me off a bit)... but epilogues I'm quite happy with, be they an episode or just little moments in the last ep's end credits.
(okay, there was that moment in Canvas 2 but only because I didn't feel like those particular dots had been sufficiently connected)
I wasn't terribly fond of parts of the special epilog to TOEI Kanon mostly because it was time set too close to the series end and seemed more of a duct tape band aid over some dangling plot points and trying to make up for the Reader's Digest version series.
With two episodes... hmmm, I'd like a series of "omake" or "in between moments" - comedy oriented that gives you some extra filling to enjoy about the characters.
Looks like I'm really late to join in on this discussion, so, advance apology if it has already been mentioned, but has anybody pointed out all (or near it) the hints and clues that are presented in each of the episodes currently and how they are linked?
For example, in episode 2, where Yuuichi wander around the school being lost, and it gave us many hints of events to come; the thoughts he made "Does someone eat lunch here or something?" Which we later see how that was put to use. Then we have him exiting at the roof top, and the interesting thing here is that when he felt down, in the later events (ep13-14), it show us that this scene is where Yuuichi is gonna get an ass-whooping.
So I'm just wondering if someone has done a list of things, all the small details, to expect from this series, sorta like a walkthru guide for this anime, if there is such a thing. :twitch:
That would be similar to "Trivia" or "Reference Guides" that some fans do for different series (epecially cultural reference guides) ... I've not seen one yet for Kanon.
The problem with Air's recap was it appeared at the end of the series.. which is kind of pointless. It doesn't give you a reason to watch it seeming as though you just finished that series. I enjoyed it to a certain level 'cause it played tracks at different times to the anime - was nice to hear them played differently.
Merridew
2007-01-06, 22:37
I'm not sure if I should be going off on a tangent from the current discussion, but I've had this thing on my mind for quite a while now. I started wondering after Mai actually gave a number for the demons that she is facing (literally and, perhaps, metaphorically?). I have this feeling that the demons represent something, like the hurt that Mai may have felt when her friend left him 7 years ago, and others. So far she's killed two of them, with 3 left. I rewatched episode 13 and think I've got a vague idea on what the two monsters she killed may have been:
1. She doesn't feel lonely any more after Yuuichi has joined her on her nightly demon hunts,
and 2. she comes to the realisation that Yuuichi may have more ties with her than she once thought.
These are just the guesses that I can come up with.
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