Proposed Amendment to Forum Rule 2.3 (re: Asking about releases)

[relentlessflame]

Current Rule (http://forums.animesuki.com/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_rules_2_3):

Do not ask when episodes will be released
You are not permitted to ask when episodes will be released. Shows are released once the fansub group is finished with them. All your whining will do is irritate the group's staff and make them leave the scene. That will mean even slower releases or none at all. Please have some patience.

Proposed Amendment:
Add a clarification that indicates that this rule includes asking whether a group has dropped a project.

Rationale:
I've noticed an increase in this "has this show been dropped?" question on the fansub forums these days for less popular shows, even when the most recent release has been in less than two weeks. It can be accompanied by a sort of "safe harbor" statement like "I'm not asking when it'll be released, just if it's being continued" as if to bypass the wording of the forum rule. It can also be "based on" the weakest of anecdotal evidence, such as a website being temporarily unavailable (or, of course, based on no evidence whatsoever).

To me, this is really just another way of asking the same question as the original rule, and is pretty senseless to ask on these boards (if a project were announced as dropped, I'm sure someone would have already posted it). If it were a project I was working on, the insinuation would be the same or worse as that implied by the initial rule: I'd see it as whining and asking when the next episode will be released. It's actually an even more direct way of questioning the group's "commitment" - it's no longer just "it's taking too long", but now "maybe you're not even working on it at all". Not very helpful...

Besides that, I didn't realize that the dropping of series had become such an epidemic that it's a key cause for concern whenever there's a delay (except for the usual dropping of over-subbed series, but that's not usually the issue here). I also fail to see what the question accomplishes - what are they going to do if it is dropped? (Again, no different than whining about how long a release is taking.) I'd rather see forum posters ask the groups themselves if they need any help -- at least that's a positive, optimistic question that seeks to improve the situation. Plus, it'd save me having to always say "There's no reason to believe it's dropped, just be patient...", etc. And if you're not willing to help improve the situation, what is gained by asking if a series is dropped?

By the logic above, I actually do think the forum rule as written already captures this issue indirectly. However, an addendum would make it even more clear, and prevent the "safe harbor" workaround I mentioned earlier ("I'm not asking when..."). It may be no big deal, but I think it'd be a positive step in bringing people (in a very small way) out of their "where's my food?!" mentality and into the recognition that fansubbing is a team effort ("Hey, do you need any help with that?"). Submitted for your consideration, anyway...

[NoSanninWa]

You speak Truth.

95% of people who ask if a project was dropped, are just trying for a loophole and I usually treat it as such, but it should be made clear in our rules that we're on to that trick.

[FatPianoBoy]

If this is going to be the case, it would be nice if groups would at least let people know when they've dropped a series. Nothing like waiting for something you'll never get.

[relentlessflame]

Nothing like waiting for something you'll never get.Well, not to take this on too much of a tangent, but that's part of my point. Those doing the fansubbing could just as soon say "Nothing like expecting something you don't deserve". It may not be a "nice" answer, but it is the truth -- we have no right to know if or when a fansub will be released, and we're "at the mercy" of those donating their time and doing the work. This is why, as per the original rule, I think it's better to not ask and to, instead, encourage people to offer their help as they're able. If you're not willing to help, then all you can do is wait anyway. That being said, if groups wants to announce that they're dropping a project here on AnimeSuki, that's obviously a nice gesture.

[Supersonic]

If this is going to be the case, it would be nice if groups would at least let people know when they've dropped a series. Nothing like waiting for something you'll never get.

I agree with you, to an extent. I think given a certain period of time, it is no longer rude to ask if a show has been dropped. Rather than outright banning this behavior, I think the best course of action is to limit it to no less than a month after the last release.

[GHDpro]

I agree as well -- with both relentlessflame's opinion and Supersonic's one.

I've always considered the following checklist as basic rules to follow regarding this topic: Absolutely no asking within 3 months of last fansub, period.


Preferably don't ask until 6 months have passed. That's a reasonably "long" time.


First check the fansub groups website to see if news or project pages mention anything like:
"Yeah we know we have fallen behind with series XYZ. We'll get an ep out soon"
If a post like that means they haven't dropped it and you just have to be patient.


Check the forum of a fansub group for similar news. Also check closed threads to see
if someone hasn't already asked before, as in that case staff members might respond like:
"No you #%$#$@#W. We won't drop XYZ until we say so, you #%#@#$@!"


Last, check the topic of the fansub groups IRC channel for any info.
But don't ask on IRC if a series has been dropped! It might be better to ask in a forum.


If fansub groups make statements that indicate they're going to take their sweet time
to fansub a certain series, multiply the waiting times above.
That covers about everything I think :)

Still above rules might be a bit to long to integrate in the rules (if we get a consensus on that).
But we could make a reference, or implement some elements...

[NoSanninWa]

Curiously my timeframe for late fansubs is exactly the same as yours! I wait about 3 months before I start checking group's websites and forums to see if they've said anything. In almost every case someone has already asked the question on their own forum and I'll find an angry response to tell me that they are working on the next episode. (I suspect that the few exceptions are because they deleted the question.)

If 6 months pass, then I consider asking people involved. Though I suspect I can get away with this better than Joe Lurker.

[tritoch]

Or you can threaten them with money :heh:

[Lost]

Threaten? Using money? :uhoh: Well, for me; 6 months seems too long; for currently airing series, I mean. I'd put it at forum/site check @ 3-4 weeks, and then start to ask very very politely @ 2 months; tho usually the check at the end of one month would yield an answer. Ha, I remember contacting one group to enquire about a certain series, and I got a reasonable, kind but firm reply. :heh: Tho I do agree with the point made that we can't expect everything for them. We are the ones being served after all; have to live with that. (Tho I do expect reasonable quality from a release that calls itself a fansub)

[relentlessflame]

Still above rules might be a bit to long to integrate in the rules (if we get a consensus on that).
But we could make a reference, or implement some elements...Well, actually, I think the thing that's most obviously absent from your recommended steps (on purpose, of course) is: "post on AnimeSuki forums to ask if the project is dropped". Your steps involved checking the fansub group's website, checking their forums, and asking them on IRC - which makes a lot of sense (and, frankly, should be pretty obvious...). So, regardless of the amount of time you wait and so on, I think "don't ask here" would still be a pretty sensible rule. But at the same time, it'd be even worse if people start pestering the fansub groups instead, so perhaps the rule should be accompanied by an advice post (featuring something like the guidelines you mentioned, for example).

It's either that and/or we have a heavily-moderated "Officially Dropped Projects" thread (sort of like the "Licensed" thread). I'm not too sure what the implications of that would be, but at least it'd limit the rumour-mongering and provide a central spot people could look to for "official news". The question of course becomes what counts as "official" news, how to avoid getting entangled in political in-fighting, and so on... but it's a thought, anyway. So long as people stop asking within weeks of a recent release (and it's made clear that "I'm not asking when" isn't a workaround for the current rule), that'll at least be an improvement.

[Vexx]

Much more often things are *stalled* rather than dropped because some critical team member vanished (taken by the MiB I suppose) or is distracted by mundane things like Real Life.

I support the idea as well because one can certainly go *check* at the group's website. If the group isn't using the communication channel they're paying for to, well, *COMMUNICATE* ... then they fail in civility.
Certain groups I'm just more likely to catch raws because they're less dependable, so it goes.

[Potatochobit]

in my opinion if it takes 6 months to release one episode of a series that aired a year ago, it should be considered a dropped project. alot of groups disband and no one mentions it. a list or notification in the fansub thread of that series would prevent people from having to wait in anticipation or ask questions. the torrent list should be changed to dropped on www.animesuki.com if a release has not occured in 6 months. remember, a newborn child can learn to talk in 12 months.