Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means? [Archive]

View Full Version : Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

Sonhex

2006-11-20, 14:32

Code Geass presents us with a diverse set of characters with opposing moral standpoints. Lelouch, in his determination to destroy the Empire of Britannia, is willing to use any means necessary at his disposal to do so. On the otherhand Suzaku, Lelouch's polar opposite, believes only by changing the Empire from within can it be cured of its current cruel ways. While the former is presented as morally grey, the latter is presented as whiter than white. However the show leaves us, the audience, to decide on whether the Lelouch's actions are right or wrong.

Consider also the politics of Britannia and its Emperor, who actively encourages inequality and rivalry - even amongst his own children. The Emperor seeks to propel Britannia to even greater heights through military might. How has the politics of Britannia, and those who oppose it, influenced the actions and decisions of the characters?

Thread Guidelines

Since this topic can easily become incindiary, please remember that when discussing opinions you should not attack a person who holds a different opinion to yourself. Discussion is OK, insults are not. Also, remember that a contrary opinion does not mean that the person you are talking with is immoral.

Be polite to your fellow forum members and try and keep the discussion on topic and above all, enjoy the discussion.

White Manju Bun

2006-11-20, 17:18

Clarste

2006-11-20, 17:30

Remember Lelouch's answer to how to stop the fighting. "It's simple. The fighting stops when someone wins." Okay, it should be obvious that this is completely and utterly wrong. This is exactly what Britannia has been doing, and guess what? They're busy fighting terrorists constantly. Conquering is clearly not the solution, and Lelouch's goal seems to be to fight Britannia on their own terms (war) and win, thereby conquering them. Even if he manages to do this, he's no different from them, the cycle continues. The conquered Britannians rebel against Lelouch-land or whatever. The only way his method could really stop the fighting is complete genocide, which I'm sure no one endorses. Even then civil war is still a possibilty.

Suzaku's answer (change from within) would actually work, although it'd be much harder to pull off. Obtain a position of power and gradually grant rights and autonomy (and proper names...) to the already conquered areas. Sure, the grudges will die slowly, but its certainly better than reigniting war in a recently wartorn country. And grudges can die over time in times of prosperity, as history has shown. Prosperity for all may be an impossible goal though.

Edit: Come to think of it, I'm arguing for the ends on Suzaku's behalf. Both Lelouch's ends and means are questionable. Hmm...

cyoti

2006-11-20, 18:01

Not saying Suzaku's method is wrong but its hard for one person to change an entire military state based on the fact that he can make it better. Lelouch is working the angle of better man wins (I think) and wants to dispose of Britannia at all costs. However considering the super power that is Britannia for Lelouch to end Britannia's drive for apparent world conquest and dominance is going to cost lives especially since behind the emperor are the nobility, the military and everyone else who benefits and strives for Britannia and her goal. To destroy Britannia, you probably will have to carry out a purge of those people.

I find Suzuka's way just harder to accomplish then Lelouch way. True, however Suzaku's method will probably be less of a bloodbath.

White Manju Bun

2006-11-20, 19:04

However considering the super power that is Britannia for Lelouch to end Britannia's drive for apparent world conquest and dominance is going to cost lives especially since behind the emperor are the nobility, the military and everyone else who benefits and strives for Britannia and her goal. To destroy Britannia, you probably will have to carry out a purge of those people.

True, however Suzaku's method will probably be less of a bloodbath.

Good point on both parts. Lelouch's way definitely will cause bloodshed but really its not different then what Britannia is doing now the only point being is Britannia is doing it with out any respect to the countries is taking over.

Remember Lelouch's answer to how to stop the fighting. "It's simple. The fighting stops when someone wins." Okay, it should be obvious that this is completely and utterly wrong. This is exactly what Britannia has been doing, and guess what? They're busy fighting terrorists constantly. Conquering is clearly not the solution, and Lelouch's goal seems to be to fight Britannia on their own terms (war) and win, thereby conquering them. Even if he manages to do this, he's no different from them, the cycle continues. The conquered Britannians rebel against Lelouch-land or whatever. The only way his method could really stop the fighting is complete genocide, which I'm sure no one endorses. Even then civil war is still a possibilty.

Well hereby its the main problem with either way you view the morality in this anime. War is hell and even if Lelouch does win, there will always be someone wanting to take him down. Unless he and the members of the rebellion come up with a better government then Britannia. So there's a morality question right there... can Lelouch defeat Britannia and still have a rebellion that wont be attack again by either rebels from Britannia or another country.

I dont know how much they are going to get into how this take-off effected other countries, I know they mentioned the Chinese but I cant think that all countries really like being conquered but since this revolves around Lelouch we might not see that.

lana3007

2006-11-20, 19:19

I think if Lelouch and Suzaku want to change Britannia for real, what will be needed is a combination of their two approaches to doing it. Brute force ala Lelouch will get things moving and get the people to realize that thing need to change, it will start the revolution, but it won't be able to really solve any problems. Any kind of permanent solution will have to be reached from within, via the Suzaku approach. Alone Suzaku wouldn't be able to initiate the change, and Lelouch wouldn't be able to reach any solution the way he is going.

Therefore with the two of them working, although seperately, but toward the same goal, there is a pretty good chance that they will be able to change the system.

Deathkillz

2006-11-20, 19:25

lol i hope this isnt going to turn into the deathnote morality discussion where it just goes around in circles :heh:

oki suzaku's way..."to change from within"...erm i dont think its going to happen :uhoh: theres more chance of him getting killed for mutiny than him changing how britannia is ran...

lulu's way...well imo lulu is fighting on behalf of all the nations that were forcibly taken by britannia...hes fighting fire against fire seen as its the only way...its not like britannia will be persuaded to give back their empire...
yep its going to be a blood bath but nothing else can stop the tyranny of britannia...they are not going to sit down and talk...

and tbh its britannia who started it...why should the other contries listen to them? as i see it violence is the only way out of this...crush britannia!

the other reason for lulu's bid to destroy britannia is for the revenge of his mother and sister...rightly so id say seen as his mother was murdered and sister made disable...it must have hurt him soo much...

kazekiri

2006-11-20, 19:30

Now we dont know all of why Lelouch is going up againist Britannia (I forgot what he's consider...it he a Britannian?Actually, we do know. Just in case you haven't seen episode 2 or weren't listening at the end of 1, he's the Emperor's son. He wants to see Britannia go down because Pyramid Head basically let his mother die and sister be crippled as part of his 'survival of the nastiest' policy. He's not so much pro-Japan as he is anti-anything connected with his father, which probably accounts in part for his ends justify the means outlook.

White Manju Bun

2006-11-20, 20:20

lol i hope this isnt going to turn into the deathnote morality discussion where it just goes around in circles

Amen there.

Actually, we do know. Just in case you haven't seen episode 2 or weren't listening at the end of 1, he's the Emperor's son. He wants to see Britannia go down because Pyramid Head basically let his mother die and sister be crippled as part of his 'survival of the nastiest' policy. He's not so much pro-Japan as he is anti-anything connected with his father, which probably accounts in part for his ends justify the means outlook.

~crawls into corner~ how in the hell did I forget that!!!! Thanks for the reminder. (Baka Manju)

SoldierOfDarkness

2006-11-21, 01:17

Actually, we do know. Just in case you haven't seen episode 2 or weren't listening at the end of 1, he's the Emperor's son. He wants to see Britannia go down because Pyramid Head basically let his mother die and sister be crippled as part of his 'survival of the nastiest' policy. He's not so much pro-Japan as he is anti-anything connected with his father, which probably accounts in part for his ends justify the means outlook.

According to the previous episodes...

Lelouch and his sister are on borrowed time. It's only a matter of time before their discovered and targeted again. Thus, in order to make the world a safe place for him and his sister his objective is to take out Britannia (Since elements of the royal family tried to kill him and his mother).

Though I'm curious as to why the Emperor exiled Lelouch to Japan specifically...but in the end, assuming Lelouch sticks to his guns, he'll end up doing exactly what his father wants to do.

Suzuka on the other hand is interesting but since he is in good relations with the 3rd Imperial princess his goals are not that unattainable. Plus, I take it he's already made an impression on Sir Jeremiah and Villete (They will most definetly not forget that he placed himself in danger to save them). Sometimes action speaks louder than words.

So I would say both are justified in their methods, I would go with Lelouch mainly because I'm sadistic that way, but the way Lelouch is going with this is exactly what the emperor wants him to do. It's literally screaming, "Strike me down and take my place as rightful ruler of the empire" Then again, becoming the 99th emperor would still attain the same thing.

EragonJeriel

2006-11-21, 05:08

Ill have to side with Lelouch on this. I think people have the right to fight against what they believe is wrong especially if a huge foreign government jsut came in and told you all what to believe. Now we dont know all of why Lelouch is going up againist Britannia (I forgot what he's consider...it he a Britannian? I know Suzaku is consider a Honored Britannian but he's also an Eleveth...Sorry not trying to get off track, I just want to make sure Im backing what I say with correct information) We know it involves the death of his mother and Im sure alot about Britannia's gobal dominance. Lelouch's tactic's might be off, dressing up as Zero but he's fighting a power he believe should be taken down.

Not saying Suzaku's method is wrong but its hard for one person to change an entire military state based on the fact that he can make it better. Lelouch is working the angle of better man wins (I think) and wants to dispose of Britannia at all costs. I find Suzuka's way just harder to accomplish then Lelouch way.

So may main state of this thread is I think Lelouch's actions are justified at this point. Since I also dont agree with the Emperor's speech on humans are not equal, I feel that Lulu should fight him with what ever means necessary at the this point.

I hope what I said made sense to everyone and thanks for making this thread :)

Agree with this, suzaku method is not hard , its impossible. He isnt smart, he just has an ability with the Knightmares. Hes more suited to be a follower of someone. Whereas lelouch is smart, could order suzaku to kill himself with geass, which he wont. Obviously other countries are unhappy with Britainnia, if lelouch rebels, other conquered AREAS are sure to support lelouch in defeating Britain. Lelouch fighting with whatever means is of course the right way, hes a very suitable choice to be a king.
If u agree that suzaku method involves less of a bloodbath, lol look what happened at shinjuku. Try rewatching all over again. The fighting stops when someone wins is right, why hasnt it stopped? because britainnia hasnt won over the rebels, understand?
lana3007 is probably right in saying suzaku and lelouch should work tgt, or more effectively,suzaku working FOR lelouch.

Clarste

2006-11-21, 06:47

Agree with this, suzaku method is not hard , its impossible. He isnt smart, he just has an ability with the Knightmares. Hes more suited to be a follower of someone. Whereas lelouch is smart, could order suzaku to kill himself with geass, which he wont. Obviously other countries are unhappy with Britainnia, if lelouch rebels, other conquered AREAS are sure to support lelouch in defeating Britain. Lelouch fighting with whatever means is of course the right way, hes a very suitable choice to be a king.
If u agree that suzaku method involves less of a bloodbath, lol look what happened at shinjuku. Try rewatching all over again. The fighting stops when someone wins is right, why hasnt it stopped? because britainnia hasnt won over the rebels, understand?
lana3007 is probably right in saying suzaku and lelouch should work tgt, or more effectively,suzaku working FOR lelouch.

The question was about morality, not ability. Theoretically, Suzaku could simply convince Lelouch to help him. You can't argue that Suzaku's wrong simply because he's not as smart as Lelouch.

EragonJeriel

2006-11-21, 07:54

The question was about morality, not ability. Theoretically, Suzaku could simply convince Lelouch to help him. You can't argue that Suzaku's wrong simply because he's not as smart as Lelouch.

Yea ur right, my apologies, kinda got off topic. Well as for morality, i believe in Lelouch, maybe a small amount of blood shed to prevent a larger amount... anyone would avoid that if necessary. But sadly theres no other choice unless going with suzaku idea would only end up with more innocent dying, remember how the soldiers killed the 2 grandparents and the baby? when lelouch commanded the rebels, not one of em were defeated , until lancelot came out (imba sh*t). Thus, i believe lelouch way is the right one,of course, suzaku is not wrong, only he chosen the lousier choice. Working together with lelouch can save the country better. That is moral. :)

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-11-21, 08:05

Yea ur right, my apologies, kinda got off topic. Well as for morality, i believe in Lelouch, maybe a small amount of blood shed to prevent a larger amount... anyone would avoid that if necessary. But sadly theres no other choice unless going with suzaku idea would only end up with more innocent dying, remember how the soldiers killed the 2 grandparents and the baby? when lelouch commanded the rebels, not one of em were defeated , until lancelot came out (imba sh*t). Thus, i believe lelouch way is the right one,of course, suzaku is not wrong, only he chosen the lousier choice. Working together with lelouch can save the country better. That is moral. :)

My main issue with your views, is I am not sure Lelouch is actually interested in saving Japan. If given the offer of Japan obtaining independence in exchange for coexistence with Britannia, Suzaku would take the option, but Lelouch almost certainly would reject it.

Lelouch wants Britannia destroyed in order to truely feel safe for his sister. Freeing Japan is not actually on his agenda, even if the Resistance want it to happen.

EragonJeriel

2006-11-21, 08:16

My main issue with your views, is I am not sure Lelouch is actually interested in saving Japan. If given the offer of Japan obtaining independence in exchange for coexistence with Britannia, Suzaku would take the option, but Lelouch almost certainly would reject it.

Lelouch wants Britannia destroyed in order to truely feel safe for his sister. Freeing Japan is not actually on his agenda, even if the Resistance want it to happen.

Ur right, but fortunately (or unfortunately?) in this case, its a unavoidable case because Britainnia would not actually let japan be free. He works with the rebels because their goals are the same basically.( or uses them as a tool) If Britainnia actually wants peace (which i doubt), then of course my views would certainly change. So with an unvoidable bloodbath, its only *fire at will*
But *just IMHO* , if theres peace and nanaly or suzaku, one which he loves and what he considers his only true friend, request (or beg?) him to stop, he may. After all, they are supposed to be dead and then live happily ever after.....OR NOT! Nanali would probaly die soon, like yuzuha in Utawarerumono.... sorry, im just so evil.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-11-21, 08:37

Ur right, but fortunately (or unfortunately?) in this case, its a unavoidable case because Britainnia would not actually let japan be free. He works with the rebels because their goals are the same basically.( or uses them as a tool) If Britainnia actually wants peace (which i doubt), then of course my views would certainly change. So with an unvoidable bloodbath, its only *fire at will*
But *just IMHO* , if theres peace and nanaly or suzaku, one which he loves and what he considers his only true friend, request (or beg?) him to stop, he may. After all, they are supposed to be dead and then live happily ever after.....OR NOT! Nanali would probaly die soon, like yuzuha in Utawarerumono.... sorry, im just so evil.

Let's assume instead of a peaceful treaty, Lelouch and his militia managed to crush all their opposition, kill many leaders and even some of Lelouch's half-siblings, and essentially took over control of the entire former nation of Japan...

Then what?

Obviously, Lelouch would want to go further. He would want his men to go forth across the Atlantic and fight in the American continent, then followed by the ultimate conquest of the British Isles.

But would his soldiers be willing to continue?
After all, they might oppose Britannia, but only for liberty. Once they got liberty, why would they want to keep fighting?

The only way things could work out for Lulu, is if somehow the Emperor visit Japan himself. Otherwise, with the seats of power so far away from Japan, Lelouch's allies simply wouldn't (and couldn't) support him all the way.

EragonJeriel

2006-11-21, 08:44

Yeap, absolutely right, the only way to find out is to keep watching i guess.
But making a guess at the ending, *totally random* lelouch would probably lose... its a whole fking empire after all. Edit: maybe b4 even conquering the british in japan, he woulda get his ass whooped by ZegaPain newly created over in Britainnia. :D

White Manju Bun

2006-11-21, 11:55

Though I'm curious as to why the Emperor exiled Lelouch to Japan specifically...but in the end, assuming Lelouch sticks to his guns, he'll end up doing exactly what his father wants to do.

Did Clovis say that he thought Lelouch was killed during the invasion of Japan? Maybe the emperor was planning on that, which is why he exiled Lelouch to Japan, since he'd more then likely end up as a casuality. Too bad for the emporern it didnt happen.

Obviously, Lelouch would want to go further. He would want his men to go forth across the Atlantic and fight in the American continent, then followed by the ultimate conquest of the British Isles.

But would his soldiers be willing to continue?
After all, they might oppose Britannia, but only for liberty. Once they got liberty, why would they want to keep fighting?

Thats the main problem I see with the rebellion at this point. If it is successful, its got the makings to turn into the next Britannia, which was touched on in the some of the above posts. What is stopping Lelouch from creating another "Britannia" type government, but maybe if he does defeat them, he'll leave it at that and just let the other countries Britannia conquered go back to how they were.

Klashikari

2006-11-21, 12:02

i guess lelouch simply doesn't care about what will happen later.
and he is right for this point : there is no need to think too much about the consequence, while you have a huge task to do first : smashing the iron grasp of the Britannia Empire first.

According lelouch motive, we can say that lelouch just wants to seek and destroy ANY threat towards her sister. the rest, he doesn't give a damn thing.
Lelouch isn't really a conqueror, nor a revolutionnist, but a rogue prince, who seeks only revenge and protects the remains of his life : Nanaly, and his friends.

so, i agree with white manju bun, Lelouch could simply leaves the freed countries as they are.

as for the means and the ends, Suzaku's point of view is idealistic, but rather long and not really guaranteed
if he wants a peaceful change, he would need to change a huge mentality among the britannians (and this WILL be long and hard : the britannians see the elevens not as humans, but just bunch of losers. some would actually still consider them as humans as well, but do you see any agreement to free the area? they simply live on their conquests, nothing else... for now.)
he will have to deal with the purists.
and finally, how are his chance of living to begin with? staying in the very enemy lair for this kind of task is suicide.

neodrag38

2006-11-21, 12:17

I'm gonna have to go with both. Where both paths carry their interesting ramifications. I'm not exactly in the position to care about morality when it comes to Lelouch and Suzaku. Of course Suzaku's way would seem more unique and "nice" than Lelouch basically doing what the Empire proclaims to believe in but I say both are pretty much valid when you don't get hung on morality.

EragonJeriel

2006-11-21, 13:06

Unlike death note, morality here is pretty much a personal opinion, and as to what he will do after that...opinion differs.. all we can do is watch on.
As to why he was exiled to japan... lelouch mom was a japanese commoner right? she looked like a japanese in the painting.. or maybe because the nobles of area 11 are left rather untouched, so he was sent to that erm, ashford estate?

Jewelray

2006-11-21, 13:30

I don't think the show is far enough in to have revealed its views on this, but I'm pretty confident it will and that Lelouch won't be looked upon so favorably.

I like Suzaku's "changing from within" strategy, even though it's pretty near impossible, but I'm a tool like that...

lana3007

2006-11-21, 14:36

I don't think Lelouch is quite as selfish as some of you have said. Clearly his first priority is his sister and creating a place where she and people like her can be happy, but you can't say that it's all he cares about. The whole reason he originally ended up with the Geass power was because he went down to help the terrorists when their truck crushed in the first episode. He was the only one who was willing to do something to help them and he wasn't getting anything in return for it, which says a bit about him. I'd say that he does care about what happens to Japan, although he isn't fighting for exactly the same reasons as the terrorists are: terrorists want Britannia to leave them alone; while Lelouch realizes that this is impossible until Britannia is destroyed.

As for what Lelouch is going to do if/when he wins - it all depends on whether he will get power hungry or not. If he does then he will basically just take over from his father, but I am willing to give him the benefit of being better then that (especially if he has people like Nanali and Suzaku to remind him what his original purpose was).

Klashikari

2006-11-21, 14:40

this is rather unlikely to happen : lelouch was thinking about this for the very beginning, and admit to C.C that he was going to crush the empire, even without Geass.

also, the EP7 is really interesting, since it shows Lelouch's opinion about people, which humanize him a lot. (definitavely NO a stupid avenger stereotype ! ^^ )

Deathkillz

2006-11-21, 15:01

this is rather unlikely to happen : lelouch was thinking about this for the very beginning, and admit to C.C that he was going to crush the empire, even without Geass.

yes he did say that...but with geass he was able to speed up his plan quite a bit :)
lulu is the type of person that can hold a grudge...and rightly so...i dont see any wrong with taking a country back from bandits who stole it in the first place...

the only problem is that i hope he doesnt get too much into his ego...i dont want him to turn out like another light :(

Shiroth

2006-11-21, 15:34

lelouch was thinking about this for the very beginning, and admit to C.C that he was going to crush the empire, even without Geass.
I'm sure it wouldn't be as fun, though it would be interesting to find out what his original plan would have been if the Geass never came into play. Any ideas?

Klashikari

2006-11-21, 15:34

i hope so, but i think he won't, simply that he revealed a lot of his "philosophy" with his confrontation against C.C in EP7 (the speech commenting the weak)

but it's unclear if lelouch is doing this for the sake of everyone, or just save everyone indrecty, since if the weak can't survive, so nanaly won't either.

but it's really interesting that, though he seems cold and indifferent with his pawns, he doesn't only care about nanaly but his friends too.

so, no silly god complex sore loser light alike ! (for the moment ~~)

Shiroth : hummm... possibly some propaganda, and a sort of revolution?
without geass, it is really hard, that's true.
however, Lelouch has a tremendous charisma, and he has tactical requirements to deal with it (just like he did with his first encounter with karen, minus the fact he needed geass to steal viletta knightframe, of course)

Clarste

2006-11-21, 15:47

Okay, assume Lelouch has no ambitions of ruling. He plans on overthrowing Britiannia, returning unconditional autonomy to the nations conquered by Britannia, and then what? He's got a country (Britannia) full of people who hate him for killing their king, and probably tons of their friends and family members in the war. What's he going to do, oppress them? Because you can be sure they'll start plotting they're own terrorism.

It's certainly a better situation than when Britannia was ruling, because Lelouch is such a nice guy and will try to appease them, help them out, etc. But, doesn't this remind you of something? Oh yes, it's exactly the same as if Suzaku succeeds in changing Britannia from within. Except with a World War first. This isn't exactly a good thing.

On the other hand, I can't really see a peaceful way to get King le Britannia out of power, and it's clear that he needs to go before Britannia can change. Assassination's probably your best bet, but I'm sure the miltary and the heirs to the throne would just use that as an excuse to further oppress their conquered subjects. You'd have to assassinate a whole lot of people, and the resulting chaos might be just as bad as a war. On the other hand I could certainly see a miracle happening if Lelouch suddenly reveals himself as a rightful heir and manages to make a good first impression to the world. Or set up Euphemia as queen, although I doubt she'd react well to her older sister (and probably some older half-siblings) getting assassinated.

Klashikari

2006-11-21, 15:55

a vicious circle indeed (this is the flaw of the terror/violence).
now, i think that is where it will be intresting : what about lelouch clearing the path, while suzaku will change the rules and mentalities ?

lelouch would have the power to break the empire, while suzaku and euphemia have the power to change the world, in the aftermath of the fallen empire?
i was always thinking about this : Lelouch and Suzaku have both the same end, but differents means. but what about mixing the means, which would prevent a flaw from each other means?

as for a coup d'état, unfortunately, lelouch Vie Britannia is declared as dead, and the emperor would certainly erase any possibility to reclaim the throne for lelouch.

Deathkillz

2006-11-21, 16:37

meh imo lulu is doing what he is doing mainly for revenge on his mother, his sister and the way he was pushed aside by the king...
he hates loosing (same as light :heh:) so hes trying to get revenge by demolishing britannia...
now that you mentioned it...suzaku and euphemia can be the future king and queen...providing that the kind is dead...i think that the end wont be just the "destroyed britannia" but instead a reformation lead by suzaku and euphemia to pose freedom and new laws...im sure this way everyone would be happy including lulu...personally so far i dont see lulu as wanting to rule anyone...just to get even...

Sonhex

2006-11-21, 16:40

Suzaku and Euphemia certainly appear capable of ruling what is left of Britannia once Lelouch has finished with it, assuming he wipes out all the Emperor's loyalists. Lelouch may even conclude Suzaku is the best way to ensure Nunally gets her peaceful future, because he himself has chosen the path of violence. A path that usually only has one conclusion. Even if Lelouch survives the Rebellion (unlikely), he'll most certainly be exposed as Zero and condemned for Clovis's murder (and possibly others hence). I cannot see Euphemia allowing that to go unpunished.

It will interesting to see how the world reacts to what Lelouch does. The Japanese may consider him a hero for restoring their freedom but the rest of Britannia, some of which may be pro-Empire incidently, may see him as nothing more than an assassin.

EragonJeriel

2006-11-21, 17:11

Heh i basically agree with everyone here... theres not really a right or wrong about this.
*off topic*
i wonder who is smarter, light or lelouch...
Edit: i didnt get the feeling suzaka wanted to rule....

White Manju Bun

2006-11-21, 18:18

Suzaku and Euphemia certainly appear capable of ruling what is left of Britannia once Lelouch has finished with it, assuming he wipes out all the Emperor's loyalists. Lelouch may even conclude Suzaku is the best way to ensure Nunally gets her peaceful future, because he himself has chosen the path of violence. A path that usually only has one conclusion. Even if Lelouch survives the Rebellion (unlikely), he'll most certainly be exposed as Zero and condemned for Clovis's murder (and possibly others hence). I cannot see Euphemia allowing that to go unpunished.

I agree with that. More then likely Lelouch isnt gonn survive if the rebellion does win. Do you think Suzaku would want to rule Britannia (or whatever comes out of the ash) if the rebellion succeeds? He's the one who wants to change it from the inside. Would he take control after Lelouch was done conquering it? I do see that happening tho since every anime needs a sem-happy ending (doesnt it :D )

[DOT].L

2006-11-21, 19:01

While I get Lulu's desire for revenge and train of logic, Suzaku I don't get at all. Is he up for the "peaceful co-existence regardless of ruling class" philosophy, or is he aiming to oust the Britannia regime similar but not identicle to Lulu's ultimate goal? His enlistment in the Britannia military and status as a honourary Britannian suggest the former, but the televised funeral scene at the end of ep 6 implies he does hold at least some hostility towards Britannian rule. The impression I get from these two characters so far is that Lulu is the revolutionist whereas Suzaku is more of a reformer.

cyoti

2006-11-21, 20:46

.L;746538']His enlistment in the Britannia military and status as a honourary Britannian suggest the former, but the televised funeral scene at the end of ep 6 implies he does hold at least some hostility towards Britannian rule.
It might be because of the Emperor's outdated social darwinist views.

SoldierOfDarkness

2006-11-22, 20:13

It might be because of the Emperor's outdated social darwinist views.

What's so outdated about it?

The world has always been a competitive world, survival of the fittest, there's no denying of that. That's why true communiusm will never work.

Suzuka is angry because of the Emperor's methods. Fighting and conquering. He firmly stated that he wants to make a world so that people wouldn't lose their loved ones such as his father and Clovis for Yuffie.

The Emperor literally takes evolution to the extremes but I can see his justification and it's logical. Though at the same time I'm not too fond of it as that could cause alot of civil strife and weaken the empire.

anselfir

2006-11-22, 20:35

Anyways, for these discussions, it is important to realise a few things. First, everything can be described by a series of individual actions: the State, the Nation, the whatever collective or collective interaction are all composed of individual actions, and these collective terms are either used for simplification or generalization, and oftentimes erroneously so. In any case, there is apparently already developed system of "morality for collective entities," but the basis of this is unclear, and cannot ever be justified based on the collective language without also being justified in the individual language. The true nature of action is always in the unit of the individual, and collective morality should also reflect that. Any collective system that contradicts with the individual system, that is, when examined under the language of the individual, there is a different ethical judgment, the individual system will always be superior. (the collective system exhibits deviations, rather than the other way around, since it does not exist in and of itself).

WIth this in mind, it is easy to resolve several paradigms. First, the state. What is the state. It is a series of actions, some coercive. The state does not refer to the people "in" the state, nor does it refer to anything that physically exist. It is merely a phenomenon. To destroy the state, simply stop the people whose actions compose the state from behaving that way. Tehre is no need to give physical form to the state and transfer hatred to it, nor is it accurate to describe people who live in a certain state as a part of that state. The rather fundamental mistakes of terrorism and other collective-hatred can be resolved in this way.

In essence, it is not a "us against them" world, it is a world made up of individuals who act in certain ways. Us and them do not exist.

An interesting word used in this thread, will something "work". What does that mean, why is it relevant. Perhaps you guys should discuss these basic conditions first, no.

usually animes like this will give you some divergent mentalities, each formed with their own confused understanding of things, and then perhaps give some obvious insights without taking the discussion to a relevant level, that is to say, an anarchistic level, tehehe.

cyoti

2006-11-23, 11:32

What's so outdated about it?
The idea of social darwinism whose epitomy can be seen as the various eugenics projects of the 19th and 20th century and the Austrian Corporal himself and his various pet projects.

The world has always been a competitive world, survival of the fittest, there's no denying of that. The natural world perhaps, but once you have a complex society like Britannia or the modern world, the idea of survival of the fittest becomes ludicrious since so much of survival depends on non-inheritable traits and weeding them out becomes difficult to impossible.

In the case of Britannia, the one who becomes the Emperor via the struggles between the various siblings is not automatically going to be the most suited for the governing of a globe-spanning Empire.

That's why true communiusm will never work. The reason communism doesn't work has nothing to do with equality and lack of conflict, which it had in spades both external and internal, but rather too much government control in production and almost every other aspect of life with far too much devotion to ideology and purging of the old order.

Retsoor

2006-11-23, 13:06

Ideal concepts rarely come to fruition in real life. That's when you make allowable adjustments to it, and work with that.

>> since so much of survival depends on non-inheritable traits [...]
>> the one who becomes the Emperor [...]

The Emperor, in his own mind, has already addressed this issue. If your parents are poor, or your unfortune stems from non-genetic traits, overcome it, stay content with your lot in life, or die.

SoldierOfDarkness

2006-11-23, 20:54

The idea of social darwinism whose epitomy can be seen as the various eugenics projects of the 19th and 20th century and the Austrian Corporal himself and his various pet projects.

I think we both reached a misunderstanding here.

The emperor basically strives for a competitive world where if you want to get to the top, you do it with whatever you got. Even if your mental or handicapped you still have the opportunity to fight to the top. In this world we provide everyone with equal opporutunities as best as we can so that everyone has a chance. I think he's just using "evolving" in his own words.

In the case of Britannia, the one who becomes the Emperor via the struggles between the various siblings is not automatically going to be the most suited for the governing of a globe-spanning Empire.

Not really, the one who becomes the emperor through the struggles is most likely the one that is the most cunning, cruelest, and devastating. Basically the strongest.

Apparently the emperor actually provides people equal opporutnities from what I have seen for everyone to fight to the top. He provided Lelouch with shelter and establishes his children as dictators in various areas to see how well they fare.

Though likewise I'm against such an act because of the instability it could cause. The emperor is really taking it to the extremes.

The reason communism doesn't work has nothing to do with equality and lack of conflict, which it had in spades both external and internal, but rather too much government control in production and almost every other aspect of life with far too much devotion to ideology and purging of the old order.

Note I said true communism. No nation has ever reached that point.

White Manju Bun

2006-11-28, 14:43

OK now Im confused!! Up til now I was under the impression that Lelouch just wanted to bring down Britannia but not rule his own country, most of the thread dealt with the impression of him turning it over to Suzaku and Yuffie (if that happens) but now with the end of epi 7 he says "My army, my country" sooooooooooooo Im kinda lost now.

cf18

2006-11-28, 18:08

The world has always been a competitive world, survival of the fittest, there's no denying of that. That's why true communiusm will never work.

And that's also why most monarchs at best reach it's prime in the first few generations and becomes weak afterward, and then cycle to the next peasant leader or invader. The whole nobel and power-inheritance system is to protect the ruling class from competition. It's laughable that the Britannia emperor is the 98th one - it can only happen in fiction.

And about Suzaku - well to his own people he is a collaborator, and he has no idea what he is really trying to do. He sure didn't plan to have a sympathetic princess falling into his arms. ;) What if Cornelia order him to kill some innocent "11"s in another ghetto? Neither Euphemia or his watch can protect him from a Gloucester's lance.

Xellos-_^

2006-11-28, 18:27

And that's also why most monarchs at best reach it's prime in the first few generations and becomes weak afterward, and then cycle to the next peasant leader or invader. The whole nobel and power-inheritance system is to protect the ruling class from competition. It's laughable that the Britannia emperor is the 98th one - it can only happen in fiction.

THe bloodline only becomes weak when there is no threat to it. If every emperor had to fight his/her siblings for the throne then the Emperor is the strongest and bloodline would not become weak. Basically if Yuuie becomes the new empress and abolish the survival of the fittest system, Her bloodline won't last 5 generation.

A perfect example of this in anime would be the The legend of Galactic Heros. The decay of the goldenbum royal family and the high nobles and the raise of the Reinheart and his low level nobles.

Jewelray

2006-11-28, 18:56

Xellos-_^

2006-11-28, 18:59

Well, that is until the problems of royal inbreeding start to surface...

Considering the current emperor had 17+ kids form several different wives. I am pretty sure this would not be a problem.

cf18

2006-11-28, 19:39

THe bloodline only becomes weak when there is no threat to it. If every emperor had to fight his/her siblings for the throne then the Emperor is the strongest and bloodline would not become weak. Basically if Yuuie becomes the new empress and abolish the survival of the fittest system, Her bloodline won't last 5 generation.

But in real life the survival of the fittest system will not last three generations, because the empire itself will be quickly weaken by constant in-fighting or civil war. In Chinese history that kind of in-fighting between prince usually occurs between the second generations, because many of them are generals of rebels leaded by their father. If things don't settle down after the 2nd emperor , that dynasty will not last.

Say what if the Britannia emperor suddenly dies and Schneizel the 2nd Prince claim the throne. Do you expect Cornelia to just bow or lead her loyal knights for some Knightmare vs Knightmare action? Britannia will be torn apart. Well that may be exactly what Lelouch wants.

Xellos-_^

2006-11-28, 19:52

But in real life the survival of the fittest system will not last three generations, because the empire itself will be quickly weaken by constant in-fighting or civil war. In Chinese history that kind of in-fighting between prince usually occurs between the second generations, because many of them are generals of rebels leaded by their father. If things don't settle down after the 2nd emperor , that dynasty will not last.

Say what if the Britannia emperor suddenly dies and Schneizel the 2nd Prince claim the throne. Do you expect Cornelia to just bow or lead her loyal knights for some Knightmare vs Knightmare action? Britannia will be torn apart. Well that may be exactly what Lelouch wants.

If it was a all out civil war then your are right but the kind of fights i am thinking of has more to do with what happen in the Tang Dynast when the Tang prince trap his brother in the gate to the imperial palace and kill them both and later force his father into retirement. There is also the Ching Dynasty where the imperial succession has a large number of causalties but never a open civil war. It was all done in the shadows with poison and a knief in the dark.

As for Scheizel, if somehting like that happen I would expect him to keep news of his father death a secret for long a spossible and int he mean time take out as many of his brother and sister that he feels is a threat ASAP. He would consolidate his power in the palace/capital and military ASAP.

Kai Yukari

2006-11-29, 21:25

Suzaku is an idealist.
Lelouch is a realist.

Lelouch is powered by his revenge. He doesn't want peace, he just wants the destruction of Brittania and to fulfill this purpose he will do anything, even if it's evil.

Suzaku is the epitome of righteousness. He wants peace and he will fulfill this purpose by his principles even if it means he'll have a hard time with it.

Personally, I like Suzaku's ideal (EDIT: not anymore) but it looks like Lelouch's the one who is making more progress. But what kind of end are we taking about here? destruction or peace?

CronuZ

2006-11-29, 21:45

lelouch`s powered by his revenge. he doesn't want peace, he just wants the destructon of brittania. to fulfill this purpose he will do anything, even if it's evil.

I agree Lulu do want revenge on the royal family, but then again I doubt hes gonna destroy Brittania for the sake of his personal grudge. Coz at the same time, He also wanna change the world for his sister so the weak like his sister, can live together as well. And, I can't imagine Lulu killing Euphemia after the end of episode 8. He himself said he is Righteous and Kuro no Kishidan will punish those ppl who killed others, even though they have no weapons.

Looks like his next target probably planning on killing Cornelia :( How on earth Cornelia change so drastically, SHES SOOOOOO MOE WHEN SHE IS YOUNG :twitch:

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-11-29, 21:47

suzaku`s an idealist.
lelouch `s a realist.

lelouch`s powered by his revenge. he doesn't want peace, he just wants the destructon of brittania. to fulfill this purpose he will do anything, even if it's evil.

suzaku is the epitomy of righteousness. he wants peace. he will fulfill this purpose by his principles even if it means he'll have a hard time w/ it.

personally, i like suzaku's ideal but it looks like lelouch's the one who is making more progress.

but what kind of end are we taking about here? destruction or peace?

Exactly. There is a fundamental issue in comparing these two character's actions, because their goals are actually not identical. There is no way Suzaku would be willing to start a war in order to free Japan, because hundreds of thousands will die that way and there even is no guarantee Japan would be free at the end of it.
Suzuka wants peace and harmony, but wishes to follow the law.

On the other hand, Lelouch wants Britannia to crash and burn. The assumption (quite correctly) is that when an empire crashes and burns, there would be millions killed. That's already put in to consideration as far as Lelouch is concerned, and is dismissed as a trivial matter.
Call me cynical, but so far I haven't believed a word Lelouch said as Zero to the cameras. It's all public relations. He wants to defend the weak, but the only weak person he is interested in protecting is his sister. Everyone else is disposable.

As an example, in episode 8...
Lelouch blew up the building at the end for political reasons. He wants the TV audience to believe...

1. The Japanese terrorists are mad and can't be trusted. It was true before, but even more so now.
(People didn't know Zero was the one who blew up the building)

2. The Britannian army is incompetent and can't protect the civilians from harm.
(The TV audience thought the government had botched the rescue operation when the bomb went off.)

3. Only Zero and his Black Knights are your saviours.
(He made the Black Knights the saviours by rescuing the hostages from the bombs his own men planted.)

All in all, he is a smart guy. Winning public opinion is vital in fighting as underdogs, even if you have to lie and cheat to get good press.:heh:

CronuZ

2006-11-29, 22:01

Exactly. There is a fundamental issue in comparing these two character's actions, because their goals are actually not identical. There is no way Suzaku would be willing to start a war in order to free Japan, because hundreds of thousands will die that way and there even is no guarantee Japan would be free at the end of it.
Suzuka wants peace and harmony, but wishes to follow the law.

On the other hand, Lelouch wants Britannia to crash and burn. The assumption (quite correctly) is that when an empire crashes and burns, there would be millions killed. That's already put in to consideration as far as Lelouch is concerned, and is dismissed as a trivial matter.
Call me cynical, but so far I haven't believed a word Lelouch said as Zero to the cameras. It's all public relations. He wants to defend the weak, but the only weak person he is interested in protecting is his sister. Everyone else is disposable.

As an example, in episode 8...
Lelouch blew up the building at the end for political reasons. He wants the TV audience to believe...

1. The Japanese terrorists are mad and can't be trusted. It was true before, but even more so now.
(People didn't know Zero was the one who blew up the building)

2. The Britannian army is incompetent and can't protect the civilians from harm.
(The TV audience thought the government had botched the rescue operation when the bomb went off.)

3. Only Zero and his Black Knights are your saviours.
(He made the Black Knights the saviours by rescuing the hostages from the bombs his own men planted.)

All in all, he is a smart guy. Winning public opinion is vital in fighting as underdogs, even if you have to lie and cheat to get good press.:heh:

Guess ur right about tat, but if he didn't care for frens, he wouldn't say "I know" when Rivalz call him.He is actually anxious to find an excuse, a way to save his frens. I believe although he alwayz like to act cool and shows no interest on others, deep within his a good guy. Thats why Shirley like him in the 1st place.

Missilebuster

2006-11-29, 22:21

morally they should seek the path with the least blood aka suzaku's path, but when it comes to genocide and world domination i think that sometimes you have to be a little violent. They should probably try to work together to come up with a plan. In a normal anime suzaku would be the main character lol, this makes it a whole lot more interesting.
My only problem with lelouch is that he likes blood and violence a little too much, he's killing relatively innocent people (by innocent i mean people that believe in their cause, and truly innocent people like that lady that was falling out of the window that suzaku had to catch) this makes him a little morally questionable (what are his motives anywho!?)

Klashikari

2006-11-30, 01:19

My only problem with lelouch is that he likes blood and violence a little too much, he's killing relatively innocent people (by innocent i mean people that believe in their cause, and truly innocent people like that lady that was falling out of the window that suzaku had to catch) this makes him a little morally questionable (what are his motives anywho!?)

are you really sure with this?
lelouch had already hard time with clovis' death.
in fact, i guess he would kill anyone against him onlyy if needed (judging of his comments in preview of episode 7, in the episode 6).
but it doesn't mean he woud love make a massacre you know...

as a side note : it wasn't lelouch direct fault for the falling woman at the shinjuku guetto incident. this kind of loss is colateral

Deathkillz

2006-11-30, 01:32

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-11-30, 04:08

the main thing that distinguishes lulu from laght is that lulu does not or wish not to kill any innocent people...just the britannia scums that deserve it in his opinion...so basically anyone that works for britannia he has a natural hatred for but he wont go and just kill the innocent even if he wanted publicity...

That's where we disagree.

Lelouh wouldn't kill innocent people for fun (he isn't a sadist), but he would be willing to do anything if the reward is large enough. We are talking about someone who is willing to (threaten) shoot himself in the head in order to get the upper-hand over CC.

I also don't agree with Missilebuster. Lelouch does NOT like blood or violence. He merely doesn't dislike it.
He wouldn't deliberately chose the most violent means to get what he want, but if violence is the most efficient way, that's the way he will take. It's all about efficiency to him; that's why he disagree with Terrorism. Terrorism is all about violence, but it doesn't actually achieve anything useful for anyone.

Klashikari

2006-11-30, 04:59

That's where we disagree.

Lelouh wouldn't kill innocent people for fun (he isn't a sadist), but he would be willing to do anything if the reward is large enough. We are talking about someone who is willing to (threaten) shoot himself in the head in order to get the upper-hand over CC.

I also don't agree with Missilebuster. Lelouch does NOT like blood or violence. He merely doesn't dislike it.
He wouldn't deliberately chose the most violent means to get what he want, but if violence is the most efficient way, that's the way he will take. It's all about efficiency to him; that's why he disagree with Terrorism. Terrorism is all about violence, but it doesn't actually achieve anything useful for anyone.

that's true, but if killing innocent people is a good way to get what he wants (destruction of britannia empire), it would be merely hard for them to be "innocent" in the first place. ( if innocent are standing against his way, it would be hard for them to be "innocent" so...)
what i meant is : involving innocent people with an effective way against the empire is hard to imagine. (except the orange incident which is most likely identical to terrorism, i don't see a lot of possibilities)

like you said, terrorism is a petty way for him. now destroying the empire would most likely involve only the noble household and the army. if innocent are killed, i guess those would be the result of some colateral damage, but absolutely not a priority target for a certain plan. How would he gain some benefit of killing innocent people, except public hatred? (well this is my opinion though)

Clarste

2006-11-30, 05:16

Well, he might frame the Britannian army for the killing of innocent Britannians, simply to get the public on his side, start revolts, whatever. I'm not sure he'd be willing to go that far, but that's an example of how killing innocents might help him. Not saving innocents that he could easily save is a bit more imaginable, which is morally kind of the same thing.

Klashikari

2006-11-30, 05:18

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-11-30, 05:50

this is possible however, it won't really be possible since he really doesn't want tu use terrorism or any britannian in the first place.

however he will probably use the public opinion, that's for sure.

The thing is, Lelouch doesn't actually need to fake civilian brutality on the part of Britannia or the Japanese Terrorists.

That doesn't mean Zero can't amplify said brutality though, (e.g. using bombs in episode 8) or to organise the mass-media to make existing acts of brutality look worse than usual through the sensationalism of reporters.

The most damaging kinds of lies are those that are mixed with the truth. Episode 8 is the first solid evidence that Lelouch is willing to deceive the innocents...

The question is, where does this lead? If you are willing to deceive innocent people for your own ends, how far would you need to go before the needs of the innocents were disregarded all together?

Lelouch made a promise not to tell lies to his sister, but he made it clear then, that anyone else is fair game.

CronuZ

2006-11-30, 06:04

Owaranai Destiny

2006-11-30, 06:47

The thing is, Lelouch doesn't actually need to fake civilian brutality on the part of Britannia or the Japanese Terrorists.

That doesn't mean Zero can't amplify said brutality though, (e.g. using bombs in episode 8) or to organise the mass-media to make existing acts of brutality look worse than usual through the sensationalism of reporters. It's possible to do that, alright. The media is a double-edged sword for Britannia if Lelouch continues to do what he believes is needed.

The question is, where does this lead? If you are willing to deceive innocent people for your own ends, how far would you need to go before the needs of the innocents were disregarded all together?

That would come under the future altogether. We have to take note of his objectives as well, and that is to destroy Britannia as an empire. In this case, one can argue that he's telling 'white lies', things that can destroy Britannia's credibility and perhaps bring out the inner oppressed self to fight back instead of being treated like scum. If his key goal was to destroy the very power that has severely been brutal in their rule of the Japanese/Elevens, it would benefit them to an extent as well.

Lelouch made a promise not to tell lies to his sister, but he made it clear then, that anyone else is fair game. No shit. He's already told a lie regarding C.C, an accomplice in his grand scheme. It might seem small, since Nanaly herself mistook C.C as a *ahem* close companion of Lelouch, but it will be damaging in the long run.

Hes deceiving the public, Yes, but will he risking the lifes of innocent?? I'm not so sure about it. It's a thin and fine line he treads between logic and madness, especially with the tactics he's been using. When push comes to shove, we don't know what will really happen. Remember, his need to turn the odds against him is really important cause he have no weapon watsoever... juz onli his Geass power and his Order of Black Knights.

I believe that will be pertaining more to the episodes where he has yet to establish the Order. With his Geass power, he could only achieve minor victories. The Order is evidence that he has realised mostly that power and support is needed if he was to succeed at all.
Up against a oversized opponent Brittania, u really can't blaming him gettin public recognition since this will really give the Brittanian army alot of media pressure and attention.

As well as a message sent to the people of Area 11 itself. It would be pointless if he just scurry about like a goddamned rat using guerilla warfare and engaging in underground activities. It was probably a message to the oppressed Elevens as well as a possible awakening of the unhappiness with the Britannian rule in them, and as such possibly garner more support. As stated earlier, it can be good for the Elevens as well. Liberation by a mysterious character who has beaten the seemingly impervious Britannia, and a self-proclaimed seeker of justice as well...Who wouldn't want that?

TheFluff

2006-11-30, 10:00

Jewelray

2006-11-30, 10:37

From here, I see two routes:
1. After walking a long and drama-filled road, Suzaku finally reaps the results of his tireless niceness and somehow turns Lelouch into a nice guy. Happy end, optionally with Lelouch dying having realized his mistakes, Darth Vader style (which would kind of make Suzaku the hero and make the ending bittersweet, which would be kind of interesting as well). Standard idealistic, morally and politically correct anime ending, in other words. Nice enough to make you naseous.
2. Despite fighting tirelessly for the length of the series, Suzaku fails. Lelouch, on the other hand, succeeds, thus proving that being a Nice Guy and having Morals and Values isn't enough in the real world. Optionally, Lelouch is forced to kill Suzaku, who won't give up on his principles. Potentially very dark ending, and certainly a lot more interesting than most anime endings are.

I would very much like the see it go down the route of the second possibility.

Or if that is too dark, or not the message the creator was trying to go for, how about Lelouch pretty much succeeding in his world-take over or revenge or whatever he is trying to do, remains the nutcase that he already is but worse, and then Suzaku is forced to kill him/ take him down (Lelouch is too stubborn and crazy to say, 'well I guess I was wrong' so he remains the bad guy.) We now get: hypocrisy is wrong and the ends don't justify the means. It's not as pessimistic but it's a better overall message than "fighting is bad and friendship is good, let's all go pick flowers and bake cookies together yay"

felix

2006-11-30, 11:24

Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

Nop.. the ends always have to justafy the means, and they never do..

Leluche only follows the path of revenge so it's out of the question for his ambitions would motivate his actions.. you know what they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree..

On another note, are Suzaku's means justafiable by the end.. if he ever achieve anything..

Well we'll eventually find out if the end in Code Geas justifys the means.. :D

Majek

2006-11-30, 12:46

Who cares about morals? For me, what makes Geass interesting at all is Lelouch's refreshing lack of inhibitions. I've seen enough of idealistic protagonists over the years. I knew I was going to like this show back in ep 2 or so where Suzaku turned back to save a civilian and Lelouch went something like "Well, if he wants moral victories, he can have them."

Up until now, the story sure hasn't been kind to Suzaku's way either. Just look at what happened after he stopped the fight between the terrorists and the Britannian soldiers.
Lelouch, on the other hand, has had huge successes with his opposite way.

From here, I see two routes:
1. After walking a long and drama-filled road, Suzaku finally reaps the results of his tireless niceness and somehow turns Lelouch into a nice guy. Happy end, optionally with Lelouch dying having realized his mistakes, Darth Vader style (which would kind of make Suzaku the hero and make the ending bittersweet, which would be kind of interesting as well). Standard idealistic, morally and politically correct anime ending, in other words. Nice enough to make you naseous.
2. Despite fighting tirelessly for the length of the series, Suzaku fails. Lelouch, on the other hand, succeeds, thus proving that being a Nice Guy and having Morals and Values isn't enough in the real world. Optionally, Lelouch is forced to kill Suzaku, who won't give up on his principles. Potentially very dark ending, and certainly a lot more interesting than most anime endings are.

I don't think I need to say I hope for the second but expect the first. :/
There have been plenty of amoral portagonists over the years as well. Too many. Besides the real world has enough of them why should there be more in ficiotn as well.

So hope for something better is nausesous? No wonder the real world is such a bad place to live in.

The seconds ending wouldn't acomplish anything other that appease the people who just want a dark ending. Why should it be proved that revenge is the right thing? It's only brings more pain and suffering. No end justifies the means because you always lose everything ion the process. In the end you can only ponder if this was really worth it all.
If it comes to Lelouch killing Suzaku that can only mean he already lost everything ( Nanaly and all the other girls ) and he knows no other way than death a misery. In that ending CC would probalby give him a mery killing because he can't remain sane if he follows the path he's taking now till the very end.

Really a way to insure more suicides among fans and death threats and to not teach any lesson at all.

Eitherway boht of you ending ideas are bad.

The best edning would have to involve evolved views from both Lulu and Suzaku preferably not on deathbed. It sucks when on has to die that the other learns something. A good storyteller can evolve charaters without that and can make a happy ending more satisfing and realistic at once that some one way good triumps over evil or the end justifies the means aka evil over good.

Xellos-_^

2006-11-30, 12:52

Lulu reminds quite a bit of Reinheart Von Lomegrahm form Legend of Galactic Heros.

- Both are sis-con
- trying to make a safe world for thier sister
- a good friend that can act as thier conscience + loads of yaoi vibes for the fangirls
- extremely intelligent, althought lulu hasn't shown that much ability yet.
- both sees people as nothing more then a chess piece.

I see lulu if continue down this path turning more and more like Light. He won't intentionally hurt people but he will get to the point where he will used them up without a 2nd thought and anyone getting his way be kill. But since this is Sunrise, we will never see lulu go this route, he realize his mistake in the last ep and turn everything over to lacus and go back to being good old lulu.

Jewelray

2006-11-30, 14:09

The seconds ending wouldn't acomplish anything other that appease the people who just want a dark ending. Why should it be proved that revenge is the right thing? It's only brings more pain and suffering. No end justifies the means because you always lose everything ion the process. In the end you can only ponder if this was really worth it all.
If it comes to Lelouch killing Suzaku that can only mean he already lost everything ( Nanaly and all the other girls ) and he knows no other way than death a misery. In that ending CC would probalby give him a mery killing because he can't remain sane if he follows the path he's taking now till the very end.

Good thing episode 8 made it pretty clear it won't turn out like that. I thought the whole "protecting the weak" thing was just what he was using to justify his revenge, but he might actually believe it. Which means he won't get too nuts and kill his friends or become a real villain later on.

I don't think there are too many shows that have messages that are actually all that morbid or cynical. Especially because people have been making gundam connections since the beginning with Code Geass, it would be nice to see it break out of the plot that would be the most predictable. Having Lelouch go completely nuts, become a villain, and then have him succeed in the end wouldn't necessarily mean that the show is saying revenge is a good thing. There are other ways to get across 'the ends don't justify the means' without spoon feeding it to the audience. Lelouch creating a new world based one his 'moral ideals' through his current methods, and then having that world be just as bad if not worse than Britania, is another way to get across a similar message.

But I know that isn't going to happen. There is most likely going to be a happy ending with an uplifting message, told in the usual way, because no one has the balls to do otherwise.

Xellos-_^

2006-11-30, 14:13

Good thing episode 8 made it pretty clear it won't turn out like that. I thought the whole "protecting the weak" thing was just what he was using to justify his revenge, but he might actually believe it. Which means he won't get too nuts and kill his friends or become a real villain later on.

I don't think there are too many shows that have messages that are actually all that morbid or cynical. Especially because people have been making gundam connections since the beginning with Code Geass, it would be nice to see it break out of the plot that would be the most predictable. Having Lelouch go completely nuts, become a villain, and then have him succeed in the end wouldn't necessarily mean that the show is saying revenge is a good thing. There are other ways to get across 'the ends don't justify the means' without spoon feeding it to the audience. Lelouch creating a new world based one his 'moral ideals' through his current methods, and then having that world be just as bad if not worse than Britania, is another way to get across a similar message.

But I know that isn't going to happen. There is most likely going to be a happy ending with an uplifting message, told in the usual way, because no one has the balls to do otherwise.

Try Legend of Galactic Heros.

TheFluff

2006-11-30, 14:43

@Majek: What? This is a work of fiction, not a moral code that tells you how you should live.
The point was that the nice, morally "right" endings have been done halfway to the Andromeda galaxy by now, and with a show like Code Geass, it's BOUND to end up as mile-long-moral-pointer kind of ending, like a fable by Aesop. While parents with kids gradeschool age might appreciate that, it makes for a rather boring and predictable story.

My "predictions" of the ending had very little to do with details, it was more an attempt to clarify my thoughts on which moral way the ending might take. There might be a "third way" where noone succeds and we're left to decide for ourselves whom was right, but I find that kind of unlikely.

Jewelray

2006-11-30, 14:49

Try Legend of Galactic Heros.

I wasn't saying it's never been done before, just that it's not the norm. But I will try to watch Legend of Galactic Heros.

Majek

2006-11-30, 16:41

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-11-30, 16:51

Deathkillz

2006-11-30, 17:14

Well, I think the "protecting the weak" thing was just a propaganda myself, which means he never once believed it.:p

As I sad before, the fact that he used the bombs to improve public relations means rescuing of hostages isn't what it was all about.
no actually i strongly believe that he does intend to protect the weak but a means of destroying the biggest threat to them...his father the king...
he has already tasted the bitterness of how someone strong can pick on the weak so i believe that he wont do the same...

and the bomb bit...sure it was to gain points with the other side but he did it without hurting anyone...a crime? not that i can think of...just a pile of rubble at the end no dead corpse...and since while hes there why not kill 2 birds with one stone? :3
i mean the act of going into the building in the first place to rescue the people was already an act to gain points already so he might as well have multiplied the effect of it with the bomb...

Matrim

2006-11-30, 19:43

There have been plenty of amoral portagonists over the years as well. Too many. Besides the real world has enough of them why should there be more in ficiotn as well.

Exactly because there are many of them in the world - I for one like some degree of realism in the things I watch and "gray" antiheroes (or at least heroes with more flexible morality) are a lot more realistic than someone who would not do "a wrong thing" even if this endangers not only his life but the lives of all people around the world. But screw realism - it's also a lot more interesting to watch. In anime, idealistic do-gooders are everywhere, I am just tired of this archetype, I want to see something different. I am not fan of Lelouche by any means, he is unbearably arrogant, IMHO, but at least, unlike Suzaku, he is not totally predictable and boring.

The seconds ending wouldn't acomplish anything other that appease the people who just want a dark ending.

So? Using the same logic we can say that a happy ending won't achieve anything but satisfy the people who want a happy ending. The only difference is that fans of happy endings happen to be a majority.

I don't think I need to say I hope for the second but expect the first. :/

Yes, same here. I just hope the ending won't be as unbearably cheesy and happy and things won't go entirely in the way of the protagonists as in some other recent SUNRISE series.

antheonoileo

2006-12-02, 01:51

Morality ? I dun really think people can justify others using their own morality.

1. Given Lulu's position, who is good enough to be able to say he is wrong ? His experience & grudge, his cared people, and his ability particularly the new power all lead to his actions. In my point, it's human nature, different from the godlike kind Suzaku who I cannot understand (I mean, his father's death, his invaded country, his ill-treated fellows and he can still serve in the empire's army and point his guns toward his compatriots - even that they are considered terrorists but what they fight for is their own country's independence. I dun say they are right but he can kill them easily when still believes that he is totally right and innocent ? Besides, I dun really think that all of them are terrorists in its exact meaning. The ones in ep 8, right, but some others may be called guerilla given they have support from all the people in the area. I believe that the real terrorists in ep 1 & 7 are the Britanian)

So, personally, it hard to say who is right or wrong (though I dun understand Suzaku, I cannot say he is wrong either). But who cares ? Lulu is an interesting characters without whom the series will become trash while without the boring Suzaku, it is still ok. Come to think of it, without Suzaku's appearance, Lulu still can make some changes if not innovation, but without Lulu's actions, using only his Lancelot and relationship with the princess (who - if as idiot as directly support his ideal - will be eliminated by her father the way little-Lulu was) can create nothing.

2. Morality in larger view: in history, though some nation can gain independence and human right for their race quite peacefully (not really without blood though), this always required pre-condition: the empire 's weakening or even collapes or a big change in international context like after the WW2. Provided the background in the anime, I doubt that Japanese, or 11, can gain anything without violence then. So, they have 2.5 options: fight for their independent or peacefully live like good creatures and/or try to be an honored Britanian like somebody :D Remember that with this extreme case, they are very ill-treated and their lives have no value - they can be killed without mercy as if they are some kind of animals (see ep 1, 7) and the discrimination here is no less than apartheid (without any international intervention/help). If you were an 11, which option would you choose ? :p

Besides, I dunno why but the anime - purposely or not - gives me the feeling that 11s lives have much less value than Britanian - not in the Britanian's mind but also in the producers' :D (maybe it is just some kind of effect). But it is true in reality: an US person's life is more valued than 10 Irags (I dun say US is Britanian though) as inequality is still exist everywhere. We usually require the "terrorist" 11s not to kill Britanian but only few dare and are able to require the Britanian army not to kill 11s. Do you know what "peace" here means?

If means THE PEACE BETWEEN THE CATTLE AND COWBOYS

My ideal is not considering so much on blood or peace (of course peace is preferable), but the equal human right. So if peaceful methods can bring out that, it is the ideal one - which means if, by miracle (and without Lulu's moves), Suzaku succeeds, then he is right. If not, then Lulu is correct (though it maybe his act ^_^) that "Only those who prepare to be killed, can kill"

evil|plushie

2006-12-02, 04:45

Clarste

2006-12-02, 08:17

Suzaku doesn't dislike Japan, he just sees no point in valuing a "nation" over its people. Igniting another war could hardly be considered good for the Japanese people. Pragmatism over pride. Honestly, from his point of view, fighting a one-man war against Britannia is even more impractical than changing it from within as an officer.

About the ending thing, I can see a pseudo-happy ending where Lelouch tricks Suzaku into "defeating" Zero after Lelouch has already crushed Britannia, showing both that Lelouch is successful and that idealists are needed to escape the cycle of violence. Well, I guess that'd just be Lelouch winning.

antheonoileo

2006-12-02, 08:33

Technically, Suzaku and Lelouch are both the same, traitors to their country who wish to see the original state of their country destroyed. Lelouch wants to destroy Britiannia and the royals, Suzaku wants to destroy all trace of Japan by helping the british and then reforming them from within.

Thinking more about it, both of them choose the bloody way. Lulu will kill those preventing him from destroying the empire while Suzaku will kill those he is ordered to. The only thing that make Lulu a so-called devil and Suzaku a so-called god (I really hate the concept of devil and god >*<) is that Lulu may kill some innocent people in the future if he thinks it is needed while Suzaku won't even if it against the orders, of course except those indirectly and unintensionally killed by him (he won't know about the "indirectly" but he will cry a lot for the "unintensionally killed" - if there are -and that will waste me 2->30 minutes of watching him being sad and recovered blah blah)

I think Suzaku is really a weird case as he is built as an action hero, who is believed to fight against the evil, but in fact he chooses to fight - repeat - fight for the evil, expecting that the evil will become the good one ??????? How to say about it ? Maybe the thought justify the means ?

Edit: like i said in the previous post. Though "people" is ussually more important than "nation", but the real question here is not whether to chose "people" or "nation" but "human" or "cattle" ^_^ And even if a one-man war is impossible for Suzaku, he knows that he can side with many allies if he chooses to fight against the empire. Yes, he may still find some allies in the government now who know ^_^

evil|plushie

2006-12-02, 09:04

Technically, Suzaku will kill the innocent, provided he doesn't know they're innocent. Just like the shinjuku incident, it's shown that he will gladly kick the ass of anyone he thinks is on the wrong side.

Cloudy

2006-12-02, 09:35

If it was a all out civil war then your are right but the kind of fights i am thinking of has more to do with what happen in the Tang Dynast when the Tang prince trap his brother in the gate to the imperial palace and kill them both and later force his father into retirement. There is also the Ching Dynasty where the imperial succession has a large number of causalties but never a open civil war. It was all done in the shadows with poison and a knief in the dark.

There is a same case during the Qing dynatsy,when the emperor Yong Zheng was a prince he asked his men to correct the letter stating that his brother was chosen by the emperor Kang Xi to become the successor of him before Kang Xi is dead.In doing so,he became the emperor and banished or killed his brother.

Clarste

2006-12-02, 10:04

evil|plushie

2006-12-02, 10:43

Suzaku is Kira Mk2. Let's see, part of an outcast species (the japanese) working for the other side *the naturals/britiannia* with a supermech *lancelot*. Helloooo Kira. As for his ideals, they may be fine and morally upright. Let's see, he wants to make Britiannia a better and more peaceful empire and he does this by JOINING the army? Wow, sure, the armys really known for spreading peace and love around.

Sure, he wanted to change the system from within, but I seriously question the wisdom of joining the frigging army/system that's being used to oppress the people in the first place. If you ask me, Suzaku is in far more danger of losing his ideals or going down a dangerous slippery slope than Lelouch. Lelouch at least knows what he wants and how to go about it. Suzaku really just has some preconceived notion and a rough general idea.

But I digress, the episodes have not been kind to Suzaku. He's not figured prominently and when he does, nothing really special is shown about him. Hence, people think he's Kira simply because he's that boring.

As for Lelouch. Yes, he's going down a dangerous path but on some level, he knows that and he is willing to lose his life for that. Is he uncompromising? Maybe, maybe not. If he really was, he'd have shot Euphemia in the hotel since she was one of the Emperors own. If he was, he'd have allied with the JLF and forsaken his friends.

Is he a fanatic? It really depends on what you mean. Does he want to destroy the empire? Yes. Does he want to protect his sister? Yes. But so do the rest of the Japanese rebels, are they fanatics too?

He's not a realist? I think he has a far more realistic view of the situation than Suzaku. You might call it a far more cynical or pessimistic view. He knows Britiannia is stagnating from within, it's corrupt and brutal. So how do you change a system like that? By fighting it from within or fighting it from without? In reality, which option has been used the most? The peaceful 'lets all get along' or the 'lets just beat the crap out of each other' solution?

In summary, I prefer someone who knows what they're doing over someone who doesn't.

SoldierOfDarkness

2006-12-02, 13:44

Sure, he wanted to change the system from within, but I seriously question the wisdom of joining the frigging army/system that's being used to oppress the people in the first place. If you ask me, Suzaku is in far more danger of losing his ideals or going down a dangerous slippery slope than Lelouch. Lelouch at least knows what he wants and how to go about it. Suzaku really just has some preconceived notion and a rough general idea.

He joined because he wants to set an example and he's already doing it. This was explained in episode 4 where he was about to be executed. If he had joined Lelouch, the other elevens and honorary britiannians would be persecuted.

Suzuka's already made an impression on the purists faction when he saved Jeremiah. They maybe purists but we've seen them suprised and shocked by his loyalty and perservance to defend them. Next time I doubt Jeremiah or Villete would hesistate to assist him.

Then we have Yuffie, so Suzuka now has a royal family member that shares his views and we know that she isn't too fond with Britannia's ways (reinforced when she notes about how she feels about Cornelia's beliefs).

And now Cornelia, she actually goes forth and promotes an eleven. She gives him a suicide mission which Suzkua takes without questioning and even succeeds where her men failed so that's already an impression made there when she was surprised.

As Suzuka said, "it's still not enough for them to accept us?" If he keeps this up, they will.

IMO, I would go this far to say that Suzuka and Lelouch are working together to bring change to the world. Lelouch knows how to use the media, hence the civilians, britannians specifically. Suzkua himself is an irregular soldier who continues to do the impossible without questioning so he's making an impression on the military, plus he has yuffie on his side.

evil|plushie

2006-12-02, 14:48

I dont know, but there must have been some other avenues of choice to take other than just choosing the army. I mean, what about becoming a politician, an influential talk show host, a famous scientist? All these occupations carry some weight, so it's ridiculous to think that a person would try and carry out 'peaceful' change by joining the army. Especially when you know that the army has been used to kill civilians and enemy countries. Of course, it's even worse when if you think about it enough, you'll end up realising that to get anywhere in the army, you'll have to actually condone the current actions of the army and perhaps even perform some of those said actions. So in reality, not only would one be selling away their moralistic principles in doing so, but also end up becoming one of those they hated.

But then again, I forget that this is an anime and that Suzaku is a Kira so it'll probably work out (miraculously) for him in the end through the power of lancelots plot-twisting mechanism.

antheonoileo

2006-12-02, 23:01

He joined because he wants to set an example and he's already doing it. This was explained in episode 4 where he was about to be executed. If he had joined Lelouch, the other elevens and honorary britiannians would be persecuted.

Set an example for what ? For the fact that an 11 can serve well for the empire army even if it means pointing the gun to his people ? Or that they can live together peacefully like the cowboys and their cattle, where the cattle are still loyalty even he is about to be executed (and seeing many of his fellows - innocent or not - executed) ? I dunno that he went back is really right or wrong decision, but I do agree with that choice, which doesn't mean that I agree with his whole "choice"

Yes, the only reason that makes him join the army is because we need an action hero here. Technically speaking (borrowing from the one in previous posts ^_^), it is like impossible for a solder not to make any calsualty, especially fighting in a city then those may include both enemy and innocents. (@ Bahamut89: Besides, according to your post then the "enemy" is the enemy of Britanian -> his enemy is the enemy of the Britanian empire ?)

And it seems I need to repeat that the reason why he only killed a few "enemy" people is just because of the producer's will. It's micracle (=producer's will) that he can keep this till the end. I think he is even more "godlike" than Kira as even the type of "defending" Kira still has to kill a lot, while this "attacking" Suzaku doesn't ^_^

Lulu may did some "miraculous" things but we can understand because he is so smart, has plan already, knowing how to get support, and has Geass power. And besides, he still loses sometimes. But for Suzaku ? That he doesn't have to turn to a "bloody solder" in such a battlefield-city is miracle already. And what he can achieve so far ? He make some certain powerful people think that, even he, a 11, can work well for the sake of the empire army ^_^ With this good pace, we only have to wait about 100 years for the change of Britanian's perspective. Well done

Edit: besides, Yuffie cannot really do something, at least right now if she doesn't want to be eliminated right away. The only circumstance that she can show off is after Lulu has made the party available for her.

Edit2: I see some of you believe that the people who support the "terriorists" should be killed like enemy. How sad. They are living in their country, supporting their own solders (or terriorists in the view of the strong one) for the independence and human right of themselves, and yet deserve to be killed by those who invaded and kill their fellows without mercy and sometimes just for fun ? I dun like terriorists (such as in ep 8), but I dislike that we use the word "terriorists" too easily either. If all of them are "terriorists" then if our cities were invaded by such cruel empire, we could only be cattle ? Or serving their army like somebody ? Or peacefully demonstrate and get killed ? :D

demonik

2006-12-03, 06:02

Well, i'm not exactly good with long posts...so to summarize in 1 sentence.

Isn't Lelouch playing into the Emperor(his father's) hand? He is competing against the emperor's ideal empire with his, the better man wins and evolution conquers.
-For Suzaku, i would like to see more of him in action before i comment. I'd agree that he's become 'kira' like in a sense, which somewhat ruins the depth of his character. Need more emoness from him

evil|plushie

2006-12-03, 07:26

No emoness. ;p. But suzaku needs serious char. development. We all know why Lelouch feels the way he does and does things the way he does but why does Suzaku feel the way he does? It's a mystery.

Skyfall

2006-12-03, 07:46

Well, i'm not exactly good with long posts...so to summarize in 1 sentence.

Isn't Lelouch playing into the Emperor(his father's) hand? He is competing against the emperor's ideal empire with his, the better man wins and evolution conquers.

And he should care because ? :heh: He want's his father(along with the rest(most) of family) 6ft under. Partly to avenge his mother, partly to ensure safety for his siter. He could care less wether his father dies with smile on his lips or cursing him in a bloody rage - as long as he is gone Lulu has achieved his goal.

Owaranai Destiny

2006-12-03, 08:42

For Suzaku, the best thing for him to do would be to gain power. So far, I think it's painfully apparent that there isn't much progress, save for his recent exploits with the terrorists, so we can't really say too much about him being a complete idealist. It's too early, and there's too little development on his part, be it part of character development or the plot itself.

Matrim

2006-12-03, 12:56

Set an example for what ? For the fact that an 11 can serve well for the empire army even if it means pointing the gun to his people ? Or that they can live together peacefully like the cowboys and their cattle, where the cattle are still loyalty even he is about to be executed (and seeing many of his fellows - innocent or not - executed) ? I dunno that he went back is really right or wrong decision, but I do agree with that choice, which doesn't mean that I agree with his whole "choice"

Yes, the only reason that makes him join the army is because we need an action hero here. Technically speaking (borrowing from the one in previous posts ^_^), it is like impossible for a solder not to make any calsualty, especially fighting in a city then those may include both enemy and innocents. (@ Bahamut89: Besides, according to your post then the "enemy" is the enemy of Britanian -> his enemy is the enemy of the Britanian empire ?)

And it seems I need to repeat that the reason why he only killed a few "enemy" people is just because of the producer's will. It's micracle (=producer's will) that he can keep this till the end. I think he is even more "godlike" than Kira as even the type of "defending" Kira still has to kill a lot, while this "attacking" Suzaku doesn't ^_^
Well said. Possibly the most common excuse for people serving totalitarian regimes who are in somewhat important positions is "I am trying to change things from within the system" which in 99% of the cases means "I want to live a comfortable life and the ends justify the means, so I am happy to serve this tyrant". Suzaku's strategy would never work in the real world, he would end up hated by both sides and faced with impossible choices every other day. Whatever he does, only a miracle (in other words a badly written script) would make his "example" meaningful for anyone other than himself.

I dont know, but there must have been some other avenues of choice to take other than just choosing the army. I mean, what about becoming a politician, an influential talk show host, a famous scientist? All these occupations carry some weight, so it's ridiculous to think that a person would try and carry out 'peaceful' change by joining the army. Especially when you know that the army has been used to kill civilians and enemy countries. Of course, it's even worse when if you think about it enough, you'll end up realising that to get anywhere in the army, you'll have to actually condone the current actions of the army and perhaps even perform some of those said actions. So in reality, not only would one be selling away their moralistic principles in doing so, but also end up becoming one of those they hated.

But then again, I forget that this is an anime and that Suzaku is a Kira so it'll probably work out (miraculously) for him in the end through the power of lancelots plot-twisting mechanism.

Exactly. Things almost always work out in the end for characters like Suzaku, never mind the number of mistakes they make or the fact that they are usually completely out of touch with reality.

Darkeyesrina

2006-12-03, 16:30

First post I made hear, eventhough I have been reading all the threads and posts (blame it to my 11 hour work schedule in front of a PC) ever since episode 2.

Personally I think both Suzaku and Lelouch are obtaining both of their goals on their own ways.

Suzaku got ascended to Lieutenant (which is maybe the first 11 to get ascended to an officer position in the Brittanian Army), has the complete support (and maybe heart) of Vice-Governor/Princess Euphemia, and possiblely got the respect of Governor/Princess Cornelia after what he did on episode 8. So you could say that his moral principles are actually working for him with a great deal of good luck.

Meanwhile, after watching episode 8.5 and the preview summaries from episode 9/10, we can also say that Lelouch has obtained his first goal. Now he has the support of the Eleven population and a few nobles (and most likely the ability to blackmail them too). It may still not be enough to bring the entire royal family to Japan but I think he will get there. So Lelouch moral principle's are also working thanks to his hard work and intelligence.

I think we will all love to see the first confrontation between Lelouch and Suzaku in equal standings (Lelouch's planning & Karen's Red Lotus VS Cornelia's planning & Suzaku's Lancelot) in episode 10 which will be a nice confrontation of principles/power.

Finally I just have a question about the Emperor's plan. Most people says that Lelouch is following his father's plan for succession/evolution. But personally I think the Emperor might think of Lelouch as a leap/jump in his evolution plan since instead of using his daddy's army and money/resources, Lelouch is actually building his army and power by himself. Don't you think at one point the Emperor might try to help Lelouch (even return him his prince status) or even limit his other sons/daughters to make the "evolution" work faster and more efficiently?

Skyfall

2006-12-03, 16:42

Suzaku got ascended to Lieutenant (which is maybe the first 11 to get ascended to an officer position in the Brittanian Army), has the complete support (and maybe heart) of Vice-Governor/Princess Euphemia, and possiblely got the respect of Governor/Princess Cornelia after what he did on episode 8. So you could say that his moral principles are actually working for him with a great deal of good luck.

Which is all worth nothing. He is now LT? What of it? Cornelia knows that she can depend on him during missions? What of it? His goal is to change how the system works from the inside => changing the views of the ruling family, where no one gives a rats arse about any one, let alone some puny Lt 11 who has proven he can be usefull in missions.

As far as we know only Euphemia support/shares his beliefs to some extent, which in current situation is also probably worth next to nothing. Suzaku's approach to the situation is unreasonable and unrealistic given the current situation in the ruling family. We saw the emperor - you really think he cares about some trash LT, or even about his own daughter(Euphemia)?

Xellos-_^

2006-12-03, 16:45

caixiaoshan

2006-12-07, 12:10

what Lelouch believes and what the Britannia Emperor believes can co-exist to a certain extend.

in fact, looking directly into Britannia Emperor's point of view, there is nothing wrong with it, except that it is opposite to popular believes. but isn't it true that for humans, their goal of life is to be better than others? even those trying to achieve equality, are trying to control the world, thus trying to be superior to the world in some way. even when people argue about something, they are trying to be better, to take control...humans are born to compete, to achieve inequality in some form, that is the truth...forget all those common sense...they by themselves don't make sense...that's why they have to be common in order to make sense...^O^

what Lelouch is against seems to be whatever the Emperor believes, but step back some, and we might consider him fighting against the limiting of people's opportunity to compete, as he said: the ones that have the right to shoot are the ones who have the preparation to be shot. This statement is basically saying that, if one wants to compete, he must compete with opponents with same opportunities(equipments). it also justifies fighting: if you are prepared to be shot by your opponent, you can shoot him...which then justifies Lelouch's believe that the way to end war can be having someone to win. a fairly good example would be gundam SEED, as always...The ArchAngel Terrorists had stopped many major battles to prevent deaths, while those major battles are the ones that could end the war...so they actually caused more deaths and sufferings in the future...If no one wins, peace would be short, as long as the opposite sides exists.

i think someone on the first page had said that the believe that the way to end fight is to have someone winning is wrong...it might be an unpleasant believe to most people, i do realize that. but is it really wrong? is having someone winning really the bad way to end fight? or maybe we should ask, is there any other way to TRUELY end a fight?

lade

2006-12-08, 05:31

Hi,

I'm new here, but I've been following Code Geass since the first episode and this is my opinion on the matter of morality under discussion.In my opinion Lelouch and suzaku are two extreme ideals which while having their pros, also have cons

Lelouch is right in the fact that if any other outside of britannia including himself are to have any semblance of a chance to prosper or grow, something has to give in britannia, from my opinion like evry other expanding empire it is a parasite on those it subjugates, no truer is this seen but in episode 9 , kallen's mother is the maid , she probably stayed so she could be around kallen, and her eventual turning to drugs to escape her pitiful existence is proof that britannia is or has beome a cancer to them , robbing them of their will to survive.
Lelouch can see this or has already noticed it in his own similarly precarious existence with is sister that is currently under threat as well.Suzaku can afford to be an idealist , he is not in a situation entirely without hope or poverty , those folks are. If we wanted an honest opinion of life for japanese they would be a truer example than suzaku who is lobbying for acceptance but refuses to accept the reality that those in power are amoral, the people of britannia long used to being in power are elitist who see those they conquer as subhuman, thus poor living conditions and ease with purges that soldiers carry out when called when called to do so is proof of this. In this regard I agree with lelouch , the situation is damning and won't change simply by perserverance , britannia will simply find new thresholds to cross in intolerance, fighting at this stage is the only way out but his views and goals have their own extreme flaws, britannia is a world super power, to crush them as is his goal will require a massive world wide counterstrike every non-britannian fighting britannia ,nothing less at this point will do (the world would have to concentrate it's forces to fight them at their current stage ) this should not be too hard, britannia as mentioned above treat those they conquer contemptiously , there is no love lost there, those yet to be conquered are wary of britannia and would most likely join in the rebeliion to prevent being assimilated by them , so finding support beyond those conquered and oppressed won't be much of a problem, if things as of episde 9 keep up but what he is asking for is an armageddon, a fight to the finish , no retreat , no surrender , no compromises is probably what will play out a desperate fight for indepence by the would , survival by britannia.Everyone giving it their all , if this scenario plays out , as is his intention it will be nothing less than apocalypse, because both sides with nothing to lose will go all out with everything they've got, a fact he mentions to himself as his contemplates his new action (OOBK ),

This too can not be an option , it will end with either complete extinction of the human race if things go the way I suggested earlier , a genocidal purge of britannians by vengeful countries they conquered if they lose or otherwise to everyone else if they win. This all or nothing scenario can't be allowed to play out either.

Which makes surprisingly suzaku and euphemia the only hopeful path left to the world, lelouch's path to victory will almost certainly destroy it if, his goals are as set as he planned the minute he began his campaign .

In a family of degenerates(lelouch included), euphemia is the only humane member and she can most likely bring change but the presence of more aggressive simblings limits her chance to be anywhere near effective in her priciples for the future, she is most likely the weakest if not the one ithe most heart.The only path I see to a good ending the entire family EXCEPT her is wiped, that includes leouch , he can be complteley amoral if not amoral 24/7 so I don't see him as being better that cordelia or the rest, leaving the path clear for her ascension to the throne, it wuld also help if lelouch at least cripples their military engine enough for her to get it under control and and like suzaku says change the attitudes and policies of britannia from, within, an econmic power britannia cvan remain but their military has to be crushed or crippled at the very least.

This is my take on the matter.

bond4154

2006-12-21, 05:20

Lelouch's intentions go no further than vengeance. It is not a case about liberating Japan, or making the world a better place without the Empire. The only thing he cares about is revenge. That in itself isn't a bad thing, but I just wanted to bring up that getting even is his only intention.

...Oh, by the way, I'm new here, and this is my first post. Kind greetings and fair tidings to all of you.

I haven't bothered to read what has been posted above, but Lelouch is definitely intelligent. He's an excellent chess player with a good intellect, and cultured in, mind me, treacherous court politics. Here's an Empire is holding territories in at least the Americas, Southeastern Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. There is no real conventional way for them to fight against an Empire with practically no resources. Let's just, however, assume for a moment that they did. Lelouch manages to contact rebellions worldwide and wage a war against the Britannian Empire. Let's even say that they won. What then?

This brings me back to a scene in Jet Li's Hero. Jet Li plays the role of a minor Chinese official during the rise of the Qin Dynasty, when the first Emperor of China first united China and created the first dynasty of China, the Qin Dynasty. The character that he plays, however, seeks vengeance against the Qin Emperor because he was recruited from a kingdom that Qin had conquered, and has allied himself with three famous fugitives with similar sentiments. Nearing the end of the movie, when Jet Li is close to killing the Qin Emperor, however, he remembers that, on the evening before he was to embark on his mission to kill the Emperor, one of the fugitives wrote two words in Chinese: "Tian Xia". It literally means "under the sky", but in this context, it basically means China, or the mortal world. The fugitive was asking Jet's character what would happen if he managed to kill the Qin Emperor.

The same goes for Code Geass. We continue under the assumption that Lelouch manages to succeed. Britannia has fallen, the Emperor is dead. Everyone celebrates for the first few days or so. Then what happens?

Complete chaos. As Lelouch has said before, Britannia commands a third of the world's population, presumably the developed third. Such a power has not yet existed in our world; not the United States, the Chinese, or even the Romans had ever achieved power on the scale that Britannia has succeeded in taking.

What fills the political vacuum when Britannia falls? That's the hard question that will soon be asked. What's going to happen to all the territories that Britannia had once held? Regional skirmishes will begin in the form of territorial feuds, which will ignite into wars. Rebellions, filled with former Britannian die-hard veterans, will be incited. Other nations, seeing the fall of Britannia, will attempt to push for political supremacy. The world will be thrown into complete, utter, political chaos.

Here's the deal: Lelouch probably knows this.

Lelouch is intelligent, and was educated in court politics. A person of his intellect and educational background should know that this will happen. Which really signifies two things. Either Lelouch doesn't give a damn about what happens to the world as long as Britannia falls, or Lelouch is too consumed by hatred and pain to even see that far ahead.

I'm not saying whether or not his morality is right or wrong. It could be both. But it's certainly not going to lead to anything good.

Suzaku, so far, gives the impression of a kid who never grew up correctly. It's actually kind of funny, because Suzaku is attempting to give the exact opposite impression of what the Japanese army did in World War II. Forgive easily, try to change things for the better; Suzaku is attempting to come off as a philanthropist. Still, Suzaku is much too naive, which really does not make me think of Kira when I think of him. True, there's the Coordinator/Eleven and the miss-the-cockpit thing. At the same time, however, Kira's conviction was pretty simple at first: Protect my friends. That is not Suzaku's initial conviction. Suzaku isn't even serious about trying to change the Britannian Empire. He's very passive in his role, and hasn't actually done much except follow the Empire's orders. Exactly how he intends to change the Empire with his current track record puzzles me. I think I can expect a lot more from him, though.

...From a certain perspective, though, Lelouch reminds me of Kira and CC of Ryuk from Death Note. XD

evil|plushie

2006-12-21, 09:46

Hmm, I do not think Lelouch intends to destroy the world or allow the world to be destroyed in any case. Remember, his goal is to provide a world that is safe enough for Nanali to live in and that means that there can't be too much global chaos/wars. As such, he may be intending to become the new king to create this world of his or plan for the creation of such a system.

JediNight

2006-12-21, 10:54

Darkeyesrina

2006-12-21, 10:58

Welcome to the forums Bond.

Personally, I find it hard to read Lelouch and Kira on the same sentence. In GS, Kira was a protector on the first part (my favorite part), and then turned into a balanced force that wanted to stop the sense-less killing and not making the world white and black. I don't consider GSD worth talking.

I think Lelouch's original idea was to help create a country (taking Japan) that will be under his principles and be safe enough from any outside attacks following the guidelines that people mentioned here. But I honestly hope that Lelouch will change to a less radical position thanks to all the people around him. Watching Kallen's mother and her reaction was a bit shocking for him since he knew now why was she fighting for now.

Finally, I do think that we will see the end of the series with Lelouch getting hold of Japan, but I do believe that neither Suzaku or Nunnaly will stick with him as they will look for their own path.

JediNight

2006-12-21, 11:04

Yeah, I don't see this series wrapping up nice and tidy either. The entire point of the show so far has been to show the viewers how there are no absolutes in the world.

I think the shocking point to Lelouch later on may be realizing he's become what he hates, and played directly into the Emperor's hand. The Emperor wants the strongest to succeed the family, even if that means killing each other. So Lelouch doing this and lets say he does take over Brittania -- he is a successor by force and the "strongest" and I don't think the Emperor would feel anguish over "revenge" at all. I think he would actually quite pleased and happy with Lelouch.

evil|plushie

2006-12-21, 11:10

I think the emperor would be annoyed at Lelouch. On one hand, he succeeds the family by being the strongest, thus fulfilling the emperors desire. But otoh, he creates a world of the weak, where people like nanali can survive, which is definitely against the emperors wishes and which would probably piss the emperor off.

atilim

2006-12-21, 12:01

I wonder if the emperor care about how the world looks like after he dies. If the strongest must rule than he shouldn't care what that strongest person will do to his new empire.
But if he does care, then he would just simply make sure that the person hoe he see fiths should rule the empire. Like I got the feeling that he never itended to let Clovis rule, simply because of he was (a idiot).

And sticking to the topic.
I think that Lelouche ways is better than that of Suzaku. Lelouche actually nows how to accomplish his goal unlike Suzaku. Also it's not like he kills more people than the Empire, wasn't Clovis and Cornelia who were murdering the elevens and who was it that tryed to stop them. The only one's that will became worst of are the one's that will deserve it.
And what the hell could Suzaku change, it is now like that he would have any influence to change anything at the royal family. The only one that would be able to get along with him is Euphemia and her chases to became the empress is probely almost to nothing. Sombody would have to kill everybody that could take a claim to the trone and Lelouche and also Nunnaly before she could become a empress.

JediNight

2006-12-21, 13:44

atilim

2006-12-21, 14:58

I get Lacus vibes from Euphemia actually. I wouldn't be surprised if she starts growing more of a backbone later on in the series.

Prediction: Lelouch eventually kills Cornelia, and Euphemia is put into a position of leadership in Japan then in her place. Sorta a mix of the roles of Lacus and Cagalli from Gundam Seed basically. Her friendship with Suzaku will lead to her wanting to take a softer stance on the "11s" and probably being pressed to crackdown hard due to Zero and not wanting to.

If Lelouch kills Cornelia it's most likley that the emperor would go to area 11 or somebody that's stronger than Cornelia in order to deal with Zero, and note that Cornelia is one of the more powerful one's in the royal family. Zero's plan is basically is to defeated his father by annoying him enough as that he himself will go and fight against Zero.

shadowlord_756

2006-12-30, 18:37

The emperor doesn't seem like a fanatic to me so I find myself doubting that he will be happy about Lelouch taking revenge on him. He may provoke Lelouch but I kinda doubt that his morals are worth more than his life to him. On the question of whether the end justifies the means, isn't the end also influenced by the means? If by trying to create a world with no war Lelouch tears up the world and causes civil war then of course the end wouldn't justify the means because the end itself is whats wrong. But if he plays it smart and ends up creating a peaceful world in exchange for one or two wars then no one will blame him. After all if he didn't and wars continued even more people would have died over time. So all in all if the ending is acceptable then so is the means because the means is merely part of the end.

demon_god04

2006-12-30, 23:24

Suzaku didn't kill any terrorists in Shinjuku. He pulled a Kira, intentionally avoiding cockpits and letting them eject safely. And those guys were hardly innocent, they're enemy soldiers who chose to attack Britannia. We haven't seen enough of Britannia's policies to know what would happen if there weren't terrorists hiding among the civilians, so the whole massacre could be considered partially their fault anyway, from Suzaku's point of view. Unless Britannia kills civilians completely without provocation, which we haven't seen any evidence of despite their complete mercilessness after being provoked, then Suzaku's somewhat right to believe that stopping the terrorists is the path towards peace. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure he killed the cannon operators in episode 8. Of course, those guys had already taken and killed hostages. Anyway, Suzaku has shown nothing that implies he would kill innocents or judges people too quickly or anything.

Basically, Suzaku doesn't believe in terrorism. "The war is over, we lost, make the best of it." Fighting back is only going to make things worse for the people caught in the middle, which is clearly right. Especially if you're fighting back terrorist-style, which is probably long-term attrition with no victory in sight for either side. He's swallowing his Japanese pride and doing what he thinks is best for everyone. Britannia is cruel, and he knows that, but they're not demons, so there's hope for change. They already have an Honorary Britannian system, don't they? Maybe by becoming a model officer and showing that Elevens can be loyal, they'll start to relax their policies.

Provoked or not how can the massacre of civilians be justified? It is doubtful that the old couple or the crying child that was gunned down are guilty of harbouring the terrorists. They were killed simplily because Clovis needed to cover for the military and the "poison gas" being there.

And the Honorary Britannian system barely works, its more of just Britannia appearing to give the 11s a chance for PR purposes. The purists want the honourary britannians out of the military and as is evident in the series there are alot of prejudices against them. Remember Suzaku going to Ashford? The graffiti on his gym clothes? Kallen's mom? The hotdog guy? The system won't work as long as the people hold prejudices against the people the system is supposed to help. Sure the guys that did the graffiti and beat up the hotdog vendor might be amoung the more extreme, but think about Nina. The mere sight of an 11 is enough to scare her, because that person is differant and before even giving the person a chance she already made up her mind that he is scary. Additude like that makes the system look like a joke.

Let's assume instead of a peaceful treaty, Lelouch and his militia managed to crush all their opposition, kill many leaders and even some of Lelouch's half-siblings, and essentially took over control of the entire former nation of Japan...

Then what?

Obviously, Lelouch would want to go further. He would want his men to go forth across the Atlantic and fight in the American continent, then followed by the ultimate conquest of the British Isles.

But would his soldiers be willing to continue?
After all, they might oppose Britannia, but only for liberty. Once they got liberty, why would they want to keep fighting?

The only way things could work out for Lulu, is if somehow the Emperor visit Japan himself. Otherwise, with the seats of power so far away from Japan, Lelouch's allies simply wouldn't (and couldn't) support him all the way.

I think Lelouch is banking on the fact that if he takes out enough of the Royalty the Emperor can't afford to leave him alone at the risk of appearing weak in to the other major powers. Especially if Cornelia, acknowledged as one of strongest military leaders in Britannia, is defeated and killed. Ofcourse if he intends to take the throne for whatever reasons then he will need to venture out of Japan, but if his goal is just to topple Britannia by killing the Emperor then it's very likely that if Cornelia and the 2nd prince fails to take down Zero then the Emperor himself will take the matter into his own hands.

Anh_Minh

2006-12-31, 19:02

I think Lelouch's strategy is to liberate all the areas to break the power of Brittania. Once it's well under way, he'll tackle Brittania itself.

Back to the subject - I don't see how one could consider Suzaku as "whiter than white". He supports an imperialistic system in which conquered people are treated like subhumans. Even if in person he's nice to everybody and doesn't stain his own hands anymore than Clovis did, he shares in the sins of Brittania. When Brittanians kick Elevens just because they can, it might as well be his foot in the shoe.

If he was some pacifist writing pamphlets, I could respect him. But a soldier? Honestly, I don't get his stance on violence. Is it "it's alright, as long as you've got law on your side"? Or "it's alright, as long as I'm not there to witness it"? Or "it's okay if it's me doing it"? Or maybe some shifting compromise between the three? Anyway, there's something about it that screams "howling hypocrite".

As for Lelouch - so far, he hasn't done anything really bad. He certainly isn't the "ally of justice" he pretends to be, but so what? If he is to succeed, a bloodprice will have to be paid. But it's better than perpetuating Brittania.

atilim

2007-01-01, 06:22

I think Lelouch's strategy is to liberate all the areas to break the power of Brittania. Once it's well under way, he'll tackle Brittania itself.

I don't think that Lelouch have any intention in freeing the area's including area 11. Based on eps 9 he thinks that area 11 is better but the problem is the people. The strategy is to humiliate Brittania enough to bring his father to Japan and defeat him and along the way also discover hoe killed is mother.

Also about Suzaku he is just naive and a idiot. He can't change people and if he does something good in the eyes of his superiors the only thing he will probely get is a medal and a thanks nothing more so how would he be able to change anything. And is not if that fool will be respected like Zero, he will always be a traitor among the 11 and a monkey among the Brittaina so what can he doe.

Anh_Minh

2007-01-01, 06:28

Lelouch wants to destroy Brittania. Not just his father. It's going to take action on a global scale to do that.

Owaranai Destiny

2007-01-01, 06:58

It depends on how it boils down to-conquest, or bait?

The first option is rather plausible, but will probably take an exceedingly long time. Depending on how his encounters with the members of the royalty go (Cornelia, who should be looking to avenge her defeat or Prince Schneizel), even if he starts to liberate the Areas aside from Area 11, he's going to face fighting from all sides. Britannia is not that small just as to be confined to the North American continent, after all. They have been doing their homework in annexing other countries as well. If there was to be any better chance of success, Lelouch would need the help of the European countries or China, or any other countries raving to give a kick in the Empire's arse with a good backing behind them. Even then, the problem comes in with the time he needs and takes to do so.

Baiting is of course the other excellent option. Killing or defeating royalty in battle is an interesting way for baiting the Emperor, but I can't help but think that Britannia isn't giving it's full attention on Zero as of yet. (The troops so far tell me that they are only reinforcements brought in by Cornelia or those stationed in Area 11 itself, but not from the elite forces of Britannia) Only those in Area 11 are, and with Cornelia's defeat, maybe it just might be enough to catch the Emperor's attention-IF Schneizel does get in and somehow ends up returning with his tail between his legs, that is. Aside from that, it WOULD be a problem if the Emperor simply sends his children to fight Zero and end up with zero (no pun intended) inheritors to his throne. :p

Anh_Minh

2007-01-01, 07:08

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2007-01-01, 07:37

I don't like the idea of making it all a man-to-man contest. It should be about ideas and nations.

And there is the problem of, as I said, destroying Brittania. If the Emperor dies, another will just rise. Just killing him isn't enough.

Well, actually, that's sort of true and not true in the same time.:eyespin:

It's not true in the sense that there is a finite number of people eligible for the throne right now, and as such if they are all whacked, Britannia as a nation ruled by an Emperor could ceased to exist.

It is true in the sense that a tyrannical power, one way or another, would remain unless the entire nation of Britannia is turned on its head.
Perhaps the numerous noble houses could simply turn Britannia into an Aristocracy, which just means Britannia would essentially maintain its way of life without a stable ruler and as such is more prone to change of leadership by assassination every month or so.
Another possibility is one of the aspirating enemies of Britannia would march its armies over the weakened nation and "Do on to them what they had done to you." The roles reverse, but the oppression and violence would remain.

Let's make it clear; if Lulu's goal, beside getting revenge, was to make a safe haven for his sister, he would have a long way to go. Britannia had literally made the entire world its enemy, and as such it would take more than a dead emperor and a change in foreign policy to sate the other nation's thirst for retribution.

Personally? I believe Lelouch doesn't give a damn. He is out for revenge, and Lulu believe everything will work out if he just keep trying. Someone who could defeat the most powerful Empire in the world, he would reason, had nothing to fear from any weaker nations.

EDIT: Just a reminder, this is nothing but conjecture at this point; There isn't enough genuine current information we could work with concerning Lelouch's methodology, and only vague information on his future goals. Further, what I suggested is something far beyond the scope of 25 episodes. Yet without further information (like what the other foreign powers are really like), it would be silly to determine what happens in two years time when the new seasons might appear. After all, even just a minor adjustment of main characters could drastically alter the political landscape.^_^

Anh_Minh

2007-01-01, 08:02

Yeah. I just meant that killing only one guy - even if it's the Emperor - wouldn't be nearly enough to "destroy Britannia" in any meaningful way. He could very well be counting on the other nations taking advantage once he's weakened Britannia enough with internal strife. It's not like they wouldn't have reasons enough to want to destroy what military power Britannia has.

It does beg a question, though - how safe will Nanally and Lulu's classmates be, as Britannians among a freshly liberated Japan? That's probably another reason for his Allies of Justice shtick: so it isn't "Japanese against Briatannians" but "everyone against the corrupt people at the top".

demon_god04

2007-01-01, 11:54

It would really depend on how the other world powers view Britannia. If Lulu manages to kill the Emperor and all his children like he wants, there will be no legitiment successor to the throne, and history has shown us how well that works out for a country:heh: . The higher ranking officials will most definately make a grab as would powerful generals. Whatever the case there will be conflict, leaving Britannia vulnerable to external invasion. IF at this time suddenly a successor appears in the form of a thought to be long dead prince, he could come out of all of this smelling like roses by "uniting Britannia against the barbarian hordes".

Ofcourse this is just conjecture at this point, but I question if Lulu intends to bring the fight to Britannia. Right now in Japan Lulu has support and perhaps even an edge. Could Lulu even take on the Emperor if the Emperor has the homefield advantage in a britannian controlled area?

Anh_Minh

2007-01-01, 12:19

If Lelouch was on a strict time limit, and only wanted to kill the Emperor, then yes, his best shot would probably be a repeat of what he did against Clovis - and that he's so far failed to do to Cornelia.

But I think he wants a broader victory than that. He's in for the long haul, creating the conditions for a fall of Britannia. If he's to accomplish that, then whacking his father is almost incidental.

Varis

2007-01-01, 13:00

Morality???

I am convinced that Lulu has morals just as Suzaku has them. Morals are different from person to person though. His mother was murdered in front of him and his father betrayed his trust. He is clearly motivated by revenge (or a moral obligation?) but not blindly. In order to get to the right people, in order to interrogate those that know something, he will need power.
Geass is convenient but as he said himself, he would have done this anyways, the geass just sped his plans up.

If he can use Japan as a tool to break his father he will, if he has to use someone else, he will too. He seems to be very focused and keeps sight of his ultimate goal revenge on the murder of his mother and possibly revenge for his fathers betrayal.

His methods are not very extreme yet. He has not anything beyond what the other resistance fighters or britannians have done other then success. He may have to though. To break morale or bait out his father, he may have to do some very atrocious acts that will force britannia to react.

The ends never justify the means but without the means there will be no end. That's how I see it. Lulu will stain his hands pretty bad before this is all over but his way is by far the most plausible for success.

Suzaku is an idealist and contradicts himself. He means well but he is a pawn. Only the plot armor is keeping him alive from the people he sided with.

Changing things from within is very noble but he is not the right person to do it. Lulu would be in such a position. Announce his heritage and then rise up in the ranks.

This is anime though... I'm sure Suzaku will have Euphemia fall for him and with her influence make heart warming changes. She may even petition or stand up to the emperor for his sake. Like others, I'm getting the kira+lacus wibes.

Ah well, even though Suzaku may end up being the "good" guy of the show and Lulu the bad guy we feel empathic for, I agree with Lulu.

He has a plan and is sticking to it. He adapt as necessary, he puts his trust in the strengths of his allies and makes good use of it. He avoids unnecessary losses (pulling back when it was just a fight of attrition even if he could have won) and best of all, after getting to his enemy, (with a lot of people sacrificed on the way) he does not hesistate to pull the trigger.

That's the worst... I get sooo upset when everyone is dead around the good guy but with their sacrifice the bad guy was defeated. Yet, when it came to pulling the trigger he/she gets all teary eyed, the flashbacks kick in where the bad guy was not all that bad or misunderstood and they can't do it...

They "Banish" them or tell them humilitation is worse then death or perhaps that they won't "lower" themselves" to their level.... whichever excuse comes to mind to explain why they did not pull the trigger.

Selfrightheous people that FIGHT for a better world are deluding themselves. In the end their hands will be just as bloody as the ones they fight. It's a sacrifice they have to make in order to bring change.

demon_god04

2007-01-01, 13:01

Owaranai Destiny

2007-01-01, 23:49

Certainly his aim is to bring down Britannia, which hes doing by bringing down the leaders/figurehead of the empire. So far hes targeting the royalty, because one of the most effective way to destroy a monarchy would be to kill the ruler and his family. Granted theres more to it then that but regardless what Lulu does, if at the end of the day the Emperor lives then hes lost.

Come to think of it, that might actually be his goal all along-To eliminate all his 'siblings' and his 'father', thus creating a void in the succession of the throne in which he would be able to take over. What VCV said about Lelouch having two goals might actually play into this: Destroying the royalty which he so hates to exact vengeance, and creating a place or world in which he and Nanaly wouldn't need to face the same thing that happened to them so long ago. He needn't become an Emperor, but instead change Britannia into a nation of democracy or something else he deems less evil.

The operation may have failed against Cornelia but it was a really close shave for her, if the Lancelot had shown up a minuite later she would have ended up as another propagada tool a la Clovis. And also if he couldn't do it in Japan where the situation is still unstable and with backing from whatever organizations that are aiding him, what chances would he have in an area where he would have none of that?

The possibilities are limitless. Currently Lelouch is facing the problem of having support but too little people stepping up to the bat (A.K.A manpower shortage) in comparison with the Britannian military in Area 11. Putting aside the S factor, there are still other Areas in which Zero can draw his much needed resources from. Depending on his successes, which can easily translate into the failings of the Britannian government and a wavering of trust on the Britannian citizens' part. The situation can easily become unstable as well.

But that's just a theory, anyway. :p

Indeed, I have to agree with the views on Suzaku. It's going to irk me if he does succeed in the end with his goal. Not that his goal isn't admirable, but the way he's going about the change things doesn't seem plausible at all. If he wants to defeat Zero because his methods are "wrong", he's just a selfish bastard who's actually doing something that allows his confused heart to rest easy. Put this in an equation:

Suzaku defeats/kills Zero=Britannia kills Zero= Big blow to the hopes of Elevens wanting to be independent.

The way I see it, his way is what I would call 'self-gratifying'. Just like a typical male lead saying "I've done my best and that's enough." without caring about the implications. At the rate he's going, Suzaku's going to need to find a few successors to his goals, and my heartiest congraulations to him if he EVER does find one.

flou

2007-01-02, 00:12

I highly doubt making Britannia into a democracy in place of ruling over it as an emperor is one of his highest priorities. As past episodes and recent spoilers have indicated, Lelouch is not going to be morally sound by the end of the series. His goals are more ruthless and sinister. I think the difference between himself and Light of Death Note is that Light-O has delusioned himself into thinking he's a hero of justice and his actions benefit the world. Lulu doesn't envision himself in that way, but pretends to be that figurehead and manipulate his followers into accomplishing his own goals. Light-O thinks he's good, while Lulu knows what he's doing is evil (as his speech at the end of episode 1 implicated). According to spoilers on this forum as well as on the LJ community the power of geass has side affects. Not physical, mental degradation of morals, it seems. Someone awhile ago brought up the appearance of Freud's "Theory of the Super-Ego" was shown in the lab where C.C. was being studied and suggested that that means Lulu may eventually lack the sense to differentiate between right and wrong. The spoilers on LJ enforced this theory as well.
Becoming the emperor, although he hasn't mentioned it, seems to tie in with Lulu's goals well.

On the subject of Suzaku, I don't dislike him, but I don't agree with him at all because of his contradicting beliefs. I think Suzaku realizes he's a hypocrite, but tries to hide his real opinions in order to better fit into society (such as changing from "ore" to "boku." In an interview, someone stated that Suzaku was the "means," while Lelouch is the "ends." Suzaku tries to figure out a positive method or "means" of working out his plans, while Lulu doesn't consider the methods in order to achieve the "ends."

Mango_ice-cream

2007-01-02, 00:55

Still like that the main character is the one with the questionable means. Same thing as Death Note. Both Light and Luleuch have their own way of doing things... AND IT GETS THINGS DONE!!!

Owaranai Destiny

2007-01-02, 01:43

Viperus

2007-01-02, 08:35

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2007-01-02, 08:47

Looks like these "I'm Mr. Justice" anime are currently very popular (Jigoku Shoujo , Death Note , even Code Geass fits into that category)

Basicly , they are all morally wrong by God's teachings. But I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. I don't think you can defeat the people leading the country armed with invincible robots by JUST acting morally. He is in some way evil , but at least he doesn't kill innocent people.

Actually, technically Lulu does kill innocent people... He just doesn't target them specifically.:p
At least Lulu value human lives as a resource, which mean he doesn't waste them. But Lulu is quite ready to inflict collateral damage when necessary. That's all part of chess, really; you win by taking out the enemy King, and the amount of pieces surviving in the end, from either side, doesn't matter at all.

In politics, it is always about picking the more tolerable evil; people like Lacus Clyne don't really exist I am afraid.

Klashikari

2007-01-02, 08:59

Looks like these "I'm Mr. Justice" anime are currently very popular (Jigoku Shoujo , Death Note , even Code Geass fits into that category)

Basicly , they are all morally wrong by God's teachings. But I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. I don't think you can defeat the people leading the country armed with invincible robots by JUST acting morally. He is in some way evil , but at least he doesn't kill innocent people.

i will disagree with you. while lulu is indeed fighting against britannia, you can see that he is fighting for his cause, and not for justice (while he does have a sense of justice, it's rather shadowed by his own goal).
the irony here is : if lelouch's mother and nunally weren't attacked 7 years ago and were fine, lelouch could be one of the emperor's pawn. (or simply couldn't care less about the world)

and like Vallen said, yes he does kill innocent, but not really on purpose.
yet, if the collateral damage are unavoidable / a necessary, he will do it. (that is his "my end justifies my means", while he won't do anything useless)

Last_Hope

2007-01-02, 11:51

I don´t think I could ever do what Light is doing in Death Note. I personally thinks the whole concept of playing God is a bit scary to tell the truth. And besides, he´s aiming to rule the world as a dictator. In Death Note I´m on the police and L´s side.

As for Code Geass I think it feels more justified since it´s a war and so far Lelouch has aimed strictly for military targets. (Or am I remembering it wrong?) If he started aiming for civilian targets it would be different though but so far I think the ends justify the means in Lelouch´s case. He´s fighting another country which has invaded countless others and are aiming for pretty much the same thing as Light in Death Note.

Viperus

2007-01-02, 14:29

Actually, technically Lulu does kill innocent people... He just doesn't target them specifically.:p
At least Lulu value human lives as a resource, which mean he doesn't waste them. But Lulu is quite ready to inflict collateral damage when necessary. That's all part of chess, really; you win by taking out the enemy King, and the amount of pieces surviving in the end, from either side, doesn't matter at all.

In politics, it is always about picking the more tolerable evil; people like Lacus Clyne don't really exist I am afraid.

Maybe indirectly , bacause people are killed beacuse of his rebel actions (killing the whole sector to find the rebels) , but he hasn't directly killed/injured anyone innocent. And about his teammates.....he doesn't use them as decoys. He uses diversion tactics , but he always has a plan how to get the decoys back alive....at least for now :heh:

Dis Astranagant

2007-01-03, 04:41

I believe what we're seeing here is a sort of change in Lulu's ideas. First off, we see the Black Knights not really affiliating themselves as an anti Britannian faction. At one point, they even helped the Brits by:

Rescuing the hostages and saving Euphie.

Initially, one could suspect that Lulu's simply bending the rules so that he could gain further support and strengthen a resistance. This position that the Black Knights of Justice took on could create controversy even amongst the Britannians if they were eliminated. This is because their stance is to help those oppressed. Furthermore, their stance also is against those who oppress, but they keep it very general. This makes it easy for Lelouch to change the goals of the Black Knights specifically to Britannian Empire once he has built up enough strength.

However... Lelouch did something I did not expect.

He spared Euphemia li Britannia when there was a perfect oppurtunity to kill her. Lelouch could've easily made it look like the Japanese resistance eliminated her or even make it look like something more obscure. He has the power of the Geass, that makes it possible for making his victims even commit suicide.

This leads me to believe that his focus has changed from destroying the Britannian Empire to eliminating those who are conducting malicious acts within the Britannian Empire. Afterall, wasn't he the one who said somethingl like:

I eliminated Clovis because he was killing innocent people.

Of course, this is all hypothetical. His reason for not eliminating her could also have been the fact that he wanted to gain support from within the Britannian Empire so that he could tear them apart internally.

Anh_Minh

2007-01-03, 04:47

Nah. Sparing Euphemia was all part of his PR act. If he'd gotten her killed, no matter what it looked like, people would have suspected him.

There are also two other points:
- he had nothing against Euphie. She's never hurt him or even been a murderous tyrant like Clovis.
- keeping her alive left open the possibility of using her against Cornelia later on. If he'd killed her then, Cornelia would have been hurt, but she'd have moved on. Cornelia has so few weaknesses. Why waste even one?

Dis Astranagant

2007-01-03, 04:58

True, then again wouldn't Cornelia get into an emotional breakdown if Euphie was kiled? I would call that a weakness. Anyone who is in fits of rage or is just simply arrogant becomes extremely vulnerable to Lelouch's methods.

Furthermore, the royal family is the life source of the Britinnian Empire. At one point or another, if you want to bring that nation to their knees, you'll have to eliminate the royals. Why wait? Keeping them alive is a mistake because even if they're moved from power all it takes is some resistance of Purists to use one of the remaining as a catalyst.

Also if he ever does eliminate Cornellia, it's going to piss off Euphie. Since she has ties to Lancelot's pilot, who was:

One of the few people who made Lelouch extremely vulnerable at one point.

It's going to create some greater problems.

Anh_Minh

2007-01-03, 05:24

True, then again wouldn't Cornelia get into an emotional breakdown if Euphie was kiled? I would call that a weakness.
She'd get over it. And then, she'd only be more dangerous.

Anyone who is in fits of rage or is just simply arrogant becomes extremely vulnerable to Lelouch's methods.
I don't think Cornelia is the type to turn her brain off when she's angry.

Furthermore, the royal family is the life source of the Britinnian Empire. At one point or another, if you want to bring that nation to their knees, you'll have to eliminate the royals.
Not necessarily all of them.

Why wait?
To make a chess analogy, it's not mandatory to gobble up every vulnerable piece. And neither is it always a good idea. Sometimes it's better to leave it on the board where it hinders your opponent.

Keeping them alive is a mistake because even if they're moved from power all it takes is some resistance of Purists to use one of the remaining as a catalyst.
Once they're weakened enough, it may be a good idea to stop the bloodbath. If possible, convert the remaining royals to your cause. If not... they won't be worse than normal rebels or criminals.

Also if he ever does eliminate Cornellia, it's going to piss off Euphie. Since she has ties to Lancelot's pilot, who was:

One of the few people who made Lelouch extremely vulnerable at one point.

It's going to create some greater problems.
Not really. For one thing, Cornelia's the powerful and smart one. So she's the one Lelouch should be concerned about. Euphemia may grow into that someday, but she hasn't so far.

For another, Suzaku is already at the heel of the Britannians. Killing Euphie would only make it more difficult to turn him, not less.

Dis Astranagant

2007-01-03, 05:44

Very good points you bring up, you're probably right. Sadly this may cause him to pull a Yagami Light (ie Death Note). Anyways, we'll just have to see how it goes over the next few episodes.

Varis

2007-01-03, 08:02

Lulu didn't kill Euphy because he planned on going out there a second later and proclaim to be a champion of the oppressed. It would make little sense to kill of the oppressed before saving them =)

Also, he told Cornelia that he would save Euphy. Keeping credibility is important as a rising leader looking for allies.

SinsI

2007-01-04, 01:47

The real morality question in Code Geass is not an abstract question of who is evil or not.
Would Lelouch and Karen be able to attack Lancelot if they knew who pilots it? Would Suzaku be able to attack Zero if he knew his identity? Now, THESE are interesting questions.
I think the answer for the second one is 'yes' - he has no problem attacking somebody that saved his life, so he wouldn't hesitate to kill Lelouch.
Same for Karen - remember that "I know your secret" encounter with Shirley and her reaction.
But Zero - this one might actually decide against it, which makes him the most good guy of them all.

Last_Hope

2007-01-04, 05:25

I don´t know about that, since Suzaku is the one of these three that doesn´t want to kill and if he sees who Zero is then that would probably disable him for a while. I don´t think Lelouch will raise his weapon willingly against Suzaku either. But of course they might aswell realize that both of them doesn´t have a choice and still raise their weapons against eachother.

As for Kallen, I would be surprised if she would avoid attacking Lancelot after realizing whom the pilot is.

evil|plushie

2007-01-04, 07:05

But...suzaku has killed. Remember all the terrorists he's killed?

Nightengale

2007-01-04, 07:23

^

I dunno...he seems to avoid vital spots unlike Cornelia's Death Thrust. Besides, ejecting seems pretty easy and convenient in Knightmare piloting...(( as opposed to Gundams ))

The whole Lelouch letting Euphie go scenario can be summed up easily.

1. Cornelia don't give a damn about regular hostages.
2. To Cornelia, Euphie >>>>> Britiannia Resolve >>>>> Hostages.
3. Euphie is among hostages.
4. Cornelia cannot strike Zero without affecting or possibly harming Euphie, and Zero would be sleeping with the fishes had he killed Euphie since Cornelia would have ZERO (( no pun intended )) reason to hesistate bombarding Zero and his Knights.

Last_Hope

2007-01-04, 07:57

True, but as Nightengale wrote he doesn´t seem to only move in for the kill when he attacks and to add to the situation, he knows that Lelouch has a little sister to take care of. For Suzaku to try to kill Lelouch it´ll have to be a scenario taken out of a nightmare for him. Something extraordinary, a turning point where he has no choice.

evil|plushie

2007-01-04, 08:55

He did kill those terrorists in the tunnel. Their whole machine exploded

Viperus

2007-01-04, 13:01

He killed the terrorists that didn't eject , and the guys in the tunnel. He can't kill Zero because he'd be dead without Zero. I suspect that Lelouch influenced the judges with geass , to release him.

bond4154

2007-01-04, 16:46

The comparison between Lelouch and Light seems rather inappropriate to me.

Light has lost sight of his original goals, and has set out to win, no matter what the cost, on the basis of his own personal ambition. He shows little to no emotion, perhaps even glee, when killing innocents or those who pose even the mildest threat to him. Light's prerogative has shifted from "punishing the wicked" to "destroying L". You no longer see any genuine emotion from Light anymore, other than smugness, glee, and anxiety.

Lelouch, however, is quite different. From beginning to end (or, so far as I can tell), Lelouch has been trying to topple Britannia and shelter the weak (obviously from his early experience with the royal family). Like Light, he is willing to act towards a certain means, and he hates losing, but, unlike Light, he does show genuine emotion, including worry for his friends, pity for Kallen in Episode 9 (you can tell by his voice as he says "Is that her mother?" that he was shaken), and when he thanks C.C. He's proud, but not unreasonable.

Wolfpack

2007-01-09, 14:01

I haven't read all the posts and am relatively new here.

I agree with JediNight. Lelouch is currently following a path that doesn't necessarily go against his father's ideals. I also agree with that it's hard to define absolutes. Such as killing's a sin but under certain circumstances is justified.

Lelouch's path is exactly what everyone in history has been doing. People revolting against a foreign invader/tyrannic ruler. Britannia doesn't treat the people as they conquer as people really. The conquered are treated as less than people, almost like slaves. The royal family views them as bugs, Clovis killed innocents, Cornelia killed unarmed men. Not to mention Cornelia could have potentially killed her own men in episode 7. If I were them I would have I said "I didn't sign up for this shit. Where's it say in the army pamphlet that I die for not following orders?"

Also while Lelouch is doing what the Japanese want his motives are not exactly with them. He's doing this for Nanaly and himself while it's not as grand or selfless as say Suzaku, I believe it makes more human. Because not everyone's made out to be so selfless. In other words a Kira Yamato or Lacus Clyne kind of but not exactly.

Lelouch isn't out to be emperor but to get revenge on the people who think its okay to crush each other and abandon the weak. Survival of the fittest shouldn't be the only thing to define us.

Some say that fighting doesn't end things and that we need to talk it out. Well usually people don't start talking until someone wins or a war comes to a standstill. It would be nice if everything in this world could be solved by talking but it can't because humanity isn't capable of it yet. Humanity itself needs to change inorder for that to be possible. For now though the quickest way is to find a clear victor. Maybe if the Britannia Empire wasn't so screwed up then the conquered peoples might be less prone to terrorism.

When Lelouch found out people died (Shirley's dad) in episode 12 we discovered he dropped the ball. We really can't ignore that Lelouch screwed up a little. Still even though Suzaku got mad at Zero for the casualties what about all the innocent people who were killed by Britannia? I mean the special squad he was with in the beginning killed so many innocents to conceal Clovis' little project. What I'm trying to say is innocent people are still gonna get killed even if Zero dissappears.

But really what the hell was Shirley's dad doing in a combat area when there even a couple of vans going around the area announcing a battle would take place shortly in Narita. If I heard that I'd get out of bed, get my clothes, and get the hell out of town.

Suzaku, man I have to get this off my chest. I really hate this guy. What he says is all nice and good but why the hell is he saying something and doing something else? When the terrorists act he gets pissed, when Cornelia gunned down unarmed men he didn't even squeak. He may want to change it from the inside out but the reality is he is supporting the government, the empire that even he admits is corrupt. He says so in episode 4 at the end. Let us not forget that it is the people Suzaku is working for that are considered the bad guys. Suzaku's ideas are all nice and pretty but for now they're just dreams. He also isn't in a position to do anything really. He's just a grunt.

People say his relationship with Euphie could actually change things in the government but this isn't going to happen unless Euphie becomes empress or atleast more powerful then she currently is. She showed us courage in episode 8 when she stood up for Nina. But in episode 10/11 she showed us she's human and that she scared and sometimes even crumbles when she was torn between helping her sister and listening to her orders.

Probably have more to say later when I finish reading the posts.

Anh_Minh

2007-01-09, 18:32

Would his father be proud of how well Lelouch learnt his lesson? Would he be happy if Lelouch killed him, showing off his fitness to survive? Maybe he's twisted enough for that. But that wouldn't stop Lelouch, either. It never was about scoring a philosophical or moral victory over his father. It's about revenge and fear. And, in a roundabout way, about justice, too, even though the posing about it is for PR. Only an idiot ponder's the difference between vengeance and justice while he's got a boot to his neck. Get the boot off first, have a philosophical debate over your victory beer.

SoldierOfDarkness

2007-01-09, 19:05

People say his relationship with Euphie could actually change things in the government but this isn't going to happen unless Euphie becomes empress or atleast more powerful then she currently is. She showed us courage in episode 8 when she stood up for Nina. But in episode 10/11 she showed us she's human and that she scared and sometimes even crumbles when she was torn between helping her sister and listening to her orders.

And most people like to forget parts like where it was stated that Euphie wanted to see what a true battle would look like. She's willing to change and learn. It was her first time on the battlefield and she's not exactly "general" material, of course she would crumble between orders.

But really what the hell was Shirley's dad doing in a combat area when there even a couple of vans going around the area announcing a battle would take place shortly in Narita. If I heard that I'd get out of bed, get my clothes, and get the hell out of town.

The landslide went ALL the way down from the mountain PASSED the G1 headquarters, which was where all of the refugees were taking shelter from the battlefield. And Shirley's dad obviously wasn't the only one affected. So it's very likely that many people who were still escaping got caught up in the landslide. Or he may have been in the mountain working.

Suzaku, man I have to get this off my chest. I really hate this guy. What he says is all nice and good but why the hell is he saying something and doing something else? When the terrorists act he gets pissed, when Cornelia gunned down unarmed men he didn't even squeak.

Maybe because he wasn't there?:heh:

Would his father be proud of how well Lelouch learnt his lesson? Would he be happy if Lelouch killed him, showing off his fitness to survive? Maybe he's twisted enough for that. But that wouldn't stop Lelouch, either. It never was about scoring a philosophical or moral victory over his father. It's about revenge and fear. And, in a roundabout way, about justice, too, even though the posing about it is for PR. Only an idiot ponder's the difference between vengeance and justice while he's got a boot to his neck. Get the boot off first, have a philosophical debate over your victory beer.

His father would be proud of him though, axing off the other family members.

Though IMO Lelouch is way too blinded by his vengeance. There's no way the world can be made safer when the largest power in the world is wiped out or collapses. You get various warlords vying for power which results in civil wars and then there's the EU and Chinese Federation which obviously would take advantage of the situation but I'm probably looking too deep into this :heh:

Blue_Mercy

2007-01-09, 19:06

If I'm answering the question asked in the title to both Lelouch and Suzaku, then I'll answer it like this.

Many people have already expressed the same opinions as I will.

Suzaku has a snowballs chance in hell of changing the Britannia system to the way he wants it. I don't care if he wins a million battles with Lancelot. Honestly, I don't know how Suzaku can get angry at Zero while fighting for Britannia. If he did manage to change it with Euphemia, I would lose so much respect for this series. It would also show me that Sunrise just likes to create happy endings, with a few people suffering along the way.

Lelouch is a character that had his mother killed,sister blinded, and paralyzed. So far his reactions to everything that has happened is very well done. Many people have stated that Lelouch is an evil genius. Why? There were only two times where I can see his actions being evil. In Shinjuku where Suzaku had to save those people, and the landslide destruction. I know this might make me sound like a heartless bastard, but Lelouch has declared war on Britannia. Can you honestly say that America hasn't killed civilians while at war with someone? Of course not. All we have to base our experience on is history. History tells us that when you fight a war, innocent people are going to get hurt.

Another point that people brought up is that Lelouch is simply waging war on Britannia for his personal revenge. Your kidding me, right? If Lelouch's vengeance is for two people, how does that compare to the hundreds if not thousands of Japanese that have been butchered?

Next is that people want to know what reason will the Japanese have to keep fighting Britannia if they get Japan back? I have several reasons, but have narrowed it down to the best three

1) What exactly would stop Britannia from simply rebuilding it's strength and taking back Japan in a few years? Apparently, Japan or Area 11 as Britannia calls it is getting them a lot of money so it's worth fighting for to them.

2) Japanese are extremely loyal, so if Zero were to get them there country back I highly doubt they would just say, "Oh thanks Zero we were just using you till we got our country returned to us."

3)This might seem trivial but Lelouch finds ways to win battles. If you can keep winning battles why do you want to risk letting a country that could keep attacking you go?

The last point is people have asked what does Lelouch plan to do if he succeeds in bringing down Britannia? This question is tougher, and I actually think what happens to Nanaly would be key to this. If she were to do get killed (if this were to happen I would hope that Lelouch drags Britannia to hell) then I think Lelouch's treatment of Britannians would be much crueler and very similar to the way 11's are treated. However, if she continues to live and he was able to create that peaceful world for her then I believe his new country would be much more peaceful assuming he wins.

I know many may disagree with what I said, but this is at least how I feel.

antheonoileo

2007-01-10, 08:21

Maybe because he wasn't there?:heh:

Hey hey, you are just kidding, aren't you ? :heh:

Yes, Suzaku talks good about morality, justice or peace, but he only applied his ideal for the sake of army side. Ex: in Sujuku (dun remember, in ep 1), he knowed that the army were killing a lot innocents (if not, he should have known after that, otherwise the only thing he had inside his head was trash) but he still willing to support the army. In the surface we see he only defeated the "terrorists" while trying not to kill them (in reality, it is not really feasible though), saving the person that fell down while Lulu didn't really care about the casuals. It is what Sunrise shows us. Real consequence of their actions is that Lulu did save a lot of people (he led the fight with the army who was killing both terrorists and innocents, and threathened Clovis to spare their lives) while what Suzaku really did is to help the army kill people. Though he didn't kill anyone (a bit comicaly), without Lulu he would have indirectly kill a lot.

In ep 7, even Cornelia admited that they need Zero's help and it is easily to see that attacking from the outside as Suzaku did may brings to the death of the hostages as the terrorists will kills them when they feel their loss. But in ep9, Suzaku still asked the BK to wait for the police (for him) to show off. It seems to me he was so into his self-rightenousness that he didn't care about the hostages'lives

And of all, Suzaku was pissed of at Zero's every moves. Sometimes, it is understandable (like in ep 11, but what Suzaku did then is not trying to help victims but only saved Cornelia) but sometimes (especially in ep 9) it seems to me he has some kind of jealousity or sth - of course, Sunrise will say: No, you go too far ^_^)

Anyway, did Suzaku kill his father for his righternousness ? Maybe his father tried to use the Sakuradite techniques to defeat Britania and conquer the world or so. Or maybe he tried to prevent his father from doing harm to Lulu, but it conflicts with his words (He said in ep 4 or 6: for peace, "My father HAD to die")

Viperus

2007-01-10, 12:56

Everything Suzaku said is....how should I put it....bullshit :D

1. he gets shot by his friends , the army. Then he claims he wants to change the army from the inside by obeying their orders and killing people from his own country.

Not to mention the fact that if Zero hadn't saved him , he'd be executed by Britannia.

So , now he is facing a serious dilemma , to join the guy who is helping the weak and opressed , or the military which tried to kill him several times , exluding the time they used him as bait for the super-powered cannon.

But then again , who wouldn't want to be exploited just to be able to pilot top-class weapon , and flirt with a pink haired girl.

His metod is pure idiotism , killing the people he wants to protect , so he can change the military (currently , he has 0 influence , way to go). But after he's done , will there be anybody to protect? Not only that he isn't stopping the military's masacr , he's even helping them. He isn't killing unarmed people, but he knows what the army does to 11's , and still remains in the army , that doesn't help the weak and the opressed.

At least Zero is killing his sworn enemies , rather then the people he wants to protect.

True , Lelouch indirectly killed that girl's father , but he was a soldier , not some innocent civillian.

So lets sum it all up.

Lelouch: deals a major blow to Britannia , saves the hostages , 11's and some Britannians love him. He had some mayor success.

Suzaku: endangeres hostages by his rash actions , the military doesn't trust him , nobody's ever heared of him. He has a mental breakdown while piloting Lancelot.
He failed his mission every time.

I'd have to say it's 1:0 for Lelouch

etothex

2007-01-11, 03:31

The subject of morality is really a odd issue, since this is a war, and wars tend to be the polar opposite of the ideal moralistic situation. Frankly I find it amusing that many would consider Lelouch evil - what kind of pansy definition of evil that would be. How then would one classify the likes of Saddam Hussein and Hitler, whose transgressions against humanity far outshine Lelouch's. I'm not arguing he's a champion of good, but frankly the stuff he could be doing, especially with his new powers could be sooooo much worse.

I read through most of this thread, but don't recall if this issue was addressed. In the 2nd episode, L could have just fled, and left the rebels on their own. He had the power to help them. From the moralistic high ground standpoint, wouldn't he HAVE to have used his abilities to help them, or else suffer eternal guilt or whatnot?
Also considering his power, he could have just killed off every single person on his way to Clovis, I mean that would have inspired a crapload of fear. We see plenty of incidents in which he could simply tell people to die, but doesn't, so I was a bit surprised he had the JLF members in ep 8 off themselves. Still he doesn't seem to just wander into military areas and kill off everybody so I'll forgive him for that incident. Nor does he wantonly use the Geass to do "evil" things (Kallen's immune, but hey he could get a free strip-tease from Milly). I guess what I'm saying is instead of evil being what he does, I'm thinking it's more what he does that he is capable of doing.

I respect L more for knowingly walking a path that will tarnish his soul, versus hiding behind chivalrous words like Suzaku.

I agree with the above posts in my utter disgust with Suzaku's morales. I don't hate him outright, but all this talk about change is simply talk, since he has not yet done one thing to bring change, unless you count killing Japanese people as bringing change. The thing that pissed me off the most was the end of ep 4, where he said he would die to save others blah blah. If he dies, his goals of saving people, and changing the world end, simple as that. What can he hope to achieve then.

To effectively bring about change(in the human world at least), you need POWER. (I'm not trying to sound like the Brittanian Emperor. Power can be something other than military might.) That is what I see as the fundamental difference between L and Suzaku (not the good/evil thing). Lelouch and Suzaku have both achieved a sort of power that will allow them to affect the world on a larger scale. L seizes the chance to use it, while Suzaku wants to wait around like a moron, and hope for the better.

bond4154

2007-01-11, 13:43

Renegade334

2007-01-11, 13:52

The funny thing is that you guys keep saying Suzaku kills people. I've only counted two kill counts so far, and that was the two Japanese Liberation Front soldiers using that rail gun. As opposed to the others, whose kill count goes beyond the norm.
Disarming them so that they can be executed later on as part of Britannia's procedures to 'make safe the area' isn't any better. Even if his intentions are pure, he doesn't make their situation any shinier. His compatriots still end up dead because Britannia doesn't seem to hold much importance to PoWs unless it's someone holding power and therefore bearing the seeds of a political scandal, or someone like Zero (who should logically be brought illico presto to an Imperial Court of Justice and, a millisecond after giving his name to the judge, to the gallows for regicide). As such, the Elevens only have a chance to survive if there is a resistance to the Britannian troops. If the said resistance is wiped out or neutralized, they are doomed, as seen in ep02. Suzaku, instead of helping them run away, just leaves them unprotected to the hordes of riflemen waiting for the order to gun Elevens down.

Saying 'stop fighting' to rebels fighting for their invaded country and their peers is one thing. I can understand the Peace & Love speech although I'm not thrilled by it. But offering his compatriots as helpless sacrifices to his Britannian deity's altar while polishing the belief he's just done a good deed by disarming them is another. Thing is, if he's aiming to better the 11s' living conditions and saving their lives, well, he's completely off the mark - his fighting doesn't help them at all. One can even consider it as helping the Britannians kill his fellow 11s.

To my knowledge, the only one who could beat Suzaku flat at this game would be Amagi Kouga from the Zetman manga.

Anh_Minh

2007-01-11, 14:38

The funny thing is that you guys keep saying Suzaku kills people. I've only counted two kill counts so far, and that was the two Japanese Liberation Front soldiers using that rail gun. As opposed to the others, whose kill count goes beyond the norm.

As Renegade said, our issue isn't with the people Suzaku personally kills. It's with the people and system he so actively and competently supports. Plenty of people supported the nazi regime, or the murderous dictatorial regime of your choice, without ever pulling a trigger. Do you think they were right? That their hands are clean?

bond4154

2007-01-11, 15:44

Suzaku also tries to change it. True, he's more likely to get a bullet to the head, but, with the blessings of the royal family to pilot Lancelot, I suppose he's relatively safe at the moment.

Anh_Minh

2007-01-11, 16:10

Tries to change it? How does he do that, exactly? By showing the Britanians what a good dog he is?

SoldierOfDarkness

2007-01-11, 18:52

Tries to change it? How does he do that, exactly? By showing the Britanians what a good dog he is?

I'm going to get flamed for this but...

By getting them to accept him as he said so himself in earlier episodes in which he's trying to help out those who try to be honorary britannians which Lelouch said isn't hard. At the same time he wants to minimize casualties (With those knightmares it's not too hard to disable a unit). Suzuka seems to be a, "Forget the past, focus on the future as that's what's left." Find yourself a place in the new world. Before Cornelia just keeps him in the reserves, now he's on the frontlines (of course could someone tell me what Dalton was talking to Suzkua about that made him mad?)

Aside from dealing with terrorists, I'm surprised at the "assimilation plans" of the Britannian Empire in which they get the conquered people to rule themselves and provide support. According to Oogui, things were pretty decent under Clovis.

EDIT: Right now I'm a little concerned with Lelouch after episode 13. Up to now I think he's killed off more Japanese people than Suzuka has...:heh:

I think Lloyd is the one who can put Suzuka's mind on the right track or is at least the one who can "snap" him back to reality. Plus, I think we need to see more of Suzkua's background to at least see what in god's name led him to this.

Skyfall

2007-01-11, 18:58

Suzaku is not doing anything to help Japaneese AT ALL. Only in his own illusional world that is out of touch with reality. He is minimalizing casulties for Britanian army, and this just becomes worse by being put in the front lines, compared to being in reserve. What he is doing is the exact opposite of helping Japaneese.

He is a dog of the military, nothing more, nothing less. He can't (and it seems does not want) to go against it, and he certainly can not change anything "from inside" .... not like he is trying anyway.

The best way to describe Suzaku - talk is cheap.

SoldierOfDarkness

2007-01-11, 19:07

I was talking about the honorary britannians actually in general. In which Suzuka asked, "Is it still not enough for them to accept us?"

The best way to describe Suzaku - talk is cheap.

What do you think Lloyd is there for?

Anh_Minh

2007-01-11, 19:20

I'm going to get flamed for this but...

By getting them to accept him as he said so himself in earlier episodes in which he's trying to help out those who try to be honorary britannians which Lelouch said isn't hard.
He could do that - more easily, in fact - without being a soldier.

At the same time he wants to minimize casualties (With those knightmares it's not too hard to disable a unit).
He never planned on being a knightmare pilot. Only luck made him more than an easily disposable grunt. And even as a knightmare pilot, all he's doing is helping Britania keep its dominion over Japan. It doesn't help the Japanese at all.

SoldierOfDarkness

2007-01-11, 19:32

He could do that - more easily, in fact - without being a soldier.

Like what? Britannian is a nation that thrives on conquests and fighting.

He never planned on being a knightmare pilot. Only luck made him more than an easily disposable grunt. And even as a knightmare pilot, all he's doing is helping Britania keep its dominion over Japan. It doesn't help the Japanese at all.

Which allows him to achieve his "ideal dream":heh: *raises shield* There's no better way than to be an auxillary soldier piloting a machine that he's not suppose to be piloting and excelling in each of his missions. Techincally speaking, he shouldn't even BE there.

Besides, I never said anything about helping the Japanese. I said helping Honorary Britannians, those who try to find a place in the Britannian world. As Lelouch stated, all there is left to it is pride. It would be very difficult for Japan to wrest control back to themselves, especially with Lelouch axing off most of their soldiers and generals:heh: Even then, the recovery would be difficult, especially with the inevitable civil wars that could follow.

Wolfpack

2007-01-11, 19:58

Also considering his power, he could have just killed off every single person on his way to Clovis, I mean that would have inspired a crapload of fear. We see plenty of incidents in which he could simply tell people to die, but doesn't, so I was a bit surprised he had the JLF members in ep 8 off themselves. Still he doesn't seem to just wander into military areas and kill off everybody so I'll forgive him for that incident. Nor does he wantonly use the Geass to do "evil" things (Kallen's immune, but hey he could get a free strip-tease from Milly). I guess what I'm saying is instead of evil being what he does, I'm thinking it's more what he does that he is capable of doing.

Lelouch killed the JLF guys because the Major with the sword was going to kill him, and he had to kill everyone else in case they tried to follow the Major. Maybe also to keep his powers secret.

It's been briefly touched on but War is definitely ugly so its hard if at possible to say who really has the moral high ground. Despite that I think Lelouch is doing the only thing he really can. When he was granted the power of Geass by CC he couldn't just stand back anymore.

Suzaku's methods are nice and pretty but he's not really in the right position to advocate people's rights. Plus what he's talking about will probably take generations at least because the Britannia people problably think like the King-cast away the weak, survival of the fittest.

I think the funeral was a important event for Lelouch. In the future he'll probably benefit from this and not follow his father's path.

evil|plushie

2007-01-11, 21:47

Blue_Mercy

2007-01-11, 22:45

:topicoff:

Wolfpack that isn't a quote from my post.

Anyway, episode 13 just reaffirms what I have previously said about Suzaku. I could continually bash his character, but it has just gotten to the point where Suzaku is able to watch Britannia do horrible things and still say "Yes my lord". He's so hellbent on stopping Zero that he doesn't question his own people's actions anymore.

It's good to see Lelouch still has his resolve even after going to a funeral he caused, also showing that he still feels sorrow. It's a good thing C.C. was there to straighten him out.

SoldierOfDarkness

2007-01-12, 00:56

Lelouch killed off more japanese than britainnians? Are we watching the same show here? Let's see.... episode 1) killed off a bunch of britainnian soldiers episode 2) killed off EVEN more britiannian soldiers, episode where cornelia shows up) killed off even more britiannian soldiers. got his own men killed, episode where euphie is captured) kills off renegade JLF members, episode 11) killed off a lot of britiannian troops in a landslide.

Sorry that was a mistake on my part. I'll edit that to avoid confusion.

I meant to say Suzuka since were focusing on that part.

BTW you forgot that Lelouch killed several JLP fighters during the landslide, killed many civilians (As we see from the medical centers), and killed off a large remant of the JLP and their main leader.

As for Suzaku, so far he's killed off more japanese than he's saved. Episode 2) saved 1 japanese lady from falling to death, episode 8) killed off those JLF guys. Otoh, he's helped to minimised casualties for britainnia several times.

Well for 8) those were renegade JLF guys(enemies, Suzkua's not helping them anyways) so they wouldn't count anyways. So going back to my post, Lelouch has alot more blood on both sides. (I don't critize Lelouch either, he does what is necessary to achieve his goals)

Helping the honourary britainnians? What about those who dont want to be honourary britainnians? So basically, all Suzaku is doing is supporting the exact same structure of the strong (britainnians and people who want to be brits) oppressing the weak (the conquered people). If you think that's admirable or moral, then that's fine. But thats what it is.

That was one of the reasons why Suzuka declined Zero's offer, if he joined him, then the other honorary britannians and elevens would be persecuted by the purists faction. It's also as I stated that pride which Lelouch pointed out as honorary britannians are still looked down upon. Suzuka himself is looked down upon as well but things are looking up for him. If he can set an example, then would not others follow him?

I never said it's admirable(Geeze I'm not saying any of this at all!), I'm simply stating that's the reality of the situation which even Lelouch states himself. Japan itself is in a much stronger area due to the Britannian Empire and as the council stated themselves, they want the japanese to rule over themselves just like the rest of the areas.

You want admirable? I admire both Lelouch and Suzuka. Together they can change the world. Lelouch is taking on the biggest empire in the world and all he's got is a mind controlling power and a small army that remains skeptical of him in which he has to lie and decieve. Suzuka joins an army that looks down upon him yet here he is rising within their ranks which isn't even possible for someone like him. I'm rethinking what Anh stated, it is possible to do it another way, one changes from the outside, the other from the inside. Suzkua doesn't realize it and perhaps Lelouch doesn't either. But then we wouldn't have out interesting story now would we?;)

antheonoileo

2007-01-12, 02:06

Suzuka joins an army that looks down upon him yet here he is rising within their ranks which isn't even possible for someone like him. I'm rethinking what Anh stated, it is possible to do it another way, one changes from the outside, the other from the inside

*Sigh* I dun wanna repeat my (and many others' previous posts) but it seems you skipped them so in short:

- Suzaku (hey, is his name Suzuka now ? Why many posts call him that ?) indeed "rising within their ranks" just by (1) being a dog of the army (his lords in particular) without any disobeydience, dispite the massacres done by the army at the times, (2) saving one civilian and a lot of Britanian solders who are massacring 11s*, noting that whom he focused to save the most - half of the time of his Lancelot show-off - are his lords (3) helping the army to kill a lot of 11s (though he may not realize about that)

Dun compare the number Lulu's killed with that Suzaku's, as

- Lulu has declared war. In the history, hardly to see any army hero existed without bloody hands. I dont say he is innocent but he doesn't say it either. Meanwhile, Suzaku joined the evil army, following every orders and almost indirectly kill many ppl but he still think he is totally good and has the right to critize Zero ? Shameless person.

- The fact that Suzaku only personally killed some terrorists so far is what makes the story unreal. Besides, thanks to Zero's moves that he didn't indirectly kill those in ep 1, and that his princess was saved (with his stupid attack, the success will be only 30%), etc

--> Conclusion: He is just a solder, no more, no less. He may achieve sth in the future, which happens just because of the anime cliche (and which makes the anime worse in my view). What I hate him the most is that he distributes his love and hatre impulsively. Why he talks all good about the corrupt gov (in fact, it is not only corrupt but evil, cruel, and racist) and his ideal to change it inside, not only didnt he intend to do sth (beside obeying like a dog), he didn't show any anger to their act of inhumanity. But he pisses off at Zero, his savior, 's every move. He should understand that until now, all the time his side is the one who attack first.

*If anyone dun like me using 11s instead of Japanese, it is just because I use it in Suzaku's view

quina

2007-01-12, 02:18

You guys pretty much said all my reasoning... I will just say what I feel.

I hate Susaku.
I hate Euphie
I hate their romance.

I hate Kira
I hate Lacus
I hate their romance.

Still they are getting voted top anime char
I don't understand,
I hate them.
I hate them.

Susaku potentially can be one of my favarite char, if sunrise choose to have split personality in him. Dark bloodless, cold alternate personality, dressing all black might be really cool. But dah, Sunrise just blew it.

Its not about "Do end justify the mean?" anymore. Susaku KILL to achieve his goal just like Lulu. They are really the same, but Susaku keeps blurting out BS contradicting his action.

In ep 13
He insult Lulu that he is just a murderer. He do not consider the victim's feeling.

BUT looks what he freaking did in the same episode. He spend most of time helping Conalia in her cold blood plan, one side killing. RIGHT BACK AT HIM! Does he even think about the victim!?

Change it from inside? BS! what were you doing!? running around shooting people is a way to change it from inside?

Santa Claus

2007-01-12, 02:31

To be fair, Suzaku wouldn't have gotten anywhere near his current lofty position without Lulu/Zero out there tearing it up with the Britannians. In fact, he'd still be a reserve unit if it weren't for Zero catching the military off guard so many times.

I believe others have said this before, but ol' Suzie's goals are completely out of touch with reality (as it stands in CG.) He's as insane as they come. Reform Britannia from within?! The hell? I'd really like a hit of whatever he's smoking, because it has to be Grade A stuff.

He is a Number. Numbers don't get anywhere in the Britannian military. All he would be doing is helping the Britannians to further their plans. Sure, life for the Japanese would be better once the resistances have been crushed. They'd have to swallow their pride and endure daily mistreatment, but hey, at least they won't be killed en masse. Maybe. On the other hand, perhaps the Empire will see the error of their ways once they see what an obedient Number he is. I can just picture the Emperor during tea time, deciding to revolutionize Britannian way of life. All because Suzaku dedicated his life to following orders. You know, because so many other RL empires have done the same with the people in their conquered territories: Rome, Carthage, Persia, Han China, Aztecs, etc.

The only problem I personally have with his "method" is that without Zero, it totally would not work. Zero killed Clovis, which directly caused him to meet up with Euphie and allowed him to be given a chance with the Lancelot. These are really his only weapons in his quest to reform Britannia from within.

And without his list of accomplishments and list of contacts: who is going to listen to him? Lloyd? Please.

antheonoileo1

2007-01-12, 03:43

I can just picture the Emperor during tea time, deciding to revolutionize Britannian way of life. All because Suzaku dedicated his life to following orders.

Hey, it's unimaginable :heh: What those emperors did was not because of that reason :heh: Besides, this is an extreme case n the emperor is so cruel and ... hm... mad :heh:

Suzaku ? We have an idiom like this "Robbing and crying like victim at the same time" :D

(I'm in my sis' side ^_^, hating him so much. How can Euphie like that man !!!)

Anh_Minh

2007-01-12, 04:18

Like what? Britannian is a nation that thrives on conquests and fighting.
Any civillian job, really. If you want to change Britania's militaristic ways, anything is better than condoning them by enlisting. Short of conquering them and breaking their power, of course.

That was one of the reasons why Suzuka declined Zero's offer, if he joined him, then the other honorary britannians and elevens would be persecuted by the purists faction.
At the point they're at, a bit more, a bit less, who's going to notice? That's the point, really. Japanese are already treated as subhumans.

It's also as I stated that pride which Lelouch pointed out as honorary britannians are still looked down upon. Suzuka himself is looked down upon as well but things are looking up for him. If he can set an example, then would not others follow him?
He's part of a semi-secret project of the military. He isn't setting an example for anyone. The only ones who know what he's doing are Britanian soldiers and the princesses. None of them are likely to be swayed by his example.

I never said it's admirable(Geeze I'm not saying any of this at all!), I'm simply stating that's the reality of the situation which even Lelouch states himself. Japan itself is in a much stronger area due to the Britannian Empire
He said that to not blow his cover. Don't pay that much attention to it.

What's the point of a better economy if only the Britanians profit from it? What's the point of having less crime if it's legal to harass and kill the Japanese?

and as the council stated themselves, they want the japanese to rule over themselves just like the rest of the areas.

No. Otherwise, what was Clovis there for? And Cornelia after him? The Numbers don't get to rule themselves. What they get is a Number interface between them and the Brits. But they're still slaves.

atilim

2007-01-12, 07:07

Nanaya

2007-01-12, 08:13

In the end Suzaku is been naive and domb and Lelouch is the only one hoe is really doing something.
However you look at it Suzaku doesn't achieve anything but Lelouch on the other hand accomplishes all the conditions in order to win.

Actually, what Suzaku is doing takes time. It takes patience and a clear, logical mind. And a lot of self-sacrifice.

What Lelouch is achieving is getting more Britannians to distrust the Elevens more, leading to more discrimination against them.

Suzaku, by changing the minds of the princesses and those in the military higher-ups, CAN create a great reform throughout the empire that could even stop the Britannian dog of war from moving. It is by gaining the trust of the Britannians that Elevens, and Numbers as a whole, can be trusted and be believed in as equal citizens of the Empire.

IF Suzaku succeeds with what he is doing, by proving himself as competent as any other Britannian out there, THAT could change and help everyone without any more bloodshed the way that Lelouche is doing.

Not everything can be solved by the barrel of a gun. Discrimination is more thoroughly eradicated by proper education and through the spread of trust, rather than shooting someone, who's loved one at home will, in turn, just become more discriminating and prejudiced than they were in the beginning.

atilim

2007-01-12, 08:30

Nanaya

2007-01-12, 08:46

What Suzaku is doing has no effect at all. Do you really think that he will change the emperor hoe banished his own son. Do you really think he can change Lyod hoe thinks him as a part, do you think he can change Cornelia or Scheizel hoe properly killed Lelouch mother.

Has no effect? What Suzaku's doing takes time and as such, the effects will take time to occur. Even if he may not change the emperor, he can change those who will take over the throne once the Emperor disappears. If he proves himself as an outstanding citizen of the Empire, rather than just being just another Number, to Cornelia as he is doing to Euphemia, and even to the Scheizel guy, he CAN change the empire.

But the Emperor can also be changed with a remote possibility. Why? Because that emperor believes in the "survival of the fittest" philosophy. If Suzaku shows that Numbers can serve Britannians as equals, then wouldn't that make weaken the discrimination towards Numbers?

He is creating more blooshed only because he is protecting those hoe are evil and corrupt. Lelouch is fighting those people hoe are evil, by taking those people out and taking terrorist out the elevens and the Britannianens will all believe in him and his ways.

Evil and corrupt? Everyone's enemies are evil and corrupt. Please do not just throw such words without even proper thought. Then, isn't Lelouch or any of the other terrorists considered evil by their brethren who wants to live in peace but can't have any because they are being discriminated. And that this further discrimination is coming from the distrust CAUSED by Lelouch's actions.

Also look at the results, do you think that Cornellia or anybody else will try to masacer civilians in oder to achieve his'her goal, the answer is NO because they know it will fail because Zero will show up. Those are results and the only result Suzaku has achieved is that he has to beg for a chance to go out and fight.

What? Didn't Lelouch just get people innocent civilians killed with that landslide operation of his? Do not make Lelouch look like a superhero that doesn't get anyone uninvolved killed, because he will do so for his ambitions.

As I've said before, Suzaku's path takes time, but he CAN have the ability to change the empire from within, especially with his recent appointment in episode 13 showing that he IS climbing the ranks. When he's climbed enough, he'll be able to help Numbers without the need of a gun anymore.

Just because Lelouch is producing results now doesn't mean it will do his people any better in the long run. Besides, he isn't even doing it for the Elevens. He's doing it for his sister and for his vengeance against the man known as the Britannian emperor.

Owaranai Destiny

2007-01-12, 09:22

Has no effect? What Suzaku's doing takes time and as such, the effects will take time to occur. Even if he may not change the emperor, he can change those who will take over the throne once the Emperor disappears. If he proves himself as an outstanding citizen of the Empire, rather than just being just another Number, to Cornelia as he is doing to Euphemia, and even to the Scheizel guy, he CAN change the empire.

Precisely why atilim and a hell lot more people think there's no effect-Because it's not significant at all at this point, and precisely why I think he's going to need a successor at the rate he is going.

Even if he proves to be an outstanding honorary Britannian, it doesn't change the fact that he is STILL an Eleven by origin. What Suzaku doing is commendable and correct, but if he wishes to change things the way he want them to be, he needs to be able to gain the utmost trust of high-ranking Britannians or even the royalty, which means he might actually need to 'live, breath and think' like a Britannian, with some things the Britannian government or army doing not fit for his set of morals. The problem is whether he can actually gain a mindset akin to Zero's and set about following orders if it's, in the end, 'for the greater good.'

But the Emperor can also be changed with a remote possibility. Why? Because that emperor believes in the "survival of the fittest" philosophy. If Suzaku shows that Numbers can serve Britannians as equals, then wouldn't that make weaken the discrimination towards Numbers?

You don't serve to become equal. You show strength and resolve that demands respect.

Aside from that, I have my suspicions on the Emperor's philosophy applying to the conquered people of Britannia. Note how they treated the Elevens. If such treatment is seen as a norm, I believe it would be similar to all the areas taken over by the Empire.

Evil and corrupt? Everyone's enemies are evil and corrupt. Please do not just throw such words without even proper thought. Then, isn't Lelouch or any of the other terrorists considered evil by their brethren who wants to live in peace but can't have any because they are being discriminated. And that this further discrimination is coming from the distrust CAUSED by Lelouch's actions.

"Corrupt" is too strong a word, no doubt. However, you need to take a look at things before the birth of Zero. What did the Britannians do? Start spraying bullets all over the civilians of Shinjuku on suspect of terrorism, sparing neither the old nor the young. The seed of distrust had long been planted in the mindsets of Britannians, so it isn't necessarily caused by Lelouch's actions. In fact, the actions of Lelouch as Zero have given a ray of hope to the Elevens, regardless of his real objectives. At least they know there is someone out there who is able to defeat the supposedly invincible Britannians.

Take for example the 1905 Sino-Japanese war, where Japan was supposedly decided to be of an inferior race as compared to the colonising European countries. Yet, their victory against Russia showed that the supposedly superior 'white' race are as mortal as the Asian people are. Tells people just exactly how much they could do for their own independence eventually.

What? Didn't Lelouch just get people innocent civilians killed with that landslide operation of his? Do not make Lelouch look like a superhero that doesn't get anyone uninvolved killed, because he will do so for his ambitions.

As I've said before, Suzaku's path takes time, but he CAN have the ability to change the empire from within, especially with his recent appointment in episode 13 showing that he IS climbing the ranks. When he's climbed enough, he'll be able to help Numbers without the need of a gun anymore.

The difference between Lelouch and Suzaku is that Lelouch bloody well knows lives will be lost, innocent or not (another painful reminder coming in the form of Shirley's father), while Suzaku sprouts idealism left and right while working as a soldier and killing under Britannia. It's what makes the latter more uncredible as a soldier. If the only way to change is to fight, so be it. Just stop pouring out idealistic nonsense and do your thing. Suzaku can always do the former WHEN he has a better position...IF he does get there.

Just because Lelouch is producing results now doesn't mean it will do his people any better in the long run. Besides, he isn't even doing it for the Elevens. He's doing it for his sister and for his vengeance against the man known as the Britannian emperor.

Call the liberation of Area 11 a 'side quest', eh? The thing is, fighting for the Elevens is in fact required. Where better to show off your strength than a place where you have been exiled to against the seemingly impervious Brittanian rule, and where better to start?

Trax

2007-01-12, 09:27

Actually, what Suzaku is doing takes time. It takes patience and a clear, logical mind. And a lot of self-sacrifice.

What Lelouch is achieving is getting more Britannians to distrust the Elevens more, leading to more discrimination against them.

Suzaku, by changing the minds of the princesses and those in the military higher-ups, CAN create a great reform throughout the empire that could even stop the Britannian dog of war from moving. It is by gaining the trust of the Britannians that Elevens, and Numbers as a whole, can be trusted and be believed in as equal citizens of the Empire.

IF Suzaku succeeds with what he is doing, by proving himself as competent as any other Britannian out there, THAT could change and help everyone without any more bloodshed the way that Lelouche is doing.

Not everything can be solved by the barrel of a gun. Discrimination is more thoroughly eradicated by proper education and through the spread of trust, rather than shooting someone, who's loved one at home will, in turn, just become more discriminating and prejudiced than they were in the beginning.

It seems to me Suzaku hasn't actually put any real thought into what he's trying to achieve. And if it takes a clear, logical mind he will never succeed anyway since he doesn't seem to have one. From what I've seem so far his mind is troubled and warped. As for self-sacrifice, all he's doing so far is being the Brittanian's lapdog, without actively trying to change anything. In my eyes, he's just a hypocrite applying false logic to his situation and in his judgement of others.

For the time being, Suzaku is trying to achieve something that most Elevens probably don't even care about. They are already treated like dirt, so they aren't interested in gaining the trust of the Brittanians. Sure, most will try to avoid conflict out of selfpreservation, but that doesn't mean they're happy to be or strive to be loyal Britannian citizens.

He can't change the empire either, unless the emperor dies and someone less strict takes his place that he is on good footing with and could have some influence on. All likely candidates would still be pretty strict though, so even then the effect might be insignificant. And if by some turn of events it would turn out to be Euphemia, his influence wasn't needed in the first place since she's the gentle type to begin with.

You seem pretty focussed on the discrimination bit, but you don't seem to realize that that discrimination is not what anyone is really concerned about. At this point and time, the Japanese just feel like prisoners in their own country and long for the freedom they enjoyed before the invasion. They don't care about Suzaku's goal, which would only benefit them once they become accustomed to their fate as a Britannian colony.

What? Didn't Lelouch just get people innocent civilians killed with that landslide operation of his? Do not make Lelouch look like a superhero that doesn't get anyone uninvolved killed, because he will do so for his ambitions.

You make it sound like he planned to get those civilians involved. He didn't. Unlike the Britannian rulers, who knowingly massacred innocents.

Nanaya

2007-01-12, 09:48

Precisely why atilim and a hell lot more people think there's no effect-Because it's not significant at all at this point, and precisely why I think he's going to need a successor at the rate he is going.

The rate of his climb and his rise in stature to the royalty can get him faster to his goal than Zero is getting him now. If he can just keep his pace up, he can completely beat Zero in who gets to achieve their goals. Just because a person cannot see results now does not mean that a goal is not being reached. That is only shortsightedness.

Even if he proves to be an outstanding honorary Britannian, it doesn't change the fact that he is STILL an Eleven by origin. What Suzaku doing is commendable and correct, but if he wishes to change things the way he want them to be, he needs to be able to gain the utmost trust of high-ranking Britannians or even the royalty, which means he might actually need to 'live, breath and think' like a Britannian, with some things the Britannian government or army doing not fit for his set of morals. The problem is whether he can actually gain a mindset akin to Zero's and set about following orders if it's, in the end, 'for the greater good.'

Isn't he already gaining the trust of Britannian royalty just BY serving in the military right now? If he keeps the rate up, he CAN change the empire. You just have to look at what's happening and not suddenly say that he's not going anywhere when in fact, the last episode (13) got him working with Cornelia's guards in an operation where he would never have been in if it hadn't been for his past efforts.

You don't serve to become equal. You show strength and resolve that demands respect.

The only way that Suzaku CAN even show his strength and resolve is through SERVING those who are higher than him. Trust is earned that way, real life or not, and respect follows.

Aside from that, I have my suspicions on the Emperor's philosophy applying to the conquered people of Britannia. Note how they treated the Elevens. If such treatment is seen as a norm, I believe it would be similar to all the areas taken over by the Empire.

If the Emperor TRULY believes in the "survival of the fittest" philosophy that he's been spouting, then he can change as well if Suzaku achieves his goals.

"Corrupt" is too strong a word, no doubt. However, you need to take a look at things before the birth of Zero. What did the Britannians do? Start spraying bullets all over the civilians of Shinjuku on suspect of terrorism, sparing neither the old nor the young. The seed of distrust had long been planted in the mindsets of Britannians, so it isn't necessarily caused by Lelouch's actions. In fact, the actions of Lelouch as Zero have given a ray of hope to the Elevens, regardless of his real objectives. At least they know there is someone out there who is able to defeat the supposedly invincible Britannians.

Seeds of distrust? Britannians are brutally honest, if you ask me. Those who are not with them, are against them. That simple. The ones who have distrust are Britannians, rather than the Elevens.

It is because Britannians distrust Elevens due to the current debacles that occur in Japan that Britannians increase their discrimination of Elevens. If the Britannians could trust the Elevens (which is what Suzaku is trying to do), then discrimination would decrease, and the causes of the hardships suffered now will disappear in the long run. It is just that Zero's actions will make Britannians distrust the Elevens even more. THAT is something that Suzaku is working against.

Take for example the 1905 Sino-Japanese war, where Japan was supposedly decided to be of an inferior race as compared to the colonising European countries. Yet, their victory against Russia showed that the supposedly superior 'white' race are as mortal as the Asian people are. Tells people just exactly how much they could do for their own independence eventually.

Independence = Equality? Independence = Power? An independent Japan was crushed by Britannia. There wasn't any equality there. Even in the real world, independence doesn't mean anything unless you've got the resources and power to back it up.

The difference between Lelouch and Suzaku is that Lelouch bloody well knows lives will be lost, innocent or not (another painful reminder coming in the form of Shirley's father), while Suzaku sprouts idealism left and right while working as a soldier and killing under Britannia. It's what makes the latter more uncredible as a soldier. If the only way to change is to fight, so be it. Just stop pouring out idealistic nonsense and do your thing. Suzaku can always do the former WHEN he has a better position...IF he does get there.

You seem to misunderstand Suzaku. What he doesn't want is needless civilian or even military death. BUT, he'd kill anyone who stands in the way of achieving more recognition for his fellow Elevens.

Remember those JLF guys? Blown to pieces. He'd probably have killed Zero in Narita if it wasn't for him owing his life to Zero.

Even if he is idealistic, he also accepts the fact that if there will ever be peace in Japan, he will have to win and destroy the other side completely.

Call the liberation of Area 11 a 'side quest', eh? The thing is, fighting for the Elevens is in fact required. Where better to show off your strength than a place where you have been exiled to against the seemingly impervious Brittanian rule, and where better to start?

I'm not calling the liberation of Area 11 a side quest. To Lelouch, the people of Area 11 are stepping stones in his way to exact vengeance against his hated father while building a new world for his sister (while completely neglecting that other people have sisters, too.).

Understand that when he lost to Cornelia in their first battle, he decided that he needed an army to defeat Britannia as his Geas wasn't enough for the job. He never even thought about the liberation of Area 11 until he needed troops for his grand plan to "turn the world upside down".

Nanaya

2007-01-12, 10:20

This one is a reply for Trax. My reply for Owaranai Destiny is the previous post. It would seem confusing to stick both together and bothersome for the repliers so forgive me this one time.

It seems to me Suzaku hasn't actually put any real thought into what he's trying to achieve. And if it takes a clear, logical mind he will never succeed anyway since he doesn't seem to have one. From what I've seem so far his mind is troubled and warped. As for self-sacrifice, all he's doing so far is being the Brittanian's lapdog, without actively trying to change anything. In my eyes, he's just a hypocrite applying false logic to his situation and in his judgement of others.

Suzaku's methods take time, which is why a lot of people can't see where he's going. If you can't see his goal of wanting Elevens to gain acceptance as equal partners in the Empire with this self-sacrifice, then you will never understand what Suzaku's fighting for.

People may call Suzaku a traitor, but the truth is Japan is now Area 11, a Britannian Colony, for almost a decade (7 years). What he wants to do is to change the empire from within by gaining acceptance from the higher ups for his achievements. If he succeeds, then won't the people praise him as well?[/quote]

For the time being, Suzaku is trying to achieve something that most Elevens probably don't even care about. They are already treated like dirt, so they aren't interested in gaining the trust of the Brittanians. Sure, most will try to avoid conflict out of selfpreservation, but that doesn't mean they're happy to be or strive to be loyal Britannian citizens.

And that is why people clearly hate Suzaku. That is HIS sacrifice. However, if and when Britannians learn to trust Elevens, then won't their treatment improve? You are right when you say that the people may not be happy now, but what does that mean that they will also be happy killing Britannians as well?

Remember that not all Britannians are killing machines and some Britannians vouch for the Elevens like in the meeting with Cornelia about Area 11's zaibatsus being needed for the economy to move forward.

He can't change the empire either, unless the emperor dies and someone less strict takes his place that he is on good footing with and could have some influence on. All likely candidates would still be pretty strict though, so even then the effect might be insignificant. And if by some turn of events it would turn out to be Euphemia, his influence wasn't needed in the first place since she's the gentle type to begin with.

You just CAN'T say CAN'T.

It is this narrow thinking (no one and nothing will change) that makes Suzaku look like a stupid fool. Suzaku is pinning his hopes on a better government where Elevens can take a part in serving equally. It is idealistic, but with the way he is going, he can possibly cause a change that makes Lelouche's goals not even worth doing anymore.

You seem pretty focussed on the discrimination bit, but you don't seem to realize that that discrimination is not what anyone is really concerned about. At this point and time, the Japanese just feel like prisoners in their own country and long for the freedom they enjoyed before the invasion. They don't care about Suzaku's goal, which would only benefit them once they become accustomed to their fate as a Britannian colony.

And from what can be obtained from the previous episodes, normal people don't like the terrorism and fighting going on. If the discrimination disappears, then people won't have anything to grumble about anymore, right? They'll then feel that the Empire is their own, rather than just being a colony.

People in this forum may not be concerned about the discrimination bit, but to the Elevens, it is this discrimination that makes them feel like prisoners in their own country. Eliminate the discrimination and the Elevens won't feel like prisoners anymore. But this discrimination is still caused by the distrust that Lelouch is bringing to the Elevens with his belligerent actions.

Lelouch and Suzaku are complete antithesis of each other. One is belligerency while one is cooperation. Both sides of the coin can change the empire, but the difference in the two is that one side sacrifices lives, the other sacrifices freedoms.

Lelouch's goals are to kill his father and to destroy an empire. Suzaku's goals are to get his people integrated in the empire as accepted citizens.

Clearly outlined for viewing.

You make it sound like he planned to get those civilians involved. He didn't. Unlike the Britannian rulers, who knowingly massacred innocents.

The Britannians consider those who aid and allow the spread of insurgent groups as accomplices. By that standard, they are no longer "innocent". It's tough and sounds cruel but militarily, that is the most efficient way of defeating insurgencies.

I may not like what the Americans did to my ancestors during the Philippine-American War, but if I were to look at it from a logical point of view, it was the best way to defeat and the Filipino guerrilas while lowering American casualties.

Same with the Britannians.

However, you do understand that the path Lelouche is walking on is the path of a demon. Whether he planned to get those people killed or not, he already knows that many people will die with what he is doing like pawns on his beloved chessboard. He is willing to sacrifice them for his goals. If you blind yourself with Lelouche's short term progress of dealing with the "evil" as many people term it here, then you will not be able to see what Lelouche is doing is just for his own sake.

atilim

2007-01-12, 10:23

Also Suzaku doesn't even know how to achive his goal, so he walks without a clue for what to do.
SO how will he surpass Lelouche?

Owaranai Destiny

2007-01-12, 10:24

The rate of his climb and his rise in stature to the royalty can get him faster to his goal than Zero is getting him now. If he can just keep his pace up, he can completely beat Zero in who gets to achieve their goals. Just because a person cannot see results now does not mean that a goal is not being reached. That is only shortsightedness.

It will get him to better standing in the military, but in politics, it isn't just that simple as "leveling up" by garnering as much trust as you can from the Britannians. Besides, we don't really know exactly how much the Emperor relies on the people serving him to dish out policies or rules to his indigenous people or the 'Britannianically' oppressed. The only sure-fire thing that can ensure him absolute success is having a member of the royalty who trusts him THAT much ascending to the throne. Who knows? Maybe Schneizel or Cornelia can actually trust an Eleven enough to let him onto the political stage. Until then, his long term goals are still as distant a dream as Lelouch's goals, if not more.

Isn't he already gaining the trust of Britannian royalty just BY serving in the military right now? If he keeps the rate up, he CAN change the empire. You just have to look at what's happening and not suddenly say that he's not going anywhere when in fact, the last episode (13) got him working with Cornelia's guards in an operation where he would never have been in if it hadn't been for his past efforts.

It's the trust of his skill. Yes, it's an improvement (a convenient one, I might say) as was his rescue of Cornelia again, which almost reeked of 'plot device' to me. If it wasn't for his chance meeting with Euphemia (yet another supposed plot device to some people), I would most definitely say Suzaku is getting nowhere.

The only way that Suzaku CAN even show his strength and resolve is through SERVING those who are higher than him. Trust is earned that way, real life or not, and respect follows.

Granted, as long as his rise can actually take him higher than most Britannian officials.

If the Emperor TRULY believes in the "survival of the fittest" philosophy that he's been spouting, then he can change as well if Suzaku achieves his goals.

How do you know he will change? The ESPer ability is banned, you know. :heh:

Seeds of distrust? Britannians are brutally honest, if you ask me. Those who are not with them, are against them. That simple. The ones who have distrust are Britannians, rather than the Elevens.

It's a vicious cycle, if you ask me. The conquerors will always have a natural feeling of distrust about the oppressed for insurgents, but that doesn't give them the right to start killing everyone in plain sight on suspicion. Because of that (and mainly because of the invasion), The Elevens in turn hate them. What people proud of their own country wouldn't? After all, conquerors are usually seen as bloodthirsty, unreasonable people, and more the more so with their slaughtering of Elevens shown. This would most probably bring out an instinctive feeling of wanting to fight back, or at least show unhappiness about the rule. Oppressed people tend to look at a half-empty glass rather than it being half-full.

It is because Britannians distrust Elevens due to the current debacles that occur in Japan that Britannians increase their discrimination of Elevens. If the Britannians could trust the Elevens (which is what Suzaku is trying to do), then discrimination would decrease, and the causes of the hardships suffered now will disappear in the long run. It is just that Zero's actions will make Britannians distrust the Elevens even more. THAT is something that Suzaku is working against.

I'm sorry, but unless they show otherwise, I can only see discrimination on the part of Britannians.

Independence = Equality? Independence = Power? An independent Japan was crushed by Britannia. There wasn't any equality there. Even in the real world, independence doesn't mean anything unless you've got the resources and power to back it up.

Meh. So basically you are agreeing with what Britannia does. :heh:

Besides, your reply doesn't make any sense to what I just said. I was referring to a possible example set by Zero, and here you are talking about the disadvantages of independence without power.

[Off-topic]:If you want another example, I can give you the best I recall: Singapore. What were they in 1965, after separating from Malaysia? A small country, with little protection, little resources save it's people, and definitely not a whole lot of power. Where are they now?

You seem to misunderstand Suzaku. What he doesn't want is needless civilian or even military death. BUT, he'd kill anyone who stands in the way of achieving more recognition for his fellow Elevens.

Even if a scenario like the Shinjuku one arises, will he be willing to do something like that: Killing all suspected of being terrorists or harbouring them? If he hadn't been shown to be more idealistic, I would have said that killing fellow Elevens for the future of Japan is a 'lesser evil done in the name of greater good', something which seems to imply the purpose of most of the Black Knights except their leader. :heh:

Even if he is idealistic, he also accepts the fact that if there will ever be peace in Japan, he will have to win and destroy the other side completely.

What other side? All Elevens who oppose Brittanian rule?

If that's the case, it's going to take him ages. Pride isn't so brittle as to disappear overnight just because of setbacks. There will always be resistance as long as Japan remains Area Eleven, and endless resistance might mean having to put Suzaku on the front line all the time if he is that trusted to put out insurgency.

I'm not calling the liberation of Area 11 a side quest. To Lelouch, the people of Area 11 are stepping stones in his way to exact vengeance against his hated father while building a new world for his sister (while completely neglecting that other people have sisters, too.).

Understand that when he lost to Cornelia in their first battle, he decided that he needed an army to defeat Britannia as his Geas wasn't enough for the job. He never even thought about the liberation of Area 11 until he needed troops for his grand plan to "turn the world upside down".

Stepping stones, indeed. If he can get majority of the population to support him when he grants them independence, why not? Of course, this is also in a not-too-distant future as well, so such long term factors cannot be definitive.
Besides, if liberation is what the Elevens want, it will most definitely be a secondary objective to Zero as a first step to the destruction of Britannia.

JayF

2007-01-12, 10:25

Suzaku can realistically change Britannia from within, if he is able to fufill the underlying conditions.

1) Have Princess Euphemia trust him implicitly, to the point where she would do or approve of things that are necessary for her victory in the royal struggle.

2) Kill off EVERY last one of the other royals in a position to claim the throne, and while at it annhiliate every other branch of the royal family while at the same time wiping out potential challengers from nobles and military factions.

3)Make people forget he ever was Number, (See Stalin) then dilute the Britannian first mentality by building upon a new dominant group.( Again see Soviet Russia for hints)

4)Have Euphie bumped off too when she shows visible signs of being independant, and placing people in all power centres who are pro Suzaku and Eleven, in descending order of importance.

When Suzaku is finished, you'd find that maybe Zero's methods required lesser deaths and achieved things faster. You know, the making the military and economic costs too painful for even an autocratic empire to logically maintain without costing them dearly in the battles and struggles that are existenal in nature? Remember Germania and Rome? When the Goths slaughtered eleven legions in the forests of Southern Germany, the Romans never dared to head back there again until it's collaspe.

Blue_Mercy

2007-01-12, 10:29

Has no effect? What Suzaku's doing takes time and as such, the effects will take time to occur. Even if he may not change the emperor, he can change those who will take over the throne once the Emperor disappears. If he proves himself as an outstanding citizen of the Empire, rather than just being just another Number, to Cornelia as he is doing to Euphemia, and even to the Scheizel guy, he CAN change the empire.

To start with it's good to see that there is somebody out there taking a stand to defend Suzaku, it would be a boring discussion if everyone was supporting the rebellion.

With that said, sorry Nanaya except for a few other people you are going to find yourself very much alone in this argument.

Euphemia was becoming a fan of Suzaku before she knew his piloting skills. Also, I'm afraid that what you want to happen might actually happen. I've said it before that if Suzaku managed to change Britannia from within, the show would simply be ,as others have put it a typical "anime cliche" type ending.

But the Emperor can also be changed with a remote possibility. Why? Because that emperor believes in the "survival of the fittest" philosophy. If Suzaku shows that Numbers can serve Britannians as equals, then wouldn't that make weaken the discrimination towards Numbers?

If you defend the emperor's Darwinist theory, you are abandoning Nanaly and I'll gladly take any position opposite that. I said it earlier that even if Suzaku manages to win every battle he fights in, I would rate his chance of success at next to nothing.

Evil and corrupt? Everyone's enemies are evil and corrupt. Please do not just throw such words without even proper thought. Then, isn't Lelouch or any of the other terrorists considered evil by their brethren who wants to live in peace but can't have any because they are being discriminated. And that this further discrimination is coming from the distrust CAUSED by Lelouch's actions.

This was stated in the episode 8.5 "in the ghettos occupied by the Japanese the OoBK is considered heroes. In the settlements occupied by the Britannians they are considered villains."

The Japanese were going to get discriminated against whether their was a resistance or not. Britannia is a country that considers the people it takes over as lower than human. The places they take over aren't even left with their original country name.

What? Didn't Lelouch just get people innocent civilians killed with that landslide operation of his? Do not make Lelouch look like a superhero that doesn't get anyone uninvolved killed, because he will do so for his ambitions.

Yes, and if Lelouch really plans on fighting a war with all of Britannia, you can bet more civilians will probably get killed in the future. I'm not gonna make Lelouch out to be a superhero, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna classify him as a villain either. His ambitions is a destruction of a tyrannical empire, and a peaceful world for his sister. If that's evil ambitions then I'll gladly call myself evil too.

As I've said before, Suzaku's path takes time, but he CAN have the ability to change the empire from within, especially with his recent appointment in episode 13 showing that he IS climbing the ranks. When he's climbed enough, he'll be able to help Numbers without the need of a gun anymore.

Before that takes place, IF that takes place at all it won't change anything.

Just because Lelouch is producing results now doesn't mean it will do his people any better in the long run. Besides, he isn't even doing it for the Elevens. He's doing it for his sister and for his vengeance against the man known as the Britannian emperor.

We are barely thirteen episodes in, and so far Lelouch's has created an army, won battles when ridiculously outnumbered, gained support from other resistance groups in the country, and still managed to keep the cover of a student. Give the guy his credit where its due. When you are fighting the same enemy, do your goals need to be the same? Whether you hate Britannia for personal revenge, or for freedom for your country, the hate for Britannia still is there.

Nanaya

2007-01-12, 11:31

Also Suzaku doesn't even know how to achive his goal, so he walks without a clue for what to do.
SO how will he surpass Lelouche?

It's not a matter of surpassing Lelouche. The two aren't going on a "I'm bigger than yours" contest.

If you can't even see that Suzaku is trying to achieve his goal by being an outstanding Honorary Britannian that the royalty will respect and listen to, then you are the one who has no clue as to what Suzaku is trying to do.

It will get him to better standing in the military, but in politics, it isn't just that simple as "leveling up" by garnering as much trust as you can from the Britannians. Besides, we don't really know exactly how much the Emperor relies on the people serving him to dish out policies or rules to his indigenous people or the 'Britannianically' oppressed. The only sure-fire thing that can ensure him absolute success is having a member of the royalty who trusts him THAT much ascending to the throne. Who knows? Maybe Schneizel or Cornelia can actually trust an Eleven enough to let him onto the political stage. Until then, his long term goals are still as distant a dream as Lelouch's goals, if not more.

As we can already see, current Britannian politics is driven from colonization and warfare. As long as Suzaku can gain attention and trust as an outstanding Number that other Britannians can look to as an equal then change can occur.

It's the trust of his skill. Yes, it's an improvement (a convenient one, I might say) as was his rescue of Cornelia again, which almost reeked of 'plot device' to me. If it wasn't for his chance meeting with Euphemia (yet another supposed plot device to some people), I would most definitely say Suzaku is getting nowhere.

Plot device, or no, isn't it the same as Lelouche getting the Geas in the first place? Something we can just call as their destinies. Had Lelouche not gotten the Geas, his ideas would be moving FAR slower than Suzaku's, ne?

Granted, as long as his rise can actually take him higher than most Britannian officials.

And his rise is directly connected to royalty looking at him favorably. Wouldn't that be higher than most Britannian officials?

How do you know he will change? The ESPer ability is banned, you know. :heh:

It is only logical. If the Emperor TRULY (I said TRULY) believed in said philosophy, even he will bow down to it. That simple. You don't even have to be an ESPer.

It's a vicious cycle, if you ask me. The conquerors will always have a natural feeling of distrust about the oppressed for insurgents, but that doesn't give them the right to start killing everyone in plain sight on suspicion. Because of that (and mainly because of the invasion), The Elevens in turn hate them. What people proud of their own country wouldn't? After all, conquerors are usually seen as bloodthirsty, unreasonable people, and more the more so with their slaughtering of Elevens shown. This would most probably bring out an instinctive feeling of wanting to fight back, or at least show unhappiness about the rule. Oppressed people tend to look at a half-empty glass rather than it being half-full.

As I posted countless times before, it is this cycle of distrust that Suzaku wants to break. It doesn't matter how many lives have been lost. If Suzaku breaks this cycle, then it ends there.

I'm sorry, but unless they show otherwise, I can only see discrimination on the part of Britannians.

Euphemia. The Student Council. They are Britannians.

It just goes to show that acceptance comes. Not suddenly, but it does.

Meh. So basically you are agreeing with what Britannia does. :heh

Besides, your reply doesn't make any sense to what I just said. I was referring to a possible example set by Zero, and here you are talking about the disadvantages of independence without power.

Hmm? A misunderstanding? You mean how Zero has the ability to defeat the Imperial armies? Well, people may be happy with that. That the Elevens can fight on equal terms with the Empire? Sorry, your Russo-Jap thing messed me up. But is independence really all that great?

[Off-topic]:If you want another example, I can give you the best I recall: Singapore. What were they in 1965, after separating from Malaysia? A small country, with little protection, little resources save it's people, and definitely not a whole lot of power. Where are they now?

A nation at the mercy of its alliances. Wouldn't be surprised if China suddenly got an imperialistic urge and swallowed it whole.

Even if a scenario like the Shinjuku one arises, will he be willing to do something like that: Killing all suspected of being terrorists or harbouring them? If he hadn't been shown to be more idealistic, I would have said that killing fellow Elevens for the future of Japan is a 'lesser evil done in the name of greater good', something which seems to imply the purpose of most of the Black Knights except their leader. :heh:

Huh? Lulu's purpose also commits acts of evil in the name of HIS greater good. Do you think those JLF soldiers he sacrificed, his own men, and his Imperial enemies didn't have people waiting for them at home. Please. Everyone that has died in this entire series has been due to the idealism of all the people in the show. Don't tell me that Lelouche himself isn't idealistic because he is.

Both Suzaku and Lelouche are idealistic individuals. They are just on opposite sides of the coin.

What other side? All Elevens who oppose Brittanian rule?
Those who spread chaos by continuing the fight against Britannia. Suzaku certainly doesn't consider those who don't take up arms as enemies. That should already be clear to everyone by now.

If that's the case, it's going to take him ages. Pride isn't so brittle as to disappear overnight just because of setbacks. There will always be resistance as long as Japan remains Area Eleven, and endless resistance might mean having to put Suzaku on the front line all the time if he is that trusted to put out insurgency.

No, not all resistance are endless. And pride isn't brittle, but it can be crushed. If the people of Area 11 can be made to lose hope in any resistance efforts by showing that the Empire will not falter, then the resistance's support will also disappear.

Stepping stones, indeed. If he can get majority of the population to support him when he grants them independence, why not? Of course, this is also in a not-too-distant future as well, so such long term factors cannot be definitive.
Besides, if liberation is what the Elevens want, it will most definitely be a secondary objective to Zero as a first step to the destruction of Britannia.

Well, I can't disagree with this since you agreed with me...

Nanaya

2007-01-12, 12:04

Sorry for the double posts, but I'm only human. It's like one man against the machine here.

Suzaku can realistically change Britannia from within, if he is able to fufill the underlying conditions.

1) Have Princess Euphemia trust him implicitly, to the point where she would do or approve of things that are necessary for her victory in the royal struggle.

2) Kill off EVERY last one of the other royals in a position to claim the throne, and while at it annhiliate every other branch of the royal family while at the same time wiping out potential challengers from nobles and military factions.

3)Make people forget he ever was Number, (See Stalin) then dilute the Britannian first mentality by building upon a new dominant group.( Again see Soviet Russia for hints)

4)Have Euphie bumped off too when she shows visible signs of being independant, and placing people in all power centres who are pro Suzaku and Eleven, in descending order of importance.

When Suzaku is finished, you'd find that maybe Zero's methods required lesser deaths and achieved things faster. You know, the making the military and economic costs too painful for even an autocratic empire to logically maintain without costing them dearly in the battles and struggles that are existenal in nature? Remember Germania and Rome? When the Goths slaughtered eleven legions in the forests of Southern Germany, the Romans never dared to head back there again until it's collaspe.

While you do provide some good points, some are just unrealistic. To kill off every other royal means that he will be suspected of high treason and his dreams will end there. And Suzaku is trying to make the Britannians accept him as he is, leading to his fellow Numbers being accepted as well.

Also about Germania and Rome: They exist in a world where the Britannian Empire probably has the most powerful military in the world with rapid reaction ability due to ease of transportation. They can nip rapidly massing forces with said capability before those even become a threat. The Romans didn't have that back then. The technological difference is too great. Between that time and this Geass world, and between the Elevens and the Britannians.

And even though the Narita Battle was considered a personal loss by Cornelia, it was a military victory in that the largest forces of the JLF were crushed. We are nowhere near the point where the Imperial Army is under grave threat.

To start with it's good to see that there is somebody out there taking a stand to defend Suzaku, it would be a boring discussion if everyone was supporting the rebellion.

With that said, sorry Nanaya except for a few other people you are going to find yourself very much alone in this argument.

Euphemia was becoming a fan of Suzaku before she knew his piloting skills. Also, I'm afraid that what you want to happen might actually happen. I've said it before that if Suzaku managed to change Britannia from within, the show would simply be ,as others have put it a typical "anime cliche" type ending.

Thanks, but being i've seen more cliched animes (and games) where said evil empire is destroyed by young boy with growing army, instead of young boy amassing support for the Empire to gain acceptance. RIGHT?

If you defend the emperor's Darwinist theory, you are abandoning Nanaly and I'll gladly take any position opposite that. I said it earlier that even if Suzaku manages to win every battle he fights in, I would rate his chance of success at next to nothing.

Nanaly is probably not the only girl like that in the world of Code Geass. But to turn the lives of millions more upside down for the sake of the suffering of one person, that isn't even fair. But I do understand why most people sympathize with Lulu. But he and his sister aren't the only people that suffer in their world. Suzaku winning every battle he gets in will get him where he wants to be: a position of respect and trust. If he is able to use that to change the empire, then his chances for success aren't really next to nothing.

This was stated in the episode 8.5 "in the ghettos occupied by the Japanese the OoBK is considered heroes. In the settlements occupied by the Britannians they are considered villains."

Well, of course. Isn't that how it goes?

The Japanese were going to get discriminated against whether their was a resistance or not. Britannia is a country that considers the people it takes over as lower than human. The places they take over aren't even left with their original country name.

People like Euphemia and those in the student council also exist in Britannia. Please do not completely blanket them all as discriminating people.

And also, I do understand the part where the places name are replaced. This is to tell the people that they are no longer Japanese. They are people of the Empire. That is only normal approach to be taken if the areas are going to be turned into areas that are pacified of their pride and olden ways.

Yes, and if Lelouch really plans on fighting a war with all of Britannia, you can bet more civilians will probably get killed in the future. I'm not gonna make Lelouch out to be a superhero, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna classify him as a villain either. His ambitions is a destruction of a tyrannical empire, and a peaceful world for his sister. If that's evil ambitions then I'll gladly call myself evil too.

And what about the peaceful and moderate people of this "tyrannical" empire and of their sisters and brothers and lovers? These are the people that Suzaku doesn't want to get caught in the battle. Needless casualties for the sake of one person is completely evil in my eyes.

And even if the empire falls, who's to say that the splintering of it won't create an even more chaotic world than what is occurring now?

Before that takes place, IF that takes place at all it won't change anything.

If his climb in power takes place, HOW can that not change anything at all? That was a very blind blind blind comment.

We are barely thirteen episodes in, and so far Lelouch's has created an army, won battles when ridiculously outnumbered, gained support from other resistance groups in the country, and still managed to keep the cover of a student. Give the guy his credit where its due. When you are fighting the same enemy, do your goals need to be the same? Whether you hate Britannia for personal revenge, or for freedom for your country, the hate for Britannia still is there.

The Battle of Narita (a major battle) was militarily won by the Empire, lest you forget. Cornelia only regards it a personal loss because she was bested in battle. The Black Knights retreated while using the JLF as human shields. Human shields who were scattered and destroyed by the Imperial forces. That's no victory for Lelouche. Ever since Cornelia came, I don't think I've even seen Lelouche win a battle.

AT THE SAME BREATH, winning doesn't always make you right. And whether their enemies are the same, that doesn't make Lulu's goals any less selfish than it is compared to Suzaku who sacrifices his pride to make his dreams come true.

atilim

2007-01-12, 13:12

Lelouch won the battle of Narita now mather how you look. De damage to the Oder was little, they lost 3 or 4 Knightmares and thats it. Cornelia lost at least 80% during the operation only to the landslide. SO it is Lelouch victory either way around.

Also the part of "I'm bigger than yours" as you say is important because we are talking about there way of achiving things. Uptil now you talked about Suzaku and his doing things is better on the whol. But the fact is he isn't doing anything.

seraphon

2007-01-12, 13:41

nanaya..... you must really love suzaku no?

I m not trying to judge what you said or what the other said.
But ONE thing is totally undeniable: Suzaku cannot change britannia. Even if all the royal familie dies except yuffie. Why you could ask me....

Because Brittania isnt a democracy , not even a monarchy by the feeling cg gives us, but a dictature ruled by the almigthy king and the noble court. You may say that the conquered area can govern themselves and such but it looks to me that the king can do whatever he wants (by assassination if needed) and the nobles can also have some pression on the king (well not on lulu s father coz hes too strong). But yuffie if she is ever to be queen wouldnt use murder or anything of the sort, and thus couldnt control the empire because other people(the britannian nobles) wouldnt hesitate to murder her for the throne. The power struggle in the higher sphere of the britanian empire is a real lion pit and there is no way that an honorary britanian can change that.

Another thing that you cant deny is that it is quite wrong for suzaku to always speak of justice. I m not saying that zero is more in the justice side than suzaku nor that suzaku is a treator. But Britannia had invaded japan for money and thus killed a lot of people , than parked most of the people in ghettos and calling them by a number like animals or objects. Althougth there is a system of honorary britanians, it must be really hard for the japanese to get it, because you must accept to become a dog to the britanians (the hot dog seller WAS a honorary britanian and to work he must endure some humiliation). We must not forget that it has not been a very long time since britania invaded japan so rigth now britannians are still invaders in most japanese views. It is really hard to try to blend in..... ok suzaku is trying to give an example by trying to get the best of the britanian invasion but it is not easy, not everyone can do it. Try to think for a real life exemple in the place of the irakians. Is it easy to be supportive to the americans who invaded their country? (well of course irak is very extreme).
Well back to topic, I wanted to say that terrorrisms in a country that has been invaded is to be expected, it is totally normal. But the army of occupation that figth the terrorrists hardly have justice with them, and thus suzaku that works for such an army doesnt have justice behind him.

Well I know there migth be holes in my speech, coz it was long and I m too lazy to reread, but I ll gladly develop my point of view to say that it is totally impossible for suzaku to change britannia and that suzaku is a hypocrite if he thinks justice is with him/the britnian army

seraphon

2007-01-12, 13:44

Oh I forgot to say that winning always make you rigth coz its well known that its the victors that make history (and you can even put in place morals that indeed make you the allie of justice).

Plan 36

2007-01-12, 14:00

Hi I'm new here (I've lurked for a while, but just registered today).

I have to say that I hate Suzaku with a passion, for cooperating with the empire that invaded his own country and treat his own people like dog, and for being a hypocrite. I hope that Lelouch or whoever will give him a healthy dose of reality, make him fall like a rock and cry like a little girl (ala Shinn Asuka) eventually. Death is too good for him.

antheonoileo

2007-01-12, 14:26

If you can't even see that Suzaku is trying to achieve his goal by being an outstanding Honorary Britannian that the royalty will respect and listen to, then you are the one who has no clue as to what Suzaku is trying to do.

If you have read all of our posts, you will know we have the arguments for it already:

(1) You are misunderstanding between an "useful tool" and a "respectable human". He can show that he is an "outstanding Honorary Britannian" or whatever, and even if the royalty may "respect" him (not really though, except Euphie, they only feel glad to have such a good dog), he cannot make them listen to him, as:

- Even a prince is nothing, so the words of just a "honor" has no weight. Remember Lulu's mother. She become empress from a commoner, and see what she got. Suzaku is much lower than her in all's view, and will be easily eliminated if they want. Euphie now may also be dead if she raises his idea.

- Showing that one can be "good" doesn't lead to the change of Britanian's mind about all of the Japanese (the empires will only think: ok, this traitor is useful). You know, a good dog is always a dog, and lower than even a bad person.

--> He is only know as the Number pilot of Lancelot. Like the Lancelot, he may climb to an important position, but always they use him, not vice versa (maybe yes if he only want sth for himself, and has a brain, here he has no brain and wants a revolution !!)

(2) As I've said, his "changing from inside" is unrealistic. But more important than that is what he's doing is not less evil than Zero but he is so shameless to be angry with Zero's every move (to him, Zero shouldn't save the hostages, and let them face the risks to die in his show-off). Moreover, he didn't piss of with the army's massacres at all, and still helping them to kill his ppl :frustrated:

Trax

2007-01-12, 15:14

Suzaku's methods take time, which is why a lot of people can't see where he's going. If you can't see his goal of wanting Elevens to gain acceptance as equal partners in the Empire with this self-sacrifice, then you will never understand what Suzaku's fighting for.

As I pointed out before, I just don't think he really has a good idea of what he's trying to achieve and how he wants to achieve it. His basic plan seems to be playing Brittania lapdog so he can minimize casualties with some sort of belief it will change the way Brittania operates. I seriously wonder if even Suzaku himself knows what he's fighting for, or if he's just running away from his past.

People may call Suzaku a traitor, but the truth is Japan is now Area 11, a Britannian Colony, for almost a decade (7 years). What he wants to do is to change the empire from within by gaining acceptance from the higher ups for his achievements. If he succeeds, then won't the people praise him as well?

My guess is he actually is a traitor (hinted by his induced flashbacks, although not confirmed), and because of that he has sought refuge among the Britannians. He may even have gotten his honorary citizenship based on this. Apart from that, he's still a hypocrite by lamenting victims while conveniently ignoring the actions of the very army he is a part of.

And that is why people clearly hate Suzaku. That is HIS sacrifice. However, if and when Britannians learn to trust Elevens, then won't their treatment improve? You are right when you say that the people may not be happy now, but what does that mean that they will also be happy killing Britannians as well?

I never said they would be killing Britannians; I mentioned specifically that most would just endure it out of selfpreservation. Plus I don't think he's sacrificing much really by being among Britannians since I suspect he is reluctant to face Elevens because of his possible past betrayal.

Remember that not all Britannians are killing machines and some Britannians vouch for the Elevens like in the meeting with Cornelia about Area 11's zaibatsus being needed for the economy to move forward.

Not sure what the point of this is, it's obvious there are plenty of non-military Britannians and they are sure to have their share of openminded and nonhostile people. It's obvious they need the natives' cooperation for Area 11 to thrive, but that's just being practical and doesn't necessarily mean they think well of the Elevens. Although I'm surprised we haven't seen any of them question their nation's policy of invading and colonizing other countries, props to their country's propoganda I suppose, which probably is partly responsible for most of the image their people have of the countries they invade, resulting in alot of the discrimination.

You just CAN'T say CAN'T.

It is this narrow thinking (no one and nothing will change) that makes Suzaku look like a stupid fool. Suzaku is pinning his hopes on a better government where Elevens can take a part in serving equally. It is idealistic, but with the way he is going, he can possibly cause a change that makes Lelouche's goals not even worth doing anymore.

Sure I can. What you're suggesting is a long shot at best, with the current emperor still in place. Even if he would become aware of Suzaku's exploits, that's no guarantee he would acknowledge him, let alone be influenced by him. He might even have purist inclinations and have him demoted or kicked out of the Britannian military. If I were to speculate on what's going to happen in CG, I'd say the emperor will die at some point which might allow Suzaku to make a difference.

Oh, and if anything makes Suzaku look like a fool it's his own actions and statements. Actually staying in the army after nearly getting executed unjustly by them, and making hypocritical statements about Zero don't reflect well on himself. Lelouche is no saint, and he does have his own agenda, but at least he doesn't make excuses for himself.

And from what can be obtained from the previous episodes, normal people don't like the terrorism and fighting going on. If the discrimination disappears, then people won't have anything to grumble about anymore, right? They'll then feel that the Empire is their own, rather than just being a colony.

It's unlikely they'll feel that way any time soon, even with less discrimination. You don't suddenly "forget" you're the victim of a hostile invasion. It would make it easier to bear, but that's a kind of grudge that doesn't die out easily. Ofcourse they don't like the unrest caused by the rebellion either, because of the resulting tension and a chance to get caught in the middle.

People in this forum may not be concerned about the discrimination bit, but to the Elevens, it is this discrimination that makes them feel like prisoners in their own country. Eliminate the discrimination and the Elevens won't feel like prisoners anymore. But this discrimination is still caused by the distrust that Lelouch is bringing to the Elevens with his belligerent actions.

It's not caused by Lelouche, it was already there. Ofcourse his actions don't help it either, but that's another matter. And from the support he's getting it seems that they generally symphatize with his actions. I think it's safe to say they feel like prisoners in their own country because it's being occupied by a hostile military force, the discrimination only reinforces that feeling.

Lelouch and Suzaku are complete antithesis of each other. One is belligerency while one is cooperation. Both sides of the coin can change the empire, but the difference in the two is that one side sacrifices lives, the other sacrifices freedoms.

Both sacrifice lives, either directly or indirectly.

Lelouch's goals are to kill his father and to destroy an empire. Suzaku's goals are to get his people integrated in the empire as accepted citizens.

Is that really Suzaku's goal? He hasn't exactly been clear about what he's trying to achieve.

The Britannians consider those who aid and allow the spread of insurgent groups as accomplices. By that standard, they are no longer "innocent". It's tough and sounds cruel but militarily, that is the most efficient way of defeating insurgencies.

That's just a convenient excuse they make for themselves. You can be sure they will realize that plenty of people in the ghettos don't want to get involved with the rebellion for fear of retaliation. From a military pov it might still be the best way to deal with the rebels, but they know for a fact that they're killing a fair share of innocent people in the process.

Santa Claus

2007-01-12, 15:29

Nanaya:

You bring up good points, and it's good to see someone arguing Suzaku's side for a change.

With that said:

Plot device, or no, isn't it the same as Lelouche getting the Geas in the first place? Something we can just call as their destinies. Had Lelouche not gotten the Geas, his ideas would be moving FAR slower than Suzaku's, ne?

Yes, both the Geass ability and Lancelot are plot devices (IMO, obviously.) The difference is in how Lelouche and Suzaku uses them, respectively. Lulu could EASILY have just gotten out of Shinjuku, but he didn't. He chose to stay and fight. He actually used his plot device instead of depending on more, and more, and more. We can argue whether the Guren is a PD as well, too. I'm not going to say he was in the right in everything he's done, because he is obviously a very, very morally grey character.

Now let's consider Suzaku. He joins the military. Great. He wants to change Britannia from the inside. Also great. Respectable goal. Purely idiotic means of getting his message across. Before we get to his means, let's examine his actions thus far:

1) BECAUSE Karen & Co. stole C.C. and Lulu happens to get stuck in the whole ensuing mess, Suzie gets a shiny mech. Because of this, he is in effect bringing a gun to a fist fight everytime he waltzed onto the field.
2) BECAUSE Lulu got the Geass ability and committed fratricide, Suz gets public recognition for a crime he didn't commit. Not really a good thing, but it leads into his other "accomplishments."
3) BECAUSE Lulu CHOSE to save him, he gets cleared of all charges.
4) BECAUSE he gets cleared of all charges, he meets Euphie. A royal princess who just so happens to have a military general for an elder sister.
5) BECAUSE Lulu Oranged Jeremiah, Suzaku was able to act the hero and save the day.
6) BECAUSE Zero was such a thorn in Cornelia's side, Suzaku got to play the dashing hero, again. And again. And again.

Now, of all the things he's supposedly accomplished, how many of those things would he have gotten done if Zero wasn't in the picture? I say, not bloody much. He'd likely have died without anyone knowing his name. Would Britannia have recognized his service? Probably not.

Suzaku sure likes to whine about the meaning of justice and all that merry stuff, but the doing seems quite out of his league. Lloyd even takes him to task on the very matter on at least two separate occasions. Even Lulu's dependence on PDs isn't quite this drastic. He does take matters into his own hands whenever possible.

However, I'll buy the destiny bit. Perhaps Suzaku was fated for these things. Unlikely to happen in the real world, but perfectly fine within the confines of an animated series. But let us now examine his methods. The Numbers system takes away a nation's cultural identity. A conquered country suddenly becomes little more than a number in Britannia's territories: no culture, no identity, no pride. As someone above this post said, Britannia behaves like a military dictatorship, and strength seems to be valued above all else.

Now please tell me how a Number can ever hope to impress his obviously racist superiors (I'm thinking of the Special Ops commander in Episode 1 here.) Even the rank and file seems to have little qualms with killing the elderly, and women and children.

These are your examples of understanding Britannians.

Euphemia. The Student Council. They are Britannians.

It just goes to show that acceptance comes. Not suddenly, but it does.

Let me just point out that all of these people are sheltered. Judging from her air-headed behavior during the Purist fracas, Euphemia was pampered and protected from court intrigues by her extremely powerful older sister. As such, she's an idealist: in her opinion, it'd be great if everyone held hands and sang songs. It's perfectly reasonable that she'd be well disposed towards equality for all. Somehow, I doubt the Darwin-loving members of her family think the same way. And they are the ones who can institute change.

Cornelia isn't the greatest example either: Suzaku saved her life as well as that of her beloved sister. She's biased towards him. How impressed would she have been with Suzaku if he hadn't done those things? Would she have been impressed in his ability to follow orders? No - the woman kills soldiers who can't follow retreat orders, as we've all seen.

And the student council (and here, I'm guessing you're excluding Nina.) Biggest bunch of fops I've ever seen. Likely to be quite well off if they're attending a prestigious academic institution. Most likely just as sheltered as Euphie. How about the other students at Ashford? You know, the ones that were so excited at looking over pictures of the Shinjuku massacre? The only Britannians that truly accept Elevens as equals despite their upbringing, IMO, are Cecil and maybe Diethard. Two people in a sea of racists. In fact, I'll even toss in the entire Ashford Academy as supporters of equality in all Britannia. That's what...a thousand people? Opposed to the entire Purist faction, and the seemingly ingrained idea of Britannian superiority over inferior 'Numbers.' Suddenly the future looks bleak.

The obvious RL historical parallel with Suzaku that I can think of right now would be Flavius(?) Stilicho of Rome. This dude was half Roman, half barbarian, but because of his efforts the Empire was able to survive for a few more years. He had many reasons to take control himself, yet he didn't. He defended the Empire, and acted the good little Roman well. And in the end, all it took to take him down was a couple of jealous aristocrats. And things just went to hell after he died. For both the Foederati (sp?) and for pure Romans.

In the end, I guess all I have to say regarding Suzaku is his original character concept is truly strange. It's like he thinks that by doing his job - something that's expected in the military - he's going to get Britannia to suddenly change its ways. Sorry, I don't buy it. Unless he is as immortal as C.C., I don't see it working in his lifetime. Let's put it this way: if you were Jewish, would you have joined Hitler's armies? How far do you think you would have gotten?

Not to say I don't expect great things from this character: he has the potential for lots of drama, precisely because of his astonishingly hypocritical stance.

Plan 36

2007-01-12, 15:40

Nightengale

2007-01-12, 19:39

The most annoying thing about Suzaku is that everyone in the anime seems to sympathize with his half-assed logic, and doesn't point out the various flaws in his plan (if he has one). The last thing we need is Sunrise turning him into a Kira clone and the show will be complete trash. Ugh!

But turning into a Kira clone literally strips Suzaku of his worst traits so far, that is his hypocricy and all talk/no action deeds.

Not that I'm saying it's a good thing for him to be a Kira clone (( not melancholic and vague enough )), but ideally, the worst things about him are hardly the worst things about Kira.

If anything, he needs to be a Griffith clone..Oh wait, that's Lelouch.

JayF

2007-01-12, 19:58

[QUOTE=Nanaya;797679]Sorry for the double posts, but I'm only human. It's like one man against the machine here.

While you do provide some good points, some are just unrealistic. To kill off every other royal means that he will be suspected of high treason and his dreams will end there. And Suzaku is trying to make the Britannians accept him as he is, leading to his fellow Numbers being accepted as well.

Also about Germania and Rome: They exist in a world where the Britannian Empire probably has the most powerful military in the world with rapid reaction ability due to ease of transportation. They can nip rapidly massing forces with said capability before those even become a threat. The Romans didn't have that back then. The technological difference is too great. Between that time and this Geass world, and between the Elevens and the Britannians.

And even though the Narita Battle was considered a personal loss by Cornelia, it was a military victory in that the largest forces of the JLF were crushed. We are nowhere near the point where the Imperial Army is under grave threat.

Except the Battle of Narita would be a victory only it it was a war of conquest, which it isn't. Narita was already under Britannian occupation officialy. This is an insurgency despite the pitched battles and in insurgencies the occupying power has to win conviciningly, and having 80% armour losses , approximately 80 Knightmares of the 100 assault team of the vanguard, loss of one division in one enemy trap (not counting civilian and troop casulties), the CO AND colonial administrator under real threat of capture isn't going to be counted as a win in almost all military situations, especially an insurgency.

Throw in the breaking of formation during the retreat to rescue Cornelia and the fact that the insurgency leader again evaded capture and you have a full blown disaster on your hands. Even in a war of conquest this would be a pyrhrric victory at best, in an insurgency this is a disaster.

Sure, the JLF saw the routing of their main base and main army but it was to be expected when an insurgent group comes under heavy assault by the occupying force. For the occupying forces, victory should have been at minimal cost which it was going to be until Zero decided to give them a mud bath and send Kallen ripping up Britannian units.

It was a disaster for the JLF but the Brits paid dearly for the "victory" in which a reble group already nearing it's limit was used very effectively as cannon fodder by the new, real threat which is the Order of the Black Knights to inflict horrendous casualties, come within inches of capturing the colonial admin thus shattering morale among the occupying forces and proving to the Japanese the Brits can be defeated in battle which they were, the resumed occupation of Narita, which shouldn't have been allowed to become JLF influenced anyway.

It was an Order victory and Lulu never cared much for the JLF much anyway (to be honest, neither much of Japan). How many more Naritas can Britaninnia take before it becomes a Ligny (French victory) prelude to Waterloo (Sure you heard of that by now.)

As for bumping off the other royals, Suzaku will obviously have to be in a position where either Euphie or Cornelia is will be supporting him when he through either of them presses the treason charges first. If anyone is able to presses treason against him still, then obviously he hasn't come far enough to be able to enact real change either through Euphie or Corneila who both must die, sooner or later. Especially Cornelia.

Lastly, how can Suzaku ever make Britannians and Numbers equal when the national identity of the Empire is built on difference. For that to happen, the Brit/ Number difference will have to disappear and with it, the Empire. All Numbered areas and the homeland will have to come under ONE nation, without distinction between the areas and ALL considered Britannians. How is that going to happen? The Empire as it is will have to go along with it's old power structure and institutions. Will it cost chaos, probably not it Suzaku can replace them with his own counterparts. Will it be bloody when the "transition" takes place? Considering loss of political power in the Empire often results in the loss of life, limb and liberty I'd say yes it's going to be bloody, only this time the carnage will spread to all parts of the Empire, not just Area 11.

coefficient

2007-01-12, 20:37

The obvious RL historical parallel with Suzaku that I can think of right now would be Flavius(?) Stilicho of Rome. This dude was half Roman, half barbarian, but because of his efforts the Empire was able to survive for a few more years. He had many reasons to take control himself, yet he didn't. He defended the Empire, and acted the good little Roman well. And in the end, all it took to take him down was a couple of jealous aristocrats. And things just went to hell after he died. For both the Foederati (sp?) and for pure Romans.

This needs to be emphasized. Times change, people don't, and the world of politics in an absolute monarchy with a large noble class is cut-throat. Suzaku may end the rebellion through his piloting skills; he may be a tactical and strategic genius and crush the EU forces at El Alamein or whatever, and they will use him to save their asses as much as they can; but when all is said and done, he will not be able to assume power himself or invoke any sort of meaningful change, as the aristocrats have too much invested in the status quo. It'll be the Earl of Wiltingshire-on-Rexonfordesborough III in his room at night stabbing him in the back, and some minor branch of the le Britannia family assuming the throne (with the understanding that their power depends upon the goodwill of their noble backers, of course; politics is a world full of mutual backscratching) and it'll be back to the status quo. Not to mention his only viable path to a position where he can enact meaningful reform is through either Euphemia or -maybe- Cornelia, if he keeps saving her ass and she gets uncharacteristically grateful, and to place them in power he has to either start killing him some princes or help them win a war of succession, both of which are just as bloody as Zero's path. Zero at least tries to avoid civilian casualties, even if it is just for practical/PR purposes (recall that the landslide was much bigger than he had planned for): in a war of succession or just simple noble infighting civilian casualties are unavoidable, as the youngest child can make a claim.

Nanaya

2007-01-12, 20:46

Lelouch won the battle of Narita now mather how you look. De damage to the Oder was little, they lost 3 or 4 Knightmares and thats it. Cornelia lost at least 80% during the operation only to the landslide. SO it is Lelouch victory either way around.

80%? Where'd you get the number? The following episode clearly said that a military victory was achieved by the Empire. The JLF main force, including Toudou's, was destroyed, The Black Knights retreated since they CAN'T win a battle of attrition. We only saw 3 and 4 Knightmares destroyed for the BK, but that doesn't mean they didn't lose more, as well as their infantry.

The landslide also damaged only a probably around 9-10% of Cornelia's forces at maximum if the Imperials swarmed the mountain all round by judging its size and direction.

Also the part of "I'm bigger than yours" as you say is important because we are talking about there way of achiving things. Uptil now you talked about Suzaku and his doing things is better on the whol. But the fact is he isn't doing anything.

What I'm talking about Suzaku is what his goals are, NOT what he has achieved up to now, since that's just unfair. Suzaku's goals take longer to take effect. This "bigger than yours" way of thinking is just a shortsighted way of looking at characters. Just like condemning someone as completely evil or completely good, which is something that I rarely do.

nanaya..... you must really love suzaku no?
No, not really. But I AM tired of people giving the guy flak while I can't even find a single guy sympathizing with someone who does his best not only for Elevens, but also for Britannians, because they are all the same to him: humans.

I m not trying to judge what you said or what the other said.
But ONE thing is totally undeniable: Suzaku cannot change britannia. Even if all the royal familie dies except yuffie. Why you could ask me....

Because Brittania isnt a democracy , not even a monarchy by the feeling cg gives us, but a dictature ruled by the almigthy king and the noble court. You may say that the conquered area can govern themselves and such but it looks to me that the king can do whatever he wants (by assassination if needed) and the nobles can also have some pression on the king (well not on lulu s father coz hes too strong). But yuffie if she is ever to be queen wouldnt use murder or anything of the sort, and thus couldnt control the empire because other people(the britannian nobles) wouldnt hesitate to murder her for the throne. The power struggle in the higher sphere of the britanian empire is a real lion pit and there is no way that an honorary britanian can change that.

Even dictators can rule effectively if they are enlightened. It doesn't matter if it's a democracy or not. Being a democracy doesn't make it's people any better than a centralized monarchy's. When I say that Suzaku proves himself to the Britannian royalty and populace, I mean he proves himself so that he'll gain political allies in his goal of Number advancement in society.

Euphemia isn't possibly the only moderate in the Empire.

Another thing that you cant deny is that it is quite wrong for suzaku to always speak of justice. I m not saying that zero is more in the justice side than suzaku nor that suzaku is a treator. But Britannia had invaded japan for money and thus killed a lot of people , than parked most of the people in ghettos and calling them by a number like animals or objects. Althougth there is a system of honorary britanians, it must be really hard for the japanese to get it, because you must accept to become a dog to the britanians (the hot dog seller WAS a honorary britanian and to work he must endure some humiliation). We must not forget that it has not been a very long time since britania invaded japan so rigth now britannians are still invaders in most japanese views. It is really hard to try to blend in..... ok suzaku is trying to give an example by trying to get the best of the britanian invasion but it is not easy, not everyone can do it. Try to think for a real life exemple in the place of the irakians. Is it easy to be supportive to the americans who invaded their country? (well of course irak is very extreme).
Well back to topic, I wanted to say that terrorrisms in a country that has been invaded is to be expected, it is totally normal. But the army of occupation that figth the terrorrists hardly have justice with them, and thus suzaku that works for such an army doesnt have justice behind him.

Suzaku's sense of justice is different from the army he serves. He is like a sleeper that will change the system from within, rather than by breaking it from without. He has to bide his time before he acts or everything that he sacrificed will be for nothing. Suzaku puts his everything on the line to change the system from the very start. As of now, Lulu hasn't bet anything yet since no one knows that he is actually Zero.

The Iraq war is not really an easy way to get you through this argument. Americans only invaded to defeat Saddam. Not colonization. That's why Americans want to leave as soon as they have rebuilt the Iraqi Army. Also, Baghdad citizens actually welcome the presence of American soldiers because when they're there, less people die. The residents also know that if the Americans leave now, their country will descend to chaos and may be the starting point of a widespread Shiite-Sunni war.

Suzaku allows himself to suffer the indignities of today so that the Numbers of tomorrow will have an equal standing in the Empire in the future WITHOUT the need for any things such as rebellions.

Well I know there migth be holes in my speech, coz it was long and I m too lazy to reread, but I ll gladly develop my point of view to say that it is totally impossible for suzaku to change britannia and that suzaku is a hypocrite if he thinks justice is with him/the britnian army

Impossible is only a word the weak-willed use when things get hard.

Changing Britannia is not impossible if Suzaku can foster trust and respect between Britannians and Numbers. Also, you shouldn't group Suzaku's justice with the justice of the Britannian army, coz' if you do, you will never see what Suzaku is really doing and what he is really sacrificing.

Oh I forgot to say that winning always make you rigth coz its well known that its the victors that make history (and you can even put in place morals that indeed make you the allie of justice).

So if Nazi Germany won the war, they'd be right? Well, that maybe so, but not to me.

Just like the fact that I don't think that what the Britannians are doing is right, I also think that what Lulu is doing isn't right at all. Just because they win doesn't make them right. Historians don't give you your sense of right or wrong. YOU have your sense of right and wrong.

I have to say that I hate Suzaku with a passion, for cooperating with the empire that invaded his own country and treat his own people like dog, and for being a hypocrite. I hope that Lelouch or whoever will give him a healthy dose of reality, make him fall like a rock and cry like a little girl (ala Shinn Asuka) eventually. Death is too good for him.

Suzaku is cooperating with his country's occupiers because it's been seven years already since the invasion. He can only see his path as the path with the least needless civilian bloodshed that can be caused by both sides. He never treated other people like dogs so I can't gather where you got that.

(1) You are misunderstanding between an "useful tool" and a "respectable human". He can show that he is an "outstanding Honorary Britannian" or whatever, and even if the royalty may "respect" him (not really though, except Euphie, they only feel glad to have such a good dog), he cannot make them listen to him, as:

- Even a prince is nothing, so the words of just a "honor" has no weight. Remember Lulu's mother. She become empress from a commoner, and see what she got. Suzaku is much lower than her in all's view, and will be easily eliminated if they want. Euphie now may also be dead if she raises his idea.

Suzaku's mother was just another wife for the Emperor. She got killed to make it easier for certain people to climb up the succession ladder, not just because she was a commoner before. Also, Cornelia won't Euphemia die judging from her personality.

Also, please, PLEASE don't talk about differentiating "useful tools" and "respectable humans" because everyone is classified whether they are useful or not and whether their usefulness demands respect and trust.

It's just like Lulu "using" the entire Japan liberation effort for his true goal of destroying the Empire. Now that I think about it, Lelouche really is proving the truth in his father's words right at his banishment.

- Showing that one can be "good" doesn't lead to the change of Britanian's mind about all of the Japanese (the empires will only think: ok, this traitor is useful). You know, a good dog is always a dog, and lower than even a bad person.

Now, now. You're just blanketing ALL Britannians as close-minded people when people like Euphemia, the Student Council, and even Nanaly, exist. Even that old Britannian in the episode 12 meeting seemed like a moderate.

--> He is only know as the Number pilot of Lancelot. Like the Lancelot, he may climb to an important position, but always they use him, not vice versa (maybe yes if he only want sth for himself, and has a brain, here he has no brain and wants a revolution !!)

He is only known as a Number pilot, now. If his climb continues, this argument goes down the drain.

LOOK, Suzaku has sacrificed his pride and his honor to pave a path not only for Elevens, but for all Numbers. His success will make it easier for other Britannians to accept other Numbers. THAT is what he is betting his everything for.

(2) As I've said, his "changing from inside" is unrealistic. But more important than that is what he's doing is not less evil than Zero but he is so shameless to be angry with Zero's every move (to him, Zero shouldn't save the hostages, and let them face the risks to die in his show-off). Moreover, he didn't piss of with the army's massacres at all, and still helping them to kill his ppl

Changing from the inside isn't unrealistic. Not at all. It just takes a great amount of will and determination not to be corrupted by the system one person is entering.

Suzaku has never been directly involved in a fight against civilians. So how can he do anything in a place where he is not involved in. He can't be pissed at what he cannot directly see.

And the battles he fights aren't massacres at all, because he believes, and rightly so, that the people he is fighting are those who still allow chaos to cover the land of Area 11.

And it is this chaos that won't allow peace and progress to occur.

P.S. THIS TIME, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, PLEASE LET ME FINISH REPLYING TO EVERYONE BEFORE YOU MAKE ANOTHER ARGUMENT. 1 man against 8 to 10 people is difficult to manage.

coefficient

2007-01-12, 20:57

80%? Where'd you get the number? The following episode clearly said that a military victory was achieved by the Empire. The JLF main force, including Toudou's, was destroyed, The Black Knights retreated since they CAN'T win a battle of attrition. We only saw 3 and 4 Knightmares destroyed for the BK, but that doesn't mean they didn't lose more, as well as their infantry.

I believe that the poster you were quoting was referring to the order of battle Cornelia brought with her to Narita; there was an image of a screen where the landslide wiped out all except isolated pockets of the Britannian forces. This, I think, gives the JLF the victory, as when you don't have overwhelming force and you're fighting a mountain that has cannons sticking out of it the result is inevitable. I believe the Britannian forces had to withdraw; that gives the JLF the victory, though I think it's a rather Pyrrhic one.

Now, now. You're just blanketing ALL Britannians as close-minded people when people like Euphemia, the Student Council, and even Nanaly, exist. Even that old Britannian in the episode 12 meeting seemed like a moderate.
.

Of course they exist; even during the era of racist, elitist imperialist policy in Europe and the United States there were people like the abolitionists and the Chartists and all the rest who were open-minded and progressive and led to change. However, you must remember that the political situations in their respective countries allowed for them to take political action; this is not the case in Code Geass, as Britannia is not the liberal, parliamentary United Kingdom that granted suffrage to all (or most) of its (white) subjects but a crazy military dictatorship run by a social darwinist with an awesome wig. It'd be like a Dutchman trying to "change the system from within" during the era of Spanish rule and violently hating and denouncing his countrymen when they declared independence and founded the United Provinces. Ok, obscure example - maybe an Indian trying to rise to prominence during the height of the Victorian era and trying to have Indians enfranchised and integrated into the British political system. The British Raj was much like the political situation in Code Geass, after all.

edit: even better example! a Korean trying to rise to prominence in imperial Japan in an effort to make Koreans the equals of the Japanese in citizenship and power. Though even that's not the greatest example, as I understand that prior to the Bushido revival movement that preceded the militarist government of the 1930s Japan was actually quite liberally democratic, if xenophobic. The post-WWI years were apparently years of increasing liberality. But I'm not an expert or even an amateur enthusiast on that topic, so feel free to correct me.

Nanaya

2007-01-12, 22:46

As I pointed out before, I just don't think he really has a good idea of what he's trying to achieve and how he wants to achieve it. His basic plan seems to be playing Brittania lapdog so he can minimize casualties with some sort of belief it will change the way Brittania operates. I seriously wonder if even Suzaku himself knows what he's fighting for, or if he's just running away from his past.

Basically, people have to read Suzaku's lines to be able to grasp what it is he wants. What he wants isn't obvious so people will, in turn, obviously just label him as a lapdog traitor because it's EASIER to do so than to understand him.

My guess is he actually is a traitor (hinted by his induced flashbacks, although not confirmed), and because of that he has sought refuge among the Britannians. He may even have gotten his honorary citizenship based on this. Apart from that, he's still a hypocrite by lamenting victims while conveniently ignoring the actions of the very army he is a part of.

One reason that he joined the army is to minimize the casualties which his side causes. Of course, he may sound like a hypocrite, but he isn't someone who has a Freedom Gundam supporting him with a secret base leisurely roving around the country. He is limited by what he can do. But even, he is still doing something.

I never said they would be killing Britannians; I mentioned specifically that most would just endure it out of selfpreservation. Plus I don't think he's sacrificing much really by being among Britannians since I suspect he is reluctant to face Elevens because of his possible past betrayal.

I don't think you understand what I meant. WOULD they be happier that Britannians die rather than just being people who will work hard and be part of the empire instead?

What I was trying to get out of that is what the Elevens want are better living conditions and treatment, not necessarily independence. If Suzaku is able to change the empire for them, then the problem is solved.

Not sure what the point of this is, it's obvious there are plenty of non-military Britannians and they are sure to have their share of openminded and nonhostile people. It's obvious they need the natives' cooperation for Area 11 to thrive, but that's just being practical and doesn't necessarily mean they think well of the Elevens. Although I'm surprised we haven't seen any of them question their nation's policy of invading and colonizing other countries, props to their country's propoganda I suppose, which probably is partly responsible for most of the image their people have of the countries they invade, resulting in alot of the discrimination.

Being practical makes a person less discriminatory than other people. Being practical means logic comes first before prejudice.

Also, the same phrase can be used against you as well. Just because we've seen Britannian thugs around the settlements, it doesn't necessarily mean that all Britannians in the settlement are like that.

Sure I can. What you're suggesting is a long shot at best, with the current emperor still in place. Even if he would become aware of Suzaku's exploits, that's no guarantee he would acknowledge him, let alone be influenced by him. He might even have purist inclinations and have him demoted or kicked out of the Britannian military. If I were to speculate on what's going to happen in CG, I'd say the emperor will die at some point which might allow Suzaku to make a difference.

If the Emperor truly had Purist inclinations, Honorary Britannians wouldn't have been ever enlisted in the army like Suzaku was. What is clear about the emperor is that he believes that the "strong live and the weak die". If Suzaku is able to show his resolve, even the emperor could change his mind if that philosophy is what he TRULY believes in. Even if the Emperor is a jerk, Suzaku can gain favor from the royalty that is allowing him to climb the ranks.

It IS a longshot, that I do agree with you. But that's the only thing that Suzaku can bet on.

Oh, and if anything makes Suzaku look like a fool it's his own actions and statements. Actually staying in the army after nearly getting executed unjustly by them, and making hypocritical statements about Zero don't reflect well on himself. Lelouche is no saint, and he does have his own agenda, but at least he doesn't make excuses for himself.

Staying in the army after nearly getting executed unjustly was done for the sake of his fellow Honorary Britannians. Had he not returned, HB's would never have had a second chance in the Empire to be regarded as citizens. THAT is another example of his self-sacrifice.

Hypocritical? Zero also makes hypocritical statements himself, you know? What kind of peaceful world can he achieve by bringing even more discord in the fray. He claims himself an ally of justice, yet he does everything for his own selfish reasons. Selfish enough that he is willing to turn the world upside down for it. He is not the only person who suffered in their world. His sister isn't the only one who suffers in their world. How about the JLF lives he sacrificed like pawns in the battlefield? Don't they have family of their own? How about the Britannian soldiers he kill? They also have family and loved ones. How about the civilians who will undoubtedly get caught in his reckless plans?

Lulu's sense of justice isn't any far worse than Suzaku's if you ask for hypocrisy, and yet it's only one guy who gets the flak.

It's unlikely they'll feel that way any time soon, even with less discrimination. You don't suddenly "forget" you're the victim of a hostile invasion. It would make it easier to bear, but that's a kind of grudge that doesn't die out easily. Ofcourse they don't like the unrest caused by the rebellion either, because of the resulting tension and a chance to get caught in the middle.

Actually, grudges can die easily if you're offered food and bread and a nice home and better living standards. A kind of modified Stockholm syndrome. Most people don't really care about pride. They just want easier lives. If less discrimination occurs, that would really help improve the Elevens' lives. That is what Suzaku is aiming for with his service.

It's not caused by Lelouche, it was already there. Ofcourse his actions don't help it either, but that's another matter. And from the support he's getting it seems that they generally symphatize with his actions. I think it's safe to say they feel like prisoners in their own country because it's being occupied by a hostile military force, the discrimination only reinforces that feeling.

Does it even matter if it was already there? The only course of action is to make the distrust disappear, not whine about it.

Another matter? Are you kidding me? Lelouche's actions make the distrust worse, whereas Suzaku is trying to make Britannians trust Elevens. If Britannian distrust of Elevens decrease, discrimination can be lessened. If the discrimination completely disappears, then the feeling of being prisoners disappears. Logical and simple.

Both sacrifice lives, either directly or indirectly.
I agree. But the problem is, Lulu doesn't get as much flak for his recklessness as Suzaku is for his reluctant obedience. Both cause death and both of them should be seen as two sides of the same coin rather than one side being on the side of good or evil. That is because everyone's sense of justice is different, and inherently, so are their views of what is good and evil.

Is that really Suzaku's goal? He hasn't exactly been clear about what he's trying to achieve.

Well, that's what you'll get for trying to change the system from within: integration. Even though he hasn't been clear, it is up to the viewer to understand him and his point of view. Which is why I think a lot of people just think of Suzaku as some kind of traitor with a warped sense of justice: they don't take the time to understand what makes him tick, because it's easier to just label him as Lulu's enemy.

That's just a convenient excuse they make for themselves. You can be sure they will realize that plenty of people in the ghettos don't want to get involved with the rebellion for fear of retaliation. From a military pov it might still be the best way to deal with the rebels, but they know for a fact that they're killing a fair share of innocent people in the process.

Well, as I said before: collateral damage. Logically speaking, it's the easiest way to fight their war without losing as many of their own troops.

Just like with my example of the Fil-Am war. I really deplored the horrendous acts committed by American troops on my ancestors, but logically speaking, that was the easiest way of dealing with an insurgency. A smart warrior may be lambasted for his brutality but he's just looking for his own.

Yes, both the Geass ability and Lancelot are plot devices (IMO, obviously.) The difference is in how Lelouche and Suzaku uses them, respectively. Lulu could EASILY have just gotten out of Shinjuku, but he didn't. He chose to stay and fight. He actually used his plot device instead of depending on more, and more, and more. We can argue whether the Guren is a PD as well, too. I'm not going to say he was in the right in everything he's done, because he is obviously a very, very morally grey character.

Well, both Suzaku and Lulu are morally grey characters.

Understand that the Lancelot is Suzaku's PD, as well Euphemia and Cornelia I suppose. He's not in a position to do anything yet. So you can't really blame him. He wasn't given a Geas to make things easier for his climb now, right?

Now let's consider Suzaku. He joins the military. Great. He wants to change Britannia from the inside. Also great. Respectable goal. Purely idiotic means of getting his message across. Before we get to his means, let's examine his actions thus far:

1) BECAUSE Karen & Co. stole C.C. and Lulu happens to get stuck in the whole ensuing mess, Suzie gets a shiny mech. Because of this, he is in effect bringing a gun to a fist fight everytime he waltzed onto the field.
2) BECAUSE Lulu got the Geass ability and committed fratricide, Suz gets public recognition for a crime he didn't commit. Not really a good thing, but it leads into his other "accomplishments."
3) BECAUSE Lulu CHOSE to save him, he gets cleared of all charges.
4) BECAUSE he gets cleared of all charges, he meets Euphie. A royal princess who just so happens to have a military general for an elder sister.
5) BECAUSE Lulu Oranged Jeremiah, Suzaku was able to act the hero and save the day.
6) BECAUSE Zero was such a thorn in Cornelia's side, Suzaku got to play the dashing hero, again. And again. And again.

Now, of all the things he's supposedly accomplished, how many of those things would he have gotten done if Zero wasn't in the picture? I say, not bloody much. He'd likely have died without anyone knowing his name. Would Britannia have recognized his service? Probably not.

Like what the series is showing us, Suzaku's fate is intertwined with Lulu's. I'm not really sure if that should be enough to just wail on the guy. Even if he didn't have Zero to confront, there are other insurgent groups in the area to fight for him. It'd take longer for Suzaku to achieve his goal, but that would also apply for Lulu had the man never gotten his Geass.

Suzaku sure likes to whine about the meaning of justice and all that merry stuff, but the doing seems quite out of his league. Lloyd even takes him to task on the very matter on at least two separate occasions. Even Lulu's dependence on PDs isn't quite this drastic. He does take matters into his own hands whenever possible.

Umm, how many times should Lulu be dead or captured by now if it weren't for his C.C. PD?

However, I'll buy the destiny bit. Perhaps Suzaku was fated for these things. Unlikely to happen in the real world, but perfectly fine within the confines of an animated series. But let us now examine his methods. The Numbers system takes away a nation's cultural identity. A conquered country suddenly becomes little more than a number in Britannia's territories: no culture, no identity, no pride. As someone above this post said, Britannia behaves like a military dictatorship, and strength seems to be valued above all else.

So? If a Number proves himself valuable in a government that values strength above all (even prejudice), then isn't that what exactly what Suzaku's aiming for?

The Numbers system is a very practical and logical way of creating administrative areas where assimilation of peoples into the the empire can take place. People will never be fully assimilated as long as they have their silly culture, identity and pride. Once these things are completely crushed, assimilation is made easier. Another logical way to create a united Imperial front.

Now please tell me how a Number can ever hope to impress his obviously racist superiors (I'm thinking of the Special Ops commander in Episode 1 here.) Even the rank and file seems to have little qualms with killing the elderly, and women and children.

Cornelia is impressed by Suzaku enough to put him in her guard unit. She's way higher in rank than that superior you're talking about, who is already dead by the way.

Also, once an area is designated as a battlefield, everyone on the area becomes a combatant. It doesn't matter if that is an elderly person, woman, or, child. Why would soldiers make themselves any less effective in combat with things like mercy when mercy and kindness got carefree soldiers killed Vietnam and Afghanistan just because their opponents were women and children.

These are your examples of understanding Britannians.
Quote:
Euphemia. The Student Council. They are Britannians.

It just goes to show that acceptance comes. Not suddenly, but it does.
Let me just point out that all of these people are sheltered. Judging from her air-headed behavior during the Purist fracas, Euphemia was pampered and protected from court intrigues by her extremely powerful older sister. As such, she's an idealist: in her opinion, it'd be great if everyone held hands and sang songs. It's perfectly reasonable that she'd be well disposed towards equality for all. Somehow, I doubt the Darwin-loving members of her family think the same way. And they are the ones who can institute change.

Umm... so would that mean that the rest of the Britannians aren't all sheltered?

This is just another blanket approach to label people as evil. Just like how the American WW2 phrase "The only good Jap is a dead Jap." was coined. That is the kind of thinking that Suzaku wants to defeat.

Cornelia isn't the greatest example either: Suzaku saved her life as well as that of her beloved sister. She's biased towards him. How impressed would she have been with Suzaku if he hadn't done those things? Would she have been impressed in his ability to follow orders? No - the woman kills soldiers who can't follow retreat orders, as we've all seen.

Well, the thing is, Suzaku has already gained Cornelia's trust so trying to backtrack is useless argument and even baseless.

Also, if I were in the middle of a battle, I'd shoot soldiers who weren't able to follow orders well. Why the brutal treatment? Because if soldiers don't follow as told, more of Cornelia's troops could've been put in harm's way. It is only logical military thinking. Being in the military isn't a charity organization. You're there to win with as little losses on your side while obliterating the other.

And the student council (and here, I'm guessing you're excluding Nina.) Biggest bunch of fops I've ever seen. Likely to be quite well off if they're attending a prestigious academic institution. Most likely just as sheltered as Euphie. How about the other students at Ashford? You know, the ones that were so excited at looking over pictures of the Shinjuku massacre? The only Britannians that truly accept Elevens as equals despite their upbringing, IMO, are Cecil and maybe Diethard. Two people in a sea of racists. In fact, I'll even toss in the entire Ashford Academy as supporters of equality in all Britannia. That's what...a thousand people? Opposed to the entire Purist faction, and the seemingly ingrained idea of Britannian superiority over inferior 'Numbers.' Suddenly the future looks bleak.

Well, I did say that acceptance comes slowly. That is what Suzaku is trying to fight for. The fight for acceptance and equality in the empire is hard, but is Suzaku giving up? Heck no!

Even Nina seems to have lightened up to Suzaku as the later episodes show, right?

The obvious RL historical parallel with Suzaku that I can think of right now would be Flavius(?) Stilicho of Rome. This dude was half Roman, half barbarian, but because of his efforts the Empire was able to survive for a few more years. He had many reasons to take control himself, yet he didn't. He defended the Empire, and acted the good little Roman well. And in the end, all it took to take him down was a couple of jealous aristocrats. And things just went to hell after he died. For both the Foederati (sp?) and for pure Romans.

Well, Suzaku hasn't been taken down yet so that parallel isn't even parallel yet. If he fails, then you could brand that on him, but as of yet, he hasn't let up for the moment.

In the end, I guess all I have to say regarding Suzaku is his original character concept is truly strange. It's like he thinks that by doing his job - something that's expected in the military - he's going to get Britannia to suddenly change its ways. Sorry, I don't buy it. Unless he is as immortal as C.C., I don't see it working in his lifetime. Let's put it this way: if you were Jewish, would you have joined Hitler's armies? How far do you think you would have gotten?

You may not buy it but that's what the guy believes in. His is the harder path to take and so many people will find it easier to abandon any faith in Suzaku.

Also, there is a distinct difference between Hitler's armies and Britannia: one of them is out to cleanse the world of "subhumans", while one of them is out to conquer the world and subdue its peoples under the rule of one flag by the strong.

Hence, the prospects of making something happen is greater in the Britannian Empire than in Hitler's Reich.

Not to say I don't expect great things from this character: he has the potential for lots of drama, precisely because of his astonishingly hypocritical stance.

Well, Lulu's hypocritical as well as I already explained. It's only Suzaku who gets flakked up.

But turning into a Kira clone literally strips Suzaku of his worst traits so far, that is his hypocricy and all talk/no action deeds.

Not that I'm saying it's a good thing for him to be a Kira clone (( not melancholic and vague enough )), but ideally, the worst things about him are hardly the worst things about Kira.

If anything, he needs to be a Griffith clone..Oh wait, that's Lelouch.

The most annoying thing about Suzaku is that everyone in the anime seems to sympathize with his half-assed logic, and doesn't point out the various flaws in his plan (if he has one). The last thing we need is Sunrise turning him into a Kira clone and the show will be complete trash. Ugh!

Umm, Kira is a character I truly hate. He makes conflicts last longer than they should, he doesn't kill when he has to, he steals other people's fiancees, and he's practically invincible.

Suzaku is better off not being Kira. This rebellion would take longer to suppress if he was. And Suzaku wants to end this conflict as quickly as possible to lessen any civilian casualties caused by said conflict.

People can sympathize with Suzaku because his logic isn't half-assed at all. He wants to change the Empire from the inside. Just the opposite of Lulu's logic. Same coin, different sides.

Except the Battle of Narita would be a victory only it it was a war of conquest, which it isn't. Narita was already under Britannian occupation officialy. This is an insurgency despite the pitched battles and in insurgencies the occupying power has to win conviciningly, and having 80% armour losses , approximately 80 Knightmares of the 100 assault team of the vanguard, loss of one division in one enemy trap (not counting civilian and troop casulties), the CO AND colonial administrator under real threat of capture isn't going to be counted as a win in almost all military situations, especially an insurgency.

A military victory is a military victory. Period. Insurgency or not, if the insurgent's military forces are depleted, then what will they fight with?

80% of the vanguard and a division. Which is probably around 15-20% of the entire assault army that attacked Narita, if you take into account the size of the mountain and the sliver of a landslide that occurred. That's just a small sacrifice considering that the major JLF forces where crushed, losing all of Toudou's Burai Kai's along the way. JLF forces scattered and some were captured. Even Lulu got his forces to retreat because he KNEW that they had no chance in a war of attrition against Cornelia's army after it regrouped from the shock of the landslide operation.

That is the beauty of Cornelia's army configuration. It still regrouped and defeated their enemy after being surprised. THAT IS A MILITARY VICTORY. Their casualties were a small price to pay for what they accomplished.

And get this, that's just a single Imperial Army. It probably isn't even Cornelia's entire army that attacked Narita since she'd need to leave troops behind bases and whatnot.

Throw in the breaking of formation during the retreat to rescue Cornelia and the fact that the insurgency leader again evaded capture and you have a full blown disaster on your hands. Even in a war of conquest this would be a pyrhrric victory at best, in an insurgency this is a disaster.

Umm... I explained it up top. Militarily speaking, this wasn't pyrrhic at all. Only Cornelia's pride was beaten, not her army.

Props to Zero for a brilliant attack but even he retreated because he knew that his army would get decimated if they pressed on. It was only because of C.C. that the insurgency leader even escaped.

This is no disaster by any means. Only pessimists will say so, or, people trying to make an argument for Zero's sake when he clearly lost to Cornelia's army by retreating while using JLF soldiers as human shields and pawns in his game of battlefield chess with his half-sister.

Sure, the JLF saw the routing of their main base and main army but it was to be expected when an insurgent group comes under heavy assault by the occupying force. For the occupying forces, victory should have been at minimal cost which it was going to be until Zero decided to give them a mud bath and send Kallen ripping up Britannian units.

It was a minimal cost. 15-20% of a SINGLE Imperial Army for decimating the MAIN forces of the JLF.

It was a disaster for the JLF but the Brits paid dearly for the "victory" in which a reble group already nearing it's limit was used very effectively as cannon fodder by the new, real threat which is the Order of the Black Knights to inflict horrendous casualties, come within inches of capturing the colonial admin thus shattering morale among the occupying forces and proving to the Japanese the Brits can be defeated in battle which they were, the resumed occupation of Narita, which shouldn't have been allowed to become JLF influenced anyway.

The casualties weren't that horrendous from what I explained. The Black Knights most likely lost a lot more troops than what was shown. Only to be expected.

It was an Order victory and Lulu never cared much for the JLF much anyway (to be honest, neither much of Japan). How many more Naritas can Britaninnia take before it becomes a Ligny (French victory) prelude to Waterloo (Sure you heard of that by now.)

I highly doubt that it was an Order military victory. Maybe a moral victory for messing up an otherwise easy fight for Cornelia, but moral victories amount to nothing in terms of result, real world or not.

As for bumping off the other royals, Suzaku will obviously have to be in a position where either Euphie or Cornelia is will be supporting him when he through either of them presses the treason charges first. If anyone is able to presses treason against him still, then obviously he hasn't come far enough to be able to enact real change either through Euphie or Corneila who both must die, sooner or later. Especially Cornelia.

Umm, Suzaku isn't the kind of person who'd just kill needlessly. He'd rather gain favor through service than obedience through a gun.

Basically, Suzaku is fighting the Empire's ideals by being its antithesis, while Lelouch is fighting the Empire's ideals by using the Empire's own ideals against it.

Lastly, how can Suzaku ever make Britannians and Numbers equal when the national identity of the Empire is built on difference. For that to happen, the Brit/ Number difference will have to disappear and with it, the Empire. All Numbered areas and the homeland will have to come under ONE nation, without distinction between the areas and ALL considered Britannians. How is that going to happen? The Empire as it is will have to go along with it's old power structure and institutions. Will it cost chaos, probably not it Suzaku can replace them with his own counterparts. Will it be bloody when the "transition" takes place? Considering loss of political power in the Empire often results in the loss of life, limb and liberty I'd say yes it's going to be bloody, only this time the carnage will spread to all parts of the Empire, not just Area 11.

The Empire is built on difference, but when assimilation is completed, that difference will disappear. That much is true.

But when that happens, why is it exactly that the Empire will disappear?

The Empire will evolve and change for the better, not disappear. That is what Suzaku is aiming for. Just because the Empire becomes less bloodthirsty doesn't mean that it'll suddenly collapse. That's just flawed thinking.

P.S. I'm NOT finished yet. Please let me finish replying.

Nanaya

2007-01-12, 23:20

This needs to be emphasized. Times change, people don't, and the world of politics in an absolute monarchy with a large noble class is cut-throat.

Just like in our history that some absolute monarchs were enlightened and had the will to let people govern on their own terms, not all absolute monarchies are as bad as you make them sound.

As times change, people do to. To say that people don't change is a prejudiced idea that allows misunderstanding and killing to occur not only in the Geass world, but also in our real world as well.

Suzaku may end the rebellion through his piloting skills; he may be a tactical and strategic genius and crush the EU forces at El Alamein or whatever, and they will use him to save their asses as much as they can; but when all is said and done, he will not be able to assume power himself or invoke any sort of meaningful change, as the aristocrats have too much invested in the status quo.
Well, that remains to be proven. Not everyone is alike and not everyone's vision is the same. Whether you are aristocrat or commoner, my words hold the same.

It'll be the Earl of Wiltingshire-on-Rexonfordesborough III in his room at night stabbing him in the back, and some minor branch of the le Britannia family assuming the throne (with the understanding that their power depends upon the goodwill of their noble backers, of course; politics is a world full of mutual backscratching) and it'll be back to the status quo.
Nice history lesson, but that is merely speculation as to what will happen.

Just because the path to one's goal seem hard to take and almost closed, does that mean that a person should give up and let the world descend into hell.

I, for one, do not have any love for the defeatist idea that you spurt out.

Not to mention his only viable path to a position where he can enact meaningful reform is through either Euphemia or -maybe- Cornelia, if he keeps saving her ass and she gets uncharacteristically grateful, and to place them in power he has to either start killing him some princes or help them win a war of succession, both of which are just as bloody as Zero's path.

What is it with this killing princes and princesses thing you people keep spouting about? Suzaku's sense of justice won't allow him to do something that Lulu would do.

That's the point of the entire series: Two people wanting to effect change but with two completely opposite and different methods.

It can be obtained from watching the series that the governor-generals hold complete autonomy for administrating their areas by Clovis' approach of allowing zaibatsus to remain. At the very least, Suzaku can influence good government for the Elevens through Euphemia and Cornelia (if he climbs enough) even if the two never become Empresses.

Zero at least tries to avoid civilian casualties, even if it is just for practical/PR purposes (recall that the landslide was much bigger than he had planned for): in a war of succession or just simple noble infighting civilian casualties are unavoidable, as the youngest child can make a claim.

Umm, again... this royal killing thing is more of Lulu's approach, if you ask me. Not Suzaku's.

I believe that the poster you were quoting was referring to the order of battle Cornelia brought with her to Narita; there was an image of a screen where the landslide wiped out all except isolated pockets of the Britannian forces. This, I think, gives the JLF the victory, as when you don't have overwhelming force and you're fighting a mountain that has cannons sticking out of it the result is inevitable. I believe the Britannian forces had to withdraw; that gives the JLF the victory, though I think it's a rather Pyrrhic one.

Did you even see the aerial view of the battlefield? Cornelia surrounded the WHOLE mountain in that to make escape even possible for Order and JLF troopers was contingent on breaking the military formation of Cornelia's cordon.

I guess you haven't watched the aftermath as well, right? The JLF main forces were routed and many were captured. Toudou lost all his Burai Kais. The Order was forced to retreat BECAUSE they couldn't possibly win against Cornelia's army once it regrouped after the initial shock the landslide caused.

Did you even understand what Lulu was aiming for? It wasn't the military annihilation of the Imperial Army because he lacked the capacity to do so. He was aiming for the head of the army, Governor-General Cornelia. If he took Cornelia's head, then I could say that the Order and the JLF would've won due to the chaos Cornelia's demise could cause to her troops.

But she wasn't taken thanks to Suzaku, which ultimately led to the military victory that I explained up a post. It was even bluntly said that they won the battle militarily in the Britannian meeting, while the Kyoto people said that they lost heavily.

Of course they exist; even during the era of racist, elitist imperialist policy in Europe and the United States there were people like the abolitionists and the Chartists and all the rest who were open-minded and progressive and led to change. However, you must remember that the political situations in their respective countries allowed for them to take political action; this is not the case in Code Geass, as Britannia is not the liberal, parliamentary United Kingdom that granted suffrage to all (or most) of its (white) subjects but a crazy military dictatorship run by a social darwinist with an awesome wig. It'd be like a Dutchman trying to "change the system from within" during the era of Spanish rule and violently hating and denouncing his countrymen when they declared independence and founded the United Provinces. Ok, obscure example - maybe an Indian trying to rise to prominence during the height of the Victorian era and trying to have Indians enfranchised and integrated into the British political system. The British Raj was much like the political situation in Code Geass, after all.

edit: even better example! a Korean trying to rise to prominence in imperial Japan in an effort to make Koreans the equals of the Japanese in citizenship and power. Though even that's not the greatest example, as I understand that prior to the Bushido revival movement that preceded the militarist government of the 1930s Japan was actually quite liberally democratic, if xenophobic. The post-WWI years were apparently years of increasing liberality. But I'm not an expert or even an amateur enthusiast on that topic, so feel free to correct me.

This is my counter to a very long history lesson that you gave me.

In their system, noble families and royal successors still exist. If even a people like the Ashfords and Euphemia exist, then the possibility of moderates existing in high positions of said military dictatorship is quite high.

Also, I might add that while it seems that the Emperor has full sovereignty over the Empire, you could obtain from the series itself that each and every area are autonomously controlled and administrated by their respective governor-generals. If change can be achieved for each region slowly while Suzaku keeps proving his worth not only to Cornelia and Euphemia, but to all Britannian royalty, then his dreams of achieving what seemed to be a far off goal isn't as pathetic as people would think.

P.S. I'm finished with my replies. Even added the RECENT reply even after pleading to NOT reply before I was completely finished. Thanks to those who did allow me to finish first.

ImperialKnight

2007-01-12, 23:26

Wow just wow, only a few people actually understand the things behind some of the characters.

Let's also not forget that the Lancelot was constructed under the 2nd Imperial Prince. Yet, the Prince ALLOWED a number, whose not even suppose to pilot a KF, to pilot it despite the opposition of most of the Britannian officers. As Euphie's general stated, not even they can shove Suzuka off the board. When Cornelia first arrived she promoted Suzuka to Warrent Officer. And now he stands for another promotion. I would say he is literally a hero for HB's as it shows them that even they can rise to the top in the Britannian Empire. Cornelia stated firmly that she intends to win without numbers but we can see now that has changed. So yes he is changing the system and how people view HB's. Since Euphie shares his views she too will fight for change.

I'm surprised that people critize Suzkua for killing japanese soldiers, who are otherwise enemy combatants, while no one says a peep about Lelouch mudering japanese soldiers (Who otherwise are not his enemy) and killing civilians.

antheonoileo

2007-01-13, 00:12

if and when Britannians learn to trust Elevens, then won't their treatment improve?

*Sigh* The problem, from the start, is not “trust”. What the Britannains feel about the Numbers, are what ppl think about creatures, or tool.
Do you trust your dog (that he is loyal) ? Do you trust your machine (that it is working) ? Do you trust your money (that it can buy food) ? Then do you think they are equal to you ?

Suzaku's mother was just another wife for the Emperor. She got killed to make it easier for certain people to climb up the succession ladder, not just because she was a commoner before. Also, Cornelia won't Euphemia die judging from her personality.

“Not just”, but very important reason. Because she was a commoner, and the family supporting her went down, that she was unpowerful and can be killed. And you see the emperor’s attitude ? Like he knew that before. Suzaku is, in all ways, not as important, not as powerful as the empress. And “She got killed to make it easier for certain people to climb up the succession ladder” so if Suzaku wants a fall down of the structure, hundreds of years developed by Darwin’s crazy fans, what will happen to him ?

Cornelia is not as powerful as you think. Moreover, if she knows about that, what she does first is to prevent Euphie, even by arresting and bringing her to a very far place.

Also, please, PLEASE don't talk about differentiating "useful tools" and "respectable humans" because everyone is classified whether they are useful or not and whether their usefulness demands respect and trust.

Now I know why you support Suzaku. Because you support the Empire’s ideal. I have to declare that not all ppl, except you, the Britainian and a few others, think that “everyone is classified whether they are useful or not”. And besides, I dun think that respect and trust’s role is just to prove usefulness.

To my family and friends, I never consider whether they are useful or not. In my job, I still “use” those people who I don’t love, respect or trust, just because I think they are “useful” in some way. We cooperate because of our benefits, but if they intend to harm me, I won’t be kind to them. In Britanians’ mind, Suzaku is just like, no, even lower than these people to me, so if he goes against their system, *bang bang bang* he is dead

He is only known as a Number pilot, now. If his climb continues, this argument goes down the drain

What can he be beside a Number pilot ? The husband of a princess, whose marriage will stop her from being a candidate to the throne ? He does not have brain/tactics to be a general. The only thing that may work is for him to gain some power by being the husband/very close subordinate of the governer (Euphie), provided that there are no interfere from other nobles. Though this is imposible in real life, it may happen in anime, but just because of Zero’s act.

Changing from the inside isn't unrealistic. Not at all. It just takes a great amount of will and determination not to be corrupted by the system one person is entering.

Suzaku has never been directly involved in a fight against civilians. So how can he do anything in a place where he is not involved in. He can't be pissed at what he cannot directly see.

And the battles he fights aren't massacres at all, because he believes, and rightly so, that the people he is fighting are those who still allow chaos to cover the land of Area 11.

And it is this chaos that won't allow peace and progress to occur.

OK. As you say so…

If you want to change the Nazis from inside, you will joined their army ? As a solder, you will try not to harm civilians, but (1) just killing the French, British, Russian, American… solders, who you think still allow chaos to cover the land of its invaded countries ? and (2) “not directly” but just clear the path for the army to kill civilians as you have defeated all the resisters (if you think they aren’t massacres, remember ep 1, 2, 3)

And you believe you are as white and pure as an angel ? You are not angry at your Nazis and not trying to prevent those massacres at all but you still be able to critize those resistance troops who kill your solders and your lords ? If you attack them, and they have to use some method to counterattack which will involve innocent civilians -yes they will feel regretful, and the victims can critize them- but do you have the right to be angry with them ?

If you think peace is that much important, tell your Gov and ppl to surrender whenever another country wants to invade your own. And if the invaders feel like killing your people, prevent them from resisting. And if they still resist, kill them as they bring chaos to that peaceful colony.

coefficient

2007-01-13, 00:26

Just like in our history that some absolute monarchs were enlightened and had the will to let people govern on their own terms, not all absolute monarchies are as bad as you make them sound.

Yes, there were enlightened despots, liberal absolute monarchs who gave their citizens freedoms without having a constitution limit their powers to force them to give those freedoms. This is one of the great benefits of the institution of monarchy, to my way of thinking, though the institution's negatives outweigh the positive. However, the point remains that the ascent of a liberal monarch who is not willing to bump off his (or her) enemies is only possible in a strictly hereditary context. Britannia, as was established early on in the series (the speech episode, I think) is not a strictly hereditary monarchy; rather, the kids battle it out and the strongest takes the throne. In this context it is impossible for a pacifist king or queen like Euphie or converted-Cornelia to ascend to the throne, as they will simply be killed by their less scrupulous siblings. You called this defeatist rhetoric; in this case, by what mechanism does our theoretical queenmaker Suzaku enact reform? The only possible method I can think of (you may be able to think of a different one) is him gaining charisma-Geass and talking all the various petty princelings into believing in his pacifist vision. But as every good political theorist knows, an anarchic regime is only peaceful in the absence of predators. When one shows up, everything goes to hell.

Well, that remains to be proven. Not everyone is alike and not everyone's vision is the same. Whether you are aristocrat or commoner, my words hold the same.

Nice history lesson, but that is merely speculation as to what will happen.

Theoretical history :P It's a truism, though, that those in power generally disapprove of things that will lessen their power, and allowing greater colonial independence will threaten those with interests in the region, economic or political. We haven't seen much of the ruling class of Britannia, but keeping in mind the general philosophy which drives the Empire, I can't imagine their ruling class being a bunch of teddy bears.

Just because the path to one's goal seem hard to take and almost closed, does that mean that a person should give up and let the world descend into hell.

I, for one, do not have any love for the defeatist idea that you spurt out.

The Earl B. Wexfordshire think is just a nod to the general order of business in aristocracies. Anything Suzaku does to shake the status quo will threaten those that benefit from it; those that are idealists may accept their loss of power or even pledge their assistance - several nobles did join up in the French Revolution, after all - but ultimately all it takes is a conspiracy of a few to assassinate him, and given the general tendency of aristocracies to engage in politics-by-knife (see the late Roman Republic for the best examples of this; it is the best image of the aristocratic republic gone bad, though you'd find the same thing going on in Venice or any other number of places) and the general ideology which drives Britannian political legitimacy and conquest (we kill off the weak people so we become stronger) and Suzaku getting bumped off by a couple of jealous nobles is a very likely thing. Plot armour may protect him, but remember that we're talking about the ethics of his position here. It'd be nice if he could sit down with the House of Lords or whatever and talk them into his way of thinking over a cup of tea, but it's not gonna happen if the writers decide not to cloak the guy in plot armour, so to attempt to justify supporting a state that murders innocents intentionally (as opposed to unintentionally in Lulu's case, and even then there were warnings pre-battle I think on the part of the Britannians) is a hypocritical and unethical position.

What is it with this killing princes and princesses thing you people keep spouting about? Suzaku's sense of justice won't allow him to do something that Lulu would do.

My point was that it's the only possible way of putting his people into power, because we both agree that he's never becoming Emperor so the only way for him to effect change is to have influence with the people holding the highest offices. He's not gonna sway Big Daddy Britannia, I think we both agree, and he's won over Euphie and maybe Cornelia in the future. Now, as it stands, there are two possibilities:

1) The state, legally if not ideologically, runs on a strictly hereditary basis; that said, neither Corelia nor Euhpemia are the heirs apparent. We don't know much about Britannian inheritance law, but Cornelia is the second princess, so she's likely not the crown princess. Even if the crown ran under equal primogeniture, which traditionally in England it did not (though women could inherit in the absence of any male contenders) she'd have to somehow deal with the problem of the people ahead of her in the line of succession. Now, she can either talk them into giving up their claim (yeah right) or she can arrange an "accident". Those are the only two options in this case.

2) The second possibility is that Big Daddy Britannia himself names an heir, which I think is altogether more likely as from the way Lulu speaks it seems like it's a tradition for the heirs to infight and for the strongest to claim dominance. Now we all know what drives his thought - equality is evil, go evolution, yadda yadda. In this case Euphie or a converted-Corny haven't a chance in hell of getting named to the throne, unless they can manage to trick the old guy into naming them, which I doubt because he's a smart guy. He's Lulu's dad, after all. :p In this case the only way to get to power is to cut their way to the top and to play his game.

That's the point of the entire series: Two people wanting to effect change but with two completely opposite and different methods.

It can be obtained from watching the series that the governor-generals hold complete autonomy for administrating their areas by Clovis' approach of allowing zaibatsus to remain. At the very least, Suzaku can influence good government for the Elevens through Euphemia and Cornelia (if he climbs enough) even if the two never become Empresses.

This is a good point, but it seems to me that all Suzaku's and Lulu's thought is focussed not just on Japan but on Britannia as a whole. If gg's translation is accurate to the original in this sense, the first Suzaku-Zero dialogue confirms this; Zero talks in terms of "changing the world" and "Britannia is a rotten country you cannot use" and Suzaku says "I will make Britannia into a good country from inside out". I think both of their objectives are the Empire as a whole.

Umm, again... this royal killing thing is more of Lulu's approach, if you ask me. Not Suzaku's.

See above, I was referring to his possible options other than managing to talk them into it, which is rather unlikely given what we've seen so far. I guess he could pull a Nanoha and use his devilish tools to make them listen (nothing says love and friendship like a magical nuke to the face, and hey, he could even be the White Devil) but given the tone of the series i doubt it :P

Did you even see the aerial view of the battlefield? Cornelia surrounded the WHOLE mountain in that to make escape even possible for Order and JLF troopers was contingent on breaking the military formation of Cornelia's cordon.

I guess you haven't watched the aftermath as well, right? The JLF main forces were routed and many were captured. Toudou lost all his Burai Kais. The Order was forced to retreat BECAUSE they couldn't possibly win against Cornelia's army once it regrouped after the initial shock the landslide caused.

Did you even understand what Lulu was aiming for? It wasn't the military annihilation of the Imperial Army because he lacked the capacity to do so. He was aiming for the head of the army, Governor-General Cornelia. If he took Cornelia's head, then I could say that the Order and the JLF would've won due to the chaos Cornelia's demise could cause to her troops.

But she wasn't taken thanks to Suzaku, which ultimately led to the military victory that I explained up a post. It was even bluntly said that they won the battle militarily in the Britannian meeting, while the Kyoto people said that they lost heavily.

I see what you mean here; I didn't pay close enough attention to the screen I think. I'd estimate their losses at 25% or so upon review.

This is my counter to a very long history lesson that you gave me.

In their system, noble families and royal successors still exist. If even a people like the Ashfords and Euphemia exist, then the possibility of moderates existing in high positions of said military dictatorship is quite high.

Also, I might add that while it seems that the Emperor has full sovereignty over the Empire, you could obtain from the series itself that each and every area are autonomously controlled and administrated by their respective governor-generals. If change can be achieved for each region slowly while Suzaku keeps proving his worth not only to Cornelia and Euphemia, but to all Britannian royalty, then his dreams of achieving what seemed to be a far off goal isn't as pathetic as people would think.

P.S. I'm finished with my replies. Even added the RECENT reply even after pleading to NOT reply before I was completely finished. Thanks to those who did allow me to finish first.

This would only work if people like Cornelia and Euphemia, assuming Cornelia is actually warming to Suzaku (which I think she is) are in the majority. Of the royals we've seen so far, we have two assholes, one who's actually quite like Lulu so who I classify as marginally evil/probably good at heart and one Lacus Clyne. We have the 2nd Prince Schneizel yet to show, so he's an unknown quantity. The general character of the royals, then, is an unknown. However, recall the reaction of the aristocrats in the Imperial court when chibi-Lulu went storming up to confront his father: they realized he had lost all position, that he had lost all chance of significance, and said words to that effect (i don't actually have the episode on hand so I can't pull up the specific dialogue but it was in that general direction). Now, if this were a "proper" family, the death of the mother would not mean so very much; however, the loss of his power means someone was there to usurp it. Now that Lulu no longer has the Ashford/Lamperouge household to be his backing, he can no longer participate in the cut-throat court. This, of course, is speculation, but I think it's damn solid speculation based on what we've seen so far :P

Selic

2007-01-13, 00:30

coefficient

2007-01-13, 00:36

The main reason people don't say much about Lelouch killing people is because he doesn't deny it. Suzaku, on the other hand, denounces injustice yet goes around killing people who probably have families and loved ones, though certainly less than Lelouch so far, but his attitude is certainly enough to piss a lot of other people off.

It would be more tolerable if he didn't actively aid in the oppression of the Numbers and, indeed, in many cases their actual murder. Remember that in the first great battle he fought in he actively aided the forces liquidating the Shinjuku ghetto. If his plan were workable it -might- be passable (I don't think so, others might argue otherwise); but since his plan is quite unfeasible given that he has managed to convert one person who might be in power some day and possibly one other person who really doesn't give a damn about killing civilians his actions become unjustifiable and worthy of derision.

Selic

2007-01-13, 00:44

My main grudge against Suzaku stems primarily from what he said to Lelouch after the Black Knights were unveiled. It's one thing to leave rescuing hostages and whatnot to the authorities, but it's another to let the incompetant authorities (At least in that situation) handle a crisis which it clearly wouldn't have handled well.

Suzaku's excuse? "They're shitty NOW, but it's fine if they get better, right?"

What about the people who DIE because of their incompetance/ways until they get better? Suzaku clearly dislikes Zero's needless bloodshed, but it's obvious he knows that people will die until he can get the Empire to reform. The sheer hypocrisy of his beliefs really gets at me.

Santa Claus

2007-01-13, 00:52

Originally Posted by Nanaya
Impossible is only a word the weak-willed use when things get hard.

Nope. It’s impossible for me to fly like Superman. But I’ll concede that Suzaku’s methods have the possibility of succeeding, however unlikely. So OK: it’s not impossible. It’s improbable. Extremely improbable, IMO.

Well, both Suzaku and Lulu are morally grey characters.

Understand that the Lancelot is Suzaku's PD, as well Euphemia and Cornelia I suppose.

Well yeah, that’s pretty much what I said/implied.

He's not in a position to do anything yet. So you can't really blame him. He wasn't given a Geas to make things easier for his climb now, right?

And? He would never have been in a position to do anything, if he had gone with his original ‘plan,’ and Zero wasn’t around. That’s the problem I have with him. More on this later.

Like what the series is showing us, Suzaku's fate is intertwined with Lulu's. I'm not really sure if that should be enough to just wail on the guy. Even if he didn't have Zero to confront, there are other insurgent groups in the area to fight for him. It'd take longer for Suzaku to achieve his goal, but that would also apply for Lulu had the man never gotten his Geass.

I’m wailing on his plan, not the man himself.

First of all, the Lancelot would likely not be used at all. This is just fanciful imagining, of course, but let’s consider the facts:

1) Clovis was on track to annihilate Ougi’s group.
2) Cornelia was on track to annihilate all groups.
3) Clovis didn’t want to use the Lancelot until almost his entire assault force was wiped out. If he does, he’s showing the Emperor not only how incompetent he himself is, but also how resourceful and useful Schniezel is. If I didn’t know better, I’d have thought this was Schniezel’s plan to discredit both Clovis and Cornelia: after all, what better way to show how weak the two are than to have them saved by an Eleven?
4) Cornelia didn’t want to use the Lancelot initially, either.

The only possible argument I see here is the fact that Clovis was not half the general his sister was, and thus he’d run into trouble with the JLF. More to the point, I believe it’s most likely that without the Lancelot, Suzaku might never have achieved a single thing.

I happen to think Lulu’s a bloody twit. However, the topic is: Do the Ends Justify the Means. I chose to focus my comparison on the Means both characters uses. I believe Lulu’s has a much higher chance of success than Suzaku’s.

Umm, how many times should Lulu be dead or captured by now if it weren't for his C.C. PD?

Are you counting only the times C.C. shows up, or are you including the times he places a Geas on people?

So? If a Number proves himself valuable in a government that values strength above all (even prejudice), then isn't that what exactly what Suzaku's aiming for?

The Numbers system is a very practical and logical way of creating administrative areas where assimilation of peoples into the the empire can take place. People will never be fully assimilated as long as they have their silly culture, identity and pride. Once these things are completely crushed, assimilation is made easier. Another logical way to create a united Imperial front.

OK. Well, it takes time – a LOT of time – to fully assimilate a people. Let’s not forget: the Japanese have a different skin tone, different culture, different everything. And while the Numbers system looks good on paper, in practice it becomes a convenient excuse for Britannians to look down on conquered peoples. After all, they’re not even a race anymore: just a number.

Cornelia is impressed by Suzaku enough to put him in her guard unit. She's way higher in rank than that superior you're talking about, who is already dead by the way.

Also, once an area is designated as a battlefield, everyone on the area becomes a combatant. It doesn't matter if that is an elderly person, woman, or, child. Why would soldiers make themselves any less effective in combat with things like mercy when mercy and kindness got carefree soldiers killed Vietnam and Afghanistan just because their opponents were women and children.

…

mm... so would that mean that the rest of the Britannians aren't all sheltered?

This is just another blanket approach to label people as evil. Just like how the American WW2 phrase "The only good Jap is a dead Jap." was coined. That is the kind of thinking that Suzaku wants to defeat.

A question: is Cornelia placing the Lancelot in her guard unit, or Suzaku? She can’t strip him of his mech, remember. If Schniezel decided to award the Lancelot to another pilot, one has to wonder whether Suzaku will keep his position for long.

And yes, his superior is dead. Killed by Lulu. Does it seem likely to you that, had he not been offed, he’d have ever recognized Suzaku? He’s obviously racist: he calls them beasts, for crying out loud. And racists aren’t easily swayed by pretty words and actions.

Britannia seems, first and foremost, to be a military dictatorship. It moves according to the will of a man who obviously believes in the tenets of Social Darwinism. A number designation is the signifier of a defeated nation – a country full of weaklings, in other words. Perhaps even genetically inferior, to the Purist. After all they had the sakuradite, but didn’t develop the Frames that won the war so easily.

And I commend Suzaku for his efforts. But I can’t help but add that it must be lovely to have absolutely everything magically going your way.

Well, Suzaku hasn't been taken down yet so that parallel isn't even parallel yet. If he fails, then you could brand that on him, but as of yet, he hasn't let up for the moment.

The parallel I’m referring to is the fact that both have arguably the same beliefs and are in the same initial situation. Stilicho is half barbarian, and had to work his way up the military ladder in Rome. He makes good progress, but then again he’s still half Roman – not pure Barbarian. Plus, he has a desperate Emperor on his side. And he’s still killed, despite being the only thing standing between the Western Empire and a good sacking. And despite his incredible prowess in war, the foederati are still reviled.

Well, the thing is, Suzaku has already gained Cornelia's trust so trying to backtrack is useless argument and even baseless.

I’m not backtracking, since my whole stance is Suzaku’s plan is unworkable in the absence of Zero. As I’ve said before, without the bogeyman of Zero creeping under the Britannians’ beds, he’d never have been in a position to gain anyone’s trust. Unless he comes out and says that this was all part of his calculations, I’m not going to place much stock on his initial plan.

Also, if I were in the middle of a battle, I'd shoot soldiers who weren't able to follow orders well. Why the brutal treatment? Because if soldiers don't follow as told, more of Cornelia's troops could've been put in harm's way. It is only logical military thinking. Being in the military isn't a charity organization. You're there to win with as little losses on your side while obliterating the other.

Maybe I’m not making myself clear. I couldn’t care less that Cornelia kills soldiers who can’t follow orders. I also don’t care about the collateral damage. All I’m saying is, Suzaku is trying to show Britannians that, as a HB, he can still follow orders as a member of the military. That’s a little strange: he is in effect showing that HBs can follow orders in the military, when all soldiers are expected to follow orders anyway. It’s his job, nationality notwithstanding. His plan seems to be to show that HBs can also do a job as well as any Britannian. OK…but let’s see... insubordination leads to death, so they better follow their orders to the letter, anyway.

You may not buy it but that's what the guy believes in. His is the harder path to take and so many people will find it easier to abandon any faith in Suzaku.

Also, there is a distinct difference between Hitler's armies and Britannia: one of them is out to cleanse the world of "subhumans", while one of them is out to conquer the world and subdue its peoples under the rule of one flag by the strong.

Hence, the prospects of making something happen is greater in the Britannian Empire than in Hitler's Reich.

He can believe in it all he wants. His is undeniably the harder path, as he’s trying to change a rigid social structure, not collapse it. Doesn’t make it any more believable.

The comparison actually makes sense, but I won’t bother explaining since it’s a potentially incendiary topic. For a better comparison, how about the Native Americans and Colonials? Or any of the ones suggested by the poster, coefficient, up above.

Or, for slightly more peaceful comparisons: let's take the Suffrage and the Civil Rights Movements. how long did it take for equality to take root, in a democratic nation? In the US, officials are elected by the people: thus, they have a vested interest in promoting whatever is popular at the moment. This is not the case for the Empire. The Emperor could care less what commoners think and want. He probably doesn't care much about the nobility, either.

Originally posted by Imperial

Wow just wow, only a few people actually understand the things behind some of the characters.

Let's also not forget that the Lancelot was constructed under the 2nd Imperial Prince. Yet, the Prince ALLOWED a number, whose not even suppose to pilot a KF, to pilot it despite the opposition of most of the Britannian officers. As Euphie's general stated, not even they can shove Suzuka off the board. When Cornelia first arrived she promoted Suzuka to Warrent Officer. And now he stands for another promotion. I would say he is literally a hero for HB's as it shows them that even they can rise to the top in the Britannian Empire. Cornelia stated firmly that she intends to win without numbers but we can see now that has changed. So yes he is changing the system and how people view HB's. Since Euphie shares his views she too will fight for change.

I'm surprised that people critize Suzkua for killing japanese soldiers, who are otherwise enemy combatants, while no one says a peep about Lelouch mudering japanese soldiers (Who otherwise are not his enemy) and killing civilians.

First of all, Code Geass is hardly Shakespeare. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar: it’s painfully obvious what Suzaku wants, as well as how he plans to go about achieving it. He monologues on the subject practically every time he meets someone willing to listen. And let’s be honest: sure, Suzaku is a great HB. All HB should look up to him. Why, they can get where he is today, if they all get their hands on Frames that are generations ahead of anything the military and the resistances can field, and if they have connections with an influential Imperial Princess.

Firstly, we don’t know why Schniezel allows an injured Eleven to pilot his new mech. But here’s my crackpot theory for you:

The Emperor is a firm believer in social Darwinism. The strong dominate the weak. Always. Such is nature, and what is good for nature is good enough for him.

Now imagine the Second Prince. A bright enough man, if what the characters say can be believed. Why does he allow an Eleven to pilot the newest Frame?

Simple. Whatever honors an Eleven can gain is negated by the fact that he will always be a Number. A Britannian pilot can complicate things and actually rise to a position in which he can be a threat. What can an Eleven do, in the current political climate?

Now let’s consider Clovis and Cornelia, who are arguably his competitors. What does it tell the Emperor if these two need to rely on an Eleven – a son of a defeated nation, a Number – to win their battles for them? It not only makes them look weak and stupid, it makes Schniezel look strong for building the Lancelot and fielding it.

And before anyone says anything: even without the Geas ability, Lulu could have done damage to the Empire. He's a bloody prince, even if disinherited. If anything, that just makes him more desireable as a tool. With a court as cutthroat as the Empire's seems to be, I can only assume there are some families that might want to use an exiled prince as a figurehead once the current emperor dies. The only reason he can't/won't is that his sister likely would not have survived the attempt. However, this is all conjecture.

Nanaya

2007-01-13, 00:53

*Sigh* The problem, from the start, is not “trust”. What the Britannains feel about the Numbers, are what ppl think about creatures, or tool.
Do you trust your dog (that he is loyal) ? Do you trust your machine (that it is working) ? Do you trust your money (that it can buy food) ? Then do you think they are equal to you ?

*double sigh* The Numbers may be treated like dogs now, but UNLIKE a dog, a Number can prove that he is a Britannian's equal or better. Why? Because they are human, first and foremost. They HAVE the capacity to prove themselves as equals, UNLIKE dogs and machine tools.

If you still don't understand this, then you will never understand that people can change for the better.

If so, you have already completely denied the Britannians any chance for reform. If this principle applies in your real life, then that means that you also don't expect people to change if you re-educate them about the better things about compromise and cooperation rather than pure violence.

A very close-minded principle that is the cause of most wars in our world or even the Geass world.

“Not just”, but very important reason. Because she was a commoner, and the family supporting her went down, that she was unpowerful and can be killed. And you see the emperor’s attitude ? Like he knew that before.

No. The Emperor's reason for not protecting his wife was that he had no use for the weak. That is why he acts like a jerk. HE HAS NO USE FOR WEAK PEOPLE.

Suzaku is, in all ways, not as important, not as powerful as the empress. And “She got killed to make it easier for certain people to climb up the succession ladder” so if Suzaku wants a fall down of the structure, hundreds of years developed by Darwin’s crazy fans, what will happen to him ?

Ehh? You don't have to be as important as an Empress to create change. You only have to be there to make sure change occurs. Also, Suzaku isn't looking to destroy the succession system exactly. What he wants is to change the system in order to make the Elevens live a better life. You don't necessarily need to destroy the succession system for that, especially since he probably has the backing of the 2nd, 3rd, and the 6th in line to the throne. Quite high in the ranks of royalty if you ask me.

Cornelia is not as powerful as you think. Moreover, if she knows about that, what she does first is to prevent Euphie, even by arresting and bringing her to a very far place.

Why would she get Euphemia arrested? Suzaku doesn't even need Euphemia for advancing the Elevens' cause if he gets Cornelia to put him in her favor. Remember that Cornelia is the Governor General of Area 11. Even at the very least, even if he can't help all Numbers, the Elevens may be helped. All that Suzaku has to do is to play his cards right.

Now I know why you support Suzaku. Because you support the Empire’s ideal. I have to declare that not all ppl, except you, the Britainian and a few others, think that “everyone is classified whether they are useful or not”. And besides, I dun think that respect and trust’s role is just to prove usefulness.

Umm, I only said the reality of this world. Everyone are tools for other people. Respect and trust is gained by people who prove themselves most useful. That is the TRUTH of this world (Real or Geass).

However, the Empire's ideal stands along the lines of the "strong devouring the weak", not the usefulness of people as tools.

So I don't get where you can just accuse me of supporting the Empire's "survival of the fittest" philosophy. What I said was a realistic approach to how people go around this world.

To my family and friends, I never consider whether they are useful or not. In my job, I still “use” those people who I don’t love, respect or trust, just because I think they are “useful” in some way. We cooperate because of our benefits, but if they intend to harm me, I won’t be kind to them. In Britanians’ mind, Suzaku is just like, no, even lower than these people to me, so if he goes against their system, *bang bang bang* he is dead

Heh, I sense hypocrisy in this entire paragraph. Isn't what your spouting just a prettied up version of what I said, while hiding the truth that you still use people to cooperate with you. And at the same breath, you will abandon those who are useless to you.

Yes, hypocrisy, indeed.

What can he be beside a Number pilot ? The husband of a princess, whose marriage will stop her from being a candidate to the throne ? He do not have brain/tactics to be a general. The only thing that may work is for him to gain some power by being the husband/very close subordinate of the governer (Euphie), provided that there are no interfere from other nobles. Though this is imposible in real life, it may happen in anime, but just because of Zero’s act.

A trusted general can become influential to the people who appoint them on such ranks.

If Suzaku gains Cornelia, and even the 2nd Prince's (even the Emperor's), utmost trust, then he can start influencing changes in the government with his sense of justice for equality of all and suppression of distrust/discrimination. This isn't as impossible as it sounds and this happens quite frequently in monarchies in our history.

OK. As you say so…

If you want to change the Nazis from inside, you will joined their army ? As a solder, you will try not to harm civilians, but (1) just killing the French, British, Russian, American… solders, who you think still allow chaos to cover the land of its invaded countries ? and (2) “not directly” but just clear the path for the army to kill civilians as you have defeated all the resisters (if you think they aren’t massacres, remember ep 1, 2, 3)

And you believe you are as white and pure as an angel ? You are not angry at your Nazis and not trying to prevent those massacres at all but you still be able to critize those resistance troops who kill your solders and your lords ? If you attack them, and they have to use some method to counterattack which will involve innocent civilians -yes they will feel regretful, and the victims can critize them- but do you have the right to do be angry with them ?

This is a flawed argument since I have already said in a previous post that Nazi Germany is distinctly different from the Britannian Empire where one side wants to cleanse the world of "subhumans", while the other one wants to rule the world under a single banner by the strong.

The Nazis would've never let me in their army had that happened and I'd probably be in a concentration camp.

To change a system, one condition must be set: A person must be able to enter said system to change things.

The Britannian Imperial Army has this condition for Numbers.

The Nazis do not, especially since their main principle is for mass murder and annihilation.

The Britannian Army kills and massacres people for military objectives, not for overglorified nonsense ideologies. They won't kill you if killing won't bring any victory to them.

Nazis just killed.

If you think peace is that much important, tell your Gov and ppl to surrender whenever another country wants to invade your own. And if the invaders feel like killing your people, prevent them from resist. And if they still resist, kill them as they bring chaos to that peaceful colony.

Heh. Another baseless argument for this thread.

Area 11 has already been a colony for 7 years running. At this time, we already know that, at the very least, there has already been 7 more areas overrun by the Imperials. (Area 18 = Mideast?)

Fighting invaders is something that cannot be avoided. In fact, I encourage battling to the death so the only the victors will be left behind and all semblance of the old rule will have disappeared. Makes for easier assimilation.

But when a country has already been beaten, and when said invaders are trying to improve the economy of said conquered region, further resistance is only countering any more development which can help the conquered peoples.

The war already ended 7 years ago with a resounding Britannian victory. Is there even any more need to further distrust and discord when the fruits of progress can be obtained by everyone in exchange for the loss of silly national pride?

coefficient

2007-01-13, 01:07

But when a country has already been beaten, and when said invaders are trying to improve the economy of said conquered region, further resistance is only countering any more development which can help the conquered peoples.

The war already ended 7 years ago with a resounding Britannian victory. Is there even any more need to further distrust and discord when the fruits of progress can be obtained by everyone in exchange for the loss of silly national pride?

National pride? More like personal dignity. Elevens who do not gain Britannian citizenship are forced to live in abject squalor amidst tottering ruins that should rightfully be condemned; Elevens who do gain Britannian citizenship are subject to constant discrimination, racism and humiliation. In their own country.

On the topic of progress: Yes, infrastructure and such are improved, but to whose benefit? Historically this was always to the benefit of the local transplanted oligarchy from the homeland and perhaps the local chieftain or emir or raja. Overall the lives of ordinary Japanese are -much- worse off under the Britannian regime than under the previous government, and they aren't seriously safer either (the Chinese federation is a world power, remember, and they're just across the Sea of Japan). I figure the people reaping the benefits of "progress" are the Britannian East India Company, Sakuradite Extraction Division or whoever as well as the 12 dudes of the local quisling committie that is apparently the intermediary between the servile Eleven population and the conquerors. Conquest very rarely works to the benefit of the conquered; the only example I can think of is maybe the Italians under Rome because they became the heartland of a vast empire, and eventually citizenship was extended to them (but not for many generations to come).

In summation: though the "economy" may be better, little of that prosperity reaches the ordinary Japanese, and likely would not due to the inherent racism of the administration, the Britannian outlook, etc. The only Elevens likely to benefit from the increased Sakuradite production or whatever are the wealthy merchant families who have become Britannian citizens. For the rest of the country, it's lose your dignity to work as a hot dog seller in the walled-off Britannian districts or live in a bunch of ruins. This is not progress.

To make yet another historical comparison, think China under the humiliating treaties with Europe. They forced open the ports of China and allowed free trade therein; this is arguably a good thing economically, but the only people benefiting were the transplanted European merchant families and Chinese merchant oligarchs, though I suppose it guaranteed the Chinese stoner community a cheap source of Opium. Within those European protectorates the natives were subject to constant racism (example: signs on restaurants saying "no dogs or chinese allowed"), etc. The analogy is not perfect but I think it fits this example.

Nanaya

2007-01-13, 01:45

Yes, there were enlightened despots, liberal absolute monarchs who gave their citizens freedoms without having a constitution limit their powers to force them to give those freedoms. This is one of the great benefits of the institution of monarchy, to my way of thinking, though the institution's negatives outweigh the positive.

Negative? Like lack of freedom for the masses? Freedoms are granted only to those who have the knowledge and responsibility to use them. Which is why some democracies tend to become brainless mob rules in third world nations. If a monarchy remained enlightened (not liberal so much as progressive), people under their rule will prosper. The only negative I can truly see is that monarchies require strong leaders or they fall. But being enlightened doesn't mean you're weak.

However, the point remains that the ascent of a liberal monarch who is not willing to bump off his (or her) enemies is only possible in a strictly hereditary context. Britannia, as was established early on in the series (the speech episode, I think) is not a strictly hereditary monarchy; rather, the kids battle it out and the strongest takes the throne. In this context it is impossible for a pacifist king or queen like Euphie or converted-Cornelia to ascend to the throne, as they will simply be killed by their less scrupulous siblings. You called this defeatist rhetoric; in this case, by what mechanism does our theoretical queenmaker Suzaku enact reform? The only possible method I can think of (you may be able to think of a different one) is him gaining charisma-Geass and talking all the various petty princelings into believing in his pacifist vision. But as every good political theorist knows, an anarchic regime is only peaceful in the absence of predators. When one shows up, everything goes to hell.

Like I said before, the Empire is divided into autonomous regions by taking what Clovis did for Area 11's economy as a hint. Even if Suzaku cannot make a pacifist king, all he needs is to make the life of Elevens better through reform and cooperation once he obtains their ears.

Suzaku doesn't need to be a king maker. He just has to have connections to be able to push the changes that he wants.

And I don't really think that the Empire is an anarchic regime. It's power mainly lies in the one man. And just because a predator shows up, that doesn't mean that the ruler of said regime isn't strong enough to defeat the new threat easily. Quite a pessimistic view you have there if you ask me, as theorists are theorists after all. Action is what moves this world, not theories.

Theoretical history :P It's a truism, though, that those in power generally disapprove of things that will lessen their power, and allowing greater colonial independence will threaten those with interests in the region, economic or political. We haven't seen much of the ruling class of Britannia, but keeping in mind the general philosophy which drives the Empire, I can't imagine their ruling class being a bunch of teddy bears.

Independence ISN'T what Suzaku's trying to go for. What he wants is to change the system so the cycle of distrust and discrimination will stop. What he works for is an Area 11 that has Elevens that are able to live like humans again.

And yes, most likely, most of the people of the Britannian ruling class aren't teddy bears, but Zero and the people from Kyoto aren't teddy bears either.

The Earl B. Wexfordshire think is just a nod to the general order of business in aristocracies. Anything Suzaku does to shake the status quo will threaten those that benefit from it; those that are idealists may accept their loss of power or even pledge their assistance - several nobles did join up in the French Revolution, after all - but ultimately all it takes is a conspiracy of a few to assassinate him, and given the general tendency of aristocracies to engage in politics-by-knife (see the late Roman Republic for the best examples of this; it is the best image of the aristocratic republic gone bad, though you'd find the same thing going on in Venice or any other number of places) and the general ideology which drives Britannian political legitimacy and conquest (we kill off the weak people so we become stronger) and Suzaku getting bumped off by a couple of jealous nobles is a very likely thing. Plot armour may protect him, but remember that we're talking about the ethics of his position here. It'd be nice if he could sit down with the House of Lords or whatever and talk them into his way of thinking over a cup of tea, but it's not gonna happen if the writers decide not to cloak the guy in plot armour, so to attempt to justify supporting a state that murders innocents intentionally (as opposed to unintentionally in Lulu's case, and even then there were warnings pre-battle I think on the part of the Britannians) is a hypocritical and unethical position.

Umm, we aren't in a point were we can talk about Suzaku getting rubbed off yet. He hasn't climbed that high yet. As I already said, just because your path is fraught with dangers doesn't mean you just have to give up.

Defeatist attitudes really make me feel sour, so sorry.

But murder in the middle of the battlefield does not occur, for innocents do not exist in a battle zone. To think that innocents exist in a battlefield will cost a soldier their lives. I am not sugarcoating this truth for your sake.

My point was that it's the only possible way of putting his people into power, because we both agree that he's never becoming Emperor so the only way for him to effect change is to have influence with the people holding the highest offices. He's not gonna sway Big Daddy Britannia, I think we both agree, and he's won over Euphie and maybe Cornelia in the future. Now, as it stands, there are two possibilities:

1) The state, legally if not ideologically, runs on a strictly hereditary basis; that said, neither Corelia nor Euhpemia are the heirs apparent. We don't know much about Britannian inheritance law, but Cornelia is the second princess, so she's likely not the crown princess. Even if the crown ran under equal primogeniture, which traditionally in England it did not (though women could inherit in the absence of any male contenders) she'd have to somehow deal with the problem of the people ahead of her in the line of succession. Now, she can either talk them into giving up their claim (yeah right) or she can arrange an "accident". Those are the only two options in this case.

2) The second possibility is that Big Daddy Britannia himself names an heir, which I think is altogether more likely as from the way Lulu speaks it seems like it's a tradition for the heirs to infight and for the strongest to claim dominance. Now we all know what drives his thought - equality is evil, go evolution, yadda yadda. In this case Euphie or a converted-Corny haven't a chance in hell of getting named to the throne, unless they can manage to trick the old guy into naming them, which I doubt because he's a smart guy. He's Lulu's dad, after all. :p In this case the only way to get to power is to cut their way to the top and to play his game.

From now on, I WON'T reply to things that can happen in the plot as they look like summaries and spoilers and may make people feel like we're ruining their story for them. You may dream of what may happen, but that won't make it any more real until they DO happen.

Especially since not a lot of people reply to everything I say, doing the same for everyone is quite fair, ne?

This is a good point, but it seems to me that all Suzaku's and Lulu's thought is focussed not just on Japan but on Britannia as a whole. If gg's translation is accurate to the original in this sense, the first Suzaku-Zero dialogue confirms this; Zero talks in terms of "changing the world" and "Britannia is a rotten country you cannot use" and Suzaku says "I will make Britannia into a good country from inside out". I think both of their objectives are the Empire as a whole.

Yeah, my point exactly.

See above, I was referring to his possible options other than managing to talk them into it, which is rather unlikely given what we've seen so far. I guess he could pull a Nanoha and use his devilish tools to make them listen (nothing says love and friendship like a magical nuke to the face, and hey, he could even be the White Devil) but given the tone of the series i doubt it :P

Maybe. I'm watching the series to find out.

I see what you mean here; I didn't pay close enough attention to the screen I think. I'd estimate their losses at 25% or so upon review.

And that probably wasn't even Cornelia's entire army.

This would only work if people like Cornelia and Euphemia, assuming Cornelia is actually warming to Suzaku (which I think she is) are in the majority. Of the royals we've seen so far, we have two assholes, one who's actually quite like Lulu so who I classify as marginally evil/probably good at heart and one Lacus Clyne. We have the 2nd Prince Schneizel yet to show, so he's an unknown quantity. The general character of the royals, then, is an unknown. However, recall the reaction of the aristocrats in the Imperial court when chibi-Lulu went storming up to confront his father: they realized he had lost all position, that he had lost all chance of significance, and said words to that effect (i don't actually have the episode on hand so I can't pull up the specific dialogue but it was in that general direction). Now, if this were a "proper" family, the death of the mother would not mean so very much; however, the loss of his power means someone was there to usurp it. Now that Lulu no longer has the Ashford/Lamperouge household to be his backing, he can no longer participate in the cut-throat court. This, of course, is speculation, but I think it's damn solid speculation based on what we've seen so far :P

Well, the aristocrats probably only care about power as you said. NOT if one person is either a Number or anything. If Suzaku becomes a very influential and useful Number, won't the aristocrats warm up to him as well to gain political position?

The main reason people don't say much about Lelouch killing people is because he doesn't deny it. Suzaku, on the other hand, denounces injustice yet goes around killing people who probably have families and loved ones, though certainly less than Lelouch so far, but his attitude is certainly enough to piss a lot of other people off.

Huh? Doesn't Lelouch denounce the injustice he calls his father while killing a lot of people as well, some of whom should be his allies? Don't the people that Lulu kill have families and loved ones of their own?

Suzaku just kills his enemies. He also denounces the injustices committed by others but as of now, his hands are tied. Until he can get where he wants to be on, he has no choice but to kill his enemies.

Both of them denounce each other's injustices while killing people. It's just that Lulu also kills those who should be his allies to make his plans work like they were nothing more than mere pawns.

It would be more tolerable if he didn't actively aid in the oppression of the Numbers and, indeed, in many cases their actual murder. Remember that in the first great battle he fought in he actively aided the forces liquidating the Shinjuku ghetto. If his plan were workable it -might- be passable (I don't think so, others might argue otherwise); but since his plan is quite unfeasible given that he has managed to convert one person who might be in power some day and possibly one other person who really doesn't give a damn about killing civilians his actions become unjustifiable and worthy of derision.

I have not seen Suzaku commit acts of oppression throughout the entire series. Not a single act. And killing enemy combatants isn't murder. It's called a soldier's job.

Suzaku is working through a framework. He can't just jump through and ask suddenly for what he wants.

My main grudge against Suzaku stems primarily from what he said to Lelouch after the Black Knights were unveiled. It's one thing to leave rescuing hostages and whatnot to the authorities, but it's another to let the incompetant authorities (At least in that situation) handle a crisis which it clearly wouldn't have handled well.

Suzaku's excuse? "They're shitty NOW, but it's fine if they get better, right?"

What about the people who DIE because of their incompetance/ways until they get better? Suzaku clearly dislikes Zero's needless bloodshed, but it's obvious he knows that people will die until he can get the Empire to reform. The sheer hypocrisy of his beliefs really gets at me.

No, people die in the current system because of the insurgency, rather than incompetence. If the insurgency disappeared, people won't die needlessly since the Empire only kills those that oppose their advance.

Just like what the woman said to a guerrila in the early eps: "It's your fault that this has happened to us.", before the guerrila said "Shut up!!!"

But it IS true that the shitty discrimination exists which makes the Numbers feel shitty as well. Suzaku is working to eliminate this discrimination by changing the government.

However, discrimination will not stop until Suzaku defeats the distrust that is sowed by the insurgency among the Britannian populace.

P.S. More replies coming

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2007-01-13, 01:52

However, discrimination will not stop until Suzaku defeats the distrust that is sowed by the insurgency among the Britannian populace.

...I don't know what to say as a reply.:confused:

You claim that the Britannians would trust the Numbers if only the insurgence were removed? What, other than the fact that Britannians have stolen their land, dug up their sacred mountain as a mine, bombed their cities into rubble and taken all their rights away?

Why WOULD any Britannians trust the Numbers, when the Numbers have every reason to hate them? The Britannians know they are in the wrong, and that's why they don't believe in justice. To believe in justice would be condemning themselves. Instead, it is official policy that "might makes right", as Euphie mentioned.. "We spilled blood to conquer them, so we have earned the right to rule over them".
(Note that Euphie doesn't really believe this... This is just standard mantra for Britannians to justify invading everyone they want.)

Selic

2007-01-13, 02:18

Huh? Doesn't Lelouch denounce the injustice he calls his father while killing a lot of people as well, some of whom should be his allies? Don't the people that Lulu kill have families and loved ones of their own?

Suzaku just kills his enemies. He also denounces the injustices committed by others but as of now, his hands are tied. Until he can get where he wants to be on, he has no choice but to kill his enemies.

Both of them denounce each other's injustices while killing people. It's just that Lulu also kills those who should be his allies to make his plans work like they were nothing more than mere pawns.

I mean in the sense that they both kill and denounce, but Suzaku behaves as if his killing people isn't wrong, or at the very least, LESS wrong than Zero's.

There's no reason the JLF SHOULD be his allies. There's no formal agreement between them and whatnot. There's nothing that binds them together aside from the whole "Enemy of my enemy is my ally", which is a bit of an iffy thing in the first place especially when it's between two groups of insurgents.

Though Zero blowing up the ship may not have been the most effective way of doing it, since there's probably countless other scenarios with different outcomes and whatnot, it served to be a good distraction. First it takes out the enemy's aquatic Knightmares and also messes up the Knightmares on the ground, giving enough time for Zero and crew to sail across and deploy.

Anyway, I'm going back to lurking. I hate these kind of arguments since it's more or less "X does y because of z" that goes back and forth.

Nanaya

2007-01-13, 02:45

Nope. It’s impossible for me to fly like Superman. But I’ll concede that Suzaku’s methods have the possibility of succeeding, however unlikely. So OK: it’s not impossible. It’s improbable. Extremely improbable, IMO.

Yes, unlikely. But that is the only way he knows that he can make a difference without getting other people involved if he commits rebellion. Unlike Lulu, everyone knows who Suzaku is. Suzaku risks a lot more, because not only does the hopes of better treatment of Honorary Britannians is a burden on him, the greater acceptance and trust of other Numbers apply for him as well.

Well yeah, that’s pretty much what I said/implied.

Which is why I agreed... is there a problem with agreeing?

And? He would never have been in a position to do anything, if he had gone with his original ‘plan,’ and Zero wasn’t around. That’s the problem I have with him. More on this later.

And? If the Geass wasn't around, Lelouch wouldn't have been able to be where he is right now in a matter of weeks. By the time, Lelouch reached where he is now without the Geas, he might've already been killed since he'd have no C.C. to save him anymore.

You're being too tough on Suzaku for his dependence intertwined fate with Zero, while you also seem to conveniently forget Lelouch's dependence on the Geas and C.C. to make his plans succeed as quickly as they have.

I’m wailing on his plan, not the man himself.

Sure doesn't sound like it.

First of all, the Lancelot would likely not be used at all. This is just fanciful imagining, of course, but let’s consider the facts:

1) Clovis was on track to annihilate Ougi’s group.
2) Cornelia was on track to annihilate all groups.
3) Clovis didn’t want to use the Lancelot until almost his entire assault force was wiped out. If he does, he’s showing the Emperor not only how incompetent he himself is, but also how resourceful and useful Schniezel is. If I didn’t know better, I’d have thought this was Schniezel’s plan to discredit both Clovis and Cornelia: after all, what better way to show how weak the two are than to have them saved by an Eleven?
4) Cornelia didn’t want to use the Lancelot initially, either.

The only possible argument I see here is the fact that Clovis was not half the general his sister was, and thus he’d run into trouble with the JLF. More to the point, I believe it’s most likely that without the Lancelot, Suzaku might never have achieved a single thing.

Yes. Isn't it obvious that Clovis doesn't have even half the brains of Cornelia in battle?

And also, without the Geas or C.C., Lulu might never have been able to achieve anything as well.

Trying to discredit the characters by using their plot devices is kind of... suck. If both of them didn't have any plot devices, this series would have ended in one episode.

I happen to think Lulu’s a bloody twit. However, the topic is: Do the Ends Justify the Means. I chose to focus my comparison on the Means both characters uses. I believe Lulu’s has a much higher chance of success than Suzaku’s.

It's not a matter of who has the higher chance to succeed that the topic asks. It's a matter of who is more righteous of these two gray characters.

(If you ask me, it's even more ridiculous to ask such a question, since right and wrong changes for every person since we all live in a gray world.)

Are you counting only the times C.C. shows up, or are you including the times he places a Geas on people?

Well, do we need to count them? What I wanted to imply is that blaming a character's development through their plot devices is a basically useless argument. Both use a lot of plot devices to get their plans saved that the two are in a friggin' deadlock as of now.

OK. Well, it takes time – a LOT of time – to fully assimilate a people. Let’s not forget: the Japanese have a different skin tone, different culture, different everything. And while the Numbers system looks good on paper, in practice it becomes a convenient excuse for Britannians to look down on conquered peoples. After all, they’re not even a race anymore: just a number.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS!?! That is what Suzaku wants to friggin' change! He wants to defeat this discrimination by replacing it with trust and respect.

Just because you're different one day doesn't mean you can't change the next. That is what assimilation is for. And the kind of assimilation that Suzaku wants is one where all his fellow Elevens can be treated as equals and partners in the Empire that he is serving now.

A question: is Cornelia placing the Lancelot in her guard unit, or Suzaku? She can’t strip him of his mech, remember. If Schniezel decided to award the Lancelot to another pilot, one has to wonder whether Suzaku will keep his position for long.

Well, if my reading of Cornelia's personality is correct, she places Suzaku in her unit out of gratitude. Though Cornelia shows that she is a brutal military commander, when she was about to get nabbed at Narita, she showed that she also has pride and honor as an Imperial Princess. She has honor, for short.

And yes, his superior is dead. Killed by Lulu. Does it seem likely to you that, had he not been offed, he’d have ever recognized Suzaku? He’s obviously racist: he calls them beasts, for crying out loud. And racists aren’t easily swayed by pretty words and actions.

Umm... so talking about a dead guy would do what? Dead people can't change, that much I can say.

Britannia seems, first and foremost, to be a military dictatorship. It moves according to the will of a man who obviously believes in the tenets of Social Darwinism. A number designation is the signifier of a defeated nation – a country full of weaklings, in other words. Perhaps even genetically inferior, to the Purist. After all they had the sakuradite, but didn’t develop the Frames that won the war so easily.

But hey, if that man OBVIOUSLY believes in Social Darwinism, if Suzaku proves the worth of being a Number doesn't necessarily mean weakling, won't that said man also respect Suzaku. And to gain the Emperor's respect can make it look like a sign of new times, right? Besides, I've never even heard anything that says the Emperor is Purist. Well, even Cornelia had semi-Purist ideals before she was saved by Suzaku, right?

And I commend Suzaku for his efforts. But I can’t help but add that it must be lovely to have absolutely everything magically going your way.

Lol, same with Lulu. Very lovely, indeed.

The parallel I’m referring to is the fact that both have arguably the same beliefs and are in the same initial situation. Stilicho is half barbarian, and had to work his way up the military ladder in Rome. He makes good progress, but then again he’s still half Roman – not pure Barbarian. Plus, he has a desperate Emperor on his side. And he’s still killed, despite being the only thing standing between the Western Empire and a good sacking. And despite his incredible prowess in war, the foederati are still reviled.

Well, please stick that discussion again when Suzaku gets killed. Then, I will yield.

I’m not backtracking, since my whole stance is Suzaku’s plan is unworkable in the absence of Zero. As I’ve said before, without the bogeyman of Zero creeping under the Britannians’ beds, he’d never have been in a position to gain anyone’s trust. Unless he comes out and says that this was all part of his calculations, I’m not going to place much stock on his initial plan.

He's a soldier. If he proves himself in the many other wars that the Empire is in right now, then, even without a Zero, he would have climbed of his own free will. And who's to say that even without Zero, he wouldn't have gotten obtained the Lancelot just through Lloyd's search for a good pilot?

Maybe I’m not making myself clear. I couldn’t care less that Cornelia kills soldiers who can’t follow orders. I also don’t care about the collateral damage. All I’m saying is, Suzaku is trying to show Britannians that, as a HB, he can still follow orders as a member of the military. That’s a little strange: he is in effect showing that HBs can follow orders in the military, when all soldiers are expected to follow orders anyway. It’s his job, nationality notwithstanding. His plan seems to be to show that HBs can also do a job as well as any Britannian. OK…but let’s see... insubordination leads to death, so they better follow their orders to the letter, anyway.

Well, isn't following orders how people advance in real life as well (apart from killing your masters and stealing their wealth)? Don't tell me you didn't know that.

He can believe in it all he wants. His is undeniably the harder path, as he’s trying to change a rigid social structure, not collapse it. Doesn’t make it any more believable.

And having an eye that controls people is?

Understand that based on how Suzaku is built as an HB, that is the only thing he can do.

The comparison actually makes sense, but I won’t bother explaining since it’s a potentially incendiary topic. For a better comparison, how about the Native Americans and Colonials? Or any of the ones suggested by the poster, coefficient, up above.

Umm... you didn't even understand the distinct difference that I gave...

As I have posted somewhere before, there must be a condition to be able to make changes in the system. You must be able to get in it. The Indian-Colonial thing had no room for the Natives to get in. Hence, the reservations.

Britannia, however, has room where a person can enter the government to make changes. A very distinct difference.

Or, for slightly more peaceful comparisons: let's take the Suffrage and the Civil Rights Movements. how long did it take for equality to take root, in a democratic nation? In the US, officials are elected by the people: thus, they have a vested interest in promoting whatever is popular at the moment. This is not the case for the Empire. The Emperor could care less what commoners think and want. He probably doesn't care much about the nobility, either.

Didn't I say acceptance is slow to come? Or, do you just hate reading what I post?

First of all, Code Geass is hardly Shakespeare. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar: it’s painfully obvious what Suzaku wants, as well as how he plans to go about achieving it. He monologues on the subject practically every time he meets someone willing to listen. And let’s be honest: sure, Suzaku is a great HB. All HB should look up to him. Why, they can get where he is today, if they all get their hands on Frames that are generations ahead of anything the military and the resistances can field, and if they have connections with an influential Imperial Princess.

We aren't told if other HBs are able to join the local government just as easily as they can the army. As such, the path to better government doesn't just lie on having a 7th gen Knightmare Frame that gets a person involved with an Imperial Princess. There must be others who think just like Suzaku who work to make Area 11 better without resorting to belligerency. I highly doubt that Suzaku's the only one who thinks that Elevens can't work hand in hand with the now incumbent powers that rule their nation. So making such a provoking remark isn't really useful for this argument with the sarcasm.

Also, I won't comment on crackpot theories anymore as my arms are writhing from responding to probably a dozen people.

And before anyone says anything: even without the Geas ability, Lulu could have done damage to the Empire. He's a bloody prince, even if disinherited. If anything, that just makes him more desireable as a tool. With a court as cutthroat as the Empire's seems to be, I can only assume there are some families that might want to use an exiled prince as a figurehead once the current emperor dies. The only reason he can't/won't is that his sister likely would not have survived the attempt. However, this is all conjecture.

Yes, conjecture indeed. What use is a disinherited prince if there is already another person that will take the crown. Even before being disinherited, Lulu was like 17th in succession to the throne...

... that's very far.

National pride? More like personal dignity. Elevens who do not gain Britannian citizenship are forced to live in abject squalor amidst tottering ruins that should rightfully be condemned; Elevens who do gain Britannian citizenship are subject to constant discrimination, racism and humiliation. In their own country.

On the topic of progress: Yes, infrastructure and such are improved, but to whose benefit? Historically this was always to the benefit of the local transplanted oligarchy from the homeland and perhaps the local chieftain or emir or raja. Overall the lives of ordinary Japanese are -much- worse off under the Britannian regime than under the previous government, and they aren't seriously safer either (the Chinese federation is a world power, remember, and they're just across the Sea of Japan). I figure the people reaping the benefits of "progress" are the Britannian East India Company, Sakuradite Extraction Division or whoever as well as the 12 dudes of the local quisling committie that is apparently the intermediary between the servile Eleven population and the conquerors. Conquest very rarely works to the benefit of the conquered; the only example I can think of is maybe the Italians under Rome because they became the heartland of a vast empire, and eventually citizenship was extended to them (but not for many generations to come).

In summation: though the "economy" may be better, little of that prosperity reaches the ordinary Japanese, and likely would not due to the inherent racism of the administration, the Britannian outlook, etc. The only Elevens likely to benefit from the increased Sakuradite production or whatever are the wealthy merchant families who have become Britannian citizens. For the rest of the country, it's lose your dignity to work as a hot dog seller in the walled-off Britannian districts or live in a bunch of ruins. This is not progress.

To make yet another historical comparison, think China under the humiliating treaties with Europe. They forced open the ports of China and allowed free trade therein; this is arguably a good thing economically, but the only people benefiting were the transplanted European merchant families and Chinese merchant oligarchs, though I suppose it guaranteed the Chinese stoner community a cheap source of Opium. Within those European protectorates the natives were subject to constant racism (example: signs on restaurants saying "no dogs or chinese allowed"), etc. The analogy is not perfect but I think it fits this example.

I not only said economy, but also the development of the conquered peoples.

Suzaku is fighting for that to happen. But more distrust is sowed in the hearts of Britannians by the insurgents that do their best to aggravate a situation where instead of Elevens are being trusted, they are distrusted even more.

That is why Suzaku wants to crush the insurgents as quickly as he can. One side has to win for the fighting to stop, and of course he'll fight on his side.

The development will only occur if the conquered are trusted and respected for their achievements. Which, again, is where Suzaku's coming from.

antheonoileo

2007-01-13, 02:57

double sigh* The Numbers may be treated like dogs now, but UNLIKE a dog, a Number can prove that he is a Britannian's equal or better. Why? Because they are human, first and foremost. They HAVE the capacity to prove themselves as equals, UNLIKE dogs and machine tools.

If you still don't understand this, then you will never understand that people can change for the better.

…..

Firstly, I have to praise that you ‘re really hard-working, writing such long posts for just few hours. Ok let’s be on the content, i’ll try to make it short:

- What I try to tell you is that the reason why Numbers are treated like creatures is not because they are less capable. It is just because they are Numbers. See in the anime, a honor Britanian is lower than Britainian. Why ? Not because his ability is lower, but just because he was a Number.

- Do you know why the empress was “weak” ? Because she was not powerful, not because whether she can pilot the Lancelot or not (just kidding). You said “since he probably has the backing of the 2nd, 3rd, and the 6th in line to the throne. Quite high in the ranks of royalty if you ask me”: No, he only get the backing for him to be used more, not for him to raise idea (if then, except Euphie, the other prince/princess will want him to be dead meat).

Even realizing his usefulness, and using him more, Cornelia won’t supporting his ideal. They are different thing.

- If you say he only needs “little improvement” in behavior toward 11s, yes, right, struggling all his life with a careful attitude may achieve it. But it is just micracle that he didn’t, and won’t kill ppl– directly and indirectly. If you say because they are his enemy, then ok, you understand the point of where he belongs to (so Suzaku, don’t say like you are good and innocent !!)

Umm, I only said the reality of this world. Everyone are tools for other people. Respect and trust is gained by people who prove themselves most useful. That is the TRUTH of this world (Real or Geass).

eeh, I sense hypocrisy in this entire paragraph. Isn't what your spouting just a prettied up version of what I said, while hiding the truth that you still use people to cooperate with you. And at the same breath, you will abandon those who are useless to you.

Yes, hypocrisy, indeed.

You misunderstand my post because you equate usefulness with trust, love, and respect. Unlike you, I don’t see everyone as my tool. Some, yes (and they might think of me like that as well) but I have my love to my family and my friends without any requirements that they need to be useful to me.

And I will not “abandon those who are useless” to me (in my example, they are not only those I hate, but they also attempt to do harm to me). Have you done voluntary work ? Have you give money to poor people ? Do you need them to be useful to you ?

- My argument is to show the differentiation between usefulness with others – love, trust, respect, to support my idea that proving you are useful won’t make ppl listen to you, or necessary change their hatre toward you. In other side, people (except you and the Britanian) won’t hate/abandon others just because they are useless to you.

- To the Nazis thing: ok, you see the Britanian different from the Nazis. By:
+ Britanian having no “racialism” concept. Wrong !!
+ Nazis having no “Darwin” concept. Wrong for the 2nd time.

I’m tired with this long long topic with everytime same same basis (that Britanian is not really bad empire) already, so if you want to focus the discussion more about it, plz open a new topic and we will discuss it

Area 11 has already been a colony for 7 years running. At this time, we already know that, at the very least, there has already been 7 more areas overrun by the Imperials. (Area 18 = Mideast?)

Fighting invaders is something that cannot be avoided. In fact, I encourage battling to the death so the only the victors will be left behind and all semblance of the old rule will have disappeared. Makes for easier assimilation.

But when a country has already been beaten, and when said invaders are trying to improve the economy of said conquered region, further resistance is only countering any more development which can help the conquered peoples.
/
The war already ended 7 years ago with a resounding Britannian victory. Is there even any more need to further distrust and discord when the fruits of progress can be obtained by everyone in exchange for the loss of silly national pride?

- Before the war ended, do you know what Suzaku think ? For peace, “My father HAD to die”

- Do you think Britanian solders only kill resisters ? They feel free to kill innocents. And for civilian, didn’t you see the life of 11s being bullied by the Britanian ones ? Do you think they deserved it because some of their fellows are resisters ? Like I said, you seems to willingly accept your fate to knee down (if it happens). I’m different, I dun wanna be treated like a sheep.

TO ME, PEACE IS IMPORTANT, BUT NOT AS IMPORTANT AS BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

If you still think that the Numbers’ lives is acceptable, plz open new topic. This may be “Britanian is not a bad empire, and the Numbers should behave better” one then ^_^

Edit to add this:
That is why Suzaku wants to crush the insurgents as quickly as he can. One side has to win for the fighting to stop, and of course he'll fight on his side.

From the next one: Well, do you think that Zero thinks that he is wrong for killing people. NO, of course he doesn't.

Both men think that they are killing for a better cause and that the blood on their hands are nothing more than a means for their eventual goal of changing the world as they see it.

Ok, I'm glad to hear this as I'm tired of arguing. Then you agree that he chose one side and fight for it, crushing the other. And you also agree that Suzaku also chose the "bloody way".

Good. Good. That's exactly what he really is in people's mind.

Suzaku, you are no different from your enemy. Then don't act all high and mighty, ok !!!!!!!!!!

Nanaya

2007-01-13, 03:00

You claim that the Britannians would trust the Numbers if only the insurgence were removed? What, other than the fact that Britannians have stolen their land, dug up their sacred mountain as a mine, bombed their cities into rubble and taken all their rights away?

Well, it makes it easier for an incumbent power to trust the people below his authority if they don't have guns, right? Doesn't it make perfect sense?

Why WOULD any Britannians trust the Numbers, when the Numbers have every reason to hate them? The Britannians know they are in the wrong, and that's why they don't believe in justice. To believe in justice would be condemning themselves. Instead, it is official policy that "might makes right", as Euphie mentioned.. "We spilled blood to conquer them, so we have earned the right to rule over them".
(Note that Euphie doesn't really believe this... This is just standard mantra for Britannians to justify invading everyone they want.)

No. You misunderstand. Justice is different for each and every person. There are as many justices in this world as their are versions of what is good and evil.

To believe in their justice, they would condemn no one but the weak for their inability to fend off the Imperial hammer.

But most Britannians' sense of justice allows for people like Suzaku to show that Numbers can be respected and trusted. If Suzaku follows through, he could open a path for his fellow Numbers, never mind just the Elevens.

I mean in the sense that they both kill and denounce, but Suzaku behaves as if his killing people isn't wrong, or at the very least, LESS wrong than Zero's.

Well, do you think that Zero thinks that he is wrong for killing people. NO, of course he doesn't.

Both men think that they are killing for a better cause and that the blood on their hands are nothing more than a means for their eventual goal of changing the world as they see it.

There's no reason the JLF SHOULD be his allies. There's no formal agreement between them and whatnot. There's nothing that binds them together aside from the whole "Enemy of my enemy is my ally", which is a bit of an iffy thing in the first place especially when it's between two groups of insurgents.

Umm... so the enemy of my enemy is... my enemy?

Though Zero blowing up the ship may not have been the most effective way of doing it, since there's probably countless other scenarios with different outcomes and whatnot, it served to be a good distraction. First it takes out the enemy's aquatic Knightmares and also messes up the Knightmares on the ground, giving enough time for Zero and crew to sail across and deploy.

I'm not denying the fact that Zero's shock tactics are quite brilliant, but that doesn't really erase the fact that he just killed people who don't really expect him to kill them.

Anyway, I'm going back to lurking. I hate these kind of arguments since it's more or less "X does y because of z" that goes back and forth.

I apologize if that is what you have gotten from our debates, but the real world is as complex, if not more, as things like this.

Which is why there's a lot of people dying in this world right now.

Everyone thinks they're right, and that justice is on their side..

Village Idiot

2007-01-13, 03:19

Well, do you think that Zero thinks that he is wrong for killing people. NO, of course he doesn't.

Both men think that they are killing for a better cause and that the blood on their hands are nothing more than a means for their eventual goal of changing the world as they see it.

Though Zero blowing up the ship may not have been the most effective way of doing it, since there's probably countless other scenarios with different outcomes and whatnot, it served to be a good distraction. First it takes out the enemy's aquatic Knightmares and also messes up the Knightmares on the ground, giving enough time for Zero and crew to sail across and deploy.

Lelouch believes that if one is willing to kill, should be willing to be killed as well.

But Lelouch knows that killing innocents whom does not want to kill is wrong, and in Ep13, we see him struggling with coming to terms with that fact.

In the end, he accepts the deaths of the innocent people, but won't stop fighting because then all their deaths would have been for nothing.

atilim

2007-01-13, 03:26

The 80%I said was something sad about to Darlton when he asked about the situation, they sad the situation of the army.
Also even if JFL were defeated is doesn't mater too the Black Nights or to Britannia why because to Britannia the order of the Black Knights are the most dangerous. The afthermate and at the end of eps 12 Cornellia crearly stated this was a loss because of what it did to her army. For the Order of the Black Knights the damage is minimum.

Also something about Suzaku, he was in the first eps a small groundtroup, could it be he killed at least some 11. If that would be the case he would be the greatest hypocrite there is.

Nanaya

2007-01-13, 03:34

Firstly, I have to praise that you ‘re really hard-working, writing such long posts for just few hours. Ok let’s be on the content, i’ll try to make it short:

Thanks... I'm really tired especially since my day-off ends today. So this is probably my last post for a long while, maybe even forever.

- What I try to tell you is that the reason why Numbers are treated like creatures is not because they are less capable. It is just because they are Numbers. See in the anime, a honor Britanian is lower than Britainian. Why ? Not because his ability is lower, but just because he was a Number.

But I've already said this before, that's what Suzaku is trying to change. To get Britannians to trust Numbers so discrimination will disappear and that they'll be accepted afterwards.

- Do you know why the empress was “weak” ? Because she was not powerful, not because whether she can pilot the Lancelot or not (just kidding). You said “since he probably has the backing of the 2nd, 3rd, and the 6th in line to the throne. Quite high in the ranks of royalty if you ask me”: No, he only get the backing for him to be used more, not for him to raise idea (if then, except Euphie, the other prince/princess will want him to be dead meat).

A person allows himself to be used in order to gain favor. That is a basic human maneuver in socio-political schemes.

Even realizing his usefulness, and using him more, Cornelia won’t supporting his ideal. They are different thing.

People change. And so, an honorable Cornelia can listen as well if Suzaku gets enough royal favor.

- If you say he only needs “little improvement” in behavior toward 11s, yes, right, struggling all his life with a careful attitude may achieve it. But it is just micracle that he didn’t, and won’t kill ppl– directly and indirectly. If you say because they are his enemy, then ok, you understand the point of where he belongs to (so Suzaku, don’t say like you are good and innocent !!)

Well, I also believe that Suzaku isn't as good and innocent as Lulu. Both are gray characters. As I have always believed ever since watching the show, both men are as guilty as the other. Their paths just diverge while conflicting against one another.

You misunderstand my post because you equate usefulness with trust, love, and respect. Unlike you, I don’t see everyone as my tool. Some, yes (and they might think of me like that as well) but I have my love to my family and my friends without any requirements that they need to be useful to me.

The sense of love and support that your family gives you, isn't that something that you obtain from them. To foster feelings of warmth and enjoyment in you, don't you use your friends to make it so. Even if it is not obvious, people use other people for whatever they can obtain, be it physical, mental, emotional, or even psychological. That's just the way it is.

And I will not “abandon those who are useless” to me (in my example, they are not only those I hate, but they also attempt to do harm to me).

Well, aren't the people who you hate and those who attempt to harm you useless to you? You don't want them near you or those who you hold dear, right?

Have you done voluntary work? Have you give money to poor people ? Do you need them to be useful to you ?

Yes, because when I helped them, it made a little bit of my guilt and hatred in this world disappear. People normally help other people in what seems like "voluntary" work to make them feel good inside. That is the truth.

- My argument is to show the differentiation between usefulness with others – love, trust, respect, to support my idea that proving you are useful won’t make ppl listen to you, or necessary change their hatre toward you. In other side, people (except you and the Britanian) won’t hate/abandon others just because they are useless to you.

As I've explained above, usefulness in every imaginable sense of the word is what decides if a person will be loved, trusted, respected, or hated. It's just how the world works. Cut the world down like a piece of pie with logic and you see that this world is actually a very, very sad place.

- To the Nazis thing: ok, you see the Britanian different from the Nazis. By:
+ Britanian having no “racialism” concept. Wrong !!

No, no, no. I never said that Britannian society doesn't have racism. What they don't have is an ideology that says "every other peoples who are not of Britannian ancestry should die". They have racism, but not to the extent that they send every conquered peoples to death camps.

+ Nazis having no “Darwin” concept. Wrong for the 2nd time.

Umm... I never said this... If you carefully read what I said, you'd see that I said:

The Nazis do NOT have the condition that allows conquered people to change the system from within like Britannia does.

I’m tired with this long long topic with everytime same same basis (that Britanian is not really bad empire) already, so if you want to focus the discussion more about it, plz open a new topic and we will discuss it

As much fun as that sounds...that's too tiring.

- Before the war ended, do you know what Suzaku think ? For peace, “My father HAD to die”

Well, peace cannot exist with an old order trying to climb from the grave of its defeat using rebellion as its tool, right?

- Do you think Britanian solders only kill resisters ? They feel free to kill innocents. And for civilian, didn’t you see the life of 11s being bullied by the Britanian ones ? Do you think they deserved it because some of their fellows are resisters ? Like I said, you seems to willingly accept your fate to knee down (if it happens). I’m different, I dun wanna be treated like a sheep.

Well, from a military and logical point of view, yes, everyone that has been killed by Britannian soldiers have been on declared battlefields that are filled with Anti-Britannian insurgents. So yes, they only kill resisters. No one is innocent in the battlefield. A harsh truth, but for soldiers to survive, this is what they should live by, as what Vietnam and Afghanistan has shown in the past.

TO ME, PEACE IS IMPORTANT, BUT NOT AS IMPORTANT AS BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

Well, that's true. However, Suzaku wants to have both peace and basic human rights at the same time, which is a very ambitious and hard thing to do.

The thing is, it's not what you think is important, it's actually what the characters think (who we are watching) that's important to understand.

If you still think that the Numbers’ lives is acceptable, plz open new topic. This may be “Britanian is not a bad empire, and the Numbers should behave better” one then ^_^

Acceptable? I'm rooting for the guy who's trying to make a good change in the Empire... so why is is suddenly that you think that I like what's happening to the Numbers?

And even if Britannia is a bad empire now, even empires can change for the better. (which is the core message of Suzaku)

vs.

This empire is useless and will never change, so discard it and trash it. ( which is the core message of Lelouche)

Nanaya

2007-01-13, 03:42

Lelouch believes that if one is willing to kill, should be willing to be killed as well.

But Lelouch knows that killing innocents whom does not want to kill is wrong, and in Ep13, we see him struggling with coming to terms with that fact.

In the end, he accepts the deaths of the innocent people, but won't stop fighting because then all their deaths would have been for nothing.

Well, I basically approve of that idea. Those who kill should be ready to be killed. I also understand that he accepts the casualties that he causes, but does that make him any less of a killer than Suzaku?

Also, the second quote in your post wasn't from me. It was from a guy I quoted.

The 80%I said was something sad about to Darlton when he asked about the situation, they sad the situation of the army.
Also even if JFL were defeated is doesn't mater too the Black Nights or to Britannia why because to Britannia the order of the Black Knights are the most dangerous. The afthermate and at the end of eps 12 Cornellia crearly stated this was a loss because of what it did to her army. For the Order of the Black Knights the damage is minimum.

It was a personal loss for her, because the next episode clearly rebutts that phrase by saying that they won a sound military victory. And the 80% was only on the vanguard division. The vanguard isn't Cornelia's entire army. It's just the front.

Also something about Suzaku, he was in the first eps a small groundtroup, could it be he killed at least some 11. If that would be the case he would be the greatest hypocrite there is.

No, because he was shot at the back after apprehending Lelouche. After which he was transferred to where Lloyd was. Alsom he said it himself before: "He won't shoot a civilian." At which point he got himself shot for insubordination.

coefficient

2007-01-13, 03:49

Negative? Like lack of freedom for the masses? Freedoms are granted only to those who have the knowledge and responsibility to use them. Which is why some democracies tend to become brainless mob rules in third world nations. If a monarchy remained enlightened (not liberal so much as progressive), people under their rule will prosper. The only negative I can truly see is that monarchies require strong leaders or they fall. But being enlightened doesn't mean you're weak.

I meant the office of monarchy. What is granted is inherited, and for every Marcus Aurelius you've got in your monarchy you get a Caligula or a Commodus. Modern government's power is divided and limited to guard against that; it limits the potential of great men to do great things, but it also minimizes the harm crazy people who stumble their way into power can do.

anyway i may or may not reply in the morning, it's late

edited for the sake of completeness:

From now on, I WON'T reply to things that can happen in the plot as they look like summaries and spoilers and may make people feel like we're ruining their story for them. You may dream of what may happen, but that won't make it any more real until they DO happen.

I didn't say that to speculate, that belongs in another thread. The crux of my argument (and the crux of most people's arguments I think) is that Suzaku's actions are only justifiable if the goal he has in mind - colonial reform in the Britannian empire - is attainable. My point is that it's not attainable without resorting to methods as bloody if not bloodier than Lulu's, and those were the reasons why. He cannot assume power himself, so he has to gain influence in the halls of power, and assuming that the Britannian aristocracy is warlike and jealous of their power (a reasonable assumption, I think you will agree) he will need to plant his own people in power. However, under a hereditary legal framework, this is impossible without either convincing the people ahead of him to step down or killing them, which puts him on the path of carnage again. As such, his actions are not justifiable.

tl;dr: Suzaku can't implement any change whatsoever without getting his hands dirty with the blood of Britannian nobility. While struggling in vain to work the system from inside is admirable to some extent, it is not when you are aiding directly in the oppression of an entire nation (i cite again the shinjuku incident, where the resistance fighters were fighting soldiers who were liquidating the ghetto by mass extermination). whether or not he has actually killed civilians himself is beside the point; the lancelot, by demonstration and by the ace pilot law of anime, is easily worth an army of sutherlands/burais, and he is turning that against the people of japan, because -that's what an occupation army does-.

mangastuff

2007-01-13, 04:06

I'm sorry but if you say suzaku is trying to be an useful Honored Britanian so that he can change their perspective, does he think the same as the Britanian ? Is he then also a fan of the theory of goodess ?

I mean, when the Britanians tell "Well, we change our mind. Numbers can be very loyal and useful. We need to treat those useful ones a little bit better" will he say "No, usefulness is not important. Please treat all Numbers better" ? Will it then contradict with his way of climbing up the system ?

I have to ask it because of what I read in the posts. In my opinion, he doesn't really think that much. He may has some orient, yet he doesn't consider clearly what to do. I don't think he is like what Nanaya told, already chose to crush the other side to bring peace. If then he will be no different from Zero.

atilim

2007-01-13, 04:06

Nanaya I can't believe you. Losing at least 80% of you're forces during a operation is bad now mather how you look at it. After the Order showed up the main enemy was not JLF but the Order. The losses of Cornellia's army were great especially comperd to the losses the Order suffert. Those people hoe sad it was a victory were only saying that because they were afraid of Cornellia.

What happend her was something that happend against Zaft when they attack Alaska in Gundam Seed. Even if the EA lost a lot of people the damage to Zafts army were greater, why because they lost most of there attacking forces, and wars can't been won with only defending.

antheonoileo

2007-01-13, 04:29

I don't think Suzaku has already thought as far as you (willing to chose the bloody way), but yes if he has "darkly grey" thoughts like yours and willing to use some tactics to gain power (not just simple recognization of usefulness) , I think there is still oppotunity for him to gain sth big. And then I will not hate him like I am now.

Ok so we have 2 anti-hero chars now - one think himself is half an evil and one think he is an angel. Both of them chose bloody means to gain good ends, one feel a bit regretful and one feel angry with the other.

Then does the end justify the means ? "Yes. If you disagree, see my big canon."

I QUIT

seraphon

2007-01-13, 05:24

nanaya...... why cant you accept a simple truth proven by history and sciencefiction usual convention. A country ruled by a dictator and a small circle(here the nobles), totally racists, cruel, selfish, stupid, and whatever other horrible trait cannot be changed only by one of the subhumans (in the emperor and the majority of the nobles mind) showing "good manners" or by giving morale lessons like "we can be all happy together if we work together" (my god.... Did I really write that??). It s just impossible and its not weak minded...... We are not talking about changing the point of view of a misbehaved kid or even a criminal.

As for the exemples its very simple: in Europe where there was a lot of monarchies with influent noble courts who didnt give a damn about the population(and here we are talking about their own population, not some colonial population), the only way to change things were for the french to kill their king in the revolution and after that all the other countries tried that too (Well in some countries like england they didnt kill the king but weakened greatly his power against his will I may guess).
Second, there must be a reason why all the colonies in history never lasted long. All got freed after a certain time because tere is always trouble in a colony even when there is no racist emotion.
Of course you migth say if there was a lot of suzakus in the colony, things migth have be different.......I will only say maybe and try to show you the ineptie of suzaku s goal by other examples.

Now some really simple questions:
-In World War II do you think there ougth to be a suzaku (or more god help us) in France that should have tried to show the example by working in the nazies army and destroying all the rebellions group in France? You can say that the nazies are different than the britanians, and I would only say the difference is that the nazi wanted to exterminate more people. But they treated france correctly (more correctly than the britannians are treating the japanese even) and believed in the theory of the stong against the weak like a certain CG king.

Another example is Star wars (its not realist but CG isnt a real life situation anyways). Would you really applause(praise, admire, say he s rigth or whatever) a suzaku like person who isnt human and join the imperial army, then get to use a totally new space craft, than kick the ass of han solo and capture skywalker than crush the rebellion and act like the best possible soldiers. Do you think that the emperor and all the other powerful people of the empire(generals and governors) would look up on this suzaku like alien and suddenlyy try to change the system,even thougth the emperor and all the powerful people are known to be cruel, selfish crazy for some, and totally hate/despise aliens......... I dont think so............

nanaya if you can just truthfully answer to all these well I ll just find other examples to show that suzaku s goal are just plain impossible in CG's universe.

bond4154

2007-01-13, 08:00

I am in no mood to read all that above. I honestly am not in such a mood, nor do I have the time. So I skimmed through the above, and I'll spew a few random stuff as well.

With my position in a more neutral situation (I'm quite neutral about Suzaku; I neither like nor hate him), I'd like to point out that the topic under discussion here is not whether or not the Britannian Empire is evil, but whether or not Suzaku is a horrible character. I believe neither for the moment. Indeed, the Britannian Empire at the moment is corrupt, its Emperor moreorless a jackass. On the other hand, the Britannians don't complain. As far as I'm concerned, most Britannians are treated rather well by the government, and it is the Numbers that get the brunt of the shitty treatment. Racism happens everywhere, some more than others. Other than the Emperor, whom we honestly haven't seen much of, most of the royal family members and high-ranking officers we've seen so far have seemed like human beings as well instead of tyrants (with the exception of Clovis, but he died in the beginning of the third episode, so he doesn't count, but considering that many attended the Purists' parade of Suzaku, it seemed that he was moreorless welcomed by the Britannians). We've seen Cornelia slaughter people, but, on the other hand, she's quite kind to Euphemia, and she has shown great responsibility to people under her command instead of wasting their lives needlessly like pawns. There is no government that is evil; the government is only the lens that reflects the light of the people who run it. At the moment, though, I honestly don't think that the Britannians don't give a damn about their population. Even Britannian soldiers have been seen with the family members of the victims at Narita. We just sympathize a lot with the Elevens.

As for Suzaku himself...

Oh, yes. Let me make this clear really quick. Suzaku is in absolutely no way a Kira. The only similarities they share are that they have really kickass mechs, and that they are Japanese. Similarities end there. Kira was not nearly as naive as Suzaku was. Kira was a civilian who never received military training, but he walked into the cockpit of Strike fully aware that he would have to kill (Kira did not pursue a policy of missing cockpits until he received Freedom and could afford to do non-lethal combat). Suzaku was a military-trained soldier who still wanted to prevent as much loss of life. Kira joined the military only because the situation forced him to protect his friends. Suzaku joined because he wanted to change Britannia (I'm skeptical of that, as we haven't seen Suzaku do much, nor seen much backing for such a claim). Kira never criticized the "justice" of killing Coordinators or Naturals, and accepted the fact that such hate was simply going to last between the Earth Alliance and PLANT. Suzaku could not accept the killings made by the Order of the Black Knights because they did not operate under legit authority. The two could not possibly be even more different. So, as a declaration, I shall now bonk anyone on the head with a mallet if they call Suzaku a Kira.

And that is all. ^_^

Trax

2007-01-13, 08:50

One reason that he joined the army is to minimize the casualties which his side causes. Of course, he may sound like a hypocrite, but he isn't someone who has a Freedom Gundam supporting him with a secret base leisurely roving around the country. He is limited by what he can do. But even, he is still doing something.

The problem is that his chances of success depend on a ton of ifs, meaning it's extremely unlikely unless everything happens in his favor. This unlikeliness makes it very hard to root for him. While Lulu has had his share of good fortune, it still seems more likely he'll make some progress thanks to his Geass and his current status in the rebellion.

Being practical makes a person less discriminatory than other people. Being practical means logic comes first before prejudice.

True, but it's no guarantee. Britannians have been brainwashed in some degree by their countries propoganda and only a select few might actually doubt the beliefs forced upon them.

Also, the same phrase can be used against you as well. Just because we've seen Britannian thugs around the settlements, it doesn't necessarily mean that all Britannians in the settlement are like that.

But it doesn't mean all Britannians in the settlement *aren't* like that either, or at least to some degree. From what has been shown so far, Britannians are either derogatory or indifferent at best towards Elevens. The latter case seemingly being quite rare.

If the Emperor truly had Purist inclinations, Honorary Britannians wouldn't have been ever enlisted in the army like Suzaku was. What is clear about the emperor is that he believes that the "strong live and the weak die". If Suzaku is able to show his resolve, even the emperor could change his mind if that philosophy is what he TRULY believes in. Even if the Emperor is a jerk, Suzaku can gain favor from the royalty that is allowing him to climb the ranks.

Purist inclinations could mean that he would never allow a HB to attain a high rank, not necessarily ban them from the army altogether. Even if the Emperor believes strongly in that philosophy, we have no idea about the specific way he applies it and if he would just view Suzaku is a useful tool rather than give him any real respect.

Lulu's sense of justice isn't any far worse than Suzaku's if you ask for hypocrisy, and yet it's only one guy who gets the flak.

Imo that's because Lulu 's trying to create an image (ally of justice) to garner support, but doesn't actually mean it and knows he's technically being a hypocrite. While on the other hand Suzaku actually believes his own nonsense without realizing he's being a hypocrite.

Well, as I said before: collateral damage. Logically speaking, it's the easiest way to fight their war without losing as many of their own troops.

I already admitted to that, but that doesn't make it any less true that they're knowingly killing innocent civilians. And it irks me that Suzaku conveniently ignores that.

Lulu is a bit of a bastard in his own right, and while he tries to build a false image and uses people as chess pieces to some degree, he's fully aware of what he's doing and what the consequences of his actions are. While Suzaku is just lying to himself.

Viperus

2007-01-13, 09:16

wow , this was.........long.... :)

this is typical Kira-Athuran (Gundam Seed) situation , Athuran....err Suzaku will see that his way is wrong , and join Kira on the Arch.....I mean Lulu on his ship-vehicle , whatever it is.

We can debate on this topic all day long. Lets say this anime is the real world. possible choices:

1)Lelouch defeats britannia , the empire crumbles , the small nations fight one another , more killing , great.

2) Lelouch becomes the ruler of Britannia (in that case Suzaku is his slave), nothing much really changes. He renames Area 11 to Japan , and gives a bit more freedom to the ocupied countries.

3) Zero gets killed and 11's get masacred because of their rebellion.

Nothing good can really happen no matter what main characters do.

Darkeyesrina

2007-01-13, 11:38

Just wondering, who do you think had more and better results both economically and for their people until know:
-the Latin American US Community and countries, their low status member in US government, and the honorary citizenships

-the Arabians including Osama Bin Laden or the Iran's President, and their own independence to do what they decide even if they have to spill their own blood to gain that.

-China and North Korea that can basically do what they want without worrying of attacks from the US because they are a power on their own.

Suzaku is the first one. Even if he gets all the medals and awards possible and existing, he still isn't a Brittanian, so someday if needed he will be betrayed, strip from power, and returned to his home with nothing of what he worked to obtain.

Lelouch is the second one, trying to raise to the third spot. He knows that he is going to raise hell everywhere, he knows that he will have to kill for his ideals, he doesn't like it but he knows it is needed.

People here go like Lelouch should simply stop killing and let himself and Nanaly get captured and be used as tools for the Empire for the 'greater good'. Well, the world doesn't work like that, and each person actually have a right to fight for his own freedom. People call Lelouch an arrogant and greedy person for causing soo much death for his own personal gain, yet the other alternative isn't even better for him.

mangastuff

2007-01-13, 13:11

-the Latin American US Community and countries, their low status member in US government, and the honorary citizenships

-the Arabians including Osama Bin Laden or the Iran's President, and their own independence to do what they decide even if they have to spill their own blood to gain that.

The levels are different. The Latin American people are treated as good as the US citizens (And those are dif. nations then). To the case of the Arabians, he "invasion" of the US, if you want to use the word, is not as an extreme case as in Code Geass. It is different like, say, between whether you will resist if a gang hit you and whether you will resist if they are about to kill you.

evil|plushie

2007-01-13, 14:49

Basically, people have to read Suzaku's lines to be able to grasp what it is he wants. What he wants isn't obvious so people will, in turn, obviously just label him as a lapdog traitor because it's EASIER to do so than to understand him.
.

That's because there's nothing to him to understand yet. Suzaku has gotten the LEAST character development in the entire series, considering hes one of the main characters. Right now he can be summed up in one sentence 'This isn't Justice!!' :p

Don't try and say we don't try and understand Suzaku, hell I'd love to know how that mind of his works in the first place but the simple fact is he has NO frigging development at all. And everything else so far beyond the fact that he has some notion of justice that isn't quite clear is mere conjecture.

Let's also not forget that the Lancelot was constructed under the 2nd Imperial Prince. Yet, the Prince ALLOWED a number, whose not even suppose to pilot a KF, to pilot it despite the opposition of most of the Britannian officers. As Euphie's general stated, not even they can shove Suzuka off the board. When Cornelia first arrived she promoted Suzuka to Warrent Officer. And now he stands for another promotion. I would say he is literally a hero for HB's as it shows them that even they can rise to the top in the Britannian Empire. Cornelia stated firmly that she intends to win without numbers but we can see now that has changed. So yes he is changing the system and how people view HB's. Since Euphie shares his views she too will fight for change.

I disagree. Do you honestly think that if there was a britiannian that could pilot Freed- Lancelot they wouldnt use him instead and then relegate Suzaku back to the monkey trash they think he is?

And yes I suppose he's a hero to other HBs for showing them that yes, they too can risk their lives fighting for Britiannia and crushing other numbers, assuming they are ever lucky enough to find themselves in a lancelot. -_- Suzakus current success so far has been a fluke and theres little improvement to show at all for all his effort.

Suzaku desperately needs char. development but somehow I doubt he'll be getting it. He somehow thinks the world is this magical fantasy where everyone should become honourary britiannians and cant understand why people dont leap at the chance to embrace the nationality of the country that invaded them and then oppressed them. Either that or he needs sensitivity training.

As for the battle at Narita, exactly what kind of world would consider losing 80% of its forces to a smaller sized rebel troop as a victory???? Not to mention that obviously the key figures seemed to have escaped that battle.

lade

2007-01-13, 22:04

I believe some of you here watch gundam, some of you may have watched gundam 0080, a fantastic piece of work by tomino showing war at it's best , I see code geass as such a scenario. It put a human face to the bad guys , but still ensured they all died in their mission, because their the bad guys and the their opponents can't lose their resole just because they know them, fitting that the main zaft character died at the hands of someone he cared for.Just because you have gotten to know them and sympathize with them does not change the nature of what they are or represent.

Britannia is in itself a scourge on the world, yes there are a few bright spots to it, euphemia comes to mind, but where it counts and where it does matter it is still a scourge, lelouch to me is no saint but at least he is honest enough with himself to accept what he must do and feels some measure of guilt for doing them, but still has the resolve to continue, the world if schniezel ever gets the throne is likely to become a far worse place than it will better.

I for one see even suzaku waking up to the harsh reality of his situation after he gets a load of schniezel, and what it may portend for the rest of world if britannia isn't stopped.That people like shirley not altogether deserving of their fate ( I can't see lulu letting her live with such compromising information about him , when he ever the realist can't afford to be immune to reality due to feelings for her ,if he has any), they will suffer yes but the rest of the world will get a chance to live.

bond4154

2007-01-14, 03:13

/me hits Viperus on the head with a mallet for making a Kira-Suzaku reference. See last post on page 11. >_>

anselfir

2007-01-14, 03:15

I don't find the main moral issue in this show to be "end/means" which btw is either a simple fallacy or a confusion over language. It is how they tend to frame the rebellion as one of national struggle, and not one of anti-coercion or anti-war/violence. The rationale behind britain's invasion is never explained in the beginning, so the audience is expected to assume something like "a war over resources, " or a war over land, whcih would frame the war as a struggle between the britain people (who presumably benefit from the war) and the nippon people. Yeah, great, why not say plainly that the good struggle should be one against nationalistic aggression and "us" vs "them" mentalities. And depending on the government structure of britainia maybe a rally against monarchies or some other long beaten up punching bag. (for sure they wont be attacing a democratic britania, now will they)

If this turns out to be a nationalist jerkfest then it is one of the worst anime phenomenons ever.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2007-01-14, 03:33

bond4154

2007-01-14, 03:40

Vallen Chaos Valiant makes a very good point. Nationalism is a result of power struggles, two different forces that are constantly at odds. Nationalism was the core of post-World War I Germany that held the Germans together as they became the Nazis and brought out Germany's economy. At the same time, England's nationalism after the Industrial Revolution came from the arrogance of being the world's most advanced nation at the time. Nationalism itself is the bind that holds the people together, not necessarily the source of conflict itself. The same goes with Britannians and Elevens. The Brits consider themselves superior to the Elevens. Enough said.

...On that note, I find it oddly ironic that, a century after the Japanese tried to conquer Southeast Asia to build their empire and committed atrocities under the name of the Emperor, and sixty years after their dream collapsed and paved the way to Western influence, the Japanese create an anime where they are becoming the ones who are oppressed and persecuted. Irony indeed.

Guppy

2007-01-14, 04:05

...On that note, I find it oddly ironic that, a century after the Japanese tried to conquer Southeast Asia to build their empire and committed atrocities under the name of the Emperor, and sixty years after their dream collapsed and paved the way to Western influence, the Japanese create an anime where they are becoming the ones who are oppressed and persecuted. Irony indeed.Didn't one of the Japanese posters here comment that the producer is well-known for his left-wing political leanings, and this aspect of Code Geass is almost certainly a deliberate, pointed jab at right-wing Japanese nationalists?

(Found it - this (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=748620&postcount=597) is the post, by Nagoyan.)

bond4154

2007-01-14, 04:35

Thanks, Guppy. ^_^

Viperus

2007-01-14, 05:07

/me hits Viperus on the head with a mallet for making a Kira-Suzaku reference. See last post on page 11. >_>

Actually , I said Suzaku is more like Athuran (or however you spell his name , it differs from fansub to fansub , but he's the one that pilots Justice) so............

/Viperus swiftly avoids the mallet , draws a katana from his pocket and shatteres the mallet into a million pices. RIP Mallet :D

seraphon

2007-01-14, 10:08

After seeing ep 13 I can say that suzaku changing brittania from the inside is really impossible.
Why? because it seems that its not even suzaku's real goal anyways........ Suzaku acts like a little kid......
First he answers "yes my lord" to the order of "kill them all" ,cool, thougth I dont see where the justice is because justice says that everyone , even the worst dictator, deserve to be tried in a court. Afterwards he look totally dumbfounded to the unilateral massacre of the JLF....... which proves that he s a coward that is all talk because if he believed so much in justice he would have tried something, like jumping in front of his britannians pals.....
And finally the way he reacted to zero's attack and how he speak to him show totally that he is losing his nerves for being a worthless coward. Men, he was totally venting his frustration on zero by shouting at him and by bashing him.....
Saying things like, murderer!!!! because zero used the JLF that were massacred by his "justice armie"..... It s funny how he got the idea that the JLF death were totally zero's fault.

In fact now, suzaku only goal is to bash zero's ass and say to him "hahaha I got you, you were wrong, your method doesnt work , Told you so".... wow

Owaranai Destiny

2007-01-14, 10:26

Let's face it: The only real good argument going for Suzaku here is the time factor and tonnes of "Ifs". Despite the fact that there have been a few Britannians shown to have shown less or no discrimination to honorary Britannians at all, they are just that: A few.

I have to admit that despite all the flak for him, Suzaku truly has little character development so far. Compared to Lelouch, who has already seen two sides of the coin yet is still ready to continue his struggle, Suzaku has indeed been living in his own little world. It will do wonders to his character if he has to face the same harsh reality as well, which might be a result of his own selfish actions just like ol' Lulu...Unless of course, Code Geass is still intent on showing them in two different lights in this aspect.

One last thing: If Suzaku's character is really all that good, I don't believe he would be drawing so much flak from so many viewers.

mangastuff

2007-01-14, 10:51

In fact now, suzaku only goal is to bash zero's ass and say to him "hahaha I got you, you were wrong, your method doesnt work , Told you so".... wow

Totally agree with you. I'm not sure if "changing from inside" theory is ok or not, but what Suzaku has done so far doesn't seem to me that he is indeed pursueing this goal, but more like he has changed to a new task - critizing and fighting against Zero :heh:

seraphon

2007-01-14, 12:01

Majek

2007-01-14, 12:35

I ve reviewed old episodes and I found the perfect and undeniable proof that suzau is no ally of justice!.
In episode 11 , when C.C make him sees his past and he get crazy, can you seriously say that the face suzaku has after they find him in his cockpit, is the face of an ally of justice? I think its more the face of a damn traitor whos to weak to admit he is a traitor.
Well of course after a intense mindrape you'll have alook peace on your face. :uhoh:

And Zero IS a murderer there's nothing wrong with that Suzaku's statement.

seraphon

2007-01-14, 12:46

Plan 36

2007-01-14, 12:46

Yeah, but when a murderer (who doesn't realize that he is one) accuse another murderer, it's called hipocrisy.

Varis

2007-01-14, 12:50

Well of course after a intense mindrape you'll have alook peace on your face. :uhoh:

And Zero IS a murderer there's nothing wrong with that Suzaku's statement.

No one denies that Lulu murderer, we just think it's annoying how the pot is calling the kettle black. With a righteous tone on top of it.

Viperus

2007-01-14, 12:55

Yeah , he convinced himself that he is helping his people , but he's really afraid to admit that he is the military's dog.

My friends are opsessed with Ogame , so here's a reference from Ogame that I was forced to listen during school : "guy A was a spy from clan A , he joined clan B , saying that he'll help clan A by sabotaging clan B, but since clan B was stronger , he sticked with clan B. (his intent was honest, but when he saw the strenght of the clan B he got seduced by the power).

Ok , that was a stupid comparision , but thats what happened with Suzaku , he doesnt have the strenght to oppose them , I mean , what would you do if you piloted the strongest robot on the planet (that probably needs $$$$$$$ and a very complicated maintenence so its pointless to steal it).

Basicly he got bribed , but he's still convincing himself he's the good guy.

Majek

2007-01-14, 12:58

well suzaku is a murderer too then. And I was snapping about the way he says it. He said as if he had no part in it and that it was entirely zero s fault the JLF died....... and you know its easy to say zero is a murderer but I dont hear suzaku saying anything to his superiors.Well how many people has Suzaku killed untill ep 13 where he (supposedly) killed the soldiers on the boat?

And I think the face wasnt because of the mind rape...... because in that case C.C and lulu also had a mind rape and they fare better.........
You knowing seeing a memorie about your father then going berserk saying AARRRRGGGGG I HAD NO CHOICE totally sound like what a traitor say to the face of those he betrayed.
Of course only traitor are ever faced with maing tough decisions that their fathers wouldn't approve and he saw much more that just his father. WHo knows what esle he haad been shown , especially when it all went out of control when LULu touched CC.

Plan 36

2007-01-14, 13:06

Majek

2007-01-14, 13:09

Well, by foiling Lelouch's plan he aids in killing many people. In ep 2, if not for Lelouch all those Japanese in Shinjuku would be killed). Ep 13, he didn't stop when the JLF surrendered and would have killed them all if Lelouch didn't do it for him. And we still don't know what's the deal between him and his father.

Really, he's a hipocrite.
That's a really good answer to my question.

So every soldier is hypocrite? Anway i'm fine with Suzaku being labeled a hypocrite but NOT for calling and beliveing Zero a murderer.

evil|plushie

2007-01-14, 13:39

Well how many people has Suzaku killed untill ep 13 where he (supposedly) killed the soldiers on the boat?

Of course only traitor are ever faced with maing tough decisions that their fathers wouldn't approve and he saw much more that just his father. WHo knows what esle he haad been shown , especially when it all went out of control when LULu touched CC.

Why would that matter? Does he get some sort of prize when he kills more? Or maybe he's only considered a murderer when he's killed a certain amount of people?

That's a really good answer to my question.

So every soldier is hypocrite? Anway i'm fine with Suzaku being labeled a hypocrite but NOT for calling and beliveing Zero a murderer.

Shrugs. Most soldiers don't go around saying 'THIS ISNT JUSTICE!!!!'. I mean, its fine to join the army if you realise you may have to end up killing people who deserve to live just as much as you do and that sometimes it cant be helped cause its war. However, I draw the line at people joining the army and thinking theyre enacting justice on the world. This is what the rest of society calls self-righteous hypocrites.

So yeah Suzaku IS a hypocrite for the simple reason that he is really no better than Zero and yet constantly spouts bullcrap about how he is somehow idealistically better. In other words, Suzaku is a hypocrite for calling and believing Zero a murderer AND believing himself better than Zero when he isnt

Majek

2007-01-14, 13:46

Why would that matter? Does he get some sort of prize when he kills more? Or maybe he's only considered a murderer when he's killed a certain amount of people?

Well if you don't know if he even killed anyone how can you call that person a murderer?

evil|plushie

2007-01-14, 13:50

Uh...the people in the JLF cannon he blew up? Thats pretty much a confirmed kill. And that was just in episode 8

seraphon

2007-01-14, 13:53

well Majek, If suzaku really betrayed his father for a very,very good reason why is he so agitated about it? well of course you cannot not have remorse about betraying your own father but in suzaku's case, he totally looks like he had no real good reasons for doing it. Like I said the face he shows in ep11 after the "mindrape" like you said, is the face of someone who fells reallllyyyyyyy guilty about something and tries to deny reality.

Well to be fair all of this is only guessing on my part, but I keep saying that that face in ep11 isnt the face of a hero of justice.

Santa Claus

2007-01-14, 13:57

Warning: Minor spoilers for up to Episode 10.

Yes, unlikely. But that is the only way he knows that he can make a difference without getting other people involved if he commits rebellion. Unlike Lulu, everyone knows who Suzaku is. Suzaku risks a lot more, because not only does the hopes of better treatment of Honorary Britannians is a burden on him, the greater acceptance and trust of other Numbers apply for him as well.

He could also have tried, in the newer eps, to influence Euphie and Cornelia to make changes. As far as we can see, he did not. And he does have Euphie’s ear, who in turn has Cornelia’s ear.

And yes, the end result of his transformation plan looks better on paper – and that’s only IF those in power decide it’s in their best interests to enact change. What does that have to do with my argument that his ‘plan’ is unlikely to work in a military dictatorship that seems to control the media?

Which is why I agreed... is there a problem with agreeing?

Did I say there was a problem with agreeing?

I must have read your post incorrectly, because it sounded like a lecture when I got to that part. My apologies if I was wrong.

And? If the Geass wasn't around, Lelouch wouldn't have been able to be where he is right now in a matter of weeks. By the time, Lelouch reached where he is now without the Geas, he might've already been killed since he'd have no C.C. to save him anymore.

You're being too tough on Suzaku for his dependence intertwined fate with Zero, while you also seem to conveniently forget Lelouch's dependence on the Geas and C.C. to make his plans succeed as quickly as they have.

Sure. Lelouch definitely wouldn’t be where he is now without the Geass. However, it’s up in the air as to how far he’d get with his sadistic dream. He’s Britannian, and he’s an imperial prince. If he was willing to be completely ruthless, I’d say he would probably have gotten quite far. Meanwhile, I see Suzaku in a military dictatorship in which the only thing that can help him achieve his goals – excluding the Imperial Princesses he’d otherwise never have met – is the media. Look how sycophantic the media was towards Clovis, and remember the fate of those who covered Zero’s appearances. I’m sure they’d be willing to do exclusives on him to further his cause.

But again, that’s conjecture, so I’ll try to leave it out of the debate. But let’s put things into perspective: Lulu uses the Geas quite often. Sure. He doesn’t always seem to use it in the most intelligent way, but he gets things done using this PD of his. What does Suzaku do to further his own goals, besides beating down on his own countrymen? You might say that without constant rebellions, there would be no discrimination towards Elevens. But how likely is it that Britannians – a people raised to believe might makes right – will suddenly accept the Japanese as anything other than a subordinate, defeated race? Their nation lost, which means they as a people are weak and inferior, both mentally and physically. I’m basing this on the sheer number of racist, apathetic Britannians in the series, and on real life.

And does Lulu use his ability to come up with plans? It certainly is a major factor in his schemes, but it certainly doesn’t draw up his plans for him. He does have a brain.

Sure doesn't sound like it.

That’s because you seem to look for insults that aren’t there. If you’ll look back to my previous posts, you won’t find anyplace where I call him a treacherous traitor, as other posters chose to do.

If I recall correctly, the most I did was call him stupid. I’m pretty sure I only insulted his original character concept and his plan, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt as I’m too lazy to check my posts. Well let’s see…He has an arguably unworkable ‘plan,’ and seems quite blind to the atrocities Britannians willingly commit, while condemning the unintentional actions of rebels. I could have called him a traitor to his nation, but I didn’t, as I believe he honestly thinks what he’s doing is to the benefit of all Elevens (as well as other Numbers.) It’s just that he has no plan worth considering.

Would it make you happier if I called him a naïve idealist instead? Or should I just bow down to his infinite wisdom and compassion?

Yes. Isn't it obvious that Clovis doesn't have even half the brains of Cornelia in battle?

What does this have to do with my argument? In Narita, Cornelia didn’t want to use the Lancelot on the front lines either. And that’s after she saw its power during the hostage incident.

And also, without the Geas or C.C., Lulu might never have been able to achieve anything as well.

Trying to discredit the characters by using their plot devices is kind of... suck. If both of them didn't have any plot devices, this series would have ended in one episode.

It becomes less “suck” if we realize that Suzaku couldn’t have foreseen he’d pilot an uber mech and miraculously climb the military ranks – something no Number was ever allowed to do. Again, I’m saying his original plan was lacking in imagination and forethought. It worked out because of the plot, and the fact that this is a cartoon. In the real world, it’d likely never work.

Yes, Lulu couldn’t have foreseen the Geas either. And even though he told C.C. he had plans to destroy the Empire, I do have my doubts. But take a look at him: he’s royalty and has connections (Ashfords.) He’d make a good pawn for families not in power. The only thing against this is his intelligence and spine – though from what we’ve seen, he can put up a pretty convincing act if he wants to.

At the very least he could help destroy one of the resistance factions to get back in his father’s good graces. He obviously did a lot of research on the Kyoto group – enough to narrow down the leaders to a small list of candidates. I tend to think of this as prior research on his part, though of course we are not told whether this is so.

For some reason you seem to think I’m arguing for Lulu. For all his vaunted intelligence, I believe he’s almost every bit as idiotic as Suzaku, who at least has the excuse that he might have had some mental trauma in his childhood. All I’ve said so far in Lulu’s favor is his plan stands a chance of success, and that he at least uses his PDs to further his goals. Just because I haven’t ragged too much on him yet doesn’t mean a thing. Remember, I did call him an idiot, too – something I’m not sure I even did for Suzaku in previous posts.

It's not a matter of who has the higher chance to succeed that the topic asks. It's a matter of who is more righteous of these two gray characters.

(If you ask me, it's even more ridiculous to ask such a question, since right and wrong changes for every person since we all live in a gray world.)

I agree: it is a ridiculous question, since what is white and good for one person may be dark and evil for another. Which is why I focused on my question, as I believe Suzaku’s efforts are all for nothing (as per his initial plan.) It is not entirely off topic.

Well, do we need to count them? What I wanted to imply is that blaming a character's development through their plot devices is a basically useless argument. Both use a lot of plot devices to get their plans saved that the two are in a friggin' deadlock as of now.

I addressed this above.

Suzaku has no plans in need of saving, and he doesn’t seem to use his newfound station and influence in any way.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS!?! That is what Suzaku wants to friggin' change! He wants to defeat this discrimination by replacing it with trust and respect.

Just because you're different one day doesn't mean you can't change the next. That is what assimilation is for. And the kind of assimilation that Suzaku wants is one where all his fellow Elevens can be treated as equals and partners in the Empire that he is serving now.

‘Defeat discrimination by replacing it with trust and respect’ sounds good in a democratic nation, which is the reason why I included the examples that I did.

The Numbers system in practice is hardly assimilation. It’s more like enforced servitude. HBs can’t get anywhere in the military. They are allowed to govern themselves (right?) as puppets friendly to Britannian interests, first and foremost. We only have to look at the Britannian suburbs and the Eleven ghettoes to see this.

Racism and discrimination are not easy to combat, and they will never die down. And in many ways apathy is much worse. There will never be equality so long as the Numbers system exists. If they truly wanted to assimilate the Japanese, they’d have granted them citizenship status, not slap them with a numerical designation. And one soldier is supposed to change all of this? Britannia is more despotic than our Rome ever was. That was why I brought up ol’ Stilicho. This man is just one in a long line of “impure” Roman soldiers and generals who’ve earned their share of honors defending the empire. Their people were “assimilated” through political/military reforms centuries ago. And yet the foederati were never seen as equals. And not in the entire existence of the Empire were they “partners.” It’s been a while since I’ve read up on the subject of course, so I may be mistaken. But I doubt it.

Frankly the most the Elevens have to look forward to is a lifetime of subservience, discrimination and second class citizenship. In return for meekly bowing down to this, they will not get mowed down on the whim of their Britannian overlords. And that’s if none of their fellow Numbers commit acts of treason within a 100 mile radius of their position. One has to wonder if the Ashford Students’ (who are far removed from their motherland) lack of compassion for the plight of Shinjuku is indicative of their nation as a whole.

Maybe in the Geass world it’s different, but I’ve never seen a case of similar occupations working out in the real world.

Well, if my reading of Cornelia's personality is correct, she places Suzaku in her unit out of gratitude. Though Cornelia shows that she is a brutal military commander, when she was about to get nabbed at Narita, she showed that she also has pride and honor as an Imperial Princess. She has honor, for short.

I’d say she has pride, and maybe a smidgeon of honor, if that. Even given what you say, I doubt she’ll be elevating other Elevens any time soon though.

Umm... so talking about a dead guy would do what? Dead people can't change, that much I can say.

I was saying that this dead guy would never have allowed any of Suzaku’s great deeds to come to light, and was even less likely to promote him. At best Suzaku would have remained a Private. In that case his plan just died.

Lol, same with Lulu. Very lovely, indeed.

I’d agree, except Lulu uses his ability to further his goals. Suzaku does as well, but then doesn’t even say a thing regarding equality.

Well, please stick that discussion again when Suzaku gets killed. Then, I will yield.

Would you have been happier if I left out the part where Stilicho is killed? The parallel I pointed out to still stands: both were/are regarded as second-class citizens and bestial. Both strived hard in the military, and both were/are climbing the ranks. The only difference is Stilicho was just one in a long line of non-Roman soldiers/generals loyal to Rome. As far as we can see, Suzaku is the only one with that plan of his. He’s got HB compatriots in the army sure, but we never see what they have to say on the subject.

End result? Both Rome and Britannia still treat(ed) their foederati/Numbers like garbage. How about I find another barbarian Roman soldier that wasn’t killed off by those interested in keeping the status quo? What difference would it make with my argument that Suzaku’s plan has practically no chance of success? I’d give him 10,000 years and still be called stingy.

But hey, if that man OBVIOUSLY believes in Social Darwinism, if Suzaku proves the worth of being a Number doesn't necessarily mean weakling, won't that said man also respect Suzaku. And to gain the Emperor's respect can make it look like a sign of new times, right? Besides, I've never even heard anything that says the Emperor is Purist. Well, even Cornelia had semi-Purist ideals before she was saved by Suzaku, right?

….

He's a soldier. If he proves himself in the many other wars that the Empire is in right now, then, even without a Zero, he would have climbed of his own free will. And who's to say that even without Zero, he wouldn't have gotten obtained the Lancelot just through Lloyd's search for a good pilot?

Unlikely that he’d have risen through the ranks. How is he going to prove himself to a superior who considers him a monkey? From what we’ve seen, Britannian regulars appear to be made up of pure Britannians. Knights dominate the battlefield, and Numbers can’t become pilots. So how, again, is he going to prove himself? How is Lloyd going to find him in his search for a good pilot? Even if he miraculously ended up as the pilot, who is going to let him onto the field?

Well, isn't following orders how people advance in real life as well (apart from killing your masters and stealing their wealth)? Don't tell me you didn't know that.

It’s difficult even in a democracy to advance in an army composed of highly discriminatory higher ups determined to keep you down. Don’t tell me you didn’t know that.

And having an eye that controls people is?

Understand that based on how Suzaku is built as an HB, that is the only thing he can do.

You’re picking at straws. I said it’s more difficult to change something than to destroy it. I understand that joining the military is something Suzaku can do. Whether it’s the only thing he can do to bring about change is arguable. He could try to work in the regional government. I thought the Britannians wanted Numbers to govern themselves, as long as they govern in the Empire’s best interests at the expense of their own countrymen.

So let’s say it’s the only thing he can do. Does that make it so his plan has more than a sliver’s chance of success? No.

Umm... you didn't even understand the distinct difference that I gave...

As I have posted somewhere before, there must be a condition to be able to make changes in the system. You must be able to get in it. The Indian-Colonial thing had no room for the Natives to get in. Hence, the reservations.

Britannia, however, has room where a person can enter the government to make changes. A very distinct difference.

No. Britannia doesn’t have room where a person can enter to make changes. It was never claimed that this is the case: what they say is that people can govern themselves. Puppets, in other words. You really think that the royalty wants to rock the boat? They’re perfectly fine where they are; their nation is the only superpower in the world and they are rich and powerful. Pure Britannians seem loyal enough, and only pockets of resistance to their rule exist in Number territories. They even invade on the Eurasian continent (where the EEU and Chinese Federation are) with seeming impunity.

Of course there was room for Natives to get into the army. Many were employed (used would be the better word) as scouts and spies. They were quite effective, too. But disregarding that, what of Rome? Barbarians could get into the army, can even rise though the ranks. Wasn’t a utopia for them there, even though they some looked much like ordinary Romans.

Didn't I say acceptance is slow to come? Or, do you just hate reading what I post?

I suggest you calm down. For someone who claims to read between a character’s lines, you sure like to ignore what I have to say in prior posts. Acceptance will never come. It never did (between people of dissimilar cultures) for any Empire in RL history, and I can only assume it never will in the world of CG. But then again there seems to be magic in that world, so hey, anything’s possible.

We aren't told if other HBs are able to join the local government just as easily as they can the army. As such, the path to better government doesn't just lie on having a 7th gen Knightmare Frame that gets a person involved with an Imperial Princess. There must be others who think just like Suzaku who work to make Area 11 better without resorting to belligerency. I highly doubt that Suzaku's the only one who thinks that Elevens can't work hand in hand with the now incumbent powers that rule their nation. So making such a provoking remark isn't really useful for this argument with the sarcasm.

I don’t have the episodes on me anymore, but I thought Britannians wanted the Numbers to govern themselves, with perhaps a Britannian in overall authority?

And a sarcastic remark was made to a poster who fancied himself the all and end all of character judges.

Yes, conjecture indeed. What use is a disinherited prince if there is already another person that will take the crown. Even before being disinherited, Lulu was like 17th in succession to the throne...

... that's very far.

The funny thing is, he’s the seventeenth successor, but gg also says second in line to the throne in the same sentence. I’m no judge of European nobility rankings, but if his mother was the Empress – the legal wife – then as the eldest son, Lulu should be the heir apparent. That’s assuming his pops doesn’t just nominate whoever the hell he wants, which would fit the character of the nation.