View Full Version : GITS 2nd gig and Paranoid Agent
Hi,
I just wanted to know if anyone if going to sub Ghost in the Shell 2nd gig as well as Paranoid Agent. I just got january's Newtype and got curious..
cheers
tsurumaru
2004-01-03, 18:33
Hi,
I just wanted to know if anyone if going to sub Ghost in the Shell 2nd gig as well as Paranoid Agent. I just got january's Newtype and got curious..
cheers
Hmm Not sure on GITS 2nd Gig, as I'm pretty sure the First Series had actually been licensed by Bandai before it even aired! This didn't stop some fansub groups though from releasing and only when Bandai got serious (threatening Legal action) did they stop.....
Yep...I am gonna download it...once I figure out which group will sub it ;)
Hi,
I just wanted to know if anyone if going to sub Ghost in the Shell 2nd gig
GITS is licensed, for a long time now.
No idea on Paranoid Agent
GITS is licensed, for a long time now.
No idea on Paranoid Agent
That doesnt stop people from subbing it, and paranoia agent is probably licensed (geneon usa appears in the trailer).
Mephisto03
2004-01-04, 04:41
If I can find a translator that would actually take on this series, I would get this series behind a team.
Actually as some of you know Anime-kraze was one of the groups doing Ghost in the Shell before requested by Bandai. I actually just decided to go straight to Bandai themselves and ask them about Season 2. And They have licensed it, and will be out in full force to get after fansubbers again like Gundam Seed and Ghost in the Shell. Apparently Ghost in the shell is their big one they really are going after people for. Mostly because it was pre licensed and I guess its a higher end or something according to Jerry (Hes the Marketing Manager for Bandai). I am in contact with them on a regular basis because nobody wants to start to sub and then BAM be asked to stop. I Do know for sure if you slap yer name on GITs you will be called out on it. So be very cautious, I know last season They were even talking about using legal action against fansubbers for Ghost in the shell and Gundam seed after warnings. Just wanted to let people know!
Well if it comes on DVD soon after it aired...I have no problem buying it on DVD...if not I hope some1 subs it :heh:
Hey Zerox, how DO you get in contact with licencing companies?
Just wondering...
Actually they originally contacted me and ask to speak to a rep of Anime-kraze on th ephone, and well I got to call Bandai Inc hehe. Was fun times ^_^, he left me his e-mail and phone # for future contact purposes. You can also find him in #askjerry on mircx sometimes its his channel.
SirCanealot
2004-01-06, 07:37
Well I'm betting SOMEONE will sub GITS 2nd Gig. It will be intresting to see what Bandai will do if they do. If they want to, I'm sure clever people can easily hide themselves under a few rocks and stop Bandai from doing much to them.
I wish Bandai would just hurry up with Seed and GITS:SAC. The second series is already starting out in Japan and theres been little news on the R1 release of the second. Same with Seed :(
Briareos
2004-01-06, 08:16
And it's probably better that they stay silent, rather than announcing a date, only to have the releases delayed for some unforseen reason.
Still I can't wait to buy the R1s (although I am). ;)
The dreamer
2004-01-06, 16:15
I don't think parainoia is licenssed for now, geneon is the co-productor i think...
I wait this one whith sooooo impatience !!! febreary is soooo far away ....argh !
Satoshi Kon is my prophet !!!!!!
I don't think parainoia is licenssed for now, geneon is the co-productor i think...
Uh....if geneon USA was the co-producer/co-funder, that would mean it is licensed by them. (Whether they confirm or deny it *cough* Texhnolyze *cough*)
JediNight
2004-01-07, 01:22
It's best to just leave pre-licensed series alone. For one, you would definitely be a total bootlegger by subbing a pre-licensed series. Also, its probably 5x as risky when Bandai is involved knowing they've taken the gloves off with cutting down groups trying to do their series.
If you ask me, I say the digisubbing community as a whole needs to just totally leave pre-licensed series alone. Then the companies can see how much the R1 sales drop for the pre-licensed titles that never got a fansub for them. Well, besides something like GITS which is widely known from the movie of course. If Paranoia Agent is indeed pre-licensed that would be a good example. The website is intentionally sketchy on details about the show, and you really have no way of telling what the series is like therefore... so if groups avoid subbing it, whose gonna shell out cash on a series they might not like?
You are giving fansubs entirely too much credit in the success or failure of a series.
Mephisto03
2004-01-07, 02:49
You are giving fansubs entirely too much credit in the success or failure of a series.
But seriously, how many anime series would you know about and like now compared to if there was no way to preview and you didn't buy dvd rips and had to wait for u.s. dvd or cartoon network release. Cause you know, even now with it being "big" there isn't that much media attention to it at all. If it wasnt for fansub I wouldn't know about 80% of what I have.
But seriously, how many anime series would you know about and like now compared to if there was no way to preview and you didn't buy dvd rips and had to wait for u.s. dvd or cartoon network release. Cause you know, even now with it being "big" there isn't that much media attention to it at all. If it wasnt for fansub I wouldn't know about 80% of what I have.
mephisto's totally right. if it werent for fansubbers most of us would still be equating anime to pokemon/digimon/monster ranchers.
fansubbers are like wat radio is to music.
mephisto's totally right. if it werent for fansubbers most of us would still be equating anime to pokemon/digimon/monster ranchers.
fansubbers are like wat radio is to music.
You mean anime *isn't* all Pokemon/digimon/monster ranchers or yaoi? Gawd I guess I'll have to stop watching it.
Mephisto03
2004-01-07, 13:59
You mean anime *isn't* all Pokemon/digimon/monster ranchers or yaoi? Gawd I guess I'll have to stop watching it.
LOL, but you get what i mean though right. The younger kids (in the us) ho only know about cartoon network and maybe tech v get to see very very limited series. what have we had, pokemon, digimon, monster rancher, cowboy bebop, trigun, inuyasha, gundam wing maybe some other ones who don't go online to talk about anime or search for toher stuff would never know without fansubs. Cause then what friend would be able to say you have you seen naruto, ohh man its awesome. I know i wouldn't, never heard of naruto till ep 43 and i'm sure without fansubs mostly everyone here wouldn't either. I think companys should give fansubs more credit and push there governments and others against bootleg dvds who are really making money off them, not us.
microlith
2004-01-07, 14:25
Bandai getting the various Gundam series and Pioneer getting Tenchi on Cartoon Network in one fell swoop did more for anime than really any other effort beforehand including Fansubs (I'll bet digisubs are so common now because of a percentage of anime fans that followed the stuff on CN in and joined digisub groups. The groups today are _absolutely not_ the groups that were around years ago.)
And now there's a pile of stuff on Tech TV and Cartoon Network, and there's a Video-On-Demand channel by ADV running on some networks.
It's totally possible to watch tons of anime without being into fansubs. To give you an idea, Within the first 6 days of 2004 more anime DVDs were released in R1 than were released in all of 1997. This explosion, however, is not likely as tied to fansubs as it is to the massive exposure anime as a whole got on CN.
Fansubs have helped, sure, but don't go over-estimating their importance. They're quickly moving from help to hindrance (as we can see) and what with companies like Bandai Entertainment and Geneon USA *funding* the creation of series in Japan, likely becoming unnecessary (as the purpose of fansubs was exposure, but you don't need to expose something that's guaranteed a release.)
The dreamer
2004-01-07, 14:36
Humph, maybe for states !
But in french if you don't have fansub ... the only choice is buy Dvd HK whith image and sub like shit (and very expenssive too arghhhh), ... and the dvd edition is not very devellope in french, for exemple i desesperate see Renmei or texhnolyse in french ...sob !
And i think it's the same for some other country ..in fact, all the country other than north american or est asian ...
So, fansub is good ! don't take the american for the only country consumme them !
Well Jedi Knight mentioned the R1 market so my statement was in reference to that.
That's good for you that fansubs were so helpful, but for most people they go on word of mouth from friends or tv viewings. Most people still are on 56K, so the abilitly to get fansubs is severly crippled. The biggest selling series are the ones that have aired on tv. Now we even have anime magazines like Newtype and Animerica that give previews and reviews of series, then add in sites like animeondvd.com.
Just from going around to different boards and such, a decent amount of fansub watchers don't have any intentions of buying a series no matter what. They will come up with many different excuses to not buy a series like the dub will ruin, the subtitles won't be correct (like the fansubbers are always correct), they will change the names, and other things.
Do you really think that everyone in the R1 region that downloaded Gundam Seed will end up buying it?
Too bad Mircolith beat me to all the good points. :P
Just for S&G
anime on tv
DBZ, YYH, RK, CB, Blue Gender, FLCL, Reign, Inuyasha, Trigun, KOTZ, Boogiepop Phantom, Serial Experiments Lain, Betterman, Kikaider, Cyborg 009, Banner of the Stars, Crest of Stars, Geneshaft, Soultaker, Gatekeepers 21, Dual, Silent Mobius, CB:The movie, Fist of North Star, Dirty Pair, Goku Midnight Eye, Blue Seed, Hellsing, Ghost in the Shell, Patlabor. That just off the top of my head of anime that has aired in the US on various channels.
Mephisto03
2004-01-08, 02:51
you also have to realize that most american tv viewers do not have tech tv. As much as were just getting into digital cable now because its being forced tech tv and the others must be bought. The average plan is already around 30-50 for basic cable. start adding on movie channels, kids channels, ppv and on demand and you can easily have a 70 dollar a month cable bill. The amount of anime being shown in japan tahts good and the amount of whats in the states is a drastic diffrence and could be better here. we get alot of reruns, ALOT of reruns which makes the shows more annoying to watch after a while. Plus the fact they only want to show them if there dubbed makes it worse since it takes so long to go after its finally been aired in japan then shown some interest by the us companys, then put into production and given an airing time.
I see what you mean about going around to forums and those people not wanting dvds. but i also know most people who i talk to that like anime will buy the dvds. My thing about dvds is i think companys could and should put the effort we do into making them (subs) look good and enjoyable to watch. There really is no need to use the same font and yellow color shuved almost halfway up the screen in big letters. Honestly how hard is it for us to change the font? umm, one click, way new font, new color, looks great. and even some subs that use multiple colors for diffrent people or on/off screen talking makes the diffrence. Also its like any forum online you'll find the extreme people who break the rules. I goto quite a few diffrent genre forums (car, video games, anime, computer animation, computer tech) and thats where i'll find all the people trying something new or illegal to be on the edge. But going out and meeting people and talking about these things is a diffrent story, most people don't do the same stuff people do on forums or even know about the many diffrent things out there.
I stick by my word though, fansubs help boost sales and popularity for a series. If someone is going to come down on a series by fansubbers who make no cash off of it and there going to argue its hurting there business then I can give them many sites that are offering there dvds ripped which are taking there money. But, whatever floats there boat I say, if they don't want there stuff to get out world wide except through years of production, contracts, some sort of word of mouth and lose money in the time thats there business not mine. In reality they should be trying to work with fansubbers to offer some sort way to compensate how we do things instead of trying to wipe them out all together.
microlith
2004-01-08, 08:13
The only reason it seems to "take so long" is because you're looking ahead and impatient. If you didn't pay attention to what was coming out in Japan you'd STILL have a deluge of stuff to go over.
Even then, companies like Pioneer are moving fast as hell to get stuff out, mere months after they're finished in Japan.
As for the satellite comment, be sure that the Japanese don't get it all free. Scrapped Princess and Onegai Twins aired on WOWOW, which is a channel you have to subscribe to on satellite. And that's just two of a multitude of series.
The reason DVD subs are done the way they are is because they're designed from the start to be readable on a TV and look professional. Half of what fansubbers use these days I honestly consider crap, what with the fancy fonts, dumb effects, and irritating colors.
That and it's difficult to move in the DVD subtitle spec, the most complex subs these days can be seen on TRSI's KareKano dvds, and even those aren't flawless (since many players suck.) Subtitles on DVDs can have a max of 4 colors onscreen at any time. One is always keyed transparent, so that gives you 3 to work with. You can have 30fps frames but as I recall with KareKano dvd 1, TRSI found some bugs in the authoring software that created glitches. Mind you, it was the most advanced DVD subtitle authoring software out there.
Honestly, fansubs are becoming more and more limited in their necessity and usefulness. As the companies get more involved in the funding of shows, its presence grows in the media (what with preview discs and Newtype USA type things,) people aren't going to NEED fansubs because they'll have so much other stuff to keep up with that dashing ahead like many people are won't be possible or necessary.
As for ripping them off, they get nicked ahead of time by fansubs, during the release by DVD Rippers, and afterwards by bootleggers who copy their dvds 1:1 and sell them. How would you react if your entire industry was surrounded by people who somehow felt that they deserve something from nothing, even if you spent all your time making the product?
Don't forget that the Japanese and American (and UK, and Austrailian, French, etc...) companies are _ALL_ in the same boat.
I just took a look around and according to an article on zdnet India (well 2 year old) only 9.3 million homes have broadband internet of any kind. Now compare this to Techtv which is in 40 million. So there is more of a likelyhood for a person to have techtv than have broadband.
You can't really compare the anime on Japanese tv to the amount on American tv. The anime is a home grown product so of course the Japanese will get more anime than us. The difference is that stations have to buy the rights to any given series while in Japan most shows are produced similar to how it works for American made shows.
The dubbing is an essential part of anime's success. It allows easy access for everyone. Everyone doesn't love the Japanese language or think that the dubbing is horrendous. Add into the fact that when anime was available in vhs format with dub only and sub only, dubs outsold subs 8 to 1. There aren't any numbers for the dvd format since it includes both formats.
andrixnet
2004-01-21, 09:08
One big question for anime fans out there : (companies watch out for this one too!)
Assuming one disregards (for the sake of the argument) the financial part involved in getting to watch an anime series or film, also assume you do not understand japanese.
A) would you get the one distributed locally by XYZ (either vhs/cd/dvd/etc or TV broadcast), an anime that has been dubbed (many questionably) with changed dialogs, changed character names, many scenes censored//cut out
or
B) would you rather get (by whatever means available) the anime in it's original form, subbed by fans ???
Remember the butchered version of Nausicaa as Warriors of the Wind (done officially by a company, but without the approval or knowledge of the author Miyazaki)
For those who live in Italy and have seen E'quasy magia Johhny (aka Kimagure Orange Road) or Il mistero della pietra azzurra (aka Nadia and the secret of the blue water) have you seen the uncut versions? Episodes left out, subplots cut out minutes at a time, altered scenes, changed dialog, etc.
A true anime fan would prefer A or B ?
microlith
2004-01-21, 10:49
A true anime fan would put a little more thought into things, instead of listening to you.
would you get the one distributed locally by XYZ (either vhs/cd/dvd/etc or TV broadcast), an anime that has been dubbed (many questionably) with changed dialogs, changed character names, many scenes censored//cut out
This is rarely the case. The far majority of anime distributed on DVD is unedited, and contains both dub AND sub.
the butchered version of Nausicaa as Warriors of the Wind (done officially by a company, but without the approval or knowledge of the author Miyazaki)
This was done by Harmony Gold and Carl Macek, as I recall. It's why there was a serious licensing moratorium on ALL Ghibli films for US release for a LONG time, and why Disney's contract contains a no-editing clause.
A true anime fan would, of course, prefer a release as close to the original as possible, but being a thinking human being would like to spend a reasonable amount of money to get quality and support those who make what they like.
Fansubs are NOT the supremely wonderful thing you present them as. Most if not all you want can easily be found in a legit release, if not in your country then elsewhere.
Well I don't think I've ever seen such a leading question like that in my life. Why don't go ahead and say that the anime companies support killing little kittens and puppies while you are at it.
andrixnet
2004-01-21, 14:45
Well I don't think I've ever seen such a leading question like that in my life. Why don't go ahead and say that the anime companies support killing little kittens and puppies while you are at it.
Don't miss the point. It has nothing to do with the anime authors, the companies that actually produce them. It's all about the distributors.
Same thing. You obviously set up the question to get people to favor fansubs.
Beyonder24
2004-01-21, 17:28
LMF and Tachikoma will do gits season 2
#lmf-fans
mirx.com
but dont expect it anytime soon
testing123
2004-01-22, 00:56
A true anime fan would prefer A or B ?
A true anime fan would prefer to get the version the original creators licensed and approved by the original creators. The original creators gave permission to the license holders to add subtitles and modify the show according to the terms of the license, and whether or not you like it is irrelevant. It's their piece of art, and they should choose how they want to present that piece of art to the world.
A true anime fan would prefer to get a high-quality DVD, rather than a compressed video file ripped from somebody's TV feed. Cable TV is sure better than rabbit ears, but it's still no match for DVD quality.
A true anime fan would prefer to get a DVD where they can turn off the subtitles, so they can appreciate the full, true video image without obscuring words. It doesn't happen that often, but you can certainly find shows where the subtitles just get in the way of important or interesting things on the screen. Being able to turn off subtitles lets you enjoy the video the way it was originally presented, and you can't do this with the typical hard subbed anime you'll find on the Internet.
andrixnet
2004-01-22, 02:40
Same thing. You obviously set up the question to get people to favor fansubs.
More like : after seeing a crappy dub, what would you do?
Yeah, I guess it's a bit biased. First time I got hooked on anime was when seeing lots of shows on Italia UNO some years back. It was both nice and so-so.
The dub done by MEDIASET featured the same voice actor for most main young male character in each series (the guy had a very distinctive voice and he also hosted some shows for kids). Hearing the same voice in a classic like story, an action packed high-tech/mecha adventure or a soft romance series simply made it impossible to relate to any of the characters. Ugh.
Then, thanks to a couple of friends, I saw some anime that I've seen on TV back then. Fansubs, uncut. The difference was enormous. Huge. I still had some episodes taped and on a couple of them I did a comparison. One was simply 5+ minutes shorter. A, forgot to mention that all character names were changed in the dub... Music was cut or replaced by domestic music. And some anime have awsome soundtracks.
Since then I even fouond websites about what scenes were cut for some series.
At the time, had I had the possibility to get them on tape also, I would have. Today, after seeing how they altered them I wouldn't touch any anime that has MEDIASET involvement in the release.
Don't get me wrong ! I'll buy a serious DVD release of many titles as soon as it becomes available locally. Some of them _ONLY_ because I seen them on fansub before.
(for example I've seen Onegai Twins on fansub in a version that was very high quality divx encode. still, right now I'm looking for it on dvd)
But I won't buy a release that was cut, censored, poorly dubbed, character names changed, music replaced, etc.
Neither will I place an international order that becomes 3-5 times the original price tag even before adding taxes. With that much increase it's not worth anymore.
I hated the german version of the Flintstones because of the dub.
It's been an year now since I last watched some some of the classic shows on Cartoon Network (on cable locally) simply because they started dubbing them locally with the most horrible results ever!
Yeah, I like to collect. But I won't collect such crap.
andrixnet
2004-01-22, 03:03
Humph, maybe for states !
But in french if you don't have fansub ... the only choice is buy Dvd HK whith image and sub like shit (and very expenssive too arghhhh), ... and the dvd edition is not very devellope in french, for exemple i desesperate see Renmei or texhnolyse in french ...sob !
And i think it's the same for some other country ..in fact, all the country other than north american or est asian ...
So, fansub is good ! don't take the american for the only country consumme them !
Right on! As usual, americans think they're they only ones that matter on this planet. yuck
SirCanealot
2004-01-22, 06:00
A true anime fan would prefer to get the version the original creators licensed and approved by the original creators.
No, a true anime fan is just someone who watches and enjoys anime. Buying stuff like DVDs is optional. Look it up in the dictionary, if you see the word "support" under "fan" I'll be very suprised.
Wtf are you people talking about anyway? Bad dub this, bad dub that. Who gives a toss? This is Bandai we're talking about here. The GITS DVDs are going to be dub/sub/uncut gaurentied!
Right on! As usual, americans think they're they only ones that matter on this planet. yuck
And as usual, people forget that ordering American DVDs from DVDPacific.com and paying to get it shiped here is actually cheeper than me buying PalUK R2 disks off a online store.
testing123
2004-01-22, 07:53
No, a true anime fan is just someone who watches and enjoys anime. Buying stuff like DVDs is optional. Look it up in the dictionary, if you see the word "support" under "fan" I'll be very suprised.
I never said anything about support. I'm talking about maintaining artistic integrity, and preserving the intent of the original authors. Licensing allows anime creators to control how their works are translated and otherwise changed to suit the needs of others. A fan should be prepared to accept these choices made by the producers. The fact that many licensing agreements involve financial remuneration is relatively unimportant.
Put another way: the original creators should get to decide as much about how their own works are presented as possible. If the original creators only wanted English dubs, then a real fan would respect and appreciate this, even though they might not personally like it. A true fan doesn't just try to maximize their own enjoyment. A true fan should be able to appreciate a work of art even if it's not personally enjoyable to them.
Of all the dvds released each year only a few titles are actually treated like. Last year the only non-kiddy title that had changes like that was Initial D. The rest of the titles released had subs, dubs, and accurate translations. If you don't like the dub for one series doesn't mean every title will have a bad dub and you can always turn on the subtitle track.
Ok lets think about what what people generally want. When people buy dvd's they want to get the whole thing, they want to see something from the begining till the end. People pay 20-30 bucks for a new release movie and get the whole things plus some nice extras. But were talking about anime series here and paying 20-30 $ does not give you the whole things. Not only that they dont get as much extras as one would like.
I must admit anime is an expensive hobby when you start buying them. I understand why people tend to choose fansubs and dvd rips over the actuall stuff. paying 100+ $ for the whole thing is hard and a lot of the casual watcher only watches it ONCE!
As for groups fansubbing licensed stuff, i think that people are generally too impatient to wait for the official releases. I knew about gits:sac ever since i read about it in newtype and its been aprox a year since i read about it and i still havent heard or seen anything about it.
Ok lets think about what what people generally want. When people buy dvd's they want to get the whole thing, they want to see something from the begining till the end. People pay 20-30 bucks for a new release movie and get the whole things plus some nice extras. But were talking about anime series here and paying 20-30 $ does not give you the whole things. Not only that they dont get as much extras as one would like.
I must admit anime is an expensive hobby when you start buying them. I understand why people tend to choose fansubs and dvd rips over the actuall stuff. paying 100+ $ for the whole thing is hard and a lot of the casual watcher only watches it ONCE!
As for groups fansubbing licensed stuff, i think that people are generally too impatient to wait for the official releases. I knew about gits:sac ever since i read about it in newtype and its been aprox a year since i read about it and i still havent heard or seen anything about it.
If you don't want to buy it, you can still rent the DVD... and since you're only watching it once, it won't make a difference. You can also buy the DVD and sell it used on eBay when you don't want it anymore. And nowadays, anime series DVD DO have extras, and sometimes lots of them, on the DVDs, and it's not that you're getting less than a movie. I mean... granted the anime will take time to finish, but overall the anime is also providing more visual content than a movie.
Mephisto03
2004-01-22, 16:30
LMF and Tachikoma will do gits season 2
#lmf-fans
mirx.com
but dont expect it anytime soon
Pnly problem with them is they have no bots and there bt blows. You can rarely get a seed off them to host and anyone who does get the ep won't keep there seed open long enough for you to get off of. It takes me 20 minutes to get an anime off any other group but for them 165 hours off there bt, which is just the eta and usually takes more like 2 weeks to get something off them. I like there qaulity and there subs but they really REALLY need to find a better distro system.
If you don't want to buy it, you can still rent the DVD... and since you're only watching it once, it won't make a difference. You can also buy the DVD and sell it used on eBay when you don't want it anymore. And nowadays, anime series DVD DO have extras, and sometimes lots of them, on the DVDs, and it's not that you're getting less than a movie. I mean... granted the anime will take time to finish, but overall the anime is also providing more visual content than a movie.
I was going to suggest to people to go out and rent them but you must also take in consideration that large rental chains like blockbuster dont carry much anime titles to be able to satisfy the casual viewer. I was lucky to have a rental place dedicated to anime only but unfortunately for me, the guy got tired of it and closed :(
You also have a point there about new anime titles containing more extras, and i'm glad they do, but its a small chunck of dvd's that do offer extras. Well I think it's kind of hard to put a lot of extras in each volume that is released.
I was going to suggest to people to go out and rent them but you must also take in consideration that large rental chains like blockbuster dont carry much anime titles to be able to satisfy the casual viewer. I was lucky to have a rental place dedicated to anime only but unfortunately for me, the guy got tired of it and closed :(
You also have a point there about new anime titles containing more extras, and i'm glad they do, but its a small chunck of dvd's that do offer extras. Well I think it's kind of hard to put a lot of extras in each volume that is released.
All the ones I've been buying have extras (trailers, cleaning op/ed, etc) It's the older ones that don't.
And if blockbuster carries stuff like Haibane Renmei, I think it'll carry a good selection.
Oh well, worst case you can watch cartoon network or something.
Beyonder24
2004-01-22, 18:41
Pnly problem with them is they have no bots and there bt blows. You can rarely get a seed off them to host and anyone who does get the ep won't keep there seed open long enough for you to get off of. It takes me 20 minutes to get an anime off any other group but for them 165 hours off there bt, which is just the eta and usually takes more like 2 weeks to get something off them. I like there qaulity and there subs but they really REALLY need to find a better distro system.
yeah, just have to dl them right when they are released. i dl 25/26 at 600+kbps last night.
I hate to hear that this is pre licensed.
As far as an subbing vs licensed goes, I would not own any series I have not seen licesend.
It goes for every DVD I own. I have never purchased a movie I have not seen.
For me, goin to a movie, $10, decide if you want to own this movie, or wait till video, $5, or even less cable free (I work for the cable co. before you start on cable cost overall :heh: ). As oposed to $30 for a DVD.
As some could say, I could just download it and burn it onto CD. then be done with it. Yet doing that has a few problems. I can only watch it on my PC, and not my wide screen. I am limited on where I can play it (yes I watch my DVD's at friends houses, odd I know), and in what format (I love subs, most of my friends like dubs DVD's usualy solve this (and wo to the DVD that only has 1 audio track (and double wo if that is english))). Finaly the quality is crap (sorry but even the best AVI files hardly compair to DVD quality, although I have noticed this is much less true in animation vs live action).
So I do actualy buy DVD's, yet I will be damed before I pay $30 for somthing I have never seen, or realy heard of. Much less when you get into series, then you looking at 50-200+ for a collection of animation that in the US you will probobly never see any where else (unless you have some otaku friends, seriously my friends do not know what a service I provide screening all this for them :) ) That or as mentioned, pokemon, digimon, sailor moon, dragon ball Z, ect on cartoon network.
If I could rent anime DVD's at any video store arround here I would (and have) yet the most anime I have seen in any video rental store here is 3. . . yes 3 whole movies.
Perhaps this is differnt in japan, but here in the US, without the fan subbers I would probly own 1 - 4 anime DVD's max. . . the only ones I can think of my friends having shown me beeing ninja scroll and GTS (the start of my obsession, poor fools knew not what they would make).
Of course companies I guess do not want to only make $ off decent shows with replay value. I am quite sure they want to make a profit on all of it.
But this does leave me in a personal delema . . . should I buy SAC:2nd gig when it is released here or not. 26 episode so probly 2 DVD, $50 - 60 for somthing I know only by reputation. I probobly will buy it, only on GTS SAC beeing my favorit all time series I would expect the 2nd to at least be decent. But you can bet your (insert any bodly part here) that I will be scanning for fansubbed downloads of this fevorently before buying it. . . (well that and the year or so I have to wait before american DVD release forces some free searching time onto my hands)
Miner Arobar
2004-01-30, 14:37
My two cents real quick. If you have a hard time getting a hold of anime b/c your local blockbuster has only 4 anime dvds, I used to use Netflix and they have a lot of dvds for rent. I'm not trying to be an advertiser or anything I'm just saying they had quite a selection. I thought it was a pretty good deal.
microlith
2004-01-30, 17:27
I hate to hear that this is pre licensed.
All I can say is: Hate it with all your might, but you may end up wearing yourself down as this happens more and more.
complich8
2004-01-30, 23:35
But this does leave me in a personal delema . . . should I buy SAC:2nd gig when it is released here or not. 26 episode so probly 2 DVD, $50 - 60 for somthing I know only by reputation.
Wow ..... 2 dvd's for 26 eps? How many anime dvds have you bought? are they incredibly crappy bootlegs? Yikes...
The most I've ever seen a legitimate dvd release have on it was the first 2 discs of Revolutionary Girl Utena, CPM's release. They had 7 on one, 6 on the other. The video quality was crap because of the shortage of bitrate -- though it made some fans happy because they got about 3-4 dvd's worth of episodes on a two discs.
You'll usually see 3-5 episodes on a dvd. Lately I've been happy to see Bandai pursuing the 4-5 range, which puts a 26 ep series like WHR nicely on a mere 6 dvd's. Jerry said something about ... what was it, eating his shoe or something (?) if bandai put Gundam SEED at 3 eps/disc. I don't have logs from that long ago anymore... but something like that.
Anyway, yeah, I dunno where you're getting your estimates on disc stuff, but a season of gits with a decent retailer (at say 25 bucks a disc, not the best you can do but a solid estimate) is probably gonna set you back in the range of $150 USD, give or take a bit.
Then when you think .... an imported OST is running about $40 now, and with new domestic CD's (an hour of music) starting at around $12, with the exchange rate what it is .... $150 for a localized dvd set of 26 eps is pretty dang good. 12 hours of video entertainment for 150 bucks or take your 150 bucks and get 12 hours of audio only entertainment (if you're lucky) for the same price...
Wow ..... 2 dvd's for 26 eps? How many anime dvds have you bought? are they incredibly crappy bootlegs? Yikes...
The most I've ever seen a legitimate dvd release have on it was the first 2 discs of Revolutionary Girl Utena, CPM's release. They had 7 on one, 6 on the other. The video quality was crap because of the shortage of bitrate -- though it made some fans happy because they got about 3-4 dvd's worth of episodes on a two discs.
Well you should first of all factor in the time those dvds were made. Back then dvds of that quality were acceptable.
Try using a more recent example. Like Funimation's Fruits Basket dvds. They have 6 episodes on a disc and the video quality is superb.
DrWho2002
2004-01-31, 01:35
Umbrae's talking about the R2 DVD releases of GitS-SAC. They can't really be compared to R1 type releases. The R2's come out with 2 eps per DVD for 6000 yen each. Takai!
complich8
2004-01-31, 01:37
Well you should first of all factor in the time those dvds were made. Back then dvds of that quality were acceptable.
Try using a more recent example. Like Funimation's Fruits Basket dvds. They have 6 episodes on a disc and the video quality is superb.
yah ... you're right. I'll take your word for it on the quality, at the moment -- got other things to watch. 6 or even 7 is doable with reasonably good quality given good authoring and the right type of content .... but 13 eps on a dvd? That's a bit unheard-of, ya? At this point, I'd call 7 on a dvd kind of the edge case.
But that's all just technicalities anyway. 7's about the practical limit. I don't see a whole lot of "oh, here's 8 on a dvd, and the quality's perfect". 3-5 is the norm, and the likelihood of setting your price range in the "between $50 and $60 USD for a whole 26 ep series" field and walking away with anything isn't going to happen very often, especially with flashy ultra-detailed high-motion animation like a series like Gits:SAC brings to the table, and the fact that these companies like to make money, too.
<edit> Dr. Who makes an excellent point. I might have been misinterpreting what Umbrae said, I guess? Lack of prepositions tends to make sentences ambiguous, and the way he said it sounded like he was saying "2 dvds in the series" not "2 episodes per dvd".
Mephisto03
2004-01-31, 01:45
Well people, to your delight the first ep HAS been subbed. Sorry I can't post licensed links on here but it is out there, I'm getting it right now. 204 seeds 700 leechers. I recommend anyone who liked the first season to get the second, its freakin great!
I would expect 4 or 5 episodes for Seed, if bandai's past Gundam series release hold up. The only time they had 3 episodes on a dvd were for their oavs.
Well you should first of all factor in the time those dvds were made. Back then dvds of that quality were acceptable.
Try using a more recent example. Like Funimation's Fruits Basket dvds. They have 6 episodes on a disc and the video quality is superb.
Um... Fruits Basket comes on dual layered DVDs, which is why the quality is so great. The Utena probably came on single layered DVDs, plus the masters have nowhere near the quality of the Furuba digital masters.
:topicoff: Last time I checked this guy : "I_FUCKING_HATE_CLUELESSNESS" from #lmf-fans@irc.mircx.com carries a bunch of raws and some releases as well.
Mephisto03
2004-01-31, 22:24
:topicoff: Last time I checked this guy : "I_FUCKING_HATE_CLUELESSNESS" from #lmf-fans@irc.mircx.com carries a bunch of raws and some releases as well.
He carries alot of releases. And is a good source. Also hes just not in #lmf-fans.
Also there is now 3! groups that have the first ep out. I downlaoded all of them and will say this.
Konspira and raver: Good overall, video quality was good but there is some choppyness in the video and your not gonna get around it with a diffrent codec. The title looked nice but sometimes you'll get lost in the translation. Overall 3/5. Just needs improvement on encoding to get rid of chop and also shorten titles from 3 lines to 1-1 and a half.
NT: Video quality was good without as much chop as the first. The only big thing I hated about this was the smaller font on the screen and the bold purple color for major and bold orange for batou. Also everyone seemd to have there own color (chief - beige, prime minister - red, other fat guy - yellow) The trans seemed ok. I can't really grade on exactness because I don't know japanese but I'm baseing it off how good I can understand whats going on. Overall though 2/5. Just to annoying to watch with so many colors and whatnot.
LMF: Probably the best of the three hands down. There was chop that I saw once but that was it. And also when the truck pulls in the back seems to keep moving forward or something, all I know is it looks wierd but thats it in the video from what I saw. The trans was very clear and nice titles (2 diffrent colors from actual speaking and then also when talking through there heads lol) Also it was very easy to understand and got the point out better then the other two I think. Like they say though on the bt page the op isn't trans'd right and will be fixed for 3-4. I'm guessing they have 2 ready soon then? Overall though 4/5. Some things can be fixed but not much at all.
IMHO, people who will buy DVDs will buy them even they have watched it on fansub. Do you really think people who don't buy DVDs will start buying them if there's no fansub? I really don't think so. Killing fansubs will only decrease the sales generated from the fans who prefer to see the goods before pruchasing and will not get additional sales from people who never buy DVDs. Don't get me wrong. I buy DVDs and lots of them actually. I spent on average US$400 a month on R1 and R2 DVDs but about 80% of my purchases were based on my previous viewing experiences. If there were no fansub, well, I guess I'll be saving a lot of money on anime. :)
IMHO, people who will buy DVDs will buy them even they have watched it on fansub. Do you really think people who don't buy DVDs will start buying them if there's no fansub? I really don't think so. Killing fansubs will only decrease the sales generated from the fans who prefer to see the goods before pruchasing and will not get additional sales from people who never buy DVDs. Don't get me wrong. I buy DVDs and lots of them actually. I spent on average US$400 a month on R1 and R2 DVDs but about 80% of my purchases were based on my previous viewing experiences. If there were no fansub, well, I guess I'll be saving a lot of money on anime. :)
I have made in the area of 200+ DVD purchases including R1's, R2's and various R4's, none have been based apon prior Fansub veiwing. Infact, one series I'd consider buying that I've seen on fansub would be one piece, but seen as that sint out yet and seen as it would of gone on TV anyway and attracted me there, it'd a moot point.
Alright, so you need fansubs before you buy it. Who's to say everyone else is supposed to? Do you need DVD ripped anime ontop of 20 releases to decide if you will buy it or not? Do you need to download shows which actually cost people money to view (Ghost in the Shell, for this case)? If anything, the "I should get it for free because Mr. Japan does too" is totally irrelevant. And to assume all Japanese people download raws is phooey and stupid, otherwise they wouldn't bother making it PPV in the first place.
Anyway, most Sunrise products keep a rather similar feel and energy around them anyway, so if you did a bit of research and found out that *insert anime title here* was also done by *insert director/animation studio/whatever here*, that you'll more than likely buy that show out of Sunrise's reputation alone. I know I did, but that's not to say everyone should do what I do.
Lor
Alright, so you need fansubs before you buy it. Who's to say everyone else is supposed to? Do you need DVD ripped anime ontop of 20 releases to decide if you will buy it or not? Do you need to download shows which actually cost people money to view (Ghost in the Shell, for this case)? If anything, the "I should get it for free because Mr. Japan does too" is totally irrelevant. And to assume all Japanese people download raws is phooey and stupid, otherwise they wouldn't bother making it PPV in the first place.
Did I say everyone else is supposed to watch fansub before buying? I think you didn't get my point. I said if there was no fansub, the companies will lose customers like me but not gain any new customers. If you don't base your purchase on prior viewing, that's great, but that's you. I know people who buy 40+ DVDs a month that doesn't watch any fansubs too but those (including you) are the people who will buy DVDs no matter what and this group of people is outside the discussion here since we are talking about if fansub hurts the actual sales of the licensed DVDs. People who want to buy DVDs will buy and people who only watch fansubs will never buy any DVDs. They will wait for DVDrips instead if there was no fansubs.
microlith
2004-02-01, 11:49
I have a feeling that the number of customers gained by fansubs is actually a lot lower than you might imagine, considering that the majority of their buyers listen to the dub.
Thus the only thing they really DO is lose buyers to people who download MKVs and OGMs of the original DVDs. I'm sure that with the way exposure is being increased by the companies themselves (Newtype USA, various preview DVDs and stuff showing on CN/TechTV/Anime Network, etc.) that exposure of this sort is getting much rarer in its necessity.
Some shows need fansubbing but to say that subbing things like Stellvia, SutePri, and Gundam (any high profile show/series really) are necessary to bring in buyers (at least enough to matter) is laughable.
Mephisto03
2004-02-01, 12:01
Honestly your not giving fansubs a fair shit and are probably basing your opionon at looking at leecher numbers all the time since thats a way of checking out how "popular" a series is. I know I know but lets take naruto for example. It easily hits 40K downloads every week. This doesn't include people who just use irc bots, xnews or word of mouth to other friends who don't go online and download anime and just get it from friends like all my friends get from me and other sources. Case in point, the people in naruto are considering brining the games to the U.S. now because of the huge interest by american anime fans. How in world would this be possible at all without fansubs? As much as he didn't give credit to fansubs when announced why would you, he would publicly be thanking something "illegal" but also without it there would not be such a high world recognition of this series.
I have a feeling that the number of customers gained by fansubs is actually a lot lower than you might imagine, considering that the majority of their buyers listen to the dub.
Majority of the anime buyers? Are you talking about Pokemon, Yugioh or are you talking about Ai yori aoshi, Tinay snow fairy sugar or Mao-chan? My feeling is that the dub happy people are mostly the ones that get their anime from TV channels and are light anime buyers. Indeed, TV exposure increases the sales of the DVDs and most of the increased sales are from dub viewers. However, how many of the series are actually shown on TV so far? Most of the serious buyers I know are sub viewers. They don't neccessarily hate dubs but generally prefer to watch anime with sub. But of course, if you can find some kind of data to prove I'm wrong, please do enlighten us.
Thus the only thing they really DO is lose buyers to people who download MKVs and OGMs of the original DVDs. I'm sure that with the way exposure is being increased by the companies themselves (Newtype USA, various preview DVDs and stuff showing on CN/TechTV/Anime Network, etc.) that exposure of this sort is getting much rarer in its necessity.
What does fansubs have to do with DVDrips? I think you are stretching a bit. Are you saying that people who downloaded fansubs will most likely NOT buy DVDs and will download DVDrips for dubs? I'm quite lost on this one...
Some shows need fansubbing but to say that subbing things like Stellvia, SutePri, and Gundam (any high profile show/series really) are necessary to bring in buyers (at least enough to matter) is laughable.
I can't say about Gundam or GITS, but I wonder how many people knew Stellvia or Sutepri before they were fansubbed? Unless you follow manga/novel community in Japan very closely, I doubt you will know about those two shows. High profile series? How did they become high profile series?
Fansubs do promote anime series even for series like Gundam or GITS. Don't assume everyone has equal amount of knowledge of anime as you have and not everyone would buy DVDs just because it's well known. Even Gundam is so popular, it's not my cup of tea. Same goes for many other people. High profile anime does not equal neccessary purchase for me. I do agree that increasing TV exposure is the ultimate way to go. But until we can get the same exposure as in Japan (which I doubt we ever will), fansubs still play a role in promoting anime, high profile or not.
It is hard to actually say how much good a fansub can do? Out of those 40,000+ how many are actually going to buy the dvds when they come out?
A run on national tv is more likely to do more good than fansubs ever could. There could have been as much interest generated from runs in Newtype and other magazines. For every title that may need fansubs there probably is a title that doesn't need it.
edit.
Yes the majority of anime viewers are dub fanst. Just don't assume just because you and friends are repesentative of of the community at large. Before bilingual dvds, dubs outsold its subtitles counterpart 8:1. Consider that most anime fans are casual and have no interest in the Japanese language.
Majority of the anime buyers? Are you talking about Pokemon, Yugioh or are you talking about Ai yori aoshi, Tinay snow fairy sugar or Mao-chan? My feeling is that the dub happy people are mostly the ones that get their anime from TV channels and are light anime buyers. Indeed, TV exposure increases the sales of the DVDs and most of the increased sales are from dub viewers. However, how many of the series are actually shown on TV so far? Most of the serious buyers I know are sub viewers. They don't neccessarily hate dubs but generally prefer to watch anime with sub. But of course, if you can find some kind of data to prove I'm wrong, please do enlighten us.
Well I run an anime club at my highschool and more then half of the people there are dub fanatics. Why would they make a dub track if it didn't increase the sales?
Yes the majority of anime viewers are dub fanst. Just don't assume just because you and friends are repesentative of of the community at large. Before bilingual dvds, dubs outsold its subtitles counterpart 8:1. Consider that most anime fans are casual and have no interest in the Japanese language.
Read my post again. I said I felt SERIOUS anime buyers are mostly sub viewers. I'd really like to know how many casual viewers like to watch shows like AYA or Mao-chan? Before you put up the numbers of dubs and subs, please break down to shows that appeared on TV and the shows that only got DVD releases. I felt you can see a difference between the two sets. As I said, I might be wrong but that's just my feeling when I participated in many of the online forums.
And this thread is not a debate on subs and dubs so we should probably stop the dicussion here. My point is, dub viewers are mostly casual and light buyers and their source of anime is TV. Thus, TV explosure translates to much higher sales and most of the buyers of that series are indeed dub viewers. However, for less well-known, and less popular genre, most of the viewers are serious buyers and I believe fansub do play a certain role in this population.
Well I run an anime club at my highschool and more then half of the people there are dub fanatics. Why would they make a dub track if it didn't increase the sales?
I was not debating about dubs and subs. I was just pointing out that one needs to specify the majority of buyers of what series? Of course dubs add sales of the DVDs but I really think it depends on the series. How many dub fanatic club members in your highschool buy DVDs and how many per month?
What makes a person a serious anime buyer?
Anyway there is no way to classify who is serious and not. There is no way to quantify who watches subs and dubs, that why I listed numbers from the vhs days. Using online forums is not a true representative of the community at large since they are the vocal minority who have strong enough opinions to post.
complich8
2004-02-01, 15:14
What makes a person a serious anime buyer?
Anyway there is no way to classify who is serious and not. There is no way to quantify who watches subs and dubs, that why I listed numbers from the vhs days. Using online forums is not a true representative of the community at large since they are the vocal minority who have strong enough opinions to post.
I read somewhere from some DVD company -- was it bandai? maybe it was in #askjerry? I forget -- that the biggest thing they do is do the dub. Selling a subbed-only original audio dvd is a marketing disaster in the US, it's the dub that sells.
"Serious" anime buyers would be the people who are buying the most dvds, or buy dvds regularly. I'm not in that scope, because I only buy dvd's when I damned well feel like it .... a friend of mine buys the dvds for everything she has ever liked. I would call her a "serious" anime buyer -- she knows what she likes, she buys what she likes, and she's purchasing 6-8 anime dvd's per month. That's a hell of a lot more than I do.
Why does she go for the dvds over the fansubs or dvd rips? Simple.... she wants to watch it on her tv with minimal effort, and she likes the dubs.
I'd call a "serious" anime buyer someone who considers buying the dvds mandatory. Whether they're buying for the sub or the dub or the series itself, I don't know. But "serious" buyers are the ones who have complete series lying around, boxed sets of stuff, and consistently buy. I only know 3 of those offhand, 2 like dubs better, one likes subs better. The sample is too small and too biased to project any statistics from though... so I would say the discussion is moot.
Thanks for the input. That works for me as a definition of a serious fan.
I'd call a "serious" anime buyer someone who considers buying the dvds mandatory. Whether they're buying for the sub or the dub or the series itself, I don't know. But "serious" buyers are the ones who have complete series lying around, boxed sets of stuff, and consistently buy. I only know 3 of those offhand, 2 like dubs better, one likes subs better. The sample is too small and too biased to project any statistics from though... so I would say the discussion is moot.
What makes a person a serious anime buyer?
Anyway there is no way to classify who is serious and not. There is no way to quantify who watches subs and dubs, that why I listed numbers from the vhs days. Using online forums is not a true representative of the community at large since they are the vocal minority who have strong enough opinions to post.
Maybe true but we'll never know unless there's a market survey done on this. I believe that DVD releases won't survive without dubs but I also believe it differs from series to series. I think it will be an interesting marketing research to do should anyone has any interest in the anime community.
Also, keep in mind that we are not discussing about subs and dubs today. That's a never-ending debate that I don't want to touch upon. It's funny that the dicussion went that way and not on other arguments I pointed out. Ok, so dub happy people is the majority alright, then the DVD sales shouldn't be affected by the fansubs big enough for the anime companies to bother pursuing, even for per-licensed series since the sub happy people who download fansubs are so small a community. See, the same argument can be used both ways.
I don't know why I'm wasting time here arguing this rather than reading some more marimite novels. I guess I just felt I should put my 2 cents to credit the fansub community for giving me a chance to watch the wonderful creation from Japan. I'm also grateful that more and more anime are being brought to US in higher quality DVD format but killing off fansubs is just too much.
I don't why you are posting here either. I guess its like a drug.
An interesting read from ohaycon.
http://www.fansview.com/2004/ohayocon/012404a.htm
SirCanealot
2004-02-01, 16:23
I don't why you are posting here either. I guess its like a drug.
An interesting read from ohaycon.
http://www.fansview.com/2004/ohayocon/012404a.htm
Heh, there's a logical view finally against fansubs, backed by some vague stats.
This is an essay I was working on a while ago (stoped bothering now, too lazy, too complicated an issue). Maybe some of you will find it of intrest...
http://sircanealotshome.homestead.com/files/AnimeFansubMorals_draft0_.doc
Sorry about the lack of editing, but I can't be bothered to work on it anymore, unless someone pisses me off about the issue again heh.
Isn't vague stats all that we have, since the companies don't release sales figures for each dvd that I know of. Your essay was pretty spot on
I don't why you are posting here either. I guess its like a drug.
An interesting read from ohaycon.
http://www.fansview.com/2004/ohayocon/012404a.htm
I guess it's really like a drug . ;) But I'm pretty bored waiting for marimite ep.4 to be released, so....
Quoted from the Ohaycon report:
Greenfield flatly said "There's really no purpose for fansubbing anymore - if it's being made in Japan, it's going to come over here."
Now that's a laughable statement. I dare ADV to bring Kokoro Library to US if they are so confident. It won't cost very much but I doubt it will sell much in US too. If they are talking about new anime, bring Maria-sama ga miteru or Kimi ga Nozomu Eien then. And it's funny they mention about HK bootlegs. Chinese fansubs come out much faster than the english subs. The english translations in HK bootlegs are much worse than the fansubs' and apparently are translated from chinese so their statement about digisub facilitates bootleg activities in asia is just BS.
anyone interested in a fansub comparison thread for this, can go here (http://www.anime-planet.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9367) . masakari just posted a detailed side by side comparison of episode 1 for all three groups, and there are a few other comments. expect many more to be posted in the future in the thread..
microlith
2004-02-02, 10:57
Oh the cluelessness of it all...
Case in point, the people in naruto are considering brining the games to the U.S. now because of the huge interest by american anime fans.
Sure they're considering it. But it'll never happen until Naruto is licensed and on TV. They know there's an audience here. They're probably shopping for a licensor OR are making plans to move on it soon (IE they have one already.) once that happens you'll see the games. But not until then. Because then they'll have it showing on CN in English, and will have English voices to pair up with the characters in the game.
Majority of the anime buyers? Are you talking about Pokemon, Yugioh or are you talking about Ai yori aoshi, Tinay snow fairy sugar or Mao-chan? My feeling is that the dub happy people are mostly the ones that get their anime from TV channels and are light anime buyers. Indeed, TV exposure increases the sales of the DVDs and most of the increased sales are from dub viewers.
Dub fans have always made the sales. If they didn't, they wouldn't do dubs. If you look back to the days of VHS when the releases had to be seperate, sub VHS were almost always more expensive because of the lower sales they generated (this is also why DVD was such a boon to anime, since it was cheaper to produce and created ONE line.) Hell if subbed showings mattered more, what's on TV would be subtitled. But hey, it's not!
For some reason people on these boards think that their small view of the world (animesuki, their friends, etc.) represent the whole, but again this is a mistake. Dub fans make up the FAR MAJORITY. Ask at a con. In the past several years I can only name three sub-only releases (Miyuki-chan in Wonderland, the Gundam Movies, and Macross.) Everything else has a dub.
What does fansubs have to do with DVDrips? I think you are stretching a bit. Are you saying that people who downloaded fansubs will most likely NOT buy DVDs and will download DVDrips for dubs?
Yes they will, if they're given the impression this is all to be had for free. They may watch it on TV and go look for it to download, especially if all their friends watch "fansubs" they may go for the downloads too and go "oh, I can get it in english for free too!" The line between digisubs and dvd-rips is becoming too narrow.
I wonder how many people knew Stellvia or Sutepri before they were fansubbed?
Not many, but that doesn't matter. They were licensed before you could blink and will be announced to the unaware public (who still outnumber the amount of people watching the fansubs) in due time, with enough exposure for the average anime fan (IE not animesuki regulars) that they'll likely buy in. What with places like Animeondvd.com and ANN, they can even get early opinions.
Fansubs do promote anime series even for series like Gundam or GITS. Don't assume everyone has equal amount of knowledge of anime as you have and not everyone would buy DVDs just because it's well known. Even Gundam is so popular, it's not my cup of tea. Same goes for many other people. High profile anime does not equal neccessary purchase for me. I do agree that increasing TV exposure is the ultimate way to go. But until we can get the same exposure as in Japan (which I doubt we ever will), fansubs still play a role in promoting anime, high profile or not.
Fansubs offer insignificant promotion for series like Gundam and GitS. In this case it's like preaching to the choir. Doesn't do a damn thing. Sounds good, sure, but gets nothing done. That's Bandai's business getting it on Cartoon Network, which immediately does more than any fansub ever does.
As for Japan-level exposure, we're pretty close. We've got it airing on several channels as part of their programming. We've got hundreds upon hundreds of titles in release on DVD, many coming less than a year after their showing in Japan. Tons of manga titles, several anime mangazines, and more cons than Japan has had for years. What you're not seeing is that we're not getting the SAME STUFF at the SAME TIME. We get it lagged due to licensing issues (after all, it is theirs) but don't believe our exposure is still significantly behind. It's grown so much in the past 3 years that I dare say if it continues we'll outstrip Japan.
Again, fansubs don't reach nearly the audience that satellite/cable networks do, and fansub groups only reach a specialized, overconcerned, (dare I say, elitist at times) audience that thinks they're a step ahead.
I said I felt SERIOUS anime buyers are mostly sub viewers. I'd really like to know how many casual viewers like to watch shows like AYA or Mao-chan?
Again, you're stuck in your own little world. I know many serious anime fans who like both sub and dub, and many who are almost strictly dub fans. They'll go for AYA and Mao-chan when they're available in english. Don't think that just cause someone listens to stuff dubbed means they're a casual fan.
Before you put up the numbers of dubs and subs, please break down to shows that appeared on TV and the shows that only got DVD releases. I felt you can see a difference between the two sets.
Nope. They're just series they thought would do better on TV. It has no correlation between the sub and dub. Not a damn thing.
My point is, dub viewers are mostly casual and light buyers and their source of anime is TV.
Then explain a few years ago when dub buyers basically made the day with dub/sub VHS releases when almost NOTHING was on tv?
Also, keep in mind that we are not discussing about subs and dubs today. That's a never-ending debate that I don't want to touch upon.
It's a dead debate with the arrival of DVD since you get both. And it's a dead debate because no matter which YOU may like, the DUB does the deal. Consider it like I do: I may never listen to the dub, but it subsidizes my japanese audio and subtitles, and I like it that way. Fin.
Now that's a laughable statement. I dare ADV to bring Kokoro Library to US if they are so confident.
They will (someone will) in time, bring everything over. It's just a matter of time when things will be ready for something as totally bereft of action as Kokoro Toshokan can survive. Kokosho is probably one of those few that deserves a fansub, but those are getting harder to find, and most groups today are not doing them.
ChunKyXL
2004-02-02, 16:08
Nice thread going on here about dubs and subs....but i still want GitS 2nd gig fansubbed....
I've got Saint Seiya and Hajime Ippo official DVD boxes and what are they awfully subbed!!! Someone here just said that the bootleg versions in HK were translated from japanese to good chinese and then from good chinese to veeerry bad english....i can tell u that it states for the official releases too.
I mean come on...a jab is a jab and not a straight!!
Nice thread going on here about dubs and subs....but i still want GitS 2nd gig fansubbed....
I've got Saint Seiya and Hajime Ippo official DVD boxes and what are they awfully subbed!!! Someone here just said that the bootleg versions in HK were translated from japanese to good chinese and then from good chinese to veeerry bad english....i can tell u that it states for the official releases too.
I mean come on...a jab is a jab and not a straight!!
Wait a minute Saint Seiya doesn't have a boxset out. Only 4 dvds have been released.
There isn't even a dvd out for Hajime no Ippo. You have bootlegs.
SirCanealot
2004-02-02, 17:08
Yup. Bootlegs :P
Ippo will be comming out sometime this year, thanks to Pioneer/Geneon.
Mephisto03
2004-02-02, 19:14
Nice thread going on here about dubs and subs....but i still want GitS 2nd gig fansubbed....
I've got Saint Seiya and Hajime Ippo official DVD boxes and what are they awfully subbed!!! Someone here just said that the bootleg versions in HK were translated from japanese to good chinese and then from good chinese to veeerry bad english....i can tell u that it states for the official releases too.
I mean come on...a jab is a jab and not a straight!!
Edit - Delete
Since we are talking about if fansubs will hurt DVD sales or will promote certain anime, I think our previous discussions are based on the wrong population (I just realized that). I may be clueless about the "general" audience, but if we are only talking about the fansub community, really, how much percentage is the dub fans?
Someone who has no knowledge of fansubs or do not download and watch fansubs is outside of the discussion here. These people will not not buy DVD because a fansub is available and at the same time, will not buy DVD because they watched the fansub before. Fansubs play no role in the decision of purchasing DVDs of this population. And I believe this is the MAJORITY of anime fans you were referring to.
So, I think my arguments are valid within the fansub community. Fansubs do promote anime for me and many people I know. We are not rich enough to throw money around buying anything that looks good. We like to know we do like it before we make the purchase. As someone said in this thread, bad anime DVD sales will be hurt because I know I won't be buying it and good, quality anime DVD sales will benefit because I like the show and want to have it in higher quality. We might be a small population but we exist nonetheless. You might argue that we are such a small population the anime companies don't give a shit about us. Well, you might just be right, and that's why 4kids can do what they are doing today.
In the end, since fansub community is so small fraction of all anime fans, why do the anime companies so concern about fansubs when most of their customers don't even know what fansubs is?
In the end, since fansub community is so small fraction of all anime fans, why do the anime companies so concern about fansubs when most of their customers don't even know what fansubs is?
When growing a tree, it's required that you trim it every once in a while, otherwise it grows out of control.
complich8
2004-02-03, 02:59
In the end, since fansub community is so small fraction of all anime fans, why do the anime companies so concern about fansubs when most of their customers don't even know what fansubs is?
I guess I'll chime in an answer to this one too.
Somewhere up higher in this or some other thread was a link to some dvd companies reps (adv reps, etc) giving a panel about miscellaneous stuff. The thing that those companies seemed to be pushing was that it increases real piracy in r2 areas. They didn't say whether it hurts their r1 sales or not, there's no figures to show for that and it's really hard to say anything about it. What they DID say is that the original animators were hurt by fansubbing because they can't sell as many r2 dvds, since good quality multilanguage stuff becomes available within a matter of weeks.
I am not sure if I can swallow that argument for several reasons I don't feel like enumerating here, but there it is.
AgenTBaKA
2004-02-14, 21:54
does any one know when the 3rd or 4th episode of gits sac 2nd gig will be out and translated? im new to the board hello to all.
does any one know when the 3rd or 4th episode of gits sac 2nd gig will be out and translated? im new to the board hello to all.
It's licensed, so no one is allowed to tell you.
Wait for the DVDs (the region 1/2 ones please)
AgenTBaKA
2004-02-15, 18:33
ok thanks for the info darn i wish i could know when episode 3 will be out !?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?!?! o well ill find out thanks
Holy shit....I finally read all the replies. Lots of heated tension there between subs/dubs. I started off as a dub but converted. Dubs are easier on the US population. You can have your back turned to the tv and still know what's going on. It's convenient!
Any hoo. I agree with alot of things discussed in this thread. Companies won't mass produce what won't sell. If it's marketable, it will be out there. Those will be the shows you see on tv. When a company considers for tv (in my opinion) they are looking for something that will not only sell the show itself but also the toys, clothes, and whatever else that may come with it.
The thing that gets me about DVDs are the lack of episodes. A DVD can hold over a gig of info. Putting roughly 5 eps/disc wouldn't be a bad idea considering that they're selling for $25-$30. If they can keep it true to the original series when they dub/sub it, it would be awesome. Individual people who buy the anime themselves are looking at about $125-$150 right there. It's easy for kids to go and ask their parents for money to purchase, but when you're not quite in the working world, getting anime can mean the difference between entertainment or lunch for a couple of days. I'm sure that when I get out there and hopefully start making some money, I can start going back to the series I love on fansub and start replacing them (Last Exile, Haibane Renmei, Witch Hunter Robin, Lain, and Angelic Layer).
About the need for fansubs. I'm new to the whole BT thing, but I think that it's great. You can preview something to see how you actually like it. Also, your local anime clubs are a good source for previewing anime that you haven't seen. I've never would've been exposed to so much anime if it wasn't for Anime UC. For written, you only get the highlights or the action shots or the cute girl/boy from most review magazines. With fansubs I know how much I want it when I start shaking due to withdraw from lack of the series. Of course you have the issue of piracy. Unlike music where you have to buy a whole CD for 1 or 2 songs that you yourself deem worthy, you're making a worthwhile investment in anime. Sure you may only watch it once right now, but you may meet a newbie who wants to get started. You can be the person who changes that persons take on anime, dub/sub, doesn't matter because you opened up a new world to someone. Then you might get the urge to re-watch it and re-live the reason why you/someone else made that purchase. And that's why WE meaning everyone from fansub groupies to just buy the licensed material should try to at least make a purchase here and there. Even if you may not buy a whole series but just a couple, that person you enlightened may go out and buy the whole thing and then some.
Finally, life is about give and take. Companies give us anime and fansubbers take. Fansubbers give to the general who don't speak Japanese and the rest take. However we should try to give to the company that gave us such a wonderful product by supporting the industry with letters/emails/fan support and financial compensation. From a somewhat new yet humble anime fan, I thank everyone who has made/distribute legal/illegal a product that I'm glad to support and make others aware of.
The thing that gets me about DVDs are the lack of episodes. A DVD can hold over a gig of info. Putting roughly 5 eps/disc wouldn't be a bad idea considering that they're selling for $25-$30. If they can keep it true to the original series when they dub/sub it, it would be awesome. Individual people who buy the anime themselves are looking at about $125-$150 right there. It's easy for kids to go and ask their parents for money to purchase, but when you're not quite in the working world, getting anime can mean the difference between entertainment or lunch for a couple of days. I'm sure that when I get out there and hopefully start making some money, I can start going back to the series I love on fansub and start replacing them (Last Exile, Haibane Renmei, Witch Hunter Robin, Lain, and Angelic Layer).
Depends on what type of discs they use. If they're using single layered discs, the most you can comfortably put on it without too much artifacts is around 3 episodes. 4 episodes pushes it, but is usually okay for the normal viewer (think Sugar vol 1.) With dual layered discs you can get around twice that. Remember that MPEG2 doesn't work as well as MPEG4 at low bitrates.
Depends on what type of discs they use. If they're using single layered discs, the most you can comfortably put on it without too much artifacts is around 3 episodes. 4 episodes pushes it, but is usually okay for the normal viewer (think Sugar vol 1.) With dual layered discs you can get around twice that. Remember that MPEG2 doesn't work as well as MPEG4 at low bitrates.
*sigh* still...I'm allowed wishful thinking considering the costs of obtaining a whole 24-26 ep series :)
vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.