Forums and Other Discussion Mediums. [Archive]

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felix

2007-01-16, 06:17

Jinto

2007-01-16, 10:36

edit: cleared my rant. 1) I think it was too harsh. 2) Sorry Cats, but that wasn't my day...

@topic,

I've been around in a forum with tree structure. If people do not abuse it (in terms of sub-rooting each and every post, so that the depth of the trees grows horrible), it is a good method to structure things in sub-categories. My impression however is, that monster threads do not really work with tree structures (too much chaos).
Once you use a tree-structure. you have to adapt to the system, that means answering to posts of several sub-nodes on different branches with a mere single post is kinda impossible. That results in a post per category, which maybe cause spam-like answering behaviour (kinda).

felix

2007-01-16, 10:49

Nope I just based it on opinions expressed here and on other forums, about animesuki. They're perfectly accurate. Nobody ever said I like the people here before or maybe I didn't hear it, so I didn't include it.

But anyway that isn't the topic. You didn't read the first post. :p

--------------------------------
Anyway concerning your point.
If you were thinking of Animesuki, then you are wrong, filtering the useless content would imply that it's located somewhere on the forum where people that don't like to see it won't see it. Here it's complete ban. (but Animesuki isn't the topic at hand)
---------------------------------

Isn't it intresting how if there's a poll in a thread everybody seems to flock to it and completly ignore the topic. :heh: The reason why I wrote the options like that is because the poll is only for curiousity and fun... this isn't a topic about Animesuki.
Maybe it would be better to ban such things as polls. :heh:

Vexx

2007-01-16, 11:45

monir

2007-01-16, 12:14

Since this is an interesting topic, my suggestion to Cats to rethink a better poll along with good wording and choices. When you are ready, post them here or PM me and I'll make the changes. Until then, this poll is closed.

P.S. You have changed your nick! I like it. ;)

Syaoran

2007-01-16, 12:50

This forum is perfect for me. I like to stay here because of the people. Also, we can have nice discussions here without where people respect other's point of view and when they disagree, do good work to prove why theirs' is better :)

Hmm ... would it be possible to add a litte bank-like mod where you can earn 'points' and use them to buy things, like owning a character or whatever other extra thingies their might be ^^' Character piccies on request to be bought in a shop held by a skilled photoshoppers on this board? Mockup:

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7530/untitledco5.jpg

Yeah well ... I'm crazy. I know.

felix

2007-01-16, 16:31

Seems to lack neutrality since the only "positive" choice in the poll is ambiguous.
"this isn't a topic about Animesuki." ... then why did you title it "Describe Animesuki Forum"? People aren't ignoring the topic... your poll and your opening post just don't synch up. Jinto responded to your poll.
Heh. Can't argue with that. I admit defeat.
Sorry I'll try to think things better next time :D

monir can you just delete it, based on what happened here and in older threads I'm thinking that a poll should only be used in a thread when it itself is the actual topic. Which considering Animesuki rules and regulations would mean, NEVER. :heh: Sorry for all the trouble. :)

Anyway.. to answer the questions in the OP (and ignoring the poll):

1. Most forums have several problems: the mods fail to follow or enforce the forum rules consistently; thread creation isn't moderated sufficiently; the other problems have to do with poster etiquette.
True.

2. What makes a forum great? The civil and orderly discussion, debate, and exchange of ideas. Sharing information that helps everyone find the stuff they like.
That's true too.

3. I look for clear rules that are enforced. I check the ratio of thoughtful posts to jaded, negative, immature, or poorly executed posts.

Good choice.

Now consider this, you have very strict forum. At first sight by all respects this sounds like a good forum, stricter more organized things have been proven time and time again to be better.

However, while stricter things have proven to be always better they are almost always a harder act to follow. In the case of our strict example forum that would mean that new members will either find it very hard to integrate or impossible. (by new members I'm referring to total n00bs of course)

Basically this is where somewhat less strict forums have an advantage, new comers to are very unlikely to have the confidence to post in serious topic, or the experience to write their thoughts in a ordered structured manner for that matter.

While some of the less serious topics are big generators of posts and very unlikely to go anywhere they are easier to swallow, and small conversations usually form from page to page, thus building up confidence.

In a forum like that, generally only members who are extremely witty or have been tamed by other forums will participate in the serious discussion. And this usually doesn't produce the most creative posts, I personally prefer to read the more honest innocent post, but in a forum like that guts rules masked with the veil of 'serious discussion'. Well there probably will be some serious opinion, most likely from people that have either been on that forum from the begging (when it was 'probably' looser) or have been there for a long long time.

That being said I find that just because a forum is strict doesn't mean the discussion is actually serious, generally just means there are lots of 'black sheep in white clotting', mostly discussions where someone throws a pebble of a topic in and a 1001 wisemen members try to lift it. As in: a discussion that starts from something simple (usually just a statement) and just goes on and on, as people under the pretext of seriousness, try to counter each other and prove somehow the stupidity of the topic.

4. This is a repeat of 3... but as far as functions - this versionof vBulletin comes pretty close. I'm mixed on whether posts should be deletable by the poster....
Well I could think of few dozen ways it could be better.
For example instead of this linear directory structure, I would love a tree structure where comments to another’s post are linked to each other. Let's say the replies are structured in paragraphs (forcefully structured into paragraphs ;) ) with each paragraphs representing an idea.

So when you reply to someone you wouldn't be replying to his post but instead to his idea, and creating a link between his idea and the idea you expressed when replying to it. Basically your post could be link to multiple ideas, not necessarily to the same poster. ;) Hence a tree system.

Ok, now here's where this system beats the vb system:
Let's say you see a thread and you wish to join the discussion, but wow the thread is a whooping 200 pages long. Well in tree system that wouldn't be a problem. You just query the server to display only the branches that are linked to the most recent ideas.

So basically you would see all the ideas that made had comments, ending with the current ones. (note: ideas not necessarily the users entire post)
Now, from a 200 page thread you have a 4 page thread. You could have more but considering discussion patterns on forums you'll most likely have less. :)

Let’s look at it from an administration POV

Let's say you are checking on a thread and encounter a spammer (or just an inappropriate post). In Vb you delete it. But that sometimes still leaves the thread scatted with the replies to it. (generally this means a post deletion frenzy)

In a tree system it's simpler, mod deletes trouble-making-post, this ricochets to all other ideas in the thread that were linked either directly or indirectly to the ideas in that post, and thus 1 delete and thread is cleaned. This could be even simpler process, if for say there is only one trouble making idea in a post, a mod could delete only that branch.

How much time would that save, basically you wouldn't have to read pointless replies to spam.

Here's another use, Off-topicness, we all know what happens with it. (nothing or the entire post get's deleted and others as well) And when off-topicness starts being productive or constructive it is called 'derailing/hijacking a thread' :D

In a forum with a tree structure, a mod can just pick the initial idea and move it to it's own thread in the appropriate section, and with it all the replies. Because ideas in posts are linked and not the posts, this would mean that you can tear hole posts to pieces. ;)

You have this big forum and you need to organize it, lets say that you've round it up to 5 layouts for the forum, but whichever you choose there will always be people who will be left out, so what do you do, well the answer in vb is you roll the dice. (or just pick the one that would be good for you as an admin/mod)

But in a tree system that wouldn't be a problem. Since everything is linked, you can merge and unmerge thread with no problem at all. A way to this efficiently is to have forums organized as root folders, basically when you start a thread you have to link it to the appropriate root. Let's take an example, let say you have a Fan Creation forum in your forum. It contains these roots: showcase, workshop, tutorials - graphics, tutorials - drawing.

Now you can create a layout where that only has graphics and drawing tutorials as threads and things like showcase and workshop threads merged into one. And then you could have another that's the opposite. You can even make one that instead of displaying certain threads as merged could hide them altogether. Besides as a user type specific layout you could design them as filters for fast browsing and searching. ;)

I don't think I have to continue, and this is just one of the simple possibilities (for example you could do it as a 'object oriented forum' instead to get other advantages)
The Vb systems only advantage IMO is that it's easy to make. (as in create the software)

@ Syaoran

:Heh:.. I don't think that would get thru. People that do the making are usually the over-serious type ;)

But anyway, what I would like is that signatures appear on the left side (as in the space beneath your avatar) and only there and only when you make a long enough post for that to happen. Or that your avatar would disappear for the really short posts.

Why?! So there wouldn't a space between posts, of course I can disable sigs and avatars, but I still wanna see them. :)

Of course this would probably never happen, it's not that hard but it's somewhat of a hassle.

OutPhase

2007-01-16, 17:08

1. Back then I used to be an extreme active poster (well, move active than most people), but later on it got less fun, there was nothing that caught my interests, and some of my favorite members left (_Sin_, Roots, Lex, etc.). Right now, I'm trying to become more active again.

2. I cannot list any truely great qualities since I have been absent from here for long time.

3. Topics, community, and active posting. I guess that was what caused me to leave since I regularly visit three other forums each day.

4. A little less strictness so we won't get in as much trouble or have posts deleted for going off-topic.

5. I mainly post on forums and sometimes use IRC. I hate Instant Messaging.

Vexx

2007-01-16, 17:12

ah... yeah I concur the "tree structure" is much nicer as long as people don't munge topics because it does tend to let you follow conversations more easily. I'm always having to go and re-edit so that its clearer whom I am answering. It can still get broken by idjits that choose poorly in their subject titles but it has its advantages.

And yes, .sigs get way out of hand but there is a button to turn them off in options if you're in a hurry or saving bandwidth.

Deathkillz

2007-01-16, 17:33

Do you use them. :heh:

:) Ok what do you think is wrong with most forums... ;) How about the opposite, what do you think is the fabric that makes some forums great.
:cool: When you see a forum, what do you look for in it.
:D Anything you would want in a forum? (feature or policy)
:p Besides forums (and things like emails messengers) do you use anything else?
hmm lets see ~

1) well i guess some forums fail to keep order and control or rather the guys in charge are just too lazy to do anything leading to self destruction and a pile of smoking crap ~ end line is that any self respecting human would leave those types of forums ~

2) great part? well it just has to be the people you meet with similar (or contridicting) opinions...the stuff that comes with going forums can sometimes also be useful ~ ive learnt many (useful) things in the past just be reading the experiences of other people and understanding so maybe i might avoid some of life's pot hole :heh:
debates are always fun but even when some debates get really fired up and heated at the end its all a kiss and a hug (well mostly ~ some just duno when to quit and get their asses banned)

3) well the first thing i look for when going to new forums is the amount of members they have ~ okey it may sound a bit mean but the number of members is an indication to whether the forum is failing or not ~ next comes to how people write their posts...im fine with some junk posts (too much seriousness is harmful) but too much crap then its sayonara :heh:

4) nope actually im quite happy with how AS is ran...and so cant think of any crits ~ but the best rule would be "to keep jerks from soiling the holy grounds" :heh:

5) besides forums i use msn and IRC quite a bit ~ and when playing online games i use ventrilo (and other times when we just want to chat)

edit:
It's frikin' n00b forum I tell you xD
lol...and i would have voted for that as well :3

dkellis

2007-01-16, 18:53

Well I could think of few dozen ways it could be better.
For example instead of this linear directory structure, I would love a tree structure where comments to another’s post are linked to each other. Let's say the replies are structured in paragraphs (forcefully structured into paragraphs ;) ) with each paragraphs representing an idea.

So when you reply to someone you wouldn't be replying to his post but instead to his idea, and creating a link between his idea and the idea you expressed when replying to it. Basically your post could be link to multiple ideas, not necessarily to the same poster. ;) Hence a tree system.

The rest cut for space.

I'm on another forum with a tree structure (City of Heroes official forums), and many people there are clamouring for a linear structure. Of course, this may be because of the limitations of that particular implementation of a tree structure.

The primary problem occurs because the thread structure is tree, but the thread is (by default, easily changeable) viewed flat. There is no general "reply to this thread" button, so people usually just hit "Reply" on the last post, regardless of what topic it is currently about. There is a Quick Reply feature which also appends the reply to the last post in the thread.

Sometimes, too, posters go "that is rather off-topic, but to bring it back on-topic, it relates to such-and-such".

So. The forum is large and active. Someone replies to an off-topic post with an on-topic post, and the discussion continues on-topic from there.

The off-topic post gets deleted. Every single reply since then to the on-topic post gets nuked as well. This has caused no end of problems for the mods in answering "why did my post get deleted? It was following the rules!"

Also, if one wants to bring together various ideas from many posts into one post, it's not easy to do in a tree structure. Which post should be replied to? All of them (multiposting)?

There is also the problem of viewing very long threads in tree structure. The thread gets pushed all the way to the right.

Again, though, these are problems with the specific implementation of the idea. If a different implementation solves those problems (and doesn't introduce new ones), then all the better.

felix

2007-01-16, 19:02

I was talking about how they should be implemented not how they are implemented. :) Vb for example is initially set to follow the tree structure. (there are also options at the top of each thread for displaying in such a way)

But anyway what I was talking about is totaly off of what you were thinking.
The way the system is partially implemented is just for looks, something like: "Look at me I'm a tree." Read what I wrote, I'm not talking about things like those you find on DevianArt etcetera, it's a lil' diffrent concept. :D

Vexx

2007-01-16, 19:16

I also find it interesting that deleting a post in that system completely breaks the chain rather than just reconnecting the previous and next pointers.
... but so it goes. That just really exposes why someone should really study and choose carefully when selecting a package to use for forums (or any other application). Search for those "features" before committing :)

Ending

2007-01-17, 15:18

1-2. I have found oversized signatures, immature members, and poor quality of arguments the biggest faults of most boards. Since I'm still here, you can deduce that most AS members are better than that, which makes good boards.

Several boards also have troublesome mods and/or admin. Some are overzealous (e.g: insta-bans, unnecessary warnings, hindering discussion with rules/censorship) and others like to play king (def. "king": the one who lays down the rules, but is above them himself). Some are just born and bred arses.

3. I look for people who know what "discussion" means in "discussion forum." I.e: your opinion is not necessarily the right one, but can still defend it and deal with critisism. Many people fail in this, going to their hind-legs like a angry bear when poked by an opposite opinion which does not even touch them personally (stays on topic, not on person).

4. I would like to see more new topics. Sadly, topic-creators aren't appreciated very much, since creating a topic basically means risking breaking the rules and the following, annoying visit from the mods. Like taxmen they are: oh-so-necessary, but still oh-so-repelling. Automated moderation would be so much better, if it just were possible...

OutPhase

2007-01-17, 16:15

Several boards also have troublesome mods and/or admin. Some are overzealous (e.g: insta-bans)

A la, Something Awful Forums?

kyoji-kun

2007-01-18, 04:35

umm...lets see...

1. maybe there are few problems about the rules but the real problem starts when members doesn't obey rules!

2. interesting topics and the participation of the members makes some forums popular.

3. useful information and fun stuffs (especially anime).

4. free cakes for everyone! (just kidding!) I'll just let the mods decide on this! XD

5. I only use YM and other forum sites...