Bootleg/subbed animes [Archive]

Megane

2004-01-06, 10:01

I has come to my attention that this subject of bootleg and subbing animes can not be dropped! First of all I do not encourage everyone to buy illegal copies of animes.
I was in several situation were a anime was licensed and I couldn't dl/ed it? Whether I was right or wrong (in this case wrong!) I bought the unlicensed versions! I wanted to finish watching the series. * please note AnimeSuki does not support any illegal/unlicensed anime! NOR....do I care what people do with there money is thier own business? I kinda slipped when I mentioned I bought a series that wasn't licensed! oops!

I do love my anime, and I hate not knowing what happened? Telling me or reading it is not the same as seeing it. I know lots of you will have something to say about this and this thread might closed or get deleted. Its ok to voice your opinon but keep it civil please.

Sorry Cammie, I'm not sure I fully understand which side you are coming from here. You say "First of all I do not encourage everyone to buy illegal copies of animes," yet you mention that you "bought the unlicensed versions". I take it that you have bought bootleg anime before, but are you trying to defend it?

Are you talking about situations where a series is licensed half way through, at which point it is dropped by the ethical subbers, and therefore harder to find? If this is the case, and you "hate not knowing what happened", then why not wait for the DVD releases?

Cammie

2004-01-06, 10:16

All I'm trying to say is that I was wrong to purchase illegal anime dvds. "BUT" I'm not ashamed to admit that I do buy them for my personal viewing. Ok! if thats the only bad thing I do then...... whatever? Nor do I support any one particular company? I just want to see my anime!

Shii

2004-01-06, 10:55

I did buy Hong Kong DVDs at one point, being under the false impression that they were licensed for sale in Hong Kong and Malaysia (people who sell them on eBay often trick you into believing this). I like the good quality on the ones I have, but I would never buy them again now that I know what they are.

By buying them, even for your personal viewing, you are hurting everyone who worked on the anime and supporting real bootlegging piracy, much worse than supposed Internet "piracy".

Wait for the DVDs, or if you're all that impatient, download the fansubs or HK DVD rips (from Direct Connect). Although downloading licensed anime is immoral, it is far higher on the Scale of Ethics than buying anime from simple thieves.

anime_layer

2004-01-06, 11:44

Ok! if thats the only bad thing I do then...... whatever? Nor do I support any one particular company? I just want to see my anime!

Consider once again what you wrote. It's the same kind of wrong thinking like 'I don't go voting since my vote counts so littel anyway'.
You have to go voting if you want something to change because every vote is important. Just like you have to buy licensed releases in order to keep the anime industry alive.

Cammie

2004-01-06, 12:01

Consider once again what you wrote. It's the same kind of wrong thinking like 'I don't go voting since my vote counts so littel anyway'.
You have to go voting if you want something to change because every vote is important. Just like you have to buy licensed releases in order to keep the anime industry alive.

You know your right! but the anime business has been going strong for decades now! once again I'm not saying its OK! This topic can expand into many things involving copying anime to a disc to subbing anime? So, whos right or wrong in this?

If I dl a anime I usually delete it and move on to the next episode isn't that what you are suppose to do?

Dark_Voodoo

2004-01-06, 12:10

OK, so the thing here that you baught a anime bootleg and you admit that it was wrong, but you then justify your actions by claming that you "just want to watch your anime" and that your one purchase dosent matter. Im I getting this right?

Well, your right your one purchase dosent matter, It would hardly be noticed on a large scale. But what does count is that this kind of thinking is addictive, you can use it as an exuse over and over agian. And the danger is that if more people start to think like this soon it will be noticed and bad things will start to happen.

And as for "just want to watch my anime", well Id love to watch me 1 million dollars but I dont go in to a bank and steal em do I :eyebrow:

Now I can understand your desire to watch anime, I live in a country where buying bootlegs is probably the only way to get animes (not enteirly true, Sweden is getting better on the anime front :D), but please do anything you can (I do mean anything) to refrain from buying those bootlegs :)

Cammie

2004-01-06, 12:16

Dark_Voodoo

2004-01-06, 12:23

Once again think about it.........? all of us are guilty one way or another dl/ing subbed anime which is unlicensed.
:)

Yes we are all breaking the law for dl fansubbs, but the big diffrence here is that the fansubbers dont make money from it, it actually cost them money if anything to make these subbs, Bootlegers steal your money for somthing that is not an official version. Money wich should have gone to the makers of the anime when they decided to release a DVD (or whatever) with that anime.
Now I know that not evryone buys a anime they'v dl when it comes out (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!) and I confess not even I have baught some of the animes I'v dl (they suck mucho bado). But atleast some people do and the makers of the anime get a few bucks (evryone is happy :) )

So the real thing with bootlegs is where the money goes. If the bootlegers where to put the money they make and send it all to the makers of the anime its ok ^_^; (Like that would EVER happen)

Cammie

2004-01-06, 12:37

Yes we are all breaking the law for dl fansubbs, but the big diffrence here is that the fansubbers dont make money from it, it actually cost them money if anything to make these subbs, Bootlegers steal your money for somthing that is not an official version. Money wich should have gone to the makers of the anime when they decided to release a DVD (or whatever) with that anime.
Now I know that not evryone buys a anime they'v dl when it comes out (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!) and I confess not even I have baught some of the animes I'v dl (they suck mucho bado). But atleast some people do and the makers of the anime get a few bucks (evryone is happy :) )

So the real thing with bootlegs is where the money goes. If the bootlegers where to put the money they make and send it all to the makers of the anime its ok ^_^; (Like that would EVER happen)

You said it yourself doll... (Yes we are all breaking the law for dl fansubbs) theres really no excuse?

Dark_Voodoo

2004-01-06, 12:42

You said it yourself doll... (Yes we are all breaking the law for dl fansubbs) theres really no excuse?

Yep I know it ^_^
The thing is, how do you break it, does anyone make money from it and the most important how much of a hypocrite you can be ^_^

dragonz20

2004-01-06, 12:47

u are suppose to delete it after you're done watching free downloaded anime right? it's the right thing to do.. but let's be honest with each other.. almost everyone in here either keeps their favorite anime(s) on their hardrive or copy it on cdr or dvd-r so they can watch it anytime they want. i can take it one step further and confidently say that almost everyone will NOT buy the official version of that anime once it has been licensed (unless they love their DVD collection to that extreme)... just doesn't make sense. you already have an excellent translated version of it so why are you going to buy a licensed DVD version that has basically the same thing?... basically, the creators of the anime can almost consider you as a lost customer. the only thing they gain from u is a fan who may recommend the anime to friends... but a bootlegged version will do that as well non?

of course i don't endorse buying bootlegged anime but can you all honestly say that none of you have bought them. am i to believe you (anime fansub freaks) have been watching only licensed anime and not buying anything overseas?... yeah okay... i know exactly how i started out as an anime fan. and it was by word of mouth and by importing cheap bootlegged anime (i was a poor middle school/high school/college student)... just because anime has recently become mainstream and it's "oh no! bootlegged anime is dead wrong!".. well if the anime is not licensed, i don't see anything wrong in importing either the official foreign version or a good fansubbed bootlegged version. in this day and age of napster/kazaa, i'd think EVERYONE in here has committed some type of crime involving illegal copies. but that's just my opinion and no one else's...

anyway, i always buy the official licensed version unless:
(1) it's not available (not licensed yet or will never be licensed)
(2) i know the licensed version is crappy (Ruronin Kenshin is a great example).

You said it yourself doll... (Yes we are all breaking the law for dl fansubbs) theres really no excuse?

Cammie

2004-01-06, 12:49

Yep I know it ^_^
The thing is, how do you break it, does anyone make money from it and the most important how much of a hypocrite you can be ^_^

Ok! please refrain from name calling because that leads to flamming ok!

Thanks
Cammie

dragonz20

2004-01-06, 12:58

Cammie,

I don't think Dark Voodoo was calling you a hypocrite. he was generalizing I think... maybe.. probably...

Ok! please refrain from name calling because that leads to flamming ok!

Thanks
Cammie

Shii

2004-01-06, 13:06

Ok! please refrain from name calling because that leads to flamming ok!
Well, is it OK to say that people who are buying stolen anime, even though they know it's stolen, are pretty stupid?

Here, let me illustrate this for you:

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/060104-woo.png

Cammie

2004-01-06, 13:17

Well, is it OK to say that people who are buying stolen anime, even though they know it's stolen, are pretty stupid?

ashibaka,

Anyway you look at it or say we are all wrong? I least I admit that I'm wrong for buying illegal dvds. :) I do dl/ed my favorite ones which are still considered unlicensed? but think about it they might be doing the same thing with our shows overseas, I'm not saying its ok? :thinker:

dragonz20

2004-01-06, 13:19

so let me change it up a bit then... so is it okay for me to download fansub from here and then convert them to DVD for my own private use? I know some people have been doing it here because i've seen some questions about how to convert divx files to DVD-burnable format... how is that so much different from buying an illegal copy of an anime? i am just paying for the service of someone converting it for me now in theory..

Well, is it OK to say that people who are buying stolen anime, even though they know it's stolen, are pretty stupid?

Here, let me illustrate this for you:

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/060104-woo.png

Cammie

2004-01-06, 13:21

Well, is it OK to say that people who are buying stolen anime, even though they know it's stolen, are pretty stupid?

Here, let me illustrate this for you:

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/060104-woo.png

Thanks for the illustration! LOL... but aren't we watching stolen anime subbs? Hey, but I like the way you think.....

Dark_Voodoo

2004-01-06, 13:29

Ok! please refrain from name calling because that leads to flamming ok!

Thanks
Cammie

Sorry I wasent flamming you. I'm as much a hypocrite as you are for dl fansubbs, my point is that to some extent we all are a little bit hipocritical when it comes to anime. And that dosent have to be a bad thing you know :)

Esperchld

2004-01-06, 13:33

ok, we have estabilished that we are all watching stolen copies. Next is to establish which is worse, fencing of free giving.

Cammie

2004-01-06, 13:36

Sorry I wasent flamming you. I'm as much a hypocrite as you are for dl fansubbs, my point is that to some extent we all are a little bit hipocritical when it comes to anime. And that dosent have to be a bad thing you know :)

Hey, its all good!

anime_layer

2004-01-06, 14:19

Yes, I download fansubs.
Yes, I store them on CDs.
No, I hardly ever watch fansubs twice.
Yes, I buy most series I watch completely as fansubs on DVD.

You know your right!

I have my opinion but I listen to what other people say.

but the anime business has been going strong for decades now!

The earth exists since ages. So lets continue polluting it?
That shop is going well for a few years now. So stealing from it is ok?
Humanity is growing and growing. Killing is ok then?
Your are out for yout own benefit and only for it. You try to justify it, ok, but then don't use such threadbare and lame excuses.

Besides, the anime industry is _not_ doing very well. In the past few years it's gotten harder and harder to raise funds and many small studios had to shut down...

all of us are guilty one way or another dl/ing subbed anime which is unlicensed.

No, I don't feel guilty myself. I appreciate the effort of all people who work hard for creating good animes and thus I show it by buying DVDs, Mangas and Merchandise.
I use fansubs to select which series to buy and for those animes, that won't get released anytime soon. I also want to be as close at the scene as possible and fansubs are the best place for this.

Cammie

2004-01-06, 14:53

Yes, I download fansubs.
Yes, I store them on CDs.
No, I hardly ever watch fansubs twice.
Yes, I buy most series I watch completely as fansubs on DVD.

I have my opinion but I listen to what other people say.

The earth exists since ages. So lets continue polluting it?
That shop is going well for a few years now. So stealing from it is ok?
Humanity is growing and growing. Killing is ok then?
Your are out for yout own benefit and only for it. You try to justify it, ok, but then don't use such threadbare and lame excuses.

Besides, the anime industry is _not_ doing very well. In the past few years it's gotten harder and harder to raise funds and many small studios had to shut down...

No, I don't feel guilty myself. I appreciate the effort of all people who work hard for creating good animes and thus I show it by buying DVDs, Mangas and Merchandise.
I use fansubs to select which series to buy and for those animes, that won't get released anytime soon. I also want to be as close at the scene as possible and fansubs are the best place for this.

Hey! thats me... LOL!
:hmm: OK! now settle down its ok! Of course you don't feel gulity why should you? you drive a car don't you? You pollute the air as well with your exhaust? or any type you use transportation? unless its a bicycle? Do you use electricity? I'm guessing you do? hehe.. you know I could go on and on about the earth. No one here is right you know? You are still dl/ing things that are copies. And I do buy legit/legal animes.

Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but? are the licensed anime bought by US? So, if that is so? are we supporting the US? hmmmm...

:)

EDIT Ahh... you know I just realize you are a student.. OK! I understand now what you are saying!! Nevermind! what I wrote, your absoutely right. ;)

CaliforniaRoll

2004-01-06, 15:22

whats sad are the people who are trying to convince themselves that they are somehow better than the rest because they dont do it for personal gain. Whats illegal is illegal no matter how you look at it. Now you can keep downloading things in a permenant state of denial or you can take your head out of your ass an realize that you arent any better than the bootlegger sitting next to you.

This is what you people sound like:

I polute less because i'm running on regular fuel rather than desiel. So that person running on desiel is obviously morally wrong, but im forgiven because he's obviously a bigger concern to the atmosphere than I am. (even though in the end, we are both poluting) :hmm: Doesnt take a genius to figure out that equation.

Shii

2004-01-06, 15:27

whats sad are the people who are trying to convince themselves that they are somehow better than the rest because they dont do it for personal gain. Whats illegal is illegal no matter how you look at it. Now you can keep downloading things in a permenant state of denial or you can take your head out of your ass an realize that you arent any better than the bootlegger sitting next to you.
Nobody is debating the legality, we are debating the morality. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE

And if you think that all immoral things are equally wrong, maybe you should consider the death penalty for eating meat?

anime_layer

2004-01-06, 15:49

Seems like you two got me wrong on those three lines.
I was commenting what Cammie said earlier:
but the anime business has been going strong for decades now!
I think this is a wrong way of reasoning and so I tried to find diffrent situations where this reasoning could be applied and came up with thos three lines:
The earth exists since ages. So lets continue polluting it?
That shop is going well for a few years now. So stealing from it is ok?
Humanity is growing and growing. Killing is ok then?
They might not be perfect and it's not like I'd say them seriously so don't qute me on it.

Cammie

2004-01-06, 16:02

anime_layer , Okie dokie.... I get it. It doesn't really matter how you compare it? whether you buy bootleg, dl it and save it on your PC, and burning on dvd its still not legal. BTW... I wasn't really sure about how the anime business was doing these days so you could be right!

I like you ( your to funny ).

Shii

2004-01-06, 16:10

its still not legal
I think this thread just got took a step back to page 1... *sigh* I don't know why I bother.

CaliforniaRoll

2004-01-06, 16:10

Nobody is debating the legality, we are debating the morality. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE

And if you think that all immoral things are equally wrong, maybe you should consider the death penalty for eating meat?

::edit:: Dont bother making another arguement ashibaka, lets just say you make more sense than i do.

Cammie

2004-01-06, 16:19

I think this thread just got took a step back to page 1... *sigh* I don't know why I bother.

hehe! we can go in circles if you want?

Shii

2004-01-06, 16:20

Well, I see you edited your post so that instead of making an argument, you just gave up... well, OK then. I, however, will leave my response intact because I spent a good 10 minutes looking for that "question-beggin' strips" macro.

legality and morality is the same exact thing. You only know whats right because the laws tell you good from bad. You dont accually think that your born with this knowledge? Morality is based of religion and laws are pretty much based of religion as well.
OK, I will tackle this utter gibberish one step at a time.

legality and morality is the same exact thing.
So in other words, morality varies in areas of the world that happen to correspond to governments. For example, since it is legal to mutilate a girl's genitals in central Africa, that makes it totally moral to do so as well. (Cuckoo, cuckoo...)

You only know whats right because the laws tell you good from bad.
So what you're saying is, if you grew up in an anarchy, and someone stole your store of food, you wouldn't be able to tell whether that was good or bad? How long would you have to think about it before you realised that it was bad to not be able to eat for the next few weeks?
This also brings up the problem-- how do lawmakers know what's good or bad?

You dont accually think that your born with this knowledge?
Talk about begging the question!
http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/question_begging.jpg

Morality is based of religion
If that were the case, we would hate the savage Japanese for being totally immoral. Where do you suppose the morality dictated by religion comes from? If it comes from God, that means at least 60% of the population of the world is totally immoral. You are butchering the meaning of the word "morality".
and laws are pretty much based of religion as well.
If that were the case, adultery would be a death-penalty crime, and we would all refrain from posting to this forum on Sundays. Also, some of the most important laws in our country would be about eating shellfish and boiling lambs in their mother's milk.

Thank you for your post. It was good for a laugh.

dragonz20

2004-01-06, 16:24

lol. you're all entertaining... :)

Well, I see you edited your post so that instead of making an argument, you just sighed at me... I guess that's the easiest thing to do, eh? I, however, will leave my response intact because I spent a good 10 minutes looking for that "question-beggin' strips" macro.

OK, I will tackle this utter gibberish one step at a time.

legality and morality is the same exact thing.
So in other words, morality varies in areas of the world that happen to correspond to governments. For example, since it is legal to mutilate a girl's genitals in central Africa, that makes it totally moral to do so as well. (Cuckoo, cuckoo...)

You only know whats right because the laws tell you good from bad.
So what you're saying is, if you grew up in an anarchy, and someone stole your store of food, you wouldn't be able to tell whether that was good or bad? How long would you have to think about it before you realised that it was bad to not be able to eat for the next few weeks?
This also brings up the problem-- how do lawmakers know what's good or bad?

You dont accually think that your born with this knowledge?
Talk about begging the question!
http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/question_begging.jpg

Morality is based of religion
If that were the case, we would hate the savage Japanese for being totally immoral. Where do you suppose the morality dictated by religion comes from? If it comes from God, that means at least 60% of the population of the world is totally immoral. You are butchering the meaning of the word "morality".
and laws are pretty much based of religion as well.
If that were the case, adultery would be a death-penalty crime, and we would all refrain from posting to this forum on Sundays. Also, some of the most important laws in our country would be about eating shellfish and boiling lambs in their mother's milk.

Thank you for your post. It was good for a laugh.

anime_layer

2004-01-06, 16:28

whether you buy bootleg, dl it and save it on your PC, and burning on dvd its still not legal.

- If you buy bootlegs you support people who do not have any feelings or respect of Animes and are only looking for their profit. Fansubbers are at least (as the name implies) fans.
- That's why you should buy legit DVDs! ^_^

I like you ( your to funny ).

Now how should I understand this? ^__^
I take it as a compliment so: Tanks! :p

@CaliforniaRoll

What about cloning and stem cell research?
You've got it the wrong way round. Morals are the base from which the laws are made. Whereas laws are always (or at least mostly) very clear, morals are gradual. The hard part of making laws is to find a fix place between clearly right and clearly wrong.

Cammie

2004-01-06, 16:35

- If you buy bootlegs you support people who do not have any feelings or respect of Animes and are only looking for their profit. Fansubbers are at least (as the name implies) fans.
- That's why you should buy legit DVDs! ^_^

Now how should I understand this? ^__^
I take it as a compliment so: Tanks! :p

NOW take a DEEP Breath!
Have you been reading all the posts here? So, its ok? what your doing dl/ing from good fansubbers? is that what you are implying?

dragonz20

2004-01-06, 16:35

- If you buy bootlegs you support people who do not have any feelings or respect of Animes and are only looking for their profit. Fansubbers are at least (as the name implies) fans.
- That's why you should buy legit DVDs! ^_^ .

Sorry but I don't buy that... And you are downloading free fansub anime off the web for others I am assuming (non-profiting reasons)? It's okay for you to not support bootleggers but it would be in theory, okay for you to download an anime and do whatever u want (watch it multiple times, leave it on your harddrive, copy it on a cdr, convert it to a dvd)... The only way you can claim that you are a true fan is if you bought EVERY anime (non-bootlegged version) you've ever downloaded and I am willing to bet that almost EVERYONE hasn't done that. Just because you're a little thief doesn't make you any less of a thief... Like I said earlier, most of us in here will never buy the licensed version when we already have it for free as a fansub unless we REALLY love it. plain and simple... so you profiting from others just as much as the bootleggers...

Cammie

2004-01-06, 16:45

Sorry but I don't buy that... And you are downloading free fansub anime off the web for others I am assuming (non-profiting reasons)? It's okay for you to not support bootleggers but it would be in theory, okay for you to download an anime and do whatever u want (watch it multiple times, leave it on your harddrive, copy it on a cdr, convert it to a dvd)... The only way you can claim that you are a true fan is if you bought EVERY anime (non-bootlegged version) you've ever downloaded and I am willing to bet that almost EVERYONE hasn't done that. Just because you're a little thief doesn't make you any less of a thief... Like I said earlier, most of us in here will never buy the licensed version when we already have it for free as a fansub unless we REALLY love it. plain and simple... so you profiting from others just as much as the bootleggers...

anime_layer

Read this very carefully! and comprehend. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but read this more than twice.

anime_layer

2004-01-06, 16:56

@Cammie
No. This is only the main diffrence between fansubbers and bootleggers.

(@dragonz20)
The important factor is in my opinion if you hurt the industry in the end (for I want to appreciate their work and keep them going).
I you'd buy bootlegs and the legit dvds afterwards it would be diffrent but since you already have dvds, the chance you do is really low.
It's diffrent with fansubs. Quality and user-friendliness is lower than those of dvds so it's more likely to buy legit dvds after you've watched fansubs (I buy DVDs of all series I didn't drop before the end because I didn't like them).

Cammie

2004-01-06, 17:22

ARGH....... did you read it correctly? I guess its your opinion?

I'm hungry? dragonz20 are you?
http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/kao/otn/pnoodles.gif

Shii

2004-01-06, 17:40

I move to stop calling the downloading of copyrighted content "stealing", on the grounds that no exchange of money is involved.

Anyone wish to second the motion?

LynnieS

2004-01-06, 18:48

I move to stop calling the downloading of copyrighted content "stealing", on the grounds that no exchange of money is involved.

Anyone wish to second the motion?Not if I'm reading this article (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01848.htm#1848)'s contents correctly, no. And regardless of it, I wouldn't second the motion either.

Although, apparently, the statute of limitations is but 3 years for a civil copyright violation and 5 years for a criminal one currently.

Edit - Besides, hasn't this topic been thrashed out in one form or another? I know that I'm guilty of theft, and am not proud of it. I do, however, buy the anime titles that I enjoy.

Qualifier - Not buying very many discs now, though, since I should be moving next month. Don't need the extra shipping costs, thanks. :p

Edit - More stuff (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html) on this topic. Actual damage in this hypothetical example should be near 0 - since the infringer has not gotten any money from his act, and it'll be difficult, IMHO, for the holder to calculate a satisfactory number for the courts of the loss suffered - but the section on statutory damages looks interesting, though.

The section on criminal violation is also painful. There look to be two situations where you'll be subject to criminal prosecution (to quote):

1. for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain, or

2. by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000, ...

The first shouldn't apply to us, but the second... Umm... :heh:

anime_layer

2004-01-06, 18:51

ARGH....... did you read it correctly? I guess its your opinion?

Hmm...

It's okay for you to not support bootleggers but it would be in theory, okay for you to download an anime and do whatever u want (watch it multiple times, leave it on your harddrive, copy it on a cdr, convert it to a dvd)...

No. I'm thinking of the following process:
1. Somone's leeching fansubs / buying bootlegs and watches them multiple times.
2. Then she/he goes out and buys the legit DVDs.
If that person does step 2, the whole thing becomes ok in my eyes. If that person only does step 1, it's not.
Now we got two ways in step one: Either to download the fansub or to buy the bootlegs.
Since fansubs are easy to get, fan-made and non-profit I'd always prefer them. Bootleggers don't love anime and already having a dvd makes it more unlikely you get to step 2.

This process and the question which way to choose in step 1 are two diffrent things. Don't confuse them.

The only way you can claim that you are a true fan is if you bought EVERY anime (non-bootlegged version) you've ever downloaded and I am willing to bet that almost EVERYONE hasn't done that.

That's the maxim. But I use fansubs to choose what to buy. I could read reviews and sometimes buy series I don't really like and they would land on the bottom of my closet. I can also get a glimps of some series using fansubs and thus know what I buy. I believe this gets me to buy more, not less, dvds.

Just because you're a little thief doesn't make you any less of a thief...

No. You can't throw everyone in the same pot. There is a diffrence between robbing a bank and downloading some fansubs you later buy on dvd.

Like I said earlier, most of us in here will never buy the licensed version when we already have it for free as a fansub unless we REALLY love it. plain and simple...

I only have few dvds of series which I didn't watched as fansub before. As I stated above, I buy the dvds for every series I completely watched as fansubs.

so you profiting from others just as much as the bootleggers...

In the two years I'm watching anime, I've bought 85 dvds. I bought few at the beginning but I'm buying more and more.
In the three years I'm reading mangas, I've bought almost 500 mangas and they get grow in number even faster.
I don't think I'm only profiting...

Shii

2004-01-06, 18:57

Not if I'm reading this article (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01848.htm#1848)'s contents correctly, no.
Ah, what? You cited the criminal code for copyright violations...

Oh... "intellectual property"... bonklers. That would teach me to stop hypothesizing about an ideal world where things make sense.

LynnieS

2004-01-06, 19:08

Ah, what? You cited the criminal code for copyright violations...

Oh... "intellectual property"... bonklers. That would teach me to stop hypothesizing about an ideal world where things make sense.:) Well, this subject, every time someone raises it up from the grave, seems to divide people into three (at least!) camps. To generalize, you have those who think taking digisubs/fansubs is harmless, those who think it isn't (but still do it - and many salve over their consciences by buying), and those who want everyone to just shut up and let the &#!@ subject die already. :D

In an ideal world, I think that it's fair that every time someone accesses someone else's work, the author is paid. I'd like to get the opportunity to try out the work first, but that may not be possible. In an ideal world, everyone is an honest and upstanding citizen, though.

If you believe that, I've some wetlands in Florida I'd like to sell to you. ;)

Shii

2004-01-06, 19:23

Dark Zero

2004-01-06, 19:23

Shouldn't we get pissed at the 'bootleggers' rather then the people who buy bootlegs, foolishly, unknowing they're bootlegs?

All this about 'wasting' money buying bootlegs as it doesn't go to the creators. How about d/ling the anime and NO MONEY whatsoever goes to the creators aswell? Same thing IMO. And don't claim you'll buy the anime once its licenesed anyway, we know most don't. Why 'waste' money on something you already have/seen/ are bored of/can care less about after the fact?

I'm done with such a divided topic....

Shii

2004-01-06, 19:33

Shouldn't we get pissed at the 'bootleggers' rather then the people who buy bootlegs, foolishly, unknowing they're bootlegs?
Yes, the bootleggers are scammers, and they do have victims, but there are also people on our end buying bootlegs even though they know their money is going to underground pirates. We should try to solve the problem on our end; it's not like we can call up the Chinese government and ask them to crack down on anime bootlegging.

Dark Zero

2004-01-06, 19:35

Yes, the bootleggers are scammers, and they do have victims, but there are also people on our end buying bootlegs even though they know their money is going to underground pirates. We should try to solve the problem on our end; it's not like we can call up the Chinese government and ask them to crack down on anime bootlegging.

Just defending Cammie :p
As it seemed most got on her case when she didn't even know the bootlegs.

LynnieS

2004-01-06, 19:37

What I meant is that the phrase "intellectual property" recasts online copyright infringement, where nothing is taken and nothing is sold, as stealing. And as for "what is stolen?", well, it's the hazy conception of the work that the author created. And creating derivative works is "stealing" as well, what a way to inspire creativity...

I suppose that "intellectual property" must be a phrase invented by lawyers.
LOL! I personally feel that the term "intellectual property" is rather redundant since I consider a piece of work in art, music, or etc. as both an idea and the application of said idea in the real world, and "property" alone is sufficient. I'd like to have one simple time period (and a strict definition of "derivative" please!) in which the author's rights to his work are protected, and once that's done, it's done.

Given that I'm not a lawyer, though...

Megane

2004-01-06, 19:37

Wow, you sure can trust an ethics/morality thread to spiral out of control on an anime forum!

Now call me naive, but couldn't Cammie's discussion have been brought to a conclusion two pages ago? What would it have taken to say "Bootlegs Suck"? I thought it was incredibly obvious that buying bootlegs was much more "wrong" on probably all the scales you can measure "wrongness" on, than downloading unlicensed anime and watching it, regardless of what you did with it afterwards (unless it's make bootlegs).

Has anyone who has ever bought a bootleg ever given a thought to where their hard-earned cash was going? I'm not sure how much of the media I should be believing here, but I've seen reports. Many pirate activities (which would include the sale of bootleg anime) serve to fund much nastier things, like the production of drugs, or the support of organised crime. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that if you buy bootlegs, you are instantly enroled to some Asian Mafia, but if you're going to spend money on anime; would you rather have it end up (not all of it, I know) in the hands of the anime producers, or would you rather be helping out the Bad Guys?

In short, Bootlegs Suck.

Cammie

2004-01-06, 19:58

Shii

2004-01-06, 20:07

I think the argument is whether bootlegging is worse than fansubbing. dragonz20 and CaliforniaRoll (before he gave up) argued that fansubbing is just as bad as bootlegging.

But I guess arguing with that is like arguing with Creationism, eh? You can already tell that they are irrational and that you aren't going to get anywhere.

Cammie

2004-01-06, 20:16

Esperchld

2004-01-06, 22:37

Discussing is a nice word for arguing.

fansubbing and bootlegging are the same thing. Neither is legal, and both are intelectual property theft (which is a someone stupid term in the first place, but oh well).

Also morality of the individual has nothing to do with the laws of a populous. Morals are shaped by the beilfs of an individual, laws are made to keep the peace between these individuals who have differing morals.

FinFangFoom

2004-01-06, 23:30

Also morality of the individual has nothing to do with the laws of a populous. Morals are shaped by the beilfs of an individual, laws are made to keep the peace between these individuals who have differing morals.
Not nessecarily true. To pharaprase what I learned in my business law class, law will generally represent the common morality of the humans that it governes. The reason is that the government will want to ally itself with what most citizens, or the more powerful or vocal minorities believe to be right. It makes it a lot easier to control and enforce laws when it goes with what the citizens believe to be moraly right anyways. Sometimes if the law goes against common morality, governments will often look the other way. Ashibaka brought up a perfect illustration of this in the genital mutilation of young girls in Africa. The practice has been outlawed for some time because of pressure from other countries and the U.N as being inhuman, but many times it is not enforced because of pressure from the many tribes that very strongly believe in the practice. Also it could be illustrated by the recent supreme court ruling on the anti-sodomy laws. Even though over 60% of Americans are against homosexuality, the gay & lesbian rights groups are vocal enough and influencial enough that they were able to get the supreme court to overturn the law.

I think this is the biggest reason that the RIAA is having such a hard time. Even though they are absolutly in the legal right to go after people pirating music, by doing so you imediatly make criminals out of millions of Americans including young children that are otherwise in very good standing with the government. That makes it harder for the government to help enforce and go after the common music pirate, because so many are moraly opposed to it.

AG3

2004-01-07, 01:56

My personal opinion is that buying a bootleg is worse than downloading something, from a moral point of view. When you give people money, you are encouraging them to do it on an even larger scale, which only increases the problem for the original copyright holder. Of course people who give it away for free are encouraged if they see that a lot of people take interest in what they offer, but it's somehow different. I can't really think of how to put it onto words.

Buying bootlegs supports organised crime, which is most likely not limited to only pirating software/media on a commercial scale. This could be everything from drug dealing, theft (the more "physical" kind), even murder. But downloading it is different. If I have the choice between downloading an anime or borrowing the DVD from my friend, what's the difference? Someone has already paid for it, but I haven't, so it's not like the original creator gets any money either way. Borrowing DVDs (or videos in general) from friends has always been considered ok, how is downloading any different? After watching the anime/video, you won't somehow lose all memory of it by returning it to your friend.

If I like something a lot, I usually end up buying it. But I'd rather pirate it myself instead of paying others to steal it for me (bootlegs), thereby encouraging them to fuel organized crime. I'll never buy a bootleg willingly, I'd sooner abstain fully from what I'm after. Like a lot of other sides of human nature, it IS a kind of hypocrisy. I can't deny that. Stealing is stealing.

My own morality dictates what lengths I will go to in order to aquire what I want, and I know that not everyone agrees with me. That's ok. As long as you can live with the consequences of your actions. And I believe that the consequences of buying a bootleg can be far worse than by simply downloading it, to the point of it being impossible for me to accept buying bootlegs for any reason.

Like I said, it's a hypocrisy, but it's my opinion, and I will stand by it.

dragonz20

2004-01-07, 09:04

I don't see it that way so let me counter your claims:

Since fansubs are easy to get, fan-made and non-profit I'd always prefer them. Bootleggers don't love anime and already having a dvd makes it more unlikely you get to step 2.

This process and the question which way to choose in step 1 are two diffrent things. Don't confuse them.

That's the maxim. But I use fansubs to choose what to buy. I could read reviews and sometimes buy series I don't really like and they would land on the bottom of my closet. I can also get a glimps of some series using fansubs and thus know what I buy. I believe this gets me to buy more, not less, dvds.

Yes, free fansub anime is non-profit for the ones that make them. The same can't be said about those that download them though (you and I). And not all bootleggers are doing it just for the business. Some are huge anime fans who have compiled an incredible collection of anime and thought they got make a few bucks by copying them (I knew of someone who did it as she went through college). Is it right for them to do it..? no... but don't make a claim for all bootleggers to be non-anime fan. You have to be a fan in some way. And it doesn't matter what you prefer. You are still stealing free anime. As long as there is ONE anime you have watched for free by downloading it and have not bought an official copy of it, you have stolen from that specific company. In the end, you have profited from some anime company... It may get you to buy more anime but you are still stealing.

No. You can't throw everyone in the same pot. There is a diffrence between robbing a bank and downloading some fansubs you later buy on dvd.

I only have few dvds of series which I didn't watched as fansub before. As I stated above, I buy the dvds for every series I completely watched as fansubs.

That's a huge difference you're making there. Robbing a bank is different from downloading fansub anime.. and if you read my statements, you would have realized that I said unless you buy the official DVD, you are stealing... What I did clump together are people who have downloaded at least one fansub without buying the official DVD (practically everyone in here... ) and the bootleggers. They're both profiting from the anime industry...
And just because you didn't watch the entire series doesn't make it okay for you to not buy the DVD. You didn't rent it from your local video store (they paid to get their copy) and you didn't buy it. So you still stole from that company even if you didn't finish watching the series.

In the two years I'm watching anime, I've bought 85 dvds. I bought few at the beginning but I'm buying more and more.
In the three years I'm reading mangas, I've bought almost 500 mangas and they get grow in number even faster.
I don't think I'm only profiting...

And there you have it. You are not only profiting but you ARE profiting from this regardless of how many anime and mangas you have bought.

u&t

2004-01-07, 10:07

unless you buy the official DVD, you are stealing

When are you ppl going to learn. Copyright infringement is not not theft. The word "stealing" is incorrect in every sense of the word. The whole infringement=stealing thing is just RIAA propaganda.

Steal is a strong word (hell, there is even a commandment for it) and you should not use it for something as minor as violating copyright.

Megane

2004-01-07, 11:10

...
Some are huge anime fans who have compiled an incredible collection of anime and thought they got make a few bucks by copying them (I knew of someone who did it as she went through college). Is it right for them to do it..? no... but don't make a claim for all bootleggers to be non-anime fan. You have to be a fan in some way.
...

A fan would never make profits illegally by exploiting (bootlegging) something they loved. I feel this goes against everything "fan" means, and it saddens me to think that a bootlegger thinks they like the product they are selling. It makes me think that they have never truely understood what it means to enjoy something.

Dark_Voodoo

2004-01-07, 11:17

When are you ppl going to learn. Copyright infringement is not not theft. The word "stealing" is incorrect in every sense of the word. The whole infringement=stealing thing is just RIAA propaganda.

Steal is a strong word (hell, there is even a commandment for it) and you should not use it for something as minor as violating copyright.

But what is it then do you mean? Copywrite used to mark a item as owned by a individual or group. And when you break the copywrite you use this item in a way not intended by the makers which boils down to theft. When you dl a anime that is copywritet you steal the money that you should have used to pay for that anime. This also applyes to bootleggers, the steal the profit from the companys that should have gotten the money for that anime. Copywrite infrigment = Theft. But if you deem it as serius as actually stealing a item from someone that is a diffrent story.

Cammie

2004-01-07, 11:24

Reading all the comments made on this thread and ChibiDusk's thread ( A question I might get flamed for..but I just have to ask.) Both topics are leading towards the same direction.

No matter how we define it we are all guilty of piracy/stealing or a nice way of saying it "borrowing ". I know I have bought excellent bootleg dvds and at the time I really didn't know much about bootlegging? LOL... like i mention before I just wanted to finish watching my anime.

Now, my question is why are we complaining so much we can now buy dvd burners or have access to one and make copies on just about anything? I just spoke to a colleague of mine and he said that most stores now sell bootleg copies of animes, movies ect... The copies are so good that you wouldn't even know the difference. I know its ashame but its true. If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty of things what do you think TIVO is? isn't that some type of recorder? and is that legal to record anime off certain channels even though its license? hmmmm...
Shoot... I bought my graduation video tape which has a copyright and burn it into dvd and made copies of it.

Shii

2004-01-07, 13:16

And when you break the copywrite you use this item in a way not intended by the makers which boils down to theft. ... Copywrite infrigment = Theft.
You made this claim twice, but didn't back it up... what makes "intellectual property" property, rather than just a conception? Can you invest in intellectual property futures? Can you eat an intellectual property?

dragonz20

2004-01-07, 13:41

Theft of intellectual property is the main reason why companies are so reluctant in investing their resources into R&D (Research and Development). Why do all the heavy lifting when you can wait till a competitor does something new, steal it and then reverse engineer it to the point where it will bypass the patent rights?... Therefore, it's usually one or two companies creating new things and the rest spend little in their R&D to play catchup...

You made this claim twice, but didn't back it up... what makes "intellectual property" property, rather than just a conception? Can you invest in intellectual property futures? Can you eat an intellectual property?

dragonz20

2004-01-07, 13:52

A fan would never make profits illegally by exploiting (bootlegging) something they loved. I feel this goes against everything "fan" means, and it saddens me to think that a bootlegger thinks they like the product they are selling. It makes me think that they have never truely understood what it means to enjoy something.

I beg to differ. A fan is a fan no matter how bad of a fan you are. If they watch anime on a regular basis then they are an anime fan, regardless of whether they exploit their love for money or not. They're not respected but not all fans deserve respect. Are English hooligans any less soccer (football to Europeans) fans than the others just because they enjoy getting drunk and pick fights with everyone? Should they be given the same respect as the "normal" fans? How about the so-called fans that leave the game early because they want to avoid traffic even though the game is not over (I hate those people btw)? What about the bandwagoners in sports? Somehow, their teams are always winning the NBA championships, the World Series, the SuperBowl, or the Stanley Cup even though it's different teams that win each year. What if I install a modchip on my PS2,Xbox, and gamecube and start buying copied games for a real cheap price? Does that make me any less of a gamer? What if I import a game from Japan even though they will eventually release an American version here... Am I not a fan of games anymore?...

Like I said, a fan is a fan no matter how bad of a fan they are...

*sorry for the double post*

Megane

2004-01-07, 14:41

...
Now, my question is why are we complaining so much we can now buy dvd burners or have access to one and make copies on just about anything? I just spoke to a colleague of mine and he said that most stores now sell bootleg copies of animes, movies ect... The copies are so good that you wouldn't even know the difference. I know its ashame but its true.

Most stores sell bootlegs?! In which area of the world is this? Also, I'm surprised we haven't heard from any A/V freaks defending the superiority of real DVDs over bootlegs.

If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty of things what do you think TIVO is? isn't that some type of recorder? and is that legal to record anime off certain channels even though its license? hmmmm...

TIVO as a concept is little different from a VHS recorder. They said VHS recorders would kill the broadcast industry decades ago, yet we have more channels than ever. Neither devices are seen just as a tool for piracy or any other illegal operation.

I beg to differ. A fan is a fan no matter how bad of a fan you are. If they watch anime on a regular basis then they are an anime fan, regardless of whether they exploit their love for money or not. They're not respected but not all fans deserve respect.

Perhaps. But then again I may be working with my own definition of fan. Perhaps I should be working with a different term here. It's just I'd rather put myself as far away from bootleggers as possible, and if we can use the term fan to describe some bootleggers, then I'm not a fan, I'm something better. Yes, I download anime, which is illegal, but I would have hoped that everyone has realised the two are quiet different. I am not a fan, I am devoted. I may not buy all the anime I've ever watched on fansub, but I make what contribution I can to the industry.

Oh, and you can pull the reins of my moral high horse out from my cold, dead hands.

Cammie

2004-01-07, 15:58

Most stores sell bootlegs?! In which area of the world is this? Also, I'm surprised we haven't heard from any A/V freaks defending the superiority of real DVDs over bootlegs..

Oh no, sorry I should have EXPLAIN myself clearly! I was teaching and typing while I was writing this. There several comic book shops and video shops that do sell bootleg copies here in Florida. ( United States ) I can name quite a few of them, one is located in a Mall. Just about any video store (privately own) can order whatever you want.

Cammie

2004-01-07, 16:27

Perhaps. But then again I may be working with my own definition of fan. Perhaps I should be working with a different term here. It's just I'd rather put myself as far away from bootleggers as possible, and if we can use the term fan to describe some bootleggers, then I'm not a fan, I'm something better. Yes, I download anime, which is illegal, but I would have hoped that everyone has realised the two are quiet different. I am not a fan, I am devoted. I may not buy all the anime I've ever watched on fansub, but I make what contribution I can to the industry.

Oh, and you can pull the reins of my moral high horse out from my cold, dead hands.

How can you say that "your something better?" How is it that you are better? because you don't buy bootleg copies? whatever..... illegal is illegal and thats that!
Yes, dl/ing is mild compared to buying copies, but you are trying to make yourself feel better by saying (atleast I don't buy illegal copies). Once you dl don't you share your copy with others? Isn't that distributing illegal copies for free? Yes, you are devoted to dl/ing your favorite anime .. shoot you don't have to pay to watch most or all your anime. If you can get it or see it for free why buy?

Oh, yeah I see the difference!

dragonz20

2004-01-07, 16:53

That's what I am saying. You can't say bootleggers are evil and that you are better just because you freeload but don't sell it. You're still ripping off the companies who make these animes. unless you have bought or rented a "real" copy of the anime you've downloaded, you have contributed little to the creators. you can sing all the praises you want about the anime but in the end you've cheated them almost just as much as the bootleggers. so unless you've bought ALL the anime you've watched for free by downloading off the web, you're no better than a bootlegger. you just don't have the time,resource, or desire to convert it and sell it off to others for money.

in this sense, there is NO difference between you downloading free anime and then doing whatever u want (save it on cdr, converting to a dvd) or paying a bootlegger to package it up into a DVD with a nice label and a box. You're just paying for the service because you don't have the knowledge, or you don't have the software and equipment, or you're just plain lazy...

still, if I had a choice between a bootlegged version and a real version and the translation of the real version isn't horrible, then i'd take the real version. but it's not evil to buy a bootlegged version either...

How can you say that "your something better?" How is it that you are better? because you don't buy bootleg copies? whatever..... illegal is illegal and thats that!
Yes, dl/ing is mild compared to buying copies, but you are trying to make yourself feel better by saying (atleast I don't buy illegal copies). Once you dl don't you share your copy with others? It isn't that distributing illegal copies for free? Yes, you are devoted to dl/ing your favorite anime .. shoot you don't have to pay to watch most or all your anime. If you can get it or see it for free why buy?

Oh, yeah I see the difference!

Megane

2004-01-07, 17:30

That's what I am saying. You can't say bootleggers are evil and that you are better just because you freeload but don't sell it. You're still ripping off the companies who make these animes.

I never said I didn't freeload. I said before I didn't buy every series I watched. Fansubs are the lifeblood of the Western anime industry today. Without them anime would almost be exclusive to Japan, and perhaps late-night culture trip programmes on TV. Fansubbers are important, we need them, and so do ADV, RightStuf, Geneon, and all the rest. But I'm sure you knew that. What makes me different from bootleggers is I don't have the gall to make illegal profits off someone's free time and effort. It's not about "time or resources", it's about respect. Bootleggers obviously have none.

unless you have bought or rented a "real" copy of the anime you've downloaded, you have contributed little to the creators. you can sing all the praises you want about the anime but in the end you've cheated them almost just as much as the bootleggers.

I like that use of the word "almost" there :P

so unless you've bought ALL the anime you've watched for free by downloading off the web, you're no better than a bootlegger. you just don't have the time,resource, or desire to convert it and sell it off to others for money.

You seem to have quiet an urge to group bootleggers in with the rest of us. May I make insinuations as to whether you have been involved in such actions yourself before?

Perhaps there do exist bootleggers who have bought anime from license holders before, maybe some rip from DVDs, I don't know. But I find it hard to believe I have made less or equal a positive contribution to the anime industry than a bootlegger. Perhaps if I had never purchased legitimate anime before, yet continue to watch and enjoy fansubs, then you can come back to me and tell me I'm no better.

in this sense, there is NO difference between you downloading free anime and then doing whatever u want (save it on cdr, converting to a dvd) or paying a bootlegger to package it up into a DVD with a nice label and a box. You're just paying for the service because you don't have the knowledge, or you don't have the software and equipment, or you're just plain lazy...

I'm sorry? In which sense? In the sense that both the bootlegger and I have downloaded fansubs off the net? Well I thought that was a little obvious, but I guess that we are the same in that one sense, like you say.

still, if I had a choice between a bootlegged version and a real version and the translation of the real version isn't horrible, then i'd take the real version. but it's not evil to buy a bootlegged version either...

Now that depends on your definition of evil...

How can you say that "your something better?" How is it that you are better? because you don't buy bootleg copies? whatever..... illegal is illegal and thats that!
Yes, dl/ing is mild compared to buying copies, but you are trying to make yourself feel better by saying (atleast I don't buy illegal copies). Once you dl don't you share your copy with others? Isn't that distributing illegal copies for free? Yes, you are devoted to dl/ing your favorite anime .. shoot you don't have to pay to watch most or all your anime. If you can get it or see it for free why buy?

I'm afraid I can't help but read your post to be more than a little contradicting. You say that "illegal is illegal" yet "dl/ing is mild compared to buying ". I'm sure you are aware that there are different levels of law in the world. For example I'm sure that in most regions the punishment for murder is far heavier than that of illegal parking. But It's not really an issue of the legality of bootlegging and downloading fansubs, it's about why bootleggers are wrong on a different scale. I suggest you familiarise yourself with [b]ashibaka's scale (http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/060104-woo.png).

dragonz20

2004-01-07, 17:42

to answer quickly because i have to go...

Fansubbers are important to the industry but it is a poor excuse for saying "it's okay.. as long as i am not selling my copies.. then i am only helping the anime industry.." lemme see here... how many freeloaders like us are there out here??? several hundreds of thousands maybe.. close to a mil or two??? this is wild guess.. do u think all of them have bought all their anime after watching their free downloads?... now add it all up and tell me how much lost revenue the anime industry has incurred from that?... now how many bootleggers are out there?... several hundreds... maybe several thousands... u see my point?... add up all their sells and compare it to the loss we caused. do u think we as a collective group don't do as much damage as all the bootleggers out there? it adds up.. your one free download is little compared to how many "free" copies one bootlegger sells but we (freeloaders) outnumber them by several hundred/thousand folds...

and I have never personally made or sold a bootlegged anime DVD (or movie or whatever). I have bought a few of them though... I haven't even tried to make a DVD (or even burn a data DVD for that matter) even though I've owned a DVD burner for the past year or so... Iam one of the lazy people... but if I did burn anime DVD, it'd be just for me.. or maybe for a friend or two...

edit1: and i never said bootleggers deserve our respect.. i am just saying they ARE a cheap and alternative source for anime DVD... but if they don't deserve respect then we (freeloaders) don't deserve much more as anime fans...

I never said I didn't freeload. I said before I didn't buy every series I watched. Fansubs are the lifeblood of the Western anime industry today. Without them anime would almost be exclusive to Japan, and perhaps late-night culture trip programmes on TV. Fansubbers are important, we need them, and so do ADV, RightStuf, Geneon, and all the rest. But I'm sure you knew that. What makes me different from bootleggers is I don't have the gall to make illegal profits off someone's free time and effort. It's not about "time or resources", it's about respect. Bootleggers obviously have none.

I like that use of the word "almost" there :P

You seem to have quiet an urge to group bootleggers in with the rest of us. May I make insinuations as to whether you have been involved in such actions yourself before?

Perhaps there do exist bootleggers who have bought anime from license holders before, maybe some rip from DVDs, I don't know. But I find it hard to believe I have made less or equal a positive contribution to the anime industry than a bootlegger. Perhaps if I had never purchased legitimate anime before, yet continue to watch and enjoy fansubs, then you can come back to me and tell me I'm no better.

I'm sorry? In which sense? In the sense that both the bootlegger and I have downloaded fansubs off the net? Well I thought that was a little obvious, but I guess that we are the same in that one sense, like you say.

Now that depends on your definition of evil...

ElvenPath

2004-01-07, 17:48

I may not buy all the anime I've ever watched on fansub, but I make what contribution I can to the industry.

Ths should be the attitude to follow for everyone who claims himself to be a true anime fan.

dragonz20

2004-01-07, 17:55

Yes well that's all nice and everything but that is soooo vague.
"What contribution I can" That's can be the case for EVERYONE. If I am rich, I would probably buy every anime series I've ever remotely liked because I can make that contribution.. But if I am a poor college student, then I'd contribute little because... well I am poor. LOL... yeah I don't have any problems with this at all...

Ths should be the attitude to follow for everyone who claims himself to be a true anime fan.

u&t

2004-01-07, 18:01

Theft of intellectual property is the main reason why companies are so reluctant in investing their resources into R&D (Research and Development). Why do all the heavy lifting when you can wait till a competitor does something new, steal it and then reverse engineer it to the point where it will bypass the patent rights?... Therefore, it's usually one or two companies creating new things and the rest spend little in their R&D to play catchup...

Do you have anything to back that up? I would argue that current intellectual property rules are holding back research and innovation in a lot of industries, mainly IT and biotech. A google search for "stifling innovation intellectual property" brings up a lot of specifics.

Ideas and inventions that benefits mankind belongs in the public domain. Patents (and other forms of intellectual property rules) are expensive and protect bad buisness models. Just the way I feel...

ElvenPath

2004-01-07, 18:01

Yes well that's all nice and everything but that is soooo vague.
"What contribution I can" That's can be the case for EVERYONE. If I am rich, I would probably buy every anime series I've ever remotely liked because I can make that contribution.. But if I am a poor college student, then I'd contribute little because... well I am poor. LOL... yeah I don't have any problems with this at all...

Let me remind you that anime isn't suppose to be free. There's a price to pay for everything.

Cammie

2004-01-07, 18:03

I never said I didn't freeload. I said before I didn't buy every series I watched. Fansubs are the lifeblood of the Western anime industry today. Without them anime would almost be exclusive to Japan, and perhaps late-night culture trip programmes on TV. Fansubbers are important, we need them, and so do ADV, RightStuf, Geneon, and all the rest. But I'm sure you knew that. What makes me different from bootleggers is I don't have the gall to make illegal profits off someone's free time and effort. It's not about "time or resources", it's about respect. Bootleggers obviously have none.

sure you don't have the gall to make illegal off of someone's free time and effort. So you show your respect to the anime creators by dl/ing free anime subs and distribute/share them other anime fans online? Hey, as I said time and time again I know I'm wrong and I can admit that!

I'm afraid I can't help but read your post to be more than a little contradicting. You say that "illegal is illegal" yet "dl/ing is mild compared to buying [bootlegs]". I'm sure you are aware that there are different levels of law in the world. For example I'm sure that in most regions the punishment for murder is far heavier than that of illegal parking. But It's not really an issue of the legality of bootlegging and downloading fansubs, it's about why bootleggers are wrong on a different scale.

Of course I am aware the are different laws in the world. LOL! You say that "illegal is illegal" yet "dl/ing is mild compared to buying [bootlegs]" how would like me to say it to you? I was trying to say it nicely to you?

LynnieS

2004-01-07, 18:11

How can you say that "your something better?" How is it that you are better? because you don't buy bootleg copies? whatever..... illegal is illegal and thats that!
Yes, dl/ing is mild compared to buying copies, but you are trying to make yourself feel better by saying (atleast I don't buy illegal copies). Once you dl don't you share your copy with others? Isn't that distributing illegal copies for free? Yes, you are devoted to dl/ing your favorite anime .. shoot you don't have to pay to watch most or all your anime. If you can get it or see it for free why buy?

Oh, yeah I see the difference!
Everyone, let's take a breath and calm down before things get really heated, okay? A person may not agree with how the laws interpret property, intellectual or otherwise, but he is welcome to bring suit to have the courts interpret them. He's even welcome to explicitly object to the laws and force the issue; no guarantee, of course, on how the government will treat the person, but that's the risk you run.

From a Fair Use point of view, I don't see anything to stop you from using TiVo to save a program to watch at a later date for your own personal enjoyment. If you're distributing copyright material, though, regardless of any profit involved, that's, from what I can tell from the U.S. government's copyrights laws, illegal, and you can be made liable for statutory damages.

SirCanealot

2004-01-07, 18:11

What the hell are you all talking about here? I can't even read half of you's posts. Learn the hell to write damnit. Time to step my ass up.

Fansubbers are important to the industry but it is a poor excuse for saying "it's okay.. as long as i am not selling my copies.. then i am only helping the anime industry.."

What the hell? Anime woulden't be in its current state now if it wassent for fansubbers. In modern day Terra, fansubbers still play a role in the anime industry. This is a fact. It is not an excuse. Allthough I may not use the word "important", they're still a use to the industry. Would Naruto of Hajime no Ippo have such a huge worldwide following if it wasen't for fansubs? No... but you know when Ippo and Naruto get a R1 release those DVDs will fly off the shelfs like someones just tipping them off them. This is due to... their fansub run!

do u think all of them have bought all their anime after watching their free downloads?...

Do you think half of them would give a fuck about the DVDs whether they'd watched fansubs or not?

now add it all up and tell me how much lost revenue the anime industry has incurred from that?

Refer to my first point. How much revenue has the anime industry GAINED from that?

now how many bootleggers are out there?... several hundreds... maybe several thousands... u see my point?... add up all their sells and compare it to the loss we caused. do u think we as a collective group don't do as much damage as all the bootleggers out there? it adds up.. your one free download is little compared to how many "free" copies one bootlegger sells but we (freeloaders) outnumber them by several hundred/thousand folds...

This issue goes WAAAAY to deep for you. And if I wanted to explain it, I'd have to explain months of random thought on the issue. But suffice to say, do bootleggers buy the anime DVDs? Lets say 1/10 fansub watchers buy their DVDs. The issue of the "random buyers" is MAJOR to this issue imo. The fact that people will randomly buy bootlegs, download fansubs or buy R1 Anime DVDs. If you took away all these people, you'd be left with the few who just download with no intention to ever buy, a core group of fans which spend as much as they can to support the industry in buying shiny new R1 DVDs and those that really just dont give a crap.

edit1: and i never said bootleggers deserve our respect.. i am just saying they ARE a cheap and alternative source for anime DVD... but if they don't deserve respect then we (freeloaders) don't deserve much more as anime fans...

Bootlegs are NOT a cheep alternate. Not if you value quality over everything else. Shoving a 26 episode series onto 3 DVDs and having some idiot translate some subtitles does NOT give you the quality of a series on 5-8 DVDs profesionaly encoded and subtitled.

Also on the morality of downloading to bootleging lets take an example:

Anime Author Mr San is selling his anime product in the streets. There is a long que of people queing to get his anime product. There are many types of people in this crowd, some bad, some not, some good. There are those that take his product from him and pay him $20. There are those that take his product from him for nothing, perhaps giving him $20 later if they like the series and want it in better quality that the "free" version they got from him. And there are those that push him down, take the product and steal $20 from his wallet. Which is the worser type of person? Buying bootlegs is basically taking money out of the pockets of anime studios and giving it to someone else. Download fansubs ends up with little loss, allthough indeed, many of the people who took the "free" product will never give him any money.

Whats worse? Mugging someone in the street and taking their wallet, or mugging someone and stabing them after? Morality isn't as easy as that. I refer to this PNG posted ealier:
http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/060104-woo.png

While I have strong moral belifes (my own they are of corse) on the morality of fansubs and I could probebly write a decently lengthed essay which would bring many points to the table about the issue, bootlegs are WRONG. As I said, its taking money from the authors and giving it to other people. Which is MUCH worse than my example of someone who downloads a fansub.

Megane

2004-01-07, 18:14

to answer quickly because i have to go...

Fansubbers are important to the industry but it is a poor excuse for saying "it's okay.. as long as i am not selling my copies.. then i am only helping the anime industry.." lemme see here... how many freeloaders like us are there out here??? several hundreds of thousands maybe.. close to a mil or two??? this is wild guess.. do u think all of them have bought all their anime after watching their free downloads?... now add it all up and tell me how much lost revenue the anime industry has incurred from that?... now how many bootleggers are out there?... several hundreds... maybe several thousands... u see my point?... add up all their sells and compare it to the loss we caused. do u think we as a collective group don't do as much damage as all the bootleggers out there? it adds up.. your one free download is little compared to how many "free" copies one bootlegger sells but we (freeloaders) outnumber them by several hundred/thousand folds...

Can you not understand how wrong you are? Did I not make it clear that without fansubbers, there would be NO anime industry here? Without fansubs we wouldn't be buying anime anyway! But we do have fansubs, and thus we are aware of anime's existance. There even happen to be some of us who enjoy what they see, maybe are even touched by it. Some of us who think that either we would enjoy seeing that series again, to own it in a high-quality format, or that perhaps we might even like to give our thanks to the people who created that series and have our money end up in their hands.

Whatever the reason, there exist some who wish to buy their anime legally. So to make it easier, companies went about translating, subbing and dubbing these series and made them available to us, The West. Fansubbing continues to this day, because if it were to suddenly go away, I am almost certain that Western license holders would find their businesses collapsing overnight. I had hoped you wouldn't need this little history lesson.

The fact that there are perhaps millions of fansub viewers is fantastic! It means that the anime industry here stands a chance of growing, and of becoming a truely successful thing. It almost doesn't matter how many of them have or have not bought anime before. However doomed the human race may be, I believe that among any slection of people, a fair number of these will be able to understand and give respect for something. In this case, more fansub viewers means more of a target market for licensers, and better business.

What your bootleggers are doing is poisoning the industry. Nothing more to it than that. Regardless of whether you know it or not, when you buy a bootleg you help bootleggers to continue to exist. You'll need to understand commodities other than money to understand why fansubbing (at least, unlicensed fansubbing) doesn't "damage the industry" on anywhere near a scale that bootleggers manage to achieve. You seem to have misunderstood what your numbers mean.

and I have never personally made or sold a bootlegged anime DVD (or movie or whatever). I have bought a few of them though... I haven't even tried to make a DVD (or even burn a data DVD for that matter) even though I've owned a DVD burner for the past year or so... Iam one of the lazy people... but if I did burn anime DVD, it'd be just for me.. or maybe for a friend or two...

I thought as much.

Cammie

2004-01-07, 18:21

SirCanealot please, refrain from swearing here! ok! we are all friends here and have different views.

I'm really not upset with any of you. Lets, just have a nice debate! http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/kao/otn/blobpink1.gif

Shii

2004-01-07, 18:35

Can you not understand how wrong you are? Did I not make it clear that without fansubbers, there would be NO anime industry here? Without fansubs we wouldn't be buying anime anyway! But we do have fansubs, and thus we are aware of anime's existance.
Hmm, maybe we could invent something that would allow people to know of the existence of anime without fansubs. It would be a great boon to the anime industry, don't you think?

Hmmmmm... hmmmmmmm... we could call it "advertising"!

Cammie

2004-01-07, 18:40

Can you not understand how wrong you are? Did I not make it clear that without fansubbers, there would be NO anime industry here? Without fansubs we wouldn't be buying anime anyway! But we do have fansubs, and thus we are aware of anime's existance. There even happen to be some of us who enjoy what they see, maybe are even touched by it. Some of us who think that either we would enjoy seeing that series again, to own it in a high-quality format, or that perhaps we might even like to give our thanks to the people who created that series and have our money end up in their hands.

Whatever the reason, there exist some who wish to buy their anime legally. So to make it easier, companies went about translating, subbing and dubbing these series and made them available to us, The West. Fansubbing continues to this day, because if it were to suddenly go away, I am almost certain that Western license holders would find their businesses collapsing overnight. I had hoped you wouldn't need this little history lesson.

The fact that there are perhaps millions of fansub viewers is fantastic! It means that the anime industry here stands a chance of growing, and of becoming a truely successful thing. It almost doesn't matter how many of them have or have not bought anime before. However doomed the human race may be, I believe that among any slection of people, a fair number of these will be able to understand and give respect for something. In this case, more fansub viewers means more of a target market for licensers, and better business.

What your bootleggers are doing is poisoning the industry. Nothing more to it than that. Regardless of whether you know it or not, when you buy a bootleg you help bootleggers to continue to exist. You'll need to understand commodities other than money to understand why fansubbing (at least, unlicensed fansubbing) doesn't "damage the industry" on anywhere near a scale that bootleggers manage to achieve. You seem to have misunderstood what your numbers mean.

I thought as much.

Oh my goodness Megane? No one said that bootleggers were doing something good! I'm pretty sure dragonz20 is well aware of what you are saying.

SirCanealot

2004-01-07, 18:40

[B]SirCanealot please, refrain from swearing here! ok! we are all friends here and have different views.

I'm really not upset with any of you. Lets, just have a nice debate!

Stop opressing my lanuage then...

Megane

2004-01-07, 18:59

Hmm, maybe we could invent something that would allow people to know of the existence of anime without fansubs. It would be a great boon to the anime industry, don't you think?

Hmmmmm... hmmmmmmm... we could call it "advertising"!

I agree completely ashibaka. I look forward to the day when the Western anime industry can stand on its own two feet, and its popularity has reached the stage where commercial advertising will be all that is required to gather a market. By then we'll have anime on more than a pitiful handful of select TV channels, and they might even air some subtitled! We'll get more than one anime cinema release per year, and I might even be able to buy soundtracks in my local shop! Wow, the future sure does sound cool :D

But we're not there quite yet.

Cammie

2004-01-07, 19:00

Hmm... have you read any of your comment? lots of typos. Oh! I'm dealing with a student here? 18 yrs old with lots of spunk! I like that... trying to be all that! lol... NOT! I'm going to tell you what I usually tell my students that act like they know every thing! If you don't have anything nice (meaning respecting others) to say don't say anything! But, you will come back with something vulgar or mean. I'm sure something disrespectful. You really show your true age.
http://mindscraps.com/s/kao/otn/pblob5.gif

What the hell are you all talking about here? I can't even read half of you's posts. Learn the hell to write damnit. Time to step my ass up.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by dragonz20
Fansubbers are important to the industry but it is a poor excuse for saying "it's okay.. as long as i am not selling my copies.. then i am only helping the anime industry.."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What the hell? Anime woulden't be in its current state now if it wassent for fansubbers. In modern day Terra, fansubbers still play a role in the anime industry. This is a fact. It is not an excuse. Allthough I may not use the word "important", they're still a use to the industry. Would Naruto of Hajime no Ippo have such a huge worldwide following if it wasen't for fansubs? No... but you know when Ippo and Naruto get a R1 release those DVDs will fly off the shelfs like someones just tipping them off them. This is due to... their fansub run!

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
do u think all of them have bought all their anime after watching their free downloads?...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you think half of them would give a fuck about the DVDs whether they'd watched fansubs or not?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
now add it all up and tell me how much lost revenue the anime industry has incurred from that?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Refer to my first point. How much revenue has the anime industry GAINED from that?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
now how many bootleggers are out there?... several hundreds... maybe several thousands... u see my point?... add up all their sells and compare it to the loss we caused. do u think we as a collective group don't do as much damage as all the bootleggers out there? it adds up.. your one free download is little compared to how many "free" copies one bootlegger sells but we (freeloaders) outnumber them by several hundred/thousand folds...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This issue goes WAAAAY to deep for you. And if I wanted to explain it, I'd have to explain months of random thought on the issue. But suffice to say, do bootleggers buy the anime DVDs? Lets say 1/10 fansub watchers buy their DVDs. The issue of the "random buyers" is MAJOR to this issue imo. The fact that people will randomly buy bootlegs, download fansubs or buy R1 Anime DVDs. If you took away all these people, you'd be left with the few who just download with no intention to ever buy, a core group of fans which spend as much as they can to support the industry in buying shiny new R1 DVDs and those that really just dont give a crap.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
edit1: and i never said bootleggers deserve our respect.. i am just saying they ARE a cheap and alternative source for anime DVD... but if they don't deserve respect then we (freeloaders) don't deserve much more as anime fans...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bootlegs are NOT a cheep alternate. Not if you value quality over everything else. Shoving a 26 episode series onto 3 DVDs and having some idiot translate some subtitles does NOT give you the quality of a series on 5-8 DVDs profesionaly encoded and subtitled.

Also on the morality of downloading to bootleging lets take an example:

Anime Author Mr San is selling his anime product in the streets. There is a long que of people queing to get his anime product. There are many types of people in this crowd, some bad, some not, some good. There are those that take his product from him and pay him $20. There are those that take his product from him for nothing, perhaps giving him $20 later if they like the series and want it in better quality that the "free" version they got from him. And there are those that push him down, take the product and steal $20 from his wallet. Which is the worser type of person? Buying bootlegs is basically taking money out of the pockets of anime studios and giving it to someone else. Download fansubs ends up with little loss, allthough indeed, many of the people who took the "free" product will never give him any money.

Whats worse? Mugging someone in the street and taking their wallet, or mugging someone and stabing them after? Morality isn't as easy as that. I refer to this PNG posted ealier:
http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/060104-woo.png

While I have strong moral belifes (my own they are of corse) on the morality of fansubs and I could probebly write a decently lengthed essay which would bring many points to the table about the issue, bootlegs are WRONG. As I said, its taking money from the authors and giving it to other people. Which is MUCH worse than my example of someone who downloads a fansub.