Anime in the 00's: mainstream or just a new way of entertainment

[mr_green32]

Ok, maybe this is just a battle between the hardcore anime otakus and the fresh-off-of-Cartoon-network DBZ/Gundam Wing kids, but what do you think: is anime becoming too mainstream, or is it just another form of entertainment that's having it's time in the light? I remember just yesterday having to locate the nearest AniCon just to buy used VHS anime. Okay, maybe not yesterday...more like 6 years ago when I started. Nowadays, you can buy anime at a gas station (wow, New York has it all!). Much like Final Fantasy VII threw gaiming into the mainstream, I think Dragonball (and fuc---I mean funimation) threw anime into every home in America. That's great, but I feel something's being lost in the transition. Now every 8 yr old thinks he's the #1 freak because he can name all the characters in Cowboy Beebop. Maybe it's just a part of life, how something can boom into the open and do well. But how long will it last? Will the craze die down here in america, leaving the experience back in the underground hands? Or will it be another part of our entertainment pastime forever? Eh, maybe my hatred for English-dialogue anime has gone to my head. Maybe I like the Japanese language too much. And maybe, just maybe, Lina WILL have bigger breasts one day. I like her just the way she is anyhoo...

:topicoff:

[maxthelostboy]

umm its not new here at all! Speed racer! classic in ever way! astroboy came here too! though MOST people do not watch anime because they rather watch real shows (friends, etc.) and anime is not played on prime time on main stations like abc, nbc, fox etc. Cable stations yes. I think what throws most people off from anime is the price, some people rather buy a cheaper dvd thats 2 hours and blah than a anime dvd that has 90 minutes of show for like $30. Yes there r alot of exceptions and yes dvds are cheaper some places. and final fantasy 7 did nothing into blasting video games into the world! Pacman , mario, sonic, all before that! Though a certain show may just be a thing of the time i doubt anime will.

[Thelastguardian]

You know....6 months is not that long :| that mean you started downloading anime at June 2003....DUDE dont act like you have 50 years of experience :D Of course I also dont watch anime for this long, but I think my experience will suffice me saying this: For anime world the last 12 months does not consists of much changes. The only thing that would be major is anime is finally going to mainstream North America's society. But it still has a long way to go.

I hate to say this but anime IS another kind of entertainment whatever you like it or not. Just like action movie, romance drama, whatever. Anime is created to entertain people, not toture them :o

[kj1980]

I have no idea how "mainstream" anime is in America.

But at least in Japan, you can say that anime is somewhat "mainstream." That, meaning there are two groups of people in Japan:

A. People who watch anime and read manga as kids, and "grow up" watching less and less anime, reading fewer and fewer manga as they age. In otherwords, they finds something else as a hobby (like sports, for example). The majority of the population consist of these people.

B. People who watch anime and read manga as kids, and "grow up" watching more and more anime, reading greater and greater manga as they age. These people, according to the level of in-depthness, find themselves diving into deeper realms of the otaku world (for example, doujinshi creation, garage-kit model making, going to animation schools, etc.).

[Joe Dalton]

the had been wtatching for 6 years o yee of little vision! :)

[kjwise]

It is getting to be mainstream. Here we get a shelf or two of Manga Entertainment releases in major dept stores, about 1/4 of the space for 'World Cinema'.

I still buy my DVDs from Japan though rather than from the US as the dubbing process takes too long and IMHO is a waste of time.

Until you can buy English subbed releases from Japan, I guess the world market for anime is too small to be called mainstream.

[method]

I would put anime in the niche entertainment category. Some titles are mainstream like Pokemon or DBZ, but those are the exceptions. I would define mainstream as being able to start a conversation with someone and they know what you are talking about.

[mr_green32]

and final fantasy 7 did nothing into blasting video games into the world! Pacman , mario, sonic, all before that!


Gotta stop you there, pal. I never said FFVII "blasted gaming into the world", I simply stated my observation of gaming both on a social and econimic level post-FFVII. Sure, everyone knew about games when it was released. No kidding. However, during the release, it recieved multiple magazine, television, newspaper and internet coverage. It was exposed to all forms of media like no other game. Who would expect to be reading Sports Illustrated and expect to see an add for the latest Mario? Well, after FFVII, you just might. Same goes for Madden NFL. Almost everywhere you go, someone has Madden 2003 or 04. People put PS2s in their vehicles just to play it on the go. It's amazing how far the industry has come. But I must say, over the past 5 years, video games have become mainstream. Look at the consumer margins for games around Atari's time, then Nintendo's time, Playstation's time, and now. You'll see a HUGE flux. There are over 70 different magazines dedicated to gaming. When I started, there were 15. Not including the small, fan-based mags. You've got to admit: gaming is more "out in the open" now than ever, and in my opinion, it started with the Playstation and, to be specific, FFVII.

[Kobugodo]

Anime isn't going mainstream... it's a little more popular... and getting more exposure for sure. And the reason it's easier to find anime in stores is because of DVDs... If it wasn't for DVD's becoming a standard. you wouldn't find it at your nearest video store. I work in a video/music store... and dvd's not only made way for anime... but made way for lots of foreign movies. I don't have to go downtown to a small independently owned store that sales exclusively foreign films.

[maxthelostboy]

Gotta stop you there, pal. I never said FFVII "blasted gaming into the world", I simply stated my observation of gaming both on a social and econimic level post-FFVII. Sure, everyone knew about games when it was released. No kidding. However, during the release, it recieved multiple magazine, television, newspaper and internet coverage. It was exposed to all forms of media like no other game. Who would expect to be reading Sports Illustrated and expect to see an add for the latest Mario? Well, after FFVII, you just might. Same goes for Madden NFL. Almost everywhere you go, someone has Madden 2003 or 04. People put PS2s in their vehicles just to play it on the go. It's amazing how far the industry has come. But I must say, over the past 5 years, video games have become mainstream. Look at the consumer margins for games around Atari's time, then Nintendo's time, Playstation's time, and now. You'll see a HUGE flux. There are over 70 different magazines dedicated to gaming. When I started, there were 15. Not including the small, fan-based mags. You've got to admit: gaming is more "out in the open" now than ever, and in my opinion, it started with the Playstation and, to be specific, FFVII.
Final fantasy Vii has nothing to do with it. I have lots of old magazines pre playstation and they have pictures of video game ads in them. I think u mean final fantasy 7 launhced the final fantasy series higher then it's ever been but video games no. Mario was already a known name by them. I bet more people on the street would know who mario is than cloud.
but each his own:) I respect your idea alot:)

[mr_green32]

I see. Narrowing it down to a specific game is a bit much. Gomen. I would say that, given my experience, around the mid-to-late 90s is when the gaming industry hit it's boom. Hope it stays that way, and I believe it will. Viva-la-gaming!

[CC Ricers]

You can get DVD sets of Family Guy and The Simpsons at $40 for over 25 episodes. The day that legitimate anime becomes that cheap is the day that it is mainstream.

Right now I don't think it's mainstream because it's not covered too much in mainstream entertainment publications. You might read a little blurb of a new Miyazaki movie or see a review, but it usually doesn't go deeper than that. Nope, the 'anime buzz' segment is still a long way off.

[GreyArea]

I see. Narrowing it down to a specific game is a bit much. Gomen. I would say that, given my experience, around the mid-to-late 90s is when the gaming industry hit it's boom. Hope it stays that way, and I believe it will. Viva-la-gaming!
Sorry, going OT again, but Tomb Raider did more for the mainstream appeal of video games than FF7 did.

And prior to that, it was Sony's entrance into the video games market, their big push on the Playstation which made it living room entertainment for the masses.

There was no single thing that tipped it over.

[CC Ricers]

I agree. Tomb Raider did more than FF7. The N64 was dominating the PS1 in monthly sales before that. FF7 just made RPGs 'cool', just like GoldenEye and Turok popularized FPS games for consoles.

[hobobaggins]

haha! when FFVII or whatever came out, i was playing supernintendo.. :P

you guys sound so old. (well. alot older than me)

You can get DVD sets of Family Guy and The Simpsons at $40 for over 25 episodes. The day that legitimate anime becomes that cheap is the day that it is mainstream. I completely and totally agree with you. though we all know that that is never going to happen.

[mr_green32]

And prior to that, it was Sony's entrance into the video games market, their big push on the Playstation which made it living room entertainment for the masses.

The Playstation was released in Sept 95, but SCEA was established in May 94. Their add campaign, combined with pushing their new hardware into the market, helped their success even before the system was released. Then, once it was, it went big. That, in my opinion, is where it started. Live long, Sony. And gaming.

[alchemistfanatic344]

Well 6 years ago there want much licensing going on I mean even today we are just getting stuff that was released in japan 6 or 7 years ago i mean the samauri troopers OVA's just came out last year but they were released in Japan like 8-9 years ago. Anime has been mainstream in Japan for a long time America is simply catching up witht the big boys and its about time. theres only so many times you can watch Sailor moon or DBZ before your tired(and i realize that there are more anime than those two so i would really apreciate it if you wouldn't point out the obvious fact that there are tons of anime out today i simply making a point). Personally i think going mainstream is good Anime, in my opinion, is much more than just a cartoon I mean in Gundam wing alone you experience many philosophies on the concepts of war peace and the complexity of the human mind. Again in Evangelion I myself discovered new concepts that changed my opinions on people in general and people as a whole (the AT field concept gave me chill bumps). So i think Anime can teach people a lot aswell as entertain

[alchemistfanatic344]

[B] Now every 8 yr old thinks he's the #1 freak because he can name all the characters in Cowboy Beebop.[B]

:topicoff:

Wow 8 year olds a re watching the work that will become a genre in itself....cool.

[dragonz20]

Maybe it's not mainstream yet but it's pretty darn close. Pokemon, sailor moon, Yu-Gi-Oh, cardcaptors, DBZ.. that's anime right there. just because they're not buying the dvds because it's too damn expensive doesn't mean it's not mainstream u forget the videogames (pokemon), the posters, collector's item, the toys, etc... remember transformers WAY back then. I never owned the whole VHS collection of transformers and i think few of us did... but who will argue against me when i say that transformers was mainstream?... toys were selling like crazy.

come to think of it, i think anime is mainstream... i think it's because we (anime fans) are way ahead of everyone else when it comes to anime... we watch anime that won't be released legally for at least 2-3 years if at all and i think that's why some of us may believe that anime is not mainstream because they're not up to where we are.

[mr_green32]

I agree, alchemist. I think going mainstream is a good thing. Putting companies behind anime does alot for us mere hobbyists. With more funds behind the franchise, we can finally have easier access to those anime we love and wish for. I hope anime stays on this track forever, bringing quality animation and story to generations to come. Time will tell.

About Japanese games: if you stack our library with Japan's, for any system you'll see not only a large quantity difference, but also a very large genre difference. Their gaming culture is so different from ours. The games we bring over here arte ones that cater to the US' likes. There are quite a few games that will never make it over here not because we're "behind the game" (no pun intended), but because our gaming crave is different from theirs. Recent example: the latest Tokyo Gameshow had a very nice booth set up for Half Life 2. Completely void of people. No one cared. However, a new horse-racing sim was crammed full of onlookers. Odd huh? We're 2 different countries with 2 different outlooks for gaming, but one thing is clear: we love 'em.

Gaming and anime 4ever!!!

[method]

While those titles are in the mainstream that doesn't mean the whole thing known as anime is mainstream.

Most people don't know about Evangelion, Rahxehon, or any none televised series.

[Sailordareone2300]

I hope anime never goes Totally mainstream Then all The anime will be as bad as pokemon Etc...

[Joe Dalton]

anime is mainstream.
I mean almost noone can name all the marvel shows does that mean marvel isnt mainstream?
There are tons of anime that are verry well known

[Sailordareone2300]

I meant Mainstream like Pokemon

[method]

anime is mainstream.
I mean almost noone can name all the marvel shows does that mean marvel isnt mainstream?
There are tons of anime that are verry well known

More people know about the Marvel characters than most anime characters or movies, and comic books are not mainstream.

[Joe Dalton]

Lets try to ask the same thing in japan...... the world IS bigger then just the west ya know.
And more people know pokemon wich is an anime then marvel these days =/
Anime as a genre is mainstream but not every anime show is mainstream.
I mean anime is a VERRY large concept.
Just like some movies are mainstream and some are not the same goes for anime.

[maxthelostboy]

it hink hes right i beleve more people know marvel than anime guys still marvel's been pumping there characters for years with big budget movies and so on. and how can u compare a WHOLE source of entertainment to say one comic company Marvel? Almost all comic fans i know hate all manga for some reason go figure. Even if they both use the same plots over and over. BOy finds all these hots girls that fight over him. Magneto trying to destroy the world for the 100th time(though hes been dead but came back lately)

[method]

Lets try to ask the same thing in japan...... the world IS bigger then just the west ya know.
And more people know pokemon wich is an anime then marvel these days =/
Anime as a genre is mainstream but not every anime show is mainstream.
I mean anime is a VERRY large concept.
Just like some movies are mainstream and some are not the same goes for anime.

Of course anime is mainstream in Japan. It is a Japanese product last time I looked. The world doesn't really pertain to this topic anyway. From the topic the creator was infering in western countries or more likely North America. Actually considering that Marvel comics has been around since 1939, I doubt that more people know about pokemon compared to Marvel. Spiderman and the two X-men movies alone have generated over 700 million dollars just at the US box office.

We only have handful of titles that the general public knows about in any form which would not make the whole genre for the lack of better word mainstream.

defintion of mainstream
The prevailing current of thought, influence, or activity.

Can you say that anime is prevailant in any society other than Japan?

[babbito2k]

Of course anime is mainstream in Japan... Can you say that anime is prevailant in any society other than Japan?
Um, anime isn't "mainstream" in Japan exactly... lots of older Japanese people haven't ever cared to watch it or have stopped or whatever. These people don't consider anime, manga, pop music and videogames to be "Japanese culture." Not that they're 100% right, but it's good to realize this if you are going to talk to Japanese people.

Japan is making more money now off offshore pop culture licensing now than ever before, and it is having an impact on other countries - and it's not like the people who need to know this are unaware. But lots of Americans would say American culture is more about older stuff like farming, folk music, clog dancing or whatever than it is about rap music and movies... anime is just another form of entertainment.

As far as whether or not anime will be "ruined" by going "mainstream," it peaked out in the mid-90s and has been going downhill since then because of the depression in Japan and the saturation of the Japanese market.

If you doubt this then try to name ONE director who is going to replace EITHER Anno or Miyazaki and become a big name like either of these two. Or even name a new studio (and there are plenty of new studios) that will catch up to where Ghibli or GAINAX were back in the day.

[shinakuma31]

believe it or not but Final Fantasy VII did indeed HELP bring videogaming (at that time) into the mainstream. before FFVII, the playstation was just a great console for those gamers. but when games like these were coming out that were truly revolutionary, other people began to take notice and FFVII become one of the systems most strongest selling games OF ALL TIMES. if any of you want i can go into an old PSM magazine and quote thier sales numbers (when this game was already greatest hits)

FFVII also brought RPG into the US market mainstream because it was also a genre for those truly dedicated to rpgs. FFVII drew in people who didnt even know RPGs existed or even know these games were fun at all. (thats how we come to have the old argument old school FF vs new FF (ff7 and later)

think about the rpg games before FF7, what did we have? Beyond the Beyond, Suikoden, Vandal Hearts. all games that are 2d based (vandal hearts had 3d background but used 2d-like animation) and graphics that resembled the previous popular system, SNES. FF7 was really the first RPG to use intergrated FMV,Polygonal characters (on the exploration map),and stuff like that. if anyone thinks it wasnt revolutionary then they dont know wtf there talking about.

and finally about Tomb Raider making more impact then FF7, i think you need to get the facts straight. which series is still alive and kicking? exactly. Tomb Raider had gotten attention ONLY for the busty babe on the cover. it was NOT critically acclaimed and it has NOT sold more than FF7.

[method]

True. I guess I should have said more mainstream than America. Great point about the saturation of anime in Japan. Sooner or later, we are going to hit that point.

The rise in popularityof videogames cannot be attibutted to one game.

[mr_green32]

believe it or not but Final Fantasy VII did indeed HELP bring videogaming (at that time) into the mainstream. before FFVII, the playstation was just a great console for those gamers. but when games like these were coming out that were truly revolutionary, other people began to take notice and FFVII become one of the systems most strongest selling games OF ALL TIMES. if any of you want i can go into an old PSM magazine and quote thier sales numbers (when this game was already greatest hits)

FFVII also brought RPG into the US market mainstream because it was also a genre for those truly dedicated to rpgs. FFVII drew in people who didnt even know RPGs existed or even know these games were fun at all. (thats how we come to have the old argument old school FF vs new FF (ff7 and later)

think about the rpg games before FF7, what did we have? Beyond the Beyond, Suikoden, Vandal Hearts. all games that are 2d based (vandal hearts had 3d background but used 2d-like animation) and graphics that resembled the previous popular system, SNES. FF7 was really the first RPG to use intergrated FMV,Polygonal characters (on the exploration map),and stuff like that. if anyone thinks it wasnt revolutionary then they dont know wtf there talking about.

and finally about Tomb Raider making more impact then FF7, i think you need to get the facts straight. which series is still alive and kicking? exactly. Tomb Raider had gotten attention ONLY for the busty babe on the cover. it was NOT critically acclaimed and it has NOT sold more than FF7.


I think it's time I cleared this issue up. Gomen, as it was my fault. I said something that I was confusing with a past debate about gaming. I had made and defended the statement that FFVII brought RPGs into the spotlight (or mainstream of gaming, if you will). True, RPGs have always been a high-rated gaming genre, but it wasn't until FFVII that RPGs finally got the attention they deserved. Movie sequences, the killing off of a main character, a ruthless bad-ass known by all. And I agree, look at the sales of that time. This game caught alot of people's eyes. I hope this clears up the confusion. My apologies for my ignorance.

[MoS]

You can get DVD sets of Family Guy and The Simpsons at $40 for over 25 episodes. The day that legitimate anime becomes that cheap is the day that it is mainstream.

Right now I don't think it's mainstream because it's not covered too much in mainstream entertainment publications. You might read a little blurb of a new Miyazaki movie or see a review, but it usually doesn't go deeper than that. Nope, the 'anime buzz' segment is still a long way off.
Not only that you can now by tv Shows on dvd ie Friends dvd box set goes for $30.

[hunterx]

I don't think it is mainstream at all. it's hard to tell if you are into anime but most people in america just view it simply as cartoons.

and that dude was right.. the dvds are too expensive

[Koenig]

As far as whether or not anime will be "ruined" by going "mainstream," it peaked out in the mid-90s and has been going downhill since then because of the depression in Japan and the saturation of the Japanese market.

If you doubt this then try to name ONE director who is going to replace EITHER Anno or Miyazaki and become a big name like either of these two. Or even name a new studio (and there are plenty of new studios) that will catch up to where Ghibli or GAINAX were back in the day.I strongly doubt this. You seem to me like a nostalgic who grew up with the series of the mid-90s, they being the first anime series you watched you just have fonder memories of them. Nothing wrong about being nostalgic, but it tends to cloud judgement a bit ;) "Ahhh, those were the good old days, nothing made today comes close to how good things were back then" :)

Studio GONZO seems very promising, making very good quality series in the last couple of years. Or what about Bones ? Weren't they the ones behind Cowboy Bebop ? Oh wait, what about the effect of CG on the quality of animation in general ? Isn't that a good thing opening a whole new realm of possibilities for people with whacky imaginations ?

Ghibli or GAINAX's name was not made instantly, as in all fields the "greats" are only recognised as such in posterity.
Ghibli existed a while before it was called Ghibli, and got its actual godlike status not by releasing one film, but after Nausicaa, Porco Rosso, Mononoke Hime, etc..
GAINAX only got the reputation after making NGE, before that it was pretty obscure, and has consolidated it with more crazy stuff like FLCL...
Recognition isn't instantaneous, it takes time.

As for the directors, you gave the example of Anno. Maybe you forget that 10 years before making Evangelion he was working on Nausicaa (IIRC he was in charge of the design of the warrior-god) ? Likewise there are people working in the animation industry at the moment that aren't famous yet, but will be in 10 years' time.

[babbito2k]

... You seem to me like a nostalgic who grew up with the series of the mid-90s, they being the first anime series you watched you just have fonder memories of them. Nothing wrong about being nostalgic, but it tends to cloud judgement a bit ;) "Ahhh, those were the good old days, nothing made today comes close to how good things were back then" :)...
Well, maybe that's "how I seem" to you but you are making that up. I certainly didn't say anything like that; maybe I am interested in seeing quality work come out in the present day just as you may be. (The first anime I ever saw was made in the 60s; most of it was pretty lame). And I think it's a waste of time to get into a dismissal of me rather than present a refutation of what I am saying. It doesn't make your case any stronger.

I will turn that argument around: people who only have more recent work to go by are caught in the position of defending what is dear to their hearts regardless of quality. They don't know the difference between what they like and what stands the test of time.

90% of the old stuff is crap, it's the same proportion in the new stuff. But I haven't seen much lately (except for Ghost in the Shell SAC) that is even trying to be a big show like some of the shows from the 90s. They just come and go, and I think the economic factors I cited are a reason for this. A lot of work is now being done in Korea. This doesn't speak well of what is happening in Japan.

I am not convinced that CG does much more than cut down on production costs; the only show I ever saw where I really enjoyed the CG was Earth Girl Arujuna. People collect cels because they value the work embodied in them; computer models don't possess the same value.

As far as what will happen with studios and directors in the future, I hope you are right. Gonzo is a good example of a studio with talent and a fair amount of ambition. Your linking of the fortunes of GAINAX and the making of Evangelion reinforce what I am saying - unless an effort is made to produce a big series there is no way to rise above the crowd and produce a work that will be remembered in the future.

[Koenig]

Well, maybe that's "how I seem" to you but you are making that up. I certainly didn't say anything like that; maybe I am interested in seeing quality work come out in the present day just as you may be. (The first anime I ever saw was made in the 60s; most of it was pretty lame). And I think it's a waste of time to get into a dismissal of me rather than present a refutation of what I am saying. It doesn't make your case any stronger.
Wasn't personnal, but a lot of people do tend to think like that (nostalgic). I meant "it seems" in the true sense of the word, not implying "i think you are". My apologies for not expressing myself well :D

IMHO CG doesn't make a show necesseraly any better, but as you say it cuts down production costs. That's a good thing for smaller studios that can concentrate on making a kickass anime (i.e. taking more risks by doing something original) with budget being less of a worry, so indirectly it increases the possibility of interesting stuff being made.

As for the "Korean factor", I read recently that anime production had since always been subcontracted to korean animators. It's a fairly recent example but The Simpsons was animated in Korea. Only now, the Koreans are starting to make anime of their own, not just doing subcontracted work. Please correct me if I'm wrong :)

Anyway I have to agree with you, there have been no major shows in the last few years that have revolutionized the genre and created hordes of fans.

Other things have happened though: the image of anime is changing, and that's bound to have an impact on the industry. Films like Spirited Away helped change the general public's perspective on Japanimation. At least that was the case in France, where the image of anime is poor, thanks to shows like DBZ or just stuff totally inappropriate for children aired in kids' programs which made a lot of parents think anime is violent, of poor quality and superficial.