Magic and Technology of MGLN [Archive]

Outlaender

2007-04-10, 17:10

I like the way StrikerS is starting to emphasize the support elements of the TSAB, and an advance magical/technological society. From what I understand of the backround, mages (at least significantly powerful ones) are quite a minority in relation to the general populace- people still use airports, vehicles- normal transportation infrastructure, which means that magic isn't applicable for large scale general purposes- i.e. people aren't teleporting around, there aren't any signs of antigravity technology, beyond the hovering "Autospheres" (Fate and Hayate were observing from a perfectly recognizable helicopter). Not to mention the fire-fighters, and the command APC we see... Since Hayate's new unit is supposed to be "Mobile", I reckon that refers to using ground and air transport (one which we glimpse in the OP anim., along with a character that appears to be Chief Maintence/Mechanic) to get to the LZ, along with the capability of transporting/teleporting long distances/off-world to get to incidents, with a chamber like the Arthra has. 8 people make up the primary action squads (Forward Stars- Nanonha, Vita, Subaru, Teeana) /(Forward Lightning- Fate, Signum, Erio, Carol). It still remains to be seen how active the command/support team (Hayate, Rein Zwei, Zafira, Shamal, Acoss, and perhaps a few others) are going to be in the missions. Still, from the glimpses of the Unit HQ building, and the troops standing ready for inspection seen thus far in the manga and anime, there's quite a bit of second line personnel for the unit. Alas, we'll probably have to wait until ep 4 for a real mission (ep 3. will probably end with their first scramble)

Kha

2007-05-05, 12:34

As recommended by my learned colleagues, I shall be gathering up and publishing all the tech talk that has appeared spontaneously in the other threads and post them here for reference. Here's the first one:

Barrier Jackets: A Review of Henshin and Some Defensive Capabilities

This article should be cited as:

Kha, LoweGear, Darco_emp, Meophist, Nightengale. Barrier Jackets: A Review of Henshin and Some Defensive Capabilities. General Sorcerology. Animesuki Nanoha Forums Supplement. Year 0071 Issue 1233 Pages: 120-141

Abstract by LoweGear:

1. Nanomachines are the base on which Barrier Jackets form, and that the nanites convert magical energy into matter, using the principles of conversion of matter to energy ala E=MC2.
2. With the speed of light being slower in dimensional space, less energy is required to convert said energy to matter, thus making said method plausible.
3. Even if the Barrier Jackets are exposed to AMF, the energy required to convert their matter back to energy would be immense, due to the speed of light constant being immensely large, which means massive amounts of energy would have to be expended to dissipate a barrier jacket. So Barrier Jackets are unaffected by AMF and so we don't see anyone get strip naked of their BJ's when entering AMF, as evidenced in Epi 5.

Full Text

This paper shall summarize the main points of the discussion in the thread, and will use the original authors' words as far as possible.

I've always interpreted the device heshin (or any henshin for the matter) to be a conversion of energy to matter supported by nanomachines, given that magic in Nanohaverse is tech-supported. Upon activation the device scatters the nanites into the space around themselves and start imbibing the mage's maryoku. The speed of light for the dimenisional space where maryoku is derived can be infered to be much less than that of normal energy, since its so readily converted to solid objects in summoning magic, then couple it with the nanites acting as a catalyst for the conversion and so we get the "bits and pieces forming out of the air" look for devices and the "glittering wipedown" look for BJs during henshin.
For something to have a different speed of light constant, it has to originate from another space. In Nanohaverse we have the in-canon demonstration of the existence of interdimensional "space", something I call "Voidspace" cos it is completely devoid of standard matter and therefore lacks time and space in the "normal" sense.

Voidspace is filled instead with quarks and disturbances, and the energy existing in that system takes a different form, and when that happens all the constants we know are all thrown out of whack. Assuming quantum theory holds true in that space, a constant can exist in many states (I noe a constant variable is an oxymoron, but nothing is supposed to makes sense in voidspace) and hence the speed of light would have a variable state.

Now that we noe that, I shall go onto the next point. What the nanites do is to just provide a condition that pegs speed of light at a ridiculously small value for a very short time, allowing them to tap and warp maryoku into matter. At this point the conversion is still reversible, and so the energy-matter mix is seen as a glowing shroud of that person's magic color.

When the nanites shut down that condition in a controlled manner, the ethereal matter ends up trapped in reality as the speed of light constant increases out of reach. Now that it is more stable to remain as matter, the device/BJ 'materializes'.

Why doesn't the summoned systems change back to magic upon exposure? Since its already convert to matter, even if the BJ and device is exposed to the AMF (I see it as a maryoku disruption field that works the same way as the Ion Disruptors protecting the NOD's Temple Prime) in which the supporting nanites would be shut down due to the lack of maryoku, the speed of light constant would be the barrier for conversion back to energy (its smaller, but still noticibly there, for even 1000th of Earth's C, that's still a big number. That's why I feel that the nanite were cataysts of sorts as well). In simpler terms the Device and BJ would require great agitation to disrupt the temporal atomic nucleii and convert the system back to magic, and what's lost would only be the summoned systems' ability to regenerate and regulate maryuko into castable spells.

I am assuming that the Laws of Equivalent Exchange, the Joules Principle and E=mc(2) holds true in the Nanohaverse. You noe how the laws of nature get warped from dimension to dimension.

Darco_emp replies:

From your theory assuming quarks exist in voidspace and if magic does have the dual properites of enengy and matter (based on Physical/magical damage theory), Then even without nanomachines barrier jacket can still form with sub-atomic bonding of quarks, thus even elimating the need for nanomachines since TSAB does not seem have such tech at the moment. Since I was bored I'll even give the math of the energy the drones need to genarate to convert it back to energy. assume it can even do so when the barrier jacket are made of stable atoms.... so assuming barrier jacket weights 200grams from Kha's theorm, E=mc^2+E(t0) AMF need to output -600*10^9J to reverse the effect if AMF have 100% energy efficiency, I should think the energy should be spend on a nuke instead.

The nanomachines provide the stabilizing backbone of control to direct the system instead of it clumping together and forming crystals like expended mana does on its own. And as long as the speed of light is changed to something small, the transformation of energy to matter is easier.

Defensive Capabilities: Impacts

I stand by the wiki definition of how BJ's work, especially on the point of Reactor Purge, in that the jacket literally explodes in the opposite direction of the incoming impact, nullifying the attack. But unlike a tank, a person is very light, and so there would be some feedback (seen in Nanoha being thrown out of the blast). That's where I think the second layer comes into play. It distributes the self-explosion about the whole mage, and itself being a shock-absorber as well, the feedback doesn't hurt as much as the actual thing. It'll still give u a shock, but at least you're alive. This does not apply to normal hits that the BJ can take without resorting to exploding, otherwise a heavy battle would equal a round of strip poker! :heh:

Defensive Capabilities: Harsh Environment Survival

All TSAB operatives can function normally in voidspace, the HARSHEST space to be in the multiverse cos its so disorganized that anything ordered is instantly torn apart. Radiation, Absolute Zero temperatures, DNA-scrambling and other Naaru-knows-what destructive forces await the unprotected. That speaks volumes of the protective capabilities of even the lowest BJ. This is where my nanite idea comes into heavy play, where they set up a super-thin self-sustaining environment field protecting the mage from the elements.

It stops pathogens, blocks out radiation, allows underwater operation, keeps skin smooth and shiny, and even prevents scarring - evidence by Fate still having flawless complexion after literally getting whipped. :naughty:

If someone is exposed to an AMF in voidspace, would he/she died instantly as the nanites shut down? Further canon evidence is needed to verify this theory.

References

Animesuki Nanoha Forums. Episode 03 Discussion / Poll [Online] Available from: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=915148&highlight=nanite#post915148

Kikaifan

2007-05-05, 15:34

Question: Wouldn't the requirement that energy remain constant demand that any difference in energy between the BJ in extradimensional space and in 'real' space be made up in the process of transferring it between the two?

I stand by the wiki definition of how BJ's work, especially on the point of Reactor Purge, in that the jacket literally explodes in the opposite direction of the incoming impact, nullifying the attack. But unlike a tank, a person is very light, and so there would be some feedback (seen in Nanoha being thrown out of the blast).

Knockback as a result of reactive shielding alone is implausible due to the power of the attacks used. The forces involved in the reactive effect would have to be huge, more than enough to splatter the mage (for one thing, a tank's reactive armor would splatter a person wearing it, and the midrange beam attacks in Nanoha look like they could compare in energy to your average APFSDS round to me), which implies that they're somehow compensated for (multilayered BJ with inner layers absorbing force from reacting outer layers sounds fine to me). Similar to the ridiculous 'tumbling bridge crew' in Star Trek, the only explanation I find acceptable is that whatever system is compensating for the reactive force just happens to be well-tuned enough to bring the force within human tolerances but isn't perfectly-tuned so as to null the force entirely. Which kinda beggars belief itself, but it works for me...

mdauben

2007-05-05, 16:11

I stand by the wiki definition of how BJ's work, especially on the point of Reactor Purge, in that the jacket literally explodes in the opposite direction of the incoming impact, nullifying the attack.
Isn't the "reactive armor" feature of Reactor Purge actually a separate power, or at least an upgrade to Barrier Jacket that Nonoha did not originally have? The way it's listed in Wiki gives the impression that Barrier Jacket is more like a force field, and Reactor Purge is the explosive defence. :confused:

Knockback as a result of reactive shielding alone is implausible due to the power of the attacks used. The forces involved in the reactive effect would have to be huge, more than enough to splatter the mage
One possible explination occures to me. In "real life" reactive armor doesn't just knock the projectile away, what it does is disrupt the explosive attack of the projectile (many AP rounds use a shaped charge which generates a sort of high-temperature plasma jet which is what actually pierces the armor). Perhaps defensive powers like Reactor Purge do the same thing to magic? Use a counter-charge to disrupt the focused nature of the spell, so that the underlying Barrier Jacket can effectivly resist the now difussed attack?

Kikaifan

2007-05-05, 16:21

I know Kontakt-V at least works primarily by the lateral movement of the plates sandwiching the explosive, resulting in multiplication of their effective thickness by several times and possibly the disruption of the HEAT jet and severing of a penetrator's point.

I'd imagine the reactive effect in BJ is just a disruption of whatever features of the offensive energies make them a good penetrator of the armor/shield layers like you say, not an out-and-out attempt to equal the force of the attack, but I'm dubious that the heavier attacks used by the Nanoha mages could be disrupted without a significant force.

Also, while I'd like to imagine that the BJ form a comprehensive defense like we've been discussing, it could be that 'reactor purge' refers only to the complete destruction of the jacket to form a last-ditch reactive defense, as when Nanoha was protected against Vita's final rocket-hammer strike only by the expenditure of the entire energy of her BJ.

Woden

2007-05-05, 16:33

I somewhat doubt that nanomachines are involved in the creation of Barrier Jackets. As we can see from the binding spells of Yuuno in the first series, mages seem to be capable of creating effects that appear to be solid (capable of appearing to break) without the use of an intelligent device.

Edit: Couldn't the following also serve as an alternative?

Mythology is filled with references to objects that should not be able to withstand forces that they should not be able to. Two instances that come to mind are the Nemean (I think that's how you spell it) Lion slain by Hercules, and magical properties of the blood of the dragon Fafnir. All of Hercules' weapons failed to penetrate the skin of the Nemean Lion, and the blood of Fafnir conferred invulnerability to every part of Sigurd's body that it touched.

If we look at magic as the process of bringing substances into being, it is quite possible that barrier jacket is merely the product of specialized magic. It is also possible that the creation is merely the harnessing and transmutation of nearby substances and energy into a physical form. If we say that there is a natural order (as one could infer from the insane amount of scientific knowledge) it is quite possible that the apparent "dissolving" or "bursting" of barrier jackets is simply the energy and substance drawn upon returning to its original place.

In this case, the intelligent device serves the role of managing and maintaining the use of energy according to the instructions/programming inherent in its being. The device has a certain form of the barrier jacket imprinted into it upon initial activation (perhaps by user), and it continues to use that form until the instructions are altered.

Kha

2007-05-05, 23:32

Question: Wouldn't the requirement that energy remain constant demand that any difference in energy between the BJ in extradimensional space and in 'real' space be made up in the process of transferring it between the two?

------

Knockback as a result of reactive shielding alone is implausible due to the power of the attacks used. The forces involved in the reactive effect would have to be huge, more than enough to splatter the mage (for one thing, a tank's reactive armor would splatter a person wearing it, and the midrange beam attacks in Nanoha look like they could compare in energy to your average APFSDS round to me), which implies that they're somehow compensated for (multilayered BJ with inner layers absorbing force from reacting outer layers sounds fine to me). Similar to the ridiculous 'tumbling bridge crew' in Star Trek, the only explanation I find acceptable is that whatever system is compensating for the reactive force just happens to be well-tuned enough to bring the force within human tolerances but isn't perfectly-tuned so as to null the force entirely. Which kinda beggars belief itself, but it works for me...

I didn't quite get your question but I'll try and answer it. Energy is not transferred from extra-dimensional space but drawn from it by virtue of several processes (which I won't go onto just yet) to build the BJ. Yes some mana is used to draw more from extra-dimensional space for it is an active process, but enough is left to be worked on by the nanites. Most of the formation process occurs because of the controlled manipulation of the speed of light due to artificial conditions created by the nanites as they deconstruct and save the mage's clothes and build up the BJ. Does that answer it?

Sidenote:

The special form of numerous and externally derived energy used specifically to drive magical processes is what we call Mana, as opposed to the somewhat limited and internally derived type generated by one's Linker Core which has many names like Reiatsu, Furyoku, Chii, Chakra etc, etc.

Isn't the "reactive armor" feature of Reactor Purge actually a separate power, or at least an upgrade to Barrier Jacket that Nonoha did not originally have? The way it's listed in Wiki gives the impression that Barrier Jacket is more like a force field, and Reactor Purge is the explosive defence. :confused:

~~~~~~

One possible explination occures to me. In "real life" reactive armor doesn't just knock the projectile away, what it does is disrupt the explosive attack of the projectile (many AP rounds use a shaped charge which generates a sort of high-temperature plasma jet which is what actually pierces the armor). Perhaps defensive powers like Reactor Purge do the same thing to magic? Use a counter-charge to disrupt the focused nature of the spell, so that the underlying Barrier Jacket can effectivly resist the now difussed attack?
I know Kontakt-V at least works primarily by the lateral movement of the plates sandwiching the explosive, resulting in multiplication of their effective thickness by several times and possibly the disruption of the HEAT jet and severing of a penetrator's point.

I'd imagine the reactive effect in BJ is just a disruption of whatever features of the offensive energies make them a good penetrator of the armor/shield layers like you say, not an out-and-out attempt to equal the force of the attack, but I'm dubious that the heavier attacks used by the Nanoha mages could be disrupted without a significant force.

Also, while I'd like to imagine that the BJ form a comprehensive defense like we've been discussing, it could be that 'reactor purge' refers only to the complete destruction of the jacket to form a last-ditch reactive defense, as when Nanoha was protected against Vita's final rocket-hammer strike only by the expenditure of the entire energy of her BJ.

Ok I should be clearer in my explanation. Like you all said, what I really was talking about was how Reactor Purge worked. That does not cover all bases on how the BJ works to protect the mage. It has 3 layers of defence: First the intangible Protection field, then the smart material that is flexible like cloth, probably "breathes like Egyption cotton" to quote one superhero costume tailor, and yet can resist most impacts, and is the layer that self-destructs to oppose the impact when the BJ is subjected to impact beyond its limit, then the distribution layer that prevents the mage from being crushed by her own BJ exploding to resist the attack.

I somewhat doubt that nanomachines are involved in the creation of Barrier Jackets. As we can see from the binding spells of Yuuno in the first series, mages seem to be capable of creating effects that appear to be solid (capable of appearing to break) without the use of an intelligent device.

Edit: Couldn't the following also serve as an alternative?

Mythology is filled with references to objects that should not be able to withstand forces that they should not be able to. Two instances that come to mind are the Nemean (I think that's how you spell it) Lion slain by Hercules, and magical properties of the blood of the dragon Fafnir. All of Hercules' weapons failed to penetrate the skin of the Nemean Lion, and the blood of Fafnir conferred invulnerability to every part of Sigurd's body that it touched.

If we look at magic as the process of bringing substances into being, it is quite possible that barrier jacket is merely the product of specialized magic. It is also possible that the creation is merely the harnessing and transmutation of nearby substances and energy into a physical form. If we say that there is a natural order (as one could infer from the insane amount of scientific knowledge) it is quite possible that the apparent "dissolving" or "bursting" of barrier jackets is simply the energy and substance drawn upon returning to its original place.

In this case, the intelligent device serves the role of managing and maintaining the use of energy according to the instructions/programming inherent in its being. The device has a certain form of the barrier jacket imprinted into it upon initial activation (perhaps by user), and it continues to use that form until the instructions are altered.

Yes that's true. I approached Nanohaverse device with a mindset that everything has some science in it, however warped it might be, and hence my preference for nanomachines over pure enchanting magic in explanation of certain things

I'd like to point out that Yuuno does not create a barrier jacket for himself with his magic. My explanation for this distinction is that, maybe in the Nanohaverse, while a person's wielding of magic can create solid objects on its own, for more precise and complicated objects like the smart multi-layered defenses of the Barrier Jacket, the precision offered by mechanical tools like Devices is required. Its a bit like an unaided human being able to build a rather large integrated circuit, but a robot is able to build things to a micron accurately and quickly, thus achieving more with less space used.

Darco_emp

2007-05-05, 23:35

Clarifications with issues regarding barrier jacket:

The very reason that sub-atomic/atomic bonding, which in turn forms the foundations of barrier jacket, is brought up is to counter the redundancy of maintaining nanomachines.

With the assumption under the uncertainly of universal constants that is a direct result in the plane where the barrier jacket is formed. Based on Special relativity, new, heavier elements are formed using existing elements or with quarks and photon (1), which exist due to what I theorized: magic have properties of light. This process occurs
at a greatly lower energy requirements then the physical plane, as stated.

Now if the bonding on atomic level occurs, and compound is formed and produces the lattice that is the frame of barrier jacket, and thus keep a stable system. Then the demands that transfer between the two spaces requires is avoided.

(1). Experiment on heavy element formation: Li + p -> He

Kha, LoweGear, Darco_emp, Meophist, Nightengale, 0071, ‘Barrier Jackets: A Review of Henshin and Some Defensive Capabilities’, Magic and Technology of MGLN, vol. 01, no. 04, pp. 01.

Nightengale

2007-05-06, 00:10

Personally, I think that formation of Barrier Jackets is more of a layered process, in terms of defensive formats at least for the complex ones like the ones employed by Nanoha and Fate. Since I was the one who explored the magical formulaic equations = result thing, I'll use a similar argument and say that Barrier Jacket is probably like a layer of tri-supportive defensive protocol that is augmented on both non-physical emulation of wrap-on non-matter forming barriers (( which explains why they can crash to debris and not be cut/why henshin sequences are in mono-colours with no nipples etc )) alongside regular appliance of Barrier Jackets as we see it in the regular formation of the clothing used in, using similar arguments of magical output that balances sub-atomic bonding that is reinforced, something like vulcanized rubber as opposed to natural rubber in terms of molecular formation.

Though nanomachines is the bread and butter for all psuedo-science appliances on a semi-realistic plane of arguments, I think it's both a balance of magical energy released that converts the structure of the magical particles on an molecular level that creates a balance of energy conversion or matter conversion, or just outright concentrated raw magical output, that can be differentiated by differing executions of magical spells and effects that range from beams, to magical manipulation that resembles regular matter, elemental conversion of energies, among other things.

If I recall properly, didn't Chrono bleed in Nanoha? It might be a representation on how his BJ's constantly on, on the sense that it reflects a different formation where his actual BJ's doesn't completely materialize actual physical formation and is more on the outer, non-physical layers.

I'm starting to not make sense.

Darco_emp

2007-05-06, 00:46

Kikaifan

2007-05-06, 00:47

Darco_emp

2007-05-06, 01:01

I prefer an explanation where magical energy can take on some of the aspects of 'real' matter and energy (thus Fate's pseudoelectric attacks and the magically-created matter of barrier jackets, blood daggers, etc.)- the actual material is magical energy imitating physical matter.

I throught we have established that magical energy is a form of energy and thus does have the properties of energy and matter. I wish to point out however Fate's pseudoelectric attacks is ineffective against AMF, while we have not tested bloody dagger yet I will assume they are ineffective too. However the substance that Barrier Jacket have seems to be an exception to this.

Btw can I ask for a clarification on "magically-created matter"

Kha

2007-05-06, 01:08

Since in Nanoha, shields can be muti-layered then this can also be used to imply that Barrier Jacket can also be layered. This will resolves the issue regards to Reactor Purge, since as you state before one of defensive protocol should be able to absorb the forces.

Now with Barrier Jacket as outright concentrated raw magical output, this I would bring into dispute. One of the reason we are working under the assumption that Barrier Jacket is formed via Nanomachines/or Atomic bondings is that Barrier Jacket is not prone to disslotion in AMF. Therefore it must be something that is less subjective to interference, thus something other then a pure energy form.

As to Chrono bleed in Nanoha I really do not remember it...

Chrono was bleeding from a dorsal temporal inscision after soloing many of the golems at the Garden of Time back in S1. My guess was that the kid just wasn't packing enough protection, since he doesn't use a custom (and by anime-logic more uber) BJ. Enough to keep him alive in harsh environments, with maybe some emphasis on speed, comfort and stealth like what a sniper might opt for, but nothing spectacular in the defence dept. After all, we see that RH's BJ tanks better than Bard's, and we corelate that to how Fate is really after speed and dodge while Nanoha prefers to stand and blast.

Erio

2007-05-06, 01:31

Darco_emp

2007-05-06, 01:43

Kha

2007-05-06, 01:51

I hereby declare Kha as the Father of the Magic and Technology of MGLN thread.

lol Nice job, Kha.

Well, I was thinking... It was proved that BJs do not disappear inside an AMF. But I have the theory that the BJs are less effective inside the AMFs.

My theory is that, inside an AMF, waves of illogical magical strings (think of it as corrupted data) are combined with regular magical strings formed by spells corrupting the strings and thus disabling and nullifying said spells. If this is the case, then any magical barrier or shield imbued into the BJs are nullified as well. The BJs inside an AMF are but simple pieces of clothes.

(I hope that makes sense. Sorry :p)

Well, maybe Kha has some AMF report prepared for later posting.

It's all technobabble really. Another form of fanfiction I practice. Hahaha...

Your theory works fine so I'll just elaborate on the last bit there:

Disclaimer: I watched epi 5 closely using yesy for this one, so I might be getting some details wrong.

What I found was that even when nullified, the BJs still retain some of their defensive function, otherwise the above poster :heh: would've been completely owned and gone home in a squishy body bag from being crushed by the Drone. Instead I think the Gadget gave up and decided to toss him overboard for that uber Caro-boosted comeback.

This might suggest that while the magical component of the BJ has been disabled, the nanites might be still operating on emergency power derived from internally generated energy from the Linker Core since that's what they are always in direct contact with. It's rather limited compared to when running on mana, and so all of it is concentrated on keeping the mage alive, be it life support systems or moderate defences. My analogy is like how GSD Phase Shift armor-equpped mecha works when the power's cut; there's enough for life support and machinegun fire, but a light beam shot would just tear through it. That way, even in the worst circumstances at the very least the mage has a better chance of keeping his ass intact to fight another day.

That was the part I didn't quite agree, but I could be reading too much into the situation...

Hmm, Its interesting to think AMF as noises, which is the current research topic I'm doing. It is different to my theory with regards to AMF and magic in Nanoha in genral but it could indeed work.

I belive we still need to get through at least the theory of AMF, and also the bases of colour assoicated with magic.

So far this is what I've noted regarding AMFs:

1. They can be nullified by a decoy layer of resistant magic a la Variable Shoot.
2. They can be nullified by another magical enchantment, opening up avenues for a M-jammer Canceller.
3. They seem to have no effect on a person's Linker Core

I still can't quite make much of it myself with those points though. Can we hear your theory too?

As for magic circle color, I guess its something in-born, like one's fingerprints, that affects the frequency of mana (I'm assuming its a unique form of EM here) output from one's Linker Core. The devices themselves have a mana distiller of sorts that draws mana from the environment such that it amplifies the Linker Core's effect (and so no Linker, value = 0 and amplification of 0 is still 0) and creates a more powerful version of the spell than when casting without a device. As spells are an expression of one's will, it might be that the Linker Core's color is expressed when casting spells even through a device, and hence the different colors result.

Kikaifan

2007-05-06, 02:08

I throught we have established that magical energy is a form of energy and thus does have the properties of energy and matter. I wish to point out however Fate's pseudoelectric attacks is ineffective against AMF, while we have not tested bloody dagger yet I will assume they are ineffective too. However the substance that Barrier Jacket have seems to be an exception to this.

Btw can I ask for a clarification on "magically-created matter"

Magical energy as 'real' energy- It's not a form of energy as we understand it. Certainly not the way people think of 'energy' in terms of EM radiation. For one thing, it responds to human will.

I'm going out on what I see as a terribly short, unoriginal limb and sticking with the idea that 'magic' has its own rules. I find the entire idea that any of this stuff makes any sense purely in terms of our physical laws, that it's all just very advanced technology, to be preposterous. Magical law is separate from what we'd call physical law- if you define physical law to include magical law (since, after all, if they have rules for interacting with each other they're really just part of the same system), then it is not the physical law we know.

Barrier jackets in AMF- in StrikerS manga it was stated that a mage in an AMF will lose basic defenses, and the characters generally acted like AMF had absolute effect out to a certain range and none outside that. However, in the StrikerS anime they act more like AMF has a limited effect that decreases in power with distance like a 'real' field. In anime context the survival of the barrier jacket can be explained by barrier jackets incorporating a permanent form of the spell-protection/barrier-inversion techs used by Tiana and Carol against AMF (if barrier jackets' relative permanence and long set-up time allows the incorporation of relatively complex effects it would go a long way towards providing an in-setting explanation why there seems to be such a bias towards defense and character durability in Nanohaverse, though whether AMF-resistance is a standard feature is anyone's guess until we see TSAB grunts trapped inside an AMF.)

Magically-created matter: By magically-created matter I'm referring to any matter that just seems to be conjured out of nowhere by magical means, presumably through some magical-energy-to-matter conversion process has nothing to do with ol' c. Blood daggers, Vita's 'croquette balls,' the barrier jackets- they all appear to be ordinary matter but they're created by magical processes and imbued with magical power. To apply the above point, it inspire far less cognitive dissonance for me to say that the listed objects are created by putting magical energy into a form that causes it to emulate physical matter and gives it properties useful for offense or defense not dependent on those of the physical matter it emulates than to say that, say, blood daggers are created by doing an e=mc^2 energy-to-mass conversion and then partially reversing it to create the blast, or by using nanites to assemble a miniature missile that just happens to look like a dagger for aesthetics' sake.

In other words, I hate 'magic is just really advanced technology' unless the technology looks plausible to me. That happens in hard sci-fi, but never in anime.

Erio

2007-05-06, 02:29

It's all technobabble really. Another form of fanfiction I practice. Hahaha...

Your theory works fine so I'll just elaborate on the last bit there:

Disclaimer: I watched epi 5 closely using yesy for this one, so I might be getting some details wrong.

What I found was that even when nullified, the BJs still retain some of their defensive function, otherwise the above poster :heh: would've been completely owned and gone home in a squishy body bag from being crushed by the Drone. Instead I think the Gadget gave up and decided to toss him overboard for that uber Caro-boosted comeback.

This might suggest that while the magical component of the BJ has been disabled, the nanites might be still operating on emergency power derived from internally generated energy from the Linker Core since that's what they are always in direct contact with. It's rather limited compared to when running on mana, and so all of it is concentrated on keeping the mage alive, be it life support systems or moderate defences. My analogy is like how GSD Phase Shift armor-equpped mecha works when the power's cut; there's enough for life support and machinegun fire, but a light beam shot would just tear through it. That way, even in the worst circumstances at the very least the mage has a better chance of keeping his ass intact to fight another day.

That was the part I didn't quite agree, but I could be reading too much into the situation...
That makes sense. As for the physical resistance part of the BJ, maybe the nanites by themselves form strong physically resistant molecules. I'm thinking something like mithril armor (see The Lord of the Rings), which is strong as steel but very light in weight.

No wonder I'm still alive, eh? :p

So far this is what I've noted regarding AMFs:

1. They can be nullified by a decoy layer of resistant magic a la Variable Shoot.
2. They can be nullified by another magical enchantment, opening up avenues for a M-jammer Canceller.
3. They seem to have no effect on a person's Linker Core
I think that the AMF itself is an aura enchantment. It emits noises that disrupt the flow of magic within the area of effect (theory of how it may work). The perfect proof to this is the enchantment Caro casted on Erio's weapon, "Enchanter Field Invalid" (your point #2). That means a complete opposite enchantment (the AMF) could be casted as well.

As for magic circle color, I guess its something in-born, like one's fingerprints, that affects the frequency of mana (I'm assuming its a unique form of EM here) output from one's Linker Core.
Brilliant. I thought of the frequency part, but I didnt know how to put that idea into words.

The only one that changes her magic circle color is Reinforce I, but she is technically a device, so she could change her frequency of mana as she pleases.

Kha

2007-05-06, 02:34

It's not a form of energy as we understand it. Certainly not the way people think of 'energy' in terms of EM radiation. For one thing, it responds to human will.

I'm going out on what I see as a terribly short, unoriginal limb and sticking with the idea that 'magic' has its own rules. I find the entire idea that any of this stuff makes any sense purely in terms of our physical laws, that it's all just very advanced technology, to be preposterous. Magical law is separate from what we'd call physical law- if you define physical law to include magical law (since, after all, if they have rules for interacting with each other they're really just part of the same system), then it is not the physical law we know.

By magically-created matter I'm referring to any matter that just seems to be conjured out of nowhere by magical means, presumably through some magical-energy-to-matter conversion process has nothing to do with ol' c. Blood daggers, Vita's 'croquette balls,' the barrier jackets- they all appear to be ordinary matter but they're created by magical processes and imbued with magical power. To apply the above point, it inspire far less cognitive dissonance for me to say that the listed objects are created by putting magical energy into a form that causes it to emulate physical matter and gives it properties useful for offense or defense not dependent on those of the physical matter it emulates than to say that blood daggers are created by doing an e=mc^2 energy-to-mass conversion and then partially reversing it to create the blast, or by using nanites to assemble a miniature missile that just happens to look like a dagger for aesthetics' sake.

In other words, I hate 'magic is just really advanced technology' unless the technology looks plausible to me. That happens in hard sci-fi, but never in anime.

I'm coming from the standpoint of something in between, that both magic and physics have different laws, but some of them can be applied to both world to a limited extent, and it is through those links that technology can come in and bridge it. I'm thinking of scientifically-supported magic, Full Metamagic (Full Meta), which is more precise, faster, efficient and brutally powerful than oldtype magic, Coarse Metamagic. CM has the developmental advantage against FM, from being around much longer, as well as the ability to use the elements themselves like a weapon instead of just the one most affiliated to one's Linker Core.

But I do admit, I'm making assumptions and technobabble a plenty even while trying to be as plausible and canonically accurate as possible. It's a twisted form of fanfiction for my own fun. :P

That makes sense. As for the physical resistance part of the BJ, maybe the nanites by themselves form strong physically resistant molecules. I'm thinking something like mithril armor (see The Lord of the Rings), which is strong as steel but very light in weight.

No wonder I'm still alive, eh? :p

Half correct. You see, chainmail, even made of mithril, absorbs impact by distributing it throughout the piece of armor while resisting being penetrated, keeping your skin intact. Strong fabrics derived from spidersilk supposedly can do that better than kevlar for much less, and BJ definitely have that aspect in it to counter point impacts like projectiles. But to counter a round-the-body crushing force (like being Anaconda'd by a tentacle), the material has to be hard enough to uniformly resist the crush outwards like a nutshell. That requires it to be as hard as platemail, but you don't see the mages moving about like mecha. Therefore I mentioned BJs being made of smart material, and the implication is that it is able to harden to a certain limit when necessary to avoid being crushed, and yet change back to soft cottony material when the pressure is relieved.

Kikaifan

2007-05-06, 02:38

Apologies, I didn't realize I was last post on the page and thought nobody else had posted yet. I edited that sucker about 20 times, specifically added a section on BJ in AMF.

I agree that it's great fun to speculate about, which is why I jumped in on that whole 'BJ as reactive armor' thing, but at the same time I get annoyed sometimes talking about magical energy like it's just another wavelength of EM.

Haha actually your whole 'multiple lightspeeds energy-to-matter' thing got me dragging out my old physics textbooks and 'fabric of the cosmos' trying to figure out the rules for changes in constants.

Erio

2007-05-06, 02:55

Half correct. You see, chainmail, even made of mithril, absorbs impact by distributing it throughout the piece of armor while resisting being penetrated, keeping your skin intact. Strong fabrics derived from spidersilk supposedly can do that better than kevlar for much less, and BJ definitely have that aspect in it to counter point impacts like projectiles. But to counter a round-the-body crushing force (like being Anaconda'd by a tentacle), the material has to be hard enough to uniformly resist the crush outwards like a nutshell. That requires it to be as hard as platemail, but you don't see the mages moving about like mecha. Therefore I mentioned BJs being made of smart material, and the implication is that it is able to harden to a certain limit when necessary to avoid being crushed, and yet change back to soft cottony material when the pressure is relieved.
Actually, I understand how that works. That it protects against piercing and slashing attacks, but not crushing ones. My line, "No wonder I'm still alive, eh?," was just a joke. I didnt go through explaining how mithril protects the wearer, as I'm sure everyone knows that already. :heh: Sorry for the confusion.

As for the part where you say the BJ is able to harden when necessary... Hmm... I kinda doubt it, though it is possible. I think the drone grabbed Erio just to throw him out of the train, not to crush him. We need more battle data from future episodes to confirm these theories.

Kikaifan

2007-05-06, 03:03

Kha

2007-05-06, 03:11

Magical energy as 'real' energy- It's not a form of energy as we understand it. Certainly not the way people think of 'energy' in terms of EM radiation. For one thing, it responds to human will.

Barrier jackets in AMF- in StrikerS manga it was stated that a mage in an AMF will lose basic defenses, and the characters generally acted like AMF had absolute effect out to a certain range and none outside that. However, in the StrikerS anime they act more like AMF has a limited effect that decreases in power with distance like a 'real' field. In anime context the survival of the barrier jacket can be explained by barrier jackets incorporating a permanent form of the spell-protection/barrier-inversion techs used by Tiana and Carol against AMF (if barrier jackets' relative permanence and long set-up time allows the incorporation of relatively complex effects it would go a long way towards providing an in-setting explanation why there seems to be such a bias towards defense and character durability in Nanohaverse, though whether AMF-resistance is a standard feature is anyone's guess until we see TSAB grunts trapped inside an AMF.)

In other words, I hate 'magic is just really advanced technology' unless the technology looks plausible to me. That happens in hard sci-fi, but never in anime.

I'll cover the points missed then. I defined what mana was in the General Discussion thread and I'll post it here once I polish it up. As a summary, we have concluded that it works definitely from normal energy, and the most obvious point is that it tends towards orderly structures instead of disordered ones ruled by the General Law of Entropy. This was derived from the spontaneous genesis of ordered beings like Elementals and possibly even a transcendial being. The wider implications of this is that some physical laws may work, some fall through and others are turned on their heads. We only decide what still works like we know it does and what goes topsy according to canon, but that doesn't stop us from interpretting from the frame of reference we are most familiar with, and that introduces some room for error, and thank you for pointing them out! This thread is for ironing them out.

I see what you mean about the BJs. It's perfectly valid too, after Caro threw that boost into the works. Cool, 2 ways to look at it.

Haha actually your whole 'multiple lightspeeds energy-to-matter' thing got me dragging out my old physics textbooks and 'fabric of the cosmos' trying to figure out the rules for changes in constants.

There aren't, not in the physical world, where constants really are constants. It's in the quantum mess of voidspace that constant states vary, and that's why nothing exists there, for in absolute chaos there cannot be any order, unless there's something that can resist it, like the protection of timeship hulls and barrier jackets. Regrettably, I only have a guess of how those worked; If I knew exactly I'd be building my own ship and conquering one dimension to retire in myself! :heh:

Yeah definitely that. I made a rather tongue in cheek comment of how her BJ also kept her skin smooth from whipping and crashing through concrete, and that's from a setup that favors speed over defence... Whatever hurt Nanoha must've been of a really big force...

Erio

2007-05-06, 03:13

Materials don't have to be all that 'smart' to reduce elasticity when subjected to large force- we already have a few in testing IIRC. I'm sure barrier jackets have the capability.

For one thing it'd explain how Fate survived getting hammered through all that reinforced concrete by Signum.
Well, at least in Fate's case there was no AMF, so her BJ was at its full power. (This is assuming the BJ loses some of its protective properties inside an AMF)

Darco_emp

2007-05-06, 03:19

With regards to Anti Magic Field (AMF)

Declarations the following assumption:
Magical energy is or at least has some properties which are similar to energy that exists in the physical world, and dual properties holds true.

Now we have a look at the available theories

Magic and AMF as waveforms

This is the model which I purposed, which considers magical energy as a sine wave, A*sin(wt + ∅), ∅ = 0. As well as the possible conversion from wave to particle, thus resulting “physical damage” as opposed to pure magical damage.

With that as bases, AMF’s region of operation at 100% efficiency will be
B*sin(wt - 180), A = B. When the two waveforms superposition on each other, gives the resultant waveform r(t) = 0. Effectively cancels out the magic energy.

Now we bring that to a real world system, since there is energy loss at the rate of 1/(d^2), then the field which is modeled by a sine wave can be modeled as a B*sinx/x^2 function. As it is demonstrated when you move away from the centre of AMF there is an exponential decay in the effectiveness of AMF. The decoy layer which nullify the AMF can be considered in mathematics as (A*sin(wt)+ C*sin(wt)) + B*sin(wt - 180), The AMF burns away the decoy layer and leaves the Magical bullet untouched.

With regards to AMF nullified by another magical enchantment, it can be explained as the “enchanter field invalid” works by varying the phase ∅ of the user’s magical energy. For example at ∅ = 90. We get a waveform that has ~ equal energy with the original wave under AMF, when we superposition them.

So far I have not yet been able to find why linker core is unaffected unless the condensed energy in the linker cores is far greater then AMF is able to effect, approximated it to 0.

------------------------

Now, the point brought up by Erio is most interesing I'm write it up when I thinked it through. Frequency associated with colour due to each user is petty much established, so maybe its time for Kha to summarise it too :heh:

Kha

2007-05-06, 03:26

The Thread! It's Alive! ALIVE!!!

With regards to Anti Magic Field (AMF)

Declarations the following assumption:
Magical energy is or at least has some properties which are similar to energy that exists in the physical world, and dual properties holds true.

Now we have a look at the available theories

Magic and AMF as waveforms

This is the model which I purposed, which considers magical energy as a sine wave, A*sin(wt + ∅), ∅ = 0. As well as the possible conversion from wave to particle, thus resulting “physical damage” as opposed to pure magical damage.

With that as bases, AMF’s region of operation at 100% efficiency will be
B*sin(wt - 180), A = B. When the two waveforms superposition on each other, gives the resultant waveform r(t) = 0. Effectively cancels out the magic energy.

Now we bring that to a real world system, since there is energy loss at the rate of 1/(d^2), then the field which is modeled by a sine wave can be modeled as a B*sinx/x^2 function. As it is demonstrated when you move away from the centre of AMF there is an exponential decay in the effectiveness of AMF. The decoy layer which nullify the AMF can be considered in mathematics as (A*sin(wt)+ C*sin(wt)) + B*sin(wt - 180), The AMF burns away the decoy layer and leaves the Magical bullet untouched.

With regards to AMF nullified by another magical enchantment, it can be explained as the “enchanter field invalid” works by varying the phase ∅ of the user’s magical energy. For example at ∅ = 90. We get a waveform that has ~ equal energy with the original wave under AMF, when we superposition them.

So far I have not yet been able to find why linker core is unaffected unless the condensed energy in the linker cores is far greater then AMF is able to effect, approximated it to 0.

Now, the point brought up by Erio is most interesing I'm write it up when I thinked it through.

*applause*

I didn't understand any of the math. Did anyone else get it? :heh:

Okay but using whatever I learned of wave superposition, I take it that you mean EFI invalidates the AMF by introducing a wave in complete anti-phase of the AMF disruption field, creating a net resultant of 0 displacement in some aspect of mana that fluctuates?

Either way I'm sooooo gonna hand this discussion to Chario for her to build that M-jammer Canceller. Neat stuff this is. Let's hope Strike Friedich, Infinite Strada and Subaigar pack this in their endgame.

Darco_emp

2007-05-06, 03:31

The Thread! It's Alive! ALIVE!!!

*applause*

I didn't understand any of the math. Did anyone else get it? :heh:

Okay but using whatever I learned of wave superposition, I take it that you mean EFI invalidates the AMF by introducing a wave in complete anti-phase of the AMF disruption field, creating a net resultant of 0 displacement in some aspect of mana that fluctuates?

Either way I'm sooooo gonna hand this discussion to Chario for her to build that M-jammer Canceller. Neat stuff this is. Let's hope Strike Friedich, Infinite Strada and Subaigar pack this in their endgame.

Just draw sin(x-pi)+sin(x-pi/2) in a calculator, and consider sin(x-pi) as AMF, and sin(x-pi/2) as enchanter field modified magic attack. with sin(x) as the original magic attack.
and don't blame me on the math, I used the most basic ones to show my point. since the real life systems is much better modeled via sinc function

Keroko

2007-05-06, 03:33

But what if AMF doesn’t dispel all magic, but simply the refined energy? That would explain why Linker Cores are unaffected.

Magic exists in two forms, the raw energy, or mana, and the refined energy that makes up a barrier, magic blast, or empowered weapon. What an AMF does in not make this energy disappear, but rather ‘unweaves’ the elements that held the spell together, reducing the spell to the energy it came from. Just like vibrations can shatter a rock, reducing it to nothing more then sand and dust, and AMF would ‘vibrate’ the spell apart. Since Linker Cores are the energy they would be reduced to, they would naturally remain unaffected.

This would also explain how a shielded magical blast can get through an AMF, since the AMF has to unweave two spells instead of one, the blast can get through before the shield is fully destroyed.

As to barrier jackets, since they are either solidified magic or empowered Nano-machines (depending on your point of view) they are like reinforced concrete. Normal concrete will collapse far easier then reinforced concrete. The amount of power needed to 'unweave' a barrier jacket or Intelligent Device would far exceed that necissary to unweave an offensive spell.

Kha

2007-05-06, 03:51

Just draw sin(x-pi)+sin(x-pi/2) in a calculator, and consider sin(x-pi) as AMF, and sin(x-pi/2) as enchanter field modified magic attack. with sin(x) as the original magic attack.
and don't blame me on the math, I used the most basic ones to show my point. since the real life systems is much better modeled via sinc function

:heh: Ok time to get a better calc. I hope when I do get round to Linker Core genesis and the Claudia cycle (biologically derived magical processes) this doesn't happen to anyone.

But what if AMF doesn’t dispel all magic, but simply the refined energy? That would explain why Linker Cores are unaffected.

Magic exists in two forms, the raw energy, or mana, and the refined energy that makes up a barrier, magic blast, or empowered weapon. What an AMF does in not make this energy disappear, but rather ‘unweaves’ the elements that held the spell together, reducing the spell to the energy it came from. Just like vibrations can shatter a rock, reducing it to nothing more then sand and dust, and AMF would ‘vibrate’ the spell apart. Since Linker Cores are the energy they would be reduced to, they would naturally remain unaffected.

This would also explain how a shielded magical blast can get through an AMF, since the AMF has to unweave two spells instead of one, the blast can get through before the shield is fully destroyed.

As to barrier jackets, since they are either solidified magic or empowered Nano-machines (depending on your point of view) they are like reinforced concrete. Normal concrete will collapse far easier then reinforced concrete. The amount of power needed to 'unweave' a barrier jacket or Intelligent Device would far exceed that necissary to unweave an offensive spell.

Ah I see. I hope got it right here... Disordered magical derivatives like Linker Core cannot be further disrupted becuase they are already in a mess, while ordered ones are subjected to the AMF frequency which is of their natural frequency and thus resonate to dissonance. BJs stay intact because of better damping of the magically derived structures. The catch 22 here is that the AMF has to broadcast a wide spectrum of superimposed waves of different frequencies to catch all the different natural frequencies of different magic colors. I hope this it correct...

Scribbled on post-it stuck to above documents:

Due to differing hypothesis of AMF operation, TSAB has yet to come up with a proper countermeasure. More research is required.

Lt. Kha Alexei T.
Head Medic, Bio-Sorcerology
HMSS Silvana
For TSAB FutureTech Laboratories

Darco_emp

2007-05-06, 04:00

Ah I see. I hope got it right here... Disordered magical derivatives like Linker Core cannot be further disrupted becuase they are already in a mess, while ordered ones are subjected to the AMF frequency which is of their natural frequency and thus resonate to dissonance. BJs stay intact because of better damping of the magically derived structures. The catch 22 here is that the AMF has to broadcast a wide spectrum of superimposed waves of different frequencies to catch all the different natural frequencies of different magic colors. I hope this it correct...

Scribbled on post-it stuck to above documents:

Due to differing hypothesis of AMF operation, TSAB has yet to come up with a proper countermeasure. More research is required.

Lt. Kha Alexei T.
Head Medic, Bio-Sorcerology
HMSS Silvana
For TSAB FutureTech Laboratories

Noise, Kha, you forgot noise, While I like to think AMF as a simple superposition problem, what Erio and Keroko suggested can be and is very easily archived through noise too. Then things like EFI will become an envelope and a low-pass filter, and mean while blasting through with raw power still works here too. The theory here is a bit horrid though....

Keroko

2007-05-06, 04:04

Ah I see. I hope got it right here... Disordered magical derivatives like Linker Core cannot be further disrupted becuase they are already in a mess, while ordered ones are subjected to the AMF frequency which is of their natural frequency and thus resonate to dissonance. BJs stay intact because of better damping of the magically derived structures. The catch 22 here is that the AMF has to broadcast a wide spectrum of superimposed waves of different frequencies to catch all the different natural frequencies of different magic colors. I hope this it correct...

Not quite what I had in mind, but another plausible theory nonetheless.

For my example, try imagining a spell as ice, and a Linker Core as water. You can melt the ice, turning it into water, but you can't melt water into water, because it already is water.

Noise, Kha, you forgot noise, While I like to think AMF as a simple superposition problem, what Erio and Keroko suggested can be and is very easily archived through noise too. Then things like EFI will become an envelope and a low-pass filter, and mean while blasting through with raw power still works here too. The theory here is a bit horrid though....

Vibration through noise or energy. If you notice, whenever a drone boots up his AMF, the field has this wave effect, almost as if its sending constant waves of energy. Hence the vibration theory.

Kha

2007-05-06, 04:08

Noise, Kha, you forgot noise, While I like to think AMF as a simple superposition problem, what Erio and Keroko suggested can be and is very easily archived through noise too. Then things like EFI will become an envelope and a low-pass filter, and mean while blasting through with raw power still works here too. The theory here is a bit horrid though....

Alright summarizing editing summarizing...

Darco_emp

2007-05-06, 04:39

Vibration through noise or energy. If you notice, whenever a drone boots up his AMF, the field has this wave effect, almost as if its sending constant waves of energy. Hence the vibration theory.

I would not consider it as vibration of particles, from a physics point of view, rather then waves. since local vibration in such manner will not interfere with the global structure of a spell.

Now the noise I'm considering is white noise which will muck the decision region of an which samples with a Gausian random noise process.

Alright summarizing editing summarizing...

If you are going to cite people use Harvard style only in a medical context use Vancouver style is standard :p

Woden

2007-05-06, 04:51

Wouldn't the spell continue forward while in the "noise" AMF field until it is completely sapped?

*Only has 9th grade physics to go by*

Darco_emp

2007-05-06, 05:05

Wouldn't the spell continue forward while in the "noise" AMF field until it is completely sapped?

*Only has 9th physics to go by*

In an analog communications context, yes it will, the structure of the spell will detereate until it has fall apart. However if the mathematical protocals which a spell is been set up as, is send in the manner I expect it to be in - akin to digital, since the samping occurs at a discrete intervals then the spell could in theory be unrecognizable at the next sampling time, thus effectively cancel it.

Just note that with noise the spell cast is still there but it is removed from the equation due to the changes that the original spell undergo.

Woden

2007-05-06, 06:09

In an analog communications context, yes it will, the structure of the spell will detereate until it has fall apart. However if the mathematical protocals which a spell is been set up as, is send in the manner I expect it to be in - akin to digital, since the samping occurs at a discrete intervals then the spell could in theory be unrecognizable at the next sampling time, thus effectively cancel it.

Just note that with noise the spell cast is still there but it is removed from the equation due to the changes that the original spell undergo.

Yet we see the AMF holding various magical attacks at a certain distance while the spell withers. As the attack in episode 3 (Variable Shoot, I believe) doesn't just disappear, shouldn't we should be able to perceive the continued motion of the attack?

Nightengale

2007-05-06, 06:10

It also variantly in a sense, should depend on the particular output of the released magical energy in the form of waves, because if that is similarly in the case, shouldn't differing frequencies allow the AMF to be bypassed in the form of shifting waves in it's own variants with the sound flux and stimulus response on how the AMF detects the release of magical energy?

Eek. It's so hard to try and remember those physics stuff they teach in university/school, especially when I haet them so much.

You know, talking about Linker Cores, it makes one wonder on the particular singularity and frequency of mages, possibly even hereditary traits passed on from their magical circuits that run in the blood. Fate's magical talent from Precia alongside the masterful capability of elemental thunder conversion is one example, but what perplexes me for one is Yuuno's apparently unique construction where in a state where he clearly didn't use any magic at all, he self-transformed into a ferret not of his own will, which means that there's a possibility that his Linker Core magical construction bypasses any magical use of energy when using shapeshifting, and allows him to shapeshift without the use of any magical energy, unlike the Lieze twins which obviously needed the use of magic constantly that broke off upon magical binding.

Woden

2007-05-06, 06:14

Perhaps that has to do with the Lieze twins being familiars as opposed to just being a person. I seriously doubt that the Nanoha world uses the same concepts for magical inheritance as the Nasu-verse.

Darco_emp

2007-05-06, 06:37

Yet we see the AMF holding various magical attacks at a certain distance while the spell withers. As the attack in episode 3 (Variable Shoot, I believe) doesn't just disappear, shouldn't we should be able to perceive the continued motion of the attack?

Yes that is one of the problem with this theory, that is why I really need to think this through, give me time and I'll present it with all the math attached :heh:....

It also variantly in a sense, should depend on the particular output of the released magical energy in the form of waves, because if that is similarly in the case, shouldn't differing frequencies allow the AMF to be bypassed in the form of shifting waves in it's own variants with the sound flux and stimulus response on how the AMF detects the release of magical energy?

Eek. It's so hard to try and remember those physics stuff they teach in university/school, especially when I haet them so much.

You know, talking about Linker Cores, it makes one wonder on the particular singularity and frequency of mages, possibly even hereditary traits passed on from their magical circuits that run in the blood. Fate's magical talent from Precia alongside the masterful capability of elemental thunder conversion is one example, but what perplexes me for one is Yuuno's apparently unique construction where in a state where he clearly didn't use any magic at all, he self-transformed into a ferret not of his own will, which means that there's a possibility that his Linker Core magical construction bypasses any magical use of energy when using shapeshifting, and allows him to shapeshift without the use of any magical energy, unlike the Lieze twins which obviously needed the use of magic constantly that broke off upon magical binding.

It is true that shifting frequency will also be able to by-pass the AMF, however when there is a frequency shift in the fourier domain the transformed waveform will become distorted. Then the bases of the spell will change wouldn't it. That why I throught it as a phase shift instead, which does not distort the image in the fourier domain after transformations.

Now with Yunno's shapeshifting is perhapes a trait shared by his tribe, but it does appear to use magical energy, since he did use a magical circle to shift back to human form later in season one. I would just think his inital change to ferret at the start of season 1, is maybe forced power saving mode on low battery, like on labtops. Yunno's shapeshifting is a change of body structures while Lieze's was an illusion wasn't it.... btw I hate shapeshifting since it does not obey proper physics :heh:

Erio

2007-05-06, 15:31

The Thread! It's Alive! ALIVE!!!
And I blame you, Kha, for creating this monster! :p

But what if AMF doesn’t dispel all magic, but simply the refined energy? That would explain why Linker Cores are unaffected.

Magic exists in two forms, the raw energy, or mana, and the refined energy that makes up a barrier, magic blast, or empowered weapon. What an AMF does in not make this energy disappear, but rather ‘unweaves’ the elements that held the spell together, reducing the spell to the energy it came from. Just like vibrations can shatter a rock, reducing it to nothing more then sand and dust, and AMF would ‘vibrate’ the spell apart. Since Linker Cores are the energy they would be reduced to, they would naturally remain unaffected.
Yes, this is where our theory that AMF emits 'waves' that disrupt magical spells is going. I think AMF should actually be "Anti-Magic-Spell-Field." As you say, raw magic does not disappear, only the spells, which are disrupted.

I'm thinking in Hunter X Hunter terms now...
(For those who have not watched HxH, go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nen))

Transformation (Transmutation): Used to change the properties of nen (raw magic). This is how elemental spells are produced (Fate's Lightning and Signum's Fire). But also, as Keroko says, the raw magic has to be transformed to be used as fuel for spells (even for non-elemental Divine Buster). The AMF 'waves' disrupt the transformed raw magic.
- Transformation is required for all mages.
- Characters who excel in this category: Hayate, Fate, Signum, Reinforce II
- Maybe Erio. Not sure.

Emission: Used to discharge the accumulated and transformed magic (Divine Buster, Starlight Breaker, Plasma Smasher, and all those long range spells).
- Subaru is bad in this category, as an example, while Nanoha is an expert.
- Characters who excel in this category: Nanoha, Teana, Chrono

Manipulation: In HxH it is used to control people or non-living materials, but here in Nanoha-verse it would be used to control certain spells (Accel Shooter, Plasma Lancer, Variable Shoot and almost all of Teana's spells).
- Apparently Teana is an expert in this category.
- Characters who excel: Nanoha, Teana, Chrono

Reinforcement (Enhancement): Used to increase efficiency of objects or body. All defensive (Barrier, Field, and Shield types. See Nanoha A's Comics) and healing magics belong to this category, as well as Caro's enchantments, Vita's Hammer attacks (Raketenhammer, Gigantschlag), and Signum's Knight Armour (or Knight Spirit, a Field-type magic defense. See A's episode 2). Since Field is a type of magic defense, AMF is also part of this category.
- Characters who excel: Vita, Signum, Shamal, Caro, Yuuno, Arf, Zafira
- Not sure about Subaru, but I think she belongs to this category too.

As to barrier jackets, since they are either solidified magic or empowered Nano-machines (depending on your point of view) they are like reinforced concrete. Normal concrete will collapse far easier then reinforced concrete. The amount of power needed to 'unweave' a barrier jacket or Intelligent Device would far exceed that necissary to unweave an offensive spell.
I would probably put Barrier Jackets in this category:

Materialization (Conjuration): Used to create physical objects out of raw magic (Vita's Schwalbe fliegen). Materialization users in HxH can create items with special abilities imbued into them. For Barrier Jackets, these special abilities would be Barrier, and/or Shield magic defenses.
- Characters who excel: None, as the Intelligent and Armed Devices take care of the materialization process.

And the last category:

Specialization: Anything that doesnt belong to the other categories. Hayate's status effect spells come to mind.
- Character who excel: Hayate, Reinforce II, and specially Reinforce I (Ability to use all categories with 100% efficiency, anyone? :naughty:)

----
Oh, I love HxH's Nen. And after writing this post, HxH's 'energy system' sure makes sense, even when applied to Nanoha-verse. :heh:

BTW, I have no clue what categories Subaru and Erio excel in. I would assume Erio eventually would be good with Lightning attacks, but there is not enough info right now.

I hope you enjoyed this comparison as much as me. :p

Keroko

2007-05-06, 15:47

BTW, I have no clue what categories Subaru and Erio excel in. I would assume Erio eventually would be good with Lightning attacks, but there is not enough info right now.

Are you kidding? Subaru is a 100% reinforcement type. Hell, she even has the simple-minded personallity for it.

Erio

2007-05-06, 15:55

Are you kidding? Subaru is a 100% reinforcement type. Hell, she even has the simple-minded personallity for it.
Hehe yes. I dont know why I'm doubting. Maybe its because of the Revolver Knuckle. To hit harder it uses some kind of mechanical propulsion system, instead of a spell. Well, maybe it is a spell, as it uses cartridges... Hmm. Ah, I give up. Yes, Subaru is Reinforcement, if only because she doesnt fit anywhere else. :heh:

BatAttack

2007-05-06, 22:58

btw I hate shapeshifting since it does not obey proper physics :heh:

That's why its called magic.. :rolleyes:
I'm really not sure why everyone keeps trying to marry magic with physics..
It's been said before, but if it followed physical laws, it wouldn't be magic.

The Lieze twins were using illusion/disguise magic, which was disrupted by Chrono's bind - I recall he said it is a specifc type of bind that causes the trapped target to return to their true form? Or breaks any enchantments they have on them?

So if the Lieze twins were using an active or passive spell, it was disrupted.

Yuuno however seems to have two seperate forms, both of which can be considered his 'true' forms. I guess switching from one to the other requires almost no magic, or perhaps that only works downwards, from human form to ferret form, since one is a low-magic-cost form.

Linker Cores might emit magical energy - any magic they emit inside an AMF is probably disrupted/dissolved as per the usual AMF effect, but the generator itself seems unaffected. So Linker Cores are not in any danger while inside an AMF, they just can't produce any focussed magical output..

I'm not really not comfortable with the idea of nanomachines for the BJ.
That just makes me have bad Mai-Otome flashbacks.

When the BJs form, the effect looks more like the magically constructed matter effect that someone else described.. pure, patterned magical energy of some sort instantly forms into what appears to be fabric. Nanomachines would have a visibly granular appearance to their formation (as in, say, Cutey Honey :heh: ), as trillions of molecular level machines moved into position.

Also, the protection of BJs is clearly more than their fabric - characters have exposed faces yet survive full beam and explosion exposure. BJs are not just worn armour, in the physical sense. They probably emit fields of their own.
The way the protect from 'crushing' damage is possibly similar to Yuuno's magical mattress from ep4 season1.

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 00:46

Way I read Kha's model though, the nanomachines are just there to aid magic-to-matter conversion and help form the material. It's not actually made out of nanomachines.

Mai Otome hardly invented nanomachines. You can't let one crappy anime taint one of the most abused concepts in sci-fi... wait... I guess that should be 'there are so many crappy narrative uses of nanomachines on record that Mai Otome's contribution hardly matters.'

Although since I like Eve's nanotech-shapeshifting power from Black Cat I guess I'm pretty guilty myself.

Erio

2007-05-07, 01:22

Linker Cores might emit magical energy - any magic they emit inside an AMF is probably disrupted/dissolved as per the usual AMF effect, but the generator itself seems unaffected. So Linker Cores are not in any danger while inside an AMF, they just can't produce any focussed magical output..
I still think the way Keroko and I view it makes more sense. The raw magic emitted from the Linker Cores by itself does not do anything. It has to be transformed or refined so that mages can use them to cast spells.

This is how I see it: Every living thing has a Linker Core, no matter if you're a mage or not (this was said in A's). The Linker Core is like your heart: If the energy emitted by the LC stops flowing, you will die. It is like your life force. This explains why Nanoha was very weak after Shamal drained most of her LC. If the AMF disrupts the flow of this energy, any living thing inside the Field would start losing stamina, then its consciousness, and eventually it would die.

But the fact that you have a Linker Core and have magical aptitudes (like Nanoha before she met Yuuno) does not mean you can cast spells. This is where Intelligent Devices come in: to help mages use that raw magic, or if we use our theory's terms, to help mages transform that raw magic so it would be usable for casting spells.

With this in mind, and the fact that Erio's and Caro's health or stamina were not affected while inside the AMF, we came with the theory that the AMF does not disrupt the flow of raw magic (that which is emitted from LCs) but instead disrupts the transformed raw magic used to cast spells. This is why we saw that Strada's enchantment was nullified, but nothing happened to Erio himself. This is why I believe that the AMF is actually a "Anti Magic-spell Field."

Also, what I tried to explain with use of Hunter X Hunter terminology is that the AMF is but an enchantment, a Field-type magic defense (as explained in A's to Strikers Comics), not some hax. Caro proved this by using the "Enchanter field invalid" (the word "Enchanter" in the spells name should be enough clue :heh:) enchantment on Erio's weapon to counter the AMF. In other words, the AMF has to have its limits, or it would be completely unstoppable.

I hope that makes sense. :p

USB500

2007-05-07, 01:38

I still think the way Keroko and I view it makes more sense. The raw magic emitted from the Linker Cores by itself does not do anything. It has to be transformed or refined so that mages can use them to cast spells.

This is how I see it: Every living thing has a Linker Core, no matter if you're a mage or not (this was said in A's). The Linker Core is like your heart: If the energy emitted by the LC stops flowing, you will die. It is like your life force. This explains why Nanoha was very weak after Shamal drained most of her LC. If the AMF disrupts the flow of this energy, any living thing inside the Field would start losing stamina, then its consciousness, and eventually it would die.

But the fact that you have a Linker Core and have magical aptitudes (like Nanoha before she met Yuuno) does not mean you can cast spells. This is where Intelligent Devices come in: to help mages use that raw magic, or if we use our theory's terms, to help mages transform that raw magic so it would be usable for casting spells.

With this in mind, and the fact that Erio's and Caro's health or stamina were not affected while inside the AMF, we came with the theory that the AMF does not disrupt the flow of raw magic (that which is emitted from LCs) but instead disrupts the transformed raw magic used to cast spells. This is why we saw that Strada's enchantment was nullified, but nothing happened to Erio himself. This is why I believe that the AMF is actually a "Anti Magic-spell Field."

Also, what I tried to explain with use of Hunter X Hunter terminology is that the AMF is but an enchantment, a Field-type magic defense (as explained in A's to Strikers Comics), not some hax. Caro proved this by using the "Enchanter field invalid" (the word "Enchanter" in the spells name should be enough clue :heh:) enchantment on Erio's weapon to counter the AMF. In other words, the AMF has to have its limits, or it would be completely unstoppable.

I hope that makes sense. :p

That does make sense to me. I've been thinking of how the terminology in Nanoha Universe would work. Your post has proven to be very useful. =3

Darco_emp

2007-05-07, 01:40

I still think the way Keroko and I view it makes more sense. The raw magic emitted from the Linker Cores by itself does not do anything. It has to be transformed or refined so that mages can use them to cast spells.

This is how I see it: Every living thing has a Linker Core, no matter if you're a mage or not (this was said in A's). The Linker Core is like your heart: If the energy emitted by the LC stops flowing, you will die. It is like your life force. This explains why Nanoha was very weak after Shamal drained most of her LC. If the AMF disrupts the flow of this energy, any living thing inside the Field would start losing stamina, then its consciousness, and eventually it would die.

But the fact that you have a Linker Core and have magical aptitudes (like Nanoha before she met Yuuno) does not mean you can cast spells. This is where Intelligent Devices come in: to help mages use that raw magic, or if we use our theory's terms, to help mages transform that raw magic so it would be usable for casting spells.

With this in mind, and the fact that Erio's and Caro's health or stamina were not affected while inside the AMF, we came with the theory that the AMF does not disrupt the flow of raw magic (that which is emitted from LCs) but instead disrupts the transformed raw magic used to cast spells. This is why we saw that Strada's enchantment was nullified, but nothing happened to Erio himself. This is why I believe that the AMF is actually a "Anti Magic-spell Field."

Also, what I tried to explain with use of Hunter X Hunter terminology is that the AMF is but an enchantment, a Field-type magic defense (as explained in A's to Strikers Comics), not some hax. Caro proved this by using the "Enchanter field invalid" (the word "Enchanter" in the spells name should be enough clue :heh:) enchantment on Erio's weapon to counter the AMF. In other words, the AMF has to have its limits, or it would be completely unstoppable.

I hope that makes sense. :p

But do notice that a mages does not require the use of ID to cast spells.

Hmm but if we consider the Linker Core as completly chaotic and random, a good model for this can be white noise again, which is just y(t)=A for -∞<t<∞, where A is constant, the amount if raw power a mage have.

Now, since under superposition again in AMF we can get r(t) = A +B*sin(wt-180), where AMF is modeled with B*sin(wt-180). We can see with this model then AMF will not effect the overall power of linker core at all, unlike in an organised spell A*sin(wt-180).

-----------------------

@BatAttack, Since in Nanoha they did say Magic is similar to math models used on Earth, I do belive there is proper physics/math model for all magic then.

Nightengale

2007-05-07, 01:46

Yes, mages don't need devices to cast spells, as shown by Yuuno and Lindy.

However, when you consider how a finely-tuned specialized I.D is so much better than regular Storage Devices, which are apparently easier than manual-non device magic, well...one can see why there aren't too many "non-devicers."

That's why I think the personal scientific calculator => regular calculator => mental arithmetics argument work best in terms of looking at how Devices help channel the magical energy as a medium.

BatAttack

2007-05-07, 01:55

@BatAttack, Since in Nanoha they did say Magic is similar to math models used on Earth, I do belive there is proper physics/math model for all magic then.

Not necessarily; as someone else suggested it might be that the math is used for correcly forming the magic sygils that are required to manifest the spell. The runic inscriptions have to be just so or the spell will fail (or misfire etc.)

Every living thing has a Linker Core, no matter if you're a mage or not (this was said in A's). The Linker Core is like your heart: If the energy emitted by the LC stops flowing, you will die. It is like your life force. This explains why Nanoha was very weak after Shamal drained most of her LC. If the AMF disrupts the flow of this energy, any living thing inside the Field would start losing stamina, then its consciousness, and eventually it would die.

Uh huh, except that I don't recall it ever being stated that an AMF drains your life force. I think any normal person or mage could exist in an AMF and remain unharmed indefinitely. Its just that they can't use magic effectively because it becomes defocussed to the point of uselessness.

Hence my comment about the linker core itself being unaffected, only emitted magical energy being defocussed.

Keroko

2007-05-07, 02:59

But do notice that a mages does not require the use of ID to cast spells.

You can throw a rock, and it's called a projectile, but is it as effective as shooting a gun?

Devices strengthen magic, they're not needed, but they strengthen.

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 03:06

@BatAttack, Since in Nanoha they did say Magic is similar to math models used on Earth, I do belive there is proper physics/math model for all magic then.

The mathematics behind Midchildan magic are either relatively simple or completely different from what we use. I hate to keep parroting myself, but Nanoha can use simple magic without her device and without understanding calculus.

Burner of Anime

2007-05-07, 03:34

Hehe yes. I dont know why I'm doubting. Maybe its because of the Revolver Knuckle. To hit harder it uses some kind of mechanical propulsion system, instead of a spell. Well, maybe it is a spell, as it uses cartridges... Hmm. Ah, I give up. Yes, Subaru is Reinforcement, if only because she doesnt fit anywhere else. :heh:

The thing is, the Subaru's RK doesn't always use cartridges to work. There is probably a default setting for continuous strength [it appears to be linked to Mach Caliber for this] that allows the girl to smack the opposition and throw lots of metal around.

In ep5, the revolver unit served as a power generator for her ranged attack. Notice, she spins it manually before casting the magic missile instead of using a cartridge. Cartridge use IMO have always been to augment an existing attack, that or as a means to sidestep complex incantation.

BatAttack

2007-05-07, 03:43

The mathematics behind Midchildan magic are either relatively simple or completely different from what we use. I hate to keep parroting myself, but Nanoha can use simple magic without her device and without understanding calculus.

I'm inclined to think Raging Heart is helping her out there..

The 'Intelligent' part of the Device should be good for more than just speaking basic commands...

Without Raging Heart, I don't think young Nanoha would have been able to do a lot.
Now that she is older she would probably be able to get by.. but then, she is probably overly-reliant on her I.D. - I wonder if years of I.D. use have made her soft?

Devices strengthen magic, they're not needed, but they strengthen.

Hmmm... I thought rather that they make it easier to cast, as they take over some of the functions. Without a device, a Mage has to do it all themselves, and can't spare the concentration... thus limiting themselves to simpler spells.

That's just my intuitive understanding of it.

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 04:03

I always kind of assumed that when she did that training at the start of A's RH wasn't doing anything for her.

Keroko

2007-05-07, 04:29

I'm inclined to think Raging Heart is helping her out there..

The 'Intelligent' part of the Device should be good for more than just speaking basic commands...

Without Raging Heart, I don't think young Nanoha would have been able to do a lot.
Now that she is older she would probably be able to get by.. but then, she is probably overly-reliant on her I.D. - I wonder if years of I.D. use have made her soft?

That's like saying a tank driver is useless without his tank. Of course he is! But he became a tank driver because he's dangerous when he's in one.

Though Nanoha has been seen practicing magic without RH. Cue first episode of A's

Hmmm... I thought rather that they make it easier to cast, as they take over some of the functions. Without a device, a Mage has to do it all themselves, and can't spare the concentration... thus limiting themselves to simpler spells.

That's just my intuitive understanding of it.

That's what I meant, actually. :heh: Should have worded it better.

I always kind of assumed that when she did that training at the start of A's RH wasn't doing anything for her.

Unless you include keeping count...

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 04:49

Haha, yes, except keeping count. :heh:

I've seen it as unison device > intelligent device > storage device > no device but manifesting a diagram > pure willpower.

With pure willpower apparently the province of pretty much just Yuuno.

And the familiars, but I imagine they've got built-in abilities.

Nightengale

2007-05-07, 04:59

I've seen it as unison device > intelligent device > storage device > no device but manifesting a diagram > pure willpower.

With pure willpower apparently the province of pretty much just Yuuno.

Erm...whut?

What's the difference? Yuuno and Lindy both fall under those categories, anyway.

Kha

2007-05-07, 06:06

I've seen it as unison device > intelligent device > storage device > no device but manifesting a diagram > pure willpower.

I agree with that, but I'd add a clause that "This is true when the strength of the mage's Linker Core is constant."

BatAttack

2007-05-07, 06:06

I always kind of assumed that when she did that training at the start of A's RH wasn't doing anything for her.

Mmmm... I'd agree. And she seems to cast a basic barrier against Vita's homing bullet and hammer attack on her own too..

Though, that is six months later, and she has presumably been practicing.
By this point the math she needs for divine shooter (and any other spell she can manage device-less) could be within her grasp..

We don't know the limit of her intellect, but (1) she is an anime heroine, (2) she is frequently referred to a being academically smart and is a natural at magic (3) all the kids in Nanoha have near adult mental development anyway - if she is practicing the necessary math with Raging Heart everyday, within 6 months she might have graped it - perhaps intuitively rather than formally. It's difficult to say what these mages have to conceptualise to cast their spells..

I imagine telepathic communication and virtual visualisation tools (as per the manga) would make for good teaching aids, too.

@Keroko: I'm not sure about your tank analogy.
A device is an aid to spell casting, while a tank is everything to a tank crew.

After all, even without her 'tank', Nanoha can still cast spells.

And Yuuno has no device, but is far from harmless.

I think Nightengale's calculator analogy is more apt.. she is used to having a lot of the nitty gritty of spell casting off-loaded onto her I.D.

(In the same way that having an address book in my mobile phone has made my memory for phone numbers sloppy - I used to remember them all)

But as people have pointed out, she practices spell casting device-less sometimes, this might be to make sure she does not let those skills deteriorate (which would be what I called 'going soft' from over-reliance on her device).

BatAttack

2007-05-07, 06:08

Erm...whut?

What's the difference? Yuuno and Lindy both fall under those categories, anyway.

I think Kikaifan is saying that Yuuno does not use magic circles (I thought he did) and that Lindy does..

Keroko

2007-05-07, 07:38

I think Kikaifan is saying that Yuuno does not use magic circles (I thought he did) and that Lindy does..

*tilts head* I can't remember a single time where Yuuno was casting spells without a circle either.

Kha

2007-05-07, 07:41

*tilts head* I can't remember a single time where Yuuno was casting spells without a circle either.

His transformation occured without a sigil.

Keroko

2007-05-07, 08:17

His transformation occured without a sigil.

It did? Could've sworn there was a circle then as well. Gotta re-check that when I get back.

BatAttack

2007-05-07, 08:33

His transformation occured without a sigil.

Transformation to ferret? Or back again?

When Arf transformed to wolf form and back to human form, she did not use a circle either (ep 5, season1).

Apparently for multi-formed creatures (like Yuuno and Arf) a circle is not necessary. This probably only applies to their 'true' forms. It seems Arf can change her 'true' form with time (like her chibi forms), but I'm guessing she only has a couple of 'pre-set slots', as it were..

I'm guessing that they would still require a circle for disguise magic.

Meophist

2007-05-07, 09:06

Hrmm… In terms of magic and tech of Nanoha, there's one thing that stood out for me:
Why are the mages unaffected by their own attack magic?

Darco_emp

2007-05-07, 09:15

Hrmm… In terms of magic and tech of Nanoha, there's one thing that stood out for me:
Why are the mages unaffected by their own attack magic?

Hmm, Really care to point me to an example of this? I never really noticed it....

Keroko

2007-05-07, 09:16

They hardly remain unafected. Nanoha already nearly blew herself up when trying to improve her Starlight Breaker.

Meophist

2007-05-07, 09:25

They hardly remain unafected. Nanoha already nearly blew herself up when trying to improve her Starlight Breaker.
Well, that's true. I don't remember when the first time a character was unaffected by their own spell, but there's YnS's attacks. Specifically Starlight Breaker.

Kha

2007-05-07, 09:30

Hrmm… In terms of magic and tech of Nanoha, there's one thing that stood out for me:
Why are the mages unaffected by their own attack magic?

Nanoha almost blew herself up testing out SB+, and it was only thanks to Yuuno that she was in one piece.

I still remember her reply to "are you alive?" - "S-somehow..." It was absolutely golden. Hmm... Ok maybe more like golden brown.

Besides it'll be pretty haxx, if not overtrivializing, if they turned team damage off.

Fate: (caught in swordlock) Dam he's strong...
Nanoha: STARLIGHT BREAKER+
Enemy: What?! She's cra-- (swallowed up)

The blast simmers for a while, then out of a puff in the plume comes Fate

Fate: NANOHA! YOU RUINED MY HAIR!!!
Nanoha: Ah-hahaha... Gome, gome!

:twitch:

Keroko

2007-05-07, 09:31

Well, that's true. I don't remember when the first time a character was unaffected by their own spell, but there's YnS's attacks. Specifically Starlight Breaker.

Yami no Sho was completely unafected by the starlight breaker she shot, as for Nanoha and fate, they were hiding behind cardridge-powered barriers.

Darco_emp

2007-05-07, 09:32

Well, that's true. I don't remember when the first time a character was unaffected by their own spell, but there's YnS's attacks. Specifically Starlight Breaker.

I would not call that uneffected... Nanoha had too burn quite a few cartridges to keep that wild area protection up, also Fate also used a barrier type spell. and a third layer defenser plus is added to Suzuka and Alisa. So I think they are taking that attack very seriously.

If your talking about YnS, isn't she outside of the blast radius since that SLB was fired at a ~60degree angle

Meophist

2007-05-07, 09:40

If your talking about YnS, isn't she outside of the blast radius since that SLB was fired at a ~60degree angleWas it? Did it just expand from where she fired it? Engulfing basically everything?

Keroko

2007-05-07, 09:42

Was it? Did it just expand from where she fired it? Engulfing basically everything?

Everything bellow her, yes. It only started expanding after it hit the ground.

Meophist

2007-05-07, 09:47

I must be remembering things wrong, I haven't watched A's in a while.

How about that black spherical attack?

Darco_emp

2007-05-07, 09:57

I must be remembering things wrong, I haven't watched A's in a while.

How about that black spherical attack?

Perhaps the places she is at is like eye of a cyclone. If we can a spherical field around YnS as the center of that attack then it should not effect her then. Or perhaps in the "coding" of her code she add an exception statement of sorts.

There are many ways to expain why an attack seems not to effect their user.

Keroko

2007-05-07, 09:57

Black sphere thing? You mean after Reinforce seperated from the defensive program? Cause that wasn't exactly an attack.

LoweGear

2007-05-07, 10:08

I think he's referring to "Diabolic Emission".

*is quite overwhelmed at the moment by the sheer size of this thread, has trouble keeping up*

Kha

2007-05-07, 10:17

I think he's referring to "Diabolic Emission".

*is quite overwhelmed at the moment by the sheer size of this thread, has trouble keeping up*

Yeah, this is no doubt the most mentally challenging thread here. Those without science degrees will have some sort of trouble making sense of things. Even I have trouble making sense of myself sometimes.

Keroko

2007-05-07, 10:23

I think he's referring to "Diabolic Emission".

"mumble mumble" *research research* "grumble mumble" *google google* "grumble rar!" *click click*

Darn it, Wiki has hardly anything on Yami no Sho's skills. Hell, there's hardly anything on her skills on the net. I'll have to wait and get home before I can comment on this accurately.

Darco_emp

2007-05-07, 10:37

Yeah, this is no doubt the most mentally challenging thread here. Those without science degrees will have some sort of trouble making sense of things. Even I have trouble making sense of myself sometimes.

Even those who have done science in university will find some of this challenging...

On a sidenote since I remembered the Nanoha novel did say something about how colour relates to each mage, I'll post what it does say, I can't belive I completly forgot about this, but at least it did prove my freqency theory.

魔力の光の色。個人の魔力波長によって色が変化するが、魔法性質には特に関係は無い

"The color of magical light changes due to the magical wavelength of each person, It is completly unrelated to specialisation or characteristic of the magic used"

The above is what I could get from it, feel free to retranslate it with a better translation, since I kinda know its petty bad.

Meophist

2007-05-07, 10:40

I didn't think the science in this thread was that complicated…

Darco_emp

2007-05-07, 10:44

I didn't think the science in this thread was that complicated…

Go read that entropy thing in general discussions. It give me a headache..

Since I used simple math for all my theories, I do belive most people can follow it... hopefully...

Meophist

2007-05-07, 10:49

Well, it's not that bad, but I can see why it could give some people headaches. Of course, perhaps the reason I'm fine with it is because I don't agree with it.

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 12:00

*tilts head* I can't remember a single time where Yuuno was casting spells without a circle either.

When he's healing Nanoha it's just a glowing ball he's got in his hands. Similarly when he's running away from Vita and preparing their 'port-away in the second A's ep., it's just a glowing ball of energy he's got in his hand. He uses a diagram to defend against Vita but he's too busy running away to be standing on a circle.

Perhaps the places she is at is like eye of a cyclone. If we can a spherical field around YnS as the center of that attack then it should not effect her then. Or perhaps in the "coding" of her code she add an exception statement of sorts.

There are many ways to expain why an attack seems not to effect their user.

Um, I don't think it even matters for YnS. Her armor is impossibly strong, and her body is imbued with so much raw magic I could see it reducing the effectiveness of attacks against her by sheer pressure.

Erio

2007-05-07, 12:08

Argh. All the discussion happening while I'm sleeping and out of the house, again. :(

But do notice that a mages does not require the use of ID to cast spells.
Yup, that is correct. When I said: "This is where Intelligent Devices come in: to help mages use that raw magic..." I was thinking about Nanoha when she first used Raising Heart. Nanoha didnt know anything about casting magic at the time, but thanks to RH she was able to do it.

The Intelligent Devices help the mages with the calculations or whatnot to cast spells. As you guys have mentioned, mages can do the calculations by themselves as well, but definitely these calculations are done faster with the help of a Device.

On the topic of how Yuuno and Lindy cast spells without the help of a Device, do notice that Yuuno closes his eyes to concentrate when casting his spells. Definitely he is doing all the calculations inside his head. This fact alone proves how good Yuuno actually is, even though his Linker Core is not capable of withstanding the constant energy drain done by Raising Heart. If he gets another ID he can withstand, I'm sure he'd be a lot more powerful.

Uh huh, except that I don't recall it ever being stated that an AMF drains your life force. I think any normal person or mage could exist in an AMF and remain unharmed indefinitely. Its just that they can't use magic effectively because it becomes defocussed to the point of uselessness.

Hence my comment about the linker core itself being unaffected, only emitted magical energy being defocussed.
Actually, I wasnt trying to contradict you. In fact, what you said is almost the same as what I described in my theory, just that the theory described was more in-depth.

The thing is, the Subaru's RK doesn't always use cartridges to work. There is probably a default setting for continuous strength that allows the girl to smack the opposition and throw lots of metal around.

In ep5, the revolver unit served as a power generator for her ranged attack. Notice, she spins it manually before casting the magic missile instead of using a cartridge. Cartridge use IMO have always been to augment an existing attack, that or as a means to sidestep complex incantation.
Yes, that's why I'm confused. Subaru doesnt seem to use spells or even the cartridges to enhance her physical strength, and it seems that it is her Revolver Knuckle that is doing all the job. That's why I think that her punching strength comes from a mechanical energy source instead of a spell.

I think he's referring to "Diabolic Emission".

*is quite overwhelmed at the moment by the sheer size of this thread, has trouble keeping up*
You know, I was wondering why you havent joined the discussion yet, LoweGear. ;)

Even those who have done science in university will find some of this challenging...

On a sidenote since I remembered the Nanoha novel did say something about how colour relates to each mage, I'll post what it does say, I can't belive I completly forgot about this, but at least it did prove my freqency theory.
Wait, Nanoha NOVEL? Do you mean the Comics? I thought the only extras were a Comics manga and the Sound Stages...

[I]"The color of magical light changes due to the magical wavelength of each person, It is completly unrelated to specialisation or characteristic of the magic used"

The above is what I could get from it, feel free to retranslate it with a better translation, since I kinda know its petty bad.
I think it was Kha who came up with that theory a little while back, but thanks to this info the magic circle color case is closed. :D

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 12:16

"The color of magical light changes due to the magical wavelength of each person, It is completly unrelated to specialisation or characteristic of the magic used"

The above is what I could get from it, feel free to retranslate it with a better translation, since I kinda know its petty bad.

I'd say that goes against your theory. "It is completely unrelated to the characteristics"- Wavelength in magic has no effect on its properties outside color, totally different from real EM radiation where wavelength is the defining property.

Erio

2007-05-07, 12:17

When he's healing Nanoha it's just a glowing ball he's got in his hands. Similarly when he's running away from Vita and preparing their 'port-away in the second A's ep., it's just a glowing ball of energy he's got in his hand. He uses a diagram to defend against Vita but he's too busy running away to be standing on a circle.
Perhaps... Yuuno can create a magical circle by just clapping his hands...? :naughty:

... I'm joking.

Um, I don't think it even matters for YnS. Her armor is impossibly strong, and her body is imbued with so much raw magic I could see it reducing the effectiveness of attacks against her by sheer pressure.
I agree. I'm sure she was aware that she'd be damaged by the expansion of the Field, but she didnt care.

Burner of Anime

2007-05-07, 12:52

Yes, that's why I'm confused. Subaru doesnt seem to use spells or even the cartridges to enhance her physical strength, and it seems that it is her Revolver Knuckle that is doing all the job. That's why I think that her punching strength comes from a mechanical energy source instead of a spell.

Subaru's base physical strength is already quite substantial [eg; carrying Teana around in ep1], though it doesn't make sense to use her unarmoured fist against the opposition. :heh: The thing is, there is one spell that is 'on' all the time when using an ID actively- Barrier Jacket.

Now, we know from Fate and Nanoha that the BJ not only serves as defensive armour, but is also able to mount subsystems like the Flyer Fin for additional speed or heavier armour plate. Having a BJ serve as a specialist powered armour for additional strength isn't very far fetched.

I suspect that Revolver Knuckle works by converting Subaru's mana into kinetic energy, released as a shockwave on impact. Her missile bolts are likely an encased sphere of compressed energy working on the same principle. It's probably why she is so effective in melee against an AMF drone, she really isn't hitting them with magic but using her BJ's protection field to negate the AMF, then tear apart the machine on contact.

Cartridge use for her is to either harden her protection field or increase the store of power in her hit. Not very elegent but still an effective combat style.

Subaru's ID is decidedly more proactive that the one Teana uses. In combat it has thus far appeared to take evasive manuevers independent of command, formed a skybridge without asking, errected a protection field against Vita the instant she came swinging and generally run into reckless charges at the opposition. Mach Caliber may be one of the following:

-Is imbued with telepathy in order to react so quickly during the mess of combat.
-Has been programed with Subaru's combat style and personality in order to predict and execute the most likely command. [more likely since the girl is pretty straightforward :heh:]
-is a fully sentient AI capable of making sharp tactical decision is combat [Unlikely, Bardich and Raising Heart isn't even this good]

My money is on the AI program having a predictive program based on the user's preferred style.

Kha

2007-05-07, 13:22

Subaru's ID is decidedly more proactive that the one Teana uses. In combat it has thus far appeared to take evasive manuevers independent of command, formed a skybridge without asking, errected a protection field against Vita the instant she came swinging and generally run into reckless charges at the opposition. Mach Caliber may be one of the following:

-Is imbued with telepathy in order to react so quickly during the mess of combat.
-Has been programed with Subaru's combat style and personality in order to predict and execute the most likely command. [more likely since the girl is pretty straightforward :heh:]
-is a fully sentient AI capable of making sharp tactical decision is combat [Unlikely, Bardich and Raising Heart isn't even this good]

My money is on the AI program having a predictive program based on the user's preferred style.

Yawn... Why the heck am I still up? *rubs eyes*

Click, click...

But you got to consider that Mach was built much later than RH or Bard. Both senior devices were given upgrades over time, but normally there's a limit to how much something can be upgraded. Its safe to assume that Mach was built with the latest in MC technology that Chario could pull out of the racks, and that baseline might be even more advanced than RH and Bard.

With that said, this opens up to the M-Defensor attachment to form Super RH and Bard, if RH and Bard start finding themselves outmoded in the modern battlefield. :heh:

Keroko

2007-05-07, 13:43

-is a fully sentient AI capable of making sharp tactical decision is combat [Unlikely, Bardich and Raising Heart isn't even this good]

Actually, they are that good (They're called Intelligent Devices for a reason). I've lost count of the amount of times when Bardiche inserted aditional commands to Fate's spells. Favourite example should be Blitz Rush. Or when Raising Heart erected a protecion without being asked to do so.

But there is a difference between those two and Mach that you failed to notice: Whereas Raising Heart and Bardiche are offensive devices, Mach Caliber is a support device, naturally you would see more input from the device itself.

Erio

2007-05-07, 13:45

Subaru's base physical strength is already quite substantial [eg; carrying Teana around in ep1], though it doesn't make sense to use her unarmoured fist against the opposition. :heh: The thing is, there is one spell that is 'on' all the time when using an ID actively- Barrier Jacket.
Haha, yeah, I remember now. And Subaru was able to throw Teana 100 feet into the air.

Now, we know from Fate and Nanoha that the BJ not only serves as defensive armour, but is also able to mount subsystems like the Flyer Fin for additional speed or heavier armour plate. Having a BJ serve as a specialist powered armour for additional strength isn't very far fetched.
That's interesting. It sure may be possible.

I suspect that Revolver Knuckle works by converting Subaru's mana into kinetic energy, released as a shockwave on impact. Her missile bolts are likely an encased sphere of compressed energy working on the same principle. It's probably why she is so effective in melee against an AMF drone, she really isn't hitting them with magic but using her BJ's protection field to negate the AMF, then tear apart the machine on contact.

Cartridge use for her is to either harden her protection field or increase the store of power in her hit. Not very elegent but still an effective combat style.
Hmm... Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Yūkyūzan Anji from Rurouni Kenshin? :D

... Nevermind. :p

Kha

2007-05-07, 13:47

Hmm... Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Yūkyūzan Anji from Rurouni Kenshin? :D

... Nevermind. :p

Not that big. Someone smaller.

Segara (sp?) Sanosuke.

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 13:49

Sagara Sousuke? From FMP?

Erio

2007-05-07, 14:06

Not that big. Someone smaller.

Segara (sp?) Sanosuke.
Sagara Sanosuke, yeah.

Woden

2007-05-07, 15:06

Hmm... Does anyone about any polytheistic myths that actually feature the term "magic"? I just realize I've only really seen it and terms like "wizard" actually mentioned in legends after the fall of Rome. There are priests and wise people, but none of them claim to use something called magic... Based on the descriptions I've seen, we can't really call it technology either, because of the folklore surrounding it. The typical tools are not constructed devices, but rather normal objects of the time period. The idea of fiction is so old that you'd think we'd at least come across mention of some kind of freaking huge device...

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 16:00

Norse Myth has the seide (sorcery used primarily by female witch-types but also by Odin) and the rune magic used by Odin.

Plus all sorts of unclassified stuff like their magic items and the powers of guys like Utgarda-Loki.

It's worth pointing out, though, that the study of Norse myth in general and what I've read in specific are limited by the fact that the great majority of sources on it were written after Christianity overtook the native cults.

Woden

2007-05-07, 16:11

Yet the term used would be "seide" correct? It doesn't actually say sorcery. Also, I just looked up a translation for a story about gaining the knowledge of the runes and it just says "runes".

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 16:20

Well magic is an English word, of course they don't use it. Seid/Seidr/whatever is usually translated to 'sorcery' or 'witchcraft' so I'd think it's what you're looking for.

In Sayings of the High One Odin never describes his art as a 'magic' in my translation but he lists individual spells. Given that 'use of spells' is how we define magic I'd consider it a reference to magic as we use the term.

Woden

2007-05-07, 16:52

Alright, so "sorcery" seems to be the closest so far... I'm hesitant to join spells and magic directly, as at one point the text I think you're talking about goes into the "Song of Spells" according to my translation. Outside of the title, the other time I see "spell" used is it is followed shortly by "when I sing that song". So unless the Norse had some other meaning behind "song" (all my research is independent so I'm not sure) I'm not entirely sure what he meant by spell. My dictionary also says that spell can mean "irresistible influence" which could clearly mean an amazing song.

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 16:57

Ah, in the case of Seid the spells were supposed to be invoked by songs. Odin's rune spells are described as being chanted too.

Odin specifically describes the effects; things like putting out fires, making making an enemy's weapons ineffective, etc. that are obviously 'magical' and not just the product of good singing.

Woden

2007-05-07, 17:06

I've seen some amazing things done by people who were singing. Not to mention that I've read accounts of entire ships being saved by a group of people who suddenly broke out into song and found the strength to move a massive object (I think it was a mast) that they couldn't move before. Also, my translation says something about blunting weapons. Even with the little my school taught us about the Norse, we learned these were people whose armies featured warriors who the British claimed fought without shirts and who barely seemed to notice their wounds. Even more, the Norse won for quite some time. When they say "blunt" do they really mean ineffective or "it doesn't hurt as much as it should"?

Still, it would seem that the Norse did refer to something being along the lines of "magic" as opposed to divine intervention. Wait, didn't the Egyptians record books of charms and spells to aid the dead in their travels to the afterlife? Why aren't these part of the common concept of "magic"?

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 17:16

(Cut out a lot of the random verse but the descriptions of what they do are verbatim)

One which is called help and will help you against accusations and sorrows and every sort of anxiety

One which need by known by those who wish to become physicians

One which fetters my enemy, the edges of my foe I can blunt, neither weapon nor club will bite for them

One so that if men put chains upon my limbs, I can chant so that I can walk away, fetters spring from my feet and bonds from my hands

One so that if I see a dart fly amidst the army it cannot fly so fast I cannot stop it

One if I see towering flames in the hall about my companions, it cannot burn so widely that I cannot counteract it

One that if hatred flares between the sons of warriors I can bring settlement

One to protect my ship at sea, the wind I can lull upon the wave and quieten all the sea to sleep.

One if I see witches playing up in the air I can bring it about that they can't make their way back to their own shapes and spirits.

One when leading loyal friends into battle, under the shields I chant and they journey inviolate

One if I see a dangling corpse in a noose I can so carve and color the runes that the man walks and talks with me.

One if i shall pour water over a young warrior he will not fall though he goes into battle, before swords he will not sink

One to know the difference between elves and men (???)

(from there on they're either very abstract and refer to previous uses rather than the actual effect or allow him to seduce women)

At the very least I think that animating the dead is quite an achievement.

Woden

2007-05-07, 17:33

Meophist

2007-05-07, 17:52

Why don't you guys just check Wikipedia's article on the magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(paranormal)) instead?

Woden

2007-05-07, 18:39

Because it isn't exactly a reliable source, and is horribly unsatisfying. It isn't nearly comprehensive enough for the kind of studies I'm interested in, and when it comes to the actual ideas of magic itself lacks any depth deeper than you can get from a good look at D&D supplements. It is also fairly politically blind, which destroys half the fun for me.

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 19:02

Yep, the Norse seem to have referenced something close to magic as being from something besides holiness. Yet the implementation they recommend hasn't made in into today's common perception of magic...

The reason I'm asking is that I'm wondering if the idea of "magic" isn't just a catch-all term created by the major monotheistic religions for things not using divine power or technology.

The idea that knowing symbols of power is a way of gaining 'magical' powers seems to be the main Norse contribution to modern-fantasy conceptions. And as you say they're somewhat unique in that the gods can expand their powers by learning magic as opposed to being inherently above needing it.

Darco_emp

2007-05-07, 23:00

I'd say that goes against your theory. "It is completely unrelated to the characteristics"- Wavelength in magic has no effect on its properties outside color, totally different from real EM radiation where wavelength is the defining property.

That is that is only of the colour through, besides in my equations the frequency w, which is related to wavelength is completly unrelated to the structure anyways (note w can be anything). its the Phase and the Amp of that is defines the spell.

Anyway time for me to be off again.

Kikaifan

2007-05-07, 23:48

So in your model magic is nothing like real EM radiation.

Darco_emp

2007-05-08, 00:44

So in your model magic is nothing like real EM radiation.

It is a sine wave AM carrier A*sin(wt + ǿ) , I thought I made it clear hmm. Maybe not since I did try to expain the physical dmg factor with dual properties with this as well. so maybe that got related to E=hf.

I like good argument so if this model does rasie problem to the floor I'm happy to debate it out :D.

Kikaifan

2007-05-08, 03:44

Kha

2007-05-08, 07:00

If you're just saying that magical 'energy' has a waveform I don't have a problem.

If you're saying that magical energy is an EM wave, I do have a problem, mostly with the fact that EM waves have specific properties that don't include turning into glowing pink death balls because a little girl with a very fancy pocket calculator wanted them to.

I must admit I contradicted myself by oversimplify mana into EM like I did to gravity once to show how anti-gravity works. Promptly got shot down faster than Nanoha does Accel Shooter. *cringe*

I second the notion that magical energy has a waveform property. I believe it also has particulate properties, which I'm sure would come in handy in some way, just can't think of what at the moment.

Also, as an additional application of my anti-entropical theory on the nature of mana, is it far fetched to say that ceremonial spells appeal to the organized "living" characteristics of mana in order to cast them? As in, not just providing the maths to charge/aim/fire the spell, you also have to convince the magic to follow it?

Darco_emp

2007-05-08, 07:31

If you're just saying that magical 'energy' has a waveform I don't have a problem.

If you're saying that magical energy is an EM wave, I do have a problem, mostly with the fact that EM waves have specific properties that don't include turning into glowing pink death balls because a little girl with a very fancy pocket calculator wanted them to.

Lol, that is one of the point that I'm to work out, since even when the color is based on wavelength, I can not get pink nor white for that matter. maybe overlay of over a range of frequencies I guess...

Partical properties does only one thing in my book and that is to level cities :heh:, I guess H bonding will also use it.

Also, as an additional application of my anti-entropical theory on the nature of mana, is it far fetched to say that ceremonial spells appeal to the organized "living" characteristics of mana in order to cast them? As in, not just providing the maths to charge/aim/fire the spell, you also have to convince the magic to follow it?

Wha... That just flew over me...

Keroko

2007-05-08, 07:34

Also, as an additional application of my anti-entropical theory on the nature of mana, is it far fetched to say that ceremonial spells appeal to the organized "living" characteristics of mana in order to cast them? As in, not just providing the maths to charge/aim/fire the spell, you also have to convince the magic to follow it?

I doupt it, otherwise 'reflexive spellcasting' wouldn't work, because no matter the speed at which you can cast, there will always be time needed to 'convince' the energies to coöperate. Imagine needing to erect a barrier and having the energies being troublesome.

Kha

2007-05-08, 08:11

I doupt it, otherwise 'reflexive spellcasting' wouldn't work, because no matter the speed at which you can cast, there will always be time needed to 'convince' the energies to coöperate. Imagine needing to erect a barrier and having the energies being troublesome.

Hmm true.

Well I've got the problem of why ceremonial spells exist. They sound rather beseeching in nature. The presence of SB means that just a mute charging phase would suffice if one is delaying cast to charge power, so no help from there. Any ideas?

Darco_emp

2007-05-08, 08:36

Hmm true.

Well I've got the problem of why ceremonial spells exist. They sound rather beseeching in nature. The presence of SB means that just a mute charging phase would suffice if one is delaying cast to charge power, so no help from there. Any ideas?

SLB and most of Nanoha's spells in genral uses a storage function in the IDs with a loading time and energy build up, (I tried to find the passage for this be failed).and maybe due to the "size" of the storage memory can not hold things like ceremonial spells with long incantations or such, they need to be chanted

Keroko

2007-05-08, 08:43

Starlight Breaker's long casting time can also be circumvented by expending an entire magazine of cardridges to provide the charge. Perhaps ceremonial spells are like passwords and actions.

Kha

2007-05-08, 09:01

SLB and most of Nanoha's spells in genral uses a storage function in the IDs with a loading time and energy build up, (I tried to find the passage for this be failed).and maybe due to the "size" of the storage memory can not hold things like ceremonial spells with long incantations or such, they need to be chanted

Starlight Breaker's long casting time can also be circumvented by expending an entire magazine of cardridges to provide the charge. Perhaps ceremonial spells are like passwords and actions.

Hmm... Well then the Book can store a heck load of data, but Hayate seems to be the one with the most ceremonials. But for passwords, wouldn't a "USB Key" suffice? However while reading the responses, my mind latched onto something from school.

Evolutionary baggage: Basically the parts and structures carried over from a previous species that the current one evolved from. May or may not have any beneficial use.

Maybe the ceremonies still function as passwords to a higher power only because they were the predominant form of powerful magics that predated the modern IDs and SDs, and mages cling to it for cultural reasons?

LoweGear

2007-05-08, 09:02

Keroko

2007-05-08, 09:11

That was actually what I meant :heh: couldn't find the right wording in the five seconds I had to post.

Kha

2007-05-08, 09:40

On the subject of ceremonial spells:

I have always been under the impression, ever since I the first time I wanted to clarify magic, that ceremonial spells are nothing more than extremely fancy mnemonic tools, designed to focus the mage's mind in order to better concentrate and focus the large amounts of magic necessary for certain spells. People of course do speak out loud whenever they want to concentrate on the job at hand, like counting large amounts of something for example, or if they don't want to get confused in following the steps in a certain complex procedure.

It also leads me to believe that, given enough time and experience, a mage would sooner or later be able to concentrate such spells without incantations, since they have already learned the spell enough to focus their minds without the incantation, i.e. like how people stop reciting the steps of a procedure when they've memorized it enough.

The thought that Hayate can logically just play back anything recorded in her Little Brown/Blue Book, but she isn't doing so, just keeps nagging at me and wouldn't go away. I understand what ceremonial spells do in non-ID eras, and it is perfect explained in BLEACH kidou techniques, but this is Nanoha, where there are arca-tronic aids to memory in a Device, and the Book can hold 666 pages worth of Linker Core data. Isn't that enough to hold the full data for a ceremonial spell?

Wait another thought just hit me: Maybe that saves space, and so Hayate can cram more into that Book? But that means she's trading speed for functionality... Hmm...

I think I'm thinking too much into this. :heh:

Keroko

2007-05-08, 09:43

LoweGear

2007-05-08, 09:45

Or maybe, the book works on a different concept. Maybe the data stored in the book is so massive that it takes an incantation to actually extract the data meaningfully from the book? Or, the book itself as used by Hayate today is an anachronism that, while potentially extremely powerful, isn't quite "up-to-spec" to current magic technologies, either due to the mechanics of the book that do give it it's power, or because of Hayate's sentimentality? :heh:

Keroko

2007-05-08, 09:48

Well, the Yami no Sho was a Lost Logia. Personally, I think incantations are like Hayate's version of cardridges. Some spells need cardridges to work, some of Hayate's spells need incantations to work.

Kha

2007-05-08, 09:58

Well, you do have to remember that the book was technically formatted when the original Reinforce vanished. In other words, right now its practically empty, only containing whatever Hayate has been gathering these last few years.

Hmm... No wonder there's no Starlight Breaker on tap anymore. I wonder what Hayate fills it pages with now?

Then again, has she been chasing lost pages during her off hours a la Cardcaptor Sakura? After all, she's the leading girl and Tomoyo in one nifty package. :heh:

Or maybe, the book works on a different concept. Maybe the data stored in the book is so massive that it takes an incantation to actually extract the data meaningfully from the book? Or, the book itself as used by Hayate today is an anachronism that, while potentially extremely powerful, isn't quite "up-to-spec" to current magic technologies, either due to the mechanics of the book that do give it it's power, or because of Hayate's sentimentality? :heh:

BINGO! Archaic tech level and possibly practices. Gives her cool screen time and adds variety to the high-speed no nonsense approaches of her colleagues too. And maybe her "cosplay" habits means that she's the type that digs role play so much that she loves to act like an Oldtype?

I wonder how much of that was me being serious and me with tongue in cheek. I felt like I swung from pole to pole while typing.

Kikaifan

2007-05-08, 10:18

Could be a two-tiered system. Incantation is a way to increase synchronization between caster and device effort or refine the output to some degree necessary for the device to make use of it. After all, since the caster possesses the linker core I imagine their control over it continues to be important no matter how powerful a device they have handling the later-stage/external manipulations.

Erio

2007-05-08, 11:19

For me, mages use incantations in order to concentrate for the collection of external energy and the organization of such massive amounts of energy. I say 'collection' because I'm pretty sure the energy gathered was summoned somehow. In other words, the energy used for these big spells do not come only from the caster.

A good example of this is Nanoha's Starlight Breaker, where Nanoha takes time to collects external energy, though we dont see Nanoha recite an incantation in order to collect the energy. Another example is Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift spell in episode 11, first season. Hayate definitely has the advantage here, because her Book is a massive storage device capable of storing energy from various different sources, so technically she does not need to summon or gather energy from external sources to cast her big spells.

-----
I'm going a bit out of the way here, as I thought of a few interesting ideas. Dont take this part too seriously. :heh:

(I think of "ceremonial" spells as just "collection" spells)

Thinking about Geomancers from Dungeons & Dragons, what if the mage needs the surrounding area to have the correct type of energy for him or her to gather and use in the ceremonial spells?

Example: Nanoha's Starlight Breaker, again, collects the scattered energy leftover from the battle. If she decides to use Starlight Breaker at the beginning of the battle, the power of the spell would be meager compared to the same spell if used later.

What if Atem des Eises can only be casted in cold areas? Then Hayate must have stored ice-elemental energy in her Book. In other words, if she needs ice-elemental energy, she goes to the pages of the book where she stored that type of energy. This would explain why Hayate uses ceremonial spells.

Disclaimer: I completely invented this crazy idea. No matter if its wrong, I thought it was interesting. :p

Kikaifan

2007-05-08, 18:41

Actually makes sense even if it does come only from the caster. After all, if the mages have limited output on a per-second basis longer spellcasting = more power s a natural assumption.

Though such a mechanism limits the advantage of collection spells to probably just an increase in speed over ritual magic.

Actually does anyone mind bringing to the table thoughts on exactly how Nanoha mages are limited in calling up magical energy? I always got the impression from Chrono's 'exceeding the limits of her througput' comment that they were only limited by how much they could channel at once, not some larger store like Slayers/most RPG characters/etc., but now that I think about it the statement could just as easily be taken to establish a secondary limit on volume of throughput over larger timescales.

BatAttack

2007-05-08, 21:36

Storage is one thing, but execution is another.

Your storage device might be able to store the entire ceremonial spell, but it could just be that ceremonial spells have a long cast time because they have to be deployed in stages - you cannot go onto the next phase until the previous one has been sucesfully complete.

And, as symbols have power (like the sygils in the magic circles), words could also have power. It could be that when Fate names the various entities in Phalanx Shift, she is doing so so she can tap into their power. So the words of the incantation might have very real importance to the spell's execution, rather than being some arbitrary mnemonic trick..

After all, the show's name is Lyrical Nanoha - lyrics are words; might this hint that the words are an integral requirement of the Nanohaverse's magic system?

Kikaifan

2007-05-08, 21:39

I wish baka-tsuki or someone would translate the novel... it's hard to have these discussions when just a few people know the content.

Erio

2007-05-08, 22:26

After all, the show's name is Lyrical Nanoha - lyrics are words; might this hint that the words are an integral requirement of the Nanohaverse's magic system?
Haha, its weird that Nanoha doesnt use an incantation for Starlight Breaker, but Fate and Hayate do when using their bigger spells.

I wish baka-tsuki or someone would translate the novel... it's hard to have these discussions when just a few people know the content.
What novel is this?

Skane

2007-05-08, 22:34

Haha, its weird that Nanoha doesnt use an incantation for Starlight Breaker, but Fate and Hayate do when using their bigger spells.
~
MSLN...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

A's...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

A few episodes later...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

Manga...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER! STARLIGHT BREAKER! STARLIGHT BREAKER!"
~~~~ ~~~~

The point is... Nanoha is using Starlight Breaker on a "regular" basis. It stands to reason that she would have learnt to be very comfortable with the equations needed to cast it (regardless of complexity).

As anyone who has ever dabbled with mathematics will know, if you have to write an equation over and over again, you WILL memorise it by heart whether you like it or not, until you start to stop using it, only THEN will you start to forget it.

Fate and Hayate on the other hand, do not spam their "Ceremonial Spells" like cheap hotbuns on a Baker's Sale. Given the supposed complexity of such spells, it is understandable that they need to do it the "normal" way and do the chant.

Cheers.

Erio

2007-05-08, 22:44

MSLN...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

A's...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

A few episodes later...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

Manga...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER! STARLIGHT BREAKER! STARLIGHT BREAKER!"
~~~~ ~~~~

The point is... Nanoha is using Starlight Breaker on a "regular" basis. It stands to reason that she would have learnt to be very comfortable with the equations needed to cast it (regardless of complexity).

As anyone who has ever dabbled with mathematics will know, if you have to write an equation over and over again, you WILL memorise it by heart whether you like it or not, until you start to stop using it, only THEN will you start to forget it.

Fate and Hayate on the other hand, do not spam their "Ceremonial Spells" like cheap hotbuns on a Baker's Sale. Given the supposed complexity of such spells, it is understandable that they need to do it the "normal" way and do the chant.

Cheers.
Yes, that's something that applies to everything you do. It's obvious. Your theory would make sense if she had to recite an incantation the first time but not the rest... but she never had to! :heh:

The point of my comment was that Nanoha has never had a spell that required incantation. The only time she recited one was when first activating Raising Heart. Yet the series is called "Lyrical Nanoha." Not that I'm complaining. I just find it funny.

Skane

2007-05-08, 22:58

Yes, that's something that applies to everything you do. It's obvious. Your theory would make sense if she had to recite an incantation the first time but not the rest... but she never had to! :heh:

The point of my comment was that Nanoha has never had a spell that required incantation. The only time she recited one was when first activating Raising Heart. Yet the series is called "Lyrical Nanoha." Not that I'm complaining. I just find it funny.
Well, this brings us back to the manga, where we know Nanoha does intensive self-training on her own. When she used Starlight Breaker(SB) on Fate, it was NOT the first time that Nanoha had used it before (and her words to Fate said it as much as well).

To put it simply, we did not get to see HOW Nanoha learnt SB in the first place. They skipped that part. What we DO know is that Nanoha uses SB very regularly, and so it stands to reason that she will be well-acquainted with its equations by now.

Cheers.

Erio

2007-05-08, 23:15

Well, this brings us back to the manga, where we know Nanoha does intensive self-training on her own. When she used Starlight Breaker(SB) on Fate, it was NOT the first time that Nanoha had used it before (and her words to Fate said it as much as well).

To put it simply, we did not get to see HOW Nanoha learnt SB in the first place. They skipped that part. What we DO know is that Nanoha uses SB very regularly, and so it stands to reason that she will be well-acquainted with its equations by now.

Cheers.
That does make sense. Surely she had to come up with the idea behind SB before she used it against Fate in the anime, I have no doubt. I still believe, however, that Starlight Breaker does not require an incantation. It is just a powered up version of Divine Buster, using particles of leftover magic from the battlefield to increase the power.

Oh well, I dont think we will go anywhere discussing this, as there is no solid proof to back either of our claims. One thing is for certain, though: she does have a lot more experience using it, and surely the casting speed is increased, as well as the destructive power.

Meophist

2007-05-08, 23:20

Hrmm. I thought Nanoha did say that was the first time.

Burner of Anime

2007-05-08, 23:25

My take on the Nanohaverse magic system :D

I've come to think of those magic circles as a form of scaffolding to actually hold, convert then finally transmit the energies into a magical effect. It's easier to think that by actually summoning one it's a way of saying "Start Here" before adding to the structure for different effects. There has to be some sort of universal principle to work on for the various spheres and disciplines of magic in this show, otherwise it just cannot be taught or even replicated through artifacts. The summoning of that incantation circle would have to be so critical to spellcasting that a mage must call for one in an instant, possibly trained until it becomes a reflex action.

Take Subaru's Wing Road for example: it begins as her incantation circle before expanding into a solid ribbon. My take on the process for this spell is first the Circle as the base, the link to her Linker Core to power the spell, finally the conversion and transmission of the effect. For something like Caro's summoners circle, the massive size would have been required to gather the energies and decompress her familiar as well as install the control mechanisms.

It would also have to take all her will and concentration to execute, any mistake and Fred would have likely gone berserk. The user's confidence and skill in building a structure of the size and complexity needed would have to be important, so one would have to appreciate the skill and mana store required to pull that sort of summoning off.

Anyway, an artifact would likely have these steps preprogrammed into the system for quick access, all it would require is the intent of the user. It can either cast the spell by itself or increase the success rate by reducing user error in expanding the spell structure.

May also explain why Jewel Seeds or other unknown artifacts run amok- one of the above 4 elements or Circle, Power, Program and Transmission is either incompatible or somehow corrupted in the automated system. These are pretty old things, likely with an Incantation Circle built in that is completely alien to the one the user has [like a different computer language]. Or it has a power source that conflicts with the Linker Core of the user. Corrupted Program is what the Tome of the Night Sky illustrates :uhoh: . Failure to Execute I'd say is catastrophic nuclear meltdown. Definately not pretty.

The AMF working on the above principle would have to distrupt any of the above elements of a spell in order to work. The easiest way would be to leech away the power source or distrupt the circle or transmission. In ep5 the AMF drone did this.

Anyway, Vita's explaination of the different sort of defensive field that can be used is quite interesting. She illustrated 3 types: The Barrier which is a concentrated and limited area shield which appears like the incantation circle spinning rapidly, The Protection shield for complete cover and the diffused defense field generated from the body. The common denominator was how the incantation circle was used and how the artifact would have executed it. It's possible that a defense field is "on" all the time from the use of the Barrier Jacket.

Erio

2007-05-08, 23:25

Hrmm. I thought Nanoha did say that was the first time.
Yeah, that's what I thought too. While she had an idea of what to do (probably because she is an avid gamer), it was the first time she tried it.

Darco_emp

2007-05-08, 23:29

That does make sense. Surely she had to come up with the idea behind SB before she used it against Fate in the anime, I have no doubt. I still believe, however, that Starlight Breaker does not require an incantation. It is just a powered up version of Divine Buster, using particles of leftover magic from the battlefield to increase the power.

Oh well, I dont think we will go anywhere discussing this, as there is no solid proof to back either of our claims. One thing is for certain, though: she does have a lot more experience using it, and surely the casting speed is increased, as well as the destructive power.

For the case of SLB, Nanoha uses the storage functions of RH to by pass the spell incantation. We still have no clue as to how different SLB is to DB, other then its a "collection spell", but the usage of it is possbile due to the unique dissipation of leftover magic particles that Nanoha uses.

The novel is the one released after season 1, retelling the Battle above the sea, and other bits and pieces

Skane

2007-05-08, 23:29

Yeah, that's what I thought too. While she had an idea of what to do (probably because she is an avid gamer), it was the first time she tried it.
Nope. She never said it was her first time (unless you mean it would be the first time that Fate is witnessing it ;)). Rewatch the episode.

Cheers.

Erio

2007-05-08, 23:40

Nope. She never said it was her first time (unless you mean it would be the first time that Fate is witnessing it ;)). Rewatch the episode.

Cheers.
She didnt say anything, actually. (I just rewatched) :heh:

Well, as I said in my previous post, I'm sure she thought of it beforehand. The fact that she practiced it or not is something else. But if we take into account how the first season progresses, from the time Nanoha started using magic until she used Starlight Breaker, there wasnt much free time for Nanoha to train and practice new spells. The manga takes place after the events of the first season, too.

Oops, even though I was the one who said that there is not much point discussing this, I still go at it. Sorry. :heh:

BatAttack

2007-05-08, 23:50

Burner of Anime

2007-05-09, 00:52

Yeah, I don't think she got much practice during season 1 - it looked like 'on the job training' to me.

It's after s1 and before A's that she got the opportunity to get into a regular training schedule.

Anyway - Starlight Breaker is a collection and bombardment type spell, but it is NOT a ceremonial spell, so no lengthy incantation is needed.

I don't think the incantation on ceremonial spells can be skipped, no matter how experienced you are. Just as simple words (the name of the spell) are pass-phrases for normal spells, the lengthy arias are the pass-phrases for ceremonial spells (otherwise, I doubt they would have their own category).

Nanoha is a wild mage at her core. This means she doesn't have the sort of directed training a regular mage would have since young. This would include the summoning of the Incantation Circle as well as the Language to program the effect. Much of her use of magic at the beginning is just the barest understanding of principle, natural instinct and the help of a sentient weapon able to develop shortcuts to the program language in the field very quickly.

In other words, the girl has been extremely lucky that many of the elements required for spellcasting are compatible to her. It may very well be that the language of Magic is language of Imagination, something Nanoha has an abundance of :D.

Her contemporary Fate was trained so that her single focus in spellcasting is to execute the spell as quickly as possible. The basic training is already in place unlike Nanoha, but much of her flexibility, strength and natural instinct sacrificed for the speed. Considering her mom [who was in R&D], it's possible that Fate's training regime would have include previously developed shortcuts in spellcasting with this in mind. The rate of error would have to be pretty high for the girl, but as we all know the discipline of getting perfection right was literally beaten into her >_< Fate's advantage in spellcasting comes from a highly disciplined mind and the incredible focus that come from it.

Both girls are geniuses in their respective fields and in S3 we have Caro who is likely another sort of genuis. There is something in her proficency that allows her to influence the spells of other people, compress and tame a naturally fierce creature and create/command gigantic magical structures. I suspect it is the element of raw courage in a very young person, no one in their right mind will jump off a speeding bullet train voluntarily unless she is very confident in pulling off a miracle. In that instant, her error rate in assembling the summoning spell went from near total failure to certain success. It's probably what allowed the girl to catch that dragon in the first place. All subsequent failure to control I blame on the idiots who put the fear of abuse into her :frustrated:

So no, incantation for summonings cannot be skipped. I mentioned before it's required to install control mechanism in the summoned creature. Like Caro's tanking spells, it needs to be specifically directed at a taget for it to work.

I'm beginning to see what is so different between the MC and Velka systems now, in the shortcuts taken to execute the spell. A Velka knight specialises is close combat, long phrases are near impossible to execute in the mess of battle [they do have them as seen at then end of S2]. They are therefore more reliant on their use of artifacts to form the spell and cartridges to power them, their linker cores I suspect are used to augment their physical abilities or increase their defensive capacity. The MC system appear to be towards general use, thus the users are more numerous. In a fight, it's usually the numbers game that wins :heh:

Nightengale

2007-05-09, 00:55

I believe it was mentioned that Yuuno trained Nanoha at flying, and also some basic execution of the exterior elements of magic since he's not an offense mage.

Erio

2007-05-09, 01:14

Anyway - Starlight Breaker is a collection and bombardment type spell, but it is NOT a ceremonial spell, so no lengthy incantation is needed.
Yeah. I was just thinking the other way around: Ceremonial spells are Collection type spells, just much more complex (thus requiring the incantation). That's why I was wondering why doesnt Nanoha need an incantation for SB. Then came the "Lyrical Nanoha" part... its weird that Nanoha doesnt have any spells that require incantations, when it would have been obvious to give her one as the title suggests. (I know, I know, it comes from Lyrical Box or something... but... maybe you get the point ;))

@Burner of Anime
Nanoha is definitely a genius, but it was thanks to Raising Heart and Yuuno that she was able to make a quick start.

Burner of Anime

2007-05-09, 01:41

For the case of SLB, Nanoha uses the storage functions of RH to by pass the spell incantation. We still have no clue as to how different SLB is to DB, other then its a "collection spell", but the usage of it is possbile due to the unique dissipation of leftover magic particles that Nanoha uses.

Hazard a guess, if it's the same spell in structure, then wouldn't the difference be in the size/complexity of the structure in addition to the basic spell? If that's the case RH would simply reuse the command path for DB with the following changes:

1 Both RH and Nanoha's Circle turn into receivers to absorb the ambient energy. Nanoha will personally expand hers while RH produces it's own.
2 A command line is added to the circle to store the energy and the structure grows in size. Either Nanoha has this preprogrammed or RH adds this as the spell is put into "setup" mode
3 Expanding the transmitter to be able to fire her giant bolt of pink death :heh: Done during the setup stage.

If that's the case, then all the spell would require is the trigger command to fire.

BatAttack

2007-05-09, 02:31

Hmmmm... I just remembered.

Yuuno originally taught Nanoha to deploy Raging Heart with an incantation..
and he expected her to have to do it every time (back when he did not know she was leet).

In one of the subsequenty battles (was it ep2?) with a jewel seed, Nanoha managed to deploy Raging Heart right away, with only a word or two.. much to Yuuno's surprise.

Burner of Anime

2007-05-09, 02:57

In one of the subsequenty battles (was it ep2?) with a jewel seed, Nanoha managed to deploy Raging Heart right away, with only a word or two.. much to Yuuno's surprise.

Probably because he thought that she was not able to form the Circle untrained. The Circle may have actually imprinted on to the girl from her initial link with Yuuno from the dreamscape. There probably was a lot of natural empathy towards it, that RH would have also attracted the one person most compatible to it's power. The more compatible to the artifact, the easier it is to use IMO.

Meophist

2007-05-09, 18:10

Say, I've been thinking. Perhaps maybe the magic circle is a computer?

Burner of Anime

2007-05-09, 20:53

Say, I've been thinking. Perhaps maybe the magic circle is a computer?

Not likely, a mage learns how to use the circle first by visualising it then summoning it before using the system to effect reality. If the circle was a computer, why does the mage/artifact have to do all the hard work thinking up what to say and putting it together intead of leaving that to the circle?

I look at the circle IMO, and it brings to mind an access gate to a place I'd call reality layer zero. A mage affects the reality they are in by manipulating aspects from a hyperspace layer, accessed by a dimensional gate. An incantation sends the intention to affect reality through changes of the mage's gate. An artifact can do the same using the mage's gate as well as a mathematical modal.

The various magic systems and circle types probably arose from different civiliations using similar approaches but accessing and changing reality with different languages.

Meophist

2007-05-09, 21:04

I wasn't refering to a literal computer. When I was watching some stuff, I noticed in the bye-bye Reinforce scene, the magic circles resembled a computer network or chip. So I came to the idea that perhaps those magic circles have similar properties as a computer.

Keroko

2007-05-10, 06:03

Well, this brings us back to the manga, where we know Nanoha does intensive self-training on her own. When she used Starlight Breaker(SB) on Fate, it was NOT the first time that Nanoha had used it before (and her words to Fate said it as much as well).

*blink* I was under the impression that the practice scene was after the battle with Fate, seeing how Chrono is observing her practicing and are familiar with her.

Or is there another manga that I need to hunt down?

Skane

2007-05-10, 06:14

*blink* I was under the impression that the practice scene was after the battle with Fate, seeing how Chrono is observing her practicing and are familiar with her.

Or is there another manga that I need to hunt down?
Nono, your timeline is correct. I was just pointing out that Nanoha most probably practised to use SB before her final confrontation with Fate (and not like, just pull it out of her a** for that fight).

Cheers.

Keroko

2007-05-10, 07:31

Nono, your timeline is correct. I was just pointing out that Nanoha most probably practised to use SB before her final confrontation with Fate (and not like, just pull it out of her a** for that fight).

Cheers.

Ah, well, makes sense. Though I have to point out that most of Nanoha's spells are, in fact, 'pulled out of her a**' (from the top of my head, jewel seed sealing, search, Divine Buster, Protection, Protection Powered, Axel Shooter)

Granted, Raising Heart provided some of those, but I think the 'listen to your heart' talk Yuuno gave Nanoha may have more credit in the seemingly spontanious creation of Starlight Breaker then you are giving it. Especially considering Nanoha's schedule at that time was school-search for jewel seeds-sleep, there wasn't much time for actual training.

LoweGear

2007-05-10, 07:54

Skane

2007-05-10, 08:03

We can't make any concrete judgements on what Nanoha did during those days, but one MUST bear in mind that we DID NOT get to see how Nanoha spend her days, nor how long it took for her to gather all those other Jewel Seeds (they more or less fast-forwarded it).

After all, if her outings with her friends are any indication, she DOES NOT spend 24/7 searching for the Jewel Seeds. On that line of thought, it is credible to believe that she and Yuuno allocated time to practise her spellcasting.

We just don't get to see it.

Cheers.

Keroko

2007-05-10, 08:04

Well, her "school" actually consisted more of "virtual combat training while looking attentive in class", and considering how many hours of the day she spends in school, she does have enough time for training, and that's not including the fact that she doesn't go to sleep right away, but uses her nights for more physical training.

Well yes, that's in the manga, which is after Nanoha. During Nanoha she was too exhausted to do anything else but sleep.

We can't make any concrete judgements on what Nanoha did during those days, but one MUST bear in mind that we DID NOT get to see how Nanoha spend her days, nor how long it took for her to gather all those other Jewel Seeds (they more or less fast-forwarded it).

After all, if her outings with her friends are any indication, she DOES NOT spend 24/7 searching for the Jewel Seeds. On that line of thought, it is credible to believe that she and Yuuno allocated time to practise her spellcasting.

We just don't get to see it.

Cheers.

Hmm, true, the absence of a timeline is annoying...

I withdraw my objections that its impossible, but I still change them to improbable.

Skane

2007-05-10, 08:07

Well yes, that's in the manga, which is after Nanoha. During Nanoha she was too exhausted to do anything else but sleep.
This is incorrect. She was only exhausted AFTER sealing a Jewel Seed. During the days when she does not find any Jewel Seeds (or is not actively finding one), we see that she goes on with her daily life (such as visiting friends, or watching a soccer match).

She is hardly not doing anything else. There is no solid evidence to oppose that she and Yuuno spent time to practise her magic.

Cheers.

LoweGear

2007-05-10, 08:11

Hmmm... I'd better check-up on the timeline on that chapter...

Keroko

2007-05-10, 08:30

This is incorrect. She was only exhausted AFTER sealing a Jewel Seed. During the days when she does not find any Jewel Seeds (or is not actively finding one), we see that she goes on with her daily life (such as visiting friends, or watching a soccer match).

She is hardly not doing anything else. There is no solid evidence to oppose that she and Yuuno spent time to practise her magic.

Cheers.

Ahh, but if she was only exhausted after sealing a jewel seed (which uses magic) then why wasn't she exhausted when she goes on with her daily life? After all, if she was training during that time, she should have been exhausted during her private life as well, which as you pointed out, she isn't.

Darco_emp

2007-05-10, 08:32

This is incorrect. She was only exhausted AFTER sealing a Jewel Seed. During the days when she does not find any Jewel Seeds (or is not actively finding one), we see that she goes on with her daily life (such as visiting friends, or watching a soccer match).

She is hardly not doing anything else. There is no solid evidence to oppose that she and Yuuno spent time to practise her magic.

Cheers.

In fact there are evidence support Nanoha is practising her magic with the ferret. Since I belive the sound track ep 2.5 or 6.5 for season one I think does say something on the lines of Nanoha's insane training scheme.

I do belive that the inital exhaustion is due to her not customed to the energy drain by RH, after she is adpted to it she is fine. I belive this was implied when they only showed Nanoha exhausted after a sealing for the first few Eps

Skane

2007-05-10, 08:34

Ahh, but if she was only exhausted after sealing a jewel seed (which uses magic) then why wasn't she exhausted when she goes on with her daily life? After all, if she was training during that time, she should have been exhausted during her private life as well, which as you pointed out, she isn't.
Here we need to reference the A's Manga where they talked about her training. Nanoha felt uncomfortable from training with RH at first, but she never felt exhausted from it.

By the timeline in A's, she was used to it.

Cheers.

Keroko

2007-05-10, 08:39

Okay, I think I've been stomped on the training part of the argument. :heh:

But speaking of the soundtracks, is there any evidence of Nanoha practicing Starlight Breaker?

Darco_emp

2007-05-10, 08:50

Okay, I think I've been stomped on the training part of the argument. :heh:

But speaking of the soundtracks, is there any evidence of Nanoha practicing Starlight Breaker?

SLB no, Divine Shooter yes.

It is implied in the novel that Nanoha at least planned SLB up with alot of thought since one of the requirments for SLB is magical particles distributed in a way that is easy for recollection.

Burner of Anime

2007-05-10, 10:30

Going into artificial life and the replicate theme in MGLN:

In S1 there was Fate as an augmented clone and introduced the concept of intelligent devices. Arf can also be considered an artificial lifeform because of her status as a familiar.

S2 pushed it a little further with the Wolkenritter. The guardians show the full range of human emotion, independent thought through their rebellion and packed into a physical body. Sentient entities of tremendous power, their individual personalities are likely flawless copies of the Tome of the Nightsky's original guardians. Ageless, immortal and virtually indestructable due to their link to the book- they would rank amongst the most powerful humanoid replicates ever created. On a lighter note, we can safely call Rein II Carbon Copy [C.C. :heh: ]

S3 has thus far been showcasing a growing war between man and machine. Hints have so far led back to the artificial life experiments that created Fate. What is Fate exactly? Is she Human or a Perfect machine? One that is able to physically mature and have emotions, yet fights with superhuman speed, focus and precision.

Thoughts here because the lack of information means the girl can be either. :uhoh:

[my money is on another breed of human, unless they show the growing up bit to be part of the program :heh:]

KempoCatholic

2007-05-10, 18:15

Well, in S2 Lindy did tell Fate that she was fully biologically human, and the only difference was that she had been born a different way, so I'd think that Fate is just a genetically modified test tube baby rather than any sort of a organic robot or anything more exotic....

Although with this "Project F" thing in the latest episode, I have a feeling that there will be a little more to it than that, but anything beyond this is just going to be speculation as nothing has been revealed as of yet.

Meophist

2007-05-11, 10:31

Haa~

Going upon my magic-circle=computer theory, I'm going to expand on it:
First and foremost, I didn't mean it literally but metaphorically.

Thinking the circle itself as a computer chip rather than a computer in its entirely, we could think the circles that are a part of the magic circle to be individual processing units. The band that connects the smaller circles together could be considered the connecters between the processors. The processing units work together to convert magical energy into actual magic.

This would mean that there would be many different possible types of magic circles. The common Mid-Childa and Belka styles of magic circles would probably be ones that have proven efficiency and power, not to mention many of the spells are probably based on these standards.

The Mid-Childa circle has a central circle in the middle, with an outside circle containing four more circles, each containing a symbol. The circle in the middle is a small "band" surrounded by a larger band on the outside. In addition to transfering magical energy around, these could also double as processors. The smaller one with its tighter band creates the "core" of the spell, while the larger one adds to the spell with the other four processors. This can create spells with a wide variety of effects, but would be generally slower to start up.

In contrast, the Belka has only four circles period, of roughly equal size all connected together. The each have a dedicated band connecting to each other circle, which can equate to faster transfer of magical energy and more coherency. Again, there's one main circle in the middle and this time three supports. This probably can translate into faster processing of power, but at the expense of more added effects to the spell.

…though I just made all this up, how's it for a theory?

LoweGear

2007-05-11, 10:43

As a theory, very well. I had the same idea about the magic arrays, as circuits using magic as energy conduits, and that their shape determined the magic functions they can perform. Although yours is the first time anyone has tried to explain the actual geometry as it applied to the spells themselves.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-01, 21:32

Cut and paste :heh:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT: What you said culd be true I realized, but that gives a hint that mages are weaker to these magical attacks for the side effects run straight through known defences, lowering the ability to maintain their defence, causing it to come down and therefore continued attack would've torn the mage to pieces. Teana was smashed twice with the same attack, and all she got was KO'd. Fate was hit with a continuous attack, only her barrier jacket, a creation of magic, sustained damage.

And that's why there's a mixed of magic and physical damage...

Like for example, Halo.

Even a beginner could tell you that the Elite's shield goes down faster when you're using plasma weapons. But people still uses conventional weapons because it does more damage to their unprotected bodies.

Same case here. Magic does more damage to magic base properties, while physical does more damage to physical base properties. :D

Meophist

2007-06-01, 21:36

Continuing from Episode 09 discussion (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=973719&postcount=1060)Well, that thing was sort of heading towards her face :heh: ...Barrier jacket also uses barriers and fields for defense. In other words, there's more than you can see.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-01, 21:45

Continuing from Episode 09 discussion (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=973719&postcount=1060)Barrier jacket also uses barriers and fields for defense. In other words, there's more than you can see.

Still, it doesn't mean it would be painless. The shock could still knock her off her feet and out cold.

Falling from that height could also be lethal... And even if Mach Caliber could save her by creating another wing road, the threat of the Drones was still at large.

Either way, I can't imagine it to be a pleasant experience :heh:

Meophist

2007-06-01, 21:48

Still, it doesn't mean it would be painless. The shock could still knock her off her feet and out cold.

Falling from that height could also be lethal... And even if Mach Caliber could save her by creating another wing road, the threat of the Drones was still at large.

Either way, I can't imagine it to be a pleasant experience :heh:
Well, I'm not saying that she's going to get out of it free of harm. I'm just saying that it doesn't automatically mean she'll die from it. My original point was "It depends on the strength of Subaru's Barrier Jacket"(paraphrasing).

Cats

2007-06-02, 00:35

Perhaps, but technically she shouldn't be able to fly either. How far are we willing to mix realism with a show about magic?

But the flying bit isn't explained, in other words we know she can fly because that's just the way it is. But with those balls the explanation is that she hits them all with the hammer and the fly away. Which is a impossible move. :heh:

@MG vs PY Dam debate: The same energy attack can be used to deal either magical or physical damage. Crossfire was used in the former manner against Teana, in that instead of dealing HP damage, it burned her MP instead, causing her to 'appear tired and exhausted', especially if you equate a person's mana pool to his/her energy/stamina level. I think this is possible as there's no physical component to the attack, so no hard object to deal physical base damage; and so by changing the form of energy the spell is charged with (lets say instead of intense thermal energy, raw "anti-mana" is used) the damage dealt changes.

There was talk about uniqueness, perhaps the casters are unique, in the form of damage ration (physical and magical and elemental) they are able to deal.

Known defence and protection systems work against both attacks, and damage only occurs when all have been overwhelmed.

Most likely true for pure magic damage.
But certainly not for elemental or physical damage.

Take Fate's injury to the leg in A's when fighting Signum in planet X.
Her barrier jacket seemed ok.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 01:52

But the flying bit isn't explained, in other words we know she can fly because that's just the way it is. But with those balls the explanation is that she hits them all with the hammer and the fly away. Which is a impossible move. :heh:

Action, reaction.

You cannot use physic to explain the balls, which are by right magic-base in property. (As in they're created by magic)

Hitting the ball with her hammer is like a program that triggers the attack.

It's the 'starting' move.

Most likely true for pure magic damage.
But certainly not for elemental or physical damage.

Take Fate's injury to the leg in A's when fighting Signum in planet X.
Her barrier jacket seemed ok.

My personal take on this is that even though the barrier jacket by right covers the entire body of the caster, the part where you can see the clothes are the ones where the protection are more heavily concentrated.

Keroko

2007-06-02, 02:40

But the flying bit isn't explained, in other words we know she can fly because that's just the way it is. But with those balls the explanation is that she hits them all with the hammer and the fly away. Which is a impossible move. :heh:

And I suppose suddenly materializing red bunny-hated suit at will, wielding a hammer that takes on impossible shapes withing seconds etc. etc. is normal?

I find hitting a ball with a hammer to be far more believable then that.

@Magic damage versus Physical damage.

I'm still saying this whole 'attacking the soul, not the body' stuff is rubish. We know magic deals damage on a physical damage (if it hurts, the damage is physical. The method, however, is magical).

Back to punch references: I can punch someone so hard, that I break the bones in his body. I can also punch someone so softly that he merely falls down, or falls unconcious without bleeding. Why the hell would I regulate my punches to attack his soul, needlesly complicating everything, if I can merley hit him hard enough to fall unconcious?

The beam of energy makes a physical impact, which delivers a physical blow. The barrier jacket makes sure that said physical blow does not tear through the body. Of course, the blow can tear through and destroy the body as well, as long as the caster puts in enough energy.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 03:01

@Magic damage versus Physical damage.

I'm still saying this whole 'attacking the soul, not the body' stuff is rubish. We know magic deals damage on a physical damage (if it hurts, the damage is physical. The method, however, is magical).

Keroko, you must really learn to not take my examples too seriously :heh:

A spell, created by magic, can damage an object Physically, magically, or even both properties.

It's all depends on what the user wants.

Back to punch references: I can punch someone so hard, that I break the bones in his body. I can also punch someone so softly that he merely falls down, or falls unconcious without bleeding. Why the hell would I regulate my punches to attack his soul, needlesly complicating everything, if I can merley hit him hard enough to fall unconcious?

Assuming you can punch someone's soul, it's would be alot easier to go full power and attack the person's 'soul' because you won't have to worry about injuring the opponents physically.

Sure you can just use pure physical damage, but you could also risk killing that person if your not careful.

Your punch would knock someone out cold, but it could also give him brain damage.

The beam of energy makes a physical impact, which delivers a physical blow. The barrier jacket makes sure that said physical blow does not tear through the body. Of course, the blow can tear through and destroy the body as well, as long as the caster puts in enough energy.

It depends on the mission.

Not everything is about killing the enemy.

Keroko

2007-06-02, 03:12

Keroko, you must really learn to not take my examples too seriously :heh:

*shrug* I was just using the soul because it's the first I remembered being used.

A spell, created by magic, can damage an object Physically, magically, or even both properties.

It's all depends on what the user wants.

But what is 'magical' damage, then? Like I said, I don't like the 'attacking ones soul' idea.

Assuming you can punch someone's soul, it's would be alot easier to go full power and attack the person's 'soul' because you won't have to worry about injuring the opponents physically.

Sure you can just use pure physical damage, but you could also risk killing that person if your not careful.

Your punch would knock someone out cold, but it could also give him brain damage.

But attacking someone's soul doesn't hurt, as it isn't physical damage. Where then, is the lesson?

Oh, another example: Nanoha fighting Vita the first time. Nanoha was confused as to why Vita was attacking her, and retaliated. Seeing Nanoha's personallity, she would not go for a deathblow without knowing why Vita attacked her. Now, according to the 'attacking the soul' theory, this would be the perfect time to attack the soul.

But wait! What happens? Vita's hat is torn to shreds. That means this attack delivered physical damage through magical means, as the hat should have remained untouched.

An Hero in Disguise

2007-06-02, 03:15

My personal take on this is that even though the barrier jacket by right covers the entire body of the caster, the part where you can see the clothes are the ones where the protection are more heavily concentrated.

Reminds me how I was laughing hard almost every time I saw some "armored" female character in anime.

I'm still saying this whole 'attacking the soul, not the body' stuff is rubish. We know magic deals damage on a physical damage (if it hurts, the damage is physical. The method, however, is magical).

Back to punch references: I can punch someone so hard, that I break the bones in his body. I can also punch someone so softly that he merely falls down, or falls unconcious without bleeding. Why the hell would I regulate my punches to attack his soul, needlesly complicating everything, if I can merley hit him hard enough to fall unconcious?

The beam of energy makes a physical impact, which delivers a physical blow. The barrier jacket makes sure that said physical blow does not tear through the body. Of course, the blow can tear through and destroy the body as well, as long as the caster puts in enough energy.

You have a point, yet there're situations when feeling that something hurts doesn't necessarily mean that it actually does (I remember hearing something how people were made to believe their wrists were slit when they actually weren't, but people died after some time because their brain thought they lost most of their blood).

Attacking someone's soul comes handy when you want him unconscious but with the body left all clean and shiny :D

Anyway I myself find the conception "99.99% of the damage dealt by that huge pink beam which caused an explosion a 10-megaton warhead could only dream of and a 30-m tsunami was purely magical so everyone is barely scratched but unconscious" is totally lame. Just posting arguments for fun :p

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 03:18

*shrug* I was just using the soul because it's the first I remembered being used.

Like I've said, I was using a term not from the MSLN world.

But what is 'magical' damage, then? Like I said, I don't like the 'attacking ones soul' idea.

It attacks the magical properties of the target.

How's that sounds?

But attacking someone's soul doesn't hurt, as it isn't physical damage. Where then, is the lesson?

Lesson of what?

Oh, another example: Nanoha fighting Vita the first time. Nanoha was confused as to why Vita was attacking her, and retaliated. Seeing Nanoha's personallity, she would not go for a deathblow without knowing why Vita attacked her. Now, according to the 'attacking the soul' theory, this would be the perfect time to attack the soul.

But wait! What happens? Vita's hat is torn to shreds. That means this attack delivered physical damage through magical means, as the hat should have remained untouched.

Could you tell me which attacks did Nanoha use? :)

And in my opinion, Barrier Jackets (The hat included :p) are mostly magic-base, seeing as how they can come out of nowhere.

Cats

2007-06-02, 03:24

Keroko
The idea wasn't that it damages their soul, it was that it damages or disturbs their magic linker-core thingy.
But you might be right, it might be that magic damage can't penetrate the body, based on how an AMF doesn't effect the mages, other then disabling them.

But then the question still remains, why are they hurting when hit by something like Nanoha's beam attacks which presumably won't do them any damage. Couldn't they just seal (or hold back) all their magical powers, wait until the beam finishes (it's not like it's going to do them any harm) then just unseal their powers and go beat up, now drained and weak, Nanoha.

Avatar_notADV

2007-06-02, 03:27

What about Signum and Fate dueling in S2? There were a couple of times where near-misses produced a "magical field" effect. Neither caster had anything like the time for a defensive spell, so it seems likely that the effect was caused by the barrier jacket turning the blow.

The first time Fate scored a scratch on Signum, it was definitely in an area where she was covered by her barrier jacket, and we didn't see a big rent in it sufficient to account for the tear, either, so obviously there's -something- in Fate's attacks beyond mere physical force, and that the barrier jacket is not an absolute defense - you can get hit under it without having it torn off first. (Or maybe it just self-repairs cuts?)

I'm not convinced that there's an absolute explanation, in the sense that they don't all work consistently. Certainly Fate's barrier jacket was torn pretty easily by Precia, even though it's unlikely that each of those attacks was stronger than the strongest Nanoha was throwing at Fate. (Of course, if it's the barrier jacket performing magical defense, naturally Precia's going to turn Fate's off.) Nanoha certainly got pounded by Vita, and her barrier jacket suffered extreme (if controlled) damage, but on the other hand we know Vita wasn't actually trying to -kill- Nanoha.

We also know that Nanoha's barrier jacket was in pretty good shape, when she got nailed after S2, for someone who needed extensive physical therapy to walk again. So either the animators weren't being consistent, or it's possible to gravely wound a magician without tearing up the barrier jacket too much.

It's also possible that the barrier jacket is more of an active defense than it looks, and that it takes some attention on behalf of the wearer for it to perform its "buff" functions. Certainly both Nanoha and Fate take some heavy fire on their respective jackets from time to time, without too much wear and tear to the bodies, but they're generally aware of the incoming attack. It's not too much to imagine that a sucker punch could get through, and it lets us resolve the torn-up Nanoha with the more-or-less intact barrier jacket - the surprise attack plus her stress buildup prevented her, not from putting up a defensive SPELL, but from putting the energy in defense so that she could suffer wardrobe damage instead of massive physical trauma.

(Then again, do we actually know that she had purely physical trauma? Could have just been a magical effect - if her nervous system's already kind of wavy due to throwing too many heavy magical punches, then the surge it took to keep her alive might have had some sort of backlash effect. Certainly Nanoha's not scarred up consistent with an injury of that magnitude! Though we have no way of knowing how much of that is due to the plastic surgeons of the TSA, of course. It would also account for why an attack that appeared to be -frontal- and concentrated on Nanoha's torso would have caused her problems walking in rehabilitation - if we're talking actual spinal damage, it would have ripped through just about everything and killed her just to get there, but a magical overload could have affected her normal nervous function without leaving big holes in important organs.)

An Hero in Disguise

2007-06-02, 03:27

And in my opinion, Barrier Jackets (The hat included :p) are mostly magic-base, seeing as how they can come out of nowhere.

True-true, I wouldn't have it the other way - BJ is ripped apart but the body is alright (mostly), there should be at least one scene like this in StrikerS :heh:

@Avatar_notADV:

Everything you mention could be either important pieces of information about the ways magic works in Nanohaverse or banal plotholes and producers' failures :heh: oh irony.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 03:30

KHA?!?!

Where the hell are you?! Why am I fending them off on my own?!?!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keroko
The idea wasn't that it damages their soul, it was that it damages or disturbs their magic linker-core thingy.
But you might be right, it might be that magic damage can't penetrate the body, based on how an AMF doesn't effect the mages, other then disabling them.

The term 'soul' was just an example... :heh:

I use it to describe something on the inside of a living being, but not physical.

But then the question still remains, why are they hurting when hit by something like Nanoha's beam attacks which presumably won't do them any damage. Couldn't they just seal (or hold back) all their magical powers, wait until the beam finishes (it's no like it's going to do them any harm) then just unseal their powers and go beat up, now drained and weak, Nanoha.

You are assuming ALL of Nanoha's beam attacks are magical damage only :heh:

Recall how she trashed Precia's tin cans back in season 1.

And no, I don't think they can just make their magic vanish all of a sudden without external help. It's like in any RPG game, you can't just have your mana gone for no reason.

And in this case, a mage without mana is someone who practically run 100 miles and is now exhausted.

EDIT:

True-true, I wouldn't have it the other way - BJ is ripped apart but the body is alright (mostly), there should be at least one scene like this in StrikerS :heh:

If you're thinking of something from Negima... :heh:

An Hero in Disguise

2007-06-02, 03:36

And in this case, a mage without mana is someone who practically run 100 miles and is now exhausted.

That's where mana potions come into play :heh:

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 03:39

That's where mana potions come into play :heh:

Yeah, except... You know, it's going to be complicating trying to drink in the middle of a combat zone... :heh:

And not to mention the fatigue... :p

Cats

2007-06-02, 03:44

I like rejuvination potions. :heh:
Or just tapping on the other person's supply. :heh:

The first time Fate scored a scratch on Signum, it was definitely in an area where she was covered by her barrier jacket, and we didn't see a big rent in it sufficient to account for the tear, either, so obviously there's -something- in Fate's attacks beyond mere physical force, and that the barrier jacket is not an absolute defense - you can get hit under it without having it torn off first. (Or maybe it just self-repairs cuts?)

There's lightining associated with Fate's attack.. my guess.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 03:46

I like rejuvination potions. :heh:
Or just tapping on the other person's supply. :heh:

A vampire mage, I had that idea for like ever... :D

Keroko

2007-06-02, 03:49

It attacks the magical properties of the target.

How's that sounds?

Lame, actually. If there's no risk of inury, there's no thrill.

Lesson of what?

Sorry, I was still refering to Teana's example (which is basically where this whole mess started. :heh:)

Could you tell me which attacks did Nanoha use? :)

And in my opinion, Barrier Jackets (The hat included) are mostly magic-base, seeing as how they can come out of nowhere.

At that moment? It was a Divine Buster.

Keroko
The idea wasn't that it damages their soul, it was that it damages or disturbs their magic linker-core thingy.
But you might be right, it might be that magic damage can't penetrate the body, based on how an AMF doesn't effect the mages, other then disabling them.

Not to mention the only time Linker Cores were damaged was during the Yami no Sho incident. All other times, the damage was physical.

KHA?!?!

Where the hell are you?! Why am I fending them off on my own?!?!

Your precious Kleriker cannot help you here, foolish one....

You are assuming ALL of Nanoha's beam attacks are magical damage only :heh:

Recall how she trashed Precia's tin cans back in season 1.

Ahh, but all of Nanoha's spells are purely magical in nature. But if you think magical spell, but physical impact, the tin-can incident suddenly makes sense.

And no, I don't think they can just make their magic vanish all of a sudden without external help. It's like in any RPG game, you can't just have your mana gone for no reason.

And in this case, a mage without mana is someone who practically run 100 miles and is now exhausted.

That I agree on.

If you're thinking of something from Negima... :heh:

Yes, Negima does seem to reverse engineer the Nanoha effect, doesn't it? :D

There's lightining associated with Fate's attack.. my guess.

The Scythe is purely magical.

I suppose I should explain my biggest gripe with this theory. This theory practically screams 'there is no risk of injury in Nanoha' going by this theory, it destroys all the tension in the first two seasons, because hey, they're only attacking the souls. No risk of killing them or anything. It's just... incredibly lame, as Hero in Disguise put it.

Juck, no thanks. If I wanted that I'd watch a normal magical girl show where people toss around pink hearts. Give me fatal injuries any day.

Avatar_notADV

2007-06-02, 03:55

Everything you mention could be either important pieces of information about the ways magic works in Nanohaverse or banal plotholes and producers' failures :heh: oh irony.

Which is my point, more or less. It's still possible to construct theories that are consistent with all observed examples and make at least some kind of sense, but it's getting hard, when it comes to barrier jacket function; Occam's Razor at this point suggests that it's purely plot armor and an excuse for frilly clothing instead of heavy metal. ;p

It's definitely the case that nobody sat down and thought of the rank structure of the TSA relative to where they stuck the characters in it. Lt. Col. at 19 is not merely preposterous, it's just not DONE. Ever. At this rate, it's virtually impossible that Hayate will not become, at some point, the senior serving officer in the TSA, barring death or super-early retirement (or going rogue, heh). It's also not done to have a captain and a lieutenant commanding two privates in a squad - either Tea and Subaru have a biiig promotion coming up, or the writers arbitrarily set Nanoha and Fate's ranks without really worrying about where everybody else would end up. (And Rein as their senior NCO? Oh, lord, oh, lord...)

We have to cut Nanoha the show some slack, because it's obvious that it's way way way past anything the original concept might have contained - it's some writer's joke gotten far out of hand here, and so we can expect to find holes in how things were treated. I personally find it fun to spin this kind of theory, even though I'm pretty certain that it's not actually anywhere in the mind of the writers, even to the extent that any of them are even worried about things like internal consistency and backstory and world creation. (On a professional basis, I've been disappointed this way before - come up with competing theories that would have an effect on the translation, asked the Japanese which one was closer to what they had in mind, and gotten a response of "whoa, man, we just did all this 'cause it looked cool".)

Come to think of it, I've been doing this for a good chunk of my life... I remember haunting the Star Trek technical echo in the days before the internet. ;p

Finally, it's safe to assume that there's no Nanoha equivalent of Ether potions, more or less because they'd be very useful to weaker mages (like the ones in wide use in the TSA), yet we haven't seen any direct evidence of them. We know that the TSA will adapt to use useful technologies if they offer a significant advantage, because of their widespread adoption of the cartridge system. If they can issue clips of the things to grunts like Teana and Subaru for training use, they could pass around the magic Gatorade to everybody too...

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 03:57

Lame, actually. If there's no risk of inury, there's no thrill.

It's a means to an end.

Recall what I've said about plasma weapons against the Elites' shields? Magic damage gets rid of magical properties so that the physical portion could be expose to fire.

Sorry, I was still refering to Teana's example (which is basically where this whole mess started. :heh:)

You still have to be more specific :heh:, exactly which part of her lesson...

At that moment? It was a Divine Buster.

Now, I'm pretty sure divine buster is a mix of both types of damage :p

Not to mention the only time Linker Cores were damaged was during the Yami no Sho incident. All other times, the damage was physical.

*sneezedcoughhipcupfatecoughsneezedhipcup*

Your precious clericker cannot help you here, foolish one....

What did you do? Touch him? :twitch:

Ahh, but all of Nanoha's spells are purely magical in nature. But if you think magical spell, but physical impact, the tin-can incident suddenly makes sense.

Magic DAMAGE

Why the heck would they be called magic spells if they're made by anything but magic :heh: ?

The Scythe is purely magical.

I suppose I should explain my biggest gripe with this theory. This theory practically screams 'there is no risk of injury in Nanoha' going by this theory, it destroys all the tension in the first two seasons, because hey, they're only attacking the souls. No risk of killing them or anything. It's just... incredibly lame, as Hero in Disguise put it.

Juck, no thanks. If I wanted that I'd watch a normal magical girl show where people toss around pink herts. Give me fatal injuries any day.

Listen to me, VERY carefully...

They can CHOOSE whether anot to use which ever TYPE of damage. And MOST of the time, it's USUALLY a mixed of BOTH.

That means, IF they want to use PHYSICAL damage, they CAN do so and it would result in a bloody mess.

Cats

2007-06-02, 04:12

If the damage was mixed, why the fuss over AMF?! :rolleyes: :heh:

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 04:14

If the damage was mixed, why the fuss over AMF?!

BECAUSE, the AMF disrupts the spell altogether. Not the type of damage, but the whole damn thing.

It doesn't matter what type of spell it is, if it's caught in it's field, it would begin to fall apart (Though at different rate...).

Only certain special spells are designed with properties that can overcome this effect.

An Hero in Disguise

2007-06-02, 04:24

A vampire mage, I had that idea for like ever... :D

Don't remind me of vampire mages, I'm trying to give up on my Prophet/Necromancer :heh:

Back on topic: talking about AMF again - I really, REALLY was expecting more out of it that they've shown so far. The heroes have way too little problems dealing with it that could be expected after all the fuss in manga and first episodes.

Keroko

2007-06-02, 04:27

Listen to me, VERY carefully...

They can CHOOSE whether anot to use which ever TYPE of damage. And MOST of the time, it's USUALLY a mixed of BOTH.

That means, IF they want to use PHYSICAL damage, they CAN do so and it would result in a bloody mess.

I'm going to stop quoting everything and get back to the source of what started this discussion. Chaos, don't take this personally, this is aimed at everyone. You're just the unlucky chap who's post I quoted.

If I recall, this 'physical damage/soul damage' thing started after Teana survived two direct hits from Nanoha, seemingly without even single scrath on her body. This sparked discussion because there was absolutely no damage to be seen, this is also when people dragged up the other incidents where this happened and decided to explain it by going with the soul/spirit/linker whatever you want to call it damage. The only reason this started was to explain why people could survive direct hits without a scratch.

Everyone still with me so far? Good, let's continue.

Now, let me ask you, how much evidence do we have that this so called 'non-physical damage' exists? None. 'But Keroko, look at Fate! Look at Teana! They survived direct hits from powerfull beam blasts without a scratch! It can't be physical damage!' Why not? During A's Nanoha and Fate get tossed through buildings regularely, and get out without a scratch. Are you saying that getting tossed through a building is 'non-physical damage' as well? No, obviously that is physical damage, and yet both Nanoha and Fate get up, clutch a random body part in pain and get back to fighting, despite the fact that there is not a single surface wound.

So we've established that beams deliver physical damage, purely because there is no evidence stating otherwise. So how do we explain that people keep getting hit and comming out without a scratch? Well, instead of looking at the ofensive and start theorycrafting, let's look at it's direct oposite: Defense. There are many types of defense, and most are outwardly defending the blow before it hits the body. Shields, fields, barriers, we've been through them, and nobody used them during the incidents mentioned. But they still have one more layer of defense, one that is a lot less dramatic, yet we can't imagine our doom-girls without them: Barrier jackets. Is it not possible for a barrier jacket to nullify, or at least extremely reduce, the impact of a beam of destruction? We know they are defensive material, it has been mentioned multiple times. So why do we ignore them as if they don't exist? Why can't it be possible that it is not the beam, but the defense in question that makes sure people don't get a single scratch?

Think about it. It makes more sense, and has a lot less unproven theories in it.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 04:28

Back on topic: talking about AMF again - I really, REALLY was expecting more out of it that they've shown so far. The heroes have way too little problems dealing with it that could be expected after all the fuss in manga and first episodes.

Depends on which heroes you're talking about.

The drones are definately of no match to Nanoha/Fate/Signum/Vita.

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 04:28

Don't remind me of vampire mages, I'm trying to give up on my Prophet/Necromancer :heh:

Back on topic: talking about AMF again - I really, REALLY was expecting more out of it that they've shown so far. The heroes have way too little problems dealing with it that could be expected after all the fuss in manga and first episodes.

Well, they could introduce a Godzilla-sized drone with an AMF EX+++.:heh:
Seems like the output of the ones shown so far are the best the current drones can do. I think the strength of output and size are the important points in the effectiveness of AMF's.

@Chaos: This looks like fun.:D Mind if I join in to even out the numbers?

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 04:39

@Chaos: This looks like fun.:D Mind if I join in to even out the numbers?

You can start by helping me dig out proof that the term 'magic damage' is not fan made... :heh:

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 04:45

You can start by helping me dig out proof that the term 'magic damage' is not fan made... :heh:

Yuuno ordered Nanoha to hit Reinforce with as much MAGIC damage as she can during A's. Will that do?:D

Keroko

2007-06-02, 04:46

Yuuno ordered Nanoha to hit Reinforce with as much MAGIC damage as she can during A's. Will that do?:D

Nope, that can still relate to physical damage, concidering every single one of Nanoha's attacks are magical.

Edit: The term magic damage itself is a confusing one, anwyay. Can't you think of a better one, Chaos?

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 04:47

Yuuno ordered Nanoha to hit Reinforce with as much MAGIC damage as she can during A's. Will that do?:D

I don't know... I can bet their counter would be

"But that could mean just any spell attacks!"

We have to go right back to the source... back when people first wondered why Fate wasn't well-done after being hit by Starlight Breaker...

Nope, that can still relate to physical damage, concerning every single one of Nanoha's attacks are magical.

See? :p

Edit: The term magic damage itself is a confusing one, anwyay. Can't you think of a better one, Chaos?

It's not MY words :heh:

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 04:48

Nope, that can still relate to physical damage, concerning every single one of Nanoha's attacks are magical.

I think it was more along the lines of not harming Hayate's body in order to save both her and Fate.

Keroko

2007-06-02, 04:52

I think it was more along the lines of not harming Hayate's body in order to save both her and Fate.

He also says 'don't hold anything back' converting physical damage into spiritual damage would do so. Besides, concidering you would be attacking Hayate's soul, wouldn't that be even more dangerous?

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 04:54

He also says 'don't hold anything back' converting physical damage into spiritual damage would do so. Besides, concidering you would be attacking Hayate's soul, wouldn't that be even more dangerous?

...Stop using the word 'soul' :heh:

I didn't mean it as in LITERALLY her soul ... :heh:

Cats

2007-06-02, 04:55

The term magic damage itself is a confusing one, anwyay. Can't you think of a better one, Chaos?

Craft Dmg.
Mana Dmg.
Linker Dmg.
Spell-Cast Dmg.
...

---
Or my own personal favorite...
Lyrical Damage. :heh:

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 04:56

Keroko

2007-06-02, 04:58

...Stop using the word 'soul' :heh:

I didn't mean it as in LITERALLY her soul ... :heh:

Then what else are we supposed to be using? You're the one claiming that they're not attacked on a physical level.

Yeesh, I feel as if no-one read my post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=974163&postcount=196) using defense instead of beams as an argument.

After all, the only reason this started was because people could survive hit without a scratch on their body.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 04:59

Then what else are we supposed to be using? You're the one claiming that they're not attacked on a physical level.

I've already change it to "magical properties".

I'm not the one who first said the Starlight Breaker does Magic damage only... Damn, where are the more experienced people when you need them?

Cats

2007-06-02, 04:59

After all, the only reason this started was because people could survive hit without a scratch on their body.

When does this episode air.
I'm sure the no-blood and few scratches might be explained with air-times and audience very easily. :D

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 05:01

Then what else are we supposed to be using? You're the one claiming that they're not attacked on a physical level.

Yeesh, I feel as if no-one read my post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=974163&postcount=196) using defense instead of beams as an argument.

After all, the only reason this started was because people could survive hit without a scratch on their body.

I, for one am not discounting the role of Barrier Jackets in defense. But of course, it also functions as physical defense aside from magic defense. Getting thrown thru buildings proves it's worth despite looking like cosplay costumes.:heh:

An Hero in Disguise

2007-06-02, 05:16

When does this episode air.
I'm sure the no-blood and few scratches might be explained with air-times and audience very easily. :D

1:10 AM? At this time I'd expect flying limbs and decapitated magical girls :rolleyes:

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 05:22

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 05:25

Umm, I think Keroko's brought up discussions about defense would be a good topic right now.

The barrier jacket design never really mattered much. It defends you against both spells and physical weapons all the same. The no cuts and no scratches even after smashing into buildings makes this all the more valid, right?

*Wave hand in front of face*

The Barrier jacket is a fancy piece of armor, yes yes... Why else would it be there...

Like the "Phase Shift"...

(Yes, I KNOW they work differently...)

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 05:27

*Wave hand in front of face*

The Barrier jacket is a fancy piece of armor, yes yes... Why else would it be there...

Like the "Phase Shift"...

(Yes, I KNOW they work differently...)

Sooo, are the parties already in agreement?:confused:

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 05:41

Sooo, are the parties already in agreement?:confused:

I have never doubt the Barrier Jacket as a form of protection :heh: Nor can I deny that they provide some level of defence for both physical and magic base damage.

(Ah ha! The term does exist officially! I'm not crazy!!!! MUWHAHAHAHAHA...!)

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 05:44

I have never doubt the Barrier Jacket as a form of protection :heh: Nor can I deny that they provide some level of defence for both physical and magic base damage.

(Ah ha! The term does exist officially! I'm not crazy!!!! MUWHAHAHAHAHA...!)

Actually, I think you've gone crazy AFTER the confirmation of your claims.:heh:

I think you should quote Thisguy's post here to avoid confusion.
Ah, nevermind, I'll do it instead.

Now that I noticed, I've been using that setting without thinking much, I'm relatively new for this series myself (it was even after A's airing) :heh:

After quick reading through wiki, it was first explained in 1st season DVD booklet (which I don't have), and official page mentions about it too.
(Official page's summary for A's Ep11, as far as I've found, clearly says about it)

Also A's manga mentions about these "Non-lethal" settings in last episode and (according to Wiki) Novel too makes explanation of it.

Keroko

2007-06-02, 06:05

I have never doubt the Barrier Jacket as a form of protection :heh: Nor can I deny that they provide some level of defence for both physical and magic base damage.

(Ah ha! The term does exist officially! I'm not crazy!!!! MUWHAHAHAHAHA...!)

Unfortunately, this still doesn't prove your 'spirit/soul/linker/watachamacallit damage' claim (as I never denied the existece of the magical damage term, I just found magical damage and physical damage to have the same result, namely physical injury).

After all, this was the chapter ThisGuy was reffering to (Note Hayate explaining the rules about none lethal attacks in the bottom right frame):

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_MSLNA_07_-_15.png (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/MSLNA_07_-_15.png)

and this was the result:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_MSLNA_07_-_20.png (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/MSLNA_07_-_20.png)

Now, you try and explain to me why all those people are charred and dirty, or what all that rubble is doing there if the attacks were supposed to be non-physical. :D

Seems like my claim about down-powering your attacks is far more likely.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 07:16

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 07:31

Unfortunately, this still doesn't prove your 'spirit/soul/linker/watachamacallit damage' claim (as I never denied the existece of the magical damage term, I just found magical damage and physical damage to have the same result, namely physical injury).

After all, this was the chapter ThisGuy was reffering to (Note Hayate explaining the rules about none lethal attacks in the bottom right frame):

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_MSLNA_07_-_15.png (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/MSLNA_07_-_15.png)

and this was the result:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_MSLNA_07_-_20.png (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/MSLNA_07_-_20.png)

Now, you try and explain to me why all those people are charred and dirty, or what all that rubble is doing there if the attacks were supposed to be non-physical. :D

Seems like my claim about down-powering your attacks is far more likely.

Three possible answers and two relative questions. You may take your pick.:D

Here goes:

I was under the impression that the clashing S-ranked attacks far surpassed the pre-set parameters of the training room and caused a major breakdown in the equipment, which leads to explosion.:confused:

OR

When did they say that physical damage are prohibited in the match? Hayate said non-lethal and not non-physical. Signum, Vita and the others wouldn't fit in, otherwise.

OR

It was just a case of the producers not thinking as far ahead as us.:heh:

OR

We could always bring up the issue of why did the water gushed upward when Nanoha fired a purely magic damage Starlight Breaker on Fate during S1?

OR

Why wasn't there a scratch on Uminari City after Reinforce 1 fired off her Starlight Breaker?

Basically, we're only arguing ourselves into a corner and out of it later.:heh:

Personally, I think the concepts of the several types of damages are not as well thought out by the producers, so there are several noticeable plot holes that can be seen if you look closely enough.:heh:

Like I said, this isn't STAR WARS.:heh:

Cats

2007-06-02, 07:33

"Magical Property".
Didn't you and Kero-chan agree that all spells are magical in nature~
Well, that's easy :)

Magical attacks affect Barrier Jackets because they're magic-base to begin with, hence their jackets are in a mess.

And a physical attack can also be "non-lethal", doesn't mean it's purely magic base.

And I've got official info as back up :p

Official tangible info~ or just official? :p
Thisguy wasn't very explicit with the info.. no quoting or physical proof.
Your theory-damage ain't hurting right now~

As it stands I could say barrier jackets when destroyed cause physical damage and call forth X official-what-not as backing. Your claims are similar but I don't see 100% compatibility~ yet. Still just at theory level. :p

Also, about the jacket.
Here's Teana after Nanoha's first volley. (it's the same after the second as well)
http://xs216.xs.to/xs216/07226/Element.000.jpeg

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 07:46

Didn't you and Kero-chan agree that all spells are magical in nature~

They are.

But certain, if not most, spell have a physical element to it. When I said "Magical Property", I was refering to the parts of the spell that aren't physical.

Official tangible info~ or just official? :p
Thisguy wasn't very explicit with the info.. no quoting or physical proof.
Your theory-damage ain't hurting right now~

Sigh, must we really take things this far? :heh:

He said the information came from the 1st season DVD booklet. Now it's been how many months since then? Wouldn't someone have stood out and claim otherwise if that information is false?

As it stands I could say barrier jackets when destroyed cause physical damage and call forth X official-what-not as backing. Your claims are similar but I don't see 100% compatibility~ yet. Still just at theory level. :p

Also, about the jacket.
Here's Teana after Nanoha's first volley. (it's the same after the second as well)
http://xs216.xs.to/xs216/07226/Element.000.jpeg

And as I've also said before, Barrier jackets are MOSTLY magical property. The small amount of physical is what keeps it on their bodies and keeps them warm.

Barrier jacket's stability are inconsistence, there isn't really a fixed figure on how much punishment it could take.

EDIT:

@Kha

"Hell, it's about time..."

Kha

2007-06-02, 07:51

KHA?!?!

Where the hell are you?! Why am I fending them off on my own?!?!

Hell, it's about time...*drifts into the thread*

You summoned me, didn't you?

*glances around*

Yare, yare. What happened here? I was getting comfortable with the OC and Fanfic thread. AND fighting the tyrannical actions of ODEX, with our operations base here (http://www.darkmirage.com/2007/05/30/apocalypse-now/).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Join the war, fellow countrymen! Boycott ODEX!!!

For the people who have the right to watch anime from the best source of their choice!

For keeping anime alive in S'pore!

For God Empress S******* H*****!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With that aside...

*flexes pseudoscience muscles*

Let us begin.

The term 'soul' was just an example... :heh:

I use it to describe something on the inside of a living being, but not physical.Inaccurate terms create confusion. That is a problem that was heavily tackled in human anatomy, thus giving me multus trouble remembering everything.

As my lecturer says, "When you tackle a problem, start from First Principles."

So we shall focus on magic within a person.

Using canon terminology, we know that a person's magical energy (henceforward will be referred to by this poster as mana or MP) is manipulated and concentrated in his/her Linker Core. Whether or not his/her soul resides in that part of the mage remains to be seen. It is a fandom idea that the soul is there btw, just to let you know.

But we know that mana doesn't always come from the heart. In fact, it often manifests at the limbs or extremities, or basically where the mage intends to create the spell from. This tells us that there is a system of delivery, a bit like the heart and the arteries and veins that carry our blood around. Assuming that evolutionary parallels exist for such a conduction system (the lymphatic system and the circulatory system are very similar being the base of this assumption), we can say that the Linker Core is the "heart" of the mana conduction system, with invisible, intangible, and very motile mana "circuits" running inside to the outside of the mage, since SB proves that magic can persist outside of the body, and I don't see mages ingesting anything fortified with "mana".

The Mana Circuit idea came from Fate/Stay Night and a few other places.

Now that we know how mana is moved within and outside of a person, let's move on.

You are assuming ALL of Nanoha's beam attacks are magical damage only :heh:

Recall how she trashed Precia's tin cans back in season 1.

And no, I don't think they can just make their magic vanish all of a sudden without external help. It's like in any RPG game, you can't just have your mana gone for no reason.

And in this case, a mage without mana is someone who practically run 100 miles and is now exhausted.Edit: The term magic damage itself is a confusing one, anwyay. Can't you think of a better one, Chaos?Actually, it was my idea, parallel'd from D&D's Non-lethal damage crossed with the "Mana Burn" spell from the Warcraft universe. Basically, what it means is "degree of exhaustion dealt to the mage by the amount of disruption made to the mana circuit as well as the overall reduction of the mage's mana pool." I admit magical damage was rather vague, so let's tighten it up: Non-lethal magic damage (assumed to be able to burn mana rather than flesh) and lethal magic damage (definitely burns flesh). Being able to switch in between the two to power one's spell is the magical equivalent to pulling one's punches, which also gives rise to Lethal physical damage and Non-lethal physical damage. There is too little to run on in canon to debate what kind of mana goes into non-lethal magical (NLM) damage, but we do know that it exhausts the mage's mana reserves, but leaves no bruises or scars, though it might burn or melt the barrier jacket or knight armor, which is magical.

This selective damage hints at what happens within the mage when hit by a non-lethal magical attack (NLMA), which will be covered now.

It was debated and settled earlier that an AMF does disrupt the mana circuit outside of the Linker Core. But we don't see Erio collapsing from it (The Nanohaverse OC Kha does, but that's because his Linker Core was different) for his mana store is within the dense Linker. Maybe there was a little discomfort as the extra-Core circuits lost power, but with adrenaline pumping, that small disturbance tends to be overlooked. Now let's say we shoot him with 1% of Nanoha's "rubber bullet" variation of Crossfire and we hit him at the spot where Teana was hit, smack at the heart. My expectation is he'll feel somewhat breathless, with some pain. Medically called "Phantom Pain", this pain arises as the body tells him that his magic circuit was under attack. We know that the NLMA attacks magical creations selectively over physical bodies, and so my link is here is that, like how NLMA destroys BJ/KA, it 'destroys' the magical circuit of a Mage.

Hit him with the full attack now. What happens? I expect Erio to feel so much pain that he passes out from it, his magic circuit is in total disarray, but his body remains visibly unharmed.

The "bruises" we see in the manga excerpt are really just dust from the collapsed training room. Contrast Teana after Nanoha's Crossfire attacks, and after the Signum punch (no sir ree, she HAD to prove she wasn't a submissive uke). Now that's a perfect example of the true effects of magical damage versus physical damage. :)

Seven Arcs should pay me to write their "Technology of Friendship" codex for the Nanohaverse. :D

A vampire mage, I had that idea for like ever... :DLook in the OC thread. You love my latest villian. A kamen loli with a big sword to boot. :D

@Teana's "hurt" arm:

OK I'm going to reference the earlier debate on BJ presence over immaterial bits. Earlier in this thread, we declared that BJ exist all over the mage as a very dense, next-to-skin, defence of summoned material and protective fielding. Summoned material for the visible bits, dense protective fielding for the "exposed skin" bits. That way Fate was able to survive getting whipped and thrown into concrete with only dust and BJ damage.

That spot on Teana's arm is a burnt field. Now I know something sound's wrong with that, but this is parallel'd from the human body: In areas where it is too dense to be removed, impurities remain there indefinitely, especially if its sterile the body would cover it in fibrous tissue and leave it there. My link here is that the "charred" dust from the burnt off field stuck to the defensive field in that same manner, to be removed when one "rebooted" the BJ, repaired/purified it, or dispelled it into sealed mode. No point risking exposure to excise remaining bit, for it still provides some protection as well.

EDIT: I thought of something that I forgot to cover here while replying to Chaos' later post, but by the time my com loaded the Edit box... I forgot what it was... Now if there's any comments and disputes to my above post or other posts, that should serve to trigger my memory. :heh:

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 08:02

@Kha
Once again,

"Hell, it's about time..." :p

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And people, can we all just forget that I've ever mentioned the word 'soul'? Apparently the world isn't ready for it yet... :heh:

"I am NOT a ***dam, I'm only human..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Kha

Out of curiosity...

...Why Erio? :heh:

Anyway, as you know my weakness, other than drama and angst, is long rants :heh: So in any case, can I assume I more or less hit it with the "magical Property" part :heh: judging from your speech?

(I'm a big man, I can handle the true...)

Kha

2007-06-02, 08:11

@Kha
Once again,

"Hell, it's about time..." :p

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And people, can we all just forget that I've ever mentioned the word 'soul'? Apparently the world isn't ready for it yet... :heh:

"I am NOT a ***dam, I'm only human..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~As the Sith Lord Darth Chaos, you're beyond-godlike rep precedes you see... :D

@Kha

Out of curiosity...

...Why Erio? :heh:He was the most convenient example of a mage sitting in an AMF and was used earlier to explain why BJ's don't disasseble Negima style in AMF. I just extended it to explain what happens to the mana circuit and the Linker Core as background knowledge for the explanation of the effects of magical damage.

Anyway, as you know my weakness, other than drama and angst, is long rants :heh: So in any case, can I assume I more or less hit it with the "magical Property" part :heh: judging from your speech?

(I'm a big man, I can handle the true...)Could you point me to ur explanation? My eyes hurt from reading all those posts at rapid speed, then typing as fast as I could. :p

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 08:17

As the Sith Lord Darth Chaos, you're beyond-godlike rep precedes you see... :D

The original quote was from House...

"God doesn't limp..."

Mine however, is longer and less cool :heh:

"God doesn't hide from a crappy company..."

Could you point me to ur explanation? My eyes hurt from reading all those posts at rapid speed, then typing as fast as I could. :p

Long story short...

Every spell is made from magic. But in each of these spell there are elements of Physical and Magical properties.

My theory is that magic attacks, damages only the "Magical Properties", hence leaving the physical portion unharmed.

Kha

2007-06-02, 08:27

Long story short...

Every spell is made from magic. But in each of these spell there are elements of Physical and Magical properties.

My theory is that magic attacks, damages only the "Magical Properties", hence leaving the physical portion unharmed.Yeap, that's a "mixed attack". There are some attacks that deal more physical damage than magical damage (Vita's flying balls come to mind) because of the physical bits in the spell.

But I believe magic can affect flesh. In fact, I've split the term "magical damage" into 2: Non-lethal, and lethal. "Lethal" attacks both flesh and magic circuit and I'm sure is used against targets meant for destruction (Gadgets for example); "Non-lethal" attacks just the magic circuit, leaving the mage tired and reeling from "phantom pain". This occurs by varying the type of mana powering the spell. How does that occur exactly is anyone's guess. Canon only shows that it happens, and there are parallels in science, but I shan't bring it in for now unless you guys really want me to Load Cartridge (Or Chain :D).

Is this short enuff? Cos I left all the justification out (which is what made the original so long. :p).

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 08:31

Yeap, that's a "mixed attack". There are some attacks that deal more physical damage than magical damage (Vita's flying balls come to mind) because of the physical bits in the spell.

But I believe magic can affect flesh. In fact, I've split the term "magical damage" into 2: Non-lethal, and lethal. "Lethal" attacks both flesh and magic circuit and I'm sure is used against targets meant for destruction (Gadgets for example); "Non-lethal" attacks just the magic circuit, leaving the mage tired and reeling from "phantom pain". This occurs by varying the type of mana powering the spell. How does that occur exactly is anyone's guess. Canon only shows that it happens, and there are parallels in science, but I shan't bring it in for now unless you guys really want me to Load Cartridge (Or Chain :D).

Is this short enuff? Cos I left all the justification out (which is what made the original so long. :p).

Yup, it's short enough for me :)

Cats

2007-06-02, 09:02

Kha where is all this magic circuit stuff comining from I never heard of it.
And no other series don't count :p or else we might end up discussing Ban Kai etc. :heh:

Also,
Using canon terminology, we know that a person's magical energy (henceforward will be referred to by this poster as mana or MP) is manipulated and concentrated in his/her Linker Core.

When was it explicitly mentioned.
I think it's in his device.
Devices were described as to give the mage the ability to manipulate his magic ability. (season 1)
No mage has manipulated magic without having a device on him.
I don't recall linker cores being described as anything more then supposed magic batteries.

And..
But we know that mana doesn't always come from the heart. In fact, it often manifests at the limbs or extremities, or basically where the mage intends to create the spell from. This tells us that there is a system of delivery, a bit like the heart and the arteries and veins that carry our blood around. Assuming that evolutionary parallels exist for such a conduction system (the lymphatic system and the circulatory system are very similar being the base of this assumption), we can say that the Linker Core is the "heart" of the mana conduction system, with invisible, intangible, and very motile mana "circuits" running inside to the outside of the mage, since SB proves that magic can persist outside of the body, and I don't see mages ingesting anything fortified with "mana".

Spells manifest either in the device or outside, presumably via the device since as season 2 shown, normal humans can become mages if they have a device.

There is no circuit or system.
It's all ye has mana thus yea can do spells.
I don't recall further development on this in the series.

The Mana Circuit idea came from Fate/Stay Night and a few other places.
Therefore its fanfiction and holds no grounds. Neither as evidence or as a counter.
Not until it is mentioned in the series.

Then there's this...
Actually, it was my idea, parallel'd from D&D's Non-lethal damage crossed with the "Mana Burn" spell from the Warcraft universe. Basically, what it means is "degree of exhaustion dealt to the mage by the amount of disruption made to the mana circuit as well as the overall reduction of the mage's mana pool." I admit magical damage was rather vague, so let's tighten it up: Non-lethal magic damage (assumed to be able to burn mana rather than flesh) and lethal magic damage (definitely burns flesh). Being able to switch in between the two to power one's spell is the magical equivalent to pulling one's punches, which also gives rise to Lethal physical damage and Non-lethal physical damage. There is too little to run on in canon to debate what kind of mana goes into non-lethal magical (NLM) damage, but we do know that it exhausts the mage's mana reserves, but leaves no bruises or scars, though it might burn or melt the barrier jacket or knight armor, which is magical.
How should I put this.
"Practice what you preach." :heh: :heh: :heh:

Namely,
Inaccurate terms create confusion. That is a problem that was heavily tackled in human anatomy, thus giving me multus trouble remembering everything.

Also I posted a pic above, according to your theory either Nanoha's cross-fire was 100% physical or it dealt 100% NO Damage. Since the barrier jacket is unscared.

LoweGear

2007-06-02, 09:08

[When was it explicitly mentioned.
I think it's in his device.
Devices were described as to give the mage the ability to manipulate his magic ability. (season 1)
No mage has manipulated magic without having a device on him.
I don't recall linker cores being described as anything more then supposed magic batteries.

I think you're forgetting Yuuno, Arf and Zafira, who are able to use magic without using devices.

Cats

2007-06-02, 09:09

LoweGear

2007-06-02, 09:12

But we are not talking about familiars. But mages.
Oh wait~ Damn the farat boy. :heh:

"Ferret-Boy" :p

Oh... If we're talking in that direction, then I forgot to mention Lindy, who is clearly a non-familiar that can use magic without a device. Certainly proof that magic can be cast without devices.

Kha

2007-06-02, 09:17

Kha where is all this magic circuit stuff comining from I never heard of it.
And no other series don't count :p or else we might end up discussing Ban Kai etc. :heh:Correct. It's just that when I mentioned how I modelled the mana conduction system after the circulatory and lymphatic system I was afraid people wouldn't understand and so I put it in as an analogy. Should've made it clearer, now that you've pointed it out.

When was it explicitly mentioned.
I think it's in his device.
Devices were described as to give the mage the ability to manipulate his magic ability. (season 1)
No mage has manipulated magic without having a device on him.
I don't recall linker cores being described as anything more then supposed magic batteries.

And..

Spells manifest either in the device or outside, presumably via the device since as season 2 shown, normal humans can become mages if they have a device.

There is no circuit or system.
It's all ye has mana thus yea can do spells.
I don't recall further development on this in the series.This was proposed earlier in the thread, as we discussed how devices worked. But Yuuno, Zafira and Arf's magic attacks made us re-think it, and assign it to the Linker Core instead. I know Zafira and Arf are bad examples in this case, but then Yuuno was a full whole-blooded mage w/o a Device for most of the Nanohaverse and yet he could sling chains, heal people and put up barriers capable to resisting cartridge powered attacks for a significant amount of time. And also, the LC is also a place where spells are stored (at least the biological copy, from YnS' ability to use spells of the other mages based on their LC data.)

But I don't think Hayate can be considered a "normal human" AKA Neutral (fandom term). After all, it was mentioned that the YnS targeted individuals of high magic potential. The Book saw something in her.

Therefore its fanfiction and holds no grounds. Neither as evidence or as a counter.
Not until it is mentioned in the series.

Once again, it was an analogy to facilitate understanding. The misunderstanding was my bad.

Kha

2007-06-02, 09:20

But we are not talking about familiars. But mages.
Oh wait~ Damn the farat boy. :heh:

-----
Just rememebered Yuuno's an alien so he dosn't count. :p
And Yuuno did tell Nanoha that she can comunicate with him as long as she has raging heart so obviously she can't control her magic on her own. My guess is Yuuno can't either but he has some artifacts with him. :)Point 1: When was it mentioned he was an Alien?

Point 2: When was it mentioned that he had some artefacts with him? Even in the sound stage, that pouch he had with him only had "a few photographs".

Plz don't fall into the hole you just warned me out of. :heh:

After Lowe's post: I think Cats' rebuttal might be that Lindy is a fairy, which I cannot rebutt properly cos she was a fairy in Toraha, and she still has those wings. But in Nanohaverse terms, we have several examples of people without Devices, casting magic, but its nothing compared to the ID users cos the ID assists in spellcasting by making the spell calculations easier (as discussed earlier).

Cats

2007-06-02, 09:23

*lol*
Thanks for the heads up~ :heh:

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 09:24

-----
Just rememebered Yuuno's an alien so he dosn't count. :p

Give it up, he's Mid-Childan :p

And Yuuno did tell Nanoha that she can comunicate with him as long as she has raging heart so obviously she can't control her magic on her own. My guess is Yuuno can't either but he has some artifacts with him. :)

Give it up, Yuuno was a much more skilled and experienced mage than Nanoha at that time :p

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT:

Anyway, wasn't it settle a long time ago?

Casting a spell is like doing math, anybody with enough knowledge could do it.

A device is like a calculator, it speeds up the process.

But in the end, it's still up to the mage.

(And yes, there are different types of 'calculators'...)

And it is possible to do math without a calculator...

Cats

2007-06-02, 09:31

Give it up, he's Mid-Childan :p
No actually I wasn't completely off in that respect,
While it's true that there might be no significance, Mr Supreme Commander in season 2 did say something like: "I too found a traveler from another world." hence there is a distinction between worlds so Yuuno is, at least just technically, a alien.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-06-02, 09:35

No actually I wasn't completely off in that respect,
While it's true that there might be no significance, Mr Supreme Commander in season 2 did say something like: "I too found a traveler from another world." hence there is a distinction between worlds so Yuuno is, at least just technically, a alien.

An alien to Nanoha's world, but not an Alien to magic :)

Give it up :p

EDIT:

Wait... This just sink in...

KERO-CHAN?! :twitch:

Cats

2007-06-02, 09:51

I already said I gave up on it :p
I only felt like adding some evidence to the Yuuno = Alien thing. Not like it matters much to the discussion. :D
KERO-CHAN?! :twitch:
What?! :uhoh:

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 09:59

I already said I gave up on it :p
I only felt like adding some evidence to the Yuuno = Alien thing. Not like it matters much to the discussion. :D

What?! :uhoh:

You were calling Keroko Kero-chan a few posts back.:heh:

Now that makes Chaos, Kha and Keroko the three forum members who were addressed with -chan.

Cats

2007-06-02, 10:01

Aero-chan I still don't get what's the point.

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 10:11

Aero-chan I still don't get what's the point.

It's a little awkward addressing males with the suffix, -chan. And I think Chaos was pretty traumatized by Erio, another forum member calling him that.:heh:

EDIT: W-wait, who's Aero-chan? A and K are pretty much on opposite sides of the keyboard. That can't possibly be me can it?:uhoh:

Kha

2007-06-02, 10:13

You were calling Keroko Kero-chan a few posts back.:heh:

Now that makes Chaos, Kha and Keroko the three forum memberswho were addressed with -chan.UH... No. Kero-chan was a char from CCS, and was the Cardcaptor's tsukaima...

But honestly Chaos, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?! :twitch:

raidou

2007-06-02, 10:31

You were calling Keroko Kero-chan a few posts back.

Now that makes Chaos, Kha and Keroko the three forum memberswho were addressed with -chan.......wait , so you saying someone addressed Kha with '-chan' before ?
I loled at the sound of that although the spelling is not right :heh:

Cats

2007-06-02, 10:37

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 10:43

Aaron ~ I'm just playing with you. :heh:

Duly noted, Cats-san.:heh:
_______
Back on topic, why don't familiars or Yuuno materialise weapons or barrier-vests. Or is Yuuno's ferret-form his barier defence.
(well he does look invincible when munching Ayu's fish-biscuit food)

And back in season 1 he when Nanoha and Fate blew the gem ~ around episode 6 I think.
The resulting explosion didn't seem to have any effect on Yuuno, even though he was basically naked.

I'm going ahead with the assumption that he has a BJ that is worn and not henshined into using devices. TSAB also have a gamut of mages that simply wears their BJ's.

All in all, I'm not too sure. But as far as I know, the presence of a Barrier Jacket is not dependent upon a device, unless the variants Nanoha and some others are taken into consideration.

raidou

2007-06-02, 10:52

Aaron ~ I'm just playing with you. :heh:
_______
Back on topic, why don't familiars or Yuuno materialise weapons or barrier-vests. Or is Yuuno's ferret-form his barier defence.
(well he does look invincible when munching Ayu's fish-biscuit food)

And back in season 1 he when Nanoha and Fate blew the gem ~ around episode 6 I think.
The resulting explosion didn't seem to have any effect on Yuuno, even though he was basically naked.

Yuuno is able to cast spell in his ferret form so I assumed that he might be able to switch into his BJ while in ferret form.

During that explosion it could be his BJ or he might casted barrier just not shown.Also i dont think device is really connected to the presence of BJ since Fate was wearing her BJ a few times in season 1 with Bardiche in mode form (or nanoha in this season)

Keroko

2007-06-02, 10:53

Wait... This just sink in...

KERO-CHAN?! :twitch:

Yes... imagine my surprise when I saw this when I came back from the gym. :twitch:

Speaking of which, dammit, Kha! Work on your timing! Starting to post just before I head to the gym... *grumble grumble*

Anyhoo, back to Chaos.

Three possible answers and two relative questions. You may take your pick.:D

I'll handle them all, of course.

I was under the impression that the clashing S-ranked attacks far surpassed the pre-set parameters of the training room and caused a major breakdown in the equipment, which leads to explosion.:confused:

Should that matter? If we follow your logic, they were using 'non-physical' attacks, which according to you, does not harm physical objects. Obviously, this wasn't so.

When did they say that physical damage are prohibited in the match? Hayate said non-lethal and not non-physical. Signum, Vita and the others wouldn't fit in, otherwise.

I thought using non-physical attacks were easier then pulling punches? Guess its easier to pull punches after all.

It was just a case of the producers not thinking as far ahead as us.:heh:

Or we're turning a fly into an ellephant. :heh:

We could always bring up the issue of why did the water gushed upward when Nanoha fired a purely magic damage Starlight Breaker on Fate during S1?

Cause it delivered physical damage?

Why wasn't there a scratch on Uminari City after Reinforce 1 fired off her Starlight Breaker?

So, in laymens terms, the only problem rests with the Starlight Breaker that Reinforce 1 fired, yes? Since all the other ones fired by Nanoha do seem to do physical damage (The wacky thing is that there still is a crapload of debris flying around even though all the buildings keep standing. God I hate the animators for doing that >_<).

Possible explanation? The barrier that te Lieze twins ut up witheld any damage from occuring. After the starlight breaker was fired, that field was destroyed, leaving only Reinforce's field, and the city was prone to damage.

Actually, it was my idea, parallel'd from D&D's Non-lethal damage crossed with the "Mana Burn" spell from the Warcraft universe. Basically, what it means is "degree of exhaustion dealt to the mage by the amount of disruption made to the mana circuit as well as the overall reduction of the mage's mana pool." I admit magical damage was rather vague, so let's tighten it up: Non-lethal magic damage (assumed to be able to burn mana rather than flesh) and lethal magic damage (definitely burns flesh). Being able to switch in between the two to power one's spell is the magical equivalent to pulling one's punches, which also gives rise to Lethal physical damage and Non-lethal physical damage. There is too little to run on in canon to debate what kind of mana goes into non-lethal magical (NLM) damage, but we do know that it exhausts the mage's mana reserves, but leaves no bruises or scars, though it might burn or melt the barrier jacket or knight armor, which is magical.

This selective damage hints at what happens within the mage when hit by a non-lethal magical attack (NLMA), which will be covered now.

It was debated and settled earlier that an AMF does disrupt the mana circuit outside of the Linker Core. But we don't see Erio collapsing from it (The Nanohaverse OC Kha does, but that's because his Linker Core was different) for his mana store is within the dense Linker. Maybe there was a little discomfort as the extra-Core circuits lost power, but with adrenaline pumping, that small disturbance tends to be overlooked. Now let's say we shoot him with 1% of Nanoha's "rubber bullet" variation of Crossfire and we hit him at the spot where Teana was hit, smack at the heart. My expectation is he'll feel somewhat breathless, with some pain. Medically called "Phantom Pain", this pain arises as the body tells him that his magic circuit was under attack. We know that the NLMA attacks magical creations selectively over physical bodies, and so my link is here is that, like how NLMA destroys BJ/KA, it 'destroys' the magical circuit of a Mage.

Hit him with the full attack now. What happens? I expect Erio to feel so much pain that he passes out from it, his magic circuit is in total disarray, but his body remains visibly unharmed.

I prefer to call it 'non-physical' rather then 'non-lethal', as I can deliver a hefty amount of non-lethal damage on people using just two hands, but they'll definetely feel it afterwards. See it, too.

But why bother with the non-physical damage at all (which is hardly suported by canon) instead of the barrier jacket protection theory I posted here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=974163&postcount=196) which is A: a lot more suported by canon and B: explains most of the who's and why's.

The "bruises" we see in the manga excerpt are really just dust from the collapsed training room. Contrast Teana after Nanoha's Crossfire attacks, and after the Signum punch (no sir ree, she HAD to prove she wasn't a submissive uke). Now that's a perfect example of the true effects of magical damage versus physical damage. :)

So how come the training room collapsed at all when the damage was supposed to be affecting only the mana? It has to have affected physical material, otherwise the training room wouldn't have collapsed. If it can break metal, it can hurt skin.

Aaron008R

2007-06-02, 11:05

Yes... imagine my surprise when I saw this when I came back from the gym. :twitch:

Speaking of which, dammit, Kha! Work on your timing! Starting to post just before I head to the gym... *grumble grumble*

Anyhoo, back to Chaos.

I'll handle them all, of course.

Why, thank you.

Should that matter? If we follow your logic, they were using 'non-physical' attacks, which according to you, does not harm physical objects. Obviously, this wasn't so.
So how come the training room collapsed at all when the damage was supposed to be affecting only the mana? It has to have affected physical material, otherwise the training room wouldn't have collapsed. If it can break metal, it can hurt skin.

I meant that there's a pre-set parameters for the barrier around the interior of the training facility in order to keep both physical and magical damage strictly inside.

I thought using non-physical attacks were easier then pulling punches? Guess its easier to pull punches after all.

Yeah.:heh: I guess it was just a slip of your judgment that you suddenly said that physical attacks were forbidden.

Or we're turning a fly into an ellephant. :heh:

Nice analogy.:D

Cause it delivered physical damage?

I blame the animators for including the EPICness factor of the attack.:heh:

So, in laymens terms, the only problem rests with the Starlight Breaker that Reinforce 1 fired, yes? Since all the other ones fired by Nanoha do seem to do physical damage (The wacky thing is that there still is a crapload of debris flying around even though all the buildings keep standing. God I hate the animators for doing that >_<).

I'm betting that a producer would either be speechless or laughing his/her ass off at how we're trying to figure out their machinations.:heh:

But why bother with the non-physical damage at all (which is hardly suported by canon) instead of the barrier jacket protection theory I posted here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=974163&postcount=196) which is A: a lot more suported by canon and B: explains most of the who's and why's.

It's much more complicated but fun if we include BOTH.:D