[Manga] How did Itachi kill the Uchiha clan?

[MysticNinjaJay]

I've pondered this for awhile.

We have never actually seen the actual techniques Itachi used to kill his clan.

Even in Sasuke's Tsukiyomi presentation we are shown images of Uchiha being slain by weapons thrown from a seemingly invisible source.

Some of the Uchiha attempt to fight back and are just blown away.

When Sasuke comes to the village there are dead bodies strewn across the ground with weapons lodged into their bodies, meaning Itachi did use them.

And we know that ninjutsu techniques are often complemented by kill blows with simple ninja weapons.

Itachi appears to have killed his parents with a Katana. How he subdued him to be placed in that position is unclear.

Did he use super speed to simply manuever himself through out the neighborhood and kill everyone with weapons?

Will we ever see his actions being commited from his perspective.

This is an area I think Kishimoto should really explore once we learn more about Itachi as a character.

[DrunkManCrying]

I don't think he used any super speed... I think it was a case of super cutting for pacings sake.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Just like the way Sasuke defeated the 1000 shinobi, I think it's one of those things we have to take "as is" and that the murder will never be shown in full detail. The flashbacks show Uchiha members trying to attack, and Sasuke's parents apparently willingly accepting death, but even this was shown through Tsukuyomi and therefore Itachi himself controlled what Sasuke saw. Most likely, we'll never know exactly how Itachi accomplished what he did.

[Rurik]

If I’m not mistaken the part were you see the bunch on Ninja running towards Itachi and those Ninja been pushed back was an Anime filler.

Seen How Itachi Handle Oro without MS and Basically without effort and 2 Years younger from the massacre, Genius such as Itachi growth are exponential, so if Itachi could handle Oro like that at 11, imagine 2 Years later, so, I wont be surprise it was the same against the Uchiha, even despite the Uchiha having also the Sharingan.

And Im almost sure I have seen this topic been discussed before, not sure if it was a thread created for this purpose.

[MysticNinjaJay]

If I’m not mistaken the part were you see the bunch on Ninja running towards Itachi and those Ninja been pushed back was an Anime filler.

I did think that was lame. I'll have to go back to the manga to check.

Seen How Itachi Handle Oro without MS and Basically without effort and 2 Years younger from the massacre, Genius such as Itachi growth are exponential, so if Itachi could handle Oro like that at 11, imagine 2 Years later, so, I wont be surprise it was the same against the Uchiha, even despite the Uchiha having also the Sharingan.

It is not surprising to me that he did it, the question is how.

Human bodies are fragile compared to the destructive power Narutoverse ninja wield killing alot of people is no big deal, it is simply a matter of method.

Yondaime could kill a legion of ninja with a special jutsu that causes no destruction to the enviroment.

He beat Oro but defeating one comparably strong Ninja with a genjutsu is a different task to killing many people at one time, even if you are much stronger than them.


And Im almost sure I have seen this topic been discussed before, not sure if it was a thread created for this purpose.

It can't be helped. I have not seen one recently at the least.

[Hentai Guy]

Because Itachi is t3h ub3r l33t...that's about it, and as far as you really need to go. I think it's all been said already here.

[Rurik]

He beat Oro but defeating one comparably strong Ninja with a genjutsu is a different task to killing many people at one time, even if you are much stronger than them.

Itachi Doing that only reminds me of what Sasuke did, defeating a lot of Shinobies without getting a scratch.

I could just guess this could had been done with: Great speed, Sharingan and an excellent fighting skill, But, I doubt Itachi fought the Entire Uchiha Clan at the Same time.

[SpiRo]

With katana, kunai, shurikens hmm .. there is katon .. little genjutsu and MS .. maybe someone with bare hands

[Yogi]

He probably used some sort of Bunshin technique. He needed to kill everyone quickly before someone can sound the alarm or run away. Bunshins, especially Kage Bunshin, act as a force multiplier. The stronger the "base" ninja, the stronger the Bunshin technique is. With Itachi as strong as he is, even a Kage Bunshin that dissolves after one hit can easily take down many weaker ninja. Creating a few of them and have them converge on the Uchiha compound from various directions will enable him to kill a large number of ninja quickly while preventing any of them from escaping.

[Rurik]

But how many functional Kage Bushin could Itachi do (having in mind he used MS)? At best 2 i'll say, And that number it is still low against a Clan.

[Asianknight82]

I don't think at that point, Itachi was the master of Shadow Clones as he is now.

[Yogi]

Well a half-dead Kakashi could produce a dozen in the Zabuza arc. Naruto has arund 2x Kakashi's chakra and he can make hundreds if he has to. Itachi only used Taukiyomi once in attacking the clan, so he probably could have made a few dozen.

The key here is speed. He needs to kill everyone quickly before someone sounds the alarm, escapes, or uses a flashy jutsu that attracts attention. He can't use any area of effect jutsus himself because that will also attract attention. Genjutsu is possible, but Taijutsu would be the ideal choice, especially since it's something the Sharingan has trouble again. However, there's no way he can kill everyone quickly enough with just Taijutsu, hence he needs the bunshin to kill large amounts of ninja quickly and silently. It'll be a drain on his chakra, but there's really no easy way to kill an entire clan.

[Rahan]

Obviously, he used "A Thousand Years of Pain" on all of them. (even the fat aunt) The weapons were just for show.

And no either he isn't the one who killed them and is a good guy in disguise (in which case, Sasuke will really turn the main villain after they clash) and we'll see who did it (and how) or we won't see more of that scene. (in the manga, that is. The anime will be a flashback tunnel)

[reloaded]

Itachi killing off his whole clan does seem stupid but its one of those things you just get made to accept, sasuke killed 1000 without a scratch take into account he has blinding speed but Itachi taking out a full clan of sharingan users without a scratch is a little different. He must have used Kage Bushin and a simultaneous kunai attack because him killing off the clan members one by one would surely attract attention.

[Rurik]

Well a half-dead Kakashi could produce a dozen in the Zabuza arc. Naruto has arund 2x Kakashi's chakra and he can make hundreds if he has to. Itachi only used Taukiyomi once in attacking the clan, so he probably could have made a few dozen.

Kakashi could make that amount because those KB were not functional, those KB could not even sustain themselves for long, Kakashi himself stated that he can't maintain that Jutsu for Long. And Naruto has at least twice as much as Kakashi, but he has an almost unlimited source feed from Kyuby. Basically the only people than can create a lot of Kage Bushins, are those same that have a huge Chakra capacity, like the Sanin or Naruto.


The key here is speed. He needs to kill everyone quickly before someone sounds the alarm, escapes, or uses a flashy jutsu that attracts attention. He can't use any area of effect jutsus himself because that will also attract attention. Genjutsu is possible, but Taijutsu would be the ideal choice, especially since it's something the Sharingan has trouble again. However, there's no way he can kill everyone quickly enough with just Taijutsu, hence he needs the bunshin to kill large amounts of ninja quickly and silently. It'll be a drain on his chakra, but there's really no easy way to kill an entire clan.



Killing everybody in matter of minutes without letting anyone escape and without the assistance of KB shouldn’t be something is not that hard to believe, if you are really fast and taking in consideration that The Uchihas were the police force, (So I don’t see them running, but fighting), and those who weren’t Real Shinobies, like kids, could not run fast enough to escape, for example see how Sasuke run away from Itachi and when he looks in front, Itachi is there.

Besides, Itachi with a much bigger Chakra source showed that in a small fight he could use just one Kage Bushin if he also plans to use the MS.

Personally I don’t think he did used Kage Bushin, because more than 2 would have been to much for him to do a MS later and on top of that fight against shinoby.

[2nr]

the real question is, why the hell were the rest of the uchiha's so weak..
sure, they don't have MS but they still got sharingan don't they? it's not like itachi used MS on all of them, otherwise he would be really weak..
Uchiha's are suppose to be natural geniuses and shit, even a person who's not an uchiha, with 1 sharingan (kakashi) can hold his own for a while

[MysticNinjaJay]

Itachi Doing that only reminds me of what Sasuke did, defeating a lot of Shinobies without getting a scratch.

I could just guess this could had been done with: Great speed, Sharingan and an excellent fighting skill, But, I doubt Itachi fought the Entire Uchiha Clan at the Same time.




Itachi killing off his whole clan does seem stupid but its one of those things you just get made to accept, sasuke killed 1000 without a scratch take into account he has blinding speed but Itachi taking out a full clan of sharingan users without a scratch is a little different. He must have used Kage Bushin and a simultaneous kunai attack because him killing off the clan members one by one would surely attract attention.

What Reloaded in bold is what I agree with on this point.

Granted that the "Uchiha clan" consisted of non-sharingan users, children, house wives and elderly people among the talented, but this was the "genius ninja clan" which by definition had an above average amount of talent and no doubt many Sharingan users.

I have no problem with the idea that Itachi was so much more powerful than a normal Uchiha that he could kill them all.

It's just about method.

Sasuke killed several nameless ninja who on average probably knew basic ninjutsu.

I think in the Narutoverse only a minority of ninja have the type of talent we see among the main and supporting characters. I don't think the "Ninja Army" consisted of genius ninjas with advanced bloodlines and creative elite Jounin level jutsu. Just medicocre ninja.

I doubt that the average Uchiha copied over 1000 jutsu like Kakashi. They were just above average in skill with a few prodigies on Kakashi's level.


We may never see how Itachi really killed the clan, but based on what we know about his skills he does have lighting quick reflexes.

If he didn't kill them with Kagebunshin I would guess that he used a mix of genjutsu and taijutsu to paralyze many of them at once with hypnosis, the way he appeared to do with Sasuke and then kill them with basic ninja weapons and destructive ninjutsu.

Only a few of them would have a chance to retaliate and they would be dealt with in the same way he defeated those 3 Uchiha jounin.

I think the idea that we should just "accept" his ability to do this is uncreative on Kishimoto's part.


We know how Yondaime killed so many people at once. I can imagine that Sasori unleashed his puppets on entire countries to wage war on them.

But Itachi's massacre of a genius clan, even if he is a prodigy among geniuses is odd especially since he did it effortlessly in one night.

[Hyuuga Hitomi]

Not sure about the other Uchichas, but Kakashi is a genius in his own right without sharingan.

I guess the clan was so surprised that one of their own was killing everyone that they weren't too focused?...

[EvolutionXI]

We were shown that he's good at throwing multiple kunais at targets in one of sasuke's flashbacks, so maybe he killed a lot just like that. Then as others are standing there like "omg, wtf are you doing?" he could run up and stab them or whatever. And it's not like all uchiha necessarily had sharingan, let alone a 3 dot (forgot what they're called) one. He could've also used genjutsu to distract some also as he killed others.

[ri0]

Not sure about the other Uchichas, but Kakashi is a genius in his own right without sharingan.

I guess the clan was so surprised that one of their own was killing everyone that they weren't too focused?...

They suspected him a while ago... I don't think that they would have been surprised.

[Rurik]

[..].

Im not saying that defeating a army of no names nnja should be the same as defeating Uchihas, I just said it reminded me.

And less try to use logic here, you talk about something important here, the 3 Jounin he beat top the ground in a blink of an eye.

How many Uchiha Jounin with SHaringan do you think Uchiha Clan Had??? I will say not that much, or how many UChihas with Sharingan were there? Ill say less than Half of the Uchiha population, if Sharingan is a trait rare amongst the UChiha, then is has to be an average bellow 1 in each two people.

And Also bare i mind that When Itachi did that to those 3 Jounin he was still 11, meaning 2 year passed, only getting stronger and faster that he was before, So let say the Police force had some 60 Uchihas were only 20 HAd sharingan and only 8 of them where Jounin, how hard do you think for Itachi after witnessing what he could do to 3 Jounin 2 years before? ( think about those numbers, there are not real, but I tried to make a scale based on the Jouni ratio and how many Uchiha could had Sharingan)

Ill say, That having this in mind I will not be surprised that Itachi only used Shurikens and Kunais to Kill them all, and thats the point. put him on a level which make its basically a monster.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Im not saying that defeating a army of no names nnja should be the same as defeating Uchihas, I just said it reminded me.

And less try to use logic here, you talk about something important here, the 3 Jounin he beat top the ground in a blink of an eye.

How many Uchiha Jounin with SHaringan do you think Uchiha Clan Had??? I will say not that much, or how many UChihas with Sharingan were there? Ill say less than Half of the Uchiha population, if Sharingan is a trait rare amongst the UChiha, then is has to be an average bellow 1 in each two people.

It is likely that Sharingan is most common among the elite.

With that in mind anywhere from 1/3 to all Jounin Uchiha in the police force could have Sharingan.

All 3 of those Jounin Itachi fought had it. Perhaps less than half of Uchiha overall had it but I'd wager there were plenty of Sharingan users killed in the massacre.

Since Itachi ambushed the village, I do agree that he likely did not have to use too many high level ninjutsu against the clan.

[tkdtiger]

He killed them quick and painlessly lol

[Yogi]

Kakashi could make that amount because those KB were not functional, those KB could not even sustain themselves for long, Kakashi himself stated that he can't maintain that Jutsu for Long. And Naruto has at least twice as much as Kakashi, but he has an almost unlimited source feed from Kyuby. Basically the only people than can create a lot of Kage Bushins, are those same that have a huge Chakra capacity, like the Sanin or Naruto.First, Kakashi's Bunshin were non-functional because Kakashi himself was non-functional and on his last legs. Second, Naruto has consistently produced massive amounts of Kage-Bunshin without drawing upon Kyuubi.
Killing everybody in matter of minutes without letting anyone escape and without the assistance of KB shouldn’t be something is not that hard to believe, if you are really fast and taking in consideration that The Uchihas were the police force, (So I don’t see them running, but fighting), and those who weren’t Real Shinobies, like kids, could not run fast enough to escape, for example see how Sasuke run away from Itachi and when he looks in front, Itachi is there.Uh . . .
"shouldn’t be something is not that hard to believe" Huh? I think you mean it's not something hard to believe.

It's not just a matter of defeating them, it's defeating them fast enough before they can use any jutsu that would attract attention. That is hard to do alone against many opponents, not all of which will fight you. There has to be some Genin among the Uchiha as well, younger ninja who might not fight.

In addition, the other Uchiha KNOW how strong Itachi is. When facing someone that powerful, calling for backup would be the smart thing to do.

Even if it is likely that all the people who were capable of escaping would fight him instead of escaping, it still entails a high element of risk. If one person decides to run instead of fighting, one explosive tag is accidentally activated, or someone who he can't defeat within seconds (say, his father) was taking a stroll at that time, or some powerful ninja arrives for tea and biscuits, his plan goes to hell.

However, surrounding the place with Kage Bunshin gives him insurance. If people decide to run, there's nowhere to run to and no way to get help. It means killing people faster which means less time for something to go wrong. It will also enable him to intercept anyone coming into the area.
Besides, Itachi with a much bigger Chakra source showed that in a small fight he could use just one Kage Bushin if he also plans to use the MS.He used MS three times before he ran out of power. He only used it once against Sasuke.

[MysticNinjaJay]

As far as Kagebunshin is concerned, as far as we have seen Naruto is the only one who can do a mass replication and use them effectively.

Apparently the Tajuu version is a kinjutsu from the hidden scroll?

People keep saying that I don't remember that being the case officially.

We know Itachi uses Kagebunshin and I do think it is rationale that if he could use many at once he would do so to cover more ground and surround the Uchiha neighborhood.

Or perhaps he really is just that damn fast and can zip through the streets slaying people indoors and outside with weapons and fatal jutsu. :heh:

[Yogi]

If Itachi is really that powerful, he could have used lesser Bunshin (Water Bunshin etc.) to surround the area and deal with any people trying to escape and the lesser threats while he concentrated on the main ones personally. Water Bunshin are a bit too weak though, so he might have used a stronger variant.

The other option is that he used VERY powerful Genjutsu to silently take out groups of people without the rest noticing. However, it would have to be pretty powerful, and the only Genjutsu we've seen that could do that is the Tsukiyomi, though Itachi implied that other powerful Genjutsu could also work.

Another remote possibility is that he copied the Kagemane and used that in conjunction with Bunshin to immobilize and take out large groups of opponents at a time. However, that doesn't seem to be his fighting style.

[Rurik]

Jay, I still think, even amongst the Elite, or maybe the elite represented the small group, I say that the percentage of Uchiha with Sharingan should had been around 30% for Sasuke to be making such a comment. But I agree that for those Jounnin ranks everyone could have had Sharingan, but still I don't think the uchiha clan had more than 15 JOunnin in their side.

Also, It was Taju Kage Bushin that was on the scroll, this is from the Databook.
First, Kakashi's Bunshin were non-functional because Kakashi himself was non-functional and on his last legs. Second, Naruto has consistently produced massive amounts of Kage-Bunshin without drawing upon Kyuubi.

It was because Kakshi was almost out of Chakra, not because he was Injured or something like that, as in fact Zabuza only injured his Hand. and NAruto have create a lot of Clones using his Resource but still, he has his huge stamina pool and secondary source that compensate him to maintaining the KB long enough.

Uh . . .
"shouldn’t be something is not that hard to believe" Huh? I think you mean it's not something hard to believe. Sorry, that was it as you said.

It's not just a matter of defeating them, it's defeating them fast enough before they can use any jutsu that would attract attention. That is hard to do alone against many opponents, not all of which will fight you. There has to be some Genin among the Uchiha as well, younger ninja who might not fight.

Of course, but thats should be the point, my original observation was that he didn't kill them all at once, maybe he fought them in a manner of groups, doing in a silent way so other groups would not be able to detect this.

Doing it like an all for one fight seems to be very hard to do without raising noise, but that could be a possibility taking the 3 Uchiha Jounnin as example.

In addition, the other Uchiha KNOW how strong Itachi is. When facing someone that powerful, calling for backup would be the smart thing to do.

Actually, nobody knew exactly how strong Itachi was at that time.

Even if it is likely that all the people who were capable of escaping would fight him instead of escaping, it still entails a high element of risk. If one person decides to run instead of fighting, one explosive tag is accidentally activated, or someone who he can't defeat within seconds (say, his father) was taking a stroll at that time, or some powerful ninja arrives for tea and biscuits, his plan goes to hell.
Which lead me to the point of confrontation against small groups and not the whole Bunch.

but your last option isn't one actually, by that time the only powerful Shinoby that could had ruined his plan could had been SAndaime, key word, Could.

However, surrounding the place with Kage Bunshin gives him insurance. If people decide to run, there's nowhere to run to and no way to get help. It means killing people faster which means less time for something to go wrong. It will also enable him to intercept anyone coming into the area.

I get your point, but I have the feeling he didn't do that, it doesn't seems Itachi kind of Fighting style, I think more about using genjutsus and fast paced attacks..

He used MS three times before he ran out of power. He only used it once against Sasuke.

After he retreated from Gai, he was already weary, as noted by Kakashi.

If Itachi is really that powerful, he could have used lesser Bunshin (Water Bunshin etc.) to surround the area and deal with any people trying to escape and the lesser threats while he concentrated on the main ones personally. Water Bunshin are a bit too weak though, so he might have used a stronger variant.

The other option is that he used VERY powerful Genjutsu to silently take out groups of people without the rest noticing. However, it would have to be pretty powerful, and the only Genjutsu we've seen that could do that is the Tsukiyomi, though Itachi implied that other powerful Genjutsu could also work.

Another remote possibility is that he copied the Kagemane and used that in conjunction with Bunshin to immobilize and take out large groups of opponents at a time. However, that doesn't seem to be his fighting style.

If I would had to pick one, I pick the second option as the most possible.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Jay, I still think, even amongst the Elite, or maybe the elite represented the small group, I say that the percentage of Uchiha with Sharingan should had been around 30% for Sasuke to be making such a comment. But I agree that for those Jounnin ranks everyone could have had Sharingan, but still I don't think the uchiha clan had more than 15 JOunnin in their side.

The reason our beliefs on this matter are so speculative is for one thing we don't even know how big these "clans" are.

How many families are in the Uchiha clan? How many members altogether?

As far as how many Uchiha had the Sharingan is concerned, Sasuke did say a select few which at best indicates that Sharingan users are the minority and you are not guaranteed to inherit Sharingan just by having the Uchiha bloodline.

When Kakashi encountered Itachi he stated that he used to see "eyes" like his quite often, obviously before the clan was slaughtered meaning the number of Sharingan users were atleast numerous.

Obito, who was not a gifted ninja, awakened his Sharingan at the same age as Sasuke. If Sasuke's battle with Haku is anything to go by Sharingan needs a stimulus to become activated.

If all three Jounin who approached Itachi had Sharingan, he had it, his father had it (Sasuke expressed confidence when telling their father he would inherit it) then I do think the elite are even more likely to inherit it.

To use hypothetical math again let's suppose that the Uchiha clan consists of 200 members.

Of those 200 let's say that 20% have Sharingan (i.e. 2 out of 10 which fits Sasuke's statement of a "select few").

That would mean that there were 40 Sharingan wiedling Uchiha before the clan was slaughtered which would fit Kakashi's statement that he saw eyes like that "quite often".

Of those 40 I'd wager that half of them were in the police force (let's not forget that the Uchiha only make up part of the police force. They are not its sole members, only its founders and the captain happens to be an Uchiha).

Itachi his father and the 3 Jounin he owned make 5 ninja out of those 40 and Shisui, who was killed prior to the masscare, makes 6 (He had quite the reputation, he was almost surely a Sharingan user).


That leaves us with 34 extra, unknown Sharingan users and maybe around 20 in the police force that were quite skilled (the other 14 likely being Chunnin and Jounin within Konoha's ordinary ninja teams).

Itachi may well have been the only Uchiha/Sharingan user in ANBU (unless Shisui, his best friend who was also ordered to monitor him, was also a member).


All and all, Kakashi's statement alone means that there were several Sharingan users killed in the massacre.


Also, It was Taju Kage Bushin that was on the scroll, this is from the Databook.

Yeah, I have yet to read the Databook, I'll have to get a hold of it sometime. :heh:

[Sabaku Kyu]

That depends on how you interpret Kakashi's comment. He served in ANBU, which works closely with the Konoha Police Force if I understand right. Him saying that he "once saw eyes like that quite often" might not mean that the Uchiha were particularly numerous, just that the ones he came across were usually members of the police force who had Sharingan.

[MysticNinjaJay]

That depends on how you interpret Kakashi's comment. He served in ANBU, which works closely with the Konoha Police Force if I understand right. Him saying that he "once saw eyes like that quite often" might not mean that the Uchiha were particularly numerous, just that the ones he came across were usually members of the police force who had Sharingan.

The ANBU serve directly under the Hokage.

I don't think they work closely with the police force. The reason being is because Itachi's father was trying to use his position in ANBU to expand their influence on the village and the Jounin who approached Itachi asked him to give Shisui's suicide note to his superiors indicating that they are not in a position to do it themselves.

They did say that they have "other connections" in ANBU, it is Konoha village after all, but these are different organizations.

It's like the local police force and the FBI. They may colloborate with each other on cases but there is a chain of command and information varies up the intelligence ladder.

I'm sure that the Uchiha Kakashi did see were most often part of the police force and likely exclusively Sharingan users.

We know he is not talking about Obito because he only had his Sharingan briefly before his death.

[Yogi]

It was because Kakshi was almost out of Chakra, not because he was Injured or something like that, as in fact Zabuza only injured his Hand. and NAruto have create a lot of Clones using his Resource but still, he has his huge stamina pool and secondary source that compensate him to maintaining the KB long enough.So the point is that a battered tired Kakashi can't really be compared to a fresh Itachi.
Of course, but thats should be the point, my original observation was that he didn't kill them all at once, maybe he fought them in a manner of groups, doing in a silent way so other groups would not be able to detect this.

Doing it like an all for one fight seems to be very hard to do without raising noise, but that could be a possibility taking the 3 Uchiha Jounnin as example.That would involve leaving lots of dead bodies lying around, not the wisest choice if you want to be undetected. Just one person wandering in would trigger the alarm.
Actually, nobody knew exactly how strong Itachi was at that time.They knew he's strong enough to kick their asses.
but your last option isn't one actually, by that time the only powerful Shinoby that could had ruined his plan could had been SAndaime, key word, Could.The shinobi doesn't need to fight Itachi. He could simply run away calling for help, stall Itachi so that others can call for help, or attack Itachi when he's busy fighting the others.
I get your point, but I have the feeling he didn't do that, it doesn't seems Itachi kind of Fighting style, I think more about using genjutsus and fast paced attacks..

If I would had to pick one, I pick the second option as the most possible.He would need to use lots of fast paced attacks to defeat the Uchiha. He'd just be doing it from multiple locations at once. I don't think Itachi is stupid enough to try Genjutsu vs. Sharingan. He's REALLY need chakra to burn then.
After he retreated from Gai, he was already weary, as noted by Kakashi.Well, wiping out an entire clan would tire one out.

[Rurik]

So the point is that a battered tired Kakashi can't really be compared to a fresh Itachi.

And hence, Saying that because Kakshi could made dozen useless clones doesn't mean that Itachi can make dozen useful clones, and more when it was stated that normal people cant maintain that jutsu for long.

That would involve leaving lots of dead bodies lying around, not the wisest choice if you want to be undetected. Just one person wandering in would trigger the alarm.

that depend in the manner in how he fought and the location of the people he fought, it doesn't make sense he fought everyone at the same time, because I dont see Itach doing a war cry so all the uchiha goes to the central uchiha Plaza to fight him.

They knew he's strong enough to kick their asses.

But not strong as a Sanin, and certainly not strong enough to kick the entire clan ass.

The shinobi doesn't need to fight Itachi. He could simply run away calling for help, stall Itachi so that others can call for help, or attack Itachi when he's busy fighting the others.

is the point i said erlier is that, not only a Shinoby from the police force will rather fight instead of Run, but also, stalling Itachi was matter of seconds. not enough for someone to get help.

He would need to use lots of fast paced attacks to defeat the Uchiha. He'd just be doing it from multiple locations at once.

Why not? been fast enough + using his Shuriken Mastery, and it doest matter the location, even at point blank, his reach will only seem to be multiple, but actually he is just to fast for otehr to even have time to think.

I don't think Itachi is stupid enough to try Genjutsu vs. Sharingan. He's REALLY need chakra to burn then.

So why you used it as an Option? And then What Make you think his level of Genjutsu was on the level were other sharingan user could really do much?

Well, wiping out an entire clan would tire one out.

yeah but not by doing something as unrealistic as doing more than 2 Kage Bushin and on top of that a MS jutsu, whereas 5 Years later with One Kage Bushn some 4 Jutsu and MS he was weary.

[Ryuujin]

But Itachi's massacre of a genius clan, even if he is a prodigy among geniuses is odd especially since he did it effortlessly in one night.
Without bringing the rest of the village down on him in the process, at that...

[MobiuS]

the real question is, why the hell were the rest of the uchiha's so weak..
sure, they don't have MS but they still got sharingan don't they? it's not like itachi used MS on all of them, otherwise he would be really weak..
Uchiha's are suppose to be natural geniuses and shit, even a person who's not an uchiha, with 1 sharingan (kakashi) can hold his own for a while

Thats MY question. Sasuke and Itachi aren't the only one with eyes in the clan. If Oro lost to Itachi and realized the power, why not kidnap another member and throw a bag over his head? Keep him there for 3 years ... problem solved.

[Yogi]

And hence, Saying that because Kakshi could made dozen useless clones doesn't mean that Itachi can make dozen useful clones, and more when it was stated that normal people cant maintain that jutsu for long.Look, it's simple math.
Naruto with Kyuubi suppressed = 1,000 KB = 2x Kakashi
Kakashi = 500KB

Since Itachi is presumably stronger than Kakashi, saying he can make a few dozen is not a stretch at all.
that depend in the manner in how he fought and the location of the people he fought, it doesn't make sense he fought everyone at the same time, because I dont see Itach doing a war cry so all the uchiha goes to the central uchiha Plaza to fight him.

But not strong as a Sanin, and certainly not strong enough to kick the entire clan ass.

is the point i said erlier is that, not only a Shinoby from the police force will rather fight instead of Run, but also, stalling Itachi was matter of seconds. not enough for someone to get help.

Why not? been fast enough + using his Shuriken Mastery, and it doest matter the location, even at point blank, his reach will only seem to be multiple, but actually he is just to fast for otehr to even have time to think.All of this is a red herring. Even if Itachi could have defeated everyone without Kage Bunshin, something I highly doubt, why would he try? In order for it to work, he must never miss, never be discovered, never kill in the open, and no one must decide to run instead of fight. Things go wrong all the time, and any plan that depends on nothing going wrong is a CRAPPY plan. With Kage Bunshin, his plan will be much more workable and be able to handle mistakes and accidents.
So why you used it as an Option? And then What Make you think his level of Genjutsu was on the level were other sharingan user could really do much?Because the only Genjutsu that has shown to work was Tsukiyomi. Some powerful non-Tsukiyomi Sharingan-proof Genjutsu MIGHT exist, but there's no evidence that, even if it did exist, it can be performed constantly.
yeah but not by doing something as unrealistic as doing more than 2 Kage Bushin and on top of that a MS jutsu, whereas 5 Years later with One Kage Bushn some 4 Jutsu and MS he was weary.The MS jutsus are much more draining that a Kage Bunshin.

[Goshin]

maybe he used sasuno on them. i know its unlikely because he would be unable to use tsuyokumi on sasuke after that.

[Rurik]

Look, it's simple math.
Naruto with Kyuubi suppressed = 1,000 KB = 2x Kakashi
Kakashi = 500KB

Yeah in NArutos and Kakashi Wildest Dreams, Naruto can't do Taju Kage Bushin of fucntional Clones without the help of Kyuby, Kakshi himself already stated he can't maintain a Kage BUshin for long, because he doesn't have the chakra to do so.

if you are going to continue to bang your head up to the ridiculous claim that Kakashi can Make 500 KB, I see no need why to continue this.

Since Itachi is presumably stronger than Kakashi, saying he can make a few dozen is not a stretch at all.

Strenght has nothing to do wiht how many Kage Bushin someone can make or else Sasuke should had been able to Make more than a 1,000 clones.

Saying that any SHinoby outside a Sanin level of Chakra can make doznes of functinall Kage BUsihn is making it a stretch, is the same as saying that any Shinoby can actually summon Gamabunta. fact is, a full fighting Kage Bushin cost a good deal of Chakra, so making Dozens of this is only a JOb for people who actually have the back-up stamina to do so.



All of this is a red herring. Even if Itachi could have defeated everyone without Kage Bunshin, something I highly doubt, why would he try? In order for it to work, he must never miss, never be discovered, never kill in the open, and no one must decide to run instead of fight. Things go wrong all the time, and any plan that depends on nothing going wrong is a CRAPPY plan. With Kage Bunshin, his plan will be much more workable and be able to handle mistakes and accidents.

Because the need of a Kage BUshin to kill of his clan wasn't even needed? Because Using more than 2 Kage Bushin can prove too draining for him?

Yes Itachi was discovered when he begun his massacre reason why you see sign of destruction and Kunais scattered all over the place, even Uchihas with Kunai on Hands, however, You are parting from the premise that the UChiha who could fight Itachi, would had tried to run instead of fighting, too look for help (which actually they themselves are the help) something I told you is highly unlikely, what about those who could not fight? I already told you, Or they either were not Fast enough to look for outside help (like Sasuke) or they just hide in their homes in fear.

Because the only Genjutsu that has shown to work was Tsukiyomi. Some powerful non-Tsukiyomi Sharingan-proof Genjutsu MIGHT exist, but there's no evidence that, even if it did exist, it can be performed constantly.

I asked you again so why give it as an option is you just don't belive it? And then yes a normal Genjutsu can be used on a SHaringan user, or else Itachi would had not tried to use one Against Kakshi when they fought the second time.

The MS jutsus are much more draining that a Kage Bunshin.

That doesn't take away the fact that Itachi already showed you that using a MS Jutsu + one Kage Bushin and some 4 Jutsu drained him a good deal, let me add, a Kage Bsuhin that was not a fighting Kage Bushin to begin with.

So yeah, Basically the Manga is slapping you in the face showing you Itachi can only make around 2 Kage Bsuhin when he plans to use MS.

[Yogi]

Yeah in NArutos and Kakashi Wildest Dreams, Naruto can't do Taju Kage Bushin of fucntional Clones without the help of Kyuby, Kakshi himself already stated he can't maintain a Kage BUshin for long, because he doesn't have the chakra to do so.

if you are going to continue to bang your head up to the ridiculous claim that Kakashi can Make 500 KB, I see no need why to continue this.Yamato was actively suppressing Kyuubi and Naruto was stated to be making 1,000 KB. If you cannot understand simple math, please follow through on your promise and don't respond.
Strenght has nothing to do wiht how many Kage Bushin someone can make or else Sasuke should had been able to Make more than a 1,000 clones.Oh yes he should, but probably won't.
Saying that any SHinoby outside a Sanin level of Chakra can make doznes of functinall Kage BUsihn is making it a stretch, is the same as saying that any Shinoby can actually summon Gamabunta. fact is, a full fighting Kage Bushin cost a good deal of Chakra, so making Dozens of this is only a JOb for people who actually have the back-up stamina to do so.The first time Naruto summoned Kyuubi, both Kakashi and Zabuza said that the power level was slightly greater than their opponents. That means that up until that point, Naruto had been operating at a much lower power level. It was still enough to summon legions of Kage Bunshin to kick Mizuki's ass (and get slaughtered against Zabuza).
Because the need of a Kage BUshin to kill of his clan wasn't even needed? Because Using more than 2 Kage Bushin can prove too draining for him?Sandaime can use two Kage Bunshin, after he's been through the wringer. Kakashi gets exhausted from using MS, but he can do a single Kage Bunshin and not even feel it. Naruto with the Five Point Seal on him did four with ease. Which universe are you in which Itachi is even slightly inconvenienced by two.
Yes Itachi was discovered when he begun his massacre reason why you see sign of destruction and Kunais scattered all over the place, even Uchihas with Kunai on Hands, however, You are parting from the premise that the UChiha who could fight Itachi, would had tried to run instead of fighting, too look for help (which actually they themselves are the help) something I told you is highly unlikely, what about those who could not fight? I already told you, Or they either were not Fast enough to look for outside help (like Sasuke) or they just hide in their homes in fear.Prove that every single Uchiha who could fight, did in fact stand their ground and fight.

You can't. In fact, with such a large group the possibility that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will behave as expected approaches nil.
I asked you again so why give it as an option is you just don't belive it? And then yes a normal Genjutsu can be used on a SHaringan user, or else Itachi would had not tried to use one Against Kakshi when they fought the second time.I never said it couldn't be done, I just said it would use too much Chakra to be useful. The reason I suggested it was because it was a possibility, though an extremely unlikely one. Also, as a preemptive strike against Itachi fanboys.
That doesn't take away the fact that Itachi already showed you that using a MS Jutsu + one Kage Bushin and some 4 Jutsu drained him a good deal, let me add, a Kage Bsuhin that was not a fighting Kage Bushin to begin with.

So yeah, Basically the Manga is slapping you in the face showing you Itachi can only make around 2 Kage Bsuhin when he plans to use MS.Unfortunately, you're lying. He used three MS Jutsus, not one.

[Hunter]

Look, it's simple math.
Naruto with Kyuubi suppressed = 1,000 KB = 2x Kakashi
Kakashi = 500KB
It's not simple math, it's simple missreading.
Naruto has 100 times more chakra than Kakashi's chakra when Yamato doesn't suppress the Kyubi's chakra.
You are either referering to one of the earliest mistranslation of the chapter 315 or misread the correctly translated ones.

Because the only Genjutsu that has shown to work was Tsukiyomi. Some powerful non-Tsukiyomi Sharingan-proof Genjutsu MIGHT exist, but there's no evidence that, even if it did exist, it can be performed constantly.
The MS jutsus are much more draining that a Kage Bunshin.
Itachi used a regular Genjutsu on Kakashi's clone.

[Yogi]

It's not simple math, it's simple missreading.
Naruto has 100 times more chakra than Kakashi's chakra when Yamato doesn't suppress the Kyubi's chakra.
You are either referering to one of the earliest mistranslation of the chapter 315 or misread the correctly translated ones.Uh . . . yeah. 100x if not suppressed, 2x if suppressed, and Naruto can do 1,000 when suppressed. How does that contradict what I was saying?
Itachi used a regular Genjutsu on Kakashi's clone.OK, so we do have a Sharingan-piercing jutsu, or at least half-Sharingan piercing. That was only 30% Itachi, so he can do at least three. He can probably do more than that, but we don't know how much more.

[MobiuS]

Its very simple to detemine there was a ton of sharingan users.

Kakshi Gaiden.
Obito.

Kakashi's comment to Obito was that he's an Uchiha failure ... he does not have sharingan at that age. Even if we assume only 30% of Uchihas above Obito's age had Sharingan, thats still 1/3 of all the fighting age Uchihas had it.

Im not going to discount or decompile the Uchiha massacre however. Im just taking it as one of our first indicators that Kish was a terrible writer and this was the first clue. 1 sharingan amongst possible hundreds and he came out without a scratch or an alarm being set off at least once.

We'll never see the massacre or any other cool scenes. Because animating them will just magnify plotholes even more, or force Kish to give more abilities to the sharingan on the fly.

Take for example, Kakashi Gaiden.

- How did Rin transfer the eye?
- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.
- What happened to Rin?
- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side?

o___o

[Hunter]

Uh . . . yeah. 100x if not suppressed, 2x if suppressed, and Naruto can do 1,000 when suppressed. How does that contradict what I was saying?
"Yamato was actively suppressing Kyuubi and Naruto was stated to be making 1,000 KB."
Yamato was actively not suppressing the Kyubi, he was controling it so Naruto could use the Kyubi's chakra without being driven mad. We don't know how many KB Naruto can make when the Kyubi is completely suppressed.
On a related note I have heard that Kishimoto changed the x2 Kakashi to a x4 in the tankubon version but since I didn't buy it I can't check it myself.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Its very simple to detemine there was a ton of sharingan users.

Kakshi Gaiden.
Obito.

Kakashi's comment to Obito was that he's an Uchiha failure ... he does not have sharingan at that age. Even if we assume only 30% of Uchihas above Obito's age had Sharingan, thats still 1/3 of all the fighting age Uchihas had it.

Im not going to discount or decompile the Uchiha massacre however. Im just taking it as one of our first indicators that Kish was a terrible writer and this was
the first clue. 1 sharingan amongst possible hundreds and he came out without a scratch or an alarm being set off at least once.

We'll never see the massacre or any other cool scenes. Because animating them will just magnify plotholes even more, or force Kish to give more abilities to the sharingan on the fly.

Take for example, Kakashi Gaiden.

- How did Rin transfer the eye?
She was a medic nin. She used a medical jutsu. The process of the jutsu doesn't need to be explained.

- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.

You need an Uchiha body to most effectively use Sharingan. If Oro had Uchiha eyes transplanted into his body he wouldn't be able to deactivate the Sharingan and it would constantly drain his chakra, just like Kakashi's Sharingan drains chakra when he has it exposed.

- What happened to Rin?

She's dead. Kakashi stated that all the people he ever cared about are dead so we can assume Rin died somehow. How she died isn't important to the plot. There's no reason to go into detail about it.

- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side?

o___o

It's not as simple as stealing a body and then being able to produce an army of Sharingan users. Reproducing a bloodline is a complicated business. Oro tried splicing the 1st Hokage's bloodline into 60 test subjects and Yamato was the only success. And I doubt most villages even have access to the resources that Oro used to accomplish that. For most, the concept of stealing bodies to learn the secrets of bloodlines probably runs on the principle that if you know exactly how a bloodline works then you can better come up with a way to defeat it. But a bloodline like the Sharingan might not have any major weaknesses to exploit, so even if a body was stolen, nothing came of it.

[Hunter]

On top of that Obito was alive and was activating his Sharingan when Rin transplanted it to Kakashi. Stealing a Uchiha's corpse would probably be useless since the Sharingan wouldn't be activated.

[Yogi]

"Yamato was actively suppressing Kyuubi and Naruto was stated to be making 1,000 KB."
Yamato was actively not suppressing the Kyubi, he was controling it so Naruto could use the Kyubi's chakra without being driven mad. We don't know how many KB Naruto can make when the Kyubi is completely suppressed.
On a related note I have heard that Kishimoto changed the x2 Kakashi to a x4 in the tankubon version but since I didn't buy it I can't check it myself.Where does it say that? All translations I have say that Yamato was suppressing Kyuubi.

[Goshin]

Take for example, Kakashi Gaiden.

- How did Rin transfer the eye?
- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.
- What happened to Rin?
- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side?

o___o


I think it is because obito willfully gave the sharingran to kakashi, that is why he was able to use it. if you believe in spirits and stuff like that it may be that obitos spirit is in the eye and he activates it for kakashi. "I will become you eye" or something like that

I am preety sure that soem uchihas have died in battle and other villages if they have half a brain would have tried to steal the eye's before hunter nins come. if they got a sharingrean eye before and it didn't work it is becasue the eye wasn;'t given willfully to them.
that is just what i think of course :)

I don' think that kabuto was orochimaru slave before the uchiha massacre. he seems kind of young.

[Rurik]

Yamato was actively suppressing Kyuubi and Naruto was stated to be making 1,000 KB. If you cannot understand simple math, please follow through on your promise and don't respond.

Ehhh? as Hunter said, Yamato was Keeping Kyuby at bay, but he was actually using Kyuby chakra for the 1000 KB.

The first time Naruto summoned Kyuubi, both Kakashi and Zabuza said that the power level was slightly greater than their opponents. That means that up until that point, Naruto had been operating at a much lower power level. It was still enough to summon legions of Kage Bunshin to kick Mizuki's ass (and get slaughtered against Zabuza).

First of, don't try to make up lines that haven't been said in the Manga, Neither kakshi nor zabuza commented that the power level was slightly greater than their opponent, zabuza words were: "What this Chakra? Something is not Right..Kakshi's? No, is to big to be his." you can find that at the very beginning of volume 4.

and Mizuki got owned by a 1,000 Kage Bushin because he was that weak, unlike for example Kimi who defeated 1,000 without a scratch, while the KB power could had been different, here is more a question on how good is the opponent facing the KB.

Sandaime can use two Kage Bunshin, after he's been through the wringer. Kakashi gets exhausted from using MS, but he can do a single Kage Bunshin and not even feel it. Naruto with the Five Point Seal on him did four with ease. Which universe are you in which Itachi is even slightly inconvenienced by two.

Sandaime is a Hokage with a vast stamina, at that doesn't take away the fact that he only made 2.

And how many time have you seen kakshi using MS + a Kage Bushin? Never, So yeah Kakshi can make a KB without feeling much, that doesn't mean that he could make 12 of those and then be good enough to do a MS.

Again when Naruto got sealed He could do 4 because he still had a stamina way bigger than any normal Shinoby. whereas your implication is not saying that Itachi could make more than 2, but dozens of those + MS, I would ask better, what Manga are you reading?

Prove that every single Uchiha who could fight, did in fact stand their ground and fight.You can't. In fact, with such a large group the possibility that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will behave as expected approaches nil.

Thats really a lame claim, Prove to me that some Uchihas that could fight decided to look for outside help, instead of fighting and thus trying to defend those who could not fight.

Both of us are stating merely our opinion, and as I said I find it really unlikely those uchiha that could fight decided not to fight against Itachi, given the Uchiha were suppose to be the Help.


I never said it couldn't be done, I just said it would use too much Chakra to be useful. The reason I suggested it was because it was a possibility, though an extremely unlikely one. Also, as a preemptive strike against Itachi fanboys.

Yes you did said it couldn't be done, You said that only Genjuts that could work against a Shairngan is Tsukijoumy, and I really didn't understand as a "Preemptive strike against a Itachi fanboys".

And I found it funny, you are claiming Itachi sould have Chakra to do Dozens of KB and MS, but not so to do more than 3 Genjutsus to work against Sharingan users?


Unfortunately, you're lying. He used three MS Jutsus, not one.

Unfortunately you have to read the Manga, it was stated int eh manga that Itachi was weary after he used the MS against Kakashi.

[Yogi]

Ehhh? as Hunter said, Yamato was Keeping Kyuby at bay, but he was actually using Kyuby chakra for the 1000 KB.Once again, where was this stated?
First of, don't try to make up lines that haven't been said in the Manga, Neither kakshi nor zabuza commented that the power level was slightly greater than their opponent, zabuza words were: "What this Chakra? Something is not Right..Kakshi's? No, is to big to be his." you can find that at the very beginning of volume 4.Exactly. It was greater than Kakashi/Zabuza, but low enough that they briefly mistook it for Kakashi/Zabuza when they first felt it. Hence, slightly greater.
and Mizuki got owned by a 1,000 Kage Bushin because he was that weakRed herring. The point was that even the weakest form of Naruto was able to create that many.
Sandaime is a Hokage with a vast stamina, at that doesn't take away the fact that he only made 2.Actually, it was stated that his stamina was nowhere near what it used to be. Plus, he had just been throwing around major jutsu and had done a boss summon. Plus we're comparing it to Itachi, who should have more chakra than that.
And how many time have you seen kakshi using MS + a Kage Bushin? Never, So yeah Kakshi can make a KB without feeling much, that doesn't mean that he could make 12 of those and then be good enough to do a MS.Missing the point. The point is that KB uses drastically less chakra than MS does. You're making it like the KB takes so much chakra that it's on the level of MS techniques.
Again when Naruto got sealed He could do 4 because he still had a stamina way bigger than any normal Shinoby.Way bigger than normal Shinobi? As a Genin? Even if that's true Itachi isn't exactly normal.
whereas your implication is not saying that Itachi could make more than 2, but dozens of those + MS, I would ask better, what Manga are you reading?You said Itachi couldn't do two. Now that I've corrected you, proceed to whine with your tail between your legs.
Thats really a lame claim, Prove to me that some Uchihas that could fight decided to look for outside help, instead of fighting and thus trying to defend those who could not fight.

Both of us are stating merely our opinion, and as I said I find it really unlikely those uchiha that could fight decided not to fight against Itachi, given the Uchiha were suppose to be the Help.In order for the plan to work, every single combat-capable Uchiha would have to stand and fight. If each Uchiha had a 95% chance of fighting, and there were only 40 who might have been able to run away, the possibility that ALL 40 would fight is .95^40 = .1285. If you jack up the fight percentage to 99%, then the possibility of all of them fighting is .6690. This isn't including all the non-combatants who would also be running away as fast as possible. With Kage Bunshin, or even some other type of Bunshin surrounding the area, Itachi wouldn't need to worry about people escaping.
Yes you did said it couldn't be done, You said that only Genjuts that could work against a Shairngan is Tsukijoumy, and I really didn't understand as a "Preemptive strike against a Itachi fanboys".I said that Tsukiyomi is the only one we've seen, though Itachi implied there could be others that work, and tried to use one himself against Kakashi. As for the fanboys, claiming that because MS would work against the Sharingan all of Itachi's Genjutsus will work is something I can easily imagine them saying.
Unfortunately you have to read the Manga, it was stated int eh manga that Itachi was weary after he used the MS against Kakashi.So? He still fired off two MS jutsus after that before he was out of power.

[Hunter]

Where does it say that? All translations I have say that Yamato was suppressing Kyuubi.
All translation are actually stating otherwise. Only one early translation didn't because the translator didn't see the negation part of the sentence.
I have also heard off one scanlation team who deliberately changed the translation they used to stick with their own view though.
But I doubt you found scanlations saying Yamato was suppressing and not controling the Kyubi's chakra since every single translator have translated the line as controling.

The most obvious moment in the manga where it is stated is chapter 315 where Kakashi and Yamato explain why Naruto is the only person ables to do this training because with the Kyubi's chakra non suppressed he has 100 fold more chakra than Kakashi.

[Rurik]

Once again, where was this stated?

Well, I suggest you read the manga more carefully to see where it was stated.
Exactly. It was greater than Kakashi/Zabuza, but low enough that they briefly mistook it for Kakashi/Zabuza when they first felt it. Hence, slightly greater.

He didn’t mistook it for Kakshi, he asked from whom it was because he had no idea where it was coming from, so no nobody implied it was slightly greater. But he did Implied it was too big for Kakashi.

Red herring. The point was that even the weakest form of Naruto was able to create that many.

But still the weakest form of Naruto is stil, superior than normal Shinoby.

Actually, it was stated that his stamina was nowhere near what it used to be. Plus, he had just been throwing around major jutsu and had done a boss summon. Plus we're comparing it to Itachi, who should have more chakra than that.

Yes he wasn’t as like he was before, howveer he was still strong enough to leave the ANBU in awed and still be the strongest Shinoby in Konoha. And I doubt Itachi had more Chakra than Sandaime, but that’s not the point, the point is, Doing more than 2 kage Bushin and then the MS.

Missing the point. The point is that KB uses drastically less chakra than MS does. You're making it like the KB takes so much chakra that it's on the level of MS techniques.

Im not missing the point, but I guess you are missing it, the point is not that Itachi could not make 4 or 5 Kage Bushin and Fight with them, the point is Itachi doing 4 or 5 Kage Bushin that could fight and on top of that doing a MS Jutsu, and more with an age where he should had less chakra than when he fought against kakshi.


Way bigger than normal Shinobi? As a Genin? Even if that's true Itachi isn't exactly normal.

No, As In any Normal Shinoby, and Itachi isn’t normal not because his Chakra, but because his insane Genius ability, Been strong doesn’t mean you need a chakra pool like a Sannin. Kisame should have a bigger Chakra pool than Itachi, yet Itachi is stronger than Him.

You said Itachi couldn't do two. Now that I've corrected you, proceed to whine with your tail between your legs.

Really? I get the impression you are just not reading my posts:

But how many functional Kage Bushin could Itachi do(having in mind he used MS)? At best 2 i'll say, And that number it is still low against a Clan.

Personally I don’t think he did used Kage Bushin, because more than 2 would have been to much for him to do a MS later and on top of that fight against shinoby.

yeah but not by doing something as unrealistic] as doing more than 2 Kage Bushin and on top of that a MS jutsu, whereas 5 Years later with One Kage Bushn some 4 Jutsu and MS he was weary.

Because the need of a Kage BUshin to kill of his clan wasn't even needed? Because Using more than 2 Kage Bushin can prove too draining for him? …… That doesn't take away the fact that Itachi already showed you that using a MS Jutsu + one Kage Bushin and some 4 Jutsu drained him a good deal, let me add, a Kage Bsuhin that was not a fighting Kage Bushin to begin with.

So yeah, Basically the Manga is slapping you in the face showing you Itachi can only make around 2 Kage Bsuhin when he plans to use MS.

In order words, I never had said Itachi could not do 2.

In order for the plan to work, every single combat-capable Uchiha would have to stand and fight. If each Uchiha had a 95% chance of fighting, and there were only 40 who might have been able to run away, the possibility that ALL 40 would fight is .95^40 = .1285. If you jack up the fight percentage to 99%, then the possibility of all of them fighting is .6690. This isn't including all the non-combatants who would also be running away as fast as possible.

Ok, when you make up numbers, your calculation seems nice, whereas your calculation doesn’t take in account Itahchi’s speed, something like, Uchihas had only 40 Shinobies tha coul fight, It takes Itchi 1 seconds to Kill an Uchiha (that’s a fact), In order to Kill them all it would take him 40 second, if some Uchihas plans to escape, they will need around 1 minute to find help, whereas in order to reach the next help outside the clan location was located at 5 minutes from their current position.

So Yeah your numbers felt short if you decide to make what you want.

With Kage Bunshin, or even some other type of Bunshin surrounding the area, Itachi wouldn't need to worry about people escaping.

As I said maybe he didn’t need to worry because he was fast enough to catch anyone who tried to do so, or even fast enough to anyone to react, we are talking about a Shinoby that in a second had 3 Jounin with Sharingan in their feet.

I said that Tsukiyomi is the only one we've seen, though Itachi implied there could be others that work, and tried to use one himself against Kakashi. As for the fanboys, claiming that because MS would work against the Sharingan all of Itachi's Genjutsus will work is something I can easily imagine them saying.

Well, He did in fact do a genjutsu on Kakshi, so I guess Itachi knows he had a normal Genjuts that could work against a Shairngan user, I choose that option as genjutsu because it was the one I liked better than the other 2 options you gave.

However, I will stand that HE could had used a combination of Great Shuriken Mastery and his great speed. But I will doubt he use KB at all.

So? He still fired off two MS jutsus after that before he was out of power.

He had rest in between, and Im parting from the fact they mentioned he was weary after that, maybe not as weary as to when he retreated against Jiraiya, but I think the Exhaustion he had is a good indication that when Itachi plans to use MS, doing more than 2 Kage Bushin could prove too draining for him.

[Yogi]

All translation are actually stating otherwise. Only one early translation didn't because the translator didn't see the negation part of the sentence.
I have also heard off one scanlation team who deliberately changed the translation they used to stick with their own view though.
But I doubt you found scanlations saying Yamato was suppressing and not controling the Kyubi's chakra since every single translator have translated the line as controling.

The most obvious moment in the manga where it is stated is chapter 315 where Kakashi and Yamato explain why Naruto is the only person ables to do this training because with the Kyubi's chakra non suppressed he has 100 fold more chakra than Kakashi.The thing is, whenever Naruto became Kyuubified, Yamato would immediately suppress, not control, the Kyuubified Naruto. "Control" could be taken as "enables Naruto to use Kyuubi chakra without actually taking on any of Kyuubi's characteristics" or "make sure Naruto doesn't use Kyuubi chakra and go beserk." However, I will concede that there is the possibility that Kakashi only has the ability to make 10 Kage Bunshin, though "could be 100 times more" implies that 100 times is an upper limit.
He didn’t mistook it for Kakshi, he asked from whom it was because he had no idea where it was coming from, so no nobody implied it was slightly greater. But he did Implied it was too big for Kakashi.No, at first they both thought it was their opponent powering up.
But still the weakest form of Naruto is stil, superior than normal Shinoby.He's stronger than his fellow Genin, but his normal Chakra wasn't enough to summon anything stronger than Gamakichi. It's clearly stated that he needs Kyuubi power to summon Gamabunta. Besides, even Chuunin are considered commanders and therefore "better than average." Itachi is MUCH better than average.
Yes he wasn’t as like he was before, howveer he was still strong enough to leave the ANBU in awed and still be the strongest Shinoby in Konoha. And I doubt Itachi had more Chakra than Sandaime, but that’s not the point, the point is, Doing more than 2 kage Bushin and then the MS.So you're ignoring all the evidence I posted for opinion. Right.
No, As In any Normal Shinoby, and Itachi isn’t normal not because his Chakra, but because his insane Genius ability, Been strong doesn’t mean you need a chakra pool like a Sannin. Kisame should have a bigger Chakra pool than Itachi, yet Itachi is stronger than Him.Pretty much every strong (Elite Jounin+) ninja we've come across has had a large chakra pool, with the possible exception of Sasori and Kabuto, and that's only because we don't know how much chakra it takes to use their jutsus. Besides, we've already seen that Naruto's normal chakra can't summon anything larger than Gamakichi whereas Tsunade can carry out Boss level summons. We KNOW that MS sucks chakra and that Itachi can do three of them and not need to be carried home.
In order words, I never had said Itachi could not do 2.Fine, three. You still lose.
Ok, when you make up numbers, your calculation seems nice, whereas your calculation doesn’t take in account Itahchi’s speed, something like, Uchihas had only 40 Shinobies tha coul fight, It takes Itchi 1 seconds to Kill an Uchiha (that’s a fact), In order to Kill them all it would take him 40 second, if some Uchihas plans to escape, they will need around 1 minute to find help, whereas in order to reach the next help outside the clan location was located at 5 minutes from their current position.

So Yeah your numbers felt short if you decide to make what you want.Nice try. You say they would ALL fight. I showed that even with a 99% fight rate, that's still not very good odds. Don't try that bait and switch tactic on me. I've shown that expecting all of them to fight is an unreasonable assumption for this already risky venture.
As I said maybe he didn’t need to worry because he was fast enough to catch anyone who tried to do so, or even fast enough to anyone to react, we are talking about a Shinoby that in a second had 3 Jounin with Sharingan in their feet.Was this in the Anime or something? In the manga it wasn't clear how long the fight lasted, just that it was extremely fast.
Well, He did in fact do a genjutsu on Kakshi, so I guess Itachi knows he had a normal Genjuts that could work against a Shairngan user, I choose that option as genjutsu because it was the one I liked better than the other 2 options you gave.

However, I will stand that HE could had used a combination of Great Shuriken Mastery and his great speed. But I will doubt he use KB at all.Like I said,
it's a possibility, just not a good one.
He had rest in between, and Im parting from the fact they mentioned he was weary after that, maybe not as weary as to when he retreated against Jiraiya, but I think the Exhaustion he had is a good indication that when Itachi plans to use MS, doing more than 2 Kage Bushin could prove too draining for him.Chakra exhaustion isn't something that you can easily recover from. Kakashi takes around a week to recover from being completely drained, and Shizune thought that Naruto would take a week to recover from his chakra exhaustion. Recovering a 1/3 chakra drain would have taken days, not hours.

By the way, where do you get the "2 max" figure from? I try to provide calculations and concrete examples but you make up magic numbers.

[Rurik]

No, at first they both thought it was their opponent powering up.

No they didn’t, Kakashi right Away knew it was Kyuby, whereas Zabuza was completely confused about it.

He's stronger than his fellow Genin, but his normal Chakra wasn't enough to summon anything stronger than Gamakichi. It's clearly stated that he needs Kyuubi power to summon Gamabunta. Besides, even Chuunin are considered commanders and therefore "better than average." Itachi is MUCH better than average.

Yes to summon he need his secondary source of Chakra (and not even going Kyubyfied), reason why basically he and the sannin are the only people who can pull out a summon like gamabunta. and then I think you are not getting the point the person been strong doesn’t mean they need a large chakra pool, that will depend on the person and not on the rank.

So you're ignoring all the evidence I posted for opinion. Right.

No, Im not, I just don’t agree with those given it contradicts the Manga.
Pretty much every strong (Elite Jounin+) ninja we've come across has had a large chakra pool, with the possible exception of Sasori and Kabuto, and that's only because we don't know how much chakra it takes to use their jutsus.


Not only you are making things out of nowhere, but you are wrong, as kakashi himself said he had a low Chakra capacity, and we don’t have never idea of kabuto or sasori Chakras.

Besides, we've already seen that Naruto's normal chakra can't summon anything larger than Gamakichi whereas Tsunade can carry out Boss level summons. We KNOW that MS sucks chakra and that Itachi can do three of them and not need to be carried home.

Yes Tsunade can do that because her Natural Chakra is Insane compared to normal shinoby, Just as Jiraya and Oro, but people as kakshi can’t do that, and Itachi hasn’t shown that he could do that either.

Fine, three. You still lose.

What Kind if Childish behavior is this? Let me remind you that you didn’t say 3 or 4, you said a Dozen.

Nice try. You say they would ALL fight. I showed that even with a 99% fight rate, that's still not very good odds. Don't try that bait and switch tactic on me. I've shown that expecting all of them to fight is an unreasonable assumption for this already risky venture.

Im not using my calculation based that all will fight, Im basing it of all of them Running.

Even if only one decided to fight where the other 43 decided to run it would make no difference, I would only take One Second to Kill one and even less to kill those who are runin instead of fighting.


Was this in the Anime or something? In the manga it wasn't clear how long the fight lasted, just that it was extremely fast.

Yeah it was clear alright, One panel the Uchihas, next panel indication of the action of movement and panel of the uchihas in the ground, basically a second. And if oyu want to nitick really fast, but none the less it didn’t ive time to the uchias to react.

Like I said,
it's a possibility, just not a good one.

Isn’t a good one? I think is the most logical one parting from what Itachi is.

Chakra exhaustion isn't something that you can easily recover from. Kakashi takes around a week to recover from being completely drained, and Shizune thought that Naruto would take a week to recover from his chakra exhaustion. Recovering a 1/3 chakra drain would have taken days, not hours.

You have a serious misconception on the series:

Kakshi got like that because the Usage of the sharingan and the stress it give to the body, It was stated that shinoby recovers their Stamina after a Day of rest, if it was like oyu said, then Kakshi should had been in bed after he fought with Kakuuzu.

For naruto it was because of the Injuries received by his fight with sasuke.

And Then it seems you are not paying attention on what Im saying, is not that Im inverting that Itachi was weary after he used the MS on Kakashi, is that it was stated in the Manga, so if he could pull two MS later after been weary, that means his rest was good enough for him to pull two MS jutsu and a Genjutsu before getting completely drained

By the way, where do you get the "2 max" figure from? I try to provide calculations and concrete examples but you make up magic numbers.

Plane an simple, first of all, We haven’t seen a Shinoby outside Naruto or sandaime using kage Bushin to fight, maybe kakshi but it was very small amount of time two or 3 Taijutsu movements at best.

Itachi when he as 18, Did 4 Jutsu a kahe Bushin that did not fight and a MS, this left him weary

Now, parting from the fact that Kakshi said that with his low chkar cant maintain a Kage Bushin for long and that what you are talking about is a Kage Bushin that could fight whoever comes, and having in mind that itahi had 13 years old and hence a smaller chakra capacity, Ill say he at that time cold only pull 2 Kage Bushin that could fight so he had enough to do the MS., which is the MS the reason, not the KB itself but maybe the MS Drained Him 30 or 40 % but 2 more kage Busihn that could fight could take some 30 %, but you also have to calculate the stamina and jutsu if any he should had used. 2 seems probable.

My Number seem magic as ou said, and I could be wrong, but certainly mine number is based on what a Kage bushin that could fight takes. Whereas you are delusional thinking Kakshi can make 500 of those.

[MobiuS]

She was a medic nin. She used a medical jutsu. The process of the jutsu doesn't need to be explained.

She used a medical jutsu to transfer a bloodline ability.
.__.


You need an Uchiha body to most effectively use Sharingan. If Oro had Uchiha eyes transplanted into his body he wouldn't be able to deactivate the Sharingan and it would constantly drain his chakra, just like Kakashi's Sharingan drains chakra when he has it exposed.

Orochimaru summons Manda, revives people from the dead and uses tons of snake jutsus. I doubt the regular sharingan will incapacitate him as it does to kakashi.



She's dead. Kakashi stated that all the people he ever cared about are dead so we can assume Rin died somehow. How she died isn't important to the plot. There's no reason to go into detail about it.

A one frame casual comment is supposed to explain how his initial team who had a chapter devoted to them got dispersed. Very nice and tidy writing.



It's not as simple as stealing a body and then being able to produce an army of Sharingan users. Reproducing a bloodline is a complicated business.

Rin did it. And as far as we know ... shes an AVERAGE medic-nin.


Oro tried splicing the 1st Hokage's bloodline into 60 test subjects and Yamato was the only success. And I doubt most villages even have access to the resources that Oro used to accomplish that. For most, the concept of stealing bodies to learn the secrets of bloodlines probably runs on the principle that if you know exactly how a bloodline works then you can better come up with a way to defeat it. But a bloodline like the Sharingan might not have any major weaknesses to exploit, so even if a body was stolen, nothing came of it.

So is the sharingan a bloodline ability or an eye anomaly? Bloodline indicates yyou need the actual body and blood to use to move. Anomal could be regrafted on a different eye and it'll work the same. We know the sharingan is a blood line ability ... so how did Kakashi get it?

[othafa]

- How did Rin transfer the eye?
- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.
- What happened to Rin?
- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side?

o___o

Actually, its explained simply by the fact that Rin transfered the eye while Obito was still alive. It seems that the Uchiha never developed a cursed seal of sorts that destroys their doujutsu upon death because it disappears after death. Also, it was Sasori's grandmother, not Gaara's.

[Yogi]

No they didn’t, Kakashi right Away knew it was Kyuby, whereas Zabuza was completely confused about it.No. Kakashi thought it was Zabuza, then realized it was Kyuubi.
Yes to summon he need his secondary source of Chakra (and not even going Kyubyfied), reason why basically he and the sannin are the only people who can pull out a summon like gamabunta. and then I think you are not getting the point the person been strong doesn’t mean they need a large chakra pool, that will depend on the person and not on the rank.

Not only you are making things out of nowhere, but you are wrong, as kakashi himself said he had a low Chakra capacity, and we don’t have never idea of kabuto or sasori Chakras.

Yes Tsunade can do that because her Natural Chakra is Insane compared to normal shinoby, Just as Jiraya and Oro, but people as kakshi can’t do that, and Itachi hasn’t shown that he could do that either.First, all levels are relative. It's clear that what is considered strong for a Genin and what is considered strong for a Jounin are two different things. Kakashi can summon stronger things than Naruto can, so his Chakra was greater than Naruto's at the time. However, compared to Orochimaru, Sandaime, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Gaara, Deidara, Hidan, Kazuku, Shodaime, Nidaime, Sandaime no Kazekage, Kisame, Gai with Gates, it's rather low.

Which leaves Kabuto and Sasori as powerful ninja with questionable stamina levels. We don't know how much chakra puppets and chakra scalpels take up, so they're unknown. However, we know that MS jutsus such chakra and Itachi can use them. Hence, he joins the ninjas in Column A.
No, Im not, I just don’t agree with those given it contradicts the Manga.I'm the one bringing evidence from the Manga. Bring your own evidence.
What Kind if Childish behavior is this? Let me remind you that you didn’t say 3 or 4, you said a Dozen.Oh I have plenty of other arguments which are in favor of dozens. See my previous posts.
Im not using my calculation based that all will fightNo, you said they would all fight. See YOUR previous posts.
Yeah it was clear alright, One panel the Uchihas, next panel indication of the action of movement and panel of the uchihas in the ground, basically a second. And if oyu want to nitick really fast, but none the less it didn’t ive time to the uchias to react.I saw the scene. All it shows was that Itachi easily beat the three. It didn't show the fight so we don't know what happened.
Isn’t a good one?No.
Kakshi got like that because the Usage of the sharingan and the stress it give to the body, It was stated that shinoby recovers their Stamina after a Day of rest, if it was like oyu said, then Kakshi should had been in bed after he fought with Kakuuzu.Kakashi could still walk after that battle so he didn't need to. Plus, he used the Sharingan in that fight too, so having that as the reason he needs bed rest is invalid. Simply put, Kakashi didn't expand as much energy as he did against Zanuza and Deidara.
For naruto it was because of the Injuries received by his fight with sasuke.Nope, I was referring to when he collapsed Rasengan training. Because of how drained he was, Shizune though that because Naruto was awake that days had past.
And Then it seems you are not paying attention on what Im saying, is not that Im inverting that Itachi was weary after he used the MS on Kakashi, is that it was stated in the Manga, so if he could pull two MS later after been weary, that means his rest was good enough for him to pull two MS jutsu and a Genjutsu before getting completely drained"one hour rest restores chakra" already debunked. Itachi's grand total is 3 MS jutsus plus misc.
Plane an simple, first of all, We haven’t seen a Shinoby outside Naruto or sandaime using kage Bushin to fight, maybe kakshi but it was very small amount of time two or 3 Taijutsu movements at best.30% Itachi also used a Kage Bunshin to fight.
Now, parting from the fact that Kakshi said that with his low chkar cant maintain a Kage Bushin for long and that what you are talking about is a Kage Bushin that could fight whoever comes, and having in mind that itahi had 13 years old and hence a smaller chakra capacity, Ill say he at that time cold only pull 2 Kage Bushin that could fight so he had enough to do the MS., which is the MS the reason, not the KB itself but maybe the MS Drained Him 30 or 40 % but 2 more kage Busihn that could fight could take some 30 %, but you also have to calculate the stamina and jutsu if any he should had used. 2 seems probable.

My Number seem magic as ou said, and I could be wrong, but certainly mine number is based on what a Kage bushin that could fight takes. Whereas you are delusional thinking Kakshi can make 500 of those.Concession accepted.

[BlackShinobi07]

He killed the clan by cutting them to peices with a katana

[Rurik]

First I apologize from my last post and its poor spelling, I was in a run and could not verify the Spelling to it smallest detail.

No. Kakashi thought it was Zabuza, then realized it was Kyuubi.

Kakashi had the same idea as Zabuza did, they though of the first person the could think of, Kakashi corrected himself right away saying who it was. at the end, neither of the shinoby thought the power was close to them. but different from Zabuza, Kakashi knew right away who it was, Zabuza never knew who it was.

First, all levels are relative. It's clear that what is considered strong for a Genin and what is considered strong for a Jounin are two different things. Kakashi can summon stronger things than Naruto can, so his Chakra was greater than Naruto's at the time. However, compared to Orochimaru, Sandaime, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Gaara, Deidara, Hidan, Kazuku, Shodaime, Nidaime, Sandaime no Kazekage, Kisame, Gai with Gates, it's rather low.

As in fact this is just flawed, it is true that something that is strong is way different to a Genin than to a Jounin, but for Naruto is different, Naruto has an Unlimited feed from Kyubi, even if Naruto runs out of his original source, he can still squeeze Chakra form Kyuby without needing to go Kyubified.

And you can't compare what Kakshi can summon and Naruto could summon, Naruto could Summon or Gamakashi or Gamabunta, all of this were based more on Naruto's poor chakra control, Kakashi was different as he could summon his pack of dogs, that is not even near what Summoning Gamabunta is.

Which leaves Kabuto and Sasori as powerful ninja with questionable stamina levels. We don't know how much chakra puppets and chakra scalpels take up, so they're unknown. However, we know that MS jutsus such chakra and Itachi can use them. Hence, he joins the ninjas in Column A.

We know that MS jutsu takes a lot of Chakra, however we cant compared it to other Jutsu we don't have any idea of what they take, just our assumption of it. for all we know, Using a puppet like Sandaime Kazekage can take a lot more of Chakra than the MS.

I'm the one bringing evidence from the Manga. Bring your own evidence.

You haven't bring any evidence of manga at all, just your misconception and misreading on what it was said.as long as you still belive that Naruto was creating hundred of clone without Kyubi and that any Shinoby could call up Dozens fighting clone without a sweat, you are in contradiction.



Oh I have plenty of other arguments which are in favor of dozens. See my previous posts.

NO, in fact your argument that favor Dozens is just based on Kakashi doing more than a donzen without Having Chakra.

No, you said they would all fight. See YOUR previous posts.

Look at my previous post and tell me where did I said they were all going to fight:

Uchihas had only 40 Shinobies tha coul fight, It takes Itchi 1 seconds to Kill an Uchiha (that’s a fact), In order to Kill them all it would take him 40 second, if some Uchihas plans to escape, they will need around 1 minute to find help, whereas in order to reach the next help outside the clan location was located at 5 minutes from their current position.

I just said 40 Shinobies that could fight, not that they all were going to fight him. note that I talked about Ucihhas runing. so my post took the possibility from some ruining to all of them running.

I saw the scene. All it shows was that Itachi easily beat the three. It didn't show the fight so we don't know what happened.

Read the complete manga to see action just like this, each time Kishimoto (or any other Manga for that matter) use this type of action representation is to describe sudden movement, and not movements that could had lasted lost of time.


Kakashi could still walk after that battle so he didn't need to. Plus, he used the Sharingan in that fight too, so having that as the reason he needs bed rest is invalid. Simply put, Kakashi didn't expand as much energy as he did against Zanuza and Deidara.

Because Kakashi didn't relied that heavily on Sharingan

The first time he fought with Zabuza he relied heavily on Sharingan, against Deidara it was basically because of the MS, as in fact Kakashi himself said the last time he did not ended on the Hospital because he did not used the MS.

Nope, I was referring to when he collapsed Rasengan training. Because of how drained he was, Shizune though that because Naruto was awake that days had past.

Remember that this collapse was based on Naruto getting Injured because of the Training of the rasengan. and I told you about Kakashi Been out of it: when he fought Kakuuzu, and another one I remember Against Zabuza the 2nd time, I can come up with more moments like that, you have to decide on what to believe.

"one hour rest restores chakra" already debunked. Itachi's grand total is 3 MS jutsus plus misc.

Here is were we disagree, As long as it was said that Itachi was weary after he performed KB, I will belive he is not able to a dozen wile using MS.

30% Itachi also used a Kage Bunshin to fight.


Yes, but remember this KB was destroyed in the spot once it was created, In I doubt you belive A Kage Bushin that was used for Bait, takes more than a KB that is created to fight.

---

On a side note, we are debating about chakra consumption, but I think Kishimoto himself hasn't followed a straight rule about it, I think he makes his characters waste chakra or deplete their chakra as he see fit, basically, the chakra consumption of each character is rather ambiguous to tell how much they need to get completely drained. this is just an idea an avery personal opinion I have been thinking about after Kakshis last fight. Hunter, Saze (and others) I would love to hear your opinion about this (even if its going a little off topic).

[MysticNinjaJay]

Its very simple to detemine there was a ton of sharingan users.

Kakshi Gaiden.
Obito.

Kakashi's comment to Obito was that he's an Uchiha failure ... he does not have sharingan at that age. Even if we assume only 30% of Uchihas above Obito's age had Sharingan, thats still 1/3 of all the fighting age Uchihas had it.

Im not going to discount or decompile the Uchiha massacre however. Im just taking it as one of our first indicators that Kish was a terrible writer and this was the first clue. 1 sharingan amongst possible hundreds and he came out without a scratch or an alarm being set off at least once.

We'll never see the massacre or any other cool scenes. Because animating them will just magnify plotholes even more, or force Kish to give more abilities to the sharingan on the fly.

Take for example, Kakashi Gaiden.

- How did Rin transfer the eye? (1)
- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? (2) He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.
- What happened to Rin? (3)
- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side? (4)

o___o



About your Plothole accusations:

(1)

She likely did some sort of chakra surgery. Granted, scientists in real life have not been able to transplant an entire eye. It is a very delicate organ and is not possible to transplant to full functionality with current technology like a heart or kidney.


(2)

I don't think Kabuto was employed by Sasori or Orochimaru during the Uchiha massacre. By the time he was the Uchiha bodies would be decayed past the point of having eyes.

Rin took Obito's eyes while he was still alive which may be a major factor in how the jutsu works.

Plus, I don't think Orochimaru wanted a transplanted eye like Kakashi's. He wanted to use the ability to its full potential which is why he tried to get Itachi and Sasuke's bodies to inherit their bloodlines.


(3)

We don't know. Kakashi did say that all of those precious to him have already died (e.g. His father, his Sensei, his short time best friend Obito).

I thought that ANBU girl who visited his grave might be Rin but they look nothing alike and we know that Kishi usually draws children to look similar to their adult counter parts.


(4)


Who's to say that they didn't? There could have been dozens of copy ninja wannabes with transplanted eyes like Kakashi throughout the history of ninja conflicts.

But in the end the eye's greatest strength comes from the bloodline that spawned it.

The Uchiha seem to not only be the wielders of an impressive bloodline ability but have a high percentage of geniuses in their clan. They are natural talents biologically and their true power comes from their blood.

I find it strange that Kakashi can even use Sharingan as it is a "bloodline" ability and since he has no Uchiha DNA he should not be able to use its powers.

But Kishi has written it so that he has "limited compatibility". He can see out of it obviously and use some of its powers by using his own chakra but because it is not compatible with his genes it drains him to the extent that does not happen for normal Uchiha Sharingan users.

I think Kishi has done some poor writing, such as having Oro be defeated by an 11 year old Itachi. I think he should have beaten him after fleeing the village and joining Akatsuki later in life.

But in this situation I do not think he has contradicted himself too much on the nature of Sharingan.

[Yogi]

Kakashi had the same idea as Zabuza did, they though of the first person the could think of, Kakashi corrected himself right away saying who it was. at the end, neither of the shinoby thought the power was close to them. but different from Zabuza, Kakashi knew right away who it was, Zabuza never knew who it was.Which is what I said. He though it was Zabuza, then corrected himself. Hence, the power was slightly greater to the point it could be confused.
As in fact this is just flawed, it is true that something that is strong is way different to a Genin than to a Jounin, but for Naruto is different, Naruto has an Unlimited feed from Kyubi, even if Naruto runs out of his original source, he can still squeeze Chakra form Kyuby without needing to go Kyubified.Unlimited? Naruto runs out of Chakra all the time. And where is the proof that Naruto can use Kyuuubi's power without being Kyuubified.
And you can't compare what Kakshi can summon and Naruto could summon, Naruto could Summon or Gamakashi or Gamabunta, all of this were based more on Naruto's poor chakra control, Kakashi was different as he could summon his pack of dogs, that is not even near what Summoning Gamabunta is.I already said, Naruto only summons Gamabunta when he gets Kyuubi chakra. It has nothing to do with chakra control. If it was the case, them after Naruto's chakra control increased from his Rasengan training, he would have been able to summon something bigger.
We know that MS jutsu takes a lot of Chakra, however we cant compared it to other Jutsu we don't have any idea of what they take, just our assumption of it. for all we know, Using a puppet like Sandaime Kazekage can take a lot more of Chakra than the MS.Translation:I have no evidence.
You haven't bring any evidence of manga at all, just your misconception and misreading on what it was said.as long as you still belive that Naruto was creating hundred of clone without Kyubi and that any Shinoby could call up Dozens fighting clone without a sweat, you are in contradiction.

NO, in fact your argument that favor Dozens is just based on Kakashi doing more than a donzen without Having Chakra.
Translation: I have no evidence. I also cannot read all the OTHER arguments posted.
Look at my previous post and tell me where did I said they were all going to fight:
I just said 40 Shinobies that could fight, not that they all were going to fight him. note that I talked about Ucihhas runing. so my post took the possibility from some ruining to all of them running.
Both of us are stating merely our opinion, and as I said I find it really unlikely those uchiha that could fight decided not to fight against Itachi, given the Uchiha were suppose to be the Help.
You are parting from the premise that the UChiha who could fight Itachi, would had tried to run instead of fighting, too look for help (which actually they themselves are the help) something I told you is highly unlikely, what about those who could not fight?
is the point i said erlier is that, not only a Shinoby from the police force will rather fight instead of Run, but also, stalling Itachi was matter of seconds. not enough for someone to get help.You've been constantly arguing that they would all fight, and now you do a 180 and say they'll all run? And pretend that's your argument all the time? Utterly dishonest.
Read the complete manga to see action just like this, each time Kishimoto (or any other Manga for that matter) use this type of action representation is to describe sudden movement, and not movements that could had lasted lost of time.No, you were the one who said one second when there was no proof it lasted just one second.
Because Kakashi didn't relied that heavily on Sharingan

The first time he fought with Zabuza he relied heavily on Sharingan, against Deidara it was basically because of the MS, as in fact Kakashi himself said the last time he did not ended on the Hospital because he did not used the MS.Of course. Using jutsu that depend on the Sharingan doesn't mean you relied on it. Makes perfect sense.
Remember that this collapse was based on Naruto getting Injured because of the Training of the rasengan. and I told you about Kakashi Been out of it: when he fought Kakuuzu, and another one I remember Against Zabuza the 2nd time, I can come up with more moments like that, you have to decide on what to believe.First, Shizune stated that it was because of Chakra exhaustion. Give it up. In addition, why do you assume that someone will use all their power in every fight. Kakashi had enough left over for several dozen Kage Bunshin. If he has been really tired. he'd just have used regular Bunshin and hope the enemy will fall for the bluff.
Here is were we disagree, As long as it was said that Itachi was weary after he performed KB, I will belive he is not able to a dozen wile using MS.Ah, the old "it's just my opinion" instead of giving evidence.
Yes, but remember this KB was destroyed in the spot once it was created, In I doubt you belive A Kage Bushin that was used for Bait, takes more than a KB that is created to fight.The KB also did some Genjutsu against Naruto.

[MobiuS]

About your Plothole accusations:
She likely did some sort of chakra surgery.

Im not complaining that it was a transferred eye. People have lost more than that and got it back (the spirit in your arms?)

Im complaining because that means any "physical" bloodline trait can be stolen! I can get a Byakugan in one eye, a sharingan in the other and throw it on someone with genes from Kimimaro's clan. 3 bloodlines on 1 body. Doesnt the bloodline have to do with your BLOOD?


I don't think Kabuto was employed by Sasori or Orochimaru during the Uchiha massacre. By the time he was the Uchiha bodies would be decayed past the point of having eyes.

This is an assumption. Kabuto's history runs very deep and mysterious. For all we know ... Kabuto could have been a mole baby clone planted on the battlefield by Orochimaru. Its inconclusive to decide Kabuto was not in anyone's employ at the time.


Rin took Obito's eyes while he was still alive which may be a major factor in how the jutsu works.

Im sure during combat, theres critically injured but not dead people on the floor. Steal a sharingan.


Plus, I don't think Orochimaru wanted a transplanted eye like Kakashi's. He wanted to use the ability to its full potential which is why he tried to get Itachi and Sasuke's bodies to inherit their bloodlines.

Again with the bloodline. How is Kakashi able to run a sharingan without the right blood? Oro's chakra pool means he CAN run a sharingan with virtually no issues. What I dont get is why he wants their body when he can graft it on ANY body. Ild take Kisames so I can have disgusting chakra levels and be able to run any dojutsus I want to.


We don't know. Kakashi did say that all of those precious to him have already died (e.g. His father, his Sensei, his short time best friend Obito).

I thought that ANBU girl who visited his grave might be Rin but they look nothing alike and we know that Kishi usually draws children to look similar to their adult counter parts.

Assumption to explain away a plothole Kish made. If theres no conclusive manga evidence, it doesnt count. Its an omission.


I find it strange that Kakashi can even use Sharingan as it is a "bloodline" ability and since he has no Uchiha DNA he should not be able to use its powers.

My point exactly.


But Kishi has written it so that he has "limited compatibility". He can see out of it obviously and use some of its powers by using his own chakra but because it is not compatible with his genes it drains him to the extent that does not happen for normal Uchiha Sharingan users.

Actually hes been able to use all of its power till he started throwing crazy addons to <that uchiha whose name I will never spell right>. What Itachi can do with his, Kakashi has done. Save for the Gen Pillar sealing. But we dont know if hes ever had to use it or not.


I think Kishi has done some poor writing, such as having Oro be defeated by an 11 year old Itachi. I think he should have beaten him after fleeing the village and joining Akatsuki later in life.

That was the beginning of his many mistakes. As if Oro didnt live in Konoha with Uchihas ... he knows the full specs of their moves.


But in this situation I do not think he has contradicted himself too much on the nature of Sharingan.

No no ... not contradicted. Over expanded is the right word.
In the beginning ... the tw dojutsus (Byakugan and Sharingan) were like 2 different guns ...

Byakugan - silenced usp
Sharingan - glock 9

Now Kish decided to throw on a scope, a laser beam, a grenade launcher, cheese grater, potato peeler and remote control on the glock .. with no explanation as to how or why they need to be there. Hes just like ..

"Oh and ... the glock can now do all you tivo settings without you having to touch it!"

Theres the people who arent worried about the quality of the plot. They are like ... "omg! it fckin peels potatos AND it can wipe my ass for me when Im done shitting. Oh man this rocks!"

And then theres the normal readers who are like ... "why do i need a potato peeler on my gun? :confused:

[Rurik]

I decided to play your game, but either way is not as if you are going to use those chapter I’m going to use as reference, because you already decided to ignored them.
Which is what I said. He though it was Zabuza, then corrected himself. Hence, the power was slightly greater to the point it could be confused.

Manga Chapter 28 page 6:

Zabuza: Who’s that Chakra? Kakashis? No, is too strong to be his.

Point me out Manga chapter where it was stated it was slightly greater.

Unlimited? Naruto runs out of Chakra all the time. And where is the proof that Naruto can use Kyuuubi's power without being Kyuubified.

When he runs out of Chakra he can call on Kyuby chakra, so yes it is unlimited. Reason why Jiraiya asked Naruto to waste his own Chakra so he could call Kyuby chakra.Chapter 92 page 14

Another example is Naruto been out of His own Chakra against Gaara and the using Kyuby Chakra. Chapter 136 page 07.

When has Naruto call Kyuby Chakra without been Kyubified?:

When He Summoned Gamabunta the first time, Chapter 95 page 17
Against Neeji, Chapter 104, page 02 ~ 07
When HE tried to do a Summon Jutus in fron of Kisame and Itachi. Chapter 146 page 16
Against Gaara. Chapter 136 page 10 ~ 11

Those are the one I can recall from the back of my mind.

I already said, Naruto only summons Gamabunta when he gets Kyuubi chakra. It has nothing to do with chakra control. If it was the case, them after Naruto's chakra control increased from his Rasengan training, he would have been able to summon something bigger.

Yes it has also to do with control, reason why when he summoned Gamabunta the first time Jiraiya said this:

Chapter 96 page 3

Jiraiya: “It looks like he could pull Kyuby Chakra this time, tough is not stable yet

He used too much of the Huge Chakra ( Wao, a Sanin saying too much inside huge)

Of All the possibilities he summoned Him [Gamabunta]”



The times when he has summoned the frog boss was not on his own will and was basically because of his lack of Chakra control.

And Precisely the reason why he only summoned Gamakichi in front of the Sanin was his lack of Control, Naruto been able to do Chakra control to use Ransengan is way different type of control than the Chakra efficiency to do other things as to use the correct amount of Chakra to do a Functional Jutsu (this was explained by Ebisu in Chapter 90.

And For the record I’m not saying he can summon gamabunta without Kyuby Chakra.


Translation:I have no evidence.
Translation: I have no evidence. I also cannot read all the OTHER arguments posted.
Yes, You don’t have any evidence at all, I do read your arguments, but quite frankly most of them are just your inventions without using any part of the Manga, and those you take from the Manga, are not even close to what you are trying to prove or you just got them wrong.

I hope you come up with a Manga chapter where it states MS consume more than Sandaime puppet, or for that matter that Sasori or Kabuto have low Chakra.

You've been constantly arguing that they would all fight, and now you do a 180 and say they'll all run? And pretend that's your argument all the time? Utterly dishonest.

You should try to understand your own post and mine instead of arguing without even reading properly. Yes I was and still believe they all tried to fight, however My latest example was made based on your point of view that all or some decided to run (reason why I said at the beginning “you didn’t incluide Itachi speed” leaving the idea of your previous example intact), to show you that even like that, Itachi could had Killed then without the need of KB, and even more easily because basically those Uhchiha would have been open to an attack. Is not my fault that you are not reading my post at all.

No, you were the one who said one second when there was no proof it lasted just one second.

Yes I said it lasted A second, and that’s does not change the fact that the action was made like that to make it look like that, and not more than that, so yeah unless you have something better to say and prove is lasted minutes or more than 3 seocnds at best, stop nitpicking. this are Ninjas that have Sharingan, the moves are to be fast as in second so you can strike then. as prove on how fast Itachi handled Kakashi and his Sharigan, I mean speed that he ccould barely follow with his[Kakshi] Sharigan?

Of course. Using jutsu that depend on the Sharingan doesn't mean you relied on it. Makes perfect sense.

What kind of remark is this? Using just the abilities of the Shairgna, like Copying, Hypnotizing, predicting moves, it will ware out Kakashi as stated by Itachi, because not only the Chakra, but the stress it gives to the body because Kakashi is not an Uchiha. (Chapter 142 page 13)

The bigger the use he gives to the eye, the more stress it gives to the body, geez, you are acting as if you are reading a totally different manga. This is not about Kakashi only Wasting Chakra, as in fact Sakura said This:

Chapter 16 page 9

“The Sharigan is incredible but if it puts that much stress in the body, I guess you have to think before using it.”

First, Shizune stated that it was because of Chakra exhaustion. Give it up. In addition, why do you assume that someone will use all their power in every fight. Kakashi had enough left over for several dozen Kage Bunshin. If he has been really tired. he'd just have used regular Bunshin and hope the enemy will fall for the bluff.

Tsunade stated this Chapter 162 page 04:

“He is all tired out, His Left hand is completely burned by the Chakra, at this rate this kid wont be waking up until the day after tomorrow.”

If you are going to debate against me using evidence, I suggest you stop making things as Shizune didn’t stated it was because Chakra exhaustion, she said this Chapter 162 page 9:

Shizune: “Your Body Has recovered?”

Naruto: “No matter what Injury it is, one night sleep has always been enough”

Kakashi was tired reason why instead of Creating 3 or 4 KB that could fight he created Dozens to scare those people away. Reaosn why he said, “I can at least do that”

And then you are totalling ignoring the fact that he was tired after Kakuuzu, and he did not ended up in the Hospital, or whe Shikamaur has run out of Chkara, like 2 or 3 times in the entire Manga? and has never needed to go to the hospital or days rests for that matter?

In fact, it was shown that good rest and food you can be fully energized,Manga Chapter 90 page 03

Ah, the old "it's just my opinion" instead of giving evidence.

Or maybe you should start using evidence yourself on how any Shinoby could call up Dozen fighting Shinobies, as in the Manga this was stated:

Manga Chapter 257 page 8:
Kakashi: “After you used that Eye Jutsu you became weary and you immediately left the fight” after this Flashback of Itachi saying Kisame they are going to retreat fro Gai and the others. First evidence that after using one MS and just a Kage bushin that did not do much and some Jutsu Itachi gets weary.

Evidence on Why not everybody can make Kage Bushing to the extent of Naruto:

Manga chapter 315 page 02 ~ 11:

Kakashi: “Although I can’t produce as many as you.”

Kakashi: “I don’t have your Stamina or your Chakra level so I cant maintain the justu for so long since its split the Chakra into 2, Shinobies with low chakra Capacities can’t use it to it full potential”

Shinobies with low chakra capacities are any Shinoby who has Half the amount of Chakra Naruto has.


The KB also did some Genjutsu against Naruto.

The Genjutsu was made by Itachi with his Finger.

Manga chapter 258.

Page 4, Itachi used the genjutsu on Naruto with his finger, and Kakahi proceed to attack Itachi Original

Page 5 and 6 While Kakashi was Holding the Itachi that made the genjutsu, another Kage Bushin that was destroyed right away by Naruto, at this moment the Genjutsu made by Itachi’s finger starts to do its Job.


I will suggest something, read the Manga again from scratch because you just don’t know what you are talking about.

[Obito Uchiha]

Umm. someone is saying that the ninja community is only a smal amount elite and much more is mediocre. How can that be? Look at all the elimination processes. First you have to graduate from the academy-Cake. Then a test given to you by your Sensie- medium. them the Chunin Exam-Hard. And then do something so super awesome that they will want to promote you to jounin-Supa hard/ then Hokage. I mean look at the rookie nine from Naruto's year. Who out of all of them is weak? or should i say who is the weakest? Do you consider that Person Mediocre? Those 9 are the entire new generation of ninja force the next ones are like Konohamaru and his gang. Or maybe there is one in between I don't know. Back to the main question. How id Itachi Kill the Uchih clan-:frustrated::bash:BRUTALLY!! LIKE BRUTALITY IN MORTAL KOMBAT:frustrated::frustrated::bash:

Thats all folks

[Vindi89]

lol Rurik reason why you remember this topic is because we had an arguement on this almost one year ago.

I still disagree with you on your example with the 1 sec kill shinobi. You can't call something a fact and then say later 'at most 3 sec'. Anyways I don't feel like starting up that arguement again, but I find it quite nostalgic.

Edit: I do however agree with you that Kage Bushins were probably not used in the assault because of the chakra waste.