View Full Version : Nanoha StrikerS - Generic Discussion
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Wild Goose
2008-12-19, 01:33
Lol, that reminds me of Ouroboros :p And Nodsri. Raptor, Eagle, Nephilim, Avenger...
LoweGear
2008-12-19, 06:56
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa299/spec_operations/1229687545774.jpg
So what's this about?
Yes, I'm seeing several things that spark my interest. Subaru in Air Force uniform? Rein in full-size?
OrderNorChaos
2008-12-19, 07:04
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa299/spec_operations/1229687545774.jpg
So what's this about?
Its a compilation of all the songs from the soundstages. All are remixed... If I am not wrong its a comiket exclusive item... :upset:
I want that cd....
That's all? Bummer, the tracklist made me suspect it, but I was hoping for something fresh.
LoweGear
2008-12-19, 07:24
Just hope they have larger versions of the inset images, especially the ones with the Numbers :D
Anyone else noticed how Hayate is wearing her coat there? Last time I saw her wearing her coat like that was in BetrayerS.
Looks like the creators enjoyed that doujin as well. :p
OrderNorChaos
2008-12-19, 07:50
Yes, I'm seeing several things that spark my interest. Subaru in Air Force uniform? Rein in full-size?
I don't think Subaru is wearing an air force uniform but more of the special rescue forces just as how Teana is in her enforcer uniform.
I am thinking, SSX timeline now ? But why are Erio and Caro in ground forces uniform ??
Special Rescue uniform is grey-blue, rather then the white-blue she is wearing there though.
OrderNorChaos
2008-12-19, 08:08
Special Rescue uniform is grey-blue, rather then the white-blue she is wearing there though.
hmm...
*whips out SSX booklet*
*looks closely....*
The colour is had to tell, from my side it looks greyish rather than white...
But perhaps its just me then:p
Hmm, I finally gotten my friend to help me get a copy... Maybe we will get a better picture so as to speak...
Estavali
2008-12-19, 09:27
Anyone else noticed how Hayate is wearing her coat there? Last time I saw her wearing her coat like that was in BetrayerS.
Looks like the creators enjoyed that doujin as well. :p
Actually, before BetrayerS, the StrikerS manga (chapter 7) had already shown Hayate wearing her coat like a cape.
Either way she looks good with it ;).
It's nearly a "classical" pose for people with longcoat (see Balalaïka in Black Lagoon)
Aaron008R
2008-12-19, 17:58
Its a compilation of all the songs from the soundstages. All are remixed... If I am not wrong its a comiket exclusive item... :upset:
I want that cd....
Even though that album is all songs, the fact that the pics speak hundreds of details for the SSX timeline is still a big bonus. >:3
And from what I can see, Canon loves me...:D:D:D
*RUUUUUUNNNNNNZZZZ!!!!!!!!!*
DezoPenguin
2008-12-19, 19:00
I'm trying to figure out why she's suddenly in a blue uniform, particularly since she was the one cast member who was actually in the Ground Forces before StrikerS started...
*suddenly remembers that Regius and Auris wore blue*
Wait, so the blue uni is, then the formal or "dress" uniform for the Ground Forces as opposed to the ordinary-wear brown uniform (kinda like the U.S. Navy's khakis and dress whites?)?
Edit: You know, I can totally see Hayate as Balalaika. :D
~
Edit: You know, I can totally see Hayate as Balalaika. :D
Nanoha's been tagged for that.
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9830/lnanohablagoonparodylg7.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lnanohablagoonparodylg7.jpg)
Cheers.
Wild Goose
2008-12-20, 02:14
Actually, in terms of hair color and beamspamming, really it shoulda been Fate as Balalaika and Nanoha as Revy - both of them have similar hair color and spam fire like no tomorrow.
Ottocycle
2008-12-20, 02:37
As for the new shots, Subaru is actually supposed be wearing a 'silver' uniform since it was mentioned to be the Special Rescue uniform in manga chapter 14. And comparing Subaru's uniform with Nanoha's and Vita's shows that Subaru's is on the grey side, as opposed to the bleach-white of the other two.
Estavali
2008-12-20, 09:35
I wonder if full-size Rein is here to stay.
Because if she is, this might lead to fuller-size Rein aka this:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nothung/Nanoha/th_HayateandReinFull-size-mode.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nothung/Nanoha/?action=view¤t=HayateandReinFull-size-mode.jpg):)
Was the translation for the Training Field entry in the DVD1 booklet ever translated? I tried to find it just now but couldn't.
EDIT: Read Arkeus' link, it didn't say HOW the terrain is generated, which is slightly disappointing.
Was the translation for the Training Field entry in the DVD1 booklet ever translated? I tried to find it just now but couldn't.
Here (http://asnano.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/nanoha-strikers-dvd-1-booklet/) is the DVD1 booklet translation (don't know how good it is).
it also has links to other DVD Booklet translation.
Wild Goose
2008-12-20, 13:31
I wonder if full-size Rein is here to stay.
Because if she is, this might lead to fuller-size Rein aka this:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nothung/Nanoha/th_HayateandReinFull-size-mode.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nothung/Nanoha/?action=view¤t=HayateandReinFull-size-mode.jpg):)
Aka zomg Hayate & Rein sexxoring during lunch break :D
Estavali
2008-12-31, 10:18
A really minor note, but I just noticed that the "X" in SSX is read as "I-ku-su" aka Ix.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nothung/Nanoha/th_SSXcover01.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nothung/Nanoha/?action=view¤t=SSXcover01.jpg)
DezoPenguin
2008-12-31, 21:54
A really minor note, but I just noticed that the "X" in SSX is read as "I-ku-su" aka Ix.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nothung/th_SSXcover01.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nothung/?action=view¤t=SSXcover01.jpg)
Actually, that's pretty cool. X is usually rendered as e-ku-su (like in the CLAMP series), so having it with an I does make it sound like they mean it as a sort-of pun on Ix's name. Sharp eyes, there!
Estavali
2008-12-31, 22:16
Actually, that's pretty cool. X is usually rendered as e-ku-su (like in the CLAMP series), so having it with an I does make it sound like they mean it as a sort-of pun on Ix's name. Sharp eyes, there!
That's one beautiful thing about watching/reading the Sound Stage subs. The translator group (flsnow) used the CD covers as the background and there is no way anyone could have missed it after staring at the screen so long (well, provided you know some katakana, of course =3).
That's one beautiful thing about watching/reading the Sound Stage subs. The translator group (flsnow) used the CD covers as the background and there is no way anyone could have missed it after staring at the screen so long (well, provided you know some katakana, of course =3).
And thanks to flsnow I am making corrections to my SSX translations. Minor things, and sometimes huge humongous gaping mistakes things.
Anyone know where I should punt my email to?
Don't know if it's right thread, but... I found something called "Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha - Visual Fanbook" and there is one thing that my eye caught - Fate, Linnith and chibi-Arf... And i got a thought - that chibification is not because energy conservation, but really because after Linnith death Arf was forced to take her role and after adoption it became unnecessary and she happily returned to her natural chibi form.
PhoenixG
2009-02-09, 16:42
I think it is a little of both. and yeah well Arf was "created" she was in a chibi form. So you could say it is her natural form.
About energy conservation. Arf did say that in this chibi form she consumes the least amount of mana from Fate-san.
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-02-09, 16:47
Going along those lines it could also be surmised that Arf was created in her smaller form on purpose. Since we don't know at which point in Fate's magical development she got Arf, it is possible Arf was created in the less mana-required form to allow Fate to become comfortable with the mana draw required to sustain a familiar. Then as she got stronger magically Arf could assume her adult form rather than right upon creation and being a sudden large mana draw for the young mage.
Estavali
2009-02-10, 07:17
Or it may be that Arf's human form (chibi-Arf) was originally in-line with her actual wolf-to-human age (IIRC she was a cub when Fate took her in, so when she was reborn as a familiar, her initial humanoid appearance was that of a child corresponding to her wolf age). After Fate got stronger and when she was sent out to do her mother's tidings, Arf took on the "Big Arf" form to help out better in battles.
Ported from the manga thread:
I think "unnecessary" is a better word. In my opinion you can develop the same (pseudo)plot with 1/3 of the actual cast of Strikers series and half of the episodes getting a better series for the fans, but probably less income.
I can get the same pseudo plot with A's with only 1/2 of the cast as well. The fact that I can rewrite it doesn't make those characters that I ditch unnecessary.
but at the other hand were probably complaining about the excess of military issues, useless characters and complete filler episodes, whose in my opinion are big problems. If you want to remove something from the show "to make it better" I think they should start by prioritizing those points.
And you're right. Those are major points that would need to be looked at in a rewrite. However, that doesn't mean that we should ignore the other relevant scenarios. One of the main priorities for example is the complaint that Erio and Caro weren't developed so well. And who do we need to develop them? Fate.
As we have discussed before, the way the StrikerS plot was set up, as far as relationships go the story was supposed to have been about the relationship between Fate taking care of Erio and Caro, and Nanoha struggling to take care of Vivio. This is evident in the final battles, where it was quite clearly Fate/Erio/Caro and Nanoha/Vivio. Ergo, one of the main priorities would be to have Fate with Erio and Caro, so you can see their bond and have the final battle create more meaning.
What this means is simple: Less Fate/Nanoha/Vivio, more Fate/Erio/Caro. The relationship between Fate and Vivio mattered nothing in the final battle, so really apart from a few token NanoFate 'daaaaw' scenes, there really is no need to concentrate on this, and in fact only works counterproductive.
Nina.Wolken
2009-03-12, 15:19
What this means is simple: Less Fate/Nanoha/Vivio, more Fate/Erio/Caro. The relationship between Fate and Vivio mattered nothing in the final battle, so really apart from a few token NanoFate 'daaaaw' scenes, there really is no need to concentrate on this, and in fact only works counterproductive.
I agree that there was maybe not enough of Erio/Caro/Fate scenes in StS the anime, but there was plenty of those in the manga and the soundstages. There was even a full soundstage dedicated to Nanoha spending time with Vivio and raising her on her own, mixed with track about Caro/ Erio and Fate worrying about their bonds and how they should interacted with each others.
Eventually, by the end of StS they all find an answer and made a real step forward. Just listen to SSX, even Caro and Erio's colleague speak of Fate as their mother and nobody object.
I think they made a pretty decent job on that aspect :uhoh:.
As for Fate/Vivio moments, they were also justified by the fact that Nanoha was just unable to take care of Vivio by herself. Fate is skilled when it comes to children (as said Subaru, she already got a lot of experience due to Caro and Erio) and she is Nanoha's best friend. Plus when you think that they already lived together at that time, it only makes sens that she spent time with Vivio...
It would have been strange in the other hand not to make them interact, at least a bit. And I personnaly don't think that we saw too much of them together :uhoh:.
I can get the same pseudo plot with A's with only 1/2 of the cast as well. The fact that I can rewrite it doesn't make those characters that I ditch unnecessary.
The main difference is that A's doesn't have people concurrently complaining about the same stuffs. So if they like it, leave it as it is.
And you're right. Those are major points that would need to be looked at in a rewrite. However, that doesn't mean that we should ignore the other irrelevant scenes. One of the main priorities for example is the complaint that Erio and Caro weren't developed so well. And who do we need to develop them? Fate.
As we have discussed before, the way the StrikerS plot was set up, as far as relationships go the story was supposed to have been about the relationship between Fate taking care of Erio and Caro, and Nanoha struggling to take care of Vivio. This is evident in the final battles, where it was quite clearly Fate/Erio/Caro and Nanoha/Vivio. Ergo, one of the main priorities would be to have Fate with Erio and Caro, so you can see their bond and have the final battle create more meaning.
What this means is simple: Less Fate/Nanoha/Vivio, more Fate/Erio/Caro. The relationship between Fate and Vivio mattered nothing in the final battle, so really apart from a few token NanoFate 'daaaaw' scenes, there really is no need to concentrate on this, and in fact only works counterproductive
Erio and Caro weren't very important for the plot, and it seems like your average fans don't feel the necessity to involve them too, but Subaru and Teana at the other side were fine, so you may as well shaft the first two characters if you want and take another route to show Fate's maternal abilities, for example just with Vivio, along with many other possibilities. Anyway I'll not start a debate about a possible scenario without 2/3 of the actual cast of Strikers and discuss every detail of it, since this is never going to happen.
The Happy Family plot was one of the few good things of Strikers, or at least one of the most enjoyed by your average fan and it was one of the most representative things of the whole series as an image. It showed us how the bonds of friendship and love between Nanoha developed from when they were nine, this is one of the main points of the series in my opinion and removing that would be a great error and not very appreciated by the fans. So if something works leave it as it is, fix the problems with a course of actions that doesn't affect the qualities.
Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)
What this means is simple: Less Fate/Nanoha/Vivio, more Fate/Erio/Caro. The relationship between Fate and Vivio mattered nothing in the final battle, so really apart from a few token NanoFate 'daaaaw' scenes, there really is no need to concentrate on this, and in fact only works counterproductive.
After some thought - You have to remember, Vivio took a liking to Fate as well. It would seem kind of awkward to not have any Fate/Vivio moments(Referring to the scene with Lindy) considering the events that took place before it. Unless you intend they discard the other parts as well, I don't really see the need to discard that particular one. Afterall, it was a few minutes at most. Caro and Erio needed more focus, but that was impeded by several factors which could have been avoided. In short, there are far too many things in StrikerS that lacked a purpose to only blame a single thing.
I'm not blaming a single thing, I have already admitted several times that there is a myrad of things that are responsible. However, denying that the excessive NanoFate is among those things as hypocritical. I'm not saying that NanoFate should disappear, I'm just saying that just as there were several training scenes that got in the way of screentime for character development, there were several NanoFate (or in the case in question, Fate/Vivio) scenes that got in the way.
Pinning Fate to Vivio and showing little to no Fate/Erio/Caro made the final battle feel odd. The final battle was all about Nanoha saving Vivio and Fate getting the strength she needed from the kids she raised. The later was weakly present because we never really gotten to see the relationship between the three, and the former had no Fate at all, thereby rendering all the Fate/Vivio scenes largely irrelevant, as it was all about Nanoha saving Vivio.
As for the scene in question, it was nearly two minutes. As an editor, I used to claw to get those few seconds I needed to make an episode fit. A scene of nearly two minutes is a considerable time when you're working with limited timeframes. Considering the situation, I would have prioritized the villains in screentime. Lord knows they need every single second they can get.
I'm not blaming a single thing, I have already admitted several times that there is a myrad of things that are responsible. However, denying that the excessive NanoFate is among those things as hypocritical. I'm not saying that NanoFate should disappear, I'm just saying that just as there were several training scenes that got in the way of screentime for character development, there were several NanoFate (or in the case in question, Fate/Vivio) scenes that got in the way.
I think developing the bonds of Nanoha/Fate/Vivio family was one of the main points of Strikers, if you sacrifice those scenes to develop secondary characters then are those secondary characters who are getting in the way. If you want to give them some character development, first think fit they are necessary for the plot, if you're secure about it, then start cropping for what the fans don't like.
Pinning Fate to Vivio and showing little to no Fate/Erio/Caro made the final battle feel odd. The final battle was all about Nanoha saving Vivio and Fate getting the strength she needed from the kids she raised. The later was weakly present because we never really gotten to see the relationship between the three, and the former had no Fate at all, thereby rendering all the Fate/Vivio scenes largely irrelevant, as it was all about Nanoha saving Vivio.
Fate's part was just fine in my opinion, so was Nanoha's, but it had been better if they had chosen to bring the two of them together to emphasize their bond with Vivio, but since they put a bunch of villains it wasn't possible and we got this.
Also, making the battles indoors was a major mistake too.
As for the scene in question, it was nearly two minutes. As an editor, I used to claw to get those few seconds I needed to make an episode fit. A scene of nearly two minutes is a considerable time when you're working with limited timeframes. Considering the situation, I would have prioritized the villains in screentime. Lord knows they need every single second they can get.
I think you're fighting for a few minutes of something that the public adored when you can easily get a pair of hours of screentime from whole episodes.
Cuídate y sigue sonriendo :)
I'm not blaming a single thing, I have already admitted several times that there is a myrad of things that are responsible. However, denying that the excessive NanoFate is among those things as hypocritical. I'm not saying that NanoFate should disappear, I'm just saying that just as there were several training scenes that got in the way of screentime for character development, there were several NanoFate (or in the case in question, Fate/Vivio) scenes that got in the way.
You may have mentioned other factors, but you're still making NanoFate your main focus. 7arcs was baffled with what they wanted to do with StrikerS and because of this, they did a little bit of everything, but not enough of most things. Subaru waking Teana up via. fondling her breasts certainly was unnecessary, but hey, they did it anyways. There are dozens more instances that totally had no point to the premise, but atleast it gave the fans something to talk about. StrikerS still could have been a great series with all those extra elements, if only the scripting took a different path. With that, I'll revert back to my prior statement - 7arcs should not have amassed such a character cast on such short notice. Some of these characters should have been fleshed out in previous sequels before directing themselves towards StrikerS.
Comartemis
2009-03-12, 16:13
Aw, not this again.
*Picks up Haru, Demi, and Kero by the collars and chucks them into the relationship thread*
I'm going to stop responding to Haru now. I was hoping for a discussion on the editing of the series, but as usual any conversation with Haru degenerates into the canonicity and strength of NanoFate, something which I promised not to debate with him ever again.
Just one thing Haru: You can't expect that freeing up time in the 4th episode automatically makes the 16th run better, episodic editing doesn't work that way. Your way of editing works for movies, but not for series. For series, you have to look at each individual episode and wonder 'which scenes are needed?' 'what do these scenes add?' 'can I remove this scene?' 'if I place this here, what relevance does it have to the event X?'
I agree that there was maybe not enough of Erio/Caro/Fate scenes in StS the anime, but there was plenty of those in the manga and the soundstages. There was even a full soundstage dedicated to Nanoha spending time with Vivio and raising her on her own, mixed with track about Caro/ Erio and Fate worrying about their bonds and how they should interacted with each others.
Eventually, by the end of StS they all find an answer and made a real step forward. Just listen to SSX, even Caro and Erio's colleague speak of Fate as their mother and nobody object.
I think they made a pretty decent job on that aspect :uhoh:.
Personally, I believe they got the order mixed up at times. Scenes that are important to the plot belong in the anime, and the fanservice to the manga and Sound Stages. Such as chapter 9, which has Erio development, Caro development and even foreshadowing on Subaru's status as a Cyborg. That was one chapter that really should have been in the anime, as it added so many things.
As for Fate/Vivio moments, they were also justified by the fact that Nanoha was just unable to take care of Vivio by herself. Fate is skilled when it comes to children (as said Subaru, she already got a lot of experience due to Caro and Erio) and she is Nanoha's best friend. Plus when you think that they already lived together at that time, it only makes sens that she spent time with Vivio...
I don't mind Fate helping Nanoha taking care of Vivio, what I do mind is practically dropping Erio and Caro in order to take care of Vivio with Nanoha, which is the impression one gets when watching the anime.
I've always been of the opinion that Fate should have taken more of a mentor stance. More teaching Nanoha to take care of Vivio (which, really, is a vault of NanoFate fanservice) and less taking care of Vivio herself.
And I personnaly don't think that we saw too much of them together :uhoh:.
Naw, we didn't, but when I commented on Fate tending to have useless screentime in StrikerS, that was the first scene that sprung to mind. Mostly because it was long, and didn't add anything.
You may have mentioned other factors, but you're still making NanoFate your main focus.
I'm making it my main focus because there are claims that the NanoFate had nothing to do with it. If you want me to type a list of things that were wrong, I'm glad to do so, but in the end all that will be contested as not belonging on the list, and thus, receive the main focus, is the NanoFate. It's not entirely my fault that this becomes the main focus. you easily say 'well, you have a point' or 'no, I don't agree' and leave it at that, but if you contest and say 'no, you're wrong and here's why' then the one who is making NanoFate the focus is not me, but you.
It has happened more times then I can count that what was meant to be a simple side-comment about NanoFate got drawn out of proportion into a full-blown debate. More often then not by Haru, who just can't any comment, no matter how small, about NanoFate slide.
With that, I'll revert back to my priot comment - 7arcs should not have amassed such a character cast on such short notice. Some of these characters should have been fleshed out in previous sequels before directing themselves towards StrikerS.
That is another way to handle it. A good one too, in my opinion.
Only problem is: Fleshing them out before StrikerS means that there won't be any Aces. In other words: No Fate either.
I don't mind Fate helping Nanoha taking care of Vivio, what I do mind is practically dropping Erio and Caro in order to take care of Vivio with Nanoha, which is the impression one gets when watching the anime.
And that's what I said it's a mostly a mistake. There were plenty of instances to develop them as we have said, you don't need to change the very welcomed NanoFate scenes for the ones you're proposing if you can get whole episodes of screentime if you remove the boring filler. You can also remove many characters, so you didn't really need to include them and develop them all sacrificing precious screen time.
I've always been of the opinion that Fate should have taken more of a mentor stance. More teaching Nanoha to take care of Vivio (which, really, is a vault of NanoFate fanservice) and less taking care of Vivio herself.
Considering the progressive development of their relationship until the point of sharing what we can call as the life of a "married couple", it makes sense that both of them take care of Vivio, it would be weird otherwise, and was something accepted for the fans, so I think it was the correct thing to do.
Cuídense y sigan sorniendo :)
I'm making it my main focus because there are claims that the NanoFate had nothing to do with it. If you want me to type a list of things that were wrong, I'm glad to do so, but in the end all that will be contested as not belonging on the list, and thus, receive the main focus, is the NanoFate. It's not entirely my fault that this becomes the main focus. you easily say 'well, you have a point' or 'no, I don't agree' and leave it at that, but if you contest and say 'no, you're wrong and here's why' then the one who is making NanoFate the focus is not me, but you.
Well, I'm merely stating a opinion. When you claim NanoFate as recycled material, I tend to disagree. As I don't know what I would have done without those moments to enjoy. :heh:
That is another way to handle it. A good one too, in my opinion.
Only problem is: Fleshing them out before StrikerS means that there won't be any Aces. In other words: No Fate either.
That's questionable. I mean, if Fate takes care of Erio and Caro, she's kind of a needed element. The same as Nanoha is a needed element for Subaru as she rescued her when she was a child. They can delve deeper into each characters backstory before they meet the aces, but that's not the only thing that needed improvement.
And either way, as I've said, so long as Fate continues to stay a part of the franchise, I don't mind if the focus Isn't directed towards her from time to time. More focus on other characters earlier would have opened more moments for the instances I truly enjoyed in StrikerS later.:D
Well, I'm merely stating a opinion. When you claim NanoFate as recycled material, I tend to disagree. As I don't know what I would have done without those moments to enjoy. :heh:
Did I claim them to be recycled..? Mreh, whatever, if I did I withdraw that statement. I don't like the term 'recycled material' myself. I don't see NanoFate material as recycled, I'm just saying that some of the scenes and scenarios were interfering with the separate plotlines for both characters.
That's questionable. I mean, if Fate takes care of Erio and Caro, she's kind of a needed element. The same as Nanoha is a needed element for Subaru as she rescued her when she was a child. They can delve deeper into each characters backstory before they meet the aces, but that's not the only thing that needed improvement.
And either way, as I've said, so long as Fate continues to stay a part of the franchise, I don't mind if the focus Isn't directed towards her from time to time. More focus on other characters earlier will open more moments for the instances I truly enjoyed in StrikerS.:D
Hmm, well Erio and Caro sure, but Teana and Subaru's story would most likely be a pain for you to follow, as bar the rescue of Nanoha the Aces vanish out of their lives untill StrikerS.
Hmm, well Erio and Caro sure, but Teana and Subaru's story would most likely be a pain for you to follow, as bar the rescue of Nanoha the Aces vanish out of their lives.
I think with Subaru it would have been good to show flashbacks of Nanoha saving Subaru, and then have some Ova or whatever to show Subaru's ambitions and how she progressed to the point where she could see Nanoha again. Teana can follow the same path to be a enforcer but for a different reason.
That'd mean animating what happened in the manga, doesn't it? That could work.
AtomicoX
2009-03-12, 16:57
I don't see where they would have gotten the time or money for that though...or even market interest.
I don't see where they would have gotten the time or money for that though...or even market interest.
If they're going to do any experimenting, I'd prefer it to stay in manga territory. It's cheaper and safer.
That'd mean animating what happened in the manga, doesn't it? That could work.
I....I, havn't read the manga.:uhoh:
I don't see where they would have gotten the time or money for that though...or even market interest.
Only a few one-shot Ova's. You would think there be enough fans of each characters to profit enough to atleast break even. And it would have left StrikerS with many more possibilities at that point.
AtomicoX
2009-03-12, 17:05
Only a few one-shot Ova's. You would think there be enough fans of each characters to profit enough to atleast break even. And it would have left StrikerS with many more possibilities at that point.
Profit, perhaps, but more like the Time doesn't justify Reward. The focus they would have to put down on an OVA would be less or vice-versa, the series gets less focus.
I'm just theorizing though.
I....I, havn't read the manga.:uhoh:
Well, it has exactly what you proposed for Teana and Subaru. :p
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-03-12, 17:28
Erio and Caro weren't very important for the plot,
Apparently we were watching two different series then. The characters of Erio and Caro were important to the plot of the StrikerS TV series as well as the development of various new and returning characters. In the series that were the primary rivals to Lutecia and to her development for breaking free from Jail's control.
Also they were crucial in expanding upon the character Fate's social development between A's and MC077. They provided a look into how Fate grew and how her past affected her outlook on life and the lives of those around her. Not only that but they prove to be a key factor in her final fight against Jail, providing her with the needed support to overcome her own inner demons to defeat her opponents.
I would hardly call them not important. :rolleyes:
AtomicoX
2009-03-12, 17:30
In other words, without them, Fate would not be post-StrikerS Fate as we know her.
Unless I misunderstood something awful by Eva's post...
Erio and Caro were also two vital characters in teaching fate the trials of motherhood. Without them, no Fate-mama.
Apparently we were watching two different series then. The characters of Erio and Caro were important to the plot of the StrikerS TV series as well as the development of various new and returning characters. In the series that were the primary rivals to Lutecia and to her development for breaking free from Jail's control.
That's mostly independent of the main plot, that's why I said we may as well remove that branch if we were to rebuild the whole series.
Erio and Caro were also two vital characters in teaching fate the trials of motherhood. Without them, no Fate-mama.
Also they were crucial in expanding upon the character Fate's social development between A's and MC077. They provided a look into how Fate grew and how her past affected her outlook on life and the lives of those around her.
I proposed to do it another way, just with Vivio and maybe with Chrono's twins. Or simply with the kids but don't giving the characters the importance they gave in Strikers. There are a lot of possibilities, be creative.
Not only that but they prove to be a key factor in her final fight against Jail, providing her with the needed support to overcome her own inner demons to defeat her opponents.
I said that having her fighting along with Nanoha would have been better, so that scenario would not be like the one you mentioned.
Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)
AtomicoX
2009-03-12, 17:41
I said that having her fighting along with Nanoha would have been better, so that scenario would not be like the one you mentioned.
If that would have happened, the plan they had would have failed, the doc would have lived and everything would have started over. [BAD END]
If that would have happened, the plan they had would have failed, the doc would have lived and everything would have started over. [BAD END]
I was thinking in a different scenario, including removing all the unnecessary characters. The fights for the conclusion of StrikerS would also have been probably sequentially, or at least the most of them, not simultaneously, something big like the end of A's would be a good idea I think, in open spaces and giving more importance to characters like Hayate that the fans wanted to see in action.
Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-03-12, 17:50
That's mostly independent of the main plot, that's why I said we may as well remove that branch if we were to rebuild the whole series.
Actually, removing the Lutecia plot would lead to an underdevelopment of Fate as well. During their various encounters with the other Summoner they spoke about and were driven by the life lessons taught to them by Fate whom was drawing upon her own personal experiences and not wanting for them to grow up with the hardships she had endured.
I proposed to do it another way, just with Vivio and maybe with Chrono's twins. Or simply with the kids but don't giving the characters the importance they gave in Strikers. There are a lot of possibilities, be creative.
With Vivio that point would be moot as Fate would have had to way to develop herself as a person with no interaction with children or a way to see her own faults in her desires versus what she is actually able to do. And with Chrono's twins we know that Amy is caring for them (having either changed positions or retired from the TSAB). With Fate's position as Enforcer it would not provide much time other than maybe the occasional visit. Not to mention dealing with someone else's children is quite different than dealing with your own as many, many people will tell you. Additionally Fate's own failures as a 'parent' (taking the title but not the complete responsibility) proves to be a development point for her own character in the series.
I said that having her fighting along with Nanoha would have been better, so that scenario would not be like the one you mentioned.
Which would not be quite possible when you have both of them fighting for their own lives at their very best. Given the mental state of Vivio during the encounter I doubt she would have given Nanoha any time to communicate with Fate during that crucial moment when she was restrained by Jail. Not to mention the internal defense systems of the Cradle made external communications impossible.
Actually, removing the Lutecia plot would lead to an underdevelopment of Fate as well. During their various encounters with the other Summoner they spoke about and were driven by the life lessons taught to them by Fate whom was drawing upon her own personal experiences and not wanting for them to grow up with the hardships she had endured.
That's why I said you can develop Fate other ways, just be creative, Caro/Erio/Lutecia weren't necessary for this or the main plot, but you can still use them if you don't want to remove those characters.
Which would not be quite possible when you have both of them fighting for their own lives at their very best. Given the mental state of Vivio during the encounter I doubt she would have given Nanoha any time to communicate with Fate during that crucial moment when she was restrained by Jail. Not to mention the internal defense systems of the Cradle made external communications impossible.
I think it would have been better to have a fight in open spaces, so no a fight inside the Cradle or underground as I said in my previous post. Nanoha and Fate went through the same route.
Cuídense y sigan sorniendo :)
AtomicoX
2009-03-12, 18:07
That's why I said you can develop Fate other ways, just be creative, Caro/Erio/Lutecia weren't necessary for this or the main plot, but you can still use them if you don't want to remove those characters.
I do wonder what your main plot would be then...seeing as they all played an important role.
Although I can already guess...
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-03-12, 18:08
I think it would have been better to have a fight in open spaces, so no a fight inside the Cradle or underground as I said in my previous post. Nanoha and Fate went through the same route.
If you want to give them an advantage, then yes. Open spaces is where they excel at. However, Jail is a villain. He is a crazy, but smart one and knows this. If you want to win you use whatever you have to your advantage. Even more so that he is evil and can be sneaky and underhanded in what he chooses to do. In this case he manages to lure them to enclose areas that is HIS home turf in order to take them out and keep them from ruining his grand plans. Also not having the Vivio/Nanoha final fight inside the Cradle would go against the build up and background given in the series. As Vivio is, in a sense, the key to operate the Cradle having her in a non-secure location outside of the Cradle would mean the Cradle would not be operational and thus against Jail's plan. Plus for designers of the Cradle to make the 'throne' outside rather then deep within for the 'key' to sit would be...well stupid.
TheShinySword
2009-03-12, 18:11
Here's the dealio. Here's why Nanoha and Fate needed to have their separate scenes in the end. If Fate had been there Nanoha's arc would have been absolutely useless. Nanoha's story in StrikerS is not about making a happy family it's about going from being person-who-looks-after-Vivio to becoming "Mama". The scene is the climax of her character arc and if Fate had been there to support her it would have lost all power, Nanoha wouldn't have learned anything but to rely on Fate for all mothering. When push comes to shove it is Nanoha who is Vivio's mother, not Fate (whether Fate is also a parent is an entirely other fact that has been debated many times (though she definitely does not have the same relationship in StrikerS with Vivio as Nanoha does arcwise) and I am not getting into).
Things wouldn't have worked in a different scenario. If Erio and Caro hadn't existed then Fate wouldn't know how to be a mother. If Fate didn't know how to be a mother she wouldn't be able to act as example/contrast mama for Nanoha and Nanoha would have lost the necessary character development and happy family wouldn't be able to exist. Erio and Caro are needed for Fate to develop into the character she is. Her niece and nephew wouldn't have worked, she needed her own kids in order to gain the knowledge and experience to help Nanoha with Vivio.
If you want to give them an advantage, then yes. Open spaces is where they excel at. However, Jail is a villain. He is a crazy, but smart one and knows this. If you want to win you use whatever you have to your advantage. Even more so that he is evil and can be sneaky and underhanded in what he chooses to do. In this case he manages to lure them to enclose areas that is HIS home turf in order to take them out and keep them from ruining his grand plans.
Yes, that's very logic considering the canon scenario and his personality, so to bring the fight out you should change one or the other thing.
Also not having the Vivio/Nanoha final fight inside the Cradle would go against the build up and background given in the series. As Vivio is, in a sense, the key to operate the Cradle having her in a non-secure location outside of the Cradle would mean the Cradle would not be operational and thus against Jail's plan. Plus for designers of the Cradle to make the 'throne' outside rather then deep within for the 'key' to sit would be...well stupid.
Yes, you should have to change that as well I think... but I'm not going to write the full script of the new series ^^U
Here's the dealio. Here's why Nanoha and Fate needed to have their separate scenes in the end. If Fate had been there Nanoha's arc would have been absolutely useless. Nanoha's story in StrikerS is not about making a happy family it's about going from being person-who-looks-after-Vivio to becoming "Mama". The scene is the climax of her character arc and if Fate had been there to support her it would have lost all power, Nanoha wouldn't have learned anything but to rely on Fate for all mothering.
You can make it work as well, if not better with the two of them and Vivio, that way both will got the same importance in the scene and the acceptance of Vivio. The motherhood of Nanoha and Fate can be learned through the time goes.
Things wouldn't have worked in a different scenario. If Erio and Caro hadn't existed then Fate wouldn't know how to be a mother. If Fate didn't know how to be a mother she wouldn't be able to act as example/contrast mama for Nanoha and Nanoha would have lost the necessary character development and happy family wouldn't be able to exist. Erio and Caro are needed for Fate to develop into the character she is. Her niece and nephew wouldn't have worked, she needed her own kids in order to gain the knowledge and experience to help Nanoha with Vivio.
Yes, but there are plenty of ways to develop Fate as a mother previously to Strikers. You can keep using Erio and Caro if you want children without parents, but you don't need to make them so important in Strikers.
Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-03-12, 18:32
Yes, that's very logic considering the canon scenario and his personality, so to bring the fight out you should change one or the other thing.
What is there to change? The build up for Jail's plan of activating and using the ancient Cradle had been building up since the start of the series. Actually, even before with him collecting Relics in the manga. Vivio was introduced and was already determined to be an artificial mage, an integral part of Jail's plans. Hell, RF6 wouldn't have even been formed if it wasn't for Jail's ultimate plan of using the Cradle. Plus Jail holds all the cards in the end. Yes, Nanoha can demand them to come out and fight. But they have Vivio. They have a massive, ancient battleship armed to the teeth with weapons and mobile weapon platforms. They don't have to do anything. If Nanoha wants to save Vivio, she needed to go in and save her herself which is what she did (and also further develops her character). The same does with Fate. Jail is deep underground in his lair that was recently discovered. The TSAB has all they have thrown at the Cradle in hopes of stopping it and he knows it. The threat of attacking his lair is moot as he is deep underground and could escape undetected should things not start working out well. That leaves the option to go in after him which Fate does to arrest him as her duty as an Enforcer.
You can make it work as well, if not better with the two of them and Vivio, that way both will got the same importance in the scene and the acceptance of Vivio. The motherhood of Nanoha and Fate can be learned through the time goes.
Except that is not the point. The contrasting between the parenting habits of Nanoha and Fate is used to provide various development points for the both of them. nanoha, who has zero experience is going why what she believes to be the best course of action while Fate, who has had some experience contrasts Nanoha. They also both learn more about being a good parent drawing from their current envisioning of the roll and current experiences.
TheShinySword
2009-03-12, 18:35
You can make it work as well, if not better with the two of them and Vivio, that way both will got the same importance in the scene and the acceptance of Vivio. The motherhood of Nanoha and Fate can be learned through the time goes.
But (that part of) StrikerS isn't about Nanoha and Fate becoming mothers it's about Nanoha becoming a mother. If Fate is there it would ruin that story that has been worked on up to then. Vivio wasn't the only one who needed to stand on her own, Nanoha had to become a mama in her own right to complete her arc.
Evangelion Xgouki
2009-03-12, 18:38
But (that part of) StrikerS isn't about Nanoha and Fate becoming mothers it's about Nanoha becoming a mother. If Fate is there it would ruin that story that has been worked on up to then. Vivio wasn't the only one who needed to stand on her own, Nanoha had to become a mama in her own right to complete her arc.
It also provides a contrast. While Fate was seeing how Nanoha and Vivio interacted as mother/child she saw how she wasn't fulfilling that roll with her own children. While her intent was good she didn't see how her execution of it was bad until Vivio began interacting with Nanoha. From that point we see how Fate develops and learns from this to try and improve her relationship with Caro and Erio. Character development is a very important aspect.
What is there to change? The build up for Jail's plan of activating and using the ancient Cradle had been building up since the start of the series. Actually, even before with him collecting Relics in the manga. Vivio was introduced and was already determined to be an artificial mage, an integral part of Jail's plans. Hell, RF6 wouldn't have even been formed if it wasn't for Jail's ultimate plan of using the Cradle. Plus Jail holds all the cards in the end. Yes, Nanoha can demand them to come out and fight. But they have Vivio. They have a massive, ancient battleship armed to the teeth with weapons and mobile weapon platforms. They don't have to do anything. If Nanoha wants to save Vivio, she needed to go in and save her herself which is what she did (and also further develops her character). The same does with Fate. Jail is deep underground in his lair that was recently discovered. The TSAB has all they have thrown at the Cradle in hopes of stopping it and he knows it. The threat of attacking his lair is moot as he is deep underground and could escape undetected should things not start working out well. That leaves the option to go in after him which Fate does to arrest him as her duty as an Enforcer.
In the worst case you can rebuild everything from zero. I'm not going to explain every detail of a possible universe because it's not going to be written.
Except that is not the point. The contrasting between the parenting habits of Nanoha and Fate is used to provide various development points for the both of them. nanoha, who has zero experience is going why what she believes to be the best course of action while Fate, who has had some experience contrasts Nanoha. They also both learn more about being a good parent drawing from their current envisioning of the roll and current experiences.
Yes, but in my opinion a scenario with the two of them would have a better appealing for the fans. That may be the point.
But (that part of) StrikerS isn't about Nanoha and Fate becoming mothers it's about Nanoha becoming a mother. If Fate is there it would ruin that story that has been worked on up to then. Vivio wasn't the only one who needed to stand on her own, Nanoha had to become a mama in her own right to complete her arc.
The reason to change that was to give same importance from Vivio to the both of them, and not give a major role to Nanoha in this part of the story.
Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)
In other words, more family moments between Nanoha Fate and Vivio because it puts Nanoha and Fate together, while sacrificing both of their development, undercutting their depth and stagnating them in the same position that has been shown many many times before.
I haven't thought before about how much worst StrikerS could get but your words certainly remind me of those possibilities.
Comartemis
2009-03-12, 22:29
Enough already. Take this discussion to the Relationship thread before I get a mod in here. You have one post to comply.
In other words, more family moments between Nanoha Fate and Vivio because it puts Nanoha and Fate together, while sacrificing both of their development, undercutting their depth and stagnating them in the same position that has been shown many many times before.
I haven't thought before about how much worst StrikerS could get but your words certainly remind me of those possibilities.
What harm one man's delusional mind can do?
Ported from the image thread:
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Smokie1/nanohaattributes01.jpg?t=1255032102
No, Fate's defense is not crap. You don't become a great melee fighter with sucky defense, Keroko.
*bites tongue* I could go on a very long rant, but long story short, yes you can be. Superior fencing skills and superior agility skills, for one. Which, ironically, are what Fate uses.
Fate's defensive spells are fine. She successfully shielded herself, with a magic shield, from one of Nanoha's best blast attacks in their final battle in the original Nanoha anime.
I don't see any evidence at all that Fate has "low defensive spells". Just because Fate dodges a lot doesn't mean she has "low defensive spells". That's like saying that since Superman dodges attacks sometimes, he can't withstand them. No, it's just that he instinctively dodges, or he doesn't want to risk the attacks hurting him if he doesn't know how potent they are.
Also, in Fate's case, why waste magic energy making shields when she's so good at dodging?
The question you should be asking is "If Fate's defensive spells are fine, why does she repeatedly say otherwise herself?" Even after the cartridge upgrade, Fate noted that the only way to defeat Signum was to concentrate on dodging rather than defending.
Finally, a defense value should count for more than just "defensive spells". It should count for physical defense as well. Fate uses Bardiche very well as a defensive weapon at times.
Like I said. Fencing skills. However, that goes to blur the lines, as by that logic we can just as easily call dodging defense.
... And Nanoha got dropped by a single punch from Vivio in their fight. So... what's your point?
Yes, a Vivio powered by the Cradle's reactor, who's attacks have been noted to be on the insane level.
Fate, on the other hand, got told by every single opponent she faced that one single hit in Sonic Form, even a glancing one, would be the end of her. And here's the beauty: Fate concurred.
However, a point I will agree with you is that her defense could be a bit higher. The Barrier Jacket she is wearing -her StrikerS one- has been noted to have a higher defensive stat. However, her defense is very much lower than Nanoha's. I'd place it around the middle mark, perhaps one point below it. Sonic form would drop the line to the bottom.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-09, 03:44
I'll drag my comment over here too..
If you're going to match them up...
It matches up as thus in canon.
Fate Favors speedblitzing over tanking and precision over power. She starts out towards the balanced end of the spectrum, but favors rotating her stats to a speed and firepower edge as she 'powers up'. Emphasising her desire to hit first, hit hard, and be gone before the return fire. Her specialty would be strike.
Signum, as a classic full warrior case, favors an ideal balance. If anything, Signum is the Mario of the group. Her speed is balanced with her defense, armor, skills and power. She excels in nothing, but can handle everything equally well. She'd be an ideal escort.
Nanoha is a tank. She favors blasting her opponents until they give up, maneuvering a little, simply shrugging off what she does get hit with and keeps on trucking. Her firepower is strong and balances with her defenses. Prolonged assault is right up her ally.
Hayate said it herself. She's absurd in close combat. She's a glass cannon. She's a cute artillery piece that suffers from a severe issue if you get inside her attack sphere. She's field artillery.
I would also like to add that when the term 'drop' is used in combat. It means to permenantly neutralize. Meaning to knock out for the duration, or kill... depending on the threat/force level you're at.
Nanoha was most certainly not DROPPED by Vivio during the fight on the Cradle. Vivio certainly waled on her a lot, but at no time was Nanoha down for the count that wasn't deliberate stalling for her W.A.S.
Triple_R
2009-10-09, 04:00
Ported from the image thread:
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Smokie1/nanohaattributes01.jpg?t=1255032102
*bites tongue* I could go on a very long rant, but long story short, yes you can be.
No, you can't be. You really can't be. Not unless your agility and speed are off the charts... and I don't think that Fate is *that* good. To be a good melee fighter, you have to be able to take a hit, and come back strong. And Fate has. Numerous times.
Superior fencing skills and superior agility skills, for one. Which, ironically, are what Fate uses.
Fate also uses defensive maneuvers and defensive magic.
The question you should be asking is "If Fate's defensive spells are fine, why does she repeatedly say otherwise herself?"
Feats trumps character's appraisals of themselves. Every time.
Feats are iron clad evidence right in front of our eyes. Character appraisals can be very unreliable, due to either arrogance or humility.
Fate is a very humble person. This comes across a lot. It's quite possible for her to be underrating herself, as such.
Even after the cartridge upgrade, Fate noted that the only way to defeat Signum was to concentrate on dodging rather than defending.
Well... that's Signum. That's the best pure melee fighter on the show. The same would hold true for Nanoha trying to defeat Signum, frankly.
Yes, a Vivio powered by the Cradle's reactor, who's attacks have been noted to be on the insane level.
Again... noted. Said to be. That's not something to base a whole lot on. You base things on feats, imo. Did Vivio lift a 50 ton object, for example? Is there any ironclad reason to put a punch from Vivio at a higher level than an energy blast from Scaglietti?
Fate, on the other hand, got told by every single opponent she faced that one single hit in Sonic Form, even a glancing one, would be the end of her. And here's the beauty: Fate concurred.
Opponents trash-talking Fate is supposed to count for something? And Fate concurring in order to not get drawn into a pointless debate in the middle of a fight, is supposed to count for something?
I don't think that it does.
However, a point I will agree with you is that her defense could be a bit higher. The Barrier Jacket she is wearing -her StrikerS one- has been noted to have a higher defensive stat. However, her defense is very much lower than Nanoha's. I'd place it around the middle mark, perhaps one point below it. Sonic form would drop the line to the bottom.
Again, I really don't see any reason to rate Fate's defense below Nanoha's.
If anything, Nanoha's defense is more questionable in my mind. I've seen an awful lot take down Nanoha's magic shields - Vivio's punches, Vita's Graf Eisen, etc...
That being said, I appreciate you trying to meet me half-way, anyway. :)
Thinking about it even more... I'd put Fate's defense on par with Nanoha's, but increase Nanoha's agility a bit. Nanoha was hanging with Fate, speed-wise/maneuverability-wise, pretty good in their original anime fights.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-09, 04:17
I would point out several things here.
Defense refers to the ability to withstand a hit and not take damage. Like Armor on a tank.
Fate's 'armor' (active defenses) is not very powerful, thus she doesn't rely on it. Especially after Nanoha made it clear in season when she was overpowered by Starlight Breaker Prototype.
Taking a blow as you would reffer to it as Fate taking damage and getting back up is not defense, but a stat that is similar to endurance. (Damage Absorbtion)
Likewise, the ability to parry blows in melee or deflect them is not defense in the sense being used here, but skill.
As for your downplay of nanoha's defense levels, you're equating a cross spectrum, cross timeline series of completely isolated events and applying them to a universal context that does not exist.
When Vita smashed Nanoha's barrier, she did so with a cartridge powered, rocket boosted hammer attack designed specificly for jack-hammering right through a barrier against a Nanoha who had not upgraded to matching equipment. (She had not leveled up yet one could say.) Note that later on, Vita never broke Nanoha's defenses.
When Nanoha was fighting Uber Vivio in the Cradle, she was severely hampered by a high density AMF field, stressed, exhausted, and holding herself back to buy time for her WAS to located Quattro. Note that despite the barrier getting busted, Nanoha was not put out of the fight thanks to a combination of her secondary defense (barrier jacket) and some Epic level Endurance on her part. She was under all those handicapping factors, and was still tanking Vivio attacks.
You cannot ignore these factors in determining Nanoha's defense. It is a Hasty Generalizaton Fallacy, Composition Fallacy, and Biassed Sample Fallacy all rolled into a neat little package and served with a side of Straw Man Fallacy.
No, you can't be. You really can't be. Not unless your agility and speed are off the charts... and I don't think that Fate is *that* good. To be a good melee fighter, you have to be able to take a hit, and come back strong. And Fate has. Numerous times.
Yes you can, and Fate proves it. You talked about how feats thrumps character appraisals... to a degree I agree, however let's deal with that later. For now, let's focus on said feats. Note how Fate, in every battle she lost, started to lose the moment she stopped dodging and began blocking. Fate versus Nanoha, Fate versus Signum, Fate versus Tre, in all of those battles the moment where she started blocking was the moment she started to lose.
This is also strike one against Fate's defenses being on the same level as Nanoha's, as Nanoha has repeatedly blocked very powerful attacks.
Fate also uses defensive maneuvers and defensive magic.
If by defensive maneuvers you mean dodging, that is classified as agility, and defensive magic is the entire point here.
Feats trumps character's appraisals of themselves. Every time.
Feats are iron clad evidence right in front of our eyes. Character appraisals can be very unreliable, due to either arrogance or humility.
And feats can be very deceiving if not backed up with appraisals of the situation. Let's take this example:
Again... noted. Said to be. That's not something to base a whole lot on. You base things on feats, imo. Did Vivio lift a 50 ton object, for example? Is there any ironclad reason to put a punch from Vivio at a higher level than an energy blast from Scaglietti?
Now, the 'Vivio punches Nanoha and knocks her down' feat. What does this feat, on its own, prove? Nothing. One can argue Vivio's attack was insane, one can argue Nanoha's defense was weak. Neither would be right or wrong, because there is no proof to substantiate the claim.
This is where appraisals come in. In this case, the DVD booklets blatantly said the Cradle's reactor boosted Vivio's power to frightening levels. Evidence to substantiate one of the claims has come forth: Vivio's powers are far above normal.
Similarly, dialog can accomplish the same feat. If Nanoha were to have said "Such powerful magic" it would show that Vivio's powers were far above the norm.
In this case, appraisals very much do mean more than feats. Booklets and the like are preferred, of course, since they are more objective, but dialog works too.
Well... that's Signum. That's the best pure melee fighter on the show. The same would hold true for Nanoha trying to defeat Signum, frankly.
Technically, Vita has more power than Signum. Warhammer versus sword and all that, destruction is Vita's specialty. Vita is a better barrier buster than Signum is, yet Fate could not defend herself against Signum's blows, where Nanoha could defend herself against Vita's.
Strike two against Nanoha and Fate having the same defenses.
Opponents trash-talking Fate is supposed to count for something? And Fate concurring in order to not get drawn into a pointless debate in the middle of a fight, is supposed to count for something?
I don't think that it does.
Now you are twisting events to suit your own ends. Please provide some proof that Signum was 'trashtalking' (seriously, can you even imagine Signum doing so?) and even more so, provide evidence that Fate was merely agreeing in order not to get drawn into a pointless debate.
Again, I really don't see any reason to rate Fate's defense below Nanoha's.
Then let me provide you with strike three, proven by your very own feats.
Let's take the best comparison. The Fate versus Nanoha fight. Nanoha managed to block Fate's most powerful attack, with the extra restriction that she was bound while doing so.
Fate, on the other hand, barely managed to block Nanoha's Divine Buster. heck, the shield was already being penetrated by just that blast alone, tearing her Barrier Jacket to shreds. Starlight Breaker completely obliterated it.
Nanoha survived Fate's most powerful attack without a scratch while being bound, while Fate was already almost down for the count by Nanoha's regular attack. Fate lost that battle the moment she stopped dodging and started blocking.
Thinking about it even more... I'd put Fate's defense on par with Nanoha's, but increase Nanoha's agility a bit. Nanoha was hanging with Fate, speed-wise/maneuverability-wise, pretty good in their original anime fights.
Well, Fate definitely has a higher agility. Flash Move allows short bursts of speed but straight line only, Sonic Move allows high speed maneuvering. Also, remember A's where Fate carried Nanoha away from Reinforce's Starlight Breaker. There's no reason to do that unless Fate is simply faster.
Triple_R
2009-10-09, 09:29
Yes you can,
No, you can't. Not unless your agility and speed trumps everybody else's, and Fate's doesn't.
...and Fate proves it.
That's circular reasoning, Keroko. Fate only supports your position if you accept that she has crappy defense... which I don't.
Also, one example is hardly a proof of anything. It could easily be an exception to the rule.
A good melee fighter ought to be able to take a hit, Keroko. Period.
You talked about how feats trumps character appraisals... to a degree I agree,
You don't appear to agree at all. In fact, you actually argue the exact opposite. Your approach is the diametric opposite to the approach that I've seen serious on-line fighting boards take (i.e. boards that debate who would win in a fight between two characters).
...however let's deal with that later. For now, let's focus on said feats. Note how Fate, in every battle she lost, started to lose the moment she stopped dodging and began blocking.
Fate didn't "stop dodging" against Nanoha. She simply got put in a bind. Dodging isn't exactly an option there.
But you see, Keroko... especially in an universe where binds exist, a good melee fighter needs to be able to take a hit. And Fate can... when she hasn't already had her defenses wore down by a divine buster.
Fate versus Nanoha, Fate versus Signum, Fate versus Tre, in all of those battles the moment where she started blocking was the moment she started to lose.
This is also strike one against Fate's defenses being on the same level as Nanoha's, as Nanoha has repeatedly blocked very powerful attacks.
No, this isn't a strike against Fate's defenses being on the same level as Nanoha's. The destructive power of Nanoha's Divine Buster is at least on the same level as the very basic physical assaults that Vita used to break through Nanoha's shields.
If by defensive maneuvers you mean dodging,
I mean using Bardiche to block physical attacks, and to slice through blast attacks. Fate uses Bardiche as an effective defensive weapon at times.
And feats can be very deceiving if not backed up with appraisals of the situation.
Let's take this example:
Now, the 'Vivio punches Nanoha and knocks her down' feat. What does this feat, on its own, prove? Nothing.
Wrong. It proves that Vivio can knock through Nanoha's shields and proceed to down her in one hit. So, we can then draw comparisons between Vivio and other characters that have done that (most notably Vita).
One can argue Vivio's attack was insane, one can argue Nanoha's defense was weak. Neither would be right or wrong, because there is no proof to substantiate the claim.
You're raising a false dichotomy here.
One can argue that Vivio's attack is very good, while Nanoha's defense is also good, but simply not as good as Vivio's attack. That is exactly what I'm arguing.
This is where appraisals come in. In this case, the DVD booklets blatantly said the Cradle's reactor boosted Vivio's power to frightening levels.
"Frightening levels" is a fairly vague term. Many regular everyday people would find Vita's attacks to have "frightening levels" of power behind them.
Frankly, virtually anything superhuman can be called "frightening".
Evidence to substantiate one of the claims has come forth: Vivio's powers are far above normal.
And what's "normal" in this case?
Similarly, dialog can accomplish the same feat. If Nanoha were to have said "Such powerful magic" it would show that Vivio's powers were far above the norm.
Ah... but Nanoha didn't say that.
In this case, appraisals very much do mean more than feats.
No, they don't.
Appraisals with out feats prove nothing.
Feats with out appraisals at least can point towards something concrete being true and valid.
Technically, Vita has more power than Signum. Warhammer versus sword and all that, destruction is Vita's specialty. Vita is a better barrier buster than Signum is, ...
And what proof do you have of this?
...yet Fate could not defend herself against Signum's blows, where Nanoha could defend herself against Vita's.
...Huh? Nanoha got taken out completely by Vita in their first fight. Fate did much better against Signum in their first fight against each other than Nanoha did against Vita in their first fight against each other.
Strike two against Nanoha and Fate having the same defenses.
:twitch: If anything, comparing Fate/Signum to Nanoha/Vita is a strike against Nanoha's defenses. Nanoha's magical defenses repeatedly fell to Vita's attacks. Meanwhile, Fate was at least able to use Bardiche to parlay some of Signum's attacks.
Now you are twisting events to suit your own ends.
Given that you're using circular reasoning in at least one of your arguments, I don't think that you have much room to talk here.
Please provide some proof that Signum was 'trashtalking' (seriously, can you even imagine Signum doing so?)
Yes, I can absolutely imagine Signum doing so. Signum is noble and stoic, but if she can verbally intimidate her opponent while using words that don't dishonor her, she may very well choose to do so.
... and even more so, provide evidence that Fate was merely agreeing in order not to get drawn into a pointless debate.
Well, this is self-explanatory. It's generally not a good idea to get caught up in verbal jousting of your opponent's creation while you're also in physical combat with your opponent. Fate's smart enough to know that.
Anyway, Keroko, you really have to take what character's themselves say with a huge grain of salt. Characters overrate others (famous example: Batman calling the Ten-Eyes Man the most dangerous man ever :heh:), and underrate others all the time.
Then let me provide you with strike three, proven by your very own feats.
Let's take the best comparison. The Fate versus Nanoha fight. Nanoha managed to block Fate's most powerful attack, with the extra restriction that she was bound while doing so.
Fate, on the other hand, barely managed to block Nanoha's Divine Buster. heck, the shield was already being penetrated by just that blast alone, tearing her Barrier Jacket to shreds. Starlight Breaker completely obliterated it.
Well, here I would argue that Nanoha's offensive blasts are simply more powerful than Fate's. Honestly, I thought that this was self-evident. If Fate's offensive blasts were on par with Nanoha's, why would she take the riskier melee fighter route instead of the safer long-range shooter route?
Fate lost that battle the moment she stopped dodging and started blocking.
Fate lost that battle because she was simply overpowered. With the possible exception of Hayate, Nanoha has the most powerful long-range magic attacks in this entire series. The way Nanoha dealt with Quattro proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Well, Fate definitely has a higher agility. Flash Move allows short bursts of speed but straight line only, Sonic Move allows high speed maneuvering. Also, remember A's where Fate carried Nanoha away from Reinforce's Starlight Breaker. There's no reason to do that unless Fate is simply faster.
I haven't watched that particular A's fight in awhile. I may look at it again to get a better sense of what you're referring to here.
Anyway, in their last battle, Nanoha continually took Fate off-guard, at least once with sheer speed. If there is a difference between them speed-wise, it's very minute.
The real difference between Nanoha and Fate is that Nanoha is a long-range blaster (for the most part) while Fate is a close-quarters melee fighter (for the most part). As such, it makes sense for Nanoha's blasts to be superior to Fate's, and it doesn't make sense at all for Fate's defense to be lower than Nanoha's.
No, you can't. Not unless your agility and speed trumps everybody else's, and Fate's doesn't.
A fighter in cloth with a rapier can win against a fighter in plate with an axe by virtue of being able to strike more quickly. Yes you can.
A good melee fighter ought to be able to take a hit, Keroko. Period.
And yet, I have walked around winning fights without even taking a single hit at all. Curious, wouldn't you say?
Fate didn't "stop dodging" against Nanoha. She simply got put in a bind. Dodging isn't exactly an option there.
Yes she did stop dodging. She stopped dodging the moment Nanoha began her Divine Buster, at that point Fate was not yet in a bind. What Fate did was try to block it, because Nanoha had blocked her attack and she felt she had to do the same.
But you see, Keroko... especially in an universe where binds exist, a good melee fighter needs to be able to take a hit. And Fate can... when she hasn't already had her defenses wore down by a divine buster.
Yes, and this is critical. Fate's defenses had been worn by a single Divine Buster, while Nanoha was still unscratched after taking Fate's most powerful attack. While bound.
No, this isn't a strike against Fate's defenses being on the same level as Nanoha's. The destructive power of Nanoha's Divine Buster is at least on the same level as the very basic physical assaults that Vita used to break through Nanoha's shields.
Source please.
I mean using Bardiche to block physical attacks, and to slice through blast attacks. Fate uses Bardiche as an effective defensive weapon at times.
Very scarcely. And often right before she loses.
Wrong. It proves that Vivio can knock through Nanoha's shields and proceed to down her in one hit. So, we can then draw comparisons between Vivio and other characters that have done that (most notably Vita).
No we can't. That's where the main flaw in saying 'feats trumph all' set in. We don't know how powerful Vivio's attack was, or how strong Nanoha's shields are. Right now all we can do is guess, which is what you are doing. Guess. However guesses are not facts.
You're raising a false dichotomy here.
One can argue that Vivio's attack is very good, while Nanoha's defense is also good, but simply not as good as Vivio's attack. That is exactly what I'm arguing.
In other words: It's more powerful, which is then supported by the booklets placing it far beyond the norm.
"Frightening levels" is a fairly vague term. Many regular everyday people would find Vita's attacks to have "frightening levels" of power behind them.
And what's "normal" in this case?
These are booklets which discuss the casts attacks and call most of Nanoha's move 'powerful.' Frightening in those booklets means frightening to the cast.
Ah... but Nanoha didn't say that.
I'm well aware. That's why I said could. Dialog can be used to explain differences in power, which is why characters speaking about their powers is very important.
No, they don't.
Appraisals with out feats prove nothing.
Feats with out appraisals at least can point towards something concrete being true and valid.
And subjective. Let's take Signum's attack on Fate in A's, the rapid movement one. Say I call it a teleportation, and you a fast movement spell. Which of us is right? At this point, the feat itself proves nothing.
And what proof do you have of this?
Vita's words. Breaking things is hers and Graff Eisen's specialty. Of course there's also supporting that Graff Eisen's design, which just screams "built for breaking" as well as booklets describing Vita's attacks as barrier breakers.
...Huh? Nanoha got taken out completely by Vita in their first fight. Fate did much better against Signum in their first fight against each other than Nanoha did against Vita in their first fight against each other.
I am talking post-cartridge upgrade. Fate couldn't defend against Signum's blows to the point where she had to abandon blocking completely because it was fighting a losing battle.
Given that you're using circular reasoning in at least one of your arguments, I don't think that you have much room to talk here.
Not at all. I am hardly twisting events to suit my needs.
Yes, I can absolutely imagine Signum doing so. Signum is noble and stoic, but if she can verbally intimidate her opponent while using words that don't dishonor her, she may very well choose to do so.
Again, proof of this?
Well, this is self-explanatory. It's generally not a good idea to get caught up in verbal jousting of your opponent's creation while you're also in physical combat with your opponent. Fate's smart enough to know that.
I am not asking for explanations why it would be a valid tactics, I am calling for proof of them doing so. Without proof, this claim is quite simply false.
Well, here I would argue that Nanoha's offensive blasts are simply more powerful than Fate's. Honestly, I thought that this was self-evident. If Fate's offensive blasts were on par with Nanoha's, why would she take the riskier melee fighter route instead of the safer long-range shooter route?
So Nanoha's regular attack is stronger than Fate's most powerful attack? I mean, Nanoha came out of that Phalanx Shift without a scratch on her body, and while in a bind no less! Meanwhile, Fate Barrier Jacket got torn to shreds by Nanoha's Divine Buster. This is not just a case of Nanoha having superior firepower (which she does) but also a case of her having superior defense.
Fate lost that battle because she was simply overpowered. With the possible exception of Hayate, Nanoha has the most powerful long-range magic attacks in this entire series. The way Nanoha dealt with Quattro proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Yes, and she would not have lost that battle if she -here it comes- would have continued dodging instead of blocking. Her choice to block Nanoha's attack was what lead to her downfall, just like how choosing to block Signum's first strikes in A's lead to Bardiche being sliced in two, and blocking Tre lead to her being cornered. Fate is at her strongest when she is dodging, not blocking.
As such, it makes sense for Nanoha's blasts to be superior to Fate's, and it doesn't make sense at all for Fate's defense to be lower than Nanoha's.
Try looking at it from an RPG style setting. Signum is a fighter, Fate is a rogue. Signum has strong armor to weather the blows that come her way, while Fate relies on dodging to protect herself.
Wild Goose
2009-10-09, 10:40
Or in the trope definitions, Nanoha is the Tank, Fate is a Fragile Speedster, and Signum the Lightning Bruiser.
Also, something to point out: when Fate was teaching the Lightning Forwards, what did she tell them to do? Dodge. Now one can make an argument that dodging is needed for a support mage like Caro, but then when she tells Erio, the Neo-Belkan Melee mage that he needs to dodge, one starts to wonder.
You don't teach people something that you don't practice and believe.
Triple_R
2009-10-09, 11:20
A fighter in cloth with a rapier can win against a fighter in plate with an axe by virtue of being able to strike more quickly.
What you're talking about isn't melee fighting. It's stealth assault on one particular target, or hit-and-run on one particular target.
Melee fighting involves group fighting: It's not one-on-one with no other combat participants around.
From Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melee):
Melee... generally refers to disorganized close combat involving a group of fighters. A melee ensues when groups become locked together in combat with no regard to group tactics or fighting as an organized unit; each participant fights as an individual.
Bold emphasis mine.
This is why it's important for a good melee fighter to have good defense. Because in the event of group warfare where each participant fights as an individual, the likelihood of not getting hit at all is exceedingly slim (i.e. somebody on the other side that you're not fighting directly with could sneak attack you at any time).
Sure, in one-on-one combat with out other participants around, you can win a fight with out taking a single hit on the basis of speed advantage alone... but this is much more difficult to achieve in melee warfare.
And, interestingly enough... Fate had no choice but to use defensive acumen (i.e. blocking) against her opponents when she went into combat inside the cradle. The reason being that she was outnumbered 3-to-1, and hence dodging everything would quite possibly be beyond even her.
However, Fate won that fight, ultimately defeating all of her opponents here, demonstrating that she's a good melee fighter with good defense.
So...
Yes you can.
No, you can't. A melee fighter needs good defense unless they have an unreal speed/agility advantage (I'm thinking of Hecate from Shakugan no Shana here).
And yet, I have walked around winning fights without even taking a single hit at all. Curious, wouldn't you say?
Not if it's one-on-one, no.
Yes she did stop dodging. She stopped dodging the moment Nanoha began her Divine Buster, at that point Fate was not yet in a bind. What Fate did was try to block it, because Nanoha had blocked her attack and she felt she had to do the same.
IIRC, Fate tried to counter that blast with one of her own, and her blast was disintegrated entirely by it. Then, in clear visible shock, she raised a shield. I'm not sure if dodging was an option at the point of shock here. Nanoha's blast had a significant thickness to it.
So... it's very debatable if she consciously chose to stop dodging or not, Keroko.
Source please.
Nanoha's divine buster is obviously more powerful than Vita's most basic physical attacks. Vita herself was stunned by the potency of the blast, and was knocked backwards by it; even enraged by it.
Very scarcely.
No, not very scarcely. Fate uses Bardiche as a defensive weapon frequently.
And often right before she loses.
No, not often right before she loses.
No we can't.
Yes we can, Keroko.
That's where the main flaw in saying 'feats trumph all' set in.
There's no flaw whatsoever in saying 'feats triumph all'. This is the approach that serious fighting boards take; fighting boards that pit fictional characters against one another in combat.
They've been doing this for decades, and with wide consensus agreement.
Have you ever heard of Comic Book Rumbles?
We don't know how powerful Vivio's attack was, or how strong Nanoha's shields are. Right now all we can do is guess, which is what you are doing. Guess. However guesses are not facts.
Feats provide a good basis for educated estimations. Appraisals are frequently completely wrong or dishonest.
Feats trump appraisals. Always.
In other words: It's more powerful, which is then supported by the booklets placing it far beyond the norm.
Vivio's punching ability is more powerful than Nanoha's shields, yes.
Look, one reason why you don't put much credence in appraisals is because of things like exaggerations and hyperbole. This is very common through out fiction; creators amping up the assessment of the Big Bad (or whatever) beyond what feats demonstrate.
In the case of Vivio, she clearly wasn't all that awesome, or she would have curbstomped Nanoha.
These are booklets which discuss the casts attacks and call most of Nanoha's move 'powerful.' Frightening in those booklets means frightening to the cast.
Nanoha didn't seem very frightened to me, during her fight with Vivio.
I'm well aware. That's why I said could. Dialog can be used to explain differences in power, which is why characters speaking about their powers is very important.
Perhaps, but it's not as important as feats. Feats are concrete evidence right in front of your eyes. The picture tells the story. The picture doesn't exaggerate, or use hyperbole, or engage in bragging or insulting, or lie. Claims about powers are obviously very open to all of the above, and hence less trustworthy.
And subjective. Let's take Signum's attack on Fate in A's, the rapid movement one. Say I call it a teleportation, and you a fast movement spell. Which of us is right? At this point, the feat itself proves nothing.
Wrong, Keroko.
Totally wrong. I can't believe that you're making such an awful argument.
The feat itself proves that Signum can move very rapidly from Point A to Point B. The means used to achieve this is secondary to the objective fact, proved by the feat, that she can move rapidly from Point A to Point B.
Vita's words.
So Vita is above boasting? Or trying to infuse herself with greater self-confidence?
Breaking things is hers and Graff Eisen's specialty. Of course there's also supporting that Graff Eisen's design, which just screams "built for breaking" as well as booklets describing Vita's attacks as barrier breakers.
This proves absolutely nothing as far as Vita/Signum comparisons are concerned.
I am talking post-cartridge upgrade. Fate couldn't defend against Signum's blows to the point where she had to abandon blocking completely because it was fighting a losing battle.
And Nanoha couldn't defend against Vita and Vivio's blows.
Not at all. I am hardly twisting events to suit my needs.
Keroko... it is obviously circular reasoning to argue that "Fate has crappy defense. Hence, Fate proves that a good melee fighter can have crappy defense. Thus, saying that Fate being a good melee fighter means that she should have good defense is wrong" in a debate centering around whether or not Fate has crappy defense.
Again, proof of this?
The very fact that she argued that Fate couldn't take a signal hit from her is telling, don't you think? Why would you want to let your opponent in on a weakness that they have?
On the other hand, it makes sense to try to unnerve your opponent by having them underestimate their chances to win the battle.
I am not asking for explanations why it would be a valid tactics, I am calling for proof of them doing so. Without proof, this claim is quite simply false.
The fact that it makes for valid tactics means that it is a plausible explanation for why Fate is saying what she's saying there, Keroko. Given that it is a plausible explanation that fits the shown feats, it's far more valuable than appraisals taken purely at face value.
So Nanoha's regular attack is stronger than Fate's most powerful attack?
Divine Buster wasn't Nanoha's "regular" attack at the time. It only became that after Nanoha introduced the Starlite Breaker... later on in the fight against Fate. Fate didn't see that coming. She was startled that Nanoha had something greater than the Divine Buster.
I mean, Nanoha came out of that Phalanx Shift without a scratch on her body, and while in a bind no less! Meanwhile, Fate Barrier Jacket got torn to shreds by Nanoha's Divine Buster. This is not just a case of Nanoha having superior firepower (which she does) but also a case of her having superior defense.
I disagree. Superior firepower explains everything, in my opinion.
Yes, and she would not have lost that battle if she -here it comes- would have continued dodging instead of blocking.
I don't know if she had the choice to dodge at that juncture. The blast was coming fast, and had disintegrated Fate's own counter blast, much to Fate's shock.
Try looking at it from an RPG style setting. Signum is a fighter, Fate is a rogue. Signum has strong armor to weather the blows that come her way, while Fate relies on dodging to protect herself.
No, Fate is not a rogue. Rogues would not engage in lengthy one-on-one fights, and rogues certainly wouldn't engage in one-on-three fights where they're outnumbered. You have to be able to take a hit to try such things.
Or in the trope definitions, Nanoha is the Tank, Fate is a Fragile Speedster, and Signum the Lightning Bruiser.
Fate is not a Fragile Speedster. Fate is a melee fighter with good defense.
Also, something to point out: when Fate was teaching the Lightning Forwards, what did she tell them to do? Dodge. Now one can make an argument that dodging is needed for a support mage like Caro, but then when she tells Erio, the Neo-Belkan Melee mage that he needs to dodge, one starts to wonder.
You don't teach people something that you don't practice and believe.
Dodging makes sense for everybody in this series when it's a viable option. It makes sense since it conserves magical energy vis a vis making an energy shield.
Takamura Mamoru
2009-10-09, 12:47
Signum is noble and stoic, but if she can verbally intimidate her opponent while using words that don't dishonor her, she may very well choose to do so.
Actually, she was praising Fate's strength (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorthyOpponent) all the time.
And Nanoha couldn't defend against Vita
Post cartridge upgrade?
She doesn't look too troubled to me.. (http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Smokie1/defense.jpg?t=1255109184)
Do note that Nanoha had to go so high over the limit she lost 9% of her strength, permanently, to defeat Vivio.
I'd also like to quote Signum's and Fate's thoughts when fighting against each other.
Signum: She's come here and become faster and faster. She hit me with an attack I couldn't even follow. If I don't finish this quickly, I'll be in trouble.
Fate: She's strong. She keeps overpowering me in close and middle range. I'm just fooling her with my speed. If I take another strong blow like that, I'll be finished!
And lastly, I'd like to mention that I have both Endurance and Defense in the attributes. "Being able to take a hit" goes to endurance, which I didn't put that low. "Defending against a hit" goes to defense.
Physically, she can take blows, she's not weak. She just has no defense, which is why every blow hurts that much more. Especially in Sonic Form. For Signum, it was necessary since Signum was stronger than her in almost all fields, so Fate sacrificed it all to have at least one field where she has the huge advantage (speed).
Didn't want a new thread for this, but not sure where the best place to put these thoughts. So I suppose my question would be if someone had already thought along these lines, as I'm getting some research and thoughts together for a fanfic, and wanted to see if there were any holes in my interpretation of this subject:
Belka vs. Mid styles
I'm going to approach this from a different angle, and hopefully resolve any contradictions or issues people see.
First, let's go back to Ancient Belka; what do we have? A King. Knights. What imagery does this conjure up? Like medieval Europe with their nobility, royalty, honor system, pheasants and knights. Or medieval Japan with their emperor, nobility, Samurai(knights), and an honor system.
If Midchilda's history is anything like earths, there were fiefdoms that fought or allied for power and resources. Each kingdom or fiefdom had standing armies. Like most Earth armies, they probably evolved into specialized units. Earth had foot soldiers, cavalry, archers and the support staff (medics, healers, spies, sabotage, craftsmen to make weapons, etc.). What does this sound like? Let me put it into specifics:
Signum - mounted cavalry, using speed to outflank opponents (not odd for Samurai to master both bow and sword)
Vita - Foot Soldier, knight, charge straight ahead and punch through
Shamal - support; the healer, craftsman, etc. that I mentioned above
Zalfiras - a bit tougher to put into perspective, but consider that medieval societies did use dogs for guard duty. I can assume ancient belka used magics to create creatures for combat, which would serve and protect alongside the main units.
And Hayate? Archer. Or catapult or trebuchet if you prefer. :P
In Ancient Belka, I would assume people would specialize into these types, just as they did on Earth. So Yuuno, a learned man of histories, saw Signum and Vita fighting, he came to the same conclusion you or I would, if we saw someone in armor fighting with a sword, or a guy in a kimono swinging a samurai sword in today's time.
So, to me, "Ancient Belka Style" merely means a specialization in a type of combat. It's a focus on one. How do I see Midchilda style, then? Let's start turning the clock ahead.
Ancient Belka falls, for one reason or another. Some knowledge and specialities is probably lost, such as the cartridge system. In fact, if I were a kingdom back in those days and wanted to take over a neighbor, I'd aim to destroy their ability to make cartridges; without them, my army could cut through theirs like Sig and Vita do to Fate and Nanoha in A's eps 1 and 2. So people with the know-how to make cartridges, were probably a high target for conversion or elimination.
Anyway, Belka falls, armies scatter, go back to their hometowns, or get killed. The ones who survive, are those that use magic in new and unique ways, that aren't tied down to a specialty that has a glaring weakness. Also, getting cartridges gets harder, so that particular battle tactic falls out of general use.
Magic evolves from this, as scattered people do magical research and testing. Beasts that were probably created by several mages and not tied to their creater's magicforce, eventually become familiars that are. As we evolve into modern midchilda, the need for specialized army units becomes less and less needed as time goes. Some, like Zest, survive into the present, but he's the exception.
Today's times demand a well-rounded skillset for agents and enforcers, which are the current end result of magic's evolution. And thus, the modern Mid-childia style came into being. It might go a bit against the "manga canon", but that could be explained by the person explaining how the current identification works in the TSAB: While they have primarily been using Midchildian style for longer ranged attacks(it's generally better to get rid of your enemy before they can get close, guns. vs swords reasoning), they recently began incorporating an upfront melee style which draws upon the ancient Belka for inspiration, ie, a modern Belka style.
So all that's left is the magic symbols, the Belka triangle and Midchildian circles. But we also have IS cyborg multi-circles and summoning squares. What I think this refers to is the "base" a spell's power is drawn from. If you've played the later Final Fantasy games, this can be interpreted to the animation around your character, that's different when casting a white, black, or summoning spell. So a character could summon up both a belka triangle and midchildian circle depending on which school of magic they are drawing from. Most stick with one school, though.
If you play FFXI Online, there is a single-target sleep spell in both white and black magics. One is called "Sleep" and one is called "Repose." So while someone in Nanoha-verse may be casting similar spells, they still could be from differing schools of magic.
At least, this is how my brain currently organizes things. Make sense? Any glaring holes?
Wild Goose
2009-10-09, 19:17
Fate is not a Fragile Speedster. Fate is a melee fighter with good defense.
I'll grant that she has decent defense in her standard mode, but that goes out the window in Sonic Form, where she dumps everything into speed.
Dodging makes sense for everybody in this series when it's a viable option. It makes sense since it conserves magical energy vis a vis making an energy shield.
And yet what is being taught to Subaru and Teana? Subaru is taught to use shields and barriers appropriately to protect herself. Teana is being taught to be a human CIWS - note that when Teana dodged in that training episode, Nanoha was going, "No no no, you can't be dodging."
Kikaifan
2009-10-10, 00:41
Actually, she was praising Fate's strength (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorthyOpponent) all the time.
Post cartridge upgrade?
She doesn't look too troubled to me.. (http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Smokie1/defense.jpg?t=1255109184)
Do note that Nanoha had to go so high over the limit she lost 9% of her strength, permanently, to defeat Vivio.
I'd also like to quote Signum's and Fate's thoughts when fighting against each other.
Was retconned so that the knights were going easy on them, probably with an eye towards StrikerS. In post-A's manga Nanoha says as much, and in the sound stages Signum flat-out says her relationship with Fate can't be considered a rivalry yet because Fate's no match for her.
Anyway I like to class things more in terms of combat styles than raw abilities; I think Signum's dominance in that kind of chart makes sense but because of her narrow combat style it's not the advantage it looks like.
Personally I class Fate as a skirmisher. With her speed and all-range capability she choose her tactics to suit her opponent and fight wherever they're weakest or just mix up ranged and melee. She's valuable in a formation for intercepting, spoiling, flanking, and such but I generally feel that her raw combat power is a bit below Nanoha and Signum.
Nanoha's definitely ranged; she may be able to defend herself adequately at close range but you never see her closing in for the kill like Signum or Fate would. She has a wide range of spells too, but unlike Fate they all support a single tactical doctrine... which is good old-fashioned pin 'em down and blow 'em up. She seems to use active defenses a lot more than other characters, but since she depends on her mobility somewhat less than the others that's not surprising.
Signum's combat style is totally singleminded. She has no fast ranged abilities to toss at enemies to 'keep them busy'; she's has to either close with the enemy or transform her weapon to attack, which requires her to commit heavily every step of the way when she's fighting. With hardly any variety in spells she's pretty much just depending on raw skill and strong armor to win fights, and I think this is why she shows an advantage in raw stats. I also think she has a big edge in a fight to the death because of how different her second fight with Zest went.
Vita's kind of in the middle; she's still focused on close combat but she hasn't had a chance to show skills on Signum's level. On the other hand she actually has a basic ranged attack, and her weapon forms may look pretty unwieldy but they do put her solidly above Signum in damage potential. Still, she feels a bit limited compared to the other three to me.
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 07:45
And lastly, I'd like to mention that I have both Endurance and Defense in the attributes. "Being able to take a hit" goes to endurance, which I didn't put that low. "Defending against a hit" goes to defense.
I see your rationale much better now. I interpreted "Endurance" as "Stamina", and "Defense" as magical defense/physical durability/blocking ability all rolled into one. In this vein, I took "Endurance" to mean how long the person can keep going (in battle, in flight, in energy discharge, etc...) before they just collapse from sheer exhaustion.
With Endurance meaning "physical durability" and Defense meaning "special/magical defensive shielding", I have far less of an issue with your stat schematics. My main problem with Fate's low "Defense" stat schematic is that it struck me as saying that Fate was as fragile/unable to take a hit as a RPG bard. :heh: As a Fate fan, I decidedly didn't like the idea, lol. But since it doesn't mean that, I'll let this debate go.
I'll grant that she has decent defense in her standard mode, but that goes out the window in Sonic Form, where she dumps everything into speed.
True.
And yet what is being taught to Subaru and Teana? Subaru is taught to use shields and barriers appropriately to protect herself. Teana is being taught to be a human CIWS - note that when Teana dodged in that training episode, Nanoha was going, "No no no, you can't be dodging."
... Strange. Teana's ability to cast illusions of herself strikes me as an ideal ability for a dodger.
Subaru is a tank, though, so I can see Nanoha's point there.
When Nanoha went "no, no dodging" to Teana, she mainly went that "When in a group, your job as the middle support is to call shots, shoot enemies, warn allies, you can't do that if you're rolling on the ground like that."
Most of the mages in Nanoha don't dodge very much. *Points to Signum just standing there and armor tanking Fate's attacks in Nanoha As.* Seriously, that was just to show off.
Though Fate was teaching Erio and Caro that since they aren't nearly as tough as Subaru or Teana that they need to learn how to dodge.
Edit: To be fair to Nanoha's criticizing of Teana's rolling is actually something that Armed Forces in the US (Green Berets for example) frown upon as well. You're wasting time rolling around when you could just easily be shooting your enemy.
Though Teana's rolling is a nod to some other Armed Forces in the world (Soviet Speznek for example) that train their units to be rolling and shooting.
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Smokie1/nanohaattributes04.jpg?t=1255183792
I have to admit, this is awesome. :D
Ha! Reinforce I trumps all. XD
You know, I had a massive quote replying post tapped up, but then I did some digging and found the case closer.
I disagree. Superior firepower explains everything, in my opinion.
So Fate's Phalanx Shift is weaker than a Divine Buster in your opinion?
Well, the facts seem to argue your opinion. Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is ranked AAA in power, whereas Divine Buster is an A+ ranked attack.
So let's re-capture. Nanoha managed to defend herself against a AAA ranked attack without so much as a scratch on her body, whereas Fate was already exhausted and had her Barrier Jacket torn to shreds after being hit by an A+ attack.
Nanoha's defense is quite simply more powerful than Fate's.
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Smokie1/nanohaattributes04.jpg?t=1255183792
I have to admit, this is awesome. :D
Ha! Reinforce I trumps all. XD
Reinforce is h4xx!
... But then, we already knew that. :3
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 10:33
When Nanoha went "no, no dodging" to Teana, she mainly went that "When in a group, your job as the middle support is to call shots, shoot enemies, warn allies, you can't do that if you're rolling on the ground like that."
Most of the mages in Nanoha don't dodge very much. *Points to Signum just standing there and armor tanking Fate's attacks in Nanoha As.* Seriously, that was just to show off.
Though Fate was teaching Erio and Caro that since they aren't nearly as tough as Subaru or Teana that they need to learn how to dodge.
Edit: To be fair to Nanoha's criticizing of Teana's rolling is actually something that Armed Forces in the US (Green Berets for example) frown upon as well. You're wasting time rolling around when you could just easily be shooting your enemy.
Though Teana's rolling is a nod to some other Armed Forces in the world (Soviet Speznek for example) that train their units to be rolling and shooting.
I see your point here. While I think that Teana is generally better off dodging attacks than tanking them, as an excellent shooter/tactician, she can't be rolling away from enemy fire all the time, either. Her role requires her to have good command and control of the theater of battle, and that means she needs to keep her head up as much as possible.
I actually felt that Teana underestimated herself a fair bit in StrikerS. Granted, her pure offensive output might be the weakest of the team, but she has an excellent tactical head on her shoulders; possibly even greater than her superiors, frankly. I was impressed with many of the attack plans that Teana came up with; she's an ideal field commander.
I agree with the dodging. I think she'd be better off ducking for cover rather than rolling though, and I think that's what Nanoha was also trying to cover.
Plus, if you're too busy dodging, you're too busy to give cover fire, and that's no good.
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 10:40
You know, I had a massive quote replying post tapped up, but then I did some digging and found the case closer.
So Fate's Phalanx Shift is weaker than a Divine Buster in your opinion?
Yes, that is my opinion.
Look... if Fate has long-range power more or less on par with Nanoha, and crappy defense, then why would she choose to be a melee fighter, of all things? Is she simply suicidal? :heh:
Top-notch long-range power combined with weak defense means you should be a long-range shooter, imo.
Think of RPG games where you have a top-notch magic-caster with weak defense. Do you put them in the back of the formation, or on the front line?
Well, the facts seem to argue your opinion. Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is ranked AAA in power, whereas Divine Buster is an A+ ranked attack.
Where are you getting these rankings from?
Nanoha's defense is quite simply more powerful than Fate's.
I disagree. We may have to agree to disagree here, Keroko. I'm fine with that if you are.
There's also the difference between close combat and ranged combat. In close combat dodging is preferred over blocking your opponents attacks (though this varies per weapon, some weapons are made to take advantage of blocking) Overall though, for most weaponry dodging is preferred, as blocking merely introduces a stalemate which can go either way, while dodging creates openings for you to take advantage off.
Ranged combat goes too fast. Dodge one bullet and the enemy already has a next one ready to fire. It doesn't create openings the same way close combat does.
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 10:47
There's also the difference between close combat and ranged combat. In close combat dodging is preferred over blocking your opponents attacks (though this varies per weapon, some weapons are made to take advantage of blocking) Overall though, for most weaponry dodging is preferred, as blocking merely introduces a stalemate which can go either way, while dodging creates openings for you to take advantage off.
Ranged combat goes too fast. Dodge one bullet and the enemy already has a next one ready to fire. It doesn't create openings the same way close combat does.
Those are good points. I completely agree with you here, Keroko. :)
RadiantBeam
2009-10-10, 10:56
I actually felt that Teana underestimated herself a fair bit in StrikerS. Granted, her pure offensive output might be the weakest of the team, but she has an excellent tactical head on her shoulders; possibly even greater than her superiors, frankly. I was impressed with many of the attack plans that Teana came up with; she's an ideal field commander.
A lot of Teana's underestimation of herself was because she wasn't quite as strong or as 'special' as the other members of her squad; I can't remember what episode she said it in, but she commented that she seemed to be the only normal one in the group; i.e., her magical power wasn't as strong as Subaru, or Caro, or even Erio, at least in her mind. Personally, I enjoyed her character arc in StrikerS, it was definitely one of the best of the season.
Teana makes up for her lack of power with her attack plans. There's a reason why her battle with Nove and Wendi is considered her Took A Level In Badass moment. It was incredible to see a girl who earlier in the season had doubted herself completely become strong enough and smart enough to take down her oppnonet while outnumbered. And injured.
Look... if Fate has long-range power more or less on par with Nanoha, and crappy defense, then why would she choose to be a melee fighter, of all things? Is she simply suicidal?
Apparently. Fate's combat style hasn't changed much after so long and I would say Precia's hand in molding her combat and mage style did that much.
Yes, that is my opinion.
Look... if Fate has long-range power more or less on par with Nanoha, and crappy defense, then why would she choose to be a melee fighter, of all things? Is she simply suicidal? :heh:
No, she simply knows how to not get hit. Like rogues. Don't get me wrong, Nanoha does have superior firepower, but not in this attack. And the numbers (or rather letters, in this case) prove it.
Where am I getting these rankings from?
Right here. (http://nanoha.julynet.jp/?%A5%DF%A5%C3%A5%C9%A5%C1%A5%EB%A5%C0%BC%B0%28%B9% B6%B7%E2%29#g2deac8a) I can quote the relevant information bits if you like:
Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift.
使用者：フェイト・テスタロッサ
魔法ランク：AAA
フォトンランサーのバリエーションにして、１期時点でのフェイトの最大攻撃魔法。
30発以上のフォトンスフィアより繰り出される、フォトンランサーの一点集中高速連射。
小説版によると、生成されるフォトンスフィアは38基。 ここから毎秒7発の斉射を4秒継続することで、合計1064発のフォトンランサーを目標に叩きつけることに なる。 メガミマガジンの設定資料での記載もほぼ同様で、継続時間の表記はないが『合計38基のフォトンスフィアか ら秒間7発の高速連射を行う「一斉射撃」』とされている。
フェイトの教育をしていたリニスが、機動力に頼りがちなフェイトの絶対防御対策として考案した 。 リニスがフェイトに手本として見せたときは発射体は20体に満たなかったが、フェイトに課した目標は最低3 0体の生成だった。 当初フェイトは3体までしか生成できず、本人も同時発動・制御が苦手だった。 しかし、そのためにリニスの作ったインテリジェントデバイス・バルディッシュを手にすることによって、この 魔法も完成に至った。(以上小説版)
なのはのスターライトブレイカーほどではないが、この魔法も呪文詠唱にそれなりの時間が掛かるため、使いど ころはかなり難しい部類と言える。 本編中では、なのはをライトニングバインドで拘束して時間を稼いでいた。 また、フェイト自身の魔力を莫大に消費するため、1度使うと後がない状態に追い込まれかねないことも注意点 と思われる。
リニスは発動・命中さえすれば防げる相手はまずいないと言っていた。 小説ではバリアジャケットの原形をかろうじて保っていられるほどの損害をなのはに与えたが、アニメ本編では まったくの無傷に終わった(VFB054)。
因みに「Phalanx Shift」は、古代ギリシャに端を発した攻防一体の密集陣形戦法であるファランクスが由来と思われる。 それに由来するバルカンファランクスと呼ばれる圧倒的な連射速度を持つ機関砲もある。 本編中での発動呪文は以下の通り。
Divine Buster:
使用者：高町なのは
射程：A+
攻撃力：A
発射速度：C
なのはの主砲(この呼び方は１期、A'sDVDブックレットに記載された)。
膨大な魔力を直接目標に向けて放出するという、シンプルながら高威力の攻撃魔法。
その威力は、叩きつける魔力だけで強引に「封印」が出来るほど。また強靭なバリア貫通能力を持っている。１ 期第１１話のフェイトとの決戦では、フォトンランサーの発射体をやすやすと打ち砕いた上に、ラウンドシール ドを展開したフェイトにバリアジャケットに影響が出るほど大ダメージを与えた(シールドの上からでもフェイ トの魔力を削り取り、結果としてフェイトがバリアジャケットを維持できなくなった)。魔力のぶつかり合いな らば、ほぼ負けなしの威力を誇る。
レイジングハートのシューティングモードから使用される。
使用時に、レイジングハートを４つの環状魔法陣が取り巻くのが印象的。 この環状魔法陣が魔力の増大・加速を行っている。
一方トレカや１期DVD1巻ブックレットでは、杖の周囲に形成されているのは帯状魔法陣で、魔力の放出・集 束のコントロールを行っているとされている。
発射に少し時間がかかるので、なのははフラッシュ・ムーブやディバインシューターと連携させるなど、距離を とるために工夫している。
１期第３話での初出時には、ユーノは、自分はできない長距離魔法を使ったなのはの才能に感心し ていた。 ただし、このときは封印を目的としていて、名称は出ていない。名称の初出は１期第４話。
使用話数：１期第３話、他多数
Oh, and while translators are funky, I did catch something in Phalanx Shift mentioning Fate relying on mobility. Could anyone translate that?
A lot of Teana's underestimation of herself was because she wasn't quite as strong or as 'special' as the other members of her squad; I can't remember what episode she said it in, but she commented that she seemed to be the only normal one in the group; i.e., her magical power wasn't as strong as Subaru, or Caro, or even Erio, at least in her mind.
And it was very stupid of her. Because she IS another monster there. Her illusions are in the same category as Caro summoning: "very useful, but chance of finding anybody that can do it is like finding snowball in hell". Plus her brains are top grade. When she started to concentrate on that two points she fit nicely.
Kikaifan
2009-10-10, 11:58
Yes, that is my opinion.
Look... if Fate has long-range power more or less on par with Nanoha, and crappy defense, then why would she choose to be a melee fighter, of all things? Is she simply suicidal? :heh:
Because once you get in melee range - and she has the speed and movement magic to close very quickly - your chances of getting hit by a big ranged attack become much lower.
This isn't a typical fantasy setting; magical ranged combat is the norm and melee is a relatively rare specialization. A mage getting in close isn't asking for a pounding; they're more likely to know how to fight there than their opponent so they're probably going to be giving one out instead.
In other words, melee suits an aggressive, speed-based strategy quite well in the Nanohaverse.
Wild Goose
2009-10-10, 12:11
... Strange. Teana's ability to cast illusions of herself strikes me as an ideal ability for a dodger.
Subaru is a tank, though, so I can see Nanoha's point there.
Basically, Nanoha was trying to turn her into a combination AWACS-CIWS; Teana would manage the battlespace and coordinate the Forwards while shooting down everything that was flying away at them - she wasn't supposed to dodge enemy fire, she was supposed to shoot it down.
When Nanoha went "no, no dodging" to Teana, she mainly went that "When in a group, your job as the middle support is to call shots, shoot enemies, warn allies, you can't do that if you're rolling on the ground like that."
Which was really terrible advice, frankly - she was wanting Teana to be a stationary target, shooting down everything. The problem with being a human point defense is that it's only a matter of time before you're overwhelmed - and when you're concentrating on intercepting enemy fire, you can't exactly spare much thought for coordinating your team.
Note that when Tea moved away from what Nanoha was teaching she started getting more success. And don't forget the Hotel Augusta incident, where she was pretty much shooting everything that moved on on full auto, thanks to Nanoha's training.
Most of the mages in Nanoha don't dodge very much. *Points to Signum just standing there and armor tanking Fate's attacks in Nanoha As.* Seriously, that was just to show off.
Though Fate was teaching Erio and Caro that since they aren't nearly as tough as Subaru or Teana that they need to learn how to dodge.
Edit: To be fair to Nanoha's criticizing of Teana's rolling is actually something that Armed Forces in the US (Green Berets for example) frown upon as well. You're wasting time rolling around when you could just easily be shooting your enemy.
Though Teana's rolling is a nod to some other Armed Forces in the world (Soviet Speznek for example) that train their units to be rolling and shooting.
Evasive action isn't something that's used alot in the Nanoverse, although that might be because of the fact that evasive action is mitigated by homing rounds, requiring people to learn how to tank.
Also, rolling is not quite frowned upon - it's the purpose of the rolling. Throwing yourself on the ground lets you evade the first shot, but it takes you longer to get back up and reorient compared to rolling. And then, if you've just been shot in the legs, at least if you turn your fall into a roll you can come up fighting, like what happened to LTC Erik Kurilla in Iraq; chasing an insurgent, Kurilla was shot in the legs and went down, and turned his fall into a roll so that he came up with his M4 up and ready.
Referring to this link (http://www.military-sf.com/evasmove.htm), point 9: Roll instead of crawling, because rolling is faster. (Note that the author is a retired Marine NCO.)
I agree with the dodging. I think she'd be better off ducking for cover rather than rolling though, and I think that's what Nanoha was also trying to cover.
Plus, if you're too busy dodging, you're too busy to give cover fire, and that's no good.
No, Nanoha was saying that she shouldn't dodge, she needed to shoot down every single thing heading her way and her teammates' way.
Also, remember that it was an open patch of grass ringed by trees. Not much cover, so she ducked and rolled away from a shot she couldn't intercept.
As for the too busy dodging to give cover fire... that's the whole point of suppression fire, which is to keep the enemy from poking their heads up and shooting at you. In this case Tea was beginning to be suppressed and attempted to dodge a shot she couldn't intercept and move to a different position to give herself a breather and reorient.
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 12:55
No, she simply knows how to not get hit.
She gets hit a fair bit, Keroko. Even Scaglietti managed to catch her, and hit her with a shot.
Like rogues. Don't get me wrong, Nanoha does have superior firepower, but not in this attack. And the numbers (or rather letters, in this case) prove it.
Well, whether or not it proves it depends on how reliable Nanoha Wiki is (thanks for the link). Regular Wiki is infamous for not always being reliable. Is Nanoha Wiki maintained by the makers of the Nanoha anime, or by Nanoha fans like you and I?
Finally... what's the rationale given for ranking Phalanx Shift over Divine Buster?
Note: Why did you edit out your offer to agree to disagree? I'm genuinely curious there.
Because once you get in melee range - and she has the speed and movement magic to close very quickly - your chances of getting hit by a big ranged attack become much lower.
This isn't a typical fantasy setting; magical ranged combat is the norm and melee is a relatively rare specialization.
Hhmmm... Signum, Vita, Vivio, Subaru, most of the Numbers IIRC... are all much more melee fighters than magical ranged specialist. Melee certainly doesn't seem like a rare specialization to me.
Heck, of the four young protagonists in training in StrikerS, only Teana is a magical ranged specialist, and her magical blasts are fairly weak in comparison to other magical blasts.
No, Nanoha was saying that she shouldn't dodge, she needed to shoot down every single thing heading her way and her teammates' way.
Also, remember that it was an open patch of grass ringed by trees. Not much cover, so she ducked and rolled away from a shot she couldn't intercept.
As for the too busy dodging to give cover fire... that's the whole point of suppression fire, which is to keep the enemy from poking their heads up and shooting at you. In this case Tea was beginning to be suppressed and attempted to dodge a shot she couldn't intercept and move to a different position to give herself a breather and reorient.
Though in all fairness, the basic message of Nanoha's lesson wasn't wrong. Once Teana starts dodging, the enemy can take her time shooting while Teana is too busy dodging to counter. The problem is that Nanoha's lessons were tailored towards ranged fighting ranged, and placed Teana in a support role that guarded both herself and her teammates. Unfortunately, most of Teana's opponents ended up being melee opponents, during which the lesson we saw ended up being useless.
It should also be noted that dodging in mage combat is not always the wisest of choices. It works fine against drones, but dodging a mage shot doesn't mean you can stop worrying about the shot you dodged. Chances are you are now being attacked attacked from two sides.
It's like the saying "don't turn your back on the enemy" dodging, or more specifically rolling, gives your enemy the chance to act while your eye is off them.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-10, 12:59
Double Standard Fallacy involving the Wiki.
Watch your claims Triple_R.
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 13:03
Double Standard Fallacy involving the Wiki.
:confused:
Where am I making a double standard? Asking if Nanoha Wiki is like regular Wiki is not a double standard at all.
Watch your claims Triple_R.
That's needlessly confrontational, AdmiralTigerclaw.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-10, 13:11
You made a previous claim (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2693852&postcount=2076) and supported it (with bold lettering for emphasis mind you) with Wiki information. And you then called the information recently pulled from a Wiki into question on the basis of it being wiki.
That can be, and is a Double Standard Fallacy. It's a rather minor instance, but I thought I'd point that out before the argument could get shanghai'd.
I'm just letting you know to watch your claims. Sometimes they can bite back if you're not careful. I was watching for it ever since you made the refference to wiki earlier. (I was even tempted to point out that you should have gotten the definition of 'melee' from Dictionary.com, rather than Wikipedia.)
Wiki refferences are rather notorious for ending up with Double Standard Fallacies.
EDIT: *Added link*
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 13:13
You made a previous claim and supported it (with bold lettering for emphasis mind you) with Wiki information. And you then called the information recently pulled from a Wiki into question on the basis of it being wiki.
That can be, and is a Double Standard Fallacy. It's a rather minor instance, but I thought I'd point that out before the argument could get shanghai'd.
I'm just letting you know to watch your claims. Sometimes they can bite back if you're not careful. I was watching for it ever since you made the refference to wiki earlier. (I was even tempted to point out that you should have gotten the definition of 'melee' from Dictionary.com, rather than Wikipedia.)
Wiki refferences are rather notorious for ending up with Double Standard Fallacies.
Good point.
Here's the dictionary definition of melee then:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/melee
Key excerpt: a confused hand-to-hand fight or struggle among several people.
She gets hit a fair bit, Keroko. Even Scaglietti managed to catch her, and hit her with a shot.
Yes, and those with high armor get their armor pierced. No defense is ultimate. What I meant is that Fate isn't suicidal, she's just good at dodging, and uses mobility over defense.
The wiki is one maintained by fans, however the articles themselves are sourced. The information about the attacks came from the Novel and Megami Magazine, both official sources.
Phalanx Shift being ranked higher... Well, someone has to translate that to be certain. I'm not sure I can trust translation sites for details like these. Power should be one factor though.
As for why I edited out my comment to agree to disagree, well, I thought it was a tad offensive myself. It was basically me saying 'If you're really going to keep argue even in the face of this evidence, then you're hopeless' which, needless to say, is not the most flattering of agreements. I prefer to keep things civil, hence why I edited it out.
Hhmmm... Signum, Vita, Vivio, Subaru, most of the Numbers IIRC... are all much more melee fighters than magical ranged specialist. Melee certainly doesn't seem like a rare specialization to me.
Heck, of the four young protagonists in training in StrikerS, only Teana is a magical ranged specialist, and her magical blasts are fairly weak in comparison to other magical blasts.
For main characters, no. But the majority of Mid still uses ranged magic. Our main characters are the exception, not the rule.
As for ranged magic users among our main characters... Nanoha, Hayate, Teana, Caro, Lutecia, Agito, Rein, Quattro, Cinque, Otto, Dieci, Wendi, Thoma... even there there's really quite a lot of them.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-10, 13:25
@Triple_R
Good enough.
As I already said, I was tempted to point out what you should have done at the time, as the first argument out of most debater's mouths is 'Wikipedia is not accurate!'.
I decided to hold off since it was unlikely the particular article you refferenced would have bias or inaccuracy. I take things on a case by case. But in general, the rule of Wiki is that if you accept them for your arguments, you should accept them from other arguments, or not use them. (Unless you spot a wiki page filled with warnings like [CITATION NEEDED] or other Wikipedia 'questionable article' messages.)
It might be prudent, since I spotted a lot of the most common logical fallacies being fired off rapid-pace earlier... that you familiarize yourself with this (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/) so your arguments can be more accurate and objective.
I pointed out in what appears to be a completely ignored post several issues with your dissection of Nanoha's defensive power and the logical flaws they entailed.
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 13:33
Yes, and those with high armor get their armor pierced. No defense is ultimate. What I meant is that Fate isn't suicidal, she's just good at dodging, and uses mobility over defense.
The wiki is one maintained by fans, however the articles themselves are sourced. The information about the attacks came from the Novel and Megami Magazine, both official sources.
Phalanx Shift being ranked higher... Well, someone has to translate that to be certain. I'm not sure I can trust translation sites for details like these. Power should be one factor though.
Back in the original Nanoha anime, in one of Fate and Nanoha's fights, Nanoha shot a major energy blast at Fate. Fate also shot a major energy blast at Nanoha. The two blasts interconnected mid-blast.
Now, in fairness, I don't recall if this was a Phalanx Shift vs. a Divine Buster, but if it was... Nanoha's blast eventfully knocked back Fate's blast, IIRC.
Do you recall what fight I'm referring to here?
As for why I edited out my comment to agree to disagree, well, I thought it was a tad offensive myself. It was basically me saying 'If you're really going to keep argue even in the face of this evidence, then you're hopeless' which, needless to say, is not the most flattering of agreements. I prefer to keep things civil, hence why I edited it out.
Keroko... have you seriously considered, even once in our debates, that maybe; just maybe you're taking the wrong approach on feats vs. appraisals? These rankings are just another kind of appraisal, you know; be they fan-made or otherwise.
itanshi1
2009-10-10, 13:36
triple r: they both used busters in that scene
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 13:47
I would point out several things here.
Defense refers to the ability to withstand a hit and not take damage. Like Armor on a tank.
Fate's 'armor' (active defenses) is not very powerful, thus she doesn't rely on it. Especially after Nanoha made it clear in season when she was overpowered by Starlight Breaker Prototype.
Taking a blow as you would reffer to it as Fate taking damage and getting back up is not defense, but a stat that is similar to endurance. (Damage Absorbtion)
Likewise, the ability to parry blows in melee or deflect them is not defense in the sense being used here, but skill.
As for your downplay of nanoha's defense levels, you're equating a cross spectrum, cross timeline series of completely isolated events and applying them to a universal context that does not exist.
Both Keroko and I have done this: why are you focusing strictly on me as such?
In any event, if we're arguing about Fate vs. Nanoha strictly as it pertains to their Striker S selves, then there's very little whatsoever to go on when it comes to comparing Fate's defensive capabilities to Nanoha's.
When Vita smashed Nanoha's barrier, she did so with a cartridge powered, rocket boosted hammer attack designed specificly for jack-hammering right through a barrier against a Nanoha who had not upgraded to matching equipment. (She had not leveled up yet one could say.) Note that later on, Vita never broke Nanoha's defenses.
Vita briefly battled with Fate pre-Nanoha/Fate cartridge upgrade as well. How did that fight go?
When Nanoha was fighting Uber Vivio in the Cradle, she was severely hampered by a high density AMF field, stressed, exhausted, and holding herself back to buy time for her WAS to located Quattro.
You're exaggerating the situation, imo. Nanoha was stressed, but so was Fate in Fate's battle with Jail Scaglietti. Nanoha did not strike me as downright exhausted.
Note that despite the barrier getting busted, Nanoha was not put out of the fight thanks to a combination of her secondary defense (barrier jacket) and some Epic level Endurance on her part. She was under all those handicapping factors, and was still tanking Vivio attacks.
Yes... and when Jail blasted Fate out of the air, Fate wasn't completely taken out of the battle by it either.
The clash in episode 5 wasn't a Phalanx Shift versus Divine Buster, that was a Thunder Smasher, an A- rank attack, versus a Divine Buster, an A rank attack. Even though it wasn't a full rank stronger, only by a -, Nanoha's Divine Buster was stronger, hence it pushed Fate's Thunder Smasher back.
I should also note that, again, Fate won that fight because she dodged. Launching upwards and making use of the opening it created.
And no, I do not think I am taking a wrong stance. As our debate has shown, feats are subjective. Appraisals of rank are not. That Phalanx Shift is a AAA ranked attack is a canonical fact. That Divine Buster is an A rank attack is a canonical fact. Only with these appraisals do the feats become objective, as we now know which attack is the stronger one, and they show the very opposite of what you claim.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-10, 14:20
Both Keroko and I have done this: why are you focusing strictly on me as such?
I've argued with Keroko before, it's a headache. But Keroko is correct in this argument.
In any event, if we're arguing about Fate vs. Nanoha strictly as it pertains to their Striker S selves, then there's very little whatsoever to go on when it comes to comparing Fate's defensive capabilities to Nanoha's.
Not my point. My point is you're applying one 'level' of value to factors that scale massively different. You can't do that. You have to observing the factors and context, not simply the events.
Vita briefly battled with Fate pre-Nanoha/Fate cartridge upgrade as well. How did that fight go?
Not relevant. Fate wasn't using a barrier to defend against Vita's blows. She was dodging and using staff deflects until Signum stomped her. That goes to skill and speed, not defense.
You're exaggerating the situation, imo. Nanoha was stressed, but so was Fate in Fate's battle with Jail Scaglietti. Nanoha did not strike me as downright exhausted.
You're narrowing the context down to direct interpretation of your observations. She was quite exhausted by that time, having smashed her way through the Cradle's AMF filled interior full tilt tilt, blowing up everything that got in her way, having been doing this for upwards of an hour at this point. And she cut loose with a Blaster system divine buster (Essentially a Limit Break) before she even got to Vivio.
She was pushing herself before she even got to that, already bleeding from stress injuries and gritting it off. Exhausted enough that once they all ESCAPED the cradle, after fighting non-stop for three hours... they passed out in the Helicopter on the ride back.
You don't get that tired from firing the 5X starlight breaker alone.
Yes... and when Jail blasted Fate out of the air, Fate wasn't completely taken out of the battle by it either.
Yet you fail to recognize the context of the situation. Jail is not a reincarnated Sainkt Kaiser Clone that can suvive exploding helicopters while powered down and asleep, and he's not backed up by the power resserves of a multi-kilometer long super battleship.
It also was not his intention to kill her right on the spot. Vivio, in her Quattro induced madness, had every intent of turning Nanoha into meat paste amid her derranged screams of. 'YOU AREN'T MY MAMA! GIVE BACK MY MAMA!'
One should also point out, that at that instance, Jail had blindsided her with odd-angle attacks, and never went through a barrier like the way Vivio did pounding on Nanoha.
Your context and scale is all inaccurate.
As such: Looking at the way you're structuring your counter arguments, these are all Straw Man arguments I've responded to.
I've argued with Keroko before, it's a headache. But Keroko is correct in this argument.
Yeah, I was far too stubborn during our last one. I never did apologize for that, did I? Well, my apologies. :heh:
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-10, 14:54
I don't even REMEMBER what our last argument was about... Just that you got into one of your turtle shell mode funks in the middle of it.
Though, you provide me with a gap to provide a good followup here.
In essence, what you're doing Triple_R... is if I may exaggerate your argument to an extreme level here... claiming that Nanoha's defenses aren't impressive after she fails to protect against a nuclear missile attack, while Fate's defenses are strong after she successfully protects herself against a butterfly tickle.
As I can point out with that extreme example, the flaw is that all attacks are not created equal, and that is the mistake you keep making.
I don't even REMEMBER what our last argument was about... Just that you got into one of your turtle shell mode funks in the middle of it.
It was that teleport grenade you created. It put me into 'don't use haxx' mode and led me to making downright ridiculous arguments to try and disprove its possibility, while all I really had to do was say 'I don't like this.'
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 15:29
And no, I do not think I am taking a wrong stance.
That's not what I asked you, Keroko.
I specifically asked you if you have seriously considered that your approach to feats vs. appraisals is valid or not. I really don't get the sense that you've considered my arguments at all on that particular issue.
Frankly, that bothers me much more than the debate over the defensive capability of Fate vs. Nanoha. It is a very wrong-headed approach to feats vs. appraisals, imo.
AdmiralTigerclaw, it should be noted, is debating feats with me.
As our debate has shown, feats are subjective.
Our debate has shown nothing of the sort.
Appraisals of rank are not.
Yes they are, Keroko.
That Phalanx Shift is a AAA ranked attack is a canonical fact. That Divine Buster is an A rank attack is a canonical fact.
Show trumps tell, every time. This is one of the oldest rules of good storytelling. There are instances longer than my arm of "official" appraisals of characters (not in this franchise, necessarily, but certainly in loads of others) being completely out of sync with what the character actually does. When that happens, we throw out the appraisals that don't match the obviously canon feats, not the canon feats.
Only with these appraisals do the feats become objective,
Balderdash.
There are definitive statements that can be said about feats with out any appraisals whatsoever.
I've argued with Keroko before, it's a headache. But Keroko is correct in this argument.
Barring concrete evidence that Vivio's attack power level significantly trumps Jail Scaglietti's attack power level, that can't be said definitively, sir.
Not relevant.
Yes, it is relevant.
Fate wasn't using a barrier to defend against Vita's blows. She was dodging and using staff deflects until Signum stomped her.
Bold emphasis mine.
So... Fate's strength/staff durability (pre-cartridge upgrade) can now be compared to Nanoha's shield strength (also pre-cartridge upgrade), since both were tested against Vita's blows. And if Fate's strength/Bardiche durability is collectively on par with Nanoha's shields (both pre-cartridge upgrade), and if Fate sometimes decides to use shields instead of staff deflects, and if Fate isn't a stupid fighter (which nobody here appears to be arguing otherwise)... then what does that say about the strength of Fate's magical shields by extension?
That goes to skill and speed, not defense.
Yes, but by comparison, it can say something about defense.
You're narrowing the context down to direct interpretation of your observations.
When people are exhausted, there tends to be visible evidence of that based on their facial expressions. This is certainly true of Nanoha, who has shown genuine exhaustion in many of her fights (most notably against Vita in Nanoha A's).
She was quite exhausted by that time, having smashed her way through the Cradle's AMF filled interior full tilt tilt, blowing up everything that got in her way, having been doing this for upwards of an hour at this point. And she cut loose with a Blaster system divine buster (Essentially a Limit Break) before she even got to Vivio.
None of this proves that Nanoha is exhausted. It simply proves that she's powerful enough to do all of the above. Nanoha may have exceptional stamina.
She was pushing herself before she even got to that, already bleeding from stress injuries and gritting it off.
Bleeding from stress injuries? That's how you took it? I took it to be that an enemy shot simply managed to get through and cut her... given the amount of enemy fire going her way at times, it's certainly not hard to believe that one managed to slip through. That, or a piece of flying shrapnel.
Exhausted enough that once they all ESCAPED the cradle, after fighting non-stop for three hours... they passed out in the Helicopter on the ride back.
Well, all that shows is that by the end of everything, Nanoha was exhausted. That doesn't mean that Nanoha went into her fight with Vivio already exhausted.
You're saying that I'm "narrowing the context down to direct interpretation". Well, in my opinion, you're doing the exact same thing, sir.
You don't get that tired from firing the 5X starlight breaker alone.
No... but taking some punches from Vivio could help.
Yet you fail to recognize the context of the situation.
I'm not failing to do any such thing.
Jail is not a reincarnated Sainkt Kaiser Clone that can survive exploding helicopters...
Wait a second... that helicopter was never exploded, IIRC. Nanoha prevented its destruction. It was pure speculation on the part of the Numbers over whether or not a powered down Vivio could survive that.
while powered down and asleep, and he's not backed up by the power reserves of a multi-kilometer long super battleship.
And we know that, how? Was there any specifics given on where Jail's power was coming from? I don't recall any.
One should also point out, that at that instance, Jail had blindsided her with odd-angle attacks, and never went through a barrier like the way Vivio did pounding on Nanoha.
True. Which is a point in favor of my side of the argument, as we never got to see how Fate's magical shields would hold up against the attack. Perhaps it would have blocked it entirely.
Your context and scale is all inaccurate.
No, it's not. If anything, you're the one who's engaging in exaggerations of context and scale, imo.
As such: Looking at the way you're structuring your counter arguments, these are all Straw Man arguments I've responded to.
No, they're not.
If anything is a straw man argument, it's this...
In essence, what you're doing Triple_R... is if I may exaggerate your argument to an extreme level here... claiming that Nanoha's defenses aren't impressive after she fails to protect against a nuclear missile attack, while Fate's defenses are strong after she successfully protects herself against a butterfly tickle.
That is a gross distortion of my argument, sir.
I have considered it, yes. In fact, I even explained to you why I consider my stance to be the most objective one. As I explained to you in the PM you send me, appraisals of ranks through booklets are designed to inform you of the status and power levels. That's the very reason they were created.
Feats, however, are created to look cool. For example, you claimed Nanoha's Divine Buster, an A-rank attack, is more powerful than Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift, a AAA-rank attack, because you think it is more powerful. The sheer fact that you don't know this for certain and merely go by what you think is the right answer makes the source you're using subjective.
Meanwhile, the novel blatantly says "Fate's attack was more powerful." No ifs and buts. It blatantly states the difference in power, with no 'I thinks' about it.
Objective sources of information are sources not muddled by opinions. Your evaluation of Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is an opinion, and therefore subjective.
Your method if arguing is basically saying "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful. Anything that says otherwise is wrong." It is you who is unable to provide any proof to support your claims, and instead merely go by what you yourself think what is right, ignoring any and all sources of information that state the opposite. There is nothing about the season 1 fight that proves Divine Buster is stronger than Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift, and yet you continuously claim it is as if it is a fact. This is not discussing a topic, this presenting your opinion as fact and claiming everyone that does not conform to your opinion is wrong.
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 16:03
I have considered it, yes.
Thank you for answering my question.
As I explained to you in the PM you send me,
Then I'll transfer over many of the points that I just made to you in my reply to that PM.
...appraisals of ranks through booklets are designed to inform you of the status and power levels. That's the very reason they were created.
And when Batman said that the Ten-Eyed Man was the "most dangerous man ever", that was also designed to inform the reader of how dangerous the Ten-Eyed Man was. It doesn't make it any more accurate, though, since the Ten-Eyed Man never lived up to his advance billing.
You see, Keroko, by the same token... it could be argued that Fate's Phalanx Shift also did not live up to its ranking.
Feats, however, are created to look cool.
Feats are created to look cool and also to demonstrate what the character in question is capable of. They serve the exact same purpose of appraisals... only in a concrete, in-the-canon-story form. That is what makes feats more valuable than appraisals.
For example, you claimed Nanoha's Divine Buster, an A-rank attack, is more powerful than Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift, a AAA-rank attack, because you think it is more powerful.
No... I'm claiming that because Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift proved so ineffectual against a binded Nanoha. At the same time, Vita's regular physical attacks were enough to break Nanoha's shields (both of these Nanoha's are pre-cartridge upgrade).
Are you really prepared to think that Vita's regular attacks BIG TIME trump Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift BIG TIME trump Nanoha's Divine Buster?
If so, why was Vita impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster?
The sheer fact that you don't know this for certain and merely go by what you think is the right answer makes the source you're using subjective.
My source is the canon anime content, which is as canon and objective as it gets.
Meanwhile, the novel blatantly says "Fate's attack was more powerful." No ifs and buts. It blatantly states the difference in power, with no 'I thinks' about it.
And when Batman called the Ten-Eyed Man the most dangerous man ever, there were no ifs and buts about it, or no 'I thinks' about it.
Objective sources of information are sources not muddled by opinions. Your evaluation of Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is an opinion, and therefore subjective.
My evaluation is based on canon anime feats. Those canon anime feats are objective feats.
Your method if arguing is basically saying "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful."
No, that is not my method of arguing.
prescience
2009-10-10, 16:36
And when Batman said that the Ten-Eyed Man was the "most dangerous man ever", that was also designed to inform the reader of how dangerous the Ten-Eyed Man was. It doesn't make it any more accurate, though, since the Ten-Eyed Man never lived up to his advance billing.
Does the information on the attacks count as "advance billing," though? There is a substantial difference between something designed to raise interest in a new instalment of a long-running work, and supplementary material that many fans probably aren't aware of. For that matter, was the material Keroko is referring to released before or after the fight in question?
That aside, there is also the point that "most dangerous man ever" is a much more vague judgment than "attack X is more powerful than attack Y."
If so, why was Vita impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster?
Maybe Nanoha's Divine Buster was more powerful by the time of A's as a result of her training. The A's manga shows her getting an improved version of Starlight Breaker, so it could be that something similar happened with Divine Buster. Just a thought.
My evaluation is based on canon anime feats. Those canon anime feats are objective feats.
The feats themselves are canonically established and objective, but they most often do not directly tell us the comparative power of two characters. This is where opinion and subjectivity come in. As this discussion has shown, it is possible for different people to have different interpretations of a given set of events.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-10, 16:48
Bold emphasis mine.
So... Fate's strength/staff durability (pre-cartridge upgrade) can now be compared to Nanoha's shield strength (also pre-cartridge upgrade), since both were tested against Vita's blows. And if Fate's strength/Bardiche durability is collectively on par with Nanoha's shields (both pre-cartridge upgrade), and if Fate sometimes decides to use shields instead of staff deflects, and if Fate isn't a stupid fighter (which nobody here appears to be arguing otherwise)... then what does that say about the strength of Fate's magical shields by extension?
I actually watched that sequence in question before I commented. The first part you must note is that the staff delfection in question was not a sledgehammer to the middle of the staff blow the way Nanoha had been taking Vita's blows. If you knew anything about the use of weapons, the fact that Fate and Vita were in a shoving match cross-barred with their weapon shafts can't tell you anything about her ability to withstand a sledgehammer overhead, or a rocket jackhammer blow. A deflection, which was used, is by its very nature, a redirect of force. It's a parry, not a block.
The second part you must note is that is the ONLY time she is in contact with Vita were deflections, not blocks or shielding.
When Vita threw the Swallow Flier up and attacked using that. Fate fired her Arc Saber attack and went evasive. While Fate was Dodging, the fliers, Vita tanked the Saber, then Arf attacked with a barrier break on Vita. Who responded with a hammer strike that repelled Arf.
While Vita was distracted, Fate used a delayed dodge move to cause all four Swallow Flier attacks to collide with each other at the last second before pressing a blitz on Vita, who barely dodged with horse speed. Arf then returned to the fray by trying to grab her with a bind that dispersed Horse Speed.
Vita, distracted again, was blitzed. She blocked fate's blow and they got forced into the afore mentioned shoving match. Again, the shafts pushing on each other are no clear indication of true power.
After a brief cut to the bridge bunnies for the tense pause, we cut back to a wide shot showing two exhanges. One obviously a deflection from fate, as she the rather easily followed scyth arcs up and over into its own strike. Vita blocks this and pushes Fate back. Fate is then followed in with a close cemera view showing her to be dropping back.
When Vita goes for the next overhead, Arf snaggs her, and that fight is over. Fate never fights Vita like this again. Signum makes her Dynamic Entry and stomps her.
Yes, but by comparison, it can say something about defense.
Unfortunately, that's not how defense works.
When people are exhausted, there tends to be visible evidence of that based on their facial expressions. This is certainly true of Nanoha, who has shown genuine exhaustion in many of her fights (most notably against Vita in Nanoha A's).
Unless of course, they mask their exhaustion. This occures when you have the Badass (Nanoha) fighting the epic battle, and hiding her true fatigue. To prevent their opponent seeing a weak front. We know she's doing this after she favors her hand, Raising Heart asks about it, and she does the whole teeth gritting I mentioned. Which is (since I just double checked), immediately post the use of Blaster One to bust up Deici.
It should be noted that the first fight with Vita in A's, nanoha was not exhausted, she was barely concious from having the ever loving SMEG smashed out of her.
None of this proves that Nanoha is exhausted. It simply proves that she's powerful enough to do all of the above. Nanoha may have exceptional stamina.
Grasping at straws. Nanoha is still human. Magically powerful, but still human. The use of 'may' is a major indicator that you have no idea here.
Bleeding from stress injuries? That's how you took it? I took it to be that an enemy shot simply managed to get through and cut her... given the amount of enemy fire going her way at times, it's certainly not hard to believe that one managed to slip through. That, or a piece of flying shrapnel.
Which as I just checked and commented upon, was shown to us after her dramatic powerup on Deici. The use of such focusing in fiction is to point out what the previous event did. It's part of the concept 'show, not tell'. In this case, the show, not tell here is to show us that Nanoha really pushed it going into Blaster One. She's at her limit, exhausted already, but Vivio's still ahead. Time to kick more ass!
Well, all that shows is that by the end of everything, Nanoha was exhausted. That doesn't mean that Nanoha went into her fight with Vivio already exhausted.
True, but I'm stacking the points here to show you just how much exhaustion she's building up.
You're saying that I'm "narrowing the context down to direct interpretation". Well, in my opinion, you're doing the exact same thing, sir.
Incorrect. What I'm doing is drawing upon the context of the entire battle and going through the progression to show you what's going on 'between the lines'.
No... but taking some punches from Vivio could help.
Taking punches from Vivio never helps. *That had to hurt reguardless of defensive power...*
I'm not failing to do any such thing.
Don't attempt to hide it...
The context of the fight is that Nanoha is in a three hour long pitched battle in the middile of an environment that's completely hostile to her, and then fighting a superpowered angry 'Kaiser Vivio' at the end, while driving herself beyond her limits even before she gets there. Her blaster system is an overdrive. It was activated and used before she made it to the throne room, implying that she was already at her present limit.
Wait a second... that helicopter was never exploded, IIRC. Nanoha prevented its destruction. It was pure speculation on the part of the Numbers over whether or not a powered down Vivio could survive that.
This is called a Logical Assumption based on gathered evidence. Jail would not have authorized Deici to blow the thing to tiny pieces if he wasn't certain the body of the kaiser would survive the blast in-tact. He even says: If that is the one he's after, she'd be unharmed. Since Vivio IS the one he's after, because, well, she turned into Super-Kaiser Vivio, activated the Cradle... etc. That means that by not too much of a leap of logic, the exploding Helicopter was no threat to her.
And we know that, how? Was there any specifics given on where Jail's power was coming from? I don't recall any.
He's certainly not powered by a giant relic super battleship. He's nowhere near it.
And if his base had that kind of power, he wouldn't need the Relic Battleship. Connect the dots.
True. Which is a point in favor of my side of the argument, as we never got to see how Fate's magical shields would hold up against the attack. Perhaps it would have blocked it entirely.
Maybe, Maybe not. The doctor himself is hardly very powerful based on the evidence and context, he had to get the drop on her, and then it was Tre that did most of the fighting once she broke out of his laser-wire-fu trick. It can be noted, that after that escape, the doctor had no offensive tricks left. He blocked with his gauntlet claws, which started breaking, and then got smacked into a wall. Hardly a challenge to Fate at that point. If she had blocked anything he fired with any kind of defense, it wouldn't be evidence of anything more than 'blocking a butterfly'.
No, it's not. If anything, you're the one's who's engaging in exaggerations of context and scale, imo.
It's not your oppinion that matters here. It's evidence, logic, and reasoning. A little interpretation is okay to keep the fact that this is 7arcs in mind (I won't get into that), but the evidence is against you. The dialogue is against you... the logic you come up with is weak and easily picked apart. (This entire argument took me as long to disassemble as it took to read. Typing my counter-arguments took longer simply because typing takes a bit of time for all this.) You don't have a solid argument that doesn't base off poorly examined context, mis-compared context, or a logical basis that understands how things are being presented.
No, they're not.
You are claiming that Fate's defense is as strong as Nanoha by presenting the argument that she tanks hits as well as Nanoha... by arguing that her absorbing of hits by weaker foes while nanoha is losing hits or barely tanking hits against far stronger foes.
That is taking the argument, distorting it, and attacking that distorted argument.
That is the DEFINITION of a straw man argument.
That is a gross distortion of my argument, sir.
That is an extremety to point out what you are doing in your argument. I even said as much.
I could claim that your arguments are inherently flawed because you have a Bias to Fate, which results in a conflict of interest in terms of straight analysis, and playing Fate up more than she is.
However, In doing so, I must disassemble your arguments as well, or I fall under the Circumstantial Ad Hominem Fallacy.
Since I have done just that, I feel I am free to call you on your Bias.
Your arguments are taking your Bias with Fate and our arguments against her defense are offensive in the light of that bias.
Fate being a fragile speedster is not an offensive statement. She is FAR faster than Nanoha or anyone when she applies the speed. Just as Nanoha's ability to tank attacks is FAR better than hers.
It balances out quite nicely.
Personally, I love Fate being the Supersonic speedster with the love for skimpy clothes and sports cars. Especially when I can apply liberal use of Sonic Booms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ2pkmISOLM) to her actions.
(Why doesn't this forum have a Dr. Evil smily?)
*EDIT: Accidently glossed over a few points in all my typing... went back and filled those empty points in.
EDIT 2: I freakin LOVE Sonic Booms! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=annkM6z1-FE&NR=1)
See, Triple, once again you go and claim things without evidence to back them up. "It could be argued that" already makes the very argument that you use a theory. And without any proof to back up this theory, this makes it subjective, and it loses against the objective information. You have no proof that Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift was 'not living up to its rank.' Therefore, unless such proof is found there is no reason to even remotely consider that it did.
Here is what we can objectively gain from the feats in that fight: Fate placed a bind on Nanoha and fired her most powerful attack, which Nanoha blocked. Nanoha, now free from her bind, replies in kind with her regular attack, which Fate barely blocks, and finishes it off with a Starlight Breaker. That is all we can objectively get from the fight. Anything beyond that, saying which attack is stronger, becomes a matter of "which attack do I think looked stronger?" and this becomes a matter of opinion. When something becomes a matter of opinion, it becomes subjective.
And that is where the background powerlevels come in. These things are designed to tell us just that: How strong was each attack? This information is not a matter of opinion, it is a source of information designed to answer our questions, an objective information source.
As for Vita, Vita was never impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster, she was impressed by Nanoha's Nanoha's Divine Buster Extension, fired at her in episode 10, which is an AAA+ ranked attack. Darned right she'd be impressed by that.
Again, your source is not objective if all we have to go on is your opinion. You claim Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift did not live up to its rank. I claim it does. Which of us is right? Without any form of explanation, we could argue this to infinity, because we would be arguing opinions.
That is why your method of arguing is "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful, and anything that says otherwise is wrong." That is exactly what you are saying. Everyone else is wrong, and you are right. Signum and Fate both agree Sonic Form has no armor? They're lying. Phalanx Shift is a AAA ranked attack? It didn't live up. You keep presenting your opinions and subjective views of the situation as if they are facts, and every single time you are asked for proof, you refuse to provide it.
itanshi1
2009-10-10, 18:07
@_@ my eyes are spinning
I'm not backlog breaking this crap.
I am making a comment tho. Fate is right handed, Nanoha is left handed. Nanoha wears white, fate wears black. They are compliments. One is long range, the other is close range. One is agile, the other is not.
It is cannonical that they are complimentary. If they can both tank the same exact blows of the same power level (a high one) then they are not complimenting each other and the intention becomes flawed.
I'm all for flaws, but busting this cannonical complimentary setup just to say 'oooooh my fav character is buffer than that one is' so to speak, is missing the point of the series.
RadiantBeam
2009-10-10, 18:40
...
So, what about StrikerS, eh guys? :heh:
GlancingReverse
2009-10-10, 18:42
Uh... Let's see here... Um...
How's life?
We're no better off than we were when I started this post, are we?
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 19:19
See, Triple, once again you go and claim things without evidence to back them up. "It could be argued that" already makes the very argument that you use a theory.
That's right. In that particular instant, I'm only presenting an idea to be considered. That's all.
If we disagree... fine. I'm just trying to convey to you where I'm coming from on the issues that we're debating.
You have no proof that Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift was 'not living up to its rank.' Therefore, unless such proof is found there is no reason to even remotely consider that it did.
A TripleA attack strikes against an eight-year old girl caught in a bind, and fails to leave so much as a scratch on her.
...Yes, I find that very hard to swallow. If Nanoha's defense is that spectacular, then how was Fate defeating her so much earlier on in the anime?
And, for that matter, if Fate is a "fragile speedster" that Nanoha was typically able to keep up with (and she was; it was flash-step then flash-step then flash-step for both of them), then why did Fate win all of those fights with Nanoha? Why wasn't Nanoha able to take advantage of Fate's "fragile" defense?
Fate dominated her ongoing feud with Nanoha in the early going of the original anime; this is something that I often think that Fate doesn't get enough credit for. The final Nanoha/Fate fight was the only one that Nanoha actually won. I'd score the first two fights as definitive Fate victories, and the other fights (other than the final one) as draws at best for Nanoha.
Here is what we can objectively gain from the feats in that fight: Fate placed a bind on Nanoha and fired her most powerful attack, which Nanoha blocked. Nanoha, now free from her bind, replies in kind with her regular attack,
It was her best attack pre-Starlite Breaker. Her regular attack, in my view, would be the basic multi-shot "Shoot!" command that Nanoha sometimes made.
which Fate barely blocks, and finishes it off with a Starlight Breaker. That is all we can objectively get from the fight. Anything beyond that, saying which attack is stronger, becomes a matter of "which attack do I think looked stronger?" and this becomes a matter of opinion.
My reasoning has never been based on "which attack do I think looked stronger".
And that is where the background powerlevels come in. These things are designed to tell us just that: How strong was each attack? This information is not a matter of opinion, it is a source of information designed to answer our questions, an objective information source.
This information is what the makers of the information source intend to be true. And if it jives with actual canon feats, great, then it's a reliable and true information source.
But if it doesn't jive with actual canon feats, then you disregard the information for the same reason you would disregard performance specs for an item that, when you use it, doesn't actually live up to the specs.
As for Vita, Vita was never impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster,
Vita was impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster, Keroko.
Look at her facial expressions when Nanoha first shot a Divine Buster at her. Vita's facial expression clearly betrays either a certain degree of awe, or even downright fear, at the sight of the Divine Buster. Since Vita is fairly fearless, I'm going with the lesser possibility of "a certain degree of awe".
she was impressed by Nanoha's Nanoha's Divine Buster Extension, fired at her in episode 10, which is an AAA+ ranked attack. Darned right she'd be impressed by that.
She was impressed by that as well, yes.
That is why your method of arguing is "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful, and anything that says otherwise is wrong."
No, it is not.
That is not my method of arguing, Keroko!
I have given multiple reasons, totally unrelated to how the attacks looked, for why I hold my position on these attacks. You may not agree with those reasons, but it's simply not accurate to say that they're based on how the attacks looked. Not once did I say "the Divine Buster looks cooler so it must be stronger".
Everyone else is wrong, and you are right.
That's not fair to say, Keroko.
I offered you a civil agree to disagree. Why would I do that if I was trying to force my views on other people, as you seem to be implying here? All I'm trying to do here is explain where I'm coming from, and, yes, pick up for a character that I like a lot in Fate.
You keep presenting your opinions and subjective views of the situation as if they are facts,
No, I'm simply presenting them as my evaluation on it. I even used the word "evaluation", IIRC.
and every single time you are asked for proof, you refuse to provide it.
That's not fair to say either, Keroko. I have provided supportive argumentation for every position that I have taken. Now... good or bad supportive argumentation, it is still an attempt to show where I'm coming from on the issue.
Anyway... show trumps tell. In-canon-on-screen-events are more valuable than off-screen background information. In-canon-events validate the off-screen background information, not the other way around. If the in-canon-events contradict the off-screen background information, then you discard the off-screen background information, imo.
Now... I've said it before on the Haruhi board, and I'm saying it now on the Nanoha board. I'm not doing 1-on-4 debates where I'm the 1.
So... I'm going to try to exit this thread for the forseeable future.
I may choose to rewatch some key Nanoha scenes, and later get back to the arguments of others on this thread later after doing so.
Good day.
RadiantBeam
2009-10-10, 19:22
Can't we all just agree to disagree? :heh:
Kikaifan
2009-10-10, 19:42
Hhmmm... Signum, Vita, Vivio, Subaru, most of the Numbers IIRC... are all much more melee fighters than magical ranged specialist. Melee certainly doesn't seem like a rare specialization to me.
Heck, of the four young protagonists in training in StrikerS, only Teana is a magical ranged specialist, and her magical blasts are fairly weak in comparison to other magical blasts.
The main cast represents a very small and very exceptional sample of the larger population. Signum, Vita, and Vivio were essentially ripped from the past, while the cyborgs are a recent development and quite rare themselves. None of your examples even use Midchildan magic, which is in the setting the predominant system.
There are actually two characters who do, but they're both familiars.
synaesthetic
2009-10-10, 19:45
Not that I care all that much, but Triple R has a point.
Observation shows that x ability is stronger than y ability. Eyewitness (viewer) accounts bear this out.
All There in the Manual claims that y ability is stronger than x ability. This doesn't line up with what the viewer witnessed, and must be disregarded as inaccurate.
Kikaifan
2009-10-10, 19:51
'What the viewer witnessed' is often subject to interpretation. Depending on comparisons between multiple scenes in such an argument will only widen the range of conclusions that people can reach.
It's not quite as bad here since we can go back and review, but there's a reason why 'eyewitness accounts' are considered worthless.
Archon_Wing
2009-10-10, 20:02
...Yes, I find that very hard to swallow. If Nanoha's defense is that spectacular, then how was Fate defeating her so much earlier on in the anime?
And, for that matter, if Fate is a "fragile speedster" that Nanoha was typically able to keep up with (and she was; it was flash-step then flash-step then flash-step for both of them), then why did Fate win all of those fights with Nanoha? Why wasn't Nanoha able to take advantage of Fate's "fragile" defense?
Fate dominated her ongoing feud with Nanoha in the early going of the original anime; this is something that I often think that Fate doesn't get enough credit for. The final Nanoha/Fate fight was the only one that Nanoha actually won. I'd score the first two fights as definitive Fate victories, and the other fights (other than the final one) as draws at best for Nanoha.
You could chalk that up to Nanoha's inexperience. Fate beat her just because she was better than her and Nanoha couldn't take advantage of Fate's weaknesses anyways.
This information is what the makers of the information source intend to be true. And if it jives with actual canon feats, great, then it's a reliable and true information source.
But if it doesn't jive with actual canon feats, then you disregard the information for the same reason you would disregard performance specs for an item that, when you use it, doesn't actually live up to the specs.
If a story needs an external source to make sense, then it has screwed up somewhere. Except for minor details which don't matter, of course.
Vita was impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster, Keroko.
Look at her facial expressions when Nanoha first shot a Divine Buster at her. Vita's facial expression clearly betrays either a certain degree of awe, or even downright fear, at the sight of the Divine Buster. Since Vita is fairly fearless, I'm going with the lesser possibility of "a certain degree of awe".
Yea, i don't think anybody ever scoffed at it. :D
Dr. Casey
2009-10-10, 20:09
I disagree; Sekai was not a traitor. She just became overwhelmed by her feelings for Makoto.
Rising Dragon
2009-10-10, 20:17
I disagree; Sekai was not a traitor. She just became overwhelmed by her feelings for Makoto.
... what's this got to do with the discussion?
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 20:19
Not that I care all that much, but Triple R has a point.
Observation shows that x ability is stronger than y ability. Eyewitness (viewer) accounts bear this out.
All There in the Manual claims that y ability is stronger than x ability. This doesn't line up with what the viewer witnessed, and must be disregarded as inaccurate.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! :)
I'm relieved that at least somebody here agrees with me on feats vs. appraisals. After being part of serious, thousand-member-plus fighting boards that always put canon feats over background appraisals, I'm amazed to find so many people here on Anime Suki doing the exact opposite.
'What the viewer witnessed' is often subject to interpretation.
Not always. And background information claims frequently don't hold.
Depending on comparisons between multiple scenes in such an argument will only widen the range of conclusions that people can reach.
I don't see this as a bad thing in and of itself. Fans can hold different opinions over all sorts of things (shippings being the most obvious example). By the same extension, I don't see anything wrong with people holding different viewpoints on how strong the characters are as combatants.
It's not quite as bad here since we can go back and review, but there's a reason why 'eyewitness accounts' are considered worthless.
No they're not. Eyewitness accounts are used in court all the time. Eyewitness accounts are not worthless at all; it's just usually not enough to convict in and of itself (although, if you have multiple eyewitness accounts corroborating the same story, that may very well be enough to convict; that doesn't apply to the Nanoha/Fate debate on this thread though, I'll admit). They can be limited, but not worthless.
And, in the case of assessments of an anime fight, we the viewer have the benefit of a constant bird's eye view of everything; the fight visuals are designed so that we get the best possible shots of everything. This is why "eyewitness accounts" of anime fights are arguably of even greater value than 'real world' eyewitness accounts.
Archon_Wing
2009-10-10, 20:25
I don't see this as a bad thing in and of itself. Fans can hold different opinions over all sorts of things (shippings being the most obvious example). By the same extension, I don't see anything wrong with people holding different viewpoints on how strong the characters are as combatants.
My honest opinion is that they are as strong as the writers want them to be for any given fight. :D
No they're not. Eyewitness accounts are used in court all the time. Eyewitness are not worthless at all - it's just usually not enough to convict in and of itself. They can be limited, but not worthless.
And, in the case of assessments of an anime fight, we the viewer have the benefit of a constant bird's eye view of everything; the fight visuals are designed so that we get the best possible shots of everything. This is why "eyewitness accounts" of anime fights are arguably of even greater value than 'real world' eyewitness accounts.
Not to mention they can be rewinded over and over to be scrutinized.
Though I am not really sure how events that happened before StrikerS can tell about how strong in an area they are now. Everyone must have gotten significantly better after all these years.
Triple_R
2009-10-10, 20:29
My honest opinion is that they are as strong as the writers want them to be for any given fight. :D
Good point. ;)
Not to mention they can be rewinded over and over to be scrutinized.
Though I am not really sure how events that happened before StrikerS can tell about how strong in an area they are now. Everyone must have gotten significantly better after all these years.
Another good point, I must admit. That narrows the Nanoha/Fate debate massively, as Nanoha and Fate didn't get into a whole lot of fights in StrikerS for us to go by here.
Perhaps there's nothing at all we can say definitively about Fate's magical defense capabilities, as I don't recall Fate using magical shields much at all.
Archon_Wing
2009-10-10, 20:33
Perhaps there's nothing at all we can say definitively about Fate's magical defense capabilities, as I don't recall Fate using magical shields much at all.
Well from what I saw from Strikers, I can speculate a little. Her armor changed a lot. She also had her old style in sonic form, but it can be assumed that Impulse Form had better defense since in Sonic Form, since her enemies were scoffing about how fragile Sonic Form was as all power was devoted to offense at that point. But this is just a guess.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-10, 21:18
This eyewitness vs booklets debate has been done to death of the tech thread. Can we leave it be, or at least take it into the tech thread, where this discussion has evolved to actually belong? It's far too specialized for a General Discussion now...
PS: FFTers, see why I'm afraid of posting what I wanted to post? ^^;;;;;;;
arkhangelsk
2009-10-10, 22:08
A TripleA attack strikes against an eight-year old girl caught in a bind, and fails to leave so much as a scratch on her.
...Yes, I find that very hard to swallow. If Nanoha's defense is that spectacular, then how was Fate defeating her so much earlier on in the anime?
Remember the emphasis on feats? You are actually correct in this. But then you have to accept that Nanoha tanked the attack. And since the scene was rather un-evaluable in weapons strength, you have little choice but to rely on the Appraisal of what it was she tanked.
And, for that matter, if Fate is a "fragile speedster" that Nanoha was typically able to keep up with (and she was; it was flash-step then flash-step then flash-step for both of them), then why did Fate win all of those fights with Nanoha? Why wasn't Nanoha able to take advantage of Fate's "fragile" defense?[
Fate dominated her ongoing feud with Nanoha in the early going of the original anime; this is something that I often think that Fate doesn't get enough credit for. The final Nanoha/Fate fight was the only one that Nanoha actually won. I'd score the first two fights as definitive Fate victories, and the other fights (other than the final one) as draws at best for Nanoha.
Because it is great credit to truimph down someone more or less comparable in abilities when you have a HUGE training advantage...
In fact, I'll say that Fate clearly won only the second fight (the one in the onsen). For the first fight, for all her inexperience, Nanoha was actually doing pretty well (she wasn't winning, but she's doing pretty well) until she was distracted (error on Nanoha's part for losing awareness of her opponent and Yunno's mistake for distracting her) and Fate took the chance to shoot her, thus giving us an example of how important it is to actually DEFEND rather than rely on your BJ ... a win, but not exactly one I'll take pride in.
You might also notice that the 2nd battle is itself a sign of Fate's weakness in defense (as defined in staying unhurt). She won the fight, but she wasn't the one in better shape after the Beam Tug of War. Nanoha was uninjured except maybe in pride, while Arf was still fretting about Fate's wound (it doesn't seem to be from her mother, since she hadn't returned to mother yet), almost certainly from the last fight.
I was actually debating whether to join in. For one thing, I basically agree with your stance on Feats (however, we called this Observation in my old board) and Appraisals (we lump this into Dialogue or Literature). However, your way of using the Feats stink, enough that Keroko can win.
The feats themselves are objective, and making excuses to deny them for "coolness" is just burying your head in the sand IMO. But our ability to measure them is limited (and sometimes there plain isn't enough data in the visible spectrum). So, when the observation ends, we in fact have a "circle" of acceptable positions - and if we did this right, the exactly correct answer should be somewhere in the circle, but it is unreachable. This is true in real life (and observation follows the same basic principles, though with much cruder tools and resulting accuracy), though of course you can bring more instrumentation and models into at least some real-life situations so your circle would be much smaller.
Where two (or more) interpretations fit inside that circle, it is impermissible (and anti-canon) to take the interpretation that invalidates the Appraisal. Sure, they might be lying, but it is invalid to just ASSUME that to satisfy your gut.
But then, that's not even the biggest problem with your argument. The biggest is that you can't actually come up with cases to buff Fate. At worst you are weakening Nanoha, but that's not the same thing and even that's not going too well because the cases you cite are ambiguous (they have HUGE circles and even overlapping them doesn't help fix down the plot). So they lack the specificity to contradict the Appraisal.
Dr. Casey
2009-10-10, 22:18
... what's this got to do with the discussion?
Wrong thread, sorry.
Though I guess Makoto/Sekai/Kotonoha does serve as a fairly close parallel to Nanoha/Fate/Yuuno.
Rising Dragon
2009-10-10, 23:07
Wrong thread, sorry.
Though I guess Makoto/Sekai/Kotonoha does serve as a fairly close parallel to Nanoha/Fate/Yuuno.
... not even in the slightest. Nanoha and Fate aren't psychotic yanderes, and Yuuno's the farthest thing you can get from a bastard.
DezoPenguin
2009-10-10, 23:09
Wrong thread, sorry.
Though I guess Makoto/Sekai/Kotonoha does serve as a fairly close parallel to the shippers who debate the relationship of Nanoha/Fate/Yuuno.
Fixed. ;)
RadiantBeam
2009-10-10, 23:14
Fixed. ;)
...
Dezo, have I told you lately that you're brilliant? :D
itanshi1
2009-10-11, 01:25
I recall a mod at another forum calling debates like this 'mental masterbation'
Sigh, the series is not so complicated that it has need for the variance people are seeking. They are what they, primarily, are. There is no need to mix classes of fighters. Whatever they are is an awesome thing for them being so good at what they are. Y'see?
If Grys vok (http://www.j-modellers.net/image/gall/grys6.jpg) cosplayed as a turkey (http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/kotaku/2009/05/4_01.jpg), I'd cough up a gasket.
No, she simply knows how to not get hit. Like rogues. Don't get me wrong, Nanoha does have superior firepower, but not in this attack. And the numbers (or rather letters, in this case) prove it.
Where am I getting these rankings from?
Right here. (http://nanoha.julynet.jp/?%A5%DF%A5%C3%A5%C9%A5%C1%A5%EB%A5%C0%BC%B0%28%B9% B6%B7%E2%29#g2deac8a) I can quote the relevant information bits if you like:
Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift.
使用者：フェイト・テスタロッサ
魔法ランク：AAA
フォトンランサーのバリエーションにして、１期時点でのフェイトの最大攻撃魔法。
30発以上のフォトンスフィアより繰り出される、フォトンランサーの一点集中高速連射。
小説版によると、生成されるフォトンスフィアは38基。 ここから毎秒7発の斉射を4秒継続することで、合計1064発のフォトンランサーを目標に叩きつけることに なる。 メガミマガジンの設定資料での記載もほぼ同様で、継続時間の表記はないが『合計38基のフォトンスフィアか ら秒間7発の高速連射を行う「一斉射撃」』とされている。
フェイトの教育をしていたリニスが、機動力に頼りがちなフェイトの絶対防御対策として考案した 。 リニスがフェイトに手本として見せたときは発射体は20体に満たなかったが、フェイトに課した目標は最低3 0体の生成だった。 当初フェイトは3体までしか生成できず、本人も同時発動・制御が苦手だった。 しかし、そのためにリニスの作ったインテリジェントデバイス・バルディッシュを手にすることによって、この 魔法も完成に至った。(以上小説版)
なのはのスターライトブレイカーほどではないが、この魔法も呪文詠唱にそれなりの時間が掛かるため、使いど ころはかなり難しい部類と言える。 本編中では、なのはをライトニングバインドで拘束して時間を稼いでいた。 また、フェイト自身の魔力を莫大に消費するため、1度使うと後がない状態に追い込まれかねないことも注意点 と思われる。
リニスは発動・命中さえすれば防げる相手はまずいないと言っていた。 小説ではバリアジャケットの原形をかろうじて保っていられるほどの損害をなのはに与えたが、アニメ本編では まったくの無傷に終わった(VFB054)。
因みに「Phalanx Shift」は、古代ギリシャに端を発した攻防一体の密集陣形戦法であるファランクスが由来と思われる。 それに由来するバルカンファランクスと呼ばれる圧倒的な連射速度を持つ機関砲もある。 本編中での発動呪文は以下の通り。
Divine Buster:
使用者：高町なのは
射程：A+
攻撃力：A
発射速度：C
なのはの主砲(この呼び方は１期、A'sDVDブックレットに記載された)。
膨大な魔力を直接目標に向けて放出するという、シンプルながら高威力の攻撃魔法。
その威力は、叩きつける魔力だけで強引に「封印」が出来るほど。また強靭なバリア貫通能力を持っている。１ 期第１１話のフェイトとの決戦では、フォトンランサーの発射体をやすやすと打ち砕いた上に、ラウンドシール ドを展開したフェイトにバリアジャケットに影響が出るほど大ダメージを与えた(シールドの上からでもフェイ トの魔力を削り取り、結果としてフェイトがバリアジャケットを維持できなくなった)。魔力のぶつかり合いな らば、ほぼ負けなしの威力を誇る。
レイジングハートのシューティングモードから使用される。
使用時に、レイジングハートを４つの環状魔法陣が取り巻くのが印象的。 この環状魔法陣が魔力の増大・加速を行っている。
一方トレカや１期DVD1巻ブックレットでは、杖の周囲に形成されているのは帯状魔法陣で、魔力の放出・集 束のコントロールを行っているとされている。
発射に少し時間がかかるので、なのははフラッシュ・ムーブやディバインシューターと連携させるなど、距離を とるために工夫している。
１期第３話での初出時には、ユーノは、自分はできない長距離魔法を使ったなのはの才能に感心し ていた。 ただし、このときは封印を目的としていて、名称は出ていない。名称の初出は１期第４話。
使用話数：１期第３話、他多数
Oh, and while translators are funky, I did catch something in Phalanx Shift mentioning Fate relying on mobility. Could anyone translate that?
Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift
User: Fate Tesstarossa
Magic Rank: AAA
A variation of Photon Lancer, which at one point was Fate's most powerful attack. Over 30 shots of 'Photon Lancer' are rapidly fired at high speed at the target. According to the novel, 38 shots are initially formed. The attack continues for 4 seconds, with volleys of 38 shots 7x per second, resulting in a total of 1064 shots striking the target. Megami Magazine reports roughly the same figures, but has no mention of how long the attack continues for.
Fate's training (education) was planned around an emphasis on mobility for defenses and countermeasures (attack). Referring to examples, Linnith told Fate that people were able to generate 20 shots, but set a lower limit of 30 shots for Fate to aim for. Due to poor control, Fate was initially able to only create 3 shots. However, the goal was finally met when Fate tried with Bardich in hand, an intelligent device that Linnith had made for Fate.
Although not as powerful as Nanoha's Starlight Breaker, the time necessary for the incantation of PL:PS, as well the magic necessary to cast, puts it in the same category of spell difficulty. In the original story, the time needed to cast the spell was gained by casting lightning bind on Nanoha. One point to remember is that as the attack consumes a lot of Fate's mana the technique is supposed to be a one-hit-kill technique for use in tight situations.
Linnith said that there are hardly any individuals that would be able to defend against the attack. In the novel, the barrier jacket only just managed to save nanoha from injury. However in the anime, it was blocked without any damage.
Incidentally, 'Phalanx Shift' is a term derived from phalanx, a word from ancient Greece that describes a close formation that can be used for defense and offense. Besides this, it can come from Vulcan phalanx, which describes a rapid firing gun.
Someone else should probably check the translation, but I'm fairly confident that I got it right.
May do the Divine Buster TL another day, but I need to get back to doing proper homework now... :heh:
prescience
2009-10-11, 04:32
Thanks for the TL. Does NanohaWiki cite a source for the info?
EDIT @ below: My bad, should have read properly... >_>
Yes, in the first line. :heh:
"According to the novel, 38 shots are initially formed. The attack continues for 4 seconds, with volleys of 38 shots 7x per second, resulting in a total of 1064 shots striking the target. Megami Magazine reports roughly the same figures, but has no mention of how long the attack continues for."
The novel and Megami Magazine.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-11, 08:42
I wonder if each were travelling at Mach 3? :uhoh:
Wild Goose
2009-10-11, 10:34
Just a note: the Vulcan Phalanx that Liingo described is the Phalanx Close In Weapons System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS), Phalanx being the name of the whole package, and Vulcan being the designation of the M61 gatling that's the gun of the system.
...though in the USN, it's called either "R2-D2" or "Christ It Won't Shoot", while in the Royal Navy it's called a Dalek. :p
Kikaifan
2009-10-12, 03:01
No they're not. Eyewitness accounts are used in court all the time. Eyewitness accounts are not worthless at all; it's just usually not enough to convict in and of itself (although, if you have multiple eyewitness accounts corroborating the same story, that may very well be enough to convict; that doesn't apply to the Nanoha/Fate debate on this thread though, I'll admit). They can be limited, but not worthless.
There's a difference between being useful in achieving a conviction and being useful in ascertaining the truth. They work a lot better for the former than the latter.
And, in the case of assessments of an anime fight, we the viewer have the benefit of a constant bird's eye view of everything; the fight visuals are designed so that we get the best possible shots of everything. This is why "eyewitness accounts" of anime fights are arguably of even greater value than 'real world' eyewitness accounts.
They are certainly better than real world eyewitness accounts but they are still subject to interpretation. This is especially true when you're trying to draw broad, generalizable conclusions, which is much more difficult to get people to agree on than just a narrow description of what happened in one scene.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-12, 03:28
I made this point to triple R in a PM exchange yesterday evening but...
The visuals from 7arcs are inconsistent between themselves, and cannot be fully judged without the examination of their context along side them. You must allow time to study and get an accurate impression not only of what is happening, but what is INTENDED to be happening in terms of Drama.
Case In Point:
We had the following argument a while back.
Nanoha fired Divine Buster Extension at Vita. Vita is arguably between 50 and 300 meters away, depending on who you ask.
The divine buster's travel time in the video is six seconds.
At the highest estimated speed. That's fifty meters a second. The speed of a car on a highway.
At the lowest possible speed, that's eight meters a second. A cyclist can ride his bike that fast.
Of course, neither of these end up answering the biggest issue of all.
"How fast the buster is going doesn't really matter when you look at the fact that Vita sits there staring at it like a dumbass for SIX SECONDS while it bears down on her... and never even MAKES to dodge."
In this case, intent would trump visual.
Vita did not dodge for six seconds out of shock? Unlikely for someone implied to be that skilled. The only answer is that she was not actually staring at the shot coming at her for six seconds. More likely less than one from 'SHOOT' to 'NO WAY!' *BOOM*
The conclusion is that the scene is completely un-measurable because it is a time compression of an unknown level. Unless we knew the time compression ratio, we can't get an estimate beyond throwing up our best guess of human reaction time.
arkhangelsk
2009-10-12, 05:13
I made this point to triple R in a PM exchange yesterday evening but...
The visuals from 7arcs are inconsistent between themselves, and cannot be fully judged without the examination of their context along side them. You must allow time to study and get an accurate impression not only of what is happening, but what is INTENDED to be happening in terms of Drama.
The scene itself was perfectly consistent. It would be impossible to find a clearly contradictory visual.
Nanoha fired Divine Buster Extension at Vita. Vita is arguably between 50 and 300 meters away, depending on who you ask.
Actually, mathematically calculating for it, you'll have to assume the scene was greatly zoomed (FOV<10 degrees) in to get 300m.
The conclusion is that the scene is completely un-measurable because it is a time compression of an unknown level. Unless we knew the time compression ratio, we can't get an estimate beyond throwing up our best guess of human reaction time.
That will have been an acceptable solution (in fact, in view of the literature promising its speed, it would be The Valid Solution), except for the small problem that it was voiced. Voice FORCES the ratio to be 1 (or so close to it it doesn't matter) or the entire scene ceases to make sense.
That will have been an acceptable solution (in fact, in view of the literature promising its speed, it would be The Valid Solution), except for the small problem that it was voiced. Voice FORCES the ratio to be 1 (or so close to it it doesn't matter) or the entire scene ceases to make sense.
You're mistaken about voice forcing the ratio to be 1, for example in the show Kamen Rider Kabuto during clock up the characters appear to speak at a normal speed despite the fact they are moving at several times the speed of sound.
arkhangelsk
2009-10-12, 09:14
If you mean they were ostensibly supersonic (of course, the Riders won't heat up or make sonic booms), but the frame was ostensibly slowed down until they were at a normal speed, but they apparently talked normally, this is also possible, since they are in masks.
That means, if we were actually there, some kind of speaker in the mask was emitting ultrasounds... since Nanoha only has her vocal cords, can we agree that this possibility, can, for all practical purposes, be ignored?
Wild Goose
2009-10-12, 10:47
Like I've mentioned before, again and again, Initial D. That show takes a 5-minute tsuiso from Best Motoring and manages to stretch it over several episodes, complete with voice lock and everything. How do you explain that?
Then there's also Live Action Sailor Moon, where Ami henshins for the first time, her transformation sequence voice locked and taking a minute or so, which in real life she would have hit the ground before she was finished with it. (Yes, I have watched Live Action Sailor Moon. I shall now expunge my shame by watching Ryukendo and Rescue Force. Embrace the camp! ;P)
arkhangelsk
2009-10-12, 11:56
The show probably stretches the race by going over it again and again from different POVs. We'll have Takumi, his enemy, interior shots, exterior shots, beauty turn shots (slow mo and repeat 3 times here!) I'm not sure if Initial D does this one but in other shows where the last minute has to last forever they start going into reminiscences... using such tactics, it isn't hard to "stretch" the 5-minutes out. Besides, if it did take a bit longer than 5-minutes, then that's what happened.
And Live Action Sailor Moon? Not having seen specifics it is hard to be sure, but In that kind of scenario, worst comes to worst Sailor Senshi have a bit of ability to levitate to slow their fall while transforming.
If this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLG7nu0NXXI&feature=fvw is accurate in timing, that seems to be the solution picked by the author (note ~0:57 when Sailor Mercury floats down) Ugh, I feel like I've touched sh*t just watching it to be honest.
Further, when people deny VTL, they don't really think hard enough about the consequences if you ask me. Take this particular jibe. A lot of people want to break the VTL and make the transit time say 1 second. But they don't spend a single second thinking about what the scene would actually look and sound like once it has been compressed like that.
Wild Goose
2009-10-12, 12:13
Oh well, after 2 years, I finally have my answer. Got sick and tired of the same question over and over again? :D
hideki101
2009-10-12, 12:24
What about the Ichigo vs. Grimmjow fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjlT6GQpr4)? It had talking lock, but it was still the longest 11 seconds I've seen in my life.
There's a thing called "Artistic License." I've watched many shows, not just anime, where something is stretched out in order to build suspense.
It's not as interesting if Nanoha's Buster flickers and is in existence for a split second like a lightning bolt.
In short, it's virtually impossible in most cases to actually draw an accurate representation of the exact specifics, when measuring an action show with your naked eye.
Debate is always fun, tho.
J. Michael Straczynski had a reply to a fan, who asked "How ships flew through hyperspace?" that summed this up: "They move at the speed of plot."
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-13, 00:36
And all the voice locking nonsense still fails to answer the empircal question.
"Why is Vita, a trained combatant, staring at an attack for six whole seconds? Six seconds she could use to- [DBZ Abridged Piccolo: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODGE!!!!"]
And all the voice locking nonsense still fails to answer the empircal question.
"Why is Vita, a trained combatant, staring at an attack for six whole seconds? Six seconds she could use to- [DBZ Abridged Piccolo: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODGE!!!!"]
Because it wasn't six seconds in their time. :P
I'd gather it was more of a second or two. Vita intially didn't move because she thought Nanoha was bluffing... and/or she was locked into her transfer spell... and/or was very surprised for the second or two before it was too late to do anything about it.
Speed of plot, my friends. Speed of plot.
Same reason why Quattro didn't flee the moment she realized Nanoha was gonna blow down to her. She's shown to be able to fly fairly fast. ;)
itanshi1
2009-10-13, 00:49
Nanoha has mad Awestrucking skillz
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-13, 01:42
Or maybe the right phrase is
THUNDERSTRUCK! *Guitar riff*
Vita, back then: HOLY SHIT THAT LARGE CHARGING PINK-...
Quattro, looking at the screen that was pointing up: Oh my, it's frilly and pink-...
*STATIC*
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-13, 02:29
*Observes crater.*
^_^v
Rising Dragon
2009-10-13, 02:50
Vita and Quattro must have some old deer DNA in them.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-13, 03:38
Or retinas that can process more information than usual. :heh:
arkhangelsk
2009-10-13, 10:22
And all the voice locking nonsense still fails to answer the empircal question.
"Why is Vita, a trained combatant, staring at an attack for six whole seconds? Six seconds she could use to- [DBZ Abridged Piccolo: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODGE!!!!"]
Shock can really go a long way, plus you can redefine it as a long-going trait for Vita - she doesn't deal with surprise too well, which perhaps is her experience being counterproductive because it takes her longer to shove away disbelief that's backed by long experience and records of countless opponents. Besides, if she was so well-trained, she should have been doing something like running for the woods instead of just muttering "She's really going to shoot me?"
Besides, anyone that thinks that can just consider the real consequences of the alternative rather than burying their heads in the sand about it while insisting that the default position be completely satisfactory (to their own perceptions).
Try playing that scene at the highest speed your player will let you go without killing the sound completely. I just told my player to increase it to 2X (thus cutting 6 to about 3). Let's just say my conviction that my solution is the correct one was improved.
There's a thing called "Artistic License." I've watched many shows, not just anime, where something is stretched out in order to build suspense.
It's not as interesting if Nanoha's Buster flickers and is in existence for a split second like a lightning bolt.
This is a variant of the Rule of Cool argument. But really it is irrevelant. In fact, it just means that, for example in this instance, that the time was indeed 6 seconds because the animators thought that was cool or "built suspense" without much apparent thought to the cost.
There's no problem with Cool Six-Second Flight Times or Slow Bullets for "artistic" effect. The only problem is that when people start linking it to reality. Then, based on reality, they claim that it must be a Two-Second Flight or the Bullet must have flown faster. They mutter Rule of Cool or Artistic Licence.
But if their theory is right, even if it WAS possible, the real scene would have been much less cool. Or, in this case, if you were right, the real scene would have been much less suspenseful (in fact it is very funny).
Quite frankly, in most cases, Rule of Cool or "Artistic" types are probably best served by just accepting what is shown as true, since it was specially concooted to be such. Who cares if Vita looked a bit like a dolt for 6 seconds. The whole scene looked quite good, and certainly better than the alternatives. Who cares if it was realistic - a Rule of Cool guy isn't supposed to care for that and the alternatives are often don't win any realism competitions anyway :)
Triple_R
2009-10-13, 13:49
Shock can really go a long way, plus you can redefine it as a long-going trait for Vita - she doesn't deal with surprise too well, which perhaps is her experience being counterproductive because it takes her longer to shove away disbelief that's backed by long experience and records of countless opponents. Besides, if she was so well-trained, she should have been doing something like running for the woods instead of just muttering "She's really going to shoot me?"
Besides, anyone that thinks that can just consider the real consequences of the alternative rather than burying their heads in the sand about it while insisting that the default position be completely satisfactory (to their own perceptions).
Try playing that scene at the highest speed your player will let you go without killing the sound completely. I just told my player to increase it to 2X (thus cutting 6 to about 3). Let's just say my conviction that my solution is the correct one was improved.
This is a variant of the Rule of Cool argument. But really it is irrevelant. In fact, it just means that, for example in this instance, that the time was indeed 6 seconds because the animators thought that was cool or "built suspense" without much apparent thought to the cost.
There's no problem with Cool Six-Second Flight Times or Slow Bullets for "artistic" effect. The only problem is that when people start linking it to reality. Then, based on reality, they claim that it must be a Two-Second Flight or the Bullet must have flown faster. They mutter Rule of Cool or Artistic Licence.
But if their theory is right, even if it WAS possible, the real scene would have been much less cool. Or, in this case, if you were right, the real scene would have been much less suspenseful (in fact it is very funny).
Quite frankly, in most cases, Rule of Cool or "Artistic" types are probably best served by just accepting what is shown as true, since it was specially concooted to be such. Who cares if Vita looked a bit like a dolt for 6 seconds. The whole scene looked quite good, and certainly better than the alternatives. Who cares if it was realistic - a Rule of Cool guy isn't supposed to care for that and the alternatives are often don't win any realism competitions anyway :)
As unduly rough as I felt you were with some of my arguments before, I do have to say that I completely and entirely agree with your post that I'm quoting above.
Great points. I feel exactly the same way.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-13, 14:53
That post of Arkh's you quoted there Triple_R, is one of the reasons we generally shun arguing with him. It's one big double standard fallacy. See, in the top half, calls the scene accurate on the premise that maybe shock is playing the key factor, and that if Vita were trained, she'd be bolting.
Then turns around and makes claims on the rule of cool is the logic that is operating the scene.
It is a double standard because one is an In Universe Explanation, where as one is an Out of Universe Explanation that contradicts the In-Universe explanation.
If Vita is in shock for that long (Unlikely as I'll show you), then the entire scene doesn't require the rule of cool justification. But it goes against the intent shown of her in previous context.
If the Rule Of Cool is being used as the dominant excuse, then there's no way to make any accurate judgement of the sequence because it's not playing by the rules.
Now, the issue with claiming playing speed and voicelock however, is that it isn't the solid rock arkh claims it to be. Arkh makes the claim that speeding up the time makes the scene race towards unintelligable. This is a Straw Man Fallacy, as it is a distortion of the time expansion argument.
The scene was designed around the time expansion. It was not recorded in real time and then slowed down for drama. So reversing it by speeding it up in the player is an incorrect method of observation, and inherently flawed.
As a sound engineer, I can point out that the sounds and the way they are presented have only interperatable value rather than the ability to directly measure.
All the sounds that comprise the track will be selected and placed for the greatest intended effect. A prime example would be the sound of a cartridge pump from the devices. Did you know that sound effect is a common effect and used in other media such as Terminator 2? (http://sheezyart.com/art/view/1867820/) In this case, it's used in the smashing of a large industrial device against the head of a killer robot. This is a massive difference from pumping magical shotgun shells into a hollow stick.
It would be illogical to claim that since they sound similar, they must be the same thing.
So in the case of the buster being fired. The context that has to be observed if you are going to Analyze it is that of not only the direct measurement, or the Rule of cool, but Both of them, as well as the intent for characters given their context provided by the rest of the show.
In this case. The intent for Vita is that she is a well trained powerful, (And quite desperate) combatant. The accuracy of timing is already cut into question because there are already several rapid cuts between them where we see one action, and then cut to get the POV of the other character.
In this case, did Vita really sit there just staring back at the far away speck while we watched the sequence [Buster Mode, Drive Ignition!] *Nanoha Chatters* [LOAD CARTRIDGE!] Or did she spend that time realizing and freaking out about Nanoha firing at that distance, near simulnatniously to the dialogue on Nanoha's end?
And then, did she spend the entire three to five seconds Nanoha drew out the charge of the buster, and then the entire six seconds travel time in total shellshock on that realization? Only to go "No WAY!" in the last second as the beam bore down on her?
Vita had up to, and over ten seconds of warning that beam was coming, assuming you're playing that event straight. The Common Sense and Training Vita has shown in context breaks down. It's believable for her to hesitate maybe one to two seconds in shock upon the realization. But a trained combatant kicks into overdrive after that shock well before ten seconds have passed. Otherwise they'd be a total failure as a combatant because someone would have already taken advantage of that pause and killed them. Claiming out and out shellshock won't work because a mere realization that someone might try to shoot that far isn't a traumatic shock that brings upon shellshock.
The only other alternative is that the Temporal Logic of the Scene is broken. There are multiple 'simultanious happenings' jumpcuts, and timestretch fun that occure to milk the tension and rule of cool.
Since the scene is engineered, not recorded, regular methods of recording do not function accurately.
It's not the Rule of Cool that operates that scene. Rule of Cool is merely a motivator. It's cenematography that operates that scene. Time is amorphous. Sounds you hear are there for your benifit and understanding, not for accuracy. The examination of the context around the characters and the scene shows signs that what occured there was an extremely long range shot in a very short period of time.
The examination of the context around the characters and the scene shows signs that what occured there was an extremely long range shot in a very short period of time.
That's really all this was, in it's most simple form. While I haven't heard about a "Rule of Cool" per se, it refers to the same thing as Artistic License.
Things like "seconds" hold no meaning in this case. Nanoha fired and hit Vita. Whether you ascribe part of that to arrogance that she assumed Nanoha was bluffing, her being locked into a transporter spell (in which case moving might have been a Bad Idea), or it actually moved too fast, it really doesn't matter.
Just smile and enjoy the scene for what it is. I've run into bigger plot holes elsewhere, that this barely registers as one. :P
It's why I really hesitate to try and define character powers in shows like this, unless the show explicitly states them. As an aside, this is why I loathe Dragon Ball Z with a passion; Power levels take all the fun out of it and reduce any match-up to whoever's number is biggest.
So try not to over-analyze. And this is coming from someone who a strong scientific mindset! ;p
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-13, 19:22
Oh, the ol' over analysis lecture.
Hate to break it to you, but that's how debating works. We get into the nitty gritty and disassemble it.
Telling us to 'smile and nod' isn't going to make us stop. We willingly went into this for the express purpose of analyzing the footage. If we wanted to simply smile and nod, we'd be watching the scene for the hell of it. Not working it through a fine tooth comb.
And Rule of Cool is pretty close to Artistic Liscense. Generally with Rule of Cool, you're justifying event X that occures with something that usually ends with '-because that's friggin' cool!'
Though, when you're dissecting something because you're trying to make things fit together more. Especially when you're working on something that's got to have consistency with the previous work, breaking it down so you know what's going on is a massive help, and simply looking at this and going 'because it's cool' isn't going to cut it. Lest it become absurd.
Also, rule of cool doesn't cut it when you're trying to make a comparison. It's not merely about having a scientific mindset, but thinking about the details like a writer. A direct measurement of the event means jack because that ignores the laws of drama. Dismissal as rule of cool also means jack because that can go into the territory of ABSURD.
Taking each case and determining through context what is going on exactly is the only real way to get things accurate. If that requires a little over-analysis of the material, so be it. We wouldn't be doing that if there wasn't a debate about something, or a question to be answered.
I'll enjoy it for what it is later. But in here, I'm busy with my scalpel. ^_^
Hate to break it to you, but that's how debating works. We get into the nitty gritty and disassemble it.
Telling us to 'smile and nod' isn't going to make us stop. We willingly went into this for the express purpose of analyzing the footage. If we wanted to simply smile and nod, we'd be watching the scene for the hell of it. Not working it through a fine tooth comb.
Well, you're more than welcome to do so, but... voice of experience here; you'll drive yourself mad. I did that with a few series before. Analyze and analyze and get so thoroughly caught up in my viewpoint of how everything MUST fit together, that I began to disregard everyone else's viewpoint of how things worked.
You've seen the pattern in every forum about any series: Who could kick whose asses, and who will hook up with who. Those threads always turn out nasty because of over-analyzing. Everyone picking up every little tidbit to support their view, and disregarding the tidbits that go against that.
It never ends pretty. But you're welcome to do so (someone saying this to me when I was at that stage, probably wouldn't have deterred me, either, most likely).
Like I said, I'm a scientist at heart; I generally love analyzing things. But sometimes, a cake is just a cake, and you're just supposed to eat it and enjoy.
As Straczynski said, "Speed of plot."
Now, if you have some fic which requires a particular measurement (ie, Buster taking 6 seconds to travel 300 meters or whatever), go for it. You can make whatever fit for whatever you need. I left one fanfic forum, though, because too many people bickered over particular fanfics saying, "No way, that character would never be able to do that because of this and this" etc.
To me, keeping things loose and open to interpretation opens up more doors for exploration. Just stuff I've learned over the years, heh.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-13, 22:28
Voice of experience here too my friend. I've been doing this kind of thing for ten years in general, and three years on a site filled with debates.. I'm not crazy, and I know when to take a break. Especially true at Spacebattles, where I frequent an entire Forum DEDICATED to VS threads. (http://forums.spacebattles.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
It's all about remembering the Seperation of Reality and Fiction. (I have an entertaining story pertaining to that. I've told most people around here already I believe. Involves a rabid fan on another forum.)
But there is one good thing. You survive long enough, you learn how to debate accurately, and neatly.
Kikaifan
2009-10-13, 23:02
Quite frankly, in most cases, Rule of Cool or "Artistic" types are probably best served by just accepting what is shown as true, since it was specially concooted to be such. Who cares if Vita looked a bit like a dolt for 6 seconds. The whole scene looked quite good, and certainly better than the alternatives. Who cares if it was realistic - a Rule of Cool guy isn't supposed to care for that and the alternatives are often don't win any realism competitions anyway :)
BS. Slow-mo looks cool sometimes but if you actually imagine the characters just doing everything super slow it just seems retarded. The difference between appearance and 'reality' matters when making that kind of judgment.
Triple_R
2009-10-13, 23:10
BS. Slow-mo looks cool sometimes but if you actually imagine the characters just doing everything super slow it just seems retarded. The difference between appearance and 'reality' matters when making that kind of judgment.
... In the case of Vita here, in any event, I just don't see what the big freakin' deal is over her simply being awestruck by the Divine Buster for a couple seconds. Why is that so hard to accept?
I'm well aware of things like PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity), and CIS (Character Induced Stupidity)... but lacking PIS doesn't mean infallibly ubercompetent all the time. Sometimes even competent fighters are caught off-guard, or can be easily impressed. It's really not that big of a deal, imo. It's not that hard to accept.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-13, 23:49
Awe struck for one or two seconds yes. We can see that.
Staring at something like a deer caught in headlights for ten seconds straight, notsomuch. She knows what the buster does and is from previous experience. That's enough to know that if the shot is fired, she needs to move.
She was not hit with some amazing new super secret attack that makes you stare at it like some fool with a video camera watching the approach of an EF-5 Tornado. Nanoha fired a more powerful, long range divine buster. A type of attack Vita has already experienced.
If its flight time AND charge time are taken into account as being played straight, Vita should have gotten over the 'That's insane!' response with time to spare. Certainly if she packs the kind of edge able to spot a buster like she did in the first episode and manage to swing out of the way.
The only logical conclusion is that the temporal logic is broken, as I said before, and that she didn't HAVE the 10+ seconds to sit there and gawk. Things weren't occuring linearly like they played out on screen. In the 'reality' of the scene, Vita had just enough time to exclaim 'She's not going to shoot at me at THAT DISTANCE?!" (Or whatever she said.) followed by a flash of light in the distance, and the beam was on her around the time she was going... "NO WAY!"
I give the whole exchange Three seconds tops, including her speaking time before the shot is even fired, with one second or less alocated to the flight time of the beam.
One other nasty bugger to consider on top of this is the really warped camera view used across the shot. Judging anything off that asside from intent is impossible. It starts from an extreme angle in front of Nanoha, pulls back. The beam rips away off screen almost instantly, then the 'camera' pans to follow the beam looking at it from the side (pulling back away from the beam as it does so) and then pans towards Vita, and pulls up along side the leading edge of the beam and STALLS (with the beam still along side it mind you) slightly just before focusing on her eyes.
Beams STALL in mid-flight?
Unlikely.
Triple_R
2009-10-14, 00:08
Awe struck for one or two seconds yes. We can see that.
Well... we could perhaps say it's in 4:1 slow motion (4 'shown' seconds for 1 'actual' second).
That I could see.
itanshi1
2009-10-14, 00:15
Let me open a can of worms. Light based magic attacks? They travel at the speed of light?
prescience
2009-10-14, 00:38
Does it actually say anywhere that Divine Buster [Extension?] is a beam of light, though?
arkhangelsk
2009-10-14, 01:49
That post of Arkh's you quoted there Triple_R, is one of the reasons we generally shun arguing with him. It's one big double standard fallacy. See, in the top half, calls the scene accurate on the premise that maybe shock is playing the key factor, and that if Vita were trained, she'd be bolting.
Actually, the premise that the scene is accurate is from the scene's canon status. As a SBer, you should know that. Shock is:
1) to counter your argument
2) within the context of accepting the scene as is, to think of reasons why Vita might have frozen. Instead of coming up with excuses to dismiss the scene.
That is to say, even if you can prove it realistically would not work (and you have made no attempt to do so, nor IIRC have you on our previous cycles), it just means we have to leave it a mystery, rather than say the scene was inaccurate. That's about as healthy as saying the sun didn't produce its observable power output before understanding nuclear fusion was the key.
As a SB veteran, you should know this.
Then turns around and makes claims on the rule of cool is the logic that is operating the scene.
Complete inability to read. What I contended (separately from the reply to you) was that IF one really believes that anime is dominated by Rule of Cool (or Cinematography, or Artistic Licence), then he would believe that real scene is the same as the "cool" shown scene, since that's probably the coolest layout (after all, it was planned to be by pros). So, from the viewpoint of debating the validity or canonicity of this scene (and IMO most scenes), the difference between a scientific SoD POV or a literary RoC POV is rather irrevelant - they should both conclude the scene should be taken as is, albeit for different reasons.
Objections like "Vita is a vet so she shouldn't be stunned that long" are highly grounded in reality, and have no place to a true Rule of Cool fella.
They are two different takes on the problem, not interjoined, but both reaching a common solution.
Now, the issue with claiming playing speed and voicelock however, is that it isn't the solid rock arkh claims it to be. Arkh makes the claim that speeding up the time makes the scene race towards unintelligable. This is a Straw Man Fallacy, as it is a distortion of the time expansion argument.
It is the simplest variant of the time expansion argument. There are other variants, such as making several cuts reuse the same block of "in-universe time", but since Nanoha's cry was uninterrupted in the critical cut, that alternate possibility can effectively be ignored, and it won't shave off enough time to really save your argument anyway (should you argue the sound engineers delicately aligned two convenient amplitudes values so it just sounds like there was no break) - they blew too much time even using the cut directly after firing alone.
Especially since none of my opponents ever even propose a Hard variant instead of vaguely alluding to "something other than" the only hard variant - the variant that was actually shown. They don't know exactly what they want to any greater detail, or the price they pay for their variant, than they don't want Vita standing like a dolt for 6 seconds.
The scene was designed around the time expansion. It was not recorded in real time and then slowed down for drama. So reversing it by speeding it up in the player is an incorrect method of observation, and inherently flawed.
Regardless of whether it was recorded or engineered, there is a fixed relationship between the sound and the visual recorded in any particular cut.
As a sound engineer, I can point out that the sounds and the way they are presented have only interperatable value rather than the ability to directly measure.
1) What happened to your specialty as a military satellite communications man?
2) If you are a sound engineer, then you should know that many aspects of sound can be measured objectively (what I presume you mean by "directly measured"). Such as its frequency (or -ies, since most noises are not simple sounds).
All the sounds that comprise the track will be selected and placed for the greatest intended effect. A prime example would be the sound of a cartridge pump from the devices. Did you know that sound effect is a common effect and used in other media such as Terminator 2? (http://sheezyart.com/art/view/1867820/) In this case, it's used in the smashing of a large industrial device against the head of a killer robot. This is a massive difference from pumping magical shotgun shells into a hollow stick.
So? From the SoD perspective, it means as far as can be determined, magical shotgun cartridge loading makes the same (or effectively the same) noise as large industrial devices colliding with robot. That's why the "documentary team" recorded that sound, or why the "recreation team" recreated things using that sound (take your pick, no big difference in this scenario).
From the intent perspective, the sound team decided it to be such, so as far as MGLN is concerned this is canonically true.
It would be illogical to claim that since they sound similar, they must be the same thing.
Since no one made that assertion, this must be what a real Strawman looks like.
So in the case of the buster being fired. The context that has to be observed if you are going to Analyze it is that of not only the direct measurement, or the Rule of cool, but Both of them, as well as the intent for characters given their context provided by the rest of the show.
Since I think two of your pillars are already dead, let's switch to your Context Pillar, which is just basically the Intent Pillar.
In this case. The intent for Vita is that she is a well trained powerful, (And quite desperate) combatant. The accuracy of timing is already cut into question because there are already several rapid cuts between them where we see one action, and then cut to get the POV of the other character.
It does mean you can't assume that each cut directly follows the other, but then that's common and inevitable in film. The relationship of this argument to trying to speed up VTLed events in a particular cut is unclear.
In this case, did Vita really sit there just staring back at the far away speck while we watched the sequence [Buster Mode, Drive Ignition!] *Nanoha Chatters* [LOAD CARTRIDGE!] Or did she spend that time realizing and freaking out about Nanoha firing at that distance, near simulnatniously to the dialogue on Nanoha's end?
The uncertainty circle allows for both to be acceptable solutions.
And then, did she spend the entire three to five seconds Nanoha drew out the charge of the buster,and then the entire six seconds travel time in total shellshock on that realization? Only to go "No WAY!" in the last second as the beam bore down on her?
Certainly seems that way.
Vita had up to, and over ten seconds of warning that beam was coming, assuming you're playing that event straight.
Something like that.
The Common Sense and Training Vita has shown in context breaks down.
Common sense is an argument heavily grounded in reality. But then VTL is even more so.
It's believable for her to hesitate maybe one to two seconds in shock upon the realization. But a trained combatant kicks into overdrive after that shock well before ten seconds have passed.Otherwise they'd be a total failure as a combatant because someone would have already taken advantage of that pause and killed them. Claiming out and out shellshock won't work because a mere realization that someone might try to shoot that far isn't a traumatic shock that brings upon shellshock.
Fundamental error of allowing theory to dominate over observation.
Time is amorphous. Sounds you hear are there for your benifit and understanding, not for accuracy.
Yes, they made me understand there was no (or the author did not intend for, no difference in this case) speedup or cut in time b/w cuts.
Awe struck for one or two seconds yes. We can see that.
Staring at something like a deer caught in headlights for ten seconds straight, notsomuch. She knows what the buster does and is from previous experience. That's enough to know that if the shot is fired, she needs to move.
Long story short: fundamental error of allowing theory to override observation. Any theory has to be within the uncertainty circle of observation.
The only logical conclusion is that the temporal logic is broken, as I said before, and that she didn't HAVE the 10+ seconds to sit there and gawk. Things weren't occuring linearly like they played out on screen. In the 'reality' of the scene, Vita had just enough time to exclaim 'She's not going to shoot at me at THAT DISTANCE?!" (Or whatever she said.) followed by a flash of light in the distance, and the beam was on her around the time she was going... "NO WAY!"
Wishful thinking.
I give the whole exchange Three seconds tops, including her speaking time before the shot is even fired, with one second or less alocated to the flight time of the beam.
Finally, at least a bit of specificity. Now, try and array the frames and sounds in such a way so they fit into three seconds (72 frames at 24fps), without having the whole thing look like a farce.
One other nasty bugger to consider on top of this is the really warped camera view used across the shot. Judging anything off that asside from intent is impossible. It starts from an extreme angle in front of Nanoha, pulls back. The beam rips away off screen almost instantly, then the 'camera' pans to follow the beam looking at it from the side (pulling back away from the beam as it does so) and then pans towards Vita, and pulls up along side the leading edge of the beam and STALLS (with the beam still along side it mind you) slightly just before focusing on her eyes
I'll have to recheck the stall (doubt it lasted for more than two frames or so), but beyond the easily clockable overall time I don't think anyone tried to get any data off that rapidly maneuvering sequence.
But then, I won't be shocked if it stalled - I think Hraesvelgr also froze briefly before explosion. For all we know that's one of the methods to "detonate" a magical beam - stop expanding the magical containment, the sudden decel triggers explosion...
arkhangelsk
2009-10-14, 02:21
BS. Slow-mo looks cool sometimes but if you actually imagine the characters just doing everything super slow it just seems retarded. The difference between appearance and 'reality' matters when making that kind of judgment.
If one has to combine the coolness of a high speed fight and the coolness of being able to see them nevertheless, there are a set of conventions that are used for slow-mo. Such as turning off any sound that can reasonably be associated to be from the scene itself (especially voices), greyscaling most of the image ... etc. Sometimes they even put on heartbeat. Those are all the equivalent of the text statement "Not to Scale". Conversely, the more sound you add, the quicker the more plausible solution is acceptance as is and accepting any problems that arise.
Wild Goose
2009-10-14, 03:23
*sighs* Only you, arkh, could take a throwaway non-serious argument and turn it into Serious Business.
My apologies to the thread. I had forgotten how these things spiral away.
Oh well, at least I finally got an answer after 2 years though, so it's not a total loss/ :p
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-14, 03:29
How bad's the Quote Omnislash?
Wild Goose
2009-10-14, 03:36
Eh, I just don't give a damn. This is a freakin' magical girl anime - regardless of how it stretches the genre, it's still a magical girl anime running on cuteness, rule of cool, lolis and fanservice. Not to say analysis and trying to understand the setting is bad, because it isn't, but there's such things as taking it too far.
And remember, people, this is an anime, a fictional story with a fictional world. In the end, all of this is a matter of interpretation.
I'll jump into the hornets nest and point out that the statistically measured range would say that Vita was surprised at a shot fired at her from... what was it again, 100 meters? While Belka magic can maintain combat advantage for up to 200 meters. Mid users don't get ranged advantages until ranges beyond 200 meters.
One more point as to why Vita's surprise doesn't make sense if we take the scene literally.
arkhangelsk
2009-10-14, 05:59
I'll jump into the hornets nest and point out that the statistically measured range would say that Vita was surprised at a shot fired at her from... what was it again, 100 meters? While Belka magic can maintain combat advantage for up to 200 meters. Mid users don't get ranged advantages until ranges beyond 200 meters.
One more point as to why Vita's surprise doesn't make sense if we take the scene literally.
For someone whose advantage is over 200m, Nanoha sure didn't make a whole lot of effort to keep things that way. It seems like a great deal of fighting occurred PD.
All Hayate actually said was that 200m is a range where both sides would find it difficult to win against the other in one strike (一撃必勝). I suppose it is easy to just stretch it and assume that it means where both sides are even, but considering where most of the fighting seemed to have taken place, I suggest it is simply its literal meaning.
In a fight between a Belkan and a Mid, a Belkan tries to get close and slam down the Mid. The Mid tries to shoot down the Belkan. Of course, to prepare a big enough blast to take down, or even disrupt the charge of an equal Belkan takes time. In fact, they do just that in the manga.
So, say the range is 100m. As soon as the fight starts, the Belkan charges. The Mid tries to fire but doesn't get enough time to prepare. The Belkan bats away any weak hasty defensive shots without disrupting her momentum, finishes closing and starts slicing. The Mid is pushed onto the defensive if he survives the first strike.
Now, let's say the range is 300m. The Mid now has ample chance to charge his weapon. Let's say his RMAX is really only 70m and he finishes a full preparation when the Belkan is at 120. That's no big deal and he can hold it or even possibly close himself. Or he can deliberately slow his preparation to give Belkie hope, and as he crosses 70m Mid attacks and gains the edge.
Presumably, 200m is the ideal compromise. The Mid has a chance to partially prepare, but not fully, so the Belkan's momentum is disrupted. After that it devolves into a close range fight with hasty attacks on both sides that are unlikely to quickly gain decisive results.
In short, the statement is just about useless for discussing weapons range.
Yeah, see, but I'm not using it to discuss weapon range. I'm using it to discuss combat range.
Regardless, the main point still stands. Measuring the pixels on the screen doesn't work.
Agree, I take it as sort of like starship battles that based on dialogue have thousands of miles of separation between the combatants, but on screen it looks like if somebody mistimed a helm order there would be a collision.
What you see is not necessarily what you get.
arkhangelsk
2009-10-14, 18:45
Yeah, see, but I'm not using it to discuss weapon range. I'm using it to discuss combat range.
Regardless, the main point still stands. Measuring the pixels on the screen doesn't work.
Effective Weapon range or combat range, the manga shows that 200m doesn't hold except as a starting range (as in "pre-combat" or "approach to combat" range), which BOTH sides want closed before a first strike is actually fired. The Belkie wants zero, Middie wants something a bit more but clearly less than 200. Unless you want to claim that those two are not exercising Belkie and Middie tactics correctly despite their promise to use the first 20 minutes for just that before trying to kill each other for real for the last 4.
Amazingly, this is relatively consistent with variants obtained by ... measuring pixels on the screen. Hmm, am I supposed to take this as a hit?
A Midchildian gains advantage at 200+ meters, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of you!
However, maximum range for a Belkan is 200 meters, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of me!
Although, because the Wolkenritter comes from the Book of Darkness, as everyone knows, and because the book of darkness created Belkan Knights, and Belkan Knights are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of you.
And you must have suspected I would have known the Belkan Knights origin, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of me!
We're talking about Nanoha, who is the heroine and exceptionally strong, so you could have been just backing her, hoping on her strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of you.
There is six seconds between firing and hit, which means you must have timed it, and in timing learned that Vita could have dodged it, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of me!
You see, I can't compete with you physically, and you're no match for my great Buster!
@Kaijo I don't know if reading arkhangelsk post would help because i have him on ignore... but HUH? WHAT?
I thought I'd interject a bit of humor; I thought everyone would be aware of The Princess Bride. Great, hilarious movie. Note that it means I'm primarily making fun of myself (if you're familiar with the scene).
Kikaifan
2009-10-15, 13:42
He's parodying Vizzini from The Princess Bride. That is, the guy who overthinks everything by about a million times when there's just no clear answer - and the question he's tackling is a false dichotomy anyway.
Oh, I thought you were making fun of the argument.
prescience
2009-10-15, 13:51
That was brilliant....
RadiantBeam
2009-10-15, 22:03
Kajiro, you're brilliant.
Triple_R
2009-10-15, 22:31
I thought I'd interject a bit of humor; I thought everyone would be aware of The Princess Bride. Great, hilarious movie. Note that it means I'm primarily making fun of myself (if you're familiar with the scene).
The Princess Bride was an awesome movie... but it's over 20 years old. Not everybody is going to know about it as such.
Rising Dragon
2009-10-15, 22:38
I certainly didn't. =X
itanshi1
2009-10-15, 22:39
I knew about it :D awesome movie, highly recommended!
oh yeah, question, who is keeping track of the points made, what the points qualify for, and what conclusions are made by the points? Otherwise it's just mental masturbation again with no end in sight. :P
Welcome to the way we work here. You just take mental notes of which to take note of.
itanshi1
2009-10-15, 22:46
but we should write these notes down so we can address dead horse with a eh grave :/
Rising Dragon
2009-10-15, 22:57
Is there even a dead horse left? Because I think it may have been beaten into glue by now.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-15, 23:29
Ah good! Just as I was looking for some to put my new batch of Broadsides together!
*scoots off with equine supaglu*
Archon_Wing
2009-10-15, 23:29
Nobody rush to the glue; there's enough for everybody. ;)
But I used all the glue to make my giant robot.
RadiantBeam
2009-10-17, 15:48
You build a giant robot and didn't tell me? D:
Indeed. It was supposed to be a surprise.
TheShinySword
2009-10-17, 16:02
Since the glue's in the giant robot does that mean people are going to beat the giant robot now?
prescience
2009-10-17, 16:04
That would have to be one hell of an argument...
Archon_Wing
2009-10-17, 16:05
The only thing that can beat a giant robot regardless of circumstances is another giant robot (which for all intents and purposes, includes Nanoha)
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-17, 16:31
I have MEGAS...
Which button should I press?
Rising Dragon
2009-10-17, 16:33
You say that like it matters what button you press in Megas. :V
TheShinySword
2009-10-17, 16:35
I have MEGAS...
Which button should I press?
All of them. At the Same time. Call friends if you need more appendages.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-17, 17:04
*Presses a button...*
*Recieves Bacon.*
"Hey cool..."
*Finds another button labeled: "Retrieve Glue" and presses it.*
RadiantBeam
2009-10-17, 20:43
*Megas explodes*
DezoPenguin
2009-10-17, 20:59
Oh, heck! Glue...everywhere... :)
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-17, 22:56
*Megas explodes*
*Earth is destroyed.*
:confused:
TheShinySword
2009-10-17, 23:07
No worries we have plenty of glue to put it back together with
RadiantBeam
2009-10-17, 23:20
Where does all that glue come from, though?
GlancingReverse
2009-10-17, 23:25
If the Earth exploded, we just need to find where the pieces went and gather all the glue. Not that hard.
How did we get on this topic again?
DezoPenguin
2009-10-17, 23:26
Where does all that glue come from, though?
The dead horse topic they were beating on the previous page. :) It got rendered down to glue...
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-18, 00:20
You guys go and keep wondering where the glue came from; I'm going to take advantage of what the glue is doing to the hawt anime chickas including Fate (oh, and Nanoha). ;)
*pulls out a Gaia Memory*
[TENTACLE]
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-18, 00:35
You guys go and keep wondering where the glue came from; I'm going to take advantage of what the glue is doing to the hawt anime chickas including Fate (oh, and Nanoha). ;)
*pulls out a Gaia Memory*
[TENTAC-http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v430/admiraltigerclaw/chuckicon.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v430/admiraltigerclaw/FatalError.jpg
:heh:
Mistake much?
Aaron008R
2009-10-18, 02:30
Big mistake.:D
The amusement factor is dealt out in spades, though. XD
(Tries to think of a new topic to get back on topic... >_<)
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-18, 02:45
*sees one part of him destroyed and the rest regenerates and slithers away*
:heh:
*Gets out giant robot and squishes dead topic*
...
New topic...
Waffles!
Discuss!
Edit: I'll start then!
I bet that Subaru or Hayate just loves Waffles. They don't get to eat them too often though.
RadiantBeam
2009-10-19, 00:47
I could see Teana secretly having a thing for waffles and hiding them from everyone because she doesn't want anybody to know.
synaesthetic
2009-10-19, 01:06
Now I'm imagining Nena teasing Teana over her waffle affinity.
prescience
2009-10-19, 01:14
Nena? Where did that come from? Pretty amusing, though.
Vita seems like a waffle sort of person to me.
Rising Dragon
2009-10-19, 01:21
Nena? I'm pretty sure she came from the OCT and synae's mind.
prescience
2009-10-19, 01:28
Just wondering if there was some sort of connection I was missing, linking Teana, waffles, and psycho Gundam pilots...
Back on-topic, do you not think that Vivio would look adorable eating waffles?
Rising Dragon
2009-10-19, 01:33
Its hard for Vivio to not be adorable.
RadiantBeam
2009-10-19, 01:36
Vivio is always adorable. Always.
...
Unless she's in her teenage form.
Rising Dragon
2009-10-19, 01:40
Yeah, then she becomes sexy--
*Divine Buster'd*
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-19, 01:43
I'm sure we know the lesson which Rising Dragon so selflessly sacrificed his life to us to teach...
Never call Vivio 'sexy' around Nanoha-mama. EVER.
P_P Rising Dragon! Your Sacrifice shal not be in vain!
Archon_Wing
2009-10-19, 01:47
Nena? Where did that come from? Pretty amusing, though.
Vita seems like a waffle sort of person to me.
I'd agree about Vita, but only in private, and only if Hayate provides them. ;)
prescience
2009-10-19, 01:48
"If it's your waffles, it's OK" ? :heh:
"If it's your waffles, it's OK" ? :heh:
"If you know what i mean"
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-19, 02:05
But hey, it's the psycho Gundam pilots that are cutest with waffles. And syrup. Lots of it. With a dash of Kugyu too.
But yes nothing like WAFFles to start anyone's day on a sugar-high like marathoning Kimi ni Todoke and Nogizaka Haruka MAMIKO BANZAI...
:uhoh:
I don't think Yuuno likes Waffles. People might accuse him of "Waffling"
*FLEEZ!*
RadiantBeam
2009-10-19, 13:08
"If you know what i mean"
...
*headdesk*
Gah! The images! The mental images!
Vivio Testarossa
2009-10-19, 15:42
*Gets out giant robot and squishes dead topic*
...
New topic...
Waffles!
Discuss!
Edit: I'll start then!
I bet that Subaru or Hayate just loves Waffles. They don't get to eat them too often though.
:joke: That's because I steal them from Hayate and Subaru and give them to Vivio. :joke:
Never call Vivio 'sexy' around Nanoha-mama. EVER.
Unless your name is "Hayate Yagami"? :uhoh:
I could definitely see Nanoha eating waffles like crazy...:D
Pfft waffles, truly Animesuki is filled with childish and unsophisticated epicureans!
They know not the awesomeness of... pancakes with maple syrup!
Fie, fie on your waffles. (eats pancakes, OM NOM NOM NOM)
PANCAKES!!! *Dives into the pancakes*
That said, Chrono always struck me as a cereal person.
Why do I get the feeling that Shamal and Fate like French Toast?
prescience
2009-10-19, 19:27
@Keroko: I agree. Dry cereal.
AdmiralTigerclaw
2009-10-19, 22:09
Why do I get the feeling that Shamal and Fate like French Toast?
VIVIO: I like panca-*HEADSHOT*
O_O;
*Puts down his twelve gauge.*
She sounded like the DiC Chibi-usa! (Rini) It was reflex!
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-19, 22:51
What Eurocreants? I have milo tarik and roti prata for breakfast. Or whatever Anita is inspired to cook in the morning. :p
Though it be nice to have the cook along with the toast...
*is stabbed to pieces*
@Keroko: I agree. Dry cereal.Nestle Snowflakes? :uhoh:
Tempest Dynasty
2009-10-19, 23:11
But can Chrono see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
But can Chrono see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
Chrono: Because it adheres to the laws of the Time-Space Administration Bureau?
RadiantBeam
2009-10-20, 07:27
Chrono: Because it adheres to the laws of the Time-Space Administration Bureau?
Kids: Nice try. :p
Blank-Mage
2010-02-07, 04:49
Kids: Kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch because there are cinnamon swirls in every bite!
Chrono: ...I suppose it provides adequate nourishment for daily activity.
MeisterBabylon
2010-02-09, 21:09
Pardon me, but I somehow didn't get the joke... :heh:
Ahh... finished up my rewatch of StrikerS this evening. That makes all three seasons rewatched in six days.
So many things I had forgotten about. I still wasn't able to keep track of all the combat cyborgs names, though. :confused:
I do like how it ends with Subaru rescuing the children in much the same way that she was rescued, as a child, by Nanoha. It gives the whole thing a nice "full circle" feeling.
After that much Nanoha saturation, now that it's over, I'm sitting here wondering what to do next. I guess it's time to read the manga. And then, venture into the world of the Sound Stage, now that I realize there's a translation thread (never looked there before today).
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