View Full Version : Claymore - Spoilers & Speculation
NightWish
2007-05-02, 13:13
The purpose of this thread is to allow free discussion of theories and speculation of the Claymore anime series, but be warned since it may contain unmarked spoilers. Having a central location may help focus the discussion instead of spreading speculation over the various episode discussion threads.
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Well, i make the start.
Can someone confirm, what eye color Clare have bevor she turns into the Claymore? in the present anime arc, we saw a Girl names Clare with green eyes (and brown/orange hair). But, in Episode 3 we saw her under the pills effect with brown eyes.
Is the brown color a side effect of the pills, or are there more behind this?. Im confused...
hope it's all right? (Rules)
Claymore_Obsessed
2007-05-02, 15:34
Well, i make the start.
Can someone confirm, what eye color Clare have bevor she turns into the Claymore? in the present anime arc, we saw a Girl names Clare with green eyes (and brown/orange hair). But, in Episode 3 we saw her under the pills effect with brown eyes.
Is the brown color a side effect of the pills, or are there more behind this?. Im confused...
hope it's all right? (Rules)
About Claire's normal eye color, I'm not sure it is ever stated in the manga (at least I don't remember right now), but it is stated that during the Claymore transformation process, Claymores change some traits such as hair color; so I guess eye color can change too...
Ok, next try to boost thinks up...
When there will be a GAME about Claymore. What do you think it should be alike?
a Diablo 2 Clone?
a Date Sim game?
a Round turn with fields RPG? aka Final Fantasy tactics?
What you think? :)
(If its to off topic. feel free to *slap* me and delete it :)
Xellos-_^
2007-05-04, 11:40
Ok, next try to boost thinks up...
When there will be a GAME about Claymore. What do you think it should be alike?
a Diablo 2 Clone?
a Date Sim game?
a Round turn with fields RPG? aka Final Fantasy tactics?
What you think? :)
(If its to off topic. feel free to *slap* me and delete it :)
I prefer the FFT type for a rpg but Raki is going to be the dead weight for the entire game unless they have him run away at the start of every battle like I did with the bard in FF4.
as for a dating sim game :twitch::eyebrow::D:heh::eyespin:
dutchman
2007-05-04, 12:40
I prefer the FFT type for a rpg but Raki is going to be the dead weight for the entire game unless they have him run away at the start of every battle like I did with the bard in FF4.
as for a dating sim game :twitch::eyebrow::D:heh::eyespin:
H'm a dating sim game would be nice I can see great possibilties there.
start-up ->
see picture of beautifull girl with a faint mysterious smile (Teresa).
Options :
a. Give her some compliments
b. Ask her for a date.
c. Feel her up.
-> gamer chooses c.
....slash...
game screen comes up with 'BAD END'.
Ok retry
see picture of beautifull girl with an innocent yet disturbing smile(Ophelia).
Options:
a. Give her some compliments and ask her for a date.
b. Say you feel as if you have waken up nice and fresh this morning.
c. Give her all your money in exhange for your life, and no you didn't see her killing all the townspeople lying in great heaps around you.
-> gamer chooses a.
...slash...
game screen comes up with 'BAD END'.
....
H'm maybe Claymore is indeed more suited for a tactic / rpg game after all:twitch:
Claymore_Obsessed
2007-05-04, 13:17
I think a RPG would be a great choice, forming your party and all :D
or maybe it could be a fighting game with swords, similar to "samurai shodown" or "last blade".
(for example, Helen would make a perfect Dhalsim-like character, Milia would be all speedy like Chun Li, and so on :D )
Can someone confirm, what eye color Clare have bevor she turns into the Claymore? in the present anime arc, we saw a Girl names Clare with green eyes (and brown/orange hair). But, in Episode 3 we saw her under the pills effect with brown eyes.
Is the brown color a side effect of the pills, or are there more behind this?. Im confused...
I think, i found a solution for this "problem". if this is a Ink typo or not.
If this Clare (Episode 05) is our Clare in the future. Then i found a good excuse for
this Eye color problem.
young Clare = green eyes. More brown hair color
current Clare (with suppressing Youma Pills) = Brown eyes. Hair turn more to blond
It's easy. We have the solution front on our eyes. Theresa Arc...
Yes. Perhaps Theresa have brown eyes, if she would take this pill. And her Hair is much blonder then Clare's :). You get my point? What will happen at the end of the present Arc?
ok what you think about it?. Perhaps they have it, on mind. And this Green eyes is not a Ink typo, at all.
and for the GAME.. I prefer a RPG Style, too. I love Group fightings Japan/Nippon RPGs. Heck, i was raised with Japane anime and RPGs :)
"Bringa, brincando", it all begans with "Future Boy, conan"
Claymore Renegade
2007-06-20, 16:02
IF NOT UP TO SCENE 73 OF MANGA THIS WILL BE CONSIDERED A SPOILER!!!
Ok what do you guys think Isley has in store for Raki because him and Priscila could take over the whole damn world if they really want to since she is stronger the the Abbysal one (counting Riffle) but they seem to be waiting for something since it has been 7 year since Riffle has revealed that Priscila is the strongest being in the claymore universe, and Raki is as close as family to them, it seems they would have something in store for him and i really dont think they just wanted company... and my bro believes they are turning him into a claymore himself but instead of a yoma being put in him, theres a abbysal one in him.
Bikerider
2007-06-20, 16:57
Clare's Soul Link so she will be able to go fully awakened and slice Pricilla into fillets.
Panzerklein
2007-06-20, 18:41
Ok, next try to boost thinks up...
When there will be a GAME about Claymore. What do you think it should be alike?
a Diablo 2 Clone?
a Date Sim game?
a Round turn with fields RPG? aka Final Fantasy tactics?
What you think? :)
(If its to off topic. feel free to *slap* me and delete it :)
A Free Stype PPG like Fallout.
Claymore go around the World, do Org's mission, the character can be good one or bad one it's up to player :D. Bad one is can kill every yoma, normal human and even others claymore :eyespin:, after that charater is most wanted by both human and claymore org :heh:.
Deathkillz
2007-06-21, 17:35
ive been wondering...with raki and clare parting ways in ep 12 i just cant get it out of my head that raki will find a way to become stronger himself in order to "protect" clare as he claims it...the only way to do that would be if he became a claymore...now what are the chances of that happening? :eyespin:
Claymore game? We gotta go Legacy od Kain:Blood Omen, no other choice :D (okay maybe DMC withouth guns and Dante could work too :heh: )
Arutha2321
2007-12-31, 20:12
Actually, I think the MMORPG Claymore would be PERFECT. However they would have to just ignore the "only 47 Claymores" rule. :D
musume_gatsu
2008-01-02, 16:37
Actually, I think the MMORPG Claymore would be PERFECT. However they would have to just ignore the "only 47 Claymores" rule. :D
it could be 47 per guild..
a Kingdom Heart-like Claymore game would be awesome. Action-RPG would just fit the Claymore style IMO. A mere JRPG Claymore would kill the fast paced action.
Damn, now I really want a claymore game xD
Valduran
2008-01-02, 19:31
A Claymore game would probably be best suited to a style something like The Witcher...
But I'd rather have a 2nd season of the anime than a game :uhoh:
FateAnomaly
2008-01-02, 22:06
Unfortunately the anime detracts from the manga too much. It will be hard to continue.
Valduran
2008-01-03, 00:08
Not especially...
They have several options, the most plausible of which would be to have filler episodes detailing the events of the seven years and have them progress to the point where the situation is exactly the same as the manga after the timeskip.
We'll just have to wait and see what they do.
No doubt it's been stated a million times by now, but it would have been way more awesome to have the anime end with the Cliffhanger in Pieta :(
FateAnomaly
2008-01-03, 03:17
Not especially...
They have several options, the most plausible of which would be to have filler episodes detailing the events of the seven years and have them progress to the point where the situation is exactly the same as the manga after the timeskip.
We'll just have to wait and see what they do.
No doubt it's been stated a million times by now, but it would have been way more awesome to have the anime end with the Cliffhanger in Pieta :(
But how are they going to explain the extra Raki and the 3 missing claymore?
Ok, next try to boost thinks up...
When there will be a GAME about Claymore. What do you think it should be alike?
a Diablo 2 Clone?
a Date Sim game?
a Round turn with fields RPG? aka Final Fantasy tactics?
What you think? :)
(If its to off topic. feel free to *slap* me and delete it :)
It HAS to be a 2d fighter with Guilty Gear style animation.
It MUST have a youki meter in addition the health bar! So you have to pace your fights to not go over the limit.
It should play like KOF98 with a modified version of its Advance and Max mode. Offensive types charge their youki meter by attacking, defensive types charge their meter by blocking or going into charge mode which momentarily renders them defenseless. Once the meter gets to a certain level, (25%, 50%, 75%) you can release the youki and unleash even more powerful versions of the special moves. (e.g. 25% Miria teleports in mid jump, 50% she can mirage, 75% she can teleport behind opponents and combo etc.)
But once it goes past the sweet spot say 65%, you do more dmg but your youki meter goes up much faster with each corresponding action and if you max out the youki meter you awaken and lose the round regardless of health. So no overly aggressive cornering combos or constant turtling.
Not sure how an AB character would play with this kind of game mechanics though since awakening would not be a factor...let me sleep on that.
Oh and of course, Teresa as unlockable character!
Shoryu....er, I mean, kosokuken!!
Ah good points. But since Claymores can willingly release yoma powers to the limit (which yields more speed and strength than doing it by mistake as stated by Riful), it can be added just like a DBZ game since they share the same concept of power auras when releasing power.
But killing it in a mere fighting game?! No, please. a spin-off 2d fighting game is ok nontheless but I welcome any :p
You could have all those elements in an action-rpg (Star Ocean, anyone?) but with the added plot to make a wonderful game. Having a team of 4 members fighting Awakening Beings (bosses) and then splitting up for your normal yoma butt-kicking but I digress.
Valduran
2008-01-03, 04:58
But how are they going to explain the extra Raki and the 3 missing claymore?
That's what the fillers would be for...to make Raki get lost again and to have the fab 7 meet up.
Actually, I think the MMORPG Claymore would be PERFECT. However they would have to just ignore the "only 47 Claymores" rule. :D
i'm scared of a WoW-Claymore >_<
hey helen look, i got the uber dbl blades of doom with wind element... deneve, ive got a even more stretchable sleeve, thats part of T5 set... BWAAAAAAAAHHH :frustrated:
Valduran
2008-01-03, 07:28
i'm scared of a WoW-Claymore >_<
hey helen look, i got the uber dbl blades of doom with wind element... deneve, ive got a even more stretchable sleeve, thats part of T5 set... BWAAAAAAAAHHH :frustrated:
Riful on farm status? :p
Argh...such horrible thoughts fill my head. No Claymore-WoW plz :(
Here is something I found lately.
"The director and character designer / chief animation director of the Claymore anime were at Pacific Media Expo just a short while ago, and someone asked if there will be 2nd season for Claymore. The answer: if the fans ask for it, then yes, although it will probably be delayed a little while since it takes time to get these things approved and budgeted.
But yeah, if you like Claymore (as I do) and you want to see more of the anime, try and let people know however you can. Obviously, writing to Japan isn't the easiest solution, but keep talking about it online, and once it gets picked up for American release, write to the distributor. Also, try to let Madhouse know whenever they have panels during conventions (even though it's ultimately up to the financing companies). Heck, even if the manga keeps selling well, it might inspire another season. All these things might help."
It's a quote from a person from another Claymore Forum. So if even director said it, and considering that manga releases monthly, season 2 of Claymore might air around 2010.
chibamonster
2008-01-08, 01:42
By that point it might even be worth it to them to do the entire series in it's completeness. They redid Hellsing recently. They are also redoing Evangelion's ending (for the 4th time). I'm not sure how popular Claymore will be but that would be pretty cool. They could pull an Evangelion and just start at where the endings differ jumping right from where the manga differed from the anime. They would have to go back and add Alicia's entrance into the story with Riful, but I'd forgive them. Of course it will be a little while before the Claymore Series finishes...
You have no idea how happy I would be to see Rigalds fight in its entirety, Alicia's battle with 11 above average AB's, and Isley's fight with Luciella. Not to mention Galatea's battles going on right now.
Valduran
2008-01-08, 01:48
Woot!
Still just rumors, but that's the most solid piece of good news I've heard so far :)
I'd definately love it if they removed the abominable Priscilla fight and fixed inconsistencies. But unlike alot of people I'd be extremely happy to just have 2nd season of any kind.
...After watching a second season of things continuing they way they did, I might be singing a different tune however :p
Stahlwolf
2008-01-08, 02:38
My words on continuation-
And this was also addressed in the General Discussion thread...
I wish for the anime to continue. But if it does, we may have to wait until the entire manga series has ended. Thus, they may make an OVA out of it, deterring from the TV anime's ending, starting at the Battle of Pieta and using the manga's original storyline instead.
It's a wish I asked Teresa-Santa for.
That and for Galatea NOT to die!:upset:
-"Helen! Hide your shame! No more eggnog for you!"
Oh, how I would love to see it continued, though I was pretty disappointed about the rushed slaughtering of the series by the animators. I adore the series and even the slightest information pending on the rumor-level makes me dizzy.
I agree in what Jay1672 said, about keeping talking about. As far as I can see the series did quite well as for me as for much other people. It would be a shame by the producer to not continue the series, since almost all the feedback by people watching/reading Claymore shows it's a pretty cool thing, which you can't tell about many other series ;)
Though I can't bring or more consistent info from my side I just can tell you, keep up the hope!
Didn't know where else to put this:
Anyone else think it's weird there's no one with a name that starts with X?
Alicia
Beth
Clare
Deneve
Eva
Flora
Galatea
Hilda
Irene
Jeanne
Katea
Luciela
Miria
Noel
Ophelia
Priscilla
Queenie
Raphaela
Sophia
Teresa
Undine
Veronica
Wendy
???
Yuma?
Zelda
Aren't there names that could possibly fit with the rest of them? Xena? Xandra? Xavierra? (just picking names off baby name sites >_> )
Wouldn't Xriscilla sound better than Priscilla :heh:
Seriously tho, I never care about names as long as I can remember them x)
There will a new claymore, Raki changed gender and now is.... *dramatic music* XAKI
There will a new claymore, Raki changed gender and now is.... *dramatic music* XAKI
clare and xaki on a awakened hunt, teamgathering:
new nr6: i want to hear your ranks...
clare: 47...
helen clone: WAAH LOL she's the weakest, dead end...
XAKI: no, i'm the last... nr 48...
honestly, what else could he(/she, lol) be? :eyespin:
Negativedark
2008-01-08, 23:26
Well X isn't used very often at the start of names. Heck I'm surprised we got a Q. If I remember correctly it may the the least used letter in the english languege. That's why it's worth so much in Scrabble.
well I posted about 2nd season and told u guys that manga has to stay popular to have 2nd season. (Don't know what I am talking about? go up several messages.)
Anyway, that made me wonder exactly how popular Claymore is.
Does anyone have like some sort of data to show how popular it is?
Is it popular in Japan? and in North America?
Do you think that Claymore would be as popular as Naruto if it was to air in Adultswim or whatever? (in other word, does it appeal to general crowd?)
Wouldn't Xriscilla sound better than Priscilla :heh:
Eww... don't need Priscilla to look like an old man (moderating forums and stuff) :eyebrow:
Do you think that Claymore would be as popular as Naruto if it was to air in Adultswim or whatever?
Dunno. Probably not. The show is dominated by women and the only guy (girl, if you make him Xaki :twitch: ) you see for most of the show cries all the time. Not really something most casual fans really like (I think).
Claymore is not that popular: The show ranks below ten; There aren't enough doujins for it; It's dark; It has gore; Comical scenes are almost non-existent; Hard to attach to characters; Boobs aren't big enough... You get the idea.
Bikerider
2008-01-09, 04:09
It aired late at night. So, audience was limited. The Manga is popular, from what I've read. Shonen Jump thinks it's strong enough to lead the new monthly mag..
Eww... don't need Priscilla to look like an old man (moderating forums and stuff) :eyebrow:
LMAO. It never occurred to me before! But Xris :heh:
Ok, since the Priscilla-Isley thread was being slaughtered with the Teresa discussion, I decided to take it here.
I would like to adress the point made earlier about Priscilla not questioning Teresa for her reasons.
For this I would like to say, would you ask a mass murder why he killed a group of people, bandits or no, without mercy. Teresa slaughtered those bandits, and whether we agree with her decision or not does not change the fact that she did kill people, and more then a few.
To someone with a very focused (aka narrow) sense of justice like Priscilla it is no suprise that she would not ask Teresa the reason why she killed the bandits, the simple fact is that she did.
So what do you suggest be the right action? If someone engaged in "mass murder" as you call it and you had the power to punish the "murderer" what would be your course of action? Kill her right away without listening to any justifications? Keep in mind that those bandits slaughtered the whole village and burnt it down. I am sure that Teresa would careless about the village itself in the first place but what triggered her was the taunting of that idiot when she saw him dragging Clare around.
I understand why Priscilla didn't bother to ask but that's what makes her naive, stupid and frustrating imo.
Also, I am not sure about her other actions, but an agent of justice would not slaughter a group of people, bandits or no, when it is clear they no longer hand any interest in engaging her, or anyone for that matter.
They didn't show interest in engaging with her but how do you know that the bandits would call it off and stop murdering and robbing other villages after that one?
If I were in Teresa's shoes, I'd have done the same thing without blinking an eye.
Negativedark
2008-01-17, 10:23
Anyone who survived from that village would have seen Teresea as a hero. And even today most courts would consider it justifiable if a mother killed someone who had just brutally beaten their child.
And even today most courts would consider it justifiable if a mother killed someone who had just brutally beaten their child.
sry but please tell me where you live :eyespin:
chibamonster
2008-01-17, 13:49
I live in America but it seems Claymore happens to be in medieval times :D Questioning the legality of the incident is certainly interesting as I had never considered it before. Just from a United States point of view; The first two bandits Teresa killed (The rapist and the guy with the falcon sword) would have fallen under Self Defense; "A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, or murder."
The question about the rest of the bandits falls into a legal grey area depending on the location of the incident. It probably wouldn't have fallen under self defense but under use of deadly force. The town hired Teresa to protect them from youma and they agreed to her use of deadly use before so I'm considering her a police officer for the incident.
In the United States this is governed by Tennessee v. Garner, which said that "deadly force...may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others." In Australia, it has recently been proposed that police officers should have this power when a person might in the future pose a threat to others (see Australian Anti-Terrorism Act 2005).
But there wasn't really a legal system in place at the town any more to decide. Her actions might technically been classified as a war so we could look at the Geneva Convention's Laws of War but that might be going to the extreme here. Teresa would not have been punished by any human law at the time.
Her real difficulty was with the organizations law. The fact that they have the right to kill any member of their own organization for killing a human even if it is in self-defense really shows what a nasty time they live in. If we are looking at the organization from our legal point of view they would be the ones on trial. But the Claymore world isn't our world and Teresa killing the bandits sure felt good to me :D.
ROFL @ chibamonster :heh:
I don't think that we should take this and apply our legal systems but rather try to see it from a moral point of view.
The bandits wanted to rape Teresa but because she has some nasty disfiguration in her chest they let her be. They have gone to a village, killed its people, burnt the whole village, tried to enslave all the women, and most likely raped some while they are at and it's highly likely that they have done the same thing to other villages and probably wont stop from doing it in the future. As I wrote before, Teresa probably didn't care that much about the whole village at first but what happened to Clare triggered the killing blow but still it served a greater justice. I would quote Teresa when she said "Damn your existences, for they are lower than that of a yoma.". Those bastards deserved it.
RIP Teresa.
Negativedark
2008-01-17, 19:17
sry but please tell me where you live :eyespin:
New York. And perhaps I should be more clear. What I meant is that in real life Teresea wouldn't have gotten the hardest sentence. Unlike the bandits, who had commited cold blooded murder, that was premeditated, her killing them was an act of passion, brought on by an understandible motivation. In a modern court you won't see a harsh a sentance for someone who commits an act like Teresea as you would for the bandits. They would more likly be charged with counts of Manslaughter than of homicide. That carries a lighter sentance. Now that's in modern society. Witch Claymore is not. In a medival setting, only the org is going to be upset. Assuming the town was self governing, they will only be upset she didn't turn the bandits into dogmeat sooner. If there was a larger ruling body, they wouldn't mind, as she killed those bandits for them, and saved them a lot of trouble. It may seem barbaric to us today, but that's what it was like. It's like a spaggeti western. Sometimes it took a gun wielding badass. Also unlike a real life case, we know that the bandits were guilty, and what Teresea's motivation was. There is no doubt.
chibamonster
2008-01-17, 19:18
Fenrir_valindri posted some interesting things about Teresa in relation to justice in the Priscilla Isley discussion. I figured I would talk about it more here so it won't be deleted when the admins come sweeping through looking at our conversations.
Maybe justice isn't the best word to describe Teresa (although I have used it a bunch in the past). She certainly was no Clark Kent in a world of black and white good and evil. I do, however, think that her motivations were good for most things she did. Really there is little solid justice in the Claymore world. There doesn't even seem to be a real legal system. Rabona was a Theocracy and the Organization seems to be some bizarre form of totalitarian dictatorship or something of the sort. Unlike other fictional universes the good don't seem to win much and the evil aren't necessarily that evil. We can relate to almost all of the characters. Sometimes I even think, "you know, if I were going to be a flesh eating monster I would want to be like Riful. She's really got it down."
From a claymores point of view the organization is really nasty. They kill you if you don't follow them and if you do follow them you will die anyway. But they also saved most Claymores from certain death and provide a necessary service to humanity. Not very clear cut evil even if they are self serving. From a human point of view killing claymores that will become monsters might not be seen as bad either. Good thing humans don't know. I think Teresa recognizes her role in the organizations system better than just about any claymore we have seen.
Teresa in the system. In the extra chapter she won't kill youma unless paid to do so. The reason for this, I think, is apparent from what Teresa knows about the organization; villages that don't pay are annihilated. She knows how the system works and is doing the right thing for the village. Her handler even mentions that he never has difficulty with any of her clients implying that other claymore's don't get the same results. Her threatening black mail is actually protection for the village. In other words her handler was saying that any village she is assigned to is always safe because it pays.
Teresa's arrogant exterior seems to distance herself from humans and at the same time keep them safe. When Clare gives her a hug Teresa throws her off and then kicks her (which was AWESOME when I first saw it). Teresa explains later that any human life for Clare would be better than a claymores life. She was right. Keeping Clare at bay would have been best for both of them in the long run if. But Clare was able to get through Teresa's wall that kept her functional within the organizations system. Teresa followed the rules because it was her decision as she told the one armed bandit. She knew she could disobey at any time. Teresa wasn't held by any dogmatic beliefs because she knew what the organization was. Clare gave her a reason to disobey those rules. Her handler didn't seem very surprised as he always knew the day would come when Teresa made that decision.
Teresa's transition out of the organization; slaughtering humans. This was even more awesome than Teresa kicking Clare. Teresa had done the right thing for her conscience and for the organizations rules by leaving Clare in the town. Clare was safe and wouldn't be forced to live the life of a warrior, Teresa hadn't violated any rules and she could keep going on as the warrior she was with a deeper appreciation for the humanity within her. Then we all know what happened. Someone suggested looking at it from a legal point of view, which is certainly an interesting take. Whatever happened it felt like the right thing to me and I wouldn't have convicted Teresa of anything but being awesome.
At her own execution site Teresa's only real concern was Clare. She knew if she died Clare would become a claymore like herself and never get a human life. Teresa didn't seem to care much for her own life as seen with the bandits attempts at rape but once Clare was threatened Teresa got pissed. I don't think Teresa was suicidal by any means but it does seem that she had lost a fair share of what made her human by the time she met Clare. Teresa's loneliness and sadness that she had become accustomed to is what drew Clare to her in the first place. I still think Teresa had a desire to protect but because of her place in the world it manifested itself in a condescending sort of way. She seemed to enjoy splattering youma blood over humans before she met Clare.
Teresa out of the matrix... err system. Once she thwarted her executioners (by pwning them) Teresa went on to live "because of Clare". The most cuddly part of Claymore. Teresa was willing to protect the village they were going through even though she knew it would blow her cover. I wonder why Teresa hadn't gotten new clothes yet. Every rogue claymore gets new clothes. Usually black ones. But, anyway, Teresa was willing to do something good even if it wasn't going to help her at all. I think that wasn't just a one time thing but a part of who she had been all along. She was always helping others even if they didn't recognize it. Teresa kicking Clare may have been vicious but knowing the life that Clare would lead along with her, was Teresa wrong? I don't think so (not that I approve of kicking kids or anything ...)
In the final fight with Irene and the crew really Teresa could have killed them all at any moment. She didn't have to spar with Irene and she knew the other claymores were down stairs and outside. It was like she was fighting to prove to them that they couldn't beat her. Teresa already knew how powerful she was. Her entire attitude seemed to be showing people instead of telling them. The only indication that she intended to kill any of them came from when Irene blocked her attack on Priscilla but even then I'm not sure Teresa was going to decapitate her. I would have loved it if she had. I'm sure she was considering it but we'll never know.
After the fight Teresa kept telling Priscilla to lower her youki. When Priscilla didn't listen Teresa went back to doing what she did best; speaking through force. She didn't want to kill Priscilla but once it became the only real solution she accepted the responsibility even though she had tried everything she could think of to avoid the situation.
This is just my opinion from projecting what I think Teresa had going through her mind. It is by no means accurate :D It seems to me that Teresa was always trying to do the right thing and help others while keeping them at bay. All the other claymores feared her and humans looked at her as a monster. She obviously had some secret to keep from the organization since she lied about her power to them as well. She was alone at the top and probably had to say the same things to towns again and again to keep them safe and paying for her services. I am surprised she was able to hold together any semblance of humanity in her situation. She seemed to have some feelings about her parents who loved her enough to give her the name she had despite the life on the street before the organization found her.
Awesome perspective, chibamonster. My love for Teresa is deepening. :bow:
Valduran
2008-01-17, 21:02
chibamonster you pwnz us. :(
I think I give up trying to keep up with you. Your thought and insight levels are way too taxing to attempt to emulate. (Not to mention that you pretty much say everything I intend to say, except so much better than I could) I'm just going to sit back and enjoy your massively indepth blog-like posts. :D
Claymore_Obsessed
2008-01-18, 13:18
From a claymores point of view the organization is really nasty. They kill you if you don't follow them and if you do follow them you will die anyway. But they also saved most Claymores from certain death and provide a necessary service to humanity. Not very clear cut evil even if they are self serving.
First of all, great post Chibamonster ^^
This sentence made me think... ^^
I realized that in those days, a regular army was probably the human equivalent of the Org for Claymores...
desertion was sure death, and well, I think there was high mortality among poor peasants (human equivalent of rookie Claymores) with simple forks or billhooks and no armor in a real battlefield...
the Org style of employing soldiers isn't so different from those who existed in real life :uhoh:
chibamonster
2008-01-18, 19:13
I realized that in those days, a regular army was probably the human equivalent of the Org for Claymores...
desertion was sure death, and well, I think there was high mortality among poor peasants (human equivalent of rookie Claymores) with simple forks or billhooks and no armor in a real battlefield...
the Org style of employing soldiers isn't so different from those who existed in real life :uhoh:
Glad you guys enjoyed the post;). There is a reason Teresa is my favorite character.
Yeah, the mortality rate of soldiers at war in medieval times certainly didn't favor survival for the lower ranks. I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it but look at Rabona's soldiers. They might be payed a salary but they are as hardcore as it gets for devotion to a cause. There are few claymores that devoted to what they do. Although I can't blame them. They are not really protecting anything of their own. It's not like their war will ever result in peace. Even when they do kill youma there will always be more jobs and some towns don't pay which brings that towns destruction. Claymores go from one job to the next battling their internal demon ostracized from society constantly traveling, usually alone.
I thought it was great that when Teresa killed the youma after she left the organization and started her usual, I don't need any thanks a man in black will come... before she realized what she was doing. I wonder how many hundreds or even thousands of times she had said the same thing.
Which makes me wonder something; Why do the MiB's travel BEHIND the claymores? Why aren't claymores responsible for the money? The " a man in black" will come get the money routine must have a purpose. What is it?
FateAnomaly
2008-01-18, 22:00
They probably don't want the Claymore to interact too much with Humans. The gold is pretty cumbersome too, its always a big bag. (Just how much do they charge anyway...) Carrying gold around also attract thieves which can be troublesome when they can't be killed. (The MiB are probably authorise to kill themselves) Their priority should be to get to the next mission area.
Negativedark
2008-01-18, 23:22
We do know one thing about how much Claymores charge. It's a lot. Enough so that even though you don't have to worry about getting eaten afterwards you still balk at it. Teresea said that the villages can't really afford to pay that amount. I'm not compleatly sure how that works, but I imagine that the villages will have to scrounge up every bit of savings they have, and in many cases are close to finacial ruin. And remember the Org charges by the Yoma. Don't pay and you will be Yoma bait. That alone can be enough to make the common folk hate Claymores. And that may be part of the reason why the only way to leave the Org's employ is dead. Just imagine if some Claymores were to set up shop themselves, and charge more affordible fees? Especially if they didn't go out of their way to terroize the inhabitants of the town, or just acted more human? The org might find itself out of buisness.
Claymore_Obsessed
2008-01-19, 16:50
Besides the reasons FateAnomaly said, I think it's also a psychological factor, it strikes fear of the Org into villagers...
When will he come? Who shall we give our money to? What if we get the wrong guy? What if our gold is stolen before the MIB comes?
(black is a common dress color, and maybe there are lots of scammers etc pretending to be from the Org to get the money? or maybe not, probably the Org isn't too keen on those guys...)
chibamonster
2008-01-19, 18:22
The handlers really play a weird part of the organization. They do all the thinking. Take all the requests. Are they like secretaries or personal assistants? How do they communicate? They would be traveling a lot and mostly without their claymores. Why are they really there?
Here's another question I have. Why can't Claymores kill humans? I know they mentioned that it was what put trust between the organization and humanity but it isn't like the organization doesn't wipe out towns that don't pay. The organization seems to be killing just fine. What is the big deal if a claymore kills a person or two? It could always be blamed on a youma or the witnesses wiped out. They have kept the truth about awakened beings secret fairly well I would say. Maybe the organization has an image to maintain? It's not like anyone wants to call the claymores unless it is an emergency anyway. Is it to keep the claymores from getting ambitious or getting ideas? What is the reason?
Valduran
2008-01-19, 18:32
Heh, Chiba, maybe we will get a proper explanation for that somewhere down the road, but the way it was introduced makes me think it was just a plot device to move the story along it's intended path. I doubt alot of thought was really put into the reasoning behind why Claymore's aren't suppose to kill humans when it was invented by the author.
The Org obviously doesn't give a rat's ass about human lives(further proof is in Chapter 2 when Rubel tells Clare to wait for backup even though it will mean more human deaths). And even with that rule all the common folk still seem to be freaked out that the Claymores will turn on them anyway. There really doesn't seem to be any logical explanation, best not read too deep into it.
Heh, Chiba, maybe we will get a proper explanation for that somewhere down the road, but the way it was introduced makes me think it was just a plot device to move the story along it's intended path. I doubt alot of thought was really put into the reasoning behind why Claymore's aren't suppose to kill humans when it was invented by the author.
The Org obviously doesn't give a rat's ass about human lives(further proof is in Chapter 2 when Rubel tells Clare to wait for backup even though it will mean more human deaths). And even with that rule all the common folk still seem to be freaked out that the Claymores will turn on them anyway. There really doesn't seem to be any logical explanation, best not read too deep into it.
You know, I've always thought about it like this. In general I mean. Never put too much analysis on fictional details especially the very minor ones because it will exhaust your mind for no benefit or whatsoever. A subject that came to my mind is the discussion we were having about the yoki and how/what/when/blah or whatever it was. The result? Nothing. :D
The only person that I would ever dig around the minor details provided from is Hideo Kojima the creator of Metal Gear Solid game. That guy puts his concepts first and think all the details and then base his games on them. He thinks and thinks deeply and you can always conclude patterns in his games. He is just a genius but I digress.
Some stuff are put there spontaneously and we give it some deep analysis until we hear the mind farts for nothing so I announce my retirement from any further analysis for things which seems too trivial for me such as the yoki stuff unless something really interesting is given to us by Yagi. :p
Tempest35
2008-01-19, 23:09
The handlers really play a weird part of the organization. They do all the thinking. Take all the requests. Are they like secretaries or personal assistants? How do they communicate? They would be traveling a lot and mostly without their claymores. Why are they really there?
Here's another question I have. Why can't Claymores kill humans? I know they mentioned that it was what put trust between the organization and humanity but it isn't like the organization doesn't wipe out towns that don't pay. The organization seems to be killing just fine. What is the big deal if a claymore kills a person or two? It could always be blamed on a youma or the witnesses wiped out. They have kept the truth about awakened beings secret fairly well I would say. Maybe the organization has an image to maintain? It's not like anyone wants to call the claymores unless it is an emergency anyway. Is it to keep the claymores from getting ambitious or getting ideas? What is the reason?
Which is why Ophelia was such a good little Claymore for them, if not a bit crazy sometimes. ^_^ If I think about it, Ophelia's probably one of their better Claymores...
As for why the Org has the 'no-killing' rule. It's the same way dog attacks are handled.
Regular Person: Waaaah~ Youma!
ORG/MIB: Relax, for 10,000 we'll send out a Claymore.
Regular Person: But! But they're half youma too! What if they eat us!?
MIB: They won't. If they kill a human being, they themselves will be killed to prevent them from becoming youma. That is an ironclad law.
Regular Person: ...*breathes easier but still wary* Don't go near them, they are still half youma...they might kill you.
MIB: ...now this will keep the townspeople in a healthy amount of fear for both our warriors and us as well.
Regular Person: But! But they're half youma too! What if they eat us!?
hehe, imagine miria eating a human, really disturbing :eyespin:
imagine helen eating a human, realistic and scary :uhoh:
Negativedark
2008-01-20, 11:10
Well I do remember a fanfiction that would have had a response from Helen along the Lines of "Hey he ate me too!"
To avoid an off topic discussion in Ch#76 thread:
We don't really know for sure why Rafaela's soul link failed all we really know is that she blames herself for it.
Hmmm.. you had me thinking right there. I went through the chapters regarding Rafaela and that incident. I think you have a point. It might have been something to do with someone interfering with the soul link since when Rafaela apologized to Luciela about not being strong enough, Luciela's reply was "That's ok, it's not your fault". Of course that could be just to comfort her sister but IMO it could carry both meanings.
Now I had this crazy idea which made me very excited! What if what we all believe to be a killing hug from Rafaela was actually nothing but a forceful pull back to revert the awakening Luciela? Now, why would I think that? Because in Jean/Clare reverting incidents we see a huge yoki explosion and the one being pulled shows painful expressions (We didn't see Jean's but I suppose it's possible since it was put as a cliffhanger + Clare saying it was a painful exhausting procedure). We also saw those yoma veins surfacing the faces of both. At least the one pulling does for sure since they have to synchronize their yoki with the AB and the AB already has his veins surfacing. All those factors where shown in Rafaela/Luciela's incident! Plus I never thought an AB (let alone an abyssal) would die from just getting his/her back broken! Heck, even Ophelia survived a broken neck while being a claymore. The fact that Luciela's arm fell like she was dead could be nothing but from fainting after reverting back forcefully. This theory could also come in favor of what we think Riful is aiming for and that is to neutralize Priscilla.
We never really heard Rafaela saying that she "wants" to kill her sister or that she hates her. It was all Rubel's assumption. Also come to think of it, why would Rafaela try to kill her sister using that bear hug? Luciela was powerless and all what Rafaela had to do was swing that claymore and cut that neck of Luciela with ease and save her the pain she would go with a broken back.
You might ask about how did Rafaela think that an AB could revert back, I think it's obvious. She was taught how to use soul link for this very same purpose! to revert back the AB. So I don't think it's that far fetched. What Clare and Galatea did was a crude soul link in that it only reverts the AB while a complete soul link controls that AB throughout his awakening process (before, during, and after).
Now, I know all of this is wild speculation. I wouldn't be surprised if Luciela and Rafaela showed up sometime in the future together as normal claymores. This of course could pose a dangerous plot-destroyer which is that ABs can be forcefully brought back which is just not right since our fab 7 could just go wild and revert back as they please (Although knowing the fab7 would never risk such a thing) but if my theory was right, I am sure Yagi wont ruin it like this. Maybe he will show us that Luciela reverted but died afterward as it was done forcefully. Who knows. I am just excited right now! :D
The twins while more succesful than Rafaela's they are still not a total success acording to the MIB there link is still unstable
I don't remember coming across a statement like that. Could you remind where did you read that?
Its when Rubel is telling Galatea not to disturb Beth, because its a very important time for her when she's restoring her sister, and needs full concentration to do it.
Alicia and Beth were probably an overall better achievement than Luciella and Rafaela. More similar, and even less humanity to cause instability.
---
The idea of Rafaela restoring her sister has definite coolness to it, but I think that such events would damage the dark feel of the manga.
People like Luciella, Rafaela or Irene after her encounter with Rafaela... should stay dead.... Also why I think Teresa waking inside Clare is risky... neutralizes the dark emotional value of the scenes.
Tempest35
2008-01-29, 08:04
Well, who said that it woud be a sane Teresa awakening within Clare? Teresa was a merciless warrior before she met Clare, if she were to 'revert' back to those pre-Clare days within Clare, she will become a monster. But that particular senario probably won't happen at all. :heh:
What I do think will happen is the ORG biting the dust at the hands of its own creations. ^^ Both Claymore and Awakened One alike.
The idea of Rafaela restoring her sister has definite coolness to it, but I think that such events would damage the dark feel of the manga.
People like Luciella, Rafaela or Irene after her encounter with Rafaela... should stay dead.... Also why I think Teresa waking inside Clare is risky... neutralizes the dark emotional value of the scenes.
While reverting an AB could be seen as a happy event, I don't see it as such in Luciela's case. We don't even know if Luciela will accept the reversion or she would re-awaken. This makes room for a struggle between the sisters and Luciela herself reconsidering herself as an AB.
Having Luciela as a normal claymore again opens new potential events and twists for those 2.
As for Teresa waking inside Clare, I never really understood what you mean. Do you mean that one day Clare would wake up and look in the mirror to find Teresa standing? Clare gaining Teresa's power? or Clare becoming possessed by Teresa and becomes nothing but a vessel?
More like a Zangetsu inside Ichigo thing... so that Clare can communicate with Teresa and have her support in battle.
I wonder how Clare will fare against Priscilla's super youki considering that even Teresa couldn't make sense of that much.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-02-01, 01:02
More like a Zangetsu inside Ichigo thing... so that Clare can communicate with Teresa and have her support in battle.
I wonder how Clare will fare against Priscilla's super youki considering that even Teresa couldn't make sense of that much.
I personally hope that if Priscilla dies that it won't be in 1 on 1 with Clare, it would be very unbelievable if not done PERFECTLY.
So I would prefer it if Clare worked together with other powerful Claymores (and maybe Riful) to take Priscilla down.
Claymore has shown us several times that Team power < Solitary, unless we count Teresa, but she is a special case as always.
chibamonster
2008-02-01, 01:07
Oh Anima, I thought we went through the whole Luciella awakening thing before. Of course that was face smasher who brought it all up. Had a link to another forum and everything (if I am remembering this correctly). But then again, you wouldn't know anything about that now would you? :D
As for the Clare Teresa connection it's hard to say. We have that whole dream sequence (which some see as a dream and others see as an unconscious connection) and then Clare's bizarre ability to get exponentially stronger when she crosses her limit; something that the other partially awakened do not do. We don't know if it is impossible for them, but either way Clare gets a power boost that is beyond compare as if she were tapping into Teresa's power levels, not her own laughable youki levels. Even with Irene's arm she was considered weak, and in most of the fights the arm was doing most of the work.
From what I understand, Clare only got really good at youki sensing (you know, really good) after her partial awakening. I know that's a sticky subject. It just seems to me that it wasn't just the quality of her youki that improved but her ability mimicked Teresa's. Maybe she was just working to mimic Teresa's fighting ability? But how would Clare know Teresa's fighting style? It wasn't like she could sense youki and the only claymore who had any idea what Teresa specialized in was Irene. So unless Teresa sat Clare down and said, "When you become a half demon fighting machine like me, which I don't want you to ever do, make sure to focus on your youki reading ability so you can pwn n00bs like I do." Maybe Clare researched it in the compendium of claymore fighting skills? It's all speculation. But she had difficulty with normal youma until her ability jumped after her partial awakening and she could distinguish not only location, but almost predict the future of the youki movements.
As for Priscilla, I'm hoping for some form of redemption for her. :D If the manga boils down to Clare growling "I will never forgive you" for pages on end through her partially awakened teeth I will read it, put it down and cry.
Oh Anima, I thought we went through the whole Luciella awakening thing before. Of course that was face smasher who brought it all up. Had a link to another forum and everything (if I am remembering this correctly). But then again, you wouldn't know anything about that now would you? :D
I seriously don't remember having this discussion before or even reading about it! :confused:
Linky to the old discussion, please.
If Priscilla was forgiven like in the anime, it would just be extremely unsatisfying. As for Clare's youki reading... I think that even the early 'let the youma run her hand through me' decision would largely have been because of the youki reading, since otherwise its a monstrous risk where something vital could end up lost.
As for Clare's awakened strength... it doesn't really seem Teresa class. More like base-Teresa class. Look at how Teresa took down Rosemary, at 10% or matched 80% Priscilla. Rigardo... who actually wasn't doing all that awesomely against Miria would probably just have been dismembered by regular Teresa... and just instantaneously extinguished by an awakened Teresa(kinda like what Priscilla almost did to Isley).
Fenrir_valindri
2008-02-01, 08:58
If Priscilla was forgiven like in the anime, it would just be extremely unsatisfying. As for Clare's youki reading... I think that even the early 'let the youma run her hand through me' decision would largely have been because of the youki reading, since otherwise its a monstrous risk where something vital could end up lost.
As for Clare's awakened strength... it doesn't really seem Teresa class. More like base-Teresa class. Look at how Teresa took down Rosemary, at 10% or matched 80% Priscilla. Rigardo... who actually wasn't doing all that awesomely against Miria would probably just have been dismembered by regular Teresa... and just instantaneously extinguished by an awakened Teresa(kinda like what Priscilla almost did to Isley).
Like as simple Clave vs Priscilla ending, if Priscilla was to be forgiven, it would have to be done perfectly to be convincing.
The Anime definitely did it the wrong way.
Although I do see it being easier to pull of then convincing me that Clare can win against Priscilla 1v1.
I agree that Clare's Partially-Awakened form was probably around Base-Teresa's level.
As for Rigaldo not doing so awesome against Miria, you have to remember Miria is the fastest warrior with her Mirage, but she can only use it in bursts (back then) which is why he had a hard time hitting her earlier on, but completely dominated everyone else, and it was also the reason the fight was over the moment that Miria could not use Mirages anymore.
chibamonster
2008-02-01, 13:16
It is just my personal pet hope but I want Clare to help Priscilla return from her awakening. I have some reasons I want to see it (mostly because it would be so difficult emotionally) but I know it is not a popular motion. But Clare and Priscilla still have not even met in years. There is going to be plenty of development before they finally throw down the gloves.
My mistake Anima. It wasn't you who brought it up. It was Gooral. It starts on page 215 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=46916&page=215)of the Japanese Manga thread with post 4299 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1255329&postcount=4299).
And strangely enough, right before it I noticed a very simmilar power-level discussion to what is currently going on in the power spec thread :eyebrow: It is funny how the japanese manga thread really used to be the only thread for just about everything.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-02-01, 13:45
A fact that the mods hated, which is why my thread was formed :p
Ah I see. I am glad others also saw what I had in mind. That's probably why I had no replies since all the discussions regarding this took place before. I bet most of you thought that I was a smart ass repeating someone else's idea and claiming it was mine! :uhoh:
I assure you I didn't. I came up with that theory all by myself, honest. :D
* goes and read all the discussions regarding that matter.
Anyone has any speculations about how the orgs are going to die? if not by Miria's sword then how....?
I hope Alicia somehow goes crazy and wipes then all out. I think Rub will survive though and we'll see him standing somewhere fixing his hat on his head in the end.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-02-28, 13:13
I'd assume that they would survive if Miria's group didn't eventually take them down.
Riful doesn't seemed interested in fighting the Org.
And judging by Isley's inactivity, niether is he.
The chances of Alicia going berserk are low so long as they don't put Alicia/Beth in a disfavorable posistion in the first place.
My theory is that the org members are all awakened ones and that they're just playing their game with the whole world, maybe the abyssals knew that so they never attacked the org.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-02-28, 13:20
Unlikely, since Isley sent 11 ABs with the intent of killing or seriously damaging the Org.
I think the MiB are failed male warriors, simliar to Clarice, so they were never really under the threat of awakening like other male warriors.
So they just kind of took over the reigns of the Organization and have kept in charge.
chibamonster
2008-02-28, 13:29
It would be so funny if Clarice tried to release more of her youki to get more power and it just wasn't there. That or if Riful tried to torture her awake and it just never happened because she didn't have enough youki.
Although I was fairly impressed with her blitz against agatha. Good going Clarice. Although the crying bit seemed a little anticlimactic.
Unlikely, since Isley sent 11 ABs with the intent of killing or seriously damaging the Org.
I think the MiB are failed male warriors, simliar to Clarice, so they were never really under the threat of awakening like other male warriors.
So they just kind of took over the reigns of the Organization and have kept in charge.
It makes sense but, something is not quite right. - They are ridiculously overconfident. They seem to fear too little; and showing this much confidence only out of need to keep the warrior's high morale up is unlikely. The only thing that seems to worry them is living up to the tasks given by the board.
I keep on thinking: what was it that made Orsay so terrified to hear the reason of Teresa's betrayal. What was he so afraid of? It was clear to him that she wasn't going to give them any trouble; aside from killing a couple of yoma for free, which is a bit of a mind steer for the villages who might just start taking it for granted.
It's not like there weren't any candidates for number one, so losing her wouldn't be that significant either. I think he was scared to death Rimuto will have his head for this failure.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-02-28, 13:42
I think "melodramatic" is the word you are looking for, and we have seen far more melodramatic stuff in Claymore b4.
I think "melodramatic" is the word you are looking for, and we have seen far more melodramatic stuff in Claymore b4.
I... wouldn't be too melodramatic being Ophelia's handler. She could cut my head off, later saying a yoma did it. :heh:
melodramatic stuff in claymore? you've gotte be kidding me :P
yezhanquan
2008-03-01, 05:01
melodramatic stuff in claymore? you've gotte be kidding me :P
Agreed.
Yagi-sensei has painted a bleak world in this story. I cannot help but think that there are powers that are not yet revealed, some puppet masters who could make Riful and Isley look like kids.
Awakened
2008-03-01, 18:52
Priscilla might die by Raki's hand. I think Priscilla loves Raki, so she will never harm him. In the end he will have to chose between Clare and Priscilla. If Clare is about to die by Priscillar's hand, Raki might have to step in to protect Clare.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-03-01, 20:56
I doubt it will be that simple, he has (supposedly) been living with her the past 7 years, that type of relationship won't end as simply as Raki killing Priscilla to save Clare, I do see him stopping Priscilla from killing Clare though, if that scenario pops up.
To avoid an off topic discussion in Ch#76 thread:
Now I had this crazy idea which made me very excited! What if what we all believe to be a killing hug from Rafaela was actually nothing but a forceful pull back to revert the awakening Luciela?
oh wow, I actually had the exact same idea and I wrote a long ass essay about it (too bad it is in Chinese xD).
but yea I fullly agree with you on this matter and I can't wait for Rafaela to appear again XD
yezhanquan
2008-03-01, 22:46
I do believe that Rafaela killed her sister. My gist is that she spared Irene, and after settling her affairs, she took to the wild with Irene.
chibamonster
2008-03-01, 23:01
Seeing Raphaela with Irene would blow my mind. If Luciella were somehow alive to (although I do not think she is) I'd freak out. That would be enough to disrupt the balance of power. Raphaela is a walking nuclear bomb of power I think. I am excited to see what she is up to because she is definitely alive somewhere. If Irene is alive I hope she gets out of the whole warrior lifestyle and gets to live as human somewhere. I fear that if she were alive and decided to fight she would not live through it.
If Irene is alive I hope she gets out of the whole warrior lifestyle and gets to live as human somewhere.
She already gave up on the "warrior lifestyle" after facing Priscilla and realizing that shes never gonna beat Priscilla I think, so even if she is alive i doubt she will do any fighting. (Although I kinda want to see it xD, and I definitely want to see Raphaela fight too)
chibamonster
2008-03-01, 23:17
Yeah, she probably won't be doing any fighting until she senses Clare in trouble again :( ...
yezhanquan
2008-03-01, 23:33
I do believe that Claymore may eventually have a Ragnarok scenario, where the gods and the living beings take sides in a battle to change their place in the world.
chibamonster
2008-03-01, 23:40
Now that would be a twist. After reading Yagi's last work angel densetsu I wonder if a huge in depth back story is going to be what he is after or not. That manga focused almost entirely on characters and their interactions. Claymore is really the same way with quite a bit more fighting.
So far there are 2 looming secrets that have been blatantly mentioned; Miria's info about the darkest secret of the organization and Riful's "thing" she found to level the playing field. They might even be the same thing. We don't get much of the "why the organization is doing this or that" speeches from the MIB's and we don't get much info to characters ultimate motivations during the fights, like other shonen manga, or really anything like that. We don't even know what Isley is really after yet. We may never know the backstory of the universe for claymore. I am going to think about this some more though.
yezhanquan
2008-03-01, 23:54
So far, be it the MIB, Isley or Riful, their vision is limited to their immediate situations. Either it's limited, or their plans are not fully known to us.
In the Claymore world, only two gods were known: Clare and Teresa (The statues we see in town, and the Teresa which we're familiar with know the story). I'm thinking that the two are very real, and may be watching from the sides for now.
What is Irene supposed to do even if she does want to help Clare and isn't scared shitless of any powerful AB that they're fighting? She can't hold a sword, Clare is not going to return her arm yet, and Clare is probably much stronger than her by now.
yezhanquan
2008-03-02, 06:06
I'm going that she regenerate her arms. Although they're weaker than her old ones, it'll have to do. Like the 7, she might eventually realise that Yoki isn't everything to being a good warrior.
She isn't a defensive, no arm is going to grow for her(although I'm not sure if the manga contradicts me somewhere). Most likely her arm wounds would just scar over.
In any case, the addition of another powerful warrior isn't really needed, there are already enough characters to focus on. On a basic level though, Irene doesn't seem to have a desire to return to the fight, and no compelling reason to force her to do it, that she'd spend years working her ass off to become stronger.
yezhanquan
2008-03-02, 06:36
Offensives can regenerate limbs, but only at the strength of a normal human + it takes more time.
I cannot help but feel that there are some puppet masters (not revealed, of course) with powers greater than even Priscilla.
I think that if irene is alive, she'll be awakened.
After Clare left she had a strange feeling in her arm. The onlyest explanation for this I can think of is that she died or awakened.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-03-02, 12:38
I highly doubt a puppetmaster more powerful then Priscilla would have gone unnoticed for so long.
The only possible puppetmasters are the MiB.
Alicia may just be stronger then we have been led to believe, and the Org could very well be even with Isley in the power struggle, Riful hasn't actually met the completed Alicia after all, and I imagine Beth and Alicia fighting without doing their Awakened trick are quite potent.
yezhanquan
2008-03-02, 18:56
Powerful, as in using non-Yoki based powers.
I'm thinking more in the terms of gods. Well, we know that Clare and Teresa were named after two ladies. My bet is that they are very real, and there are more like them.
I highly doubt a puppetmaster more powerful then Priscilla would have gone unnoticed for so long.
The only possible puppetmasters are the MiB.
Alicia may just be stronger then we have been led to believe, and the Org could very well be even with Isley in the power struggle, Riful hasn't actually met the completed Alicia after all, and I imagine Beth and Alicia fighting without doing their Awakened trick are quite potent.
I'd say the MIBs have some power unknown to us for sure, I can't imagine some powerless human running the org for couple hundred years =/.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-03-02, 20:13
It would compeletely come from nowhere if we bring in ultra-powerful beings that don't use Yoki, it would change the world of Claymore (and possibly not for the better.)
The MiB are probably former male warriors that didn't awaken, but I don't see them being stronger then single digit ABs, let alone someone like Priscilla.
Awakened
2008-03-02, 21:03
The Mib could be verry powerfull, they just let claymore do all the work. No need for them to risk thier lives when they can let a expendeble claymore do the work for them.
yezhanquan
2008-03-02, 23:06
It would compeletely come from nowhere if we bring in ultra-powerful beings that don't use Yoki, it would change the world of Claymore (and possibly not for the better.)
The MiB are probably former male warriors that didn't awaken, but I don't see them being stronger then single digit ABs, let alone someone like Priscilla.
Not completely out of nowhere. We know that Teresa and Clare were named after goddesses, and we do see the statues. In a fantasy world, if there are no gods, THAT is something out of nowhere IMO. All that is needed is to show that they are real.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-03-02, 23:17
I doubt the world would be in such a shoddy condition if two Goddesses existed, or at least were active enough to make their presence felt.
If they do exist, and haven't intervened by now, it would still be out of place if they did act up now.
I also doubt the MiB would be very powerful, or they could have stopped several of the disasters that happened themselves, specifically Lucalea's awakening. So if they are former-warriors, it is doubtful they are above low-single digit level (with some exceptions)
yezhanquan
2008-03-02, 23:19
I take a Greek mythology look at it. There are good gods, and there are bad ones.
I don't know. The wait has already begun for 79 =X.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-03-02, 23:21
Greek mythology's gods kinda suck; Zeus was a lech, Hera was a jealous wife who would never leave her husband despite all the sleeping around he did.
Even some of the better ones like Apollo and his sister were still extremely cruel to humans at certain times.
Teresa and Clare being the Godesses of Love wouldn't really have an impact on this conflict anyway, at least not without going completely against what they are supposed to be.
My explenation for the fact that MIBs are so old, never get caught using yoki and don't show their powers if it's avoidable is that they are ABs surpressing their yoki for several hundred years. If they were to use yoki, all this time would be wasted and they couldn't play around with claymores for quite a time. We don't know if its possible for an AB but if they would stay in human form it could be.
And WTF gods have nothing to do in claymore, they just have to have some statues and churches. This is a kinda realistic series, thats why clare's not going to priscilla and making mincemeat of her.
My explenation for the fact that MIBs are so old, never get caught using yoki and don't show their powers if it's avoidable is that they are ABs surpressing their yoki for several hundred years. If they were to use yoki, all this time would be wasted and they couldn't play around with claymores for quite a time. We don't know if its possible for an AB but if they would stay in human form it could be.
Hmm, I'm not sure if I could accept them as being awakened beings. They certainly look wierd that's true. I do think they are yoma. The reason why I believe this to be true is because Teresa mentioned towns that fail to pay, are obliterated...the MIB either command the yoma or are the yoma themselves who attack the town. That is how they feed as well, and do not hunt humans in the open. If they were awakened, their lust for food would be too great, if they were low scale yoma, the could live forever and not be so hungry all the time.
Also, it's interesting that all the MiB are males...it's an extremely patriarchal society, the men are controlling the women, claymores, as slaves and do with them as they please.
Teresa said that it was a story that villages that don't pay are descended upon by youma. Although if youma found out that a place was definitely unprotected, the feast might be kinda hard to ignore, and their usual carefulness and hiding would be completely unnecessary.
I had a thought the other day about the MiB...we have seen pretty much the major power players in the series up to chapter 78. However, the MiB remain a mystery and are shrouded with intrigue, my thought was, what if the MiB are not humans. Most people have guessed that they might very well be the failed male claymores from the first generation. That may be possible, but what about them being yoma originally not human. And they then started experimenting to blend in furthur with humans by mating/hybridizing with humans.
The MiB could be a result of that...we all know that a claymore which is half human half yoma is way stronger than regular yoma. You would think regular yoma would be stronger no? That's usually not the case, so what if the MiB are actually similar to claymores, but the opposite in that they were yoma first and then became half humans. Their power levels might be quite high as well if this were the case, way more than regular yoma :) just a thought, I haven't seen this speculated on anywhere yet so thought I'd add that in
I had a thought the other day about the MiB...we have seen pretty much the major power players in the series up to chapter 78. However, the MiB remain a mystery and are shrouded with intrigue, my thought was, what if the MiB are not humans. Most people have guessed that they might very well be the failed male claymores from the first generation. That may be possible, but what about them being yoma originally not human. And they then started experimenting to blend in furthur with humans by mating/hybridizing with humans.
The MiB could be a result of that...we all know that a claymore which is half human half yoma is way stronger than regular yoma. You would think regular yoma would be stronger no? That's usually not the case, so what if the MiB are actually similar to claymores, but the opposite in that they were yoma first and then became half humans. Their power levels might be quite high as well if this were the case, way more than regular yoma :) just a thought, I haven't seen this speculated on anywhere yet so thought I'd add that in
I was thinking that the MiB are some sort of different type of human yoma hybrid. Mabye they were the first ones to try testing infusing yoma flesh into humans, and many probably died, and the only ones left are the ones we know. If thats what they did mabye they can live forever but still age and be killed.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-03-10, 12:09
Yeah, they themselves could be failed creations.
With my Male Claymore fic I was gonna have them be the "true" first generation of hybrids, but they couldn't use Yoki at all, they just had enchanced speed and strength, but they wanted to do more, thus Isley's generation was created. ;)
I was also think what if the MiB were creating warriors before the first generation that everyone know of. What if they just kept on experimenting until they finally got it right.
Negativedark
2008-03-10, 12:45
Or my pet thoery that the MIB are the real Vorocous Eaters (though I don't think I was the person who came up with the theory.). Well I don't think that's too likly now, but hey it was fun to throw out there.
chibamonster
2008-03-10, 16:38
Maybe the Goddesses of Love are angry with Clare because she prayed to the God of Rabona when she got in trouble. That is the real reason she is in trouble. :D
I have wanted to see a youma human cross over, as opposed to a human youma claymore, for some time. Without knowing much of the biology or reproductive cycle of a youma it is difficult to say. If the MiB are more powerful than single digits it would be a bit crazy. I think Rubel might be though :D. I like the idea of the MiB's eating the towns themselves.
We do know, however, that the organization has created youki suppressants which can mask a hybrids youma characteristics and make them appear with normal human eyes, erasing their youki trace for the most part and stopping their youki sensing ability. I do not think they just developed them for situations like Rabona. The pills play a huge part of the story and I wonder if they play a part of the MiB's sovereignty as well.
tenken627
2008-03-10, 20:53
Or the MiB themselves can be a totally different form of life altogether that has lived long before the existence of the youma themselves. The purpose of the Organization right now that we know of is to create beings (Claymores) capable of fighting youma and "protecting" humans. This may not have been their "purpose" in the past. Or even their true purpose now in the present. Honestly, there seems to be more to the Organization's purpose than just protecting humans, who they don't really seem to care much for anyways. More like the Organization is just looking out for themselves only.
The Awakened Beings are formed from Claymores, who in turn are formed by the Organization. So the Organization predates Awakened Beings.
It was the Organization who also created male Claymores, so I doubt that the MiB would be the remnants of their own failed experiments.
Most likely it was the Organization itself that created youma in the first place for some particular reason. The youma could have also been failed experiments for power that had very unfortunate results. This probably resulted in the Organization's formation of Claymores, combining youma attributes into human flesh and psyche, to combat their own mistakes.
Or creating youma has helped the Organization create and retain power, by forcing the world to require the Organization's help in dealing with youma. This leads to them being the most powerful faction in the world - or at least until they discover about Claymores turning into Awakened Beings.
Villages and towns who do not pay are obliterated by large groups of youma, and it is insinuated that it is the Organization who sends the youma or at least tells them that a particular town no longer has Claymore protection.
There is more to the relationship between the Organization and the youma than just kill and be killed.
I think the organization is afraid of Easly walking in and destroying them. So they probably try real hard to get there claymores to be as obiedant as possible so at the snap of a finger they would die for the organization in a second if they had too.
Negativedark
2008-03-10, 21:01
On a different sort of speculation... I've realized what Claris's worst fear is. What will happen when Miatia discovers boys....
Miatia-"Oh look mama, he's cute!"
Claris-"Maitia, No!"
Maitia cuts off all her victims clothes.
Yeah then Miata will start wondering why wherever she goes every boy is no where to be seen.
I know there's been a conversation on the possibilty of unknown forces on different continents, but I had another random thought, and thought about how awakened beings, claymores, or even some of the MIB could have fled the continent they were on to another one. There could be former warriors of the organization living in piece somewhere, or awakened beings controling parts of that continent with no one there from the organization to stop them. Or mabye MIB have secretly left and are creating new warriors that the organization doesn't know about. The organization is on there 78th generation but on the other side of the world they could be on there 50th or 4th or whatever. Oh the posibilties are endless.
there has been no indication of other lands...all we know is there are N,S,W,E and no mention of different continents, sure there could be other lands...but I somehow doubt it, claymore would take too long to cover other lands. The mangaka has said the series would be about 160ish chapters right? so that means its almost half way done, I don't see how they could create new enemies in a different world in that short of a time
If there is a second series made after this one I think it would be like what I was talking about earlier. But it is highly douphtful another series would be made.
there has been no indication of other lands...
didn't irene say that she was on another continent where the org doesn't exist for a long time after her arm loosing?
didn't irene say that she was on another continent where the org doesn't exist for a long time after her arm loosing?
Which chapter and page was that on?
Which chapter and page was that on?
Dunno, and I'm too lazy to search (and I'm not 100% sure) so I phrased it as a question :p
but it should have been around Irene meeting Clare
I looked for it and I couldn't find it, are you sure you weren't thinking of another manga? Lol
Defiled one
2008-03-13, 15:53
Yeah then Miata will start wondering why wherever she goes every boy is no where to be seen.
Actually, if you notice the anime and manga. People "do" take their children away from Claymores due to their reputation :cool: After all, the danger of a Claymore taking a child is very high, especially a female child. While, on the other side, boys tend to be rebelious once a woman appears...probably mesmerized "with gold" by a Claymore, a youth could have an unpleaseant experience with one...after all, they are women who long for some company. :uhoh:
I think beyond Isley`s territory "North area of Pieta" Yeah, beyond that...no one has ever survived the crossing journey, or at least came from it.
[QUOTE=Defiled one;1458593] While, on the other side, boys tend to be rebelious once a woman appears...probably mesmerized "with gold" by a Claymore, a youth could have an unpleaseant experience with one...after all, they are women who long for some company. :uhoh:QUOTE]
I don't know if you can say there mesmerized, mabye more curious.
I think claymore women long for more than just some company. Makes me kind of wish I lived in the claymore world.:naughty::D
I think claymore women long for more than just some company. Makes me kind of wish I lived in the claymore world.:naughty::D
Hehe, if you were lucky the first one you would meet would be Ophelia, she'd show you who's the man in the relationship :heh:
LMAO Thats assuming I meet her before she died. But now that I think about it Ophelia is such a nut case she probably never thought about any of that kind of company. She had her pretend brother who has been dead for who knows how long. XD I'd rather have a run in with the seven ghosts, they are probably extremly longing for some company. Then again a lot of people probably would.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-13, 18:10
Hello everyone, i'm new here i apologise for this but i assume this is the right thread for theories so i'll post here if it's okay, looking for some feedback.
It's to do with the manga so i'll put it in a tag?!
What are the chances that clarice is also a quarter yoma with the same base material ie. teresa as clare? I was trying to find info and this forum was the closest i could find to coherent so i'm here seeking some clarification.
Okay now this theory is based on a couple of things that could easily be wrong as i'm going on memory and possibly bad translation.
1. clarice says that she's apparently special to the other claymores in the north before she's ignored, and clare is referred to as the special soldier in the extra scene.
2. beyond the obvious similarities of having the same number and similar names they are also both in a way considered 'failures' i'm sure that rubel said something about clare being considered such to the other Mib's.
3. clarice is the next generation from clare and i'm thinking that this is because clare was believed dead, and so the experiment of using teresa's blood/flesh could be safely repeated. Because... if the same yoma is used then two claymores could possibly use the soul link. I'm pretty sure this is a pre-requisite mentioned somewhere. I'm not sure if i read it on this forum somewhere, but the question how could they preserve the flesh in medieval society is easily not so hard if an icestore/icehouse was used for storage.
4. clarice and clare are opposite mentalities, (i'm thinking this is important, because rapheala and luciela were maybe too similar and beth and alicia have apparently no ego and are not mentioned as being defensive or offensive.) Clare is quite frankly a beserker of an offensive claymore whereas, clarice seems overly passive and defensive claymore. You can compare the way clare attacked helen after getting some lip at her first awakened hunt to the way clarice just takes it from the claymore in the north on her first.
5. clare's overall mentality impoved after gaining a reason to live in raki, whereas clarice seems to have just gained a reason to fight after being introduced to miata (i'm wondering how much of this is intentional).
My specific thinking behind this is that rubel is playing a power game and delibaretely misled the mib's about clare on more than one occasion. I think it's called a xanatos gambit or something like it, but he does seem to be smiling alot.
It would be helpful if we knew who sent clarice a number 47 on an awakened being hunt in the north (i think it was mentioned to clare in the slashers that they are rarely in their 30's) she missed clare that time, but voila now she's in the vicinity of clare on her second mission... She may be considered expendable, as opposed to troublesome, but she's so green you'd have to wonder why there'd be so willing to get rid of her...
There is more, but i'll wait until i can think clearly, i would appreciate any helpful thoughts on the subject though... thanks for your time.
There isn't much to say about Clarice, anything you have read about her here is all speculation, but I have a feeling that a lot of questions we'll be answered next chapter. The 7 ghosts will probably confront her and Miata, and mabye even let them join.
Negativedark
2008-03-13, 21:59
There isn't much to say about Clarice, anything you have read about her here is all speculation, but I have a feeling that a lot of questions we'll be answered next chapter. The 7 ghosts will probably confront her and Miata, and mabye even let them join.
Claris-"Who are you people?"
Miria-"We are the seven ghosts of Pieta."
Miatia-"Ahhh! Momma, I'm afraid of ghosts!"
Helen-"She's not all there in the head, is she?"
tenken627
2008-03-14, 00:30
I have a speculation on what is going to happen soon. Possibly within the next 10-15 chapters (after chapter 78).
Speculation: Alicia/Beth kills Riful
Reason: It was Riful who the organization scouted with Alicia, when Alicia was not yet complete (during the fight between Clare/Galatea/Jean and Duph). Alicia was asked specifically if she could take out Riful at that point. She replied she would do 50% damage to Riful before dying. After that her training was taken up a notch.
This might be the first time we see the true power of Alicia/Beth. I do not see the organization trying Alicia first on Isley, due to Priscilla's power at his side. The safer choice to test out Alicia would be on Riful. The direct scouting report by Alicia on Riful also confirms this suspicion.
Alicia should be near completion if not completed. It was revealed during the battle of Pieta that she was 95% complete. Actually, if Miria read Audrey right, then Alicia is already completed (after 7 years passed). Alicia already took care of the 11 Awakened Beings that were sent by Isley easily. The next test should be Riful.
Riful may have a plan to defeat Isley/Priscilla using a yoki manipulator, but I don't see Galatea or Clare allying with her in the story. Maybe there is another Claymore yoki manipulator that might help Riful, but Riful gets killed by Alicia/Beth before putting her plan into motion.
Kikaifan
2008-03-14, 08:18
didn't irene say that she was on another continent where the org doesn't exist for a long time after her arm loosing?
IIRC that phrase was used in at least one of the subs for the anime, but in the manga they just say that she was living in a secluded valley.
IIRC that phrase was used in at least one of the subs for the anime, but in the manga they just say that she was living in a secluded valley.
thx for the clarification and sry for the anime only stuff :eyespin:
Negativedark
2008-03-14, 09:28
I have a speculation on what is going to happen soon. Possibly within the next 10-15 chapters (after chapter 78).
Speculation: Alicia/Beth kills Riful
Reason: It was Riful who the organization scouted with Alicia, when Alicia was not yet complete (during the fight between Clare/Galatea/Jean and Duph). Alicia was asked specifically if she could take out Riful at that point. She replied she would do 50% damage to Riful before dying. After that her training was taken up a notch.
This might be the first time we see the true power of Alicia/Beth. I do not see the organization trying Alicia first on Isley, due to Priscilla's power at his side. The safer choice to test out Alicia would be on Riful. The direct scouting report by Alicia on Riful also confirms this suspicion.
Alicia should be near completion if not completed. It was revealed during the battle of Pieta that she was 95% complete. Actually, if Miria read Audrey right, then Alicia is already completed (after 7 years passed). Alicia already took care of the 11 Awakened Beings that were sent by Isley easily. The next test should be Riful.
Riful may have a plan to defeat Isley/Priscilla using a yoki manipulator, but I don't see Galatea or Clare allying with her in the story. Maybe there is another Claymore yoki manipulator that might help Riful, but Riful gets killed by Alicia/Beth before putting her plan into motion.
Interesting, but I dissagree.
The org wasn't scouting Riful, they were just taking advantage of circumstances. They Abyssals don't reveal their power often, and the Org wanted Alicia to see on first hand, in order to gauge the progress they had made with her. If it had been Lucelea or Isley, she'd have been scouting them out. The other reason I doubt it will happen is that the Org will consider it too risky. They want Alicia near HQ so that in case one of the Abyssals moves against them, they have her as a guard. Sending her out to confront Riful is just asking Isley to wipe them out. The Org will keep Alicia close at hand to deal only with immediate threats until they have a backup for her ready.
Defiled one
2008-03-14, 09:41
LMAO Thats assuming I meet her before she died. But now that I think about it Ophelia is such a nut case she probably never thought about any of that kind of company. She had her pretend brother who has been dead for who knows how long. XD I'd rather have a run in with the seven ghosts, they are probably extremly longing for some company. Then again a lot of people probably would.
You probably had more chances with an Youma than with a Claymore :rolleyes: That, and the fact that Priscilla appears to be a Nephilim.:rolleyes: Found the similarities quite shocking and it was by sheer luck. :heh:
You probably had more chances with an Youma than with a Claymore :rolleyes: That, and the fact that Priscilla appears to be a Nephilim.:rolleyes: Found the similarities quite shocking and it was by sheer luck. :heh:
More luck with a yoma, that would be scary. Priscilla is a lot older than she looks so I geuss it wouldn't be so bad.... Unless she awakens.:eek::help::twitch:
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-14, 10:58
I wonder why we've only seen one yoma impersonating a woman, and a claymore at that... ?
I wonder why we've only seen one yoma impersonating a woman, and a claymore at that... ?
That yoma probably was really dumb thinking if it looked like a claymore it wouldn't be attacked by one. Other yoma probably don't do it because they know it won't work. Then again that yoma probably killed that claymore somehow and took her form, because usually a yoma can never kill a claymore , it probably got her in her sleep. Yoma probably never take claymore forms because they know humans would still reject them. Now that I think about it that yoma that took that claymore form probably just wanted Raki for a snack.
Defiled one
2008-03-14, 12:29
I think it wanted too smex him up and then, eat him.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-14, 12:45
call me paranoid, but if it didn't know that, they don't refer to themselves as claymore, then it didn't get the memories of it's victim (though that might be cos they don't eat yoma), it also didn't have an identifying neck piece, so it was just pretending to be a woman/claymore in general, which begs the question where did it get the uniform from? unless they mimic their clothes as well? Makes me paranoid about a whole heap of otherstuff as well... the reason for my theories/speculation.
Defiled one
2008-03-14, 12:52
call me paranoid, but if it didn't know that, they don't refer to themselves as claymore, then it didn't get the memories of it's victim (though that might be cos they don't eat yoma), it also didn't have an identifying neck piece, so it was just pretending to be a woman/claymore in general, which begs the question where did it get the uniform from? unless they mimic their clothes as well? Makes me paranoid about a whole heap of otherstuff as well... the reason for my theories/speculation.
:cool: Ah, finally someone who made the question and now, me, shall explain.
Instead ask yourself this. By whom? You see, the org is not afraid of Youmas and some, even work inside the Org.
I know...it´s a heavy acusation but I have proof. The extra Chapter number 4, where it is explained how Claymores graduate...explains for itself. I need no words:rolleyes:
I think the Org finds yoma and kidnap them for the final graduation.
Defiled one
2008-03-14, 13:05
I think the Org finds yoma and kidnap them for the final graduation.
:rolleyes: Um, I´m getting ideas just thinking about it. Pretty sure Benny Hill Theme would work wonders :p Yesh
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-14, 13:25
Hmmm i don't know i always try to split conspiracy theories with occam's razor, it would be easier to just take the trainees to a place where a yoma is known to be... That would allow a surviving yoma to grab a uniform, but not the pauldrons and armor etc... It could have just found a claymore equipment store, but then that asks the question "would the mib's leave spare equipment hanging around?/why didn't they do their job and clean up afterwards?" If i was more paranoid i'd say someone gave the equipment to the yoma... but then that someone would know that blatantly ain't gonna work on a claymore, but it could work on ignorant peasants like raki...
chibamonster
2008-03-14, 13:27
I am imagining a youma farmer MiB, rounding them up with a lasso like a cowboy when necessary. "Yeehaw!"
Youma do not seem to create clothes when they change form so asking where that youma got the bits of a claymore outfit is a very good question. I do not think we will get any answer beyond the realm of fan fiction though. I do not think the youma killed a claymore itself, but the MiB's have storehouses with clothes and a dead claymore would be easy pickings. It had the body armor too. Maybe it got it from a local cosplay convention :p
Defiled one
2008-03-14, 13:32
Youmas work for the Org. It is true because if I was an Youma, even a kidnapped one, I wouldn´t fight agains´t the claymores, I would run away from the town as fast as I could. Plus, why would they bother telling me that the Claymores were trainees? And the fact of the Youma being at ease with it amazes me...
Youmas work for the Org
chibamonster
2008-03-14, 13:42
Now I am imagining a youma in a business suit typing away on a computer under some buzzing nasty flickering florescent lights trying to put together an end of quarter report for the organization. It hates its life and drinks more coffee than it should.
But I agree. The organization seems fairly friendly with some Youma & AB. I really wonder what information the 6 armed AB had, although I do not think he ever planned on telling anyone. The organization seemed to have some sort of deal with him. He knew the claymores were coming and had a plan on how to ambush them. He could have sensed them, or he could have been told.
Mabye the MiB's manipulate the yoma into thinking they can have some young fresh meet by fighting some kids, then when the yoma gets there it realizes that they aren't normal kids at all, there claymore's in training. Or something like that anyways.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-14, 18:19
Hmmm well the whole yoma working for the org still seems a little stretched, but it did raise a couple of questions in my mind...
Did Rubel actually say "us claymores" with regards to the supernatural not being allowed into rabona or was that clare?
I can't remember that yoma impersonating a claymore actually having a claymore either... which would be a bit of a give away as well, after all it's what defines them, if it had been the uniform of a dead claymore, it would have been found along with the claymore grave marker.
Oh yeah and i've only seen one sword break and that was galks in rabona, whereas the claymore's used against tougher yoma and awakened beings wielded with superhuman strength have been seen variously smashing through floors, ceiling, roofs, stone pillars, cobble pavements, trees, entire buildings etc. All without losing their edge/maintenance as well i might add? No explanation on that yet either.
Oh yeah and i've only seen one sword break and that was galks in rabona, whereas the claymore's used against tougher yoma and awakened beings wielded with superhuman strength have been seen variously smashing through floors, ceiling, roofs, stone pillars, cobble pavements, trees, entire buildings etc. All without losing their edge/maintenance as well i might add? No explanation on that yet either.
You know I don't think anyone has thought of that. I have looked at there swords and the part that looks the weakest is the part where the blade starts close to the gaurd and hilt. If the sword were to break most likley it would be there. But then again with the right technology, a really strong sword can be made. Swords can actually cut through a lot if made right and if handled right, I don't know about stone pillers though but can probably thrust through them though. Swords can cut into pavement but not very easily though. I know this stuff because I have taken up three years of swordmanship, so I know what a sword can do if in the hands of someone that knows how to use it. If you don't its easy to kill yourself, which makes me think, I wonder how many claymore's in training have been killed just from moving there sword the wrong way and chopping there own head off.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-15, 14:44
haha, well that would require some gross misunderstanding in use, the worst i've seen has been a thumb taken off by an iai... any sword is designed to cut through flesh, it's the whole ability to get through wood and stone etc that's a bit odd when you compare it to a regular sword breaking in the same setting. (p.s. they train with smaller swords before the weight of claymores, clare certainly knew how to handle twin long daggers the first time in rabona)
*if* they are something special it would raise the question why provide the decorative but disfuctional armor? *if* you can create an alloy that strong... but it's just a fantasy setting, and probably not much reason for it.
Another thing i don't know if anyone's mentioned, but most of the male ab's have the unawakaned forms of what i presume is veteran warriors. claymores on the other hand stop aging when they reach maturity which means most of the males were already past maturity when they became claymores...?
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-15, 14:45
Oh yeah which reminds me is clare's current clothes, the same as her infiltration garb?
Oh yeah which reminds me is clare's current clothes, the same as her infiltration garb?
No they aren't, her infiltration garb was made out of a different material, which I think looked better on her than what she's wearing right now, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people will disagree with me on that.
Negativedark
2008-03-15, 22:12
Her infiltration garb (Or the little black number as I like to call it) needed to look enough like part of a normal outfit so that if she was searched it wouldn't raise suspicion. Her current outfit is to make her look awesome and match the other ghosts, but with a little uniqueness.
When the org told Clarice she was special, mabye they told her that because she's related to one of the 7 ghosts or someone else from there time and she doesn't know about it. If she is that would put another twist in the manga.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-17, 12:10
Did you just read my theory on page 7? I got some more circumstancial evidence/foreshadowings to back it up
1. Maybe the title in which she appears 'joined by souls' has more than one meaning.
2. You could perceive her attack on agatha as being the result of undue influence (look at her crying saying 'i don't know why i do these things/i want to stay alive')
Did you just read my theory on page 7? I got some more circumstancial evidence/foreshadowings to back it up
1. Maybe the title in which she appears 'joined by souls' has more than one meaning.
2. You could perceive her attack on agatha as being the result of undue influence (look at her crying saying 'i don't know why i do these things/i want to stay alive')
Actually I was reading it a few days ago, but I didn't think that up about Clarice until earlier today.
Anyways, yeah joined by souls could have a few meanings. One that comes to mind is that when Clarice is counting the claymores (gravemarkers) she could be related to one of the dead warriors burried there. Another that comes to mind is that she could be related to one of the ghosts. I think it would be really interesting if she was related to Miria.
Defiled one
2008-03-17, 14:02
Actually I was reading it a few days ago, but I didn't think that up about Clarice until earlier today.
I think it would be really interesting if she was related to Miria.
It would be more interesting if she was related to Clare, or mayble Priscilla :rolleyes:
It would be more interesting if she was related to Clare, or mayble Priscilla :rolleyes:
It would be wierd to me if she was related to Clare, mabye because there names are so close to the same. Lol mabye Clare is her aunt. I don't know what to say about Priscilla though because the timeline between Priscilla and Clarice is really far apart. If she's related to Priscilla mabye she has some sort of power up that can beat her.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-19, 09:06
Not many people read this thread i'm sure, but i did think of something else... there is always an assumption that the org/mib are unified in their actions, if they were involved in internal power plays and politics (being near immortal probably brings this out in people) then it could explain some of the motives. Each of the handlers seem to specifically deal with a single claymore, and represents the orgs interests to every claymore, but say their is a power struggle between two handlers and the claymores become weapons to be manipulated, against the rival handler/claymore. Furthermore if the fortunes of the handlers it tied to the claymores then it's in the interest/prestige of the handler to have a higher ranked claymore, thus encouraging duels which don't seem to automatically confer rank/priviledge.
Allow me to infer...
1. Teresa's handler was pissed that she had 'finally done it' (not the org, just the handler maybe.)
2. Rubel seemed 'happy' to handle clare which can't have been very prestigious #47, and then misleads others about her capability
3. He was waiting to recruit her, and must have waited for her to complete her training as well, (ugly duckling analogy obviously leads to a swan) but why/?
4. He warns her about her limits but says 'alright i'll add you to the hit squad' which is what clare wanted, and she get's an awakaned hunt despite her rank, though it's considered a suicide mission to get rid of undesirable elements.
5. The second hunt was suprisingly lacking in other members, ophelia may be able to solo so why such weak backup? Probably not rubel's idea, and yet he smirks as he tells straight faced facts to the skeptical (inner council?).
6. Galatae's handler is full of himself. #3
7. Raphaela #5 seems to be running around without a handler, but we know rubel spoke to her before the others, i don't know what her sensing range is but she must have been pretty close to clare, during her fight with ophelia, to pick up the isolated irene's wherabouts. (What was she doing there?)
8. Clarice is teemed up with miata because she's too unstable to handle alone... #4 rank but can't be handled?
tenken627
2008-03-19, 13:06
Actually handlers can work with more than one Claymore at the same time. At least I got that impression from Ermita. He is both Galatea's and Miria's handler.
It's clearly evident that Galatea is under Ermita, but you see in the Slasher's Arc that Ermita was the one who led Clare to Miria, Helen, and Deneve. He also says that he'll leave everything in Miria's hands.
Also, I'm not sure, but it seems like Rafaela is under Rubel's command. He was the one who told her about her exile, so I assume that he was her handler at that time. He is the one who brings her back. Rafaela is also with him when he talks to Clare about Pieta. He could be giving both Rafaela and Clare orders around the same time.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-19, 14:02
ha yeah more than likely, but i just can't tell if they are 'regular' handlers as it were, if rubel is handling #5 does that mean he's got a powerful claymore or a disgraced one on his hands? Or does it just mean he can give orders at that particular time? I'm more than willing to bet he wasn't her handler when she was #2. And there's virtually no knowledge on who's handling what in the org, which is what leads me to come up with my speculations. A single handler surely couldn't have much time to spread between 2-3 claymores even if their areas overlap.
But then if that was the case it changes the whole gameplan again. Also how comes raphaela didn't know clare, if they both have the same handler? You'd think at some point they'd have met/figured it out or heard of the other claymore as it were.
Ophelia's handler is also mysteriously absent during her sociopathic stints, unlike teresa's.
Clarice seems to have been given her mission whilst in HQ so we don't know if she even has a handler, or who it is, and yet technically she should have clare's region to patrol? Etc etc.
(The dodgy assumption that rubel is rapheala's full time handler leads to endless questions and speculation that even i can't keep up with)(p.s.your little pic gives me a headache)
tenken627
2008-03-19, 16:44
ha yeah more than likely, but i just can't tell if they are 'regular' handlers as it were, if rubel is handling #5 does that mean he's got a powerful claymore or a disgraced one on his hands? Or does it just mean he can give orders at that particular time? I'm more than willing to bet he wasn't her handler when she was #2. And there's virtually no knowledge on who's handling what in the org, which is what leads me to come up with my speculations. A single handler surely couldn't have much time to spread between 2-3 claymores even if their areas overlap.
But then if that was the case it changes the whole gameplan again. Also how comes raphaela didn't know clare, if they both have the same handler? You'd think at some point they'd have met/figured it out or heard of the other claymore as it were.
Ophelia's handler is also mysteriously absent during her sociopathic stints, unlike teresa's.
Clarice seems to have been given her mission whilst in HQ so we don't know if she even has a handler, or who it is, and yet technically she should have clare's region to patrol? Etc etc.
(The dodgy assumption that rubel is rapheala's full time handler leads to endless questions and speculation that even i can't keep up with)(p.s.your little pic gives me a headache)
Well, we know that Rafaela is a special case. Rubel said that exile is very rare. I'm not sure if Rubel being her handler after her readmission is a temporary thing or not. Maybe they only thought of her as a temporary tool that could be useful for a little while. After gaining information about Luciela, Rafaela possibly never intended to stay within the organization. How she is used is different as well, as she seemed to be the MiB's secret enforcer or executioner. Like Alicia/Beth, the organization kept Rafaela pretty much in the dark from everyone else.
As for handlers "handling" two or more Claymores, I'm not sure how it would be done. I can say that the handlers don't seem to be normal humans either, so they might not travel at "human speed" either. They do show up at unexpected times. It's pretty clear that they may have more than one Claymore under their control.
Clarice does have a handler - Rado. He was the one who ordered Clarice to keep watch over Miata.
Rubel - Clare and Rafaela during Luciela's time (possibly over Rafaela during Clare's time)
Ermita - Galatea and Miria
Orsay - Teresa
Rado - Clarice
"Baldy" (don't know the name) - Alicia and Beth
P.S. - I guess my avatar can be a little distracting, maybe I should take it off?
P.S. - I guess my avatar can be a little distracting, maybe I should take it off?
The first time I saw your avatar I nearly passed out lol. Don't know why.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-19, 18:27
Thanks for the reply, i get to have an actual discussion for once about my theories, i'll try to clarify my position, i don't think the org gives much in the way of multiple claymores to any single handler, it's like too much power/influence (certainly i wouldn't if i was rimuto?). Since we all assume the org speaks with one voice we assume that any handler dealing with general org business speaks with their full authority, yet the whole set up of the council room or whatever it is speaks of a power relationship between the elevated members sitting down with rimuto? at the centre taking reports from subordinate handlers. Rubel we know handle's clare, but we haven't seen him do regular 'handling' for rapheala, though he may have better control or just be working as a contact with regards to rapheala. Ermita, i'm pretty sure just left things with miria and then dissappeared to spy with galatae? So there's no proof that he's mirias handler. Orsay we know dealt with teresa but has not been seen much since. Rado gave his orders to clarice whilst at HQ and clarice called hiim somehing like 'mr rado' so he could just be an authority amongst many at the HQ, or that could just be because clarice's generally meek behaviour. We've seen rubel deal with rapheala after the whole disaster/problem but we don't know who was in control of her training/handling, i'd assume that it's one handler for a soul link pair. Also who's not to say that rado isn't miata's handler who needed to use a spare claymore lying around for an unpleasant task?
(Okay three weird things with rubel in cognates of paradise, something that had nothing to do with him he observed, gave loads of extra info to galatae, and even told her to 'leave' because of her snooping catching up on her. He told raphaela to go act dead, *and* invited her back by supplying info on luciela)
(The thing with your avatar is, it makes me feel like i'm falling towards the west coast of Wales, and it ain't the falling that's making me queasy but the sensation of going to Wales in perpetuity)
tenken627
2008-03-20, 00:10
Thanks for the reply, i get to have an actual discussion for once about my theories, i'll try to clarify my position, i don't think the org gives much in the way of multiple claymores to any single handler, it's like too much power/influence (certainly i wouldn't if i was rimuto?). Since we all assume the org speaks with one voice we assume that any handler dealing with general org business speaks with their full authority, yet the whole set up of the council room or whatever it is speaks of a power relationship between the elevated members sitting down with rimuto? at the centre taking reports from subordinate handlers. Rubel we know handle's clare, but we haven't seen him do regular 'handling' for rapheala, though he may have better control or just be working as a contact with regards to rapheala. Ermita, i'm pretty sure just left things with miria and then dissappeared to spy with galatae? So there's no proof that he's mirias handler. Orsay we know dealt with teresa but has not been seen much since. Rado gave his orders to clarice whilst at HQ and clarice called hiim somehing like 'mr rado' so he could just be an authority amongst many at the HQ, or that could just be because clarice's generally meek behaviour. We've seen rubel deal with rapheala after the whole disaster/problem but we don't know who was in control of her training/handling, i'd assume that it's one handler for a soul link pair. Also who's not to say that rado isn't miata's handler who needed to use a spare claymore lying around for an unpleasant task?
(Okay three weird things with rubel in cognates of paradise, something that had nothing to do with him he observed, gave loads of extra info to galatae, and even told her to 'leave' because of her snooping catching up on her. He told raphaela to go act dead, *and* invited her back by supplying info on luciela)
(The thing with your avatar is, it makes me feel like i'm falling towards the west coast of Wales, and it ain't the falling that's making me queasy but the sensation of going to Wales in perpetuity)
Well, if there was only one handler per Claymore, that would mean that there would have to be 47 handlers. 47 handlers for 47 Claymores. That is a lot of handlers, and we don't see nearly that many handlers throughout the series. We only know of maybe 5 of them. That would also mean that there would be time periods where a handler wouldn't have a Claymore since Claymores seem to die or awaken fairly often.
It seems like whenever there is a shot of the MiB council, the same 5 or so handlers are always there. You don't see any other people around except the council (the ones sitting down). Each meeting has only the same 5 or so handlers I've mentioned, and the same 5 or so council members sitting down in attendance. That's about it. Nowhere is the impression that there are 47 handlers, or even 10.
I think that those 5 handlers are it.
LoL, I guess perpetually going to Wales is a bad thing to many people. I'll take off the avatar. I don't want anyone to faint. :heh:
Yeah, I was thinking 47 handlers might be too much...but still just because we don't see them yet, doesn't mean they aren't there.
However, if there are only a limited number of handlers and MiB...that gives support to the idea they are part of the first experiments, maybe some are from the first generation, while the council precede even them
tenken627
2008-03-20, 02:27
Yeah, I was thinking 47 handlers might be too much...but still just because we don't see them yet, doesn't mean they aren't there.
However, if there are only a limited number of handlers and MiB...that gives support to the idea they are part of the first experiments, maybe some are from the first generation, while the council precede even them
It's possible that there are more handlers, but look at every scene inside the MiB's council room.
Chapter 41 - Rubel reports that Clare has been missing
Chapter 61 - The council talks about Pieta
Chapter 68 - Clarice reports that 7 Claymore swords are missing from the graves
Chapter 73 - The council orders Clarice to kill Galatea with Miata
These are the only chapters I can remember with MiB meetings in it.
Every picture shows only 5 handlers. It's not like there are many people in those meetings anyways, just the council sitting on chairs and the 5 handlers. But, it's always the same people. No picture shows anyone else at those meetings. You would think that if there were more than 5 handlers, you would see at least figures or shadows of them in one of those meetings.
Actually, "Baldy" seems to be Orsay, who just has his hood down.
There is Rado, with something on top of the back half of his head.
Orsay, with his bald head, either hooded or unhooded.
Rubel, with his hat and shades.
Ermita, with his face covered except for the eyes.
And the guy with what seems like leather straps across his face.
Everyone else is sitting on a chair.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-20, 04:06
heh yeah, your probably right, but was one of them the guy from cognates in paradise who complained about losing half the org? And i haven't seen the giant guy who collected the absconding teresa from training (and the one in the extra scene of clares's training also looks familiar, but i can't be sure is a different handler/trainer). It looks like their really isn't that many handlers, but if their is 10, then that's 4.7 claymores per handler, way too many, if you don't count the 5 council members sitting on their ass as handling anything inparticular other than org business that's double to 9.4 claymores per handler. I'm thinking the council in staff/sutafu or whatever don't really move about much cos that breaks down communications. I have to admit i'm not the best with faces, i thought the guy with straps looked like one of the AB's in pieta. But simley could also be right, i guess we won't know either way, until we see more proof. (the org is rather shadowy, and they all wear black, which makes it kindof hard to say.)
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-20, 04:37
Oh and this is another rant very tangentially linked to my theory about clarice in page 7 so it goes in tags.
Whilst re-reading cognates of paradise i noticed the rubel comment about the eye (she was also recuperating which is unneccessary for defensive types), implying rather heavily that rapheala is an offensive type claymore, i can't remember seeing it stated anywhere so please bear with me. In the soul link experiment, rafeala was blamed for having a 'weak heart' and allowing her sister to awaken, but this seems a bit of a flawed if you consider the different types of claymores. The offensive claymores seem to fill out the top ranks quicker, but run the greater risk of awakening because of their mindset. E.g. Of the partially awakened claymores in the slashers arc i'm pretty sure only Deneve is defensive. Ophelia and Jean both offensive types. Given this risk it's a little odd that their was the oversight of using offensive claymores for yoki alignment and awakening (i don't know what luciela was but i'm assuming she was similar enough to her sis to be offensive). Either way rafaela would have had to fight down her own awakening impulse as well as her sisters if they were aligned, (which is probably what caused the disaster and why she is said to have a weak heart, she would've damaged the alignment by trying to save herself.)
Anyhow this leads to two egoless twins being used for the next experiment, and whilst rubel states that they used twins he also says that it is the use of the same yoma that's important. With a poorly developed ego, it would have been easy to create a soul linked pair of defensive claymores (i'm relying on the id complex and helen's interpretation which she shares with deneve). This new pair works better because beth being defensive can pull back alicia... but the problem was training one of them to awake, which could explain the length of their training and the need for a roadblock in the north. The best way i can show the difference is in the yoki manipulation to prevent awakening, clare had a great deal of difficulty in replicating galatea's technique, and not just because it was new to her, but because of the additional mental strain it piled onto clare's offensive psyche.
So to summon up 2 offensive soul linked bad, 2 defensive soul linked good.
1 offensive and 1 defensive soul linked... ?
End theory
Bikerider
2008-03-20, 08:49
From the Special chapter on Miria, Helga and Ophelia, I think Ermita is also Ophelia's handler.
Rubel does seem to be the one to handle special case Claymores, with Raffy and Clare.
tenken627
2008-03-20, 13:40
heh yeah, your probably right, but was one of them the guy from cognates in paradise who complained about losing half the org? And i haven't seen the giant guy who collected the absconding teresa from training (and the one in the extra scene of clares's training also looks familiar, but i can't be sure is a different handler/trainer). It looks like their really isn't that many handlers, but if their is 10, then that's 4.7 claymores per handler, way too many, if you don't count the 5 council members sitting on their ass as handling anything inparticular other than org business that's double to 9.4 claymores per handler. I'm thinking the council in staff/sutafu or whatever don't really move about much cos that breaks down communications. I have to admit i'm not the best with faces, i thought the guy with straps looked like one of the AB's in pieta. But simley could also be right, i guess we won't know either way, until we see more proof. (the org is rather shadowy, and they all wear black, which makes it kindof hard to say.)
I'm not sure who that is. It could be one of the actual council members actually standing up for once. Kind of hard to tell.
The giant guy most likely is one of the Claymore trainers, like the guy with the bandanna that oversaw Clare's final test. Or maybe he just helps trainers. You never see either of them except for around young trainees.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-20, 20:20
Whether the trainers are the same as the Mib's is probably argued elsewhere anyway so i won't push this one further, i can only stretch my speculations and theories so far... :)
I'll happily go with the multiple claymores per handler theory, despite my original speculation, because it allows me to now sit and think about rubel handling rapheala. (I can't shake the feeling that the mib's are gonna strain themselves with too much work though). If rubel put a number #5 behind clare when she was put against ermita's? number #4 you could call that a wise insurance, no one would know she was their, and thus irene exposed herself before rubel's plan could be enacted... maybe.
Say ermita handles' #3, #4 and #6 for example, he's got a problem because #6 is making him look bad, and miraculously survives because of rubel's supposedly weak #47 addition to the suicide team. He can't send in #3 to finish up because they all survived without awakening. So he gets a joint mission where his #4 can remove that particular obstacle, but she awakens and dies, everyone assumes it ain't #47 that did it. Rubel's #5 was in the area, so he/they have got to make sure, so in goes the #3 to do the job, who disobeiently comes back empty handed, having been observed in an excercise by the #1,#2 pair. Now this looks like a problem so Rubel goes to deal with it himself, (he also can't deny that his missing #47 is alive) and voila she's back in the org like a good girl and off to die in pieta with the rest of the troublemakers/expendable fodder. After the north campaign Ermita's lost his troublesome #6 but also his #3 which is a result of rubel's little chat with her. The number #5 completes both her missions during this time and then dissappears and is presumed dead. See written like this it can make someone look incompetent compared to someone else.
Any constructive comments are as always welcome...
Oh yeah and rubel's handled in one generation a yoki perceiver, and a yoki aligner, and got a yoki manipulator to defect, all according to the org are missing/dead... Two out of the three are now in the same area.
Something that occurred to me....did Galatea notice Alicia observing Riful? if not...does that mean Riful is a better sensor than Galatea?
chibamonster
2008-03-20, 21:11
Good question. Riful is super good at sensing youki and even hiding her own. It does not seem like Riful is a youki manipulator but is very gifted at youki sensing. She was able to tell that Priscilla was beyond her power level by just reading her. Isley and Rigard had to lose some limbs to figure it out.
While I think Riful is a very good youki sensor, it is hard to say if she is really better than Galatea for range or reading it. When Riful senses Alicia, Galatea had just been thrown through the ringer with Duff. She had been impaled several times and was barely able to move by the end of the fight. She had really pushed the limit of her youki release as well. A comparison is difficult, but I would say they are both very talented at youki sensing. Neither of them can sense the ghosts.
tenken627
2008-03-20, 21:35
Whether the trainers are the same as the Mib's is probably argued elsewhere anyway so i won't push this one further, i can only stretch my speculations and theories so far... :)
I'll happily go with the multiple claymores per handler theory, despite my original speculation, because it allows me to now sit and think about rubel handling rapheala. (I can't shake the feeling that the mib's are gonna strain themselves with too much work though). If rubel put a number #5 behind clare when she was put against ermita's? number #4 you could call that a wise insurance, no one would know she was their, and thus irene exposed herself before rubel's plan could be enacted... maybe.
Say ermita handles' #3, #4 and #6 for example, he's got a problem because #6 is making him look bad, and miraculously survives because of rubel's supposedly weak #47 addition to the suicide team. He can't send in #3 to finish up because they all survived without awakening. So he gets a joint mission where his #4 can remove that particular obstacle, but she awakens and dies, everyone assumes it ain't #47 that did it. Rubel's #5 was in the area, so he/they have got to make sure, so in goes the #3 to do the job, who disobeiently comes back empty handed, having been observed in an excercise by the #1,#2 pair. Now this looks like a problem so Rubel goes to deal with it himself, (he also can't deny that his missing #47 is alive) and voila she's back in the org like a good girl and off to die in pieta with the rest of the troublemakers/expendable fodder. After the north campaign Ermita's lost his troublesome #6 but also his #3 which is a result of rubel's little chat with her. The number #5 completes both her missions during this time and then dissappears and is presumed dead. See written like this it can make someone look incompetent compared to someone else.
Any constructive comments are as always welcome...
Oh yeah and rubel's handled in one generation a yoki perceiver, and a yoki aligner, and got a yoki manipulator to defect, all according to the org are missing/dead... Two out of the three are now in the same area.
I am aware of your suspicious of an internal power struggle within the organization, and Rubel being a black sheep from your different posts above.
I'm not sure that I am reading this right, but I think you are proposing that Rubel and Ermita are currently locked in, and have been for some time, a rivalry fight with each other and are trying to knock off the other through the usage of their Claymores? Or at least try to weaken the other's status in the eyes of the Council? Am I correct?
I think you are also trying to speculate that the Opehlia + Clare Awakened Being hunt team could have been planned by Ermita, and that his real objective was to wipe out one of Rubel's Claymores. Rubel kept Rafaela close by to make sure this didn't come to pass.
You also think that Rubel deliberately told Galatea everything that he did during Alicia's fight with the 11 ABs. The reason behind that was to cause Galatea to garner more suspicions and defect from the organization, causing Ermita to lose his top prized Claymore.
With the loss of Miria to the Battle in Pieta, Galatea to defection, and Ophelia (who we assume from Extra Scene 2 is under Ermita as well) to death, Ermita has his best warriors wiped out, and could be in a ruinous position in the eyes of the Organization. And much of this was brought about due to Rubel's scheming.
I just want to make sure that I'm on the same track as you. Please let me know which parts are wrong.
As for your theory, it's an interesting speculation, but I disagree with your premise. While I do think that there is some internal forces at odds within the organization, I do not think it is between Rubel and Ermita, and not in this way either.
Still, like I said, it's very interesting. Some nice political intrigue mixed up into an already good story. I don't mind reading more of your theory on this. This could be worthy of a story in itself. Rubel vs Ermita!
BTW, I literally laughed out loud reading the top part of your post. Out of all the posts I read here, I never once saw any type of sympathy for any of the MiBs. That part where you seemed to worry over the MiBs straining from a heavy workload just seemed funny to me. Poor MiBs. :(
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-21, 07:22
yep, spot on... I did say as an example/ and written like this... But that all came from mixing in some stuff from the idea of multiple claymores per political handler. I can do more if you find it interesting, it may even be that orsay (baldie?) deals with #1,#2, and ermita usually the #3,#4,#5 and the next handler and so on. Rubel in contrast is handling covert ops and specialist claymores, clare receives training that deosn't seem suitable to say the likes of claymores like undine/rachel and even deneve. Clarice's idea of inflitration into rabona was a cloak with it's hood up, *whilst* she was on energy suprresents... and her hair colour works in her favour/she didn't need that given her eyes would be normal at the time. Clare by contrast didn't try to hide her face when she walked into the suspicious rabona on her mission. Until clare was capable of cutting down 5 or so yoma at a time rubel's even kept her seperate from other claymores. And miria says something along the lines of against 4/5 she should be defenceless... I'll look into more but it could be clare is a 'special soldier' in a different way.
cheers for the feedback, and i do feel sorry for the mib's if they can't replace internal members, i mean after the luciela, all of their workloads doubled in theory.
If you wan't i can put that in a story pov, though i'm no writer.
Bikerider
2008-03-21, 10:09
I don't see any divisions among the MiBs. They all have their opinions. They express them without hesitation. I see the MiB handlers interact with their Warriors differently because of their own personalities. I see Rubel does have a tendency to follow through on his own intuition where as others don't. That could be part of his own hybridization. From what I see of Clare: she approached Rubel to join. Raffy was given to him after the Lucy crisis. He seems to handle special claymores that need the extra attention. I wonder which of the latest generation warriors he's handling.
He seems to handle special claymores that need the extra attention. I wonder which of the latest generation warriors he's handling.
hmm...maybe Audrey, she must be physically and psychologically traumatized after the...incident with Riful :rolleyes:
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-21, 15:53
Well then maybe it's just rubel's opinion to not tell the truth regarding clare and her escapades, he's even smiling whilst he says baldfaced lies. (poker face?). As far as i'm aware the only two claymores who have done anything actively covert are rapheala and clare/both *probably* handled by rubel. Rubel only smiles when he implies that raki was why clare was chosen for the rabona job, 'they made the best choice for the job' or something, and right after that clare says she's been trained for covert operations, but i don't see deneve blushing like an aristocrat, or undine smiling like a prostitute as it were...
That's not to say they don't all receive such training, just it could imply it, there's so little that's explicitly said in claymore, which is *why* i'm speculating.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-21, 16:27
Okay here's another little spec thingy, if galatae was right then the new eye of the org Lune? was watching the pieta incident (ermita again?) and would have noted that someone went way over their limit and killed an incredibly powerful AB. (galatea thought deneve had awakened and said it out loud, back in the slasher arc), does the org think that one of the claymores awakened...? If i'm right and the org is watching for the supressed clarice/miata/galatae and suprisingly agatha to flare their yoki then die in rabona, then if clare drops her suppression for just one moment someone's gonna throw a fit...
Does anyone have a clue on what could be Ophelia's connection to Priscilla? why did she become such a psychopatch; aside from the hate she bears towards her for eating her brother, she also seems to blame Clare at a certain point in her despair.
She said that if it wasn't for Clare, her brother wouldn't have died. Is that like.., plain dementia caused by her grief or something? Maybe it's similar to Priscilla's state of regressed memories?
I think Ophelia might have suffered from a head trauma and made her go delusional, causing her to see things very differently.
tenken627
2008-03-21, 22:48
Well then maybe it's just rubel's opinion to not tell the truth regarding clare and her escapades, he's even smiling whilst he says baldfaced lies. (poker face?). As far as i'm aware the only two claymores who have done anything actively covert are rapheala and clare/both *probably* handled by rubel. Rubel only smiles when he implies that raki was why clare was chosen for the rabona job, 'they made the best choice for the job' or something, and right after that clare says she's been trained for covert operations, but i don't see deneve blushing like an aristocrat, or undine smiling like a prostitute as it were...
That's not to say they don't all receive such training, just it could imply it, there's so little that's explicitly said in claymore, which is *why* i'm speculating.
Haha, I'm laughing at the thought of Undine trying to smile like a prostitute. But, who knows. Some men like women with biceps bigger than their heads.
My ex-roommate thought that lady who played Xena the Warrior Princess was hot.
Edit: Actually looking at pics now of her, she doesn't seem as muscular as I thought she was. Still kind of looks manly though.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-22, 08:25
Well i only used undine and deneve as an example because i didn't know the name of the mannish one in clare's graduation class, and the thought of using the new generations rachel, made me cringe. The actor who played Xena was lucy lawless, and i gather apart from some obvious reasons for her 'butchness' that most people were flattered by the breastplate/armor that would have any competent archer/crossbowmen smiling with glee, specifcally because it lacked any protection for the heart/chest.
As to my previous little spec, maybe rubel's gathering the yoki users for a reason. If clarice holds true to my opinion then they've just gained not only a mentor for a soul link, but a disruptor and shield against outside manipulation (miata is there to prevent physical tampering with her mama). Now they just need to find rapheala to teach proper alignment and rubel's plan will be complete.
I highly dought Rafaela would go back to train proper yoki alignment, she would probably die rather than show people how to awaken and come back.
Haha, I'm laughing at the thought of Undine trying to smile like a prostitute. But, who knows. Some men like women with biceps bigger than their heads.
My ex-roommate thought that lady who played Xena the Warrior Princess was hot.
Edit: Actually looking at pics now of her, she doesn't seem as muscular as I thought she was. Still kind of looks manly though.
you should see the actor who plays xena, lucy lawless, in Battlestar galactica....she is amazingly hot there :)
as for ophelia, she was losing her mind, and becoming delusional when she blamed clare....maybe she thought Clare was Priscilla, seeing the person who killed her brother in front of her even if Priscilla wasn't there
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-22, 15:42
I always thought the sidekick in xena was much more attractive...?
Anyhoo i can get away with speculating to my hearts content can't i? I'll base my rapheala theory on the fact that we don't know anything about her motivations except she 'blamed' herself for her sisters death. Rubel shook her hand when he took her back (regarding the luciela info) so we don't know what the exact nature of the deal she had with him was. She may be opposed to the org and out for revenge as well? (if she's alive... who knows?). If she wanted to get rid of the soul link then she *must* know about alicia and beth and be planning something, i can't read anything deeper into her one meeting with clare, but who knows if we'll get to see that differently in the future.
we have like....10 days till the next chapter? geez...
still, I'm sure all of us want to see Clare's awakened form, and her coming back without losing her mind. Her partially awakened form was so amazing, I can't imagine how powerful her fully awakened form might be. Soul link seems to be the answer to our prayers, but the hitch is the yoki source must be from the same yoma...I think it would be cool if Clarice would have been hybridized with Teresa's remains as well, which is why there is so much focus on her character. Then one day, she soul links with Clare to pwn all challengers. I can't imagine such a weak character playing such a huge part, without a future powerup coming somehow. Maybe Clarice freaks out seeing the ghosts, partially awakens and feels a kinship with Clare seeing as how they have the same power within them. Of course...Clare will always be more powerful than Clarice, Clare got the head, clarice would have the torso :)
chibamonster
2008-03-23, 16:01
@Simley: Nice post :D. I agree that Clarice must have some sort of personal importance to the story. A part of me thinks she is not really a failed experiment. If she remains this weak then I will just have to think of her and Miata as one character. Together they have quite a handle on power and Clarice does think things through even if she is inexperienced.
As for a soul link, I do not think a partially awakened claymore would need as much help as Alicia. Clare can already do the impossible by crossing her limit and coming back. She did it all the time. Jean was certainly no youki manipulator when she brought Clare back. Clare actually had to do the work of synchronizing to Jean's youki. A full and perfect soul link might not be necessary for Clare. Jean had a completely awakened form that she restrained from moving with her human mind. If a youki manipulator could help maintain someones human mind then complete merging of souls might not be necessary.
But either way, I think the soul link will be important in the future for the ghosts. Galatea and Raphaela seem like the most likely candidates for soul linking partners. I want to see Clare's awakened form the most. I also want to see Miria's.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-23, 16:26
Hmm clare' carried teresa head, don't mean it was used though... I should probably have mentioned that clarice did display some brilliance against agatha, i'm not sure if we can read into it, but she displayed a burst of speed, agility and strength (she was fast enough, to jump up 3 buildings and run/charge/jump agatha from what could be consiedered a rapid retreat. She was at least strong enough to damage agatha, *and* attacked the weak spot on agatha 'her hair' before any of the ghosts or galatae had even mentioned it. I'm wondering if she did all that without releasing yoki, i could be wrong, it's something i only just noticed, but has anyone seen clarice actually with the yoki/veins on her head? If i was trying to back up my previous posts i'd say that the reason clarice is #47 ain't cos she's useless, but because she don't know how to use her yoki. (ala my defensive/offensive claymore for soul link theory). A little burst of yoki and she should have had the strength to push her sword through the 2 obstacles that we've seen her get it previously stuck in. (once a tree, and another time a building). I'd assume that the soul link could only occur once clarice shows her yoki... Clare, Galatea and Tabitha should see the similarities if this is the case.
If i was trying to back up my previous posts i'd say that the reason clarice is #47 ain't cos she's useless, but because she don't know how to use her yoki. (ala my defensive/offensive claymore for soul link theory). A little burst of yoki and she should have had the strength to push her sword through the 2 obstacles that we've seen her get it previously stuck in. (once a tree, and another time a building). I'd assume that the soul link could only occur once clarice shows her yoki... Clare, Galatea and Tabitha should see the similarities if this is the case.
Kinda reminds me of Clare before clare became partially awakened...man...clare was weeeak! lol. As for the burst of yoki, she was on energy suppressants at the time when her sword got stuck in the tree and the building. And she got knocked out so fast in the North too. It makes sense she can't battle people way above her power level. I wouldn't expect Pre-Rabona Clare to match up against anyone strong and come out alive.
@ chiba: I've been thinking so much about soul link lately, but what if the series goes in a completely different way...and we never see Clare's fully awakened form! I would cry so much :) lol
Valerian Mengsk
2008-03-23, 17:42
Eh, we'll see it one day I'm sure, but I'm afraid that shortly afterward we will see a main character die as a result of that form. Just a feeling I have, but it seems like Clare pays a heavy cost every time she levels up.
As for theory Ermita vs. Rubel theory, I like it! But I doubt Ermita would so flagrantly use his charges for his own personal gain, Rubel on the other hand.....
But what if Ermita has been acting with the backing of the council and Rubel is just impairing his efforts.
As for why Rubel wants to weaken the Org. I have no clue, maybe that is not his intention but that does seem to be the most likely reason for his actions thus far.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-23, 18:19
Thanks guys i appreciate the feedback... :), and i forgot to say thanks to tenken for getting rid of that avatar, i feel like i'm on solid ground and it, ain't cardiff...
Ermita vs Rubel, is just an idea based on the fact that if your unaging/immortal and have an endless supply of replaceable pawns, then the only thing of value is the respect of your peers within the org, for they are the only worthy adversaries. You have to do your job, sure but 'how' you do it is what makes the time go by... like speculating on a manga that comes out once a month...
I just had to say the thing with clarice, because i noticed clarice shout to miata, 'release your yoki' during the fight with agatha/galatea (which means she was actively suppressing), *and* energy suppressents are only supposed to get you close to your target, clare had no intention of fighting the yoma in rabona whilst supressed, and clarice and miata would also have orders to drop the pills once they had galatea in sight, otherwise they'd be fighting at a 'huge' disadvantage. Miata also used her yoki to heal her severed hands back on to her arms, which means that clarice should also have access to her's yet we don't see any sign of it...
As a general rule of thumb it seems their is an unmentioned difference between defensive and offensive claymores. Offensive claymores rely on significant yoki manipulation first and 'then' set about improving themselves provided they haven't awakened (yoma half). Defensive claymores improve themselves first (human half) and then set about using yoki manipulation. As an example Clare and Ophelia were both using Yoki boosts 'before' techniques such as quicksword and rippling sword. The only powerful defensive claymores we know of early on is galatea, who doesn't like using her yoki but relies on subtle perception/manipulation first, and fighting with her base strength. All the single digits are pretty much offensive claymores whereas the powerful defensive claymores fill out the teen rankings. Galatea's job as the eye no doubt boosted her EXP dramatically, she get's to see so much. But for the others they have to stay alive long enough to compete with the Offensive types. And the org don't take kindly to any claymore living long enough for that.
Galatea #3 Defensive
Ophelia #4 Offensive
Rapheala #5 Offensive
Miria #6 Offensive?
Eva #7 Unknown
Flora #8 Offensive
Jean #9 Offensive
Undine #11 Defensive
Veronica #13 Defensive
Cynthia #14 Defensive
Deneve #15 Defensive
Eliza #17 Unknown
Lily #18 Unkonwn
Hmm clare' carried teresa head, don't mean it was used though... I should probably have mentioned that clarice did display some brilliance against agatha, i'm not sure if we can read into it, but she displayed a burst of speed, agility and strength (she was fast enough, to jump up 3 buildings and run/charge/jump agatha from what could be consiedered a rapid retreat. She was at least strong enough to damage agatha, *and* attacked the weak spot on agatha 'her hair' before any of the ghosts or galatae had even mentioned it
yeah I don't think clarice has used her yoki yet. From appearances, her current yoki release is probably very weak. I think jumping up buildings is pretty easy for them without using youki at all, and Agatha's body is pretty weak, even humans were able to cut them. As for cutting the weak spot, I think it was pure luck on her part. Galatea did mention earlier "not that part!" or something like that.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-25, 18:58
Hmm i'm glad you mentioned that because, it didn't look like clarice was very good at jumping high, she even had cid's hand getting up to the roof of a small building, which miata easily did on her own, then later still with no sign of a yoki release she jumped 3 rooftops consecutively at an amazing speed, agatha didn't notice this till the last moment and barely dodged the attack. I agree the hair thing was mentioned though, so she remembered that at least. I just can't tell if she has a yoki release problem. I'd say remember clare's yoki release is weak, but has a higher potential, which she's started to fill. If the reason clarice is an incomplete hybrid is the same as clare's we may find out in a few days.
I think the organization just doesn't want Clarice around anymore. I mean like they probably thought Miata was going to kill her. Then they send her and Miata to kill Galatea when an awakened number 2 just happens to show up, and I almost forgot about when she was sent up north to kill awakened beings with number nine's team. If you ask me those are suicide missions.
Valerian Mengsk
2008-03-25, 22:19
This is off topic, but still pertains to the thread.
This new generation has shown itself to be very...how should I put it: unprofessional, untested, reckless, arrogant, and inexperienced. Of course, this has been mentioned before in the past and if you look at the facts and extrapolate a little we can build a pretty clear picture as to why.
I doubt few if any of the soldiers who were operating 7 years ago are still alive, other than those we know of (ya know: Alicia, Beth, The ghost 7, Galatea, and probably Raphaela). And those currently in the top 5 spots have probably been there for only a year or two. This is of course due to attrition.
Within the last 7 years the org. has shifted its stance from politely ignoring ABs to actively hunting them down. AB hunts always leave open the possibility for heavy casualties and sending newly graduated soldiers after them seems like a very Darwinian process that kills far more soldiers then in the past. In addition, ABs have responded to this threat by working together as well, leaving increasing the likelihood of 100% casualty missions.
Just look at the latest chapters, 3 separate groups of soldiers (9 in total) were almost annihilated over the course of a couple of months:confused:.(not so sure on the time that has passed)
That is 20% of the orgs available fighting force! And this foes not include other instances where AB hunts were wiped out in the same period of time. Now extrapolate that number over the past 7 years, imagine how many soldiers have bit the dust do to these new tactics. It is very likely that soldiers like Audrey and Rachel became single digits only recently, do to the high exchange rate of single digits do to death. Especially since a single digit must be in every AB hunt in order to ensure even the slightest likelihood of success (exposing them to more danger and a higher chance of being killed as well).
So it is really no surprise that the new generation seems weaker in some people's eyes, because it really does not possess the same back-bone and experience of previous generations.
On the flip side, the Darwinian methods used by the org. is probably very effective at creating a dedicated group of AB exterminators. Anyway, I doubt the org. cares that much about their lower class soldiers ever since they managed to complete Alicia and Beth.
Feel free to nitpick, I'm more than ready to argue my point....and uhmm listen to yours of course ;).
chibamonster
2008-03-25, 22:37
I'd say it probably was a faster turn over when you put it that way, although I am not sure how long a claymores normal battle lifespan actually is. Obviously not long enough for Clare to realize that Claymores do not age until she met Irene :D. These Claymores might be living longer for all we know. Without a time line or dates it is really hard to tell how long ago anything happened. Teresa was warrior number 182 of the 77th generation, but there could be many many more members to any single generation for all we know. With only 47 slots available that is almost 4 complete cycles through just to get to Teresa's number, and there could be more. Very ambiguous at just how many die and how long it takes. Are trainees included in that number? We do not know that either.
Some warriors are more useful, capable or battle smart and live much longer, some probably die much faster. We know there was a 7 year time skip, but we do not know how long ago Priscilla awakened, how long ago Luciella awakened, any of the events in between or how many total warriors there are for any generation. Claymores do not age and MIB do not seem to be human either so time is very ambiguous. It could be months, years decades... we just do not know. That is my biggest difficulty with looking at time and dates in claymore. I want to measure them by human standards, but they are not just humans anymore.
Valerian Mengsk
2008-03-25, 22:49
I'm just saying that when you make it a point to hunt done ABs you are in for a world of hurt, so this generation may have gone through its "cycles" of recruits far faster than they had in the past. At least most of them don't have worry about a slow awakening, seeing as they will be hard pressed to live that long.
On the other hand, do you think the org has experienced a noticeable rise in soldiers awakening? Or more instances of partially-awakened soldiers? Because we have been shown repeatedly that newer/ less experienced soldiers are far more likely to awaken when placed in extreme situations, such as say AB hunts.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-26, 09:11
You may very well be onto something there, but then the ability to only 'partially awaken' may be a requirement of some experience, which the present generation may not be getting, instead heading mostly for the full awakening and black card problem straight away. We don't even know what generation Agatha (former 2) came from, she can't have been hiding in rabona long, cos cid and galk said it was a recent thing, i'm sure. Miria and Jean had the experience, and Deneve and Helen seem to have found it whilst searching for their 'limit' which is something attributable more to the single digits and their control of said yoki releases, clare by comparison to the other three is a noob, allow me to elaborate...
she pulled through the first time seemingly because of raki, (maybe a bit of alignment/suppresion), in rabona.
The second time she did it for a short burst (which got ophelias attention)
The third time she had a problem with her new arm, being different from the rest of her yoki, and had to have galatea mimic deneve's trick, to aid her.
The fourth time galatea knocked her head into a floor, to stop her beserking
The fifth time she took it in stride along with deneve
The sixth time i count she used a short burst against flora
And the seventh and final time she managed sustained limb awakening probably because of her mastery of ilena's 'evil technique'/jeans willpower example/and her own experience, in the end though she had to align with jean which killed off what life jean had left.
Once clare had experience she could run over her limit, with better control for short periods of time. Just as a single digit claymore can release the exact 80% or so they can control. But then that was why rubel put her on the suicide squad, she certainly wasn't getting it with the other claymores she was supposed to do normal hunts with.
Valerian Mengsk
2008-03-26, 12:45
That is an interesting suggestion, sleepy. The idea that Rubel purposely assigned Clare to Miria's squad in order her for Clare to contact other partially awakened and develop more control and skill as a result.
That would suggest that Rubel expected the squad to triumph while the rest of the org. did not. But this is in character for Rubel, seeing as he seems to know and understand more then his fellow MiB comrades.
Perhaps Rubel believes Clare has the potential to equal or exceed the power of Alicia and Beth, and is willing to place her in extreme situations and even loss his control over her in order to allow that potential to come to fruition.
Any ideas?
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-26, 13:42
Hmm well i have to thankyou for bouncing the idea off of in the first place, rubel definately doesn't place faith in the org's little plans and knows how misleading claymores are. Especially the ones he handles. We can see his thoughts regarding miria, not lying down and dying in the north. Which means he's/known suspected that some survived. Given that the org had a procedure of counting the corpses rather than swords proposed, you'd have to think rubel actually went their himself and didn't bother telling anyone what he found/suspected/knew. This of course leads to someone quashing the idea of sending for lune (at least infront of clarice). And miraculously clarice is immediately teamed up with miata and sent off in search of the missing galatea. Using the supressed 'quick perception' and a vague notion of unmentioned clues/search area, given that she's looking for a supressed claymore, you'd have to wonder if galatea is really the goal. (the org definately knows about the clare/rabona/galatea connection)
On the subject of intentions rubel stated something along the lines of 'you always do things the hardway' and 'or was you hoping for a voracious eater' 'okay i'll add you to the hitsquad'. Knowing that clare has pre-emptive perception gives her a significantly good chance against AB's, and voila the number #6 a very worthy leader doesn't die on a 'suicide mission'.
I don't think rubel wanted the whole ophelia thing though, unless, he had rapheala in the area, or used his 'intuition' to know about the proximity of irene. Clare can run free because like rapheala she'll always come back given the right motivation/knowledge. (priscilla/luciela).
Of course as always it's just my speculations, of which theyr'e are plenty.
Awakened
2008-03-27, 13:39
I never thought of Rubel as been a good guy in the Org, but he might be. He give the Claymores information that they don't need to know, and he keeps some information from the Org. He even suggest that the Org not go after the G7.
I never thought of Rubel as been a good guy in the Org, but he might be. He give the Claymores information that they don't need to know, and he keeps some information from the Org. He even suggest that the Org not go after the G7.
Mabye Rubal will leave the org during the org's time of need. In other words when the org is being destroyed.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-27, 15:14
Hmm well rather than rile people on the 78 discussion thread, i'll add another hint regarding clarice.
Clarice suprisingly didn't know she was a failure, when she first appears, her response to nina's assumption is a bit of a question, which implies that she hasn't had much contact with the rank and file, and that someone's telling her otherwise, she even asks for name and numbers which shows she doesn't see herself as much different. (All this despite having different hair colour, and getting through training without realising how others are going to react)
I don't see the org being destroyed anytime soon, not until their has been alot more contact between rebels and org claymores.
Oh and i'll write two more things of interest
Miria doesn't/didn't know clare offed Ophelia, she believes numbers #1-5 were safe at org HQ during the north campaign. And clare won't say cos she would have to admit more regarding her arm/ilena/teresa.
Audrey wouldn't mention the names and numbers of the top single digits, and miria was trying to flatter her by saying number #3 assuming Alicia and Beth were still number #1 and #2, respectively, but audrey doesn't say anything despite, being asked if Alicia was complete, she only says she's number #3 with regards to galatea's spot. (I mean they already know why hide it?).
Its like I said before Clarice was probably told she was special just to get her hopes up so she would never feel low about herself if any other warrior says something mean to her.
How can you be sure Miria doesn't know Clare killed Ophelia, I think Clare might have told Miria almost everything about her past, and about how she got her arm. I think all the ghosts got to know each other when they were together for 7 years, besides 7 years is a pretty long time to get to know people.
Anyways does anyone else think Miria might die for Clare and Deneve might die for Helen and the rest of the ghosts will live on? Because it looks like a big possibility.
Awakened
2008-03-27, 20:20
Anyways does anyone else think Miria might die for Clare and Deneve might die for Helen and the rest of the ghosts will live on? Because it looks like a big possibility.
I was thinking about with one of the G7 might die, I think the Fab4 are safe for know.
After reading Angel desention, it looks like Yagi have more than one antagonist in his stories. I would say Clare and Miria are the two so far. It looks like Clarice might be the next one, she got more page time (pages focuse just on her), than some of the fab4. Miria only got a flash back.
Miria would be in danger of dying if Clarice become one of the main antagonist in the story.
Miria might be safe, because she has her hunique ability (phantom), but if it can be passed on, we might have to cry for her.
Yagi might have a daughter and go inspied by her to make Clarise. If that is true, Clarise might be a major player. She will need lots of power-ups, if she follows in Clare's foot steps Miria and Deven might be in danger. Clarice can also remain a puppet master.
chibamonster
2008-03-27, 20:55
I am hoping we will learn a bit about Clarice this next chapter. I think the organization might have been serious when they told her that she was "special". Why would they want to boost their warriors self image? No real reason I can think of. I am really anxious to see where her loyalties lie and what she will do.
As for members of the fab 4 dying I see it as a definite possibility, although I do not want to lose them. Angel Densetsu was interesting to me because of the combination of characters that repeated back and forth throughout the series. Claymore has a similar character based plot with the addition that characters die and will not come back.
I am hoping we will learn a bit about Clarice this next chapter. I think the organization might have been serious when they told her that she was "special". Why would they want to boost their warriors self image? No real reason I can think of. I am really anxious to see where her loyalties lie and what she will do.
As for members of the fab 4 dying I see it as a definite possibility, although I do not want to lose them. Angel Densetsu was interesting to me because of the combination of characters that repeated back and forth throughout the series. Claymore has a similar character based plot with the addition that characters die and will not come back.
Yeah, but the thing is, with a special claymore, it seemed like lots of other claymore's knew about Clare's unique situation. Well in the training camp anyways. So maybe in Clarice's training camp, there were other trainees who challenged lil ole clarice just like they challanged Clare. Of course, somehow Clarice survived and they didn't, so nobody else but the MiB know about her special circumstances.
Angel Densetsu was such an awesome manga, I was cracking up so often, it's been a long time since a manga has had me laughing so much in a long time, I was surprised when I found it it was by the same author who did Claymore.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-28, 04:34
That's along the line i was thinking of, but then i was wondering why the hell the other trainees 'wouldn't' point that out constantly, unless they we're told otherwise. Just weird inferences, i'd get more info if it was rubel commenting on the situation.
P.s. I was looking for rubel information, when i noticed that the stuff he says to clare before she fights ophelia pretty much describes 'ophelia' and maybe not the AB she was supposed to hunt. He even throws in an apology about her workload.
Bikerider
2008-03-28, 08:27
I'm thinking that Raffy had a hit list of claymore deserters. When she comes across them, she does her dirty deed.
With this idea, I think Raffy was in the same area as Clare to watch out for her and possibly deal with Ophelia if she killed Clare and Raki.
I'm thinking that Raffy had a hit list of claymore deserters. When she comes across them, she does her dirty deed.
With this idea, I think Raffy was in the same area as Clare to watch out for her and possibly deal with Ophelia if she killed Clare and Raki.
I have never really thought about that before, it makes sence that Raphaela could have been in the area to watch over Clare and Raki just in case Ophelia killed them, and Raphaela could have followed Clare to where Irene was then she could have noticed Irene using her yoki when she got close and probably had to check her hit list to make sure it was Irene so she could kill her.
Negativedark
2008-03-28, 22:17
If we're lucky we might get spoilers this weekend. Let's see if we get any amusing fake ones. And no, I am not going to, nor am I endorsing the posting of fake ones for april fools. I plan on working my mischivousness off in the fanfiction thread.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-29, 18:55
The whole ophelia and clare AB hunt smells of some inhouse cleaning, the more i think about it, (the org must have been suspicious of her) they only gotta catch ophelia killing a fellow claymore or a human (raki) and they can set about getting rid of the psycho #4, rafeala usually does those sort of jobs and she was damn close to the fight. Clare is also handled by rubel, and was just the sort of person to p'ss ophelia off, (partially awakened). She may even have stood a chance against ophelia "if" ophelia didn't use rippling sword, which apparently no one living knew about.
Also i'm wondering about clarice's hair again... Ophelia and Irene have very white hair compared to other claymores, and pointy ears. This may be because they were already blonde, or because they were both powerful offensive yoki users. Of the powerful offensive yoki users we have seen they certainly stand out...
Teresa... died but was uber powerful didn't like to use more than 10% (suppressed/not used)
Priscilla... noob/supressed yoki
*Irene... quicksword/flashsword... 'evil technique/essentially allowing one arm to awaken'
Noel... died before more info (agility user)
Sophia... died before more info (strength user)
Galatea... defensive and usually supressed because of aesthetic choice
*Ophelia... rippling sword/flexible body but used yoki like mad, clare was able to fight her for a time by reading it
Rapheala... suppressed/unreleased yoki
Miria... phantom technique (speed user) replaced by yoki suppresion and new mirage/phantom
Eva... died before more info
Flora... windcutter technique is without yoki manipulation
Jean... drill technique
New generation are all noobs, but audrey looks kindof like she might fit the bill.
Makes me wonder if clarice really can release her yoki, might need a helping hand to get over some form of mental block. Could be a shock for others when she does... I think she even has the same hair colour clare originally had.
Makes me wonder if clarice really can release her yoki, might need a helping hand to get over some form of mental block. Could be a shock for others when she does... I think she even has the same hair colour clare originally had.
are you suggesting clarice might very well be a yoki monster? like priscilla? priscilla tried so hard to supress her yoki...
Bikerider
2008-03-30, 05:20
I'm speculating that Clarice is another attempt at the claymore / claymore hybridisation that Clare is. I speculate they used Alicia or Beth's flesh. They didn't stop the sister exeperiment when Lucy awakened. Why stop with Clare in that experiment.
Because not only was it a failure but they weren't even the ones who initiated the so called experiment, it was Clare. Seems to me more of a "why not, let's see what happens" type of experiment.
With Luciela, they saw her power, they saw Rafaela keep her in control, until that day, so they knew it could give results if they managed to keep the control intact. With Clare, what did they see? a total failure, with power barely above #6 even when awakening and dying (in Pieta), not worth keeping like #3 Galatea, and not even considered to be a threat to a lone #5 even with the hand of a #9. Why would they want to repeat a failure like that when they have successful experimental subjects with abyssal powers with another method? Just so they get weak, more human girls that betray them the first time they feel the pang of shota complex?
though, it would explain why Clarice got paired with miata, the MiB obviously thought that if Clare was shota, there might be a chance a loli might work too.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-30, 08:24
Nothing so complex, clare's yoki release is different from normal claymores, and she has better mental control, despite being a beserker. They just don't know how powerful she was, cos rubel kept it quiet (miria felt it despite clare having the weakest yoki back in the slashers). Better to have a control sample to compare with, with a free pass through graduation et al.
How would they know? Do they have a control-meter somewhere? If you are talking of nearly awekening several times, during the course of a normal Claymore lifespan, this sounds to me more proof of instability, since, you know, other claymores manage to live as long without flipping and nearly awakening at every turn.
beside, Clare yoki release different from normal Claymores? Where did you get that? As far as I recall, each time she had her yoki measured there was nothing out of the ordinary beside that she was weak. Miria's reaction was a reaction to Clare's confidence and trying to read her Yoki flows, she says it in Slashers.
I doubt Rubul knows anything like that anyway, I don't suscribe to the MiB=teleporting, sensor battery supermen theory.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-30, 09:07
LOL... teleporting supermen.
It's not that she nearly awakened several times, but that she's pulled back so many times. (glass half full/glass half empty) if it weren't for the fact that she beserks, they could put that control to better use.
I'm not sure what miria said exactly but it was something like 'it felt like the strongest was before me'
The yoma in the slashers arc said i can't tell if your weak or strong.
The next competent person to meet her was ophelia, and she said a whole bunch of stuff between your'e week/your'e quite strong
Irene, thought she had excellent mental control which is why she taught her quicksword at first.
Riful said something like 'so strength and speed are greatly increased if you go over your limit willingly as opposed to accidently'
Rigardo - "superb"
Miata - there are two with a smell of power.
You don't get that many comments from being an averedge claymore, with a weak yoki signature. Clare was also the one that asked about yoki quality to miria. Yoki measurements are typically quantity based.
you make a good and interesting observation there and one i'm rather surprised others here haven't noticed before including myself considering anylasis is what i used to do for a living. I guess we will discover more as Yagi unfolds his story for us in chapters to come but i would very much be willing to bet that there is a LOT more to clair than meets the eyes as we have already began to see and guess ourselves.
Goes back to what I was saying: how would they know?:It's not that she nearly awakened several times, but that she's pulled back so many times.So many times? She did it three times. (or four, five times, maybe if you count Ophelia and the Pieta scout). Of these, the first the org didn't witness, the second they didn't even know of Ophelia awakening and getting killed, for the third the comeback was due to Galatea's Yoki manipulation which was obviously witnessed by Alicia, the third and fourth she "dies" soon after, making it impossible for a watcher who doesn't know her to name who awakened (or even if it was a Claymore who awakened, maybe), especially as the battle with AB raged. (I seem to recall that you use the argument that big battles make it difficult to pick up details, to justify Ghosts & Galatea not picking up that hypothetical pursuing team with 2 abyssals and on eye)
In comparison, Deneve Half-awakened three times, witnesses saw her do it as many time as Clare did, and I don't see people praising her control and thinking there would be half-deneve hybrids running around.
I'm not sure what miria said exactly but it was something like 'it felt like the strongest was before me'Scene 25, The slashers part 1. It was a hunch thus not based on Yoki. Mostly based on posturing, confidence and attitude (possibly due to sensing yoki reading), that's why she wanted to verify it after and was sorely disappointed. Unlikely to have told it to the org anyway.
The yoma in the slashers arc said i can't tell if your weak or strong.Practical comment, he senses weak yoki, when he hits her she goes flying, but she gives him trouble with her yoki reading dodging. Unlikely to have said it to the org, anyway, considering that he died.
The next competent person to meet her was ophelia, and she said a whole bunch of stuff between your'e week/your'e quite strongI've been rereading the chapters and she never says Clare is strong, the one who says that is the female AB after Clare dodges her attack. Unlikely to relay that to the org, considering both ehr and Ophelia die shortly after.
What Ophelia does say that is interesting, though, is that Clare has a the smell of an AB. That's probably how the "slashers" were singled out to be killed, rather than a mysterious watcher witnessing all their awakenings.
Irene, thought she had excellent mental control which is why she taught her quicksword at first.Yes, but no, she goes back on this in the next line saying that Clare merely appears to be calm but inside she's unstable and not suited to the quicksword. Judgement based on appearance, not validated by test, and unlikely to have been relayed to the org considering that Irene dies shortly after.
Riful said something like 'so strength and speed are greatly increased if you go over your limit willingly as opposed to accidently'Which is totally generic and something the org knew already. They are making Alicia.
Rigardo - "superb"the org - "they all died in the north". I didn't see a org reporter near rigaldo to record his last words.
Miata - there are two with a smell of power.Irrelevant, Clarice is standing next to her, so the strength of post 7 years Clare has nothing to do with it.
You don't get that many comments from being an averedge claymore, with a weak yoki signature. Actually, you do. All the Yomas who talk comment on weak Yoki, Miria, Helen and Deneve do, the first AB does, Galatea does, Rubul says she sucks, Ophelia does nothing but repeat she is weak before slicing her to bits, Riful says she is pathetic (before technique offsets her weakness), Flora says she is weak before forcing Clare to use quicksword, Rigaldo singles out the 5 captains, not Clare, then totally disregards Clare as a weak annoyance, "flies" I think he says.
Of course, considering Ophelia, Priscilla and Miata's remarks, it does seems like there is some kind of "smell/light" that would be different from yoki to tell the strength of a warrior. Maybe it's the potential AB strength, or whatever.
I'm not contesting that Clare is strong, I'm contesting that the org sees her as strong or stable enough to warrant research, when other Claymores are stronger than her, more loyal, more stable anyway, no matter what her achievements in killing yomas are.
chibamonster
2008-03-30, 13:55
I agree with Flar. Clare is incredibly weak struggling against normal youma until she gets her extreme youki reading skills after Rabona. Then her youki reading allows her to not get hit for the most part but she still lacks offensive power until she gets Irene's arm. Riful praises Irene's arm quite a bit too.
And it does make sense to me that some people would sense strength some in Clare because she has Teresa in her. Irene was able to sense it and it is what brought her out of isolation back into battle. When it comes down to it, we know that Clare has more potential than others, especially with her half awakened berserk that tore Rigard apart. Clare does get very strong over her limit. But for the most part she has to rely on Irene's arm to do any damage.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-30, 14:15
Shall we duel oh nemesis of mine...? And ask others who makes the most sense.
Clares' broke her limit 7 times by my count compared to deneve's shown 2. (though it is common knowledge that she and miria have gone far into their limits)
The first in rabona had witnesses i don't think raki ,cid, galk or others nearby spoke of it though it is possible others did and so it became knowledge. It is implied that from this one instance the org knew and sent her on the slashers hunt. There certainly was alot of people around before she ran into the mummy/baptism room.
She broke her limit infront of ophelia, and there is some speculation that rapheala was watching that little fight in order for her to be in range to find out about the isolated irene.
She broke her limit not once but twice infront of galatea during the endless gravestones, and alicia was known to be scanning riful at that time.
She broke her limit against the yoki manipulator along with deneve, and then in a duel with flora, and again by doing a partial limb awakening that's three times in pieta, which it is again heavily implied was being observed by lune, with a rapheala posted nearby to enact purges on anyone attempting to flee.
Of course miria was let down in the fight, for clare it must have been like fighting blind to ignore what she sees to such an extent, in favour or yoki sensing (probably her first chance to do it against another claymore), but notice helen and deneve shut their traps after seeing her fight on par with miria. And galatea was watching that whole little sequence and so reports what she sees.
Indeed, but as i said galatea was watching that little fight, and the anger of that AB was that even when he hit clare, she got back up again, unlike helen and deneve who were down and waiting to die.
Clare's smell?, well she tries washing her yoma smell off normally, earlier on, but miria awakened in front of an a AB hunting team, and deneve obviously had done it in front of others, she says so to undine. Yet the org don't send either of them on a mission with ophelia.
I could be reading a poor interpretation, but i'm sure ophelia said even sarcastically oh you're quite strong/quite fast. And even if rapheala wasn't around to read that altercation she was in range of irene and clare's practice session in order to track irene, she even says their was another here...
Unsuited to quicksword?, why teach her the technique, give her your arm etc. For someone who's unsuited to it, she sure learnt to match it up with her yoki quickly, and took it to the next step 'controlled limb awakening'.
Of course it's generic, but it sure seemed a little suprising to riful, who's been kicking around for quite some time. Alicia the same/? we don't know if that's beth doing the controlling in the soul link or alicia holding it herself and relying on beth to pull her back. Or even if that's just considered a normal boost from awakening.
Haha, yeah like they care what rigardo's dying words are (Here lies rigardo the silver eyed lion king, fell to the partially awakened claymore clare in the war of the north famous last words "superb"...). The point is that lune saw this/?
Miata's comment about smell of power post time skip is irrelevent?, but i enter it as a show of continuity. No one's mentioned her yoki which incidentally is supressed as being any different
yet.
When i argued big battles make it difficult to read yoki, i mean from the perspective of the person actively participating, which is why i said it is relevent that galatea didn't read alicia's scanning or clare galatea's until after the slasher fight. There's something about having a sword or sharp tentacle jabbing at your face that makes concentration difficult i should imagine. For the scanner not involved in a fight it's easy to use full concentration to scan those that are, and are incidentally throwing their yoki around, compare miria's comment on the switch from pre-emptive perception to offense, and how she has to learn...
Shall we duel oh nemesis of mine...? And ask others who makes the most sense.Battle? I don't really care for it, giving our interpretation is enough.
It is implied that from this one instance the org knew and sent her on the slashers hunt.Yes, they knew. As I said, though, based on what Ophelia says, I think they knew afterwards from her scent.
She broke her limit infront of ophelia, and there is some speculation that rapheala was watching that little fight in order for her to be in range to find out about the isolated irene.Let's not use speculations as basis of more speculation. Rafaela just mentions that "it feels like someone else was here" when meeting Irene, that's not really conclusive of her stalking and knowing everything. Actually her not appearing before is proof, to me, that she was not there before. She does not have qualms about meeting multiple claymores or going against Clare, as she proved later.
She broke her limit not once but twice infront of galatea during the endless gravestones, and alicia was known to be scanning riful at that time.During the witch's maw, actually, and both time she was pulled back not by her will but by Galatea. She was also overpowered by non-awakened Galatea. Not a real good point for her.
in a duel with floraNo, she didn't go past her limit in the duel, Flora was asking about the fight with the AB before.
notice helen and deneve shut their traps after seeing her fight on par with miria. And galatea was watching that whole little sequence and so reports what she sees.Yeah, she sees that yoki reading is efficient and she says that she is weak. "the weak one" iirc. The power comes from the technique, not the hybridization.
Indeed, but as i said galatea was watching that little fight, and the anger of that AB was that even when he hit clare, she got back up again, unlike helen and deneve who were down and waiting to die. Yuma got back up when 24 others stayed down. Not a measure of the hybridization success but of the personality and luck of the individual claymore. Not replicable.
Yet the org don't send either of them on a mission with ophelia.They probably did the equivalent, the MiB knows they all are half awakened, and in Pieta, Deneve makes it clear that Miria struggled more than any of them. Only they do it off-screen.
I could be reading a poor interpretation, but i'm sure ophelia said even sarcastically oh you're quite strong/quite fast.Well, I saw it nowhere, so I must have missed it, and it makes no sense considering the garbage she hurls at clare during the whole Endless Gravestones, up to her mutilating Clare after hide and seek.
Of course, she does say, after awakening, that Clare became stronger, but that's not relevant to our hybridization talk since the speed and strength (which aren't enough to contain Ophelia anyway until she goes into shock) ebb from irene's arm, not from the Teresa flesh.
Unsuited to quicksword?, why teach her the technique, give her your arm etc. For someone who's unsuited to it, she sure learnt to match it up with her yoki quickly, and took it to the next step 'controlled limb awakening'. Take your beef with Irene and the author, I'm not the one who says it.
The point is that lune saw this/?And as I said before, Lune knows who is Clare how? Their names aren't written on their Yoki, at least 4 people the org knows half awakened, some multiple times. So probably anyone can do it. Also, Rafaella had to ask who between Jean or Clare was Clare, remember. The eye saw some people die, some go past their limits, get trounced, one awaken and come back then all of them die. In all probability, she never knew who they were.
Miata's comment about smell of power post time skip is irrelevent?, but i enter it as a show of continuity. No one's mentioned her yoki which incidentally is supressed as being any different yet.Irrelevant yes, because we are talking of Clarice's "creation", not of Clare's strength, which is, as I said before, real and huge. Thus, any fact about Clare that the org gathers after Clarice's creation is moot.
Anyway, to sum this up, even though Clare is strong, I don't think the org would go crazy to replicate her hybridization, since she always proved unstable and not that strong, relying on technique rather than brawns to win, and then on technique and a borrowed arm. Even with that she proved no stronger than a #8 or a #3, and needed someone to manipulate her yoki to pull back every time she lost control, which was often.
At this rate, if I was a MiB, what would interest more in that Clare experiment and data would be:
1) The coming back from awakened state thanks to a third party.
2) the boost in stats when pushing past limits on purpose.
3) the superiority of technique, most notably iaiken and yoki-reading
What I would have done with that? I would have developed twin Claymores that can awaken and pull back each others, and I would have developed another normal, strong Claymore, at Galatea's level of stability, who would focus on Yoki-reading. Of course, the org already knew and did all that ever since Rafaella/Luciela and Teresa. They just now know that 1/4 Yoma gives no result worth mentioning compared to these points.
Only thing different, though, I would also play Dr Frankenstein and try to put together an ultimate claymore made out of bits of other strong AB/Claymores. I bet that's why Galatea has no eyes and Clarice knew it, the org gouged them out before she left to put them on Lune or Miata :p
LOL...
Considering if they should go on with the experiment it is absolutely insignificant if Clare was a failure or not.
Do you think a Chemist would say: Ah wtf lets try something else?
Or do you think that the very first claymore was a success?
The MIB seem to be clever so I think they won't jump to conclusions from one failed experiment.
Another point: Considering the conversation of Rubel and Rimuto (was that the name of the orgs big cheese?) Rimuto seems to like the thought of Clare being strong, so since they found Ophelias awakened corpse there is a possibility that he believes that Clare killed her, even though Rubel said that its most unlikely.
FreshSalad
2008-03-30, 16:07
Just like to tell you guys that with all this argument about how it works, you might want to read the biology thread. You guys are sorta arguing about it in general terms, which is fine I guess as this is an alternate reality and we don't know how things work there.
chibamonster
2008-03-30, 16:09
The biggest problem the MiB's are going to face in replicating Clare is getting a hold of Teresa like material to create a new one. I am sure they have experimented around but that is just because I think they like to test results. For all intensive purposes I imagine the MiB's really see Clare as a failure especially because they put Teresa in her of all claymores. For most of her claymore career she really deserved the number 47.
They already have Alicia and Beth so a free thinking Claymore that could go over their limit might cause some trouble. Especially because even normal Claymores can partially awaken and the organization does not like that. If anything, Clare's strength of going over her limit and returning is something the organization would frown upon and not replicate unless they could control it. I mean they tried to kill off the fab four more than once. Clare might be strong now, but so are the Abyssals and they are not something the organization wants to replicate unless they can be controlled.
Awakened
2008-03-30, 16:18
If I was in the Org, I would be very interested in Clare. She is the weakest but seem to survive impossible odds. She not only survives but she seems to be getting stronger.
Clare experiment has the potential to give the Org something they never had before, custom made Claymore.
One more thing, we don't know if limb switching will work for an ordinary claymore. Clare on the other hand is 1/4 claymore, 1/4 Teresa. From the start she has been mixed with other humans.
Clare has a mind of her own, so it’s better to get rid of her and make a more obedient Clarice to experiment on and observe.
A true scientist will nerver stop experimenting because of a failure.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-30, 16:45
Haha, well i'm abit of a scientist, and one of the things ya need in an experiment is a control sample, best way to do that it would seem is to create a claymore that ain't gonna beserk. So you can keep monitoring, defensive claymore would be best for that they survive longer, but don't become too powerful.
Also i think the org has an icestore/icehouse, it's something that lots of rich people had before freezers, set below ground where the ambient temperature is around 12 degrees, the addition of ice allows you to keep food stored year around especially in temperate countries. Would make sense to have all the yoma parts their ready for surgery.
@flar i was trying to register some of my text in italics to show where i was being sarcastic and accidently lost my retort, but please look at the flora thing for a start, i swear she is talking about her dual with clare, the trivial nature comment at the end is in response to clares assertion at the start of the 'full power' dual.
FateAnomaly
2008-03-31, 00:46
I don't think limbs grafting is an unknown procedure among the claymores. Nobody are particular surprise that such a procedure is possible. Irene has no doubt that the grafting will be successful. Even Clare only protest is about the taking of the limb and not the validity of the procedure. When others detect Irene's arm , they naturally think that the arm was grafted on.
For Flora, I don't see it, beside if someone just next to her could not be sure, someone far and not knowing who is who would not be either.
For the rest, this talk of "science" is funny. Science is not about repeating the same experiment over and over until you get the result you want, and what the MiBs do is not science it's empirical alchemy at best. I have to remind you that:
The MiBs are not at the origin of Clare, she asked them to do it. If it was a venue they cared about, they would have tried it before (seriously, 77 Claymore generations is enough to try a few things for such great scientists, don't you think?)
You typically need a large sample to serve as reference, so that one idiosyncratic element doesn't skew the statistical result, but the MiB have shown they didn't operate like that, they do their Alicia, Miata experiments one at a time, and they do indeed change their next experiment depending on the results of the first.
"Failures" like Clarice were common back in the days of male Claymores (male AB in chapter 65), and are still appearing by the time of Tabatha's promotion (she says in chapter 66 that they are rare). Before you tell me that they are all experiments like Clare, I wish to point that 1) They appeared before Clare so no "Clare is strong, let's replicate her" and 2) They were all failures so the control sample is large enough to conclude that doing that same experiment over and over is useless.
Lastly, I would like to ask what would be the objective of the MiB in replicating Clare. She has not shown strength beyond single digit, she is unstable, she cannot function without another yoki-manipulating Claymore nearby, and she is so weak outside her bursts of power and borrowed limbs and techniques that normal Yomas were a danger to her. Why replicate that? She's like a weak Miata that thinks too much.
chibamonster
2008-03-31, 01:12
I agree Flar. Why would the organization want to replicate Clare? Partially awakening is not something the organization likes anyway. Even if they DID want to replicate Clare's experiment, I think the organization would be hard pressed to do it unless they have some corpse of another super claymore somewhere. Teresa was beyond strong. Can you imagine if they made a 1/4 claymore out of yuma's material? Clare gets to have the strongest claymore we have ever encountered as her base and she for all intensive purposes to the organization is a failure even though they knew she had an unpredictable element to her. Part of Rubel's reason for allowing the test was to attempt to preserve some of Teresa's rare talent as mentioned in the MiB discussion after Clare kills Ophelia.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-31, 08:37
I disagree flar, flora and lune/galatea/clare/tabitha are different types of claymore, and flora *was* being polite, ophelia on the other hand had seen miria pretty much do the same, and accused clare of cheating, and being an AB. Galatea could read the emotional state of the claymores in the slashers arc and tell deneve went over the limit. Even though in training why would lune the replacement eye be any different? Two claymores having a dual during a mass AB hunt, in a lull of battle (only yoki release going on) and one of them goes over the limit, seems pretty obvious to me.
Yes science is a product of modernity/industrialisation and renaissance philosophy, so is inapplicable to a medieval fantasy setting, so we shall use the term empirical alchemists, as semantic as it is.
The MiBs are not at the origin of Clare, she asked them to do it. If it was a venue they cared about, they would have tried it before (seriously, 77 Claymore generations is enough to try a few things for such great scientists, don't you think?)
Indeed she instigated the experiment, something that simply may not have occured to them, in modern science it is widely agreed that the svente arrhennius (of the arrhennius acid fame) pretty much had CO2 warming in the atmosphere pegged around 100 or so years ago with a paper on carbonic acid and heat in the atmosphere, which was largely forgotten till the 70's. And that is a real life venue of concern that was missed by all the worlds 'great scientists'.
You typically need a large sample to serve as reference, so that one idiosyncratic element doesn't skew the statistical result, but the MiB have shown they didn't operate like that, they do their Alicia, Miata experiments one at a time, and they do indeed change their next experiment depending on the results of the first.
Hahaha experimentation please look at the definition of the word, you should also bear in mind that if you can't repeat experiments properly because of a lack of material (e.g. genetic) you have to remove the variables in order to get at what your'e after. Most of the procedures in the lab are removing variables and preventing contamination of samples. If you find a undesirable element in an experiment you remove the variable and repeat.
"But didn't you conclude that your'e plan had been unrealistic"- Rubel
"But at no point has the fact change that they're is an uncertain element to #47" - Rimuto
"Whatever it is, not knowing whether she is dead or alive is unacceptable" - Rimuto
Seems to me someone is keeping track of their experiment. Alicia and Beth are an experiment that started when Rapheala and Luciela failed (presumably partly because of ego, enter the variable removal of egoless twins raised by the org). There is no proof that miata is an experiment, just another incredibly young/powerful claymore.
From the Soul link thing it is widely stated that the same yoma is used as genetic material, this means a single yoma donor can provide more than enough genetic material for 2 samples. Teresa as donor 2- 1 clare leaves enough for one more experiment, minus all the variables that irritated you first time round (ie clares temperment). They can't repeat the experiment whilst clare is alive 'because' of the possibility of a soul link, which is what they don't want in other claymores. So knowing that she did manage to inherit the trait they wanted (mail order claymore) they can repeat without interruption, once she's dead. Que entrance of the most loyal and obedient claymore in training they can make, also there is the possibility that they don't want to have the genetic sample rejected so you go and find a similar sample to clare, if they bought the zemas twins, such a thing ain't impossible, a family member to the original (like a transplant donor) will be the most likely to take. I also said there is the likelyhood it could be irene, that got used as donor material, she disappeared around that time, and was not an AB. However i do believe the org is likely to have one of these.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icehouse_%28building%29
"Failures" like Clarice were common back in the days of male Claymores (male AB in chapter 65), and are still appearing by the time of Tabatha's promotion (she says in chapter 66 that they are rare). Before you tell me that they are all experiments like Clare, I wish to point that 1) They appeared before Clare so no "Clare is strong, let's replicate her" and 2) They were all failures so the control sample is large enough to conclude that doing that same experiment over and over is useless
No as i was saying clarice isn't a failure because of her donor material, she's considered a failure because of her yoki release inability. The hair colour is a symptom/indicator of this, along with not being able to regulate body temp. Chances are even among normal claymores that these rarities either die out or learn to release yoki and 'probably' gain the blonde hair anyway, so no one knows any different, as they enter the ranks. If anything the large number of these failures during the beginning of the claymore generations indicates an unknown variable/factor that has since been weeded out, (unless said factor is part of another experiment).
I'm sure i read somewhere that the point of the experiment is 'genetic inheritance', like that of popular eugenecists and cattle farmers everywhere they are attempting inheritance of a desired trait, it's nothing different from getting dogs from wolves (are dogs weaker?, not neccessarily but certainly more useful to man). Bearing in mind that claymores can't reproduce to our knowledge (helen's comment about raki), this is a major leap, in getting the mail order claymores you want. Need a new eye, no problem we have 3 on ice... etc. (All this has me thinking of the excellent film Gattaca :) )
On the contrary she has shown single digit strength whilst being scanned twice, she was certainly on par with jean and flora, and they were 9 and 8 respectively. That's discounting the survival of #6's team during the slashers arc, thanks to clare. Clare is 'unstable' which is why you remove the mental instability (desire for revenge/against priscilla) and replace it with the defensive 'i want to live' mentality. Clare functioned just fine without a yoki manipulator in rabona and against ophelia, and against multiple yoma, she had a problem in the witch's maw as i said because she had a borrowed arm, which had a different yoki signature, and her 'weak yoki' is not an indicator of overall power, remember claymores don't age but do mature, clare has half the strength, half the endurance and presumably half the growth rate of the other claymores and still got through training. What they are looking to replicate isn't clare it's what clare could do, and she proved she had that in the slashers.
Hahaha experimentation please look at the definition of the word,I'm sorry, I stopped reading here. Hope it didn't take you too much time writing the rest.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-31, 10:23
hehehe, as my friend would say 'how rude', nah i can touch type, so it's not a problem, but i try to stay away from the biology thread for a reason.
but i try to stay away from the biology thread for a reason.
IMO the discussions in the biology thread were much more friendly like this one here :p
tenken627
2008-03-31, 11:22
I also find it interesting how the MiBs never discuss Clare's half-awakening during the conversation about Ophelia and Clare.
We assume that they have this knowledge since Clare is sent on the Slashers' hunt because she half-awakened in Rabona, but they never mention the possibility of Clare being able to do so to defeat Ophelia. The MiBs don't mention half-awakenings anywhere in the 78 chapters.
The only things that they do mention regarding the possibility of Clare taking out an awakened Ophelia is that the numbers do not represent an absolute ranking of power, and that there is an uncertain element about Clare due to her taking in Teresa's flesh. Nothing was brought up about Clare being able to take out awakened Ophelia because Clare can half-awaken herself.
If the MiBs knew Clare was half-awakened, survived the Slashers' hunt, and still wanted her dead, they would have sent her on another "dangerous" mission just like the one Rubel sent her with Ophelia. Yet, the councilmen (including Rimuto) do not seem to know about any of this.
It seems like Rubel actually tries to diminish Clare in front of the council, stating such things like there is basically almost 0 percent chance that a #47 could have taken out an awakened #4, and that the plan for Clare being a revived Teresa was considered unrealistic by the council. It's the councilmen who acknowledges that Clare has an unknown element about her even though she has a weak youki output, not Rubel. But, Rubel knows about Clare's weak youki output ever since her training and was still very intrigued by her during her final test and afterwards.
He also seems very interested after hearing about Galatea being sent after Clare. He says "I see... Pretty competent." "This has something of a stalemate. I wonder what she will do now?"
chibamonster
2008-03-31, 14:51
We know for sure that Orsay ang Galatea saw a partial awakening with Deneve. If partial awakening has something to do with the organizations deepest secret then it makes sense that they never talk about it.
And even with Clare's partial awakened speed from crossing her limit Clare still stood 0% chance of beating even normal Claymore Ophelia. She beat Ophelia because she had Irene's arm and because Ophelia wanted to die.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-03-31, 14:59
Well that would be because the rippling sword couldn't be parried normally. She had good defence, with the pre-emptive perception, down to predicting the first ripple sword attack. But she couldn't run and evade all the time, she just wasn't fast enough, it really sucked big time, that the second claymore she got to spar with was ophelia, even miria was #8 or so before meeting her.
And even with Clare's partial awakened speed from crossing her limit Clare still stood 0% chance of beating even normal Claymore Ophelia. She beat Ophelia because she had Irene's arm and because Ophelia wanted to die.
I wouldn't call Ophelia a normal claymore, she was nr 4 after all (even if she should have been nr 5 because Raphaela was just put in rank 5 even though she was way stronger)
chibamonster
2008-03-31, 15:25
I meant Claymore form Ophelia as opposed to awakened being Ophelia who was much tougher. And I agree that the ripple sword was a tough thing to get past for Clare pre-Irene's arm. The organization was right in thinking that Clare could not have beaten an awakened Ophelia though. Although they might have pieced some information together from Raphaela after she met with Irene, especially since she was missing her other arm at that point too. The organization must have put it together to see that Clare did have Irene's arm. Raphaela would have known because of the youki signatures if by nothing else.
tenken627
2008-03-31, 16:03
Galatea told Ermita that one of the four (Deneve) awakened, but then she backtracks by saying that she was mistaken about the awakening and that all four Claymores were normal. Galatea excuses her mistake by saying that it's a long distance. Ermita never sees anything personally, he had to rely on what Galatea tells him.
If he suspected Deneve of partially awakening before, then he might not believe Galatea's bactracking comments. Still, he has no concrete evidence for that incident. Only Galatea does, and she is becoming suspicious of the Organization by that point anyways.
I don't think partial awakenings are a deep secret exactly. The reason why the MiBs are silent about it is because I think that the council (including Rimuto) truly never knew anything about Clare being half-awakened. If any of the MiBs know, it would be only Rubel and possibly another.
Even if Clare in a half-awakened state had zero chance against Ophelia in her Claymore form, partial awakening is a power boost. The council could have mentioned this power boost in their discussion of how a #47 could kill an awakened #4, but they seem like they don't really know much about Clare at all. And Rubel never offers up that information.
Is Rubel intentionally hiding that information from his higher-ups?
It may be due to translation, but I wonder what he means with the word "stalemate" after hearing Rimuto's command to have Galatea follow Clare. Stalemate between who? Himself and Rimuto?
Sleepy Speculator
2008-04-03, 12:54
That's interesting, i just thought, why did rapheala bother asking which one was clare, when she met clare and jean, when clare clearly has ilena's arm. She'd met ilena, minus her arms, so she'd know the yoki signature. Furthermore, clare didn't sense rubel, it seems they both sneaked up on her... hmmmm
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