View Full Version : Habitual flaming
I've noticed that flaming has become an increasing problem on the AnimeSuki forums. It really bugs me how many good threads are locked due to flamewars started by habitual flamers, people who seem simply unable to carry on a civilized discussion with anyone who doesn't agree 100% with them. And it bugs me even more that these habitual flamers aren't dealth with. Several of them blatantly disregard the rules concerning flaming/insulting/harassment because they KNOW they are unlikely to be banned, especially if they have been members for a while. I don't want to criticize the job the moderators do here, but I think locking the thread while letting the flamers continue to roam is a little bit too simple.
My personal opinion is that temporary banning of habitual rulebreakers should be used, and maybe delete some of the offending posts, even if it might make some threads look a bit strange. Locking the threads while letting them continue to sour the enviroment is going to make things progressivly worse as the number of members on the forums increase. Unless there is a firm stand against this kind of thing, AnimeSuki will eventually be abandoned by any decent person out there since it will only be a run-down forum of whiners and flamers like much of the rest on the web.
This is a pretty bleak picture I'm painting here, but all the old-timers must surely have noticed the trend. There's no reason to think it will get better all by itself. The moderators might not want to come across as tyrants who ban people who don't fully agree with them, but I think that you are a bit too lenient at times. Just because a person has been a member for some time doesn't mean that he should be excempt from the rules. Quite the contrary, IMO, members who've been around a while have an increased responsibility to behave according to rules and common decency, to set examples, and as such they should be treated more firmly when they willingly break rules than the newbies do.
I'm not looking to make enemies here, or to point fingers and make holier-than-thou speeches at people. Nor am I trying to blame the mods for the current state of the forums (believe me, I don't envy you your un-paid, low perk job) But I think AnimeSuki is seeing a negative trend which should be reversed before it gets even worse, before it chases away almost every decent person on the web and invites all the undesirables to take over.
Maybe I'm just getting old....
Anyway: Please deal with repeating flamers (and repeating trolls, they're not any better) before you lock valid and interesting threads.
Hmmm, I tend to agree with AG3 in this matter. Flamebaiting has become pretty much expected behaviour from several persons who are quite frequent posters on the board. And as much as one would think that sensible persons would ignore them, that just isn't the case.
Maybe a policy change (the rules are already there, it would seem) to impose a time limited bad for blatantly inflammatory posts, combined with a mandatory deletion of the post itself would do the trick?
In any case, I do think that the mods here do a fantastic job of keeping the forum clean of crud. This is, by far, the best kept forum I have ever frequented, and my continuing presence is a testament to that fact, hehe. A little stricter enforcement of the "no flaming (or flamebaiting)" rule is really all that is needed ;)
I'm so glad you brought this topic up... I just started posting again and have noticed quite a lot flamewars starting. I enjoy reading a good debate when done tackfully without insulting one anothers views. There has been some excellent topics made and then closed because a flamewar starts.
I believe there needs to be some sort of limit to this "flamebaiting".
dragonz20
2004-01-13, 10:20
I agree... something has to be done and quickly. One thing the mods can do is instead of locking up the thread, they can simply edit out the flaming post and then PM the poster with a warning of a temporary ban if he violates it again in that specific thread. If this poster is flaming in multiple threads, then the mods can take extreme measures (temporary or permanent ban).
Do we have enough mods anyway? maybe it's because we don't have enough mods.
What exactly is everyone asking for here? For the moderators to broaden their definition of what a flame is? I don't think that we're in any danger of stepping onto a "slippery slope" where the filtration of flamebait becomes censorship which results in tyranny, but some of you are asking for what is perhaps a redefinition of the already fuzzy critera for flaming.
When does a series of posts become meaningful conversation?
When does a conversation become a discussion?
When does a discussion become an argument?
When does an argument become heated?
When does it all get out of control?
When should action be taken?
Should a user be banned? For how long?
Should their posts be removed?
That's a lot of questions, and perhaps I haven't been frequenting the forums enough, but I've not really noticed such a huge increase in the amount of flaming to warrant asking all of these.
[EDIT]I just re-read my post and I thought that I would just add that I'm all for the continued security of this community, but that I get a little ruffled whenever there is talk of post-deletion. I don't want anything taken too far and posts/threads getting deleted because someone stepped over the line briefly. I'm more in favour of "cooling-off" periods of a few days to a week myself. Or are we talking about real problem causers, those whose only intent is to insult, and to ruin a thread once things have not gone their way?
What exactly is everyone asking for here? For the moderators to broaden their definition of what a flame is? I don't think that we're in any danger of stepping onto a "slippery slope" where the filtration of flamebait becomes censorship which results in tyranny, but some of you are asking for what is perhaps a redefinition of the already fuzzy critera for flaming.
When does a series of posts become meaningful conversation?
When does a conversation become a discussion?
When does a discussion become an argument?
When does an argument become heated?
When does it all get out of control?
When should action be taken?
Should a user be banned? For how long?
Should their posts be removed?
That's a lot of questions, and perhaps I haven't been frequenting the forums enough, but I've not really noticed such a huge increase in the amount of flaming to warrant asking all of these.
Megane not to be disrespectful here but its common sense?
Megane not to be disrespectful here but its common sense?
Thankyou for your polite comment, but if it was so obviously common sense, then by your arguing that something needs to be done, are you saying that the moderators lack this common sense?
Flash_Squirrel
2004-01-13, 11:10
A stand-alone post.
It's scary, I was talking about this same thing with NoSanninWa this morning, and I see that someone else noticed this flamewar "problem".
My idea is, if my opinion counts at all, that while we don't have big flamewars, the quick act against the little ones makes this forum so peaceful.
My point of view on this problem is that while it's a good thing to give some days of rest to the more abitual flamers (read: 1 or max 2 days of ban to cool down a little.) it's also good to close the hread for a few days.
The main point here is to show that, while flaming is a bad thing, it's not something only moderators have to fight with. If you are discussing on a thread and suddendly someone start some name-calling, you (you user) should be the first one to throw some water to the fire. Try to lighten a little the discussion, to avoid "hot" topics (there are gajillion of examples of "hot topic") or try to "scold" a little the flamers. Then the moderators will take action if the war keeps up.
The moderators are not enough ( 6/8 active moderator against 7.600 members is a little too much ) when you turn your head the other way instead of trying to lighten the mood yourself.
dragonz20
2004-01-13, 11:21
apparently it not just us but the mods who have noticed this problem. no one said this problem would be easily solved or there aren't any issues to deal with. and just because the mods haven't brought this up to the forum doesn't mean they aren't aware of it. they were probably discussing it among themselves as Flash_Squirrel pointed it out and deciding on an appropriate course of action.
and btw, i guess I was right about animesuki needing more mods. It's tough to find the right person to be a mod so I do appreciate all the work all of you have been doing!
Thankyou for your polite comment, but if it was so obviously common sense, then by your arguing that something needs to be done, are you saying that the moderators lack this common sense?
...
The moderators are not enough ( 6/8 active moderator against 7.600 members is a little too much ) when you turn your head the other way instead of trying to lighten the mood yourself.
Sorry, but I can't help but point out that that's either a manipulation or a misinterpretation of the figures we are dealing with. It has already been pointed out in the Deleting Users (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=4143) thread that the number of active users hovers around 500. It's with this value that we have to consider whether or not we need more moderators.
Thankyou for your polite comment, but if it was so obviously common sense, then by your arguing that something needs to be done, are you saying that the moderators lack this common sense?
Megane? just by reading other members post you call tell? did you read what Flash_Squirrel said? I have no idea what you are trying to start with me? But if you like a full explaination please pm me and I can break it down step by step.
:twitch:
dragonz20
2004-01-13, 11:39
Aren't you being a little nitpicky?.. It hovers around 500 @ one time but some come and go and some stay and read. some post and leave... regardless of whether or not all 7600 are actively posting, that's still a lot of of people to watch. 7-8 mods is not even close to enuff because this forum is active almost 24/7.
Sorry, but I can't help but point out that that's either a manipulation or a misinterpretation of the figures we are dealing with. It has already been pointed out in the Deleting Users (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=4143) thread that the number of active users hovers around 500. It's with this value that we have to consider whether or not we need more moderators.
ElvenPath
2004-01-13, 11:45
7-8 mods is not even close to enuff because this forum is active almost 24/7.
Since this board generates a lot of activity it's up to us, this board's community, to report specific problems.
Aren't you being a little nitpicky?.. It hovers around 500 @ one time but some come and go and some stay and read. some post and leave... regardless of whether or not all 7600 are actively posting, that's still a lot of of people to watch. 7-8 mods is not even close to enuff because this forum is active almost 24/7.
Yes, I am. I just like to see numbers abused as little as possible. They have feelings too!
Megane? just by reading other members post you call tell? did you read what Flash_Squirrel said? I have no idea what you are trying to start with me? But if you like a full explaination please pm me and I can break it down step by step.
:twitch:
Sorry Cammie but it appears you have misunderstood what I said. I'll try and put it a little simpler:
You suggested that there is too much flaming, and that the mods are not dealing with it properly.
I am saying that the mods have not changed the way they act recently.
If you are suggesting that the mods change the way they act towards flaming, or change what they classify as a flame, then they must consider the questions I stated above.
If it is very obvious (common sense) as to how to deal with flaming, and if you think that the mods are not dealing with flaming properly, then it might be concluded that your statement says that the mods lack common sense.
I'm sure however that this isn't what you mean, but I think that you might be underestimating how hard it is to judge where a thread will go, and that it might not be so easy to say if a post is flame or not, if it borders on heated discussion.
Yes, I am. I just like to see numbers abused as little as possible. They have feelings too!
Sorry Cammie but it appears you have misunderstood what I said. I'll try and put it a little simpler:
You suggested that there is too much flaming, and that the mods are not dealing with it properly.
I am saying that the mods have not changed the way they act recently.
If you are suggesting that the mods change the way they act towards flaming, or change what they classify as a flame, then they must consider the questions I stated above.
If it is very obvious (common sense) as to how to deal with flaming, and if you think that the mods are not dealing with flaming properly, then it might be concluded that your statement says that the mods lack common sense.
I'm sure however that this isn't what you mean, but I think that you might be underestimating how hard it is to judge where a thread will go, and that it might not be so easy to say if a post is flame or not, if it borders on heated discussion.
When did I say that the Mods weren't doing their jobs? I see where you are going with this. But you need to understand, that I'm not saying that any of the Moderators are slacking or not doing their job. All I was saying is that there has been lots of flamewars lately being started. (please read Flash_Squirrel comment again) You need to relax and not read to much into what I am writing and assume? and the comment was not towards you but to what I've noticed since I started posting again on AS. Again, this is one of best forums I've been on! I'm very partiality to AnimeSuki for my own reasons.
dragonz20
2004-01-13, 13:11
yes.. i've come to realize that maybe we have to be a bit more active too in reporting these problems. this can impact this forum negatively too though. what if everyone starts pm the mods everytime they encounter something they believe to be a problem..? they'll be flooded w/ requests that may be just deadends. well i do love this forum and i am just trying to ensure that it stays as one of the best.
and megane,
we have been very clear about this. people will jump into threads for no other reason than just to flame without adding useful comments. we are just saying that there is a problem and that even the mods have acknowledged it and we are just inquiring or letting the mods know. This section is after all: The forum and site feedback. in no way did anyone of us state that the mods are doing a bad job. don't start implying anything. we just care a lot about this forum...
Since this board generates a lot of activity it's up to us, this board's community, to report specific problems.
It's true and sadly obvious that the flaming has increased very badly lately and I notice that it's usually always by the same people.
And to banish one or two days even if I think that it must be done but isn't sufficient, that 'heals' only the symptoms.
When it's the whole threads that should be closed, it must be done quickly.
Same for a post which need to be erased or edited because if not the whole thread is dead.
And for that there isn't much solution, people must report the problems to the mods.
Because they can't find all the flame in all the thread all the time even with more people.
Also Flash_Squirrel is right, trying to "scold" a little the flamers can be a good thing exept that many people who try to scold/cool up/whatever end up taking part in the flame wars, whitout speaking ot the hey-you're-not-a-modo-shadup! reaction.
NoSanninWa
2004-01-13, 16:17
First of all I'd like to thank everyone here for making their opinions known. I don't think that we mods are likely to post much in here because we are having our own discussion in private. I am telling you this because I want you to know that we are paying a great deal of attention to what you are saying, so please continue. As Flash_Squirrel has said, we care about this problem and are trying to decide how serious it is and what to do about it. Your words here may influence our decisions.
As for forum members helping to cool down flaming, please remember never to attack the flamers. Merely request that they cool things off, or else try bringing the conversation back to the topic. Never confront a flamer or you will be dragged into the argument. Keep this in mind and you too can help fight forum fires. Thank you very much if you want to try.
Just one final note. People have expressed doubt about the usefulness of a temporary ban in cooling down flames. My usual reaction to flamers is a two day ban and a polite PM explaining why. I usually get one of two responses to this. Either the flamer appologizes and tries to do better or else he says "FU, I'm quitting your stupid forum for good, you biased nazi." (actually it can get nastier than this) Either way the problem is solved, although the second response does hurt my feelings. Of course this doesn't solve all problems, but that is what permanent bans are for.
First of all I'd like to thank everyone here for making their opinions known. I don't think that we mods are likely to post much in here because we are having our own discussion in private. I am telling you this because I want you to know that we are paying a great deal of attention to what you are saying, so please continue. As Flash_Squirrel has said, we care about this problem and are trying to decide how serious it is and what to do about it. Your words here may influence our decisions.
As for forum members helping to cool down flaming, please remember never to attack the flamers. Merely request that they cool things off, or else try bringing the conversation back to the topic. Never confront a flamer or you will be dragged into the argument. Keep this in mind and you too can help fight forum fires. Thank you very much if you want to try.
Just one final note. People have expressed doubt about the usefulness of a temporary ban in cooling down flames. My usual reaction to flamers is a two day ban and a polite PM explaining why. I usually get one of two responses to this. Either the flamer appologizes and tries to do better or else he says "FU, I'm quitting your stupid forum for good, you biased nazi." (actually it can get nastier than this) Either way the problem is solved, although the second response does hurt my feelings. Of course this doesn't solve all problems, but that is what permanent bans are for.
awww.... that was really nicely put.
maybe we should use my 3 warning rule that I use with my students?
1. 5 min timeout on AS: pm from a Mod
2. 10 min timeout on AS: pm from a Mod plus 1 day ban
3. no recess or freetime on AS: pm from a Mod plus 3-5 ban
lol... this is only a joke!!
I think it's a very fine line for a Mod to walk, between "oppressing" the forum users and merely maintaining order.
All the forum users, not only the mods, have a responsibility to help make this an enjoyable place to hang out. Flaming is only as big a problem as we let it be, really. When someone flames, the best thing to do is just ignore the whole thread (or just the person flaming). If no one is willing to aknowledge the existence of the offending post(s), the flamer will hopefully have the presence of mind to realize he/she is wasting energy. Trying to cool things down might have worked if the habitual flamers were capable of rational thought, which they usually don't seem to be.
I'll admit that ignoring flamers is easier said than done. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've been tempted to tell moronic posters a thing or two. But as I'd only make things worse (see "lack of rational thought in flamers" above), it'd be a wasted effort, and a counter-productive one. Talking sense into habitual flamers isn't easy. The problem isn't what you are saying to them, the problem is that they aren't listening. They don't want to.
As the saying goes, action speaks louder than words.
When does a series of posts become meaningful conversation?
When does a conversation become a discussion?
When does a discussion become an argument?
When does an argument become heated?
When does it all get out of control?
When should action be taken?
Should a user be banned? For how long?
Should their posts be removed?
We should think of how this applies to this thread. Notice how cammie and megane started to push this thread into a flame match? Were they having a dicussion or a heated argument? It all depends on your definitions of things like that. Is AG3's comment
Trying to cool things down might have worked if the habitual flamers were capable of rational thought, which they usually don't seem to be.
A flame? Should he be banned from the forum for a day or two? Hell since he's a vetran he should be banned for the slightest thing resembling a flame! Atleast that's what someone else thought in his post.
Scolding a flamer/troll does absolutly nothing. It just lets them know that someone has responded to their post and that they can post another flame/troll post.
Trolls/Flamers tend to only flame in certain threads. These threads are usually mindless threads that don't fall under the category of "Meaningful conversation." or threads that have progressed past meaningful conversation into the area of heated discussions. So the best solution is to try and keep everything a "Meaningful Conversation" If a thread recieves a flame counter it with some "meaningful conversation." Keep this in mind and you too can help fight forum fires. (http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/130104-forumfire.wav)
Worldestroyer
2004-01-13, 18:14
I agree with JAppi, don't fan the flames of forest fires by talking to a Flamer. Like he said, they usually just want to gain attention and them selves are mently fucked up to start with. But then there are the flamers who are so fed up with horribly stupid posts and threads that they just respond and try to stop the people from talking. Or to show their displeasure with the Post/thread.
BTW: if i see 1 more Dbz Vs. Naruto thread, i think i'm going to go insane
diabolistic
2004-01-13, 23:19
awww.... that was really nicely put.
maybe we should use my 3 warning rule that I use with my students?
1. 5 min timeout on AS: pm from a Mod
2. 10 min timeout on AS: pm from a Mod plus 1 day ban
3. no recess or freetime on AS: pm from a Mod plus 3-5 ban
lol... this is only a joke!!
In the old country, the teachers took the deliquent child to the town square and flogged him to within an inch of their lives
(also a joke... please don't research what country i'm from ^^; )
My own views are.. i guess, a little harsh.
bad behavior should be handled with quick and direct punishment.
don't even bother with temporary bans, and jump straight to permbans.
if they want to rejoin animesuki, they should send you an email expressing first their apologies, and second, the reason to why they should be allowed back into the forums.
and dealing with flame wars..
unless they are directed at me i try to ignore them, otherwise,.. there IS a pm function that allows me to convey my personal opinions concerning the offender's mother, extended family, and sexual orientation.. though in all honesty, i haven't been a victim of a flame war yet (phew).
I say animesuki needs more mods, the more the better. Their are times when not a single mod is online for hours, sometimes even a whole day. Not like the current mods are not doing their jobs but they're just isn't enough of them to stop/prevent flame wars and enforce the current forum rules. But like what NoSanninWa said about having other forum members fighting the flames and helping to enforce the rules is also a good solution. I'll go with either just as long as the animesuki forums stays flame free.
Hmmm.........personally I think animesuki is kind of a nice place with not too many flammings............(well......yeah, I haven't been here for a while ^^bbb) so I guess it isn't necessary to get more mod. :)
and i can see many flammers are gathering in anime.mircx.com's new forum........ :uhoh:
First of all, I'd like to apologise if any of my contributions on these forums fall under the flamebait (or outright flaming) category. I was pretty surprised when JAppi said:
Notice how cammie and megane started to push this thread into a flame match?
I had never considered my posts to be flames, but perhaps I'm working with a different definition of flame here? I know that quite often I continue along a line of discussion that may best be left alone. I realise that sometimes I'm not very sutble, a little heavy-handed with my words. I don't make a habit out of challenging other people's opinions, but I like to see topics evolve, to branch out slightly from the original premise.
Yes, it's something I've done with this thread. I took the side of the extreme liberal, fearing any form of oppression that may result from an increase of thread lockdowns or user bans. I thought it would be interesting to question those who had posted, to make them really think about not just the fact that perhaps there was an increased level of flaming, but also to think about the ramifications brought about by any change. I'm not trying to push anyone into an argument, I like to think I am very suggestive with my opinions, rather than pretending that the case I put forwad is an invincible structure.
All in all, it was only a bit of intellectual fun. You'll probably find me not to be so opinionated in real life. Now, if this behavior is frowned upon, I'll stop it. With all this talk of both mods and users spotting an increase in flaming, the problem must be worse than I had originally observed. Perhaps what I need, is an absolute answer to the question JAppi asked indirectly (if I read his post right), what is a flame?
Hopefully some of the posts in this thread will provide good material towards deciding when one crosses over the line and enters flame-territory. Perhaps that's another reason why I've been a little forward wih my replies, because I wanted to make people realise that it isn't obvious (at least to me) what constitutes a flame or not. By replying with a little attitude, I've tried to get as close to the border of sensible discussion as possible.
So for now, I bow to my fellow forum members and stand down from my soapbox. I offer my apologies if at any point anyone felt I ruined the mood, and I leave the floor open for others to tear my ramblings to bits :D
We should think of how this applies to this thread. Notice how cammie and megane started to push this thread into a flame match? Were they having a dicussion or a heated argument? It all depends on your definitions of things like that. Is AG3's comment
A flame? Should he be banned from the forum for a day or two? Hell since he's a vetran he should be banned for the slightest thing resembling a flame! Atleast that's what someone else thought in his post.
All we are doing is expressing our opinion. I like that Megane sticks to what he believes.. In all fairness I like debating with him because it gives me a reason to post a response. LOL... its all in good fun, right Megane?
JAppi I'll just ignore.... because I know you like to start flames.
All we are doing is expressing our opinion. I like that Megane sticks to what she believes.. In all fairness I like debating with her because it gives me a reason to post a response. LOL... its all in good fun, right Megane?
...
Ah, more evidence that not everyone agrees on what a flame is. It pleases me that someone else thinks my posts are non-harmful. I enjoy a good debate as much as the next person, and I'm glad at least one person in the world likes debating with me :)
dragonz20
2004-01-14, 11:07
Megane,
you didn't start a flame war here. All you started was a good spirited debate. We (I and Cammie) were only questioning where you were coming from to better understand what you were trying to get at.
now Jappi is different. you have a tendency to jump into a thread and post some rude comments without providing decent feedback. you're one of the reasons why this thread was started. a good example is this:
"Why the hell does this thread still exist?
Shouldn't it be obvious? Buying bootlegs or downloading licensed anime makes you a leeching fuck. If you are a leeching fuck, you should probably kill yourself.
Thank you.
That is all the thread needs to contain! Not 5 pages of moraliy bullshit!"
This was posted by Jappi in a thread that was eventually closed a little bit later. I was actively posting on this thread so that pissed me off a bit. And from what I hear, you've done this numerous times and I've seen at least one other person in here posting his frustration over your flaming tendencies. Regardless of whether the thread was getting stale or not, you have no right to be rude even if you wanted to get the thread closed. I admit, I've also been rude to others but that was during an argument. i was basically fighting back. you jump into an argument and start to flame for no reason. you are only 14 but there are many young posters in here as well and they are nowhere near as bothersome as you are. if you want to post a comment do it but don't pepper it with your cursings and force the thread to be closed by a mod.
as for your comments. who are you to decide what is a meaningful conversation? that's opinionated. i may see it as meaningful and you may not based on interest. if you are not interested, stay out of it. but obviously from my example, it was interesting enough for you to enter the thread, read it and then post a comment. if the thread has been draggin' on for a while with no progress then either the mod will close it themselves or it will simply die. but don't put in your worthless flaming two cents in it... so i found it very humorous and ironic for you to be posting in this thread since you are one of the problems we are referring to.
Interesting.... how a thread about flamers turned into a flame. :nono:
Edit: For the punk who gave me a bad rep in this thread, go ahead and give me 50 more bad reps cuz I dont care. :fingers:
dragonz20
2004-01-14, 11:26
no one flamed. i was restating an event that happened. and i politely pointed out that jappi had been annoying recently and he's a habitual flamer. i didn't cuss him out in anyway. this is not flaming. this subject is a gray area in need of further discussion...
Interesting.... how a thread about flamers turned into a flame. :nono:
no one flamed. i was restating an event that happened. and i politely pointed out that jappi had been annoying recently and he's a habitual flamer. i didn't cuss him out in anyway. this is not flaming. this subject is a gray area in need of further discussion...
you maybe right but I can see the potential for a flame war.
First of all, I'd like to apologise if any of my contributions on these forums fall under the flamebait (or outright flaming) category. I was pretty surprised when JAppi said:
Notice how cammie and megane started to push this thread into a flame match?
I had never considered my posts to be flames, but perhaps I'm working with a different definition of flame here? I know that quite often I continue along a line of discussion that may best be left alone. I realise that sometimes I'm not very sutble, a little heavy-handed with my words. I don't make a habit out of challenging other people's opinions, but I like to see topics evolve, to branch out slightly from the original premise.
Well, I never said you were pushing it to a flame. I'm sorry. I wasn't very clear. I interpreted your definitions as a flow chart for forums.
Series of posts > Meaningful Conversation > Arguement > Heated debate > Flame heaven > Mass naked child events
Yes, it's something I've done with this thread. I took the side of the extreme liberal, fearing any form of oppression that may result from an increase of thread lockdowns or user bans.
You are absolutly correct, closing more threads won't stop flames. The flames will still be there. They will just be more threads with flames in them. AFAIK the mods don't like locking threads anyways. I remember NoSanninWa saying once in the channel that whenever he locks a thread it reminds him that someone just doesn't get it.
All in all, it was only a bit of intellectual fun. You'll probably find me not to be so opinionated in real life. Now, if this behavior is frowned upon, I'll stop it.
Me too, sometimes I like to start long winded discussions just because I like nested quotes.
what I need, is an absolute answer to the question JAppi asked indirectly (if I read his post right), what is a flame?
That is the question! And no the answer is not 42.
Hopefully some of the posts in this thread will provide good material towards deciding when one crosses over the line and enters flame-territory. Perhaps that's another reason why I've been a little forward wih my replies, because I wanted to make people realise that it isn't obvious (at least to me) what constitutes a flame or not. By replying with a little attitude, I've tried to get as close to the border of sensible discussion as possible.
It should be left entirely up to the mods, this *is* their forum and they should get the final say.
Megane,
you didn't start a flame war here. All you started was a good spirited debate.
But when will this debate cross the line into flame territory?
We (I and Cammie) were only questioning where you were coming from to better understand what you were trying to get at.
You shouldn't be deciding what other people are thinking. It will result in flames.
now Jappi is different. you have a tendency to jump into a thread and post some rude comments without providing decent feedback. you're one of the reasons why this thread was started. a good example is this:
Example removed
I find that offensive. You are flaming me. Do not try and belittle me.
I was actively posting on this thread so that pissed me off a bit. And from what I hear, you've done this numerous times and I've seen at least one other person in here posting his frustration over your flaming tendencies.
Whoop dee doo! One whole person! I also get tons of positive feedback. Infact I have a whole fanclub of people who think I'm god like.
I admit, I've also been rude to others but that was during an argument.
So I can be rude to you right now and somehow it's okay? Why can't I just jump into the arguement and insult people? Is that any different at all then insulting people in the arguement?
you are only 14
/me points at the profile button. You might wanna check your math again.
but there are many young posters in here as well and they are nowhere near as bothersome as you are.
It's been established before, the age of the poster really has no bearing on whether or not they are capable of posting garbage. Bfdd who has been banned from the forum for posting flames is signifigantly older then me.
if you want to post a comment do it but don't pepper it with your cursings and force the thread to be closed by a mod.
as for your comments. who are you to decide what is a meaningful conversation?
And what gives you the right to decide what's a meaningful conversation and what's not a meaningful conversation? My string of curse words can be seen as a meaninful converstation to some people.
but don't put in your worthless flaming two cents in it...
as for your comments. who are you to decide what is a meaningful conversation?
So, who are you to decide what is a meaningful conversation? You said that my posts are worthless. That is a flame. You directly insult me.
I found it very humorous and ironic for you to be posting in this thread since you are one of the problems we are referring to.
Once again you flamed me. What makes you think you're so much better then me and you're allowed to flame me?
It is pointless for us to debate this. It *is* in the end up to the moderators to decide what is appropriate and what is not appropriate.
dragonz20
2004-01-14, 15:21
I don't even know why I bother with you sometimes...
My whole point about meaningful conversation is that when there are several people posting and debating in a thread, one should not jump in and throw useless comments full of curses (as you have been doing) for the sole purpose of closing the thread. so if people A, B, C are chatting away and person D jumps in and post "you guys are morons. it should be blah blah blah and that's it. why do you all bother to continue jawing away pointlessly.. this thread should be closed!!!" , then that's outright flaming and you have done that. to those people, it was a meaningful conversation in that thread and it's not fair to them. you forced the topic to be closed because of your post. so if you don't value the topic of the thread and then avoid it. if you think your behavior can be considered meaningful conversation then urrr.. yeah okay...
anyway, if you aren't going to contribute to a thread, then don't flame. you have done that. as for me flaming you in this thread. i don't think so because the topic is about habitual flamers and i am just stating that you have done this before... i can even pull out the thread you've done it in.. you haven't posted anything in that thread except that one lone flaming post.
and for the age comment, i meant it as in you are 14 (or whatever you are i don't really care) but it shouldn't matter because there are people younger or older who can behave properly in AS and you haven't done that. it's not my problem if you lack english comprehension.
edit: and just to prove myself, goto this closed thread here. tell me exactly how many post in this entire thread you have made... it's one... then tell me what the contents of your post were. it's the example i posted a bit earlier. i rest my case.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=4380&page=1&pp=20
come on Jappi and Dragonz20. No need to get hot-headed and point fingers at each other. It's taking away from the purpose of the thread, which is to discuss habitual flaming and what can be done about it. Deciding who does or does not flame specifically isn't really the forum member's job. It breeds arguments and probably should be left to the people with any real authority here: the moderators. However, if you wish to continue accusing each other of flaming why don't you do it through private messages.
Please, I didn't make this thread to let people argue over who have done what, or to discuss whether they were justified or not. I made this in hopes that people might consider their own role in the forum society. Your intention may certainly not be to start a flamewar, but that might well be the end result if you let tensions gradually build up.
Sometimes it's just better to leave a "discussion" well alone, even if you feel like you haven't said everything you want to. If you fear that your "opponent" might think less of you for "fleeing" the topic, know that almost every sensible member will think higher of you for being the person to show some common sense. Some people just can't be argued with no matter how much in the right you are, and the trick is to know when further discussion is futile.
Even if it feels like a loss to you, having avoided another flamewar will leave the forums a more enjoyable place for everyone else.
NoSanninWa
2004-01-14, 16:42
Hey people! Time to take a moment out for a reality check. All of a sudden people are arguing over who said what. I think that JAppi was just being tactlessly sarcastic as usual. Unfortunately sarcasm is a difficult art on the internet and JAppi's can be hard to understand. (Although I agree that he was pushing for a temp ban with that quote dragonz20 brought up.)
Megane made an interesting point about how arguments turn to flames. JAppi was just pointing out how that related to the current thread. He wasn't saying that Cammie and Megane were flaming each other, just that it could be misconstrued that way. Of course now things really are edging toward flames. We are entering the heated argument part of the cycle.
Nobody has actually leveled any flames here, but if we are going to discuss flaming we should try to recognize the early part of the cycle so that we can stop it. I think that everyone actually agrees on the point, but you are arguing over the exact words. Listen to what AG3 just said and simply ignore the non-existant problem. Don't allow communication to break down like this.
Hey people! Time to take a moment out for a reality check. All of a sudden people are arguing over who said what. I think that JAppi was just being tactlessly sarcastic as usual. Unfortunately sarcasm is a difficult art on the internet and JAppi's can be hard to understand. (Although I agree that he was pushing for a temp ban with that quote dragonz20 brought up.)
Megane made an interesting point about how arguments turn to flames. JAppi was just pointing out how that related to the current thread. He wasn't saying that Cammie and Megane were flaming each other, just that it could be misconstrued that way. Of course now things really are edging toward flames. We are entering the heated argument part of the cycle.
Nobody has actually leveled any flames here, but if we are going to discuss flaming we should try to recognize the early part of the cycle so that we can stop it. I think that everyone actually agrees on the point, but you are arguing over the exact words. Listen to what AG3 just said and simply ignore the non-existant problem. Don't allow communication to break down like this.
Thank you NoSanninWa, that is exactly what I meant. I don't really have anything else to say, but it's nice that atleast one person understood what I meant.
Megane made an interesting point about how arguments turn to flames. JAppi was just pointing out how that related to the current thread. He wasn't saying that Cammie and Megane were flaming each other, just that it could be misconstrued that way.
Actually, when I was reading through that series of posts, that little pending flamewar alarm was going off in my head as well....
Superchop
2004-01-14, 19:23
Flamewars always depend on the people, the main reason is that people always want other people to see things the way they themselves see it (whether it's true or false)...and most of the time they never take into consideration that other people have their own opinions (again...whether it's true or false)....and with this continued stubborness they keep going on and on about the same thing....and it usually doesn't take long for things to take a wrong turn cause of the stubborness to keep on going...it's very rare to see someone give in or just walk away...
Another reason for flamewars is that sometimes people act very sarcastic (kinda like JAppi) and with that sarcasm other people take it the wrong way and always think it's some kind of insult...and with that they immediately have to argue or say something which usually is just as worst as the comment made by the sarcastic individual...now it's a bit hard to tell when a person is being sarcastic with writing but for the most part we can't take everything everyone says seriously...even though it's obvious when someone really isn't sarcastic...but with those we can't go in ranting and raving...if anyone needs to say anything they should just walk in defending the subject at hand like normal with no insults...and if the person keeps on going then it's a lost cause to keep on arguing and the defending person should just step aside...but like i said...the stubbornness kicks in and sometimes people can't just turn away until they change the other person's mind (something that very rarely happens)
*sigh* i guess that's all i wanted to say...there have been a few more flamewars then there have been in the past...but most of the time they're ended very quickly...
dragonz20
2004-01-14, 21:10
If I don't know you or don't know of you or keep track of how you write, how am i suppose to know if someone is being sarcastic or not?... those that are familiar with you may understand but others will read your writing and then believe you actually mean it. i've made that mistake once or twice already and it started a flame war (it was actually w/ superchop and darkzero but we patch it all up). anyway, what i am saying is that if u are gonna be sarcastic, it would be awefully useful to note it somewhere in the post... if not, you can't blame others for misunderstanding you.
in all, i completely agree with everyone's comments and inputs in here. i will try to be more forgiving of others from now on instead of "biting" back right away. i don't usually start the flame wars but i confess that i have not taken steps to avoid them either. i guess i am to blame as much as others. gomen everyone...
Flamewars always depend on the people, the main reason is that people always want other people to see things the way they themselves see it (whether it's true or false)...and most of the time they never take into consideration that other people have their own opinions (again...whether it's true or false)....and with this continued stubborness they keep going on and on about the same thing....and it usually doesn't take long for things to take a wrong turn cause of the stubborness to keep on going...it's very rare to see someone give in or just walk away...
Another reason for flamewars is that sometimes people act very sarcastic (kinda like JAppi) and with that sarcasm other people take it the wrong way and always think it's some kind of insult...and with that they immediately have to argue or say something which usually is just as worst as the comment made by the sarcastic individual...now it's a bit hard to tell when a person is being sarcastic with writing but for the most part we can't take everything everyone says seriously...even though it's obvious when someone really isn't sarcastic...but with those we can't go in ranting and raving...if anyone needs to say anything they should just walk in defending the subject at hand like normal with no insults...and if the person keeps on going then it's a lost cause to keep on arguing and the defending person should just step aside...but like i said...the stubbornness kicks in and sometimes people can't just turn away until they change the other person's mind (something that very rarely happens)
*sigh* i guess that's all i wanted to say...there have been a few more flamewars then there have been in the past...but most of the time they're ended very quickly...
P1RO N1NJ4
2004-01-14, 23:46
Very true AG3... Intelligent conversation is very rare nowadays and I think the maturity factor of this forum would drop a lot of everyone kept flaming each other. Luckily, most of us stay out of these arguments and the topic can go on like it's supposed to. I used to be a moderator for a short-lived anime forum so I know the crap that mods like NoSanninWa go through. I always enjoy coming into these forums to discuss the latest episode or the numerous "what if" threads. Thanks, mods, for your daunting dedication.
Kamui4356
2004-01-15, 01:57
Actually I don't think there's that big of a problem with flames on animesuki yet. It's a lot worse on some other forums. Still as has been mentioned several times already, it seems to be getting worse. Still, a lot of the flame wars come from a conversations that got out of hand. I suggest that when you're engaged in such a disscussion, instead of posting a reply immediatly, type it out, wait a few seconds, then read it again. If you still think it's a good post hit submit, if not either rewrite it or just hit the back button and forget about it entirely. I make a habit of doing this. It won't stop trolls and people who deliberately flame for their own enjoyment, but it should cut down on unintentional flame wars.
edit: Actually, even by doing that I still unintentionally flame on occasion(is there anyone who hasn't?).
FinFangFoom
2004-01-15, 02:46
I have to agree with most of what dragonz20 has said so far. I think the whole "Nobody understands me! I'm sarcastic!!" argument is very lame. If you look at the definition of sarcasm you'll see that in no way can it be considered friendly or good natured. I think most of the frequent sarcastic people (not all) are pretty bad at making it clear when they're joking and when their just being an ass. Personally I try not to ever get involved in flame wars, and have had to delete some pretty nasty responses before I hit the send button, instead I try to just point out when someone is being hypocritical or is out of line. I'm glad I did or I would have laid into some people who turned out to be pretty cool in my opinion. There are a few other regular or semi-regular people on this forum who I really don't like, but would rather keep it to myself than help ruin this forum.
boneyjellyfish
2004-01-15, 03:03
If I don't know you or don't know of you or keep track of how you write, how am i suppose to know if someone is being sarcastic or not?... those that are familiar with you may understand but others will read your writing and then believe you actually mean it. i've made that mistake once or twice already and it started a flame war (it was actually w/ superchop and darkzero but we patch it all up). anyway, what i am saying is that if u are gonna be sarcastic, it would be awefully useful to note it somewhere in the post... if not, you can't blame others for misunderstanding you.
I completely agree with what you've written here. I've had to learn it the hard way myself :\
Superchop
2004-01-15, 07:45
dragonz20 - I agree with you completely but that brings up something i've said...we can't take every post seriously cause it might be someone's sad attempt at being sarcastic or making a joke...
And after being in a few flame wars, with you, p3psi and a couple of others in a ps3 thread (but i dont really think that one is a flame war), those fights being over misunderstood posts and sarcasm, i've learned that for the most part everyone in here is a good person and they dont really like being part of flame wars...it's just that a little spark ignites and all of a sudden their right in the middle...luckily for me those people that i've had a few little disagreements with were nice people and we patched things up rather quickly ending the flame war...but cause of those people i've learned that i can't take everything seriously anymore.
Its so nice to see everyone agreeing finally!
I also would like to apologize to each and everyone of you for any misunderstandings/arguements.
Again Gomen!
Cammie
http://smilies.crowd9.com/kao/otn/pconfetti.gif
Its so nice to see everyone agreeing finally!
Well, at least we've agreed there is some amount of flaming going on, which may or may not be the case with this thread, and that maybe some of us might need to do something about the flaming in general :/
I can't help but feel that we're back at square one...
But I feel that this has been a good example of how a thread can pull out of a nose dive, how heated discussion can turn around and become civilised when it may have been headed in a bad direction before.
I dont understand why you guys say flaming is big in anime suki, i can understand that it is hard for the mods/ admins to keep controll of the forum because i am a mod/ admin on other forums. This forum is not as bad as emulator zone with flaming so you should feel lucky. Also i think that a harsh punishment will not be good because everyone slips up every once in a while, dont deny it because your not perfect. i know myself i am not perfect and alot of you dont know me well because i never use to post here. My only thing i can say is that you can try to get more mods to controll the situation but it is all up to ghd in the end.
I dont understand why you guys say flaming is big in anime suki, i can understand that it is hard for the mods/ admins to keep controll of the forum because i am a mod/ admin on other forums. This forum is not as bad as emulator zone with flaming so you should feel lucky. Also i think that a harsh punishment will not be good because everyone slips up every once in a while, dont deny it because your not perfect. i know myself i am not perfect and alot of you dont know me well because i never use to post here. My only thing i can say is that you can try to get more mods to controll the situation but it is all up to ghd in the end.
You're absolutely right, this forum isn't anywhere near being as bad as some of the other forums out there. And I am sure most people here want to keep it that way. Both the Mods and the long-term members have noticed an increase in flames. When I made this thread, it wasn't the sporadic flame by a few of the members I was most concerned about; those things happen. It was the (as the title implies) HABITUAL flamers I were concerned with. The people who post almost nothing but flames or flamebait.
Remember that the Mods here are very lenient, we do have a lot of freedom here, even if it might not seem like it at times. But that freedom comes with a responsibility, a responsibility which some people seem unable to handle. People who are banned from AnimeSuki have usually done something extremely bad, or shown repetive disregard for the rules in a short space of time. What I was proposing was that the Mods keep a bit closer tab on the members, so they can spot repeating flamers and the like easier. This is, needless to say, a huge undertaking, unless there is a simple way for the Mods to quickly register repeating flamers (kinda like the reputation system). You know, a "three strikes - you're out" kind of thing. Is it doable, or even worth it? A temp ban if you exceed a certain number of (not extremely serious) rule violations within a set period of time can be a fair system, but one that is probably not easily implemented.
And it shouldn't even be necessary to begin with. But if people can't proove themselves worthy of the freedom they actually have...
I think the main thing is that we need more people that can ban, i agree with your give them warnings i think the person should be warned twice and then a permenent ban. There is no real easy way to do this though other then a ip ban and i have not worked with vbullitin much. but the rules in here are relaxed and i think we may come to a point where the rules eventualy are going to have to be harsher. The biggist problem is the lack of respect showen towards others on the internet. therefor if we had more moderation(hint to ghd) and tighter rules maybe there will be less of a ongoing problem.
I can agree that more moderation might be in order, but finding the right people isn't that easy. If you get Mods that can't get along with the majority of the members, you have a real serious problem. Another thing is where the prospective Mods live. A lot of the Mods/Admins here live in Europe, which means that at certain times of the day/night you will have very little Mod attention. Finding people with the proper qualifications in a preferred part of the world isn't that easy. It's better to have too few Mods, but Mods that people can get along with and respect, than having several Mods that a lot of the members can't stand.
*Edit*
And of course, just getting along with people won't necessarily make you a good Mod.
If you don't like someone, the easiest way to ignore them is to add them to your ignore list. Simple, huh?
The flame war quickly dies out because they are muted so you won't have to hear their babble.
Ignore List...I've never used it before. Does it ignore both PM & forum posts?
Yeah, it does. the problem is that most people end up abusing the "quote" function so there's a chance you'll see the flamer's post anyway.
NoSanninWa
2004-01-16, 00:36
And another "failing" of the ignore function is that you aren't allowed to ignore a moderator. :)
And another "failing" of the ignore function is that you aren't allowed to ignore a moderator. :)
Who would ever wanna ignore the mods when they're so amazing?
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