View Full Version : Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll
Two other things to note, from the training scenes that we all (myself included) immediately forgot about during the last three minutes of the episode:
1- Subaru makes STAIRS out of Wing Road. I know she's made platforms before, but that really surprised me. I love how other characters can stand on the roads that she makes, it really sets Subaru's 'flying' apart from the regular hovering of the rest of the characters.
2- Teana's well on her way to busting out with some gun katas. Especially the part with her blocking Subaru's punches and pointing the gun, I'm hoping isn't just gonna be another random training exercise. I wanna see Teana have to fend of a close combat fighter by blocking and shooting like that. EPIC.
The problem is most of us are running on that last 4 mins for we haven't bothered to watch the eyebleeder... yet. (For me at least :p)
She did?! Ok I missed that.
et al Grammaton Cleric! That would really pwn. :D
@dkellis: Nicely phrased, that sums up the arguement neatly. :)
Nightengale
2007-05-20, 23:12
Orange's a bad example as an enemy that would pull that White Devil act...Wait, he's damn good. Since he has no interest in Teana as a subject, he'd bind Subaru and kill Tea, while taking Subaru home for "inspection".
Anyway, Nanoha was a little harsh, but I think she should've acted this way towards them from the very beginning. They weren't just regular trainees, they're actual TSAB soldiers working on frontlines, even if still inexperienced, and any stupid or reckless actions from them will not only endanger themselves, but their teammates and superiors. I blame Nanoha slightly that she never put it into them the "you make one mistake, you die" control of her trained team early on, but aside from that, she's fully justified. It's not like she didn't give Teana a chance, which she totally blew.
Besides, didn't she herself say that the training division she was at is pretty much Spartan too? Makes me wonder how Spartan Nanoha's trainer was...
I hope that Nanoha got legitly 0wned, not by some cheap sneak attack.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-20, 23:21
Orange's a bad example as an enemy that would pull that White Devil act...Wait, he's damn good. Since he has no interest in Teana as a subject, he'd bind Subaru and kill Tea, while taking Subaru home for "inspection".
Anyway, Nanoha was a little harsh, but I think she should've acted this way towards them from the very beginning. They weren't just regular trainees, they're actual TSAB soldiers working on frontlines, even if still inexperienced, and any stupid or reckless actions from them will not only endanger themselves, but their teammates and superiors. I blame Nanoha slightly that she never put it into them the "you make one mistake, you die" control of her trained team early on, but aside from that, she's fully justified. It's not like she didn't give Teana a chance, which she totally blew.
Besides, didn't she herself say that the training division she was at is pretty much Spartan too? Makes me wonder how Spartan Nanoha's trainer was...
I hope that Nanoha got legitly 0wned, not by some cheap sneak attack.
Let us pray that it is so. I don't know how they're gonna pull this one off though. I'm hoping for a good and pleasant surprise.
Avatar_notADV
2007-05-20, 23:21
I definitely read it as something Nanoha did intentionally.
Subaru does something a bit reckless to try to score on Nanoha - okay, she gets blocked, Nanoha says "hey, that's a bit reckless" rather than shooting her down on approach. What Tia tried, though, was way outside the profile. Not just in a "that was crazy" sense, but in a "you forgot why we're out here in the first place, stupid" sense. Nanoha's already delivered at least one speech to Tia about how she's the marksman and everything - going in with the bayonet isn't just opening her up to attack, but it's kind of ignoring what she's supposed to be doing in the first place.
So that's why Nanoha catches the knife in the hand instead of deflecting (come on, she can block Vita being serious from two directions ten years ago, you think she's being overwhelmed HERE?) By taking the cut, Nanoha's driving home the point that Tiana's completely forgotten the purpose of the exercise, and her role in the combat team.
It could have (should have) stopped there, but Tia's got her head up her rear, and decided to keep going. Very, very bad, for several reasons. Nanoha's still the training instructor, so if she says "you're overdoing it", you probably are. Also, Tiana's charging up her big, I-can't-control-it-well attack to shoot at someone who is standing right next to her partner, who if we remember got clobbered just last episode by Tia screwing up. Finally, Tia's obviously leaving herself wide open and attacking without any thought of defense, directly after Nanoha just pointed out that was a bad thing that is going to get her killed.
So Nanoha goes out of her way to smack Tia with her own technique (that wasn't an Axel Shooter) and gives her a big set of bruises. Well, okay, that's her MO, and it's hardly outside of the military envelope either. I also took the Subaru bind as "don't get in the way", though doubtless there's also a "pay attention" aspect too. If Nanoha's doing this specifically to get through to Tia that going all-out with no defense is only a way to join her brother, it's no good if Subaru hops in the way or anything like that - obviously the problem is with Tia herself rather than Subaru and Tia's teamwork.
So next episode, doubtless we'll see a bummed Tia who's depressed, not just because she lost, but because Nanoha unloaded on her; this is a perfect opportunity for Fate (or maybe Vita) to step in and say "join the club", and explain to Tia that when Nanoha does that, it's because the other person is being stupid and not listening to the good sense coming out of Nanoha's mouth. All that put together might be enough to get Tia's head back together - or rather, we can assume that Tia's not going to get drummed out of the unit at this juncture, and so presumably she WILL get her head back together, and this is the obvious way for it to happen after ep 8. Also it opens up a line of inquiry into Nanoha's own past, which offers opportunity for the flashbacks in the preview...
Estavali
2007-05-20, 23:25
Besides, didn't she herself say that the training division she was at is pretty much Spartan too? Makes me wonder how Spartan Nanoha's trainer was...
If you consider all her former opponents as life-combat instructors, I guess that's pretty Spartan to begin with.
And it must be something really hefty, since even RH was damaged as well.
@Avatar_notADV: Sort of like the goalkeeper going up to the front?
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-20, 23:29
Say, I forgot to mention this before, but Teana's brother was a Flight Mage. Anyone know his actual rank?
Gearhead
2007-05-20, 23:29
Consider that her key role models on learning how to teach students how to fight were her father and Kyoya. Japanese sword instruction is NOT at all kind to the pupil. Corporal punishment can be used to correct the form and motion of the pupil, often to the very limits of what the student can physically tolerate... Until they learn the correct way of doing things. Note that Nanoha didn't just let her drop, she lowered her to the ground carefully after introducing her to little tweeting birds via beamspam.
Estavali
2007-05-20, 23:30
They mentioned: "Itou Ku-Ei", no?
Ehhh, that's, like, Captain (Flight)?
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-20, 23:38
They mentioned: "Itou Ku-Ei", no?
Ehhh, that's, like, Captain (Flight)?
Nah, actually Lieutenant. Wow, Teana's brother really ranked up fast huh?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-20, 23:41
Sigh, this is why I hate school on Mondays... No other days has the Thread progress this quickly...
Nah, actually Lieutenant. Wow, Teana's brother really ranked up fast huh?
Well a year in the Nanohaverse is a lot of time to do multa things.
Nightengale
2007-05-20, 23:47
Yup, Lieutenant...I think. I can't remember any rank from the get-go, but being a Captain is mildly ridiculous, since that means Viva outranked Hayate, and he was wearing the same white uniform as Nanoha.
And th Yuuno and Acous bit was nice. So, the three guys are now somewhat friends? Nice. Yuuno'll probably dissapear until the JS related plot comes back, and for the others, well, who knows? Now it looks it going to be more central to the inner circle of Teana-angst along with Nanoha-injury.
Bring on the badass monster that owned Nanoha...please.
Aaron008R
2007-05-20, 23:48
Whooo. Quite the big shocker of an episode here eh? Well, I won't start voicing out any more theories because it would seem that the White Devil scenario has already been discussed well enough. All I can say is that there will surely be a lot of angst and mixed thoughts and feelings next episode. To be honest, I never really expected Teana's arc to be this well-developed.
About the flashback part, I'm thinking along the lines of the possibility of Nanoha getting overconfident by those times. Like the others here, I'd really rather have her beaten straight out rather than a sneak attack with little to no chances of dodging. It goes well to develop the story and gives justifications to how the older cast acts today.
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 00:01
First post in all most a week.... Stupid MTG tourney....
Anyways back to my throughts on the raws
The Ep starts with a clean up, which brings us more ferret.... Damn why can't we do away with him.... and Nanoha's talk with Teana. which seems to end on a good note....
Then we move on to disscusion with Teana's past. Could not get a good hearing on it dueto people talking so i'll update this later
Teana's self training which is later joined by Subaru is kinda expected, however Teana does not seems to be as emo as we are expecting...
Move to mock battle, I can't say anything more other then Dark Nanoha is finally here, and Teana is really emo.....
Just a side note on the firepower of Nanoha with just device limiter release.... Teana is not having a good day. :heh:
Next Ep preview finally finally we are getting the flashback to THAT scene...
That all for now and its time for me catch up
Estavali
2007-05-21, 00:05
Talking about the preview, Tia seems to be arguing with Nanoha about something, while the other three freshies stood aside with a look of apprehension/discomfort. And Nanoha look rather uncomfortable/unhappy herself too.
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 00:13
Talking about the preview, Tia seems to be arguing with Nanoha about something, while the other three freshies stood aside with a look of apprehension/discomfort. And Nanoha look rather uncomfortable/unhappy herself too.
Well it looked less like an argument and more like Teana pleading about something. With all the hair blowing around maybe they are getting ready to head out on the next mission? Could be that Nanoha doesn't feel Teana is capable of handling a mission in her current mental condition and is holding her back. It's all guess work but I felt it was something like that.
Plus Nanoha was looking guilty maybe feeling she was too rough on them. It figures that Nanoha has to get injured in a snowy region, that blood getting plenty of contrast.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 00:16
Talking about the preview, Tia seems to be arguing with Nanoha about something, while the other three freshies stood aside with a look of apprehension/discomfort. And Nanoha look rather uncomfortable/unhappy herself too.
If I may be allowed to crack a joke at this time... :heh:
Teana: WHY AM I THE ONLY GIRL WITH NO MAN IN HER LIFE?! TELL ME!!
Nanoha: Erm...
...But seriously, I believe she'll confront Nanoha as to why she picked her to join RF6 ...
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 00:24
...But seriously, I believe she'll confront Nanoha as to why she picked her to join RF6 ...
As I was just saying to Kha, I'll give this 2 -3 ep eps for EMO Tea issue to be resolved .
Still I really did not expect Nanoha to overkill Teana.... I wonder will Subaru will flare up too...
Village Idiot
2007-05-21, 00:24
If I may be allowed to crack a joke at this time... :heh:
Teana: WHY AM I THE ONLY GIRL WITH NO MAN IN HER LIFE?! TELL ME!!
Nanoha: Erm...
...But seriously, I believe she'll confront Nanoha as to why she picked her to join RF6 ...
Nanoha might have actually been in Teana's brother's unit, or maybe even a former student.
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 00:25
...But seriously, I believe she'll confront Nanoha as to why she picked her to join RF6 ...
Quite likely. I also expect her to snap out of her problem in the field. It may be a bit cliche, but it gets the job done rather nicely.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 00:30
As I was just saying to Kha, I'll give this 2 -3 ep eps for EMO Tea issue to be resolved .
I wouldn't have expected Teana's problem to get this out-of-hand... Once again Nanoha (The series) surprise me by being different.
Still I really did not expect Nanoha to overkill Teana.... I wonder will Subaru will flare up too...
Subaru would definately flare up, being the simpleton she is.
But her problem would be alot easier to fix than Teana's...
Nanoha might have actually been in Teana's brother's unit, or maybe even a former student.
That I won't be surprised.
Just comfirmation, Teana's brother 'died' about 5 years ago, right?
Quite likely. I also expect her to snap out of her problem in the field. It may be a bit cliche, but it gets the job done rather nicely.
Though it would be awkward if she has a long flashback scene while Subaru gets pounded :heh:
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 00:41
Oh what's this? I Geass'd the same person twice?! :D That's right. Kha here!
Just comfirmation, Teana's brother 'died' about 5 years ago, right?
Though it would be awkward if she has a long flashback scene while Subaru gets pounded :heh:
Erm... Where was the mention of that? I don't understand Jap desu kedo...
But that situation does flash me back to some one else. :D
Nightengale
2007-05-21, 00:49
Teana's 10 when Viva died, so 6 years ago.
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 01:00
Teana's 10 when Viva died, so 6 years ago.
Really? I don't remember hearing it in the Ep... so That means its around the time of the airport fire or just before it. That makes me wonder of Teana's bro's death is related the main evil behind the scenes....
Need to wear sunglasses now.... and head protector just incase
Village Idiot
2007-05-21, 01:03
Really? I don't remember hearing it in the Ep... so That means its around the time of the airport fire or just before it. That makes me wonder of Teana's bro's death is related the main evil behind the scenes....
Need to wear sunglasses now.... and head protector just incase
It was mentioned in the StrikerS - Starting Stars manga.
One of the untranslated/scanslated chapters :(
ichibaka
2007-05-21, 01:03
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45695.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45695.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45698.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45698.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45781.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45781.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45782.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45782.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45805.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45805.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45806.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45806.jpg)
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45865.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45865.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45900.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45900.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45907.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45907.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45937.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45937.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45939.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45939.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45944.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45944.jpg)
From Teana's expression and body language, I doubt she's learned the lesson. Nanoha on the other hand seems down, maybe because her message couldn't get through to Tea? Her face just seems so....:thinker: NxF FTW!!!! :naughty:
Now which was the NxF faction again?
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45695.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45695.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45698.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45698.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45781.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45781.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45782.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45782.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45805.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45805.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45806.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45806.jpg)
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From Teana's expression and body language, I doubt she's learned the lesson. Nanoha on the other hand seems down, maybe because her message couldn't get through to Tea? Her face just seems so....:thinker: NxF FTW!!!! :naughty:
Now which was the NxF faction again?
*slaps ichibaka with a harisen* Don't start another war! Please! :D
Yeah well its about time someone takes some time to learn a lesson, which normally is the case. Too many Mary Sue situations already...
blitz1/2
2007-05-21, 01:13
I feel so sorry for Mai Nakahara. Her voiced characters get bashed up a lot this week. (Both Sola 7 and Nanoha StrikerS 8)
LoweGear
2007-05-21, 01:14
*slaps ichibaka with a harisen* Don't start another war! Please! :D
Yeah well its about time someone takes some time to learn a lesson, which normally is the case. Too many Mary Sue situations already...
*preps sniper rifle as deterrent*
Call the shot... I'm all over it
Teana's stubborn personality certainly makes it more likely that it'll more than just harsh discipline to get the message across, especially when your instructor just CrossFire'd you to submission.
Although Nanoha feeling down could be because she's second guessing her actions that day. Probably wishing she had done something else instead of the beatdown she gave Teana.
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 01:20
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45695.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45695.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45698.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45698.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45781.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45781.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45782.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45782.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45805.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45805.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45806.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45806.jpg)
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45865.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45865.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45900.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45900.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45907.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45907.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45937.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45937.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45939.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45939.jpg)http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/th_grab45944.jpg (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/oppaitomanko/ep9_preview/grab45944.jpg)
From Teana's expression and body language, I doubt she's learned the lesson. Nanoha on the other hand seems down, maybe because her message couldn't get through to Tea? Her face just seems so....:thinker: NxF FTW!!!! :naughty:
Now which was the NxF faction again?
Indeed, NxF FTW. We are the Legions joins us to crash the 300. *Gets shot*
Back to proper topic, It is possible that afterwards Nanoha throught it was prehaps not the best way to deal with the situtation, and is facing a revolt of both Teana and Subaru. and is seeking advise from Fate whom seems to grown accustomed to dealing with kids....
LoweGear
2007-05-21, 01:28
Indeed, NxF FTW. We are the Legions joins us to crash the 300. *Gets shot*
Back to proper topic, It is possible that afterwards Nanoha throught it was prehaps not the best way to deal with the situtation, and is facing a revolt of both Teana and Subaru. and is seeking advise from Fate whom seems to grown accustomed to dealing with kids....
*charges rifle*
Anyway, Fate really wouldn't have a problem, since Caro and Elio don't really have the adolescent rebellious streak that Nanoha has to deal with regarding Teana. I'd think that this is the first time Nanoha has encountered somewhat this rebellious in training. And I think all Fate can do is to give Nanoha the encouragement she needs.
blitz1/2
2007-05-21, 01:29
I am guessing in the future, Teana will build up her rage inside and will betray the Bureau when the timing is perfect. I would have done the same thing if I was her.
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 01:32
*preps sniper rifle as deterrent*
Call the shot... I'm all over it
Teana's stubborn personality certainly makes it more likely that it'll more than just harsh discipline to get the message across, especially when your instructor just CrossFire'd you to submission.
Although Nanoha feeling down could be because she's second guessing her actions that day. Probably wishing she had done something else instead of the beatdown she gave Teana.
All the better then. It gives us more development on two fronts. The uncertainties of the several characters is a big draw for me. Also, this should fix some of the doubts of other people who think that the Aces are acting a little bit too perfect right now. It's basically win-win by my standards.:D
Replaced the LQ caps with... well... marginally better. *shrug*
http://www.seiha.org/blog/?p=104
I'm not going to bother re-ripping the 'White Devil Mode' Nanoha vid though, entirely too lazy for 2:30 am.
And I took the whole ending part as
Teana and Subaru were leaning more and more towards pyrrhic tactics with Teana's need to become stronger endangering them more and more. Nanoha chastising Subaru for charging straight at her through her shots supports this. Then Teana, a distance fighter, had Subaru charge -again- straight into the stronger opponent's face so that Teana -might- be able to get a shot off at close range, but charging straight at the enemy twice would be liable to get Subaru at least injured and Teana really has no business (that we've seen) being up close and personal to anybody, so she'd be likely to get injured or killed as well, and Nanoha got ticked and asked them what the hell they were doing, fighting like that and Teana lost her marbles at basically being called a crappy fighter.
That said, the first shot was deserved. The second... pretty sure Nanoha was over the line there against a totally helpless subordinate.
Still, it's nice to see the hero worship gone from their eyes and some tension in the ranks. Although I'm sure Teana will screw up again in not too long and Nanoha will take the shot because of or for her and they'll be all hunky dory again.
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 01:36
I'm not too worried about Subaru. She shouldn't be too hard to convince that was she was doing during that test was foolish. Hopefully she'll quickly understand what Nanoha was attempting to get across.
Teana could be a tougher situation, two episodes in a row we've seen her have some serious problems. This may be the type of student Nanoha hasn't had to deal with. Though with the preview and Fate, it's probably her just feeling she may have been too rough on them.
I still think the second shot was to prove a point. Wake those two up to what the ramifications of fighting like that will be. Think she did a good job of hammering this home. An enemy isn't going to hold back because you ask them not to. Teana isn't seriously hurt, while a rough lesson it was one that they clearly needed to learn.
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 01:38
I am guessing in the future, Teana will build up her rage inside and will betray the Bureau when the timing is perfect. I would have done the same thing if I was her.
I doubt this though, It is Nanoha after all so I guess this phase of development will be either overcome in combat or with flashbacks. Villians joined up with Nanoha sure, Nanoha team goes over to the darkside, other then Nanoha :heh: I really don't see it
LoweGear
2007-05-21, 01:42
I am guessing in the future, Teana will build up her rage inside and will betray the Bureau when the timing is perfect. I would have done the same thing if I was her.
Or perhaps, Teana should just "suck it up" like the rest of the recruits. Going rogue and evil now would seriously betray her wish to become an enforcer.
blitz1/2
2007-05-21, 01:43
Nanoha = new Precia?
Instead of whip, you get Divine bustered!
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 01:48
It's always tough to rise up the ranks. Especially when you betray your organization. The people in charge for some reason look down on betraying your comrades :). Doubt Teana will do anything that reckless, though they will have to help her deal with her troubles. If kindness, and blasting doesn't work they'll need a new approach.
After watching the clip in question
I have to say that I feel that it is mostly Teana's fault since she went berserk and was probably doing things that weren't the intention of the training session. If someone tells you that today is practicing kicking but you have a student punching you all the time, clearly they're going about it the wrong way.
From what I can tell, Nanoha was trying to convince Teana to follow what they had originally intended to do in their training session. She wondered why they would agree with her in the beginning but then go off and do something so reckless in practice. She wonders if her training is wrong in some way. Elio and Fate commented before the fight that Nanoha had been working very hard to watch all the team's training sessions on videos and creating specific training menu's for each individual.
Nanoha then points out that their recklessness would get them hurt. Then Teana goes nuts and proclaims it's because she doesn't want to see anyone else get hurts. She just wants to get as strong as possible as quickly as possible to make sure of that.
Then tries to shoot Nanoha down with an attack that she has dubious control over. Subaru looks down and out shocked by Teana flipping out since she's usually a rather cool and collected individual.
So Nanoha then lets loose an attack on Teana to "Cool her head a bit". And telling Subaru to watch closely.
The second attack I think was uncalled for. Nanoha was clearly trying to knock Teana unconscious but after the first attack, I don't think Teana has the strength to continue attacking...
But we'll never know if Teana was crazy enough to continue attack despite being owned with her own attack thus justifying Nanoha.
Well, nearly 300 posts already. Since I started posting image thread, all I have done in episode threads is striving to catch up current discussion (and fail constantly).
Havent watched this ep, from the posts I read here, is another ep will make me feel sorry for Teana? Poor girl.
FlameSparkZ
2007-05-21, 04:01
Omg, the White Devil as awaken! Run for your lives!!!
Seriously, Teana went a bit too overboard this time, I understant her wanting to be strong and all, but this is too much!
That "Suicide Stab" was crazy! She could have seriously hurt Nanoha.
Then Teana, went berserk AGAIN! But this time a lot worse than the last episode...
Man...that look on Nanoha's face, I haven't seen a look like that since Fuyou Kaede from Shuffle! (the anime).
Nanoha wasn't herself at all whem she "punished" Teana and made Subaru look...indeed the White Devil is back, and worse than ever!
I imagine Subaru's admiration and respect for Nanoha went down a few levels (if not all).
*Sigh*
Everything was going well too...The conversation between Nanoha and Yuuno was cute.
So much for a Teana-emo episode....this was much worse.
Also, It seems we'll finally find out what actually happened to Nanoha many years ago...
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 04:21
Omg, the White Devil as awaken! Run for your lives!!!
Seriously, Teana went a bit too overboard this time, I understant her wanting to be strong and all, but this is too much!
That "Suicide Stab" was crazy! She could have seriously hurt Nanoha.
Then Teana, went berserk AGAIN! But this time a lot worse than the last episode...
Man...that look on Nanoha's face, I haven't seen a look like that since Fuyou Kaede from Shuffle! (the anime).
Nanoha wasn't herself at all whem she "punished" Teana and made Subaru look...indeed the White Devil is back, and worse than ever!
I imagine Subaru's admiration and respect for Nanoha went down a few levels (if not all).
I still get shivers from an angry Nanoha..... I do belive even with all the fan made Matrieal this is the first time Nanoha is truely turns into something akin to "Dark Nanoha"
Nanoha is trying to make a point, and I say she successed only too well, however we need to wait at least until next Ep to see Fate and Hayate's reaction to this....
It is also noted that Nanoha did seemed to encased Teana in a field when falling to prevent her been seriously hurt.
FlameSparkZ
2007-05-21, 04:27
I still get shivers from an angry Nanoha..... I do belive even with all the fan made Matrieal this is the first time Nanoha is truely turns into something akin to "Dark Nanoha"
Nanoha is trying to make a point, and I say she successed only too well, however we need to wait at least until next Ep to see Fate and Hayate's reaction to this....
It is also noted that Nanoha did seemed to encased Teana in a field when falling to prevent her been seriously hurt.
Yeah, I know she was just trying to make a point without using words...but ouch it must have hurt! and with a replica of her own attack too...
I still get shivers from an angry Nanoha..... I do belive even with all the fan made Matrieal this is the first time Nanoha is truely turns into something akin to "Dark Nanoha"
Nanoha is trying to make a point, and I say she successed only too well, however we need to wait at least until next Ep to see Fate and Hayate's reaction to this....
It is also noted that Nanoha did seemed to encased Teana in a field when falling to prevent her been seriously hurt.
If there is any mitigating factor it would be that touch to show that Nanoha hadn't lost it completely. Really, either Hayate or Chrono's going to have plenty of reports to file after the botched operation, the near-miss and finally the training accident.
I insist its an accident for the preview Nanoha is seen to be down presummably due to that action. Unless she's regretting that she's been too light with the girls instead of questioning whether she was using excessive force then I got nothing to say. :heh:
@FlameZ: Sending the same attack back at the caster does a lot to her pride as well, which Teana has too much of btw.
Nah, actually Lieutenant. Wow, Teana's brother really ranked up fast huh?
Um... 一等空尉 ("first class sky lieutenant") is the equivalent of the English Captain as an Air Force rank. 二等陸尉 is First Lieutenant, while 三等空尉 is Second Lieutenant. Oh, BTW, Teana's brother is named Tiida, after the Nissan Tiida (known in the US as the Nissan Versa). Similar to how Teana is named after the Nissan Teana.
Thank you Kona- I mean, Rob! :D
*sips milk green tea while enjoying the company of crickets*
It's so peaceful... Even the grass is growing where bodies once lay. Those gave their lives for the cause will not be forgotten. :)
Oh Yeah!!! The White Devil is back and she's not taking anything but the highest adoration from the newbs. :bow:
Hail Takamichi Nanoha. White Devil of Midichilria!:D
I got shivers watching her and never did I think I'd see a girl give me a feeling like this.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 06:22
well since there wasn't any fansub release of episode 7 last week, i just watched episode 8 on LQ raw on youtube...and DAMN!! OF ALL THE NANOHA EPISODES, THIS ONE REALLY TOPS IT ALL!
first up, the aftermath of episode 7, haven't seen it yet, but judging from what i've been hearing from the episode 7 thread, Teana messed up big time and got yelled at by Vita. Emo Teana and then the comforting from Nanoha...I guess thats the end of Emo Teana...for now.
Then to Yuuno and Fate talking about the lost logia and the drones and scaglietti...and Caro wanting to know from Shari who Yuuno-sensei was...heh Yuuno-sensei...then Nanoha comes back and Fate leaves both of them to talk...and we also get to see Hayate hang out with Acous...
One thing about this episode...there was fanservice!
Then the first night of secret training for Teana. Vice comes in and tells Teana if she will be ok and try not to over do it...and Teana says that she can handle it and she will be fine...(dont really know if they actually said this, but my japanese is somewhat average...)
Then the training sessions and Teana showing off her new skills from the secret training between her and Subaru.
Then the day of the mock battle. Vita, Caro, Elio watch up from a building and Fate soon joins them.
The battle goes pretty smoothly. Teana focusing on ranged attacks and Subaru comes in with her Wing Road technique and getting in close on Nanoha. Then gets deflected off by Nanoha and Raging Heart and thats when phase 2 of Subaru and Teana's plan comes in...it wasn't a good sight for Nanoha to see.
Subaru rushes in and gets in close combat again with Nanoha, trying to distract her while Teana concentrates on her ultimate shot...but it was a mirage...the real Teana is running on Subaru's Wing Road and then summons a blade from Cross Mirage...woah a blade??!!
she comes down to try to stab Nanoha??!, but then Nanoha summons a "mode: release" from RH and thats when the white devil steps in. Nanoha telling both Subaru and Teana that she's been doing the best she can about the training regiments she's been coming up with...Teana cancels the blade and goes to a ranged spot to try her "ultimate break" attack, but Nanoha goes beserk and does "crossfire shot" and blasts Teana with her attack, then restrains Subaru to watch while she does another shot on a defenseless Teana...she collapses and Subaru goes off to see if she's OK...turning back, Subaru's look on her face shows that she would not consider Nanoha as her idol anymore.
Preview of episode 9 shows Teana and Nanoha arguing
and then Nanoha and Fate talking...maybe Nanoha is having second thoughts about what she did to Teana or maybe about her training activities??
and of course, we will finally get to see the "ambush" attack in Nanoha's past...
10/10 for this episode!
but makes me wonder
What will Subaru think of Nanoha now after this?
What the heck made Nanoha turn mad all of a sudden?
Dont they need permission from Chrono or Hayate to release the limiters?
If so, Nanoha just did it so freely...i'm hoping for Chrono in episode 9 to clear up this mess that Nanoha did...
And where did Raging Heart go after Nanoha called for a Mode Release?...casting magic without a device...
But it seems the emo Teana wont be resolved so quickly...I'm thinking that the RF6 crew will only get more complicated as the episodes come...maybe Teana leaving RF6?
10/10 for this episode!
but makes me wonder
What will Subaru think of Nanoha now after this?
What the heck made Nanoha turn mad all of a sudden?
Dont they need permission from Chrono or Hayate to release the limiters?
If so, Nanoha just did it so freely...i'm hoping for Chrono in episode 9 to clear up this mess that Nanoha did...
And where did Raging Heart go after Nanoha called for a Mode Release?...casting magic without a device...
But it seems the emo Teana wont be resolved so quickly...I'm thinking that the RF6 crew will only get more complicated as the episodes come...maybe Teana leaving RF6?
About Nanoha actions towards the end , read the page 4-10 in this thread.There are some good discussion about it earlier.
I doubt mode release is the same as limiter release, it is just probably another form of RH power up.Chrono hold Hayate's limiter,Hayate hold Nanoha and gang.Nanoha has always been able to cast spell without device :), she done it 10 years ago too.
Deathkillz
2007-05-21, 06:28
10/10 for this episode!
but makes me wonder
What will Subaru think of Nanoha now after this?
What the heck made Nanoha turn mad all of a sudden?
Dont they need permission from Chrono or Hayate to release the limiters?
If so, Nanoha just did it so freely...i'm hoping for Chrono in episode 9 to clear up this mess that Nanoha did...
And where did Raging Heart go after Nanoha called for a Mode Release?...casting magic without a device...
But it seems the emo Teana wont be resolved so quickly...I'm thinking that the RF6 crew will only get more complicated as the episodes come...maybe Teana leaving RF6?
1) subaru is going to want revenge!!!!! :rolleyes:
2) white devil mode was triggered by tea's lack of common sense and nanoha's shady past experience with disobedience
3) it was probably just a primary limiter release...being double A rank nanoha could have already locked most of that power up herself as it is not something she would need for everyday life :3
4) i didnt even notice that O.o
and the ep wasnt about emo tea at all! weve all been tricked! :D
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 06:34
from this point on, I thnk it will be about emo Teana and maybe including emo Subaru, damn did she looked pissed after running to see Teana all murdered out...
Teana's lack of common sense, huh, i guess Vice squealed and told Nanoha about their secret training and Teana's problems about getting stronger.
oh yea and another question...after Nanoha fired the second shot, why didn't anyone else step in and stop Nanoha, that shot could have killed Teana...in fact, that was overkill if you ask me...one "crossfire shot" was enough, but restraining Subaru and let her watch Teana take another shot while defenseless...that was uncalled for and i was wondering why no one stepped in...
I guess everyone feared the white devil's presence??...
About Nanoha actions towards the end , read the page 4-10 in this thread.There are some good discussion about it earlier.
I doubt mode release is the same as limiter release, it is just probably another form of RH power up.Chrono hold Hayate's limiter,Hayate hold Nanoha and gang.Nanoha has always been able to cast spell without device :), she done it 10 years ago too.
Correction: Mode Release turned RH back into a jewel. In other words, Nanoha wanted to grab both devices barehanded to drive home her up-coming message. The sadomaso. :uhoh:
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 06:34
1) subaru is going to want revenge!!!!! :rolleyes:
2) white devil mode was triggered by tea's lack of common sense and nanoha's shady past experience with disobedience
3) it was probably just a primary limiter release...being double A rank nanoha could have already locked most of that power up herself as it is not something she would need for everyday life :3
4) i didnt even notice that O.o
and the ep wasnt about emo tea at all! weve all been tricked! :D
Nanoha can hardly say that she is obediant while working with TSAB, look at the reckless act she pulled at season one trying to save Fate from the 6 activated Jewel seeds.
What Kha have pointed out to me durning the day was interesting, that mode release is not a power up, rather its to turn RH into its Jewel form to lessen the attack power prehaps and freeing a hand to block Teana's dagger.
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 06:36
after watching the episode more carefully, i just realised 2 things :
1) Tea's Hair are extremely long, i'm wondering if it isn't a mistake, considering her pigtails.
2) something less random :
this is only my opinion though, but i feel they were much more reckless in episode 4. just compare how Erio rushed to Nanoha with strada (with Caro's speed boost), while Tea was running with a short energy blade)
also, Subaru was attacking absolutely the same way, though she put apparently more strength in ep8
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 06:37
grabbing Teana's blade bare handed...that was so unreal of Nanoha....I guess if anyone snaps, they dont feel any pain at all huh...
Nanoha can hardly say that she is obediant while working with TSAB, look at the reckless act she pulled at season one trying to save Fate from the 6 activated Jewel seeds.
What Kha have pointed out to me durning the day was interesting, that mode release is not a power up, rather its to turn RH into its Jewel form to lessen the attack power prehaps and freeing a hand to block Teana's dagger.
That was youthful innocence, the kind that gives you the sense of invincibility, and it still afflicts the youth of today. But for Nanoha, she has since lost her innocence the hard way, and so rubber bullets for Teana really is going easy on her.
Having said that, even though its unorthodox tough love, I believe I have enough grounds to charge Nanoha for 1) overstepping her duty, 2) risking injury to a fellow serviceperson and 3) conduct unbecoming of a TSAB serviceperson if I want to be nasty. Teana and Subaru are guilty of charges 2 and 3 too, but I'm more likely to press 3 onto the both of them than Nanoha.
@K-hikari: But you must consider that Erio was meant to charge into battle like Subaru and Nanoha was happy then. Each of them were doing their jobs as planned.
Correction: Mode Release turned RH back into a jewel. In other words, Nanoha wanted to grab both devices barehanded to drive home her up-coming message. The sadomaso. :uhoh:
Aha ok thank you :) didn't realise that.
You know everyone keep saying that second shot or w/e shot could have killed Teana but how do we know whether it is actually has a power to kill in the 1st place.It could be very well just had enough power to knock people unconscious :3...Chaos made a good argument about this earlier
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 06:46
but what was Teana's reason to stab Nanoha really....and did Subaru really plan this out with Teana before the mock battle started??
this seems all out of place and I guess Teana really wanted to test Nanoha's limits then huh...
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 06:47
@K-hikari: But you must consider that Erio was meant to charge into battle like Subaru and Nanoha was happy then. Each of them were doing their jobs as planned.
Yes, this is where i can't say anything about Tea's decision, rushing recklessly with a melee attack while she is supposed to be ranged.
on the other hand, i feel a bit funny that Nanoha was commenting Subaru attacks, while she didn't say anything back in EP4 (the amount of strength used doesn't matter with the fact she is rushing like mad, without considering the recoil after the block)
@ultima_rasengan : considering how the gap is abyssal between them, i think Teana wanted to deal substancial damage to nanoha's barrier jacket, just how they did the 4 of them in EP 4.
the dagger type is a good choice : it wasn't really a killing attempt, but the dagger has a better penetration factor (it was required, considering Nanoha's insane strong and thick defense field) and/or teana isn't experimenced enough to pull a larger energy blade
OTOH, when tea lost it, and was ready to shoot with her new attack, she probably wanted to damage nanoha, but wasn't really thinking of the possible injury she might got afterwards
Deathkillz
2007-05-21, 06:48
What Kha have pointed out to me durning the day was interesting, that mode release is not a power up, rather its to turn RH into its Jewel form to lessen the attack power prehaps and freeing a hand to block Teana's dagger.
looking back at that scene it seems that the mode release thing gave nanoha the power to use her magic without the staff itself...its as if RH has become part of nanoha which allowed her to fire though her finger! O.o lol a stange thought came to mind...what if the "release mode" is something similar to an Arrancar's bankai (for those who watch bleach) ~ :heh:
and subaru's scream...Chiwa Saito has some good lungs :heh:
but what was Teana's reason to stab Nanoha really....and did Subaru really plan this out with Teana before the mock battle started??
this seems all out of place and I guess Teana really wanted to test Nanoha's limits then huh...
She treat the mock battle as real fight, that gun-dagger(i refused to call it blade :p ) was meant to do serious damage or even kill.It could penetrate the body defense field.
what if the "release mode" is something similar to an Arrancar's bankai (for those who watch bleach) ~ :heh:
Then that gundam nanoha fanart is coming true :D
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 06:52
She treat the mock battle as real fight, that gun-dagger(i refused to call it blade :p ) was meant to do serious damage or even kill.It could penetrate the body defense field.
woah so Teana was really serious then...the aftermath is what really made my spine tingle...the look at both Nanoha and Subaru's faces...Subaru once idolized Nanoha and Nanoha didn't even snap one bit in any of the season except for now...I wonder how this will all play out in the future episodes...Subaru getting revenge maybe possible, considering that Teana was her friend and Nanoha restraining Subaru to watch the beating of her own friend in front of her, even if Subaru had first taste of what the white devil can do:heh:
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 06:53
She treat the mock battle as real fight, that gun-dagger(i refused to call it blade :p ) was meant to do serious damage or even kill.It could penetrate the body defense field.
It could kill someone as Subaru or any mage with the same or lower level.
But, i can't say she could deal serious damage, due the fact she had to bypass Nanoha's field.
If the attack could kill, Nanoha hands would be in a much worse shape than this.
It's a bit late to say this, but man, the end of this episode really made my day.
Poor Tia, she feels inadequate, screws up at a critical time, only to be chewed on by Vita and then have additional pressure applied by Nanoha, so she tries to prove herself, comes up with a reckless plan to score a hit on Nanoha, endangering her partner and herself, only to be shown that her best effort was weak at best when Nanoha blocks her bare handed and without Raging Heart... Not a lot to get her self esteem up.
Aside from that, I didn't expect to really see Nanoha in full White Devil mode outside of fandom. The second blast had a teaching value, but I just didn't expect her to be that rough with her trainees.
I don't see it being out of line with any regulation, as Fate and Vita didn't seem especially surprised or shocked by this turn of events. Vita even seemed a bit bored, actually.
Also, if you replaced Nanoha and the newbies with male soldiers and combat instructor, you would expect the newbies to be at least knocked out if they did away with the rules, freaked out and endangered their teammates.
It's not a big deal, it just imparted a good dose of reality to the dynamic duo. Showed them the worth of all or nothing plans, and highlighted Nanoha's power.
... Anyway, next episode can't come fast enough. We get the answer to bloody Nanoha at least, and Nanoha probably brroding over her failure to get the rookies to follow her training course. Like many others, I expect the flashback to show some of Nanoha's comrades to get shot down and terminated because of her recklessness.
Lastly, about Tia, we could see her at the beginning of the episode get up saying "Even my brother never divine bustered me!"
Subaru once idolized Nanoha and Nanoha didn't even snap one bit in any of the season except for now...Actually, I found the sequence awfully similar to the scene where YnS tells her Fate is sleeping forever unchanged and Nanoha answers that everyone has to change. It's all there, anger, shrouded eyes, and full power attacks shortly after. From that same scene, Nanoha thought Fate was dead (before Amy confirmed she wasn't) yet she stayed extremelly collected and spoke quietly, like she did in this episode. Hers is a cold cold anger.
here the translation that kari posted earlier , might help to understand nanoha's action in case anyone still confused.
Here's a quick translation of the lines at the end of the ep
As an intro, earlier in the ep when Nanoha asked Teana to walk with her, she said she knew that Vita had already scolded Teana and she could see Teana was reflecting on it. She said she wasn't going to do anything more except ask Teana to promise not to make a similar mistake in future. Teana did promise.
Around this time is a comment from Vita I think that Nanoha is working increadibly hard, in terms of analysing everyone's skills, etc to help them with their trainting. Nanoha's putting all her heart into helping the rookies.
Later in the ep, Teana and Subaru are practicing by themselves for the upcoming mock-battle (2 on 1 against Nanoha). Teana is a bit worried about the battle idea since it's against the rules/their instructions, but Subaru thinks it'll be okay since Nanoha is kind and would understand.
Anyway, Subaru charges towards Nanoha and pins her down. Subaru calls for Teana to attack, and Caro and Erio realise the Teana on the building was a mirage. btw, looks like Nanoha detected (or suspected) Teana approaching before the mirage was released.
Teana: ( While her Barrier is being supressed, her Field can be pierced. Here's my one-shot finish!)
Nanoha (very sadly): Raising Heart, Mode Release.
Raising Heart: Allright.
Fate: Nanoha!
Nanoha: It's strange. What's happened to you two?
Nanoha: I know you're trying hard, but a mock-battle isn't a fight.
[ doesn't really translate directly, but she basically means it's not a real world fight with no rules etc and where the idea is to knock down / kill the opponents. ]
Nanoha: If you're going to pretend to listen during training and then do something like this for the real thing, then did the training have no meaning for you?
Nanoha: C'mon, let's do it properly, like during training.
Nanoha: Okay?
Nanoha: Is what I tell you, is my training, really that wrong?
Cross Mirage: Blade Erase
Teana: I don't want anyone to get hurt again! *** ! So, I want to become stronger!
[ I can't make out all of what she says...]
Nanoha (very sadly): I guess I need to cool your head a bit...
Nanoha: Cross Fire.
Teana: ***
[ not sure what attack. I don't think she's used it before ]
Nanoha: Shoot!
Subaru: Tea!
Subaru: A bind!
Nanoha: Stay still. And watch carefully.
Subaru: Nanoha-san!!
Subaru: Tea!!
Nanoha: This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated".
Title of next ep is: The Important Fact.
[ sounds better in Japanese...]
btw, I presume Nanoha hit Teana with a pure magic attack (no physical damage). ie would only cause Teana mental pain, not injury.
Anyway, I hope this'll help people understand a bit why Nanoha was so sad at the end.
It could kill someone as Subaru or any mage with the same or lower level.
But, i can't say she could deal serious damage, due the fact she had to bypass Nanoha's field.
If the attack could kill, Nanoha hands would be in a much worse shape than this.
Well yeah i guess you are right.It might not do much to Nanoha but i think Nanoha has a problem with Teana killing intent
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 06:57
I think the writers took the consideration of making the "white devil" an actually thing in the Nanoha series.
Now i'm beginning to see the picture, both Teana and Nanoha are the same...both wanted to become stronger because of some life changing event...and are now paying the price for that...
Finally finished reading through all of the posts, phew..
Very good episode, we all got tricked by the previews from last week about emo Tia. Well she does go emo, but we get to see sad/angry Nanoha as well:heh:.
The battle between Nanoha and Subaru/Tia makes alot more sense now after reading thought the translations on the earlier pages.
Having said that, even though its unorthodox tough love, I believe I have enough grounds to charge Nanoha for 1) overstepping her duty, 2) risking injury to a fellow serviceperson and 3) conduct unbecoming of a TSAB serviceperson if I want to be nasty. Teana and Subaru are guilty of charges 2 and 3 too, but I'm more likely to press 3 onto the both of them than Nanoha.
You can try Kha, but i dread to think of having Fate/Hayate being annoyed at you...:heh:
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 07:04
Here's a quick translation of the lines at the end of the ep
As an intro, earlier in the ep when Nanoha asked Teana to walk with her, she said she knew that Vita had already scolded Teana and she could see Teana was reflecting on it. She said she wasn't going to do anything more except ask Teana to promise not to make a similar mistake in future. Teana did promise.
Around this time is a comment from Vita I think that Nanoha is working increadibly hard, in terms of analysing everyone's skills, etc to help them with their trainting. Nanoha's putting all her heart into helping the rookies.
Later in the ep, Teana and Subaru are practicing by themselves for the upcoming mock-battle (2 on 1 against Nanoha). Teana is a bit worried about the battle idea since it's against the rules/their instructions, but Subaru thinks it'll be okay since Nanoha is kind and would understand.
Anyway, Subaru charges towards Nanoha and pins her down. Subaru calls for Teana to attack, and Caro and Erio realise the Teana on the building was a mirage. btw, looks like Nanoha detected (or suspected) Teana approaching before the mirage was released.
Teana: ( While her Barrier is being supressed, her Field can be pierced. Here's my one-shot finish!)
Nanoha (very sadly): Raising Heart, Mode Release.
Raising Heart: Allright.
Fate: Nanoha!
Nanoha: It's strange. What's happened to you two?
Nanoha: I know you're trying hard, but a mock-battle isn't a fight.
[ doesn't really translate directly, but she basically means it's not a real world fight with no rules etc and where the idea is to knock down / kill the opponents. ]
Nanoha: If you're going to pretend to listen during training and then do something like this for the real thing, then did the training have no meaning for you?
Nanoha: C'mon, let's do it properly, like during training.
Nanoha: Okay?
Nanoha: Is what I tell you, is my training, really that wrong?
Cross Mirage: Blade Erase
Teana: I don't want anyone to get hurt again! *** ! So, I want to become stronger!
[ I can't make out all of what she says...]
Nanoha (very sadly): I guess I need to cool your head a bit...
Nanoha: Cross Fire.
Teana: ***
[ not sure what attack. I don't think she's used it before ]
Nanoha: Shoot!
Subaru: Tea!
Subaru: A bind!
Nanoha: Stay still. And watch carefully.
Subaru: Nanoha-san!!
Subaru: Tea!!
Nanoha: This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated".
Title of next ep is: The Important Fact.
[ sounds better in Japanese...]
btw, I presume Nanoha hit Teana with a pure magic attack (no physical damage). ie would only cause Teana mental pain, not injury.
Anyway, I hope this'll help people understand a bit why Nanoha was so sad at the end.
so thats what made Nanoha so pissed/sad at the end...its all because of the way they were acting during this mock battle. well that makes everything all clear now...i thought she did all of that because the ambush made by Teana reminded Nanoha of that incident where she got ambushed also...so she didn't want a repeat of that incident done to her in this mock battle.
maybe theres a connection??
She treat the mock battle as real fight, that gun-dagger(i refused to call it blade :p ) was meant to do serious damage or even kill.It could penetrate the body defense field.
Then that gundam nanoha fanart is coming true :D
Come on, she's new, cut her some slack. :D Get it? Cut? :heh:
Brrrr...
You can try Kha, but i dread to think of having Fate/Hayate being annoyed at you...:heh:
Oh! The Rare Spawn! :D
Of course that was putting it in the way Cpt. Ramius would, using my exp as an MP in NS. Last thing I want is Fate to stop talking to me, if I don't have to worry about a Zamber-sized Plasma Breaker and Ragnarok Breaker first... :heh:
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 07:19
i'm really looking forward to the next episode...we're finally going to get an explaination about the "incident"....but i wonder if Vita or Nanoha will be narrating the event....maybe to teach Teana a lesson about what recklessness can do to you in real missions...
so thats what made Nanoha so pissed/sad at the end...its all because of the way they were acting during this mock battle. well that makes everything all clear now...i thought she did all of that because the ambush made by Teana reminded Nanoha of that incident where she got ambushed also...so she didn't want a repeat of that incident done to her in this mock battle.
maybe theres a connection??
That could be a valid point as well, we'll have to see what happens next episode when we should see Nanoha's massive injury a few years ago explained. (see manga) It could be like others have said that reckless actions much like what Subaru/Tia just pulled in training, contributed to her accident (more like life threatening injurires).
Oh! The Rare Spawn!
Ahaha. I'm trying to rectify that rare status:D.
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 07:52
That could be a valid point as well, we'll have to see what happens next episode when we should see Nanoha's massive injury a few years ago explained. (see manga) It could be like others have said that reckless actions much like what Subaru/Tia just pulled in training, contributed to her accident (more like life threatening injurires).
It is more likely to me that some action that Nanoha have done put others in danger,Thus want to hammer the point in so it does not happen to Tea in battle, rather then snapped due to the resemblance of the incident where nanoha got ambushed, Since it just does not feel like Nanoha we know.... Than again almost no one thought Nanoha will go this far before this....
Ahaha. I'm trying to rectify that rare status:D.
MVP hunting time :D
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 08:05
in the translation for the last few lines in this episode, it almost made it sound like Nanoha wanted Subaru and Teana to "have the intent to kill" in this mock battle. Just like how i was joking around back in the episode 4 thread about Nanoha telling the rookies to come at her with the "intent to kill"...never knew it would turn out to be true in this episode.
we all know that this was unexpected of Nanoha and that this has to do something with the past incident....I dont think she did all of that to Teana just to "glue it to her head" that if she acts recklessly, she will get hurt and stuff...
double direct shots of "Crossfire shot" on a rookie and no one stepped in to stop the second shot, i think thats more than having Teana learn a lesson....
So the RAW came out last night, and today the episode 8 thread looks like an Ork breeding ground. Busy, restless, and growing like mad. So I registered at a Japanese site, and managed to find the RAW.
And damn...
Despite the fact that it was only a scant twenty minutes untill I had to head of to work, my heart was beating in my chest, my eyes were shaking and I was gripping the edge of my bed. I was -dare I say it?- feeling like watching Nanoha and A's again . During the fight, tension and emotions were flying, and I was constantly wondering 'how will this end?' When the preview followed, I actually felt my jaw drop and a huge grin spread across my face. More plot was on the way. Despite the slow start, one thing was certain.
Nanoha was back.
Sooo, my feelings about the training thing. Yes, a little late, but I wanted to post my views on the subject nonetheless:
Nanoha had every right to do what she did. She already tried the friendly instructor aproach, and Tiana still went beserk. Aparently, force was all that would drill through to her. So Nanoha gave Tia exacty what she wanted: A mock battle, with risks involved.
So why do I think Nanoha was right? Quite simple, she is not some combat instructor who teaches children how to defend themselves from thughs on the street. She is training soldiers, people who will fight on the battlefield. People who will not only risk her own lives, but the lives of their comrades as well.
Tiana was a danger, not only to Nanoha, but to the entire Riot Force 6. What if she had gone beserk like that in a mission, and there wasn't one of the captains to bash away a shot? Or multiple ones? She could have hit Subaru, yes, but she could have hit Erio too, or even Caro! Such selfish behaviour will get the people around you killed.
'but the second shot was uncalled for! One shot was enough!'
No, the second shot was necissary. Why? Because Teana aparently wanted to treat this match as if Nanoha was a serious enemy. Fine, but a real enemy would not treat a fight as if it was a mock battle. As nanoha said during the final moments: This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated". In a real battle, Teana's selfish, yes selfish, actions would have gotten them both killed. Killed, as in dead, not living, worse then wounded. She ignored several requests to calm down, preparing instead to shoot regardless of Subaru being in the line of fire, do you really think one hit would be enough? No, she needed to be shown that no matter her personal goals, she was not allowed to endanger the lives of her comrades. Period.
Whew. Amazing episode, its gotten my blood boiling.
kari-no-sugata
2007-05-21, 08:10
It looks likely that Teana's blade attack was doing physical damage - otherwise, Nanoha's hands wouldn't have been bleeding. In addition, she was attacking from above - meaning that if she had hit Nanoha, she would likely have been hit in the head or back. Either could have been fatal.
Elio's attack on Nanoha earlier (in the "try to score a hit in 5 minutes" training) was probably magical damage only, so Nanoha let him suceed.
When Nanoha and Fate were bashing the heck out of each other in ep 11 of the original series, they were only doing magical damage - which is why Fate didn't die from direct hit from Starlight Breaker. When Nanoha blasted Teana in this ep, it seems to have been the same - since Teana didn't seem to suffer any physical damage.
Given that Teana tried to do a potentially lethal attack, ignoring her own promise to Nanoha, ignoring all her training (about how Teana should use her weapons), that it was clearly planned in advance, and all for a mock battle - and then on top of that Teana ignored Nanoha's warning during the battle and become completely irrational... well, I think there's only one conclusion: currently, Teana is unfit for duty.
If that is Nanoha's conclusion too, then the likely result would be that Teana would be banned from normal training and certainly any proper work until she can prove that she has come to her senses. If she can't, then she would have to permanently expelled from TSAB and probably be banned from using magic.
That's how serious Teana's mistakes were.
PS Some might point out that Nanoha disobeyed Lindy in the original series when she teleported out to save Fate. Well, (a) Nanoha wasn't officially part of TSAB then (or even during Ace's AFAIK) and (b) she was doing that to save someone and (c) it wasn't for the sake of her own pride.
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 08:16
PS Some might point out that Nanoha disobeyed Lindy in the original series when she teleported out to save Fate. Well, (a) Nanoha wasn't officially part of TSAB then (or even during Ace's AFAIK) and (b) she was doing that to save someone and (c) it wasn't for the sake of her own pride.
I do understand your point on this, however it does show the point that Nanoha was reckless in her younger days... However that only put herself in danger, rather yourself and everyone around you as you have pointed out...
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 08:18
So the RAW came out last night, and today the episode 8 thread looks like an Ork breeding ground. Busy, restless, and growing like mad. So I registered at a Japanese site, and managed to find the RAW.
And damn...
Despite the fact that it was only a scant twenty minutes untill I had to head of to work, my heart was beating in my chest, my eyes were shaking and I was gripping the edge of my bed. I was -dare I say it?- feeling like watching Nanoha and A's again . During the fight, tension and emotions were flying, and I was constantly wondering 'how will this end?' When the preview followed, I actually felt my jaw drop and a huge grin spread across my face. More plot was on the way. Despite the slow start, one thing was certain.
Nanoha was back.
Sooo, my feelings about the training thing. Yes, a little late, but I wanted to post my views on the subject nonetheless:
Nanoha had every right to do what she did. She already tried the friendly instructor aproach, and Tiana still went beserk. Aparently, force was all that would drill through to her. So Nanoha gave Tia exacty what she wanted: A mock battle, with risks involved.
So why do I think Nanoha was right? Quite simple, she is not some combat instructor who teaches children how to defend themselves from thughs on the street. She is training soldiers, people who will fight on the battlefield. People who will not only risk her own lives, but the lives of their comrades as well.
Tiana was a danger, not only to Nanoha, but to the entire Riot Force 6. What if she had gone beserk like that in a mission, and there wasn't one of the captains to bash away a shot? Or multiple ones? She could have hit Subaru, yes, but she could have hit Erio too, or even Caro! Such selfish behaviour will get the people around you killed.
'but the second shot was uncalled for! One shot was enough!'
No, the second shot was necissary. Why? Because Teana aparently wanted to treat this match as if Nanoha was a serious enemy. Fine, but a real enemy would not treat a fight as if it was a mock battle. As nanoha said during the final moments: This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated". In a real battle, Teana's selfish, yes selfish, actions would have gotten them both killed. Killed, as in dead, not living, worse then wounded. She ignored several requests to calm down, preparing instead to shoot regardless of Subaru being in the line of fire, do you really think one hit would be enough? No, she needed to be shown that no matter her personal goals, she was not allowed to endanger the lives of her comrades. Period.
Whew. Amazing episode, its gotten my blood boiling.
those are reasonable points in this episode and i guess we all forgot that Nanoha IS TRAINING SOLDIERS...so it was necessary for Nanoha to go all full force on Teana and also to make Subaru watch as such reckless mistake like what Teana did, could happen to anyone in the force...
and i guess the physical damage of Teana's blade signaled to Nanoha that this was not just a mock battle anymore...but more of a simulated battle with a real powerful enemy...and i guess thats how serious both Nanoha and Teana were in this episode with the "intent to kill" all in both Nanoha and Teana's heads.
All in all though, i still believe Nanoha snapping could have been connected through that incident...this Nanoha we just witnessed was far more brutal than what she had done in any of the seasons.
And yes, this was an episode that made my heart beat so fast and my blood boil also, as watching Nanoha blast the living daylights out of Teana, made me want to just yell out "STOP" also alongside with Subaru:heh:
*sigh* Ok people, time to interject a note of rationality here.
First, some verifiable facts:
1) Tiana's a B-ranked mage, right? So why do you think that after Nanoha's first attack hit, with RH's limiter shut off, Tiana was not only still conscious, but still STANDING?
With Nanoha's proven strength, if she had really been "going berzerk" on Tiana like many of you have suggested, she'd have been at least out cold and probably half way into the next zip code. The only possible explanation I can see is that the power of that shot was absolutely, precisely measured by Nanoha.
And that would explain why she took RH's limiter off - not to have more power, but more CONTROL. It's a lot harder to precisely control something - anything - if it's going at nearly full power than if it's operating at a mid- or low-range level.
2) Look at Tiana's body when she's falling after the second shot and about to hit the Wing Road. There's a pink glow around her.
Tiana's magic is yellow, and Subaru's is blue; only Nanoha's magic uses pink. So what's happening? Nanoha is catching Tiana so she doesn't hit too hard, which is consistant with how Nanoha's behaviour has been depicted from episode 1 of the first series until now. If Nanoha was going postal on Tiana, why take that kind of care to keep her from being injured afterwards?
3) It has been noted by some that the rest of Div 6 was standing around calmly watching all this and didn't rush out saying something like, "OMG, Nanoha's lost it!" Why?
Because they know AND TRUST Nanoha after being around her for so long.
So here's my point: the accusations against Nanoha that she's "gone too far" and needs to be court-martialed or something are unrealistic. Tiana's behaviour after Cross Mirage put away the blade - screaming at the top of her lungs, crying, powering up for another shot - showed Nanoha that she was too emotionally overwraught to listen to any words. So Nanoha demonstrated the consequences of acting so recklessly in a way Tiana couldn't deny, ignore or forget.
That's a method that's been in use in army boot camps for literally millenia - bruises sometimes teach more effectively than logic. And despite how flashy and impressive-LOOKING those attacks Nanoha threw were, Tiana is only unconscious and bruised - nothing more.
EDIT: And in the time it took me to type all that, others made similar points. :(
All in all though, i still believe Nanoha snapping could have been connected through that incident...this Nanoha we just witnessed was far more brutal than what she had done in any of the seasons.Agreed. It's also interesting to note that of the onlookers, Vita seemed the most composed. Her serious expression indicates to me that she regretted the outcome, but believed it was necessary.
The fact that Vita was also heavily involved in the prior incident strongly suggests that something about it influenced both her and Nanoha's views on this.
I don't think "snapped" is really an adequate description of how Nanoha handled this, though... her two blasts and their effects were clearly measured with customary precision. Nanoha delivered her lesson to Tea in a highly measured way, even down to the way she broke Tea's fall and settled her gently on the Wing Road afterwards. If Nanoha had really snapped, there would have been only one shot, and after that a cleanup crew would be required to find all Tea's pieces.
(edit: Looks like you beat me to the punch on that particular point, Loner. Guess you're not the only one who needs to type faster. :p Just one thing, though - it's already been pointed out that "Mode Release" actually isn't a limiter release. Nanoha simply reverted Raising Heart from staff to necklace form in order to free both her hands for close combat.)
To me, though, that was probably the biggest surprise of all - that gentle, warmhearted Nanoha could mete out such a coldly calculated punishment to one of her trainees. It looks like experience and responsibility are weighing heavily on our heroine's shoulders.
I would also like to clarify for the 4th time that Nanoha did NOT release the limiter on RH but SEALED the device into its JEWEL FORM. As much as we know Nanoha is THE White Devil, and that "Mode Release" sounds like "Limiter Release", can we PLEASE not let it color our vision, for what RH did was shrink into the JEWEL FORM?
Just one thing, though - it's already been pointed out that "Mode Release" actually isn't a limiter release. Nanoha simply reverted Raising Heart from staff to necklace form in order to free both her hands for close combat.)
Gah. That'll teach me not to read the entire thread through no matter how many pages have sprung up since last evening... :bash:
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-05-21, 08:49
*sigh* Ok people, time to interject a note of rationality here.
First, some verifiable facts:
1) Tiana's a B-ranked mage, right? So why do you think that after Nanoha's first attack hit, with RH's limiter shut off, Tiana was not only still conscious, but still STANDING?
With Nanoha's proven strength, if she had really been "going berzerk" on Tiana like many of you have suggested, she'd have been at least out cold and probably half way into the next zip code. The only possible explanation I can see is that the power of that shot was absolutely, precisely measured by Nanoha.
And that would explain why she took RH's limiter off - not to have more power, but more CONTROL. It's a lot harder to precisely control something - anything - if it's going at nearly full power than if it's operating at a mid- or low-range level.
2) Look at Tiana's body when she's falling after the second shot and about to hit the Wing Road. There's a pink glow around her.
Tiana's magic is yellow, and Subaru's is blue; only Nanoha's magic uses pink. So what's happening? Nanoha is catching Tiana so she doesn't hit too hard, which is consistant with how Nanoha's behaviour has been depicted from episode 1 of the first series until now. If Nanoha was going postal on Tiana, why take that kind of care to keep her from being injured afterwards?
3) It has been noted by some that the rest of Div 6 was standing around calmly watching all this and didn't rush out saying something like, "OMG, Nanoha's lost it!" Why?
Because they know AND TRUST Nanoha after being around her for so long.
So here's my point: the accusations against Nanoha that she's "gone too far" and needs to be court-martialed or something are unrealistic. Tiana's behaviour after Cross Mirage put away the blade - screaming at the top of her lungs, crying, powering up for another shot - showed Nanoha that she was too emotionally overwraught to listen to any words. So Nanoha demonstrated the consequences of acting so recklessly in a way Tiana couldn't deny, ignore or forget.
That's a method that's been in use in army boot camps for literally millenia - bruises sometimes teach more effectively than logic. And despite how flashy and impressive-LOOKING those attacks Nanoha threw were, Tiana is only unconscious and bruised - nothing more.
EDIT: And in the time it took me to type all that, others made similar points. :(
oh wells, i will admit defeat :(... those are all good points...all valid and true, its just that we all missed those points because most of us were clouded by the vision of the white devil form of Nanoha...
Overreacted to what happened in this episode?? Yes, i missed the fact that Nanoha was still in control of all her shots and if she wasn't, Teana would not even be there after the first shot...plus the pink glow, after re-watching that scene, it is Nanoha breaking her fall...damn i guess i'll just squash my theory about Nanoha "breaking out" because of the past incident...
and i'll take it back about RH breaking the limiter...Nanoha just did that to stop both Teana and Subaru's attacks on her...
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 08:54
oh wells, i will admit defeat :(... those are all good points...all valid and true, its just that we all missed those points because most of us were clouded by the vision of the white devil form of Nanoha...
Overreacted to what happened in this episode?? Yes, i missed the fact that Nanoha was still in control of all her shots and if she wasn't, Teana would not even be there after the first shot...plus the pink glow, after re-watching that scene, it is Nanoha breaking her fall...damn i guess i'll just squash my theory about Nanoha "breaking out" because of the past incident...
While a fully snapped White Devil is nice and all, and for some reason I can see it happen in StrikerS, It is too early for that atm. Makes me wonder how will the producer's link this event with the flashback for the next Ep. Since I doubt after this Subaru and Teana will be wanting nothing to do with Nanoha for a while so it may leave Vita to tell the rookies the story.... It will be good if they can wrap it all up in Ep 9 but I got feeling this may carry on until the mid boss fight....
Just a sidenote at how amazingly on topic forum has been :heh:
those are all good points...all valid and true, its just that we all missed those points because most of us were clouded by the vision of the white devil form of Nanoha...
Hmmm... perhaps in the near future we'll see a response from Nanoha on this subject...
A knock is heard on the door of a certain dojinshi artist...
Artist: Hello-? ...T-T-T-Tak-kamatchi... san?!?
Nanoha: Excuse me for visiting without warning, but I need to... discuss... the effects your work is having...
Raising Heart: Set up.
Oh My God, 320 posts while I was away, and I had to go through all of them so I could cover what's not covered...
(Not to mention that my PeerCast freaked out so I couldn't get to watch the Ep real-time last night... :frustrated:)
Eh, well, it's already even more well covered than Ep7, now where would I go? :heh:
First, anyone remember the "Instructor Division's motto" Nanoha told awhile back? (Nightengale did, apparently)
Nanoha did exactly what she said back in Ep6, kicking the crap out of stubborn cadet so they'd learn faster than piling up minor scoldings on them...
(Thanks to the fact that there's Magic-Damage settings, one can "teach" them without any actual harm)
If that's how Instructor Division's proper way of doing thing, it would be natural Nanoha received some in her past too. :uhoh:
I guess many people are too focused on her recklessness, but there's one more important thing behind that lesson;
Teana is supposedly the Center Guard - suppressive firing from middle of ally, just as "You're sorrounded by your ally, you're not fighting alone" Nanoha said in first part of Ep8.
Yes, she IS reminded what she's supposed to do by Nanoha in first part, and what she conjured up was...
The Center Guard, running behind the enemy, and do melee.
Teana concluded herself that "sharpshooting has it's limit, I must have more trick" - she selfishly put limit to her own job, despite the fact that she's still under training of THAT, which Nanoha's been planning selflessly over night.
Put in short, not only she acted recklessly in fighting practise, she'd been offending Nanoha while all through her training... blindedly.
That makes two factor for two "lessons", reckless behavior and ignoring supposed instructor.
Oh well, too much of Tia hammering now, I know her desire is quite understandable too...
As far as I've read, her brother's death hasn't covered up in detail, so I'd do that myself.Tiida Lanster, 21yrs old, Flight Captain of Midchilda Capital Flight Team, was KIA-ed while trying to arrest a criminal mage on the loose, when Tia was 10.
The criminal was injured in fight too, and was arrested shortly after by Ground Troops that were called in for support.
Upon his death, his superior in TSAB gave out comments like
"It's such a failure as a member of Capital Flight Team to let criminal ran even after he cornered him once, he should've arrested him even if he'd dead." or
"A mage that's not capable of completing one's mission is...(Subaru decides not to say any further, guess what that Superior said.)"
(According to Hayate, some disputes followed over these comments within high-ups afterwards)
Teana was already devastated by his brother's death, but on top of that, his superior commented as if he was such a useless.
That's why she's determined to gain more power; to prove that the "Bullet of Lanster" he taught her was not a useless magic, and to succeed his dream of becoming a TSAB Enforcer.
(Speaking of which, he was one brilliant elite as being a Flight Captain at age of 21, yet he still could not become a Enforcer... WTF goes for Chrono and Fate)Hmm, that's all I could think up right now, surely that White Devil sequence was shocking for me too... very shocking, indeed.
The preview says we finally got to know one of our most anticipated question, so it'll be another long week from now on.
One other interesting trivia point - Nanoha's chosen method of stopping Tea's backstab seems to have been to cast levitation magic on her (hence the pink field surrounding Tea), thus halting her descent.
After Nanoha knocked Tea out, she used the same magic to break her fall; hence we know it doesn't require direct contact. So it seems that Nanoha actually didn't need to cut her fingers by grasping Tea's blade, but did it anyway to emphasise her point. :twitch:
Yep, the new White Devil is definitely 100% scarier... :heh:
(One other thing: the blood on Nanoha's fingers was completely gone less than one minute later, when she pointed her right hand at Tea to activate Crossfire Shoot. An animation mistake, or just a really surreptitious Band-Aid spell?)
It looks likely that Teana's blade attack was doing physical damage - otherwise, Nanoha's hands wouldn't have been bleeding. In addition, she was attacking from above - meaning that if she had hit Nanoha, she would likely have been hit in the head or back. Either could have been fatal.
Elio's attack on Nanoha earlier (in the "try to score a hit in 5 minutes" training) was probably magical damage only, so Nanoha let him suceed.
When Nanoha and Fate were bashing the heck out of each other in ep 11 of the original series, they were only doing magical damage - which is why Fate didn't die from direct hit from Starlight Breaker. When Nanoha blasted Teana in this ep, it seems to have been the same - since Teana didn't seem to suffer any physical damage.
Considering the level of damage a Starlight Breaker can do, I wouldn't be saying that Magical Damage is really 'safe'. I would put it more like 'being able to control the damage output', kinda like loading rubber bullets in a gun instead if real ones during practice. You can control wether you want to kill someone or merely wound them.
All in all though, i still believe Nanoha snapping could have been connected through that incident...this Nanoha we just witnessed was far more brutal than what she had done in any of the seasons.
Oh you won't hear me deny that Nanoha blasting Tea and the blood incident were related.
A question that may have been answered:
Why didn't Nanoha use a Bind on Teana?
Deathkillz
2007-05-21, 09:22
So it seems that Nanoha actually didn't need to cut her fingers by grasping Tea's blade, but did it anyway to emphasise her point. :twitch:
Yep, the new White Devil is definitely 100% scarier... :heh:
(One other thing: the blood on Nanoha's fingers was completely gone less than one minute later, when she pointed her right hand at Tea to activate Crossfire Shoot. An animation mistake, or just a really surreptitious Band-Aid spell?)
its psycho warfare! :eyespin: shes probably trying to show tea no baka that it will do damage if that had connected...nanoha isnt as invincible as you think and she can get injure if you use that kind of unrestricted attack...
and that would be haxx speed heal from nanoha XD
A question that may have been answered:
Why didn't Nanoha use a Bind on Teana?
because she was baka enough to attack again...hence she needed pain! :eyebrow:
Why didn't Nanoha use a Bind on Teana?Nanoha was deliberately teaching Teana a lesson.
Whether it was a good idea or not... well, I suppose we'll see in a week's time.
Why didn't Nanoha use a Bind on Teana?At that time, Teana was on such a overdrive that she wouldn't have calmed down even if she was bound.
As much as I hate to say, I even think she might have... broken up if she's left emo and bound.
In such case, best method is to K.O, use Reset Switch.
People sometimes need such action, be it in brutal way or by medicine.
Edit: Yipes, quatriple answers.
There is one thing I've come to hate about Yuuno in this episode: His new hairstyle. Long hair does not suit Yuuno.
There is one thing I've come to hate about Yuuno in this episode: His new hairstyle. Long hair does not suit Yuuno.I wonder if we'll see Ferret Mode again in StrikerS. :D
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 09:38
At that time, Teana was on such a overdrive that she wouldn't have calmed down even if she was bound.
As much as I hate to say, I even think she might have... broken up if she's left emo and bound.
In such case, best method is to K.O, use Reset Switch.
People sometimes need such action, be it in brutal way or by medicine.
Completely agreed. Even when restrained, people are still capable of doing harm to themselves or to others. I've seen some situations with this kind of people in them. Believe me, its in no way a pretty sight.
A question that may have been answered:
Why didn't Nanoha use a Bind on Teana?
1) You bind Teana, and you don't shut her up. She'll be stood there, stewing, ranting, raving and getting angrier, more hysterical and more irrational by the second. In many cases, the only way to stop someone not in control of themselves is to put them down.
2) You bind Teana while she's off her rocker, and there's a good chance she'll free herself while your back is turned and try to attack again.
Nanoha attacking twice with Cross Shift was fair and necessary in my opinion. As many have stated before, the use of force in many military and martial arts training exercises is necessary to correct form and discipline. And in this case, to correct someone who had been disobeying safety rules and procedures at least twice in the past. Now had Nanoha chose to bind before the second attack, that wouldn't be fair, it would be more... evil.
She's a cold and calculated one, that Nanoha. But the only way to be the Ace of the training division is to be exactly that, cold and calculated. Being sweet, gentle and forgiving of mistakes will only get you so far.
EDIT: One thing I forgot to add was regarding the use of two shots. Some have already commented on her controlled and measured use of two shots, one to stun, the other to knock out. My opinion is that she could have quite easily wiped out Teana with just one shot, but instead chose to stun first, to keep her conscious enough to witness the second shot incoming: "this is what you get if you act reckless, in training or in real situations". Driving the point home with a sledgehammer.
EDIT 2: Spelling. Grr.
It's quite plain that Nanoha was deliberately teaching Teana a lesson.
Whether it was a good idea or not... well, I suppose we'll see in a week's time.
Yeah, I suppose the main thing which prevents me from seeing Nanoha's actions as being regulation-correct is this bit: was the second shot considered "minimum necessary force"?
Nanoha showed that she could easily slap a Bind on Subaru. (And Fate, and Vita...) Was there a need to shoot Teana that second time, or could Nanoha just use a Bind to restrain Teana in order to "let her head cool off"?
I'm not arguing whether Nanoha wanted to send Teana a message. I'm mostly uncertain about whether this message was according to regulations, or if she's going to get into trouble over this. (Or supposed to, anyway.) I'm not even that concerned about whether Nanoha is going to see any consequences from this (onscreen or offscreen). It's mostly a sort of personal vindication kind of thing.
I doubt that the regulations would allow for what Nanoha did, precisely because of what's causing this controversy: the risk that the instructor would let her personal feelings get into the on-the-spot punishment.
Even if the mock-battle called for the impression of "shot down and terminated", Subaru was considered so after the Bind. The second shot at Teana just looked vindictive by comparison, since Nanoha could have used the first shot to stun Teana (like she did), Bind Subaru, fly over to Bind Teana, and then called the training over. (Or called in extra support to restrain Teana if needed.)
If nothing else, letting Subaru see Teana getting shot when helpless has to be considered "cruel and unusual", since Teana going berserk isn't exactly Subaru's fault. Not only am I calling that second shot in question, I'm also challenging Nanoha's "watch this" to Subaru. If she really needed that second shot to take care of Teana, I don't think she's supposed to turn it into an object lesson as well.
Of course, I'm still kind of confused about why none of these tendencies on either Teana's or Nanoha's parts had shown up prior, even offscreen but still causing comment, during the various training montages in this episode or previous ones.
Estavali
2007-05-21, 09:47
A random comment, but I believe Nanoha could have finished Tia with just one shot alone albeit a more powerful one (like, for example, a RH-less Divine Buster or such).
My guess as to why she didn't is that
a) she's trying to avoid too much unneccessary pain on Tia (magical damage, yes, but it still hurts, which is why Fate looked so horrified when she became SLB's first official victim);
b) it's to make her point (which ever it is, choose from dkellis' list some pages back) more "pronounced", mostly to Subaru perhaps.
Add-on:
@dkellis: I wouldn't hold Subaru totally clean for Tia's situation. If what I've read here is correct, Tia was the one who had apprehensions about trying the combo on Nanoha.
Subaru was the one who convinced her to go with it, without considering the consequences, thinking that Nanoha would just let them off as usual.
And I have no doubt that Nanoha knows that whatever these two come up with is agreed by both parties beforehand. In short, if the mock battle was a violation, Subaru is just as guilty of it as Tia was.
Edited: Urgh, by the time this add-on goes out, you guys would have gone on far in front of me again...
since Teana going berserk isn't exactly Subaru's fault.Not exactly.
Subaru should have known that she's doing something wrong, helping Teana train herself exact opposite to what she's supposed to do, as Center Guard.
Yet she still helped Teana, knowing what her intention is and where they're going to.
So, in a way, Subaru helped Teana's going berserk.
Edit:
@Estavali - Don't worry, you beat me to it :p
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 09:54
Well, it would seem that the reason of shooting Teana twice seem to have been resolved. Now onto why Subaru was made to watch. It's a little embarrassing but I didn't really get any military training. But as far as I understand, the punishments given by higher-ranking officers for insubordination are in no way kept secret from the rest of the soldiers. (Remember that the two kids were also watching) I think the bind was for stopping Subaru from trying to jump in and take the shot.
If nothing else, letting Subaru see Teana getting shot when helpless has to be considered "cruel and unusual", since Teana going berserk isn't exactly Subaru's fault. Not only am I calling that second shot in question, I'm also challenging Nanoha's "watch this" to Subaru. If she really needed that second shot to take care of Teana, I don't think she's supposed to turn it into an object lesson as well.Nanoha would have observed that the duo's extreme tactics were clearly preplanned between the two of them, so I suppose that's why she included Subaru in the "lesson."
There's no way Nanoha would've needed two shots to handle Teana. If she wanted to do it in one, Divine Buster or Starlight Breaker would've done the job without fuss. As it was, the first shot got Teana's attention; the second one told her (and Subaru) just how serious Nanoha was - i.e. it was entirely an object lesson. Whether it was justified depends on the observer's opinion; whether it was successful in getting Nanoha's point across, we don't know yet.
As for regulations... well, the TSAB clearly operates under fewer constraints than any present-day military. They've got no problem with risking the lives of primary school-aged children in battle; what's a little corporal punishment compared to that?
Estavali
2007-05-21, 09:56
Well, it would seem that the reason of shooting Teana twice seem to have been resolved. Now onto why Subaru was made to watch. It's a little embarrassing but I didn't really get any military training. But as far as I understand, the punishments given by higher-ranking officers for insubordination are in no way kept secret from the rest of the soldiers. (Remember that the two kids were also watching) I think the bind was for stopping Subaru from trying to jump in and take the shot.
Perhaps. Or perhaps it's to let Subaru feel how it's like to see your closest friend killed before you, and be unable to do anything to prevent it.
Perhaps. Or perhaps it's to let Subaru feel how it's like to see your closest friend killed before you, and be unable to do anything to prevent it.Or it's just that Nanoha thought it's partly Subaru's responsibility that Teana had to be "calmed down", so she got to watch it too.
Fair enough. I wouldn't say I'm a convert, but I'm willing to give Nanoha the benefit of doubt now. I'm still not convinced that Nanoha was acting in the Best/Only Possible Manner, but it's not like anyone will always know the perfect resolution to every scenario.
I will now agree that Nanoha acted the way she thought was best at the time, whether or not influenced by her own personal emotions. This is a charge we can lay at the feet of every party involved: Nanoha, Subaru, Teana, and everyone watching from a distance.
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 10:02
Perhaps. Or perhaps it's to let Subaru feel how it's like to see your closest friend killed before you, and be unable to do anything to prevent it.
Yeah. Maybe that too. But from what were shown of Subaru so far, she'll be taking the lesson to heart sooner or later. I'm more concerned about Teana learning her lesson after the punishment. The caps for the next episode weren't too encouraging about the desired result. We'll also get to see Nanoha having some second thoughts about her methods (perhaps). In any case, were in for quite a development episode next week.
Perhaps. Or perhaps it's to let Subaru feel how it's like to see your closest friend killed before you, and be unable to do anything to prevent it.
Just like what almost happened to Vita and Nanoha.
Links to the incident are becoming more and more aparant.
I suppose one reason why I'm taking Nanoha's actions a bit more viscerally than I really should is because I'm still kind of stuck on the vaguely magical-girl feel of the first season and A's. For those not familiar with my posting style, this is me being really, completely, utterly upset at a plot development. Not angry, but more sad and confused. Less "This sucks! This should never have happened and the producers were stupid for making it so!" but more of "But... why? Why? I don't understand this! How could this have happened?"
In my view, we have Nanoha, a basically cheerful girl who tries her best in everything she does and has a good view of everyone she meets, turn into an aloof instructor type (at age nineteen) who is willing to turn punishments into object lessons; to quote Lear, "a child so young and so ungentle". I suppose my illusions of how Nanoha was were shattered just as Subaru's was.
This is like watching Sakura (from Card Captor Sakura) use the Clow Cards (or Sakura Cards, if you prefer) to stop an evil (or misguided) magician, not by simply restraining him, but by restraining him, and then making him watch as she destroys his life's works and everything else he holds dear. It may not be evil, per se, but it's just not what I expected.
If Nanoha truly had to send a message to Teana and/or Subaru, I'd have expected that she would tell them what that message was, clearly and directly, even at the time of the smackdown. As it is, we have to guess, because Nanoha went Dark Mode and left them with relatively cryptic words that don't actually say anything directly.
Something happened in those ten years to change Nanoha, so I tell myself. I suppose this is because I'm not willing to accept that Nanoha turned into someone like this just because she grew up; a change wrought not by events, but by time.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 10:27
You can TRY talking to Teana back then, but make sure you can be heard over the barriaging crossfire(s)...
Will Smith: "You want to talk?! Well go ahead!"
*Gun shots...*
"They can't hear you, cause they're still shooting at you!!"
I suppose one reason why I'm taking Nanoha's actions a bit more viscerally than I really should is because I'm still kind of stuck on the vaguely magical-girl feel of the first season and A's. For those not familiar with my posting style, this is me being really, completely, utterly upset at a plot development. Not angry, but more sad and confused. Less "This sucks! This should never have happened and the producers were stupid for making it so!" but more of "But... why? Why? I don't understand this! How could this have happened?"
Ahh, in that case you will be stuck with that agony for a week, because right now we can only speculate on the 'why'
However, I have no doupt that it is linked to the event depicted right below my post. As to what happened there, which would explain the why, we will have to wait a week.
If Nanoha truly had to send a message to Teana and/or Subaru, I'd have expected that she would tell them what that message was, clearly and directly, even at the time of the smackdown. As it is, we have to guess, because Nanoha went Dark Mode and left them with relatively cryptic words that don't actually say anything directly.
She tried to, she even talked one-on-one with Tiana. It didn't work. And since Subaru is too stuborn to listen to words, and learns through experience (as anyone can see) that is the best way for them to learn.
No wait, let me correct that. It's certainly not the best way, but it is the safest. The best way would be to learn the lesson of the battlefield, however that takes with it the risk of fatallity, which is something Nanoha does not want.
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 10:29
I suppose one reason why I'm taking Nanoha's actions a bit more viscerally than I really should is because I'm still kind of stuck on the vaguely magical-girl feel of the first season and A's. For those not familiar with my posting style, this is me being really, completely, utterly upset at a plot development. Not angry, but more sad and confused. Less "This sucks! This should never have happened and the producers were stupid for making it so!" but more of "But... why? Why? I don't understand this! How could this have happened?"
In my view, we have Nanoha, a basically cheerful girl who tries her best in everything she does and has a good view of everyone she meets, turn into an aloof instructor type (at age nineteen) who is willing to turn punishments into object lessons; to quote Lear, "a child so young and so ungentle". I suppose my illusions of how Nanoha was were shattered just as Subaru's was.
This is like watching Sakura (from Card Captor Sakura) use the Clow Cards (or Sakura Cards, if you prefer) to stop an evil (or misguided) magician, not by simply restraining him, but by restraining him, and then making him watch as she destroys his life's works and everything else he holds dear. It may not be evil, per se, but it's just not what I expected.
If Nanoha truly had to send a message to Teana and/or Subaru, I'd have expected that she would tell them what that message was, clearly and directly, even at the time of the smackdown. As it is, we have to guess, because Nanoha went Dark Mode and left them with relatively cryptic words that don't actually say anything directly.
Something happened in those ten years to change Nanoha, so I tell myself. I suppose this is because I'm not willing to accept that Nanoha turned into someone like this just because she grew up; a change wrought not by events, but by time.
Hmm. More on the image then? Well, I can sympathize with your pain. Like many other people, I sometimes still get the wistful feeling that maybe I would prefer it if the Aces were still younger than what they are now. I would have gladly welcomed more development from the Aces; more so if it was in the puberty/pre-puberty stage. But from what were given now, I'm just treating it as a different sort of present from what I was expecting, bit still a very likable present, nonetheless.
Estavali
2007-05-21, 10:31
I suppose one reason why I'm taking Nanoha's actions a bit more viscerally than I really should is because I'm still kind of stuck on the vaguely magical-girl feel of the first season and A's. For those not familiar with my posting style, this is me being really, completely, utterly upset at a plot development. Not angry, but more sad and confused. Less "This sucks! This should never have happened and the producers were stupid for making it so!" but more of "But... why? Why? I don't understand this! How could this have happened?"
In my view, we have Nanoha, a basically cheerful girl who tries her best in everything she does and has a good view of everyone she meets, turn into an aloof instructor type (at age nineteen) who is willing to turn punishments into object lessons; to quote Lear, "a child so young and so ungentle". I suppose my illusions of how Nanoha was were shattered just as Subaru's was.
This is like watching Sakura (from Card Captor Sakura) use the Clow Cards (or Sakura Cards, if you prefer) to stop an evil (or misguided) magician, not by simply restraining him, but by restraining him, and then making him watch as she destroys his life's works and everything else he holds dear. It may not be evil, per se, but it's just not what I expected.
If Nanoha truly had to send a message to Teana and/or Subaru, I'd have expected that she would tell them what that message was, clearly and directly, even at the time of the smackdown. As it is, we have to guess, because Nanoha went Dark Mode and left them with relatively cryptic words that don't actually say anything directly.
Something happened in those ten years to change Nanoha, so I tell myself. I suppose this is because I'm not willing to accept that Nanoha turned into someone like this just because she grew up; a change wrought not by events, but by time.
As you have said, dkellis, ten years. A lot could have happened, even not counting that incident. Friends killed in the line of duty, people that you couldn't help even if you desperately wanted to, a slight mistake leading to a catastrophic outcome, dreams shattered, ideals betrayed...
A lot could have happened.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 10:32
Hmm. More on the image then? Well, I can sympathize with your pain. Like many other people, I sometimes still get the wistful feeling that maybe I would prefer it if the Aces were still younger than what they are now. I would have gladly welcomed more development from the Aces; more so if it was in the puberty/pre-puberty stage. But from what were given now, I'm just treating it as a different sort of present from what I was expecting, bit still a very likable present, nonetheless.
This series has always been about being different...
NOTHING could shake me now...
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 10:32
Completely agreed. Even when restrained, people are still capable of doing harm to themselves or to others. I've seen some situations with this kind of people in them. Believe me, its in no way a pretty sight.
I agree with this. Even if they are 'children', the military is the military. Look at Subaru's bind for example. She still had her feet unbinded, therefore could've still caused damage with serious kicks. I know that if I had done something as stupid as that when I was training, my superior wouldn't have had the kindness of knocking me out. It would've been far far worse.
Yeah, I suppose the main thing which prevents me from seeing Nanoha's actions as being regulation-correct is this bit: was the second shot considered "minimum necessary force"?
Nanoha showed that she could easily slap a Bind on Subaru. (And Fate, and Vita...) Was there a need to shoot Teana that second time, or could Nanoha just use a Bind to restrain Teana in order to "let her head cool off"?
I'm not arguing whether Nanoha wanted to send Teana a message. I'm mostly uncertain about whether this message was according to regulations, or if she's going to get into trouble over this. (Or supposed to, anyway.) I'm not even that concerned about whether Nanoha is going to see any consequences from this (onscreen or offscreen). It's mostly a sort of personal vindication kind of thing.
I doubt that the regulations would allow for what Nanoha did, precisely because of what's causing this controversy: the risk that the instructor would let her personal feelings get into the on-the-spot punishment.
Even if the mock-battle called for the impression of "shot down and terminated", Subaru was considered so after the Bind. The second shot at Teana just looked vindictive by comparison, since Nanoha could have used the first shot to stun Teana (like she did), Bind Subaru, fly over to Bind Teana, and then called the training over. (Or called in extra support to restrain Teana if needed.)
If nothing else, letting Subaru see Teana getting shot when helpless has to be considered "cruel and unusual", since Teana going berserk isn't exactly Subaru's fault. Not only am I calling that second shot in question, I'm also challenging Nanoha's "watch this" to Subaru. If she really needed that second shot to take care of Teana, I don't think she's supposed to turn it into an object lesson as well.
Of course, I'm still kind of confused about why none of these tendencies on either Teana's or Nanoha's parts had shown up prior, even offscreen but still causing comment, during the various training montages in this episode or previous ones.
It's been stated before that if Nanoha had actually gone berserk, she woul've shot Starlight Breaker or Divine Buster without 'magical damage only' mode. Instead, she would've given her a nice blast and killed Teana just like that.
Not exactly.
Subaru should have known that she's doing something wrong, helping Teana train herself exact opposite to what she's supposed to do, as Center Guard.
Yet she still helped Teana, knowing what her intention is and where they're going to.
So, in a way, Subaru helped Teana's going berserk.
Edit:
@Estavali - Don't worry, you beat me to it :p
True enough, Subaru is also to blame in all this. Nanoha probably chose to show her what would happen if a psycho enemy had been in her place. The psycho wouldn't kill them on the spot, he would enjoy torturing them slowly. Even here Nanoha was kind. Psycho enemies would torture one of them or both, and then kill one of them, gloat and taunt, and them kill the remaining one off.
If Nanoha truly had to send a message to Teana and/or Subaru, I'd have expected that she would tell them what that message was, clearly and directly, even at the time of the smackdown. As it is, we have to guess, because Nanoha went Dark Mode and left them with relatively cryptic words that don't actually say anything directly.Well, she DID, at least to Teana, back at auction site, and Teana actually promissed that she wouldn't do that again.
Also we might want to remember back in Ep2 she told them about similer stuff too, when she told them they failed exam.
That makes it's... some 3rd time for same mistake.
If word doesn't do the job... you know what you'd choose, even if that's not an well-approved method.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 10:36
Well, she DID, at least to Teana, back at auction site, and Teana actually promissed that she wouldn't do that again.
Also we might want to remember back in Ep2 she told them about similer stuff too, when she tells them they failed exam.
That makes it's... some 3rd time for same mistake.
If word doesn't do the job... you know what you'd choose, if that's not an approved method.
The lesson for Subaru was more psychological than anything, the type that says 'Here, I'm 'killing' your friend and you can't do anything about it'. That's going to stay in her memories for a loooooong time.
@dkellis: I wouldn't hold Subaru totally clean for Tia's situation. If what I've read here is correct, Tia was the one who had apprehensions about trying the combo on Nanoha.
Subaru was the one who convinced her to go with it, without considering the consequences, thinking that Nanoha would just let them off as usual.Subaru did consider the consequences... but she miscalculated very badly.
Teana: But... are you really okay with this?
Subaru: With what?
Teana: You admire Nanoha-san, and this'll be like disobeying her...
Subaru: She might be angry and tell me off, but "disobeying"... we're trying hard to get stronger! If we can produce results, she'll definitely understand! Nanoha-san is a kind person. :love:If Nanoha truly had to send a message to Teana and/or Subaru, I'd have expected that she would tell them what that message was, clearly and directly, even at the time of the smackdown. As it is, we have to guess, because Nanoha went Dark Mode and left them with relatively cryptic words that don't actually say anything directly.Subaru and Teana have been warned several times already, both by Nanoha and Reinforce Zwei, about dangerous and reckless stunts. I don't think we're dealing with a failure of communication here - it's a failure of comprehension. Nanoha decided to teach them in a way they couldn't just ignore.
I don't much like it myself, but Nanoha is faced with a serious problem here: Teana and Subaru aren't just trainees, they're active-duty combatants, and she doesn't have the luxury of time with which to correct their attitudes gradually. Without Vita's intervention Subaru would already be dead or seriously hurt, and the pair of them are showing no signs of learning from that mistake and toning down their act.
Something happened in those ten years to change Nanoha, so I tell myself. I suppose this is because I'm not willing to accept that Nanoha turned into someone like this just because she grew up; a change wrought not by events, but by time.I don't think we're seeing the results of time here. Nanoha's outlook was clearly influenced by that past event, as was Vita's. I'd suspect that her responsibilities as a commander and instructor play a part as well. Nanoha's talent has always allowed her to improvise recklessly in battle and succeed, but encouraging that tendency in less-gifted trainees is a good way to get them killed.
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 10:42
The lesson for Subaru was more psychological than anything, the type that says 'Here, I'm 'killing' your friend and you can't do anything about it'. That's going to stay in her memories for a loooooong time.
*nods head*
These kinds of lesson usually leads to some serious brooding about the several possibilities in several types of situations. Because of this, the people subjected to the 'lesson' usually come out as better and wiser people. Though it's not always the case, beating up on yourself about a mistake is usually more painful than other people doing the scolding for you. I actually came across some instances that people would rather be yelled at and reprimanded rather than given the cold shoulder.
Despite all the sympathy I have for Tea and Subaru, I still have more sympathy for Nanoha. You could see and hear in her voice that she was upset; she felt that everything she has done for them up to that point was for nothing, and no teacher would like to see their students (hand-picked, no less) directly and consistently disobey requests to follow safety rules and regulations. She had already stopped the battle with limited personal injuries, and yet one still continues to disobey and use aggressive force.
Now you can make all sorts of arguments for alternate resolutions to the situation, such as:
1) You could try and talk her out of it.
Somehow, being rational to someone bearing weapons and not in complete control of their mental wellbeing doesn't always work, regardless of what Hollywood movies and TV police dramas say otherwise.
2) You could bind her.
As I and others have stated before, binding her could have the inverse effect of making her even more hysterical. She isn't completely disarmed either, and there is a chance she could break free and attack again.
You could tell that Nanoha was quickly weighing up the situation as she momentarily paused before deciding on her course of action. She was deeply saddened by what she had to do, but what she had to do was, in her mind, justified. The fact that Subaru was standing right next to Nanoha while Tea was charging up shows that in that situation, it wouldn't just be Nanoha that would be in the firing line had Tea got her shot off, and that something needed to be done immediately to stop her from firing. The use of two shots; binding Subaru and making her watch; both actions were calculated to send home very important messages to both of them: "action without thought is dangerous", "reckless action harms you and others around you", "for every action there is a consequence (and in both your cases it is fatal)", "there is no second chance in a real situation"... the list goes on.
It must be very painful for the normally kind-hearted Nanoha to have to exert that kind of cold, brutal punishment.
I suppose I should clarify what I meant: I don't mean that Nanoha has never told Teana what was expected of her.
What I meant was that Nanoha told Teana what was to be done, Teana didn't listen, and Nanoha decided to show Teana (and/or Subaru) the consequences... and didn't repeat the message again at that time.
Again, I can accept that Nanoha just got tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. In which case, her actions were understandable as a human, but not for an instructor.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 10:51
Sorry to butt in (again) at this all-so-serious moment, but being gone for the last 4 hours or so...
Has the last 2-3 pages been nothing else other than a "The people vs Takamachi Nanoha" trial? :heh:
EDIT:
Again, I can accept that Nanoha just got tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. In which case, her actions were understandable as a human, but not for an instructor.
Can you be an instructor and not human?
Sorry to butt in (again) at this all-so-serious moment, but being gone for the last 4 hours or so...
Has the last 2-3 pages been nothing else other than a "The people vs Takamachi Nanoha" trial? :heh:
yes sir lol ,well more like 4pages throwing at each other like the 1st 8 pages earlier :p
Edit:Just different player ^.^ this time...
What I meant was that Nanoha told Teana what was to be done, Teana didn't listen, and Nanoha decided to show Teana (and/or Subaru) the consequences... and didn't repeat the message again at that time.Tea clearly wasn't in any frame of mind to listen at that point. Perhaps Nanoha could have said more to Subaru, though - we'll see if she adds anything else next episode.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 10:57
yes sir lol ,well more like 4pages throwing at each other like the 1st 8 pages earlier :p
Edit:Just different player ^.^ this time...
We should just copy and paste... :heh:
Estavali
2007-05-21, 11:07
Mmm... you know, I think if Nanoha has been more "instructor" than "human", this might have gone through in her mind:
Tiana Lanster.
Unrepentant.
Recklessly disobeying orders.
Selfishly putting herself and her partner in danger despite repeated warnings.
Attempting mutiny/insubordination, with a technique she obviously has problem controlling, and with her partner in the line of fire.
Conclusion?
A burden to the team.
Execute at will.
@Guppy: Thanks for the dialague translation :).
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 11:08
*nods head*
These kinds of lesson usually leads to some serious brooding about the several possibilities in several types of situations. Because of this, the people subjected to the 'lesson' usually come out as better and wiser people. Though it's not always the case, beating up on yourself about a mistake is usually more painful than other people doing the scolding for you. I actually came across some instances that people would rather be yelled at and reprimanded rather than given the cold shoulder.
*Nods head in agreement*
That's right. Subaru has now two choices: Either to hate Nanoha, keep sulking and go crazy like Teana did, just so Nanoha has to cool her head as well, or she can calm down, realize what she did was wrong and try to improve slowly in her reckless ways.
I suppose I should clarify what I meant: I don't mean that Nanoha has never told Teana what was expected of her.
What I meant was that Nanoha told Teana what was to be done, Teana didn't listen, and Nanoha decided to show Teana (and/or Subaru) the consequences... and didn't repeat the message again at that time.
Again, I can accept that Nanoha just got tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. In which case, her actions were understandable as a human, but not for an instructor.
Teana refused to listen to anything being told to her and took the words that registered even worse, going even more berserk. As stated by Icarus, it must be hard to kind-hearted, gentle Takamachi Nanoha to have to deliver such a punishment.
Sorry to butt in (again) at this all-so-serious moment, but being gone for the last 4 hours or so...
Has the last 2-3 pages been nothing else other than a "The people vs Takamachi Nanoha" trial? :heh:
EDIT:
Can you be an instructor and not human?
Your prescence is always welcome Master Chaos. We could always use a bit of humor.
And no. It's impossible to be an Instructor but not human. You can never get rid of your human side, as much as you may want to.
EDIT: @Estavali: Don't forget 'Attempted murder'.
EDIT: @Estavali: Don't forget 'Attempted murder'.
And "mentally unstable".
Estavali
2007-05-21, 11:18
Aye, especially the mentally unstable part. Talent and skill means nothing to the higher-ups when you're nuts.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 11:18
And "mentally unstable".
If we consider all this facts, not only Teana is mentally unfit for duty, she also desperately needs to consult a physician. A mental physician.
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 11:19
Yeah. But by the way things are going, I'm willing to bet on snapping out of it in battle.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 11:22
Yeah. But by the way things are going, I'm willing to bet on snapping out of it in battle.
And I'm willing to bet it'll involve a two minute long flashback scene while her partner is getting trashed...
Caro: I'm very sorry! :upset:
Erio: E-Erm, it's really okay... :heh:
EDIT:
brb after sleep... about 5 hours...
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 11:24
And I'm willing to bet it'll involve a two minute long flashback scene while her partner is getting trashed...
Not to mention emo-name screaming.:heh:
Anyway, I just hope it's resolved before episode 10.
Next week should be very interesting.Nanoha: There's something I want to tell you... the meaning of courage, and the first thing you must protect above all else.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 11:44
Next week should be very interesting.Nanoha: There's something I want to tell you... the meaning of courage, and the first thing you must protect above all else.
That would be your life right? Nanoha's injury........I wonder how they're gonna pull this one off. They can't back down now that they've showed us the preview, but what kind of enemy could take Nanoha down? I just can't imagine an appropriate candidate. If Satashi's prediction (See Fanfic discussion thread for a link to the story) comes true, the guy deserves a prize.
Well, one direction this could go, although it may be a bit cliche . . . is that Teana leaves on her own. Then she runs into Scaglietti - who offers her the chance to become more powerful. She agrees, and is turned into a relic weapon . . .
Mid boss number 3 is created.
I doubt it though.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 11:46
Well, one direction this could go, although it may be a bit cliche . . . is that Teana leaves on her own. Then she runs into Scaglietti - who offers her the chance to become more powerful. She agrees, and is turned into a relic weapon . . .
Mid boss number 3 is created.
I doubt it though.
It's already been speculated and we came to the conclusion that if Teana is stupid enough to do that, it'll affect her dream of becoming an Enforcer greatly. I don't think any organization take traitors.
They can't back down now that they've showed us the preview, but what kind of enemy could take Nanoha down? I just can't imagine an appropriate candidate.Under the right circumstances? Vita almost managed it at the start of A's, with a bit of surprise on her side. Even after Raising Heart and Bardiche got powered up, Signum was evenly matched with Fate, and the catgirl twins were repeatedly able to get the drop on both Nanoha and Fate.
Our leading ladies are immensely strong and talented, but definitely not invincible. Maybe Nanoha's injuries coincided with the first time they encountered AMF-equipped enemies? Throw in a bit of bad luck, and things could go south very quickly...
It's already been speculated and we came to the conclusion that if Teana is stupid enough to do that, it'll affect her dream of becoming an Enforcer greatly. I don't think any organization take traitors.
The question then becomes: Why does she want to become an enforcer?
If it's to show that her brother's style isn't useless, then this desire could be twisted. Something like 'Destroy the ones who looked down on him' or such. She could actually partially succeed at this, and we get the wiped-out TSAB scenario . . .
~
Our leading ladies are immensely strong and talented, but definitely not invincible. Maybe Nanoha's injuries coincided with the first time they encountered AMF-equipped enemies? Throw in a bit of bad luck, and things could go south very quickly...
Hmm... if so, it can't be the Drones. Nanoha was with Fate, Hayate and R-Zwei when they first encountered the Drones (Type-1), and they basically proceeded to turn the Drones into scrap metal without so much as breaking a sweat.
Nanoha's bloodied incident was therefore before they knew of the Drones' existence. Vita's recall of the incident was during the second Drone encounter.
Cheers.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 12:08
Under the right circumstances? Vita almost managed it at the start of A's, with a bit of surprise on her side. Even after Raising Heart and Bardiche got powered up, Signum was evenly matched with Fate, and the catgirl twins were repeatedly able to get the drop on both Nanoha and Fate.
Our leading ladies are immensely strong and talented, but definitely not invincible. Maybe Nanoha's injuries coincided with the first time they encountered AMF-equipped enemies? Throw in a bit of bad luck, and things could go south very quickly...
Good point. Never thought about that, but we all obviously know they're not invincible. Those who think so are taking the 'White Devil' jokes too seriously :heh: :heh: :heh:
The question then becomes: Why does she want to become an enforcer?
If it's to show that her brother's style isn't useless, then this desire could be twisted. Something like 'Destroy the ones who looked down on him' or such. She could actually partially succeed at this, and we get the wiped-out TSAB scenario . . .
Teana isn't even strong enough to take on a limited Nanoha and you want her to wipe out the TSAB full of experienced mages with ranks like: A, AA, AAA, etc? Please gimme a break. And yeah, she wants to be an Enforcer to fullfil her brother's dream. Not a bad inspiration unless it turns into madness. Rewatching the episode made me feel sorry for Teana, but I still believe she deserved what she got.
EDIT: Skane's right. The first time they took on the drones they were 15 already (Drats! I forgot about that too). So now we're back to wondering what caused Nanoha's injury.
TIf it's to show that her brother's style isn't useless, then this desire could be twisted. Something like 'Destroy the ones who looked down on him' or such. She could actually partially succeed at this, and we get the wiped-out TSAB scenario . . .
Power is nothing without control. We've already seen that Teana under pressure lacks control of both her powers and her emotions. Nanoha's "lesson" can go either way: Teana can either come to her senses and learn to control herself and her skills at critical moments, or she can have a complete breakdown.
It's going to get juicy soon.
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 12:10
Why people suddenly think Teana is litteraly "crazy" or "mentally unbalanced", while she only outburst her hurt feelings? oO
seriously, you never encountered people, with under a certain stress, upset mood etc, can just snaps , but were and still are pretty normal?
@fuyu no sora : treason? murder? wait a min... aren't you taking her "if it hit, we win" plan + the desperate move too seriously?
Tea clearly wasn't in any frame of mind to listen at that point. Perhaps Nanoha could have said more to Subaru, though - we'll see if she adds anything else next episode.
Exactly. Why did Nanoha tell Subaru to watch? What is Subaru going to remember about this: that recklessness may cost lives, or that her idol just shot her best friend?
I'm not actually expecting Subaru to take anything from this incident other than "Nanoha shot Teana!", mind. I'd just have liked Nanoha to have made the effort.
Mmm... you know, I think if Nanoha has been more "instructor" than "human", this might have gone through in her mind:
Well, I did say that it was more being human than being an instructor.
I didn't say whether this is good or bad.
(If you are asking, though, I'd say that it's neither good nor bad. Being human means being flawed, and not knowing the Best Possible Course Of Action for every or any situation. There had to have been a better way, not least of which was to restrain, explain, then knock out as needed.
Being more of an instructor than a human, though, means that stuff like compassion and empathy and other vague terms like that may be unfamiliar.)
Hmm... if so, it can't be the Drones. Nanoha was with Fate, Hayate and R-Zwei when they first encountered the Drones (Type-1), and they basically proceeded to turn the Drones into scrap metal without so much as breaking a sweat.Yes, that's entirely true. The thing is, during that encounter Nanoha and Fate showed that they already knew how to handle enemies with AMFs.
I suppose it's possible that they thought their tactics up on the fly, but Hayate's conversation with Rein during the battle seemed to me to imply that they all had prior knowledge of what an AMF would and wouldn't do. Someone must have gained that knowledge from experience, somewhere.
Exactly. Why did Nanoha tell Subaru to watch? What is Subaru going to remember about this: that recklessness may cost lives, or that her idol just shot her best friend?I think this will come down to what, if anything, Nanoha says to her next episode.
However, I also think the fundamental problem runs deeper than that. Nanoha (or someone else) is going to have to have a much deeper talk with the pair of them about their values. Improvisation and risk are integral to combat; the problem here is with Subaru and Teana's priorities, in which "getting results" comes before all else to a dangerous degree. Nanoha can't fix that with a couple of one-liners; she's delivering a sharp shock first, probably in hopes of making them more receptive. It might work, or it might not; we'll see.
I'm not actually expecting Subaru to take anything from this incident other than "Nanoha shot Teana!", mind. I'd just have liked Nanoha to have made the effort.
And she didn't make any effort to try and explain her way of thinking during her monologue, before Teana went emo?
(If you are asking, though, I'd say that it's neither good nor bad. Being human means being flawed, and not knowing the Best Possible Course Of Action for every or any situation. There had to have been a better way, not least of which was to restrain, explain, then knock out as needed.
You have to consider the situation though. The battle was stopped, Nanoha was trying to explain and teach, but Tea wouldn't listen. Not only that, she tried to attack again, with an attack we haven't seen before prior to this episode. No one knows how dangerous this attack could have been. I'm sure in Nanoha's mind there was no other way.
If you were in Nanoha's situation, what would you have done? If it were me, I think I would have used exactly the same level of force to defuse the situation, in exactly the same manner. It is better to quickly put out the fire before it gets out of hand.
Why people suddenly think Teana is litteraly "crazy" or "mentally unbalanced", while she only outburst her hurt feelings? oO
seriously, you never encountered people, with under a certain stress, upset mood etc, can just snaps , but were and still are pretty normal?
I think it may be a case of loaded words. "Crazy" seems to depict the sort of straitjacket padded-cell insanity that is somehow permanent.
I take it to mean that Teana, during that point in time, was not thinking clearly or logically. She did, indeed, go "crazy" during that time, and was thus in need of an analogue to a straitjacket, ie restraints to prevent her from hurting other people during this moment of not-thinking-clearly.
In the real world, people use rope, handcuffs, or simply brute strength and body-locks. In the Nanohaverse, people can use Binds. In this situation, Nanoha uses a blast of energy. "Unconscious" in this case counts as "restrained".
So yes, I would agree that Teana went "crazy". It just doesn't carry the additional connotation of "permanently insane" to me.
As for "mentally unbalanced", well, that's harder to pin down. Maybe Teana is "mentally unbalanced" (long-term) due to her obsession over her brother's death (and the fallout thereof). Maybe she's not. It's hard to pin down where the label can be used, since enough sliding on the scale can make it applicable to anyone from an average determined person to Spider-man to Batman to the Joker.
Oh yes, one more VERY IMPORTANT thing that hasn't mentioned yet, plot wise.
(I mean, why I forgot about it, it's so important...)Those JS were temporary lent out for some rural installasion (Museum or something?) from TSAB's storage, then it got stolen while it's under lower security of rural place.
Or that's how Fate explained to Yuuno... so Spagetti indeed does have the "real" Jewel Seeds.
It's also worth mentioning that Fate even feel nostalgic for seeing JS once again.
There was tragedic parting around JS too, but JS was the key for her to "start herself", she says...
Looks like Fate really did accept her past.
Oh my, it's 2 a.m here... gonna sleep or I'll be in hell tommorow.
Edit:Still, it doesn't change the fact that JS are scarce over anything...
Maybe it's far easier for him to make a cheap cuplication, as he now has "real" JS for any reseach he'd wish to.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 12:28
Why people suddenly think Teana is litteraly "crazy" or "mentally unbalanced", while she only outburst her hurt feelings? oO
seriously, you never encountered people, with under a certain stress, upset mood etc, can just snaps , but were and still are pretty normal?
@fuyu no sora : treason? murder? wait a min... aren't you taking her "if it hit, we win" plan + the desperate move too seriously?
Yes, I'm looking at the worst case scenario. We're specualting here what would happen if Teana went to join Spaghetti not saying this is official :heh:.
Ummm......I don't think stress, upset mood and all that will cause mentally stable people to attempt murder y'know? I mean, we're talking about Nanoha here so she can defend herself, but let's say it was someone else that could've been completely surprised by that attack. Judging from the angle of her fall, Teana would've most probably hit the head or back of that person, either murdering him/her or at least incapacitating them.
Exactly. Why did Nanoha tell Subaru to watch? What is Subaru going to remember about this: that recklessness may cost lives, or that her idol just shot her best friend?
Like I previously stated, this was a psychological lesson for Subaru. I'll have to quote myself in this case:
True enough, Subaru is also to blame in all this. Nanoha probably chose to show her what would happen if a psycho enemy had been in her place. The psycho wouldn't kill them on the spot, he would enjoy torturing them slowly. Even here Nanoha was kind. Psycho enemies would torture one of them or both, and then kill one of them, gloat and taunt, and them kill the remaining one off.
The lesson for Subaru was more psychological than anything, the type that says 'Here, I'm 'killing' your friend and you can't do anything about it'. That's going to stay in her memories for a loooooong time.
This is my resoning though.
Being more of an instructor than a human, though, means that stuff like compassion and empathy and other vague terms like that may be unfamiliar.)
Compassion with a berserk girl not caring about anything but shooting you down to prove she won? Please explain this to me. Teana went nuts because of ONE mistake and she wanted to take that out on Nanoha, not caring if Subaru was in the angle of her shot.
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 12:38
Yes, I'm looking at the worst case scenario. We're specualting here what would happen if Teana went to join Spaghetti not saying this is official :heh:.
Ummm......I don't think stress, upset mood and all that will cause mentally stable people to attempt murder y'know? I mean, we're talking about Nanoha here so she can defend herself, but let's say it was someone else that could've been completely surprised by that attack. Judging from the angle of her fall, Teana would've most probably hit the head or back of that person, either murdering him/her or at least incapacitating them.
the text in bold IS the problem.
you CANNOT speculate anyone else, since Teana prepared that attack since she KNOWS her target.
true my words sounds like an assassination, but think the other way :
Teana is a Rank B mage, and she is facing her Instructor. she perfectly knows her background, and should probably know how far nanoha's power can be.
thus, how Teana can hit her alone, considering nanoha absurd defense?
This is her mistake : Teana was too much obssessed about being able to hit nanoha, while she didn't pay attention to any other way, or a stunt which can be considered as a clean hit.
but this is NOT a murder attempt, NOR she had the killing attempt.
she was all out, because she KNEW she had to, or else, she wouldn't be able to lay a scratch on nanoha.
Compassion with a berserk girl not caring about anything but shooting you down to prove she won? Please explain this to me. Teana went nuts because of ONE mistake and she wanted to take that out on Nanoha, not caring if Subaru was in the angle of her shot.again, you are mistaking Teana's goal.
it is true that she was once obsessed by power.
however, her breakdown was because of ep6 : she is STILL guilty about her incident with subaru.
this is the main reason why she didn't use the usual trick : subaru going frontline, while shooting at the back of the target.
If the translation is accurate enough, Teana changed her state of mind : she felt to weak, since she knows she will be the leader of the rookies somehow. thus, after her big failure at the auction incident, she couldn't let herself being weak, for everyone's sake. thus, she had to prove she can fullfil her duty, no matter how (the underlined part is the flaw part of her reasoning, but not the rest)
but instead of using another way to hit the target with a ranged attack, she choosed a reckless style (which was her mistake)
we don't know if the attack could hit subaru as well, and frankly, i feel teana was just using a desperate attack, knowing it WON'T hit. did you observe her outburst? she is really admitting that she already lost.
Nanoha's crossfire shoot just shut her will to fight all at once, that's all.
kari-no-sugata
2007-05-21, 12:46
I wonder if we'll see Ferret Mode again in StrikerS. :D
One random thought/dream I had is: the gang need to go on a undercover mission, and Nanoha tells everyone to show up disguised so well even friends wouldn't recognise them - and Nanoha turns up as her 9 year old version (using transformation magic) with Yuuno in ferret mode on her shoulder :D
And she didn't make any effort to try and explain her way of thinking during her monologue, before Teana went emo?
As I mentioned, I'm not disputing that. I'm asking why Nanoha didn't provide the reason she shot Teana for the second time. What I got from the scene was Nanoha going "why do you insist on disobeying orders?", Teana preparing to blast Nanoha, and then Nanoha firing back. Teana looked dazed, Subaru found herself in a bind, Nanoha told her to watch, and then shot Teana again.
It's clear that Teana was in no position to listen to Nanoha after the first shot, being that she was, well, dazed. (And after that, unconscious.) But Subaru was given no clear word of explanation. Why is this?
If you were in Nanoha's situation, what would you have done? If it were me, I think I would have used exactly the same level of force to defuse the situation, in exactly the same manner. It is better to quickly put out the fire before it gets out of hand.
If I were in Nanoha's situation, I would have stunned Teana with the first attack, gone over to her, restrained her, called for backup (not so much for actual assistance as for accountability), and then if and only if Teana were showing visible and clear signs of being hysterical, then I would have knocked her out, whether magically or physically.
I'm not saying that this is definitely an objectively Better Way, but in my opinion it would have been more logical. If two trainees of mine were acting in such flagrant disregard of orders, they may have lost any rights to buddy-bantering or such at that moment (after any repercussions and discipline would be another matter), but breaking (or even bending) the rules myself would have been out of line. This seemed like a time to hew even more closely to the rules than before.
This is operating under the assumption that Nanoha shot that second blast to stop Teana. There was no need, in that situation, for Nanoha to tell Subaru to keep watching. What did Nanoha want Subaru to take from this? What message did she want to convey, and why didn't she explain it explicitly? Not the cause for the stopping of the mock-battle, but the cause for that second shot?
But if Nanoha intended the second shot to be a lesson all along, well, that's her prerogative as an instructor, whether regulation-correct or not. I'd like there to be some consequence if it turns out not to be regulation-correct, but I wouldn't complain if there weren't, since, well, the TSAB seems to be fairly lax anyway. (Yeah, I'm used to plot holes.)
however, her breakdown was because of ep6 : she is STILL guilty about her incident with subaru.I agree with you on this part. The problem is that Subaru and Teana drew the wrong lessons from that incident - not "we were too reckless, next time we'll play it safer and wait for backup to arrive," but instead "we weren't good enough to make it work, let's train harder and try again."
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 12:48
Nanoha's crossfire shoot just shut her will to fight all at once, that's all.
And this is what has been debated and is still being debated in here. You're all trying to justify Teana's course of action which was flawed to say the least. If she's going to be a leader, she has to act like one by setting the example and keeping her cool, not by going berserk and trying to hit your mark by any means possible, something risky for herself and the team she's leading on.
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 12:55
And this is what has been debated and is still being debated in here. You're all trying to justify Teana's course of action which was flawed to say the least. If she's going to be a leader, she has to act like one by setting the example and keeping her cool, not by going berserk and trying to hit your mark by any means possible, something risky for herself and the team she's leading on.
when i meant crossfire shoot, it was the very first attack.
Teana was no longer able, nor willing to fight after the first attack. she get knocked out with the second.
I'm not justifying her course of action.
i'm actually say how i feel about her actions.
i never say she was right, this is the opposite : i don't approve how reckless she was, especially considering how she was ranting on subaru's recklessness in previous episodes.
but i'm kinda horrified how people can label a character as "villainous" or "completely crazy", etc, just because they were "human" and outburst their feelings :twitch:
She realised she couldn't succeed the test in that way : she lost EVERYTHING with that block : her training was a waste, etc etc. (this might be emo at the first glance, but this isn't uncalled : this is her character development, and this was rather well done, considering Teana's feeling from episode 1 until now)
how would you feel if everything was shattered in only one single block?
Teana didn't snap because she wanted to hit properly nanoha no matter what.
instead, she was completely crushed by another failure, and just lost to it, without considering everything beside of "strength".
Teana was the most cool headed rookies, but the pressure and her guitl just reversed her manners.
you must understand that her breakdown is irrevelent to her usual self.
But if Nanoha intended the second shot to be a lesson all along, well, that's her prerogative as an instructor, whether regulation-correct or not. I'd like there to be some consequence if it turns out not to be regulation-correct, but I wouldn't complain if there weren't, since, well, the TSAB seems to be fairly lax anyway. (Yeah, I'm used to plot holes.)I think it's reasonably evident that if Nanoha just wanted to stop Teana quickly, she would have used Divine Buster or Starlight Breaker and done the job in one shot. Her copying of Tea's own technique strongly suggests a calculated move to me.
As for her punishment of Tea while making Subaru watch... I think we really have to wait until next episode before we can judge whether Nanoha explains herself properly or not.
Like I previously stated, this was a psychological lesson for Subaru. I'll have to quote myself in this case:
Hm, maybe I should elaborate: what purpose would Nanoha's message serve? Basically, what lesson did Nanoha want to send to Subaru, and for what purpose?
I think that showing how there are Bad People out there would be a bit redundant, and I'm just not sure why Nanoha would want to imprint upon Subaru the image of Nanoha Shooting Teana. The most obvious reaction to this (as shown) is anger and hate, and there must be a reason why Nanoha wants to bring out that hate.
Compassion with a berserk girl not caring about anything but shooting you down to prove she won? Please explain this to me. Teana went nuts because of ONE mistake and she wanted to take that out on Nanoha, not caring if Subaru was in the angle of her shot.
Compassion with someone who's just as human as you are.
Teana evidently decided that the best course of action at the time was to do something that is objectively quite stupid. Her judgement was clouded quite a bit (I think this is agreed upon), which led to what happened.
Nanoha also decided that the best course of action at the time was to do what she did. I'm arguing that I think her judgement was also clouded. Whether to a greater or lesser degree, the clouding is there.
Letting emotions rule over logic is a very human fallibility. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 13:03
when i meant crossfire shoot, it was the very first attack.
Teana was no longer able, nor willing to fight after the first attack. she get knocked out with the second.
I'm not justifying her course of action.
i'm actually say how i feel about her actions.
i never say she was right, this is the opposite : i don't approve how reckless she was, especially considering how she was ranting on subaru's recklessness in previous episodes.
but i'm kinda horrified how people can label a character as "villainous" or "completely crazy", etc, just because they were "human" and outburst their feelings :twitch:
She realised she couldn't succeed the test in that way : she lost EVERYTHING with that block : her training was a waste, etc etc. (this might be emo at the first glance, but this isn't uncalled : this is her character development, and this was rather well done, considering Teana's feeling from episode 1 until now)
how would you feel if everything was shattered in only one single block?
Teana didn't snap because she wanted to hit properly nanoha no matter what.
instead, she was completely crushed by another failure, and just lost to it, without considering everything beside of "strength".
Teana was the most cool headed rookies, but the pressure and her guitl just reversed her manners.
you must understand that her breakdown is irrevelent to her usual self.
Fine fine, I'll give you that much. But her breakdown does affect her usual self. Knowing how proud she is, probably she'll isolate herself even more out of embarrasment for her 'crazy' moment and the outburst she had.
I never said she was villanious. We were speculating a 'what if' scenario, should she go and join Spaghetti. I was merely expressing my opinion on the subject. Neither did I say crazy. I said mentally unstable. There's a difference. For all we know, she could be mentally unstable because of all the losses she's suffered in her life, first her parents, then her brother.
I think that showing how there are Bad People out there would be a bit redundant, and I'm just not sure why Nanoha would want to imprint upon Subaru the image of Nanoha Shooting Teana. The most obvious reaction to this (as shown) is anger and hate, and there must be a reason why Nanoha wants to bring out that hate.If I had to speculate, I'd wonder if Nanoha hasn't cottoned on to the fact that Subaru views her as a soft touch, which partly led up to this whole incident. That would certainly be an effective way of disabusing her of the notion, although it might be counterproductive in Nanoha's dual role as Stars team leader.
As I've stated, though, I'd rather wait until the next episode to see if Nanoha will explain her reasoning to Subaru.
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 13:07
I'm still believing the lesson that Nanoha was trying to make was important for both Teana and Subaru. Subaru's lesson really was that if you don't fight intelligently and if they continue that way this will happen. Subaru may end up watching someone she cares about being killed without being able to do anything. Nanoha could've subdued Teana in a less flashy method but this did serve a purpose. If she had told the reason before shooting it wouldn't have been such an impact if she told it after. I'm hoping Nanoha will come back or someone will come in and explain the purpose to Subaru since we don't need her just being angry about it without learning anything.
For Teana I think things were partially to get her unconcious before she flipped out any more. Also showing her what fate is awaiting her if change isn't made. One shot could've done it and a bind to finish but if Nanoha is going to be going this far might as well send the message home. Some may not like how she did this but the choice was made.
It might help the both of them if Nanoha does give out this story of what happened to her. If something isn't done those two really could get themselves and their comrades killed.
If I had to speculate, I'd wonder if Nanoha hasn't cottoned on to the fact that Subaru views her as a soft touch, which partly led up to this whole incident. That would certainly be an effective way of disabusing her of the notion, although it might be counterproductive in Nanoha's dual role as Stars team leader.
As I've stated, though, I'd rather wait until the next episode to see if Nanoha will explain her reasoning to Subaru.
Yeah, I'm waiting for the next episode as well. In fact, if Nanoha doesn't explain her reasoning to Teana/Subaru, then I'd be more than a little annoyed.
I figure that Nanoha already made her point that she wasn't a soft touch when she made that speech about the training being useless. Not to mention that if there was some flashback which showed that Nanoha knew beforehand that Subaru and Teana were plotting to do the Crossfire Shoot again, a simple "I'm not as easy-going as you think" would have prevented the incident from happening in the first place. (Of course, I'm assuming that Nanoha did not know this.) After all, unlike Teana, Subaru definitely listens to Nanoha when the latter is being serious/clear.
If this does not get resolved before the next mission they all go out on (looks like the next episode), there'll be a huge amount of unproductive tension and grudges in the Stars squad. The leader is not supposed to show herself as being vindictive, justified or otherwise; leading is done best (or at least "most properly") via respect (or, in darker stories, fear), rather than hatred.
I'm hoping Nanoha will come back or someone will come in and explain the purpose to Subaru since we don't need her just being angry about it without learning anything.
Exactly. I still see nothing in the last scene which shows that Subaru has learned anything from this, other than to hate Nanoha (and the feeling of betrayal).
Didn't they really just use the normal trick though? Subaru was bait and holding Nanoha from the front while Teana attacked from behind. Sure it was a blade instead of a shot but it's still their plan.Isn't the "normal trick" supposed to be Teana covering Subaru, though, rather than Teana using Subaru as a decoy?
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 13:16
Isn't the "normal trick" supposed to be Teana covering Subaru, though, rather than Teana using Subaru as a decoy?
that was both, IMO.
the normal and usual tactic was : teana as a cover for subaru.
Though, during episode 6, Teana used subaru as a decoy (this is the main reason why nanoha lectured Teana about "teamplay", correct me if i'm wrong)
as for this episode, it is a mix between both tactics, though the dagger plan was much more a combination attack.
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 13:17
Well depends I guess on how much we've seen them go. In the first test Teana was the distraction, simply because she was injured and so couldn't do much. When the 'incident' last episode happened Subaru was the decoy while Teana was going to finish it. So maybe there isn't a usual trick?
Well depends I guess on how much we've seen them go. In the first test Teana was the distraction, simply because she was injured and so couldn't do much. When the 'incident' last episode happened Subaru was the decoy while Teana was going to finish it. So maybe there isn't a usual trick?I'm going off what Nanoha said previously about the "Centre Guard" position that Teana's supposed to be occupying - it sounded basically like a pure fire-support role.
It's clear that Teana was in no position to listen to Nanoha after the first shot, being that she was, well, dazed. (And after that, unconscious.) But Subaru was given no clear word of explanation. Why is this?
You also forget that Teana was in no position to listen to Nanoha before the first shot. Nanoha waited to see the situation pan out, then decided to attack. Nanoha's binding of Subaru has many messages, and we could speculate back and forth what that message is (you put down some good arguments in your post here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=955455&postcount=238)) but whatever it was, the intent to show both Subaru and Teana what the consequences of irrational behaviour in a possible real-world situation is there.
Given that this is the third screw-up warning for Teana (and the fourth for Subaru, counting when Nanoha swiped her off Wing Road with Raising Heart earlier in the battle), I reckon Nanoha had just about enough, and took Vita's comment at the end of episode 6 into consideration (with her own spin on it). You're in an elite mage unit, in the real world, you don't get three let-offs - you're lucky to get one.
I'm not saying that this is definitely an objectively Better Way, but in my opinion it would have been more logical. If two trainees of mine were acting in such flagrant disregard of orders, they may have lost any rights to buddy-bantering or such at that moment (after any repercussions and discipline would be another matter), but breaking (or even bending) the rules myself would have been out of line. This seemed like a time to hew even more closely to the rules than before.
And how are we to know that Nanoha isn't acting logically and rationally in this situation? Somehow I doubt Nanoha wanted to take the risk of binding Teana, especially considering Tea has already demonstrated the ability to use higher-level skills. Risking a bind being broken before backup arrives and a possible counter-attack is not an acceptable option.
In my view, both the "shot to stun, shot to knock out" and the "shot to stun, bind and arrest" approaches are logical, but highly dependent on the situation, and the mindset and personality of the person in charge. Nanoha already mentioned in episode 6 that "if there is time to shout about the small things, there is even more time to teach them things by knocking them down in a mock battle". Perhaps she's done this kind of disciplinary action before?
This is operating under the assumption that Nanoha shot that second blast to stop Teana. There was no need, in that situation, for Nanoha to tell Subaru to keep watching. What did Nanoha want Subaru to take from this? What message did she want to convey, and why didn't she explain it explicitly? Not the cause for the stopping of the mock-battle, but the cause for that second shot?
But if Nanoha intended the second shot to be a lesson all along, well, that's her prerogative as an instructor, whether regulation-correct or not. I'd like there to be some consequence if it turns out not to be regulation-correct, but I wouldn't complain if there weren't, since, well, the TSAB seems to be fairly lax anyway. (Yeah, I'm used to plot holes.)
See your post:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=955455&postcount=238
Considering Subaru is just as responsible for the action as Teana, as they are both a co-ordinated pairing, forcing Subaru to watch is both a reminder that every action has a consequence - Nanoha: "This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated" - and that, if anything, they should both consider their roles and how they function as a group, because if anything, Teana seems intent on putting people in the line of fire to further her goals (hello episode 7), while Subaru seems pretty compliant and self-destructive, blindly rushing into things without some kind of a plan (see episode 1 end - Teana: "you have thought about how you're going to stop, right??").
Letting emotions rule over logic is a very human fallibility. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
Aside from showing sadness and disappointment, Nanoha was completely emotionless during the end sequence. Somehow I very much doubt that her emotions ruled over her logic in that situation, especially considering just how calculated and controlled she executed her attack.
FlameSparkZ
2007-05-21, 13:34
This episode really hit a lot of people...
I think it's pretty obvious that Teana's judgement was clouded, when she loaded the blade on Cross Mirage, she mentioned "Cutting through the Barrier and piercing the Field, one hit should be enough." or something like that...that's just being too serious! and they were doing a mock battle!
In the situation Nanoha was, there was no way she could stop Teana with one hand busy blocking Subaru's attack and the other holding RH...
Therefore she called "Mode Release" RH turned back into the red jewel, and Nanoha stopped Teana's insane attack.
Seeing such recklessness, Nanoha just snapped and from the caring and forgiving instructor, became something much worse than having Vita as an instructor...
Teana was obviously unstable, shouting like that, so Nanoha, like she mentioned, knocked her out to cool down, Subaru would just interfere, so she bound her.
The two shots were needed, one to show how Nanoha's version of Cross Fire hits as a multiple hit attack, and the other was a single hit, which packed a much heavier punch.
Instead of asking why Nanoha did it, look at the expression on her face...it speaks for itself.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 13:39
You also forget that Teana was in no position to listen to Nanoha before the first shot. Nanoha waited to see the situation pan out, then decided to attack. Nanoha's binding of Subaru has many messages, and we could speculate back and forth what that message is (you put down some good arguments in your post here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=955455&postcount=238)) but whatever it was, the intent to show both Subaru and Teana what the consequences of irrational behaviour in a possible real-world situation is there.
Given that this is the third screw-up warning for Teana (and the fourth for Subaru, counting when Nanoha swiped her off Wing Road with Raising Heart earlier in the battle), I reckon Nanoha had just about enough, and took Vita's comment at the end of episode 6 into consideration (with her own spin on it). You're in an elite mage unit, in the real world, you don't get three let-offs - you're lucky to get one.
And how are we to know that Nanoha isn't acting logically and rationally in this situation? Somehow I doubt Nanoha wanted to take the risk of binding Teana, especially considering Tea has already demonstrated the ability to use higher-level skills. Risking a bind being broken before backup arrives and a possible counter-attack is not an acceptable option.
In my view, both the "shot to stun, shot to knock out" and the "shot to stun, bind and arrest" approaches are logical, but highly dependent on the situation, and the mindset and personality of the person in charge. Nanoha already mentioned in episode 6 that "if there is time to shout about the small things, there is even more time to teach them things by knocking them down in a mock battle". Perhaps she's done this kind of disciplinary action before?
See your post:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=955455&postcount=238
Considering Subaru is just as responsible for the action as Teana, as they are both a co-ordinated pairing, forcing Subaru to watch is both a reminder that every action has a consequence - Nanoha: "This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated" - and that, if anything, they should both consider their roles and how they function as a group, because if anything, Teana seems intent on putting people in the line of fire to further her goals (hello episode 7), while Subaru seems pretty compliant and self-destructive, blindly rushing into things without some kind of a plan (see episode 1 end - Teana: "you have thought about how you're going to stop, right??").
Aside from showing sadness and disappointment, Nanoha was completely emotionless during the end sequence. Somehow I very much doubt that her emotions ruled over her logic in that situation, especially considering just how calculated and controlled she executed her attack.
This is a nice done summary. And everything pointed out is correct. While Teana's judgement was overcome with emotion, Nanoha's wasn't, therefore proving that she intended to do the actions she did. If you understand the message sha was trying to convey, then good, if not.....
This episode really hit a lot of people...
I think it's pretty obvious that Teana's judgement was clouded, when she loaded the blade on Cross Mirage, she mentioned "Cutting through the Barrier and piercing the Field, one hit should be enough." or something like that...that's just being too serious! and they were doing a mock battle!
In the situation Nanoha was, there was no way she could stop Teana with one hand busy blocking Subaru's attack and the other holding RH...
Therefore she called "Mode Release" RH turned back into the red jewel, and Nanoha stopped Teana's insane attack.
Seeing such recklessness, Nanoha just snapped and from the caring and forgiving instructor, became something much worse than having Vita as an instructor...
Teana was obviously unstable, shouting like that, so Nanoha, like she mentioned, knocked her out to cool down, Subaru would just interfere, so she bound her.
The two shots were needed, one to show how Nanoha's version of Cross Fire hits as a multiple hit attack, and the other was a single hit, which packed a much heavier punch.
Instead of asking why Nanoha did it, look at the expression on her face...it speaks for itself.
Correction: Nanoha didn't snap. Had she snapped, the medical team would be looking right now for at least an atom of Teana.
I think it's pretty obvious that Teana's judgement was clouded, when she loaded the blade on Cross Mirage, she mentioned "Cutting through the Barrier and piercing the Field, one hit should be enough." or something like that...that's just being too serious! and they were doing a mock battle!Hence Nanoha saying that "a mock battle is not a brawl."
As I understand it, a military mock battle is supposed to be a well-defined learning exercise testing and reinforcing specific skills. Arguably Teana and Subaru didn't take it seriously enough, since they completely disregarded the structured objectives of the exercise and instead turned it into a free-for-all.
In the situation Nanoha was, there was no way she could stop Teana with one hand busy blocking Subaru's attack and the other holding RH...Flash Move would've evaded everything quite nicely, I think, but then Subaru might well have gotten hit by accident. :(
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 13:43
Hence Nanoha saying that "a mock battle is not a brawl."
As I understand it, a military mock battle is supposed to be a well-defined learning exercise testing and reinforcing specific skills. Arguably Teana and Subaru didn't take it seriously enough, since they completely disregarded the structured objectives of the exercise and turned it into a free-for-all.
Flash Move would've evaded everything quite nicely, I think, but then Subaru might well have gotten hit by accident. :(
Proving once again Teana's recklessness and not planning ahead.
FlameSparkZ
2007-05-21, 13:52
Flash Move would've evaded everything quite nicely, I think, but then Subaru might well have gotten hit by accident. :(
That being the "worse case scenario", Nanoha did what she did because it was the safest option avaliable...
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 13:54
well... if we speculate, nanoha could also flash move and bind/catch teana while she is midair ^^"
You also forget that Teana was in no position to listen to Nanoha before the first shot. Nanoha waited to see the situation pan out, then decided to attack. Nanoha's binding of Subaru has many messages, and we could speculate back and forth what that message is (you put down some good arguments in your post here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=955455&postcount=238)) but whatever it was, the intent to show both Subaru and Teana what the consequences of irrational behaviour in a possible real-world situation is there.
Gah. I really need to work on being clear in my posts.
I know that Teana was in no condition to listen. I accept (and have accepted long ago) that Teana was in no condition to listen. Right now, Teana not being in a position to listen during that mock-battle (and before, since she got yelled at by Vita) is irrelevant to the discussion. Well, perhaps not irrelevant, but it's an accepted fact.
What I'm trying to say, and have been trying to say, is that Nanoha is evidently trying to send a message to the trainees. Subaru is the most obvious logical choice, since she's the one who is conscious enough to receive the message, but it is at least odd that Nanoha did not explicitly mention the message during the shooting.
That is why I've been speculating. The fact that I'm speculating in the first place means that the message was not clear.
And since I don't know what the message was, I don't know whether the message was aimed at Subaru (more logical and likely), or Teana (unlikely, but nobody was acting logically in that situation).
I don't know why Nanoha would be trying to send a message to Teana, if that was her intent, by knocking her out. It's the same amount of lack of knowledge I have about why Nanoha wanted Subaru to see her knocking Teana out. Either way, or if Nanoha was trying to send a message to someone else, the message itself is not clear.
And how are we to know that Nanoha isn't acting logically and rationally in this situation? Somehow I doubt Nanoha wanted to take the risk of binding Teana, especially considering Tea has already demonstrated the ability to use higher-level skills. Risking a bind being broken before backup arrives and a possible counter-attack is not an acceptable option.
Teana was stunned. I didn't say that Nanoha must never have used her second shot to knock Teana out, but that using that shot then and there, and telling Subaru to watch, is unlikely to have been regulation-correct.
I'm fairly sure that Teana got stunned because if she weren't stunned, she wouldn't have been just standing there waiting for Nanoha's second shot. ("Stunned" in this case means both physical concussion and emotional breaking.)
In my view, both the "shot to stun, shot to knock out" and the "shot to stun, bind and arrest" approaches are logical, but highly dependent on the situation, and the mindset and personality of the person in charge. Nanoha already mentioned in episode 6 that "if there is time to shout about the small things, there is even more time to teach them things by knocking them down in a mock battle". Perhaps she's done this kind of disciplinary action before?
Perhaps. This does mean that she's done it before and this is not against the regulations, which is odd considering the quasi-military feel of the TSAB, but is still possible.
Again, I'm not asking whether Nanoha's actions were Good or Evil, I'm asking if they were Lawful.
Considering Subaru is just as responsible for the action as Teana, as they are both a co-ordinated pairing, forcing Subaru to watch is both a reminder that every action has a consequence - Nanoha: "This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated" - and that, if anything, they should both consider their roles and how they function as a group, because if anything, Teana seems intent on putting people in the line of fire to further her goals (hello episode 7), while Subaru seems pretty compliant and self-destructive, blindly rushing into things without some kind of a plan (see episode 1 end - Teana: "you have thought about how you're going to stop, right??").
That is a very possible message that Nanoha would send. In which case, why didn't she say so explicitly at that time?
Aside from showing sadness and disappointment, Nanoha was completely emotionless during the end sequence. Somehow I very much doubt that her emotions ruled over her logic in that situation, especially considering just how calculated and controlled she executed her attack.
When I get really angry (especially at someone, rather than angry in general), I go all emotionless as well. I'd never say (at least, not when I'm calm) that my judgement is not clouded during those times.
Just because Nanoha seems emotionless does not mean that she really is emotionless. I already mentioned it in the post that you linked to: when I'm angry like that, I get a sort of tunnel-vision. This does not mean that, if I were in Nanoha's place, I would pull out a Starlight Breaker. No, I'd do everything exactly by the book, or at least as much of the book as I remember. And if there's something else in the book that I forgot, which may be anything from a tiny detail to several whole chapters on training discipline, I'm not going to know about that.
Emotion does not exist in a binary on-off state. I'm of the opinion that Nanoha, at that time, had enough emotion overruling her logic to at least not tell Subaru why she had to watch Teana getting shot the second time. Logic, or at least enough time around human nature, would easily have told Nanoha that if she did something like that, the next look Subaru gives her would be one of abject hatred. Logic would also tell her that Subaru would be less receptive to any lessons taught in that state, directly after seeing her best friend shot down by her idol.
I'm not sure why people keep saying that if Nanoha had really been angry, Teana would not have survived. It is entirely possible (and indeed, is what I think happened) that Nanoha did get angry enough to stop thinking entirely clearly, and yet have enough cold logic remaining (indeed, more than she might have, since the anger burned away any feelings of forgiveness or friendship for the moment) to tactically bind Subaru while taking care of Teana.
I just want an answer to this question: if Nanoha was trying to send a message (to whomever), then why did she not mention that message explicitly, instead of by implication?
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 14:35
Gah. I really need to work on being clear in my posts.
I know that Teana was in no condition to listen. I accept (and have accepted long ago) that Teana was in no condition to listen. Right now, Teana not being in a position to listen during that mock-battle (and before, since she got yelled at by Vita) is irrelevant to the discussion. Well, perhaps not irrelevant, but it's an accepted fact.
What I'm trying to say, and have been trying to say, is that Nanoha is evidently trying to send a message to the trainees. Subaru is the most obvious logical choice, since she's the one who is conscious enough to receive the message, but it is at least odd that Nanoha did not explicitly mention the message during the shooting.
That is why I've been speculating. The fact that I'm speculating in the first place means that the message was not clear.
And since I don't know what the message was, I don't know whether the message was aimed at Subaru (more logical and likely), or Teana (unlikely, but nobody was acting logically in that situation).
I don't know why Nanoha would be trying to send a message to Teana, if that was her intent, by knocking her out. It's the same amount of lack of knowledge I have about why Nanoha wanted Subaru to see her knocking Teana out. Either way, or if Nanoha was trying to send a message to someone else, the message itself is not clear.
Teana was stunned. I didn't say that Nanoha must never have used her second shot to knock Teana out, but that using that shot then and there, and telling Subaru to watch, is unlikely to have been regulation-correct.
I'm fairly sure that Teana got stunned because if she weren't stunned, she wouldn't have been just standing there waiting for Nanoha's second shot. ("Stunned" in this case means both physical concussion and emotional breaking.)
Perhaps. This does mean that she's done it before and this is not against the regulations, which is odd considering the quasi-military feel of the TSAB, but is still possible.
Again, I'm not asking whether Nanoha's actions were Good or Evil, I'm asking if they were Lawful.
That is a very possible message that Nanoha would send. In which case, why didn't she say so explicitly at that time?
When I get really angry (especially at someone, rather than angry in general), I go all emotionless as well. I'd never say (at least, not when I'm calm) that my judgement is not clouded during those times.
Just because Nanoha seems emotionless does not mean that she really is emotionless. I already mentioned it in the post that you linked to: when I'm angry like that, I get a sort of tunnel-vision. This does not mean that, if I were in Nanoha's place, I would pull out a Starlight Breaker. No, I'd do everything exactly by the book, or at least as much of the book as I remember. And if there's something else in the book that I forgot, which may be anything from a tiny detail to several whole chapters on training discipline, I'm not going to know about that.
Emotion does not exist in a binary on-off state. I'm of the opinion that Nanoha, at that time, had enough emotion overruling her logic to at least not tell Subaru why she had to watch Teana getting shot the second time. Logic, or at least enough time around human nature, would easily have told Nanoha that if she did something like that, the next look Subaru gives her would be one of abject hatred. Logic would also tell her that Subaru would be less receptive to any lessons taught in that state, directly after seeing her best friend shot down by her idol.
I'm not sure why people keep saying that if Nanoha had really been angry, Teana would not have survived. It is entirely possible (and indeed, is what I think happened) that Nanoha did get angry enough to stop thinking entirely clearly, and yet have enough cold logic remaining (indeed, more than she might have, since the anger burned away any feelings of forgiveness or friendship for the moment) to tactically bind Subaru while taking care of Teana.
I just want an answer to this question: if Nanoha was trying to send a message (to whomever), then why did she not mention that message explicitly, instead of by implication?
You know, in real life they don't always explain everything. You have to figure somethings out for yourself.
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 14:41
^
side note : you aren't oblidge to fully quote one's post heh ^^"
This is exactly the problem dkellis is pointing :let's say that Nanoha actions had the objective to teach them a lesson.
If you have to do that, why in the hell you do it without explaning it? :twitch:
this doesn't make sense at all, and i understand why dkellis is rather confused here (and i think he isn't the only one boggled by this lack of explanation to the RIGHT person)
I just want an answer to this question: if Nanoha was trying to send a message (to whomever), then why did she not mention that message explicitly, instead of by implication?
Most likely the talking part will come next episode. Right now was the 'action' part that was needed to convey the meaning of the message, the words will come later.
So why didn't they put the words in the same episode?
Dramatic effect. The ending would not have been so dramatic if it ended with people talking about the meaning of the message.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 14:44
Most likely the talking part will come next episode. Right now was the 'action' part that was needed to convey the meaning of the message, the words will come later.
So why didn't they put the words in the same episode?
Dramatic effect. The ending would not have been so dramatic if it ended with people talking about the meaning of the message.
And to make us speculate. Maybe?
That too, the more there is to speculate, the more people will be watching if they can go "Ah-HAH! I told you so!". It's a solid marketing strategy. :D
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 14:51
That too, the more there is to speculate, the more people will be watching if they can go "Ah-HAH! I told you so!". It's a solid marketing strategy. :D
Finally someone brings a lighter note to the discussion. I agree. It's gonna be funny if people around here start going "Ah-HAH! I told you so" :D :D :D :D :D :D.
This is exactly the problem dkellis is pointing :let's say that Nanoha actions had the objective to teach them a lesson.
If you have to do that, why in the hell you do it without explaning it? :twitch:
this doesn't make sense at all, and i understand why dkellis is rather confused here (and i think he isn't the only one boggled by this lack of explanation to the RIGHT person)
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/Nanoha_amb_smaller.jpg
You get it next episode, along with juicy flashback to tie it all together.
Like any good lesson that needs to be taught, a period of reflection is required to drive that message home. Whether or not Teana and Subaru have enough grey matter between them to get what Nanoha is trying to teach them is another matter entirely.
Like any good lesson that needs to be taught, a period of reflection is required to drive that message home. Whether or not Teana and Subaru have enough grey matter between them to get what Nanoha is trying to teach them is another matter entirely.
Well, I think it's a bit unfair to claim that Teana isn't intelligent. (Subaru, well, her very character archetype is that which puts actions before thought, so I'll leave it at that.) If nothing else, she does come up with some convoluted tactics and strategies.
This episode itself is a good example of how smart people can still do unbelievably stupid things.
Well, I think it's a bit unfair to claim that Teana isn't intelligent. (Subaru, well, her very character archetype is that which puts actions before thought, so I'll leave it at that.) If nothing else, she does come up with some convoluted tactics and strategies.
This episode itself is a good example of how smart people can still do unbelievably stupid things.
Given that she shows that she's willing to sacrifice others to further her goals; allows her emotions to get in the way of her judgment; doesn't listen to reason; is unable to be taught despite being given numerous chances to do otherwise; unable to plan and execute effectively; rarely gives thought to the consequences...
Hmmm... granted, it might be unfair to label her as stupid, but I see no evidence to suggest otherwise at this point in time. I once said Subaru was self-destructive, but come to think of it, Teana is worse: she is willing to do anything, anything, to prove that she and her brother's style of magic is strong. Even if that means getting herself or the others around her seriously injured.
Would you want that in your team?
Would you want that in your team?
Different types of "smart": I'd like someone with Teana's tactical prowess on my team, but not with her problems. To borrow a line regarding Batman, Teana doesn't just have issues, she has the trade paperbacks.
Hm... Bat-Teana. Teana-na-na-na-na-na-na. Never mind.
EDIT: I also think that either the comments about Teana's issues are a bit overblown, or the TSAB really has problems in its psych evaluation department.
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 15:33
I'm sure we'll get the explanations in the next episode. Maybe Nanoha wanted to give the shock of the experience first then explain after. Clearly Teana isn't getting her explanation until she regains consciousness. But no time like the present to give Subaru her answers.
Certainly Teana is an intelligent person or else she wouldn't have come up with the strategy. Problem is the other influences on her right now. The effect her dead brother has on her, feeling inadequate, and messing up in the last mission. Both smart and stupid people can do stupid things, the smart people though have the potential to do very dangerous stupid things.
Both smart and stupid people can do stupid things, the smart people though have the potential to do very dangerous stupid things.
True. There's that level of difference between doing stupid things, and doing stupid things creatively.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 15:39
True. There's that level of difference between doing stupid things, and doing stupid things creatively.
Creatively dangerous you mean.
I'm sure we'll get the explanations in the next episode. Maybe Nanoha wanted to give the shock of the experience first then explain after. Clearly Teana isn't getting her explanation until she regains consciousness. But no time like the present to give Subaru her answers.
Certainly Teana is an intelligent person or else she wouldn't have come up with the strategy. Problem is the other influences on her right now. The effect her dead brother has on her, feeling inadequate, and messing up in the last mission. Both smart and stupid people can do stupid things, the smart people though have the potential to do very dangerous stupid things.
True. There's that level of difference between doing stupid things, and doing stupid things creatively.
This I can agree on. And hopefully we get Nanoha's line of thought in the next episode, either directly or through one of the onlookers (such as Fate and/or Vita). Given the preview for episode 9, it is clear that Nanoha feels very bad for what she had to do, but I expect that she'll state clearly that she had no other choice, especially given the past events that will be brought up to tie in with the lessons learned.
In any rate, it is clearly the intentions of the anime directors to have both the main characters and the viewers reflect and think about what has happened at the end of the episode. If anything, a period of quiet reflection to think about the events has a more powerful effect of pushing the incoming message home than actually explaining it away beforehand. A cliffhanger, if you will.
KempoCatholic
2007-05-21, 16:56
Wow, I really can't keep up with this thread. :heh: I guess it's a bad time in the Nanoha fandom to be busy with RL stuff. After last episode's much more sedated discussion, this one seems to be shooting ahead quite nicely, and without moving off-topic to boot.
Anyway,I have to say that as much as I am looking forward to all the character development we're going to be getting next week, I hope we see some more activity from our villains as well. I'm hoping that this controversy with Teana and Nanoha's past doesn't end up just being a footnote in their training, but has real impact in the way that the story turns out. Specifically, I want the enemy or event that messed up Nanoha so badly to be something connected to the villains this season, instead of just being a driving force for her White Devil mode.
::edit:: spelling...
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 17:03
Wow, I really can't keep up with this thread. :heh: I guess it's a bad time in the Nanoha fandom to be busy with RL stuff. After last episode's much more sedated discussion, this one seems to be shooting ahead quite nicely, and without moving off-topic to boot.
Anyway,I have to say that as much as I am looking forward to all the character development we're going to be getting next week, I hope we see some more activity from our villains as well. I'm hoping that this controversy with Teana and Nanoha's past doesn't end up just being a footnote in their training, but has real impact in the way that the story turns out. Specifically, I want the enemy or event that messed up Nanoha so badly to be something connected to the villains this season, instead of just being a driving force for her White Devil mode.
::edit:: spelling...
Hopefully we'll see the real 'White Devil' in this season. Speaking of Devils, it just ocurred to me that maybe we'll see Nanoha go to the evil side in this season.
krisslanza
2007-05-21, 17:06
I'm actually kinda wondering if Fate might go bad if there is anything in that Project F that might make her so... That'd be interesting. But Nanoha going bad wouldn't be too bad either.
We need another ubar Nanoha vs Fate fight. It'd be EPIC!
Gosh. I WANNA SEE EPISODE 9 NAO >_<
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 17:10
My only fear about Project F is a possible way to introduce Dark Fate...
don't get me wrong, to be more serious : they can actually make a deus ex machina and introduce a controlled alicia (now if it ever happens, our lovely doctor merits DEATH)
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 17:10
I'm actually kinda wondering if Fate might go bad if there is anything in that Project F that might make her so... That'd be interesting. But Nanoha going bad wouldn't be too bad either.
We need another ubar Nanoha vs Fate fight. It'd be EPIC!
Gosh. I WANNA SEE EPISODE 9 NAO >_<
My reasoning is the following: We have three seasons. We have three Aces. 2 out of 3 were bad. Those two are Fate and Hayate. That leaves us Nanoha. C'mon, it would be interesting seeing Nanoha go all 'White Devil' (The real White Devil) on the TSAB, fighting for the villains (like Spaghetti). No?
Klashikari
2007-05-21, 17:12
this sounds tempting, but it would be conflicting hell a lot with the title and the essence of the series :heh:
what about a clone of her then, speaking of project F? :D
My reasoning is the following: We have three seasons. We have three Aces. 2 out of 3 were bad. Those two are Fate and Hayate. That leaves us Nanoha. C'mon, it would be interesting seeing Nanoha go all 'White Devil' (The real White Devil) on the TSAB, fighting for the villains (like Spaghetti). No?
That would allow the rookies to get the "plot-device-we-are-the-good-guys" type power-up and p0wn Nanoha right? I like it >: D
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 17:21
this sounds tempting, but it would be conflicting hell a lot with the title and the essence of the series :heh:
what about a clone of her then, speaking of project F? :D
Sounds interesting. Clones of all the TSAB! Now that's what I call creepy *Shudders* :heh: :heh: :heh:
That would allow the rookies to get the "plot-device-we-are-the-good-guys" type power-up and p0wn Nanoha right? I like it >: D
Um.....No no *waves hand*. That would give Fate and Hayate the chance to pay Nanoha back for helping them to walk into the light. :heh: :heh: :D :D
krisslanza
2007-05-21, 17:35
I like the ideas of Clones. Them doctor guy seems to like clones.
And correction:
Hayate was never bad. She didn't do anything because she wanted too, she was tricked into doing all of the 'bad' things she did.
My reasoning is the following: We have three seasons. We have three Aces. 2 out of 3 were bad. Those two are Fate and Hayate. That leaves us Nanoha. C'mon, it would be interesting seeing Nanoha go all 'White Devil' (The real White Devil) on the TSAB, fighting for the villains (like Spaghetti). No?
Yes, it would be interesting, but is almost impossible, because Satashi isn’t writing the plot, and this isn’t 6th Division (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3502592/1/).
The ones with most possibilities of turning to the bad side actually are Fate and Erio, all we know why, maybe controlled with some weird artifact related to project F(ate), if you want another Fate vs Nanoha fight that would be the best chance, but don’t expect too much from this average-poor quality anime.
-Haru
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 17:41
I like the ideas of Clones. Them doctor guy seems to like clones.
And correction:
Hayate was never bad. She didn't do anything because she wanted too, she was tricked into doing all of the 'bad' things she did.
Actually she was asleep inside the YnS while the program ran. Fate wasn't bad either. She was only trying to fullfil her mother's wish. But y'know what I mean! :heh: :heh: :heh:
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 17:43
True clones could be interesting, but what would they do about the devices. Evil copies of main characters can only do so much if they don't have the same firepower.
Certainly could be interesting if we have characters go bad. That guy was interested in Fate and Erio, maybe some brainwashing and having them turn against the remaining cast?
krisslanza
2007-05-21, 17:45
Well, I couldn't help but notice how similar Lutecia's device is to Caro's. That and when she used it, Caro's seemed to react.
Perhaps he can even copy Devices? *Shrug*
... Think I should spoiler what I just said? *Sweatdrop*
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 17:50
True clones could be interesting, but what would they do about the devices. Evil copies of main characters can only do so much if they don't have the same firepower.
Certainly could be interesting if we have characters go bad. That guy was interested in Fate and Erio, maybe some brainwashing and having them turn against the remaining cast?
Yeah, I also think it's more possible. Probably something connected with Project F will allow Spaghetti to control Elio and Fate, making Nanoha and Caro go nuts at him (I mean this in a FRIENDLY way.).
Deathkillz
2007-05-21, 18:00
Certainly could be interesting if we have characters go bad. That guy was interested in Fate and Erio, maybe some brainwashing and having them turn against the remaining cast?
tbh i cant see that happening...i think there is more of a chance that spaghetti is going to use fate chan and erio to create perfect clones himself...it could be that he is unable to create clones that are "complete" and using fate chan as a test subject might crack the code in making perfect clones...but ofc i wont mind seeing an army of fate chans :D
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 18:03
tbh i cant see that happening...i think there is more of a chance that spaghetti is going to use fate chan and erio to create perfect clones himself...it could be that he is unable to create clones that are "complete" and using fate chan as a test subject might crack the code in making perfect clones...but ofc i wont mind seeing an army of fate chans :D
So long as its not an army of Dark Fates, I don't mind at all :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh:.
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 18:05
I'd find a way to survive. For some reason an army of Fates doesn't seem like such a bad idea :).
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 18:08
I'd find a way to survive. For some reason an army of Fates doesn't seem like such a bad idea :).
Never! There should at most only be two of the same girl :D
krisslanza
2007-05-21, 18:14
We should clone Nanoha. Give the real one to Fate and give the other to Yuuno.
Then both fans of those pairings win!
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 18:24
We should clone Nanoha. Give the real one to Fate and give the other to Yuuno.
Then both fans of those pairings win!
Sounds like a good idea. Though knowing the fans they'd fight about who gets the 'original' Nanoha.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 18:26
We should clone Nanoha. Give the real one to Fate and give the other to Yuuno.
Then both fans of those pairings win!
Now THIS idea I like XD :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
kari-no-sugata
2007-05-21, 18:27
That would allow the rookies to get the "plot-device-we-are-the-good-guys" type power-up and p0wn Nanoha right? I like it >: D
Normally when a good-guy is forcibly turned to the dark side it's they who get a free power-up at the same time.
If you really want to take on Nanoha with her Be-friender Unlimited (with planet buster pack) upgrade to Raising Heart, be my guest :D
Fate: Hmm. Let's just change sides. (Now Nanoha will be all mine)
Hayate: Works for me. (I always prefered the evil mage look... heheh)
Deathkillz
2007-05-21, 18:28
are you guys mad? O.o;;
nevermind choosing to clone nanoha over fate chan...but giving the clones to yuuno!? hes nothing but ferret pancake you know...and with his spineless attitude hes better off dead :rolleyes: *hope he gets killed off for the sake of it*
krisslanza
2007-05-21, 18:30
I was going to say put a time bomb in the clone Nanoha and have it kill Yuuno but... I decided to not say that. |D
...
Whoops. =p
EDIT:
Plus we all know Fate is only going to fall for Nanoha! She barely talks to anyone else, whom isn't in some way related to her.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 18:33
Normally when a good-guy is forcibly turned to the dark side it's they who get a free power-up at the same time.
If you really want to take on Nanoha with her Be-friender Unlimited (with planet buster pack) upgrade to Raising Heart, be my guest :D
Fate: Hmm. Let's just change sides. (Now Nanoha will be all mine)
Hayate: Works for me. (I always prefered the evil mage look... heheh)
It'd be amusing to see the the three Aces of the Bureau change sides and fight against the organisation to which they originally belonged. If that happened, who could stop them I wonder. Hayate, Fate, Nanoha and the Wolkenritter all without Limiters :D :D :D :D.
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 18:40
It'd be amusing to see the the three Aces of the Bureau change sides and fight against the organisation to which they originally belonged. If that happened, who could stop them I wonder. Hayate, Fate, Nanoha and the Wolkenritter all without Limiters :D :D :D :D.
There can be a 3rd situation simlar to this too, Somehow the Aces gets framed and is been decleared criminals by TSAB. That put the Aces in somewhat a nertural side, with firepower to destroy have the universe :heh:, I pity the enforcers that may send against the Aces of this happens...
Man, what happened suki, so many posts and yet mostly on topic....:twitch:
Well it would be nice to see the Bureu's having to deploy their 1-3 hidden SSS mages in order to stop the renegades. :)
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 18:45
There can be a 3rd situation simlar to this too, Somehow the Aces gets framed and is been decleared criminals by TSAB. That put the Aces in somewhat a nertural side, with firepower to destroy have the universe :heh:, I pity the enforcers that may send against the Aces of this happens...
Man, what happened suki, so many posts and yet mostly on topic....:twitch:
That's a little too 'Gundam Seed'-like no? :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh:
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 18:46
Well it would be nice to see the Bureu's having to deploy their 1-3 hidden SSS mages in order to stop the renegades. :)
That will be fun to see, since I did read somewhere that its about only 5% of mid mage population ever achive AAA rank, and I assume over that the number gets expontinally smaller....
Maybe they can call in professionals, Kyoya and Miyuki prehaps :heh:
That's a little too 'Gundam Seed'-like no? :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh:
:heh: :heh: :heh: Its a good way to ensure Nanoha gets METEOR pack, :D
[shameless Claymore reference]
(in the background appear the shaddy shadows of TH3 3 ADMIRALS)
RF6 has gone astray... call in Numbers 1 through 6 and put an end to their miserable lives.
[/shameless Claymore reference]
Deathkillz
2007-05-21, 18:50
That's a little too 'Gundam Seed'-like no? :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh:
took the words right out of my mouth :heh:
screw the neutral side...if the TSAB declares war on nanoha and co then there will be no neutral side! *watches nanoha vaporize the whole building with a single attack*
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 18:52
[shameless Claymore reference]
(in the background appear the shaddy shadows of TH3 3 ADMIRALS)
RF6 has gone astray... call in Numbers 1 through 6 and put an end to their miserable lives.
[/shameless Claymore reference]
Um......We're forgetting here that they're: Two S+ mages; 1 SS magical Knight; and 4 Knights with ranks AAA; S; etc.. :heh: :heh:
EDIT: @Deathkillz: A lttile too exaggerated no? :heh:
This episode was...wow...really not what I expected. (Mostly like everyone else heh.)
Well, I've read through most posts. Regarding the fact some are saying Nanoha removed the limiter on Raging Heart...she actually didn't.
What she did is a "Mode Release" which means she basically turned RH back into a jewel, plain and simple. She kept her Barrier Jacket on, but only relied on her own power, not RH's.
And I won't get into the who's fault it is talk or else we won't be done until next month talking about it. :confused:
I doubt they are at the top of the top of the TSAB though. At the very least there should be 2 or 3 mages above Hayate in terms of magic rank (Acouss anyone?)... well that's just a personal guess. How about waging war against the rest of the RF? :p
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 18:56
I doubt they are at the top of the top of the TSAB though. At the very least there should be 2 or 3 mages above Hayate in terms of magic rank (Acouss anyone?)... well that's just a personal guess. How about waging war against the rest of the RF? :p
Uwa......Sounds dangerous :heh: :heh: :heh:
Darco_emp
2007-05-21, 18:58
Um......We're forgetting here that they're: Two S+ mages; 1 SS magical Knight; and 4 Knights with ranks AAA; S; etc.. :heh: :heh:
EDIT: @Deathkillz: A lttile too exaggerated no? :heh:
But in a fight all out against strong opperents with AOEs. Nanoha does indeed have an edge, even over stronger opperents, since as the fight drags on the more power SLB will have = Friends from all over the place....
Well, I've read through most posts. Regarding the fact some are saying Nanoha removed the limiter on Raging Heart...she actually didn't.
What she did is a "Mode Release" which means she basically turned RH back into a jewel, plain and simple. She kept her Barrier Jacket on, but only relied on her own power, not RH's.
That part was hell hard too notice, I was reminded by Kha durning the day after I watched the raw too, since for somereason when you hear release, it = limiter release :heh:
We are forgetting the Japanese's usual proficiency with foreign languages though :p
I doubt they are at the top of the top of the TSAB though. At the very least there should be 2 or 3 mages above Hayate in terms of magic rank (Acouss anyone?)...
Verossa, Hayate and Carim are all Ancient Velka, the last three users of that school of magic, and I'd assume all equal in mage rank (SS). Fate and Nanoha are both S+ and hybrid mages (Midchildan masters with Velka Cartridge-assisted boostups). This is before the limiters etc.
As far as I know, there has never been a mage with an SSS rank in the TSAB before.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 19:08
Verossa, Hayate and Carim are all Ancient Velka, the last three users of that school of magic, and I'd assume all equal in mage rank (SS). Fate and Nanoha are both S+ and hybrid mages (Midchildan masters with Velka Cartridge-assisted boostups). This is before the limiters etc.
As far as I know, there has never been a mage with an SSS rank in the TSAB before.
My personal opinion?
No point having a rank that nobody holds, right? ;)
Some Admiral out there is holding his/her cards...
My personal opinion?
No point having a rank that nobody holds, right? ;)
Some Admiral out there is holding his/her cards...
Probably.
Just to add, anon posted this a while back:
Hayate - Synthesis SS
Nanoha - Aerial S+
Fate - Aerial S+
Signum - Aerial S-
Vita - Aerial AAA+
Shamal - Synthesis AA+
Zafira - AA相当 (?)
Reinforce II - Synthesis A+
Subaru - Ground B
Teana - Ground B
Erio - Ground B
Caro - Ground C+
Mobile Section 6 is pretty uber.
My personal opinion?
No point having a rank that nobody holds, right? ;)
Some Admiral out there is holding his/her cards...
The way you emphasize "cards" makes me think that we'll be seeing the Admiral and her cosplay-fanatic video-cam-enabled 2IC. (Awesome for maybe two seconds, before breaking my brain.)
I figure that SSS rank mages may only exist in history, but they have existed before (if not in present day). As mentioned, not much point having a rank that nobody holds. Similarly, if there's a SSSS rank, then there may have been such a powerful mage in existence sometime.
Possibly after a while, power distinctions get fuzzy, especially when trying to compare a theoretical SSSSS mage and a SSSSSS mage or some such.
I mean, after the whole Over Nine Thousand thing, it doesn't matter how easily one can destroy the universe.
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 19:28
The way you emphasize "cards" makes me think that we'll be seeing the Admiral and her cosplay-fanatic video-cam-enabled 2IC. (Awesome for maybe two seconds, before breaking my brain.)
I figure that SSS rank mages may only exist in history, but they have existed before (if not in present day). As mentioned, not much point having a rank that nobody holds. Similarly, if there's a SSSS rank, then there may have been such a powerful mage in existence sometime.
Possibly after a while, power distinctions get fuzzy, especially when trying to compare a theoretical SSSSS mage and a SSSSSS mage or some such.
I mean, after the whole Over Nine Thousand thing, it doesn't matter how easily one can destroy the universe.
Maximum rank is SSS. SS is dangerous enough anyway :heh: :heh:
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 19:59
Also, there's a possibility that the SSS rank, are not meant for humans...
Seeing as how creatures have their own ranking as well...
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 20:26
Also, there's a possibility that the SSS rank, are not meant for humans...
Seeing as how creatures have their own ranking as well...
True, but I'm expecting the elusive SSS rank mages to have some involvement with the Three Legendary Admirals. And all other things considered, the Aces aren't even in their peak yet. I'm fairly positive that they'll get stronger in a few years.
It doesn't seem that SSS human mages are that big of a stretch though, given that we already have SS mages. It is just another step after all :p
Fuyu no Sora
2007-05-21, 20:31
True, but I'm expecting the elusive SSS rank mages to have some involvement with the Three Legendary Admirals. And all other things considered, the Aces aren't even in their peak yet. I'm fairly positive that they'll get stronger in a few years.
Well, they're not Legendary for nothing now are they? It wouldn't be surprising if those guys were SSS rank *shudders*
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 20:37
Well, they're not Legendary for nothing now are they? It wouldn't be surprising if those guys were SSS rank *shudders*
My point too. Hey, wouldn't it be pretty interesting if anybody of those three were still alive and well? Involvement of a completely superior authority in both rank and power would be pretty sweet. And by the way, could Graham possibly be one of them, given how powerful the Lieze twins were?
ichibaka
2007-05-21, 21:10
Good point. Never thought about that, but we all obviously know they're not invincible. Those who think so are taking the 'White Devil' jokes too seriously :heh: :heh: :heh:
Teana isn't even strong enough to take on a limited Nanoha and you want her to wipe out the TSAB full of experienced mages with ranks like: A, AA, AAA, etc? Please gimme a break. And yeah, she wants to be an Enforcer to fullfil her brother's dream. Not a bad inspiration unless it turns into madness. Rewatching the episode made me feel sorry for Teana, but I still believe she deserved what she got.
EDIT: Skane's right. The first time they took on the drones they were 15 already (Drats! I forgot about that too). So now we're back to wondering what caused Nanoha's injury.
It can't be the drone. First of all when they were 15 and first encountered them, Nanoha has :love: zettai ryouiki and obviously a more grown up face. At the scene of the accident her face still look young and she definitely still wore the old barrier jacket from A's.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 21:24
Here's the thing that I find funny about the admirals and/or other high ranking commanders...
They are by right the strongest of the mages (All the S-something ranks) ... But on the battlefield, they'll always be the ones sitting tight in the back seat giving out orders, never to participle in the fightning...
So whats the point of becoming that strong? :heh:
krisslanza
2007-05-21, 21:25
Same goes with Hayate. All that power... And she's got the DESK JOB!
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 21:28
Same goes with Hayate. All that power... And she's got the DESK JOB!
Unless Hayate turns out to be a warrior princess, ala Cornelia Li Bri- ... :heh:
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 21:31
Here's the thing that I find funny about the admirals and/or other high ranking commanders...
They are by right the strongest of the mages (All the S-something ranks) ... But on the battlefield, they'll always be the ones sitting tight in the back seat giving out orders, never to participle in the fightning...
So whats the point of becoming that strong? :heh:
Their lives are of higher priority?
Deux-Ex-Machina?
They're the best in giving commands?
Or maybe because they're the HEAD of the squad?
Same goes with Hayate. All that power... And she's got the DESK JOB!
She's the squad leader. And she's limited. :heh:
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 21:34
Their lives are of higher priority?
Deux-Ex-Machina?
They're the best in giving commands?
Or maybe because they're the HEAD of the squad?
It's EXACTLY because of those things. (Minus the 'Deux-Ex-Machina')
So if all you have to do is think and talk and stay safe, why do you have to be one of the strongest mages in all the land?
EDIT:
She's the squad leader. And she's limited. :heh:
She is the HEAD of RF6, not just a squad leader :heh:
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 21:37
It's EXACTLY because of those things. (Minus the 'Deux-Ex-Machina')
So if all you have to do is think and talk and stay safe, why do you have to be one of the strongest mages in all the land?
I guess it's because the with great rank comes great promotions.:heh:
And c'mon, she needs more influence in TSAB for the formation of her Cosplay Sentai someday.:heh:
EDIT:
But believe me, I'm not really happy about the absence of Hayate combat scenes. Ah well, it could make for a good entrance anyway, so I'm waiting.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 21:41
I guess it's because the with great rank comes great promotions.:heh:
And c'mon, she needs more influence in TSAB for the formation of her Cosplay Sentai someday.:heh:
Oh I have no problem with Hayate's 'dream' (I think...:uhoh:)
But I find it weird that a high mage ranking is required for a commander's position...
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 21:44
Oh I have no problem with Hayate's 'dream' (I think...:uhoh:)
But I find it weird that a high mage ranking is required for a commander's position...
Not really required. Hayate herself pursued the higher command position to hopefully make some changes in TSAB. Look at Nanoha and Fate, they're now more powerful than Lindy but they're still pretty much field mages. I guess it's more on the military ranking. The mage ranking only makes things easier.:heh:
Haven't seen the episode, but I heard Nanoha removed her limiter in this ep.
She disobeyed orders? I mean Hayate didn't give her the "Ok".
Nightengale
2007-05-21, 21:49
Hayate wanted the RF6 position. Surely, they all have their own choices at what they want to become, and naturally, the higher one rises, the more need is there for leadership and less time to flaunt magical powers.
Had Hayate played the same ballgame with Nanoha in the Air Force (I think) formerly, Nanoha would never had gotten the Ace of Aces monicker, since Hayate's said to be better than Nanoha.
Anyway, I probably would be absent for the next few days or something. My internet's dead, and right now I'm leeching off a very unstable wifi.
In most cases , higher ranking usually means more experienced so it would help em being in command .People like Hayate is an exception of course.
What is Lindy rank anyway?I never seen it mentioned actually.
Haven't seen the episode, but I heard Nanoha removed her limiter in this ep.
She disobeyed orders? I mean Hayate didn't give her the "Ok".
Nope not limiter release...it is just mode release which turn RH device mode back to jewel form .
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 21:52
In most cases , higher ranking usually means more experienced so it would help em being in command .People like Hayate is an exception of course.
What is Lindy rank anyway?I never seen it mentioned actually.
Yup. And Lindy is a rank S mage, by the way.
And I'm pretty sure Hayate is an excellent commander despite her age.:heh: She would have never get where she is now so quickly otherwise.
There can be a 3rd situation simlar to this too, Somehow the Aces gets framed and is been decleared criminals by TSAB. That put the Aces in somewhat a nertural side, with firepower to destroy have the universe :heh:, I pity the enforcers that may send against the Aces of this happens...
Man, what happened suki, so many posts and yet mostly on topic....:twitch:
I'm pretty sure the girls would just Accel Shooter (and the other custom variants) the Devices and warship engines, and burn some arms and legs to disable rather than to kill, Kira-style. :D
Who knows? This just might get them their Eternal. Now why isn't there fanart for Nanoha with METEOR pack?
Well it's pretty cool isn't it? The only problem is, I can't jump in and make a mess if there isn't a mess in the first place, so you don't see any of our scenarios, lames, spoofs, battles. While I certainly can do without the battles, I'm geting a little disturbed by the lack of scenarios for 2nd week in a row. :heh:
Here's the thing that I find funny about the admirals and/or other high ranking commanders...
They are by right the strongest of the mages (All the S-something ranks) ... But on the battlefield, they'll always be the ones sitting tight in the back seat giving out orders, never to participle in the fightning...
So whats the point of becoming that strong? :heh:
I guess it's because the with great rank comes great promotions.:heh:
And c'mon, she needs more influence in TSAB for the formation of her Cosplay Sentai someday.:heh:
EDIT:
But believe me, I'm not really happy about the absence of Hayate combat scenes. Ah well, it could make for a good entrance anyway, so I'm waiting.
For eveyone who's been discussing this, I'm pretty sure Hayate'd take to the field immediately when it is required, and that would mean Nanoha and Fate have their limiters off anf they are STILL getting pwned. Scary prospect, no? Well let's say somebody appears and Nanoha almost throws a fit.
Nanoha: !!!
Vita: You again!
Enemy: My, my! You survived my random potshot after all... Look like I lost my bet we made that day. And you're going to pay! *charges*
:uhoh:
Chaos2Frozen
2007-05-21, 22:04
Who knows? This just might get them their Eternal. Now why isn't there fanart for Nanoha with METEOR pack?
Cause Nanoha is "Destiny" :p
Well it's pretty cool isn't it? The only problem is, I can't jump in and make a mess if there isn't a mess in the first place, so you don't see any of our scenarios, lames, spoofs, battles. While I certainly can do without the battles, I'm geting a little disturbed by the lack of scenarios for 2nd week in a row. :heh:
Name something that could sound funny from the last two episodes... :heh:
(I suppose Zafira would be a good victim... But I'm already woking on him somewhere else...)
For eveyone who's been discussing this, I'm pretty sure Hayate'd take to the field immediately when it is required, and that would mean Nanoha and Fate have their limiters off anf they are STILL getting pwned. Scary prospect, no? Well let's say somebody appears and Nanoha almost throws a fit.
Another GSD flashback for me... Where despite being the commander of the ship, Yzak usually runs off to the frontlines whenever he can :)
...And leaves things to his second-in-command :heh:
Aaron008R
2007-05-21, 22:06
Cause Nanoha is "Destiny" :p
Though she hopefully won't get the same fate as that mech in the end.:heh:
Name something that could sound funny from the last two episodes... :heh:
(I suppose Zafira would be a good victim... But I'm already woking on him somewhere else...)
What's with the delay?:confused:
Another GSD flashback for me... Where despite being the commander of the ship, Yzak usually runs off to the frontlines whenever he can :)
...And leaves things to his second-in-command :heh:
Griffith?:heh:
My point too. Hey, wouldn't it be pretty interesting if anybody of those three were still alive and well? Involvement of a completely superior authority in both rank and power would be pretty sweet. And by the way, could Graham possibly be one of them, given how powerful the Lieze twins were?
That is a good point the Lieze twins where very powerful and a Familiar's power comes directly form it master. (I could be wrong if i am please correct me^^)
Same goes with Hayate. All that power... And she's got the DESK JOB!
She may have a desk job but at the same time she is more than ready for field work. And i seriously dough if the opportunity and need arose for her to get on to the battle field she would miss it.
FlareKnight
2007-05-21, 22:17
And I thought we had made Nanoha Providence....though really that mech didn't end up that well either...
The lack of scenarios really is a tradgety. Yeah tough finding funny stuff from the last two episodes but we must try. Maybe Hayate and Acous had a side conversation about the search for Chrono? I mean he must've hidden himself pretty well, they might be adding in search teams at this point.
Looks like Erio was joining Subaru for a bit in training with Vita. Was Fate just flying around with Caro or were they working on dodging skills while in the skies? Just think there's got to be more to talk about that's a bit lighter than Nanoha's...tough lessons.
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