Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series [Archive] - Page 3

DezoPenguin

2009-03-03, 22:15

The entire CONCEPT of society is many > one. Everyone sacrifices part of their individual interests for the common one.

That's true so far as it goes; human beings are biologically pack ("band" in anthropology-speak) animals and are programmed by instinct to group together for mutual survival.

However, there's a wide difference between various societies as to how much the society is what's important and how much the individual is. Speaking as an American...pretty much everything that's exceptional about American culture, both good and bad, boils down to the fact that the "frontier mentality" is buried solidly in the core of the American psyche; most Americans really believe that their country is there to serve them, and not the other way around, that when push comes to shove it's the individual's wants and needs that matter; the society as a whole is important only insofar as it helps people get what they want.

The TSAB, being a wholly artificial culture--indeed, a kind of meta-culture if you will, serving as an overall government of a variety of worlds with no doubt widely different cultures--could follow any kind of pattern, from a totalitarian autocracy forcing its way of being on worlds that are definitively subject to it, all the way to a loose confederation which only interferes in internal affairs when it becomes a cross-dimensional matter threatening more than a single world.

Honestly, what I truly suspect is that since we're never given a true picture of what the TSAB is like, in terms of government, laws, society, or other political-science and historical breakdown, but are instead only shown tiny glimpses here and there as it best suits the plot to enable GIANT BEAMSPAM!! and STUFF BLOWING UP!! that the writers at any given time are really just making it up as they go along, without any overarching plan--or without a lot of thought as to the Unfortunate Implications involved. I mean, I do not think it's likely that the design team sat down and said to themselves, "Okay, our sweetly innocent, passionately determined Magical Girl Superhero is actually going to be the iron boot of the Evil Interdimensional Empire." But scattershot writing done for the needs of the plot keep producing weird and inconsistent results that we, the Overobsessive Fans, are left to keep trying to cobble together.

Jimmy C

2009-03-03, 22:27

Ark's the only one overobsessive on the issue. I for one am willing to cheerfully ignore it because it is not part of the anime nor its complimentary sound stages and mangas. Although it isn't contradicted by them (yet!) either, that just gives me the privilege of dismissing it because I don't like it. I don't have to accept it like I do the TSAB's dismal combat performance.
Speaking of which, an organisation geared towards snatching mages from non-Administered worlds ought to be a lot more competent tactically than the Bureau. If for no other reason than to prevent said worlds from retrieving their mages. Or said snatched mages being pissed to the point where they make it their ambition to take control of the Bureau and turn it into a dictatorship.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-04, 01:04

For a person "willing to cheerfully ignore it", you sure show up a lot :)

As for the idea that they would try and destroy the quote, one wonders how they'll do that, even if they are actually interested.

The canon hierarchy really only comes into play in very direct contradictions of fact. Otherwise, a solution that does not include either is, as a rule, inadmissible. Mere inconveniences or your own conceptions are NOT an excuse to dismiss canon of any rank.

Due to this, the author arguably chose the single best point, in ALL of Nanoverse canon, to place her statement to define an aspect of the TSAB. As long as her novel is even somewhat canon, from its position and the way it was stated, it is virtually impregnable while ranging all of TSABpace.

For example, consider a scenario where the novel is not canon, but the presence of the law is stated by a character in an anime. This DOES NOT actually make it any easier to rationalize, so if you believe that a throw-out is the only solution, you will still have to throw something out. Ironically, despite both being "Alpha Canon" it is now very easy to throw out the law in this instance.

That the character claimed that the law existed is canon and irrefutable. That he is correct (not mistaken, not lying ... etc) is an interpretation and can (and has in other cases in the past) be disputed - I'm not saying you'll win this argument, just that it is valid. A rationalization attempt will most likely shaft his statement so completely it might as well have not been spoken. The Manga, Soundstages ... etc, are in even worse shape.

The problem is the fundamental weakness of subjective POV sources against the objective. However, the nature of the anime, manga, sound stages and the little booklet (the last by choice) is that this kind of information will have to be given by subjective sources (imagine trying to quickly express this law using visuals). The only avenue where this can be given from an objective POV is the novel, in the expository text. That's good "positioning".

"Deployment" has two basic types: expositional (general) and anecdotal (specific). The law in the novel is an example of a Expositional deployment - it sets out the basic rule and condition of the universe, without dictating the anecdotal.

When the exposition is from a subjective POV, it is possible to argue that he is wrong, and if the exposition itself is vague, it may find itself defined by the anecdotal. However, when it is firm and from an canonically objective POV, like here, all anecdotes can do is poke holes in it, without destroying the bulk.

The conclusion is that without spending substantial effort (expensive screentime), the creator won't be able to create the same firmness that she achieved by scribbling a paragraph in her novel. This firmness makes it difficulty to destroy.

In short, short of officially declaring the entire novel completely non-canon, one would wonder how they are going to do this. The best they can in a continuity-maintaining way do is to "isolate" it - for example, two months after the original series, the TSAB decides to abolish this law. But to destroy it?

Jimmy C

2009-03-04, 02:32

For a person "willing to cheerfully ignore it", you sure show up a lot

You're like that itchy spot that I can't help but scratch, even if I sometimes scratch a bit too hard and cause a bleed.
I'm willing to ignore the rule, it's your insistence that I have to accept it that keeps me replying to this issue. Stop insisting that we have to accept the novel as full canon and this won't be a problem any more.

As long as her novel is even somewhat canon, from its position and the way it was stated, it is virtually impregnable while ranging all of TSABpace.

Without the existence of the novel, nothing changes in the Nanoha anime series, all 3 of them. Without any anime episode, there's a gap in the story. Therefore, the novel is discardable, the anime is not. Acceptance of non-contradictory but unsupported elements in the novel are at my discretion. And this is one element I'm not accepting. At least, I won't pretend anime elements that I dislike don't exist.

That the character claimed that the law existed is canon and irrefutable. That he is correct is an interpretation and can be disputed

It'll be an interpetation if s/he says "We can't leave powerful mages on NAWs." What if s/he says, "TSAB regulation number xx says: ..." How's a quotation like that open to interpetation?

A rationalization attempt will most likely shaft his statement so completely it might as well have not been spoken.

That'll have to wait until such a line actually gets spoken, won't it? But perhaps I should take some comfort in the fact that you're essentially conceeding that hypothetical debate before it even happens. I mean, I'd have expected you to say that you'd rationalize that the statement supports the interpetation in the novel in such an event. Are you giving up before the fight or just rambling?

Keroko

2009-03-04, 04:48

The novel has already shown to be contradicting, therefore any information that is not supported by the anime should be scrutinized, and any information that contradicts discarded. It's the same as the upcoming movie. Whatever we see that contradicts is not canon, whatever doesn't contradict is. Rather then 'actually canon' (which StrikerS has shown the novel isn't) the novel is an alternate re-telling, like the movie. In other words: An AU.

Now, on to what was said previously, you say that there is only one exception. I count seven.

Not only was Nanoha allowed to stay, but so was Hayate, then Fate moved back to stay on the same unadministered planet and to top it off the Wolkenritter were also allowed to live their lives happily on a world the law says they shouldn't be on.

That's not one exception, that's seven. Six of which are former criminals. Four of which have been a menace to the multiverse for centuries and have plagued the Bureau ever since it's creation. You expect me to simply believe that a Bureau that pardons these people, allows them to live relatively quiet lives on a planet of their choosing, which also happens to be unadministered, and later gives them considerable ranking in their own system, potentially drags people out of their homes against their will?

How can you not see the blatant contradiction here?

The Bureau in the anime is depicted as a system that is anything but cold and heartless. Any dark things the bureau does are done in the shadow, but on the surface they are repeatedly shown to be a benevolent society.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-04, 05:59

Without the existence of the novel, nothing changes in the Nanoha anime series, all 3 of them. Without any anime episode, there's a gap in the story.

Actually, if you eradicate Ep10-13 of the OS, and replace it with the novel events, you would have no real gap in the story either. :)

If I dismiss the novel, I lose a lot of Linith and Precia backstory. I'll call that a gap.

You can have a complete story if you dump the Sound Stages, for example, too. How about it? Considering how the emphasis on new material is to reveal new areas, the idea of judging canonicity by whether losing the evidence will cause holes in other materials is a flimsy proposition?

Therefore, the novel is discardable, the anime is not. Acceptance of non-contradictory but unsupported elements in the novel are at my discretion. And this is one element I'm not accepting.

Never mind that this is a rather arbitrary way of handling the situation, but one must ask your particular reasons for "non acceptance" of this piece of "non-contradictory but unsupported" element? Is it solely because you simply don't believe the TSAB can have a bit of grey?

Quite frankly, the general motif that the TSAB can support such pragmatic policies is quite well established. While junior personnel are more idealistic based on Striker S, from Lindy's decision to leave Fate to the sharks (that's a good guy here!) to Graham's rather controversial gambit to Regius and the High Council's machinations. The latter brushed into illegality, but were nevertheless senior commanders, and show that TSAB zeitgeist hardly excludes these posssibilities. So even in an arbitrary selection, I just don't see why that particular berry should be left out.

It'll be an interpetation if s/he says "We can't leave powerful mages on NAWs." What if s/he says, "TSAB regulation number xx says: ..." How's a quotation like that open to interpetation?

Oh, lots. You see, the actual canon observation is that you saw him saying that. You can't refute this. For a real life link, if you saw me say "Under Article 7 of Regulation 345 of the Charter of the TSAB, the TSAB impresses mages from non-magical worlds", you can't snip out that little piece of reality, or deny I said that.

However, you know that the latter half of the sentence is under certain assumptions, not all of which you may agree with. And the first half is of course, total BS. This is the nature of all subjective POVs. Even the most apparently clear cut of statements, made by the most apparently competent personnel, can be wrong, lying, mis-stating opinion as fact, omitting important context ... etc.

The possibility, of course, exists for characters in-universe too, only that we generally have less basis to call them liars. Still, if you cannot rationalize the apparent difference, and have good enough evidence and reasoning, you can argue for it without denying any canon. Calling me a liar doesn't deny reality, but an interpretation of what I said, denying the reality that I said what I did IS a denial. See the distinction?

That'll have to wait until such a line actually gets spoken, won't it? But perhaps I should take some comfort in the fact that you're essentially conceeding that hypothetical debate before it even happens. I mean, I'd have expected you to say that you'd rationalize that the statement supports the interpetation in the novel in such an event. Are you giving up before the fight or just rambling?

Read my paragraph again. I started off by assuming the novel is not canon - this is so I can demonstrate a principle of subjective sources, rather than a assessment of chances in that scenario.

Keroko

2009-03-04, 06:27

Actually, if you eradicate Ep10-13 of the OS, and replace it with the novel events, you would have no real gap in the story either. :)

But you'll gain contradiction. StrikerS relies on events as they happened in the anime, not the novel.

Of course, the most ironic part of this debate is that someone who initially claimed dialog is the least accurate source of information, even in the same media, is now claiming it is higher when coming from a contradicting one.

I can't understand how someone who discards dialog and the booklets as a non-viable source of information (despite the fact that the booklets were made to explain the scenes) goes and says an alternate re-telling (do note the alternate) is a viable source despite the contradictions to the subject in question shown in the anime.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-04, 07:30

But you'll gain contradiction. StrikerS relies on events as they happened in the anime, not the novel.

The only link StrikerS has to the timeline of the original series is that set of disjointed shots. You can say they came from the novel, or even any other set of events for that matter, at least as well.

Of course, the most ironic part of this debate is that someone who initially claimed dialog is the least accurate source of information, even in the same media, is now claiming it is higher when coming from a contradicting one.

I can't understand how someone who discards dialog and the booklets as a non-viable source of information (despite the fact that the booklets were made to explain the scenes) goes and says an alternate re-telling (do note the alternate) is a viable source despite the contradictions to the subject in question shown in the anime.

Your inability to understand (let's leave "agree" on the table and settle for understanding) the underlying concepts behind dialogue and visuals, and why the visuals win out over the dialogue is not really my problem, but I'll give it yet another go anyway.First, all four of them are viable sources of information. Terming a source "non-viable" shows your poor understanding.

Let's head back to reality. If I say something, it is definite that I said something. But even if you heard everything I said exactly, it is not definite that what I said is true, or even that I believed what I said. Same if I write something for your reading. If I'm an authority on what I'm saying or writing, then it is more likely what I said or wrote is true, but still far from a certainty. It doesn't necessarily mean you should just ignore what I said, but the possibility that what I said was incorrect is constantly there.

That's the kind of status, as in-universe sources, that the dialogue and booklet has in canon reality. With me so far?

Now for visuals. Assuming you observed correctly, your observation is of reality itself. Do you understand why that is considered more reliable?

Expositional text is in a somewhat wierd status. However, it is similar to visuals in that it is immune to the subjective POVs and agendas of the in-universe characters. Do you see, thus, why it will be considered out of universe and more reliable?

The problem today is one where expositional text locks a policy in. The nature is the issue basically cannot be expressed with visuals, so it is Text all the way. Remember also that we are supposed to retain as much evidence as possible. The canon hierarchy (if one even really exists for MGLN) only comes into play when deciding which source has to be excised - otherwise we are to rationalize.

You see the problem? Even if the anime is higher, and even if it explicitly contradicts the novel on this point, the best it'll be able to do is to express it in dialogue, as an in-universe source (technically, there is an option of third-party expositional monologue within the show, but MGLN doesn't use that stuff - what monologue exists is also first-party by one of the characters!).

Remember that we are supposed to retain as much evidence as possible and that the speaker of any dialogue always has the chance of being wrong. It is always technically possible to rationalize the situation by saying the speaker was wrong, thus preserving both sources, and to preserve the evidence we are forced to come to this conclusion. See why I said the creator used the single best position for her little bomb?

The novel has already shown to be contradicting, therefore any information that is not supported by the anime should be scrutinized, and any information that contradicts discarded. It's the same as the upcoming movie. Whatever we see that contradicts is not canon, whatever doesn't contradict is. Rather then 'actually canon' (which StrikerS has shown the novel isn't) the novel is an alternate re-telling, like the movie. In other words: An AU.

Actually, the very limited set of shots (about 2) in the Conflict Region were so vague and contextless that they could belong anywhere (I've checked them again). The rest were before the conflict zone, where the only available continuity is the anime anyway.

But fine. Let's get ahead of ourselves a bit.

Now, on to what was said previously, you say that there is only one exception. I count seven.

Not only was Nanoha allowed to stay, but so was Hayate, then Fate moved back to stay on the same unadministered planet and to top it off the Wolkenritter were also allowed to live their lives happily on a world the law says they shouldn't be on.

As I've previously said, these show that the factors dominant in the ultimate decision was clearly not the criminal record, that's all.

If you were looking CLOSE, Fate moved back to the same "non-management world" as part of her assignment as a contract mage. In other words, she's technically there for work. After that, not only did Fate start serving, but Lindy apparently had to move herself to Earth. It is not hard to see how the rest was handled.

As for Hayate and gang, not only do they have CONNECTIONS, penetrate the real nature of the situation. They were allowed to stay on Earth, but woe is the price! Do you know what it is called when you gather up a few criminals and send them to the High Risk areas of your front to pay off their crimes in exchange for not throwing them into prison or executing them? Hint, it is not called "community service", but a Penal Battalion! Oh sure, it is very nice for a penal battalion, but one should not let such details jam their vision.

In short, note that anybody we see that ever got out of the trap had to have backing and be willing to serve the TSAB. Seeing that the most obvious purpose of that law was to grab good mages for themselves, it is not hard to imagine that they can be maganimous when they've achieved their goal.

That's not one exception, that's seven. Six of which are former criminals. Four of which have been a menace to the multiverse for centuries and have plagued the Bureau ever since it's creation. You expect me to simply believe that a Bureau that pardons these people, allows them to live relatively quiet lives on a planet of their choosing, which also happens to be unadministered, and later gives them considerable ranking in their own system, potentially drags people out of their homes against their will?

How can you not see the blatant contradiction here?

The Bureau in the anime is depicted as a system that is anything but cold and heartless. Any dark things the bureau does are done in the shadow, but on the surface they are repeatedly shown to be a benevolent society.

Actually, the Bureau in the anime is depicted as one where its senior personnel are cold pragmatists (sometimes behind a kind face, sometimes not), and one that is hanging by the thin thread of a very limited force of elite mages.

Remember Lindy's "warmth" as Fate was left to die against the JS?

Remember Graham's "benevolence" as he decided to use his homeworld as an experimental ground for what is supposed to be one of the worst Lost Logia? Oh, and the so called bright side's response to this "benevolence" was to give him a slap on the wrist? How about the warmth as we were w/i minutes of losing Japan (and probably a chunk of China and Korea to secondaries?)

Remember how they made a 9-year old choose between not seeing her newfound family ever again and service (they might have been nice about it but it doesn't change the base nature of the act)? Even Hayate was vaguely aware of how there were some very pragmatic considerations involved in her placements.

Remember the "warm" sympathy that Tiida received when he bit the dust w/o bagging the criminal?

Remember the HC and Regius' machinations. Yes, that was illegal, but they were top commanders as well, who spent their whole lives in TSAB. Hmm...

All these were definitely pragmatic decisions, rather than particularly warm-hearted ones. Which is, frankly, not at all a bad thing for the senior leadership of a interdimensional organization. The whole impressment law is just another in a long series of such decisions. It is clearly the intent of the author and an almost predictable result of the pressures and attitudes driving this organization.

I find it amazing that me, who basically uses SoD and considers author's intent rather unimportant, actually seem to have better sync with the author's thoughts than you, who keeps insisting on author's intent :)

Jimmy C

2009-03-04, 07:50

Actually, if you eradicate Ep10-13 of the OS, and replace it with the novel events, you would have no real gap in the story either.

Why stop there? I might as well replace eps 1-9 with the novel events as well and get the full novel continuity. Wait, now I have all those leftover anime episodes. I can assemble them into a full continuity too! Creating a few more continuities doesn't change the continuity of S1, and I see no reason why I need to accept your statement.

If I dismiss the novel, I lose a lot of Linith and Precia backstory. I'll call that a gap.

It makes no difference to me and lot of the people who never read it. Furthermore, I keep telling you, acceptance of non-contradictory but unsupported elements isn't an all-or-nothing deal. I can take two out of three elements and cheerfully chuck the third out the window.

Never mind that this is a rather arbitrary way of handling the situation,

It is quite arbitrary and I see no reason to accept or reject non-contradictory but unsupported elements based on more than "I like it" or "I don't like it".

Quite frankly, the general motif that the TSAB can support such pragmatic policies is quite well established.

Those examples actually happened in the show. The existence of this rule did not. All TSAB personnel act as if they ignore it or it doesn't exist. Just because they may be pragmatic, doesn't mean they'll have such a rule.
Also, the Bureau would have a fundamentally different tactical attitude if such a rule existed. One of the greatest hazards of this rule would be an entire organisation of non-adminstered mages that reject joining the Bureau. What would the Bureau do? It'd fight them. The Bureau may or may not win, but the encounter would force them to be tactical in combat. After all, they may fight to fight another organisation of non-adminstered mages one day. And it could be worse, those mages may have a fleet and/or army backing them just like the Bureau.
Now, going by the Bureau's performance in the series, does it look like they're trained to deal with such levels of resistance? I don't think so.

So even in an arbitrary selection, I just don't see why that particular berry should be left out.

That's your choice, stop insisting that I have to swallow this particular berry as well.

Even the most apparently clear cut of statements, made by the most apparently competent personnel, can be wrong, lying, mis-stating opinion as fact, omitting important context ... etc.

Ah yes, your famous condemnation of Chrono and co. when they were talking about the power of the Jewel Seeds. Do note, you were able to refute his statements because of scenes within the show itself.
You didn't mention that, when a story is made, the characters do more than talk. If a character says, "I'm going to Joan's party tonight" Eventually, we'll either see the party and the character is there, or we get a scene where he's somewhere else at that time. As a result, we get to evaluate the truthfulness of his statement.
We rarely have to analyze a character's words in complete isolation, when they say something, you can be sure something else will show up to either support or counter their statements eventually.
Therefore, your statement itself is omitting important context.
If someone had said the Bureau won't allow non-administered mages around, we wouldn't have to take their word for it. We would see scenes of the Bureau capturing non-administered mages, or we would see them not doing so and proving those words to be a lie. Not following up the characters' words with actions is bad storytelling. So rest assured, if the rule came up in the anime for real, you wouldn't have to just take the characters' words for it.

Keroko

2009-03-04, 08:34

The only link StrikerS has to the timeline of the original series is that set of disjointed shots. You can say they came from the novel, or even any other set of events for that matter, at least as well.

And that set of shots, though disjointed, clearly show that the fight above the water was settled the way it was in the anime.

First, all four of them are viable sources of information. Terming a source "non-viable" shows your poor understanding.

And yet you continuously label any other source then visuals as the false one, barring this case.

Let's head back to reality. If I say something, it is definite that I said something. But even if you heard everything I said exactly, it is not definite that what I said is true, or even that I believed what I said. Same if I write something for your reading. If I'm an authority on what I'm saying or writing, then it is more likely what I said or wrote is true, but still far from a certainty. It doesn't necessarily mean you should just ignore what I said, but the possibility that what I said was incorrect is constantly there.

Except that this isn't reality. This is a media product made to entertain. The issue of people being wrong is only applied when it becomes a matter of plot. If not, then the explanations of the characters are true. If we throw the 'you know, they might be wrong/lying' on anything a character says, then there is no way anything can be accepted as true and everything falls into chaos. For example, I could just as easily say that everything that was said about that law was 'a lie to trick Nanoha into thinking she has no other choice'

See how that gets us nowhere?

That's the kind of status, as in-universe sources, that the dialogue and booklet has in canon reality. With me so far?

Ah, good that you mentioned the booklets, as they don't even count as 'being wrong' considering they are out-of-universe explanations on how things work in-universe. Even the already hard to believe 'characters could be wrong' argument does nothing towards the booklets, as they are the Word of God saying "This is how it works."

Despite your constant insistence to do so, saying the booklets are inaccurate is like picking up a dictionary and saying everything it contains is wrong.

Now for visuals. Assuming you observed correctly, your observation is of reality itself. Do you understand why that is considered more reliable?

Er, no, I'm observing an animation. I'm not observe reality. If I were watching a camera recording of an actual event, you would have a point. I'm not. The history of animation has shown us many times, and is in fact still showing us many times, that visuals ain't that reliable. (http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/02/26/minami-ke-okaeri-quality-is-legend/)

Expositional text is in a somewhat wierd status. However, it is similar to visuals in that it is immune to the subjective POVs and agendas of the in-universe characters. Do you see, thus, why it will be considered out of universe and more reliable?

This is, of course, completely ignoring the fact that the booklets are expositional text. With the added bonus that their primary purpose is to inform first, entertain later. The novel, on the other hand, is the reverse. It's primary purpose is to entertain, the secondary purpose to inform.

Now, before misunderstandings rise, I should note that the hierarchy of informing is different from a canon hierarchy, as this is purely a hierarchy that establishing which source is the most informing, rather then which one is the most canon.

Had all sources been complimentary, the current hierarchy of how informing a media is would be thus:

Booklets > Novel > Manga/Sound Stages/Anime.

The booklets were created with a primary purpose to explain the things that happen in the anime. Thus everything they tell us is the creator telling us "This is how it works"

The novel would have been directly under the booklets, by virtue that a written source can contain much more descriptive information then a spoken source. It stands under the booklets because it's primary purpose is to entertain, unlike the booklets, who's primary purpose is to inform.

Then come the other media. All are created with entertainment first and foremost in mind, and all lack the descriptive power of the former two (even manga, despite being paper-based, uses images to describe more then words), and so will have to take other measures to give information. Anime by visuals, manga by images, and Sound Stages by extended vocal dialog. One could theoretically argue either of the three to be higher, but then the other sides could provide equally valid counter-arguments.

Now the problem here is that this hierarchy is broken. The novel is not a complementary source, but an alternate one. It drastically changes events in the timeline, becoming an alternate telling. This shifts it's position from the second most accurate source to being the last, which means that the other sources are consulted first, and whatever contradicts labeled and non-canon. Whatever is not contradicted by the other sources is accepted.

The problem today is one where expositional text locks a policy in. The nature is the issue basically cannot be expressed with visuals, so it is Text all the way. Remember also that we are supposed to retain as much evidence as possible. The canon hierarchy (if one even really exists for MGLN) only comes into play when deciding which source has to be excised - otherwise we are to rationalize.

And this rationalizing includes deciding which events are considered canon or not. We can keep what doesn't contradict and ditch that which does. In this case, the events as portrayed show that the TSAB has no qualms letting mages live their lives on their home world, as they even let powerful criminals they have been hunting for years live on an unadministered planet. This shows nothing of the harsh approach the novels suggest, and in fact only contradicts it.

The event is contradicted. The event discarded is the one that contradicts the main line. In this case, the one from the novel.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-04, 09:47

And that set of shots, though disjointed, clearly show that the fight above the water was settled the way it was in the anime.

I see a mixture of scenes and shots that could come from almost anywhere. I see a couple of exchanges, then a SB and a splash as the SB hit the water. Umm, really. If by "settled the way it was in the anime" you mean Nanoha won well then Nanoha won in the novel as well (and you don't even see that explicitly, so short and disjointed were the frames...). I can even say they did not come from either the novel or the anime and one would be hard pressed to disprove the notion, so out of context they were...

And yet you continuously label any other source then visuals as the false one, barring this case.

I wonder how can a contradictory visual be even theoretically constructed of our current issue.

Except that this isn't reality. This is a media product made to entertain. The issue of people being wrong is only applied when it becomes a matter of plot. If not, then the explanations of the characters are true. If we throw the 'you know, they might be wrong/lying' on anything a character says, then there is no way anything can be accepted as true and everything falls into chaos. For example, I could just as easily say that everything that was said about that law was 'a lie to trick Nanoha into thinking she has no other choice'

See how that gets us nowhere?

Actually it does. We assume that they are telling us the truth, BUT we are constantly alert to the possibility that they are wrong. We do this in real life, too. Or do you let someone's words override what you are clearly seeing?

Ah, good that you mentioned the booklets, as they don't even count as 'being wrong' considering they are out-of-universe explanations on how things work in-universe. Even the already hard to believe 'characters could be wrong' argument does nothing towards the booklets, as they are the Word of God saying "This is how it works."

Despite your constant insistence to do so, saying the booklets are inaccurate is like picking up a dictionary and saying everything it contains is wrong.

Yes, you are CORRECT that booklets can potentially have the power of expositionary text. However, as I've explained to you, this particular set of booklets have given up their right to that position by making it clear they are in-universe opinions rather than omniniscent out-of-universe facts - a source has the right to do that too, despite your protestations or desires. This choice was probably made to improve immersion, but it has a price too.

(Besides, even if they WERE expositionary text, they are generally so poor in specificity that they would just get defined by the anime).

Er, no, I'm observing an animation. I'm not observe reality. If I were watching a camera recording of an actual event, you would have a point. I'm not. The history of animation has shown us many times, and is in fact still showing us many times, that visuals ain't that reliable. (http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/02/26/minami-ke-okaeri-quality-is-legend/)

Unfortunately, this is not how canon works. You can't just deny it by saying that there's a vague possibility of error, by appealing to other anime at that. You have to show specific errors right at hand and you have to demonstrate a better solution.

Besides, even if I say it is say the analogue of a police sketch, it will still retain its out-of-universe advantages and will at least be as powerful as the expositional text, plus having a higher score in specificity.

Now, before misunderstandings rise, I should note that the hierarchy of informing is different from a canon hierarchy, as this is purely a hierarchy that establishing which source is the most informing, rather then which one is the most canon.

Quite frankly, this hierarchy is totally arbitrary, seeing that both media are ultimately designed to entertain by means of informing us of certain events of the universe. The division of role is entirely un-necessary.

If anything, I can argue just as easily that the booklets are still on the bottom. Because all the other sources describe the actual events, while the booklet only describes theory without necessarily having any connection. Maybe Divine Buster Extension fires really fast in a lab and that was what was recorded, while in real life (well we all saw it, come on, we all thought it).

The fact they are written as "dialogue" rather than expositionary stuff seals their fate. Even if you grant them the highest canon, it is just very very canon that the writer thought so. The first brush with the contradictory "reality" introduced by the other media will kill it.

Then come the other media. All are created with entertainment first and foremost in mind, and all lack the descriptive power of the former two (even manga, despite being paper-based, uses images to describe more then words), and so will have to take other measures to give information. Anime by visuals, manga by images, and Sound Stages by extended vocal dialog. One could theoretically argue either of the three to be higher, but then the other sides could provide equally valid counter-arguments.

Actually, the ability to use visuals is a HUGE advantage over text, certainly spatially related questions (speed of rounds ... etc).

Now the problem here is that this hierarchy is broken. The novel is not a complementary source, but an alternate one. It drastically changes events in the timeline, becoming an alternate telling. This shifts it's position from the second most accurate source to being the last, which means that the other sources are consulted first, and whatever contradicts labeled and non-canon. Whatever is not contradicted by the other sources is accepted.

Since it came later than your primary source, and the StrikerS redetermination is ambigious, wouldn't the later source become the Primary Reading, and knock the older source off into the Obsoleted status?

But all right, go ahead.

And this rationalizing includes deciding which events are considered canon or not. We can keep what doesn't contradict and ditch that which does. In this case, the events as portrayed show that the TSAB has no qualms letting mages live their lives on their home world, as they even let powerful criminals they have been hunting for years live on an unadministered planet. This shows nothing of the harsh approach the novels suggest, and in fact only contradicts it.

The event is contradicted. The event discarded is the one that contradicts the main line. In this case, the one from the novel.

Actually, canonicity means that you are OBLIGED to keep what doesn't contradict, and only delete those that directly contradict (going by priority order). If the only thing it is is contradicting is your sensibilities or assumptions, it is your sensibilities that need change. Having to throw something away is actually a failure in rationalization.

For example, it is solely your imagination that the TSAB necessarily uses harsh measures first, even when soft measures are reeling our heroines in like dumb fish.

Further, it is fundamentally impossible for specific exceptions to "directly contradict" a rule, unless the number of times the rule has been invoked is abysmally small.

Why stop there? I might as well replace eps 1-9 with the novel events as well and get the full novel continuity. Wait, now I have all those leftover anime episodes. I can assemble them into a full continuity too! Creating a few more continuities doesn't change the continuity of S1, and I see no reason why I need to accept your statement.

Well, that would ruin the principle of maximum retention, since the coverage of the novel for Ep1-9 is thin to near non-existence.

It makes no difference to me and lot of the people who never read it. Furthermore, I keep telling you, acceptance of non-contradictory but unsupported elements isn't an all-or-nothing deal. I can take two out of three elements and cheerfully chuck the third out the window.

I'll strongly disagree. Canonical status is fundamental to a source

Those examples actually happened in the show. The existence of this rule did not. All TSAB personnel act as if they ignore it or it doesn't exist. Just because they may be pragmatic, doesn't mean they'll have such a rule.

Other than the fact they are SAID to have such a rule?

You are right that pragmatism does not necessarily lead to such a rule, but their pragmatism should mean that the fact that such a rule exists should hardly be particularly shocking, repulsive ... etc.

Also, the Bureau would have a fundamentally different tactical attitude if such a rule existed. One of the greatest hazards of this rule would be an entire organisation of non-adminstered mages that reject joining the Bureau. What would the Bureau do? It'd fight them. The Bureau may or may not win, but the encounter would force them to be tactical in combat. After all, they may fight to fight another organisation of non-adminstered mages one day. And it could be worse, those mages may have a fleet and/or army backing them just like the Bureau.
Now, going by the Bureau's performance in the series, does it look like they're trained to deal with such levels of resistance? I don't think so.

Actually, the amount of tactics you'll learn in combat depends a lot on what your opponents are. Iraq fought Iran for 8 years but what they learnt there didn't help them much against the Coalition.

Probably what they'll do is surround this group of non-management mages with their own. Middies don't know much about tactics, but they seem able to do this (Ep 5 A's) pretty well. Then they'll send one of their elite mages.

Ah yes, your famous condemnation of Chrono and co. when they were talking about the power of the Jewel Seeds. Do note, you were able to refute his statements because of scenes within the show itself.

Yup. It was pretty blatant, wasn't it? But then, it wasn't something we didn't do for "The Die is Cast" as well.

You didn't mention that, when a story is made, the characters do more than talk. If a character says, "I'm going to Joan's party tonight" Eventually, we'll either see the party and the character is there, or we get a scene where he's somewhere else at that time. As a result, we get to evaluate the truthfulness of his statement.

Sometimes you do get the fortune of this. Other times, you don't.

We rarely have to analyze a character's words in complete isolation, when they say something, you can be sure something else will show up to either support or counter their statements eventually.
Therefore, your statement itself is omitting important context.
If someone had said the Bureau won't allow non-administered mages around, we wouldn't have to take their word for it. We would see scenes of the Bureau capturing non-administered mages, or we would see them not doing so and proving those words to be a lie. Not following up the characters' words with actions is bad storytelling. So rest assured, if the rule came up in the anime for real, you wouldn't have to just take the characters' words for it.

Yet that's pretty much what happened in the novel. Two paragraphs marked the beginning & end of this whole little saga.

Jimmy C

2009-03-04, 10:46

I see a mixture of scenes and shots that could come from almost anywhere.

Every frame of the narration can be attributed to a frame from S1 or A's. Therefore, they came from the prior seasons.

If by "settled the way it was in the anime" you mean Nanoha won well then Nanoha won in the novel as well

And which battle would you be referring to here, hmm?

Well, that would ruin the principle of maximum retention, since the coverage of the novel for Ep1-9 is thin to near non-existence.

That's only due to your stubborn and unneccessary assertion that we must somehow shoehorn the novel in its entirely into the anime. By disposing of that requirement, the inclusion of novel elements are optional. All of them.

I'll strongly disagree. Canonical status is fundamental to a source

And I disagree with what you consider "canon" along with your insistence that I have to accept your criteria for determining what should be canon for the Nanoha continuity. I have my own that I think is perfectly acceptable.

Other than the fact they are SAID to have such a rule?

In a continuity that is not the anime continuity. It bears striking similarities sure, but so many contradictions as well. So perhaps it may have a few things in common with the anime, but I'm not obligated to accept any unsupported elements and will dismiss them at my discretion.

Probably what they'll do is surround this group of non-management mages with their own. Middies don't know much about tactics, but they seem able to do this (Ep 5 A's) pretty well. Then they'll send one of their elite mages.

Which shows that they prefer to overwhelm rather than outfight their enemies. Not a bad idea when you have the numbers on your side. But if they're snatching mages from NAWs willy-nilly, those mages will eventually band together and the Bureau's numbers won't be enough. The Bureau should have met a situation like this before now, but they're not geared to fighting at equal force levels.

Sometimes you do get the fortune of this. Other times, you don't.

Since we can't be sure which other works of fiction we've both have read or seen, show me an example of a character saying something that wasn't followed up eventually in Nanoha, any season.

Yet that's pretty much what happened in the novel. Two paragraphs marked the beginning & end of this whole little saga.

After some many posts, you should know better than to use the novel on me. I can dismiss it and I so choose.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-04, 11:12

Every frame of the narration can be attributed to a frame from S1 or A's. Therefore, they came from the prior seasons.

SoDwise, there are only scenes that are apparently taken at the time of the BoD-incident and the time of the PT-incident.

That's only due to your stubborn and unneccessary assertion that we must somehow shoehorn the novel in its entirely into the anime. By disposing of that requirement, the inclusion of novel elements are optional. All of them.

Now, justify why it is a good idea to "dispose" of the requirement. I can easily point out my method maintains the largest possible pool of information in a situation where it is already scarce. It is also free of arbitrariness.

In a continuity that is not the anime continuity. It bears striking similarities sure, but so many contradictions as well. So perhaps it may have a few things in common with the anime, but I'm not obligated to accept any unsupported elements and will dismiss them at my discretion.

What a wonderfully arbitrary attitude.

Which shows that they prefer to overwhelm rather than outfight their enemies. Not a bad idea when you have the numbers on your side. But if they're snatching mages from NAWs willy-nilly, those mages will eventually band together and the Bureau's numbers won't be enough. The Bureau should have met a situation like this before now, but they're not geared to fighting at equal force levels.

One should hope that given time, the Bureau can band together more mages than one world is likely to be able to crunch out.

Keroko

2009-03-04, 11:14

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-04, 14:34

Criminy, stop responding separately to every two sentences. Makes it tough to read!

Assuming that Strikers isn't in continuity with the other anime series is a huge leap. I'd demand affirmative evidence before I went in with that, not just "it doesn't explicitly claim that they're absolutely in the same continuity".

At any rate, it's clear that whatever the Bureau's policies, they're willing to bend 'em like pretzels when it's necessary. Fate didn't get prosecuted because she was a poor, misled little girl who was genuinely sorry, and good people were taking care of her by that point. Hayate didn't get prosecuted because she was a poor little girl in terrible circumstances, and good people were taking care of her by that point. Graham didn't get prosecuted because... well, because it would have been really embarrassing to admit that your admiral was setting up a little girl to die, and fragging your own troops to bring it about.

It's entirely possible that the TSAB might have been stricter with Nanoha if she had been "go away and leave me alone" (or, if in saving Fate's life, she turned out to have been wrong, heh.) As it so happened, that was not a problem. Bluntly, I suspect it's very rarely a problem. If you're on a world where magic is not generally known to exist, and it turns out that you've got special powers, and someone finds you and says "we'd like to work with you to let you get stronger, and we'd be happy if you didn't go on TV with what you can do or anything, but it's okay to tell your friends, and incidentally you can commute to our magical future land and get a job in our not-really-an-army when you get older!"... I suspect that the pass rate for that is near 100%, and that the border cases are mostly going to represent people that want to do things with their power that the TSAB wouldn't approve of - i.e. would have to be stopped anyway.

I'll wager that the "serious" part would have to do with revealing magic to the public of a non-administrated world with no magical culture - old Prime Directive problem, right?

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-03-04, 15:29

Criminy, stop responding
It's
separately to
Called
every two sentences.
Quote
Makes it tough to
Omni-
read!
-slash.

When abused, it can be used to take statements out of context and attack them as individual statements. It's an infractionable offense on some forums.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-04, 19:15

Almost dinner, so no real time for a full reply, but Ark you're contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that we need to save the maximum amount of data, but on the other hand you're saying that one of the sources needs to be excluded. When we suggest to keep both, and only discard what contradicts you say that we can't do that... which is it?

Perhaps you should quote where I said we need to exclude. Oh, I entirely agree with the policy of discarding what contradicts (it is called Maximum Data Retention after all), just that you are discarding what doesn't have to be discarded due to the most minor of problems.

Wild Goose

2009-03-04, 22:48

All forms of deciding what to retain and not what to retain are arbitrary, arkhy.

Isn't it sad, Sacchin? He can't watch magical girl anime anymore~ Without obsessing over a detail that doesn't appear in the anime. Oh and apparently he's now, in addition to being the expert on Nanoha whom all should bow down to, also the master of knowing what's in Yandere Huckbenger's mind.

All hail, professor Ark. All hail the self-confessed hypocrite, who perpetually contradicts himself. (ark has mentioned that he is the "Math Professor" of Nanoha. He has also admitted to being half-assed, and has mentioned that being half-assed is the greater hypocrisy. And he keeps contradicting himself. All these are true as to my knowledge, so I swear, etc etc. I can prepare a statutory declaration on this if anyone's interested.)

With that out of the way. (An ad hominem is an attack on the person's character. If however, a person comments on someone sarcastically, calling it as he sees it, I fail to see how that is a personal attack.)

As a fanfic author, the decision of how much canon to retain/use varies from each author. Some authors will try as much as possible to fit everything within continuity. Some will not, knowing that certain things have to be stretched here and there (which is why most OFM writing I've done and not finished takes place before or after StrikerS, not during). When it comes to an AU, the author can, if they choose, throw things out the window.

2nd: to force the novel on people who have not read it and insist that it is canon is one's choice. However, to the vast majority of viewers, the most accessible things to them are the anime, manga, and soudstages (mind you the last is iffy with Nagumo quitting...). Also, recall your insistence of the show and etc etc etc, ark. If that is the case, then should not the anime trump the manga?

This is as I see it a contradiction because I mentioned to you the case of Macross Frontier and you were going, "No, anime > tech specs and printed info" - essentially saying that printed works are of lesser weight then the anime. Then you are repeating that the novel is of equal standing to the anime. Which is which?

3rdly, I'd like to refer you to the novelisations of Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam, and Char's Counterattack. All three differ from the animated versions. Bandai has not put out any official statements regarding the canonity of the novels. But everyone, from Mark Simmons all the way to Yoshiyuki Tomino, treats them as separate continuities and universes. So why is it that the Nanoha novel is so special?

Or take Owari Day By Day, one of the Full Metal Panic novels that was adapted into FMP: The Second Raid. Which do you decide is canon? The FMP novels have backstory and details missing from the anime. But the events differ, and rationalising them is difficult. Are both fitting in? Or are they seperate universes? (To wit: novel timeline is 2 years from start until Dancing Very Merry Christmas, while anime timeline is 1 year. How is that reconciled?)

Lastly: about arbitrariness, YOU, ark, are likewise being arbitrary by your insistence on retaining the novel.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-05, 00:58

All hail, professor Ark. All hail the self-confessed hypocrite, who perpetually contradicts himself. (ark has mentioned that he is the "Math Professor" of Nanoha. He has also admitted to being half-assed, and has mentioned that being half-assed is the greater hypocrisy. And he keeps contradicting himself. All these are true as to my knowledge, so I swear, etc etc. I can prepare a statutory declaration on this if anyone's interested.)

Nice out of context assertions. How about you find each and every one of these assertions and link to them, so people can at least read them in context?

With that out of the way. (An ad hominem is an attack on the person's character. If however, a person comments on someone sarcastically, calling it as he sees it, I fail to see how that is a personal attack.)

Considering that you've just called me a hypocrite up there, I fail to see how that is NOT a personal attack.

As for obsession, well, I don't really even place much thought into the law. I know it exists but it doesn't affect me any more than a source that said "Nanoha likes red shoes". If anything, I'll argue that certain denizens are much more bothered (and thus obsessed).

As a fanfic author, the decision of how much canon to retain/use varies from each author. Some authors will try as much as possible to fit everything within continuity. Some will not, knowing that certain things have to be stretched here and there (which is why most OFM writing I've done and not finished takes place before or after StrikerS, not during). When it comes to an AU, the author can, if they choose, throw things out the window.

The problem is, this is not the FanFic thread, but the discussion thread.

2nd: to force the novel on people who have not read it and insist that it is canon is one's choice. However, to the vast majority of viewers, the most accessible things to them are the anime, manga, and soudstages (mind you the last is iffy with Nagumo quitting...).

Since you supposedly at least played with some law at one time, there is IIRC a principle that ignorance of the law is not a defense. And let's not even discuss being INFORMED about the law and continuing to break it.

Then there is reality. Reality does not change based on your knowledge zone. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Also, again, after you are informed something exists, to insist it doesn't is delusional.

Then there's canon. Remember that scientific analysis of sci-fi and anime uses the same principles as real life.

To be ignorant of a certain piece of rare canon is an inevitable event. However, when you are informed of it... there's nothing to do but change some preconceptions.

In debating, the enemy having a piece of canon that you don't know is a dangerous situation. I know that because I was often at a terrible disadvantage against opponents who live in America and had relatively easy access to esoteric Star Wars and Star Trek material. All you can do is take whatever they throw at you and try and do your best with it. But this is no excuse to deny the existence of the piece of canon.

Also, recall your insistence of the show and etc etc etc, ark. If that is the case, then should not the anime trump the manga?

Considering we are discussing the novel and anime, how the manga came in is rather strange.

This is as I see it a contradiction because I mentioned to you the case of Macross Frontier and you were going, "No, anime > tech specs and printed info" - essentially saying that printed works are of lesser weight then the anime. Then you are repeating that the novel is of equal standing to the anime. Which is which?

Let's put it this way. I have a tech sheet on a real world fighter. According to said tech sheet, the fighter top speed is at Mach 2.

Now, let's go to real life. I observe that fighter flying at Mach 3. Assuming my observation is correct (and with anime and film, you have the advantage of reobserving the exact same event, so it is unlikely that you'll make a mistake), clearly something is wrong with straight reading the tech sheet, no matter who made it. Maybe that was the supercruise speed or the speed with load or whatever. But none of that is known because it is not printed. All we know is that the supposedly Mach 2 fighter flew at Mach 3.

Now, suppose I made some sketches of that same scene (rather than photographs or film). However, you are to assume that I sketched the event accurately (analogue to canonical status). Now, given this assumption, we have much the same ending.

Do you understand the theoretical basis for the inferiority of the tech specs? Now, think about what's similar between the novel's expositionary text and the sketch versus the tech specs.

3rdly, I'd like to refer you to the novelisations of Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam, and Char's Counterattack. All three differ from the animated versions. Bandai has not put out any official statements regarding the canonity of the novels. But everyone, from Mark Simmons all the way to Yoshiyuki Tomino, treats them as separate continuities and universes. So why is it that the Nanoha novel is so special?

Who are these "Mark Simmons" and "Yoshiyuki Tomino" people? I suppose you are trying to appeal to authority, but it kind of bounces when your opponent doesn't know who they are?

Or take Owari Day By Day, one of the Full Metal Panic novels that was adapted into FMP: The Second Raid. Which do you decide is canon? The FMP novels have backstory and details missing from the anime. But the events differ, and rationalising them is difficult. Are both fitting in? Or are they seperate universes? (To wit: novel timeline is 2 years from start until Dancing Very Merry Christmas, while anime timeline is 1 year. How is that reconciled?)

At least you are talking about a series now I actually have some familiarity in, even though I'll admit I hadn't scaled FMP battle scenes :)

I suppose you can argue by origin or by time for this one. For the purposes of analogizing the situation, however, all that is essential is that whoever is on top, we'll dredge up everything not specifically contradicted by the top source. If two interpretations are possible of any particular scene, one that contradicts and one that rationalizes, we take the latter, even if it may not be the one that sounds the most "natural" using only the primary source. And so on.

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-03-05, 01:15

And people might wonder why I blocked ark. :rolleyes:
If all he does is piss you off, why haven't you blocked him yourself? His primary 'battle tactic' is to drag you into a tangent and then argue around in a circle by leading you around with nitpicks and counter nitpicks until you're too worn out and mentally exhausted to actually take out his primary argument that was the original topic of the event. Even I, with all my free time, don't have that kind of time when I've got so much more PRODUCTIVE things to do.

You know what awaits every time you travel down this road into a debate with him. Yet you STILL drive down it as if you expect it to be Differrent this time around. I have a name for this kind of activity...

Predictable Target.
Just like this player that attacked me twelve consecutive times in stellar frontier and died to the same twelve consecutive manuevers each and every time he engaged me.

Jimmy C

2009-03-05, 01:28

there are only scenes that are apparently taken at the time of the BoD-incident and the time of the PT-incident.

Which are quite enough since the anime has the PT-incident and BoD-incident exists in anime only.

I can easily point out my method maintains the largest possible pool of information in a situation where it is already scarce.

Ah yes, your Maximum Retention Decree. That only applies to canon sources, I've already said I don't consider the novel canon, therefore inclusion of anything from it into what I consider canon is at my discretion alone. You can decide what you want to include into your idea of canon, but stop shoving it down my throat.
If you like, I can also say that rule doesn't fit the picture painted by the series, so it falls outside the bounds of Maximum Retention. At least my bounds, therefore, out it goes.

What a wonderfully arbitrary attitude.

I do prefer to be arbitary on non-canon material and save my critical judgement for evaluating full-canon material. Keeps a smile on my face. I consider that more important than making you happy.

One should hope that given time, the Bureau can band together more mages than one world is likely to be able to crunch out.

You know the saying, "Ask me for anything but time?" That may or may not always be possible. The thing is, if the Bureau is enforcing this rule, it will eventually encounter a situation where it has to either subjugate a world to bring its mages into the Bureau or leave them alone and acknowledge that the rule is a paper tiger. The Bureau doesn't seem like an organization set up for the former.
BTW, where's my examples of words not being followed up by events from the Nanoha anime? Can't find any?

I suspect that the pass rate for that is near 100%, and that the border cases are mostly going to represent people that want to do things with their power that the TSAB wouldn't approve of - i.e. would have to be stopped anyway.

This is like those Hegemony types of thinking. We're Good. If you're Good too, you'll join us for the Good of all. If you don't join us, then you're not Good and we'll have to Do Something about you.
Have you seen cases where two parties consider themselves to be good but have opposing views and can't work together? Happens all the time, especially in politics, it's human nature.
Try this situation, on an NAW, there's a organisation of mages dedicated to protecting their world. They have no interest in spreading their influence to other worlds or extending their protection to them, although they have the means to reach those worlds. Good people, don't you think?
Now, along comes the Bureau to tell these guys, you must join us. The Organization disagrees, they don't want the Bureau to put strings on them, be beholden to the Bureau or play by the Bureau's rules. They're staying on their own world and keeping it safe, why can't this Bureau leave them alone? And no, they don't want anyone in the Bureau giving them permission to stay on their world, that would be as if they were operating under the Bureau's sufferance, an unacceptable condition to them. Permissions can be revoked after all.
In this situation, the Bureau has to either treat this organisation as an independant equal or make that world an Administered one. But I would think any culture that could produce such a fiercely independant organization would... decline to be Administered by the Bureau.
So, would the Bureau be willing to conquer this world for the sake of enforcing this rule? Who would be "good" in this case? The Bureau that wants control of all magic users to prevent catastrophe? Or the Organization that's simply defending its homeworld?
Perhaps the Bureau might win if it came to a fight. But it might not recover from the blow to its credibility if it took this course of action.
Then, there's the other scenario I posited. A formerly decent but now upset mage who realizes the best course of action is go along with the Bureau. Fight for the Bureau while gaining influence and turning ever larger chunks of the Bureau into her personal empire until she gains it all, then declares herself Empress.

Keroko

2009-03-05, 02:42

The main issue here seems to be twofold. The first is which of the two sources is higher canon, the second whether or not the forced drafting is contradicting.

On the first, it should be clear that the anime is canon. StrikerS directly referenced screens of the battle above the ocean, which proceeded ended as in the anime, with Nanoha Starlight Breaking Fate after surviving her bombardement. There is no sign that StrikerS shifted to use the novel.

Second, and tying into the first, is whether or not it is contradicting. The answer to this is a simple yes. Nanoha was blatantly allowed to get back to her normal life without complications, a clear contradiction to this law. Even after the series had ended, she wasn't plucked off the world, but was allowed to live her life while training part-time. And not only was Nanoha exempt from the law, but after A's, so was Hayate, then Fate comes to live on earth as well, and even the Wolkenritter come and stay on a world this law says they shouldn't be on. And all of them are criminals too! If the Bureau allows criminals to break the law, just how credible is this law?

This ties into the first point, as it shows the TSAB having a nice face, rather then a shady one, further tying the anime as canon.

So let's do a headcount:

There is no sign that the novel is used as canon.
There are several clues that show the anime is still canon.
The law is being heavily contradicted by the fact that every character we see is allowed to live her own life.

I see zero reason why this law is to be viewed as canon. Not only has it absolutely no support in the series, but it is also heavily contradicted.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-05, 04:42

Which are quite enough since the anime has the PT-incident and BoD-incident exists in anime only.

Yes, so the novel flows into the anime continuity. Not a difficult thing at all.

As for the PT incident, they even included a report on it in the novel.

Ah yes, your Maximum Retention Decree. That only applies to canon sources, I've already said I don't consider the novel canon, therefore inclusion of anything from it into what I consider canon is at my discretion alone.

I suppose by that you mean that if someone challenged you on a point you drew from the novel, you will defend it by using the novel as source? Isn't that just a bit too "having the cake and eating it too?"

You can decide what you want to include into your idea of canon, but stop shoving it down my throat.

I wasn't even in contact with you until you decided to shove your views of the canonicity of the novel down MY throat.

If you like, I can also say that rule doesn't fit the picture painted by the series, so it falls outside the bounds of Maximum Retention. At least my bounds, therefore, out it goes.

Will you have been equally unenthusiastic in its retention if it had been in the anime? If yes, fine on this point. If not, then you can't really say you tried, can you?

You know the saying, "Ask me for anything but time?" That may or may not always be possible. The thing is, if the Bureau is enforcing this rule, it will eventually encounter a situation where it has to either subjugate a world to bring its mages into the Bureau or leave them alone and acknowledge that the rule is a paper tiger. The Bureau doesn't seem like an organization set up for the former.

OK, read down.

However, as an argument, it is kind of like the one where the TSABbies simply can't be as tactically incompetent as we see them because they must have some enemies somewhere that can really bloody their nose unless they are competent. At least one path out of this dilemma would be: As it turned out, there were no such enemies.

BTW, where's my examples of words not being followed up by events from the Nanoha anime? Can't find any?

Fine. Take that one.

Try this situation, on an NAW, there's a organisation of mages dedicated to protecting their world. They have no interest in spreading their influence to other worlds or extending their protection to them, although they have the means to reach those worlds.

Wait. This hypothetical organization obviously didn't sprout up all at once. So, for it to have happened would mean the TSAB didn't detect them as they started popping up individually. So, what event made the TSAB detect them at all?

Alternatively, if this magical organization was long standing, before the TSAB, how did it avoid the fracas that managed to get the various magical using worlds to join up as the TSAB, especially if they have transdimensional abilities (which would imply contact with other worlds).

Good people, don't you think? Now, along comes the Bureau to tell these guys, you must join us. The Organization disagrees, they don't want the Bureau to put strings on them, be beholden to the Bureau or play by the Bureau's rules. They're staying on their own world and keeping it safe, why can't this Bureau leave them alone? And no, they don't want anyone in the Bureau giving them permission to stay on their world, that would be as if they were operating under the Bureau's sufferance, an unacceptable condition to them. Permissions can be revoked after all.

You mean, nothing the Bureau had to offer would entice them?

In this situation, the Bureau has to either treat this organisation as an independant equal or make that world an Administered one. But I would think any culture that could produce such a fiercely independant organization would... decline to be Administered by the Bureau.

Wait, why would such an organization necessarily be "fiercely independent"? Could they want allies?

So, would the Bureau be willing to conquer this world for the sake of enforcing this rule? Who would be "good" in this case? The Bureau that wants control of all magic users to prevent catastrophe? Or the Organization that's simply defending its homeworld?

Considering the fact we were nearly nuked, and Graham willingness (it may be illegal, but he's a product of the TSAB system so his zeitgeists probably is only a little more extreme, plus the fact his punishment does not show any great disgust on the part of the others) to use us as an experimental pigsty, the zeitgeist of the average TSABie would probably sympathize with the TSAB - the defenders will be considered obstructionist and dangerous.

Perhaps the Bureau might win if it came to a fight. But it might not recover from the blow to its credibility if it took this course of action.

1) While your scenario is not impossible, it is at the end of a interlocking chain of probabilities, many of which are not high individually, and the number of TSAB worlds is not THAT large. Thus it is entirely possible the problem was avoided because the odds never caught up to them.
2) For there to be a "blow" to their credibility, the average TSABbie would have to feel this invasion was unjustified, in the face of all the propaganda the TSAB will put out and limited contradictory data available to them. Even massive casualties in the effort will only be a blow if the average TSABbie is convinced they are un-necessary - otherwise they might think they are doing the Great Patriotic War and TSABie morale might increase!
3) Even if there were cases where they were fail to successsfully enforce the law, it doesn't mean the law doesn't exist. We all know the TSAB tries to eradicate mass weapons. Even the fact they were nearly conquered by mass weapons and have a whole planet that seems to be in civil war using mass weapons, it doesn't mean they don't have such a law, or do not try to enforce it. And of course Earth itself has some pretty lawless places.

Then, there's the other scenario I posited. A formerly decent but now upset mage who realizes the best course of action is go along with the Bureau. Fight for the Bureau while gaining influence and turning ever larger chunks of the Bureau into her personal empire until she gains it all, then declares herself Empress.

Another end in a long chain of probabilities. It is much more likely he might start off thinking that way, but over the decades he'll need to come close to this kind of position, he gets so "dissolved" into the Bureau's thinking that he himself would start impressing people. It only took 40 or so years to get Graham to decide to use his homeworld as the site of a rather dangerous experiment. Add the probability he gets caught, or he just doesn't get to the top for many reasons ... etc, or even he dies serving the hated TSAB. It is quite likely no one with the right combination came along for your scenario to come to pass.

Keroko

2009-03-05, 05:39

arkhangelsk

2009-03-05, 05:51

The main issue here seems to be twofold. The first is which of the two sources is higher canon, the second whether or not the forced drafting is contradicting.

Actually, which of the two sources is higher canon is only of statistical interest for this particular case - if not for the fact that some are trying to push the novel out of continuity entirely, I won't even bother putting up the other side. The fact that you have chosen a contradiction-based tactic shows that you have implicitly accepted the canonicity of the novel, so that's all right.

The second is a main issue, yes.

On the first, it should be clear that the anime is canon. StrikerS directly referenced screens of the battle above the ocean, which proceeded ended as in the anime, with Nanoha Starlight Breaking Fate after surviving her bombardement. There is no sign that StrikerS shifted to use the novel.

See previous answer. For that matter, how would we even show that the novel is up in the SoD sense. Even retaking another series at expense will not convincingly show that if they are as disjointed and brief as the actual sequence.

You can argue for intent, and I'll agree. However, by intent, the author made her intent on the law clear - she made it herself. Whatever else happens with an intent-based viewpoint, the law activates. Shall we agree to stick with SoD?

Finally, canonicity problems really only get into computation AFTER you have determined that there is an irrevocable contradiction.

Second, and tying into the first, is whether or not it is contradicting. The answer to this is a simple yes.

Crummy procedure. Here's what you should be asking. Is there any evidence that seems to cause problems with this statement? OK, I think I can rationalize it but yes I'll grant there seems, superficially to be a problem.

Nanoha was blatantly allowed to get back to her normal life without complications, a clear contradiction to this law. Even after the series had ended, she wasn't plucked off the world, but was allowed to live her life while training part-time.

Actually, it is explained very clearly how this came to be in the novel, and it is easily inferrable how this method would extend to the others. See the similarities, not the differences. But I've said all this before, and today we are trying to show methodology, so let's skip to the bottom.

[LIST]
There is no sign that the novel is used as canon.
There are several clues that show the anime is still canon.

Only if you are going by intent ... and intent is instant death for you as far as this argument is concerned.

The law is being heavily contradicted by the fact that every character we see is allowed to live her own life.

Badly incomplete & biased analytical process leads to hasty and flawed conclusion. Here are some steps you missed:
2) Try and come up with some possible rationalizations (feel free to use mine as reference). Show how they don't work.
2a (amplification)) Note that non-workable does NOT mean the rationalization feels wierd to you, or forced you to change a few misconceptions (hint: it is probably your misconception about criminals that's the big hangup, the other being your presumption the TSAB is a nice, rather than pragmatic, organization). If it is physically possible and solves the problem, it is valid.

Wild Goose

2009-03-05, 06:07

ark: if your charecter is already flawed, and someone calls you out on it, and you perceive that to be an attack, that's not my problem. XD

In like manner, professor, as to how you persist to use the novel, I will persist to remind you that yes, thou art but mortal. The right to do so sarcastically and mockingly is reserved.

Mark Simmons & Yoshiyuki Tomino: the former is a big name fan and a driving force in the english-speaking Gundam fandom, translating tech specs, doing craploads of research, even making GIF artwork of various MS; Bandai was so impressed that they hired him. The latter is merely an old dude... who created Gundam, directed 0079, Zeta & CCA, and wrote the novelisations for all, and unsucessfully attempted to kill off Gundam during a period of depression. (V Gundam. Less said the better. They don't call him "Kill 'em All Tomino" for nothing.)

So, how does Nanoha control the bolts and bits? Same way Amuro, Char, Lalah and Haman did. With her mind. (and in her case, in built-in psychommu system.)

Keroko

2009-03-05, 07:42

I did say the main issue here seems to be twofold, didn't I?

You have explained why Nanoha is excused, but you have completely failed to address the fact that Fate and Hayate, two criminals, and the Wolkenritter, four criminals that have been plaguing the Bureau since it's founding, and the universe long before it's founding, are also allowed to live their lives happily on earth.

I ask this: Why should I believe in a law that so far every single character it should have been applied to has gotten to ignore?

I see no need to come up with theoretical rationalizations on why the law wouldn't work if canon already blatantly shows it's non-existence.

Jimmy C

2009-03-05, 07:58

As for the PT incident, they even included a report on it in the novel.

And it happened in the anime too. It is the anime after all. I'll take the anime over the novel.

I suppose by that you mean that if someone challenged you on a point you drew from the novel, you will defend it by using the novel as source?

I would never use the novel as a sole source. I've never read it, so I don't know it in that much detail. If the novel has an element that agrees with the anime, I'll probably use how that element was presented in the anime during discussions. If the novel element was non-contradictory but unsupported by the anime, I would say, "This is not supported by the anime, but I think it's a good/reasonable idea. If you don't wish to accept it, it's of no concern to me." So you see, I'll never need to use only the novel to defend anything.

I wasn't even in contact with you until you decided to shove your views of the canonicity of the novel down MY throat.

It would be more accurate to say I'm shoving my views of the non-canonicity of the novel down your throat. It's just my defense against you shoving its canonicity in my face first.
You're the one insisting I have to accept that that stupid rule exists. I'm just showing such acceptance is not mandatory.

Will you have been equally unenthusiastic in its retention if it had been in the anime?

If it was shown (you can be sure it wouldn't have been just stated) in the anime, I'll accept it, reluctantly, but I'll accept it. Just like I have to accept some of the less-than-satisfactory elements in some of my favourite manga. I tell people, "It's there, I don't like it anymore than you do, but we'll just have to live with the results."

If not, then you can't really say you tried, can you?

In this case, "try" requires only as much effort as thinking about whether I'll wear the yellow or blue shirt today. Less actually, since I don't need to repeat that everyday. Why should I put in more effort over such a trivial issue?

At least one path out of this dilemma would be: As it turned out, there were no such enemies.

Yet. As far as we know.

Fine. Take that one.

Then you'll admit the creators of the series are at least that competent. So rest assured, if the rule turned up in the anime, you can judge the characters' words by comparing them to events shown. Then we can really discuss this rule!

So, for it to have happened would mean the TSAB didn't detect them as they started popping up individually. So, what event made the TSAB detect them at all?

Let's say it's a distance away and the Bureau just found their world. I think this answers the next part as well.

You mean, nothing the Bureau had to offer would entice them?

Haven't you met people who value One Important Thing over all others before? Let's say for these people it's Freedom and Independence. Sounds like the American Way, doesn't it?

Wait, why would such an organization necessarily be "fiercely independent"?

Not just the organisation, but the culture that produced it. Before you say it, just because these people put up their own government, doesn't mean they'll accept another imposed on them by aliens.

Could they want allies?

Allies, maybe. Masters, no. The way they see it, the Bureau insists that you play by their rules (kinda like you) or you don't play at all. They're not interested in that.

Even if there were cases where they were fail to successsfully enforce the law, it doesn't mean the law doesn't exist.

But it would mean that the TSAB didn't learn from those failures as the Bureau's standard tactic appears to be "dogpile the opposition and hope it just goes down." Great if you can outgun your opponent by an order of magnitude, not so good if the numbers are nearly equal and your opponent manages to outsmart you.
See? This is the kind of thing we can talk about if the rule existed in the anime.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-05, 09:11

Point of note, the TSAB doesn't try to 'eradicate' mass-based weaponry. They banned their use and started to regulate them. They have their own people who can carry these kinds, or similar, weapons with special permits. This is more akin to a country with fierce gun ownership laws then a country trying to erase them from existence.

The average "fierce gun ownership laws" don't stop their police from owning them even in situations where they are clearly useful, the schoolmaster from saying they are banned in "principle", Fate from saying that they were 根絶...

As for the 'we were almost nuked' you keep using that as a sign that the TSAB is evil, but you completely ignore the fact that they did not consider it anything but a last resort, a method that would only be used to prevent further casualties from not only the entire world, but also potentially every surrounding world. The fact that despite this risk they chose not to fire speaks volumes of the TSAB's bright side, not their dark one.

Don't start sticking on abilities that hadn't even been claimed.

Anyway, I supposed we have previously discussed volumes about how if they had properly handled the situation, the whole thing won't degrade to the point of Arcie.

Finally, and most importantly, did I say they were "evil"? I said they were pragmatic - evil is your own red herring (perhaps it is a reflection of your inner consciousness that's also lamenting the near death of Japan?). Of the options those not awfully bright people could bring up, it is a pragmatic solution to the problem. It just isn't "warm-hearted" or any of the sort of thing you mentioned.

As for Graham, if his 'zeitgeist' was supported by the majority of the TSAB, as you claim it to be despite having no evidence to support the claim, then he wouldn't have been put in the coverup bin. The fact that they chose to keep most of Graham's involvement covered up shows that this is something that goes against the TSAB's policies.

First, Graham, with 40 years or thereabouts of in TSAB service, is steeped in your zeitgeist. His default state is that he is in approximate zeitgeist. It is your job to prove he is massively out of line.

If they had really disapproved, if they really wanted to cover it up, he should have had an early demise "due to ill health", not a slap-in-the-wrist. Besides, there is something to be said just for any effort to cover it up.

I see you don't even try to answer Ep9 of the OS, and really, Keroko, the cases are stacking up. Are you sure you aren't flailing just to avoid a conclusion you don't want to see?

I did say the main issue here seems to be twofold, didn't I?

You have explained why Nanoha is excused, but you have completely failed to address the fact that Fate and Hayate, two criminals, and the Wolkenritter, four criminals that have been plaguing the Bureau since it's founding, and the universe long before it's founding, are also allowed to live their lives happily on earth.

Why is the fact they are criminals so important to you? Obviously it isn't that important to the mage-hungry TSAB, that's all.

I ask this: Why should I believe in a law that so far every single character it should have been applied to has gotten to ignore?

I see no need to come up with theoretical rationalizations on why the law wouldn't work if canon already blatantly shows it's non-existence

The requirement of canonicity. By necessity of the scarcity of information, we typically assume that what we see is more or less representative of the whole. However, it is just that, an assumption. In the face of a statement unambigiously saying otherwise, we are obliged to take it.Permit me, by analogy, to introduce you to one of the most powerful single quotations in all of the vast Star Wars canon:
The Empire has not completely altered the governments of hundreds of thousands of worlds. Such a task would be impractical. The Emperor has left it to his advisors to modify the portions of a planetary government, be it government procedure or members of the ruling body, to conform to the will of the Empire. Less than one planet in 80 has been so modified.

The preferred option is to let a planet run itself much as it has for years, but maintaining a visible Imperial presence so that the rulers know who their ultimate master is. The Empire also encourages the constituent planets to reform their own governments to conform to the Imperial method. In this way, individual worlds eliminate laws and freedoms, replacing them with doctrines and statutes more in line with Imperial edicts.

The Imperial Sourcebook is not particularly high-ranked. It is C-canon, pretty old C-canon. As if it isn't bad enough, by choice it is not "omniniscent", but the collected works of an in-universe "Arhul Hextrophon". And of course, being a WEG book and all, it has the old 8000m "SSD", which means that it crashes into canon, and new sources, hard on at least one point. But it is canon.

Just one little quote, and all of a sudden, countless planets in all the Galactic Empire suddenly turned from their common image of being utterly oppressed to being relatively free. Of course, most of the other books are "Empire meets planet, Empire crushes planet" (a long tradition starting with Alderaan :)), so it is definitely against the "feel". But there you go. One quote, not very high ranked. Effectively more powerful than dozens of others. Every anecdote of occupation, atrocitiy, even destruction in G-canon winds up being inside the 1 in 80. Technically, they can overturn it, but with over a million planets in the Empire, total, they'll have to come up with over 10,000 planet names for the Empire to oppress, first. The fact it sounds so reasonable and pragmatic doesn't help matters any.

This is the power of a general exposition over anecdotes. Even a low-ranked anecdote, if at all canon, can punch a hole through a high-ranked general exposition, but only for their specific case. And even with the greatest canon anecdote finds it almost impossible to destroy the assertion of the general exposition, because it is almost always possible, canonically speaking, to say the anecdote is an exception of one sort or another. The extrapolation of the anecdote is an assumption, which has to be given up in the face of a contradictory general exposition.

The most common time when a general exposition is destroyed by an anecdote is if 1) the anecdote is of higher canon-rank, and 2) the general exposition explicitly INSISTS on including the anecdote. For example, the "Super-class" SSD might have lasted longer had they not been so insistent in including Vader's G-canon Executor into their ranks. But they do, forcing a contradiction and self-shattering. But as long as you are careful not to make that mistake, your general exposition is pretty terra firma - like our current example; it allows room for exception.

Keroko

2009-03-05, 09:57

Neither does the TSAB completely ban them, as shown by the TSAB fielding Belkan mages, whom use magic-powered mass-based weaponry, and even the very thing itself to its operatives, with a special permit.

As for the Yami no Sho... if a bunch of Jewel Seeds already have the power to cause damage reaching as far as Mid, it's easy to theorize that the Yami no Sho -a far superior Lost Logia- can cause similar, if not surpassing damage. Nevertheless, I said 'potentially.'

And yes, we did talk about how the situation could have been resolved differently, but we also concluded that a different approach would not necessarily lead to a better conclusion. If anything changed at all. Well, that, and we concluded it would make for a lame story if they solved everything in an episode or two without fighting, but you never see that as a proper reasoning.

As for evil, I call any organization that drafts people of worlds they have no control over, against their will when push comes to shove, evil. Hell, doing this counts as kidnapping, which is a recognized form of evil. You suggest the TSAB does this. Ergo, you suggest the TSAB is evil.

Now on to Graham, you completely ignore that nobody expected Graham to do this in the first place, which means that this 'zeitgeist' was not the mainstream zeitgeist he usually uses. Hell, the entire Graham plot was him changing the way he hunted the Book because of his failure to save Chrono's father. The very plot of the series is saying he was out of line. What more proof do you need?

As for not killing him, I'm not exactly sure where you live, but not every country uses the death sentence. Graham was removed from office for his crimes and the situation was covered up as a retirement.

And ignoring for a moment that you yourself have yet to answer my question on explaining why all the characters we've seen, even the criminals, dodge this law you claim to exist and you really have no right to call me upon not answering something, what exactly am I supposed to answer from episode 9 anyway?

Wild Goose

2009-03-05, 10:43

Bah, ark is just here for trolling. Highly disguised intellectually flavored trolling, with a "My way or the highway" approach, but trolling nontheless.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-05, 10:52

Neither does the TSAB completely ban them, as shown by the TSAB fielding Belkan mages, whom use magic-powered mass-based weaponry,

Yes, magic-assembled pseudomatter weaponry. Next.

and even the very thing itself to its operatives, with a special permit.

We see one operative. Wow, that really overturns the rest of the evidence, does it?

As for the Yami no Sho... if a bunch of Jewel Seeds already have the power to cause damage reaching as far as Mid, it's easy to theorize that the Yami no Sho -a far superior Lost Logia- can cause similar, if not surpassing damage. Nevertheless, I said 'potentially.'

What "damage reaching as far as Mid", all that happened was that they can't get back to Mid for a bit. Besides, since Mid is much farther away than the HQ, if it actually affected Mid, the much closer HQ would be in deep, deep trouble, and we see no sign of this.

And yes, we did talk about how the situation could have been resolved differently, but we also concluded that a different approach would not necessarily lead to a better conclusion. If anything changed at all. Well, that, and we concluded it would make for a lame story if they solved everything in an episode or two without fighting, but you never see that as a proper reasoning.

The correct solution is to increase the difficulty of the fight so you can have a proper fight and STILL have it tough.

As for evil, I call any organization that drafts people of worlds they have no control over, against their will when push comes to shove, evil. Hell, doing this counts as kidnapping, which is a recognized form of evil. You suggest the TSAB does this. Ergo, you suggest the TSAB is evil.

No. That's not what you said in that paragraph. You said I'm using it to show that it is evil, when I specifically said it is to show the pragmatic nature of the TSAB. But let's release you and head to the point.

I am FORCED to accept the TSAB does this. SoDwise under Canon Analysis I'm forced to accept it. Intentwise I'm forced to accept it so that's no help even if I'm willing to give up SoD (and no I'm not willing). OK, I wasn't traumatized like I was when I saw Ep17, but my feelings on this is irrevelant. I could be barfing in the toilet over this and I'll still have to accept it.

It is your interpretation and your morals that suggest it is, when the gains and losses are balanced, evil. Thus, you suggest the TSAB is evil.

Finally, don't blame the messenger.

Now on to Graham, you completely ignore that nobody expected Graham to do this in the first place, which means that this 'zeitgeist' was not the mainstream zeitgeist he usually uses.

Nobody quite expected him to break the law. But nobody was censuring him very hard either. Which shows that they were only mildly behind him.

Hell, the entire Graham plot was him changing the way he hunted the Book because of his failure to save Chrono's father. The very plot of the series is saying he was out of line. What more proof do you need?

As for not killing him, I'm not exactly sure where you live, but not every country uses the death sentence. Graham was removed from office for his crimes and the situation was covered up as a retirement.

In short, the near death of our planet was worth "removal from office" as a "retirement"? The values of the Middies run deep!

And ignoring for a moment that you yourself have yet to answer my question on explaining why all the characters we've seen, even the criminals,

I answer you every time. You just can't accept that the TSAB simply doesn't place as big a premium on criminality as you do (not a shock when you see Graham's wrist-slap).

dodge this law you claim to exist and you really have no right to call me upon not answering something, what exactly am I supposed to answer from episode 9 anyway?

You know, that part where Lindy decided to leave Fate until she dies and then like a scavenger, go down and pick up the Jewel Seeds. I'll call it pragmatic (though the correctness of the judgment is questionable), but why don't you call it Evil, based on your classification system? I mean, they are leaving a 9-year old girl to die when they clearly have the power to save her.

Note that not a SINGLE person (except for Nanoha and maybe Yunno) was horrified.

Keroko

2009-03-05, 11:45

Jimmy C

2009-03-05, 13:16

You know, that part where Lindy decided to leave Fate until she dies and then like a scavenger, go down and pick up the Jewel Seeds.
I mean, they are leaving a 9-year old girl to die when they clearly have the power to save her.

Correction on this part. They were monitoring the situation and preparing to capture her after she had exhausted herself. Therefore they weren't going to just let her die. Whether they might have succeeded or not is a different question.

krisslanza

2009-03-05, 13:20

Actually speaking of that situation... At the end of MSLN Chrono did say something along the lines of "The Bureau isn't some heartless organization that would condemn a girl who was just trying to fulfill her mother's wishes." or something didn't he?

Just throwing that out there.

Xellos-_^

2009-03-05, 14:11

Back to Graham, it shows their values alright. It shows that they are unwilling to execute even their criminals. That's a rather high moral compass.

Another way of looking at it is that he TSAB did a plea bargain with Graham to spare itself of media circus if it had to bring charges against a well respected Admiral. Graham gets to retire with his pension and the TSAB didn't have to deal with the fallout of court trial against a well respected and influential admiral. It would be the trial of the century on Middy and a media circus that would bring unwanted media attenation on the TSAB.

Actually speaking of that situation... At the end of MSLN Chrono did say something along the lines of "The Bureau isn't some heartless organization that would condemn a girl who was just trying to fulfill her mother's wishes." or something didn't he?

Just throwing that out there.

Well Chrono was what 12 or 13 yrs old at the time. I doubt he knows just how much dirt the TSAB has hidden underneath the carpert.

Jimmy C

2009-03-05, 14:34

15, I believe.

Keroko

2009-03-05, 14:36

Probably, but jail didn't exactly get the death penalty either, despite having committed a considerable number of atrocities.

As for Chrono... well, nobody really knew what kind of dirt the TSAB was hiding. That didn't come out until after StrikerS.

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-03-05, 14:51

Jail never killed anyone. His minions did that job. If anything, the most he can be convicted with is conspiracy to commit murder, and accessory to murder. (Maybe a few others more obscure, but those are the big ones.)

But the fact remains that without evidence or proof that he did the dirty deed himself, you cannot level Murder 1 or Manslaughter charges against him and expect them to stick in a court of law.

And Jail, being an 'enlightened' scientist of sorts, may consider himself above getting his hands dirty with such tasks as killing people. That's what brainwashed minions are for. The guy IS a raving lunatic after all.

Fishfood1

2009-03-05, 15:05

think jail isn't getting the death sentence is because that ground force general and those 3 brains let jail does what he want. So it's not entirely jail who caused the trouble.

it's partially those 3 brain and that ground force general's fault(sry i forgot their name(s)), because they let a criminal go that far.

Keroko

2009-03-05, 15:05

That, and creating the technology to genetically alter humans to turn them into weapons, the creation of said Cyborg weapons, the capture and holding of TSAB personnel, the kidnapping and brainwashing of a 9 year old child, the usage of mass-based weaponry.... do people being killed by Gadget Drones count? If so he's guilty for attempted murder at least.

Still, ordering someone to murder another person makes one an accomplice in the murder. You don't just get away with that because you're not the one who pulled the trigger, court doesn't work that way.

As for being allowed to do things by the high council... well, many of the things Jail did were outside the scope of even their plans, so it really can all still be pinned on him. Regius is pretty much in the same boat as Jail. He chose to participate, but after that he was bound to the High Councils orders.

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-03-05, 15:40

Still, ordering someone to murder another person makes one an accomplice in the murder. You don't just get away with that because you're not the one who pulled the trigger, court doesn't work that way.

I didn't say he got away with it.

I said you can't pin Murder 1 on him. The best you can pin is Accessory to Murder and Conspiracy to Commit murder. And generally, a court of Law doesn't execute people for that. (Unless it's the Imperium, and the judge is a Commissar...)

Jail is spending Life in Prison for his crimes.

Uno, Tre, and Quattro, who did some serious shit and won't cooperate, are also spending Life sentences. Due, who did the most killing directly, was treated to poetic justice and was KIA.

Keroko

2009-03-05, 15:57

Ah, but here's the big catch: I just remembered that Jail, Tre and Quattro did kill people. While we are unsure of just how big the bodycount was, Zest's entire team was wiped out to virtually the last man, with the only survivor being Alpino, who then became a blueprint and blackmail bargaining chip. Jail ordering Gadgets to kill someone is more like locking a missile and firing rather then sending a person to do his work, there's really no way out of that one. Tre and Quattro had a nice bodycount ranking as well, with corpses spread all around them.

Of course, most ironic is that Cinque too, was involved in that fight, and had even taken down Zest herself. And Cinque isn't even in prison, much less executed. Though she has the War-Child excuse going for her.

Really, from what we've seen on-screen, Due actually had the lowest body-count among the group, unless she did some things behind screen we don't fully know about. And yet she's the only one who got killed.

I'm tempted to call that unfair, really.

krisslanza

2009-03-05, 16:04

Xellos-_^

2009-03-05, 16:09

Keroko

2009-03-05, 16:14

A slight correction, Jail never worked under the orders of the brains, he merely cooperated with them so he could continue with his experiments. After killing the High Council, all the blame from the incident would shift from them, to him. Humans always want to punish something visible.

'sides, as ATC said, the brains may have allowed it, but Jail is still the one who 'pulled the trigger' as it were.

Too bad he's not moe. That might've saved him. :p

Xellos-_^

2009-03-05, 16:19

Keroko

2009-03-05, 16:26

'He told me to' is generally not really an accepted excuse though.

Xellos-_^

2009-03-05, 17:00

'He told me to' is generally not really an accepted excuse though.

in this case, he was under orders form the brains that was running the TSA. So it was all government sanction.

al103

2009-03-05, 17:07

Of course, most ironic is that Cinque too, was involved in that fight, and had even taken down Zest herself. And Cinque isn't even in prison, much less executed. Though she has the War-Child excuse going for her.

On other side she is only one of "good" number without definite probation period IIRC (or with much longer one - don't remember) - so her case is "either you cooperate for lifetime or go to prison".

Arkeus

2009-03-05, 17:14

On other side she is only one of "good" number without definite probation period IIRC (or with much longer one - don't remember) - so her case is "either you cooperate for lifetime or go to prison".

Well, giving someone "Bureau penance" is canon as of A's (The wolrenkitter).

Anyway, i thought the Brain's weren't the TSAB absolute rulers by that time, just that they had retained a good deal of influence?

Keroko

2009-03-05, 17:20

in this case, he was under orders form the brains that was running the TSA. So it was all government sanction.

I really don't think government sanction counts when you're killing your own men, especially when said men are only doing their job. The High Council was already going against the TSAB's own laws, basically making them criminals. Following orders from a criminal doesn't make you any less a criminal yourself.

On other side she is only one of "good" number without definite probation period IIRC (or with much longer one - don't remember) - so her case is "either you cooperate for lifetime or go to prison".

Well, that too, but she also has the War-Child excuse. She was created and raised as a weapon, and knew nothing more then to do what was told. People like that exist in the real world as well, and rather then being send to prison for living a life they didn't choose, they are being helped to gain a normal life.

Same thing here. Which is also while the other four are still locked away, they chose to walk the path of crime, even after the choice to gain a normal life was presented to them.

Same thing, basically, but it sounds a bit more gentle. :heh:

Anyway, i thought the Brain's weren't the TSAB absolute rulers by that time, just that they had retained a good deal of influence?

They weren't. They were shadow-rulers, as it were. Officially speaking they were merely watching over the Bureau, but they had no political power on the surface. That crown had long since been passed on.

Xellos-_^

2009-03-05, 17:25

I really don't think government sanction counts when you're killing your own men, especially when said men are only doing their job. The High Council was already going against the TSAB's own laws, basically making them criminals. Following orders from a criminal doesn't make you any less a criminal yourself.

They weren't. They were shadow-rulers, as it were. Officially speaking they were merely watching over the Bureau, but they had no political power on the surface.

but it is still one hell of a legal cover that any lawyer will exploit to its fullest advantage :D

Well, giving someone "Bureau penance" is canon as of A's (The wolrenkitter).

Anyway, i thought the Brain's weren't the TSAB absolute rulers by that time, just that they had retained a good deal of influence?

reminds of the Stainless Steel Rat series, Catch them and Draft them.

Keroko

2009-03-05, 17:33

but it is still one hell of a legal cover that any lawyer will exploit to its fullest advantage :D

And one that a prosecutor will just as easily tear to shreds.

The basics of the basics are the laws. If it breaks the law, then even if someone tells you you can do it, you are still breaking the law.

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-05, 20:15

Interesting that you'd want to charge Jail with civil crimes. It's pretty obvious that he's primarily guilty of treason or insurrection, since his stated goal was essentially overthrowing the Bureau in favor of his rule. (What he intended to do with that rule is up for debate... but when you launch an army of drones and a nigh-invincible ancient battleship, you're not just a criminal anymore.)

The TSAB is clearly comfortable recruiting wherever it finds people (not that there's no stigma attached to the manner of their recruitment - Fate gets a little of that and Hayate gets a lot.) Recruiting out of the ranks of the defeated is a time-honored strategy, and if you do it right, you get fiercely loyal troops who are grateful both for having been spared the ignominy of defeat, and for being allowed to retain their honor/status as warriors. Fate or Hayate would go through fire to help the Bureau out; in fact they HAVE gone through fire in that service. Nanoha too, but she's got different motivations.

One can certainly argue that there's plenty of rot in the bureau and that Lindy represents the best of them, morally speaking, in her kind treatment of those who she is tasked to deal with. One can ask about their motivations in leaving Fate to her, uh, fate (not necessarily death, but at least significant injury and/or burnout; if they recovered her alive, she wouldn't be the Fate that ends up in A's and Strikers, to be sure.) Clearly it wasn't something that they were happy to be doing, and Lindy wasn't really upset that Nanoha stepped in and interceded (actually quite the opposite for a captain who just had her authority snubbed, but Lindy's a little odd too.)

Lindy and Chrono learned a lesson from that, though - they were very happy to go with Nanoha/Fate/Hayate's plan at the end of A's, rather than take a big bite out of Kanto.

So is the TSAB a terrible organization full of evil people, and Lindy is an exception? Or is Regius an exception and generally speaking, the TSAB are nice on average? Signs point to the latter. The only other admirals we know about are Chrono (nice if gruff), Letti (nice), the three admirals of yore (unknown, but Vita likes 'em, so probably nice), and Graham (nice, though driven to terrible things). Chrono's rapid advancement to flag rank at least implies that someone approves of him, or at the very least that Lindy's got a lot of influence and so people approve of her; that speaks well for the TSAB's taste in admirals. ;p

al103

2009-03-05, 20:35

You forgot Carim who is admiral equivalent (and wear admiral uniform from time to time) and Yuuno who is civilian but head of TSAB branch. Both go to the "nice" category.

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-05, 21:47

I don't count either, actually. The Church is an affiliated organization with its own power structure, so Carim being able to advance to the head of it doesn't say anything about the Bureau as a whole. (Regius doesn't think very kindly of them, but they're more or less opposed to him, right?)

Yuuno's the head of the Infinite Library, more or less by virtue of being the guy who walked in there ten years ago and was good at it; the implication in A's was that nobody had been minding the stacks lately, so he more or less got the job by filling a vacuum with competence.

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-03-06, 00:22

Correction to Keroko's comment.

Jail didn't kill through his drones. He relegated drone control duty to Uno.

The way the responsibilities were distributed across the group. There is no one person you can really rack up enough charges, especially Capital Murder, to adequately succede in going for the death Penalty.

As for Due not being killed as punishment. Maybe the line slipped past this person's head. It was 'Poetic Justice'. The STORY punished Due, the cold blooded homocidal maniac she was, just after she racked up quite a kill count right there on screen. (Three Brains, one General. And we know that Priest bought it in the early flashbacks.) And she enjoyed every minute of it until she underestimated Zest.

Continuing onward to hit a few other random points from the last dozen or so posts...

According to the UCMJ, it is explicitly stated that violation of things such as Geneva Conventions, and or knowingly violating a law in service is still a crime. Under the UCMJ, a soldier is not obligated to fullfill 'illegal orders'. So even if a superior officer orders you to do something, if that should be illegal, you are obligated by the UCMJ NOT to follow that order, but in fact are obligated to reject the order, and if it still gets pushed, (ultimately, upon someone else.), report it to other troops outside your unit.

In the case of Jail following Regius' orders coming down from the 'Brains'. Regius was not obligated to follow the instructions of the brains, and by his position, should have held them accountable the moment he found out about them.
Going on down, Jail trying to fall under the 'well he TOLD me to' doctrine won't work (and he probably knew it, so never tried to use it.) because of the very same code.
And on and on down the chain of command.

In a military system, under the chain of command. You are not exempt for 'following' orders if those orders are not legal. If you follow through with the orders knowing full well they are illegal, you are just as guilty as the person who issued them.

It should be also noted, that rejecting illegal orders is not insubordination, and you cannot be punished for it.

Laws are twistedly complex. Jail can't be accused of outright murder, but he can't hide behind excuses, and Regius can't be charged with murder, but he also can't hide behind following instructions from the brains. (Of course, Regius is dead, so whatever.
I think a lot of people aknowledge that Regius got caught up in a situation that pretty much screwed him over. He honestly wanted to help bring safety and security to the people, improve the quality of the forces on Mid... unfortunately, he got sucked into a conspiracy and turned into little more than a pawn useful as misdirection. With the authority he had available, he could have shut jail down hardcore years before the situation came to a head AND blew the cover on the 'Brains.' Blowing open a major scheme of this magnitude would have gotten him more popularity points and probably more focus to help the Ground Forces than anything the brains Ideally wanted to get from Jail.

But *shrug.* Things happen, and people in these situations honestly think the ruse will yield better results in the end.

arkhangelsk

2009-03-06, 00:56

... I think I'm beginning to see ADV's complaint. It's hard to reply to fragmented posts in one go. :eyespin:

Anyway, this has always been somewhat of an unofficial decision, so I'd like to know where it is stated that magic weaponry is made out of pseudomatter?

Considering the alternatives, the pseudomatter theory has the least problems. Plus, the BJ is magically composed, and that's another factor in the final choice IIRC. And of course there's the factor of the mass weapons stuff.

and even if it is pseudomatter weaponry, it's pseudomatter weaponry that causes physical damage.

You can cause physical damage with magic. No big problem here.

And yes, we did see one operative being exempted, but why does that mean she is the only one? The existence of a special permit means that she is not the only one around, otherwise no such permit would need to be made, nor would there even be a reason for her to be allowed to equip that weapon in the first place.

Fine, there were TWO, the other is somewhere. Happy? :)

The point is again the anecdotal versus the general. The general already established the banning of mass weapons. But now we have this anecdote. The only solution to rationalize the two is that these permits are 1) a very recent invention that postdates all the canon statements (but that depends on exactly how the SS went) and/or 2) very, very rare, either because they are very new permits or because they were always there as an extremely rare exception - the fact they won't release them even for capitol defense shows how utterly rare it'll have to be. It won't be shocking if there were as little as 1-2 permits ever issued.

Now the difficulty of the fight, you forget that the very base of the alternate route was to avoid fights by locating and approaching Hayate directly. Regardless, this is derailing the point I was making, which is that the TSAB doesn't just flare out and punch the fire button on the Ark on impulse, and actually rather doesn't wish to do so.

I should hope they don't wish to do so! The alternate routes also involved bringing in the correct amount of force (or at least numbers) to handle the problem.

Episode 9... yes, you do have a point, that was rather cruel. However I feel the need to note that the crew was on constant stand-by while watching the fight, and they had to have been, as they would have needed to jump in the moment Fate falls down exhausted if they wanted to see the Seeds sealed, as Fate could not do so alone.

Ah, I see. So, the important thing is the Jewel Seed, not Fate's butt. OK, she's a criminal, but that doesn't seem to mean nearly as much to the TSAB zeitgeist as our own, she's 9-years old, and it is not like she killed someone yet.

Odds are they would have jumped in then and there, but only after Fate was incapable of escape.

Recheck the episode. he said something like 仮に自滅しないとしても... which means even if she doesn't self-immolate (and in using kari, Chrono says he believes this is a low probability) and then muttered lines about attacking when they've used up their energy. The translation didn't get that wrong either.

Further, before that they had already used the word jimetsu twice - well, maybe she won't jimetsu if you got your butts moving, you #$!%.

As for the incapable of escape bit, well, if they really said that (and I'm sure they didn't), well look at the screen, darn it. Does it look like Fate and Arf were capable of escaping Nanoha, Chrono, Yunno and maybe Lindy herself in that state? If "incapable of escape" is the standard, they look very much like they are at that point already. So what were they waiting for?

I'll also note that nobody even so much as moves as Nanoha jumps in. It should have been easy for Chrono to bypass Yuuno and grab Nanoha, much less S-rank Lindy who could just smack Yuuno out of the way, yet neither do this, and instead let Nanoha save Fate. Very dark indeed.

I see you are not even trying to justify their action, just trying to minimize it.

Considering that Yunno was able to hold his own against Vita defensively, and Chrono isn't exactly a barrier breaker (his fully prepared SB-ES barely penetrated Zafira's very hasty shield and didn't even break skin), I'm not so sure whether Chrono could just blast Yunno out of the way in the few seconds before Nanoha teleported. There's also the part about not having a fight on your bridge.

Further, they were bleating rather loudly about it after Nanoha got out, so it isn't a case of shut-eye. It seems apparent that the reason no one interfered is well ... we all know that magical users sometimes have SLOW reactions to shock.

Back to Graham, it shows their values alright. It shows that they are unwilling to execute even their criminals. That's a rather high moral compass.

I'm not so sure whether unwillingness to execute criminals is necessarily a high moral compass. If Adolf Hitler was put on trial and they didn't execute him, would we consider that a high moral compass? And Graham nearly killed far more people than Hitler ever did.

Why they are criminals is important because you, who wants to use the novel explanation for this, claimed that it took Lindy considerable effort to let Nanoha -a loyal mage- stay on earth. Hayate, on the other hand, is still facing the stigma of her being the mistress of the Yami no Sho all the way in StrikerS. With such a law in place, and with Lindy already having trouble allowing loyal Nanoha to stay, how did the stigma-bearing Hayate get such permission?

Oh, remember how they were just rolling into the TSAB door at the time? Might that not be the advantage that counteracts criminality, which clearly is not worth as many points to the TSAB as it does on Earth.

And even if we discard they are criminals, that still leaves us with the fact that in every single person to which this law would apply has been exempt from it. You have given us Nanoha's explanation. Now where is Fate's? Or Hayate's?

Extrapolate from the anecdote we have. There is nothing preventing it.

And comparing Star Wars canon to Nanoha canon is laughable. Everyone with an inkling of knowledge in the EU knows the absolute mess that is Star Wars lore. Hell! More then half of it's 'canon' is made up out of fan-made material! Often written by fans-turned-authors!

I am demonstrating a principle. Further, once something is canon, its origin is not really important.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with letting fans write some of canon. As we can clearly see here too, motivated fans can easily see deeper into a show than its creator or hired authors, and they respect canon more. It was a fan-turned-author who finally corrected Executor's length, you know.

Correction on this part. They were monitoring the situation and preparing to capture her after she had exhausted herself. Therefore they weren't going to just let her die. Whether they might have succeeded or not is a different question.

They were monitoring the situation, but they were saying they would get them after they used up their energy, if they didn't jimetsu (a possibility they consider relatively unlikely) first. Not exactly what one would say when they don't want her to die.

So is the TSAB a terrible organization full of evil people, and Lindy is an exception? Or is Regius an exception and generally speaking, the TSAB are nice on average? Signs point to the latter. The only other admirals we know about are Chrono (nice if gruff), Letti (nice), the three admirals of yore (unknown, but Vita likes 'em, so probably nice), and Graham (nice, though driven to terrible things). Chrono's rapid advancement to flag rank at least implies that someone approves of him, or at the very least that Lindy's got a lot of influence and so people approve of her; that speaks well for the TSAB's taste in admirals. ;p

Actually, I won't be putting things to a vs between "Good" and "Evil", or worse "Nice" (Hitler was nice to babies and dogs). Rather, I'll say a more consistent theme to the known decisions (regardless of legality) by TSAB senior officers is pragmatism. Whether their decision is "good" or "evil" depends on your worldview. Chrono and Lindy were pragmatic in Ep9. Graham was pragmatic in A's.

I won't call the final decision in A "Nice" (in the sense it was placed above pragmatism). There were just two workable paths, and one preserved more. Further, there seems little reason to believe that if Plan A didn't work they can't fall back onto the Arc plan at that point, so...

Even letting Graham off easy, if it was to cover things up, is a pragmatic decision. Then we have the whole recruitment policy (run by Letti it seems), which is a product of pragmatism. We have the HC, and Regius. We may argue how well all these decisions went, but with the exception of Lindy letting Nanoha go in Ep8 (and we can still argue maybe she knew Nanoha would come back tomorrow, or maybe she didn't know how good Nanoha is yet, so she didn't want an amateur interfering with the work of "pros"), they were decisions that are quite clearly pragmatic.

And this is no bad thing for the senior leadership of an interdimensional organization. If anything, what you really don't need up top is a bunch of "nice" people who dash off like Caro in Ep21 SS.

al103

2009-03-06, 06:01

I don't count either, actually. The Church is an affiliated organization with its own power structure, so Carim being able to advance to the head of it doesn't say anything about the Bureau as a whole. (Regius doesn't think very kindly of them, but they're more or less opposed to him, right?)

Church is NOT affiliated organization, but part of TSAB. Carim is PART of TSAB command structure and direct superior of Hayate.

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-06, 13:54

I'm not sure I agree with that. We know they've got a separate and parallel rank structure ("Knight" Schach, not Lt. Schach, right?) We're not given any traditional military rank for anyone in the Church either. Finally, RF6 is absolutely, without a doubt part of the ground forces; Regius wouldn't be able to send inspectors if it wasn't theoretically in his chain of command, or at least his own service, but I never got the impression that Carim reported to Regius (or, frankly, anyone.)

It's clear that Carim is Hayate's superior in the Church, sure. Not sure how that works exactly. She might have gotten a big pass simply because she's the greatest extant Belkan mage - and two through five report to her. In an environment where most Belkan practicioners are "Neo" practitioners who mix a lot of Mid in, like Subaru, there's probably not a whole lot of competition for the best Ancient Belkan style, much less SS-rank competition. By the same logic, we'd expect Vivio to become an enormously important figure in the Church once she gets old enough... not as much power (?) but a very direct and clear link to the Church's venerated hero-deity.

Jimmy C

2009-03-06, 14:13

One could say the Church is allied or affiliated with the Bureau and Carim is a Director in the Bureau as a representative of the Church's interests.
I suspect the Church had a lot to do with bringing the Belka lands under Mid rule, unifying the planet and ending the age of war. The Director position is probably in recognition of the efforts of the Church on their behalf. Or it was the price of gaining the support of the Church.

al103

2009-03-06, 15:02

I'm not sure I agree with that. We know they've got a separate and parallel rank structure ("Knight" Schach, not Lt. Schach, right?) We're not given any traditional military rank for anyone in the Church either.
It would be point if not the fact that Nanoha and Fate are not captains. They have service-specific ranks which are equivalent of captain rank. And Army/Navy have comparable but different rank structure in RL also.

It's clear that Carim is Hayate's superior in the Church, sure. Not sure how that works exactly.
Problem - Hayate is not part of the Church structure.

Keroko

2009-03-06, 15:19

Hayate is part of the Church. That's how she got to know Carim and Accous in the first place, in being a Belkan user and becoming a Knight of the Church.

Also, the Church is a religion, not a military. It doesn't work like the military and is not a part of the military. Belkan users sometimes end up as Knights, such as Erio, though we don't exactly have any idea how many do so. Despite this, they can still advance in the military as usual. The Church also has political influence, as there are 'Saint Church governed regions' on Mid.

aldw

2009-03-06, 15:50

The Church may be a religious organization, but it would make sense to consider their combat arms like a military order of the Church, much like how RL religious groups have them.

al103

2009-03-07, 00:30

Also, the Church is a religion, not a military. It doesn't work like the military and is not a part of the military.

Ghe! And that uniformed BSC Knights (whos commander Carim is) in assault of Jail base are illusion? They have weapons, uniform, act like military... and not military? Uhuh...

FRS

2009-03-07, 00:56

Ghe! And that uniformed BSC Knights (whos commander Carim is) in assault of Jail base are illusion? They have weapons, uniform, act like military... and not military? Uhuh...

I dont think we have enough information to say if the Church has just a few trained individual able to fight or whole order of templar to field, on the other hand we know that the Church is independant of the TSAB and so certainly not under its standard chain of command.

MeisterBabylon

2009-03-07, 01:53

Its probably both, that the Church has its own standing forces with its own hierarchy like the Vatican, but the entire "Order of the Hammer" is small compared to TSAB troops, and that the Church answers to the same administration as the TSAB's combat wings.

How did this come about? Look what happened when Bush went and fired all of Iraq's troopers. :D So we know the TSAB is stable. We also know that the Church has earned that trust early in TSAB's formation. Very likely then, to minimize trouble during the transition to power 75 years ago, the Belka inked the treaty that net them the northern hemisphere of Midchilda and the right to maintain a portion of its armed forces that fought alongside the Mid's boys.

Keroko

2009-03-07, 05:07

Ghe! And that uniformed BSC Knights (whos commander Carim is) in assault of Jail base are illusion? They have weapons, uniform, act like military... and not military? Uhuh...

It's more like taking a step back in the past and looking at the religions of old, they had knights under their command, and could even go to war if they wanted to, but in they end they were still a religion, not a military.

al103

2009-03-07, 05:19

Uhm... Lets say that Saint Church by itself is not part of TSAB but Church Knights are. On they own structure but still.

Keroko

2009-03-07, 05:27

Actually, it's rather the reverse. A Bureau mage can be part of the Church. All Knights are part of the Church, but not all Knights are part of the Bureau, such as Schach, who is a Knight but holds no rank nor authority in the Bureau.

It's like how you can be in the military, but be Christian, or Jewish, or Islamic, or even have no religion. Similarly, one can be a follower of the Saint Church Religion, and still be a member of the TSAB's military.

al103

2009-03-07, 05:46

All Knights are part of the Church, but not all Knights are part of the Bureau, such as Schach, who is a Knight but holds no rank nor authority in the Bureau.

I actually doubt that thing... It was never shown that knights are not part of Bureau, but reverse was shown.

PS. And for what started this discussion... Carim is TSAB admiral anyway - do Knights are part of TSAB or do not.

Keroko

2009-03-07, 06:14

Schach certainly isn't. When she went to help Signum train the Forwards, she introduced herself as 'sister Schach of the Saint Church' rather then 'Lieutenant Schach of the 204th Ground Force Battalion' or something like that.

Also, the fact that the Schach and the Knights that help her wear their own unique robes and armor, rather then the ones the rest of the Bureau does shows they are not part of the Bureau. Even Knights such as Erio, Signum or even Hayate wear the standard TSAB uniforms when on Bureau duty.

And just because Carim holds a high rank in the Bureau doesn't mean the entire Church does. There are a lot of civilians who are members of the Church.

al103

2009-03-07, 06:39

1. Only there are Enforcer Fate T. Harlown, don't remember but certainly not captain Takamachi Nanoha and there are named places of service like Infinity library.
2. There are at least 7 different uniforms for different tsab branches + commonly used blue one + blue admiral uniform. "Different uniform" is not proof.
3. There are civilians in TSAB - Yuuno is best example, because he is branch head. Uniform of maids in RF6 (actually 8th one to count) doesn't look like military at all - also civilian personnel?

Keroko

2009-03-07, 06:46

Schach's rank was only a simple example I thought of at the top of my head, so don't take it to seriously. The point is that she didn't introduce herself as a member of the Bureau, despite the fact that training the forwards is official TSAB business, and instead introduced herself as a Sister of the Church. If she really was a member of the Bureau, she would have introduced herself as such. And Yuuno is specifically noted to be a Civilian Collaborator, and his case has been treated as a special one.

As for different uniforms, why not? All Knights we know to be in Bureau service that we have seen wear regular TSAB uniforms, yet these Knights don't.

al103

2009-03-07, 07:24

As for different uniforms, why not? All Knights we know to be in Bureau service that we have seen wear regular TSAB uniforms, yet these Knights don't.
Because they are not church knights? Belkan knight =/= Saint Church Knight.

Keroko

2009-03-07, 07:29

al103

2009-03-07, 07:32

Erm... yes it does? Now Belkan users don't necessarily have to be Knights (point in case, Subaru and Ginga, both of whom are Belkan users but neither are Knights) but Knights are a part of the Belkan Saint Church.

Volkenritter NEVER were part of Belkan Saint Church. Knight is belkan (not new belkan) oriented mage. That's all.

Keroko

2009-03-07, 07:36

They weren't part of the Saint Church because they weren't even human to begin with prior to the events in A's. The Church was founded long after their creation. As it stands now, they are members. After all, if Hayate is part of the Church, do you really think the Wolkenritter would stay behind and watch?

And a Knight isn't simply a Belkan oriented mage. I point again to Ginga and Subaru. Both use Belkan, yet neither are Knights.

al103

2009-03-07, 07:46

And a Knight isn't simply a Belkan oriented mage. I point again to Ginga and Subaru. Both use Belkan, yet neither are Knights.
Both use modern belkan, not (ancient/true) belkan. And Elio is knight - when did he became part of Church?

Keroko

2009-03-07, 07:57

That's what I said. 'The Church was founded long after their (the Wolkenritter's) creation.'

And despite it having nothing to do with the Church during it's founding, it sure has something to do with it now. Ginga and Subaru aren't Knights because they use Modern Belkan? So does Erio, and yet he is a Knight, where those other two are not.

Clearly there is a requirement other then simply 'using Belkan magic' to becoming a Knight.

al103

2009-03-07, 08:03

And despite it having nothing to do with the Church during it's founding, it sure has something to do with it now. Ginga and Subaru aren't Knights because they use Modern Belkan? So does Erio, and yet he is a Knight, where those other two are not.

Clearly there is a requirement other then simply 'using Belkan magic' to becoming a Knight.

It have more to do that Elio is pure melee fighter and Subaru despite her close-range is not. Anyway it have nothing to do with Saint Church. Most of Belkan magic users were knights and if old belka user would appear nobody can say he is not knight because he isn't part of Saint Church. Belka Knight =/= Saint Church Knight. Another example is Zest who IIRC also knight not mage - and he isn't part of Church.

Keroko

2009-03-07, 08:39

Wh- Okay, role back a moment, how is Subaru not a melee fighter? Even her Divine Buster has to be fired at nearly point-blank range. The only thing she has going for her are her shooting arts, which Erio just as easily matching with his ranged spear-slashes. For that matter, what difference does that make? Nearly every Knight we've seen has access to ranged attacks.

There is a clear and distinct difference between being a Belkan user and being a Belkan Knight. Neo Belkan or Old Belkan makes no difference. A Knight is not a rank in the Bureau, and not all Belkan users in their service are Knights, so we know it's not them who give out the titles.

Then we have the Saint Church. The primary source of all things Belkan in the Nanohaverse. If it's not them who grant the title of Knight to a Belkan user, who else can it be?

As for Zest, he has a thorough understanding of the Old Belkan system, to the point where he can even identify Signum being an Old Belkan Knight simply by her stance. I'd say he was a Church Knight allright.

MeisterBabylon

2009-03-07, 08:42

I see al103 you have misconceptions a plenty. All good so we can clear the air. :D The Volkenritter are part of the Church Knights Circle now, hence part of the Church.

We can speculate why there's a difference in listing, but when you analyze their combat data, all Belka practicioners are very much melee, with the more advanced ones having some midrange capacity and rarely, like Hayate, a long-range shot. There is an element that makes the distinction b/w what appears on their ID cards, but to clearly define that is just fan speculation until the DVD booklets reveal more.

In the mean time, there is enough evidence to show that it's because of the Church. Certain trials needed to pass? Certain standards to fulfil? Maybe all you need is to take a vow. But all that is fan-speculation, because other than what's listed in their IDs, there is no difference between any kind of Belka user.

al103

2009-03-07, 09:11

The Volkenritter are part of the Church Knights Circle now, hence part of the Church.

In which audiodrama it was? Because it wasn't in anime or manga.

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-07, 15:05

Well, Hayate's way outside the Belkan norm. Reinforce (Ein)'s legacy means she's got ridonkulous amounts of spell knowledge.

Given that the Church is, to the extent that it's a religion and not a social network for people of Belkan descent, based on the worship of a hero-king, having Hayate show up is a little problematic. If you're talking "powerful Belkan ruler infused with the power of Lost Logia", well, she's a powerful Belkan user infused with the power of Lost Logia. If she wanted to press for a strong leadership role in the Church, it would be very difficult to refuse her. (Not necessary, as it's played out; Hayate's ambitions have been channeled to the TSAB side, and to personal improvement, and she's really good friends with Carim as it is.)

The existence of Vivio is a great deal more problematic, though, roughly equivalent to what would happen if you could prove that someone had given birth to an exact clone of Jesus through immaculate conception. What were the extraordinary powers of the Saint King? Well, he could run the Cradle and he had the Saint's Armor. Vivio's 2 for 2 so far. (Did she need a technical assist? Sure, but for all we know, so did the original. The Relics are that old or older, right?)

Even if the official Church policy is "Vivio is super cute and we love her to death, but she's not actually the Saint King," eventually some ambitious lower-ranked member of the Church is going to figure out that a sure-fire way to shake up the Church hierarchy would be to proclaim her the New Saint King and go from there.

How would you prevent that from happening? Well, first, Auntie Carim needs to be dropping in on Vivio all the time. (Easy enough to justify, because Auntie Hayate will be there a lot too.) The more Vivio identifies the current Church leadership with "the nice people who I grew up with", the less likely she is to lead a bloody internal revolution.

Still, she's going to be a teenager sometime...

Frisko

2009-03-08, 19:52

Even if the official Church policy is "Vivio is super cute and we love her to death, but she's not actually the Saint King," eventually some ambitious lower-ranked member of the Church is going to figure out that a sure-fire way to shake up the Church hierarchy would be to proclaim her the New Saint King and go from there.

The official church policy is probably something like "Vivio is the New Saint King, but has not yet chosen to grace us with additional teachings." Which is completely true.

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-08, 23:31

Except that would be really asking for trouble. You don't want an angry Vivio to storm out and declare that she's your religious leader and that her first statement is that Nanoha-mama is a big fat poopy-head...

Ryand-Smith

2009-03-09, 00:38

On the Knight Issue, it seems Knights are a sort of order (speculation alert) that one joins, you need to use Belkan and possibly agree to follow a code of honor (like real Knights), which explains why it isn't a big deal, some people are part of the Knights of Columbus in reality

Key Board

2009-03-14, 22:50

Knighthood is title bestowed by the church. Erio was a squire during StrikerS

I assume you have to complete a certain test or training to be granted the title. It's probably not that different from a TSAB license test

And it seems they bestow several titles

Carim, Hayate, the Wolkenritter, Erio and Zest are Knights
Schach and Sein are Nuns / Sister

al103

2009-03-15, 08:48

Knighthood is title bestowed by the church. Erio was a squire during StrikerS

Is there any proof in translated sound stages? If yes - link please. If no - i still don't get where that "Knight is always member of Saint Church" came from.

Keroko

2009-03-15, 08:53

To me, quite simply because while we have seen Belka users who weren't Knights, we haven't seen a Knight who wasn't related to the Saint Church.

A Knight is a title. You can't claim a title, it is awarded. Someone must be awarding people with the title of 'knight.' The TSAB really has little to do with Belka, while the Saint Church practically has a monopoly of everything Belka. Who other then them would bestow the title of Knight upon Belkan mages?

al103

2009-03-15, 11:16

1. Only we had "Belkan mages were called knights" line in A's.
2. I would more likely think that title of knight awarded by any other knight than that - hey, and it actually works perfectly.
3. And we DID see - Zest is nowhere affiliated, i don't remember anything like that for Elio and 'ritters connection is in doubt at best (and nonexistent at worst).

Keroko

2009-03-15, 11:34

That script was made before the creation of the Saint Church, it's not unlikely that Chrono was referring to Ancient Belkan knights either. Regardless "Belka = Knights" was proven false by the existence of multiple Belkan users without the Knight title.

Your idea does have credit, I'll admit, but another knight simply saying 'you're a knight now' doesn't make it official, there has to be some organization behind the cataloging of it for it to be an actual title rather then a mere word.

As for connections... the Wolkies connection was confirmed in the recently translated Sound Stage. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2269392&postcount=1774) Zest knew enough about Ancient Belka to identify Signum being one by her stance, I say he was. Erio... actually Erio is supporting your second claim, as he was taught directly by Signum.

al103

2009-03-15, 12:31

Your idea does have credit, I'll admit, but another knight simply saying 'you're a knight now' doesn't make it official, there has to be some organization behind the cataloging of it for it to be an actual title rather then a mere word.

Only in RL it was so for a looooong time.

PS. Also I don't like idea "all knights are part of saint church" because of complications like with 'ritters - could church revoke/contest they knight status because they are not part of it? No. Could church revoke/contest knighthood from members of another belkan enclave? Answer is also no. I don't even see how they could contest knight title from ANY belkan user who calls himself so.

Keroko

2009-03-15, 13:05

Only in RL it was so for a looooong time.

That depends on both the period and the culture we're looking at. However, for 'a loooooong time' the title of knight was one of high social standing, one often reserved for those of high birth. Still, whenever a knight was granted his title, this was not something casually done, and actually caused a great number of people to come and see.

It's obvious that social standing has little to do with becoming a knight in Nanoha. The title of a knight is more like what we have today, an honorary title. And those titles are both granted by someone of proper authority, and cataloged.

As for your second bit... No, I don't think the church would be able -nor willing- to strip the rank of a knight of one whom they did not award it to. But then, the Saint Church is all that remains of Belka (well, as far as you can call the biggest religion in the universe 'all that remains'), so contest of other Belkan enclaves is non-existent anyway. The Wolkenritter might actually be the only exception. I say might, because we still don't know whether or not the Knights were actually human once. If they were, then they were granted the title by Belkan authority, so the church really wouldn't have anything to complain.

Could they contest the title of a knight from any random Belkan mage who calls himself so? Yes. For the same reason that I'd be tapped on my shoulder if I would claim to be a knight. It's an official title, you don't just don yourself with such a title without having earned it.

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-15, 14:38

I gather that being a Knight of Belka isn't exactly a super-difficult bar to clear. Elio's one, right? Okay, but he's not that special - just a kid with some good training and some talent.

Maybe it's like being a mage. You're not necessarily entitled to it on your first day of training (even if that training DOES consist of "grab a device and get casting"). By a technical definition you are, but people aren't going to go around calling you a "mage" until you've at least got a basic handle on what you're doing.

So think of a Knight the same way. If you're using Belkan style, and you've mastered it to the satisfaction of another Belkan practitioner, congrats, you're in the club. (There might be an element of "oh, we approve of you" involved; then again, maybe not. It didn't occur to anyone in A's to look up whether Vita, Signum, and the others were "Church-approved" knights...)

Could the Saint Church take away the title from Vita or Signum? I doubt it. Theoretically they could try, maybe, but again they run into the Hayate problem. Hayate, plus her knights, have the "Lost Logia mojo" going on; they're at least a little immortal and Hayate could rumble anyone in the church, possibly all of them put together, and while I'm not going to say she could have taken the Saint King, I'd pay a hell of a lot to watch that fight. (On PPV. From a different dimension...)

What I'm getting at is that Hayate has an independent claim -on the Church's religion-; if they decide to kick her out, she might manage to take the Church with her. (Double this problem with Vivio around, of course.)

It's moot, because Carim and Hayate get along like peas in a pod, and I think Signum does really well with having other people to train. (Vita, sure, but I don't see her as being satisfied at training other Belkans so much as she just enjoys being a drill instructor...) But having someone like Hayate (and Vivio!) around definitely limits what the Church might decide to do; they literally cannot afford to alienate her. So don't expect Carim to get up and give a sermon on the evils of groping other women anytime soon...

Anh_Minh

2009-03-15, 14:54

Maybe knighthood is like statehood. Maybe the Church could officially refuse to acknowledge the Wolkenritters' knighthood the way some countries refuse to acknowledge Israel. The Wolkenritters could decide not to care.

Keroko

2009-03-15, 15:00

Erio's nothing special? He's a nine-year-old AA-rank mage! :eyespin: The main cast may create the illusion that AA is nothing special, but for the majority of the mages, B-rank is the limit.

Anyway, that aside, I don't think it merely depends on your mastery of Belka. Ginga is Erio's senior by several years, practices Belka rigorously, and she's not a knight. There's obviously more at hand then simply practicing the Belkan style. Perhaps it is a matter of choice, to be granted the title of knight, but if it is, who is the one awarding those titles? What are the base criteria? And once we've established that, who is issuing those base criteria?

That last bit is especially important. You can't just have every single knight go around and decide who can be a knight on their own whims. That would destroy the value of the title, as it would all depend on the knight who says you're ready.

Anh_Minh

2009-03-15, 15:09

Wasn't it done that way in the middle ages? Just some lord dubbing you because he thought you were ready? Sure, he was guided by tradition. But there was no central authority.

Xellos-_^

2009-03-15, 15:57

Wasn't it done that way in the middle ages? Just some lord dubbing you because he thought you were ready? Sure, he was guided by tradition. But there was no central authority.

basically in the middle ages anyone hwo is a knight can knight anyone. And basically anyone who can afford a horse and armor and a distant claim to nobility can get himself to be call Sir.

Keroko

2009-03-15, 16:10

Nya~n

2009-03-15, 16:54

Because they're more of mages than knights. Sure, they use Modern Belkan, but their style of magic isn't close enough to traditional Belkan. Subaru and Ginga use Shooting Arts, which appears to be more of Mid-like spells in a Belkan setting, while Erio leans towards the traditional "This-is-me-spear-I-am-going-to-smash-it-into-your-face-and-that's-it" style. Maybe it(Belkan Knighthood)'s more of how close your magic style is to Belkan values towards its magic?

Keroko

2009-03-15, 17:20

As I said before, Erio uses Modern Belkan as well, and yet he's a knight. Shooting arts are nothing more then giving Belkan mages a bit of range, which Erio has as well with his I-slash-the-air-and-send-an-arc-of-energy-towards-you attack.

Though the more I think about it, the more logical 'having been taught by a knight' begins to sound. It's the main thing that sets Erio -who was personally trained by Signum- apart from Ginga and Subaru.

Perhaps he was using Modern Belka in the beginning, then switched to Ancient Belkan as he learned it from Signum?

Anh_Minh

2009-03-15, 17:26

Yes, but it was also because anyone who was able to become a knight was rich enough to do so (being a knight was a very expensive job). While throughly trained and capable fighters, Knights were still very much a symbol of how much money or influence you had.

Obviously, Nanoha knights don't work that way. If it really were that easy, why isn't Subaru, or heck, her elder sister Ginga a knight?

It wasn't that easy. You still had to find someone to knight you (obviously, it wasn't in the interest of the knights themselves to just give it to anyone), and you had to be gentry.

Maybe that's it. Maybe Subaru and Ginga are from peasant stock, while Erio's the descendant of Belkan nobles.

Keroko

2009-03-15, 17:30

Maybe that's it. Maybe Subaru and Ginga are from peasant stock, while Erio's the descendant of Belkan nobles.

Erio is the result of an experiment... his social status is VERY low.

Edit: I just remembered something. From what I remember of translated booklets, the main thing that differed Ancient Belka from Modern Belka is that Ancient Belka was only learned from another knight. If the idea that the title of knight is bestowed by another knight is true, then it makes sense that those who have been knighted have studied under a knight familiar with Ancient Belkan. This makes sense in several ways:

1. It explains why Erio is a knight, and yet his teammate Subaru isn't. Erio was personally taught by Signum.
2. It explains why Zest could recognize Signum as an Ancient Belkan knight from just her stance. He had been taught the Ancient Belkan style himself.
3. It gives the title a significance. Being granted the title of knight means that you have a certain degree of mastery in the Ancient Belkan style, which is declining due to being taught one-on-one rather then Modern Belka, which is taught en-masse.

Kyral

2009-03-15, 17:53

Though the more I think about it, the more logical 'having been taught by a knight' begins to sound. It's the main thing that sets Erio -who was personally trained by Signum- apart from Ginga and Subaru.

That would be my guess as well.
He can actually proove that he was trained by a real knight.

I personally think that knights are normaly trained by Saint Church nowadays.
Zest could have been trained by a Saint Church knight or he was once a member of the Saint Church but left for reasons unknown and started working for the TSAB.

EDIT:
Ah... somewhat ninja'd by the edit xD

Keroko

2009-03-15, 17:55

You're right, this still doesn't change that the Church has a heavy influence on who becomes a knight or not. :eyespin:

Kyral

2009-03-15, 17:58

Well it is Saint Church with the most active knights in todays Mid, so it is not surprising actually.

Anh_Minh

2009-03-15, 17:59

Erio is the result of an experiment... his social status is VERY low.
Depends how you count his filiation. He's the clone of the dead son of very rich parents. He still bears their name (or does "Mondial" comes from something else?), just as Fate still considers Precia her mother. One of them, anyway. May point is, he didn't appear ex nihilo. He has as much right to his family's status as Vivio to the title of Saint King.

Edit: I just remembered something. From what I remember of translated booklets, the main thing that differed Ancient Belka from Modern Belka is that Ancient Belka was only learned from another knight. If the idea that the title of knight is bestowed by another knight is true, then it makes sense that those who have been knighted have studied under a knight familiar with Ancient Belkan. This makes sense in several ways:

1. It explains why Erio is a knight, and yet his teammate Subaru isn't. Erio was personally taught by Signum.
2. It explains why Zest could recognize Signum as an Ancient Belkan knight from just her stance. He had been taught the Ancient Belkan style himself.
3. It gives the title a significance. Being granted the title of knight means that you have a certain degree of mastery in the Ancient Belkan style, which is declining due to being taught one-on-one rather then Modern Belka, which is taught en-masse.

But he only met Signum in Strikers. By then, he already had Strada and some abilities, including Sonic Move. And he was a squire then?

Also, can he really be said to have been "trained personally by Signum" more than Subaru has been "trained personally by Vita"?

Nya~n

2009-03-15, 18:06

Subaru was not trained in Vita the way Keroko described the Signum-Erio apprenticeship. With Subaru, what Vita was really doing was "When someone does this, the TSAB teaches you to do this. But since you're a punching person, I'm tweaking the textbook for you." It's more or less a personalised version of what she teaches any other TSAB mage meant for Subaru. It's just a customised TSAB training regime.

With Signum and Erio, she's teaching the tricks of the old book(or at least, that's what I believe we're speculating). It's different from Vita's custom TSAB training.

Keroko

2009-03-15, 18:23

There's a league of difference between a clone of some noble family, and the clone of an object of an entire religions worship.

Also, nobility was not required to become a knight. Money and connections were. Being a knight was very expensive, and if you couldn't find a knight who would want to teach you, you were pretty much screwed. If you could gather enough money and find a knight willing to train you, you could become a knight even if you were a peasant.

As for the master/student relation between Signum and Erio, it runs much deeper then Vita and Subaru's. For one, Signum isn't an instructor. She says as much when Vice presses her whether she should not be present training the forwards. Vita taught Subaru because it was her job, Signum taught Erio because she chose to, even going as far as teaching him her own moves. something Vita never did.

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-15, 22:56

We're off into speculation land now. We don't actually see any knights getting trained but Elio, who can claim direct instruction from Signum, who's in an unusual position vis-a-vis Church approval. It's all tied up with the whole "let's-make-good-friends-with-Hayate" issue. If Signum trained up a knight and the Church refused to recognize him as such, what's going to be Hayate's reaction? She trusts Signum implicitly; "it was a bad idea to train that person" simply is not an idea she'd be prepared to entertain. So, she would ask herself, why would the Church want to deny that Signum was a knight? Because, by extension, that would deny Hayate's role too. Why would the Church want to do that, given that Hayate is without bad intentions (aside from a little freelance sexual harrassment)? Because someone in the Church had bad intentions and wants to do something Hayate wouldn't stand for. So Hayate would more or less have to act, because the only alternative (aside from bloody civil war) would be Hayate taking control of the Church to keep it from doing whatever it had in mind.

Like I said, Hayate doesn't have to think this way, and neither does Carim, because they march in lockstep. But part of the reason they do is because they need to - either one doing something without consulting the other could be taken as the first step towards pushing the other out of the picture entirely.

Vivio's more of a wildcard. Ideally she grows up good friends with everybody, never has to bother with the Saint King business again, and all that jazz. But even if that's true, Hayate and Carim can't take the Church in a direction that Vivio would oppose, because then Vivio could decide to assert herself as a response (well, for Carim; I don't think Vivio would win out over Hayate, not for a long time yet.)

And, of course, because Nanoha is Vivio's mom now, by extension Nanoha's got a little say in how the Church is being run too; fortunately Nanoha is thick as thieves with Hayate already. (Neatly disposing of the issue of Vivio's caretaker as a separate problem - there aren't a whole lot of things on which Nanoha and Hayate would take different sides anyway, given their long friendship and identical cultural background.)

MeisterBabylon

2009-03-15, 23:33

My personal theorum possibly takes some liberties with canon, but I'm not sure, so I'll air it up for a bit:

As long as you complete the Church's training program, you can qualify to be a Knight (doesn't mean you are a good Knight, as there are tons of grunt Knights). The program is very modular, and it is possible do it as a "subject major" while attending Bureau Academy. The main concern is having gone through the system, whose specifics we can mull over in our fandom, thus giving you a foundation to enter the ranks of the Knights, and be all you can be, even progress to a Belka Meister if you are good enough.

At the same time, there is honorary Knighthood which probably engenres Hayate and the Wolkies (not sure if they were considered knights). These work like the "Knight of the British Empire", awarded to individuals with exceptional mastery of the Belka Way (it's not just combat; it's a way of life) who made significant contributions to society.

There is no such distinction between honorary and trained Knights on the ID cards as the honoring itself is a process to recognize knights of Belka trained outside the Church system, in effect making it a second but more ardious route to the same knighthood.

Xellos-_^

2009-03-16, 00:49

At the same time, there is honorary Knighthood which probably engenres Hayate and the Wolkies (not sure if they were considered knights). These work like the "Knight of the British Empire", awarded to individuals with exceptional mastery of the Belka Way (it's not just combat; it's a way of life) who made significant contributions to society.

we don't know how old the wolkies are but i am pretty sure they predated the Saint Church. In this instance the Saint Church really doesn't have much say in whether the wolkies qualify as Knight since they were knights before the great grandpa of the Saint Church founder was even born. They can easliy pull the seniorty card on the Saint Church.

Anh_Minh

2009-03-16, 01:20

There's a league of difference between a clone of some noble family, and the clone of an object of an entire religions worship.
I don't see why. I mean, obviously, Erio can't demand to be worshiped, but he can claim to be his parents' son and, by extension, his ancestor's descendant.
Also, nobility was not required to become a knight. Money and connections were. Being a knight was very expensive, and if you couldn't find a knight who would want to teach you, you were pretty much screwed. If you could gather enough money and find a knight willing to train you, you could become a knight even if you were a peasant.

Not what I read, which would suggest the tradition changed according to time and place. (Actually, what I read was that you had to be the son of a knight.)

MeisterBabylon

2009-03-16, 01:26

This is a flaw in the system only because they are dealing with ex-immortals. No one alive predates the Saint Church and its proto-organization during the transition period!

Though if you looks really closely, the Wolkies are very fluent with the way of the warrior, they are the servants to a Belka Knight, and they may have contributed to society, so the Church could have accredited them on faith. It would've been so before a legal process was implemented, most likely during the transition period.

Keroko

2009-03-16, 04:03

Of course, this all depends on whether or not the Church has any say in whether or not mages become knights, which is the very base of this discussion.

So far the only visible difference between Erio and Subaru is that Erio was trained one-on-one by Signum, with her going as far as to train him in her own techniques. If mastery of the Ancient Belkan style is the defining point in what makes you a knight or not, then that would explain a multitude of things. Adding to the points I mentioned above, it also explains why the Wolkenritter are recognized knights, they know nothing but the Ancient Belkan style. In terms of mastery, you will be hard pressed to find anyone with a similar degree of mastery, much less a higher degree, then them. To deny them the title of knight would be ridiculous, hence it isn't even tried.

I don't see why. I mean, obviously, Erio can't demand to be worshiped, but he can claim to be his parents' son and, by extension, his ancestor's descendant.

The difference lies in support. Erio can make a claim, but it can be stomped down on the base of him not being the 'real' Erio, just as Fate is not the 'real' Alicia. It would be a complicated procedure, but it all depends on how much support her can gather on his side. Do note, however, that we never hear from his family after he was taken by the evil scientists.

Vivio, on the other hand, has the biggest religion of the universe watching her back. Very few idiots would even try to oppose such a case.

Not what I read, which would suggest the tradition changed according to time and place. (Actually, what I read was that you had to be the son of a knight.)

Being the son of a knight was a sure-fire way to become a knight, as a father would rarely refuse to train his son, but it wasn't the only way. After all, if you had to be the son of a knight, then the knights would die out pretty quickly, don't you think? Half of the knights don't get children, next generation will only have half the knights. Half of the knights die in war, now only a fourth of the knights still exist.

Anyway, your birth was not of vital importance. Your money and influence was. It just so happens that the ones with proper connections to a knight, and the money to become one, were also often those of considerable standings.

MeisterBabylon

2009-03-16, 04:30

You mean Erio was train 1-on-1 by Signum rather than Subaru...?

Though one thing we seem to be forgetting about clone heritage is that Belka traditionally had cloning, DNA modding and other now-illegal methods of reproduction, unlike our world. The Kaiser herself can be interpreted to have been a strain of super-clones from an Iron Womb to ensure genetic purity and maximum Rare Skill inheritance (I know this sounds like the Clans). Since that is recognized as the "Royal Line", Erio could well be a Knight because of being a clone of a boy of blue blood.

That said, I haven't exactly seen any flashbacks of his original family in any sort of regality to even hint they were oldtype knights. :p

Keroko

2009-03-16, 04:40

You mean Erio was train 1-on-1 by Signum rather than Subaru...?

Ah, thanks for catching that.

And yes, I did forget that for a moment. Of course, that doesn't change much, considering noble lineage is not required for knighthood. Common, yes. Required, no.

Xellos-_^

2009-03-16, 14:11

Kyral

2009-03-16, 14:17

Vivio really is a potiential headache for Carim. Currently as a little girl under Nanoha's care she is no problem but when she becomes a teenager with all the usual teenager problems.....:twitch::uhoh::eyespin:

And people call her "Her majesty the Sankt Kaiser" already... :eyespin:

Keroko

2009-03-16, 14:22

It certainly isn't being kept a secret, that's for sure.

MeisterBabylon

2009-03-16, 14:25

Chances are Vivio'd grow up to have totally prim-and-Suey teenage years that would be so boring that it would be skipped over just like Nanoha's. So Carym won't be worried about that for a while. :p

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-17, 03:09

One points out that they wouldn't be making a manga series based off of it if Vivio wasn't going to have some exciting times. (Well, assuming it's not a gag manga...)

Should be a lot less of a problem than you'd think, though. Even going all out, Vivio ain't a match for her mom, and both of them know it; they'll go on knowing that for a while, even if Vivio becomes even stronger than Nanoha (and ain't that a scary thought). If anything, it's more likely that Vivio will want to follow in Nanoha-mama's footsteps, which is sure to provoke a mixed reaction in Nanoha.

Keroko

2009-03-17, 06:40

It should be noted that if Vivio becomes as strong as Nanoha was during StrikerS, then she already has become stronger then Nanoha, due to Nanoha's damage after the Cradle incident.

Anyhoo, I wonder how much of a plot Vivio's heritage will become? I don't really see Nanoha as the franchise that throws in BetrayerS level plot...

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-17, 13:31

I get this image of Nanoha yelling at Vivio for trying to go out and fight the bad guys... "You know that saving the world is a family activity!" Squabbling ensues over who gets stuck on minion duty.

My earlier point was that, even if Vivio becomes technically stronger, it's going to be some time before she internalizes that. How many people here could kick their dad's butt? Most boys reach that point in their teenage years, but the vast majority (thankfully) don't ever internalize that. Kick Dad's butt? Are you kidding? Dad is the -man-, he'd just refuse to get kicked.

Nanoha is the same way, with extra reinforcement, because it's not just Vivio who thinks that Nanoha is tough. Heck, Vivio's already won the "my dad can beat up your dad" fights at school, with her mom; even in rebellious teenage mode, even if she's fully realized her power, she's not going to want to confront Nanoha head-on for a long, long time.

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-03-17, 14:06

Nanoha'd probably still win even with Vivio being stronger out of the fact that she has more experience. The Cradle showed us that Nanoha's combat thinking was ahead of the actual fight by about an hour. She was hunting for quattro before she ever made contact with enemies inside the cradle.

Experience is a real killer in these kind of battles.

Nanoha may feign weakness for half the fight just to draw Vivio in and waste her power, then trump her after Vivio's worn herself down. She doesn't have an 'invicible' power supply backing her this time. Or she could fake wearing down, pretend to have a second wind, wind down again, and then toss in a false third wind to pretend it's the end of her bluff. THEN throw it into fourth gear and pull a win.

Nanoha's taken powerhouses down before.

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-17, 15:40

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-03-17, 16:01

That's part of the psychological factor of facing down Nanoha, but not the point I was making. Even if Vivio was out to trounce Nanoha as a personal goal of challenge, she'd probably still lose by operating on a power only basis because of Nanoha's combat proficiency.

One of the biggest elements that has always driven me nuts in fiction is the almost tunnel like focus on "POWER!" AKA STRENGTH when in a fight between highly skilled individuals, strength is merely a component of a more complete battle doctrine. One of the reasons special forces are so awesome is the fact that they don't have nearly the POWER they seem to have, yet project it because of their skill and method of fighting. These guys aren't carrying thousands of pounds of high explosive, but they take out stuff that an entire nation's air force couldn't get close to.

If Vivio climbs into the double S power range, she may actually handicap her combat developement by relying on brute power even more than Nanoha does in a pinch. It's not until you face a superior opponent that you learn how to play the game to your full potential.

Keroko

2009-03-17, 16:18

It's not until you face a superior opponent that you learn how to play the game to your full potential.

Nanoha herself is actually a prime example of this. She was always rushing into battle going 'zenryouku zenkai' on her enemies. It wasn't until doing so nearly got her killed that she sat down and thought "hmm, maybe I shouldn't push my body past its limits unless really really necessary."

DezoPenguin

2009-03-17, 21:12

Right, but it goes beyond that. Even if Vivio got really mad at Nanoha, is she going to sit down and think "well, these days I clock in at a low SS and Nanoha has to push to get to S+, I can probably take her?" Or is she going to remember being on the receiving end of an all-range attack? It will take a lot of actual combat experience before Vivio comes to a point where she can judge Nanoha outside the old paradigm, where Nanoha essentially curb-stomped Vivio in a caring fashion.

Though the significant point here is that Vivio actually asked Nanoha to...ahem..."curb-stomp" her. Until Vivio's brain was kicked loose from the ol' Total Mind Control when Quattro was zapped she was basically redecorating the walls with her mom (though how much of that was due to Nanoha not wanting to open up fully on her daughter is open to all kinds of debate). I'd vote that if for whatever reason they threw down with each other again the mother-daughter psychological dynamic would be much more significant than any memories of past fights.

One of the biggest elements that has always driven me nuts in fiction is the almost tunnel like focus on "POWER!" AKA STRENGTH when in a fight between highly skilled individuals, strength is merely a component of a more complete battle doctrine. One of the reasons special forces are so awesome is the fact that they don't have nearly the POWER they seem to have, yet project it because of their skill and method of fighting. These guys aren't carrying thousands of pounds of high explosive, but they take out stuff that an entire nation's air force couldn't get close to.

That's one reason why one of my favorite moments in the StrikerS manga is when Hayate, who's basically a fragging strategic nuke with pretty black wings, up and confesses that any of the forwards could take her in a one-on-one fight because of their superior practical combat training. Raw power means nothing if you can't direct it against your target.

If Vivio climbs into the double S power range, she may actually handicap her combat developement by relying on brute power even more than Nanoha does in a pinch. It's not until you face a superior opponent that you learn how to play the game to your full potential.

But if Vivio's going to be an air combat mage, then she's basically going to have been living and breathing combat training since the age of five, under a regimen where "just hit it harder" isn't an acceptable answer to any training scenario. Tia: My head still hurts... So I don't see that as being a particular risk. True, training does not equal practical combat experience, but unless her actual applications of her power are very limited in scope she's not likely to fall into that particular trap.

Xellos-_^

2009-03-18, 13:25

One points out that they wouldn't be making a manga series based off of it if Vivio wasn't going to have some exciting times. (Well, assuming it's not a gag manga...)

it depends on when the manga is happening. if the teenage years the yes it will be exciting and action pack. but as she is now around 8 to 10 i think it will be more along a slice of life type.

Keroko

2009-03-18, 13:41

Slice of life? In Nanoha? Surely you jest!

Sarcasm aside, Vivid takes place with a 10 year old Vivio. While I'm sure we'll be getting a few slice of life chapters, the real meat of Nanoha is magic battles, so I'm sure we'll be fed plenty of those too.

Nya~n

2009-03-18, 15:14

True. Age is no inclination of action. After all, Nanoha was only 9 when it all started.

Anh_Minh

2009-03-18, 17:23

Slice of life in the Nanohaverse: get up, go to school, cause large explosions.

FRS

2009-03-19, 04:36

Shouldn't we add: making new friend ?

LoweGear

2009-03-19, 04:52

That's a side effect of the above activities :p

Lute

2009-03-21, 09:54

Two questions:

1) How does one become a "striker", and

2) Is it an official designation?

Keroko

2009-03-21, 10:00

From Fate's words, where an Ace is a mage with high-level combat skills, a Striker is someone who can get others through rough situations.

Admittedly, she's very vague on the definition of the term. It does, however it doe seem to be a recognized designation.

PhoenixG

2009-03-21, 10:07

wasn't there also a condition about having a good teamwork? being a striker that is

Keroko

2009-03-21, 10:10

Hmm, not as far as I recall... teamwork is pretty much a base for anyone, really.

PhoenixG

2009-03-21, 10:49

Well for being an Ace is not really required

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-21, 11:19

Soccer metaphor.

Of course your team benefits from having a star player or two. But it also benefits from having "regulars" to fall back on; people with the training, experience, and attitude to get the job done even if they can't be the star. Think football, American style this time; it doesn't matter how much of a god your QB is if your offensive line can't pull their weight.

You can't train up aces. It requires natural talent that is either present or not. (Not saying that aces don't benefit from training, but there's nothing that will turn Caro into Nanoha.) But you can train regulars; in fact, the success of your training program relies on your ability to turn rookies into regulars with a good success rate. By that standard, Nanoha did a decent job - her rookies all turned out to be reliable and none of them broke when tested under fire. Sure, they're main characters and she enjoys a plot assist, but she's the title character. ;p

Of course, it's still complete bull hockey. Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate just plain don't belong in the same unit with a bunch of rookies; any assignment that requires their talents is something that's likely to get the rookies massacred. The show gets around that by throwing a fairly minor threat at the group and keeping the aces out of the picture with plot devices. If Nanoha and Fate hadn't started ep 16 of Strikers unarmed and way out of the picture, the show would not have made it to 20. ;p

On the other hand, if you see their assignment as "slumming"... kind of being a special forces unit while pretending that they're not... then it makes a little more sense. The real job of the aces is to save the world when necessary; they even say as much. You can't really have a military unit whose assigned role is "saviors of the world", since that's kind of hard on the morale of everybody else who will sit back and wonder "and just what are we here for, and why do we all have red shirts on?" So they need an ostensible reason to exist as a formed unit, but that assignment won't be much more than "kill time".

For Nanoha, killing time equates to training people; she's good at it (ostensibly - we've already discussed the writers' poor knowledge of proper military) and it makes her happy.

For Hayate, she can kill time with administrative stuff, since she's on the way to flag rank. She needs to learn how to run a unit's day-to-day business, the administrivia and all that. If she gets some actual combat leadership experience, that is a bonus, but it's not really why she's there.

For Fate, well, she's out of the investigative arm, and she spends most of Strikers investigating. She also gets to do something constructive for her semi-adopted foundlings, which also makes her happy.

You know, that kind of perspective makes RF6 make more sense than it does as a real formation. If it's just a fig leaf in the first place, designed to keep the aces happy and constructively occupied while they wait for the Big Scramble, that makes more sense than putting a bunch of S-rank mages in a formation with people who clock in at low B.

Xellos-_^

2009-03-21, 11:28

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-03-21, 18:35

And we all know those TSAB accountants are the real masterminds running the whole organization.

God help them if someone ends up costing them MORE money.

Xellos-_^

2009-03-21, 19:00

And we all know those TSAB accountants are the real masterminds running the whole organization.

that is true of any organization.

Avatar_notADV

2009-03-22, 21:21

I've mentioned before that "separating the chaff from the wheat" isn't something the TSAB is interested in - they seem to be as much of a job and lifestyle program for mages as they do a military. (Which makes sense, sort of. Civilian mages are -threats-. They can do all sorts of evil, criminal things if they decide to. They can go nuts and mow down people at a shopping mall. They can run away, find some forgotten/undiscovered society and horribly warp it, by accident or design. The TSAB has a genuine interest in keeping tabs on every mage they run across.

On top of that, we know that magical talent is at least partially genetic, and one of the easy ways to get more mages is to encourage your current mages to get together. I'd be surprised if there was a strict rule against marrying a "norm", but it's probably not unintentional that even relatively weak mages will spend a lot of their formative years exclusively in the company of other mages. Nor is it a surprise that the TSAB is the most family-friendly military in existence. ;p

I'm not saying that you couldn't turn Caro into a psychopathic killer. (Though Voltaire might have something to say about that...) But you can't make her into an ace - Caro's presence on the battlefield is not an "I WIN" button. After years of honing her skills in an environment that understands magic powers (even if her early years didn't "accept" them per se), she's still far, far behind the level that Nanoha had reached after a couple of days with RH. It's not because she's not trying hard, it's not because her training regimen is defective, it's just that Nanoha's a genuine natural, able to duke it out with elite TSAB forces from the get-go, while Caro... isn't. She's not bad; if anything, her potential is significantly higher than normal, as is the case with the other forwards. But Nanoha's pretty far off the right side of the magical bell curve.

The only one of the forwards who has the potential to become something truly unique is Subaru, and that's mostly because of her IS; used properly it's a melee I WIN. But it's not nearly as flexible - I don't think Subaru can do a non-lethal strike with it.

arkhangelsk

2009-04-15, 08:06

Except that, for all intent and purpose, quattro is order of magnitude less resistant than fate.

Realistically, Nanoha had no way of knowing that while fighting, and in fact neither do you.

Also, those factors are mstly useless in a situation where accident *can't* happen, and where indecivness can carry an extra tag price.

An accident can't happen? Indecisiveness can carry an extra price tag, but so can rash decisions.

Nanoha is anything but indecisive.

Nanoha is quite decisive, but not quite so inhumanly "decisive" that she can make decisions that risk hurting her friends without hesitation. Consider Ep2 A's, Ep10 or so A's, the scene where she split with Vita in the reactor.

Something to consider though: Nanoha and Fate happily go all out against each other. If Nate were overlaid over a Number, what's to say that Nanoha wouldn't fire anyway? If it's really Fate, then no harm, cuz Fate's strong enough to tank it. If it's not Fate, well they get hammered. Both ways work out.

For this specific case, this statement is canonically false for many years. According to the manga, they hadn't sparred with each other for years since Nanoha's little accident. So...

As for Eagle flight, misidentification is a common error, especially if you hadn't trained in it. Nobody said visual classification, especially in the heat of battle is 100% reliable. However, this is a separate issue from the importance of clearly seen visual input to humans.

It's not something you plan your strategy around however, as you're depending on your opponent screwing up.

What have I told you about depending on your opponent?

If you depend on the incompetence, predictability, reaction (or lack there of) of a specific opponent, and you AREN'T holding several degrees and PhDs in human Psychology and studied a person's history extensively, you're gambling. Xanatos Gambits aren't good ideas in realistic situations of combat.

In the suggestion, you say stick a 'Fate' illusion on a Number and hope it will shock and stall Nanoha from affecting 'Friendly Fire'. But who's to say if Nanoha's subject to enough combat stress to cloud her judgement? Who says she won't see right through the facade and simply slip out the phrase 'nice try' and blast them to cinders?

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to try as an EXTRA measure, but it's just that, EXTRA. Don't make that to primary method of saving your hide from an opponent. Because in the 50/50 chance that it fails on the spot, you're out of options and staring down a pink laser beam the size of a school bus.

Great, your first post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2341322&postcount=6470) basically says that a good IFF and competence will solve it, now it is only "maybe they'll override psychology"?

What I'm writing here is not so much the Psychology of a Specific Person, rather general principles, so it is not so much "depending on your opponent" as using human nature. If Nanoha is calm, it just means she'll be ABLE to eventually notice the anamoly of the missing IFF. Before the conscious can make its first move, the cognitive system's person recognition algorithms will have already classified her, based on visual appearance, as Fate, and the association that she's friendly will be right after. Even in a calm state, such a visual classification will have a strong potential that cannot be immediately reversed, much less to the extent of shooting at "Fate."

And lost seconds are lost seconds in a fight.

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-04-15, 10:09

arkhangelsk

2009-04-15, 10:46

IFF will help you, but if your opponent starts trying to spoof your IFF, there are several key elements that are going to give them away.

One, they're shooting at you. Like I said in my first post, if you're doing something that's very UN friendly or unlike their team mate, that IFF is known to be a spoof, it becomes wasted effort.

Yes, however, unless they make a mistake (remember what you said about relying on the enemy to make a mistake?) they get to decide when the IFF spoof is to be revealed. For example, if they suddenly shoot at you, they blow themselves, but if they blast right into your non-defended body, well, then they've already gotten the advantage they seeked to get.

Also, if you're trying to spoof IFF or make a friendly appear on an opponent like the Fate over Tre example, if Fate is in another dimension doing something else, the logic part of a mind as sharp as Nanoha's is going to be like... 'as if'.

If Fate is in another dimension, then the fact that the suddenly appearing Fate doesn't have a valid IFF may not necessarily mean anything.

Nanoha is a highly emotional person. Her first reaction on seeing simulated Fate is probably to yell "Fate-chan" (there goes a second or two right there). Even if she's wondering about her sudden appearance, she's likely to ask questions (seconds) first, not just say "Definite Enemy! Aim! Shoot!"

Then there's the fact that each IFF might be user unique IFF ID handshakes. Might kind of give it away if "Tia's" doing mach 2 at five thousand feet, or if there are two 'Fates' on the battlefield.

Well, the first is horrible deception. For the second, OK, there are two Fates, but how do you tell them apart quickly if the fake Fate isn't doing something blatantly obvious?

On top of this, Raising Heart, as an AI computer core, could be simultaniously tracking all friendly IDs continuously, and the appearance of an extra or duplicate IFF ID could cause the device to bark a warning into Nanoha's mind in advance of visual contact.

If it is known that Raising Heart or another has such a capability, it isn't too hard to work in an extra.

Even MORE so, if the IFFs are laser broadcast directly back and forth between devices, the 'exact fix' method, anyone trying to copypasta the IFF transmission has to get right through the transmission beam, and then they have the problem of matching the Exact Fix method, which means if they broadcast, they essentially light themselves like a radar to a HARM missile.

Which still leaves them the problem of the unmarked.

A smart fighter is going to use IFF to help keep people straight. A smart opponent is not going to be stupid enough to rely on spoofed IFF as a primary means of defensive action in a dogfight. Pretending to be a friend is not as easy as switching codes here.

As another minor factor, if both sides are engaged through IFF, transmitting a spoofed enemy IFF is a good way to get friendly fire as well. But this is minor in this environment.

A smart fighter knows that IFF is a tool, not a panacea. A smart opponent will certainly not use deception as his only means while he has a choice, but he'll always be keeping it in his arsenal.

Except Nanoha has never had to kill an opponent, and thus has not experienced the Psychological factors of killing. She's spent ten years operating on the mechanics that no matter how big the attack is, it can't kill anyone unless she says so. She has no reason to hesitate. (The 'safe mode' of magic is also Canon.)

The Safe Mode of magic is canon, and it helps, some. But ever since Vice, we know that the "safety" is limited and relative. A wrong combination of speed, power, proficiency (while Nanoha is more proficient than Vice, she's also using a lot more power) and impact area can still cause some irrevocable injuries.

The most you might get out of her would be a "Is that- No." A one second pause, which won't even be of any use because that delay would be while she's in a spell preparation stage.

Actually, that delay is rather unrealistically short. When she recognizes it is Fate, her most likely action would be to cancel her preparation towards the target until another reason is given to her.

Nanoha has almost BEEN killed, several times. (Vita almost caved in her skull in A's... And we all know stealth bots and backstabbing is a favored anti-mage technique.) ...but almost being killed and shrugging it off each time like she has (If you call several months physical therapy shrugging it off) is not the same as puking your guts out the first time you kill someone in combat and that little bit of your mind that tells you every time you kill someone that you just killed a piece of yourself.

It doesn't mean that Nanoha would treat the possibility of hurting one of her friends very easily.

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-04-15, 11:24

Except the killer you seemed to miss in all of this is was EXACT FIX. I (or rather my intelligent device) know where friendlies are at all times. If you add an duplicate friendly in suddenly, I KNOW that extra is fake because my device has been tracking all the known friendlies exact positions since deployment. The known friendly left my side, moved southeast, zigzagged all over a city block, moved north, then rounded southbound and then right angled and is currently off to my west. I know exactly where they are, and it's not this duplicate IFF that suddenly appeared four hundred meters ahead on the other side of the building.

Tracking and track history are wonderful tools, especially in the employment of a high speed processing core that can, in under a second, review the tracks of everyone in the area and trace them all back to the source.

A device like Raising Heart, handling that kind of tracking management, is going to know a non-friendly using false ID the moment it appears, it's going to tell the user exactly which one it is, and that will be the end of it.
In fact, if RH is handling IFF, it might not even bother to mark it as friendly for Nanoha and warn her the friendly isn't, there might be a friendly broadcast going on, but RH, having accounted for all active forces ID codes, simply transmits the ID of the target as 'hostile' and Nanoha never even 'sees' (Mentally) it as a friendly IFF in her mind.

It's an intelligent device, it's doing the job of an AWACS or coordination operator so Nanoha can concentrate on fighting. RH is a self learning AI... such methods of digital combat management are not beyond its processor abilities.

You have to get into extremely circumstantial territory and planning in order to spoof that level of IFF management. You have to either spoof an ID not deployed to the area, or pull the Ol' Switcharoo with a known friendly at point of contact.

The first method is countered with a digital handshake. If you're spoofing a friendly ID, Raising Heart goes through handshake procedure... the handshake is incorrect. RH immediately flags and repeats, if the correct handshake is not applied, the target is an enemy until proven otherwise.

The second method's counter depends on resolution of tracking. How close can the two signals be before they become one signal, and then, if tracking motion history, if the motions are natural, like pass through each other without delay (as if close pass), a person looking at a screen watching it would still know the friendly from the enemy.

And then if there is some doubt here, RH can still burst a handshake and instruct a code change on tight beam to the one who answers correctly. So really, the planning it takes to fool IFF in this environement vs the likelyhood of getting a decent advantage out of it just isn't worth the effort.

And of course, the most damning evidence, despite that she probably could have, Quattro didn't try and spoof IFFs or plaster friendlies on enemies and enemies on friendlies.

I see however, at the end of the conversation, you do agree with my conclusion.

arkhangelsk

2009-04-16, 00:44

Problem #1: Now that we are OUT of the OC thread (and thus the permissibility zone narrows), I can use this counter. You are imagining more and more abilities not in existence. The idea of RH managing tracks with digital perfection is laughable considering it can't even aim automatically on a single target, or do the computations to control 12 relatively slow moving rounds onto a target. Whatever its talents are, it is not in this.

If anything, even the sensor-computer complex on base apparently cannot solve such problems. Otherwise, Ep11-12 would be a no brainer. Remember that Quattro's decoys come up later - it started out being all originals. If the computer has such a continuous tracking capability, it'll be easy for the computer to know which tracks are real and which are decoys and GCI Nanoha and Fate to attacking the real ones. I know this means that Hayate won't get her debut, but they've been intent on shafting her anyway - one fewer scene is no different.

Problem #2: Even if I GRANT you this perfect Situational Awareness environment, you are still only caring about the intellectual side of all this. That's fine if you are commanding a bunch of auto-attack robots. But when you are commanding humans... and they see the targeting box surrounding something that is visually identifiable as a team-mate, it is hard to imagine they'll just decide instinctively to shoot.

Problem #3: Even a perfect transponder based IFF system (which is what this basically is) cannot solve problems concerning IFEN, which is an absolute requirement in the LE environment.

Avatar_notADV

2009-04-16, 01:47

Assuming that RH could tell that "hey, the friendly I'm looking at is not actually that friendly, because I -know- where that friendly is", presumably it wouldn't just get the mental equivalent of a targeting reticule, but instead a big red "this is a fake!" sign. 'course, whether it was a not-there decoy or a disguised enemy unit is a different matter, but it's at least plausible that spoofing friendlies is tougher than spoofing unfriendlies.

It's also not obvious that the problem with controlling energy shots is entirely related to processing capability. Nanoha, at the beginning of A's, is good enough to juggle a can with a single bullet, but not enough to sink the shot at the end (RH's "about 80 points.") With RH, she can easily use 4-5 shots. But as soon as she gets RH with the cartridge upgrade, suddenly she's got a dozen of them under control, something that's beyond Vita's -belief-.

Why would that be? It's not like the cartridge system made RH that much smarter, after all. But it did give it power to burn. Thinking about it, it's entirely possible that a significant amount of the difficulty of managing a homing shot is -physically turning the bullet-... after all, it's a speeding packet of magical energy that wants to whomp something in the direction it's moving in.

If that's the case, directing the homing bullet isn't just a matter of sending a signal and watching it magically feather its verniers - you'd have to haul the shot onto a new heading, and that's something that takes "go" juice. The device can help the mage focus the energy, but it's got to come from somewhere. That also would account for why the increase in power that the cartridge system gives Nanoha can increase her control of multiple powerful magical bullets - with more power, she can take stronger shots and maneuver them faster. (Of course, she'd been training for that sort of thing too, which I'm sure helped as well.)

I like that explanation - to my knowledge, it doesn't contradict anything in the show, and it would explain a few things (while neatly avoiding the problem of intelligent computers that are unable to calculate a ballistic trajectory, heh.)

Of course, saying that Quattro didn't take advantage of an opportunity isn't the same thing as saying she couldn't have. She's NOT a combat veteran, exactly. It could be something that simply hadn't occurred to her.

Then again, if she'd created a decoy Fate to attack Nanoha, can you imagine the resulting berserker rage? "Hole in Cradle" wouldn't have been the half of it. So maybe it's fortunate that she didn't, heh.

Jimmy C

2009-04-16, 06:24

Another reason why it might not be a good idea to cover someone under an illusion: The illusion and the person under it has to be perfectly synched. Miss by just a fraction of a second and extra limbs appear on the person, whoops!
So, while it may be possible for the caster to conceal herself using this, I don't think it's a good idea to use it on even an ally making quick strikes. And properly synching with a hostile should be outright impossible.

Keroko

2009-04-16, 06:32

Casting illusions on other people has been confirmed ever since the first episode of StrikerS though. Even Subaru moving at high speed bouncing of pilars and crashing into targets did not lose Teana's Optic Hide until well after she had pounded a targeting drone and was within range to execute their crossfire.

Jimmy C

2009-04-16, 07:00

I just think there's a difference between replacing a person with the background (that doesn't move) and replacing a person with another person (that has to move). Call it a hunch, but I think the latter would be more difficult than the former.

Keroko

2009-04-16, 07:03

Actually, realistically speaking I imagine the former to be harder, because the mere act of moving while under Optic Hide will cause the background to constantly change in a far greater variety then a normal person ever will.

Though as an illusion set in an anime, I really imagine there isn't much difference between the two.

Jimmy C

2009-04-16, 07:18

In that case, one way to deal with the issue is how the illusion is wrapped around the person. If it was projected on a cylinder around the person instead of being a body-conformal wrapping. That deals with the problem of the (real) person's limb movements. A hostile subject could still jump out of the illusion zone.
But IIRC, Tia's Optic Hide is body-conformal, right?

Keroko

2009-04-16, 07:30

I thought the plan here was to wrap an ally in an illusion of a hostile character in order to get a surprise attack? I agree that wrapping an illusion around an opponent is a whole different problem altogether.

Any such problems between allied characters however can be handwaved by letting the devices, or in the case of the numbers some form of mechanical link, handle the synchronization.

arkhangelsk

2009-04-16, 09:33

First, as to the problem of whether movements will make the situation much more complicated. If you assume a digital system, movements will require extra computations. However, if we assume an analogue system, then the conversions are fixed, and moving may not require extra effort in the same way a television screen (the good old analogue CRT variety) does not put significantly more effort in portraying moving characters (data) than portraying stationary characters (data).

As to the technical problem of putting illusions over a non-cooperative target. Well, it isn't going to be easier, but it won't necessarily be much harder. It seems probable that Optic Hide did not block Subaru's ability to see outside. In other words, light rays do go in normally, or nearly so. So, as long as she doesn't look at herself (and one doesn't have a lot of time to look at himself in a fight), he may not discover it.

A body conformal form will have problems when he looks at himself. But there seems little reason to believe a conformal form is intrinsic to illusion magic.

So, visually detecting it is almost impossible. His chances of detecting it otherwise (such as magically) will be severely degraded by all the fields mages tend to wrap around their bodies in a fight (such as Barrier Jackets), and their Base Sensitivity to relatively low power magics may not be very high to begin with.

And if he can't detect it, he isn't going to fight it.

Arkeus

2009-04-16, 09:39

As to the technical problem of putting illusions over a non-cooperative target. Well, it isn't going to be easier, but it won't necessarily be much harder. It seems probable that Optic Hide did not block Subaru's ability to see outside. In other words, light rays do go in normally, or nearly so. So, as long as she doesn't look at herself (and one doesn't have a lot of time to look at himself in a fight), he may not discover it.

A body conformal form will have problems when he looks at himself. But there seems little reason to believe a conformal form is intrinsic to illusion magic.

So, visually detecting it is almost impossible. His chances of detecting it otherwise (such as magically) will be severely degraded by all the fields mages tend to wrap around their bodies in a fight (such as Barrier Jackets), and their Base Sensitivity to relatively low power magics may not be very high to begin with.

And if he can't detect it, he isn't going to fight it.

Except that Invisibility can be detected if one is ready for it (Fate in A's) *and* that Subaru may very well have been blind during optic hide: A mage doesn't need his eyes to see, as Nanoha was shown quite a few times to direct her shooters while having her eyes close for better concentration.

JamesEdwards

2009-04-16, 09:50

Except that Invisibility can be detected if one is ready for it (Fate in A's) *and* that Subaru may very well have been blind during optic hide: A mage doesn't need his eyes to see, as Nanoha was shown quite a few times to direct her shooters while having her eyes close for better concentration.

...Oi, oi, you don't seriously believe in that Japanese hotblood image training stuff, do you? ...If there's a war, mon ami, I don't want to be anywhere near you when they give you a rifle. Last thing I want to see is someone trying to shoot with their eyes closed thank you very much. :uhoh:

Arkeus

2009-04-16, 09:58

...Oi, oi, you don't seriously believe in that Japanese hotblood image training stuff, do you? ...If there's a war, mon ami, I don't want to be anywhere near you when they give you a rifle. Last thing I want to see is someone trying to shoot with their eyes closed thank you very much. :uhoh:

Shrugs. We see it a few times. IT could be that her device gives her image instead (as we know virtual training is possible) though. But yeah, she did close her eyes in ep 1, and in her first time using Axel shooters.

Those are *quite* obvious.

arkhangelsk

2009-04-16, 10:04

Except that Invisibility can be detected if one is ready for it (Fate in A's) *and* that Subaru may very well have been blind during optic hide: A mage doesn't need his eyes to see, as Nanoha was shown quite a few times to direct her shooters while having her eyes close for better concentration.

Yes, but they are clearly exceptions - it is clear that even among those that have some ability (there's no evidence Subaru has it), the eyes are the primary sensing system. Thus the high probability the optic hide was not blinding.

Arkeus

2009-04-16, 10:09

Yes, but they are clearly exceptions - it is clear that even among those that have some ability (there's no evidence Subaru has it), the eyes are the primary sensing system. Thus the high probability the optic hide was not blinding.

Exception? it seems to be basic magical sensing. Nanoha just shows it more because she needs to concentrates on her shots more (as she is a character that uses lots of control-dependant shots at once).

JamesEdwards

2009-04-16, 10:12

Shrugs. We see it a few times. IT could be that her device gives her image instead (as we know virtual training is possible) though. But yeah, she did close her eyes in ep 1, and in her first time using Axel shooters.

Those are *quite* obvious.

Uhhh, I was under the impression that Axel Shooter / Accel Shooter was a Raising Heart Excellion (ver. 1) upgrade spell. Raising Heart itself originally had Divine Shooter...not that I think it particularly matters in the context of your hypothesis, since they're in the same class of "homing bullet" shooting spells. And honestly, I think, we are all putting in a little too much stock in the sophistication of devices in Nano-verse canon, period.

That said, by Nanoverse standards, she probably did succeed in Japanese hotblood image training for on-screen drama, which I am extremely skeptical of working in real life. Human beings are pretty pathetic, inefficient organisms, with no special talents to speak of, except for our intelligence and, if you're a romantic, hotblood.

Jimmy C

2009-04-16, 11:04

However, if we assume an analogue system, then the conversions are fixed, and moving may not require extra effort in the same way a television screen (the good old analogue CRT variety) does not put significantly more effort in portraying moving characters (data) than portraying stationary characters (data).

No no, I'm not concerned about processing power to render the illusion. They're quite adequate in that department. What I am concerned about is predicting the target's movements in advance so you can keep the illusion on top of them. For instance, the target makes a sudden left turn but the illusion keeps going straight. Oops, illusion broken. It's worse if the illusion is body-conformal, because then you'd have to monitor limb movement along with gross position.
This can somewhat be dealt with when covering allies via communications, but you're unlikely to have that when you're trying to pull this stunt on a hostile, right?

arkhangelsk

2009-04-16, 22:03

Prediction is nice, but the illusion will be maintained as long as any lag times are kept to a minimum.

Your scenario will only likely occur in a digital system, if its processing is not fast enough. With an analogue system, the change in position will be immediately reflected in the output. It is this quality in analogue systems that made them preferable in various tasks until digital computers got fast enough.

ghazghkull

2009-05-26, 14:20

BTW we never really determined the military structure of the TSAB right?

And for the love of god just give me a Yes or No answer. Nothing long winded please.

LoweGear

2009-05-26, 14:23

Not really no. We can only infer stuff from the series itself, but nothing concrete.

Keroko

2009-05-26, 14:28

A simple 'no' is too short for a single post, so... no.

Wild Goose

2009-05-26, 19:15

BEst we can determine is that the TSAB is a mostly gendarmie; it's organised on military lines, but it's responsibilities lie with law enforcement and peacekeeping; considering that there aren't that many hot spots, the bulk of the TSAB's duties tend to fall in between a peacetime military and police force, such as investigations into criminal activities (police) and Search & Rescue, disaster relief (military).

Dark Wing

2009-06-17, 18:46

Now as I posted previously in the Q&A thread and I quote...

I don't know if this has been stated yet or not but is there any reason given to why a world like earth is never made part of the TSAB?

Are there some kind of requirements or something?

And I've gotten plenty of good replies so I would like to expand on it more here. Reasons the TSAB would have to deny a non-administrated world (prime ex: Earth) entry into the organization.

Now I have lack of magical users and no unified government so can anyone else think of any other reasons?

Also while we are at it what do you think would happen if the TSAB made official of earth or earth somehow become aware of mages?

Tempest Dynasty

2009-06-17, 18:54

Guns. MILLIONS of them.

And the millions of folks very willing to pull the trigger.

No mass weapons? Gotta give them up?

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ.

AtomicoX

2009-06-17, 19:03

Nuclear war, all hail the uranium. WMD vs Magic, I'd like to see to see the result.

On another note, population of Earth would most probably be jealous of magic and mages. Cue distortion and an unstable relationship between Earth and TSAB. Human nature, as per usual.

Evangelion Xgouki

2009-06-17, 19:04

"Fire ze missiles!"

"...but I am le tired."

"Go take a nap then. THEN FIRE ZE MISSLES!"

Dark Wing

2009-06-17, 19:13

On another note, population of Earth would most probably be jealous of magic and mages. Cue distortion and an unstable relationship between Earth and TSAB. Human nature, as per usual.

well if The TSAB can show that even Non-Magical users have a place in the organization it could make a positive impact that even if you can't use magic we are still equal.

AtomicoX

2009-06-17, 19:17

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-06-17, 19:27

Earth, in the grand scheme of things, has a very unstable, unreliable, underhanded, and childish population.

To start with governments, the planet is fractured some eighty different ways, glued together by the banding together of a couple of superpowers in the last century. Half the planet's governments here on Earth are still run either by a psychopath, a military regime, a king/emperor of some kind with no real qualifications, or a council of paranoid morons.
Entire continents are still a hundred years behind in one way or another, there are huge discrepencies in the spread of material resources and wealth, and at any given time, half the planet wants to kill the other half over some stupid slight.

In general, the Earth as a whole if packed chock full of immature, selfish, egotistical narcisistic dumbasses who can't even agree to disagree without killing someone, and everyone in the immediate vicinity who aren't even involved.

The Earth is not ready to be admitted to a larger entity... Our Primary Export would be nothing but xenophobes with bombs strapped to them.

JINNSK

2009-06-17, 19:35

Dark Wing

2009-06-17, 19:37

True, but even if they do (and if I remember correctly some can't use magic within the TSAB already), people would still feel being "under" them so to speak. It's an unavoidable thing most of the time and it's often played on in a lot of fiction and occasionally IRL...which may be why I'm so influenced in that sort of thinking.

well naturally there are more then a few people who would take the invitation the wrong way but I like to believe that there are still humans who can be understanding.

I can see people actually thinking about what could be gained form joining the TSAB.

MeisterBabylon

2009-06-17, 23:02

Some documents speak about the reason why the Earth isn't administrated.
Basically TSAB's law defines an administrated world is a world that people can move to other worlds over dimensional sea.

For more information,please translate following quoted texts.

This explanation is from trading card SP01
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/th_sp01b.png (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/sp01b.png)

Chronicle 7page also mentions same thing.And so, they are waiting for us to develop warp travel before making first contact? What is this, reverse Star Trek? :uhoh:

Earth now cannot be ruled by anyone. It isn't really ruled stably at the moment even. The TSA Brass would know that any interested party in joining the Bureau has no pure intentions; while they themselves aren't that pure either, as long as Earth has nothing to offer except trouble, nothing would ever happen. Give Vivio a couple hundred years to work the ground from the shadows, then seize the chance when things do awry and emerge as God-Empress of Man, then let's talk about joining our brethren in the stars.

In the meantime, I call the TSAB actively sabotaging Earth's development on the sly by maintaining our current chaos so that we can be contained until a proper solution emerges in the first place. We've seen one such proxy war; Earth's World War II coincided with the constitutional founding of the TSAB and the MC calendar for a reason. Only problem was they gave us such a big war they pushed our development rather than hindered it with that. Since then, they've learned their lesson and fed no big wars, sparking only very small ones here and there. Of course, some results turned out too well, but everything is generally within foreplanned parameters.

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-18, 01:23

Keroko

2009-06-18, 02:20

Some documents speak about the reason why the Earth isn't administrated.
Basically TSAB's law defines an administrated world is a world that people can move to other worlds over dimensional sea.

For more information,please translate following quoted texts.

This explanation is from trading card SP01
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/th_sp01b.png (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/JINNSK/tmp/sp01b.png)

Chronicle 7page also mentions same thing.

A rather vague explanation, though. There are several ways to interpret that.

Does it literally mean one is able to travel there? -In that case earth would have been administered.

Does it mean it is a key point towards several worlds? -The Wolkies sure seemed to think so.

Personally I think it refers to civilians being able to travel there, in other words either colonized or at least having friendly relationships with the Bureau.

Bah, you're overthinking it.

*snicker* I can't believe you actually took that seriously. Meister was just throwing out a silly conspiracy theory for giggles.

(Well, and they speak Japanese, but that's likely just anime making everyone speak Japanese, just like normal.)

I've always been an advocate of not taking the whole language thing in Nanoha seriously. If you start to try and find a logical explanation, all you'll find is more problems.

LoweGear

2009-06-18, 02:33

A rather vague explanation, though. There are several ways to interpret that.

Does it literally mean one is able to travel there? -In that case earth would have been administered.

Does it mean it is a key point towards several worlds? -The Wolkies sure seemed to think so.

Personally I think it refers to civilians being able to travel there, in other words either colonized or at least having friendly relationships with the Bureau.

My impression is that an Administered World is a world whose native technology allows them to travel to through the Dimensional Sea, ex. Earth only becoming an Administered World if we suddenly invented the technology to travel practically through dimensional space. If you're someone who has a non-interference policy in place, then you wouldn't want to have business with people who don't even have the knowledge to get out of their own backyard so to speak.

Wild Goose

2009-06-18, 04:08

Face it: we've got nukes, millions of guns, and are as a whole a pretty selfish, childish, trigger happy planet. Who created tentacle porn, furries and many terrible things.

We have legions of misaimed fandoms worshipping Freddy and Jason and other psychopathic serial killers.

Nobody in their right minds is going to want to have anything to do with this planet.

(As for TSAB encountering an Earthlike planet... in my little corner of the OCverse, about a year before SSX came out, Kagerou and I created a planet called Erusia, which was involved with a long ass guerilla war with the TSAB, details of which can be found by reading the links in my sig. TSAB attempting to come and setup shop on Earth would turn the whole planet into a planet-wide version of the Iraq War crossed with The Resistance from Terminator Salvation, with a possible Awakening if the TSAB plays their cards right.)

Evangelion Xgouki

2009-06-18, 11:37

Given their use of Barriers to conceal their battles on a Non-Administered World (as well as the extensive damage it causes :heh: ) I would guess that the TSAB has a set of regulations in place akin to the Prime Directive (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Prime_directive).

stormturmoil

2009-06-18, 16:39

Bah, you're overthinking it.

The TSAB doesn't need to sabotage dozens of other worlds from the shadows. That's -not what it's for-, and frankly, it wouldn't be terribly good at it. What it does do, is make sure that nobody does what you suggest - go take some Mid magic and set up a pocket empire somewhere, lording it over the locals. It also spends a good amount of time worrying about Lost Logia, which are scattered around to start with.

To the extent that they're interested in Earth at all, it was only because accident and happenstance brought them there when they detected Nanoha and Fate exploding at each other. And if you look at the cabin where Lindy interviewed Nanoha and Yuuno for the first time, it was pretty obviously something that had been thrown together by someone who had a lot of resources, a book on Japan, and a very short amount of time to read it... just long enough to get an idea that maybe you should have bonsai trees and green tea but not long enough to realize that you don't SUGAR the green tea. That's not the act of a shadowy organization who's been making the nations of your world dance like a puppet for decades, that's a British explorer who finds himself blown to the shore of Tokugawa Nippon and has nothing to go from but having once read Hpeffenpfieffer's monologue on his travels there thirty years ago.

(Well, and they speak Japanese, but that's likely just anime making everyone speak Japanese, just like normal.)

While I'm not saying this is not broadly correct, the STAB must have some ongoing interest in Earth itself, rather than just appearing for Fate V Nanoha, or Gil Graham would not have been able to find an injured Bureau Clerk and thus be recruited.

Alos, the Nakajima's having emigrated to Mid from Earth suggests more than a sudden discovery.

presumably, there must be some reason the Bureau keep popping up on earth, even if it's just Cultural observers.

Maybe they're worried that we're on the verge of some major technological breakthrough that'll take us into dimensional travel, and we're frustrating them by continually not inventing it...

Rising Dragon

2009-06-18, 16:40

Or maybe they're observing Earth without making contact with it because its their job.

Anh_Minh

2009-06-18, 16:48

While I'm not saying this is not broadly correct, the STAB must have some ongoing interest in Earth itself, rather than just appearing for Fate V Nanoha, or Gil Graham would not have been able to find an injured Bureau Clerk and thus be recruited.

Alos, the Nakajima's having emigrated to Mid from Earth suggests more than a sudden discovery.

presumably, there must be some reason the Bureau keep popping up on earth, even if it's just Cultural observers.

Maybe they're worried that we're on the verge of some major technological breakthrough that'll take us into dimensional travel, and we're frustrating them by continually not inventing it...

Doesn't mean the Earth is special, though - there might be immigrants from dozens of other non-administered worlds.

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-18, 21:43

DID Nakajima emigrate? I was under the impression that Subaru's name, despite having Japanese flavoring, was definitely Mid (i.e. she's really Subaru Nakajima, not Nakajima Subaru).

Been too long since I've seen Strikers, need to fix that.

Seriously, though, it's not like Mid is the freakin' Federation. It's also, to put it bluntly, quite young; Earth nations have much more thorough histories than Mid does. (Think about it - could YOU figure out some place where a flying invincible flagship could play a decisive role in an Earth war and then have everyone else forget that it even existed? After the Renaissance? I sure can't.)

It's obvious (from all the ruined cityscape still out there) that something pretty catastrophic happened on Mid, recently enough that they haven't fully rebuilt from it. It doesn't take much to assume that dimensional travel or Lost Logia were involved (they definitely don't have the flavor of "oh, we did it to ourselves!") This would explain well their desire to explore surrounding dimensions, looking for threats, and their desire to seal away dangerous Lost Logia, without really getting up to anything like empire-building.

It's obvious that they've been to Earth before, but not that they have any "continued interest" there. It's not like they've got a local listening post or anything...

Jimmy C

2009-06-18, 22:23

You forgot the part where Subaru said her father's ancestors were from Earth.
And while the Bureau may be young, civilization on Mid isn't.

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-06-18, 23:11

It's not that Earth was suddenly discovered. It's more like it's the middle of nowhere pacific island village nobody really bothers with.

It's on a list of a hundred worlds or more as number ninty-seven. That means there were ninty-six other worlds with civilizations on them that were found prior to Earth.

Earth itself has precisely single digit count of native mages, and even fewer logia. There are no special resources the Bureau would find on Earth that it hasn't found already on any number of Administered, or early Non-Administered worlds. So by the time they even get to Earth on the Lists, they've well established a criteria for where to place Earth in the archives based on established experience.

Earth gets slapped down as 'Mostly Harmless' (As the Guide would say...) and just be another coordinet on a patrol route. Probably with instructions like "Peak in on this world and gather some culture and technological developement updates and move along."

Occaisionally on those routine patrols, there might be something going on with Earth that requires maybe one pair of boots on the ground at the most. Perhaps fleeing dimensional criminals thinking they can blend in with the society and things of that nature.

But most of the time, nothing requiring them to really set up shop, and certainly not requiring them to go and try to govern the place. Not that they'd want to govern a place like Earth.

Rising Dragon

2009-06-18, 23:19

Skane

2009-06-18, 23:25

As far as I can tell, the only real resource that Earth has that TSAB would find valuable is the fact that it occasionally produces mages of exceptional strength, as we see with Nanoha, Hayate, and Graham.
Not frequent enough to justify.

Not to mention that their "power levels" are not that uncommon on Mid. Our perspective is just a little skewered because they are the protagonists of the show.

The presence of the Three Admirals and the casual mentioning of other mages that are higher-ranked than the Fab-Trio is evidence enough that while Mages of their calibre is extraordinary for Earth, it is not so for Midchida.

Cheers.

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-19, 00:10

I think you're mistaken on that.

There -are- mages as, or more, powerful than Nanoha/Fate/Hayate. They're really, really thin on the ground, however. The TSAB can't, literally, -can not- whistle up whole squads full of S-rankers. (If they could, then engaging the Knights with the mooks that they did would be nothing short of criminally incompetent. Nor would there be any point to formations like the 108th...)

On the other hand, they're not so rare that TSAB isn't willing to release Nanoha from active duty to ride herd on Vivio. Mind you, that's an important duty and requires a powerful mage too. (For that matter, it's entirely possible that Nanoha isn't off-duty, so to speak, so much as she's just playing bodyguard. After all, someone's already tried using Vivio to power a civilization-conquering warship once...)

Rising Dragon

2009-06-19, 01:08

Doesn't matter if its not that uncommon in Mid, Skane. I'm just saying, that's possibly the only resource that Earth has that the TSAB would be interested in, whatever the amount of interest is.

Keroko

2009-06-19, 05:32

Not frequent enough to justify.

Not to mention that their "power levels" are not that uncommon on Mid. Our perspective is just a little skewered because they are the protagonists of the show.

The presence of the Three Admirals and the casual mentioning of other mages that are higher-ranked than the Fab-Trio is evidence enough that while Mages of their calibre is extraordinary for Earth, it is not so for Midchida.

Cheers.

You are right that our perspective might be skewered, but ironically its more likely in the other direction.

StrikerS presented us with a few B-rank mages that managed to read AA-rank at the end of the series. This makes it appear that AA-rank is something of the standard. It isn't, as booklets have noted that for the majority of the mages B-rank is already an impassible wall.

even AA-ranks are already on the level of 'rare elites'

Skane

2009-06-19, 12:14

You are right that our perspective might be skewered, but ironically its more likely in the other direction.

StrikerS presented us with a few B-rank mages that managed to read AA-rank at the end of the series. This makes it appear that AA-rank is something of the standard. It isn't, as booklets have noted that for the majority of the mages B-rank is already an impassible wall.

even AA-ranks are already on the level of 'rare elites'
Not everybody gets to be a SEAL or SAS, but they're not exactly super rare either.

We're talking about verified single-digit mages from Earth here, and Hayate was an exceptional case in that the TotNS tagged her on its next reincarnation. Nanoha and Graham, out of 6 BILLION (plus, plus) people.

You can literally cut off your thumb and still count the number of Mages from Earth. Nanoha and Graham just happen to be of a higher calibre, but it is no guarantee that all of them will be, as Subaru's father shows.

Midchilda is a world where Mages are common, as in hundreds, thousands, of them.

It makes no sense to waste resources to scan for Mages on Earth.

It would be akin to finding a 10-kilo diamond on Mars and deciding to burn trillions of dollars just to find more of it based on that ONE sample.

Natch.

Keroko

2009-06-19, 13:18

I think you misunderstood what I tried to convey here, I didn't mean to say that earth was a viable resource for mages -I fully agree with you on the department that the costs would not outweigh the gains, if any are there at all- but merely that mages above B-rank are indeed uncommon, and will only increase in rarity as the ranks go up.

Xellos-_^

2009-06-19, 13:31

Not everybody gets to be a SEAL or SAS, but they're not exactly super rare either.

We're talking about verified single-digit mages from Earth here, and Hayate was an exceptional case in that the TotNS tagged her on its next reincarnation. Nanoha and Graham, out of 6 BILLION (plus, plus) people.

You can literally cut off your thumb and still count the number of Mages from Earth. Nanoha and Graham just happen to be of a higher calibre, but it is no guarantee that all of them will be, as Subaru's father shows.

Midchilda is a world where Mages are common, as in hundreds, thousands, of them.

It makes no sense to waste resources to scan for Mages on Earth.

It would be akin to finding a 10-kilo diamond on Mars and deciding to burn trillions of dollars just to find more of it based on that ONE sample.

Natch.

I agree with you on the cost of finding mages on Earth since Lindy is living there anyway and TSAB is still paying a salary. They might as well have her look around.

And while Mid has a lot of mages, it is still only a very small faction of the general pop. 99% of mages are on the D and C lvl, fewer can graduate to the B and ever fewer to A and above.

itanshi1

2009-06-19, 14:24

Makes you want to create a section 11 ScoutS series :P

What are all the sections? Section six is also the primary one featured in Ghost in the Shell.

Anh_Minh

2009-06-19, 16:00

Not everybody gets to be a SEAL or SAS, but they're not exactly super rare either.

We're talking about verified single-digit mages from Earth here, and Hayate was an exceptional case in that the TotNS tagged her on its next reincarnation. Nanoha and Graham, out of 6 BILLION (plus, plus) people.

You can literally cut off your thumb and still count the number of Mages from Earth. Nanoha and Graham just happen to be of a higher calibre, but it is no guarantee that all of them will be, as Subaru's father shows.

Midchilda is a world where Mages are common, as in hundreds, thousands, of them.

It makes no sense to waste resources to scan for Mages on Earth.

It would be akin to finding a 10-kilo diamond on Mars and deciding to burn trillions of dollars just to find more of it based on that ONE sample.

Natch.

There are few Earth mage at least in part because we don't know magic. Two centuries ago, there weren't a lot of quantum physicists around either, but it doesn't mean our ancestors were dumb. If Yuuno hadn't come to Earth, Nanoha might never have been a mage, for example. So I guess the question is, how hard are is it to find people with worthwhile mage potential compared to the TSAB's need for talented personnel? All we can really say is that they're not doing it, but they might have other reasons for that. Ethical ones, for example.

itanshi1

2009-06-19, 16:53

They seem to have no qualms with taking on new talent what with all the hiring of their enemies. I wonder if this speaks to their need for such talent.

arkhangelsk

2009-06-19, 21:09

They seem to have no qualms with taking on new talent what with all the hiring of their enemies. I wonder if this speaks to their need for such talent.

They definitely consider themselves shorthanded enough to hire a bunch of criminals.

There are few Earth mage at least in part because we don't know magic. Two centuries ago, there weren't a lot of quantum physicists around either, but it doesn't mean our ancestors were dumb. If Yuuno hadn't come to Earth, Nanoha might never have been a mage, for example. So I guess the question is, how hard are is it to find people with worthwhile mage potential compared to the TSAB's need for talented personnel? All we can really say is that they're not doing it, but they might have other reasons for that. Ethical ones, for example.

Not such a good analogy, but you are probably right. What we see so far suggests that without some kind of contact with existing magic, people in the Nanoverse DO NOT suddenly manifest magical abilities (no when I was a baby I accidentally flambed my house when I cried kind of stuff) even if they clearly are near the top of the talent bracket. Without doing some pretty intensive reconaissance in force, most potential mages on Earth are probably hidden.

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-20, 03:47

S'true, magic in Nanoha is -hard-. It doesn't just happen, it takes significant support hardware and/or even more complicated artifacts to happen at all. After years of training, Nanoha and Fate (without their devices) are barely able to do something that a D&D wizard would be ashamed to call a cantrip. It's safe to say that virtually no magical accidents "just happen" in Nanoha; there has to be some sort of equipment involved.

Keep in mind that the TSAB may not be acting out of pure desperation when it "hires a bunch of criminals", as it were. By co-opting borderline cases and aligning them with itself, the TSAB gets a lot stronger; not only does it not have to fight these people in the future, or have them all in a prison waiting for someone else to bust them out, Arkham-style, but they become active defenders of Mid. This goes double when you think of the TSAB as half military and half giant social network for mages - you bring the suspect on board, you treat 'im well, you make sure all his new buddies are your people, if he runs into a cute girl SHE'S one of your people too... and when the time comes, he's one of your people. And his kids too, heh.

Outlaender

2009-06-20, 16:14

Keroko

2009-06-20, 17:24

And once again Yuuno, a mage who without a single device can cast barriers which Nanoha, quote, needs her strongest magic to break, end quote, is forgotten.

Of course this does nothing to disprove the magic accident, but magic in Nanoha does not need heavy support. Nanoha and Co just made one of the greatest mistakes you can make in life, become overly reliant on a crutch.

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-21, 20:06

Ah, crap! You're right, I totally forgot about Yuuno.

So how does he do it? Is he, in some way, enough of a "magical creature" that all the support stuff isn't as necessary? (Granted that he's brainy, and could maybe do more in his head than a normal person. But Aruf can do some similar magic, even though she's definitely NOT. But she's definitely a magical creature. Hm...)

Wow. That's a hell of a plot hole in Strikers, then. No wonder they wrote Yuuno and Aruf out of the main cast.

Maybe Yuuno's got a device, but he's just subtle about it? (But then, why have that and RH? Because RH is some kind of combat veteran? Yuuno's device is a pacifist? Too complicated.) Or maybe he's just close enough to being a magical beastie to count as one, for the purposes of whether you can do spells without devices?

How does that work with respect to Zafira, then? He's a familiar, but he's also a Knight-construct and not an ordinary familiar. If he can cast like a familiar, maybe Vita could too? Or did the Book just build them differently?

LoweGear

2009-06-21, 20:34

Don't think a deviceless magic user is a plot hole, especially since we've never shown that case in StrikerS to be impossible - heck, in order to prove a point to Teana and Subaru (and teach them a lesson) Nanoha sealed RH and started casting spells without it. It's just that if you have something that makes casting magic easier for you, why not use it?

We can assume that most people can cast simpler spells easily without devices, but as the spell gets more complicated the calculations and power required become more demanding and expensive, and while one can still cast them manually, in the heat of battle having a device is much easier than not having one. And of course, with the TSAB requiring more and more mages to fill in the ranks it's obvious that they're not going to wait around and extensively train mages to be able to use spells without a device - they're gonna want to break in mages with potential quickly and easily, hence the issuing of storage devices to mages. Note that intelligent devices aren't even the norm in the Nanohaverse, and that unintelligent basic storage devices are the most ubiquitous devices issued to the front line grunts, which points out that heavy support software and hardware isn't required for most mages to fly, cast shields or shoot magic beams (as shown with all the Air and Ground Forces grunts - keep in mind that B-rank is the canonical limit for your average mage as Keroko mentioned above).

Nya~n

2009-06-21, 20:46

Well, the spells have always been described as equations, so I guess the Devices could be described as calculators that we use in Maths. Sure, if the spell's simple enough, you can work it manually, but why do that when you have a device doing that for you?

But then again, if you're already so familiar with the workings of a particular equation and keep using the same values, you'd be able to do it in a jiffy, which is probably what Yuuno and guys are doing.

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-21, 21:11

I still can't square that with Strikers. Yuuno can -fly-, without having to invoke magic, the same as pretty much everybody else. But neither Nanoha or Fate can fly without their devices, despite being way, way more powerful than Yuuno (else, why do the elevator cable rappel trick? You could say "saving energy!" except Yuuno never looked like flying was making him sweat...)

At the same time, Yuuno's magic is pretty varied. Teleportation, sealing, healing, barriers, shields, freakin' library searching. Not saying that everybody else is a one-trick pony (especially Nanoha, who's really good at extemporizing even from the beginning), but it's hard to believe that "shoot that" requires so much more calculation when compared to the complex stuff Yuuno gets up to.

It might not come all the way up to "plot hole", but it's at least an unexplained mystery. Except that, if you put the meta hat on, it's not really; Yuuno can do the same things as Aruf and Zafira because, as far as the writers were concerned, he's filling the same role.

LoweGear

2009-06-21, 21:33

As already pointed out, it's hardly an unexplained mystery if you take the calculator analogy - people can do math, but it's easier for many to do it using a calculator. And there will be some people who have mastered mathematics so well that they can outcalculate a calculator using only mental calculation, while there are others who can't even live without calculators to do simple operations (like me for example >.> ). I (analogous to your average magi) can probably divide 1,389 by 297 if you give me a few minutes (or hours) to work on it, but someone with a good grasp of mathematics like a passionate math professor (analogous to a skilled mage) or someone with a calculator (analogous to your average grunt mage with a device) can get the answer in mere seconds.

It's just a sign of the variation within the magical capabilities of Nanohaverse mages - some mages can do some things better than others. The Aces can perform all their nifty SS+ Rank Buster Spells, but they need a device to fly, whereas Yuuno isn't quite as powerful, but is more well rounded even without a device.

Rising Dragon

2009-06-21, 22:32

Jimmy C

2009-06-21, 22:41

It prefers female operators.

Arkeus

2009-06-21, 22:58

...

Who Said only Yuuno could Fly without a Device?

first, all familiars are shown to be able to do so. Second, we are shown a few times Nanoha "hovering" as she stops using her device, so i am unsure she can't.

As for that thing about Yuuno being so much better without a devices than other characters, Vita could use most type of defenses without using hers, Fate was shown to be able to use blitz action, and nanoha to be able to use round shield, remote binds, *and* a type of spell she isn't that much used to (Tea's spell).

Yuuno, on his hand, had been shown to be able to be used only contact magic (his binds all have a direct links to his circle), if we expect his Barriers, and those are not only his known speciality, but also a stationary spell.

So, my own little pet theories is that Remote magic is that much more "leaking" than other types, and so in order to use some without losing most of the spell, you'd need to use a device.

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-22, 01:08

Didn't Yuuno (with the familiars) help teleport the Book up into orbit? Dunno if that can be considered "touch" magic.

It goes beyond "well, why doesn't Yuuno have a device"? If it's just a matter of him being good at magic, well, wouldn't he be better with being that good AND having a device? The only way that his not acquiring a device makes sense is that one genuinely wouldn't do him a lot of good. There's only one class of people who don't get any benefits from a device in Nanoha; that's familiars.

What about Vivid? Vivio's little friends have devices, even if they're devices with training wheels, and Sacred Heart is the equivalent of a motorcycle with "Widowmaker" stamped on its 1000cc engine...

Serous

2009-06-22, 03:01

Yunno seems to have more in common with familiars than mages/knights.

Speaking of familiars, anyone know why they have no need for devices? I'm thinking its because of their nature.

LoweGear

2009-06-22, 03:49

Well, if devices are supposed to make things easier, why did Yuuno have such a hard time using Raising Heart?

I wouldn't say that he had a hard time using RH, since we've only seen him use it once. Also, devices may make things easier for people, but only if you know how to use them. A gun may kill people easier, but someone who doesn't know how to work one may end up using it the wrong way (like a glorified club) or worse hurt themselves with it. Just because a device makes things easier doesn't mean you can use it with ignorance.

It can also be the case that RH was simply not compatible with Yuuno: RH is the only known example we have of an Intelligent Device that was not created with a specific user in mind. Bardiche, Mach Caliber, Cross Mirage, Storm Raider, and Sacred Heart are all ID's made to specification with their intended users in mind, whereas RH obviously was not made for Nanoha and yet was compatible with her. Much like how someone used to Mac may not adapt easily to using Windows and vice versa, so might a device be more difficult to use for some people than others.

What about Vivid? Vivio's little friends have devices, even if they're devices with training wheels, and Sacred Heart is the equivalent of a motorcycle with "Widowmaker" stamped on its 1000cc engine...

Vivio is a strange case, but still has something to tell about mages: Vivio herself doesn't even have a device before Sacred Heart, and we know Vivio doesn't bring Raising Heart to school as her tentative device. So either:

1. Magic School requires students without devices to practice their magic at home; which would be akin to telling music students that you can only practice music at home,
2. Magic School gives training devices to students who don't have them but only within the school grounds, or
3. Students can practice magic without devices, and those that have devices aren't prohibited from doing so.

----

On another matter, why is Yuuno still being classed as a "familiar"? While Yuuno does share transformation traits with Arf and Zafira, a few things make him different, for one we know Yuuno isn't an artificial being like the classification of familiars, and he doesn't have a known link to any mage.

Keroko

2009-06-22, 04:26

Here's an analogy I thought up, inspired by my own experiences if you will.

Imagine two people who go to the same high school, that school is about 12 KM from the town they live in. To go there, due to the horrible nature of public transport in their town, they need to travel on their own. One of the friends bought a scooter, the other goes by bike.

The friend with the scooter will usually get to school quicker and more easy than the friend with the bike. However, one day the scooter breaks down, and now the friend has to go to school by bike. The two friends decide to travel together, since they are now both traveling the same way. However, after only a few kilometers, the friend with the scooter has to stop to take a breather. The friend with the bike is confused, it has only been a few kilometers at a leisure pace, why is his friend exhausted?

The answer is simple. The friend with the bike has been traveling by bike all this time. where he used to take close to an hour to get to school, he now only takes half an hour. His normal speed has increased due to traveling 24 kilometers a day, five days in the week. His stamina has grown too, allowing him to keep up those speeds for longer periods of time. The friend with the scooter on the other hand has relied on his scooter to get him from home to school and back, which saved him a lot of energy, but also hampered his physical training. He can no longer even ride along his friend on a bike.

Now imagine the friend with the bike to be Yuuno, and the friend with the scooter to be Nanoha. Sure, as long as she has Raising Heart Nanoha is faster and more powerful, but she has also grown to rely upon Raising Heart too much. As soon as it is taken away, Yuuno who has rarely used a device comes out on top.

This is also why I believe that while Vivio's friends may have devices, their school teaches them magic without them.

arkhangelsk

2009-06-22, 06:59

Man, lively discussion! As an aside, when I wrote Post 708, I wasn't particularly thinking about devices, only that they don't seem to accidentally manifest abilities. It is just as likely that Nanoverse magic is more "artificial" and actually has to be cast through set formula rather than just manifesting using ingrained instincts.

Here's an analogy I thought up, inspired by my own experiences if you will.

2 problems with that analogy:
1) It is canon in the manga that devices (at least the high performing variety) themselves have modes that train the mage, both by providing mental sims to train the tactical (and spellcasting?) mind and by drawing power from the Core even when no magic is used to exercise it. So if anything, it is probably the deviceless mage that gets less exercise overall because he's deprived of such opportunities.
2) The mage has the option to combine device and non-device training. 9-year old Nanoha's early morning exercise, for example, is non-device, while her afternoon ones use RH. It seems hard to believe that the overall effect of a combined regime will be less than one that only has one option...

Keroko

2009-06-22, 07:08

True, devices do have training modes. All that training, however, is still relying upon the device. Nanoha's early morning training merely trains her output through her device, and her mental training still has her training with her device.

I'll admit that the analogy is not entirely correct, however the basic message I was trying to convey still applies. Those who hardly ever do their tasks without a device come to rely upon them as a crutch, and once they lose their devices their performance drops to below people who do their jobs without a device constantly.

itanshi1

2009-06-22, 07:33

Also Vivio is now as old as Nanoha was when she started magic hence the 'of age'

I'm sure school has a job with magic basics, simulators, vocab.

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-22, 12:25

But there's a big difference in how rookie-Nanoha operated RH, when compared to how Yuuno operated RH. He was under the impression that a certain amount of elaborate ritual was necessary to get the thing to work at all; whereas Nanoha's able to operate RH on an almost instinctual level. For a hell of a lot of S1, Nanoha points and RH shoots, or flies, or does something that Nanoha didn't even know was possible thirty seconds earlier. It's really obvious that RH is doing the heavy lifting when it comes to processing magic.

Why couldn't Yuuno use RH like that? I mean, there's a hell of a performance gap, right? Yuuno without a device is not even an equal to rookie-Nanoha, combat-wise.

Easiest answer is "because it was impossible". Either there's something different about him (and his people) that means that devices don't interface the same way with them that they do with humans, or there's something specific (about him) that was just incompatible with RH, and RH turned out to be 120% compatible with Nanoha instead.

If it was just a matter of Yuuno being clever and intelligent enough to do without, well, shoot, that doesn't mean that he STILL has to do without. He's got enough pull to get a device, and they're clearly helpful even for the sorts of things that he does. He never MENTIONS that he doesn't have a device, so it's not some sort of obscure pride thing. And it's unlikely to be "just happened to be incompatible" what with him never getting a device; he could have had one made specifically for him without much trouble.

We know that Yuuno does pretty good without a device; there's no point pointing that out repeatedly. But, if we work from the assumption that he could be better with a device, his not having one tends to suggest that the assumption is false - i.e. that not only does he not "need" a device, but that a device wouldn't help him at all. And that's a VERY strong argument towards Yuuno-casting-as-a-familiar.

Arkeus

2009-06-22, 13:22

True, devices do have training modes. All that training, however, is still relying upon the device. Nanoha's early morning training merely trains her output through her device, and her mental training still has her training with her device.

I'll admit that the analogy is not entirely correct, however the basic message I was trying to convey still applies. Those who hardly ever do their tasks without a device come to rely upon them as a crutch, and once they lose their devices their performance drops to below people who do their jobs without a device constantly.

And again, where do you get that? Nanoha's morning routine was clearly without devices, hence her long incantations and so on.

Also, most spells Yuuno used we have seen nanoha use without a device too, and while yuuno did use some we haven't seen nanoha use, she did use some yuuno didn't, same for vita and Fate (we haven't seen shamal without a device that much, nor signum).

Keroko

2009-06-22, 13:24

Even simpler answer: Yuuno didn't have the time to interface with Raising Heart. There was an accident, his ship went 'splody, he was seriously injured and suddenly he had to track down and capture rogue Jewel Seeds while being seriously injured.

There is no reason to assume a device wouldn't help Yuuno. Going along with the bike/scooter analogy, just because something is proven to be faster or more effective doesn't mean people want it.

And again, where do you get that? Nanoha's morning routine was clearly without devices, hence her long incantations and so on.

I was thinking manga training, which was a bit more intensive.

Also, most spells Yuuno used we have seen nanoha use without a device too, and while yuuno did use some we haven't seen nanoha use, she did use some yuuno didn't, same for vita and Fate (we haven't seen shamal without a device that much, nor signum).

Types of spells aren't really the issue here, but more their output with or without a device. For example, take their devices away and Nanoha and Fate are wing-clipped. Yuuno doesn't even need a device to fly in the first place.

AdmiralTigerclaw

2009-06-22, 14:21

Of course, it could be just a simple answer:

Yuuno didn't ask nicely.

Outlaender

2009-06-22, 14:48

A reason Yuuno didn't use RH directly? His linker core wouldn't have been able
to sustain it. In the MSLN Manga (between 1st and 2nd seasons) it get's mentioned that "everyone" (TSAB/Yuuno) was surpised that Nanoha didn't die from being bonded with RH, as as a rule, such young people weren't capable of sustaining a link with an ID, and RH was apparently more demanding than most. Nanoha did though apparently manage to support the link between her and RH, but it ended up causing a long-term problem anyway. You could say, that it may have been pretty ruthless of Yuuno to have Nanoha use RH, when he must of known it would be dangerous, but needs must when the devil drives. I lean more to "plot drive" to explain why Yuuno doesn't have/need a device, but otherwise Keroko's analogy would seem to be the simplest fit. Ie, because Nanoha started using magic with RH, doing magic without it is less effective.

Keroko

2009-06-22, 14:54

A reason Yuuno didn't use RH directly? His linker core wouldn't have been able
to sustain it. In the MSLN Manga (between 1st and 2nd seasons) it get's mentioned that "everyone" (TSAB/Yuuno) was surpised that Nanoha didn't die from being bonded with RH, as as a rule, such young people weren't capable of sustaining a link with an ID, and RH was apparently more demanding than most. Nanoha did though apparently manage to support the link between her and RH, but it ended up causing a long-term problem anyway. You could say, that it may have been pretty ruthless of Yuuno to have Nanoha use RH, when he must of known it would be dangerous, but needs must when the devil drives.

I think you're confusing things a bit. It was never said that everyone was surprised Nanoha didn't die from the bonding. What was being discussed there was Raising Heart's pressure mode (a mode which constantly absorbs magic, stamina training if you will), and what was said was merely that "A normal mage would have collapsed from from all the magic consumption."

After all, Vivid has Vivio's ten year old classmate with a device, and she's alive and kicking. You don't die from bonding with a device, it doesn't overload your core, it just... bonds you with that device. Registers you as its rightful wielder.

Xellos-_^

2009-06-22, 14:56

Keroko

2009-06-22, 14:57

Considering he had just recently dug up RH form where ever she was buried.

This is another thing that I've always wondered, where did this idea that Raising Heart is some sort of relic come from anyway? I always figured it belonged to one of his clanmates. Is there any proof Yuuno dug it up? Or that its even a relic at all?

Arkeus

2009-06-22, 15:58

I was thinking manga training, which was a bit more intensive.

But still had nanoha mainly practicing her spells without a device in the mornings.

Types of spells aren't really the issue here, but more their output with or without a device. For example, take their devices away and Nanoha and Fate are wing-clipped. Yuuno doesn't even need a device to fly in the first place.

and where do you take that, again? After all, I did say nanoha could sort of hover without a device, and that she was able to make Tia fly. I very much doubt any of the aces can't fly without their devices (we know hayate can fly without hers, btw).

Same thing about their round shields, nanoha's *was* able to defend against both a direct attack from vita and a ranged one (pincer attack); while yuuno's defence was mostly one in the air (so he didn't take full bruntof even a hit, much less two at the same time).

@ Nanoha's device draining her: it was a training regimen, nothing normal about it.

Keroko

2009-06-22, 16:11

But still had nanoha mainly practicing her spells without a device in the mornings.

She did? *double checks* Huh, she did. Good eye, I missed Raising Heart lying next to Yuuno.

and where do you take that, again? After all, I did say nanoha could sort of hover without a device, and that she was able to make Tia fly. I very much doubt any of the aces can't fly without their devices (we know hayate can fly without hers, btw).

Same thing about their round shields, nanoha's *was* able to defend against both a direct attack from vita and a ranged one (pincer attack); while yuuno's defence was mostly one in the air (so he didn't take full bruntof even a hit, much less two at the same time).

When exactly was Nanoha hovering and Hayate flying without their devices? Remember, just because Raising Heart reverts to a gem mode does not mean it stops functioning. Raising Heart has repeatedly shown to be very much able to function while being a gem. 'Without a device' means Nanoha is not carrying Raising Heart on her person.

arkhangelsk

2009-06-23, 00:19

You would notice that when Yunno wanted to use Raising Heart in its standby gem form in Ep1, he had to hold onto it. That's a point in the direction that a device doesn't keep helping its mage in standby by default - thus, you'll need to apply counterweight to support your variant that RH is providing measurable assistance even when it is in Standby. And wouldn't it completely ruin the point of retracting RH into standby in Ep8 if RH can help out quite well in its Standby Position?

As for RH and Yunno, my bet is that the problem is a simple one of RH being a bit "too much device" for Yunno - in short, a quantity problem, not a quality one.

arkhangelsk

2009-06-23, 00:47

True, devices do have training modes. All that training, however, is still relying upon the device. Nanoha's early morning training merely trains her output through her device, and her mental training still has her training with her device.

Umm, and this is supposed to compare negatively than the non-device alternative, which as far as we can see would be NO TRAINING during those periods, how?

I'll admit that the analogy is not entirely correct, however the basic message I was trying to convey still applies. Those who hardly ever do their tasks without a device come to rely upon them as a crutch, and once they lose their devices their performance drops to below people who do their jobs without a device constantly.

The problem with that analogy is that the known factors seem to actually be inverted against it.

Besides, even if your analogy is right, it still doesn't really explain why Yunno doesn't get one. Sure, using calculators may numb your mental or manual math abilities when you lose it, but not that many people are willing to give up the greater for the smaller, so they go and buy calculators.

Can a device help Yunno? Probably. He carries RH around, which would be kind of wierd if he can extract no help from it. He doesn't seem to be carrying it around just to find "its true owner" or the like. And when he has it, he uses it.

Is Yunno more familiar than human? Probably. Chrono seems to think so. He shapeshifts, and he has to make special arrangements to keep his mind in the ferret form. In fact, his actions actually slightly favor his most natural form being a ferret, at least in the time period of Nanoha and A's. Either way, if we grant that familiars might have special magic-processing circuitry (to facilitate shapeshifting, say) that reduce or eliminate the advantage a device can bring him, it is not hard to believe that Yunno applied similar measures to himself.

The idea that a top level device like RH cannot help Yunno seems observationally refuted by the canon evidence. However, it is possible that his familiar-like magic-processing enhancement might be good enough to render a more run-of-the-mill device redundant. This combination will make Yunno's decision not to have a device rational - a device he can comfortably afford won't help him, and a device that can help him is out of his comfortable reach. He evaluates how much he really needs a device that can help him, and decides not to spit up the cash.

xiaoamy

2009-06-23, 01:16

Evangelion Xgouki

2009-06-23, 11:29

What division is Nanoha and Fate in? Are they in the OSS or SS? I'm confused about their military. Since Nanoha is a captain she only leads a one squad or maybe less than a squad, so I suppose their not in a normal division.

Fate is an Enforcer and Nanoha is in the Air Force though her job is as an instructor so she doesn't really command a unit (Riot Force 6 was a special case).

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-23, 11:50

Tough to say, really.

Obviously Nanoha, Fate, and especially Hayate owe most of their rank to their power, not to conventional promotions; nobody gets jumped up to Lt Col from "nothing" in ten years without a war on or something external doing the pulling. We've noted before that rank and power in the TSAB are at least somewhat interrelated; specifically, I think the only case of a more-powerful mage reporting to a less-powerful one that we EVER see is with Genya and Ginga, and there's a huge experience gap there (plus the family tie).

So the TSAB wants power to be reflected in rank. At the same time, Hayate obviously has a hell of a lot less command experience than someone like Genya, and Fate has practically none at all, having come up through the TSAB's equivalent of JAG. So maybe RF6's weird structure reflects that, as kind of a "training command" for the commanders? The leadership's full of heavy hitters with big ranks, but they're in charge of relatively few people, so it's easier for them to settle into the roles without having to worry that they'll screw up dozens of careers that way.

At the same time, it's also been posited that RF6 isn't a "real" unit at all. The Saint Church knew that there was an impending emergency, and has the pull to affect unit assignments. So they got Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate moved to a unit where their real job was "sit around and wait for the world to need saving." But they can't come out and say that's what they're doing, so they needed an ostensible reason to exist; they came up with one that was at least tangentially related to the risk at hand. If you think about it, though, RF6 is like a specially-crafted hobby unit for the three officers. Nanoha gets to train, train, train with rookies. Fate gets an investigation to run down. Hayate gets her first taste of administrative command, dealing with a staff, the experience without which she can't continue to be promoted.

That means that Teana, Subaru, Elio, and Caro weren't there to provide combat forces; they were there to give Nanoha something to do all day, and to make Fate happy. The fact that they meaningfully contributed to the final battle is a coincidence, not something they were thinking about when they thought up RF6.

That's all speculative, of course. (And both are possible at the same time - "let's give them a taste of command that will be good for their careers" could have been an additional element in the blind, if you assume that RF6 was a mask for the real world-saving in the first place.) But it's at least a little supported by what happened afterward, where RF6 was disbanded pretty quickly. Without a specific disaster to avert, the value of keeping lots of high-ranked mages on standby is reduced. Fate went back to the investigative branch, found where she was keeping her Enforcer hat, and kept that up at least until Vivid started. Hayate... do we know exactly where she went? I got the impression that she was going on to staff work on someone else's staff for a while, which is another good "let's mature a future general some" position. Nanoha, of course, is playing Vivio's-mommy-slash-bodyguard. (And you gotta wonder how much of that is "for her own health" and how much is "isn't it good we can justify it because of her health so that it doesn't look like we're having a major-league ass-kicker riding herd on the Saint King-let"?)

LoweGear

2009-06-23, 12:50

That means that Teana, Subaru, Elio, and Caro weren't there to provide combat forces; they were there to give Nanoha something to do all day, and to make Fate happy. The fact that they meaningfully contributed to the final battle is a coincidence, not something they were thinking about when they thought up RF6.

That's an incredibly pessimistic assumption on the role of the Forwards in RF6 there. That they were meaningful in the final battle IS a result of the training they were given during the time at RF6, and due to their inherent special abilities for which they were specifically hand-picked for - they were training the Forwards to be able to handle the exact conditions they were to be faced with during the expected battles ahead. It would be a coincidence if the Forwards were simply randomly selected rookies from all over the place with a draw, and then left to rot without training; the fact that the Forwards were scouted out and selected for the abilities they were known for, and then had those abilities further nourished through their training means that their future contribution was a significant factor in the creation of RF6, and not just "something to waste time on".

Avatar_notADV

2009-06-23, 15:06

Hey, don't get me wrong; RF6 did right by its rookies.

But a big part of the reason WHY it did was that it ignored its own force structure. Put simply, any fight dangerous enough to require Nanoha is way too dangerous to also involve Subaru and Teana. (Same with Vita, to a certain extent.) Likewise, anything that needs Fate to handle is an environment that Elio just shouldn't be in. So operating with Nanoha and Vita and Subaru and Teana in -one squad- is either a tremendous waste of Nanoha's combat potential, or extremely lethal for the two forwards.

Fortunately, in the show, they DON'T operate like that. They split up regularly, so that half the squad is off fighting one threat and half of it's off fighting something else. Ordinarily this is really bad military doctrine (concentration of force is a basic tenet), but as far as anything they ran into in Strikers is concerned, Nanoha herself is an overwhelming concentration of force. ;p The forwards are a lot more likely to be operating as a squad with Tea in command than they are to be operating with Nanoha actually in contact with them.

And no, granted that they didn't pick the names for RF6 out of a hat. But on the other hand, come on - two of the four just happen to be Fate's project children. That wasn't "they went looking for rare and unusual talents", that was just normal TSAB procedure. Subaru is obvious (her cyborgness isn't affected by AMF) and Teana is the other half of that team, and frankly the one with the brains. Teana's ability to pick up things like Variable Shot is nice, but I'd wager that even without it, she'd have gotten in purely on "works well with our cyborg" grounds. And she's definitely a good candidate for officer training eventually.

But at the same time, let's not kid ourselves. The ability of RF6 to "save the world", its actual purpose (and they even said that much), did not hinge on the participation of the forwards. They helped! They contributed. But even if all four of them had lost their fights at the end, it wouldn't have affected the final outcome, just upped the good-guy body count some. And HAD they fared badly, there's at least some of a chance that they would have drawn off Vita or one of the aces from the important objectives, which might have changed the outcome radically.

Put that way, it doesn't make sense to form a small unit full of elites and then shoehorn in a bunch of rookies, if all you're looking at is the bottom line of combat effectiveness. But if you're trying to hide the fact that you've just put together a small unit full of elites, then turning it into a training command isn't a bad way to go, especially if the one person whose presence you can't easily explain otherwise happens to be a drill instructor type! ;p

itanshi1

2009-06-23, 15:12

I think you two are agreeing in different ways, I'll rephrase for your review.

They scouted unstable potentially powerful rookies that other squads might not be interested in since as you say RFS6 is uniquely designed and designated. I think calling them 'project children' does not do them justice, I feel it's more like Fate and Hayate shared notes perhaps it is as easy 'fate you can recruit some, nanoha will recruit some and I will recruit some (tho she prolly picked the chefs etc)'

DezoPenguin

2009-06-23, 20:31

And no, granted that they didn't pick the names for RF6 out of a hat. But on the other hand, come on - two of the four just happen to be Fate's project children. That wasn't "they went looking for rare and unusual talents", that was just normal TSAB procedure. Subaru is obvious (her cyborgness isn't affected by AMF) and Teana is the other half of that team, and frankly the one with the brains. Teana's ability to pick up things like Variable Shot is nice, but I'd wager that even without it, she'd have gotten in purely on "works well with our cyborg" grounds. And she's definitely a good candidate for officer training eventually.

True enough, but it's also notable that of the forwards, three out of four are potentially ridiculously overpowered. Erio is basically Fate Jr. without a psychotic mother forcing her to develop her magical potential to ridiculous levels. Subaru is a one-out-of-two-of-a-kind cybertech experiment. Caro can summon up things that can devastate whole cities. Given enough training (and since two out of the four captains are top-flight combat instructors and they're giving them a student-teacher ratio of one to two, it's no surprise that it did happen that way), all three of them are likely to develop into combat forces that can at least hold up their end in a battle that may actually need people like Nanoha and Fate. (Cinque, for example, was able to defeat kill S-ranked Zest, and Subaru OHKOed her with her IS).

Teana, of course, is along 'cause she's best pals with Subaru (which means, if you think about it, that she developed her combat and tactical abilities to their maximum potential, got several nice gold stars in her record for helping save the world, and built a network of seriously valuable contacts that helped fast-track her into the Enforcers all because the blue-haired pest glommed onto her in cadet classes and wouldn't let go).

Nanoha, of course, is playing Vivio's-mommy-slash-bodyguard. (And you gotta wonder how much of that is "for her own health" and how much is "isn't it good we can justify it because of her health so that it doesn't look like we're having a major-league ass-kicker riding herd on the Saint King-let"?)

Of course, Nanoha's actual personal career goal was "combat instructor," too (see the manga), so all the TSAB has to do is let her have that goal and Vivio gets a stay-at-home mom watching over her properly and raising her with love and affection to be a good little Midchildan citizen. Sometimes, everybody wins. :D

xiaoamy

2009-06-23, 21:34

itanshi1

2009-06-23, 21:54

Enforcer is the investigative unit, so basically NCIS

Vita is a guest instructor? Maybe I could call her a mentor or tutor.

DezoPenguin

2009-06-23, 22:21

Hmm...so Nanoha is in the air force as a combat instructor..and she teaches two recruits which are partners. is that the same as nowadays combat instuctor training two recruits, which is a pilot and a RIO (whom are partners too) They all work alone or with a wing man who are Erio and Carol, techinacally Subaru is not a pilot and Teana is not a RIO...you know what I mean
Vita? is she also in Riot Force 6, I don't recall
Enforcer? what is that?
So Riot Force 6 is just a special unit that is called for some big emergency (attacking a train with robots and super robots isn't really a big of a deal).
I'm still getting confused:upset::upset::eyespin::eyespin::heh::heh:

Let's take it from the top:

Lost Property Riot Force 6 (yeah, that's the name) is a specialized unit of the TSAB military. It was created by a political alliance of the TSAB Navy (Admiral Chrono Harlaown, backed by the Three Great Admirals--legendary figures from the creation of the TSAB) and the Belkan Saint Church (Carim Gracia, commander of the Church Knights). RF6 is commanded by Lt. Colonel Hayate Yagami. Hayate was formerly a special investigator for the Ground Forces before getting into command school. RF6's publicly stated mission is to be assigned to specific, unique cases involving Lost Logia (at the start of the series, they're investigating the Lost Logia known as Relics). Its actual mission is to be ready to save the world when the doomsday prophecy Carim received comes to pass.

In addition to an extensive support staff including the "bridge crew" (including Griffith and that one girl I never remember), device specialists (Shari and Mariel), pilots (Vice and Alto), medical (Shamal), domestic staff (Aina) and fuzzy babysitter (Zaffy!), there are eight combat personnel, divided into two units:

The Stars unit:

Unit Captain: Nanoha Takamachi. You probably know who she is. :) Nanoha is a TSAB Air Force combat instructor before being drafted into RF6. Previously she was a kick-ass field operative. Best known for making friends by blasting people into unconsciousness. Hey, it would convince me that it's better to be on her side!
Unit Vice-Captain: Vita. Like Nanoha, Vita was serving as a combat instructor.
Forwards: Subaru Nakajima(experimental cyborg who's been hero-worshipping Nanoha since Nanoha saved her life as a kid) and Teana Lanster. Subaru and Tia were cadets.

The Lightning unit:

Unit Captain: Fate T. Harlaown. Nanoha's former rival, now BFF, subject of endless and annoying shipping speculation. Her voice actress sings all the opening themes and the insert songs that mark every season's way damned cool moments. Fate was serving as an Enforcer; like itanshi said, that's basically a TSAB Naval Investigator, hunting down "dimensional criminals." Ironically, the case she was working on before getting drafted for RF6 was...to catch the mad scientist who's behind all the bad stuff. Go figure.
Unit Vice-Captain:Signum. Served in the TSAB's Air Force before RF6. Fate's friendly rival.
Forwards: Erio Mondial and Caro Lu Rushe (I'm never sure of the spelling of Caro's last name...). Erio is an artificial mage created illegally to "replace" a child who died. Caro is a summoning mage who got kicked out of her tribe because her summoned dragons were too dangerous and uncontrollable. Fate adopted them both (with the help of Fate's own adoptive mom, Lindy).