View Full Version : Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series
Welcome to Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series discussion thread.
This thread is a place where you can discuss Military and Government related questions and issues in Nanoha-verse, such as the authority within TSAB, their military system, chain of command, etc ...
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Well before we begin I'd like to say that Nanoha was right/Nanoha was wrong is getting tired. Let's try and unravel the big picture shall we? As in, how old is the TSAB? How does it work? What's the hierachy like? I'm sure things like this would have great pertinence to a Nanohaverse fanuniverse author like those who populate the FF and OC threads, myself included. Good chatting, and Safe Travels.
Nightengale
2007-06-05, 09:23
Let's see...
- Elite mages gets fast promotions. Higher ranks help.
- The 3 L.As were the foundation that shaped TSAB into what it is today. Whether or not they were the actual founders of TSAB, or did they just "modernize" a lesser faction(s) or maybe separate TSAB-ish organiztions into the gigantic dimensional administrator we know today...well, I'll leave that to the true blue moon-speakers.
- There exist a self-governed Belka region...whatever it implies. Vatican of Mid-childa? Doesn't that make Carim the Pope or something?...Cardinal Acous?
- Right-wing and left-wing politics. Typical. They're everywhere.
- Well, there's still some general confusion of ranks differentiation at times due to different military units as in the Air, Ground, Naval but the overall hierachy is generally the same as with regular militaries, like the JSDF. Though I wonder how far the 3 Admirals rank as in their Admiralship goes...Grand Admirals? Fleet Admiral?
- Balance of forces. Limiters allow leeway. They probably don't mind in general other than other forces losing their precious members due to being understaffed, but seems more like a loose regulation with appropriate measures.
- Nepotism has it's hands in TSAB politics. :rolleyes:
- Validity of mage rankings. Clearly they play a role here and there, but generally, it's more like a take-for-benefits kinda thing since it's not Zafira's officially ranked due to his familiar status, and most likely military members generally get ranked accordingly based on test results and performance too, but they can take the test if they think they're capable of it.
Mine in a flash
- TSAB age = MC Year
- TSAB was once an arm of the galactic military, now civilianzed, making the bureau look as professional as an established military of 500 years or more. Also includes the inclusion of military ranks into such an administrative office.
- 3 signs of the Bureau = still not determined.
- Belka administrative Region (BAR or VAR) = once a refugee zone given by MC...
- Midchilda is actually a fusion of 2 nearby space regions, thus arriving at a huge system of planets.
- Government if Royal-Parliamentary, borne from the two systems that once made up MC, with the real power in the hands of the Prime Minister while the designated Royal holds the third spot in government.
- Royalty and family run along matriarchal lines.
- TSAB is headed by a 11 person panel known as the board of directors- 1 of these slots is for the administrator of VAR and one is for the only military person in the entire bureau- occupied by the galactic military commander.
- More later
Nightengale
2007-06-05, 09:49
Mine in a flash
Source? Or is this your fictional intepretation?
If it's the latter...I think we should only discuss presented facts here and base the discussions and speculation on them, really.
Source? Or is this your fictional intepretation?
If it's the latter...I think we should only discuss presented facts here and base the discussions and speculation on them, really.
well a bit of speculation and fictional interpretation...
- well since a group of that importance and caliber has to come from somewhere- not just set up and expect to fully function after less than a century. It takes time to develop a tradition, and the bureau seems to have that for an organization of that nature that is that young- so it has to come from somewhere.
- given the cirumstances and what limited facts we have, it's the most ideal theories that i have right now, but i'll let you guys put in and i'll comment.
LoweGear
2007-06-05, 10:02
well a bit of speculation and fictional interpretation...
- well since a group of that importance and caliber has to come from somewhere- not just set up and expect to fully function after less than a century. It takes time to develop a tradition, and the bureau seems to have that for an organization of that nature that is that young- so it has to come from somewhere.
- given the cirumstances and what limited facts we have, it's the most ideal theories that i have right now, but i'll let you guys put in and i'll comment.
Such cases of comparatively young organizations having a rich and diverse tradition aren't unheard of... although yes, they did have to come from somewhere. The TSAB had to have evolved from a much larger organization that somehow relegated its various assignments to smaller branches.
The USAF for example, is technically less than 60 years old, and yet it's importance in the United States Armed Forces is not to be underestimated. Of course, it had existed as the US Army Air Corp prior to the end of World War II, but that doesn't change the fact that as an organization the USAF is comparatively young to the other branches.
@ LoweGear
That's exactly my view on the bureau
The USAF is one of the youngest branches of the US Mil, but it already has a 'tradition' (that aura that this branch is professional- like the army and navy- armies and navies have almost been hand in hand, and air forces came in when someone had the idea of trying to rule your enemies' sky). as the USAAC, it was just an extension of the USA during WWI- as a need to gain superiority over land and naval forces.
And the Marines would be another example of such 'young' organizations having 'the tradition'- they have been forged by war and subsequently, their need to fight in extreme situations.
LoweGear
2007-06-05, 10:19
@ LoweGear
That's exactly my view on the bureau
The USAF is one of the youngest branches of the US Mil, but it already has a 'tradition' (that aura that this branch is professional- like the army and navy- armies and navies have almost been hand in hand, and air forces came in when someone had the idea of trying to rule your enemies' sky). as the USAAC, it was just an extension of the USA during WWI- as a need to gain superiority over land and naval forces.
And the Marines would be another example of such 'young' organizations having 'the tradition'- they have been forged by war and subsequently, their need to fight in extreme situations.
I think that for the purposes of this thread, it'd be best to have a more concrete definition of that "tradition" we're talking about here = The tradition of professional duty and service stemming from the professional doctrines, disciplines, laws, rules and regulations that encompass and define the entire scope of the organization and its functions.
Hoping this'd serve as the baseline for when we refer to that "tradition" in future reference.
For a Bureau, the TSAB seems to have a much more streamlined bureaucracy than exists in the Real World. (Or maybe we just don't see the frantic paper-pushers in the background.)
One thing I've been wondering, and this may fit here and in the Magic And Technology thread: how does the TSAB keep its records? Is it stored in the Infinite Library, or somewhere else? In hardcopy? If so, is actual paper used, or synthetics?
(Anyone who's seen the clerical side of the military knows about the stupendous amount of paperwork required before a soldier is allowed to shoot even one bullet. Now imagine that for an interdimensional/interstellar bureaucracy, and imagine the number of trees required for the paper. I'm guessing synthetics.)
Also, on another note, is the Infinite Library completely under the jurisdiction of the TSAB, or only partly? Is access restricted, and what sort of information is inside (specifically, security clearances)? Or is everything in it declassified?
How far do the TSAB's powers run: are they a largely military force like the UN Peacekeeping forces, or are they also administrative (as the name suggests) like the UN itself? How closely does the TSAB parallel the UN?
One thing I've been wondering, and this may fit here and in the Magic And Technology thread: how does the TSAB keep its records? Is it stored in the Infinite Library, or somewhere else? In hardcopy? If so, is actual paper used, or synthetics?
I'd assume that the Infinite Library also acts as a records database for the bureau, complete with seperate levels of security for more classified information.
Hard copy and digital data, I'd also assume. Books as we've seen, information lists and historical records organised by a sort of pseudo-SQL management database (Yuuno's "search magic" acting like a universal search engine), as well as video data with regards to episode 9 of StrikerS.
(Anyone who's seen the clerical side of the military knows about the stupendous amount of paperwork required before a soldier is allowed to shoot even one bullet. Now imagine that for an interdimensional/interstellar bureaucracy, and imagine the number of trees required for the paper. I'm guessing synthetics.)
I dunno. Everything looks like it's done digitally via PDA pads and "floating" montor screens, with very little physical copy required unless necessary (like archiving). For an organisation that relies on quick access to the scene, having hardcopy of that scale would unnecessarily slow down any kind of action required.
Also, on another note, is the Infinite Library completely under the jurisdiction of the TSAB, or only partly? Is access restricted, and what sort of information is inside (specifically, security clearances)? Or is everything in it declassified?
TSAB-maintained. Don't forget that in A's the TSAB had asked Yuuno to act as the librarian, so I would assume that the Library itself is under TSAB management.
As for access restrictions, see first reply paragraph above.
How far do the TSAB's powers run: are they a largely military force like the UN Peacekeeping forces, or are they also administrative (as the name suggests) like the UN itself? How closely does the TSAB parallel the UN?
My view is that the TSAB is just one of many seperate organisations that deal with work of that nature. Given how short-staffed they usually are, I'd imagine that the Section 6 is in effect a small elite force trained to deal with many situations at hand, sort of like the SAS or Marines with emergency assistance, rescue and so on, while the TSAB itself is the greater collective army/navy/airforce.
Nightengale
2007-06-05, 11:25
There's one thing that generally bothers me about IL and by extention, Yuuno's general position within the TSAB.
I think it's safe to assume that Yuuno, being the database manager and chief librarian, and also a civilian-TSAB associated member has a certain degree of classified information management, among other things. At the very least, things like the theft of Jewel Seed could be revealed from Fate to Yuuno without any problems whatsoever.
It brings out the question of how much information does Yuuno actually control in general. Stuff like ancient history and stuff are naturally, probably under his complete jurisdiction, but what about more recent stuff? Or really sensitive ones? Unless Yuuno's position within TSAB is larger than what it seems, I highly doubt he's got too much leeway in certain things.
So, if IL is only the "safe" extention to the database of TSAB, bar a few things, then naturally there should be something like another sensitive database, probably under BoD's direct administration and control.
There's one thing that generally bothers me about IL and by extention, Yuuno's general position within the TSAB.
I think it's safe to assume that Yuuno, being the database manager and chief librarian, and also a civilian-TSAB associated member has a certain degree of classified information management, among other things. At the very least, things like the theft of Jewel Seed could be revealed from Fate to Yuuno without any problems whatsoever.
It brings out the question of how much information does Yuuno actually control in general. Stuff like ancient history and stuff are naturally, probably under his complete jurisdiction, but what about more recent stuff? Or really sensitive ones? Unless Yuuno's position within TSAB is larger than what it seems, I highly doubt he's got too much leeway in certain things.
So, if IL is only the "safe" extention to the database of TSAB, bar a few things, then naturally there should be something like another sensitive database, probably under BoD's direct administration and control.
Well no, this of it this way. The Infinite Library is a vast computer database/OS for information management, and Yuuno is the search engine. While he technically has access to every file in the database, without the required security clearance and access (passwords etc) he cannot view those files. Don't forget that the Infinite Library has records of everything, everywhere, including classified and top-secret information (the origins of the Aces, Book of Darkness records etc). I'd say that any information that goes in there is first locked with the required security access codes and clearance levels before it actually goes into the database.
Nightengale
2007-06-05, 11:48
So, he controls and manages the information superhighway, but doesn't neccesarily has access to the "very sensitive" ones? Makes a lot of sense.
Thanks.
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-05, 12:04
We can conclude a few things from observation of the TSAB and by comparing and contrasting them with what we know about various militaries.
First off, the TSAB is -emphatically- not a war-fighting military. That's not to say they never have, but if they have, it's far enough back that the NCOs and officers are from a new crop. When you look at things like the restrictions, limiting the available firepower to "prevent unit rivalry" and all that, well... those are not the sorts of concerns that affect a force going into the field for large-scale combat. (Indeed, real militaries specifically promote some healthy rivalry.)
TSAB in the field - that is to say, operating outside their domestic Midchildan territory - seems to look like the British Navy during the imperial period. Ships have a lot of autonomy, their captains are expected to uphold imperial policy and take initiative when out of communications range, and a little bit of irregularity is generally allowed so long as the results turned out to be good. They'll deploy forces to defend Midchildan interests, and protection of the locals is also a goal, though secondary - Lindy was about five minutes from turning Tokyo into a big-ass bay at the end of A's, for example.
TSAB at home looks and acts like the Japanese military. Not surprising, given the writers' cultural bias. Lots of training, disaster relief, assistance in law-enforcement tasks, not a whole lot of the boom boom.
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-05, 12:35
Continuing on. ;p
We can -assume- that fighting is not the only goal for the TSAB's existence. (Were it so, why the HELL would they have banned conventional, non-magical weaponry?) One of its major aims is (almost certainly) to provide training, support, and direction to mages, who are after all a certain percentage of the Mid population in general. Mages are dangerous, they can hurt and kill people, they can break the law in all sorts of interesting ways, they can go set up pocket empires in "unadministrated" space, they can fly drunk... all that jazz. But a mage in the TSAB is a lot less likely to kill herself or others by accident, and much, much less likely to turn their powers to anti-social uses.
We can assume that an effort to "control" magic the way that some countries here control guns would fail outright. Nanoha plus a totally-unregistered device that Yuuno just happened to be carrying equals really powerful force of destruction, no? Furthermore, there seem to be a lot of Lost Logia-type artifacts floating around - even if most of them aren't all that dangerous, they keep turning up often enough that you'd have a steady stream of them to deal with anyway.
So why would a young mage want to join the TSAB?
- Respect. The TSAB's a real military in terms of ceremonials. You get a nice uniform, you get saluted, you're part of a team of people like you, the normal self-actualization stuff from the military.
- "Be all you can be." The TSA's a good source of training, they're actively interested in developing the potential of their mages, they're gonna provide you with a device and cartridges and all that. They'll teach you to fly, LITERALLY.
- Other options. Which is to say, -are- there any? We don't actually know how much of a role magic plays in the Mid civilian sector. We can safely assume that the medical folks use a lot. We know about Yuuno, but also that he's a little unusual. We know that there's a research establishment. And... what else? We -don't- know that it's used in everyday tasks like construction or manufacturing. Or even in sports. (Hell, do they have sports?)
If we assume that the TSAB also has "mage control" as one of their missions, this would account for things like limiters and not liking the idea of sticking too many powerful mages in one unit. Coup problems, possibly? They'd have a terrible time if Div 6 went rogue as constituted, and that's just a few girls and some support staff. If you loaded up a special air force unit with lots of AA and AAA mages, they would have a good chance of taking control and holding it long enough to push a coup through...
It's obvious that mage rank and military rank are not unrelated. Every high-ranking mage we know is an officer. (We can conclude that the usual difference between commissioned officers and enlisted personnel is simply not present in the TSA, or is not understood by the writers; certainly there's nothing to imply that ALL of the characters from A's have had, say, leadership training at an academy. OTOH, they could just be mustangs...)
It's also obvious that there are problems with the TSA's rank structure when applied to Our Heroes. Hayate's a Lt. Colonel at 19, for Christ's sake! In a conventional military, that's a slot for a veteran leader, at least in their late 30s or more likely late 40s. Granted that Hayate has a freakishly unusual amount of magical power, but assuming she stays healthy, she's almost certain to end up as one of the most senior officers in the TSAB. (On the other hand, it's entirely possible that her promotion had an extremely large amount of "by way of courtesy" - that is, she's a Lt. Col. because she wanted the job, they wanted to give her the job, and it was a Lt. Col. slot. Also, if they end up promoting Nanoha or Fate to Major, then Hayate would need to be a Lt. Col. for story reasons so she could keep out-ranking them... but that's still pretty stupid.)
So what's with the rank inflation? Well, for one, we've -never- seen an example of a mage being placed under the command of another mage with inferior abilities. It's entirely possible that mage rank is explicitly tied to military rank, and that passing a ranking test actually DOES get you "promoted". But then you're desperately short on officers, because after all, how many AAA-mages are in the service? Presumably not too many, if they're recruiting 9-year-old girls with that kind of potential and putting them straight into the line! ;P So at least theoretically, there are a number of officers who aren't super-skilled mages, simply to keep the table of organization filled.
Also, what about the enlisted personnel? Our B-rankers are all privates. The only other ones we know about are Rein (special case, but AA, right?) and Vice (who knows?), both at Master Sergeant.
Well before we begin I'd like to say that Nanoha was right/Nanoha was wrong is getting tired. Let's try and unravel the big picture shall we? As in, how old is the TSAB? How does it work? What's the hierachy like? I'm sure things like this would have great pertinence to a Nanohaverse fanuniverse author like those who populate the FF and OC threads, myself included. Good chatting, and Safe Travels.
But a round up of some issues wouldn't hurt. :D
100
Pre-Mock~Battle-Development
Act 7 - Hotel Mission.Intel For Nanoha-Fate-Force: The hotel will have an auction, due to the delicate nature of items exchanged and convenience of dealing in lost-logia, smuggling operation are suspected.
Objective 1 is to secure the hotel and protect the hotels guests. - DONEObjective 2 is to investigate any dubious activities. - FAILED
Battle Formation
Captains are guarding the inside of the building. (Flag Zone)
Shamal is keeping watch on the roof.
Rookies are guarding the perimeter close to the building. (Red Zone)
What's left of the knights are (presumably) patrolling the surrounding area. (Blue Zone)
To be presumed from episode progress to be a wide span.
Battle Synopsis
Shamal detects the incoming drones.
Blue Zone Knights dispatch them.
The doctor contacts Unknown force.
Dr-Force is now under their control.
Drones go into fly-by-wire mode. (hard even for knights)
Large force is teleported in Red's perimeter. (detected by Caro)
Some others slip through Vita's attack.
Most drones now converge on Red perimeter, seamlessly ignoring/dodging Blue's Knights.
Red perimeter is under heavy assault. Vita is expected as reinforcements.
(long wait presumed by Tea - short wait in truth)
Decision to counter force by force - tactics switch from defencive to attack.
Defensive tactics is presumably training tactics.
Maneuver Saburu (decoy) x Cross-Fire (trump-card) is decided upon.
Drones destroyed (but a stray shot flies almost seriously injuring Subaru)
The shot is among the last fired, to be presumed Subaru was distracted by currently trashed drones.
Shot stopped by Vita, Tea sent to guard the rear. (+1 Vita Scolding)
Before or after some of the events above, using the cover of chaos, the smuggled goods are stolen from the hotel.
Battle Analysis
Blue -- Knights positioned in Blue zone are too far front. They're objective couldn't have been anything but scouting from a military perspective, which considering they're numbers is ridiculous. They fail to stop the assault and to fall back to the Red zone to provide support.
But this is more a planing error. They should have falln back to a closer-to-rookies perimeter in the first place, it would also have been easier to defend and reinforce. The only real failure were how they allowed some drones in their immediate vicinity to get away.
Red -- Faced with almost overwhelming force the mission can only be described as a success. The force was destroyed before Vita reinforced them. There was only one operational accident, attributed to Tea.
Flag Team -- Failed to assist the Red team in a dire situation, failed to detect smuggling when the situation clearly hinted there was something in the hotel. Failed to stop the stealing of smuggled goods, failure to offer battle coordination and control when it was clearly needed.
From scenes at the ending of the battle we can deduce: failed to get battle ready, failed to disperse and or search the area in any way. Simply put, they TOTALY FAILED in all respects.
Act 8 - Dual-Training.
Analysis
Taking note to past mistakes and her own worth Tea is trying to improve both her abilities and the range of her abilities, in this respect training with Subaru for better team-work and coordination. Presumably it goes well ~
Normal training goes as usual, presumably the rookies are thought how to improve their current abilities and how to perform in a generic formation. Hence each is taught and trained individually and not working with the others. Understandably this, while not forming good-team work between them allows them to progress at their own pace. This does not appear as military standard, also we can presume it's Nanoha's decision. The cons to this range from things like Not teaching them how to surpass each others limitation to Not forming a good bond of trust and understanding of abilities. (the former is bad for planing)
The rookies are presumably only monitored during training as such they're free of anything the rest of the time ~ while still being on call 24/7.
~ ~ ~
Mock~Battle
What was expected. -- The trainees were to fight with one of the Commanders, but its more target practice for their training (as in the training given to them by Nanoha & Co) There was no defeat or injure Captain to win ~ they merely were suppose to clash with her.
Analysis
The night before the battle commences Tea & (Subaru convinced by Tea) decide to use their own personal training rather then Nanoha's in the battle. The intention was most likely to impress Nanoha, Subaru's motives are questionable, but Teanna's were most likely to force the training to to new levels. (note - mission accomplished, in a sense)
During the mock-battle they do exactly this.
Nanoha is not pleasantly surprised, and it would appear the observers (Fate and Co) neither.
The strategy employed by Subaru & Teanna can be considered successful, but it is has not directly given them the results they wished for. More-over Nanoha is disappointed.
Tactic Analysis - The tactic basically focuses on utilising as much of their strengths as much as possible. There is only one flaw, and that is the decisive blow. It is so romantic that it's silly, if only Teanna would use the decoy to secure a clear shot to Nanoha's back it would have been perfect. Or preferably to avoid friendly fire, firing from Subaru's left (semi-blank spot for Nanoha) form lower ground to Nanoha, this would have been ideal for a regroup as well.
But one mistake is one two many, as it's enough to get you killed, so Nanoha's accusation of recklessness are justified.
Nanoha
Failed to stop the situation. (I mean it as in, say: "Stand down Teanna.")
Enforce military protocol.
Stop the situation properly.
Call forth ranks/Give the recruit a reminder of protocol.
Failed to take precautions for the use of weaponry in the exercise.
Tea
Failed to recognise military protocol
Endangered her commanding officer, her partner and herself in a training operation.
Failed to stand down.
Failed to follow the proceedings of the training exercise.
Is guilty of mutiny. Although since Nanoha never gave the order to stand down she is not guilty because for pointing her guns at her ~ but because of her actions outside the training course.
As it stands they are both failures, and should be both dropped out of the military core. But disregarding military standards to the point of Nanoha's imposed level ~ Tea is clearly the one to blame for the Mock~Battle incident.
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-05, 12:57
Okay, force structure of the TSAB.
We know (from the manga) that "everybody" starts off in the Ground Forces. This is not actually true - certainly, Nanoha and Fate didn't start there - but we can assume that it's the normal point of entry for an enlistee.
So what do we know about them? What we've seen isn't all that impressive. Whatever unit size they're constituted as (I've seen battalions in the fansub, but I don't trust it to be accurate for things like that), they don't actually have all that much magical potential - Nakajima's unit was seriously augmented by Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate swinging by while on vacation.
This makes sense if you take into account that mages who reach A rank (often? always?) move into the Air Forces. So we would expect the Ground Forces to include a lot of trainees and low-potential mages. They're not that mobile. We can assume they have access to mechanized transport and possibly air transport, but we haven't actually seen anything like an APC. They're not the mages that get deployed to extra-dimensional work, anyway...
So your average officer in the Ground Forces can be assumed to have been promoted because of seniority, not pure potential; or else they're just an odd duck who refused transfer into the Air Forces.
The Air Forces are... well, we don't really know. About all that we know about these guys is that they can fly, and that they aren't fast-responders - they relieved Nakajima at the airport disaster only after Hayate and friends had essentially taken care of everything. We can presume that they're generally better-equipped and more powerful fighting formations than the Ground Forces. We can also assume they're not as numerous (just not that many mages at that rank), and that their command structure is a bit ponderous - if they were really quick on the draw, Hayate wouldn't have been impelled to set up her little Delta Force on the side. ;p
Finally, we have the enforcers. These guys are an odd little category - they seem to be the folks who get deployed externally, kind of like Marines in a way, but with more of an emphasis on individual action than anything you'd find in a modern military unit. There's a wide range of abilities here - you get crowds of them finished off by Precia and they don't even slow down the knights in A's, but on the other hand, Chrono and Fate are both enforcers, so presumably it's not totally unknown for them to have access to a few big guns. Can't say much more about 'em...
So yeah, Hayate's Div 6 is definitely filling the niche of a special-forces unit. We can assume that, because they're so -bad- at the whole training aspect, that there aren't actually any other special forces units in the TSAB hierarchy.
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-05, 13:25
Japanese military, Cats, remember? "you just screwed up bad, trainee, I'm gonna hit you" is not frowned upon. Even the Signum Punch is within normal discipline.
We have to place Div 6's performance in light of the context - that is to say, in a 26-episode anime series. ;p Thus, having the opponents show up and do something, succeed (to show that they're not total incompetents, and thus dangerous enemies), and get away (so that we don't have a 13-ep series!) is totally understandable.
Given the rather huge deficiencies in intelligence that they're suffering under (total lack of knowledge about enemy intentions, force estimates, capabilities other than "yeah, okay, we've seen three types of drone", whereas same enemy can keep them under observation during action...), it's hardly a surprise that they're not acting in an optimal fashion anyway.
As far as the hotel, an actual military action would have been "clear the hotel, call in reinforcements". With the restriction of not suspending the auction or alerting civilians to incoming trouble, they did okay - they got diverted by the diversion because, well, what have they been DOING but fighting drones? Good thinking on behalf of the opposition, plus absolutely superior intelligence, and a very limited objective that was -not- what Div 6 was there to prevent, allowed a success there.
As far as the training problems go, absolutely, the objectives of the training exercises should have been stated up front. If it's necessary to take it slow and break in the trainees to prevent them from suffering physical harm, you -freaking tell them that-. Hell, Nanoha even has this nifty anecdote about how, despite her Ace of Aces and S+ and aura of absolute awesomeness, pushing it too hard almost killed HER, and hey won't you -look- at the scar! This, I think, is a failure caused by narrative demands, which is still kind of weak on behalf of the writers, but understandable - they can't "surprise" the viewer with the whole "Nanoha got shot up" thing if they explain it in advance. But still, poor form.
Tea's whole freaking out... well, I'll say going in that Tea's baggage is her own damn problem. But with modern special forces training, that shouldn't be any sort of problem whatsoever; NOBODY who gets selected for SEAL training thinks that they're average, it's part of the mentality you're instilling into the trainees. Nanoha, well, she doesn't know that, and she ought to - she's certainly presented as someone who's done her goddamned homework when it comes to training, and even if the TSA's totally ignorant on how to do this stuff, she happens to be "really good friends" with the world's greatest expert on the most comprehensive archives in existence. Presumably Yuuno could have dug up some US Army special forces training manuals, or someone else's equivalents; even if he didn't do so on his own accord as an excuse to drop in on Nanoha... ;p
But Nanoha obviously hasn't read anything on the topic, so either she's haring off in a completely different direction out of sheer pig-headedness, or we've run into a limitation of information the writers didn't have. I vote (b) here. They can't make Nanoha know something they don't know themselves, and let's be honest, the ins and outs of military training in a special forces unit are not a topic of general interest or something you'd find a lot of Japanese literature addressing!
However, the resolution was pure Nanoha - "you're not listening to me, so I shall pwn you until you shut up and listen for a second!" And it worked, again. ;p (I personally would have been happier with a discussion with everyone there, if only so Tea could say "wait, wait, who in here has been in a fight with Nanoha?!" and seen the hands go up...)
Meophist
2007-06-05, 15:27
We know (from the manga) that "everybody" starts off in the Ground Forces. This is not actually true - certainly, Nanoha and Fate didn't start there - but we can assume that it's the normal point of entry for an enlistee.Actually, this is not true. I believe Teana tried to go for Officer training first, then Air Forces.
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-05, 16:12
Hey, I'm just quoting Elio and his little-boy understanding of the military that we see a few years ago, from the manga. (Basically "the Ground Forces are where you start, and they're part of the team too even if you're better than they are" mantra.) And since Subaru definitely started off with the ground-pounders, and Tea and Subaru were partnered all through training, right up until Nanoha shanghaied them... Of course, once they finished their grunt training, had they not signed up with Div 6, they may have indeed gone their separate ways immediately.
Officer training is academy-type work in the real world. We don't know how much theoretical work trainees get as a matter of course - I mean, obviously they need a lot more math than the average grunt, given the relationship between math and Mid magic - but there's no telling whether that extends to battle formations or logistics and supply or leadership.
Actually, if I might digress for a moment, it's entirely possible that a lot of 20th century military concepts might not function properly in the context of the Mid armed forces. I mean, what's a battle line to forces that can insert from space and freakin' -teleport-? Certainly the ground forces composition makes more sense if you think of them as ground-holders rather than a mobile unit... "Hold this facility no matter what" types. Rather more horrifyingly, if you can sneak a 10-year-old girl into the enemy's rear area and then she whips out a device and does her best Nanoha impression, that's gonna be -hell- on the idea of limiting civilian casualties in a conflict...
Of course, we don't know that there IS a conflict per se. Does Mid have any unfriendly neighbors? What are the "borders" of an inter-dimensional empire, anyway? It's entirely possible that they've just never run into the kind of organized resistance that has made them use military magic on a total-war scale. We can assume that they don't do so regularly, or lately, given a few clues (you don't act like the JSDF if you get shot at a lot), but the history's a blank so far.
The Imperial Forces of Star Wars might be a good reference point for comparison.
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-06, 03:39
I disagree. The Imperials have a completely opposite personnel issue - they have a bunch of cloned stormtroopers who are essentially disposable, and the valuable stuff is the equipment. TSAB can't treat its troops like that, because they're NOT something they can just pull out of a vat - Nanoha and friends represent priceless, irreplaceable assets (and, potentially, hideously dangerous opposition forces!)
Of course, in StrikerS, we have a plot where they seem to be pulling mages out of vats. I've already expressed an opinion that this might be reflective of TSAB involvement, which would lead to truly delicious drama. But this isn't the thread to speculate on that...
I disagree. The Imperials have a completely opposite personnel issue - they have a bunch of cloned stormtroopers who are essentially disposable, and the valuable stuff is the equipment. TSAB can't treat its troops like that, because they're NOT something they can just pull out of a vat - Nanoha and friends represent priceless, irreplaceable assets (and, potentially, hideously dangerous opposition forces!)
Stormtroopers aren't clones, they're human recources recruited.... well, drafted from normal planets. Palpatine banned cloning after the clone wars ended.
Of course, this doesn't dispute your disposabillity argument as they drafted human males from every planet under their juristiction without much limits.
No they are mostly a clone army.
That's why they all sound the same. //end-off-topiclessJapanese military, Cats, remember? "you just screwed up bad, trainee, I'm gonna hit you" is not frowned upon. Even the Signum Punch is within normal discipline.So ~ this was never portrayed as japanese military. Not like I know anything about it, but I do imagine Nano-Military is more in between the middle ground of mass-recruits & special forces.
Judging from those mages in episode one, the training seems to be ~ umm.. the make-you-rough, but can't afford you to quit. :) If it was more japanese-military (or any other normal one) I would expect them to salute and code-speak at every *bip* out of Hayate's mouth ~ :heh: And yet they are so casual.
It's more like the Nano-Military is trained more as an police force then anything.
The general discipline and combat tactics support this ~ :p
- - - -
Signum, Vita & Co should be the only ones with the l33tish training.
No they are mostly a clone army.
That's why they all sound the same. //end-off-topicless
Gur... this is one of the reasons why I hate Attack of the Clones...
Anyway, take it from a heavy Star Wars fan like me that stormtroopers are not clones. I can dig up mountains of proof if you like.
Anyway, the comparison with the SW Imperial Millitary is not a bad thing, as they seem to mix up naval and ground force ranks as well.
No they are mostly a clone army.
That's why they all sound the same. //end-off-topiclessSo ~ this was never portrayed as japanese military. Not like I know anything about it, but I do imagine Nano-Military is more in between the middle ground of mass-recruits & special forces.
Judging from those mages in episode one, the training seems to be ~ umm.. the make-you-rough, but can't afford you to quit. :) If it was more japanese-military (or any other normal one) I would expect them to salute and code-speak at every *bip* out of Hayate's mouth ~ :heh: And yet they are so casual.
It's more like the Nano-Military is trained more as an police force then anything.
The general discipline and combat tactics support this ~ :p
- - - -
Signum, Vita & Co should be the only ones with the l33tish training.
I have had a LTC as an immediate superior before (I was serving as a Clerk at that time), and the office environment was rather casual. Fresh out of basic training at that time, I was basically like a fish out of the water (since prior to my first actual assignment, the highest rank I ever got to personally interact with was a Lieutenant).
Saluting him with "God-stricken" fear while reporting to him in the office on the first day, he basically went, "Ah, forget all that crap." and more or less told me to be more relaxed. :heh:
Not all army camps here are like that, of course. I was rather fortunate in that it was not a combat/training camp, but an administrative camp, and a HQ at that, so the concentration of LTCs was "unusually" high.
The rationale of my "Boss" was that it was just a waste of time for men to salute their superiors in the office everyday, and a waste of his time to salute back as well. :heh: I still address him as "Sir" of course, since there is still a need to establish and reinforce military discipline.
When I transferred to other vocations, it was more or less the same. The relationship between the men and their immediate superiors is always more "relaxed" than between men and "external" superiors. Makes sense really.
Add to the fact that Hayate is 19 years old, and her "laid-back" behaviour is not really that far-fetched. Realistic even. What will really determine Hayate's competence though, are her reactions to "bad events".
The only thing that bugs me about Hayate is her rank. :heh: In the real world, most people would be lucky to be a Captain at 19, let alone a LTC. :heh: Ah well, this is the TSAB, and Hayate did say that her Ancient Belken skills were factors in her insanely fast promotions.
Hayate was a Captain at age 15... so she basically went on to Major, then LTC in four years. Man, I hope she saved a lot of orphans during those years. :p At this rate, she will achieve General at a younger age than Chrono achieved Admiral. :heh:
Cheers.
dodgethis_sg
2007-06-06, 09:06
In Singapore Armed Forces speak, Subaru and Tia were performing unsafe and unauthorised manuvers during a routine training session and Nanoha called a safety time for a cease of training. Subaru was made to sit by the side and reflect on her action while Nanoha proceeded to tekan (slang for punish with intense physical training) Tia with her own medicine.
I would like to see a report on that...
AND SALUTING A NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICER WOULD GET YOU EXTRA DUTIES. Get that right, n00bs.
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-06, 10:18
Well, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. There's certain ways that Div 6 is like it is because of the characters involved - simply put, you can't make Nanoha or Fate or Hayate into a martinet without destroying their characters. Vita is a bit more picky on things like that, so they have her ask Nanoha "wait, what about all that crap?" and Nanoha comes back with the "if they have time to salute, I'm not working them hard enough" answer. VERY like Nanoha. ;p
But in other ways, it's set up like the Japanese military because, well, that's what the writers know. Disaster relief and law enforcement, not "eternally vigilant against an enemy", all that jazz. It -should- be like a special forces unit (and the relaxed discipline is a lot like that too), and it is in ways that the writers need it to be in order for their plot to work, but it's not consistently like it in ways that it would be if the writers were familiar with special forces training (and worried about keeping that consistent, which they probably aren't. ;p)
The -good- thing about Hayate's rank, weird as it is, is that if we assume that it's largely related to her mage rank, we can assume that it's hit a plateau; it's not unreasonable that Hayate would get better from when SHE was a captain, but it's unlikely that her power's going to continue going up and up and up, especially now that she's more or less a staff puke these days. ;p With her spending her days doing the paperwork, the political maneuvering, and not making things go boom interestingly, we can assume that SS is as high as she's going to go for quite a while (!) and that they're going to leave her at that rank for ages'n'ages.
Or, assuming that she isn't in Div 6 forever, she might get transferred to another arm where rank isn't a big deal - the enforcers seem to be a little less military in that respect. On the other hand, there's still going to be the question of how much they can trust Hayate, with her squad of Velkan buddies; they can't just slap a limiter on her if she'd be operating independently...
Hayate having that limiter on her is interesting. It's not just "okay, we don't like people being over AAA" - they rank her all the way down to A, which puts her in the "able to fly" range but not any better than, say, the crowds of enforcers who get wiped in seasons 1 and 2. Subtle message by the high command that she shouldn't be leading from the front? Plot device to keep Nanoha up on the screen more? Your call. ;p
I'm not sure how to phrase this question, but...
I'm just wondering why all the privates have what appear to be pretty much the same kind of device. Is it that most of them prefer the standard? Or do you not get a custom device until a certain rank? And if so, that rank must be pretty low, seeing as how Tea and Subaru had custom ones.
Meophist
2007-06-07, 12:26
I'm not sure how to phrase this question, but...
I'm just wondering why all the privates have what appear to be pretty much the same kind of device. Is it that most of them prefer the standard? Or do you not get a custom device until a certain rank? And if so, that rank must be pretty low, seeing as how Tea and Subaru had custom ones.
Custom devices are likely to be simply uncommon. Subaru inherited hers and Teana built one herself because she wanted to use a cartridge system. I believe the standard devices they could've used were simple staffs and spears. I believe it was said in the manga that Subaru and Teana were the only ones of their training group to use custom devices.
LoweGear
2007-06-07, 12:30
I'm not sure how to phrase this question, but...
I'm just wondering why all the privates have what appear to be pretty much the same kind of device. Is it that most of them prefer the standard? Or do you not get a custom device until a certain rank? And if so, that rank must be pretty low, seeing as how Tea and Subaru had custom ones.
I'm assuming it's standardization, like for most militaries. However, the TSAB seems more lax in the acceptance of custom devices. I'm assuming this is because MOST people don't know how to make their own devices, or simply don't care, and as such the TSAB provides standard issue staves (or for Belka users, spears). for most of the trainees, but lets custom device users train with their own designs, as is the case with Subaru and Teana. Also, the training given to Subaru and Teana in A's to StrikerS indicates that in some sense, custom device users are given slightly modified regiments to better augment their magic style. Afterall, why waste a person's aptitude in a certain specialty by diluting them into generalists?
It was also in the anime.
In short Tea and Suba-chan are very weird ~ as far as standards go.
Tea's monologue in 6 I think, where she analyses the team and portrays them as l33ts is very deceiving.
I think she's being very ~ umm professional ~ in it, to put it bluntly. :uhoh:
If she was as she described herself ~ normal ~ she would probably go: "Oh SHI-" at every movement Nano & Fate made. :D
100Edit
~ Lowe
I think the reasoning is that they are not weapons ~ well sorta ~ and more amplifiers for the cadets ability.
In other words the cadets are the weapons themselves whatever else they want to use is legit.
There's probably some family influence in this respect ~ :D
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-07, 12:50
Good question. Evidence suggests that it's not a fixed rank or anything - Chrono, who ranked higher than Nanoha or Fate in S1 and S2, was still using the standard-issue S2U storage device. Tea and Subaru and Elio had custom devices going into training. Probably, it's a personal-choice thing - you get a standard-issue device unless you have one already, in which case it's okay to keep using it. (Dunno about Caro, but she wasn't in training before Div 6, so maybe she didn't have a device at all?)
Caro's device looks standard ~ well I can't imagine much variation on it. Most likely they thought making her device look different would look umm ~ forced, like Nano-Squad was some kind of super here league ~ bah xP ( her device is enhanced however )
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-07, 17:01
Actually, if we're talking about appearances, it looks just like what Lutecia's using. Probably not a coincidence, given that we know about precisely two summoners and that they both have that kind of setup...
Random question:
What exactly is Saint Church a church of? What faith do they have?
I'm wondering if there's some extra information in a fanbook or something.
Random question:
What exactly is Saint Church a church of? What faith do they have?
I'm wondering if there's some extra information in a fanbook or something.
Why does the Saint Church remind me of a monastery?
They are probably religious brotherhood kind of organization with the knight as their offense power (in the past).Similar to medieval Britain(with their lords and such)
I wonder whether all velkan also has the same belief in the past.
Nightengale
2007-06-08, 19:31
I dunno...They're self-governed, they don't seem all that large, but they have their share of influence and power.
I'm thinking it's like the Vatican.
Why does the Saint Church remind me of a monastery?
They are probably religious brotherhood kind of organization with the knight as their offense power (in the past).Similar to medieval Britain(with their lords and such)
I wonder whether all velkan also has the same belief in the past.
I dunno...They're self-governed, they don't seem all that large, but they have their share of influence and power.
I'm thinking it's like the Vatican.
Interesting. The Nanoha-DGz sub calls the place Hayate goes to meet Carim in episode 4 the "Belka-Governed Cathedral of the St. Monarch Church".
I'm wondering what the Church actually believes in, as in the root of their faith. If they're religious, then there has to be a religion, and very probably a sort of holy book (ie a Bible).
Interesting. The Nanoha-DGz sub calls the place Hayate goes to meet Carim in episode 4 the "Belka-Governed Cathedral of the St. Monarch Church".
I'm wondering what the Church actually believes in, as in the root of their faith. If they're religious, then there has to be a religion, and very probably a sort of holy book (ie a Bible).
Given their type of fighting style and the "flashbacks" of Signum's crew in the Sound Stages, their religion is somewhat like the Middle Ages when the Crusades were happening.
"Our God, or DEATH!"
"Destroy the infidels!"
"Burn the heretics!"
Of course, now that it is the modern age, their religion has most probably mellowed. Unless Carim is more of a fundamentalist than she lets on. :heh:
Natch.
Anh_Minh
2007-06-09, 04:24
"Cosplay or die, heathen!"
Given their type of fighting style and the "flashbacks" of Signum's crew in the Sound Stages, their religion is somewhat like the Middle Ages when the Crusades were happening.
"Our God, or DEATH!"
"Destroy the infidels!"
"Burn the heretics!"
Of course, now that it is the modern age, their religion has most probably mellowed. Unless Carim is more of a fundamentalist than she lets on. :heh:
Natch.
You should see the OC thread, the Velkan Holy Church has someohow been turned into the Adaptus Astartes, golden throne and all. :heh:
Anyway, they could be worshipping an ideology instead of a being, too.
Xellos-_^
2007-06-11, 11:48
The only thing that bugs me about Hayate is her rank. :heh: In the real world, most people would be lucky to be a Captain at 19, let alone a LTC. :heh: Ah well, this is the TSAB, and Hayate did say that her Ancient Belken skills were factors in her insanely fast promotions.
Hayate was a Captain at age 15... so she basically went on to Major, then LTC in four years. Man, I hope she saved a lot of orphans during those years. :p At this rate, she will achieve General at a younger age than Chrono achieved Admiral. :heh:
Cheers.
In our real world, our first world military aren't recuriting 9yrs old either. hese have about 10 years worth or service time plus their careers are probably also on the fast track due thier skill and power. Chrono is a admiral and he is in his early 20s.
Random question:
What exactly is Saint Church a church of? What faith do they have?
I'm wondering if there's some extra information in a fanbook or something.
The Saint Church of Haruhi.
Their goal is to find Espers, Time Travelers, Aliens and Sliders. Which mesh quite well with the TSBA.
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-11, 15:34
In our real world, our first world military aren't recuriting 9yrs old either. hese have about 10 years worth or service time plus their careers are probably also on the fast track due thier skill and power. Chrono is a admiral and he is in his early 20s.
But that's what we're saying - 10 years of service isn't enough to hit Lt. Colonel.
First, keep in mind that Hayate started off from nothing but a big ball of potential. She wasn't a combat veteran. She didn't even have a device. She couldn't be trusted to command her knights directly, given what had just happened. She'd cast a grand total of what, ONE spell in a combat situation. And, not to be rude, she was actually crippled at the time, even though it got better.
You get your commission as a 2nd Lt., then promotions go up 1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Colonel. Even if we admit Hayate directly to the service from the point her legs start working again, that means she's been promoted four times within nine years, which is -way- more than the average officer promotion rate in a real-world military, outside an airforce actually at war...
You can get a promotion as a reward for an act of heroism, certainly. But typically, the understanding is that you'll spend a longer time than usual at the next rank, because the military doesn't like having officers that are way younger (or older) than the norm for that rank. You don't generally want officers with less experience giving orders to officers of greater experience. (Of course, it's different between NCOs and officers, but that's part of the game.)
On top of that, once you're above Captain, it's not really a combat position - your administrative skills are almost as important as your leadership skills at that level. We'll grant Hayate a superior ability to organize, but is it so superior that her superiors were able to recognize it in a -young girl-? Enough to get them to approve her promotion? Especially knowing that, at this point, further staff promotions are inevitable - even if she's the worst Lt. Colonel in the service, she'll have the seniority to hit full bird before 30 and general before -40-?
I don't buy it. For me, that's enough evidence that the TSAB puts a heavy thumb on the scales for high ranking mages - that Hayate isn't a Lt. Colonel because she's a superior military administrator or combat leader, but because she's got that SS after her name.
Oddly, Nanoha and Fate are much more believable as Captains. For one thing, we know they were somewhat veteran before entering the service at all, y'know, from the first two seasons and all. ;p We know that Nanoha has gotten up to enough exploits to have picked up a nifty-keen nickname. And Captain is only two promotions up from where they would have entered at, assuming the TSAB was willing to admit them straight into the officer corps (reasonable, though again, it's purely deference to their abilities.) You can make captain by 30 if you start at 20 and work hard (and are lucky and see action, and Nanoha has all of that). So, starting at 10, okay, captain by 20 isn't toooooo much of a stretch.
Of course, all of this assumes a correlation with a Western-style system of commissioned military officers. If the TSAB starts its officers off at a different rank, results can vary widely. But keep in mind that the trainees that Nanoha and friends have on hand are all -privates-, so unless they're shortly to be promoted big-time, that makes the situation even worse.
Well, historically rapid promotions in the junior officer and enlisted ranks did occur in a variety of situations, such as the Napoleonic wars and the American Civil War, hell if the French could make a 19 year old girl a military leader anything can happen. :heh:
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-11, 18:29
Right, but that's -wartime- promotions. We can safely assume that nobody's killing off TSAB forces in job lots these days, else we'd probably have heard something about it (and, to put it bluntly, they wouldn't have been training all these episodes were that the case! ;p)
The Saint Church of Haruhi.
Their goal is to find Espers, Time Travelers, Aliens and Sliders. Which mesh quite well with the TSBA.That seemed quoted straight out of the inneudos in the OC thread. :heh:
Actually, The Singapore Army has a glut of Majors in the system. They got their ranks simply on the virtue of their studies. All of them are Majors, but now there are too many of them and they get stuck in the Ministry of Defence with nothing productive to do.
So yeah, plenty of twenty plus year old majors running around here. Most of them though eventually find a civilian post to go to. So say she already was on the fast track at 9, then completes her officer corp training at 11 and with a rank of 2lt or even Lt. Hitting Captain in a year is pretty common for high achievers and scholars which Hayate is both.
So yeah, there are some peactime armies that do so, since their culture is more civilian than anything else. Decades of peace and stable government can do that to most armies.
Xellos-_^
2007-06-11, 19:40
That seemed quoted straight out of the inneudos in the OC thread. :heh:
It would also explain why Craim is in charge of the church despite her young age.
MOE
It would also explain why Craim is in charge of the church despite her young age.
MOEI went with the cross of the better bits of Relena Peacecraft and Cagalli for juvenile super politician traits but there's no denying that outlook has a big part to play too. :3
For God Empress S******* H*****!!!
dodgethis_sg
2007-06-12, 07:55
Yes? Did someone invoke the name of Her Most Glorious One?
Yes? Did someone invoke the name of Her Most Glorious One?The OC thread is a very friendly place to be if you are in Her allegience. :D
...and I'm off-topic. :heh:
A question on the subject of millitairy ranks, does the air force rank of Wing Commander, being a commander of only aircraft, hold the authority to command people of other forces?
For example, according to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General) table (on the right side of the screen), a Wing Commander is technically equal in rank to a Lieutenant Colonel or a Commander, does that mean that the Wing Commander has the authority to command land and naval forces below those rankings, or is there a difference in hierarchy between land, naval and air forces as well?
Avatar_notADV
2007-06-16, 15:17
First, Wing Commander is a rank unique to the British and commonwealth militaries. The US uses army ranks for the air force (well, it used to BE the Army Air Force, huh?)
It's tough to say. Generally speaking, you'll have the authority of your rank (so, say, a Captain in the navy will rank over an army Lt.), but that doesn't necessarily mean that a Marine colonel can happen across a company of army troops and tell them "go take that hill". Typically in a combined-operations environment, the chain of command will be specifically delineated to reduce the amount of inter-service reporting - there'll only be a few points of interface through designated liaison officers. So in reality this sort of situation only crops up in the middle of combat or in emergencies.
Keep in mind that the Japanese military is an oddball among the western militaries, in that it has the same rank system through its navy and its army - we tend to translate the terms depending on the branch of the service that the person is in, but in the end, it's the same rank in Japanese. (This actually came up in Sakura Wars... Ohgami, an ensign, gets kicked over to the army at the same rank, and so boom, it's now Lt. Ohgami.)
Also, the TSAB is even more of an oddball, because it doesn't have the same separation of branches. Its air force is not a separate service, just a relatively elite formation staffed by more powerful mages who (usually) started out with the ground-pounders. We've only seen one unit of ground forces, in a disaster scenario, where they pretty much let a sixteen-year-old take command because she was more competent; we have to assume that the TSAB is much more likely to accept an "ad hoc" command from a higher-rank officer from another branch of the service simply because that officer probably has the abilities to back it up. ;p
Anh_Minh
2007-06-16, 15:25
"Right, wrong, I'm the officer with the S+ attack spell."? "I won't ask you to trust me or my intelligence. I'll ask you to trust that I can set you on fire with a thought."?
It might be interesting to compare TSAB with Battletech military organization, especially groups like the Clans.
Battletech what?! ~ :confused:
It doesn't matter what they were exactly ~ just what's the point your trying to make with them.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-06-17, 11:43
It might be interesting to compare TSAB with Battletech military organization, especially groups like the Clans.
I remember seeing a site with a thorough explanation of all inconsistances of Battletech universe :rolleyes: TSAB could deserve something similar as well :heh:
I remember seeing a site with a thorough explanation of all inconsistances of Battletech universe :rolleyes: TSAB could deserve something similar as well :heh:At least that'll make my job as a fanon writer a lot easier. :heh:
Battletech what?! ~ :confused:
It doesn't matter what they were exactly ~ just what's the point your trying to make with them.
Promotions and such in groups like the Clans don't exactly follow modern military hierarchy and protocol, so that would be something worth looking at.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-06-17, 20:52
Promotions and such in groups like the Clans don't exactly follow modern military hierarchy and protocol, so that would be something worth looking at.
Though I find it unlikely that some variation of Clans' Trials system exists in TSAB, that could be quite interesting.
Though I find it unlikely that some variation of Clans' Trials system exists in TSAB, that could be quite interesting.
I wouldn't expect TSAB to copy the Trials system (which more resembles the 'promotions' of the Terran Empire of Star Trek), but testing of sorts for promotions would make sense.
Okita Souji
2007-06-18, 01:29
No they are mostly a clone army.
That's why they all sound the same. //end-off-topiclessSo ~ this was never portrayed as japanese military. Not like I know anything about it, but I do imagine Nano-Military is more in between the middle ground of mass-recruits & special forces.
Judging from those mages in episode one, the training seems to be ~ umm.. the make-you-rough, but can't afford you to quit. :) If it was more japanese-military (or any other normal one) I would expect them to salute and code-speak at every *bip* out of Hayate's mouth ~ :heh: And yet they are so casual.
It's more like the Nano-Military is trained more as an police force then anything.
The general discipline and combat tactics support this ~ :p
- - - -
Signum, Vita & Co should be the only ones with the l33tish training.
Here is some of my thoughts and stuff to input to the thread. :)
The main thing I have seen linked to the Japanese military is that the rank names (in Japanese) are the current titles used in the Japanese Air Self Defense force and the Japanese Ground Self Defense Force depending on what position and i'm guessing fighting ability the character has. At times you will hear the full title used and at others the abbreviated title (mainly heard for officer and NCO ranks). Example: Nittou Rikusa ---> Nisa or Rikusoucho ---> Soucho
Ground Forces:
Erio and Caro are both Santou Rikushi (Recruits).
Teana and Suabru are both Nittou Rikushi (Private Second Class)
Shari is a Ittou Rikushi (Private First Class)
Hayate intially had the rank of Ittou Rikui (Captain) but was promoted to Nitou Rikusa (Lieutenant Colonel) when she took command of Mobile Section 6.
Air Forces:
Nanoha and Teana's brother have the rank of Ittou Kuui (Captain - Air Force).
Signum is a Nittou Kuui (First Lieutenant). I assume Vita and Shamal are the same rank, although the wiki entry says Vita is a Second Lieutenant and I haven't found anything so far in the eps that name her rank.
Rein is a Kuusoucho (Chief Master Sergeant) which I find odd since Hayate is in the ground forces dept. Maybe someone can shed some light as to why they may have done this?
Fate has the title of Agent. This is similar to the agents in the United States Air Force Office of Special Investigations (OSI) as agents do not have a rank title. See below for info of what OSI does.
Breakdown of Japanese Military ranks for Air and Land Forces
http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index.php?p=show&id=150&sid=872
http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index.php?p=show&id=150&sid=876
Note:
Rank names in Japan were changed after WWII but still retain the same english counterpart. You'll hear the old titles used in series like Gundam though. Anyways, back to the ranks in Nanoha.
Info on the Office of Special Investigations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Air_Force_Office_of_Special_Investigations
arkhangelsk
2007-07-13, 12:18
But that's what we're saying - 10 years of service isn't enough to hit Lt. Colonel.
Dudko died as a Captain Second Rank on Kursk, age 31, XO of 1st ranked sub, the Kursk - that's about 10 years of service, and on perhaps the premier submarine of a Navy. OK, it is the Russian Navy, but I discuss this more below.
First, keep in mind that Hayate started off from nothing but a big ball of potential. She wasn't a combat veteran. She didn't even have a device. She couldn't be trusted to command her knights directly, given what had just happened. She'd cast a grand total of what, ONE spell in a combat situation. And, not to be rude, she was actually crippled at the time, even though it got better.
To be fair, she did show a great ability to adjust in the incident. She actually figured out that she can just call her knights back out from the book (thus bringing out the extra needed manpower to do the job), and both her spells were well executed - note that she was the only one who did not expend any cartridges during the last engagement.
Reinforce was helping her, but hey, everyone else were using devices (that they are a lot more familiar with) as well. Her first battle was against a boss.
Also, in the comics, she was already being trained as a candidate officer even as her legs were coming up (not a big problem because she could move around quite well transformed).
You get your commission as a 2nd Lt., then promotions go up 1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Colonel. Even if we admit Hayate directly to the service from the point her legs start working again, that means she's been promoted four times within nine years, which is -way- more than the average officer promotion rate in a real-world military, outside an airforce actually at war...
Actually, all three of them seemed to have came up in the TSAB's equivalent of OCS - 3 months only.
You can get a promotion as a reward for an act of heroism, certainly. But typically, the understanding is that you'll spend a longer time than usual at the next rank, because the military doesn't like having officers that are way younger (or older) than the norm for that rank. You don't generally want officers with less experience giving orders to officers of greater experience. (Of course, it's different between NCOs and officers, but that's part of the game.)
The first problem is - what is experience. It certainly is not synonymous with "seniority". The TSAB is a bit unique here because it is neither fully at peace or fully at war. How close you are to a war footing depends on your eliteness. Mundane ground battalions may spend their entire careers effectively at peace, maybe moving out to fight an occasional fire. Elite mages may be asked to fight on a wide variety of battlefields every day, and they would almost always draw the toughest ones. Obviously, one is getting experience at an insanely higher rate (even before we consider the sheer ability differential).
Some militaries actually formalize advantages for situations where only part of a military goes to fight and gains combat experience. Soviet officers fighting in Afghanistan were counted double - one year in Afghanistan looks like 2 not just on the paybook, but the career/seniority book and time-to-pension book as well. This made a lot more people want to go to what otherwise is a completely hellhole for little gain.
This may also explain why Hayate advanced so much faster. From 13 onwards, Nanoha was a Combat Instructor - a privileged and elite position but not one with many chances for combat. Fate is Enforcer, so she has a variety of high and low difficulty jobs. But Hayate probably only gets brought out with her Wolkenritter on the toughest as TSAB's Central's elite Reserve - Special Investigations Officer. She might literally be getting 3-4 years of "book seniority" for every year she actually serves - and it won't be unfair if she is getting the toughest.
On top of that, once you're above Captain, it's not really a combat position - your administrative skills are almost as important as your leadership skills at that level. We'll grant Hayate a superior ability to organize, but is it so superior that her superiors were able to recognize it in a -young girl-? Enough to get them to approve her promotion? Especially knowing that, at this point, further staff promotions are inevitable - even if she's the worst Lt. Colonel in the service, she'll have the seniority to hit full bird before 30 and general before -40-?
For all we know, another promotion is due to come to her as soon as this whole Relic thing blows over.
She did, of course, pass the command school exam, and for all we know, she got honors (according to the Japanese NanohaWiki she was promoted two ranks at once, which suggests an honor student). That would suggest on paper she has at least similar abilities to her (presumably much older competitors) in the command school.
The exact transition zone for various level changes depending on the military anyway.
I don't buy it. For me, that's enough evidence that the TSAB puts a heavy thumb on the scales for high ranking mages - that Hayate isn't a Lt. Colonel because she's a superior military administrator or combat leader, but because she's got that SS after her name.
Yes, but it is not a solely magic power thing. It is mentioned in the NanohaA comics that magic is highly dependent on the sciences - especially mathematics which underlie the creation of magical arrays. It is mentioned that Fate, for example, has a Master's equivalent knowledge of Magic, and that she can help Miyuki (high schooler) with her math homework quite easily.
Yuuno, as you know, has been writing papers and by the age of 19 is already a rather well known doctor/professor.
Thus, while it is not obvious onscreen, a mage at 10 is actually a genius across at least some parts of the intellectual spectrum. In other words, they are not only promoting the good mages fast, they are also promoting some of the brainiest people fast, and who can argue with that.
Oddly, Nanoha and Fate are much more believable as Captains. For one thing, we know they were somewhat veteran before entering the service at all, y'know, from the first two seasons and all. ;p We know that Nanoha has gotten up to enough exploits to have picked up a nifty-keen nickname. And Captain is only two promotions up from where they would have entered at, assuming the TSAB was willing to admit them straight into the officer corps (reasonable, though again, it's purely deference to their abilities.) You can make captain by 30 if you start at 20 and work hard (and are lucky and see action, and Nanoha has all of that). So, starting at 10, okay, captain by 20 isn't toooooo much of a stretch.
Actually, the United States Army has recently reduced its time-in-service requirements for Captaincy to a mere 38 months, something which has caused considerable distress.
Of course, all of this assumes a correlation with a Western-style system of commissioned military officers. If the TSAB starts its officers off at a different rank, results can vary widely. But keep in mind that the trainees that Nanoha and friends have on hand are all -privates-, so unless they're shortly to be promoted big-time, that makes the situation even worse.
Well, that's because they aren't quite as elite as our heroines. Remember that our heroines are in fact covert genius, not just overt uber-mages. Though Teana was given a shot at officers' school as well (she just didn't pass the entrance exam).
The TSAB position is not easily comparable to Western militaries. I've mentioned the way the units are not gaining experience anywhere near evenly.
Also, there are many internal circumstances that are not easily seen. Since ranks are but mere decorations, let's look at positions. The seniority one requires to get a particular position actually varies quite widely.
The Soviet Army, for example, is a place where officers advance in position (if they are good and if they have connections) very fast. Captains can command battalions (mostly Majors, but some Captains, and you are probably a little slow if you are a Lt.C) and thus it is perfectly possible to get a battalion command before 30 (<10 years of service), as are positions as 3rd (corvette/frigate) and even 2nd rank (destroyer) warship commanders.
Even a regimental commander position is achievable at 32. A company you might be able to get as soon as you graduate a military "Higher School" as a Lieutenant.
Of course, a compensatory factor with the Soviets is that officers are required to do less in some ways. A company or even battalion have few administrative tasks, for one. They also expend less time in "Joint Duty" assignments. But such factors are less easily seen than the 32-year old Soviet regimental commander.
To go in the other direction, the British don't let their officers command companies until they are 35. They also have fewer joint duty assignments. For this reason, the British sometimes worry about the American system. At least the Soviets could say that all they require their junior leaders to do (at minimum) is to execute Column-Prebattle-Battle and back Drills, but company commanders in both the US and British system are required to handled combined arms teams.
So, it really all depends.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-02, 08:29
Taken here from Post 406 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1127458&postcount=406) of the Manga thread.
Unlikely. The most obvious retort is that she has a higher rank than Nanoha and Fate, who did spend all their time developing their combat prowess.
Well, but those two were not really that serious about promotions. I'm not saying some bureaucratic work is un-necessary for her rise, but I'm saying that given the obvious correlation between and rank, Hayate would have done better had she did integrated some close combat work into her schedule and gotten an even more l33t rank, such as SS Air Combat or SSS General or maybe even SSS Air Combat.
Whatever she was doing as an investigator and career-builder advanced her up the ranks faster than their power-building. Also, the high-ranking TSA types we see tend to be chairbound despite their considerably magical power- Lindy, Graham, and Chrono in his current incarnation see little action. High-ranking officers don't seem to be expected to fight.
Yes, which is a real shame. They are, however, obviously expected to lead from the front if things start to fall to pieces. Both Lindy and Hayate liked their desks, but when the crap hit the fan, they both moved out. And it is when the crap hits the fan that well-balanced powers (or at least not a complete hole in one aspect) become important.
By the way, what if the HQ itself gets attacked, like it did in Ep17. Imagine the battle if Hayate was there trying to command instead of sitting as an influence-less member in Regius' little meeting. Of course, she would have no guards...
Heh, but with the familiars you could have all kinds of nice soapy interpersonal tension between the Wolkenritter and the new kids. Plus the Wolkenritter programs might be something more arcane than she can safely tinker with.
I'd grant that possibility.
1) Don't recall Yuuno doing it. At the very least, he couldn't get them out of Vita's barrier in A's.
True, but he did do it in the original series. Around Ep5 to forcefully teleport Arf against her will under barrier conditions, and another time in Ep9 to force transport Nanoha and himself into Fate and Arf's barrier.
2) Haven't seen much use of combat teleportation either. When was the last time someone teleported into combat? Chrono's intro in the first season? Maybe there's a reason for that too.
Did you see Lutecia's wonderful use of teleportation tactics? When they grab her, they just have to make her an instructor!
3) Well, they declined to use it to get to gain distance on the Book. If I had been able to teleport away from the YnS-mod Starlight Breaker, I would have. Then again her barrier might have been special. Was the Book after all.
Well, they don't know how big the SB would be, so they cannot set a distance.
4 specializes in fooling electronic systems, which the Midchildan mission control scanners use. Shamal uses a rare form of ancient magic with a highly specialized device. Regarding 'professionalism', Shamal probably has a hundred times the experience of everyone in RF6 mission control put together.
Actually, it seems to have no particular specialization. In any case, Midchildra does not really have much distinction between "electronics" (optronics? astralronics?) and "magic" - it is all one big lump. For Shamal's specialization, the device (and herself) is a Generic Rear Support Device covering various fields like Defense, Healing as well as Sensing. The idea that it can be more "specialized" than a dedicated scanner or scanning crew is absurd.
I don't think the power density on AoE spells is all that low. The Book's certainly weren't.
Actually, it was relatively low, especially on the outer ends. Do you think if Starlight Breaker had been fired by the Book in Nanoha's beam rather than that glowing blob, they could have defended against it with Protection Powered (IIRC it was Protection) and Defensor Plus?
It is a matter of physics that for a given power, AoE attacks will have a lower power density than concentrated beam attacks.
And despite the pyrotechnics they were trying to capture 4 and 10; it's very possible Hayate's DE wasn't meant to do more than herd them into the Fate/Nanoha vice. I'm assuming our little hypothetical combat allows for bloodshed.
Yes, but all we have is that shot, so we take the measurements. It makes perfect sense that the Numbers will have a good degree of resistance against magic anyway.
Also, as a separate issue the numbers just aren't a very good matchup for all the main characters together. Even if Hayate was reduced to hiding behind the Wolkenritter support casters and their shields the whole battle, the flight-capable numbers don't have the combat power to take Fate/Nanoha/Signum/Vita together. Their two strongest fighters (wingblades and boomerangs) can hold off Fate, and if we're really, REALLY generous maybe the inferior twinblades and raystorm can handle Nanoha... but who does that leave to deal with Signum and Vita? Rollerblades and surfboard? That's a five-second fight, and then the other four are hosed.
I said that they were in a "horrible situation", did I. The point of the thought exercise was to demonstrate how potentially easy it is even for an moderately (though not overwhelmingly) inferior force to get through to someone with no close combat capability in the chaos of combat, thus illustrating the naivety of Hayate's combat "doctrine".
You might notice, BTW, that Wingblade and Boomerang were actually winning slowly but surely against Fate, and they weren't looking particularly forced - the only person starting to look exhausted is Fate. Before you blame the AMF, they were winning slowly but surely in Ep17 too - it'd have taken time but in the end they'd have won from the looks of it. Which suggests if it really came down to it, 1 would be able to tie or at least hold out for a while against even an Ace. Twinblades and Raystorm took out 2 of the Wolkenritter rapidly enough (one strike each), even counting their fatigue, I'd give them odds to at least give the two more powerful ones a good run for their money. That leaves Hayate almost wide open.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-02, 10:16
Refer to Post 1358 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1114845&postcount=1358)
The structure of the unit makes it difficult to hold a credible reserve since it doesn't have a third unit equivalent to Stars/Lightning nor an equivalent to a heavy weapons company. There isn't enough transport to support a third ground maneuver element anyways. As it stands, there's no organic transport to move Stars and Lighting separately by air so even those can't really be treated as independent maneuver elements. Using the Aces separately from the forwards makes for unbalanced combat groups which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it makes RF6 more unwieldy when its commander is already found wanting.
It would be more difficult to use a true triangular unit so inappropriately as has been demonstrated in the show. It kind of makes you wonder what kind of base TOE RF6 is using or if it is using any at all.
To speak in the unit composition's defense, the simple truth is that RF6 has no base for its TOE. It definitely hasn't been tried in the TASB. Any good mage is an instant officer and used individually, while enlisted (i.e. wimp) mages are in large groups. 1-1 ratios of officers to enlisted mages simply hasn't been tried before. Finding inspiration in the units of Earth would also be difficult because this kind of thing is kind out of our experience.
It does, to be fair, also have a Heavy Weapons unit - Hayate herself. You can make an ersatz maneuver reserve out of Zafira and reinforce it by pulling the two Knights out of the line.
But really, who were they kidding anyway. Limiting ourselves to the chosen raw material, there are two real teams in RF6. The air team and the ground team. The ground team, as the Numbers already noticed, really need all 4 of them as a unit to really become effective, and they would almost never be working with the commanders, especially with Fate who has her own duties.
Since Teana is shaping up to be a relatively effective commander (she seems to be the one who can retain any tactical brain cells all the way to Ep26), let her lead the enlisted and forget about pretending there are two teams. Then have the air mages as another group and use them in pairs (preferably in 4s, but this is the TSAB with its Dispersal Policy).
This is where the limited mage ranks per unit make things very ugly.
To be fair, this is where the limited supply of good officer mages make things very tricky.
Normally a company CO only represents a small fraction of the units combat strength since they're still really one rifleman out a couple hundred. A battalion CO might have a rifle but the rifle is really only for personal defense as they can do far more through commanding their unit than acting as a rifleman. The CO of a combat unit in the TSAB really needs to be an experienced mage and ideally one that can fly so that they have the mobility to go anywhere the unit needs to go as the situation demands. If they aren't a mage or can't fly, then they really need an adjutant with equivalent powers. If you have neither, then you're left with a CO that can't make any personal observations of the frontline, no one act as a liaison with other units that are deployed in the air and perform similar functions.
Any mage power you allocate to the CO and adjutant, leaves the unit with less combat strength to distribute to its component units and you really need to make at least three companies worth and each of those companies will need a company commander capable of commanding from the frontline. Battalion executive officers also play an important role but by then how many mage ranks do you have left to use? I can kind of picture TSAB battalions consisting almost entirely of service and support. If you run out of mage ranks, since you can't use conventional weapons, their really isn't anything else to fill out the balance of the unit.Even with perfect communication, a TSAB CO can't be expected to fight well and command several companies at the same time. If they take the time to fight, then they can't focus on commanding and lose combat power indirectly. If they take time to command, then they're losing combat power directly. In RF6's case, the CO's nominal combat strength is greater than any of its component units leaving the CO with a nasty dilemma.
Well, that's easy, now that we found out she has all the close combat coefficients of Caro...
I think we've already seen what the TASB does in this dilemma is to create a strongly hierarchical structure. Concentrate most of the allocation for one commander (the battalion or ship commander) and one adjutant (they call it the Executive Officer). Now put the rest of the allocation among about a company of troops.
Because of the strongly sloping effectiveness of mages (a good one beats a hundred wimps), there really is little point in having "average" mages (platoon commanders) in moderate quantities. Just get one or two of the best mages you can, and see if you have enough left to make a bunch of somewhat useful enlisted number-fillers. Leave the rest as support led by a chief of staff - no, of course he's not a mage.
This actually works (most of the time) because the TSAB is a paramilitary rather than a full military organization. Most problems can be solved by lower ranks working in small groups. It is not like a military where two companies of a battalion have to be on line with a third ready to follow on a few minutes notice. The Executive officer will most often be leading a small squad, instead of a full company, much less battalion.
Further, a TSAB commander does have a few advantages. Several Earth militaries also have battalion commanders come out to fight (the Soviets, and IIRC the Americans) and certainly all militaries have their company commanders fight. A Earth CO on the front is as vulnerable as his subordinates, while a TSAB CO would be much better protected and survivable. Units in the TSAB really revolve around their front-line CO. If you try to talk to a platoon leader and he doesn't respond, you don't need to talk to his platoon again because it is either dead or will be finished off in the next minute by the enemy. He also doesn't have to play around with the complex process of calling in artillery - the front line CO is already the unit's artillery.
They really should be training the way they intend to fight. Training to fight in two different ways greatly increases the amount of training needed.
Well, they are doing the best they can in the face of a totally moronic limiter scheme. To find a silver lining in it, it may also give her a small sense of what it feels like to fight in AMF - more relative effort for every move for lesser results.
Mirificus
2007-09-02, 13:03
I overlooked this thread somehow. I think I must have read it as "military authority in Nanoha" :heh: The outlook has changed a lot since mid-July. I miss the old Hayate from when she used to be competent :(
Refer to Post 1358 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1114845&postcount=1358)
To speak in the unit composition's defense, the simple truth is that RF6 has no base for its TOE. It definitely hasn't been tried in the TASB. Any good mage is an instant officer and used individually, while enlisted (i.e. wimp) mages are in large groups. 1-1 ratios of officers to enlisted mages simply hasn't been tried before. Finding inspiration in the units of Earth would also be difficult because this kind of thing is kind out of our experience.
It is ironic yet not surprising that a unit with so many "leaders" has so many fundamental leadership issues. Then again, most of the problems aren't through conflicts with command authority but through inaction.
It does, to be fair, also have a Heavy Weapons unit - Hayate herself. You can make an ersatz maneuver reserve out of Zafira and reinforce it by pulling the two Knights out of the line.
She's more of an artillery unit than a heavy weapons unit as she has no real capacity for personal defense. She doesn't have the close to mid-range firepower that machine guns would normally provide. If she sends Zafira et al out to the fight and then she's attacked, then she's out of the fight. All these limitations make it more difficult to hold a credible reserve.
But really, who were they kidding anyway. Limiting ourselves to the chosen raw material, there are two real teams in RF6. The air team and the ground team. The ground team, as the Numbers already noticed, really need all 4 of them as a unit to really become effective, and they would almost never be working with the commanders, especially with Fate who has her own duties.
I agree with that. It is kind of what I was saying. The problem though is that they aren't organized that way, haven't really trained that way or employed that way. We have seen them train as forwards versus aces once but I question the usefulness of the training for the aces when the forwards are at such a huge disadvantage. The aces can handicap themselves but then they wouldn't be fighting the way they would normally fight and they can't make the forwards fly.
Since Teana is shaping up to be a relatively effective commander (she seems to be the one who can retain any tactical brain cells all the way to Ep26), let her lead the enlisted and forget about pretending there are two teams. Then have the air mages as another group and use them in pairs (preferably in 4s, but this is the TSAB with its Dispersal Policy).
It is nice seeing at least one competent character. Giving up the farce of two forward teams that can't even be employed separately would definitely be a good idea. They fight together so they should be organized and do their training accordingly.
Well, that's easy, now that we found out she has all the close combat coefficients of Caro...
I think we've already seen what the TASB does in this dilemma is to create a strongly hierarchical structure. Concentrate most of the allocation for one commander (the battalion or ship commander) and one adjutant (they call it the Executive Officer). Now put the rest of the allocation among about a company of troops.
This actually works (most of the time) because the TSAB is a paramilitary rather than a full military organization. Most problems can be solved by lower ranks working in small groups. It is not like a military where two companies of a battalion have to be on line with a third ready to follow on a few minutes notice. The Executive officer will most often be leading a small squad, instead of a full company, much less battalion.
Right, that was disappointing but not surprising for that to pop up about Hayate. Well, then there's no question about having her lead one of the maneuver units. Maybe they would be satisfied Hayate piloted a desk and a small one at that.
It makes sense to keep the unit small if the commander needs to play such a large role in the fighting. The mages will all need to have similar mobility or the unit will need enough organic air transport to avoid RF6's mobility problems. Is the battalion (company-strength) the basic maneuver unit of the TSAB or is it the battalion sub-unit (platoon-strength)? The TSAB itself seems to consider the individual to be the basic maneuver unit, capable of operating independently and supporting itself for extended periods :rolleyes:
If they want their battalions to operate independently, then they mages for some of the support tasks like reconnaissance and MP duties. They can either be organic or attached but they need to be there.
All of this leaves the TSAB with extremely small battalions with teeth to tail ratios typical of at least a divisional or maybe even a corps-sized unit. I don't think we'd ever see an actual TSAB division without even more logic-defying powers.
Further, a TSAB commander does have a few advantages. Several Earth militaries also have battalion commanders come out to fight (the Soviets, and IIRC the Americans) and certainly all militaries have their company commanders fight. A Earth CO on the front is as vulnerable as his subordinates, while a TSAB CO would be much better protected and survivable.
That's a good point. Unfortunately, it doesn't apply to RF6 and Hayate.
Units in the TSAB really revolve around their front-line CO. If you try to talk to a platoon leader and he doesn't respond, you don't need to talk to his platoon again because it is either dead or will be finished off in the next minute by the enemy. He also doesn't have to play around with the complex process of calling in artillery - the front line CO is already the unit's artillery.
Agreed.
Well, they are doing the best they can in the face of a totally moronic limiter scheme. To find a silver lining in it, it may also give her a small sense of what it feels like to fight in AMF - more relative effort for every move for lesser results.
Ironic how the way they're fighting without limiters is probably at least somewhat justifiable in spite of the writing.
Frankenstein's Clare
2007-09-02, 17:49
Taken here from Post 406 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1127458&postcount=406) of the Manga thread.
True, but he did do it in the original series. Around Ep5 to forcefully teleport Arf against her will under barrier conditions, and another time in Ep9 to force transport Nanoha and himself into Fate and Arf's barrier.
5- His barrier, not hers.
9- They use 'barrier' for all types of field effects. Fate had asked Arf for a 'spatial barrier' a term that could be very general or very specific, we don't know. But at any rate capture/prison barriers are those shown to be effective against teleport in A's.
Did you see Lutecia's wonderful use of teleportation tactics? When they grab her, they just have to make her an instructor!
Just seen chunks of unsubbed eps. If you're referring to her summoning, that seems to be a special case. And yes, a very tactically useful one.
Well, they don't know how big the SB would be, so they cannot set a distance.
They can go to the edge of the barrier. Why not play it safe against something you know is going to kill you if it hits anywhere near you?
Hey, actually... the Arthra teleported Arisa and Suzuka out of the barrier, even though it was the same type as Vita's. Plothole!
Actually, it seems to have no particular specialization. In any case, Midchildra does not really have much distinction between "electronics" (optronics? astralronics?) and "magic" - it is all one big lump. For Shamal's specialization, the device (and herself) is a Generic Rear Support Device covering various fields like Defense, Healing as well as Sensing. The idea that it can be more "specialized" than a dedicated scanner or scanning crew is absurd.
My turn to ask you if you've been watching the series. 'Lies and illusions woven of electricity' is the quote, I believe. Her description also notes that she specializes in ECM (didn't you help translate that?). And she pulled the hack job on army HQ's systems. She's good at messing with conventional tech (at least what passes on modern Midchilda for 'conventional tech'- it includes electronics, at any rate), and the 'dedicated scanners' presumably use a lot of conventional tech, being operated by non-mages.
Shamal's device's alternate form (the pendulum/portal) is dedicated to scanning operations. It was she, not the scanning tech and officers on the Arthra, that provided the teleport lock on the Defense Program's core. And again, in terms of experience, there's no way a room full of 20somethings can come close to her.
It's absurd to think she's 'more specialized' than a single-function conventional-tech suite, but that doesn't mean she isn't better.
But the real point is Quattro's specialization, which is against electronic systems. The conventional-tech scanners are something she's used to fooling, Shamal's magic is something she might have a passing familiarity with through Lutecia but that she's almost certainly never had to work against before.
Actually, it was relatively low, especially on the outer ends. Do you think if Starlight Breaker had been fired by the Book in Nanoha's beam rather than that glowing blob, they could have defended against it with Protection Powered (IIRC it was Protection) and Defensor Plus?
No. But hitting them directly with the beam is totally unnecessary; just landing the shot within a few hundred feet would have been enough. They were far enough out that the blast wave took half a minute to reach them but Nanoha was still using two cartridges for her barrier. I think it's fair to say that if they'd actually been anywhere near the point of impact they'd have been vaporized. (Energy density in an expanding shell is an inverse-square equation, so as you move them closer to the point of impact the energy load on the barrier gets a lot higher.)
It is a matter of physics that for a given power, AoE attacks will have a lower power density than concentrated beam attacks.
As per the above, that doesn't mean they can't be powerful. It just means that if you only have one target and accuracy isn't an issue you might as well use a beam. As a tangent, the beams have their own, much smaller efficiency issue in that they tend to deliver energy over a fairly long period of time. If the defenses dissipate energy quickly the max load on the defense will be a lot smaller than if it was delivered in a short period.
And of course, all this assumes that all uses of magical energy are equal. The spatial distortion created by diabolic emission, for example, might have effect against most magical defenses out of proportion with the input energy needed to create it.
Yes, but all we have is that shot, so we take the measurements. It makes perfect sense that the Numbers will have a good degree of resistance against magic anyway.
4 in particular has high magic defense.
You might notice, BTW, that Wingblade and Boomerang were actually winning slowly but surely against Fate, and they weren't looking particularly forced - the only person starting to look exhausted is Fate. Before you blame the AMF, they were winning slowly but surely in Ep17 too - it'd have taken time but in the end they'd have won from the looks of it. Which suggests if it really came down to it, 1 would be able to tie or at least hold out for a while against even an Ace. Twinblades and Raystorm took out 2 of the Wolkenritter rapidly enough (one strike each), even counting their fatigue, I'd give them odds to at least give the two more powerful ones a good run for their money. That leaves Hayate almost wide open.
Am blaming AMF. Battle in 17 showed no signs of favoring either side- Fate took one deep breath after a protracted exchange of blows. That isn't a sign of being worn down. And as far as I know she still hadn't released her limiter.
Descriptions specifically state that Wingblade and Boomerang are their best aerial combatants. Twinblades and Raystorm are competent but they aren't in the same league. I don't see how success against two AA support casters fighting with all sorts of handicaps makes them a match for an S+ aerial combat specialist. And for nitpicking's sake, Raystorm was already onscene and fighting when they cut to Shamal and Zafira's defeat- it wasn't one blow each.
And I still think the numbers would take casualties before they even made it into close combat. Signum has her bow, Fate has her weather control, Nanoha's a beam sniper and Hayate is basically a strategic missile sub. The only significant cover the numbers are going to get is going to come from raystorm, who we already know Shamal can neutralize one-to-one.
((You just moved this here and now the topic is changing into something more appropriate to the magic and tech thread. Sorry about this -_-.))
Mirificus
2007-09-02, 18:00
Many words...
I read through your post and I'm confused as to what exactly what your central argument is here. Is there some main point of contention?
arkhangelsk
2007-09-02, 19:12
We are debating how if it got down to it, how fast Hayate's lack of close combat capability will be her downfall.
Mirificus
2007-09-02, 19:33
We are debating how if it got down to it, how fast Hayate's lack of close combat capability will be her downfall.
I'm sure Frankenstein's Clare would frame that differently ;)
My first thought, in regards to close combat, is that the Strikers Hayate would simply disengage. It would take her out of the fight but would be the most "efficient" thing to do. She seems to have some kind of magical power that allows her to completely disappear at critical moments.
Frankenstein's Clare
2007-09-02, 20:11
Yeah, the argument kind of fell apart into a bunch of nitpicking because I didn't like ark's example battle.
He thinks that it's indefensible for someone with Hayate's magic potential to never learn how to defend herself in a one-on-one confrontation and has been arguing that Nanohaverse combat is sufficiently fluid that she can't count on the Wolkenritter to protect her.
I've been arguing that high-ranking TSAB mages aren't expected to fight and her choice to pursue her career to the exclusion of personal magical power is sensible for someone with her goals.
Basically I'm an apologist at heart and need to find logical reasons for everything to be the way it is (combat teleportation is rare- must be easily blocked, Hayate never learned good combat skills- must be hard enough for her that it would have impinged on her career-building goals), while he, like the majority of this thread, is fine with just saying the writers made the characters stupid and leaving it at that.
Mirificus
2007-09-02, 21:10
Yeah, the argument kind of fell apart into a bunch of nitpicking because I didn't like ark's example battle.
He thinks that it's indefensible for someone with Hayate's magic potential to never learn how to defend herself in a one-on-one confrontation and has been arguing that Nanohaverse combat is sufficiently fluid that she can't count on the Wolkenritter to protect her.
I've been arguing that high-ranking TSAB mages aren't expected to fight and her choice to pursue her career to the exclusion of personal magical power is sensible for someone with her goals.
Basically I'm an apologist at heart and need to find logical reasons for everything to be the way it is (combat teleportation is rare- must be easily blocked, Hayate never learned good combat skills- must be hard enough for her that it would have impinged on her career-building goals), while he, like the majority of this thread, is fine with just saying the writers made the characters stupid and leaving it at that.
I can't really say I envy that position. Whether deliberately or not, the writers seem to be making the show more and more difficult to defend. There may be some in-universe explanations but writers' treatment of Hayate is apathetic at best.
I posted this before regarding force structure. I think it is relevant to the discussion. The writers were already expecting Hayate to perform to many functions for RF6 and the retconn with regards to close combat skills make those expectations even more unreasonable.
Normally a company CO only represents a small fraction of a unit's combat strength since they're still really one rifleman out a couple hundred. A battalion CO might have a rifle but the rifle is really only for personal defense as they can do far more through commanding their unit than acting as a rifleman. The CO of a combat unit in the TSAB really needs to be an experienced mage and ideally one that can fly so that they have the mobility to go anywhere the unit needs to go as the situation demands. If they aren't a mage or can't fly, then they really need an adjutant with equivalent powers. If you have neither, then you're left with a CO that can't make any personal observations of the frontline, no one act as a liaison with other units that are deployed in the air and perform similar functions.
Even with perfect communication, a TSAB CO can't be expected to fight well and command several companies at the same time. If they take the time to fight, then they can't focus on commanding and lose combat power indirectly. If they take time to command, then they're losing combat power directly. In RF6's case, the CO's nominal combat strength is greater than any of its component units leaving the CO with a nasty dilemma.
If Hayate can't be committed to the fight or is forced to disengage for any reason, RF6 forfeits a huge fraction of its combat power. The slot she's taking up counts against the unit's limiters but her lack of close combat skills makes it more likely that she won't be able to be committed at the main effort or be forced to disengage.
Worse still, while she is capable of flying, she can't personally direct the main effort or make personal observations without having escorts that RF6 can't afford to detach. In Episodes 17 and 21 RF6 is unable to mass decisive combat power anywhere. Any mages that are used to escort Hayate make it that much less likely that they'll be able to mass that decisive combat power unless Hayate herself is able to fight.
Unfortunately, Hayate's lack of close combat skills rob her of her tactical mobility and her ability to command properly. Instead of reconciling any of those demands, the writers have pretty much chosen to ignore her which makes the efforts she made to be a commander all the more disappointing.
Is it reasonable for Hayate not to work on her close combat skills?
Maybe.
Does it cost the RF6 combat power from both ends?
Definitely.
Can RF6 afford to lose that combat power?
Episodes 17-22 and military logic say no. Episodes 23-26 and the writers say yes.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-03, 00:58
5- His barrier, not hers.
Fate was there first so her barrier would be up.
They can go to the edge of the barrier. Why not play it safe against something you know is going to kill you if it hits anywhere near you?
Possibly it also takes enough time to set up they think their best chance is to concentrate on flying as fast as they can, not freeze to transport.
Hey, actually... the Arthra teleported Arisa and Suzuka out of the barrier, even though it was the same type as Vita's. Plothole!
There we go.
My turn to ask you if you've been watching the series. 'Lies and illusions woven of electricity' is the quote, I believe.
Yes, we also, however, see them clearly fooling the eyes (optronics) as well.
Her description also notes that she specializes in ECM (didn't you help translate that?). And she pulled the hack job on army HQ's systems. She's good at messing with conventional tech (at least what passes on modern Midchilda for 'conventional tech'- it includes electronics, at any rate),
In Midchildra, magic is handled by electronics. Scarlietti's non-reliance on magic is an exception, not the norm.
Shamal's device's alternate form (the pendulum/portal) is dedicated to scanning operations. It was she, not the scanning tech and officers on the Arthra, that provided the teleport lock on the Defense Program's core. And again, in terms of experience, there's no way a room full of 20somethings can come close to her.
It's absurd to think she's 'more specialized' than a single-function conventional-tech suite, but that doesn't mean she isn't better.
There are limits to what a little device can do in comparison to a massive computer room and sensor array. If the BoD's devices had such a massive superiority, the TSAB won't be able to even maintain the devices, let alone improve on them.
As per the above, that doesn't mean they can't be powerful.
Yes, they can be powerful, but they cannot be really efficient against point targets.
It just means that if you only have one target and accuracy isn't an issue you might as well use a beam.
In fact, it is when you can have accuracy that you use a beam. If you can't aim, you have to use omindirectionals.
As a tangent, the beams have their own, much smaller efficiency issue in that they tend to deliver energy over a fairly long period of time. If the defenses dissipate energy quickly the max load on the defense will be a lot smaller than if it was delivered in a short period.
A expanding bomb is also spread over a long period of time. You first touch the surface, then the innards of the blast that's pushing the outer surface ever outwards. Besides, time is a linear function, while the spread of an omnidirectional bomb is actually a CUBIC function.
Am blaming AMF. Battle in 17 showed no signs of favoring either side- Fate took one deep breath after a protracted exchange of blows.
Listen to the acoustics. There's no way you can hear that and conclude Fate is winning. She's already suffering from the beginning of inaerobic respiration - in a few minutes it'd graduate to full time panting. And even she seems to agree with 3 and 7's proposition that she won't be able to beat them next time, and she didn't. Fortunately, 7Arcs will no doubt help her cheat.
And as far as I know she still hadn't released her limiter.
According to Zest, he was detecting over-S, so Fate had already cleared off her limiter. She does have a Limit Break, but it seems like something that'd break herself along with the target so she isn't using it.
Descriptions specifically state that Wingblade and Boomerang are their best aerial combatants. Twinblades and Raystorm are competent but they aren't in the same league.
The difference between "competent", "good" and best are difficult to determine.
I don't see how success against two AA support casters fighting with all sorts of handicaps makes them a match for an S+ aerial combat specialist.
Not S+. They are only AAA+ and S-. 3 and 7 have the two S+ as their primary tasking, though if I'm the Numbers I'd pull a 4 on 4 instead of allowing 4 sets of 1 on 1s.
If Raystorm and Twinblades merely won that's one thing. But they were doing basically one-turn kills (at most 2).
And for nitpicking's sake, Raystorm was already onscene and fighting when they cut to Shamal and Zafira's defeat- it wasn't one blow each.
Raystorm from what I can see watched coldly from a distance as they killed drones. After awhile she decides to commit and makes her little speech. Her first blow took some time to penetrate but eventually did. At this time, Zafira was taken down by 12's blow. When Raystorm fired the 2nd blow, Shamal couldn't raise a new barrier - both were combat ineffective. The 2nd blow cut their HP to zero.
And I still think the numbers would take casualties before they even made it into close combat. Signum has her bow, Fate has her weather control, Nanoha's a beam sniper and Hayate is basically a strategic missile sub. The only significant cover the numbers are going to get is going to come from raystorm, who we already know Shamal can neutralize one-to-one.
She could barely hold out, and eventually Raystorm plowed through, remember? And before you saw she was just distracted and thus those cards failed, the attack drained so much power she could no longer set up a new set of cards.
Actually, they'd also have 7 for coverage. Remember her first attack on Fate. It was actually a near BVR shot - Fate did not see them, only the flash from the shot warned her (or was that the bullet closing?)
The fact that sensors don't seem too good at detecting Numbers unless they are powering up S class attacks along with the fact that they have visual magnification and infra-red vision suggests that in truth, first contact and thus first shot could easily go to the Numbers - you won't shoot at targets you don't even see.
If you went by capabilities and made a perfect plan your scenario will come to pass. But then, as I agreed from the beginning, the Numbers were on the bad side of the coefficient and numbers, so if the Aces played their cards perfectly, in theory you are right - they could stop them from reaching Hayate.
However, that has little to do with the real way these characters play their cards. If Signum is your type, she'd have sniped Zest in the back with Storm Falcon, not tried to engage in melee and wind up ruining Laevantein's scabbard (so much for Bow Form, I guess).
((You just moved this here and now the topic is changing into something more appropriate to the magic and tech thread. Sorry about this -_-.))
Ah, let's just keep it here for awhile. No one but the three of us is using this playground Besides, we are discussing Decisionmaking of our aces, too :D
According to Zest, he was detecting over-S, so Fate had already cleared off her limiter.Do we necessarily know that the limiter would cause Fate to be detected at a lower ranking? She is an S+, presumably with power reserves to match - do we know that whatever detection method is being used would trigger on Fate's limiter-reduced power output rather than her actual inherent magic level?
(If it does, then it seems to me that a self-releasable limiter would be remarkably useful as a covert-ops stealth tool.)
The fact that sensors don't seem too good at detecting Numbers unless they are powering up S class attacks along with the fact that they have visual magnification and infra-red vision suggests that in truth, first contact and thus first shot could easily go to the Numbers - you won't shoot at targets you don't even see.The Numbers' own sensing abilities seem to be rather variable.We've just seen two of them go down to a backstab by Teana, whereas Nanoha's employment of the same tactic produced minimal results against Fate and Vita. And even C3-unit Otto failed miserably at detecting Shamal and Zafira approaching.
Nightengale
2007-09-03, 02:19
Do we necessarily know that the limiter would cause Fate to be detected at a lower ranking? She is an S+, presumably with power reserves to match - do we know that whatever detection method is being used would trigger on Fate's limiter-reduced power output rather than her actual inherent magic level?
(If it does, then it seems to me that a self-releasable limiter would be remarkably useful as a covert-ops stealth tool.)
Vita never had any "limiter release" scene either despite being limited, unless we want to think that Zest himself was limited when he fought Vita. We need to base it on reasonable assumption, and I think Fate/Signum/Vita = released is viable to be accurate in that situation.
And AMF is not shown to be so powerful that it can nerf an S+ to around AA rank. It only tires them, and makes magic fusion and concentration harder, but not really 'weaken' them in the literal sense. It's a disadvantage to them, but it's not that powerful to those used to them.
Vita never had any "limiter release" scene either despite being limited, unless we want to think that Zest himself was limited when he fought Vita. We need to base it on reasonable assumption, and I think Fate/Signum/Vita = released is viable to be accurate in that situation.I can see what you're saying. What bothers me is that I don't recall Hayate ever actually being in communication with the others to give the release order. Maybe she could have done it telepathically, despite the presence of the drones' AMF... but then I'd have expected that Nanoha, Fate and Hayate would all have linked into the RF6 command net from inside the building as soon as the balloon went up, and they didn't.
Vita/Zest certainly lasted longer than you'd expect if Vita was restricted and Zest wasn't, but both Rein and Agito made a point of commenting that Vita/Rein worked together better than Agito/Zest, which might have dragged out the duel a bit. When Zest finally cut loose, though, he alone was enough to thoroughly pound both Vita and Rein... whereas later, Zest and Agito combined don't produce anywhere near the same effect on Signum and Rein.
(I'd normally put that down to Signum being a lot tougher than Vita, except that Signum's S- isn't all that different to Vita's AAA+... what is a "minus" rank, anyway? The way everybody's been talking, "+" represents a half-rank, so what's "-"? Is Signum AAA and three-quarters?)
And AMF is not shown to be so powerful that it can nerf an S+ to around AA rank. It only tires them, and makes magic fusion and concentration harder, but not really 'weaken' them in the literal sense. It's a disadvantage to them, but it's not that powerful to those used to them.The A's to StrikerS manga seemed to suggest that, although attacking an AMF-protected target was no particular problem for experienced mages, it was no picnic actually being inside the field - and Nanoha and Fate were already S-ranked by then.
We also know that AMFs have differing power levels; it's possible that a higher-level field could be used inside a base compared to that generated by the average Gadget Drone, considering the base's greater power output and lack of space constraints.
Frankenstein's Clare
2007-09-03, 04:06
Fate was there first so her barrier would be up.
Unless I missed something, the only barrier that went up was the one Yuuno used for the transfer. They don't need a barrier to do the sealing; Nanoha did her first few without any.
Yes, we also, however, see them clearly fooling the eyes (optronics) as well.
I'm aware that she uses visual illusions. What I'm differentiating between is device-based caster-guided scanning versus conventional-tech scanning.
In Midchildra, magic is handled by electronics. Scarlietti's non-reliance on magic is an exception, not the norm.
There are limits to what a little device can do in comparison to a massive computer room and sensor array. If the BoD's devices had such a massive superiority, the TSAB won't be able to even maintain the devices, let alone improve on them.
Lol? The last time I checked the average drone is a lot bigger than RH, but they don't really compare as weapons. This is still a magical girl anime. The devices have the intrinsic advantage of having an actual mage attached. If large tech-operated magitech systems could consistently outperform a mage-device pair, there wouldn't be a show.
Recall that Precia, who had an interdimensional asteroid base that made RF6's HQ look pretty dinky and a legion of mecha guardians, considered the expense and difficulty of acquiring Bardiche extreme. High-end devices are a highly refined artisan-craft technology (look at how much effort goes into their maintenance!), not a PDA. And they have that mage.
A expanding bomb is also spread over a long period of time. You first touch the surface, then the innards of the blast that's pushing the outer surface ever outwards. Besides, time is a linear function, while the spread of an omnidirectional bomb is actually a CUBIC function.
That's why I said it as a tangent and that it was a much smaller efficiency issue. But anyway, looking at the YnS-SB blast there's an outer shell of very dense magic (whatever 'magic' is...) maybe a hundred feet deep that hits them and is gone in about the space of a second. There are instances of beam attacks continuing for quite a bit longer.
Listen to the acoustics. There's no way you can hear that and conclude Fate is winning. She's already suffering from the beginning of inaerobic respiration - in a few minutes it'd graduate to full time panting. And even she seems to agree with 3 and 7's proposition that she won't be able to beat them next time, and she didn't. Fortunately, 7Arcs will no doubt help her cheat.
Panting only makes anime characters stronger. But listening to it again I agree with you. I guess I'll have to drop my standing disrespect for the numbers for the dogfighting duo. Rest are still overrated though.
According to Zest, he was detecting over-S, so Fate had already cleared off her limiter. She does have a Limit Break, but it seems like something that'd break herself along with the target so she isn't using it.
Good catch. Though since Hayate's communications were down I don't know how she would have given authorization. Plothole either way.
The difference between "competent", "good" and best are difficult to determine.
Excuse me while I develop telepathy so our discussion is no longer encumbered by the use of language and the inherent subjectivity that attends it.
Not S+. They are only AAA+ and S-. 3 and 7 have the two S+ as their primary tasking, though if I'm the Numbers I'd pull a 4 on 4 instead of allowing 4 sets of 1 on 1s.
I was assuming the numbers have to double team Fate and Nanoha, because that's the only way they've gotten anywhere against them so far. I don't see how you can argue that four 1v1s would end in anything but crushing defeat for the numbers.
4v4 is more difficult to predict since the numbers are specialists and you'd expect group combat to help make up for their deficiencies as such, but I don't think it's going to make that big a difference. It isn't like Nanoha/Fate and Signum/Vita aren't used to fighting together and covering each other. And Nanoha and Vita are tactics instructors. They aren't total rubes.
If Raystorm and Twinblades merely won that's one thing. But they were doing basically one-turn kills (at most 2).
Raystorm from what I can see watched coldly from a distance as they killed drones. After awhile she decides to commit and makes her little speech. Her first blow took some time to penetrate but eventually did. At this time, Zafira was taken down by 12's blow. When Raystorm fired the 2nd blow, Shamal couldn't raise a new barrier - both were combat ineffective. The 2nd blow cut their HP to zero.
She could barely hold out, and eventually Raystorm plowed through, remember? And before you saw she was just distracted and thus those cards failed, the attack drained so much power she could no longer set up a new set of cards.
1) I don't see how finishing off a pair of support casters who were so beat-up they could barely stand is supposed to make them a match for Nanoha.
2) It's still canon that raystorm and twinblades are inferior to wingblades and boomerangs as aerial combatants.
Actually, they'd also have 7 for coverage. Remember her first attack on Fate. It was actually a near BVR shot - Fate did not see them, only the flash from the shot warned her (or was that the bullet closing?)
Boomerangs' shot definitely looks to be the most powerful non-IS attack we've seen out of a number, but it still didn't look like it was any more powerful than, say, plasma lancer to me. The numbers are specialists to a fault, even moreso than the Knights, and the only one who can carry their weight in a long-range aerial confrontation is raystorm.
The fact that sensors don't seem too good at detecting Numbers unless they are powering up S class attacks along with the fact that they have visual magnification and infra-red vision suggests that in truth, first contact and thus first shot could easily go to the Numbers - you won't shoot at targets you don't even see.
Which is where Shamal's superiority to Long Arch as AWACS comes in.
However, that has little to do with the real way these characters play their cards. If Signum is your type, she'd have sniped Zest in the back with Storm Falcon, not tried to engage in melee and wind up ruining Laevantein's scabbard (so much for Bow Form, I guess).
The entire point of your scenario is that the numbers are trying to outmaneuver Hayate's squad to score an easy kill on Hayate. I can't imagine a situation where Signum would be any more likely to go for the bow. "Decided we'd throw away even our honor to protect our master," remember?
Also as far as I'm concerned that Signum/Zest battle never happened. Ever. She never caught up with him.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-03, 07:55
Unless I missed something, the only barrier that went up was the one Yuuno used for the transfer. They don't need a barrier to do the sealing; Nanoha did her first few without any.
You need it so as not to attract too much attention, both from regular civilians and the nosy TSAB.
I'm aware that she uses visual illusions. What I'm differentiating between is device-based caster-guided scanning versus conventional-tech scanning.
And I'm disputing that in the magitech world Midchildra, there is much difference.
Lol? The last time I checked the average drone is a lot bigger than RH, but they don't really compare as weapons.
1) They don't take advantage of the well established magical tech base.
2) The drones have their own power source. RH basically sucks off a mage.
3) The drones are cheap throwaways. I'm presuming the TSAB to be using the best equipment they can buy.
This is still a magical girl anime. The devices have the intrinsic advantage of having an actual mage attached. If large tech-operated magitech systems could consistently outperform a mage-device pair, there wouldn't be a show.
One word: Arcenciel. A Magitech system that can outperform mages. QED.
This is also, by the way, the anime where a mage fires under Ground Controlled Intercept conditions! Certainly, Hayate's aiming is not one of the things that consistently outperform magitech systems. :D I could almost picture former Soviet PVO pilots wincing at that scene.Panting only makes anime characters stronger.
That's for girls. For boys it is being beaten half to death :D
Good catch. Though since Hayate's communications were down I don't know how she would have given authorization. Plothole either way.
I think that accidentally or purposefully, this was one of the best decisions Hayate made. IMO, she probably already gave all her subordinates a blank check to release their limiters as necessary. If, if only they took more advantage of this!
I was assuming the numbers have to double team Fate and Nanoha, because that's the only way they've gotten anywhere against them so far. I don't see how you can argue that four 1v1s would end in anything but crushing defeat for the numbers.
I agree with the latter. That's why I'm not going to let them do that. Not if I was directing the effort anyway.
4v4 is more difficult to predict since the numbers are specialists and you'd expect group combat to help make up for their deficiencies as such, but I don't think it's going to make that big a difference. It isn't like Nanoha/Fate and Signum/Vita aren't used to fighting together and covering each other. And Nanoha and Vita are tactics instructors. They aren't total rubes.
Tactics instructors in the TASB. Right. I'd be back in an hour after I finish laughing at this oxymoron...
Actually, forcing a 4 on 4 makes it much more challenging for the aces. As a rule, our aces like individual combat. If they gang up on a target, it is probably because there's only one. There is substantial historical evidence for this.Ep2 Nanoha A's - Fate engages Signum while Yunno engages Vita and Arf does Zafira despite the fact that their opponents are all stronger than they are, and thus cooperation with superior tactics is their best chance of victory. Fortunately Nanoha bailed their butts out before attrition did them in.
Ep5 - they actually outnumber the enemy. Of course, they want one on ones. So much taking advantage of numerical superiority.
Ep7 - again. They get a chance to do a two on one this time. Of course, they go individually.
Ep9 - again. Nanoha does Vita. Fate does Signum.
Ep10-11: OK, I'd admit they were cooperating until Fate was eaten, but I'm sure it is because there is only one Book of Darkness.
Ep12: You will notice that with the exception of the last strike, they are not really cooperating more than they are lining up to take turns on the Defense Program, as if BoD's defense program is a swing on a playground! This is not exactly cooperation, just allocation.
StrikerS Ep5: Nanoha and Fate split up the aerial drones between them, but I don't think they were really cooperating, just allocating. There's a distinction.
Ep7: Vita, Signum and Zafira break up into three.
Ep9: OK, I'd admit that they might have cooperated that time.
Ep11: The two heroines attack the same cluster of aerial drones, and come together because they are suppressed. What are their thoughts? Cooperate? Of course not. Let's split up!
Ep12: Again, I'm sure they are cooperating at all only because there is one target (OK, there are technically two, but since Illusionist is lifting Gunner, they are effectively one).
Ep17: Again, they split up, and split up their ground units as well.
Ep21: At least Nanoha and Vita were in a pair, but what happens when they get into trouble? (You might also note that Vita was killing herself taking on the drones by herself rather than the two of them cooperating and taking the load off each other) They SPLIT UP! (Whatever the f*ck happened to protecting Nanoha...) Fate and Schach. Split up. Signum. Alone.One side clearly has teamwork. The other side is almost pathologically against it (their idea of teamwork is with their Device). Hmm... maybe enough to compensate for individual inferiority? :D
1) I don't see how finishing off a pair of support casters who were so beat-up they could barely stand is supposed to make them a match for Nanoha.
2) It's still canon that raystorm and twinblades are inferior to wingblades and boomerangs as aerial combatants.
I entirely agree they are inferior. That's why I'm not sending them against Nanoha alone.
Boomerangs' shot definitely looks to be the most powerful non-IS attack we've seen out of a number, but it still didn't look like it was any more powerful than, say, plasma lancer to me. The numbers are specialists to a fault, even moreso than the Knights, and the only one who can carry their weight in a long-range aerial confrontation is raystorm.
It is, however, powerful enough to suppress and force them to defend. That buys them the time needed to close, or maybe they were closer in to begin with.
Which is where Shamal's superiority to Long Arch as AWACS comes in.
When was this superiority demonstrated. IIRC, in Ep7, they detected the drones at about the same time (remember Shamal is a h*ll of a lot closer than RF6 HQ) and neither detected Lutecia until she powered up. As for Zest, he never existed as far as they can tell.
And if she was so superior, why wasn't she helping to sort out the decoys from the real thing in Ep11? Vivio is sleeping quite peacefully on the helicopter, and there isn't a whole lot of equipment on the helo so even if Vivio started going into cardiac arrest or whatever, she won't be able to do much. (I'm not going to say "Why did you not just teleport her back and be done with it..." again)
The entire point of your scenario is that the numbers are trying to outmaneuver Hayate's squad to score an easy kill on Hayate. I can't imagine a situation where Signum would be any more likely to go for the bow. "Decided we'd throw away even our honor to protect our master," remember?
You are assuming that Signum will figure out immediately what the Numbers are set up to do. If she is so cognizant of this threat, she would have been the first to say "Aruji Hayate, I must most strongly recommend you get some combat training. We do our best but we cannot always be with you..." Most likely, she'd think it is a conventional engagement and start off with her usual style. By the time she realizes they are headed for Hayate, it will be too late.
Also as far as I'm concerned that Signum/Zest battle never happened. Ever. She never caught up with him.
Stop denying things that are against you. At least rationalize them :heh:
arkhangelsk
2007-09-03, 08:03
Do we necessarily know that the limiter would cause Fate to be detected at a lower ranking? She is an S+, presumably with power reserves to match - do we know that whatever detection method is being used would trigger on Fate's limiter-reduced power output rather than her actual inherent magic level?
(If it does, then it seems to me that a self-releasable limiter would be remarkably useful as a covert-ops stealth tool.)
Considering that Zest didn't register her until she powered up, it sounds like Zest is using passive detection, and cannot accurately evaluate the real abilities of a target.
The Numbers' own sensing abilities seem to be rather variable.We've just seen two of them go down to a backstab by Teana, whereas Nanoha's employment of the same tactic produced minimal results against Fate and Vita. And even C3-unit Otto failed miserably at detecting Shamal and Zafira approaching.
The Numbers have better optics (including by Ep21 the first Optical CCM capability). What I think they lack is a "irradiation warning receiver" (sakki detector) against magic attacks, probably because they don't use magic. That would explain why Vita and Fate know to turn just before the blast and the Numbers don't.
Nevertheless, overall good optics are probably more useful because the primary mode of acquisition still seems to be visual.
Considering that Zest didn't register her until she powered up, it sounds like Zest is using passive detection, and cannot accurately evaluate the real abilities of a target.I'm not quite as sure of that. It might simply be the case that Nanoha and Fate didn't stand out magically until they got into the air and away from the AMFs and ground clutter. The immediate vicinity of TSAB Headquarters could reasonably be expected to be an extremely magically active area.
Besides, if I understood Zest correctly, what he actually said was that the Over-S mages had started to move. It's also possible that he might have picked them up earlier, but assumed they were pinned in the building like Hayate and not reclassified them as threats until they were clearly airborne and coming after his side.
The Numbers have better optics (including by Ep21 the first Optical CCM capability). What I think they lack is a "irradiation warning receiver" (sakki detector) against magic attacks, probably because they don't use magic. That would explain why Vita and Fate know to turn just before the blast and the Numbers don't.I'd expect both a Number and a capable mage to properly ID a Silhouette, given time - the Numbers using thermal signatures where mages would read the magical signature. Nobody appears able to pull it off in a split-second situation, where a glimpse is all you get.
(I wonder if that's why the Aces don't seem interested in using Silhouettes? The more magical power you've got, the harder it'd be to produce a good decoy - how do you convince observers that your Silhouette is Rank SS?)
The Numbers' lack of magical sensitivity would certainly make sense of their failure to dodge Teana's fire. One wonders if proper training would help there - Subaru and Ginga can certainly both do it. Of course, the Nakajima sisters inherited a capable mage's DNA; who knows what genetic base the others came from?
Nevertheless, overall good optics are probably more useful because the primary mode of acquisition still seems to be visual.That may be so, but the Numbers' really good optical features seem to take too much time to use for my liking; in a fast-paced battle, they don't appear any better at seeing through smoke or illusions than regular people.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-03, 10:15
In any case, purely passive detection ought to make it difficult to distinguish between a weak nearby magic emitter and a strong but distant one. (One of the things I remember best from reading a former F-102 interceptor pilot's recollections was the comment that relying on passive IR ranging was an excellent way to find yourself ramming your target by mistake.)
There are, in theory, ways to determine range passively (not including obvious ones like triangulation), such as wave curvature analysis. But Zest is really helped here by the terrain, which is roughly like this:
T
o .(Zest)
w
e
r__________(Ground)
You can estimate likely range just by reading the depression angle of the target.
I get the impression that both a Number and a good mage could properly ID a Silhouette, given time - the Numbers using thermal signatures where mages would read the magical signature. Nobody appears able to do it in a fast-paced situation, where a glimpse is all you get.
I've yet to see a mage discriminate between the real thing and the fake thing.Nanoha, for example, just fired at a false Quattro, and there's only one of them any many seconds to make the discrimination.
To be fair, it is also clear that thermal imaging (or whatever imaging that was) is not particularly effective either against decent illusions.
The Numbers' lack of magical sensitivity would certainly make sense of their failure to dodge Teana's fire. One wonders if proper training would help there - Subaru and Ginga can certainly both do it. Of course, the Nakajima sisters inherited a capable mage's DNA; who knows what genetic base the others came from?
The difference is that the Nakajima sisters are mages (jinzoumadoushi) as well as sentoukijin. The others are just Numbers.
That may be so, but the Numbers' really good optical features seem to take too much time to use for my liking; in a fast-paced battle, they don't appear any better at seeing through smoke or illusions than regular people.
They use thermal sighting, so they should be able to penetrate more smoke than ordinary people.
I suspect what Novu in Ep21 was using is a concealed active narrowbeam near-IR interrogator (doubling as a laser rangefinder, or maybe it was the rangefinder all along, being brought to play in a new purpose?) in his eye. He's flashing each Teana in turn - the one that bounces is the real Teana. It works, but it takes time - so often it is about as quick just to shoot and see what cries out.
There are, in theory, ways to determine range passively (not including obvious ones like triangulation), such as wave curvature analysis. But Zest is really helped here by the terrain, which is roughly like this:
T
o .(Zest)
w
e
r__________(Ground)
You can estimate likely range just by reading the depression angle of the target.True, but Zest still has to have a good idea of what range and contact strength corresponds to what power level before he could make an accurate classification. Maybe he carries the tables in his head, but it seems like a lot of effort if the method isn't reliable in the first place.
I've yet to see a mage discriminate between the real thing and the fake thing.Nanoha, for example, just fired at a false Quattro, and there's only one of them any many seconds to make the discrimination.I doubt that Nanoha cared at all whether that Quattro was real or fake; it seemed like she was making a "hands off Vivio!" statement more than anything.Nanoha did seem to make a judgement call about whether a particular Subaru was real or fake during one of the mock battles earlier, but it's true she might have been just guessing.
The reason I said that was because, if a mage is capable of detecting another's power signature, then I don't see how a Silhouette could appear to have as much magical power as its caster in the face of a decent scan. (Of course, that scan might well take too long in the midst of combat.)
In the end, I think you're right - whether you're a Sentou Kijin or a mage, reconnaissance by fire works just as quickly and well as any other identification method.
The difference is that the Nakajima sisters are mages (jinzoumadoushi) as well as sentoukijin. The others are just Numbers.Yes, of course. The question was whether the others could be trained, if not to elite mage standard, at least well enough for early-warning purposes. Knowing when to block or duck a rear attack would be a rather useful addition to the skillset, after all.
They use thermal sighting, so they should be able to penetrate more smoke than ordinary people.They don't seem really good at it, though - when Teana created a Silhouette to burst out of the smoke of an attack, it fooled Wendi who was on overwatch the whole time.
Yes, of course. The question was whether the others could be trained, if not to elite mage standard, at least well enough for early-warning purposes. Knowing when to block or duck a rear attack would be a rather useful addition to the skillset, after all.
Nope, training won't help. According to the A's booklet (魔法の資質), without a Linker Core, you can't use or even react to magic (I assume they used "react" here meaning something like "sense", since it sure looks like non-mages can still get hit by magic attacks). Linker Cores are also supposed to grow spontaneously, and don't depend on heredity or lineage.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-03, 11:08
True, but Zest still has to have a good idea of what range and contact strength corresponds to what power level before he could make an accurate classification. Maybe he carries the tables in his head, but it seems like a lot of effort if the method isn't reliable in the first place.
He is, on the other hand, a real vet, far more so than our heroines. He probably internalized the algorithm within him through long decades of practice to this day. This will also explain why we don't see a lot of others, even Nanoha and Fate, doing what he does.
The reason I said that was because, if a mage is capable of detecting another's power signature, then I don't see how a Silhouette could be made to appear as Rank SS to a decent scan. (Of course, that scan might well take too long in the midst of combat.)
I think you have just bumped into the reason why Illusion Magic is so rare. You need a reasonable amount of power and even more skill just to cast a reasonable facisimile of yourself. That means a high-ranking mage normally. But a high-ranking mage is too powerful to easily emulate unless he burns off a lot of energy in his illusion so it glows magically like his real power. So it is not too tactically useful for them.
Only a person with a disbalance between power and skill can possibly have the mix of motivation and ability to use Illusion Magic - and that's Teana. The Illusion will have approximately the correct amount of energy to represent the mage without reinforcement, so it looks fairly convincing on the magical front too.
In the end, I think you're right - whether you're a Sentou Kijin or a mage, reconnaissance by fire works just as quickly and well as any other identification method.
The sentoukijin also seem to have energy to spare in this scenario, so recce by fire is fine. If they had less reserves of energy, OCCM or at the very least a more subtle recce-by-tracer (use low powered rounds) would be appropriate.
Yes, of course. The question was whether the others could be trained, if not to elite mage standard, at least well enough for early-warning purposes. Knowing when to block or duck a rear attack would be a rather useful addition to the skillset, after all.
Considering that Illumination Warning is about as good as most mages seem to get unless they prepare, I hold little hope of the magicless Numbers being to do so. I'd bet on using an alternate warning system, such as acoustics or heat detection sensors on their rear.Besides, I think even with Illumination Warning, Skateboard and Twinblades' chances of dodging what happened to them was under 25%. Twinblades was focusing on Teana. Even if she felt the incoming, if she took the blades off Teana's twin blades poorly, she risks getting slashed by one of Teana's blades. And I bet Skateboard was too dazed by what happened to do much - she was just getting up when she got hit. I guess she made the wrong choice in tactics - she should have hit Teana with all the little guided balls around her rather than the main cannon which got detonated...
They don't seem really good at it, though - when Teana created a Silhouette to burst out of the smoke of an attack, it fooled Wendi who was on overwatch the whole time.
They can penetrate smoke. But Teana is good enough for a two band emulation - visual and far-IR, so Wendi would have to use the interrogator, and fast. With only one target, she probably didn't even bother to interrogate - she had no other target in sight, so why not take the shot.
Frankenstein's Clare
2007-09-03, 18:24
And I'm disputing that in the magitech world Midchildra, there is much difference.
Again, show is predicated on the human element being significant. Magitech exists in support of the actual magic, not to replace it.
One word: Arcenciel. A Magitech system that can outperform mages. QED.
Arcenciel is a useless weapon unless you hate the planet your target is on or it's nice enough to come out into orbit for you. Or, say, you have... hmmm... mages to subdue it, lock onto it, and teleport it there (and again notice that those last two functions were handled by Shamal, Arf, and Yuuno, support mages... not the magitech systems on the Arthra. Maybe they couldn't keep up?).
All arcenciel proves is that a very large magitech system can generate more raw power than a mage. An area-effect weapon-of-last-resort is about the only application in which raw output energy equates directly with performance, and there's obviously a minimum-scale efficiency issue going on for them to only use the technology on kilometer-long warships.
I don't know how I can put this more simply- the entire show revolves around mages in superheroic roles who are merely supported by mageless technology. It's the status quo. If a tech with a roomfull of scanner can outperform Shamal with Klarer Wind just because it's larger and more specialized why stop at replacing the support mages? The combat mages should be even easier, they're just weapons. A drone can be a thousand times the size of RH, so of course it'll be more powerful! Dedicated thrusters and inertics, layers of shields, heavy beam weaponry! No toting around those useless squishy organs, no emotional attachment to your enemy's flagship's power source! If the technology is there, why the hell is the TSA employing mages when it could be spending their paychecks on more techs and an automated army?
Because the technology isn't there, because that would make for a damn boring show. If you think the Nanoha writers are bad at tactics, think how bad they'd be trying to write the political or social plot you'd be left with once all the fighting is taken care of by robots. Jail wouldn't be around; the tech would have already left him behind.
I think that accidentally or purposefully, this was one of the best decisions Hayate made. IMO, she probably already gave all her subordinates a blank check to release their limiters as necessary. If, if only they took more advantage of this!
I'm pretty sure that when Chrono did it he had to key a little thing like with arcenciel. You can't just 'give them a blank check.' It's a plothole.
Tactics instructors in the TASB. Right. I'd be back in an hour after I finish laughing at this oxymoron...
This is one of those areas where I take the writers' words for it and then ignore all the evidence to the contrary. It does wonders for my ability to still respect the characters.
Actually, forcing a 4 on 4 makes it much more challenging for the aces. As a rule, our aces like individual combat. If they gang up on a target, it is probably because there's only one. There is substantial historical evidence for this.Ep2 Nanoha A's - Fate engages Signum while Yunno engages Vita and Arf does Zafira despite the fact that their opponents are all stronger than they are, and thus cooperation with superior tactics is their best chance of victory. Fortunately Nanoha bailed their butts out before attrition did them in.
Ep5 - they actually outnumber the enemy. Of course, they want one on ones. So much taking advantage of numerical superiority.
Ep7 - again. They get a chance to do a two on one this time. Of course, they go individually.
Ep9 - again. Nanoha does Vita. Fate does Signum.
Ep10-11: OK, I'd admit they were cooperating until Fate was eaten, but I'm sure it is because there is only one Book of Darkness.
Ep12: You will notice that with the exception of the last strike, they are not really cooperating more than they are lining up to take turns on the Defense Program, as if BoD's defense program is a swing on a playground! This is not exactly cooperation, just allocation.
Three points on A's:
They hadn't undergone much tactical instruction at this point.
Fate and Nanoha had the secondary (if not primary) goal of building rapport with their enemies. You kind of lose that moral high ground when you double-team people. Chrono and Yuuno didn't like the way they broke it up into duels in 4 either, but they were running their own show.
D-program fight: Well, at least Shamal was coordinating it. That's better than they usually do.
StrikerS Ep5: Nanoha and Fat split up the aerial drones between them, but I don't think they were really cooperating, just allocating. There's a distinction.
But in this context allocation makes sense. They're overwhelmingly superior to the drones; assigning sectors allows them to avoid wasting effort on the same targets and keeps them out of each other's lines of fire.
Ep7: Vita, Signum and Zafira break up into three.
Again, they're overwhelmingly superior to their targets. Sticking together would just slow them down. Though episode 7 tactics were stupid for other reasons that have been well-described in this thread.
Ep9: OK, I'd admit that they might have cooperated that time.
And who says miracles don't happen?
Ep11: The two heroines attack the same cluster of aerial drones, and come together because they are suppressed. What are their thoughts? Cooperate? Of course not. Let's split up!
Because one of them could deal with the situation and there was a pressing need elsewhere.
Ep12: Again, I'm sure they are cooperating at all only because there is one target (OK, there are technically two, but since Illusionist is lifting Gunner, they are effectively one).
They herded them into that pincer pretty neatly though.
Ep17: Again, they split up, and split up their ground units as well.
Sorry, I'm still stuck at the part where they surrended their weapons.
Ep21: At least Nanoha and Vita were in a pair, but what happens when they get into trouble? (You might also note that Vita was killing herself taking on the drones by herself rather than the two of them cooperating and taking the load off each other) They SPLIT UP! (Whatever the f*ck happened to protecting Nanoha...) Fate and Schach. Split up. Signum. Alone. One side clearly has teamwork. The other side is almost pathologically against it (their idea of teamwork is with their Device). Hmm... maybe enough to compensate for individual inferiority? :D
Because the writers conveniently assigned them one distant critical objective per team member. They can't help it if the circumstances always demand dramatic individual action.
When was this superiority demonstrated. IIRC, in Ep7, they detected the drones at about the same time (remember Shamal is a h*ll of a lot closer than RF6 HQ) and neither detected Lutecia until she powered up. As for Zest, he never existed as far as they can tell.
Call me crazy, but I suspect that RF6 HQ is integrating scanning data from a lot of sources, not trying to cover the whole hemisphere with one scanner in the actual HQ. That'd be pretty impractical. And again, I presuppose the superiority of mage-device pairs on the grounds that they wouldn't use them if a drone with a sensor package feeding data back to a supercomputer somewhere was superior. In the actual series the only evidence I've seen is that Shamal did the teleport lock on the D-program core instead of the Arthra as already mentioned.
And if she was so superior, why wasn't she helping to sort out the decoys from the real thing in Ep11? Vivio is sleeping quite peacefully on the helicopter, and there isn't a whole lot of equipment on the helo so even if Vivio started going into cardiac arrest or whatever, she won't be able to do much. (I'm not going to say "Why did you not just teleport her back and be done with it..." again)
Union regs. All helicopter pilots must make at least one flight a week with at least two passengers both ways. Trust me, you do not want to mess with Transport Workers of Midchilda.
And as long as we're arguing about device capabilities, I'm pretty sure Shamal could stop a heart attack with her rings. Healing specialist and all that.
You are assuming that Signum will figure out immediately what the Numbers are set up to do. If she is so cognizant of this threat, she would have been the first to say "Aruji Hayate, I must most strongly recommend you get some combat training. We do our best but we cannot always be with you..." Most likely, she'd think it is a conventional engagement and start off with her usual style. By the time she realizes they are headed for Hayate, it will be too late.
Hayate is cognizant of her own limitations; why wouldn't Signum, captain of her bodyguard and a warrior with about- and this is a rough figure here- a billion times her experience be? Signum is dedicated to protecting Hayate, so she sticks with her in a group fight, and when the enemy are still at a distance she attacks at a distance. I don't think this is out of character for her.
Signum may like a one-on-one duel but the D-program smackdown showed she's more than willing to join a firing line when it's necessary.
Stop denying things that are against you. At least rationalize them :heh:
That battle- or rather, non-event- was a travesty. This has nothing to do with this petty argument, and everything to do with me hating the writing team for slightly different reasons than you.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-03, 20:39
Again, show is predicated on the human element being significant. Magitech exists in support of the actual magic, not to replace it.
Yes, but it is still a world where magitech is dominant much more than the norm.
Arcenciel is a useless weapon unless you hate the planet your target is on or it's nice enough to come out into orbit for you.
But it has power. You just want something that outperforms mages consistently. There you go.
Or, say, you have... hmmm... mages to subdue it, lock onto it, and teleport it there (and again notice that those last two functions were handled by Shamal, Arf, and Yuuno, support mages... not the magitech systems on the Arthra. Maybe they couldn't keep up?).
Or maybe they aren't flexible enough. I suspect the transport systems on Asura must have themselves as either the To or the From. It'd be bad to transport the BoD into the Asura, even briefly, if it'd even fit in the teleporter room.
and there's obviously a minimum-scale efficiency issue going on for them to only use the technology on kilometer-long warships.
How big is Asura anyway?
I don't know how I can put this more simply- the entire show revolves around mages in superheroic roles who are merely supported by mageless technology. It's the status quo. If a tech with a roomfull of scanner can outperform Shamal with Klarer Wind just because it's larger and more specialized why stop at replacing the support mages? The combat mages should be even easier, they're just weapons.
I think the main thing the show is trying to portray is that the flexibility of humans is still useful, even in the world of magitech, not that they are better than huge machines in their single roles.
A drone can be a thousand times the size of RH, so of course it'll be more powerful! Dedicated thrusters and inertics, layers of shields, heavy beam weaponry! No toting around those useless squishy organs, no emotional attachment to your enemy's flagship's power source! If the technology is there, why the hell is the TSA employing mages when it could be spending their paychecks on more techs and an automated army?
I think the two things magitech hadn't been able to do so far is build small (human-sized) Linker Cores of equivalent power density and flexibility. The sentoukijin, however, suggest that even this is starting to come to an end. They are really not anamolies, but a trend of the times that the TSAB has been trying to delay in accordance to some warped ethics.
I'm pretty sure that when Chrono did it he had to key a little thing like with arcenciel. You can't just 'give them a blank check.' It's a plothole.
That was Hayate's limiters, which seem to be trickier to remove than the others. A sign of how little many people trust Hayate?
Chrono is also a "by-the-book" guy, so he's going to handle the limiters like the regs say - only when necessary, with explicit consent for each case. Hayate is a people person, so she hands down the authorizations.
Three points on A's:
They hadn't undergone much tactical instruction at this point.
True, but this shows what their instincts are like.
Fate and Nanoha had the secondary (if not primary) goal of building rapport with their enemies. You kind of lose that moral high ground when you double-team people. Chrono and Yuuno didn't like the way they broke it up into duels in 4 either, but they were running their own show.
They agreed to it so fast they were barely disagreeing. Chrono kind of likes one to ones as well.
D-program fight: Well, at least Shamal was coordinating it. That's better than they usually do.
She was telling them to take turns. That's some advanced coordination!
Because the writers conveniently assigned them one distant critical objective per team member. They can't help it if the circumstances always demand dramatic individual action.
I'm not saying that sometimes, splitting up isn't a good or at least adequate decision. However, when you notice that they split up almost all the time, whether it is good or bad for them to do so, it is hard to avoid the simple conclusion that they like splitting up and they are more used to splitting up than cooperating.
Call me crazy, but I suspect that RF6 HQ is integrating scanning data from a lot of sources, not trying to cover the whole hemisphere with one scanner in the actual HQ. That'd be pretty impractical.
I'd agree that's what they are doing, but it would seem that Shamal is still the closest sensing unit we know of. Sensor coverage is sparse in that area - you would note they don't get the visuals they normally do, only blips. (I don't even want to think of how they actually achieve the anime troupe of showing targets at perfect angles on the viewscreen).
And again, I presuppose the superiority of mage-device pairs on the grounds that they wouldn't use them if a drone with a sensor package feeding data back to a supercomputer somewhere was superior. In the actual series the only evidence I've seen is that Shamal did the teleport lock on the D-program core instead of the Arthra as already mentioned.
That's because she could and she was so much closer. Why try for complicated and unpracticed GCI when autonomous acquisition is available? Unlike Hayate, Shamal is not used to working under GCI.
Anyway, your logic can be turned on its head. If mobile mages were superior in this, they won't be building expensive supercomputers and relying on static sensor nets.
And as long as we're arguing about device capabilities, I'm pretty sure Shamal could stop a heart attack with her rings. Healing specialist and all that.
The abilities of healing magic are finite. Shamal definitely did not make Nanoha good as new after that little accident she had when she was 12.
Hayate is cognizant of her own limitations; why wouldn't Signum, captain of her bodyguard and a warrior with about- and this is a rough figure here- a billion times her experience be? Signum is dedicated to protecting Hayate, so she sticks with her in a group fight, and when the enemy are still at a distance she attacks at a distance. I don't think this is out of character for her.
The problem is that they are cognizant of the limitation, but no one is cognizant of the danger. There's a big difference.
That battle- or rather, non-event- was a travesty. This has nothing to do with this petty argument, and everything to do with me hating the writing team for slightly different reasons than you.
I agree it was pretty lame. When they did the Hiryu Issen I was thinking of morning exercise programs! But it was canon. Accept it.
Frankenstein's Clare
2007-09-03, 21:50
Yes, but it is still a world where magitech is dominant much more than the norm.
Of course. But a talented mage with magitech augmentation outperforms magitech alone.
But it has power. You just want something that outperforms mages consistently. There you go.
No, I want magitech in general to not consistently outperform mages. Because then it would replace them. And there would be no show.
Or maybe they aren't flexible enough. I suspect the transport systems on Asura must have themselves as either the To or the From. It'd be bad to transport the BoD into the Asura, even briefly, if it'd even fit in the teleporter room.
And see, that's the sort of thing that makes it balanced. You can teleport without a mage, but only with a massive power source, a lot of computing power, and limitations on the system that still leave mages plenty of room to shine. You get your cool gadgets and your dashing heroines.
How big is Asura anyway? Could probably try to get an approximate size for the Defense Program monster, compare that to the arcenciel projectile, and then compare the arcenciel projectile to the Arthra. You know, assuming the artists cared enough to try for that kind of consistency when they drew that scene.
I think the main thing the show is trying to portray is that the flexibility of humans is still useful, even in the world of magitech, not that they are better than huge machines in their single roles.
I think the two things magitech hadn't been able to do so far is build small (human-sized) Linker Cores of equivalent power density and flexibility. The sentoukijin, however, suggest that even this is starting to come to an end. They are really not anamolies, but a trend of the times that the TSAB has been trying to delay in accordance to some warped ethics.
See, I tend to see the combat cyborgs as representative of the limits of magitech. Scaglietti is trying to create a completely automated army, but plain magitech just can't match good mages so he ends up essentially just building mages with the cyborgs, who share in the advantages and disadvantages of both mages and pure magitech.
They agreed to it so fast they were barely disagreeing. Chrono kind of likes one to ones as well.
Well look at it from Chrono's point of view. He thinks that all he has to do is let them play around and he gets to nab the BoD's master and put an end to the whole thing right there, regardless of how the battle goes.
She was telling them to take turns. That's some advanced coordination!
Yeah yeah it's no Tagar.
I'm not saying that sometimes, splitting up isn't a good or at least adequate decision. However, when you notice that they split up almost all the time, whether it is good or bad for them to do so, it is hard to avoid the simple conclusion that they like splitting up and they are more used to splitting up than cooperating.
Yes, even from my point of view having to write an individual excuse for virtually every combat scene in the show seems like just a different way of proving your point.
I'd agree that's what they are doing, but it would seem that Shamal is still the closest sensing unit we know of. Sensor coverage is sparse in that area - you would note they don't get the visuals they normally do, only blips. (I don't even want to think of how they actually achieve the anime troupe of showing targets at perfect angles on the viewscreen).
Magic. Come on, scrying has been part of fantasy forever, pools and mirrors and crystal balls and all that jazz. It's even in Yuuno's name. System's probably just a cheap visual-only magitech knockoff of Shamal's portal, no telegroping function or intensive scan or anything.
Anyway, your logic can be turned on its head. If mobile mages were superior in this, they won't be building expensive supercomputers and relying on static sensor nets.
The sensor net has obvious advantages; it can be on 24/7, not just during a mission (so you get those ALARTs) and can be operated by people with no magical ability. It'd be impractical to try to handle all functions with mages; there just isn't enough talent to go around (look how stretched the mages-only infantry of their military are by one guy with his own manufacturing infrastructure). But in spite of these advantages they continue to train support mages in scanning techniques. I choose to believe this is because they either exceed or complement the mageless technology, with exceed being more likely in the cases of very talented support mages like Shamal.
The abilities of healing magic are finite. Shamal definitely did not make Nanoha good as new after that little accident she had when she was 12.
Those magic-related chronic health problems are tricky; she couldn't heal the damage the Book was inflicting on Hayate either. But closing wounds while rejuvenating (rather than tiring) the patient is still pretty impressive. A lot more impressive than getting someone's heart to do what it's meant to do in the first place, something we still achieve by the none-to-subtle method of running current through it (and before the pacemaker lobby comes down on me: okay, we're pretty subtle about it. But it's still current).
I agree it was pretty lame. When they did the Hiryu Issen I was thinking of morning exercise programs! But it was canon. Accept it.
No. The scene was interpretive. Interpretive. It was actually a totally badass fight, but they represented it. With colorful dance.
I mean come on. You can't ask me to accept that hiryu issen can counter plasma smasher when Signum's just playing around, but while she's dead serious AND unisoned with Rein it can be blown away by a floor fan. Just typing that made me angry. I'm dropping this subject.
Crap how did I miss this until now?
Of course. But a talented mage with magitech augmentation outperforms magitech alone.
Talented mages are clearly very rare though. Think crossbows vs. Longbow, sure the longbow is superior in a number of ways, but any half starved peasant with a few days training can fire the crossbow and kill the knight or bowmen that’s spent has his life training.
Even if the Mage/magitech combo is superior (arguable) the sheer mass that one could unleash with the later could easily counter that advantage IMO.
No, I want magitech in general to not consistently outperform mages. Because then it would replace them. And there would be no show.Expect it clearly already dose, in terms of maximum raw power among other things. What you want has nothing to do with it since we already have clear examples that what you want simply isn’t the case. It also wouldn't totally kill the show, the show might be different (the mages wouldn't be the be all end all superheroes they are for example), but it wouldn't kill it.
And see, that's the sort of thing that makes it balanced. You can teleport without a mage, but only with a massive power source, a lot of computing power, and limitations on the system that still leave mages plenty of room to shine. You get your cool gadgets and your dashing heroines.
Expect I don’t think that’s the case, at least the site to site bit, I seem to recall them just beaming people to the surface at least once. Then again teleporting in general is often a huge cop-out used unevenly and inconsistently and often as a weak plot device, I acutally like that it’s being deemphasized lately. Introducing teleporters on to human ships in SG-1 for instance was IMO a mistake, as all it did was force them to find ways to make them fail constantly so you had an actual element of danger for the main characters when a ship was around.
Letting mages just snap their fingers and teleport around at will would be even worse as no battle would ever be really tense as the second it looked like they might lose they could just teleport away.
See, I tend to see the combat cyborgs as representative of the limits of magitech. Scaglietti is trying to create a completely automated army, but plain magitech just can't match good mages so he ends up essentially just building mages with the cyborgs, who share in the advantages and disadvantages of both mages and pure magitech.
The Cyborgs aren’t really mages to me and even if you want argue about it the fact is they can basiclly be built to order and pop out as almost equal in power to the best mages the TSAB has to offer should tell you something. That’s a pretty huge advantage and if you dedicated real resources to mass production of the cyborg or something like them human Mages wouldn’t stand a chance. I also don’t consider the cyborgs being adopted purely as a result of any magitech limitations, there are things that an 8 foot tall walking knife draw simply can’t do.
Also no offense but the design of allot of the drones sucked. If the Type-2 for instance had been built for pure speed and long range BVR combat they could have done ALLOT more damage. Mages in flight are not that fast (>always mach 1 IMO) aircraft could easily out fly and out climb them (they wind wiping their clothes indicates they probably simply breath oxygen from the air which would limit them to 10 to 15,000 feet tops). Instead for some bizarre reason all the drones weapons seem to be limited short range within visual systems that forces them to get close to enemy mages.
Magic. Come on, scrying has been part of fantasy forever, pools and mirrors and crystal balls and all that jazz. It's even in Yuuno's name. System's probably just a cheap visual-only magitech knockoff of Shamal's portal, no telegroping function or intensive scan or anything.
Yeah I mean just because we don’t see it being done doesn’t mean we shouldn’t instantly assume it’s widely used and extremely powerful compared to normal sensors… Leap of logic anyone?
The sensor net has obvious advantages; it can be on 24/7, not just during a mission (so you get those ALARTs) and can be operated by people with no magical ability. It'd be impractical to try to handle all functions with mages; there just isn't enough talent to go around (look how stretched the mages-only infantry of their military are by one guy with his own manufacturing infrastructure). But in spite of these advantages they continue to train support mages in scanning techniques. I choose to believe this is because they either exceed or complement the mageless technology, with exceed being more likely in the cases of very talented support mages like Shamal.
So the sensor net IS superior as you just listed at least two reason it kicks a mages asses. I myself chose to believe the later is trained because sometimes you might need to function you know OUTSIDE the sensor net… in which case yeah a mage is superior, but only via lack of competition.
Those magic-related chronic health problems are tricky; she couldn't heal the damage the Book was inflicting on Hayate either. But closing wounds while rejuvenating (rather than tiring) the patient is still pretty impressive. A lot more impressive than getting someone's heart to do what it's meant to do in the first place, something we still achieve by the none-to-subtle method of running current through it (and before the pacemaker lobby comes down on me: okay, we're pretty subtle about it. But it's still current).
Closing a simple wound is nothing a pressure bandage couldn’t do, or better yet a pressure bandage with a modern artificial clotting agent. Healing magic is clearly ineffectual against truly significant trauma as shown repeatedly. I don’t count being stabbed with a knife arm as “magic-related” damage, and yet they still didn’t think Nanoha would even be able to walk and she appears to have been forced to undertake a brutal and decidedly 20th century physical therapy program to do so… I doubt Shamal could do much more then a modern medic with even a simple gunshot wound which could easily pierce and damage multi organs or cause death by blood loss within minutes.
Plus modern medicine is getting creepy (http://www.wired.com/medtech/genetics/news/2005/09/68962) and hurtling rapidly toward the realm of science “fiction”.Give it 30 years and we might all re-growing arms after popping a few pills, there is no reason beside pointless squeamishness a society as advanced as the TSAB in many areas couldn’t have medical tech WAY more effective then anything magic has ever shown.
Mirificus
2007-09-07, 18:54
Now that episode 20 is subbed, I was taking another look at RF6's and Jail's deployments.
RF6 has encountered eleven of the combat cyborgs so far. Five of them were spotted in the abandoned city. They're attacking the Ground Force HQ but are only moving as fast as Ginga can skate. If the combat cyborgs have been named consecutively (which may not necessarily be true) then six of them are unaccounted for.
RF6 has also spotted Zest and Agito heading towards the Ground Force HQ but is unaware that Lutecia is also moving through the abandoned city.
I'm still not convinced that sending the forwards to the abandoned city was the best idea. With their relatively slow movement rate, the numbers moving through the abandoned city are probably the last enemy force that needs to be dealt with. With the way Fate split off there, it appeared as though Jail's lab is somewhere in between where the Aces deployed and the Cradle.
I kind of threw together the start of an operations order for episode 20-21 to see what it would look like.
Riot Force 6
CAPITAL CITY, MIDCHILDA
Operations Order
Time Zone Used Throughout the Order: Local
I've given up trying to give an accurate task organization as the command relationships, attachments and actual organization are so unclear.
Task Organization:
TF1
-Hayate/Nanoha/Vita/Capital Defense Aerial Mages
TF2
-Fate/Schach/Acous
TF3
-Forwards
Bn Trp
-Signum
1. SITUATION:
a. Enemy Forces and Battlefield Conditions.
(1) Weather and light data.
Unavailable.
(2) Enemy Forces
(a) Composition/Order of Battle: The enemy force is composed of the Cradle, a squad-sized unit of combat cyborgs and an unknown number of drones. Enemy is capable of employing nuclear munition equivalents once the Cradle has finished deploying. Enemy can gain local air superiority during offensive operations once launched and has the ability to use drones and combat cyborgs in a CAS role.
(b) Recent Activities. The enemy’s attack to destroy the Einhejars was successful. The enemy is deploying the Cradle and has local air superiority over the Midchilda Capital. A squad-sized unit of combat cyborgs and aerial mages are believed to be launching an attack on the Ground Force HQ.
(c) Strength. The enemy is estimated to be at nearly full strength in equipment and personnel. The combat cyborg unit is composed of approximately 13 combat cyborgs. It is supported by 1 aerial mage, 1 unison device and 1 summoner.
(d) Current Location. The Cradle is being deployed over the capital and is defended by drones. Five combat cyborgs are moving through the abandoned city to begin an attack against the Ground Force HQ.
(e) Enemy’s most probable course of action.
(f) Enemy’s most dangerous course of action.
(g) Weaknesses.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-07, 20:09
Using an order format meant for battalions for that squad sized combat force is your first mistake. By the way, it is clearly sunny, the visibility is at least fair, and it is daytime, and I think the battle will be over either way before dusk.
By the way, wouldn't "Battalion Troops" be Hayate rather than Signum?
Mirificus
2007-09-07, 20:59
Using an order format meant for battalions for that squad sized combat force is your first mistake.
The problem though is that they aren't being given squad-sized tasks. Squads aren't supposed to be used alone. At the very least, they would normally have their neighboring squads to act in concert with since they aren't meant to be a tactically viable subunit. RF6 on the other hand is being used in three separate locations at once that are far enough apart that they won't be able to provide any mutual support.
By the way, it is clearly sunny, the visibility is at least fair, and it is daytime, and I think the battle will be over either way before dusk.
Right. That should be straightforward.
By the way, wouldn't "Battalion Troops" be Hayate rather than Signum?
I guess I was thinking more about how they were actually employed. Otherwise, I would keep the Forwards together and at least two of the Aces together. Breaking them down as Stars/Lightning/Long Arch makes the least sense.
I got a really bad headache when I was rewriting it so it turned out rather sketchy.
Frankenstein's Clare
2007-09-07, 22:21
Yeah I mean just because we don’t see it being done doesn’t mean we shouldn’t instantly assume it’s widely used and extremely powerful compared to normal sensors… Leap of logic anyone?
We were talking about a capability of the normal sensors we see all the time.
The Cyborgs aren’t really mages to me and even if you want argue about it the fact is they can basiclly be built to order and pop out as almost equal in power to the best mages the TSAB has to offer should tell you something. That’s a pretty huge advantage and if you dedicated real resources to mass production of the cyborg or something like them human Mages wouldn’t stand a chance. I also don’t consider the cyborgs being adopted purely as a result of any magitech limitations, there are things that an 8 foot tall walking knife draw simply can’t do.
I already told you what they tell me, which is that magitech is still playing catch-up. The cyborgs represent the best-attempt of Nanohaverse mad science to create machines that can equal mages... and what are they in the end? Humans who use magitech augmentation. The same as mages. You say they can be 'built to order' but the fact is that they still have that human component and need to be grown. From birth. None of them look to be any younger than Subaru which gives us... a 15-year minimum production time. Whoops. No instant army there. The quality is anything but even too. I think the most dramatic comparison would be Surfboard vs Boomerangs since they fill pretty similar midrange combat roles but are on the opposite ends of the power scale. Boomerangs did say she got a few years of extra work or whatever, but this only reinforces the point that they're resource-intensive custom jobs, unsuitable for mass-production.
And for the real kicker- they can't be built without relics! There's a lostech artifact, about as black a box as you can find- and you do have to find them- right at the center of the whole system! Yep, there are going to be armies of these things running around any day now.
And they still can't compare to the best mages. Hell, only four of them can even handle real aerial combat. And this despite the fact that they're artisan-craft products whose creation is attended to personally by Scaglietti, once-in-a-generation engineering genius and general benefactor of the "one mad scientist moves faster than an entire generation of normal scientists" trope.
So the sensor net IS superior as you just listed at least two reason it kicks a mages asses. I myself chose to believe the later is trained because sometimes you might need to function you know OUTSIDE the sensor net… in which case yeah a mage is superior, but only via lack of competition.
Do you understand that there's a difference between one system having blanket superiority, and each have advantages that make both worth maintaining? As Ark has already pointed out by the inversion of my logic the mageless sensors must have some sort of advantage or they wouldn't bother using them. Your suggestion, though, that the only advantage on the mages' part is their ability to 'extend the net' is ridiculous- a drone could do the same thing without the years of specialized training.
Which is what my whole argument comes down to. That the TSA bothers to field mages when magitech is obviously very viable and has some definite advantages over the mages suggests there are performance benefits on the part of the mages as well. And because the advantages of the mageless systems are endurance and ease-of-use, I think it likely the mages get the power end of the spectrum. I'll admit there are other possible advantages (including the possibility of subtle distinctions we viewers just don't get enough technical info to grasp), but the harder-to-use, short-term effect being the stronger feels right.
And while the TSA obviously does have a fair degree of organizational opposition to some types of technology which it avoids, they have no problems with the magitech already in general use and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't use it to replace mages if it were feasible to do so. Which is what this argument is about. Or was about, anyway.
Closing a simple wound is nothing a pressure bandage couldn’t do, or better yet a pressure bandage with a modern artificial clotting agent. Healing magic is clearly ineffectual against truly significant trauma as shown repeatedly. I don’t count being stabbed with a knife arm as “magic-related” damage, and yet they still didn’t think Nanoha would even be able to walk and she appears to have been forced to undertake a brutal and decidedly 20th century physical therapy program to do so… I doubt Shamal could do much more then a modern medic with even a simple gunshot wound which could easily pierce and damage multi organs or cause death by blood loss within minutes.
I can just as easily say I think she could just wave her hands and your gunshot wound would be gone. We've seen non-life-threatening wounds cured slowly (Yuuno) and instantly (Shamal), and we know magic can't handle long-term stuff, such as Hayate's progressive nerve degeneration or whatever she had and Nanoha's rehabilitation. Never seen magic applied directly to a critical injury, unless I've missed something in 20 and on.
But for the sake of clarity, yes, I had taken Nanoha's debilitation to be more a product of her chronic magic overuse than the actual drone attack, which upon review of 9 appears to be totally incorrect. Though I'm curious if it might have also been an issue based on that 'could no longer fly' line. I could see it cutting down her maneuverability and forcing her to abandon the ankle-wings, but not grounding her altogether...
Plus modern medicine is getting creepy (http://www.wired.com/medtech/genetics/news/2005/09/68962) and hurtling rapidly toward the realm of science “fiction”.Give it 30 years and we might all re-growing arms after popping a few pills, there is no reason beside pointless squeamishness a society as advanced as the TSAB in many areas couldn’t have medical tech WAY more effective then anything magic has ever shown.
I propose: Midchildan civilization owes its most advanced technology (by which I pretty much mean 'their giant dimension-traversing warships') to the 'magi' in 'magitech,' so their technological growth is stunted in areas where magic is of lesser use than pure tech.
Makes sense, right? After the revolution they threw everything behind a single technological route that has pretty broad application, but not broad enough that they don't miss out on some stuff.
And seriously, scifi gets boring if it's too hard. If you've seen one AI-run nanotech-infused conversion-powered Kurzweilian fantasyland you've seen them all. I don't see why they can't remove from the setting something that might be feasible in reality the same way they add things that are completely fantastic (magic, the TSA in general). I think you're placing too much importance on accurate prognostication of technological development and not enough on an author's perogative to write in the setting they want. StrikerS technological tree may be too lopsided for you to easily accept, and that's fine, but recognize that any futuristic setting's will be lopsided to some degree or another. A lot of stuff we're excited about today might never pan out.
And for the real kicker- they can't be built without relics! There's a lostech artifact, about as black a box as you can find- and you do have to find them- right at the center of the whole system! Yep, there are going to be armies of these things running around any day now.
Forget everything else where the hell is that shown exactly I don’t recall that at all, I didn’t even think anyone knew about the Relics until just before the series began.
Do you understand that there's a difference between one system having blanket superiority, and each have advantages that make both worth maintaining? As Ark has already pointed out by the inversion of my logic the mageless sensors must have some sort of advantage or they wouldn't bother using them. Your suggestion, though, that the only advantage on the mages' part is their ability to 'extend the net' is ridiculous- a drone could do the same thing without the years of specialized training.
The same sort of drone that they seemed so stunned to encounter early in the series…
And yeah IMO a drone could do it and probably cheaper, faster, and likely better the TSAB is just too stupid and set in its ways to do so. They could absolutely learn something from how Jail operates, like magic not being the best solution to everything. If nothing else I’d hope this entire incident gets their asses to at least consider alterative methods to “MORE MAGIC!!!”
Which is what my whole argument comes down to. That the TSAbothers to field mages when magitech is obviously very viable and has some definite advantages over the mages suggests there are performance benefits on the part of the mages as well. Mages have high firepower and are very mobile as infantry and very little in sci-fi can touch the top teir ones, but they’re still effectively just highly mobile infantry and they can’t do everything or even allot of what they’re trying to do very well at all. Mages have their place, but not being crammed into all these roles the TSAB is trying to use them in that they just aren’t suited for.
And because the advantages of the mageless systems are endurance and ease-of-use, I think it likely the mages get the power end of the spectrum. I'll admit there are other possible advantages (including the possibility of subtle distinctions we viewers just don't get enough technical info to grasp), but the harder-to-use, short-term effect being the stronger feels right. I disagreed with this, not least of all because you’re probably judging this “power” off the likes of Nanoha and friends who are by all indications freakish anomalies. The average mages seems barely able to handle simple drones and if the forwards are any indication allot of them probably can’t even fly. Sure taking down the handful of super top tier guys might be somewhat tough, but you can probably pwn 99% of the them easily with magitech and a bunch of poorly trained peons.
And while the TSA obviously does have a fair degree of organizational opposition to some types of technology which it avoids, they have no problems with the magitech already in general use and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't use it to replace mages if it were feasible to do so. Which is what this argument is about. Or was about, anyway.
Which is why no one in the Air Force has any problems with UAVs and in fact welcomes them with open arms and fights to be assigned to them… oh wait. Basiclly the issue is this the TSAB is full of mages, if they replaces mages with Magitech the former are out of work and now WAY less important and prestigious… do the math. Would you recommend your company buy a bunch of robots that could put you out of a job for instance? :rolleyes:
I can just as easily say I think she could just wave her hands and your gunshot wound would be gone. We've seen non-life-threatening wounds cured slowly (Yuuno) and instantly (Shamal), and we know magic can't handle long-term stuff, such as Hayate's progressive nerve degeneration or whatever she had and Nanoha's rehabilitation. Never seen magic applied directly to a critical injury, unless I've missed something in 20 and on.
But for the sake of clarity, yes, I had taken Nanoha's debilitation to be more a product of her chronic magic overuse than the actual drone attack, which upon review of 9 appears to be totally incorrect. Though I'm curious if it might have also been an issue based on that 'could no longer fly' line. I could see it cutting down her maneuverability and forcing her to abandon the ankle-wings, but not grounding her altogether...
It seems real simple to me Nanoha got slashed up by an invisible drone and there wasn’t even magic VAUGELY involved it was a good old fashion shanking. The next scene is her lying in a hospital bed bandaged all to hell and apparently on life support…then her struggling to even get into a wheelchair. You honestly think that if magic could heal major trauma for shit that would have happened? You sure as hell wouldn’t need a hospital and life support if it could! As far as I'm concerned any argument that Nanoha-verse healing magic is good for anything besides fixing a cut while chopping vegetables went out the window with that scene, also wasn't Erio walking around with an arm in a sling for awhile after the attack on GFHQ?
I propose: Midchildan civilization owes its most advanced technology (by which I pretty much mean 'their giant dimension-traversing warships') to the 'magi' in 'magitech,' so their technological growth is stunted in areas where magic is of lesser use than pure tech.
Makes sense, right? After the revolution they threw everything behind a single technological route that has pretty broad application, but not broad enough that they don't miss out on some stuff.
And seriously, scifi gets boring if it's too hard. If you've seen one AI-run nanotech-infused conversion-powered Kurzweilian fantasyland you've seen them all. I don't see why they can't remove from the setting something that might be feasible in reality the same way they add things that are completely fantastic (magic, the TSA in general). I think you're placing too much importance on accurate prognostication of technological development and not enough on an author's perogative to write in the setting they want. StrikerS technological tree may be too lopsided for you to easily accept, and that's fine, but recognize that any futuristic setting's will be lopsided to some degree or another. A lot of stuff we're excited about today might never pan out.Expect that their tech base can already produce stuff like clones, cyborgs, and artificial humans. So something like growing new organs and tissue for transplant should be child’s play, so really it shouldn’t have mattered WHAT happened to Nanoha, even if she had spine damage just grow up some new cells for transplant. But I bet it’s outlawed because it might be dangerous… Wonder how many people the TSAB lets stay horribly maimed because of their “gene engineering is teh evil!!!” stance. Jail speech acutally came off to me as having some serious bite to it in this regard, sure the dudes crazy, but I think his point about oppressing science to “maintain order” might have a ring of truth too it.
So really It's not like this stuff isn't already around it's just totally unevenly or not all used to anything like it's logical potential.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-08, 04:56
It seems real simple to me Nanoha got slashed up by an invisible drone and there wasn’t even magic VAUGELY involved it was a good old fashion shanking. The next scene is her lying in a hospital bed bandaged all to hell and apparently on life support…then her struggling to even get into a wheelchair. You honestly think that if magic could heal major trauma for shit that would have happened? You sure as hell wouldn’t need a hospital and life support if it could! As far as I'm concerned any argument that Nanoha-verse healing magic is good for anything besides fixing a cut while chopping vegetables went out the window with that scene, also wasn't Erio walking around with an arm in a sling for awhile after the attack on GFHQ?
True. It actually makes sense for magic to be only marginally effective in healing heavy injuries. Generally magical healing involves speeding up your own healing, which is fine for light wounds, but how can you speed up an injury that will take months to heal to something instant.
To be fair to TSAB medicine, however, for someone who had a fracture, he sure healed fast. It wasn't instant but he was back practicing with Signum well within a week. Considering it usually takes a few days just for the bones to begin (weeks to remineralized and over a year to be back at near full strength) getting back together, it is probable that magic did work and he's just in the sling to give a bit more time to his arm to heal in peace.
I suspect Nanoha's injuries are actually not local. If it was just a spinal cut, it will affect her ability to walk but not to fly (besides, people seem to use a separate magical-powered nervous system to move while transformed - see Hayate moving around quite well as soon as she transformed). Considering what everyone said about magic, it seems likely that she had a "core accident" at around the same time of the shanking which did most of the hard to repair damage - say she detected a presence, decided to engage, but the core started to fail, the stealth droid shanks her, so she forces to core to charge and fire, and the core thus got wrecked. Or maybe she was concentrating on magic when she got shanked, and the shock was the last straw to a worn out Core. Anyway, from all the evidence, I'm betting the net damage isn't all physical.
True. It actually makes sense for magic to be only marginally effective in healing heavy injuries. Generally magical healing involves speeding up your own healing, which is fine for light wounds, but how can you speed up an injury that will take months to heal to something instant.
To be fair to TSAB medicine, however, for someone who had a fracture, he sure healed fast. It wasn't instant but he was back practicing with Signum well within a week. Considering it usually takes a few days just for the bones to begin (weeks to remineralized and over a year to be back at near full strength) getting back together, it is probable that magic did work and he's just in the sling to give a bit more time to his arm to heal in peace. Did it say it was acutally broken? If not I’d acutally just argue it wasn’t, otherwise it should have been set. Magic regeneration boost or not that would have sped bone knitting we set broken bones for a reason. A sling is more what you’d use for a bad strain or something. Even if it was "broken" breaks range from "little nick on the bone" to "Pointy shards jutting out of your arm." and if broken his clearly looked to be at the less severe end.
I suspect Nanoha's injuries are actually not local. If it was just a spinal cut, it will affect her ability to walk but not to fly (besides, people seem to use a separate magical-powered nervous system to move while transformed - see Hayate moving around quite well as soon as she transformed). Considering what everyone said about magic, it seems likely that she had a "core accident" at around the same time of the shanking which did most of the hard to repair damage - say she detected a presence, decided to engage, but the core started to fail, the stealth droid shanks her, so she forces to core to charge and fire, and the core thus got wrecked. Or maybe she was concentrating on magic when she got shanked, and the shock was the last straw to a worn out Core. Anyway, from all the evidence, I'm betting the net damage isn't all physical. I don't think we know enough about this area of magic to make that call, we do know for instance though that even things like diet can effect a mages performance, so clearly magic use has a physical element to it and if diet can be a factor major horrible bodily trauma surely could as well. Also I think you’d have issues trying to control flight with wings mounting on your ankles when you can’t feel you’re legs… So maybe she could technically have flown, but not with nearly enough control to be safe without use of her legs.
Me if I have two arguments one of which is simple.
-She got stabbed and the damage from that mean she couldn't walk or fly and magic couldn't fix it.
And the other which makes a bunch of assumptions like...
-She got stabbed but it what REALLY happened was it started some bizarre chain reaction that somehow magnified the damage and resulted in a secondary injury that rendered the major trauma almost moot.
I'll tend to take the first.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-08, 13:13
Did it say it was acutally broken?
Nobody knows. However, it seems they could heal sprains quite well (see Ep1), so I'd guess it was something a step up.
If not I’d acutally just argue it wasn’t, otherwise it should have been set.
Maybe it was set for the healing but they had gone over that phase.
Magic regeneration boost or not that would have sped bone knitting we set broken bones for a reason. A sling is more what you’d use for a bad strain or something. Even if it was "broken" breaks range from "little nick on the bone" to "Pointy shards jutting out of your arm." and if broken his clearly looked to be at the less severe end.
AFAIK, even relatively simple fractures take more than a week to heal normally.
I don't think we know enough about this area of magic to make that call, we do know for instance though that even things like diet can effect a mages performance, so clearly magic use has a physical element to it and if diet can be a factor major horrible bodily trauma surely could as well.
But considering she was nearly S at the time, it'd have taken some major crimping - not just a suboptimum setting to render her completely incapable of flight.
Also I think you’d have issues trying to control flight with wings mounting on your ankles when you can’t feel you’re legs… So maybe she could technically have flown, but not with nearly enough control to be safe without use of her legs.
1) There are other forms of flight without use of Wings on Legs - that's Nanoha's trademark but I see no reason if that became impossible she can't use something else.
2) That's where the Alternate Control Circuit came in. Hayate was moving around real well the moment she powered up in Nanoha A's.
Nobody knows. However, it seems they could heal sprains quite well (see Ep1), so I'd guess it was something a step up.Well then it's even more up in the air, but still the fact was that despite the fairly trivial nature of this trauma, magic wasn't able to poof it away, they're was a noticeable recovery time.
Maybe it was set for the healing but they had gone over that phase.Possible, but a cast would acutally probably be easier to draw then a sling... :p I don’t see why they wouldn’t have done it if they wanted to make the bone appear broken would have been far less ambiguous. Though on that note the sling they had him in was a pretty ramshackle looking thing, sure as hell didn’t look like what any competent hospital or even ambulance would have.
AFAIK, even relatively simple fractures take more than a week to heal normally.
Healing time can vary wildly, a mild fracture that doesn’t totally snap the bone can heal in as little as 2 or 3 weeks with no outside aid (My ten year old brother for instance fell out of a loft bed and had a minor break in the bone in his forearm, it healed in around 3 weeks in a cast). A series of breaks in multiple areas of the same bone though could take MONTHS to heal, with surgery. So without having some detailed knowledge of the extent of the fracture (if any) it’s really impossible to give even an estimated healing time. He bounced back fast true, but he’s still a child and they heal faster to start with still he might have gotten some magical aid, but if so it might well having only increased the healing rate by 2 or maybe 3 times at the outside, possibly less if he was down say a week and a half or something.
But considering she was nearly S at the time, it'd have taken some major crimping - not just a suboptimum setting to render her completely incapable of flight.
Well I didn't say totally incapable, just incapable of controlled flight.
1) There are other forms of flight without use of Wings on Legs - that's Nanoha's trademark but I see no reason if that became impossible she can't use something else.
2) That's where the Alternate Control Circuit came in. Hayate was moving around real well the moment she powered up in Nanoha A's.Well even with the first option she'd have needed to learn an entirely new system, who knows how long that could take and even if she COULD do that, without her legs she'd still never be returned to service so she may have been more focus on getting use of legs back then eve bothering to fly as without them the other point would have been moot.
As for the second but that was a very complex situation, more so since the thing that “powered her up” was basiclly what was destroying her body to begin with. I’m not sure we can draw much information about normal magic/body interactions from this incident as it’s just seems so wildly outside the norm.
Mirificus
2007-09-08, 15:36
Someone's lit the flame anew regarding episode 21 :heh: Oh, well. At least thinking through some of the opord helped clarify the situation for me :)
arkhangelsk
2007-09-09, 20:40
Mirificus, why not draw Keroko and that other guy inside here. That way, we can be less careful with the spoiler tags (they have their uses but it is annoying to discuss with them on).
I never said forces had to be spread equally, but Zest is an S-rank enemy, which has been shown to be able to get past defenses before. Normal defenses don't work against him, and concidering the strongest of the Wolkenritter was assigned to guard that possition, I'd say the primairy plan of the defences was thought out well.
Yes, which is why you either send enough against him to stop him. You don't send a slightly inferior force and hope for it to work (they don't know everything; but they already know Zest is over-S and Signum is under-S, and both are melee types - so where's the symmetrical or assymetrical advantage that will allow Signum to win).
Thoughts like that are what can cost a battle. Threats need to be halted as soon as they are visible, why give them the chance to get close?
If there is one nuclear missile and 4 conventional missiles, you might seriously want to consider concentrating on knocking down the nuke missile.
If we categorize by threats, then forces are spread according to threat level. Not equally.
The deployment is what we call "static defense". If you assume that the forces cannot gain freedom of maneuver, then yes it is a good plan. But this is not true.
The Cradle is the most obvious threat, and has two out of three Aces assigned to it plus one if the Wolkenritter.
One was left on the outside. The other split off inside. The result is pain and creep advance rate.
Scagliethi's lab is an unknown factor, and one of the Aces was dispatched to aid the comrades that were in trouble there (both of which aren't exactly wusses themselves).
Actually, it is likely to be easier than the Cradle. Again, creep advance rates abound.
The enemies going for HQ are at the moment the lowest priority threat, but still need to be dealt with. Signum guarded the skies, while the forwards dealt with the sentoukijin.
Which turned into a bloody farce. Fortunately, they were the protagonists, so Teana and Mach Caliber outdid themselves.
See also, answer to similar question at:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1103789&postcount=112
You seem to be working with hindsight. Wonderfull thing, hindsight, but you can't work with hindsight when the crisis that needs it is now.
Actually, we only use hindsight to confirm that we've predicted the Correlation of Forces correctly.
That is the point, they didn't anticipate that Signum would lose, hence why they send her. They anticipated that Signum could hold off Zest, that plan failed but how could you possibly know a plan will fail from the start?
Given the fact that they already know Zest is an over-S with enough performance to utterly defeat Vita was a clue.
The numbers are not an urgent and definite threat? :twitch: Hell yes they are! Remember what I just told you about the army of tanks that snuck into the base? At the moment they rolled out of the base, they would not be concidered an 'definite urgent' threat by your calculations, but they gave me victory.
In comparison. Remember, in C&C, you win if you get the base. This is not true of the situation.
Any enemy is a definite threat. Any enemy headed for your base is a definite urgent threat.
Not when you have Alternate Command Centers - or at least you are supposed to have them anyway. I'd grant that they can definitely reach HQ within 3 hours.
I dunno, maybe because A: victory was not guaranteed (I have no idea where you got that idea).
There's never certainty, but a high disparity in correlation of forces gives a high probability of success.
B: They don't have the time to play cat-and-mouse games. You can't simply say 'we'll send our powerfull force to play cat-and-mouse with the enemies heading for our base' why? because the enemy could just as easilly tie up the Aces for hours by simply playing that cat-and-mouse game. That is a glarring error staring right there.
Step 1: Use Gefangis Stel Magi, small area. This is feasible because they are in a close formation. That locks them in.
Step 2: Annihilate them with heavy anti-material bombardment. Turn the zone inside the barrier into an inferno before they can split up.
Elapsed time: <1 minute.
In my plans, I allocate no more than 5 minutes for wiping out the sentoukijin, with another few minutes for Zest. If my plans fail and they do get the cat-and-mouse situation, then I'd try to send my Forwards in as sacrificial pawns. But not before I try a low-casualty, low-time consumption solution.
Twenty-two, if you count the special assault squad that went in. And Nanoha is also working on the Cradle, Vivio is key to the Cradle as well.
The "Special Assault Squad" is useless. You know that. See also what Mirificius said.
Yes, lets just leave the enemy lab alone, it might just contain the key to stopping the Cradle, or perhaps even a weapon far worse then the Cradle. It's not as if they're going to evacuate all convenient material while we deal with the Cradle.
Did include it in my time-phased plans. An advantageous correlation will allow that possibility to be processed rapidly. Along with the successful management of Zest, all of RF6's officers can tackle the biggest puzzle - Cradle.
I fail to see how this is a tactical error. Even a perfect plan can fail if the dice rolls wrong.
The duty of a commander is to weigh the Combat Dice so it rolls 5s and 6s most of the time. Hayate left all her dies weighed to roll 1s and 2s.
Trying to secure everywhere is never a tactical error. And so far the forwards have been pretty effective in holding back the numbers/Lutecia. Hell, Tiana even defeated her batch.
By that standard, no plan hatched by Hayate can possibly be wrong, because RF6 is always pre-slated to win. The point is the thinking process. Relying on miracles does not make you a good commander or your tactics sound.
Signum lost, yes, but like I said, even the most perfect of plans can fail if the dice rolls wrong. The plan was that Signum stops Zest, had it been succesfull then that would have solved yet another problem.
Given the correlation of forces, she was sent to fight handed a Combat Dice that's most likely to Roll a 2 (as were most of the other guys). This is unfortunate because had they concentrated force in a time phased plan, that phase (as with all others) could have been rolled with a dice weighed for 5 or 6 (except for Cradle, it is the most unpredictable and no one could begin to mark the die, but trying to weigh it in the right direction would have been a start).
Unfortunately, there was still Due, but she was a factor the TSAB neother knew about nor could take into the equotation.
Shamal, Zafira and recently Vice were pretty timely reserves to me.
Hindsight, hindsight.
How? By playing cat-and-mouse with the numbers? That is only time consuming.
You are repeating yourself.
In fact, there were several tactical errors on your side of the planning. Most of all that you plan with hindsight. The TSAB didn't know Signum would lose to Zest,
If you assume they believe their ranking system is worth something, YES THEY DID.
they didn't know where the reactor and throne were located,
They started out with sending 2 guys when they could have send in 3.
Being from Earth, they should know that Central Command Posts and Engineering Rooms are not placed adjacent to each other. This being said, their reaction to this "news" sucks.
As I understand it, natural human instinct is to bunch up when in danger. Why are these guys almost instinctively splitting up?
Vita is not someone made for delicate close combat. Vita's aproach is to straightforward smash things. When that doesn't work, she gets defeated. It was more a tactical decicion to send Signum, as she is far more versatile in close combat. As Chrono said, 'there is more in Magic then simple rankings'. Signum held her own against Zest, and in fact was never defeated. Zest ran, Signum was fully capable of continuing the fight.
Who was the superior guy was quite clear. Despite being held down by his health problems, Zest and Agito cancelled Signum and Rein's hiryu issen and proceeded to break Laevanteinn.
Further, even if you assume Signum was capable of tactically winning, this shows the gap between the tactical and operational. Operationally, Signum didn't make it until Zest was already in Regius' room! That means a failure, since stopping Zest from entering Regius' room is kind of her whole purpose anyway.
In some ways, "keeping someone" from reaching somewhere in the Maneuver Rich environment of air combat requires a greater superiority than just beating him, especially when you don't have a lot of depth in your defense.
Neither where my tanks when they rolled out of my base, but they reached the enemies camp because he neglected his home defenses.
Perhaps not, but when you aproach the day limit, it becomes urgent. Remember, even if they were to send aditional forces to the Cradle, they would still have to travel back. The numbers would have long since reached their goal by then.[/quote]
See what I had to say about your base analogy in Ep21 thread.
Ah, but they didn't know that, now did they?
If they didn't know that, how did they know that sending the Forwards will not just lead to them being p3wned for nothing in 5 seconds?
The answer, of course, is that it is simple to estimate the approximate combat coefficient. We can do it from Ep17 and all we had were our eyes. We can tell that Wendi and Novu are equal or at most slightly superior to the Forwards. Ginga's coefficient we know as A. We might even know her IS from the records. Otto and Deed, Shamal and Zafira probably can make an estimate about them, but about AA-AAA at most. In fact, considering the last, they had actually the Numbers in at arguably an inferior correlation of force. They were almost sent as sacrificial pawns. Fortunately, 7Arcs decided to help them. If only 7Arcs stepped in during the combat planning phase...
Cat-and-mouse games are not limited to a single tactic. The main goal is to keep the enemy occupied. This can be done through various courses of actions.
I don't plan on giving them time to begin such a game.
And still this would be a tactical error for the TSAB, remember, the numbers do not have a time limit. They can play cat-and-mouse for as long as they like. If the Aces even make the effort to disperce them, it's already a partial victory on their part.
Wait, first you say they first must guard the capital, then you say that any attempt to quickly finish guarding it is a tactical error?
Disabling the engines does not render the ship useless. It still has many weapons, which is not a good thing to have hovering above a now highly populated area.
In a warship, disabling the power plant means depriving the weapons of power, as well as the electronics.
Oh, I'm not. I'm merely reffering to the actions they took in the planning, since that is what we are talking about. During the planning it was decided to deal with the situations, after that they were put into action. It is the moment of planning that we need to look at.
Yeah, the "planning" involved putting all the units into marginal or disfavorable situations.
Would you rather not roll at all and get certain failure?
If some failures are much less devastating than others...
Panzerfausts are also useless in close-combat areas.
That's because of backblast. Some similar weapons do not have backblast and can be used at minimal distances. Also, the Cradle is a lot more open than typical "closed situations". You need a good demolitions unit to speed up the rate of advance.
Which screams 'come attack me' frankly, I'd laugh at the idiot who would fall for such an obvious trap.
It is a trap, but for the moment, they were out in the open. By decisively seizing that moment to trap and destroy them with overwhelming firepower, any attempt on their part to spring their trap comes to nought.
Think of a tank ambush being destroyed before it could happen by a flight of B-52s.
They didn't even know if Zest would show up, but to simply ignore him would be suicidal. Thus they placed Signum on guard in the event he would show up. Waste of critical forces? Perhaps, but if she was needed (which she was) she would not be wasted. Nothing is certain in battles. Forces placed in positions that seemed mandatory may have been wasted just minutes after making contact. Signum fought well, she hardly lost the battle. Zest ran for it.
They could already see Zest. It is pretty obvious where he was going. For Signum, see top.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Since when did they abandon any of those? Hell, they never even had economy of force, much less surprise.
Mass: In splitting up their forces, they gave up mass. This greatly increases the amount of tiem they have to spend at any one battle zone. This deprives them off...
Maneuver: Because each force is pinned by equal to superior enemies due to failure to exploit mass, no one can reinforce anyone else, or exploit any gaps, or even cover any new gaps. That means no maneuver.
Economy of Force: Because they aren't massing anywhere, they don't have that.
Simplicity: A 3-pronged plan is inherently complex.
Security and Surprise: OK, they never had those.
Mirificus
2007-09-09, 22:16
Mass: In splitting up their forces, they gave up mass. This greatly increases the amount of tiem they have to spend at any one battle zone. This deprives them off...
Maneuver: Because each force is pinned by equal to superior enemies due to failure to exploit mass, no one can reinforce anyone else, or exploit any gaps, or even cover any new gaps. That means no maneuver.
Economy of Force: Because they aren't massing anywhere, they don't have that.
Simplicity: A 3-pronged plan is inherently complex.
Security and Surprise: OK, they never had those.
Yes, they don't have security but that's one of a myriad of problems.
I accidentally omitted a very important operational principle where RF6 is found wanting when I made that list: Unity of Command
Surprise: I would say that RF6's main chance to gain surprise and regain the initiative was to concentrate their forces at an unexpected point using their superior speed and mobility. Jail's superior intelligence gathering gives him more time to react but by no means does it allow him to automatically redeploy his forces. Jail's left his forces in relatively static positions and given them the orders to return to the Cradle when they've "finished having fun." A lot of his forces will be difficult to redeploy or can't be redeployed at all. Moreover, he has left himself with no credible reserves. He's no longer in a very good position to take advantage of the superior intelligence gathering.
Whether or not RF6 is aware of that or not is irrelevant as they should be concentrating their forces like that anyways. What it does mean is that when they do attack, if they've made provisions to concentrate their forces at a decisive point of their choosing as they should be, then they have a greater chance of achieving surprise and if they do achieve surprise, they have a correspondingly greater chance of success.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-09, 22:25
@Mirificus - I believe the lack of resources should be blamed on the Ground Force general (can't remember his name), not on RF6.Regius! He just died. At least remember his name for the obituary where TSAB will sing praises and we'd laugh our bellies off!I read it as a part of the reason why RF6 was created by the TSA and the Church was to counter the political actions of the general.
Of course the General is responsible on the operational-strategic level. But Hayate has a duty to allocate whatever forces she has to maximize the probability of success for the most important objectives. In short, prioritization. Few generals ever have enough forces to be truly happy. The point is to do what you can with what you have.
@Keroko - That is one of my favourite tactics in C&C Generals, build a perceived threat (which is ofc really is a threat), then smack them from several sides as they start scampering to neutralise it. I'm a great believer in split force tactics, I love fighting from multiple sides and I normally attack with several battalions, that way when one takes damage, the reserves can take over whilst they recover or more importantly if I deem necessary I can send the whole lot in to finish them.
Typical Soviet tactics. Maskirovka, main and subsidiary efforts on a broad front, echelons.
At what point was the danger of the Cradle actually known and specifically that it needs to reach orbit?
They pretty much knew what kind of threat it was by the time the plan was drawn up.
At what point did they realise that inside all the strategic areas had AMF fields which hindered all their recently unlocked captains?
1) Some degree of AMF defense is hardly unpredictable.
2) If they knew there would be a strong AMF defense, they would know they would tire even more from violent uses of magic. Which further increases the need for force concentration so each person consumes less. In other words, she's even more guilty if she knew about the AMF stuff.
At what point did they know that the forwards instead of fighting 3 combat cyborgs would be fighting 5 and a summoner with her kick arse melee familiar?
Such uncertainty is why they should have brought more, not less, so that they can still blast through easily even with some surprises.
yay, the other guy is here ready to wreck rampage... not.
If that's the principle they are following then they're still doing a terrible job. Where they have sent forces they haven't sent enough, so they greatly increase the risk of losing at each of the places they're defending. Look at what happened with Zest and the Ground Force HQ and Fate and Jail's lab. If protecting each civilian is important then you should realize that the Cradle itself and the drones pose the greatest risk to civilians. Unlike the other objectives, they're both directly above a major population center. The longer the drones and Cradle are there, the more civilians they kill either directly or through collateral damage.
If each civilian life is important, then why aren't more forces deployed around the Cradle?
I'm not arguing that the decisions Hayate took were the best ones or anything like that. As i mentioned, I would have pusheed Fate and Shaha out of there and send them were they would make more of a diference (like say, helping with some actual support for Nanoha and Vita). I didn't argued either that the Craddle wasn't the main treat and that it shouldn't take the main focus. My position was against people addressing it something that required 95+% of the available forces. While not as big, the treat posed by the gadgets and the remaining numbers *are* something that should be addressed, for the reasons I explained in the other thread, and this last one
The difference is that that one single, central enemy base we are talking about is the TSAB capital. Political center of the TSAB, losing the Midchilda capital (as with any nation which loses its political centre) or even having it at jeopardy with the numbers taking the HQ and its inhabitants as hostages would lead to great political and economical turmoil should the situation not be solved quickly enough, which might even result into the disintegration of the TSAB into a pre-3-admirals like state in a worst case scenario. As you said, you have to look things into the greater scale, not just the immediate treat. We are not talking about any minor world. We are talking about th3 capital world after all.
My point? I agree with all your points regarding Haye having split their forces too much resulting in everything going havok, and only succeeding through sheer luck. However I think that the only expendable sub-mission was the "let's get scagglietti" one, and "let's leave our political/economical centre to its luck and hope that we don't have another mess to untangle once we bring down the craddle." isn't much of a logical option. As much as keeping your forces together will allow you to complete your sub-objectives cleanly and fast, there are some points you just can't afford to lose or even have under real attack,
I won't comment on allot of that as I'm clearly missing some context and I'm not in the mode to go diving through threads, but I will make some general comments about what I think are some of your main points.
Mass: In splitting up their forces, they gave up mass. This greatly increases the amount of tiem they have to spend at any one battle zone. This deprives them off...
Maneuver: Because each force is pinned by equal to superior enemies due to failure to exploit mass, no one can reinforce anyone else, or exploit any gaps, or even cover any new gaps. That means no maneuver.
Economy of Force: Because they aren't massing anywhere, they don't have that. You simply assume mass is possible while still keeping to a rather pressing timetable, as far as I can tell you have no way to prove it is and if the enemy ends up completing his objectives while you waste time massing you’ve lost by default. You just keep saying how it possible to move between the zones fast enough, I’d like some actual detailed plans to prove that assertion. Saying “they can all just form one big group then go to each intern” sounds great but only if you can prove that they CAN arrive at each location in time. If you’ve done this somewhere and I missed it a link to the post is fine.
I’ve seen you mumble about using teleporters and such to allow you to mass in one place at a time and still reach every location in time. Me I’d tend to assume that this wasn’t done because it wasn’t possible, not because of raging incompetence. If you can PROVE that teleporter’s COULD have done what is needed of your plan that’s another story, but I seriously doubt you can. So assuming teleporters are out, can your plan still work? The distances involved here don’t seem totally trivial to me as mages despite their flight ability are probably not that much faster then a prop plane for the most part. (since they can talk while flying and aren’t throwing off shockwaves as they move)
In any case if we throw out the teleports the forwards couldn’t even get onto the Cradle so it’s not like you could use them their anyway. (Unless you intend to fly an unarmed helicopter through hordes of UCAVs and beam fire…) They also can’t really seem to fly long distances very fast so them reaching the lab in any kind of timely fashion also seems unlikely. So to me at least you’d probably be looking at just the aces and whatever was already deployed at the various sights in the battles.
I also have some doubts that Zest or the borgs are just going yell “RAGHHH” and charge at 4 near or above S rank mages if so confronted so I don’t think you’re going to take him out, more likely you simply end up either fighting him at the cradle or he retreats and you have to move on at which point he comes back through unopposed. Or you end up cashing him all over the place trying to pin him down and wasting precious time.
I’m not even go to grace that bullshit about a sub minute victory with a reply for someone preaching “military logic” to even propose a plan that calls for the total defeat of the enemy in under one minute is fairly comical.
Simplicity: A 3-pronged plan is inherently complex. True, but they have the standard sci-fi “absurdly effective, always on, instantaneous communications” I mean shit they even have Telepathy! This reduces the complexity quite a bit and makes managing the independent groups much easier. Further the force is tiny to begin this isn’t like trying to wrangle three armored divisions in a multi-prong encirclement or something, it’s managing a team smaller then most rifle squads. In fact considering it like three highly dispersed but still very much interconnected fireteams is probably a fairly close analogy.
Security and Surprise: OK, they never had those. Which brings me to another point, and one that rarely seems to be touched on. Given that they where on the defensive or at best HAD to attack known locations why do most of you seem to simply assume that such a radical change in RF6 deployment won't be meet by major modifications of the enemy forces plans to counter this maneuver?
At best to me it seems like your plan probably simply results in one HUGE fairly evenly matched battles instead of 3.
My point? I agree with all your points regarding Haye having split their forces too much resulting in everything going havok, and only succeeding through sheer luck. However I think that the only expendable sub-mission was the "let's get scagglietti" one, and "let's leave our political/economical centre to its luck and hope that we don't have another mess to untangle once we bring down the craddle." isn't much of a logical option. As much as keeping your forces together will allow you to complete your sub-objectives cleanly and fast, there are some points you just can't afford to lose or even have under real attack, I wouldn’t consider that expendable at all, going through all this shit only to let the master mind behind it all slip away to fight another day would seem like a rather glaring defeat to me. (even worse if he comes back and cause major damage again,they'll be HELL to pay for letting him escape if that happens) Just look at all the shit flying over our failure to nab Osama.
At best to me it seems like your plan probably simply results in one HUGE fairly evenly matched battles instead of 3.
A brilliant assessment, tk. Yet, when you consider how 7arcs likes to depict their battles, you'd still have what amounts to 8 individual battles anyway. Only now, they're closer together than canon. And Ark will be whining even more about why they aren't ganging up on their opponents, especially since they'd now actually be in a position to do so.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-10, 00:36
I won't comment on allot of that as I'm clearly missing some context and I'm not in the mode to go diving through threads, but I will make some general comments about what I think are some of your main points.
You seem to be making a non-post. You are basically saying the good old apologist "You can't be absolutely sure." In this logic, no commander can be indicted no matter how sucky he was. No we can't say anything is sure but we sure can analyze probabilities and look at results.
As I already agreed, if you insist that no maneuver is possible, then this is a good static defense. But I find this proposition absurd.
You simply assume mass is possible while still keeping to a rather pressing timetable, as far as I can tell you have no way to prove it is and if the enemy ends up completing his objectives while you waste time massing you’ve lost by default.
If I don't pack enough mass, he ends up blowing past my inadequate forces and accomplishes his objectives, so I lose too.
I’ve seen you mumble about using teleporters and such to allow you to mass in one place at a time and still reach every location in time. Me I’d tend to assume that this wasn’t done because it wasn’t possible, not because of raging incompetence.
After seeing how transportations can move entire PLATOONs and throw people across dimensions, I'd be shocked to hear about the new limitations. I can only say that it is reasonable to presume the capability is there, between Asura, Shamal and individual transport, based on historical evidence.
So assuming teleporters are out, can your plan still work? The distances involved here don’t seem totally trivial to me as mages despite their flight ability are probably not that much faster then a prop plane for the most part. (since they can talk while flying and aren’t throwing off shockwaves as they move)
I'd grant your assumption, but what helps me here is the geography of the battlefield. You'd notice that they started off all flying in the same direction and only break off at the last minute, which means that all of today's objectives are almost along a straight line and it won't be much of a detour to zigzag towards each of them in turn. The farthest to go still arrived on the scene well within half an hour. So I don't expect increased travel time to be a show stopper, even assuming the absurd unavailability of transporters. Any lost time is to be made up by increased SoA.
In any case if we throw out the teleports the forwards couldn’t even get onto the Cradle so it’s not like you could use them their anyway. (Unless you intend to fly an unarmed helicopter through hordes of UCAVs and beam fire…) They also can’t really seem to fly long distances very fast so them reaching the lab in any kind of timely fashion also seems unlikely. So to me at least you’d probably be looking at just the aces and whatever was already deployed at the various sights in the battles.
Fine, I'd grant that if transportation is not available, it may be difficult to employ the forwards.
I also have some doubts that Zest or the borgs are just going yell “RAGHHH” and charge at 4 near or above S rank mages if so confronted so I don’t think you’re going to take him out, more likely you simply end up either fighting him at the cradle or he retreats and you have to move on at which point he comes back through unopposed. Or you end up cashing him all over the place trying to pin him down and wasting precious time.
Who even says I'm going to "confront" them. Sneak up and annihilate (like Shamal and Zafira did to Otto Ep23) is more like it. The first thing the Numbers should see is Gefangis Stel Magi (or equivalent) surrounding them. The second thing they should see is Pink, Yellow and White engulfing them. Probably they won't be conscious to see the White or even the Yellow.
I’m not even go to grace that bullshit about a sub minute victory with a reply for someone preaching “military logic” to even propose a plan that calls for the total defeat of the enemy in under one minute is fairly comical.
How long was I supposed to allocate? My hope is to ambush and annihilate. Gefangis Stel Magi takes almost zero preparation time and will be deployed within seconds. Excelion Buster will take at most 10 seconds to charge, and Hayate's shot will be ready soon after. Really, a minute is almost excessive. Even so, in the planning I gave 5 whole minutes for the Numbers fight (and several more for Zest).
True, but they have the standard sci-fi “absurdly effective, always on, instantaneous communications” I mean shit they even have Telepathy!
It can be jammed too, like Ep17. Further, you'd notice that Hayate wasn't even commanding anything anymore except maybe the Air Units.
Further the force is tiny
Tiny forces reduce the effort of splitting. They do not eliminate the fact splitting is more complex.
Which brings me to another point, and one that rarely seems to be touched on. Given that they where on the defensive or at best HAD to attack known locations why do most of you seem to simply assume that such a radical change in RF6 deployment won't be meet by major modifications of the enemy forces plans to counter this maneuver?
The answer is Initiative. My Decision, as I've gone over it a hundred times, involves hitting the Ground Numbers first. Obviously, Scarlietti assumes I'd split up to deal with his prongs. He won't have a chance to even realize his plans might need changing before I flatten his Ground Numbers. That's half his guys gone.
I presume Scarlietti does prefer to keep his base for at least a while longer, or else we'd have seen him packing already. His remaining forces will thus have to cover the Cradle and here, and he'd have little choice but to keep them where they were. In other words, I have regrasped the Initiative.
If he does vacate from one location, the other becomes scot free and the lost time can be made up.
Further, if such mobility was available to Scarlietti, he could have proactively redeployed even given the current layout. For example, he could have moved Tre and Sette to help out against Nanoha now that he has Fate in a red cage.
I wouldn’t consider that expendable at all, going through all this shit only to let the master mind behind it all slip away to fight another day would seem like a rather glaring defeat to me. (even worse if he comes back and cause major damage again,they'll be HELL to pay for letting him escape if that happens) Just look at all the shit flying over our failure to nab Osama.
Quite frankly, I only include him in my ops-plan because he might just be the key to stopping the Cradle the easy way - if (for example) I knew he could do nothing, he's out.
Again, all other things fade into insignificance in the face of the Cradle. At this point, I'm not thinking "zero civilian casualties" or any of that pretty crap. Frankly, we already lost since Ep17. As Hayate, I'm already awaiting my well-deserved court-martial. If the planet gets saved, and my battalion's alive, then that's OK...
Mirificus
2007-09-10, 08:24
Which brings me to another point, and one that rarely seems to be touched on. Given that they where on the defensive or at best HAD to attack known locations why do most of you seem to simply assume that such a radical change in RF6 deployment won't be meet by major modifications of the enemy forces plans to counter this maneuver?
At best to me it seems like your plan probably simply results in one HUGE fairly evenly matched battles instead of 3.
I did take that into account. Let me break this down.
Cradle: Dieci has no way to redeploy on her own. If she leaves, then Quattro needs to leave as well which would leave the Cradle is undefended. Their mobility isn't terribly useful either as they have no real air combat capability and are very vulnerable in transit.
Jail's lab: Two flight-capable numbers. Both are capable of air combat.
Abandoned city: Three flight-capable numbers. However, only Deed and Otto are capable air combat. The ground numbers can't readily return to Jail's HQ. Lutecia has demonstrated no real air combat capability and is extremely vulnerable on a drone.
Ground HQ: Jail has no command over Zest. Due doesn't have the mobility to redeploy and she already has an important mission.
Uncommitted Reserves: None
Being generous, Jail has five numbers that he can readily bring in to counter RF6's mobile elements. Six if he leaves the Cradle undefended. None of them will be able to redeploy instantly either and the objectives are pretty far apart from each other. able to redeploy instantly either. As for RF6 it just so happens that its most powerful combat elements also happen to be its most mobile. Even if Jail manages to concentrate his flying numbers together, then he's very likely to compromise his mobile forces in a single engagement as based on past performance and capabilities, RF6's mobile forces are very likely to overmatch Jail's.
Lack of reserves aside, it also doesn't seem like Jail has the will to redeploy his forces either. You don't think that once Quattro noticed that only the forwards had taken the bait in the city, it wouldn't have been more effective for the flying numbers to disengage and return to Jail's lab and leave the ground numbers to conduct a fighting withdrawal? The forwards comprise only a small fraction of RF6's combat strength and would need to bring in air transport to reach Jail's lab or the Cradle and Jail's defense at the lab would be far more likely to succeed with the additional forces.
Don't forget that his last orders to the numbers were to return to the Cradle after they have finished having fun.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-10, 08:53
Abandoned city: Three flight-capable numbers. However, only Deed and Otto are capable air combat. The ground numbers can't readily return to Jail's HQ. Lutecia has demonstrated no real air combat capability and is extremely vulnerable on a drone.
Oh, you do remember Lutecia, who still seems to be at least somewhat under the Doc's orders and not far away, can teleport them - that's how they got home in Ep12.
By the way, the diversionary portion of this whole Ground Numbers attack must be quite high - if getting to the HQ was the real priority, Scarlietti will just have Lutecia teleport our Numbers (and a few drones to provide some AMF backup) in as close as feasible - just like the drones.
Mirificus
2007-09-10, 09:04
Oh, you do remember Lutecia, who still seems to be at least somewhat under the Doc's orders and not far away, can teleport them - that's how they got home in Ep12.
By the way, the diversionary portion of this whole Ground Numbers attack must be quite high - if getting to the HQ was the real priority, Scarlietti will just have Lutecia teleport our Numbers (and a few drones to provide some AMF backup) in as close as feasible - just like the drones.
Quattro has full control over Lutecia. Which just brings me back to my point about the doctor no longer having the flexibility to change his plans. If he could use Lutecia to teleport all of the numbers in the abandoned city to his lab, then he would have had an even better chance of defeating Fate. The forwards have been left there standing uselessly until they can call in air transport. By the time, they could get back in the fight, Fate would probably already have been defeated. He also could have transported the flight-numbers near the Cradle to deal with Vita or Nanoha.
Jail has had almost perfect intelligence throughout the battle thanks to Quattro but he has stopped using it to his advantage.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-10, 09:40
Quattro has full control over Lutecia. Which just brings me back to my point about the doctor no longer having the flexibility to change his plans. If he could use Lutecia to teleport all of the numbers in the abandoned city to his lab, then he would have had an even better chance of defeating Fate. The forwards have been left there standing uselessly until they can call in air transport. By the time, they could get back in the fight, Fate would probably already have been defeated.
Actually, I agree with Scarlietti's decision in this (assuming this was actually His Decision):
1) Historical data based on Ep17 clearly suggests that 3 and 7 have a favorable correlation of forces versus Fate. Relying on this historical data proves successful in Ep21 - even if Doc hadn't butted in, the Projected Victor in a Few Minutes is perfectly clear.
2) If he moved his Numbers back, mathematically he'd have a marginally superior CoF. But he obviously has plenty enough, so the main risk at this point is that one of his Ground Numbers get slashed trying to get an attack in on Fate.Of course, I don't agree with his decision not to just Press his Advantage and finish off Fate, giving her a chance to fight back. But even in the fight back scenario, if 3 and 7 get instant p3wned by Fate what chance do the rest of them have.He also could have transported the flight-numbers near the Cradle to deal with Vita or Nanoha.
Will have to agree with this one, though. At the very least, he could have finished off Vita w/ 8 and 12 given how badly she was hurt. But he did seem to want the HQ as well, if not very urgently (if he needs it fast, it'd be Lutecia Teleport).
Of course, I don't agree with his decision not to just Press his Advantage and finish off Fate,
That's because he's still acting on his instincts, Unlimited Desire, to gather those "special things" and bend them to his will.
Mirificus
2007-09-10, 11:49
Actually, I agree with Scarlietti's decision in this (assuming this was actually His Decision):
1) Historical data based on Ep17 clearly suggests that 3 and 7 have a favorable correlation of forces versus Fate. Relying on this historical data proves successful in Ep21 - even if Doc hadn't butted in, the Projected Victor in a Few Minutes is perfectly clear.
2) If he moved his Numbers back, mathematically he'd have a marginally superior CoF. But he obviously has plenty enough, so the main risk at this point is that one of his Ground Numbers get slashed trying to get an attack in on Fate.Of course, I don't agree with his decision not to just Press his Advantage and finish off Fate, giving her a chance to fight back. But even in the fight back scenario, if 3 and 7 get instant p3wned by Fate what chance do the rest of them have.
Will have to agree with this one, though. At the very least, he could have finished off Vita w/ 8 and 12 given how badly she was hurt. But he did seem to want the HQ as well, if not very urgently (if he needs it fast, it'd be Lutecia Teleport).
I didn't mean to suggest that both options had equal merit.
The point though really is that Jail has effectively relinquished command of his forces and even if he wants to influence the fight, he has no reserves. His last orders to the numbers are rather telling.
That's because he's still acting on his instincts, Unlimited Desire, to gather those "special things" and bend them to his will.
That doesn't really demonstrate a whole lot of the flexibility.
Nightengale
2007-09-10, 11:54
The degree of stupid decision making on Jail's part (( choosing to tell stories rather than go for the kill, giving vague orders, balance of force )) can also be attributed to his attitude in the face of his own defeat. Besides, he's the type of person who values entertainment just as much, maybe even more than effectiveness and efficiency.
So long as he doesn't lose everything, he's already accepted the possibility of his defeat and death.
Despite being fully aware that Project F may not necessarily bring back the same person with the same soul yadayada, he's unfazed at the possibility of suffering defeat, since he's got insurances in the Numbers, and I suspect he has more than what he's telling since he purposely tells Fate so much, enough to ruin his revival plans.
He's not afraid of death. In fact, he mocks the futility of killing him in front of Fate.
Still, he seems pretty confident that the Cradle won't be stopped, so who knows.
Mirificus
2007-09-10, 12:00
The degree of stupid decision making on Jail's part (( choosing to tell stories rather than go for the kill, giving vague orders, balance of force )) can also be attributed to his attitude in the face of his own defeat.
So long as he doesn't lose everything, he's already accepted the possibility of his defeat and death.
Despite being fully aware that Project F may not necessarily bring back the same person with the same soul yadayada, he's unfazed at the possibility of suffering defeat, since he's got insurances in the Numbers, and I suspect he has more than what he's telling since he purposely tells Fate so much, enough to ruin his revival plans.
He's not afraid of death. In fact, he mocks the futility of killing him in front of Fate.
Most of what I said about Jail was in response to this since I'm exactly sure to whom it was directed:
...why do most of you seem to simply assume that such a radical change in RF6 deployment won't be meet by major modifications of the enemy forces plans to counter this maneuver?
You seem to be making a non-post. You are basically saying the good old apologist "You can't be absolutely sure." In this logic, no commander can be indicted no matter how sucky he was. No we can't say anything is sure but we sure can analyze probabilities and look at results.I'm saying we can't be sure, and because we can't your basing huge sections of your plan on shit you can't prove, but just assume will work perfectly so your plan has a chance.
Also sorry for trying to be and sound civil, would you prefer I start insulting you and flinging shit. :rolleyes:
As I already agreed, if you insist that no maneuver is possible, then this is a good static defense. But I find this proposition absurd.But up to now you provide no evidence to DISPROVE IT. Saying it's "absurd" is all well and good, but if you don't prove it, it dosen't mean shit.
If I don't pack enough mass, he ends up blowing past my inadequate forces and accomplishes his objectives, so I lose too.Well then it seems you're fucked either way so it's just a bad situation to begin with without any "good" options.
After seeing how transportations can move entire PLATOONs and throw people across dimensions, I'd be shocked to hear about the new limitations. I can only say that it is reasonable to presume the capability is there, between Asura, Shamal and individual transport, based on historical evidence. Under what circumstances? I somehow doubt a secret lab and a giant flying ancient super weapon have NO precautions for keeping people from beaming around them. I suppose beaming might have been more of an option to deal with the city numbers, who knows.
I personally find the idea that teleporting is an unstoppable uncounterable tactic absurd, I’d tend to think the process could be jammed and probably fairly easily since such things MUST be a very difficult and complex to do. You see no use of teleporting and assume incompetence, I see it and assume something prevented it as an option, perhaps something emitted by the GAINT ANCIENT SUPERWEAPON WITH THE POWER TO DESTROY A PLANET. IMO you’re just biased and so eager to show how smart you are and how stupid the chars are you’ll ignore any possibility besides rampant stupidity to explain why your totally awesome plan wasn’t used.
I've also noted a reduce emphasis on such things in general this season, and I think that was intentional by the writers. Large scale teleporting can easily totally ruin a military drama and kill suspense in general. “Wow they’re in some danger here, oh well I’m sure they’ll just beam out now. Yup, they’re they go, wow awesome. A sneak attack?! Oh well they can just teleport 500 guys around them in 2 minutes, yup there they are and… total curbstomp, wow epic.” Or you just end up coming up with something that can stop teleporting every other weak (see Star Trek transporters) and it gets just as stupid.
I'd grant your assumption, but what helps me here is the geography of the battlefield. You'd notice that they started off all flying in the same direction and only break off at the last minute, which means that all of today's objectives are almost along a straight line and it won't be much of a detour to zigzag towards each of them in turn. The farthest to go still arrived on the scene well within half an hour. So I don't expect increased travel time to be a show stopper, even assuming the absurd unavailability of transporters. Any lost time is to be made up by increased SoA. Okay that I'll accept, but frankly I think the writers just wanted to avoid a teleporting cop outs, and I don't disagree; teleportation in general if not badly limited is just such a plot killer.
Maybe once this is over we can try and form some sort of timeline of the battle to try and get an idea how long it lasted and get a real good idea if the travel time would have mattered.
Fine, I'd grant that if transportation is not available, it may be difficult to employ the forwards.Maybe? Beside they'd almost certainly be useless inside the Super AMF field anyway so they couldn't fight in the cradle regardless.
Who even says I'm going to "confront" them. Sneak up and annihilate (like Shamal and Zafira did to Otto Ep23) is more like it. The first thing the Numbers should see is Gefangis Stel Magi (or equivalent) surrounding them. The second thing they should see is Pink, Yellow and White engulfing them. Probably they won't be conscious to see the White or even the Yellow.Again this assume that even though RF6 always seems to have good sensor coverage and we know that the borgs have at least one EW specialist aboard a huge ancient warship that apparently isn't a huge distance from any of the battle that you can somehow sneak your entire force into range undetected, or that the highly placed spy in your high command doesn’t compromise the plan from the GET go.
How long was I supposed to allocate? My hope is to ambush and annihilate. Gefangis Stel Magi takes almost zero preparation time and will be deployed within seconds. Excelion Buster will take at most 10 seconds to charge, and Hayate's shot will be ready soon after. Really, a minute is almost excessive. Even so, in the planning I gave 5 whole minutes for the Numbers fight (and several more for Zest).I just find the ambush working highly unlikely to begin with. The main reason I find this unlikely is you seem to be constantly ignoring the fact that Jail as a spy within arms reach of the commanding officer of all the ground forces on the planet... I find her being unable to gain a copy of RF6 plan fairly unlikely, or at least getting out a timely order that they're all deploying together. Then you assuming you could do it THAT quickly just struck me as pompous. The borgs aren't super mages sure, but they aren't TOTAL chumps.
Really the need for a little drama alone would dicate the battle last at least a little while, curbstomps are great in a militray sense, but can you HONESTLY tell me you'd enjoy watching the entire main cast gang up on and destroy 5 totally inferior targets in less then 1 minute? :rolleyes: This is my biggest issue with all these attempts at "military logic" all of them are geared to turning this fight into a total fucking curbstomp, which IS what a military would want, but boy is fucking boring to watch animated.
It can be jammed too, like Ep17. Further, you'd notice that Hayate wasn't even commanding anything anymore except maybe the Air Units. Well what's she going to do yell “Fight harder!" To her subordinates that are nearly as experienced as her? The point was if something had needed to be communicated urgently or the plan adjusted she could have contacted them to do so. I'd hope that in the time from 17 to this they'd looked at what happened and devised from counter measures. Further even then as I recall telepathy was largely unaffected so even then communications were merely somewhat impeded not severed.
Tiny forces reduce the effort of splitting. They do not eliminate the fact splitting is more complex. They reduce it to the point that it's barely an issue given the C3 tools at the disposal of a sci-fi group like this.
The answer is Initiative. My Decision, as I've gone over it a hundred times, involves hitting the Ground Numbers first. Obviously, Scarlietti assumes I'd split up to deal with his prongs. He won't have a chance to even realize his plans might need changing before I flatten his Ground Numbers. That's half his guys gone.I presume Scarlietti does prefer to keep his base for at least a while longer, or else we'd have seen him packing already. His remaining forces will thus have to cover the Cradle and here, and he'd have little choice but to keep them where they were. In other words, I have regrasped the Initiative.
If he does vacate from one location, the other becomes scot free and the lost time can be made up.
Further, if such mobility was available to Scarlietti, he could have proactively redeployed even given the current layout. For example, he could have moved Tre and Sette to help out against Nanoha now that he has Fate in a red cage.She broke out of said cage rather quickly perhaps to fast to even considered that option, she was inside it at most like half and hour from what I can tell (probably less). He may also indeed have blundered and let his ego convince him he was winning and didn't need too. Still shifting forces AFTER the battle began I didn't really expect, I was thinking more as the enemy was approaching or even sooner, recall he had a spy in the office of the commander of the entire planets ground forces right up until the battle began.
Quite frankly, I only include him in my ops-plan because he might just be the key to stopping the Cradle the easy way - if (for example) I knew he could do nothing, he's out.Which they don't, so why even mention this?
Again, all other things fade into insignificance in the face of the Cradle. Agreed, but the forwards can't fight on the cradle and sending Hayate inside seems like a BAD move (if she dies so do BOTH lieutenants, that's canon fact) so at best you have maybe 5 mages (one of whom needs to be protected to ab absurd degree) working under a heavy handicap and with their plan possibly compromised from the start by an enemy spy in any case and so possibly ending up facing twice their numbers of cyborgs PLUS drones, and Vivio, and Zest, and maybe Jail too. That could go FUBAR REAL fast.
RF6 needed to be bigger, at least twice the size IMO, that's what 99.9% of these fights boil down too, but poltics kept it from being as big as it needed to be and they paid for it. (Hardly unheard of see Iraq 2003).
At this point, I'm not thinking "zero civilian casualties" or any of that pretty crap. I wouldn't be either but we need to consider who we're talking about here, this is still a magic girl show for god sake. A"fuck the civvies we got our own problems!" attitude is not exactly a genre staple...
Frankly, we already lost since Ep17. As Hayate, I'm already awaiting my well-deserved court-martial. Bullshit, it was a defeat but it was hardly “losing.” Given that nearly the entire force was still intact and able to continue battle. Ep.17 had some bad calls but many of those where a product of ludicrous limitations placed on RF6 by their commanders. (which is hardly unheard of… Recalls stuff about not being able to fire back at SAM sites until they’re acutally launching missiles at you in Vietnam among other insane ROEs throughout modern warfare.)
And the only people that need court maritals are the morons in charge of the GFHQ that out of idiotic political posturing made any truly effective preparation nearly impossible. Sadly the head dumbass is already dead, though he richly deserved said death.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-10, 22:20
I'm saying we can't be sure, and because we can't your basing huge sections of your plan on shit you can't prove, but just assume will work perfectly so your plan has a chance.
Your biggest question seemed to be on the transporters, and you don't seem to have an answer to the historical evidence of their performance.
Under what circumstances? I somehow doubt a secret lab and a giant flying ancient super weapon have NO precautions for keeping people from beaming around them. I suppose beaming might have been more of an option to deal with the city numbers, who knows.
1) Precia also has a secret lab. Nope, no effective teleport jammers.
2) Ditto for Ground Force.
3) No mention of such jammers. You are just imagining them in your apologism.
4) If it does happen, then transport to the nearest possible location.
I personally find the idea that teleporting is an unstoppable uncounterable tactic absurd,
That was kind of the whole hope of teleportation in the first place.
I’d tend to think the process could be jammed and probably fairly easily since such things MUST be a very difficult and complex to do.
This concept breaks considering teleportation in this world can be done individually. Any computations are no more than what can be done with a man-portable device.
I've also noted a reduce emphasis on such things in general this season, and I think that was intentional by the writers. Large scale teleporting can easily totally ruin a military drama and kill suspense in general.
Strangely, I was impressed by Lutecia's use of teleport tactics. If you do it well, you can increase the suspense - our heroes in constant danger of ambush, then counterambush.
Or you just end up coming up with something that can stop teleporting every other weak (see Star Trek transporters) and it gets just as stupid.
Which is why involving a teleportation capability requires planning... but I think Star Trek took the better out of two evils. If you don't explicitly blame the machine, people blame the man for not teleporting.
Maybe once this is over we can try and form some sort of timeline of the battle to try and get an idea how long it lasted and get a real good idea if the travel time would have mattered.
IIRC, the timer started at ~3 hours when the mission started. By Ep21's end, everyone is at their locations and starting their work, and the timer was only down to 2h 16 mins.
Maybe? Beside they'd almost certainly be useless inside the Super AMF field anyway so they couldn't fight in the cradle regardless.
If you really want to, here's a way. Strap one onto each Ace and carry them in this way - it'd be a rocky ride but with the Aces' shielding and all, there's every chance of them making it.
Further, since I've placed the Cradle last, maybe I won't have to think about this problem, because frankly, by the time they are through with Scarlietti's lab, the Forwards might be spent. That's still OK if they helped reduce the Aces' load through Scarlietti's lab, leaving more for the Cradle battle.
As for AMF, they didn't even know about the AMF field until they went in. Therefore, even if we assume you are right in the effects of Super AMF, what should have happened is that they try to bring them in but wind up having to hastily extricate them when the real concentration of AMF became known. Effort does not equate Result, and we get Drama if this is well executed!
Again this assume that even though RF6 always seems to have good sensor coverage and we know that the borgs have at least one EW specialist aboard a huge ancient warship that apparently isn't a huge distance from any of the battle that you can somehow sneak your entire force into range undetected, or that the highly placed spy in your high command doesn’t compromise the plan from the GET go.
Our EW specialist is using Close Visual Reconaissance rather than Wide Area Surveillance. It provides for a good deal of detail but the FOV is low. Certainly the Forwards got nice and close before the Numbers started reacting, even though drones had already spotted their helo. When contact was lost with the helo, you'd notice Quattro did not start sending them vectors. Her sensor net is nice but it ain't God.
I just find the ambush working highly unlikely to begin with. The main reason I find this unlikely is you seem to be constantly ignoring the fact that Jail as a spy within arms reach of the commanding officer of all the ground forces on the planet... I find her being unable to gain a copy of RF6 plan fairly unlikely, or at least getting out a timely order that they're all deploying together.
Command of this operation seems to be an HQ matter. I think Auris explictly stated that Regius has been relieved (a natural consequence) of command. Your spy's gone. Further, Hayate was reporting to Chrono, not Regius. They are barely communicating with Ground Forces - Major Nakajima didn't even seem to know who was acting as their Security Outpost.
Then you assuming you could do it THAT quickly just struck me as pompous. The borgs aren't super mages sure, but they aren't TOTAL chumps.
The Sky Mages weren't total chumps either (at least supposedly). Tre and Sette went through them like... why do you think our aces can't duplicate their performance. Heck, Teana wound up getting them with two little energy balls, which is actually a predictable performance - as one trick ponies, they are weak on defense. Which means sudden bombardments will be effective.
It can't be any more pompous, in any case, than the current plan, which arrogantly assumes the Aces will be able to fight through the odds nearly on their own.
Really the need for a little drama alone would dicate the battle last at least a little while,
No. They can save the drama for the big confrontation. Everyone knows the Ground Numbers are just appetizers. They can be dealt with just like the Drones.
This is my biggest issue with all these attempts at "military logic" all of them are geared to turning this fight into a total fucking curbstomp, which IS what a military would want, but boy is fucking boring to watch animated.
There are many ways to both have Military Logic and Good Drama:
1) Improve the capability of the enemy force, so it'd still be challenging even with proper tactics. Quite frankly, the current capability gap (w/ 2 clearly superior Numbers) b/w the Numbers is really rather funny looking. Equalize that and the fight gets much better.
2) Increase the sheer numbers of the enemy. You'd get fewer points for that but you'd still at least pass.
3) Failed effort. Have one of your scenarios come to pass. Military logic is Effort, not Result. You don't need our Heroines to Suck, just our Villians to be Better.
4) Force the issue. Explicitly state as many limitations as is necessary to force them to use the tactics you want them to use. For example, explicitly have Cradle set up a 300km radius transport jamming field if you want to lock out teleportation. It is best if you had foresight and introduce such limitations over the course of a series, not just inform us right before Final Battle.
5) Blame the chosen tactics on a higher-up, who makes them execute them under threat of execution, since the entire show was h*llbent on smearing them. At least you'd win sympathy points for our heroines.
Well what's she going to do yell “Fight harder!" To her subordinates that are nearly as experienced as her? The point was if something had needed to be communicated urgently or the plan adjusted she could have contacted them to do so. I'd hope that in the time from 17 to this they'd looked at what happened and devised from counter measures. Further even then as I recall telepathy was largely unaffected so even then communications were merely somewhat impeded not severed.
Their telepathic communication was clearly jammed with noise in Ep17.
At the very least, she might have countermanded the ill-advised decision to split inside the Cradle... Vivio vs Nanoha 1on1 may make for drama but it is hardly tactical.
They reduce it to the point that it's barely an issue given the C3 tools at the disposal of a sci-fi group like this.
Actually, I don't see the superiority of their C3 equipment as being to the extent as to compensate for this. The human factor never changes, no matter how many monitors you have.
Agreed, but the forwards can't fight on the cradle and sending Hayate inside seems like a BAD move (if she dies so do BOTH lieutenants, that's canon fact) so at best you have maybe 5 mages (one of whom needs to be protected to ab absurd degree)
And don't you think this "absurdity" says a lot about the way StrikerS' plot and planning was going?
working under a heavy handicap and with their plan possibly compromised from the start by an enemy spy in any case and so possibly ending up facing twice their numbers of cyborgs PLUS drones, and Vivio, and Zest, and maybe Jail too. That could go FUBAR REAL fast.[/quote]
Rather than debate fine points, I'd just say if they used tactics and it did wind up into a disfavorable Battle Royale, that is actually OK. You can have the swell fight AND be tactically sound. Process does not necessarily equal Results, but Process is required when the Results go Bad so our protagonists look good and so the scenes don't look contrived. This is why your argument that Bad tactics is required for swell fights is invalid; even with mediocre thinking and execution there are better possibilities.
RF6 needed to be bigger, at least twice the size IMO, that's what 99.9% of these fights boil down too, but poltics kept it from being as big as it needed to be and they paid for it. (Hardly unheard of see Iraq 2003).
Actually, I think doing Iraq was kinda the big mistake. Ah well.
By the way, if you are right, Hayate's still at fault because it was supposedly her who pushed for this whole Small Unit Rapid Response Unit Concept in the first place!
Bullshit, it was a defeat but it was hardly “losing.” Given that nearly the entire force was still intact and able to continue battle. Ep.17 had some bad calls but many of those where a product of ludicrous limitations placed on RF6 by their commanders.
And who said they had to accept those limitations. For example, if they don't let you bring devices inside, deploy outside and rush in when the trouble starts. I doubt Regius really even wanted them there, so don't be there. Be just outside.
And the only people that need court maritals are the morons in charge of the GFHQ that out of idiotic political posturing made any truly effective preparation nearly impossible. Sadly the head dumbass is already dead, though he richly deserved said death.
The General responsible paid the Ultimate Penalty. But the Lieutenant Colonel is hardly innocent for not making better preparations, a fact even she acknowledges. Her failure to decisively take control of the situation led to 50% losses and the loss of HQ. One might remember that the only reason losses did not turn permanent (deaths) was because of Scarlietti's good graces!
Mirificus
2007-09-13, 13:25
I was reading through Command or Control? Command, Training and Tactics in the British and German Armies, 1888-1918 today. This section seemed all too familiar (directive command is another name for Aufstragtaktik).
Umpiring is a term coined to illustrate the practice in which an officer abdicates his command responsibilities. In both directive command and restrictive control, the commander imposes his will upon his subordinates through the assignment of clear objectives, which he then ensures that his subordinates work to achieve. The umpire, by contrast, having indicated a general mission withdraws rather than spur on their subordinates.
...
While superficially similar, the decentralizing inherent in umpiring is very different from that employed in directive command. The umpire avoid 'interfering' out of an excessive respect for the feelings and reputation of the subordinate. The relationship between the umpire and his subordinate may be considered more important than the attainment of the objective. Decentralization therefore becomes an end in itself.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-13, 19:17
That's why using friends for every one of the officer posts, especially in your first independent command, may not be such a swell idea.
If we assume that Hayate was a good commander, then the difference is that last time, she wasn't in command of friends that she may privately feel an inferiority complex (see Ep14 or thereabouts) towards.
Mirificus
2007-09-13, 20:05
That's why using friends for every one of the officer posts, especially in your first independent command, may not be such a swell idea.
Rein II isn't really in a position to advise Hayate either, let alone saying no to her. Personally, I pretty much gave them a bye on all of that, given the nature of the show, as long as the results were there.
If we assume that Hayate was a good commander, then the difference is that last time, she wasn't in command of friends that she may privately feel an inferiority complex (see Ep14 or thereabouts) towards.
Just so we're clear, which last time are you referring to? Do you mean the airport fire? I'm getting kind of hazy on what evidence there was that Hayate was a good commander after watching so much of Strikers. You did make a pretty good list of what there was to substantiate that in Strikers.
The passages on 'umpiring' seemed like a pretty apt description of what Hayate has been doing since the middle of Strikers. The writers have been pretty consistent in their treatment of her since then.
Avatar_notADV
2007-09-14, 00:39
I realized what's really informing Hayate's (and Nanoha's and Fate's) planning.
They really, genuinely, don't believe they can lose.
Oh, they know it's an intellectual possibility. After all, Nanoha can't get a little emo over "maybe I won't come home one day" with Vivio if she doesn't have any idea of her own mortality. But at the end of the day, the three of them have essentially unlimited faith in their own and each others' abilities. When Nanoha makes a crack about being an invincible ace, or tells Hayate that if it comes to it, the three of them will just have to win alone, -she wasn't kidding-.
From that perspective, their deployment in 21+ makes sense. You put Nanoha on one objective, Fate on one objective, Hayate on one objective, and every last other person you have on the least important one. (If anything, why take Vita along? I'll go along with the "umpiring" comment.)
If anything, why take Vita along?
Someone has to deal with the reactor while Nanoha is saving Vivio.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-15, 00:43
Rein II isn't really in a position to advise Hayate either, let alone saying no to her.
Well, to be fair, she isn't an advisor, deputy commander or chief of staff - the TSAB doesn't use any of these equivalents. From what can be seen, a commander in the TSAB has aides (several ranks lower) and subordinate commanders. That's it.
Personally, I pretty much gave them a bye on all of that, given the nature of the show, as long as the results were there.
We all did. In retrospect, that made us not notice the problem until it was too late.
Just so we're clear, which last time are you referring to? Do you mean the airport fire?
You can use that. In a broader sense, there is a debate on how much command experience Hayate really has. It is more generous to say she has none, yet that practically seems unlikely (Nanoha and Fate were platoon commanders, or at least were qualified to be such).
I'm getting kind of hazy on what evidence there was that Hayate was a good commander after watching so much of Strikers. You did make a pretty good list of what there was to substantiate that in Strikers.
Reread my Aug 20 PM to you.
The passages on 'umpiring' seemed like a pretty apt description of what Hayate has been doing since the middle of Strikers. The writers have been pretty consistent in their treatment of her since then.
Now that I rethink the whole Hayate problem, I think that Hayate is an effective commander, unless it comes to commanding her friends.
Consider Ep2: Hayate was taking command of the firefighters. But if you look at the whole sequence, you'd notice that she does not give any orders to her friends.
Even in Ep21: You'd notice Hayate is directing the Aerial Mages (where is the Air Mage Unit's commander BTW), but she does not give any instructions to her own unit, even when they make the moronic decision to split inside the Cradle.
In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find one incident when Hayate did anything more than assign missions, if that. The scene in Ep14 is almost like Hayate asking for permission to continue to command, with Nanoha and Fate granting it. I can just see some zampolit spitting out Nanoha and Fate's lines in Ep14. You know, "So far, the commander has not made any mistakes. So continue to command proudly!" (I instant-translated it from the original Japanese, so it is different from Yesy, but the gist is the same.)
I think that Avatar is correct in describing Nanoha and Fate's behavior as due to over-optimism (arrogance) regarding their own and each other's abilities. However, I believe that Hayate has faith with other people, yet feels a severe inferiority complex regarding herself in comparison to her friends. As long as she's commanding someone else she's fine, but when it comes to her friends...
Thus, for example in Ep16, Nanoha says she has a commander she can trust. She trusts that Hayate will lead them. However, due to the inferiority complex (which Nanoha and Fate do not see clearly), the truth is that Hayate will not feel up to commanding them when the time comes and so she won't command them effectively, and the house of cards fall down - she can barely umpire, let alone command them.
even when they make the moronic decision to split inside the Cradle.
And what orders do you want her to give? Go to the Throne Room together? Go to the Reactor together? Wait for backup (40 mins) before splitting up while holding off hordes of drones and making no progress?
There is such a thing as trusting the person on site, there's also no point is giving orders when those orders could result in worse outcomes than not giving those orders in the first place.
Mirificus
2007-09-15, 11:16
Well, to be fair, she isn't an advisor, deputy commander or chief of staff - the TSAB doesn't use any of these equivalents. From what can be seen, a commander in the TSAB has aides (several ranks lower) and subordinate commanders. That's it.
That's pretty much what I was getting at. Hayate really could use some sound counsel. A chief of staff, who is a General Staff officer (along the lines of the German General Staff) would be ideal but no such body exists as far as we know. Before that could happen the TSAB would first need to develop sound and thorough doctrine and then train its officers to actually follow it.
We all did. In retrospect, that made us not notice the problem until it was too late.
Sometimes it seems like it would have been better not to have noticed it but even if you ignore that, the writing has far deeper problems like resorting to exposition instead of showing, unnecessary flashbacks and spending time to introduce new characters only to throw them away.
You can use that. In a broader sense, there is a debate on how much command experience Hayate really has. It is more generous to say she has none, yet that practically seems unlikely (Nanoha and Fate were platoon commanders, or at least were qualified to be such).
Does it really seem that unlikely unless we count the Wolkenritter? I don't really see the investigator division rotating its officers to line units unless Hayate requested that with her own initiative. Maybe the Vol.3 DVD ID cards will help clarify matters.
Reread my Aug 20 PM to you.
That's what I was alluding to. I started reading through it once I noticed how little I remembered :)
Now that I rethink the whole Hayate problem, I think that Hayate is an effective commander, unless it comes to commanding her friends.
Consider Ep2: Hayate was taking command of the firefighters. But if you look at the whole sequence, you'd notice that she does not give any orders to her friends.
In that case, the only direction Nanoha and Fate needed was to know likely places to look for people who needed to be rescued. What Hayate did need to make sure of was that the area was clear so she could put out the fire herself.
Even in Ep21: You'd notice Hayate is directing the Aerial Mages (where is the Air Mage Unit's commander BTW), but she does not give any instructions to her own unit, even when they make the moronic decision to split inside the Cradle.
I noticed that too and found it very odd. She seemed to know exactly what she was doing with the Aerial Mages yet took the news that her subordinates were splitting up without any visible reaction. She did nothing to ensure that the objectives in the Cradle would be completed. She didn't even ask Nanoha for a situation report or ask whether Nanoha needed additional support. (She may not have been able to do that directly because of AMF but she could have relayed her comms through the fleet which did have two-way comms with Nanoha and Vita inside the ship).
Decentralization of command to speed up decision making with the belief that the officer on the spot probably best able to assess the situation is appropriate but if it becomes clear that a subordinate's actions are mistaken and threaten the success of the overall intent, the commander is required to intervene.
As commander, Hayate should have been using her personal resources to gain an accurate picture of events and assess whether her subordinates were compromising her plan of action inside the Cradle.
At the same time though, she's fighting to the point that she's physically exhausted because she's also expected to provide so much of RF6's combat power.
In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find one incident when Hayate did anything more than assign missions, if that. The scene in Ep14 is almost like Hayate asking for permission to continue to command, with Nanoha and Fate granting it. I can just see some zampolit spitting out Nanoha and Fate's lines in Ep14. You know, "So far, the commander has not made any mistakes. So continue to command proudly!" (I instant-translated it from the original Japanese, so it is different from Yesy, but the gist is the same.)
Isn't it Carim asking on Hayate's behalf? Watching the scene in isolation, I would have difficulty figuring out that Nanoha and Fate are subordinates of Hayate.
I think that Avatar is correct in describing Nanoha and Fate's behavior as due to over-optimism (arrogance) regarding their own and each other's abilities. However, I believe that Hayate has faith with other people, yet feels a severe inferiority complex regarding herself in comparison to her friends. As long as she's commanding someone else she's fine, but when it comes to her friends...
Avatar's description seems kind of meta-, like it's breaking the fourth wall, but it does seem to fit. Belief their infallibility is over-optimistic at best and they've already had experiences to the contrary (even just taking into account the first season).
That said, Hayate should believe in her subordinates but she also needs to believe in herself. I'm not exactly sure why, but the writers seem content on feeding her inferiority complex so much so that, sadly enough, they even have acting inferior now (like choosing to avoid close combat training).
Thus, for example in Ep16, Nanoha says she has a commander she can trust. She trusts that Hayate will lead them. However, due to the inferiority complex (which Nanoha and Fate do not see clearly), the truth is that Hayate will not feel up to commanding them when the time comes and so she won't command them effectively, and the house of cards fall down - she can barely umpire, let alone command them.
Good, it seems like we can all agree with the umpiring terminology.
Unable to cope effectively with his responsibilities, the umpire withdraws from them. This may take the form of a retreat to the sidelines... form where the umpire may proffer advice to the sidelines... Alternatively, the umpire may revert to an earlier mode in which he felt more effective and ignore the chain of command.
If responsibility is not clearly defined, the natural instinct of the superior will continually lead him to interfere directly in the work of his subordinates instead of judging by its result; the natural instinct of the subordinate will lead him to disclaim responsibility and do nothing without direct orders.
The first part, Hayate has clearly taken to heart. The alternative clearly isn't happening as she has no problems taking responsibility after the fact and she doesn't micromanage her subordinates.
Yet the balance of that quote fits quite well:
The superior is such as case will be overwhelmed with the details of work that could be done equally well by subordinates, to the neglect of his own proper duties; the subordinate is alternatively idle and overworked, ceases to think how the business of his department might be improved, acquiesces in what he knows mistaken, and is only concerned with carrying on his duties sufficiently well not to get in trouble.
Hayate may very well not be umpired herself but she's acting as though she's both an umpire and the subordinate of one.
This fits even better:
With brigade pitted against brigade, the divisional commander had no opportunity to practice his craft; rather, he acted as a trainer to his subordinates. He would set the scenarios, oversee their course and make criticisms afterwards. In short, he was an umpire and his considerable practice of his role, rather than his short time as a commander, may well have predisposed him to confusing the two. Furthermore, he was not tested in these maneuvers, nor was he bonded to his formation through shared experience. The sense of separateness, an important aspect of umpiring, was deeply ingrained through theses exercises.
If you think about it, it describes what's happening with Nanoha and Fate pretty well too. Training is part of commanding a unit but it is not a commander's primary purpose. It is also important for the commander to have realistic training of their own.
Is RF6 fundamentally flawed? Its implementation is certainly so.
Mirificus
2007-09-15, 11:23
And what orders do you want her to give? Go to the Throne Room together? Go to the Reactor together? Wait for backup (40 mins) before splitting up while holding off hordes of drones and making no progress?
There is such a thing as trusting the person on site, there's also no point is giving orders when those orders could result in worse outcomes than not giving those orders in the first place.
I've answered what I expect Hayate to have done that in my reply to arkhangelsk. For convenience's sake, here it is (with a few alterations),
Decentralization of command to speed up decision making with the belief that the officer on the spot probably best able to assess the situation is appropriate but if it becomes clear that a subordinate's actions are mistaken and threaten the success of the overall intent, the commander is required to intervene. You can trust your subordinates but you shouldn't just have blind faith in them. The most certain thing of combat is that it will be uncertain.
Hayate has no real idea what is happening inside the Cradle and she hasn't done anything about that. As commander, she should have been using her personal resources to gain an accurate picture of events and assess whether her subordinates were compromising her plan of action inside the Cradle. Hayate didn't even ask Nanoha for a situation report or ask if she needed additional support (Hayate may not have been able to do that directly because of AMF but she could have relayed her comms through the fleet which did have two-way comms with Nanoha and Vita inside the Cradle). Inaction to the contrary, having sent Nanoha and Vita into the Cradle didn't discharge Hayate of her responsibilities as a commander.
Avatar_notADV
2007-09-15, 22:37
Here's another facet of the relationship...
Hayate's in command of Nanoha and Fate because she has slightly superior power, and administrative skills, and her career path took her in a different direction. She's not operating under the illusion that she has any kind of moral "right" to tell them what to do. She's their superior officer, not their superior.
On top of that, you can make a very real argument that she's also their kouhai. Nanoha and Fate have been at it longer, and definitely have more combat experience, than Hayate. Socially, from a Japanese perspective, Hayate is supposed to be listening to Nanoha and Fate and doing what they say - even though she's technically their superior in a military system, they're her social superiors.
Normal militaries have this problem too. When a green lieutenant is assigned to a unit, one of the things that he has to learn is that he really does need to listen to his sergeants, and take their recommendations, and not overrule them unless he has a damned fine reason to do so. That doesn't mean to play doormat, but giving them free rein when their experience is applicable.
This is further complicated by the fact that Nanoha has a better decision-making record than Hayate and a much better one than Hayate's superiors. If Nanoha had not been prepared to tell TSAB command to piss up a rope, Fate would be dead. If Nanoha and Fate had not done essentially the same thing, Hayate would be dead, along with everything she knew/cared about, plus all of Tokyo would be a smoking crater. So not only does Hayate have subordinates who won't necessarily do what she tells them to do if they feel strongly about it, but ones who she knows are necessarily right to have done so in the past - i.e. she can't even make the claim that "oh, but following orders is the most important thing!" Not without becoming a total hypocrite and losing all their respect anyway, that is.
Ironically, Hayate's actually quite a good commander for Nanoha and Fate, simply because they weigh personal considerations so heavily; with their commander as their friend, they have to keep in mind that anything they do that's too out of line will splash on her too. Assigning them to a random CO would just mean that they'd go do what they want anyway. (In a conventional military, you'd drum an officer like that out of the service. But you can't do that with Nanoha or Fate, because then they're TOTALLY outside your chain of command and running around without a limiter - i.e. even more likely to turn up at an inconvenient moment and make you look really stupid.)
Overall this hasn't been too much of an issue in the series, because nobody's placed them in that kind of situation yet. But (by way of example) if Nanoha is just about to stop the Cradle and Chrono orders Hayate to order Nanoha out of there, Hayate's not going to give that order - and even if she did, Nanoha wouldn't follow it anyway. Of course, Chrono knows all that too, so HE wouldn't give the order, and I'm not sure exactly who's up from him that might give that order themselves (most of the "unfriendly" TSAB command is dead, huh?) Even though, from a purely analytical perspective, it would be the smart thing to do.
Of course, if Nanoha was about doing the smart thing, there'd be a little cross somewhere with "Fate Testarossa" on it instead of all these hot adult Nanoha/Fate pics floating around in the image thread. I'm happy with it this way. ;p
arkhangelsk
2007-09-16, 20:30
That's pretty much what I was getting at. Hayate really could use some sound counsel. A chief of staff, who is a General Staff officer (along the lines of the German General Staff) would be ideal but no such body exists as far as we know. Before that could happen the TSAB would first need to develop sound and thorough doctrine and then train its officers to actually follow it.
It is difficult having a General Staff in the Midchildran system. Never mind getting their officers to actually learn basic tactics, even after they revamp the education system, they face a great contradiction called "Magic".
Magic is highly correlated with intelligence, especially the parts regarding spatial, intelligence, creativity, multitasking ... crack mages thus have high probability of being good General Staff. Yet you'd basically pull them off the line once you send them to staff.
If you pick intelligent guys that are not crack mages, they won't have frontline Lost Logia experience. Without that, they'd have trouble having the legitimacy from experience to influence a frontline crack mage.
Second problem, the TSAB is more police than military, thus the levels of command to influence are squads and platoons, with anything higher being a real minority.
But back to the problem of Chief of Staff: Who could we send? Certainly not anyone we know - they have other duties. Random AAA-S vet mage ... maybe but I bet just the thoughts of limiters and serving under 19 year olds will put him off. Random <AA mage / non-mage = not enough practical experience on Lost Logia matters.
Does it really seem that unlikely unless we count the Wolkenritter? I don't really see the investigator division rotating its officers to line units unless Hayate requested that with her own initiative. Maybe the Vol.3 DVD ID cards will help clarify matters.
It is more like during investigation, they'd have to get a few grunts to help search buildings and the like.
In that case, the only direction Nanoha and Fate needed was to know likely places to look for people who needed to be rescued. What Hayate did need to make sure of was that the area was clear so she could put out the fire herself.
Well, that's why no one commented except in positive terms. However, when one looks back at it after everything, we start to see the seeds of another pattern. It is similar to how splitting up is not necessarily the wrong decision in various episodes, but when you see the sheer frequency of splitting, you start to realize the true pattern...
As commander, Hayate should have been using her personal resources to gain an accurate picture of events and assess whether her subordinates were compromising her plan of action inside the Cradle.
To be fair, what personal resources. Nobody except Quattro knows what's happening in the Cradle...
If you think about it, it describes what's happening with Nanoha and Fate pretty well too. Training is part of commanding a unit but it is not a commander's primary purpose. It is also important for the commander to have realistic training of their own.
Is RF6 fundamentally flawed? Its implementation is certainly so.
Well, despite its flaws, it worked (Ep25-26). In the end, Hayate made at least one right decision. She included enough combat power (not to mention Divine Luck from 7Arcs) that even her complete disregard of correct deployments, the responsibilities of command ... etc couldn't sink the battle for her.
Well, maybe Season 4.
Mirificus
2007-09-16, 23:04
It is difficult having a General Staff in the Midchildran system. Never mind getting their officers to actually learn basic tactics, even after they revamp the education system, they face a great contradiction called "Magic".
Magic is highly correlated with intelligence, especially the parts regarding spatial, intelligence, creativity, multitasking ... crack mages thus have high probability of being good General Staff. Yet you'd basically pull them off the line once you send them to staff.
If you pick intelligent guys that are not crack mages, they won't have frontline Lost Logia experience. Without that, they'd have trouble having the legitimacy from experience to influence a frontline crack mage.
Whatever the source of their mages, they would have to rotate between general staff and line positions. To do anything else would both alienate the general staff officers from the line officers to an unacceptable degree and leave the general staff officers without any real command experience.
A general staff wouldn't be of any real use until the TSAB has a sound body of doctrine to draw. For that to happen, the TSAB would need to be able to draw the right lessons from its experiences and train its forces properly so that it can test them and then learn from those.
Second problem, the TSAB is more police than military, thus the levels of command to influence are squads and platoons, with anything higher being a real minority.
No disagreement here.
But back to the problem of Chief of Staff: Who could we send? Certainly not anyone we know - they have other duties. Random AAA-S vet mage ... maybe but I bet just the thoughts of limiters and serving under 19 year olds will put him off. Random <AA mage / non-mage = not enough practical experience on Lost Logia matters.
If they don't trust Hayate, it would be all the more reason to have a general staff officer equivalent as chief of staff... that is... if they could find one :heh:
Well, that's why no one commented except in positive terms. However, when one looks back at it after everything, we start to see the seeds of another pattern. It is similar to how splitting up is not necessarily the wrong decision in various episodes, but when you see the sheer frequency of splitting, you start to realize the true pattern...
I don't quite follow exactly. Could you elaborate a bit?
To be fair, what personal resources. Nobody except Quattro knows what's happening in the Cradle...
That's the problem. She left herself with no credible reserve. She didn't have any uncommitted troops as far as she was aware of besides Shamal.
Vice and Zafira weren't even aware that they would be able to fight until half way through the episode, let alone Hayate. It might be nice to assign Shamal and Zafira's actions to Hayate taking advantage of a good opportunity by committing them at the right time in the right place once she was aware that they were available. However, we don't really know if their actions were independent or not and with the writers usual intent when it comes to Hayate...
Although I did kind of like how she just went in herself finally. Sometimes there's no replacement for personal observation. Once she was unisoned, she had no problems moving through the Cradle unescorted. Maybe she should have kept Rein closer at hand instead of sending her off to fail with Signum.
Well, despite its flaws, it worked (Ep25-26). In the end, Hayate made at least one right decision. She included enough combat power (not to mention Divine Luck from 7Arcs) that even her complete disregard of correct deployments, the responsibilities of command ... etc couldn't sink the battle for her.
Well, maybe Season 4.
Kind of hard for her to defy plot edict, isn't it? ;) Yes, the battle was won, yet the victory feels tainted because the artifice of having Hayate's decisions working based not on their merit, but because the plot dictated that she should win, was all too apparent.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-17, 07:08
Kind of hard for her to defy plot edict, isn't it? ;) Yes, the battle was won, yet the victory feels tainted because the artifice of having Hayate's decisions working based not on their merit, but because the plot dictated that she should win, was all too apparent.
To be really fair about all the Hayate shafting, I'm convinced that it is done after detailed research into not only the likings, but fan perception.
I mean, just go to FanFiction.net and let me know when you find one FanFic that portrayed Hayate in a truly positive light. Because I hadn't located it yet.
I remember her remaining at CP while Nanoha and Fate were beaten to near death by Scarlietti in Satashi's Fanfics (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3585048/1/6th_Division_Reminisce), and then left out in their final confrontation with Scarlietti.
I remember her being beaten (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3695857/1/Eight_Cups_of_Wine) and nearly killed by some random guys with weapons that speak Spanish. Some random OC character that happened to be a family relation saved her there.
Or how about her being the only person to wimp out in PTSD against the French-speaking "Gospel" devices (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3190047/1/Magical_Girl_Lyrical_Nanoha_AlternateS) or whatever. Yes, I know the opposition was tough in that one, but PTSD?
I just read a recent FanFic (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3786839/2/Mahou_Shoujo_Lyrical_Nanoha_Overdrive)-in-progress where she's beaten again by random mages from a random rival mage group.
And of course the others that treat Hayate as a cosplay queen and all that. The only one that comes close is Redemption.
The only possibility is the Academy Blues series, and that's because it hadn't caught my favor and thus I hadn't skimmed it, but even if it was, that only makes one.
Individually, the stories have reasons and needs to shaft Hayate (thus I can't really fault them on this basis). Yet, if we assume this sample is at all representative of what is being written on the Web, when they are taken in aggregate by a 7Arcs researching for ideas and views, what would they conclude?
Are you going to read that stuff and conclude fans think of Hayate as a great commander that heroically goes forward and fights on the front line? Doubt it. That's probably why they shafted her - they read this kind of FanFic and decided that's what the fans think of Hayate and altered their image of her to match... :frustrated::frustrated::frustrated:
Or how about her being the only person to wimp out in PTSD against the French-speaking "Gospel" devices (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3190047/1/Magical_Girl_Lyrical_Nanoha_AlternateS) or whatever. Yes, I know the opposition was tough in that one, but PTSD?WAIT! I have a share in that fic! And I know that that isn't the end!
While I didn't exactly agree with Saint X's portrayal if Hayate as such, he said that she'll grow from that experience, and become a leader from there. In a way, it was inspired by Simon of Gurren-Lagann's march to power. X convinced me that a sweet Kansai-ben girl is no warrior, but both of us agreed that Hayate had the strength to grow from it.
In fact, she's one of the key plot holders in the story. It's because of StrikerS' release that we had to HALT production of AlternateS so that we don't start stumbling over canon obstacles; if StrikerS NEVER existed, I'm sure we'll be seeing Hayate in a different light. We just need 3 more chapters to get to the part where she wakes up and "arrives".
Also, for my FileS series of mini-fics, I planned Hayate to be the planner and overseer, while still in keeping with her good nature. And I need more time to write my fics beyond mere prologues! Like X, I stopped the FileS once StrikerS came out.
She IS the de facto leader of the Aces and the Wolkies after all; there's no way I would've let Hayate remained a wimp! :mad:
Granted, there's no way 7Arcs would've known that. But I'm just a little peeved because X and I planned otherwise, but we ended up lumped with the other OOCers. We just needed time...
To be really fair about all the Hayate shafting, I'm convinced that it is done after detailed research into not only the likings, but fan perception.
I mean, just go to FanFiction.net and let me know when you find one FanFic that portrayed Hayate in a truly positive light. Because I hadn't located it yet.
they read this kind of FanFic and decided that's what the fans think of Hayate and altered their image of her to match...
I don't know about you, but I consider that opinion to be slightly naive. Throughout the production of StrikerS, the perception of fans putside Japan was irrelavant. The opinions of people on this forum are nothing to them, the potrayal of their characters in fanfics on Fanficion.net mean less than nothing to them. It has less than a hundred fics for a three year-old franchise. That you can say that the Japanese creators even bother to read english fanfics and consider it to be a reliable guage of fan perception boggles my mind.
If you have examples from Japanese fandom showing that this was what Japanese fans wanted and that 7arcs really was catering to it, you might have a case. But I think you don't now.
Furthermore, take a look at the dates of when those example fanfics of yours were uploaded. For most, it was after StrikerS had already shown how shafted Hayate was. The fanfic writers were reacting to what they saw, not the other way around. No amount of research by 7arcs could have uncovered anything like what you said when those very fics did not exist until after they were done shafting her.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-17, 19:21
I don't know about you, but I consider that opinion to be slightly naive. Throughout the production of StrikerS, the perception of fans putside Japan was irrelavant. The opinions of people on this forum are nothing to them, the potrayal of their characters in fanfics on Fanficion.net mean less than nothing to them. It has less than a hundred fics for a three year-old franchise. That you can say that the Japanese creators even bother to read english fanfics and consider it to be a reliable guage of fan perception boggles my mind.
I'd agree. But I also said:
Yet, if we assume this sample is at all representative of what is being written on the Web
From what little of what I've seen of Japanese fandom, it also isn't particularly flattering. And of course, if Japanese fandom really did the complete opposite, my theory falls. But I see little sign of it.
Furthermore, take a look at the dates of when those example fanfics of yours were uploaded. For most, it was after StrikerS had already shown how shafted Hayate was. The fanfic writers were reacting to what they saw, not the other way around. No amount of research by 7arcs could have uncovered anything like what you said when those very fics did not exist until after they were done shafting her.
Some are, I'd agree. But some, such as AlternateS, definitely are written before StrikerS. Some are also written around the middle, sometime before they started really shafting Hayate, such as Satashi's, which ended in June (that's about Ep12).
arkhangelsk
2007-09-17, 20:46
WAIT! I have a share in that fic! And I know that that isn't the end!
I didn't know that at first reading, but I can see that from the fact your Silvanus is in the story.
While I didn't exactly agree with Saint X's portrayal if Hayate as such, he said that she'll grow from that experience, and become a leader from there. In a way, it was inspired by Simon of Gurren-Lagann's march to power. X convinced me that a sweet Kansai-ben girl is no warrior, but both of us agreed that Hayate had the strength to grow from it.
As I've said before, each story probably has its own plot and character growth necessities, so it is not like I blame you or Saint X, or the other guys who wrote the other FanFics that got put up as examples in my previous post. Let's get this out of the way first - I enjoyed many of them.
Nevertheless, if we have ten thousand stories, and most of them, through one plot necessity or another, make Hayate a wimp, a researcher likely won't care - he'd just aggregate it into a report and we'd have our unfortunate result.
And of course, as JimmyC said, all of us put together probably don't make up 1% of any influences that tipped StrikerS one way or another. If my theory is right, it is the much more prolific Japanese writers (however, I've yet to bump into a Japanese Nanoha Fanfic, even though I've seen a couple of Nanoha parody comics, none of which are all that flattering in this respect either - cosplay Hayate may be good for a few laughs but it won't make 7Arcs write her nicely), that made the difference, not really us.
But then, if Chaos2Frozen can blame our comments here for causing an overabundance of NxF, I can certainly point to the FanFiction made here... not so much because we made a difference ourselves, but that we are probably representative of those Japanese that made the difference :D
In fact, she's one of the key plot holders in the story. It's because of StrikerS' release that we had to HALT production of AlternateS so that we don't start stumbling over canon obstacles; if StrikerS NEVER existed, I'm sure we'll be seeing Hayate in a different light. We just need 3 more chapters to get to the part where she wakes up and "arrives".
I saw the hints of the next arc. But the next arc was never published.
There is always something called Alternate Universe (it is AlternateS after all), you know. Now that StrikerS is nearly done (and rather uh, sublime), you know which places you have to avoid, and can branch off. I for one would like to see an ending.
Granted, there's no way 7Arcs would've known that. But I'm just a little peeved because X and I planned otherwise, but we ended up lumped with the other OOCers. We just needed time...
Well, if you believe there's a 4th season, here's your chance to just be 0.01% of the force influenceing 7Arcs :D
I'd agree. But I also said:
Yet, if we assume this sample is at all representative of what is being written on the Web
Forgive for not mentioning this clearly in my previous post. But I consider that assumption to be highly unwarranted. Which is why I wrote that. To extrapolate a global pattern based on less than 10 out of 80 fanfics on fanfiction.net seems to be the height of arrogance to me. To then consider that to be a majority fan desire is, well... beyond my ability to describe.
From what little of what I've seen of Japanese fandom, it also isn't particularly flattering. And of course, if Japanese fandom really did the complete opposite, my theory falls. But I see little sign of it.
Unflattering in what sense? As in lacking creativity? Unflattering in their potrayal of Hayate? Are you seriously suggesting some 7arcs staff member going, "the majority of fan material indicates interest in Hayate not doing well in commanding, we should pursue that angle"?
Nevertheless, if we have ten thousand stories, and most of them, through one plot necessity or another, make Hayate a wimp, a researcher likely won't care - he'd just aggregate it into a report and we'd have our unfortunate result.
Your biggest problem is there aren't as many "Hayate as a wimp" stories as you imagine. There were even less pre-StrikerS. If anything, the major trend such a report would state is a preference for NxF interaction. You gave only one, one, example of a "Hayate as a wimp" fic that was written pre-StrikerS, AlternateS. That's barely 2.5% of the less than 80 Nanoha fics on fanfic.net at the time. Even extrapolating that to a global pattern as you did, it can hardly be considered a major trend, right?
And about the fics written as StrikerS aired? Consider this, episode production is usually ahead of airing by 4 to 8 weeks. By the time the creators can guage fan reaction to an episode, it's already too late to make major changes to the next 4 episodes, at least.
With your detailed criticism of tactics in various discussions here, I'm suprised you were unaware of the dangers of making an unwarranted assumption.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-18, 05:20
Forgive for not mentioning this clearly in my previous post. But I consider that assumption to be highly unwarranted. Which is why I wrote that. To extrapolate a global pattern based on less than 10 out of 80 fanfics on fanfiction.net seems to be the height of arrogance to me. To then consider that to be a majority fan desire is, well... beyond my ability to describe.
That's mostly because most of the others do not portray Hayate or only portray her marginally. Obviously, FanFics that do not portray Hayate one way or another do not get counted - they cannot even really be counted as "Abstain" because for all we know, they just hadn't written a story yet.
A weak trend, if it has no measurable countertrend, can be used as the basis for calculations. If there was a significant "resistance movement", any "shaft Hayate" movement will require overwhelming superiority to convince the writers to take the risk. But if there's no measurable resistance, even a moderate or weak trend may be enough to push them over the edge.
Unflattering in what sense? As in lacking creativity? Unflattering in their potrayal of Hayate? Are you seriously suggesting some 7arcs staff member going, "the majority of fan material indicates interest in Hayate not doing well in commanding, we should pursue that angle"?
From the last two paragraphs, you seem to confuse "perception" (which I'm measuring) rather than "desire" (which is something else). I would think that few hate Hayate enough to desire that she stank. In fact, I think most people do not particularly desire NxF to be a lesbian couple - after all, "straights" are still the majority in this world. But perception is a whole different hobbyhorse.
Here's what I do see as a possibility, assuming I'm right in my presumption (of course, I could be wrong - I can hardly scan all of Japanese fandom even if my Japanese improved from "able to make out comics" to fluency):
Ep 12 ends, and say the Ep16-17 planning cycle begins:
Director: "OK, in Ep16, we have the Numbers attack Ground Forces HQ and roll over RF6's HQ."
"12 Numbers against Ground Forces HQ? Not possible."
Director: "What if we shaft the HQ? They have no defenses against ground divers. Their reactor has no security. Everyone inside has to be disarmed..."
"Uh, OK, but who would believe this uberincompetence, even in a mahou shoujo anime. At the very least, we need a scapegoat."
Director: "Regius. We made him a butthole since his debut Ep10. It won't be hard to convince the audience this is all his fault..."
"Uhh... we are planning to have Hayate's RF6 join in the security effort, right?"
Director: "Yeah, so what."
"She'd have to agree to this moronic deployment."
Director: "True. Could be a problem. Contact Intelligence. Have them research what our fans think of Hayate."
Intelligence: "Won't be a problem sir. Contrary to our initial hopes, Hayate is not a very popular character. It is obvious. There are like 10 H-doujin for Nanoha and Fate for every one of Hayate's. Most FanFics concentrate on NxF. In most cases, Hayate is definitely a sideline character."
"Yeah, we kind of noticed that in our pre StrikerS survey, but she's still nominally a "good guy" commander, not like Regius. Would people mind us making her an imbecile?"
Intelligence: "No worries. The few people that do write about Hayate do not write about her in a positive light. Never mind H-doujin, they make every character an idiot so as to have their cheap, lame sex scenes. In popular webcomics, she's portrayed as a cosplay queen who thinks of little other than cosplay - even in a parody, choosing to over-emphasize this trait says a lot."
Director: "What about the gaijin. They aren't much, but they do buy our DVDs, albeit at half price or thereabouts. And they are often more discerning customers - many of them actually analyze the tactics used. Thus they are a fast way to gain some insight regarding our smarter Japanese customers without the pain of wading through 2ch. Might want to care a bit about them too."
Intelligence: "Oh, no worries. They are about the same as our fans - they care only about NxF. The few of them who do write about her ... look at this one, AlternateS [Sorry there, Kha :D]. We arguably tried to portray the opposite in Nanoha A's, we wrote the OPPOSITE in the A's to StrikerS manga, and still this happened."
"Anything to refute this hypothesis? One FanFic sounds a bit weak."
Intelligence: "Given the limited total pool, of which some are short stories, some are light stories and so many are NxF, and all we are lucky to have one for the measurement! Furthermore, not a single person complained about that characterization - Westerners are picky, and if they had a problem with the characterization at least ONE would have spoken up by now! The overall indications are clear. Japanese or gaijin, no one cares if Hayate suddenly disappeared off the face of Midchildra or turns into a dolt. And no, there's absolutely nothing to substantiate the opposite hypothesis. At least some people disagree rather violently with NxF!"
Director: "Right, let's give it a try then. Shaft both Regius and Hayate. Put in action and lots of Subaru angst to divert the few who cares about these things, got it? Intelligence, continue trying to confirm or deny the hypothesis!"
All: "Sir, yes sir!"
If there was a significant "resistance movement", any "shaft Hayate" movement will require overwhelming superiority to convince the writers to take the risk. But if there's no measurable resistance, even a moderate or weak trend may be enough to push them over the edge.
So this is what your arguement has fallen to? First, you write as if the majority of fics have "Hayate as a wimp". Then, I point out that only one such fic was ever in a position to influence the creators, unlikely as it may be. Now, you argue that a "weak" trend is good enough? Can't you see how much your argument has dissipated already? Why do you insist on blaming fans for this situation? Are you willing to grasp at straws just to get the last word in? Just let it go already!
... I am very confused, I believe that Hayate got portrayed as incompetent accidentally simply due to the show's failure to set aside enough time for development, particularly in showing how Hayate got her rank and how good of a commander she is.
Anyways, just remember the MST3K mantra: It's just a show, I should really just relax.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-18, 07:59
So this is what your arguement has fallen to? First, you write as if the majority of fics have "Hayate as a wimp".
Now you are putting words in my mouth that I've never said. I showed several examples that showed an ongoing trend. Because most fics IIRC are not about Hayate, it is obvious that a majority of fics cannot by definition have it.
Can't you see how much your argument has dissipated already? Why do you insist on blaming fans for this situation?
Because IMO it is very hard to believe that they would dare shaft a main character to the extent they did unless they reconnoitered and thought it would be relatively safe to do so. You can begin shafting at any time, but shafting someone that badly is not easily reversed.
As for the accident theory, it is hard to see how making comics (Ep14.5) like not being able to beat Caro in 1v1 is some kind of accident.
And why do you think I'm blaming the fans? I've made every effort to show that I'm not blaming anyone for anything. If I'm right, then it is just something that ... happened.
I'd also confess that due to a miscalculation of episode scheduling, I thought there were two FanFiction.net Fics before the planning phase for Ep17 (which everyone appreciates the criticality of), and there was actually only one with the other about halfway through (thanks for pointing it out). However, I would still disagree with you that post Ep-13 FanFics (and other fanwork, discussion ... etc) have no effect on the situation (if one assumes such fanwork, even 2chan fanwork, had any effect on the story to begin with).
Obviously, it is too late for Ep17, but they could still reverse course partially for Ep21 (a few changes would already make Hayate look much better even if the same ultimate decision is employed) and later if they felt like it, in which case perceived blame for Ep17 would probably go to Regius. Once Ep21 went, it became very hard to reverse, because Regius is no longer there as a dartboard.
One more thing to consider. You will notice that at the last ditch Hayate shows up for Ep25. They even reversed their comic position (Ep14.5, the one that says Hayate can only use magic standing - obviously Ep25 says different).
Why then? What has changed? Could it be that the uproar from Ep21 managed to reach 7Arcs' ears (plus the echoes of weeks thereafter), making them realize their misread just in time to make one last hasty correction? Maybe. It is one of the things we would never know.
Are you willing to grasp at straws just to get the last word in? Just let it go already!
Very well... as you wish.
I didn't know that at first reading, but I can see that from the fact your Silvanus is in the story.Nitty Picky: It's not my Silvanus (Silvana actually. :D), it's X's. I had a share because X decided to star me in the fic (Hence there's a character named Kha there.) :p
Sorry... :heh:
As I've said before, each story probably has its own plot and character growth necessities, so it is not like I blame you or Saint X, or the other guys who wrote the other FanFics that got put up as examples in my previous post. Let's get this out of the way first - I enjoyed many of them.
Nevertheless, if we have ten thousand stories, and most of them, through one plot necessity or another, make Hayate a wimp, a researcher likely won't care - he'd just aggregate it into a report and we'd have our unfortunate result.
And of course, as JimmyC said, all of us put together probably don't make up 1% of any influences that tipped StrikerS one way or another. If my theory is right, it is the much more prolific Japanese writers (however, I've yet to bump into a Japanese Nanoha Fanfic, even though I've seen a couple of Nanoha parody comics, none of which are all that flattering in this respect either - cosplay Hayate may be good for a few laughs but it won't make 7Arcs write her nicely), that made the difference, not really us.
But then, if Chaos2Frozen can blame our comments here for causing an overabundance of NxF, I can certainly point to the FanFiction made here... not so much because we made a difference ourselves, but that we are probably representative of those Japanese that made the difference :DI'm not discounting this. Especially when canon started refering to stuff cook up in the OC thread, we were pleasantly shocked to bits.
I saw the hints of the next arc. But the next arc was never published.
There is always something called Alternate Universe (it is AlternateS after all), you know. Now that StrikerS is nearly done (and rather uh, sublime), you know which places you have to avoid, and can branch off. I for one would like to see an ending.Because we got so many factors right (the Seiou being a centerpiece of the story was the biggest jackpot of them all), we felt that it was a waste to turn it AU, so we grudgingly stopped it for now.
Well, if you believe there's a 4th season, here's your chance to just be 0.01% of the force influenceing 7Arcs :DWe ARE! Welcome to the OC Thread S4 Project. Hopefully we can turn it into a fic, instead of just random thoughts. :D
Maye the TSAB was a military force at one point in time. But it seems to have degenerated into a bureaucratic organisation, which makes it completly ineffective in a true conflict scenario.
Which what we have seen in SS.
My (not so professional) analysis about TSAB and Riot Force 6 going screwed:
1. Like many others said, TSAB, is not a rigid military force, rather more like paramilitary or police division.
2. TSAB is not familiar with idea of getting attacked. For many years, it is implied that Bureau's job are only managing stuff like Lost Logia hunting, disasters, mage enlisting and management, hunting criminals, never going out war or such. Like when US got 9/11, in a manner.
3. Hayate & Co. itself are not trained and having experience as defender, they were trained as attacker. Look at their record, Hayate & her knights as Special Investigator specialized in Lost Logia implying that they after Lost Logia and no other way around, Fate as Enforcer who intercept enemies in Asura, and Nanoha as Tactical Instructor, which from the training session, is more focused on offense rather than defense.
4. Defensive status requiring sturdy, disciplined and strong-willed personnel. A good example for this is Olivia Miller Armstrong's company on Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist manga, yeah, I'm a fan). Hayate's troops are determined and strong-willed, yes, I believe, but sturdy and disciplined? That's another story.
Mirificus
2007-09-19, 13:23
My (not so professional) analysis about TSAB and Riot Force 6 going screwed:
1. Like many others said, TSAB, is not a rigid military force, rather more like paramilitary or police division.
Regardless of political dogma and additional responsibilities, the TSAB is still being expected to function as a military force. The TSAB is responsible for the primary defense of Midchilda and countless other worlds and it has control over their combined ground, air and naval forces.
2. TSAB is not familiar with idea of getting attacked. For many years, it is implied that Bureau's job are only managing stuff like Lost Logia hunting, disasters, mage enlisting and management, hunting criminals, never going out war or such. Like when US got 9/11, in a manner.
Germany had no wars between 1919-1938, yet it managed to improve the quality of its army dramatically. While there is no replacement for combat experience, realistic training coupled with well-tested well thought out tactical doctrine and thorough and effective applied leadership training can go a long way. The TSAB has clearly been in wars in the past should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of its member worlds. It even has officers with current and relevant combat experience yet it is unable to draw upon that experience to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.
What have we seen of their training? Nanoha is supposed to be one of the TSAB's best instructors yet she's had a cascade of recent training failures. Hayate went through command training but she can barely get by through umpiring a platoon-sized command.
To put it bluntly, TSAB training sucks.
3. Hayate & Co. itself are not trained and having experience as defender, they were trained as attacker. Look at their record, Hayate & her knights as Special Investigator specialized in Lost Logia implying that they after Lost Logia and no other way around, Fate as Enforcer who intercept enemies in Asura, and Nanoha as Tactical Instructor, which from the training session, is more focused on offense rather than defense.
Attack and defense are both intrinsic to military operations whether they're offensive or defensive. One of the most effective ways of stopping an enemy attack is by using a well timed and well placed counterattack. This is true in the face of modern weapons from the operational down to the tactical level.
During offensive operations, troops won't constantly be attacking and when they're not attacking, they'll be defending whether they like or not. Even during successful offensive operations, attacking forces will commonly be placed in situations where they'll need to adopt defensive postures. For an example, take a look at this diagram:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9217/figure5yo0.th.gif (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=figure5yo0.gif)
Once you've surrounded and pocketed an enemy force during an offensive operation, your offensive force has to adopt a defensive posture until the pocket can be reduced. In the meantime, until the enemy force can be convinced that their situation is hopeless and surrenders, the offensive force has to defend both from breakout attacks from within the pocket and relief attempts from outside the pocket. Poor defensive capabilities place the attacking forces in danger of being overrun and weaken its defensive ring around the pocket, allowing more of the enemy force to escape.
If you're training for offensive operations, for the training to be effective you need to train to conduct both attack and defense.
4. Defensive status requiring sturdy, disciplined and strong-willed personnel. A good example for this is Olivia Miller Armstrong's company on Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist manga, yeah, I'm a fan). Hayate's troops are determined and strong-willed, yes, I believe, but sturdy and disciplined? That's another story.
All things being equal, defending is easier than attacking. Offenses are much more demanding on leadership, troops and equipment. There's no way of getting around that. If Hayate and her forces don't have the training or leadership to be effective in defensive operations then the implication is that offensive operations are impossible for the unit.
Regardless of political dogma and additional responsibilities, the TSAB is still being expected to function as a military force. The TSAB is responsible for the primary defense of Midchilda and countless other worlds and it has control over their combined ground, air and naval forces.But has TSAB 'ever' fought a war?
But I also suspect that the TSAB has a cultural bias against real warfare. For the pre-magic era was very violent and they may associate proper tactics with that era.
And the rules limiting the firepower for units is a clue for this.
To put it bluntly, TSAB training sucks.
snip
If you're training for offensive operations, for the training to be effective you need to train to handle both attack and defense.So true.
All things being equal, defending is easier than attacking. Offenses are much more demanding on leadership, troops and equipment. There's no way of getting around that. If Hayate and her forces don't have the training or leadership to be effective in defensive operations then the implication is that offensive operations are impossible for the unit.But do they train for a real offensive or just strikes? It seems to me that they just use quick strikes in a hope to take out key objectives.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-19, 19:12
Germany had no wars between 1919-1938, yet it managed to improve the quality of its army dramatically. While there is no replacement for combat experience, realistic training coupled with well-tested well thought out tactical doctrine and thorough and effective applied leadership training can go a long way. The TSAB has clearly been in wars in the past should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of its member worlds. It even has officers with current and relevant combat experience yet it is unable to draw upon that experience to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.
To be fair, Germany had a really nice situation there. The Captains of WWI that were retained even after Versailles were just in time to be the Generals of WWII, so the continuity link was not lost. The TSAB was ostensibly at peace for over a century.
Which is not to say that the level of demonstrated incompetence isn't the TSAB's fault.
Regardless of political dogma and additional responsibilities, the TSAB is still being expected to function as a military force. The TSAB is responsible for the primary defense of Midchilda and countless other worlds and it has control over their combined ground, air and naval forces.
Germany had no wars between 1919-1938, yet it managed to improve the quality of its army dramatically. While there is no replacement for combat experience, realistic training coupled with well-tested well thought out tactical doctrine and thorough and effective applied leadership training can go a long way. The TSAB has clearly been in wars in the past should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of its member worlds. It even has officers with current and relevant combat experience yet it is unable to draw upon that experience to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.
They managed to do it since most of their commander and personnels (which downright angry for Versailles stuff) is not captured/ banished. And when the chance come, their vigilance paid off.
What have we seen of their training? Nanoha is supposed to be one of the TSAB's best instructors yet she's had a cascade of recent training failures. Hayate went through command training but she can barely get by through umpiring a platoon-sized command.
To put it bluntly, TSAB training sucks.
And only against a single person, which the mindset and philosophy didn't match with her, and instinctively is going against her.
Attack and defense are both intrinsic to military operations whether they're offensive or defensive. One of the most effective ways of stopping an enemy attack is by using a well timed and well placed counterattack. This is true in the face of modern weapons from the operational down to the tactical level.
During offensive operations, troops won't constantly be attacking and when they're not attacking, they'll be defending whether they like or not. Even during successful offensive operations, attacking forces will commonly be placed in situations where they'll need to adopt defensive postures. For an example, take a look at this diagram:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9217/figure5yo0.th.gif (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=figure5yo0.gif)
Once you've surrounded and pocketed an enemy force during an offensive operation, your offensive force has to adopt a defensive posture until the pocket can be reduced. In the meantime, until the enemy force can be convinced that their situation is hopeless and surrenders, the offensive force has to defend both from breakout attacks from within the pocket and relief attempts from outside the pocket. Poor defensive capabilities place the attacking forces in danger of being overrun and weaken its defensive ring around the pocket, allowing more of the enemy force to escape.
If you're training for offensive operations, for the training to be effective you need to train to conduct both attack and defense.
All things being equal, defending is easier than attacking. Offenses are much more demanding on leadership, troops and equipment. There's no way of getting around that. If Hayate and her forces don't have the training or leadership to be effective in defensive operations then the implication is that offensive operations are impossible for the unit.
First, I must admit that my military knowledge is born from Internet, stories, and some war-related movie, manga and anime, some of them being Gundam SEED series and Fullmetal Alchemist.
In my mind, while it is true that defending is (seems) much more easy than attacking, the mindset of Hayate & Co is not suited to the idea of defending. Like you said, attacking requires leadership (Fate and Nanoha clearly are battle-proven from 9 y.o., Hayate & Co. also), troops (Forwards are quit impressive), and good equipment (ask Shari). But to adapt to battlefield in attacking, you need another mindset: creativity and aggressive mindset. To determine the weak point of enemy, strike them in weak places, to maneuver around enemies strong point, etc.
But to defend, you need, constant vigilance (typo from Moody, I know), sturdy but flexible enough army, which can withstand any kind of attack, can quickly adapted and moved as a single entity, and can stand still against anything thrown in front of them (this philosophy is borrowed from Olivia Milla Armstrong).
But has TSAB 'ever' fought a war?
But I also suspect that the TSAB has a cultural bias against real warfare. For the pre-magic era was very violent and they may associate proper tactics with that era.
And the rules limiting the firepower for units is a clue for this.
So true.
But do they train for a real offensive or just strikes? It seems to me that they just use quick strikes in a hope to take out key objectives.
Can't agree more to this.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-19, 22:35
They managed to do it since most of their commander and personnels (which downright angry for Versailles stuff) is not captured/ banished. And when the chance come, their vigilance paid off.
A valid point. If they had waited another 20 years, maybe it would have decayed.
And only against a single person, which the mindset and philosophy didn't match with her, and instinctively is going against her.
Actually, from our (Mirificus and my) POV, Teana is the only one who actually came out more or less right, despite that little blowup. Everyone's combat skills may have improved, but their mentality was all wrong and never corrected. It wasn't an offensive mentality. It wasn't even a defensive mentality. It was closer to a Pacifist Mentality, and that is just all wrong for a combat unit.
I suspect it was because Teana originally had the right mentality to begin with, and that Ep8-9 incident just knocked off a rough edge, thus Nanoha had little credit for it.
First, I must admit that my military knowledge is born from Internet, stories, and some war-related movie, manga and anime, some of them being Gundam SEED series and Fullmetal Alchemist.
In my mind, while it is true that defending is (seems) much more easy than attacking, the mindset of Hayate & Co is not suited to the idea of defending. Like you said, attacking requires leadership (Fate and Nanoha clearly are battle-proven from 9 y.o., Hayate & Co. also), troops (Forwards are quit impressive), and good equipment (ask Shari). But to adapt to battlefield in attacking, you need another mindset: creativity and aggressive mindset. To determine the weak point of enemy, strike them in weak places, to maneuver around enemies strong point, etc.
Not that anyone, except for Teana, ultimately did that. You can actually classify all of Ep21-25 as a counteroffensive. It was all wrong from the get-go. The only decision Hayate seemed to have got adequately right was in initial personnel selection, which managed to (along with 7Arcs intervention) make up for everything else she failed to do.
But to defend, you need, constant vigilance (typo from Moody, I know), sturdy but flexible enough army, which can withstand any kind of attack, can quickly adapted and moved as a single entity, and can stand still against anything thrown in front of them (this philosophy is borrowed from Olivia Milla Armstrong).
Actually, what a police force needs to handle is Security with some offensives. What we are shown demonstrates that TSAB's offensive planning (Ep21, of course, but also Ep24, where a failure of flank security apparently caused the wipeout of all of Zest's old unit) and security planning (Ep7, Ep17), as well as meeting engagement (Ep11-12) is lacking.
So, if you can't attack, you can't defend/security and you can't handle meeting engagements .. well, what's left.
Mirificus
2007-09-19, 23:30
But do they train for a real offensive or just strikes? It seems to me that they just use quick strikes in a hope to take out key objectives.
Training for direct action and raids would require much more extensive training beyond what I was already suggesting.
A valid point. If they had waited another 20 years, maybe it would have decayed.
I used the example of the Reichsheer because it was able to consistently draw the right lessons from its combat experiences, rewrite or create new doctrine as appropriate based on those lessons and effectively disseminating that doctrine within its officers and troops. It is pretty much the anti-TSAB. The Kaiserheer, the Soviet Army 1941-45 and the US Army in the 1980s are also successful examples of that process.
The TSAB has should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of itself and its member worlds. It has officers with current and relevant combat experience to work with if it needs to develop or modify its existing doctrine yet it is unable to draw upon any of its experiences to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.
If the TSAB has any kind of tactical doctrine, its effect is so negligible that it may as well not exist at all. The only thing the TSAB has managed to successfully imbue its officers and troops is that if they're not splitting up, then they're probably doing something terribly wrong.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-20, 00:52
If the TSAB has any kind of tactical doctrine, its effect is so negligible that it may as well not exist at all. The only thing the TSAB has managed to successfully imbue its officers and troops is that if they're not splitting up, then they're probably doing something terribly wrong.
To be fair to them, their statistics may have favored this doctrine. Their current doctrine is, "Cover all threat axes. Protect all citizens." Since the TSAB is a police force first, it can generally count on a lot of guys to handle everday work and have enough reserves to cover every front. Thus handling every front may have statistically worked.
A problem with history is that there is almost always counter-examples, and there are always ways to interpret even a single event in multiple ways. Arguably, history can be used to back almost any position.
For example, StrikerS' ending actually will be interpreted by TSAB Historians as an example favoring dispersal of forces. With the current result, historians will no longer care about how close and contrived-level lucky the whole thing was. Instead, they will note how the presence of the Forwards supported the sagging GF frontline. And all the objectives did get achieved (except for Signum, since someone did get to Regius).
They will also note how rarely were the full concentration really brought to bear on any single target throughout the history of RF6. Just in the Scarlietti Battle, the Forwards and Signum might as well have been directly subordinated to the 108th from the start, Nanoha and Vita might as well have been subordinated to the Air Units, and so on. Thus, concentration of force in a single unit is unwise, and elite mages are best employed dispersed.
In other words, RF6 is a failure (for reasons dissimilar to your similar conclusion). Dispersal of forces will remain TSAB's motto for the next century. Yah!
BTW, even if they had used your tactics and concentrated forces (you advocate not bothering with the Ground Numbers at all, IIRC), TSAB historians will call it a wrong decision anyway. They'd note that your failure to reinforce the ground line caused it to break, causing many casualties among the Ground Forces' front line.
Ironically, if RF6 really finished off everything else fast because of concentration of forces, you'd have come under greater criticism for "hogging" valuable assets to yourself and failing in TSAB's duty to "Protect all citizens." It'd almost have been better if RF6 had to struggle a bit, "justifying" your bringing everyone along.
Which is just another reason I insist on at least having a quick-go at cleaning out the Ground Numbers.
Presumably, whatever the TSAB is doing, it is at least marginally working most of the time. There may have been lots of un-necessary casualties, but all those cases will be marked as successes. In that light, perhaps they are studying history, but given the lens they were viewing history through, dispersal is the logical result of their historical experience (though perhaps not the correct one).
Training for direct action and raids would require much more extensive training beyond what I was already suggesting.I don't think that it can be compared. Sure strike tactics are more intensive but have a different character.
The TSAB has should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of itself and its member worlds. It has officers with current and relevant combat experience to work with if it needs to develop or modify its existing doctrine yet it is unable to draw upon any of its experiences to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.Just look at my previous post.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-20, 02:59
As previously mentioned, t is difficult, in fact, to identify a single area of real competence in the TSAB. They can't attack, they can't defend, they can't handle a meeting engagement either. What else is left for them...
Well they work as a police force for lost logica. Should we really use any military logic here?
arkhangelsk
2007-09-20, 04:46
Remember how competent they were at A's? Remember their original plan was basically to wipe out at least ~130 million Japanese! They could cover this one up because we are only the 97th, but imagine if that was Mid.
Mirificus
2007-09-20, 13:02
I don't think that it can be compared. Sure strike tactics are more intensive but have a different character.
They can't be separated like that any more than than attack or defense can be separated during military operations.
The units that specialize in direct action and raids tend to be elite light infantry units. The standard light infantry tactics act as a base. They need to excel at normal light infantry skill sets before they can even think about conducting direct action or raiding missions. Those skill sets are developed even further in addition to further specialized training.
Well they work as a police force for lost logica. Should we really use any military logic here?
The TSAB should be as the more they deviate from it, the greater the danger they place on all of the worlds for which they are responsible. Look at what's happened with the Mid-capital. The TSAB let Cradle and drones reach the airspace directly above the city and their slow response time allowed hours for the Cradle and drones to cause extensive civilian casualties and collateral damage.
Whether you like it or not, Midchilda and lot of other worlds expect the TSAB to be a credible military force.
A problem with history is that there is almost always counter-examples, and there are always ways to interpret even a single event in multiple ways. Arguably, history can be used to back almost any position.
For example, StrikerS' ending actually will be interpreted by TSAB Historians as an example favoring dispersal of forces. With the current result, historians will no longer care about how close and contrived-level lucky the whole thing was. Instead, they will note how the presence of the Forwards supported the sagging GF frontline. And all the objectives did get achieved (except for Signum, since someone did get to Regius).
They will also note how rarely were the full concentration really brought to bear on any single target throughout the history of RF6. Just in the Scarlietti Battle, the Forwards and Signum might as well have been directly subordinated to the 108th from the start, Nanoha and Vita might as well have been subordinated to the Air Units, and so on. Thus, concentration of force in a single unit is unwise, and elite mages are best employed dispersed.
This is why I've been emphasizing the ability to consistently draw the right lessons from experience. That ability to discern what the appropriate lessons to be learned are is vital and that is why the Reichsheer was used as my first counter-example to the TSAB.
All of the combat experience and study of military history in the world won't do an armed force any good if it persists on drawing the wrong lessons learned from those experiences.
In other words, RF6 is a failure (for reasons dissimilar to your similar conclusion). Dispersal of forces will remain TSAB's motto for the next century. Yah!
I think I understand but could you elaborate so I can be clear on what you're saying?
BTW, even if they had used your tactics and concentrated forces (you advocate not bothering with the Ground Numbers at all, IIRC), TSAB historians will call it a wrong decision anyway. They'd note that your failure to reinforce the ground line caused it to break, causing many casualties among the Ground Forces' front line.
You're right that I did bring that up. However, I suggested that as a possible means of economy of force. It may have caused more casualties to the Ground Forces line than they were already taking but could potentially have saved civilian lives by taking out the Cradle and Jail's lab faster.
I haven't proposed a detailed plan since there are so many unknowns like the geographical relationships between objectives and the flight speed of the Asura and the Aces.
Ironically, if RF6 really finished off everything else fast because of concentration of forces, you'd have come under greater criticism for "hogging" valuable assets to yourself and failing in TSAB's duty to "Protect all citizens." It'd almost have been better if RF6 had to struggle a bit, "justifying" your bringing everyone along.
Which is just another reason I insist on at least having a quick-go at cleaning out the Ground Numbers.
Presumably, whatever the TSAB is doing, it is at least marginally working most of the time. There may have been lots of un-necessary casualties, but all those cases will be marked as successes. In that light, perhaps they are studying history, but given the lens they were viewing history through, dispersal is the logical result of their historical experience (though perhaps not the correct one).
Interesting analysis overall. That could very well be the TSAB mindset. The problem remains though that the TSAB can't reliably produce combat leaders whatever tactical doctrine is has is neither well thought out nor comprehensive.
I also suggested eliminating the ground numbers through overmatch with the Aces on the way to the Cradle and Jail's lab as an option. Ironically enough, I was accused of tactical myopia because the numbers would all "hide" and RF6 would be "forced to play cat and mouse". It would be "impossible for RF6 to adapt to the situation" and simply accept the dispersal as buying a fair bit of time and immediately moving on to the next target.
I think that was the same thread where I was admonished with the remark, "Trying to secure everywhere is never a tactical error."
Whether you like it or not, Midchilda and lot of other worlds expect the TSAB to be a credible military force.Why would those other worlds expect that? As far as we know that are no other worlds to fight/guard against.
Mirificus
2007-09-20, 13:16
Why would those other worlds expect that? As far as we know that are no other worlds to fight/guard against.
Do you really think that Midchilda is the only administered world? Beyond that, the TSAB is also expected to counter inter-dimensional threats. That's the whole purpose of its navy.
That was probably the most minor point I brought up. What about the other points? Do you have any argument with them?
Do you really think that Midchilda is the only administered world? The TSAB is a multi-world organization, but we have heard nothing about any past wars or that there are any high-tech worlds that aren't a member of the TSAB.
This would explain the arrogance and the overly strong bureaucracy of the TSAB.
Beyond that, the TSAB is also expected to counter inter-dimensional threats. That's the whole purpose of its navy.The ships mostly serves as a mode of transport and if the mages don't win, then they blow the lost logica up. They seem to have the wrong weapons or lack of them for any real military action.
That was probably the most minor point I brought up. What about the other points? Do you have any argument with them? I think that we just won't agree about the training.
Mirificus
2007-09-20, 17:02
The ships mostly serves as a mode of transport and if the mages don't win, then they blow the lost logica up. They seem to have the wrong weapons or lack of them for any real military action.
That is no different than the TSAB as a whole. It is being expected to perform military functions regardless of how well equipped or organized it is to carry out those functions.
The TSAB is the first and only line of defense that Midchilda has. If it should fail, there is nothing to fall back on.
I think that we just won't agree about the training.
The exact nature of their training is a red herring. The fundamental problem is whatever they have been training for, that training hasn't enabled them to do anything well nor has it developed capable leaders.
I'll refer you back to this:
Actually, what a police force needs to handle is Security with some offensives. What we are shown demonstrates that TSAB's offensive planning (Ep21, of course, but also Ep24, where a failure of flank security apparently caused the wipeout of all of Zest's old unit) and security planning (Ep7, Ep17), as well as meeting engagement (Ep11-12) is lacking.
So, if you can't attack, you can't defend/security and you can't handle meeting engagements .. well, what's left.
That is no different than the TSAB as a whole. It is being expected to perform military functions regardless of how well equipped or organized it is to carry out those functions.
The TSAB is the first and only line of defense that Midchilda has. If it should fail, there is nothing to fall back on.So? There is nothing to suggest that they need a real military. I would be surprised if the TSAB ever fought against a military organization.
TSAB is an overglorified, under trained, bureaucratic police force. A product of an interplanetary utopia that has no use or desire for a real military. Good at stopping that lone crazy researcher or that lost logica smuggler, but completely outmaneuvered by any large group using basic tactics.
Avatar_notADV
2007-09-20, 20:12
If you're looking for a historical parallel, look at tank development.
Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate are tanks. They're effectively invulnerable to the run-of-the-mill enemy forces. They can swat the hell out of large numbers of inferior enemies. They are highly mobile and can be adapted to shock tactics. Even relatively powerful enemy units aren't capable of stopping them. The presence of a small number of them can turn an otherwise-deadlocked battle decisively. They're only available in limited numbers and you don't know how to mass-produce them (yet!)
The TSAB can take one lesson from this encounter and become Germany (though hopefully without the pogroms and other associated unpleasantness, huh) or it can take the other lesson and become France.
There are positive things that the TSAB can and should take away from the encounter. The first, obviously, should be an increased emphasis on recruiting efforts. An elite mage is worth much, much more than one of normal strength; securing the services and loyalty of people with the potential to become those mages should be the absolute number one priority of TSAB recruiting (not only does it improve their strength, but it also denies them to a potential enemy... not that we've seen any of those in Nanoha.) We know they're not common, but they're not fantastically rare either - Nanoha and Hayate were practically neighbors, after all. It wouldn't kill the TSAB to put in a few recruiting stations and run around shouting "Hey, can anybody hear me?!" at the top of their psychic lungs, and it just might pay off big-time down the road. (Hell, their capital just got saved because Yuuno bothered to shout for help ten years ago!)
Second, their whole training system needs reworking. Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?
(Then again, are they well-equipped? Maybe the TSAB is a lot more corrupt than we know?)
Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. Not just a few, but literally hundreds and thousands, enough where he can throw away dozens of them again and again. Forget the lil' Jewel Seeds inside them, where's he getting the metal? He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
Mirificus
2007-09-20, 20:45
So? There is nothing to suggest that they need a real military.
That is strange. I can't really think of any police forces that are expected or have the ability to contest air superiority, protect sea lanes or perform amphibious assaults on bases in the middle of the ocean.
TSAB is an overglorified, under trained, bureaucratic police force. A product of an interplanetary utopia that has no use or desire for a real military. Good at stopping that lone crazy researcher or that lost logica smuggler, but completely outmaneuvered by any large group using basic tactics.
The US is separated from its enemies by oceans and hasn't been attacked by a "real military" on its own territory since 1941. Does the US need an army?
Have you thought of the legal, moral and strategic implications of relying only on police forces for foreign policy?
By definition, police forces can't legally operate outside of their jurisdiction and force projection is out of the question. Even if they had the jurisdiction, how many police forces have the time, resources and training to take on the additional burden?
Let's go through some of some missions police forces can't conduct in foreign nations or on the seas without prior permission from the host nation. In TSAB terms, this would be any planets that aren't administered directly and interdimensional space.
-amphibious assault (forget about Precia)
-amphibious raids (no raiding)
-cladestine reconnaissance and surveillance/counterintelligence
-civil support/training operations
-hostage rescue (they're likely to want to use local forces even if yours are much better at hostage rescue)
-humanitarian relief operations
-limited objective attack/deception raid (no raiding)
-maritime reinforcement/interception/assault
-non-combatant evacuation operations
-security operations
-SIGINT/EW
You would be asking for the TSAB to abandon any of its citizens if they run into trouble outside of TSAB administered areas. Even investigation in non-administered worlds would become impossible without explicit host permission.
If a civil war happens and citizens caught up in it need to be evacuated. Too bad them.
If citizens get taken hostage or kidnapped in or to a non-administered planet. Too bad for them.
Genocide in non-administered regions? Too bad.
Even France and Canada find those reason enough to maintain a military. It would be in Midchilda's best interests to have a credible military force unless its citizens are completely amoral.
I don't care if you agree with this or not but do try to think about it.
Now, back to this:
The exact nature of RF6's training is a red herring. The fundamental problem is whatever they have been training for, that training hasn't enabled them to do perform any missions effectively nor has it developed capable leaders.
Actually, what a police force needs to handle is Security with some offensives. What we are shown demonstrates that TSAB's offensive planning (Ep21, of course, but also Ep24, where a failure of flank security apparently caused the wipeout of all of Zest's old unit) and security planning (Ep7, Ep17), as well as meeting engagement (Ep11-12) is lacking.
So, if you can't attack, you can't defend/security and you can't handle meeting engagements .. well, what's left.
Mirificus
2007-09-20, 21:35
If you're looking for a historical parallel, look at tank development.
Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate are tanks. They're effectively invulnerable to the run-of-the-mill enemy forces. They can swat the hell out of large numbers of inferior enemies. They are highly mobile and can be adapted to shock tactics. Even relatively powerful enemy units aren't capable of stopping them. The presence of a small number of them can turn an otherwise-deadlocked battle decisively. They're only available in limited numbers and you don't know how to mass-produce them (yet!)
I think the tank comparison is apt. It is pretty much how I've been thinking of the three Aces, Signum and Vita. The combination of firepower, mobility and protection is very tank-like.
The TSAB can take one lesson from this encounter and become Germany (though hopefully without the pogroms and other associated unpleasantness, huh) or it can take the other lesson and become France.
As with France and Germany, the TSAB's fundamental problems aren't inferior equipment or being outnumbered. Rather, as I've been trying to point out, the failures are with its leadership, training and doctrine. One of the notable things about the Wehrmacht was ability to reliably train its junior officers and NCOs into effective combat leaders. The TSAB is pretty much the exact opposite in that regard and is on track to continue doing so.
There are positive things that the TSAB can and should take away from the encounter. The first, obviously, should be an increased emphasis on recruiting efforts. An elite mage is worth much, much more than one of normal strength; securing the services and loyalty of people with the potential to become those mages should be the absolute number one priority of TSAB recruiting (not only does it improve their strength, but it also denies them to a potential enemy... not that we've seen any of those in Nanoha.) We know they're not common, but they're not fantastically rare either - Nanoha and Hayate were practically neighbors, after all. It wouldn't kill the TSAB to put in a few recruiting stations and run around shouting "Hey, can anybody hear me?!" at the top of their psychic lungs, and it just might pay off big-time down the road. (Hell, their capital just got saved because Yuuno bothered to shout for help ten years ago!)
I can't really think of any data with regards to TSAB recruiting practices. I don't think we've seen any recruited outside of direct involvement.
Second, their whole training system needs reworking. Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?
I keep on getting the feeling that Teana turned out well in spite of Nanoha's training rather than because of it. Look at how the other three turned out. They've been shown to be rather unreliable in combat.
(Then again, are they well-equipped? Maybe the TSAB is a lot more corrupt than we know?)
I wouldn't assume that in the absence of evidence. "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. Not just a few, but literally hundreds and thousands, enough where he can throw away dozens of them again and again. Forget the lil' Jewel Seeds inside them, where's he getting the metal? He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
That is an interesting point. Missing that would be a huge intelligence failure for the TSAB.
That is an interesting point. Missing that would be a huge intelligence failure for the TSAB.
I'll be working on a fic dealing with past TSAB intel shortcomings and their ramifications, to be posted on the fanfic section. :D
arkhangelsk
2007-09-20, 23:07
That is strange. I can't really think of any police forces that are expected or have the ability to contest air superiority, protect sea lanes or perform amphibious assaults on bases in the middle of the ocean.
The problem here is that you are too stuck on stereotypically Terran definitions and boundaries for "police", "paramilitary" and "military". More on that below.
The US is separated from its enemies by oceans and hasn't been attacked by a "real military" on its own territory since 1941. Does the US need an army?
Actually, before 1914 or so, they didn't think they needed an army, so IIRC the US had like 100,000 men in its army which had to be uber-expanded into the WWI army. The current "standing army" is a post-WWII / Cold War thing.
[quote]By definition, police forces can't legally operate outside of their jurisdiction and force projection is out of the question. Even if they had the jurisdiction, how many police forces have the time, resources and training to take on the additional burden?
Let's go through some of some missions police forces can't conduct in foreign nations or on the seas without prior permission from the host nation. In TSAB terms, this would be any planets that aren't administered directly and interdimensional space.
-amphibious assault (forget about Precia)
-amphibious raids (no raiding)
-cladestine reconnaissance and surveillance/counterintelligence
-civil support/training operations
-hostage rescue (they're likely to want to use local forces even if yours are much better at hostage rescue)
-humanitarian relief operations
-limited objective attack/deception raid (no raiding)
-maritime reinforcement/interception/assault
-non-combatant evacuation operations
-security operations
-SIGINT/EW
You would be asking for the TSAB to abandon any of its citizens if they run into trouble outside of TSAB administered areas. Even investigation in non-administered worlds would become impossible without explicit host permission.
If a civil war happens and citizens caught up in it need to be evacuated. Too bad them.
If citizens get taken hostage or kidnapped in or to a non-administered planet. Too bad for them.
Genocide in non-administered regions? Too bad.
Even France and Canada find those reason enough to maintain a military. It would be in Midchilda's best interests to have a credible military force unless its citizens are completely amoral.
I don't care if you agree with this or not but do try to think about it.
1) It is not clear whether there are significant worlds known to the TSAB that are outside its jurisdiction. There is no evidence of an enemy bloc or any such thing.
2) Technically, if you have a military and you do most of the stuff you just put in your list in another world without their approval, it is called an Act of War.
3) You shouldn't be too hung up on Terran words like "Police". It is an approximate analogue - their definition are somewhat different from ours (for example, whatever you use to describe the TSAB must allow for the canon fact that they do clandestinely operate in unadministered worlds like Earth). If they were really police in our sense, they won't even be doing firefighting, nor would they be doing nature conservation and research in out of the way uninahbited worlds.
4) If they are military, on the other hand, then they aren't supposed to operate inside TSAB "territory". Typically, matters inside such as catching criminals is the responsiblility of the police, or paramilitary forces from a "Interior Ministry" equivalent, not the full blown army.
5) The best way to describe the TSAB is paramilitary. They are the police, firefighters, military, and the nature conservation / exploration corps, yet they are none of these at the same time.
Mirificus
2007-09-20, 23:48
1) It is not clear whether there are significant worlds known to the TSAB that are outside its jurisdiction. There is no evidence of an enemy bloc or any such thing.
Granted
2) Technically, if you have a military and you do most of the stuff you just put in your list in another world without their approval, it is called an Act of War.
Without prior agreements, unless there is no recognized government, you would be violating that nation's sovereignty regardless of how you label the unit carrying it out.
However if you care about your citizens then you do what you need to do. There are a lot of examples of hostage rescue of citizens from neutral or hostile countries like Operation Thunderbolt in Entebbe and Lufthansa 181 in Mogadishu. They were carried out by elite light infantry units of the kind whose training BBM disagrees with. I have no idea how he plans to skip light infantry training to training for raids when those raids need operators who excel at light infantry skill sets. Specializing in raids is the exact opposite of a panacea when a unit already has inadequate training.
3) You shouldn't be too hung up on Terran words like "Police". It is an approximate analogue - their definition are somewhat different from ours (for example, whatever you use to describe the TSAB must allow for the canon fact that they do clandestinely operate in unadministered worlds like Earth). If they were really police in our sense, they won't even be doing firefighting, nor would they be doing nature conservation and research in out of the way uninahbited worlds.
I was playing devil's advocate in that last post. Personally, I think the differences in this context are more semantic than not. The important thing is that, regardless of labeling, when RF6 or the TSAB are compelled to carry out missions like episode 21 or the assault on Precia's base, they ignore military logic at their peril and by doing thus, place the entire mission at risk. Claiming that the TSAB is strictly either a police or military force is both disingenuous and a false dichotomy.
4) If they are military, on the other hand, then they aren't supposed to operate inside TSAB "territory". Typically, matters inside such as catching criminals is the responsiblility of the police, or paramilitary forces from a "Interior Ministry" equivalent, not the full blown army.
There's no reason to assume "posse comitatus" exists for Midchilda.
5) The best way to describe the TSAB is paramilitary. They are the police, firefighters, military, and the nature conservation / exploration corps, yet they are none of these at the same time.
They're a jack of all trades and master of none. They're expected to perform both police and military functions, even ones that would normally be in opposition to each other, and they have the training for neither.
Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
I think I know part of the answer to that, aside from the cover provided by Reguis and the High Council. The TSAB seems to have a blind spot regarding non-magical weapons. If those drones used magical weapons, you can be sure it would have sent alarm bells ringing throughout the Bureau. Instead, all the components for their beam attacks were probably listed as "cutting tools" while their hover and flight systems were "transport equipment". Use the old trick of breaking down large orders into many small orders, and anyone looking for magical weapons would never see anything out of the ordinary.
That is strange. I can't really think of any police forces that are expected or have the ability to contest air superiority, protect sea lanes or perform amphibious assaults on bases in the middle of the ocean.I think that you are looking at this in the wrong way.
For TSAB the universe is a country, and each world a city. And the Ships are swat cars. The only people not a part of TSAB are primitives that live in the forrest unaware of any other people.
Second, their whole training system needs reworking.
True
Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?Well those mages aren't AMF trained and use standard equipment. Teana wouldn't have made it if it wasn't for her custom weapons and AMF training.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-21, 02:50
I think that you are looking at this in the wrong way.
For TSAB the universe is a country, and each world a city. And the Ships are swat cars. The only people not a part of TSAB are primitives that live in the forrest unaware of any other people.
How does that absolve them of having basic competence it at least something. So far, we've established they basically don't have Attack, Defense, Meeting Engagement, SIGINT or HUMINT. What do they have...
True
Well those mages aren't AMF trained and use standard equipment. Teana wouldn't have made it if it wasn't for her custom weapons and AMF training.
In other words, they have poor training and equipment.
I can answer both with this:
Their training and weapons are enough for their normal tasks (policing lost logica). they never had the need for improvement.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-21, 10:24
In other words, they had been lucky all these years, or maybe they had horribly low standards for success - even counting that the 97th is unadministered and nearly unknown to the Midchildran voting population, resorting to blasting over 100 million sentients tells you how low the standard of "success" is in their dictionary.
I bet StrikerS would have been called a success as well, despite the proportion of city dismantled and how close to utter disaster it all is.
And whatever happened to Eternal Readiness or striving for self-improvement in peacetime!
Mirificus
2007-09-22, 10:30
Let's get back to more interesting discussion:
If you're looking for a historical parallel, look at tank development.
Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate are tanks. They're effectively invulnerable to the run-of-the-mill enemy forces. They can swat the hell out of large numbers of inferior enemies. They are highly mobile and can be adapted to shock tactics. Even relatively powerful enemy units aren't capable of stopping them. The presence of a small number of them can turn an otherwise-deadlocked battle decisively. They're only available in limited numbers and you don't know how to mass-produce them (yet!)
The TSAB can take one lesson from this encounter and become Germany (though hopefully without the pogroms and other associated unpleasantness, huh) or it can take the other lesson and become France.
There are positive things that the TSAB can and should take away from the encounter. The first, obviously, should be an increased emphasis on recruiting efforts. An elite mage is worth much, much more than one of normal strength; securing the services and loyalty of people with the potential to become those mages should be the absolute number one priority of TSAB recruiting (not only does it improve their strength, but it also denies them to a potential enemy... not that we've seen any of those in Nanoha.) We know they're not common, but they're not fantastically rare either - Nanoha and Hayate were practically neighbors, after all. It wouldn't kill the TSAB to put in a few recruiting stations and run around shouting "Hey, can anybody hear me?!" at the top of their psychic lungs, and it just might pay off big-time down the road. (Hell, their capital just got saved because Yuuno bothered to shout for help ten years ago!)
Second, their whole training system needs reworking. Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?
(Then again, are they well-equipped? Maybe the TSAB is a lot more corrupt than we know?)
Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. Not just a few, but literally hundreds and thousands, enough where he can throw away dozens of them again and again. Forget the lil' Jewel Seeds inside them, where's he getting the metal? He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
I think the tank comparison is apt. It is pretty much how I've been thinking of the three Aces, Signum and Vita. The combination of firepower, mobility and protection is very tank-like. However, they have superior mobility, as in addition to their much greater maximum speeds, their speeds isn't affected by terrain and they have the option of vertical envelopment.
As with France compared with Germany in 1940, the TSAB's fundamental problems aren't inferior equipment or being outnumbered. Rather, as I've been trying to point out, the failures are with its leadership, training and doctrine. One of the notable things about the Wehrmacht was ability to reliably train its junior officers and NCOs into effective combat leaders. The TSAB is pretty much the exact opposite in that regard and is on track to continue doing so.
I keep on getting the feeling that Teana turned out well in spite of Nanoha's training rather than because of it. Look at how the other three turned out. They've been shown to be rather unreliable in combat.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-22, 22:07
The TSAB can take one lesson from this encounter and become Germany (though hopefully without the pogroms and other associated unpleasantness, huh) or it can take the other lesson and become France.
It is already France. Quite frankly, given their 150-year history, they'd view this incident, like all others, through a lens. As I've mentioned before to Mirificius, the most likely outcome is that they actually decide the current battle verifies their doctrine, and would make no changes to it. We'd be lucky if they incorporate AMF training into subsequent training criteria.
There are positive things that the TSAB can and should take away from the encounter. The first, obviously, should be an increased emphasis on recruiting efforts.
Not having seen the recruiting efforts, we can't really comment on it.
An elite mage is worth much, much more than one of normal strength; securing the services and loyalty of people with the potential to become those mages should be the absolute number one priority of TSAB recruiting (not only does it improve their strength, but it also denies them to a potential enemy... not that we've seen any of those in Nanoha.)
All we can say is that from the limited information at hand, they know that. In fact, if not for Lindy's intervention, Nanoha (and by extension Hayate) will have been literally abducted from Earth because TSAB regs say that mages of their strength cannot stay on an Unadministered World (ref: the Nanoha novel). Ostensibly, 1 in 20 mages is an AAA (presumably they meant Headquarters or Navy, because there's no sign of this in the Ground Forces), and that's a high concentration relative to the general population, so they are presumably doing their best in effort. As for technique, well, hadn't seen it, can't comment.
We know they're not common, but they're not fantastically rare either - Nanoha and Hayate were practically neighbors, after all.
Actually, two people not a statistical sample make. They could be the 2 over-S talents in all Earth, or there could be one in every town. Remember the last time the TSAB got a S-ranked mage (Graham), it was decades ago. Canonically, the three are rare mutations.
It wouldn't kill the TSAB to put in a few recruiting stations and run around shouting "Hey, can anybody hear me?!" at the top of their psychic lungs, and it just might pay off big-time down the road. (Hell, their capital just got saved because Yuuno bothered to shout for help ten years ago!)
Oh, cool. First of all, it hardly takes a AAA or better to hear that, so you'd bother lots of people. Yunno (and perhaps Earth) was lucky it was Nanoha who heard him - another person would be like, "You butthole. How dare you interrupt my game of Command and Conquer with your stupid telepathy! (Maybe if I ignore him, he'd quit...)" Or maybe the shock of a telepathic communication will cause him to run to the psychiatric hospital.
To be fair, Regius and the High Council had the right idea - they are probably never going to recruit enough elite mages, so making them or close equivalents is the only way. Imagine companies of sentoukijin with a human leader (though the way the TSAB is going, the sentoukijin are likely better at tactics than most of TSAB's officers). Their mistake was keeping Scarlietti around for too long.
As for ammorality, what ammorality? Is it more ammoral than sending Cs and Ds to die in droves on the battlefield to superior enemies?
Second, their whole training system needs reworking. Tea only ranks a B - theoretically EVERY mage in the aerial corps has more power than she does. Yet she took on three Numbers and a pack of drones and came out the victor! Criminy, if a few months of training with Nanoha can make a little girl able to do that, what could they do instituting similar training with people who had high talent in the first place? Or rather, what the hell are they doing wrong, when a rookie with moderate talent and a stiff training regimen can down a threat that dozens of highly-talented and well-equipped mages can't?
Actually, Tea had much better equipment than the regular aerial mage units. But the real thing that bought her the victory was her talent - tactical thinking.
These guys are Bs, yes, but that's a reflection of their low magical potential. In fighting talent, they may be top class. They are literally the cream of the Bs, and in certain circumstances, that may be their edge against a mediocre A or even AA that relies on his power. (Disclaimer: All identifications of "cream" and "mediocre" are by TSAB standards)
Could their training be improved, though? Definitely. It was frankly pathetic to see those aerial mages jerking as they shoot in midair.
Finally, one thing occurred to me. HOW THE HELL did they not know where Jail was? Okay, okay, subterranean base, only a few Numbers, I can believe that. But he's got a friggin' army of drones there. Not just a few, but literally hundreds and thousands, enough where he can throw away dozens of them again and again. Forget the lil' Jewel Seeds inside them, where's he getting the metal? He'd need a huge logistical train to have managed to manufacture that many of the suckers. Wouldn't THAT have been easy to track?
The problem is how that would compare with the total output of the administered worlds, would it? Considering how many worlds there are, a division of drones may still only represent a miniscule fraction of output.
He should still have been discovered the moment he started to use his "radio", though. He was transmitting in a mountain!
Mirificus
2007-09-23, 17:00
It is already France. Quite frankly, given their 150-year history, they'd view this incident, like all others, through a lens. As I've mentioned before to Mirificius, the most likely outcome is that they actually decide the current battle verifies their doctrine, and would make no changes to it. We'd be lucky if they incorporate AMF training into subsequent training criteria.
The TSAB's inability to consistently draw the right lessons from its experience and its ineptitude at training its junior officers and NCOs into effective leaders is completely unlike the Reichswehr/early-war Werhmacht. Even if it had no other combat experience whatsoever, the collective experience of the first two seasons alone could have gone a long way to developing effective TTPs and basic tactical doctrine, particularly since all of the combatants did in fact joined the TSAB. After A's, all of the combatants and staff that were involved were easily accessible to be interviewed and write reports about their observations and experiences upon which to form a basis for rigorous analysis.
After the Cradle battle, should have a basis to start working on tactical operational doctrine at the operational level.
The TSAB can't develop appropriate doctrine and training from its experiences if it keeps drawing its conclusions first and then selectively looking over the evidence to justify them. Its theories are useless without sufficient testing and revision to match its observations.
First the TSAB needs to take the study of tactics seriously. It needs to have a central body responsible for both doctrine and training and it needs to have authority to match. If one already exists, it needs to be trashed because it is worse than useless.
The Reichswehr equivalent had its own section within the new Truppenamnt (General Staff in everything but name, established in 1919) which included a T-2, the Organization Section responsible for drafting organization and equipment tables and T-4, the Training Section, responsible for supervising training throughout the army.
Although branch inspectorates did most of the routine work and training and compiling manuals, all training programs, manuals, and materials had to be approved by the T-4. The Training Section would ensure that the military training and doctrine developed by the branch inspectorates would conform to the unified operational doctrine and organization established by the T-1 and T-2. The Training Section of the Truppenamnt also had direct responsibility for training General Staff officers, as well as for creating and supervising the armywise testing program for officers and NCOs
This is what the Reichswehr started doing immediately after the war:
"It is absolutely necessary to put the experience of the war in a broad light and collect this experience while the impressions won on the battlefield are still fresh and a major proportion of the experienced officers are still in leading positions."
...
The officers named to committees were to write, "short, concise studies on the newly-gained experiences of the war and consider the following points:
a). What new situations arose in the war that had not been considered before the war?
b). How effective were our pre-war views in dealing with the above situations?
c). What new guidelines have been developed from the use of new weaponry in the war?
d). Which new problems put forward by the war have not yet found a solution?"
Von Seeckt's directive follows with a list of the fifty-seven-different aspects of the war to be examined, ranging from military justice and questions of troop morale to flame throwers, river crossings, and the military weather service. Military leadership, from leadership of an army group to large artillery formations, took up the largest single part of the plan (seven committees). Each inspectorate was also expected to assemble and analyze the recent tactical experiences of its branch.
Mountain and armored warfare each got their own committees, headed by officers (a general and a captain) with current and relevant experience. Just over a hundred officers were appointed to the committees and another three hundred joined as practically all of the inspectorates and department of the Defense Ministry was expected to work on the studies.
After those studies were completed, there was still much work to be done,
The Training Section was given responsibility for collecting and reviewing the work of the committees. T-4 was ordered to recommend comiitee changes regarding the opening of new subjects of study and the appointment of additional committee officers. T-4 was also to edit the reports for possible use in army manuals and regulations. During 1920 the Training Section would initiate a further twenty-nine studies of subjects not covered by von Seeckt's directive of December 1, 1919. The Training Section appointed mostly its own officers to carry out these [new] studies but solicited contributions from retired officers and some officers outside the T-4 as well. Some studies were specific and tactical and thus more suitable for direct application as sections of the new tactical manuals, such as "How Should Tactical Units Be Organized for Mountain Warfare?" "Should Supply Trains Be Placed under Divisional Control or under Higher Headquarters?" Others were on the more general subjects, such as "The Economy and the Two-Front War."
At the same time, the Air Service officers within the Truppenamt organized a similar program for assessing the aerial warfare experience citing von Seeckt's directive as their guideline for asking and developing solutions. Special committees were formed, and over one hundred airmen, including the senior Air Service commanders and a higher proportion of the former squadron commanders, would contribute studies.
Counting the original committees, the additional officers who conducted studies for the Training Section, and the efforts of the Air Service, by mid-1920 over five hundred of the most experienced German officers were involved in a program to mold their war experiences into a system of modern tactics and military organization.
The Germans took the postwar study of tactics very seriously. The Truppenamt assigned many of its best officers to its tactical doctrine studies. Why the TSAB doesn't take advantage its own experienced captains is a mystery. The TSAB has a very long road to go if it wants to adopt the German approach.
Imagine companies of sentoukijin with a human leader (though the way the TSAB is going, the sentoukijin are likely better at tactics than most of TSAB's officers). Their mistake was keeping Scarlietti around for too long.
The numbers are probably better at tactics because they haven't studied with the TSAB and thus haven't been learning the wrong pre-conceived notions year after year.
Actually, Tea had much better equipment than the regular aerial mage units. But the real thing that bought her the victory was her talent - tactical thinking.
Her talent seemed to be all her own. I'm sure Teana learned a lot WRT to magic-use but Nanoha didn't really seem to help much otherwise with her professional development.
Did Teana turn out well because of or in spite of Nanoha? Four is a small sample size to work with to judge Nanoha's effectiveness as an instructor but the failures do begin to add up. From what we've seen of the Forwards in combat, the TSAB's training standards must be particularly low or Nanoha may not be such a great instructor.
The problem is how that would compare with the total output of the administered worlds, would it? Considering how many worlds there are, a division of drones may still only represent a miniscule fraction of output.
The problem there is the TSAB is weak enough for that kind of output to be a significant threat nor does it have the intelligence resources to recognize such threats as they're beginning to develop.
He should still have been discovered the moment he started to use his "radio", though. He was transmitting in a mountain!
SIGINT :heh:
It seems like we can draw a couple more conclusions from episode 26. The TSAB makes uses its manpower oddly. Just look at Alto and Vice. From what we've seen, Alto is the better pilot yet she was used as an easily replaced communications officer. Vice is the best sniper in the unit but instead of giving him psychological counseling, they used him as an average pilot.
We also have more evidence WRT the TSAB Navy now.
The ships mostly serves as a mode of transport and if the mages don't win, then they blow the lost logica up. They seem to have the wrong weapons or lack of them for any real military action.
The primary role of the TSAB Navy during the Cradle battle was to destroy the Cradle. There was never any question of it transporting additional mages to engage the Cradle. They never even planned to send Chrono in as a mage. The fleet was to destroy the Cradle regardless of whether the mages had "won" or not and that is exactly what it did in episode 26. The maximum effective range of the weapons the ships used to engage the Cradle is unclear but at least six ships were equipped with them and their firepower was more than adequate to destroy the Cradle in a single volley despite all of the AMF.
The primary role of the TSAB Navy during the Cradle battle was to destroy the Cradle. There was never any question of it transporting additional mages to engage the Cradle. They never even planned to send Chrono in as a mage. The fleet was to destroy the Cradle regardless of whether the mages had "won" or not and that is exactly what it did in episode 26. The maximum effective range of the weapons the ships used to engage the Cradle is unclear but at least six ships were equipped with them and their firepower was more than adequate to destroy the Cradle in a single volley despite all of the AMF.
Read the quote, I am talking about the design itself and how the TSAB uses it. The cannon is a last ditch option. And will be used on things that are just too dangerous to remain in this universe.
Mirificus
2007-09-23, 19:43
Read the quote, I am talking about the design itself and how the TSAB uses it. The cannon is a last ditch option. And will be used on things that are just too dangerous to remain in this universe.
I read your post. It is a conclusion. Would you care to provide the evidence?
More importantly it does nothing to answer this,
In other words, they had been lucky all these years, or maybe they had horribly low standards for success - even counting that the 97th is unadministered and nearly unknown to the Midchildran voting population, resorting to blasting over 100 million sentients tells you how low the standard of "success" is in their dictionary.
I bet StrikerS would have been called a success as well, despite the proportion of city dismantled and how close to utter disaster it all is.
And whatever happened to Eternal Readiness or striving for self-improvement in peacetime!
One thing the Germans had to their advantage was the 200 years of proven battle knowledge to ground their combat thinking and analysis, while the TSAB has who knows what behind it. The Prussian Staff system first arouse due to the near annihilation of the Prussian forces during Jena and its aftermath, which necessitated the total reconstitution of the Prussian Army. They were very fortunate to have military reformers such as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau to oversee changes, but the closest person to that I can think of in the TSAB is Chrono.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-24, 00:50
I read your post. It is a conclusion. Would you care to provide the evidence?
There's Seasons 1 and 2. You might notice that Asura had to be specially outfitted with the Arcenciel in response to a clear threat. Even with Chrono's fleet, according to you, there were only 6 ships seen firing (I'd check Ep26 tonight for myself when I get home). IIRC, there were more than 6 ships in Chrono's fleet, so this means that not every ship was armed.
I read your post. It is a conclusion. Would you care to provide the evidence?What Arkhangelsk said.
More importantly it does nothing to answer this,About eternal readiness or striving for self-improvement? Well those are concepts that not every culture has or uses in the same way we do.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-24, 02:48
About eternal readiness or striving for self-improvement? Well those are concepts that not every culture has or uses in the same way we do.
It is generally not considered to be a good thing when a culture / organization lacks these qualities. Why don't you just nod and admit "The TSAB sucks"?
Estavali
2007-09-24, 06:40
About eternal readiness or striving for self-improvement? Well those are concepts that not every culture has or uses in the same way we do.
Just popping in to comment on this statement. Too many empires in Chinese history (and no doubt those of other nations) has shown that when the military stops improving and evolving, the country/establishment suffers. And when the authorities don't pay attention to internal and external threats, they are simply asking for trouble and will always get it. The Qing was just one obvious example.
When anything stops improving, it stagnates and rots to oblivion.
When any nation doesn't keep its eyes open and weapons ready, it opens itself to invasion and destruction.
I frankly do not understand how does improvement and ever-readiness differ from culture to culture. The underlying concept for self-improvement should be very simple: learn, not only from mistakes (both yours and those of others) but also from successes as well, understand what had led to those mistakes/victories, improve if possible, and apply. Rinse and repeat. And ever-readiness is even simpler: keep your eyes open and don't sleep.
If there are any differences, it might be in the manner that different people use to apply these simple but crucial ideas.
Me 2 cents.
*cloaks*
Lets take Europe and China of the past centuries as example.
China: Slow to improve, a lack of threats and very conservative.
Europe: Constant conflict with a high cultural focus on improvement.
Now TSAB has more in common with old China, they do keep a ready force, but there hasn't been any real incentive to improve. Also they have a bias against the use and study of lost logica, which further limits improvement.
If people want to say "The TSAB sucks" Go right ahead, but think about why they turned out that way.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-24, 07:56
One would think that looking at the sad fate of China will help those TSAB dolts learn their lesson without having to experience it themselves. I'm sure other historical examples are somewhere in their lexicon.
There have always been examples in history whenever the enviroment allows it.
But the drive for improvement is more then an idea. It is also nearly a state of mind, for you must: not think too highly of yourself (no arrogance), be willing to invest and allow people to express their ideas.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-24, 08:52
One would think that the constant reminders of a greater power that created the Lost Logia will have been a nice motivating factor.
They believe that to be forever lost.
Mirificus
2007-09-24, 09:16
One thing the Germans had to their advantage was the 200 years of proven battle knowledge to ground their combat thinking and analysis, while the TSAB has who knows what behind it. The Prussian Staff system first arouse due to the near annihilation of the Prussian forces during Jena and its aftermath, which necessitated the total reconstitution of the Prussian Army. They were very fortunate to have military reformers such as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau to oversee changes, but the closest person to that I can think of in the TSAB is Chrono.
I'm well aware of how the original Prussian General Staff emerged. A General Staff is of no use to the TSAB without a central body of doctrine. My post was about steps the TSAB could take towards drawing the appropriate lessons learned from its combat experience and developing a more effective junior officer/NCO corps. If you want different examples, think of the US Army in the 1980s or the Soviet Army 1941-45.
The TSAB has wasted 150 years so far. The sooner it starts taking the study of tactics seriously, the better, and the Cradle battle is as good a place as any to start.
"It is absolutely necessary to put the experience of the war in a broad light and collect this experience while the impressions won on the battlefield are still fresh and a major proportion of the experienced officers are still in leading positions."
...
a). What new situations arose in the war that had not been considered before the war?
b). How effective were our pre-war views in dealing with the above situations?
c). What new guidelines have been developed from the use of new weaponry in the war?
d). Which new problems put forward by the war have not yet found a solution?"
What do we know about existing TSAB training and standards?
Four is a small sample size to work with to judge Nanoha's effectiveness as an instructor but the failures do begin to add up. From what we've seen of the Forwards in combat, the TSAB's training standards must be particularly low or Nanoha may not be such a great instructor. Did Teana turn out well because of or in spite of Nanoha?
There is also Hayate who went through command training and seems to have emerged worse at actual command. BBM has already conceded that TSAB training sucks.
What about TSAB leadership?
Episodes 17 and 21 speak for themselves.
Just what is the TSAB actually competent at?
Even if the TSAB's only task was to locate Lost Logia, its poor capabilities at investigation, intelligence gathering and SIGINT mean that the TSAB will have problems finding those Lost Logia in a timely manner if it finds them at all.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-24, 10:00
My post was about steps the TSAB could take towards drawing the appropriate lessons learned from its combat experience and developing a more effective junior officer/NCO corps. If you want different examples, think of the US Army in the 1980s or the Soviet Army 1941-45.
They can do von Seckt all they want, but frankly, I don't think an analysis, given their lens, will do much more than further exhort the recruitment of mages and AMF training.
Further, the event will inevitably be averaged against the rest of their experience.
Four is a small sample size to work with to judge Nanoha's effectiveness as an instructor but the failures do begin to add up. From what we've seen of the Forwards in combat, the TSAB's training standards must be particularly low or Nanoha may not be such a great instructor. Did Teana turn out well because of or in spite of Nanoha?
To be fair to Nanoha, maybe you are judging her using the wrong ruler. Nanoha's job is a 戦技教導官. Wiki translates it as "Tactical Instructor", but that's really inaccurate - Combat/Martial Arts Instructor is the more accurate translation. A "tactical instructor" would be 戦術教導官, a level higher up in the way that the operational is higher than the tactical, and definitely a different field.
A Combat Instructor is kind of like a Specialist trainer. Her job is to quickly identify strengths and weaknesses of people and try to improve their strengths. She has to teach the shooters how to be snipers, the brawlers how to be martial arts experts, and so on. In that sense Nanoha did well. Tactics or moral-psychological conditioning is probably outside her purview.
She might teach Teana how to shoot faster and more accurately, with greater power, but teaching her how to use cover is a different purview.
But then, considering that her officer training was all of three months long, it is doubtful she is qualified to teach a lot of tactics anyway.
Estavali
2007-09-24, 10:02
There have always been examples in history whenever the enviroment allows it.
But the drive for improvement is more then an idea. It is also nearly a state of mind, for you must: not think too highly of yourself (no arrogance), be willing to invest and allow people to express their ideas.
A state of mind it may be, but certainly one that can be cultivated and maintained, especially if it's motivated by the universal understanding that that death is basically a lack of positive growth. And stagnation leads to decline (it's like the law of gravity. If you don't keep going up, the only way to go is down. And stagnant water turns putrid very fast).
It is not as if the TSAB are the only one with supposed superior technological advances. The Jail Incident shows that rogue elements have the capacity to challenge their claim to power, with the proper support and funding. If Yuuno alone can help Nanoha train herself into a AAA magus capable of fighting an equally strong magus with far more combat experience, I seriously doubt if other cannot do the same.
It seems to be that the High Council may have suffered the illusion that the Midchildans have achieved all that can be achieved and all that remains is to make sure that this state doesn't change. This is a common mistake, and a common bane of all empires that has reached the zenith of their accomplishments, whether real or perceived.
There is no excuse for anything to allow their environments and circumstances dictate their need to improve. The TSAB was probably established to keep the peace, and also to keep people from misusing the LL. Since LLs can pretty much be found almost anywhere, with no restrictions as to who can use them, this reason alone should be motivating enough for TSAB to make sure that their forces are up to the task.
They believe that to be forever lost.
This is laughable, and even more so if the TSAB believes itself. Within the matter of months, two kinds of LLs, the Jewel Seeds and the even more dangerous Yaten no Madousho surfaced in this little country called Japan, and what's more, in the very same town too! If something like this can happen ten years ago before the events in StrikerS, would the TSAB still think that the Lost Logia are indeed, lost? Let's not forget that part of the TSAB's responsibilities include the retrieval of LLs, as already shown in the first season. The TSAB knows that the LLs are out there, the question is how well are they prepared to retake them.
Mirificus
2007-09-24, 10:24
They can do von Seckt all they want, but frankly, I don't think an analysis, given their lens, will do much more than further exhort the recruitment of mages and AMF training.
Further, the event will inevitably be averaged against the rest of their experience.
I presented the longer, more detailed post as an alternative to what the TSAB is currently doing since whatever the TSAB has been doing has resulted in what is is now.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1162091&postcount=175
For its persistent and systematic inability to consistently draw the right lessons from its experience and its ineptitude at training its junior officers and NCOs into effective leaders, the TSAB has nothing to blame except for itself.
To be fair to Nanoha, maybe you are judging her using the wrong ruler. Nanoha's job is a 戦技教導官. Wiki translates it as "Tactical Instructor", but that's really inaccurate - Combat/Martial Arts Instructor is the more accurate translation. A "tactical instructor" would be 戦術教導官, a level higher up in the way that the operational is higher than the tactical, and definitely a different field.
That is Nanoha's normal job. Her job in RF6 seemed to have added responsibilities. As CO of RF6, Hayate is responsible for RF6's combat readiness but it is Nanoha who was handling the actual training. Nanoha was responsible for training the Forwards to be ready for combat deployments and that clearly did call for tactical training.
But then, considering that her officer training was all of three months long, it is doubtful she is qualified to teach a lot of tactics anyway.
Nanoha was also in of command Stars squad which makes her doubly responsible for Stars squad's combat readiness.
A state of mind it may be, but certainly one that can be cultivated and maintained, especially if it's motivated by the universal understanding that that death is basically a lack of positive growth. And stagnation leads to decline (it's like the law of gravity. If you don't keep going up, the only way to go is down. And stagnant water turns putrid very fast).It isn't just black and white. The TSAB is going for the slow, slow advancement. For they know that reckless advancement leads to disaster, just look at the pre-TSAB history.
And I have a feeling that their history books will show that this incident as another example of pushing to far and put the blame at the TSAB high command.
It is not as if the TSAB are the only one with supposed superior technological advances. The Jail Incident shows that rogue elements have the capacity to challenge their claim to power, with the proper support and funding.However as far as we know there aren't any other governments and the only reason that Jail wasn't caught sooner is because the TSAB higher ups covered for him.
That isn't a normal situation.
If Yuuno alone can help Nanoha train herself into a AAA magus capable of fighting an equally strong magus with far more combat experience, I seriously doubt if other cannot do the same.She is an ace, Yuuno hit the in one in a billion shot. It isn't normal.
Since LLs can pretty much be found almost anywhere, with no restrictions as to who can use them, this reason alone should be motivating enough for TSAB to make sure that their forces are up to the task. Truely dangerous LL are rare. And TSAB forces are usually up to the task in controling it, and when they aren't they resort to the Arc cannon.
A very basic/simple strategy, which works in normal cases.
This is laughable, and even more so if the TSAB believes itself. Within the matter of months, two kinds of LLs, the Jewel Seeds and the even more dangerous Yaten no Madousho surfaced in this little country called Japan, and what's more, in the very same town too! If something like this can happen ten years ago before the events in StrikerS, would the TSAB still think that the Lost Logia are indeed, lost? I thought that you were talking about the source of lost logica, which is indeed lost or they wouldn't be called lost logica.
So what were you talking about?
Estavali
2007-09-24, 17:07
It isn't just black and white. The TSAB is going for the slow, slow advancement. For they know that reckless advancement leads to disaster, just look at the pre-TSAB history.
And I have a feeling that their history books will show that this incident as another example of pushing to far and put the blame at the TSAB high command.
I agree with you that reckless advancement leads to disaster. But can "slow advancement" excuse any organisation from taking at least adequate measures to handle disasters? In fact, we can argue that the scope of their responsibilities demands that the TSAB must have a practical and proven approach to dealing with insurgents and LL-related criminals, as well as the various forms of muscle (in terms of technology, military strength and diplomatic capability) required to support their methods. In a way, they have forced themselves into a situation where they cannot afford to loss out to anyone. In the StrikerS manga chapter 3, we learn from Chrono and Verossa's conversation that the TSAB is already having a very hard time maintaining peace not only in the various administrated worlds, but also in Midchilda Proper itself. And one major contributor to their problems are the LLs themselves and any fool who would misuse them.
(There are times when governments rely on the reputation of their military to make sure people listen to them. Uncivilised as it may seem, the threat to use force is often referred over the actual deed, since it helps to prevent unnecessary causalities.)
And it's not slow advancement in terms of technological and military growth that plagues the TSAB. Our friends here have repeatedly pointed out the holes in the TSAB's way of doing things. And recently we are also hinted how bad their manpower management may be, with Mirificus pointing out that both Alto and Vice could have performed better in other postings compared to what they were assigned to at the start of the season. The inability to recognise talent seems to be an ongoing thing in the TSAB, and even Hayate herself laments the fact that the TSAB regards elite magi or Rare Skill Users of her like to be no more but convenient tools, and they may not even be assigned to a posting that would bring their talents to full play. Is this not sad, not only to the magi in question, but also the TSAB itself?
Also, I don;t quite understand how future historians will regard this as an example of "pushing too far". Who pushed what too far?
However as far as we know there aren't any other governments and the only reason that Jail wasn't caught sooner is because the TSAB higher ups covered for him.
That isn't a normal situation.
Agreed.
She is an ace, Yuuno hit the in one in a billion shot. It isn't normal.
True.
However, I must add that being rare does not equate to being impossible. And a team of well-trained A-ranked or even B-ranked magi terrorists (equivalent to the Armed Troopers) can still post a sizable threat.
Imagine a squad of Tiana Lansters, equally cunning, ruthless and well-equipped in the hands of one like Scaglietti or worse.
Truely dangerous LL are rare. And TSAB forces are usually up to the task in controling it, and when they aren't they resort to the Arc cannon.
A very basic/simple strategy, which works in normal cases.
We don't really know if dangerous Lost Logia are really that rare. To be fair, we also don't know otherwise, but one of the fundamentals behind disaster preparation is to assume the worst scenario, which in our case would lead us to classify all LLs as dangerous. From the above mentioned conversation in StrikerS chapter 3, we also learn that the inappropriate use of LLs has already lead to the destruction of many worlds. Judging from this, we can safely say that our pessimistic assumption should not be off by much.
I thought that you were talking about the source of lost logica, which is indeed lost or they wouldn't be called lost logica.
So what were you talking about?
Oops, my apologies. I thought you were talking about the LLs themselves, and not Al Hazard.
I apologise if this seems rather incoherent.
I agree with you that reckless advancement leads to disaster. But can "slow advancement" excuse any organisation from taking at least adequate measures to handle disasters?
Depends if those disasters could have been forseen.
In fact, we can argue that the scope of their responsibilities demands that the TSAB must have a practical and proven approach to dealing with insurgents and LL-related criminals, as well as the various forms of muscle (in terms of technology, military strength and diplomatic capability) required to support their methods. Come and arrest them, if unsuccesfull, blow it up. I think that they usually have enough firepower to deal with the usual problem, but just not enough mages/ships.
Is this not sad, not only to the magi in question, but also the TSAB itself? Yep, the TSAB is quite full of itself. With stupid rules such limiting firepower in an unit and forbidding key personel from carrying their devices during a meeting. But that makes only sense if they are more afraid of internal rebellion then of being attacked by an outside force.
Also, I don;t quite understand how future historians will regard this as an example of "pushing too far". Who pushed what too far? The original cause of this situation are the TSAB brains. They created Jail and supported him so that he could give them advanced combat technology so that their power would grow.
Imagine a squad of Tiana Lansters, equally cunning, ruthless and well-equipped in the hands of one like Scaglietti or worse.Painfull, but it also limits them to, rare, upper level opponents that can support such advanced devices.
We don't really know if dangerous Lost Logia are really that rare. To be fair, we also don't know otherwise, but one of the fundamentals behind disaster preparation is to assume the worst scenario, which in our case would lead us to classify all LLs as dangerous. Then why allow an auction? As seen in the first part of StrikerS?
Avatar_notADV
2007-09-24, 18:31
One point about the TSAB...
In the real world, we don't have any examples of "too much progress". There are no examples of a society having progressed technologically to the point where that technology destroyed them; we can talk about global warming, and we certainly have myths of such societies, but there are no actual historical occurrences of that. It's GOOD to be more advanced than the other guy.
This is plainly not true for the TSAB. The events that destroyed Al Hazard or whatever you want to call it were plainly civilization-altering for them. The TSAB as a government is considerably younger than the United States, and the "mythological" period of the Velka Saints isn't any older than the later colonization period of our world, where we have extensive historical knowledge. Frankly, they got kicked in the collective balls, really hard. Getting too powerful, too successful, too advanced in their structure is a very, very bad thing that will bring the whole structure crashing down on everybody.
SF is full of civilizations that progress to a point and then kind of coast - they make advancements here and there, but not at the breakneck pace we're used to these days. Eventually you've got all the stuff you reasonably want, your people are pretty happy, and you're the only one left developing more powerful weaponry - why go past that point and threaten your current happy existence?
Of course, the TSAB has to deal with a lot of Lost Logia, some of which are genuinely dangerous to their entire civilization. This means they can't just put the guns down, as it were, but they can't afford to make the same mistake again just to counter the old threat...
Finally, it's hard to evaluate the TSAB in light of the context of a magical girl show, even if it is Nanoha. We had a small army and a super-battleship defeated by a freakin' squad, folks, with a bit of local forces for backup. Clausewitz and Rommel and even Sun Tzu simply fail in the face of that kind of power imbalance. The only things we can really conclude are that there are certainly a bloody lot of people in the TSAB, and Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate aren't the new Three Admirals (well, maybe they aren't), so theoretically the rest of them should be something more than useless. And for all we know, they are - Chrono, for example, kicked a lot of ass personally, back in A's. But obviously there's something in the structure of their training and organization that is preventing the cream from rising to the top...
...or it's entirely possible that the naval forces simply co-opt the best officers and the ground forces are the dregs that can't manage the prestige foreign postings. Again with the Imperial Britain model - there's no glory belonging to the rag-tag army that's holding the ground that nobody can invade because the navy's doing the real job of defense. You don't rise socially or politically with an army commission - unless that's the best you can manage, in which case you're already at a disadvantage compared to the dashing heroes of the navy. And the TSAB has it even worse, because they don't have an India (that we know about)... they aren't really imperialists, so there's no foreign places for that army to be deployed to in order to get some battle experience and honors.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-24, 19:16
It isn't just black and white. The TSAB is going for the slow, slow advancement. For they know that reckless advancement leads to disaster, just look at the pre-TSAB history.
We are not even talking technology here, but basic tactics. Since they apparently had warfare in the past, tactics (and operational art, and strategy, and basic SIGINT philosophy) had not only stagnated, but regressed.
And I have a feeling that their history books will show that this incident as another example of pushing to far and put the blame at the TSAB high command.
If that's so, then that's another case of them coming to the wrong solutions. Technology aside, the scenario on the tactics level is basicaly about a division (corps?) level force with Heavy Air Support managing to assemble in relative secrecy, and an emergency defense being laid by the TSAB. Fortunately for them, the droids apparently weren't even advancing to try to overrun the line (see Ep24)
However as far as we know there aren't any other governments and the only reason that Jail wasn't caught sooner is because the TSAB higher ups covered for him.
If they had proper SIGINT, they'd have located his little den the moment he started talking to Lutecia back in Ep7.
She is an ace, Yuuno hit the in one in a billion shot. It isn't normal.
Nice just asserting the probability.
Truely dangerous LL are rare. And TSAB forces are usually up to the task in controling it, and when they aren't they resort to the Arc cannon.
When solutions like blowing away 100 million natives are acceptable to the Midchildrans, "up to the task" takes on a whole different (lower) meaning.
Mirificus
2007-09-24, 19:54
There's Seasons 1 and 2. You might notice that Asura had to be specially outfitted with the Arcenciel in response to a clear threat. Even with Chrono's fleet, according to you, there were only 6 ships seen firing (I'd check Ep26 tonight for myself when I get home). IIRC, there were more than 6 ships in Chrono's fleet, so this means that not every ship was armed.
On one hand we have a sample size of a one-ship patrol that ends up defending a backwater world.
On the other hand, we have at least six ships of a completely different class defending Midchilda. Even if we presumed that Chrono has other ships in his fleet that are unarmed, it really changes nothing as a navy with non-trivial force projection capabilities will usually have more auxiliary ships than warships. The greater the firepower and range of a fleet, the greater the logistical train it entails. What was really notable was that the TSAB had both the means and the will to concentrate six ships armed with conventional weapons (by TSAB standards) into a single task force against a single target and have them attack it in concert. The weapons they were using are clearly far more precise than Arc-en-ciel. If it was truly a last ditch effort, the TSAB could simply have accepted the collateral damage of an Arc-en-ciel-class weapon which brings us back to the original quotes regarding the TSAB Navy.
The ships mostly serves as a mode of transport and if the mages don't win, then they blow the lost logica up. They seem to have the wrong weapons or lack of them for any real military action.
Read the quote, I am talking about the design itself and how the TSAB uses it. The cannon is a last ditch option. And will be used on things that are just too dangerous to remain in this universe.
There little evidence upon which to make any conclusions with regards to the design intent of the class of ship Chrono used to destroy the Cradle, let alone its primary missions. It may very well be a transport but we weren't shown any evidence of that. In fact, we haven't seen them transport anything.
It seems pretty difficult to reach the conclusion that the and primary role of those six ships, as originally designed, is as a mode of transport for mages unless you had already assumed that they were transports.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-24, 21:44
On one hand we have a sample size of one ship patrolling a backwater world.
I'd argue that a lone ship patrol, far away from support, should be assigned to a ship with at least some armament to allow it to handle a wider range of missions without screaming for help. Obviously, you'd keep your battleships (if the TSAB has any) close to home, but you'd send your frigate, not an unarmed ship. Unless all you have on regular duty are unarmed ships.
But then, maybe we could be optimistic and say that the TSAB Sailing Force Staff learned that ships need to be armed thanks to YnS.
On the other hand, we have world that the TSAB has a vested interest in defending. Even if we presumed that Chrono has other ships in his fleet that are unarmed, it changes nothing as navies with non-trivial force projection capabilities usually have more auxiliary ships than warships.
They are sortieing in this case for three hours, not three months. I'm guessing they just grabbed everything that would steam on short notice.
There is very little evidence upon which to make any conclusions with regards to the design intent of the class of ship Chrono used to destroy the Cradle, let alone its primary missions. It may very well be a transport but we weren't shown any evidence of that. In fact, they weren't shown to transport anything.
How would you reach the conclusion that the six ships are transports unless you had already assumed that their primary role is as a transport?
He probably did it by averaging the pacifistic historical evidence. Personally, I suspect that the armament on the six ships were hastily grafted on by some combination of Lindy, Leti and Chrono (perhaps with the 3 Admirals helping out) over the previous week as a contingency measure.
They may not know that the Doc was prepping a ship, but the cannons will be useful against a large range of contingency measures. To support this, for all the supposed confusion at Sailing Force HQ, Chrono's fleet did sortie pretty fast - the Cradle sortied, and almost immediately Chrono's fleet sortied. Given the usual readiness status of the TSAB (they take 3 hours just to prep 40 mages to the point when they could travel, and organizing a ship for combat is more complex than a platoon), for them to have moved so fast suggested they had already been on maximum alert and specially prepped, rather than random armed ships being suddenly called to action.
As for the mages, I'd strongly suspect every mage that could be crammed onto the ships were in fact there. In the event, there was nothing to do by the time the fleet arrived but to scuttle the Cradle, but assuming a worst case scenario where RF6 was decimated (as nearly happened), the mages will be needed for a wide range of possible duties, from new teams to assault the Cradle from the inside (maybe Chrono will then get his sorry a*s off his chair), to assisting with the drones down below.
As it is, a large force of mages will be helpful for the post-battle cleanup.
Mirificus
2007-09-24, 22:22
I'd argue that a lone ship patrol, far away from support, should be assigned to a ship with at least some armament to allow it to handle a wider range of missions without screaming for help. Obviously, you'd keep your battleships (if the TSAB has any) close to home, but you'd send your frigate, not an unarmed ship. Unless all you have on regular duty are unarmed ships.
But then, maybe we could be optimistic and say that the TSAB Sailing Force Staff learned that ships need to be armed thanks to YnS.
No argument with that.
They are sortieing in this case for three hours, not three months. I'm guessing they just grabbed everything that would steam on short notice.
Unless I'm mistaken, that would imply that any other TSAB ships in Chrono's fleet are transporting some kind of reserve force, are tasked with evacuating Midchilda, are capable of providing some kind of active support or that the TSAB is sending empty ships with no real capabilities for no particular reason.
He probably did it by averaging the pacifistic historical evidence.
Which would give trends. In the absence of evidence, there is no reason to simply assume the trend held true. Even more so when potential evidence to the contrary presents itself. Confirmation bias is a logical fallacy.
Personally, I suspect that the armament on the six ships were hastily grafted on by some combination of Lindy, Leti and Chrono (perhaps with the 3 Admirals helping out) over the previous week as a contingency measure.
Maybe.
They may not know that the Doc was prepping a ship, but the cannons will be useful against a large range of contingency measures. To support this, for all the supposed confusion at Sailing Force HQ, Chrono's fleet did sortie pretty fast - the Cradle sortied, and almost immediately Chrono's fleet sortied. Given the usual readiness status of the TSAB (they take 3 hours just to prep 40 mages to the point when they could travel, and organizing a ship for combat is more complex than a platoon), for them to have moved so fast suggested they had already been on maximum alert and specially prepped, rather than random armed ships being suddenly called to action.
As for the mages, I'd strongly suspect every mage that could be crammed onto the ships were in fact there. In the event, there was nothing to do by the time the fleet arrived but to scuttle the Cradle, but assuming a worst case scenario where RF6 was decimated (as nearly happened), the mages will be needed for a wide range of possible duties, from new teams to assault the Cradle from the inside (maybe Chrono will then get his sorry a*s off his chair), to assisting with the drones down below.
As it is, a large force of mages will be helpful for the post-battle cleanup.
That would be the rational thing to do but then the TSAB is hardly a rational actor.
Now the main question is: How would the TSAB recover from this? But taking into account the in-universe factors such as culture.
panzerfan
2007-09-25, 11:02
Whatever it is, TSAB has just lost the very tip of its hierarchy in one swoop and quite possibly there is no replacement for any one of the heads... it being an inefficient policing organization knee-deep in internal affairs (just look at YnS scenario) do not help.
There won't be an answer to the question of TSAB making a recovery I think for some time. None of the brains thought of true successors to their positions and Regius consolidated powers upon himself, also with no regard to grooming heir. Lindy's faction, with the three admirals as their silent backers, might rise to prominence, given that they got all the glory from the Cradle fiasco now that their detractors have been silenced forever thanks to Scaglietti's clean-up work.
It remains to be seen if the three admirals will step up to the vacuum or they would leave the Saint Church + Halloun to assume position of power.
Going back to military... it will take nothing short of a total reorganization for TSAB to bare any resemblance to an actual model military. A personality such as Regius would've been great for that, but his aims were too shallow. I have seen no Heinz Guderian, no Zhuge Liang and no Bismarck in this series to far for that to happen... or for that matter, not even a tactician such as Rommel. Maybe the closest in a thinking field officer is Major Nakajima. I wouldn't expect it to be discussed et al, although this certainly makes for good material for people writing fanfics.
I'm somewhat disappointed that, even up to the last episode, we never found out widespread is the knowledge that the TSAB High Council are 3 brains in jars.
The Brains never thought of heirs because they felt like they would be around forver. Oh sure, they knew intellectually they wouldn't last much longer, but they still thought of themselves as indespensible to the TSAB, irreplaceable. Regius never needed to think about a successor, the High Council would choose one. Or would have, if they hadn't been assassinated before him.
The three admirals won't be stepping forward. They've retired from that position decades ago. They can advise, but someone new will have to lead Ground Forces.
In the end, the fallout from the Scaglietti case is... surprisingly limited. The High Council is dead, but the TSAB may have a chance to forge its own path now. GF lost its CinC, some highly-regarded experimental weapons, but the rest of its command structure and forces appear to be mostly intact. Main Office and the Dimensional Fleet are completely intact.
panzerfan
2007-09-25, 12:19
The main branch's political games of course is beyond the scope of this season, which is a shame. (wonder if the attention will be on the fleets in the next Nanoha...)
If one were to compare the effectiveness of TSAB with other equivalents like the Galaxy Police/Galaxy Army of Tenchi Muyo, how would they stand up?
Speaking of political games, notice how Main Branch and the High Council don't seem to be eye-to-eye? The HC was supporting the Combat Cyborg program but Main Branch banned the technology. Sometimes, I get the feeling that the HC were a last minute addition to the StrikerS setting. Not properly integrated as the other elements.
wonder if the attention will be on the fleets in the next Nanoha...
Probably not. That would require a fleet vs fleet situation, something that Nanoha and co are not qualified to deal with. Fleet vs supership has already been done, courtesy of the Cradle.
panzerfan
2007-09-25, 14:21
I do not mean it in that sense. I mean to look at the personals within the fleet instead of the ground HQ.
As for animes, examples where military organization and politics are discussed in length, such as Legend of Galactic Heroes and Zipang do exist, but comparing those wouldn't be fair to Nanoha series. I can expect no more from the series than what we might see in say, Gundam merchandise.
arkhangelsk
2007-09-25, 21:41
Speaking of political games, notice how Main Branch and the High Council don't seem to be eye-to-eye? The HC was supporting the Combat Cyborg program but Main Branch banned the technology. Sometimes, I get the feeling that the HC were a last minute addition to the StrikerS setting. Not properly integrated as the other elements.
Personally, I saw the so called High Council as a shadow government or even just a shadow advisory team. Not many except the top even knows about them. Nobody gets to know that they are but mere brains in a jar. They advise and can quietly mobilize some assets but have little real authority.
Which is why I think that the TSAB won't really be badly affected. They just lost a meddling advisory team that never shows up in person. The HQ is intact, the Navy is intact, the GF just has to have the next senior officer replace Regius and rebuild the building.
And of course, since they weren't badly affected, it'd be the same old TSAB. Same old flaws. For the next time...
Probably not. That would require a fleet vs fleet situation, something that Nanoha and co are not qualified to deal with. Fleet vs supership has already been done, courtesy of the Cradle.
What happened can hardly be called "done". That was a scuttling.
Mirificus
2007-09-28, 22:30
In light of the the talk of TSAB culture and its future, I thought that this article about the US Army I came across recently brings up some interesting issues, of which quite a few should seem familiar. While hardly a direct mirror of the TSAB, the article shows some of the cultural problems that a real military is currently facing.
August 26, 2007, New York Times
Challenging the Generals
By FRED KAPLAN
On Aug. 1, Gen. Richard Cody, the United States Army’s vice chief of staff, flew to the sprawling base at Fort Knox, Ky., to talk with the officers enrolled in the Captains Career Course. These are the Army’s elite junior officers. Of the 127 captains taking the five-week course, 119 had served one or two tours of duty in Iraq or Afghanistan, mainly as lieutenants. Nearly all would soon be going back as company commanders. A captain named Matt Wignall, who recently spent 16 months in Iraq with a Stryker brigade combat team, asked Cody, the Army’s second-highest-ranking general, what he thought of a recent article by Lt. Col. Paul Yingling titled “A Failure in Generalship.” The article, a scathing indictment that circulated far and wide, including in Iraq, accused the Army’s generals of lacking “professional character,” “creative intelligence” and “moral courage.”
Yingling’s article — published in the May issue of Armed Forces Journal — noted that a key role of generals is to advise policy makers and the public on the means necessary to win wars. “If the general remains silent while the statesman commits a nation to war with insufficient means,” he wrote, “he shares culpability for the results.” Today’s generals “failed to envision the conditions of future combat and prepare their forces accordingly,” and they failed to advise policy makers on how much force would be necessary to win and stabilize Iraq. These failures, he insisted, stemmed not just from the civilian leaders but also from a military culture that “does little to reward creativity and moral courage.” He concluded, “As matters stand now, a private who loses a rifle suffers far greater consequences than a general who loses a war.”
General Cody looked around the auditorium, packed with men and women in uniform — most of them in their mid-20s, three decades his junior but far more war-hardened than he or his peers were at the same age — and turned Captain Wignall’s question around. “You all have just come from combat, you’re young captains,” he said, addressing the entire room. “What’s your opinion of the general officers corps?”
Over the next 90 minutes, five captains stood up, recited their names and their units and raised several of Yingling’s criticisms. One asked why the top generals failed to give political leaders full and frank advice on how many troops would be needed in Iraq. One asked whether any generals “should be held accountable” for the war’s failures. One asked if the Army should change the way it selected generals. Another said that general officers were so far removed from the fighting, they wound up “sheltered from the truth” and “don’t know what’s going on.”
Challenges like this are rare in the military, which depends on obedience and hierarchy. Yet the scene at Fort Knox reflected a brewing conflict between the Army’s junior and senior officer corps — lieutenants and captains on one hand, generals on the other, with majors and colonels (“field-grade officers”) straddling the divide and sometimes taking sides. The cause of this tension is the war in Iraq, but the consequences are broader. They revolve around the obligations of an officer, the nature of future warfare and the future of the Army itself. And these tensions are rising at a time when the war has stretched the Army’s resources to the limit, when junior officers are quitting at alarming rates and when political leaders are divided or uncertain about America’s — and its military’s — role in the world.
Colonel Yingling’s article gave these tensions voice; it spelled out the issues and the stakes; and it located their roots in the Army’s own institutional culture, specifically in the growing disconnect between this culture — which is embodied by the generals — and the complex realities that junior officers, those fighting the war, are confronting daily on the ground. The article was all the more potent because it was written by an active-duty officer still on the rise. It was a career risk, just as, on a smaller scale, standing up and asking the Army vice chief of staff about the article was a risk.
In response to the captains’ questions, General Cody acknowledged, as senior officers often do now, that the Iraq war was “mismanaged” in its first phases. The original plan, he said, did not anticipate the disbanding of the Iraqi Army, the disruption of oil production or the rise of an insurgency. Still, he rejected the broader critique. “I think we’ve got great general officers that are meeting tough demands,” he insisted. He railed instead at politicians for cutting back the military in the 1990s. “Those are the people who ought to be held accountable,” he said.
Before and just after America’s entry into World War II, Gen. George Marshall, the Army’s chief of staff, purged 31 of his 42 division and corps commanders, all of them generals, and 162 colonels on the grounds that they were unsuited for battle. Over the course of the war, he rid the Army of 500 colonels. He reached deep into the lower ranks to find talented men to replace them. For example, Gen. James Gavin, the highly decorated commander of the 82nd Airborne Division, was a mere major in December 1941 when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Today, President Bush maintains that the nation is in a war against terrorism — what Pentagon officials call “the long war” — in which civilization itself is at stake. Yet six years into this war, the armed forces — not just the Army, but also the Air Force, Navy and Marines — have changed almost nothing about the way their promotional systems and their entire bureaucracies operate.
On the lower end of the scale, things have changed — but for the worse. West Point cadets are obligated to stay in the Army for five years after graduating. In a typical year, about a quarter to a third of them decide not to sign on for another term. In 2003, when the class of 1998 faced that decision, only 18 percent quit the force: memories of 9/11 were still vivid; the war in Afghanistan seemed a success; and war in Iraq was under way. Duty called, and it seemed a good time to be an Army officer. But last year, when the 905 officers from the class of 2001 had to make their choice to stay or leave, 44 percent quit the Army. It was the service’s highest loss rate in three decades.
Col. Don Snider, a longtime professor at West Point, sees a “trust gap” between junior and senior officers. There has always been a gap, to some degree. What’s different now is that many of the juniors have more combat experience than the seniors. They have come to trust their own instincts more than they trust orders. They look at the hand they’ve been dealt by their superiors’ decisions, and they feel let down.
The gap is widening further, Snider told me, because of this war’s operating tempo, the “unrelenting pace” at which soldiers are rotated into Iraq for longer tours — and a greater number of tours — than they signed up for. Many soldiers, even those who support the war, are wearying of the endless cycle. The cycle is a result of two decisions. The first occurred at the start of the war, when the senior officers assented to the decision by Donald Rumsfeld, then the secretary of defense, to send in far fewer troops than they had recommended. The second took place two years later, well into the insurgency phase of the war, when top officers declared they didn’t need more troops, though most of them knew that in fact they did. “Many junior officers,” Snider said, “see this op tempo as stemming from the failure of senior officers to speak out.”
Paul Yingling did not set out to cause a stir. He grew up in a working-class part of Pittsburgh. His father owned a bar; no one in his family went to college. He joined the Army in 1984 at age 17, because he was a troubled kid — poor grades and too much drinking and brawling — who wanted to turn his life around, and he did. He went to Duquesne University, a small Catholic school, on an R.O.T.C. scholarship; went on active duty; rose through the ranks; and, by the time of the 1991 Persian Gulf war, was a lieutenant commanding an artillery battery, directing cannon fire against Saddam Hussein’s army.
“When I was in the gulf war, I remember thinking, This is easier than it was at training exercises,” he told me earlier this month. He was sent to Bosnia in December 1995 as part of the first peacekeeping operation after the signing of the Dayton accords, which ended the war in Bosnia. “This was nothing like training,” he recalled. Like most of his fellow soldiers, he was trained almost entirely for conventional combat operations: straightforward clashes, brigades against brigades. (Even now, about 70 percent of the training at the Captains Career Course is for conventional warfare.) In Bosnia, there was no clear enemy, no front line and no set definition of victory. “I kept wondering why things weren’t as well rehearsed as they’d been in the gulf war,” he said.
Upon returning, he spent the next six years pondering that question. He studied international relations at the University of Chicago’s graduate school and wrote a master’s thesis about the circumstances under which outside powers can successfully intervene in civil wars. (One conclusion: There aren’t many.) He then taught at West Point, where he also read deeply in Western political theory. Yingling was deployed to Iraq in July 2003 as an executive officer collecting loose munitions and training Iraq’s civil-defense corps. “The corps deserted or joined the insurgency on first contact,” he recalled. “It was a disaster.”
In the late fall of 2003, his first tour of duty over, Yingling was sent to Fort Sill, Okla., the Army’s main base for artillery soldiers, and wrote long memos to the local generals, suggesting new approaches to the war in Iraq. One suggestion was that since artillery rockets were then playing little role, artillery soldiers should become more skilled in training Iraqi soldiers; that, he thought, would be vital to Iraq’s future stability. No one responded to his memos, he says. He volunteered for another tour of combat and became deputy commander of the Third Armored Cavalry Regiment, which was fighting jihadist insurgents in the northern Iraqi town of Tal Afar.
The commander of the third regiment, Col. H. R. McMaster, was a historian as well as a decorated soldier. He figured that Iraq could not build its own institutions, political or military, until its people felt safe. So he devised his own plan, in which he and his troops cleared the town of insurgents — and at the same time formed alliances and built trust with local sheiks and tribal leaders. The campaign worked for a while, but only because McMaster flooded the city with soldiers — about 1,000 of them per square kilometer. Earlier, as Yingling drove around to other towns and villages, he saw that most Iraqis were submitting to whatever gang or militia offered them protection, because United States and coalition forces weren’t anywhere around. And that was because the coalition had entered the war without enough troops. Yingling was seeing the consequences of this decision up close in the terrible insecurity of most Iraqis’ lives.
In February 2006, Yingling returned to Fort Sill. That April, six retired Army and Marine generals publicly criticized Rumsfeld, who was still the secretary of defense, for sending too few troops to Iraq. Many junior and field-grade officers reacted with puzzlement or disgust. Their common question: Where were these generals when they still wore the uniform? Why didn’t they speak up when their words might have counted? One general who had spoken up, Eric Shinseki, then the Army chief of staff, was publicly upbraided and ostracized by Rumsfeld; other active-duty generals got the message and stayed mum.
That December, Yingling attended a Purple Heart ceremony for soldiers wounded in Iraq. “I was watching these soldiers wheeling into this room, or in some cases having to be wheeled in by their wives or mothers,” he recalled. “And I said to myself: ‘These soldiers were doing their jobs. The senior officers were not doing theirs. We’re not giving our soldiers the tools and training to succeed.’ I had to go public.”
Soon after Yingling’s article appeared, Maj. Gen. Jeff Hammond, commander of the Fourth Infantry Division at Fort Hood, Tex., reportedly called a meeting of the roughly 200 captains on his base, all of whom had served in Iraq, for the purpose of putting this brazen lieutenant colonel in his place. According to The Wall Street Journal, he told his captains that Army generals are “dedicated, selfless servants.” Yingling had no business judging generals because he has “never worn the shoes of a general.” By implication, Hammond was warning his captains that they had no business judging generals, either. Yingling was stationed at Fort Hood at the time, preparing to take command of an artillery battalion. From the steps of his building, he could see the steps of General Hammond’s building. He said he sent the general a copy of his article before publication as a courtesy, and he never heard back; nor was he notified of the general’s meeting with his captains.
The “trust gap” between junior and senior officers is hardly universal. Many junior officers at Fort Knox and elsewhere have no complaints about the generals — or regard the matter as way above their pay grade. As Capt. Ryan Kranc, who has served two tours in Iraq, one as a commander, explained to me, “I’m more interested in whether my guys can secure a convoy.” He dismissed complaints about troop shortages. “When you’re in a system, you’re never going to get everything you ask for,” he said, “but I still have to accomplish a mission. That’s my job. If they give me a toothpick, dental floss and a good hunting knife, I will accomplish the mission.”
An hour after General Cody’s talk at Fort Knox, several captains met to discuss the issue over beers. Capt. Garrett Cathcart, who has served in Iraq as a platoon leader, said: “The culture of the Army is to accomplish the mission, no matter what. That’s a good thing.” Matt Wignall, who was the first captain to ask General Cody about the Yingling article, agreed that a mission-oriented culture was “a good thing, but it can be dangerous.” He added: “It is so rare to hear someone in the Army say, ‘No, I can’t do that.’ But sometimes it takes courage to say, ‘I don’t have the capability.’ ” Before the Iraq war, when Rumsfeld overrode the initial plans of the senior officers, “somebody should have put his foot down,” Wignall said.
Lt. Col. Allen Gill, who just retired as director of the R.O.T.C. program at Georgetown University, has heard versions of this discussion among his cadets for years. He raises a different concern about the Army’s “can do” culture. “You’re not brought up in the Army to tell people how you can’t get things done, and that’s fine, that’s necessary,” he said. “But when you get promoted to a higher level of strategic leadership, you have to have a different outlook. You’re supposed to make clear, cold calculations of risk — of the probabilities of victory and defeat.”
The problem, he said, is that it’s hard for officers — hard for people in any profession — to switch their basic approach to life so abruptly. As Yingling put it in his article, “It is unreasonable to expect that an officer who spends 25 years conforming to institutional expectations will emerge as an innovator in his late 40s.”
Yingling’s commander at Tal Afar, H. R. McMaster, documented a similar crisis in the case of the Vietnam War. Twenty years after the war, McMaster wrote a doctoral dissertation that he turned into a book called “Dereliction of Duty.” It concluded that the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the 1960s betrayed their professional obligations by failing to provide unvarnished military advice to President Lyndon B. Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara as they plunged into the Southeast Asian quagmire. When McMaster’s book was published in 1997, Gen. Hugh Shelton, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs, ordered all commanders to read it — and to express disagreements to their superiors, even at personal risk. Since then, “Dereliction of Duty” has been recommended reading for Army officers.
Yet before the start of the Iraq war and during the early stages of the fighting, the Joint Chiefs once again fell silent. Justin Rosenbaum, the captain at Fort Knox who asked General Cody whether any generals would be held accountable for the failures in Iraq, said he was disturbed by this parallel between the two wars. “We’ve read the McMaster book,” he said. “It’s startling that we’re repeating the same mistakes.”
McMaster’s own fate has reinforced these apprehensions. President Bush has singled out McMaster’s campaign at Tal Afar as a model of successful strategy. Gen. David Petraeus, now commander of United States forces in Iraq, frequently consults with McMaster in planning his broader counterinsurgency campaign. Yet the Army’s promotion board — the panel of generals that selects which few dozen colonels advance to the rank of brigadier general — has passed over McMaster two years in a row.
McMaster’s nonpromotion has not been widely reported, yet every officer I spoke with knew about it and had pondered its implications. One colonel, who asked not to be identified because he didn’t want to risk his own ambitions, said: “Everyone studies the brigadier-general promotion list like tarot cards — who makes it, who doesn’t. It communicates what qualities are valued and not valued.” A retired Army two-star general, who requested anonymity because he didn’t want to anger his friends on the promotion boards, agreed. “When you turn down a guy like McMaster,” he told me, “that sends a potent message to everybody down the chain. I don’t know, maybe there were good reasons not to promote him. But the message everybody gets is: ‘We’re not interested in rewarding people like him. We’re not interested in rewarding agents of change.’ ”
Members of the board, he said, want to promote officers whose careers look like their own. Today’s generals rose through the officer corps of the peacetime Army. Many of them fought in the last years of Vietnam, and some fought in the gulf war. But to the extent they have combat experience, it has been mainly tactical, not strategic. They know how to secure an objective on a battlefield, how to coordinate firepower and maneuver. But they don’t necessarily know how to deal with an enemy that’s flexible, with a scenario that has not been rehearsed.
“Those rewarded are the can-do, go-to people,” the retired two-star general told me. “Their skill is making the trains run on time. So why are we surprised that, when the enemy becomes adaptive, we get caught off guard? If you raise a group of plumbers, you shouldn’t be upset if they can’t do theoretical physics.”
There are, of course, exceptions, most notably General Petraeus. He wrote an article for a recent issue of The American Interest, a Washington-based public-policy journal, urging officers to attend civilian graduate schools and get out of their “intellectual comfort zones” — useful for dealing with today’s adaptive enemies.
Yet many Army officers I spoke with say Petraeus’s view is rare among senior officers. Two colonels told me that when they were captains, their commanders strongly discouraged them from attending not just graduate school but even the Army’s Command and General Staff College, warning that it would be a diversion from their career paths. “I got the impression that I’d be better off counting bedsheets in the Baghdad Embassy than studying at Harvard,” one colonel said.
Harvard’s merits aside, some junior officers agree that the promotion system discourages breadth. Capt. Kip Kowalski, an infantry officer in the Captains Career Course at Fort Knox, is a proud soldier in the can-do tradition. He is impatient with critiques of superiors; he prefers to stay focused on his job. “But I am worried,” he said, “that generals these days are forced to be narrow.” Kowalski would like to spend a few years in a different branch of the Army — say, as a foreign area officer — and then come back to combat operations. He says he thinks the switch would broaden his skills, give him new perspectives and make him a better officer. But the rules don’t allow switching back and forth among specialties. “I have to decide right now whether I want to do ops or something else,” he said. “If I go F. A. O., I can never come back.”
In October 2006, seven months before his essay on the failure of generalship appeared, Yingling and Lt. Col. John Nagl, another innovative officer, wrote an article for Armed Forces Journal called “New Rules for New Enemies,” in which they wrote: “The best way to change the organizational culture of the Army is to change the pathways for professional advancement within the officer corps. The Army will become more adaptive only when being adaptive offers the surest path to promotion.”
In late June, Yingling took command of an artillery battalion. This means he will most likely be promoted to full colonel. This assignment, however, was in the works nearly a year ago, long before he wrote his critique of the generals. His move and probable promotion say nothing about whether he’ll be promoted further — or whether, as some of his admirers fear, his career will now grind to a halt.
Nagl — the author of an acclaimed book about counterinsurgency (“Learning to Eat Soup With a Knife”), a former operations officer in Iraq and the subject of a New York Times Magazine article a few years ago — has since taken command of a unit at Fort Riley, Kan., that trains United States soldiers to be advisers to Iraqi security forces. Pentagon officials have said that these advisers are crucial to America’s future military policy. Yet Nagl has written that soldiers have been posted to this unit “on an ad hoc basis” and that few of the officers selected to train them have ever been advisers themselves.
Lt. Col. Isaiah Wilson, a professor at West Point and former planning officer in Iraq with the 101st Airborne Division, said the fate of Nagl’s unit — the degree to which it attracted capable, ambitious soldiers — depended on the answer to one question: “Will serving as an adviser be seen as equal to serving as a combat officer in the eyes of the promotion boards? The jury is still out.”
“Guys like Yingling, Nagl and McMaster are the canaries in the coal mine of Army reform,” the retired two-star general I spoke with told me. “Will they get promoted to general? If they do, that’s a sign that real change is happening. If they don’t, that’s a sign that the traditional culture still rules.”
Failure sometimes compels an institution to change its ways. The last time the Army undertook an overhaul was in the wake of the Vietnam War. At the center of those reforms was an officer named Huba Wass de Czege. Wass de Czege (pronounced VOSH de tsay-guh) graduated from West Point and served two tours of duty in Vietnam, the second as a company commander in the Central Highlands. He devised innovative tactics, leading four-man teams — at the time they were considered unconventionally small — on ambush raids at night. His immediate superiors weren’t keen on his approach or attitude, despite his successes. But after the war ended and a few creative officers took over key posts, they recruited Wass de Czege to join them.
In 1982, he was ordered to rewrite the Army’s field manual on combat operations. At his own initiative, he read the classics of military strategy — Clausewitz’s “On War,” Sun Tzu’s “Art of War,” B. H. Liddell Hart’s “Strategy” — none of which had been on his reading list at West Point. And he incorporated many of their lessons along with his own experiences from Vietnam. Where the old edition assumed static clashes of firepower and attrition, Wass de Czege’s revision emphasized speed, maneuver and taking the offensive. He was asked to create a one-year graduate program for the most promising young officers. Called the School of Advanced Military Studies, or SAMS, it brought strategic thinking back into the Army — at least for a while.
Now a retired one-star general, though an active Army consultant, Wass de Czege has publicly praised Yingling’s article. (Yingling was a graduate of SAMS in 2002, well after its founder moved on.) In an essay for the July issue of Army magazine, Wass de Czege wrote that today’s junior officers “feel they have much relevant experience [that] those senior to them lack,” yet the senior officers “have not listened to them.” These junior officers, he added, remind him of his own generation of captains, who held the same view during and just after Vietnam.
“The crux of the problem in our Army,” Wass de Czege wrote, “is that officers are not systematically taught how to cope with unstructured problems.” Counterinsurgency wars, like those in Iraq and Afghanistan, are all about unstructured problems. The junior and field-grade officers, who command at the battalion level and below, deal with unstructured problems — adapting to the insurgents’ ever-changing tactics — as a matter of course. Many generals don’t, and never had to, deal with such problems, either in war or in their training drills. Many of them may not fully recognize just how distinct and difficult these problems are.
Speaking by phone from his home outside Fort Leavenworth, Wass de Czege emphasized that he was impressed with most of today’s senior officers. Compared with those of his time, they are more capable, open and intelligent (most officers today, junior and senior, have college degrees, for instance). “You’re not seeing any of the gross incompetence that was common in my day,” he said. He added, however, that today’s generals are still too slow to change. “The Army tends to be consensus-driven at the top,” he said. “There’s a good side to that. We’re steady as a rock. You call us to arms, we’ll be there. But when you roll a lot of changes at us, it takes awhile. The young guys have to drive us to it.”
The day after his talk at Fort Knox, General Cody, back at his office in the Pentagon, reiterated his “faith in the leadership of the general officers.” Asked about complaints that junior officers are forced to follow narrow paths to promotion, he said, “We’re trying to do just the opposite.” In the works are new incentives to retain officers, including not just higher bonuses but free graduate school and the right to choose which branch of the Army to serve in. “I don’t want everybody to think there’s one road map to colonel or general,” he said. He denied that promotion boards picked candidates in their own image. This year, he said, he was on the board that picked new brigadier generals, and one of them, Jeffrey Buchanan, had never commanded a combat brigade; his last assignment was training Iraqi security forces. One colonel, interviewed later, said: “That’s a good sign. They’ve never picked anybody like that before. But that’s just one out of 38 brigadier generals they picked. It’s still very much the exception.”
There is a specter haunting the debate over Yingling’s article — the specter of Gen. Douglas MacArthur. During World War II, Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower threatened to resign if the civilian commanders didn’t order air support for the invasion of Normandy. President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Prime Minister Winston Churchill acceded. But during the Korean War, MacArthur — at the time, perhaps the most popular public figure in America — demanded that President Truman let him attack China. Truman fired him. History has redeemed both presidents’ decisions. But in terms of the issues that Yingling, McMaster and others have raised, was there really a distinction? Weren’t both generals speaking what they regarded as “truth to power”?
The very discussion of these issues discomforts many senior officers because they take very seriously the principle of civilian control. They believe it is not their place to challenge the president or his duly appointed secretary of defense, certainly not in public, especially not in wartime. The ethical codes are ambiguous on how firmly an officer can press an argument without crossing the line. So, many generals prefer to keep a substantial distance from that line — to keep the prospect of a constitutional crisis from even remotely arising.
On a blog Yingling maintains at the Web site of Small Wars Journal, an independent journal of military theory, he has acknowledged these dilemmas, but he hasn’t disentangled them. For example, if generals do speak up, and the president ignores their advice, what should they do then — salute and follow orders, resign en masse or criticize the president publicly? At this level of discussion, the junior and midlevel officers feel uncomfortable, too.
Yingling’s concern is more narrowly professional, but it should matter greatly to future policy makers who want to consult their military advisers. The challenge is how to ensure that generals possess the experience and analytical prowess to formulate sound military advice and the “moral courage,” as Yingling put it, to take responsibility for that advice and for its resulting successes or failures. The worry is that too few generals today possess either set of qualities — and that the promotional system impedes the rise of officers who do.
As today’s captains and majors come up through the ranks, the culture may change. One question is how long that will take. Another question is whether the most innovative of those junior officers will still be in the Army by the time the top brass decides reform is necessary. As Colonel Wilson, the West Point instructor, put it, “When that moment comes, will there be enough of the right folks in the right slots to make the necessary changes happen?”
Fred Kaplan is the national security columnist for Slate and author of the forthcoming book “Daydream Believers: How a Few Grand Ideas Wrecked American Power.”
Mirificus
2007-09-29, 18:25
Here are some comments about the article by some officers who are currently serving or were serving recently:
ALTHOUGH: I just saw a lecture by Peter Barnett of the "Pentagon's New Map". He did bring up a good case that Clinton essentially refused to be a commander in chief after the fiasco with Don't Ask/Don't Tell and let the generals run rampant with creating their own doctrines. So the 90's were essentially wasted with the JCS coming up with their "future of warfare" which oh by the way looked a lot like the Gulf War, and vehemently fought any attempt to bring COIN into the limelight, even though the bulk of operations that Clinton wanted/executed were essentially more up that alley. Had Clinton stuck to his guns and lead as the CINC, he probably would have forced the Pentagon to come up with a far more competent military capable of executing unconventional operations. Instead he was content to just