View Full Version : Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 05:59
I am rather confident that Chrono will lend help in the final episodes at the very least
I'm quite sure they're not giving him this much screen time just to have an affair with Carim (use protection this time, dude!) and to authorize Hayate's AOE spells
I said the same thing about Vice, and lookie here, 5-seconds backstory + out-of-show-injury.
don't worry too much about it.
sure theres only 8 more episodes left, but I think the writers and producers, let alone the director, knows how this season will end.
Triad was stupid to judge the show in only its first episode.
I know theres training again in the next episode, but they may surprise us all.
Suprise us with what?Please,at this point the subplots have to dealt with fast.There's no time for random things like a Beserk Erio happening now!
Key Board
2007-07-30, 06:13
Vice probably has one more potential thing to do:
1) backstory with a certain number (hey, who knows?)
2) connection to Teana's brother (maybe)
3) entrust something to Teana. maybe his old device or an advice, yadda yadda
but yeah, I think he's knocked out until the last episodes
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 06:22
Alto huh...who is she? Is she Vice's sister or just someone who is second in command to take over Vice's job if anything happens to him?
bridge bunny...heh, what does that mean?:heh:
I'm not sure if I can describe it properly, but a bridge bunny is more or less someone who works only in a control room or something similar... Basically not a field operative.
Alto is one of the 3 girls who are RF6's 'operators' as Hayate calls them. She's the tan/brown haired girl.
Apparently she has a thing for Vice, but that's only 'explored' in the manga and Sound Stage.
I am rather confident that Chrono will lend help in the final episodes at the very least
That's rather vague :heh:
I'm quite sure they're not giving him this much screen time just to have an affair with Carim (use protection this time, dude!) and to authorize Hayate's AOE spells
Who knows...
Though if I were to be honest, that development would be enough for me... But if I were to be very very honest, I really want to see Durandal again!
Aaron008R
2007-07-30, 06:24
Unfortunately, I think that's probably close to the truth. Hayate herself has indicated several times now that she hasn't got the accuracy and control that is Nanoha's (and to a lesser extent, Fate's) hallmark. That being the case, she pretty much has to use overpowered attacks where it doesn't matter if she doesn't get a direct hit.
Of course, it may be a different story when Hayate unites with Rein, who can then take over the job of targeting, but I very much doubt that Hayate is going to switch styles dramatically when she enters Unison Mode. The best we could probably hope for is that she can launch massive precision multiple-target attacks like a boosted version of Nanoha.
Hopefully, they'll clear up this matter near the end.:heh: It's also important to the OC thread to know. Of course, count in Nanoha and Fate as well.
I wonder how much Hayate's development as a mage was affected by the fact that she's always had the Wolkenritter with her? I'd expect Signum and Vita in particular to be horrified at the prospect of Hayate actually going hand-to-hand with anyone, so her close-in melee and evasion skills might well have suffered from lack of real-world experience.
Signum and Vita? Nah, I don't think so. That would be too imprudent. Hayate certainly took a lot of time in missions separate from the Wolkenritter during the ten year gap. It's imperative that she at least could survive a melee attack. If not, she won't even qualify for such a high rank. There are mage tests against other mages, right?
Oddly enough, she should be able to mimic the melee spells of her knights + Fate/Nanoha. The question is wheter or not she is trained to use them :heh: Then again, there isn't much subtlety in smacking someone with a giant hammer if they get too close :heh: That, or we get to see Diabolic Emmission again :uhoh:
I'm no longer so sure about that now that Rein1 is gone. Her spell list might have been rewritten with only Ancient Belka spells intact in the beginning.:uhoh:
I rather favour Teana coming ahead in any engagement she's in. Despite lacking in mobility, I'd rate her command skills and general sneakiness ahead of any of the Numbers. Even if the Dr does the long overdue sensor upgrade [I swear, if they fall for the same trick another time :rolleyes:] to negate her stealth and decoy, the homing AP bullet is not something to ignore. She is deficient in melee considering her specialisation- which is where the power hatchets come in :heh: Best chance, phase in the moment she slips and just "remove" her from combat.
Well, she is supposed to be very versatile once she gets to master Cross Mirage.:) She's gunning for being an Enforcer after all.
Subaru, her opposite I can only describe as a walking cliche now. Scary should any of them kick in. Probably the only way for the Numbers to stop her is a massed melee attack, or a really good ranged one. Either is difficult, especially if Teana is around in an anti-missile capacity :heh: Get rid of Teana and it'll be a little bit easier. How much is entirely dependent on the resources committed to taking down a berserk cyborg with some really haxx boosts.
Makes sense. i wouldn't want to be anywhere her 'break everything' punches.:heh:
Signum vs Zest: Amazingly enough, I don't know who will come ahead in this one. Signum has been rare in cartridge use, things die/critically hurt when she does :uhoh:. Zest smacked off Vita [which is no small feat] although the cost to self was considerable. Funny thing for them to cancel themselves out :heh:
Hopefully, a double-Unison mode fight will entail again.:) But I'm not really too confident on the result either.:uhoh:
The really sad thing is that so far she isn't even that good a commander (see all my comments in the Ep17 thread). To be fair, all indications suggest that this has to do with the low level of officer training (one cannot expect much of three-month training that can be passed by 8-9 year olds, even if we assume they had IQs of 200!) in the TASB, but that still doesn't fully exonerate her, since she's a Terran and has easy access to the much wider range of material on the Art of War that's available on Earth (we are such a warmonging people).
I do agree with you in some points. Any failure in the military always entails a certain level of incompetence in the losing side. In this case, the entire force of TSAB in that area has shown such level of imprudence to a certain extent. Quite honestly, the episode 17 arrangements were downright perfect to take advantage of, regardless of prior info or not. And the way they addressed the problem did make me cringe a bit. However, I attribute this usually as just a plot device and lack of insight of the production team about high-end military tactics. We wouldn't be able to get the Arthra without good old Plotonium bombs.:) Nothing's perfect really.:heh: But I guess it must be really quite fun to point out the what-if's, huh?:heh:
I wonder if the same principles that allow Nanoha to execute SLB will also work for a hardened shield. :uhoh:It may explain why the longer she fights, the more difficult it becomes to overcome her defences [unless broken by a cartridge boosted attack :heh:]. Pure speculation, but she's the the devil for real if it's true.
Collection-type defense? I'm not sure...:confused:
So anyway, considering the ep 19 preview, that will make 15 episodes out of 19 devoted to training or talk, and even with that, the antagonists are less developped than A's knights were. I hope they pull themselves together for the ending, or it will be a huge disappointment. I already cringe thinking about how much time Vice took on screen for nothing in the end.
Nah, he'll a have a chance to redeem himself... Maybe for a few seconds.:heh:
Don' take the OP too seriously on the kind of tone they're heading to. It's all dramatics. Since the song leans towards a more 'emo-serious' tone, it's only natural that the frames show the same.
Still, honestly, I have little hopes in Vivio surviving. Fate had her emo moment with Precia's..."journey to Al-Hazard/no thanks emo" in S1, Hayate had "Reinforcemo" in A'a, I'm thinking it's now Nanoha's turn with ViviEMo... :rolleyes:
Agreed there.:heh: It's about time Nanoha got some really uncertain moments from the Nanoha series.
ps.im starting to wonder if The Triad was right about the series was going to suck.Maybe they were right in the sense that the series will fail to end it well.
Nah. Don't be too paranoid. The show ain't over till it's over. We'll be the judge of StrikerS once it finishes.:) I plan to stick till the end.
Bah, I like it much better than the first season already, and it has the potential to top A's
Agreed.
that, and there's too much Nanoha and not enough of Hayate, and Wolkenritter
Also agreed.
Fate was lucky (In that sense), the magic that had killed Alicia gave her her magic potential.
Project F doesn't make super soldiers.
And yet they all turn out to be super soldiers...
Coincidence?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 06:33
And yet they all turn out to be super soldiers...
Coincidence?
Well, we're not even sure what Vivio really is originally, or what she's truely capable of to begin with.
And in terms of combat, Erio isn't very 'super'. (Though in other places....)
And yet they all turn out to be super soldiers...
Coincidence?
Erio isnt one.
ps.As much as i want Erio to go beserk,but sadly, it may not happen.
that, and there's too much Nanoha and not enough of Hayate, and Wolkenritter
She's the titular character, there's still less of her then the new characters, and you're complaining that she's stealing Hayate and the Wolkenritter's screentime..?
FlareKnight
2007-07-30, 06:50
Yeah Erio certainly isn't a super soldier, though here's hoping he can at least hit a reasonable level. Certainly next episode it doesn't seem like Signum will be teaching using Strada's modes in the sky. Seems more like a lesson in close combat with the blades. Though I think the boosters could still have their uses. Go for an overhead slash then kick in the booster to really add some bite to it. Have fun blocking that one :).
I hope Chrono will get some time in the battles. While it could just end with him sitting on the bridge. I'm sure he's still got the ability to fly out there and launch some attacks to help out.
In terms of Hayate I think Rein will be hanging with her. Since she did say her accuracy is limited without her around. While I'm sure another Agito vs Rein thing would be interesting think this time Hayate will be getting the unison. With Carim still having a limiter release it's pointing to Hayate blasting some enemies to hell. I'm pretty confident Signum is capable of handling Zest/Agito unison by herself.
arkhangelsk
2007-07-30, 06:53
If we use that as a guide, then it should take an SS-class attack to similarly drain the current Nanoha's defences after her limiter is released.
Maybe or maybe not. It depends on how Nanoha's coefficient is currently constituted (skill vs talent). Considering that she started out at almost zero, her skill portion must be taking a much larger percentage of the total coefficient now.
We also need to take into account how much Raising Heart boosts Nanoha's basic abilities, though. Before the cartridge system upgrade, Graf Eisen easily smashed Nanoha's Protection; after it, Protection+ stopped Vita cold.
All that alters, in the end is whether the attack is blocked, not that energy is being sapped by attacks. From the Nanoha novel, it is made clear that even a blocked attack means less energy expenditure on the attacker than the blocking defender (though of course much better than actually getting hit), or else attrition attack tactics as exercised by Fate will have had no meaning.
In terms of Hayate I think Rein will be hanging with her. Since she did say her accuracy is limited without her around. While I'm sure another Agito vs Rein thing would be interesting think this time Hayate will be getting the unison. With Carim still having a limiter release it's pointing to Hayate blasting some enemies to hell. I'm pretty confident Signum is capable of handling Zest/Agito unison by herself.
Reasoning? If nothing else, Zest is over-S (assessed before Full Drive) and Signum is just near-S. Sure, power ain't everything, but what other indications are there?
I wonder if the same principles that allow Nanoha to execute SLB will also work for a hardened shield. :uhoh:It may explain why the longer she fights, the more difficult it becomes to overcome her defences [unless broken by a cartridge boosted attack :heh:]. Pure speculation, but she's the the devil for real if it's true.
Actually, something like that is probably possible but would only give her some advantage over an otherwise even opponent. Remember that this is mostly recovering scrap (and mostly her own scrap) for one more go - all the scrap is in fact there because of Nanoha's own inefficiencies in processing magic.
Signum and Vita? Nah, I don't think so. That would be too imprudent. Hayate certainly took a lot of time in missions separate from the Wolkenritter during the ten year gap. It's imperative that she at least could survive a melee attack. If not, she won't even qualify for such a high rank. There are mage tests against other mages, right?
Nobody says that she's totally useless, but I doubt it is her forte. You will notice that her qualification is "General" Double-S instead of Air/Land Combat Double-S. The requirements for combat may have been reduced and substituted by her knowledge of a wide variety of different magics (which she'd certainly excel in, being able to create Rein and all). The easy missions may be taken by herself but I bet the tough ones will have the whole "family" coming out, so Hayate's weak points are somewhat covered.
Well, we're not even sure what Vivio really is originally, or what she's truely capable of to begin with.
Granted, but then, why is Jail so interested in her if she was powerless?
And in terms of combat, Erio isn't very 'super'. (Though in other places....)
Erio isnt one.
ps.As much as i want Erio to go beserk,but sadly, it may not happen.
Erio is a 9 year old kid with powers rivaling -if not surpassing- many adult mages. Yes, he is a super soldier.
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 07:03
Granted, but then, why is Jail so interested in her if she was powerless?
Erio is a 9 year old kid with powers rivaling -if not surpassing- many adult mages. Yes, he is a super soldier.
- Let's wait until we know exactly why she's the Vessel of the Saints.
- Considering the standard for armed forces are supposingly around A alongside the fact that he can't fly yet, Elio seems to be only acceptably average. And he's 10. Was Yuuno a super-support mage?
Besides, we're not sure what the hell happened to him after he was captured and taken away by generic evil scientist #4538.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 07:10
Granted, but then, why is Jail so interested in her if she was powerless?
Yes, she's definately not powerless. But we can't be sure that she was originally completely human like Fate and Erio was.
Cause I find it weird to have whoever he/she/it is to create her from any random girl.
Erio is a 9 year old kid with powers rivaling -if not surpassing- many adult mages. Yes, he is a super soldier.
He's at most pushing slightly pass average (as much as I hate to admit it). Nothing that he has don't so far, in terms of combat, screams 'leet'.
Sure, it might not be something common, but it doesn't mean that it should be considered 'special'. After all, TSAB employs kids before. the real gems comes from kids that could level buildings.
Maybe or maybe not. It depends on how Nanoha's coefficient is currently constituted (skill vs talent). Considering that she started out at almost zero, her skill portion must be taking a much larger percentage of the total coefficient now.Perhaps, but is it necessarily the case that skill adds nothing to the strength of the shield? I would've thought that a more skilled mage would be able to construct a more efficient shield in a short time, whereas a novice would simply compensate for lack of finesse with brute force.
All that alters, in the end is whether the attack is blocked, not that energy is being sapped by attacks. From the Nanoha novel, it is made clear that even a blocked attack means less energy expenditure on the attacker than the blocking defender (though of course much better than actually getting hit), or else attrition attack tactics as exercised by Fate will have had no meaning.Is it stated in the novels that this is the only effect of the cartridge system? I was under the impression that the cartridges themselves added magical energy to the spell being cast, which I would've thought would decrease the burden on the mage's own energy reserves somewhat (although not the bodily stress from channeling the extra power).
Yes, she's definately not powerless. But we can't be sure that she was originally completely human like Fate and Erio was.
Cause I find it weird to have whoever he/she/it is to create her from any random girl.
Vivio still has too much blanks to make solid judgements. :upset:
He's at most pushing slightly pass average (as much as I hate to admit it). Nothing that he has don't so far, in terms of combat, screams 'leet'.
Sure, it might not be something common, but it doesn't mean that it should be considered 'special'. After all, TSAB employs kids before. the real gems comes from kids that could level buildings.
You're letting yourself be clouded by the l33tness that is the main cast. The TSAB does not employ 9 year olds on a regular basis, and it took a lot of pencil pushing to get Nanoha & Co in as quickly as they did. In fact, many of the clerks in the Bureau are weaker then Erio, yet are at least a decade older then him.
arkhangelsk
2007-07-30, 07:22
Unless you are reading a different novel from me, there wasn't a novel for Nanoha A's AFAIK (if there is, I'd have to learn where to order it).
Anyway, if the cartridge is supplementing the energy, it still means energy is being sapped - from the cartridge. Since the supply of cartridges are finite, in the end energy is still being sapped and the defending mage slowly pushed towards the wrong end of the power curves.
I do agree with you in some points. Any failure in the military always entails a certain level of incompetence in the losing side. In this case, the entire force of TSAB in that area has shown such level of imprudence to a certain extent. Quite honestly, the episode 17 arrangements were downright perfect to take advantage of, regardless of prior info or not. And the way they addressed the problem did make me cringe a bit. However, I attribute this usually as just a plot device and lack of insight of the production team about high-end military tactics. We wouldn't be able to get the Arthra without good old Plotonium bombs.:) Nothing's perfect really.:heh: But I guess it must be really quite fun to point out the what-if's, huh?:heh:
I must reject this explanation. There is a very simple trick that authors can use when they can't think of good tactics - increase the numbers of the opposition, so at least it looks inevitable the HQ must fall. Heck, they even did that for the RF6 HQ - lotsa drones. Another method is to make the villains more powerful. I really feel sorry for Cinque, Wendy and Novu - they really got shafted just to show off Subaru's fancy new IS.
Further, the Dr.'s attack in itself is creative enough to suggest that they do have a little tactical imagination, so why not use that for the defense. I'd admit the current setup makes the Dr. look smart, but seeing the show clearly isn't out to make Scarlietti look good, this seems like a moot point.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-07-30, 07:34
Suprise us with what?Please,at this point the subplots have to dealt with fast.There's no time for random things like a Beserk Erio happening now!
well, just don't mind it all really. Its all going to go downhill once RF6 gets back on its feet and finally finds Scaglietti. If you've seen the Music discussion thread, we got a clue that one of the upcoming insert songs "Pray" will be played during a very shocking scene in any of the upcoming episodes...so I wouldn't get my hopes up on giving up on this show...8 episodes left, thats about 2 more months of StrikerS left until the curtains go down.
Just seen the episode, and of course, the main highlight of this episode was the new opening.
-So we finally get an explanation out of Genya on why Subaru and Ginga were Type-0 cyborgs. I didn't really understand much of his conversation, but I'll try my best to interpret it. So basically it was all Quint's idea to have kids. I guess Genya and Quint couldn't have kids through the natural process so Quint decided to get artificial beings as kids and thus Genya's surprised expression when he got home to see kids during his flash back. It was sad to see the Nakajima family grieving over their lost mother.:(
-Nanoha shocked at the sight of the burnt bunny that she gave Vivio...and then crying over at the balcony thinking of Vivio and how she made the promise to make her favorite milk when she got back (forgot the name of the drink). Fate comforted her and I say, that was fanservice for those NxF supporters out there!:D
-OUCH, the aftermath of the battle looked really messed up. Shari crying over the fact that they couldn't do anything to prevent the kidnapping of Vivio. Zafira is out for the rest of the season unless he miraculously makes a miracle recovery in time for the final battle. Vice looks like he got it more worse than Zafira...he's in a separate room from everyone else! Erio's got a broken left arm while we all can now hear Subaru's mechanical arm moving around....kinda freaky...:heh:
-I liked the scene where Caro tugged on Erio's sleeve to leave the scene for only Teana and Subaru...that was cute.:)
-Chrono must like Carim's place or something! But seeing them together like that on the screen makes me think he matches more with Carim than Amy:heh: Speaking of Amy, she has yet to appear on this season!
-Zest, looks like the side effect of his Kaioken attack are taking effect. And Agito seems to care a lot for Zest. Maybe because they both were experiments once, so they have something in common.
-Regius knows Zest! Looks like there seems to be a dark and mysterious background between them...I wouldn't be surprised if Zest was the result of the first Einherjar project to be successful.
-Regius' assistant doesn't like Hayate. She spoke out the facts about Hayate being responsible for the Yami no sho case. I dont like her.:frustrated:
-Acous, finally and where have you been??
The video got cut out and couldn't get to view the preview, but this was an OK episode.
9/10
hints of Erio and Signum training together in the next episode...should be interesting!
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 07:37
You're letting yourself be clouded by the l33tness that is the main cast. The TSAB does not employ 9 year olds on a regular basis, and it took a lot of pencil pushing to get Nanoha & Co in as quickly as they did. In fact, many of the clerks in the Bureau are weaker then Erio, yet are at least a decade older then him.
Hmmm.... Okay, put it this way then.
A super/elite soldier is one that performs exceedingly well in terms of combat, right?
That means if we were to judge Erio, it would base on his combat performance, not the rate he is gaining those skills. And base on past results, it's really nothing impressive.
Fate/Nanoha/Hayate/Chrono/Signum/Vita could be labelled as elites because they have the ability to perform in situations a common mage wouldn't be able to handle, as proven before.
Yes, Erio could be an elite in the future, but he isn't one now.
Mirificus
2007-07-30, 07:42
In fact, many of the clerks in the Bureau are weaker then Erio, yet are at least a decade older then him.
That's a red herring. The TSAB doesn't use its clerks as combatants. Unless they already have magical skills suitable for that kind of work like Uno does, it would be a tremendous waste using talented mages as clerks.
Erio had better be good as all he does day after day is combat training.
Key Board
2007-07-30, 07:46
Scag has the "King of Relics" which he needs to find a the suitable vessel
in this case it's Vivio
as I said before, I think Relics are solidified memories/souls
Aaron008R
2007-07-30, 07:48
I must reject this explanation. There is a very simple trick that authors can use when they can't think of good tactics - increase the numbers of the opposition, so at least it looks inevitable the HQ must fall. Heck, they even did that for the RF6 HQ - lotsa drones. Another method is to make the villains more powerful. I really feel sorry for Cinque, Wendy and Novu - they really got shafted just to show off Subaru's fancy new IS.
Further, the Dr.'s attack in itself is creative enough to suggest that they do have a little tactical imagination, so why not use that for the defense. I'd admit the current setup makes the Dr. look smart, but seeing the show clearly isn't out to make Scarlietti look good, this seems like a moot point.
I guess I didn't phrase it good enough.:heh: Yes, yes. Scaglietti's forces performed superbly and overwhelmingly with the 'Numbers' and numbers.:heh: But the specific point that I was refering to is that 'if' RF6 and the GC performed the way you suggested to be most effective in the episode 17 thread, the results, while very possibly also ending in the fall of RF6 and GC anyway, would entail radically different results. For example, the attack might have yielded less structural and personel damage. Or maybe Vivio might have not been taken. But we all know that the plot won't progress as planned if that happened, right? So the little plot devices and inconsistencies were (painfully) necessary to provide such result given the current power level statistics in both sides.
But then, maybe they could have increased the numbers of the enemy with another 0 in the end.:heh:
Either way, the production goal was to get these results. Only the manner of execution seems to have some issues. That's the way I see it at least. Of course, I assume that you have a different view on matters, ne?
Keroko was right! This IS fun!:D
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-07-30, 07:55
Just a wild thought, but anyone thinks that Chrono and Carim go together more suitably than with Chrono and Amy??
Seriously, seeing them two share a screen and a room just to listen to Genya's story about Subaru and Ginga...made me think that the creators should not have gone and did an off screen, mystery marriage with Chrono and left him stayed a single man.
Aaron008R
2007-07-30, 07:57
Just a wild thought, but anyone thinks that Chrono and Carim go together more suitably than with Chrono and Amy??
Seriously, seeing them two share a screen and a room just to listen to Genya's story about Subaru and Ginga...made me think that the creators should not have gone and did an off screen, mystery marriage with Chrono and left him stayed a single man.
Actually, I'd rather that he stayed single, with more screen time, flirting the Aces Sugita style!:D
But, Amy is fine too...:) I guess.:uhoh:
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 07:58
Just a wild thought, but anyone thinks that Chrono and Carim go together more suitably than with Chrono and Amy??
I'm WORKING on that... Suddenly this episode just gave me alot of indirect pressure from my Associates... :uhoh:
P.S - Yes, I completely agree with you :heh:
P.P.S - Put this in the relationship thread... God knows it needs a jump start... :heh:
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-07-30, 08:05
I'm WORKING on that... Suddenly this episode just gave me alot of indirect pressure from my Associates... :uhoh:
P.S - Yes, I completely agree with you :heh:
P.P.S - Put this in the relationship thread... God knows it needs a jump start... :heh:
OK I'll do that...heh:heh:
on another note about this episode is Zest. I'm really wondering if he keeps doing unison with Agito, he'll end up killing himself before his opponent will eventually die.
He was spitting out blood like if he drank it.:twitch:
BTW, where did Agito get that drink from anyways?
episode 18 is certainly a nice episode. The much awaited 2nd OP is here and it's pretty cool.
Some thoughts on the episode even though it's pretty late :heh:
The forwards certainly didn't look surprised concerning Subaru's background.Even with the mechanical sounds coming from her torn arm. although that certainly gives me the creeps :upset: Wished I understood what the forwards were saying though.
Subaru and Ginga's past had some light shed on it.too much moon speak to understand but looks like now the doctor is even more likely to be involved with them.
Zest and Agito moments were nice. Those two have a interesting relationship and looks it could develop furthur.
Ginga in a glass jar. :(
Lutecia's mother in glass jar 11? that was certainly unexpected. getting precia-alicia related vibes here :eyespin:
The last part of Nanoha crying in Fate's arms because she couldn't keep her promise to her was nicely executed and Vivio screaming for her mama certainly rankled me some what.
Reminded me why I'm so drawn towards the series, aside from the battles and devices, was the character elements and events such as that which keep me watching.
No previe of ep 19 but things are getting dark and heavy soon.
Unless you are reading a different novel from me, there wasn't a novel for Nanoha A's AFAIK (if there is, I'd have to learn where to order it).I haven't read the Nanoha novel yet, so I was just wondering whether it was ever mentioned.
Anyway, if the cartridge is supplementing the energy, it still means energy is being sapped - from the cartridge. Since the supply of cartridges are finite, in the end energy is still being sapped and the defending mage slowly pushed towards the wrong end of the power curves.It's certainly true that Raising Heart can't boost Nanoha as much when the cartridges run out. The question then becomes how many high-powered attacks she can withstand before she's out of ammo; I don't think we have enough data to make a good estimate.
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 08:09
You're letting yourself be clouded by the l33tness that is the main cast. The TSAB does not employ 9 year olds on a regular basis, and it took a lot of pencil pushing to get Nanoha & Co in as quickly as they did. In fact, many of the clerks in the Bureau are weaker then Erio, yet are at least a decade older then him.
I'm not even factoring in the Aces. I'm talking about GRUNTS here.
You expect me to believe Elio is decisively superior than any ONE of these GRUNTS?
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2249/0011gw6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-07-30, 08:10
Vivio had her own "Higurashi" moment. With full eyes wide open and pupils almost dilated. And the screams. I'd say Scaglietti has crossed the line with life experimenting!
on another note, looks like this ain't the first time Vivio has had relic testing on her....she seems to remember something similar to this.
oh yea and I liked the scene where Caro tugged on Erio's sleeve to leave the scene for only Teana and Subaru...that was cute.:)
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 08:14
OK I'll do that...heh:heh:
on another note about this episode is Zest. I'm really wondering if he keeps doing unison with Agito, he'll end up killing himself before his opponent will eventually die.
He was spitting out blood like if he drank it.:twitch:
BTW, where did Agito get that drink from anyways?
Unison doesn't hurt him. Using Full Drive (( the Graf Eisen Breaker attack )) does.
lol dunno, but Zest did ask for it...Maybe they set up a camp somewhere. Acous can teleport cakes from...somewhere, maybe Zest too can teleport cooking utensils and stuff when they need to eat and camp outside.
Aaron008R
2007-07-30, 08:15
I'm not even factoring in the Aces. I'm talking about GRUNTS here.
You expect me to believe Elio is decisively superior than any ONE of these GRUNTS?
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2249/0011gw6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I don't really think that Erio's performance level would be much different from these. Very possibly even not up to par. But one could hope. He's a specialist with a specialized device.:) But then, that's just me.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 08:16
OK I'll do that...heh:heh:
Give me a sec to get there :heh:
on another note about this episode is Zest. I'm really wondering if he keeps doing unison with Agito, he'll end up killing himself before his opponent will eventually die.
He was spitting out blood like if he drank it.:twitch:
BTW, where did Agito get that drink from anyways?
No no, you are mistaken. It's not unisoning that is damaging his body, it's that One-turn-kill move that he did on Vita that is eating him from the inside.
As for that drink... Chalk it under the power of love.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-07-30, 08:16
Unison doesn't hurt him. Using Full Drive (( the Graf Eisen Breaker attack )) does.
lol dunno, but Zest did ask for it...Maybe they set up a camp somewhere. Acous can teleport cakes from...somewhere, maybe Zest too can teleport cooking utensils and stuff when they need to eat and camp outside.
oh yea thats right he used full drive...never mind, but if he keeps that up though, he could end up killing himself though.
And he did mention that he wanted to smash Vita's hammer instead of smashing her to the ground. I'm not too clear on this but it seems like he was gesturing that explanation. I guess he's a pacifist and he's a belka knight also.:heh:
also on another note, Regius knows Zest! Looks like there seems to be a dark and mysterious background between them...I wouldn't be surprised if Zest was the result of the first Einherjar project to be successful.
oh yea thats right he used full drive...never mind, but if he keeps that up though, he could end up killing himself though.
And he did mention that he wanted to smash Vita's hammer instead of smashing her to the ground. I'm not too clear on this but it seems like he was gesturing that explanation. I guess he's a pacifist and he's a belka knight also.:heh:
also on another note, Regius knows Zest! Looks like there seems to be a dark and mysterious background between them...I wouldn't be surprised if Zest was the result of the first Einherjar project to be successful.Darco, Liingo and I were watching the raw in the clubroom, and they can testify that I went:
Zest: I am your son.
Regius: NOOOOOOOOOOO...!!!
After that, they said it would turn the thread upside down. Now to sit and wait. :D
Key Board
2007-07-30, 08:35
Zest is probably a remnant of Regius's backed secret mage enhancement program
on another note
is it me, or have we not seen Mach Calibur's mode-2 yet?
StrikerS seem like a game of card at times. Everyone is busy hiding their trumps and jokers.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-07-30, 08:35
Darco, Liingo and I were watching the raw in the clubroom, and they can testify that I went:
Zest: I am your son.
Regius: NOOOOOOOOOOO...!!!
After that, they said it would turn the thread upside down. Now to sit and wait. :D
thats one possibility. With all of this artificial family members now popping out of no where, it could be Regius wanted a son of some sort?
so Project Einherjar (even we dont even know if Zest could be a result of it) was his calling for having a son.
I really do want to see what happens when Zest finally gets his chance to meet Regius. What will he say? what will he do?
Zest is probably a remnant of Regius's backed secret mage enhancement program
on another note
is it me, or have we not seen Mach Calibur's mode-2 yet?
StrikerS seem like a game of card at times. Everyone is busy hiding their trumps and jokers.
I was thinking about that also. Maybe boosters on her Revolver knuckle for more power and RPMs perhaps?
Key Board
2007-07-30, 08:36
He will say "I am Zest Somvold, the glaive that cleaves evil"
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 08:45
Zest to Lutecia
"Come with me if you want to live."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regius (:uhoh:) : "He'll be back... :uhoh: !"
He will say "I am Zest Somvold, the glaive that cleaves evil""Ware wa Zesto. Zesto Zomboldo, yami ni tsurugi nari!"
[Mode Zwei!]
*breaks Graf Eisen*
"Ware Mode Zwei tatani mono nashi..."
:eyespin:
Ottocycle
2007-07-30, 08:59
Zest's glaive actually said Glänzend freilassung.(from nanohawiki)
Does that really mean Full Drive by the way?
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 09:10
Zest's glaive actually said Glänzend freilassung.(from nanohawiki)
Does that really mean Full Drive by the way?
Not Full Drive, but Shining Release.
Whatever that means. But from Agito's reaction, only Full Drive seems to be the one that's really killing him. Or is he holding back something? :rolleyes:
Key Board
2007-07-30, 09:28
the Japanese subtitle for the scene says "full drive start"
arkhangelsk
2007-07-30, 09:49
Just watched it. I really tried not to think tactically, but I failed. Anyway, for what its worth:
Many people hated Aurus for picking that ten year old incident, but I rather liked it. Really, what other rock did she have to throw at Hayate, a person who probably TSAB more times than Aurus peed? Anyway, her loyalty to Regius is proper for a long-serving aide, and hardly a sign of corruption.
Of course, she could have used the much more effective rock of "What just happened". It'd be a little hypocritical since Regius is also involved, but it'd be effective and Hayate was lucky she hadn't used it. It seems that Subaru's IS is optimized against machinery, though it remains somewhat effective against other targets. Anyway, I really liked the scene when Noveau promised to avenge Cinque. Aw, Subaru, Subaru, Subaru, when all you were thinking was to destroy them, did you think that you are killing people all too similar to yourself?
At least the scene explained why Cinque, after being thrown back by Subaru, didn't just pick herself up and gain distance - serious internal damage. Poor, poor Cinque. Must ... not ... think ... dispersal strategies ... for Vivio ... must pity Nanoha. Anyway, you can see my thoughts. The scenes are very well done and I sympathized with Nanoha, but tactical considerations just kept crawling into my brain. At least she knows she failed. But she still hasn't realized exactly what has gone wrong.
Sure, maybe the whole thing has to do with Regius but what's the point in asking at this unopportune moment seeing the current mess is at least partially your fault?
You were lucky Aurus decided to pick on your 10 year old history instead of your present failure. Loss of HQ + 50% of combat capability (for nothing but a bunch of enemy drones) is enough for a court-martial and you were lucky none of your political enemies noticed this fact. Considering your own negligences I'd have shot you if you weren't a SS mage (thus too valuable to shoot). So I'd shoot whoever passed you at the so-called Command School instead...
Heck, even Regius is getting summoned, and by percentage he lost less!
When you get Asura moving, head to Earth and pick up some Field Manuals ... wait a second ... you can get Asura? Why didn't you do that from the very start, then - just call for it as it was coming due for decommissioning instead of recommissioning it now?
It is old but it is big and mobile. Its teleporters allow for faster movement than crummy, easy to shoot down heloes, and being in space it is much more secure. Plus IIRC Asura has shields! High orbit is good for communications!
Budget problems? Permission problems? You sure don't seem to have them now! In fact, you fought through a bureaucratic maze in what seemed like less than 72 hours ... an impossible speed. Sigh... As usual, they are trying to make Scarlietti the bad guy.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 10:01
At least she knows she failed. But she still hasn't realized exactly what has gone wrong.
Sure, maybe the whole thing has to do with Regius but what's the point in asking at this unopportune moment seeing the current mess is at least partially your fault?
You were lucky Aurus decided to pick on your 10 year old history instead of your present failure. Loss of HQ + 50% of combat capability (for nothing but a bunch of enemy drones) is enough for a court-martial and you were lucky none of your political enemies noticed this fact. Considering your own negligences I'd have shot you if you weren't a SS mage (thus too valuable to shoot). So I'd shoot whoever passed you at the so-called Command School instead...
Heck, even Regius is getting summoned, and by percentage he lost less!
When you get Asura moving, head to Earth and pick up some Field Manuals ... wait a second ... you can get Asura? Why didn't you do that from the very start, then - just call for it as it was coming due for decommissioning instead of recommissioning it now?
It is old but it is big and mobile. Its teleporters allow for faster movement than crummy, easy to shoot down heloes, and being in space it is much more secure. Plus IIRC Asura has shields! High orbit is good for communications!
Budget problems? Permission problems? You sure don't seem to have them now! In fact, you fought through a bureaucratic maze in what seemed like less than 72 hours ... an impossible speed. Sigh...
*Taps temper with finger and starts twirling it around.*
As usual, they are trying to make Scarlietti the bad guy.
A river in Egypt.
arkhangelsk
2007-07-30, 10:04
Oh, Chaos, I'm sure that there will be another except you who would take exception to my review... :D
I end up with circles and figures :heh:
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 10:11
*Taps temper with finger and starts twirling it around.*
Remember what Fate and Nanoha said in Ep.15?
"Well, the 3 of us should be able to figure out something."
"Definitely, it'll be okay."
Such optimism.
Okay and fine, my foot. :rolleyes:
A river in Egypt.
It is surprising? I mean, it's bloody obvious they weren't trying to make Jail like a good brother/daddy figure to Numbers (( even if he may be )) nor were they trying to show how much of a fruity bastard he isN'T (( with his BWAHAHAHAHHA~~~~~ )) It makes him (( the head-honcho )) dislikable, and it works damn well.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 10:14
Oh, Chaos, I'm sure that there will be another except you who would take exception to my review... :D
I'll let go of the twirling since it was meant to be a provoke anyway, and obviously you have a crush on Hayate, but you just don't know how to express yourself. SO you made yourself stand out amongs the rest.
But seriously, how long are you going to continue this denial?
Scarlietti is the villian, that's his role. You don't need a screaming Vivio to tell you that. The fact is, they have already made him the bad guy. There is no blurry lines, no moral questioning actions, no unclear sides.
Ethically speaking, TSAB has done nothing wrong, Scarlietti has done nothing right.
And when I say TSAB, I mean as a whole, NOT one or two individuals or small parties.
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 10:20
Scarlietti is the villian, that's his role. You don't need a screaming Vivio to tell you that. The fact is, they have already made him the bad guy. There is no blurry lines, no moral questioning actions, no unclear sides..
He is the villain. Nobody's denying that. He's portrayed to be immensely dislikable as opposed to his underlings. He's most likely a lying bastard as well, but until we know for sure what the hell is plans are (( we know NOTHING concrete of it thus far, other than his business proposal )), I wouldn't label his goals evil. His methods, attitude, everything else, yes but until the goal is set, it's still jumping the gun.
Precia's methods, attitude, character, everything of it was evil and tragic, but her goal itself, however delusional, wasn't exactly evil. But the difference is that we know her goal and purpose, yet we know nothing of Scaglietti's. What is Relic? What is Vessel of Saints? etc etc etc. Until these 2 main questions are solved, I wouldn't blame him just yet.
I mean, if Relic turns out to be crystallized memories/soul/life-force/existence/whatever... Jail may be just trying to restore life to the dead, or crystallized, or whatever. It's not like they're bombs meant to blow up TSAB and it's not like TSAB knows what they're for. Besides, he's not even the creator of Relics, just that he steals them with his Drones.
I'm not even factoring in the Aces. I'm talking about GRUNTS here.
You expect me to believe Elio is decisively superior than any ONE of these GRUNTS?
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2249/0011gw6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I cant see the pic.
Sigh.....and yet we dont know who is smuggling the relics!!?????????!!!!!!!!!!!:frustrated:
Somehow ive been wondering,what if Vivio's eye color was an indicator and being having a half red eye meant half awakened
Heck, even Regius is getting summoned, and by percentage he lost less!True, but at least Hayate's unit managed to inflict some damage on the enemy in return. And Regius outranks Hayate by quite a bit; you'd expect him to catch more of the immediate (political) fallout from the mess.
Budget problems? Permission problems? You sure don't seem to have them now! In fact, you fought through a bureaucratic maze in what seemed like less than 72 hours ... an impossible speed. Sigh...Hard to say whether it's just laziness on the part of the writers here. On the other hand, it might have just got a lot easier for Hayate to justify the requisition, considering recent events...
As usual, they are trying to make Scarlietti the bad guy.What do you mean, "trying"? The writers have made him the bad guy, at least for now. It's cliched and not very subtle, but that's their prerogative.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 10:24
Remember what Fate and Nanoha said in Ep.15?
"Well, the 3 of us should be able to figure out something."
"Definitely, it'll be okay."
Such optimism.
Okay and fine, my foot. :rolleyes:
Point? I already know that they aren't perfect. But some people expect them to be devoid of mistakes.
It is surprising? I mean, it's bloody obvious they weren't trying to make Jail like a good brother/daddy figure to Numbers (( even if he may be )) nor were they trying to show how much of a fruity bastard he isN'T (( with his BWAHAHAHAHHA~~~~~ )) It makes him (( the head-honcho )) dislikable, and it works damn well.
So basically, against all odds, you intend to find some good? Sure, knock yourselves out.
I remember I had told myself back when I was watchings series like one piece and other shounen series, that I won't judge a character until I've seen the whole story.
However, I realized when I'm reading "Groove Adventures Rave", that there are some people who had cross the line of no return, and that despite their sad history, it should not justify their actions.
Jail had cross that line, in fact, I think he probably crossed it a long time ago.
Dark Wing
2007-07-30, 10:25
Oh, Chaos, I'm sure that there will be another except you who would take exception to my review... :D
OMG :twitch: people are still defending him! :frustrated:
The man has a helpless little girl strapped to a table crying in terror for her mommy as he dose God knows what sick, twisted, sadistic experiments to her. Oh and lets not forget he's grinning while he's doing it too! :frustrated: He's enjoying her suffering! :frustrated:
So from what I have seen you can just take that crappy Jail = misunderstood good guy theory and just drop it right now. That argument became NULL and VOID the moment that scene came up.
He is EVIL to the CORE and I pray to highest of high that he dies a slow, painful, and merciless death!:frustrated:
Key Board
2007-07-30, 10:26
I will say this. After much observing, I don't think Scag is evil per say, but everything points that he IS quite mentally ill
Read: bat freaking loco
Instead of prison time I would advocate a transfer to Arkham Asylum.
Dark Wing
2007-07-30, 10:29
I will say this. After much observing, I don't think Scag is evil per say, but everything points that he IS quite mentally ill
Read: bat freaking loco
Instead of prison time I would advocate a transfer to Arkham Asylum.
What so he can be for good behavior! :frustrated:
He needs to die for the thing he's done because you can't save someone whos totally lost their soul enough said! :frustrated:
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 10:30
He is the villain. Nobody's denying that.
:eyebrow:
He's portrayed to be immensely dislikable as opposed to his underlings. He's most likely a lying bastard as well, but until we know for sure what the hell is plans are (( we know NOTHING concrete of it thus far, other than his business proposal )), I wouldn't label his goals evil. His methods, attitude, everything else, yes but until the goal is set, it's still jumping the gun.
Precia's methods, attitude, character, everything of it was evil and tragic, but her goal itself, however delusional, wasn't exactly evil. But the difference is that we know her goal and purpose, yet we know nothing of Scaglietti's. What is Relic? What is Vessel of Saints? etc etc etc. Until these 2 main questions are solved, I wouldn't blame him just yet.
I mean, if Relic turns out to be crystallized memories/soul/life-force/existence/whatever... Jail may be just trying to restore life to the dead, or crystallized, or whatever. It's not like they're bombs meant to blow up TSAB and it's not like TSAB knows what they're for. Besides, he's not even the creator of Relics, just that he steals them with his Drones.
I don't know, Nightengale... I believe that at some point a line HAS to be drawn.
No matter how great the reward is, there has to be a point where it becomes a price that's too much to pay.
That's really all there is to it.
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 10:34
Point? I already know that they aren't perfect. But some people expect them to be devoid of mistakes.
Still, I expect them to be better prepared. Their absolute confidence on preventing a danger they have absolutely no idea about (( it may had been 10x worse than what Jail unleashed )) made me lol to say the least.
So basically, against all odds, you intend to find some good? Sure, knock yourselves out.
You know what, I'm not defending the things he's doing. I'm quite aware that he's most likely crossed the "whatever reasons you have, no justification" line. The things he's doing disregards ethics and many other things, but being a practical person I am, I'm not judging him on an emotional basis, but the problem is that since there's nothing of substantial practicality to judge him yet, (( aside from the technology thing, which has good and bad )), I'm trying to move away the other side of the story.
He may had crossed the line, but that doesn't stop people from trying to see his side of things. (( Which we know NOTHING of, and thus I wouldn't make any judgment yet. ))
Note that I've never defended any of the evil things he's doing, but rather just dismissing the full-blast of the negativity towards him. Or maybe I'm just like that. It's hard for me to be emotionally touched to the point of immense bias.
Honestly, I'm expecting Vivio to thank him once Vivio awakens to her true self... if the Relic is her true self. :rolleyes:
No matter how great the reward is, there has to be a point where it becomes a price that's too much to pay.I'd also add that it's the attitude with which Jail is going about his business that tells us something about his character, as much as the methods he actually uses.
Might there be a case in which kidnapping a young girl for traumatic experimentation could be justified in the name of the greater good? Perhaps... but it says quite a lot about the doctor that he appears to be enjoying it, as opposed to considering it a distasteful but necessary evil.
It's difficult to believe that someone who adopts such an attitude to one individual human is honestly a concerned humanitarian acting for the welfare of humankind, regardless of what speeches he may make.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 10:41
Still, I expect them to be better prepared. Their absolute confidence on preventing a danger they have absolutely no idea about (( it may had been 10x worse than what Jail unleashed )) made me lol to say the least.
Fair enough.
You know what, I'm not defending the things he's doing. I'm quite aware that he's most likely crossed the "whatever reasons you have, no justification" line. The things he's doing disregards ethics and many other things, but being a practical person I am, I'm not judging him on an emotional basis, but the problem is that since there's nothing of substantial practicality to judge him yet, (( aside from the technology thing, which has good and bad )), I'm trying to move away the other side of the story.
Once again, fair enough... But I must say you had me fooled into thinking otherwise about your stances.
Estavali
2007-07-30, 10:41
Why don't we all put this seemingly endless and possibly fruitless debate about the unknown morals of the excellent Doctor Scaglietti aside for the while, and wait for canon material to answer the question?
Even though he does appear to be less than norminally sane, despite his brilliance(?).
Add-on:
I must add, though, that whoever that offers instruments of war and death to anyone interested (even going to the point of publicly showcasing his goods at the expense of the authorities, and making a broadcasted business offer) comes off as at least a shady character imho.
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 10:42
Am I the only one who sees that Jail is not enjoying the mental torture (( doesn't mean he loathes it, mind you )), but rather just excited that he's several seconds away from achieving his long-awaited goals?
He's talking as if Vivio's voice isn't even registering in his head, but rather all focused on the Relic he's holding, and what it's going to do to Vivio. I don't see that as enjoying the torture, but rather too excited to even give a damn about her screams. In fact, I'd say Quattro's enjoying it WAY more than Jail is, from her mind games with Vivio.
But yeah, I agree the Doctor's a little off there in his head for better or worse. But that's why he has Uno, right? The calm, collected sane secretary who understands him perfectly like no one else, even when he sometimes may spout out gibberish talks of festivals and stuff.
Mirificus
2007-07-30, 10:46
He is the villain. Nobody's denying that. He's portrayed to be immensely dislikable as opposed to his underlings. He's most likely a lying bastard as well, but until we know for sure what the hell is plans are (( we know NOTHING concrete of it thus far, other than his business proposal )), I wouldn't label his goals evil. His methods, attitude, everything else, yes but until the goal is set, it's still jumping the gun.
How can you separate moral judgment of his methods from moral judgment of his goals?
His actions have had very real and negative consequences for people. Just ask Vivio, Vice, Ginga or Subaru. Merely intending to do good, without doing any actual good, is of no value.
Am I the only one who sees that Jail is not enjoying the mental torture (( doesn't mean he loathes it, mind you )), but rather just excited that he's several seconds away from achieving his long-awaited goals?I simply think that's irrelevant.
Whether he's taking pleasure in Vivio's suffering or the upcoming realisation of his goals is his personal issue - everyone enjoys different things. Some people draw satisfaction from other people's pain, and find legal and ethical outlets for their desires; that's not (to me) a moral problem.
To me, the problem is that, while enjoying the moment, he doesn't concern himself at all with Vivio's rights or express any compassion for her whatsoever. That's why I find it difficult to believe that he could honestly have an interest in the welfare of other people, when he has no concern at all for the welfare of Vivio.
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 10:55
How can you separate moral judgment of his methods from moral judgment of his goals?
His actions have had very real and negative effects on people. Just ask Vivio, Vice, Ginga or Subaru. Merely intending to do good without doing any actual good is of no value.
I never once said his goal may be good, right? I merely said a goal that's not evil. Evil as without substance and what he does has no underlying reason to it, other than just him being evil and crazy. For all I care, it may be a goal that's purely personal, and disregards everyone else other than himself, just so long as there's an underlying depth to why he's doing it, other than just "being evil."
And the names you mentioned... it brings to point, does he even consider them "people" or just "tools" to further his goals? He gives his Numbers a fairly decent amount of human-like treatment, but for others? Who knows? Anyway, too early to say anything. What'll happen to Ginga and Vivio in coming episodes will be an answer, but right now...
I simply think that's irrelevant.
Whether he's taking pleasure in Vivio's suffering or the upcoming realisation of his goals is his personal issue - everyone enjoys different things. Some people draw satisfaction from other people's pain, and find legal and ethical outlets for their desires; that's not (to me) a moral problem.
To me, the problem is that, while enjoying the moment, he doesn't concern himself at all with Vivio's rights or express any compassion for her whatsoever. That's why I find it difficult to believe that he could honestly have an interest in the welfare of other people, when he has no concern at all for the welfare of Vivio.
His goals may not even involve the welfare of "other people." Just because he may not necessarily be a downright bastard with an purely black and evil irredeemable goal that is satanic doesn't mean his goals are white either, just with a lot of red blood on it.
ENOUGH GUYS!This debate is getting nowhere at this point of time
why cant you just assume that he is evil like when you first saw the scene when Precia whipped Fate.
ps.something doest make sense,Garyuu sliced Erio's arm,not broke it.How the heck did he break it then?And how could he fight again with that condition?
DmonHiro
2007-07-30, 10:58
One of the numbers hit Eri owith her twin energy swords, I think that's when he broke his awrm
ENOUGH GUYS!This debate is getting nowhere at this point of timeYou're probably right about that. :p
why cant you just assume that he is evil like when you first saw the scene when Precia whipped Fate.Then what would we do for a good flamefest? :D
I'm not prepared to close the book on whether he's evil or not yet myself; I just think that, as a practical matter, the reasons for opposing his cause right now outweigh any reasons I can think of for backing him. I'm open to reassessing that viewpoint as we learn more in the coming episodes.
You guys are on adrenaline aint it, I had to spend hours reading one whole day worth of backlog :heh:
Allright, one-day-late summery...
As most of parts are already covered, I'll focus on where my moonspeakness could come in handy.- Teana takes the prologue, counting up how each of RF6 has been owned one by one, and she wonders what's going to happen to them... and to Subaru in particular.
- New OP. Hooray!
- Episode starts with newscaster's reporting about terrorism that hit GC yesterday.
TSAB still hasn't made any official announce regarding structure damage, number of injutry and detail of attack.
Newscaster also knows that TSAB received a message from likely-culprit, but PR department is still holding up on detail with excuse of it's under debate.
- Scene moves to Regius's office, where he's unsuprisingly filled with rage.
He angrily shouts at his assistant "Why in the hell that happened!", and "Any word from him!?"
Assistant answers that the his hotline has been changed, and the Lab was already empty.
Regius gets even more mad, expressses the question that after all the treatment Regius has given to him/her, why s/he chose to do that.
Then he asks where's Auris, who's currently running around dealing with the mess from yesterday's incident.
[[Alright, so... Regius was it, afterall...]]
- Hayate approaches Auris and asks weather she's got some time she could borrow for some talking.
Auris answers that she's going to have a meeting from now on, and will call to Hayate when it's done.
Btw, it's revealed that Auris is a Lieutenant Commander / Major.
- Teana helping investigation at now wrecked RF6 base, obviously absent-mindly...
Signum catches and tells her that all these who got seriously injured are deemed safe now, and asks her how's Nanoha.
According to Teana, Nanoha looked calm even after receiving report of injuries and Vivio being kidnapped, and went back to her work immediately.
Signum takes over Teana's share of job, insisting her to go visit her friends in hospital.
Teana reports in to Nanoha that Signum has taken over the task and she's going to hospital, which Nanoha replies that Fate is going there too.
Then Teana asks her if she should tell people in hospital what she just heard from Nanoha, which she answers that if that's going to cheer them up, go ahead.
- Nanoha finds the rabbit... her expression is quite self-explanatory.
- Shari's sobbing and appologizing that they couldn't defend the base while Fate was away... Alto regretfully adds that they couldn't stop them taking Vivio away too.
- In Wolken's sickroom, Vita is visiting Shamal in bed...
Apparently Zafira covered Shamal at that moment, that's why Shamal was relatively less-damaged... however, that left Zafira in rather painful state.
Talking about covering someone, Vita also mentions that if it were not for unison, Vita might've been dead by now too.
Marie is looking after Rein and she's going to wake up by tonight, but Zafira and Vice are gonna take rather long to recover up...
There goes male casts, it's the cruelty of MGLN :uhoh:
- Teana visits Forwards' room with some foods and oildrinks, which Subaru takes while making obviously mechanical sounds...
Tia asks Subaru how's her arm, which according to Subaru, neural cable was damaged so it's not responding well, but will be fully recovered in few days.
[[Although mechanical, Subaru's words sounded like it's able to self-repair... wow]]
- Teana appologizes Lightnings that she told Subaru to keep it secret (ala latest Comic) for time being, for obvious reason.
Lightnings leaves them alone for all their goodness, then Teana moves on to comforting Subaru...
Teana tells Subaru she should appologize to Mach-Calibur too, as she's been throughly damaged by her rampage.
Subaru speculates that from the amount of damages done to Ginga, it should be possible to resuscitate her; not to mention that Numbers were there to capture, not to kill, Type-0.
Then Teana cheers her up that RF6 got priority shift and their main focus is now Scaglietti himself rather than Relics, so there'll be chances RF6 can rescue her.
- Hayate finally takes a shot at Auris and tells her she's going to ask her about Regius's pastwork, but Auris prefaces that there're many classified information that she can't say much, which Hayate responds that just listen quietly for her speech.
- At 108th Ground Division's base, Genya is finally revealing his past to everyone.
Chrono insists to start from SKJ incident that Genya has long been responsible for, and Fate also asks about it's relation to Quint, Subaru and Ginga.
According to him, SKJ has it's root in humanoid mechanical weapons, which itself can date back to Old Era... but even after extensive researches, there weren't much achievement done so far.
Merging human with artifical implants are rather popular in medical scene too, but it was only to complement functions that a recipient is lacking, suspectable for rejection reaction and always required constant maintenance.
Things have changed some 25 years ago, when Scaglietti came into play; SKJ managed it's fame by tampering human itself, so that born-to-be-recipients are by nature familier with SKJ implants from begining.
11 years ago, Quint, a ground mage and an investigator of SKJ cases, rescued two experimental models of SKJ while her investigation... As the couple did not have luck in having child, and their appearance was coincidentally similer to Quint, the couple decided to adopt them as their daughters.
Although they had some help from Tech department in maintenance and such, they tried to raise them as a normal human as possible... and so they grew that way.
Some years afterwards, when daughters are about at age of understanding things, Quint died.
As far as Genya was told, she was KIA-ed in some secret mission and no information regarding her death was revealed so far... but he thinks that sometimes, somewhere, she saw something she was not supposed to see.
Genya thought of going to find out the truth even if that costs him his life, but restrained himself for Ginga and Subaru's sake... for he promised his wife to raise them well.
Still, he didn't stop his investigation, hoping that he would get a chance to accuse the one who's responsible some day.
That was exactly why Hayate came to ask Genya's assistance, because she expected that RF6's gonna be dealing with SKJ... "that Little Tanuki", he calls Hayate :heh:- Hayate tells Auris what she's gathered so far;
Regius was once trying to employ SKJ and Artifical Mage technologies to enhance TSAB, that if they could ignore ethic problem, it can mass-produce a stable supply of capable soldiers once when it becomes low-cost enough... although according to Auris, it's quite old story.
Hayate further speculates that Regius still had that project going on somewhere, and for that matter, Scaglietti was the ideal scientist to take the job... for aside from his illegality, he is a genius capable of marking himself on history.
Then, Hayate continues, Regius and Scaglietti made an secret agreement that once Scaglietti's managed to mass-produce SKJs and Artifical Mages, Ground Army coincidentally finds out his hide-out, gaining control of Scaglietti's creations with it's "clean hands"...
That way, it's also easy to get rid of these who snooping around too much, or receive a fine example of his creations...
At this point, Auris cuts up the conversation, calls Hayate's speculation a bullshit, and points out that Hayate has worked only 10 years for TSAB whereas Regius devoted his 40 years for all the goodness of TSAB, and that includes when Hayate was a criminal, sucking other's life for her own sake.
Hayate accepts Auris's blame for her dark past, but still insists that it's her current job to unveil hidden truth.
Auris retorts her that if Hayate wants to investigate the matter, bring search warrant or other official paper and leaves the scene, which Hayate responds that she will in due time.
- In Regius's office, his assistance informs Regius that High Council will be having an urgent inquiry against Regius, and also taking Einherial away from him, apparently.
Regius angrily responds that the emergency situation is still going on, and insists the inquiry to be delayed.
He then shout loud that "I will not play fool on his hand, it has always been me using him!".
Horrified, assistant gives Regius another matter that needs his immediete confirmation... then he shows Zest's photo from previous episode.
For some reason, Regius gets sudden heart-attack and collapses on desk...
- At lake-side, Zest is coughing blood for unknown reason too...
Agito tearly appologizes him for her uselessness in previous fight, and says that if Zest was at his best state and she did better, it should've been cake.
Zest denies her that he was at his best, and both did their best at that time... then he asks her another cup of medicine drink.
As Agito leaves the scene, Uno contacts Zest and asks him how his body is, although it's obviously not good.
Zest tells her to leave him alone, that it's just that he has couple of things to do before he dies, and he'll die alone so that it won't bother Scaglietti.
Uno responds that it's sad for him to say such thing, for even though they're different in being SKJ and Artifical Mage, they're fellow in a sense.
Zest then tells back that he's still different, that unlike Numbers, he's once dead person that is living a short time before going back to grave.
Giving up, Uno changes the subject; she tells him Lutecia has finished her examination and adjustment and will be back to him in short, and tells him to please take care of himself before finishing contact.
- At Scaglietti's lab, Quattro is taking care of Cinque accompanied with Nove, Wendy and Sei.
According to Nove, Cinque got serious damage in her base frame...
Quattro complements that Type-0 Second (a.k.a Subaru)'s IS, "振動破砕" (vaguely translated to Oscillation Destruction or something) is very effective at damaging SKJs internal parts, although it's also effective at anti-personnel or anti-material too; it's literally One-hit-kill against SKJ upon direct hit.
Nove blames herself for letting Cinque take many hits from such a terrible force of destruction, but Sei pats her head to comfort her.
Then topic moves onto Ginga-in-tube, they regards her that she was born in different manner than Numbers even though she's an original of them, and although she definitely incorporates Scaglietti's technology, it's not known who created her.
Nove doesn't give a shit about these things, and swears revenge against Headband for giving Cinque hell, and Orange Hair for delaying Nove so that resulted in Cinque's injury.
- Lutecia looking up at a tube labeled "XI", then Wendy, Deed and Otto comes up to her...
Wait, Wendy introduces themselves to her? Is it that they didn't know each other until now? :twitch:
Wendy confirms Lutecia that the woman in tube is Lutecia's mother, but Lutecia answers that she supposedly is her mother, for she doesn't remember anything about that "mother".
According to Lutecia, Scaglietti said that once they found the appropriate Relic core for her, she'll wake up and only then Lutecia can have her own heart.
(She said "心", so you can interplet it for heart, emotion, feeling, or whatever)
- At TSAB Central, we see the glimpse of Athra that is under maintenance for her final journey...
Apparently it's Rossa that got permission of using Asura, upon Chrono and Hayate's request.
- For possibly the first time in series, Nanoha goes emo...
Okay we had 1st EP13, but in middle of series?
- Scaglietti doing the best of his Madscientist-ness... quite self explanatory :heh:
Scaglietti says that now he's giving the vessel the mark of holy emperor, and she'll be his bestest of best creation ever... Vivio, Last Boss?Nest episode is "Cradle", there's no more info in preview than without languages, so I'll skip.
Edit:
Despite the fact that I tried to focus on less thing, I feel like it's getting longer after each episodes... :heh:
His goals may not even involve the welfare of "other people." Just because he may not necessarily be a downright bastard with an purely black and evil irredeemable goal that is satanic doesn't mean his goals are white either, just with a lot of red blood on it.That's fair enough; I was just commenting on the public statements he's made and the "humanitarian" actions he's taken so far. I think it's entirely likely that all of that is just a PR smokescreen to mask his real goals, which remain unknown. Not knowing them, it's impossible to say anything much about those goals right now.
All I'm saying is that it doesn't seem like there are many reasons for anyone else (barring the supporters he's already got) to expect that his actual goals will be "good" ones, on the evidence so far. That may change later, depending on how the writers want to play it.
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 11:11
You guys are on adrenaline aint it, I had to spend hours reading one whole day worth of backlog :heh:
Allright, one-day-late summery...
As most of parts are already covered, I'll focus on where my moonspeakness could come in handy.- Teana takes the prologue, counting up how each of RF6 has been owned one by one, and she wonders what's going to happen to them... and to Subaru in particular.
- New OP. Hooray!
- Episode starts with newscaster's reporting about terrorism that hit GC yesterday.
TSAB still hasn't made any official announce regarding structure damage, number of injutry and detail of attack.
Newscaster also knows that TSAB received a message from likely-culprit, but PR department is still holding up on detail with excuse of it's under debate.
- Scene moves to Regius's office, where he's unsuprisingly filled with rage.
He angrily shouts at his assistant "Why in the hell that happened!", and "Any word from him!?"
Assistant answers that the his hotline has been changed, and the Lab was already empty.
Regius gets even more mad, expressses the question that after all the treatment Regius has given to him/her, why s/he chose to do that.
Then he asks where's Auris, who's currently running around dealing with the mess from yesterday's incident.
[[Alright, so... Regius was it, afterall...]]
- Hayate approaches Auris and asks weather she's got some time she could borrow for some talking.
Auris answers that she's going to have a meeting from now on, and will call to Hayate when it's done.
Btw, it's revealed that Auris is a Lieutenant Commander / Major.
- Teana helping investigation at now wrecked RF6 base, obviously absent-mindly...
Signum catches and tells her that all these who got seriously injured are deemed safe now, and asks her how's Nanoha.
According to Teana, Nanoha looked calm even after receiving report of injuries and Vivio being kidnapped, and went back to her work immediately.
Signum takes over Teana's share of job, insisting her to go visit her friends in hospital.
Teana reports in to Nanoha that Signum has taken over the task and she's going to hospital, which Nanoha replies that Fate is going there too.
Then Teana asks her if she should tell people in hospital what she just heard from Nanoha, which she answers that if that's going to cheer them up, go ahead.
- Nanoha finds the rabbit... her expression is quite self-explanatory.
- Shari's sobbing and appologizing that they couldn't defend the base while Fate was away... Alto regretfully adds that they couldn't stop them taking Vivio away too.
- In Wolken's sickroom, Vita is visiting Shamal in bed...
Apparently Zafira covered Shamal at that moment, that's why Shamal was relatively less-damaged... however, that left Zafira in rather painful state.
Talking about covering someone, Vita also mentions that if it were not for unison, Vita might've been dead by now too.
Marie is looking after Rein and she's going to wake up by tonight, but Zafira and Vice are gonna take rather long to recover up...
There goes male casts, it's the cruelty of MGLN :uhoh:
- Teana visits Forwards' room with some foods and oildrinks, which Subaru takes while making obviously mechanical sounds...
Tia asks Subaru how's her arm, which according to Subaru, neural cable was damaged so it's not responding well, but will be fully recovered in few days.
[[Although mechanical, Subaru's words sounded like it's able to self-repair... wow]]
- Teana appologizes Lightnings that she told Subaru to keep it secret (ala latest Comic) for time being, for obvious reason.
Lightnings leaves them alone for all their goodness, then Teana moves on to comforting Subaru...
Teana tells Subaru she should appologize to Mach-Calibur too, as she's been throughly damaged by her rampage.
Subaru speculates that from the amount of damages done to Ginga, it should be possible to resuscitate her; not to mention that Numbers were there to capture, not to kill, Type-0.
Then Teana cheers her up that RF6 got priority shift and their main focus is now Scaglietti himself rather than Relics, so there'll be chances RF6 can rescue her.
- Hayate finally takes a shot at Auris and tells her she's going to ask her about Regius's pastwork, but Auris prefaces that there're many classified information that she can't say much, which Hayate responds that just listen quietly for her speech.
- At 108th Ground Division's base, Genya is finally revealing his past to everyone.
Chrono insists to start from SKJ incident that Genya has long been responsible for, and Fate also asks about it's relation to Quint, Subaru and Ginga.
According to him, SKJ has it's root in humanoid mechanical weapons, which itself can date back to Old Era... but even after extensive researches, there weren't much achievement done so far.
Merging human with artifical implants are rather popular in medical scene too, but it was only to complement functions that a recipient is lacking, suspectable for rejection reaction and always required constant maintenance.
Things have changed some 25 years ago, when Scaglietti came into play; SKJ managed it's fame by tampering human itself, so that born-to-be-recipients are by nature familier with SKJ implants from begining.
11 years ago, Quint, a ground mage and an investigator of SKJ cases, rescued two experimental models of SKJ while her investigation... As the couple did not have luck in having child, and their appearance was coincidentally similer to Quint, the couple decided to adopt them as their daughters.
Although they had some help from Tech department in maintenance and such, they tried to raise them as a normal human as possible... and so they grew that way.
Some years afterwards, when daughters are about at age of understanding things, Quint died.
As far as Genya was told, she was KIA-ed in some secret mission and no information regarding her death was revealed so far... but he thinks that sometimes, somewhere, she saw something she was not supposed to see.
Genya thought of going to find out the truth even if that costs him his life, but restrained himself for Ginga and Subaru's sake... for he promised his wife to raise them well.
Still, he didn't stop his investigation, hoping that he would get a chance to accuse the one who's responsible some day.
That was exactly why Hayate came to ask Genya's assistance, because she expected that RF6's gonna be dealing with SKJ... "that Little Tanuki", he calls Hayate :heh:- Hayate tells Auris what she's gathered so far;
Regius was once trying to employ SKJ and Artifical Mage technologies to enhance TSAB, that if they could ignore ethic problem, it can mass-produce a stable supply of capable soldiers once when it becomes low-cost enough... although according to Auris, it's quite old story.
Hayate further speculates that Regius still had that project going on somewhere, and for that matter, Scaglietti was the ideal scientist to take the job... for aside from his illegality, he is a genius capable of marking himself on history.
Then, Regius and Scaglietti made an secret agreement that once Scaglietti's managed to mass-produce SKJs and Artifical Mages, Ground Army coincidentally finds out his hide-out, gaining control of Scaglietti's creations with it's "clean hands"...
That way, it's also easy to get rid of these who snooping around too much, or receive a fine example of his creations...
At this point, Auris cuts up the conversation and pointing out that Hayate has worked only 10 years for TSAB whereas Regius devoted his 40 years for all the goodness of TSAB, and that includes when Hayate was a criminal, sucking other's life for her own sake.
Hayate accepts Auris's blame for her dark past, but still insists that it's her current job to unveil hidden truth.
Auris retorts her that if Hayate wants to investigate the matter, bring search warrant or other official paper and leaves the scene, which Hayate responds that she will in due time.
- In Regius's office, his assistance informs Regius that High Council will be having an urgent inquiry against Regius, and also taking Einherial away from him, apparently.
Regius angrily responds that the emergency situation is still going on, and insists the inquiry to be delayed.
He then shout loud that "I will not play fool on his hand, it has always been me using him!".
Horrified, assistant gives Regius another matter that needs his immediete confirmation... then he shows Zest's photo from previous episode.
For some reason, Regius gets sudden heart-attack and collapses on desk...
- At lake-side, Zest is coughing blood for unknown reason too...
Agito tearly appologizes him for her uselessness in previous fight, and says that if Zest was at his best state and she did better, it should've been cake.
Zest denies her that he was at his best, and both did their best at that time... then he asks her another cup of medicine drink.
As Agito leaves the scene, Uno contacts Zest and asks him how his body is, although it's obviously not good.
Zest tells her to leave him alone, that it's just that he has couple of things to do before he dies, and he'll die alone so that it won't bother Scaglietti.
Uno responds that it's sad for him to say such thing, for even though they're different in being SKJ and Artifical Mage, they're fellow in a sense.
Zest then tells back that he's still different, that unlike Numbers, he's once dead person that is living a short time before going back to grave.
Giving up, Uno changes the subject; she tells him Lutecia has finished her examination and adjustment and will be back to him in short, and tells him to please take care of himself before finishing contact.
- At Scaglietti's lab, Quattro is taking care of Cinque accompanied with Nove, Wendy and Sei.
According to Nove, Cinque got serious damage in her base frame...
Quattro complements that Type-0 Second (a.k.a Subaru)'s IS, "振動破砕" (vaguely translated to Oscillation Destruction or something) is very effective at damaging SKJs internal parts, although it's also effective at anti-personnel or anti-material too; it's literally One-hit-kill against SKJ upon direct hit.
Nove blames herself for letting Cinque take many hits from such a terrible force of destruction, but Sei pats her head to comfort her.
Then topic moves onto Ginga-in-tube, they regards her that she was born in different manner than Numbers even though she's an original of them, and although she definitely incorporates Scaglietti's technology, it's not known who created her.
Nove doesn't give a shit about these things, and swears revenge against Headband for giving Cinque hell, and Orange Hair for delaying Nove so that resulted in Cinque's injury.
- Lutecia looking up at a tube labeled "XI", then Wendy, Deed and Otto comes up to her...
Wait, Wendy introduces themselves to her? Is it that they didn't know each other until now? :twitch:
Wendy confirms Lutecia that the woman in tube is Lutecia's mother, but Lutecia answers that she supposedly is her mother, for she doesn't remember anything about that "mother".
According to Lutecia, Scaglietti said that once they found the appropriate Relic core for her, she'll wake up and only then Lutecia can have her own heart.
(She said "心", so you can interplet it for heart, emotion, feeling, or whatever)
- At TSAB Central, we see the glimpse of Athra that is under maintenance for her final journey...
Apparently it's Rossa that got permission of using Asura, upon Chrono and Hayate's request.
- For possibly the first time in series, Nanoha goes emo...
Okay we had 1st EP13, but in middle of series?
- Scaglietti doing the best of his Madscientist-ness... quite self explanatory :heh:
Scaglietti says that now he's giving the vessel the mark of holy emperor, and she'll be his bestest of best creation ever... Vivio, Last Boss?Nest episode is "Cradle", there's no more info in preview than without languages, so I'll skip.
Argh, so Regius is client after all. Sigh... I was wondering who he referred to in his anger, but I thought it was the Eihenjar laboratory personnel, not Scaglietti himself. So, he intended to use, but got used instead. Typical.
So, we still don't know WHY Quint died, or is it confirmed that she died in the Sentoukijin case?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 11:12
@Thisguy
Regius Regius Regius... Well now, that's one mystery solved. He had an interesting plan too, though anyone could see how many ways it could screw up.
Another mystery being the 'Relic weapons'. Zest (I was right about him being dead) had said it all... So much for the threesome eh Erio...
Now for the prophecy to take place...
P.S - Satisfy now, Adr 00?
Burner of Anime
2007-07-30, 11:13
One of the numbers hit Eri owith her twin energy swords, I think that's when he broke his awrm
Making a man sized crater at the end of ep17 will do that as well :heh:
Oddly enough, Caro was virtually unscath from the ordeal. Fred must have taken the hit again :uhoh:
Seriously, along with Zafira, men have it really bad in this show :uhoh:
DmonHiro
2007-07-30, 11:17
Why do you think Chrono does not fight? :D He KNOWS he'll be hit with some super-secret one-hit-kill beam the moment he sets foot in the battlefield
arkhangelsk
2007-07-30, 11:19
How can you separate moral judgment of his methods from moral judgment of his goals?
His actions have had very real and negative consequences for people. Just ask Vivio, Vice, Ginga or Subaru. Merely intending to do good, without doing any actual good, is of no value.
I'd answer the question slightly differently. In making a moral judgment before his goal even came in, I'd contend that you are separating it far more than we are.
Agree entirely with your second paragraph. However, since we hadn't even heard of exactly what his "intent to do good" or even "intent to do evil" is, don't you think Final Judgment is a bit premature?
ENOUGH GUYS!This debate is getting nowhere at this point of time
why cant you just assume that he is evil like when you first saw the scene when Precia whipped Fate.
ps.something doest make sense,Garyuu sliced Erio's arm,not broke it.How the heck did he break it then?And how could he fight again with that condition?
Personally, I watched Nanoha's the original as well as A's in rapid sequence, one immediately after the other. Because of that, I was inputting faster than I could really reprocess the information, and all the conclusions were prewritten. Nanoha StrikerS I watched once a week or longer. That's one difference.
We were all probably going straight with the assumption all the way until Ep17's ending which gave us a twist. The ending specifically alerted our consciousness to the possibility of a good (or at least not evil) goal in the Doctor's actions.
Given a potential good to come out of the Doctor, the deontologists in this forum concentrated on his current actions, decided ends don't justify means, and decided to continue. It gets to the point where even the "nice" things he does gets solely a negative interpretation - smokescreen and the like. The possibility that he might genuinely have even a few virtues is lost.
The consequentialists, however, now had to consider the possibility of a Scarlietti goal that's good enough to actually more or less justify (relatively) what he's currently doing, and are now forced to withhold judgment.
I think Nanoha is different because it is so much faster-paced. We see Precia hit Fate. With no attempt to raise our consciousness into any potential benefits in Precia's actions, we see pure black. Then all of a sudden her entire goal is revealed - the pros and cons are weighed instantly (and I think maybe 5 out of 10 million people would think Precia was justified). No middle ground.
Estavali
2007-07-30, 11:29
That's fair enough; I was just commenting on the public statements he's made and the "humanitarian" actions he's taken so far. I think it's entirely likely that all of that is just a PR smokescreen to mask his real goals, which remain unknown. Not knowing them, it's impossible to say anything much about those goals right now.
Just a thought on his little speech at the end of #17. I have always considered it as either sarcasm on TSAB, or rather, Regius' "selective righteousness" (especially in view of his possible involvement with Scaglietti), or a threat ("I chose not to hurt any lives" can also be interpreted as "I can also choose otherwise anytime... and who can stop me?". In short, "All your lives are belong to me".)
Add-on: Based on Zest's conversation with Uno, it does seems that he may be involved in the Einherjar project. Probably one of the test-subjects, I believe.
And it seems to me that whether he used his Full Drive attack or not, he doesn't seem to have much life expectancy to begin with...
Oh well, I have to note that we're still yet to get the full, concrete revealation of Regius being the Client.
Although with his reaction, evidences and Hayate's speculation all leads to that one point, it's MGLN we're talking about... :rolleyes:
So, we still don't know WHY Quint died, or is it confirmed that she died in the Sentoukijin case?If we're to believe Genya, he doesn't knows how she died.
Although he got an official explaination of "dead in secret mission, it's classified, you won't know anything", he, and most likely Hayate too, thinks Quint was killed because she learned something she shouldn't.
So... No, we still don't know why she died, for sure.
arkhangelsk
2007-07-30, 11:37
Why do you think Chrono does not fight? :D He KNOWS he'll be hit with some super-secret one-hit-kill beam the moment he sets foot in the battlefield
Oh, come on, he didn't do that badly back in Nanoha and Nanoha A's. He might well be spared. This whole men get really shafted thing only started in StrikerS.
Nightengale
2007-07-30, 11:40
Right... sounds like another unnecessary subplot.
Who knows? Maybe it'll turn out that Jail has Quint's Relic Core or something obtained from her death, and that Quint was killed by TSAB or someithng for seeing Regius's skeletons in his closet? It'd make a decent excuse if Ginga's to defect to Jail's side without the brainwash possibility crap.
Of course, if it comes to that, naturally.
DmonHiro
2007-07-30, 11:40
We'we had 3 men do stuff in the first show. And YES, I belive Chrono is strong and should fight more, but they are most likely saving him for the final battle. Woudn't mind seeing Yuuno in action, cause he DOES look pretty cool when he's serios. ALso, his barriers should be among the strongest
You know, I don't get how anyone can pin anything major on Hayate regarding the YnS case. She can't be held responsible for its incarnations prior to herself, her knights were gathering Linker Cores against her orders. Once she gained control of the Book, she cooperated with the TSAB forces to destroy the defense program. I'd say her hands in that case were cleaner than Fate's in the Jewel Seeds case.
Hayate suspects Regius may be Scaglietti's client, but we know something she doesn't, Zest and Lutecia work for the Client, how do they fit into the plan she outlined?
It's possible Scaglietti is presently serving several Clients with tasks that fit his own agenda. By this point in the series, he simply has to be the final mastermind. There's no space left for someone with a larger agenda above him. At least, not with any decent amount of development.
since we hadn't even heard of exactly what his "intent to do good" or even "intent to do evil" is
You don't get it, do you? No villan ever "intends to do evil", except the truely insane ones like the Joker. Their intentions are always good. Sometimes, their intentions are the same as the heroes who oppose them. So what seperates heroes from villans? Villans never question their decisions, "For that Better World, the Price must be Paid" they tell themselves and everyone else. Heroes DO assess their actions, "Is this Right?", "Is the Price Worth It?", "Can I find Another Way?". The moment people lose their ability to assess the consequences of their actions, they start becoming villans.
Oh, come on, he didn't do that badly back in Nanoha and Nanoha A's. He might well be spared.
Back then, he was merely a lowly Enforcer. A good one to be sure, but not all that valuable a target. Now, he's an Admiral, a much more important target. Personally, I think the TSAB Navy hands out Admiral ranks too easily. They have so many that they serve as ship captains? Admirals are supposed to be fleet commanders!
arkhangelsk
2007-07-30, 11:51
From Aurus' version, my guess is that Hayate actually fibbed a little with Chrono's help to take the maximum possible onto herself to protect her knights. The idea that she'd be able to control her knights so please don't execute them will sound a little hollow given the way they were gathering Linker Cores without even her knowledge. It might be better for all involved if she said she gave the order. She's just being "human" rather than almost unrealistically "saintly" that way. It'd sound a lot more plausible to the judge too.
I don't think they would outright lie. That would get them kicked out of the Bureau if the truth was ever discovered. They more likely steered the subsequent inquiry in the direction they wanted, and away from the things they didn't want. Like how they exonerated Fate after the Jewel Seed incident.
arkhangelsk
2007-07-30, 12:39
Well, they aren't going to lie about anything that's actually verifiable, of course. However, something like whether Hayate gave the order or the knights decided to do it all by themselves is pretty hard to verify with any certainty.
krisslanza
2007-07-30, 14:15
Man I have to say, watching the part with Vivio at the end is kinda hard to watch. Either the Numbers lack certain emotions, they don't care at all, or what but. Man that was awful, I know I could never stand listening to Vivio cry and scream like that...
An Hero in Disguise
2007-07-30, 14:22
Man I have to say, watching the part with Vivio at the end is kinda hard to watch. Either the Numbers lack certain emotions, they don't care at all, or what but. Man that was awful, I know I could never stand listening to Vivio cry and scream like that...
I kinda thought her screaming wasn't out of place at last :rolleyes:
krisslanza
2007-07-30, 14:25
It's not out of place, it's just painful to hear ya know? Makes me feel so bad for her T_T
Which is probably what it's intended to do.
FlareKnight
2007-07-30, 14:30
Somehow I think JimmyC has the right idea here. Put some spoiler on Morality so people can just scim over it :).
Yeah Regius isn't the type to worry about how things could go wrong. He's got that kind've confidence leaving him to believe he's just that damn smart and able to handle the situation.
I'm sure Chrono will make an appearance along the way even if it's just in the final battle. One reason to hang around Carim is to keep reminding people that yes he is still around. Yuuno really should've found a character to latch onto so he wouldn't fade into obscurity.
Nice though that they have gotten clearance to just go after Scag rather than just find relics and hope he tries to steal them. Since right now I doubt he's all that concerned. Probably has the XI relic hidden away so Lutecia will be faithful until the end. Now he's got Vivio and even Ginga so he's probably prepared to move his plans forward.
Vivio crying was definitely meant to send the viewers a message and it did that. Get everyone pretty much polarized into feeling bad for the girl. While at the same time planning the various scenarios that Jail is going to die. My personal favourite is being run through with Zamber form but that's just me.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-07-30, 15:10
Vivio crying was definitely meant to send the viewers a message and it did that. Get everyone pretty much polarized into feeling bad for the girl. While at the same time planning the various scenarios that Jail is going to die. My personal favourite is being run through with Zamber form but that's just me.
Jail is awesome and must live for the sake of OC thread :D I hope he's not going down in some stupid way.
>> She can't be held responsible [snip], her knights were gathering Linker Cores against her orders.
Hayate was their General, and ultimately it is the General's responsibility. Neither not knowing nor not being able to stop them is an excuse. She should know, and she should lead. Otherwise, goodbye to kitchen.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 16:51
Hayate was their General, and ultimately it is the General's responsibility. Neither not knowing nor not being able to stop them is an excuse. She should know, and she should lead. Otherwise, goodbye to kitchen.
In a sense, what they did was considered mutiny against Hayate.
Meaning at that time, Hayate was not longer able to control their actions because they have already decided to do so against her wishes.
In a sense, what they did was considered mutiny against Hayate.
Meaning at that time, Hayate was not longer able to control their actions because they have already decided to do so against her wishes.
But nevertheless, if your crew mutinies, that still means its yur fault as you somehow failed to please and prevent the mutiny. (In this case this does not apply but you get where im getting at)
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 17:59
But nevertheless, if your crew mutinies, that still means its yur fault as you somehow failed to please and prevent the mutiny. (In this case this does not apply but you get where im getting at)
I 'get' what you mean. However, I would also like to add that some mutinies are because of someone trying to seize control of power from the leader. Not because of unfair treatment but rather the greed for power.
And they won't be pleased with any less.
Meophist
2007-07-30, 18:39
But nevertheless, if your crew mutinies, that still means its yur fault as you somehow failed to please and prevent the mutiny. (In this case this does not apply but you get where im getting at)…None of it applies because she was just a little girl, not a military officer at the time. Under Earth laws, she is not responsible for anything the Wolkenritter does, except in the arguable case of her ordering them to do something but that doesn't apply here.
serenade_beta
2007-07-30, 18:43
I wonder if Jail has a large dining table for 13+ in his lab?
No matter how mad he is, he still needs to eat, right?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 18:58
I wonder if Jail has a large dining table for 13+ in his lab?
No matter how mad he is, he still needs to eat, right?
... That could...
Have a very high potential for something entertaining.... :D
(I don't know, maybe they all run on a 10v Energizer battery...)
arkhangelsk
2007-07-30, 19:08
You don't get it, do you? No villan ever "intends to do evil", except the truely insane ones like the Joker. Their intentions are always good. Sometimes, their intentions are the same as the heroes who oppose them. So what seperates heroes from villans? Villans never question their decisions, "For that Better World, the Price must be Paid" they tell themselves and everyone else. Heroes DO assess their actions, "Is this Right?", "Is the Price Worth It?", "Can I find Another Way?". The moment people lose their ability to assess the consequences of their actions, they start becoming villans.
Must agree with this spoiler-hiding tactic, but must disagree with your definition. Are you telling me Scarlietti might suddenly become a good guy if they slot in some scenes where he angsts in the privacy of his room, or maybe he finished all that angsting 25 years ago and is now firmly committed to execution. Somehow I don't think that would work.
IMO, heroes and villains are primarily Exterior frames of reference. People outside evaluate goal vs method and decide. Deontologists heavily consider methods, putting each method employed against a personal rulebook of morality regardless of potential good (deontologists think it is wrong to lie even if you can save your friend by doing so), but consequentialists must actually have three things - goal, ability and method. Ability is important, by the way. Obviously, causing people to sacrifice for a good cause you can't achieve is to be rated differently from if you have a serious shot at achieving it.
Back then, he was merely a lowly Enforcer. A good one to be sure, but not all that valuable a target. Now, he's an Admiral, a much more important target. Personally, I think the TSAB Navy hands out Admiral ranks too easily. They have so many that they serve as ship captains? Admirals are supposed to be fleet commanders!
Entirely agree with you on this, but I was answering a post where we were poking at StrikerS apparent eagerness to shaft all the men.
It hasn't been mentioned yet, but did anyone else notice Subaru's eyes turned heterochromic in the OP - the Numbers' yellow, and her own green.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Naraal/Subaru_Dichrome.jpg
...And I think that it's a pretty good look for her. :)
Meophist
2007-07-30, 20:47
I wonder if heterochromia is a theme in StrikerS or something?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 20:50
I wonder if heterochromia is a theme in StrikerS or something?
It increases the number of Hair-Eyes colour combinations they can give a character.
Meophist
2007-07-30, 21:06
It increases the number of Hair-Eyes colour combinations they can give a character.Well, that's true. Soon, I guess, we'll have multi-coloured hair.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 21:10
Well, that's true. Soon, I guess, we'll have multi-coloured hair.
We already have complete hair colour change though :heh:
It hasn't been mentioned yet, but did anyone else notice Subaru's eyes turned heterochromic in the OP - the Numbers' yellow, and her own green.
What about Vivio? Maybe her red eye refers to "Project Fate", while her green eye refers to the research which created Subaru and Ginga?
Key Board
2007-07-30, 23:44
Regarding villains, it's all about image.
Scag and his gang are in a word, cold.
Scag has a twisted glint in his eyes. His face contorts. He laughs like mad and he revels in his mayhem.
Most of his numbers consist of a dead pan gang of cyborgs. Very mechanical in comparison, pun intended. The most flamboyant ones haven't been that nice. Quattro, is sneering and arrogant. Nove has just slightly more personality than a Transformers movie Decepticon.
The Cloud knights on the other hand, operate on the code of belka knights: introduction, honor, duty and people like that. Furthermore, they are otherwise nice and friendly people on their off days who help and interact with the community.
You won't see a number hugging a mechanical plush bunny and asking for a warm cup of oil, for comparison. Their idea of a free time is sleeping in a recovery capsule, devising counter mage maneuvers, or simply strolling around waiting for the next mission. Very utilitarian.
The cloud knights have a personal struggle. They are acting against their master's orders, racing against a narrow time frame to a save their master. An act that may or may not work. Fate had a personal struggle. You could see the sense of urgency in her actions. Their desperation is well portrayed within the story. Tears were literally shed over this in the story.
What personal struggle do Scag and the numbers have? Scag seems to operate under a relaxed timetable and everything thrown at him so far is met with a "oh really? Well that's just going as planned" response. I've never seen Vita say anything along the lines of "why haven't you dealt with that thrash, yet?" I have for the numbers. If anything his group comes of as overconfident.
I actually feel more personal struggle from Lutecia, Zest and Agito, who are the real staple villains of StrikerS, IMO
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-30, 23:51
What about Vivio? Maybe her red eye refers to "Project Fate", while her green eye refers to the research which created Subaru and Ginga?
That said, shouldn't Erio's eyes be red then?
That said, shouldn't Erio's eyes be red then?
Maybe he hasnt been awakened yet?Btw who is the guy who took Erio away from his parents?
DmonHiro
2007-07-31, 00:04
It hasn't been mentioned yet, but did anyone else notice Subaru's eyes turned heterochromic in the OP - the Numbers' yellow, and her own green.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Naraal/Subaru_Dichrome.jpg
...And I think that it's a pretty good look for her. :)
Just watched the HQ raw. Her eyes are both green
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4087/snapshot20070731075900wa9.jpg
We already have complete hair colour change though :heh:
and Yeah,its kinda strange how Caro and Erio have natural born Red and Pink hair.God Knows what hair woudl their child be.:eyespin::eyespin::eyespin::eyespin::eyespin:
Burner of Anime
2007-07-31, 00:18
IMO, DR. J has the odour of someone who is so clinically removed from humanity in the pursuit of science that he's surrounded himself with machines and a legion of Stepford Wives :uhoh:. In this way, I'd prefer to call him dangerously amoral with greed, arrogance and megalomania thrown into the mix.
Make no mistake, this is not a "Nice" person with the redeemable traits of sacrifice or misplaced love seen by the S1 and S2 antagonists. Of course, should the writers can cop out and turn him into some sort of holy martyr at the end is entirely up to them. For that, I'd rather wait till the end and just appreciate the creepy bast@rd for holding his own against a crew of demonic cannon girls :heh:.
Likely the only thing preventing one of his "babies" from smacking him in is their unity as a closed sisterhood and the fact that his drones are literally brainless as to actual control. The Numbers get all the emotional support required from one another, regardless of the abuse or what he ask them to do. They are too busy propping each other up to actually deal with him. His XO's from number 1 to 3 I'd say tolerate and support him by virtue of being on top of the heap. :eyespin:
Should he ever get done in at the end, it's going to be from an outsider introduced to the system. At the moment, he has about 3 sitting in his base. Ginga who is now a tubegirl, Vivio on the trauma table and the wildcard Lutecia in the event the Dr. can't deliver as promised.
My bet? Vivio after whatever is done to her goes wild and thrashes the base. Ginga is unlikely to recover too soon and Lute at the moment is holding that he's telling the truth.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 00:25
Maybe he hasnt been awakened yet?Btw who is the guy who took Erio away from his parents?
Alicia's eyes' were originally red. Hence Fate's are too.
It has nothing to do with the project.
And yet the client still is not known.Somehow it cant be Regius?It could be the starter of the Enhenjar Project that is the client.But i think Quint was killed because she saw the blueprints or the creation of the Prototypes of the Enhenjar Project.
ps.just who is the Doc who took Erio away from his parents?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 00:31
And yet the client still is not known.Somehow it cant be Regius?It could be the starter of the Enhenjar Project that is the client.But i think Quint was killed because she saw the blueprints or the creation of the Prototypes of the Enhenjar Project.
ps.just who is the Doc who took Erio away from his parents?
It was strongly implied that Regius and his Army backers are the client of Jail.
It was strongly implied that Regius and his Army backers are the client of Jail.
when was that said?
Aaron008R
2007-07-31, 00:37
In Thisguy's translation.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1068494&postcount=321
It is heavily implied. Though not really confirmed as of yet. But then, why add more? The production team did say that there would be no more new characters, right?
It was strongly implied that Regius and his Army backers are the client of Jail.
In that Case we may have a problem as to whether Regius will be the final boss instead.
ps.we still dont know who is smugglign the relics
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 00:43
In Thisguy's translation.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1068494&postcount=321
It is heavily implied. Though not really confirmed as of yet. But then, why add more? The production team did say that there would be no more new characters, right?
He's pretty much holding the smoking gun, just not saying the magic words yet.
In that Case we may have a problem as to whether Regius will be the final boss instead.
ps.we still dont know who is smugglign the relics
There's not a doubt in my mind that he won't be the last boss.
That much you're right, we don't know who they are.
I haven't quite figured out how to respond to your last post on this matter, arkhangelsk. But what I was trying to say was Intention cannot be used to rate a person as "good" or "evil" because both good and evil people can turn out to have the same intention.
For example, 2 persons want world peace. One works on getting governments to cooperate and settle their differences without confrontation. The other works on conquering every country and squashing all dissent. So tell me, so you consider "want world peace" to be good or evil intent?
On to ep15 itself. If the "him" Regius was ranting about was Jail, he's really conned the general. Reguis' assistant mentioned that the "lab" was empty, yet we can see that Jail's still using the very same facilities he's been using throughout the season.
It looks like it hasn't sunk in yet that Scaglietti doesn't appear to be directly involved in Project F. He pioneered its' predecessor, modifying humans (natural-born or otherwise) for the purpose of becoming the base of combat cyborgs. From that, it's not that big a leap to creating artificial humans for other purposes.
You know, we only have Quint's word that the resemblance between kids and herself is a coincidence. For all we know, they really were her children and that's why she busted that lab. But if Genya hadn't thought of doing a DNA comparison a decade ago, it's probably too late now.
According to Genya, Quint captured an out-of-control prototype when she took down that lab. I wonder if it's still in TSAB custody?
I have to say, the creators have some really great ideas. If only they had planned things better so they could have gotten this info out sooner!
Key Board
2007-07-31, 01:02
He's pretty much holding the smoking gun, just not saying the magic words yet.
There's not a doubt in my mind that he won't be the last boss.
That much you're right, we don't know who they are.
We also don't know who made Vivio and why she felt the need to drag along relic boxes with her
An Hero in Disguise
2007-07-31, 01:12
I haven't quite figured out how to respond to your last post on this matter, arkhangelsk. But what I was trying to say was Intention cannot be used to rate a person as "good" or "evil" because both good and evil people can turn out to have the same intention.
For example, 2 persons want world peace. One works on getting governments to cooperate and settle their differences without confrontation. The other works on conquering every country and squashing all dissent. So tell me, so you consider "want world peace" to be good or evil intent?
"World peace" is an evil goal - only constant struggle for survival and supremacy can be the best fuel for the evolution :rolleyes:
Aaron008R
2007-07-31, 01:19
That's quite a way to put it.:D
Myself, I just view World Peace as some sort of Fairy Tale material.:heh:
Too improbable to even consider these times. You want world peace? Then you'd have to go through Armageddon first. But I guess I'm digressing from the main point of the discussion, huh?:heh:
Key Board
2007-07-31, 01:25
have you been playing SRW Original Generations lately?
because that's exactly what Shadow Mirror Kyousuke/ Beowulf would say
Aaron008R
2007-07-31, 01:32
I'd like to.:D Still looking for a copy though.:heh:
I'm itching to use that repainted Alt.:eyespin:
serenade_beta
2007-07-31, 01:55
The Numbers get all the emotional support required from one another, regardless of the abuse or what he ask them to do.
He's abused them? Haven't seen that.
Nightengale
2007-07-31, 02:01
IMO, DR. J has the odour of someone who is so clinically removed from humanity in the pursuit of science that he's surrounded himself with machines and a legion of Stepford Wives :uhoh:. In this way, I'd prefer to call him dangerously amoral with greed, arrogance and megalomania thrown into the mix.
Make no mistake, this is not a "Nice" person with the redeemable traits of sacrifice or misplaced love seen by the S1 and S2 antagonists. Of course, should the writers can cop out and turn him into some sort of holy martyr at the end is entirely up to them. For that, I'd rather wait till the end and just appreciate the creepy bast@rd for holding his own against a crew of demonic cannon girls :heh:.
Likely the only thing preventing one of his "babies" from smacking him in is their unity as a closed sisterhood and the fact that his drones are literally brainless as to actual control. The Numbers get all the emotional support required from one another, regardless of the abuse or what he ask them to do. They are too busy propping each other up to actually deal with him. His XO's from number 1 to 3 I'd say tolerate and support him by virtue of being on top of the heap. :eyespin:
Should he ever get done in at the end, it's going to be from an outsider introduced to the system. At the moment, he has about 3 sitting in his base. Ginga who is now a tubegirl, Vivio on the trauma table and the wildcard Lutecia in the event the Dr. can't deliver as promised.
My bet? Vivio after whatever is done to her goes wild and thrashes the base. Ginga is unlikely to recover too soon and Lute at the moment is holding that he's telling the truth.
I won't say anything on 'redeemable' traits, since all of what he has redeemable at this point has a 90% chance of being a bastard instead of actual good points be it his sweet-talks to... people, (( Uno does the same, saying Vivio's a poor little child when Lutecia kidnapped her, and this episode had her smirking evilly with Jail. )), or stuff. He may sound half-better than some other evil scientist out there, but that's not a praise.
But from the profiles, I technically lives for Jail's sake and III has deep trust in Jail, and I honestly don't think it's simply a case of brain-tampering or shit like that, since it's said that I at least had been through ups and downs with him. (( whatever that means ))
And I sincerely don't believe Jail will get divine retribution from what he does. Mama-retribution perhaps, but I'll lololol if Vivio turns out to be a crazy rampaging monster. In fact, I'm STILL holding out to Vivio hopefully still remembering everything her mamas did to her, and STILL give them the finger. :3
You know, we only have Quint's word that the resemblance between kids and herself is a coincidence. For all we know, they really were her children and that's why she busted that lab. But if Genya hadn't thought of doing a DNA comparison a decade ago, it's probably too late now.
I suppose that when she found Ginga and Subaru, she was in the TSAB for a while. So, if she had been pregnant at one point, that would be in TSAB's records.
Burner of Anime
2007-07-31, 02:40
He's abused them? Haven't seen that.
I take that back then on tha account of no evidence. Looking at Vivio reaction to the relic implantation process, I'd assume it was a painful to the the other Numbers as well :heh:
Looking at Vivio reaction to the relic implantation process, I'd assume it was a painful to the the other Numbers as well :heh:
We don't really know whether it was painful: she was already crying and screaming before the operation even started.
Besides, do we have evidence that relics were implanted in the Numbers?
(At least, the relics' numbers don't have anything to do with the Numbers: they retrieved (or failed to retrieve) Relic number VI in episode 12, and VI-chan was already born and active, since she saved Lutecia.)
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 02:52
I suppose that when she found Ginga and Subaru, she was in the TSAB for a while. So, if she had been pregnant at one point, that would be in TSAB's records.
There is one more possibility (Disclaimer: I'm not supporting it, I'm just stating it).
It could be that she had them long before she was married to Genya... Long before she joined the TSAB (ASSUMING she met Genya then). But she was seperated from them due to any number of reasons.
There is one more possibility (Disclaimer: I'm not supporting it, I'm just stating it).
It could be that she had them long before she was married to Genya... Long before she joined the TSAB
Not very long, at least. Since it happened 11 years ago, Subaru was 3 or 4.
According to Genya, Quint captured an out-of-control prototype when she took down that lab. I wonder if it's still in TSAB custody?
I have to say, the creators have some really great ideas. If only they had planned things better so they could have gotten this info out sooner!
Hope that prototype ant Zest.
Great Ideas,poor planning,ouch.
Gotta hate that.
I had thought of the possiblity that however created Ginga and Subaru had harvested genetic material from Quint at some point. But if that were the case, she'd probably know who ran the lab by the time she raided it. By extension, Scaglietti would also have that information thanks to his insder access to TSAB intel. It doesn't appear that that happened.
Aaron008R
2007-07-31, 04:25
That could be an explanation.:)
Honestly, asking us to just take it as a coincidence.:heh:
Anyway, I've been meaning to ask. Does Zest's device has a cartridge system?
That could be an explanation.:)
Honestly, asking us to just take it as a coincidence.:heh:
Anyway, I've been meaning to ask. Does Zest's device has a cartridge system?
from its design,maybe.
ps. im really kinda wondering,if such cartringe systems were rare,how did they get them?
ps.what did the doc that kidnapped young Erio say?
Aaron008R
2007-07-31, 04:30
from its design,maybe.
ps. im really kinda wondering,if such cartringe systems were rare,how did they get them?
Not really rare. TSAB had parts even before the Wolkenritter attacked. The system was just rather uncommon in use during those times.
ps.what did the doc that kidnapped young Erio say?
I don't know. haven't watched the RAW yet.
Not really rare. TSAB had parts even before the Wolkenritter attacked. The system was just rather uncommon in use during those times.
Hmm several years should be enough for a change in that fact.
Aaron008R
2007-07-31, 04:35
True. But we can't really tell. Quint was already using the twin Revolver Knuckles which use Cartridge systems years before the first series. But then, there are Neo-Belka training nowadays. Which leads me to realize that we haven't even seen a single Neo-Belka TSAB grunt unit.:heh:
I wonder if Erio would ever get to kick ass in the series.
Aaron008R
2007-07-31, 05:00
Doesn't he?:confused:
Or maybe you mean just by himself.
Well, I have high expectations.:) He'll be tutored by Signum, after all.:D
Ottocycle
2007-07-31, 05:13
That could be an explanation.:)
Honestly, asking us to just take it as a coincidence.:heh:
Anyway, I've been meaning to ask. Does Zest's device has a cartridge system?
From what little we've seen of it, I think not. If the full drive had that much power, especially at the cost of the user's health, it definitely could use some cartridges to lessen the effect on Zest. IMO the most similar device(based on how it was presented) we know of would be the Schwertkreuz, especially that glint off it when it activated.
Except of course, Zest's device can talk.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 05:27
Which leads me to realize that we haven't even seen a single Neo-Belka TSAB grunt unit.:heh:
I believe most, if not all of them goes to the Saint Church :heh: It doesn't take a genius to guess that they would know more about Velka magic, neo or not, than standard TSAB instructors.
Subaru doesn't want to go there probably because she knows she'll have a better chance seeing Nanoha again here... AND her family is in TSAB as well.
Erio might have wanted, but Fate probably Persuaded him.
Which leads me to realize that we haven't even seen a single Neo-Belka TSAB grunt unit.:heh:
We haven't seen many Mid-type TSAB grunt units either, have we?
Subaru doesn't want to go there probably because she knows she'll have a better chance seeing Nanoha again here... AND her family is in TSAB as well.
...family who use Belka devices (except for Genya, who seems magicless.)
Nightengale
2007-07-31, 05:58
We haven't seen many Mid-type TSAB grunt units either, have we?
Episode 2. Well, it was a flashback, but it's something.
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2249/0011gw6.jpg
No less than 20 A-ish ranked Flight Mages, all of which, grunts, and are better or least on par with our little rookie Forwards. Mid-types too.
FlareKnight
2007-07-31, 06:29
At least Erio is going to have some more chances to kick ass on his own at some point. He's had a few good moments. Though it comes down mostly to 'Thunder Rage' and thanks to some boosts taking down the big drone. I'm just hoping the training gets animated and not just saying Erio and Signum are going to fight....let's see how the repairs on Eisen are going :heh:
Wow that picture of flight mages just keeps popping up every few pages eh?
No less than 20 A-ish ranked Flight Mages, all of which, grunts, and are better or least on par with our little rookie Forwards. Mid-types too.
As stated in the manga (and in A's), Belka-type mages specialise in close-combat. Which is not good when your opponent is a big fire, since you can't get close.
I'm not sure how "Belka-type" relates to "cartridge system". Tiana is Mid-type (cf manga), but uses cartridges. Nanoha and Fate have Mid-type devices with a cartridge system attached.
http://f.edulang.com/vrac/Image1.png
http://f.edulang.com/vrac/Image2.png
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-07-31, 06:39
As for Lutecia's mom, I'm wondering how relic #11 should be able to bring her back.
We haven't seen the power of what relics can do and what are the chances that the Doctor already has Relic#11 and is just hiding it from Lutecia so she could keep doing errands for the Doctor.
I mean it was mentioned that he already has about 50+ relics in his possession and he's going to test all of them on Vivio. I'm sure by the time Nanoha and RF6 find her, she'll be a relic weapon herself.
Deathkillz
2007-07-31, 06:40
At least Erio is going to have some more chances to kick ass on his own at some point. He's had a few good moments. Though it comes down mostly to 'Thunder Rage' and thanks to some boosts taking down the big drone. I'm just hoping the training gets animated and not just saying Erio and Signum are going to fight....let's see how the repairs on Eisen are going :heh:
Wow that picture of flight mages just keeps popping up every few pages eh?
animated...im not so sure ~ im still annoyed that we didnt get to see the epix fight between the forwards and the aces back in ep 15 ~ and we all know that the writers hate the kid :heh:
in any case those A ranked grunts are weak...when you see them wetting themselves over seeing some drones then you have a big problem on your hands :unoh:
At least Erio is going to have some more chances to kick ass on his own at some point. He's had a few good moments. Though it comes down mostly to 'Thunder Rage' and thanks to some boosts taking down the big drone. I'm just hoping the training gets animated and not just saying Erio and Signum are going to fight....let's see how the repairs on Eisen are going :heh:
Wow that picture of flight mages just keeps popping up every few pages eh?
hmm amde me wonder if choosing Erio as a forward was a bad judgement.
hmm amde me wonder if choosing Erio as a forward was a bad judgement.
Kyaro's two pets, Erio and Freid, are only there to make her shine.
in any case those A ranked grunts are weak...when you see them wetting themselves over seeing some drones then you have a big problem on your hands :unoh:
I don't think they're the same: the ones from episode 2 are Air Force, the ones from episode 16 are Ground Force.
Besides, the drones have their AMF, and the grunts, being under Regius' orders, have not been trained to handle that. Thus, their magic is pretty much useless.
Nightengale
2007-07-31, 06:53
True, but likewise, since there is relatively a solid amount of FLIGHT Mid-mages which are approximately A, there should be a relatively decent amount of Neo-Belka for such as well. Much less, but there should be a decent number of better above B-rankers.
Anyway, the point was that even when compared to above-average (( non-GF )) grunts, the Forwards aren't exactly exceptional. It's just that they've been through specialized training as a team to improve combat efficiency and effectiveness and also anti-AMF drones trainings. They were clearly chosen for their potential, youth and talent for a bright future, but not as "the one-man-stand taskforce that is RF6's TRUE purpose."
And those grunts wetting their pants were Ground Force grunts who were wearing simply regular TSAB uniform no less. I expect them to be the weakest link of the forces, while Tre and Sette went on to own those who can fly and are more powerful. Different from grunts from other divisions, which were said to be much more exceptional, even if less in numbers.
I mean it was mentioned that he already has about 50+ relics in his possession and he's going to test all of them on Vivio. I'm sure by the time Nanoha and RF6 find her, she'll be a relic weapon herself.
Actually, he intends to use ONE Relic...presumably the best Relic which relates to the Saint/Holy Emperor, which only Vivio, the Vessel of Saints can carry.
arkhangelsk
2007-07-31, 06:55
Yeah. The grunts on the ground are probably a mix of Ds and Cs with some Bs. A and you are a NCO. Subaru and Teana were among top in their old unit, and they were Cs (though they were about to take the B test).
Busou Kyokuin as of Nanoha A's was apparently As and Bs, but now they say you need A to really fly in combat, so I'm guessing the Air unit is a mix of As and high Bs.
At the very least, those wimps could have tried to engage before running. Even Star Trek redshirts engaged the Borg with their nearly useless phaser rifles before retreating.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-07-31, 07:00
Actually, he intends to use ONE Relic...presumably the best Relic which relates to the Saint/Holy Emperor, which only Vivio, the Vessel of Saints can carry.
only one relic huh?
and for a plot twist, the ONE relic that will give him these results is Relic #11...heh that surely will make Lutecia a not so happy client.:heh:
As for the prophecy made in episode 13, there seems to be no signs of that happening yet. I had the idea that the GC tower was going to collapse thanks to Deici's "Heavy barrel" attack, but that didn't happen.
Maybe once Vivio turns into the Saint/Holy Emperor, then I can guess that the Prophecy will start making its effect.
Ottocycle
2007-07-31, 07:01
while Tre and Sette went on to own those who can fly and are more powerful.
The profiles of the image thread kind of support this. While I had translated Tre has the 'best' aerial combat ability of the lot, Sette, by the way has 'good' for her grade in that area. Only 2 others have Aerial Combat enabled, Deed and Otto, and their classifications are both just 'possible'. Wendi's is 'limited' to using her Nirvash board LOL.
Says something about the aerial TSAB mages(and also Fate) if the top 2 'Aerial Combat' Numbers can hold their own against them.
arkhangelsk
2007-07-31, 07:02
Anyway, the point was that even when compared to above-average (( non-GF )) grunts, the Forwards aren't exactly exceptional. It's just that they've been through specialized training as a team to improve combat efficiency and effectiveness and also anti-AMF drones trainings. They were clearly chosen for their potential, youth and talent for a bright future, but not as "the one-man-stand taskforce that is RF6's TRUE purpose."
Personally, I think they were chosen mostly because they were among the best B-units available. Sure, a A-unit will be more versatile, but with that ridiculous limiter thing running, they would be forced to reduce the ranks of the commanders even further, and that will cut into the combat efficiency. The four are really there to bulk up the numbers, so the point is to get as much combat and specialty capability as possible within the B rank.
Nightengale
2007-07-31, 07:06
The profiles of the image thread kind of support this. While I had translated Tre has the 'best' aerial combat ability of the lot, Sette, by the way has 'good' for her grade in that area. Only 2 others have Aerial Combat enabled, Deed and Otto, and their classifications are both just 'possible'. Wendi's is 'limited' to using her Nirvash board LOL.
Says something about the aerial TSAB mages(and also Fate) if the top 2 'Aerial Combat' Numbers can hold their own against them.
So, it's pretty much confirmed that in terms of overall flight combat ability (( bar any situational h4xx ISes )), Tre and Sette are the best of the lot? (( not including Due ))
Ottocycle
2007-07-31, 07:12
So, it's pretty much confirmed that in terms of overall flight combat ability (( bar any situational h4xx ISes )), Tre and Sette are the best of the lot? (( not including Due ))
Barring the images being fake as well, yes.
By the way, Deed's kind of a one trick pony in her description..what she did against Erio was her basic combat tactic.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-07-31, 07:54
judging from the opening, it looks like Subaru will master her variation of the divine buster. It looks like the way how she formed it was similar to Naruto's rasengan. Maybe it will finally have range to reach enemies in the sky...:heh:, I'm just in love with the opening, even though it may not happen in the actual upcoming episodes.
Burner of Anime
2007-07-31, 08:15
As stated in the manga (and in A's), Belka-type mages specialise in close-combat. Which is not good when your opponent is a big fire, since you can't get close.
I'm not sure how "Belka-type" relates to "cartridge system". Tiana is Mid-type (cf manga), but uses cartridges. Nanoha and Fate have Mid-type devices with a cartridge system attached.[/SPOILER]
Velka style IS the cartridge system. Their combat doctrine entails a rapid closing with the opposition to negate ranged power, then killing them with an extremely heavy attack. Vita does this via her Rocket hammer attack, Signum uses Snakeform to pull the opposition close for some violent sword death :uhoh: The defense side with Shamal and Zafira has given them the ability to rapidcast numerous large and mobile shields.
In order to get close for Velka users requires some hard heads, very thick skin, the precision of a true killing machine and a spot of luck. It's also uses cartridges sparingly for reason that the magic surge will eventually erode and kill their users unless mitigated by strong bodies, relentless training or a dedicated Unison device to control the flow.
It's the more reckless and difficult to master of the 2 magic styles, but a lot deadlier when it works. Not for the faint of heart :heh:
Tiana for example uses the Velka system to power her basic anchor gun attacks. Probably a small MC style energy projectile spell set to autocast until the cartridge is exhausted. She can also use the cartridges in a single burn like a Velka mage for heavier attacks. It's what gives both Nanoha and Tiana their shocking penetration power using ranged attacks.
Velka style IS the cartridge system.
No. The cartridge system is a magic supplement in the Belka system, it is not what makes the Belka system. The Belka system just uses the cartridge to therefore make itself more effective, give the spells more power for less of a cost on the user.
Teana's use of cartridges is different. She forms magic bullets, used in her shooting spells, using energy from the cartridges, while using magic from her own body for her illusions. She only combines the use of her own magic and the magic from the cartridges for Fake Silhouette, as the power required to use that spell is immense and pretty much leaves her immobile as the strain from maintaining the spell makes it difficult to move aswell as keep it up. The massive amount of silhouettes produced in episode 17 even required help from Caro's boosting magics to keep maintained. In other words, Teana uses the cartridges as ammo for her guns (she even "ran out of ammo" and had to replace her cartridges in one episode), not like a power supplement as Belka users use them. The only Mid-mages so far to use cartridges like Belka-knights are Nanoha and Fate.
Burner of Anime
2007-07-31, 10:16
In other words, Teana uses the cartridges as ammo for her guns (she even "ran out of ammo" and had to replace her cartridges in one episode), not like a power supplement as Belka users use them. The only Mid-mages so far to use cartridges like Belka-knights are Nanoha and Fate.
Read my last para please, I basically described the mechanics of her doing both. In fact, in every time you see either X-mirage or her old anchor gun recoil heavily as she pull the trigger is when the full cartridge is expended. The first time was during the first combined training when using Phantom bullet [her homing AP shot] vs the drones. The next one was 4 cartridges and for X-fire shoot. She was exhausted the first time and nearly burned out her gun in the next.
What I meant by the Velka system is at it's core the cartridges is in it's doctrine of use. Close assault and concentrated direction of application. IMO, magic is magic- the tradeoff for using a massive burst instantly is the eventual physical cost. The irony here is someone who uses Anchient Velka going by the name of Zest, only to end up raining blood from pushing the system at it's highest level.
The first time was during the first combined training when using Phantom bullet [her homing AP shot] vs the drones.
...
That's "Variable Shoot". And Teana getting exhausted from using her spells is perfectly explainable, while she relies on the magic from the cartridges in forming the magic bullets, she doesn't rely on them actually forming their shape, that's her job. The amount of concentration needed for forming several bullets would be immense, which is why Subaru said that Teana's shots are normally inaccurate in episode 1. The immense concentration involved in making a massive Cross Fire Shoot attack would seriously tire her. And each of her Anchor Guns could only held 2 cartridges at once and required Teana to empty and re-insert a new set of cartridges in the barrels. Cross Mirage was made using Anchor Gun as a base for it's design, it would be logical to assume its Barrel Magazine's would contain only 2 cartridges/magazine. Therefore, Teana could only rely on 4 cartridges at one time for spells and would replace them when the replaces the barrels of Cross Mirage.
Burner of Anime
2007-07-31, 10:32
...
That's "Variable Shoot".
That's her basic AP shot- not the homing horror she tried on Nanoha before getting blown out of the sky.
That's her basic AP shot- not the homing horror she tried on Nanoha before getting blown out of the sky.
... Uh, no. The spell she used in episode 3 that homed in on a drone, which was what you were actually referring to, was called "Variable Shoot". A similarly named spell was used in episode 5 called "Variable Barret". Teana's most basic shot (where she just does one shot from her guns) has never been named in the anime, though apparently some DVD extra (maybe a DVD booklet) included with the first StrikerS DVD says that it's called "Shoot Barret".
Burner of Anime
2007-07-31, 11:02
... Uh, no. The spell she used in episode 3 that homed in on a drone, which was what you were actually referring to, was called "Variable Shoot". A similarly named spell was used in episode 5 called "Variable Barret". Teana's most basic shot (where she just does one shot from her guns) has never been named in the anime, though apparently some DVD extra (maybe a DVD booklet) included with the first StrikerS DVD says that it's called "Shoot Barret".
Ack, someone needs to clean up the naming conventions for the spells then :heh: Men with no time to pick out the mess tend to get confused :p My bad.
On further note, the name for artillery spell Tia tried to shoot at Nanoha in EP8 is still not known.
It sounded something like Phantom B-(something), but she never got to shout the whole name :heh:
The only thought I have reading about the Velka style is, if the whole system is defined by cartridges, why doesn't Hayate use them?
We don't see Lutecia use them either when she's blasting and she's Velka style as well.
krisslanza
2007-07-31, 11:28
Hayate uses both Midchilda and Velka I think... Plus using the cartridge system on a Intelligent Device is pretty dangerous, as it could utterly destroy it since they are pretty delicate...
But Hayate probably doesn't need cartridges since she's got Rein, plus she already has mountains of her own magical power and all... XD
You know, I never expected to be proven right that Scaglietti was not the top expert in Combat Cyborg technology, even though he pioneered the technology.
It must... annoy Scaglietti that someone created Combat Cyborgs superior to what he can create now and did it 11 years ago. Even worse, he doesn't even know who this person is.
I'm assuming even the TSAB doesn't know the identity of the scientist that ran the lab Quint raided and freed Ginga and Subaru from. That would mean they did not recover much records and anyone they managed to capture did not reveal the chief scientist's identity. It's also possible this person escaped before the lab was raided. It's also possible he was killed by the prototype Quint stopped, but I think OC creators would be more interested in the first possibility if Scaglietti bites it at the end of this season.
Plus using the cartridge system on a Intelligent Device is pretty dangerous, as it could utterly destroy it since they are pretty delicate...
In the first place, Hayate's staff isn't an Intelligent Device. In the second place, I always thought that "delicate" thing was a crock since I heard it in A's. What's stopping them from making ID designs rugged enough to take the stress of regular cartridge use?
The only thought I have reading about the Velka style is, if the whole system is defined by cartridges, why doesn't Hayate use them?
We don't see Lutecia use them either when she's blasting and she's Velka style as well.
Shamal doesn't use cartridges either. Hayate relies on mixing Mid-magics and Belka-magics (hence her title of "Mage-Knight"), though she's mainly a Belka user . And Lutecia is a summoner, she doesn't do any physical fighting so she needs no cartridges.
krisslanza
2007-07-31, 12:12
I assume Boost Devices can't use cartridges, hence how come Caro and Lutecia can't use them.
And it'd be rather hard I imagine to have a super advanced AI inside something but also make it 'rugged' enough to sustain having massive amounts of magic suddenly crammed into it repeatedly. It's bad for the AI. But I'm no Nanohaverse expert on technology so...
On totally irrelevant topic, official site has been updated, adding whole lots of characters to Characters section.
Numbers are also there, and some of them got their profile updated from ones that were leaked few days ago.
Several characters got update in their section too... oh shit, Schach's rank is Ground AAA!
Estavali
2007-07-31, 14:14
Garyuu must really either be very popular or very important. The new OP has him and now he even has his own stand-alone entry in the character list too.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 17:20
Several characters got update in their section too... oh shit, Schach's rank is Ground AAA!
As expected of Carim's personal assistant... But what do you mean by 'ground' ?
P.S - I can't read it, so the only difference I would notice is their magic rank :heh:
Nightengale
2007-07-31, 17:52
As expected of Carim's personal assistant... But what do you mean by 'ground' ?
P.S - I can't read it, so the only difference I would notice is their magic rank :heh:
Probably means that she can't fly.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 17:58
Probably means that she can't fly.
I suspected as much, but I find it hard to believe for a AAA ranked. Maybe A ranks like Ginga, but the high AAA rank?
(Aviatophobia :heh: ?)
Nightengale
2007-07-31, 18:11
I suspected as much, but I find it hard to believe for a AAA ranked. Maybe A ranks like Ginga, but the high AAA rank?
(Aviatophobia :heh: ?)
Well, Nanoha technically was AA~AAA from the very start. But she still needed flight practices from Yuuno to become a Flight Mage herself.
So, a case of clearly possessing the talent, but not going for it? Since it's not like flying comes naturally when you're A or above, it just makes learning a whole lot easier.
That being said, I'm still wondering why are they keeping Carim and Acous's rank hidden. And lol Garyuu. It really shows eh? What kind of "men" the Nanoha-staff prefers. :heh:
You know, I never expected to be proven right that Scaglietti was not the top expert in Combat Cyborg technology, even though he pioneered the technology.
It must... annoy Scaglietti that someone created Combat Cyborgs superior to what he can create now and did it 11 years ago. Even worse, he doesn't even know who this person is.
I'm assuming even the TSAB doesn't know the identity of the scientist that ran the lab Quint raided and freed Ginga and Subaru from. That would mean they did not recover much records and anyone they managed to capture did not reveal the chief scientist's identity. It's also possible this person escaped before the lab was raided. It's also possible he was killed by the prototype Quint stopped, but I think OC creators would be more interested in the first possibility if Scaglietti bites it at the end of this season.
Jack-of-all-trades (( crime included )) but master of none? Look at it this way...if he really did create Lutecia, and Zest is a similar kind of creation, then the power gap is clearly apparent. One able to match Signum/Vita while the other used as Caro/Elio counterpart. HUEG gap there.
His Drones, even powered by Jewel Seed-converted nano-chips are nothing special compared to Precia's robots, other than AMF, and the mass-productivity rate.
His Numbers...ironically, his NON-COMBAT Numbers (( Uno, Quatrro, Sein and Cinque to a degree )) seem to be the ones who are actually exceptional, while those oriented to actual combat, are either only quite good or so-so. Tre is good, but as far as her IS goes, seems quite...normal as far as speed-booster. And other combat-Numbers seem to require a counter-support to work better, due to their one-trick-pony nature. (( powerful, but counter-able easily when got a grasp of ))
Well, Nanoha technically was AA~AAA from the very start. But she still needed flight practices from Yuuno to become a Flight Mage herself.
Are you sure about that?
Before episode 4 (1st season), it seems that she hadn't thought about flying; in episode 4, she flew, just like that, without even thinking about it.
And lol Garyuu. It really shows eh? What kind of "men" the Nanoha-staff prefers. :heh:
Yep, in Nanohaverse, males are just tools for females to use.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 18:26
Are you sure about that?
Before episode 4 (1st season), it seems that she hadn't thought about flying; in episode 4, she flew, just like that, without even thinking about it.
Sound Stage.
Yuuno taught her a number of tricks including binding as well.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 18:31
Well, Nanoha technically was AA~AAA from the very start. But she still needed flight practices from Yuuno to become a Flight Mage herself.
So, a case of clearly possessing the talent, but not going for it? Since it's not like flying comes naturally when you're A or above, it just makes learning a whole lot easier.
So the question is, is it because she 'cant' learn, or 'wont' learn?
That being said, I'm still wondering why are they keeping Carim and Acous's rank hidden. And lol Garyuu. It really shows eh? What kind of "men" the Nanoha-staff prefers. :heh:
(Chrono's as well)
The most easiest explaination is that they won't be seeing combat anytime soon, so there's no need to reveal that... Which is not very comforting... :uhoh:
Would it be too much to estimate it to be around Ace-level?
arkhangelsk
2007-07-31, 19:10
I assume Boost Devices can't use cartridges, hence how come Caro and Lutecia can't use them.
And it'd be rather hard I imagine to have a super advanced AI inside something but also make it 'rugged' enough to sustain having massive amounts of magic suddenly crammed into it repeatedly. It's bad for the AI. But I'm no Nanohaverse expert on technology so...
Well, to be fair, RH never seemed to get fatally damaged by the cartridges - only Nanoha, and even that took years to manifest. Bardiche never seemed to mind the cartridges either.
As for Hayate, her LR accuracy is poor enough she probably didn't want to degrade it further by ramming cartridges. Besides, considering her "nuke" nature, she'd probably start consuming the cartridges by the box if she were to start using them.
Aaron008R
2007-07-31, 20:14
On totally irrelevant topic, official site has been updated, adding whole lots of characters to Characters section.
Numbers are also there, and some of them got their profile updated from ones that were leaked few days ago.
Several characters got update in their section too... oh shit, Schach's rank is Ground AAA!
:twitch::twitch::twitch:
Wow... I didn't quite expect that.:heh:
This made me hope that she'll be getting some fighting soon.
Key Board
2007-07-31, 20:38
Garyu gets screen time in the OP because he is what passes as Erio's rival
I think the the differences between ground and air is the exam test they take. Nanoha has an S rank air force license, but can we really say that she could pass an S rank ground exam?
...and vice versa
furthermore there seems to be a magical power pre-requisite.
LoweGear
2007-07-31, 21:01
Velka style IS the cartridge system. Their combat doctrine entails a rapid closing with the opposition to negate ranged power, then killing them with an extremely heavy attack. Vita does this via her Rocket hammer attack, Signum uses Snakeform to pull the opposition close for some violent sword death :uhoh: The defense side with Shamal and Zafira has given them the ability to rapidcast numerous large and mobile shields.
In order to get close for Velka users requires some hard heads, very thick skin, the precision of a true killing machine and a spot of luck. It's also uses cartridges sparingly for reason that the magic surge will eventually erode and kill their users unless mitigated by strong bodies, relentless training or a dedicated Unison device to control the flow.
It's the more reckless and difficult to master of the 2 magic styles, but a lot deadlier when it works. Not for the faint of heart :heh:
Tiana for example uses the Velka system to power her basic anchor gun attacks. Probably a small MC style energy projectile spell set to autocast until the cartridge is exhausted. She can also use the cartridges in a single burn like a Velka mage for heavier attacks. It's what gives both Nanoha and Tiana their shocking penetration power using ranged attacks.
I disagree with the statement in bold, if only for the fact that canon sources (the A's to StrikerS manga, and the anime) make no mention of this fact, and in fact the page of the manga shown in THIS topic outlines the difference between Belka and Mid magic, and yet makes no mention of the cartridge system. Belka is known for their cartridge system... but it is not defined by it. Which is why it is always referred to as the Belka Cartridge System, or Cartridge System for short... but never Belka System, because the system itself is simply a combat doctrine emphasizing the use of physical combat prowess enhanced by magic (in which case I concur with your other statements up to a point), as opposed to Mid-type, where the magic itself is the weapon in and of itself.
Nightengale
2007-07-31, 21:26
Since I'm an evil Jail fanboy and loves derailing to topic back to him (( not on his morality, so no worries. He's evil as far as I'm concerned. ))
Jail Ambiguity Theory, yeah both speculations based on plot hints on various things, since there's nothing absolutely concrete yet on Jail/TSAB involvement in unethical weapon experiments.
He’s the baseliner and conceptual developer for man-machine hybridization, memorized cloning, yet ironically, he’s never the man actually involved in creations of the non-Numbers/Lutecia beings, even with his overbearing presence in the scientific field back before the Aces were even born.
And other than Precia, we don’t know who these “better than Jail” scientists are.
For one, he clearly has interest in Project F remnants, which shows that his mastery in the concept of clones with memories isn’t as profound as some others like Precia or the ones who cloned Elio, despite being the baseliner and concept originator.
Secondly, for being the one who was the pioneer of m-m technology which became the baseline for future Sentoukijin concepts 25 years ago, his own Sentoukijins are not extremely exceptional, and are trumped by 11 year old models in some ways. I can understand someone else building better Kijins than him, but 11 years ago?
3rdly, he needs another person’s creation, Vivio to unleash the full power of the Relic he holds, and assuming Lutecia was his creation as a Relic Weapon, and Zest himself too is a Relic Weapon, the gap of abilities as far as combat goes is immense. At the very least, Lutecia isn’t an OVER S Relic Weapon.
Lastly, his Drones suck. Even the Type-3s which are powered by reverse-engineered nano-Jewel Seeds are only averagely C+~B at best, with AMF. Had it not been for AMF, his Drones have nothing worthy of note other than being easily spam-able and mass-produced. Even Precia’s regular robots trump his in that respect. At least they can scratch an AAA+ Chrono. Meanwhile S-ish mages are swatting these Drones like flies. HUEG gap there.
I don’t know about any of you, but if these are supposed to be hints, it seems to be implying that despite being the honcho of the “concepts” and “technologies” that gave birth to these…things, he didn’t originally develop those concepts and techs to be used as weapons, and it was other people who exploited and explored these bases to use them as weapons and such. I mean, technology to create m-m hybrid itself isn’t limited to merely combat purposes. There’s many other ways, and it’s implied that Jail’s tech actually reduces the risk of the hybridization. It was only later that Jail himself incorporated them as weapons himself, also by stealing data from those who explored his ideas better than him in terms of combat weapons. I mean, if he really spent all of those 25 years to improve the idea of Sentoukijin along with his other expertise, I can’t see him losing to 11 year old experimental creations.
And placed alongside the fact that Regius himself was one major backer of Artificial Mages/Sentoukijin to be used as a military force, alongside Quint’s possible death for seeing what she shouldn’t(( clearly TSAB/GF related, since only the higher-ups can cover it up, and she was a Ground Mage )), alongside the fact that whoever kidnapped Elio most likely had backings of the law… I dunno, but it seems to imply that a branch of TSAB is the ones who’re involved in the exploitation of such technology for the sake of peace-keeping, breaking ethics to protect ethics.
I wouldn’t be surprised if something happened down the line in Jail’s history that caused him to snap, going slightly crazy, and thus ever since, hating TSAB, for being hypocritical bastards who demean his line of science, and yet are the same people who are using his illegal science for their own benefits, beyond what his original ideals were.
Yes, it’s most likely only one part of TSAB, and that nothing justifies Jail’s actions in the long run (( since IF he intends to destroy TSAB, he’d do more harm than good )), but I think it’s way better than OMG EVIL MAD SCIENTIST DIE DIE DIE!
And unless they pull a super shocking plot-twist for the last few episodes, Jail/Vivio seem almost guaranteed the Final Bosses. (( Still, unless he use ALL his Relics to create Relic Weapons Army, I don’t see him standing a chance to destroy TSAB if he intends to do so. His current force averagely matches JUST RF6. What about other Aces from Navy/Church/Air Force? Other S~SS TSAB mages? ))
How old is Jail anyway? Unless he was a genius scientist at 10, he’s got to be at least 40~50 years old now. Mid-childan indeed… Well, that or he’s tampered with himself a little. I wouldn’t put it past that half-fruity bastard.
Well, even if he is a genius, Jail is alone. You need a team of several scientists to get good results.
As for Hayate, her LR accuracy is poor enough she probably didn't want to degrade it further by ramming cartridges. Besides, considering her "nuke" nature, she'd probably start consuming the cartridges by the box if she were to start using them.
Belt-fed Schwertkreuz.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-07-31, 21:51
Well, even if he is a genius, Jail is alone. You need a team of several scientists to get good results.
That said, so was Precia, and she didn't quite have a secretary to help her either.
Then again, she was crazier than him so...
Aaron008R
2007-07-31, 21:52
Too much!:heh:
Her latent energy is already enough to launch nuke-level spells on a regular basis!:heh:
That said, so was Precia
Precia was alone after Project F aborted.
There was an accident, the project aborted, Alicia was killed, and Precia decided to use the results of the research to create Fate-chan.
Key Board
2007-07-31, 22:48
It's possible that Subaru and Ginga are cyborgs and the Numbers are full androids
Subaru can use both magic and an IS
I have yet to see a Number use magic. In fact, I think it was stated that they don't run on magic
Nightengale
2007-07-31, 22:52
It's possible that Subaru and Ginga are cyborgs and the Numbers are full androids
Subaru can use both magic and an IS
I have yet to see a Number use magic. In fact, I think it was stated that they don't run on magic
It could simply mean that the Numbers before hybridization weren't mages.
It's way more effective to boost mages with IS, rather than boost regular humans. There's added advantage of actual magic + magic reinforcement + mechanical reinforcement + IS.
It's possible that Subaru and Ginga are cyborgs and the Numbers are full androids
Don't forget that their intellect is comparable to a normal human's.
Jail sucks at AI (his drones' AI is very basic), and even the TSAB's AIs (e.g. Mach Caliber) couldn't be mistaken as humans.
The only AIs which are on par with humans are either ancient technology AIs (Agito and maybe the Volkenritters), or based on it (Rein 2 is based on Rein 1).
So IMHO, the Numbers have at least a human brain.
Key Board
2007-07-31, 23:01
probably
it's harder to gauge in terms of before, since certain numbers were just finished recently
It could simply mean that the Numbers before hybridization weren't mages.
Which would perfectly fit Regius' point of vue.
Jail is not exactly alone, he got his numbers helping him.Looking at Uno description on the site , she must have pretty decent knowledge to assist him.
Plus Jail also backed by his clients.They might have provided him with the required equipments/fund.
Compared to Precia who was completely solitary
It's possible that Subaru and Ginga are cyborgs and the Numbers are full androids
Subaru can use both magic and an IS
I have yet to see a Number use magic. In fact, I think it was stated that they don't run on magic
Might be the other way around.
It seems that Numbers' body are enhanced after they are ready instead of altering em directly before birth.So they are closer to cyborg.
According to Genya ,Subaru and Ginga were altered before birth isn't?
Ottocycle
2007-07-31, 23:34
It's possible that Subaru and Ginga are cyborgs and the Numbers are full androids
Subaru can use both magic and an IS
I have yet to see a Number use magic. In fact, I think it was stated that they don't run on magic
Otto used binds on Caro/Fried IIRC.
Nightengale
2007-07-31, 23:44
Otto used binds on Caro/Fried IIRC.
Sette used some form of beam-attack on Fate too.
Though whether or not they're actually magic is debatable. If IS can create pseudo-magic powers that are not magic, I wouldn't put it past them having some basic non-magic magic-ish abilities. Nove did have something like Wing Road, even though it's not her IS.
It's possible that's it's related to their IE as well.
Plus Jail also backed by his clients.They might have provided him with the required equipments/fund.
That's not what they were talking about. They mean Jail doesn't have a research team working with him. All he has are his own ideas, maybe Uno can serve as a sounding board, but I don't think she can come up with something the Doctor can't think of by himself.
If he had a weapons expert, his combat Numbers would have a more impressive loadout. If he had an Artifical Mage expert, he wouldn't need to swipe Vivio from someone else. Instead, he goes around stealing other peoples' developments to add to his own.
Nove did have something like Wing Road, even though it's not her IS.
According the her website profile, that ability is called "Air Liner". Nove's IS, however, is called "Break Liner".
Ottocycle
2007-08-01, 00:08
Sette used some form of beam-attack on Fate too.
Though whether or not they're actually magic is debatable. If IS can create pseudo-magic powers that are not magic, I wouldn't put it past them having some basic non-magic magic-ish abilities. Nove did have something like Wing Road, even though it's not her IS.
It's possible that's it's related to their IE as well.
Wing Road is actually quite a special spell, as Shari said in manga chapter 8 that she was having difficulty letting Wing Road be cast independently by Mach Calibur as it is a Subaru(and Ginga)-original spell.
So looking at Nove, she is quite likely an Jail-extrapolation on what he originally knew on the Type-Zeros, plus what he saw of Subaru in eps 5&12, hence the similarities.
But I do agree it could be part of their IE. If Shari can do it, so can Jail.
EDIT: @Rob - Guess it is her IS after all XD.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-01, 00:23
Precia was alone after Project F aborted.
There was an accident, the project aborted, Alicia was killed, and Precia decided to use the results of the research to create Fate-chan.
The novel tells a different story. She was a rising project director, told to take over a crappily run power generation project, which ultimately exploded and asphyxiated Alicia. She spent a few years gathering money. IIRC, she did have a team for at least part of Project F.
To be fair to Scarlietti, he's also more constrained in his options. Magic is the mainsteam tech track in Midchildra science. People like Precia can thus work off that well-developed base. Scarlietti, however, is intent on using things other than magic for one reason or another. Open Research on all that stopped around 150 years ago when conventional weapons were banned and magic began to be a cure-all. So he has to work up from a much less developed base, perhaps even one that's ultimately not as promising.
It is also not clear that it is fair to denounce his drones too harshly. He's clearly going for quantity. AIs still seem more or less handcrafted in Midchildra, and are thus completely unsuited to the mass production of Scarlietti's drones.
Wing Road is actually quite a special spell, as Shari said in manga chapter 8 that she was having difficulty letting Wing Road be cast independently by Mach Calibur as it is a Subaru(and Ginga)-original spell.
So looking at Nove, she is quite likely an Jail-extrapolation on what he originally knew on the Type-Zeros, plus what he saw of Subaru in eps 5&12, hence the similarities.
But I do agree it could be part of their IE. If Shari can do it, so can Jail.
EDIT: @Rob - Guess it is her IS after all XD.
Not quite the same challenge level. Shari can just tap into Subaru's linker core - all she needs to do is to write out the unfamiliar casting program and integrate the judgment for Mach Caliber so it won't misfire. Scarlietti has to figure out how to replicate it entirely without using a drop of magic.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-01, 00:46
It is also not clear that it is fair to denounce his drones too harshly. He's clearly going for quantity. AIs still seem more or less handcrafted in Midchildra, and are thus completely unsuited to the mass production of Scarlietti's drones.
... Huh?
Precia seems to be going to quantity as well and she had drones (Maybe it's just one) that requires both Nanoha and Fate to work together.
Jail's drones don't run on any complex AI, their own movements when not under command are very simplistic. Mass production means that certain quality would have to be cut down, so his simple, mass production machines can't function that good with the simple AIs, then maybe he's just not good at building them.
Also, I don't see why he can't create his own AIs.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-01, 00:56
IIRC, there were about a few dozen Precia bots.
I don't exactly see a whole lot of intelligence in Precia's bots either. That last one (and only one) was tough IIRC because it had a nice shield, not because it was particularly bright (it basically raised the shield as a defense like the drones raise AMF). Chrono, a mere AAA+, lanced through most of the lot without even moving with a single Stinger Snipe. I just don't see the huge intelligence advantage here.
I'm saying he isn't even seriously trying to make good AIs. All they have to do is home in on high energy and capture them, along with brushing past light resistance. Their requirements were thus much lower than Precia's guards.
Finally, again, his options were more constrained than Precia's.
LoweGear
2007-08-01, 01:02
I'm saying he isn't even seriously trying to make good AIs. All they have to do is home in on high energy and capture them, along with brushing past light resistance. Their requirements were thus much lower than Precia's guards.
Wasn't there an episode where Jail specifically mentions that he's NOT even TRYING to give the Gadget Drones combat superiority? And the general attitude of the Doc towards the drones is one of disgust... expendable trash and junk, which rely on strength in numbers to succeed. :heh:
Precia seems to be going to quantity as well and she had drones (Maybe it's just one) that requires both Nanoha and Fate to work together.
I think it's only one such drone.
There is one big difference between Precia and Jail: Precia was a powerful mage, and her drones are powered by Mid-type magic.
Jail is no mage (AFAIK), and anyway, his drones can't use magic, since they incorporate an anti-magic system.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-01, 01:13
IIRC, there were about a few dozen Precia bots.
I don't exactly see a whole lot of intelligence in Precia's bots either. That last one (and only one) was tough IIRC because it had a nice shield, not because it was particularly bright (it basically raised the shield as a defense like the drones raise AMF). Chrono, a mere AAA+, lanced through most of the lot without even moving with a single Stinger Snipe. I just don't see the huge intelligence advantage here.
Easy there, I'm not saying they're smart.
I'm saying he isn't even seriously trying to make good AIs. All they have to do is home in on high energy and capture them, along with brushing past light resistance. Their requirements were thus much lower than Precia's guards.
In other words, with the exception of the AMF, his drones are of a simler design than Precia's, right?
Finally, again, his options were more constrained than Precia's.
But that was then, this is now. He has ALOT more resources than Precia but his drone's quality still remains the same as before.
Wasn't there an episode where Jail specifically mentions that he's NOT even TRYING to give the Gadget Drones combat superiority?
I don't think he said that explicitely. But he indeed seems to believe it's impossible to make useful drones, so I suppose he's not trying very hard.
The closest I can remember right now is in ep 9, 06:07, when he says "They're just junk I'm using as decoys so that my works shines more."
krisslanza
2007-08-01, 01:23
Didn't Jail not even name the drones? I think he just calls them 'drones' because that's what the TSAB calls them... XD
And whose not to say the drones are super smart? I mean, they DO have a AMF...
And whose not to say the drones are super smart? I mean, they DO have a AMF...
The AMF projector has nothing to do with their autonomous decision-making abilities. While they're not super-smart by any measure, they do display autonomous decision-making abilities that seem superior to what Terran technology can yet achieve. Back in ep5, they were able to attack and take control of a train all on their own. The best we can do is blast the train with a cruise missle. Anything more would need to be remotely operated.
serenade_beta
2007-08-01, 03:48
There was a female next to Lutecia's mom, but it disappears afterwards...
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-01, 04:52
There was a female next to Lutecia's mom, but it disappears afterwards...
must be one of the numbers waking up.
But another shocking fact was that Subaru and Ginga weren't type-0 beings made from Scaglietti.
If this is so, then the reason why Scaglietti wanted either Subaru or Ginga captured was to be a model of some sort...maybe since they're androids like the Numbers but can use magic, he's trying to come up with maybe one more new Number to be born with type-0 characteristics.
Nightengale
2007-08-01, 04:53
must be one of the numbers waking up.
Actually, the scene transition from 2 girls in 2 capsules to the suddenly only 1 girl was like...0.5 seconds.
So, it's likely an animation error there.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-01, 05:07
oh never noticed that.:heh:...I thought one of the numbers must have gotten up and just walked out of the tube since we did get a full intro to all of the numbers in this episode.
EDIT: on the topic of Regius knowing Zest, looks like there seems to be a dark and mysterious background between them...I wouldn't be surprised if Zest was the result of the first Einherjar project to be successful.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-01, 06:38
EDIT: on the topic of Regius knowing Zest, looks like there seems to be a dark and mysterious background between them...I wouldn't be surprised if Zest was the result of the first Einherjar project to be successful.
I have another theory.
Remember how Zest said out loud and clear that he was dead? With colourful description later on so as to prove that he was not being metaphoric?
Combo that with Regius' expression, that type of reaction is compariable to someone who had seen a ghost...
I think he killed him.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-01, 06:57
I have another theory.
Remember how Zest said out loud and clear that he was dead? With colourful description later on so as to prove that he was not being metaphoric?
Combo that with Regius' expression, that type of reaction is compariable to someone who had seen a ghost...
I think he killed him.
which would trigger Regius' little heart attack when he saw Zest.
and with that thought of Regius' supposedly killing off Zest a long time ago, Zest did mention himself that he was a living Relic weapon also just like Lutecia.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-01, 07:05
which would trigger Regius' little heart attack when he saw Zest.
and with that thought of Regius' supposedly killing off Zest a long time ago, Zest did mention himself that he was a living Relic weapon also just like Lutecia.
That's the little downside to that theory, it would indeed mean that Lutecia was dead before.
Though on the lighter side (aka, hope), it was never mention that they were on a timer.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-01, 07:06
In other words, with the exception of the AMF, his drones are of a simler design than Precia's, right?
Not necessarily. They do have lots of tentacles, and some hacking ability.
But that was then, this is now. He has ALOT more resources than Precia but his drone's quality still remains the same as before.
I'm saying he's constrained by selecting not to use magic, and thus losing the advantage of being able to rely on a solid base. If Scarlietti wants to make a part, he has to design and make it from scrap metal because non-magical weaponry was outlawed a long time ago. When Precia wants some parts she might be able to buy aftermarket or obtain design specs of similar other items because magic being actively developed.
Scarlietti is like someone who managed to make a 486-equivalent using only vaccuum tubes (OK, crap analogy there but you get the idea). They may not be the best performing things on the market but they are cheap and he did do it using vaccuum tubes when the whole world had already went to ICs.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-01, 07:10
That's the little downside to that theory, it would indeed mean that Lutecia was dead before.
Though on the lighter side (aka, hope), it was never mention that they were on a timer.
thus bringing up that theory about Lutecia's mom in the test tube could really be Lutecia herself and was recreated back in to the living world because of...Scaglietti? If this is true, Project F may be something large in Strikers' plot than we all thought it to be.
Remember in the prophecy, "the dead shall dance"?
Regius' little side project codename "Einherjar" which refers to dead people becoming soldiers to help out Valkyries in their holy battles.
If this is all true, we can be safe to say that Regius is Scaglietti's client and that this Einherjar project is being run by Scaglietti, since he was one of the scientists involved in Project F.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-01, 07:14
Not necessarily. They do have lots of tentacles, and some hacking ability.
Combat-wise. Since we can't compare otherwise because Precia's drones weren't used in any other situations.
I'm saying he's constrained by selecting not to use magic, and thus losing the advantage of being able to rely on a solid base. If Scarlietti wants to make a part, he has to design and make it from scrap metal because non-magical weaponry was outlawed a long time ago.
Actually, it is highly likely that his drones ARE using magic.
Why? One reason is because the AMF isn't always 'on', the drones themselves have to decide when to turn it on, meaning they can leave it 'off' when they fire their weapons, which I believe they're already doing.
Second, at least in the case of the Type-3s, they run on a Nano-Jewel Seed shard, which means magic powers them.
And lastly, even though Subaru's and Erio's devices came into close contact with the AMF, they don't shut down. This leads me to believe that magic could be shielded from the effects of the AMF, meaning what makes the drones tick inside, would not be affected by the AMF outside.
Key Board
2007-08-01, 07:21
gadjet drones follow a simple program: attacking everything that is in sight
source: A's to StrikerS chapter 2
Scag himself said that once they are unleashed he has little control over them
why do you think Lutecia's object control spell made them function so much better? It gave something other than a rudimentary AI
Why the heck are we even debating about this?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-01, 07:24
Why the heck are we even debating about this?
*Shrugged*
Deathkillz
2007-08-01, 07:35
thus bringing up that theory about Lutecia's mom in the test tube could really be Lutecia herself and was recreated back in to the living world because of...Scaglietti?
saying that lutecia is but a clone of her former self? headaches but why did jail bother with creating a chibi version if he was going to "revive" the original? i wonder if he is going to use lutecia as the final component in order to fully revive the original...you can see zest going berserk!
If this is all true, we can be safe to say that Regius is Scaglietti's client and that this Einherjar project is being run by Scaglietti, since he was one of the scientists involved in Project F.
he maybe funding it but he doesnt know what jail is taking most of for...but OTOH he knows that the attack was from jail himself which is something he will not be approving ~ betrayed already? O.o
arkhangelsk
2007-08-01, 07:35
Combat-wise. Since we can't compare otherwise because Precia's drones weren't used in any other situations.
Combat wise, maybe. But there is no evidence Precia's bots can even be used for something else.
Actually, it is highly likely that his drones ARE using magic.
Why? One reason is because the AMF isn't always 'on', the drones themselves have to decide when to turn it on, meaning they can leave it 'off' when they fire their weapons, which I believe they're already doing.
IIRC, they are still floating even in defense mode (AMF on), and that'd be quite difficult if they were powered by magic.
Oh Keyboard. Sorry 'bout that. For some reason, Chaos and I just seem to poke each other into action as soon as we speak :D
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-01, 07:43
Combat wise, maybe. But there is no evidence Precia's bots can even be used for something else.
They have opposable thumbs.
IIRC, they are still floating even in defense mode (AMF on), and that'd be quite difficult if they were powered by magic.
Like I've said, magic that works on the inside isn't affected.
And since flight magic isn't an enchanment or field magic, it means it doesn't need to 'manifest' on the outside of their body, hence the AMF won't affect them.
Oh Keyboard. Sorry 'bout that. For some reason, Chaos and I just seem to poke each other into action as soon as we speak :D
Coincidence.
Nightengale
2007-08-01, 07:46
And lastly, even though Subaru's and Erio's devices came into close contact with the AMF, they don't shut down. This leads me to believe that magic could be shielded from the effects of the AMF, meaning what makes the drones tick inside, would not be affected by the AMF outside.
Actually, some things about the AMF feels a little inconsistent at times. In the A's to StrikerS manga, Nanoha seems to have at least been slightly bothered (( keyword : SLIGHTLY )) by the AMF nullifying her magic attacks, but StrikerS has her punching her magic beams through them like hot knife through butter.
Well, we may be able to attest that to her increased output, (( even though she's using regular spam spells at AA )) but the Type-IIs had never shown any real degree of nullifying her attacks, where as the Type-Is had been shown to at times, even if they get penetrated easily.
And shouldn't flying be a lot harder under AMF? Nanoha and Fate still fly like eagles even when they're fighting around hordes of them...
Of course, if Type-IIs have little to no AMF range, then it's rational, but I don't see the rationale in placing weaker AMFs in Type-IIs than Type-Is.
Why the heck are we even debating about this?
Because they can at least be ordered to not be aggressive when needed to? Anyway, that's irrelevant.
Besides, the Drones are just Jail's hack-job. Even with huge numbers, he's not expecting anything from them anyway. Besides, he's supposed to be highly skilled in biological manipulation more than mechanical, which means he's just playing around with it, since robots can easily be mass-produced with money, but human resources are harder to come by.
Like I've said, magic that works on the inside isn't affected.
And since flight magic isn't an enchanment or field magic, it means it doesn't need to 'manifest' on the outside of their body, hence the AMF won't affect them.
Actually, the first time Subaru punches a Drone-ish training device during her first training mission, it clearly negated her enhancements, where she actually had to neck-bind the drones for an critical to damage it. In other words, enhancements are still negated, but enough strength to it can penetrate it.
And the manga clearly states that flying is a lot harder (( but not impossible )) under AMF.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-01, 07:46
gadjet drones follow a simple program: attacking everything that is in sight
source: A's to StrikerS chapter 2
Scag himself said that once they are unleashed he has little control over them
why do you think Lutecia's object control spell made them function so much better? It gave something other than a rudimentary AI
The drones do have certain objectives, and they would've never been able to fullfill them if they always acted like this. Moreover, it's obvious that several times in the series they didn't follow this pattern. Though the AI may not be very complicated but the drones surely don't simply attack anything in their range.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-01, 08:00
Actually, some things about the AMF feels a little inconsistent at times. In the A's to StrikerS manga, she seems to have at least been slightly bothered by the AMF nullifying her magic attacks, but StrikerS has her punching her magic beams through them like hot knife through butter.
Well, we may be able to attest that to her increased output, (( even though she's using regular spam spells at AA )) but the Type-IIs had never shown any real degree of nullifying her attacks, where as the Type-Is had been shown to at times, even if they get penetrated easily.
And shouldn't flying be a lot harder under AMF? Nanoha and Fate still fly like eagles even when they're fighting around hordes of them...
Of course, if Type-IIs have little to no AMF range, then it's rational, but I don't see the rationale in placing weaker AMFs in Type-IIs than Type-Is.
I've got a feeling that the AMF has a general output, meaning it's the same for all the different types. Type-3s are just tougher because of their armor and an additional shield.
And maybe like Teana, she has spells that could reduce the effects of the AMF on her spells, but it's better tuned that it could punch through without any resistance.
I have a theory on flying...
Actually, the first time Subaru punches a Drone-ish training device during her first training mission, it clearly negated her enhancements, where she actually had to neck-bind the drones for an critical to damage it. In other words, enhancements are still negated, but enough strength to it can penetrate it.
You misunderstood :heh: I'm saying the fields and enchantments ARE affect by magic because they work on the outside (of the body).
And the manga clearly states that flying is a lot harder (( but not impossible )) under AMF.
Hmmm... In that case, could it be said the a human body doesn't shield it as well as a machine? :heh:
I have yet to see a Number use magic. In fact, I think it was stated that they don't run on magic
The Number's have shown they can use similar technology or programs similar to the magic mages use, such as the "wing road" used by Nove, binds by Otto and flight from the combat designed numbers.
Mages draw on their linker core to perform their spells eg wing road, binds, flight etc.
Since the Numbers don't use magic as a power source, any speculation on what their power sources could be? Relics possibly? :confused:
Nightengale
2007-08-01, 08:54
Very ADVANCED tech.
I mean, magic in Nanohaverse isn't too different from a level of technology almost indistinguisable from magic to begin with. Only difference is that they clearly label it magic civilization, and only certain people can use it. Kinda like Jedis in a way.
Subaru's IS doesn't rely on their magic either, since no magic circle appeared during Subaru's IS activation.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-01, 08:59
^
A friend of mine brought up a point that with the exception of being limited to certain people, Magic in Nanohaverse is similar to Magic in "Guilty Gear" :p
They are both FREE energy.
Most likely. Though speculation on the Numbers' power sources is a matter for another time.
Although I was wondering what could you call the circles that appeared when Subaru was using her IS. The circle that appeared when she went berserk going after the Numbers and then through revolver knuckle when she was punching the hell out of Cinque's barrier. IS circles? :heh:
Since the Numbers don't use magic as a power source, any speculation on what their power sources could be? Relics possibly?
Somehow I doubt they're Relic-powered. Given the interest in Relic#11, each Relic has specific capabilities. If they're not running on any kind of magic crystal, some kind of fusion battery seems most reasonable.
Although I was wondering what could you call the circles that appeared when Subaru was using her IS.
In ep14, Marie called them magic circle templates. The Mid-type cricle and Velka-type triangles are probably templates too.
Nightengale
2007-08-01, 09:08
You must have missed it, she had the same type of circle like the Numbers, it was blue.
*cough*
I said MAGIC circle. Since it's clearly stated by Subaru herself that Sentoukijin's power source isn't magic.
Edit : Wait? They're called magic circle templates too!? Scratch my idiocy then.
Edit II : Whai? I rechecked the episode, and it clearly states that the Jail's Numbers are of a far higher level than the ones they've encountered before... which means it should be Type-0 inclusive. And the word 'latest technology cyborgs' as opposed to '11-year old outdated prototypes'... whatever. And the episode clearly stated that the Sentoukijin incident was the one that killed her mom, but now Genya says it's unknown what happened....
Thats some fast checking. :eyespin:
IS power wise, with the seemingly similar circle templates, the difference is pretty great. Subaru's IS is awesome even with a 11 year difference between her and the Numbers. Only other IS that matches her IS's destructive capabilities is Cinque's rumble detonators and Otto's ray storm.
I rechecked the episode, and it clearly states that the Jail's Numbers are of a far higher level than the ones they've encountered before...which means it should be Type-0 inclusive.
There's a way around that. Neither Subaru nor Ginga ever used their IS before. Chances are Genya shielded them from such things as much as he could. Besides, who'd expect a 4-year old girl to have a complete combat-capable IS system?
Nightengale
2007-08-01, 09:32
Thats some fast checking. :eyespin:
IS power wise, with the seemingly similar circle templates, the difference is pretty great. Subaru's IS is awesome even with a 11 year difference between her and the Numbers. Only other IS that matches her IS's destructive capabilities is Cinque's rumble detonators and Otto's ray storm.
Well, it depends on the situation too, really.
From what Cinque's profile imply, she can infuse energy into metals and change them into explosives. Makes you wonder what's her maximum limit... I mean, along with Sein's power, if she has no limitations to the mass of transmuted metal, she can just touch the steel frames of buildings and blow them sky high in 5 seconds. :eyespin:
There's a way around that. Neither Subaru nor Ginga ever used their IS before. Chances are Genya shielded them from such things as much as he could. Besides, who'd expect a 4-year old girl to have a complete combat-capable IS system?
They should had done some check-up on their components though... maybe not actual demonstrations of their combat ability, but they do need to learn as much as they could their mechanical parts in order to sustain their life as 'normally' as possible. Honestly, I doubt even Jail knew of her IS, otherwise he would never send out Nove and Wendi to be the ones, since close-combat Kijins are like the worst possible match up against Subaru's IS. Which means tech-wise, Subaru and Ginga should still be less-developed.
Well, unless of course ISes are unique to individuals. But that seems to be different from Quattro's profile which states her creation purpose...
Key Board
2007-08-01, 09:52
Subaru and Ginga are originators of the numbers, so they're obviously less recent. But prototypes almost always tend to be better in Japanese mech anime. (ie: unlimited budget, having an undocumented black box, less stable but more powerful technology, ect) The word zero alone has powerful connotation in anime
It's possible that Subaru's IS does not exist officially on files and she is told to be tight lipped about it. It is after all, banned techology.
another possibility is that it slipped by detection.
Subaru's IS seem to activate only under extreme situations. Perhaps that something locked that deep would pass the censors.
Furthermore we're dealing with regenerating circuitry here. Can you guesstimate what a nanomachine colony supposed to do just by looking at its layout?
Ginga may have not activated during the battle with 3 numbers. (she didn't meet the pre-requisite activation morale! /SRW) Otherwise they would not have captured her without taking damage. Cinque only survived because she had a Shell Coat that protected her, and even then she had to undergo extended repair
From what Cinque's profile imply, she can infuse energy into metals and change them into explosives. Makes you wonder what's her maximum limit...
One way to think of her limits would be how much energy she has available to make such infusions at a time. It may be that the entire frame of a building is too much for her to infuse, but she could cause an I-beam to blow up. Case in point, she was unable to attack again after damaging Subaru's arm. We had thought perhaps she ran out of daggers, but what if she had run out of energy instead? Here's a scary thought, because their power source is non-magical, if Cinque were to hook up a generator to herself, she'd truely have no limits to her infusion ability.
but they do need to learn as much as they could their mechanical parts in order to sustain their life as 'normally' as possible.
Like Key Board before me mentioned, the functions of such machinery is not always obvious. Not to mention it's possible to hide the maximum output of a powersource even when you can't hide the fact that it's a powersource. Up till now, all their regular exams may have revealed is that they possessed only enough power to function as normal people, nothing more.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-01, 10:32
Thats some fast checking. :eyespin:
IS power wise, with the seemingly similar circle templates, the difference is pretty great. Subaru's IS is awesome even with a 11 year difference between her and the Numbers. Only other IS that matches her IS's destructive capabilities is Cinque's rumble detonators and Otto's ray storm.
Actually, if you consider it coldly, Subaru's attack is really not that impressive. Think carefully about the amount of metal Subaru actually cracked and you'd realize it is really a very weak attack. It is in no way comparable to Heavy Barrel or even Rumble Detonator.
Consider, Cinque's RD hit not on Subaru herself, but on the Protection which is extended a distance away from Subaru's body. Which means that it was actually transmutating nothing and the explosion was entirely due to RD's energy. It easily blew up the Protection, and even though the detonations were only proximate, not contact, it managed to easily bust the barrier jacket and cause severe damage to Subaru (and apparently Mach Caliber as well).
Meanwhile, Subaru managed to crack Nove's weapon only on direct contact, with some damage to the arm. When she hit Cinque, there wasn't even exterior damage and you had to wait till the next episode just to realize why Cinque didn't just get back on her feet and extend. The attack only damaged a light frame and the delicate motion/electronic equipment underneath. Which attack really packs greater energy is actually quite visible. It is a threat to Sentokijin mostly because overall Sentokijin have very weak Defenses as compared to Attack.
I missed out the artillery heavy barrel. :heh: The two ISes you mention does have higher power than Subaru's although her IS is remarkably efficient at anti-personnel level, as stated by Quattro. Different areas of power all round. Perhaps slaughter arms or twin blades would be a better comparison to Subaru's IS.
What does the IS heavy barrel do anyway? Discharge of high levels of energy from artillery-type weapons? Although another possibility I like to include is the handling and skill with above mentioned weapons. Anyone cares to carry on? :)
What does the IS heavy barrel do anyway? Discharge of high levels of energy from artillery-type weapons?
From ep16, it appears that she can change loadouts to fire on the fly. Normally, it's physical destruction, but she fired a gas-attack in ep16 instead.
Do you think there will be a cliffhanger for this season similiar as code geass or countinuing the season up to 26 episodes? Because there are too many characters to fight against and stop Scallgetti from his evil madness.
Aaron008R
2007-08-01, 13:25
Possible. They could end it with an OVA or Movie.
The prospect does sound good.:D
Key Board
2007-08-01, 14:10
Actually, if you consider it coldly, Subaru's attack is really not that impressive. Think carefully about the amount of metal Subaru actually cracked and you'd realize it is really a very weak attack. It is in no way comparable to Heavy Barrel or even Rumble Detonator.
What!? Dieci is a bombardment type Number. Of course she makes huge collateral explosions. That's like saying Fate is inferior compared to Nanoha because her attacks have a more narrow kill zone
Consider, Cinque's RD hit not on Subaru herself, but on the Protection which is extended a distance away from Subaru's body. Which means that it was actually transmutating nothing and the explosion was entirely due to RD's energy. It easily blew up the Protection, and even though the detonations were only proximate, not contact, it managed to easily bust the barrier jacket and cause severe damage to Subaru (and apparently Mach Caliber as well).
Meanwhile, Subaru managed to crack Nove's weapon only on direct contact, with some damage to the arm. When she hit Cinque, there wasn't even exterior damage and you had to wait till the next episode just to realize why Cinque didn't just get back on her feet and extend. The attack only damaged a light frame and the delicate motion/electronic equipment underneath. Which attack really packs greater energy is actually quite visible. It is a threat to Sentokijin mostly because overall Sentokijin have very weak Defenses as compared to Attack.
It's literally stated by Quatro that Subaru's IS is effective against personnel and machinery. You also have to consider that Cinque had a Shell Coat to protect her and she was concentrating on defense. Without it, she would have been as visibly wrecked as Nove's arm. While Subaru hasn't tried that on anything flesh yet, you can probably imagine its effect on bones and internal organs. No, it doesn't make pretty big explosions, but heck if it isn't blood curdling. There's are a reason why it's called a one hit kill technique. And when that kind of label comes for sneering number four, you know it means something.
For another parallel, Nanoha and Hayate are Son Go Ku from Dragon Ball Z. Subaru on the other hand is Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star. That seemingly harmless poke is more than just a poke
arkhangelsk
2007-08-01, 19:10
What!? Dieci is a bombardment type Number. Of course she makes huge collateral explosions. That's like saying Fate is inferior compared to Nanoha because her attacks have a more narrow kill zone
Actually, if all we know about Fate and Nanoha is that Fate's attacks have a narrower killer zone, it is reasonable to deduce that Fate is inferior in at least one measure. That's how analysis works.
It's literally stated by Quatro that Subaru's IS is effective against personnel and machinery. You also have to consider that Cinque had a Shell Coat to protect her
And Subaru used Protection. The shield Coat still meant Subaru actually hit on the Shield Coat, so it was contact, not proximity.
and she was concentrating on defense. Without it, she would have been as visibly wrecked as Nove's arm. While Subaru hasn't tried that on anything flesh yet, you can probably imagine its effect on bones and internal organs. No, it doesn't make pretty big explosions, but heck if it isn't blood curdling.
It looks cool, but look past the coolness and actually evaluate the energy involved from the visible damage, and it isn't that high. Yes, the worst is that a single arm will look visibly wrecked.
It is a threat to Sentoukijin. It is different from saying it is really all that impressive in terms of power. There is a distinction.
For another parallel, Nanoha and Hayate are Son Go Ku from Dragon Ball Z. Subaru on the other hand is Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star. That seemingly harmless poke is more than just a poke
Never watched Fist of the North Star, so the reference blew right by. Sorry.
Burner of Anime
2007-08-01, 19:52
Actually, if all we know about Fate and Nanoha is that Fate's attacks have a narrower killer zone, it is reasonable to deduce that Fate is inferior in at least one measure. That's how analysis works.
Personally, a narrow attack is only inferior when looked at as is. Fate is not only concentrated killpower but also relentless hammering because of her inherent speed. Law of averages favours the one who is able to land more hits than a static single hit beam.
It looks cool, but look past the coolness and actually evaluate the energy involved from the visible damage, and it isn't that high. Yes, the worst is that a single arm will look visibly wrecked.
There is something you've ignored here, this was preceeded by a powerful shieldbreaker attack :uhoh: She essentially smashed through a defensive barrier, wrecked a protective coat AND inflicted a crippling attack. The only other person seen to be able to do this thus far is Vita, that's already a giant load of violent hurt in one place. I'd say Nove and Cinque are very lucky they came away with their lives and a few parts damaged. Imagine if they didn't have that defensive barrier, additional protection coat or be willing to sacrifice an arm. :twitch:
Nightengale
2007-08-01, 20:01
There is something you've ignored here, this was preceeded by a powerful shieldbreaker attack :uhoh: She essentially smashed through a defensive barrier, wrecked a protective coat AND inflicted a crippling attack. The only other person seen to be able to do this thus far is Vita, that's already a giant load of violent hurt in one place. I'd say Nove and Cinque are very lucky they came away with their lives and a few parts damaged. Imagine if they didn't have that defensive barrier, additional protection coat or be willing to sacrifice an arm. :twitch:
Actually, I think the Shield/AMF comes with the coat (( they can't use magic after all )), so Cinque's turtle shield is one layer on its own. And that's the main point. Subaru's IS is so lethal towards Sentoukijin even after its effectiveness is dispersed through protection and range, it damages the mobility frames of a Sentoukijin. There's no need to imagine anything, since a direct hit had clearly been stated as a one-hit-kill. In fact, regular people receiving it would also probably come close to death since it still does break through protective shields easily.
Burner of Anime
2007-08-01, 20:25
Actually, I think the Shield/AMF comes with the coat (( they can't use magic after all )), so Cinque's turtle shield is one layer on its own. And that's the main point. Subaru's IS is so lethal towards Sentoukijin even after its effectiveness is dispersed through protection and range, it damages the mobility frames of a Sentoukijin. There's no need to imagine anything, since a direct hit had clearly been stated as a one-hit-kill. In fact, regular people receiving it would also probably come close to death since it still does break through protective shields easily.
Wow, that's even nastier :uhoh: That would mean if she were to use her Divine Buster version and just shockwaves the opposition at medium distance they'll still take hurt regardless of shielding.
Wow, that's even nastier :uhoh: That would mean if she were to use her Divine Buster version and just shockwaves the opposition at medium distance they'll still take hurt regardless of shielding.It was shown in epi 1 that Subaru had to physically punch the shield to use her IS on it. Only after that did she DB the fake type-2
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