Code Geass - General Character Discussion

[xris]

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss the various characters of Code Geass outside the context of the episode discussion threads. To keep the discussion enjoyable for all Code Geass fans, please follow the guidelines below and stay on-topic!

Note: Please don't use this for the specific episode / chapter / game talk, there are other threads (http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=64) for that stuff.
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[Meatrose]

Great! The creation of this thread was not in vain. The question is, do I still have the willpower to discuss the topic "Lelouch VS Suzaku" with all the Zero-haters out there? I most certainly do, but it's time to hit the sack for now. Be back tomorrow, hoping to find this thread full of serious theories and discussions. ^^

Way to go xris! =)

[Blue_Mercy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Code_Geass_characters

I doubt I can give better biographies than wikipedia(ha Nina's last name was Einstein, seriously?), but I can give my opinions of the characters that are still alive.


Lloyd Asplund - His interest in research seems to be above his interest in relations to others. Not only that but he appears to be in a technological arms race with Laksharta. He and Cecile have a previous relationship with Laksharta, but it is unclear under what terms it broke off. He is also responsible for the data that went in to designing Lelouch's Hadron Cannon on his Gawain, and the flying fortress which has become Lloyd's base of operations so to speak. As for the fans I'm sure we can expect some new inventions in the 2nd season from Lloyd.

Cecile Croomy - One of the few remaining important people to Suzaku. She apparently is replacing him for someone who we haven't learned about yet. I suspect her to be one of the only people other than Nunnaly capable of helping Suzaku get over Euphie.


Laksharta Chawla- The Research and Development chief for the Black Knights. We still are unclear what the past relationship was between her, Cecile, and Lloyd but I'm willing to be it ended badly even though Laksharta still has trust with Lloyd.


General Bartley - In charge of the original project with C.C. and most of the time a comedy aspect for the audience. Things just never seem to go Bartley's way except getting saved by Schneizel.

Gilbert Guilford- Guilford is an elite Knightmare pilot, is Cornelia's personal knight, commands troops well, and has become a rival for Todo Kyoshiro in the show. He has also become the commander for the Glaston Knights in the Battle for Tokyo.

Nina Einstein- Nina is also a character that has provided comedy to us throughout the 1st season, despite her level of intelligence. Nina has a very racist view towards the Japanese, and expresses it several times in the show. Honestly, I don't know where her character is going, I can only hope for someone to put a bullet in her head in the 2nd season so she stops taking screen time. She has vast knowledge of nuclear physics, and later uses it in the construction of her homemade bomb. Her Euphemia love crush caused a complete breakdown once Euphemia died and like many others seeks revenge against Zero.

Millay Ashford- She is the most calm out of the student council members, often keeping her cool even in times of crisis such as the hotel jacking and Ashford takeover. She is engaged to Lloyd, and is incredibly wealthy in many ways.

Rival Cardemone- friend to Lelouch and one of the earliest characters we meet. He is in fact responsible in a round about way for everything in the shows events starting from when he blocked Kallen's trailer with C.C. in it. He defends Millay and the other student council members when the OoBK take over the school. His crush on Millay, well we will just have to see how that works out in season 2.

Arthur- probably one of my favorite characters is this cat, thought I'm not sure if I like this cat because of his comedy aspect or because he bites Suzaku almost all the time or both.

Sayoko Shinozaki- I'm guessing she is supposed to be Nunnaly's bodyguard but seeing how much Nunnaly gets kidnapped. I'm surprised Lelouch hasn't fired her.

Shirley Fenette - Shirley has had an extremley tough time in this series so far from being kidnapped, to her father dying, to nearly killing her love, to getting geassed. Her character has become one of pity, and I don't see her romantic interest of Lelouch getting re-sparked.

Jeremiah Gottwald - Nickname: Orange-kun Even with his recent power up given by General Bartley Jeremiah has fallen from a high ranking officer to a lab rat experiment. The worst thing he has done was at the end of the most recent episode where one of our favorite characters C.C. is sinking his mech to the bottom of the ocean along with herself. Hopefully we can be rid of Orange-kun and move on to new villains in season 2.

Viletta Nu- A high ranking purist who has now regained her memory and will likely report to the higher Britannian officers in an attempt to gain nobility. Her biggest contribution to the war so far has been shooting the Black Knight commander Ougi Kaname.

Euphemia Li Britannia- She is the only dead character I am going to mention due to her importance. Her pacifistic ideals were enough to even sway Lelouch to join her before the massacre. She had many supporters and as a result of Lelouch killing her Lelouch has gained an unbelievable amount of enemies. Perhaps the most important of these being her relationship with her knight Kurugi Suzaku as he has caused the most problems for Lelouch. Euphemia was kind to a fault even risking her own life several times. Her death was not only the most tragic, but the most important in relation to the story because it has created a dividing line between Suzaku and his long time friend Lelouch; one that can only be broken by one of them or both of them dying.

Cornelia- Older sister to Lelouch, Nunnaly, and Euphemia. Another person who was shattered by the death of Euphemia. We have known about how closely Cornelia thought of Euphie, and she also values the lives of her army. Her view on numbers though is very different and will not hesitate to kill many numbers if it completes her objective. I suspect she is still alive.

Schneizel El Britannia- He is very intelligent as it is mentioned not only about his chess matches with Lelouch, but several plans including when Zero and Lancelot teamed up and using Euphie's S.A.Z. to stop resistance in Area 11. However, I only have Scheizel as #3 on Lelouch's list of main enemies. Hopefully Scheinzel won't be able to hold the Chinese Union and the OoBK can get some back up. He is one of Lelouch's suspects to be behind the murder of Lelouch's mother.

V.V. - I have V.V. tied with #2 with Suzaku as main enemies for Lelouch. V.V. is skilled, loves confrontation, and is bored three things that have created disaster for Lelouch. V.V. has the ability to teleport people, the limits of this ability we do not know. He put Suzaku close to Kallen, and Lelouch close to Euphemia the first time clearly trying to spark violence. All V.V. had to do was kidnap Nunnaly the second time and everything that Lelouch has worked for begins to crumble. Needless to say I don't think Lelouch and V.V. will be able to discuss their differences over a cup of tea.

Emperor or Britannia- this guy in addition to be a world class jackass, is also a major pimp. He has more wives then James Bond has women. The Emperor throws Nunnaly and Lelouch away to Japan then declares war on Japan. Honestly, I think to either kill Lelouch or have him grow up in a war area. Either way this is Lelouch's main villain / final boss so to speak. But if Lelouch is going to face the Emperor he is going to need Japan. He is also one of Lelouch's suspects to be the killer of his mother.

Ougi Kaname- A one time teacher and friend to Kallen's brother Naoto has become a commander with Lelouch's Black Knight army. He has recently been shot and even though shot ordered Kallen to retrieve Zero to help turn the tide back for Japan.

Kallen Kozuki/Stadfeld- It's getting harder and harder to choose between Kallen and C.C. as my favorite character. She has been Lelouch's most impressive Knightmare pilot and soldier. She has been fighting alongside Lelouch as Zero since the beginning in the Shinjuku ghetto but has only recently learned along with Suzaku that Zero is Lelouch. She proudly fights to avenge her brother's death, and change the world for her mother to live in an liberated Japan. However, at the revelation that her idol Zero is Lelouch her emotions are torn and she may have even shot and injured Lelouch(god i hope not) Kallen is a possible love for Lelouch.

C.C.- C.C. is many people's favorite character, and the one people want to know the most about. She gave Lelouch his Geass ability and has many herself included high speed regeneration even if shot in the head, or stabbed, or tortured, or set on fire.......Even though she often refers to herself as a witch, I haven't seen her do too many evil things except tease Lelouch and abandon Mao. She has lived for an unnamed amount of time at least a few hundred years. She has a scar which apparently cannot heal and for some reason needs Lelouch alive. Whether for her own purposes or because she genuinely cares for Lelouch or both is still uncertain but probably both. She has fought hard for Lelouch, and is more than likely in love with him. C.C. is a possible love for Lelouch also.

Nunnaly vi Britannia - She is Lelouch's cause and was Euphemia's cause. She has been through an incredible ordeal having her mother die on top her causing trauma and being paralyzed from bullets. Her kindness is the only person that reaches above Euphemia's. She was recently kidnapped again, and her condition is uncertain. Lelouch's devotion to his younger sister and wanting to create a peaceful world for her is something I admire as I also have a younger sister.

Kurugi Suzaku- The second main character behind Lelouch. He is Lelouch's first friend and his ultimate enemy. Where as Lelouch has gone against Britannia and is Britannian to create a peaceful world for Nunnaly and find his mother's killer. Suzaku has joined Britannia against Japan and is Japanese trying to change Britannia from within and is often called a traitor. Suzaku was on his way to completing this goal with Euphemia's S.A.Z. area pressing for equality. However, as soon as Euphemia shot that Japanese man in the front row, Suzaku's goals were killed also. Many morality debates have waged on this but I must keep my opinions about Suzaku out of this thread. Suzaku became the pilot to prevent people from dying but was really trying to die himself and repentance for killing his father. His position in the Britannian army has put him against Lelouch since the beginning of the season and will likely continue in the second season. Suzaku's physical abilities allow him to dodge bullets and pilot Lancelot at incredible speeds.


Lelouch vi Britannia- The main character of the series. Lelouch was born a prince and at the age of 17 has gained a superhuman ability, created a revolutionary army winning several battles against a superior power in Britannia, become the hope of Japan disguised under the title Zero, is extremely intelligent, and done all of this for the sake of his sister and to discover his mother's murderer. He has also done several evil things including killing innocent people in the Narita area, and assassinating two political leaders. Lelouch's identity was recently exposed to Cornelia, Suzaku, and Kallen but Cornelia was geassed and can only remember Kamenija being mentioned.

Wow, that was alot of typing and my hands are tired. Hopefully this will help you understand the characters more.

[Var]

Something that Blue Mercy brought to my mind while reading that long write up. It is on Kallen.

We have seen her stick true to one goal, overall, since the start of the series... though it does wax and wane through the coarse of Season 1. That goal being the liberation of Japan, or the creation of a world where she can live happily and know that her brother's life was not wasted. Various episodes seem to show her growing more and more capable of dealing with the consequences of her dreams, and yet later the show seems to show that she can also come to doubt it (that or Suzaku simply knows how to flatter someone then slam a punch at their ideals). Does anyone beyond me find this a tad odd? Perhaps poor scripting or poorly thought out development, something to make her seem more and more capable of switching sides perhaps?

The reason I say this is that her goals center on the value of life and the desire to live a good life, yet if they are so easily waned by a single lecture from an enemy she comes off as a weak minded character. Which I highly doubt she is. It seems that the writers may try to force a change of character in her, which seems wrong. It would basically be the same thing as Lelouch deciding that Nanally wasn't worth it and its time to move on. Just that instead of a young girl and dead mother, you have a dead brother and an ill mother. I don't believe that she will abandon that ideal but the way her character is going I am not keeping my hopes up... or down :heh:.

[Meatrose]

I agree with you Var... Kallen/Karen is most certainly an interesting character, an she's the second most important character to the show... in my opinion. I do believe that her ideals and goals ain't all that different in comparison to Lelouch's after all. He fights to create a secure and peaceful nation for his sister to live in, whilst trying to uncover the secrets behind his mother being killed. Karen is fighting to create a secure and peaceful nation for her and her mother to live in, whilst trying to justify her brothers actions... and making his death be "not in vain". I don't really know what the general Geass-fan out there thinks, but Karen seems to be the most appropriate partner for Lelouch. I'm not talking about partners in crime here, but partners in life. Sure, C.C. is an extremely popular choice, but I'm rooting for Karen. ^^

Hopefully they'll discover that they're basicly fighting for similar reasons, and not only to "liberate japan from an invading, tyranny-driven, suppressing, racist superpower", even though that is a honorable and common goal. Karen was, without a doubt, sincerely shocked to discover the true identity of her beloved hero Zero, but they're really not that different... if you look beyond the fact that Lelouch/Zero is a LOT more "hardcore" than her. I just hope that the somewhat dense (as far as romance is concerned) Lelouch manages to grasp this as well.

[JagdPanther]

I don't find Kallen interesting as much as highly irksome. I've already covered this a couple times, but...

Normally I'm all over female characters, especially female fighters. But Kallen... Totally rubs me the wrong way. Probably a big deciding factor is that I don't like Lulu or the OotBK, and since she's in with both, she gets placed way down on my list.

Her words and actions always seem to find a way to piss me off. In episode 13, she was describing why she does what she does, and some of it is an admirable stance, but christ, she's nuts. She also changes a bit too quickly for my tastes. She is really rigid on some things, and flips in an instant on others. Like with saving her mother in the one episode... Her mother says a half a sentence and Kallen all of the sudden understands everything about her mother and is fighting for her rather than wishing she wasn't around. I understand Refrain is a hallucinogenic that creates a past for the user, and obviously Kallen's mother was imagining a better time, but Kallen... You mean to tell me in the heat of battle one sentence is processed in an instant and Kallen suddenly totally changes her opinion about her mother? Ooooooookay......

I just don't know how to describe it. Kallen irks me. If she ends up with Lulu, I'll be pissed. I definitely need him and C.C. to be together for me to not be disappointed beyond repair. Or no one, that'd actually be better.

[Juvyniled]

I'm inclined to agree with JagdPanther that Kallen is not all that interesting (but she is not bothersome at all for me). She's a generic fighter character: problematic background, skillful. determined, fights for her ideals, stubborn, etc. At times, she casts doubt on her current position, but for the most part it is entirely relative to her ideal - some sort of resolution for Elevens.

She's a buxom beauty who wields a gun. She is by no means as 'interesting' (not so much in a good way) as C.C.

[ghostxlix]

i dunno, Kallen seems a bit more deep then you give her credit for. the whole mother drama she had gave her some character and some events in epi 25 added to her character as well.

i think it would be hard to label the "deepest/most interesting" character because its not the individual characters that make it interesting, but the way they interact and feed off each other. Lelouch wouldn't be as interesting a character without Nunnally, Nina would be plain BORING without the princess Euphie side element for her, Ougi x Villetta and the list goes on.

i think Kallen x Zero/ Kallen x Lelouch will be fleshed out more Season 2 (if she lives) but who knows, one of the best things about CG is that you have no clue what is goin to happen....ever.

[Var]

I don't find Kallen interesting as much as highly irksome. I've already covered this a couple times, but...

Normally I'm all over female characters, especially female fighters. But Kallen... Totally rubs me the wrong way. Probably a big deciding factor is that I don't like Lulu or the OotBK, and since she's in with both, she gets placed way down on my list.

Her words and actions always seem to find a way to piss me off. In episode 13, she was describing why she does what she does, and some of it is an admirable stance, but christ, she's nuts. She also changes a bit too quickly for my tastes. She is really rigid on some things, and flips in an instant on others. Like with saving her mother in the one episode... Her mother says a half a sentence and Kallen all of the sudden understands everything about her mother and is fighting for her rather than wishing she wasn't around. I understand Refrain is a hallucinogenic that creates a past for the user, and obviously Kallen's mother was imagining a better time, but Kallen... You mean to tell me in the heat of battle one sentence is processed in an instant and Kallen suddenly totally changes her opinion about her mother? Ooooooookay......

I just don't know how to describe it. Kallen irks me. If she ends up with Lulu, I'll be pissed. I definitely need him and C.C. to be together for me to not be disappointed beyond repair. Or no one, that'd actually be better.

I do agree that who ever wrote her character seems to have made her mind easily persuaded. While the scene with her mother I can forgive, it is her mother after all, certain other moments seem to make me wonder what the writers are trying to get at, I mean come on, no one would/should be able to come to doubt the life of their brother that easily.

However, as we both know, I do not find her irksome, just a a bit oddly designed. I also do agree with Meatrose that she has the most in common with Lelouch but not as fanatical, though still probably nearing fanaticism, as him.

I think that the biggest problem with her character, that people have, is the way they (the writers) portrayed her, really forcing someone to look beyond what is given to really make any sense of it. One episode she gladly kills flocks of people, later comes to wonder why, then later again is fine with, and of course only to later come to question it again. Her shock at Lelouch's identity somewhat compounds my question of what the hell are the writers thinking.

I mean come on, she just pledge her loyalty to basically follow him into Hell and yet goes and wonders if her brother's life meant anything... Last I checked, when you pledge to follow someone to Hell, you're following them to Hell.

[evil|plushie]

I think Kallens a bro-con and other than that, she didn't really seem to think too much about her life in general.

[Yui-]

(btw why isn't it Karen, wouldn't that be more probable english translation, I've never understood why in the world it would be Kallen... is it just a habit of calling her, started by some unknown group of people or is it an official translation of her name?)

Maybe she is just supposed to be very conflicting and then in the end she suddenly finds herself and gets some idea of what she wants to do with her life instead of just some pointless-looking resistance (except Black Knights are not a resistance according to Zero).

[Ky-66]

(btw why isn't it Karen, wouldn't that be more probable english translation, I've never understood why in the world it would be Kallen... is it just a habit of calling her, started by some unknown group of people or is it an official translation of her name?)

Im pretty sure its because when zero looks at his phone in some episode it shows her name spelled as kallen. Of course he also spelled Rival as Rivalz on his phone.

I dont see kallen as a weak minded character however, unlike some of you. Shes dedicated her life to the rebellion and every action shes taken shows her commitment towards it. Her moments of uncertainty are only natural too. Even lelouch showed some uncertainty as to whether he should continue as zero after finding out that he unitentionally killed shirley's dad(it was in his monologue in the episode preview), because up until then neither had been faced with the direct reality that civilians might be caught up in their struggle(even though they considered it, its different if you know it happened to someone you know).

As for her doubting her brother, I dont think that she actually ever did. Her words while being held prisoner by suzaku show only that while she understands suzaku's motivation she is unwilling to accept that her brothers death(and life) had no meaning and therefore will fight on. She is only human so it is natural for her to doubt herself at times(unlike suzaku which I feel is more unrealistic in that sense) but regardless she sticks to the cause that she has committed herself to because it would be more unrealistic for her to act on those doubts.

As for her reaction to seeing zero's identity,ive already put forward a theory in the 24/25 discussion that she suspects zero actually has a supernatural power to control people, but im too lazy to restate the evidence i put forth here so...

even if you dont buy that, just because shes shocked that her god is that guy she really dislikes from her school doesnt mean that shes not willing to follow through with the rebellion.

As for episode 9, I thought that while that did show that kallen is pretty dumb when it comes to seeing through people's reasons, it wasnt unrealistic for her to discover her mothers reason for staying with her only after her mother says it herself. Kallens character is one that often doubts herself and is more easily swayed then lelouch's but if she wasnt then i doubt she could have come to trust in zero enough to do the orange incident with him in the first place, i mean it does sound quite like a suicidal plan after all.

self-doubting and more easily swayed then lelouch, yes, but weak-minded and unrealistic, i dont think so.

edit- my statement may have been somewhat contradicting but ehh...i think it mostly makes sense

[Var]

Im pretty sure its because when zero looks at his phone in some episode it shows her name spelled as kallen. Of course he also spelled Rival as Rivalz on his phone.

I dont see kallen as a weak minded character however, unlike some of you. Shes dedicated her life to the rebellion and every action shes taken shows her commitment towards it. Her moments of uncertainty are only natural too. Even lelouch showed some uncertainty as to whether he should continue as zero after finding out that he unitentionally killed shirley's dad(it was in his monologue in the episode preview), because up until then neither had been faced with the direct reality that civilians might be caught up in their struggle(even though they considered it, its different if you know it happened to someone you know).

As for her doubting her brother, I dont think that she actually ever did. Her words while being held prisoner by suzaku show only that while she understands suzaku's motivation she is unwilling to accept that her brothers death(and life) had no meaning and therefore will fight on. She is only human so it is natural for her to doubt herself at times(unlike suzaku which I feel is more unrealistic in that sense) but regardless she sticks to the cause that she has committed herself to because it would be more unrealistic for her to act on those doubts.

As for her reaction to seeing zero's identity,ive already put forward a theory in the 24/25 discussion that she suspects zero actually has a supernatural power to control people, but im too lazy to restate the evidence i put forth here so...

even if you dont buy that, just because shes shocked that her god is that guy she really dislikes from her school doesnt mean that shes not willing to follow through with the rebellion.

As for episode 9, I thought that while that did show that kallen is pretty dumb when it comes to seeing through people's reasons, it wasnt unrealistic for her to discover her mothers reason for staying with her only after her mother says it herself. Kallens character is one that often doubts herself and is more easily swayed then lelouch's but if she wasnt then i doubt she could have come to trust in zero enough to do the orange incident with him in the first place, i mean it does sound quite like a suicidal plan after all.

self-doubting and more easily swayed then lelouch, yes, but weak-minded and unrealistic, i dont think so.

edit- my statement may have been somewhat contradicting but ehh...i think it mostly makes sense

I see your point on Kallen. Don't worry I understood what you were getting at. Her being more moderate, now that I think of it, could be called Zero's saving grace, as he has come to trust her. Its just that some parts of her doubt seem to come up too easily, but that could just be my paranoia of plot device. :heh:

On a note not pertaining to Kallen, what is the relationship that we can gather between Cecile, Lloyd and Lakshata. The ED shows them as probably having worked together at some point, yet when they refer to one another in the show they use indirect references "that man" "that woman" etc... They also seem to have a serious competition going on about their inventions, a microcosm of the war.

[Ky-66]

On a note not pertaining to Kallen, what is the relationship that we can gather between Cecile, Lloyd and Lakshata. The ED shows them as probably having worked together at some point, yet when they refer to one another in the show they use indirect references "that man" "that woman" etc... They also seem to have a serious competition going on about their inventions, a microcosm of the war.

Lloyd has referred to Rakshata by her name several times now, and im pretty sure that pudding earl is her nickname for lloyd, so i have no doubt that they once knew each other, probably quite closely. Some sort of falling out perhaps? or maybe its nothing personal and they just like challenging each other with new technological advances and the battlefield is the easiest way to do so, after all wasnt rakshata a medical scientist working on advances in robotic prothetics some time ago?

[HunterRequiem]

I'm inclined to agree with JagdPanther that Kallen is not all that interesting (but she is not bothersome at all for me). She's a generic fighter character: problematic background, skillful. determined, fights for her ideals, stubborn, etc. At times, she casts doubt on her current position, but for the most part it is entirely relative to her ideal - some sort of resolution for Elevens.

She's a buxom beauty who wields a gun. She is by no means as 'interesting' (not so much in a good way) as C.C.


Oddly, I find C.C. to be your typical "mystical girl" character. If CG was a comedy/romance, C.C. would be left high and dry. I think Kallen appears to be so flip-floppy (for lack of a better phrase) simply because she's been living two lives for quite awhile. I think part of the reason that Kallen seems so much like a cookie cutter chick-with-a-gun is because she consciously wants people to think that's what she is. Yes, she is fanatically obsessed with kicking Britiania out of Japan. Yes, she wants to make sure her brother didn't die in vain. She tells Suzuku in the island episode that her Japanese personality is her real personality. That said, we also see her worried about her first kiss, or Shirley running arround with her in a bathing suit. We see her seriously consider Lulouch romantically. Honestly, there are only two things I can think of that can tell us why she acted at the end of ep 25 in the way she did.
1) at the moment, Kallen was completely obsessed with battle, and beleives that Zero has abandoned her
2) The script writers have absolutely no idea what the hell they're doing.
If I was writing the script, Kallen's reaction would have been "Oh" accompanied by her connecting the dots. Kallen's character is much more complicated then a girl-with-a-gun; I personally don't think it suits her.

Also, we see the name Karen and Kallen. Kallen is her Japanese name/personality, and Karen is her Britanian name/personaility (or at least that's what I gathered from the translation). Seeing that she's pratically two people, I personally prefer to use whichever one fits the mood she is in, just like the difference between Lulouch/Zero. This is why LulouchxKaren and ZeroxKallen are two different categories.

[Var]

2) The script writers have absolutely no idea what the hell they're doing.
If I was writing the script, Kallen's reaction would have been "Oh" accompanied by her connecting the dots. Kallen's character is much more complicated then a girl-with-a-gun; I personally don't think it suits her.


I'm going to go with this choice. What she did simply did not make sense with what her character had been built up as. The only other explanation is that she was madly in love with Zero and discovering it was Lelouch somehow made that... go awry? Nah, even then it doesn't work.

[Juvyniled]

Why do I say that Kallen is less 'interesting' than C.C.? We completely know what Kallen's objectives are and we've seen her character more than enough to know what is and what isn't consistent and she's very objective and direct.

While it's true that we've seen less of her type of character than we have of C.C.'s, I say that she's less interesting in the sense that what you see is what you get. Her complexity lies within her emotions, but not within her character. Complicated? Not really. She knows what she wants, save the few moments when she has doubts about what her leader is doing. But it is human nature to question your own actions once in awhile.

CG isn't geared towards romance so I'd be wrong to analyze Kallen in that context. But I believe your argument fits more in the romance thread.

[Terrestrial Dream]

This is the probably the only show that I hate so many characters. First of all I hate Suzaku for betraying his country some of you guys might not agree he did betray his country. This guy had no pride for his country, he thought by working with Britanian that the people might change. No chance in hell, Britanian from the looks of it they will keep oppressing the Japanese and the stupid honorary Britanian is only mean to make the Japanese puppet to Britania. Suzaku became nothing more than a dog to Britania and he keep saying honest way, WTF is wrong with this kid. Britanian are already using dishonest way to control people, and he keep saying stupid things like living honest way to solve problem.


The second I hate that stupid lesbian Nana, she pissed me off so much I wanted to shoot her with a gun myself. She keep calling Japanese Eleven she pissed me off every time she said that. She kept looking down on Japanese like a person looking at a garbage or something. I hope they kill her right away in the next season.


Now I hated all the Britanian armies and the people (not the kids at the school), it just was personal thing. This story reminded me of occupation of Korea by Japan and when I was young I read that I would get pissed. The damn Britanians reminded me of the Japanese during world war II that's why I couldn't bring my self to liking them.

Now Lelouch I really can't decide what to say about this kid I kinda hate this kid and yet at the same time I kinda pity him. Most of my post wouldn't make sense because I just finished the show and I just can't think straight right now.

[Echoes]

Even if Karen has her emotions and goals all out in the open, I don't think this makes her a dull character, though she's prone to be a little predictable. I personally find C.C. to be the more appealing of the two, possibly because she's on Lelouch's side no matter what his objectives are, as opposed to Karen, who's just going her own road, which happens to (or so she believed) be the same as Lelouch's.

Well, to be honest, I didn't really need a reason to like C.C. better, since I loved the character ever since I saw her in the opening, so anything I say is probably just me trying to rationally justify "love at first sight."

And I too hate Suzaku, but I've said that so many times already, it's not even funny anymore.

[HunterRequiem]

Suzuku would be a slightly more interesting character if he had a real reason to fight for Britania. The way he's panning out, he's just weak, and fighting for Britania is the easiest thing for him. If, in the second season, he gets a spine, I might find him more interesting. When he's collected, though, he's a decent, carring character. If only his motives weren't all screwed up.

On the topic of Nina, I might say that I seriously pity that poor girl. I don't think she is naturally a lesbian; however, the problems associated with her girl crush were certainly foreseeable. This is actually something that does happen with girls quite often; although they are otherwise straight, they somtimes develop a crush or fall in love with another girl. Don't ask me for details, or why this happens :heh:

As for C.C., I'm not entirely sure, but, as I've stated, I don't really like her. I've always found the mystical girl types annoying, though I must admit that she is at least not helpless. Her attitude and honesty make her memorable, but, IMO, not adorable. I'd much rather see her end up as Lulouch's confidante or advisor, since I think she is much better suited for that. I think I'm going to shut up on this topic before I make myself look like too much of a fool.

As for Lulouch, I think he's really awesome when he is calm and collected. I like his control and his incredible intellect, as well as his down to earth attitude. (his goals may not be down to earth, but his attitude/methods are). That said, the new, agsty Lulu is just annoying. He's completely lost his demeanor, and is acting erratically. Overall, though, his character is great.

[Juvyniled]

I think it's rather opposite for Suzaku's case: fighting against Britannia would be much easier since there would be no holds barred, or less restraint for him. If he had turned to the side of the rebels, he'd likely have fallen into the JLF category and held bystanders hostage to promote his cause. But on the Britannian side... he is not going to hunt down innocent Elevens to stop the rebels. The motivation behind his plan, however, is weak because he doesn't know the empire of Britannia all too well. That is pure naivete.

[evil|plushie]

I don't think its a matter of which side would be easier for Suzaku. Rather he HAS to join britiannia if only to mentally justify what he did in the past, while seeking death and redemption.

[HunterRequiem]

My point. If he was stronger, perhaps he could put his father's death aside and fight for his country.

[Yui-]

The second I hate that stupid lesbian Nana, she pissed me off so much I wanted to shoot her with a gun myself. She keep calling Japanese Eleven she pissed me off every time she said that. She kept looking down on Japanese like a person looking at a garbage or something. I hope they kill her right away in the next season.

I agree, Nina's actions came to me as a surprise. Since she appears to be very intelligent I would never have believed her to be so vulgar. I mean, she really should know better, shouldn't she? I say that under that cowardly, shy facade she is really a brutal piece of s**t...

[Var]

My point. If he was stronger, perhaps he could put his father's death aside and fight for his country.

Problem is, he killed his father. If he were able to just put it aside would make him more of a hypocrite. The moment he starts fighting against Britannia, he admits that his father was correct and that he killed him for no reason... making most of his life up to that point... pointless. :heh:

[evil|plushie]

Actually, I don't think it would make him more of a hypocrite. It would probably be a sign that his mental health is recovering. But alas, I don't think he'll ever be able to put it aside -_-

[Var]

Actually, I don't think it would make him more of a hypocrite. It would probably be a sign that his mental health is recovering. But alas, I don't think he'll ever be able to put it aside -_-

You are probably right. Now that I think about it, if he were able to come to put it behind him he might actually become more sane and less of a hypocrite.

[HunterRequiem]

I agree, Nina's actions came to me as a surprise. Since she appears to be very intelligent I would never have believed her to be so vulgar. I mean, she really should know better, shouldn't she? I say that under that cowardly, shy facade she is really a brutal piece of s**t...

You have to remember, Nina seems to have been put through some sort of extremely traumatic experience involving numbers. Milly mentions this on the train in the hotel-jacking episode. Also, you can only imagine the propaganda put out by the britanian government against numbers.

[evil|plushie]

I'm not sure anything that Sunrise does could redeem Nina in the eyes of fans. I think she's almost universally hated by people who watch Code Geass.

[HunterRequiem]

Certainly, I don't particularly like her character, I'm just mounting the small amount of defense afforded to her by the writers :heh: The least we can do is consider all the evidence. Heck, Ill even throw in my own opinion. She should have stayed with her computer simulations and not bothered with romance at all. :rolleyes:

[Shadow Miko]

Eh. Nina was alright. I didn't hate her. But I suspect you were supposed to not be on the side of Britiannia but I was. So maybe that's why I don't hate her.

I do however hate Kallen/Karen. I cannot stand her. I think she's overrated and was a peice of eyecandy. She did do alot and was crucial to the plot in some ways but those spots could have been filled without her. I know somebody is going to try and have me hunted down for that little comment but I just don't like her.

[Juvyniled]

I wouldn't really describe her character as overrated since she was really the champion of the Knights prior to them acquiring the Gawain. But she really is just a piece of eyecandy. Imagine replacing her with an average looking girl with the same determination, same zeal, etc. and there wouldn't that much of a hype over her.

But for Kallen's character, there's really nothing left in terms of complexity. She will no longer cast any doubts about her position relative to what Suzaku is doing (having second thoughts since the Elevens showed signs of admiration), though there may be a potential conflict (of ideals) between her and Lelouch.

[Blue_Mercy]

I always enjoyed Kallen's character not just because of eye candy, but because while Lelouch was the brains Kallen was the muscle. Complete opposites even down to their reasons for fighting. Lelouch is avenging his mother while fighting to create a world for his sister. Kallen is fighting to avenge her brother while creating a safe world for her mother.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Eh. Nina was alright. I didn't hate her. But I suspect you were supposed to not be on the side of Britiannia but I was. So maybe that's why I don't hate her.

I do however hate Kallen/Karen. I cannot stand her. I think she's overrated and was a peice of eyecandy. She did do alot and was crucial to the plot in some ways but those spots could have been filled without her. I know somebody is going to try and have me hunted down for that little comment but I just don't like her. I really hated Nina she had almost zero purpose in the story I don't even get why they made her, and well I really don't like Britannia (especailly those damn royal family, yes even Euphie annyoed me) I guess that kinda increased my hate towards to Nina more. Now for Karen I actually liked her as Blue_Mercy mentioned she actually has a motivation for fighting and because of that I respect her.

[evil|plushie]

They needed someone to come up with a nuke and threaten to blow up everyone in Tokyo -_-

[Terrestrial Dream]

They needed someone to come up with a nuke and threaten to blow up everyone in Tokyo -_- I think they could have done without that part.

[evil|plushie]

In reality, it's like Nina's char was created for the sole purpose of starring in all the shit scenes. Need someone to be racist against 11s? Nina. Need someone to hump a table? Nina. Need someone to be a creepy obsessive stalker? Nina. Need someone to build a nuke and then threaten to kill everyone? Nina.

[anti-random]

Hit the spot with the Nina character evil plushie, but don't you need a character like Nina in an anime like this. I mean the thing is about discrimination and stuff and in that kind of show you need a character like Nina to show how the extreme (bit less) side thinks and acts. That is why the character of Nina exists. But i hope she blows herself up in some hell-hole in the middle of nowhere.

[Var]

Hit the spot with the Nina character evil plushie, but don't you need a character like Nina in an anime like this. I mean the thing is about discrimination and stuff and in that kind of show you need a character like Nina to show how the extreme (bit less) side thinks and acts. That is why the character of Nina exists. But i hope she blows herself up in some hell-hole in the middle of nowhere.

Its understandable that they make her represent racism, but they didn't need to tack on all the other things too. She was simply given all the negative aspects of life in that universe, making her very much so unappealing or likable... maybe one could pity her.

[foreverdissevered]

LeLouch
Though falling into the same fate as Raito( being controlled by his powers), I absolutely loved this character. Bad idea for the producers to let him be addicted with domination( he completely changed after realizing he cant control his powers) and forgetting his soul purpose for starting this war( so he can be happy with Nanally). He was one with a heart, he cared about others, like erasing the memories of Shirley despise his lose.

Suzaku
K.. I hated this guy. I never understood his reason for fighting against the rebellion. The world was injustice, the resistance against it was strong and blood was spilling everywhere. Its not like the rebellion was ever demolished. He just wanted to be with the Britanians, choosing to side with them cause they are stronger? I get so fustrated seeing him in the show....

C.C
I love this character as well. I sense kindness from her, a strange aura even. I dont understand why LeLouch treated her mean sometimes. Perhaps because she does not have a place in this society?
Btw, would someone please tell me what the pact between her and LeLouch was? Thanks :D

[lightbringer]

evil|plushie hit it right on, although I would add "psycho bitch from hell" to that list. Nina is pretty unhinged - would you say obsessive-compulsive in this kind of situation? Anyway, they could have spread it out a bit more, but that would have reduced the effect. It's not like Nina is the only racist in the show, there's plenty of those to go around. We also have to consider that there was some event in Nina's past which led to her current fear of Elevens - something about being left behind, if Millay's talk on the train way back at the beginning during the hoteljacking has any meaning to it.

[WhiteWings]

They really didn't seem to try that hard to make Nina a interesting character.

[bladeofdarkness]

wow
i didnt even know that there IS a thread like this one
darthfury buddy
knock yourself out :D

[incorrupts]

In reality, it's like Nina's char was created for the sole purpose of starring in all the shit scenes. Need someone to be racist against 11s? Nina. Need someone to hump a table? Nina. Need someone to be a creepy obsessive stalker? Nina. Need someone to build a nuke and then threaten to kill everyone? Nina.

Haha, that is actually pretty accurate to make someone lol. I suppose, you could say that Sunrise did try their best, to make Nina...well, not likable. 8D {much}

And blade woah, kudos for finding that one, that shall be interesting. xD

[Gordy Lechance]

Just realized something.

Lerouch is one of the few "used correctly, can kill a Saiyajin/Saiyan of Dragonball Z/Kai " normal human characters.

Even if the Geass does not work on full blooded Saiyajin Warriors like Prince Vegeta or Kakarot, Son Gohan, Trunks and Son Goten (and of course, Gotenks) are still half-human.

And no human, no matter how strong willed, can resist even the kill yourself command. :heh:

Oh, Lerouch, you scare me more and more every-day. :heh:

[Rising Dragon]

Just realized something.

Lerouch is one of the few "used correctly, can kill a Saiyajin/Saiyan of Dragonball Z/Kai " normal human characters.

Even if the Geass does not work on full blooded Saiyajin Warriors like Prince Vegeta or Kakarot, Son Gohan, Trunks and Son Goten (and of course, Gotenks) are still half-human.

And no human, no matter how strong willed, can resist even the kill yourself command. :heh:

Oh, Lerouch, you scare me more and more every-day. :heh:

Two humans showed the willpower to break through a Geass command: Euphemia, and Nunnally. You'd have to put one of the Saiyans into one hell of a Heroic BSOD to get a Geass to work on them, as they have far greater willpower than the average human.

[Nobodyman9]

Two humans showed the willpower to break through a Geass command: Euphemia, and Nunnally. You'd have to put one of the Saiyans into one hell of a Heroic BSOD to get a Geass to work on them, as they have far greater willpower than the average human.
Hmm, true. Actually, I would theorize that pretty much all Shonen heroes are immune to geass by default. Luffy, Naruto, Ichigo, their will is just too strong to break, even by the geass. Now Emo Sasuke on the other hand...

[Gordy Lechance]

Two humans showed the willpower to break through a Geass command: Euphemia, and Nunnally. You'd have to put one of the Saiyans into one hell of a Heroic BSOD to get a Geass to work on them, as they have far greater willpower than the average human.

Though Nunna-chan and Euphie-chan are not any ordinary humans either; both have the will of varitable Saints compared to your average Jane or Joe. ;)

[yezhanquan]

Well, the power of the Geass itself isn't tied to the user's own determination to make it succeed. Uneven playing field.

Also, Nunnally broke Charles' Geass, but not Lelouch's. Same goes with Euphie.

[yvj]

This thread is now about the real man of the show Tamaki.


http://animehistory.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/snapshot20080811214919.jpg

http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs37/f/2008/244/1/a/Short_Attention_Span_by_kyon9854.jpg

Low on intelligence, low on charisma, and low on combat ability. Tamaki has no business fighting in this war but he is fighting, surviving, and along the way he's cheering people on, laughing it up, stating the obvious and forever talking shit, no matter what the situation.

Though ya gotta wonder why they keep him around? Personally I think it's for the sexual innuendo. Who else is going to crack dirty jokes about Zero and C.C, though I bet he probably includes all the female members in the organization.

Tamki adding some levity to a horrific war. Thumbs up to Zero's best buddy

[yezhanquan]

He reminds me of Abbe Sieyes. When asked what he had done during the French Revolution, his reply? "I survived."

[Nobodyman9]

Ah Tamaki. The underdog, the pushover, the punching bag, the comic relief, the Yamcha. However you spin it it's just........Tamaki.

[yvj]

Ah Tamaki. The underdog, the pushover, the punching bag, the comic relief, the Yamcha. However you spin it it's just........Tamaki.

You dare compare Tamaki to Yamacha?

1) Yamacha never said anything funny

2) Tamaki didn't spend most of his life being afraid of women.

3) Tamaki never died.

Yamcha can't see Tamaki-kewn

[Gordy Lechance]

Ah Tamaki. The underdog, the pushover, the punching bag, the comic relief, the Yamcha. However you spin it it's just........Tamaki.

Well, he is more of a Kurillin than a Yumcha. ;)

[yezhanquan]

I think "Patrick" sounds good, although Tamaki didn't score with any woman.

[Kid Ying]

C'mon, don't compare Yamcha to Tamaki. Yamcha was useful for some time at the beginning of the series, Tamaki is... Well, i think he's not even a comical relief, cause seeing people crying was funnier than his appearences.

So i hate Tamaki? No. But he certainly sux bad. I like to cheer for the losers, but Tamaki managed to making me don't give a damn about him, and that's preeeetty bad.

[Nobodyman9]

You dare compare Tamaki to Yamacha?

1) Yamacha never said anything funny

2) Tamaki didn't spend most of his life being afraid of women.

3) Tamaki never died.

Yamcha can't see Tamaki-kewn

C'mon, don't compare Yamcha to Tamaki. Yamcha was useful for some time at the beginning of the series, Tamaki is... Well, i think he's not even a comical relief, cause seeing people crying was funnier than his appearences.

So i hate Tamaki? No. But he certainly sux bad. I like to cheer for the losers, but Tamaki managed to making me don't give a damn about him, and that's preeeetty bad.
Well, I guess those two posts could cancel each other out, but....

Well, he is more of a Kurillin than a Yumcha. ;)
Okay, I'll settle for Krillin :D

[Rising Dragon]

I think "Patrick" sounds good, although Tamaki didn't score with any woman.

Ah, but Tamaki did have Ayame Futaba.

[Nobodyman9]

Who the hell is Patrick? For a second there I thought you were talking about Patrick from Spongebob.

[yezhanquan]

Tamaki's counterpart loser from 00.

[Kid Ying]

Who the hell is Patrick? For a second there I thought you were talking about Patrick from Spongebob.
Well, if we're going to compare Tamaki to someone in Spongbob, it's gotta be Squidward. Only unfunnier.

[Rising Dragon]

Tamaki's counterpart loser from 00.

To be fair, Patrick did a LOT better than Tamaki ever did, though I love them both for who and what they are.

[yezhanquan]

He bagged Kati. Need we say more?

[Rising Dragon]

He bagged Kati. Need we say more?

He bagged Kati AND got a few enemy mech kills, one of which was a Gundam.

Did Tamaki ever actually make a prominent kill in the show?

[bladeofdarkness]

good point

about the sayajin thing
lelouch's geass can command you to do what ever he wants you to do
but the effect of trying to fight against it seemed to happen only when the order given is something that the person finds absolutly revolting and goes against everything that they are (euphie killing people, nunnaly allowing lelouch to win after she just killed hundreds of people trying to stop him)
die may not be the same

[Nobodyman9]

Tamaki's counterpart loser from 00.
Ah thanks. Never saw 00.

EDIT: @ blade: Well, I'd have to say that most saiyans and shonen heroes don't really want to die, especially for no good reason. Take Luffy for example. His dream is to be the Pirate King and for that he is, of course, going to have to live to achieve it. If Lelouch gave him the order to die, well, I can see him overcoming it with his indominable will (the Will of D) Heck, he may even fight it off with his Haki.

To keep this thread on topic (:heh:) I always did wonder why Lelouch's geass victims weren't more resistant to killing themselves. I mean, it's one of the things people fear most.

[bladeofdarkness]

death is not the enemy
death simply IS

[Nobodyman9]

death is not the enemy
death simply IS
My. How very profound :heh:

[bladeofdarkness]

My. How very profound :heh:

wish i could claim it as my own (B5) :heh:

[Rising Dragon]

To be fair, Geassing Goku into dying is... well, pointless.

[Nobodyman9]

To be fair, Geassing Goku into dying is... well, pointless.
He died like, what, twice? Krillin must've died like 5 times.

[Gordy Lechance]

He died like, what, twice? Krillin must've died like 5 times.

Well, thrice to be exact. Dragonball GT does NOT count. ;)

More on topic, which started on a nearby thread...

It would be really worrying if Nasty-Ol Lerouch Geassed an Alien Queen to be his slave, wouldn't it? :heh:"

[Rising Dragon]

Well, thrice to be exact. Dragonball GT does NOT count. ;)

More on topic, which started on a nearby thread...

It would be really worrying if Nasty-Ol Lerouch Geassed an Alien Queen to be his slave, wouldn't it? :heh:"

Seeing how those aliens don't even have eyes... the chances are slim.

[Gordy Lechance]

Seeing how those aliens don't even have eyes... the chances are slim.

Remember that scene in Aliens where Her Majesty saw the elevator door open, and tilted her head in acknoledgement of it? Then getting on it and operating the darned thing to chase after Ripley?

Yeah, Xenomorphs have eyes. :heh:

But when you really think about it, humanity's collective ID did not have eyes either when Lerouch Geassed it, didn't it? ;)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Xenomorphs can't be Geassed, but that has nothing to do with eyes.
They can't understand human language. If you can't give commands, Lulu's Geass is meaningless.

Anyway, Lulu would have no interest in Geassing the Queen. The man has no real ambition. Lulu does not care for power for its own sake.

And the Xenomorph Queen can't give him anything he can't already get. The Queen is just an animal, weak to any human marine who is armed properly. The Xenomorph's capabilities are grossly exaggerated.

Tooth, claws, acid blood? Who cares. Humans are far more deadly.

[Isha Ichiinu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Code_Geass_characters

I doubt I can give better biographies than wikipedia(ha Nina's last name was Einstein, seriously?), but I can give my opinions of the characters that are still alive.


Lloyd Asplund - His interest in research seems to be above his interest in relations to others. Not only that but he appears to be in a technological arms race with Laksharta. He and Cecile have a previous relationship with Laksharta, but it is unclear under what terms it broke off. He is also responsible for the data that went in to designing Lelouch's Hadron Cannon on his Gawain, and the flying fortress which has become Lloyd's base of operations so to speak. As for the fans I'm sure we can expect some new inventions in the 2nd season from Lloyd.

Cecile Croomy - One of the few remaining important people to Suzaku. She apparently is replacing him for someone who we haven't learned about yet. I suspect her to be one of the only people other than Nunnaly capable of helping Suzaku get over Euphie.


Laksharta Chawla- The Research and Development chief for the Black Knights. We still are unclear what the past relationship was between her, Cecile, and Lloyd but I'm willing to be it ended badly even though Laksharta still has trust with Lloyd.


General Bartley - In charge of the original project with C.C. and most of the time a comedy aspect for the audience. Things just never seem to go Bartley's way except getting saved by Schneizel.

Gilbert Guilford- Guilford is an elite Knightmare pilot, is Cornelia's personal knight, commands troops well, and has become a rival for Todo Kyoshiro in the show. He has also become the commander for the Glaston Knights in the Battle for Tokyo.

Nina Einstein- Nina is also a character that has provided comedy to us throughout the 1st season, despite her level of intelligence. Nina has a very racist view towards the Japanese, and expresses it several times in the show. Honestly, I don't know where her character is going, I can only hope for someone to put a bullet in her head in the 2nd season so she stops taking screen time. She has vast knowledge of nuclear physics, and later uses it in the construction of her homemade bomb. Her Euphemia love crush caused a complete breakdown once Euphemia died and like many others seeks revenge against Zero.

Millay Ashford- She is the most calm out of the student council members, often keeping her cool even in times of crisis such as the hotel jacking and Ashford takeover. She is engaged to Lloyd, and is incredibly wealthy in many ways.

Rival Cardemone- friend to Lelouch and one of the earliest characters we meet. He is in fact responsible in a round about way for everything in the shows events starting from when he blocked Kallen's trailer with C.C. in it. He defends Millay and the other student council members when the OoBK take over the school. His crush on Millay, well we will just have to see how that works out in season 2.

Arthur- probably one of my favorite characters is this cat, thought I'm not sure if I like this cat because of his comedy aspect or because he bites Suzaku almost all the time or both.

Sayoko Shinozaki- I'm guessing she is supposed to be Nunnaly's bodyguard but seeing how much Nunnaly gets kidnapped. I'm surprised Lelouch hasn't fired her.

Shirley Fenette - Shirley has had an extremley tough time in this series so far from being kidnapped, to her father dying, to nearly killing her love, to getting geassed. Her character has become one of pity, and I don't see her romantic interest of Lelouch getting re-sparked.

Jeremiah Gottwald - Nickname: Orange-kun Even with his recent power up given by General Bartley Jeremiah has fallen from a high ranking officer to a lab rat experiment. The worst thing he has done was at the end of the most recent episode where one of our favorite characters C.C. is sinking his mech to the bottom of the ocean along with herself. Hopefully we can be rid of Orange-kun and move on to new villains in season 2.

Viletta Nu- A high ranking purist who has now regained her memory and will likely report to the higher Britannian officers in an attempt to gain nobility. Her biggest contribution to the war so far has been shooting the Black Knight commander Ougi Kaname.

Euphemia Li Britannia- She is the only dead character I am going to mention due to her importance. Her pacifistic ideals were enough to even sway Lelouch to join her before the massacre. She had many supporters and as a result of Lelouch killing her Lelouch has gained an unbelievable amount of enemies. Perhaps the most important of these being her relationship with her knight Kurugi Suzaku as he has caused the most problems for Lelouch. Euphemia was kind to a fault even risking her own life several times. Her death was not only the most tragic, but the most important in relation to the story because it has created a dividing line between Suzaku and his long time friend Lelouch; one that can only be broken by one of them or both of them dying.

Cornelia- Older sister to Lelouch, Nunnaly, and Euphemia. Another person who was shattered by the death of Euphemia. We have known about how closely Cornelia thought of Euphie, and she also values the lives of her army. Her view on numbers though is very different and will not hesitate to kill many numbers if it completes her objective. I suspect she is still alive.

Schneizel El Britannia- He is very intelligent as it is mentioned not only about his chess matches with Lelouch, but several plans including when Zero and Lancelot teamed up and using Euphie's S.A.Z. to stop resistance in Area 11. However, I only have Scheizel as #3 on Lelouch's list of main enemies. Hopefully Scheinzel won't be able to hold the Chinese Union and the OoBK can get some back up. He is one of Lelouch's suspects to be behind the murder of Lelouch's mother.

V.V. - I have V.V. tied with #2 with Suzaku as main enemies for Lelouch. V.V. is skilled, loves confrontation, and is bored three things that have created disaster for Lelouch. V.V. has the ability to teleport people, the limits of this ability we do not know. He put Suzaku close to Kallen, and Lelouch close to Euphemia the first time clearly trying to spark violence. All V.V. had to do was kidnap Nunnaly the second time and everything that Lelouch has worked for begins to crumble. Needless to say I don't think Lelouch and V.V. will be able to discuss their differences over a cup of tea.

Emperor or Britannia- this guy in addition to be a world class jackass, is also a major pimp. He has more wives then James Bond has women. The Emperor throws Nunnaly and Lelouch away to Japan then declares war on Japan. Honestly, I think to either kill Lelouch or have him grow up in a war area. Either way this is Lelouch's main villain / final boss so to speak. But if Lelouch is going to face the Emperor he is going to need Japan. He is also one of Lelouch's suspects to be the killer of his mother.

Ougi Kaname- A one time teacher and friend to Kallen's brother Naoto has become a commander with Lelouch's Black Knight army. He has recently been shot and even though shot ordered Kallen to retrieve Zero to help turn the tide back for Japan.

Kallen Kozuki/Stadfeld- It's getting harder and harder to choose between Kallen and C.C. as my favorite character. She has been Lelouch's most impressive Knightmare pilot and soldier. She has been fighting alongside Lelouch as Zero since the beginning in the Shinjuku ghetto but has only recently learned along with Suzaku that Zero is Lelouch. She proudly fights to avenge her brother's death, and change the world for her mother to live in an liberated Japan. However, at the revelation that her idol Zero is Lelouch her emotions are torn and she may have even shot and injured Lelouch(god i hope not) Kallen is a possible love for Lelouch.

C.C.- C.C. is many people's favorite character, and the one people want to know the most about. She gave Lelouch his Geass ability and has many herself included high speed regeneration even if shot in the head, or stabbed, or tortured, or set on fire.......Even though she often refers to herself as a witch, I haven't seen her do too many evil things except tease Lelouch and abandon Mao. She has lived for an unnamed amount of time at least a few hundred years. She has a scar which apparently cannot heal and for some reason needs Lelouch alive. Whether for her own purposes or because she genuinely cares for Lelouch or both is still uncertain but probably both. She has fought hard for Lelouch, and is more than likely in love with him. C.C. is a possible love for Lelouch also.

Nunnaly vi Britannia - She is Lelouch's cause and was Euphemia's cause. She has been through an incredible ordeal having her mother die on top her causing trauma and being paralyzed from bullets. Her kindness is the only person that reaches above Euphemia's. She was recently kidnapped again, and her condition is uncertain. Lelouch's devotion to his younger sister and wanting to create a peaceful world for her is something I admire as I also have a younger sister.

Kurugi Suzaku- The second main character behind Lelouch. He is Lelouch's first friend and his ultimate enemy. Where as Lelouch has gone against Britannia and is Britannian to create a peaceful world for Nunnaly and find his mother's killer. Suzaku has joined Britannia against Japan and is Japanese trying to change Britannia from within and is often called a traitor. Suzaku was on his way to completing this goal with Euphemia's S.A.Z. area pressing for equality. However, as soon as Euphemia shot that Japanese man in the front row, Suzaku's goals were killed also. Many morality debates have waged on this but I must keep my opinions about Suzaku out of this thread. Suzaku became the pilot to prevent people from dying but was really trying to die himself and repentance for killing his father. His position in the Britannian army has put him against Lelouch since the beginning of the season and will likely continue in the second season. Suzaku's physical abilities allow him to dodge bullets and pilot Lancelot at incredible speeds.


Lelouch vi Britannia- The main character of the series. Lelouch was born a prince and at the age of 17 has gained a superhuman ability, created a revolutionary army winning several battles against a superior power in Britannia, become the hope of Japan disguised under the title Zero, is extremely intelligent, and done all of this for the sake of his sister and to discover his mother's murderer. He has also done several evil things including killing innocent people in the Narita area, and assassinating two political leaders. Lelouch's identity was recently exposed to Cornelia, Suzaku, and Kallen but Cornelia was geassed and can only remember Kamenija being mentioned.

Wow, that was alot of typing and my hands are tired. Hopefully this will help you understand the characters more.

Everytime I look through the whole list that someone typed either they forget Rolo Lamperouge or just don't give a crap.
Rolo Lamperouge-Rolo is a trained assassin, having killed many powerful figures during his life. He has had his Geass powers from the age of six. His main assassination method is to use firearms at close range, but he is also known to utilize and handle other weaponry expertly, including knives and poison. It is unknown what his real name is, but he quite frequently employs the codename "Rolo Haliburton". His real age and date of birth, though unknown even to the Secret Intelligence Service, is said to be 14 to 16 as of 2017. While Rolo puts up a front of being very shy and withdrawn at school, this exterior hides a ruthless and detached killer who will do whatever it takes to complete his mission. While working with the Britannian Secret Intelligence Service, he is aloof and doesn't seem very interested. He often stays in the background and simply listens, and isn't afraid to be very blunt of their faults. In the third episode of R2, he kills a member of the Intelligence Service simply for hearing part of his coversation about Geass with Villetta Nu. When Villeta questions how many he killed (indicating a large body count), he merely replies, "This is the best and fastest method, right?" Despite his attitude towards the mission, he is devoted to Lelouch. Despite his urge to kill Zero, he never looks at him badly and immediately supports him. Lelouch's year without memories show him and Rolo quite happy, particularly when Lelouch gives him a heart-shaped locket as a birthday present, which he keeps attached to his cellphone. he even refuses to return it after Lelouch regains his memory. It is also clear that he has also been heavily affected by his time with Lelouch. Because of this, he was easily manipulated into believing that Lelouch cares for him after Lelouch pretends to have saved his life. Lelouch plans to throw him away after he makes good use of him.

Please people Remeber the Rolo.:(

[Gordy Lechance]

Anyway, Lulu would have no interest in Geassing the Queen. The man has no real ambition. Lulu does not care for power for its own sake.


Well, of course she would not be an end unto herself...

But the children that she produces, ah that is the real prize of the goldmine.

Queens in the expanded universe have been documented to inherit the genetic memory of the host they inhabited as Chestbursters, and that includes the ability to understand their language. Hence the Queen's ability to quickly adapt to her enviroment and adapt to her present enemies/host supplies.

Most dangerously of all, her children also genetically and psychically inherit her memories through the hive mind. Which means if the Queen is obedient to Lerouch, each and every xenomorph from the lieutenant warriors down to the chestbursters and even facehuggers in the hive will be obedient to Lerouch. He can literally go as far as to order the facehuggers to not impregnate Nunnally-chan if he wanted the failsafe precaution just in case.

Imagine an army of suicidally obedient warriors who do not even feel pain, much less fear death, that also stirkes maddening, mortal terror into your foes.

Which brings me to another reason why Lerouch would think owning a xenomorph army is profitable.

Mr Lamperouge is shown to appreciate the value of psychological warfare. Once word (and streamed videos) gets out of the revolting, agonizing and humiliating deaths awaiting those captured to give birth to his acid-blooded warriors through their ribcages, his foe's armies would lay down their arms at the mere mention of his name, or simultaneously bite their tongues at his approach, winning the battle without the fuss of even firing a single shot.

A xenomorph army is as much a terror-and-propaganda weapon as it is a blunt instrument, and combined with the absolute obedience one gains from Geass, he or she who possesses it is veritably invincible.

If that was not the case, why has the Weyland Yutani Company tried for 400 years to possess it? ;)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

If that was not the case, why has the Weyland Yutani Company tried for 400 hundred years to possess it?
First, Lulu is not greedy. Everything he needs can be obtained by Geassing humans.

Second, I have yet to see any Xenomorph not able to be killed by a human.

Seriously, likely it or not, Xenomorphs are WEAK. They are pathetically predictable animals who are no where as dangerous as a human.

Weyland Yutani Company just wanted an army that isn't regulated by the government. That's why they ended up getting killed; they never have access to what human race is fully capable of, because they always want to hide their research from the rest of the population.

Xenomorphs are amusing animals, and their biology could be used to develop new weapons like acid grenades. But humans have always been the most dangerous animals of all in the Aliens franchise.

By the way, Lulu doesn't rule by fear. Only incompetent and stupid rulers rule that way. Lulu rule by fooling people into thinking they are not doing what he wanted them to do.

[bladeofdarkness]

this is suppose to be a code geass general character thread
how the hell did it come to this
first Saiyans and now Xenomorphs :heh:

[Gordy Lechance]

Okay, to close off the subject...

Lerouch geassed "God" right?

Which means that if one one fine day he bumps into a young lady called Suzumiya Haru...

OH CRUD!! WE ARE ALL SO FUNKED!! :heh:

[Rising Dragon]

Okay, to close off the subject...

Lerouch geassed "God" right?

Which means that if one one fine day he bumps into a young lady called Suzumiya Haru...

OH CRUD!! WE ARE ALL SO FUNKED!! :heh:

He didn't Geass God. >___>

[morbosfist]

He didn't Geass God. >___>He did use Geass on God, though, just didn't order him so much as ask nicely.

[Nobodyman9]

Again, we go back to the "eye question". Does God even have eyes? Well, regardless it's one of the many technicalities of geass. I mean, just the fact that he convinced God to do it, geass or not, is pretty damn impressive.

[snowdevil_crow]

His Geass evolved and he asked God nicely not to do it.

I dunno whether that counts as actually Geassing God. I figured the Collective Consciousness just decided to help him or something. Then again, maybe God felt sorry for constantly Deus Ex Machina-ing him.

[Nobodyman9]

^Eh, God's a bitch.

[Kid Ying]

Hey, if he Lelouch was geassing god, why he didn't asked for God to undo all this stuff? I mean, if Charles and V.V never thought about the plan in the first place, everyone would be happy, hehe.

Or he simply could do it in a evangelion way, asking for god to recreate to world so he can live a normal life with Kallen as his childhood friend, C.C as the new student who bumps into him at the street, you know, it would work, hehe.

[Nobodyman9]

Hey, if he Lelouch was geassing god, why he didn't asked for God to undo all this stuff? I mean, if Charles and V.V never thought about the plan in the first place, everyone would be happy, hehe.

Or he simply could do it in a evangelion way, asking for god to recreate to world so he can live a normal life with Shirley as his childhood friend, C.C as the new student who bumps into him at the street, you know, it would work, hehe.
Fixed it for ya :D

Seriously though, to answer your question, I'm not sure even God was capable of doing that. Even God has laws that he/she/it has to obey and it can't just go flying off the handle to reverse time and bring the dead back to life. Plus, that'd be kind of a cop out on the writers' part.

[Kid Ying]

Shirley can't be his childhood friend because i can't imagine Shirley kicking Lelouch's butt because he's overslept... And after Evangelion you must do this, otherwise, you're not a childhood friend, hehe. Shirley is Kaworu. :hehe:

Well, for me, if God is God, then at least he can change the past, i mean, that can't be that hard for an almost omnipotent being. But yeah, it would suck as an ending, it just that it bugs me, you have a moment when you have the power of FUCKING GOD and don't try to make something bigger, just "LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE" and that's it? It bugs me, hehe.

[Nobodyman9]

Shirley can't be his childhood friend because i can't imagine Shirley kicking Lelouch's butt because he's overslept... And after Evangelion you must do this, otherwise, you're not a childhood friend, hehe. Shirley is Kaworu. :hehe:
Kaworu?! Dude, don't even go there. And yes, I'll admit Shirley isn't as Tsundere or "kick-butt" as Asuka (though they do have the same hair color) but I can see Shirley nagging on Lelouch to get his butt out of bed.

Well, for me, if God is God, then at least he can change the past, i mean, that can't be that hard for an almost omnipotent being. But yeah, it would suck as an ending, it just that it bugs me, you have a moment when you have the power of FUCKING GOD and don't try to make something bigger, just "LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE" and that's it? It bugs me, hehe.
Well, beggars can't be choosers. You can't push your luck. I think Lelouch was lucky to get what he got, and he (and we, for that matter) didn't know exactly what kind of power this god has.

[Kid Ying]

Hey, i'm not saying just Shirley is a male in this world, Shirley is Shirley, it's just there isn't another person wanting to get Shinji besides Rei and Asuka, hehe. Suzaku would be Touji, Hikari euphemia and Gino was ripped of this new world, hehe.

[Nobodyman9]

Hey, i'm not saying just Shirley is a male in this world, Shirley is Shirley, it's just there isn't another person wanting to get Shinji besides Rei and Asuka, hehe. Suzaku would be Touji, Hikari euphemia and Gino was ripped of this new world, hehe.
Okay, I don't know what you're talking about, but Shirley definitely wants to get Lelouch. But maybe we should stop this argument while we're ahead.

[Kid Ying]

Okay, I don't know what you're talking about, but Shirley definitely wants to get Lelouch. But maybe we should stop this argument while we're ahead.
Well, my point is: if Lelouch did create this kind of world after asking to god:

Kallen would be the tsundere one, like Asuka
C.C would be the girl that got a lot of secrets and it's the most famous one, like Rei
Shirley would be the charming who clearly shows that she likes Lelouch, like Kaworu.

It's more in the aspects of personality, not "Shirley will be a guy!" we already have Suzaku for this, hehe.

In fact, this whole thing is a great(not) idea. Unfortunately Sunrise is not Gainax, otherwise, it would be turned into a comic book already.

[Nobodyman9]

Well, my point is: if Lelouch did create this kind of world after asking to god:

Kallen would be the tsundere one, like Asuka
C.C would be the girl that got a lot of secrets and it's the most famous one, like Rei
Shirley would be the charming who clearly shows that she likes Lelouch, like Kaworu.

It's more in the aspects of personality, not "Shirley will be a guy!" we already have Suzaku for this, hehe.

In fact, this whole thing is a great(not) idea. Unfortunately Sunrise is not Gainax, otherwise, it would be turned into a comic book already.
Hmm, I guess I see your point. Still, whenever you associate anything with Kaworu it's just...*shudders* (bad bad yaoi images)

I'd like to think of Asuka being Kallen and Shirley combined together (okay, yeah, that's pretty messed up :heh:)

[yvj]

I'd like to think of Asuka being Kallen and Shirley combined together (okay, yeah, that's pretty messed up :heh:)

Interesting situation. Now I realize Kallen fans want all Kallen and Shirley fans want all Shirley. But if they were to get mixed and you had no choice.

Case A: Shirley's looks and Kallen's personality


Case B: Kallen's looks and Shirley's personality.


Which do you choose?

[Nobodyman9]

^Uh...B.......obviously? I mean, of course because Kallen has a smokin' hot body. Or, uh, here's a 3rd option: it could be like some weird physical and mental hybrid of the two (yeah, that's the messed up part)

[Kid Ying]

It's kind of weird to imagine Kallen having Shirley's personality. I simply can't, hehe. I even tried to see in my mind Kallen saying "Lulu" with that sweet voice... But i can't. It's crazy.

The strange part is that i can imagine Shirley being a kmf pilot and kicking some ass. :heh:

[yvj]

^Uh...B.......obviously? I mean, of course because Kallen has a smokin' hot body. Or, uh, here's a 3rd option: it could be like some weird physical and mental hybrid of the two (yeah, that's the messed up part)

I'm not so sure it's completely obvious. Maybe there will be differing opinions.

[Nobodyman9]

I'm not so sure it's completely obvious. Maybe there will be differing opinions.
Well, that's true. To be perfectly honest, it is kind of a tough call. But for me, I mean, I loved Shirley's personality and the role she played, hence why I wanted her to get with Lelouch, but I also thought she was quite cute and physically attractive in her own right. But if I had to sacrifice one...well, if it was her body in exchange for Kallen's sexy hawt one...yeah, I think so.

[incorrupts]

Interesting situation. Now I realize Kallen fans want all Kallen and Shirley fans want all Shirley. But if they were to get mixed and you had no choice.

Case A: Shirley's looks and Kallen's personality


Case B: Kallen's looks and Shirley's personality.


Which do you choose?

Case C : Kallen's looks and Guren persona. Ultimate PAWN. 8D

[Nina Einstein]

Nina is an amazing character. She is very intelligent and smart, being a scientist later in the series. :)

[snowdevil_crow]

<3 I fracking love Nina, nice to see someone else that does, too! :)

[bladeofdarkness]

too bad its a troll :heh:

[incorrupts]

Nina is an amazing character. She is very intelligent and smart, being a scientist later in the series. :)

Same with Lloyd then.

[snowdevil_crow]

too bad its a troll :heh:


DDDD: Yeah, I saw their other post in a different thread and went... okay then. >_> T_T

[Nobodyman9]

DDDD: Yeah, I saw their other post in a different thread and went... okay then. >_> T_T
Let me guess, the Request Thread? I'm not sure what this person's game is, but you'd have to be pretty much blind to not realize that Nina is one of the most hated characters on the show.

[snowdevil_crow]

I know she is... just... I have found some other fans. A few. Very few. ;_;

I... had hope....

[Nobodyman9]

I know she is... just... I have found some other fans. A few. Very few. ;_;

I... had hope....
Hey hey, relax. It's okay, it's okay. Nina, I mean, she's not......terrible. I mean, to an extent I think she learned that what she was doing was bad, and she certainly at least got a reality check when the FLEIJA went off. Well, I'm not gonna lie and say I love her character, but I do think she played an important role in the series.

[snowdevil_crow]

Yeah, I dunno. I think she's mostly a very unlikeable character, but I found myself feeling sorry for her a lot of the time. And I loved her in season one, despite her xenophobia --- I felt so bad for her, shy and quiet and everything. I don't blame people for generally not liking her very much, though. ^^

[Nobodyman9]

Yeah, I dunno. I think she's mostly a very unlikeable character, but I found myself feeling sorry for her a lot of the time. And I loved her in season one, despite her xenophobia --- I felt so bad for her, shy and quiet and everything. I don't blame people for generally not liking her very much, though. ^^
Well, that's just it. I mean, if it wasn't for the xenophobia and the semi-psychosis (hell, I don't even mind that she's a lesbian) I think I could have liked her quite a bit.

[snowdevil_crow]

Yeah. :/

I thought her relationship with Milly was sweet, though. I have a few plotbunnies regarding them... I hope she found peace with her in the end. ;_;

[Nobodyman9]

Yeah well, I think her and the whole Student Council in general had a pretty good relationship. And from the looks of PD 9 I'd say they all made their peace with each other in the end.

BTW, what's a plotbunny?

[snowdevil_crow]

Oh, it's just... like, an idea for a story, basically. I dunno where the term came from. :S

[Nobodyman9]

Oh, it's just... like, an idea for a story, basically. I dunno where the term came from. :S
Ah, okay. I thought so, given the context in which you used it. I have a few plotbunnies of my own, though I'm not sure any of them will come to life.

[snowdevil_crow]

Yeah, me neither. *has enough projects to work on already* DDD:

[Gordy Lechance]

<3 I fracking love Nina, nice to see someone else that does, too! :)

Remember to wipe the table with alcohol if you're not wearing underpants: you don't know where that racist bitch has been. :p

[AutisticOtakuGirl]

If you've seen some of my posts on other threads on this site, I'm sure you figured out my favorite character is obviously Lelouch/Zero. I wouldn't care if he ended up becoming a villain, I'm with Lelouch all the way. Of course, the fact that I have a very obsessive crush/infatuation with him would be the main reason.

As far as the whole "everyone hates Suzaku" thing, I actually don't really hate him as much as I just don't like him. The thing I would dislike him for the most is capturing Lelouch and bringing him to the Emperor. Not to mention when it comes down to brawn, Lelouch is very lacking and weak in that. He couldn't handle a one on one fight with Suzaku. So at the end of season one when he faced Suzaku in the cave, poor Lelouch didn't stand a chance against him in that situation. When it comes down to it, Lelouch's strength is his intellect and strategic skills, but when it comes to physical strength Lelouch is pretty much helpless. I'm a lot like he is. Physically I'm very weak, and have very low stamina. I get tired without much effort and when it comes to climbing up stairs, I so fail.

If there's one character I do hate, and hate the most, it would be Mao, who I'm surprised wasn't mentioned at the beginning of this thread with the other characters. Of course he didn't stay in the series long, mostly only three episodes, but I say good riddance. The reasons I hate him most are because (1) He caused Lelouch more trouble than anyone else. Not to mention getting sweet, innocent Nunnally involved. (2) Because his geass allows him to read minds, he uses that to mercilessly torment and confuse others. He caused Shirley much guilt, making her feel like she's a bad person, which she definitely is not. He causes Lelouch to panic and makes it nearly impossible for him to figure out ways out of situations Mao puts him in. He uses Suzaku's own dark secret against him. He mentally torments and traumatizes Suzaku. He's just like a persons inner demons, using their own thoughts against them, and causing them inner turmoil. I myself suffer greatly from inner turmoil and depression. So that's why I really hate Mao.

[Orga777]

As far as the whole "everyone hates Suzaku" thing, I actually don't really hate him as much as I just don't like him. The thing I would dislike him for the most is capturing Lelouch and bringing him to the Emperor.

Of course, because, you know, Suzaku wasn't TOTALLY justified there at all. XD
Lelouch was lucky that was ALL Suzaku did... He could have just planted a bullet between his eyes after all. ;)

[snowdevil_crow]

I heard somewhere that the staff actually had a bit of a problem on that point --- they were like "okay, Suzaku enters the cave, shoots of Lelouch's mask, Lelouch acts like a dick... why doesn't Suzaku just shoot him right then and there?" --- which led to the sakuradite bomb thing.

[yvj]

Of course, because, you know, Suzaku wasn't TOTALLY justified there at all. XD
Lelouch was lucky that was ALL Suzaku did... He could have just planted a bullet between his eyes after all. ;)

Taking him to the emperor might have been the high road to what he could have done instead.

[azul120]

Of course, because, you know, Suzaku wasn't TOTALLY justified there at all. XD
Lelouch was lucky that was ALL Suzaku did... He could have just planted a bullet between his eyes after all. ;)

True, but at the same time, if you watched Stage 23.95, Suzaku also considered himself responsible for Lelouch becoming Zero, when he killed his father Genbu, thereby being responsible for Japan being taken over by Britannia.

Taking him to the emperor might have been the high road to what he could have done instead.

It was, though it was still low given that he sold Lelouch out to the very person responsible for how Lelouch was and what he was fighting against, not to mention the man responsible for the occupation of Japan. It was the greater of two evils.

[Jekyl]

True, but at the same time, if you watched Stage 23.95, Suzaku also considered himself responsible for Lelouch becoming Zero, when he killed his father Genbu, thereby being responsible for Japan being taken over by Britannia.

It was, though it was still low given that he sold Lelouch out to the very person responsible for how Lelouch was and what he was fighting against, not to mention the man responsible for the occupation of Japan. It was the greater of two evils.
No one responsible for what lelouch had became as much as lelouch himself. Maybe suzaku share the guilt in it (just _maybe_ because i wouldn't trust someone with such a low self-esteem in his judgement about himself). It doesn't justify lelouch though and doesn't mean he shouldn't have been stopped.

About occupation of Japan - at that point it wasn't the worst of two options, the seсond of which is to be annihilated.

[morbosfist]

No one responsible for what lelouch had became as much as lelouch himself. Maybe suzaku share the guilt in it (just _maybe_ because i wouldn't trust someone with such a low self-esteem in his judgement about himself). It doesn't justify lelouch though for the little genocide he'd maked up and doesn't mean he shouldn't have been stopped.

About occupation of Japan - at that point it wasn't the worst of two options, the seсond of which is to be annihilated.Lelouch's genocide wasn't purposeful, you do realize?

You're talking about an entirely different thing with Japan's occupation. Suzaku killed his father to stop the fighting, but turning Lelouch over to the Emperor is helping the greater of two evils and making Japan even worse off.

[azul120]

That, and the fact that Charles was the one responsible for the rest of the world getting occupied. Moreover, as Jekyl seemed to overlook in my last post, Charles was the one who originally turned his back on Lelouch when the latter confronted him about Marianne's death and Nunnally's crippling, only to be told he was "dead" and that Nunnally was disposable, and was sent along with Nunnally to Japan as political tools, not long before Japan was occupied, which was what made Lelouch choose his course of action (and not unjustified either; he hated Britannia's policies). And yet Suzaku enabled that very same person responsible to stick the dagger through Lelouch's back even further by erasing those memories of his that defined who he was, and take away Nunnally from him and use her as a pawn against him.

[Jekyl]

Lelouch's genocide wasn't purposeful, you do realize?

You're talking about an entirely different thing with Japan's occupation. Suzaku killed his father to stop the fighting, but turning Lelouch over to the Emperor is helping the greater of two evils and making Japan even worse off.
It was purposeful in suzaku's eyes. Considering what he'd been told about geass and what he'd seen and experienced himself it's only natural he blamed lelouch. And why than it was 'low' to stop him?

The part about occupation referd to
thereby being responsible for Japan being taken over by Britannia.
Stop the fight was the best decision at that point so there is no 'responsibility' to talk about.

Suzaku thought that helping Britannia and trying to rich power 'from within' is a better way for him and japan, that it would cost less sacrifice, lelouch thought otherwise. This is the little disagreement in methods they has. And it wasn't stated who was right and who was wrong 'cause situation changed completely in R2 ep20.

azul120, yes charles was evil and treated lelouch bad and suzaku didn't give a shit about it. Oh - and he was just about to kill lelouch himself not long before, do you remember?

[morbosfist]

It was purposeful in suzaku's eyes. Considering what he'd been told about geass and what he'd seen and experienced himself it's only natural he blamed lelouch. And why than it was 'low' to stop him?It wasn't "low" to stop him, it was low to sell Lelouch out to the man responsible for Japan's current condition, which in turn he is directly responsible for, in the quest for a power he should know full-well he will never attain. Furthermore, everything he does past that point is not excused by the original act. Suzaku betrayed his beliefs at that moment, and really never went back despite his hypocritical claims.

Stop the fight was the best decision at that point so there is no 'responsibility' to talk about.Stopping the fight by killing his father was a selfish decision borne of his hatred of violence. He didn't comprehend anything about the larger political climate.

Suzaku thought that helping Britannia and trying to rich power 'from within' is a better way for him and japan, that it would cost less sacrifice, lelouch thought otherwise. This is the little disagreement in methods they has. And it wasn't stated who was right and who was wrong 'cause situation changed completely in R2 ep20.Suzaku's way would never have worked, not as long as Charles was Emperor. It would have never even have started if it weren't for Lelouch's rebellion. Suzaku never accomplishes anything. He merely expects to be accommodated because he's obedient. Only after the first season does he even gain half a plan to reach his goals, and it's still a stupid one.

azul120, yes charles was evil and treated lelouch bad and suzaku didn't give a shit about it. Oh - and he was just about to kill lelouch himself not long before, do you remember?But he didn't. He sunk even lower and made Lelouch suffer, thereby making Japan suffer, out of revenge. Then he made many more countries suffer by conquering them in the name of Britannia.

[azul120]

Yet again, what morbosfist said. (He keeps getting back before I do.) Not to mention that Suzaku very well should have given a shit, as you put it, because he was the very person Lelouch and Nunnally were sent to live with after Charles had exiled them. And back when they arrived, Suzaku infact hated everything Britannia stood for and wanted nothing to do with anyone from there, let alone royalty, and treated Lelouch like dirt as a result until he really got to know him, after which they became best friends. Suzaku very clearly knew what Lelouch had been through, and still chose Charles, the man responsible, over him. Suzaku did have his reasons to loathe Lelouch at the end of season 1, real and perceived, and yet those still weren't ample justification behind what he ultimately did.

[snowdevil_crow]

I think Kanon was... gay. Yeah. Rolo was apparently not supposed to have those implications around his character, but the staff admitted (perhaps jokingly?) that... he really does seem to have them.

Also, yvj, that's kind of an offensively stereotyping comment... :/

[yvj]

Also, yvj, that's kind of an offensively stereotyping comment... :/

Edit: Which comment did you find offensive? Sigh took it down to save myself the trouble.

1) You should have been at the pride parade where people acted normally with pride. I was there I saw it.

Honestly I found the more extreme acts chuckle worthy. But I also laugh stuff at stuff like two girls one cup. so yes I'm immature.

2) That song was played that weekend and is a favorite of my gay friends. For camp value.


3) I like the song


4) Yaoi fan pics I didn't make them.


5) Bruno comes out this summer. I'll be watching.

[azul120]

There always was a whole lot of sibcon though in CG, so Rolo's level of attachment, especially given his level of instability, was never much of a surprise.

[Nogitsune]

I kind of agree with Jekyl concerning the "guilt" thing.
Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku started out wanting to hurt the other, and even though they did it anway, I wouldn't say that any of what Lelouch did is really Suzaku's fault. But I also think the same is true the other way around.
As far as I'm concerned, people should take responsibility for their actions. I never wanted either Lelouch or Suzaku to die a slow, gruesome death for what they did, but if we want to play the blame game again, I'd say it's either those two themselves or the nun. Or Charles, because someone who can kick the puppy like he did deserves to be at fault.
You can always blame someone else, to some degree. People (and anime characters) usually don't wake up one morning wanting to kill other people. Hell, I could even try to blame Lelouch for Clovis becoming a bastard because he didn't return to Britannia after the invasion of Japan.
In the end, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[azul120]

I kind of agree with Jekyl concerning the "guilt" thing.
Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku started out wanting to hurt the other, and even though they did it anway, I wouldn't say that any of what Lelouch did is really Suzaku's fault. But I also think the same is true the other way around.

Suzaku killing his father was more the indirect cause to what was arguably the straw that broke the camel's back, that is, if it hadn't been broken already. Lelouch already hated Britannia and his father well enough.

As far as I'm concerned, people should take responsibility for their actions. I never wanted either Lelouch or Suzaku to die a slow, gruesome death for what they did, but if we want to play the blame game again, I'd say it's either those two themselves or the nun.

The difference is that in the end they realized that they were both at fault for various things and took responsibility for their own actions, as well as those of other people who were also at fault. Though admittedly not in the most prudent way possible.

Or Charles, because someone who can kick the puppy like he did deserves to be at fault.

Yeah. Just cut out the middlemen, willing or otherwise, and go straight for the source.

You can always blame someone else, to some degree. People (and anime characters) usually don't wake up one morning wanting to kill other people. Hell, I could even try to blame Lelouch for Clovis becoming a bastard because he didn't return to Britannia after the invasion of Japan.
In the end, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The thing is, there were people either just as much or even more at fault than Lelouch and Suzaku, and were so willingly to boot. At least Lelouch and Suzaku wanted to change things, though they were frequently deterred by selfishness, naivete, and/or emotional outbursts.

And lest we forget, Lelouch didn't return to the homeland because he feared he and Nunnally would be used as pawns again, and more importantly that he had gotten a good, hard look at Britannia's dark side and not only wanted nothing more to do with it, but also saw it as a scourge to the world and swore to destroy it.

[Jekyl]

I terribly sorry for being party killer, but I had to.

Stopping the fight by killing his father was a selfish decision borne of his hatred of violence. He didn't comprehend anything about the larger political climate.
For God's sake, he welcomed Lelouch in Japan with spin kick and then threaten unarmed boy with shinai, he clearly didn't mind some violence in the past. It's hard to judge about his reasons to kill dad, but it wasn't (non-existing at that moment) blind hatred toward violence.
And it was stated in the anime that at that moment Britannia had very powerful army with their KMF's and pilots and all that Japan didn't, so maybe it wasn't really so stupid and selfish of Suzaku to want to stop pointless war?
Suzaku's way would never have worked, not as long as Charles was Emperor. It would have never even have started if it weren't for Lelouch's rebellion. Suzaku never accomplishes anything. He merely expects to be accommodated because he's obedient. Only after the first season does he even gain half a plan to reach his goals, and it's still a stupid one.
So... It's stupid because would never have worked as long as Charles is emperor, but it had worked (thanks to Lelouch and his rebellion, thought it's not like to rise rebellion is something exclusively for Lelouch), but it's stupid nevertheless.
I can't get your point, honestly.
It wasn't "low" to stop him, it was low to sell Lelouch out to the man responsible for Japan's current condition, which in turn he is directly responsible for, in the quest for a power he should know full-well he will never attain. Furthermore, everything he does past that point is not excused by the original act. Suzaku betrayed his beliefs at that moment, and really never went back despite his hypocritical claims.

But he didn't. He sunk even lower and made Lelouch suffer, thereby making Japan suffer, out of revenge. Then he made many more countries suffer by conquering them in the name of Britannia.
Besides revenge there are such a things like duty and sense of justice (which even people who happened to do (a lot of) injustice in their life is not banned from) and the mere need to stop guy who initiate a mass murder in the sake of his rebellion and then fail with it terribly from another try, you know? /end of off top (kind of)
If he didn't kill Lelouch it doesn't mean he get ride of this idea actually. Suzaku didn't know at that moment that Charles has his own Geass, so he could safely assume that Lelouch would be judged and executed for his deeds in homeland. The same thing he originally planed to do with Zero, only with more profit for his plans.
Charles's responsibility for many crimes makes him unpleasant person to make a deal, especially for someone who had suffered from it. But why it is low to put your pride aside for the good purposes?
And he gained some power through it, by the way.
Not to mention that Suzaku very well should have given a shit, as you put it, because he was the very person Lelouch and Nunnally were sent to live with after Charles had exiled them.
Lelouch he once knew was kind person who treasured his sister and her happiness like nothing in the world. Zero just killed his other sister in cold blood. Lelouch kind of turned to be complete opposite of himself. And with this he’d destroyed almost everything Suzaku attained and is out to do it once more anytime. There should be some limit for traumatic past excuses.
And back when they arrived, Suzaku infact hated everything Britannia stood for and wanted nothing to do with anyone from there, let alone royalty, and treated Lelouch like dirt as a result until he really got to know him, after which they became best friends. Suzaku very clearly knew what Lelouch had been through, and still chose Charles, the man responsible, over him. Suzaku did have his reasons to loathe Lelouch at the end of season 1, real and perceived, and yet those still weren't ample justification behind what he ultimately did.
So for the past 8 years he changed his point of view from childish (because to think that Britannia is Empire of Evil and having business with it is a no-no because it’s ruled by terrible dad of Lelouch is stupid, egocentric though excusable at certain age way of thinking) to more adult, realistic and open minded one. Is it not allowed to Suzaku?

[Nogitsune]

I terribly sorry for being party killer, but I had to.

If your definition of killing a party is participating in an entertaining discussion, then there's really no need to be sorry. ;P

For God's sake, he welcomed Lelouch in Japan with spin kick and then threaten unarmed boy with shinai, he clearly didn't mind some violence in the past. It's hard to judge about his reasons to kill dad, but it wasn't (non-existing at that moment) blind hatred toward violence.
And it was stated in the anime that at that moment Britannia had very powerful army with their KMF's and pilots and all that Japan didn't, so maybe it wasn't really so stupid and selfish of Suzaku to want to stop pointless war?

Agreed.
Well, I think it was still stupid, and also a bit selfish... but then again, everything a human does can be viewed as selfish. It seems Suzaku was mostly acting on impulse there, and I think you can't really blame a ten year old for doing that.
Otherwise, you should also consider letting children vote and sign contracts.

If he didn't kill Lelouch it doesn't mean he get ride of this idea actually. Suzaku didn't know at that moment that Charles has his own Geass, so he could safely assume that Lelouch would be judged and executed for his deeds in homeland. The same thing he originally planed to do with Zero, only with more profit for his plans.

Also agreed.

Charles's responsibility for many crimes makes him unpleasant person to make a deal, especially for someone who had suffered from it. But why it is low to put your pride aside for the good purposes?
And he gained some power through it, by the way.

I agree... kind of.
I think Suzaku threw away his pride long ago (and he certainly had noble intentions), but I also think it wasn't such a good idea in his case, and what he did do to Lelouch wasn't nice. At all.
It would have bee more merciful to kill him than send him to be executed by the man he hated so much. But yeah, Suzaku had his reasons as much as Lelouch had.

Lelouch he once knew was kind person who treasured his sister and her happiness like nothing in the world. Zero just killed his other sister in cold blood. Lelouch kind of turned to be complete opposite of himself. And with this he’d destroyed almost everything Suzaku attained and is out to do it once more anytime. There should be some limit for traumatic past excuses.

From Suzaku's point of view, you're right.
Otherwise, I disagree with the "cold blood" part and Lelouch becoming the complete opposite of himself.

So for the past 8 years he changed his point of view from childish (because to think that Britannia is Empire of Evil and having business with it is a no-no because it’s ruled by terrible dad of Lelouch is stupid, egocentric though excusable at certain age way of thinking) to more adult, realistic and open minded one. Is it not allowed to Suzaku?

Signed.
Lelouch had his reasons for not returning to Britannia, but he also completely disregarded his siblings out of anger and hatred, blaming them for his mother's death without any real evidence. Clovis would have supported him and his sister, and so would Cornelia, Euphie and probably some others (maybe even Schneizel, because he really had no valid reason not to and a powerful ally to gain).
Hell, Clovis might even have helped Lelouch staying hidden, because the guy seemed to care a lot more about his little brother than about anything else.
[Edit: Not to mention Lelouch had a much better chance at changing Britannia(/the world) by doing it from within, because unlike Suzaku, he was a prince. And without his Geass, I doubt he would have gotten this far with his rebellion.]

[morbosfist]

For God's sake, he welcomed Lelouch in Japan with spin kick and then threaten unarmed boy with shinai, he clearly didn't mind some violence in the past. It's hard to judge about his reasons to kill dad, but it wasn't (non-existing at that moment) blind hatred toward violence.Except Suzaku himself confirms that this is the exact reason he did it, at multiple points. All he saw was people killing one another and it mortified him, so by his logic people should do whatever it takes, no matter how it would impact their lives, to stop it. That is why he killed his father.

And it was stated in the anime that at that moment Britannia had very powerful army with their KMF's and pilots and all that Japan didn't, so maybe it wasn't really so stupid and selfish of Suzaku to want to stop pointless war?Suzaku wasn't thinking about this, so the point doesn't work. You can't treat Suzaku like the omniscient viewer. He only knew that people were dying and he wanted it to stop.

So... It's stupid because would never have worked as long as Charles is emperor, but it had worked (thanks to Lelouch and his rebellion, thought it's not like to rise rebellion is something exclusively for Lelouch), but it's stupid nevertheless.
I can't get your point, honestly.Then you're not really trying too hard. Suzaku's entire goal, well before Lelouch ever got started, was following the rules to change things. This would never have worked before he had Lelouch to leech off of, and wasn't working after that, either. This reaches its apex in Turn 20, where Suzaku is told, in no uncertain terms, that a backstabber like him would never be trusted enough to get anywhere.

So no, Suzaku's plan never had a chance, not before Lelouch, not after Lelouch, and nowhere in-between. He was just using it as an excuse to die.

Besides revenge there are such a things like duty and sense of justice (which even people who happened to do (a lot of) injustice in their life is not banned from) and the mere need to stop guy who initiate a mass murder in the sake of his rebellion and then fail with it terribly from another try, you know? /end of off top (kind of)
If he didn't kill Lelouch it doesn't mean he get ride of this idea actually. Suzaku didn't know at that moment that Charles has his own Geass, so he could safely assume that Lelouch would be judged and executed for his deeds in homeland. The same thing he originally planed to do with Zero, only with more profit for his plans.
Charles's responsibility for many crimes makes him unpleasant person to make a deal, especially for someone who had suffered from it. But why it is low to put your pride aside for the good purposes?
And he gained some power through it, by the way.Your last bit is my exact point. He sold out Lelouch to the man responsible for virtually all the current injustice in the world solely for power. That's all Suzaku cares about. He doesn't care who he hurts along the way, how many lives he is indirectly or directly responsible for ending, or how many people are crushed beneath Britannia's boot. As long as he gets what he wants, he's justified in what he does. Lelouch is arguably similar in many ways, but the key difference is that he actually cares about the entire world, not just a small sliver of it, and recognizes his own hypocrisy.

Lelouch started a revolution to free Japan, and if it wasn't for Suzaku would have had a much better chance at succeeding. Suzaku, solely for revenge, made the lives of the Japanese even worse, and continues to do nothing while they suffer.

Lelouch he once knew was kind person who treasured his sister and her happiness like nothing in the world. Zero just killed his other sister in cold blood. Lelouch kind of turned to be complete opposite of himself. And with this he’d destroyed almost everything Suzaku attained and is out to do it once more anytime. There should be some limit for traumatic past excuses.Even from Suzaku's point of view, which I must stres since the following line is written from it, this isn't Lelouch contradicting himself. He only cares about Nunnally, and Euphie's fair game because she got in the way. He didn't destroy anything Suzaku attained, because the SAZ was not Suzaku's idea (Nunnally is more responsible than anyone). It just boils down to "you killed my girlfriend."

So for the past 8 years he changed his point of view from childish (because to think that Britannia is Empire of Evil and having business with it is a no-no because it’s ruled by terrible dad of Lelouch is stupid, egocentric though excusable at certain age way of thinking) to more adult, realistic and open minded one. Is it not allowed to Suzaku?He only grows up after he kills 35 million people and watches God kill Charlie. He's allowed to grow up, but he doesn't do it at any point before the nuke.

[Jekyl]

From Suzaku's point of view, you're right.
Otherwise, I disagree with the "cold blood" part and Lelouch becoming the complete opposite of himself.
Yes, exactly, I mean it might look like that from his point of view.
Lelouch turned to be opposite of man Suzaku used to know, though it was just part of Lelouch he couldn’t understand at that point. As well as Lelouch couldn’t understand Suzaku’s reasons even when he learned about patricide thing. As a result they acted cruel on each other, but, well, it was just inevitable.

[morbosfist]

As well as Lelouch couldn’t understand Suzaku’s reasons even when he learned about patricide thing.Lelouch understood Suzaku's reasons, he just didn't buy into his self-satisfying BS, same as Kallen.

[incorrupts]

Lelouch understood Suzaku's reasons, he just didn't buy into his self-satisfying BS, same as Kallen.

Basically, yes in a way.
Actually, Suzaku might have had a better heart than Lelouch, as in being softer and gentler. But, this is no way to change the world. You cannot dedicate yourself to a rotten system, and expect to change it from within. That is worse than being naive.
Lelouch and Kallen, did understand, that for a change to come, blood shall be spilled, but this will bring a new era. Suzaku, did not want to spill blood and yet, his hands were stained as well, seeing as Britannia was a huge killing prick machine. And he was a tool of that. //lol, ironically enough, those three charas are my fav of Geass.

[azul120]

Charles's responsibility for many crimes makes him unpleasant person to make a deal, especially for someone who had suffered from it. But why it is low to put your pride aside for the good purposes?
And he gained some power through it, by the way.

Those were the exact wrong reasons to do it, let alone the fact that Suzaku had allowed the man responsible to deepen the damage in both respects: betraying his son Lelouch, who started the rebellion for that among other reasons and ended up the person Suzaku saw at that moment as a result, and allowing Japan to be downgraded into a worse state as an "example". In short, illogical at best, and hypocritical at worst. Suzaku would have likely gained more if he teamed up with Lelouch against Charles. Which highlights the irony in the whole pride thing, because Suzaku was too proud to accept Lelouch's truce in the first place, yet didn't mind bowing to public enemy #1.

As for the power Suzaku gained from that, see the bottom of my post.

Lelouch had his reasons for not returning to Britannia, but he also completely disregarded his siblings out of anger and hatred, blaming them for his mother's death without any real evidence. Clovis would have supported him and his sister, and so would Cornelia, Euphie and probably some others (maybe even Schneizel, because he really had no valid reason not to and a powerful ally to gain).
Hell, Clovis might even have helped Lelouch staying hidden, because the guy seemed to care a lot more about his little brother than about anything else.
[Edit: Not to mention Lelouch had a much better chance at changing Britannia(/the world) by doing it from within, because unlike Suzaku, he was a prince. And without his Geass, I doubt he would have gotten this far with his rebellion.]

You're forgetting that Lelouch already tried going by the system at age 10 when he confronted Charles about why seemingly nothing was done about the attack that killed his mother Marianne and crippled his sister Nunnally. The end result? Charles told him he and Nunnally were worth nothing, and that very system was predicated on struggles for the royal throne, which disgusted Lelouch to the point where he relinquished his part in the royal family. And then of course Lelouch and Nunnally being sent to Japan as political pawns, followed by the occupation and colonization of Japan on part of Britannia which happened with no apparent concern for their well being, which led Lelouch to hide, along with Nunnally, under the Ashfords' care in order to avoid being used as pawns by either side.

Anyways, regarding his siblings, it wasn't only about the Marianne thing, but the oppressive and corrupt face of Britannia that had also spit on Lelouch. I won't disagree about Clovis, and especially Euphemia (who he was on the verge of a breakthrough with right before his Geass screwed everything up), but Cornelia and Schneizel? They in their own ways represented what he hated about Britannia. Heck, Cornelia already scolded Euphie of all people for trying to change the system with the whole Suzaku knighting thing clearly out of her hatred of Numbers resulting from her stalwart belief in the Social Darwinist system, so would she be willing to see eye to eye with Lelouch? I think not. (And that's even without mentioning her actions and demeanor on the battlefield.)

As for Lelouch's plan getting any traction with or without Geass, it has been noted that it definitely jumpstarted things by several years. Lelouch had simply been waiting until he was ready, and his Geass definitely accelerated the process.

Except Suzaku himself confirms that this is the exact reason he did it, at multiple points. All he saw was people killing one another and it mortified him, so by his logic people should do whatever it takes, no matter how it would impact their lives, to stop it. That is why he killed his father.

Exactly. The opening monologue in Turn 20 is one of those points.

So no, Suzaku's plan never had a chance, not before Lelouch, not after Lelouch, and nowhere in-between. He was just using it as an excuse to die.

Exactly. Heck, one of the reasons Lelouch wanted to make him Nunnally's knight was to give Suzaku a reason to live according to Lelouch, suggesting the latter already noted Suzaku's inner masochism.

Even from Suzaku's point of view, which I must stres since the following line is written from it, this isn't Lelouch contradicting himself. He only cares about Nunnally, and Euphie's fair game because she got in the way. He didn't destroy anything Suzaku attained, because the SAZ was not Suzaku's idea (Nunnally is more responsible than anyone). It just boils down to "you killed my girlfriend."

To say Lelouch only cared for Nunnally and that Euphie got in the way isn't entirely accurate. He did try to subvert the SAZ, which on the whole was a mere concession from Britannia albeit a generous one for all who were part of it, by intending to Geass her into shooting him, but then he realized how serious she was about the plan. The Geass activating permanently at the wrong time is what really got in the way, and Lelouch was forced to kill her in order to keep her from killing anymore Japanese. Other than that, you're right.

Anyways, it's also important to note that the end result of Suzaku's act in becoming a Knight of Rounds, instead of giving him the power he needed, had all but made a full blown quisling out of him. The Knights of Rounds, barring Bismarck Waldstein, weren't known for being good samaritans. (And that was looking past Bismarck's loyalty to and shared beliefs with Charles.) In spite of his intentions, Suzaku ended up with the nickname "White Death". You do the math. It took a stunt on Lelouch's part with the Million Zero Miracle to trick Suzaku into really doing something noble once again.

[Nogitsune]

You're forgetting that Lelouch already tried going by the system at age 10 when he confronted Charles about why seemingly nothing was done about the attack that killed his mother Marianne and crippled his sister Nunnally. The end result? Charles told him he and Nunnally were worth nothing, and that very system was predicated on struggles for the royal throne, which disgusted Lelouch to the point where he relinquished his part in the royal family. And then of course Lelouch and Nunnally being sent to Japan as political pawns, followed by the occupation and colonization of Japan on part of Britannia which happened with no apparent concern for their well being, which led Lelouch to hide, along with Nunnally, under the Ashfords' care in order to avoid being used as pawns by either side.

That's like saying Suzaku already tried to change the system through violence and learned that it would only bring suffering.
The conclusion Lelouch came to as a child is understandable, but that still doesn't make it right or any less egocentric. His father threw them away, so everyone at the court has to be the same, and no one there might still be ready to support them - that's what Lelouch thought. He saw everyone there as his enemy, even those who still loved him.
Also, Lelouch tried to confront his father incredibly openly. That doesn't mean he couldn't have done it a bit more like Schneizel and worked against him in a more subtle way.

Anyways, regarding his siblings, it wasn't only about the Marianne thing, but the oppressive and corrupt face of Britannia that had also spit on Lelouch. I won't disagree about Clovis, and especially Euphemia (who he was on the verge of a breakthrough with right before his Geass screwed everything up), but Cornelia and Schneizel? They in their own ways represented what he hated about Britannia. Heck, Cornelia already scolded Euphie of all people for trying to change the system with the whole Suzaku knighting thing clearly out of her hatred of Numbers resulting from her stalwart belief in the Social Darwinist system, so would she be willing to see eye to eye with Lelouch? I think not. (And that's even without mentioning her actions and demeanor on the battlefield.)

Sure, Cornelia probably wouldn't have started a rebellion with Lelouch, but she would still have supported him and Nunally in the court, as her siblings. Also, no one knows if he couldn't have convinced her - she never took Euphie very seriously when it came to politics; Lelouch, on the other hand, could have tried to reasson with her, especially as Marianne's son.
And Schneizel never really agreed with Charles' ideals. He didn't care enough to do anything about them in the beginning, but I don't see why he shouldn't have supported Lelouch in one way or another, and later on treated him as a potential ally.
Lelouch didn't know Schneizel would create Damocles eventually, and Schneizel didn't know Lelouch would oppose it.

As for Lelouch's plan getting any traction with or without Geass, it has been noted that it definitely jumpstarted things by several years. Lelouch had simply been waiting until he was ready, and his Geass definitely accelerated the process.

I'm aware of that, but really, how should have Lelouch gotten those results without a Geass? He didn't know he would get that kind of power back then, and without it, he'd probably have had much better chances to change something as a prince.

[Jekyl]

Suzaku wasn't thinking about this, so the point doesn't work. You can't treat Suzaku like the omniscient viewer. He only knew that people were dying and he wanted it to stop.
He wasn’t omniscient viewer, but actually was more or less aware about his father’s political course.
Suzaku's entire goal, well before Lelouch ever got started, was following the rules to change things. This would never have worked before he had Lelouch to leech off of, and wasn't working after that, either. This reaches its apex in Turn 20, where Suzaku is told, in no uncertain terms, that a backstabber like him would never be trusted enough to get anywhere.
The words you make reference to were said by Bismarck, Charles’s most trusted man, his supporter and in a way soul mate. And Charles is known for his burning hatred of lie and never trusted anyone. But against his personal antipathy, Charles made Suzaku KoR and trusted him Area 11, which entails some positive changes.
Nunnally trusted backstabber like him, knowing about his lie. No one dare to object to this backstabber when he allowed 1000 Zero supporters to leave the area, though many had the objections. Schniezel never cared about Suzaku’s moral, until he can bring the results.
Charles can be most powerful man in the world, but he is not all power of the world. And well opinion can be changed.
So no, Suzaku's plan never had a chance, not before Lelouch, not after Lelouch, and nowhere in-between. He was just using it as an excuse to die.

Your last bit is my exact point. He sold out Lelouch to the man responsible for virtually all the current injustice in the world solely for power. That's all Suzaku cares about. He doesn't care who he hurts along the way, how many lives he is indirectly or directly responsible for ending, or how many people are crushed beneath Britannia's boot. As long as he gets what he wants, he's justified in what he does.
Why he needed KoR position then? He already had revenged what he wanted to revenge. And he had more chances to die when he was mere soldier.

Since he disliked unnecessary violence so much, I believe, what he wanted was to save as many lives as he can. If it demands to kill 100 people to save 1000 he accepted it, if it demands to sacrifice his own live he accepted it. Though, yeah, if you would prefer to ignore the whole part about his motivations and aims, Suzaku looks like pretty silly masochist who’d changed his pride for the funky blue cape.
Lelouch is arguably similar in many ways, but the key difference is that he actually cares about the entire world, not just a small sliver of it, and recognizes his own hypocrisy.

Lelouch started a revolution to free Japan, and if it wasn't for Suzaku would have had a much better chance at succeeding. Suzaku, solely for revenge, made the lives of the Japanese even worse, and continues to do nothing while they suffer.
Where it is said that Lelouch care about world (before R2 ep.20)?
He made it clear many times, he wants to revenge himself, his sister and mother’s death and to make Nunnally’s life save and happy. He used revolution, OtBK, the world like tools and had no problem to drop them like he almost did in ep.7.
And how the fact that he recognized his own hypocrisy and continued to act hypocritical makes him better?
Even from Suzaku's point of view, which I must stres since the following line is written from it, this isn't Lelouch contradicting himself. He only cares about Nunnally, and Euphie's fair game because she got in the way.
The key word is ‘only’, I think. When you used to know someone like kind, caring person among the friends and siblings, your perception of him probably would be like of kind, caring person, like, in general, not only here and there.
He didn't destroy anything Suzaku attained, because the SAZ was not Suzaku's idea (Nunnally is more responsible than anyone). It just boils down to "you killed my girlfriend."
The SAZ idea was impossible as long as there was terroristic treat against Britannia and no guarantee that area could be kept in order.
He only grows up after he kills 35 million people and watches God kill Charlie. He's allowed to grow up, but he doesn't do it at any point before the nuke.
If by ‘grow up’ you mean ‘became mentally unstable to the point when you loose yourself and can accept everything’, then - yeah, otherwise - no. And how God killing Charles scene made him to grow up?
When I called him mentally more adult I meant that he was capable to see through hatred that Britannia is not the Empire of Doom.
Lelouch understood Suzaku's reasons, he just didn't buy into his self-satisfying BS, same as Kallen.
Which he demonstrated in his inability to convert Suzaku in Zero’s supporter.
I believe the moment Lelouch really start to understand him is when he learned the true behind his mother’s death and his father’s actions and that all his previous fight was just tilting at windmill, which meant ‘more bloodshed to put meaning in all previous’.

[morbosfist]

He wasn’t omniscient viewer, but actually was more or less aware about his father’s political course.That does not change his motivation. He wanted the fighting to end, that is all. He did not think about the consequences of his actions. He himself admits this.

The words you make reference to were said by Bismarck, Charles’s most trusted man, his supporter and in a way soul mate. And Charles is known for his burning hatred of lie and never trusted anyone. But against his personal antipathy, Charles made Suzaku KoR and trusted him Area 11, which entails some positive changes.
Nunnally trusted backstabber like him, knowing about his lie. No one dare to object to this backstabber when he allowed 1000 Zero supporters to leave the area, though many had the objections. Schniezel never cared about Suzaku’s moral, until he can bring the results.
Charles can be most powerful man in the world, but he is not all power of the world. And well opinion can be changed.You're making things up. Bismarck is Charles' right-hand man, which means he knows how Charles thinks. Charles outright lied to Suzaku about Geass and the Sword of Akasha (the contract only entailed him and V.V. not lying to each other). This nonsense about "trusted him Area 11" is just that. He did not trust him with anything. Suzaku acted on his own.

Nunnally did not trust him, she had to put up with him. She knew he was lying, and called him on it. Schneizel just let Suzaku do what he wanted.

Charles is the most powerful person in Britannia, period. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about this. His word is law. Opinion doesn't change as long as he's in power.

Why he needed KoR position then? He already had revenged what he wanted to revenge. And he had more chances to die when he was mere soldier.

Since he disliked unnecessary violence so much, I believe, what he wanted was to save as many lives as he can. If it demands to kill 100 people to save 1000 he accepted it, if it demands to sacrifice his own live he accepted it. Though, yeah, if you would prefer to ignore the whole part about his motivations and aims, Suzaku looks like pretty silly masochist who’d changed his pride for the funky blue cape.Suzaku only asked for the position so he would feel better about himself. As soon as he gets an excuse (Turn 8 and 18), he'll drop his self-righteous plan for a chance at death.

You're making up the second part. He's not saving lives, in fact as a soldier he willfully participates in the massacre of the Shinjuku Ghetto. There is no way to claim ignorance on this fact. The times he tries to sacrifice his life are solely to make himself feel better. His aims are just an excuse for that goal, because if given the chance his personal atonement means far more to him than Japan does.

Where it is said that Lelouch care about world (before R2 ep.20)?
He made it clear many times, he wants to revenge himself, his sister and mother’s death and to make Nunnally’s life save and happy. He used revolution, OtBK, the world like tools and had no problem to drop them like he almost did in ep.7.
And how the fact that he recognized his own hypocrisy and continued to act hypocritical makes him better?It makes him honest, not deluded. As for making the world a better place, that's Nunnally's entire wish. He cared about the entire world. Suzaku does not.

The key word is ‘only’, I think. When you used to know someone like kind, caring person among the friends and siblings, your perception of him probably would be like of kind, caring person, like, in general, not only here and there.Fair enough.

The SAZ idea was impossible as long as there was terroristic treat against Britannia and no guarantee that area could be kept in order.Making things up again. The SAZ was put in place to derail the terrorists.

If by ‘grow up’ you mean ‘became mentally unstable to the point when you loose yourself and can accept everything’, then - yeah, otherwise - no. And how God killing Charles scene made him to grow up?
When I called him mentally more adult I meant that he was capable to see through hatred that Britannia is not the Empire of Doom.Watching Charile get killed by God was meant as a time marker, not an actual growth experience. Nuking all those people sure as hell made him grow up, because before that point he had a constant stick up his ass about wrong means being meaningless when everything he did served to only make the world progressively worse. That snapped him out of his naive ideals and gave him some much needed perspective.

As for the last part, he didn't grow up at all in that respect. He only bowed to his conquerors out of guilt for killing his father, then because about the most naive guy on the planet to think he had a chance in hell of changing things from within.

Which he demonstrated in his inability to convert Suzaku in Zero’s supporter.
I believe the moment Lelouch really start to understand him is when he learned the true behind his mother’s death and his father’s actions and that all his previous fight was just tilting at windmill, which meant ‘more bloodshed to put meaning in all previous’.Your logic his flawed. His inability to convert Suzaku is because Suzaku is a stubborn idiot. Lelouch accepted Suzaku's way of doing things right after Rolo died, but took his own method anyway because he knows that such a method is self-defeating.

[azul120]

That's like saying Suzaku already tried to change the system through violence and learned that it would only bring suffering.

Which is actually true. Suzaku tried an act of rebellion that backfired on him, and naively thought working within the system would get results. As morbosfist said, Suzaku realized that wasn't working either when he ended up firing off FLEIJA. Frankly though, I'm surprised that he didn't learn any sooner given the barbaric and repressive acts he was an accessory to, especially after becoming a Knight of Rounds.

The conclusion Lelouch came to as a child is understandable, but that still doesn't make it right or any less egocentric. His father threw them away, so everyone at the court has to be the same, and no one there might still be ready to support them - that's what Lelouch thought. He saw everyone there as his enemy, even those who still loved him.

He came to a conclusion based on an entire society's sense of atrocity and repression, and he saw that on an outward front, siblings like Cornelia and Schneizel were no better, even if they still did love him.

Also, Lelouch tried to confront his father incredibly openly. That doesn't mean he couldn't have done it a bit more like Schneizel and worked against him in a more subtle way.

He didn't have the tools needed for accomplishing things as Schneizel was able to. Schneizel was Prime Minister, after all.

Sure, Cornelia probably wouldn't have started a rebellion with Lelouch, but she would still have supported him and Nunally in the court, as her siblings. Also, no one knows if he couldn't have convinced her - she never took Euphie very seriously when it came to politics; Lelouch, on the other hand, could have tried to reasson with her, especially as Marianne's son.

Perhaps. Unfortunately though, Lelouch had since seen Cornelia, who was literally willing to take no prisoners and show no mercy on Numbers, even civilians, in an extremely negative light. How could he expect someone who had become so contrary to what he was up against to see eye to eye with him? Whether or not she took Euphemia seriously was a non-factor. Cornelia was a person who was utterly devoted to the Social Darwinist system of Britannia, and saw Numbers as statistics at best. Literally.

And Schneizel never really agreed with Charles' ideals. He didn't care enough to do anything about them in the beginning, but I don't see why he shouldn't have supported Lelouch in one way or another, and later on treated him as a potential ally.

He didn't care to do anything until it became clear that Charles no longer had any interest in the world. Other than that, Schneizel had his own agendas, and was known for being diplomatic only if Britannia had already scored the larger victory. Lelouch had also known him and his methodologies through their chess matches, and evidently knew he couldn't be trusted.

I'm aware of that, but really, how should have Lelouch gotten those results without a Geass? He didn't know he would get that kind of power back then, and without it, he'd probably have had much better chances to change something as a prince.

You're right about the first part, but Charles treated all of his children like pawns, and knew and made sure that there wasn't anything any of them could do to significantly change things. On top of that, Lelouch knew that he couldn't take the risk of being used as a pawn once again after the country he was in, Japan, was invaded by Britannia itself, demonstrating a flagrant lack of care for him or Nunnally. And of course, he had already been screwed by the system, and very badly, so what would the point be in trusting that same system again? Besides, when Charles rewrote his memories prior to R2, that he was a Britannian prince was among the memories blocked out pretty much suggests that Charles would have likely never been interested in taking him back as royalty under any circumstances.

Where it is said that Lelouch care about world (before R2 ep.20)?

Rewatch season 1, stage 7 for an example.

He made it clear many times, he wants to revenge himself, his sister and mother’s death and to make Nunnally’s life save and happy. He used revolution, OtBK, the world like tools and had no problem to drop them like he almost did in ep.7.

He was just being shortsighted in his vision of a better world up until that point, which focused on Nunnally. During that episode he had a Heroic BSOD which centered on his inability to come to grips with this.

[synaesthetic]

Lelouch used the Black Knights and the Japanese people for his own purposes, true. What always turned R2 into a wallbanger for me was the fact that throughout the entire existence of the Black Knights, they used Lelouch just as much as he used them.

And when Schneizel reveals his [ridiculously circumstantial] "evidence," they get all pissy about being used by Lelouch. After using him, his skills and his intelligence the whole time. What a bunch of hypocrites. Seriously.

I can understand turning against Lelouch after discovering that he was the one who Geassed Euphie (and did not admit that it wasn't intentional). What I can't fathom is why they joined with Schneizel when it was plainly obvious that he was a black-hearted bastard several orders of magnitude worse than Lelouch.

They knew he had FLEIA, they knew he nuked the shit out of Pendragon and killed 200 million people. Even Cornelia turned against him when she found out, and she's dedicated to the Britannian system.

Pretty much the whole of R2's ending was just an enormous copout, including the amazingly cliche and trite Zero Requiem. Like we don't have enough "take on all sins to unite the world" Jesus-wannabe plots.

[azul120]

I can understand turning against Lelouch after discovering that he was the one who Geassed Euphie (and did not admit that it wasn't intentional). What I can't fathom is why they joined with Schneizel when it was plainly obvious that he was a black-hearted bastard several orders of magnitude worse than Lelouch.

Well, Lelouch either completely gave up on life at that point or saw that defending himself against that whole kangaroo court, given that it was Schneizel's "checkmate", a futile battle, and saw that the Black Knights were ready to shoot Kallen down along with him, evidence that they just didn't care. The only sensible thing Lelouch felt he could do was lie to Kallen in order to push her away from him and have her spared from the fate he would have suffered if not for Rolo's intervention.

But yes, their logic was faulty, given that Lelouch was a former Britannian prince, while Schneizel was the most prominent current (though not first in line) prince. Due to his deceptive diplomacy though, I don't think very many of the BKs if any at all knew his true self. Xing-ke was one of the few people who knew how dangerous he was, and he was occupied elsewhere with the UFN, sadly.

Oh, and Ohgi was also at fault for idiocy, not to mention the lion's share of the hypocrisy on part of the Black Knights.

[morbosfist]

But yes, their logic was faulty, given that Lelouch was a former Britannian prince, while Schneizel was the most prominent current (though not first in line) prince. Due to his deceptive diplomacy though, I don't think very many of the BKs if any at all knew his true self. Xing-ke was one of the few people who knew how dangerous he was, and he was occupied elsewhere with the UFN, sadly.I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I would be more inclined to accept that travesty if we'd at least gotten one "What the helll?!" speech out of either Kaguya or Xingke. It wouldn't have taken more than a minute or two to get some good chewing out in. As it stands, they just looked like they were pissed for a minute and let it go come timeskip.

[bladeofdarkness]

to be fair
they DID have a video of lelouch admiting that he had been using them like pawns from the start
this tape includes kallen's attempt to defend him and him laughing in her face and calling her a pawn as well, so if SHE tries to defend him or deny what he said, she'd be treated like she's crazy/geassed
so while the WAY that the rest of the OOBK turned on lelouch may have been poor, to kaguya and xing-ke, they at least had a produced the right results
especially given the time skip

[Betteroffer]

This ignores the issue of WHY in hell's name they would videotape themselves betraying their leader with such shody evidence. They have a video of themselves yelling at him about "Geese" for all anybody knows and sounded hellbent on killing him from the get go.

What if he had tried to reason his way out, backed by the young girl he just broke out of jail, and they still tried to gun him down then and there and showed that to Xing-ke?

What if they had someone take a good listen to the audio for the "Live On" line to Kallen, or cleaned the video up to read his lips for it, if it couldn't be heard? For a video of that level of signifigance, I'd think they'd want to look closely at it (at least Xing-ke would), and Kallen should have tried to bring it up with him at least. I know none of this happened, but there doesn't seem to be a reason why it didn't. If Kallen was so convinced that she needed an answer from Lelouch, then going to Xing-ke would have been her best shot of making sure they'd catch him alive to get it, given that he was intelligent, high ranked in the Order, and more impartial than the Japanese members of the BK.

The tape they did get showed Lelouch demean Kallen, her walk away (implying she wasn't under his control if she could leave him), and him whisper something, to her once she is too far away to do anything to help him. At the least they should try to confirm what it was he said since he survived, since he might have said "Meet me at this point..." or "Go crazy and kill them in their sleep."

If Kallen had sat down with Xing-ke, then they might have at least given Lelouch the benifit of the doubt (not that it would stop him from doing ZR at that point), once everything came back to trusting Ohgi, who was trusting the woman he was banging behind everyone's backs, who in turn had her own walk-in closet full of skeletons.

From this, Kallen or Xing-ke could even accuse Viletta of being the one who grabbed Nunally, making Zero abandon them in the first place. It wouldn't excuse Zero's abandoning them, but it was clearly done to get Zero away fom the BK, so her having a (posibly intentional) part in it would further damage her credibility.

[synaesthetic]

to be fair
they DID have a video of lelouch admiting that he had been using them like pawns from the start
this tape includes kallen's attempt to defend him and him laughing in her face and calling her a pawn as well, so if SHE tries to defend him or deny what he said, she'd be treated like she's crazy/geassed
so while the WAY that the rest of the OOBK turned on lelouch may have been poor, to kaguya and xing-ke, they at least had a produced the right results
especially given the time skip

That is irrelevant. As I mentioned in the first post, the Japanese resistance movement used Lelouch as much if not more than he used them.

And then they act all betrayed and upset when he admits that he used them.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Regarding the Kallen issue, Lelouch only said what he said to Kallen to save her life. If he would have admitted that he cared for her, she never would have walked away. Both Lelouch and Kallen would have been gunned down.

[bladeofdarkness]

my point was that the video seems to confirm the accusations that the OOBK were leveling at lelouch's feet
it wouldnt matter to kaguya or xing-ke if this was cheap or unfair
the guy admited that he had used them all like saps

and that the only one there who KNEW why he was willingly admiting to have used them as pawns would not be able to argue in his defense without sounding like crazy
just picture kallen saying "no, you dont understand, he said all those things to protect ME"
she'd be thought of as either crazy, delusional, or under the influance of his geass
and either way, not a believable witness
and having her say "he's a good guy, you have to believe me, i knew about him from the start but i kept the truth from you all" wouldnt have helped her case

[morbosfist]

Given how they were acting, it would not be difficult, at all, for Kallen to convince either Xingke or Kaguya that Lelouch had the best of intentions when saying those things. They have her on tape just asking to let him explain himself, and she is met with baseless accusations and threats of being killed. She could easily be more credible than Ohgi, who's romantically involved with an enemy soldier. Tohdoh would be more difficult, but he wasn't the one leading the charge, so to speak.

[bladeofdarkness]

ougi is involved with an enemy soldier
kallen might be (for all they know) involved with lelouch
they went to the same school, same age, she's the closer to him then any of them, and his response to her capture was WAY beyond commander/soldier
she's not any more credible then ougi is (even less, consdiering that she knew who he was all along and kept it secret)

[morbosfist]

Ohgi's publicly involved with an enemy soldier, and under her advice betrayed their leader with no due process and without even consulting his superiors. I don't care how you argue it, they did not have the authority to do what they did.

Kallen never has to admit ever knowing who Zero is before that point, and even if she did it wouldn't change the fact that he's done nothing but help them. Furthermore, she's been in prison most of the time, while Ohgi's been collaborating with the enemy during the same time.

As for keeping his identity secret, it is easily argued that she did it exactly because the Black Knights, selfish bastards that they are, would react terribly and damage their own cause. In addition, they were already acting irrational before that. Asahina flat-out broke ranks in the middle of a fucking warzone to go capture Rolo. This is the epitome of incompetence.

Kallen would not only be more credible than these people, one look at the facts by either Xingke or Kaguya and she'd probably end up outranking them. The fact that none of them are even demoted is enough of a wallbanger.

[bladeofdarkness]

Ohgi's publicly involved with an enemy soldier, and under her advice betrayed their leader with no due process and without even consulting his superiors. I don't care how you argue it, they did not have the authority to do what they did.

i dont think there is EVER a situation where you have authority to pull a coup on your leader :heh:
but they did have an excuse i suppose

Kallen never has to admit ever knowing who Zero is before that point, and even if she did it wouldn't change the fact that he's done nothing but help them. Furthermore, she's been in prison most of the time, while Ohgi's been collaborating with the enemy during the same time.

if that were true, they wouldnt have tried axing him
murdering the JLF and triggering the SAZ massacre might be frowned upon

As for keeping his identity secret, it is easily argued that she did it exactly because the Black Knights, selfish bastards that they are, would react terribly and damage their own cause. In addition, they were already acting irrational before that. Asahina flat-out broke ranks in the middle of a fucking warzone to go capture Rolo. This is the epitome of incompetence.

i'd expect that kaguya at least would take offense to that one (she knew lelouch longer then kallen, and she didnt tell her either)
xing-ke didnt belong with them at the time, so he might not have cared

Kallen would not only be more credible than these people, one look at the facts by either Xingke or Kaguya and she'd probably end up outranking them. The fact that none of them are even demoted is enough of a wallbanger.

the FACTS were this
lelouch WAS a britannian prince in disguise
lelouch DID have a geass, which he used on a while variety of people without much care
lelouch did murder the leaders of the JLF
lelouch WAS resposible for the massacre at the SAZ
lelouch DID hide all these things from the OOBK
and later on, so did KALLEN HERSELF
a fact which would have likely had a different effect then what she would probably have wanted while trying to explain
she would have been less likely to convince them to forgive lelouch, and more likely to convince them to hang her right beside him

[synaesthetic]

Toudou probably would have been the easiest of all to convince, really. Throughout the first season, every time the Black Knights bring up something about not trusting Zero, Toudou is the one that speaks up and says, "basically, we're just using him to get Japan back."

So yeah. Toudou is one of the few people who has their head on straight.

Lelouch did hold the Idiot Ball involving the Black Knights in the destruction of the Geass Order. He should have taken C.C. and Rolo with him and no one else. They could easily have mopped up there and none of the Black Knights would be the wiser.

Certainly Asahina would not have started throwing blandishments and accusations around concerning an incident of which he has little or no knowledge. I'm sure he'd be perfectly willing after watching those "innocent little kids" mind-control his soldiers into killing each other or themselves.

[morbosfist]

i dont think there is EVER a situation where you have authority to pull a coup on your leader :heh:
but they did have an excuse i suppose There are right ways to get your superior officer relived of duty, and as a military force to a coalition of nations, those options were readily available.

if that were true, they wouldnt have tried axing him
murdering the JLF and triggering the SAZ massacre might be frowned uponYet both those events, only one of which they even have proof he actually did, were for the greater good of Japan, as is everything else he did. They were ungrateful, and Ohgi admits it. He admits openly that they got what they wanted and don't need him, with the half-assed excuse that "he used us first."

i'd expect that kaguya at least would take offense to that one (she knew lelouch longer then kallen, and she didnt tell her either)
xing-ke didnt belong with them at the time, so he might not have cared Kaguya met Lelouch all of once as I recall. Xingke's a different story. He probably wouldn't care.

the FACTS were this
lelouch WAS a britannian prince in disguise
lelouch DID have a geass, which he used on a while variety of people without much care
lelouch did murder the leaders of the JLF
lelouch WAS resposible for the massacre at the SAZ
lelouch DID hide all these things from the OOBK
and later on, so did KALLEN HERSELF
a fact which would have likely had a different effect then what she would probably have wanted while trying to explain
she would have been less likely to convince them to forgive lelouch, and more likely to convince them to hang her right beside himLelouch was a prince, they can prove that. Lelouch having Geass, they cannot prove beyond a snippet of recording and the testimony of their enemies. Same thing with the JLF, and that was even worse since they were outright guessing at what they think were instances of his Geass being used. They have no proof. Massacre at the SAZ is valid, but only to a point and they really didn't have concrete evidence. Hiding things that may or may not have happened? I don't think so. Kallen's knowledge is entirely contained to herself. No one else can be sure she knew Lelouch's identity.

Kallen could have easily won over Xingke and Kaguya, because they would be more willing to listen to reason than the others. Add on to that their under-the-table deal to get Japan back, done without any discussion, and she could discredit them in no time flat.

[snowdevil_crow]

They were pretty stressed out, and some crazy stuff had been happening. I think they had good reason to do what they did, even if it was a bit stupid, in retrospect. They were desperate, confused, and had just witnessed their commander showing absolutely no interest or care in the deaths of a bunch of his army as well as millions of civillians.

When you look at it rationally, yes, Schneizel didn't have much evidence. But he is very good at being manipulating, and he had just enough sort-of-evidence to convince them, given their state of mind and the general mood.

Not to mention, almost everything he said was actually true. The Black Knights couldn't really have known this for certain, but it did add up to fit together in the worst possible way. And yes, Lelouch had hidden the Geass Cult massacre from them, Toudou, at least, knew that for certain.

I think if Lelouch hadn't been of the state of mind he was at the time, he would have been able to talk his way out of it. I think he could have reasoned with him --- they were angry and desperate, but if he had tried he would have had a good chance at maybe worming his way out of there. Schneizel's presence could have been pretty inconvenient, but I think if he had even tried to speak to them, at least some would have listened. Remember, they didn't really want to believe that he was evil, and I think some (Tamaki, for certain) were still holding out for him just waving it all away as lies.

But, since he was both depressed over Nunnally and concerned for Kallen's safety, he just sort of... gave up.

[azul120]

Lelouch was a prince, they can prove that.

Operative word being was, and more than likely disenfranchised/betrayed by Britannia upon basic deduction, which just happened to be the case. And they went and trusted the word of the most prominent current prince with few reservations.

When you look at it rationally, yes, Schneizel didn't have much evidence. But he is very good at being manipulating, and he had just enough sort-of-evidence to convince them, given their state of mind and the general mood.

Not that it would make much difference. He was as selective as he could be with what he had for the sake of his argument, in that he only played the part of the Lelouch/Suzaku conversation where Lelouch says "I gave the order", leaving out the part where Suzaku later notes that Lelouch had been untruthful. And Schneizel was of course downright manipulative about Lelouch being "warned" about FLEIJA, when the recording suggested that Lelouch couldn't trust Suzaku's warning due to the apparent betrayal thing, which of course Schneizel and Kanon set up. (Not to mention of course that there was no former precedent for such a weapon, let alone that it had just been created, and was being operated with a more traditional piece of weaponry.)

[synaesthetic]

The whole betrayal never would have worked if Lelouch had handled the Geass Order's destruction without their involvement.

Oh, and if Ougi wasn't such a moron.

[Betteroffer]

The whole betrayal never would have worked if Lelouch had handled the Geass Order's destruction without their involvement.

Oh, and if Ougi wasn't such a moron.

Actually, it was necessary to bring along more than just C.C., Rolo, and Jeremiah to wip out the Geass Directorate. They needed a team to strike from multiple directions and secure the Directorate in a way that prevented the possibility of any scientists and/or Geass users from escaping. There were scenes showing a purple screen with red hexagons appearing over it. This was demonstrating that they were securing lcations and forcing any survivors into the center.

C.C. had to seperate from the rest of the BK forces to intercept the escape train with all the research data. That would leave just Lelouch, Rolo, and Jeremiah to face any defences the Directorate had, and we can't be sure how much knowledge Leloch would have of its defences, aside from Jeremiah assuming that they could expect to face a rebuilt Seigfreid, which singlehandedly took out a large number of the BK forces, and would have been a LOT harder to stop if Cornelia hadn't strapped 50 guns to an Akatsuki and made a surprise attack. If Lelouch was indeed expecting the Seigfreid to be an issue, then the bomb on Rolo's Vincent might have been strong enough to break through the electromagnetic armour of the Seigfreid, but we don't know.

Lelouch's mistake in dealing with the Directorate was that he didn't Geass Zero Squadron's survivors to erase the footage of the attack or not tape it at all (it WAS a covert operation afterall) and to either forget the attack, never reveal it, or believe that it was a military instilation with actual soldiers. The reason he didn't is never given, since he had enough time to deduce that Britannia was acting in a way that suggested Charles was absent and therefore trapped in the Thought Elevator. Beyond that, why did he even wait to see if Charles was trapped. What if Charles revealled from the start that he wasn't?

As for the betrayal, the BK were still killing their leader on the words of an enemy leader. We are never told if Schneizel even agreed to return Japan, so there is a chance they knew they were doing it for nothing. Even if Schneizel returned Japan, the Emperor would order him to retake it as Japan had a Thought Elevator, though the surface justification would be the Sakuradite.

What could the BK expect to happen afterwards? The 'decisive battle' had gone to Britannia and even if the UFN got Japan, it was through a mercy negotiation, not military force. With this, then the other Areas would be much less inclined to rebel, which was a key factor in spreading Britannia's military forces thin enough for the UFN to actually beat it. With the appearance of FLEIJA this was NOT going to work and the BK had tossed out their founder, and the only person who could deal with this, just as their enemy revealled a weapon that can swallow entire cities in one shot (Nina confirms that EACH ONE can have a diameter of 100 miles if the limiters are removed).

As for Kallen dealing with Kaguya and Xing-ke, once she saw Ohgi was busy claiming that soldiers apparently shouldn't be used as soldiers, she should have gone to Xing-ke and told him about the tape and that Lelouch told her something. She could try to claim he was saving her, or she could say that he may have told her some coded message, or possibly triggered a Geass command, which would persuade him to have the tape footage enhanced to a point where Lelouch's words could be heard or his lips read.

[Jekyl]

To end this subject…
That does not change his motivation. He wanted the fighting to end, that is all. He did not think about the consequences of his actions. He himself admits this.
You mix up different things. Motivation is motivation. His internal motivation was egoistic, though he didn’t like to admit it, but his aim wasn’t. If you think that wanting to stop pointless bloodshed is selfish reason then there is something wrong with your definition of selfishness.
Charles is the most powerful person in Britannia, period. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about this. His word is law. Opinion doesn't change as long as he's in power.
If there is no ifs, no ands and no buts for you then it’s pointless to argue about characters, acts, motivations and stuff, because even with fictional characters you should deal with all ifs, ands and buts of life and human’s mind in order to understand them. There was ‘if’ for Charles, Suzaku, Schniezel, Naoto and whoever else, because they are characters, not decorations in play about Lelouch fighting Britannia.
You're making things up. Bismarck is Charles' right-hand man, which means he knows how Charles thinks. Charles outright lied to Suzaku about Geass and the Sword of Akasha (the contract only entailed him and V.V. not lying to each other). This nonsense about "trusted him Area 11" is just that. He did not trust him with anything. Suzaku acted on his own.

Nunnally did not trust him, she had to put up with him. She knew he was lying, and called him on it. Schneizel just let Suzaku do what he wanted.
He acted on his own because he was trusted enough. If the word ‘trusted’ doesn’t fit you then change it to ‘allowed to act on his own because, in spite of his reputation, no one expected his betrayal’.
Nunnally didn’t have to put up with him. Her business was to administrate Area, his – to settle military questions (or something like this), but she asked Suzaku for help.
Suzaku only asked for the position so he would feel better about himself. As soon as he gets an excuse (Turn 8 and 18), he'll drop his self-righteous plan for a chance at death.
In Turn 8 even though he opened himself to attack, he already knew that it’s pointless. This one doesn’t count like serious suicide attempt (let alone that with such excuse he could shoot himself anytime, well, before geass happened). In Turn 18 he actually was trying to resist geass command, but at that point his only options were either to die or to fire FLEIA.
You're making up the second part. He's not saving lives, in fact as a soldier he willfully participates in the massacre of the Shinjuku Ghetto. There is no way to claim ignorance on this fact.
There is nothing to ignore because he did not participate in massacre actually. He was sent to Shinjuku to find a bomb, which he was doing until meeting with Lelouch. When Clovis commanded to start massacre Suzaku was already busy lying unconscious with fake wound.
It makes him honest, not deluded. As for making the world a better place, that's Nunnally's entire wish. He cared about the entire world. Suzaku does not.
So he was honest to himself and maybe Nunnally, hypocritical to whole other world, I still don’t see what to praise here, though it’s probably the matter of taste.
Lelouch cared about Nunnally, period. He was ready to drop his world liberating crusade in Turn 7 after Nunnally said she don’t want it. He didn’t try to escape from FLEIA when he understood that Nunnally is dead.
Maybe Kallen’s words in Turn 7 changed something, but in takes another 10+ episodes and Nunnally’s ‘death’ for him to see that he was ‘shortsighted’.
Nuking all those people sure as hell made him grow up, because before that point he had a constant stick up his ass about wrong means being meaningless when everything he did served to only make the world progressively worse. That snapped him out of his naive ideals and gave him some much needed perspective.
More like it snapped him out of his mind, because situation became so bad that he didn’t know what to do anymore.
Your logic his flawed. His inability to convert Suzaku is because Suzaku is a stubborn idiot.
Suzaku as stubborn as every normal human would be about his views if it really worth something for him.
Lelouch accepted Suzaku's way of doing things right after Rolo died, but took his own method anyway because he knows that such a method is self-defeating.
Right, and it takes only 40+ episodes…

[azul120]

You mix up different things. Motivation is motivation. His internal motivation was egoistic, though he didn’t like to admit it, but his aim wasn’t. If you think that wanting to stop pointless bloodshed is selfish reason then there is something wrong with your definition of selfishness.

I think he was referring to his wish to die throughout the show in terms of what was selfish.

In Turn 18 he actually was trying to resist geass command, but at that point his only options were either to die or to fire FLEIA.

He didn't even try to resist the Geass in that episode in the least. Infact, he saw the moment Kallen was about to kill him as his opportunity to die, not thinking about the Geass for one moment.

The only time he ever tried to resist it was in Turn 20 when he was battling Bismarck.

Lelouch cared about Nunnally, period. He was ready to drop his world liberating crusade in Turn 7 after Nunnally said she don’t want it. He didn’t try to escape from FLEIA when he understood that Nunnally is dead.
Maybe Kallen’s words in Turn 7 changed something, but in takes another 10+ episodes and Nunnally’s ‘death’ for him to see that he was ‘shortsighted’.

You're not thinking deeply enough. Nunnally was one of the most important things to her in the world, and he had suddenly went into an emotionally catatonic state when he thought he lost her. Just because Lelouch was still human and therefore prone to emotion doesn't mean he didn't care about other things.

Suzaku as stubborn as every normal human would be about his views if it really worth something for him.

Suzaku's problem was that he was so fixated on his own beliefs, especially given that he was taking such a lopsided approach to them, that he couldn't see things logically, period.

[synaesthetic]

Well the main reason he was fixated on those beliefs is because he killed his father and wanted to die to atone...

So yeah, not exactly a rational thought process there.

[morbosfist]

You mix up different things. Motivation is motivation. His internal motivation was egoistic, though he didn’t like to admit it, but his aim wasn’t. If you think that wanting to stop pointless bloodshed is selfish reason then there is something wrong with your definition of selfishness.It is selfish when you do not care why that blood is being shed, only that it is.

If there is no ifs, no ands and no buts for you then it’s pointless to argue about characters, acts, motivations and stuff, because even with fictional characters you should deal with all ifs, ands and buts of life and human’s mind in order to understand them. There was ‘if’ for Charles, Suzaku, Schniezel, Naoto and whoever else, because they are characters, not decorations in play about Lelouch fighting Britannia.You've addressed nothing. Please address the point.

He acted on his own because he was trusted enough. If the word ‘trusted’ doesn’t fit you then change it to ‘allowed to act on his own because, in spite of his reputation, no one expected his betrayal’.
Nunnally didn’t have to put up with him. Her business was to administrate Area, his – to settle military questions (or something like this), but she asked Suzaku for help.You confuse trust for autonomy. KoR have autonomy when not given specific orders.

In Turn 8 even though he opened himself to attack, he already knew that it’s pointless. This one doesn’t count like serious suicide attempt (let alone that with such excuse he could shoot himself anytime, well, before geass happened). In Turn 18 he actually was trying to resist geass command, but at that point his only options were either to die or to fire FLEIA.As azul notes, he didn't try to resist anything. He saw an opportunity to die a righteous death and took it. He even lowered his guard to let it happen. Turn 8 is a suicide attempt to matter how you rationalize it. Suzaku aims for "suicide by cop", as it were, and forgets all about his Geass when he gets the chance.

There is nothing to ignore because he did not participate in massacre actually. He was sent to Shinjuku to find a bomb, which he was doing until meeting with Lelouch. When Clovis commanded to start massacre Suzaku was already busy lying unconscious with fake wound.*bzzz* Wrong. The massacre is announced before Suzaku ever goes looking for the poison gas, and is still in effect (and he knows it) when he's blowing up Knightmares in the Lancelot. Nice try, but there's no excusing his actions. He's participating in that massacre, willingly.

So he was honest to himself and maybe Nunnally, hypocritical to whole other world, I still don’t see what to praise here, though it’s probably the matter of taste.
Lelouch cared about Nunnally, period. He was ready to drop his world liberating crusade in Turn 7 after Nunnally said she don’t want it. He didn’t try to escape from FLEIA when he understood that Nunnally is dead.
Maybe Kallen’s words in Turn 7 changed something, but in takes another 10+ episodes and Nunnally’s ‘death’ for him to see that he was ‘shortsighted’.He didn't try to escape from FLEIJA because he was too shocked too move, not as some suicide attempt.

It took those ten episodes for him to lose any qualms about the limits to which he should use his Geass and go all out. His plan before that was in no way shortsighted.

More like it snapped him out of his mind, because situation became so bad that he didn’t know what to do anymore.He knew exactly what he was doing. He realized waiting wasn't working and decided the quick road was better.

Suzaku as stubborn as every normal human would be about his views if it really worth something for him.Suzaku is far more stubborn than that. He was just put on trial unfairly and set to be executed, then walks back to be executed just because he wants to follow the rules.

Right, and it takes only 40+ episodes…And your point is? He still does things the way that works, even if Suzaku's method is "right."

[Nobodyman9]

Moved from the Kallen Thread.

Okay, I think I've finally figured out exactly why it is that Ougi is such a douche, why he betrayed Zero, and why he is so universally hated.

All right, we all know that Ougi sounds like Yogi, right? Thus the connection between the two is obvious. But here's the key part, according to Space Ghost, Yogi Bear is Satan. So...

Satan=Yogi=Ougi

So Ougi is Satan. It all makes sense!

On the other hand, if you want discussion about Ougi nobody, you can to go general-charas discussion, i shall gladly join if it is about him, haha.

So yeah, that's my theory. And if you have any further doubts.

89X0A2mLPn8

[bladeofdarkness]

as odd as these words feel coming out of my mouth
i wanted to talk for a second about gino

i dont really care all that much about him as a character (nor did the writers it seemed :heh:) but rather about him as a pilot

i know we often tend to look down on him because he gets out classed by suzaku and kallen, but i think we might be ignoring the man's actual skill

other then his fights with kallen and suzaku, he has been shown to
1)take out asahina with bearly an effort
2)pretty much play around with xing-ke
3)more or less play with gilford, and later fight both gilford AND jeremia at the same time (i'll remind you all that gilford alone can fight toudo to a standstill)
4)after suzaku gets the albion, and gino gets the divider, gino lasts more time against suzaku then xing-ke AND toudo did combined

he might be overshadowed by suzaku and kallen
but gino might actually be the 3rd best pilot in the show

[azul120]

And he also kills Ryoga Senba of the Four Holy Swords.

[bladeofdarkness]

And he also kills Ryoga Senba of the Four Holy Swords.

yeah
but he killed him with a sucker punch
the others he faced in actual combat

[morbosfist]

other then his fights with kallen and suzaku, he has been shown to
1)take out asahina with bearly an effort
2)pretty much play around with xing-ke
3)more or less play with gilford, and later fight both gilford AND jeremia at the same time (i'll remind you all that gilford alone can fight toudo to a standstill)
4)after suzaku gets the albion, and gino gets the divider, gino lasts more time against suzaku then xing-ke AND toudo did combined 1. Asahina was grounded and unfamiliar with his opponent. Element of surprise.
2. Xingke was likewise distracted, for different reasons, and he was only holding his own as long as Xingke was paying attention.
3. Guilford was flying an inferior unit. Jeremiah's unit is terribly inaccurate when it comes to weapons, and Gino was running, not fighting.
4. Gino lasts because he sat inside and kept the Albion on level terms. As soon as they got outside, he lost quick.

None of these instances prove he's the third best pilot.

[incorrupts]

he might be overshadowed by suzaku and kallen
but gino might actually be the 3rd best pilot in the show

Lol, not really. For whatever morbos said as well. The third best pilot, might probably be Toudouh, Urabe and maybe Xing-ke on the mix as well. Resolve to fight + no fear to die = extra "ability" points. Something that Gino lacked a lot, while he was only looking for "fun-rabu-ha-hu."

[bladeofdarkness]

who's better then ?
he's better then xing-ke or gillford (who is toudo's equal)
who's better ?

[Nobodyman9]

Are we talking about just Knightmare pilots who survived? Because if not I'll gladly throw Bismarck out there.

[incorrupts]

who's better then ?
he's better then xing-ke or gillford (who is toudo's equal)
who's better ?
I do not know blade, how the hell am i supposed to answer a question like this? I stopped knowing, since i stopped talking to Okouchi on the phone.
I am just saying, given the situations, that Gino, no, is not the third best pilot on the show. That is totally giving him a lot more credit than he deserves, since there were certain circumstances that allowed him to "survive" all the battles. {not even winning, the key is "surviving"}

[morbosfist]

who's better then ?
he's better then xing-ke or gillford (who is toudo's equal)
who's better ?He's never proven himself better than Xingke, nor Guilford for that matter (he blindsided Guilford to cut that arm off). Gino fights for fun. More importantly, he also doesn't fight head to head that often. Gino takes advantage of opponents who aren't paying attention. Their fault, of course, and in war it's certainly a helpful tactic, but it doesn't make him a better pilot.

[bladeofdarkness]

he is shown more or less PLAYING with xing-ke (who has VERY strong reason to win the fight, since his people are getting killed)

[morbosfist]

he is shown more or less PLAYING with xing-ke (who has VERY strong reason to win the fight, since his people are getting killed)And the only reason he's doing that is because Xingke is not concentrated on fighting him. The few moments he does, Gino only holds his own.

[bladeofdarkness]

And the only reason he's doing that is because Xingke is not concentrated on fighting him. The few moments he does, Gino only holds his own.

what else is he doing then (xing-ke i mean)
he is trying to get past him because he needs to save the tianzi and his men
about gillford
gillford can fight toudo to a standstill in a gloceter (while toudo is piloting his costum gekka, which is like the zangetsu without wings)

and yet gino can fight him AND jeremia, WHILE COMPLAINING THAT HE'D RATHER FIGHT KALLEN

[morbosfist]

what else is he doing then (xing-ke i mean)
he is trying to get past him because he needs to save the tianzi and his men
about gillford
gillford can fight toudo to a standstill in a gloceter (while toudo is piloting his costum gekka, which is like the zangetsu without wings)

and yet gino can fight him AND jeremia, WHILE COMPLAINING THAT HE'D RATHER FIGHT KALLENHe isn't trying to get past him, Gino is behind him. He's trying to attack the loyalist (for lack of a better word) Chinese forces that are bombing the Ikaruga.

Guilford fought Tohdoh evenly because he had an MVS and the Glouster is pretty close to the Gekka, which is not the Zangetsu (far from it). He's in a Vincent in the other battles, and that's nothing compared to the 8th gen Tristan.

And, as I said before, he wasn't fighting either of them. He snuck in, chopped off an arm, then ran like hell when Jeremiah popped in. He's not shown fighting back, and his desire to fight Kallen is voiced well before the battle starts up, so you're exaggerating his complaining. He says one line during the actual fighting, that's it.

[bladeofdarkness]

so this does raise an interesting question
who IS the 3rd best
only live ones (otherwise it would be bismark)

[morbosfist]

so this does raise an interesting question
who IS the 3rd best
only live ones (otherwise it would be bismark)Bismarck without a doubt, even without the Geass. With the Geass, he's first. Sure, he's flying a tank with a BFS, but he's still pretty good to take Xingke with no effort, and if his ground battle with Suzaku is any indication, he's a much better fighter.

[bladeofdarkness]

like i said, only live ones

[morbosfist]

like i said, only live onesIf you're going by living then Gino gets to be one of the top fighters by virtue of elimination. Guilford doesn't appear to be in much shape to pilot as well (light-sensitive eyes explain the glasses). Kallen and Suzaku either don't have machines or won't pilot any more, not that Kallen isn't still the best damn pilot alive. Xingke's probably dead. Only Tohdoh is left.

[bladeofdarkness]

thats another thing
why do people say xing-ke is dead
you can see the shen-hu right there in the epilouge, and its HIS machine
not being in the wedding picture does not equal death
if it was nunnaly and suzaku would be dead :heh:

[Nobodyman9]

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I would say Xing-ke if he's still alive. If not, then Tohdoh.

[incorrupts]

Supposedly, Suzaku is the best pilot. Then, Kallen goes and pwns him. Then, Bismarck is bragging about his abilities, then Suzu pwns him. {with his live Geass but still}
Point? Yeah, that a lot of pilots are labeled as "woah, dude you are the ACE!!11" but we never get to see them in a clear-fight battle, or, to see them in action for more than one small segment.
So, going by the ""- method, Kallen is the first one, and Suzaku is the 1/2 one. For everyone else, i would say it is not that safe to make assumptions.

[kitten320]

I'm not sure if it is the right thradbut has anyone noticed how C.C looks exactly like AMber from Darker than Black?

Or other way around, have noidea which show was done first.

[Xander]

I'm not sure if it is the right thradbut has anyone noticed how C.C looks exactly like AMber from Darker than Black?

Or other way around, have noidea which show was done first.

Amber does look a lot like C.C. but I wouldn't say it's a big deal.

Still, Darker than Black aired right after the first season of Code Geass ended...on the same time slot. :heh:

[kitten320]

Amber does look a lot like C.C. but I wouldn't say it's a big deal.

Still, Darker than Black aired right after the first season of Code Geass ended...on the same time slot. :heh:

Yeh I know, but I just can't look at Amber without thinking about C.C 0_0

It is the first time I see such big similarities and can't get them out of my head.

[Avira]

Yeh I know, but I just can't look at Amber without thinking about C.C 0_0

It is the first time I see such big similarities and can't get them out of my head.

Especially with their white body suits and similar 'mystic girl auras'...
They're just really, really alike it's almost a rip-off imo.
However, Amber is more childish and smiles more often whereas C.C. is the more mature counterpart.

I think Amber came first, wasn't there the DTB manga in which she appeared? I think the animes came after that or something....I don't know:heh:

[Lolipopo]

I'm not sure if it is the right thradbut has anyone noticed how C.C looks exactly like AMber from Darker than Black?

Or other way around, have noidea which show was done first.

And C.V. looks exactly like this girl in Negima (and more exactly that Amber) so who cares ?
It's not a first in the anime world, originality is a rarity these days.
And Amber and C.C. are pretty different when you forget the look. Really.

[bladeofdarkness]

Especially with their white body suits and similar 'mystic girl auras'...
They're just really, really alike it's almost a rip-off imo.
However, Amber is more childish and smiles more often whereas C.C. is the more mature counterpart.

I think Amber came first, wasn't there the DTB manga in which she appeared? I think the animes came after that or something....I don't know:heh:

because walking around with a stuffed toy all the time is the definition of mature :heh:
at least amber has a REASON for acting immature (her powers)

[Avira]

I dunno, I always had the impression C.C. was more....ladylike? Not the word I'm looking for but whatever.

And I wouldn't call her immature if that's what you mean. Cheese-kun just came with her pizza obsession, it's not like she loves toys in general (I seriously doubt that). Plus it was only supposed to be a 'cute' side of her, since C.C. is generally not a cute character imo.

You know, little aspect that makes her more dynamic or something :heh:

And didn't Amber just get younger on the outside?

[bladeofdarkness]

contrast ambers behavior before the heavens gate incident and after it
she is distinctively more mature back then

and when C.C's obsession for a toy almost leads to her blowing lelouch's cover in ashford in ep 5
but later fails to care enough to go and check on him in ep 7 after he just had his Raison d'être taken away (stating that it doesnt matter to her so long as he's alive) it stops being cutesy and raises unfortunate implications

[Kyero Fox]

contrast ambers behavior before the heavens gate incident and after it
she is distinctively more mature back then

and when C.C's obsession for a toy almost leads to her blowing lelouch's cover in ashford in ep 5
but later fails to care enough to go and check on him in ep 7 after he just had his Raison d'être taken away (stating that it doesnt matter to her so long as he's alive) it stops being cutesy and raises unfortunate implications

yea, not to mention her obsession for pizza....

[Knightrunner]

yea, not to mention her obsession for pizza....

for an immortal character she was kind of boring compared to the other characters in code geass. i would have liked to see some unique tricks she learned over the years.

[HollowScar]

I think tey should take characters from one anime and make them do a cameo in other anime's, so we could see more of them, from a different perspective.