View Full Version : Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll
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Let the battle begin! :D
And the Eng subs come out faster... :heh:
LoweGear
2007-08-19, 11:23
And for our first pics of the day!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187540283195.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187540355608.png
Yeah, I assume you're reading my 4chan thread lowe >_>
LoweGear
2007-08-19, 11:25
Yeah, I assume you're reading my 4chan thread lowe >_>
Definitely :heh:
Should I just wait then? It's been a while since I can follow an episode in real time :heh:
It's really hard to screencap off this peercast and it's too much effort for me to upload screencaps to imageshack so I just toss them on 4chan lol, go ahead and post them here if you want.
LoweGear
2007-08-19, 11:31
That's cool then. Should've known it was you sooner :heh:
More aers screens :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187540447625.pnghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187540587283.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187540727209.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187540810024.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187540965328.png
And for our first pics of the day!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187540283195.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187540355608.pngHALLELUJAH!!! I so gonna laugh in Darco's face tomorrow! :D
*runs from Darco Pole*
LoweGear
2007-08-19, 11:36
MOAR
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187541172268.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187541286248.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187541381477.png
Massive setup for 22 (duh). Ends with Vita getting impaled by whatever it was that nearly killed Nanoha 8 years ago (she flashbacks), then going insane while injured..cut to ED.
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 11:37
HALLELUJAH!!! I so gonna laugh in Darco's face tomorrow! :D
*runs from Darco Pole*
At the same time, it dashes my hope for 'all-star Pray' insert. :(
Well, never expected anything anyway. Like I said, 0.1%.
As for Unison Signum...I'm DAMN sure I've seen that hair, that eyes and that light-purple/white combination of clothes...SOMEWHERE...
Vita... WHAT?! :eyespin: That can't be right... The Cradle couldn't have been active back then... Unless this is some new Gadget weapon?
And that arc thing was Teana getting perforated?! I thought that was the Dagger mode leaving after images...
At the same time, it dashes my hope for 'all-star Pray' insert. :(
Well, never expected anything anyway. Like I said, 0.1%.
As for Unison Signum...I'm DAMN sure I've seen that hair, that eyes and that light-purple/white combination of clothes...SOMEWHERE...1. Yeah that... Darn. :sad:
2. Me too. :uhoh:
LoweGear
2007-08-19, 11:43
Additional pic
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/USSKenji64296/1187541616237.png
Vita... WHAT?! :eyespin: That can't be right... The Cradle couldn't have been active back then... Unless this is some new Gadget weapon?
And that arc thing was Teana getting perforated?! I thought that was the Dagger mode leaving after images...
Tea just has a busted ankle and is stuck in a 3v1 situation inside a barrier with no backup. Vita got impaled directly through the middle by a stealthed drone that she recalls being what took Nanoha down before, causing her to go insane and smash it off herself. Then like.. a bunch mor eof them show up as Vita stands there dripping blood.
Village Idiot
2007-08-19, 11:45
At the same time, it dashes my hope for 'all-star Pray' insert. :(
Well, never expected anything anyway. Like I said, 0.1%.
As for Unison Signum...I'm DAMN sure I've seen that hair, that eyes and that light-purple/white combination of clothes...SOMEWHERE...
You mean her?
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/469/1187541286248zm2.png (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-08-19
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3101/kbypo36jm7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-08-19
Aaron008R
2007-08-19, 11:47
Looks like things are really starting to heat up!
OMG! Casualties at first contact episode?!?! 0_0
Anyway, looks like Teana's stage is set for a save by Vice!:D
Deathkillz
2007-08-19, 11:49
goddam union signum looks win :D i hope she does actually get some fighting screen time now >.>
Tea just has a busted ankle and is stuck in a 3v1 situation inside a barrier with no backup. Vita got impaled directly through the middle by a stealthed drone that she recalls being what took Nanoha down before, causing her to go insane and smash it off herself. Then like.. a bunch mor eof them show up as Vita stands there dripping blood.That... sux to be Teana. :(
And I see Subaru getting bashed up by Gin-nee. If it were up to me, I'd have Subaru being forced to kill Gin to release her from her misery... :heh:
At least we now know for sure that active camoflage technology exists in that universe.
You mean her?
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/469/1187541286248zm2.png (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-08-19
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3101/kbypo36jm7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-08-19Hmm... Something's not right here...
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 11:51
You mean her?
How could I forget Phantasia!? But yeah, that's it. Thanks for the jog-up.
Yes...casualties...gotta love them. :)
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 11:52
Ugh, this is starting to look like episode 17 again. They've dispersed their forces too much and are being defeated in detail. They've already managed to lose a quarter of their effectives. Hopefully they've massed enough combat power somewhere to achieve at least a local victory.
Why can't Hayate be competent? :confused:
Gearhead
2007-08-19, 11:53
It's terribly handy that Vita isn't REALLY made of meat. Otherwise that would really, really suck for her.
From Subaru's monologue, she's fully aware of what her IS is and also able to use it at will.
Of course, as she wouldn't want to kill Ginga, she specifically expresses that she can't use it against Ginga.
(Also the IS name "振動破砕" seems to be official, as Subaru used that term herself)
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 11:54
Yay, casualties !!! I hope for the best now :D
Can't wait for nico to get the Ep. up.
BTW nothing about those who went to Scaglietti's Lab?
Aaron008R
2007-08-19, 11:54
Understandable... But they really have to handle quite a lot of ground... Whew. It must really suck to have too few powerful enough mages.:heh:
Yay, casualties !!! I hope for the best now :D
Can't wait for nico to get the Ep. up.
BTW nothing about those who went to Scaglietti's Lab?
sei vs schach, tre + sette vs fate, fate and schach are seperated.
Ugh, this is starting to look like episode 17 again. They've split up their forces too much and are being defeated in detail. They've already managed to lose a quarter of their effectives. Hopefully they've massed enough combat power somewhere to achieve at least a local victory.But if I were on Scagletti's side, that's exactly the situation I would try to force the Riot 6 into... If they have to go chase 3 different targets, is it their fault that they have to be split up, or my good planning? After all, they cant sacrifice any of the 3 locations, so Scagletti starts of literally dictating the arena. it's all up to the good guys to make do with it.
It's terribly handy that Vita isn't REALLY made of meat. Otherwise that would really, really suck for her.Quote for Truth. You just can't get rid of them... :heh:
Quote for Truth. You just can't get rid of them... :heh:
This is not entirely true..
octoberasian
2007-08-19, 11:59
Dangit, niconico, update. >_<
Only Ep21 Part A is up. T_T
Aaron008R
2007-08-19, 11:59
I don't think the Wolkies could afford getting killed now.:heh:
It's not like they can be rebooted; even when the Book of Darkness was still rampant.
This is not entirely true..As long as the Linker Core survives, with some effort, Hayate can regenerate them as seen in A's. I think. :p
As long as the Linker Core survives, with some effort, Hayate can regenerate them as seen in A's. I think. :pIt's specifically stated that they can't do that anymore because of mulfunction of Wolkenlitter system, in EP19 (iirc).
It's specifically stated that they can't do that anymore because of mulfunction of Wolkenlitter system, in EP19 (iirc).Oh sou ka...
*mental note updated*
Aaron008R
2007-08-19, 12:13
In any case. Since Signum's already Unisoned, Any sign of Zest? What about Hayate and Nanoha? The fleet?
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 12:19
But if I were on Scagletti's side, that's exactly the situation I would try to force the Riot 6 into... If they have to go chase 3 different targets, is it their fault that they have to be split up, or my good planning? After all, they cant sacrifice any of the 3 locations, so Scagletti starts of literally dictating the arena. it's all up to the good guys to make do with it.
Yes, it is definitely RF6's fault. Better to mass enough combat power to gain one objective than to provide inadequate forces for multiple objectives and fail. The targets can't be that time sensitive. RF6 had all of the time between the end of episode 17 and episode 20. That means they don't need to attack all three at once.
If going after all three objectives at once is what Jail is expecting, then RF6 is completely conceding the element of surprise. Concentrating on one or two objectives at a time lets them mass more combat power in those locations and takes advantage of the way Jail split his forces. Jail's defensive dispositions have issues as well since he is trying to defend all three locations without any substantial reserves. His forces are vulnerable to being pinned in place by limited holding attacks while RF6's main forces concentrate on the main objectives.
Splitting their forces evenly is one of the worst things each side could possibly do.
In any case. Since Signum's already Unisoned, Any sign of Zest? What about Hayate and Nanoha? The fleet?
Fleet's on the way. Signum unisons in response to Zest/Agito unisoning. Hayate is outside the cradle taking down drones (she's breathing really heavily allready). Nanoha and Vita entered the cradle and Vita had them split up so Nanoha could go after Vivio.
Gearhead
2007-08-19, 12:20
Fleet's on the way. Signum unisons in response to Zest/Agito unisoning. Hayate is outside the cradle taking down drones (she's breathing really heavily allready). Nanoha and Vita entered the cradle and Vita had them split up so Nanoha could go after Vivio.
So while Hayate has a lot of raw horsepower, she doesn't have a lot of stamina. Makes sense, considering her childhood health.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 12:21
Yes, it is definitely their fault. Better to mass enough combat power to gain one objective than to provide inadequate forces for multiple objectives and fail. The targets can't be that time sensitive. RF6 had all of the time between the end of episode 17 and episode 20. That means they don't need to attack all three at once.
If going after all three objectives at once is what Jail is expecting, then they are completely conceding the element of surprise. Concentrating on one or two objectives at a time lets them mass more combat power in those locations and takes advantage of the way Jail split his forces. If they had the combat power to do it, they could send a bare minimum of forces to the remaining targets to pin Jail's forces in place using holding attacks.
Splitting their forces evenly is one of the worst things they could possibly do.
Agreed.
- - -
At last the entire thing is on nico :rolleyes:
Yes, it is definitely RF6's fault. Better to mass enough combat power to gain one objective than to provide inadequate forces for multiple objectives and fail. The targets can't be that time sensitive.
The cradle is time sensitive. If it reaches it's target location, it's game over. It's got an extremely powerful AMF field (when Nanoha and Vita land in it, their magic gets canceled and they start falling to the deck - Nanoha has to expend extra power to even continue flying). The fowards and the other personel obviously can't operate under this condition, so who else can they send to the Cradle?
Aaron008R
2007-08-19, 12:25
Fleet's on the way. Signum unisons in response to Zest/Agito unisoning. Hayate is outside the cradle taking down drones (she's breathing really heavily allready). Nanoha and Vita entered the cradle and Vita had them split up so Nanoha could go after Vivio.
I see. Thanks.:D
So Hayate's still nuking away?:heh: The girl needs to lighten up on her attacks sometimes or she's really gonna exhaust herself quickly. SS or not.
In any case. Since Signum's already Unisoned, Any sign of Zest? What about Hayate and Nanoha? The fleet?- Zest has already confronted by Signum, and they both go unison after that.
More specifically, Agito shows some sign of... suprise, discovery or something... at Signum engulfing her Lavantain with her flame, although we've yet to see what that implies.
- Hayate is taking command of aereal mages around Cradle, sweeping the swarm of Drones and supporting invasion teams' going in.
That can't be helped though, imo, for she would be the most unsuitable mage for indoor combat.
- Nanoha went in with Vita, but as they find out that Throne and Reactor are in exact opposite way, they choose to separate themselves as well.
Needless to say, Nanoha is going to Throne and Vita for Reactor.
- Fleet is... well, still in their peaceful journey.
Chrono and Lindy contacts Yuuno in the Library, who gives them information regarding Cradle.
Oh, and one more thing. Arf stays with Yuuno, and makes her very first official speech in Anime.
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 12:28
Yes, it is definitely RF6's fault. Better to mass enough combat power to gain one objective than to provide inadequate forces for multiple objectives and fail. The targets can't be that time sensitive. RF6 had all of the time between the end of episode 17 and episode 20. That means they don't need to attack all three at once.
If going after all three objectives at once is what Jail is expecting, then RF6 is completely conceding the element of surprise. Concentrating on one or two objectives at a time lets them mass more combat power in those locations and takes advantage of the way Jail split his forces. Jail's defensive dispositions have issues as well since he is trying to defend all three locations without any substantial reserves. His forces are vulnerable to being pinned in place by limited holding attacks while RF6's main forces concentrate on the main objectives.
Splitting their forces evenly is one of the worst things each side could possibly do.
Actually, it is quite time-sensitive in a way.
If Cradle is not stopped before reaching activation point, I think it's pretty much game over.
Jail could escape easily if he wants to, since Sein is there. I take it that his 'tube-girls' are quite important, but the key was that delaying was dangerous, considering how bloody long it took for them to FINALLY pin down Jail.
And it's not like they can avoid the defenses towards the capital area.
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 12:29
The cradle is time sensitive. If it reaches it's target location, it's game over. It's got an extremely powerful AMF field (when Nanoha and Vita land in it, their magic gets canceled and they start falling to the deck - Nanoha has to expend extra power to even continue flying). The fowards and the other personel obviously can't operate under this condition, so who else can they send to the Cradle?
So if the Cradle is the time sensitive target then that should be the main objective. Almost all of RF6's forces should be sent to the Cradle with limited attacks on the other two areas to pin the Jail's remaining forces.
Actually, it is quite time-sensitive in a way.
If Cradle is not stopped before reaching activation point, I think it's pretty much game over.
Jail could escape easily if he wants to, since Sein is there. I take it that his 'tube-girls' are quite important, but the key was that delaying was dangerous, considering how bloody long it took for them to FINALLY pin down Jail.
And it's not like they can avoid the defenses towards the capital area.
Yes, but going after both doesn't do any good if they lose in either area as those forces they used where they lost could have been used to increase their chances of winning at the other location. It greatly increases the chances of losing in both areas. Then there's also that third objective they're after.
Aaron008R
2007-08-19, 12:31
- Zest has already confronted by Signum, and they both go unison after that.
More specifically, Agito shows some sign of... suprise, discovery or something... at Signum engulfing her Lavantain with her flame, although we've yet to see what that implies.
- Hayate is taking command of aereal mages around Cradle, sweeping the swarm of Drones and supporting invasion teams' going in.
That can't be helped though, imo, for she would be the most unsuitable mage for indoor combat.
- Nanoha went in with Vita, but as they find out that Throne and Reactor are in exact opposite way, they choose to separate themselves as well.
Needless to say, Nanoha is going to Throne and Vita for Reactor.
- Fleet is... well, still in their peaceful journey.
Chrono and Lindy contacts Yuuno in the Library, who gives them information regarding Cradle.
Oh, and one more thing. Arf stays with Yuuno, and makes her first official speech in Anime.
An even better description. Thanks, Thisguy!:D
- Hmm... Could this mean that maybe Agitp woule be really compatible with Signum later?:D
- Understood. And there are other squads after all.
- Judging by her condition, I'm worried if Vita can pull of a reactor-buster or not...:uhoh:
- And the fleet sure is taking their sweet time.:heh: At least Arf and Yuuno are showed.:D
So if the Cradle is the time sensitive target then that should be the main objective. Almost all of RF6's forces should be sent to the Cradle with limited attacks on the other two areas to pin the Jail remaining forces.
Did you miss the part where I said that the only people who can operate under the AMF's condition are the extremely strong mages - Hayate can't do close quarter combat, so she's out, someone has to counter Zest because he'd rip through most people, so Signum's out, someone has to hold off the two strongest Numbers and get to Scaglietti, so Fate's out.. what forces?
An even better description. Thanks, Thisguy!:D
- Hmm... Could this mean that maybe Agitp woule be really compatible with Signum later?:D
- Understood. And there are other squads after all.
- Judging by her condition, I'm worried if Vita can pull of a reactor-buster or not...:uhoh:
- And the fleet sure is taking their sweet time.:heh: At least Arf and Yuuno are showed.:DGundam Wing comes to mind... What happens when you have to take out a reactor, but you're badly beaten and out of ammo? :uhoh:
:upset:
Gundam Wing comes to mind... What happens when you have to take out a reactor, but you're badly beaten and out of ammo? :uhoh:
:upset:
Er, something I forgot to mention - Vita only has 3 cartridges (iirc) left, which is what she was checking when she got impaled from behind.
Aaron008R
2007-08-19, 12:35
Gundam Wing comes to mind... What happens when you have to take out a reactor, but you're badly beaten and out of ammo? :uhoh:
:upset:
In short, we (the OC Thread) is screwed if Vita pulls an Epyon.:upset:
Er, something I forgot to mention - Vita only has 3 cartridges (iirc) left, which is what she was checking when she got impaled from behind.Holi Shyt. :twitch:
...Also, Fate suggests the possibility of Jail controling Vivio, in such case, arresting Jail can be equal to stoping Cradle itself, without taking risk of going against Cradle at full and more quickly too.
So, arresting Jail may also have importance in that dire situation.
Not to mention that pretty much everyone except RF6 personnels have practically ZERO combat experience against SKJ, or Heavy-AMF-ing Drones.
So, yes, RF6 has to help them too, or Numbers and Drones will rip capital apart.
(Both are explained so in actual episode, although I'm quoting rather vaguely)
FlareKnight
2007-08-19, 12:41
Well things are getting serious again. Vita's taken a bad hit from behind and now has to beat through all the opponents. But of course when Vita gets seriously pissed there isn't much in existence that can get in her way. Hope Vita can get out of this, she's really one likable character.
Teana is in pretty tough straights as well. I swear sneak attacks from above seem to be our dual-wielding numbers specialty. At any rate it's not going to be easy to hold out since her mobility is shot right now with that ankle. All she can do I guess is try to keep them occupied while everyone else does what they need to do.
Plus looks like the turning Lutecia to the good guys has begun in earnest. With Erio and Caro giving I'd assume the friendship stuff. Though I'd say they should hurry things up with Teana in a ridiculous amount of trouble.
Yeah I'd say Agito was just surprised to see a flame using knight. Maybe someone she could see herself joining with.
In terms of Vita's cartridges. I counted four in her hand but when she was speared from behind you do hear a sound like something dropping on the ground. So she might only have three in her hands, whatever is loaded in Eisen, and the one dropped on the floor to finish this off.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-19, 12:42
So if the Cradle is the time sensitive target then that should be the main objective. Almost all of RF6's forces should be sent to the Cradle with limited attacks on the other two areas to pin the Jail's remaining forces.
Yes, but going after both doesn't do any good if they lose in either area as those forces they used where they lost could have been used to increase their chances of winning at the other location. It greatly increases the chances of losing in both areas. Then there's also that third objective they're after.
Actually, the Cradle is the time sensitive target, but there are several ways for getting at it. I'd actually go for the ground pounding team first, because for what little I'd know of Scarlietti's objective, he has another ace up his sleeve waiting for him at HQ, so I'd still stop that probe. Further, that probe is easy to stop so I can get that thorn out of my back with minimal time loss (if I use transporters - I know they've got transporters on Asura). With the aces, I can clean that up in about a minute or two. Then all the aces go and hit Zest while the Forwards mop up. Using N-square, Zest won't last more than a few minutes. After that, I can choose between HQ and Cradle.
Gearhead
2007-08-19, 12:45
Thus the problem of the Land Force being completely unprepared because Regius was counting on the Einherjar replacing the need for 'special training' and 'special mages.'
1) Cradle needs to be stopped or slowed, requiring a team in that direction. 2) The Capital needs defense, requiring a team in that direction. 3) Someone needs to stop Jail before he gets away to pull some other stunt later, requiring a team over there too.
The Cradle is the biggest threat, so the heaviest hitters go there. The Capital already has some folks in place, and is a somewhat lesser problem, so they send more 'average powered' but specially trained personnel that way. And Jail already has someone outside his base, trying to kill his dudes, so the lightest amount of backup goes there.
These are desperation tactics, because the whole Bureau really HAS been backed into a corner.
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 12:46
I dunno, they seem to be setting up Vita for "I destroy all the enemies, but I'm too injured to reach the Reactor, fall down, makes everyone think she died, etc"
Then again, since there's like...100000 Drones inside and outside, it'd be strange if she falls and nothing comes up to stealth-kill her.
Actually, the Cradle is the time sensitive target, but there are several ways for getting at it. I'd actually go for the ground pounding team first, because for what little I'd know of Scarlietti's objective, he has another ace up his sleeve waiting for him at HQ, so I'd still stop that probe. Further, that probe is easy to stop so I can get that thorn out of my back with minimal time loss (if I use transporters - I know they've got transporters on Asura). With the aces, I can clean that up in about a minute or two. Then all the aces go and hit Zest while the Forwards mop up. Using N-square, Zest won't last more than a few minutes. After that, I can choose between HQ and Cradle.That said and done, notice that we're squeezing 11-14 characters a side into a single frame, thus diluting the character building. :heh:
Ah yes how reality limits storytelling. The reason why IRL usually is boring. :heh:
Deathkillz
2007-08-19, 12:52
zomg what just happened :twitch:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/786/2363uq8.th.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2363uq8.jpg) http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9811/37635za9.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=37635za9.jpg) http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3387/25246vd6.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=25246vd6.jpg) http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5074/34565av2.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=34565av2.jpg)
*heart attack*
arkhangelsk
2007-08-19, 12:52
Did you miss the part where I said that the only people who can operate under the AMF's condition are the extremely strong mages - Hayate can't do close quarter combat, so she's out, someone has to counter Zest because he'd rip through most people, so Signum's out, someone has to hold off the two strongest Numbers and get to Scaglietti, so Fate's out.. what forces?
Wrong CONOPS. If you are an artillery battalion with an overwhelming target list, you don't solve it by pointing two or three guns in all directions. You use as many guns as can practically be concentrated onto one target and hit them in turn. When you do that, you actually maximize shock effect, save time and save ammo - in other words you are more effective. Same thing here.
Use the transporters (instead of flying and having little conversations) to minimize time loss in retargeting and go for the targets in turn. You'd find that all the targets falling relatively easily in relatively short periods of time, leaving you the time and resources to go after the Cradle, perhaps the toughest target, in good time and nearly fresh. Any time and power loss will be greatly compensated by the fact you can have everyone on the job.
Gearhead
2007-08-19, 13:01
Wrong CONOPS. If you are an artillery battalion with an overwhelming target list, you don't solve it by pointing two or three guns in all directions. You use as many guns as can practically be concentrated onto one target and hit them in turn. When you do that, you actually maximize shock effect, save time and save ammo - in other words you are more effective. Same thing here.
Problem:
1) If you swat Cradle out of the sky you run the risk of killing Vivio. :uhoh:
2) While you're amassing your forces to vape Cradle the Numbers have gotten into the city and have rendered bombardment useless against them. :twitch:
3) While you're retasking to chase the Numbers down in urban combat Jail sneaks off to find something else to throw at you at a later date. :frustrated:
Wrong CONOPS. If you are an artillery battalion with an overwhelming target list, you don't solve it by pointing two or three guns in all directions. You use as many guns as can practically be concentrated onto one target and hit them in turn. When you do that, you actually maximize shock effect, save time and save ammo - in other words you are more effective. Same thing here.
Use the transporters (instead of flying and having little conversations) to minimize time loss in retargeting and go for the targets in turn. You'd find that all the targets falling relatively easily in relatively short periods of time, leaving you the time and resources to go after the Cradle, perhaps the toughest target, in good time and nearly fresh. Any time and power loss will be greatly compensated by the fact you can have everyone on the job.That said, we don't know how long it takes to rearm the transporters, or what's the effective range of those things... :heh:
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 13:05
Did you miss the part where I said that the only people who can operate under the AMF's condition are the extremely strong mages - Hayate can't do close quarter combat, so she's out, someone has to counter Zest because he'd rip through most people, so Signum's out, someone has to hold off the two strongest Numbers and get to Scaglietti, so Fate's out.. what forces?
If Zest is that important, then send enough forces to defeat him decisively. Otherwise don't bother at all.
There's no point in sending Fate after Jail if she can't capture or disable him. Instead a minimum of forces should be used to keep him there until the main forces are finished with the Cradle. Hayate would probably be ideal for that while unisoned with Rein. She doesn't even need to defeat the numbers. She just needs to keep Jail from moving. Fate and Signum probably could both be sent to the Cradle.
While RF6's mission may be clear, the mission is not dictating the objective. The objectives are being assigned haphazardly at best.
3) While you're retasking to chase the Numbers down in urban combat Jail sneaks off to find something else to throw at you at a later date. :frustrated:
WHen you're as cornered as RF6 is, you go for the immediate threats. A future potential threat is less important.
WHen you're as cornered as RF6 is, you go for the immediate threats. A future potential threat is less important.And drag the series by a few episodes, and when they run out of budget we get crappy animation for an EVA finale! :twitch: :uhoh: :heh:
arkhangelsk
2007-08-19, 13:14
Problem:
1) If you swat Cradle out of the sky you run the risk of killing Vivio. :uhoh:
a) Vivio isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. If killing the Cradle means killing Vivio - uh, Nanoha, be professional.
b) Cradle attack tactics are not limited to destruction. In any case, I doubt the Cradle got its reputation by being destroyable with human mage firepower. The point is to have maximum force available to engage the Cradle.
2) While you're amassing your forces to vape Cradle the Numbers have gotten into the city and have rendered bombardment useless against them. :twitch:
That's why you engage the ground pounding Numbers first, since they were so nicely in the open. But if it comes down to it, given a world destroying threat, if it comes down to destroying a few hectares of city, so be it.
3) While you're retasking to chase the Numbers down in urban combat Jail sneaks off to find something else to throw at you at a later date. :frustrated:
1) Immediate threats as mentioned.
2) If you finish the ground pounding Numbers fast, you can quickly come to his base and make a fast storm of it instead of slugging it through slowly (if at all). Good correlation of forces equals high rate of advance. Poor correlation of forces means defeat or at best a creep advance rate. The Soviets actually have a nomogram depicting this basic principle of war. Conclusion, you may well actually get to him faster this way.
Gearhead
2007-08-19, 13:14
There's no point in sending Fate after Jail if she can't capture or disable him.
An Enforcer is a one mage army. Of COURSE she's there to stomp him into the ground. I fully expect everything short of 'Aku wo tatsu tsurugi' when she gets there.
Hayate would probably be ideal for that while unisoned with Rein. She doesn't even need to defeat the numbers. She just needs to keep Jail from moving.
Except that Hayate has the subtly of a thermonuclear weapon. Unisoned with Rein she's a doomsday weapon and she wouldn't be able to hold Jail because Jail knows they want to capture him. Hayate's lightest attack spell would probably erase his base from the face of the planet.
They need to disable, but not destroy, the Cradle. Which requires a surgical strike by people with experience in assaulting hostile installations.
They need a group of people who can fight in urban warfare situations against the Numbers.
They also need some more bodies at Jail's base to grab him before he squirms loose. They don't want him dead because they want to pick his brain to find out what he's left behind as a spoilsport measure.
Key Board
2007-08-19, 13:15
Caro vs Lutecia: Panzer Dragon
Subaru vs Ginga: Street Fighter
Teana vs Nove, Wendi, Deed and bunch of Gadjets: Metal Gear Solid on hardest difficulty
and Scag obviously played Blizzard games before
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 13:18
Well, it's not like RF6 were completely informed of everything prior to mission assignment. They learned of the extra powerful AMF upon entering, and the separate Reactor/Throne after that too. Otherwise, a better planning could had been in order. Vita was being ridiculously stubborn too, I suppose.
On a lighter note, lol at yuri-vision for Teana and Subaru. :heh:
Gearhead
2007-08-19, 13:18
Vivio isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. If killing the Cradle means killing Vivio - uh, Nanoha, be professional.
Did you just suggest the title character leaving a small, defenseless child hanging out to dry in what is, still, essentially a magical girl series? :D
arkhangelsk
2007-08-19, 13:19
That said, we don't know how long it takes to rearm the transporters, or what's the effective range of those things... :heh:
Well, transport distances can be interdimensional even with purely human resources and takes less than a minute to set up from what we've seen onscreen - I'm sure a computer and a ship will do better (when the TSAB guys got ambushed in Nanoha's, they seemed to have pulled them out fast and without problems).
Further I think all aces/knights except Hayate and Nanoha had already demonstrated self-transport ability (and I'd be shocked if those two hadn't learnt it these ten years). So Plan B is that they just drop the Forwards off against the Numbers and have the Aces and Knights do self-transport (Shamal can transport the Forwards around if need be).
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 13:20
Problem:
1) If you swat Cradle out of the sky you run the risk of killing Vivio. :uhoh:
That's all the more reason to concentrate on the Cradle. Rescuing Vivio would require even more forces than merely destroying the Cradle. If you're going to rescue Vivio, you make sure you have enough powerful mages to overcome any obstacles at the Cradle and do it fast.
2) While you're amassing your forces to vape Cradle the Numbers have gotten into the city and have rendered bombardment useless against them. :twitch:
3) While you're retasking to chase the Numbers down in urban combat Jail sneaks off to find something else to throw at you at a later date. :frustrated:
When you have limited forces, you need to limit your objectives accordingly. Sending forces on a secondary mission is not worth the risk of losing one of the decisive battles.
You can never have enough forces at the decisive point.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-19, 13:23
Did you just suggest the title character leaving a small, defenseless child hanging out to dry in what is, still, essentially a magical girl series? :D
Yes, but if we are grading this based on Magical Girl series, their attempt to "protect everyone" even by spreading themselves thin is stereotypical MG fare and thus a pass. Since we are grading on something close to tactical standards...
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 13:31
An Enforcer is a one mage army. Of COURSE she's there to stomp him into the ground. I fully expect everything short of 'Aku wo tatsu tsurugi' when she gets there.
She didn't do too well against those two numbers the last time around. What logic tells you that this would be any different?
Except that Hayate has the subtly of a thermonuclear weapon. Unisoned with Rein she's a doomsday weapon and she wouldn't be able to hold Jail because Jail knows they want to capture him. Hayate's lightest attack spell would probably erase his base from the face of the planet.
I don't really see a problem with that.
They need to disable, but not destroy, the Cradle. Which requires a surgical strike by people with experience in assaulting hostile installations.
All the more reason to send Fate there.
They need a group of people who can fight in urban warfare situations against the Numbers.
That's a far lesser threat than the other ones they're facing. What are they going to do? Destroy empty buildings?
They also need some more bodies at Jail's base to grab him before he squirms loose. They don't want him dead because they want to pick his brain to find out what he's left behind as a spoilsport measure.
Hayate can make sure he won't ever leave under his own power.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 13:34
Did you just suggest the title character leaving a small, defenseless child hanging out to dry in what is, still, essentially a magical girl series? :D
In OC thread I suggested blasting the Cradle with Arc-en-Ciel ASAP :rolleyes:
- - -
On topic: after watching the episode I can hardly imagine Vita getting out of this mess without serious consequnces ...
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-19, 13:34
Wow... 1-2 hours out of the episode and you're already finding fault with them... :eyebrow: :rolleyes:?
Tell me, you've seen this coming a mile away, everybody has... Were you two just saving it all up so the both can rant about it when it actually happens?
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 13:36
Wow... 1-2 hours out of the episode and you're already finding fault with them... :eyebrow: :rolleyes:?
I like Hayate but I can't help it if she's portrayed as an incompetent commander :(
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-19, 13:38
I like Hayate but I can't help it if she's portrayed as an incompetent commander :(
To a normal, average anime-watcher, the tactics involve are reasonable enough.
This show wasn't meant to impress the other types of humans.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 13:39
Wow... 1-2 hours out of the episode and you're already finding fault with them... :eyebrow: :rolleyes:?
Tell me, you've seen this coming a mile away, everybody has, were you just saving it all up so you two can rant about it when it actually happens?
Heh, I'm actually glad that RF6 is performing ineffectively (again :rolleyes:). But I agree with the mentioned points that they could've theoretically planned their actions better. The episode itself is really good though.
- - -
Ah, I kinda missed it - what exactly made Hayate considerably exhausted there? Was she performing her nukes off-screen?
Gearhead
2007-08-19, 13:42
Applying real tactics to a magical girl show is kind of like bringing up real physics.
All it does is kill catgirls.
Sit back and watch the girls bring about a miracle.
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 13:51
Wow... 1-2 hours out of the episode and you're already finding fault with them... :eyebrow: :rolleyes:?
Tell me, you've seen this coming a mile away, everybody has... Were you two just saving it all up so the both can rant about it when it actually happens?
It's called dissection with love. :rolleyes:
While I can see the overall flaws that was necessary to the conditional team-separation for different location battles, due to half the cast lacking flight abilities and the tone and approach they were going for since this is anime being anime, I thought it wasn't too bad in a way.
First off, information was shown to be inefficiently managed. Some vitals came after deployment like the extra-powerful AMF which reduces mage effectiveness (( upon discovery )) and the separation due to location difference, alongside with Vita's ridiculous insistence. It can be argued that it might've been different had they known all along.
Jail not attempting to escape was a little lol last episode due to him being ALONE, but it does look like he has some important specimens, and it does seem like a large complex. Utilizing Sein for indirect combat assist was a little... since it is a pair of above AAA mages, but I'll give slack.
The Forwards can't really be anywhere else but dealing with the grounds, since even Caro and Elio are not exactly that effective in air. An army of Type-2s seem to be capable of outranging them even. The weaker Numbers were shown to be highlighted in a more tactical light, handling the team separation and the threat of Subaru's IS well using Ginga...well, so long as there's no "power of love awakening" device at hand.
My assessment of the situation:
They can't risk getting bogged down at any stage if they try to take the objectives in turn. Ark assumes the defense of the capital will be brief, maybe yes, maybe no. What if the objective of the threat on the capital is merely to draw away forces from the Cradle long enough for it to reach its firing position? Strategically, I'd be willing to leave the capital to its fate. Hope I can neutralise Scaglietti and the Cradle then return to the Capital before it's too late. But I don't think anyone in RF6 is willing to leave the Capital nearly helpless. So someone has to go, that's why they sent the ones that would make the least difference in additional combat capability there, plus one senior combatant.
Scaglietti and the Cradle has to be dealt with at the same time. They don't what contingency plan he has for the Cradle if he dies prematurely. They also don't know what backup plan he has in case they neutralize the Cradle in time. This way, they have teams in place in both locations should any such plans get executed.
In conclusion, it's a bad situation, it can't be changed, so do your best with what you got. Perhaps Hayate should have had a larger force to begin with, but since episode 4, it looks like RF6's squads are the largest she could hope to get.
PS. Ark's analogy with an artillery battalion is inaccurate. That's a force with units with uniform cambat power. RF6 is a mixed force with units with varying capabilities and weaknesses. Try a small force of tanks, infantry and fighter planes instead. Facing HUGE armies of tanks, soldiers and planes coming from 3 different directions.
And look at it from a dramatic point of view. The more dire the situation, the greater the victory! Nothing makes the viewers cheer like snatching victory from the jaws of defeat!
Gearhead
2007-08-19, 14:07
Of course.. we're all just waiting for the moment when Subaru finally goes.. 'For a very long time.. I was afraid. I was afraid I wasn't brave. I was afraid of being afraid.. But now I understand that being brave is being afraid and doing what you have to do anyway. And VICTORY goes to THE COURAGEOUS!'
Of course.. we're all just waiting for the moment when Subaru finally goes.. 'For a very long time.. I was afraid. I was afraid I wasn't brave. I was afraid of being afraid.. But now I understand that being brave is being afraid and doing what you have to do anyway. And VICTORY goes to THE COURAGEOUS!'I'll definitely be saying "ABOUT TIME, EVOLUDER!!!" :D
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 14:24
My assessment of the situation:
They can't risk getting bogged down at any stage if they try to take the objectives in turn. Ark assumes the defense of the capital will be brief, maybe yes, maybe no. What if the objective of the threat on the capital is merely to draw away forces from the Cradle long enough for it to reach its firing position? Strategically, I'd be willing to leave the capital to its fate.
Agreed, they can't afford to get bogged down but uncertainty will always be present. It is rarely possible to obtain exact information on the enemy situation. Better however, to have a faulty plan or decision permeated with boldness, daring, and decisiveness than a perfect plan enmeshed with uncertainty. The plan Hayate used is faulty and neither bold, daring nor decisive and violates innumerable tactical principles.
Hope I can neutralise Scaglietti and the Cradle then return to the Capital before it's too late. But I don't think anyone in RF6 is willing to leave the Capital nearly helpless. So someone has to go, that's why they sent the ones that would make the least difference in additional combat capability there, plus one senior combatant.
The teleporters would let the forwards act as a reserve. What they want to do shouldn't really matter at all. Poor discipline is a sign of poor leadership.
Scaglietti and the Cradle has to be dealt with at the same time. They don't what contingency plan he has for the Cradle if he dies prematurely. They also don't know what backup plan he has in case they neutralize the Cradle in time. This way, they have teams in place in both locations should any such plans get executed.
That's why it is always a sound idea to have a reserve. During the course of a battle concentration of fire and the committment of their reserve are the most direct way for a commander to influence the action.
In conclusion, it's a bad situation, it can't be changed, so do your best with what you got. Perhaps Hayate should have had a larger force to begin with, but since episode 4, it looks like RF6's squads are the largest she could hope to get.
Hayate can't dictate what forces she has available but she can dictate what she does with them.
And look at it from a dramatic point of view. The more dire the situation, the greater the victory! Nothing makes the viewers cheer like snatching victory from the jaws of defeat!
I would have hoped that they would have used a better way of getting to that point than by making Hayate a non-entity as a commander.
Key Board
2007-08-19, 14:25
It's interesting several how several RF6 members are fighting with handicaps
Subaru, has a no IS use rule she imposed on herself.
Fate is fighting against 2 numbers
Nanoha is within the presence of AMF
and Teana's circumstances is just brutal
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-19, 14:35
Oh well, I've tried.
At least it would increase the number of posts for this episode.
It's interesting how several RF6 members are fighting with handicaps
Subaru, has a no IS use rule she imposed on herself.
Fate is fighting against 2 numbers
Nanoha is within the presence of AMF
and Teana's circumstances is just brutal
Subaru's one is a no brainer. Nanoha's predicament would explain the mess she's in base on the next episode's spoiler.
And I've pretty sure they're pushing Teana to have her show off her leet illusion skills again to even the odds, and that she's a thinker.
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 14:40
It's interesting several how several RF6 members are fighting with handicaps
Subaru, has a no IS use rule she imposed on herself.
Fate is fighting against 2 numbers
Nanoha is within the presence of AMF
and Teana's circumstances is just brutal
Well,being a Number is a handicap on its own in a way, since they're not versatile at all bar their special techniques, while mages in general has more tricks here and there, which is why they cover that with numbers anyway, pun intended.
Though it is strange why there's no like...super AMF installed at Jail's base. I can understand not having a permanent one due to Lutecia and possible detection, but otherwise, he seems to have enough complex to fit in some concentrated AMFs around.
Key Board
2007-08-19, 14:42
probably because unlike the cradle, it doesn't have enough power to sustain one 24/7?
FlareKnight
2007-08-19, 14:44
Not to mention Vita's minor handicap of having a hole in her chest. They've really stacked the deck on Teana who was having enough problems 2 on 1. But now with more drones and another number it's just ridiculous. You'd almost expect someone to come in and help her though I'm not sure if anyone is free at the moment.
Key Board
2007-08-19, 15:03
Well,being a Number is a handicap on its own in a way, since they're not versatile at all bar their special techniques, while mages in general has more tricks here and there, which is why they cover that with numbers anyway, pun intended.
Otto seems versatile: she has been shown to be capable of binds, erecting barriers and some display of organization leader skills. Maybe she is a general purpose model?
Gearhead
2007-08-19, 15:29
Otto's the most recent development. She might be a special case.
And at some point Subaru is totally going to stop holding back... especially if she finds an opportunity to use Oscillating Breaker without killing Gin.
It seems like blade duet (7 and 12) are pretty much dead...
Perhaps Hayate should have had a larger force to begin with
And perharps Chrono should start considering the idea of doing something?
And perharps Chrono should start considering the idea of doing something?
The fleet's on the way. They can't do much more then that.
FlareKnight
2007-08-19, 19:14
Troublesome with Vita running low on cartridges at such a time. You'd think with a major fight looming they'd have ample amount for everyone to use.
I'm sure Chrono is on his way. Stuck in the position of moving the fleet though hopefully he'll show up with time to get involved in the fighting.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-19, 19:15
My assessment of the situation:
They can't risk getting bogged down at any stage if they try to take the objectives in turn. Ark assumes the defense of the capital will be brief, maybe yes, maybe no. What if the objective of the threat on the capital is merely to draw away forces from the Cradle long enough for it to reach its firing position? Strategically, I'd be willing to leave the capital to its fate.
Given the correlation of forces if they had involved everyone, the chances of Jail's Capital Team being able to delay RF6 for long is minimal. All commanders have to deal with risk.
I'm aware that 80%+ chance is that this is just a delay tactic or Scarlietti is just going for some RF6 leadership, so I've considered leaving his Capital Team alone. On the other hand, they are easily eliminated and I would think it reasonable to try and eliminate the 20% of uncertainty using 5-8 minutes. Besides, like you said, there's the sentimental factor.
Scaglietti and the Cradle has to be dealt with at the same time. They don't what contingency plan he has for the Cradle if he dies prematurely. They also don't know what backup plan he has in case they neutralize the Cradle in time. This way, they have teams in place in both locations should any such plans get executed.
At least he won't be in command. Any contingency plan he can execute upon his death can be executed while he's alive, but not vice versa. If I get his Cradle then at least he only has the plans he can execute without the Cradle, and so on. So, stopping at least one prong fast (Scarlietti looks like the more promising and faster to handle prong BTW) is better than being bogged down at both prongs and letting him retain all his options.
In conclusion, it's a bad situation, it can't be changed, so do your best with what you got. Perhaps Hayate should have had a larger force to begin with, but since episode 4, it looks like RF6's squads are the largest she could hope to get.
PS. Ark's analogy with an artillery battalion is inaccurate. That's a force with units with uniform cambat power. RF6 is a mixed force with units with varying capabilities and weaknesses. Try a small force of tanks, infantry and fighter planes instead. Facing HUGE armies of tanks, soldiers and planes coming from 3 different directions.
I used an artillery battalion, but the law of N-square and correlation of forces are the same. A small force doesn't win by trying to defend across the front. It uses a mobile defense and concentrates to ambush the enemy again and again at critical times, slips in behind them to attack their lines ... but the point is adequate concentration at at least one point.
Dark Wing
2007-08-19, 19:27
Troublesome with Vita running low on cartridges at such a time. You'd think with a major fight looming they'd have ample amount for everyone to use.
Well assuming Vita actually fights her way to the reactor it would be so freaking awesome if she pulled a Wing Zero. Don't you think? :cool:
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 19:35
A small force doesn't win by trying to defend across the front. It uses a mobile defense and concentrates to ambush the enemy again and again at critical times, slips in behind them to attack their lines ... but the point is adequate concentration at at least one point.
It's clear that the scenarists are simply going for the dramatic effect of the heroes being outnumbered and handicapped across all the front. So they've deliberately chosen to split their forces to make them have troubles with every task instead of dealing with them one after another relatively easily.
They've really stacked the deck on Teana who was having enough problems 2 on 1. But now with more drones and another number it's just ridiculous. You'd almost expect someone to come in and help her though I'm not sure if anyone is free at the moment.
Maybe Vice's role is not yet finished....:naughty:. I still wonder why there's a relationship between Teana & Vice.
Or maybe a last-minute assistance from human-form Zafira/Arf?
Great episode, and that's exactly how you do a "holy shit" moment. Out of nowhere, vicious, and shocking, even though I'm sure she will pull through.
Also, Teana is totally one of my favorite characters, why is she stuck fighting three of the beasties. Hell, Fate only has to fight two. :-(
Caps etc
http://blog.seiha.org/?p=277
Maybe Vice's role is not yet finished....:naughty:. I still wonder why there's a relationship between Teana & Vice.
Or maybe a last-minute assistance from human-form Zafira/Arf?
For now, Zafira and Vice are pretty much unconscious and unable to move. Arf's role seems to be intelligence gathering more than fighting, and anyway, I don't see how she could arrive faster than Chrono.
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 20:28
For now, Zafira and Vice are pretty much unconscious and unable to move. Arf's role seems to be intelligence gathering more than fighting, and anyway, I don't see how she could arrive faster than Chrono.
Don't they have teleporters at HQ?
But yeah, unless Arf suddenly got her guardian-wolf senses tingling like crazy or something, it doesn't look like she'll go.
Don't they have teleporters at HQ?
They should. But for some reason, it seems that nobody use teleporters in these late episodes.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 20:37
They should. But for some reason, it seems that nobody use teleporters in these late episodes.
And in previous seasons some mages could also teleport by themselves, but in StrikerS they seem to forget about this trick :rolleyes: It's understandable with the Cradle and AMF but has no excuses for other locations.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-19, 20:42
And in previous seasons some mages could also teleport by themselves, but in StrikerS they seem to forget about this trick :rolleyes: It's understandable with the Cradle and AMF but has no excuses for other locations.
But aren't those usually high level mages only?
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 20:43
They should. But for some reason, it seems that nobody use teleporters in these late episodes.
Well, I'll just assume it can't be continually used, and since the backup consist of fleets, it's probably far more important than sending in several goons through teleporters, while the honchos like Chrono are needed for leading, and not going solo. On the other hand, Yuuno's busy with RL-updates on Cradle, and Arf doesn't seem all that worried, thus reducing the chances for the old team's involvement unless some shit turns up.
Well, Lutecia seems to be the only one using teleportation spells these days.
But aren't those usually high level mages only?
Lutecia. Yuuno.
And that's only if we consider the ones who can do plural teleportation.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-19, 20:52
Well, I'll just assume it can't be continually used, and since the backup consist of fleets, it's probably far more important than sending in several goons through teleporters, while the honchos like Chrono are needed for leading, and not going solo. On the other hand, Yuuno's busy with RL-updates on Cradle, and Arf doesn't seem all that worried, thus reducing the chances for the old team's involvement unless some shit turns up.
It's still possible for Chrono to go solo somewhere. After all, he has his mom to cover for him :p
As for Yuuno... Well it's a long shot, but No. 2 is still around the HQ right?
Lutecia. Yuuno.
And that's only if we consider the ones who can do plural teleportation.
Sorry, 'skilled' mages then.
After all, there's such thing as a AAA ranked not being able to fly...
it seems that nobody use teleporters in these late episodes.
That's because any critical location under attack is covered by AMF-equipped drones. They probably render it impossible to make the pinpoint teleportation neccessary to make tactical teleportation useful.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 20:59
Well, Lutecia seems to be the only one using teleportation spells these days.
Ah, forgot about her. Though she's using flying drones as transport in many cases where teleportation would've been much better, like evacuation after assault on RF6 HQ.
Ripped out the two Tea fight scenes if you're impatient.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEmA6FCDHiw
Avatar_notADV
2007-08-19, 21:10
RF6's always had something of a weird force structure - three obscenely heavy hitters, a couple of pretty good fighters, and a few make-weights (better than what they're rated, but not even in the same league as the others.) This means that disposing of them according to traditional military convention is stupid - if there's a threat on the battlefield that requires a Nanoha or a Hayate to counter, then none of the forwards have any business being in the area at all. Conversely, sending Nanoha or Fate after something that Subaru or Teana can handle is a waste of resources - swatting flies with a sledgehammer.
Keep in mind there's four "fronts", as it were - stopping Numbers, attacking Scag, confronting Cradle, killing drones. They're not mutually-supporting in that anyone doing one of the tasks will be unavailable to help out on the others. (Not true for Jail's fronts - the Cradle will presumably Do Something Bad if it gets where it's going, whatever the Numbers are going after must be important, and ignoring the drones means they'll go shoot up your other teams - not so good, overall.)
Having Hayate bust up huge swarms of drones is absolutely a good use of her abilities. Even an S+ like Nanoha has to mix it up in dogfights with clouds of those things, whereas Hayate can point and pwn whole groups of 'em. In any other application, Hayate's damage output is limited by nearby collateral (especially friendlies!), but she can do this until she keels over or Scag runs out of drones... and if he really has that many drones, then a team of a dozen combatants weren't ever gonna stop him in the first place.
Fate is probably the best person to send after Scag - not just because of combat power, but because the Numbers that are there may hang back a little on her. (They want to befriend -Fate-, not the other way around!) Same with Scag - Fate's a person to him, even if it's an artificially-created-project-F person, not just another TSAB heavy.
That leaves Nanoha for Cradle-robbing. Can't send the forwards - if they WIN and it crashes, they croak. The only available personnel then are Nanoha, Vita, and Signum - and if you send Signum, then it's Vita versus Zest again, and that didn't go so well last time, no? (This ignores the difficulty of getting Vita off Nanoha's six, but there you go.)
So the only uncommitted personnel are the forwards, who aren't suitable for attacking the Cradle (and would be totally useless if they went anyway), who can't fight off swarms of flying drones 'cause they can't fly, and who you don't want to send at Jail's base because he's trying to snatch them as it is. They might as well engage the loose Numbers, no? It's either that or sit at home with a thumb up their butts.
Avatar_notADV
2007-08-19, 21:24
As for teleportation, it's obvious that the writers haven't thought through the implications of being able to 'port around fighters on a massive scale - in other words, it's being used as a plot device. We know that it's not in widespread use, because nobody teleports anywhere casually, not even mages; even Fate and Hayate have cars and use them. It's possible that it's really magic-intensive, or alternately that it's just not allowed on Midchilda proper - if you were running a detection network to try to pinpoint people warping in, then five billion commuters would ruin your day. (But this is an emergency, man!)
The real question is, where in the hell is everyone else while this is going on? The Numbers bugged out from Ground HQ when a lot of S-type mages showed up, so presumably they'll pop in eventually... but is it just another case of "the writers keeping the reinforcements back until the last minute/until it's too late"? Theoretically anybody who can light up a candle ought to be out there downin' drones.
They are there, but thanks to citywide AMF generated by the drones, anyone with less than B or C rank probably can't even cast magic right now. Even the higher ranking ones probably need time to adjust to fighting under AMF conditions. All thanks to Reguis for cancelling the funding for AMF combat training.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-19, 21:41
RF6's always had something of a weird force structure - three obscenely heavy hitters, a couple of pretty good fighters, and a few make-weights (better than what they're rated, but not even in the same league as the others.)
You've got that part right.
This means that disposing of them according to traditional military convention is stupid - if there's a threat on the battlefield that requires a Nanoha or a Hayate to counter, then none of the forwards have any business being in the area at all. Conversely, sending Nanoha or Fate after something that Subaru or Teana can handle is a waste of resources - swatting flies with a sledgehammer.
The first part is correct. The 2nd part here is incorrect. If you insist on a "positional" defense, handling the problems in parallel, then yes that's the best possible positional defense (which is why it is less mind-numbingly stupid than Ep17, which is probably why we waited till Ep21 and saw them getting beat up before we started to really groan), but the correct solution is really a mobile strategy.
Sending Nanoha and Fate to help the Forwards is not a waste. Their presence tilts the deck so massively that the situation will be resolved in seconds with minimal expenditure by all our heroines (not just the aces) instead of dragging on in uncertainty. Overkill speeds up actions.
Keep in mind there's four "fronts", as it were - stopping Numbers, attacking Scag, confronting Cradle, killing drones. They're not mutually-supporting in that anyone doing one of the tasks will be unavailable to help out on the others. (Not true for Jail's fronts - the Cradle will presumably Do Something Bad if it gets where it's going, whatever the Numbers are going after must be important, and ignoring the drones means they'll go shoot up your other teams - not so good, overall.)
Handle it in sequence using fast teleportation redeployment, not parallel, then. Inadequate CoF means slow advance rates and heavy casualties on all fronts. Good CoF means quick, easy victories, leaving you nearly fresh for everything else. When you split up too much, you think you are handling everything but you are in fact handling nothing or at best handling it poorly.
If you insist on teleportation being power intensive despite absolutely no evidence of it, then use Shamal who's just about healed to do the transports - she transported the sodding mass that was the Book of Darkness - a few humans can't be that bad.
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 22:39
RF6's always had something of a weird force structure - three obscenely heavy hitters, a couple of pretty good fighters, and a few make-weights (better than what they're rated, but not even in the same league as the others.)
Yes, it is weird.
This means that disposing of them according to traditional military convention is stupid - if there's a threat on the battlefield that requires a Nanoha or a Hayate to counter, then none of the forwards have any business being in the area at all. Conversely, sending Nanoha or Fate after something that Subaru or Teana can handle is a waste of resources - swatting flies with a sledgehammer.
Overmatch is good. Really good. The greater the disparity in combat power, the faster you'll win. Superior combat power allows for greater force and mobility. The faster you deal with each threat, the more combat power you'll have to redeploy to face the threats. The bulk of their combat power already happens to be concentrated in their most mobile elements. As if the superiority of their mobile forces wasn't enough, they also have teleporters available.
Keep in mind there's four "fronts", as it were - stopping Numbers, attacking Scag, confronting Cradle, killing drones. They're not mutually-supporting in that anyone doing one of the tasks will be unavailable to help out on the others. (Not true for Jail's fronts - the Cradle will presumably Do Something Bad if it gets where it's going, whatever the Numbers are going after must be important, and ignoring the drones means they'll go shoot up your other teams - not so good, overall.)
Not all threats are equal or equally urgent. You can never have enough forces at the decisive point. By trying to secure everywhere they risk losing all of the objectives and automatically conceded the element of surprise. Each combat will also take longer giving the enemy even more time to respond. The slow, painful "progress" RF6 is making is a direct result of dispersing their forces.
Jail's forces were already committed and RF6 would have had the freedom of action to concentrate its forces at any of the decisive points it chose. Why risk being defeated in detail when you can take advantage of surprise and superior mobility to crush each enemy force in turn?
It's fine and dandy to tout teleportation, but as someone pointed out earlier, how would you teleport into or past AMFs? They haven't fleshed out details about teleportation allowing it to bypass them, have they?
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 22:47
It's fine and dandy to tout teleportation, but as someone pointed out earlier, how would you teleport into or past AMFs? They haven't fleshed out details about teleportation allowing it to bypass them, have they?
I can only see AMF as a real problem around the Cradle. In the city and the vicinity of Scaglietti's Lab the drones weren't swarming in massive numbers.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-19, 22:49
You can always teleport close, say 500m-2km out to avoid all the AMFs while still committing to battle rapidly. You don't want to teleport right into the battle anyway - you want a little distance to orient yourself and fly into the assault.
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 22:50
It's fine and dandy to tout teleportation, but as someone pointed out earlier, how would you teleport into or past AMFs? They haven't fleshed out details about teleportation allowing it to bypass them, have they?
The only major AMF seems to be inside the Cradle itself. The Aces have no problems flying around any of the other objectives.
You don't need to teleport directly to the objective. You only need to teleport close enough to the area that you'll be able to concentrate your forces and defeat the enemy there before the rest of their forces can respond effectively.
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 22:51
Lutecia can teleport drones, so it's not like under relatively so-so AMF, teleportation becomes completely improbable. Probably yes for thick concentrated AMF, but for a spread-out Drones, there should be probable locations that are more effective than using helicopters. It's not like they need to teleport into the center of all those Drones anyway.
Then again, we can probably assume that no one in RF6 is capable of that.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 22:52
Heh, some rapid answering here :heh:
EDIT:
Then again, we can probably assume that no one in RF6 is capable of that.
Of teleporting? Fate was capable in season 1 and the Wolkies in A's, they even hopped between different worlds all by themselves.
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 22:59
Of teleporting? Fate was capable in season 1 and the Wolkies in A's, they even hopped between different worlds all by themselves.
Okay, actual field officers. Shamal's mainly just the doctor anyway.
And last I recall, Fate's teleportation was singular, unlike Transporter High or something like that which can teleport several.
Well, let's see the active teleporters we have here.
Fate, who we can assume teleported to Scaglietti's lair.
Vita
Signum, who is fighting Zest.
Zafira, Shamal, and Arf, who are included for completeness sake only since they are considered out of the fight.
Yuuno
Lutecia
TSAB ships.
Out of all of these teleporters, the only ones who have teleported more than just themselves are Lutecia, TSAB ships, and the trio of Yuuno, Shamal AND Arf all working at the same time, shoving the defensive program of the Book of Darkness up a giant space tube to be ejected in front of the Arthra.
So if they don't mind stranding the Forwards and Nanoha, I'm sure they can teleport. :)
Serenity85
2007-08-19, 23:22
has anybody else notice that the preview points at a really pissed off Lutecia (shes got the "I'm gonna beat the s*** out of you for some reason" (my guess is they're still trying the befriend via chat then force technique which is getting on Lutecia's nerve^^ The youngings need to the learn blast first befriend later technique perfected by Nanoaha^^)
In terms of how the last eps will work out fight wise, my bets is will get high focus per battle per ep. (this ep set up the fights but jumping from fight for 4-5 eps could get confusing)
ep 21 - Caro/Erio vs Lutecia?Garyu (preview has heavy focus on them, with little tid bits for the others)
22-26 are up in the air as we havn't seen previews yet, but my bets are:
ep 22 - Subaru vs Ginga
ep 23 - Teana vs Nouve/Wendi/Number 6
ep 24 - Vita vs ? (essentially my bets is will see her battle to the reactor whether she gets there is up in the air)
ep 25 - Fate vs Scag
ep 26 - Nanoha and Vivio + Final battle
A couple of these could be clumped together like Vita's allowing ep 25 be Nanoha, Vivio moment and ep 26 being the final fight
any other ideas?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-19, 23:28
@Serenity85
Don't forget that there are still 2 Numbers in 'Cradle' for Nanoha to deal with... And she has to do it under AMF conditions.
And if traditions hold, there won't be any fighting in the last episode :p
Vita probably won't have that much focus if all she'll be facing off is Stealth Drones.
I have high hopes for Team Lightning, I don't want them to be upstaged by Team Stars.
Mirificus
2007-08-19, 23:33
Well, let's see the active teleporters we have here.
...
Out of all of these teleporters, the only ones who have teleported more than just themselves are Lutecia, TSAB ships, and the trio of Yuuno, Shamal AND Arf all working at the same time, shoving the defensive program of the Book of Darkness up a giant space tube to be ejected in front of the Arthra.
So if they don't mind stranding the Forwards and Nanoha, I'm sure they can teleport. :)
No one's suggested teleporting them out of their current predicament. If they were going to take advantage of the teleporters, they should have done it earlier, en masse, so they could all teleport in as a group.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-19, 23:33
Shamal's mainly just the doctor anyway.
She could've helped quite a lot as a mobile teleportation device. Without wasting time on flying Numbers and Jail could've been taken care of by combined RF6 forces, and then all attention could be turned to the Cradle.
Avatar_notADV
2007-08-19, 23:44
Granted that super-nimble use of teleportation would give RF6 a big advantage. On the other hand, you guys are missing the point as far as which threat to confront.
They -can't ignore the Cradle-, because it's a "you all lose" situation if it goes where it's going. Even if you're callous enough to write off Vivio (and have the ten-ton testicles to confront Nanoha afterwards), you can't even assume that the big guns will work on it - if the AMF's powerful enough, it's entirely possible that Hayate's artillery shooting (or an Arc-en-Ciel) would simply fail. And if you're NOT prepared to write Vivio off, you have to get her out now, now, now, because the TSAB as a whole will absolutely kill her off to stop the Cradle - hell, Nanoha and Fate have been in the targeting zone of an Arc shot before, as well as all Nanoha's family, so she oughta know that much.
You can't let Scag go unmolested, because if he pulls the quick fade, next time you've got 20 or 40 or 100 Numbers coming at you instead of a dozen. And you need to find out who the hell his sponsor is, right quick. You don't necessarily have to punch him out instantly - so you certainly can't justify putting your whole force in there - but you do need to pin him in there. There's also the chance of a "big victory" if he sent out all his mobile forces - decapitate the command center, and you might be able to force a surrender (or turn off) the rest of the forces.
You can't ignore the drones. Not only is it really the only thing Hayate can do well (she ain't an indoor fighter, man), but if you leave them unmolested, they'll tear up your other forces and civilian infrastructure.
You COULD afford to let the loose party of Numbers go, sure. But you can't really utilize the forces it frees up for any of your other objectives... they can't fight in the AMF in the Cradle, you can't afford to send them gift-wrapped to Jail, and they're not air-mobile enough to take on the drones (possibly excepting Caro, but Voltaire is one of your final reserves, and they're probably ready for him given ep 17.) So what else are you going to do with them? You can't even pretend to be "holding them in reserve", really, if all the committed forces you have are in areas you can't send your forwards into ANYWAY. You engage the loose Numbers with them, or you tell them to stay home, and that's all there is to it. (And here we're confronted with the stupidity of putting Nanoha and Fate in squads with buck rookies...)
There's an additional danger in getting too fancy with teleportation - especially if you know your enemy is fiddling around with anti-whatever fields. Say they all decided it would be a good idea to rescue Vivio quickly, and they all jumped in... and the AMF pins them all to the Cradle. Sure, they'll rock the Cradle that much faster, but in the meantime Jail gets away, the Numbers hit their objective unobstructed, and the drones tear the ever-loving hell out of a lot of your comrades (and civilians!)
Of course, even if you -can- teleport away, that doesn't mean that engaged forces will. If Nanoha and Fate are two minutes away from pulling Vivio out, you might tell them "we need one of you here right now or the Numbers are going to kill the high command"... but they might not actually go! (Not that killing the TSAB high command wouldn't be a beneficial thing in the long run, idiots that they are...) Disengaging from the enemy is always a tricky business. Setting up a defensive plan where you have to punch out one force, get clear of them, and wheel on another is always tricky... you're quite likely to be unable to disengage, and either get pinned between two forces, or held down while the second force goes off and has a party in your rear area.
(One other point - it's just as dumb for Scag to split off the Numbers, Lulu, and Zest as it is for Hayate to divert forces to stop them. That much more defense would really firm up either his personal guard or the Cradle's close-in defense, or both. So that implies that their objective is important enough to open HIS forces up to a defeat in detail - especially since he can't reasonably expect reinforcements, whereas RF6 will inevitably be reinforced by heavier forces as TSAB gets their head out of their rear.
Unless they can. What the heck is an Einherjar, anyway? Must be pretty cool if Regius is putting his faith in it rather than traditional mages or whatever. If Regius is actually the sponsor of Scag and friends, then it's entirely possible that his trump card will come in on the other side. (Then again, isn't that more unlikely now? If he had the support of the high council, why have Duo kill them off?) That's still our real wild card here, but it's almost certain that they (it?) will show up before the end.
Nightengale
2007-08-19, 23:49
@Serenity85
Don't forget that there are still 2 Numbers in 'Cradle' for Nanoha to deal with... And she has to do it under AMF conditions.
And if traditions hold, there won't be any fighting in the last episode :p
Vita probably won't have that much focus if all she'll be facing off is Stealth Drones.
I have high hopes for Team Lightning, I don't want them to be upstaged by Team Stars.
Technically, it's just one since Quattro's not a combat-type, and unless Deici's reload speed had been upped, she's not really suited for urban shooting, but we'll see.
Elio will probably get the shaft of the Lightning since well...he fights Garyuu. Where's the goddamn drama in that? I expect Garyuu to be defeated or something next episode, or at least something happened to piss Lutecia off. I think there was a light or so sparkling when Lutecia gave the FU look... White Sky King summoning? :D
Vita's fight seem done for most parts. Even if she wins, chances are she won't reach the Reactor nor fight anymore. Now we just need the "OMG that signal loss ...It...can't...be!" to complete the drama package.
Depending on Jail, Fate's fight would probably last 2 episodes while Nanoha's 1 not counting possibly Vivio. There's still the need for OMG REVELATION for Jail and Vivio, which would probably tip the drama scale and such before decisions decisions. Subaru and Teana...it really depends, but I expect all current underdog and last major revalation problems to be finished by the end of episode 24. Signum's too, would probably last 2 episodes.
(One other point - it's just as dumb for Scag to split off the Numbers, Lulu, and Zest as it is for Hayate to divert forces to stop them. That much more defense would really firm up either his personal guard or the Cradle's close-in defense, or both. So that implies that their objective is important enough to open HIS forces up to a defeat in detail - especially since he can't reasonably expect reinforcements, whereas RF6 will inevitably be reinforced by heavier forces as TSAB gets their head out of their rear.
Unless they can. What the heck is an Einherjar, anyway? Must be pretty cool if Regius is putting his faith in it rather than traditional mages or whatever. If Regius is actually the sponsor of Scag and friends, then it's entirely possible that his trump card will come in on the other side. (Then again, isn't that more unlikely now? If he had the support of the high council, why have Duo kill them off?) That's still our real wild card here, but it's almost certain that they (it?) will show up before the end.
Well, Scag has no control over Zest/Agito whatsoever, so he's moot. Lulu is pointless near Cradle since she can't really fly and AMF would best her inside the Cradle. Numbers...well, the division is a little strange, but then again, considering the lack of Number versatility, he's probably making do, since he seems to value his laboratory to the point he did not escape at all last episode, while still needing Cradle defenses alongside other things. But yeah.
Eihenjar is DISABLED. That stupid-surface-to-air weapon is dealt with and done.
And the reason he killed off his sponsors is because by awakening Cradle, he backstabbed them, and since they clearly won't help him anymore, why let them live?
Serenity85
2007-08-19, 23:49
@Serenity85
Don't forget that there are still 2 Numbers in 'Cradle' for Nanoha to deal with... And she has to do it under AMF conditions.
And if traditions hold, there won't be any fighting in the last episode :p
Vita probably won't have that much focus if all she'll be facing off is Stealth Drones.
I have high hopes for Team Lightning, I don't want them to be upstaged by Team Stars.
lol I forgot about the tradition of last ep being recap lol. And when I said Nanoha/Vivio moments included a fight with numbers (theres no way she can just walk in and save Vivio without a fight. ok then 21-23 will contain the forward fights with vita interspursed leaving 24-25 for Fate, Nanoha and Signum (forgot to include her in my first post battles tieing in Scags ultimate defeat and the final fight^^ Scag and Vivio shouldn't be finished till 25 and Zest and signum must get a fair bit of focus but not on the same scale so 24 should conclude their fight. If they spread focus out correctly we may not see any or much of their fight till the end giving us our forwards in their shinning moments^^
At least this is how I would like things to go. We get action from all key players with no one getting shafted :D
Darco_emp
2007-08-20, 00:04
As things stands things does not look good for both Vita and Teana with both of them wounded and one seriously at that. While I do not think any shafting is going to occur given how season one and two have turned out I'm getting bad vibs from Vita at least.
I do hope Signum and Zest does finish their fight about ep 23, that gives more time for us to see Hex Goddess Hayate in unison mode :heh:.
Nanoha fights Dieci in 22, btw. In 23 she enters the throne room.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 00:07
Granted that super-nimble use of teleportation would give RF6 a big advantage. On the other hand, you guys are missing the point as far as which threat to confront.
Not simply to confront but to deal with. As far as we see now their separated forces aren't making progress that quick. If they started by going all-out against the Numbers in the city / Lulu team this threat would've been taken care of already most probably. Then they have Jail and the Cradle left, and if they certainly want to take them out at once, they can separate the forces similar to the way they did but with Signum going to the Cradle while Shamal teleports Fate and the Forwards to Scaglietti's Lab.
They -can't ignore the Cradle-, because it's a "you all lose" situation if it goes where it's going. Even if you're callous enough to write off Vivio (and have the ten-ton testicles to confront Nanoha afterwards), you can't even assume that the big guns will work on it - if the AMF's powerful enough, it's entirely possible that Hayate's artillery shooting (or an Arc-en-Ciel) would simply fail. And if you're NOT prepared to write Vivio off, you have to get her out now, now, now, because the TSAB as a whole will absolutely kill her off to stop the Cradle - hell, Nanoha and Fate have been in the targeting zone of an Arc shot before, as well as all Nanoha's family, so she oughta know that much.
I doubt that Arc-en-Ciel would fail, at least while the Cradle didn't reach its designated point where it should obtain a power boost, but whatever. It was pointed out several times already that going after all targets at once doesn't necessarily mean the fastest way to succeed.
You can't let Scag go unmolested, because if he pulls the quick fade, next time you've got 20 or 40 or 100 Numbers coming at you instead of a dozen. And you need to find out who the hell his sponsor is, right quick. You don't necessarily have to punch him out instantly - so you certainly can't justify putting your whole force in there - but you do need to pin him in there. There's also the chance of a "big victory" if he sent out all his mobile forces - decapitate the command center, and you might be able to force a surrender (or turn off) the rest of the forces.
He didn't move from his place since it was discovered, so a half an hour delay to defeat the Numbers/Lulu team won't change much. And I can't understand why you're afraid to send Forwards to confront Jail.
You can't ignore the drones. Not only is it really the only thing Hayate can do well (she ain't an indoor fighter, man), but if you leave them unmolested, they'll tear up your other forces and civilian infrastructure.
Hayate can keep doing that if she really has no other uses.
You COULD afford to let the loose party of Numbers go, sure. But you can't really utilize the forces it frees up for any of your other objectives... they can't fight in the AMF in the Cradle, you can't afford to send them gift-wrapped to Jail, and they're not air-mobile enough to take on the drones (possibly excepting Caro, but Voltaire is one of your final reserves, and they're probably ready for him given ep 17.) So what else are you going to do with them? You can't even pretend to be "holding them in reserve", really, if all the committed forces you have are in areas you can't send your forwards into ANYWAY. You engage the loose Numbers with them, or you tell them to stay home, and that's all there is to it. (And here we're confronted with the stupidity of putting Nanoha and Fate in squads with buck rookies...)
Why can't the Forwards be sent against Jail as well once the Numbers party is obliterated?
Unless they can. What the heck is an Einherjar, anyway? Must be pretty cool if Regius is putting his faith in it rather than traditional mages or whatever. If Regius is actually the sponsor of Scag and friends, then it's entirely possible that his trump card will come in on the other side. (Then again, isn't that more unlikely now? If he had the support of the high council, why have Duo kill them off?) That's still our real wild card here, but it's almost certain that they (it?) will show up before the end.
I guess we won't hear about Enherjar anymore.
After all, there's such thing as a AAA ranked not being able to fly...
Schach ...
Mirificus
2007-08-20, 00:23
(One other point - it's just as dumb for Scag to split off the Numbers, Lulu, and Zest as it is for Hayate to divert forces to stop them. That much more defense would really firm up either his personal guard or the Cradle's close-in defense, or both. So that implies that their objective is important enough to open HIS forces up to a defeat in detail - especially since he can't reasonably expect reinforcements, whereas RF6 will inevitably be reinforced by heavier forces as TSAB gets their head out of their rear.
Agreed but I'd rather take a risk that they're diversionary attacks and make sure I win at the Cradle and Jail's lab.
Granted that super-nimble use of teleportation would give RF6 a big advantage. On the other hand, you guys are missing the point as far as which threat to confront.
If you try to secure everywhere at once, none of those areas will be secure.
1) Jail
2) Cradle/Vivio
3) Drones
4) Numbers
Not all of those need immediate attention. The damage that the Cradle can do probably far outweighs any damage the drones and numbers can do to the city. The same principles of concentration and economy of force apply to Jail's forces. The more drones and numbers busy destroying buildings, the less forces Jail has to defend his lab and the Cradle.
You can't let Scag go unmolested, because if he pulls the quick fade, next time you've got 20 or 40 or 100 Numbers coming at you instead of a dozen. And you need to find out who the hell his sponsor is, right quick. You don't necessarily have to punch him out instantly - so you certainly can't justify putting your whole force in there - but you do need to pin him in there. There's also the chance of a "big victory" if he sent out all his mobile forces - decapitate the command center, and you might be able to force a surrender (or turn off) the rest of the forces.
I think the situation does warrant taking him out as fast as possible.
You can't ignore the drones. Not only is it really the only thing Hayate can do well (she ain't an indoor fighter, man), but if you leave them unmolested, they'll tear up your other forces and civilian infrastructure.
The only drones that RF6 should be concerned with are the drones around the Cradle and Jail's lab. The rest can wait for the follow on forces.
You COULD afford to let the loose party of Numbers go, sure. But you can't really utilize the forces it frees up for any of your other objectives... they can't fight in the AMF in the Cradle, you can't afford to send them gift-wrapped to Jail, and they're not air-mobile enough to take on the drones (possibly excepting Caro, but Voltaire is one of your final reserves, and they're probably ready for him given ep 17.) So what else are you going to do with them? You can't even pretend to be "holding them in reserve", really, if all the committed forces you have are in areas you can't send your forwards into ANYWAY. You engage the loose Numbers with them, or you tell them to stay home, and that's all there is to it. (And here we're confronted with the stupidity of putting Nanoha and Fate in squads with buck rookies...)
I disagree. Letting the numbers run around the city is a good economy of force. If the forwards are capable of taking on numbers, they should be taking on the ones defending Jail's lab.
Of course, even if you -can- teleport away, that doesn't mean that engaged forces will. If Nanoha and Fate are two minutes away from pulling Vivio out, you might tell them "we need one of you here right now or the Numbers are going to kill the high command"... but they might not actually go! (Not that killing the TSAB high command wouldn't be a beneficial thing in the long run, idiots that they are...) Disengaging from the enemy is always a tricky business. Setting up a defensive plan where you have to punch out one force, get clear of them, and wheel on another is always tricky... you're quite likely to be unable to disengage, and either get pinned between two forces, or held down while the second force goes off and has a party in your rear area.
Teleporting should at least help with the initial deployments like sending the forwards to Jail's HQ. It would be ideal if the forwards alone could secure Jail but they'd probably need at least one Ace. The remaining forces could be teleported close to the Cradle. Ideally, there would be a teleporter mage accompanying the Ace to Jail's HQ so they could teleport the Ace out to the Cradle once Jail is secure. In either case, the HQ combat would be over faster and let Fate head to the Cradle sooner.
They -can't ignore the Cradle-, because it's a "you all lose" situation if it goes where it's going. Even if you're callous enough to write off Vivio (and have the ten-ton testicles to confront Nanoha afterwards), you can't even assume that the big guns will work on it - if the AMF's powerful enough, it's entirely possible that Hayate's artillery shooting (or an Arc-en-Ciel) would simply fail. And if you're NOT prepared to write Vivio off, you have to get her out now, now, now, because the TSAB as a whole will absolutely kill her off to stop the Cradle - hell, Nanoha and Fate have been in the targeting zone of an Arc shot before, as well as all Nanoha's family, so she oughta know that much.
Nanoha, Vita, Signum, Rein would be free to concentrate overwhelming combat power against the numbers in the city and defeat them so they won't be able to reinforce the Cradle. Once the numbers are defeated decisively, they could start the offensive on the Cradle.
No one's suggested teleporting them out of their current predicament. If they were going to take advantage of the teleporters, they should have done it earlier, en masse, so they could all teleport in as a group.
You're completely missing the point.
NONE of the teleporters have teleported as a group or demonstrated such an ability to do so other than in a TSAB ship or via Lutecia. And out of all of the teleporters period, the only ones who have even shown the ability to teleport someone other than himself or herself are Yuuno (over a short distance) or Yuuno, Arf, AND Shamal working together. If you don't have a ship it's pretty plain that it's not a common skill. Nanoha never teleports herself. Neither does Hayate.
Why can't the Forwards be sent against Jail as well once the Numbers party is obliterated?
Seems like it won't be that easy for the Forwards to obliterate the Numbers. And if, by that time, Fate still has trouble with Jail's defense, I don't think the Forwards will make much of a difference.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 00:29
Granted that super-nimble use of teleportation would give RF6 a big advantage. On the other hand, you guys are missing the point as far as which threat to confront.
They -can't ignore the Cradle-,
Nobody's ignoring it. But we are putting it last in our engagement sequence because it is the scenario with the most unknowns.
because it's a "you all lose" situation if it goes where it's going.
And if I send insufficient forces and they are rendered ineffective, I lose too.
Even if you're callous enough to write off Vivio (and have the ten-ton testicles to confront Nanoha afterwards),
Honestly, I don't understand why Nanoha does not blame Hayate for what happened... if she had evaced Vivio to a more secure location, we wouldn't be having Ep18-26!
you can't even assume that the big guns will work on it - if the AMF's powerful enough, it's entirely possible that Hayate's artillery shooting (or an Arc-en-Ciel) would simply fail.
If it is of that power class, there's nothing anyone can do. To fight, one has to assume his attacks will at least be somewhat effective.
And if you're NOT prepared to write Vivio off, you have to get her out now, now, now, because the TSAB as a whole will absolutely kill her off to stop the Cradle - hell, Nanoha and Fate have been in the targeting zone of an Arc shot before, as well as all Nanoha's family, so she oughta know that much.
Which is as it should be. Vivio is expendable, even if Nanoha mama doesn't think that way. Remind Nanoha mama whose fault it really is Vivio is in the enemy's hands and threatening the world...
Also, again, by doing the Cradle last they can put all their resources into engaging its uncertainties, thus offering the best probability of success and the shortest time. It is the choice between having 3 hours (before the fleet arrives) with only 2 guys (6 man-hours, not counting nice factors like N-square) at the problem and 2 hours with 5 guys (10-man hours) at the problem,. Honestly, most of us will choose the latter.
You can't let Scag go unmolested, because if he pulls the quick fade, next time you've got 20 or 40 or 100 Numbers coming at you instead of a dozen.
If he can do that easily, we'd have had 20-100 Numbers against us this time. Just by wrecking his operations, I can end the short term threat and then slowly dig him out again.
And you need to find out who the hell his sponsor is, right quick. You don't necessarily have to punch him out instantly - so you certainly can't justify putting your whole force in there - but you do need to pin him in there. There's also the chance of a "big victory" if he sent out all his mobile forces - decapitate the command center, and you might be able to force a surrender (or turn off) the rest of the forces.
Pin? Who's pinning whom? While Scarlietti's defense pins down your inadequate assault force, he can run outta the back door! Or maybe he doesn't have to run because his defenses have killed off your assault force with minimal losses! If you storm him, even after taking a few minutes to one-turn-kill the ground-pounding Numbers, you might be able to blow past his defense and get him before he manages to make it all the way to his door!
You can't ignore the drones. Not only is it really the only thing Hayate can do well (she ain't an indoor fighter, man), but if you leave them unmolested, they'll tear up your other forces and civilian infrastructure.
We are talking a planet at risk. At this point, a few buildings and battalions are nothing.
So what else are you going to do with them? You can't even pretend to be "holding them in reserve", really, if all the committed forces you have are in areas you can't send your forwards into ANYWAY. You engage the loose Numbers with them, or you tell them to stay home, and that's all there is to it. (And here we're confronted with the stupidity of putting Nanoha and Fate in squads with buck rookies...)
You send them where everyone else is going. First, you send everyone against the Numbers. Then you send them against Jail (the Forwards can either mop up the city fight or assist in this assault). Finally, you send them across the Cradle. To be fair, the unexpected AMF field may well be bad news for them in the final case, but we are evaluating process, not result.
There's an additional danger in getting too fancy with teleportation - especially if you know your enemy is fiddling around with anti-whatever fields. Say they all decided it would be a good idea to rescue Vivio quickly,
In which case, they deserve to lose for their hotheaded stupidity. The Cradle should be the last target and definitely not be the first. It is the most uncertain question on the test and it will be impossible to make a time estimate to completion. You start people off on easy questions like the ground-pounding Numbers that are solved quickly, minimizing loss of combat coefficient, time and boosting confidence. What works in test-taking works here too.
Disengaging from the enemy is always a tricky business. Setting up a defensive plan where you have to punch out one force, get clear of them, and wheel on another is always tricky... you're quite likely to be unable to disengage, and either get pinned between two forces, or held down while the second force goes off and has a party in your rear area.
Wrong thought. Understand this. We are not "disengaging" from anything or on a "defensive" plan. We are the guys on the offense. His guys desperately try to disengage from our concentrated fist, We don't disengage. We overrun them in turn as they try to disengage, so we don't have to "disengage" from anything except our enemy's corpses, and then we all go solve that Cradle problem and with luck bring home our little Vivio.
So that implies that their objective is important enough to open HIS forces up to a defeat in detail
Which is why I'm going to hit those Ground Pounding numbers headed to god knows where while I can see them running...
Mirificus
2007-08-20, 00:33
You're completely missing the point.
NONE of the teleporters have teleported as a group or demonstrated such an ability to do so other than in a TSAB ship or via Lutecia. And out of all of the teleporters period, the only ones who have even shown the ability to teleport someone other than himself or herself are Yuuno (over a short distance) or Yuuno, Arf, AND Shamal working together. If you don't have a ship it's pretty plain that it's not a common skill. Nanoha never teleports herself. Neither does Hayate.
All true but they have a whole fleet of TSAB ships. They could get teleported to the TSAB ships using the TSAB teleporters and then use those to teleport in to the objective. The only question is how fast the teleporters work and their range.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 00:35
You're completely missing the point.
NONE of the teleporters have teleported as a group or demonstrated such an ability to do so other than in a TSAB ship or via Lutecia. And out of all of the teleporters period, the only ones who have even shown the ability to teleport someone other than himself or herself are Yuuno (over a short distance) or Yuuno, Arf, AND Shamal working together. If you don't have a ship it's pretty plain that it's not a common skill. Nanoha never teleports herself. Neither does Hayate.
I don't think anybody reasonably thinks the two of them hadn't picked up this useful, common skill over 10 years of service. I bet Seven Arcs will be destroyed if they tried to imply the two of them don't know it.
For another thing, they do have a very beautiful ship, the Asura.
Shamal was transporting one-third of a very large mass (the Book of Darkness). It stands to reason that a few humans ain't a big pain.
Even if I agree to this asinine scenario, at the very very least the guys who can teleport can still move around to weigh the efforts, speeding them up in turn.
All true but they do have TSAB ships. They could get teleported to the TSAB ships using the TSAB teleporters and then use those to teleport in to the objective.
And judging from the fact that they haven't in addition to all the other previous instances of teleportation, it's safe to conclude that the range of the TSAB ship teleporters is not good enough to do that, since the ships are all still "on the way" at the speed of plot to the Cradle. After all, teleportation still took time to get to the destination (like the whole WTH reaction to the masked twins showing up on two different worlds a lot faster than expected in A's).
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 00:42
We are not talking interdimensional transport. We are talking intradimensional transport using the Asura's very close by transporters.
I don't think anybody reasonably thinks the two of them hadn't picked up this useful, common skill over 10 years of service. I bet Seven Arcs will be destroyed if they tried to imply the two of them don't know it.
For another thing, they do have a very beautiful ship, the Asura.
Shamal was transporting one-third of a very large mass (the Book of Darkness). It stands to reason that a few humans ain't a big pain.
Even if I agree to this asinine scenario, at the very very least the guys who can teleport can still move around to weigh the efforts, speeding them up in turn.
Keep in mind here that I am simply trying to point out the severe limitations Seven Arcs appears to be putting on teleportation. I'm not trying to say that the current strategy they are using is good, but that "They can always teleport" really shouldn't be used as the crutch to be everywhere at once. Even if they COULD all teleport, all of the instances of teleportation have shown that it's basically like taking a freeway/highway over local streets. You will get there much faster, but you will still take time to get there.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 00:51
Seems like it won't be that easy for the Forwards to obliterate the Numbers. And if, by that time, Fate still has trouble with Jail's defense, I don't think the Forwards will make much of a difference.
I'm talking about the case of another distribution of RF6 forces, namely combined assault on the Numbers/Lulu and proceeding with the remaining objectives afterwards.
We are not talking interdimensional transport. We are talking intradimensional transport using the Asura's very close by transporters.
Exactly like they teleported in the first season, that didn't look complicated at all.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 00:51
Yeah, I did notice. But then, Lutecia seems to have no problems with teleportation or knowing how to use it to her side's advantage.
I do expect some time loss from all the teleports (though not much because the distances don't seem that great), but by using concentrated blows, I can easily make up for the lost time because I can storm through my enemies instead of slogging ahead. In fact, it may be that I can just have them fly around instead of teleporting and still save time on the back end.
Yeah, I did notice. But then, Lutecia seems to have no problems with teleportation or knowing how to use it to her side's advantage.
[...]
Agreed. And the excuse they used for Lutecia was what Caro said about being good at transport magics because she's a powerful summoner.
It was a little humorous reading that because it was like Caro indirectly saying "That summoner can do that? Geez, I suck compared to her."
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 01:02
It is not so much that she's good in it in a technical sense - I can buy that being a side effect of summoning proficiency. After all what is summoning but teleporting something you need right over?
What I'm really bothered is that she's the only one in the show that has an inkling of the tactical possibilities? 3D envelope maneuvers, anyone?
I haven't really seen her summon/transport something midair--just on a surface. Sure, the thing she summons can fly, but the summoning square seems like it always appeared at ground level. That would imply that she can't, I'd think. Of course maybe I'm missing a shot where she does do so...
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 01:11
The third "D" here refers to the transportation plane instead of the vertical. Perhaps I should have called it "teleportation envelopment".
Mirificus
2007-08-20, 01:13
What I'm really bothered is that she's the only one in the show that has an inkling of the tactical possibilities? 3D envelope maneuvers, anyone?
I was definitely thinking of vertical envelopment. You could teleport the Aces well, well above a target outside of typical AMFs and higher than drone max altitudes if possible.
Avatar_notADV
2007-08-20, 01:30
There's an element nobody's mentioned so far, and it's an artifact of us as the fans knowing more than Hayate in the context of the show.
How many Numbers are there? Well, twelve, right? (Plus one!) We know that, 'cause we can see them. But there's no way for Hayate to know how many there are. It's reasonable to conclude that there's at least twelve, given they've got gun camera footage of somebody with "XII" on her uniform, but they can't say "okay, that means there's only twelve" any more than seeing Dieci back when let them say "okay, that means there's only ten".
So Hayate can't assume they can insta-pwn any of the targets. Even if they have a good count of how many Numbers there are in the loose group, at least one of the Numbers can fool the hell out of TSAB's sensor gear, and dropping in expecting five Numbers and coming up against twenty would really ruin anyone's day. Sure, they'd win... but would they win in time to wheel on the drones? AND Jail? AND the Cradle?
Also, Hayate doesn't have to win the war with less than a platoon of forces. There really are other mages in the TSAB, there's a huge-ass armada, there's more S's out there than a Slytherin convention if they all get together. All she has to do (if we're assuming nobody's smart enough to insta-warp her a huge amount of reinforcements) is hold out until the conventional forces show up, at which point they can zerg away. So it's not essential that all the Numbers get bagged by the forwards, that Jail is apprehended, that the drones are all smashed, that the Cradle is sunk, so much as it's essential that the Numbers don't accomplish their mission, Jail doesn't flee, the Cradle doesn't become Castle Invincible, before the reinforcements arrive. For that, spreading out the defensive forces really is the best policy.
Spreading out isn't the best policy from a force-conservation perspective, nor if Hayate's isolated and getting no help. But RF6 isn't a conventional unit, force conservation is NOT its overriding goal (and, bluntly, Hayate's career wouldn't survive abandoning defense of an urban area regardless of what happened afterwards, if we can ascribe a base motive to her as well as noble ones like not wanting lots of civilians to die.)
It's not weird that she's got the perspective of a first-responder in an emergency, rather than a general in charge of several divisions; that's what Hayate put RF6 together for in the first place, right?
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 01:37
There's an element nobody's mentioned so far, and it's an artifact of us as the fans knowing more than Hayate in the context of the show.
How many Numbers are there? Well, twelve, right? (Plus one!) We know that, 'cause we can see them. But there's no way for Hayate to know how many there are. It's reasonable to conclude that there's at least twelve, given they've got gun camera footage of somebody with "XII" on her uniform, but they can't say "okay, that means there's only twelve" any more than seeing Dieci back when let them say "okay, that means there's only ten".
So Hayate can't assume they can insta-pwn any of the targets. Even if they have a good count of how many Numbers there are in the loose group, at least one of the Numbers can fool the hell out of TSAB's sensor gear, and dropping in expecting five Numbers and coming up against twenty would really ruin anyone's day. Sure, they'd win... but would they win in time to wheel on the drones? AND Jail? AND the Cradle?
Also, Hayate doesn't have to win the war with less than a platoon of forces. There really are other mages in the TSAB, there's a huge-ass armada, there's more S's out there than a Slytherin convention if they all get together. All she has to do (if we're assuming nobody's smart enough to insta-warp her a huge amount of reinforcements) is hold out until the conventional forces show up, at which point they can zerg away. So it's not essential that all the Numbers get bagged by the forwards, that Jail is apprehended, that the drones are all smashed, that the Cradle is sunk, so much as it's essential that the Numbers don't accomplish their mission, Jail doesn't flee, the Cradle doesn't become Castle Invincible, before the reinforcements arrive. For that, spreading out the defensive forces really is the best policy.
Spreading out isn't the best policy from a force-conservation perspective, nor if Hayate's isolated and getting no help. But RF6 isn't a conventional unit, force conservation is NOT its overriding goal (and, bluntly, Hayate's career wouldn't survive abandoning defense of an urban area regardless of what happened afterwards, if we can ascribe a base motive to her as well as noble ones like not wanting lots of civilians to die.)
It's not weird that she's got the perspective of a first-responder in an emergency, rather than a general in charge of several divisions; that's what Hayate put RF6 together for in the first place, right?
The difference is that you're talking about better defensive strategy while we're assuming RF6 is on the offensive.
Honestly, I don't understand why Nanoha does not blame Hayate for what happened... if she had evaced Vivio to a more secure location, we wouldn't be having Ep18-26!
Well, apparently Nanoha did think that Vivio wasn't at risk. Why would she blame Hayate for having the same opinion?
It was a little humorous reading that because it was like Caro indirectly saying "That summoner can do that? Geez, I suck compared to her."
As a matter of fact, Caro is not a good summoner. She can summon her Guardian Dragon/God, Voltaire, but that's all.
She's a decent support mage though.
I haven't really seen her summon/transport something midair--just on a surface. Sure, the thing she summons can fly, but the summoning square seems like it always appeared at ground level. That would imply that she can't, I'd think. Of course maybe I'm missing a shot where she does do so...Caro summoned Friedich Dragon Soul mid air in Epi 6, and has been doing that ever since... :uhoh:
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 02:25
There's an element nobody's mentioned so far, and it's an artifact of us as the fans knowing more than Hayate in the context of the show.
How many Numbers are there? Well, twelve, right? (Plus one!) We know that, 'cause we can see them. But there's no way for Hayate to know how many there are. It's reasonable to conclude that there's at least twelve, given they've got gun camera footage of somebody with "XII" on her uniform, but they can't say "okay, that means there's only twelve" any more than seeing Dieci back when let them say "okay, that means there's only ten".
So Hayate can't assume they can insta-pwn any of the targets. Even if they have a good count of how many Numbers there are in the loose group, at least one of the Numbers can fool the hell out of TSAB's sensor gear, and dropping in expecting five Numbers and coming up against twenty would really ruin anyone's day. Sure, they'd win... but would they win in time to wheel on the drones? AND Jail? AND the Cradle?
1) If this really happened and it were only the forwards, they'd be basically dead. Somehow, I don't think this is a very acceptable solution.
2) For that matter, the potential for such a nasty surprise is present for every prong. In fact, intelligence on the ground-pounding team is already the most certain - you can't even see anything of Scarlietti HQ's or Cradle's defences. In such a case, dispersed, they won't just be fighting at a disfavorable CoF, they'd be destroyed in a minute. If you are thinking this way and you think that all objectives need to be handled, the best chance of achieving objectivies in face of surprises or even just mere survival is still to stick together.
Also, Hayate doesn't have to win the war with less than a platoon of forces. There really are other mages in the TSAB, there's a huge-ass armada, there's more S's out there than a Slytherin convention if they all get together.
I got the feeling that when Zest said "over-S" in Ep17, he's referring to our aces. Given how shocked Regius was at hearing a SS was on the ground forces, it would seem that S-ranked are between low and non-existent in the GF. I definitely don't see them vigorously coming out to the Ep17 combat.
Ordinary Ground Force mages are even more useless than the guys Vita pawned in Ep1 of A's. If they were any good, the Numbers prong could have been left to them, but they are useless.
All she has to do (if we're assuming nobody's smart enough to insta-warp her a huge amount of reinforcements) is hold out until the conventional forces show up, at which point they can zerg away.
That'd be the fleet. It is at least 3 hours away.
So it's not essential that all the Numbers get bagged by the forwards, that Jail is apprehended, that the drones are all smashed, that the Cradle is sunk, so much as it's essential that the Numbers don't accomplish their mission, Jail doesn't flee, the Cradle doesn't become Castle Invincible, before the reinforcements arrive. For that, spreading out the defensive forces really is the best policy.
Actually, it is a horrible mistake. Assuming no horrible traps like you envisaged up there, Jail is currently free to flee or stay. The Cradle continues its advance and poor Vita gets p3wned. The Numbers inflict heavy casualties on our Forwards and may soon be able to resume their advance. All because insufficient force is brought on all fronts.
Spreading out isn't the best policy from a force-conservation perspective, nor if Hayate's isolated and getting no help. But RF6 isn't a conventional unit, force conservation is NOT its overriding goal (and, bluntly, Hayate's career wouldn't survive abandoning defense of an urban area regardless of what happened afterwards, if we can ascribe a base motive to her as well as noble ones like not wanting lots of civilians to die.)
Cold laugh: Her career was trashed in Ep17, if we assume any realism in the TSAB... perhaps they would have a court martial in Sound Stage 3 (since there's no way they are doing it in Ep26). Would like to hear her explain all this...
It's not weird that she's got the perspective of a first-responder in an emergency, rather than a general in charge of several divisions; that's what Hayate put RF6 together for in the first place, right?
A first responder does triage, evaluating his cases in terms of severity and stabilization completion times and then does at least basic stabilization procedures in turn. He doesn't try to hastily (and ineffectually) stop 3 chest wounds on 3 patients by pressing an appendage onto each wound. He tries to stabilize one patient, then turn on the other.
Caro summoned Friedich Dragon Soul mid air in Epi 6, and has been doing that ever since... :uhoh:
Yes, Caro does.
I'm talking Lutecia though...
Yes, Caro does.
I'm talking Lutecia though...Oh carp what a big mindfart. :eyespin:
I think she could summon Garyuu mid air... Now if only Garyuu isn't always running around fully summoned we'd have a better example. :heh:
Overture
2007-08-20, 02:42
I think Lutecia can summon while in mid-air...
The gravity around her becomes 0.6 of Earth's, or maybe she just have Peach's dress characteristics of being able to drift on air...
How many Numbers are there? Well, twelve, right? (Plus one!) We know that, 'cause we can see them. But there's no way for Hayate to know how many there are. It's reasonable to conclude that there's at least twelve, given they've got gun camera footage of somebody with "XII" on her uniform, but they can't say "okay, that means there's only twelve"
But they know that Ginga, just captured, is number 13.
Caro summoned Friedich Dragon Soul mid air in Epi 6, and has been doing that ever since... :uhoh:
She changed his size, that's all. In fact, it's kind of a limiter release.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 02:58
But they know that Ginga, just captured, is number 13.
There's always a smallest of possibility that there's a 14, and that Ginga could just be replacing a fallen 13, one which could be involved with who knows what.
Overture
2007-08-20, 03:04
Friedrich (big) I think is a summon... But in a different way than the "summon from thin air" thing...
He did made his entrance from the summon circle (the square) like Voltaire did.
Or am I wrong?
Well, when Caro made her dragon grow on screen, he was flying right next to her when she envelops them in the big pink sphere.
For Lutecia though, so far no matter where she's apparantly standing (mid-air or on ground), the summoning squares that plops out whatever she's summoning has always been on the ground so far...
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 03:18
There's always a smallest of possibility that there's a 14, and that Ginga could just be replacing a fallen 13, one which could be involved with who knows what.
Well, now since Fate saw the tubes in the Lab things should've gotten pretty clear :rolleyes:
Just to let you guys know, when Schach and Fate were talking inside Spagetti's lab, they saw tubes and tubes of women in shadows, and the ones that Schach were looking at were numbered "XV" "XVI" and "XVII", and the line continues onward to the right almost indefinitely...
Which means, we can't say for certain how many Numbers Spagetti has, but we do know that he has a lot of them. :uhoh:
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-20, 03:21
Vita seems to be getting owned in any other way...episode 17, she got owned by Zest and without Unison...now she gets a slice from the back to the front of her body just like that. Now she's standing her ground, all bloody and all raged with anger...hopefully she won't fall in battle...and when I mean fall, I mean something a bit more worse than what Nanoha experienced 8 years ago...:uhoh:
Well, now since Fate saw the tubes in the Lab things should've gotten pretty clear :rolleyes:
But the point was, before they started the attack, they didn't know.
Vita seems to be getting owned in any other way
That's payback for what she did to our cute lil' Nanoha in A's ep 1 :p
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-20, 03:30
That's payback for what she did to our cute lil' Nanoha in A's ep 1 :p
heheh:heh:, that makes sense, although I'm kinda worried that she might not make it out alive in her battle with those drones...although the insert song "Pray" makes a stance that all of the separated factions will get help from the unexpected.
Anyways, its good to see Yuuno and even Arf get some screen time in this episode...thats already a given that maybe, they will jump in and help out those that were close to them. (Yuuno-Nanoha, Arf-Fate)
That's payback for what she did to our cute lil' Nanoha in A's ep 1 :pTHAT WAS SO LONG AGO!!! :eek:
But Vita's too unique to die... yet. :heh:
Avatar_notADV
2007-08-20, 03:55
Not to mention that Scag has a bunch of additional girls-in-tubes. There's no telling how close they are to being put into service, as it were...
You guys are using the wrong metaphor for Hayate, though. She ain't a surgeon, she's a fire fighter. If you have three crews and three fires, even if each fire is bigger than what one crew can handle alone, you get one crew on each fire and fight it while you holler for help. You -never- just let it burn, because it spreads.
Characterizing RF6 as going on the offensive? Please. Jail's forces are the ones pushing the tempo. The timing of the attacks are up to him - the entire reason they can't all just go pile on his base is because he's sent out the Cradle, the drone armada, the Numbers. Sure, they're sending Fate to his base, but that's like trying to say RAF bombing raids on Germany during the Battle of Britain meant they were on the offensive. Their strategy is -entirely- based around interception at this point.
I'm not trying to claim that Hayate's the next Rommel or that her tactics are relatively good. It's just that she's caught in a nasty dilemma - she has three major crises happening simultaneously, and she has to respond to each of them. It's easy to say that she doesn't have the personnel and the firepower to deal with them divided up, sure. But she's got to anyway. You can say that she really ought to write off some collateral damage, but that's not something she can do. More importantly, that's not something she could possibly order Nanoha and Fate to do. I mean, come on. The reason Fate is alive is because Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her. The reason Hayate is alive is because Fate and Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her (granted, more of a suggestion in that case.) The idea that ANY of the three of them would consider their own survival more important than rescuing somebody? (Might cause angst, sure. Might be a bad idea, sure. But this... is... NANOHA~)
heheh:heh:, that makes sense, although I'm kinda worried that she might not make it out alive in her battle with those drones...
Don't worry, this is MGLN. She won't die.
Not to mention that Scag has a bunch of additional girls-in-tubes. There's no telling how close they are to being put into service, as it were...
You guys are using the wrong metaphor for Hayate, though. She ain't a surgeon, she's a fire fighter. If you have three crews and three fires, even if each fire is bigger than what one crew can handle alone, you get one crew on each fire and fight it while you holler for help. You -never- just let it burn, because it spreads.
Characterizing RF6 as going on the offensive? Please. Jail's forces are the ones pushing the tempo. The timing of the attacks are up to him - the entire reason they can't all just go pile on his base is because he's sent out the Cradle, the drone armada, the Numbers. Sure, they're sending Fate to his base, but that's like trying to say RAF bombing raids on Germany during the Battle of Britain meant they were on the offensive. Their strategy is -entirely- based around interception at this point.
I'm not trying to claim that Hayate's the next Rommel or that her tactics are relatively good. It's just that she's caught in a nasty dilemma - she has three major crises happening simultaneously, and she has to respond to each of them. It's easy to say that she doesn't have the personnel and the firepower to deal with them divided up, sure. But she's got to anyway. You can say that she really ought to write off some collateral damage, but that's not something she can do. More importantly, that's not something she could possibly order Nanoha and Fate to do. I mean, come on. The reason Fate is alive is because Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her. The reason Hayate is alive is because Fate and Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her (granted, more of a suggestion in that case.) The idea that ANY of the three of them would consider their own survival more important than rescuing somebody? (Might cause angst, sure. Might be a bad idea, sure. But this... is... NANOHA~)Spoken like a pro! Cookie! :D
THAT WAS SO LONG AGO!!!
From my point of vue, about a month ago, since I re-watched that episode last month.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 04:30
Not to mention that Scag has a bunch of additional girls-in-tubes. There's no telling how close they are to being put into service, as it were...
What signs are there suggest there are only 12+1 in service. The rest aren't anywhere close to operational readiness. Further, read previous reply. If there are surprises, stick together remains their best chance. Economy of force is only feasible where you have a good idea of the enemy's composition.
You guys are using the wrong metaphor for Hayate, though. She ain't a surgeon, she's a fire fighter. If you have three crews and three fires, even if each fire is bigger than what one crew can handle alone, you get one crew on each fire and fight it while you holler for help. You -never- just let it burn, because it spreads.
Not as sure about fire fighting doctrine - I only know military and some medical. But firefighters are a piss poor analogy here because you don't tend to lose firefighters at a rapid pace as you fail to extinguish the fire - totally different from a battle. In any case, if concentration means rapid extinguishing of two fires (so you can get to the third before it spreads too much) and dispersal means three slowly spreading fires and rapidly torched firemen ...
Characterizing RF6 as going on the offensive? Please. Jail's forces are the ones pushing the tempo. The timing of the attacks are up to him - the entire reason they can't all just go pile on his base is because he's sent out the Cradle, the drone armada, the Numbers. Sure, they're sending Fate to his base, but that's like trying to say RAF bombing raids on Germany during the Battle of Britain meant they were on the offensive. Their strategy is -entirely- based around interception at this point.
Yes, and you can let him continue to push you around, reacting to his moves. Or you can decide to push him around by rapidly and systematically taking out his attack axes. The United States figured out the latter was the better move when they scribbled up AirLand Battle in 1981-82 - even in a defensive war, chances to regain initiative abound if only you would reach out and take it.
I'm not trying to claim that Hayate's the next Rommel or that her tactics are relatively good. It's just that she's caught in a nasty dilemma - she has three major crises happening simultaneously, and she has to respond to each of them.
Yes. Use attack-in-sequence, not parallel slog outs. That way you can actually deal effectively with all three targets within the limited timeframe with lower casualties, more residual combat power, less ammo expenditure ... etc.
You can say that she really ought to write off some collateral damage, but that's not something she can do.
Why the h*ll not. We are discussing the fate of billions of people. The fate of individuals or even thousands are no longer on the radar. If there's someone to blame for this, Hayate can kick herself. If she had properly handled Ep17, she won't have to do this.
More importantly, that's not something she could possibly order Nanoha and Fate to do. I mean, come on. The reason Fate is alive is because Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her. The reason Hayate is alive is because Fate and Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her (granted, more of a suggestion in that case.) The idea that ANY of the three of them would consider their own survival more important than rescuing somebody? (Might cause angst, sure. Might be a bad idea, sure. But this... is... NANOHA~)
Understand this. This is not their personal safety. This is a planet at stake. If they are really as pure as you think, what they should do is adopt strategies to maximize the chances of the planet's survival. Otherwise they lack discipline and understanding of the Operational Art. They are merely selfish, putting the few over the many.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 04:52
Not to mention that Scag has a bunch of additional girls-in-tubes. There's no telling how close they are to being put into service, as it were...
This has nothing to do with the need to separate RF6 forces.
You guys are using the wrong metaphor for Hayate, though. She ain't a surgeon, she's a fire fighter. If you have three crews and three fires, even if each fire is bigger than what one crew can handle alone, you get one crew on each fire and fight it while you holler for help. You -never- just let it burn, because it spreads.
Then I won't be using metaphores at all - she's a military commander, that's it. She has three objectives to be dealt with, and technically a single division to do that. Unless you're 100% confident in the ability to achieve your goals with separated forces you leave them packed together and clear the objectives one by one with maximal success rate. If the separation of forces leads to doubts in a successful completion of the mission it's not worth trying.
Characterizing RF6 as going on the offensive? Please. Jail's forces are the ones pushing the tempo. The timing of the attacks are up to him - the entire reason they can't all just go pile on his base is because he's sent out the Cradle, the drone armada, the Numbers. Sure, they're sending Fate to his base, but that's like trying to say RAF bombing raids on Germany during the Battle of Britain meant they were on the offensive. Their strategy is -entirely- based around interception at this point.
The problem is that you can't just hold back the Cradle. It has to be dealt with profoundly. There're two ways for that - take it down or capture Scaglietti. The first is most difficult and the second doesn't guarantee success, so there're some options here, and the deployed Numbers could also cause problems. So to lower the number of threats I'd deal with the Numbers/Lulu ASAP with the most amount of power available (Hayate and some grunts may take care of the drones as they actually did). After that everyone incapable of effectively reaching the Cradle (i.e. unable to fly, and teleportation probably won't work there) are sent after Scaglietti, accompanied by one of the commanders, while the rest head to the Cradle. Depending on the situation's development if some part of the involved forces gets free it joins the other (most probably that'd be those sent to the Lab, so those who are capable head to the Cradle, while captured Doctor stays under the supervision of those who're left).
I'm not trying to claim that Hayate's the next Rommel or that her tactics are relatively good. It's just that she's caught in a nasty dilemma - she has three major crises happening simultaneously, and she has to respond to each of them. It's easy to say that she doesn't have the personnel and the firepower to deal with them divided up, sure. But she's got to anyway. You can say that she really ought to write off some collateral damage, but that's not something she can do. More importantly, that's not something she could possibly order Nanoha and Fate to do. I mean, come on. The reason Fate is alive is because Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her. The reason Hayate is alive is because Fate and Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her (granted, more of a suggestion in that case.) The idea that ANY of the three of them would consider their own survival more important than rescuing somebody? (Might cause angst, sure. Might be a bad idea, sure. But this... is... NANOHA~)
Though the anime won't let the good guys fail the chosen tactic to deal with all the threats simultaneously could easily lead to inability to deal with any of them at all. Splitting RF6 forces up was certainly done by the scenarists for the sake of increasing the dramatic effect of the confrontation, but not due to military logic.
Burner of Anime
2007-08-20, 05:13
Vita seems to be getting owned in any other way...episode 17, she got owned by Zest and without Unison...now she gets a slice from the back to the front of her body just like that. Now she's standing her ground, all bloody and all raged with anger...hopefully she won't fall in battle...and when I mean fall, I mean something a bit more worse than what Nanoha experienced 8 years ago...:uhoh:
More worried about Teana. Poor girl has some really stacked odds to overcome.
Then again, I just realised the Numbers have boxed themselves in with the Higurashi Hatchet Girl as a playmate :uhoh: In addition to her known ruthless streak [headshot to loli, crit. strikes to Nanoha, friendly fire incident, ect... :eyespin:], she's also shown to be driven, resourceful as well as highly unconventional.
Still feel she can use her fakes though, the Number girls only found her out by disregarding her false attacks and narrowing in on the real ones. Good for Jail if he put that in [Numbers must be pissed it took so long :heh:]. Cornered, injured and forced into some "out-of-the-box" thinking, I believe there will be an upcoming showcase on what a anime horror/thriller/slasher movie should look like... :uhoh:
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-20, 05:20
More worried about Teana. Poor girl has some really stacked odds to overcome.
Then again, I just realised the Numbers have boxed themselves in with the Higurashi Hatchet Girl as a playmate :uhoh: In addition to her known ruthless streak [headshot to loli, crit. strikes to Nanoha, friendly fire incident, ect... :eyespin:], she's also shown to be driven, resourceful as well as highly unconventional.
Still feel she can use her fakes though, the Number girls only found her out by disregarding her false attacks and narrowing in on the real ones. Good for Jail if he put that in [Numbers must be pissed it took so long :heh:]. Cornered, injured and forced into some "out-of-the-box" thinking, I believe there will be an upcoming showcase on what a anime horror/thriller/slasher movie should look like... :uhoh:
Forgot about Teana also, she's in a more worst situation than anyone out in the battlefield right now...I mean she has three Numbers to deal with and some drones also. Not to mention an injured ankle and thus resorting to taking cover most of the time, thinking of new strategies to come up with to out smart the Numbers.
Although, judging from the spoilers of episode 21-23 back in the episode 20 thread, there is still hope for Teana.
I'd say for now, the ones that have taken heavy damage from the start is Teana and Vita. Both are in situations were things can get so desperate that one bad move could be your own downfall.
Anyone else thinking their decition making was far better in A's. (when they were supposedly untrained civilians)
So much inconsistency, and not just in the military aspects, they could have at least given us some Subaru DBZ spice.
Aaron008R
2007-08-20, 05:28
Well, since most of the other matters have been discussed, I wonder what the fleet would do once they (finally:heh:) arrive.
Provided the Cradle's threat level and what have been shown to be the armaments of ships, (just the Arc so far) will they nuke it? Seems to be feasible enough if they can minimize the damage to just that area. But seeing as it is Nanoha, most likely the characters would be the one to fix things.:heh: But still, I sure hope they at least do something with that ginormous fleet.:heh:
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 05:31
Well, since most of the other matters have been discussed, I wonder what the fleet would do once they (finally:heh:) arrive.
Provided the Cradle's threat level and what have been shown to be the armaments of ships, (just the Arc so far) will they nuke it? Seems to be feasible enough if they can minimize the damage to just that area. But seeing as it is Nanoha, most likely the characters would be the one to fix things.:heh: But still, I sure hope they at least do something with that ginormous fleet.:heh:
Sink? :heh:
Do they really need that many ships to nuke the Cradle? And it'd be really strange if they don't have other weaponry :rolleyes:
Aaron008R
2007-08-20, 05:37
Sink? :heh:
Redshirt ships filled with nonames for raging motivation?:heh:
That's indeed possible, but it'll sure suck.
Do they really need that many ships to nuke the Cradle? And it'd be really strange if they don't have other weaponry :rolleyes:
If that's indeed the case, your Niddhogg will have the entire TSAB screaming, "Imba! Imba! Imba!"(Not like it doesn't already.:heh:)
But it would be cool if the Cradle could shrug of an Arc shot.:D
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 06:51
Sink? :heh:
Do they really need that many ships to nuke the Cradle? And it'd be really strange if they don't have other weaponry :rolleyes:
From the Asura, I strongly suspect that demolition gun is the only weapon they have.
I'm supporting the sink route. Seven Arcs worked so hard to make the TASB look utterly dumb. Might as well finish it...
Well, since most of the other matters have been discussed, I wonder what the fleet would do once they (finally:heh:) arrive.
Provided the Cradle's threat level and what have been shown to be the armaments of ships, (just the Arc so far) will they nuke it? Seems to be feasible enough if they can minimize the damage to just that area. But seeing as it is Nanoha, most likely the characters would be the one to fix things.:heh: But still, I sure hope they at least do something with that ginormous fleet.:heh:Warp in just as the Cradle fires its parting shot, then the entire fleet Shield Walls the shot off without a scratch. I'd even throw in some random redshirt yelling "Salamis avenged!!!", if anyone here is old enough to catch the joke. :heh:
Come on, this is Nanoha, where most conventions have been turned on its head, military doctrine included. It won't be too surprising if the Redshirts aren't squishy all of a sudden. :p
Nightengale
2007-08-20, 06:59
Wasn't Leone on one of those ships?
Maybe he could show us how legendary he really is...
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 07:06
Come on, this is Nanoha, where most conventions have been turned on its head, military doctrine included. It won't be too surprising if the Redshirts aren't squishy all of a sudden. :p
You know what's worse than the fleet being destroyed?
The fleet arriving late :heh:.
LoweGear
2007-08-20, 07:57
Warp in just as the Cradle fires its parting shot, then the entire fleet Shield Walls the shot off without a scratch. I'd even throw in some random redshirt yelling "Salamis avenged!!!", if anyone here is old enough to catch the joke. :heh:
Come on, this is Nanoha, where most conventions have been turned on its head, military doctrine included. It won't be too surprising if the Redshirts aren't squishy all of a sudden. :p
Well, the redshirts proved to be useful this episode, seeing as there's still quite many of them, and they even blasted an entrance on the Cradle's outer wall :heh:
And Salamis Avenged indeed :D
XV Captain: This ain't no Salamis Boy! No Salamis!!
You know what's worse than the fleet being destroyed?
The fleet getting scuttled. (by Chrono)
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 08:16
The fleet getting scuttled. (by Chrono)
What are you talking about? That's a GOOD thing :) !
In fact, I've already got a working plan in mind that he could use...
Nightengale
2007-08-20, 08:21
The fleet getting scuttled. (by Chrono)
Wrong. Chrono getting outstaged, even when in relations to the fleet, it's supposed to be his Super Chrono Time.
I for one can't help but continually associate Leone and moon with Dragon Ball, Roshi and Kamehameha to be precise. :heh:
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 08:27
Wrong. Chrono getting outstaged, even when in relations to the fleet, it's supposed to be his Super Chrono Time.
No no, you got it wrong :p "Super Chrono Time" doesn't mean that he gets some action... In fact he still gets shaft during then :heh:
It's all about the speech! The moral speech that goes along with it! First it's Precia, then Graham... So will it be Regius or Jail this time around :eyespin: ?
(Personally, Jail has my vote... >.>)
Mirificus
2007-08-20, 08:28
Not to mention that Scag has a bunch of additional girls-in-tubes. There's no telling how close they are to being put into service, as it were...
Planning on what ifs to avoid how to lose is the perfect way to go about actually losing. If Jail has as many more operational as your surmising than it isn't worth worrying about because in that situation they've already lost.
You have to base your plans on your best estimation of the enemy situation and intent. Attacking is actually one of the best ways of clearing up an uncertain situation. They know that Jail has at least thirteen numbers. If there are only a few additional numbers they don't know about in reserve, then there's an even greater need to concentrate their forces.
Characterizing RF6 as going on the offensive? Please. Jail's forces are the ones pushing the tempo. The timing of the attacks are up to him - the entire reason they can't all just go pile on his base is because he's sent out the Cradle, the drone armada, the Numbers. Sure, they're sending Fate to his base, but that's like trying to say RAF bombing raids on Germany during the Battle of Britain meant they were on the offensive. Their strategy is -entirely- based around interception at this point.
That analogy would work if rather than launching retaliatory bombing raids on German cities, the RAF had instead decapitated the entire German high command system and then destroyed all of the German military bases simultaneously. Attacking decisively at an unexpected point is the perfect way of seizing back the initiative.
I'm not trying to claim that Hayate's the next Rommel or that her tactics are relatively good. It's just that she's caught in a nasty dilemma - she has three major crises happening simultaneously, and she has to respond to each of them. It's easy to say that she doesn't have the personnel and the firepower to deal with them divided up, sure. But she's got to anyway. You can say that she really ought to write off some collateral damage, but that's not something she can do. More importantly, that's not something she could possibly order Nanoha and Fate to do. I mean, come on. The reason Fate is alive is because Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her. The reason Hayate is alive is because Fate and Nanoha specifically ignored an order to abandon her (granted, more of a suggestion in that case.) The idea that ANY of the three of them would consider their own survival more important than rescuing somebody? (Might cause angst, sure. Might be a bad idea, sure. But this... is... NANOHA~)
If she can't get her subordinates to take reasonable orders then she's a terrible leader. It doesn't reflect any better on Fate or Nanoha.
The fleet arriving late
Unless Nanoha or Vita can at least slow down the ship for a few minutes, the fleet's definitely going to be late. That was stated in ep 20.
Personally, I'm hoping to see the Cradle's Main Weapon firing once and its defenses holding off the fleet until Nanoha or Vita disable them. Wouldn't be as impressive otherwise.
Nightengale
2007-08-20, 09:27
No no, you got it wrong :p "Super Chrono Time" doesn't mean that he gets some action... In fact he still gets shaft during then :heh:
It's all about the speech! The moral speech that goes along with it! First it's Precia, then Graham... So will it be Regius or Jail this time around :eyespin: ?
(Personally, Jail has my vote... >.>)
Seems unlikely, unless Fate loses since I can't see her taking more than 3 hours. If it's going to be Jail, it'll most likely be post-battle. Fate's a little trippy since she's against the type of criminal she hates the most, but I presume she'll be professional and not slash to kill unless left with no options.
And to be honest, I'd rather Chrono's moral speeches of S1 get shot back in the face instead. Even more so if Zest really did die and came back the same person. And Al-Hazard. :3
Unless Nanoha or Vita can at least slow down the ship for a few minutes, the fleet's definitely going to be late. That was stated in ep 20.
Personally, I'm hoping to see the Cradle's Main Weapon firing once and its defenses holding off the fleet until Nanoha or Vita disable them. Wouldn't be as impressive otherwise.
Undoubtedly, the time doesn't match at the current pace, 3 hours being the fleet's arrival time and under 3 hours being the peak point for full powered Cradle, but was it mentioned how long it would actually take specifically for the Cradle to reach that point?
While Hayate clearly said that from the outside, they can't really do anything against the gigantically large Cradle even with numbers, since it's time specific, I wonder why they can't target the rear flight boosters or something?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 09:28
Unless Nanoha or Vita can at least slow down the ship for a few minutes, the fleet's definitely going to be late. That was stated in ep 20.
No no, as in "Show's over, pack it up people!" kind of late :heh:
Personally, I'm hoping to see the Cradle's Main Weapon firing once and its defenses holding off the fleet until Nanoha or Vita disable them. Wouldn't be as impressive otherwise.
Does it have any defenses to begin with? Or does it rely on the drones?
(Yes, haven't watched yet.)
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 09:33
Does it have any defenses to begin with? Or does it rely on the drones?
(Yes, haven't watched yet.)
It seemed to be firing some lasers ... Also I wonder if it has some kind of energy/magical shields against heavy beamspam, because nothing prevented the heroes from boarding it (though maybe it was down to let the drones out).
Nightengale
2007-08-20, 09:38
No no, as in "Show's over, pack it up people!"
kind of late :heh:
~~~
Does it have any defenses to begin with? Or does it rely on the drones?
(Yes, haven't watched yet.)
Doesn't completely fit with the prophecy on the sinking ships then...unless it refers to Athra alone.
~~~
It has Gottfried-ish cannons. And its not like its general outer walls are fragile, since Hayate did remark that from the outside, it's not something that can be best even with huge numbers, nor did Nanoha and co need to rely on a break-team to create an opening inside the Cradle, most likely from a weaker point, like the drone pods or something.
Inside has extra concentrated AMF and drones.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 09:43
Why couldn't the heroes go straight for the rear engines is a mystery though. I don't think the reactor room shall be lightly armored and/or have less defenders.
Why couldn't the heroes go straight for the rear engines is a mystery though. I don't think the reactor room shall be lightly armored and/or have less defenders.Maybe the fusion shields are harder than we expect, especially when stacked with AMF? Also, the engine draft might be strong enough to blow spells off course?
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 09:48
Seems unlikely, unless Fate loses since I can't see her taking more than 3 hours. If it's going to be Jail, it'll most likely be post-battle. Fate's a little trippy since she's against the type of criminal she hates the most, but I presume she'll be professional and not slash to kill unless left with no options.
The man is full of surprises remember?
Unlimited Desires Works
And to be honest, I'd rather Chrono's moral speeches of S1 get shot back in the face instead. Even more so if Zest really did die and came back the same person. And Al-Hazard. :3
Well not exactly. We can't be sure if it's the same body, or whether a not his memories have been altered (Have to wait till he confronts Regius...), AND he doesn't have long to live.
Even when putting aside all that, it's as much as a success as Fate was, I don't see any difference this time.
Undoubtedly, the time doesn't match at the current pace, 3 hours being the fleet's arrival time and under 3 hours being the peak point for full powered Cradle, but was it mentioned how long it would actually take specifically for the Cradle to reach that point?
While Hayate clearly said that from the outside, they can't really do anything against the gigantically large Cradle even with numbers, since it's time specific, I wonder why they can't target the rear flight boosters or something?
Btw, did they mention where the fleet is coming from?
LoweGear
2007-08-20, 09:49
Have we actually ever seen visible external engines though? The Cradle doesn't look like it has any :heh:
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 09:50
Rear engines might be a bit tough - it doesn't look armored, but by definition the nozzle would be designed to resist high temperatures and stresses. Besides, there's the problem of flying in against the reaction forces of the engine.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 09:51
Have we actually ever seen visible external engines though? The Cradle doesn't look like it has any :heh:
It does have glowing nozzles, IIRC they are pinkish.
Oh, BTW, I'm watching the show. I find it stunning our replacement pilot shows more evasive piloting skills than Vice, who so far had shown not even the skills for a sharp descent into town when targeted.
Oh, BTW, I'm watching the show. I find it stunning our replacement pilot shows more evasive piloting skills than Vice, who so far had shown not even the skills for a sharp descent into town when targeted.Might just be biasesness, saving the chance to dodge small arms fire for the ladies. :rolleyes:
But of course the flipside of the coin is that Vice kept the transport helicopter out of danger enough to not have that situation. :D
Something called the "Dead Man's Curve" I believe keeps a heli from descending beyond a certain speed, and to dodge a fully charged Heavy Barrel needs thrusters not just gravity.
LoweGear
2007-08-20, 10:01
Might just be biasesness, saving the chance to dodge small arms fire for the ladies. :rolleyes:
But of course the flipside of the coin is that Vice kept the transport helicopter out of danger enough to not have that situation. :D
Something called the "Dead Man's Curve" I believe keeps a heli from descending beyond a certain speed, and to dodge a fully charged Heavy Barrel needs thrusters not just gravity.
The "Dead Man's Curve" is actually a term used to describe the minimum altitude and speed a helicopter must maintain in order to achieve rotor autorotation in case of emergency. Below this "curve", a helicopter will have insufficient speed and altitude to perform an autorotation landing safely.
My opinion: Vice sucks at defensive heli piloting:p
The "Dead Man's Curve" is actually a term used to describe the minimum altitude and speed a helicopter must maintain in order to achieve rotor autorotation in case of emergency. Below this "curve", a helicopter will have insufficient speed and altitude to perform an autorotation landing safely.
My opinion: Vice sucks at defensive heli piloting:pOh. Mix up. :heh:
Anyway, the other thing is, Gadgets are a lot less acurate. The fact that there were two of them further reduced their hit rate due to the Anime Law of Inaccuracy of Numerous Cannon Fodder.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 10:05
My opinion: Vice sucks at defensive heli piloting:p
Well it was a sneak attack back in episode 12 while this time Alto was on full alert :p
Then again, it's easier to chalk it down under the biasness that they all so willing displayed.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 10:08
Might just be biasesness, saving the chance to dodge small arms fire for the ladies. :rolleyes:
But of course the flipside of the coin is that Vice kept the transport helicopter out of danger enough to not have that situation. :D
Something called the "Dead Man's Curve" I believe keeps a heli from descending beyond a certain speed, and to dodge a fully charged Heavy Barrel needs thrusters not just gravity.
If I remember correctly, his helo was never put into danger except that one time, and he did as far as we could see nothing. At least do some maneuvering, Vice!
Remember Ray Storm and it blowing past Shamal's shields? Now are we shown Ray Storm hitting and not even cratering the highway? Hah?
As least this one wasn't shafted and showed off her brute strength that allowed her to render Zafira combat ineffective in a single blow. Teana is lucky to be alive!
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 10:09
Remember Ray Storm and it blowing past Shamal's shields? Now are we shown Ray Storm hitting and not even cratering the highway? Hah?
Lazy animators are LAZY :rolleyes:
Estavali
2007-08-20, 10:09
As least this one wasn't shafted and showed off her brute strength that allowed her to render Zafira combat ineffective in a single blow. Teana is lucky to be alive!
Come to think of it, didn't Erio got hit at the back too? Man, that kid must be made of Gundam stuff.
More worried about Teana. Poor girl has some really stacked odds to overcome.
Then again, I just realised the Numbers have boxed themselves in with the Higurashi Hatchet Girl as a playmate :uhoh: In addition to her known ruthless streak [headshot to loli, crit. strikes to Nanoha, friendly fire incident, ect... :eyespin:], she's also shown to be driven, resourceful as well as highly unconventional.
Still feel she can use her fakes though, the Number girls only found her out by disregarding her false attacks and narrowing in on the real ones. Good for Jail if he put that in [Numbers must be pissed it took so long :heh:]. Cornered, injured and forced into some "out-of-the-box" thinking, I believe there will be an upcoming showcase on what a anime horror/thriller/slasher movie should look like... :uhoh:
This, I think, is a good time for Cross Mirage's final form to make its grand entrance. And if Tia has mastered that supposed Phantom **** skill, maybe that to can help turn the tide as well.
But at the end of the day, I still think she's gonna get out of this with sheer smart thinking. I might be biased, but so far the Numbers (other than Quatro and mayhaps Otto) don't seems to be very smart in terms of tactics as well (if most of the plans so far came directly from the Doc). Most of the time they do seem to rely on their unique abilities, pairing and element of surprise to throw out the opposition.
OT, but I was thinking: would StrikerS be better (and easier to manage) if the Forwards were Rare-Skill Users that have little to do with conventional magic? Subaru is already one (STKJ), Erio (human eel) and Carol (summoner) just need a bit of tweaking to achieve that status. Tia poses the most problem to this suggestion (despite the fact that she uses a rather unique form of Midchildan magic), but on the other hand this difficulty could also help to highlight her intelligence and give her even more development space (the good old "if this doesn't work, then I'll just make sure I make it work somehow!").
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 10:15
Lazy animators are LAZY :rolleyes:
True, but I was going on suspension of disbelief? Besides, this is the grand finale battle series. Put the money into this, man!
OK, Teana gets trapped into what seems to be a barrier, but who set it up?
Well, whoever is coming up with the tactics, they are showing much more tactical ability than RF6. The Numbers show a good grasp of the dictates of the situation - that little Forward squad is a combined arms team that really is somewhat effective only with all four present or at least two present. Break them up and they are just about as one-trick-pony as the Numbers, but the Numbers got more power. Good tactics Numbers, too bad this is MGLN and the best man doesn't win!
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 10:17
OT, but I was thinking: would StrikerS be better (and easier to manage) if the Forwards were Rare-Skill Users that have little to do with conventional magic? Subaru is already one (STKJ), Erio (human eel) and Carol (summoner) just need a bit of tweaking to achieve that status. Tia poses the most problem to this suggestion (despite the fact that she uses a rather unique form of Midchildan magic), but on the other hand this difficulty could also help to highlight her intelligence and give her even more development space (the good old "if this doesn't work, then I'll just make sure I make it work somehow!").
Involvement of the conventional magic makes them more versatile and open for improvements, I don't think anything should've been changed here.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 10:19
Lazy animators are LAZY :rolleyes:
Perhaps Ray Storm is counter-magic?
Think Mana Burn.
Come to think of it, didn't Erio got hit at the back too? Man, that kid must be made of Gundam stuff.
Remember, he was kicked around by the Type-3 :p ...
OT, but I was thinking: would StrikerS be better (and easier to manage) if the Forwards were Rare-Skill Users that have little to do with conventional magic? Subaru is already one (STKJ), Erio (human eel) and Carol (summoner) just need a bit of tweaking to achieve that status. Tia poses the most problem to this suggestion (despite the fact that she uses a rather unique form of Midchildan magic), but on the other hand this difficulty could also help to highlight her intelligence and give her even more development space (the good old "if this doesn't work, then I'll just make sure I make it work somehow!").
Illusion spells are considered rare as well, so basically all of the forwards weren't so 'ordinary' to begin with. They just didn't focus much on those abilities. I don't think they should get rid of the 'conventional' magic though, won't be as fun.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 10:20
True, but I was going on suspension of disbelief? Besides, this is the grand finale battle series. Put the money into this, man!
They have ~4 episodes of action to be animated, it couldn't be perfect.
OK, Teana gets trapped into what seems to be a barrier, but who set it up?
Otto
Perhaps Ray Storm is Anti-magic?
Think Mana Burn.
But it caused considerable damage to RF6 HQ back then.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 10:22
They have ~4 episodes of action to be animated, it couldn't be perfect.
Otto
Thanks, thought it might be her.
The Numbers show superior radioelectronic reconaissance capabilities as usual, easily intercepting enemy comms. Man, if they ever get Scarlietti, they need to make him a Modern Warfare Principles Instructor...
Finally, someone comes up with the correct tactics when faced with Sein - hit the ground. At least you'd force the kid out, as she just did. At least I think Schach can beat Sein...
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 10:24
But it caused considerable damage to RF6 HQ back then.
Or, she could have been controlling the output of the attacks.
EDIT: As in I scratch that anti-magic idea.
Estavali
2007-08-20, 10:28
Involvement of the conventional magic makes them more versatile and open for improvements, I don't think anything should've been changed here.
Perhaps, but it's the AMF issue that (for one) bothers me. From the start we are led to believe that AMF will play an important role in this story (RF6 was, IIRC, supposed to be formed of people who can fight better and normal magi, which may also include the Aces, in AMF-ed situations). All of a sudden AMF ceased to become an issue anymore, with the pink rays of doom and etc piercing through them despite their obvious ineffectiveness in the manga.
Aside my dislike for inconsistencies, I'm a firm believer of the idea that the AMF concept should have been one of the main underlining theme. Nanoha and co can say that other magi are helpless in AMF-ed situations but if they themselves can deal with these like any other situation, where and what's the difference?
Remember, he was kicked around by the Type-3 :p ...
They didn't show the actual blow, but with Deed holding her blade above head and above Erio, and that resounding flash of light, it's pretty obvious how Erio was brought down.
Illusion spells are considered rare as well, so basically all of the forwards weren't so 'ordinary' to begin with. They just didn't focus much on those abilities. I don't think they should get rid of the 'conventional' magic though, won't be as fun.
Who said about deleting conventional magic? ^^ I just suggest that the Forwards, at least, should be Rare-Skill Users. Nanoha and co can still stick to conventional magic.
Nightengale
2007-08-20, 10:32
Maybe Otto just controlled the damage and radius output?
After all, that attack was really meant to split up the Forwards so that things work to their advantage, since their best Combat Numbers (( Tre/Sette )) are back home and they can't completely rely on superior power.
So, they deal with the bothersome illusionist that is also the team center through isolation and superior numbers along with mixed combat tactics and range. I've gotta say, it was smart not to let the other Numbers face Subaru, despite Nove clearly wanting Subaru, since Subaru's extremely dangerous against close-combat Numbers, so Ginga was a reasonable choice, while Otto handles team coordination, and leave Lutecia to deal with Lighning.
Perhaps, but it's the AMF issue that (for one) bothers me. From the start we are led to believe that AMF will play an important role in this story (RF6 was, IIRC, supposed to be formed of people who can fight better and normal magi, which may also include the Aces, in AMF-ed situations). All of a sudden AMF ceased to become an issue anymore, with the pink rays of doom and etc piercing through them despite their obvious ineffectiveness in the manga.
Aside my dislike for inconsistencies, I'm a firm believer of the idea that the AMF concept should have been one of the main underlining theme. Nanoha and co can say that other magi are helpless in AMF-ed situations but if they themselves can deal with these like any other situation, where and what's the difference?
AMF concentration, it seems. Though still, it didn't make complete sense with the first manga chapter, where Accel Shooter was totally ineffective against FREAKING TYPE-ONE DRONES! That aren't even huge in numbers!
I don't mind the Aces having the ability to penetrate AMF, but they're shown to be like hot knife through butter in the anime.
Some aspects of anti-AMF combat seemed to have got brushed over by the simple assumption that since the Aces are so l33t, they can just overcome the AMF's effects by brute strength anyway, since the aspects of tactical combat and fighting in StrikerS is devoted towards Numbers and Forwards, and less of the Aces.
Estavali
2007-08-20, 10:35
Maybe Otto just controlled the damage and radius output?
After all, that attack was really meant to split up the Forwards so that things work to their advantage, since their best Combat Numbers (( Tre/Sette )) are back home and they can't completely rely on superior power.
So, they deal with the bothersome illusionist that is also the team center through isolation and superior numbers along with mixed combat tactics and range. I've gotta say, it was smart not to let the other Numbers face Subaru, despite Nove clearly wanting Subaru, since Subaru's extremely dangerous against close-combat Numbers, so Ginga was a reasonable choice, while Otto handles team coordination, and leave Lutecia to deal with Lighning.
Wouldn't it be more true that the chibis, or rather Carol, messed the original plan up by going after Lutecia herself, resulting in the current situation?
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 10:36
Maybe Otto just controlled the damage and radius output?
After all, that attack was really meant to split up the Forwards so that things work to their advantage, since their best Combat Numbers (( Tre/Sette )) are back home and they can't completely rely on superior power.
Perhaps, but if the kill or heavy damage can be obtained with the shot, there's little reason for them to be too unhappy about it as well. Ah well, at least the rest is intelligent on the Numbers' part. Maybe Otto just needed to watch his batteries or something...
Wouldn't it be more true that the chibis, or rather Carol, messed the original plan up by going after Lutecia herself, resulting in the current situation?
Well, maybe but I suspect they would have been split up eventually by the Ray Storms anyway. In any case, if that was the case even picky me won't blame them too heavily. They couldn't very well see Lutecia target the helicopter and do nothing. Yes, of course it is a violation of discipline and loss of the operational goal, but considering how much of that is already going on, at least they are being human...
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-20, 10:42
Perhaps, but it's the AMF issue that (for one) bothers me. From the start we are led to believe that AMF will play an important role in this story (RF6 was, IIRC, supposed to be formed of people who can fight better and normal magi, which may also include the Aces, in AMF-ed situations). All of a sudden AMF ceased to become an issue anymore, with the pink rays of doom and etc piercing through them despite their obvious ineffectiveness in the manga.
Aside my dislike for inconsistencies, I'm a firm believer of the idea that the AMF concept should have been one of the main underlining theme. Nanoha and co can say that other magi are helpless in AMF-ed situations but if they themselves can deal with these like any other situation, where and what's the difference?
I also expected AMF to play a more significant role.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 10:45
They didn't show the actual blow, but with Deed holding her blade above head and above Erio, and that resounding flash of light, it's pretty obvious how Erio was brought down.
It's not unlikely that he could have (just barely) moved Strada to avoid the brute of the hit :heh:
Who said about deleting conventional magic? ^^ I just suggest that the Forwards, at least, should be Rare-Skill Users. Nanoha and co can still stick to conventional magic.
But it's better to have a little of everything :p Though more focus on the 'rare skills'.
I also expected AMF to play a more significant role.
Nah,StrikerS dissapointed alot of us over certain things
Anyway,i would still complement on the Tactics used by the numbers though.
FlameSparkZ
2007-08-20, 10:46
Remember Ray Storm and it blowing past Shamal's shields? Now are we shown Ray Storm hitting and not even cratering the highway? Hah?
Actually, Shamal's shields were holding up, until Zafira gets thrown at her, interrupting her concentration...
And it could be that Otto can control the output of power in Ray Storm.
Chaos2Frozen
2007-08-20, 10:46
I also expected AMF to play a more significant role.
I wasn't too bothered with the AMF, but I had expected more from the 'shadow organization'...
arkhangelsk
2007-08-20, 10:47
Actually, it was the only thing to be done. Magic is basically the base of everything that makes up a mage or knight. Attack, Protection, Self-Strengthening. If you make the AMF too effective, our mages except for Subaru with her cyborg body may as well be ordinary.
I suspect that AMF simply makes it harder for a mage to gather and guide energy. Once you've fought awhile in those environments, it is kind of like adapting to thinner mountain air - your draw gets more powerful to compensate. Which I suspect is why ordinary mages are so useless against AMF. If you gave them a few weeks learning to breathe "mountain air" almost all of them will suffer only relatively minor reductions in combat ability. Too bad Regius never let them learn how to breathe.
Nightengale
2007-08-20, 10:50
They didn't show the actual blow, but with Deed holding her blade above head and above Erio, and that resounding flash of light, it's pretty obvious how Erio was brought down.
Well, she clearly didn't aim to kill.
Besides, Nove and Wendi were talking about how it's okay to kill Teana since she isn't on Doctor's "I'm interested" list lol.
Finally, someone comes up with the correct tactics when faced with Sein - hit the ground. At least you'd force the kid out, as she just did. At least I think Schach can beat Sein...
Well, Sein's implied to have little combat ability... so maybe her best is just swimming around hoping for cheap shots. After all, even if Schach hits the ground, Sein can just dive deeper inside, even if she can't see and move to a further point before rising up a little.
Besides, I suspect Cinque might come into play. Otherwise, Schach vs Sein will most likely be boring or one-sided.
Estavali
2007-08-20, 10:51
It's not unlikely that he could have (just barely) moved Strada to avoid the brute of the hit :heh:
In any case, I still say he's built pretty sturdy. We're taking about lightsabers here and even Nanoha can bleed from a little energy dagger.
Strong bodies must be a common point between Artificial Magi. Fate took SLB head on and merely fainted for a mere few minutes.
...
Come to think of it, some of the Numbers appear to give the Artificial Magi quite a bit of respect, with Fate and Lutecia both addressed as "Ojou-sama".
FlameSparkZ
2007-08-20, 10:53
Actually, it was the only thing to be done. Magic is basically the base of everything that makes up a mage or knight. Attack, Protection, Self-Strengthening. If you make the AMF too effective, our mages except for Subaru with her cyborg body may as well be ordinary.
I suspect that AMF simply makes it harder for a mage to gather and guide energy. Once you've fought awhile in those environments, it is kind of like adapting to thinner mountain air - your draw gets more powerful to compensate. Which I suspect is why ordinary mages are so useless against AMF. If you gave them a few weeks learning to breathe "mountain air" almost all of them will suffer only relatively minor reductions in combat ability. Too bad Regius never let them learn how to breathe.
Nicely put :D
Yeah, things where somewhat explained that way in the A's to StrikerS manga, AMF makes it harder to use magic, but not impossible.
And training under AMF conditions, that would super-power the cast :heh:
Regular TSAB clerks are practically useles, except for cannon fodder, most of them don't even have Mage Rank B :heh:
Burner of Anime
2007-08-20, 11:25
This, I think, is a good time for Cross Mirage's final form to make its grand entrance. And if Tia has mastered that supposed Phantom **** skill, maybe that to can help turn the tide as well.
But at the end of the day, I still think she's gonna get out of this with sheer smart thinking. I might be biased, but so far the Numbers (other than Quatro and mayhaps Otto) don't seems to be very smart in terms of tactics as well (if most of the plans so far came directly from the Doc). Most of the time they do seem to rely on their unique abilities, pairing and element of surprise to throw out the opposition.
OT, but I was thinking: would StrikerS be better (and easier to manage) if the Forwards were Rare-Skill Users that have little to do with conventional magic? Subaru is already one (STKJ), Erio (human eel) and Carol (summoner) just need a bit of tweaking to achieve that status. Tia poses the most problem to this suggestion (despite the fact that she uses a rather unique form of Midchildan magic), but on the other hand this difficulty could also help to highlight her intelligence and give her even more development space (the good old "if this doesn't work, then I'll just make sure I make it work somehow!").
Always found the girl to be the "jack of all trades" in the new team. With her stealth, ranged power and illlusions she is functionally "everyhere" [hence the center designation]. It's made her weaker overall in terms of killing power, but as I pointed out earlier- her willingness to land "kill shots" is the real determiner on how lethal the girl really is. Ep21 itself shows this, her initial counter offensive with the smokescreen had an attack that was likely fatal to Nove if it wasn't blocked :uhoh: [also a headshot >_<].
In this instance, the Numbers have to really consider if they want to expend the power to either subdue or eliminate someone who does not have a "befriending" mode :twitch:. I'd say she isn't worth as much as a research subject than Subaru or Erio, but I suppose the Numbers could learn much from someone who is utterly without mercy.:cool:
Hazard a guess? Teana's best chance is to neutralise Uendi first. Her heavy shield really spoils her attacks before working on Deed or Nove. Personally, an escape plan would be better though I suppose many here want to see violent power cleaver death :heh:
Nightengale
2007-08-20, 11:35
In this instance, the Numbers have to really consider if they want to expend the power to either subdue or eliminate someone who does not have a "befriending" mode :twitch:. I'd say she isn't worth as much as a research subject than Subaru or Erio, but I suppose the Numbers could learn much from someone who is utterly without mercy.:cool:
Well, even though it's not explicitly stated that they want to kill her, they wouldn't mind killing her, since she's not on the "I want him/her" list of Jail's, not in the slightest. :heh:
Estavali
2007-08-20, 12:09
Well, even though it's not explicitly stated that they want to kill her, they wouldn't mind killing her, since she's not on the "I want him/her" list of Jail's, not in the slightest. :heh:
Agreed. The Numbers don't appear to have any regards for lifeforms other than those the Doc's interested in.
And Nove's plainly itching to do something permenant to Tia, for whatever reason she has managed to link Cinque's condition to her.
Nightengale
2007-08-20, 12:18
And Nove's plainly itching to do something permanent to Tia, for whatever reason she has managed to link Cinque's condition to her.
Nove is clearly somewhat pissed that she's delegated to Teana duty. Her miffed look upon entering the barrier to face her shows that while she really wants to beat up Hachimaki (( Subaru )) instead, someone...probably Otto since Otto take the 'leader' role in this Forward match-up, decided it was too dangerous instead, since Nove's 95% melee and has a very high risk of getting one-hit-killed. On the other hand, Ginga's her sister so Subaru might hold back, and losing Ginga probably won't matter to them that much, since she's not really regarded as their sister, and Jail probably got whatever data he needs from her already.
And Nove said that she'll beat Teana up as a replacement for Subaru instead. :heh:
FlareKnight
2007-08-20, 13:21
Just not Teana's day no matter how you look at it. Going to deal with a really pissed off Nove due to the fact she isn't Subaru. Well if there is anything she can do it's keep them distracted and try to buy herself some time. Depending on how serious that injury is she might have trouble staying slightly mobile. Guess its time for illusion distractions and going for head-shots. Would be hilarious if Vice and Zafira shocked the world by making a rescue. After getting shafted for all this time Zafira showing up would be a surprise, though its not unlike he doesn't have to give some payback to the numbers.
Won't count out Vita yet. If there is anyone I trust to find a way to survive the situation its her. It'd be the greatest disappointment in strikers since Chrono's marriage if it went as bad as her being killed here.
Yeah looking like Lutecia isn't taking the friendship speeches all that well. But does seem things will go that route as was expected early on. Just need to have Erio and Caro beat her down first. At the very least people won't be able to say she doesn't use facial expressions. :heh:
Avatar_notADV
2007-08-20, 16:30
Yeah, Vita can't die - she wouldn't die even if you killed her. ;p I figure she'll show up at a dramatic moment with a "what, this? Flesh wound" line...
The real problem is that you can't analyze RF6 with conventional military thinking because it's a ridiculous construct in conventional military terms. It's barely big enough for a commando squad - you can't manage it like an armored division. It's full of former opposition and irregular forces. Tea really is the only "normal" military member there, after all. It's got nepotism beyond anything even remotely sane. Their forces get pulled for mundane guard duty (including -disarming- the strongest mages in the unit at the most critical moment - criminy, how the hell do you justify THAT?)
Even the idea of conventional military discipline is silly. In the modern military, men are generally considered interchangeable, outside of considerations like training and specialization - it is always the correct move to preserve command authority by removing disruptive soldiers from your command. But Hayate doesn't have, and has never had, that option. Nanoha and Fate represent priceless, irreplaceable military assets. Even if they're not unique in the world, it is absolutely the case that Hayate would not get another one if, for some reason, she kicked Nanoha out. If Nanoha decided that Hayate's orders weren't worth following, not only does Hayate have no method of stopping her, her departure would represent about a third of Hayate's firepower walking out the door with her.
(And, frankly, Nanoha has done just that before. TSAB demonstrably values end results over military discipline.)
It's been commented upon that Hayate may be a lousy officer. This is, to put it bluntly, likely true. And not really unexpected, to be honest - for all that she's a Lt. Colonel, she's also still only 19 years old. Her rank's honorary. It's not even theoretically possible that she was promoted for military merit alone; it's a reflection of the fact that she's her own integrated artillery battalion. (Nanoha and Fate being captains is a little easier to swallow, but even there, we have to assume that some of their rank is reflective of their powers and not their skills.)
For that matter, have we seen a single instance of competent leadership in the TSAB military? Ever? Once? We've had a heroic admiral who resorted to hiring a local collaborator to engage the enemy, sent her son into combat, and would have lost if the enemy they'd rescued -specifically against her orders- hadn't come in on their side. We've had another admiral lie his butt off, misappropriate a prototype, and engage friendly forces in order to kill off a little girl. The same admiral from the first example almost ended up turning a huge megalopolis into a bay, except that the same little girls pulled off a "this probably won't work" last minute plan. We've had a battalion commander overwhelmed by a -fire-, and who ended up ceding command to a sixteen-year-old who happened to be passing by on vacation and her talking doll. We've had a military high command who called in tons of high-ranking officers for a press conference, put their best people on security disarmed and out of contact, and whose killer beat-all weapons system totally wimped out.
It's more like, good god, where would Hayate have learned to be a good officer FROM? Who's her example? ;_;
And still, at the end of the day, the "concentrate against each force in turn" response is still too fancy. Works on paper, but if anything goes wrong, you lose and everybody dies (or whatever Jail's planning, heh.) Spreading out the forces means you're throwing people up against superior firepower, and that's bad, from a military perspective... but a great many battles have been lost because a force was concentrated against one enemy and another one came around to hit it in the flank or rear. Sometimes you have to send out a screening force to hold one part of the line while you go win the battle on the other part, even if that means your screen will get the hell chewed out of it.
Also, take a look at the series as a whole. Has RF6 -ever- acted offensively? Not once. In each case, they've more or less stumbled into a developing situation - drones on the train, drones in the air, drones attacking the hotel, Vivio recovery, GFHQ fracas, Cradle launch. Their intelligence has been, to put it bluntly, useless, for all that they spend a lot of time investigating. The first indication of an enemy's presence, in each case, is when one of them popped up and opened fire. The only thing they know about Jail's motivations is what he TOLD them.
I still hold that a lot of this is due to the writers of the show not understanding the military. They don't mean to make these guys look stupid and slow, but they want one-on-one (or three-on-one, sorry Tea) action at the finale, and they don't care if they have to rip on the TSAB in order to create that scenario. I think they want to project that Nanoha and Hayate are actually competent in their jobs, but they just don't understand what being competent in those jobs entails in the first place.
serenade_beta
2007-08-20, 16:35
probably Otto since Otto take the 'leader' role in this Forward match-up, decided it was too dangerous instead, since Nove's 95% melee and has a very high risk of getting one-hit-killed. On the other hand, Ginga's her sister so Subaru might hold back, and losing Ginga probably won't matter to them that much, since she's not really regarded as their sister, and Jail probably got whatever data he needs from her already.
I thought the same thing.
At the very least people won't be able to say she doesn't use facial expressions. :heh:
Yeah... When I saw the preview, I thought she grew older. I guess angry Lutecia isn't Lutecia... She looked like Rider and Scaglietti...
I might need some rest... Everytime Fate said Schach, I thought she said Siesta............
Otto- It seems no one knows his/her gender. I see people using "he", but I still think she's female. Has there been an official gender stated yet?...
Nightengale
2007-08-20, 17:41
Otto- It seems no one knows his/her gender. I see people using "he", but I still think she's female. Has there been an official gender stated yet?...
Well, when Uno refers to the younglings in general, she uses imouto-tachi but that's not completely proof either since if Otto is male, then he's the lone one, and at the same time, it's not strange for Otto to be female either, especially if she's the Kino boku-type. I don't recall any official gender being stated for Otto either.
Personally, I'll just refer to Otto in a non-gender discriminative way until its proven one way or another.
The real problem is that you can't analyze RF6 with conventional military thinking because it's a ridiculous construct in conventional military terms.
Anyway, TSAB's mission is more like police (and firefighters) than military.
They don't fight another country's regular army, but delinquents and natural disasters.
And IRL, hearing that the police did something stupid again, won't surprise anyone.
(Another of TSAB's missions is to enrol mages, to keep an eye on them, and make sure they will use their powers for right goals -- in theory.)
Mirificus
2007-08-20, 19:35
The real problem is that you can't analyze RF6 with conventional military thinking because it's a ridiculous construct in conventional military terms. It's barely big enough for a commando squad - you can't manage it like an armored division. It's full of former opposition and irregular forces. Tea really is the only "normal" military member there, after all. It's got nepotism beyond anything even remotely sane. Their forces get pulled for mundane guard duty (including -disarming- the strongest mages in the unit at the most critical moment - criminy, how the hell do you justify THAT?)
The basic principles of objective, offensive, mass, economy of force, maneuver, unity of command, surprise, security and simplicity apply from army group size units all the way down to the section/fire team level. The way the unit is organized and trained is ludicrous but, from Hayate's perspective, she still has two independent maneuver units to work with and the HQ unit as a reserve.
Even the idea of conventional military discipline is silly. In the modern military, men are generally considered interchangeable, outside of considerations like training and specialization - it is always the correct move to preserve command authority by removing disruptive soldiers from your command. But Hayate doesn't have, and has never had, that option. Nanoha and Fate represent priceless, irreplaceable military assets. Even if they're not unique in the world, it is absolutely the case that Hayate would not get another one if, for some reason, she kicked Nanoha out. If Nanoha decided that Hayate's orders weren't worth following, not only does Hayate have no method of stopping her, her departure would represent about a third of Hayate's firepower walking out the door with her.
(And, frankly, Nanoha has done just that before. TSAB demonstrably values end results over military discipline.)
Episodes 17 and 21 are not exactly demonstrating favorable results.
It's been commented upon that Hayate may be a lousy officer. This is, to put it bluntly, likely true. And not really unexpected, to be honest - for all that she's a Lt. Colonel, she's also still only 19 years old. Her rank's honorary. It's not even theoretically possible that she was promoted for military merit alone; it's a reflection of the fact that she's her own integrated artillery battalion. (Nanoha and Fate being captains is a little easier to swallow, but even there, we have to assume that some of their rank is reflective of their powers and not their skills.)
This made me feel kind of bad when I re-watched the end of 13. Hayate clearly should have the willpower to do things properly.
And still, at the end of the day, the "concentrate against each force in turn" response is still too fancy. Works on paper, but if anything goes wrong, you lose and everybody dies (or whatever Jail's planning, heh.) Spreading out the forces means you're throwing people up against superior firepower, and that's bad, from a military perspective... but a great many battles have been lost because a force was concentrated against one enemy and another one came around to hit it in the flank or rear. Sometimes you have to send out a screening force to hold one part of the line while you go win the battle on the other part, even if that means your screen will get the hell chewed out of it.
How is massing your forces together more complicated then ensuring each separate force has enough combat power to win at each objective before you even send them out?
Each force will also be kept in combat for longer in relatively static situations greatly diminishing their combat power. Surprise and initiative are forfeit. There's no depth in the deployment and no reserves. I did advocate holding attacks or feints but those are secondary missions and should be treated accordingly. It's probably the best use of the flying mages Hayate had with her.
I'm just going to quote from FM100-5 since it sums it up nicely:
Combat power is created by combining the elements of maneuver, firepower, protection, and leadership. Overwhelming combat power is achieved when all combat elements are violently brought to bear quickly, giving the enemy no opportunity to respond with coordinated or effective opposition.
Commanders seek to apply overwhelming combat power to achieve victory at minimal cost. They integrate and coordinate a variety of functions with the elements of combat power to sustain it at the operational and tactical levels. They strive to convert the potential of forces, resources, and opportunities into actual capability through violent, coordinated action at the decisive time and place. They attempt to defeat the enemy’s combat power by interfering with his ability to maneuver, apply firepower, or provide protection. Commanders multiply the effects of combat power through the integrated efforts of combat, CS, and CSS arms, as well as the forces of the Air Force, Marine Corps, and Navy.
Overwhelming combat power offers RF6 its best chance to avoid being bogged down. If it can't use speed, mobility, surprise and deception to become strong enough at the decisive point, then the battle has already been lost even before it has begun.
Also note the importance of combined arms. RF6 ignores potential force multipliers offered by other forces like the fleet teleporters.
I still hold that a lot of this is due to the writers of the show not understanding the military. They don't mean to make these guys look stupid and slow, but they want one-on-one (or three-on-one, sorry Tea) action at the finale, and they don't care if they have to rip on the TSAB in order to create that scenario. I think they want to project that Nanoha and Hayate are actually competent in their jobs, but they just don't understand what being competent in those jobs entails in the first place.
Like I've said before, the writers seem to have trouble finding a good balance between writing for magical girls and writing for what should be a competent military unit.
arkhangelsk
2007-08-21, 00:30
Since Mirificus already did all the tactical stuff, I'd do the rest.
Yeah, Vita can't die - she wouldn't die even if you killed her. ;p I figure she'll show up at a dramatic moment with a "what, this? Flesh wound" line...
The real problem is that you can't analyze RF6 with conventional military thinking because it's a ridiculous construct in conventional military terms. It's barely big enough for a commando squad - you can't manage it like an armored division. It's full of former opposition and irregular forces. Tea really is the only "normal" military member there, after all. It's got nepotism beyond anything even remotely sane. Their forces get pulled for mundane guard duty (including -disarming- the strongest mages in the unit at the most critical moment - criminy, how the hell do you justify THAT?)
While all this is true, they are faced with a military situation, so what will determine their success, barring intervention from God (Seven Arcs), will be military standards.
Even the idea of conventional military discipline is silly. In the modern military, men are generally considered interchangeable, outside of considerations like training and specialization - it is always the correct move to preserve command authority by removing disruptive soldiers from your command. But Hayate doesn't have, and has never had, that option. Nanoha and Fate represent priceless, irreplaceable military assets. Even if they're not unique in the world, it is absolutely the case that Hayate would not get another one if, for some reason, she kicked Nanoha out. If Nanoha decided that Hayate's orders weren't worth following, not only does Hayate have no method of stopping her, her departure would represent about a third of Hayate's firepower walking out the door with her.
Doesn't say much for them if Hayate has to kick Nanoha / Fate out for discipline.
(And, frankly, Nanoha has done just that before. TSAB demonstrably values end results over military discipline.)
Beyond what Mirificus already said about Results, this is not actually wrong. Discipline is a mere means to an end - combat efficiency and victory. If the best way for a military unit to fight well is to be undisciplined, that's what should happen.
It's been commented upon that Hayate may be a lousy officer. This is, to put it bluntly, likely true. And not really unexpected, to be honest - for all that she's a Lt. Colonel, she's also still only 19 years old. Her rank's honorary. It's not even theoretically possible that she was promoted for military merit alone; it's a reflection of the fact that she's her own integrated artillery battalion. (Nanoha and Fate being captains is a little easier to swallow, but even there, we have to assume that some of their rank is reflective of their powers and not their skills.)
1) RF6 is a glorified squad/platoon command, not a battalion. Platoons are thrown out to very green lieutenants out of their officer training school.
2) Hayate is also a ten-year veteran of service, much of which is presumably in high-intensity situations that should allow her to mature faster than normal peacetime service which most of our officers go through.
3) Soviet officers have taken battalions as Majors (roughly 10-14 years of service) - and they aren't even elite and no it wasn't wartime. Taking one as a Captain is fast, Major is around average, and Lieutenant Colonel actually meant you are slow or about to promote to deputy regimental commander.
4) It is thus actually possible for a commander of that time in service to have gotten there through merit. In fact, it implies that she will be a blasted genius of a commander, a Rommel or Manstein or Guderian or just insert your fave general, not the inverse.
For that matter, have we seen a single instance of competent leadership in the TSAB military?
Actually, by anime standards, TSAB was portrayed as relatively competent right up until StrikerS.
Ever? Once? We've had a heroic admiral who resorted to hiring a local collaborator to engage the enemy,
She did, at that point, have an original plan, using Chrono. All evidence suggests Chrono could have beaten Fate at that point in time if it came to a fight. But there was no reason not to take advantage of an opportunity to basically double their firepower, if not quite their combat coefficient due to experience issues.
sent her son into combat,
Nothing wrong with that either. Heck, Army General Malinsky sent his son Anton into combat in Red Army. His son's brigade was overrun by counterattacking Americans (and his son killed in an airstrike) because he underestimated the rate of the American advance and did not order the 49th Army Corps to shift to defense in time. But no one calls him incompetent - in fact Malinsky is probably one of the top five most competent commanders in the genre of late 1980s NATOxWP stories...
and would have lost if the enemy they'd rescued -specifically against her orders- hadn't come in on their side.
Well, because this is a Magical Girls show, by definition their decision was slated to be wrong in the long run. However, in terms of process, it was actually a good decision. There is actually a ridiculously high probability that Fate will take advantage of Nanoha's generosity instead of what was shown. What actually happened was ridiculously low prob except in a Magical Girls anime. Maybe if someone told Chrono he is actually in such an anime it might have affected his calculation. :D
Anyway, if we assume that Chrono was evaluating a high chance he and Nanoha can suppress the Jewel Seeds after Fate gets knocked out, it is tactically a great move. It is also a very military-style move, which actually gave much hope to the TSAB as a serious organization. Too bad it was a joke.
We've had another admiral lie his butt off, misappropriate a prototype, and engage friendly forces in order to kill off a little girl. The same admiral from the first example almost ended up turning a huge megalopolis into a bay, except that the same little girls pulled off a "this probably won't work" last minute plan.
Won't defend Graham, but I'd point out the "last minute plan" was actually scientifically substantiated to work with calculations before they executed it, so it wasn't just a Magical Girls-fare "we hope" plan - it was actually a plan with a high probability of success, and thus definitely worth going for considering the alternative. Again makes one feel optimistic about the TSAB.
We've had a battalion commander overwhelmed by a -fire-, and who ended up ceding command to a sixteen-year-old who happened to be passing by on vacation and her talking doll.
Actually, Hayate was there not because of a vacation. She was undergoing commander's training. Since it is nighttime, it is likely she was serving a shift as duty officer while her commander understandably went home for the day, and thus had to assume command of ready forces in an emergency until her commander or other senior officer shows up. Her readiness to assume command actually spoke well of her.
Not that the glacial response of the Aerial units wasn't a problem...
We've had a military high command who called in tons of high-ranking officers for a press conference, put their best people on security disarmed and out of contact, and whose killer beat-all weapons system totally wimped out.
Well, we all agree on that!
It's more like, good god, where would Hayate have learned to be a good officer FROM? Who's her example? ;_;
Earth, man, Earth! Don't you remember this wonderful land of wars, from which our little girl was born and where she lived till she was 15? There are countless good generals for her picking!
And still, at the end of the day, the "concentrate against each force in turn" response is still too fancy. Works on paper, but if anything goes wrong, you lose and everybody dies (or whatever Jail's planning, heh.)
Still beats a plan that won't even work on paper, and will only work in anime by the sheer intervention of Seven Arcs (God).
Sometimes you have to send out a screening force to hold one part of the line while you go win the battle on the other part, even if that means your screen will get the hell chewed out of it.
Wrong analogy. The problem is not that they are having a screening force as well as a Strike Sector. It is that they don't have a Strike Sector, no Schwerpunkt. All they have are inadequate screens.
Also, take a look at the series as a whole. Has RF6 -ever- acted offensively? Not once. In each case, they've more or less stumbled into a developing situation - drones on the train, drones in the air, drones attacking the hotel, Vivio recovery, GFHQ fracas, Cradle launch. Their intelligence has been, to put it bluntly, useless, for all that they spend a lot of time investigating. The first indication of an enemy's presence, in each case, is when one of them popped up and opened fire. The only thing they know about Jail's motivations is what he TOLD them.
This is actually one of the more realistic parts of the show. From what little I know of them, Police investigations tend to rely on human contacts that will betray the criminal. Since Scarlietti does not seem to have contacts with anybody except senior TSAB guys who were "beyond suspicion", it is realistic their investigation mostly draws blanks.
This is not to excuse their lack of a Signals Intelligence capability... with Scarlietti on Midchildra and yakking away on the radio with full high-res audio-visual links so often, it is hard to believe they won't have acquired his HQ years ago if only they had SIGINT.
I still hold that a lot of this is due to the writers of the show not understanding the military. They don't mean to make these guys look stupid and slow, but they want one-on-one (or three-on-one, sorry Tea) action at the finale, and they don't care if they have to rip on the TSAB in order to create that scenario. I think they want to project that Nanoha and Hayate are actually competent in their jobs, but they just don't understand what being competent in those jobs entails in the first place.
Must not fully agree. If you don't know competence, the trick is to avoid people scrutinizing your choices too closely. Since this is a Magical Girl anime, this is actually not difficult.
1) Any plan your protagonist issues must be shown to be successful (at the very least it shouldn't look like a disaster). The audience understands that a) they probably don't know the fine details of the situation as well as the protagonists and b) that the scriptwriters aren't likely to be true tactical geniuses. Between these two factors, as long as your plan looks reasonably successful on screen, they will give your character the benefit of the doubt.
This already worked to Seven Arcs' favor in Ep7 and Ep12 of StrikerS, as well as Nanoha A's. It also works with Scarlietti - he is actually also dispersing his forces in Ep21, which may be his eventual downfall, but since so far he's shown to be relatively successful, the audience will rationalize his tactics as good use of Economy of Force through his understanding of his enemy (though we know whatever tactics he chooses he's already slated to fail).
2) Any plan that is to fail or place your protagonists in a very tough spot must be fully attributed to someone else, because those plans will be scrutinized and most likely found wanting. Failure to do this in Ep17 and Ep21 is why they are being blasted to bits.
3) Be very careful when you have a protagonist's plan fail. It is possible to do so and make him not look like an idiot, but only if the plan is carefully laid out with his reasoning clear so no blame can reasonably be placed on the protagonist. Since this is hard, unskilled authors are best off avoiding this.
Avatar_notADV
2007-08-21, 01:21
If it can't use speed, mobility, surprise and deception to become strong enough at the decisive point, then the battle has already been lost even before it has begun.
Well, but they haven't been able to do these things. Their opposition has definitely used mobility, surprise, and deception to their great advantage to date - Jail's operating with a few advantages (namely, the other side not knowing about his force composition or objectives), but he's also out-generaling Hayate and indeed the whole TSAB. If RF6 is going to win at this point, it's going to have to rely on the individual superiority of their forces - just can't be helped. It's -too late- to fight smart.
The key thing about concentrating your forces at the decisive point is that you need to identify the decisive point. Hayate simply doesn't have the information required to make that determination with certainty. Is the Cradle the decisive point? Entirely possible (probable, even), but it's also the most dangerous - the one that's most likely to trap your forces against it and leave everything else uncovered, or possibly even wipe them ALL out; nobody's really sure how much of a threat that sucker is.
Is Jail's HQ the decisive point? Possibly - if they can force a surrender, the rest of it might not matter. But it could also be pointless to attack there. If most of his forces are already in motion, and there's no big "off" switch, then all you're going to bag is a loon, a secretary, and a bunch of empty drone-warehouses (plus the Numbers' spare undergarments, I guess.)
Is the big drone-cloud decisive? Certainly, current military doctrine emphasizes air superiority as a primary objective of any battle. If Jail gets total air superiority, it becomes very hard for the TSAB forces to coordinate and move. (This isn't so important in our calculations, since we've already decided that Hayate's not really suited for the other tasks anyway, and this is the one at which she excels beyond any of the others.)
Is the loose band of Numbers a decisive point? Probably not, compared to the rest. Thus, they're being countered with relatively light units. You can argue that it's better to ignore them altogether, which I could live with. But obviously they're up to something, and not only that, they're up to it in the middle of the big enemy operation. Presumably their target is worth the force dilution their absence represents! So you need at least token forces against them, right?
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-21, 01:29
I've got a little question about this episode...back in episode 17, Nove couldn't tell from Teana's Kage Bushins which was real and which were just illusions.
Now, from the looks of it, Nove seems to have gotten an upgrade which allows her to tell which is the illusion and which is the real person casting the magic illusions...was that a small upgrade that she did to herself before this battle began?
Anyways, if I remembered correctly also, Nove wanted revenge at Teana for making a fool out of her by creating all of those illusions of the forwards and escaping danger in episode 17. Maybe thats why Nove sticked to tracking down Teana and defeating her before she goes off to fighting Subaru.
Wow... I've seen threads with lots of posts, but not with posts that long.
There is one theory you have forgotten: suppose Hayate knows that this is MGLN? She knows that the Good Guys *will* win, so from her point of vue, it's better to attack on all fronts.
Did you read the first message of this thread?
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Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-21, 01:45
Did you read the first message of this thread?
heh:heh: sorry about that....I'll go edit and delete that part...:heh:
Maybe thats why Nove sticked to tracking down Teana and defeating her before she goes off to fighting Subaru.
I think the Numbers perfectly understood that it's better to let Ginga take care of Subaru.
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-21, 02:03
yeah, since they're both sisters, rather have them fight it out between them and just focus on tracking down the forwards and then eventually regrouping and going for the Aces as well.
But as for Ginga vs. Subaru, I don't think Subaru will go all out against her...I mean she is her sister and she doesn't want her to die from her own hands, but since Ginga has no recollection of Subaru being an important person in her life, she'll go all out in her battle.
As for Teana's battle, she has it worse than anyone out in the battlefield right now. But she has tactics and if she is smart enough to hide the Relic under Caro's hat back and nonetheless made the Numbers look stupid in episode 12, then she can get out of this mess and leave the Numbers looking all "WTF just happened".
I'm all in for Yuuno and Arf helping out in this battle....Arf looks determined to help out, but Yuuno seems to be somewhat, rebelling against the idea.
Burner of Anime
2007-08-21, 02:20
I've got a little question about this episode...back in episode 17, Nove couldn't tell from Teana's Kage Bushins which was real and which were just illusions.
Now, from the looks of it, Nove seems to have gotten an upgrade which allows her to tell which is the illusion and which is the real person casting the magic illusions...was that a small upgrade that she did to herself before this battle began?
Anyways, if I remembered correctly also, Nove wanted revenge at Teana for making a fool out of her by creating all of those illusions of the forwards and escaping danger in episode 17. Maybe thats why Nove sticked to tracking down Teana and defeating her before she goes off to fighting Subaru.
Nah, I think here she just filtered out the clones with the fake attacks and zeroed in on the one that really hurt :heh:
From the Numbers point of view, the good thing about this is that the poor girl just can't attack as often. :upset:
The bad, the moment she does it's going to have to be a killing blow :uhoh:
I really feel sad for any of the Numbers the moment Teana gets the chance to pull it off. The really sick thing about it is that the writing appears to favour something like this occuring for her to capitalise...
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-08-21, 02:48
Nah, I think here she just filtered out the clones with the fake attacks and zeroed in on the one that really hurt :heh:
From the Numbers point of view, the good thing about this is that the poor girl just can't attack as often. :upset:
The bad, the moment she does it's going to have to be a killing blow :uhoh:
I really feel sad for any of the Numbers the moment Teana gets the chance to pull it off. The really sick thing about it is that the writing appears to favour something like this occuring for her to capitalise...
For some reason, I can't help but think that the situation that Teana is in right now, its somewhat similar to Metal Gear Solid...I mean all the enemies are on high alert for Teana to come out of hiding, but she's hiding to come up with tactics and strategies to out smart those Numbers.
But I think no matter what Teana comes up with, it might not be that effective against the numbers. But she has surprised everyone with her Relic trick, so I'm convinced she will show off something quite unexpected...
Unless Cross Mirage has one last mode and lets hope that to be a sniper version than its dagger counterpart.
But as for Ginga vs. Subaru, I don't think Subaru will go all out against her...
Yep. After all, she can damage a few of Ginga's limbs, in order to disable her, and after a few days Banana Girl will be as good as new.
An Hero in Disguise
2007-08-21, 03:07
Well, but they haven't been able to do these things. Their opposition has definitely used mobility, surprise, and deception to their great advantage to date - Jail's operating with a few advantages (namely, the other side not knowing about his force composition or objectives), but he's also out-generaling Hayate and indeed the whole TSAB. If RF6 is going to win at this point, it's going to have to rely on the individual superiority of their forces - just can't be helped. It's -too late- to fight smart.
The key thing about concentrating your forces at the decisive point is that you need to identify the decisive point. Hayate simply doesn't have the information required to make that determination with certainty. Is the Cradle the decisive point? Entirely possible (probable, even), but it's also the most dangerous - the one that's most likely to trap your forces against it and leave everything else uncovered, or possibly even wipe them ALL out; nobody's really sure how much of a threat that sucker is.
Is Jail's HQ the decisive point? Possibly - if they can force a surrender, the rest of it might not matter. But it could also be pointless to attack there. If most of his forces are already in motion, and there's no big "off" switch, then all you're going to bag is a loon, a secretary, and a bunch of empty drone-warehouses (plus the Numbers' spare undergarments, I guess.)
Is the big drone-cloud decisive? Certainly, current military doctrine emphasizes air superiority as a primary objective of any battle. If Jail gets total air superiority, it becomes very hard for the TSAB forces to coordinate and move. (This isn't so important in our calculations, since we've already decided that Hayate's not really suited for the other tasks anyway, and this is the one at which she excels beyond any of the others.)
Is the loose band of Numbers a decisive point? Probably not, compared to the rest. Thus, they're being countered with relatively light units. You can argue that it's better to ignore them altogether, which I could live with. But obviously they're up to something, and not only that, they're up to it in the middle of the big enemy operation. Presumably their target is worth the force dilution their absence represents! So you need at least token forces against them, right?
It's never too late to fight smart, desperately trying to cover every front at the same time with inadequate forces is the way to lose.
I've already posted my view on a possible strategy. Hayate and air grunts take care of the drones while the main forces neutralize Numbers/Lulu team ASAP. Meanwhile Acous could keep scouting around the Doc's Lab as he's already there. When the first threat is dealt with (shouldn't really take long with RF6 both outnumbering and outclassing the opponents) we have a much more considerable force capable of assaulting the Lab (and seriously, make Shamal teleport them there or use the battleship for that, what's it doing anyway?) and at least one more team member to attack the Cradle, probably two more (with Reinforce II). When Doc's also been taken care of more reinforcements could engage the Cradle as well.
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