View Full Version : Lucky Star - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll
Kagami~n
2008-07-22, 17:29
Konata's appearance, references about her, and the lines of dialog and the humor are directly from the 4-koma; hardly anything was "anime only" outside of the mysterous intro moment.
Soujirou's recollections were also directly from the 4-koma.
This was almost pure Lucky*Star rather than any "Kyo-ani marketing" like a fair amount of the series suffered under.
And of course, the "height, personality" gag is one of the funny bits.
If I get cranky enough, maybe I should scan the specific strips....
That's pretty neat to know. I was actually assuming that it wasn't from the strips because it had diverged from the gags and stuff for a little.
If you should get cranky enough, they would be cool to see. :)
Ahasuerus
2008-07-22, 19:09
As a commemoration, one of my favorite anime-pics:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z97/PBShelley/anime/SouchirouandKanata.jpg
Too nice to hide beneath a spoiler tag :D
Usually I grouse about inline imagery instead of thumbnails to imageshack... but yeah, this is just too pretty to get angry about. :)
Ahasuerus
2008-07-22, 22:23
Thanks for understanding :)
Earlier I checked to see whether it had been posted before and had to go through all the spoiler tags to make sure someone wouldn't get riled up. But (a) given that the subject of the pic is what this thread is all about, and (b) if I'd have put it in spoiler tags nobody would have seen it most likely, I hoped that presenting it for all to see would be appreciated here.
And (c) I'm trying hard as hell to resist Imageshack because of the inconvenience of setting up yet ANOTHER account let alone dealing with their annoying popups would be more than I can tolerate :heh:
Anyway, I hope that the picture was enjoyed; it really is sweet :D
Kagami~n
2008-07-23, 09:09
Awww. That's so sweet. Their relationship made him seem much less creepy to me when I first watched this.
I found this episode to be really lovely. The whole last scene with Kanata seeing what the family were up to was sweet and the way that Konata and her father were talking about her. I thought the atmosphere for Lucky Star really changed on that one scene, because it was so much more in depth and got more closer to Konata's family and their lives. It made me think "awwwwww ^-^" to myself. I found it a really lovely episode.
Also, that picture is indeed really sweet. I love it.
Awww. That's so sweet. Their relationship made him seem much less creepy to me when I first watched this.
Naw, still a uber creepo in dad's wool! :) As cuddly as Humbert Humbert adopting Lolitia Haze. One of my fave lines was him scolding Konata sauntering into the living room in skimpy clothes; "Konata! You can't run around like that! Suppose Yutaka sees you??!" :D
Dee
One of my fave lines was him scolding Konata sauntering into the living room in skimpy clothes; "Konata! You can't run around like that! Suppose Yutaka sees you??!" :D
"I THOUGHT MY DAUGHTER WAS IN THIS RACE!! HONEST!"
That was my favourite.
What... exactly has he done to earn the title "creepy"???
"weird" maybe, "eccentric" ..... he likes petite women, but basically harmless.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-23, 14:40
Even his daughter is afraid he'll get arrested, though. And he's a lolicon who likes taking pictures of actual little girls.
I know he's harmless, but I can see why others would find him creepy.
What... exactly has he done to earn the title "creepy"???Didn't he go to a high school sports festival to take pictures of high school girls?
Sorrow-K
2008-07-23, 15:16
Well... the scene actually comes from the source material. The 4-koma Lucky*Star devoted part of a chapter presenting essentially the same material. And every instance of referring to Kona's mom is from the 4-koma series. Even most of the "dad-Kona" scenes in the series come from the 4-koma (though specific product line mentions were usually added item).
So.... if there's a weakness in the presentation, it was there in the original material. I suspect KyoAni figured this late in the series was a good place for the sequence of mom-haunting because people were attached enough to Kona-dad and Konata and they'd seen dad's flashback of his life with his wife.
Myself, I was most fond of dad fondly recalling his time dating and being married to her - more than the later ghostly sequence itself.
If there was a problem with that scene, it was the sudden, jarring scene transition that followed it, although I do realize that Lucky Star is arguably defined by sudden, jarring scene transitions (they really just loved throwing us in mid-conversation, hence "it reeeeaaaaallly stinks".) Lucky Star has always had a "random vignettes hastily sewn together" feel about it, and while I don't completely mind random vignettes, the "hastily sewn together" part really got to me, particular in sequences like this where there's a huge mismatch between the sentimentalism of the Kanata scene, and the flippancy of whatever immediately followed it. Arguably it would have been better if this scene was put right at the very end of the episode. It was the most memorable scene in the episode (arguably the series), why not give it the final word in the episode?
I disagree with Kaioshin Sama's contention that the intent was to make us feel for Kanata in particular. The scene, I thought, intended to add another dimension to the Izumi family. We've seen how they live, all throughout the series; Kanata was, in a way, an embodiment of their (particularly Soujirou's) past. I didn't think there was too much more they could do. If they were to really dwell on establishing the nature of the relationship between wife and husband, mother and daughter, and do so constantly, throughout the series, the veiled attempt to ram sentimentalism down our throats would have become pretty transparent, particularly in a series like this, which is mostly facetious. No, I think one scene like this works well, but too many more becomes just that, "too many". What more could they do? Not much, really. Less is more. I just wish the series realized this in a few more instances than just this one.
I've always kind of interpreted Soujirou's behavior as "misses his wife" (the love of tiny petite women) -- as something he's grown into. But its also quite possible he was entranced with her because of lolicon-ish thoughts.
His otaku'ness (anime, games, and an unusual stay-at-home job) already doom him as being considered strange. I rather like the way the manga and the anime leave it somewhat ambiguous so that some might see him creepy and others see more complexity. :)
On a separate note, I concur with Sorrow's thoughts on the jarring nature of the editing. Even allowing for 4-koma adaptation challenges, it sometimes seemed they weren't taking the production very seriously (which amplifies Kaoishin's observations that Kyoani mostly saw L*S's anime as a platform for other things than L*S itself.). A few more viewings of how AzuDa handled the adaptation issues might have been useful for them :)
Didn't he go to a high school sports festival to take pictures of high school girls?
That he did. He was taking pictures of the girls doing sports and talking about "His Daughter" participating even though Konata was at home watching him on the Television. Haha.
Even in the opening he is standing at a street corner spying on those two girls passing by. That was a bigger hint more than anything for me. It is a wonder how he can do this sort of thing having a deseased wife and all. Nontheless, he is still an awesome and hilarious character. Episode Twenty-two showed the audience that a little bit.
On a separate note, I concur with Sorrow's thoughts on the jarring nature of the editing. Even allowing for 4-koma adaptation challenges, it sometimes seemed they weren't taking the production very seriously (which amplifies Kaoishin's observations that Kyoani mostly saw L*S's anime as a platform for other things than L*S itself.). A few more viewings of how AzuDa handled the adaptation issues might have been useful for them :)Is AzuDa the archetype definer? To me it was way too boring, so I don't really understand the need of using it as the basis of anything that is slice of life.
Does 'taking production seriously' mean making it look like its archetype?
I have a hard time perceiving you guys' perception of a successful product, so bear with me as I ask that you explain exactly what that is.
No, I don't consider AzuDa an "archetype definer". I was using it to discuss a specific aspect of material adaptation (scene shifts). AzuDa took 4-koma material and stitched it together in a fairly smooth fashion whereas Lucky*Star seemed to relish the discontinuous shifts.
AzuDa the manga, was also intended of be of fixed length (duration of high school experience) whereas Lucky*Star, the manga is more ambiguous in that respect (it'll be over when the readership falls sufficiently).
I'll agree that we probably could have snipped six or seven episodes of the AzuDa series and amped it up --- but since the apparent goal of the animation was pretty much to mirror the 4-koma page by page we got a number of "slow odd" episodes that many describe as boring.
No, "taking the production seriously" wasn't meant that it should be more like AzuDa or any so-called archetype, just that there were a number of aspects of production which had me wondering about their intent in bringing L*S to the screen. It seemed a conflicting mixed bag of intent considering how much wasn't actually "Lucky*Star".
I love watching Lucky*Star, I am faithfully buying the anime DVDs and I have spent a lot of money on the merchandise (manga, CDs, and figures) ... but it doesn't mean I'm a 'fanboi' that can see no flaw or that 'defends it to the death'.
On a separate note, thought experiment for people: Imagine being an adult and wandering around in a park, zoo, or museum. You see a heart-splittingly cute junior high school girl and would like to take her picture to cherish the memory. You think it marvelous that such things exist in the world. Are you a lolicon or pedophile?
Or perhaps someone who just appreciates "cute"....? :)
Anh_Minh
2008-07-23, 17:14
Vexx, lolipedofin.
No, "taking the production seriously" wasn't meant that it should be more like AzuDa or any so-called archetype, just that there were a number of aspects of production which had me wondering about their intent in bringing L*S to the screen. It seemed a conflicting mixed bag of intent considering how much wasn't actually "Lucky*Star".What kind of intent should they have?
On a separate note, thought experiment for people: Imagine being an adult and wandering around in a park, zoo, or museum. You see a heart-splittingly cute junior high school girl and would like to take her picture to cherish the memory. You think it marvelous that such things exist in the world. Are you a lolicon or pedophile?
Or perhaps someone who just appreciates "cute"....? :)If I was on Family Feud, I'll say Creepy. And I'm confident I'll get a lot of points.
(sigh), its rather sad that that is the auto-kneejerk response.... no bonus points for asserting Family Feud as some bastion of "what's normal" :) :) :)
Rather reminds me of when my 20-something aged son and I go out and about.
Far too frequently, people first assume he's my 'boy-toy' and we're out on a date.
I guess that's "creepy" too.... :P
It's not really about how you feel about it. If you don't think people will think it creepy to go to high schools and take pictures of random high school girls, it might behoove you to keep in mind that some people will go much farther than just thinking you're creepy. But whatever, I don't really care about the whole creepiness deal. Can you address my other question, though?
Notice I never mentioned "going to high schools" in my thought experiment ..... but if you're referring to Soujirou sports day adventure - he's rather inept. He should have hung a "Sports Photographer" badge on himself :)
As far as "intent should they have" -- I'm not demanding the animators have a certain intent which the "should" seems to infer, only that I *prefer* that animation people try to capture the heart of the material they're using and not layer all sorts of other things on top of it. Besides, as I said earlier I was discussing adaptation techniques and used a specific example of a difference, not comparing entire series.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-24, 00:35
(sigh), its rather sad that that is the auto-kneejerk response.... no bonus points for asserting Family Feud as some bastion of "what's normal" :) :) :)
Rather reminds me of when my 20-something aged son and I go out and about.
Far too frequently, people first assume he's my 'boy-toy' and we're out on a date.
I guess that's "creepy" too.... :P
What's creepy is that they'd make that assumption in the first place. What kind of world do they have, inside their heads?
Unless they caught you making out with your own son, you dirty pervert.
Kaioshin Sama
2008-07-24, 03:07
What kind of intent should they have?
If I was on Family Feud, I'll say Creepy. And I'm confident I'll get a lot of points.
Considering the number of hosts that show goes through I'd say you and everyone here has just as much a chance of being the next host of Family Feud as being a contestant on it. So you can ask the questions like you just did and we'll provide the survey answers. Seriously though, Family Feud just gives you the common American response which is so heavily influenced by pop culture at this point that it's kind of hard to take as a well-thought out viewpoint. The average person will just believe whatever he is told and that's good enough for them. No need to think about the in's and out's of anything or to consider alternate possibilites and belief systems. QUICK SNAP JUDGEMENTS AND RESPONSES ARE WHAT AMERICA WANTS! IN THIS VOICE TOO!
By the answer is Vexx. You are Vexx at 80 respondents. Kaioshin at 10 a Lolicon at 9 and a 1 at cute
What's creepy is that they'd make that assumption in the first place. What kind of world do they have, inside their heads?
People snap-judge assume he's not related to me and then they assume he's my date. It goes downhill for them from there.
http://forums.animesuki.com/%5BURL=http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://img77.imageshack.us/img77/346/vanddzj4.th.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5Dhttp://forums.animesuki.com/%5Burl=http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg%5D%5Bimg=http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/346/vanddzj4.th.jpg%5D%5B/url%5D (http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg)http://forums.animesuki.com/%3Ca%20href=%22http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22 %3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/346/vanddzj4.th.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Free% 20Image%20Hosting%20at%20www.ImageShack.us%22%20/%3E%3C/a%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Ca%20href=%22http://img604.imageshack.us/content.php?page=blogpost&files=img77/346/vanddzj4.jpg%22%20title=%22QuickPost%22%3E%3Cimg%2 0src=%22http://imageshack.us/img/butansn.png%22%20alt=%22QuickPost%22%20border=%220 %22%3E%3C/a%3Ehttp://img77.imageshack.us/img77/346/vanddzj4.th.jpg (http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg)
More snap-dilweed assumptions:
1) my japanese-american wife and my euro-irish self will be shopping and standing *right next to each other* often discussing an item. Sales clerk will walk up and ask her if she needs help. Then she'll ask me if I need help. I'll say "...... I'm with her." They get embarrassed.
2) Same scenario except they'll ask ME if SHE needs help (they assume she speaks no english)..... usually she'll respond in a nasty Texas accent. They get embarrassed.
I remember a Canadian border guard getting beet-red embarrassed when he asked ME if SHE could speak english.... I won't even repeat what she said in her growliest texas accent....
Kaioshin Sama
2008-07-24, 04:30
People snap-judge assume he's not related to me and then they assume he's my date. It goes downhill for them from there.
http://forums.animesuki.com/%5BURL=http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://img77.imageshack.us/img77/346/vanddzj4.th.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5Dhttp://forums.animesuki.com/%5Burl=http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg%5D%5Bimg=http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/346/vanddzj4.th.jpg%5D%5B/url%5D (http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg)http://forums.animesuki.com/%3Ca%20href=%22http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22 %3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/346/vanddzj4.th.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Free% 20Image%20Hosting%20at%20www.ImageShack.us%22%20/%3E%3C/a%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Ca%20href=%22http://img604.imageshack.us/content.php?page=blogpost&files=img77/346/vanddzj4.jpg%22%20title=%22QuickPost%22%3E%3Cimg%2 0src=%22http://imageshack.us/img/butansn.png%22%20alt=%22QuickPost%22%20border=%220 %22%3E%3C/a%3Ehttp://img77.imageshack.us/img77/346/vanddzj4.th.jpg (http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanddzj4.jpg)
More snap-dilweed assumptions:
1) my japanese-american wife and my euro-irish self will be shopping and standing *right next to each other* often discussing an item. Sales clerk will walk up and ask her if she needs help. Then she'll ask me if I need help. I'll say "...... I'm with her." They get embarrassed.
2) Same scenario except they'll ask ME if SHE needs help (they assume she speaks no english)..... usually she'll respond in a nasty Texas accent. They get embarrassed.
I remember a Canadian border guard getting beet-red embarrassed when he asked ME if SHE could speak english.... I won't even repeat what she said in her growliest texas accent....
Every time you post a picture of yourself with that awesome beardstache it brings a smile to my face.
Kagami~n
2008-07-24, 10:02
While I agree that Soujirou is harmless, and I may have even prefered to have a father like him to the one that I do have, I really do find some of his activities creepy.
I know a lot of it stems from missing his wife. I think a lot of it is just the way he is too. He did basically admit that he's lolicon in one episode, though I can't remember which.
I'm a girl. I know that if I were still in high school and I spotted a middle aged man taking numerous very enthusiastic snapshots of myself and my friends in our gym clothes at a sports fest (especially if none of us were his children), I would feel creeped out, uncomfortable, and I would want him to leave. I guess the point is arguable, but imagining myself as a subject in one of his escapades makes me shudder a little.
Rather reminds me of when my 20-something aged son and I go out and about.
Far too frequently, people first assume he's my 'boy-toy' and we're out on a date.
I guess that's "creepy" too.... :P
Now that is just wrong. Who would think that before father and son? Retards.
True enough on Soujirou and we'll assume that a student recognized him, knew that Konata was out for the day, rolled their eyes at Konata's incorrigible dad, and the rest got animated :)
We're actually derailing a fair bit from episode 22 (and my fault as much as any) :)
True enough on Soujirou and we'll assume that a student recognized him, knew that Konata was out for the day, rolled their eyes at Konata's incorrigible dad, and the rest got animated :)Wasn't Konata watching TV from home? He went to a totally different school's sports festival and took pictures of girls.
Konata's father was a main participant in episode 22, therefore we should see this more of "side-tracking" as opposed to "off-topic"...(play along)
Konata's father did go to another sports festival that Konata never attended, and even when he went to her real one he was just taking pictures of random school girls whom were in the races and events..as it showed. Then those coaches carry him off, which is a huge hint of what he is doing. (I wonder what he does with the pictures that he takes..)
I suppose he is just used to girls that are similar to Kanata's size. She was not exactly a loli as she was way over the legal age...and a mother. It was funny though when Kagami sees that picture of Kanata with Soujiro together and thinks that it is Konata. Then when Konata explains to her that it is her mother, she says "Is that even legal?". That made me laugh.
Well, he simply admires them of course :) :P
Hmmm, don't recall him visiting any school but Konata's but it isn't hard to imagine him just wandering around anywhere anytime snapping pictures of his favorite flavor of girl.
The word "loli" has gotten so smushed up by misapplication it hardly has a standard meaning anymore (outside of Japan at least). Many people would simply tag Kanata as "loli" regardless of her age or motherhood.
Kagami (righteous little thing she is :) ) ... may not even realize Konata's parents were the same age. She's hilarious when her braingears grind like that.
Well, he simply admires them of course :) :P
Hmmm, don't recall him visiting any school but Konata's but it isn't hard to imagine him just wandering around anywhere anytime snapping pictures of his favorite flavor of girl.
The word "loli" has gotten so smushed up by misapplication it hardly has a standard meaning anymore (outside of Japan at least). Many people would simply tag Kanata as "loli" regardless of her age or motherhood.
Kagami (righteous little thing she is :) ) ... may not even realize Konata's parents were the same age. She's hilarious when her braingears grind like that.
It is one of the very first episodes where Konata is watching some kind of News programme where you see him at a school sports festival, and he says "I just can't wait to see my daughter and cheer her on" and stuff like that, then Konata is like "Oh Daddy, it's obvious what you are doing".
"Lolicon" defines girls whom are underaged. Therefore Kanata is not a loli, and neither is Konata for that matter although people always suspect that she is. She is 17-18 through the series, which is of legal age. (Kagami is of legal age too...YAY!!). I myself am a loli fan and am completely harmless, although never would I go taking pictures...I stick to fictional and stay with what is still legal.
Yes, that is why I love Kagami. Her anger, assumptions, and the general way that she thinks is great, she is just so awesome!
Kagami~n
2008-07-24, 14:49
And you have to admit, Konata gives Kagami plenty of reason to make all the worst assumptions. :)
I am not a lolicon fan, and I hate being accused of it for liking Lucky Star. All of the main characters are legal, and not everything has to be about sex either.
But as I'd said, Kanata remembering exactly why she married such an odd, somewhat creepy lolicon guy like Soujirou was something that helped me as a viewer to see him in a better light.
Both of you nail how others misuse the term "loli" and I agree with you. They hurl it at anything that makes them worry about liking it until it sticks (e.g Manabi Straight, Sky Girls, etc). I happen to like small, petite women (am married to one) and when I express enjoyment of a classic like, say, Ichigo Masimaro -- here comes the name-calling from parts of the anime jungle.
Careful about the "underage" definition though --- that varies widely from state to state and country to country (ranges from 14 to 21).
My best definition is that "loli" (derived from "lolita" of course) mainly refers to that post-pubescent period of around age 12-14ish. Admiring women older than that is neither pedo nor loli .... just "underage" depending on what jurisdiction you're standing in.
But admiring certain types of females is one thing --- actively courting them can be something else. My wife knows a coworker who is 40.. .married a 19yr old from his church. Normally I'd say "well.. maybe they have a lot of common interests"... except that we know this guy and he's a spoiled immature brat so its not hard to do the math :)
Back on track: Aye, listening to why Kanata and Soujirou connect is pretty romantic and adorable in their quirky way.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-24, 15:34
In anime, loli-ness' definition is further blurred by girls who are really 700 years old, and may or may not have lived those years (as opposed to spending them in suspended animation). And then, there is the problem of behavior. When a girl is canonically 16, but looks and acts younger, as has caused a few argument in the Macross forum...
Re: Soujirou going to other schools. See ep 8. Unless Konata's school has two sports festivals a year, and she stayed home for the first, he has. (Or unless he has another daughter...)
And you have to admit, Konata gives Kagami plenty of reason to make all the worst assumptions. :)
Well, she's one sharp cookie for one! :)
I am not a lolicon fan, and I hate being accused of it for liking Lucky Star. All of the main characters are legal, and not everything has to be about sex either.... But as I'd said, Kanata remembering exactly why she married such an odd, somewhat creepy lolicon guy like Soujirou was something that helped me as a viewer to see him in a better light.
(Forget Wiki; has KA ever officially stated the ages of Kanata and Soujirou?)
I severely doubt Soujirou would've had the mileage he's gotten on the show if it was inferred or implied that he was just drooling/stalking legal age girls. That'd be such mild stuff it'd barely be a blip on the tingle screen. Soujirou clicks because he's a tease "latent" pedophile and rep of that lolicon subculture/audience base (that the L*S girls are often portrayed as looking almost grammar school age in ads and games pumps up this illusion). His forbidden vices are his titillating star factor, and one you sure couldn't hint on American cartoons. Okay, he's the lovable perv next-door we all can chuckle at like the affable neighborhood drunk, but there're more than a few places here in Middle America where he'd better not be smacking his chops a mile from a schoolyard else he'd be looking for a dentist. Yea, I call Soujirou a creep because he talks and walks it, and the worst thing is there're too damn many suave flesh and blood ones like him crawling around out there. But I think what most gave me the creeps about him came from what poor Kanata said of why she found him appealing; sounds hauntingly like the cotton candy denial you hear from abused girls and wives -- not to say Kanata was.
Dee
Kagami~n
2008-07-24, 17:22
But I think what most gave me the creeps about him came from what poor Kanata said of why she found him appealing; sounds hauntingly like the cotton candy denial you hear from abused girls and wives -- not to say Kanata was.
Then what exactly are you trying to say....?
If the flashbacks, the care he gives to their daughter, and the way he never ever stopped loving her (he hasn't even attempted dating), doesn't give you the idea that he was a good husband to her who genuinely loved her, then I don't know what will.
His image song is all about how he loves his wife and daughter, too. People can be creepy and they can have sick habits, but they can still be good people. When it came to his family, Soujirou was a good person. This episode couldn't have spelled that more clearly.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-24, 17:43
Yeah. He's not abusive at all. As we've seen at various points with Konata, if he has a fault, it's in the other direction. He can't bring himself to punish her, and she's completely spoiled as a result. (Well, when you think about it like that, she turned out much, much better than he had any right to expect...) The worst he is is occasionally pushy and clingy. But even so, Konata's pretty free.
what the hell?......... someone's on some channel at the edge of the reality dial here......
Konata cooks, cleans, plays games, and watches anime. Same as what I do on a normal day (exept cook, I fail at that). I am no spoilt child, in fact I am more than greatful for everything that I have and show it by helping my Mother with things that she asks or tells me to do, and Konata is probably the same. She treats her father really well and they are a really happy family, as you can easily see through some episodes..such as episode 22.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-25, 06:44
That's why I say she turned out better than he had any right to expect. But he lets her do whatever she wants. The one time he didn't was for high school entrance exam where he resorted to bribery to get her to work at it a bit. Aside from that, he lets her laze around and never do her homework, and play H-games.
There was the time where she came home very late, and he planned to scold her... but in the end, he just offered her tea. (Not that I don't sympathize. I'd have been as overcome as he was.)
Sure, they get along. But they're more "friends" than "parent and child". She loves her father, but even she knows he's not a role model - except she picked up his hobbies all the same. Does she even have a positive role model in her life? Yui is as irresponsible as she is. The only one who comes close is Nanako. And there are times where we wonder how seriously she takes her work, but at least she encourages Konata to have better work ethics.
Nanako seems to come across to Konata as a "practical big sister" .... the kind that says, "yeah this is bull, but ya gotta do it." So, yeah, I'd say Nanako comes closest to a positive adult role model for her.
Soujirou's influence is passive .... he basically sets a model as someone who makes sure there's food on the table and the house is maintained, he worries about her but as long as she isn't going down a really bad path in his eyes - she's got carte blanche to pursue what interests her. It is almost a given that she'll be going down non-traditional paths of education and careerdom.
We're also seeing Soujirou and Konata when she's in her late teens -- basically an adult. Their interactions kind of mirror my interactions with my sons: one is 18, the other is 23. It would be stupid to *tell* them what to do or enforce anything. I supply recommendations, speak up as a friend if I think stupidity is about to ensue, get mad at them when they come in later than planned and haven't called (just like a housemate should). Obviously, there's a lot of trust implied but its based on watching and rearing for the first 16 years or so. I'll immediately admit I'm mapping my own ideas onto the Soujirou-Konata relationship but that's just the vibe I get from watching them.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-25, 15:45
I don't know. I don't get the impression their relationship has changed very much since she was a kid. He's taken her along at Comiket since she was small, he's always let her play his games (including H-games)... He's always let her cram at the last minute...
And it was only once, but I think that time he almost scolded her was representative. I don't think he can go very far with discipline. He may have been more watchful when she was younger, but I think that's it. I just don't see him laying down the law, ever.
I agree that most dads with daughters are pretty much toast :)
Kaioshin Sama
2008-07-25, 22:54
I disagree with Kaioshin Sama's contention that the intent was to make us feel for Kanata in particular. The scene, I thought, intended to add another dimension to the Izumi family. We've seen how they live, all throughout the series; Kanata was, in a way, an embodiment of their (particularly Soujirou's) past. I didn't think there was too much more they could do. If they were to really dwell on establishing the nature of the relationship between wife and husband, mother and daughter, and do so constantly, throughout the series, the veiled attempt to ram sentimentalism down our throats would have become pretty transparent, particularly in a series like this, which is mostly facetious. No, I think one scene like this works well, but too many more becomes just that, "too many". What more could they do? Not much, really. Less is more. I just wish the series realized this in a few more instances than just this one.
Well I'll go a step further and contend that it would have worked better if they didn't try to have that scene. That way she just remains a solemn memory in Soujirou and Konata's life that the viewer can only wonder about, which works fine. By having that scene we have to realize the fact that we have no real reason to react or care much about it and by showing her it takes the mystery out of her entirely. So yeah, I think the scene had no reason to exist as there was no reason to make her a sub-character, nor was it really of any consequence in the end. It just felt out of place with the rest of the entire series.
And after all less is apparently more so I mean...... :uhoh:
CinemaZebra
2008-07-26, 16:44
My favorite episode of the show. Even people who normally find the show boring can't help but appreciate this. An easy 10.
I watched episode 22 again for the second time last night. With surround sound ofcourse.
Ah! It was even more beautiful than I remember! The part where it shows flashbacks of Kanata's and Sōjirō when they were together in the past was so nice. Amazing scene, one of the best in the whole series I think. I almost felt as though I should shed tears, although I am too manly for that! >: D
Nontheless, epic episode. I love it! ^_^
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r303/01sephiroth/22.jpg
Ahasuerus
2008-08-11, 09:56
I think the scenes of Kanata and Soujirou excelled in several ways, and departed pretty nicely from the rampant randomness up to that point. One, it sort of treated the second half as a full part in itself, which was a nice break. Second, it gave us a very familial look at Konata's home environment that had led her up to the present, which we hadn't really had before from any of the girls, actually. Third, I think it shed a lot of illumination on Soujirou, putting him in more of a sympathetic light as opposed to the comedy relief he'd provided up to that point. Lastly, it gave us Kanata, who through her own thoughts painted all of them in a precious portrait of a broken family still being held together by love.
4 (Lucky) Stars from me :)
Starting with episode 20 or 21 the series really hit its high-water mark and stayed there until that last scene (another favorite) :cool:
And yeah, Amray, my second time through it felt even more poignant, even though the element of surprise was gone. I didn't feel as "weepy" as the first time, but I think that I appreciated it more.
Sweet pic, btw ;)
KitsuneNineTails
2008-08-14, 10:40
I just watched it last night... It was really a small departure from the normally tongue-in-cheek frivolity and silliness that marks the series, and it really kinda showed a serious side with a real serious topic. It was a pretty heartwarming episode, I think, to start to see why Soujirou acts the way he does towards Konata.
First off, I'm in the camp that would say lolicon != pedophile. Being more attracted to cute and young-looking doesn't mean one is going to have sexual interactions with underage children, IMHO, even though several agencies like to make groundless and unscientific/un-researched assertions to the contrary. Plus, liking to look and having sexual intentions are not always the same. People like to look at cute and pretty things. Everyone loves puppies because they are too cute, we think little toddlers are cute, we like looking at pretty pictures and paintings. I don't think that necessarily means "sex" even when it comes to looking at people. Soujirou ogling at young girls (like in the OP video) and taking pictures of girls in track/swim gear is pretty creepy, I admit, but I found that pretty funny (in a head slapping "OMG, what are you doing?" kinda way), but as long as it's "window shopping"only, then at least it stays in the "amusing-creepy" camp and not in the "get thrown in jail" camp (which is why Konata makes that plea several times throughout the series, I think :)). There's nothing I've seen so far in he series that indicates that Soujirou has any perverse sexual intentions with his "lolicon"-ness in the slightest. He makes several references to him "winning" when he has three cute high school girls over for dinner or the fact that he lives with two cute girls, but it's obvious there are no sexual vibes at all, and it's more like winning a game than anything else.
This episode, to me shows why he's so close to Konata, and I guess I can empathize pretty strongly. I mean, imagine (or with some people, maybe you already know what it's like) if you knew someone since you were little, eventually fell deeply in love and married that person and had a daughter, and then that person was taken from you. Konata is pretty much all he has, and that she is almost a carbon copy of her mother (the woman he loved "more than anyone else in the world") makes him miss Kanata all the more and hence he's even closer to Konata than he otherwise would be. Him pleading with Kona-chan "Please don't die before me, okay?" was pretty poignant and summed up his feelings for her pretty well in my book, even if Konata didn't seem to quite grasp the seriousness of the situation or understand really why her father was acting like he was . I think his line "When I hug you its more and more like hugging Kanata, and my heart races (dokidoki)" is honest, but I think he says it to intentionally freak her out :), not to mean anything weird by it.
IMHO, the part with Kanata's spirit looking over how her husband and daughter ended up shows that she's happy and proud of how her family turned out, even with all the quirks. The bad with the good, and all that. Eventually she smiles and says how painful it is that she can no longer be there with them, and she walks over to be in their picture as part of the family. I think that was pretty sweet, even if it freaked the two of them out. :)
All in all, I liked seeing the show treat this scene with a more serious air and show us a bit about the relationship between Konata and her father and how things ended up like they did.
Ciao!
KitsuneNineTails
2008-08-14, 11:04
I'm a girl. I know that if I were still in high school and I spotted a middle aged man taking numerous very enthusiastic snapshots of myself and my friends in our gym clothes at a sports fest (especially if none of us were his children), I would feel creeped out, uncomfortable, and I would want him to leave. I guess the point is arguable, but imagining myself as a subject in one of his escapades makes me shudder a little.
I'm not a girl, but I sure can empathize with that thought... I don't think any thought less than "creepy" would come to mind in that situation. :) I'd think if he took ONE picture of a girl he thought was cute while he was taking pictures of a building, or a park, or animals at a zoo, etc. (as referenced in a post above) that might not be as bad, but going to a high school sports event for that express purpose... I guess it's amusing in the series exactly BECAUSE it would be so creepy IRL.
But I think those scenes were intended to be frivolously funny for that purpose (as was Kona-chan rolling her eyes as they watched her dad get shown the exit by the gym instructors during their sports festival), but given ep. 22 I don't think they were intended to show any deep side of his character other than he just appreciates young and cute. Whether that came about from his loss of Kanata, or was the reason he fell in love with her, I dunno...
Ciao!
BOOKGLUTTON
2008-08-14, 23:19
Lol, the fact that he said his heart starts thumping around konata I think pretty much dismantles your arguement, lol even dead the mom new. He was indeed...A TRUE LOLICON.
Kagami~n
2008-08-15, 08:56
I think the thing that really dismantles the argument of Soujirou being anything but lolicon is that he openly admitted to being one in an earlier episode. He's just a lolicon that stays within the bounds of what the viewers will accept, so he just winds up being funny instead of sickening.
KitsuneNineTails
2008-08-15, 09:36
Lol, the fact that he said his heart starts thumping around konata I think pretty much dismantles your arguement, lol even dead the mom new. He was indeed...A TRUE LOLICON.
Dismantles which argument (I made a few so I'm not sure which one is under question)? I don't think there's any doubt about his lolicon status, lol. In that episode even, he corrects Kona-chan to say "It would be more correct to say I'm ALSO a lolicon" (because he likes normal girls too). I also think he was being honest (as I said), but typically one does not SAY such things openly unless one is wanting to get that sort of reaction... :)
Ciao!
I just watched this episode and I must say that part with Kanata ghost really touched me *_*
Nukerjsr
2008-10-14, 02:09
About a couple of months ago, I found these pictures of the original manga scene with Kanata revisiting her family. I didn't think too much of them at first (And I found them at Something Awful of all places), but after quite an easy search, I found them once again.
I've looked through this thread and they weren't posted, but if they were already posted at the Image Thread, I apologize for my laziness. ^^;
(There are 8 pages, some of them seem to load slower than others)
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6710/52843602bd9.th.jpg (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=52843602bd9.jpg)http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4544/80003287uc5.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=80003287uc5.jpg)http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1476/37938876yf5.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=37938876yf5.jpg)http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8897/58013450jw7.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=58013450jw7.jpg)
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4126/22734619il7.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22734619il7.jpg)http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8711/28684391hs8.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28684391hs8.jpg)http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5034/44641611nm1.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=44641611nm1.jpg)http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7338/66139728be6.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=66139728be6.jpg)
While I appreciate the fact that this scene was actually from the manga and it's all in color, I do believe in the anime version was much better.
It just really set up the scene quite beautifully with the music and flow. It felt like there was a lot more to Sojiro and Kanata's relationship than we expected. Plus we get that additional footage that makes you feel for them more as they were a striving couple who were evolving into a full family. From the dates and ring and then Konata's birth.
The manga, while I like the fact the scene feels more geniuine to the natural feel of Lucky Star, feels a bit stranger. I do like the subtraction of Yutaka, because all she did in that long scene was make a cute face. (I know she wasn't in this particular section, but all the dialogue leading up to it about Kanata, she was in there for some reason) Not to mention that it says here they would format the camera rather than flat out burn it. Burning feels a bit harsh.
And it makes the two parents look in very dim light compared to their counterparts in the anime. Sojiro appears more a creep and Kanata has this strange sense of snark about her since she's frowning in nearly every page. Some of it made sense like when Sojiro revealed the ero-games, but wow...it's much more simple than the exposition in the anime scene.
Just thought I'd show everyone this.
Kagami~n
2008-10-14, 11:39
Funny coincidence - When I saw this topic was updated and checked out the comics, Kanata's character image song was playing on my ipod. Such a mushy song.
I agree, the anime was a bit more moving, though I can't really knock the original. The flashbacks really helped to bring home Soujirou's line and Kanata's reaction. So did the music. Animation nearly always seems to have that edge over printed media.
Oh, and thanks for sharing Nuke. I'd been wanting to see that.
About a couple of months ago, I found these pictures of the original manga scene with Kanata revisiting her family. I didn't think too much of them at first (And I found them at Something Awful of all places), but after quite an easy search, I found them once again.
I've looked through this thread and they weren't posted, but if they were already posted at the Image Thread, I apologize for my laziness. ^^;
(There are 8 pages, some of them seem to load slower than others)
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6710/52843602bd9.th.jpg (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=52843602bd9.jpg)http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4544/80003287uc5.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=80003287uc5.jpg)http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1476/37938876yf5.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=37938876yf5.jpg)http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8897/58013450jw7.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=58013450jw7.jpg)
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4126/22734619il7.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22734619il7.jpg)http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8711/28684391hs8.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28684391hs8.jpg)http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5034/44641611nm1.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=44641611nm1.jpg)http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7338/66139728be6.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=66139728be6.jpg)
While I appreciate the fact that this scene was actually from the manga and it's all in color, I do believe in the anime version was much better.
It just really set up the scene quite beautifully with the music and flow. It felt like there was a lot more to Sojiro and Kanata's relationship than we expected. Plus we get that additional footage that makes you feel for them more as they were a striving couple who were evolving into a full family. From the dates and ring and then Konata's birth.
The manga, while I like the fact the scene feels more geniuine to the natural feel of Lucky Star, feels a bit stranger. I do like the subtraction of Yutaka, because all she did in that long scene was make a cute face. (I know she wasn't in this particular section, but all the dialogue leading up to it about Kanata, she was in there for some reason) Not to mention that it says here they would format the camera rather than flat out burn it. Burning feels a bit harsh.
And it makes the two parents look in very dim light compared to their counterparts in the anime. Sojiro appears more a creep and Kanata has this strange sense of snark about her since she's frowning in nearly every page. Some of it made sense like when Sojiro revealed the ero-games, but wow...it's much more simple than the exposition in the anime scene.
Just thought I'd show everyone this.
How the hell my translations got to Something Awful I will never know (nor want to know). I've posted them here before...but I don't remember where it is now.
FYI, the manga was drawn after KyoAni put this in the anime. I guess Yoshimizu liked it enough to set this in stone as canon.
Nukerjsr
2008-10-14, 22:38
How the hell my translations got to Something Awful I will never know (nor want to know). I've posted them here before...but I don't remember where it is now.
FYI, the manga was drawn after KyoAni put this in the anime. I guess Yoshimizu liked it enough to set this in stone as canon.
Oh, don't worry, it wasn't a flame or anything. I think it was just a regular thread about Lucky Star (which I think is deleted now). I found it on a different forum.
But that's an interesting note though. I guess that's a pretty good thing, but it does make me wonder why it was shortened by that much. Too much work to do?
Oh, don't worry, it wasn't a flame or anything. I think it was just a regular thread about Lucky Star (which I think is deleted now). I found it on a different forum.
But that's an interesting note though. I guess that's a pretty good thing, but it does make me wonder why it was shortened by that much. Too much work to do?
Oh, no, no offense taken, I'm just a little weirded out that it ended up at SA of all places. I'm also not going to assume anyone will read beyond 5 pages of any thread...it's unreasonable torture to demand it from newcomers. >_>;;
I feel that Yoshimizu simply isn't interested in "traditional" long manga. I read in some interview that he admits he likes doing 4-koma best, and I've not heard of any "traditional manga" works from him.
This Kanata segment is the only non-4koma work I've ever seen from him (and frankly I like it). You can tell that he was jumping from one joke to another really fast, so it looks like he either doesn't enjoy or is simply not good at making the dramatic pauses we saw in the anime.
Kagami~n
2008-10-16, 13:15
His ability to render Soujirou in his cute style is quite disturbing.
B2-Lancer
2008-10-18, 11:26
Real bad flamewar on this Episode 22 topic I think at Fanfiction com http://www.fanfiction.net/r/4560347/
Still waiting on Kagamin-ShrineMaiden-Rin-Miku Avatar. Work still open?
Real bad flamewar on this Episode 22 topic I think at Fanfiction com http://www.fanfiction.net/r/4560347/
Still waiting on Kagamin-ShrineMaiden-Rin-Miku Avatar. Work still open?
I saw that. The story's pretty average, but the people defending it are making less and less sense with the walls of text...
Which means I'm totally done with Lucky Star on FF.net. The show's about to join the ranks of stuff that I like but whose rabid fandom I dislike.
Nukerjsr
2008-10-18, 18:04
I saw that. The story's pretty average, but the people defending it are making less and less sense with the walls of text...
Which means I'm totally done with Lucky Star on FF.net. The show's about to join the ranks of stuff that I like but whose rabid fandom I dislike.
I'm a member of the fanfiction community and I would just like to say that she's the only real annoying writer there is. I've talked to several others, even those who have strange or long stories. They are pretty nice and understanding people. It's just her and her "fanboy". I mean, there's traces of her trying to get everyone to read her story all around this board and trying to push her own thoughts on others. (Like shes says Sojiro is a pedophile, not a lolicon)
Kagami~n
2008-10-19, 18:14
I'm a member of the fanfiction community and I would just like to say that she's the only real annoying writer there is. I've talked to several others, even those who have strange or long stories. They are pretty nice and understanding people. It's just her and her "fanboy". I mean, there's traces of her trying to get everyone to read her story all around this board and trying to push her own thoughts on others. (Like shes says Sojiro is a pedophile, not a lolicon)
Aren't we all a part of the fandom too, Claies? ._.
I have to agree also. She's really the only "rabid" one I've come across, and I have a serious feeling from just reading the posts that her rabid supporters are all sock puppets.
Just another reason why I'd really like to see a fanfiction topic here... I guess someone needs to PM a mod.
We're fans, but I don't think we're rabid. Or so I hope. I'm not going to nitpick that stuff.
BOOKGLUTTON
2008-10-19, 21:38
You're only rabid if someone says "luckyshit" and then you do a wall of text and rage because of it.
Kagami~n
2008-10-20, 15:28
What he means to say is, as fanfiction authors ourselves, don't let one crazy person represent all of us.
typhonsentra
2009-04-01, 22:46
Okay I just watched this episode for the first time....
Pardon my French, but what the fuck? I mean, that last major segment with Konata was a bit much and way out of place in a show like this. It was nicely executed but yeah.... wow.
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