Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

Skyfall

2007-09-02, 08:51

Welcome to the discussion thread for Nanoha, Episode 23.

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Tormenk

2007-09-02, 08:57

Clearly this is the episode for the Stars to shine so we'll see how Teana does against 3 Numbers while trapped in the building with a wounded ankle. But how is Subaru going to stop Ginga while holding back? :rolleyes:

krisslanza

2007-09-02, 09:52

*Gets popcorn ready*
Even if RAWs won't be out for a bit longer... I'll need it for the summary ;D

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-02, 09:59

Actually, base on the spoilers, I'm interested in knowing what Quatto has to say about Vivio...

I mean, what OTHER big secrets could she spill?

Quattro: The truth is... Vivio thinks of you as her Mother!!

300: Well no shit...:rolleyes:!

Kha

2007-09-02, 10:26

Good question. I've sorta lost that fanatical fervor for Nanoha I had at the start of the series, so now I'm hanging around for what is there to be told in canon, since we're running out of time to do everything properly and save the series. :rolleyes:

This canon collapse reminds me of El Hazard - Alternative World. And guess what? It sounds like Alhazred. Che... :heh:

Haruka Tenoh

2007-09-02, 11:03

I think I'm just curious about how they're going to handle everything in so many few eps. ô.o

aers

2007-09-02, 11:13

*yawn*

When is this show over, getting up at 8:30 on sundays is lame :p

krisslanza

2007-09-02, 11:21

In three weeks. And I wake up at 6 or 7am everyday! Sleepyhead! :heh:

aers

2007-09-02, 11:26

sue me

dieci got one shot & bound, followed by a "are you..human..?" :P
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5941/vlcsnap10668333on4.png
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6299/vlcsnap10668415pp6.png

arkhangelsk

2007-09-02, 11:28

Keroko

2007-09-02, 11:35

sue me

dieci got one shot & bound, followed by a "are you..human..?" :P
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5941/vlcsnap10668333on4.png
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6299/vlcsnap10668415pp6.png

Buh! Bah! KEROKO!?! :twitch::twitch::twitch::twitch:

Seriously, a few minor alterations, like flipping the hair and that would be....

Oh well, at least I have material for Keroko's Barrier Jacket now. :heh:

FlameSparkZ

2007-09-02, 11:37

sue me

dieci got one shot & bound, followed by a "are you..human..?" :P
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5941/vlcsnap10668333on4.png
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6299/vlcsnap10668415pp6.png

OMG, Vivio went through the same transformation as Hayate in A's :twitch:

Funny enough, she's using Nanoha's hairstyle :heh:

krisslanza

2007-09-02, 11:37

Oshi that's awesome o.o
*Sues* :D

Kha

2007-09-02, 11:38

aers

2007-09-02, 11:39

Wow I missed any caps of Tea's fight because I was too busy chatting with someone about it, but here's Subaru.

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/10/vlcsnap10675762dt8.png
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/6867/vlcsnap10675894xo1.png
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8642/vlcsnap10676443ds0.png
Yes, that is Mach Caliber with excelion-style wings, yes that is Subaru's full drive mode, and yes, it is a complete ripoff. :P

krisslanza

2007-09-02, 11:40

What do we expect from the Nanoha fangirl eh? :heh:

FlameSparkZ

2007-09-02, 11:42

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 11:43

Well, honestly it felt more Bagram Regalia than Excellion-style wings, but maybe that's because it's rollers.

And wasn't Mach Calibur's heavier upgrade designed by MC itself... I think?

serenade_beta

2007-09-02, 11:44

aers

2007-09-02, 11:44

So...Ginga = KO?
If that's so, then Subaru can go help Teana...that is, if she needs help :heh:

shamal and zafira took out otto, dropping the barrier around tea. tea knocked out two of the numbers on her and the third isn't doing so well.

aers

2007-09-02, 11:46

Well, honestly it felt more Bagram Regalia than Excellion-style wings, but maybe that's because it's rollers.

And wasn't Mach Calibur's heavier upgrade designed by MC itself... I think?

I said that because Subaru calls it Excelion. It's conveniently right after a flashback to her telling Nanoha she wants to be like her.

serenade_beta

2007-09-02, 11:46

shamal and zafira took out otto, dropping the barrier around tea. tea knocked out two of the numbers on her and the third isn't doing so well.

*sigh*

I just woke up too... Bad way to start the day...

panzerfan

2007-09-02, 11:48

Tea's gamble paid off. I supposed being backed to a corner does wonders to one's resolve for survival.

Subaru... must have gotten some inspiration from Nanoha vs. Yami no sho fight.

I wonder how many gages are left for Nanoha's limiters at this point. At this point, I would not be surprised if Vivio will perish in 2 episodes.

Dark Wing

2007-09-02, 11:49

sue me

dieci got one shot & bound, followed by a "are you..human..?" :P
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5941/vlcsnap10668333on4.png
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6299/vlcsnap10668415pp6.png

See I told you there was more to Vivio then "moestock.":p

but Still damn it Choas was right she did go evil.:mad: This is a win/lose for me anyway I hope she lives after she takes on Nanoha. :(

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 11:51

See I told you there was more to Vivio then "moestock.":p

but Still damn it Choas was right she did go evil.:mad: This is a win/lose for me anyway I hope she lives after she takes on Nanoha. :(

Other than the obvious fact that she was clearly going to be a one-shot drama stock as well? Regardless, it doesn't change much of her status. What's done is done, and what she did, was only being a very weak character catalyst, a boring character on her own, and right now, a one-shot drama stock for Nanoha.

I mean, it was...very very blatantly obvious. The lack of an actual rival for Nanoha helps as well.

Not saying that this will be bad, since it depends on the execution, but I'm saying that this alone doesn't necessarily make the time wasted on her worth it. Especially even more so with NFanserVice since it could simply be NV, take up less time overall removing Fate from the equation and it changes nothing much, since Fate doesn't look like she'll be involved at all.

FlameSparkZ

2007-09-02, 11:53

shamal and zafira took out otto, dropping the barrier around tea. tea knocked out two of the numbers on her and the third isn't doing so well.

Oh, I see :heh:
Otto was left alone, so Shamal and Zafira got their revenge :uhoh:

aers

2007-09-02, 11:55

Oh, I see :heh:
Otto was left alone, so Shamal and Zafira got their revenge :uhoh:

Yeah, Otto was outside the barrier providing an overview and maintaining it - the other 3 were inside attacking Tea. This allowed Shamal and Zafira to get the drop on ..it.. with binds.

Thisguy

2007-09-02, 12:04

Either way it is... I really felt it was crammed beyond the line.
At this point, I can't agree more for Nighty's opinion about "wasting" time on everything else.

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 12:15

Wait... so Subaru and Ginga ARE related to Quint after all? As in their biological information's base. No, not Genya's. >_<

Feels like they're adding strange new dimensions for a new season... since this screams TSAB again.

FlareKnight

2007-09-02, 12:16

Still couldn't believe that image when I saw it. Of course this was pretty predictable to have coming. With them doing it with Hayate in A's they were of course going to pull that one with VIvio. Giving a big 1 on 1 match.

So Zafira gets his revenge at last eh :).

Mirificus

2007-09-02, 12:20

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 12:22

Well, Estavali, looks like they answered that Vivio-Drones question of yours. Vivio destroyed it, looks like via her Ancient Belka Rare Skill, which seems to have a rainbow-ish effect.

(( What's with all these Rare Skill l33tness though from dogs to fortune telling? Feels quite one-trick-pony-ish... ))

Saint King's...something. Mind someone translate? :p

Thisguy

2007-09-02, 12:26

Adding up the fact that the picture Zest thrown to Regius had Quint and (presumably) Lutecia's mother in it, Zest itroduces them as his ex-subordinates, and Regius being the supporter of SKJ projects...
This would answer several questions, I suppose.

- It's quite possible that Quint was killed 8 years ago too, same time to Zest

- As (presumable) Lutecia's mother was in tube in Jail's lab, it's possible that he has Quint's body too.

- Regius was a close friend of Zest, so most likely he knew his subordinates too... Now, who provided the DNA data to create Subaru and Ginga?

Saint King's...something. Mind someone translate? :pI think I heard it "Sei-Oh no Yoroi", as in Saint King's Armor.

Edit:
Although I missed it at airing, someone on 2ch pointed out that...
Cast List said her fullname is "Auris Gaiz" :uhoh:

Kha

2007-09-02, 12:31

Adding up the fact that the picture Zest thrown to Regius had Quint and (presumably) Lutecia's mother in it, Zest itroduces them as his ex-subordinates, and Regius being the supporter of SKJ projects...
This would answer several questions, I suppose.

- It's quite possible that Quint was killed 8 years ago too, same time to Zest

- As (presumable) Lutecia's mother was in tube in Jail's lab, it's possible that he has Quint's body too.

- Regius was a close friend of Zest, so most likely he knew his subordinates too... Now, who provided the DNA data to create Subaru and Ginga?
I think I heard it "Sei-Oh no Yoroi", as in Saint King's Armor.This Quint relation thing has been quite a twist. We went from "Subaru sure takes after her mom" to "What?! They're no related?!" to "So they are related." Seems like a cheap rollercoaster I hardly felt. :p

And I can't imagine Sakura Zaki wearing that Yoroi. :eyespin:

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 12:32

Adding up the fact that the picture Zest thrown to Regius had Quint and (presumably) Lutecia's mother in it, Zest itroduces them as his ex-subordinates, and Regius being the supporter of SKJ projects...
This would answer several questions, I suppose.

- It's quite possible that Quint was killed 8 years ago too, same time to Zest

- As (presumable) Lutecia's mother was in tube in Jail's lab, it's possible that he has Quint's body too.

- Regius was a close friend of Zest, so most likely he knew his subordinates too...

Well, I haven't watched till that part... but still...lol.

My OC crack piece about Zest knowing Quint and Lutecia's mom had some substance after all! :eyespin:

I think I heard it "Sei-Oh no Yoroi", as in Saint King's Armor.

Edit:
Although I missed it at airing, someone on 2ch pointed out that...
Cast List said her fullname is "Auris Gaiz" :uhoh:

Thanks...and GAIZ? If she and Regius is related, sure doesn't look too much like it. @_@

krisslanza

2007-09-02, 12:34

This is kinda creepy how some of yours (And others) little 'crack' things keep turning out to be somewhat true... :heh:

asaqe

2007-09-02, 12:35

I think it is like this

-Regius takes DNA sample from Quint to give to Zest. (Could be a medical test.)

-Zest goes and becomes a relic weapon for unspecified reasons while handing Scalleghetti the DNA sample to work with

-Scal Creates the Type Zeroes.

-Type Zeroes have Scal's DNA mixed in order to activate the OB skill.

Also on the note of vivio, maybe during the time she was making her escape (in her adult form or something, she came under attack, unleashed the massive burst attack and the strain of it forces her to remove the Relics and turn back to her child form.

Keroko

2007-09-02, 12:36

This is kinda creepy how some of yours (And others) little 'crack' things keep turning out to be somewhat true... :heh:

Some of us have got to have alter egos working at 7arcs.

arkhangelsk

2007-09-02, 12:37

In that case, clearly the problem is that we don't have enough moles in that company...

krisslanza

2007-09-02, 12:37

Some of us have got to have alter egos working at 7arcs.

Yes! Or some of you are 7Arc sleeper agents! O_O

holybell84

2007-09-02, 12:39

can someone teach me hot to navigate 2 chan or something? I wanna see the posts/ screenies T-T

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 12:46

You know, I find it incessantly strange that the not-that-bad-but-everyone-hates-them type of guy seems to only have his nicest points shown when they're pushed to a corner after we start disliking them. It ruins the gray character tension in my opinion. Still, it's nice to see Regius being shown to once be a good man (( apparently )) and coming to acceptance of Zest's coming, as opposed to his "SPAZ and HAET" which dominated his character portrayal.

And as expected, Zest didn't go there to chop his head off... at least not yet. His voice tone shows that he still considers him a friend... somewhat.

krisslanza

2007-09-02, 12:58

CHOP HIS HEAD OFF ZEST! D<
I mean who likes Regius? :uhoh:

Key Board

2007-09-02, 13:08

Zest wants to know who was responsible for the death of his team years ago.

Regius has yet to give an answer

His knight code prevents him from taking action before that

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 13:09

Zest wants to know who was responsible for the death of his team years ago.

Regius has yet to give an answer

I thought Zest asks if it's him, and not ask who?

And besides, from what Zest speaks of "where had our justice gone" talk, I think it implies that he already knows he's the one, but wants to hear it from his own mouth, since he's a friend.

Proto

2007-09-02, 13:15

Aren't people being a little too hard on the show and its flaws? I mean, just as you don't ask pears from an apple tree, a magical girl show with an action twist isn't expected to give you flawless plot execution and super-b developed characters. If you were expecting that, not only are you looking at the wrong show, but at the wrong genre. Sure, it would be nice if the plot had been masterfuly wooven, so that it would be even possible to give it an award for that, like Seirei no Moribito, Juuni Kokki or something of the sort. Sure, it would be great if it had super-b characters whose relationships and individuality showed real growth throughtout the series, like Simoun or Higurashi. What's more, it would be wonderful if they dedicated time to delve into the intrincancies of their world on how it has an influence on our characters, like in Aria on Mushishi.

But no, you are asking for something of the sort from a show whose closest relative are those of the sort of Naruto and Bleach, but with girls. Sure, it is several notches above those, having for the most part likeable characters so that you can (more or less) feel for them, having internal consistency and being realistic on its own terms, which is a great feat already for this kind of shows.

But there is a difference between that and asking a series qualities worth of a series of the year. Nanoha is a good show in its own right, considering the limitations of the genre and of the focus it had from the start. Don't ruin your own watching experience expecting something from it it was'nt even supposed to give from the start.

I'll agree with you though, that the show suffered from some deep direction problems throughtout the series, but most notable between the first and second half. If there is a flaw within the show that even I recognize, it is that they had no clear idea where the show was going from the start. It almost seems they only had a sketch of the plot and they just went improvising on the run.

Or in the words of my little brother: "Nanoha gives me the laughs every time someone uses some exaggerated technique or powerup, so for me Nanoha is like a magical girl action comedy."

Now then, on the topic of the chapter, it's nice to see a fight where there are more brains than pure "INYOURFACEIHAVEMOREPOWERTHANYOU". So yay for Teana and the league of "I-don't-like-DBZ-type-battles" Subaru's battle conclusion and its buildup was a tad too cheesy but we had already saw that coming from leagues before, so I'll have to give it it is consistent within its chessiness. On the downside the numbers are starting to fall like flies, but I guess it is to be expected with such a big villian cast combined with such a short runtime remaining. If there is ever a fourth season they will need to define better where are they going from the start or they will run in a deeper deadend than this time around.

Other than that, a decent episode, with the plus side of Teana's battle, Nanoha's exaggerated buildups and the laughter it comes with it, and some plot revelation at the end of the episode. (It seems that Regius liteneaunt is also part, albeit indirectly of Regius and Zest little circle of friends :p).

Key Board

2007-09-02, 13:23

I thought Zest asks if it's him, and not ask who?

And besides, from what Zest speaks of "where had our justice gone" talk, I think it implies that he already knows he's the one, but wants to hear it from his own mouth, since he's a friend.

that's just my phrasing of the words, but otherwise, yes, and yes

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 13:27

Aren't people being a little too hard on the show and its flaws? I mean, just as you don't ask pears from an apple tree, a magical girl show with an action twist isn't expected to give you flawless plot execution and super-b developed characters.

Actually, good plot execution is a must for any self-respecting show. A lot of shows have a fairly simple plot, but the importance is execution.

And if you ask me to give Nanoha my highest standards for character development (( as in Saiunkoku/LoGH/etc )) I wouldn't even watch Nanoha to begin with. There is however, a set-in standard when compared with other characters and previous seasons.

If you were expecting that, not only are you looking at the wrong show, but at the wrong genre.

We did not expect that, but we at least want what is presented to us to be presented well.

As in a good balance of plot, character development, build-up, drama, tension and all that...

As it stands, StrikerS is lacking in most departments, EVEN when compared to A's. No, I'm not pulling out names like Toward the Terra where the build-up is 3000 times better than anything StrikerS ever did.

Sure, it would be nice if the plot had been masterfuly wooven, so that it would be even possible to give it an award for that, like Seirei no Moribito, Juuni Kokki or something of the sort.

You know... we're already being VERY lenient on the plot especially when it's paper thin on a prophecy pun intended... Not once had anyone compare StrikerS's plot to masterpieces. However, can we say that it's not executed well, in respects to pacing, exposition and stuff?

YES.

Sure, it would be great if it had super-b characters whose relationships and individuality showed real growth throughtout the series, like Simoun or Higurashi.

Subaru is well developed. Teana is. Nanoha is too. Fate too in a manner. ( In the SS )

Erio? Caro? VILLAINS? Honestly, a lot feels flat as well. It's like character development was misdivided between important cast members. And by extension, a degree of the drama is lost, since with less character development, character dynamic and interaction loses a lot of umph as well.

Like Lightning/Lutecia.

What's more, it would be wonderful if they dedicated time to delve into the intrincancies of their world on how it has an influence on our characters, like in Aria on Mushishi.

Have we EVER complained on its worldly settings? In fact, most people didn't enjoy the history lessons, since rather than being shown, they're being told. Bad directing there.

panzerfan

2007-09-02, 13:35

We as viewers should wait for the entire story to unfold before acting as critics. Let the original vision of Masaki Suzuki be told before trying to view the situation from another angle I suppose might make for a more sound analysis and assessment.

Key Board

2007-09-02, 13:37

After watching this much I have a theory about Quattro

she's not just a mere number, but also, a project F product and backup of Scaglietti

in other words, I think she is a copy of Scaglietti's memories and personality in another body

Proto

2007-09-02, 13:42

Actually, good plot execution is a must for any self-respecting show. A lot of shows have a fairly simple plot, but the importance is execution.

I'll have to give you that for Striker's second half, where it seemd to lose any sense of direction. Prior to that the show was going strong, at least in my book. Then again, it is greatly a matter of taste (except when its so badly done everyone can agree on that) so this point is arguable at best.

Subaru is well developed. Teana is. Nanoha is too. Fate too in a manner.

Erio? Caro? VILLAINS? Honestly, a lot feels flat as well. It's like character development was misdivided between important cast members.

It can be argued that Nanoha is more than just the anime, but a project enveloping the manga and the sound stages. If you consider Nanoha as that, then you can count in many of the characters who were shafted in the series as having their share of development. You can just think of it as a new paradigm where the objective is to have more material for the show to be more developed/so that the otakus have more to buy= more revenue.

As in a good balance of plot, character development, build-up, drama, tension and all that...

It's not like every show has to balance all those factors, it all depends on what the series, producers directors and the people behind it want to do with it. Is Aria a bad show because it has close to nil plot, and the character development and growth is subtle at best? No, because Aria doesn't even care about those (at least for the former) It is a show about the world it takes place in, and about the interaction of the characters with such world.)

Likewise, Nanoha's plot has always been more or less an excuse for the character to have something to use magic on. Nanoha's plot has always been weak from the start, and the setting was never the focus to begind with, since Nanoha was more about the characters, their relationship with the magic they stumbled upon, with the hurdles they came against with and the confrontation between ideals. For me, Nanoha is a show about the characters and about their conflicts. Sure, it is by no means a masterpiece at that, since it has many flaws (including a big one called Vivio) but for the most part it is quite a decent project (in the anime/ss/manga sense) when seen from this POV

on another matter, maybe we should ask the mods for a thread about our opinion's on Nahoha's overall direction and related topics, since this is quite a recurrent topic in almost all the threads in this sub-forum.

Mirificus

2007-09-02, 13:42

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-02, 14:05

I'll have to give you that for Striker's second half, where it seemd to lose any sense of direction. Prior to that the show was going strong, at least in my book. Then again, it is greatly a matter of taste (except when its so badly done everyone can agree on that) so this point is arguable at best.

When it comes to the point where you have more people giving reasonable statements as to why the show isn't performing, as to the number of people defending it...

... You know something's wrong.

And this is not random people who had just pop in to bitch and whine, you're talking about people who watched the show from the very beginning. Hell, we've defended the show from the beginning.

It can be argued that Nanoha is more than just the anime, but a project enveloping the manga and the sound stages. If you consider Nanoha as that, then you can count in many of the characters who were shafted in the series as having their share of development. You can just think of it as a new paradigm where the objective is to have more material for the show to be more developed/so that the otakus have more to buy= more revenue.

But yet, in those stories (Manga and sound stage), we still did not get the development that makes the story reasonable.

The simplest of example is the Caro/Erio/Lutecia interaction Nightengale mentioned. I've demand it for the longest time, yet it's no where to be found. Nobody can Seriously believe that Caro would feel that way to a complete strange, let alone Lutecia.

It's not like every show has to balance all those factors, it all depends on what the series, producers directors and the people behind it want to do with it. Is Aria a bad show because it has close to nil plot, and the character development and growth is subtle at best? No, because Aria doesn't even care about those (at least for the former) It is a show about the world it takes place in, and about the interaction of the characters with such world.)

Unfortunately, Nanoha is different in the sense the it DOES require a good plot, and character growth and development is everything to it.

You can't just survive on interaction.

Likewise, Nanoha's plot has always been more or less an excuse for the character to have something to use magic on. Nanoha's plot has always been weak from the start, and the setting was never the focus to begind with, since Nanoha was more about the characters, their relationship with the magic they stumbled upon, with the hurdles they came against with and the confrontation between ideals. For me, Nanoha is a show about the characters and about their conflicts. Sure, it is by no means a masterpiece at that, since it has many flaws (including a big one called Vivio) but for the most part it is quite a decent project (in the anime/ss/manga sense) when seen from this POV

I don't truely believe that. From season 1 and season 2, the story plot has been very good, at least to me. I do agree that they have strong focus on the characters, but this time they have overspent time on some, and Neglecting the rest.

The entire Stars team has more development than anyone else in on the series, you can argue that it's because they're the main characters, but so are Lightning and Hayate... And Villains deserves developments as well.

Proto

2007-09-02, 14:23

I would say that lazy and predictable writing are problems regardless of the genre or media. The way they telescoped what would happen at least half a dozen episodes in advance was hardly subtle.

Again, Nanoha has never been a show where the plot was subtle or anything. Sure, it came a surprise the twists we saw during the first season, specially with Fate introduction. But after that it required little imagination to see where everything was going, at least the bigger strokes. StrikerS did nothing but continue that tradition. Is it something bad? Sure, since it just goes to show poor scripwritting and a lazy plot. Is it something tremendously detrimental? Not for me at least, since I never watched Nanoha for its plot since it started.

I don't think we've been watching the same show. You could see very clearly how the plot was dictating how characters would act rather then what their actions being a natural result of what they were experiencing.

I was saying when comparing it to its cousins, those of the shounen and, to a leaser extent, the seinen genre. Out of all the anime genres, those have the most predictable plots in the anime world. Nanoha is higher than the rest of its family, but still she suffers from the family syntoms. I never denied that.

When it comes to the point where you have more people giving reasonable statements as to why the show isn't performing, as to the number of people defending it...

... You know something's wrong.

Well sheer numbers don't demonstrate anything by themselves. It could just be that the series is misunderstood :p

The simplest of example is the Caro/Erio/Lutecia interaction Nightengale mentioned. I've demand it for the longest time, yet it's no where to be found. Nobody can Seriously believe that Caro would feel that way to a complete strange, let alone Lutecia.

And I agree with you. As I said, I never denied that Nanoha has faults, I just said they are being blown out of proportion when considering the scope of the series. And within the scope of the series what you mentioned IS a big fault, since we are talking some illogical character relationship in here. (unless its just a parody about the fan's so called Nanoha school of befriending. Maybe the show is just poking fun at itself?)

The entire Stars team has more development than anyone else in on the series, you can argue that it's because they're the main characters, but so are Lightning and Hayate... And Villains deserves developments as well.

And again, I'll agree that that is another fault the show has. Sure, this cumulative set of faults will make that the show will never be within anyone's Top 10, but still we are putting aside many of the pluses the show has presented. Right, I agree that one of the points I liked the show for was that it accomplished the unusual feat of making the villians human, making them have motives, feelings and the such. We had suffered from a serious lackluster from that in the third season, but in exchange we have received some nice development of certain characters that is parallel to what we saw in the first seasons. (and since I like characters like Teana, her having more attention than others wasn't exactly a flaw in my book). Again, the idea was not bad, but it could have used better directing.

Again, maybe I have not stated my point clearly. My point has been that:

- We are marking flaws the series have, but that are not the focus of the series, and this, while bad, they are not extremely detrimental
- Inside the scope of the series, the third season still has faults, but at least on my opinion the overall balance is positive.
- My opinion, as everyone else's is not absolute, it's just a recollection of my own impressions and what I like. I'm just voicing out my thoughts since, as Chaos2Frozen said, we are underrepresented :)

FlareKnight

2007-09-02, 14:25

Yeah when it comes down to it development got thrown to certain people (Stars squad) and others got left on the floor. Agree that the Lutecia and Erio/Caro interactions now doesn't make a whole lot of sense since they haven't done much with them to make Caro and Erio try so hard to turn her. It's not like the first few seasons where Nanoha fought Fate numerous times or going up against the knights a few times. All we had was one fight and having Lutecia nearby when Erio got smacked out of the sky.

Anyways onto the episode at hand

Again Stars squad does pretty well in things. Get some more background on Subaru/Ginga and their past as children. Really too bad about their mom since the bits we have gotten so see she was certainly a good person.

Teana really owned all in this episode. Pulling some great moves when being surrounded and taking down all but one of the numbers who I'm sure will be taken out soon as well. Great combination of using illusions, shooting, and blade fighting to come out with the win.

A bit of something for Zafira and Shamal taking down a number. Of course he's still in wolf form but really wouldn't have expected him to actually turn into the human form for a beat down. At least he managed to have his moment at the end. Though now that Teana has taken care of the rest doesn't seem much for Vice to do.

Well next week appears to be the Lightning Squads turn. All we can get now I guess is some damn good action to make up for the lacking parts for them. Plus doesn't seem like we're going to get a fight with Signum and Zest. In the end the OP was the most action we got in that regard.

azuma-blade

2007-09-02, 14:50

Fabien

2007-09-02, 14:55

Fabien

2007-09-02, 14:59

You can just think of it as a new paradigm where the objective is to have more material for the show to be more developed/so that the otakus have more to buy= more revenue.

It's pretty dangerous. If the TV series itself is uninteresting, nobody will bother with other materials.

on another matter, maybe we should ask the mods for a thread about our opinion's on Nahoha's overall direction and related topics, since this is quite a recurrent topic in almost all the threads in this sub-forum.

If such a thread is created, will there be enough material left for episode-specific threads to be worth creating? ~_~

Fabien

2007-09-02, 15:04

"slaps vivio to her senses"

Don't. At least, right now, she's not crying, which is a nice change.:p

xizro345

2007-09-02, 15:05

I think most of us expected StrikerS to be as good as the first two seasons. Which doesn't strike me as irrational.

Yet people overlooked the most embarassing plot hole of the first half of the series (the emo-Tea arc)? Seems odd to me.
I've got nothing to complain against Strikers save that episode, I'm not really disappointed so far overall.

Mirificus

2007-09-02, 15:09

Again, Nanoha has never been a show where the plot was subtle or anything. Sure, it came a surprise the twists we saw during the first season, specially with Fate introduction. But after that it required little imagination to see where everything was going, at least the bigger strokes. StrikerS did nothing but continue that tradition. Is it something bad? Sure, since it just goes to show poor scripwritting and a lazy plot. Is it something tremendously detrimental? Not for me at least, since I never watched Nanoha for its plot since it started.
The animation has been inconsistent and the show keeps on resorting to telling rather than showing. If you take away the talking and the plot, what exactly are you left with?

I was saying when comparing it to its cousins, those of the shounen and, to a leaser extent, the seinen genre. Out of all the anime genres, those have the most predictable plots in the anime world. Nanoha is higher than the rest of its family, but still she suffers from the family syntoms. I never denied that.
I wasn't looking at it in regard to genre conventions. I don't even know the typical shounen/seinen/magical girl genre conventions. I look at how Strikers stands on its own and with the rest of the Nanoha series.

And I agree with you. As I said, I never denied that Nanoha has faults, I just said they are being blown out of proportion when considering the scope of the series. And within the scope of the series what you mentioned IS a big fault, since we are talking some illogical character relationship in here. (unless its just a parody about the fan's so called Nanoha school of befriending. Maybe the show is just poking fun at itself?)
That could very well have worked but the tone of Strikers has never really struck me as satirical. For better or worse, it seems to take itself pretty seriously.

Again, maybe I have not stated my point clearly. My point has been that:

- We are marking flaws the series have, but that are not the focus of the series, and this, while bad, they are not extremely detrimental
- Inside the scope of the series, the third season still has faults, but at least on my opinion the overall balance is positive.
- My opinion, as everyone else's is not absolute, it's just a recollection of my own impressions and what I like. I'm just voicing out my thoughts since, as Chaos2Frozen said, we are underrepresented :)
I want to like the show as it has its good points but I can't help but recognize the undeniable decline in quality.

Proto

2007-09-02, 15:35

Yet people overlooked the most embarassing plot hole of the first half of the series (the emo-Tea arc)? Seems odd to me.

Really? Personally it has been my favorite part of the series. Everything that goes in pro of flesheninig out a character is a plus in my book. Then again it goes to show that we all have different tastes :)

It's pretty dangerous. If the TV series itself is uninteresting, nobody will bother with other materials.

The manga standalone's chapters are included in Megami, so most people will see them anyway. As they see that they actually serve as a good complement to the series, people will go for the SS and whatever other material is available. It's all a big confabulation :p

The animation has been inconsistent and the show keeps on resorting to telling rather than showing. If you take away the talking and the plot, what exactly are you left with?

Well, obviously we would still be left with the setting and the characters, and their inner relationships. Since I am tossing the setting as well, we are left with the characters, as I mentioned before. And yeah, I know that even within that there are faults, but I already addressed those previously :p

Avatar_notADV

2007-09-02, 15:36

Let's put it this way - the show's all right for the genre (magical girl-ish), but not as good as the previous seasons, which were good enough that a lot of people who don't have a lot of patience with the genre normally were attracted to it.

The writing's not as good in the new season. The new characters aren't all that compelling, though I do like Subaru and Tea. The development of the villains, which was absolutely beautifully done in A's and pretty damn good in the original season, is lacking almost altogether in Strikers.

It's fair to say that we're setting a high bar for the series - we are, and the first two seasons of Nanoha were friggin' good - but it's also fair to say that Strikers ain't clearing that bar.

But that's not ep 23 commentary. ;p As far as that goes, it's not so bad that I'm not willing to let it play out, and there's still potential for a good ending - which is something that A's did not do well, so it could end up "each has its own strengths" eventually. And the animation's improving greatly with the DVD releases, thank goodness. So yeah, we can pick at it and pick at it, and certainly there's problems, but it's too early to throw up one's hands in despair...

xizro345

2007-09-02, 15:39

Really? Personally it has been my favorite part of the series. Everything that goes in pro of flesheninig out a character is a plus in my book. Then again it goes to show that we all have different tastes :)

I call a wasted opportunity. All that cliffhanger resolved in what I can sum as "Nanoha is always right". Really disappointing.
If people can pass over this I don't see why they can complain about the rest of the series.

Mirificus

2007-09-02, 15:57

My thoughts on episode 23. Fewer flashbacks would have helped with the pacing. The second and third seemed extraneous. It didn't disappoint me but to be honest, I wasn't expecting a whole lot by this point.

-It was nice to see Nanoha acting appropriately this episode. She didn't waste any time with Dieci and knocked her out with one shot and she did take the shot opportunity against Quattro when she thought she had a chance.

-It seems like even changing forms can't prevent Vivio from whining.

-TSAB ground mages make their appearance. Their green uniforms may as well be red.

-I liked the flashback with Ginga, Subaru and Quint. Hopefully this won't be the last we see of Ginga acting normally. It seems she's always liked fighting :)

-The second flashback and third flashbacks seemed excessive and unnecessary.

-"Alright buddy" -it's more fun when they use a native English speaker to mangle the words :)

-This is the first time I've seen Shamal in combat with a serious look on her face. Now she finally matches the A's DVD covers :heh: Concentrating decisive force against a single target = win.

-Teana = awesome

-Subaru vs Ginga seemed kind of anti-climatic with the constant interruptions. Why Subaru would be able to win at that particular point and not earlier or later, I have no idea.

-What is a Hayate?

Skyfall

2007-09-02, 16:00

On the whole, i am going to sat the overall quality of StrikerS is lacking in almost all of the areas. From the very get go it has been plagued with pacing problems. The screentime and coverage characters get is uneven (Caro and Erio are not exactly well developed (though could be worse), despite being a part of the main cast) and the direction and focus of the show is questionable. Doesn't help the show is often wasting time (which could have been put to good use elsewhere) on seemingly unimportant things and their blunt method of storytelling.

They have introduced so many characters they simply don't know what to do with them. As a result we have villains about whom we couldn't care less about (As it is now, the 'bad guys' are far less developed than Wolkenritter were 6 episodes in to A's) and character interactions that make little sense, even though they should have. (Hello Lutecia and Lightning squad).

StrikerS feels like a project that was intended to be of an epic scale, but proved to be beyond the abilities of scriptwriters to pull off in a satisfying manner. What we have as a result is unclear direction, shaky plot and somewhat forced character interactions. Quantity is not better than quality when setting up characters that are supposed to form the core of the story.

StrikerS having manga and sound stages does not help any way either - if i have to resort to other sources in order to get the whole enjoyment/understanding out of the show, it is a huge flaw right then and there. As it is now, the show is absolutely mediocre on its own, and it certainly does not live up to its predecessors. I think calling it one of the biggest letdowns of the season wouldn't be much of a stretch, considering people were looking towards this quite a bit.

Demon Eyes

2007-09-02, 16:05

All those who saw this surprise coming(You know what I'm talking about), please raise your hands.....

I see...No one....

*Grins*

And so, they start falling like crazy!

God damn perfect for a perfect surprise!

Still waiting for the ultimate surprise though!!

But wait, My Fate is still under wraps?!!! What F*****??!!

I love Nanoha!

Estavali

2007-09-02, 16:29

mist2123

2007-09-02, 16:45

Question about nanoha?

how many limiters does she have??

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-02, 17:03

I call a wasted opportunity. All that cliffhanger resolved in what I can sum as "Nanoha is always right". Really disappointing.
If people can pass over this I don't see why they can complain about the rest of the series.

Are you serious? You're comparing 2 episodes against the entire second half of the season?

I agree, I don't like that arc, but only because it took too long. But I tolerate it because it's only 2 episodes and I had hoped that it would be the end of Stars development.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-02, 17:15

@ProtoMan

I see what you mean. You DO accept that StrikerS has many faults, but the only reason why you can still enjoy it is because your expectation of it has been alot lower than the rest of us here...

Maybe because we value different things, but the amount and the depth of those mistakes is more than I (And alot others) can accept.

Favoring only certain main characters? Might as well get rid of the rest! Okay, abit extreme... The point is, they've messed up, and the only reason why you're still okay with it, is because you don't find it as serious... Probably because all you're interested in is Nanoha, Fate, Subaru, Teana...

Well, I like character interaction too, where my Lutecia/Erio/Caro?

P.S - Yeah, numbers are important... Look at the NxF fans :rolleyes:

Algent

2007-09-02, 17:16

Question about nanoha?

how many limiters does she have??

That is a good question, I wonder how many more limiter she have.
Also, her last attack injuried her ? :twitch:
I hope IV will be killed in a horrible way :frustrated:

Tia part his really good, 1vs3 and she already killed 2 :p

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-02, 17:21

All those who saw this surprise coming(You know what I'm talking about), please raise your hands.....

I see...No one....

*Grins*

"The Dark gods see all... "

*Grins*

And so, they start falling like crazy!

God damn perfect for a perfect surprise!

Still waiting for the ultimate surprise though!!

The ultimate surprise would be a little girl dying.

It's the only 'shocking' card up their sleeves now, might as well play it.

But wait, My Fate is still under wraps?!!! What F*****??!!

I love Nanoha!

Yup, these are the NxF fans...

Dream_Traveller

2007-09-02, 17:28

That is a good question, I wonder how many more limiter she have.
Also, her last attack injuried her ? :twitch:
I hope IV will be killed in a horrible way :frustrated:

Tia part his really good, 1vs3 and she already killed 2 :p

Come now, Numbers won't be killed by projectiles of that size. They were knocked out, despite the lifeless look Uendi's face, but I assure you they're not dead.

Don't get me started on my old "Nanoha is not the anime for death" rant again...

A good episode, though, and Teana's part was indeed good, along with Subaru's skirmish...one question remains...

Where in the blue heck is Cinque? And Due for that matter?

Alright, so it's only been three episodes since Due first showed up, but it's been 6 now, maybe 7, for Cinque. What's taking them? Both have to show up some time soon.

Kha

2007-09-02, 17:31

Gosh I see that everyone seems to agree what a letdown this has been; I'm no different. Everything has been discussed to pieces, so once I watch the RAW later I'll be back.

Meanwhile, I smell something familiar...
Some of us have got to have alter egos working at 7arcs.:nod:

In that case, clearly the problem is that we don't have enough moles in that company...:nod: :nod: (:()

Yes! Or some of you are 7Arc sleeper agents! O_O:nod: :nod: :nod: (:D)

Key Board

2007-09-02, 17:39

Cinque is probably still in repairs

or maybe she was recycled

serenade_beta

2007-09-02, 17:43

or maybe she was recycled

That would be a bit...

FlareKnight

2007-09-02, 17:47

Damn straight what happened to the Caro/Erio/Lutecia interactions? What happened to lone island episode....Well it could've happened :heh:. Seemed like there was plenty of chance for that kind've stuff around 11/12. But then they brought in Vivio and things just shifted and dropped the Lightning Squad. Caro got an episode with flashbacks to cover her past and why she was there and eventually Erio got a short flashback and that was about it. WIth some work they could've made the attempt to convert Lutecia actually make sense.

Though it's episode 23 seems we've hit the series overall discussion as well here. Just seems like the Chrono getting married to Amy was the tip of the iceberg on things I wasn't satisfied with here. Not that I dislike Subaru and Teana, but I think they had did hit some issues with StrikerS. In the end one good thing coming from StrikerS though is that it made me go and watch the first two series which wouldn't have happened otherwise.

So next week I guess we're getting Fate cutting loose again. Plus the Erio/Caro battle against mind controlled Lutecia. Hope at least the fights go well since that is one thing to still look forward to.

FlameSparkZ

2007-09-02, 17:49

Zafira sounds and looks surprisingly well for someone previously in a very bad shape (half-dead even). Shamal must really have given him some special treatment :p.

I'm glad I'm not the only who thought of Hayate and Rein I during Vivio's "burst of growth" part. Though I wonder if the Scaglietti family have a hand in deciding adult Vivio's clothes. Kings are supposed to look royal, aren't they? Vivio (or Scaglietti) could take a page from Gilgamesh or Saber when it comes to kingly fashion.

So it was a in-built self-defense ability, hmm? So why didn't this ability kick up during Vivio's abduction? Is Lutecia's loli barrier so haxxed that even the Sei-Ou no Yoroi isn't a match? if so, Nanoha must really regret losing her loli status.

Tiana has proven four things today:

1) Brains and guts are indeed your best friends in a pinch.
2) Two are definitely better than one.
3) Nanoha's lessons are useful afterall.
4) And that tsunderes rule the world :p.

My thoughts:

Dieci: Is she really human?
I guess we can call Nanoha a prodigy (or a Whilte Devil) :heh:

Vivio, looking good, but Quattro is controlling her (in a way...)

How many people fully understood Mach Calibur's speech...I didn't :heh:

So, Vice snipes away some drones, while Shamal and Zafira took out Otto, nicely done :D

In this episode, Teana so ruled! She really turned the tables with one move :D

So Subaru and Ginga are like clones of Quint...how about that...:twitch:

And from the picture Zest threw at Regius, so is Lutecia :twitch:

Looking forward to the next episode :D

Cinque is probably still in repairs.
Haha...or maybe she's going to save Sein from Sister Schach...highly likely.

Either that or Due is going to 'seduce' Schach and then stab her from behind :twitch:

aroduc

2007-09-02, 18:41

The important parts of the episode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieKBp7zYMqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WLaXwjNRQo

Well, minus Vivio.

Caps, etc.
http://blog.seiha.org/?p=312

Demon Eyes

2007-09-02, 18:42

OMG!??!

I believe someone already asked it but...WhTF is Hayate~chwan?!! I can't believe too that I there was an episode without Fate(Even if she did appear in the preview)

This is the only complaint I have so far about StrikerS. An episode of no Hayate and Fate-koi....

Also....(Are we still using spoiler tags?)

Is Nanoha planning something? I mean...what was with those energy ball she kept leaving in her wake? Is she planning on using them for something?

And good question about limiters....

Me thinks she had eight(life gates) LOL!

Mirificus

2007-09-02, 18:50

OMG!??!

I believe someone already asked it but...WhTF is Hayate~chwan?!! I can't believe too that I there was an episode without Fate(Even if she did appear in the preview)
I believe that was me.

...

-What is a Hayate?

Why would you expect her to show up anyways? She's only a main character.

Darco_emp

2007-09-02, 19:32

Meh given the title "Stars Strike" I was guessing low lighting and long arc appearance, but it proofed even more impossible to cover such a large main cast after all. Still Vivio chan make through this and be with Nanoha and Fate mama :heh:

We are out of Eps which makes me wonder of this will carry to Ep 26 and break the traditional pattern....

Burner of Anime

2007-09-02, 19:36

The important parts of the episode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WLaXwjNRQo

The girl ALWAYS aims for the head :heh:

Xellos-_^

2007-09-02, 19:38

Proto

2007-09-02, 19:55

I see what you mean. You DO accept that StrikerS has many faults, but the only reason why you can still enjoy it is because your expectation of it has been alot lower than the rest of us here...

Maybe because we value different things, but the amount and the depth of those mistakes is more than I (And alot others) can accept.

Favoring only certain main characters? Might as well get rid of the rest! Okay, abit extreme... The point is, they've messed up, and the only reason why you're still okay with it, is because you don't find it as serious... Probably because all you're interested in is Nanoha, Fate, Subaru, Teana...

Well, I like character interaction too, where my Lutecia/Erio/Caro?

I guess that's one way of putting it. It may also have to do with it that I always try my best to only see the positive points a show has to offer me, so that I can enjoy it to the fullest. Unless a show is either mindless action (ala Gurren Lagan or Hellsing), Mindless fanservice (like Shuffle, Maburaho or the likes of those) and Midless Comedy (...I still have nightmares related to the first episode of Excel Saga) I will see a show to the end and be left satisfied to a greater or lesser degree. Sure, that causes that most series on my list (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/MyAnime/?user=ProtoBot&categ=3) don't score lower than 7. That may have something to do with me seeing Nanoha third season as something more than your run-of-the-mill sequel, but despite all of that I think that this series is getting more bashed than what it deserves. Sure, it has flaws, it got characters that apport nothing to the series, it got a poor direction, faulty animation, underdeveloped characters, but so what! I still lol whenever I see the protagonists pulling out exaggerated power ups, I still feel for Tea and her dillema, I still liked the TxS combo and the world Nanoha presented leaves plenty of space for fanfics. Call me biased then, but I am not afraid to say I liked Nanoha third season enough to give it a 7... maybe a 7.5 because I like the characters :p

Riddly

2007-09-02, 20:06

I guess that's one way of putting it. It may also have to do with it that I always try my best to only see the positive points a show has to offer me, so that I can enjoy it to the fullest. Unless a show is either mindless action (ala Gurren Lagan or Hellsing), Mindless fanservice (like Shuffle, Maburaho or the likes of those) and Midless Comedy (...I still have nightmares related to the first episode of Excel Saga) I will see a show to the end and be left satisfied to a greater or lesser degree. Sure, that causes that most series on my list (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/MyAnime/?user=ProtoBot&categ=3) don't score lower than 7. That may have something to do with me seeing Nanoha third season as something more than your run-of-the-mill sequel, but despite all of that I think that this series is getting more bashed than what it deserves. Sure, it has flaws, it got characters that apport nothing to the series, it got a poor direction, faulty animation, underdeveloped characters, but so what! I still lol whenever I see the protagonists pulling out exaggerated power ups, I still feel for Tea and her dillema, I still liked the TxS combo and the world Nanoha presented leaves plenty of space for fanfics. Call me biased then, but I am not afraid to say I liked Nanoha third season enough to give it a 7... maybe a 7.5 because I like the characters :p

I agree with that. I'm definitely aware of the flaws this season has, but Proto basically summed up my feelings on it regardless. :)

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-02, 20:09

:eyebrow:

I'm beginning to see a distinct similarity with all the people who could still remain positive about the show...

Guppy

2007-09-02, 20:10

Is Nanoha planning something? I mean...what was with those energy ball she kept leaving in her wake? Is she planning on using them for something?She was shown deliberately scattering the things from her hand, so there must be some purpose behind it. My first thought was that they were for marking or pathfinding purposes, but this is Nanoha, after all: if there isn't an exit close by, she'd just make one.

On the other hand, I can just see Nanoha "refriending" Vivio, and Quattro telling her "You know how I said the ship might stop when you stopped her? Too bad, it doesn't. Hahahahaha!"

Then Nanoha snaps her fingers and half the ship's interior explodes... :D

(Yeah, at this point I'm pretty much watching for the earth-shattering KABOOMs. Sue me. :p)

Riddly

2007-09-02, 20:10

:eyebrow:

I'm beginning to see a distinct similarity with all the people who could still remain positive about the show...

And whatever could that be? :rolleyes:

serenade_beta

2007-09-02, 20:12

Dieci doesn't get to do much... One-hit finish... *sigh*

Quattro- Hah! The preview of this episode last week had a mis-animation. Pity Quattro didn't do much this episode (well, she will lose. That's obvious...)

Otto... Bye-bye, Boku-est female this season. It was fun while it lasted (like 2 minutes)

Uendi and co.-*sigh* Here too... Well, that's one way to defeat three by yourself...

Number 13-Ouch, that's gotta hurt. The question is if she will return back to Ginga or not. (I'd be annoyed if the show goes "happily-ever-after", with Vivio and Ginga alive)

Heh~~ Amazing healing abilities they have, huh? That Vice and Zafira...

If I was on the good guys' side, this episode probably would have been more enjoyable... but I'm not, so this episode (and probably every episode afterwards) caused me some pain and lots of "oh, whatever"s.

One more farewell to the fallen Numbers: Bye-bye! (Though they aren't dead......).

Preview-Not much shown. Schach, small-pupiled Scaglietti, Fate, title...

Raw- Geez, that audio was something...

TAM-Lisa

2007-09-02, 20:18

sue me

dieci got one shot & bound, followed by a "are you..human..?" :P
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5941/vlcsnap10668333on4.png
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6299/vlcsnap10668415pp6.png

I'm glad that she didn't turn into a monster, but I'm little shock when see her become like that.

Wow I missed any caps of Tea's fight because I was too busy chatting with someone about it, but here's Subaru.

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/10/vlcsnap10675762dt8.png
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/6867/vlcsnap10675894xo1.png
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8642/vlcsnap10676443ds0.png
Yes, that is Mach Caliber with excelion-style wings, yes that is Subaru's full drive mode, and yes, it is a complete ripoff. :P
Subaru's exelion-style wings remind me the ones of Nanoha, really alike.

Shamal finally with Zafira to defeat Otto, nothing to worry about that kid.

Deici (No.X) isn't the bad person, she just a doll in T.H.A.T Dr.J.A.I.L :mad: I don't hate all the numbers, but I hate no.IV (who hurts Vivio) and Dr.Jail (who hurts Fate). I can't stand when seeing Fate and Vivio hurt like that. :mad::mad::mad:
That is a good question, I wonder how many more limiter she have.
Also, her last attack injuried her ? :twitch:
I hope IV will be killed in a horrible way :frustrated:

I think it's because Nanoha wanna save Vivio, no matter about the injured she has. Yeah, that's my hope aswell I want no. IV to be killed by Vivio and Nanoha. About that Dr. J.A.I.L being attacked and killed by everyone (Fate, Nanoha, Vivio, Subaru, Teana, Caro, Erio and everyone eles who can fight)

Teana in this episode = awesome, she cans defeat both no.XI and no.XII at the same times. It's surprised me. Her effort increased perhaps she's thinking about Subaru in ep.22.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-02, 20:20

And whatever could that be? :rolleyes:

My mistake, the post is suppose to be-

"With the exception of Protoman, there is a distinct similarity with all the people who could still remain positive about the show..."

And @Protoman

You do realized that that's alot of faults that you have listed?

Had it been a less popular show, most people (Probably even you) wouldn't even bother with it?

If it's one two problems, sure why not? No show is perfect... But how many faults did you listed?

Guppy

2007-09-02, 20:23

Dieci doesn't get to do much... One-hit finish... *sigh*Well, I guess it was her bad luck to share the same specialisation as Nanoha. It'd be hard to have a drawn-out fight between two artillery pieces in a narrow corridor.

"Is she really human?" was classic, though. :)Number 13-Ouch, that's gotta hurt. The question is if she will return back to Ginga or not. (I'd be annoyed if the show goes "happily-ever-after", with Vivio and Ginga alive)I don't see how we can avoid getting Ginga back. After all, if Subaru didn't mind killing her sister then she'd have used her IS straight-out and turned Ginga's insides to paste.

Subaru's Divine Buster looks to me like the finisher - I don't think we have time to drag out Subaru-vs-Ginga into another, more lethal round. Whether Ginga reverts right away or needs some deprogramming first is another matter, but once the TSAB has her back it's just a matter of time.

serenade_beta

2007-09-02, 20:38

Deici (No.X) isn't the bad person, she just a doll in T.H.A.T Dr.J.A.I.L :mad: I don't hate all the numbers, but I hate no.IV (who hurts Vivio) and Dr.Jail (who hurts Fate).

Yeah, Dieci isn't a bad person, shown with her thoughts these episodes. But she obeys her "father" and "older sisters", so... Not good influence, they are...

IV and Jail are awesome. They just lacked appearance time recently. It's amazing how enjoyable it is to see "truely evil" people act when the show they appear in previously had "misunderstood" villains.

If IV dies (people seem to hope for this), she won't get another chance next season (if there is one). Well, Sentokijin are sturdy, so no worry.

I don't see how we can avoid getting Ginga back. After all, if Subaru didn't mind killing her sister then she'd have used her IS straight-out and turned Ginga's insides to paste.

Subaru's Divine Buster looks to me like the finisher - I don't think we have time to drag out Subaru-vs-Ginga into another, more lethal round. Whether Ginga reverts right away or needs some deprogramming first is another matter, but once the TSAB has her back it's just a matter of time.

*sigh* Yeah, that's true. Well, unless Jail installed some sort of device that prevents further modifications or destroys the host if tampered with.

Demon Eyes

2007-09-02, 20:42

So vivo is now another Rival, Fate has to worried about :D

Damn you!!!

I. CAN'T. UNSEE. IT.!

:D

Proto

2007-09-02, 20:43

Had it been a less popular show, most people (Probably even you) wouldn't even bother with it?

Probably not now, or even in the near future since normally the premise of a Magical Girl Show doesn't appeal to me easily (CCS being one of the sole exceptions) but since I have a likeness for seeing obscure old shows that receive some good, albeit few reviews, I'd probably be seeing it in a 7 or 8 years time... so would'nt be hearing from me till then probably. Then again I started watching Nanoha back when it was a run-of-the mill Magical Girl show just because my sis recommended it to me so who knows?

If it's one two problems, sure why not? No show is perfect... But how many faults did you listed?

Hence why I said it would never make it to my (or anyone's for that matter) Top 10 list.Heck, even my all time favorites like Aria or Haibane Renmei got its share of faults. But as long as they are not faults that go against the very essence of the show (something that Trigun suffered from, for example.) I can make a compromise and overlook them.

Nanoha is by no means a perfect, not even something near to excellent. However, most of the "faults" are almost a byproduct of our own overhyping, and the high bar that its predecessors set up. Sure, as the successor of such good series as the 1st and 2nd seasons our own expectations were very high... but they were just that. Our own expectations. The producers failed to give us a show that was on par with previous seasons, but still they gave us a show that is still above its other cousins, and the show still had many of the elements I liked the previous seasons for, so, like you say, I could still enjoy it despite its gigantic list of flaws.

I'm not trying to tell everyone to just accept my standards. I'm just reminding you that one of the main reasons anime et. al. exist is for our own enjoyment. It saddens me a little that people aren't capable of doing that and missing all the good points Nanoha Strikers has to offer.

That or I am optimistic to the point of it being a disease

mist2123

2007-09-02, 20:56

I think "its in the eyes of the beholder" if u think this series is good/ bad
personally i think this season is perfect

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 21:04

Well, if you ask me, I think it's enjoyable. In fact, most shows I watch are enjoyable. Hell, even Shining Tears x Wind which from a technical standpoint, was a bunch of crap, entertained me because it was obviously run-in-cheek. However, just because they entertain me and make it worth my 20 minutes weekly doesn't make it free from criticism.

It's a could-be-better argument. Every anime has that argument, but the weakness is more apparent here that even from their own set standards from the get-go, (( hints of darker character development for Hayate, plot details, etc )), it is honestly lacking on most fronts. It's like hinting unspoken promises and wasting time on 'hints' but never developing those beyond just 'hints.'

And there was the general rule of every written story, in terms of balanced characterization that fits the necessary timing... which is very weak on the opposition side, which is half the reason drama occurs, and loss of drama is loss of intensity in storytelling. If it was not for Quattro and Jail being awesome and entertaining as villains, I would have a hard time feeling for them.

Even if I ignore preseason hype, it still feels a little of a let-down, since screen-time were seemingly wasted for something that was only paper thin in depth, or nothing meaningful at all.

Guppy

2007-09-02, 21:08

IV and Jail are awesome. They just lacked appearance time recently. It's amazing how enjoyable it is to see "truely evil" people act when the show they appear in previously had "misunderstood" villains.I'm not a fan of "truly evil" antagonists - they often make for lazy storytelling - but it's refreshing when characters want what they want, and don't have any moral pretensions about it.

*sigh* Yeah, that's true. Well, unless Jail installed some sort of device that prevents further modifications or destroys the host if tampered with.Maybe, but I don't see why he'd waste the time on it. This is an all-or-nothing play for him; there is no "afterwards" to worry about if he's defeated. Destroying Ginga's life after she's exhausted her usefulness wouldn't really get him anywhere.

Besides, if he cared that much about his Numbers' loyalty you'd think he'd have done a better job on his existing group. Heck, Nanoha could probably have talked Dieci around in this episode already, if she'd been able to spare a few minutes.

Nvis

2007-09-02, 21:40

What if Nanoha really is......

not human?

mist2123

2007-09-02, 21:45

What if Nanoha really is......

not human?

its simple she the white devil of hell:heh: if she isnt that then
she's probably the pink panther:)

Nightengale

2007-09-02, 21:51

What if Nanoha really is......

not human?

Wouldn't surprise me.

One of my early season off-hand possible predictions was that, Nanoha's injuries 8 years ago... was something she could not had ever recovered from ever, and that she would really die in time. However, she was saved and made possible to return to her former self with little lingering effects via the Artificial Mage technology.

This was back when I thought they would portray the lines of unethical technology of cyborgs, Project F, Artificial Mage and all that in a more gray perspective...but alas, it looks like they'll stay black.

serenade_beta

2007-09-02, 21:59

Maybe, but I don't see why he'd waste the time on it. This is an all-or-nothing play for him; there is no "afterwards" to worry about if he's defeated. Destroying Ginga's life after she's exhausted her usefulness wouldn't really get him anywhere.

Besides, if he cared that much about his Numbers' loyalty you'd think he'd have done a better job on his existing group. Heck, Nanoha could probably have talked Dieci around in this episode already, if she'd been able to spare a few minutes.

Well, it's not known how much he tampered with the first twelve numbers, since they have more personality than Number 13.

As for why he would care to install a device, he probably doesn't want to bother. But he never showed a desperation to do "all-or-nothing". He seemed confident that he would win (not knowing the fate of villains in Nanoha series). Also, he has shown to be a person who likes experimenting and slightly sadistic in that way, so he could just have attached a device just for the sake of attaching one.

Though I'd say, the chances are 10% he did and 90% he didn't. If this wasn't a show where death counts stay low and good guys always win, the percentage would be switched.

Adding one more thought of this episode:

Vivio needs to stop crying mama... really... Even after her growth spurt...

Guppy

2007-09-02, 22:20

As for why he would care to install a device, he probably doesn't want to bother. But he never showed a desperation to do "all-or-nothing". He seemed confident that he would win (not knowing the fate of villains in Nanoha series). Also, he has shown to be a person who likes experimenting and slightly sadistic in that way, so he could just have attached a device just for the sake of attaching one.

Though I'd say, the chances are 10% he did and 90% he didn't. If this wasn't a show where death counts stay low and good guys always win, the percentage would be switched.I still can't see it. Even if this show was a killfest it would be Subaru who killed Ginga, not a self-destruct device. I agree with you that Jail is confident, not desperate, but he's still staking everything on this grand plan of his. This is the decisive battle; there's no point wasting effort on things that won't help him now.

And yes, he might be a bit of a mad scientist, but if he had extra time for experimentation, he really ought to have spent it improving Ginga's (or the other Numbers's) combat capabilities, or trying to repair #5 more quickly. Anything else is just a meaningless distraction.Vivio needs to stop crying mama... really... Even after her growth spurt...I dunno. I mean, she's barely shown us any other side to her personality. It would just be weird if she stopped doing it now.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-02, 22:34

I dunno. I mean, she's barely shown us any other side to her personality. It would just be weird if she stopped doing it now.

Yeah but... It's been 2 whole hours :eyespin: ! (Probably even more)

serenade_beta

2007-09-02, 22:48

I still can't see it. Even if this show was a killfest it would be Subaru who killed Ginga, not a self-destruct device. I agree with you that Jail is confident, not desperate, but he's still staking everything on this grand plan of his. This is the decisive battle; there's no point wasting effort on things that won't help him now.

And yes, he might be a bit of a mad scientist, but if he had extra time for experimentation, he really ought to have spent it improving Ginga's (or the other Numbers's) combat capabilities, or trying to repair #5 more quickly. Anything else is just a meaningless distraction.

Reply to the first part:
I guess I'll leave it at that. I basically agree, after all.

Second part:
The thing is, if he did that, the bad guys would win. That's not allowed...
The good guys already have a hard time. If the bad guys get stronger, the good guys would lose.
For Cinque, I really don't know why she hasn't made another appearance in the show. Jail's a genius. It shouldn't take that long. Of course, it would be harder to finish up this show with "good guys win" if Cinque made another appearance, considering how her daggers and IS are powerful enough to greatly damage Subaru's body.

Guppy

2007-09-02, 23:19

The thing is, if he did that, the bad guys would win. That's not allowed...
The good guys already have a hard time. If the bad guys get stronger, the good guys would lose.Yeah, that's about the most annoying thing about the show. The gap between the Aces and Forwards is too great, meaning any enemy capable of going toe-to-toe with N/F/H would cream our rookies... so the Aces keep getting nerfed or held back so we can have weaker enemies without it being a total walkover. Trouble is, the end result is that the good guys wind up looking like incompetent morons who can't figure out how to effectively employ their strongest team members.

I guess that's why I like Teana. She's not very powerful (and pays the price when she tries to brute-force it like the Big Three or even Subaru can), so she has to finesse her way through situations. Her Silhouette skill is just insanely useful, especially in a group battle where she doesn't have to pay as much attention to self-protection.

(Incidentally, I think we're really seeing the disadvantages inherent in the Numbers' overspecialisation. Nanoha could pull off that backshot trick nicely at age 9, and it never bought her much more than a temporary distraction against Fate or Vita, whereas Teana got a double KO. It'll be an even worse indictment if Nove now surrenders just because Teana has the drop on her.)

Meophist

2007-09-02, 23:52

Well… I'm still enjoying this show, believe it or not.

I enjoy looking at the technical aspects of the fights, I like looking at the characters combat and battle style. I also like the characters themselves, particularly as how the Numbers have been developed.

What I don't like, is that it's episode 23 and I still don't know what Erio and Caro are capable of in battle.

Adr 00

2007-09-03, 00:18

okay guys we have more or less relised that strikers writing is bad,admit it,rant and move on already.

Nvis

2007-09-03, 00:26

serenade_beta

2007-09-03, 00:29

It'll be an even worse indictment if Nove now surrenders just because Teana has the drop on her.)

I can't see Nove surrendering with her personality. But then again... the writing

okay guys we have more or less relised that strikers writing is bad,admit it,rant and move on already.

We admit it, are ranting, but some of us haven't moved on. It's hard too, when we watched an episode just today (recently), and there are signs of it.

Guppy

2007-09-03, 00:39

After seeing Ginga's drill(from the last episode + this episode), I think her chances of returning are low. Her left arm/hand must be completely robotic now, if she can spin her hand like that without the glove.I can't see it mattering that much. Both the sisters' core structure is robotic anyway, as we've seen with Subaru, and the outer coatings can certainly be regenerated - Subaru recovered very quickly from having a large chunk of her arm go missing, and the level of cloning technology present in the Nanohaverse seems to be pretty high anyway.

The only way I can see Ginga not coming back is if Subaru was forced to use her IS to kill her sister in combat. That last Divine Buster seems to have negated the possibility, and I really doubt Ginga will recover quickly enough to be KIA in the finale - the only Forwards who would be useful in such a high-powered event anyway would probably be Caro (with Voltaire) and maybe Subaru (for her barrier-breaking IS).

I can't see Nove surrendering with her personality. But then again... the writingI know what you mean. On the other hand, though, attacking Teana now carries a definite risk (assuming Teana doesn't just blast Nove away immediately) that her unconscious sisters will end up as collateral damage in the melee, and I can't see Nove abandoning them to escape either.

Nvis

2007-09-03, 00:59

I can't see it mattering that much. Both the sisters' core structure is robotic anyway, as we've seen with Subaru, and the outer coatings can certainly be regenerated - Subaru recovered very quickly from having a large chunk of her arm go missing, and the level of cloning technology present in the Nanohaverse seems to be pretty high anyway.

Then how come Subaru can' t do that move?

Guppy

2007-09-03, 01:06

Then how come Subaru can' t do that move?Firstly, I don't know if Ginga could always do that, or whether she's had some kind of "upgrade" while in enemy hands. It could well be that she's always had that ability and Subaru didn't - they don't have exactly the same skills or magics, after all (and Subaru probably wouldn't need a drill in normal combat, considering the power of her IS). Yes, spinning one's hand is rather incompatible with having unbroken skin on one's wrist, but the self-repair systems would take care of that after the battle.

However, even if she has had a total hand replacement, I don't think it's an unrecoverable situation. Her core structure was always robotic anyway, and with the Nakajima sisters' regenerative abilities I doubt regrowing the organic coating on Ginga's hand would be a major problem even if it had been removed.

Jabawock

2007-09-03, 01:57

About Nanoha's limiter in this episode,
I think she temporary release limiter for "Blaster Mode" to power up Excellion Buster. From aers's spoiler, we will see full release in Ep. 25.

Guppy

2007-09-03, 02:12

About Nanoha's limiter in this episode,
I think she temporary release limiter for "Blaster Mode" to power up Excellion Buster. From aers's spoiler, we will see full release in Ep. 25.Blaster Mode has multiple limiter levels. Nanoha released the first level to blow away Dieci. She then told Raising Heart to maintain Blaster Level 1 as she flew off towards Vivio.

When Vivio transformed and started to go berserk, Raising Heart activated "WAS Full Drive" and Nanoha called for limiter level 2 to be released.

Fabien

2007-09-03, 04:35

[...]Sure, that causes that most series on my list don't score lower than 7. [...] I liked Nanoha third season enough to give it a 7 [...]

So basically, you give to StrikerS the worst score you can give to a series?

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-03, 05:23

So basically, you give to StrikerS the worst score you can give to a series?

The worst of his 'best' :heh:

Tormenk

2007-09-03, 08:59

It's like hinting unspoken promises and wasting time on 'hints' but never developing those beyond just 'hints.'

Which the people responsible for the show seems to favour regarding a certain issue in the show, although that was never a promise in the first place.

I agree with Meophist as well, this late in the show and we still got no certain idea what the Lightning Forwards are truly capable of, and in the premise of the showdown in ep 25, Lightning's encounter with Lutecia seems doomed to suffer the same fate as their character development. Hell, it might be even shorter since Fate is still trapped in the Doctor's lab and that might be also shortened to set up the duel between Nanoha and Vivio.

Anyone want to bet on another flashback in the next episode? Since that has been the trend among the last few episodes. :rolleyes:

Proto

2007-09-03, 09:24

So basically, you give to StrikerS the worst score you can give to a series?

Well yeah, I failed to add in that if a series is so bad that I suffer from some kind of post-viewing trauma or something akin I won't even bother to go past episode 2, leave alone rating it. So if I rate a series it means it was good enough for me not having to pay a psychiatran after viewing it (a big plus if you ask me)and it doesn't belong to my 3 DO NOT WANT (mindless action/fanservice/comedy or some weird combination of those 3). Moreover, if it has something above 6, it means I didn't have to push myself to view it, or that I didn't watch it out of some kind of masochist impulse. Since Nanoha S didn't suffer from any of those it deserves a 7.5.

On another topic, the complaining is almost starting to amuse me. We finally have some screentime for out dear botched Lightning squad characters and we have people complaining before the actual event. Pre-emptive complaining! Now I only need to see people complaining about a hypothetical storyline of the not-yet-announced fourth season. :)

Other than that, I think I will let the topic there after this post. I'm doing my best to rephrase my arguments so it doesn't become painfuly obvious that I have been repeating myself for 5 posts now, but I think I am reaching my limit :p

Kha

2007-09-03, 09:41

Well yeah, I failed to add in that if a series is so bad that I suffer from some kind of post-viewing trauma or something akin I won't even bother to go past episode 2, leave alone rating it. So if I rate a series it means it was good enough for me not having to pay a psychiatran after viewing it (a big plus if you ask me)and it doesn't belong to my 3 DO NOT WANT (mindless action/fanservice/comedy or some weird combination of those 3). Moreover, if it has something above 6, it means I didn't have to push myself to view it, or that I didn't watch it out of some kind of masochist impulse. Since Nanoha S didn't suffer from any of those it deserves a 7.5.

On another topic, the complaining is almost starting to amuse me. We finally have some screentime for out dear botched Lightning squad characters and we have people complaining before the actual event. Pre-emptive complaining! Now I only need to see people complaining about a hypothetical storyline of the not-yet-announced fourth season. :)

Other than that, I think I will let the topic there after this post. I'm doing my best to rephrase my arguments to the best of my capabilities so it doesn't become painfuly obvious that I have been repeating myself for 5 posts now, but I think I am reaching my limit :pIt's already happened in the OC thread. But we're not complaining; w're using whatever's gonna be left hanging open to make an S4. :D

arkhangelsk

2007-09-03, 09:53

Teana in this episode = awesome, she cans defeat both no.XI and no.XII at the same times. It's surprised me. Her effort increased perhaps she's thinking about Subaru in ep.22.

Agreed. Now, 7Arcs, now that we know that you can depict enemies using tactics and now you've got Teana using her brain as well. Why didn't you do that for everyone else?

Though Mach Caliber was very cool too. This is the first Intelligent Device I've seen that took over control when her master loses her will! And not just some Auto Guard! I was like Awww!

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-03, 10:28

On another topic, the complaining is almost starting to amuse me. We finally have some screentime for out dear botched Lightning squad characters and we have people complaining before the actual event. Pre-emptive complaining! Now I only need to see people complaining about a hypothetical storyline of the not-yet-announced fourth season. :)

As expected, you aren't attached to Lightning as much as the rest of us so you would probably have less of a distaste to their shafting.

And you're making it sound as if the complains and negative remakes are uncalled for :rolleyes: Half a season before? Maybe, but now? When things are at the end? And Teana alone have more development than the whole team minus Fate add up together?

I say we have every damn reason to be Cynical with the up-coming episode.

Lets face it, the majority of the people still feeling positive about the show are the NxF-fans, who are probably the ones that messed it up in the first place with their demands.

Fabien

2007-09-03, 10:37

Now I only need to see people complaining about a hypothetical storyline of the not-yet-announced fourth season. :)

BTW, isn't it possible that the people at Seven Arcs are already fed up with the nanohaverse, and decided to sink StrikerS in order not to have to make a 4th season?

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-03, 10:40

BTW, isn't it possible that the people at Seven Arcs are already fed up with the nanohaverse, and decided to sink StrikerS in order not to have to make a 4th season?

Unless this is already the most 'Epic' scenario they could think of...

And not to mention the tons of holes to fill...

...Then again, they did mess up alot this season.

Key Board

2007-09-03, 10:42

Oh c'mon now. Don't pigeon hole people. I hate ship wars.

I'm just someone who doesn't expect much from team lightning. Call it gut instinct if you may, but years of watching shounen helps you identify sub main characters.

I watched the show for Hayate and her knights and more SRW references. I DIDN'T get everything I wanted obviously, but Subaru, Ginga and Teana were more than enough to make me happy. Nanoha being an actual character this time, helps too.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-03, 10:54

Oh c'mon now. Don't pigeon hole people. I hate ship wars.

:eyebrow:

It is what it is. I'm not going to bother being politically correct about it.

I'm just someone who doesn't expect much from team lightning. Call it gut instinct if you may, but years of watching shounen helps you identify sub main characters.

Tell me, do you even like the characters in Lightning?

I watched the show for Hayate and her knights and more SRW references. I DIDN'T get everything I wanted obviously, but Subaru, Ginga and Teana were more than enough to make me happy. Nanoha being an actual character this time, helps too.

That's your taste, but I don't that it's too unreasonable for other characters to be officially labelled as main characters to receive some decent treatment fitting of main character.

Being so-called 'sub-main characters' is an excuse to get lazy. They are called main characters way before the start of the show. Why not just make them 'side' if they're not going to get main character treatment...

arkhangelsk

2007-09-03, 11:12

BTW, isn't it possible that the people at Seven Arcs are already fed up with the nanohaverse, and decided to sink StrikerS in order not to have to make a 4th season?

Why would they do that? If the sink it like this, they can't reverse. If they make it succeed, they can go on.

But now that I just realized that 7Arcs actually does know how to depict inexperience (without it looking like total incompetence) and how to have it subtly cost people, maybe you have a point. Just that I don't know what they stand to gain if you are right...

Proto

2007-09-03, 11:20

And you're making it sound as if the complains and negative remakes are uncalled for Half a season before? Maybe, but now? When things are at the end? And Teana alone have more development than the whole team minus Fate add up together?

Oh, no. I am not contesting your right to complain. It is something we are all entitled to do, and you have every right to voice your opinion and to feel cynical about the next episode.

... however I have been seeing the same attitude for 10 episodes now so I think I have to right to feel cynical myself as well :p (hence why I recommended creating a thread dedicated to people bashing Nanoha direction... otherwise I think I am not wrong when I say this trend will continue up to the last episode thread.)

Being so-called 'sub-main characters' is an excuse to get lazy. They are called main characters way before the start of the show. Why not just make them 'side' if they're not going to get main character treatment...

Hmm.. just to make sure, is your qualm with Strikers the fact that they were labeled as main characters before the series started and by the end they didn't get proper treatment, or the fact that Lighting didn't get proper screentime by itself? Because if say, a company licensed Nanoha Striker's and changed the description to something like

"Watch Nanoha, her new adventures, her no-longer-loli self and how he became a teacher. Behold the intriging story of her students!! btw Fate got some as well but those are just cannon fodder"

would you be any happier? :p

Key Board

2007-09-03, 11:20

It is what it is. I'm not going to bother being politically correct about it.

I have a problem with scapegoating

Tell me, do you even like the characters in Lightning?

I'm not sure if this the answer you are looking for, but I like Erio and Strada. I think Caro is an optional character and the dynamics would work MUCH better if it was just between Erio and Lutecia.

That's your taste, but I don't that it's too unreasonable for other characters to be officially labeled as main characters to receive some decent treatment fitting of main characters.

The only ones who have been labeled as main characters are Nanoha and Subaru, actually.

Being so-called 'sub-main characters' is an excuse to get lazy. They are called main characters way before the start of the show. Why not just make them 'side' if they're not going to get main character treatment...

You can't make everyone equal as characters. Storytelling does not work that, way. There are a sense of hierarchy. If labels matter, would you feel less hurt if they explicitly labeled Caro and Erio as as say.. a tier 2.5 character with tier 1 being highest priority, before the airing of the show?

Major1138

2007-09-03, 11:33

BTW, isn't it possible that the people at Seven Arcs are already fed up with the nanohaverse, and decided to sink StrikerS in order not to have to make a 4th season?

If they didn't want to make another season, they don't need to purposely tank their 3rd season first. They could just decide not to make a 4th season. Now a bad 3rd season makes it less likely for a 4th to happen, but I'm pretty sure the folks at Seven Arcs don't want to be known for making bad shows, so it's not really in their interest to sink anything.

Keroko

2007-09-03, 11:44

I'm not sure if this the answer you are looking for, but I like Erio and Strada. I think Caro is an optional character and the dynamics would work MUCH better if it was just between Erio and Lutecia.

Wait wait wait, Caro is optional? :twitch: Who was the one that noticed Lutecia in the first place? Caro. Who was the one that went after her whenever she apeared? Caro.

Erio was just along for the ride, really. Even now, who is the one convincing Lutecia? Caro.

You can't make everyone equal as characters. Storytelling does not work that, way. There are a sense of hierarchy. Would you feel less hurt if they explicitly labeled Caro and Erio as as say.. a tier 2.5 character with tier 1 being highest priority, before the airing of the show?

I almost stopped at "You can't make everyone equal as characters. Storytelling does not work that way"

Know why? Because that is nonsense, A's proves that you can flesh out multiple characters and make them equal.

Meophist

2007-09-03, 12:48

I don't mind characters being unequal in development. What I do mind is that I know more about most of the Number's combat capabilities than I do of Erio's and Caro's at this point. Heck, I think Vice got more development than those two.

Fabien

2007-09-03, 12:52

Unless this is already the most 'Epic' scenario they could think of...

They proved, with two good seasons, that they could make a decent anime.

Seeing the second half of this third season, something very bad definitely happened at Seven Arcs.

If they didn't want to make another season, they don't need to purposely tank their 3rd season first. They could just decide not to make a 4th season.

Internal dissension?

But I suppose the most simple explanation is the most likely one: they got lazy, and seeing the success of the first two seasons, they didn't bother to do more than the barest minimum for the third season.

FlareKnight

2007-09-03, 15:41

Yeah don't think complaining before the start of the episode is too big a deal.Using the rest of the series to this point I doubt anyone with solid expectations for Lightning is going to be satisfied. Really to save the Lightning group up to this point would require one amazing episode. In the end yeah if you just liked the Stars group then the season wasn't half bad at all or at least the NxF stuff should keep some happy.

Maybe the meaning of Caro as optional meant that without her Erio would've played a bigger part in the conversion of Lutecia? Really no reason to dump Caro as some had beliefs that the Caro/Erio/Lutecia grouping could've been done fine. Really with the job done in the first season and A's seems likely if they had tried they could've pulled it off. Could've just removed all of those three characters at the start without huge hit on the plot. Wonder if they were considering that and just dumped them to the side for some reason.

Just too bad. Entirely possible that the lazy reason is pretty accurate. Figure you have such successful first two seasons. Decide to up the episode count to 26 dump in a ton of new characters and it'll work out fine.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-03, 18:31

Hmm.. just to make sure, is your qualm with Strikers the fact that they were labeled as main characters before the series started and by the end they didn't get proper treatment, or the fact that Lighting didn't get proper screentime by itself? Because if say, a company licensed Nanoha Striker's and changed the description to something like

would you be any happier? :p

Oh I have bigger beefs with StrikerS than that, but the shafting of Lightning is the one which I can reasonably complain about. And the answer to your question is, both.

I have a problem with scapegoating

It is what it is.

The only ones who have been labeled as main characters are Nanoha and Subaru, actually.

They are the main focus, that I'll give them that. But they are not the absolute characters that requires every bit of the camera's attention. Because the other main characters (if they weren't labelled as main characters, you wouldn't be on the same status, refer to ops, eds and even character listing... As simple s it sounds, that all you need to see.) have just as interesting of a story as the two of them does.

You can't make everyone equal as characters. Storytelling does not work that, way. There are a sense of hierarchy. If labels matter, would you feel less hurt if they explicitly labeled Caro and Erio as as say.. a tier 2.5 character with tier 1 being highest priority, before the airing of the show?

Equal in importance? Equal in focus? Maybe maybe... But I don't think it's impossible to give them reasonable treatments.

They take 2-3 episodes to flesh out Teana and Subaru's character... They give Erio and Caro a total of 3 mins of flashback which never got added upon.

Rava

2007-09-03, 19:33

Have any of the writers changed from Nanoha A's to StrikerS? It HAS been a couple of years now...

Major1138

2007-09-03, 19:39

They proved, with two good seasons, that they could make a decent anime.

Seeing the second half of this third season, something very bad definitely happened at Seven Arcs.

Internal dissension?

But I suppose the most simple explanation is the most likely one: they got lazy, and seeing the success of the first two seasons, they didn't bother to do more than the barest minimum for the third season.

To be honest, I think it's just a case where their reach exceeded their grasp - I'm not as familiar with the source material as others here, but it just seems to me like they felt like they needed to top their previous efforts and so came up with all kinds of elaborate ideas, and found that perhaps they didn't have the time required (in terms of episode count) to due them all justice. It happens all the time in all kinds of serialized entertainment.

Proto

2007-09-03, 20:00

Oh I have bigger beefs with StrikerS than that, but the shafting of Lightning is the one which I can reasonably complain about. And the answer to your question is, both.

At this point I think it would be wise to agree to disagree. After all we more or less agree in the only objective matter at hand: the existance of numerous flaws. We only disagree on our appreciation of them. In any case I think it would be wise to withhold final judment until the end of the series. It would not be the first time that an otherwise run-of-the-mill series was saved by a good ending.

arkhangelsk

2007-09-03, 20:04

Nightengale

2007-09-03, 20:25

To be honest, I think it's just a case where their reach exceeded their grasp - I'm not as familiar with the source material as others here, but it just seems to me like they felt like they needed to top their previous efforts and so came up with all kinds of elaborate ideas, and found that perhaps they didn't have the time required (in terms of episode count) to due them all justice. It happens all the time in all kinds of serialized entertainment.

Actually, it felt more like they want to top A's and YET still leave a S4 open. Trying to tie in all that apparently interesting subplots, and still constrain and walk that fine line...

I mean, with the whole AMF/Numbers thing, it really feels that they're trying to downplay the main characters as much as they can, while making it believable for a bunch of rookies to show their game, rather than not holding back, and throwing their best cards. Even Zest's S+ himself gets plagued by incompatibility, a dying body that is weakening (( Unison cannot use flames anymore )), and all that.

Nvis

2007-09-03, 22:02

Teana is just damn great this episode.

Headshots = win

serenade_beta

2007-09-03, 23:04

How did those two find Otto? Doesn't she have her "stealth jacket"?

arkhangelsk

2007-09-03, 23:16

It is hard to be stealthy while yakking over the radio and emitting energy for barriers.

Nightengale

2007-09-03, 23:47

How did those two find Otto? Doesn't she have her "stealth jacket"?

Apparently nothing escapes Klarwind's sensors. :rolleyes:

arkhangelsk

2007-09-04, 00:10

Let's not be too sarcastic - it was rather realistic Otto got caught. She's glowing like a star with all the stuff she's emitting.

Nightengale

2007-09-04, 00:25

Let's not be too sarcastic - it was rather realistic Otto got caught. She's glowing like a star with all the stuff she's emitting.

But that was what Shamal said! :p

True though. Otto's visible in plain view, even when it's not necessary. Sure, maybe Otto can't be detected by radar with that Stealth Jacket, but it should be more effective to stay hidden from sight, especially since Otto's so concentrated on tasking a well-placed sniper could easily beat Otto.

Key Board

2007-09-04, 04:07

They are the main focus, that I'll give them that. But they are not the absolute characters that requires every bit of the camera's attention. Because the other main characters (if they weren't labelled as main characters, you wouldn't be on the same status, refer to ops, eds and even character listing... As simple s it sounds, that all you need to see.) have just as interesting of a story as the two of them does.

There are two possible answers

1. Erio and Caro are NEW characters. New characters get much attention in magazines and such. That however, does not make them main characters. I said before only Nanoha and Subaru was ever declared as main characters.

2. If you believe my theory, they weren't meant to be in this season. (and was only included to appease shouta loli fans, who would be upset otherwise) Har har har, now it's me who is doing the labeling.

Seriously, though. There probably isn't any plot to work with because the material does not even exist yet, or it exist but is only partially done. Better luck next season, Erio.

Wait wait wait, Caro is optional? :twitch: Who was the one that noticed Lutecia in the first place? Caro. Who was the one that went after her whenever she apeared? Caro.

Erio was just along for the ride, really. Even now, who is the one convincing Lutecia? Caro.

That's because Erio's designated rival is Garyuu. An in shounen, who your rival steers how you interact as a character.

Now if you take away Caro and take away Garyuu you could have another repeat of Nanoha (why are you fighting?) vs Fate (for my mom, silly), and I think it would have flown much better.

But on the other hand I guess you could remove Erio and it would also make the dynamics and rivalry flow better. less can be more.

I almost stopped at "You can't make everyone equal as characters. Storytelling does not work that way"

Know why? Because that is nonsense, A's proves that you can flesh out multiple characters and make them equal.

I disagree. Yuno was there so they could retire him as a mage. Chrono is painfully support character. Arf? She's just there to be Fate's familiar and fight Zafira. No development. Mariel? You didn't even know her name until StrikerS.

Even Nanoha was a support character in A's, IMO

..

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-04, 05:02

seen only the important parts of this episode and that was mainly about Teana an Subaru's battle...anyways the title was "Stars Strike", so it was going to be about the Stars team winning...so yea.:heh:
-First off, Subaru vs. Ginga...that was a nicely done battle and the animation seems to have gotten better than the previous episode. Mach Calibur taking over a half conscious Subaru...now that was surprising. It made me think that Mach Calibur may have traits similar to Raging Heart and about having the ambition to win all the time.:heh: Um, couldn't really understand Mach Calibur's speech to Subaru, although it made her fight to her full potential against Ginga...that was a pretty cool fight and to finish it off, Subaru did her famous Divine Buster attack to Ginga...hopefully she's knocked out for good so they can get her to snap out of her brainwash mode. Is it just me, or did Subaru copy alot of Nanoha's magic abilities??...first it was the Divine buster, now its the excellion wings on her roller skates.
-Teana's battle was probably the best highlight in this episode, despite Subaru's battle against her own sister. Teana was considered the most "normal" type of character in StrikerS...well to me...but she really did out did herself in coming up with that tactic that she pulled off against those numbers. I really liked how all of the sequence of attacks were all executed very well...and those shots that she fired, those were pretty harsh on the heads of those Numbers, but it knocked them out completely though.:heh: (Teana has a thing for shooting heads off of her opponents:heh:) But she came out victorious though and surprised Nove after what had happened. GO TEANA!
-I've read through some posts and Zafira and Shamal both took out Otto and thats how the barrier around Teana's battle area was shattered...how did they both took out Otto? was it even shown?
-Did Chrono even arrive yet?...I'm guessing that Pray will be played when he arrives there.

good episode 8/10

sue me

dieci got one shot & bound, followed by a "are you..human..?" :P
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5941/vlcsnap10668333on4.png
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6299/vlcsnap10668415pp6.png

BTW, this caught my eye while reading through this thread, but this is what happens to Vivio??
...I'd say thats pretty cool, she did a 10 year time skip (I'm guessing that she's 10 years older than her younger self, since StrikerS is 10 years after A's..:heh:) thanks to Quattro and the battle between her and Nanoha looks pretty promising. and I guess predictions of Vivio having her own barrier jacket came true after all. Although she looks older, I've read that she can't stop saying "mama" yet??...and that she still whines like her younger self??....weird:twitch:...but I guess its because Quattro is controlling her:heh:...but Quattro sounds like she's becoming a real pain since she's doing a lot of mind control to innocent people on her own side...so I'm guessing she won't live after Nanoha saves Vivio. And since Vivio is at this form, she should stay like this when Nanoha saves her...she looks better that way...although the thought of acting like a 5 year old and having a body thats a teenager...that has to change if Vivio keeps that body.:heh:

Key Board

2007-09-04, 05:06

Otto was binded and encased.

Nanoha and Vivio.. well, right now I'm wondering which of them is going to survive...

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-04, 05:14

Otto was binded and encased.

Nanoha and Vivio.. well, right now I'm wondering which of them is going to survive...

oh so thats how Otto was conquered...thanks for the info!:)

As far as Nanoha vs. Vivio is concerned...Nanoha will eventually use "Blaster Mode" just to end this battle and since Quattro is controlling Vivio, Vivio will just have the intention of killing Nanoha.

LoweGear

2007-09-04, 05:19

Um, couldn't really understand Mach Calibur's speech to Subaru, although it made her fight to her full potential against Ginga...

I got that covered. :)

Reposted from OC, and revised to be more accurate to what was actually said:

Just as rehearsed.
We can still take actions, you and I
We can still fight, so why abandon now?
You taught me the reason for my being in here.
My strength, and power which you adore so much.
Don't make everything a lie.

:) Mach Calibur = Truly awesome :)

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-04, 05:26

I got that covered. :)

Reposted from OC, and revised to be more accurate to what was actually said:

Just as rehearsed.
We can still take actions, you and I
We can still fight, so why abandon now?
You taught me the reason for my being in here.
My strength, and power which you adore so much.
Don't make everything a lie.

:) Mach Calibur = Truly awesome :)

Cool thanks for the translation!:)
yea, Mach Calibur is truly awesome, taking control of Subaru's body like that...pure win...although Teana really has proven that she has unpredictable tactics within herself and knocking out two Number simultaneously equals to a much bigger win.:D
ahhaha Mach Calibur: "Alright Buddy!", that was a cool quote given from Mach Calibur...out of all the devices that was made in StrikerS for the Forwards, Mach Calibur had the most personality in it.

Burner of Anime

2007-09-04, 05:56

This episode is a showcase of 10 episodes of boring training compressed into 30 seconds of awesome for Teana. In that span of time she pulled out superior firecontrol, ambidexterity, situational awareness, an anti-missile and a melee counter for Deed and Nove. On top of all that, she did it without moving around too much as well as introducing the Numbers to Oyashiro-sama's temple of pain :uhoh:

Taking apart the attack, looks like Teana did it in 3 stages.

The setup: Luring them in with her decoys. Then getting into position to target her x-fire bolts and charge her AP round. That way, while the Numbers surrounding her and get confused by the smokescreen she is already prepared to attack. She probably counted on them underestimating her and afraid, not standing amongst them and preparing some violent death. :cool:

The nerfing of the opposition. I suspect one of the reasons why Teana's illusions are so effective is that they are solid [though fragile] projections. It has enough mass to explode into a smokescreen on contact with a projectile or energy weapon :cool:The really sad thing about the Number's is that they probably aren't trained to attack and defend at the same time. It's as if their battle doctrine is so narrow that it relies only on overpowering offense to quickly run down the opposition.

Problems arise when faced with someone of even greater power [The Gundam girls :heh:] or who is simply reluctant to fight directly. Taking advantage of this, Teana misdirected Uendi's fire and broke Nove's skates [slowing her down for the next stage]. Also blame Dr Jail for not installing a better set of sensors on all his girls. Probably spent too much on the ship and factory.

The execution: This bears repeating, Teana does not have a "Befriend" mode :uhoh: She's also a training course junkie :rolleyes: The really funny thing about it is that her training partner just happens to be a combat cyborg :eyespin:The big irony in this is that she probably has more practical experiance stopping one than even the captains. Anyway, taking out Uendi was classic [and why a gunshield isn't such a good idea]- the girl was key to stopping Teana earlier. I'm betting she didn't find her gun overloading and blowing up fun.

Deed was probably the luckiest though, she never knew what hit her :heh: Teana probably wasn't aiming for the back of Deed head but her own. It's a pretty suicidal move, though in this situation Teana was dead anyway if she messed up. [I suspect that her required reading happens to have an entry with Joseph Joestar :heh:] She likely set the bolt to do this on remote to prevent capture or violent Number death to herself >_<. After that, she takes control of the other flying orb of hurt and smashes it into the now defenseless Uendi.

In foresight, Dr. Jail probably wasn't crazy to send 4 girls after her. Teana isn't the most powerful of the group, just the most businesslike in stopping the opposition. I'd rate her ahead of both Vita and Signum for her willingness to commit brutality on the job. Pity the Numbers weren't as serious against the resident overachiever.

My only disappointment was that there was no violent hatchet death involved. :( Maybe next week

With that said, Nanoha flattening Deici was a suprise. Shortest course in befriending thus far :heh:

Skane

2007-09-04, 06:32

Quite frankly, an ending I'd like to see is Hayate dying, of course in a nice entrance - like being the key to saving Vivio or whatever. It is clear that the authors don't like her very much to the point of Shaft. Might as well let her die a nice death so they don't have to draw her the next time...
If they decide to off Hayate, they better damn well give her a decent Unison Transformation scene. She's one of the ACEs damnit!

<-- Disgruntled Hayate fan.

Gnash.

Kha

2007-09-04, 07:07

Chi-no

2007-09-04, 07:18

Yes... This esp is interesting and Finally saw Vivio's form in this...... :P

I kinda like this esp but no finishing to each fight yet... IMO.

But what surprised me much is Nanoha's Limiter released Blast at the start.... :cool:

And As for Hayate, she is the commander. So that's why she have to supervise the fight from outside hence not much appearance.

Furthermore, this esp is Star Strike. So I guess Hayate's duel or action have to go in another esp ..... :)

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-04, 07:24

Vivio leaps 10 years into the future...

Hayate looks like a dead girl walking...

!!!

ARE THEY TRYING TO REPLACE HAYATE WITH VIVIO SO THAT THE ACES ARE PURE NXF?! URUSENAI! URUSENAI! URUSENAAAAAAAAAAAAI!!!

Think about it this way...

Season 1 -> Precia 'died', she is a villain who is also someone close to Fate, who has been focus on the show.

Season 2 -> Reinforce 'died', she is a 'villain' (Sort of) who is also someone Hayate feels attached too, who has been focus on the show.

Now for season 3, we have quite a bit of focus on Nanoha. And now we have Vivio who has turn 'bad', and is someone very very close to Nanoha...

...I like where it's going ;) .

arkhangelsk

2007-09-04, 07:58

Yeah, yeah, Chaos. But frankly, if they are going to treat Hayate in that way, I'd be happier if Vivio replaced her. Just as long as they don't shaft Vivio in Season 4 (if there are still any vieweres) in the name of more NxF!

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-04, 08:01

arkhangelsk

2007-09-04, 08:39

Luring them in with her decoys. Then getting into position to target her x-fire bolts and charge her AP round. That way, while the Numbers surrounding her and get confused by the smokescreen she is already prepared to attack. She probably counted on them underestimating her and afraid, not standing amongst them and preparing some violent death. :cool:Actually, they were quite on the alert, and wondering why she isn't running.I suspect one of the reasons why Teana's illusions are so effective is that they are solid [though fragile] projections. It has enough mass to explode into a smokescreen on contact with a projectile or energy weapon :cool:Actually, they aren't solid. The shots clearly pass through them. Any smoke created is a result of the Numbers' attacks missing. In the critical moment, Novu and Deed actually was hitting real targets, but Teana managed to dodge. is that they probably aren't trained to attack and defend at the same time. It's as if their battle doctrine is so narrow that it relies only on overpowering offense to quickly run down the opposition.Actually, few mages can truly attack and defend at the same time - it is one or the other. The Numbers showed all the signs of well-drilled troops nevertheless on action for the first time in their life (remember these three were three of the newest Numbers) - they attacked enthusiastically according to drill, without yet being able to adapt to situations or insert randomness. In fact, their mistake in assessment was probably not so much that they underestimated Teana, but that in some ways they overestimated her. That and a desire for a quick kill caused all of them to decide to maximize saturation effect before she could find a gap and disappear into another game of hide and seek (or whoever killed Otto came for them) - not realizing that today was the day of the overwatch - Wendi should concentrated on overwatch, not attacked. Deed is quite adequate to suppress Teana and Novu could have broken her ribs. They don't need sensors. They desperately needed a little experience, or maybe Cinque, who has the most experience of the ground team.

Novu also acted like a new rookie. For all her enthusiasm, her experience is low. This may have been why she was in shock at the sudden loss of her sisters - the true correct move here, of course, is probably to continue attack.Yeah, yeah, arkhangelsk. Because Vivio is a much better replacement.

You know that wasn't what I meant. However, Hayate is quite beyond easy repair after all the damage they done to this point.

Skane

2007-09-04, 09:09

Some points which I wish to raise and enquire about after watching the RAW for Ep23.

Has anybody started discussing about the lady who looks like an adult Lutecia in the photo that Zest threw at Regius? After the revelation about Quint and the Nakajima sisters, perhaps Lucetia is in a similar position?
.
Mach Calibur is becoming one of my favourite devices, but I be damned if I did not wish for its grammar to be better...
.
I await the fan-material in which Teana hacks up the Numbers using her device like a hatchet... Hmm... dualwielding hatchets?
.
Hayate is probably the only other Mage alive in the canonverse that can match beams with Nanoha... Yes, yes... there is the Arc-en-Ciel, but that is powered by MagiTech, so it is not as disturbing.
.
Speaking of which... now that Vita and Signum has Unisoned, Hayate better damn well be the next one. After all the pre-series promotion, the pre-season manga chapters, etc... I feel very cheated out of my Hayate character development.

After all the mud-dragging, the character assassination, the grotesque lack of screentime, the lamentable absence of real character development, etc... I can still find it in my heart to forgive them if they can at least give me some "fanservice" in the form of Hayate PROVING why she is ranked SS PRIOR to Unison...

I find it very frustrating on how they are making her such a lame duck when she has one of the most interesting background history, has the mojo of Ancient Belka, is part Lost Logia due to complete fusion with the Tome of the Night Sky, etc...

I am not buying the "She's Arty, Can't Melee" spin. She is not actually using shells here, but MAGIC. What Hayate has is a humongous amount of Ancient Belka "mana". Mana which can be converted into a variety of spells.

Too big a pool of mana for finesse in melee? SCREW FINESSE. Use that power to create a Ground-Zero spell that explodes around you. Diabolic Emission is a grand example of what can be done, especially if you recall Reinforce's usage of it in A's. Nanoha and Fate had to flee for their lives from it and they were ranked AAA at that time. Quattro and Dieci were not exactly eager to tank it out either in StrikerS, so we know it can be used as a viable "barrier defence". This is merely one example, mind you. Close-quarter combat does not necessarily mean blades and fists.

"But what about the collateral damage?"

Oh good gravy... Hayate CAN FLY! Unless Quattro starts chucking innocents at Hayate (which amuses me greatly), collateral damage will not be an issue. Hayate can attack from far, FAR away; so they can afford to allocate her some free airspace without overlapping the combat zones of the frontliners.

HECK, I even had a spell idea where Hayate modifies Bloody Dagger into a Bloody Barrier (which has the bonus of sounding like a frustrated swear when said by the enemy) where there are multiple mass rotations of magical daggers/blades around her. With the amount of magical energy she can pump out, an offensive defensive barrier should be of little problem for her.

Or Hell, even a giant iceberg would do... Hurling a few dozen of those should give slight pause to even the most ardent of melee fighters.

I mean seriously... when your Unison Device has better close-combat skills than the Meister who created it... something went wrong with the plot somewhere.

Cheers.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-04, 09:11

You know that wasn't what I meant. However, Hayate is quite beyond easy repair after all the damage they done to this point.

Oh come on, sure she got the short stick but I won't say she's unrepairable of any degree...

Aaron008R

2007-09-04, 09:42

Oh wow...:twitch: I've never seen Skane this riled up before...

Speaking of which... now that Vita and Signum has Unisoned, Hayate better damn well be the next one. After all the pre-series promotion, the pre-season manga chapters, etc... I feel very cheated out of my Hayate character development.

After all the mud-dragging, the character assassination, the grotesque lack of screentime, the lamentable absence of real character development, etc... I can still find it in my heart to forgive them if they can at least give me some "fanservice" in the form of Hayate PROVING why she is ranked SS PRIOR to Unison...

I find it very frustrating on how they are making her such a lame duck when she has one of the most interesting background history, has the mojo of Ancient Belka, is part Lost Logia due to complete fusion with the Tome of the Night Sky, etc...

I am not buying the "She's Arty, Can't Melee" spin. She is not actually using shells here, but MAGIC. What Hayate has is a humongous amount of Ancient Belka "mana". Mana which can be converted into a variety of spells.

Too big a pool of mana for finesse in melee? SCREW FINESSE. Use that power to create a Ground-Zero spell that explodes around you. Diabolic Emission is a grand example of what can be done, especially if you recall Reinforce's usage of it in A's. Nanoha and Fate had to flee for their lives from it and they were ranked AAA at that time. Quattro and Dieci were not exactly eager to tank it out either in StrikerS, so we know it can be used as a viable "barrier defence". This is merely one example, mind you. Close-quarter combat does not necessarily mean blades and fists.

"But what about the collateral damage?"

Oh good gravy... Hayate CAN FLY! Unless Quattro starts chucking innocents at Hayate (which amuses me greatly), collateral damage will not be an issue. Hayate can attack from far, FAR away; so they can afford to allocate her some free airspace without overlapping the combat zones of the frontliners.

HECK, I even had a spell idea where Hayate modifies Bloody Dagger into a Bloody Barrier (which has the bonus of sounding like a frustrated swear when said by the enemy) where there are multiple mass rotations of magical daggers/blades around her. With the amount of magical energy she can pump out, an offensive defensive barrier should be of little problem for her.

Or Hell, even a giant iceberg would do... Hurling a few dozen of those should give slight pause to even the most ardent of melee fighters.

I mean seriously... when your Unison Device has better close-combat skills than the Meister who created it... something went wrong with the plot somewhere.
[/list]
Cheers.

And this is certainly one of the most interesting post of his to date yet!:D
Certainly a very encouraging and logical spiel from a fellow Hayate fan.:D And coming from you, it can certainly make one feel better.:D

Points well-received and very possible.:D

Anyway, more on the episode...

Mach Caliber = Autopilot + GAR speech + Okay Buddy! = WIN!!!:D She's definitely a main-character device!:D With such level of autonomous action never shown before!:D Though Cross Mirage English>>>>>>>>>>Mach Caliber Engrish...:heh:

Subaru = Ehhh~ Standard shounen endgame fight. But still delivers.:D

Teana = She's my favorite Forward. And even more so now!:D That's what you call decisive execution of a risky-yet-effective plan! She WINS the episode!:D:D:D

Nanoha = Multi-release?:twitch::twitch::twitch: Just how much power does she have?!?:twitch:

Vivio = 'Ahhh~ I remember when you were still a kid'-te KORA!!!!:twitch::twitch::twitch: Massive growth spurt is MASSIVE!!!:eek: So much so that the brain got left behind...:heh: She does look kinda cool in her new look.:)

Zafira = TEEOOOAAAHHHH!!!:D Major comeback! Though human form could have been nice...:heh:

FlareKnight

2007-09-04, 10:19

Nightengale

2007-09-04, 10:22

Skaneperor wins. :)

Nanoha = Multi-release?:twitch::twitch::twitch: Just how much power does she have?!?:twitch:

More like preliminary Blaster mode unlocks. It's both to make the real B.mode more special and to not make Deici and Vivio's Rare Skill look too crappy.

I mean, they can no longer spare more than several minutes for Nanoha to have a shooting battle with Deici, so what they do? Just have her forced to use Limit 1 of the h4xx Blaster Mode. :p

krisslanza

2007-09-04, 10:50

arkhangelsk

2007-09-04, 11:06

Oh come on, sure she got the short stick but I won't say she's unrepairable of any degree...

They can undo their descriptions of her, though most of it with exception to the whole Close Combat farce is positive. They can't undo the actions on the screen, which are the true fatality...

Even if they say she corrected all her deficiencies for Season 4, we are still left with "You had 10 years. Why didn't you do this the first time!" :(

Estavali

2007-09-04, 11:30

Sorry for the random note but uhm... Isn't Hayate, in a sort of sense, kind of perma-Unison? I recall somewhere, or someone, mentioning Hayate and the Tome of the Night Sky are the 'same' which is why she's always such a high rank.

Eh maybe I'm just crazy but I recall that somewhere I think... :uhoh:
Oh and I haven't done this in a while. *Chucks a brick over at Chaos*

I think this comment came from #18, when Auris was getting pissed off with Hayate's interogretion. If I'm not wrong she said that Hayate's source of power came from the Yaten no Madousho which has been absorbed/merged into her body.

This could have mean that Hayate, in a way, is the Tome of the Night Sky, perhaps in its most primitive form without the Administrative Program controls/co-ordinates the Tome's powers (which may be where Rein II comes in).

FlameSparkZ

2007-09-04, 13:11

More like preliminary Blaster mode unlocks. It's both to make the real B.mode more special and to not make Deici and Vivio's Rare Skill look too crappy.

I mean, they can no longer spare more than several minutes for Nanoha to have a shooting battle with Deici, so what they do? Just have her forced to use Limit 1 of the h4xx Blaster Mode. :p
Blster may be h4xx, but Nanoha is already paying the toll for using it, unless that wound on her hand was from the clash of beams with Dieci :uhoh:

And Vivio...if she lives, she'll be the forth Ancient Belka Rare Skill user :heh:

I really do hope Vivio lives and returns back to a kid...or Nanoha-mama will be a sad Nanoha-mama :(

Kha

2007-09-04, 14:08

I've no more use for Vivio, so just die already. About time for Nanoha to have her emo moment. :D

krisslanza

2007-09-04, 14:38

I've no more use for Vivio, so just die already. About time for Nanoha to have her emo moment. :D

That sound so... So... So cruel... :uhoh:

Fabien

2007-09-04, 15:36

That sound so... So... So cruel... :uhoh:

Yeah, I'd be really sorry for Nanoha.

If death is the only way for Vivio to stop whining, then so be it. But I would prefer that Nanoha didn't see that. I'm not too much for emo scenes.

Keroko

2007-09-04, 16:50

Although she looks older, I've read that she can't stop saying "mama" yet??...and that she still whines like her younger self??....weird:twitch:...but I guess its because Quattro is controlling her:heh:...
[/SPOILER]

Eh... You're slightly misinformed. :heh: Vivio doesn't whine like her younger self. Instead she seems to have gone into a more mature 'denial mode' demanding that Nanoha returns her mother.

Confusing, yes. But that's the idea of the scene.

Nvis

2007-09-04, 19:14

I find it strange why Zest's pictures were Black & White.

It wasn't too long ago, how can they not have colored pictures?

arkhangelsk

2007-09-04, 19:17

And this is certainly one of the most interesting post of his to date yet!:D
Certainly a very encouraging and logical spiel from a fellow Hayate fan.:D And coming from you, it can certainly make one feel better.:D

Points well-received and very possible.:D

The bleak part of all this is that by now I'm convinced that shafting Hayate is a very coordinated plan by 7Arcs for reasons unknown. There is no way the shafting can be so complete otherwise.

The Diabolic Emissions thing would work, had 7Arcs not carefully established a few things:
1) Hayate has slow magical processing, so she won't be able to set it up in time.
2) The power density of AoE is low (see Quattro and Dieci), so someone could potentially weather it and finish the charge while Hayate reloads.

The "long-range shooter" thing might have worked better had 7Arcs not decided Hayate required GCI just to shoot LR... not to mention she has no self LR target acquisition.

The Bloody Barrier thing might have worked had 7Arcs not established that:
1) Hayate has slow magical processsing, so she can't set it in time.
2) She also has poor parallel processing, so she won't be able to handle more than one or two daggers...

You see. This is planned. PLANNED!

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-04, 20:40

Hmm think they just lost the image for Zafira's human form or figured there was no purpose in putting it in now. One impressive things is dumping that bandages and suddenly being a whole lot healthier then when he was making his way out of the hospital room. I guess revenge really gets your spirits up.

No no, Shamal must have remembered her "Greater Heal" spell :p

That's what happens are being in (the) 'shadow' for too long...

In terms of Chrono....he may show up before the season is over....maybe.

Technically, even Yuuno had done more in this 'crisis' than he did :heh:

(Does it seriously take 3 hours?)

Skaneperor wins. :)

Yeah, it's been awhile...

More like preliminary Blaster mode unlocks. It's both to make the real B.mode more special and to not make Deici and Vivio's Rare Skill look too crappy.

I mean, they can no longer spare more than several minutes for Nanoha to have a shooting battle with Deici, so what they do? Just have her forced to use Limit 1 of the h4xx Blaster Mode. :p

You know, from the spoilers... They made it sound as if Nanoha was at least wounded from her fight with Deici...

Eh maybe I'm just crazy but I recall that somewhere I think... :uhoh:
Oh and I haven't done this in a while. *Chucks a brick over at Chaos*

Sticks and stones krisslanza... Sticks and stones...

And Vivio...if she lives, she'll be the forth Ancient Belka Rare Skill user :heh:

I really do hope Vivio lives and returns back to a kid...or Nanoha-mama will be a sad Nanoha-mama :(

Nanoha would get over it... Eventually.

I've no more use for Vivio, so just die already. About time for Nanoha to have her emo moment. :D

Man, I hate those kinds of emo moments...

... Ah well, can't have everything :D

But if I didn't recall wrongly, you need her to die so that you could carry out your only plans huh ;) ?

That sound so... So... So cruel... :uhoh:

Don't worry... I'm sure it'll be quick :D

Yeah, I'd be really sorry for Nanoha.

If death is the only way for Vivio to stop whining, then so be it. But I would prefer that Nanoha didn't see that. I'm not too much for emo scenes.

Death is not absolute... Who knows? We have Vivio whinning in a nightmare or a flashback :uhoh:

Tormenk

2007-09-04, 21:58

If I'm reading the chinese subs right, Quattro was telling Nanoha how the Ancient Belka Royal family modified their bodies to accept Relics and turn themselves into the ultimate organic weapons, also known as Relic weapons. With the fusion of a relic into her body, Vivio's skill would soon reach its maximal potential.Vivio's or perhaps the entire family of the King's skill was known as the Armour of the Saint King, roughly translated.

Well now we know that Lutecia and Zest was paving the way for Vivio, being Experimental Relic weapons. Although the two of them doesn't have any of the Saint King's DNA, as far as we know for now, so how did the two of them have any role in being experimental relic weapons? :twitch: Maybe Jail was testing out how the Relics would react to normal human beings.

Although the most surprising part was still how the Ancient Belka Royal Family modified their bodies to become weapons. :eyespin:

Iknowwhatyou

2007-09-04, 22:01

Now that you mention Hayate don't use shells, I think her power would be more powerful if she used shells. Also maybe Vivio is talking about her real mother and not Nanoha.

Kha

2007-09-05, 00:31

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-05, 00:52

:heh:

I've been proven right again: the Sentokijin Raumritter of the Seiou, otherwise know in Midchilda Engrish as the "Space Marines of the God Empress".

7 Arcs loves me. :D

You could ask for the ultimate favor you know... :heh:

Kha

2007-09-05, 00:54

You could ask for the ultimate favor you know... :heh:I'M TRYING!!! I haven't discovered how to control this power yet... :heh:

Jimmy C

2007-09-05, 04:44

Armor of the Saint is the Ancient Belka Royal Family's Inherent Skill. It's not exclusive to Vivio's original.
Elsewhere, Teana's trap worked because she saw through their weakness. Their combination attacks was perfect, but very obvious. Once they began their attack, she could read them like a book.
And I was right! Regius was responsible for Zest's "death", and his whole team as well.

Keroko

2007-09-05, 05:53

Teana = She's my favorite Forward. And even more so now!:D That's what you call decisive execution of a risky-yet-effective plan! She WINS the episode!:D:D:D

Agreed, and using the Teana transformation song during the moment gave the epicness of the scene a huge boost. :D

Nanoha = Multi-release?:twitch::twitch::twitch: Just how much power does she have?!?:twitch:

As the main character, no doupt a lot. :heh:

Though I think there's a multi release because of the danger. The higher the level, the more dangerous it is for the health.

Vivio = 'Ahhh~ I remember when you were still a kid'-te KORA!!!!:twitch::twitch::twitch: Massive growth spurt is MASSIVE!!!:eek: So much so that the brain got left behind...:heh: She does look kinda cool in her new look.:)

Vivio's new form only bolstered my desire for Vivio to live. :D Both Nighty and me went 'Keroko?!' when the screens were released. I can't wait for some quallity art to apear for me to mess around with. Finally, Keroko's Barrier Jacket.

Zafira = TEEOOOAAAHHHH!!!:D Major comeback! Though human form could have been nice...:heh:

We all want to see him back in his human form. :heh: It's funny though, since Arf seems to prefer human form.

I'M TRYING!!! I haven't discovered how to control this power yet... :heh:

If said power means killing of Vivio, it might be that I'm working my best to couter it. :rolleyes:

Fabien

2007-09-05, 06:15

If said power means killing of Vivio, it might be that I'm working my best to couter it. :rolleyes:

Hey, I've got an idea to please both of you: let's destroy her body, but let her live as a brain-in-test-tube, and put her at the head of TSAB.

Keroko

2007-09-05, 06:22

Hey, I've got an idea to please both of you: let's destroy her body, but let her live as a brain-in-test-tube, and put her at the head of TSAB.

:twitch: No, just.... no.

Fabien

2007-09-05, 06:52

:twitch: No, just.... no.

Tche. You're no fun.

Keroko

2007-09-05, 06:55

Tche. You're no fun.

Can you imagine a Nanoha-mama scene with a brain-in-a-jar?

...

I smell 4koma matrial. :heh:

Fabien

2007-09-05, 07:27

Can you imagine a Nanoha-mama scene with a brain-in-a-jar?

I'm trying to imagine. It would be... quite interesting.

I smell 4koma material.

I'd put it in the "q-ice 4-komas" series -- that author tends to be more cynical and pitiless.

http://f.edulang.com/nano008_tr.jpg

Tormenk

2007-09-05, 07:34

So Jail copied the Royal Family's Inherent skills into his Numbers too? He's probably attempting to bring back the entire Royal family, if he could. Complete with their luxury ship no less. :rolleyes:

Still, it makes you wonder why would a family of people modify their bodies into weapons, with the fusion of artifacts from a race of people who were destroyed by their own achievements.

Keroko

2007-09-05, 08:04

I'm trying to imagine. It would be... quite interesting.

I'd put it in the "q-ice 4-komas" series -- that author tends to be more cynical and pitiless.

http://f.edulang.com/nano008_tr.jpg

Yeah, I meant those.

Estavali

2007-09-05, 08:55

Still, it makes you wonder why would a family of people modify their bodies into weapons, with the fusion of artifacts from a race of people who were destroyed by their own achievements.

They may be either very lacking in sanity, overly power-hungry, or very desperate (maybe everyone was just dying to kill them).

Or they might just have too much time at hand.

The most bizzare possibility would that they were just like StrikerS nano's Zest, and were too impressed with their own bodies :p.

Kha

2007-09-05, 09:38

Hey, I've got an idea to please both of you: let's destroy her body, but let her live as a brain-in-test-tube, and put her at the head of TSAB.USODA!!! :eyespin:

Still, it makes you wonder why would a family of people modify their bodies into weapons, with the fusion of artifacts from a race of people who were destroyed by their own achievements.
The sentokijin Adeptus Astartes were sometimes called the "Sons of the Seiou" having received the gene-seed of the God Empress, and so while they were family, they were soldiers of the elite guard that was the bastion of Seiou's rule for 10 millenia.

Of course, thanks to the Vidalia Heresy, the Seiou passed on soon after, and the Holy Belka Imperium imploded. That event created widespread transdimensional chaos that lasted for centuries, even till several decades after the formation of the TSAB.

What started out as Warhammer 40K crack for the OC thread became fanon fact thanks to canon. :D

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-05, 10:19

Jimmy C

2007-09-05, 10:25

Actually Kha, it seems like Vivio's original may have been the last in line of Ancient Belka's royal family.

Fabien

2007-09-05, 10:54

Yeah, I meant those.

OK. When I read "4-komas", I tend to think about the "official" ones (I call them "official" merely because the chara-design is the same as in the TV series.)
http://damagedgoodz.net/board/kareha.pl/1176349991/-100

Kha

2007-09-05, 11:02

Actually Kha, it seems like Vivio's original may have been the last in line of Ancient Belka's royal family.Last in line? Last Empress or last Marine? :p

More like I NEED A FRIGGIN TRANSLATION OF QUATTRO'S CHATTING! :grumble: :heh:

Jimmy C

2007-09-05, 13:13

More like I NEED A FRIGGIN TRANSLATION OF QUATTRO'S CHATTING!

Tormenk got it correct. That's what Quattro said.
By "Last" I mean last empress. As to why I think she's the last. Well, she wasn't the first, since there was a "Royal Family". Given that the Saint's era was 300 years ago and there seems to have been a huge war with Midchilda within a few generations afterwards, things may have started falling apart right after she left the scene. However she left the scene.
I'm wondering about the title of "the Saint". It is possible it used to be the title of holy kings of Ancient Belka, but she's "THE Saint" now, the others are just "a Saint".

Cyz

2007-09-05, 15:34

LoweGear

2007-09-05, 15:50

Did Mach Caliber acted on its own to protect Subaru? Oh and Tea's fight scene is really something. She manage to knocked off 2 Numbers and now she even had the upper hand. As for Shamal and Zafila, looks like they got even from her....forgot her name.

Yup. From the looks of it, MC used Wing Roads to propel itself into a couple of kicks, then it controlled Revolver Knuckle to punch Ginga way (even now I'm still amazed at Maaha Caariba :eek: )

And the Number you're referring to is Otto :)

Fabien

2007-09-05, 15:58

(even now I'm still amazed at Maaha Caariba

Usually, Teana is the brain of the pair. When she's not there, someone has to think, and since it's not Subaru's forte, the role goes to Mach Caliber. :D

(Note that MC has always been quite talkative -- see e.g. ep 6.)

S_K

2007-09-05, 16:30

My understanding wasn't that great but why was quattro calling Vivio "your majesty" or something like that?
Vivio looks so kick ass now :D
Since when does Subaru have excelion mode
Teana is definetly smart and good
Overall, Great episode, next episode is with Fate, can't wait

serenade_beta

2007-09-05, 18:05

My understanding wasn't that great but why was quattro calling Vivio "your majesty" or something like that?

Well, Vivio is the "king". And Quattro is, well, Quattro. She probably said it just to play around with Vivio.

From what I see, anyways.

X207

2007-09-05, 21:20

Kha

2007-09-05, 23:08

Tormenk got it correct. That's what Quattro said.
By "Last" I mean last empress. As to why I think she's the last. Well, she wasn't the first, since there was a "Royal Family". Given that the Saint's era was 300 years ago and there seems to have been a huge war with Midchilda within a few generations afterwards, things may have started falling apart right after she left the scene. However she left the scene.
I'm wondering about the title of "the Saint". It is possible it used to be the title of holy kings of Ancient Belka, but she's "THE Saint" now, the others are just "a Saint".Ah kk... Looks like my buddy's modification of my theory works better. :)

And to Tormenk: Sorry if I sounded offensive. I'm just frustrated that the Subs are so far behind the critical episodes. :p

serenade_beta

2007-09-05, 23:18

just finished watching the raws and a blog detailing the episode summary. so how many numbers are left again? so far i counted nine, taking into account the new ginga and vivio. those 2 teana took out are they toast now? it seems they're temporarily knocked out to me. i hate that manipulative quattro, i hope she gets knocked off next. hav any of you thought of a way that the numbers could be deprogammed? ie vivio

Uno-With Scaglietti
Due-Who knows...
Tre-With Scaglietti
Quattro-Having fun watching the death match between Vivio and Nanoha
Cinque-Still missing, maybe still in repairs
Sein-With Schach, no idea what's going on over there, conscious
Sette-With Scaglietti
Otto-Captured by Shamal and the wolf/dog (Zafira)
Nove-Conscious, rollerskates have been damaged
Dieci-Binded, defeated by Super Nanoha
Uendi-Unconscious, defeated by Teana
Deed-Unconscious, defeated by Teana
Number 13-I think she's still alive... It looked pretty painful..., defeated by Mach Calibar.

Deprogram? I don't think they were controlled in the first place. I don't think they can be reverted back into a human, either.

Tormenk

2007-09-05, 23:55

@Kha: no worries dude. :D

I prefer the English subs too for better understanding since I'm half a banana. :heh:

If anyone wants, I could translate a short part of the episode like what Quattro was saying to Nanoha. No guarantee for 100% accuracy since my grasp of the chinese subs is shaky at best.

btw, does this end Vice's comeback? Shooting at drones from a heli? :(

iamandragon

2007-09-06, 00:08

Last in line? Last Empress or last Marine? :p

More like I NEED A FRIGGIN TRANSLATION OF QUATTRO'S CHATTING! :grumble: :heh:

:scared: Erm...tell me which part is Quattro's chatting and I'll translate for you?

EDIT: Done

-Nanoha enters:
Welcome. I have been waiting here for long. Thank you for running here for nothing. However, your comrades who are fighting in other places are in a big pinch.
-Shows screens
Nanoha: I'm arresting you for large scale rioting. I command you to stop the riot and unarm yourself.
Quattro: You can execute your mission so calmly even in the face of your comrades and daughter are in such danger? That's nice, this devilish sense of justice.
-Touches Vivio, Divine buster'ed
Quattro: However, I wonder if you can keep your calm if I do this?
-Shocks Vivio
Quattro: Let me tell you something good. When she was sleeping in the the case, it was her who destroyed the truck and the gadget drone. And the bombardment from Deici you blocked with all your might can be easilly survived by Vivio no matter what. That is the inherit skill of the ancient Belka Royal Families, the Holy King's armor. Through the fusion of relic, this child call back this power completely. Ancient Belka royals are the ultimate weapons through self-modification, they have the power of the relic based weapons.
-Vivio screams out for Nanoha and vice versa
Quattro: It will be completed soon. Our King got the power of the cradle, the ultimate warrior with unlimited power.
-Vivio gets naked
Quattro: There there your majesty, you can't cry like that all the time. Nanoha mama is waiting for you to save her. And the scary devil there is the one who took away your mama. Do you best in taking her out, and save your real mama. Your majesty's body has the power just for this. Listen to your heart's voice and release this power.
-Vivio transforms
Quattro: If you can stop this child, maybe this cradle can also stop? Now, mother and daughter, kill each other.

Nvis

2007-09-06, 01:20

Question!

Why isn't the Asura joining in the battles? It should be armed and at least provide cover fire for Hayate's group.

Kha

2007-09-06, 01:23

Thanks for the translation! I see how it relates to my theory better now! :D

Question!

Why isn't the Asura joining in the battles? It should be armed and at least provide cover fire for Hayate's group.Well... so far, the only gun we've seen is the Arc-en-ciel, not the flashy CIWS tracer flares and battleship guns of Gundam lore, and 7Arcs seems to want to keep it that way. :p

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-06, 04:38

:scared: Erm...tell me which part is Quattro's chatting and I'll translate for you?

EDIT: Done

-Nanoha enters:
Welcome. I have been waiting here for long. Thank you for running here for nothing. However, your comrades who are fighting in other places are in a big pinch.
-Shows screens
Nanoha: I'm arresting you for large scale rioting. I command you to stop the riot and unarm yourself.
Quattro: You can execute your mission so calmly even in the face of your comrades and daughter are in such danger? That's nice, this devilish sense of justice.
-Touches Vivio, Divine buster'ed
Quattro: However, I wonder if you can keep your calm if I do this?
-Shocks Vivio
Quattro: Let me tell you something good. When she was sleeping in the the case, it was her who destroyed the truck and the gadget drone. And the bombardment from Deici you blocked with all your might can be easilly survived by Vivio no matter what. That is the inherit skill of the ancient Belka Royal Families, the Holy King's armor. Through the fusion of relic, this child call back this power completely. Ancient Belka royals are the ultimate weapons through self-modification, they have the power of the relic based weapons.
-Vivio screams out for Nanoha and vice versa
Quattro: It will be completed soon. Our King got the power of the cradle, the ultimate warrior with unlimited power.
-Vivio gets naked
Quattro: There there your majesty, you can't cry like that all the time. Nanoha mama is waiting for you to save her. And the scary devil there is the one who took away your mama. Do you best in taking her out, and save your real mama. Your majesty's body has the power just for this. Listen to your heart's voice and release this power.
-Vivio transforms
Quattro: If you can stop this child, maybe this cradle can also stop? Now, mother and daughter, kill each other.

I liked the last quote given by Quattro in her speech to Nanoha...now I'm wondering if Nanoha has the guts to defeat Vivio and still save her at the same time while blasting away Cradle with Quattro in it. (seems like the main villain has changed...Quattro seems more evil than Scaglietti in these final moments of the final battle)

Jimmy C

2007-09-06, 04:41

so far, the only gun we've seen is the Arc-en-ciel, not the flashy CIWS tracer flares and battleship guns of Gundam lore,

Not to mention, there are mages all over the area. If the Asura starts firing anti-ship cannons indiscriminately, it could hurt their forces more than the Cradle.

now I'm wondering if Nanoha has the guts to defeat Vivio and still save her at the same time while blasting away Cradle with Quattro in it.

Ever since I watched ep23, I've been imagining Nanoha leading Vivio on a merry chase throughout the Cradle, letting Vivio blast the ship to pieces while trying to nail her. It would certainly knock down several birds with one stone. Especially if she could reach the bridge.

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-06, 05:06

Ever since I watched ep23, I've been imagining Nanoha leading Vivio on a merry chase throughout the Cradle, letting Vivio blast the ship to pieces while trying to nail her. It would certainly knock down several birds with one stone. Especially if she could reach the bridge.

yea now that would be interesting...since Nanoha has already reached the throne room, and Vivio is all "mama kill mode", she can lead Vivio into the generator room where Vita was supposedly to be there. And I think by now, Nanoha knows that Vita is in critical condition and doing this tactic would be smart on her part. Although since its Quattro controlling Vivio (or is she not in control...sorry haven't seen this episode yet, just the two main fights...:heh:), Quattro would be more smart not to let that happen.

iamandragon

2007-09-06, 05:33

I liked the last quote given by Quattro in her speech to Nanoha...now I'm wondering if Nanoha has the guts to defeat Vivio and still save her at the same time while blasting away Cradle with Quattro in it. (seems like the main villain has changed...Quattro seems more evil than Scaglietti in these final moments of the final battle)

Absolutely, at the double. Look what she's done to Fate and Vita in season one and two. And furthermore, this is her daughter! She'll do more than just 'befriending'
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3388/befriendedcq6.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=befriendedcq6.jpg)

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-06, 05:39

well this is still a "mahou shoujo" genre, so I don't think we'll get a very bad ending...although there are some who think that Vivio isn't in the description of the upcoming episode 26 = she died saving Nanoha and Vita while crashing Cradle somewhere...

But seeing Vivio in this form, I don't think I would want her to be killed in anyway now...she looks pretty cool, and copying Nanoha's hairstyle at the same time.:D But I have a feeling that she'll revert herself back to being 5 years old if she gets saved by Nanoha....

Tormenk

2007-09-06, 05:42

If Vivio lives, I want her to stay in her current form. Teen-Vivio over chibi-Vivio anyday. Provided she lives of course.

iamandragon

2007-09-06, 05:43

Tormenk

2007-09-06, 05:49

Come to think of it, Vivio is the activation key of the Cradle, but is she in actual control of the ship? Or is it the Doctor and Quattro?

X207

2007-09-06, 06:00

i think vivio is bound to be saved by nanoha abd revert to her younger form.

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-06, 06:05

plot hole perhaps?
maybe originally Vivio is the "power source" of the ship and its just on auto-pilot mode towards TSAB.
Now I'm just wondering whether Vivio is being controlled by Quattro or not in her current form.

Anyways, maybe the reason why she reverted to this form was because it had to do with something that Jail did to her when she got captured?
I mean I do remember Jail holding a certain relic in his hand for Vivio to be experimented on in one of the previous episodes...now that would suck for Lutecia if thats Relic#11.

I'm all in for Vivio being stuck in Teenage form if she gets rescued by Nanoha...BTW though, does this episode show Vivio's device for this form?

arkxkra

2007-09-06, 06:05

wow, Vivio the "new look", very similar to Nanoha, especially the hair style, so sad to see them fight each other + Nanoha-chan 2nd level release of her blast mode, 1st level release already injured... really hope later on, Nanoha-chan still ok, and not heavy injured...
this epsiode the star team not bad, teana 1 vs 3 finally fight back ...

Subaru divide buster not bad, 1 shoot finish ... :p as well as Mach Caliber good "auto pilot"....

Although the fight quite short, i think is very short, but is a nice fight....
looking forward to next episdoe, finally lightning team fight back,i think can finally feel the power of feito-chan mode 4th, but again, dont become a heavy injured please .... :p

Keroko

2007-09-06, 06:52

:scared: Erm...tell me which part is Quattro's chatting and I'll translate for you?

EDIT: Done

-Nanoha enters:
Welcome. I have been waiting here for long. Thank you for running here for nothing. However, your comrades who are fighting in other places are in a big pinch.
-Shows screens
Nanoha: I'm arresting you for large scale rioting. I command you to stop the riot and unarm yourself.
Quattro: You can execute your mission so calmly even in the face of your comrades and daughter are in such danger? That's nice, this devilish sense of justice.
-Touches Vivio, Divine buster'ed
Quattro: However, I wonder if you can keep your calm if I do this?
-Shocks Vivio
Quattro: Let me tell you something good. When she was sleeping in the the case, it was her who destroyed the truck and the gadget drone. And the bombardment from Deici you blocked with all your might can be easilly survived by Vivio no matter what. That is the inherit skill of the ancient Belka Royal Families, the Holy King's armor. Through the fusion of relic, this child call back this power completely. Ancient Belka royals are the ultimate weapons through self-modification, they have the power of the relic based weapons.
-Vivio screams out for Nanoha and vice versa
Quattro: It will be completed soon. Our King got the power of the cradle, the ultimate warrior with unlimited power.
-Vivio gets naked
Quattro: There there your majesty, you can't cry like that all the time. Nanoha mama is waiting for you to save her. And the scary devil there is the one who took away your mama. Do you best in taking her out, and save your real mama. Your majesty's body has the power just for this. Listen to your heart's voice and release this power.
-Vivio transforms
Quattro: If you can stop this child, maybe this cradle can also stop? Now, mother and daughter, kill each other.

Quattro is the first really evil, really nasty villain Nanoha has. For that, she has my respect. :D

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-06, 07:15

Come to think of it, Vivio is the activation key of the Cradle, but is she in actual control of the ship? Or is it the Doctor and Quattro?

It's most likely the latter, either that or the ship's on autopilot.

i think vivio is bound to be saved by nanoha abd revert to her younger form.

Cross my fingers.

plot hole perhaps?
maybe originally Vivio is the "power source" of the ship and its just on auto-pilot mode towards TSAB.
Now I'm just wondering whether Vivio is being controlled by Quattro or not in her current form.

Vivio is just the power source.

And technically, she is sort of controlled by Quattro, but not against her will...

... I suppose 'manipulated' is the better word.

Anyways, maybe the reason why she reverted to this form was because it had to do with something that Jail did to her when she got captured?
I mean I do remember Jail holding a certain relic in his hand for Vivio to be experimented on in one of the previous episodes...now that would suck for Lutecia if thats Relic#11.

If I'm not wrong, Quattro hurt Vivio badly enough for her to go into combat mode as a defense, releasing the Saint King's full power.

I'm all in for Vivio being stuck in Teenage form if she gets rescued by Nanoha...BTW though, does this episode show Vivio's device for this form?

Why assume she even needs a device?

Fabien

2007-09-06, 07:51

Why assume she even needs a device?

If anything, the Relic she has in her body can take the role of her device.

Tormenk

2007-09-06, 07:57

Kha

2007-09-06, 08:16

ARGH! Vivio, just die already! Its for the good of the series; WE NEED MORE EMO TO SAVE THE BULL:p PLOT! :p

*runs from hail of NxF bricks*

arkhangelsk

2007-09-06, 08:29

At this point, my feelings w/ Vivio are 50-50. I personally want her to die for ruining Season 3, but I figure that if she lives, she'd be a heroine for any possible 4th season. And if they [care enough to DEVELOP her instead of SHAFTING yet another heroine, this is an acceptable ending to me too.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-06, 08:34

ARGH! Vivio, just die already! Its for the good of the series; WE NEED MORE EMO TO SAVE THE BULL:p PLOT! :p

*runs from hail of NxF bricks*

"No grave could be deep enough...!"

[/Black Sabbath]

krisslanza

2007-09-06, 09:37

Heeeeey only I do the brick throwing thing... :uhoh: And only at Chaos :P

And yeah. Man Quattro sounds pretty evil D: Dunno if I'd label her more evil then Precia though.

Tormenk

2007-09-06, 09:52

Precia was insane or crazy or driven by her desire to resurrect Alicia to do do the wrong thing.
The rest of the Numbers serve Jail as they see him as their creator and giving them life, obeying his commands and carrying out his instructions out of gratitude and loyalty. Dieci for example. She was reluctant about the whole Vivio affair but carried on with her assigned duty so as "not to trouble her sisters".

As I see it, Quattro goes beyond merely obeying Jail's commands. She's enjoying it probably as much Jail would if he was there, seeing Nanoha pitted against the very person she swore to protect, Vivio.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-06, 09:58

Heeeeey only I do the brick throwing thing... :uhoh: And only at Chaos :P

That really makes me feel all so special deep down inside...

And yeah. Man Quattro sounds pretty evil D: Dunno if I'd label her more evil then Precia though.

*Shrugged*

krisslanza

2007-09-06, 10:22

I have two things to say about Teana's fight scene:
"HEADSHOT!"
"HEADSHOT!"
"DOUBLE KILL!"

I forget if it'd say double kill or just multikill... :heh:

iamandragon

2007-09-06, 10:39

Relics: the specialized devices of Seiou Family? If not, though not really that important at this point, Jail better provide a answer through his mad ravings in ep 24, at least to give a closure to the question of what Relics REALLY are. :frustrated:

Oh relic is just the power source for the Belka Royals. The Belka Royals modify their bodies into a being of a weapon. They need no device as they don't use magic(that's why they can fight to their full capacity in the AMF).

Think of the Signum and Vita's device, the body of the royals are equivalent of those and their magic cartilages are relics.

Fabien

2007-09-06, 10:42

Precia was insane or crazy

Do you think Quattro is sane?

Tormenk

2007-09-06, 10:45

Teana just pawned Deed's head for 100 gold!

Teana pawned Wendi's head for a extra 125 gold!

DOUBLE KILL!

Sorry, just had to do it when krisslanza mentioned double kill :heh:

Keroko

2007-09-06, 10:58

Relics: the specialized devices of Seiou Family? If not, though not really that important at this point, Jail better provide a answer through his mad ravings in ep 24, at least to give a closure to the question of what Relics REALLY are. :frustrated:

I don't see why they have too. We never really found out what Jewel Seeds were either. /shrug.

ARGH! Vivio, just die already! Its for the good of the series; WE NEED MORE EMO TO SAVE THE BULL:p PLOT! :p

*runs from hail of NxF bricks*

*aura of doom* The NXF bricks are safe compared to the ICB that's aimed at your head....

Burner of Anime

2007-09-06, 11:22

Teana just pawned Deed's head for 100 gold!

Teana pawned Wendi's head for a extra 125 gold!

DOUBLE KILL!

Sorry, just had to do it when krisslanza mentioned double kill :heh:

How will Teana translate as a DOTA avatar?

Probably have Windwalk and Mirror Image to reflect her stealth and deception skills. Then Trueshot Aura [or sniper] for her l33t headsmacking skills and Starfall to show up her X-Fire shot.

This is already all manner of nasty :uhoh: Means someone should put her in :heh:

Anyway, I figured the writers were not about to screw the girl over because of the plot. As a matter of redemption for the messy beginning they had her clean house with style- not with a 10km death sphere like Nanoha or Hayate :rolleyes:.

Fabien

2007-09-06, 11:25

Quattro is the first really evil, really nasty villain Nanoha has. For that, she has my respect. :D

But can one take Quattro seriously, with such a ridiculous hairstyle?

Jimmy C

2007-09-06, 11:52

I don't see why they have too. We never really found out what Jewel Seeds were either.

But in seasons 1 and 2, we did find out why the Lost Logias in questions were Bad News. That was enough.
We don't even know that much about the Relics. If they'd just said something like "Each Relic grants its holder unique abilities" then showed one or two such abilities, that would have been enough for me.

Estavali

2007-09-06, 11:59

But can one take Quattro seriously, with such a ridiculous hairstyle?

Maybe that's the idea :D. You don't think her as serious villain stock and then she pulls all sorts of psycho mayhem on you.

But then again Quattro's portrayal has been consistent throughout the series. I believe everyone's impression of her after #12 would be, "Damn, she's quite the bitch..." And that sadistic bitchiness just got better (or worse? Your pick).

Kha

2007-09-06, 12:06

*aura of doom* The NXF bricks are safe compared to the ICB that's aimed at your head....Standing up for one's beliefs is what a Cleric does best! :D

*ICB >>>> Creator-san*

~~~~~~

Teana can't go invis, so no Windwalk. I'd go for the Variable Shot no-resistence nuke. So

Teana the Lanster Bullet

Variable Shot - Drop a meteor into an area causing Chaos damage and ignores spell resistance. Higher levels affect larger area and more damage.

Spawn Silhouette - Create a controllable copy of Teana. Costs mana to maintain; more silhouttes, more drain. Higher levels reduce cooldown and mana cost.

Expose Weakness - Chance to do 2x damage, 0.5 sec stun and cause target to lose 10 armor for 4 seconds.

Crossfire Mirage - [Ultimate; Channeling] Large AOE attack causing random bolts to rain down on opponents around her for 10 seconds. Getting caught in a bolt does more damage and stuns for 1 sec.

:heh:

Xellos-_^

2007-09-06, 13:31

Uno-With Scaglietti
Due-Who knows...
Tre-With Scaglietti
Quattro-Having fun watching the death match between Vivio and Nanoha
Cinque-Still missing, maybe still in repairs
Sein-With Schach, no idea what's going on over there, conscious
Sette-With Scaglietti
Otto-Captured by Shamal and the wolf/dog (Zafira)
Nove-Conscious, rollerskates have been damaged
Dieci-Binded, defeated by Super Nanoha
Uendi-Unconscious, defeated by Teana
Deed-Unconscious, defeated by Teana
Number 13-I think she's still alive... It looked pretty painful..., defeated by Mach Calibar.

Deprogram? I don't think they were controlled in the first place. I don't think they can be reverted back into a human, either.

Other then Quattro, all the surviving numbers will be "befriend" and taken in by the TSBA.

btw do we still have a Nanoha irc channel?

Serenity85

2007-09-06, 13:38

I have doughts on 1-4 thou as they have a closer tie to Jail, thou 2 might survive only cause well we have no idea where she is :P. My bets are jail, 1, 3-4 dead by the end with 2 living cause of her camo mode. 5-12 are toss ups. 13 aka Ginga until the dust clears we won't know how bad Subaru smacked her.

Quick random thoughts

Dream_Traveller

2007-09-06, 13:49

Nah, in my view, Cinque, Sein, Dieci and Uendi will be the ones that are at least destined to survive. Uendi ain't dead, she's just knocked out. :p :heh: But seriously, now, those four, I see them living through the series. The others, I'm not so sure about, Quattro, Uno and Nove in particular.

As for "Tredici"/Ginga...as said, we can only see what the outcome is after the smoke clears, proverbially.

Keroko

2007-09-06, 13:55

But in seasons 1 and 2, we did find out why the Lost Logias in questions were Bad News. That was enough.
We don't even know that much about the Relics. If they'd just said something like "Each Relic grants its holder unique abilities" then showed one or two such abilities, that would have been enough for me.

We know about as much as we know about the Jewel Seeds. 'They are technollogy developped by ancient civilisations, and is made out of a highly crystalized energy'

Standing up for one's beliefs is what a Cleric does best! :D

*ICB >>>> Creator-san*

If that involves killing innocent 6-year olds, then I highly doupt being a Cleric makes your idea more convincable. *readies another shot*

Teana can't go invis, so no Windwalk. I'd go for the Variable Shot no-resistence nuke. So

Teana the Lanster Bullet

Variable Shot - Drop a meteor into an area causing Chaos damage and ignores spell resistance. Higher levels affect larger area and more damage.

Spawn Silhouette - Create a controllable copy of Teana. Costs mana to maintain; more silhouttes, more drain. Higher levels reduce cooldown and mana cost.

Expose Weakness - Chance to do 2x damage, 0.5 sec stun and cause target to lose 10 armor for 4 seconds.

Crossfire Mirage - [Ultimate; Channeling] Large AOE attack causing random bolts to rain down on opponents around her for 10 seconds. Getting caught in a bolt does more damage and stuns for 1 sec.

Expose weakness should work over a certain amount of seconds raher then one shot. This will both make the abillity usefull as well as making it stack well with +attack speed.