View Full Version : Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS - Favorite Character(s) Poll
Welcome to Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS - Favorite Character(s) Poll - the place where you can express all of your love towards your favorite Nanoha Strikers characters.
You can vote for multiple characters all at once in this poll. Your vote is final once you click on the "vote now" tab. You won't be able to comeback and vote a second time for another character. Choose wisely!
The poll is public which means the votes will be visible to everyone!
Thread Rules
No campaigning for votes.
Any post with "Vote for…/Do not vote for..." verbiage will be deleted. Discuss why you do or don’t like characters without campaigning for votes.
Do not insult or harass other members for their choices.
Please remember: this is for fun. Do not take it so seriously that you end up in an argument with another forum member because they express a fondness for a character you loathe. Discussion and good spirited banter is always welcome, but harassing people won’t be tolerated.
Have fun, but post intelligently.
It’s great to have fun, but please try your best to add substance to what you post and make your thoughts interesting for the generation of fans that will follow after you’re long gone and on to watching some other series.
serenade_beta
2007-09-23, 22:48
All Hail, Britannia Jail!
Numbers for the win!....... Well, until episode 26.
The others should burn! :D ... .... :frustrated:
I wonder how much i'd have to scroll down if ALL the characters were included instead of that nice little "Other" option... =o
I practically selected everything, because really, you can't just love one and not the others. They all grow on you, it just takes some time.
Fate: because her Riot Zamber form in the end is made of absolute hot and win :love:
Lutecia: for the random RORI RAIDA jokes :p
Subaru: like, GaoGaiGar/Alt Eisen hybrid?
Ginga: :love: :love: Number or not, she's still Ginga. :love: :love:
got my vote in, lol forgot to check if you could vote multiple chars b4 clicking vote
Darco_emp
2007-09-23, 23:22
Fate, Nanoha and Vivio for me, do you guys expect anything else? :P
Ultima_Rasengan05
2007-09-24, 03:44
As a Nanoha fan since this year, I just choose everyone as my favorite character(s) in this season. (:heh:, I think I'm being too nice though)
Everyone had their equal share of..."spotlight" throughout the whole season.
Fate had her Sonic form scene as pretty much the highlight of the final battle in StrikerS. Riot Zamber was a really nice form. Becoming a mother (guardian) of two kids that had a bad history behind them.
We got a taste of what 7arcs could call "the white devil emerging" in episode 8...Nanoha really surprised me there.
Nanoha had her breakthrough with various things throughout the whole season. A new barrier jacket form, a serious incident/injury from 8 years ago, a new firing mode (Blaster mode), new Starlight Breaker form (with five directions), and becoming a mother of a little kid that would unexpectedly destroy StrikerS overall impression on its season.:heh:
Hayate...well not much but atleast she unleashed everything that she had without a limiter in episode 12. Shafted throughout the whole second part of the story after the unveiling of the "Prophecy"...and she didn't get a henshin scene...not even a unison henshin scene with Rein...and didn't even have the honor of smashing the Cradle to pieces with a giant blast out of her arsenal of powerful spells...especially in unison mode. She was the head commander of RF6 and the creator of RF6 and never really got the attention that she deserved...oh wells.
Erio and Caro were pretty much the "couple to get married in a couple of years" after episode 2 and onward. Although Erio didn't really have a shocking scene, atleast he was the one to hit Nanoha's barrier jacket in episode 3 or 4...forgot already...and he tried his best to save Vivio from Lutecia and Numbers' crew in episode 17. Caro summoned Voltaire in episode 17 as her highlight in StrikerS...although he looked more mighty and powerful in episode 17, he looked pretty useless in episode 24.:heh:
Teana and Subaru had their share of the spotlight as well...maybe too much of it.:heh:
Teana had her share of "emo-ness" in episode 8 and 9...getting blasted by Nanoha (white devil mode:heh:) and getting punched by Signum (which she claims to have held back from punching too hard:heh:). Although, Teana really did surprise all of us with her useful tactics in
battle. During their first fight with Lutecia/Numbers, she had the tactic of hiding the relic on Caro's head and inside her hat. And during episode 23, when she single handedly took down 2/3 Numbers that were ganging up on her with just two shots of her device.
Subaru had her berserker mode moment in episode 17. Shocking and amazing to see, I'd say that was the most well-animated fight that I have seen in StrikerS. Subaru vs. Cinque and Nove was a great fight. She gave it her all, and at the end didn't succeed in rescuing Ginga. Although it hasn't been said if Subaru could go "Berserker" mode again at will.
Ginga had the ambition of finding out about the incident with her mother's death. Captured by Scaglietti and brainwashed and went against TSAB in the final fight. The only member from the good side to go into the bad side in StrikerS...although we were somewhat certain that either Erio or Fate would get captured because they were Project F experiments and Scaglietti looked like he was interested in them.
Rein Zwei...cute little unison device...nothing much, between her and Vivio, she was the moe element in this season.
Same with Vivio...moe element and NxF generator.:heh:...although her timeskip form will be missed though, atleast she can speak clearly...instead of baby talk.:heh:
Lutecia had potential for a great character in StrikerS and potential to have developed a relationship between Erio and Caro...but got shafted and was befriended quite easily.
Signum and Vita weren't that bad in this season. Both had their share of unison screen time and fight screen time.
Scaglietti was a good evil bad guy in StrikerS...its too bad he didn't get to control Vivio in the end and was just interested in tormenting Fate about Project F and stuff.
As for the others...too many characters to list...Numbers, Regius...Zest...I'll get back to that later...:heh:
Ginga and Signum here, i should stop cheering for the secondary characters >_>
Don't worry. I would have voted for Zest if his name was actually here. Guess we have to make do with "Others". :rolleyes:
my most favourite character is Feito-chan and Nanoha-chan.
i will never forget them....
Fate, Nanoha, Hayate- because they're too pro at being mages :heh:
All the forwards- they're all good
Signum- because she's just cool and crazy
Ginga- How can I ever forget about Gin-nee
Not really good reasons lol
Too bad numbers arent up
Ginga and Signum here, i should stop cheering for the secondary characters >_>
it doesnt mean that they are useless just because they're secondary character. even secondary characters hav value.
Hayate FTW! they can shaft her as much as thes please. I will still vote for her ;_;
Small Boss! She might be small, but she ist the Boss! :D And cute AND funny!
Signum! Because she punched Tea :D Also hair-down Signum is made of win!
Nanoha! Can girls be GAR? Can magicigal Girld be GAR? Yes they Can! She befiended Tea and her "Daughter"
Blaster Mode was awesome! :love:
EnigmaticThief
2007-09-24, 11:11
My favs, in short:
Subaru: Best-developed character in the series.
Teana: Second-best-developed character in the series.
Schach: In Nanoha-verse, Schach is MAI WAIFU!!
Fuyu no Sora
2007-09-27, 17:46
Fav characters in StrikerS:
Fate Testarossa Haraoun. WHO doesn't love this girl? :D:D:D:D:D
Takamachi Nanoha. Love her ^^ Kind, caring and ubar powerful :D Blaster Mode = WIN!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D
Yagami Hayate. Gotta love Hayate ;) :D:D:D
Yagami Signum. He he he :D What can I say? She's one of the best in the series :D:D:D
Yagami Vita: Eternal kid FTW!!! :D Vita's teaching methods are to be feared though :heh::heh: :D:D:D
Yagami Reinforce Zwei. Mini-Boss = Awesome XD! Cute, small and extremely useful. Can you ask for more? :D
Lutecia Alpino. Who here doesn't find mystery girl interesting? :D:heh::heh:
Erio Mondial. PIMP SKILLS FTW!!!! :D:D The first real 'man' in the series :D And with what nerve :D!!!!!
Vivio. I love the kid ^^ So cute and cuddly :D
Many, many others, but I won't list them all, this one's long enough already :heh::heh::heh::heh::heh:
Gah. I can't decide, so I'll pick all the ones I liked in a whole.
Fate T. Harlaown - Come on, do I really need to explain this one?
Nanoha Takamachi - No particular reason. I just like her.
Vita - Hotheaded Knight. Inspired one of the characters in my story, so I gotta love her.
Reinforce Zwei - Chibi Rein. What's not to like?
Lutecia Alphino - Quiet, powerful. Something about that I like.
Erio Mondial - The "hero" of the Fowards. That's an angle I love.
Caro Ru Luche - There's no reason to DISLIKE the strong-willed summoner.
Teana Lanster - Has problems, overcomes them, strong leader. Several reasons to like, none to dislike.
Subaru Nakajima - =3
Vivio - So adorable! I can't find a reason NOT to love her in every way possible!
Other - Agito, Zest, Cinque. - Too bad they aren't individual on the poll.
it doesnt mean that they are useless just because they're secondary character. even secondary characters hav value.
Sure thing, but they often/always get less screentime/developpement.
As a Nanoha fan since this year, I just choose everyone as my favorite character(s) in this season. (:heh:, I think I'm being too nice though)You realise that in the end it is the same as if you had not voted, right?
If I had watched only StrikerS, the aces would have felt totally flat and unappealing, so no vote for Nanoha, Fate or Hayate.
I don't like Subaru or Quattro.
Jail is stupid like only an evil overlord can be.
Caro, Loli-rider lutecia, Zest, Erio, Fried, Voltaire, Garyuu, Carim, Acous, Sascha, Griffith, Chariot, Regius, Evil secretary, Ginga and half the numbers are a waste of animation time.
What's a Shamal, Arf, Yuuno, Zafira or Chrono?
Rein and Vivio never go past moe-blob stage.
That leaves...
Vita, Signum, Vice, Tea, Agito, Nove & some other numbers.
takamachi nanoha-who doesn't vote for her?
yagami hayate-so cool
reinforce zwei-for the kawaiiness and all those desu..
Caro-Ru-Luste-pink hair girl will equal kawaiii...
Teana lanster-for being the leader*well not always...*
Subaru nakajima-her revolver is just so cool...
Deathkillz
2007-09-28, 14:27
All Hail, Britannia Jail!
Numbers for the win!....... Well, until episode 26.
The others should burn! :D ... .... :frustrated:
if you are including fate chan into that equation then you should burn :frustrated:
:rolleyes:
as for me...
Fate chan!
Fate chan!
and lets see...
Fate chan! :D
others:
ginga nee
signum
vita
subaru
now the rest can burn :p
Terrestrial Dream
2007-09-28, 15:57
Subaru- Gaogaigar-tan ftw! And I just like personality and she is quite amusing, I love the part when Subaru was touching Teaana's breast to wake her up.
Other character in Strikers were meh, Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, and all the returning character were basically same as before (I like them, but they are just too static in Strikers, maybe except Fate). I like them better in A's where they go through character development, in Strikers most of them were static. Newbies were all cool, but they are not really my favorite character. Numbers, I can't like them since most had barley any line and Quattro just make me want to punch her in the face.
Bloodseeker
2007-09-29, 02:15
*votes for Fate, Tia, Subaru, Ginga, and other (for my favorite Numbers and Agito)*
Older Fate is made of hot, badass, and MILF. (though she's a little less badass than her loli counterpart)
Tia was smart in a badass kind of way, and she used dual pistols. She's my new second favorite Nanoha character behind Fate. If she and Fate aren't major characters in the next season, I'm not going to be happy.
Subaru... I probably could have done without voting for her, since I like her less than the others that got my votes, but she was cool and kinda likable.
Ginga is sexy and badass.
Wendi and Sein are cute, and Cinque is a badass and the only loli worth a damn this season. (Caro, Lutecia, and Vivio are too damn boring...) Nove, Dieci, and Tre are cool, too, and Quattro was a good villain. Sette and Deed were boring aside from being hot. Otto was epitome of a boring reverse trap. Uno was just boring. We didn't get to see much of Due. (though she earns points for killing some of most unlikable Nanoha characters to date) A few of the better Numbers need to be major combatants in season 4.
Agito is awesome. Thankfully, if the spoilers that I heard were right, she's almost definitely going to be around in season 4.
I probably should have voted Scaglietti instead of Subaru... he made the Numbers, was the head of the most antagonistic team of Nanoha villains to date, and his actions and the degree to which he succeeded made him a pretty epic villain at times. (he wasn't all that memorable personality-wise, though)
Nanoha should have gotten my vote over Subaru as well... she was much more interesting this season, what with the instructor and angry mom dynamics. (damn the DVDs for taking away her psycho look in episode 8)
Hayate could have gotten my vote over Subaru too. (I'm starting to wonder why I clicked on Subaru... she's cool, but she's not a favorite) I disliked her in As, but I dunno, I just liked her whole demeanor more in StrikerS.
Vita was more likable in StrikerS (I was indifferent to her in As), but Shamal and Zafira were just kinda there, and Signum didn't really do anything cool and pissed me off when she decked Tia. (haven't watched the last 3 episodes yet, though)
Rein is cute.
Elio's kinda cool, but he's underdeveloped.
Like I said earlier, Caro is boring. You know that you suck when having the ability to summon a big ass black dragon doesn't make you any cooler. She needs to be reduced to a minor role in season 4. (even if it means taking Elio with her) That screen time can go to cooler characters that could potentially get bumped into minor roles, like the Numbers. (or Arf... she needs to go back to being healthy and get back in the spotlight, dammit)
Lutecia is boring too. Let's hope that she stays with her mom on an isolated planet and out of the way.
So is Vivio. Well, I doubt that she'll play a major role in the next season anyways, assuming that they don't make another 5-10 year time jump.
My favorite character in StrikerS would have to be Subaru. She's the "GaoGaiGar" element in StrikerS :heh:. With that with Teana both of them are great character pairs. One example is Nanoha and Fate.
krisslanza
2007-09-30, 09:23
I voted for Fate, 'cause like... You know she's so awesome >>, Nanoha, Teana, Subaru, Caro, and Vivio.
Should've also picked Jail just because I thought his evil laughter and stuff sounded so nice... XD
FlareKnight
2007-09-30, 14:59
Ah the good old favorite character poll. While had some issues with what was done to StrikerS in some areas having characters I liked was one solid area. So at the moment my top 5 are probably going to be Fate,Vita,Teana,Erio,and Other(for the shafted Chrono as much as anyone).
Fate pretty much stayed in my likbable area during StrikerS, while liked her exploits in the earlier series more she still stayed a favorite. Vita did the most in terms of improving my opinion of her from the previous season. That final battle where she put everything on the line was a really touching thing.
Teana was a well developed new character grew past her issues and had a great fight at the end. Erio could have been more but sadly got the shafting a bit himself. Still for all of it still liked him and the fact he managed to hang in there was something.
Ah the other category. Lots of solid characters from Chrono who I felt the worst for. They marry him off and yet it has no impact on the plot aside from getting in the way of pairing him off with someone like Carim :heh:.
Will wait a bit before making the vote. Since with these when I make a quick decision I always regret not giving a certain character a vote.
FateAnomaly
2007-10-01, 01:06
The others are likeable but Fate will always be my Top choice.:)
Teana , Subaru, Signum then Fate :D
nanoha - her grown up design is just cool! I just love the tank-y and chunky(?) barrier jacket appereance
ginga - i don't really know why, but i really really like ginga, there's something really stylish about her
fate - i really like her voice
takamachi nanoha-who doesn't vote for her?
yagami hayate-so cool
reinforce zwei-for the kawaiiness and all those desu..
Caro-Ru-Luste-pink hair girl will equal kawaiii...
Teana lanster-for being the leader*well not always...*
Subaru nakajima-her revolver is just so cool...
*takamachi nanoha-who doesn't vote for her?*
Errrm, sadly to say, Nanoha lose out on 1 vote in Saimoe Tournment. I wonder who is the last person who pick the other instead of nanoha :upset:
Anyway i do notice alot of votes for Fate as usual, but hayate is still kinda low
My Votes: Nanaha, Fate, Hayate, Caro and Vivo... annd the cute ones xD
deliciousflatchest
2007-10-03, 04:13
Fate, Hayate, Signum, Nanoha, Ginga: deliciousflatchest, being a LOLICON is not interested in these characters!
Jail, Erio: deliciousflatchest doesn't find MOST males to be cute, so no!
Subaru, Teana: Only exceptions on the list, for lezbot and tsundere!
Small Boss, Agito, Cinque, Otto, Vivio, Caro, Lutecia: Yes, for reason mentioned above!
Ok Fate Testarosa Harlaown, has always been my no 1 character. I think I stay by her side also in Strikers.
But what´s this. All of a sudden I start to have some feelings for Subaru Nakajima. I don´t know what´s the matter (i really didn´t like her) but since it´s like this, I have to give her a vote to.
-MotokoAoyama-
2007-10-06, 14:25
loyal fan of Hayate...
Hayate needs more fighting and less talk!
bubbleslayer
2007-10-13, 05:52
My favorite are Vivo, Nanoha and Fate . hmm, if there is a 4th season hopping the focus will be on vivo..
anselfir
2007-10-17, 01:08
nanoha be as badass and overpowered as you want, nanoha. you are god
loli vivio
loli rider--makes me lol every time isee her
that pink blob
small boss
Frankenstein's Clare
2007-10-17, 19:07
Signum because she's Signum (aka fanboy logic). Cool final battle but it was short and pretty much the only noteworthy thing she did all season besides punch Teana, which isn't so cool. Points for ninja-looting Agito off of Zest's still-warm corpse and unlocking a very badass additional form.
Fate because she's Fate (see above). Her final battle suffered from the same animation shortages as Signum's and wasn't nearly as cool, but Scaglietti's 'we're not so different you and I' speech, cliche as it was, got to the core of what her character is about- that earnest little clone soldier, full of doubt but trying to be the best person she can be because Nanoha showed her the light. Literally.
Subaru for providing both comedy (love the ice-cream expression) and real character development, and her so-lame-it's-cool costume and fighting style (she's like the offspring of Ryu and Nanoha, I swear). Her ep. 17 'zerk was fun but her final battle could have been better IMO. Gin drillhand is a laughable special technique, no points for beating that.
Nanoha for making the ending fun/moving. I tend to root against superpowered main characters in these kinds of shows, but Nanoha's just badass, and I thought her whole thing with Vivio in the end was about as well done as it could be for something as strange as a 20 year old magical girl/AF academy instructor fighting her daughter/clone of magical king jesus. Animation for the final battle was a lot better than for Signum and Fate too.
Runners up are Tea, who had character development and is an indispensable part of her duo with Subaru but was annoying, and Scaglietti, who played the mad scientist to the hilt, cliche amongst cliches, but whose overwrought voice and mannerisms amused me consistently. I also warmed up to Vita a lot this season. In A's Vita and Nanoha were just a sideshow to Signum and Fate IMO, but I liked her a lot in her capacity as Nanoha's XO, devoted to her commander but overbearing to her subordinates. I also thought her enforcer-style armor from her first scene was very sharp.
Bloodseeker
2007-10-18, 04:54
I also warmed up to Vita a lot this season. In A's Vita and Nanoha were just a sideshow to Signum and Fate IMO, but I liked her a lot in her capacity as Nanoha's XO, devoted to her commander but overbearing to her subordinates. I also thought her enforcer-style armor from her first scene was very sharp.
I don't know about liking the overbearing part, but I agree on the rest...
StrikerS Nanoha >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Nanoha
StrikerS Vita >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Vita
I liked Signum significantly less in StrikerS, though. She went from being a fairly close 4th favorite behind Fate, Arf, and Shamal to me liking about half of the cast (the Stars, the Aces, Ginga, Shamal, Rein, the better Numbers, Agito, Zest, and several others), more than her. Well, maybe she does something to make up for her general meh-ness/lameness in StrikerS in episodes 24-26... (I'm waiting for 26 to get subbed before I watch 24 and 25)
Demon Eyes
2007-10-18, 09:42
Fate T.H
It is fated
-MotokoAoyama-
2007-11-08, 18:18
I actually prefer the older Nanoha to the younger Nanoha as well. I love that White Devil scene in StrikerS
I've always liked Ginga, she reminds me of Chitose from Galaxy Angel in many ways. :)
ghazghkull
2007-11-15, 22:00
I'm just wondering, the rule for no campaigning...does that include Moe-contests? Because there's one that's pitting Yuki VS Fate that's happening tomorrow, so I'm wondering if that in particular is allowed.
Favorite characters are
Fate-chan: I have this unrelenting desire to protect her. She looks as cute as possible, and her demeanor compliments her features nicely. Not to mention that she is one of the best friends anyone could ever ask for. She puts their lives infront of her own, while dealing with her own traumatizing life. Never pitying herself or loathing, she bares it all while bringing a smile upon her friends faces. Both loli and Milf Fate are love and win. Including that hawt gothic loli battle suit and scythe she wields as a loli and Milf Feitos Riot Zamber form is.... :love:
Suffice to say, she is and will always be my favorite character from any anime.
Nanoha-san: She ofcourse, is also very cute. She doesn't quite reach terminal levels of cuteness like Feito, but she takes a solid place as my #2 favorite character. Her assertiveness and unwillingness to back down from a fight is what seperates her from other generic magical girls.
Vita: MSLN's lovely tsundere. The first season I only mildly liked her, but she really grew on me during Strikers. Wanting to protect Nanoha and willing to sacrifice her life for that very cause, was touching to say the least. Truly a great character which I won't soon forget.
Hayate: Poor Hayate was drastically shafted in Strikers, but that won't stop me from loving her. She wields massive amount of power and has one of the coolest looking battle suits ever.
I'm just wondering, the rule for no campaigning...does that include Moe-contests? Because there's one that's pitting Yuki VS Fate that's happening tomorrow, so I'm wondering if that in particular is allowed.
The header post is just referring to campaigning for votes in this threads particular character poll. I'm sure that mentioning Feitos match Vs Yuki Nagato tommorow is perfectly fine. I plan on voting for her, ofcourse. I also plan on letting everyone in the Nanoha Image thread know of the match when her match actually arrives. Must support and campaign for mai Goddess Feito-chan.^^
Here is the link for anyone who is interested.
http://moet.anizone.net/index.php?lang=eng
btw, are you ghazzy118 from Youtube?
ghazghkull
2007-11-15, 23:46
btw, are you ghazzy118 from Youtube?
Actually I am XD
Actually I am XD
ah, well that's ironic. Good to know you took up my offer when I sent you that message and even decided to campaign for her. I'm AlastorYagami from Youtube, the internet sure is a small place. :heh:
...to make sure we don't throw this thread off topic, p.m. me if you want to reply.
MedliSage
2007-11-16, 15:19
My favorite character would have to be Nanoha, of course. xD; I just love her personality and her kick butt battle skills... it's true, she is a god. :heh::bow:
I also put down Lutecia (though I've very upset we didn't get to see more development in her, I had such high hopes) and Vivio, for her unfathomable cuteness. :heh:
Now after voting, I realize I should have voted "other," Fate, and Vita. Since I love them, too. The other's for Agito, of course! :3 Vita's determination to protect Nanoha and Fate's kick butt Riot Zanber were just all win. And then Graf Eisen with DESCTRUCTION MODE! I was like omgwtf (in a good way). :heh:
ghazghkull
2007-11-17, 01:38
And then Graf Eisen with DESCTRUCTION MODE! I was like omgwtf (in a good way). :heh:
It's spelled Destruction Mode, and a few of my friends (figuratively) cummed in their pants when they saw it XD
Although mind you, all they saw was Graf Eisen transforming into that form XD
Well, my favorite character would definitely have to be Hayate. I really wish she got more screen time, especially since she didn't get much of a chance in A's until the end, but I can understand that they wanted to focus more on the new forwards. She's such a nice and caring person though, especially with the Wolkenritter in A's and then about Division Six. She really...reminds me of someone I'm close to.
Nanoha and Fate are really cool too, they do a very good job of taking care of the forwards and in A's trying to make friends with the Wolkenritter. Of course they started the whole series too, so can't forget that. xP
Nanoha also reminds me of a really great friend of mine. =D
Of my favorite people in StrikerS, it'd be Subaru at the later part of the series. She was kind of like, naive at first but she had some really good character development later to being able to go up against Ginga.
I dunno, it was hard to choose people after Hayate since they're all really cool for different reasons. :)
Yes. Hayate's time that appear in this series is much too short especially for the actions. Not too much actions for her in this series.
But glad that I like it. ;)
Fate is my favourite. :) No matter what. But I like this series also. Though not much better than the previous two. But it lead me to watch back the the two previous series.
It's spelled Destruction Mode, and a few of my friends (figuratively) cummed in their pants when they saw it XD
Although mind you, all they saw was Graf Eisen transforming into that form XD
Lol, I jumped out of my seat when I saw Fate in her new Sonic Form. :)
Yes. Hayate's time that appear in this series is much too short especially for the actions. Not too much actions for her in this series.
But glad that I like it. ;)
Fate is my favourite. :) No matter what. But I like this series also. Though not much better than the previous two. But it lead me to watch back the the two previous series.
I too was dissapointed with the lack of show time for Hayate. For me I love Fate, Nanoha and Signum but this season since there were new characters. I voted for Subaru alone because she reminds me of myself :heh:.
Oh yes, Fate with her new sonic form Really makes me fall off the chair. The insertion of the song makes it more amazing..... Really like that new outfit. ;)
arkhangelsk
2007-11-26, 10:49
Well, my favorite character would definitely have to be Hayate. I really wish she got more screen time, especially since she didn't get much of a chance in A's until the end, but I can understand that they wanted to focus more on the new forwards. She's such a nice and caring person though, especially with the Wolkenritter in A's and then about Division Six. She really...reminds me of someone I'm close to.
She not only didn't get screen time, she is remembered mostly for Character Assassination screen time. I should hope that someone you mention is not like Hayate as of StrikerS, or actually a few years leading up to StrikerS...
Frankly if they just didn't want to invest time in her they shouldn't have made her show up. It is perfectly possible, given her present position in the Nanoverse to be like Chrono, far, far away. Negative screen time does not please anyone.
Mirificus
2007-11-26, 18:34
She not only didn't get screen time, she is remembered mostly for Character Assassination screen time. I should hope that someone you mention is not like Hayate as of StrikerS, or actually a few years leading up to StrikerS...
What happened to Hayate in the years leading up to Strikers?
Frankly if they just didn't want to invest time in her they shouldn't have made her show up. It is perfectly possible, given her present position in the Nanoverse to be like Chrono, far, far away. Negative screen time does not please anyone.
To be fair, they did invest enough time to finish off their hatchet job. There really isn't any chance of rehabilitation without retconning all of Strikers.
arkhangelsk
2007-11-26, 19:08
What happened to Hayate in the years leading up to Strikers?
Not mentioned officially, but a veteran officer's performance is largely due to years of preparation, or lack thereof. Hayate's performance in StrikerS strongly implies she has failed completely to prepare in almost every respect for at least several years leading up to her commanding RF6, very likely even leading all the way back to her first day as an officer.
A good officer takes talent. A mediocre officer is effort. Hayate's performance is below mediocre. What does that say about Hayate.
As I once told Chaos, a person's or organization's chosen tactics onscreen reflect their values and competence. Thus, while people are used to giving slack to anime characters, horrible tactics is tantamount to character assassination.
Mirificus
2007-11-26, 19:55
Not mentioned officially, but a veteran officer's performance is largely due to years of preparation, or lack thereof. Hayate's performance in StrikerS strongly implies she has failed completely to prepare in almost every respect for at least several years leading up to her commanding RF6, very likely even leading all the way back to her first day as an officer.
A good officer takes talent. A mediocre officer is effort. Hayate's performance is below mediocre. What does that say about Hayate.
As I once told Chaos, a person's or organization's chosen tactics onscreen reflect their values and competence.
I agree with that completely. I've echoed similar thoughts in other threads. In Hayate's case, I would say that she has suffered from character assassination, as the negative portrayal is consistent, doesn't fit well with past portrayal and is clearly deliberate.
Thus, while people are used to giving slack to anime characters, horrible tactics is tantamount to character assassination.
I think that is going a bit far. There should be evidence of intent and malice on the writer's part before coming to that conclusion. Otherwise there is nothing to distinguish it from simple bad writing.
Take Nanoha for example. The writers seem to want to portray her as a great instructor, officer and tactician but all they've provided towards that end is hearsay. In Strikers, what I've actually seen on screen from Nanoha is a lot of poor leadership and tactics, where they exist at all, and the negative results of her instruction. Simple suspension of disbelief would lead me to conclude that Nanoha is a mediocre officer and trainer.
Has Nanoha had her character assassinated?
arkhangelsk
2007-11-27, 00:34
I agree with that completely. I've echoed similar thoughts in other threads. In Hayate's case, I would say that she has suffered from character assassination, as the negative portrayal is consistent, doesn't fit well with past portrayal and is clearly deliberate.
I think that is going a bit far. There should be evidence of intent and malice on the writer's part before coming to that conclusion. Otherwise there is nothing to distinguish it from simple bad writing.
Take Nanoha for example. The writers seem to want to portray her as a great instructor, officer and tactician but all they've provided towards that end is hearsay. In Strikers, what I've actually seen on screen from Nanoha is a lot of poor leadership and tactics, where they exist at all, and the negative results of her instruction. Simple suspension of disbelief would lead me to conclude that Nanoha is a mediocre officer and trainer.
Has Nanoha had her character assassinated?
As I said, because we understand that 1) anime producers are not (famous general here) reincarnate and 2) SoDwise, there may be some obscure factors affecting tactics that we don't know about, we tend to give their characters great slack before we jump to the Incompetent / Character Assassination conclusion. It is definitely an unhappy conclusion no one wants to make.
By your standard, you can't even say they character assassinated Hayate, since they did seem to want to portray her as a good, though budding (which is still wrong when one considers this is her 10th year in the paramilitary) commander - the fact that they kept portraying the inverse from about Ep7 on notwithstanding. Yet we both agree it is character assassination.
In Nanoha's case, it definitely wasn't flattering, but:
Duties as Instructor
1a) The canon shows effort.
1b) The canon shows no development in the level of tactical and moral-psychological training, but substantial improvements in combat skill equivalent to at least one full mage rank, as verified by enemy evaluation, results of mock combat and the real combat, which while sloppy (due to the lack of tactical and moral-psychological training) did end with their victory due to a mixture of luck and combat skill.
1c) The canon has described her experience, which implies that Nanoha probably has little experience (and thus readiness) to deal with her expanded responsibilities of Tactical (in the English, not Midchildran definition) and Moral-Psychological trainer.
1d) The conclusion is that Nanoha, pushed into a role that she was not properly qualified for, executed her task in the only way she knew how. She proved to be reasonably effective in the task she was experienced in, and the overall product, while hardly a success, proved marginally adequate to the task.
Duties as Commander
2a) Her daily responsibility to ensure the readiness of her subunit is arguably untenable due to Factor 1C and her extra duty as Instructor (which seems to take up most of her time). Fate is presumably in a similar situation due to her extra duty as Investigator.
2b) Her combat responsibility of troop control is complicated by both Factor 1C and the unrealistic unit organization which bears no resemblance to Operational reality, resulting in the near impossibility of positive troop control.
2c) Under the circumstances, the Subunit Commanders' (Fate and Nanoha) decision, after the first battle of the unit (Ep5), to create a new ad hoc ground squad organization and delegate control to the initiative of senior, most tactically competent member of their ground units for the duration of combat is probably correct.
Combatant
3a) In Ep5, Nanoha operated in accordance to the Concept of Battle of the Unit Commander commanding from the Command Post.
3b) In Ep7, Nanoha operated under the Direct Control of the Unit Commander commanding from a Command Observation Point.
3c) In Ep9, Nanoha operated in accordance to the Decision (made after conferring with staff) of the Unit Commander commanding from the Command Post.
3d) In Ep12, Nanoha operated under the Direct Control of the Unit Commander from a Command Observation Point.
3e) In Ep16-17, Nanoha operated under the failure of Troop Control due to the effective negligence of the troop control system by the Unit Commander.
3f) In Ep21-26, Nanoha operated under the supervision of the Unit Commander commanding from the Forward Command Point. The poor decision to split up is at the strong insistence of her subunit's deputy commander, in accordance to the Concept of Battle of her Unit Commander (as well as what passes for TSAB Doctrine), and not overriden by the supervising Unit Commander.
Responsibility
1a) The responsibility for selecting Nanoha for the job of Instructor, despite the requirements and reality of Factor 1C, is the responsibility of the Unit Commander, who apparently was given wide powers to select the optimum personnel.
1b) Alternatively, the selection of Nanoha for the job of Instructor may be adequate if the Unit Commander spends some time on Commander's and Tactical Training to complement the instructor's limitations. This was not done, perhaps because the Unit Commander feels it un-necessary or worse, perhaps because she lacks the ability and/or confidence to do so.
1c) The cause is likely due to assuming Tactics (戦術) = Martial/Combat Skills (戦技), an assumption probably prompted by the Midchildran lexicon (see Nanoha's ID card and compare to Japanese), but nevertheless ignorant and indicative of a poor level of professional developmen on the part of the Unit Commander.
2) The responsibility for 2A (overtasking) 2B (unrealistic unit organization), lies with the Unit Commander. As the person who proposed the very concept of the unit, she has wide influence in the organization of the unit to avoid such problems. This shows a poor understanding of the workloads involved in the various duties, or the capabilities and proper employment of various units.
3) I suppose the responsibility in all of 3 is obvious.Conclusion: Nanoha was (mostly) not character-assassinated. Nanoha knows that she's not a very good commander or investigator - in fact she says she doesn't have a lot of "special talents" (tokugi) in the pre Striker-S Sound Stage M, to the instant protest of her friends but in retrospect Nanoha knows herself better than the other two know themselves. That she did not succeed brilliantly when pushed out of her limitations and experience, which she is at least partially aware of (I like to think of that as one of the reasons she refused the promotion to 3rd Air Commander), is not exactly character assassination, but arguably character development (the addition of character flaws or limitations is not necessary an assassination).
Mirificus
2007-11-27, 10:03
As I said, because we understand that 1) anime producers are not (famous general here) reincarnate and 2) SoDwise, there may be some obscure factors affecting tactics that we don't know about, we tend to give their characters great slack before we jump to the Incompetent / Character Assassination conclusion. It is definitely an unhappy conclusion no one wants to make.
By your standard, you can't even say they character assassinated Hayate, since they did seem to want to portray her as a good, though budding (which is still wrong when one considers this is her 10th year in the paramilitary) commander - the fact that they kept portraying the inverse from about Ep7 on notwithstanding. Yet we both agree it is character assassination.
That would make sense if their intent remained static but it hasn't. By a certain stage, it becomes clear that their intent is to portray her in a negative manner (when she shows up at all), inconsistent with her earlier portrayal. The malice becomes apparent because not only is the portrayal consistently negative, much of it conflicts with earlier treatment of the character. Episode 7 onwards is more than 3/4 of the episodes.
The manga makes Hayate look even worse. Contrary to her previous work ethic, it establishes her complete dismissal of close combat and physical training. The only time the writers have broken from that pattern is when Hayate is fighting inside the Cradle. Even then, she is only able to fight with Reinforce's help and then they end up becoming two extra bodies to rescue.
In Nanoha's case, it definitely wasn't flattering, but:
Duties as Instructor
1a) The canon shows effort.
1b) The canon shows no development in the level of tactical and moral-psychological training, but substantial improvements in combat skill equivalent to at least one full mage rank, as verified by enemy evaluation, results of mock combat and the real combat, which while sloppy (due to the lack of tactical and moral-psychological training) did end with their victory due to a mixture of luck and combat skill.
1c) The canon has described her experience, which implies that Nanoha probably has little experience (and thus readiness) to deal with her expanded responsibilities of Tactical (in the English, not Midchildran definition) and Moral-Psychological trainer.
1d) The conclusion is that Nanoha, pushed into a role that she was not properly qualified for, executed her task in the only way she knew how. She proved to be reasonably effective in the task she was experienced in, and the overall product, while hardly a success, proved marginally adequate to the task.
Duties as Commander
2a) Her daily responsibility to ensure the readiness of her subunit is arguably untenable due to Factor 1C and her extra duty as Instructor (which seems to take up most of her time). Fate is presumably in a similar situation due to her extra duty as Investigator.
2b) Her combat responsibility of troop control is complicated by both Factor 1C and the unrealistic unit organization which bears no resemblance to Operational reality, resulting in the near impossibility of positive troop control.
2c) Under the circumstances, the Subunit Commanders' (Fate and Nanoha) decision, after the first battle of the unit (Ep5), to create a new ad hoc ground squad organization and delegate control to the initiative of senior, most tactically competent member of their ground units for the duration of combat is probably correct.
Combatant
3a) In Ep5, Nanoha operated in accordance to the Concept of Battle of the Unit Commander commanding from the Command Post.
3b) In Ep7, Nanoha operated under the Direct Control of the Unit Commander commanding from a Command Observation Point.
3c) In Ep9, Nanoha operated in accordance to the Decision (made after conferring with staff) of the Unit Commander commanding from the Command Post.
3d) In Ep12, Nanoha operated under the Direct Control of the Unit Commander from a Command Observation Point.
3e) In Ep16-17, Nanoha operated under the failure of Troop Control due to the effective negligence of the troop control system by the Unit Commander.
3f) In Ep21-26, Nanoha operated under the supervision of the Unit Commander commanding from the Forward Command Point. The poor decision to split up is at the strong insistence of her subunit's deputy commander, in accordance to the Concept of Battle of her Unit Commander (as well as what passes for TSAB Doctrine), and not overriden by the supervising Unit Commander.
Responsibility
1a) The responsibility for selecting Nanoha for the job of Instructor, despite the requirements and reality of Factor 1C, is the responsibility of the Unit Commander, who apparently was given wide powers to select the optimum personnel.
1b) Alternatively, the selection of Nanoha for the job of Instructor may be adequate if the Unit Commander spends some time on Commander's and Tactical Training to complement the instructor's limitations. This was not done, perhaps because the Unit Commander feels it un-necessary or worse, perhaps because she lacks the ability and/or confidence to do so.
1c) The cause is likely due to assuming Tactics (戦術) = Martial/Combat Skills (戦技), an assumption probably prompted by the Midchildran lexicon (see Nanoha's ID card and compare to Japanese), but nevertheless ignorant and indicative of a poor level of professional developmen on the part of the Unit Commander.
2) The responsibility for 2A (overtasking) 2B (unrealistic unit organization), lies with the Unit Commander. As the person who proposed the very concept of the unit, she has wide influence in the organization of the unit to avoid such problems. This shows a poor understanding of the workloads involved in the various duties, or the capabilities and proper employment of various units.
3) I suppose the responsibility in all of 3 is obvious.Conclusion: Nanoha was (mostly) not character-assassinated. Nanoha knows that she's not a very good commander or investigator - in fact she says she doesn't have a lot of "special talents" (tokugi) in the pre Striker-S Sound Stage M, to the instant protest of her friends but in retrospect Nanoha knows herself better than the other two know themselves. That she did not succeed brilliantly when pushed out of her limitations and experience, which she is at least partially aware of (I like to think of that as one of the reasons she refused the promotion to 3rd Air Commander), is not exactly character assassination, but arguably character development
What does "mostly not character assassinated mean"?
(the addition of character flaws or limitations is not necessary an assassination).
Of course. That is why it is important to establish intent and malice.
Evil Rick
2007-12-05, 03:14
Hi every body, my name is Evil Rick and I am new here (This is the first foro I belong. How exiting!)
Errr... you will have to escuse my english, I am mexican so it isn't very good. Ja, ja, ja!!
Well, well let's see, my favorite characters from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Series, that's easy.
Vita!!! She is so cute and so rudness tath I just can't ignore here, is like say"Hey! I have a pretty face but spoildme and I Gonna kick your but!" Oh! yeha, also I like Fate, Nanoha, Vivio and the cyberbots Nº 5 & 10... but I like more Vita!
Thank's and seeyou soon!!!
EternalNite
2007-12-07, 13:30
Nanoha,Fate,Hayate,Vivio,Vita,Signum,Erio,Caro,Sub aru,Teena,Ginga,Rein
Will tt b ok??!
Liddo-kun
2008-01-04, 20:15
Most fav. character:
Vita Yagami - for what she did on episode 25 of StrikerS.
Others:
Fate Harlaown
Lutecia Alpino
Jail Scaglietti
Most fav. character:
Vita Yagami - for what she did on episode 25 of StrikerS.
Others:
Fate Harlaown
Lutecia Alpino
Jail Scaglietti
I sense another Vita supporter.... :p
I kind of like her when she appeared in A's.... Even though she seems rational at times, but kinda cute little girl.... And the VA is one of my favourite too.... Nice Combination. Yeah ! :D
Liddo-kun
2008-01-09, 06:17
I sense another Vita supporter.... :p
I kind of like her when she appeared in A's.... Even though she seems rational at times, but kinda cute little girl.... And the VA is one of my favourite too.... Nice Combination. Yeah ! :D
You're not mistaken. :heh:
I won't forget her expression in A's when Hayate bought the rabbit stuffed toy for her.
Even though Vita is a warrior, she's still a little girl deep inside. So cute. ^-^
Evil Rick
2008-01-17, 01:52
You're not mistaken. :heh:
I won't forget her expression in A's when Hayate bought the rabbit stuffed toy for her.
Even though Vita is a warrior, she's still a little girl deep inside. So cute. ^-^
Like I said: Cute + Rude = :D:bow::D:bow::D:bow:
Tat's why I love her :love:
Triple_R
2008-01-29, 19:33
With "you can choose mutliple characters" votes like these, I try to round it down to my top three, unless there's one character that's head and shoulders above the rest for me (which usually isn't the case). I liked all of the main characters - I liked all of the characters listed by name in the voting options - but three stood out for me the most.
So, I voted for Nanoha, Fate, and Jail Scaglietti.
Nanoha and Fate are just extremely cool heros. I like the chemistry between them, and their personalities, and the seriousness with which they approach the enemies and missions put before them. Their costumes are also gorgeous.
Jail Scaglietti is simply the best antagonist, imo, that the Nanoha series has ever had, with only Precia Testarossa even coming close. He added a lot of fun, spice, and pizazz to everything in Striker S. When he was on screen, you just knew that you were in for a good time.
She-Chan
2008-02-10, 09:43
I've voted for all of them because I am in a good mode today
Setsuna fan
2008-02-11, 07:01
Fate:she is cool
Nanoha:very kind person
Hayate:funny and smart
Reinforce Zwei:cute and funny
Lutecia:calm
fate, vita, signum, and rein zwei.
nanoha and tiana is cool, but i don't like them enough to put them up.
vivio is cute, but same with her as the others.
erio is just too...... he doesn't have enough character.
if i were to rate the characters based on only StrikerS, then hayate does not fit the bill.
the rest are fine, but not good enough to vote for.
as far as jail spagetti is concerned, he is just a second rate bad guy with zero imagination, and a really bad name.
Seconded on bad name. :heh:
Nei Tsukishime
2008-03-21, 18:20
If refering to StrikerS only - Teana and the Numbers :D
Evil Rick
2008-03-26, 01:29
If refering to StrikerS only - Teana and the Numbers :D
Ginga too?
She was trated as a number in an episode of StrikerS :confused:
Nei Tsukishime
2008-03-28, 11:20
Nah, actually, Ginga is a character I don't quite like...
Wow... Fate still in the lead.... Nice . :)
Ever since the Nanoha 1st season series, she has always been the most popular character.
Enraptured
2008-04-03, 10:02
xD FATE, FATE and FATE.
Reason?
You do -not- want me to start, or I'll just go on and on and on. :D
Mysterious past, beautiful red eyes, pretty hair, killer Bardiche Assault, emo memories, hot barrier jacket, sweet and adorable moments make Fate full of win!
Other than her, Signum.
Baddass attitude, close combat, calm and tough and you get the drift (:
Arr, awesome that Fate's still in the lead for all three seasons! <3
You go, Feito-chan!
I vote for Fate because she is the best ^^
others I like too: hayate, nanoha and rein
Fate T Harlaown
2008-06-21, 16:27
Do I even have to state the name of my fav character :rolleyes:...see the avy and sig and you'll get the answer ('(00)').
My favorite male character in the other hand is....Chrono >_0
Captain Picard
2008-06-23, 10:58
Honestly, the only character who managed to avoid annoying me in some way was Quattro, who had better somehow come back.
Before the finale started I would have voted for Jail, but he picked up one of the most epic Villain Balls ever. I mean, what kind of idiot sends two people to guard the ship on which your entire plan hinges? Everyone should have been on that thing, since there's nothing the Ground HQ can do once it can be annihilated from orbit, and there was absolutely no purpose on staying in that base. Furthermore, if you've got a way to reincarnate yourself, don't put all your sources of reincarnation in the same battle. Jail should have had dozens of dormant or undercover Numbers scattered throughout the known universe.
Quattro got owned, sure, but she was making do the best she could considering how much of a massive idiot Jail was for putting only her and Deici on the ship. In my opinion, she more or less took over the mantle of main villain once Jail proved too dumb to live.
Raging Heart
2008-06-24, 07:57
Lets see: Fate, Nanoha, Hayate, the knights, Arf and Vivio, Caro and Eiro, Rein, Teana, Subaru.
TheShinySword
2008-06-24, 11:32
ZAFIRA!
...
Why?
Cause he's awesome. And he deserves props for being the only male Wolkenritter (and for the things he must go through).
So I vote other and wonder why there are no male characters other than Jail on the poll.
(I also vote for Signum, Vita and Hayate)
AtomicoX
2008-06-24, 11:38
Vita.
Just simply because I don't think anyone have a better outfit than her. Ok, maybe Fate but facts still go: Dresses on lolis are kawaii and should be implemented everywhere :3
Oh and being tsundere isn't wrong either.
Vita is more psycho moe than tsundere I reckon... :uhoh:
Fate. If I only had a single vote it would have gone to her reflexively. However, as one could choose more than one character, I also selected Nanoha, whom is my second favourite - despite her indecisive reaction to, and uncertain reciprocation of Fate's feelings.
I am unsurprised Fate leads in the poll; interesting character, pitiful origins (effective genetic experiment), lonely childhood, unconventional upbringing and subsequent alienation from peers, sheer raw magical power greater than even Nanoha, and an enduring and undeniable infatuation with Nanoha - to whatever ends that may be in part speculated, and in part very obviously suggested. All very endearing qualities for most, I think.
AtomicoX
2008-06-25, 04:57
Vita is more psycho moe than tsundere I reckon... :uhoh:
Hmm...now that I think about it that IS a more fitting description :heh:
Blue-Phoenix
2008-07-17, 21:03
Subaru and Vita!
Subaru because of her wierd, yet awesome abilites and the fact that she is a closet perv. (Come on how many times did she molest Tia?)
Vita because she is just so darn cute! Even with her giant device she makes your face burn with a kawii blush.
i Chose Fate Tesstarossa Whoo shes so damm cool ^^v
and Subaru because of the surprizing Berserk mode in Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS Episode 17
Fate, Nanoha, Hayate, Signum, Vita, Reinforce, Caro, Teana. My top is Nanoha though :)
dragoncrusher
2008-07-30, 18:24
i vote for nanoha ^^ cause shes the white devil ^^
1980sDarkness1990s
2008-08-25, 12:18
Will always be Nanoha Takamachi. :kisskiss:
Fate, Ginga and Hayate. And probably Nanoha. AFAIK I have voted for them ^^;;
Vivio Testarossa
2008-08-27, 22:42
I voted for everyone except Jail. Although LOLI Feito, Nanoha... would be better
:topicoff: Not that many people like Jail it seems by the poll..
Well, he was almost the perfect villain, until he did his insane boss gig. Seriously, if you wanna be insane, be Heath Ledger! :(
Seraph42
2008-08-28, 10:23
Voted for Fate (she's my favorite ) and Nanoha, Naturally of course :D.
Voted for Jail 'cause how can you not like crazy people ( They're Fun to mess with :p ), If only they gave him something like a Flamethrower and him using it alot :heh:
Also voted for Ginga, I just like her.
Elio and Ginga.
Elio because he's the only shouta around. And I like Strada a lot.
Ginga because I've always liked sisterly characters. Ito Shizuka could have voiced her instead of Shari though...
Kazuya Shiranami
2008-08-29, 20:03
teana, well i like her because she has a strong personality and i like that
I liked the majority of the cast, but if I have to settle on favourites, it would still bve Nanoha, Fate, Hayate and Rein.
But then I thought again, I should have voted for Vita as well, being a total homage to Gaogaigar. She even fought against Pascubes.
EternalMelody
2008-09-17, 14:14
Fate and Signum.
Big swords FTW.
Nanoha is also a good character. I liked it when she was angry at Teana during the mock battle. She looked so miserably poor there that I felt like comforting her.
9taileddemon
2008-10-08, 23:08
Hmm. My favorite by far is Hayate.
Especially after reading the soundstage translations and seeing how she is always making jokes and wanting to sexually harass all of the girls in her harem... I mean Riot Force 6. cough
Vita gets a point for her final battles in Strikers and her funny relationship with Nanoha.
Nanoha for her befriending Magical Cannon Girl ways. HEEE HEEE.
Jail because he has been the only real villain this whole time. The other ones were just people that took love way to far. Precia, Hayate's Knights. Reinforce. Jail though was the awesome, cool, casual, mad scientist.
Caro and Reinforce because they are so cute!!!
Erio also gets one because his relationship with Caro is cute and because he is the only male person in the show who has not been super abused. Yet.
However if I could add somebody it would be Cinque. My favorite of the numbers by far. Cute. Strong. Kind. Too bad she gets so little screentime. GRR
Evil Rick
2008-10-11, 19:59
Well, he was almost the perfect villain, until he did his insane boss gig. Seriously, if you wanna be insane, be Heath Ledger! :(
Could be? I think he was not even close :eyespin:
Heather Ledger? Why so Serious?! :D
RadiantBeam
2008-10-12, 18:33
My favorites, in no paticular order:
Fate
Nanoha
Vita
Vivio
Subaru
Ginga
Teana
Jail
I don't feel like posting my reasons yet, but I will eventually. :P
TerranReaper
2008-10-17, 04:39
I'm surprised that Jail has his supporters.
*takes a rifle to shoot Jail*
I would support Jail if he had been a better villain, ie, smarter and less insane. Brainy evils are worth supporting. :D
TerranReaper
2008-10-17, 09:02
I would support Jail if he had been a better villain, ie, smarter and less insane. Brainy evils are worth supporting. :D
Good point
GingaSubaru
2008-10-17, 09:05
Good point
Really? LOL, i dont think so
Evil Rick
2008-10-17, 10:13
I would support Jail if he had been a better villain, ie, smarter and less insane. Brainy evils are worth supporting. :D
Man, Jail was more like a bad atempt to imitate the Joker (and the Joker is an epic villan)
The thing who disgusted me about Jail, was the fact that he hasn't any backlog, motivations or story, the mad villan who only wants to destroy the world doesn't works on these days :frustrated:
Good point
Really? LOL, i dont think so
A sugestion guys, when you say things like those, try to explain your motives to backup your arguments ;)
Chaos2Frozen
2008-10-17, 10:53
Though if the plotlines could be tweaked again, having Erio go against Lutecia/Zest during the hotel incident would kickstart the Lutecia/Erio/Caro angle earlier even if it means having Erio banged up badly against the powerhouses.
Oh nonono, nothing that long term :heh:
Simple moments in combat that really showcase his speed and lightning abilities that he's so credited for. Remember good old Rurouni Kenshin? Yeah stuff like that...
"You're fast Yeerk Garyuu, but I'm faster."
TerranReaper
2008-10-17, 10:55
Jail is just your typical villain and that psycho certainly has issues. but the main reason i resent him is because he is just too plain as you said. now will you excuse me, I'm gonna shoot jail again
Evil Rick
2008-10-17, 11:42
Jail is just your typical villain and that psycho certainly has issues. but the main reason i resent him is because he is just too plain as you said. now will you excuse me, I'm gonna shoot jail again
"Hand over Cartridge to TerranReaper"
Aim between the legs please :D :p
9taileddemon
2008-10-17, 18:49
Man, Jail was more like a bad atempt to imitate the Joker (and the Joker is an epic villan)
The thing who disgusted me about Jail, was the fact that he hasn't any backlog, motivations or story, the mad villan who only wants to destroy the world doesn't works on these days :frustrated:
Actually they do give an explanation for him don't they? He was created by the TSAB leaders as a clone of a person who lived back when Al Hazard was around. They wanted him to go and make the artifical mages and combat cyborgs so that the TSAB could get a stronger military force. They branded him a villain so that the research could still be done without the TSAB getting in trouble for their breaking their own rules.
However, to make sure that he followed orders, they went and developed him with infinite ambition. They hoped this would keep him busy until he had an amazingly powerful force. However, his ambition became so great that he did not want to follow their rules any more and instead wished to create whole worlds for his research. He basically wanted his research to change the entire universe.
Since the TSAB was still the police force of the universe he searched for a way to get rid of them. He found the Cradle and then set forth his entire plan with making his own force of Combat Cyborgs, creating Vivio, awakening the Cradle, then CONQUER!!!
That is what I understood about Jail from the anime. Correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure that I have this basicallly correct.
Is that enough backstory?
Evil Rick
2008-10-18, 01:42
Actually they do give an explanation for him don't they? He was created by the TSAB leaders as a clone of a person who lived back when Al Hazard was around. They wanted him to go and make the artifical mages and combat cyborgs so that the TSAB could get a stronger military force. They branded him a villain so that the research could still be done without the TSAB getting in trouble for their breaking their own rules.
However, to make sure that he followed orders, they went and developed him with infinite ambition. They hoped this would keep him busy until he had an amazingly powerful force. However, his ambition became so great that he did not want to follow their rules any more and instead wished to create whole worlds for his research. He basically wanted his research to change the entire universe.
Since the TSAB was still the police force of the universe he searched for a way to get rid of them. He found the Cradle and then set forth his entire plan with making his own force of Combat Cyborgs, creating Vivio, awakening the Cradle, then CONQUER!!!
That is what I understood about Jail from the anime. Correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure that I have this basicallly correct.
Is that enough backstory?
Perhaps, I admit that you helped me to understeand StrikerS a lot with this explication (althoug I do not remember it from the anime, it was probably some of the many times I falled asleep watching it) you deserv some cookies for that ;)
So, if Jail is a "clone" from some guy and these brains wanted him to create an army of Artificial mages, it means that 7arcs complicated themselves with the plot more than I espected :heh:
I mean, wouldn't be more easier to make the investigation on the artificial mages by themselves?! Do they really needed a "clone" to make the research? Plus, if these "brains" were so brillant, the idea of making a subordinate with "infinite ambition" doesn't sounds like a good idea, couldn't they just make him 100% loyal to them? And if the brains were the TSAB leaders, couldn't they use their influence to make the research without the police getting involved? You know? They could make a corrupted TSAB, mafia :heh:
But still, even with the things cleared, Jail still is far away of been a "decent antagonist" (personally I think that Quattro was better villan than him)
I still think that Jail is notting more than a poor try to imitate the phsyco villan The Joker :rolleyes:
Chaos2Frozen
2008-10-18, 01:50
I still think that Jail is notting more than a poor try to imitate the phsyco villan The Joker :rolleyes:
Why the Joker :confused: ?
I don't recall any remote similiarities that would point to the Joker.
Evil Rick
2008-10-18, 02:02
Why the Joker :confused: ?
I don't recall any remote similiarities that would point to the Joker.
The fact of Jail tring to be phsyco, the long seasons of "Evil Laughs"
His intention to destroy everything with the Cradle, no matter that he could die also, his stupid crazy smile (in the Joker is not stupid, is evil XP) And they even look somehow similars in aspect
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/1496/jokerjailcz9.jpg
The fact of Jail tring to be phsyco, the long seasons of "Evil Laughs"
His intention to destroy everything with the Cradle, no matter that he could die also, his stupid crazy smile (in the Joker is not stupid, is evil XP) And they even look somehow similars in aspect
I'm not sure about Jail trying to play psycho but he does laugh evilly sometimes. Which is quite common among villian characters.
First off, Jail's primary intention was to have a space where he could conduct his research freely. He tried that with the Cradle, whereby once it reaches orbit he could hold everyone on Mid-Childa hostage.
Disregarding the physical similarities (which I don't see much of), the two characters' motivations are completely different. Jail is a man of ambitions which is why we see him do so much ie Numbers, Relic weapons, artificial mage aka Vivio, making gadget drones, collecting Relics and then resurrecting the Saint King and the Cradle, at the same time implanting his insurances into the Numbers.
While I admit I do not know the Joker's history as well, if the Dark Knight was anything to go by to accurately portray a successful long-running villian like the Joker, he does not have "plans". The Joker doesn't care about money, he terrorizes the city for laugh and kicks with "social experiments", just to sow mass chaos and see how people react.
Compare to Jail who has so much more plans to future his own cause, I really don't see how the slightly-nutty scientist is in anyway an imitation to the purple clown.
Evil Rick
2008-10-18, 02:51
I'm not sure about Jail trying to play psycho but he does laugh evilly sometimes. Which is quite common among villian characters.
First off, Jail's primary intention was to have a space where he could conduct his research freely. He tried that with the Cradle, whereby once it reaches orbit he could hold everyone on Mid-Childa hostage.
Disregarding the physical similarities (which I don't see much of), the two characters' motivations are completely different. Jail is a man of ambitions which is why we see him do so much ie Numbers, Relic weapons, artificial mage aka Vivio, making gadget drones, collecting Relics and then resurrecting the Saint King and the Cradle, at the same time implanting his insurances into the Numbers.
While I admit I do not know the Joker's history as well, if the Dark Knight was anything to go by to accurately portray a successful long-running villian like the Joker, he does not have "plans". The Joker doesn't care about money, he terrorizes the city for laugh and kicks with "social experiments", just to sow mass chaos and see how people react.
Compare to Jail who has so much more plans to future his own cause, I really don't see how the slightly-nutty scientist is in anyway an imitation to the purple clown.
Well, I'm not very good remembering exactly details but In StrikerS I never senced the true intentions of Jail, never
Fist we have his gadgets and the numbers tring to get some lost logia, then we have Vivio, then the destruction of 6, then we have the Cradle, I was really confused, it seemed that Jail was just the usuall Phsyco cientist who wants to destroy the world :eyespin:
Now, yeah, probably I exagerated a bit comparing Jail with the Joker :heh:
You can't balem me, the Joker is my all time favourite villan :naughty:
t6SYs8S2bbE
9taileddemon
2008-10-19, 02:08
Well the joker is pretty freaking awesome. I believe he may indeed be the greatest villain ever.
He is like the embodiment of anarchy and chaos. Which makes him awesome.
Jail however actually did have goals and reasons for why he was doing stuff besides "Chaos is fun" Too bad they were not presented as well as they could have been. Stuff it in the barrel of other things that made the series not as good as it could have been.
K.... I haven't finished watching this series but so far I gotta say.... Reinforce Zwei IS just precious :) .... also Nanoha went wayyyy up in ranking (at least for me) when she blasted Teana Lanster during the first mock fight ....... gosh I loved that part..... I'll keep on watching and report back.... but so far Reinforce Zwei cuteness will be hard to top.... the only thing that would change my mind is if Nanoha becomes some sort of killer (very unlikely to happpen)....
XenahortCharybdis
2008-10-21, 23:48
Nanoha never kills.
Nanoha only befriends.
(Just that it hurts a lot)
Remember that ;)
k.... so just finished watching Nanoha and gotta say..... I stand my ground on Zwei being one of my fave characters and I add Signum + Agito ..........and ..........Vivio + the 2 mamas (Nanoha and Fate) ..... that was just precious
Good anime but as always a bit shallow on the story dept .....
Fate..by like millions & billions of light years.
KimmyChan
2009-03-27, 07:49
My favourite character is Nanoha Takamachi of those listed - She's great :)
Yurichan
2009-03-29, 13:16
fate and nanoha~
Evil Rick
2009-04-03, 02:46
What I maen is that Nanoha has not darker aspects in her personality (only her idea of making friends) because since season 1 she appeared having a perfect live, sided by a perfect personality who really made her look quite unreal and hard to identify with.
In the other hand, Fate appeared showing really strong emotions in terms of her relation with her mother (If you analyse, this could be a similar case in many families) so, Fate looked more "human", more people could dentify with her so, she was more popular than Nanoha, and could steal the show from Nanoha if not for the so plane that she looked on StrikerS
Moved from the Q&A thread to avoid of topicness
What I maen is that Nanoha has not darker aspects in her personality (only her idea of making friends) because since season 1 she appeared having a perfect live, sided by a perfect personality who really made her look quite unreal and hard to identify with.
In the other hand, Fate appeared showing really strong emotions in terms of her relation with her mother (If you analyse, this could be a similar case in many families) so, Fate looked more "human", more people could dentify with her so, she was more popular than Nanoha, and could steal the show from Nanoha if not for the so plane that she looked on StrikerS
I find it far more easy to identify myself with Nanoha, to be honest. Considering I pretty much have a perfectly happy life. If anything, Nanoha leading a normal life would make her far better to relate to then Fate's dark one, as I don't imagine many of the people watching Nanoha having been tortured by their parents.
But this has very little to do with personality. As I said, I know Fate has a darker background, but her personality is as saintly and flawless as Nanoha's. Examples in case: Forgiving her mother after a long period of torture, selflessly trying to take care of lonely children, and so on.
I personally think Fate's popularity has more to do with her being a shy-moe. Shy-moes tend to be very popular, and unlike most shy-moes, Fate is one that is also actually useful (unlike shy-moes like Miyazaki Nodoka, who only serves an occasional purpose, or Hyuuga Hinata, who hardly ever serves a purpose at all).
Shy-moe + kickass = Deadly Combination.
... Which, conversely, explains why unlike many I don't really like Fate that much. I'm not a fan of shy-moes. Never have been.
MeisterBabylon
2009-04-03, 04:37
And good thing too. The 3 Aces of Outercadia would've never been born otherwise! :nod:
DezoPenguin
2009-04-03, 20:45
I personally think Fate's popularity has more to do with her being a shy-moe. Shy-moes tend to be very popular, and unlike most shy-moes, Fate is one that is also actually useful (unlike shy-moes like Miyazaki Nodoka, who only serves an occasional purpose, or Hyuuga Hinata, who hardly ever serves a purpose at all).
Shy-moe + kickass = Deadly Combination.
... Which, conversely, explains why unlike many I don't really like Fate that much. I'm not a fan of shy-moes. Never have been.
*drops head to desk*
Oh, God, I've become a moe fan without realizing it. Oh, sure, there are other reasons why the red-eyed, black-wearing, scythe-wielding mage is cool...
...but considering that my second-favorite MGLN character is Vivio, of all people...
*is clearly doomed*
Actually, one thing I really like about Fate is that all of her positive traits are direct responses to her background--that she absolutely doesn't want anyone to go through what she has, which is why she does what she does. Her relationship with her mother, even through her abuse, is actually pretty well spot-on for a nine-year-old in an abusive family; the fact that her reactions hit too close to home is one reason why my wife is really uncomfortable watching Season 1, so that's an impression of Fate's personality from someone who's been there.
This is in contrast to Nanoha, who is surrounded by a loving family and close friends. Yes, she definitely had neglect issues for a few years while her father was recovering, but she was never forced to do without or suffered genuine hardship, yet out of that she develops a level of self-sufficiency and maturity at age 9 that most adults would kill to have, and a sense of responsibility that basically amounts to "do everything I possibly can for others regardless of the cost to myself." Her "with great power comes great responsibility" moment (MGLN Ep. 3, which is as directly cribbed off the Spider-Man origin story as anything I've ever seen), basically consists of saying a nine-year-old-child can't take a couple of minutes to have tea and cake with her friends because it might lead to Something Bad Happening. And while she apparently wises up to some extent because she tries very hard to hammer home to Teana that such an attitude is improper and self-destructive, it just as clearly doesn't apply to herself.
Hopefully the individual responsibilities of motherhood will help teach Nanoha that there's something more important than the generalized responsibilities of saving the human race, but until then I can't really find her particularly likeable...which is why she can't even crack my top ten favorite characters in her own show.
Hm, well, I like Fate the most for a variety of reasons. My immediate impression of her was "damn, this girl looks cool," which slowly lead to sympathy and then an overwhelming urge to kill Precia myself in order to protect her. The continuation of her development did not disappoint either as she slowly learned how to make friends and enjoy life just as every child should have the right to do. Her reactions to daily life events where spot on and just outright adorable. And her strong will to uphold justice is also a selling point, as she can go from cute to downright awesome the moment she puts on that barrier jacket. StrikerS gave a whole new view of Fate and her "motherly" side, which really, only aided in my liking her even more... Lastly, I absolutely love the way she looks.
tl;dr - Fate was tailored to meet my every expectation of what a mahou shoujo should be like.:heh:
Sassy_Bread
2009-04-03, 23:48
Actually, one thing I really like about Fate is that all of her positive traits are direct responses to her background--that she absolutely doesn't want anyone to go through what she has, which is why she does what she does. Her relationship with her mother, even through her abuse, is actually pretty well spot-on for a nine-year-old in an abusive family; the fact that her reactions hit too close to home is one reason why my wife is really uncomfortable watching Season 1, so that's an impression of Fate's personality from someone who's been there.
This is in contrast to Nanoha, who is surrounded by a loving family and close friends. Yes, she definitely had neglect issues for a few years while her father was recovering, but she was never forced to do without or suffered genuine hardship, yet out of that she develops a level of self-sufficiency and maturity at age 9 that most adults would kill to have, and a sense of responsibility that basically amounts to "do everything I possibly can for others regardless of the cost to myself." Her "with great power comes great responsibility" moment (MGLN Ep. 3, which is as directly cribbed off the Spider-Man origin story as anything I've ever seen), basically consists of saying a nine-year-old-child can't take a couple of minutes to have tea and cake with her friends because it might lead to Something Bad Happening. And while she apparently wises up to some extent because she tries very hard to hammer home to Teana that such an attitude is improper and self-destructive, it just as clearly doesn't apply to herself.
Hopefully the individual responsibilities of motherhood will help teach Nanoha that there's something more important than the generalized responsibilities of saving the human race, but until then I can't really find her particularly likeable...which is why she can't even crack my top ten favorite characters in her own show.
Agreed. At least with Fate, there's a reasonable reason why Fate acts the way she acts. When taking care of tons of kids, it comes from the fact that she suffered under child abuse for a pretty long time (I think). Her behaviors and personality at least come from somewhere and are somewhat shaped by her past.
As for her being shy, it's most likely in her nature, or that she perhaps never really learned to properly interact with people until later on in life (for lack of a better way of wording this). To tell you the truth, if the only person you interact with is your familiar and a "mother" who abuses you constantly, that's a pretty unhealthy environment in which to interact with people. And it's most likely she kept to herself even if she was on Earth to look for the Jewel Seeds and had to survive.
As for Nanoha...to me she doesn't seem like a normal nine year old girl. Sure, she was neglected for a bit when she was small, but if she was left alone in the house for an amount of time, she at least know how to do household activities by herself. But for her to have a wisdom of a 70 year old built in is quite unreasonable. She has not learned any life lessons for the nine years she's lived safely with her family, she has not been under any severe suffering (unlike Fate, Hayate, and the four fowards), and so on and so forth? In my opinion, her insight comes from nowhere. This, and that somehow whatever she does is taken as divine and that she somehow cannot do wrong are the reasons why I really dislike Nanoha. This probably won't even change even when she learns life lessons from being a mother.
*drops head to desk*
Oh, God, I've become a moe fan without realizing it. Oh, sure, there are other reasons why the red-eyed, black-wearing, scythe-wielding mage is cool...
...but considering that my second-favorite MGLN character is Vivio, of all people...
*is clearly doomed*
Hey, you think you have it bad? My favorite characters constantly battling for first place are Nanoha and Vivio. And while Vivio is excused because I like her background and more mature post-StrikerS version more then the moe-blob, I have not even the slightest clue why I like Nanoha so much. :eyespin:
Anyway, I agree that there is no small amount of surrealism in Nanoha's motivations. I've had a small discussion about it before with Tk, and he said something that really hit home:
"Well I’ve always said I do kind of like my heroes quite heroic, I like Nanoha too even though everyone seems to think she’s too “perfect”.
But you know what as I've said that doesn’t really bother me. Nanoha is basically the Superman of her universe, besides without some paragon to compare too how do you judge “flawed” anyway? Flawed compared to what? Face it the very concept of a “flawed” hero requires a pure hero to exist."
On the subject of her wisdom... it's true that no 9-year-old should have that much wisdom and intelligence, but then that is the case for any 9-year-old. Fate and Hayate are not excluded from this either. Sure, Fate was abused by her mother for a little while, and Hayate lived alone for as long as she can remember, but that doesn't change that they are still 9-year-olds. This is really something that's just part of the mahou shoujo genre though, and cracking down specifically on Nanoha for it is unfair, as the same thing goes for Hayate, Fate, Erio, Caro, Lutecia... the only one with an excuse would be Vivio, as she has the memories of a long lost rules helping her.
9taileddemon
2009-04-07, 01:43
What wisdom is it that people are talking about? Can you give examples, because I did not see a lot of it coming from most of the kids.
I saw a lot of them being stubborn, lonely, and beam-spam happy but not much else past that. Do I need to rewatch the first two series or something to see this Wisdom you speak of or can someone just explain.
arkhangelsk
2009-04-07, 19:21
On the subject of her wisdom... it's true that no 9-year-old should have that much wisdom and intelligence, but then that is the case for any 9-year-old. Fate and Hayate are not excluded from this either. Sure, Fate was abused by her mother for a little while, and Hayate lived alone for as long as she can remember, but that doesn't change that they are still 9-year-olds. This is really something that's just part of the mahou shoujo genre though, and cracking down specifically on Nanoha for it is unfair, as the same thing goes for Hayate, Fate, Erio, Caro, Lutecia... the only one with an excuse would be Vivio, as she has the memories of a long lost rules helping her.
True, the sums don't really add up. But on a visceral level of plausibility, it is hard to deny that Nanoha has the least to stand on. Humans tend to be very generous when watching films, so if you give them SOMETHING to stand on they'll magnify it in their minds to adequacy. But Nanoha doesn't have that.
(It is the "character version" of Barrier Jackets for you. Realistically (and even close observationally) they just don't stack up, and you know everything I've thought about them. But for you, they are the leg when people slam into walls. Imagine if they slammed into the walls without the BJs - really takes a cut to your visceral perception of plausibility... and saying that people survive being slammed into walls in anime doesn't hack it.)
MeisterBabylon
2009-04-07, 22:26
I believe people surviving slamming into walls (even leaving a dent!) will never stop haunting us. Touma smacking mage into wall leaving dent anyone? :uhoh:
RadiantBeam
2009-04-08, 09:28
What wisdom is it that people are talking about? Can you give examples, because I did not see a lot of it coming from most of the kids.
I saw a lot of them being stubborn, lonely, and beam-spam happy but not much else past that. Do I need to rewatch the first two series or something to see this Wisdom you speak of or can someone just explain.
From my limited knowledge of the magical girl genre (only other ones I bothered with were Sailor Moon and Tokyo Mew Mew), wisdom mainly pertains to the heroine's ability to try and save other people regardless of the sacrifices she will have to make for herself or others, so long as the people she tries to save are okay in the end. In general, this is done through sheer stubborness and a maturity that exceeds their 9-14 years of age.
(So far as I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
An example of this that is used often is Sailor Moon's almost suicidal focus on saving Tomoe Hotaru during the S season. She willingly goes against Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune to accomplish this, and uses her own pure heart to defeat Pharaoh 90 and the Death Busters so Hotaru won't die.
Again, I could be wrong. Just my interpretation.
What wisdom is it that people are talking about? Can you give examples, because I did not see a lot of it coming from most of the kids.
I saw a lot of them being stubborn, lonely, and beam-spam happy but not much else past that. Do I need to rewatch the first two series or something to see this Wisdom you speak of or can someone just explain.
Yuuno's taking of the responsibility concerning the Jewel Seeds, Nanoha's realization that Fate is similar to her, Fate's solitary hunt for the Jewel Seeds, Hayate's living alone for much of her life...
arkhangelsk
2009-04-08, 13:55
My personal favorites, however, are what Nanoha muttered about "Eternity" - there is no such as Eternity or Hayate's saying about dreams are dreams.
Between natural tendency and indoctrination, a 9-year-old might be brought up well enough to have a sense of responsibility (or at least to act like it) or to take care of themselves (as long as no major contingencies happen, which is made much easier by Hayate's limited ability to get out of the house!)
But what they said about Eternity and Dreams? They suggest understanding and reflection of some fairly abstract concepts. At 9, they are still a few years away from beginning to understand abstract concepts, let alone flip it around like they did - many adults would probably have trouble with what they did, even if they took time out to reflect on it, let alone in a fight.
As for the maturity, self-sacrifice or whatever it is that Magical Girls have, it is true that other anime also have it (if anything, Shinji of Evagelion probably is more like how MOST people, kids or otherwise, will react to their first deadly fight if suddenly plunged into it), but few have it come out as fast, as completely, or as regularly as Nanoha and Co. And remember that at 9 years old, Nanoha and Co are near the BOTTOM of the age ladder for magical girls.
Finally, try this exercise: When you re-watch the first two seasons of the anime,
1) close your eyes so the visuals don't affect you,
2) try to convince yourself that they are not 9, but 20 year old characters.
Feel anything strange? See a lot of actions that scream "They don't act their age! They act as if they are 9 (or even 13) years old?" If you can forget the part where Nanoha mutter she's in Primary school Grade 3 you are running out of signs.
With a lot of anime, even those specifically depicting young adults (say university students), you'll find enough clearly immature acts that won't be out of place if they were depicting middle-schoolers. With Nanoha, it is just the inverse. You can take specific examples or you can take things as a whole, but ridiculously mature ain't far out of place for Nanoha, even by anime (or perhaps even more so because by anime) standards.
Lilly_raven
2009-06-11, 01:36
Nanoha and Fate are both my favourites
Fate..by like millions & billions of light years.
I never really took the chance to expand on this when I initially posted but I will do so now.
It's really difficult to convey how Fate became my absolute number one favorite character in not only the MSLN universe, but rather in general as well. I reflect upon the earlier days of when I was first introduced to the series through an avatar (can't remember which) that one of my good e-friends had on in a forum during the time. I felt a rush of adrenaline filled with euphoric emotions coursing through me - I was in love with that scrumptious goldenness at first sight. Therefore, I embarked into the journey of seeking out the anime and then venturing into its vast universe. Fate was introduced outstandingly and remarkably. Her distinctively unique lightning powers obliterated me with unlimited moe works. The manner of how her inflexible relationship towards her mother impacted my overall enjoyment of the franchise positively and tremendously. Fate's character attributes appealed and captivated me; she is possibly the most dynamic character I have ever witnessed, displaying a variety of emotions throughout the course of the series. (antagonist/faithfulness, unlimited moe and sex appeal, a loving friend, an embracing mother, a comforting ally, and much more) Every scene with Fate, every bit of tiny glimpses of Fate caused the atmosphere to sparkle and dazzle, it was filled with riveting scenes where ever and when ever Fate was depicted in. The overall appeal of the series would have been nonexistent were Fate not being in it for me. I revere every step she takes and cherish every move she makes. The portrayal of her interaction through her peers, allies, and the environment stood out the most to me. Her physical features are also incredibly sensually appealing. I love admiring her stunning beauty. Fate is the greatest thing that's ever happened to me, causing me to elicit such sentimental feelings. These phrases, words, sentences can't even dare to fathom her legacy and have yet to only present a fragment of my addiction towards her.
Vivio.Takamachi
2009-07-14, 06:19
Fate is a Godmother!!!
I love Fate mama
itanshi1
2009-07-14, 08:25
Almost read that as godmoder
Anyways, I couldn't vote on this. I like the pallet of characters and I'm a sucker for Fate like characters (save shugo chara for obvious reasons, but yay more music)
Its not moe, its not shyness, its not even being blond. Frankly, I like her name, I like her strengths and her weaknesses. I went from watching a show, to watching an epic. Granted its still fisher price combat, but I'm hooked. Still in saying this, I'm not favoring her over the rest.
synaesthetic
2009-07-14, 13:01
My favorites are...
Nanoha is, well, the reason the entire series exists. Nanoha is the protagonist, though somewhat less so in StrikerS, but she still has significant screen time, and fights the final battle. Nanoha is the source of all hot-bloodedness and awesome in the Nanoha franchise. Nanoha pioneered the tried-and-tested technique of making friends via beating the living shit out of them.
Simply put, Nanoha is awesome and epic win. Not to mention hot-blooded. SHE IS A GUNDAM. Setsuna F. Seiei would fall in love with her instantly.
Hayate, well... I have to admit, I mostly like her for her character design. StrikerS got to show this off on many occasions, giving her more screen time in her Barrier Jacket than A's and getting to show off some of her powerful spells, including some we remember Reinforce v1.0 using in A's.
Outside of ass-kicking, Hayate is written well as a commander and has some shades of The Chessmaster. She's just as cool commanding from Long Arch as she is fighting on the front lines.
Reinforce v2.0 is probably one of the most creative and amusing ways I've ever seen a story handle infodumps to explain unfamiliar concepts to the audience. Not only does it make sense since she's technically a computer, but it's completely in-character for her to start rattling off on some technical subject concerning magic or the TSAB.
Certainly Rein's explanations felt more natural than did Fate's impromptu history lesson regarding kinetic weaponry to Caro and Erio.
Plus she's adorable. It's a shame Agito wasn't brought into the fold until the very end; her interactions with Rein are hilarious.
Signum is definitely my favorite of the Volkenritter in StrikerS. She doesn't get as much screen time as Vita, but Vita was my favorite in A's. Signum wins the crown here for kicking more ass and looking good while doing it. Plus the Falcon Punch! she delivered to Teana was epic.
Signum only gets more epic when she teams up with Agito and the two Unison. Entirely too much win there.
Teana is actually my favorite of the new characters from a plot perspective. Being the de facto leader of the new Section Six members, despite Subaru's presence as the obvious protagonist, Teana had a much greater degree of character development.
She started out as a Jerkass Type-A Tsundere (for Subaru, obviously) with a serious inferiority complex related to her past. Through a lot of failures, screwups, getting the shit blasted out of her by a highly annoyed Nanoha and a Falcon Punch from Signum...
But ultimately we get to watch Teana slowly progress from an arrogant little girl driven to become stronger at any cost, no matter what the risk... into a tough and capable leader who thinks clearly and works well with her team.
Of all the characters in StrikerS, veterans and newbies alike, Teana is my favorite because she received the most amount of character development and had the most compelling personal story.
Not to mention she has Grade-S zettai ryouiki! Tsundere, check! Twintails, check! Grade-A zettai ryouiki, check!
Ported from the image thread:
Jail did go out of his way to cause mayhem - he simply wanted to keep needless deaths down to a minimum at the same time.
Yes, and that is what makes him neutral evil.
How so? Why would neutral evil care either way about a lawful organization? Evil is opposite to good, not opposite to lawful.
And? That doesn't mean a neutral evil character won't try to undermine such an organization. The point is that neutral evil is the alignment for the 'play along and then backstep' types. The alignment of those they backstep doesn't enter into it.
Unless they're doing it to serve a chaotic end goal.
No, that'd make them neutral evil. Chaotic evil characters only follow orders out of fear of punishment or something similar.
Aahhh... but Precia did care about Alicia. Everything she did was tied to Alicia - quite systematic, and hardly chaotic at all.
Precia had supreme regard for the life of Alicia. It's just that her pure evilness caused her to engage in evil means to try to accomplish her goals.
It is, actually. Alicia was Precia's desire. Remember, characters of this alignment tend to have no respect for rules, other peoples' lives, or anything but their own desires. Precia did not for a moment stop to think whether Alicia would have wanted Precia to do what she did. All she cared about was getting her back, and she'd do anything from whipping a clone of Alicia to tearing apart dimensions. Quite selfish, quote chaotic.
Flashiness obviously runs counter to orderliness (organized parades notwithstanding - and Jail wasn't putting on a parade) - flashiness often has a train wreck effect, upsetting the natural order of things.
A serial murderer doesn't lit of the fireworks when he brutally and/or painfully kills someone. Doesn't mean he's not chaotic evil though.
Triple_R
2009-08-06, 08:40
Edit: Actually, upon further review, I think that I was getting the labels mixed up here. Keroko is right - going by the D&D understanding of neutral evil and chaotic evil, Jail is neutral evil and Precia is chaotic evil.
This is in contrast to Nanoha, who is surrounded by a loving family and close friends. Yes, she definitely had neglect issues for a few years while her father was recovering, but she was never forced to do without or suffered genuine hardship, yet out of that she develops a level of self-sufficiency and maturity at age 9 that most adults would kill to have, and a sense of responsibility that basically amounts to "do everything I possibly can for others regardless of the cost to myself." Her "with great power comes great responsibility" moment (MGLN Ep. 3, which is as directly cribbed off the Spider-Man origin story as anything I've ever seen), basically consists of saying a nine-year-old-child can't take a couple of minutes to have tea and cake with her friends because it might lead to Something Bad Happening. And while she apparently wises up to some extent because she tries very hard to hammer home to Teana that such an attitude is improper and self-destructive, it just as clearly doesn't apply to herself.
Okay, first of all, being neglected, if only for a few years and with perfectly valid reasons, can lead to severe issues concerning a child's development and can force them to mature early to compensate and try to understand what's going on around them. Let's also remember that Nanoha's siblings seem to be quite older than her, which makes matters worse. In season 1 she was basically forced into a situation where either she got smart and learned as fast as she could on-the-go or she was killed either by rampaging Jewel Seed-turned-monster or by an unrelenting Fate, who at the time, would've done anything to make her mother happy. Also, what Nanoha hammered into Teana was that pushing herself was bad, especially if you have no reason whatsoever to do so. Teana was being plain dumb at the time, she had yet to grow up and realize that when you push yourself to your limits and beyond it should be when no other options are left to you. It most certainly wasn't the case in that mock battle.
If Nanoha has forced herself over what her limits usually would be, she did it for the sake of someone, always with a reason and when no other options were left. So please explain to me how exactly does 'don't push yourself for useless reasons' not apply to herself?
:topicoff: BTW: I love your writing ;)
Anyway, I agree that there is no small amount of surrealism in Nanoha's motivations. I've had a small discussion about it before with Tk, and he said something that really hit home:
"Well I’ve always said I do kind of like my heroes quite heroic, I like Nanoha too even though everyone seems to think she’s too “perfect”.
But you know what as I've said that doesn’t really bother me. Nanoha is basically the Superman of her universe, besides without some paragon to compare to how do you judge “flawed” anyway? Flawed compared to what? Face it the very concept of a “flawed” hero requires a pure hero to exist."
On the subject of her wisdom... it's true that no 9-year-old should have that much wisdom and intelligence, but then that is the case for any 9-year-old. Fate and Hayate are not excluded from this either. Sure, Fate was abused by her mother for a little while, and Hayate lived alone for as long as she can remember, but that doesn't change that they are still 9-year-olds. This is really something that's just part of the mahou shoujo genre though, and cracking down specifically on Nanoha for it is unfair, as the same thing goes for Hayate, Fate, Erio, Caro, Lutecia... the only one with an excuse would be Vivio, as she has the memories of a long lost rules helping her.
Right now you're my favorite person, Keroko.
Apparently, it's sort of a standard for the Nanoha-verse to have mature kids. Besides, why is it that a character has to have some tragic, terrible sort of past to be mature at an early age? I have a friend who, when she was a kid, she even scared some adults because "her eyes are too serious, she doesn't act like a kid!" and she had no tragic past, it was just the way she was.
Sometimes real life is stranger than fiction.
From my limited knowledge of the magical girl genre (only other ones I bothered with were Sailor Moon and Tokyo Mew Mew), wisdom mainly pertains to the heroine's ability to try and save other people regardless of the sacrifices she will have to make for herself or others, so long as the people she tries to save are okay in the end. In general, this is done through sheer stubborness and a maturity that exceeds their 9-14 years of age.
Exactly.
What Nanoha has is not maturity, it's incredible stubbornnes, unrealistic optimism and maybe a lack of common sense. She has the bad habit of trying to get the other party to explain themselves and to settle things by talking. While this could be considered something 'mature', I view it as further proof of her childishness and of her not having grown up at all. She believes that with stubborn determination and by letting the enemy explain themselves, things can be solved. If that were the case there would be no need for the police, the army or in this case, the TSAB. Only children and naive people believe such things.
(if anything, Shinji of Evagelion probably is more like how MOST people, kids or otherwise, will react to their first deadly fight if suddenly plunged into it)
Let's not mix Eva in here, I think it's fairly safe to assume that they're not comparable and that the characters are on completely different levels. If we do, we'll end up with a discussion of about 30 pages without end in sight...
Plus, I don't recall Nanoha being all happy and going "LOOK AT ME, I'M KICKING MONSTER ASS!" in her first fight. If I remember correctly, she was confused and didn't really know what happened, needed a lot of coaching and while, yes she had a lot of magical potential, she was extremely clumsy with it at first.
Finally, try this exercise: When you re-watch the first two seasons of the anime,
1) close your eyes so the visuals don't affect you,
2) try to convince yourself that they are not 9, but 20 year old characters.
Feel anything strange? See a lot of actions that scream "They don't act their age! They act as if they are 9 (or even 13) years old?" If you can forget the part where Nanoha mutter she's in Primary school Grade 3 you are running out of signs.
You said so yourself, "THEY" don't act their age. If it's a standard in the Nanoha universe then it's not at all weird for Nanoha to be overly mature at such a young age. Every other kid her age is like that so why bash only her?
synaesthetic
2009-08-06, 11:43
The way I see it, none of the Nanoha leading ladies act wise at all. Most of them act in ways that actual soldiers would sooner eat a bullet from their own gun. They succeed in part because of their youthful naivete, their bizarre lack of fear and insane optimism.
The Wolkenritter are slightly better because they're adults (despite Vita's loli-licious body) and also not actually human, but even they act in questionable ways on multiple occasions. Many of Nanoha's characters are incredibly thickheaded and refuse to just examine for a moment why the hell they're doing what they're doing.
The Wolkenritter have more of an excuse than most--those knightly types are all about Honor Before Reason, after all--but nearly everyone in the show has the same kind of personalities as characters in a Super Robot or magical-girl anime. They're all running more on BURNING SPIRIT or ridiculous optimism than anything else.
And for the record, I don't consider Jail to be truly black-on-black evil. Whilst I despise using the AD&D alignment system, Jail flipflops between Pet the Dog, Kick the Dog and Rape the Dog moments so often and so frequently that one wonders how anyone could think he's anything but majorly chaotic--and majorly insane. But then again, most mad scientists are, in fact, mad.
As that CIA guy from that awful movie Under Siege 2 said, "Sane people don't make weapons like this."
Triple_R
2009-08-06, 11:52
Hey, you think you have it bad? My favorite characters constantly battling for first place are Nanoha and Vivio. And while Vivio is excused because I like her background and more mature post-StrikerS version more then the moe-blob, I have not even the slightest clue why I like Nanoha so much. :eyespin:
Anyway, I agree that there is no small amount of surrealism in Nanoha's motivations. I've had a small discussion about it before with Tk, and he said something that really hit home:
"Well I’ve always said I do kind of like my heroes quite heroic, I like Nanoha too even though everyone seems to think she’s too “perfect”.
But you know what as I've said that doesn’t really bother me. Nanoha is basically the Superman of her universe, besides without some paragon to compare too how do you judge “flawed” anyway? Flawed compared to what? Face it the very concept of a “flawed” hero requires a pure hero to exist."
On the subject of her wisdom... it's true that no 9-year-old should have that much wisdom and intelligence, but then that is the case for any 9-year-old. Fate and Hayate are not excluded from this either. Sure, Fate was abused by her mother for a little while, and Hayate lived alone for as long as she can remember, but that doesn't change that they are still 9-year-olds. This is really something that's just part of the mahou shoujo genre though, and cracking down specifically on Nanoha for it is unfair, as the same thing goes for Hayate, Fate, Erio, Caro, Lutecia... the only one with an excuse would be Vivio, as she has the memories of a long lost rules helping her.
Love the Superman comparison! I definitely view Nanoha as very Superman-esque. I even once considered writing a Superman/Nanoha fanfic that would have Superman create an almost all-female anime Justice League, with Nanoha and Fate as his two most trusted allies in that anime Justice League.
Nanoha's a touch too calm, wise, and mature for her age (intelligence is debatable - if what her school teaches is any indication, it's ahead of where most North American elementary students are at; so many nine year old Japanese girls really are this well-educated). However, Nanoha being a bit too competent is much better than what I've normally found with magical girls - very clutzy, very immature, easily frightened, takes forever to get used to their powers, some of them even hate having super powers, etc...
Nanoha's competency and strength of character is a breath of fresh air for the magical girl genre.
Actually Jail didn't gone for mass death way because it would make his plans fail completely - instead of Brains covering all that it would be half of "free" TSAB forces concentrated on Mid and seeking Jail. Still very Neutral Evil'ish from him. Thing about Chaotic Evil is they simply can NOT to see somebody back and not to strike in it. Even if it's goes against they better results. It would be piles of bodies just because he could do so if he was CE...
synaesthetic
2009-08-06, 16:41
That's why I dislike the AD&D alignment system. It's pretty lacking and very black and white despite having 9 potential alignments.
Jail does some evil stuff... experimenting on people, taking pleasure in Vivio's pain and fear, but he doesn't kill too many people. He's obviously not all there in the upstairs, but he's together enough to know not to overstep his bounds.
Either that, or he doesn't kill people as a result of his insanity rather than any logical fear of retaliation or morality.
That's why I dislike the AD&D alignment system. It's pretty lacking and very black and white despite having 9 potential alignments.
Yes, well, it has to be. Prevents gargantuan debates between players.
And if you're not sure, follow the golden rule: When in doubt, chaotic neutral.
Jail does some evil stuff... experimenting on people, taking pleasure in Vivio's pain and fear, but he doesn't kill too many people. He's obviously not all there in the upstairs, but he's together enough to know not to overstep his bounds.
Either that, or he doesn't kill people as a result of his insanity rather than any logical fear of retaliation or morality.
Jail wasn't really enjoying Vivio's pain, but more the completion of his experiments. I'm pretty sure he didn't even hear Vivio's screams.
Quattro did though. And she reveled in it.
Tempest Dynasty
2009-08-06, 17:02
I roll with True Neutral.
"Whatever works."
Triple_R
2009-08-06, 17:07
That's why I dislike the AD&D alignment system. It's pretty lacking and very black and white despite having 9 potential alignments.
Jail does some evil stuff... experimenting on people, taking pleasure in Vivio's pain and fear, but he doesn't kill too many people. He's obviously not all there in the upstairs, but he's together enough to know not to overstep his bounds.
Either that, or he doesn't kill people as a result of his insanity rather than any logical fear of retaliation or morality.
Well, if you're going to take 3 Nanoha characters and put them in the three evil slots... Jail and Precia are the first two obvious picks - I mean, relative to the other characters, they're evil. The other pick made is probably the most evil of the remaining options.
Part of Nanoha's maturity and composure is, in my opinion, due to the way she was raised. She herself said that she had a lot of personal time as a child (if I recall correctly) because she wanted to keep out of her family's way. Lots of personal time results in lots of introspection and time spent doing things by yourself, experiencing things by yourself. This is probably why she is considered 'wise beyond her years'. She simply experienced a lot more of the world than most people her age would. You'd be surprise how a bit of personal time could affect you...
Although Nanoha excels in maturity, composure, wisdom and even intelligence. She is far, far from being perfect. Nanoha isn't exactly the paragon of socially interacting with people. Who in their right mind would beat up someone they want to be friends with?:heh:
Although Nanoha excels in maturity, composure, wisdom and even intelligence. She is far, far from being perfect. Nanoha isn't exactly the paragon of socially interacting with people. Who in their right mind would beat up someone they want to be friends with?:heh:
A LOT of anime and manga characters seem to follow that.
But, yes, Nanoha is rather... Well, dense when it comes to certain character interactions, isn't she?
Part of Nanoha's maturity and composure is, in my opinion, due to the way she was raised. She herself said that she had a lot of personal time as a child (if I recall correctly) because she wanted to keep out of her family's way. Lots of personal time results in lots of introspection and time spent doing things by yourself, experiencing things by yourself. This is probably why she is considered 'wise beyond her years'. She simply experienced a lot more of the world than most people her age would. You'd be surprise how a bit of personal time could affect you...
An already mature person, yes. However a child would not magically become more mature if left alone. Quite contrary, the mind of a child adjusts and grows by mimicking what she sees around herself. Yes, she would certainly learn, but not nearly as much as with a family around her, and not the right things either. So technically, Nanoha should have been less mature by being alone for so long. She'd have learned basic things, but more advanced things could only have come from interaction.
Of course, as I said before, this is anime. A magical girl anime. Mature young girls are a staple of the genre. I mean, Nanoha aside, Hayate has been living alone for who-knows-how-long. A nine year old? A weelchair bound nine year old? Living alone? In a well fairing city?
Yeah. Realism went out the window there. So lets not bother trying to bring it back.
Although Nanoha excels in maturity, composure, wisdom and even intelligence. She is far, far from being perfect. Nanoha isn't exactly the paragon of socially interacting with people. Who in their right mind would beat up someone they want to be friends with?:heh:
But then, that's why we love her, right?
Fuyu no Sora
2009-08-06, 17:38
An already mature person, yes. However a child would not magically become more mature if left alone. Quite contrary, the mind of a child adjusts and grows by mimicking what she sees around herself. Yes, she would certainly learn, but not nearly as much as with a family around her, and not the right things either. So technically, Nanoha should have been less mature by being alone for so long. She'd have learned basic things, but more advanced things could only have come from interaction.
Of course, as I said before, this is anime. A magical girl anime. Mature young girls are a staple of the genre. I mean, Nanoha aside, Hayate has been living alone for who-knows-how-long. A nine year old? A weelchair bound nine year old? Living alone? In a well fairing city?
Yeah. Realism went out the window there. So lets not bother trying to bring it back.
And Keroko-kun once again wins the Golden Apple of The Best Argument *Nods in approval* I agree with all the above.
But then, that's why we love her, right?
"Only a lack of restraint truly shows Nanoha-level quality" - StrikerS Nano #82 "Arrest It"
Takamura Mamoru
2009-08-06, 18:04
I like Signum and Fate best.. Both equally.
Rising Dragon
2009-08-06, 18:06
Which alignment would the Automatic Defense Program of the Book of Darkness represent?
DezoPenguin
2009-08-06, 18:43
Which alignment would the Automatic Defense Program of the Book of Darkness represent?
I'd say Chaotic Neutral. It basically goes out of control and blows stuff up without any real rhyme or reason (except in those first few moments where it exists solely to carry out the last "blow specific stuff up" wish of its master, where it might be Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Evil, depending on how you choose to interpret "it follows exactly what its leader says to do regardless of external morality"--I'd argue the former). Either that or it would be "Non-aligned" (2nd Edition) because in its insane mode it has no real intelligence, acting just as a force of nature more than a personality.
DezoPenguin
2009-08-06, 18:58
Okay, first of all, being neglected, if only for a few years and with perfectly valid reasons, can lead to severe issues concerning a child's development and can force them to mature early to compensate and try to understand what's going on around them. Let's also remember that Nanoha's siblings seem to be quite older than her, which makes matters worse. In season 1 she was basically forced into a situation where either she got smart and learned as fast as she could on-the-go or she was killed either by rampaging Jewel Seed-turned-monster or by an unrelenting Fate, who at the time, would've done anything to make her mother happy.
Oh, this must be what you mean over in the other thread...
Okay, the problem here is you're arguing the quality of the character based on the results. I'm sure a bunch of folks in the Military, Authority, and Decisions thread would plotz if I made the argument that Hayate's tactics were brilliant in the final battle because they resulted in all the villains being captured except for Due and Zest, the Cradle stopped, the city of Cranagan largely protected, all the kidnap victims (Ginga, Vivio, Megane) recovered alive, well, and de-brainwashed, and nobody getting killed except for Regius Gaiz (whom I would argue that Due should have gutted him, tied his intestines to his desk, and kicked him out the window while he was still alive...but I really, really don't like Gaiz and that's not the topic here anyway).
You're right: Nanoha was thrown into a situation where she had to adapt fast or get killed. The point is, most nine-year-old kids in her situation would...get killed. I know that I would have. Heck, Yuuno would have--that's why he needed Nanoha's help in the first place. Nanoha, on the other hand, thrived. She picked up the pointy blasting stick and never looked back.
Also, what Nanoha hammered into Teana was that pushing herself was bad, especially if you have no reason whatsoever to do so. Teana was being plain dumb at the time, she had yet to grow up and realize that when you push yourself to your limits and beyond it should be when no other options are left to you. It most certainly wasn't the case in that mock battle.
Please note: I'm in no way arguing with Nanoha's advice to her students. It's good advice. This is particularly the case with Tia, who was pushing herself to try and exceed the limits of safe tactical combat (zapping Subaru, for example, in the Augusta Hotel battle) solely because she had an inferiority complex about being surrounded by S-ranks and artificial mages and combat cyborgs and dragon summoners.
If Nanoha has forced herself over what her limits usually would be, she did it for the sake of someone, always with a reason and when no other options were left. So please explain to me how exactly does 'don't push yourself for useless reasons' not apply to herself?
Simple. I didn't say that and I'm not going to argue in favor of it. What I'm pointing out is that Nanoha does not follow "push yourself for no reason"--her "zenryoku zenkai" philosophy is just that: all out, all the time. That's how she developed Starlight Breaker Plus, by going to full strength in a training session (A's manga). By StrikerS it's said that she learned her lesson from when she was nearly killed, but she doesn't act that way when she goes into battle (though--I will point out that we're not presented with situations where she can hold back, as you do point out).
I'd say that Nanoha, as a teacher, believes in the "do as I say, not as I do" principle. On some level, she probably even realizes that she's psychologically incapable of doing less than her utmost.
(This, by the way, is why she has her limiter back in my "Steel Queen Chronicle" series of fics.)
:topicoff: BTW: I love your writing ;)
Thank you!
Exactly.
What Nanoha has is not maturity, it's incredible stubbornnes, unrealistic optimism and maybe a lack of common sense. She has the bad habit of trying to get the other party to explain themselves and to settle things by talking. While this could be considered something 'mature', I view it as further proof of her childishness and of her not having grown up at all. She believes that with stubborn determination and by letting the enemy explain themselves, things can be solved. If that were the case there would be no need for the police, the army or in this case, the TSAB. Only children and naive people believe such things.
Well, she's never even once shown hesitation to blast the hell out of the enemy when talking didn't work. She'd just rather talk things out. And to be fair, she really does show fairly good judgment in deciding whom to talk to: Fate, Arf, Vita, and Reinforce (You don't see her, for example, asking Quattro to surrender nicely and hand Vivio back.). Given the ridiculous number of villains who reform in MGLN, getting to understand the enemy's motivations and convincing them that there would be a better way to mutually accomplish their goals isn't necessarily a bad plan.
It's not so much childishness as it is idealism. Nanoha never claims that force isn't necessary to defend innocents against those who refuse to listen to reason, but she's not going to be the one to fire the first shot.
Plus, I don't recall Nanoha being all happy and going "LOOK AT ME, I'M KICKING MONSTER ASS!" in her first fight. If I remember correctly, she was confused and didn't really know what happened, needed a lot of coaching and while, yes she had a lot of magical potential, she was extremely clumsy with it at first.
It's not so much about skill level--it's about her willingness, indeed eagerness, to accept the responsibility of what she was doing. Unlike other magical girl heroines, Nanoha never complains about having the way the job basically fell into her normal life, never "just wants to be normal," or any of it. She basically sees that now that she has power, she can do good things with it, and decides that she needs to do so rather than abrogate responsibility, even when she might be scared, confused, or just inexperienced.
Come to think of it, you never see any Nanoha protagonist whine about their fates. There is just no wangst in this series.
You said so yourself, "THEY" don't act their age. If it's a standard in the Nanoha universe then it's not at all weird for Nanoha to be overly mature at such a young age. Every other kid her age is like that so why bash only her?
Continuing the trope-speak, it's because while everybody gets a handwave as to why they're overly mature in the face of danger, only Nanoha's is weak enough to make my suspension of disbelief go into eyeroll mode.
I think that's one reason why I strongly accept the idea that Triangle Heart 3 is canon except where specifically contradicted (Shiro living, Lindy and Chrono's roles, etc.). Nanoha's character makes so much more sense if you first accept that she's the child of a clan of ninja bodyguards.
The way I see it, none of the Nanoha leading ladies act wise at all. Most of them act in ways that actual soldiers would sooner eat a bullet from their own gun. They succeed in part because of their youthful naivete, their bizarre lack of fear and insane optimism.
MGLN is just the weirdest cross-genre mash-up ever, and I think it really explains some of the head-scratchers.
The setting is basically traditional sci-fi, other than the use of magitek as opposed to merely sufficiently advanced technology.
The battles and plots are basically super-robot show. Willpower and HOT-BLOODED fighting spirit, energy blasts out the wazoo, bigger and badder explosions everywhere you look.
The ethos of the series is where the "Magical Girl" still comes in. More than half of the antagonists end up switching sides. And as far as I can tell, the only member of the opposition who doesn't have at least a certain sympathetic motivation is Quattro. (Precia is certifiably insane, driven out of her mind by grief and (very likely) guilt--she needs institutionalization and therapy. Jail is equally insane and was apparently programmed that way; he had no choice than to be what he is--and he's still a functional "team dad" for the Numbers. Gaiz, much as I hate him, was originally motivated by idealism and a desire to cure a social ill and to prevent the deaths of innocents. Uno, Due, and Tre are loyal followers of Jail's cause--they're more like political enemies rather than genuine bad guys.) Ultimately, it's The Power of Love and The Power of Friendship cranked to max which carry the day as the underlying narrative principles.
The Wolkenritter have more of an excuse than most--those knightly types are all about Honor Before Reason, after all--but nearly everyone in the show has the same kind of personalities as characters in a Super Robot or magical-girl anime. They're all running more on BURNING SPIRIT or ridiculous optimism than anything else.
See above point. That's...the universe they live in.
And for the record, I don't consider Jail to be truly black-on-black evil. Whilst I despise using the AD&D alignment system, Jail flipflops between Pet the Dog, Kick the Dog and Rape the Dog moments so often and so frequently that one wonders how anyone could think he's anything but majorly chaotic--and majorly insane. But then again, most mad scientists are, in fact, mad.
Agree completely. Just when you think he's a complete monster, he does something nice. Just when you think he might be redeemable, he does something that makes you boggle in shock and/or disgust.
Love the Superman comparison! I definitely view Nanoha as very Superman-esque.
Heh; when I was discussing Nanoha's idealism with RadiantBeam for the "Shadows" series, I actually used Superman to describe Nanoha's POV in the examples...
Nanoha's a touch too calm, wise, and mature for her age (intelligence is debatable - if what her school teaches is any indication, it's ahead of where most North American elementary students are at; so many nine year old Japanese girls really are this well-educated).
That's education--her intelligence is better reflected by the fact that she's at or near the top of her class in everything.
However, Nanoha being a bit too competent is much better than what I've normally found with magical girls - very clutzy, very immature, easily frightened, takes forever to get used to their powers, some of them even hate having super powers, etc...
Nanoha's competency and strength of character is a breath of fresh air for the magical girl genre.
Very, very true. :D
Jail wasn't really enjoying Vivio's pain, but more the completion of his experiments. I'm pretty sure he didn't even hear Vivio's screams.
Quattro did though. And she reveled in it.
Right. Quattro, I've always thought, is the one, single character in all three anime series who's a complete villain to the core without any redeeming or sympathetic features whatsoever.
Well, if you're going to take 3 Nanoha characters and put them in the three evil slots... Jail and Precia are the first two obvious picks - I mean, relative to the other characters, they're evil. The other pick made is probably the most evil of the remaining options.
See previous comment. Quattro, followed by Jail, followed by Precia (because Precia is completely insane and insanity definitely affects the kind of moral function required for insanity). I think that the examples given (Gaiz = LE, Jail = NE, Quattro/Precia = CE) are well-chosen. Though I'd say Uno should be LE instead of NE, since she never shows any sign of backstabbing Jail or having any contradictory agenda. Not sure about Due; we don't get to see enough of her.
Although Nanoha excels in maturity, composure, wisdom and even intelligence. She is far, far from being perfect. Nanoha isn't exactly the paragon of socially interacting with people. Who in their right mind would beat up someone they want to be friends with?:heh:
This is turning into one of my buttons. "Mention befriending and watch DezoPenguin" jump! Maybe it should be a party trick... :heh:
That being said, while the whole "befriend them until unconscious" gag is funny in gags or the Nano comics or whatever, when seriously discussing canon, it's not even true. The list of people Nanoha "befriended" in the "beat them up to become friends" sense is exactly two:
Arisa (slapped in defense of Suzuka)
Fate (this one we know ;) )
Everyone else...just didn't happen. Vita never gets smacked down by Nanoha (that buster got blocked by Aria, and they never fight on opposite sides again). Hayate never fights her at all (remember that Reinforce pointed out that the Reinforce that was fighting Nanoha and Fate was the defense program, not her or a unisoned Hayate). And Vivio was already her friend when she got nuked ("Mommy, please get this nasty Lost Logia that's allowing the Cradle's computer to manipulate my body in battle out of me so we can go home!").
Okay...Dieci can get an honorable mention for getting blasted and switching sides, though there was no talking between her and Nanoha either before or after IIRC. So she's more like "having doubt instilled by being disgusted by Quattro" instead of "having doubt instilled by Nanoha's initial talk" followed by "zapped by Nanoha" followed by "becoming family with Subaru and friends with Tia and Vivio and the second gen." instead of "becoming friends with Nanoha."
Takamura Mamoru
2009-08-06, 19:01
I'm not sure what the Automatic Defense Program is, right now.
Is it the ugly mass of tentacles and eyes or is it the "outside Reinforce"?
Because the mass doesn't really have a mind, it doesn't have an alignment either.
Animals are usually Neutral (Because they don't know good or bad) but I don't think a mindless program can have an alignment.
Reinforce, I'd say is Neutral.
DezoPenguin
2009-08-06, 19:03
I'm not sure what the Automatic Defense Program is, right now.
Is it the ugly mass of tentacles and eyes or is it the "outside Reinforce"?
It's both, actually.
The "outside Reinforce" is the Automatic Defense Program when first activated. The tentacular mass is the Automatic Defense Program when it goes out of control.
synaesthetic
2009-08-06, 19:04
Quattro's complete bastardry is a lot of why I dig her the same way I dig Ali Al Saachez.
They're both utterly amoral evil bastards and we like them that way, dammit!
Takamura Mamoru
2009-08-06, 19:13
Ah now I remember. The inside Reinforce had some control over the outside Reinforce, but not when it went berserk.
So I'll stick to "it doesn't have an alignment".
To Nanoha, I think she acts very much on her own. She's not like Fate.
She definitely has some negative qualities, like stubbornness.
I don't think she knows her limits.
However, I wouldn't say she's chaotic. She does stuff her own way, but it rarely interferes with the law. I think she cares about laws and doesn't want to interfere with them, but at the same time she's just so much better working on her own rules. As if it's her natural field. However, she doesn't really know her limits. Event between A's and StrikerS..
Nanoha is a beast in chains. She needs those chains, she knows she needs those chains, but she can't help but want to go wild all she wants.:heh:
As I said in the Image Thread, Nanoha mainly cares about persons, anyway.
Neutral Good is a pretty fitting alignment for her. When I think about her like this, I never noticed she's such an interesting character.
Quattro is your textbook Smug Snake (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake). I fucking hate her and rage at her.
While she's not as EVIL as Precia, she's a far bigger BITCH.
Triple_R
2009-08-06, 19:29
I'd say that Nanoha, as a teacher, believes in the "do as I say, not as I do" principle. On some level, she probably even realizes that she's psychologically incapable of doing less than her utmost.
That's not quite it. I think that Nanoha is willing to make personal sacrifices that she's not prepared to expect others to make. It's not a case of hypocrisy - it's more a matter of how Nanoha is willing to go all out and put her life on the line to a great degree, but she's not willing to expect Subaru or Teana (or any of her subordinates) to do the same to quite the same degree.
Well, she's never even once shown hesitation to blast the hell out of the enemy when talking didn't work. She'd just rather talk things out. And to be fair, she really does show fairly good judgment in deciding whom to talk to: Fate, Arf, Vita, and Reinforce (You don't see her, for example, asking Quattro to surrender nicely and hand Vivio back.). Given the ridiculous number of villains who reform in MGLN, getting to understand the enemy's motivations and convincing them that there would be a better way to mutually accomplish their goals isn't necessarily a bad plan.
Good point. Again, I'd actually go a bit farther.
Nanoha likes to feel out, so to speak, her enemies before taking decisive action against them. This is a bit risky, but she has enough faith in her Raising Heart weapon, in her automatic flash-steps, and in her friends and allies, to think that she can survive the risk.
Nanoha is a major risk-taker - she'll risk her life and villains getting away for the sake of her ideals. This is another way in which she is like Superman.
Nanoha sizes up her enemies - looks them in the eyes, reads their body language, evaluates their words, etc... and pretty reasonably judges from there how likely her enemies are at being reformed.
Fate's "sad eyes" and largely straightforward and non-taunting/non-abusive words gave Nanoha the correct impression of a young girl in a very painful situation who is being driven by that situation (and not by any inherent immoral nature within her) to engage in questionable acts. Nanoha could correctly tell that Fate really, really didn't want to have to go so far as to kill or severely maim Nanoha. She could also tell that Fate had a distinct good side to her.
It's not so much childishness as it is idealism. Nanoha never claims that force isn't necessary to defend innocents against those who refuse to listen to reason, but she's not going to be the one to fire the first shot.
Precisely. In my view, it's a prudent course for somebody with Nanoha's level of power to take - feel people out, and see if they can be talked down.
It's not so much about skill level--it's about her willingness, indeed eagerness, to accept the responsibility of what she was doing. Unlike other magical girl heroines, Nanoha never complains about having the way the job basically fell into her normal life, never "just wants to be normal," or any of it. She basically sees that now that she has power, she can do good things with it, and decides that she needs to do so rather than abrogate responsibility, even when she might be scared, confused, or just inexperienced.
Come to think of it, you never see any Nanoha protagonist whine about their fates. There is just no wangst in this series.
And this is where a great deal of the beauty and greatness of this anime comes from. In an era (since Shinji Ikari in NGE) of typically angst-filled anime main protagonists, Nanoha is, once again, a breath of fresh air. The very fact that Teana's rather mild emo moments gained such notoriety for awhile is testament to the fact that this anime franchise does not rely on angsting to provide good drama. That's great to see.
See previous comment. Quattro, followed by Jail, followed by Precia (because Precia is completely insane and insanity definitely affects the kind of moral function required for insanity). I think that the examples given (Gaiz = LE, Jail = NE, Quattro/Precia = CE) are well-chosen. Though I'd say Uno should be LE instead of NE, since she never shows any sign of backstabbing Jail or having any contradictory agenda. Not sure about Due; we don't get to see enough of her.
Good points. I had forgotten about Quattro when I suggested that Jail and Precia were the most evil of all the Nanoha characters. Quattro is indeed more evil than even them. However, Jail and Precia are more prominent, so... like yourself, I think that the evil slots were well-chosen.
Anyway, your lengthy multi-reply post was simply awesome. :)
An awful lot of great points, with maybe only one or two things that I might be somewhat in disagreement over. Your approach to Nanoha is very close to my own.
Nice talking to you.
Takamura Mamoru
2009-08-06, 19:46
About the True Art Is Angsty comment... I find Nanoha a special case as there's quite a lot shit happening to the characters (Fate is a major example), but the anime stays fiercly idealistic.
Everyone's life has worth, even if you're a clone created as a plaything by an insane sociopath of a mother. And even if you're Clone Jesus, you'll still love your mother.
What I want to say is that either you have cynical shows or you have idealistic shows in which there's barely any angst, with much more COURAGE. Nanoha is different in that regard.
Triple_R
2009-08-06, 19:50
About the True Art Is Angsty comment... I find Nanoha a special case as there's quite a lot shit happening to the characters (Fate is a major example), but the anime stays fiercly idealistic.
Everyone's life has worth, even if you're a clone created as a plaything by an insane sociopath of a mother. And even if you're Clone Jesus, you'll still love your mother.
What I want to say is that either you have cynical shows or you have idealistic shows in which there's barely any angst, with much more COURAGE. Nanoha is different in that regard.
That's the charm of it, yes. These characters probably should be angsting more... but they're not... and that's what makes them so admirable to a certain extent.
A few things to say.
First, about quattro. I am not sure if it's explicitly said, buti really got the impression Quattro got brainwashed by Due in the StrikerS manga.i would like someone else come back to me on that, especially if there is something in the Sound Stage.
Nanoha... i think Nanoha has self-worth problems. it's nt quite outright said, but the way she resisted taking Vivio because she felt inadequate, the way she goes all out...it seems to me that she believes her life isn't worth as much as other people's.
Also, a big difference between what Tia did and What Nanoha did was that Tia endangered a teammate because of pride, and then convinced that same teammate to help in a risky and useless maneuver training (useless in the sense that Nanoha was going to slowly help tia about it, but felt tia would improve more efficiently on other things first).
And, yeah, Nanoha is intelligent. She may have blocks in her ability to see things like love, but she is intelligent, and extremely hard working, not only in the "let's do our best when there are emergencies", but also in the "let's do our best constantly" category.
Oh, this must be what you mean over in the other thread...
Yep *nod nod*
Okay, the problem here is you're arguing the quality of the character based on the results. I'm sure a bunch of folks in the Military, Authority, and Decisions thread would plotz if I made the argument that Hayate's tactics were brilliant in the final battle because they resulted in all the villains being captured except for Due and Zest, the Cradle stopped, the city of Cranagan largely protected, all the kidnap victims (Ginga, Vivio, Megane) recovered alive, well, and de-brainwashed, and nobody getting killed except for Regius Gaiz (whom I would argue that Due should have gutted him, tied his intestines to his desk, and kicked him out the window while he was still alive...but I really, really don't like Gaiz and that's not the topic here anyway).
Well, that'd be because we're talking about results here. Hayate's tactics and Nanoha's development as a character to arrive where she was at 9, when we first saw her, are very different things... (and as for Regius being killed, yes it's not the topic here, but I agree, he died far too easily and anyway, if Due had killed him under your suggested scenario it would be too gory for a pseudo magical girl show, lol.)
You're right: Nanoha was thrown into a situation where she had to adapt fast or get killed. The point is, most nine-year-old kids in her situation would...get killed. I know that I would have. Heck, Yuuno would have--that's why he needed Nanoha's help in the first place. Nanoha, on the other hand, thrived. She picked up the pointy blasting stick and never looked back.
It's the simple-minded way in which she views things. She's an idealist and believes she carries the well-being of the entire world (not entirely untrue, as a matter of fact) as soon as she knows what Yuuno is trying to do. She's good at empathizing with her peers and, typically, she never says 'no' to someone asking for her help, especially if she thinks "Hey, the entire world is depending on me. If I can help save lives, how can I say no to that?".
Simple. I didn't say that and I'm not going to argue in favor of it. What I'm pointing out is that Nanoha does not follow "push yourself for no reason"--her "zenryoku zenkai" philosophy is just that: all out, all the time. That's how she developed Starlight Breaker Plus, by going to full strength in a training session (A's manga). By StrikerS it's said that she learned her lesson from when she was nearly killed, but she doesn't act that way when she goes into battle (though--I will point out that we're not presented with situations where she can hold back, as you do point out).
:p If we can't see battles in which she doesn't need her full potential, we can't possibly say that she, indeed, goes all out, all the time. Almost, if not all, battles in StrikerS basically force her to break one limit after the other, ending up in the Blaster 3 battle against Vivio in which she used up 5 Starlight Breakers to get the relic out of her, and even then Vivio was still concious and, with difficulty, but she could still stand up... If she hadn't gone "Zenryoku zenkai" could she have won? I highly doubt it.
No, wait... there is one 'battle' if you could call it that. The first deployment of the forwards in episode 5, I think, she and Fate eliminated the aeriel drones hindering the safe flight of the helicopter carrying the four kids. She and Fate go into Aggressor and Impulse forms, which are, as I understand it, their 'normal' modes, no extra boosts or nothing. Since it was a fight that required minimum effort on her part, she didn't use anything more powerful. Her attacks consisted of 1 small buster-type shot that didn't even use a cartridge and Axel Shooter. See? She doesn't go all out unless she needs to.
I'd say that Nanoha, as a teacher, believes in the "do as I say, not as I do" principle. On some level, she probably even realizes that she's psychologically incapable of doing less than her utmost.
Not entirely true either. Although you've got a point there: She never will do less than her utmost, but it's acceptable to go over the limit when there's no other way out. Then and only then.
Thank you!
I'm a big fan and I've yet to get around to read Stahlkönigin, but I've read all the rest and I'm really hooked now :p I'm hoping you and RadiantBeam will have more exchanges so you'll continue to write more wonderful fics (both of you :p)
Well, she's never even once shown hesitation to blast the hell out of the enemy when talking didn't work. She'd just rather talk things out. And to be fair, she really does show fairly good judgment in deciding whom to talk to: Fate, Arf, Vita, and Reinforce (You don't see her, for example, asking Quattro to surrender nicely and hand Vivio back.). Given the ridiculous number of villains who reform in MGLN, getting to understand the enemy's motivations and convincing them that there would be a better way to mutually accomplish their goals isn't necessarily a bad plan.
We're talking about Nanoha as a child here, not when she's 19 in StrikerS :heh:!
But that's precisely my point: She'd rather talk first and get the enemy to explain themselves, instead of blasting them away. While it's a good plan, it's also a naive plan. When you're a criminal comitting questionable actions, you don't precisely agree to sit down and talk things through with a potential (if not already) enemy; and yet she never loses hope of getting around the firepower and instead into peacefully settling things... As for Quattro... well, I think even Nanoha had accepted the fact that you simply can't talk things with her. She happily used a child (her daughter, though not biological or whatever, the bond had still already been formed) and taunted her with images of her struggling comrades battling throughout Mid-Childa for the sole purpose of torturing her psychologically and delighting in it all the while; and while she may be a good judge of character, I think her judgement was already impaired by the sight of her daughter suffering and being brainwashed. When motherhood instincts kick in, I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume all rationality gets thrown out the window.
It's not so much childishness as it is idealism. Nanoha never claims that force isn't necessary to defend innocents against those who refuse to listen to reason, but she's not going to be the one to fire the first shot.
Hmm, point for you. But if it had been, say, Chrono in Nanoha's place, he would've most certainly used any means to arrest them and then got them to talk. Sort of like "blast them first, ask questions later" instead of Nanoha's tactics, which are a mirror image to the former.
It's not so much about skill level--it's about her willingness, indeed eagerness, to accept the responsibility of what she was doing. Unlike other magical girl heroines, Nanoha never complains about having the way the job basically fell into her normal life, never "just wants to be normal," or any of it. She basically sees that now that she has power, she can do good things with it, and decides that she needs to do so rather than abrogate responsibility, even when she might be scared, confused, or just inexperienced.
Come to think of it, you never see any Nanoha protagonist whine about their fates. There is just no wangst in this series.
Another standard in the Nanoha series it seems, lol.
Her willingness to participate in the magical world probably stems from the fact that she never truly felt comfortable where she was. Once she found out about magic, she felt like she belonged somewhere. The 'something that I can do. Something that only I can do' was found within magic and for the first time, she felt like she was a part of something, hardly something a person feeling out of place, even within her own family, would be willing to give up to.
Continuing the trope-speak, it's because while everybody gets a handwave as to why they're overly mature in the face of danger, only Nanoha's is weak enough to make my suspension of disbelief go into eyeroll mode.
Touché. Both sides have good arguments though, so I'm guessing it's up to how we want to see it.
I think that's one reason why I strongly accept the idea that Triangle Heart 3 is canon except where specifically contradicted (Shiro living, Lindy and Chrono's roles, etc.). Nanoha's character makes so much more sense if you first accept that she's the child of a clan of ninja bodyguards.
But Nanoha IS the child of a clan of bodyguards... her father was one at least, and he passed the sword-style to Kyoya, whom in turn taught Miyuki.
(Precia is certifiably insane, driven out of her mind by grief and (very likely) guilt--she needs institutionalization and therapy.
This made me laugh :D:heh:
Jail is equally insane and was apparently programmed that way; he had no choice than to be what he is--and he's still a functional "team dad" for the Numbers.
I don't think he was completely insane... There's a very cute scene in the manga in which Uno is cutting his hair, and he seems to genuinely care for the numbers... to a certain degree.
Btw: What exactly do you mean he was 'programmed' that way? He's a cyborg?
Gaiz, much as I hate him, was originally motivated by idealism and a desire to cure a social ill and to prevent the deaths of innocents.
That doesn't make him any less of a power-hungry jerk that should be hung by his pinky fingers and left to starve for weeks before making him suffer some sort of horrible torture.
Agree completely. Just when you think he's a complete monster, he does something nice. Just when you think he might be redeemable, he does something that makes you boggle in shock and/or disgust.
Jail the Unpredictable. That should be his name, really.
Right. Quattro, I've always thought, is the one, single character in all three anime series who's a complete villain to the core without any redeeming or sympathetic features whatsoever.
Quite true. She's evil because "it's fun" to her. She's a true sadistic, crazy b*%^#.
This is turning into one of my buttons. "Mention befriending and watch DezoPenguin" jump! Maybe it should be a party trick... :heh:
Oooh, can we test it out :D? (Joke)
That being said, while the whole "befriend them until unconscious" gag is funny in gags or the Nano comics or whatever, when seriously discussing canon, it's not even true. The list of people Nanoha "befriended" in the "beat them up to become friends" sense is exactly two:
Arisa (slapped in defense of Suzuka)
Fate (this one we know ;) )
Everyone else...just didn't happen. Vita never gets smacked down by Nanoha (that buster got blocked by Aria, and they never fight on opposite sides again). Hayate never fights her at all (remember that Reinforce pointed out that the Reinforce that was fighting Nanoha and Fate was the defense program, not her or a unisoned Hayate). And Vivio was already her friend when she got nuked ("Mommy, please get this nasty Lost Logia that's allowing the Cradle's computer to manipulate my body in battle out of me so we can go home!").
Okay...Dieci can get an honorable mention for getting blasted and switching sides, though there was no talking between her and Nanoha either before or after IIRC. So she's more like "having doubt instilled by being disgusted by Quattro" instead of "having doubt instilled by Nanoha's initial talk" followed by "zapped by Nanoha" followed by "becoming family with Subaru and friends with Tia and Vivio and the second gen." instead of "becoming friends with Nanoha."
Lol. Nice resume, I was wondering about that too, because even Wikipedia now has the "Nanoha Takamachi" section with a footnote about 'the White Devil' and how characters that get hit by her attacks 'suffer' character development, lol...
synaesthetic
2009-08-07, 10:52
There's a reason Nanoha's Beam Spam is pink!
It's not energetic, accelerated particles, no. It isn't even a Shout Out to the color of beam weapons in Gundam.
It's energetic, accelerated LOVE!
Question of the day: If Nanoha characters were Gundams, which Gundams would they be?
I'm thinking that Nanoha and her massive Beam Spam and Wave Motion Gun abuse could easily fit with Gundam Seravee. Her Barrier Jacket colors also make her look like the original Gundam.
Fate is obviously Gundam Deathscythe. ^^;
Signum is easy--Gundam Exia.
Help me out guys, associate some more Gundams with Nanoha characters!
Ottocycle
2009-08-07, 11:36
Berserk Subaru = Berserk Nobel
Vice is Cherudim. Teana is Dynames(using the Beam Pistols). Hayate is... a METEOR equipped unit, or the Archangel on steroids.
Subaru would be.... Well, as long as we're keeping within Sunrise, she'd be a Knightmare Frame(the landspinners). Erio would be a Gloucester.
Y DID I WRITE DIS POST I DUN EVEN NOE
synaesthetic
2009-08-07, 12:49
All Humungous Mecha should have wheels in the feet like the landspinners or the slide thing that wanzers in Front Mission do.
I'm thinking that Nanoha and her massive Beam Spam and Wave Motion Gun abuse could easily fit with Gundam Seravee. Her Barrier Jacket colors also make her look like the original Gundam.
It's Gundam -> Hi Nu or Strike (beam pack) -> Strike Freedom actually. For first two -> Strikers. Given that she is White Devil - original Gundam -> Hi Nu is obvious choice.
synaesthetic
2009-08-07, 15:09
Vice is Cherudim. Teana is Dynames(using the Beam Pistols). Hayate is... a METEOR equipped unit, or the Archangel on steroids.
Subaru would be.... Well, as long as we're keeping within Sunrise, she'd be a Knightmare Frame(the landspinners). Erio would be a Gloucester.
Erio would be an Ahead. ^^;
I kind of disagree with comparing Subaru to a KMF though. Her fan nickname ain't Gaogaigar-tan for nothing!
It's Gundam -> Hi Nu or Strike (beam pack) -> Strike Freedom actually. For first two -> Strikers. Given that she is White Devil - original Gundam -> Hi Nu is obvious choice.
Good points.
Well, if Subaru can't be GaoGaiGar or GaoFighGar...
She'd be the Shining or Burning/God Gundam.
"SUBARU FINGER!"
"Subaru!"
"What?"
"Your finger-based attacks are NOT meant to be used for groping my chest!"
"Sorry, Nanoha-san."
DezoPenguin
2009-08-07, 16:54
But Nanoha IS the child of a clan of bodyguards... her father was one at least, and he passed the sword-style to Kyoya, whom in turn taught Miyuki.
...I don't recall actually hearing what Shiro's job was anywhere in canon (Sound Stage maybe?), only that he was badly injured. The family dojo remains intact, of course, but unlike Triangle Heart I don't think we ever see them being anything more than ordinary martial artists as opposed to "go out in the world and slice up Clover Organization bad guys in real, honest-to-goodness combat."
But I like it as if they do. :D
Btw: What exactly do you mean he was 'programmed' that way? He's a cyborg?
Genetically programmed, apparently. Jail was created by the Council (i.e., the brains-in-a-jar part of the Council) to do their Mad Science bidding, breaking down scientific barriers and pushing the limits of research. Clearly, too many years without physical bodies badly impaired their ability to correctly deduce what would happen when you give a guy supergenius intelligence, scientific training, Infinite Ambition (literally...), and government funding.
Lol. Nice resume, I was wondering about that too, because even Wikipedia now has the "Nanoha Takamachi" section with a footnote about 'the White Devil' and how characters that get hit by her attacks 'suffer' character development, lol...
Nanoha's "befriending" has pretty much transcended the series itself. ;)
...I don't recall actually hearing what Shiro's job was anywhere in canon (Sound Stage maybe?), only that he was badly injured. The family dojo remains intact, of course, but unlike Triangle Heart I don't think we ever see them being anything more than ordinary martial artists as opposed to "go out in the world and slice up Clover Organization bad guys in real, honest-to-goodness combat."
But I like it as if they do. :D
In the Onsen episode, shiro says something like " "Quite a bit of time has passed, huh? Well... you and the kids don't need to worry about me anymore. From Now on, i'll only the the midoyira inn owner" " and when you couple that with Shiro's body that has some pretty awesome scars...
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8003/scarsq.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/i/scarsq.jpg/)
Triple_R
2009-08-07, 17:05
Genetically programmed, apparently. Jail was created by the Council (i.e., the brains-in-a-jar part of the Council) to do their Mad Science bidding, breaking down scientific barriers and pushing the limits of research. Clearly, too many years without physical bodies badly impaired their ability to correctly deduce what would happen when you give a guy supergenius intelligence, scientific training, Infinite Ambition (literally...), and government funding.
This brings up a bit of an ethical concern for me. Is it really right to put Jail into what looks to me to be a maximum security lock-up for being who he was programmed by the Council to be?
Granted, he's still a major threat, but you'd think they'd look for ways to genetically cure him maybe, and also give him more merciful jail accommodations.
synaesthetic
2009-08-07, 17:30
This brings up a bit of an ethical concern for me. Is it really right to put Jail into what looks to me to be a maximum security lock-up for being who he was programmed by the Council to be?
Granted, he's still a major threat, but you'd think they'd look for ways to genetically cure him maybe, and also give him more merciful jail accommodations.
I don't remember anything from the show specifically saying that Jail was an artificial human.
I do recall the brains talking about how they made him what he is today, but that could mean anything from actual creation as an artificial human or corruption from an ordinary researcher to mad scientist.
DezoPenguin
2009-08-07, 18:19
I don't remember anything from the show specifically saying that Jail was an artificial human.
I do recall the brains talking about how they made him what he is today, but that could mean anything from actual creation as an artificial human or corruption from an ordinary researcher to mad scientist.
Check page 14 of Ch. 12 of the StrikerS manga--Jail specifically states that he's an artificial creation ("From the time that I was born in that tank..."). He even lampshades how the Brains tweaked his psyche.
Triple_R
2009-08-07, 18:26
Check page 14 of Ch. 12 of the StrikerS manga--Jail specifically states that he's an artificial creation ("From the time that I was born in that tank..."). He even lampshades how the Brains tweaked his psyche.
He's actually a tragic figure then. I genuinely feel a bit sorry for him.
This brings up a bit of an ethical concern for me. Is it really right to put Jail into what looks to me to be a maximum security lock-up for being who he was programmed by the Council to be?
He is locked not because of that. But because he LIKES it that way. Numbers were also programmed - but half of them decided to change path. And did. Bad upbringing is not a reason to leave dangerous* person to roam free.
*Dangerous in "will do" department, not "power" one. Full-power Hayate as my neighbor is ok. Depowered Jail on wheelchair, without henchmen and without funding is not.
Triple_R
2009-08-07, 18:53
He is locked not because of that. But because he LIKES it that way. Numbers were also programmed - but half of them decided to change path. And did. Bad upbringing is not a reason to leave dangerous* person to roam free.
*Dangerous in "will do" department, not "power" one. Full-power Hayate as my neighbor is ok. Depowered Jail on wheelchair, without henchmen and without funding is not.
So you're saying that they've given him chances at rehabilitation, but he's turned them down?
So you're saying that they've given him chances at rehabilitation, but he's turned them down?
Actually i don't think they did... he is too dangerous. But he would decline them anyway - with TSAB having mind reading to verify his seriousness at that.
Takamura Mamoru
2009-08-08, 01:42
To quote from StrikerS episode 20:
"The genius you found, created and raised. With the knowledge of a lost world and infinite greed within him, the pride of Al Hazard.
Development Codename: Unlimited Desire *Jale seen with a manic grin* Jail Scaglietti.
The moment you created him and gave him power, your fate was sealed. No matter what chain you put around his neck, or what prison you put him in... A power you cannot master will bring about your destruction."
Looks like the good Jail went a bit out of control, which the brains didn't expect. Sorta like Hitler, people thought they could control him.
arkhangelsk
2009-08-08, 05:41
He is locked not because of that. But because he LIKES it that way. Numbers were also programmed - but half of them decided to change path. And did. Bad upbringing is not a reason to leave dangerous* person to roam free.
*Dangerous in "will do" department, not "power" one. Full-power Hayate as my neighbor is ok. Depowered Jail on wheelchair, without henchmen and without funding is not.
To be fair, Jail did have some impressive combat capabilities himself, remember?
As for the whole "Jail is programmed" argument, well maybe, but in that case you can't really punish anyone, since everyone's actions can be expressed as being ruled by his "programming" (a mix of nature genetics and nurture environment) and by the time he actually commits his crime he is arguably already "programmed" to do so.
That's the theoretical argument of rehabiliative justice, which the TSAB does use generously. However, most people assume we actually have free will despite our upbringing and genetics (our programming). If you assume humans actually have free will, then Scarlietti MUST be responsible for what he's doing, despite his programming or whatever.
There is of course, also the pragmatic "national security" argument
Triple_R
2009-08-08, 08:08
To be fair, Jail did have some impressive combat capabilities himself, remember?
As for the whole "Jail is programmed" argument, well maybe, but in that case you can't really punish anyone, since everyone's actions can be expressed as being ruled by his "programming" (a mix of nature genetics and nurture environment) and by the time he actually commits his crime he is arguably already "programmed" to do so.
Genuinely nice try, but I disagree. Normal human genetics being passed down through typical procreation never gives someone "unlimited desire". Something that extreme has to be artificially programmed into a person's genes, and greatly undermines their ability to self-restrain themselves. It's like a person being born alcoholic due to their mother drinking heavily while she carries the child to term - under these unique and extreme circumstances, it's not really fair, in my mind, to hold a person entirely responsible for their actions.
However, if they can't somehow fix Jail's programming, I can understand why he's not allowed to go free.
synaesthetic
2009-08-08, 09:43
Jail is kept in... well, jail... not due to guilt or innocence, but simply because they just don't know what he'd do if he was loose.
Jail may not be completely responsible for his own actions as he was nothing but a pawn of the brains, but that hardly makes him any less dangerous or fucking scary.
Plus even though the brains created him, they didn't seem to restrict his free will at all, considering how he instructed Due to kill them--not to mention his entire plan was aimed squarely at destabilizing and subjugating the Midchildan TSAB system.
Looking at things that way... Jail's actions are his own responsibility. He isn't just a puppet of the late but not lamented TSAB High Council--much of his actions were committed of his own volition.
He's insane, definitely. Goes with the whole Mad Scientist territory. But insanity doesn't automatically equal innocence, even though a lot of liberal defense attorneys seem to think it does.
Genuinely nice try, but I disagree. Normal human genetics being passed down through typical procreation never gives someone "unlimited desire". Something that extreme has to be artificially programmed into a person's genes, and greatly undermines their ability to self-restrain themselves. It's like a person being born alcoholic due to their mother drinking heavily while she carries the child to term - under these unique and extreme circumstances, it's not really fair, in my mind, to hold a person entirely responsible for their actions.
However, if they can't somehow fix Jail's programming, I can understand why he's not allowed to go free.
Unlimited Desire was a codename for Jail, nothing like that was ever programmed into him. His 'greed' was simply something that was shared among many Al Hazardians (after all, the greed for knowledge and power is what lead to their destruction). In other words, it was no fault of the brains, and thereby no excuse.
Triple_R
2009-08-10, 15:53
Unlimited Desire was a codename for Jail, nothing like that was ever programmed into him. His 'greed' was simply something that was shared among many Al Hazardians (after all, the greed for knowledge and power is what lead to their destruction). In other words, it was no fault of the brains, and thereby no excuse.
Thanks for the clarification. I have less problem with the treatment of Jail now because of it.
Password
2009-08-10, 17:54
Unlimited Desire was a codename for Jail, nothing like that was ever programmed into him. His 'greed' was simply something that was shared among many Al Hazardians (after all, the greed for knowledge and power is what lead to their destruction). In other words, it was no fault of the brains, and thereby no excuse.
Hmm... Doesn't chapter 12 of the manga have Jail mentioning that his desire "could have been something moulded into me"? I think it's more of a 'maybe' than a definite 'no'. (The name of "Unlimited Desire" does imply that one of the things he was supposed to have is massive ambition)
Hmm... Doesn't chapter 12 of the manga have Jail mentioning that his desire "could have been something moulded into me"? I think it's more of a 'maybe' than a definite 'no'. (The name of "Unlimited Desire" does imply that one of the things he was supposed to have is massive ambition)
Considering that dream involved the destruction of the TSAB and the death, even if that were a 'yes' we know that this is not a blame on the part of the TSAB. Supporting the opposite though, is Due, who mentions the greed in relation to Al Hazard.
Which of course opens the possibility that the 'greed' was molded into Jail's original by scientists of Al Hazard itself, and that this 'program' was merely copied along with the rest of Jail. Though this is relying on far to many maybe's.
It is a location. I wasn't really clear on what I meant. :p
Rising Dragon
2009-08-10, 18:33
It is a location. I wasn't really clear on what I meant. :p
Yeah, I figured that when I saw your clarification, so I ended up deleting my post since it was unneeded. Sorry.
Password
2009-08-10, 18:51
Considering that dream involved the destruction of the TSAB and the death, even if that were a 'yes' we know that this is not a blame on the part of the TSAB. Supporting the opposite though, is Due, who mentions the greed in relation to Al Hazard.
Which of course opens the possibility that the 'greed' was molded into Jail's original by scientists of Al Hazard itself, and that this 'program' was merely copied along with the rest of Jail. Though this is relying on far to many maybe's.
I was thinking something more like the TSAB moulding the desire of pursuing scientific research to its limits into him, with that leading to his dream for the destruction of the TSAB. You know, unforeseen cause and effect thing due to the TSAB high council underestimating the ambition and pride of someone given the knowledge of Al Hazard/Alhazred/'whatever its official english name is'. >>
Which, hmm, is probably what you just said <<
Can you cut TSAB part? Brains =/= TSAB.
synaesthetic
2009-08-11, 04:19
Uh... the brains are the Administration's High Council... why would they be cut out? They don't just control Midchilda's government.
Mostly because their acts concerning Jail were done without the rest of the Bureau's knowledge, much less consent. Saying that the TSAB was responsible for Jail would be like saying the TSAB was planning to freeze Hayate.
Rising Dragon
2009-08-11, 04:57
Mostly because their acts concerning Jail were done without the rest of the Bureau's knowledge, much less consent. Saying that the TSAB was responsible for Jail would be like saying the TSAB was planning to freeze Hayate.
Well if all else failed, they were certainly gonna ice the poor girl. :uhoh:
synaesthetic
2009-08-11, 05:07
The Administration as a whole isn't corrupt, but Gil Graham, Regius Gaiz and the High Council show that individuals within the Administration can and will be corrupt.
Just like any other government in the history of forever.
Well if all else failed, they were certainly gonna ice the poor girl. :uhoh:
If all else failed Hayate would ice herself.
synaesthetic
2009-08-11, 05:13
According to Chrono that wouldn't have worked anyway. Sealing it would just leave it conveniently somewhere another powerful shady character could find it.
Rising Dragon
2009-08-11, 05:14
Actually, my statement was a euphemism for the TSAB killing Hayate if everything else failed. Guess it was lost on some of y'all. =X
arkhangelsk
2009-08-11, 05:27
Don't forget the 100 million or so Japanese in the Arc radius!
Were they? Last I checked, nobody raised any objection to letting Nanoha fight her. They didn't pull her back and say 'let's Arc her while we can!' but let the girl fight. They were even willing to gamble everything on a plan that could just as easily have doomed them all as it could have saved them.
Heck, icing the master was never even part of the plan. Arresting the master, yes. Icing the master, no.
synaesthetic
2009-08-11, 05:31
I was under the impression that Graham intended to freeze Hayate and the Book when they Unisoned after the book was completed. Hence the Lieze twins provoking Hayate.
arkhangelsk
2009-08-11, 05:41
Genuinely nice try, but I disagree. Normal human genetics being passed down through typical procreation never gives someone "unlimited desire". Something that extreme has to be artificially programmed into a person's genes, and greatly undermines their ability to self-restrain themselves.
Regardless of the source of Scarlietti's persona (by the way, while he clearly is an extremist by the standards of the modern, law-abiding First World or Middie denizen, he's not really that extremist by the standards of countless naturally procreated terrorists, and few would suggest much mercy for those), the question still comes down to whether you believe in free will.
Believing in free will means, in principle, that whatever the genetic (even deliberate) or indoctrination you may have received, you are still expected to use your free will to CHOOSE to be a law abiding citizen.
If you believe that it is possible for programming to completely override your free will, then arguably you don't believe in it. The "severity" might be different. For example, one might be programmed only to go so far as being a pickpocket, while another a murderer and the third a full blown terrorists, but they are all controlled by their programming and thus should not be punished - by the time they committed their crime, they had as much choice as a stereotypical machine in their next action.
Of course, the second position is hardly indefensible, but it is a bit arbitrary to just decide certain "levels" of programming should be excused while insisting that another of programming must be overridable by "free will".
synaesthetic
2009-08-11, 07:13
There should really be no argument at all. Canon shows that Scaglietti did have free will--he betrayed his masters, even instructed Due to kill them.
If they had stripped him of his will and completely mentally dominated him, he would have been incapable of betraying them.
So he was perfectly aware of what he was doing. It was of his own volition. There's no wallbanger in sentencing him to prison for the rest of his life.
hachi_go93
2009-08-28, 02:02
for me~
Fate T.Harlaown-awesome n adorable,dunno how to describe-
she has speed n pro in fighting,not to forget
kawaii n hot
Yagami Hayate-has wonderful power n outfit,plus
an adorable leader n sort of hillarious
Erio Mondiel-so young,so little,so cute yet so strong
Ginga Nakajima-one of my favourite onee-san,plus
her device has awesome design
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