Nanoha StrikerS - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[Vivio Testarossa]

Does anyone know if familiars age?

[Tempy]

Does anyone know if familiars age?

No. A familiar's existance is tied to their master's life, not age.

[motaku96]

Personally, this was my favorite of the three series. I liked that Nanoha and the gang from the first two series acted as mentors to the new guys. It allowed for great character development from the forwards while still keeping Nanoha in the middle of everything. (I've been getting tired of shows(there are quite a few) with some upstart teen that is a complete retard but somehow manages to become the strongest thing around(stronger than the adults that trained him even) through sheer dumbluck and willpower.) It also showed a lot of growth from the characters. Since the older characters had already dealt with their internal problems in earlier seasons, they could just concentrate on being really mature and cool characters in this one. Oh and Nanoha and Fate's strength is so ridiculously high. It's awesome seeing them in action and saving the forwards but also letting the forwards deal with the weaker foes so that they get to show off some skills too.

[Evil Rick]

Oh and Nanoha and Fate's strength is so ridiculously high. It's awesome seeing them in action and saving the forwards but also letting the forwards deal with the weaker foes so that they get to show off some skills too.

I have to agree with this

[zrdb]

Having just marathoned both MGLA and MGLNA's and now this I have to say they are among the better magical girl series I've seen-one thing that really bothered me was the high amount of pedo stuff in the 1st series, this last one was quite good and 26 episodes gave the characters and storyline time to grow and properly develop-although a couple of characters were never developed much-overall quite a decent series to waste some time watching.

[zrdb]

I mostly enjoyed the show-it gets an 8 out of 10 possible points from me.

[itanshi1]

http://www.mania.com/make-your-case-to-funimation_article_113050.html

vote for strikers to be licensed state-side please ^^

[Icehawk]

Finally got around to completing this series. It's been an interesting journey following the Nanoha story, and I will be missing it. I liked how this one advanced the time frame into the beginning of Nanoha's adult life and brought in some interesting new characters and further developed the lore. In the end though, I give it an 8 on this rating, but it actually feels better to give it more of a 7.8 or so as it does have some noticeable issues that keep it from being a top tier series IMHO.

The main gripes I have with the show are that they almost had too many characters and weren't able to balance them all properly. The pacing of the show really suffered at times and so there was alot of missed potential on the character development front with some of the secondary ones. This isn't really suprising, and they could have done alot worse, but it still drags the series down more than it should. As well, being a NanoFate supporter, I would have preferred to see more development on that side of things, but the creators have decided to stick to the "mindless middle" and leave it up to us to bitchfight over the issue. :heh:

On the matter of Jail Scaglietti, he was a good villain, but I disliked how they had go and make him an overtly "mad scientist" type so much, it just really felt forced and unnecessary. I prefer my villains when they are consistantly cool and calculating untill the end, untill they finally realize they were either dead wrong or when they realize they are finally about to get their ass handed to them on a silver platter, pretty much like Quattro did :)

But anyways, with the new "4th season" being constrained to a manga format it seems, I'm a little dissappointed. I dont usually have the will to bother following scanlations and so I don't know if I will continue with the story when that finally comes around, but we'll see I guess, the Nanoha-verse is still a fun and interesting one to play in :)

[fallendrgmaster]

Out of the three series Strikers is my favorite.

On the technical side I had no problem, with animation or sound, but I'm easily pleased with pretty pictures and big explosions :D

On the storyline, I again was pleased and nothing was really jarring to me except the whole Jail clones, I mean sure he is crazy, but it seemed a little over the top and dark for the series.

My small problem was character development, I guess series length is always an issue but their are some many interesting characters and not enough on them...I guess their is always more to come with the sound stages, and stuff like Vivio's own manga (I think).

On another note, something like the limiter I felt, where explained enough for me, I've seen similar such things done before, but other setting type things, like a lack of description on the Saint Church, or the new world they are in...I mean earth is pretty easy to figure out, but there seemed so little information on Mid-Childa.

All in all Great Series: 8 out of 10

[Archon_Wing]

I completed this series a while back, but with the upcoming movie it drew me back here, and I might as well comment on StrikerS.

A's set a standard for action that would just be very hard to live up to. So StrikerS had a long uphill struggle, and being the first Nanoha series to have 26 episodes made things even harder, as people were expecting a ton more action.

I felt that StrikerS tried to do too much. StrikerS's plot is far more complex then the plot of the previous two series and Nanoha can't just befriend whoever isn't behaving. You had ancient conspiracies, bureaucratic incompetence, and lots of background information. Unforunately, more isn't always better. Tons of plot points were made and I'm not sure what was the point of them.

StrikerS had two main failings:

The Villain- Jail spaghetti or whatever. He was just utterly lame. They just didn't have any threat to them, or any depth. Compare to Fate in season one or the Wolkenritter in season 2. He's just incredibly generic and bland, and the only good to ever come out with him was to be bitchslapped by Fate. Sure they trashed the base (which is also when the series gets better) but for a lot of it you could just have them sport an evil mustache and laugh a lot.


Characters - Too many of them. True they were mostly delightful but many of them were just forgettable. I ended up simply forgetting about most of the series, because well, I didn't care. Everyone ended up having very shallow development because of this, except for Nanoha, maybe.

Note that these two problems start to go away near the end. Quattro proves menacing enough, and we do begin to see some character development.

One small thing that irked me is that the TSAB seemed hilariously incompetent. It may be because the old brain guys were corrupting stuff, but why the heck does the fleet (which can travel dimensions) take so long to reach the planet? Wouldn't they have immediately started sending support the moment section 6 got sacked? I might have overlooked something, so this isn't that big of a deal.

However, the series manages to redeem itself in the last third as the story finally gets into shape. I found myself rewatching episodes 17-24 a lot because there was a lot of action, and they managed to cram everything in without looking too rushed. We've also seen Nanoha grow a bit as a character, as we've never really seen her that sad before and her incredible determination to care for everyone. Fate didn't get as much screen time as I liked, but last part also shows what a long way she's come since the first season, changed from a confused, shy person with no identity to someone who's finally found her place.
Teana's, Subarau's, Erio's/Caro's fights were also well done, if somewhat short. You get the feeling that the training had actually taught them something. Not just combat skills, but growth as a person. And the series also ends with the "after the end" montage they used in the last 2 series which wraps up the series nicely.

Overall Rating: 6/10 Unfortunately, this series doesn't really leave me with much else to say as to me a whole lot of nothing happened for a while. But the awesomeness of the last part shows a lot of heart, and for that I can say this series isn't bad at all. It's quite like the 1st season which started out bad but absolutely rocked near the end. It doesn't do good plot-wise, but for some good old fashion Nanoha action (aka, top-tier anime action), Strikers finally does deliver.

[xiaoamy]

I wonder why would anyone vote for "painful"? Must have been people that don't like magical stuff...

Nanoha is one of the best anime I have ever seen the only down part is Zafira didn't transform into his human form in StrikerS

[KitsuneNineTails]

7/10.

I really liked Nanoha and A's (would have given them both 9/10). Both were very compelling stories where the "bad guys" weren't really your run-of-the-bill villain. Instead, the stories provided us with a lot of sympathy for Fate and the Wolkenritter and made a true sympathetic hero out of Nanoha trying to solve the problems instead of just mindlessly attacking the other side.

Strikers was a neat action/adventure series that had our favorite characters return to lead the way for the new generation, but it didn't have that same emotional impact until the last few episodes with Nanoha vs. Vivio. The beginning, especially, dragged on for far too long before the plot wheels started turning, and we got introduced to WAY too many characters right off the bat, many of whom weren't even important enough to give a name.

The middle of the series really started to pick up, and perhaps they should have just started there, in media res, rather than fill up 6-8 episodes with essentially opening narrative.

Music was good, but the OP and ED just couldn't keep up with Nanoha or even A's, IMHO (Innocent Starter and the Nanoha OP is one of my all-time favorites, and Eternal Blaze is not too far behind).

Once the story got going around Ep. 8 or 9, we saw the character development begin and it got nicely involved, and the series had some great moments (Nanoha blasting through half the Cradle to get to Quattro was too awesome for words. The look on Quattro's face when she realized the inevitable...), but the slow start took away some points.

And... what the hell happened to poor Yuuno and Arf (especially Arf)? Relegated to a cameo and backstory after giving Raising Heart to Nanoha and after being Fate's loyal friend since childood? Too cruel.

Ciao!

[fukarming]

4/10

To me Nanoha SS is a disappointment and a failed anime. I really like Nanoha and Nanoha A's and I think they are revolutionary animes (anime that change how people view a genre). The original nanoha change the way we see magical girl genre and and A's combine cute magical girls with exciting actions nicely. However, Nanoha SS attempts to expand the world view and setting but I believe it failed spectacularly.

I won't repeat many criticism other already discussed (slow start...etc) so I would only state a couple points that not many others have stated.

1. Poor animation
The Nanoha series sell moe girls. I don't expect them to have excellent fighting scene (though A's fighting scene are done very nicely) but it is unforgivable if the animations are poor when they are selling the girls. In ep 7 it is supposed to be a treat to the audience to see the ACE wear dress gowns, but instead it looks like a freak show.

2. Enemy and excitement
My major criticism, though is the lack of excitement throughout the whole series. Nanoha SS introduces AMF, which supposed to limit the power of the ACE and make the fight more exciting but I just failed to see how the enemy utilized this technology. The ACE still blast through the Numbers like there are no tomorrow even under AMF.
However, that is not the worst. The worst part of the series is that the Heroes (mobile 6) are so much stronger than the enemies (Numbers + Lutecia + Zest + Agito). It is probably the only anime that shows such a huge difference of power between the good and the evil. There are three major skirmish between the sides:

ep 11,12
Mobile 6 - 4 rookie. 3 aces, Vita, Reinforce II, Ginga
Enemy - couple of numbers, Lutecia, Agito
Result: Complete victories of the mobile 6.
It is not just mobile 6 win a complete victories, it is how overwhelming they win it. Nanoha easily block a fire beam barely prepared, Hayate used a map weapon trying to decimate the enemies. In short, I think Vita sum it up nicely - It is like bullying children.

ep 16,17
Mobile 6 - 4 rookie, Vita, Ginga, Zafira, Shamal, Reinforce II, Fate (at the very end)
Enemy - Everyone
Result: Victory for Enemy
It seems the bad guys win in this match, however it should be noted that The Top 3 Ace and Signum didn't participate in the battle (Fate only comes in when the battle already settled) so the mobile 6 is at less than half force. Jail Scaglietti used very nice tactics rather than brute force to win this battle.

Final battles
Mobile 6, Everyone + sister Schach + Verossa minus Hayate
Enemy, Everyone + Ginga + Vivio
Result: Complete victory for mobile 6

If Jail Scaglietti is such a genius, he should try to forge a peace treaty after winning the ep 16,17 battle when he had the upper hand. Unfortunately for him fictions require a final battle that involve everyone and marks his doom.
The only battle that shows mobile 6 in trouble is the one involve Tia and Subaru, and it is rather poor command by Hayate that causes this. Nanoha proof unmatched throughout. She struggles against Vivio only because she is searching Quattro thus not utilizing full force. When she found Quattro, she simply blast her away from afar, marking the overwhelming firepower between the two side (It is like a tank versus an arrow user); when fate becomes serious, she cut through the top numbers and Jail like there laser cutting through butter, all in the while Hayate, the highest ranking mage in mobile 6, not involved in any battles. I feel sorry for Scaglietti as he played his cards perfectly, only to be overcame by superior firepower.

Even at the very beginning of the series I have no doubt mobile 6 will squash anything that thrown at them. The firepower of Scaglietti's organization might even be less than the book of darkness in A's. I honestly couldn't feel mobile 6 can fail.

The nanoha series sell two things, cute girls and exciting battles. When SS failed to deliver either, I believed that means it failed.

[Takamura Mamoru]

I'd give StrikerS 7/10

The same score I'd give the first Season.

For the most time, it just wasn't that interesting. Tons of characters we don't want to see, uninteresting villains (Who seriously remembers the numbers, apart from Quattro?) and failed action. Scaglietti never seemed threatening or special.

He wasn't as purely evil as Precia was, he had no backstory, hardly any real motivation and he definitely didn't have a fascinating development like the Wolkenritter.

It was unimpressive. That is, most of the time. Episode 17 is the first real awesome episode of StrikerS. The finale, starting around Episode 21 finally goes back to the original awesomeness of Nanoha, something that should have happened much earlier already.

In all honesty, the finale was really epic. But it can't make up for boring periods of training and uninteresting babble. Why focus on new characters we don't want to see when we have the old cast as adults now?

The only new main character that had a real development was Teana. Unfortunately, I didn't really care for her, but that's just a personal taste. Subaru was quite cool, however.

I can't rate the season as standalone, I have to rate it while keeping the series as a whole in mind. And it was unable to reach the relative high expectations I had after the godlike win that was Nanoha A's.

[Triple_R]

I liked Jail a lot as a charismatic evil scientist villain in the Professor Tomoe and Dantalion (Shakugan no Shana) mode.

However, I totally agree with the two posts above me when it comes to how non-threatening the antagonists were. If there's an anime sequel (as opposed to prequel) to Nanoha Striker S, then I really hope we see more powerful and threatening antagonists/villains next time.

[Evil Rick]

I agree.

What Nanoha needs, is a villan at the level of Dr. Doom or the Joker. :)

[Proto]

Really? Personally I've loved the more humanistic approach the Nanoha series have taken towards its villians. In LotGH Yang Wenli's words: "Most battles in this universe aren't between good and evil, but between one good and another good".

[RadiantBeam]

I agree. I liked how human the antagonists of Nanoha have been. It paints some very interesting shades of gray for the viewer to consider.

[Evil Rick]

They key word here is that I used the word "Level" not "like"

When I said at the level of Dr. Doom and The Joker, I was meaning of a villan that really causes you that level of impression and somehow respect, even admiration for the reason behind his actions, not a villan exactly like those 2 buddies. :heh:

[Archon_Wing]

Really? Personally I've loved the more humanistic approach the Nanoha series have taken towards its villians. In LotGH Yang Wenli's words: "Most battles in this universe aren't between good and evil, but between one good and another good".

I'd have to say that's one of the biggest draw of the series to me. They're not just shooting practice for Nanoha. ;) The villains had a more tragic tone to them.

[GlancingReverse]

Yes, I do like how the villans have decent motivation, I don't like how they never seem to put up a decent fight once the heroes get around to figuring things out.

[Archon_Wing]

That is a problem with a lot of anime. Typically once the hero finds the solution, the villain's like "THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE" and dies no matter how big his advantage was. The presence of the power limiting plot devices also annoyed me because then it just seemed like negligence on the part of the good guys rather than the antagonists being effective. So they wouldn't have stood a chance if Nanoha/Fate/Hayate were at full power? I understand there was probaly safety in mind, but having our heroes being defeated by bureaucracy a good plot does not make.

And of course I don't really think well of the TSAB, I mean how can the fleet be late by like 10 minutes when they had so long to prepare? Maybe they really shouldn't have stopped for donuts. :D

[DezoPenguin]

That is a problem with a lot of anime. Typically once the hero finds the solution, the villain's like "THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE" and dies no matter how big his advantage was. The presence of the power limiting plot devices also annoyed me because then it just seemed like negligence on the part of the good guys rather than the antagonists being effective. So they wouldn't have stood a chance if Nanoha/Fate/Hayate were at full power? I understand there was probaly safety in mind, but having our heroes being defeated by bureaucracy a good plot does not make.

And of course I don't really think well of the TSAB, I mean how can the fleet be late by like 10 minutes when they had so long to prepare? Maybe they really shouldn't have stopped for donuts. :D

To be fair to Chrono and his friends, until the Cradle rose, they had no idea what they were supposed to be preparing for--and if Jail had the proper information from within the TSAB (either actually passed on to him by his backers or obtained by Due through more traditional espionage means), he probably knew where the fleet was and what its response time would be when the Cradle was launched.

As for the limiters, yeah, that was a fairly ridiculous plot device, and the stated reasons for them being placed on was even more ridiculous. I can just see the U.S. Navy functioning that way: "Yes, the Sixth Fleet has too many missile cruisers, and the other admirals are jealous, so we'll only give them one Hellfire each unless they get special authorization to carry more, which special authorization can only be given once each by three people unless the entire Joint Chiefs signs off on it." I can only hope that the real reason for the limiters was that the Brains and Regius Gaiz deliberately threw roadblocks in the path of the Harlaown-St. Church group to reduce their combat effectiveness since, after all, it was their black op that Riot Force 6 was formed to investigate. Then it's "defeated by conspiracy" instead of "defeated by bureaucracy." :D

[Archon_Wing]

To be fair to Chrono and his friends, until the Cradle rose, they had no idea what they were supposed to be preparing for--and if Jail had the proper information from within the TSAB (either actually passed on to him by his backers or obtained by Due through more traditional espionage means), he probably knew where the fleet was and what its response time would be when the Cradle was launched.

Good point. Since Jail did have contacts high up there, they might have been forced to prepare for every possibility. I just found it odd how there's nothing defending a planet that's just been attacked like that. But then, if they stationed their whole fleet at Midchilda (is that the place?) I guess it could it could lead to weaknesses elsewhere that could be exploited.

I can only hope that the real reason for the limiters was that the Brains and Regius Gaiz deliberately threw roadblocks in the path of the Harlaown-St. Church group to reduce their combat effectiveness since, after all, it was their black op that Riot Force 6 was formed to investigate. Then it's "defeated by conspiracy" instead of "defeated by bureaucracy." :D

I hope so too. Nanoha's not really the kind of story for political commentary. :D

[al103]

As for the limiters, yeah, that was a fairly ridiculous plot device, and the stated reasons for them being placed on was even more ridiculous. I can just see the U.S. Navy functioning that way: "Yes, the Sixth Fleet has too many missile cruisers, and the other admirals are jealous, so we'll only give them one Hellfire each unless they get special authorization to carry more, which special authorization can only be given once each by three people unless the entire Joint Chiefs signs off on it."

*Headbangs repeatedly* WHAT IN "IT'S CHEATING THAT HAYATE USED" you do not understand? With they powerful mages shortage they f*ing shouldn't have allowed 3 aces in same unit of that importance LIKE AT ALL. Limiters are for cases when somebody wants to be in the same unit for personal reasons. It's like renaming cruiser training ship to give it to some not-so-important coast guard unit. Also if you remove limiters and high-level mages limit "headhunting" will be on so big rise that all TSAB will have units that gather all high level mages - and it's NOT good because they can be only in one place at the same time.

[Keroko]

The fact that it was explained doesn't change that it was a fairly silly plot device.

[al103]

The fact that it was explained doesn't change that it was a fairly silly plot device.
Limiters is very plausible when "maximum mage power in unit" law is in effect. That law is also highly plausible. And where they are silly? Actually what was silly plot device is "they all are in the same unit"... and limiters/that law they are cheat for would have a good place in setting even without that.

[Keroko]

'maximum mage power in unit' in itself is a silly plot device. Especially in light of the A's manga, where Leti promoted the major combat power of a bunch of powerful mages in one unit.

The only reason the limiters where there was to explain why Nanoha & Co didn't just blast through all the enemies while the rookies were having trouble. Now that the rookies are at the level the main characters (albeit the lower level) I fully expect Limiters never to be mentioned anywhere in Force.

[DezoPenguin]

'maximum mage power in unit' in itself is a silly plot device. Especially in light of the A's manga, where Leti promoted the major combat power of a bunch of powerful mages in one unit.

And militarily stupid. Seriously, now the TSAB's plan is, "sorry, we can't assign two powerful mages to this unit, because you're only allowed to have one. What, there's an enemy that requires more power? Tough luck, we don't allow you to have a unit with that kind of power." It's like saying that a commando unit can't be made up of SEALs or Green Berets or other expert personnel, but must include a certain minimum of untrained grunts.

RF6 is supposed to be a special, cross-branch unit designed to deal with extreme Lost Logia cases.

*Headbangs repeatedly* WHAT IN "IT'S CHEATING THAT HAYATE USED" you do not understand? With they powerful mages shortage they f*ing shouldn't have allowed 3 aces in same unit of that importance LIKE AT ALL. Limiters are for cases when somebody wants to be in the same unit for personal reasons. It's like renaming cruiser training ship to give it to some not-so-important coast guard unit. Also if you remove limiters and high-level mages limit "headhunting" will be on so big rise that all TSAB will have units that gather all high level mages - and it's NOT good because they can be only in one place at the same time.

That doesn't make any sense at all, to put it bluntly.

Okay, so you're not allowed to have three aces in one unit? Why?

The only reason that makes any sense for such a law is that there are a limited number of high-ranked mages in the TSAB military, and they want to distribute them through the armed forces.

Strapping a limiter on Nanoha doesn't make her an A-ranked mage. It just means she's an S+ mage who can't use her power.

Your reasoning that "Hayate used the limiters to trick the TSAB" does not hold together. Is the rest of the TSAB so stupid as to not KNOW Nanoha and Fate are aces? If they want to distribute Aces through the military enough that they pass a law enforcing it, then it's doubly stupid to not only gather the Aces together but also limit their effectiveness when they're there.

To sum up: A MILITARY FORCE DOES NOT DELIBERATELY PREVENT ITS CAPITAL FIGHTING UNITS FROM BEING ABLE TO FIGHT. How dumb do you think the TSAB is???

Keroko is right. The power limiters are a stupid plot device designed to give the rookies more screen time and create artificial tension by preventing the unit captains from just blowing through low-level opposition, letting Nanoha, etc. "level up" for their final battles in classic shonen anime tradition. It's entirely based on meta elements and forcibly shoehorned into the story plot.

[Triple_R]

Really? Personally I've loved the more humanistic approach the Nanoha series have taken towards its villians. In LotGH Yang Wenli's words: "Most battles in this universe aren't between good and evil, but between one good and another good".

I agree. I liked how human the antagonists of Nanoha have been. It paints some very interesting shades of gray for the viewer to consider.

I disagree with you both, actually. The main reason being that one of the key facets to Nanoha's character is how she tries (usually successfully) to reform antagonists. It would be nice to see her try to reform somebody with out many sympathetic qualities for a change: a Joker (or at least a Two-Face) to challenge her Batman.

However, that's not my main point: my main point is simply that the antagonists in Striker S never really posed much of a basic physical challenge to Nanoha. Put simply, they rarely came off as a genuine threat.

Simply more powerful villains, be they Joker-esque evil or more sympathetic, would be my main desire.

[al103]

1. "Maximum power limit in unit" law was created because "elite all-powerful unit" is good when you have solid base for them to stay on. Without this law it will either result in small number of elite units that gathered most powerful mages and overall bunch that can't do anything in serious crisis... scratch that - anything at all. And it is much worse then don't having "spearhead" elite units at all. Or it will result in bureaucratic nightmare when every transfer of AA and higher mages would require enormous amount of paperwork and time. Or most likely both. Low-level unit erosion is very bad at TSAB as it is.
2. Limiters are official cheat to that law or it would again return to bureaucratic paper nightmare because people are people with all they quirks and such thing as transfer because of personal reasons can require such shortcut for it being on one side quick and on other side personal and not strong mage hoarding. (And you want to allow such transfers, because if strong mage say "to hell with it" and retires from TSAB career... ups!)
3. And RF6 is NOT elite unit. IIRC it barely passed as experimental one. And it's NOT in any way part of Mid defense btw - except in case of emergency in which... limiters were thrown out of window immediately.

What, there's an enemy that requires more power?

And for that there is time-proved answer. "Then we will call another unit." BTW RF6 had not 3 but 5 S class and another one passed as "civilian" (Shamal).

[Keroko]

except in case of emergency in which... limiters were thrown out of window immediately.

In other words, practical use of the limiters: Zero.

Nanoha is still an S-rank mage in a unit with a lot of AA+ members. To be frank, having the bureaucracy accept this excuse is one of the silly things about it. Sure, Nanoha is limited to AA-rank out of combat, but when pandemonium happens, the entire unit hops back to elite status with the push of a button. In other words: Whether they have or don't have limiters changes nothing.

[al103]

In other words, practical use of the limiters: Zero.


No. 99.9% of time units are NOT in emergency mode and limiters are active. So there is no sense to hoard high class mages if you are not waiting for emergency... which RF6 did. Limiters are not invented for RF6 after all.

[Keroko]

Limiters are active whenever there isn't an emergency, and are disabled whenever there is... explain to me what the use of these limiters is then.

Again, there are still high-level mages hoarded in one unit. Limiting does not make them lower level. If the entire point is to make the units equal in power, then those limits would remain on even in emergency situations. As it stands now, its no different than giving a unit special gear, and have them store it away when needed. Just because its stored away doesn't mean all other squads don't know about it, or will find out when that unit enters the fray.

[al103]

Limiters are active whenever there isn't an emergency, and are disabled whenever there is... explain to me what the use of these limiters is then.
Everyday work? Having better mages help at it too. And multidimensional crisis is not everyday encounter even for TSAB. Better mages with limiters aren't very helpful in "my unit is better then yours" game and "we did best of all so i will get promotion" game, and that "games" are why "power limit" law was made in first place.

[MeisterBabylon]

Simply put, this is but one of many flaws in portrayals of TSAB that pretty much convinces us that it doesn't deserve to rule all known realms... but somehow do. So in a sense, I believe that this is a case of "something's broken, but it does not affect the whole body".

Let's start with limiters. This limiter thing was invented by Riot 6 to circumvent the operational guideline, by no means anyone would bother hardcoding it into law or even a constitution; laws and constituitions bother with other kinds of matters.

Back to the guidelines: I've always believed that Regius & the High Council obstructed the formation of Riot 6 specifically because it would directly threaten their pet project. Of course they can't say that, so they use every other "legitimate" excuse, however remote, to clamp and crimp on them. This could be:

- Repeatedly highlighting their "ex-criminal" status: I can imagine Auris and other like-minded officials bringing it up every time Riot 6 was mentioned)

- Giving them little to no equipment or personnel: The empty halls in a base in the middle of nowhere without a forward firebase or platform like Asura was. Instead, they got a platoon of cooks to serve their enormous appetites! :heh:

- Pressing on them with ridiculous rules and regulations that could've been waived easily: Limiters.


Hence, this "1 Ace per battle-force" got pressed on them hard, and in order to go around it, the Riot 6 simply followed the Rules As Written rather than Rules As Intended, which was via the limiters, since the guidelines forgot to state whether or not it applied to their permanent or transient magic rank.

In any other situation, had let's say a high-level task force was needed to combat a powerful group of rogues that has been so far running amok in a precinct as Leti once did, or even if Regius cobbled together Aces doggedly loyal to him into a force that served Riot 6's "purpose", this would not have been a problem. The Brass would've had some grumbles, but otherwise approved it for the greater good. But not Riot 6; I believe this entire fiasco has all been a solely political exception made on Riot 6 by Regius and the High Council pulling strings.

I can go on and list all the other things in canon that can be explained by this top-down conspiracy, but ultimately that this is why the High Council system of rule ultimately fails this dystopia. As much as canon depicts TSAB as a utopic world order, I refuse to see it as such. But if Force and Vivid show that the Bureau is able to change, there is hope for this useless organization yet.

In the mean time, expect the fallout from the Jail Incident to increase, however the canon works downplay it. I've come now to see canon releases as propaganda released by TSAB for viewing of it's people, and as such deliberately leaves out certain unsightly details. You could even blame the excessive fanservice as a means for the Bureau to blind their people to the darker truth! :p

However, the spin doctors aren't perfect; they mention some things and blot out the others, not realizing that it causes everything to not make total sense. Once you take the canon that you are given with a pinch of salt, you will begin to see things in greater clarity, how such conundrums can exist in spite of the stability of the greater picture.

"This city fears me. For I have seen its true face."

[Arkeus]

Let's start with limiters. This limiter thing was invented by Riot 6 to circumvent the operational guideline, by no means anyone would bother hardcoding it into law or even a constitution; laws and constituitions bother with other kinds of matters.


]

cough cough

http://asnano.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/nanoha-strikers-dvd-3-booklet/ or :


出力リミッター／能力限定 – Output Limiter / Ability restriction
The set total number of mage ranks within each unit is basically an ambiguous standard, depending on connections or left to the whims of a Human Resources officer, which is used to prevent any particular unit from amassing powerful mages. Unlike equipment, this measurement can fluctuate (mage ranks can go up or down depending on examinations and updates). Since “Rank = the level of ability” is not true, these Limiter settings can be used to accommodate the rank restrictions to some extent, and there is an tacit understanding of this loophole. Limiters for high ranking mages normally restrict only output, and can only be released in extreme situations after receiving approval. This is similar to how a normal organization is restricted from carrying excessive weaponry during normal missions, only using such equipment in times of emergency.

[al103]

What with this utopia/dystopia thing? TSAB is not one or other. It's "realistic" bureaucratic organization that tries to be on the side of good and usually succeed, but not ideal, have it's flaws and sometimes fail miserably. And i don't see any problem with that. Kha, you sound like person that found that his parents have *oh, noes* SEX with each other. Or that his father/mother is not ideal saint.

unrelated: in post like this i just love my avatar...

[Keroko]

Everyday work? Having better mages help at it too. And multidimensional crisis is not everyday encounter even for TSAB. Better mages with limiters aren't very helpful in "my unit is better then yours" game and "we did best of all so i will get promotion" game, and that "games" are why "power limit" law was made in first place.

Which doesn't change the elite weaponry comparison (which, coincidentally, even the booklets make).

Sure, in every day work it prevents the Aces from going S-rank full power... but then again, in every day work the Aces wouldn't go S-rank full power anyway. Use of the limiters once again becomes head-tilting.

The main use of limiters was to prevent jealousy between units. However, in case of an emergency, the limiters are removed, which means that the unit that has a lot of powerful limited mages will still steal the show in the event of a real emergency. I fail to see how this helps the 'jealousy' in any way.

[Arkeus]

The main use of limiters was to prevent jealousy between units. However, in case of an emergency, the limiters are removed, which means that the unit that has a lot of powerful limited mages will still steal the show in the event of a real emergency. I fail to see how this helps the 'jealousy' in any way.

you are taking it the wrong way.

The limit of rank in unit is to prevent jealousy *and* hogging power.

Limiters are a acknowledged loophole in cases where there is high chances of the unit actually needing that power in case of emergencies.

Also, the limiters still can't be taken off an unlimited numbers of time (it was said in StrikerS that the limier could only be taken off once every few months or something like that).

[Keroko]

The great irony is that limiters prevent neither. Even limited, a unit with 4 S-rankers is still a unit with 4 S-rankers. It's still hogging power, but just keeping it bottled until they've got an excuse to use it. Ergo, its still jealousy inducing. This is another of the silly things about the entire limiter plot-device.

And the limiter time thing was just that it'd take time for Chrono to regain permission to release Hayate's limiter. Chrono and Carim are from the Navy and Saint Church, after all. Hayate was under the command of the Ground Forces, so they needed permission themselves in order to release Hayate's limiter. Though they can impose a time limit on the release itself (Chrono gave Hayate 120 minutes in episode 11), such a limit is optional, as no such limit was imposed when Carim released the entire RF6 in episode 20.

[Iromaru]

Well I always thought that limiters in StrikerS were a really stupid plot device, but there is one plausible explenation for their existence. TSAB leaders may fear that really strong mages within their ranks could team up and destroy or take over their organisation. Considering that a single AAA rank and above mage has more firepower that a medium sized Earth country this fear is uderstandable. Don't forget that 90% of Mid citizens aren't mages and 99% of mages wouldn't be able to even scratch an AAA ranked mage. Considering that the vast majority of TSAB soldiers are nothing more than some levitating guys with plasma lances and weak personal shields and their army still use things like helicopters or tanks Nanoha and other elite mages are just as powerfull monsters on Mid as they would be on modern day Earth. If we imagine top class mages as TSAB equivalent of nuclear arsenals it's understandable they want to have some kind of supervision and control over them. I bet normal citizens wouldn't feel safe knowing there are 10y old little girls with enought firepower to vaporise a city running around.

On top of that RF6 gathered many (if not most) of the very best and strongest TSAB mages under the command of a former criminal. If Hayate suddenly decided to turn against TSAB and all her friends followed her she could very well take over the whole organization and become the new Empress or something like that.

That's why I think limiters themselves aren't such a bad idea, but the way they were used and explained in StrikerS is plain terrible. They are there to prevent jealousy between units... Really now are TSAB officers little kids or something... ah wait some of them are :P

If they were instead showed as tools in corrupted political games between TSAB admirals and factions or as means of forced control of powerfull mages who refused to join TSAB they could become a very good plot device.

[Arkeus]

The great irony is that limiters prevent neither. Even limited, a unit with 4 S-rankers is still a unit with 4 S-rankers. It's still hogging power, but just keeping it bottled until they've got an excuse to use it. Ergo, its still jealousy inducing. This is another of the silly things about the entire limiter plot-device.

And the limiter time thing was just that it'd take time for Chrono to regain permission to release Hayate's limiter. Chrono and Carim are from the Navy and Saint Church, after all. Hayate was under the command of the Ground Forces, so they needed permission themselves in order to release Hayate's limiter. Though they can impose a time limit on the release itself (Chrono gave Hayate 120 minutes in episode 11), such a limit is optional, as no such limit was imposed when Carim released the entire RF6 in episode 20.

uh... yes, obviously. Limiters aren't supposed to prevent anything.

Limiters are a loophole in the law that's suppose to prevent things.

Hence, limiters is a way to "cheat" when the brass think things can go to hell.

Also, i am pretty sure Nanoha and Fate's limiters weren't "free" either. We only saw them talking about Hayate's limiter because they didn't need to repeat themselves.

and, no, the climax fight was a bit different as they didn't really care about procedure at this point.

I am pretty sure you can't go around using an emergency where the birth-world of TSAB can get razed as something to prove the limiters rule are not obeyed even most of the time.

[MeisterBabylon]

cough cough

http://asnano.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/nanoha-strikers-dvd-3-booklet/ or :


出力リミッター／能力限定 – Output Limiter / Ability restriction
The set total number of mage ranks within each unit is basically an ambiguous standard, depending on connections or left to the whims of a Human Resources officer, which is used to prevent any particular unit from amassing powerful mages. Unlike equipment, this measurement can fluctuate (mage ranks can go up or down depending on examinations and updates). Since “Rank = the level of ability” is not true, these Limiter settings can be used to accommodate the rank restrictions to some extent, and there is an tacit understanding of this loophole. Limiters for high ranking mages normally restrict only output, and can only be released in extreme situations after receiving approval. This is similar to how a normal organization is restricted from carrying excessive weaponry during normal missions, only using such equipment in times of emergency.I'll have to quote Tk1337 here:

"Canon or not, this is nothing but bullshit!"

Which force, real or fiction, carries excessive weaponry into a situation knowing full well they are never going to use it?! After all, why would you waste your men's strength carrying all that extra gear?! :eyespin:

You bring specialist gear because you know you are going to need it somewhere, be it a TOW missile for a tank, C4s for doors, frag grenades for clearing rooms, etc, stuff that your M203 rifle isn't meant for. You don't need executive orders to ready them either. Sure they have safeties, but that is so that you don't accidentally fire them off. If limiters were there so that high-power Aces could limited their power output so that they don't go and kill themselves from magical strain, maybe there might be some validity in the reason (it's still pretty bad, your body seldom has the capacity to outdo itself!).

But no, 7Arcs go and say things that don't make sense! :p Furthermore, places questions on the Bureau's capacity to administrate. :rolleyes:

What with this utopia/dystopia thing? TSAB is not one or other. It's "realistic" bureaucratic organization that tries to be on the side of good and usually succeed, but not ideal, have it's flaws and sometimes fail miserably. And i don't see any problem with that. Kha, you sound like person that found that his parents have *oh, noes* SEX with each other. Or that his father/mother is not ideal saint.

unrelated: in post like this i just love my avatar...You don't know me 'nuff, bro. I wanna be a parent, and I wanna have sex so much--

*is whacked by Anita's flying dictionary*

:eyespin:

Bottomline, parents were never depicted to be saints. If we see them as perfect, it's our fault.

But this is not the case for the Bureau. It rules all the worlds, that is an idealistic perfection in itself! The Bureau has to be absolutely perfect at everything in order to do that and still have everything running smoothly as seen in canon. If it could make a mistake, it would've never come to existence in the first place!

But it can. And so, with the stupidity it demonstrates, it's very easy to guess that somewhere, outside the cozy glasshouse of Midchilda, the fire is burning, and the Jail incident has set a precedent, if not already by Orussia and how many countless warring barons leftover from when the Belka empire collapsed. But we don't see this, simply because we are being controlled to see things as such.

Things are too perfect. Heroines always win in the end, no matter the flaws in tactics. This is not reality, this is propaganda.

you are taking it the wrong way.

The limit of rank in unit is to prevent jealousy *and* hogging power.

Limiters are a acknowledged loophole in cases where there is high chances of the unit actually needing that power in case of emergencies.

Also, the limiters still can't be taken off an unlimited numbers of time (it was said in StrikerS that the limier could only be taken off once every few months or something like that).And that just made the whole concept of limiters even more doubtful. You're willing to risk losing an Ace to a situation that she could've handled a couple of days earlier when her limiter is off, and now she's dead because her permit was on cooldown. Real smart, right there.

And don't tell me to hope for the best due to probablilities. A good unit going to battle is prepared for 99% of the scenarios it could possibly encounter, requiring executive orders for use of frontline firepower is inexplicable.

Well I always thought that limiters in StrikerS were a really stupid plot device, but there is one plausible explenation for their existence. TSAB leaders may fear that really strong mages within their ranks could team up and destroy or take over their organisation. Considering that a single AAA rank and above mage has more firepower that a medium sized Earth country this fear is uderstandable. Don't forget that 90% of Mid citizens aren't mages and 99% of mages wouldn't be able to even scratch an AAA ranked mage. Considering that the vast majority of TSAB soldiers are nothing more than some levitating guys with plasma lances and weak personal shields and their army still use things like helicopters or tanks Nanoha and other elite mages are just as powerfull monsters on Mid as they would be on modern day Earth. If we imagine top class mages as TSAB equivalent of nuclear arsenals it's understandable they want to have some kind of supervision and control over them. I bet normal citizens wouldn't feel safe knowing there are 10y old little girls with enought firepower to vaporise a city running around.

On top of that RF6 gathered many (if not most) of the very best and strongest TSAB mages under the command of a former criminal. If Hayate suddenly decided to turn against TSAB and all her friends followed her she could very well take over the whole organization and become the new Empress or something like that.

That's why I think limiters themselves aren't such a bad idea, but the way they were used and explained in StrikerS is plain terrible. They are there to prevent jealousy between units... Really now are TSAB officers little kids or something... ah wait some of them are :PTSAB have demonstrated themselves to be such children, in every useless sense of the word, especially since they fear another child pressing a button and making them go boom! :p

Jokes aside, I'd like to point out that the Aces themselves are still only mortal. They can destroy a lot of real estate and could probably tear GFHQ a new one, but after that, the combined might of the entire multiverse bearing down on them will overwhelm them. No way they are going to survive multiple Arcs going off at once from several battlegroups of ships suddenly jumping out from warpspeed from every possible angle. Even if they can, the TSAB combined arms can keep firing and firing and firing by cycling their weapons, and the Aces will eventually tire from all that bombardment to eventually make a mistake, or fail an invulnerable save.

TSAB aren't shy of glassing a city to bits if the threat is big enough. Uminari almost got silicated in A's after all.

If the top of the top mages are nukes, then there'd better be quicker means for them to be unlimited. Having to stop and call for permission to use their power could mean that a sniper could take them out in a single shot before they can be unlimited. Top mages should've never been deployed in the frontlines as such, and should only be deployed after being unlimited, going by the logic of things. But no, we see the Captains in operation with limits, and then have them pause to have the limits removed, during which a properly-placed railgun slug would've cleaved them.

Limiters are just plot-devices protected by other plot devices. But since they exist, we have to accept that they are there, and work things out from there.



...If they were instead showed as tools in corrupted political games between TSAB admirals and factions......exactly. All we have been given as "canon information" are simply poor excuses. This is what is actually happening, we just don't see it happening in the manga or anime.

I'll explain. First, let's turn the chessboard over and look at the silly reasons given for limiters from another perspective. What is the purpose for all this? Self-protection? We've pretty much demonstrated otherwise. For the safety of the mage involved? No mention was ever made. So, in the end, what's in it for me as a TSAB official to gimp my troops as such? Nothing, simply because it was all a ruse.

I have several SS-down-AA Aces in my arsenal, and they are loyal to me. I'm in a high-ish place, and have many friends in here who are also using this to bring high-level Aces together, despite the rule. Between us, we already have garnered military and civil powers over a huge chunk of dimensions. And we hold the High Council hostage as we already know their dark plans thanks to our vast dealings, but let them be as long as they let us be. After all, we are all making sure that peace remains in the dimensions, just that we're making ourselves fat with power in the process. It's a win-win-win situation.

If anyone asks, we laugh it off as silly. But if someone got close to the truth with evidence, we simply break out the spin doctors, charge them with threatening the safety of the dimension, pop limiters and obliterate them before anything can be verified. Limiters come back on, spin docters spin on praising the Aces having protected all Humanity, peace resumes.

The cycle repeats itself over and over the years until no one could've stood against us. Hayate is rocking the boat, but we can't move just yet. We wait... Oh look! The High Council is now dead! We're in charge boys! And no one knows what's happened! Peace is eternal now...

...but is that really true peace?

~~~~~~

I know it's extreme, and probably never intended as such by 7Arcs, but after putting all the disparate clues together and throwing out the red herrings, this looks most probable. This is one of the many reasons why in order to operate the way they do, TSAB has a lot more going on in the background than we actually know.

[Iromaru]

Jokes aside, I'd like to point out that the Aces themselves are still only mortal. They can destroy a lot of real estate and could probably tear GFHQ a new one, but after that, the combined might of the entire multiverse bearing down on them will overwhelm them. No way they are going to survive multiple Arcs going off at once from several battlegroups of ships suddenly jumping out from warpspeed from every possible angle. Even if they can, the TSAB combined arms can keep firing and firing and firing by cycling their weapons, and the Aces will eventually tire from all that bombardment to eventually make a mistake, or fail an invulnerable save.

TSAB aren't shy of glassing a city to bits if the threat is big enough. Uminari almost got silicated in A's after all.

Of course they would get crushed in the end, if they faced TSAB in normal way. Imagine a group of S class mages as professional terrorists or assasins. They have illusions and polymorphing magic, they have teleportations and can travel between worlds in minutes and they can destroy a city with ease. Not to mention they can get into TSAB HQ without problems since they work there and make the first strike. And TSAB fleet is slow to react and travel as shown by StrikerS, high class mages would easily outmaneuver it with hit and run tactics. Not to mention Precia showed that it's not really hard to disable their ships.

Hayate and friends would (probably) never do such a thing, but somebody will someday. A single AAA class mage would very likely be able to take down the whole TSAB interdimensional HQ by blasting a SB like attack near it's core. TSAB high command and most of it's fleet would be gone in a single strike, along with many of it's best mages (who would die like flies with their limiters active).

StrikerS showed TSAB to be so incompetent it's a miracle they still exist.

[spawnofthejudge]

And militarily stupid. Seriously, now the TSAB's plan is, "sorry, we can't assign two powerful mages to this unit, because you're only allowed to have one. What, there's an enemy that requires more power? Tough luck, we don't allow you to have a unit with that kind of power." It's like saying that a commando unit can't be made up of SEALs or Green Berets or other expert personnel, but must include a certain minimum of untrained grunts.

RF6 is supposed to be a special, cross-branch unit designed to deal with extreme Lost Logia cases.



That doesn't make any sense at all, to put it bluntly.

Okay, so you're not allowed to have three aces in one unit? Why?

The only reason that makes any sense for such a law is that there are a limited number of high-ranked mages in the TSAB military, and they want to distribute them through the armed forces.

Strapping a limiter on Nanoha doesn't make her an A-ranked mage. It just means she's an S+ mage who can't use her power.

Your reasoning that "Hayate used the limiters to trick the TSAB" does not hold together. Is the rest of the TSAB so stupid as to not KNOW Nanoha and Fate are aces? If they want to distribute Aces through the military enough that they pass a law enforcing it, then it's doubly stupid to not only gather the Aces together but also limit their effectiveness when they're there.

To sum up: A MILITARY FORCE DOES NOT DELIBERATELY PREVENT ITS CAPITAL FIGHTING UNITS FROM BEING ABLE TO FIGHT. How dumb do you think the TSAB is???

Keroko is right. The power limiters are a stupid plot device designed to give the rookies more screen time and create artificial tension by preventing the unit captains from just blowing through low-level opposition, letting Nanoha, etc. "level up" for their final battles in classic shonen anime tradition. It's entirely based on meta elements and forcibly shoehorned into the story plot.It's stupid, but how stupid are the kind of people who place emphasis on politicking anyway?

[MeisterBabylon]

There's a reason why we call politicians well-speaking idiots. :p

[Keroko]

uh... yes, obviously. Limiters aren't supposed to prevent anything.

According to StrikerS, they are supposed to prevent jealousy between units.

[Nagumo]

According to StrikerS, they are supposed to prevent jealousy between units.

That has got to be the worst reason for a military/police force I had ever heard.

Seeing that there are Lost Logia's that are borderline otherworldly horrors, government backed mad scientists, and dangerous remnants of lost civilizations running around in their universe. I mean, what the hell?

You know, all the infighting of the TSAB kind of reminds me how the Japanese Imperial military (Imperial Navy vs. Imperial Army) had a seriously deficient relationship. I wonder at times if the writers were trying to tap into that...

[Keroko]

That has got to be the worst reason for a military/police force I had ever heard.

Hence why some of us consider it a silly plot device.

You know, all the infighting of the TSAB kind of reminds me how the Japanese Imperial military (Imperial Navy vs. Imperial Army) had a seriously deficient relationship. I wonder at times if the writers were trying to tap into that...

Considering this is a Japanese anime, and the writers most likely just went with what they knew instead of doing deep research... I think that might be possible.

[spawnofthejudge]

Hence why some of us consider it a silly plot device.



Considering this is a Japanese anime, and the writers most likely just went with what they knew instead of doing deep research... I think that might be possible.So the question becomes whether they were trying to make it look silly/stupid, or because they needed a silly plot device.

[Nya~n]

or they weren't really paying attention when writing up the storyboard

[Keroko]

The real reason they created is was obviously as an explanation why the Aces didn't just steamroll the enemy. Storyboard... or rather scriptwise, I'd say they were on a time limit, and just went with what they had.

[MeisterBabylon]

Sometimes I wonder if things would be better off if 7Arcs just stuck to the good ol' formula of whizbangs and pantsu rather than try to do a half-assed 26 episode essay on the wider world. Because the number of episodes have doubled, the pain of it all was squared.

The only good thing I suppose was to give doujin groups and fandom light novelists like us stuff to chew on... just that we're also chewing on them for mucking it up. :p

[Evil Rick]

Sometimes I wonder if things would be better off if 7Arcs just stuck to the good ol' formula of whizbangs and pantsu

Well, the market is very competed in that sense. >_>

[GlancingReverse]

All they'd need is to throw in some very convincing Nanoha/Fate hints, and they'd have a decently sized audience, if the past seasons have anything to tell.

[MeisterBabylon]

They already did that as an excuse to run 26 episodes of chaff. Giving more isn't going to cure the hubdrub it was to watch through some parts, and I was so fatigued that when we got to the action, it felt meh...

[Keroko]

All they'd need is to throw in some very convincing Nanoha/Fate hints, and they'd have a decently sized audience, if the past seasons have anything to tell.

Actually, that's one of the things they could have toned down, in my opinion. The amount of NanoFate in StrikerS, or rather the timing of those moments, made me rub my eyes and go 'alright, we get it, now can we get back to the story?'

I'm quite curious how Force will deal with this. Vivid is obviously leaning on the NanoFate, I wonder if they'll reduce the NanoFate with Force? The two series are very much opposite of one another in terms of setting after all...

[Iromaru]

Actually, that's one of the things they could have toned down, in my opinion. The amount of NanoFate in StrikerS, or rather the timing of those moments, made me rub my eyes and go 'alright, we get it, now can we get back to the story?'

The thing is there's not much to get back to. Let's be honest here, StrikerS main story suck. I'm sure I'd like StrikerS much more if instead of showing us pointless talking, training, badly animated drone/cyborg bashing and Jail making weird faces they would give us more info about life on Mid or ancient Belka, TSAB internal politics and RF6 members hanging around together on their free days. A friendly match between Nanoha and Fate A's style would be much better than any fight we saw in StrikerS.

I'm quite curious how Force will deal with this. Vivid is obviously leaning on the NanoFate, I wonder if they'll reduce the NanoFate with Force? The two series are very much opposite of one another in terms of setting after all...

I think Force will have little if any NanoFate at all. Nanoha and Fate aren't main characters anymore so I doubt they will do more than occasional ass kicking.

[Arkeus]

According to StrikerS, they are supposed to prevent jealousy between units.

No.

According to StrikerS, Mage are distributed evenly to prevent jealousy amongst other things.

However, Limiters is an acknowledged way to bypass that, though shari comment that it's "playing dirty".

[Keroko]

Hence, limiters are used to prevent jealousy.

[Arkeus]

Hence, limiters are used to prevent jealousy.

NO

Limiters are used to cheat our way out of laws that are used to prevent jealousy.

[Keroko]

And hence, limiters are used to prevent jealousy.

It's quite simple really. The rules are in place to prevent jealousy. Breaking the rules causes jealousy. Using limiters allows you to break the rules without causing jealousy. Hence, limiters prevent jealousy.

[MeisterBabylon]

...which, of course, since people don't work that way, hence why limiters are dumb because it won't prevent jealously eventually.

[DezoPenguin]

...particularly when the people being limited are famous throughout the military and therefore of jealousy-inducing celebrity status regardless of how big the pink beams o'doom are at any given time. Hence, as repeatedly stated, limiters are dumb.

[Rising Dragon]

If you ask me, limiters on Nanoha and Fate just mean the girls will learn new and more creative ways of befriending stuff. Which makes them that much more dangerous once they have the limiters removed.

[Proto]

Let's be honest here, StrikerS main story suck.

Being honest here, I think that's only your own opinion. Personally I liked the main concept behind Strikers' plot, even if I'm not all that satisfied with the execution.

[GlancingReverse]

Yeah, StrikerS had a perfectly fine plot, except it was brought down by some bad execution and far too much focus on the Forwards. I mean, they were okay, but I think most of us went into the season to see Nanoha and Fate.

[RadiantBeam]

Yeah, StrikerS had a perfectly fine plot, except it was brought down by some bad execution and far too much focus on the Forwards. I mean, they were okay, but I think most of us went into the season to see Nanoha and Fate.

Well, I thought learning about the Fowards was pretty cool, actually. It was fun to see Fate and Nanoha in the role of mentors to the younger members of the cast.

[DezoPenguin]

Yeah, StrikerS had a perfectly fine plot, except it was brought down by some bad execution and far too much focus on the Forwards. I mean, they were okay, but I think most of us went into the season to see Nanoha and Fate.

Cast Overload really became a problem with StrikerS. In 26 episodes, it introduced more named characters than MGLN and A's did in their 26 episodes--and then used all of them alongside most of the returning cast from the first two shows. New villains are to be expected, but for example did there need to be so many new support staff in RF6? Mariel could have easily filled in for Shari's role, and Amy for at least one of Griffith and Luceno, and Alto is kind of superfluous. Likewise, Ginga's entire purpose in the story was to give Subaru an emotionally-charged one-on-one, but as Tea's battle showed, it wasn't necessary to have it be personal to be interesting (for example, they could have ditched Erio and Caro entirely and had Subaru take on Lutecia). It's not that any of the characters are necessarily bad, it's just that with so many of them, few could really get the development time necessary to really appreciate them and whenever they got a shot at the limelight it just broke up the flow of the story.

[MeisterBabylon]

And then there's the excellently-done Towards the Terra with its 200 characters. :p It's just 7Arcs' poor execution that caused the Cast Overload.

[Iromaru]

Personally I liked the main concept behind Strikers' plot, even if I'm not all that satisfied with the execution.

Yeah the concept wasn't all that bad, but since it's execution was plain terrible StrikerS main plot was just bad overall. But yeah that's just an opinion.

Cast Overload really became a problem with StrikerS. In 26 episodes, it introduced more named characters than MGLN and A's did in their 26 episodes--and then used all of them alongside most of the returning cast from the first two shows. New villains are to be expected, but for example did there need to be so many new support staff in RF6? Mariel could have easily filled in for Shari's role, and Amy for at least one of Griffith and Luceno, and Alto is kind of superfluous. Likewise, Ginga's entire purpose in the story was to give Subaru an emotionally-charged one-on-one, but as Tea's battle showed, it wasn't necessary to have it be personal to be interesting (for example, they could have ditched Erio and Caro entirely and had Subaru take on Lutecia). It's not that any of the characters are necessarily bad, it's just that with so many of them, few could really get the development time necessary to really appreciate them and whenever they got a shot at the limelight it just broke up the flow of the story.

100% true. Another problem IMO are Strikers villains. Compared to Fate, Precia and Wolkies they were pathetic and there were far too many of them. Some Numbers might have been developed a bit in bonus materials but in StrikerS itself they were nothing more than talking drones with faces (maybe except Quattro). Of all StrikerS villains I liked only Lutecia, and only because I liked this whole bug summoner concept.

[Arkeus]

And hence, limiters are used to prevent jealousy.

It's quite simple really. The rules are in place to prevent jealousy. Breaking the rules causes jealousy. Using limiters allows you to break the rules without causing jealousy. Hence, limiters prevent jealousy.

and you are, once again, ignoring half the argument.

Using Limiters don't allow you to break the rules without causing jealousy, it's a 'flaw' in the system that still cause jealousy, but a flaw that is abused in a few cases.

If you see the ep in question, Shari clearly says using limiters is "playing dirty", and "playing dirty" clearly means it's not something people like.

It's much more likely that cheating in this way is tacitly allowed because very few people would beg for a limiter (so in the grand scheme of things, there are few uses of this loophole), and thye need a way to bypass laws in emergency without creating a debacle.

We have seen RF6 disbanded a few months after jail's incarceration, so that abuse of the laws clearly wasn't long-term. It's quit likely the use of so many limiters was there only because all the high-ranking mages in questions flt they were needed, and there was some high-ranking brass behind them.

[Keroko]

and you are, once again, ignoring half the argument.

Using Limiters don't allow you to break the rules without causing jealousy, it's a 'flaw' in the system that still cause jealousy, but a flaw that is abused in a few cases.

If you see the ep in question, Shari clearly says using limiters is "playing dirty", and "playing dirty" clearly means it's not something people like.

Which is utterly in contradiction with what Rein says. "In cases where many excellent mages are in one unit, magical power limiters are used to keep the peace."

In other words: Limiters are used to prevent bitterness between units. It's only after that where Shari says 'there are still some who play dirty.' This would suggest that the line is not in correlation with limiters being used to keep peace, but rather people ignoring these rules altogether.

[Archon_Wing]

Yeah, StrikerS had a perfectly fine plot, except it was brought down by some bad execution and far too much focus on the Forwards. I mean, they were okay, but I think most of us went into the season to see Nanoha and Fate.

And that became a huge problem, since they tried to do some of each-- cater to fans of the previous seasons while trying to develop this new story, and the result... is a bit debatable. I think they were really being ambitious in creating this grand world with all sorts of plot threads, but most of them weren't really elaborated upon or hit the ground with a thud. It had great potential, but perhaps not in the span of 26 episodes especially when you have all those important training sessions. :uhoh:

Like many sequels IMO, StrikerS carried some of the same problems its predecessors -- particularly the first season-- but they tend to get more magnified. Season 1 was pretty aimless and it seemed like the show didn't know what it wanted to be. But about midway through, they found a focus and turned the series into what it is known today. A's basically channeled up what was good about season 1 and expanded upon it, which is probably why that series' flaws can be mostly ignored (at least for me)

In StrikerS, we see a similar identity crisis happening, except this one lasted longer since the series was longer. And it did a lot better when it finally did settle on something. Not as impressive as the previous seasons, but not bad either.

[DezoPenguin]

And that became a huge problem, since they tried to do some of each-- cater to fans of the previous seasons while trying to develop this new story, and the result... is a bit debatable. I think they were really being ambitious in creating this grand world with all sorts of plot threads, but most of them weren't really elaborated upon or hit the ground with a thud. It had great potential, but perhaps not in the span of 26 episodes especially when you have all those important training sessions. :uhoh:

*snip*

In StrikerS, we see a similar identity crisis happening, except this one lasted longer since the series was longer. And it did a lot better when it finally did settle on something. Not as impressive as the previous seasons, but not bad either.

That dovetails with something I've been noticing--the more I know from the Sound Stages, the manga, the subsequent series, and so on, the more I appreciate what's going on in StrikerS. Characters get fleshed out (or just more screen time), the world gets better developed, and so on and so forth. As an initial anime, the series did too much stage-setting for the franchise, so that the follow-ups within that franchise could better function (SSX, for example, I absolutely adored), but the series itself had notable flaws.

(I will say, though, that for me personally once the show reached the Augusta Hotel episodes the good started to outweigh the bad. The initial six episodes were badly paced and mishandled what they were trying to do, but the move into Teana's personal issues stepped things up well. I recall, though, when I saw the next episode preview for ep. 10, I almost was ready to scream, "No!!! Not more filler!?!?!?"--and thankfully, that's where the actual plot got going. ;) (mean of them to surprise us as much as it did Subaru and Tea!)

[Keroko]

I agree that the amount of characters in StrikerS was not really the main problem, and could have been workable. Season 1 tossed a fresh cast off 13 characters at us, and A's tossed 10/11 new characters our way with only 13 episodes each. StrikerS threw roughly 30 new characters our way with 26 episodes, which is only slightly over double the characters season 1 gave us, with twice the space to develop them. Out of those 30-something characters, roughly ten of them would not require much screentime as they were mostly background characters that served to either be people explaining tidbits of the past (Megane, Quint) or simply being there to show RF6 is more then just our heroes (Griffith, Mariel).

This gives us 26 episodes to develop a cast of around 20. More then enough with the proper pacing. However, pacing is often the most difficult part of any media product, and its hard to get right. Sometimes you trip, which is what Seven Arcs did with StrikerS. They tripped, wasted valuable screentime on training episodes and fanservice, and left the characters that were victimized by this to be picked up by future media productions.

[DezoPenguin]

I agree that the amount of characters in StrikerS was not really the main problem, and could have been workable. Season 1 tossed a fresh cast off 13 characters at us, and A's tossed 10/11 new characters our way with only 13 episodes each. StrikerS threw roughly 30 new characters our way with 26 episodes, which is only slightly over double the characters season 1 gave us, with twice the space to develop them. Out of those 30-something characters, roughly ten of them would not require much screentime as they were mostly background characters that served to either be people explaining tidbits of the past (Megane, Quint) or simply being there to show RF6 is more then just our heroes (Griffith, Mariel).



I can't argue your premise, but I think you're lowballing the cast lists a bit. :heh:

MGLN: Nanoha, Yuuno, Fate, Shiro, Momoko, Kyouya, Miyuki, Arisa, Suzuka, Raising Heart, Arf, Bardiche, Noel, Falin, Chrono, Lindy, Precia, Amy (18)

A's: Hayate, Signum, Vita, Shamal, Zafira, Gil, Lotte, Aria, Letti, Dr. Ishida, Reinforce, Laevatein, Graf Eisen (not counting Klarwind since it doesn't get a speaking role) (13)

StrikerS: Subaru, Teana, Erio, Caro, Ginga, Reinforce Zwei, Vice, Griffith, Luceno, Alto, Genya, Mach Caliber, Cross Mirage, Strada (again, not counting the Boost Devices since they don't...I believe...speak), Frederiche, Regius Gaiz, Auris, The Three Great Admirals, The Three Brains, Storm Raider, Jail, Uno, Due, Tre, Quattro, Cinque, Sein, Sette, Otto, Nove, Dieci, Wendi, Deed, Lutecia, Garyuu, Zest, Agito, Laguna, Carim, Verossa, Schach (41...or 43, if each Brain gets to be considered a different person)

And that's just the ones I can remember off the top of my head!

[Keroko]

Yes, well, I generally don't count devices because lets face it, they don't need any development apart from hearing their voice and seeing their forms, which you'll see anyway.

And there are some other minor characters I might forget. :p Still, since most of those are minor characters, the list of major characters -AKA those that need development- still floats around the 20.

And then there is actual development in StrikerS that could just as well have been cut. Now this is the editor in me, but what did Vice's personal development, or heck, the character itself, add to the story? Cut away Vice's drama bits and it has no impact whatsoever on the story. I mean, I like the character, and I like the story, but if you had put me on the editors seat, Vice's backstory would have gone *snip snip* in favor of more important members of the cast.

[Lord Pertinax]

It was good overall, but the problem, as already said is that with 26 episode they were unable to make a good development for the villians and other characters, the brains for example. But, I gave a 7.5-8 to the show.

[Triple_R]

Well I always thought that limiters in StrikerS were a really stupid plot device, but there is one plausible explenation for their existence. TSAB leaders may fear that really strong mages within their ranks could team up and destroy or take over their organisation. Considering that a single AAA rank and above mage has more firepower that a medium sized Earth country this fear is uderstandable. Don't forget that 90% of Mid citizens aren't mages and 99% of mages wouldn't be able to even scratch an AAA ranked mage. Considering that the vast majority of TSAB soldiers are nothing more than some levitating guys with plasma lances and weak personal shields and their army still use things like helicopters or tanks Nanoha and other elite mages are just as powerfull monsters on Mid as they would be on modern day Earth. If we imagine top class mages as TSAB equivalent of nuclear arsenals it's understandable they want to have some kind of supervision and control over them. I bet normal citizens wouldn't feel safe knowing there are 10y old little girls with enought firepower to vaporise a city running around.

On top of that RF6 gathered many (if not most) of the very best and strongest TSAB mages under the command of a former criminal. If Hayate suddenly decided to turn against TSAB and all her friends followed her she could very well take over the whole organization and become the new Empress or something like that.

That's why I think limiters themselves aren't such a bad idea, but the way they were used and explained in StrikerS is plain terrible. They are there to prevent jealousy between units... Really now are TSAB officers little kids or something... ah wait some of them are :P

If they were instead showed as tools in corrupted political games between TSAB admirals and factions or as means of forced control of powerfull mages who refused to join TSAB they could become a very good plot device.

This is personally how I view limiters as well... and, honestly, as much as I like Nanoha and Fate, if I was an everyday Mid citizen, I'd sleep much easier at night knowing that the government's personified WMDs had limiters strapped on them to ensure that if either one went rogue we at least had a manageable crisis on our hands instead of an unstoppable catastrophe.

Like you argued, Nanoha and Fate (and those of their power level) could do some really nasty damage to TSAB and various governments and even basic social structures if they went rogue and decided to lead a rebellion or revolution. The jealousy rationale is simply a pretext for the real reason that limiters are there, and it's a reason that makes pretty good sense to me.




Cast Overload really became a problem with StrikerS. In 26 episodes, it introduced more named characters than MGLN and A's did in their 26 episodes--and then used all of them alongside most of the returning cast from the first two shows. New villains are to be expected, but for example did there need to be so many new support staff in RF6? Mariel could have easily filled in for Shari's role, and Amy for at least one of Griffith and Luceno, and Alto is kind of superfluous. Likewise, Ginga's entire purpose in the story was to give Subaru an emotionally-charged one-on-one, but as Tea's battle showed, it wasn't necessary to have it be personal to be interesting (for example, they could have ditched Erio and Caro entirely and had Subaru take on Lutecia). It's not that any of the characters are necessarily bad, it's just that with so many of them, few could really get the development time necessary to really appreciate them and whenever they got a shot at the limelight it just broke up the flow of the story.

I strongly agree. Sheer numbers is the main weakness of this franchise at this point, and is perhaps my only major criticism of it. In most respects, Nanoha is fantastic. This anime simply has too many background bureaucratic/support characters that are hard to care about since the focus is naturally on the front line fighters and their day-to-day lives. Perhaps you could care about the background characters if there were fewer prominent fighters that each demanded a fair bit of screen-time, but that is not the case here with Fate, Nanoha, Subaru, and Teana all more or less requiring to be on-screen at least 15 to 20% of the time as they are all basically co-main protagonists. There's simply not enough screen time left to develop numerous background characters that you can truly care about.

[Archon_Wing]

This is personally how I view limiters as well... and, honestly, as much as I like Nanoha and Fate, if I was an everyday Mid citizen, I'd sleep much easier at night knowing that the government's personified WMDs had limiters strapped on them to ensure that if either one went rogue we at least had a manageable crisis on our hands instead of an unstoppable catastrophe.

Like you argued, Nanoha and Fate (and those of their power level) could do some really nasty damage to TSAB and various governments and even basic social structures if they went rogue and decided to lead a rebellion or revolution. The jealousy rationale is simply a pretext for the real reason that limiters are there, and it's a reason that makes pretty good sense to me.

Yea, that's how I see them too. Like deadly weapons such as nukes, there must have safety precautions to protect from misuse and malice. So I don't object to their existence. The problem is that the deadly weapons are supposed to deployed as efficiently and quickly as possible when they need to be used. Otherwise, what's the point of even bothering with them? The fact that the whole place could be sacked by a powerful enough group of villains just because Hayate might be on coffee break does not go well. The fact that it can't get released by the time the entire damned place gets sacked, an important character gets kidnapped, and many are injured means there's something really wrong here. It's quite dangerous that the people that can do the job can't. The TSAB level of security is comparable to that of Star Trek, and that's not a good thing. :heh:

In any case, the real reason for them is that there wouldn't be a plot because the villains would be too easy. Mind you, I actually liked the last part of the show, so I don't abhor them that much; some exposition about a conspiracy that hindered the defensive effort would be nice though. In any case, it makes both sides look bad and thus my comment "defeated by bureaucracy".

But hey, painting the TSAB as an incompetent organization could lead to more interesting stories like, I don't know, Nanoha leading a rebellion. :D

[Triple_R]

Yea, that's how I see them too. Like deadly weapons such as nukes, there must have safety precautions to protect from misuse and malice. So I don't object to their existence. The problem is that the deadly weapons are supposed to deployed as efficiently and quickly as possible when they need to be used. Otherwise, what's the point of even bothering with them? The fact that the whole place could be sacked by a powerful enough group of villains just because Hayate might be on coffee break does not go well. The fact that it can't get released by the time the entire damned place gets sacked, an important character gets kidnapped, and many are injured means there's something really wrong here. It's quite dangerous that the people that can do the job can't. The TSAB level of security is comparable to that of Star Trek, and that's not a good thing. :heh:

Yeah, I see your point here. It would be better if there was a 24/7 monitoring team (a team or 2 or 3 rotations) set up at an undisclosed location somewhere that could release the limiters at a moment's notice. They would have their finger on the button, so to speak. ;)




In any case, the real reason for them is that there wouldn't be a plot because the villains would be too easy. Mind you, I actually liked the last part of the show, so I don't abhor them that much; some exposition about a conspiracy that hindered the defensive effort would be nice though. In any case, it makes both sides look bad and thus my comment "defeated by bureaucracy".

But hey, painting the TSAB as an incompetent organization could lead to more interesting stories like, I don't know, Nanoha leading a rebellion. :D

Actually, this would probably be one of the better ways for this franchise to go once it gets back to sequels. Regius is clearly far from your ideal military/political leader. And while many of the officers of TSAB strike me as good, decent people that simply value law and order, I think that the upper echelons of TSAB are more than a bit shady. It's not enough to justify a rebellion at the moment, but the series could easily go that route. If it did, it could make for a good test for Nanoha and all - fighting against an all-encompassing system of countless soldiers and high-tech military hardware instead of against a set target.

You could also get some intriguing internal divisions, much like Civil War over in Marvel Comics. One of the good things about Nanoha is that this is an anime original anime... meaning that the sky's the limits; you're not bound by source material. The anime is the source material.

[Archon_Wing]

Actually, this would probably be one of the better ways for this franchise to go once it gets back to sequels. Regius is clearly far from your ideal military/political leader. And while many of the officers of TSAB strike me as good, decent people that simply value law and order, I think that the upper echelons of TSAB are more than a bit shady. It's not enough to justify a rebellion at the moment, but the series could easily go that route. If it did, it could make for a good test for Nanoha and all - fighting against an all-encompassing system of countless soldiers and high-tech military hardware instead of against a set target.

You could also get some intriguing internal divisions, much like Civil War over in Marvel Comics. One of the good things about Nanoha is that this is an anime original anime... meaning that the sky's the limits; you're not bound by source material. The anime is the source material.

Hmm, they have created such a extensive world to be explored. This would definitely help take advantage of it. We could get glimpses at many diffrent planets and people. I usually never object to concepts (unless it's like something gross lol); usually with enough creativity and determination you can create great stuff from the most ridiculous ideas.

But I hope that they will continue the tradition of having more grey than outright evil like Jail. Ok, Precia was evil, but she was nuts anyways. Good and bad in Nanoha is mostly summarized as one side being Nanoha and friends, and the other side being people she hasn't befriended yet. You will be her friend, whether you like it or not. :D

[GlancingReverse]

So how does Precia fit in? Nanoha never even shot her, not that I would want her to, if you know what I mean.

[Archon_Wing]

I guess she was one of the few that were too crazy beyond redemption. But you never know. Nanoha never had a chance to do it. ;p

[GlancingReverse]

You know, it would be interesting if Nanoha ended up shooting randomly and hit Precia, netting her a new friend, against her will.

"No, stay away! You've traumatized Fate too much to come anywhere near us!"

[Marsala]

I just finished StrikerS right after going through the original and A's. Overall I definitely liked it. Of course, as a fan I find it more entertaining to discuss flaws rather than strengths. (Funny aside: my brother loved the new Star Trek and wanted me to see the movie so we could talk about it. The very first things he mentioned were the plot holes. Typical.)

So what was wrong with StrikerS? Well, aside from a significant time skip and a genre shift almost completely out of Magical Girl territory that probably shook fans (I don't see this as a flaw), the biggest problem was the slow pace at the beginning. It took nearly half the show to get into the real plot. Instead of all the focus on training and fighting Gadgets, the characters should have been thrown in over their heads against human opponents much more quickly. That was what made A's so successful: the immediate threat present from the beginning. There were no battles against human enemies until episode 12, IIRC. And no, Lutecia enhancing Gadgets doesn't count. Anyway, when StrikerS actually properly began its plot with the day off, "That Day" and the grand finale, it worked very well.

A second problem was the lack of a true central character. In hindsight, the main character was Nanoha (surprise). She had the most critical role in the finale with the most dramatic personal development. But the story felt like it should have been about Subaru! As a central character she really suffered in the first half of the show, mainly playing second fiddle to Teana's development, and despite her personal connection to the enemies, she was not very relevant in the final battle at all. Subaru should have been to StrikerS what Hayate was to A's, but instead that plot-critical role went to Vivio.

Overall, it was a good series. Hopefully there will be an animated 4th series; Al Hazard is begging for exploration, especially since Precia and even the real Alicia could return from there.

[roriconfan]

REVIEW TIME

Consider this a review of all three seasons and the 2010 movie.

Nanoha is a mahou shojo that messed with the archetypical formula in an attempt to not bore the viewers with a Sailor Moon rehash. Although that partially did the trick, in the longrun it felt victim of its own inability to change or make use of its own duration.

ART SECTION: 8/10
- The production values are good as far as the artwork goes. Nanoha’s setting blended the modern world with the magic of the past and the technology of the future and thus you are offered three-in-one. It has a certain variety that sets it apart from others of its kind and, when the animators were paid fully, it looked very eye-catchy.
- The characters are all drawn to be cute and most of them are kids for most of the story. Being a mahou shojo means that almost anyone important to the plot is a girl, with funky uniforms and magic gizmos that create all sorts of energy attacks. I can’t say I liked their looks; they were all quite generic and not really memorable. Plus, the animators went for fan service and thus there are lots of scenes where the girls are naked or with underwear. Nothing explicit but one really wonders if this show is for little girls with this amount of fan catering.
- The contemporary Japan areas are very typical and have nothing of interest to look at. The magic devices and the space-time spaceships on the other hand were an interesting combination.
- The problem is that there are too many obvious budget problems and that shows easily with too many use of stiff characters, scrolling panels and reused scenes. And yes, they do a lot of reusing in the transformation and attack parts. Also, the action scenes are to the most part simplistic exchange of energy beams that end up being tiresome after awhile.
- One thing that will not disappoint is the huge amount of lights and energy beams. They are filling the screen with all sorts of shapes and colors and patterns to the point you can faint if you are photo-epileptic. Very eye-catching and helps you to fight the otherwise boring battles.

SOUND SECTION: 8/10
Damn, I rarely find something to write about the sound part. Ok, I had absolutely no problem with it. The voices were not annoying (not too high-pitched to irritate me), the sound effects had an equal variety with the visual ones and the music themes were likable. But not memorable or great for any reason so I cut down some from the score.

STORY SECTION: S1: 5/10, S2: 7/10, S3: 3/10, M: 5/10 (Overall: 5/10)
The story begins in a typical fashion; cute good-hearted girl Nanoha finds Yuuno magic critter and gets powers in order to find something or stop someone. Along the way the story gets more complicating with the addition of an organization that protects the various dimensions from cosmic threats. It sounded very interesting as it blended magic with technology. But the pacing GAH, a complete mess. A major problem with the franchise that made most to give up on it.

- The first season was at first to find scattered spheres from an advanced civilization, and up until the first half it was plain boring. Nanoha and her friends had nothing of interest to fill the slice-of-life moments and the battles were short and simplistic. It is only when her rival Fate is introduced in the story that something good starts to happen. Suddenly she is taken aboard her fuzzy mascot’s spaceship, meats lots of officials and villains with their own spaceship are close by. It was a lot more enjoyable this way but towards the end you could easily see that even this twist didn’t save the story from its genericness. It was mostly about befriending the enemy rather than fighting with wits and the villains pretty much just stormed in and had their way like security didn’t matter. The finale is sweet if you like the power of friendship but otherwise very anti-climactic action-wise.
- The second season is now about finding an evil book that if it charges up fully will create lots of trouble. This season is enjoyable most of the time because it has far more interesting characters, far better action scenes, and in generally far more interesting rivals and objectives. It is otherwise again full of silly moments and again the power of friendship is all that matters in the end. One wonders why the hell do they have all these cool weapon or why they fight in general. Just hug the enemy and cry. But anyways, the second season is to the most part with good pacing.
- The third season is a bloody mess. Since nobody in this series ever dies, new characters are constantly introduced and the older ones are still present. As a result you have a huge cast that needed a lot of fleshing out or at least episodes dedicated to each one individually. Unfortunately most of the plot was nothing but a very slowly developed military operation with lots of pointless action and uninteresting villains. Plus while the duration is now twice as before, instead of using that extra time to flesh out the characters or provide emersion to the story, they just slowed down the pacing and left most of them as stunts and background decoration. IT WAS HORRIBLE!
- The movie is basically a retelling of the first season. You know, better visuals, more action, less plot, and now loli boobs come with nipples. Just for those who saw the series and want to see the same thing all over again with more superficial entertainment and less context.

In all, the main story had something good going but hardly took advantage of its potential and ended up being a half-baked cake.

CHARACTER SECTION: S1: 6/10, S2: 7/10, S3: 2/10, M: 5/10 (Overall: 5/10)
In all honesty, the cast of the franchise is pretty much stock material. They are all archetypes you will encounter in all mahou shojo in general. So all that mattered was to simply have them colorized throughout every season.

- The first season did a good job with what it had. The problem is, it only had two important girls and one secondary male mascot sidekick for twelve episodes. Although they were quite colorful, they were still archetypes and very few to excuse the duration. Otherwise, not bad for a trio.
- The second season adds almost a dozen more to the main and secondary cast and this is where things become interesting. Although nobody is still special for any reason, there is a lot of variety in personalities and their interactions feel more colorful and less bipolar in good guys – bad guys. Rather good in overall.
- The third season blew it to pieces. It introduced even more characters and pretty much didn’t bother to develop or colorize anyone enough. Not only that but now all the main girls are adults working in a military organization. Where did the magical feeling of those little girls go to? They turned from pure hearted children to military personnel; the magic is gone.

The cast was never special in any way but at least the first two seasons had some innocence in them. The third just makes everybody to feel like a footsoldier in some military academy doing his duty. Very distasteful development. Not only that, but the fan service element never left; it was there all the time showing the girls in various forms of undress. That didn’t add context to them; it took away their dignity. And seriously, watching Nanoha’s and Fate’s adult boobs bouncing like that all the time just felt like they became bitches. And wait a second; isn’t this a mahou shojo show? What the hell does a military organization doing here? And where are the romances? Not a single trace of a girl liking a boy… or another girl. Oh sure; lots of yuri innuendos for the doujins but nothing on screen. What is there to spice things about them? Their bonds of friendship? Not enough.

ENJOYMENT SECTION: S1: 6/10, S2: 7/10, S3: 2/10, M: 5/10 (Overall: 5/10)
Well, the characters is all the appeal of the show so my ratings for enjoyment are the same as for them.

VALUE SECTION: 2/10
Although it has its share of loyal fans, it is not a franchise that can keep you interested for long. In fact, I get to believe half of those who like it is because of the fan service and not because of the generic slow story or the stock characters. I see no reason for anyone to spend money on it or even a reason to rewatch it. And let’s be honest, all its interesting plot points were taken directly into their next project, Mahou Shojo Madoka Magica. Just compare the first and last episodes of season one with each other and you will see what I mean. The very little it has is already used elsewhere in a more eye-captivating way and the rest is just Sailor Moon all over again. Practically no value left in this show.

VERDICT: S1: 6/10, S2: 6.5/10, S3: 4/10, M: 5.5/10 (Overall: 5/10)

[delorean2200]

Well like all good things my complete Nanoha rewatch has come to an end... damn i loved this series i can barely keep my self from rewatching it yet again right now, i for one loved StrikerS, every moment of it, i liked how they showed everything from so many perspectives and the plot was good, i liked how they show more details about the characters through the whole training part, the part with Vivio and Nanoha wasn't just adorable but was quite touching even dramatic at times, i liked the action music and story personally i don't have the slightest problem with execution, it was nice to see how the pupils trained by Nanoha evolved, Damn like i said this series was so good i just might end up and rewatching it again... I hope they will adapt Vivid and Force into a TV show as well...

PS: Nanoha's voice was gold.

[zrdb]

REVIEW TIME

Consider this a review of all three seasons and the 2010 movie.

Nanoha is a mahou shojo that messed with the archetypical formula in an attempt to not bore the viewers with a Sailor Moon rehash. Although that partially did the trick, in the longrun it felt victim of its own inability to change or make use of its own duration.

ART SECTION: 8/10
- The production values are good as far as the artwork goes. Nanoha’s setting blended the modern world with the magic of the past and the technology of the future and thus you are offered three-in-one. It has a certain variety that sets it apart from others of its kind and, when the animators were paid fully, it looked very eye-catchy.
- The characters are all drawn to be cute and most of them are kids for most of the story. Being a mahou shojo means that almost anyone important to the plot is a girl, with funky uniforms and magic gizmos that create all sorts of energy attacks. I can’t say I liked their looks; they were all quite generic and not really memorable. Plus, the animators went for fan service and thus there are lots of scenes where the girls are naked or with underwear. Nothing explicit but one really wonders if this show is for little girls with this amount of fan catering.
- The contemporary Japan areas are very typical and have nothing of interest to look at. The magic devices and the space-time spaceships on the other hand were an interesting combination.
- The problem is that there are too many obvious budget problems and that shows easily with too many use of stiff characters, scrolling panels and reused scenes. And yes, they do a lot of reusing in the transformation and attack parts. Also, the action scenes are to the most part simplistic exchange of energy beams that end up being tiresome after awhile.
- One thing that will not disappoint is the huge amount of lights and energy beams. They are filling the screen with all sorts of shapes and colors and patterns to the point you can faint if you are photo-epileptic. Very eye-catching and helps you to fight the otherwise boring battles.

SOUND SECTION: 8/10
Damn, I rarely find something to write about the sound part. Ok, I had absolutely no problem with it. The voices were not annoying (not too high-pitched to irritate me), the sound effects had an equal variety with the visual ones and the music themes were likable. But not memorable or great for any reason so I cut down some from the score.

STORY SECTION: S1: 5/10, S2: 7/10, S3: 3/10, M: 5/10 (Overall: 5/10)
The story begins in a typical fashion; cute good-hearted girl Nanoha finds Yuuno magic critter and gets powers in order to find something or stop someone. Along the way the story gets more complicating with the addition of an organization that protects the various dimensions from cosmic threats. It sounded very interesting as it blended magic with technology. But the pacing GAH, a complete mess. A major problem with the franchise that made most to give up on it.

- The first season was at first to find scattered spheres from an advanced civilization, and up until the first half it was plain boring. Nanoha and her friends had nothing of interest to fill the slice-of-life moments and the battles were short and simplistic. It is only when her rival Fate is introduced in the story that something good starts to happen. Suddenly she is taken aboard her fuzzy mascot’s spaceship, meats lots of officials and villains with their own spaceship are close by. It was a lot more enjoyable this way but towards the end you could easily see that even this twist didn’t save the story from its genericness. It was mostly about befriending the enemy rather than fighting with wits and the villains pretty much just stormed in and had their way like security didn’t matter. The finale is sweet if you like the power of friendship but otherwise very anti-climactic action-wise.
- The second season is now about finding an evil book that if it charges up fully will create lots of trouble. This season is enjoyable most of the time because it has far more interesting characters, far better action scenes, and in generally far more interesting rivals and objectives. It is otherwise again full of silly moments and again the power of friendship is all that matters in the end. One wonders why the hell do they have all these cool weapon or why they fight in general. Just hug the enemy and cry. But anyways, the second season is to the most part with good pacing.
- The third season is a bloody mess. Since nobody in this series ever dies, new characters are constantly introduced and the older ones are still present. As a result you have a huge cast that needed a lot of fleshing out or at least episodes dedicated to each one individually. Unfortunately most of the plot was nothing but a very slowly developed military operation with lots of pointless action and uninteresting villains. Plus while the duration is now twice as before, instead of using that extra time to flesh out the characters or provide emersion to the story, they just slowed down the pacing and left most of them as stunts and background decoration. IT WAS HORRIBLE!
- The movie is basically a retelling of the first season. You know, better visuals, more action, less plot, and now loli boobs come with nipples. Just for those who saw the series and want to see the same thing all over again with more superficial entertainment and less context.

In all, the main story had something good going but hardly took advantage of its potential and ended up being a half-baked cake.

CHARACTER SECTION: S1: 6/10, S2: 7/10, S3: 2/10, M: 5/10 (Overall: 5/10)
In all honesty, the cast of the franchise is pretty much stock material. They are all archetypes you will encounter in all mahou shojo in general. So all that mattered was to simply have them colorized throughout every season.

- The first season did a good job with what it had. The problem is, it only had two important girls and one secondary male mascot sidekick for twelve episodes. Although they were quite colorful, they were still archetypes and very few to excuse the duration. Otherwise, not bad for a trio.
- The second season adds almost a dozen more to the main and secondary cast and this is where things become interesting. Although nobody is still special for any reason, there is a lot of variety in personalities and their interactions feel more colorful and less bipolar in good guys – bad guys. Rather good in overall.
- The third season blew it to pieces. It introduced even more characters and pretty much didn’t bother to develop or colorize anyone enough. Not only that but now all the main girls are adults working in a military organization. Where did the magical feeling of those little girls go to? They turned from pure hearted children to military personnel; the magic is gone.

The cast was never special in any way but at least the first two seasons had some innocence in them. The third just makes everybody to feel like a footsoldier in some military academy doing his duty. Very distasteful development. Not only that, but the fan service element never left; it was there all the time showing the girls in various forms of undress. That didn’t add context to them; it took away their dignity. And seriously, watching Nanoha’s and Fate’s adult boobs bouncing like that all the time just felt like they became bitches. And wait a second; isn’t this a mahou shojo show? What the hell does a military organization doing here? And where are the romances? Not a single trace of a girl liking a boy… or another girl. Oh sure; lots of yuri innuendos for the doujins but nothing on screen. What is there to spice things about them? Their bonds of friendship? Not enough.

ENJOYMENT SECTION: S1: 6/10, S2: 7/10, S3: 2/10, M: 5/10 (Overall: 5/10)
Well, the characters is all the appeal of the show so my ratings for enjoyment are the same as for them.

VALUE SECTION: 2/10
Although it has its share of loyal fans, it is not a franchise that can keep you interested for long. In fact, I get to believe half of those who like it is because of the fan service and not because of the generic slow story or the stock characters. I see no reason for anyone to spend money on it or even a reason to rewatch it. And let’s be honest, all its interesting plot points were taken directly into their next project, Mahou Shojo Madoka Magica. Just compare the first and last episodes of season one with each other and you will see what I mean. The very little it has is already used elsewhere in a more eye-captivating way and the rest is just Sailor Moon all over again. Practically no value left in this show.

VERDICT: S1: 6/10, S2: 6.5/10, S3: 4/10, M: 5.5/10 (Overall: 5/10)


I think your review is way off base. I'll give it a total of 8 out of 10. It's pretty obvious to me that you don't like the series for your percieved weaknesses of the story, characters and art style. The story did have a lot of cliches and the characters had some flaws but I think the way the whole was put together more than outweighed the flaws of the individual parts. I would rewatch the whole series without hesitation.

[Sansker]

Oh well, I want to say what I think about this show so let’s do it.

My general impression of the series is… bad. It was actually a surprise because I did consider this could be the best of the three seasons. After the first two I was ready for more and when I hear this one will have twice the amount of episodes I was really looking forward to it. And then I see it and that illusion and hope die in a very horrible manner. Now, you might believe there is nothing much to say that hasn’t been consider yet but I still want to leave my opinion.

This was never a strong point on previous Nanoha series. The stories were the same in both the first season and A’s actually: plot device thing is bad and some people want it to stop it others to use it and they fight for it but in the end they become friends. Is actually done really straight in A’s and a little more interesting in the first season but it was never new. StrikerS does things different and shows why this franchise should never step away from the previous formula.

The plot in StrikerS is hard to tell because at this day I don’t really get it. So let’s see… a mad scientist is preparing a doomsday device to be release because the people who he works for control of the police/army/governmental organization that might try to stop him but allow him to go free so he can make things for them that he never delivers. So our heroines are to save the day because they hear this from a prophecy that predicts an attack on the main base of the organization but the guy who runs the show and also works for the same bad people as the scientist doesn’t believe this even when he lives in a world of magic so the heroines make up a special team to hunt down some crystals that have nothing to do with the doomsday device but that the bad guy that they don’t know anything about also wants but in reality they are making this to prepare for the attack on the main base and they don’t tell this to anyone because they feel the need to keep things secrets. So they get an elite group of the best people around and 4 rookies to fight the attack that happens in any case, but the bad guy kills his employers and tries to take over the world and in the end he fails and our heroines fight between them and they go to live their carriers.

Now if that sound like a bunch of ideas put together in a rush is only because that is the sensation I have from this story. StrikerS is a mess that doesn’t know where it begging and where it ends. Is not help by the change of tone all among the series but in general the story moves around with no sense of focus or any idea what is the main plot and what is the sub-plots. Is just terrible in execution and delivers a overall chaotic mess of ideas and characters. The first third of the series is boring and has nothing to do what it comes later on the series where the plot does kick off.

In the end what always bugs me here is how strange the story is executed. First seems to be a straight fight for the Relics, then it has something to do with Vivio, then we introduce cyborgs, robots, war, giant space ships and political dilemma that was not mention until that point and go to a rather long and yet rush resolution where nothing seems to be connected as some characters fights end here and there without making an impact on the rest of the fights. It goes down with the cero antagonism created between the main villain and the main characters and how unsympathetic and downright silly the bad guy is.

So really what destroys StrikerS is that they take too much time to present characters, introduce several plot ideas at once and execute them all combine to end things fast. Instead of each idea adding to the rest all of them fight for our attention, dragging us away in each turn to their fast resolutions so we can go back to see the others that have nothing to do with the ones we just saw. So really, bad execution of an overambitious plot.

But bad stories can be safe by good characters. Sadly StrikerS lacks them. Is not that the characters aren’t nice is that they also suffer from problems. First the necessity of take away the protagonism from Nanoha and the others always bug me. This was made for fans of the previous series and Nanoha’s name is on the title so: how is less Nanoha and new protagonist help the previous fans? And even not taking that in to consideration they still execute things wrong. The Forwards as good or bad you might think they are serve no purpose on the story at all.

Everything happening plot related in StrikerS is beyond the Forwards habilities to understand, interact, care or just do something about. Who finds things about Jail? Fate, who trains other units to fight under AMF conditions? Nanoha, who directs the unit and takes care of political things? Hayate. The Forwards on the other hands are just there to serve as soldiers because our main characters happen to be weaken by plot devices that makes them less effective. But really nothing that the Forwards do could not be accomplish in less time and with better results by anyone from the old cast.

The bad guys are ven worst. The main villain lacks a reasonable motivation and just act like a crazy person but he always talks about his grand dream of… technology? Jail never has any reason to do what he does. He already is keep safe and founded by a bunch of brains that lack any intelligence and he is command to investigate and create things, yet he wish to kill them and take control so he can do experiments and create things. He also lacks any connection to the main cast and he is only connected to Fate who happens to know about him already so his introduction is a little dramatic as you can get.

And moving on things always fall apart. Like Caro’s fear of her powers when we never see her do something wrong with them; Subaru and Ginga being cyborgs when that add nothing to the characters or the story, Teana’s emo trip that was done by using Nanoha’s past to make her feel better about thinking she isn’t that special even when we never see her being in any way inferior to the rest; Ginga being introduce, forget and then bring back to be kidnapped before we can grow to like her; Erio’s lack of anything resembling an arc; Nanoha and Fate’s ambiguous relationship; Hayate being use to do nothing; old character reduce to minor roles in favor of new characters; etc.

With a cast that really needs work, how can we get invested later on in the fights? The Numbers are generic and really forgettable. The only thing they made right was to name it like real numbers so is easier to remember. The designs were creative at least to make them look different but nothing really stands about them and they are pointless all things consider. They were there so the Forwards have someone to fight and when a character purpose is to serve for another character’s reason to exist is really not what I call good. And that is how I can resume most of the plot devices and things on this series: are there to make it look like everyone has a purpose.

The Limiters were there to give the Forward a purpose, space ships to the rescue to give Chrono a cameo, ancient things to give Yuuno his, Fate’s mother role to Vivio to give Lindy and Arf a cameo, training to fill for the number of episodes, giant AMF field to give Subaru something to do after Ginga is beat, Ginga herself to give Subaru something to do until she can rescue Nanoha, Zest to give Signum something to do while the rest were busy, Lutecia… I think you get the point.

Now that doesn’t mean those are bad plot devices but when you come down to it the only reason for most of them to exist is that we need to give so many characters some room in the story. Nanoha was busy with Vivio, Fate with Jail so… what is the rest going to do? Let’s add some minor villains, a ton of robots and let’s have them fight that while the plot is resolve.

In the end it all comes down to a sense of disconnection with this series. I don’t like the characters as much as I did in the past because we lost focus so easy and the story is too chaotic or boring to keep a good track so really I am just surfing between things without getting any attach to something and that, to me, is StrikerS worst crime.

Overall, 3 out of 10

[zrdb]

Sorry-I'll have to disagree with your thesis on Nanoha StrikerS-it's not super good but it's far from the abomination that you make it out to be. I thought that the characters and storyline were a logical progression from the first 2 series.

[Sansker]

Well, to be fair StrikerS is not the worst anime I have seem so far and I kind of see why other may like it. But I am really going to remark is not good. Characters and stories don’t add to each other and just fight for the spotlight, little sense of focus and weird plot and tone. This doesn’t look like a magical girl anime at all so is kind of odd saying is a good continuation of the previous two works when we just discard almost everything that happen there. The main focus is in new characters, we are no longer on Earth, the old characters are older and have some changes we didn’t get to see and there is just so much going on.

Besides the characters that are really trying to advance here are the Forward who didn’t appear in the previous seasons, so how their stories help to develop the previous ones? Just for that I didn’t like StrikerS the rest really comes out when the new story didn’t connect with me as the previous seasons. Which despite being average at best did make me care.

[Kaijo]

I agree. I mean, the whole Nanoha/Fate/Vivio thing was totally stupid. Vivio led to Vivid, and we know how horrible that turned out to be. Best if they had left it at A's, with Nanoha and Yuuno getting together and having a child the normal way! :)

[Sansker]

Was more like Nanoha/Vivio really and in the end nothing really come out from it. Nanoha was not the main character so her little arc of becoming a mother is not even look at and Fate was not really in to raising Vivio when she already had two brats to take care of.

Besides Yuuno and Nanoha didn't end it together and if they did have a child by the end of A's they were just 9 or 15.

[Kaijo]

Yeah, screw the only on-screen character development Nanoha ever got!

And with the epilogue, they were very definitely hinting Yuuno and Nanoha. ;) Without StrikerS, that would be the assumption we'd have to go on.^^

[Sansker]

Hey if they don't care to do it right I am not going to just praise their excuse for character development they use. Besides, a little hint in an epilogue is not what I call a love story, even less if we are talking about the main character.

[Archon_Wing]

I agree. I mean, the whole Nanoha/Fate/Vivio thing was totally stupid. Vivio led to Vivid, and we know how horrible that turned out to be. Best if they had left it at A's, with Nanoha and Yuuno getting together and having a child the normal way! :)

Actually, Nanoha x Job or Nanoha x Raising Heart seemed to the best choice.

[Sansker]

Now I have a mental picture of Nanoha and Raising Heart that will never go away... doesn't help I just play Mass Effect 3 and I can hear Raising Heart using EID's voice