Nanoha StrikerS - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating [Archive]

Dream_Traveller

2007-09-23, 16:06

First post, woo. :heh:

Now, StrikerS had a mixture of the good and the bad. I'm going to start by delving into the good points of the series.

The first was that it had new characters I liked. Subaru, Teana and Quattro were some examples, and there are more, even if were not as solidly developed. There was an air to them that drew me to them, and I liked the development of Teana and Subaru especially.

The second were the battles. The major ones. 17 stood out for me in that aspect. I do admit that the majority of the fights were training skirmishes, but, to me at least, the actual face-offs were decent.

The third- Jail. Man, that guy was a character and a half. Sure, some of his monologues were a tad...lengthy(:heh:), but I'd say he's one of the best villains, next to Quattro, to come out of the Nanoha series in a while.

The fourth was generally good voice acting. I always like that in the shows I watch, and StrikerS didn't disappoint me in this department.

There are more...however, there are obvious flaws.

One- things/characters left entirely forgotten/unexplained. A prime example of this is the Relic- we never were told in detail what one was, or what it did, and it faded into obscurity. Another example was the whole limiter bit- it seemed like they would play some importance, but it didn't matter since the Forwards did most of the action and not the Aces. There are also, well, others...and on the subject of forgotten characters, the three examples of this are Hayate(So much room for improvement wasted...), Cinque(Just introducing her then casting her aside for the most part for nine episodes? What's up with that?), and Lucino(Frankly, I don't know why she was introduced- from what I recall, she barely said a word and was rarely ever shown), and Zafira(I don't even want to know what they did to his character). Just forgetting characters when they have room for expanding upon is, frankly, unacceptable.

Two- Animation quality problems. This has been addressed by many before, but...the DVD releases will solve this.

Three- Vivio. I know she isn't the source of all problems but if the developers used her for something else other than a NxF/NxVxF object, she would have had promise. I admit, when I first saw her, I thought she had promise, then my expectations were dashed to shards.

Four- The general anticlimactic feeling. I know it was what the writers chose to do, but having everyone going on full cylinders against the Cradle and the Numbers/drones just made it feel...off. The only one that really had an outstanding moment was Teana. Erio/Caro and Subaru had their time, yes, but Teana stood out there. With the Aces just barging on ahead, and the defeat of Scag, Vivio, the Numbers and the Cradle itself being made so pitifully easy, it just ruined the whole setup.

This is only brief, but it's a summarization of the main points I wanted to put forward. Despite its flaws, though, I enjoyed StrikerS. I still am a steadfast follower of the Nanoha series, and, whilst it doesn't compare to the standards of A's or the first series, it still gets a good mark in my books.

Overall: 8-8.5/10.

Keroko

2007-09-23, 16:23

Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS was… a strange experience. It left both a wanting taste and one of completion, though the wanting is greater. The series is enjoyable, in fact I found it far more enjoyable then the first season, but you have this clear feeling of ‘this could have been much better’ throughout a lot of the series episodes.

To start with its bad points (and they are numerous) the series is long. Almost double the episodes of its predecessors, and that has obviously taken a toll on the writers. It’s clear that they got slacky, figuring that since they had double the episodes, they could afford to waste some time with less important stuff. In truth, though, there is a lot missing. I’ll list them.

The Bad

Character Development: Character development is a flip of the coin. On one hand, we have the Subaru/Teana pair, which is greatly developed throughout StrikerS. On the other hand, we have the Erio/Caro pair, which is the exact opposite. A strange thing, as they later turn out to have a very dramatic (or at least that was the intend) meeting with one of the series early antagonists. The worst one in my opinion is Vivio, she is a flat character, one with endless growth potential, and yet nothing is done with it, being demoted to a mere moe-blob for NanoFate fanservice which undermined her purpose in the final battle.

Speaking of which, the antagonists are not that well developed either. Lutecia is introduced early, but turns out to be not so important later on. The same goes for Zest, who really could have benefited from more development to increase the drama of his eventual demise.

Plot: In the beginning, StrikerS is all about training and improving. These scenes were often dubbed as ‘boring’ and ‘time consuming’. To me, this is one of those hints that the producers were slacking and becoming too comfortable with the idea that they had 26 episodes to play with. Many scenes could have been re-written to still get the message across, but faster and leaving room for additional info.

And then there is the fanservice, many NanoFate fans will have my head for this, but NanoFate was one of the reasons for the lack of connection to the final fight of Nanoha. Before you throw those rotten tomatoes in your hands, let me explain. The endfight was all about Nanoha and Vivio, it was all about Nanoha's insecurity as a mother and desperately wanting Vivio to accept her. Now I ask, what part did Fate play in this? The answer is nothing, she was of fighting Jail somewhere else. Had they reduced the NanoFate fanservice, and instead of 'Nanoha and Fate hapilly taking care of Vivio' we should have seen more of Nanoha's struggles as a mother, with Fate trying to offer support, but not in such a direct matter. The endfight clearly shows that it was supposed to be about Nanoha and Vivio, not Nanoha, Fate and Vivio.

Shafting: StrikerS suffers from the shafting of many sub-characters, but none have it as bad as Hayate and Zafira. Though Zafira can be excused as having become something of a rolling gag, Hayate gets the bad end of the stick, despite being one of the three. She never receives a transformation, we never get to see her fight, she even vanishes during critical moments or spends that time doing mundane tasks. Hayate fans really get the short stick in StrikerS.

The good

Now that we've had the bad, on to the good. What did StrikerS do that was good?

The characters: Despite the fact that the large group of new characters led to some severe, somethings to severe, shafting of the older characters, StrikerS had a sollid grid of characters. On the good guys we had the Teana/Subaru combi, which were two very good characters with a decent amount of development. On the bad guys we have many of the numbers. While you need to watch the anime a time or two to fully apreciate them, you will come to realize that many of the numbers are in fact brilliant characters on their own. Reading the manga and listening to the Sound Stages will only increase your love for them.

The fights: There are those who thought the fights in the first half were lacking, and to a degree they're right. Robotic, faceless oponents don't have the same tension as an oponent who displays emotions of her own. However, with that human opponent you wouldn't be able to achieve so easilly what StrikerS managed to do: See our heroines kicking ass and blowing lines after lines of enemies up. Let's face it, one on one duels as legendary as they may be, will always be less massive then a whole collum of enemies being blown to little bit of scraps. And in the second half, even the other half that wants duels is served as the numbers move in and we see battles, victories, and even fatalities.

The lore: StrikerS did something that A's failed to do. A's presented us with Belka, an at that time mysterious empire. StrikerS took Belka, and continued to build on it, digging deeper and revealing that Belka was a monarchy, that they freely used Lost Logia as weaponry in war and much more. At the same time they also dug deeper into Mid Childa, a world where untill StrikerS we had only heard stories about. We know it was the home world of our Bureau friends and Yuuno, but it wasn't untill StrikerS that we actually got to see it. And it wasn't just the world, the TSAB itself was also opened, and things like the raining regimes, uniforms, workings, departments and much more was revealed. StrikerS far suprasses its predecesors when it comes to the amount of new information that was given.

Deathkillz

2007-09-23, 16:41

Am i allowed to be honest? :rolleyes: :heh:

Well ever since it was confirmed that strikerS would be 10 (9) years after A's as opposed to the speculated 6 (5) years i just had this gut feeling that something was going to happen. I didnt like the fact that a chapter in the life of nanoha, fate chan and hayate was completely missed out for the sake of completeness. And besides? who wouldnt want to see fate chan's high school days? :love: (i also though that the milf fate chan this was quite a jump and so still remain a forever faithful loli fate chan lover :3)

The main problem with strikerS is the fact that the cast just suddenly got so huge. If it wasnt bad enough to have to develop 4 new stars (lolz what development i ask?) we suddenly got introduced to all the numbers as well. I think this task was just too big for the series as a whole and thus it left a feeling of emptiness - or that the characters wernt being exploited enough for their potential >_<

Onto the development...lolz what development? Oki really this is another point where the series failed to deliver...we were treated to nothing but solid "fillers" for the frist 10 eps. Those pointless training episodes got so pointless that it became forgettable...in fact even now i cant remember where the heck the first 10 episodes went - a vague memory of tea being emo but thats about it :rolleyes:

This time would have been better spent developing the new characters the doing any more bull - i would have thought that everyone is smart enough to get the picture after about 2 or 3 training eps but the producers must have second guessed us >.>

The stars -

While i do think that subaru and tea was able to add to the story (with subaru also being connected to the whole case via her unusual birth bla bla) what i thought was a totale waste of space has to be caro and erio. Seriously! the did NOTHING at all that is worth credit...most of the time caro was too busy chasing after lutecia (another useless character with wasted potential) with erio being her lap dog (not that i care as that kid can burn in hell for touching fate chan :rolleyes:)

who can honestly say that they know caro and erio more now at the end of this series than at the start? none...nope and nada...we never got development from these two character and was just given some basic facts to chew on...

yes caro got kicked out of her village but what happened next? not explained at all whereas erio is a part of project F but so what? fate chan got more of an explination about his roots than erio did...no mention of why he was created, by who, how he got to fate chan in the first place. And who in the right mind would want to create a boy? (unless jail is really yaoi like those doujins suggests) :rolleyes:

wasted potential >.>

and speaking about character development lets talk about the others. The numbers i wont even bother to mention as they dont have any history to begin with but what about lutecia? she was the other promised loli together with caro yet she also failed to deliver as a character. I dont mind as much seeing caro neglected but goddam not rori rider! O.O

She still has so much left unexplained...i would really like to see at least a flashback on her and zest - how they came to met, how she got her powers or whatever...anything would have done but instead we got nothing...*claps*

side characters arent even worth mentioning...i would say that ferret boy got about 30 words to say in the whole series (YESSSS!!! I DONT WANT TO HEAR YOUR VOICE ANYWAY!!) and zafira for about 10 words...still better than arf who had nothing to do with the story (geez...).

Chrono was the biggest disappointement in terms of side characters...all he did was sit back and drink tea while the others where facing life and death situations...he then pops up late in the party to kill steal all the hard work...its like honor farming! (WoW noob!)

The fights -

er...what fight? *skips*

*skip*

*skip*

*skip*

I duno if the producers are being lazy or what but they really do know how to save budget...by not giving out any fight scenes at all!! geez even nanoha and A's had more drama than this plie of smoking crap!
Id admit that some of the fights between the numbers where pretty good (a la subaru freaking out and smashing cinque) but on the whole compared with the whole series i would say that the amount of proper fight sequence we got was only about 5-10% (of the whole 26 ep series this is a disgrace!...nanoha is a series based on fighting!).

What killed everything was the insane amount of time spent on talking about bull...crap that i dont even care and only wishes for nanoha to starlight breaker someone's ass all the way to hell (it happened but only once...WTF!!! ONCE!!! i am not satisfied at all...). While all the good moves where kept back we reall didnt see any good ones pop up either (besides subaru's devine buster which looks like the kamehameha to me XD)

But not only was the fights not long lasting, they were also too fragmented between each episodes. example being one minute we are at subaru vs gina then the next we have tea against some numbers then we have caro giving out her "why are you doing this?" crap. godamm is it so hard to just make one fight complete without any interruptions? As if it isnt as bad enough as it already is you have to go screw it up by fragmenting everything?

also the skipping of those REAL mock fights are unforgivable! >_<

The plot -

And finally the plot...i feel like getting a blow torch and burning something at this point.

To be honest the plot suxed ass...I wasnt even dramatic right down to the last episode i even thought it was anti climatic! now that is something special.

The whole series was pretty much flooded with explinations, long speeches and manic laugther (provided by Dr spaghetti - lawl). But it would have been better if those talks actually ment something. Even now im having trouble trying to remember what really happened in the first half of the series as to me ive seem to have forgotten all of the pointlessness already. The plot was just THAT bad...

Even when it got to the main meat of the series (where it was still hazy about how things where going to go before the numbers came out that all changed with the intro of Jail) It all seems too relaxed. For what is supposed to be happening we didnt get much drama and even the stuff we got was usually de-dramatised come the next "cool off" episode. I never sensed any immediate danger from this series as we know what to expect. well yea this is nanoha and to expect a happy ending where everyone lives is natural...

Thats what i get for putting my hopes to high...you would think that being grown up, our girls wont mind a little blood shed and to learn the true meaning of loss. the amount of holes in this series is crazy...just to avoid death. Im still pissed that vita didnt die for the dramatic impact...look she was stabbed through the chest! clean through! and she didnt die...so what was all that bull shamal said about the knight's program failing to connect with the book anymore? ie no more haxx heals! but the plot hole is big enough to accept that she was able to live >.>

Also i have to say that jail must be the worse villian in history...for a super genius mad scientist you would thing that he would a) have planned further ahead b) have some trump card hidden c) fcking commit suicide if he had to...

a) he planned ahead with the seeds but what the use is that if they would only activate upon his death...he should be in jail now trying to find ways to kill himself >.>

b) vivio...but she failed so much as the final boss it is unture

c) death still pending...

moving onto vivio *sigh*

ive ranted so much its beginning to affect me health...:rolleyes:

vivio is another wasted potential...Vivio had the potential to give our white devil a good old fashioned ass whooping but instead all we got was null...now this was the biggest disappointment of the series to see the best fight go up in flames. We i hoped for was for vivio to force nanoha to use her full power in a one to one face off...epix images that flashed through my mind wasnt realised when all we got was some cheesy crap...vivio should have layed a smackdown on nanoha for all her worth but this challange of providing a decent fight scene proved to be too challenging for the producers it seems...

Overall -

StrikerS failed to impress as where the first and second season did (which is what made nanoha this great in the first place). This series was filled with cheesy counter dramatic fluff and it failed to cast of its "childlike" shell of "nobody dies no matter how much of a beating they take" and the uber happy happy tree friend end...which should have been a thing of the past seen as the girls are now grown up.

Too many time wasted on pointless fillers which would have made this series better if it was condensed into 13 eps. I never like streched out plots anyway :rolleyes:

potential to be great was loss with undevelopment (kinda ironic when they had all this time to focus on fillers) and the action was completely almost lost...or at least unfulfilling ~

given all the evidence i will give this series 5/10 but + 1 because of fate chan (which was the motivator which kept me carrying on >.>)

6/10 overall

random notes:

Hayate!!!!!! She failed me also ;___; Dammit 7arcs you just cant have the meister of the legendary tome sitting on the sidelines all the fricking time grrrrrrr

Fate chan <3 I guess her final barrier jacket was the highlight for the whole series for me :love:

*may add more ranting later XD*

justsomeguy

2007-09-23, 16:46

This show turned out to be utter trash. Is it sad that I actually prefer GSD or Otome over this?

The premise was already bad enough:
1) Nanoha and friends are no longer precocious lolis. It's very odd that the producers would abandon something that made the previous shows appealing to many people.
2) StrikerS is set on a boring backwater planet, instead of Earth. Nice way to make people care less. Nice way to write out characters like Nanoha's friends and family.

The execution was worse:
1) Training. Nuff said.
2) "Limiters." A completely retarded way of nerfing the main characters, instead of creating a plot that would actually challenge the main characters and last past the first few episodes.
3) Drones. Nobody gives a damn about trashing waves of unpiloted, poorly armed robots with Destiny grunt tactics. We want brutal human vs human(oid) action, dammit.
4) "Magic damage" vs "physical damage." Utter bullshit. So now we have absolutely devastating attacks that can be weaker than they appear, which in turn makes them into fanservice.
5) Shitty technology overall. RF6 flies around on a large but otherwise normal helicopter, and Fate drives around on a car with four wheels. Given what they are, why doesn't TSAB have better toys?!
6) Lack of intimacy. That feeling from 1st season and A's is absent.
7) Brains in jars.
8) Vivio.
9) Neglected characters. Besides the ones left behind on Earth, we could have used more Arf, as well as more character development for the cadets. Yuuno, on the other hand, we don't even need to see his face at all.

After all this, I agree with Triad for choosing not to waste their time subbing this. If they ever decide to make a 4th season, I hope they set it on Earth, just a little bit after A's, and retcon this entire season into non-canon.

krisslanza

2007-09-23, 17:56

I'm too lazy to write a real review, as that's not my thing I always end up contradicting myself somehow.

Despite the somehow 'blaringly obviously' problems other people noticed, I found nothing horribly wrong with StrikerS apart from some parts where the animation could've been better (Like in ep.24 with the Fate thing... I noticed it after watching it about twenty times or so, it could've been smoother.)

A lot of new characters, but I wasn't really interested in any of them so any lack of development on their part was moot for me. Besides, that's what the manga and sound stages are for... I'd rather have all the important bits in the anime then have to muck through an episode or two on someone's past. Just my own opinion.

So it's not perfect, but StrikerS WAS the only anime I was watching/looking forward to... So without it I guess I'm kinda out of anime to watch aside from re-runs... I guess I could give it...

8/10

I'd say 9/10 but then I think I'd be even more hated...

Riddly

2007-09-23, 18:32

Being a new Nanoha fan (I watched season 1 and 2 for the first time earlier this year) I was very much looking forward to season 3.

It was disappointing to see that their entire high school years was being skipped over, but I was excited nonetheless for season 3. While loli Nanoha and Fate is cute, I much rather watch them at an older age.

Maybe my expectation for this season was too high. The awesomeness of A's was pretty high up there.

I was well aware of the flaws StrikerS had, and while frustrating at first, I think I finally just gave in that the series would remain at this level, and stopped letting it bother me. Of course, I only watched the first 6 episodes until stopping for several weeks until I got around to watching it again. The show at that point was actually boring me, but as mentioned above, I gave it another chance.

While I found Erio and Caro to be cute, and Subaru and Tea to be somewhat interesting, I really just wanted to watch more on the old characters. They were the ones I cared about and actually wanted to watch an entire season on. Like Kriss said, I wasn't bothered by the lack of development for the majority of the new cast, due frankly to the fact that I didn't really find them all that interesting. I honestly didn't care about the numbers at all. The only feeling they got out of me was annoyance towards Quattro at the end. Jail fits nicely into this "blah" category too. Forgot the episode, but it's where Vivio is kidnapped and Jail is preparing to place that relic into her. That was about all the emotion he got out of me. I found him to be a very uninteresting villain. He didn't make me care enough to even hate him. This is in comparison to Precia and the Tome, where I actually cried during two scenes involving them and the other characters during their respected season.

As for Vivio, I know MANY find her to be a waste of space, and would easily send the little girl packing. Despite not having much development either, I actually liked her and cared about what happened to her. I know, you're all probably going what the hell?? I thought she was cute, and found the whole dynamic with her and Nanoha to be adorable. Just my opinion of course. You can all stop staring. :heh:

Don't get me wrong though, after my second go through on StrikerS I began to enjoy it. It wasn't exactly like the previous seasons, but it still that Nanoha flare during certain episodes.

Overall, I enjoyed StrikerS, and I'm sad to see it end. I do hope there's a 4th season. :)

I give it: 7/10

EnigmaticThief

2007-09-23, 19:10

This is my formal review of the series, copied from another forum I frequent. As such, it contains as very few spoilers and some redundant info for you fans. If you'd like me to go into more specific detail, feel free to ask.

Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS

Nanoha StrikerS is the latest installment in the recent Lyrical Nanoha franchise. While they were lost in the forum crash, I had reviewed the original and A's, giving them excellent marks. Let's see if this latest 26-episode installment lives up to its predecessors. (Note: the premise contains some spoilers for the previous Nanoha titles, so if you haven't seen them you may want to do so before reading further.)

10 years after the events of A's, Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate now all work full-time for the Time-Space Administration Bureau on its home planet, Midchilda. Hayate creates what she calls Mobile Section Six, a branch for the specific purpose of retrieving Lost Logia and handling incidents involving them. The Aces and Hayate's Wolkenritter now act as instructors to a new generation of mages, Subaru Nakajima, Teana Lanster, Erio Mondial, and Caro Ru Lushe, in the hopes of preparing them for such circumstances. Meanwhile, autonomous Gadget Drones have begun to search the capital for a certain set of Lost Logia, the Relics, causing destruction and confusion in their wake. What does the mastermind behind these incidents have in store for the Relics and Mobile Section 6 itself?

While Nanoha is still the title character of the series, Subaru becomes its second main character, and her fleshing-out occurs gradually over its course. She is a very likable protagonist, with rather awesome abilities and style to back it up, so getting to see her in action is one of this anime's main highlights. Her partner is the magic gun-slinging Teana, who also gets some good screen-time and development. The opening themes were once again performed by Nana Mizuki, and their contrasting tone does a very good job of portraying the shift in mood between the first and second half of the series. Seiyuu old and new do a competent job of performing their characters, with Subaru and Tea once again standing out.

As for things that could have been done better, there are many. On a visual level, StrikerS is frankly unimpressive compared to the work put into the previous Nanoha titles, perhaps partly due to it being twice the length of its predecessors. Characters often seem static rather than dynamic, and details in character and Device design are often lost. Most backgrounds and some details such as a large Lost Logia that appears near the end of the series are CG'ed. Without a higher standard of animation, the battles that occur through the series end up being quite underwhelming, a good example of which would be Zest's rather short final duel with Signum. I would say that the best animation in the series was in the overall events of Episode 1, the mock battle in Episode 8, and Subaru's berserker rage in Episode 17, with only the last example holding a candle to the best animation in the original and A's. However, all this serves as simply the bad wrapping of a bad package, as the series has some very big problems in its pacing and character development. For the former, the series starts out slowly, with the first half being devoted almost entirely to episodes of the new mages training and little development of the overall plot. With the enemies being the faceless Gadget Drones, battles have a less intense feel than the mage vs. mage fights of the earlier series. I mean, even a "monster-of-the-week" formula with heavily customized individual GDs with various powers would have been nice. The action picks up with the introduction of the twelve combat cyborgs, the Numbers, but immediately afterwards the series falls back into its old habits of still dialog shots and overly-long exposition, until the final plot arc.

With the timeskip from A's, a lot of new secondary characters are introduced at the series's onset, and only a handful of them receive any development. The addition of new characters inherently means that there is less time to feature the returning characters, specifically Hayate, Shamal, Zafira, and Chrono. Of the new main characters, Erio and Caro seemed woefully underdeveloped, even compared to their rarely-vocal 'rival,' Lutecia. Their personalities seemed flat, especially in regards to Vivio essentially becoming another daughter to their adoptive mother, Fate. You would think that perhaps some jealousy might spring up at some point, but no. For the villains, Dr. Jail Scaglietti was entertaining, as were the Numbers in some instances, but even so the Numbers were introduced almost all-at-once, so there was little-to-no time to really get a good grasp of them individually, except for perhaps Quattro. Also, a late plot twist involving Jail and the Numbers didn't end up really going anywhere, but might end up having influence in a potential sequel, maybe. Also, seeing almost all the subplots wrapped up in a happy end seemed forced, almost immature. But, then again, I'm probably not among the show's "target audience."

So, as you can see, Nanoha StrikerS does a lot of things wrong, but has a few diamonds-in-the-rough. It's disappointing to see the franchise hit this low after the epic original and A's.

Andy00

2007-09-23, 19:27

One thing that definitely toned down the enjoyment was....you guys. Or at least, the ones who's were biting the heads off of rival shippers and insulting them. The ones who were constantly seething that the show wasn't killing any of the protagonists off were a downer too.

That being said, I think StrikerS is a fine 26 episode....epilogue. The genre transformation was incredibly ambitious; although it would have down better with less characters. Seeing Magical Girls grow up to be authority figures as opposed to just some guy's wife (and having to lose their magical powers because Japanese wives shouldn't have them) is extremely refreshing.

Demon Eyes

2007-09-23, 20:12

* General impression of the series.

The first two were better than StrikerS

* Opinions on the overall story, writing & plot devices.

I don't watch anime for plot since my brain ain't that good so I can't comment much but this was the only series I've seen that introduces so many character and hits it perfectly! It wasn't all over the place, the story was set from the get go so I guess it was a good pacing! And no damn fillers! Thank God!

* Thoughts about the animation quality.

I don't know what exactly 'Quality' refers to but I love the character designs and the 'movement'(Is it called this?) of the characters was great! - I refer here at for example, Flying and fighting and flashes and stuff! Were I to compare it to Hollywood, I would say Nanoha action is like Spielberg....

* Will there be additional DVD only episodes and what will they contain.

Don't know about DVD eps...I demand another TV series! And if it does get made, I hope for

a) less than 100 cast,
b) An enemy from within <-You know what I mean...
c) I thought this studio was different from the rest...Make it clear that Nanoha and Fate are together already damn it! You show other characters dropping kids like rabbits yet these two are only adopting...WAIT! They are together!!!...But your(animators) word would be nice!

* Characters/Character Design

I already talked about this and to say it again, I loved this art style since 'Sweet Songs Forever'. Nanoha's face could do with some improvements though!...

* What the show meant to you.

1. It proved that this is the best Magical girl show ever!!! And that it wouldn't matter how many sequels are made, they would be a hit! Just avoid getting into relationships concerning Fate and Nanoha and you will have your audience until you solve it!

2. It also showed me that you can't make friends from introductions or chocolates only! That there is another way...The best way of be-friending!!!!

3. It left me craving for moreee!!!!

* What could the creators/animators/writers could have done better.

1. Got it to air on some more common stations like Tokyo and BS-X. It is well received and I am sure the rating would've been super awesome. Why didn't they do it?!!!

2. The main characters are grown up. Make the villains grown up to. I mean here of course, for villains to be more...I don't know...More menacing...Precia was the best villain ever...Even though she just remained in her sanctuary...But she looked the part and had the power to back herself up! I was expecting much eveeell but alas, we recieve a pansy Doctor whose only thing is having the best evil laugh, A number four who tries to run from tsunami(4x Devine Buster) and an over-rated Let's talk things over Mr/Ms bad and make up!<- This was excellent with Fate and Hayate but it failed so much here....

3. A coffin of Quatro would've been excellent as the ending...

4. Remember the dea...I mean other characters too...Suzuka and the rest of the earthlings( Ahem) And Yuuno and Alf...Poor familiars!

Sigh!

Enough of the complaints....

I loved this series and I will watch it again and again until the Z series...

2009, Come here already damn you! I am waiting for my sequel...NOTE: Didn't say Finale...It's still way early for that!

FlareKnight

2007-09-23, 20:16

Ah a review, admittingly first one I've done for a series so hope there will be forgiveness over how this reads.

So when I first read fall previews a series called Nanoha StrikerS appeared. Seemed like an interesting enough one and found out there were a couple previous seasons. So in a rush I 'found' the other episodes and watched it in a 26 episode blitz that was pretty fun and I'm glad at least this series did that for me. With that StrikerS was on the horizon and I was ready for what should've been a good time if the previous seasons had given me anything to work with. Now perhaps it was the expectations made from those previous seasons but StrikerS just didn't deliver to the level that it could have or should have. Will break it down into positives and negatives.

The Positives
There were some interesting characters that were brought forward that at least had me looking forward to how they would be involved. The Stars duo Teana and Subaru were pretty well developed throughout this. Subaru started as a girl that looked up to her idol (Nanoha) was a bit of a crier, but not a bad person by any stretch. Teana was your hot head with tsundere qualities and the two of them had good chemistry. Like a memorable wake up with Subaru groping Teana. These two had plenty of development like Teana dealing with feeling too average in a squad filled with Aces, Hayate's knights, etc. So wasn't bad that she eventually dealt with that becoming a very skilled character finishing in her battle against the numbers.

There were characters that had some good potential and I was excited about. Erio and Caro seemed like a duo that could do well in the series. Erio had the lightning element, loli sensor, and a connection to Fate that seemed to push him as being a good character and fighter. Caro had the background of being kicked out of her village for having dangerous powers and her being picked up by Fate. There was some chemistry there that peaked with a 'date' during a day off. Lutecia seemed to be a good loli enemy with her mysteriousness and level headed battle plans. Was a bit of possibilities of throwing her into a triangle with Erio/Caro and maybe things could get interesting there.

Sonic Form adult Fate-chan :D. Seriously that's a positive point all on its own. Vita as well had a moment to shine. Bleeding and injured, she still gave everything she had and it was a beautiful moment for her.

I'm sure there was more to praise from this series but right now my head is a bit blanked.

The Negatives
Ok now here is something that can be talked about for a while. Shafting of characters was a big theme here. Zafira who? This has to be one guy who really got hit hard. Not once in the series did he leave the wolf form or pretend he had a human one to rely on. Helping Vivo fold laundry of course was a major thing. Then getting beaten into a hospital bed by numbers finished off the sadness there. Certainly he did come back to fight a bit but wasn't much to fix the situation with him.

Chrono....wow I don't know how to say what they did here. He did almost nothing this entire series. The biggest event he acted in was releasing limiters on Hayate once. A small interaction with him and Fate which was a bit entertaining but that was it. He didn't fight, barely showed up, and of course the biggest thing was marrying him off almost as an afterthought to Amy. I didn't even see that thing coming and maybe it was just so he couldn't interfere with the NxF things. Really the best interactions were with him and Carim and that would be dimmed with the fact that he was already married. Amy never really showed up except maybe in a picture so I didn't see the point. Let us weep for the wasted Chrono.

Now speaking of wasted characters. I spoke of Caro, Lutecia, and Erio as being characters with some potential. Except after the Vivio interaction they all dropped off the map. Lutecia who was apparently going to be interesting really was left behind. Had some reasoning that she was trying to help her mother by getting relics. But didn't find out much about her background with Zest and Agito. Her personality and thoughts were just left there. Pulling the mind control bit at the end to make sure she fights. Just felt she was really poorly developed if not undeveloped entirely. There was nothing going on with her and Erio/Caro yet they expected the befriending to make sense. It's not like they even talked once before this and really they dropped the ball.

Erio and Caro were barely developed themselves. We find out about Erio's Project F background yet it didn't seem to matter at all. Even the connection between the two of them really wasn't important after that day off episode. The lightning squad suffered badly here. All the talk they had about Strada's forms were pretty weak. One was multiple boosters (wow exciting, forget about things like Zambar form or Snake form this is huge), and the other seemed to be a form for electrical moves. These two just weren't prominent and all the expectations for more was abandoned.

Another character to suffer was Hayate. Not that transformation scenes are the most important but she really got nothing. Felt bad for her in not getting involved much except for a couple spells around that day off. Near the final battles she wasn't important and any action they insinuated some but she didn't do much. Catching Vita after her big moment which was a nice thing in the series was her big moment in the final part. I feel bad for her since she was a character that they could've done a lot with but in the end she fell down with some of the others.

Vivio...she is going to be a point of contention. I didn't hate the girl, but her appearance signaled a point of doom. As some have said everything changed with her appearance. Relics, bah, Project F? Who cares. She was now the center of the universe. A lot was spent with her connection to Nanoha and giving some NxF moments making them a nice and cheerful family. Really in the end she became a battery and a very weak A's Hayate. This Nanoha battle at the end was no where near the same intensity. It was Nanoha trying to pin her down and hold her while Vivio gave some fighting. She just seemed too flat and took away a lot of development.

I'm sure there is more I wasn't quite happy with but that's a bit of an overview in that case.

Final Thoughts
Now I'll give the series some credit in that its existence let me know about the original and A's that were very well done and enjoyable. I'd put in some of my expectations as being to blame, but also it's the fault of those making this season. Plot, character development, and dividing their time right was an issue. Maybe they tried to do too much and went beyond their capabilities.

More than anything I feel bad for how some characters were just hurt by all of this. There were positive things in this series. Characters I liked and some plot ideas even if they didn't pan out. I just feel left bothered by all of this since there was a lot of hope for the series and a lot of fans who were hoping for the best. Don't want to give the impression that everything sucked, but disappointed is a word that can describe this. If this was stand alone it might've been better since it has to be judged in comparison to the other seasons.

6.5/10

serenade_beta

2007-09-23, 20:32

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-24, 06:51

Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS or in translated terms: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS.

I just got into the Nanoha series earlier this year when I was exposed to something called "Dark Nanoha" on GamefaqsDragonfly's sig. (I think that was the screen name.:heh:) It caught my eye and I was tempted to check out the forum called "Nanoha". After reading through some threads and such, thats when I started watching the series and became an instant fan and caught up with all 2 seasons just in time for StrikerS.

StrikerS is set 10 years after A's. With that in mind, thats a big time skip compared to what Naruto has been through.:heh: But with all seriousness, we had speculated that we were going to get a dark and serious season of Nanoha with the three aces all grown up to be adults and taking full time jobs in TSAB, which protects the time space continuum and such. We are introduced to four new characters that would become pupils under the three aces. Subaru, Teana, Erio, and Caro. Four new characters with pasts that will intertwine with the new plot thats about to come. (or so we all thought it would...:heh:)

Story - During the first half of the series, it looked promising. It was about relics and how this one scientist wanted to collect them so he could take over the world and such. We get introduced to a new purple haired loli and her guardian. It was going steady until we get derailed from the main story and onto someone's problem dealing with almost seriously hurting her partner in battle. That emo person lasted for 2 episodes until we got our first serious 2 episode battle. We got to see some new attacks, and a new barrier jacket from Nanoha herself. Plus new enemies like the Numbers and Scaglietti involved with Project F and other stuff. After the battle, we get a man named Regius who despises past criminals to take part in TSAB's affairs. And we also get the "would come true" Prophecy as told by Carim. Plus we can't forget Vivio that was rescued during the 2 episode battle. That was the first half...the second half went downhill into nothing about the plot or relics. Vivio was a character to generate NanohaXFate fanservice to yuri fans of this show. After a few episodes we get more fighting and we're back to the relic plot...well somewhat.:heh: We get summoning greatness, Cyborg berserking action, and a captured kid named Vivio. But that just generated more NXF scenes and such that the plot was seriously changed to getting back Vivio and Ginga and blow the crap out of Scaglietti's plans. Towards the end of the final fight, we get a lot of somewhat, flashy moves. We get nothing out of the Caro and Erio pair during their fight with Lutecia...it was pure blank and mindless. We get Fate's sonic form though and it was a nice sight to see. Nanoha and blaster mode, which was 5 RH funnels, and a five shot Starlight Breaker attack for the time skipped Vivio. The ending wasn't as climatic and even though RF6 was lead by Hayate, she got seriously shafted after the second half of StrikerS had started. Chrono was useless and the Forwards were decent, but not as great as how the aces were in their younger years. To put it simply, the story was on/off, then it completely just changed towards the end like how my explanation of the story just veered off to talking about what happened in the last battle.:heh:

Characters - I enjoyed watching the Forwards though...they were pretty entertaining. Although Stars members, Teana and Subaru got more development than Caro and Erio. Heck, they didn't even get any screen time with Fate being together and Fate acting like a guardian to them. Sadly enough, you can only experience this during the Sound Stages, which is pretty useless since you're just listening instead of actually watching and becoming attached to whats going on.:heh: Hayate got shafted and so did Zafira, who both characters were on the "main list" and not in the "supporting roles". Hayate got fights, but that was during the first half. The second big fight and the ending, she didn't do much...just unison...and save Vita from doom...thats it! Scaglietti was a decent villain, although he talked too much though and created too much Numbers. The Numbers were interesting, although too much characters already so they weren't as developed also. Plus Cinque went missing after the owning she received by Subaru in episode 17. Chrono was also useless in the final fight...he just sat down most of the time and talked. Vivio was a NxF generator and a moe factor for StrikerS...she didn't even have any development other than she's just a little kid with someone's memories that could be important.

THE GOOD
- We get the "white devil" to come out of Nanoha when Teana was in emo mode.
- Erio and Caro make a good couple.
- Lutecia reminds you of Fate back in the first season.
- Zest is obsessed with his muscles...J/K, he's a knight and S+ ranked!
- Scaglietti likes to experiment with life.
- Ginga is hot!:love:
- Sonic form Fate is hotter!!:love::love:
- Berserk Subaru was the best fight scene throughout the whole season.
- Teana's tactics during episode 24!
- Nanoha's Exceed mode!
- Signum with her hair down.:love:
- Signum's unison with Agito.
- Vita giving her all in the final battle.

THE BAD
- Plot was drastically changed towards the end.
- A lot of side plots abandoned and never solved, or were solved quickly.(Einherjars, relics, prophecy)
- Vivio was a NanohaXFate fanservice generator. And her cries were really irritating.
- Too much development on Subaru and Teana and not much on Erio, Caro and even Lutecia.
- Scaglietti proved to be more of a weaker villain compared to Quattro.
- Characters got really shafted. (Hayate, Chrono, Zafira...Cinque)
- Too many new characters!!
- Everyone seemed like secondary characters except for Nanoha and Vivio at the end.
- Too much training episodes.
- Too much talking about...any kind of crap!
- Too many flashbacks during crucial moments.
- Plot holes everywhere!
- Blaster mode with Starlight Breaker was impressive, but it was too overpowered of an attack.
- Vita still smashing things after being close to death and such.

Final
7/10, I was really looking forward to this season, but it left me with a bad taste.
The ending seems really open...heres hoping to a 4th season and I think it would be wise to set it on Earth...or atleast get Earth involved...that way, it would really up the dramatic effect to the plot. Too many characters and everyone tried to get equal time on screen but that just added to more disasters. Better luck next time 7arcs...or go with the original 13 episode formula.
Even with its flaws, we get to anticipate a coming of a new season with answers to these plot holes...unless the Sound Stages and Manga will pick it up where it was left. I would say StrikerS was just a big fat intro to new characters and a broken storyline. The next season, we should be all on our way to an epic season...hopefully.:heh:

Ichy

2007-09-24, 08:55

Well... 2 out of 10 :(

Was this thre real thig or some kind of Trainings Anime? Such an INSANE amount of Filler Episodes.. :frustrated: Is Nanoha StrikeS some kind of Shounen Anime and wa are in filler arc right now?
Then we got moments of IMMENSE QUALITY! It's almost Feena Fam Earthlight (http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/2586/1188668277460wf4.jpg) level.
Story wasn't that great eighter...
There was A LOT of unneeded trash... Power Limiter anyone? I Know Fight Scenes are expensive to animate... but Nanoha is about fighting!
Unneeded Characters like Caro and that boy I don`t even remember -.-
Numbers are failing hard as Villian :uhoh: Where is mah human shaped Lost Logia of mass destruction? :heh:
Important Characters got shafted. Hayate is my favourite Charaters... this 26 Episodes where really painfull -.-

It would be a solid 0/10... Subaru was able to make it a little bit watchable...

Icarus

2007-09-24, 09:57

Nemesis

2007-09-24, 09:59

Now if A's pacing and StrikerS's ending were combined together.........that would bring back some faith.

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-24, 10:11

Funny how people can compare A's and StrikerS as a marker for quality, when for all the awesomeness of the pacing and story development, A's itself suffered from one of the worst possible ending sequences I've ever seen in anime; while StrikerS, for all the misgivings and problems, at least ended somewhat conclusively and - get this - had antagonists that actually fought back.

StrikerS is finished, and now I have nothing to watch. ;_;

Rating: about 7/8 out of 10.

Now if A's pacing and StrikerS's ending were combined together.........that would bring back some faith.

I don't see what's so grand with StrikerS' ending :confused: It ended the same way as A's, only with much more cheese and rasied eye brows.

And I specially didn't get the "antagonists fought back" part, I hope you're only refering to the Defense Program. But even then it's a trade off - in StrikerS the protagonists didn't actually go all out.

Jimmy C

2007-09-24, 10:13

A's itself suffered from one of the worst possible ending sequences I've ever seen in anime;

Could you please explain that? If you meant "ending conclusively" It seemed pretty clear cut that both the Book and its defense program were dealt with. If you meant the epilogue, what's wrong with a "life goes on" ending?

Icarus

2007-09-24, 10:27

Ichy

2007-09-24, 10:37

So you're telling me you'd take the ending where The Most Powerful Thing In Existence stands there and takes every single ultimate attack that is thrown at it (without even doing anything remotely interesting besides wiggling its tentacles), and then is finally thrown up into space to be Arc-en-ciel'ed into oblivion; over the ending where the antagonists fought back, and could have won if 1) they had more brains between their metallic skulls, and 2) they weren't up against anime conventions where the bad guys have to lose to the good guys?

Interesting.

I agree with Adr00 that if StS had A's pacing and story development, it'd be a killer series.
Nevertheless I enjoyed StS.

You missed how Hayate cut of the defense programs link to the Book?
There was not much Attack power left, wiggling its tentacles was one of the only things left to do.

Also there was this EPIC fight against Suigintome. That's why A's Ending > StrikerS

Chaos2Frozen

2007-09-24, 10:52

So you're telling me you'd take the ending where The Most Powerful Thing In Existence stands there and takes every single ultimate attack that is thrown at it (without even doing anything remotely interesting besides wiggling its tentacles), and then is finally thrown up into space to be Arc-en-ciel'ed into oblivion; over the ending where the antagonists fought back, and could have won if 1) they had more brains between their metallic skulls, and 2) they weren't up against anime conventions where the bad guys have to lose to the good guys?

Interesting.

You're refering to the last battle then, not the actual ending.

You see, StrikerS final battle is a hold-back session with Vivio, rather than an actual fight.

What you meant when you said the antagonists fought back and that they lose because of point 1 and 2, is the Numbers vs RF6. Now when compared to A's, that scene in A's would be the fight Nanoha and Fate had with Reinforce.

Now tell me which is better?

Nemesis

2007-09-24, 10:55

okay,maybe my judgement was clouded.A's is better in the sense the they didt hold back.

Just wish they took out Erio,Caro and lutecia.
But seriously it intrigues me how they are able to create good characters like Erio,Caro and Lutecia but not the same for vivio.

krisslanza

2007-09-24, 22:37

Nightengale

2007-09-24, 23:13

I think Vivio comes off as a bad character because people view her as a moe-blob and NxF fanservice, that and they find her way of acting annoying. But really I think it's appropriate given her age and the fact she really had no one who cared about her, her crying may have annoyed some people but I know it really hurt having to hear her screams in... I forget which episode.

You know, there is nothing wrong with her being such. There is nothing good as well.

And if Vivio had the same level of character and intelligence in the previous episodes like her last 2, where despite still being mama-mama, wasn't all that blobby and fluffy and was more 7-10 years old like than 4-5 years old, then it wouldn't be so bad. Since the key point was to introduce the element of Nanoha-mama and her drive of wanting to work hard for her sake, what's wrong with making it more emotionally connected with a better character?

If you ask my opinion, Vivio's element as a character should've been there to clearly emphasis that Nanoha is a flawed mother/parent figure, yet despite that, Vivio loves her , and Nanoha too on a very emotional basis. But that element was diluted for moe instead, and the more emotional ones got a one minute flashback during the battle along some other scenes as opposed to actually integrating them into the happy moe moments.

That's a flaw right there. Both with direction and character.

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-25, 04:49

Despite StrikerS' story having a cluttered and messed up storyline, atleast we can note that Nana Mizuki and Yukari Tamura both did a good job on the opening and ending theme songs for this season. Most likely, StrikerS had the best songs out of the previous two seasons and the ending theme songs didn't have that "happy" feel to it, even though it is still called a "Shoujo" type of show.

Although it would have been an interesting turnabout for StrikerS to include death to one of its main characters, despite its "magical girl" theme, but remember, we did get death in the previous seasons (precia and Reinforce I) and we did get three people that died in this season (Zest, Regius, and Due...I think she's dead:heh:).

Even though Vivio was blamed for StrikerS' story to go bad, maybe they used that influence to show us that she could be the upcoming rising star that might take over the fourth season as the new main character and lead heroine. But its no excuse for not letting her get proper character development though. Vivio had potential, just like how Caro and Erio were supposed to get proper character development also. Not to mention Lutecia also.

EDIT I will miss StrikerS and the feeling of anticipation that happens every week when the new episode was going to premiere...even though if the episode was full of meaningless talk or was action packed.:heh:

Flar

2007-09-25, 05:36

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS

Third season of the famous show Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, StrikerS was faced with the challenge of meeting the expectations set by the excellent second season, A's. To accomplish this, the producers decided to be wildly original, break totally from the Mahou Shoujo genre, and make their heroines working adults in a world where magic power is normal and totally integrated in society.

Now, what did they make of it?

The good
The setting is very interesting. We knew Nanoha, Fate, Hayate and the old cast were powerful borderline genius mages, and were going to be recognized as the best in their field. The serie begins on that note, with Hayate basically creating a Special Ops / SWAT force, concentrating all her friends in her unit, as well as many elite mages and prospects with potential.

The new cast has a lot of potential, with abilities that differ from the usual superpowerful artillery shots. The manga hinted at situations where conventional powerhouses like Nanoha, Fate or Hayate would be helpless alone, and this was a great opportunity to shoe-in the new recruits in the team, make the fights more team-oriented and tactically sound while still delivering the epic feeling fights such as Reinforce versus Nanoha and Fate had.

The old cast, in turn, also has a lot of potential. Of course, we already knew them from the previous seasons, but ten years passed by, where they would have changed, evolved, learned to master their abilities, entered relationships and at least developped their own personality. The timeskip made them adults but they are still at an age where they should be in first year of university, so it's not like they should be more serious than any University student, less, considering their superstar status.

The bad
Essentially, all this potential is wasted:
The worldbuilding is inexistant. You would have thought that being in a new world, we would have had some moments devoted to make it feel alive, so that we could care if it was destroyed or something, but no, what we get is rooms where redundant characters drink tea, panning shots over the capital where whole districts are still in ruin from an incident years ago, and an overdose of uninhabitated training grounds. Not even scenes where we could glimpse random citizens going about their business, or interactions with city facilities like bars, train stations or newspaper organisations. It is sad that it is in the manga that we get most of it, including mention that Nanoha is famous enough to be interviewed by magazines and called a genius.

Bad guys are underwhelming for the most part of the season. A's set the bar somewhat high, having the antagonists crushing the heroes with style in the first episode, none of that here: what we get is non-threatening drones without personality backed by a barely articulate loli with an uncomprehensible and ultimately irrelevant and shallow motivation.

The story was a rehash of the two previous seasons, oddly mixed together, to form a dubious compound, where at first it seemed to focus on relics (read: jewel seed) incidents, a loli working to ressurect her mother and project F (The Fate cloning project, shocking) to veer radically during the second part toward a Belka device destroying the world, complete with team to protect it and a friend becoming the ultimate bad guy. If you compare Jail to Signum or Vivio to Hayate, though, the new guys don't hold a candle to the old guard, except in the maniacal laughter department, of course.

The ugly
The first thing to mention is character development. You can forgive a ghost world if the characters are vibrant enough to make you forget about it, but in StrikerS development is a lost art. The old cast feels like only their body grew while everything else stayed the same or became worse, like in Fate's case, where she now needs help to cope with psychological dilemnas, or with falling rubble. The new cast, for all the training they went through, showed little personality beside the traits established at the beginning. Once again, the manga is the place where they get the most development, and the anime focuses on showing them training, again and again, and AGAIN... There is really a limit at how many times you can watch a good guy crush a soulless drone. If you compare it to the previous seasons, Nanoha's training was done offscreen, and the anime only gave us the real fights. Hell, even the Volkenritters blasting through weak opponents was done in fast forward, in half an episode, and only to develop their dedication to Hayate.

The storytelling devices. How clumsy can you get? The old guard was powerful, very powerful, so something had to be done to let the newbies shine and develop, so we got AMF and limiters, to restrict what adults could do. This was already a poor choice, however, since it clashed with fanservice AND common sense, they had to resort to something more drastic: shafting, in other words, inconsistency to whole other level. The old guard becomes unavailable when stuff hits the fan, and seem to have developped a whole host of weakness they didn't have before. Hayate is like the poster girl for this category, she has multiple devices, is more powerful than Nanoha, and should be as scary as Reinforce 1, yet the only thing she does is freeze an airport, blast drones and look out of breath. Not like she could have nuked all the numbers, or the summons in one shot, right? right? Wrong! but the newbies needed some spotlight.

The pacing. Oh god the pacing. When by episode 10 nothing more significant than Nanoha blasting Tea out of the sky during practice had happened, you just knew there was a problem. Half the serie gone and it was really all training, irrelevant infodumping and drones slaughter, the plot didn't move an inch. Even the incident with Tea proved to be worthless in the end... Tea did the thing she was blasted for immediatly after she recovered, and Nanoha's injuries or the implication that going full power could be dangerous was never mentioned again.

The fanservice. This one is really the worst offense. I have nothing against fanservice in general, but in StrikerS case, it destroyed the show. Most will mention Vivio at this point, but I think she really is the tip of the iceberg. Thing is, the animators tried to please everyone but without commiting themselves, so what we got was a lot of inconsistent hints, going in all directions, and animation time devoted to useless devices. Case in point, Nanoha and Fate's relationship... if you want them to be together, do it, don't give us these halfassed hints, and move on from that, the show shouldn't be about how you can imply something without actually confirming it.
In the same order of idea, if you cannot cope with a huge cast, forget about adding the moe loli or the boy. If you cannot develop it, don't give a unison with Hayate's own device to everyone but her. Noone needs to see Chrono sitting somewhere looking bored drinking tea. Noone needs transformation sequences taking half an episode and so disconnected from the story that they would fit more easily in a fighting game. Make some damn choices, stick to them, streamline your story and get going, godammit.

Conclusion
Some good ideas, a lot of potential, but a rehashed story with a very weak execution.

My rating: POOR (4/10)

Jimmy C

2007-09-25, 07:41

No one needs transformation sequences taking half an episode

The full transformation sequences took up less than a third of an episode in ep5. And they only used it again one other time in ep11. Yes, that second time was a waste, but it was still far better than, say, Sailor Moon, where you got the transformation sequence for 5 girls (or more) every single episode!

Nightengale

2007-09-25, 07:56

Flar

2007-09-25, 09:20

The full transformation sequences took up less than a third of an episode in ep5. And they only used it again one other time in ep11. Yes, that second time was a waste, but it was still far better than, say, Sailor Moon, where you got the transformation sequence for 5 girls (or more) every single episode!If you take all the time devoted to transformation throughout the serie, I think it amounts to half an episode at least, but I have a tendency to exagerate to get my point across, the exact time wasted isn't very important.

My point is that we actually don't need transformation scenes, since the anime isn't a magical girl anime anymore, except in title, but if we absolutely must have them, we don't need them to be so long or ending on an eyecatch that makes me wish a villiain would attack at that moment. Instant switch from normal to barrier jacket is so much more efficient.

This is very tied to the fanservice criticism, the producers should learn to let go of redundant devices, once they decided StrikerS would be 26 episodes of SWAT with magical rods, they should have seen that long involved individual transformations didn't fit in anymore, except to please some fans. They are as bad as Vivio, in a way.

Not to mention, if you transform some of the heroes, transform them all. It really adds to the show's inconsistency to have some people change with a flash or offscreen when others have minutes of panty shots.

Of course I have to admit that what I think was the best transformation of the season was Hayate changing in her barrier jacket in episode 1. It was simple, fast, dynamic and did give a feeling of underlying power. Longer transformations felt just like ridiculous and out of place fanservice, that an onsen/Earth episode would have taken care of while actually developping the characters.

Kabitzin

2007-09-25, 14:57

I think StrikerS will end up being one of those series you remember fondly, because while the bad parts were kinda clunky and boring, it still delivered some really awesome moments. I also liked the tactical aspects of Strikers, as Flar mentioned, as it takes a whole army of scrub mages to hold off the enemy long enough for Nanoha to get all the glory and chat it up with the enemy.

What I just can't understand is why the Nanoha franchise cannot secure a decent animation team. Can you imagine how much better all these series would look if they had a better budget/team? Why no funding? It's not like Nanoha is an unknown quantity at this point.

relentlessflame

2007-09-25, 20:20

What I just can't understand is why the Nanoha franchise cannot secure a decent animation team. Can you imagine how much better all these series would look if they had a better budget/team? Why no funding? It's not like Nanoha is an unknown quantity at this point.If you want an opinion, I think Seven Arcs is a perfectly fine animation production team. They (and StarChild/King Records) just happen to not care all that much about the TV broadcast. :heh: I wouldn't exactly say it's only a ploy to get people to buy the DVDs, but it's obvious that's where they make their money. I assume it's a trend you'll continue to see more of in this market.

krisslanza

2007-09-25, 21:16

Well the thing with transformation scenes is they ARE instant. As shown in MSLN and A's a few times, they really switch to the barrier jacket in a split second. We just get it shown in slow-mo for fanservice... And StrikerS is still magical girl, even if it's really more of 'magical woman' since Caro is the only lead girl (aside from Vivio, but her's is when she matures anyway).

Julius Firefocht

2007-09-26, 06:30

Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS.

So much mixed feelings for this show. On one hand, it has some really awesome fight sequences, and Fate in sonic form. On the other hand, the enemies were too lackluster and failed to put up an epic struggle against the RF6.

I will be honest, I was hoping for mass bloodshed. The potential for deaths and massive killings was present with such a large group of enemies. It would be nice if the Old Guard finally cut loose and went all out while the newbies gawked in awe and admiration while trying to catch up, but it never happened.

Vivio being taken away gave me hope that Nanoha's killer and maternal instincts would awaken, but that never really happened either. Blasting Quattro with 5 Divine Busters was cool, but Nanoha could have done so much more with her sheer power. The same applied to Fate and Hayate, especially Hayate.

With hindsight, the entire Season 3 seems to be a prequel to a main story, a grander story where everyone would kick ass like back in A's. The signs are all there, with new abilities (Sonic Form and Blaster Mode) and gadgets (Subaru's dual knuckles) being unveiled at such a late stage of the whole series. Jail could still easily break out of jail (bad pun intended) with the help of some powerful secret organization using whole armies of cloned cyborgs this time round. The possibilities are present.

Of course, one could blame it on poor pacing, but that remains to be seen. However, I must say that if one looks at the series from the perspective of a story that spans 52 episodes, then suddenly the pacing for StrikerS might start to make some sense.

If StrikerS is to the 4th Season what Nanoha was to A's, then perhaps, just perhaps, we can retain that little bit of hope. After all, I personally consider StrikerS better than the first season, and I did enjoy the show despite its shortcomings.

Fimbulvetr

2007-09-26, 09:54

From even before it started I already had the feeling this one would be bad, yet this show still managed to be even worse than I feared it would be.
The military setting which came with very obedient trainees and a retarded power limiter for the 'old hags' Nanoha&co, the lack of plot for more than half of the series, the huge amount of new characters I never cared about .. there were just too many aspects of this show I disliked.

With a lot less characters and more budget, the story might have filled 13 eps, but I'm not even sure of that. Execution was just bad, and that won't change in the DVD version, no matter how much more pretty they make a few frames.

The only positive part I remember: in ep25, Nanoha remembered that she once was a fighter who could do a bit more than just shoot down all gadgets within range and actually performed something a bit more sophisticated.

My rating: Poor (4/10) <- and that's still a fanboy rating

arkhangelsk

2007-09-26, 10:58

The only positive part I remember: in ep25, Nanoha remembered that she once was a fighter who could do a bit more than just shoot down all gadgets within range and actually performed something a bit more sophisticated.

Actually, the WAS activated on Ep24, so that makes it the first of Nanoha's stratagems that took 2 episodes to come to an end! Makes one wonder why she didn't start her reconaissance when she entered...

Back to commenting about the show, there isn't much left to mention, but I feel betrayed.

The strategic goal for the show is laudable enough. The tactics used in each episode were hit or miss, and I've commented on most of the episodes since Ep17 here. But the worst is the operational art and the art of Operational Troop Control.

Mistake #1: The composition of Maneuver Elements (characters) for both Blue and Red Forces were done poorly. High Capability Combat Maneuver Elements (Aces and Knights) were forced to work with Low Capability Combat Maneuver Elements (Forwards). This is in despite of an Strategic Directive that mandates that all Combat Maneuver Elements be employed. This constraint combined with poor selection led to crappy and implausible tactics (limiters) to ensure the Strategic Directive is minimally met.

Mistake #2: The Troop Control for the Maneuver Elements was done poorly. Given the limited time available, precise scheduling and troop control is required to ensure all of the excessive number of elements have the space and time to correctly deploy (Character Development), and to ensure they pass through required Phase Lines in good order and on time. In the end, too much time was consumed in passing through certain Maneuver Units (Vivio being the showcase) and having the various elements pass through various phase lines. Due to this failure of Troop Control, most characters are inadequately deployed, and one Major Combat Maneuver Unit was permanently damaged.

Mistake #3: The final choice of Decisive Sector was poor, choosing the boggiest, sector, to be spearheaded by the weakest Maneuver Element.

Mistake #3a: Nevertheless, had a slightly different attack sector been chosen (such as making Vivio a little bigger so she can have a real personality), followed by extensive, time-consuming reinforcement of the Maneuver Element and extensive engineer preparation (episodes of Vivio character development), it could have been made a usable attack route. Instead, too much time was wasted either on indecisiveness or a deliberate deception effort that took up too much of the precious Time resource.

Mistake #4: The allocation of limited supplies was done poorly. This leads to an unstable supply situation as the Elements try to advance (i.e. the varying animation quality). Nothing is more demoralizing than varying rations.

So, with all these failures, and all the tactical goofs, it is either 1 or 2 out of 10. This is despite the fact that most episodes will have gotten over 5 from me. Operational Art decides wars and anime.

serenade_beta

2007-09-26, 17:42

Ah, It's over. The show is over. *stretch*

If I ignore my grudge against the good guys (that really came out of nowhere, I think), this wasn't that bad of a show.

Of course, the training episodes and set-up episodes and talking episodes were too large in amount.

The climax was pretty bad (the creators should take hints from Code Geass)

And I never liked the ending theme (both of them) (Too much Nanoha :()

But the action episodes (the few this show has) were exciting and fun to watch.

Now putting in my grudge in, I hanged on to this show for just one real reason:

Jail Scaglietti. The moment he appeared in episode 5 or something, I was like "Hooray!" or something of that sort. He's great, placing in my "best male main characters list" and made the show soooooo much better. Ahh~~ Too bad he wasn't really developed. We got "crazy, uses people like tools, makes the weirdest faces, sparks ten-page discussions, and someone from that place (Al Hazard?). So what is that...

2 smaller reasons are:

1. Numbers

2. I don't like quitting halfway (or even quarter-way)

Ah, but then... Episode 26... Boy that episode was devastating. I felt pretty bad after that episode. All respect (and the little bit love) I had was shattered into many tiny pieces. EVERYTHING went wrong (to me), and well, it wasn't pretty. Plus, the idiocy of taking out Cinque for (how many?) episodes and bringing her back all of a sudden made zero sense

I congratulate this show on achieving several things:

I won't see the word "number" the same ever again, nor the Roman numerals
I learned several car names
I realized just how much one episode can affect my thoughts on a whole series
My respect for the series dropped severely, while my respect for the season dropped to negative numbers.

I give you a 1, StrikerS.

Sayonara, Zetsubou Sensei Nanoha StrikerS.
Don't come back
I won't miss you
Maybe I'll miss Jail
And maybe Quattro
And maybe Otto
Though she defected
And I lost quite a bit of interest in her
And Cinque
Though the writers hate her
Though she defected

*throws salt at StrikerS*

Purge!

S_K

2007-09-26, 19:36

Well, the beginning was pretty slow with all that training and gadget fighting. But it started getting better with all the cyborgs and everything especially ep 17. And the rest were really good to.
Do I want a 4th season- I guess it wouldn't hurt

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-27, 03:22

Man, reading all these reviews and alot of people really hated StrikerS...if theres this much hate for a season of a series that was great in the past for its amazing uniqueness in its genre (mahou shoujo genre), then would it be wise to do a remake or a redo for StrikerS?

BBM

2007-09-27, 03:23

No, it would be old news.

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-09-27, 03:39

well, I guess I should have given the series a much lower score, since I find myself agreeing to these reviews about StrikerS.:heh: Being a new fan of Nanoha this year just made me give StrikerS a high score because it was Nanoha.:heh:

If I had to rank the seasons from best to worst, it would be:
1. A's
2. First season
3. StrikerS

I don't know though, StrikerS and the first season are almost in a tie in my book, both had their slow parts and such, but StrikerS was no exception with having almost half the season full of fillers.
I guess theres a pattern...if you want instant action from start to finish, go watch A's.
Want all talking and somewhat amazing battles, go watch StrikerS.
If you want a mix of both, go watch the first season.

Nemesis

2007-09-27, 06:08

Strikers had potential,but it wasted it.

Sassarai

2007-09-27, 22:31

I think the probelm with Nanoha is they keep getting more and more characters. They absorbed all of Nanoha A's bad guys then they have the new striker unit and it almost seems like all those bad guys from this season are going to turn good if they make another season o_O That would be an insane amount of good guys.

arkxkra

2007-09-28, 01:36

for me i wanted to put it as perfect but giving excellent, because still have abit not that good in the episode, alot training although im still ok with it, but the training part consider giving the new character developing explain(?) maybe(?). Because of training have chance to see the white devil mode, Nanoha finish Teana :heh:, but still training too much, quite bore sometime.
The fight always end very quite, too short. But the final battle, Vita fight almost near death, Nanoha and Vivio fight is so awesome(for me), blaster 3 divide buster 1st shoot to number IV, then SLB to Vivio and the "touching" talk... :p
Other thing like new form, especially the Nanoha the new barrier jacket(excellion mode) - cool, new sonic form of Fate - cool & sexy, Signum with Agito - nice & cool. :love:
But the 1 thing, Hayate screen time was too little i guess, alway no chance to see her battle/fight, this is maybe because she become the head of the riot force 6(?forget the name), head usually just sit back.
About the ending, i accept the ending, it quite near the A's ending, happy end, the difference is it show more people. Everyone also have they own way and future.
For me just can't get enough :p, now it is ended, miss it.

Rating: 8.5-9/10

Chi-no

2007-09-28, 07:42

I give it a perfect ten. Cause I this anime did not once make me give up on it. Lucky I didn't and even got a few surprises from this anime.

The story is good the seq. also. Not too rush like some that I saw. Especially the ending fight. They showed the Aces been defeated and counter-attack back in their own ways. Very impressive. Even for the new characters.

Glad that they did 26 esp instead of 24 or 13. Which is just nice. In the overall, I like this Anime ! :)

Serenity85

2007-09-28, 12:24

Well I've posted most of my opinions over in the ep 26 thread but I post a quick hash here.

Did I like the show? - Yes
Was the animation good? - At key points yes (standard of practice deal with long series)
Would I like a season 4? - Most definitly (can't get enough of Fate^^)
Was the pacing good? - ..... *see below statment*

To be fair ... it sucked big time. Way to much chatting, training eps went WAY to long. I wouldn't say they should have been completely removed as they were needed (not every 9-15 yr old newb mage has uber developed powers^^) The problem I have is they filled 13 eps :twitch: and we didn't even get to see the best ones (ie mock fights, I would have prefered them instead of some of the stupid ones) Emo Teana was a nice touch but 3 eps, was that really needed? It could have easily been done in 2. Now on to the dreaded cool down eps *grr* I'll let the early ones go as the newbs were still to freash for constant action, but what I won't tolerate was after the 2 pivital action eps (retrival of vivio 1, and capture of vivio) They had the best action and most suspense/tension and I was sure the series would keep the pace but what did we get ... more training and tender moments with family (mother dauter crap eps) and it definitly didn't seem like there was a rush to stop Jail/Craddle save Vivio. These eps just killed it for me.

Were the characters enjoyable and was the writing good? - ..... sigh another point of angst

The characters as a whole were good and interesting and had potential and some followed through well. Others ... failed horribly. A good half of the cast suffered shaft syndrome or abd/rushed back stories. Sigh I yacked about this over in ep 26 thread and I don't feel like going into great detail again. There were to many plot holes and some backstories suffered quick finishes that left a bad taste or had no meaning or were completely out to left field (Lutecia's Mom's sudden revival :twitch:) Vivio .... gah won't go into it as the point seems to be mute. Ppl disliked her for NxF fanservice reasons, she was ok in my books .... yadda yadda yadda, meh.

If I was to rate it purely on the shows quality and leave personal feelins aside it would be a 5, but I still have to give the show a 7. I'm a big Nanoha fan and regardless of its lack luster performance I can still watch it happily and will eventually buy it when it comes out on DVD. I still would have liked more, but what I got was fine^^

Leonhart

2007-09-29, 00:35

Well...for me, i think it's decent. Storyline predictable[since it's nanoha nature], The art in anime...ouch. A bit dissapointed. Too many need to change when comes to dvd version. Anyway, i still cant figure out why very less fansub wanna take this as their project.....

Nemesis

2007-10-01, 00:24

the endgame fight was pratically very bad.At least in season 1 we get to see nanoha kicking ass and not holding back.

now what nanoha needs is something good like ending it or a good season.

Vexx

2007-10-01, 22:53

I grit my teeth as I write this because I had such fun with Nanoha season 1 and season 2. Season Three just kind of wallowed.

Tactically, the "limiters" really hurt and were basically unnecessary. Fate and Nanoha are like aircraft carriers. They wield enormous firepower but can't be everywhere at once... that's what all those missile cruisers, frigates, and hundreds of other support craft are for (in other words, all those new characters).

Storywise.... personally I think an entire season could have been made about the Knights and their growth as freed 'humans' battling some dilemma. Okay, yeah we got new recruits and they were quite interesting but anime-wise I felt there was a missing season. yeah, yeah, there was manga.... <shrug>. I just found the Knights to have more story potential.

I did rather like the grown "Aces" concept but, wow, these writers need to be sat in front of about a hundred war movies because they seriously need some clues in how to do this sort of thing. Turning recruits into battle veterans, yada yada....
Come on, one of the reasons the original Star Wars caught fire on the screen was because Lucas was doing shot by shot homage to some of the best war movies ever made and the story line threads straight from Kurosawa's epics and swashes of Campbell mythos. The resources are there..... d'uh. (visualizes slapping the crap out of a team of writers)

Most of the salient points have already been listed in other poster's comments. So I just sadly give this season a '6' and hope like hell they didn't kill the franchise with it.

I hope Nanoha gets another chance with a tight storyline and a smaller cast.

Nemesis

2007-10-02, 05:06

also,even with the manga and sound stages covering plotholes,the quality of the anime makes those two look awkward.When i look at the manga and compare it with the anime,it still looks very strange.Like gagdet drones that dont appear in the anime,why are they in there?It gives me an awkward feeling.

FieryAeon

2007-10-03, 21:20

I personally wouldn't say StrikerS was a complete failure, but it definitely could have been a lot better than it was made to be. The starting few episodes would have gave people two impressions, the first is that the producers just have no clue of what to do with the plot, the second being that instead of the fast-paced and action oriented seasons before, it will be shifting towards focusing on character development. Guess what, they failed to do that.

For the amount of characters introduced in StrikerS, 26 episodes was no where near sufficient amount of time to do that much character development. Coupled with the fact that the producers wasted too much time during the first half of the series with unnecessary fillers on training and such, everyone could see where the series was heading, mediocrity.

Shafting of characters, many people have talked about this. They introduced 2 artificial mages the 1st half of the series and people get the impression the story was about fighting these so-called relic weapons, along came the cyborgs and suddenly its "zomg half-humans are terrorizing the city"!

IMO the combat cyborgs should never have been introduced into the series. *runs away from sentoukijin fans* Hayate was shafted like an abandon mine, Zafira barely made enough appearances to remind viewers that he existed, and Chrono spent what little time he had drinking tea with Carim.

Erio and Caro. The counterpart for the stars forward, but unlike the stars' forward, they hardly had any sort of development.

Back stories, how were the sentoukijin made? What's the true purpose of the Relic? The Saint Church. Its hierarchy, history, the ancient Belkan system, the Saint King, these we no nothing of. (which is giving the people at the OC thread free rein to write almost whatever they like) Carim, what's her position? How influential are Carim and Chrono?

The animation, though addressed by the DVD releases, showed that the producers were really just more keen on spending less and earning more for this series. With the poor animation and mediocre plot, god knows how much production cost they have saved (then again maybe its to pay the large cast of seiyuus).

And the battles! Where the hell did all the people in the city disappear to? One moment Erio and Caro are on a street filled with people, and everyone miraculously disappears when battle commences. Wow, super fast evacuation here?

The epilogue, I didn't like it one bit. Hayate said that she wanted to form a unit not only to handle the relic case, but also future cases along with disaster management and etc. She spent four years and finally she has her dream unit, and after the relic case its disbanded? WTF is all I can say.

I could probably say more, but there won't be anything else that anybody else here hasn't mentioned, or will mention.

Nemesis

2007-10-03, 23:47

hmph,i wonder who was the director or scriptwriter of this series this time?

This season resorts to telling rather than showing.The more they spend time on telling, the worse it gets.They spent so much time talking that they even couldnt find time to address manga/anime continuity issues.Like some Manga seen only gadget drones,why didt they appear in the endgame?Not to mention,WHAT ARE THE RELICS?

Avatar_notADV

2007-10-04, 21:01

You know what I want to see? Pre-StrikerS stories. There's ten years of stuff to fill in there, and Nanoha got up to enough to get called stuff like "Supreme Aggressor" and "Ace of Aces", so it's not like there's no action involved. And there's a lot of material in there I'd like to see. Home time at the Harlaown residence? Hayate going out for a stroll around town? Nanoha going out and getting drunk after a mission? C'mon, it'd be priceless.

krisslanza

2007-10-04, 22:29

BBM

2007-10-05, 02:58

Tomislav

2007-10-05, 23:47

I gave out 9/10, it was probably my best wiew for this season.

First of all, I'd like to thank strikers, because I got interested in the franchise and I had the chance to see Season 1&2 :D

My only true complain is, the should have avoided to call in the fleet with Chrono-kun, and let Hayate blowing the Craddle with a SS rank attack, which we didn't see once throughout the serie. There was plenty of room for an Unison Hiraesvelgr or something like that.

I also hope that the DVD will polish the Shin Sonic Form scene in Ep. 24... those 2 minutes are painful :D

For the rest, I quote all the critics I read, but I keep in mind that I really enjoyed MSLNS a lot: it wasn't perfect, but it was a lot of fun:D

Oh, and I hope for a Season 4, of course!

Exellon_Nanoha

2007-10-06, 02:53

i loved the series of strikers and enjoyed every minuite of it, it was a great series and i hope they make a season 4, cause i'd really love that! ^^ i'm guessing that they would be cause the series has kinda been stll left open, showing that nanoha is once again training people, or thats what i think she is doing, im waiting for the subbed version. But over-all i think the series awsome.

Nemesis

2007-10-06, 08:42

But anyway,i wonder what episode 27 could be about?any summary on it?

Aleise

2007-10-06, 10:52

The series felt like a bad video game to anime conversion . . . trying to cram multiple characters and sub plots together, only showing flashy stuff - but no substance - really, the fight scenes were just either mostly disco lights or show off cool mode #n, to be used for only one blow. Still sad that I consider the best fight of the franchise to be NvF, S1E11.

(But if they're making a game out of StrikerS - a good one, I'm all on it. I wonder what form it could take though . . .)

Vexx

2007-10-08, 12:08

Something using the Unreal engine or an equivalent FPS would be stellar.

Shikimori Kazuki

2007-10-09, 14:56

But anyway,i wonder what episode 27 could be about?any summary on it?

episode 27...? where you find info regarding an ep.27:twitch:

Aaron008R

2007-10-10, 00:31

The fourth Sound Stage will count as episode 27. It was mentioned a while ago in the Music thread.

Fimbulvetr

2007-10-10, 13:06

Still sad that I consider the best fight of the franchise to be NvF, S1E11.Nice to know that I'm not alone with that opinion.
A's had lots of fights, but none on that level (I even think that it was weaker than the first season overall, but that's probably just me.).
And StrikerS just had nothing at all :heh:

arkhangelsk

2007-10-10, 19:09

hound297

2007-10-11, 07:20

The Good
1.) The battles are good enough in strikers(but too little as most of the "fights" are in the training)
2.)Riot Zamber rocks!
3.)RH with dragoon system(nice 1)
4.)Jail is the best villian so far in all the seasons.(there are no actual villians in the previous seasons maybe except Testarossa)

The BAD
1.)Too much character plus poor time management
2.)Because of the character overload, it results in shafting (T_T) Poor Ha-chan.

Personally, I think that it would turn out better if
1)Vivio has been given lesser role to play and stick to NXF service
OR
2)Take out the new characters to allow more space in the tunna can.
OR
3)Do a spin-off just like how the nanoha series is a spin-off from triangle hearts

6.5/10 Rating

P.S Chrono spend the whole season siting down!!! Chrono you might as well cut off your legs and give them to lutecia's mum!!

Proto

2007-10-12, 12:00

For me it was quite a mixed bag of surprises. On one hand, I liked a lot the slower pace and more focus on character development that the first half saw. I liked a lot the Stars Squad characters and their inner conflicts, and since they were the ones that got the main focus for the most part, it was all the better for me. I found the overall setting and universe to be very interesting, and it further develops on what the previous two seasons had presented us. The villians, while underdeveloped for the most part, received quite a good characterization for the most part, so it becomes kinda forgivable. The characters that received the lower end of the sticks where the ones that interested me the least so that wasn't much of a turn down for me as it was for other people. Overall, I wouldn't mind seeing another season even if it focused more and more on Subaru's and Teana's characters. They were the highlight of this season to me.

The mediocre: Overall, the action and character development scenes for the rest of the characters were up to par with many other shounen series. That is, their characterization was quite bland. The story, while it was well foreshadowed lacked execution.

The bad: The. direction.sucked. badly. I think the only ones that didn't know the season was only supposed to be 26 episodes long where the storyboard and scrip writers. They were only notified till episode 15, where the series went under a FAST FORWARD transformation, and lost many of the qualities that had me appreciate it during the first half.

So overall, it was a mediocre series with some big pluses, namely Subaru and Teana that makes it more memorable to me. The numbers weren't quite bad either, and whiel they could have benefited for some more screen time, I liked it with what they had. The character interactions, bar the lighting squad-lutecia part were quite good as well. So, it gets a 6 for being mediocre, +1.5 for the points I metioned.

7.5/10 for me

narmi

2007-10-16, 14:04

Must agree there. The power levels seem to be dropping with each season. When Fate and Nanoha dealt with those 6 Jewel Seeds, IIRC there was a scene where you can see the a very big glow of their fighting looking at Earth from Outer Space. By StrikerS, they seem weaker than 2000 pound bombs, as Tk3997 points out helpfully.

The reason for the dropping power levels was because of the limiter system. Other than that the writers/artists got too lazy. Another reason could be because of funding for the series....

The Good
1.) The battles are good enough in strikers(but too little as most of the "fights" are in the training)
2.)Riot Zamber rocks!
3.)RH with dragoon system(nice 1)
4.)Jail is the best villian so far in all the seasons.(there are no actual villians in the previous seasons maybe except Testarossa)

The BAD
1.)Too much character plus poor time management
2.)Because of the character overload, it results in shafting (T_T) Poor Ha-chan.

Personally, I think that it would turn out better if
1)Vivio has been given lesser role to play and stick to NXF service
OR
2)Take out the new characters to allow more space in the tunna can.
OR
3)Do a spin-off just like how the nanoha series is a spin-off from triangle hearts

6.5/10 Rating

P.S Chrono spend the whole season siting down!!! Chrono you might as well cut off your legs and give them to lutecia's mum!!

Jail was an excellent villian in StrikerS and the fight scenes were too short. There was only a few scenes I'm going to remember for a long time. The scenes where Subaru uses her IS for the first time, the fight between Ginga and Subaru (episode 24), and Teana's fight (for her life) against three of the numbers. Anyway don't forget that there was a lot more fight scenes in StrikerS when compared to the first season. The first season had 5 while StrikerS had at least 15 fight scenes. A few (more likely 4) of the fight scenes in StrikerS were great but most of the time it was decent or mediocre...

Other than that I would give StrikerS a 7/10 since they did a third season of the MSLN series, the amount of time for the each Forward was ok. They could have at least expanded StrikerS by 6 episodes to help give Hayate, Chorno, and a few other characters some character development.

Good joke about Chrono giving his legs to Megane XD.

arkhangelsk

2007-10-16, 19:11

The reason for the dropping power levels was because of the limiter system. Other than that the writers/artists got too lazy. Another reason could be because of funding for the series....

In fact, the limiter only really shanked about 1 fight (Ep5) of the Aces. Ep7 they plain didn't participate. Ep11-12 apparently the limiter was released, as was Ep17 and Ep21-26.

Exellon_Nanoha

2007-10-17, 09:12

is there going to be a nanoha strikers ost 2 cause there was a lot of music i realy love that they didnt put on the 1st one.

aers

2007-10-17, 21:26

It comes with DVD5.

asaqe

2007-10-22, 11:57

It was pretty good, only complaint is that the major deaths only applies to older men like Zest/Regius/The Brains and unfortunately Due. I mean the rest of the numbers were Apprehanded rather then being destroyed. Unless Seven Arcs is planning on making a new series where the reformed numbers by Ginga becomes their own little police force then it felt rather disappointing that Nanoha refuses to see a girl die on her watch, but if they are men gone over the age of 40, slice away!

jukugo

2007-10-23, 00:20

I was really excited about this season, as I had been a fan of the previous two. I remember waiting with bated breath for the release day to arrive, and then even longer for the fansubs to come out. I remember being really pissed at yesy's flaky release schedule in the beginning. And then, somewhere around episode 10, I realized that StrikerS had lost the magic of Nanoha.

The animation was inconsistent, and sub-par more often than it was good. The fight direction had some shining moments of brilliance, especially in some of the later episodes, but in general it was stock animations and "wash, rinse, repeat"s more than anything else. The character designs were shortcutted and homogenized, and while the voice actors did a good job, the script was lacking when compared to the earlier seasons. They attempted political intrigue and complicated power struggles that evoked a sense that these powerful mages were part of a system that had sway even over them. They were not completely unsuccessful, but more often than not it falls short of actual intrigue, and is more of one person being a dick.

I gave it a 5/10, because it wasn't bad per se, it simply offered nothing remarkable. A completely mediocre series.

anselfir

2007-10-25, 02:46

I am sympathetic to the educational purpose of the series, especially the first two seasons. The third season's theme is basically social integration and in some respects valuing organizations for the public. While this message is sympathetic or at least understandable, it gets tangled up with a load of legalistic and hierarchical bullshit that really gives room for an alternate impression, one of coaxing acceptance instead of participation according to the idealistic basis.

This is of course the mainstream sentiment, and I find it tolerable, at best. At least this show does not pander to an antisocial pathology.

in any case, nanoha reminds me, of all things, rorty's ethnocentric ironism. pretty interesting, hehe.

dragonzoid2001

2007-10-27, 14:52

My overall ranking is probably 9... THe overall story was good, the artist and graphics were good, but it was way too short... and they should tell the story about betwn A's and StrikerS... I hope they start another series!!! another Nanoha series!!!

Nanoha and Fate should get together ^^ they make such a cute couple

mdauben

2007-10-30, 10:02

I just watched the last two episodes this morning. Overall, I have to give the series a qualifed thumbs up. It might have not been quite up to the level of the first two series, but it was still good and a worthwhile addition to the Nanoha franchise.

I think the main flaw was just that they tried to do too much in this anime, even with the longer season. Too many characters, too many plot threads, too much going on. They could have probably broken this one season into two, or even three separate series (1) Fate/Nanoha/Vivio arc, (2) Nanoh/Subaru/Teana arc and perhaps (3) Fate/Caro/Erio arc. That way, everyone could have gotten their time in the spotlight, without mixing so many separate plot threads togther. Doing so probably would have prevented some of the older characters (i.e. Yuna, Arf and Chrono) from getting more or less crowded out of the story, too. :rolleyes:

I also thought that Jail was a pretty weak villian for this series, too. Just a two-dimentional "mad scientist bent on taking over the world" with no real motivation or development. No where near as good as the much more complex and interesting Precia from the original Nanoha, for example.

Still, while it had it's flaws I enjoyed the series and gave it a 7 out of 10. :D

Shikimori Kazuki

2007-10-31, 01:00

My overall ranking is 7.

The series is not focus enough is all i have to say. Too many characters was introduced and i didnt even bother to remember the names on any of them except the forwards,lutecia and vivio. Other than those of the newly introduced characters and the old cast, i forgot the rest.

One of the good sides is that we get more Fate x Nanoha ^^. I really like the seiyuu's who who voiced Fate and Nanoha, really. How to say, this magical girl series warms me up whenever i watch it. It started out well but in the middle it was riding a downhill roller coaster .__. . Like everyone said, the good parts was ep.16-17 where the most action takes place.

I'll look towards a 4th season, hopefully not as much TRAINING. Gosh, I remember 1/2 of the season is all about mock battle, chatting and training and more training. But, it can't it helped i guess....perhaps they are training the forwards towards a 4th season ? ^^

Nanoha series has potential and I dont see it'll go down anytime soon. I personally hope they have another season. Since......I can't get enough Nanoha nor will I ever have enough ^^.

Petco

2007-10-31, 19:22

.
The bad: The. direction.sucked. badly. I think the only ones that didn't know the season was only supposed to be 26 episodes long where the storyboard and scrip writers. They were only notified till episode 15, where the series went under a FAST FORWARD transformation, and lost many of the qualities that had me appreciate it during the first half.

Really? If so, that'd make sense.

Personally, I thought some of the fillers and training episodes could have been cut a bit and made into development episodes for those that have been shafted (AKA: Caro, Erio, Lutecia, etc).

Without having to repeat too much of what everyone has said, I give this series a 7/10 - Good but could have been much better.

I enjoyed watching the series but they could have did a better job with 26 episodes. Chrono was really shafted, Hayate was more of a sub character than a main character, Caro/Erio/Lutecia shafted. Zafira's human form shafted. Nanoha's family and friends(Alisa/Suzuka) shafted, never gets to make at least some appearance .

grey_moon

2007-11-01, 00:26

My total score for this series would have been 7/10, but due to the obvious Nanoha X Fate situation I give it +2 more!

I was quite worried how I would accept the adult Fate and Nanoha when I first starting watching, but I have to say the writers did a superb job on depicting them grown up.

One of the reasons why I went for 7 instead of higher is because I do think with the amount of potential, they could have stretched the series out for another 20 episodes or so.

Alexandrite

2007-11-02, 15:37

I know what I'm about to say is pretty similar to what others have already stated, I'm going to rant here because nobody where I live would know what the hell I'm babbling on about. (Also - misvoted: I believe I put in 7 rather than 6)

After doing a marathon of the first two Nanoha series last year, I was anxiously looking forward to StrikerS. In the end, it's not the worst series I've ever seen, but it was far from what I was hoping for and expecting from it.

At first, I liked the addition of new cast members, because I felt that they would help both aiding in expanding the Nanoha universe and bringing some new life to the series by way of personality and actions. While this was somewhat achieved, it fell short of what it could have been. The downside is that too many new characters were introduced, and not enough time was spent actually focusing on who they were. We got one or two episodes focusing on each of their backstories, and then everything continues on as normal, with these revelations affecting very little. The best example I have of this is when Subaru's past and identity are revealed. I was expecting a bit of drama in this, but it turns out to be "Oh, we already knew, sorry for not telling you." Then everyone smiles, accepts it on the spot and all returns to the status quo, except now Subaru has her own deus ex machina (no pun intended).

Likewise, at first I did not mind the training, since they were showing what else was going on behind the scenes as everything built up to the point where the plot was fully unveiled. Looking back though, it would have been much better if the training had simply been implied, the fruits of it shown later, and the focus given to the characters' development and the plot thickening. Essentially, we got about half an episode's worth of that for about the first half of the series.

The character designs in general was okay, but with most of them walking around in a uniform of one form or another most of the time, it was hard to like it as much as the previous seasons where they had much different outfits for each character. Mirroring aspects of the team leaders' outfits in the new cast seemed kind of a cop out as well, but they still looked decent enough. Fate's outfit changed a bit, which was cool, though I think Nanoha's should have as well. The long twin tails didn't really go as well on this adult version.

Also on design, I really enjoyed the weapons used in StrikerS, especially in the end when the final abilities are used (Riot Zanber! WOO!). Unfortunately, Erio didn't get as much playtime with his as I would have liked, especially after seeing him tear so much up in the early episodes. Another gripe I have is that after seeing that Ginga had a left gauntlet for her weapon, I was anticipating Subaru using it in conjunction with hers at some point for massive, pretty, and expensively animated attacks. This got tossed out the window too, as her use of both lasted for about a minute. Rein's uses did surprise me though. I figured she would only be able to fuse with Hayate, but the two unison devices both got used in more than one person. Yay!

Now... as for the old characters, I hated how much they got ignored. They might as well have focused the series on Subaru, Teana, Erio, and Caro and had the former cast show up in the background from time to time. After A's, I wanted to see more Hayate and the knights, but only Vita, Signum and Rein were given any kind of real air time, and even they weren't touched on as much as they could have been. It kind of makes their introduction and friendship with Nanoha in A's seem kind of pointless. Arf and Yuuno getting tossed aside was also a pretty poor decision since they've had pretty big roles in the previous seasons.

Animation quality was... iffy. Most of the time, it certainly wasn't as good as Nanoha and A's, and in one episode (don't have the files with me right now to track it down, it was early on) it appeared as if they weren't even trying. At least the magic circles and spells still looked pretty. And no, the 3D chopper didn't impress me any.

One final note - while the Nanoha before StrikerS (mostly A's) had enough yuri undertones to create a vast number of fanfics, fan art and doujinshi, nothing was ever stated and thus the series could carry on normally while leaving that aside for the fans to have fun with. StrikerS gets rid of that, throws the female partnerships in our faces, apparently tired of undertones and wanting to appease the fans of those relationships (Subaru groping Teana ftw?). Vivio's introduction, creating a somewhat official Nanoha/Fate pairing didn't help that any. I sometimes feel that I was one of the few that wanted to see Yuuno x Nanoha.

Overall - I didn't hate StikerS, despite the image my little tirade may give, it's just that so much of it could have been done much, much better. The story, characters, and promise of the characters' full potential at the end kept me interested long enough to finish. However, if they had chopped off about half the cast and spent a little more time working on the characters that were supposed to be crucial to the story, they might be getting somewhere. StrikerS suffers, as many have said, from poor direction. Ultimately, it didn't feel very much like the Nanoha series that kept me in anticipation of this series. If they do for some reason create another Nanoha series (maybe focusing on what they did between A's and StrikerS, much like the manga they released), I hope they learn from these mistakes and create another series that I can truly adore. Perhaps 26 episodes is too much to work with - the creators seem to do well with 13. Let's go with that, yes?

So again, despite how I (mistakenly - my head is woozy right now) voted, 6/10.

*looks at the post preview* ...holy crap. I think I wrote too much. I don't expect anyone to actually read all of that. ._. At least the rant is out of my system now.

Petco

2007-11-04, 03:07

*looks at the post preview* ...holy crap. I think I wrote too much. I don't expect anyone to actually read all of that. ._. At least the rant is out of my system now.

I read all of it. Though, a little weird was that it seems I read all that in around 2-3 minutes.

I guess it wasn't that long after all.

I agree with your post though. Like I said earlier, I enjoyed watching StrikerS but there was much room for improvements.

asaqe

2007-11-04, 03:10

Well the animal familiars got shafted pretty hard in this one...but one gripe of me was how StrikerS recycled the death format system which is basically old men and the latest sinister antagonist older women dying (Due is pretty much dead although we may see the casualty list in the forth sound stage to see if Megane was the only one rescued from the fortress). I mean, wouldnt it kill 7Arcs to make at one of the older guys survive (maybe Zest should have lived long enough to have him make Megane pregnant and Lutecia have a little sister/brother in the future

Alexandrite

2007-11-04, 13:10

I read all of it. Though, a little weird was that it seems I read all that in around 2-3 minutes.

I guess it wasn't that long after all.

I agree with your post though. Like I said earlier, I enjoyed watching StrikerS but there was much room for improvements.
Guess it just looked long on my screen. Oh well. :heh:

Kha

2007-11-05, 11:02

Asage's post made me wonder... Who WAS Daddy Lutecia? I think it was mentioned somewhere that Megane really was Lutecia's mother meaning... :uhoh:

Chaos2Frozen

2007-11-05, 11:06

Asage's post made me wonder... Who WAS Daddy Lutecia? I think it was mentioned somewhere that Megane really was Lutecia's mother meaning... :uhoh:

Do you REALLY want to know what I think? Base on my unwritten-but-told story of Clyde in Outer-Canaan :D ?

Kha

2007-11-05, 11:15

Do you REALLY want to know what I think? Base on my unwritten-but-told story of Clyde in Outer-Canaan :D ?*gives Chaos airtime with Tomoyo-kicks*

Sorry but I was wondering about the canon facts there. If there's a lack, I'm game. :D

Tormenk

2007-11-05, 11:58

Asage's post made me wonder... Who WAS Daddy Lutecia? I think it was mentioned somewhere that Megane really was Lutecia's mother meaning... :uhoh:

Gone along the way of Subaru and Ginga? Lulu and Megane does share quite a semblance just like Quint and her daughters. Based on the tech shown, Lutecia might not even have a real father.

That said, it is a point where it can messed with. :D

Jimmy C

2007-11-05, 12:28

Based on the tech shown, Lutecia might not even have a real father.

Yes she does. From ep24, we know Megane had Lutecia before she got whacked in Scaglietti's lab 8 years ago. That means Lu-chan is a natural child. They never mentioned who Mr. Alphino was, though.

Tormenk

2007-11-05, 12:37

Yes she does. From ep24, we know Megane had Lutecia before she got whacked in Scaglietti's lab 8 years ago. That means Lu-chan is a natural child. They never mentioned who Mr. Alphino was, though.

I was thinking of the possibilities that Lutecia could have been borned simply with Megane's genetic data before she went in the lab, since there seems to be a storage of such data as proven by the apparent theft of Quint's to create the Type 0s, though not entirely dismissing the idea she is natural born since I do bear in mind she is around the age of Erio and Caro.

Jimmy C

2007-11-05, 13:58

I was thinking of the possibilities that Lutecia could have been borned simply with Megane's genetic data before she went in the lab,

It's possible that Megane could have gotten Lutecia the same roundabout way that Quint got Ginga and Subaru. But I think somebody would be alarmed if 2 mages in the same unit found that their genetic data had been stolen, used to make children for seperate ilegal weapons programs that they coincidentally raid and find said children. What are the chances of that?

Terrestrial Dream

2007-11-05, 16:29

What a disappointment, this anime had potential but it was all waste for nothing. First of all there are too many damn unnecessary character in this show, so many of them didn't even affect the plot what so ever and felt like that the creator put them in the show for selling figurine or something (reminds me of certain Gundam from Destiny). Second the story was pretty bad, it was so generic and I felt that I could write a better story in five minutes. Thirdly the action sucked, the training scene were repetitive and the all of those mission they had were boring. The whole damn show felt like fan service show and it's just too bad since the show had great potential.

After A's, which was really good, I have to say that Strikers was a huge disappointment. Now I think there shouldn't be a fourth series, if they do make one make one in the same universe but with different characters.

Kha

2007-11-06, 05:10

Yes she does. From ep24, we know Megane had Lutecia before she got whacked in Scaglietti's lab 8 years ago. That means Lu-chan is a natural child. They never mentioned who Mr. Alphino was, though.Ah sou this is the piece I was looking for. Now for the last piece of the mystery:

How old is Lutecia by episode 24? I'd want to know if Megane was carrying her at the time of the attack, or she was born at another time and somehow got converted to Jail's pawn.

Jimmy C

2007-11-06, 08:34

She was born well before the attack. Otherwise, Scaglietti wouldn't have needed the High Council's help to secure Lutecia.

Kha

2007-11-06, 09:26

She was born well before the attack. Otherwise, Scaglietti wouldn't have needed the High Council's help to secure Lutecia.Kk tyvm! More crack coming up! :D

-MotokoAoyama-

2007-11-10, 00:26

I'm not too picky with anime. For the complex plotline that makes me think, there is Higurashi. For the daily comedy, there is Lucky Star. Essentially, as long as Nanoha and company keeps blasting things apart with their colorful attacks, I'm fine with the show.

Thus I gave this an 8.

Now, I guess I should be more serious with this "overall series impression" things and actually write something constructive. Well, here is what I thought was good. Firstly, we got to see a lot of stuff go KABOOM, which is good. I love the White Devil scene, and I admit that Hayate blasting a few teams of planes down in episode 12 (somewhere there...can't remember if it was exactly episode 12) was a nice sight. I also liked the change of storyline. Instead of doing another childhood Nanoha adventure, we got to see an adult Nanoha training some newbies. Another good thing is the music. Both the opening and ending themes were very nicely done. The voice work is awesome too, especially Tamura Yukari and Nakahara Mai.

The bad...well...the ending left me feeling...hollow. I don't know how to describe it. The beginning of the series was quite slow, but eventually it caught up pace and then...there just doesn't seem to be a nice conclusion. The last few episodes were so rushed. Many key issues were left dangling there, or the answer was tossed at me in one or two lines. For instance, Lutecia's reason for fighting wasn't even elaborated on. The explanation came as a single line or something like that, which just felt...bad. And the final battle between Nanoha and Vivio really sucked. Vivio is the worst last boss ever. The whole thing was just Vivio holding back and Nanoha doing another "let me love you by blasting you to oblivion" move. The producers really need to be more creative with the endings. After two seasons of "let's talk things over and be friends again", we need some REAL villains (and Dr. S is a crappy villain, REALLY). Also, what is the purpose of Hayate anyway? She's a SS mage but she didn't get to do ANYTHING in the ending parts of the story. As some have already suggested, at least let her take down the ship with a SS ranked attack or something instead of having Chrono and his not-so-needed crew do the L'Arc en Ciel thing again. It gets boring, very boring... And was there even a reason for having 13 numeros? I can't even remember half of them! With a cast that large, there needs to be more character development. 26 episodes should've been adequate for such a task; that is, if they don't waste about 20 episodes of the show doing nothing.

Now, I seemed to have written more criticism than praise, but then, my rating was very much positive because I thought the few positive points about the series were enough to overshadow the numerous negative ones of lesser weight (well...to me). Would I like a 4th season? Yes, I would love to see more! StrikerS wasn't that great, THEREFORE, Nanoha deserves another chance. You have no idea how much I like the idea of powerful magic girls and their love to make things explode :heh:

Bloodseeker

2007-11-12, 01:52

Episodes 1-6 sucked. Well, they weren't boring or anything, but they definitely weren't up to Nanoha standards. Bad foreshadowing and training that doesn't really go anywhere during a time where we should REALLY be catching up on what the aces and velka knights have been doing for the past few years and getting to know Tia, Subaru, Elio, and Caro. 6/10

Episodes 7-9 are a great example of what they should have been doing for first 6 episodes: setting up problems that allows us to get to know the new leads really well. The development for Tia in these episodes is excellent, and there was plenty of good drama to keep things interesting. 8/10

Episode 10 was kinda pointless, but it was more entertaining than episodes 1-6. 7/10

Episodes 11 and 12 were a return to what makes Nanoha really stand out in the first place... the great action scenes. This episode felt like a homecoming. "Finally! Its stuff like THIS that got me into Nanoha." 8/10

Episodes 13-15 was a return to the crap that made up episodes 1-6, except worse, because...

1. Too much focus on a boring little moeblob. Vivio sucks.

2. This was the perfect time to develop the Numbers. Cinque hadn't been trashed yet, Nove and Wendi were just waking up, and Sette, Deed, and Otto were about to wake up. During that time, they could have shown each of them out on missions and given us a glimpse into what drives them as individuals and built their relationships with each other. This would have been a good time to introduce Due, too.

3. They had finally introduced some non-cannon fodder opponents, so it was a disappointment to watch them go back to the same crap that they were doing before.

5/10

I actually enjoyed episodes 16+ more than As. Episode 17 had a real "Empire Strikes Back" feel and was full of epic encounters, episodes 18-20 nicely developed the problem and told how Section 6 got back on their feet, turned Scaglietti from a generic mad scientist villain into someone that really seemed like he had his shit together, Quattro became the biggest evil bitch in the series to date (the cool kind), we got to see a little development for the other Numbers (not enough, but at least they were given some screentime), Tia, Subaru, and Nanoha all had great final showdown fights, Vita and Signum had good scenes as well, and Quattro getting blasted by Nanoha was classic. Some people complain about the last episode, but I honestly don't see why. It wrapped things up nicely. (though I was disappointed with Tre and Sette getting grouped in with the "bad" Numbers... Tre almost seemed like the big sister figure, and Sette didn't seem bad either; yes dammit, I know why, you don't need to tell me, but I still think that it would have been better if Fate had convinced them to turn or something)

Fate's fight was a letdown (despite sonic form and the swordchucks), and Elio and Caro vs. Lutecia and summons sucked (Elio, Caro, and Lutecia are boring characters anyways), but the good definitely overshadowed the bad. 9.2/10

Overall...

I think that I enjoyed StrikerS more than As. It introduced a lot of likable characters (Tia's my second favorite Nanoha character behind Fate now, Nanoha's more likable as an adult, Subaru and Ginga are awesome, the Numbers are a likable villain team, etc.), and like I said, I enjoyed the last 10 episodes even more than As. Hard to rate... 9/10 seems a little high for something with so many flaws. But, on the other hand, I've always told people that rate a show that they hate high or rate a show that they love low because of technical aspects like production quality or "depth" that stuff like that are just tools to an end and that the bottom line is how much you enjoyed the show. (this is why popular opinion amongst critics tends to suck so often... if you didn't enjoy Gears of War that much, then maybe you shouldn't have given it a 9.5 and GotY awards in 3 different categories, even it did seem like a technical masterpiece) So, considering that I'm going to remember it for its better qualities over its shortcomings and that I enjoyed it even more than As overall, 9/10 isn't too high.

MedliSage

2007-11-15, 21:50

Well, I suppose as my first post on this forum, I'll give my opinion on StrikerS... let's hope I don't screw up somehow and get banned... :heh:

Well, I'll start with the good! Hurray! (In no particular order)

The good:

1. The action. Oh glory, the action. I'll admit it took a little longer than I had hoped to start up, but man, it was good when we got it. That sick attack on Land Forces HQ in episode 17. Subaru going berserk ("Give Gin back!"), Caro doing her huge dragon-summon ("Don't destroy our home!"). Finally, the only word to describe those last few episodes is epic. I mean, BLASTER mode? Win. Riot Zanber? Win. Signum/Agito unison? Win. And don't forget about Nanoha blasting all the way into the deepest part of the cradle to almost kill Quattro (I think she should've died, but it was cool enough that I'm pretty much okay with it :heh:). Finally, of course, that last Starlight Breaker on Vivio. She hit her so hard the relic came OUT of her.
2. Well, some of the character development, specifically Subaru and Teana. We got to see Subaru go from this little girl who idolizes Nanoha and sort of a crybaby into her own person, having the strength and courage to take down her own sister. Teana didn't have it quite as good as Subaru, but I still enjoyed watching her go from a girl who constantly overused her attacks to a very intelligent tactical commander. That last battle between her and those Numbers was pretty cool, I thought. :3
3. Music. I'm a pretty big fan of Nana Mizuki and Yukari Tamura (Mizuki-sama especially). I'll admit Secret Ambition and Hoshizora no Spica weren't the best (I thought anyway), but Massive Wonders was an amazing opening, as was Beautiful Amulet as an ending. Regardless of the audio, I really liked the animations for all 4 OPs/EDs. Especially Beautiful Amulet (although it somewhat reminded me of AIR... :heh:) Now, the insert songs, I immensely enjoyed. Pray's one of my favorites of Mizuki-sama's work, and I love how they use the character's seiyuu's to perform songs in the series (like how Chiwa Saitou performed Sora iro no Yakusoku and is also Subaru's seiyuu, Yukari Tamura is Nanoha's seiyuu and Nana Mizuki is Fate's seiyuu).
4. Jail and Quattro. I hated them so much. :heh: But, they were good villains (especially Quattro at the end, I wanted to kill her so bad). In complete honesty, Jail's maniacal laugh he did a few times really creeped me out... >_> But, I liked how we got a real villain this time around -- I mean, back in A's, none of the Wolkenritter were really bad. And obviously, Fate ends up Nanoha's friend at the end of MGLN. I guess you could count Precia as a true villain, but I would classify her as just mentally unstable... she was insane, after. Anyway, getting back on topic, even though I hated Jail and Quattro for their actions, I thought they were pretty cool villains. Jail's speech to Fate really pissed me off though (especially when he said she was just like her mom).
5. After reading the previous posts, I know I'll get my head off for this one, but I have to say it anyway... Vivio. Yes, Vivio. ...SHE WAS JUST TOO CUTE!! And I loved that emotional scene between her and Nanoha in episode 25. I'll admit I'm a person that's really sappy for these kind of things however... :heh: (Before you ask, yes, I did cry... >>; )

Now, the moment we've dreaded... *dramatic music*

The bad:

1. The biggest problem I had with StrikerS was the shafting and creating of pointless characters who were later shafted. I suppose I was okay with Zafira (as he was pretty shafted in A's anyway)... but Hayate? Where's Hayate gone?! And Chrono.
Then of course, the pointless characters. I'm sad to say, Erio and Caro. What significance did they hold to the series? They had little to no development, and frankly, didn't DO anything. All they did was help Lulu at the end -- who turned out to be a pointless character, too. Getting on the topic of Lulu, I had so much high hopes when she first appeared. I mean, she came early, and looked important... and I loved her so much, she was so cute! D: Anyway, my point being... she... sort of did nothing at the end really. o_o; We didn't even get a proper mother/daughter reunion. She was just a shafted character used to occupy two other shafted characters.
Vice. Vice, Vice, Vice. Possibly the most pointless character I've ever seen. (As a warning, this part probably has some personal bias as I just dislike his character, too). OHMYGOD. I SHOT A GIRL LIKE FOREVER AGO SO I GAVE UP SHOOTING... *sob, sob* Do I really need to go into detail about him? They could have spent the money and time used on his character better elsewhere, namely Lutecia (because I love her so much) or...
2. The animation (at times). Hopefully the DVD will fix the quality issues. Maybe I just have high expectations (after seeing something like AIR [I thought it was beautiful]), I was expecting on-par quality with it. It wasn't as big of an issue as it was in A's for me however (specifically episode 7, that one bothered me -- they looked NOTHING like their usual selves), but again, hopefully the DVD will fix these.

Overall, I personally gave StrikerS a 9/10. I'm not sure if I liked it more than A's (that was too epic for words), but I did enjoy watching it. Somehow I doubt most people agree with me, but that's okay. :heh: Here's to a fourth season.

wtffmp111

2007-11-18, 03:57

I can agree with a lot of what you guys were saying. Nanoha and Fate are quite possibly my favorite anime girls ever, or at least they're way up there. So when StrikerS happened to be set in a time where I DIDN'T have to feel like a pedo for liking them... yay party!

The other huge bonus was that Yuuno got kicked out of being a major role! Chrono too! Yay! Now Fate and Nanoha can be together like they should be, no? :D

Unfortunately after that, things kinda fall apart. The story was ok, but all the explanation (both characters talking and us seeing) was either rushed or incomprehensible. Seriously, when it ended I was like, what? They defeated everyone? Wth that didn't even feel like a fight, and I'm still wondering about like 100 different things.....

They really should have cut out like 70% of the characters in StrikerS. Training is alright, but it gets boring, and all we REALLY want to hear about are Nanoha and Fate!!! :D

So IMO, the series should have focused more on 1) Fate 2) Nanoha 3) Nanoha and Fate 4) N & F getting it on 5) a more "evil" bad guy 6) Much fewer bad guys 7) Development of said bad guy 8) Development of fewer good guys, but more of it, and finally: 9) Fate and Nanoha

Anyway, I gave it a 9 because I enjoyed watching N and F up till the unfufilling end, and I'd really like to see a 4th season that focuses on Nanoha and Fate.

Eisdrache

2007-11-23, 07:53

I can agree with a lot of what you guys were saying. Nanoha and Fate are quite possibly my favorite anime girls ever, or at least they're way up there. So when StrikerS happened to be set in a time where I DIDN'T have to feel like a pedo for liking them... yay party!

They really should have cut out like 70% of the characters in StrikerS. Training is alright, but it gets boring, and all we REALLY want to hear about are Nanoha and Fate!!! :D

So IMO, the series should have focused more on 1) Fate 2) Nanoha 3) Nanoha and Fate 4) N & F getting it on 5) a more "evil" bad guy 6) Much fewer bad guys 7) Development of said bad guy 8) Development of fewer good guys, but more of it, and finally: 9) Fate and Nanoha

You dont have to feel being a pedo for liking anime girls anyway, no matter what age they are.

For the rest of what I quoted, you shouldnt confuse your liking with those of other people, since not all of us watched the show just for the NxF pairing. Even if they didnt get a good character development, I liked most of the new characters they introduced, though I agree with you with Vice being one of the more annoying ones.

And to add a little bias from my part:
Blaster mode? Fail.
This series needed (much) more Rein/Vita unison too.

Meatrose

2007-11-26, 10:52

If it wasn't for Kaibutsu Oujo, this would have been "The worst show I saw 2007".

The goods:

* Fate and Nanoha ain't kids no more.

* It's always nice to get to spend some time with characters that you know from a show in the past.

The bads:

* The story was in my honest opinion really bad. Simple, shallow and predictable.

* The "we started out as sworn enemies, but let's be bestest friends" kind of thing is really pissing me off.

* Magical rollerblades -_-

* Underdeveloped characters.

* Bad pacing.

* [Scriptwriting session:]
- How do we appeal to otakus obsessing about untouched maidens and young girls who enjoys playing house... at the same time?
- I know, let all the characters adopt some children... that way they can be like mothers and still be virgins.
- Way to go Bob! You've earned yourself a raise.

* Vivio

* Bad animations. I must add though that I usually don't care about animations at all, but when every other thing about the show fails to appeal to me, I tend to turn my attention to the visual aspect of the show. I know that the DVD's will look better than the TV-series, but even the characterdesign came off as almost sloppy to me.

Okay, before you start flaming me... keep in mind that Mahou Shoujo as a theme has never been my cup of tea. If you're a fan of that kind of shows you shouldn't even listen to what I say since we don't think alike. I watched the previous seasons (Nanoha + A's) and thought they were kind of decent (5/10-ish). In other words, I wasn't expecting StrikerS to be good, but it still managed to disappoint me. What I'm trying to say though is that I think that the first two seasons were way better than this, but this seems to be the general opinion.

Final verdict: 2,5/10

Nemesis

2007-12-02, 05:04

Seeing the recent megami concept art, it tells me that this season was geared for failure.

Mirificus

2007-12-02, 13:11

Seeing the recent megami concept art, it tells me that this season was geared for failure.
Can you elucidate?

Evil Rick

2007-12-06, 02:14

I just see StrikerS and I can tellyou honestly, I was disapointed...let me see were I should start...

First of all I don't like the villan, Jail I mean... he seems more like a mad sientist taked from a Jame's Bond Movie, in the past two seasons, the "Bad guys" had they're reasons to do they're actions, Did Jail show a clear reason to be "Evil"? Personally I'm tired of those guys tath say "Arrrgh...I'm evil", they're so plane and idiot's tath you just can't belibe tath they have a part on the story, they seems more like Crazy or just Stupid add-ons. I just get tired of his stupid laugh

Second, to many changes. Nanoha pass from the inocent little girl tath makeus fall in love with hear to a too militarysed girl, the same with Fate and Hayate.

Third, from episode 1 to episode 14 is just talk, talk, talk and talk, i get bored and want's just to "click" forward.

Four, I had nothig against Subaru, Teana, Erio or Caro, but they arrival was the reason to exclude so important characters in the story? Like Arf, Yunno or Chrono? They were left in a third plan, tath was not a good idea.

Five, to many characters in to little time, from episode 15 to 26 they're launched one after another, Vivio, the 12 cyberbots, the spirits of Lutecia, Agito, Zest, Gin, the tree "brains" and many more tath I just can't remeber they're names.

Six, the so boluble story, first is concentrated in the relics and then just "BAM!!!" All is Vivio and Jail
not to mention the entyre episodes "dedicated" to the four new "stars" live and motivs, many of this wasted.

Seven, the conclution Cyberbot Nº2 , Zest and the fat guy died, it don't supose tath in Nanoha someone died, Nanoha becomes a virgin mama...(no coments), And some of the cyberbots starts to become "good guys" after the big battle when no one can belive tath they're want to be "good guys", it should be better if they had became good in another moment (for example, it should be better if Nº 10 helped Nanohato rescue Vivio, because Nº 10 doesn't like tath Vivio was trated tath way by Jail and Nº 4 but she is knocked fo by Nanoha with no more relevanse)

But well, the anime had his good things, the new stars were nice characters (Vivio is so cute!!!) and at least some characters are just as they were since the previous seasons,(Vita and Sinigum for say some), but it seems tath Nanoha creators don't realise tath a good anime must end wen people like it, not wen they're tired of it, I don't want to see Nanoha transformed into another endless Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh! And I hope tath the rumors of a four seasons are just rumors, StrikerS was good, but also no so good and I think tath Nanoha Should end in A's, so im must say...

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha: 9.2

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's: 9.5

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS: 7.5

PD: I say goodbye with something curios, in Dragon Ball Z, they were androids Nº 15, 16, 17 ,18 & 19. In Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Appear Cyberbots (androids in other words) Nº 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 & 12, when Gin turns "bad" she is trated as cyberbot Nº 13, and because the cyberbots also wanted to capture Subaru, we may think tath she is Cyberbot Nº 14. 14 robots in StrikerS, and in Dragon Ball never explain wath hapened to the others 14 androids...Wath do you think? Coincidense? (Sorry for my english I'm mexican)

Ryand-Smith

2008-01-03, 17:18

Hey guys, I'm new here, lurker for a very very long time, and besides the mandatory +1 Post, I would like to give my .02 USD on this show. Now this was the first magical girl series that I have seen since Sailor Moon DIC era, and this felt very fun. Now I'll go with the problems first. This series had a lot of episodes that fell into the trap of Cadet syndrome, in which it isn't logical to dump cadets into real battle situations, so there were a large bunch of training episodes. We get a lot of Tia's best characterization from the training, however I feel that Tia could have been shown to evolve as a character with real battle Scenes.

Another problem with this show was the characterization of Hayate, but its ironic in a sense. Vita gets just a smaller bit of screen time, yet I felt I knew her better than her Meister. (Hur Hur Vita X Hayate Shota Loli).

Now the fun parts of the show were the Subaru and Gina battle. This really put me into the feeling of GaoGaiGar vs GaoFighGar. The fights in this series were fairly well done, and felt like the best from the super robot scenes, or Char's Counter-Attack.

I like moeblobs myself, so I'm all right with Vivio as a character, but having the future images o f Crown Princess Vivo, were awesome. The Loli/Shota pair of Cario and Erio were nice characters, but at times, the felt like tools to advance the Fate Mama character.

The Numbers were too little, but still felt awesome when they were in their element of combat. Tia vs the three numbers felt like some of the best solider scenes that I have scene for a while in anime.

Darkside

2008-01-05, 04:42

I just finished binge watching Nanoha >> A's >> StrikerS over the past 2 days and liked all 3 series. Nanoha and A's were very good. The sudden time skip in StrikerS was a bit weird to adapt to at first, but I really got into it quickly and enjoyed it. Though there are a few things that I felt were missing from. Chrono who I liked from the other two series, did absolutely nothing in StrikerS which was disappointing. I was also saddened to get minimal screentime from Yuuno and Lindy. Arf had about a total of 10 seconds screen time in the entire series. And wtf Zaphela... were they just too lazy to draw his human form in StrikerS? I was waiting the entire series for it and it never came :(.

In any case i'm hoping for a season 4, because i'm addicted :(.

asaqe

2008-01-07, 15:37

Join the club, I bet you 20 dollars they shaft Yunno so the legion can have their fun...but you all know if we go by law of Seiyus, Vivio can be easily replaced by a shota Yunno in between two well endowed Mamas... /evil laughter.

angel.shade

2008-01-08, 13:22

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha season one was good, a well-executed maturation of the magical-girl genre. Good animation and a focus on well-choreographed magical battles as opposed to the standard shoujo fare definitely raised season one in my estimation. Especially since Card Captor Sakura was the last magical-girl show I attempted to watch, and was totally unable to finish due to the sheer volume of horrible slice-of-life school nonsense and retarded romantic subplots. I easily give it a 7 out of 10. Definitely worth watching at least once.

Nanoha A's, however, was pure awesome, sex and metal all wrapped up into one show. I rarely rewatch the first season, but I'll pop in A's quite frequently, almost as often as I rewatch my absolute favorites (Black Lagoon and Gunslinger Girl). The story is probably one of the best in the genre (not saying a whole lot though), the animation is even better than the first one. The fight scenes were tense and kept me riveted, and the inter-character mysteries and drama kept me watching even after the dust settled. Definitely an 8.5 out of 10.

Nanoha StrikerS was... so bad I couldn't stand to finish it. I watched the first nine episodes and pronounced myself so disgusted that I deleted what I'd downloaded and swore I'd never bother with the rest. Yeah, later I finished downloading and watching it just out of curiosity and the hopes it would get better with time. It didn't.

Major bad points. Most of these have been hit on by other posters but I'll reiterate for your reading pleasure (and hopefully to save future viewers the mental anguish of having to watch this lemon).

It was too long. Like the other two seasons, it should have been thirteen episodes. There wasn't nearly enough story to fill even thirteen episodes, much less twenty-six. Hooray for stupid "training" filler and moe-blob fanservice in the form of Caro and Vivio.

The new characters were boring, underdeveloped, uninteresting, uninspired and just plain ridiculous. Magic roller blades, whoo! I knew I was in for something horrible when I first found out about Subaru's weapons. I'm not even sure roller blades even qualify AS a weapon...

The old characters were pushed to the wayside or totally forgotten about. I don't understand why the animation studio really thought it was a good idea to spend the entire second season getting Nanoha and Fate allied with the Wolkenritter, and then forgetting they ever exist.

The whole "all the old characters are adults" thing. When grown women do little dances and have transformation sequences with costumes and magic wands and things, it's kind of disturbing and wrong. The series had, like others of the genre, gotten away with all kinds of off-the-wall stuff purely because it's a magical-girl story. It threw away that free pass when it turned Nanoha into an awkward adult with an absolutely tragic hairstyle. Side-ponytails died out in the 80s, thanks. If I want to see adults in an anime I'll watch something with a more mature theme.

Vivio. Seriously. There was no reason for that; she serves no purpose other than pedo-bait. The heterochromia is actually pretty cool and I wish more characters could have that trait, but she does nothing useful other than spend the entire show as the absolute epitome of moe. Nothing but fanservice, and fanservice aimed at pedos at that.

The limiters serving no useful purpose except to promote the new characters in the viewers' estimation (oh, Nanoha and Fate are restricted so they HAVE to let the newbies fight), the fact the story isn't on Earth, the fact that every last weapon, gun, pager, cell phone and probably even their damn vibrators uses a Cartridge system now when in A's it was explicitly stated that cartridges were for special occasions, NOT ordinary daily use... the tons of random and amazingly bad plot holes.

There are dozens of other problems with the series but I'm getting hungry so I'm stopping here whilst I go obtain some lunch.

Season three gets a 3 out of 10, and the only reason it gets a 3 at all is because Reinforce Zwei totally owns my soul.

asaqe

2008-01-08, 13:59

You mean Yuri Bait when involving Vivio, because I hardly saw NSFW stuff of Vivio around. But seeing Vivio made me retch due to the amount of fuel the NxF fans got for their fangasm pleasure.

Proto

2008-01-13, 01:18

PD: I say goodbye with something curios, in Dragon Ball Z, they were androids Nº 15, 16, 17 ,18 & 19. In Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Appear Cyberbots (androids in other words) Nº 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 & 12, when Gin turns "bad" she is trated as cyberbot Nº 13, and because the cyberbots also wanted to capture Subaru, we may think tath she is Cyberbot Nº 14. 14 robots in StrikerS, and in Dragon Ball never explain wath hapened to the others 14 androids...Wath do you think? Coincidense? (Sorry for my english I'm mexican)

A little off topic, but Android no. 8 is shown in the original Dragon Ball as one of the soldier working under General White of the Red Army. Octavious, the Frankestein look-a-like.

Evil Rick

2008-01-13, 23:03

A little off topic, but Android no. 8 is shown in the original Dragon Ball as one of the soldier working under General White of the Red Army. Octavious, the Frankestein look-a-like.

:uhoh:Mmm... Yeah, but Octavious wasn't a creation of Maki-Hero...Did he?:confused:

Triple_R

2008-01-28, 22:30

Hi!

New poster here who only recently discovered the AnimeSuki Forums.

The Nanoha series, taken as a whole, is amongst my five favourite animes, so it's nice to find a Nanoha fan community like this one.

As to my take on the series...

The Good

1. The series is a bit too melodramatic in its character development of Subaru and Teana (who, along with Nanoha and Fate, are the main protagonists of the series, imo), but other than that, I felt that both characters were fleshed out extremely well. The Teana emo arc of sorts was a bit annoying, but how it fits in with Teana's impressive showing near the end of the anime creates a nice personal story for Teana - going from a person who overly doubts herself to someone who overcomes long odds in dire straits. I also found Subaru and Teana to both be likeable protagonists, and their character designs were solid.

2. Jail Scaglietti. One of the few flaws of Nanoha A's, in my opinion, was the absence of a good villain who enjoyed being villainous and who had a bit of a dynamic flair. Jail added a certain character to the Nanoha series that had been largely lacking before. He's also the best mad scientist type anime villain that I've seen since Professor Tomoe in Sailor Moon.

3. Character designs. Nanoha and Fate's various character designs, and outfits, were gorgeous. The same held true for most of the cast.

4. The development of Nanoha and Fate's relationship with one another. The two had a lot of cute, nice moments in Striker S that was very charming. The exact nature of their relationship remains debateable, which may or may not be a good thing. One good thing about it, I suppose, is that both fans who perfer to think of them as just close friends (including Nanoha/Yuuno shippers, for example), and fans of a Nanoha/Fate yuri relationship, can feel comfortable and contented with how their relationship is delved into here. Still, part of me would have perfered either a confirmation, or a rejection, of the "they're actually a yuri couple" position. Personally, I tend to interpret them as a yuri couple, but the lack of any kissing makes it a bit ambiguous.

5. There are a lot of wonderful individual scenes in the anime. These include the bulk of the Nanoha vs. Vivo fight, the bulk of the Fate vs. Scaglietti fight, the villains' successful attack on TSAB's HQ and the abduction of Vivio, Vita's extremely bad ass moments in overcoming severe injuries to make a huge impact in the final battle, and countless others.

6. Quattro was an excellent no. 2 villain that you loved to hate. This made Nanoha's epic blasting scene of her that much sweeter, and wonderful.

7. A solid, realistic plot in many aspects. I didn't see many plot holes, or character inconsistencies, or plot induced stupidity, in this.

The Bad

1. The complete lack of follow-up on any "normal human" character from Nanoha or Nanoha A's. It would have been nice to have seen Nanoha talk to her parents, or her siblings, or her original two close friends from school, at least once or twice in the anime. A young woman her age should have some contact with her family, given that her family was always presented as a good one.

2. Too many characters. Nanoha Striker S was a bit too ambitious in the number of characters that it used. This led to a lot of useless scenes involving characters that would ultimately be forgotten. There's also only so many characters that the average fan will care about per anime series, and Nanoha simply tries too hard to get you to care about too many characters.

3. Other than Vita, the antagonists-turned-protagonists from Nanoha A's weren't given enough screen-time, also as a result of there simply being too many characters. Hayate and Signum never got enough chances to really cut loose. Striker S really did fail badly in following up on the lives of these key characters from Nanoha A's.

The Ugly

1. The antagonists simply weren't made powerful enough. The entire ending arc just felt way too anti-climatic and easy for the three most powerful protagonists (Fate, Nanoha, and Hayate). Jail either should have been made much more powerful on a personal level (i.e. having his own massive blasting abilities), or they should have given Jail top subordinates who genuinely were at least equal to Fate, Hayate, and Nanoha combat-wise and power-wise.

2. While the ending arc had numerous great individual scenes, the sequence and pacing of those scenes was very poor. There's no way that your main villain (in this case, Jail Scaglietti) should be soundly captured and defeated in the third last episode. Ideally, you have your main villain deliver a great cliff-hanger moment for the heroes in the second last episode, and then get defeated in dramatic fashion in the final episode. Most of the Nanoha vs. Vivio fight felt horrifically anti-climatic taken in context due to how Jail is already beat, and Hayate and Fate are not any worse for wear at all (i.e. even if Nanoha gets badly beat by Vivio, you just know that someone will be there to bail her out).

Overall, I give Nanoha Striker S 8/10. The key characters are great, many of the scenes are wonderful, the plot does make a fair deal of sense... but they just failed to give it the sort of dramatic, well-timed, ending that it deserved.

JagdPanther

2008-01-29, 08:55

The Good
4. The development of Nanoha and Fate's relationship with one another. The two had a lot of cute, nice moments in Striker S that was very charming. The exact nature of their relationship remains debateable, which may or may not be a good thing. One good thing about it, I suppose, is that both fans who perfer to think of them as just close friends (including Nanoha/Yuuno shippers, for example), and fans of a Nanoha/Fate yuri relationship, can feel comfortable and contented with how their relationship is delved into here. Still, part of me would have perfered either a confirmation, or a rejection, of the "they're actually a yuri couple" position. Personally, I tend to interpret them as a yuri couple, but the lack of any kissing makes it a bit ambiguous.

The Bad

1. The complete lack of follow-up on any "normal human" character from Nanoha or Nanoha A's. It would have been nice to have seen Nanoha talk to her parents, or her siblings, or her original two close friends from school, at least once or twice in the anime. A young woman her age should have some contact with her family, given that her family was always presented as a good one.
I agree with your two points here.

Although, I don't consider Nanoha/Fate a yuri couple. I tend to think they're just very close friends. I don't find it entirely unlikely that close friends of the same sex who aren't in a relationship would sleep in the same bed. I think those scenes were a perfect opportunity to clear up any ambiguity subtlety, such as Nanoha and Fate simply sleeping a bit closer together. I've slept in the same bed as another guy before; doesn't make me gay (and I'm not). Just means there weren't enough beds in the place at the time. Aside from that, I do think the relationship development between the two was very nice, and showed how much progress Fate had made since the end of A's (A's epilogue doesn't really show you anything in that sense).

As for your second point...

NO. KIDDING.

That really irked me how Suzuka/Arisa and Nanoha's family were completely removed from this series. Not a mention at all. I would've thought at least one episode would be devoted to a trip "back home." In the first episode, I thought it was a little bit of foreshadowing when Subaru mentioned that despite her family being descendant of people from Earth, her father and sister had never been there. I figured that was good for a trip to Earth at some point in the series. Guess all I got were those Cherry Blossoms at the end! :frustrated: Really didn't seem right to totally cut out Nanoha's family and the school friends.

Nightengale

2008-01-29, 10:27

As for your second point...

NO. KIDDING.

That really irked me how Suzuka/Arisa and Nanoha's family were completely removed from this series. Not a mention at all. I would've thought at least one episode would be devoted to a trip "back home." In the first episode, I thought it was a little bit of foreshadowing when Subaru mentioned that despite her family being descendant of people from Earth, her father and sister had never been there. I figured that was good for a trip to Earth at some point in the series. Guess all I got were those Cherry Blossoms at the end! :frustrated: Really didn't seem right to totally cut out Nanoha's family and the school friends.

They're not completely removed, they're just not animated. The 'back home' trip was delegated to the sound-only Sound Stage, where we see the rookies baffled by Nanoha's... 'normalcy.'

And hot springs... voice-only.

There's a bunch of other stuff here and there throughtout the Sound Stages basically. Some quite irrelevant, but some makes you wonder why aren't they in the anime considering how much they adds to the story, etc. Same with the manga.

Basically, they lost touch of priorities. They thought spending 10 ~13 minutes of anime screentime relating to limiters (( considering that limiters had close to zero storyline relevance )), 10 minutes talking about the Cradle's 'history' to make-believe that there is cool background depth to it (( when there is not )) among other things are better than spending an episode on 'going back home', etc.

This was basically one of the main reason StrikerS got so much heat. It's very clear on paper that it has all the elements to make up a reasonably good show despite flaws, but they butchered execution and pacing.

JagdPanther

2008-01-29, 14:38

They're not completely removed, they're just not animated. The 'back home' trip was delegated to the sound-only Sound Stage, where we see the rookies baffled by Nanoha's... 'normalcy.'

And hot springs... voice-only.

There's a bunch of other stuff here and there throughtout the Sound Stages basically. Some quite irrelevant, but some makes you wonder why aren't they in the anime considering how much they adds to the story, etc. Same with the manga.

Basically, they lost touch of priorities. They thought spending 10 ~13 minutes of anime screentime relating to limiters (( considering that limiters had close to zero storyline relevance )), 10 minutes talking about the Cradle's 'history' to make-believe that there is cool background depth to it (( when there is not )) among other things are better than spending an episode on 'going back home', etc.

This was basically one of the main reason StrikerS got so much heat. It's very clear on paper that it has all the elements to make up a reasonably good show despite flaws, but they butchered execution and pacing.
Well, that's good to know. In a sense. I just pretty much marathoned Triangle Heart through StrikerS the past couple days so I had not previously been into the MLGN-verse and don't know much about the finer points of it. Never read the manga or heard the sound stages or such (though, seeing some people's avatars and sig pics here, I am kinda curious about the Manga because I'm always a sucker for cute expressions, especially from my favorite characters like Signum and Vita)

Triple_R

2008-01-29, 15:53

I agree with your two points here.

Although, I don't consider Nanoha/Fate a yuri couple. I tend to think they're just very close friends. I don't find it entirely unlikely that close friends of the same sex who aren't in a relationship would sleep in the same bed. I think those scenes were a perfect opportunity to clear up any ambiguity subtlety, such as Nanoha and Fate simply sleeping a bit closer together. I've slept in the same bed as another guy before; doesn't make me gay (and I'm not). Just means there weren't enough beds in the place at the time.

Well, you certainly could be right about Fate and Nanoha. I'm not passionate on the issue.

I was never a big fan of Nanoha/Yuuno, though.

Aside from that, I do think the relationship development between the two was very nice, and showed how much progress Fate had made since the end of A's (A's epilogue doesn't really show you anything in that sense).

Agreed. I loved how mature and in control Fate came across through out the anime. I also love how warm and motherly she frequently came across, particularly given her background in the very first Nanoha series.

As for your second point...

NO. KIDDING.

That really irked me how Suzuka/Arisa and Nanoha's family were completely removed from this series. Not a mention at all. I would've thought at least one episode would be devoted to a trip "back home." In the first episode, I thought it was a little bit of foreshadowing when Subaru mentioned that despite her family being descendant of people from Earth, her father and sister had never been there. I figured that was good for a trip to Earth at some point in the series. Guess all I got were those Cherry Blossoms at the end! :frustrated: Really didn't seem right to totally cut out Nanoha's family and the school friends.

Agreed. I honestly felt bad for Nanoha's family and Arisa, and Suzuka. I loved those characters a lot in the first two series, and really did miss them in Striker S.

Twelvth

2008-03-03, 11:39

Well congratulations people, you've convinced me to TRY going through the rest of the series.... *only got through the first 3 episodes before*

I am still very worried about all the stuff they apparently left out, and other things they wasted time on... but I'll save my final verdict for later...

(while I also never saw Nanoha and Fate as a couple, I never did like Yuuno... I think I always wanted to see Nanoha and Chrono actually, alas. You have to admit it would have been ultimately appropriate with Chrono being Fate's adoptive brother and all.)

Kha

2008-03-03, 19:06

Go for the DVDs. They actually fixed some of the issues there.

Vivio Testarossa

2008-03-04, 05:29

Won't watch... nothing in it that will make a lolicon happy...

Kha

2008-03-04, 10:11

Won't watch... nothing in it that will make a lolicon happy...Caro? Lutecia? Vita. And Vivio?

Chaos2Frozen

2008-03-04, 11:40

Caro? Lutecia? Vita. And Vivio?

Arf, Cinque?

(Though not alot)

AuditionEX

2008-03-17, 17:31

Hmm.. yeah.. I watched Strikers a couple of weeks ago and it's not as good as A's

Compared to A's , The fighting was brilliant! fast-paced and I like the the episodes a lot!

On Strikers on the other hand, I really dissappointed that there's no presence of Nanoha's family nor her friends. Also the first 13 episodes was boring.. Training, talking , training , talking , mystery, that sucks.. but then on I wholeheartedly like the rest of the episodes.

I like all the newcomers and their enemies too bad Fate, Nanoha and Hayate had less screentime and that just sucks..

The plot is so cliche but I like it though.

Overall Great Anime. Added to my top 10 :D

Nanoha

Plot - 7
Animation - 8
Fighting Scenes - 7
VA - 8

Nanoha A's

Plot - 9
Animation - 8
Fighting Scenes - 9
VA - 8.5

Nanoha Strikers

Plot - 7
Animation - 8
Fighting - 7
VA- 8

lzy

2008-03-19, 09:07

i think the worst parts was that they tryed to introduce too many characters in such a short time and that the plot was not very good. plus they skipped their high school days which i was really looking forward to see. the setting in the middle of nowhere made it really hard to relate.

Plus Jail makes the worst bad guy ever. in the first two the plot was thicker and there were no bad guys which made the story line very interesting

The storyline in the first two were way better.

HOWEVER the new barrier jakets was cool. i really liked fate's new sonic form.
i still hope there is another series, cause im kinda addicted. which the characters not too old. like a year after or something.

FatPianoBoy

2008-03-26, 17:08

Heh, wow... after marathoning all three series in about a week, I was left pretty impressed with all of them. Wandering into this thread of negativity has been a bit jarring.

Taken for what it was, I thought StrikerS was darn good. It seems most of the hate seems to be for StrikerS failing to conform to fans' expectations.
The training section was 90% character development, but it's understandable if someone missed all that. The only characters I really felt shorted on were Caro, Zest, Lutecia and Etna Agito. Vivio... I'm not sure if I'd call her wasted potential or underdeveloped, as she didn't seem to have much of a character to develop for most of the series. Towards the end we see her beginning to develop a personality, but her emotional state is borderline infantile from the start. Most people wouldn't complain about lack of character development for an infant :p. Considering the amount of new characters introduced and the obligation to give older characters plenty of time as well, I thought they did a good job balancing it. Except for Arf. Not sure what happened there. I can understand people being upset about certain characters falling to the wayside, but honestly, how much contact is a person training recruits in a new ground unit going to have with an admiral, or a librarian, or a ship's captain off in dimensional space? I really doubt they'd call each other up to say hello on a regular basis, and if they did it doesn't need to be shown because it would be bad directing to give extra screentime to characters from the first two seasons when you have a dozen new ones who need developing. Nanoha having no contact with Earth was a little strange, but I'd be willing to believe that communicating with "non-administered world 97" would be somewhat more involved that dialing a telephone.
The battle scenes were a bit less inspired than those of the previous seasons (or are we just getting used to magical combat?), but I'm really much less about the action than characters or story. I'm pretty indifferent to who got to use what limit break and send a big wave of scary light and whom, although it is neat to watch, and I can't be brought to care about a character's fight unless I'm made to care about that character anyway. So, I'll take characterization over shiny battles if I have to pick. What I do enjoy is when a character's personality comes through in battle - like Nanoha taking out Quattro by blowing the ever-loving crap out of her through the bulkheads; that was priceless - and StrikerS had plenty of this.
I enjoyed the more complex plot (political intrigure in my mahou shoujo?) and appreciated that it wasn't just a straight line from start to finish. It was pretty much the same save-the-world-from-the-big-bad thing that happened the last two seasons, but that's okay. Nothing ground-breaking, but a well executed example of a classic formula that serves its purpose.

tl;dr: I think people are too concerned with a few specific things they wanted/expected out of StrikerS. Taken as it is, rather than how you thought it would be, it's a darn good show and continues the story in a sensible direction - soldiers eventually become trainers eventually become officers eventually become commanders eventually get a desk job. Obviously, with a more background position comes less focus, and to go against that sensibility would mean the franchise has really dropped the ball in what drew me to it in the first place: not pandering to fans if it means sacrificing overall quality.

fict_ticious

2008-04-26, 23:20

Hard time making heads or tails with this series. On the one hand, we get likable new characters, on the other hand, the developments within the series came off as sort of... bland.

Kind of blurred the line of being a "magical girl" series, and what put me off the most was the poorly implemented LOL, POLITICS bits. Perhaps the only thing "magical girl" was the genuinely evil antagonist this time around. Numbers were put in a little too late, and the training bugged me the most. Training could have been brief sessions, and they could have broadened the scope of their missions/objectives. I expected them running through the crowded streets chasing down perps, or busting some Mid-Childen mob boss's drug ring along the way. Music was just bad, bleh, and the use of colours. THE COLOURS. UGH.

HOWEVER, having the four forwards in the forefront of events with the aces sort of made it worthwhile. Although the terribly broken A+/S/S+/what have you had their own struggles, it was nice seeing the lesser end of the power spectrum deal with crises using their own wit and abilities. Subaru might not me rape incarnate like Nanoha, but she still has beam-spam in her arsenal. Well, her IS thingy aside. Tea as the strategist, Caro as support, Elio as midranged, etc. we had them, for the most part, working as a team to make up for being UNDER 9000. What was also nice were the little history tidbits, giving some relevance to the existence of the Saint Church doohicky, Agito as Signum's unison device, and cute uniforms. Also, it was at least interesting near the end of the series - the last third of it D: . Ending was satisfying.

Overall, fit in with my expectations. I tried to ignore the hype when S3 of Nanoha was confirmed after A's, and left them at "I'll be getting something new for the Nanoha series", as opposed to just "getting something new". With narrowed expectations, I'd give it AT MOST an 8/10. Not as polished as A's, took some time to kick in, but it was entertaining for 26 episodes. Also, lol "Massive Wonders", amirite?

Kikaifan

2008-05-02, 00:05

All in all I liked StrikerS pretty well. I'm just too big of a fanboy for the characters not to enjoy the chance to watch them on further adventures. I liked Subaru a lot as the sub-main-character, and for all his one-dimensionality I enjoyed Scaglietti's character. The man made some funny faces.

In terms of animation I can't say I was too pleased. While the Subaru 'zerk and Nanoha-Vivio showdown looked pretty good, a lot of it was just crap. Hotel Augusta comes to mind.

Voices were good. I teared up for Nanoha and Vivio in 25. I don't care if you think I'm an easily-manipulated sap, go ahead and laugh.

Writing I have some issues with. I don't care about the military minutia too much (as I've said before in my mind they're all basically police anyway) but I think the season suffered from way too many subplots. For comparison, A's had none. There's the Book of Darkness, the main characters/TSA fighting the Wolkenritter as each attempts to direct its supposedly immutable fate against all odds, and that's it. StrikerS had a ton. This isn't all bad, since you're not going to be able to give every character significant personal investment in the main plot, but many of these- Zest's conflict with Regius, Scaglietti's interest in Fate and Erio, Signum's relationship with Agito, Vice's trauma over his sister, Lutecia wanting her mom's relic, anything involving Gin- were set up early but went through through minimal development and were usually resolved in one shot.

I think a lot of these could have been pruned away. Some have to be there- the forwards needed some real development as main characters, and Lutecia needed a sympathetic motive to play a proper dark magical girl to Caro and Erio, for example- but many were superfluous. Zest and Agito needed either more plot relevance or less, they felt too shoehorned in. Vice didn't particularly need a dramatic backstory and trauma to overcome. Subaru's showdown with Gin wasn't particularly more interesting than a showdown with any of the Numbers would have been. Schach was totally irrelevant.

Part of the problem is that the subplots are basically parceled out to individual characters, which doesn't leave much room for real development. A few larger subplots might have worked better. A subplot with the Church could have given Hayate, all of the Wolkenritter, and all the new Church-affiliated characters something to do instead of just tossing them people to fight at the very end. Making F a bigger deal would have had the same effect for Fate, Erio, and potentially Caro and Signum. A more developed subplot involving Scaglietti's origins with the TSA could likewise have fleshed out Zest's involvement, given Chrono and maybe even the Lotte twins something to do, and drawn in the Nakajimas.

A larger structural criticism of the plot is simply that Scaglietti should have been more active as a villain in the first half. Giving him sensible secondary goals beyond securing Vivio for the run-up to the Cradle operation and having him work towards them, come into contact with RF6, and sometimes succeed and sometimes fail would have done a lot to dispel the sense that the newb-training and Numbers/Cradle plots are essentially disconnected with one tacked on to the other.

Well, I guess that turned more into my hindsight-enabled suggestions. But like I said, I enjoyed the thing. Nanoha-Vivio plot was still good in my eyes, and the gang was all back for another round, which, for better or for worse, was what it was really all about.

Deathkillz

2008-05-05, 14:04

Thinking back to when I watched it (which was very long ago) I do think that the problem with this series all comes down to the shabby writing. The characters aren't bad but the really bad thing is that none of them were really explored enough and given much depth (I mean, Caro and Erio didn't develop at all throughout the series...what I saw from the start was what I got in the end). If the series had spent more time on development and less time on pointless events. But then again I think timing was also an issue here. Perhaps 26 episodes just wasn't enough to go through everything which is why it suffered so much. Imo this series could have gone on for at least another 13 eps which would have also made it much more entertaining (with more fights and such). The animation was horrible at times though...the lack of funds isn't good at all.

Bloodseeker

2008-05-05, 18:25

26 episodes was MORE than enough time.

There wasn't enough time for everyone to get their own little mini-arc like what Tia had (she was plenty developed; Subaru was plenty developed as well; also, Nanoha felt more developed and all around more likable here than in the first two seasons), but if they had skipped all of the pointless training (which didn't accomplish what training episodes in anime should accomplish) and lame foreshadowing and spent those 6 or 7 episodes where nothing memorable happened jumping headfirst into the story and giving the cast proper development, everyone of any importance (even the individual Numbers) would have had at least enough focus for us to get to know them well and to satisfy their fans.

Blue-Phoenix

2008-07-18, 20:49

Having stumbled upon StrikerS first I have to say my view of things is WAY different. To be honest the whole expanded 26 episode plot is always going to have plot holes and lack as much punch because the viewer has time to make solid predictions. Unlike the 13 episode plot that goes BAM! in you face because it has to.

It is hard to compare StrikerS to the first two seasons because of that.

So with a different mind set I have to say that I felt that StrikerS was really awesome. Of course some of our favorite carry-on characters were going to get shafted, this is mainly about a new generation of Mages stepping up to the challenge. Erio and Caro may not be well developed but thier role was, which I believe was the point. Tea and Subaru were made into solid characters, and this was a huge introduction to real world of magic.

A lot of the fuss is about unrelated sub-plots, but really how often does everything a whole cast of characters do become interlocking? Really the first two seasons were unrealistic about how intertwined destinys are, creating a narrow one track story. Perhaps that is what some people like, but I still enjoyed getting to see and learn about all the different worlds and people out there.

Not only that but what is wrong with having an exposition? That is good writing form.... the other seaons throw you head on into the story like an on-coming bus creating an exciting atmosphere, and a confusing one which is another reason as to why StrikerS may have seemed more boring. StrikerS is simply fundamentally different than A's and the first season.

Nyhaha, so with that said I have to give it a 10/10.

Petco

2008-07-31, 08:44

I was rewatching some episodes from Season 1 and 2 recently.

Even though I watched the episodes dozens of dozens of times already, it got me hooked again after I watched an episode for a few minutes.

Well, I am mainly rewatching season 2 right now(rewatched the last episode of season 1 though), watched the first 4 episodes again(and also episode 10).

I enjoyed Season 3 but after rewatching Season 1 and 2, there were somethings about the first 2 seasons that season 3 doesn't have:

Plot - Well, Season 1 had sort of a focus on the (developing) friendship between Nanoha and Fate. Season 2 had friendship also(befriending the Knights, etc).

Rewatching the episodes again, the focus on friendship is actually something that I really enjoyed about the first 2 seasons.

Season 3, well, it had Erio/Caro trying to befriend Lutecia. That plot was kind of underdeveloped or sort of rushed or tacked on, not sure the right word for it. I mean, all season long, there was nothing going on with Erio/Caro and Lutecia except for those 2 episodes(was it episode 24 or 23?).

StrikerS could have used more "befriending". Nanoha was kind of lacking in the befriending department in StrikerS, well, she didn't have much of anyone to befriend.

Well, there was Quattro(even though she was mean and insensitive, she could so be befriended by Nanoha).

Although StrikerS' plot wasn't set up for "befriending" like season 1 and 2 but they could have easily made it that way.

Instead of Nanoha befriending, we get, Nanoha being mothering(Vivio). I didn't really like that plot. Nanoha is 9, now she's suddenly 19, now a mother? I mean, I'm fine with 19yo Nanoha but she's growing up too fast.

Anyway, instead of Vivio being Nanoha's adopted daughter, I would have preferred if they made Vivio into some 19 year old girl, villain, which Nanoha has to befriend.

For example, Vivio could be instead changed to be part of the Numbers.

Well, I just don't like the idea of Nanoha being 9 in one season, then the next season, already 19 years old and a mother as well.

Speaking of numbers, Nanoha should also befriend the older numbers that stuck with Scaglietti and went to jail instead of joining Nanoha's side. Also http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.global/icons/icon13.gif to Due being killed off instead of befriended. Poor Due. Also, Hayate should have gotten a fight scene.

Also, I like 9yo(year old) Nanoha better than 19yo Nanoha(see below for reason).

Well, to recap: Nanoha should have been more befriendy in Season 3.

I enjoyed Season 3 but after rewatching (some of) Season 1 and 2 recently, it made me realize how much I miss 9 year old Nanoha and how much more befriendy 9yo Nanoha is compared to 19yo Nanoha.

Well, to simply put it short(and in conclusion): One of the things that I didn't like was the lack of "befriending" in Season 3. Yes, I actually wanted Nanoha to try to befriend Quattro.

This is actually why I dislike older Nanoha, she just doesn't seem to care about befriending as much as young Nanoha. Young Nanoha, she practically befriends anything in sight. She zooms on anything that can befriended, BAM, BEFRIENDING TIME.

Anyway, I am not sure anyone felt there was a lack of needed befriending in Season 3(Caro/Erio + Lutecia = too short, the sidestory felt a little "tacked" on if that's the right word for it).

yumichan808

2008-09-23, 00:53

wow, these reviews are soo long. but i just think that strikerS is probably one of the best season of the three. iono, i like nanoha, and i was kinda expecting more of nanoha, but it seemed to concentrate on the other four...

Evil Rick

2008-09-26, 10:12

Keroko

2008-09-26, 11:03

*chuckle* Other two really. Erio and Caro hardly got any screentime worth noting, the only of the four that got propper character growth were Teana and Subaru.

Evil Rick

2008-09-27, 01:44

Nyaa... I didn't liked Subaru, Tiana either, from the new characters on StrikerS, the only one that I really liked was Vivio :love:

9taileddemon

2008-09-29, 01:25

I personally enjoyed Strikers quite a bit. I agree it wasn't A's quality but that would be asking a lot. So here we go!

Pros:

-I liked the four starters. I liked their character traits and quirks. Especially liked them after reading about the sound stages and reading the manga.
-Caro/Erio FTW
-Lots of robots to explode.
-Nanoha going white devil on Teana. Such an awesome scene.
-Nanoha going white devil on Quattro!!!!
-Quattro feebly trying to escape the giant Divine Buster.
-Reinforce was so cute. The unisons were also good.
-Jail. I just liked the guy. He was such a creepy power hungry maniac. Rather refreshing actually. I mean all the rest of the "bad guys" previously just were taking there love to extremes. Precia. Fate. Hayate's knights. Reinforce.
Jail though actually was much more evil type. However I did not dislike him for that mostly because he was created that way. Quattro though can go to hell.
-The numbers were pretty interesting the second time around after I started figuring out who the hell each one was.
-The Subaru/Tea character growth was well done in my opinion.
-Nanoha still rocks and destroys alll in her way.
-Vivio was so cute and the final battle against her was not too shabby.
-Vita at the end seemed so cool.

-The sound stages rock.

The Bad
-Lutecia. Nearly no development besides, "I want relic 11." Also the battle scene with her felt dull. I really wanted Voltaire and her giant bug to get into a huge mass destruction battle. Instead we are treated to them staring at each other for awhile.
-Hayate. How dare you give my favorite character so action!!!!!! And not even a transformation sequence. WTF! She did like nothing the entire season. I mean there were a lot of character that did not get much action. But she is one of the main 3 and got a lot of screen time. She just was not allowed to do anything.
-Too much stuff about the TSAB and its internal problems. The whole thing with the high council could have been removed and nothing would be changed. The Zest/Ground troops leader thing was well done but the rest was kind of useless.
-Limiters. Wasted screentime explaining about them and it made it so Hayate was rendered useless.
-The lack of Caro/Erio growth. Now there was a lot in the sound stages but not so much in the anime. They could have removed the above things and added more development for them.
-Cinque. Cinque is my favorite of the numbers. Strong. Kind. Cute. And only was around for like 2 episodes. ... ARGH!!!!!!!
-Chrono, Yunno, Arf. I understand why they were pushed aside but I still would have liked them to be in it a little bit.
-Vice's past and getting over his mistake. I don't care. I like Vice but your past does not interest me. Just stick to flying the helicopter.

Scenes that should have been included:

-Fate finding out about Nanoha Starlight Breakering Vivio. She would have gotten so pissed.
-More Caro/Erio
-Scene with Quattro in jail in a straight jacket murmering to herself about the pink light. :-)

There are a couple more but I can't think of it. I will edit this later when I remember.

Overall a little pruning to the story would have made it much better. The training really did not bother me at all so that alone makes me happier then most viewers. I am sure they will do better if they make a 4th season.

The good way out weighed the bad so 8.5/10
9/10 when I add in manga and sound stages.

ZeroIchiNi

2008-09-30, 21:23

Well I didn't like this season compare to the other two.

I first watch this season first when it aired w/o knowing that it was a sequel. I dropped it after the first episode.

then later on I heard that the the two series before it was pretty good so I checked it out and I loved it.

So after that I go back into watching this season, but I keep on waiting for it to get good and it never did.

Sure there are some cool moments such as Mock battle ep.8 and the Berserk Subaru.

But most of the time I'm expecting something and it never happened and that there are times that I wonder why bother showing stuff...

example:
- I was waiting for Subaru to use her IS on a fight after she when berserk. especially during her fight with her sister when she was losing.
-The 3 "brains" that that runs TSAB... I was like WTF when they show this. I mean I would think they would have use the FATE project to created clones of themselves to control TSAB from behind the scenes instead of putting their brains inside of a jar unprotected so that they can be killed off almost as soon as they are introduce.
-The whole prophecy thing drags out too long. how much effort does it take to tell someone "I think TSAB HQ will get attack in the near future"
-Yuuno showing up for a little bit in the earlier episode just to say "Nanoha/Yuuno still exist" and then rarely heard from again. (They could have have an episode in which he take care of Vivio for a day or something)

Wow the more that I think about it the more I find stuff that bothers me.

One last thing: I really don't like how Vivio's eyes are in different colors. If they don't have a reason(ie. Seeing ghost, sharangon, shooting laser beam, ect.), they really shouldn't make it like that. It was cool at first in Final Fantasy X, but now it's just annoying.

9taileddemon

2008-10-07, 22:24

I wonder if the whole 3 brains in jar thing was an homage to Cyborg 009. I mean the whole thing was completely pointless but if it was an homage then I guess that makes it okay. Still think they wasted time on it.

Nya~n

2008-10-08, 01:37

here lies the flaw in StrikerS. They had a lot of ideas to go on, but I guess they were dragging the story so far along that by the time the later episodes were made they just couldn't find enough screentime to conclude/work on them.

Jimmy C

2008-10-08, 10:44

I got that feeling too. I get it rather often with Asian productions, not just anime.
I've experienced it myself during my school years. In exams they asked, "write an essay/story of n words on this topic/title" I take my time to set things up so that I have enough words to meet the quota. Then, I realise I only have a quarter of the time left and I'm only 1/3 through my projected progress, rush and finish. NOT the way to manage any kind of production in your working life.
The chinese have a saying for this kind of results, "tiger's head, snake's tail"

Kha

2008-10-08, 19:48

9taileddemon

2008-10-08, 22:56

Evil Rick

2008-10-09, 10:33

Don't know what the reason was for some of the lack of idea development. All I really know is that it was annoying.

Sigh.

I think the entire series would have been made better by taking some of the stuff from the sound stages and putting it into anime and cutting down on the training time. If they had done that I think there would have been a much better reception to the anime.

If a season 4 is made I hope they will read these forums and see where to fix things.

Well, that would be great, if they come and took our advices :rolleyes:

I think that a season 4 would be better if it's placed not after StrikerS but before it, like say Nanoha's live in Higschool and her initiation in the TSAB, man that would be so cool :D

Keroko

2008-10-09, 11:33

During High School all of the characters were apart doing their own thing, so a High School setting would probably not be the best of settings to take. Not to mention that during that time Nanoha's main job is her job as a Tactics Instructor, which means we'll get an entire season filled with training episodes, with the occasional five minutes of High School.

9taileddemon

2008-10-10, 01:24

I think that if a 4th season is made that it will be made after StrikerS. Not too far after but maybe 2-4 years. Kind of around the StrikersX soundstage. A little after that.

Maybe there is a large outbreak of crazy Lost Logia and Riot Force 6 needs to be reactivated to solve the problem. Maybe some of the numbers can also help out or something.

If I ever get time for it, that will be the type of setting my fanfiction will be in so it would kind of cool to see what the anime itself would do in that time frame.

Comartemis

2008-10-10, 14:54

Evil Rick

2008-10-11, 19:14

Setting it around the same time as SSX sounds like a good idea to me. The Forwards are occupied with the whole Mariage thing but I don't think there's a whole lot of info on what the Aces are up to during and after the Sound Stages. Setting a 4th season around that time would be an excellent way to put the show's focus back on the Aces, while also featuring Vivio (and her new school friends; are you reading this, 7Arcs? WE WANT SYN! WE WANT SYN!) from time to time and developing her character (and theirs) enough to set things up for Season 5: Mahou Shoujo Moeblob Vivio. :p

But focusing the atention of a new season on the forwards and Vivio + new characters wouldn't be getting out of the Nanoha topic? I mean, can we have a Pirates of the Caribean movie without Captain Jack Sparrow?

Now don't get me wrong, but I think that many will agree with me when I say that one of the main reasons of the... fail of the not so good StrikerS, was focusing so many atention on the forwards (And my dear Vivio as well)

And, yeah, Syn would feet well on the Nanoha Universe but the posibility of see her on a fourth season is equal to see Mexico wining the world cup on South Africa 2010 :heh:

Comartemis

2008-10-11, 20:21

But focusing the atention of a new season on the forwards and Vivio + new characters wouldn't be getting out of the Nanoha topic?
That depends. By that logic, can any Gundam series call itself a Gundam series if Amuro Ray and the RX-78 aren't in it? ;) Besides, I said Aces and Vivio (and friends), not Forwards and Vivio (and friends). The Forwards, as I said, have already been covered in this time period; you'd be making an anime out of the SSX Sound Stage, not doing something new.

Now don't get me wrong, but I think that many will agree with me when I say that one of the main reasons of the... fail of the not so good StrikerS, was focusing so many atention on the forwards (And my dear Vivio as well)
If anything, the Forwards didn't get enough attention. With more screentime and more character development they would have been much more interesting characters, like the Wolkenritter were when they were introduced.

To my way of thinking, there are four classes which a character may belong to based on how important they are to a story.

Main Characters are the primary protagonists and antagonists who drive the story forward. In StrikerS, the Main Characters are the Aces, the Forwards (as a unit; individually their ranks vary between Main Characters and Minor Characters; only Subaru qualfies as a Main Character in her own right), and Jail.

Major Characters are characters who may not necessarily be important to the story but nonetheless get a lot of screentime and play a large role in the story. They could be Main Characters if the plot merely focused on them a little more. In StrikerS, the Major Characters are Signum, Vita, Teana, Quattro, and Vivio.

Minor Characters are characters who could be cut from the story entirely and have little overall effect on the plot. Most of the new characters in StrikerS qualify as Minor Characters, including almost all of the Numbers, Vice, Acous, Caro and Erio, and Lutecia's group.

Supporting Characters are about as important to the story as Main Characters are, but typically have the least amount of screentime. They serve an essential role in the plot but otherwise play little part in it, like the king who tells the knight to kill the dragon. In StrikerS, the main Supporting Characters are Carim and Regius.

Now usually if you're going to promote a character from one class into a higher class, you need to devote more screentime to them and make them more relevant to the plot. The problem is that just differentiating a minor character from your average faceless mook requires a certain amount of screentime dedicated to them to establish their character.

Now in StrikerS, this wouldn't have been a problem if 7Arcs were only introducing the Forwards and some new enemies as Major Characters and a small number of Minor and Supporting Characters, but StrikerS didn't stop with just a few Minor Characters; along with the Forwards you also have dozens of other new characters, some of them having far more screentime than was appropriate for Minor and Supporting Characters; Vice, Regius, I'm looking at you two! :frustrated:

Besides the Forwards you also had dozens of other Minor Characters who needed to be fleshed out and take up valuable screentime that could otherwise be used by the Forwards or the Aces or Vivio. Along with the Forwards you also had to deal with Regius, Vice, Carim, Acous, Ginga, Lutecia, Zest, Agito, Jail, and dear sweet god, all 12 of the Numbers! And that's not even counting the really Minor Characters, like Genya, Tiida, Alto, Schach, Shario, Griffith, the Brains, etc etc.

Compare this to A's, which introduced 9 new characters (Hayate, the Wolks, Reinforce, Graham, and the Lieze twins) in half of the number of episodes StrikerS had, and did so much more successfully and harmoniously than StrikerS's +30 new cast members could hope to do.

The problem with StrikerS was never the Forwards; it was 7Arcs trying to do too much with their new budget. Hopefully they've learned their lesson from that.

And, yeah, Syn would feet well on the Nanoha Universe but the posibility of see her on a fourth season is equal to see Mexico wining the world cup on South Africa 2010
Hey, they used Keroko, didn't they? ;)

Evil Rick

2008-10-11, 22:28

Hey, they used Keroko, didn't they? ;)

Hu? Keroko?

Did I miss something? :confused:

Comartemis

2008-10-11, 22:32

Evil Rick

2008-10-11, 23:03

You didn't know? Keroko's original design was based on a modified version of Nanoha which just so happens to look an awful lot like Vivio's adult form. I should also note that Keroko predates Adult!Vivio. This is one of the reasons the Cadians are always joking about 7Arcs reading the AnimeSuki boards looking for new ideas.

Ahhh, yes, yes, I alredy know that

I just was shocke because I though that Keroko's creation was used on a sound Stage or something like that :meh:

Keroko

2008-10-12, 06:00

But focusing the atention of a new season on the forwards and Vivio + new characters wouldn't be getting out of the Nanoha topic? I mean, can we have a Pirates of the Caribean movie without Captain Jack Sparrow?

Considering they already made a Sound Stage centered on the new crew, which by the way, was a very good listen. I wish they'd turned that into a movie.

Now don't get me wrong, but I think that many will agree with me when I say that one of the main reasons of the... fail of the not so good StrikerS, was focusing so many atention on the forwards (And my dear Vivio as well)

Unlike what the loud nay-sayers keep shouting, Strikers was hardly fail. In Japan, its the best selling Nanoha season. And saying it was not so good because the focus was on the forwards despite A's doing the same with Hayate and the Wolkenritter is hypocritical at best. What StrikerS did wrong was how they focused the attention.

There are several ways that would improve the feel of StrikerS.

* While the training episodes were hardly as infernally evil as they were made out to be, some of the scenes could have been scrapped and replaced with other scenes that forwarded the story.

* reducing screentime of side-characters would have helped to. Anyone care to remind me just what Vice's purpose in the plot was? I'd thank Seven Arcs for remembering the people lacking a second X, but Vice's sideplot was completely unrelated to the plot. Scrapping that and reducing him to 'the pilot guy' would have returned valuable screentime. The brains could have been cut completely, focusing all the TSAB-side 'evil' on Regius instead.

* Using this gained screentime, proper development could have been given to the other two forwards, Erio and Caro, and their relationship to Fate.

* The Nanoha/Vivio plot. I know that many people are going to kill me for this, but the Nanoha/Vivio plot had one very glaring and disrupting element into it. During the final battle we saw that Nanoha seemed to be struggling with her responsibilities as a mother, she felt that she couldn't be a good mother.

... what? So where was this insecurity during the rest of the season? There was no sign of Nanoha struggling with anything, which made the claim and the battle feel... lacking.

So we trace that back, and whom, or rather what, do we find at the source?

NanoFate.

Now before you begin pelting rotten fruit at me, take the time to realize.

What we should have seen: Nanoha struggling with her new position as a mother, and her insecurities.

What we saw: Nanoha being a happy little mother alongside Fate. No insecurities whatsoever.

In an effort to give the NanoFate fanservice the audience wanted, they followed a wrong path. With the happy little mama-pair, they disrupted the insecure Nanoha, thereby contradicting the final battle. Not only that, but Fate being a happy mama with Nanoha also went at the cost of Erio and Caro's development. Does anyone who hasn't read the manga realize just how much Fate cares for these two? She practically considers herself to be their mother, but her happy family scenes with Nanoha completely erased this vital character growth element from the screen. Finally, the final battle was all about Nanoha and Vivio, with Fate-mama hardly even being mentioned at all. This basically made Fate-mama and all her scenes a complete and utter waste of time.

Now a better way to write this and keep the NanoFate fanservice would be Fate supporting Nanoha from the sidelines, providing support and advice and becoming a pillar for Nanoha to rely upon. You keep NanoFate fanservice, while not discarding the plot.

* More information on Jail's ambition would have been more then just welcome. At the beginning he was the bad guy doing something evil. No big deal. But when the final battle comes to shove, we need to know why Jail is doing what he does, and what he intends to accomplish. We never really got to know that, which left a lot of question marks.

* And finally, Hayate needed a battle of her own and at the very least a transformation scene. She was hailed as one of the three Aces in the last season and the manga, and yet even her knights got more battle then her.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 11:38

I think should agree with Evil Rick with almost everything.

Maybe I'll be a bit extreme, but in my honest opinion referring to Keroko and his persistent disapproval of Nanofate in the series, I think the NanoFate plot of StrikerS (not fanservice, because it plays a mayor role since season 1 in the series for most people) was the only thing well done that made this series worth watching. If they'd removed that I would have stopped watching this series long ago, because they screwed it with the plot, with the cast (47 characters? are you serious!? 2/3 of them were totally unnecessary! Also Caro and Erio were a total fail as a replacement of the old lolies), the character development was in general therms between zero and nothing, and let's not talk about all the military stuffs no one cared about, the limiters, etc. One of the worst things are the action scenes, which were AWFUL in comparison with the first two seasons, and this was supposed to be the strongest point of the series. ..

Also, the technical quality made my eyes bleed in the TV cersion (my eyes only, my ears were all fine since we have our goddess Nana Mizuki with us), so why I would watch this show if everything that it provides is done better by other animes? There is a matter of path and trajectory that was very important to this series, the characters the people love are still in this season so they will keep watching this. Gundam Seed Destiny was as bad as this series in comparison with their prequels, both series were very critiqued but they still sell very well, but not because of they quality, but because they had cool mechas and cool mages (or at least the old ones).

Speaking of Gundam Seed Destiny, we all know what happened when they tried to change the main character... it was hilarious when our godlike Kira went back from nowhere to re-take his place xD So I think we can expect something similar if they try to remove Fate and Nanoha from the first line.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

TheShinySword

2008-10-12, 12:16

There is only one thing I wish to say about strikerS.

Zafira TT-TT.

well that's not all actually.

Yuuno TT-TT.

Well and

Arf TT-TT

:p
Personally I really liked StrikerS. Except for one thing. 7arc seemed to forget that they had plenty of characters who could fill up the roles of their numerous new characters, they also seemed to not realize that certain characters could be combined with others (and did we really need 12 numbers?)

But I have say in response to Keroko Fate did have one purpose being part of happy family fun. Fate was the example, Fate was the "perfect", caring mother figure that Nanoha was most definitely not... alas they didn't play to this except in one scene. Personally I would have rather seen 7arcs try to get us to compare the Fate/Erio/Caro family to the Nanoha/Vivio Family sadly Erio had no breasts thus he had very little development and Caro went right down with his ship.

StrikerS came down to being an example of 7arc biting off way more then they could chew. Was it the disaster everyone seems to think it was? No not at all. Was it an amazing piece of work? Nope not in the slightest. It was just meh. Enjoyable to some unwatchable to others.

PhoenixG

2008-10-12, 12:28

If you mean the scene when Vivio fell. I wouldn't say Nanoha didn't care about it. It's about the difference in raising a child. Both are correct in a way and both are wrong in a way.

I do agree with Keroko about the lacking things of StrikerS.

Comartemis

2008-10-12, 13:45

I object to Haru's statement, but this isn't the place to elaborate on relationship details.

Evil Rick

2008-10-12, 13:48

The basic problem of StrikerS as many has said, was adding so many characters without plot, a good bg and in so short time leaving main characters of the previus seasons to the shadows

@TSS: I agree with you refering to Zaphira, Arf and Yunno, and I must add Shamal to that list, this characters still have lot of Story to be tell and they were wasted only for focusing more atention in the new characters

@Keroko: I must disagree with you, in my opinion A's was the best of the 3 seasons, I mean, 5 new characters is not the same as30 new characters, and in A's the atention was still focusing Nanoha and Fate, leaving Vita and Signum as the main "Antagonists"

@BPHaru: I totally agree with the acion point you mentionated, after the awesome battle scenes on Nanoha and Nanoha A's, I was expecting some good battles scenes, and what I got, was only a bunch of Awfull training scenes, pointless backstories, confusin plots and even a final battle (Nanoha vs Adult Vivio) boring :(

Now, I'm not throwing all the fault to the forwards, the Villan Jail is in my opinion another reason for the bad StrikerS

He was probably the most awfull villan that I have ever seen, he was like a poor atemp to imitate The Joker (and The Joker is an epic Villan) A dumb character, without plot, without motivations, without a BG, probably the worst thing that 7arcs could do

Keroko

2008-10-12, 13:49

There is only one thing I wish to say about strikerS.

Zafira TT-TT.

well that's not all actually.

Yuuno TT-TT.

Well and

Arf TT-TT

Seconded. Definetely.

But I have say in response to Keroko Fate did have one purpose being part of happy family fun. Fate was the example, Fate was the "perfect", caring mother figure that Nanoha was most definitely not... alas they didn't play to this except in one scene. Personally I would have rather seen 7arcs try to get us to compare the Fate/Erio/Caro family to the Nanoha/Vivio Family sadly Erio had no breasts thus he had very little development and Caro went right down with his ship.

Exactly, the one scene of Fate reprimanding Nanoha could have easily been done with the supporting fate scenario, and left the window wide open for Fate/Erio/Caro.

Maybe I'll be a bit extreme, but in my honest opinion referring to Keroko and his persistent disapproval of Nanofate in the series, I think the NanoFate plot of StrikerS (not fanservice, because it plays a mayor role since season 1 in the series for most people)

Plot? No Haru, plot is something that is central to the storyline, if you take it away the entire story collapses. If you take away all the NanoFate yuri-esque scenes and let them claim from the beginning they are just friends, what does that change to the story? Nothing. The story of season 1 would be largely unaffected, as Nanoha can still rescue Fate and be friends (which, in fact, is how a lot of people see it anyway) season 2 would be completely unaffected, as NanoFate played zero part in this, and the story of season 3 could have improved due to the points mentioned above.

No, NanoFate is fanservice, and in StrikerS it was fanservice taken to the point that it started interfering with the plot.

Also, I'm not saying the should remove the fanservice, just that they should have done it differently. Making Fate support Nanoha from the sidelines and turning her into a supporting pillar. Yes, this means sacrificing some duo-mama scenes (and also Fate-centric scenes, like the 'Fate has two mama's just like Vivio' scene in episode 16? Redundant. Adds nothing. Scrap it please and use the screentime for something usefull)

Speaking of Gundam Seed Destiny, we all know what happened when they tried to change the main character... it was hilarious when our godlike Kira went back from nowhere to re-take his place xD So I think we can expect something similar if they try to remove Fate and Nanoha from the first line.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

They already did in SSX. Not a single of the pre-StrikerS characters. Main character? Subaru. How was the story? I loved it. Build in pace, showing the characters established, adding the tension of an unknown enemy, discovery, a little bit of yuri fanservice thrown in (without muddling the plot), and ending with a tear-jerking ending.

And all that in 2 hours.

@Keroko: I must disagree with you, in my opinion A's was the best of the 3 seasons, I mean, 5 new characters is not the same as30 new characters, and in A's the atention was still focusing Nanoha and Fate, leaving Vita and Signum as the main "Antagonists"

Focus in A's was primarily on Hayate and her Knights, not Nanoha and Fate. Sure, they had a decent amount of screentime, but then that's the same in StrikerS.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 14:25

You are being extreme, Haru: first of all you're declaring Keroko to be a NanoFate hater, which he obviously isn't, and second you're assuming that everyone watches MGLN just for NanoFate, which they don't. Like it or not, the only part of the series which revolves around NanoFate is season 1, the rest of the time it's background material. And while I'm all for more NanoFate material, either fanservice or otherwise, I do not want to see it at the expense of the plot, and Keroko's right when he says that the StrikerS NanoFate fanservice interferes with the Nanoha/Vivio dynamic.
Plot? No Haru, plot is something that is central to the storyline, if you take it away the entire story collapses. If you take away all the NanoFate yuri-esque scenes and let them claim from the beginning they are just friends, what does that change to the story? Nothing. The story of season 1 would be largely unaffected, season 2 would be completely unaffected, and the story of season 3 could have improved.

No, NanoFate is fanservice, and in StrikerS it was fanservice taken to the point that it started interfering with the plot.
I disagree with you, the series would be a totally different thing without that. I stated it in my previous post but I’ll repeat myself: I watched this season for the NanoFate relationship since in my opinion the series was awful in all the other aspects, so the plot would have been worst if it lacked of that as well.

The problem of the plot isn’t Nanoha’s and Fate’s relationship, if you’re blaming them is simply because “you are neutral to them”. Probably an average fanfic at ff.net has a better plot than this series, so there is a really big problem here, but pointing at every single thing that was wrong with the series will lead us anywhere, since in my opinion the whole basis of the military issues, RF and the new cast was a mistake that ruined any chance of having something as interesting as the first 2 seasons, in any sense.

And all that in 2 hours.
That was a good idea, you don't need a whole season for that, and they can get money to invest in the movie. Deciding to make NanoFate the Movie was a smart move, since this is what the series is about, and hopefully they'll compensate the lack of action of StrikerS in the movie.

Now, I'm not throwing all the fault to the forwards, the Villan Jail is in my opinion another reason for the bad StrikerS

He was probably the most awfull villan that I have ever seen, he was like a poor atemp to imitate The Joker (and The Joker is an epic Villan) A dumb character, without plot, without motivations, without a BG, probably the worst thing that 7arcs could do
Yes, probably most of the fault is of the forwards, but I think Spaghetti actually was a good concept for the main villain (and it was one of the few new necessary characters), the problem is that he lacked of everything you mentioned.
He had a lot of potential, it could even become the next Gates (AKA the best villain ever ( http://www.animenfo.com/anime/character/image/6554_80147.jpg)), but finally he was another waste of character.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo =)

Keroko

2008-10-12, 14:39

I disagree with you, the series would be a totally different thing without that. I stated it in my previous post but I’ll repeat myself: I watched this season for the NanoFate relationship since in my opinion the series was awful in all the other aspects, so the plot would have been worst if it lacked of that as well.

The plot would not have been worse, you just wouldn't have anything to watch that you liked. And there's noting wrong with that, we all have something we like to watch in what we watch. However, claiming that NanoFate is 'part of the plot of the series' is simply not the correct term. Like I said: Plot is what affects the storyline. NanoFate does not affect the storyline.

The problem of the plot isn’t Nanoha’s and Fate’s relationship, if you’re blaming them is simply because “you are neutral to them”. Probably an average fanfic at ff.net has a better plot than this series, so there is a really big problem here, but pointing at every single thing that was wrong with the series will lead us anywhere, since in my opinion the whole basis of the military issues, RF and the new cast was a mistake that ruined any chance of having something as interesting as the first 2 seasons, in any sense.

When did I say NanoFate was the only problem? It's simply one of many, but its also the point that needs to be explained to prevent people jumping my neck. Obviously it didn't work that well, even though I explicitly stated that NanoFate is not a bad thing, but its how they approached it that was a bad choice.

StrikerS is filled with scenes of all shapes and sizes that make my hairs as an editor stand on edge.

That was a good idea, you don't need a whole season for that, and they can get money to invest in the movie. Deciding to make NanoFate the Movie was a smart move, since this is what the series is about, and hopefully they'll compensate the lack of action of StrikerS in the movie.

I myself would love a season centered around the StrikerS cast. Seeing Teana in snazy black Enforcers uniform, the numbers in their respective lives, and of course more Vivio.

And Ixpellia deserves to be animated.

Tempest Dynasty

2008-10-12, 14:46

.....

I didn't realize that Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha, series and movie, was just about NanoFate romance. I had thought the show was about friendship, teamwork, redemption, salvation, firepower, and growing up.

Viewing this series in a solely one dimensional aspect of just NanoFate makes it incredibly boring and flat. Plot is what drives the series forward -- without it, the entire show would stagnate and rot. There is no growth without plot.

TheShinySword

2008-10-12, 14:48

That was a good idea, you don't need a whole season for that, and they can get money to invest in the movie. Deciding to make NanoFate the Movie was a smart move, since this is what the series is about, and hopefully they'll compensate the lack of action of StrikerS in the movie.

The show has been and will always be about (unless 7arc really screws things up) the power of friendship as cheesy as that may sound (though made much less cheesy through firepower). It is not and has never been about NanoFate. Even the first season was about Nanoha saving Fate through friendship not about NanoFate romantic love love you can choose to see that if you want ( I know I did) but it's about friendship first and foremost. This has been stated time and time again but I suppose I'll have to say it now, the story is about Nanoha saving people (season 1: Fate, Season 2: Hayate and the wolkies, Season 3: Vivio) (Even if in Season 3 there were a couple of other stories going on Nanoha's was about Vivio... poor Fate didn't even get a proper story), Fate happened to be the first one.

And besides the new movie's a remake of season 1 for all we know it'll end in a big smooch between Yuuno and Nanoha.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 15:01

The plot would not have been worse, you just wouldn't have anything to watch that you liked. And there's noting wrong with that, we all have something we like to watch in what we watch. However, claiming that NanoFate is 'part of the plot of the series' is simply not the correct term. Like I said: Plot is what affects the storyline. NanoFate does not affect the storyline.
I think their relationship was an important part of what pretended to be the plot of this series, otherwise you could as well remove Fate from Nanoha's life and see if everything with Vivio would have concluded as it did in StrikerS. Probably she would have be adopted for marvelous new characters now (GO! TEH CAST of 50 characters!!!11!), but that's a matter of speculations and personal opinions, so I think I don't have nothing more to add about this issue.

.....

I didn't realize that Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha, series and movie, was just about NanoFate romance. I had thought the show was about friendship, teamwork, redemption, salvation, firepower, and growing up.
The show has been and will always be about (unless 7arc really screws things up) the power of friendship as cheesy as that may sound (though made much less cheesy through firepower).

And besides the new movie's a remake of season 1 for all we know it'll end in a big smooch between Yuuno and Nanoha.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, now that I reread my post it seems that way, but NanoFate the movie is just how we call it, I was referring that the series was about what the first season was about: Overpowered lolis, Beam Spam, befriending, delicious NanoFate, etc.

>And besides the new movie's a remake of season 1 for all we know it'll end in another big smooch between Fate and Nanoha.
Fixed! xD
Were you trying to troll AnimSuki, ZaffySword? ^^

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

TheShinySword

2008-10-12, 15:02

Fixed! xD
Were you trying to troll AnimSuki, ZaffySword? ^^

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

not trolling just fact stating. Though I have no doubt it'll just be as ambiguous as 7arc normally is.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 15:04

not trolling just fact stating. Though I have no doubt it'll just be as ambiguous as 7arc normally is.
Er...
How speculating about the end of the movie could be considered as "fact stating"?

We have serious problems here :heh:

Cuídate y sigue sonriendo :)

TheShinySword

2008-10-12, 15:09

Er...
How speculating about the end of the movie could be considered as "fact stating"?

We have serious problems here :heh:

Cuídate y sigue sonriendo :)

Allow me to quote myself

And besides the new movie's a remake of season 1 for all we know it'll end in a big smooch between Yuuno and Nanoha.

Note the for all we know
The fact stated: We do not in any way know what will happen relationship wise in the new movie.
I was not speculating in the least. Speculating would imply I believed it will happen.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 15:12

Note the for all we know
The fact stated: We do not in any way know what will happen relationship wise in the new movie.
I was not speculating in the least. Speculating would imply I believed it will happen.
Are you sure you quoted the right text? I see you contradicting yourself.

Cuídate y sigue sonriendo :)

TheShinySword

2008-10-12, 15:13

Are you sure you quoted the right text? I see you contradicting yourself.

Cuídate y sigue sonriendo :)
prove it. please.

Laith

2008-10-12, 15:13

Can you stop? Now you are antagonizing withour a "serious" reason. I mean this is the Strikers thread not the flame war one

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 15:15

Can you stop? Now you are antagonizing withour a "serious" reason.
Good timing Laith, thanks for your intervention.

Sending PMs now...

Cuídense y sigan sorniendo :)

Keroko

2008-10-12, 15:20

I think their relationship was an important part of what pretended to be the plot of this series, otherwise you could as well remove Fate from Nanoha's life and see if everything with Vivio would have concluded as it did in StrikerS. Probably she would have be adopted for marvelous new characters now (GO! TEH CAST of 50 characters!!!11!), but that's a matter of speculations and personal opinions, so I think I don't have nothing more to add about this issue.

Removing Fate from Nanoha's life is extreme, I never said we'd have to remove Fate entirely.

However, if we remove any NanoFate innuendo (by, let's say, placing Fate in a separate room) then yes, all that happened between Nanoha and Vivio would have concluded as it did in StrikerS. Why? Because as I said before: Fate added nothing to the Nanoha/Vivio plot, and only served to take up screentime that should have been used to display issues that were addressed during the final battle.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 15:33

However, if we remove any NanoFate innuendo (by, let's say, placing Fate in a separate room) then yes, all that happened between Nanoha and Vivio would have concluded as it did in StrikerS. Why? Because as I said before: Fate added nothing to the Nanoha/Vivio plot, and only served to take up screentime that should have been used to display issues that were addressed during the final battle.
As I said those are just speculation, because we'll never know "What would have happened if...". But in your hypothetical scenario I believe there is a high chance of Nanoha don't taking the same crucial decision that defined their future, because let's don't forget that Fate was a very important emotional support and was always together with her, she was a example to Nanoha as a mother, and don't forget their promise before they parted to the final mission, that was meaningful. I don't think that you can keep all those elements in the series and "remove NanoFate" while trying to reach the same ending, but it's just my opinion, as I said we'll never know what would have happened if...

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

Keroko

2008-10-12, 15:56

Your theory depends on bucketloads of more hypothetical scenarios, theories, and tiny lines stretched to impossible sizes (if I were to do that too, NanoVita would be damn near canon) then mine. However, such situations have nothing to do with the actual editorial scenario, as you're invoking real life psychiatry here (which leaves me to wonder why you're leaving the flaws I've pointed out untouched).

From an editorial standpoint, you can take out all the NanoFate happy family scenes, and still have Nanoha take the choices she made in the anime. If we replace said scenes with actual development in Nanoha's road through parentage, we only strengthen said choices.

What did Fate, actively, contribute to the Nanoha/Vivio scenario? The answer is nothing that couldn't have been done better and more in line with the Nanoha/Vivio plot. As you said, she was an example for Nanoha as a mother, even though we only got to see this in one scene. But does she need to be in the same room and in the same bed to do so? The answer is no. By focusing on the other aspect StrikerS disregarded in the anime, Fate's parentage of Erio and Caro, you would receive two things: One, you'd have the aforementioned 'example as a mother' and two, you'd receive character development for the Fate/Erio/Caro scenario.

Your scenario, or rather StrikerS scenario, only tries to develop one scenario, and as I explained before did so in a flawed way. Nanoha does not get a chance to display the insecurities the final battle tells us she experienced. My scenario develops two scenarios at the same time, allowing for scenes of Nanoha to feel insecure as a mother and turn to Fate for support, while at the same time we develop the Fate/Erio/Caro scenario, thus leaving us more involved with their story and strengthen the anime overall.

Also, as your scenario filled with happy family goes at the cost of the insecure Nanoha, it weakens the Nanoha/Vivio plot.

Your scenario leaves one plot abandoned and weakens the other, while My scenario only strengthens two plots. You don't even need to get rid of NanoFate at all, you can still have NanoFate by having Fate act as a councilor. Imagine the lovely drama scenes of Nanoha feeling like breaking down and Fate offering council. Do give me one solid reason why the NanoFateVivio happy family scenario is the right one?

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 16:06

My scenario strengthens two plots, your scenario leaves one plot abandoned and weakens the other. Do give me one solid reason why the NanoFateVivio happy family scenario is the right one?
The series had enough length to develop Caro, Erio and all the forwards as well if you they wanted to do it, but it was wasted in more pointless characters (in my opinion Caro and Erio were a complete fail as I said previously, they took the wrong concepts for the "replacements of the old loli cast"), and filler episodes, so Happy Family time and more time with Fate caro and Erio are not mutually exclusive options.
Also you may as well rewrite the whole season and include both of them, there is no problem with that, but the way the series is now worked fine for me, I didn't want to have characters that no one likes wasting more screentime when the series is lacking of something as basic as action.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

Keroko

2008-10-12, 16:28

I didn't want to have characters that no one likes wasting more screentime

Considering there are plenty of people that like them, I find this statement gross generalization of your own opinion, and very mis informative.

Like I said before plenty of times, I am aware of the wasted screentime. I'm an editor. It's my job to look at videos and make sure I don't waste screentime. However, its also my job to pick out those scenes that waste screentime and insert scenes that don't.

In the case of Erio and Caro, many of the scenes with Erio and Caro, particularly in the later episodes, become wasted because they had a lack of screentime in the earlier part. The audience doesn't feel connected to them, so their battles are boring in comparison to the battles of characters they do feel connected to. By inserting the Fate/Erio/Caro scenes, we make those scenes more tensional, as the audience is now more involved with those characters. This means that the screentime of Erio and Caro is no longer 'wasted' but 'properly used'

Back to the original topic, while the attempt at dodging my question is dully noted, you still have not answered my question. Why is the flawed development of one scenario better then the proper development of two?

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 17:09

Considering there are plenty of people that like them, I find this statement gross generalization of your own opinion, and very mis informative.
It's not a generalization of my opinion and it's not mis informative either, you just need to look at the popularity polls. If we compare Nanoha and Fate with Caro and Erio and put them into a chart we would have in the best case something like this:

Erio Mondial: 3,52%
Caro Ru Lushe: 6,39%
Nanoha Takamachi: 41,18%
Fate Testarossa: 48,89%

(Not exclusive, those who like Erio may like Caro as well)

Taking the poll from this board would be a bad idea since this is a very closed community and we are not Japan, so I took a representative sample of works (5767) made by Japanese fans, and extrapolate that to the whole fanbase. This is just an estimation, but the numbers of the real polls should be something similar to this.

Back to the original topic, while the attempt at dodging my question is dully noted, you still have not answered my question. Why is the flawed development of one scenario better then the proper development of two?
It's not better, is worst. That's simple logic, I didn't even need to think the answer :heh:

I said that the series was long enough to develop all the forwards if they wanted as well, but they wasted whole episodes with filler, training, and useless characters. They gave priority to Nanoha and Fate, and that's logic too because they are the most popular characters, but that doesn't means that they couldn't eliminate a random filler episode and gave the forwards some character development, and don't have nothing against that.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

TheShinySword

2008-10-12, 17:18

I said that the series was long enough to develop all the forwards if they wanted as well, but they wasted whole episodes with filler, training, and useless characters. They gave priority to Nanoha and Fate, and that's logic too because they are the most popular characters, but that doesn't means that they couldn't eliminate a random filler episode and gave the forwards some character development, and don't have nothing against that.

Actually they didn't give Fate priority at all. She didn't even have her own plot line. Subaru got priority and Tia a bit of it. Nanoha being the title character got her story line but Fate had none.

Keroko

2008-10-12, 17:23

It's not a generalization of my opinion and it's not mis informative either, you just need to look at the popularity polls. If we compare Nanoha and Fate with Caro and Erio and put them into a chart we would have in the best case something like this:

Characters scoring low on favourite character polls does not mean people hate those characters. It just means they like other characters better. I mean, I voted Nanoha on our poll, but I like Erio and Caro. If your entire statement of people disliking characters hangs in the balance of something as inaccurate as favorite character polls, then I don't even need to try and tell you how flawed your argument is.

It's not better, is worst. That's simple logic, I didn't even need to think the answer :heh:

So let me get this straight, I specifically said that you wouldn't lose NanoFate, that there would be plenty of options and scenes for NanoFate, and that the story would be off for the better, but for the sole reason that Nanoha and Fate wouldn't be a mama-pair you decide to screw over the rest of the story?

I said that the series was long enough to develop all the forwards if they wanted as well, but they wasted whole episodes with filler, training, and useless characters. They gave priority to Nanoha and Fate, and that's logic too because they are the most popular characters, but that doesn't means that they couldn't eliminate a random filler episode and gave the forwards some character development, and don't have nothing against that.

Yes, but developing Erio and Caro would mean getting Fate involved, which is something you are vehemently protesting against.

Actually they didn't give Fate priority at all. She didn't even have her own plot line. Subaru got priority and Tia a bit of it. Nanoha being the title character got her story line but Fate had none.

And as the final battle showed, Fate/Erio/Caro was supposed to be her plot line. But it got dumped in favor of... guess what? NanoFate.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 17:25

Actually they didn't give Fate priority at all. She didn't even have her own plot line. Subaru got priority and Tia a bit of it. Nanoha being the title character got her story line but Fate had none.
Yes, I think that was one of the worst mistakes of this season, since she's the character that the people most wanted to see she was a bit involved in everything, and she even has more screen time than Nanoha and any other character in some of the episodes, but that was a bad idea, being the counterpart of Nanoha if they wanted to keep both of their characters in screen it would be better if they gave them something to do, that's one of the reasons why I said that the whole basis of this third season is worng.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

TheShinySword

2008-10-12, 17:32

Yes, I think that was one of the worst mistakes of this season, since she's the character that the people most wanted to see she was a bit involved in everything, and she even has more screen time than Nanoha and any other character in some of the episodes, but that was a bad idea, being the counterpart of Nanoha if they wanted to keep both of their characters in screen it would be better if they gave them something to do, that's one of the reasons why I said that the whole basis of this third season is worng.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

Which is why having an Erio/Caro/Fate plotline would have been the wiser move by 7arc. It's the only logical plotline that would tie in to the others, give Erio and Caro proper development AND give Fate much more screen time (and as Keroko stated that scene implies that would have been the end of a fufilling plot. How much more rewarding would that scene have been if we'd seen Fate looking after them, protecting them then letting them return the favor). The popularity doesn't matter they're unpopular because 7arc didn't give anyone a chance to actually like them had 7arc chosen this path those two might have stood a chance.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 17:41

The popularity doesn't matter they're unpopular because 7arc didn't give anyone a chance to actually like them had 7arc chosen this path those two might have stood a chance.
Yeah, it's their fault, in first place they shouldn't have introduced this kind of character in the "main cast" if they didn't plan to develop them, but the popularity definitely matters, since it's directly proportional to the incoming of this franchise. This is business, etc.

Characters scoring low on favourite character polls does not mean people hate those characters. It just means they like other characters better. I mean, I voted Nanoha on our poll, but I like Erio and Caro. If your entire statement of people disliking characters hangs in the balance of something as inaccurate as favorite character polls, then I don't even need to try and tell you how flawed your argument is.
No, I extrapolated the the data from the works of the Japanese fans, so the results are not exclusive. For example if an artist made a Nanoha Fanart, and then a Erio Fanart, I count for both. If another author made a single Caro x Erio fanart, is one point to each one, that's how it works.

I didn't say that Erio and Caro were hated by all of the people who prefer Nanoha and Fate rather than them, but is clear that they prefer the other characters, so this way the Studio knows what the fans want to see and how to use their screen time.

So let me get this straight, I specifically said that you wouldn't lose NanoFate, that there would be plenty of options and scenes for NanoFate, and that the story would be off for the better, but for the sole reason that Nanoha and Fate wouldn't be a mama-pair you decide to screw over the rest of the story?
You said to have them in separate rooms and everything, I obviously would prefer the happy family scenario rather than something else.

Yes, but developing Erio and Caro would mean getting Fate involved, which is something you are vehemently protesting against.
Why I would mind? I don't mind as long as you don't remove any of the existent NanoFate, I said that there is plenty of screen time to do whatever you want if you do this series well :)

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

Keroko

2008-10-12, 17:53

No, I extrapolated the the data from the works of the Japanese fans, so the results are not exclusive. For example if an artist made a Nanoha Fanart, and then a Erio Fanart, I count for both. If another author made a single Caro x Erio fanart, is one point to each one, that's how it works.

I didn't say that Erio and Caro were hated by all of the people who prefer Nanoha and Fate rather than them, but is clear that they prefer the other characters, so this way the Studio knows what the fans want to see and how to use their screen time.

Counting fanart? That's... arguably even worse, considering Nanoha and Fate have, what? A four year head start? And as TSS pointed out, with proper development the fans might have been thinking a lot differently. Teana and Subaru received proper development, and their fanart branches are booming.

You said to have them in separate rooms and everything, I obviously would prefer the happy family scenario rather than something else.

*smacks face* That was just an example of how you can remove NanoFate scenes entirely without completely erasing Fate, which was what you were suggesting. Obviously I'd keep most of the scenes as they are, but I would rewrite the Fate-mama scenario to focus on Erio/Caro rather then Nanoha/Vivio because, as I have explained many times, Fate-mama disrupted the Nanoha/Vivio plot.

I don't mind fanservice, but fanservice that disrupts the plot is something I loathe.

Why I would mind? I don't mind as long as you don't remove any of the existent NanoFate, I said that there is plenty of screen time to do whatever you want if you do this series well :)

Once again you're fabulously missing the point I've been trying to make clear. NanoFate was the reason the Fate/Erio/Caro plotline got scrapped. Now obviously, to get this plotline back without contradicting, you'd have to cut down on the NanoFate and focus on the Fate/Erio/Caro. I'll admit that doing both is possible with a bit of tweaking in the allocation of screentime, but that still wouldn't solve the issue of the Nanoha/Vivio plot being run into the ground, not to mention it still doesn't solve the other problems such as Hayate's screentime and proper introduction of the numbers and explanations of Jail's goal.

Comartemis

2008-10-12, 17:53

So let me get this straight, I specifically said that you wouldn't lose NanoFate, that there would be plenty of options and scenes for NanoFate, and that the story would be off for the better, but for the sole reason that Nanoha and Fate wouldn't be a mama-pair you decide to screw over the rest of the story?
Give it up Kero. Haru's as bad as ark is when it comes to considering other peoples' opinions, at least insofar as his precious Sacred Pairing is concerned.

You said to have them in separate rooms and everything, I obviously would prefer the happy family scenario rather than something else.
So you can't do NanoFate without having them sleep in the same bed and be a lovey dovey couple?

Let me pose a question to you regarding the character dynamics here, Haru. There is a fic on my old boards called 'A Bridge Over Troubled Waters' which features the NanoFate pairing as Fate pining for Nanoha, who is clueless about Fate's feelings for her, while Hayate stands off to one side and plays matchmaker on Fate's behalf, usually with highly amusing consequences. The author has hinted that Fate is eventually going to get around to confessing her feelings to Nanoha, but for the time being the focus is more on the story and less on the relationship. Now am I understanding correctly that you would pass on such a fic simply because it doesn't have the "Happy Family" relationship?

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 18:23

Counting fanart? That's... arguably even worse, considering Nanoha and Fate have, what? A four year head start? And as TSS pointed out, with proper development the fans might have been thinking a lot differently. Teana and Subaru received proper development, and their fanart branches are booming.
Taking the amount of fans who draws as a sample of a fanbase seems pretty representative to me, since the capability of drawing doesn't depend of critical factors in this mater, like age or favorite anime genre.
Nanoha and Fate are in the series from the first season, so you need to start counting there, since the people liked them from that point. Otherwise it would be like saying "It's not fair! Wii sells more than PS3 because its cheaper!" or "XBox 360 only sells more than PS3 because it came out a year before!". Excuses, those are competitive advantages and that's how our market works.

*smacks face* That was just an example of how you can remove NanoFate scenes entirely without completely erasing Fate, which is what you were suggesting. Obviously I'd keep most of the scenes as they are, but I would rewrite the Fate-mama scenario to focuss on Erio/Caro because, as I have explained many times, Fate-mama disrupted the Nanoha/Vivio plot.

I don't mind fanservice, but fanservice that disrupts the plot is something I loathe.

Once again you're fabulously missing the point I've been trying to make clear. NanoFate was the reason the Fate/Erio/Caro plotline got scrapped. Now obviously, to get this plotline back without contradicting, you'd have to cut down on the NanoFate and focuss on the Fate/Erio/Caro.
I insist, you have enough screen time to do both. I will keep thinking that NanoFate plot helped with the Nanoha/Vivio plot, or in the worst case if it was "that bad" for you, you can get something better just by sending Fate to rescue Vivio as well instead of capture a not developed villain, and having a happy family reunion there and another poor fight.

So you can't do NanoFate without having them sleep in the same bed and be a lovey dovey couple?

Let me pose a question to you regarding the character dynamics here, Haru. There is a fic on my old boards called 'A Bridge Over Troubled Waters' which features the NanoFate pairing as Fate pining for Nanoha, who is clueless about Fate's feelings for her, while Hayate stands off to one side and plays matchmaker on Fate's behalf, usually with highly amusing consequences. The author has hinted that Fate is eventually going to get around to confessing her feelings to Nanoha, but for the time being the focus is more on the story and less on the relationship. Now am I understanding correctly that you would pass on such a fic simply because it doesn't have the "Happy Family" relationship?
Of course I read that kind of fic, in fact AU fics are my favorite kind from this series (since they kind of screwed everything with this season, so is good when the people "fix" the universe). The best fic from this series I have ever read is Providence (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4399136/1/Providence), which is beyond epic in so many levels! And it almost doesn't resembles so much from the original series (Epic Fantasy FTW!), and it doesn't has too much NanoFate either, but I completely love it.
The fic you mentioned sounds good, but I don't recall it at ff.net. Is posted in another site?

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

Comartemis

2008-10-12, 18:40

Pardon, it's not "Bridge Over Troubled Waters", it's "Through Troubled Waters" by Akuma-sama. And it's not an AU; it's canon-compliant up until the very tail end of StrikerS because the author started writing before episode 25 had been subbed, so there was no Adult!Vivio and there was no splitting up of RF6 afterwards. He hasn't yet mentioned what did happen in his version, but I think he'll probably get around to it sooner or later. He also says he's going to make Teana get over her inferiority complex even if Vita has to beat it out of her, something I'm looking forward to.

“Nanoha isn’t that bad,” Fate protested.

Hayate snickered. “And here we have the girlfriend defending her lover…”

Fate grew crimson. “Wh—Wha…No! We’re…I mean…” she stammered awkwardly.

Hayate blinked, and Fate almost heard the gears rolling around inside her head. “Wait… are you saying… you’re saying you’re… not? Not lovers, I mean? I mean… I just…everyone just assumed…”

“We’re just friends,” Fate protested.

“Who sleep in the same bed?” Hayate pressed. “And I’ve seen what you wear to sleep.”

“It’s just a habit we got into when she was hurt. And I like lingerie.”

“Who take showers together?”

“Not very often—and it’s more convenient—”

“Who have a child together?”

“Vivio isn’t—I mean—”

“Who kiss in front of everyone during the inauguration party?”

“She was drunk!”

“You weren’t.”

Prologue and Chapter 1 (http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2148&highlight=)
Chapter 2 (http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2286&highlight=)
Chapter 3 (still in progress) (http://www.fukufics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2908&highlight=)

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 18:53

RadiantBeam

2008-10-12, 19:02

As I learned early on that StrikerS was 26 episodes compared to the original 13-episode format of Nanoha and A's I came into it with differen expectations. In general a shorter series gets you quicker because it doesn't have the time to build things up and make the plot complicated; in the case of StrikerS, however, they had this chance.

On that note, I immensely enjoyed StrikerS; I loved it just as much as I loved the original Nanoha and A's. The role of Nanoha as a mother was extremely sweet, and Vivio was the most adorable thing. The Fowards were well characterized, with the exceptions of Caro and Erio near the end, as I felt they got a little shafted. Jail was a worthy villian to the story, right on par with Precia in my mind.

The season wasn't without its shortcomings; I was paticularly displeased with the lack of characterization for Lutecia, Zest, and Agito (seeing the three of them more would have been awesome) and even the Numbers felt a little flat to me (even now I can't remember who is who with the exception of a few). The plot had its holes, but every plot usually does.

Overall, I enjoyed StrikerS. So, I give it an 8/10. It was really good, but it could have been better.

Evil Rick

2008-10-12, 20:10

RadiantBeam

2008-10-12, 20:15

You hited the point, they had the chance, but they didn't used it

I think the biggest problem in StrikerS wasn't so much that they didn't use the chance to have 26 episodes to build up a plot, but rather they tried to use it too much. Honestly, 26 isn't a very big number to begin with. I get the feeling that the producers wanted to do a lot more with StrikerS (at least I think they did, since they introduced Lutecia, Zest, and Agito early on and Ginga getting brainwashed), but in the end they didn't really have the time or the episode number to make it all come together.

That was a problem with StrikerS; you got a feeling that the plot was supposed to be bigger than it actually turned out to be.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 20:21

And to the people discuysing about NanoFate, in the 3 seasons, never, and I say never, is anything pointing at a Yuri relation between Nanoha and Fate, the fans are the ones who craeted that concept ;)

En el hilo de relaciones ya se ha discutido y rediscutido esto ^^U
Si es verdad que hay indicios por todos lados de su relación, no hay prueba concluyente de que sea real, ni tampoco hay nada que lo deniegue, por lo que cada quien es libre de pensar lo que sea. Considerando que el fandom de NanoFate es uno de los fandoms yuri más grande del mundo (si es que ya no es el más grande) no era de esperarse menos del estudio ^^

Take care and keep smiling :)

Evil Rick

2008-10-12, 20:33

I think the biggest problem in StrikerS wasn't so much that they didn't use the chance to have 26 episodes to build up a plot, but rather they tried to use it too much. Honestly, 26 isn't a very big number to begin with. I get the feeling that the producers wanted to do a lot more with StrikerS (at least I think they did, since they introduced Lutecia, Zest, and Agito early on and Ginga getting brainwashed), but in the end they didn't really have the time or the episode number to make it all come together.

That was a problem with StrikerS; you got a feeling that the plot was supposed to be bigger than it actually turned out to be.

Someone bring a bottle of Champagne, this member couldn't say it better :D :D :D

En el hilo de relaciones ya se ha discutido y rediscutido esto ^^U
Si es verdad que hay indicios por todos lados de su relación, no hay prueba concluyente de que sea real, ni tampoco hay nada que lo deniegue, por lo que cada quien es libre de pensar lo que sea. Considerando que el fandom de NanoFate es uno de los fandoms yuri más grande del mundo (si es que ya no es el más grande) no era de esperarse menos del estudio ^^

Take care and keep smiling :)

Eso dije, cada fan puede decidir tener su Yunoha, su NanoFate o la pareja que más prefiera dado que en el anime no se confirma nada :)

RadiantBeam

2008-10-12, 20:38

Someone bring a bottle of Champagne, this member couldn't say it better :D :D :D

Heh, thank you. :)

It was just a feeling I got while watching the show, honestly; like they meant to do more, but in the end they couldn't.

BPHaru

2008-10-12, 20:42

Eso dije, cada fan puede decidir tener su Yunoha, su NanoFate o la pareja que más prefiera dado que en el anime no se confirma nada :)

Pero no es como si el anime no guiará a la pareja de NanoFate tampoco, después de todo eso es lo que vende aunque aún no lo hayan confirmado de manera absoluta.
Dado el escenario de StrikerS emparejar a Nanoha y Fate con otros personajes puede resultar complicado después de visto lo visto, pero los fans son libres de hacer lo que quieran y modificar el universo a su antojo si así lo desean para incluir hombres en la relación o lo que quieran ^^

Take care and keep smiling :)

Comartemis

2008-10-12, 21:53

Alright, let's move the NanoFate conversation into the Relationships thread before this goes any farther.

9taileddemon

2008-10-13, 00:50

Wow. This was fascinating to read. I have not seen a battle like this for awhile. (I arived at animesuki after all of the huge wars had finished.) Its like watching a train wreck, horrible and yet you can't look away. At least you guys used logic unlike a lot of other battles.

I think there could have been less NanoFateVivio moments as well and I would have preferred more FateErioCaro moments.

However, I think that if you want more FateErioCaro there were a lot of other things that could have been removed that people would have cared less about their removal. Like maybe one of the training episodes or the whole 3 brain council stuff that nobody cares about.

Stuff like that.

Since the whole Fate-mama thing ended up getting axed by 7arcs in soundstages to more Fate-sister, it probably could have been toned down.

However it was so adorable watching it. Hmm. I don't need anyone else. I can go around in circles and battle myself quite easily. Damn multiple personalites. :p

BPHaru

2008-10-13, 01:07

Since the whole Fate-mama thing ended up getting axed by 7arcs in soundstages to more Fate-sister, it probably could have been toned down.
I think this that's mostly a rumor than anything else, in my opinion it's an open scenario as always, yours interpretation of the track doesn't need to be that pessimist, that's only the worst case scenario, but you can interpret the track in other ways, even positive ones :). This was discussed at music thread IIRC, so you can check the backlog there if you want. If you ask me, nothing has changed at all ^^

And yes, the happy family moments were so adorable~

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

Keroko

2008-10-13, 03:02

I think the biggest problem in StrikerS wasn't so much that they didn't use the chance to have 26 episodes to build up a plot, but rather they tried to use it too much. Honestly, 26 isn't a very big number to begin with. I get the feeling that the producers wanted to do a lot more with StrikerS (at least I think they did, since they introduced Lutecia, Zest, and Agito early on and Ginga getting brainwashed), but in the end they didn't really have the time or the episode number to make it all come together.

That was a problem with StrikerS; you got a feeling that the plot was supposed to be bigger than it actually turned out to be.

Hmm, well I partially agree here. They did try to do too much, or rather they tried to do too much in a separate fashion. All the plotworks that should have been linked unraveled by the end to become their own separate plot points.

I do disagree that 26 isn't a big number. 26 is a big number, and more then enough to properly introduce all the characters and their plot points. If done in the right way. Several characters should have been cut or have their screentime reduced to face-fillers. Like I said, Vice's sub plot added nothing to the story and took up valuable screentime, which would have been far better used at developing Fate/Erio/Caro in the first half, and Jail and the numbers in the second half.

Nightengale

2008-10-13, 03:14

You guys sure know how to give one a headache for a return gift. :p

26 episodes is only a problem when you pace the series the way it is. Even in the Sound Stages, some of the filler scenes really drag out unnecessarily, even if they have the freedom of doing so since it's sound-only. To be fair, the pacing of StrikerS was not horrible, but it had no need to do the way it was done either. Repetitive foreshadowing, glossing tricks and structuring only works when you're dealing with a really large scale and a lot of intrigue, but StrikerS doesn't even scratch that in terms of plot and world-building. For one, did we even need the scene where they explained the history of how Jail got the Cradle and the prophecy discussions? The former barely shed anything to add to the depth of the conflict other than 'lol Belka' and the latter just piled 30 tons of bricks called 'horrible leadership and nepotism' on Hayate.

I refer to Toward the Terra for an example of a series that, with more than twice the scale of Nanoha in terms of epic, world-building and character development (( over 30 characters )), did everything it failed to do in merely 24 episodes. And it's not like it had horribly fast pacing either, but rather it understood how to prioritize story-boarding.

Judging StrikerS from a whole script (( from the anime material to the Sound Stages )), other than Jail/Brains, it's quite well-written. A lot of characters undergo interesting growth, and minor characters have elements of characterization to them that stands out, even if low in development. Keroko's points of NanoVivio-Fate-ErioCaro have their points left and right. Now, barring subjectives of what one prefers over another, there's a clear lean that horribly ruins both aspects of story-telling, one oversaturated and ruining the mood of the execution as a whole while the other undersaturated and demeaning the presence of both one who is well developed, even if disregarding the one who went through little development.

There's really no denying that much, unless you're blind, illiterate or never went through middle-school literature classes.

Kha

2008-10-13, 04:10

You guys sure know how to give one a headache for a return gift. :pTo an Outer Cadia no Khrack Meister like yourself, it's just small change I suppose. ;)

Vivio Testarossa

2008-10-13, 14:23

You hited the point, they had the chance, but they didn't used it

And to the people discuysing about NanoFate, in the 3 seasons, never, and I say never, is anything pointing at a Yuri relation between Nanoha and Fate, the fans are the ones who craeted that concept ;)

Sure, yuri isn't the "selling theme" of Nanoha, unlike Mariamite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria-sama_ga_Miteru), but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist as you say...

In season 1, Nanoha wants to save Fate no mater what (even when others would of abandoned Fate)

Nanoha goes on about how beautiful Fate's eyes and hair are...

They both blush in each other's presence...

Therefore, NanoFate exists!

Evangelion Xgouki

2008-10-13, 16:31

Sure, yuri isn't the "selling theme" of Nanoha, unlike Mariamite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria-sama_ga_Miteru), but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist as you say...

In season 1, Nanoha wants to save Fate no mater what (even when others would of abandoned Fate)

That's not 100% true. Nanoha's initial intention towards Fate was to discover why she was also out to gather the Jewel Seeds. After several skirmishes it changed to find out why Fate was so hostile and locked into that mindset rather than wanting to team up or at least talk (mind you this is a 9-year-old not an adult). It was only after Arf talked with her and the TSAB that she discovered the chains that bound the girl to Precia and wanted to free her from them.

Nanoha goes on about how beautiful Fate's eyes and hair are...

Actually, Nanoha refers to the girl with 'sad eyes' and for someone who was raised in Japan natural blond hair is an unusual sight. For girls to remark that another is 'beautiful' or 'cute' or 'pretty' is not unusual in casual conversation regardless of age.

They both blush in each other's presence...

Blushing, especially in anime, is not isolated to romantic feelings. The use of redness in the cheeks can be used for a variety of emotions/physical states like romance, tiredness, drunkenness, embarrassment, happiness, innocence, etc. For Fate, her interaction with other people outside of Precia and Arf is extremely limited, if not non-existent. To have such a sudden change like making a friend, especially after trying to kill them, would bring out a mix of feelings like embarrassment and happiness. For Nanoha, the blushing is possibility of showing that, regardless of all she's been through, she's still a child at her core. It also emphasizes her happiness of being able to save Fate and become friends rather than enemies with her in the end. Not to mention she cries, in which red cheeks is a common aspect.

Therefore, NanoFate exists!

The engineer has reviewed your proposal and handed it back scribbled with red corrections :p

BPHaru

2008-10-13, 16:36

The engineer has reviewed your proposal and handed it back scribbled with red corrections :p
But you can also interpret the scenes as Vivio said, so both are right ^^

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

Tempest Dynasty

2008-10-13, 17:54

At nine years old, romance is hardly a topic a child that would truly understand beyond puppy love, crushes, and cooties. While they understand what love is, they cannot differentiate between platonic, romantic, familial, and other kinds of love. Perhaps in the future, when they are older and wiser, but at this point in life friendship would be the biggest and most likely condition I see these kids turning to.

Unless, of course, the two are exceedingly mature for their age, behaving at the mid-to-late teen developmental stage. This however, seems exceedingly unlikely and frankly, just plain silly to make Nanoha and Fate of all people far more advanced than their contemporaries. They may be magically skilled and intelligent, but that does not make them superior to other humans in ever aspect. In all the children I've worked with, I've met plenty of very intelligent kids, but very few emotionally advanced ones. And no, I'm not going to accept "but it's an anime!" as a counterargument.

From my POV, I can't accept evidence of their emotional states as hints of a budding love. Also, I agree with all of Eva's points.

BPHaru

2008-10-13, 18:39

Yeah, it's not very realistic, but this is anime, and that happens often there and in manga, or at least more often than IRL.

Have you already seen Hito Ni Yasashiku (http://www.nanofate.net/?p=37) and Sekai wa kagayaku (http://www.nanofate.net/?p=44)? Those are pretty good doujins if you ask me ^^

Cuídate y sigue sonriendo :)

9taileddemon

2008-10-13, 19:04

26 episodes is only a problem when you pace the series the way it is. Even in the Sound Stages, some of the filler scenes really drag out unnecessarily, even if they have the freedom of doing so since it's sound-only. To be fair, the pacing of StrikerS was not horrible, but it had no need to do the way it was done either. Repetitive foreshadowing, glossing tricks and structuring only works when you're dealing with a really large scale and a lot of intrigue, but StrikerS doesn't even scratch that in terms of plot and world-building. For one, did we even need the scene where they explained the history of how Jail got the Cradle and the prophecy discussions? The former barely shed anything to add to the depth of the conflict other than 'lol Belka' and the latter just piled 30 tons of bricks called 'horrible leadership and nepotism' on Hayate.

I personally don't think the whole prophecy thing was that bad. Frankly, the way they set up the series it was necessary. Without the prophecy behind them Riot Force 6 would have never been created. There would have been no real need for that division and they would not have had any idea that anything bad was going to happen. Without knowledge of the future nobody would ever have allowed Hayate to bring together her monster friends all in one division.

Heck. The only reason they ever realized that Jail was the villain was because he left a freaking calling card. For all the government knew, Jail was still perfectly loyal.

The brains I still hate and the whole finding the cradle really doesn't use that much screen time so I really don't care.

So much more they could have done though with proper organization.

Evil Rick

2008-10-13, 20:06

Sure, yuri isn't the "selling theme" of Nanoha, unlike Mariamite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria-sama_ga_Miteru), but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist as you say...

In season 1, Nanoha wants to save Fate no mater what (even when others would of abandoned Fate)

Nanoha goes on about how beautiful Fate's eyes and hair are...

They both blush in each other's presence...

Therefore, NanoFate exists!

So, the fact of Having Sam tring to protect Frodo at all cost, means that there is Yaoi in The Lord of the Rings? XP

I personally don't think the whole prophecy thing was that bad. Frankly, the way they set up the series it was necessary. Without the prophecy behind them Riot Force 6 would have never been created. There would have been no real need for that division and they would not have had any idea that anything bad was going to happen. Without knowledge of the future nobody would ever have allowed Hayate to bring together her monster friends all in one division.

Heck. The only reason they ever realized that Jail was the villain was because he left a freaking calling card. For all the government knew, Jail was still perfectly loyal.

The brains I still hate and the whole finding the cradle really doesn't use that much screen time so I really don't care.

So much more they could have done though with proper organization.

I agree with the point of the Brains, I was forced to check in Wikipedia before seing StrikerS to understood what the Hell the brains were, and even now I'm a bit confused

They were the "heads" of the TSAB? Because I didn't sence any point of Duo (another wasted character) killing them

BPHaru

2008-10-13, 20:14

So, the fact of Having Sam tring to protect Frodo at all cost, means that there is Yaoi in The Lord of the Rings? XP

You picked a bad example ^^U
Go to Google Images, search for "frodo sam", look at the first page... and run.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

Evil Rick

2008-10-13, 20:18

You picked a bad example ^^U
Go to Google Images, search for "frodo sam", look at the first page... and run.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

I mean that if any points to a yaoi relation on the book only by having Sam protecting Frodo, no fanarts :eyebrow:

BPHaru

2008-10-13, 20:31

I mean that if any points to a yaoi relation on the book only by having Sam protecting Frodo, no fanarts :eyebrow:
Personally I don't see any intentionality of the author to imply that, but since it seems like there is a fanbase of them, probably they could point to you every little detail that can make you think otherwise, maybe without so much effort considering that is easy to turn that friendship and dedication for a goal into something else in my opinion. Therefore if such ambiguity were to exist, then I think they are free to call it yaoi or whatever they want, but personally I don't see it.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo :)

Kha

2008-10-13, 23:49

Nanohaverse pairings of any kind have an adjective list that reads:

Tenuous;
Associated, not Causal;
Ergo vis, non quid es;
Joining dots on a really faded Sunday Times paper;

...and goes on. And yet research suggests that shipfits exhibit a significant increase the burden of morbidities in the otaku population. So go through all that, and only kill yourself?

Do your heart a favor. Stop shipping.

*Authorized by the Cadian Health Department, Asuki*

Keroko

2008-10-14, 02:49

I personally don't think the whole prophecy thing was that bad. Frankly, the way they set up the series it was necessary. Without the prophecy behind them Riot Force 6 would have never been created. There would have been no real need for that division and they would not have had any idea that anything bad was going to happen. Without knowledge of the future nobody would ever have allowed Hayate to bring together her monster friends all in one division.

The prophecy was, however, badly managed. All it really served to do was give RF6 a reason to exist and let us know that the TSAB knew they were going to get attacked.

The former wasn't really needed, prior to the prophecy we already had a reason for RF6's existence: Hayate wanted a unit designed specifically to stop Lost Logia and prevent situations like the Jewel Seed and Yami no Sho from occurring.

The later they could have done without, and would have improved the story. If the TSAB didn't have a warning that the Bureau would be attacked, then the attack on the Headquarters would have been a complete surprise attack, making the Bureau as a whole look far less incompetent for having such a shoddy defense.

Heck. The only reason they ever realized that Jail was the villain was because he left a freaking calling card. For all the government knew, Jail was still perfectly loyal.

Not exactly, Jail was already a known dimensional criminal long before StrikerS.

Evil Rick

2008-10-14, 11:05

Not exactly, Jail was already a known dimensional criminal long before StrikerS.

In fact, I think he assisted Precia somehow, don't?

Keroko

2008-10-14, 11:18

They had a mutual relationship, Precia wanted to clone Alicia, Jail had the technology to clone her, but not to copy her memories. Precia discovered the technique for memory cloning, which created Fate. Jail then perfected Precia's discoveries himself to 'revive' Zest and create his back-up selves.

Nightengale

2008-10-14, 11:37

The former wasn't really needed, prior to the prophecy we already had a reason for RF6's existence: Hayate wanted a unit designed specifically to stop Lost Logia and prevent situations like the Jewel Seed and Yami no Sho from occurring.

It's obviously just a story-device for RF6 to disband after Jail is defeated. The moment they revealed RF6 had a different purpose other what she told Nanoha and Fate, it was obvious that episode 26 = RF6 disbands.

The later they could have done without, and would have improved the story. If the TSAB didn't have a warning that the Bureau would be attacked, then the attack on the Headquarters would have been a complete surprise attack, making the Bureau as a whole look far less incompetent for having such a shoddy defense.

It's not so much a warning, but Jail attacking the HQ was indeed unexpected by Regius because they were in-cahoots. If anything, it made Hayate and co. look FAR more incompetent because they were expecting the unknown long for a long time, even something that they were aware that they might have to be the first line of defense until the Navy is forced to intervene and had their preparations in accordance to the general rules that applied to the events they were guarding and yet they still failed, horribly.

They had a mutual relationship, Precia wanted to clone Alicia, Jail had the technology to clone her, but not to copy her memories. Precia discovered the technique for memory cloning, which created Fate. Jail then perfected Precia's discoveries himself to 'revive' Zest and create his back-up selves.

I don't think so. From what it's said, Precia was the one who took Jail's concepts and research papers on Project F-memory copying and adapted it to Alicia's cloning of Fate.

Comartemis

2008-10-14, 11:49

The former barely shed anything to add to the depth of the conflict other than 'lol Belka' and the latter just piled 30 tons of bricks called 'horrible leadership and nepotism' on Hayate.
I feel a pressing need to point out that the TSAB doesn't give two shits about nepotism or otherwise doesn't consider it to be overly detrimental. Even Regius, supposedly the most capable bureaucrat and most "realistic" military schmuck in the TSAB--on top of being obsessed with law and order--employs his own daughter as an aide.

Evil Rick

2008-10-14, 11:59

But to resume

Jail and Precia never worked together, right?

Keroko

2008-10-14, 13:08

It's obviously just a story-device for RF6 to disband after Jail is defeated. The moment they revealed RF6 had a different purpose other what she told Nanoha and Fate, it was obvious that episode 26 = RF6 disbands.

Could have been done so much better though. The prophecy was hardly needed for that.

It's not so much a warning, but Jail attacking the HQ was indeed unexpected by Regius because they were in-cahoots. If anything, it made Hayate and co. look FAR more incompetent because they were expecting the unknown long for a long time, even something that they were aware that they might have to be the first line of defense until the Navy is forced to intervene and had their preparations in accordance to the general rules that applied to the events they were guarding and yet they still failed, horribly.

Storyline wise, it makes sense in the greater picture, but at that moment it didn't make much sense considering we weren't aware of their cahoots. This could have been solved with a scene explaining just why they were so surprised by the attack, though that would mean revealing several more plot bunnies as well as taking up more unneeded screentime. Not having a warning solves both issue: Regius is still surprised because of cahoots, Hayate & Co. look less like idiots for being caught unaware.

I don't think so. From what it's said, Precia was the one who took Jail's concepts and research papers on Project F-memory copying and adapted it to Alicia's cloning of Fate.

Jail specifically notes that Precia perfected the technique, and that Fate was the first product of the memory-transfer clone technique though.

But to resume

Jail and Precia never worked together, right?

Actively? No. They merely used each others work.

9taileddemon

2008-10-14, 18:53

We may have been given the reason, Hayate always wanted to have her own division, but do you really think that anyone in the government really would have given a care about what she just happened to want? Of course not. While nepotism may have been allowed such as Regius' daughter, RF6 was a completely different thing.

RF6 was putting together a force that probably could have done tons of damage to the TSAB on their own if they had wanted. They needed a real reason to allow it to be created. And again, besides knowledge of the future, it wasn't going to happen.

As for the warning about the attack on HQ, it was used so that everyone would focus on HQ and forget that RF6 was being left almost completely unprotected. That would then lead to the whole scene with Caro summoning Voltaire and Vice's crappy flashback, and the injuring of Zafira and Shamal who would eventually show up to help save the day against Otto.

If you have any other suggestion besides knowledge of the future that would make the TSAB put together such a dangerous group I would love to hear them. I do agree that it was not done very well, but I just don't see another solution.

RadiantBeam

2008-10-16, 14:37

I agree with the point of the Brains, I was forced to check in Wikipedia before seing StrikerS to understood what the Hell the brains were, and even now I'm a bit confused

They were the "heads" of the TSAB? Because I didn't sence any point of Duo (another wasted character) killing them

The brains were the "heads" of the TSAB?

...

I never even figured that out. I just always thought they were there.

Evangelion Xgouki

2008-10-16, 14:40

The brains were the "heads" of the TSAB?

...

I never even figured that out. I just always thought they were there.

The brains-in-tubes were not 'officially' in charge of the TSAB. Rather they were a secret group who watched from the shadows and used their connections to manipulate certain events to fulfill their own ideals. Think of them like SEELE from Evangelion.

ZeroIchiNi

2008-10-17, 00:15

The brains-in-tubes were not 'officially' in charge of the TSAB. Rather they were a secret group who watched from the shadows and used their connections to manipulate certain events to fulfill their own ideals. Think of them like SEELE from Evangelion.

When they showed up I was beginning to think that the show would pull the "Let's make everyone think the same" evil plan.

9taileddemon

2008-10-17, 18:55

The brains-in-tubes were not 'officially' in charge of the TSAB. Rather they were a secret group who watched from the shadows and used their connections to manipulate certain events to fulfill their own ideals. Think of them like SEELE from Evangelion.

No I think they actually were the head of the TSAB. They were the High Council. All of top executives had to report to them. They may not have had 100% control but they still dictated almost everything that went on within their jurisdiction. I think they may also have been like the founders of the TSAB itself. So would't they have a lot of power?

Just what I inferred form the few useless scenes they were in.

Could have been done so much better though. And why brains? So it is less of a shock when Due kills them? It is more creepy seeing brains in tubes get killed then old people get killed. And again, why were they necessary?!!?!?! :frustrated:

Evangelion Xgouki

2008-10-17, 19:21

No I think they actually were the head of the TSAB. They were the High Council. All of top executives had to report to them. They may not have had 100% control but they still dictated almost everything that went on within their jurisdiction. I think they may also have been like the founders of the TSAB itself. So would't they have a lot of power?

The only one we see reporting to them is Regius since he is involved in the Scagletti conspiracy to import combat cyborgs into the TSAB. Of course this is done is the very ominous manner of darkened room with screens representing each of the High Council members with "Sound Only" on each. If they were a genuine ruling council to the TSAB, they wouldn't need for the secrecy nor such a sneaky means to accomplish their goals. Plus the only person who knew of their location was their assistance who maintained their machinery.

A council does govern the TSAB, which is the same one that gathered at Ground Force's HQ for the meeting right before the attack by Jail and his forces. That council consisted of the 3 legendary admirals and heads of each TSAB section.

Could have been done so much better though. And why brains? So it is less of a shock when Due kills them? It is more creepy seeing brains in tubes get killed then old people get killed. And again, why were they necessary?!!?!?! :frustrated:

The 'brains' as you refer to them were a means to develop the plot of bringing in combat cyborgs into the TSAB. Originally outlawed due to how they are 'produced,' Regius wanted to bring them into Ground Forces due to his beliefs that GF get shafted so to speak with all the Aces and powerful mages being deployed in other divisions. Thus they were the ones backing Regius and using him as their puppet of sorts to bring both of their goals to fruit. Not to mention they were over a century old which would explain the brain in jar look. The human body can only survive for so long and it was probably easier for them to stay alive with machines supporting their brains rather than their entire bodies. Plus it would have less of a trail to lead back to them with no need for food or other needs other than power and maintainable (which only their aid was able to do). Again I refer you to SEELE from Evangelion. Though they weren't brains but wrinkly old men who become a refreshing beverage. Yummy :p

Kha

2008-10-17, 22:41

Hell, early in the anime, the brains were using silhouette avatars of wrinkly old men waiting to be turned into a yummy beverage from the NASA space program. :D

9taileddemon

2008-10-19, 01:48

The only one we see reporting to them is Regius since he is involved in the Scagletti conspiracy to import combat cyborgs into the TSAB. Of course this is done is the very ominous manner of darkened room with screens representing each of the High Council members with "Sound Only" on each. If they were a genuine ruling council to the TSAB, they wouldn't need for the secrecy nor such a sneaky means to accomplish their goals. Plus the only person who knew of their location was their assistance who maintained their machinery.

A council does govern the TSAB, which is the same one that gathered at Ground Force's HQ for the meeting right before the attack by Jail and his forces. That council consisted of the 3 legendary admirals and heads of each TSAB section.

The 'brains' as you refer to them were a means to develop the plot of bringing in combat cyborgs into the TSAB. Originally outlawed due to how they are 'produced,' Regius wanted to bring them into Ground Forces due to his beliefs that GF get shafted so to speak with all the Aces and powerful mages being deployed in other divisions. Thus they were the ones backing Regius and using him as their puppet of sorts to bring both of their goals to fruit. Not to mention they were over a century old which would explain the brain in jar look. The human body can only survive for so long and it was probably easier for them to stay alive with machines supporting their brains rather than their entire bodies. Plus it would have less of a trail to lead back to them with no need for food or other needs other than power and maintainable (which only their aid was able to do). Again I refer you to SEELE from Evangelion. Though they weren't brains but wrinkly old men who become a refreshing beverage. Yummy :p

I disagree with the first point. I actually do think they are the head of the TSAB. The reason they have to be secretive with their meetings with Regius is because they are breaking their own laws.

The sound only screen also is easy to understand. Who really wants to be looking at brains if they don't have to. Also it is doubtful the High Council really wanted anybody to know that they were just brains.

For the secrecy part about the whole sound only thing and only the assistant knowing where they are, it kind of reminds me of Black Cat with the Chronos Elders. They were the head of the organization. Everyone knew they were the head of the organization. Only like two people knew where they were so that they could avoid being assassinated. Same thing with the TSAB High Council (First of all I doubt they would be called that if it was supposed to be a secret group.) Since they are the leaders and are only brains at this point, they are probably freaked out about being attacked while they are defenseless. So they make it so nobody knows their location. Didn't really work in the end but it was a good try.

I do know about the council that showed up for the big meeting, but I don't think there being a HIGH Council is to hard to imagine.

Also, if they really were a secret group that only manipulates Regius, then why would Jail even use the time to kill them? He planned on killing Regius himself anyways and that would leave them with no connections.

I already do understand what their purpose is. I understood after just watching the show. My only thing is that I think it wasted time and could have been done in some other way. Seven Arcs probably could have just shown seens of Regius talking to Jail and removed the whole High Council.
I think there was only one real reason they existed and that was to demonstrate again how Due can change her apperance and is good at espionage. However she dies like two episodes later so why should we really care.

Comartemis

2008-10-19, 11:43

I disagree with the first point. I actually do think they are the head of the TSAB. The reason they have to be secretive with their meetings with Regius is because they are breaking their own laws.
Well when you come up with conclusive evidence to support this claim and disprove the Brains/SEELE comparison, come back and let us know.

Evil Rick

2008-10-19, 16:18

I disagree with the first point. I actually do think they are the head of the TSAB. The reason they have to be secretive with their meetings with Regius is because they are breaking their own laws.

The sound only screen also is easy to understand. Who really wants to be looking at brains if they don't have to. Also it is doubtful the High Council really wanted anybody to know that they were just brains.

For the secrecy part about the whole sound only thing and only the assistant knowing where they are, it kind of reminds me of Black Cat with the Chronos Elders. They were the head of the organization. Everyone knew they were the head of the organization. Only like two people knew where they were so that they could avoid being assassinated. Same thing with the TSAB High Council (First of all I doubt they would be called that if it was supposed to be a secret group.) Since they are the leaders and are only brains at this point, they are probably freaked out about being attacked while they are defenseless. So they make it so nobody knows their location. Didn't really work in the end but it was a good try.

I do know about the council that showed up for the big meeting, but I don't think there being a HIGH Council is to hard to imagine.

Also, if they really were a secret group that only manipulates Regius, then why would Jail even use the time to kill them? He planned on killing Regius himself anyways and that would leave them with no connections.

I already do understand what their purpose is. I understood after just watching the show. My only thing is that I think it wasted time and could have been done in some other way. Seven Arcs probably could have just shown seens of Regius talking to Jail and removed the whole High Council.
I think there was only one real reason they existed and that was to demonstrate again how Due can change her apperance and is good at espionage. However she dies like two episodes later so why should we really care.

So, the brains truly are the heads of the TSAB

They wanted to create an army of artificial mages (like the Clone Wars) and they used a motherf$%&@" clone (Jail) to make the research

The brains remained in clandestinity to make sure noone suspect of their illegal contacts, Jail send Duo to take out the brains when the time has come so they coulkd do nothing to stop his.... hummm... Research? Reserach for what?!

Crap! StrikerS plot is more complicated that The Davinci-code! :frustrated:

Well when you come up with conclusive evidence to support this claim and disprove the Brains/SEELE comparison, come back and let us know.

We should do something about that agresive actitude of yours :eyebrow:

RadiantBeam

2008-10-19, 17:21

Crap! StrikerS plot is more complicated that The Davinci-code! :frustrated:

...

...

I have a headache... :eyespin:

To be honest I always expected Jail to run off with Fate and Erio at some point alongside Vivio; honestly, he expressed so much interest in them that I was surprised that nothing more was born from it than him getting his backside handed to him by Bardiche.

And hell, don't get me started on the whole "Ginga being brainwashed into Number 13" thing. That one had so much plot potential I could cry. Seriously, just go the route of "character is brainwashed and captured but regains sanity and plays along to figure out what's going on" and you could have expanded on the Numbers, Jail, even Lutecia.

Heck, in general, I feel as though Lutecia and Zest got the short end of the stick in this series. Agito, too. The three of them had so much potential and so much of their story to be told, but nooooo....

I still don't totally understand Zest, though. Was he dead and brought back to life, or was he just fatally injured and nursed back to health by Cinque? Because the anime was never clear on which he was. :twitch:

9taileddemon

2008-10-19, 23:12

Heck, in general, I feel as though Lutecia and Zest got the short end of the stick in this series. Agito, too. The three of them had so much potential and so much of their story to be told, but nooooo....

I still don't totally understand Zest, though. Was he dead and brought back to life, or was he just fatally injured and nursed back to health by Cinque? Because the anime was never clear on which he was. :twitch:

Sigh. I agree that Lutecia and Agito got the short end of the stick with their stories.

Lutecia had almost no development and all the stuff that could have been talked about regarding Signum/Agito was ignored.

I think that Zest actually got an okay amount of information. Well, compared to some of the other characters at least. :)

No. Zest did get killed by Cinque. Jail then used his cloning techniques and stuff to make the artificial mage Zest. Then he went and put Zests' memories into the Artificial mage.

However, when Jail did this he still had not perfected the method so Zest's body constanly deteriorated after his revival. Eventually he got to Regius, was about to get his questions answered, and the Due decieded to be a BIACH and killed Regius. But she got her just desserts and was then killed by Zest. Then Signum went and gave Zest a knights death.

Kha

2008-10-20, 06:23

Crap! StrikerS plot is more complicated that The Davinci-code! :frustrated:Agree with all points, except this one. Macross Frontier was simpler, and it actually had a twist, rather than something we saw coming in StrikerS. :p

Comartemis

2008-10-20, 07:48

We should do something about that agresive actitude of yours :eyebrow:
Like what, Rick? Be disapproving? Frown at me and use lots of emotes to express your displeasure? If you think you can silence the skeptic in me, feel free to "do some about my aggressive attitude" Rick. Until then, I'll continue to scoff at theories that go directly against what we are told in canon.

Evil Rick

2008-10-20, 10:38

Agree with all points, except this one. Macross Frontier was simpler, and it actually had a twist, rather than something we saw coming in StrikerS. :p

I never saw that anime :heh:

I'm just saing that 7arcs complicated themselves with the plot a lot, they could made the things much more simpler, reducing the number of New Characters, and focusing the story on a single plot since the begining, I mean, they had 26 chapters!

Like what, Rick? Be disapproving? Frown at me and use lots of emotes to express your displeasure? If you think you can silence the skeptic in me, feel free to "do some about my aggressive attitude" Rick. Until then, I'll continue to scoff at theories that go directly against what we are told in canon.

No Comartemis, unfortunely, my words will never change you

I'm just saing that you should be less rough when posting

Comartemis

2008-10-20, 11:01

Evil Rick

2008-10-20, 12:07

You have obviously never ever spoken to Wild Goose or TK1997 when they're in a bad mood, Rick. My comments are as mild as a spring rain compared to the pain they bring to the forums whenever they get a reason to start bitching about something.

Yes Comartemis, I know very well people like Wild Goose when they are in a "Moderator wanna be" mode, for people like them, is that decided to get away of the OC thread

I'm just saing that you sound really agressive whne demanding 9taileddemon to post probs to backup his arguments hwne he was just tring to help

Evangelion Xgouki

2008-10-20, 12:24

I disagree with the first point. I actually do think they are the head of the TSAB. The reason they have to be secretive with their meetings with Regius is because they are breaking their own laws.

Braking their own laws does not mean that had to go that far for secrecy. It has been known for military in our own world to green-light missions that are against their country's and their own laws. Rather than having all this cloak and dagger planning they have the simple "If you get caught we will deny everything" policy. Why do you think we have all these top-secret documents that the government doesn't release until decades later about secret missions?

The sound only screen also is easy to understand. Who really wants to be looking at brains if they don't have to. Also it is doubtful the High Council really wanted anybody to know that they were just brains.

If they were in fact the ruling body of a multi-dimensional military organization why would they have to hide their appearance? Their hiding would only cause more suspicion amongst their peers and other members of the TSAB.

For the secrecy part about the whole sound only thing and only the assistant knowing where they are, it kind of reminds me of Black Cat with the Chronos Elders. They were the head of the organization. Everyone knew they were the head of the organization. Only like two people knew where they were so that they could avoid being assassinated.

And was Chronos a legitimate group known far and wide? I quote Wiki: "Chronos is the secret organization that rules one third of the world through underground business in various areas." Bad comparison to try and support your points :p

Same thing with the TSAB High Council (First of all I doubt they would be called that if it was supposed to be a secret group.) Since they are the leaders and are only brains at this point, they are probably freaked out about being attacked while they are defenseless. So they make it so nobody knows their location. Didn't really work in the end but it was a good try.

The name does not matter. If we were to judge a group by its name then there'd be a ton of cultist and other fanatical groups that would be 'good' or 'legitimate.' Hiding wouldn't necessarily be a good thing if they were the heads of the TSAB. Should some disaster or major attack happen where they were in fact threatened, how would they get support at their location? Guards and other securities are put in place to protect important people and they would be no different.

I do know about the council that showed up for the big meeting, but I don't think there being a HIGH Council is to hard to imagine.

Then that would defeat the purpose of having a TSAB-wide meeting of all heads and leads if they were not present. Not to mention having a group of 3 people run something for over a century kinda defeats the democracy of the TSAB.

Also, if they really were a secret group that only manipulates Regius, then why would Jail even use the time to kill them? He planned on killing Regius himself anyways and that would leave them with no connections.

There was nothing stated (nor did I state) Regius was the only one. He was the only one we SAW. If they were in fact as old as they said they most likely had more than one contact within the TSAB through which they could attempt to manipulate the organization. Plus the High Council was pulling the strings behind Regius and had to know of Jail if they were confiding with Regius and how to handle the Combat Cyborgs. And they knew of Due when she killed them, meaning they knew of Jail and Jail knew of them.

I already do understand what their purpose is. I understood after just watching the show. My only thing is that I think it wasted time and could have been done in some other way. Seven Arcs probably could have just shown seens of Regius talking to Jail and removed the whole High Council.
I think there was only one real reason they existed and that was to demonstrate again how Due can change her apperance and is good at espionage. However she dies like two episodes later so why should we really care.

The purpose of the High COuncil was to add in the aspect of corruption in the TSAB. They just added a tech/sci-fi twist by having the corruption be around for decades by a small group who used technology to sustain themselves. Several points can be drawn like the corruption of power, what happens when people get a god-like mentality, and that nothing is safe from some corruption or manipulation.

Comartemis

2008-10-20, 13:12

Yes Comartemis, I know very well people like Wild Goose when they are in a "Moderator wanna be" mode, for people like them, is that decided to get away of the OC thread

I'm just saing that you sound really agressive whne demanding 9taileddemon to post probs to backup his arguments hwne he was just tring to help
Of course I sound aggressive. 9 is more or less saying "Canon (or at the very least, the most widely-accepted interpretation of it) is wrong, this is what I think is right" without offering up any reasons as to why he interprets this portion of the series differently.

I would ask the same question of someone who read the novel and decided it was canon and tried to tell me that TSAB forcibly recruits mages off of Non-Administrated Worlds. "Prove it according to the anime. Where do you see evidence of this and how do you respond to the prevailing opinion/interpretation?" Perhaps there was a bit more venom in my tone than was necessary, but I would still like to see 9 back up his claims regardless.

9taileddemon

2008-10-20, 18:27

Of course I sound aggressive. 9 is more or less saying "Canon (or at the very least, the most widely-accepted interpretation of it) is wrong, this is what I think is right" without offering up any reasons as to why he interprets this portion of the series differently.

I would ask the same question of someone who read the novel and decided it was canon and tried to tell me that TSAB forcibly recruits mages off of Non-Administrated Worlds. "Prove it according to the anime. Where do you see evidence of this and how do you respond to the prevailing opinion/interpretation?" Perhaps there was a bit more venom in my tone than was necessary, but I would still like to see 9 back up his claims regardless.

Um. I did give my views and interpertations in why I think that the High Council is not just some secret corrupt group that controls the TSAB from the shadows. I kind of wrote a mini essay up there.

@Evangelion Xgouki

You do make some good counter points and I am sure that if we wanted to we could argue about this over a couple of days and have a big long discussion.
However my brain has been burned out today from a large AP Biology and AP US History test so I really don't feel like doing that. :heh:

For now I think I will just use the "we each have our own opinion" excuse to drop out of this argument for now. It is doubtful that either of us are going to change our views anytime soon and I need to use most of my brain cells for a big project coming up.

Maybe this weekend I will go and restart this if you wish.

DARN YOU SCHOOLWORK. Taking my time away from having fun debates with people.:frustrated:

arkhangelsk

2008-10-20, 19:18

I would ask the same question of someone who read the novel and decided it was canon and tried to tell me that TSAB forcibly recruits mages off of Non-Administrated Worlds. "Prove it according to the anime. Where do you see evidence of this and how do you respond to the prevailing opinion/interpretation?" Perhaps there was a bit more venom in my tone than was necessary, but I would still like to see 9 back up his claims regardless.

Poking at me ... hmm?

The problem is, if it has canon status, then no other sources are necessary to prove its existence. If it is not canon, then it doesn't matter. Canon status is decided before you started interpreting (one of the reasons being so you can't throw out a source because it has tidbits you don't like).

Frankly, if someone wants to say the novel is non-canon because it contradicts the anime, a much better point of complaint is where are those "less than 5%" AAA mages!

Of course I sound aggressive. 9 is more or less saying "Canon (or at the very least, the most widely-accepted interpretation of it) is wrong, this is what I think is right"

Colors added by me. Red and Blue are completely different concepts, and barely belong in the same sentence.

Keroko

2008-10-21, 03:29

Poking at me ... hmm?

The problem is, if it has canon status, then no other sources are necessary to prove its existence. If it is not canon, then it doesn't matter. Canon status is decided before you started interpreting (one of the reasons being so you can't throw out a source because it has tidbits you don't like).

Frankly, if someone wants to say the novel is non-canon because it contradicts the anime, a much better point of complaint is where are those "less than 5%" AAA mages!

The difference between those two is that 'less then 5%' was never contradicted. We see tons of below AAA mages in the anime, but the amount of AAA and higher can be counted on your hands, which only supports this.

Conscription, however, was never suported by the anime, nor any of the other sources, and continously disproven by all the characters who are bing given a choice. Yes, you can say 'but those characters had high-ranking people guarding them!' but if anyone can apparenty ignore that rule by choice without any repircussions, does that rule exist at all?

Furthermore, the anime, manga and soundstages does everything to depict the TSAB as the friendly neighborhood watch rather then the big evil military that kidnaps kids for their army. Point in this case being the currently debated High Council, if the TSAB really doesn't want to bother looking nice, why do they have to hide their lower humanitarian research?

I have no problem accepting information from any of the three conanical sources, however the Novel has already shown to be directly contradicting all three, so everything it states should be taken with a grain of salt. If the information it states is not directly contradicted, then we can safely incorporate it. If what it states is directly contradicted, then the novel, which has already shown itself to be out of line, is the source that will be seen as non-canon.

arkhangelsk

2008-10-21, 05:21

The difference between those two is that 'less then 5%' was never contradicted. We see tons of below AAA mages in the anime, but the amount of AAA and higher can be counted on your hands, which only supports this.

Actually, from what is being shown in the anime, if they said that there were fewer than 5 AAA or better mages (not "percent") until Nanoha and Co joined in, it'll probably be a better fit to what we've actually seen. I mean, who did we actually see except for our heroines. We have Chrono (1), Zest was still alive back then (2), Lindy was probably (though not explicitly stated) at least that (so 3 maybe). That leaves one. That one didn't even show up for StrikerS as the capital was held hostage...!

Unless the TSAB mage population was horribly small, it sure as heck doesn't look like 5%. Yet no one ever even tries a tsukkomi down this route. It is always the impressment part. Funny, hmm?

Conscription, however, was never suported by the anime, nor any of the other sources, and continously disproven by all the characters who are bing given a choice. Yes, you can say 'but those characters had high-ranking people guarding them!' but if anyone can apparenty ignore that rule by choice without any repircussions, does that rule exist at all?

Rather than go into-depth, I'll point out that the voluntary nature says that the rule was never tested. Your argument is like saying that the Soviets don't have conscription by pointing to several close friends signing up for a Higher Command School (VKU). Or maybe the pro-government press as evidence of freedom of speech.

Also, if a rule is bent due to powerful people, it does not mean the rule does not exist. It means that the system is corrupt.

Furthermore, the anime, manga and soundstages does everything to depict the TSAB as the friendly neighborhood watch rather then the big evil military that kidnaps kids for their army. Point in this case being the currently debated High Council, if the TSAB really doesn't want to bother looking nice, why do they have to hide their lower humanitarian research?

If I go along with this intent argument, consider this. The little blurb we're fighting over right now is right in the novel by the author. Thus, it is very clearly part of the author's intent of what goes into the TSAB. There are several possible reasons for this, including:
1) The author did not intend for the TSAB to be as white as you think it is.
2) The author did not believe that this impressment stuff blackens the TSAB (and certainly, there are ways to calculate this as a net positive).

Which by the way shows one of the greatest problems with "premise / intent" rather than observational analysis. What almost always happens is that the debater's own premises and intents are projected onto the author's. You assume that the author intended to show the TSAB as goody-goody, when in fact the author's definition of goody may be a bit different from your own, never mind whether he really intended to show them as goody-goody.

I have no problem accepting information from any of the three conanical sources, however the Novel has already shown to be directly contradicting all three, so everything it states should be taken with a grain of salt. If the information it states is not directly contradicted, then we can safely incorporate it. If what it states is directly contradicted, then the novel, which has already shown itself to be out of line, is the source that will be seen as non-canon.

Quite frankly, in comparison to the 5% stuff (which can barely hold when they weren't trying to save their capital...) there are hardly any problems.

Here's the question. You've apparently agreed that we should at least incorporate as much of the novel data as we can. If some character said this in the anime, will you reject it on the account it is "directly contradicted", or will you work with it?

If you will work with it, that means it is not "directly contradicted" in your book, in which case you have to consider your real reasons for considering it a "direct contradiction". But if it is not a direct contradiction, then you have to incorporate it and work with it.

RadiantBeam

2008-10-21, 05:33

No. Zest did get killed by Cinque. Jail then used his cloning techniques and stuff to make the artificial mage Zest. Then he went and put Zests' memories into the Artificial mage.

However, when Jail did this he still had not perfected the method so Zest's body constanly deteriorated after his revival. Eventually he got to Regius, was about to get his questions answered, and the Due decieded to be a BIACH and killed Regius. But she got her just desserts and was then killed by Zest. Then Signum went and gave Zest a knights death.

...

Why did I never figure that out? D:

Thanks for clearing that up.

Comartemis

2008-10-21, 08:39

Um. I did give my views and interpertations in why I think that the High Council is not just some secret corrupt group that controls the TSAB from the shadows. I kind of wrote a mini essay up there.
You did. But you didn't say why. Why should we accept this view over the one we have already accepted as canon? Kero's right, the Bureau as a whole is supposed to be made up of "the good guys" in this series. Even Regius, much as I loathe the guy, ultimately had the best interests of the people he was supposed to be protecting in mind when he started his career; it's just that he hit something of a slippery slope and crossed over into moral ambiguity when he teamed up with Jail, and in an idealistic series like Nanoha that's pretty much tantamount to becoming a villain.

So if the Bureau is as good as canon says it is, why should we accept the notion that the legitimate higher-ups are anything except pure and noble defenders of the innocent? That's what you haven't said yet.

Poking at me ... hmm?
Not you specifically, but anyone who holds the novel to be canon. Since I can't read Japanese or get my hands on a translated copy I wouldn't be able to use it as a source even if I wanted to tarnish the bureau's image for some bizarre reason, and since I don't I have no reason to bother in the first place.

arkhangelsk

2008-10-21, 09:05

Braking their own laws does not mean that had to go that far for secrecy. It has been known for military in our own world to green-light missions that are against their country's and their own laws. Rather than having all this cloak and dagger planning they have the simple "If you get caught we will deny everything" policy. Why do you think we have all these top-secret documents that the government doesn't release until decades later about secret missions?

Actually, when you break your own laws, you do do your best to maintain secrecy, so you can plausibly "deny everything". It'll look really bad for you when you say "We really know nothing about this" and then someone shows a recording of your formal order.

If they were in fact the ruling body of a multi-dimensional military organization why would they have to hide their appearance? Their hiding would only cause more suspicion amongst their peers and other members of the TSAB.

Image. They are the heroes of the past. If it is not possible to maintain the proper image visually, then what's left is to rely on voice and uncertainty.

Besides, we only really saw them talking to Regius, so the chance exists they'll do something else with other audiences.

The name does not matter. If we were to judge a group by its name then there'd be a ton of cultist and other fanatical groups that would be 'good' or 'legitimate.'

True, but a name within an organization does imply its place. For example, before you decide that "High Command" means a platoon command post, you better have some darn good reasons, and all else being even, it'll lose out to a solution that uses that name correctly.

One can also consider that both the High Council themselves, and the Three Admirals, agree that the group's role was "見守る". The kanji literally means "watching and protecting", and it is a term that implies supervision.

Generally, it means that you are letting someone subordinate to you do something, and if everything goes well you won't interfere, but you are seeing how they are doing. The "protect" part is that you are ready to intervene if you feel necessary. So the diction itself implies the Council has power, even though they don't interfere day-to-day. That the Three Admirals agree that was their role suggests that they have legal power to intervene.

Then that would defeat the purpose of having a TSAB-wide meeting of all heads and leads if they were not present. Not to mention having a group of 3 people run something for over a century kinda defeats the democracy of the TSAB.

That depends on their governmental structure.

By the way, you are going to have to help me here. Where did they explicitly say that it is a democracy, in the Western sense of the word. We already know that they are a little different from contemporary Western ideas of ideal government, such as their mingling of enforcement and judiciary into one organization, a dangerous concentration by Western theory

You did. But you didn't say why. Why should we accept this view over the one we have already accepted as canon?

Here's what I saw. He expressed his opinion. He did not necessarily say that you were wrong. Then Xgouki blasted him.

Kero's right, the Bureau as a whole is supposed to be made up of "the good guys" in this series.

Aah, the problems with "premise" people.

Step 1: Assume the TSAB is good.
Step 2: Assume that the TSAB's idea of good is equivalent to your own.
Step 3: Aggressively attack anybody who dares review the evidence to see if they actually match up to your personal ideas of "good".

I can understand the lazy desire to associate "protagonist's organization" with "good". I do that for 99% of shows myself. However, if one goes down this path, IMO one should be more open to someone who thinks different.

Even Regius, much as I loathe the guy, ultimately had the best interests of the people he was supposed to be protecting in mind when he started his career; it's just that he hit something of a slippery slope and crossed over into moral ambiguity when he teamed up with Jail, and in an idealistic series like Nanoha that's pretty much tantamount to becoming a villain.

So if the Bureau is as good as canon says it is, why should we accept the notion that the legitimate higher-ups are anything except pure and noble defenders of the innocent? That's what you haven't said yet.

Umm, what's so hard with accepting that they've turned utilitarian, like Regius? IMHO, It is a transition that most have to make to some degree before they can take the really big jobs, because deontological ethics begins to fail at the highest levels in times of crisis.

And why do you loathe Regius so much?

Not you specifically, but anyone who holds the novel to be canon. Since I can't read Japanese or get my hands on a translated copy I wouldn't be able to use it as a source even if I wanted to tarnish the bureau's image for some bizarre reason, and since I don't I have no reason to bother in the first place.

Most people who hold the novel to be canon probably already swallowed it down without even thinking about it. It didn't even register.

CuXe

2008-10-23, 21:00

K so gotta say, this was a good anime but as always it falls short as far as the plot. There were many openings for good stuff such as the Signum/Agito moments but they were left undeveloped :(

Also.... I thought they were going to elaborate more as far as what happened to all the impregnated androids who are carrying the seed of this crazy scientist .... are they going to have evil babies now? I thought that part was left unchecked.....

The good parts for me were:

-- The Nanoha/Fate and Vivio mothers/daughter relationship ... very cute actually since Nanoha really did assume the roll of a mother .... (she was also kinda like everyones mother in the anime...)

-- The first mock fight when Nanoha struck down this other chick in her team (very nice!) ... gave Nanoha an edgier profile except for the fact that the shots she fired were hollow. Nice nonetheless.

-- Signum + Agito unison ... while I strongly feel the writers could have elaborated and developed more of a relationship between these two... the whole thing felt too rushed. Agito was very cute tho :) ... also liked the last part when Agito plays around with Zwei :)

-- Fate's final form (very hawt!.. Fato mama! ...lol)

-- The part when Ginga was taken away from Subaru ....not much the rescue... but the part when Ginga was captured... I loved Subaru's reaction, she really went Berserk that time :)

-- The battle androids were very hawt :) .... and number 4 was crazy as hell or ... at least as crazy as Jail..

I think that the whole Ginga/Subaru fight and drama was just an added goody... it didn't do much for me. Also, I don't know if the transformations which took ~20 sec each were intended as some sort of fan service but must say ... if that was the idea... it didn't meet the expectations and initial intentions because must girls in Nanoha were drawn to be cute fighters instead of hawt battle babes .... feel free to elaborate on this one .. :)