Shakugan no Shana Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread

[Kinny Riddle]

As the name suggests, this thread is used by users to provide information as well as post questions and answers concerning the terminology and metaphysics seen in the Shana-verse, as envisioned by series author Takahashi Yashiro.

This is more or less an "ad-hoc encyclopedia", as I have tonnes of stuff I can write about but not sure where to start.

I'll start with a few today then, my preference is to use an English equivalent name wherever possible, since most of the terms are just adjectives:

Crimson World (Guze)
A world that is adjacent to our own. Residing there are Crimson Denizens (Guze no Tomogara) and the more powerful Crimson Lords (Guze no Ou). The name "Crimson" is just a metaphor, coined by a certain Flame Haze ages ago, and does not necessarily mean the world is crimson in colour. Their world is not as "physical" as we would normally perceive ours to be. Overall, a very abstract world. For various reasons, Crimson Denizens and Lords decide to physically manifest themselves in our world. (See entry below)

Crimson Denizen and Crimson Lord
There are various reasons Crimson Denizens and their more powerful counterparts Crimson Lords physically manifest themselves. Some to fulfill all sorts of desire that they are not able to achieve in the Crimson World. Mostly it has something to do with love, or a twisted form of it, like Friagne and the Aizen siblings. Though there are others, like Bal Masque, whose purposes are entirely unknown.

In order to physically manifest themselves, they require Powers of Existence (Sonzai no Chikara) found in this world. Think of it like the MPs (Magic Points) of the Crimson World. It is the power that keeps this world in existence.

There are two ways to acquire PoE (I'll be using this abbreviation from now on): one is to "devour" a human being's PoE, causing his/her existence to be "forgotten" after becoming a Torch; another is to "borrow" the existence of a human being, i.e. living in "symbiosis" with that human, these humans are known as Flame Hazes.

The difference between the former and the latter is that the former acquires PoE indiscriminately just to fulfill their desires. If too many PoE have been extracted, then it could upset the balance between our world and the Crimson World. Some of the more concerned Crimson Lords decide to stop their own kind from going too far, hence they form contracts with Flame Hazes.

There are also certain Denizens/Lords who are neither and do not affect the overall balance of the two worlds. One example is Rami, the Bone Collector (AKA The Spiral Harmonica). He resides inside a Torch, hence he does not take away anybody's PoE, and he only extracts from other Torches, which does anybody no harm (from the "Balance World" PoV anyway).


That's it for now. Feel free to fire any questions you may have.

[serenade_beta]

Rami, the Bone Collector

Perhaps it would be best to change "bone" to "corpse"

As his title has "屍" (shikabane), not "骨" (hone).

[Kinny Riddle]

Perhaps it would be best to change "bone" to "corpse"

As his title has "屍" (shikabane), not "骨" (hone).
Yes, I was aware of that, but Bone Collector sounds better than Corpse Collector, but I'll make a note of it.

[Anh_Minh]

Is there a reason why the nice Lords don't all inhabit Torches instead of going to the trouble of contracting a Flame Haze?

[Klashikari]

Is there a reason why the nice Lords don't all inhabit Torches instead of going to the trouble of contracting a Flame Haze?

That is because the torches don't have a "capacity" large enough for abilities.
Rami is different because he doesn't tap much of PoE and actually feeds himself slowly.

Meanwhile, "good" Guze-O who are willing to fight require a proper host, not only a capable fighter, but also a refined container.

A simple torch would be crushed by any usual Guze-O dormant PoE, but would hardly be able to tap enough PoE for the Guze-O and they would die => disappear. (I don't even know if actually anything except flame haze wouldn't be squeeshed during the ceremony of the contract)
Even though Flame Haze are more similar to a Torch than a human, they are quite different in "spec"

[Kinny Riddle]

Power of Existence
The basic power that keeps everything in our world "in existence". Every person is born with such PoE. Some people have larger "existences" than others, in that they have more "contacts", "friends", or are just "popular".

In a nutshell: For an average popular person, his "existence" grows as he meets more people, and is at its climax during the person's prime. Once he ages (i.e. goes into retirement), his "existence" would gradually shrink as he gets out of touch with the people he normally comes into contact with, though it never disappears, even after death.

This changes when his PoE is forcibly taken by a Crimson Denizen/Lord. In which case, he is devoured and is deemed to have "died". However, unlike death, he will not be mourned, because since his "existence" is taken away, no one will know he even existed.

However, while humans normally won't even detect whether one of their own is devoured by Denizens. Overconsumption of PoE would mean people would begin to question the very fabric of their world as more of more people "disappear", this would lead to great distortion, and eventually a collapse in the balance.

Flame Haze usually seek out Denizens by searching for these "distortions". Once a battle is over, these "distortions" are then adjusted and repaired, with the help of a local inhabitant, by a certain group of veteran Flame Haze known as Tuners.

In order to hide their presence, Denizens invent the idea of using Torches to replace the devoured victims. This buys them time to escape before the Flame Haze arrives. Though sometime Flame Haze also create Torches themselves in order to utilize their PoE to repair areas damaged after battles in a Fuuzetsu (Sealed Barrier).

PoE is also the basis for both Denizens and Flame Haze for their Unrestricted Spells (Jizaihou).


That's all I can remember about PoE for now. Any feedback or questions are most welcomed.

[Klashikari]

Just to add some "explanations" of the concept, just in case:

As shown by Kinny's explanations, Power of Existence is completely different from "life span".
Even though one should live , let's say, roughly 80 years (think "Death note" life span, which is the common concept of most people), this person disappear if their PoE runs out (which happens only when it is forcefully cut short by a Denizen).
PoE is rather another "variable" which is the representation of the "existence", not "life" of that person (well, the word is "self explanatory")

As result, when a Denizen eats the PoE of someone, the said person doesn't have a "normal" existence, as the existence is conflicting with the prior interactions with other humans. Existence which shouldn't be shrunk in the first place are simply irregular in the world, and therefore, instead of being "harder" to realize (conflicting again with previous connections of the said person's existence), the existence itself cannot "exist" just like prior the intervention of a Denizen, and thus, it is steadely vanishing, until it is turned into a Torch.

Torch
As denizen usually don't create torches since they are only interested in their wishes (and so the PoE), the balance of worlds is disrupted. Even though devoured existences are forgotten, living humans still can sense inconsistencies due the abrupt disappearance of "existences".
Flame Hazes use a temporary method to lessen the impact of this, by creating Torches from the remnants of Existence.

A Torch is somewhat an "avatar" of the deceased human, as its existence is just a placeholder to prevent any abrupt disappearance. The torch "lifespan" depends on the remnants of the eaten PoE. This of course can vary from some days to weeks or even years.

Since eaten existences cannot stay in the world in such state, the Flame Hazes just recreate the persons under Torches, who will only live on with a degrading PoE.
Once an existence is turned into a Torch, it is no longer considered as a "human existence", and the said human is "officially" dead, as the Torch will never be able to turn back to a true living existence.

Flame Hazes aren't able to "repair" eaten PoE because PoE can only be "fixed" with PoE, and so, "helping" a torch would mean to tap the PoE from someone else. Therefore, they are unique and cannot be "replinished" until a specific power is designed for such purpose. (There is currently only one thing which has the power to do so, the Hougu named "Reiji Maigo")

Thus, Torches are replacing the presence of eaten people, but as their existence is fading, the impact of this disappearance is lessened since the existence of the torch is gradually degrading, leaving the humans with a near-perfect impression the person never existed from the beginning.

---

I'm not exactly sure if Denizens do care about the balance, but i really doubt it, so the use of Torch for them is quite limited, except some stuns like Friagne and Rami used.
Feel free to correct me etc :heh:

[Kinny Riddle]

Here is my definition of a Torch.

Torch

According to the novels, it was the Denizens who first came up with the idea of creating Torches to buy themselves time to escape from Flame Haze, who sniff their trail by following the "distortions" that they leave behind. Over time, Flame Haze also install Torches in the case where they've already killed a Denizen before he could make a Torch, or after a "massacre" has occurred and they want to reduce the damage caused to the world as much as possible.

Anyway, once a person is "devoured" of his PoE, a small fragment of that PoE is used to form a "temporary replacement". However, this is but a mere shadow of the original, who for all intents and purposes, should be considered "dead".

This replacement looks like the original, talks like the original, thinks like the original, and even has the memories and personality of the original.

In the early stages, a torch would still behave like any other human being. However, this is where their true function really begins. Slowly, as his flame slowly burns away, people around would stop paying attention to the Torch, and slowly the Torch behaves as though he's a zombie. When his flame finally runs out, he "extinguishes" without anybody noticing.

Torches are not meant to last forever, hence they are not designed with "aging" in mind. Think of it like creating a robot clone for yourself that doesn't age but his batteries will expire in a few months. Thanks to the Hougu inside him, the Mistes Saki Yuji is the sole freak exception in that he is able to maintain his flame perpetually, hence making him technically immortal.

(Separate entries for Mistes and Hougu later)

An interesting question arises concerning Torches: When a person disappear, what happens to his family?

Let's consider the following example:

Unlike time travel, where you go back in time and kill your grandfather, you end up killing your existence.

If a Denizen ends up devouring your grandfather, you will not disappear, because nothing will change the fact that you're "born". Rather, your perception of who your grandfather was will change.

You will wonder "I wonder who my grandfather was?" Your grandmother would struggle to remember how on earth did she have children, etc. But they would then come up with a "rational explanation" to explain away this "unnatural distortion" to their perception of the world.

The same applies to a Torch's physical possession. Take the hapless Hirai Yukari for example, after she disappeared (along with her just as unlucky parents), her apartment does not become vacant overnight. Rather, the stuff inside would continue to remain there, collecting dust. Neighbours would wonder "Did someone ever live here? No one's ever gone in and out for ages." (Not counting the fact that until recently, Shana never bothered staying there. )

[Tokkan]

*ahem*

Mistes has no meaning in any language.
Mystes refers to an initiate in a mystery cult.

Which one do you prefer?

[Devard]

Take the hapless Hirai Yukari for example, after she disappeared (along with her just as unlucky parents), her apartment does not become vacant overnight. Rather, the stuff inside would continue to remain there, collecting dust. Neighbours would wonder "Did someone ever live here? No one's ever gone in and out for ages." (Not counting the fact that until recently, Shana never bothered staying there. )
Where was it mentioned that Yukari's parents had disappeared and that Shana is actually living in her house?

*ahem*

Mistes has no meaning in any language.
Mystes refers to an initiate in a mystery cult.

Which one do you prefer?
I know Wikipedia uses the latter and I believe believe that someone noted that that was the spelling on Geneon's R1 DVDs.

[Teiran]

Where was it mentioned that Yukari's parents had disappeared and that Shana is actually living in her house?

I just ran across this passage in the second (translated) novel:
Crimson Denizens had consumed three members of Yukari Hirai's family, and all of them had become Torches. Shana had taken advantage of this situation and assumed Yukari's identity. But recently, the flame of Yukari's parents had flickered out. Their Power of Existence was gone, and they disappeared.

As a result, Shana was left on her own. This was one of the reasons why Yuji's mother took care of her.

Shana thought of the Hirai house, which was supposedly her home, only as a place to store things or spend the night. Most of her time was spent at the Sakais'.I know Wikipedia uses the latter and I believe believe that someone noted that that was the spelling on Geneon's R1 DVDs.

FWIW--and it's not much, I know--the Viz novel translations use "Mistes."

[Devard]

I just ran across this passage in the second (translated) novel:
Crimson Denizens had consumed three members of Yukari Hirai's family, and all of them had become Torches. Shana had taken advantage of this situation and assumed Yukari's identity. But recently, the flame of Yukari's parents had flickered out. Their Power of Existence was gone, and they disappeared.

As a result, Shana was left on her own. This was one of the reasons why Yuji's mother took care of her.

Shana thought of the Hirai house, which was supposedly her home, only as a place to store things or spend the night. Most of her time was spent at the Sakais'.
Thanks.

FWIW--and it's not much, I know--the Viz novel translations use "Mistes."
ANN's review here (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/shakugan-no-shana/dvd-6) seems to use Mystes, so I'm assuming that's what the subtitles say. I don't own the R1 DVDs, so I can't check myself. Does anyone have those?

[Kinny Riddle]

Note that most of the info I wrote are based on novels, where everything else (anime, manga, game) is based from.

Flame Haze
Concerned with the overconsumption of PoE, some Crimson Lords decide to take it upon themselves to stop their own kind from disrupting the balance between the Crimson World and our world.

Physically manifesting themselves is impossible, however, as this means they have to consume other people's PoE as well, which totally defeats their purpose of "preserving the balance". So they decide to "borrow" the existence of certain humans, forming contracts with them, and lending them their power.

Which humans are qualified to become Flame Hazes? Basically, since these are powerful Crimson Lords, so they require "vessels" large enough to contain their existence. Usually, people with such "large existences" tend to be very influential people in society, like nobles and royalty. Example: Khamshin was a prince of a long forgotten kingdom, while Wilhelmina Carmel was a princess in medieval Europe. This may also imply that Shana, who "is large enough to contain [Alastor] with room to spare" may be of noble heritage or descended from someone influential, despite her being "an orphan", but we'll see.

After forming a contract, a Flame Haze would receive tremendous power from the Crimson Lord that he has lent his existence to. He would stop aging physically as well, becoming immortal in their eternal pursuit of Crimson Denizens.

The price of becoming a Flame Haze is that he would lose everything that he has and the world that he once lives in. His existence would be "forgotten", no one would know of his existence, besides other Flame Hazes and Denizens. Thus, as Shana puts it "Flame Hazes are no different from Torches in a way".

Most Flame Hazes tend to be avengers - those that bore a personal grudge towards Crimson Denizens as they have lost their loved ones to the Denizens. It is based on this hatred that some Crimson Lords choose their vessels as it drives the fire in their pursuit of Denizens.

The downside is that the Flame Haze may end up being subjective and too emotional. Margery Daw is a prime example of a Flame Haze driven to extremes by her hatred of Crimson Denizens.

The Crimson Lord Alastor, the Flame of Heaven, wishes to avoid such a situation, hence he chooses to raise a girl from childbirth and instill in her the knowledge of this world without any hatred attached, to allow her to understand the true meaning of "Maintaining the Balance of the Worlds".

Crimson Lords communicate with their Flame Haze via a Device (Jinki) (I forgot what it's actually called, can someone help?) It comes in any shape the Flame Haze desires. (Shana chooses a pendant for Alastor, Margery a book for Marchosias, Wilhelmina a ribbon for Tiamat, and Khamshin a hand ornament for Behemoth) These Devices act as the eyes and ears of the Flame Haze in our physical world, and can be summoned (teleport) any time even when its not physically by the Flame Haze's side.


That's all for Flame Haze for now.

[Anh_Minh]

But how could Baby Shana acquire so much PoE?

I mean, think about the most famous baby in the world. Who's that? I don't know. And I'm sure lots of people don't know either. Does it come close to, say, a Britney Spears? (And before people harp on me for saying she'd make a good Flame Haze, think of the upside: if she did contract a Crimson Lord, it'd be as if she never existed!)

Short of coming out of the womb speaking in tongues and telling us she's here to guide us to the Kingdom of Heaven, how could a baby be important?

[alvinkhorfire]

Crimson Lords communicate with their Flame Haze via a Device (Shinki) (I forgot what it's actually called, can someone help?)

Static Subs has translated it as Jinki in the episode 15 in anime season 1. Does that helps?

[Kinny Riddle]

But how could Baby Shana acquire so much PoE?

I mean, think about the most famous baby in the world. Who's that? I don't know. And I'm sure lots of people don't know either. Does it come close to, say, a Britney Spears? (And before people harp on me for saying she'd make a good Flame Haze, think of the upside: if she did contract a Crimson Lord, it'd be as if she never existed!)

Short of coming out of the womb speaking in tongues and telling us she's here to guide us to the Kingdom of Heaven, how could a baby be important?
This might be one of the (perceived) loop holes Takahashi has wrote himself in.

Here's my take on this:

Maybe she could be some royal baby that somehow went missing after she was born, and Wilhelmina somehow picked her up and said she was "an orphan". The "Muggle" (a convenient term, no? :D ) authorities probably spent years trying to look for her, but they (and maybe Bal Masque) were wasting their time, since she's staying in a giant floating island with a Cloaking Device.

The moment Shana made the contract with Alastor, the "Muggles" would probably completely forget that a human princess baby went missing for years.

[Anh_Minh]

So... Do you think the search somehow increased Shana's fame, and therefore her PoE?

(Because, who can name a royal baby? I certainly can't. I can barely name a few royals.)

[Nightengale]

But it's usually, right? Not always. Shana could very well be an exception.

[Kinny Riddle]

So... Do you think the search somehow increased Shana's fame, and therefore her PoE?

(Because, who can name a royal baby? I certainly can't. I can barely name a few royals.)
Before Shana becomes a Flame Haze, if you come across her, you could still wonder "Hmm could she be this royal baby that went missing years ago?" After she forms a contract with Alastor, it's no longer possible for you to wonder if she was even famous, because you no longer know of her existence, much like a Torch that got extinguished. Hence the quote Flame Hazes are no different to Torches in a way.

[Anh_Minh]

Yeah, I got that part.

I was asking how a baby, even a royal one, could acquire a "large existence". Especially one raised in isolation. Babies are usually important to their relatives, and not many else.

So I was wondering if, if Shana really was a kidnapped royal, a televised search, like the one that occurred for that child whose name, ironically enough, escapes me, could have increased her existence. By having people wonder how that princess got disappeared, and where she was... Even if they never met her, or had any "real" reason to give a damn.

[ashlay]

isn't this somewhat sidestepping the issue that Shana doesn't actually have a large existence?

Shana simply has a large "capacity", whatever that means, making her someone who Alastor can put his entire existence into. not like she was using any flames when she was training after all.

[Kinny Riddle]

isn't this somewhat sidestepping the issue that Shana doesn't actually have a large existence?

Shana simply has a large "capacity", whatever that means, making her someone who Alastor can put his entire existence into. not like she was using any flames when she was training after all.
I got most of the info from the Q&A section in volume 0. As far as I understand, "existence" and "capacity" are one and the same thing. A Crimson Lord requires a large enough existence in order for his powers to be trasferred to the Flame Haze without having to physcially manifest themselves at the expense of anybody else's PoE.

Of course, both you and Ahn Minh are not incorrect. It could probably be a simple case of Takahashi writing a plot hole for himself and I'm just talking BS here. :D

[ashlay]

I got most of the info from the Q&A section in volume 0. As far as I understand, "existence" and "capacity" are one and the same thing. A Crimson Lord requires a large enough existence in order for his powers to be trasferred to the Flame Haze without having to physcially manifest themselves at the expense of anybody else's PoE.

Of course, both you and Ahn Minh are not incorrect. It could probably be a simple case of Takahashi writing a plot hole for himself and I'm just talking BS here. :D
my mistake, should have been paying better attention. >_<

well, it does sound like something that would go in an epilogue of some kind, so I suppose the best one can hope for is that something along the lines of your theory ends up in some final exposition story.

[Kinny Riddle]

Mistes (Some spell Mystes, but that's up to each person's preferences)

Mistes are a special type of Torch in that they carry Hougus (Treasure Device), special tools used by Denizens and Flame Hazes for all sorts of purposes. (I'll write more in the Hougu entry. ) Mistes are no different from Torches in that they burn out eventually, and the person who has turned into a Mistes would be forgotten.

When the Mistes's flame is extinguished, whether gradually or forcibly terminated, the Hougu inside would be randomly transferred to another Mistes.

Depending upon the function of the Hougu being stored, some Mistes may be able to move in a Fuuzetsu or even prolong their flames. Sakai Yuji is the only Mistes able to live perpetually thanks to the Reiji Maigo inside him.

Tenmoku Ikko

Special mention must be given to the Mistes known as Tenmoku Ikko. Not a lot is known about him, save that he used to be a swordsmith that came to know of the Crimson World and the battle between Flame Hazes and Crimson Denizens. So fascinated was he by the intense battle that he decided to pour all his energy and existence into forging the Hougu katana - Nietono no Shana, which contains some of his PoE.

Some say he and the samurai armour he wears are one of the same person, some say his PoE fused with that of the samurai that wore the fearsome looking armour. In any case, one thing is clear: swordsmith was so determined in giving the katana to someone worthy enough of wielding it, he was willing to sacrifice his existence and become a Mistes on his own will.

He travelled for ages, attacking both Crimson Denizens and Flame Hazes indiscriminately in search of a worthy owner for his katana. Since he's a Mistes, his presence could not be sensed easily by both Denizens and Flame Hazes, coupled with the fact that he can move in a Fuuzetsu, making him the most feared Mistes in history.

It's never explained how his flame managed to go on for so long. One explanation is that he consumes Denizens that he slices and eats their PoE along with them. This could also explain why normal humans don't seem to notice him, for technically he's still a Torch, so his existence is not as strong as a normal humans, but just enough to keep him moving "mindlessly" in search of the "Strong One".

In the end, he finally got his wish by battling the Flame Haired Burning Eyed Assassin, and she then becomes the current owner of the katana. Her name also being derived from this blade years later by Yuji.

Trivia: Tenmoku Ikko's name (天目一個) is based on a god in Japanese mythology - Ame no Hitotsu no Kami (天目一箇神, literally "The One-Eyed God", a fitting name since Tenmoku Ikko only has one glowing eye). The kanji is similar but unlike the god which used the kunyomi spelling, author Takahashi used the onyomi spelling for Tenmoku Ikko.

Japanese wikipedia entry for Ame no Hitotsu no Kami
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A9%E7%9B%AE%E4%B8%80%E7%AE%87%E7%A5%9E

[Kinny Riddle]

People, show some enthusiasm in your discussion. Don't just lurk if you got a question. The thread is too quiet. :D

Hougu (Treasure Device)

These are the "treasure chests" of the Shana-verse. They come in all sorts of shapes and forms. Some are weapons, like the Nietono no Shana and Blutsauger, some are used as defense, like Friagne's Azure Ring (the flame-resistant ring Yuji now carries). And there are others that are placed inside Mistes, the most famous example being the Reiji Maigo. All of these Hougus are powered by PoE in one way or another.

Reiji Maigo (Midnight Stray)

The "Holy Grail" of all Crimson Denizens, in that it is able to generate PoE on its own perpetually.


The Reiji Maigo was originally created by the Crimson Lord Pheles (the green-haired lady in the second series OP). She fell in love with a human called Johan. In order to live eternally with Johan, she made Johan into a Mistes that could live forever using the Reiji Maigo, at the same time, she also relied on the PoE generated from the Reiji Maigo, thus she does not need to prey on humans.

The Denizen organization Bal Masque is intent on getting the Reiji Maigo, and has sent an assassin known as "Broken Blade" after the two.

Flame Haze Wilhelmina Carmel met and befriended them during her journey, and took it upon herself to protect them from "Broken Blade". However, "Broken Blade" finally caught hold of them and had Johan fatally wounded.

Before Johan could disintegrate, Pheles stuffed Johan's "existence" inside of the Reiji Maigo, forcing the Hougu to randomly transfer prematurely before it could fall into "Broken Blade's" hands.

In response, "Broken Blade" chanted a complicated series of Unrestricted Spells on the disappearing Reiji Maigo. The Reiji Maigo then ended up in the Mistes Sakai Yuji, allowing Yuji to "exist" perpetually.

Not much is known about what these spells would do, but Wilhelmina fears it won't be anything good. She knows Pheles is intent on resurrecting her lover, but Wilhelmina cannot afford to let the balance of the world be jeopardized, which is why she was determined to destroy Yuji.

After being stopped by Shana, Wilhelmina has to contemplate fighting her friend Pheles, who would stop at nothing at bringing Johan back at Yuji's expense.

[Ratix]

Question about Crimson Denizens and Crimson Lords... Example is that Alastor is a Crimson lord right? Are there "unkindly" counterparts of Alastor, AKA Evil Crimson Lords? The only difference is what they choose to do? Im acctually quite confused by this upon reading the manga's first few chapters, where the explanation is slightly different from that of the anime. And I suppose same for the novel(Which even though I have bought it for ages, I haven't read it. Too occupied by Haruhi >_>)

[Kinny Riddle]

Question about Crimson Denizens and Crimson Lords... Example is that Alastor is a Crimson lord right? Are there "unkindly" counterparts of Alastor, AKA Evil Crimson Lords? The only difference is what they choose to do? Im acctually quite confused by this upon reading the manga's first few chapters, where the explanation is slightly different from that of the anime. And I suppose same for the novel(Which even though I have bought it for ages, I haven't read it. Too occupied by Haruhi >_>)
They're all one and the same thing.

The "Evil Crimson Lords" that you mention are the series antagonists, those that prey on human PoE to manifest themselves physically in order to pursue their desires.

Alastor and others that form contracts with Flame Haze would be the "Good Crimson Lords" out to stop their own kind from upsetting the balance between the two worlds.

[Masanori Ota]

To be more specific, is there any difference between Crimson Denizens and Crimson Lords other than LOLPOWERLEVELS? This thread leads me to believe there isn't.

[ashlay]

To be more specific, is there any difference between Crimson Denizens and Crimson Lords other than LOLPOWERLEVELS? This thread leads me to believe there isn't.
nope, just lolpowerlevels.

the weak ones are denziens, the strong ones are lords. as the classifications suggest, nothing but heirarchy.

[tabun]

Then what would interest me is how the Lords have attained their respective power level. Age? Training? Any hints here? (I don't mind spoilers from the Manga crowd here, but others might :p )

Also, what if, let's say, the Flame of Heaven were to meet the Arbiter of Reverse Reasoning one on one, what would the difference in power be? Would it be over nine thousand? (sorry for that)

[Kinny Riddle]

Then what would interest me is how the Lords have attained their respective power level. Age? Training? Any hints here? (I don't mind spoilers from the Manga crowd here, but others might :p )

Also, what if, let's say, the Flame of Heaven were to meet the Arbiter of Reverse Reasoning one on one, what would the difference in power be? Would it be over nine thousand? (sorry for that)
Sadly, author Takahashi has yet to reveal how these two classes are distinguished. We can only assume that their ranks are based on their powers.

As for power levels between Crimson Lords, well, that's open for debate. Though technically speaking, Alastor, who is the only Crimson Lord to emit a natural red flame (compared to the "unnatural" colours of Marchosias's blue, Tiamat's purple and Behemoth's orange, etc), is considered by many from the Crimson World to be the most powerful in terms of strength, as he requires an insane amount of PoE to manifest physically. Hence his long search for a suitable container large enough to hold him.

[Masanori Ota]

Well, Alastor is only the most powerful if you ignore...

...the Serpent with his black flame and the Knight with his silver, unless the two are one and the same, but I've been lead to believe they aren't.

[tabun]

Well, Masanori Ota, I cannot relate to the characters you name in your spoiler tag; maybe they are from the novel, but have not appeared in the show thus far? If so, I thank you for trying to give some sort of comparison, but may I advise you to give some hint to the spoiler tag's content as maybe a novel/manga spoiler in it's title?

I am not really certain if you are just using an alternate description of characters already shown, or if I am right as far as the novel thing goes. Would you please clarify this for me? I would love to have some explanation of the power relations in the SHANA-series!

[ashlay]

Well, Masanori Ota, I cannot relate to the characters you name in your spoiler tag; maybe they are from the novel, but have not appeared in the show thus far? If so, I thank you for trying to give some sort of comparison, but may I advise you to give some hint to the spoiler tag's content as maybe a novel/manga spoiler in it's title?

I am not really certain if you are just using an alternate description of characters already shown, or if I am right as far as the novel thing goes. Would you please clarify this for me? I would love to have some explanation of the power relations in the SHANA-series!
lets not go into this too deeply, there's a whole topic for such things. But to keep it simple while answering your question, the yet to be seen (in the anime) former leader of Bal Masque is apparently the single most powerful Crimson Lord ever.

[hayate-sama]

i have a big question about the fuzetsu here
as far as I can understand, the fuzetsu like a sealed area where time and space stop so here is what I understand.

when a fight occur at 3 h 00 minute , they set a fuzetsu and fight then when the fuzetsu closed, it is at 3 h 00 minute no more or less. So it is impossible for both flame haze and tomogara to enter an fuzetsu from the outside even to see it because it only exit at 3h 00 minute, because like the example, it was open and close at 3 h 00 minute so they don't have enough time to enter it, if even 1/10000000.... second passed it was to late.

so why in the anime i saw that shana can enter an fuzetsu from the outside, even see it ?

[Kinny Riddle]

I was about to go into Fuuzetsus sometime this week, so here we go.

Fuuzetsu (lit. "Sealed Absolute". If you like, it can be called "Absolute Barrier", but that sounds too Evangelion-like, so I prefer "Sealed Barrier")

A dimensional barrier created by both Crimson Lords/Denizens and Flame Hazes. A Fuuzetsu is powered by PoE provided by that Crimson Denizen/Flame Haze.

In the past, Denizens openly devour humans without bothering to hide themselves, but over time, doing so would attract the attention of Flame Hazes more easily. Hence they came up with a way to "cheat", they form a Fuuzetsu of a certain radius (depends on their PoE levels), freezing everything inside into a stasis, except those related to the Crimson World, like Denizens, Flame Hazes.

Though ordinary Torches are incapable of moving in a Fuuzetsu, some Mistes have the unique ability to move around. This is one reason why the legendary Mistes Tenmoku Ikko was so feared by Denizens and Flame Hazes alike, as his presence in a Fuuzetsu can be totally unexpected and undetected.

When a Fuuzetsu is formed, it "isolates" the space within with the outside world, creating a separate dimension. Everything that is unrelated to the Crimson World freezes in static motion.

During "isolation", the space that becomes enveloped by a Fuuzetsu "disappears" from "existence" in the duration that it is on.

For example, if a Fuuzetsu is formed over Tokyo Tower for 30 minutes, then for that 30 minutes, the humans in the outside world would actually think that Tokyo Tower "never existed". Only a Flame Haze and Denizen can detect a Fuuzetsu being formed and enter and exit it as they please.

For normal humans, since Tokyo Tower "never existed", they would unconsciously avoid walking towards there. After a Fuuzetsu is closed, the humans would once again "remember" that Tokyo Tower exists, but they just can't figure out what on earth they were doing if it involves Tokyo Tower in those 30 minutes. Awkward it may seem, these humans would somehow come up with a way to "rationalise" their behaviour during that time. (As a character in the Potter novels would say "These Muggles would deny magic exist even when it's staring at them right under their noses.") This is where Tuners come in and "Fine Tune" the awkwardness and distortion felt by these humans.

Since any damage inside a Fuuzetsu can be repaired easily using PoE, they are also created by Flame Hazes as a convenient tool in order to do battle with Crimson Denizens while not affecting as little humans as possible.

Though the more hapless souls inside might get in the line of fire and even have their existence "extinguished" accidentally. Most Flame Hazes are too aloof to care anyway, as their priority is to hunt Denizens rather than protect humans. Just look at Shana at the beginning of the series, if it weren't for Yuji volunteering to use his PoE to fix the damage at his school, Shana would have turned Ike (Yoshida in the movie) into a Torch already.



hayate-sama, to answer your question, I believe this "isolation" concept has been misinterpreted badly by JC STAFF in the anime, in that time doesn't freeze inside a Fuuzetsu.

[hayate-sama]

thank for your explaination, i was thinking all night for that problem, so that mean alot of kid will be get lost because they are in a fuzetsu and their an parent is outside :heh:

[Kinny Riddle]

thank for your explaination, i was thinking all night for that problem, so that mean alot of kid will be get lost because they are in a fuzetsu and their an parent is outside :heh:
Er...I don't think they'll even remember ever getting lost, since they're in stasis inside.

While their parents outside wandered for as long the Fuuzetsu lasted as thought they "never had kids", and then reunites with them once the Fuuzetsu is down, while struggling to remember how they spend the last 30 minutes with their kids.

Of course, this is provided that those kids are lucky enough not to get devoured by Denizens and turned into Torches.

[serenade_beta]

Of course, this is provided that those kids are lucky enough not to get devoured by Denizens and turned into Torches.

Even if they become torches, the parents still will remember them, until the existence becomes too small.

[bismuth]

Where does the hougou come from? How are they created? Does the novel give any explanation? From the anime it would appear that the hougou would randomly be created on a torch.

I'm also curious about the Reiji Maigo. How did Pheles create that thing? Did the novel explain it? Probably not.

[Kinny Riddle]

Where does the hougou come from? How are they created? Does the novel give any explanation? From the anime it would appear that the hougou would randomly be created on a torch.

I'm also curious about the Reiji Maigo. How did Pheles create that thing? Did the novel explain it? Probably not.
Most Hougus are created by Crimson Denizens or Flame Hazes using PoE as one of the raw materials. There are occasions when a Hougu is created by humans, the most famous example is the swordsmith contributing his own PoE to form the formidable katana Nietono no Shana.

Mistes are just containers to carry the Hougus. Once the existing Mistes has his PoE extinguished, the Hougu inside would be transported to another Torch in a random location. That Torch would become a Mistes.

Though I've yet to read up to that part, how do you know the novels did not explain how Pheles create that thing? Are you asking a question or are you speculating? :confused:

[KaneDragon]

The creator of the Raging Mango is the part of SnS that I was spoiled about earlier, but... shouldn't that be spoiler tagged? Not that it really matters, but it reminds me of the other spoilers I know.

[OuterRem]

Hey all. I've been watching the second season and after seeing episode 4, I've started wondering some things. More than anything I have questions.

Ok we know that the rank of power generally goes like this; Kings > Denizens > Rinne > Mistes > Torches. And a Human actually has waaay more PoE than a Rinne, but has no ability to use it for anything.

But then Alastor goes and says something in episode 3 that really bothers me; He says "Reiji Maigo is constantly refilling your energy every night to the level of a King" to Yuuji.

So now everything is broken to me, because these categories that they made don't mean anything so long as you have PoE.

Cue my question.
-------------------------------

Are Rinne really stronger than a Torch? A Torch can last weeks, months maybe even years on its energy because it is stable and tapping into it at a fixed rate. Most Rinne that show up last about 3 days before they expire if their Denizen isn't feeding them constantly.

Cue my speculation.
----------------------------------

Could a Torch, theoretically...

A. Consume something else to gain more PoE.

B. Destabilize itself to have full access to its own PoE and essentially enter a "Rinne-like" state.

--------------------------------
I ask all these strange questions because, if I were a Torch, I would take it as the 'third chance'. The possibility of achieving immortality through consumption of first, other Torches, then Rinne, and finally Denizens, and if possible, Kings. All I'd have to learn to start on that road is how to Destabilize myself so that I have full energy access so that I can become a destructive entity, and how to Re-Stabilize myself so that I can again go for long periods of time without wasting life force.

I mean why not? All these "names" are subjective and just make you forget that whoever has the most energy wins.

[serenade_beta]

Hey all. I've been watching the second season and after seeing episode 4, I've started wondering some things. More than anything I have questions.

Ok we know that the rank of power generally goes like this; Kings > Denizens > Rinne > Mistes > Torches. And a Human actually has waaay more PoE than a Rinne, but has no ability to use it for anything.

But then Alastor goes and says something in episode 3 that really bothers me; He says "Reiji Maigo is constantly refilling your energy every night to the level of a King" to Yuuji.

So now everything is broken to me, because these categories that they made don't mean anything so long as you have PoE.

Cue my question.
-------------------------------

Are Rinne really stronger than a Torch? A Torch can last weeks, months maybe even years on its energy because it is stable and tapping into it at a fixed rate. Most Rinne that show up last about 3 days before they expire if their Denizen isn't feeding them constantly.

Cue my speculation.
----------------------------------

Could a Torch, theoretically...

A. Consume something else to gain more PoE.

B. Destabilize itself to have full access to its own PoE and essentially enter a "Rinne-like" state.

--------------------------------
I ask all these strange questions because, if I were a Torch, I would take it as the 'third chance'. The possibility of achieving immortality through consumption of first, other Torches, then Rinne, and finally Denizens, and if possible, Kings. All I'd have to learn to start on that road is how to Destabilize myself so that I have full energy access so that I can become a destructive entity, and how to Re-Stabilize myself so that I can again go for long periods of time without wasting life force.

I mean why not? All these "names" are subjective and just make you forget that whoever has the most energy wins.

The thing is:

Kings are Denizens, except they are stronger.
Rinne are servants.
Torches are not the same as beings of the Crimson World, while Mistes are simply treaure-holding Torches.

Kings/Denizens/Rinne are not the same as Torches/Mistes.

It's like pointing to a monkey and saying you're far more superior. Yes you are, but no one really cares and it isn't significant.

It isn't the fact/question if a Rinne is stronger because they don't even function the same way.
Torches can't move anyways, and they usually don't even know they are torches. Once it gets too small, their personality, etc. disappear too.

Their purpose is different too. Rinne are created by Denizens to gather Power of Existence so their time/lifespan doesn't have to be long and no one has to care about them.
Torches keep the balance. They are very important, thus the time/lifespan should fit to the amount of time needed to keep the balance.

Thus for your speculation:

Probably no because in the first place, torches don't have that kind of ability and are really just humans.

Yuuji is an exception, because he was lucky enough to hold the Midnight Lost Child.

[OuterRem]

I think I phrased that wrong, that's why I ended up getting this answer you have given. All of which you say is true, but not really what I meant when I asked.

Your right, the reason they have these categories is because each serves their purpose. Rinne go out and gather energy like harvesters, for their masters. We can consider them Low Cost High Maintenance Short Lifespan workers. Torches are placeholders for those already erased. They are Low Cost Low Maintenance Long Lifespan workers.

This economy of energy I already understand, though thanks again for reminding me because I forgot some of it. What I meant was basically; Aren't they all composed of the SAME energy? I'm made of atoms like my car is. I can't however change myself into a car. I know this.

But Torches, and Rinne are both created by Denizens, or basically these intruders, Kings or Hazes or not.

So what stops one from becoming another if it chooses to.

Why can't a Torch choose to prolong its life by consuming this energy and putting more fuel in the fire that is burning inside them.

Because I think the only thing that stops them is that they don't know how, but I can't seem to think of them stating a rule that they CAN'T. Which is what makes the difference.

Yuuji is an exception, because he was lucky enough to hold the Midnight Lost Child.
That's exactly what I mean. How come he has the space to fit all this energy he gets in season 2 in the first place; Hecate gave it to him, by accident, right? So now, if he can fit so much energy into himself, can't another torch somehow manage to do the same thing (turn into a bigger container), and by devouring others get energy to fill this space instead of having a deus ex machina give it to them. Sure it would slowly burn away, but slowly instead of fast, like that Rinne in season 1.

[hayate-sama]

So what stops one from becoming another if it chooses to.

Why can't a Torch choose to prolong its life by consuming this energy and putting more fuel in the fire that is burning inside them.

Because I think the only thing that stops them is that they don't know how, but I can't seem to think of them stating a rule that they CAN'T. Which is what makes the difference.

I thought each torch which is represent for the person who disapear need that person PoE to exist, that mean each person has there special PoE, which cannot be refill by another Poe but with Tomogara or rinne, it is just PoE.

So what do you think if yujji refill every torch 's PoE at mid-night by his "midnight lost child" then the world balance will be break for sure.Even if yujji have renji maigo, as far as I remember, he could only live as long as an average human - not inmortal like shana but later they said in the anime that yujji can stayed with shana forever so which one is correct ?

[OuterRem]

I thought each torch which is represent for the person who disapear need that person PoE to exist, that mean each person has there special PoE, which cannot be refill by another Poe but with Tomogara or rinne, it is just PoE.

So what do you think if yujji refill every torch 's PoE at mid-night by his "midnight lost child" then the world balance will be break for sure.Even if yujji have renji maigo, as far as I remember, he could only live as long as an average human - not inmortal like shana but later they said in the anime that yujji can stayed with shana forever so which one is correct ?

There we go, that's probably what I was missing.

"Each human being's PoE is unique." That's the kind of rule that makes sense from a logical standpoint, and still fit in with their literary universe.

According to that, even if a torch could steal energy, he or she needs a specific energy, e.g. the energy that made up whoever they are holding the place of.

-------------------
As to what you asked about; if it's true that their energy is unique, then they can't take energy from Yuuji, because it's not the same.

If that turns out not to be a rule, then I don't see why it would unbalance things. The world had no issue with the original people existing, so it wouldn't make sense for it to be a problem if their placeholders had a life extension.

It's like pointing to a monkey and saying you're far more superior. Yes you are, but no one really cares and it isn't significant.
I felt the same way until Alastor said what he did to Yuuji in Episode 3. Now after hearing that it seems more like I'm pointing to a guy with a gun (The Rinne) who is shooting people and asking "Why can't I do that?" Well that's because he's got the gun. So the question becomes, is it impossible for me (The Torch) to get this same kind of gun, and maybe shoot him? If I could do that, and survive, and win even. Then it becomes much more significant.

[Kinny Riddle]

Rinne are made up of "foreign PoE", i.e. PoE that isn't their own. While Torches are just the remnant of a person's PoE. Both would eventually burn out, but the difference is that a Rinne can resupply itself with other people's PoE while a Torch cannot.

The Reiji Maigo is unique is that it is able to refill its daily PoE on its own, or even add to its PoE amount. Something not even a Crimson Lord, let alone a Rinne, can do. This is why the Reiji Maigo is so coveted.

[hayate-sama]

As to what you asked about; if it's true that their energy is unique, then they can't take energy from Yuuji, because it's not the same. :heh: it s a joke. But may be I misunderstand that the world s balance in shana is not the amount of PoE. But if someone die then where is his/her PoE gone ?

After a while, I come up with a idea that flame haze job is keeping those tomogara/ guze stuffs from being known by our world more than keeping the balance of the world :uhoh:

[OuterRem]

Ok so this system makes more sense now. Thanks all for your help.

I guess Rinne are just a mishmash of different PoE from different things, and that's why its so easy for them to fall apart.

So what I wonder is if humans have a set amount of PoE.

The funny thing about this show is that it has a lot of existential philosophical problems but has no grounds to approach them with anything approaching reason.

But if someone die then where is his/her PoE gone ?
It should still be around, because we still know about famous people from centuries ago. And some from millenia ago.

Even those people that aren't famous they didn't stop existing after they died, they just stop living. That's a big difference. If my grand parents stopped from having ever existed after they died, I would disappear too, even if I was alive at that time.

That's a conundrum.

[stormy001_M1A2]

So in all means, Reiji Maigo is single most destabilizing artifact that can shatter the delicate balance as depicted in the story? Am I getting this part right? What was Lord Pheles thinking when she creating this? Sure this person knew how dangerous this item is in terms of balance of existence.

[ashlay]

So in all means, Reiji Maigo is single most destabilizing artifact that can shatter the delicate balance as depicted in the story? Am I getting this part right? What was Lord Pheles thinking when she creating this? Sure this person knew how dangerous this item is in terms of balance of existence.
well to look at it in a different way, using the existence generated by the Reiji Maigo is less destabilizing than consuming the existences of humans.

though of course like all those who come from the crimson realm, the creator did it first and foremost to fulfill their own selfish desires.

[hayate-sama]

I want to ask that if a person power of existence is eaten by a rinne/tomogara, no matter how small the amount is, that person dissapear right ?

And about the question I ask earlier, the PoE of the famous people who have already died, does rinne or tomogara can absorb that PoE or not ?

Flame haze is a person who have a huge amount of PoE right but that amount have a limit so if they use their power so much, will they disappear ? exspecialy Shana, who have summon alastor once ?

[lua thien]

Out of curiosity, since Pheles created the Reiji Maigo, is it possible that she can create another one?

[tabun]

And about the question I ask earlier, the PoE of the famous people who have already died, does rinne or tomogara can absorb that PoE or not ?
I would like to think that the tomogara or rinne can only absorb PoE as long as it is bound to a human being, and that after a person dies, their PoE slowly dissipates over time (i.e. people slowly forgetting the dead, dying themselves etc.), thus keeping the balance.
If, say, a tomogara was able to absorb PoE unbound to a human being, why would they bother to go out and hunt down humans, let alone create rinne to do the job for them? They could just sit back and tap on the PoE of dead people floating through the skies (and yes, that is poor visualisation on my part).

[ashlay]

Out of curiosity, since Pheles created the Reiji Maigo, is it possible that she can create another one?
while possible, that's highly unlikely.

Though Hougu are containers for PoE, which usually means a Crimson denizen/Lord is required to create them, Hougu gain their peculiar abilities from the wishes/true desires of the humans used to make them: the more ridiculous the desire, the more powerful the Hougu can potentially be. To use Tenmoku Ikko as an example, he wanted more than anything to create a weapon to defeat Crimson Denizens. And so Nietono no Shana becomes a sword that ignores their most powerful abilities. (unrestricted methods) Similarly, The Reiji Maigo required a very particular and extreme wish from a human to have the abilities it has.

[Kinny Riddle]

So in all means, Reiji Maigo is single most destabilizing artifact that can shatter the delicate balance as depicted in the story? Am I getting this part right? What was Lord Pheles thinking when she creating this? Sure this person knew how dangerous this item is in terms of balance of existence.

As cliched as it may sound, never underestimate the power of love. :cool:

She simply wanted her human lover Johann to live in eternity with her, as well as not needing to hunt on humans anymore. (I want to believe that Johann more or less influenced her to have pity on humans, but I haven't read to that part yet. )

I want to ask that if a person power of existence is eaten by a rinne/tomogara, no matter how small the amount is, that person dissapear right ?

And about the question I ask earlier, the PoE of the famous people who have already died, does rinne or tomogara can absorb that PoE or not ?

I should think that when a person dies, his PoE becomes scattered as it's so small, but never disappears. It's too time consuming for a Denizen to go around collecting scattered PoE when they can obtain it much quickly and effectively from a living person. Even collecting PoE from Torches, Rami's way of acquiring PoE over the centuries, is more efficient.


Flame haze is a person who have a huge amount of PoE right but that amount have a limit so if they use their power so much, will they disappear ? exspecialy Shana, who have summon alastor once ?

Unlike Denizens and Torches, a human being's PoE doesn't run out, while it may decrease as they get older and their bonds to society gets weaker and weaker, but it never goes to zero.

A Flame Haze is a person with a very high PoE value. A Crimson Lord would of course want to form a contract with him when his PoE value is at its potential maximum. Once the contract is made, the PoE value stays that way, as they're made immortal and detached from the human world.

For your second question, I'll be using the movie/novel to explain, as that's the original:

The function of Friagne's Trigger Happy gun is to "smash the container" carrying the Crimson Lord, forcefully depriving the Lord of his PoE. As the PoE needed to contain him is gone, the Lord would have two choices: 1. acquire nearby PoE for him to manifest physically, which could cause great damage; or 2. return to the Crimson World to reduce damage.

Shana doesn't disappear after getting shot because, as explained, she's still got "plenty of room" remaining even after Alastor got summoned to our physical world. Something Friagne never expected.

Out of curiosity, since Pheles created the Reiji Maigo, is it possible that she can create another one?

If she could, then all the Denizens would be queuing up to get her to make one for them already, instead of having to go around devouring so many humans, which is so much harder as they risk getting hunted down by Flame Hazes.

[Neki Ecko]

So in all means, Reiji Maigo is single most destabilizing artifact that can shatter the delicate balance as depicted in the story? Am I getting this part right? What was Lord Pheles thinking when she creating this? Sure this person knew how dangerous this item is in terms of balance of existence.

Kinny Riddle hit this on the head, It is a power of Love that made her do that. In a way you can see that Shana is following the same path that Pheles did a long time ago but only a couple of differences, Pheles only thought of humans as nothing but POE to feed on as Shana only thought of human as nothing but touches but then they met two human guys that made them change so much, from the way they were to what they are now. In a way, the reason why that Reiji Maigo was made, so Pheles wouldnt never take anybody else POE and spend the rest of her life with the one that changed her and love her for who she is.

[lazyasian224]

But how could Baby Shana acquire so much PoE?


i know this came up a really long time ago... but i was browsing thru this thread and i thought of a possibility

is it possible that Shana gained the existance from Alastor's previous flame haze, since shana herself if she was an orphan, technically could possibly have no existance at all if her parents were eaten or something.

If u think about it this way, Baby shana could have been like an empty like hecate sorta... and alastor maybe might have passed on some of his previous contract's existance to fill her empty existance?

that could explain her HUGE existance because i mean... almost everyone knows the Flame of Heaven and his previous Flame Haze... maybe even more after she summoned Alastor and died. Since existance is not limited by life.

[Kinny Riddle]

i know this came up a really long time ago... but i was browsing thru this thread and i thought of a possibility

is it possible that Shana gained the existance from Alastor's previous flame haze, since shana herself if she was an orphan, technically could possibly have no existance at all if her parents were eaten or something.

If u think about it this way, Baby shana could have been like an empty like hecate sorta... and alastor maybe might have passed on some of his previous contract's existance to fill her empty existance?

that could explain her HUGE existance because i mean... almost everyone knows the Flame of Heaven and his previous Flame Haze... maybe even more after she summoned Alastor and died. Since existance is not limited by life.

I don't think that's possible, as Flame Hazes used to be humans themselves.

As I mentioned earlier, while a Denizen or Rinne can replenish itself or even increase its PoE amount by absorbing the PoE of others (the difference from that and the Reiji Maigo is that the Reiji Maigo replenish and increases PoE on its own), humans cannot. Humans can only "stretch" their existence via their social networking.



Think of humans as "clay potteries" of various sizes while Denizens are like "water", since "water" cannot take form without a container.

Denizens/Lords who steal others PoE are forcefully taking form unnaturally without using a pot. But as they have no container to hold their "water", it would eventually leak if they don't replenish it constantly. Lords who form contracts with Flame Hazes use the more natural way, in that they seek a "pot" to contain themselves.

A great Crimson Lord would require a very large "pot" to contain the large amount of "water" that comes with him. Once a pot is made (forming the contract), you can't just ask the pot to grow bigger anymore, so the Lord would need to choose carefully.

[lazyasian224]

I don't think that's possible, as Flame Hazes used to be humans themselves.

As I mentioned earlier, while a Denizen or Rinne can replenish itself or even increase its PoE amount by absorbing the PoE of others (the difference from that and the Reiji Maigo is that the Reiji Maigo replenish and increases PoE on its own), humans cannot. Humans can only "stretch" their existence via their social networking.



Think of humans as "clay potteries" of various sizes while Denizens are like "water", since "water" cannot take form without a container.

Denizens/Lords who steal others PoE are forcefully taking form unnaturally without using a pot. But as they have no container to hold their "water", it would eventually leak if they don't replenish it constantly. Lords who form contracts with Flame Hazes use the more natural way, in that they seek a "pot" to contain themselves.

A great Crimson Lord would require a very large "pot" to contain the large amount of "water" that comes with him. Once a pot is made (forming the contract), you can't just ask the pot to grow bigger anymore, so the Lord would need to choose carefully.

okay, i think i get that part now :D arigato

but still, is it possible for Shana and Alastor's previous flame haze to maybe share the same existance? Cant a person be reborn and contain the same existance as the person they were originally? and also, realize how shana sorta "aquired" hirai yukari's existance by using a small amount of hirai's PoV. isnt it possible that Shana also "aquired" Alastor's original flame haze's existance? because its possible to have more than one existance considering that to almost every other human in the world, Shana exists as Hirai Yukari, yet to Yuji, and the few other humans that know about Shana being a flame haze (Yoshida and Margery's two henchmen or w.e) Shana exists as two people who are the same...

im gonna apoligize ahead of time for confusion...

[ashlay]

I don't think that's possible, as Flame Hazes used to be humans themselves.

As I mentioned earlier, while a Denizen or Rinne can replenish itself or even increase its PoE amount by absorbing the PoE of others (the difference from that and the Reiji Maigo is that the Reiji Maigo replenish and increases PoE on its own), humans cannot. Humans can only "stretch" their existence via their social networking.
I'm not necessarily sure that discounts the idea though.

Sure, a human can't gain another's power of existence, but that doesn't mean they can't gain another's social connections. After all, the Flaming Haired and Blazing Eyed Assassin is supposedly the most well known of all the Flame Hazes. For such a renowned 'position', is it crazy to say that by simply being the successor Shana's own existence was affected?

[KaneDragon]

For such a renowned 'position', is it crazy to say that by simply being the successor Shana's own existence was affected?
That idea appeals to me, but it doesn't seem to mesh with other aspects, like Flame Hazes and the like not forgetting (except for by just not caring :p) about people who disappear, and how the human existence of a Flame Haze 'disappears' when they become on (if I recall correctly). Which is to say, notoriety doesn't count for people like them.

[ashlay]

That idea appeals to me, but it doesn't seem to mesh with other aspects, like Flame Hazes and the like not forgetting (except for by just not caring :p) about people who disappear, and how the human existence of a Flame Haze 'disappears' when they become on (if I recall correctly). Which is to say, notoriety doesn't count for people like them.
well, that's assuming notoriety from the crimson realm doesn't count. which is perfectly possible.

but on the other hand the entire thing wraps itself up quite nicely: flame hazes have a set PoE once they become a flame haze, so even if Matilda gained fame among the crimson realm, her PoE wouldn't be affected by the fame, which is why she dies. Shana as a human however can benefit from said fame centuries later thanks to the fact Denizens and Lords don't have any set lifespan, meaning the notoriety doesn't particularly die down, and then become a flame haze herself. Would also get rid of that nasty issue of how an orphan would be chosen, since if PoE "size" didn't matter, Wilhelmina and Alastor were just looking for someone who won't have negative feelings about the crimson realm and can be taught to uphold the balance.

I dunno, it just seems to be a somewhat appealing theory at the moment.

[lazyasian224]

yay someone supports my crazy ideas!

[lazyasian224]

That idea appeals to me, but it doesn't seem to mesh with other aspects, like Flame Hazes and the like not forgetting (except for by just not caring :p) about people who disappear, and how the human existence of a Flame Haze 'disappears' when they become on (if I recall correctly). Which is to say, notoriety doesn't count for people like them.

basically this arguement depends on whether Crimson Denizens and Lords count towards existance of a human in the human world.

[Kinny Riddle]

okay, i think i get that part now :D arigato

but still, is it possible for Shana and Alastor's previous flame haze to maybe share the same existance? Cant a person be reborn and contain the same existance as the person they were originally?

I don't think reincarnation applies in the Shana-verse. At least it's not revealed yet by Takahashi. Shana is Shana, and Matilda (her predecessor) is Matilda. They're two different people, full stop.


and also, realize how shana sorta "aquired" hirai yukari's existance by using a small amount of hirai's PoV. isnt it possible that Shana also "aquired" Alastor's original flame haze's existance?

because its possible to have more than one existance considering that to almost every other human in the world, Shana exists as Hirai Yukari, yet to Yuji, and the few other humans that know about Shana being a flame haze (Yoshida and Margery's two henchmen or w.e) Shana exists as two people who are the same...

You're confusing the two aspects.

A Flame Haze has the ability to "butt in" a Torch's existence and assumes the identity of that Torch, usually for reconnaissance purposes.

There is a special prequel chapter in volume 0 that chronicles Shana's attempt in doing detective work while assuming a Torch's identity. This was just before she came to Misaki City and met Yuji. Upon completion of her mission and vanquishing the Denizen, Shana no longer has any use for the Torch's "existence", and so she extinguished it.

Currently, she's remained as "Hirai Yukari" for far too long than what one would expect. Simply because Shana's begun to be attached to Yuji and Misaki City, which would have repercussions later on in the story.

On the other hand, it is not Shana "acquiring" Alastor's existence. It's the other way round - Alastor requires Shana's existence in order for his power to be used to hunt other Denizens without having to steal anyone's PoE.

im gonna apoligize ahead of time for confusion...

Sorry to sound like the Spelling Nazi, but you would also need to apologize for your horrendous spelling. For god's sake, this forum interface has a spell check, use it! :cool:

Sure, a human can't gain another's power of existence, but that doesn't mean they can't gain another's social connections.

Fair enough, when a prince succeeds his father the king, his social network expands due to his esteem as a king compared to a prince.

After all, the Flaming Haired and Blazing Eyed Assassin is supposedly the most well known of all the Flame Hazes. For such a renowned 'position', is it crazy to say that by simply being the successor Shana's own existence was affected?

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey.

As much as I can understand, any person who forms a contract with Alastor would be conveyed the title "Flame-Haired Blazing-Eyed Assassin", just as anyone who is contracted to Marchosius would be the "Interpreter of Condolences", etc.

Think of it like different jobs requiring different qualifications to justify the various salaries. The position "Flame-Haired Blazing-Eyed Assassin" requires someone with the right amount of existence to justify holding Alastor inside her. Shana comes with that huge amount of PoE she has with her.

but on the other hand the entire thing wraps itself up quite nicely: flame hazes have a set PoE once they become a flame haze, so even if Matilda gained fame among the crimson realm, her PoE wouldn't be affected by the fame, which is why she dies.

Shana as a human however can benefit from said fame centuries later thanks to the fact Denizens and Lords don't have any set lifespan, meaning the notoriety doesn't particularly die down, and then become a flame haze herself. Would also get rid of that nasty issue of how an orphan would be chosen, since if PoE "size" didn't matter, Wilhelmina and Alastor were just looking for someone who won't have negative feelings about the crimson realm and can be taught to uphold the balance.

While most of it is spot on, you've got one fact wrong (see bold). Matilda died because she decides to forcefully smash her body apart and allow Alastor to physically manifest, apparently to put a swift end to a war between Denizens and Flame Hazes. Had she not made this sacrifice, she would have continued to live on to this day.

basically this arguement depends on whether Crimson Denizens and Lords count towards existance of a human in the human world.

I can tell you, they do not count towards the total PoE of a human. Look at my "pottery" and "water" example above. A Crimson Lord is just "borrowing" the existence of a human so that their powers can be utilized via that human.

[lazyasian224]

I don't think reincarnation applies in the Shana-verse. At least it's not revealed yet by Takahashi. Shana is Shana, and Matilda (her predecessor) is Matilda. They're two different people, full stop.


omg thank u i can finally stop writing "Alastor's previous flame haze" :D


A Flame Haze has the ability to "butt in" a Torch's existence and assumes the identity of that Torch, usually for reconnaissance purposes.

There is a special prequel chapter in volume 0 that chronicles Shana's attempt in doing detective work while assuming a Torch's identity. This was just before she came to Misaki City and met Yuji. Upon completion of her mission and vanquishing the Denizen, Shana no longer has any use for the Torch's "existence", and so she extinguished it.

Currently, she's remained as "Hirai Yukari" for far too long than what one would expect. Simply because Shana's begun to be attached to Yuji and Misaki City, which would have repercussions later on in the story.


okay so hypothetically, when a Flame Haze “butts into” a Torch’s existence, since that flame haze is now that torch, wouldn’t the flame haze gain that torch’s relationships with other people and therefore, have more existence?


On the other hand, it is not Shana "acquiring" Alastor's existence. It's the other way round - Alastor requires Shana's existence in order for his power to be used to hunt other Denizens without having to steal anyone's PoE.


When I said this, I meant was it possible for Shana to “butt in” on Matilda’s existence? Assuming that Alastor kept some of Matilda’s power of existence after she died and saved it for Shana to “butt into.”

Sorry to sound like the Spelling Nazi, but you would also need to apologize for your horrendous spelling. For god's sake, this forum interface has a spell check, use it! :cool:


np, i know it gets annoying when people like me are always spelling stuff wrong... now if only i can find that spell check... :confused:


I can tell you, they do not count towards the total PoE of a human. Look at my "pottery" and "water" example above. A Crimson Lord is just "borrowing" the existence of a human so that their powers can be utilized via that human.

Let me rephrase. If a specific human is known by a Crimson Denizen or lord, does that human have more PoE due to that relationship? Or is the amount of PoE you contain only affected by members of the same world?

[Kinny Riddle]

okay so hypothetically, when a Flame Haze “butts into” a Torch’s existence, since that flame haze is now that torch, wouldn’t the flame haze gain that torch’s relationships with other people and therefore, have more existence?

No. The Flame Haze would only be "borrowing" that Torch's "connections" in order to blend in. That prequel chapter has further description on how Shana taps into these "social connections" that she senses. Like when approaching the parents of the late Torch, she can sense a much "stronger, intimate feeling", and with the Torch's boyfriend, an emotion "so strong it can't be described easily".

But overall, it does not add to Shana's PoE, she is only borrowing it, just as she's still borrowing Hirai Yukari's remnant PoE. This is the major difference between a Denizen and a Flame Haze. A Denizen (and Reiji Maigo as well) can absorb and add to its total PoE value, a Flame Haze is stuck with what he's got.



When I said this, I meant was it possible for Shana to “butt in” on Matilda’s existence? Assuming that Alastor kept some of Matilda’s power of existence after she died and saved it for Shana to “butt into.”

You can't butt into the existence of people who're already dead via the more "natural" way, i.e. never got their existence devoured. When Matilda died, Alastor lost a vessel, and so had to return to the Crimson World, communicating with this world through that "flame pool" in Tendoukyuu.


Let me rephrase. If a specific human is known by a Crimson Denizen or lord, does that human have more PoE due to that relationship? Or is the amount of PoE you contain only affected by members of the same world?

Sorry, I don't quite understand this question.

[lazyasian224]

No. The Flame Haze would only be "borrowing" that Torch's "connections" in order to blend in. That prequel chapter has further description on how Shana taps into these "social connections" that she senses. Like when approaching the parents of the late Torch, she can sense a much "stronger, intimate feeling", and with the Torch's boyfriend, an emotion "so strong it can't be described easily".

But overall, it does not add to Shana's PoE, she is only borrowing it, just as she's still borrowing Hirai Yukari's remnant PoE. This is the major difference between a Denizen and a Flame Haze. A Denizen (and Reiji Maigo as well) can absorb and add to its total PoE value, a Flame Haze is stuck with what he's got.


okay that makes sense now guess I just needed that last sentence to make everything click. :D


You can't butt into the existence of people who're already dead via the more "natural" way, i.e. never got their existence devoured. When Matilda died, Alastor lost a vessel, and so had to return to the Crimson World, communicating with this world through that "flame pool" in Tendoukyuu.


I don’t get why not, natural dying does not mean the end of existence… just because someone is dead its not like everyone forgets about that person. Therefore some of that person’s existence remains with the people that he knew. I’d think it be a lot easier to butt into a person’s existence that died naturally since their existence wasn’t completely erased as in a devouring.

But then again if u butted into a dead person’s existence… you’d be messing with the balance because then in other people’s eyes, someone will have been revived from the dead. I duno :D



Well, if the PoE of human’s increases with the amount of social connections that they have with other humans, does a social connection with a Crimson Denizen or lord also increase the PoE of a human?

For example:

An orphaned baby who no one knows about is discovered by say… Hecate. Say Hecate takes care of the baby in secret for a while. Does that human baby’s power of existence increase because of a social connection to Hecate? Or do relationships with members of the opposite world (Guze) not affect a human’s own power of existence since beings of Guze do not exist in the human world?

[Kinny Riddle]

I don’t get why not, natural dying does not mean the end of existence… just because someone is dead its not like everyone forgets about that person. Therefore some of that person’s existence remains with the people that he knew. I’d think it be a lot easier to butt into a person’s existence that died naturally since their existence wasn’t completely erased as in a devouring.

But then again if u butted into a dead person’s existence… you’d be messing with the balance because then in other people’s eyes, someone will have been revived from the dead. I duno :D

OK, I'll concede that Flame Hazes may be able to "butt into" a dead person's PoE, but it's impractical.

Firstly, a dead person's PoE is too insignificantly small compared to a living person. Even a dwindling Torch has more PoE.

Secondly, as you have noticed, everyone now would know that this person's supposed to be dead, so let's say you try and "butt into" Ronald Reagan's existence in the present day, you'll be causing a ruckus rather than trying to investigate in stealth, which defeats the purpose of "butting in" in the first place.


Well, if the PoE of human’s increases with the amount of social connections that they have with other humans, does a social connection with a Crimson Denizen or lord also increase the PoE of a human?

For example:

An orphaned baby who no one knows about is discovered by say… Hecate. Say Hecate takes care of the baby in secret for a while. Does that human baby’s power of existence increase because of a social connection to Hecate? Or do relationships with members of the opposite world (Guze) not affect a human’s own power of existence since beings of Guze do not exist in the human world?

I would think that the baby's PoE wouldn't increase at all. I'm guessing PoE is dependent on bonds between the physical world, not bonds based on the Crimson World.

[hayate-sama]

Say Hecate takes care of the baby in secret for a while

Then the only person or Tomogara know that baby exists is Hecate so that baby don't gain much connection.

Or do relationships with members of the opposite world (Guze) not affect a human’s own power of existence since beings of Guze do not exist in the human world?

Tomogara don't have relationship with human ( except Pheles - a fairy tale of guze about the power of love) they just eat our existence and more important except you have some Hongu (Yoshida) or have some Unrestricted Spell being casted on you, you will be freeze inside the Fuzetsu.

I just have some funny ideas about human/ tomogara/ flame haze from Kinny Riddle 's water and pot theory.
PoE = water
Human = water ball, once it brake , cannot be repaired but can grow bigger
Torch = another type of water ball , but cannot keep water being split out and cannot grow bigger
Flamhaze = pot , pretty big, contain a lot of water but cannot add in or get water from it.
Tomogara = uhm another type of ball like torch but can be refill by getting water.
Myste = special type of torch, contain something interesting inside it like water generator ( renji maigo), music box, ring ( azure ) and teddy bear ^^..

[lazyasian224]

Tomogara don't have relationship with human ( except Pheles - a fairy tale of guze about the power of love) they just eat our existence and more important except you have some Hongu (Yoshida) or have some Unrestricted Spell being casted on you, you will be freeze inside the Fuzetsu.


but Guze no Ou do have relationships with humans. Alastor - Yuji's mom, Margery's Book dude - Margery's Henchmen dudes, That Tuner's Braclet thing - Yoshida. So my questions was if these relationships affect the PoE of the Humans involved. Which i see was answered by Kiddy Riddle. Thank you. Looks like u have another person to suggest the spell checker to.

[ashlay]

While most of it is spot on, you've got one fact wrong (see bold). Matilda died because she decides to forcefully smash her body apart and allow Alastor to physically manifest, apparently to put a swift end to a war between Denizens and Flame Hazes. Had she not made this sacrifice, she would have continued to live on to this day.
my mistake.

I had been under the impression that such actions were required because Matilda couldn't fully manifest Alastor like Shana could due to PoE restrictions.

[hayate-sama]

Looks like u have another person to suggest the spell checker to.

What do you mean ? sorry I 'm not a native speaker.

Guze no Ou do have relationships with humans. Alastor - Yuji's mom, Margery's Book dude - Margery's Henchmen dudes, That Tuner's Braclet thing - Yoshida

I thought the relationship with crimson lord don't effect the PoE of human in our world. But if a person or a torch know the truth of this world they could become ineffective with the existence rule.

EX : Yuji began to see the flame in a torch after get inside the fuzetsu and in the preview for the 16 th volume

furthermore シャナ and Yoshida Kazumi continue to believe his existence
look like Yoshida still remember Yuji after the snake take over his body

Losing origin 'the power of existence' it assumed that it was not i wonder what does this mean ? Look like the extra existence Yuji got doesn't belong to him

[KaneDragon]

An orphaned baby who no one knows about is discovered by say… Hecate. Say Hecate takes care of the baby in secret for a while.
...Hecate... raising a baby... *clutches chest, falls over* ;_;


Hm. If a torch dies before it burns out, does it still burn out?

[alvinkhorfire]

Was it explained in the novels on the steps to cast a Fuzetsu? I don't suppose the only explantion is that the Flame Haze is concentrating and yells Fuzetsu.

[Paul]

Hm. If a torch dies before it burns out, does it still burn out?

Well i think it just burns out when the torch dies, you know, at the same time. If i remember correctly this was shown or talked about during shana and Yuijis first encounter with the puppet-lover, although i am not sure of this.

[KaneDragon]

Was it explained in the novels on the steps to cast a Fuzetsu? I don't suppose the only explantion is that the Flame Haze is concentrating and yells Fuzetsu.

I'm hoping that you can actually choose whatever keyword you want to activate a Fuzetsu, just so I can imagine someone using, say, ZA WARUDO!!!! :D

What happens to objects that are moved or changed during a Fuzetsu if these changes are not corrected by applying PoE? Does a person who was inside the Fuzetsu suddenly start thinking that the changes were always there? What about a person who was outside the Fuzetsu (considering that for the duration of the spell they would have forgotten the existence of the entire area that was enclosed)? Just checking.

[lazyasian224]

What happens to objects that are moved or changed during a Fuzetsu if these changes are not corrected by applying PoE?

one of two things, it would either seem like it had always been that way if it is minor, or people who noticed the difference would begin to wonder why and that would cause imbalance and distortion

Does a person who was inside the Fuzetsu suddenly start thinking that the changes were always there? up there...^

What about a person who was outside the Fuzetsu (considering that for the duration of the spell they would have forgotten the existence of the entire area that was enclosed)? Just checking.its exactly as u said. for that duration of time, the enclosed area would no longer exist so people would simply forget everything related to that area until the fuzetsu is dispelled, then they remember

[KaneDragon]

its exactly as u said. for that duration of time, the enclosed area would no longer exist so people would simply forget everything related to that area until the fuzetsu is dispelled, then they remember
But which version would they remember? How things used to be, or how things are after changes in the fuzetsu?

[lazyasian224]

But which version would they remember? How things used to be, or how things are after changes in the fuzetsu?

sorta confused with what your asking but the question thats coming through to me is that if something changes within the fuzetsu and is not fixed when it is dispelled, what do people think about it?

if there is a change, someone might notice it, since they would realize that not everything is exactly the same as what they remember. They still retain all of their memories of that place, but since the present doesnt completly match their memories, they might question it which leads to distortion and imbalance but yea... thats another story... :D

[FateAnomaly]

From the description of POE, i think it is possible to artificially increase a person POE. Since POE is bascially connections and recognition, all you need is to make the person ridiculously famous. (say known by 1/2 the world) It will probably require alot of $$ but should be no problem for those with Fuzetsu to make. Once a person is ridiculously famous change the person into a Flame Haze then the POE will be fixed at that value. Then the person existence is erased through the process. Since it is so ridiculous in the first place, it will be easier to normalise and rationalise into non-existence.

Anyway, what will happen when the balance is upset?

[ashlay]

Anyway, what will happen when the balance is upset?
Whatever happens when severe paradoxes in reality pop up.

everything could very well blink itself out of existence, crimson realm and human realm both.

[Malintex_Terek]

Whatever happens when severe paradoxes in reality pop up.

everything could very well blink itself out of existence, crimson realm and human realm both.

Nobody knows what would happen if a paraodx occured, they only appear mathematically and that's assuming the universe doesn't conspire with itself to prevent paradoxes from occuring.

Suffice to say, that's now what would occur here. Human beings would notice the mass disappearences and panic would ensue - at best, they arm themselves to fight the Tomogara, since discovering the infiltration of such beings wouldn't be far behind discovering the disappearences.

But beyond that "upsetting the balance" is vague, and I believe intentionally so - it could be an important plot point in the future.

From the description of POE, i think it is possible to artificially increase a person POE. Since POE is bascially connections and recognition, all you need is to make the person ridiculously famous. (say known by 1/2 the world) It will probably require alot of $$ but should be no problem for those with Fuzetsu to make. Once a person is ridiculously famous change the person into a Flame Haze then the POE will be fixed at that value. Then the person existence is erased through the process. Since it is so ridiculous in the first place, it will be easier to normalise and rationalise into non-existence.


I don't understand your logic - how can a person who is known throughout the world have a ridiculous existence? There's nothing to doubt there that would prompt people to shove off something into the back of their minds as "impossible" - like, seeing a ghost and passing it off as a trick of the eye. There's no way someone could be so famous that people wouldn't believe that person couldn't exist.

Also I think you were trying to imply that a Torch could be prolonged if a person became super-popular. There are a couple issues with this - first, remember that a Torch doesn't function in the same way as fire, it's like a container. Or a balloon filled with water, even better (someone said this I believe earlier). A normal person would be a balloon getting filled with water as he/she grows more popular. A dead person would be a deflated balloon with some water in it. A Torch would be a small balloon with a leak - no matter how much water goes in, it'll continue to leak.

But, on the second issue, being a small balloon inherently prevents someone from finding a tap to get water, id est Yuuji found it difficult for people to acknolwedge Hirai's presence and keep it there - it's almost like, if there's a tap, it slowly turns off for Torches.

[FateAnomaly]

I am not talking about a torch. I am saying if the Crimson Lord want a host with large POE, they could artificially create one. The ridiculous part has to do with how the person become famous. Considerably how far reaching the mass media is with (internet, tv etc), it shouldn't be too hard with enough $$. The news don't even have to be true since recognition is enough to generate POE.

About the paradox thing, there isn't really a paradox in reality. Its only a paradox in perception. So i don't think anything will get blow up.

So what if they found out? Its not like they can do anything about it.

[Malintex_Terek]

So what if they found out? Its not like they can do anything about it.

I'd say you under-estimate the power of humanity. ;)

Annaberg recognized humanity's constructive engine; like a bunch of ants who work together to overthrow their grasshopper overlords, the human race could adapt to battle against the Tomogara and Flame Haze over time to stop them. The Flame Haze don't appear to gain in power as they age (just experience), so it would be a war of attrition against their number.

Even better, most Hougu are enchanted weapons from various time periods anyway (like Trigger Happy) - even if the humans couldn't develop something to combat the Fuzetsu, they could use the Hougu to track Tomogara or Flame Haze as they are camouflaged and attack them by surprise.

[teachopvutru]

Would a person's popularity actually determine his/her Power of Existence? I don't think it works that way...

[Kinny Riddle]

I'd say you under-estimate the power of humanity. ;)

Annaberg recognized humanity's constructive engine; like a bunch of ants who work together to overthrow their grasshopper overlords, the human race could adapt to battle against the Tomogara and Flame Haze over time to stop them. The Flame Haze don't appear to gain in power as they age (just experience), so it would be a war of attrition against their number.

Even better, most Hougu are enchanted weapons from various time periods anyway (like Trigger Happy) - even if the humans couldn't develop something to combat the Fuzetsu, they could use the Hougu to track Tomogara or Flame Haze as they are camouflaged and attack them by surprise.
And you're overestimating the power of humanity. Takahashi has made that point explicitly clear.

Back in the medieval ages a few hundred years ago, humans already fear these Denizens as myths of people disappearing to all sorts of monsters spread around, and still they can't do anything about it. In fact, these "Muggles" has decided not to do anything and pretend it never existed.

And ever since Fuuzetsu was invented 400 years ago (yes, Fuuzetsu is a relatively "recent" addition to the Crimson Denizens skills), without the presence of a Flame Haze, the odds are completely tipped in the Denizens favour. To put it simply, a Fuuzetsu is a Denizen's way of cheating.

If you're inside a Fuuzetsu, unless you're a Flame Haze, you're as good as screwed.

[X207]

are flame haze dislocated from the world? meaning that they are viewed by all ppl to simply be strangers unless they slide themselves into a realm ie hikari.

[KaneDragon]

Well, an out-of-character Flame Haze could always hand out charms to certain people, to allow them to move inside the barriers... I'm very open to the possibility of mixing "magic" and technology. The implications are there, right? (I wonder if communication charms work FTL...)

Hmm... Are Denizens vulnerable to regular guns by any chance, or are their humanoid forms just a front? BOOM HEADSHOT! :p

If we can't have human crack troops, humans could at least act as lookouts in every city, perhaps devise Denizen-sensors of some kind (would attaching an anti-Fuzetzu charm to a spy satellite allow it to spot Fuzetzus on Earth?), and then alert Flame Hazes for where to go.

[HashiriyaR32]

Hmm... Are Denizens vulnerable to regular guns by any chance, or are their humanoid forms just a front? BOOM HEADSHOT!

Good question. If regular ammunition doesn't work, we'll have to dig out Frigane's recipe for "container breaker" rounds.

[Anh_Minh]

It only works on Flame Haze because their partners don't want to upset the balance. That's basically holding the world hostage to make them go away. Not very smart if it's your world, and your opponents (the "bad" Denizens) don't care about it.

[Keroko]

I do think regular ammunition works, its just that normal people usually are sealed in the fuzetsu, and completely unaware of the existence of tomogara.

If we can't have human crack troops, humans could at least act as lookouts in every city, perhaps devise Denizen-sensors of some kind (would attaching an anti-Fuzetzu charm to a spy satellite allow it to spot Fuzetzus on Earth?), and then alert Flame Hazes for where to go.

Flame Haze are lone wolves, remember? Not to mention the human troops would still be affected by the disapearance of existence, forgetting a lot of info they need to give.

[KaneDragon]

Flame Haze are lone wolves, remember? Not to mention the human troops would still be affected by the disappearance of existence, forgetting a lot of info they need to give.
How so? First of all, might the charms protect against the effect of forgetting people whose existence is consumed? Since Yuji and Flame Haze aren't effected, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Secondly, how would the disappearance of random citizens affect their mission, which is essentially to phone home in the event of fuzetsu and possibly even try to snipe the Denizens themselves?

I know Flame Hazes are lone wolves, that's why they would never think to try my idea, and thus the untapped potential.

[Keroko]

How so? First of all, might the charms protect against the effect of forgetting people whose existence is consumed? Since Yuji and Flame Haze aren't effected, there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

There is. Yuji and the Flame Haze aren't human.

Secondly, how would the disappearance of random citizens affect their mission, which is essentially to phone home in the event of fuzetsu and possibly even try to snipe the Denizens themselves?

That part might work, but discovering people being eaten might be harder, as some Tomogara don't use Fuzetsu, which would make it all but impossible for normal humans to detect them.

[Ekoko]

After watching few episodes of second from the long anime free break I underwent due to many series of unfortunate events, I think its anyone's guess as to how Yuji summons a silver flame whenever he setup a Fuzetsu. Possibly because it was shown that Pheles can bind Johan's existence into the Reiji Maigo, theres no telling what other presence you can install inside the Maigo. Hence my logical reasoning is Silver is also trapped inside the Maigo along with Johan when Broken Blade casted a jizaiho of some sorts. It might mean unfortunate for Margery, Silver had been almost killed by someone else and now living a comfy life in Yuji. Does this mean more Yuji grows his power/control over it, Silver will slowly start to resurface and take over Yuji's body? Kind of reminds me of that old game Soul Calibur where the evil sword took over the swordsman's body and mind.

I'm bit confused about Jizaiho(Unrestricted Spells) as well. Can anyone simply cast it? For some reason I don't seem to see Margery cast it very often if at all lately. While we see the enemies cast it without as much raising their fingers like Pheles when she pulled a Inbelna on Shana. What can be considered a Jizaiho? Right now my deduction is Jizaiho is a spell casted over the Fuzetsu to give the user a field advantage or raise their own attributes within the space of Fuzetsu, though this would contradict somewhere since we see Margery using a Jizaiho on Hecate chan when she's playing with sparrows in school grounds. Is it safe to say anything out of the ordinary like releasing a fire ball from a sword be considered a unrestricted spell? And lastly What is so unrestricted about Jizaiho? On same context can Yuji's silver flame be considered a Jizaiho of sorts? I see many other people casting Fuzetsu yet I don't see flames so vividly blazing from the ground like Yuji's/Silver's (In Margery's past). Nvm watched episode 8 and found out from Shana and Alastor's dialogue (Yuji is ready to cast Jizaiho -> Fuzetsu )

Margery's Past

I'm too confused to begin. Basicly she's after the Silver flame man in armor. Other than killing off her henchmen and staring at her with alot of eyes, did he do anything else to contribute more hate than he's worth? And how could such a dangerous villain simply leave his potential angel of vengence live to tell the experience(Or not tell)? I don't mind being spoiled considering I can't find the novels anywhere in nz (At least not a english one).

Does anyone have a cropped pic of Shana's predecessor to hold the Crimson eye/hair slayer title? I can't seem to remember which episode she was briefly seen and wanted to compare her with Pheles even though we all know Pheles is a totally different person ^^

[serenade_beta]

Margery's Past

I'm too confused to begin. Basicly she's after the Silver flame man in armor. Other than killing off her henchmen and staring at her with alot of eyes, did he do anything else to contribute more hate than he's worth? And how could such a dangerous villain simply leave his potential angel of vengence live to tell the experience(Or not tell)? I don't mind being spoiled considering I can't find the novels anywhere in nz (At least not a english one).

I haven't read too many of the novels, but I can at least say things I know.
Silver didn't kill her henchmen. Silver killed the people she was going to kill. She must have hated them a lot and wanted to kill them, but suddenly Silver popped up and took her prey.

[cnnydz]

Unrestricted Spells is something that converts POE into.. well anything. it is a kind of POE manipulation that causes unnatural phenomenons.

margery was forced into prostitution, and she vowed to kill the man who sold her and any men that she had to serve. just then silver came and killed her first guest and the people who sold her.

[Ekoko]

Then let me get this straight... the man in armour = Mergery's Savior?

[Kinny Riddle]

I meant to mention this entry, but somehow I got lazy.

Unrestricted Spell - Jizaishiki 自在式 or Jizaihou 自在法

Derived from the Buddhist term "Jizai" 自在, meaning becoming unbound by the ways of the mortal world upon reaching enlightenment. (If you have any Buddhist friends, ask him for a better explanation. )

Anyway, Unrestricted Spells are basically the magic of the Shana-verse, and the PoE acts as the MP. It can be used by Flame Hazes and Crimson Lords/Denizens alike for their various purposes, such as in battle, functioning of gizmos or Hougus, etc.

Different Flame Hazes and Denizens have various proficiency with Unrestricted Spells. Margery Daw is known among most as one of the few experts in Unrestricted Spells, whereas Shana relies more on her blade, wits, agility and physical "brute" force.


Outlaw

For centuries Flame Hazes have been loners, however, there comes time when they might need to exchange information. Hence certain Flame Hazes decide to settle down and set up a sort of outpost called "Outlaws". These "Outlaws" are generally disguised as pubs or churches or any public gathering place, and are usually kept hidden from regular humans and Denizens.


Humanoid Denizens

In the past, Crimson Lords and Denizens openly devour humans, and they openly manifest themselves the form of all sorts of monstrous forms, leading to various human legends and myths. As human civilization was primitive back then, these Lords and Denizens generally get away with it.

In the past 400 years, as human civilization advanced at a rapid pace, it became more and more difficult for Denizens to appear as something monstrous and not attract widespread attention, hence more and more Denizens took on human form and devoured humans in a more clandestine way.

The invention of the Fuuzetsu around the 30 Years War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_years_war) helped eased the Denizens transition in their way of life considerably.

[Ekoko]

We see people using Unrestricted Spells time and again whether that be tomogara or flame haze. Reflecting on episode 13 with Pheles, I've noticed she didnt emit much of that blue jizaihou line of signs which is apparent in fuzetsu and margery's spells. Also prolonged use of her spells obviously had effects on her gradually weakening her. I'm not too certain but

Someone mentioned Yuji recharge Pheles' PoE with his own pool of PoE.

If above was true that would mean Tomogara have limited supply before they must consume humans again to recharge right?

What about Flame Haze? Fuzetsu and other spells would take out the PoE within the spell caster aka Flame Haze right? But how come we don't see Flame Hazes actively going out there to feed on humans? Can they simply recharge their PoE through other means like consuming melon breads, cup noodles or booze? Or is there a hidden side to Shana and her Flame Haze friends we are being kept in dark about?

So I get it now, Margery was sold off to prostitution and she was "Violated" to say the least by her first customer. Silver guy comes and wipes out everyone except Margery. Is it implied he violated her? or is there something else Margery hates him so much for other than the fact he beat her to the race of killing everyone that she wanted to kill. I'm trying to understand why she might be feeling so much obliged to find him and kill him if the only thing he did was to come into the establishment, sets up fuzetsu (with silver flames), kills off people (Margery's enemies), then proceed to stare at her from many angles with his freakishly many eyes in purple atmosphere possibly jizaihou casted within the fuzetsu. There must be some particular reason than purely out of disatisfaction of being saved by a monster. Possibly rape though I'm not sure if Shana series will go that far. Care to shed some more light on this if you can? I get the feeling novel readers have more theories about it based on the novel they've read which I have no access to.

Oh and speaking of which, can you get a english version of the novel? or is that asking abit too much? lol.

[KaneDragon]

What about Flame Haze? Fuzetsu and other spells would take out the PoE within the spell caster aka Flame Haze right? But how come we don't see Flame Hazes actively going out there to feed on humans? Can they simply recharge their PoE through other means like consuming melon breads, cup noodles or booze? Or is there a hidden side to Shana and her Flame Haze friends we are being kept in dark about?
It doesn't seem to be an issue for them. Denizens need PoE because they're forcibly manifesting themselves directly, where as the Lords of flame hazes use humans, who already have an established existence in the world, as channels. So since they don't have to spend energy maintaining a physical form, they probably just have a lot to spare (as most of their power is sealed away anyway), and it recharges on its own. Is that right?

If Flame Hazes could use their power so freely, Shana wouldn't have needed to use a human's existence to fix the damage in the classroom in the first arc. So there's something else here...

[DX HBK]

I wonder how Flame Haze avoid going financially broke. Does the Outlaw also function as a bank of sorts?

[Kinny Riddle]

If above was true that would mean Tomogara have limited supply before they must consume humans again to recharge right?

That would be correct.


What about Flame Haze? Fuzetsu and other spells would take out the PoE within the spell caster aka Flame Haze right? But how come we don't see Flame Hazes actively going out there to feed on humans? Can they simply recharge their PoE through other means like consuming melon breads, cup noodles or booze? Or is there a hidden side to Shana and her Flame Haze friends we are being kept in dark about?

Flame Haze are humans to begin with, so they don't "feed" on them. Though to replenish PoE needed to cast spells and power their abilities granted to them by the contracted Crimson Lord, they would need to somehow find ways.

As most Flame Hazes tend to be aloof and indifferent to "Muggles", technically it is possible that they'll just simply kill a human to consume their PoE, but that would defeat their purpose.

So more practically, they would simply find any Torches that are nearby, the more the merrier. As can be seen by Margery powering her spell with Torches in the movie. Though not too much as to upset the balance, just enough would do.

I wonder how Flame Haze avoid going financially broke. Does the Outlaw also function as a bank of sorts?

The novels provide some form of explanation here. To put it simply, Flame Haze are incapable of making money. :heh:

Most of the time, they simply resort to stealing, since most of the time, no human can catch them anyway.

The "Outlaws" merely functions as a meeting point and nothing more. Though there are some Flame Haze with some form of banking knowledge when they were still mortal and has put it to good use.

(Denizens don't even bother, they just devour rather than pay. :heh: )

[cnnydz]

a flame haze's POE is fixed on the arrival of the guze no ou, their POE will always return to the fixed level after a while.

[DX HBK]

a flame haze's POE is fixed on the arrival of the guze no ou, their POE will always return to the fixed level after a while.

So they recharge gradually... nice to know that.

With all the element forces in the Guze going after power of existence, there might be a lot of null existence accumulating in the world.

[Kinny Riddle]

So they recharge gradually... nice to know that.

With all the element forces in the Guze going after power of existence, there might be a lot of null existence accumulating in the world.
This is where Flame Hazes known as Tuners come in and try to "tune" the reality back to normal in places that were hardly hit by the eternal battle between Denizens and Flame Hazes. Much like how a piano tuner regularly tunes a piano so that it doesn't go out of key.

[DX HBK]

This is where Flame Hazes known as Tuners come in and try to "tune" the reality back to normal in places that were hardly hit by the eternal battle between Denizens and Flame Hazes. Much like how a piano tuner regularly tunes a piano so that it doesn't go out of key.

So Tuners restore a form of order in places that have been chaotically disrupted...

And here I was, thinking that a Guze no Tomogara could try to use any distortion to his or her advantage by drawing upon "null existence" as a substitute to power of existence since the Guze elements seems to break most of the laws of the world constantly, thus allowing what is impossible and unheard of to be within accomplishment.

[lua thien]

If we can't have human crack troops, humans could at least act as lookouts in every city, perhaps devise Denizen-sensors of some kind (would attaching an anti-Fuzetzu charm to a spy satellite allow it to spot Fuzetzus on Earth?), and then alert Flame Hazes for where to go.

Not a bad thought but Flame Haze and Guze-related forces both prefer to keep this war in secrecy.

Of course, you could have a number of humans act as a third player and began some sort of "holy war" against both the Flame Haze side and the Guze no Tomogara side.




And here I was, thinking that a Guze no Tomogara could try to use any distortion to his or her advantage by drawing upon "null existence" as a substitute to power of existence since the Guze elements seems to break most of the laws of the world constantly, thus allowing what is impossible and unheard of to be within accomplishment.

Quite the SC and SR fanatic, aren't you?

Still, the constant violation of the world's natural laws by the Guze is somewhat true.

[KaneDragon]

Is there any power requirement for a Denizen to sponsor a Flame Haze? Could a very weak Denizen decide to join such a partnership for the lulz and simple enjoyment of a concrete existence in this world (and in exchange, giving the human the standard magic (albeit weak) and immortality)? It'd be a (technically) Flame Haze that cared nothing for hunting rouge Denizens (too dangerous, human/Denizen halves too weak) but rather used their power for mundane, selfish reasons.

I like the idea of using FH powers to do mundane/cool things. ^^

Rami is a step in the right direction, but I'm counting him as just a Denizen, since he's the one walking around, and it's not the same deal.

[Kinny Riddle]

Is there any power requirement for a Denizen to sponsor a Flame Haze?

In a word, yes. Every Denizen that has contracted with a Flame Haze is of Crimson Lord class.

Could a very weak Denizen decide to join such a partnership for the lulz and simple enjoyment of a concrete existence in this world (and in exchange, giving the human the standard magic (albeit weak) and immortality)?

Firstly, the more senior Crimson Lords would not let them, as they're too weak, and it'll be a waste of their resources in this eternal war.

In which case, these curious Denizens have two choices:

1. Behave themselves and stay in the Crimson World until they are "mature", "senior" and strong enough to make a contract with a Flame Haze.

2. Go down the path of the Dark Side and start consuming humans away.

See my "Brief History" below for more.

It'd be a (technically) Flame Haze that cared nothing for hunting rouge Denizens (too dangerous, human/Denizen halves too weak) but rather used their power for mundane, selfish reasons.

I like the idea of using FH powers to do mundane/cool things. ^^

That is a major reason why Crimson Lord only choose avengers, since avengers more willing and committed to the cause of hunting harmful Denizens, and it is also a reason why you'll never be a Flame Haze. :cool:

The way Shana was raised is unorthodox amongst Flame Hazes.


Rami is a step in the right direction, but I'm counting him as just a Denizen, since he's the one walking around, and it's not the same deal.


First, Rami is actually a "she", and a very cute one at that.

Like other curious Denizens, she went down the path of the "Dark Side" and consumed humans to take form.

She once fell in love with a human, but he got mad at her when he found out she consumes humans. Thinking she was rejected, she wandered aimlessly for a while, until she got captured for her abilities.

She is special in that she has the ability to cast all sorts of Unrestricted Spells, which makes her coveted by many Denizen factions. Such spells include the all important Fuuzetsu.

While being used as a tool by a certain Denizen faction, she came across Shana's predecessor Mathilda, who informed her that the human she loved still thinks about her. He has even drawn a painting of her, however, he has since passed away due to old age, and the painting has been lost.

Grieved by her procrastination, she decided to help Mathilda and Alastor defeat the Crimson Lord that held her captive, in return for sparing her life, so that she could embark on a journey to conjure a spell to retrieve the painting that her love has drawn for her.

In order to conjure such a spell, a large amount of PoE is required. Feeling indebted to Alastor for his compassion and mercy, she promises never to consume humans, and so she resides in the Torch of an old man and only collects PoE from near-extinguished Torches.

Her journey continues to this day.



Brief history of Denizens in our world

Since time immemorial, Denizens found that they share some sort of resonance with humans, who reside on the "other side" of the dimensional barrier, they were very curious and intrigued about these humans, and the emotions that they emit.

In order to experience such emotions, the Denizens eventually devised a way for them to cross the barrier. By extracting PoE from the humans themselves.

The Denizens poured in, and they enjoyed their newfound senses.

In the beginning, there was still a two-way traffic between the Crimson World and our world. This is where problems begin to surface.

Some of the Denizens noticed that this barrier that they were crossing was beginning to get more and more unstable, making the journey more and more hazardous and deadly.

Eventually, they understood that it is their unrestricted extraction of PoE in our world that is causing this barrier to become unstable, and would one day collapse and create havoc in both the Crimson World and our world.

Disturbed by what they have heard, these Denizens and those that have stayed behind in the Crimson World decide it's time to stop their brethren in our world from causing any more abuse. If they cannot be persuaded, then they must be destroyed. Though they have a few problems.

First, as the barrier is now extremely dangerous to cross, these Denizens agreed that only those with Crimson Lord-class or above who are powerful enough to survive the volatile barrier should make the journey to stop their brethren on the other side.

Though time and time again, there were some Denizens who could not resist their curiousity and temptation that our world has to offer, and took the risk to cross the barrier without aid.

Second, these Crimson Lords would need a physical form once they're on the other side. If they consumed PoE from humans, they would be defeating the whole purpose of their journey, which is to make sure the barrier does not collapse and hence maintain balance.

So they decide to "lend" their existence to certain humans who could resonate with them. They especially seek out those who have been aggrieved by Denizens. These avengers form a contract with these Crimson Lords, acting as the haze for their vigorous flames, hence the term "Flame Haze".

For those Crimson Lords whose human host has been killed, they have two choices:

1. Return to the Crimson World, this means going through the barrier in a weakened state
2. Forcefully manifest with the little PoE they carry with them and go out in a blaze of glory.

Option 1 is reserved for those who intend to return to fight another day, and though quite hazardous, is still better than option 2, which is for those who became attached to their human host and chose to avenge their deaths before dying themselves.

There is also a third option, which is the basis for volume 10. I'll leave you guys to guess what it is. :cool:

[cnnydz]

There is also a third option, which is the basis for volume 10. I'll leave you guys to guess what it is. :cool:

Marchosias said in season I that he would go down the third route if anyone hurt margery didn't he.

[KaneDragon]

In a word, yes. Every Denizen that has contracted with a Flame Haze is of Crimson Lord class.

Firstly, the more senior Crimson Lords would not let them, as they're too weak, and it'll be a waste of their resources in this eternal war.
But that doesn't quite follow. How would the senior Lords prevent lesser Denizens from, er, illegally crossing the border? :heh: A dimensional border can't be an easy thing to watch... can it? And where're the wasted resources? They wouldn't be consuming any humans... or is that they'd be an annoying distraction?

[Kinny Riddle]

But that doesn't quite follow. How would the senior Lords prevent lesser Denizens from, er, illegally crossing the border? :heh: A dimensional border can't be an easy thing to watch... can it? And where're the wasted resources? They wouldn't be consuming any humans... or is that they'd be an annoying distraction?
I just answered your question in the "Brief History" segment I wrote.

They can't stop these curious Denizens from going to the Dark Side and crossing the barrier. Nobody said they can be stopped, but their chance of surviving the volatile barrier is at best 50/50.

And even if they do cross the border, they have these choices

1. Form a contract with a human being and interact in the world through a Flame Haze - Resource wasted because they're not strong enough

2. Consume humans right away and live out their desires - Resource wasted for they're lost to the Dark Side

3. Go back to the Crimson World and risk the volatile barrier again - Resource wasted for chances of surviving the barrier is already slim to begin with

4. Run out of PoE and die - Nuff' said

Rami went through option 2, but then resided in a Torch. She is the exception rather than the rule.

And Pheles had Johann, meaning there was no need for her to consume humans. Though what happens to her next without Johann is a big question needing to be answered by Takahashi.

[Key Board]

Losing your existence by fading away means that people will not remember you,

Yet, it can not undo what you have done so far in life. Ie: having children, inventing something significant, accomplishing something that changed history.

This logical conflict between denial and proof of existence proves one thing for me.

The author has never taken a computer programming class before

[Kinny Riddle]

Losing your existence by fading away means that people will not remember you,

Yet, it can not undo what you have done so far in life. Ie: having children, inventing something significant, accomplishing something that changed history.

This logical conflict between denial and proof of existence proves one thing for me.

The author has never taken a computer programming class before
LOL, that's true. Then again, Denizens don't really follow the laws of physics anyway, so perhaps Takahashi can get away with it to some extent.

Since I'm at it, might as well bump this thread back up, does anyone have any new questions they like to ask? :cool:

[cnnydz]

Yet, it can not undo what you have done so far in life. Ie: having children, inventing something significant, accomplishing something that changed history.



this is how consuming POE disrupt the balance of the world (these contradictions won't just go away). otherwise the guze no ou wouldn't need to hunt down their own people.

[Key Board]

question:

why do flame hazes, tomogara and torches remember those that have faded away?

how about hougu bearing humans like Eita and Keisaku?

[Kinny Riddle]

question:

why do flame hazes, tomogara and torches remember those that have faded away?

The most simple answer would be that they're not human, and are not bound by the laws of our physics, but the laws of the Crimson World. The same goes for specific Mystes like Yuji and Johann.

Flame Hazes ceased being "human" the moment they made the contract with their Crimson Lords.


how about hougu bearing humans like Eita and Keisaku?

I'm not sure about humans that come into contact with Flame Hazes and Denizens, like Yoshida, Satou and Tanaka. They seem to remember Fumina, but Fumina is strictly not a Torch but a clone of Hecate, not to mention that the whole Fumina ordeal is anime original.

Otherwise, I've not yet seen any solid cases of them remembering humans that have faded away (like the original Hirai Yukari) yet to make any conclusive answers.

[Malintex_Terek]

I'm not sure about humans that come into contact with Flame Hazes and Denizens, like Yoshida, Satou and Tanaka. They seem to remember Fumina, but Fumina is strictly not a Torch but a clone of Hecate, not to mention that the whole Fumina ordeal is anime original.

My hypothesis is that people "forgetting" existence is just forced rationalization to explain the loss, but if enough people disappear no amount of rationalization can account for the disappearance. Even under the most persuasion, it would be tough enough to get someone to forget he/she had a family; to get him/her to forget he/she lived in a city is a whole lot harder, especially since they'll be wondering about what should be and realizing they exist in what is.

Satou, Tanaka an Yoshida can't rationalize anymore because they understand "the truth of the world". In binary terms, if the world put everyone on the planet with a variable equal to zero under a hypnosis to convince them someone doesn't exist, those three have their variable set to "one"; they're unaffected by whatever spell or system affects memory but they're still part of said system, unlike Flame Haze that aren't even recognized. Akin to "Torches" in a sense, I guess.

[tntrulez]

Unrestricted Spells is something that converts POE into.. well anything. it is a kind of POE manipulation that causes unnatural phenomenons.

margery was forced into prostitution, and she vowed to kill the man who sold her and any men that she had to serve. just then silver came and killed her first guest and the people who sold her.

That is the lamest reason I have heard for revenge. Margery must not be right in the head. Probably took a few blows to her head in the process of being forced into prostitution.

A question now, anyone know why magic spells are called Unrestricted Spell instead of just Spell?

In the anime they show how the Reiji Maigo can be manipulated to gain infinite energy. Where is that energy coming from? If the Reiji Maigo can restore used energy, can the Reiji Maigo be adjusted to restore the energy every nanosecond of the 24 hours period, thereby granting its owner unlimited energy? It seems possible since they show it happening once before, albeit in an uncontrolled outburst.

[Kinny Riddle]

A question now, anyone know why magic spells are called Unrestricted Spell instead of just Spell?

Dunno. Mostly for artistic license, as how resurrection potions in Final Fantasy are called Phoenix Downs. I'm guessing it's mostly to tie-in with the Buddhism-like philosophical take on the main theme of existence. See my entry in this thread earlier for reference.

In the anime they show how the Reiji Maigo can be manipulated to gain infinite energy. Where is that energy coming from? If the Reiji Maigo can restore used energy, can the Reiji Maigo be adjusted to restore the energy every nanosecond of the 24 hours period, thereby granting its owner unlimited energy? It seems possible since they show it happening once before, albeit in an uncontrolled outburst.

By "energy" you mean PoE right? That's the whole mystery and driving force of the whole series. A "Macguffin" plot device, if you will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macguffin

Takahashi never explicitly explained how the Reiji Maigo really works, if everyone understood how it works, they would be making their own instead of trying to consume humans or get Yuji. Just like how they never explained how the Holy Grail makes one immortal or heals wounds in Indiana Jones.

[RiXeD]

A question now, anyone know why magic spells are called Unrestricted Spell instead of just Spell?

Because the effect of the spell can be just about whatever you want it to be. As long as you have sufficient PoE, you can make or do anything without restrictions, thus Unrestricted Spell.

[chamelean75]

So, the ring that Yuji wears to block flames. How exactly has that hougu helped him? In the anime season II, it doesn't seem to have blocked anything.

Also, seeing that Shana isn't a human anymore, can she technically actually have a baby????

[KaneDragon]

Also, seeing that Shana isn't a human anymore, can she technically actually have a baby????

Not technically human, I suppose, but Flame Haze still seem human enough (at least physically) in more mundane ways (as in, they still bleed and whatnot), so I don't see why not. Shame she's stuck as a loli, though.

[HayashiTakara]

Eternal Loli sex with Shana, now thats hot... lmao..

[alvinkhorfire]

Shame she's stuck as a loli, though.

What is wrong with that? She has eternal youth. She can't grow old. She will always be cute as she is now.

[KaneDragon]

What is wrong with that? She has eternal youth. She can't grow old. She will always be cute as she is now.
Yeah, I know. Eternal youth is sweet. Cute is good.

However, I was speaking from Yuji's (her partner's) point of view, where a more developed Shana would be preferable. A few more years is all I ask. :p

[ZingFreelancer]

This is how I see the concept of PoE. Correct me if I am wrong please.

Every leaving being have an existence, they are existing in this world. Its like a ticket to cinema, if you don't have a ticket you cant get in to see a movie.
So every human being have an existence in our world, a place that is reserved to them.
But Denizens don't, so when they come to our world, in order to stay they need power of existence, they also use it for various other purposes.

But I disagree with people on saying that PoE is affected by persons social connections. Lets just make an example.

If director of Toyota to be consumed by a Denizen, so would everyone forget him and Toyota wont have a director any more. The play he was filling in our world would still be there, but unfilled. So people working for Toyota start asking question: "what a hell happened?" When did we lose our director and who he was?"
We can say that this persons existence is important to this world and its disappearing would create a bigger distortion. Then if an unimportant persons consumption.

But if a Torch to be created to replace Toyota's director and later on things could be fixed up by a Tuner or maybe naturally he goes off and a new one takes and then this persons existence is not as important. So people can just forget him.


My next big question is: What if a different person is willing to give away his place of existence to some one els, like to a torch. Then a torch is no longer a remind who are doomed to disappear, but an existence once again. Will the person who was a torch but obtained some one else's existence be treated as he was that person or just obtain the right to exist?


Flame Hazes, I really refuse to believe that they are NOT human beings. As when they form a contract with they're Crimson Lords they cease existing as a human being and are reborn as a Flame Haze. So every one forget about that human as if it was a torch that burned out. But Flame Haze are still human, back to Shana is bleeding and taking damage, so does all flame hazes to.
This part is making me a bit confused.

Do any one know or can retell the novel arc?
I apologies for any spell issues, I have used spell check. Heck, thanks to spell check I had to write this post twice...

[Kinny Riddle]

This is how I see the concept of PoE. Correct me if I am wrong please.

Most of your points raised have been addressed before, but I'll try and answer again.


Every leaving being have an existence, they are existing in this world. Its like a ticket to cinema, if you don't have a ticket you cant get in to see a movie.
So every human being have an existence in our world, a place that is reserved to them.
But Denizens don't, so when they come to our world, in order to stay they need power of existence, they also use it for various other purposes.

That is about right.


But I disagree with people on saying that PoE is affected by persons social connections. Lets just make an example.

If director of Toyota to be consumed by a Denizen, so would everyone forget him and Toyota wont have a director any more. The play he was filling in our world would still be there, but unfilled. So people working for Toyota start asking question: "what a hell happened?" When did we lose our director and who he was?"
We can say that this persons existence is important to this world and its disappearing would create a bigger distortion. Then if an unimportant persons consumption.

In the ancient past, Denizens do not think about the immediate adverse impact caused after consuming their victims, which would lead to a huge distortion with people suddenly feeling alarmed at why they feel someone was here a moment ago but could not remember where, but because they disappeared too quickly, the distortion would be too quick, leading to the attention of Flame Hazes.

This is where Torches come in handy. Think of PoE like a stone statue, and a Torch an ice statue, over time, the ice statue would slowly melt away while the people slowly "adjust" to the Torch's fading existence by naturally ignoring him, over time not even realizing he's even there.

This applies even to your Toyota director. Even after he has disappeared, Toyota would still be there, occasionally people would wonder "Hmm? I wonder who founded this company? Why can't I just remember?" But they will always find some way to "rationalise" why they have forgotten about him.


But if a Torch to be created to replace Toyota's director and later on things could be fixed up by a Tuner or maybe naturally he goes off and a new one takes and then this persons existence is not as important. So people can just forget him.

And here you just answered your own question.


My next big question is: What if a different person is willing to give away his place of existence to some one els, like to a torch. Then a torch is no longer a remind who are doomed to disappear, but an existence once again. Will the person who was a torch but obtained some one else's existence be treated as he was that person or just obtain the right to exist?

You can't do that. Living beings with PoE are like solid objects, once broken, it cannot be repaired. Denizens on the other hand are like water from the sea taking a physical solid form, though because they are not exactly "solid" they constantly "leak" and thus needs replenishing constantly while humans don't.


Flame Hazes, I really refuse to believe that they are NOT human beings. As when they form a contract with they're Crimson Lords they cease existing as a human being and are reborn as a Flame Haze. So every one forget about that human as if it was a torch that burned out. But Flame Haze are still human, back to Shana is bleeding and taking damage, so does all flame hazes to.
This part is making me a bit confused.

Flame Hazes for all intents and purposes are humans, it's all the centuries of living as immortals that lead some of them to sometime have a superiority complex over normal "Muggles".

Their main purpose is to "lend" their existence to the Crimson Lord they made a contract with, in return the Crimson Lord imbues them with their power and allows them to live forever. Please see my previous entires about Flame Hazes for more.

[ZingFreelancer]

Thank you very much for the answer Kinny Riddle, I already spent about 20 hours reading forums and its NOT easy. So any link to particular part would be appreciated. With so much information floating in, it is easy to lose the track.

Another question is just a thought. But, since Denizens don't belong in our world and that why they don't have an existence and cannot exist here, so they consume existence here.

The big question is, if a human to ever travel to Guze, will the effect be reversed and a human will need to consume Denizens in order to stay in that world?

[Kinny Riddle]

Thank you very much for the answer Kinny Riddle, I already spent about 20 hours reading forums and its NOT easy. So any link to particular part would be appreciated. With so much information floating in, it is easy to lose the track.

Another question is just a thought. But, since Denizens don't belong in our world and that why they don't have an existence and cannot exist here, so they consume existence here.

The big question is, if a human to ever travel to Guze, will the effect be reversed and a human will need to consume Denizens in order to stay in that world?
That is never explained. The Crimson World is sort of a very abstract non-physical world. After somehow achieving "resonance" with humans, they began to envy the "fleshy existence" that the humans enjoy and seek to have physical bodies themselves, which began their mass migration and consumption of PoE, and the neverending war between those that consume and those that seek to maintain the balance between the two worlds.

Humans being of the less advanced race can never reach the other side, and it is unlikely that they would ever seek to, for it is beyond their understanding.

[ZingFreelancer]

I was wondering:

Shana is named after her sword, Nietono no Shana (贄殿遮那, Nietono no Shana? "Vairocana of the Offering Room") (From wikipedia) But in English translation there is no clue of Shana. SO! What does shana means in Japanese??

[CapoExecutor]

I was wondering:

Shana is named after her sword, Nietono no Shana (贄殿遮那, Nietono no Shana? "Vairocana of the Offering Room") (From wikipedia) But in English translation there is no clue of Shana. SO! What does shana means in Japanese??

The name Shana is actually of Yiddish and Gaelic origin that means "beautiful". Not sure what the Japanese meaning would be.

[Anh_Minh]

"Sword Slinging Loli".

[Kinny Riddle]

The name Shana is actually of Yiddish and Gaelic origin that means "beautiful". Not sure what the Japanese meaning would be.
No! Sorry mate, but you've got it entirely wrong! :upset:

The kanji is just incidentally pronounced the same way as your "Shana", but its origin is entirely different, as suggested by the kanji itself.

Since Takahashi Yashiro's whole concept of existence in the series is deeply influenced by Buddhism, "Nietono no Shana" is no different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vairocana

「遮那」- "Shana" is derived from one of the Buddhist deities "Vairocana" 「毘盧遮那佛」 (The "c" is pronounced as "ch", as seen in certain Slavic names)

Vairocana is also seen as the embodiment of the Buddhist concept of shunyata or Emptiness.

Suits Shana and her role quite well.

「贄殿」- "Nietono", probably roughly meaning "Holy" or "Sacred". 「殿」- "dono" is a commonly used suffix (like -san, -chan, -kun, -sama, etc) reserved for honourable or venerable people/being, for example "Hime-dono" (Princess-dono). 「贄」 - "Nie" is a quite archaic word I'm not too familiar with.

So the whole thing 「贄殿遮那」"Nietono no Shana" roughly translates to "The Holy/Venerable Shana" or something like that.

[CapoExecutor]

No! Sorry mate, but you've got it entirely wrong! :upset:

The kanji is just incidentally pronounced the same way as your "Shana", but its origin is entirely different, as suggested by the kanji itself.

Since Takahashi Yashiro's whole concept of existence in the series is deeply influenced by Buddhism, "Nietono no Shana" is no different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vairocana

「遮那」- "Shana" is derived from one of the Buddhist deities "Vairocana" 「毘盧遮那佛」 (The "c" is pronounced as "ch", as seen in certain Slavic names)



Suits Shana and her role quite well.

「贄殿」- "Nietono", probably roughly meaning "Holy" or "Sacred". 「殿」- "dono" is a commonly used suffix (like -san, -chan, -kun, -sama, etc) reserved for honourable or venerable people/being, for example "Hime-dono" (Princess-dono). 「贄」 - "Nie" is a quite archaic word I'm not too familiar with.

So the whole thing 「贄殿遮那」"Nietono no Shana" roughly translates to "The Holy/Venerable Shana" or something like that.

Well, perhaps regarding the Shana in Nietono no Shana, I was way off.

But regarding my earlier post, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shana.

Perhaps a coincidence that the name has multiple meanings in different languages.

[ZingFreelancer]

So, the Behemoth is the oldes of Guze Kings if I am not mistaking. So goes Alastore?

Wonder if any one know how to set the Guze Kings and characters from Novel/Anime in a way of when they first appear and how long they been living compared to others.

[Chained Ryu]

As I have an insatiable urge to write fanfiction for Shakugan no Shana, I thought I should get a few things cleared up so that I could do it right.


First Issue.

From reading the beginning of the thread, it seems to be that people are saying that your Power of Existence is how many people know you. This makes the least amount of sense to me out of anything in the series.

I have no idea how that could possibly relate to using unrestricted spells.

Please tell me where this is stated in Canon.

My impression of it from watching the anime was that Power of Existence is comparable to your will to live, as when Hirai (Torch) was running low on it, she became withdrawn, yet when Ike was mentioned, she would begin to respond.

Those who had a strong will to live, such as those who desired vengence above all else, would have a strong power of existence, and thus made useful Flame Hazes.

This is what I inferred from watching the show. I figured that their existence could be used for unrestricted spells becuase it was in essence, their life force. The anime seems to support this.

However, I don't get how if it is not thier life force, then if part of their existence is eaten, they die.

Please explain this to me, as well as where it is stated in canon that PoE is no more than reputation.


Second Issue.

If PoE is requiered to be used up for Unrestricted Spells, then why is it that Flame Hazes do not eventually run out and die? Margary, for example, should she have had even a large PoE, should burn through it in one battle with all the high level spells she casts.

I do not understand.

In addition, Yuji starts to run out when he uses too much, so how can they bend such a thing?

To me, it seems as if Flame Hazes are capable of generating infinite PoE for themselves - something I cannot understand.


Third Issue.

If it is a quote 'unrestricted spell' then why are they often impossible to use without a certain object?


Fourth Issue.

Why is it that a lot of characters can make things levitate for apparently no reason? The Destructive Blade's flying swords, and Wilhelmina's bandages, for example.


Fifth Issue.

Would it, in theory, be possible to have a Torch be a Flame Haze? After all, Yuji seems quite similar - in fact, he possesses all the powers of a Flame Haze by the Second Season, short of Flight, something all Tomogara and Flame Haze seem to be able to do naturally.

Due to the fact that Flame Haze never seem to run out of Power of Existence, I cannot see why making a Torch a Flame Haze would not prolong it's life indefinitly.


Sixth Issue.

Shana. She seems to defy all known attributes of a Flame Haze. Unlike Wilhelmina, she cannot levitate without her wings, unlike Margary, she uses no unrestricted spells (excluding the seal).

Even Wilhelmina uses unrestricted spells on her bandages to make them explode, but Shana seems to not have any sort of innate power whatsoever.

In fact, from what I can see so far, despite being the main character, she has the least power out of any Flame Haze introduced, except for the boy in Margary's flashback.

I just don't get it. What's with her?


Seventh Issue.

What the heck is the full story behind this Festival Snake thing I heard about. Becuase what I know makes no sense to me at all.


------------

There. What I want to know. Please respond thoroughly - I cannot base my writing off of shaky opinions, only facts.

[KaneDragon]

True novel readers might be able to answer this better, but I believe my general idea is correct:

From reading the beginning of the thread, it seems to be that people are saying that your Power of Existence is how many people know you. This makes the least amount of sense to me out of anything in the series.
Tough; deal with it. The more important you are, the more that would have to change in order to erase your existence. More free energy and what not. If that makes any more sense.

I have no idea how that could possibly relate to using unrestricted spells.
Toasters require electricity in order to make toast.

Please tell me where this is stated in Canon.
Don't know.

If PoE is requiered to be used up for Unrestricted Spells, then why is it that Flame Hazes do not eventually run out and die? In addition, Yuji starts to run out when he uses too much, so how can they bend such a thing?

To me, it seems as if Flame Hazes are capable of generating infinite PoE for themselves - something I cannot understand.

Margery powered sonic spell with torches when she first appeared. Also, they draw on the power of their contracted Lord. Or something. Yuji doesn't have a Lord. And no, FH don't have infinite PoE.

If it is a quote 'unrestricted spell' then why are they often impossible to use without a certain object?
Unrestricted in effect, apparently, not cause.

Why is it that a lot of characters can make things levitate for apparently no reason? The Destructive Blade's flying swords, and Wilhelmina's bandages, for example.
Magic. Rule Of Cool. etc...

Would it, in theory, be possible to have a Torch be a Flame Haze?
Torches have shit capacity. Yuji is a special case. In theory, I don't know.

Shana. She seems to defy all known attributes of a Flame Haze. Unlike Wilhelmina, she cannot levitate without her wings, unlike Margary, she uses no unrestricted spells (excluding the seal).

Even Wilhelmina uses unrestricted spells on her bandages to make them explode, but Shana seems to not have any sort of innate power whatsoever.

In fact, from what I can see so far, despite being the main character, she has the least power out of any Flame Haze introduced, except for the boy in Margary's flashback.

I just don't get it. What's with her?

Flame Haze all have their own fighting style. Shana has the most raw power--she's contracted with the Flame of Heaven--the god of judgment. Also, she has a lot less experience than Margery/Wilhelmina.

What the heck is the full story behind this Festival Snake thing I heard about. Becuase what I know makes no sense to me at all.
That's a novel thing that happens immediately after the events of the second anime season. Go read the entirety of the Novel thread if you want to find out the rest; this thread isn't the place for it. And it's properly "Snake of the Festival".


You need more training. :cool:

[alvinkhorfire]

Shana may have the least variety in her fighting skills, but she does have one skill no other Flame Haze can match : Tenpa Jyousai. With that alone, any tomogara in the vicinity can be wiped out.

[Chained Ryu]

If FH don't have an unlimited quantity of PoE, then why don't they run out over the course of hundreds of years of spellcasting?

[Tormenk]

I believed that was addressed in KaneDragon's earlier post, that the FH draw power from their contracted Lords, in case you missed it.

Besides, the FH are still alive and unlike Tomogaras, seemed able to generate their own PoE like the average human.

[Chained Ryu]

The drawing power - that should mean that their lord would run out after a long enough time.

Generating their own is what I essentially meant by "Infinite" - they basically have the capacity to restore whatever they have lost somehow.

Like MP in a lot of games - it regenerates infinitly over time, though you have a set amount you can use at a time.

That's what I meant by infinite - limitless restoration, not usage.

Is that it?

And where does any of this get canonically stated?

[Chained Ryu]

That makes even less sense than what I've been hearing so far, though that's probably just comprehension issues.

[KaneDragon]

Hmmm...

Think of a big rock, just lieing there in your way, its presence is unavoidable. You cant deny the fact that this rock is there, can you? The rocks existence matter to you, in a very disturbing way. But if you walk around that rock and move on, you will forget about it and even if the rock still exist, the rocks existence wont matter any more.

I am not 100% sure, but we can see at things this way.
As long as a human exist in this world and interact with it, his existence is important and power of existence is floating true him and every one he interact with. So even if a flame haze uses his/her power of existence on something, it will eventually restore with the flow.

But think of a human as of an metal spike and power of existence as electricity, metal spikes are able to lead that electricity very well, so if you make a lead of metal spikes you can lead electricity from place to place and every spike will be powered.

Don't know if this makes sense.
:heh: Ahahahaha.... YOU CAN'T DENY THE ROCK! :D

[Cosmic Eagle]

The drawing power - that should mean that their lord would run out after a long enough time.

Generating their own is what I essentially meant by "Infinite" - they basically have the capacity to restore whatever they have lost somehow.

Like MP in a lot of games - it regenerates infinitly over time, though you have a set amount you can use at a time.

That's what I meant by infinite - limitless restoration, not usage.

Is that it?

And where does any of this get canonically stated?

Maybe high end Lords can restore their own lost POE? Who knows. After all, they need Flame Haze because their own manifestation will rape reality IIRC. Or alternatively, in the course of their own taking of their Flame Haze's PoE, they did something to it so that it can regenerate after some amount of rest?

Their capacity isn't infinite for sure. Only Hecate's and maybe Alastor's and SNH's are.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Flame Hazes for all intents and purposes are humans, it's all the centuries of living as immortals that lead some of them to sometime have a superiority complex over normal "Muggles".

Their main purpose is to "lend" their existence to the Crimson Lord they made a contract with, in return the Crimson Lord imbues them with their power and allows them to live forever. Please see my previous entires about Flame Hazes for more.

Lord-possessed humans. They are so different, they might as well be a different species entirely. An example would be Space Marines from WH40K and normal humans. One is a genetically enhanced killing machine to the point where his DNA is virtually seperate from the homo sapiens gene group while the other is an everyday human.

Edit: Strange how Shana's blade is named after a Buddha while the rest of the Tomogara are named after Christian/ Western demons.....