[Jap-Manga] Claymore Statistics, Power Levels, and Theories

[khryoleoz]

The so overrated Preemtive technique, I didn't comment about it on my last post about the databooks, but just looking at the description and the users, I found a confirmation of what I've been speculating all this time in this thread, before chapter 74 arrived, with the triunphant return of Galatea.
Based on the principles of Galatea's manipulation, the reaction of Clare when she saw Galatea using her manipulation, the connection between these two techniques, and the great capability of detailed perception and analysis of Galatea's senses, I thought that the preemptive technique would be perfectly possible for Galatea to possess.
The thing is, Galatea always had the preemptive capability thanks to her senses, she is listed as one of its users among with Teresa (who mastered this technique) and Clare (who inherited it), since she was number #3 of the Org. I'm glad that my reasoning was right, after all.

Now to the technique itself, surprisingly, the greatest technique according to the Org, is not very high on the defensive aspect, as it should be at least in my opinion.
Galatea, Clare and Teresa are on the same league, I guess the capability of seeing the attack itself doesn't speak very much, it is just an alert which help its user to defend itelf against the enemies blows.
I think it's the way you act following your senses that makes it so usefull, Teresa chose to master this technique, Galatea now (unlike 7 years ago where she didn't display great preemptive senses) is basically relying on preemptive senses only.

Also, this technique works in the range of about 0% to 40% of yoki release, something that can be a drawback for both Galatea and Teresa.
Like Teresa said, sometimes the yoki is so strong, that it's not possible to properly predict and discern the blow's direction and strength. The same seems to be considered for the user of this technique.
But Clare used it against Rigardo at the range of about 30% to 40%, it seems possible in the future for both Clare and Galatea, to surpass this limitation.

Jean is on this graph too, originally I thought that it didn't make much sense for Jean being in this graph, since her technique seems to be totally based for great damages, but thinking well, she used her twisting arm technique as something like a shield in the northern campaign, so it could have a fatal defensive use.
It's not the most effective defense, indeed, but it's there in the graph.

Ophelia's Rippling Sword really has a high yoki usage, it's about 55% to 76% yoki concentrated on her right arm. A movement so fast like this could have some defensive properties.

Even Helen's streching arm technique has some defensive utilities, it can wrap and immobilize the opponents arms, and also cut them to make the enemy defenseless. It's even a bit higher in the defensive aspect compared to the Preemptive ability.

Deneve's regeneration is a purely defensive technique, it enables her to regenerate her body regardless of the great damages taken.

Miria's phantom technique is a great defensive technique, it enables her to perfectly dodge an attack using great speed and at the same time confuse and surprise the enemy with the after images, creating an oppening for a counter-attack.

Galatea's manipulation, according to the graph, is the best defensive technique when it actually works, and I have to agree, it's a perfect defense making the opponent's blows simply go off their targets without moving a muscle.
In addition, she also has preemptive detection to complement her style.

I think this graph, among with the last chapters, definitely shows how Galatea is a versatile warrior. The preemptive detection allied with the manipulation ability makes Galatea able to handle incredibly difficult situations, as the one that we are currently seeing.
She is fighting both Miata, who has the potential to surpass the truly most powerful Claymore ever, and Agatha, awakened former number #2 who we don't know the true extension of her powers, at the same time.

I think that these informations and events, speak a lot about Galatea's current level.
There's nothing overrated about the preemptive detailed yoma aura sensing ability. It remains as the most desirable ability when dealing with yoma and ABs. Yoki manipulation is an interesting and highly useful technique, but it can be defeated and strong ABs are sooner or later going to pick up on it. So its effectiveness is limited to that extent. Preemptive yoki sensing is always reliable to the extent that its user has the speed, agility, and the strength to respond to any attack.

The only time Teresa couldn't use her yoki sensing well was when fighting Priscilla. But I think it's a mistake to take Teresa and Priscilla and start making generalizations about Claymore abilities in general. These two represent the peak of the org's achievements with regard to their hybridization work. When Teresa said that Priscilla had too large a yoki that it was difficult for her to read, she was not by necessity admitting that anybody who had a large enough yoki would make it difficult for her to read. The contextual antecedent to this statement is Priscilla. Another thing is how we intereperet that statement. What Teresa does well is read the minute details of the flow of yoki. I think that in Priscilla's case, it's not that she couldn't read Priscilla's yoki but that it was so much that she could read everything all at once so that the effect was a sensory overload. She was not having a hard time finding a needle in a hay stack is she was more having a hard time finding one particular needle in a big pile of them.

Also, I really don't think that all yoki sensing is of the same type and ultimately predictive. Teresa's sensing ability has a specific descriptor that is not used when referring to Galatea's. Whether Galatea also has the ability to preemptively sense yoki is not something that has been firmly established. In the manga's silence about it, I have to assume that so far only Teresa, and by inheritance Clare, have this ability, which is what sets them apart. Galatea's sensing excels in range, which sets her apart. Her handicap forced the extension of that range so that it is even greater. But it is still qualitatively different from Teresa's which is predictive whereas Galatea's had always been used as an alternative to sight. In that respect, Galatea's sensing is greater. In terms of combat usefulness, Teresa's is still more desirable. Maybe Galatea has developed that ability. But I'd have to doubt it. ABs ooze yoki naturally. And Agatha is no Priscilla. Yet she couldn't figure out what was happening to Maita just because she was distracted. Teresa had it much tougher with the four, but then again she was just that much tougher.

[Voracious Reader]

Continuing where I left off:

Caption Alicia: Birth of the strongest warrior of all generations.
[could theoretically also mean strongest in several generations, but since that would include Teresa’s it would amount to the same thing anyway]

B-01 The twins Alicia and Beth
To increase the probability of success as far as possible the homogenization of youki and the training from an early stage were made an indispensable condition. Therefore securing infant twins constituted a necessary requirement. To secure such a rare human raw material we even took the unprecedented measure of directly negotiating the transfer of sucklings form a normal family. During the search for the raw material the negotiations with the parents certainly didn’t go smoothly, but in the end we managed to obtain Alicia and Beth who were of an among twins truly outstanding quality.
Thus the preparation of all ingredients was arranged and resuming the experiment itself became possible.

Caption Alice/Beth: The acquirement of the rare human material was fortunate.

B-02 Training program
The half youma production process was performed on the subject twins with flesh and blood from the same youma while they were infants and they were trained thoroughly from a young age.
The training time was almost exclusively divided between youki alignment and combat techniques. This did not even change when they became warriors and they almost never left their assigned districts. As a result they never thought about anything but combat and their minds developed such that they possessed almost no individual ego, but this lack of ego benefited the mind sharing that was central to the plan, and the absence of superfluous thoughts brought avoidance of any mental weakening with it. Above all it had the result that they became obedient warriors and their training progressed more favourably.

Caption shadowy conversation from volume 9: They persevered even through the harshest training.

B-03 Role sharing

We will expound on the details later, but the two of them share a mind, and during combat accomplish such a role sharing that while Alicia completely releases her youriki Beth completely restrains her youki and holds the changes in their mind in check. Thus even when the body awakens by virtue of the complete youriki release the human mind is not lost, and returning to the human state is made possible. Their black equipment that gave rise to self same name is a special measure for the transformation that comes with the bodily awakening.

Caption: Through role sharing they won’t miss sight of their combat objectives even with a complete release.

B-04 Results of being thrown into real combat
After their completion the opponents in their first real combat were the 11 above average awakened beings that were sent by Easley to the headquarters. The results were superb. Alicia on her own accomplished their annihilation within a short time. With the exhaustion of Beth, who was in charge of the mental side, after combat completion while intense still being within expectations and her avoiding any injuries thanks to Alicia who was taking care of the direct combat the obtained results were as hoped for.

caption top corner: Obtaining this result with one body is sufficient for satisfaction
caption in between: The responsibility of the part that takes care of the mind is very grave.

C Concept -------------- Structural hypothesis of awakening while preserving a human mind.
The twins became warriors on the basis of the flesh and blood of the same youma.
Thereby the complete youki alignment and the mind sharing could be realized. Below the concept of this process as well as the release and control sharing system is written down. But this subsection never leaves the field of hypothesis and many parts are unclear. For learning what is really going on within them there remains no choice but to wait for further data collection and analysis.

Caption: The successful complete youki alignment is the key

Preliminary stage Complete youki alignment

Devising a thorough youki homogenization a complete youki alignment became possible. Warriors who are skilled at youki alignment are not rare, but Alice and Beth were the first who reached complete alignment. Just like it’s possible for a warrior skilled in youki alignment to control the movement of her opponent to some degree they reached a state were they could control each other completely. One could say that complete youki alignment signifies synchronization of not just the youki but also of thoughts and actions.

Picture:
Heads: mind
Double arrow: alignment of thoughts and actions
Label on the grey cloud: complete youki alignment

Next stage Complete sharing of the mind
What lies ahead if one presses forward with complete youki alignment and increases the degree of synchronization is mind sharing. As a result of alignment training from a young age their minds fused together and whatever one of them was thinking would also appear in the thoughts of the other. If one is not afraid of stretching the point one could say that the two of them constitute one individual entity. Therefore they lack egos of their own that could hamper the alignment. To put it in another way they effectively have no impulse in their hearts but to execute what they have been trained in.
Picture:
Double arrow: mind that has fused into one
black background: mind sharing

During combat Complete youriki release entrusting the mind to the other
During combat complete mind sharing shows its true value. The one who is entrusted with fighting just releases her youriki completely, and the other one takes over and controls the mind while taking care to completely suppress her youriki. Because the one who suppresses her youki takes over the role of continuously keeping the releaser’s urge to awaken in check she retains her human heart. This makes complete awakening in body only possible. After combat completion the one who took over the mind pulls the releaser back into human form. At that time mental strength and concentration are of uttermost importance.

Picture:
left:
white background: takes over the mind and keeps on controlling
bb: complete youki suppression
head: mind
right:
wb: awakening in body only
bb: complete youriki release

◆
At the end of a long history of hardships we saw Alicia’s tentative completion. Because she is a test subject without precedent there are sill many holes in our understanding and we cannot pride ourselves with having perfected her, but one can say that at this time she is the fulfilment of our hopes. It was of great significance that when she proved her combat power by preventing the awakened attack on the headquarters she simultaneously showed her strength to the Abyssal Ones. Her introduction into the constantly shifting state of the war as a power to oppose the Abyssal Ones is greatly awaited.


---
Notes: Seishin can mean mind, soul, spirit, or all of that at once. I have translated it as mind, and effectively all references to mind here [except for kokoro= heart, which can also mean mind or soul] are translations of seishin (in the first part as well). It would be entirely possible, in fact trivial, to diffuse the ambiguity. After all there are words that mean just soul (e.g. tamasi) or just mind (slightly more difficult, you could use e.g. ishiki=consciousness). The fact that such a distinction is not made suggests that it is not thought to be important. The strict separation of mind body and soul is a western idea anyway. Alternatively pointing out you are not talking about souls would be redundant if the Organization does not believe in the existence of souls in the first place. An interpretation of seishin as just the soul seems unlikely not least because that would mean that the mind is barley mentioned and even assuming the soul is the key the mind should still be pretty important.
It is not specified whether the mind sharing is always on or has to be activated.

The word I translated as youki alignment is the same as the one I translated as youki tuning earlier when it referred to Galatea's ability. When I started with this section I felt they were not quite the same thing. Well, turns out they are. Which translation do you like better?

[Anima]

Ok first things first, That was an informative read, Varacious Reader, thanks alot!

Continuing where I left off:

Caption Alicia: Birth of the strongest of all generations.
[could theoretically also mean strongest in several generations, but since that would include Teresa’s it would amount to the same thing anyway]
Since I am a Teresa fanboy, I will not let this slide but we all know that Teresa didn't really like to tell the organization how strong she was (remember her fight against awakened Rosemary and how she lied about it). We know Teresa overwhelmed Priscilla who is stronger than the abyssal ones but with whom am I to argue? it's a report by the organization so what the heck. :p

Caption: The successful complete youki alignment is the key

Preliminary stage Complete youki alignment

Devising a thorough youki homogenization a complete youki alignment became possible. Warriors who are skilled at youki alignment are not rare, but Alice and Beth were the firs who reached complete alignment. Just like it’s possible for a warrior skilled in youki alignment to control the movement of her opponent to some degree they reached a state were they could control each other completely. One could say that complete youki alignment signifies synchronization of not just the youki but also of thoughts and actions.

Picture:
Heads: mind
Double arrow: alignment of thoughts and actions
Label on the grey cloud: complete youki alignment

Next stage Complete sharing of the mind
What lies ahead if one presses forward with complete youki alignment and increases the degree of synchronization is mind sharing. As a result of alignment training from a young age their minds fused together and whatever one of them was thinking would also appear in the thoughts of the other. If one is not afraid of stretching the point one could say that the two of them constitute one individual entity. Therefore they lack egos of their own that could hamper the alignment. To put it in another way they effectively have no impulse in their hearts but to execute what they have been trained in.
Picture:
Double arrow: mind that has fused into one
black background: mind sharing

During combat Complete youriki release entrusting the mind to the other
During combat complete mind sharing shows its true value. The one who is entrusted with fighting just releases her youriki completely, and the other one takes over and controls the mind while taking care to completely suppress her youriki. Because the one who suppresses her youki takes over the role of continuously keeping the releaser’s urge to awaken in check she retains her human heart. This makes complete awakening in body only possible. After combat completion the one who took over the mind pulls the releaser back into human form. At that time mental strength and concentration are of uttermost importance.

That is really interesting! It comes to aid the speculation of why Riful wants a yoki manipulator to do her yoki trick. But it says they need lots of training to achieve complete yoki alignment so how Riful intends to use this against Isley/Priscilla is yet to be found.

[khryoleoz]

With the exception that Teresa kept her true strength a secret, we can assume that this information from the perspective of the org is useful to the degree that they do know what they're doing and what they're talking about.

I'm wondering, what if the reason Riful is looking for a yoki manipulator is not to control someone who would be as strong as Priscilla but in order to control Priscilla.

[irvinethearcher]

Maybe Galatea has developed that ability.

She definitely posseses this abilitie according to the informations from databook II B03.

One thing about the soul link:
Riful said to Clare:
What i want is someone who excels in reading yoma energy!(Clare & Galatea)
It's not like i'm telling you to fight here.
I... have found something interesting!
...
In other words: A warrior who can manipulate yoma energy if even a little.


I asked me one thing all the time: What would happen if riful is somehow able to kill beth during a soul link with awakened alicia?


I'm wondering, what if the reason Riful is looking for a yoki manipulator is not to control someone who would be as strong as Priscilla but in order to control Priscilla.


It's possible but i doubt that because the thing has much more yoki than riful and is not so easy to control and because riful said something about "even out the balance", so i think she tries to fight pris with 2 AO's. But that's still not enought because easley will help her at the end. Hm...

[Anima]

I'm wondering, what if the reason Riful is looking for a yoki manipulator is not to control someone who would be as strong as Priscilla but in order to control Priscilla.
That is what I meant and that's why I said how would Riful control Priscilla without much training. Imagine Riful training with Priscilla for complete yoki alignment :heh:

[Siegzon Caritas]

With the exception that Teresa kept her true strength a secret, we can assume that this information from the perspective of the org is useful to the degree that they do know what they're doing and what they're talking about.

I'm wondering, what if the reason Riful is looking for a yoki manipulator is not to control someone who would be as strong as Priscilla but in order to control Priscilla.


Or to disrupt the Yoki alignment when Alicia is awakened, making her unable to resume her normal identity.

[Tempest35]

That's saying if Riful found her secret info from the Org itself. She could have found something about Priscilla's past all the same and come up with an idea. But for the Org to implant mere babies with youma flesh...damn, just how far are they willing to go for this?

But even with Alicia's godly stats, just how strong is she compared to Riful and Easley when Awakened? As she is, Alicia could have massacred Priscilla when she was still a Claymore but with Awakening, Priscilla trumps everyone. Just how strong could Priscilla had been had she not Awakened. Eventually, she would have surpassed Teresa, no doubt about that.

It's so sad it's almost laughable that even with all the work they put into Alicia and Beth - the years and years of training - even as strong as she is, she's still not in Priscilla's league. 0.o

[Anima]

But even with Alicia's godly stats, just how strong is she compared to Riful and Easley when Awakened? As she is, Alicia could have massacred Priscilla when she was still a Claymore but with Awakening, Priscilla trumps everyone. Just how strong could Priscilla had been had she not Awakened. Eventually, she would have surpassed Teresa, no doubt about that.

It's so sad it's almost laughable that even with all the work they put into Alicia and Beth - the years and years of training - even as strong as she is, she's still not in Priscilla's league. 0.o
And from where did you conclude this? You don't even know how Alicia fares against the Abyssal but judging from the past 7 year encounter when Alicia said she could do 50% damage to Riful than die and how her handler told her to intensify the training, I don't doubt that Alicia can easily match the Abyssals now according to Rubul said when Alicia slaughtered those 11 ABs. My point is, we don't even know if Alicia's current power allows her to surpass the abysals putting her in league with Priscilla or not so it's not easy to simply pass a judgment as that.

[chibamonster]

I hope we all added to Voracious Reader's reputation for the awesome translation job! I have a translation question about the data book; does it say how much input Yagi had to the compilation? Maybe someone answered this before and I just missed it.

It sure makes me sad for Alicia and Beth not having a personality though. They really might just be puppets. No matter how powerful Alicia is the organization has to seriously contemplate the danger of using them because Beth does seem vulnerable. While it might not be a danger to Alicia, the org would not want another Luciella incident. Especially if Beth got terrified and released her youki as well and suddenly both completely awakened. Even if Alicia is at Priscilla's level or higher she would have to deal with Priscilla AND Isley.

I am still really curious how Miata has the ability to aim for number one right now. Some one put the idea that Alicia and Beth are currently not listed as number one and two but instead hanging around until they are absolutely needed. If that is the case then I'm not extremely worried about Miata but if they are saying she is more powerful than Alicia I'm getting a little itchy about her role in the future.

[irvinethearcher]

During combat Complete youriki release entrusting the mind to the other
During combat complete mind sharing shows its true value. The one who is entrusted with fighting just releases her youriki completely, and the other one takes over and controls the mind while taking care to completely suppress her youriki. Because the one who suppresses her youki takes over the role of continuously keeping the releaser’s urge to awaken in check she retains her human heart. This makes complete awakening in body only possible. After combat completion the one who took over the mind pulls the releaser back into human form. At that time mental strength and concentration are of uttermost importance.


Speculation:
She intended to fight alicia and during this fight she needs claymore who have to weaken the soullink. Alicia is than like a puppet without strings. Now Riful only have to kill beth, so there is a new AO. I think this is the first step and the most probable. The second step is more speculation than the first: With the help of yoki manips like clare/galatea she will be able to use alicia like a puppet against her enemies which are less talented in this matter.

[khryoleoz]

That's saying if Riful found her secret info from the Org itself. She could have found something about Priscilla's past all the same and come up with an idea. But for the Org to implant mere babies with youma flesh...damn, just how far are they willing to go for this?

But even with Alicia's godly stats, just how strong is she compared to Riful and Easley when Awakened? As she is, Alicia could have massacred Priscilla when she was still a Claymore but with Awakening, Priscilla trumps everyone. Just how strong could Priscilla had been had she not Awakened. Eventually, she would have surpassed Teresa, no doubt about that.

It's so sad it's almost laughable that even with all the work they put into Alicia and Beth - the years and years of training - even as strong as she is, she's still not in Priscilla's league. 0.o
I think that that is what makes Alicia the strongest of the number 1s, because she is the first and so far only Claymore who can release her potential and whose combat effectiveness is so finely tuned. But against Teresa and Priscilla's raw power, most of which had been in latent states, I would have to doubt that Alicia is anywhere close, even if she was close to or even slightly better than the Abyssals.

[Anima]

I think that that is what makes Alicia the strongest of the number 1s, because she is the first and so far only Claymore who can release her potential and whose combat effectiveness is so finely tuned. But against Teresa and Priscilla's raw power, most of which had been in latent states, I would have to doubt that Alicia is anywhere close, even if she was close to or even slightly better than the Abyssals.
Yet again, including myself in my last post, we are passing judgment with no evidence. We are yet to see how Alicia would fare against the abyssals to judge her powers.

[Tempest35]

That's not passing judgment - neither one of us said anything like that in our replies. We only need a certain amount of evidence to make conjectures. Full information on Alicia's capabilities and power won't be revealed for a while anyway so 'passing judgement' is rather impossible to do I think. :heh:

As for judging her powers, Riful had Duff help her with her group, Alicia took hers on by herself. She's rather small for a high-powered Awakened One but she did the job easily. At this stage, I think that it's safe to say that neither Isley nor Riful will fight Alicia by themselves willingly because now she is capable of dealing damage to them on the same level. If they fight her, it will cost them - that's the message that the Org wants to put out to the remaining two by creating Alicia. In this way, the stalemate of three is 'preserved', or until Isley gets bored again.

[Fate_Archer]

It has to be the rain. Agatha does like blood showers after all.

Very unlikely I guess. Up till now, no awakened being has demonstrated elemental powers, magic or anything related to it seems to not be included in the mechanics of the Claymore world.

There's nothing overrated about the preemptive detailed yoma aura sensing ability. It remains as the most desirable ability when dealing with yoma and ABs.

Well, the Organization considers this technique the best technique a Claymore can have, this statement sounds exactly as an overrated opinion.

Yoki manipulation is an interesting and highly useful technique, but it can be defeated and strong ABs are sooner or later going to pick up on it. So its effectiveness is limited to that extent. Preemptive yoki sensing is always reliable to the extent that its user has the speed, agility, and the strength to respond to any attack.

Not only that, you're forgetting the most primordial condition: the opponent's yoki.
Depending on that, the yoki reading will not be fast or effective enough to enable its user all the anticipation and reaction.
Too high or even too low yoki (at least for Teresa) from the opponent may difficult the reading.
If you can't see and discern the flow fast enough, then there is no difference between this and fighting relying on its own eyes.

So, like the yoki manipulation itself, even the effectiveness of the preemptive technique depends on the opponent at a certain extent.

The only time Teresa couldn't use her yoki sensing well was when fighting Priscilla.

Yeah, she had problems with both low yoki level (beginning of the fight) and high yoki level (led to a dangerous cut on her forehead).

But I think it's a mistake to take Teresa and Priscilla and start making generalizations about Claymore abilities in general.

I can't see why.
We are considering factors that would have influence and be valid in any Claymore fight, like high levels of yoki, low levels of yoki, skills, stats, techniques, techniques that even weren't lost when its former users died, and many other factors.
The warriors found on the generation right after Teresa's and Prisiclla's are very comparable to them, in fact, if we put raw power in the balance (just considering the top #5, we know almost nothing about the 77th generation aside from that), the most powerful generation is 78th (Clare's and Raphaella's one).
And even better, most of the strong warriors of this generation are still alive, so they can evolve and become even more strong.

These two represent the peak of the org's achievements with regard to their hybridization work.

Actually, the peak of the achievements regarding the Org's hybridization is (are) definitely Alicia and Beth.
Not only because all the work that the Org put on them, all the training to make the Soul Link process possible, their level in the stats book speaks for itself.
They had the special training that no other Claymore could have, it's now guaranteed that they had combat training, so yeah, they fight. Not only that, they had been fighting in their whole lifes.
Their level is higher than both Priscilla's (Claymore form) and Teresa's.

Next thing you would probably argue about is the possibility of Teresa hiding her true powers or true potential.

Orsay, in Teresa of the Faint Smile page 12 (volume pag 83):

Orsay: "So, she's know as Teresa of the faint smile... the strongest woman among those called Claymores."
Orsay: "!"
Orsay: "Heh, maybe not..."
Orsay: "... the strongest woman."
Orsay: "Rather, the strongest creature."

I'm sorry, but it's not like they really had no idea about Teresa's powers.
Even so, they underestimated her, I know, they were confident with their new power source, Priscilla, that proved to be too unstable. Don't need to get in more details, that's really not the matter in this discussion.
In Teresa's case, her stats are pretty accurate in my opinion.

Anyway, it's not like Teresa and Priscilla are the twin Goddesses of Claymore (Ok, Teresa's name belongs to a Goddess :p), currently there are strong warriors that can be a match or more than a match to what these two were.

When Teresa said that Priscilla had too large a yoki that it was difficult for her to read, she was not by necessity admitting that anybody who had a large enough yoki would make it difficult for her to read. The contextual antecedent to this statement is Priscilla.

Again, I can't see why. If one may achieve a level of yoki high enough to cause as you said, a sensory overload, then it would cause serious trouble for Teresa to read.
Priscilla's yoki is not exactly Teresa's "magic bullet". Priscilla is indeed the kind of warrior suited to fight against Teresa, she's skilled, she has the suppression technique to difficult Teresa's yoki reading, and in high releases, her level is high enough to again confuse Teresa's yoki sensing technique.
But currently, there are serious candidates for this or even greater levels of yoki.

Another thing is how we intereperet that statement. What Teresa does well is read the minute details of the flow of yoki. I think that in Priscilla's case, it's not that she couldn't read Priscilla's yoki but that it was so much that she could read everything all at once so that the effect was a sensory overload. She was not having a hard time finding a needle in a hay stack is she was more having a hard time finding one particular needle in a big pile of them.

Yeah, it's very close to what you described, it's like overloading her senses, she may feel the flow and have a distorted idea of the attack's speed and direction, but timing is the key for this technique, if she can't make an effective and in time reading, then the attack may hit her before she could completely realize it.
Like the time Priscilla cut Teresa's forehead, that attack could very well have killed Teresa, Teresa was fast enough to repel that attack in time, but the perception of Priscilla's incoming attack happened too late, almost really too late for her.
A really high release will make yoki goes out of every part of ones body, so reading and discerning exactly from where the attack is coming and with what speed it's coming, are the great challenges when dealing with this problem.

Also, I really don't think that all yoki sensing is of the same type and ultimately predictive.

I'm not sure about this issue, but we can distinguish two distinct types. It's possible for them to relate to each other somehow.

When a Claymore displays great abilities in the yoki sensing department, it may be in two types:


Deep, minuscule, detailed detection and perception
This type leads to the preemptive detection technique. It enables its user to read even the most minuscule movements and oscillations of the yoki flow.

Ex: Teresa, Clare, Galatea, Nina (debatable)


Wider range of detections and perception
The kind of yoki perception normally found in the eye of the Org, enables its user to detect and many times thoroughly describe Claymores and awakened beings from great distances.

Ex: Galatea, Tabatha, Lune, Clare (debatable)


I'm still not sure on how these two qualities relate with each other, maybe Claymores with great ranges of perception possess the innate capability of the deeper reading, it makes sense considering that some of the ones that possess wider range indeed have the deeper perception, and the closest you are from the target you're reading, the clearer the reading will be.
Whether this is really true or not, it seems to have its own exceptions, we couldn't see one instance where Teresa showed the capability of long range readings.

Galatea on the other hand, showed amazing skills on both types.

Teresa's sensing ability has a specific descriptor that is not used when referring to Galatea's. Whether Galatea also has the ability to preemptively sense yoki is not something that has been firmly established. In the manga's silence about it, I have to assume that so far only Teresa, and by inheritance Clare, have this ability, which is what sets them apart. Galatea's sensing excels in range, which sets her apart.

You're referring to the deep, detailed perception, the one that is very useful and as you say, desirable in combat.
It's been hinted in the current chapters where Galatea is currently displaying the skill. If this evidence is still silent for you, data book II, that was released even before chapter 74, firmly states that Galatea already possessed this technique.

This descriptor is the capability of deep, detailed reading of the yoki flow, that's what enables the prediction of the yoki flow and subsequently the preemptive act.
If one possess this descriptor, the capability of detailed reading, then the preemptive technique is possible to achieve.

Her handicap forced the extension of that range so that it is even greater. But it is still qualitatively different from Teresa's which is predictive whereas Galatea's had always been used as an alternative to sight. In that respect, Galatea's sensing is greater. [...] Maybe Galatea has developed that ability. But I'd have to doubt it.

About her current condition, everything that was mentioned and can be concluded is purely related to an increase of detail, if that is really possible for a yoki sensitive like Galatea whose sensing abilities already were amazingly extreme.
It wasn't mentioned if her range increased yet (probably has).
Her senses became even more detailed to the extent of detecting Claymores on suppressant pills coming from far away.
As she said, she now can sense things like she never did before.
I would say that she is at the extreme with what regard yoki sensing, it makes me even more puzzled how could she not realize that Miata was being secretly and sneakily attacked by Agatha, even if Galatea was distracted.
Actually, I don't think the term "distracted" exist when we're dealing with Galatea and yoki, especially with her new found senses and in a situation like this, she can't be distracted no matter how much or with whom she fights, or else she would be caught off guard.
Something has to be wrong about this...


We've been discussing this for quite a while, and the informations on the data books definitely put and end to this issue.
Even so, I'll ellaborate all over again to fully convince you.

I have came up with the assumption in the beginning of this thread, that Galatea could learn and master the preemptive technique. In the end, without knowing more informations about the data books aside the stats, I was proved right.
When chapter 74 was released, I realized that, to know exactly from were and with what speed an attack is coming even though she was blind, Galatea had to be guiding herself by the yoki flow, and that means she was actually predicting the attack.
When a Claymore attack, yoki goes to the respective part of her body, so reading this very flow accurately, its strength, its speed and its direction, means knowing the speed, the strength and from were the attack is coming. That, my friends, is the preemptive technique.
Galatea is only relying on that, we can even say that preemptive detection for Galatea now is not an active ability, it's a passive ability for her, it's always active and that's what guides her now, in her blindness.
For me, it was crystal clear that she was using preemptive detection, but even so, people still thought that only Teresa with the exception of Clare could use this technique, and there's still the fallacious idea that Galatea's senses are focused on range or emotion detection...

I interpreted Galatea's techniques and tried to understand a little better all the yoki concept, alignment, release, and even the phenomenoms related to it.
Analysing Galatea's manipulative abilities, I concluded that it required really detailed senses to accomplish it, just looking at Riful's explanation.
The preemptive and the manipulative technique actually are very alike, their basics are the same, roughly looking even Clare could confuse the preemptive technique with the manipulation technique.
Finishing my analysis, I also concluded that it was like the preemptive detection was actually inside the manipulation technique (included), the only difference being that the yoki manipulation needs yoki alignment and balance, what turns this technique more complex and difficult to complete.
[link here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1247062&postcount=495)]

Another noticeable skill trait of Galatea's senses is her huge, and I mean really huge range.
It's guaranteed that the little the distant, the more accurate the yoki reading is, but even lots of miles away, Galatea can not only notice her comrades but read with incridible precision and details their auras.
The level of detail caught on these long range readings is so high, that enable her to distinguish personalities, capture precise movements like gesturings or even trace an historical account of her target, just analysing her personality, the way she talks, moves or listens to others.
She catches gesturings from miles away, imagine how much strength you put on a single gesturing... and compare it with the strength put on an attack coming from an opponent steps away from you, using all its force and power. I think there is no comparison between these things, it's even higher than preemptive skill degree of detail, and coming from a yoki reading of miles away.

If we put yoki senses in account, then Galatea is far away the most incredible in this subject.
The data books sure have precise and canonical informations, but ironically, the thing that I most disagree is the evaluation of Galatea's senses.
The highest evaluation on this stat trait comes from Teresa, who has an S on it. Well, I'm not going to discord about this one, but if Teresa has a well deserved S in senses, then Galatea's senses would have to be measured using somethink like the scale more commonly found on awakened beings, I personally would give it an SS or SSS, or something like it to make it really match the feats (real facts) that she demonstrated in the manga.
It's really strange for Galatea to have only A+, where she is an expert at yoki manipulation and where she can do the above described reading of long ranges.
Heck, she could even sense the abyssal energies from the South, where she was in the East, in the Org's headquarters.
It's like hearing an atomic bomb from the other side of the world.
It reminds me of how I also disagree in the evaluation of her Yoki, which was told to strengthen her in the greatest factor among all the 47 Claymores, but we're talking about senses, so I won't get in this subject.

But now, we have the definite answer for this issue.
On Data book II, B-03, several skills are described and there is also an interesting graph comparing them.
In the description of the techniques, the users are included, and on the description of the preemptive detection, the users listed are Teresa, Clare and Galatea.
They also appear together in the graph, with regard to preemptive detection.
That conclusively put an end to whether Galatea has or not the preemptive detection technique.
Even more, I think it settles for the Teresa guardians, the sensitive battle between Galatea and Teresa.
We have to realise that the informations on the data books are referent to the warriors of 7 years ago.
Galatea not only had Teresa's technique (though she couldn't do it better than Teresa, she was not as strong and as fast to complement it), but also developed an even more complex technique that is the manipulation one.
Besides, she always had a much greater range of her senses, and an incredible perception on it, catching details even from great distances.

Galatea already had preemptive skills seven years ago, it's funny that she couldn't display it like she is doing. Maybe she wasn't fast enough to complement it.
But looking back, maybe Galatea didn't show great agility because the place were she fought wasn't the most suited at all, using only the manipulation technique in that narrow place was probably the best choice, and it was working.

Now, seven years after, and where we currently are, she demonstrates great agility, speed, preemptive reactions, strength, and much more to support this technique. I bet you Teresa fans can feel a bit of Teresa's style everytime Galatea smoothly avoids both Miata and Agatha, over and over again. :)
Galatea was already fascinating to me, now she is even more superb.

ABs ooze yoki naturally. And Agatha is no Priscilla. Yet she couldn't figure out what was happening to Maita just because she was distracted.

I emphasized the greatness of Galatea's sensing abilities, and I was the first one to comment about this issue.
Putting in check all the skills that Galatea demonstrated, I think something like this shouldn't happen.
I already have my speculations about what could possibly be, what happened to Miata was something very sudden, right on the end of the chapter, and I believe that this fact will not simply pass unnoticed (hopefully).
I don't think it can already be used by the pro-Teresa's as an argument against Galatea, whatever it may be, we'll better wait 3 weeks and see what the next chapter brings new.
You see, it's not really needed to point out fails on Teresa's side, if we put everything Galatea and Teresa done about sensing skills in account, the epitome of this ability is shown.
Even if this detail simply pass by, the best thing we can say is that it is now 1x1 on failed perceptions.
I prefer to wait 3 weeks. Hopefully, the story point of view won't nerf Galatea's uber sensing abilities.

Teresa had it much tougher with the four, but then again she was just that much tougher.

Analysing the difficulty of both situations, they are pretty comparable, I don't think Teresa's situation can be considered tougher.
Teresa had a group of 4 strong warriors against her, true, but there is a substantial difference if we compare it with Galatea's situation, where there is an unstable prodigy, Miata (Priscilla in Teresa's case), who has the potential to surpass even Alicia, the real most powerful Claymore ever, and there is an awakened being, a former number #2 (and probably a powerful one) whose powers aren't really defined but apparently she is much stronger than what we previously thought. Galatea is handling both at the same time, the degree of difficulty is pretty much the same or even more difficult compared to Teresa's.
First of all, it's an awakened being, if we go by the logic that 1 AB = 4 warriors, then it's 5 against 1. Awakened beings are normally faster and have a much greater range of attacks. The environment where they are mostly fighting is also much harsher, she's fighting on the roofs of the buildings in Rabona, it's an environment that requires much greater agility to move, run, avoid attacks and defend herself against enemy blows.
She's exchanging blows in the air with Miata, and when she lands she has to immediately avoid Agatha's trap, no matter from where it comes. And occasionaly, when she is caught, she has the power to react accordingly and repel all the enemy blows.
Her nature as a defensive type also enables her to endure great damages and continue to fight no matter what, she may have holes in her body and also have lost one arm, but she still doesn't make it easy for her opponents.
Teresa on the other hand, could never have the luxury to take these kind of damages, her offensive nature would make it difficult if not impossible for her to endure them, Miata's attack that pierced Galatea could be a fatal wound to Teresa, and losing an arm for an offensive warrior is out of cogitation.

Galatea's situation doesn't leave anything to be desired compared to Teresa's situation.


I asked me one thing all the time: What would happen if riful is somehow able to kill beth during a soul link with awakened alicia?

Alicia would awaken.
The process was well explained in the data books, its concept is based on two parts: the yoki releaser, responsible for the great release of power and combat role; and the controller, responsible for the mental state of the one that completely releases her yoki. It's also her function to pull back the one responsible for the combat role. If the yoki controller can't pull back the one that completely released her yoki and awakened, or in worst case, if there is no yoki controller at all, then the one that released her yoki and awakened would stay as an awakened being and returning from this satte would be impossible.
That was exactly what happened with Luciella, Raphaella couldn't pull her back from the awakened state due to mental weakness, maybe she was not mentally strong enough to accomplish the most delicate part of the Soul Link.


Continuing where I left off:

Caption Alicia: Birth of the strongest warrior of all generations.
[could theoretically also mean strongest in several generations, but since that would include Teresa’s it would amount to the same thing anyway]

B-01 The twins Alicia and Beth
To increase the probability of success as far as possible the homogenization of youki and the training from an early stage were made an indispensable condition. Therefore securing infant twins constituted a necessary requirement. To secure such a rare human raw material we even took the unprecedented measure of directly negotiating the transfer of sucklings form a normal family. During the search for the raw material the negotiations with the parents certainly didn’t go smoothly, but in the end we managed to obtain Alicia and Beth who were of an among twins truly outstanding quality.
Thus the preparation of all ingredients was arranged and resuming the experiment itself became possible.

Caption Alice/Beth: The acquirement of the rare human material was fortunate.

B-02 Training program
The half youma production process was performed on the subject twins with flesh and blood from the same youma while they were infants and they were trained thoroughly from a young age.
The training time was almost exclusively divided between youki alignment and combat techniques. This did not even change when they became warriors and they almost never left their assigned districts. As a result they never thought about anything but combat and their minds developed such that they possessed almost no individual ego, but this lack of ego benefited the mind sharing that was central to the plan, and the absence of superfluous thoughts brought avoidance of any mental weakening with it. Above all it had the result that they became obedient warriors and their training progressed more favourably.

Caption shadowy conversation from volume 9: They persevered even through the harshest training.

B-03 Role sharing

We will expound on the details later, but the two of them share a mind, and during combat accomplish such a role sharing that while Alicia completely releases her youriki Beth completely restrains her youki and holds the changes in their mind in check. Thus even when the body awakens by virtue of the complete youriki release the human mind is not lost, and returning to the human state is made possible. Their black equipment that gave rise to self same name is a special measure for the transformation that comes with the bodily awakening.

Caption: Through role sharing they won’t miss sight of their combat objectives even with a complete release.

B-04 Results of being thrown into real combat
After their completion the opponents in their first real combat were the 11 above average awakened beings that were sent by Easley to the headquarters. The results were superb. Alicia on her own accomplished their annihilation within a short time. With the exhaustion of Beth, who was in charge of the mental side, after combat completion while intense still being within expectations and her avoiding any injuries thanks to Alicia who was taking care of the direct combat the obtained results were as hoped for.

caption top corner: Obtaining this result with one body is sufficient for satisfaction
caption in between: The responsibility of the part that takes care of the mind is very grave.

C Concept -------------- Structural hypothesis of awakening while preserving a human mind.
The twins became warriors on the basis of the flesh and blood of the same youma.
Thereby the complete youki alignment and the mind sharing could be realized. Below the concept of this process as well as the release and control sharing system is written down. But this subsection never leaves the field of hypothesis and many parts are unclear. For learning what is really going on within them there remains no choice but to wait for further data collection and analysis.

Caption: The successful complete youki alignment is the key

Preliminary stage Complete youki alignment

Devising a thorough youki homogenization a complete youki alignment became possible. Warriors who are skilled at youki alignment are not rare, but Alice and Beth were the first who reached complete alignment. Just like it’s possible for a warrior skilled in youki alignment to control the movement of her opponent to some degree they reached a state were they could control each other completely. One could say that complete youki alignment signifies synchronization of not just the youki but also of thoughts and actions.

Picture:
Heads: mind
Double arrow: alignment of thoughts and actions
Label on the grey cloud: complete youki alignment

Next stage Complete sharing of the mind
What lies ahead if one presses forward with complete youki alignment and increases the degree of synchronization is mind sharing. As a result of alignment training from a young age their minds fused together and whatever one of them was thinking would also appear in the thoughts of the other. If one is not afraid of stretching the point one could say that the two of them constitute one individual entity. Therefore they lack egos of their own that could hamper the alignment. To put it in another way they effectively have no impulse in their hearts but to execute what they have been trained in.
Picture:
Double arrow: mind that has fused into one
black background: mind sharing

During combat Complete youriki release entrusting the mind to the other
During combat complete mind sharing shows its true value. The one who is entrusted with fighting just releases her youriki completely, and the other one takes over and controls the mind while taking care to completely suppress her youriki. Because the one who suppresses her youki takes over the role of continuously keeping the releaser’s urge to awaken in check she retains her human heart. This makes complete awakening in body only possible. After combat completion the one who took over the mind pulls the releaser back into human form. At that time mental strength and concentration are of uttermost importance.

Picture:
left:
white background: takes over the mind and keeps on controlling
bb: complete youki suppression
head: mind
right:
wb: awakening in body only
bb: complete youriki release

◆
At the end of a long history of hardships we saw Alicia’s tentative completion. Because she is a test subject without precedent there are sill many holes in our understanding and we cannot pride ourselves with having perfected her, but one can say that at this time she is the fulfilment of our hopes. It was of great significance that when she proved her combat power by preventing the awakened attack on the headquarters she simultaneously showed her strength to the Abyssal Ones. Her introduction into the constantly shifting state of the war as a power to oppose the Abyssal Ones is greatly awaited.

Wow, thanks very much for this reading Voracious Reader. :)
That's exactly the kind of info that I expected, something more specific and that we really didn't know.
I think Alicia and Beth are the most unknown warriors of the story so far, we don't know anything about them aside from their position in the ranks, the achievement of the Soul Link and their last names, Zema.
And as some people picked up, these informations can also give us a hint of what Riful wants with a yoki manipulator.

Thanks again, Voracious Reader. :)

Notes: Seishin can mean mind, soul, spirit, or all of that at once. I have translated it as mind, and effectively all references to mind here [except for kokoro= heart, which can also mean mind or soul] are translations of seishin (in the first part as well). It would be entirely possible, in fact trivial, to diffuse the ambiguity. After all there are words that mean just soul (e.g. tamasi) or just mind (slightly more difficult, you could use e.g. ishiki=consciousness). The fact that such a distinction is not made suggests that it is not thought to be important. The strict separation of mind body and soul is a western idea anyway. Alternatively pointing out you are not talking about souls would be redundant if the Organization does not believe in the existence of souls in the first place. An interpretation of seishin as just the soul seems unlikely not least because that would mean that the mind is barley mentioned and even assuming the soul is the key the mind should still be pretty important.
It is not specified whether the mind sharing is always on or has to be activated.

Yeah, I always thought that the Soul Link would have a pretty good explanation, all this Soul concept should not be interpreted literally.
Though twins sharing their minds is indeed something metaphysical or rather really unnusual, there are several accounts found in many places, including literature or even with some scientific aproach about the special relation and possibly the special connection that only identical twins have.
This very connection is really used and explored on the twins Alicia and Beth.
Up till now Claymore showed to be a straight manga and aside from a few unnatural elements, like super-human strength, speed and different creatures, things actually really common in any kind of manga, there isn't really metaphysical concepts in it. There is no magic in Claymore, everything related to the unnatural things that occur and exist in this manga are much more biological than anything.
I think most of the things, if not all can have a pretty good explanation. But sometimes the manga will not have the time to properly explain it, and that's where the data books may come in.

The word I translated as youki alignment is the same as the one I translated as youki tuning earlier when it referred to Galatea's ability. When I started with this section I felt they were not quite the same thing. Well, turns out they are. Which translation do you like better?

They are, there is info in the manga to support this as well.
It makes sense, but I'm not used with Yoki tunning, so yoki alignment or yoki manipulation is better at least for me. :p

But even with Alicia's godly stats, just how strong is she compared to Riful and Easley when Awakened? As she is, Alicia could have massacred Priscilla when she was still a Claymore but with Awakening, Priscilla trumps everyone. Just how strong could Priscilla had been had she not Awakened. Eventually, she would have surpassed Teresa, no doubt about that.
If Raphaella's stats are indicative of Luciella's and Easley's strength, then Alicia, who is a lot stronger than Raphaella, in awakened state would have the advantage.
I don't think it's like she is overwhelming stronger compared to them, I think she would have the upper hand against them in the overall battle, but the outcome would still be doubtful.
I think that's what the Org mean by saying they have the power to oppose the Abyssals, it's not only something that would harm or endanger them would they really try to destroy the Org, it's really something that would intimidate them and cost their life would they face it.

It's so sad it's almost laughable that even with all the work they put into Alicia and Beth - the years and years of training - even as strong as she is, she's still not in Priscilla's league. 0.o

I think it's still too soon to say something like this.
Remember Priscilla's fight against Easley?
One thing that I always have in mind is that Priscilla is a lucky girl for Easley being the type of guy that always "asked first, and then shot later". He had his chance to settle things.
Imagine if it was Alicia fighting against Priscilla in that given situation. Alicia definitely doesn't care with whom or with what she is fighting against, let alone what she is slicing and ripping apart.
She doesn't have any doubts or thoughts, she does only have her systematic motivation of battle.

Zema Twins for the win. :)

[irvinethearcher]

I asked me one thing all the time: What would happen if riful is somehow able to kill beth during a soul link with awakened alicia?

Alicia would awaken.
The process was well explained in the data books, its concept is based on two parts: the yoki releaser, responsible for the great release of power and combat role; and the controller, responsible for the mental state of the one that completely releases her yoki. It's also her function to pull back the one responsible for the combat role. If the yoki controller can't pull back the one that completely released her yoki and awakened, or in worst case, if there is no yoki controller at all, then the one that released her yoki and awakened would stay as an awakened being and returning from this satte would be impossible.
That was exactly what happened with Luciella, Raphaella couldn't pull her back from the awakened state due to mental weakness, maybe she was not mentally strong enough to accomplish the most delicate part of the Soul Link.


I somehow doubt that it will be the same in the case of beth and alicia. There must be a difference to the rafaella/luciella case. Luciella was independent and could think on his own and had her own ambitions. But what will be with Alicia? Why trys riful so desperately to recrute claymores with sensing abillities?
Only disturb the soul link and kill beth to get an new AO allie? That is IMO to simple for someone as cunning as riful. And she gave clare a hint in their little talk that she intends do do much more, that she found something intersting...
I think after the death of beth alicia will be like a puppet without strings and riful intends to exchange the puppetmaster, which is beth at the moment.

My theorie:
Rafaella gave her sister parts of her memories and personality back while trying to pull her back but if beth is killed immediately she has not the opportunity to do that. Besides, Alicia didn't have something like a personnality from the start.
And there is another thing i thought about: What are agatha's sensing abillities? Perhaps agatha will team up with riful and dauff.

[Anima]

Yeah, she had problems with both low yoki level (beginning of the fight) and high yoki level (led to a dangerous cut on her forehead).
I disagree here about the low yoki level sensing handicap. Teresa, while being a trainee, could sense Rafaela's yoki who is specialized in hiding it. It seemed to me that Priscilla mastered suppressing her yoki completely, or rather never had the need to "exhaust" it as Irene said about it so that's why Teresa didn't feel her presence at all but of course we don't know for sure and it could be that Teresa was distracted at that moment. In the end she is still "human" with flaws :D

Actually, the peak of the achievements regarding the Org's hybridization is (are) definitely Alicia and Beth.
Not only because all the work that the Org put on them, all the training to make the Soul Link process possible, their level in the stats book speaks for itself.
They had the special training that no other Claymore could have, it's now guaranteed that they had combat training, so yeah, they fight. Not only that, they had been fighting in their whole lifes.
From a technological point of view, then yes, The Zema Twin are the finest product of the organization because of achieving a successful Soul Link but to me, it always seemed that the organization create new claymores and then it's the claymore human self and/or the yoma being used for the hybridization which makes the new born claymore powerful or not. otherwise, why wouldn't the organization create more Teresa's/Priscilla's? It's like a gamble not that the organization chose this claymore to be powerful or not unless the new issues show us that indeed the org could easily create new Teresa/Alicia/Beth. Of course, achieving Soul Link is amazing and I am sure the org would love to have more brainless claymores to do their dirty job but it's difficult because they have to find twins who were orphaned or somehow manage to get them from their parents as they did with the Zema Twin.


Their level is higher than both Priscilla's (Claymore form) and Teresa's.

Next thing you would probably argue about is the possibility of Teresa hiding her true powers or true potential.

Orsay, in Teresa of the Faint Smile page 12 (volume pag 83):

Orsay: "So, she's know as Teresa of the faint smile... the strongest woman among those called Claymores."
Orsay: "!"
Orsay: "Heh, maybe not..."
Orsay: "... the strongest woman."
Orsay: "Rather, the strongest creature."

I'm sorry, but it's not like they really had no idea about Teresa's powers.
Even so, they underestimated her, I know, they were confident with their new power source, Priscilla, that proved to be too unstable. Don't need to get in more details, that's really not the matter in this discussion.
In Teresa's case, her stats are pretty accurate in my opinion.

Anyway, it's not like Teresa and Priscilla are the twin Goddesses of Claymore (Ok, Teresa's name belongs to a Goddess :p), currently there are strong warriors that can be a match or more than a match to what these two were.
Unless I missed something, show me how they are more powerful than either of Priscilla or Teresa in claymore form. Priscilla is obviously inferior since she got spanked around but what about Teresa?

Alicia's power is theoretically assumed to rival the abyssals but up to this very moment we haven't seen Alicia fighting those who count (abyssals).

It's not like I am just being stubborn for Teresa but once I see Alicia in real action in either form, I will submit to what I've seen/read. I've seen Teresa overwhelming Prisicilla, the strongest AB, when she was using around 80% of her yoki by just using 10% yoma power. Unless when a claymore awaken, that 20% more yoki leaps to something else, then it's another story.

[khryoleoz]

FaceSmasher smashed my face, so my response will just have to add to points FaceSmasher makes.

I accept what is said about yoki sensing. I'll say that Teresa is recognized as the best user to have possessed this ability. One does not get that recognition by being found lacking in it compared to another. So everything that is said of Galatea's sensing ability Teresa also has, the difference being in the quality that this ability is possessed and used, which the org ranks one's S (special) to another's A+ (above average).

They were very much aware that Teresa is powerful. They've ranked her number one. Ordsay calls her the strongest "monster". But even with all that they did know about her, she could, and I think did, have more than they'll now ever know. It is worth noting that Teresa thought it necessary to conceal what actually happened with Rosemary. In terms of practicality, there was no reason to. Rosemary awoke before she sent Teresa the black card, so the org wouldn't fault Teresa for that. No, what she intended to do was hide the true nature of her strength. It seems to me that the org measured her power according to what Teresa allowed to be measured. It would be similar with Priscilla. She was a walking pillar of the strongest latent abilities we've ever seen, which when released were even more powerful than the AOs! In her case, the org measured what they could measure of her power because Priscilla had been supressing it.

I'm sure that from the Org's limited knowledge, they find in Alicia the finest fruit of their labor. But it stands to reason that there are far too many mysteries concerning Teresa and Priscilla for us readers to prematurely share their opinion. The two are even more special than the twins in their unpredictability.

Priscilla does have luck on her side. She had survived Teresa's sword by her mercy. But her fight with Isley really ended in her victory. Had she not quit the fight early, Isley would not have been in the position to be the one to not deliver the finishing blow. He was more beat up than she was from what I saw. But recall also that another AO, Riful, didn't even want to fight her, having sensed that she had no chance in hell. All that a one on one fight between Priscilla and Alicia prove is that the Org will now need to raise a new number 1.

[chibamonster]

Nice posts FaceSmasher and khryoleoz. I half expected another multi post war in this thread :D. Riful recognizes Alicia as a third Abyssal. I'm not sure how Riful got this information, but I'd imagine she would be extra cautious after the slap in the face from meeting Priscilla. We don't know what has happened during the 7 years but Riful's information is usually spot on unless she is dealing with Isley who is as adept at mind games as she is.

Khryoleoz mentioned one of my favorite points in all of claymore: Teresa lying about her strength in the first extra chapter. The organization already had her pinned as number 1 so it wouldn't have changed her status if they knew she had killed AB Rosemary. They might have used her to go abyssal hunting though which would have forced her to dig a little deeper into her youki. I have come to the conclusion that Teresa was afraid of her own youki potential. It wouldn't match her personality to lie just because she felt like it. Teresa even told Clare that she didn't lie because she didn't have to and she stuck to that being direct and even abrasively honest about everything. She had to have a real reason to lie beyond just feeling like it at that moment.

I am excited to see what will happen with Alicia and Beth as well as Miata. Mentioning that Miata always had the power to aim for #1 is fairly terrifying if Alicia is still in the ranking system.

[irvinethearcher]

the difference being in the quality that this ability is possessed and used, which the org ranks one's S (special) to another's A+ (above average).


I think it's clear that theresa was the most gifted yoki senser known so far. Riful is perhaps at the same league but we know not enough to judge rifuls sensing abilities. Galatea is better at the moment because she had seven years extreme training but if teresa had worn a blindfold day and night for seven years she would surpase galatea again, i'm sure about that. Clare inherited her superior talent, because clare was able to sense the yoma in her test and she was the only one.
If you look at her stats she had a c+ in sensing and an E in any other abilitie, except mentality. So, the distance between her sensing abilitie and the rest could be far greater than only d(E,C+) because the scale ends at E.


They were very much aware that Teresa is powerful. They've ranked her number one. Ordsay calls her the strongest "monster". But even with all that they did know about her, she could, and I think did, have more than they'll now ever know. It is worth noting that Teresa thought it necessary to conceal what actually happened with Rosemary. In terms of practicality, there was no reason to. Rosemary awoke before she sent Teresa the black card, so the org wouldn't fault Teresa for that. No, what she intended to do was hide the true nature of her strength. It seems to me that the org measured her power according to what Teresa allowed to be measured. It would be similar with Priscilla. She was a walking pillar of the strongest latent abilities we've ever seen, which when released were even more powerful than the AOs! In her case, the org measured what they could measure of her power because Priscilla had been supressing it.

I'm sure that from the Org's limited knowledge, they find in Alicia the finest fruit of their labor. But it stands to reason that there are far too many mysteries concerning Teresa and Priscilla for us readers to prematurely share their opinion. The two are even more special than the twins in their unpredictability.

Priscilla does have luck on her side. She had survived Teresa's sword by her mercy. But her fight with Isley really ended in her victory. Had she not quit the fight early, Isley would not have been in the position to be the one to not deliver the finishing blow. He was more beat up than she was from what I saw. But recall also that another AO, Riful, didn't even want to fight her, having sensed that she had no chance in hell. All that a one on one fight between Priscilla and Alicia prove is that the Org will now need to raise a new number 1.


totaly agreed! we don't know for sure how strong alicia is but it is probable that she has no chance of wining against "the thing" and the true power of theresa and pris is still a mysterie.

[Voracious Reader]

Quick comment: S is not necessarily better than a A+

It says + means the effective utilisation of the power depends on the circumstances and not that it' s an intermediate value.
For an example Clare's C+in perception means that C is the minimum ability and that she can use it at that level at any time, but in some circumstances her perception might be A or even S level.

[irvinethearcher]

O no, i missunderstood this thing with the '+' the entire time:( - thx voracious_Reader

[Taylor_Maclaurin]

Quick comment: S is not necessarily better than a A+

It says + means the effective utilisation of the power depends on the circumstances and not that it' s an intermediate value.
For an example Clare's C+in perception means that C is the minimum ability and that she can use it at that level at any time, but in some circumstances her perception might be A or even S level.
Then this entire stats evaluation lost last bit of meaning if the stats itself say nothing about actual power. The question is why then "C+" not "C-S" depending on circumstances...
I'm interpreting X+ as sth worse than Y but still much better than X.

[chibamonster]

And the organizations information doesn't even seem to be that accurate about characters who are alive right now. This is probably not the place to say it as the thread is all about them anyway, but I don't trust the data books very much. Anything can change in the story at any moment so it is seems to be an analysis of things that have already happened. Galatea got even better at her youki reading, Clare got a huge attack power upgrade with Irene's arm, all the half awakened got a power boost the organization didn't take into account. Not to mention that claymores emotions play a huge role in the story (like Ophelia's suicidal game or Clare's uber half awakening powerup). Although it is fun to see how little the organization knows about its warriors :D.

[irvinethearcher]

Although it is fun to see how little the organization knows about its warriors


And it's fun to see how they underestimated them in particular clare and theresa :p

[Voracious Reader]

Then this entire stats evaluation lost last bit of meaning if the stats itself say nothing about actual power. The question is why then "C+" not "C-S" depending on circumstances...
I'm interpreting X+ as sth worse than Y but still much better than X.
I think you misunderstood me. It's not a matter of interpretion. Right at the bottom of the first page with stats in each volume it says:
"Ability declaration: Assessment E>A for each item. S signifies a capacity on a different level. + indicates that the effective utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value."
Of course you are free to ignore his. Just like you are free to decide that the letters sometimes stand for blood groups or cup sizes or whatever. You just shouldn't delude yourself into thinking that that makes for a useful basis for discussion.

The only open question is whether the value in front of the + is the average, maximum or minimum value. It seems obvious to me that it has to be the minimum value (both from looking at the examples and because otherwise another symbol would be used), but it's not outright stated anywhere as far as I can see.

[BaalChaamon]

I'm not sure about the whole Alicia and Beth being mindless robot attribute people seem to assign them.

Simply being without 'personality' doesn't mean that an awakened Alicia would sit there like an idiot, given the frequently mentioned Beth-getting-killed scenario.
On the contrary, I'd like to think that should something along those lines happen Alicia would very well be capable of defending herself against attacks and acting on an instinctive level. I want to see more of the twins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So the "+" refers the capability to infrequently increase their performance in the respective ability?Interesting as it would indicate that Claymore's have latent potential that could be developed and expanded further, laying the foundation of the 'learning' process and progression of Claymores in their respective skills. It could explain how Miria was able to learn her new Phantom ability, Clare improve her usage of sensing and combine it with a combat application and Galatea's greatly improved Yoki radar.
Also, in regards to Alicia and Beth it could give some indication that they're continues Awakening and Soul-Linking makes them progressively stronger, much like the half-awakened bunch have become able to use more of their latent potential.

[Voracious Reader]

Also, in regards to Alicia and Beth it could give some indication that they're continues Awakening and Soul-Linking makes them progressively stronger.My take is that all those +es indicate that the values are much higher in AB form.

[chibamonster]

BaalChaamon, I agree about Alicia and Beth. The organization is wrong about so many things I hope that they are also wrong about the twins personality. I'd like to imagine that they share a simple love and concern for each other. A character with no emotions or desires of their own wouldn't really fit into the claymore world. Even the men in black want something.

Youki is a strange thing. It seems to respond to emotions more than it responds to tests and measurements. Having more usually means a victory unless someone like Clare knows what you are going to do before you do it. If Ophelia didn't have the ripple sword then her battle against Clare would have been much more frustrating. So the + sign can mean "we don't really know?"

[BaalChaamon]

I would love to see the twins share a strong sisterly bond,maybe one even stronger than that of Luciela and Rafaela but propably not on a conscious level but rather subconciously but certainly on a deeper level than the Org. is making it out to be. I'd like to think that they share an innate link between each other as twins and given the circumstances that they spend all their life training and fighting together and perfecting the Soul-Link, which requires a very high level of trust between the two. Rosiel and Alexiel from Angel Sanctuary come to mind. One being uncapable of living without the other, very much like a perfected symbiosis.
I can see Alicia being in shock,grieving, breaking down mentaliy and going into rampage over a dead Beth, a scenario that I much despise though.

The '+' could simply indicate a variable and potential that is not assessable as it is yet in progress of developing but is capable of manifesting under certain circumstance?

[Anima]

I'm not sure about the whole Alicia and Beth being mindless robot attribute people seem to assign them.

Simply being without 'personality' doesn't mean that an awakened Alicia would sit there like an idiot, given the frequently mentioned Beth-getting-killed scenario.
On the contrary, I'd like to think that should something along those lines happen Alicia would very well be capable of defending herself against attacks and acting on an instinctive level. I want to see more of the twins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess when I said brainless I didn't really express what I meant. From what Voracious Reader translated before, Alicia and Beth are the perfect warriors (or so the org claims) and both share the same mind & soul so the scenario of Beth getting into danger while Alicia is idle about it is not an option so when Beth get endangered, Alicia would percept that as being endangered herself in Soul Link. We are talking about perfect warriors here.

I would love to see the twins share a strong sisterly bond,maybe one even stronger than that of Luciela and Rafaela but propably not on a conscious level but rather subconciously but certainly on a deeper level than the Org. is making it out to be. I'd like to think that they share an innate link between each other as twins and given the circumstances that they spend all their life training and fighting together and perfecting the Soul-Link, which requires a very high level of trust between the two.
What could be deeper than trusting the other to bring you back from the world of yoma after awakening and keeping your human heart in check? ;)

[Taylor_Maclaurin]

I think you misunderstood me. It's not a matter of interpretion. Right at the bottom of the first page with stats in each volume it says:
"Ability declaration: Assessment E>A for each item. S signifies a capacity on a different level. + indicates that the effective utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value."
Of course you are free to ignore his. Just like you are free to decide that the letters sometimes stand for blood groups or cup sizes or whatever. You just shouldn't delude yourself into thinking that that makes for a useful basis for discussion.

The only open question is whether the value in front of the + is the average, maximum or minimum value. It seems obvious to me that it has to be the minimum value (both from looking at the examples and because otherwise another symbol would be used), but it's not outright stated anywhere as far as I can see.
Ok, but for some reasons there are higher ranks. D>E, C>D, B>C, A>B, S>A. S is a maximum in claymore's case. If someone had S+ , then we couldn't tell how powerful he is because it's already maximum of maximum. If this translation is correct then we can't even be sure if someone with A+ ability can really use it at A level, maybe only at E. So again it only tells us that MiB's evaluation is nothing more than guessing after seeing performance of the warriors.

[DazarGaidin]

I read the explanation of the + 'depending on circumstances' as they can perform at the letter indicated if the circumstances existed, not at the next higher level under certain circumstances. In other words, for an A+ an A doesn't become an S or whatever in those circumstances, but under those circumstances they can use that ability at the A level.

Granted i thats what i gathered from reading the quaoted text in this thread, i havent read the actual data books beyond the translations posted in the image thread.

[Tempest35]

I think that the 'A+' and 'depending on circumstance' can be best illustrated in Irene's case. 'Depending on the circumstance' her Quicksword will make mincemeat out of nearly any Claymore. Nearly any other Claymore. In that particular circumstance, her technique was rendered almost 'useless', but as we all saw against her vs Ophelia, she trumped Ophelia's Rippling Sword quite easily.

Well, I believe that's one way to interpret the 'depending on circumstances' line, t least that's how I view one way. :heh:

[irvinethearcher]

My take is that all those +es indicate that the values are much higher in AB form.

I've read the latest post concerning the "depending on circumstances" subject and this explaination makes the most sense. It explains even why priscilla could become so strong in her awakened beeing form, because she had many '+' in her stats.

[koffy]

I wonder how strong could Miata be in AB form, with her scary stats...

[khryoleoz]

I think you misunderstood me. It's not a matter of interpretion. Right at the bottom of the first page with stats in each volume it says:
"Ability declaration: Assessment E>A for each item. S signifies a capacity on a different level. + indicates that the effective utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value."
Of course you are free to ignore his. Just like you are free to decide that the letters sometimes stand for blood groups or cup sizes or whatever. You just shouldn't delude yourself into thinking that that makes for a useful basis for discussion.

The only open question is whether the value in front of the + is the average, maximum or minimum value. It seems obvious to me that it has to be the minimum value (both from looking at the examples and because otherwise another symbol would be used), but it's not outright stated anywhere as far as I can see.


The + conditions as recently explained puts a different spin on things.

"+ indicates that the effective utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value."

The way this is worded, the letter grade is not indicative of a minimum value "plus more" depending on the circumstances. The phrase indicates that at whatever grade the warrior's ability is under normal or less than optimum circumstances, the warrior is able to utilize that power up to that letter grade depending upon conditions. This makes sense and fits how we've seen the warriors use their abilities to greater or lesser degrees circumstantially. And if this is true, Teresa is still the best among them, as her abilities are fixed at their grades, meaning that at all times she has full command of her abilities at a level higher than any other warrior. And to think, Teresa is hiding more power than what she openly demonstrates. What a monster indeed!

Going back to Galatea, the associative description I was looking for that is on Teresa's and Clare's stats that I don't find on Galatea's is "Pre-emptive Perception" under Class. All Galatea has listed is Defensive Type. Was this omitted?

[Voracious Reader]

The + conditions as recently explained puts a different spin on things.

"+ indicates that the effective utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value."

The way this is worded, the letter grade is not indicative of a minimum value "plus more" depending on the circumstances. The phrase indicates that at whatever grade the warrior's ability is under normal or less than optimum circumstances, the warrior is able to utilize that power up to that letter grade depending upon conditions.
If you see it that way that's just an effect of the inadequacy of my translation. The implication isn't really there in the Japanese version as far as I can tell. Trying to translate as directly as possible this time: "+ is a (power/force/faculty) that can, according to the (situation/circumstances), be (used/displayed) (successfully/to great effect/effectively), not an intermediate value"

Going back to Galatea, the associative description I was looking for that is on Teresa's and Clare's stats that I don't find on Galatea's is "Pre-emptive Perception" under Class. All Galatea has listed is Defensive Type. Was this omitted?All she has listed? There isn't really any place left to list anything else beyond the listed defensive type, wide area perception and alignment manipulation.

Heh. Just noticed Teresa is listed at omnipotent :cool:. (well, maybe not quite. Bannou can mean omnipotent as in "omnipotent God", but also all-round skilled)

[Fate_Archer]

I somehow doubt that it will be the same in the case of beth and alicia. There must be a difference to the rafaella/luciella case. Luciella was independent and could think on his own and had her own ambitions. But what will be with Alicia? Why trys riful so desperately to recrute claymores with sensing abillities?
Only disturb the soul link and kill beth to get an new AO allie? That is IMO to simple for someone as cunning as riful. And she gave clare a hint in their little talk that she intends do do much more, that she found something intersting...
I think after the death of beth alicia will be like a puppet without strings and riful intends to exchange the puppetmaster, which is beth at the moment.

My theorie:
Rafaella gave her sister parts of her memories and personality back while trying to pull her back but if beth is killed immediately she has not the opportunity to do that. Besides, Alicia didn't have something like a personnality from the start.
And there is another thing i thought about: What are agatha's sensing abillities? Perhaps agatha will team up with riful and dauff.

I think there is no doubt that Alicia would fully awaken and she would not be able to go back again.
The question that remains is what would happen to Alicia's mental state. I'm not sure how it would be like after the Soul Link is broken, whether a) she loses all the possible remaining consciousness and memories or b) after the soul link is broken, the little of her memories come back to her, or c) in the awakened state, the tissue and the yom side merge with her remaining conscious and her little personality is merged with the possible instincts of the yoma tissue, or options a) and b) together or options b) and c) together.
That's as far as I can imagine if that happened, their shared minds make the final result of things unpredictable.
In Luciella's case, the alignment wasn't even perfect and complete, so the mind sharing process that would require additionaly a special connection between the siblings could never happen. Alicia and Beth are definitely much more evolved in this process.

About Riful's intentions, I think what she found is something totally new, maybe it's not exactly the Soul Link process that's in Riful's scheme.
About the puppemaster thing, I don't think it would work. To achieve the Soul Link, a series of methods and conditions are needed, like the same yoma tissue to make the levels of yoki and the alignment happen more easily, great training of yoki alignment, potentialy decades training, and even a special connection mostly or only found in identical twins.
Even for Galatea, that is the most skilled in yoki alignment aside from the twins, it was nearly impossible for her to make a perfect alignment at least 7 years back.
If someone could manage to achieve something like a perfect alignment besides the twins, then it's definitely Galatea, but we don't know if the Soul Link can be broken to possibly enable this. I personally think it's not possible, Alicia would lose her mind and totaly awaken if Beth somehow was substituted in her role.

Like I said, I think the process of mind sharing even hadn't happened before Luciella awakened, so Luciella really retained some of her memories, but ended awakening.
It was like a realy neglected experiment. They aligned their yoki the best they could, and then tried to continue the process, the incompleteness of the alignment and the lack of special connections between the sisters, or the posible weakness of their personalities made the awakening of Luciella lose control, the situation advanced to a point where Raphaella couldn't pull Luciella back by any means.

I disagree here about the low yoki level sensing handicap. Teresa, while being a trainee, could sense Rafaela's yoki who is specialized in hiding it. It seemed to me that Priscilla mastered suppressing her yoki completely, or rather never had the need to "exhaust" it as Irene said about it so that's why Teresa didn't feel her presence at all but of course we don't know for sure and it could be that Teresa was distracted at that moment. In the end she is still "human" with flaws

It's more to barely could sense Raphaella's yoki.
Priscilla's suppression ability was somehow developed by her, there is also info in the data books theorizing that her suppression ability is rather a defense mechanism to prevent her of her own latent powers. Although, the disuse of yoki may indeed contribute to the total or parcial suppression of the yoki power or yoki aura.
Irene stated that Priscilla, for the reason that she doesn't fight exhausting her powers, would be the most suited warrior to fight against Teresa, the suppression of the powers may indeed difficult the yoki reading of such target.

And we all know that Teresa was or rather became very "human" through the series and in the end of things. :p

From a technological point of view, then yes, The Zema Twin are the finest product of the organization because of achieving a successful Soul Link but to me, it always seemed that the organization create new claymores and then it's the claymore human self and/or the yoma being used for the hybridization which makes the new born claymore powerful or not. otherwise, why wouldn't the organization create more Teresa's/Priscilla's? It's like a gamble not that the organization chose this claymore to be powerful or not unless the new issues show us that indeed the org could easily create new Teresa/Alicia/Beth. Of course, achieving Soul Link is amazing and I am sure the org would love to have more brainless claymores to do their dirty job but it's difficult because they have to find twins who were orphaned or somehow manage to get them from their parents as they did with the Zema Twin.

I think it depends more on the Claymore itself. We never heard something like the quality of the tissues enabling the creation of powerful warriors, if that was true, then I think there would be many Teresa's and Alicia's around, as you pointed.
Also, I can't see how a yoma tissue would differentiate from any other in the final process, all the yomas seem to be quite the same, the only difference being that ones may achieve a longer age and become a bit more powerful, and there are others rare specimens that can fly.
Aside from that, their level is pretty much the same, maybe the older ones can give a better material for hybridization, but there is no certainty about this.

They are definitely the peak of achievements of the Org's hybridization not only because of the accomplishment of the Soul Link, but also because they already were magnificent material even before the hybridization.
Also, one of the strongest facts that makes them the most finest work is that they are like two generations training. Teresa was a trainee when the twins were negociated and bought from their parents, all this time that we never heard about them they were training, having combat lessons and training the so delicate yoki alignment.
All these investiments and all this time spent could only be invested in their finest creations.

Unless I missed something, show me how they are more powerful than either of Priscilla or Teresa in claymore form. Priscilla is obviously inferior since she got spanked around but what about Teresa?

Alicia's and Beth's stats are greater than Teresa's.
Simply that, we never saw them fighting normally in their Claymore forms, but their superior stats are probably enough, they also support what they claim about them, that they are the most powerful Claymores in the annals.
Seems that the "+" translates as a level that can be variably greater depending on the circumstances, so the gap may be even greater.

Teresa of the Faint Smile: No.1 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: S
Leadership: B

Alicia and Beth: No.1 and No.2 (180 CM tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A+
Strength: A+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: E

I've seen Teresa overwhelming Prisicilla, the strongest AB, when she was using around 80% of her yoki by just using 10% yoma power. Unless when a claymore awaken, that 20% more yoki leaps to something else, then it's another story.

I think you're making a mistake here.
Priscilla in Claymore form and Priscilla in AB form should be treated as different objects.
It's been said many times that when Priscilla awakened, she unleashed all her latent powers.
Priscilla, as an awakened being is really much stronger than when she was a Claymore. She didn't just get 20% more power when she awakened.

Personally, I believe that there is a power up, we also have Ophelia's stats on both Claymore and AB form, and Ophelia as an awakened being naturally has (or seem to have) much greater stats.

Quick comment: S is not necessarily better than a A+

It says + means the effective utilisation of the power depends on the circumstances and not that it' s an intermediate value.
For an example Clare's C+in perception means that C is the minimum ability and that she can use it at that level at any time, but in some circumstances her perception might be A or even S level.

Right at the bottom of the first page with stats in each volume it says:
"Ability declaration: Assessment E>A for each item. S signifies a capacity on a different level. + indicates that the effective utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value."

The only open question is whether the value in front of the + is the average, maximum or minimum value. It seems obvious to me that it has to be the minimum value (both from looking at the examples and because otherwise another symbol would be used), but it's not outright stated anywhere as far as I can see.

That completely changes everything, and actually, makes a LOT more sense than before.
Claymores aren't always parked to a fixed level, they may evolve at certain areas and get progressively stronger.
So, the '+' indicates that the effective power actually depends on other factors, specially the circumstances.
This way, it can translate the progressing variability of the given stat trait, there are instances where this may occur, like great latent powers (Priscilla's yoki as A+), half-awakened state (boost to yoki or even other stats) and even great talent on certain areas, like Galatea's sensing abilities.
Now it REALLY makes more sense.
Aside from Clare, all the other half-awakened like Helen, Deneve and Miria have '+' on their yoki, it supports what Miria said about the quality of their yoki being stronger after they half-awakened.
Looking at Priscilla's stats, we'll find many '+', these '+' perfectly translate all the talk about Priscilla's potential, her latent powers and that she would soon surpass Teresa.

About the grade level that comes with the '+', it really seems to be the average or minimum.
It doesn't make sense this grade having its maximum value and a '+' right after.

And the organizations information doesn't even seem to be that accurate about characters who are alive right now.

Anything can change in the story at any moment so it is seems to be an analysis of things that have already happened.

The data books are indeed not up-to-date, there are characters that probably got stronger so for some characters, it's really not updated.

This is probably not the place to say it as the thread is all about them anyway, but I don't trust the data books very much.

Some or most of the people probably agree with you, but I think you're being unreasonable.
It's like having an opinion of a book that you actually never read.
In fact, that's the exact same thing, there aren't full translations of these data books.
First, I think we should try to understand things, after that, if things still doesn't make any sense, then I think we can say that they're really unreliable.

Also, just because one thing may not please us or is not exactly what we thought, it's no reason to give up on them yet.
At first, I didn't agree with Galatea's stats, but now with Voracious Reader's clarification, I think I can live with it much better now. :D

Anyway, we first have to read and try to understand them.

Galatea got even better at her youki reading, Clare got a huge attack power upgrade with Irene's arm, all the half awakened got a power boost the organization didn't take into account.

There is a whole section about techniques, there you will find data about Clare's QuickSword, techniques seem to not be included in the actual evaluation of the stats. The '+' could translate the power boost of the half-awakened.

Although it is fun to see how little the organization knows about its warriors .

Actually, with all the informations that were displayed in the data books, it's really impressive their knowledge about their warriors. They could even explain, though there are still uncertain details, the Soul Link process, and many other techniques, some of them particular to specific warriors.
Just because in one moment, it seemed like they didn't know about a specific warrior, doesn't mean that they know little about their warriors.

So the "+" refers the capability to infrequently increase their performance in the respective ability?Interesting as it would indicate that Claymore's have latent potential that could be developed and expanded further, laying the foundation of the 'learning' process and progression of Claymores in their respective skills. It could explain how Miria was able to learn her new Phantom ability, Clare improve her usage of sensing and combine it with a combat application and Galatea's greatly improved Yoki radar.
Also, in regards to Alicia and Beth it could give some indication that they're continues Awakening and Soul-Linking makes them progressively stronger, much like the half-awakened bunch have become able to use more of their latent potential.

Totally agreed. :)

My take is that all those +es indicate that the values are much higher in AB form.

That reminds me of my theory about constant progression of powers in the half-awakened, specially Alicia and Beth.
Recalling back, half-awakeneds get a power and yoki boost after they pass their limits and successfully get back.
Alicia and possibly Beth, when they return from their awakened forms, like any other half-awakened, they would also get a boost on their overall powers.
It may explain their powerful and apparently progressive stats.

I think it makes more sense this way, if it just indicated that the values are much higher in AB form it wouldn't make much sense for some of the warriors that also have a '+' in their stats.

Voracious Reader, I have 2 questions: :)

1)

Is there something that indicate that the scale used in the AB's and the Claymores is the same?
I mean, if you look at Katea's and Duff's stats, you will see that some of their stats level are evaluated using the grades of the Claymore scale.
If that is true, could it mean that S, isn't the Claymore's limit grade, due to this overlap of scales?

2)

On I-4 (section about the awakening phenomenon I guess), possibly C (page 22), is there something about increase of powers after the awakening process is finished?

I think there's still doubt whether after the awakening, reaching 100% there is a power up, or an AB is just a Claymore that reached 100% of its powers.
We have Ophelia's stats and Priscilla's stats on both Claymore and AB form, comparing them I personally think that they do get a power up.
Is there an answer for this?

Thanks again Voracious Reader. :D

[Voracious Reader]

Voracious Reader, I have 2 questions: :)

1)

Is there something that indicate that the scale used in the AB's and the Claymores is the same?
I mean, if you look at Katea's and Duff's stats, you will see that some of their stats level are evaluated using the grades of the Claymore scale.
If that is true, could it mean that S, isn't the Claymore's limit grade, due to this overlap of scales?

"Ability declaration: The values are estimates in comparison to warriors. Assessment A<SSS. Ex signifies a capacity so enormous that it defies estimation. + indicates that utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value."
Not that the stats make much sense. Awakened Katia being on the same level as Teresa? Or the fact that the accompanying text for Ophelia is a recap of the speculation in scene 41. How can they possibly have gathered any information on her abilities when they don't even know Clare killed her?

By the way, the 4th stat from above (in place of mental for Claymores) is hardness.


2)
On I-4 (section about the awakening phenomenon I guess), possibly C (page 22), is there something about increase of powers after the awakening process is finished?

I think there's still doubt whether after the awakening, reaching 100% there is a power up, or an AB is just a Claymore that reached 100% of its powers.
We have Ophelia's stats and Priscilla's stats on both Claymore and AB form, comparing them I personally think that they do get a power up.
Is there an answer for this?
Nope. The closest I could find was "compared to warriors their power is on a different level" as a caption at the start of the stats section (II-3 C), but I wouldn't put too much stock in that. Nothing about a bonus for reaching 100% anywhere as far as I can see.

[khryoleoz]

About the grade level that comes with the '+', it really seems to be the average or minimum.
It doesn't make sense this grade having its maximum value and a '+' right after.

That's one way it could make sense. But I like to dissect the translated explanation of +. Even with this more direct translation, "+ is a (power/force/faculty) that can, according to the (situation/circumstances), be (used/displayed) (successfully/to great effect/effectively), not an intermediate value," it is speaking of how effectively the power can be used under certain conditions. The + proceeding the letter grade acts as a qualifier that suggests that the power is effectively used at that level depending on conditions. Otherwise, it designates an unknown value to which the warrior can elevate that power. If that were the case, C+ can potentially be better than A+. Also, the effective use of power suggests that it is a power that the warrior can use within her limits. Using a power that sends one over her limits is not considered an effective use of it when it is generally accepted that there is no returning save for the few who experience the semi-awakening phenomenon. I haven't seen the graphs myself. If somebody can PM me where I can view them, that might help me grasp things better.


Alicia's and Beth's stats are greater than Teresa's.
Simply that, we never saw them fighting normally in their Claymore forms, but their superior stats are probably enough, they also support what they claim about them, that they are the most powerful Claymores in the annals.
Seems that the "+" translates as a level that can be variably greater depending on the circumstances, so the gap may be even greater.

Teresa of the Faint Smile: No.1 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: S
Leadership: B

Alicia and Beth: No.1 and No.2 (180 CM tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A+
Strength: A+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: E


Not if the + follows the condition as I understand it. That would put Teresa greater still. If the databooks can close that open question that Voracious Reader brings up, it would put an end to differing takes of the issue.

[x1berserk]

this is kinda off topic, didnt wanna make a new post in manga thread =/

what chapter is claymore up to? i got like first 2 chapters of volume 13 i think, have anymore been released since then?

[Voracious Reader]

this is kinda off topic, didnt wanna make a new post in manga thread =/

what chapter is claymore up to? i got like first 2 chapters of volume 13 i think, have anymore been released since then?
Chapter 76 as can be seen by looking at the stickied threads. That's going to be the 4th chapter in volume 14 I think.

[irvinethearcher]

Alicia's and Beth's stats are greater than Teresa's.
Simply that, we never saw them fighting normally in their Claymore forms, but their superior stats are probably enough, they also support what they claim about them, that they are the most powerful Claymores in the annals.


But they are hard trained and they are like clare, helen, miria and deneve half-awakened. And after the rosemary thing there are still spekulations about theresa hiding some of her power. If you look at the translated databook theresa page you can see, that the org believed theresas lie about rosemaries death. According to this the org calculated her stats without having the knowlledge of the rosemarie - theresa fight.
You're totally right about the stats thing but i thing the org didn't know the entire truth at the moment they calculated the stats and theresa was carefull enough not to show them what she really was capable of.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I still believe Teresa's "S" in Sensing would give her a significant advantage against Alicia/Beth in their non-awakened forms.

A "S" for AB stats not being proportional, it is probably indicative of how much energy is generated and used in maintaining their awakened forms.

So in other words, although awakening gives a rather large power boost, it also handi-caps their Yoki boost by requiring Yoki to maintain their new and more powerful forms.


I am glad someone got those definitions down for us, it does help the stats seem more clear, especially with our partially awakened girls.

The "+" on several characters stats appear much more intimidating now.

Although I'm willing to bet that Clare, with her constant partial-awakenings, has alot more "+"s then the Org gives her credit for.

[irvinethearcher]

I still believe Teresa's "S" in Sensing would give her a significant advantage against Alicia/Beth in their non-awakened forms.

A "S" for AB stats not being proportional, it is probably indicative of how much energy is generated and used in maintaining their awakened forms.

So in other words, although awakening gives a rather large power boost, it also handi-caps their Yoki boost by requiring Yoki to maintain their new and more powerful forms.



Don't kill me for this, but perhaps it would make sense thinking of the claymore stats (E - S) as the strength a claymore has if she releases 0% of her yoki - powers. This would imply that an awakened beeing has the same strength as a claymore which releases 100% of her yoki plus perhaps a fixed power boost.
This could be an explaination why 4 claymores are able to hunt an awakened beeing despite the great difference in strength between an awakened beeing and a claymore( difference([e-S], [A-Ex]).

[Fenrir_valindri]

Don't kill me for this, but perhaps it would make sense thinking of the claymore stats (E - S) as the strength a claymore has if she releases 0% of her yoki - powers. This would imply that an awakened beeing has the same strength as a claymore which releases 100% of her yoki plus perhaps a fixed power boost.
This could be an explaination why 4 claymores are able to hunt an awakened beeing despite the great difference in strength between an awakened beeing and a claymore( difference([e-S], [A-Ex]).

I don't plan on killing you :p , yet. :uhoh:

I believe Yoki acts as a multiplier of sorts for their other stats, since their small bodies house a great amount of Yoki they require alot less to enchance their strength.

ABs on the other hand use part of their Yoki to transform and maintain their forms, and then multiply their stats with the left-over Yoki.

So a A in a Claymore stat would be something like an SSS for an AB. as they use a large amount of Yoki to maintain their (much) larger forms, that have much greater stats.

Although your theory does make some sense. :D

[irvinethearcher]

Hm...Luciella couldn't hold her AB - Form after the fight against easley and she had to switch to her energy saving human form. The sad results of this are known...raphaella came to finsh her job.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Hm...Luciella couldn't hold her AB - Form after the fight against easley and she had to switch to her energy saving human form. The sad results of this are known...raphaella came to finsh her job.

Exactly, which implies that it takes a great deal of energy to maintain their AB forms, where their natural state is still their human-like bodies.

[khryoleoz]

The human form can't be their normal states if 1) they use that form to conserve energy and 2) it's what they can't help but revert to when they're out of energy. It's not like Luciela walked around all the time without energy. The human form is likely a disguise that allows them to infiltrate groups of people and select a combo for lunch.

[Newhope]

I don't think it would be much use against them, If I remember rightly been able to suppress there yoki is part of the controlled Awakening training. If we go by 'Teresa's meeting with Raphaella she will be able to sense them but not to the degree where she can sense there movements, Also if they start to release there yoki it would more than likely overwhelm her senseing seeing as there yoki is as high if not higher than Priscilla's.

If her senseing doesn't work it all comes down to stats and experience, we know that the twins are superior stat wise but we don't know how well they fight or how much hands on experience they have.If they fight 1 on 1 I think it would be an allout fight which the twin would just have the edge, if both twins fought her Teresa's she would't really sand a chance unless the twins where as noobish as Priscilla.

[Voracious Reader]

Why are you discussing Teresa vs the twins based on their stats in the book, as if Teresa's stats stood in some actual relation to her abilities? Her real stats would be more like

Youriki: EX
Agility: S
Strength: SSS
Mental: C
Perception: S
Leadership: B

[Newhope]

If she was that powerful she wouldn't be dead.And I think the org knows alot more than we give them credit for.

[chibamonster]

If she was that powerful she wouldn't be dead.And I think the org knows alot more than we give them credit for.

Watch out Newhope! You just jumped into water full of Teresa loving sharks! It's like you just walked into an NRA convention and said, "You know, Charlton Heston is a real sissy". Or like you went to a pep rally for environmental change and said, "Global warming isn't real". Maybe even like you put on a suit of hundred dollar bills and walked into a ghetto!

I'm worried for your safety. You know how berserk Clare goes when someone mentions Priscilla? When a discussion about Teresa's power level appears Teresa fans are like that. Only worse. And crazier.

[Newhope]

Watch out Newhope! You just jumped into water full of Teresa loving sharks! It's like you just walked into an NRA convention and said, "You know, Charlton Heston is a real sissy". Or like you went to a pep rally for environmental change and said, "Global warming isn't real". Maybe even like you put on a suit of hundred dollar bills and walked into a ghetto!

I'm worried for your safety. You know how berserk Clare goes when someone mentions Priscilla? When a discussion about Teresa's power level appears Teresa fans are like that. Only worse. And crazier.

She's a good character i just don't get where the blind faith is coming from.It's even funny sometime's like when they even rebuff Teresa's own words.

[Voracious Reader]

If she was that powerful she wouldn't be dead.And I think the org knows alot more than we give them credit for.
If the Org had known anything that mattered about her they wouldn't have sent an inadequate punishment force. They would have treated her as an AO without appetite for guts.
The stats in the book among other things imply that Sophia is physically stronger than Teresa. That's completely ridiculous.
IMO she is dead precisely because she was so powerful. She was so used to being absolutely invincible that things like caution and common sense were completely beyond her. If she had been weak enough to be inconvenienced against the occasional exceptionally strong AB and to be challenged by Rosemarie she probably would have used one of her umpteen opportunities to finish Priscilla off.
She didn't die due to lack of strength, but due to a lack of will, preparation and mental quickness. Note that I lowered her mental stat to C.

[Sassarai]

You can be powerful and still die. Prissy could of been killed by Isley after reverting back to human form.


edit: Chiba why are you talking about yourself haha.

[Tempest35]

She's a good character i just don't get where the blind faith is coming from.It's even funny sometime's like when they even rebuff Teresa's own words.

Ah, referring to when Teresa surmised that Priscilla would become monstrously stronger and that if there was a next time, she might not win? True... XD

Teresa: She can become stronger than me by the next time we meet. I shall train in the ROOM OF TIME so I can level my already god-like stats to an even higher level so she cannot beat me! For I am the Queen of Saiya-jins -I mean- Claymores!

Priscilla: 0.0 What is she babbling about??

Irene: Who knows...she loves manga though. (Maybe I shouldn't have gotten her DragonBall Z for Christmas)

Noel: Oh yeah? How do you know?

Irene: I am #2 Flash Sword Irene. There is nothing about Teresa that I do not know.

Sophia: *sees Teresa and Clare together*...so you knew that she was a pedophile too?

Irene: ><!!! WHAT!?!?

Sophia: Got ya. :p

[Newhope]

the Org had known anything that mattered about her they wouldn't have sent an inadequate punishment force. They would have treated her as an AO without appetite for guts.
The stats in the book among other things imply that Sophia is physically stronger than Teresa. That's completely ridiculous.
IMO she is dead precisely because she was so powerful. She was so used to being absolutely invincible that things like caution and common sense were completely beyond her. If she had been weak enough to be inconvenienced against the occasional exceptionally strong AB and to be challenged by Rosemarie she probably would have used one of her umpteen opportunities to finish Priscilla off.
She didn't die due to lack of strength, but due to a lack of will, preparation and mental quickness. Note that I lowered her mental stat to C.



The force they sent was really all they had to send at the time it may have been inadequate but if Priscilla hadn't been so noobish at the start and attacked stright away, even if she only wounded her the fight would have been very diffrent.In the long run the fight showed us she was strong but had some weaknesses that a powerful opponent could take agvantages of.

To be honest with you I wasn't that impressed with Rosemarie she acted almost as noobish as Priscilla,I don't think it's been mentioned but Rosemarie had just recently awakened so I doubt she would have been able to fully use her new body and power.I doubt she would have had such an easy time agianst Rigardo and Agatha whole have been around for a long time and now how to take advantage of there AB form.

[chibamonster]

You can be powerful and still die. Prissy could of been killed by Isley after reverting back to human form.


edit: Chiba why are you talking about yourself haha.

Some sharks have a conscience... :D even if it doesn't seem like it because they don't blink.:twitch:

Fun dialog tempest! I have one for Clare's dream about Teresa.

Clare: I had the most bizarre dream after our fight yesterday.
Miria: I probably shouldn't have gone so hard on you. What was the dream about?
Clare: An old friend of mine appeared and said, "Clare the name of your zanpakuto is ..."
Miria: That is weird. What was the name?
Clare: That's when I woke up so I couldn't hear her say it. The dream reminded me of another dream where I saw her behind a cage with this seal on it. She said she would lend me her power to fight Sasuke... wait no, Priscilla. That's what she said. But Raki started snoring so I woke up from that one too. Do you think there is any deeper meaning to these?
Miria: Not really. I mean I had a dream that I found this drill while digging in an underground town that allowed me to ride this funny short armored thing, and another one where I had this strange obsession with catching small animals and putting them in balls to fight other animals later. You can't take stuff like that seriously.
Clare: Wow. No wonder you are a single digit.

With these last few comments I can hear the voice from the original mortal kombat saying, "Fight!"

[Devilz911]

Why are you discussing Teresa vs the twins based on their stats in the book, as if Teresa's stats stood in some actual relation to her abilities? Her real stats would be more like

Youriki: EX


EX sounds like S but they're not the same thing.


Agility: S


Priscilla is faster.


Strength: SSS


I guess Sophia is SSSS? :rolleyes:


Mental: C


You know nothing about Teresa. :(


Perception: S


Hey, you actually got that one right!


Leadership: B


And this too.


IMO she is dead precisely because she was so powerful.

Your opinion doesn't matter here. Go look at the data book again.

[chibamonster]

Oh wow. Holy Cow Devilz911! I thought voracious reader was helping by TRANSLATING parts of the data book for us... :D

Well, There is only one thing to say now: FIGHT! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMf40daefsI) (click the fight to get the full effect)

[Voracious Reader]

The force they sent was really all they had to send at the time
Whic is why I said that the sensible approach would have been to treat her as AO without appetite for guts, i. e. not to send any force at all.

it may have been inadequate but if Priscilla hadn't been so noobish at the start and attacked stright away, even if she only wounded her the fight would have been very diffrent. In that Teresa might have been forced to release her Youki perhaps.


In the long run the fight showed us she was strong but had some weaknesses that a powerful opponent could take agvantages of.
A powerful opponent?
Weaknesses I see:
-not anywhere near as fast as she is strong, especially mentally
-Takes foolish risks
-overly reliant on reading youki

I could see a very cunning base line human beat her, even more so one of the men in black, but I have a very hard time seeing any AB or Claymore beat her in a fight except Priscilla and perhaps black Miria (somewhat tempted to also list Raphaela, but we know nothing about her fighting style)


To be honest with you I wasn't that impressed with Rosemarie she acted almost as noobish as Priscilla,I don't think it's been mentioned but Rosemarie had just recently awakened so I doubt she would have been able to fully use her new body and power.What do you base that on? She made good use of her tail and generally acted smarter than most AB. Clare ripped Rigald apart without any time to get used to her new body so I don't think your theory works in the general case either.
Also I don't base base my evaluation of Teresa on the fact that she was able to beat someone of roughly abyssal strength easily, but on the fact that at >10% she was far stronger than Priscilla at 70%, and that Priscillia in turn is far stronger than the Abyssal ones and AB generally don't seem all that much stronger, on average maybe twice as strong as the original (by which I mean as useful as two of the original fighting together in a fight).

[Voracious Reader]

EX sounds like S but they're not the same thing.
And...?
She has a ridiculously high Youki. Possibly more than anyone else, but at least more than any non-AO level AB. So EX.
(TE@~15% >> PRI @75% => TE@75% <> PRI @ 5x100%, and there is nothing indicating that AB get anywhere near as much as a 5 x Youki boost)
Priscilla is faster. now that she has awakened, yes. If it was just speed A would be fine, but she is better at all that jumping around than even Noel and she has A+. On reflection A+ would be better for Teresa, too, because she really isn't all that fast.

I guess Sophia is SSSS? :rolleyes: No, Sophia is A+. Teresa is strong enough to rip Rosemaries arm of with a twist of her hand, so she is clearly closer to Duff than Sophia in strength.

[khryoleoz]

No, no, no. You guys have it all wrong about why Teresa is dead. I found on secret databook I.VII compiled by Irene something about Teresa that neither the Org nor Voracious Reader published in their stats.

Hardness: -EX
Youriki: EX
Agility: S
Strength: SSS
Mental: C
Perception: S
Leadership: B

A later revision put it this way.

Softness: EX
Youriki: EX
Agility: S
Strength: SSS
Mental: C
Perception: S
Leadership: B

[khryoleoz]

I don't think it would be much use against them, If I remember rightly been able to suppress there yoki is part of the controlled Awakening training. If we go by 'Teresa's meeting with Raphaella she will be able to sense them but not to the degree where she can sense there movements, Also if they start to release there yoki it would more than likely overwhelm her senseing seeing as there yoki is as high if not higher than Priscilla's.

If her senseing doesn't work it all comes down to stats and experience, we know that the twins are superior stat wise but we don't know how well they fight or how much hands on experience they have.If they fight 1 on 1 I think it would be an allout fight which the twin would just have the edge, if both twins fought her Teresa's she would't really sand a chance unless the twins where as noobish as Priscilla.
What I don't get is where you get the idea that Teresa couldn't detect Alicia when it is only Beth, the controller, who does the suppressing of her own yoki in order to use soul-link. That Alicia awakens is a 100% release of Yoki, so any predictive reader of yoki, especially Teresa who would be the best of them all, can read it.

[Newhope]

Whic is why I said that the sensible approach would have been to treat her as AO without appetite for guts, i. e. not to send any force at all.

And what message would that send to the rest of the claymores , It's like giveing them all the green light to desert when ever they liked.

In that Teresa might have been forced to release her Youki perhaps.

Releaseing her youki's not really going to help much if she's lost a limb or been stabed though the chest.

[I could see a very cunning base line human beat her, even more so one of the men in black, but I have a very hard time seeing any AB or Claymore beat her in a fight except Priscilla and perhaps black Miria (somewhat tempted to also list Raphaela, but we know nothing about her fighting style)
/QUOTE]

There are a few who could beat her they would be close fights which could go either way.

1. Alicia and Beth. Superior in most departments,youki suppression,partially awakened. Only downside maybe there robot mode.

2.Raphaela. youki suppression,oldest known claymore,Maybe partially awakened,near par stats. Can't really say much more because we haven't seen her fight.

3.Mental stable Priscilla. Near equal stats,youki suppression. If she had a few years to mature and grow she would have equaled or supassed Tereas

4.Riful. She's just to cunning, I think she would notice Terea's yoki senseing fairly quicky and come up with something to counter to it.

[QUOTE]What do you base that on? She made good use of her tail and generally acted smarter than most AB. Clare ripped Rigald apart without any time to get used to her new body so I don't think your theory works in the general case either.
Also I don't base base my evaluation of Teresa on the fact that she was able to beat someone of roughly abyssal strength easily, but on the fact that at >10% she was far stronger than Priscilla at 70%, and that Priscillia in turn is far stronger than the Abyssal ones and AB generally don't seem all that much stronger, on average maybe twice as strong as the original (by which I mean as useful as two of the original fighting together in a fight).

This is what bugs me you seem to think Priscillia was at the peek of her power when she fought Teresa, the fact is she was no where near her peek thats the reason Teresa was so wary of her she knew she would get in her own words "In time she will get incredibly strong", coming from Teresa thats scary.When Priscillia Awakened she gained all that power she would have got plus the extra boost all ABs gain thats what makes her so powerful.

[Newhope]

What I don't get is where you get the idea that Teresa couldn't detect Alicia when it is only Beth, the controller, who does the suppressing of her own yoki in order to use soul-link. That Alicia awakens is a 100% release of Yoki, so any predictive reader of yoki, especially Teresa who would be the best of them all, can read it.

I haven't read it in a while but if I remember rightly youki suppression is needed to synchronize there youki to allow the soul link.

[khryoleoz]

There are a few who could beat her they would be close fights which could go either way.

1. Alicia and Beth. Superior in most departments,youki suppression,partially awakened. Only downside maybe there robot mode.
Superior to whom? Not Teresa! If we go by the org's stats, they're equal in yoki grade. Only Beth does the yoki suppression. Alicia, who would be doing the fighting, would be releasing her yoki whether just partially or fully awakened, which exposes her to Teresa's predictive reading. I should repeat that Teresa went through her warrior career concealing the true nature of her strength. I wouldn't be surprised if the org measured her power based on what Teresa allowed them to measure, and much more lies beneath that equals though I posit surpasses Priscilla's latent abilities.


2.Raphaela. youki suppression,oldest known claymore,Maybe partially awakened,near par stats. Can't really say much more because we haven't seen her fight.
We can leave it at that. But Teresa's yoki and sensing is rated stronger than hers. That would be to Teresa's tactical advantage.

3.Mental stable Priscilla. Near equal stats,youki suppression. If she had a few years to mature and grow she would have equaled or supassed TereasWe've debated this endlessly. The fact is such a Priscilla did not exist. Even if it did, we have only two things validating that. The org's assessment we know is incomplete given that Teresa was keeping secrets about herself from them, enough to cast some reasonable doubt about how well they did know Teresa. The other is Teresa's own expressed doubt. But she also cast that doubt aside. Could she have been wrong? Sure. But where she was wrong is arguable depending on where your persuasion lies.

4.Riful. She's just to cunning, I think she would notice Terea's yoki senseing fairly quicky and come up with something to counter to it.Cunning, sure. She has Duff to keep Teresa's sensing distracted. But Teresa has demonstrated that she is not handicapped by not being to read yoki by fighting the one person who was both the best suppressor of it and who currently has more of it than anyone else.



This is what you bugs me you seem to think Priscillia was at the peek of her power when is fought Teresa, the fact is she was no where near her peek thats the reason Teresa was so wary of her she knew she would get in her own words "In time she will get incredibly strong", coming from Teresa thats scary.When Priscillia Awakened she gained all that power she would have got plus the extra boost all ABs gain thats what makes her so powerful.
But the point is neither was Teresa at her peak. The uneven, imbalanced power ratio of 10:80+ is so revealing because it shows you that with just so little Teresa owned Priscilla who used so much.

I haven't read it in a while but if I remember rightly youki suppression is needed to synchronize there youki to allow the soul link.
But only on the part of the controller, who would be Beth. The one being controlled who would do all of the fighting, which would be Alicia, does a full release of yoki.

[Voracious Reader]

And what message would that send to the rest of the claymores , It's like giveing them all the green light to desert when ever they liked.Better than the alternative. They could just announce a new No 1 and refuse to talk about Teresa at all. Or try to cover the incident up (claim the bandits were killed by someone who want's to smear the Org/ really were disgiused Youma or something like that) and pardon her on the condition that she hunts the AOs down, they'd win either way. All better than No 1-5 dead and a new super-AO.

Releaseing her youki's not really going to help much if she's lost a limb or been stabed though the chest. If she was a normal Claymore, yes. However the speed of healing seems to be influenced even more by the Youki release than by the type (Priscilla; Clare several times when she goes over her limit) and Teresa's Youki is so enormous that I wouldn't even put regenerating an arm beyond her. She should be able to beat them one-armed anyway, though. Only Priscilla was even remotely close to being in her class, and even going to just 20% should scare her into inaction at that point.


There are a few who could beat her they would be close fights which could go either way.
My point was more that there is no correlation between strength and the ability to exploit her weaknesses.


This is what you bugs me you seem to think Priscillia was at the peek of her power when is fought Teresa, the fact is she was no where near her peek thats the reason Teresa was so wary of her she knew she would get in her own words "In time she will get incredibly strong", coming from Teresa thats scary.When Priscillia Awakened she gained all that power she would have got plus the extra boost all ABs gain thats what makes her so powerful.
Sorry, I was conflating overall abilities and youki a bit. I should have been clearer.
She would have become a far better fighter. Sure. (Teresa's skills, as opposed to her raw abilities, weren't THAT impressive either. They probably didn't need to be) I don't think her youki would have increased all that much, though. I don't think she had much physical maturing ahead of her, and I doubt it increases with training (the only working way we have seen is half-awakening). And I don't think AB get all that much of a boost, either. Compare Duff to Galatea, or Ophelia before and after. Or take the fact that Galatea + Miata, both normal #2 level ATM IMO are expected to equal Agatha. Or that Ophelia was able to beat former single digits on her own routinely (two times we have seen, and she always was eager for such fights).
The awakening isn't going to supply the lacking training and experience either, and she didn't seem to do much to rectify that afterwards.

[Voracious Reader]

But Teresa has demonstrated that she is not handicapped by not being to read yoki by fighting the one person who was both the best suppressor of it and who currently has more of it than anyone else.
Actually I disagree with that. She was obviously not used to fighting without being able to read ahead, and it showed in the first part of the fight. At first she barely could keep Priscilla at bay in their 1 on 1 fight, even though she was massively superior in raw abilities. She managed to adjust a bit and completely owned Priscilla after a short while, but her instincts were still all wrong and she kept trying to fight reactively when she really wasn't suited to fight that way without the reading. That allowed Priscilla to wound her later and ultimately contributed to her death.

[khryoleoz]

We'll just have to differ there. The only thing obvious to me is that Teresa relies on her greatest asset until she finds it unreliable. But that's something all people do in common and like most people, she eventually switched tactics. And like any other person, we can expect her to be doing what she is inclined to do by habit. Even so, I wouldn't characterize Teresa as just barely keeping Priscilla at bay. With all that Priscilla was throwing at Teresa, not once was she able to inflict injury upon her until later when she was throwing her monstrous weight around.

In the end, Teresa still bested Priscilla even ultimately without the yoki reading. What killed Teresa wasn't her reliance upon yoki reading. It was a false sense of security that the battle was over. I'll bring up again that Priscilla didn't just strike once to kill Teresa. Priscilla first had to take out her arms, thus completely preventing Teresa from making any defensive maneuver. I don't think it was a matter of whether Teresa couldn't read what Priscilla was about to do. I think it was that she wasn't trying to read anything, thinking that Priscilla had already resigned herself to being executed. Yeah, it shows that even Teresa can be fooled. Irene called it right in that it was Teresa's softness that killed her.

Softness: EX

[Fenrir_valindri]

Teresa's own doubts and Priscilla's unseen potential still leave alot to question, even besting noob Priscilla without using Yoki and besting berserk Priscilla with 10% still only tells us what Teresa herself said; that Priscilla stood no chance at that time.

Teresa's habit of using Yoki-sensing for everything was quite a noticeable handicap when the fight started. Just because Priscilla did not injure Teresa at this time does not mean that Teresa was not in serious danger during this period, the expressions of shock and strain that Teresa showed during this period indicates she was being pressed, until she regained her composure and then reversed the situation on Priscilla.

[khryoleoz]

Being pressed? Not really. She met probably for the first time in her career someone whom she could not put down easily, but let's examine who was on the attack here. It was Priscilla doing the attacking, not Teresa. Was Priscilla fighting to kill? You betcha. Was Priscilla in any way succeeding or coming close to it? That's a resounding no! Teresa's habit can hardly be called a handicap, because at that time that's all Priscilla could give. I'd rather not repeat an unresolved argument about what would have been under different circumstances, had Priscilla been more mature and more experienced. We've beaten that to death with neither of us convincing the other. If Teresa WAS in any serious danger, it would have manifested itself with injuries from which she would have only been spared by intervention outside of Teresa's control. We've never seen this happen. Save for the one opportunity for a sneak attack that Priscilla did not take, an attack that Teresa acknowledges would have gone only so far as to injure her, show me where Priscilla had a chance against Teresa? Teresa's reading predilection can be called a handicap in so far as it didn't work only that one time. But it did not dictate the fight away from her favor. It doesn't matter that I had a 3 second handicap so long as I can finish my 100 yard dash 13 seconds faster than the fastest among my competitors. Teresa was in a similar position.

[Fenrir_valindri]

But we are not talking about a race here, we are talking about a sword fight, and a single second of advantage/disadvantage can spell the end for anyone, Teresa did attempt to strike Priscilla a few times in the fight, and was nearly killed by the return strike.

Teresa wore both a shocked and stunned expression for the first part of the fight, and Priscilla was close to ending Teresa in several of those close calls, in a sword fight injury does not dictate how close the fight was, two expert swordsman can fight each other and not harm a hair on each others heads until the final blow, Teresa was indeed pressed, but her own experience and skill is what saved her life then.

[Tempest35]

Softness? This is the same fight that Teresa nearly decapitated Priscilla if not for Irene blocking the would-be fatal blow, right? Sparing her like that was not softness - it was a whim. A whim she got when she kept imagining Clare in Priscilla's place, which isn't hard to do. Killing someone who went through the same pain you had could never be easy. Her mind just super-imposed Clare in Priscilla's place and she couldn't do it. First time she went for the decap, she also managed to look at Clare's worried face and she turned Priscilla's blade and nearly killed her in that instant. I bet she didn't want to have to explain to Clare as to why she would kill one but leave the other three behind.

Teresa said herself in the ES 1 that she never wanted to have to end up killing a fellow comrade. That, for her, was the most hateful thing. That's why she was almost relieved that Rosemary revealed herself to have Awakened on her own volition. Even in escaping execution, she only temporarily incapacitated her executioners - she never wanted to kill any of them from the get-go.

I see Teresa's aloof attitude as a way to make sure that she'd never be Black Carded by anyone so she would have to go through the situation of killing a comrade before she Awakened.
So yeah Khryoeoz, you're right in saying that Teresa wasn't even trying to read Priscilla at that point because she had thought that Priscilla had already resigned herself to her fate (hence why she completely stopped her youki and her eyes turned back normal). In Teresa's mind, her reasoning for that was 'a human should be excecuted by a human, not a monster'.

And in a fight, someone will sometimes let themselves get hit a few times to lure the enemy into thinking that the fight's in the bag until WHAM. It works - I've done it before. :p And like Fenrir pointed out, Teresa was pressed, even if she didn't take actual damage. Even Noel and Sophia could tell that Teresa was having a hard time figuring out Priscilla. But, as Irene forsaw, Teresa adapted quickly enough to turn the fight. Teresa's inability to read Priscilla's youki is the same trouble Kenshin had against Soujiro when they fought in that Soujiro totally suppressed his emotions/ki and fought in a 'numb' state, a state that Kenshin was almost powerless against until Soujiro himself started to get angry and thus, release his emotions/ki.

[Valduran]

You are right, except for the fact that Teresa HAD softened as proven by the fact that she refrained from killing Priscilla when Priscilla was down and helpless. In the words of Irene "The old Teresa would not have hesitated to take Priscilla's head."

Comrade or no, Teresa would not have refrained from eliminating a serious threat like Priscilla if meeting Clare had not returned her humanity to her.

Also, I'm not sure she was EVER trying to read Priscilla in their final fight. I recall a comment about there being too much Yoki overflow to get any kind of useful reading. I'm fairly certain that she wouldn't have had to actively concentrate on Yoki reading to detect Priscilla's sneak attack if she had been able to detect anything at all.

My guess is she was beating Priscilla through pure overwhelming power and speed. and once she dropped her yoki release level, her reflexes were no longer capable of reacting to Priscilla's attack.

[khryoleoz]

Teresa was pressed because she didn't find the battle as easy as others? That's a pretty low threshold for calling something "being pressed". When you say nearly killed, what kept Teresa from being killed? What saved Teresa from close calls? Was it not all of Teresa's doing? If Teresa managed to get out of them all by her own doing, does that not indicate that she had the situation under her control? I think you view things backwards again. It's Priscilla who was in that situation. Priscilla was the one pressed. It was Priscilla who avoided close calls thanks to Irene, Clare, and finally Teresa.

And yes, softness. When Irene had to save Priscilla, Teresa had a battle mind set then and was instinctively operating in kick ass mode. I'm sure she would have felt really bad afterwards should she have killed Priscilla then. But the situation wherein Teresa was the one left standing amidst the carnage was different. Before you throw the word whim, examine again where Teresa came from up to that point and tell me again whether her sparing Priscilla was just some random act without thought or predisposed motivation. Remember, she says at the time that Clare was on her mind. Was that being whimsical? So she didn't spare Priscilla because she was concerned about Priscilla's welfare. It was by her concern for Clare's welfare that she learned to extend mercy to Priscilla. That's not being capricious at all.

Also, I'm not sure she was EVER trying to read Priscilla in their final fight. I recall a comment about there being too much Yoki overflow to get any kind of useful reading. I'm fairly certain that she wouldn't have had to actively concentrate on Yoki reading to detect Priscilla's sneak attack if she had been able to detect anything at all.
I think that's what they were getting at and it's true. Teresa was always trying to read the yoki flow which is how she finds out that Priscilla was just too overwhelming to read. But she does the most expected and sensible thing once she realizes that and stops doing it and fights using more conventional tactics. Way to go Teresa!

[Tempest35]

Well, I beg to differ with your first statement Valduran. Having compassion should never be seen as weakness, even though it is. Soldiers who have compassion are considered very weak, are they not? Kenshin sort of challenges that idea but he was on a very hard road his entire life and he died because of it - doesn't make him any less of a man in my opinion - one of the best in fact. So much so that I look up to him moreso than many RL people in the world today.

What would you say/do to a soldier fighting in a war, hears a sound and raises his gun on reflex and sees a little girl crying in the bomb-blasted street, holding a ruined teddy bear and he gives pause... Should he shoot her or no? She is the enemy after all... even with the reports of the enemy using children as suicide bombers...should he shoot her? Or spare her? That's an individual judgement call.

Teresa made a similar judgement call. While killing Priscilla would have been 'right' logically, sparing her was also right as well from a moral standpoint. It's just that those who live morally don't always live long...case in point. :heh:

[Fenrir_valindri]

Yes "pressed" when Teresa was showing visible signs of strain avoiding Priscilla's attacks and was initially unable to land a blow on Priscilla either, everyone watching the fight saw that Teresa was clearly out of her comfort zone when they started fighting. The situation did not obviously return under Teresa's control until Teresa scratched Priscilla and Irene decided to intervene.

You seem to be focusing on the part of the fight when Teresa regains her composure, and completely ignoring the shocked and frustrated expression that Teresa wore for a majority of their initial encounter. Teresa was showing several visual cues indicating the fight was not "under control" at the start.

The fact that there where close calls indicates she was pressed, was she even remotely pressed by any of the other 3?
Hell no, except for the one moment when Irene was using her Yoki-enhanced Flash-Sword, Teresa tossed them around like rag-dolls.

[khryoleoz]

Excellent point! So whichever it is I choose, I would likely have done so by some predilection, right? Whether I hated all members of my enemies and shot the girl or held compassion for her, spared her, and find myself blown up as a result, neither was an act of random impulse, a whim as you say? So where can you show me that Teresa spared Priscilla on a whim, without being predisposed to doing it?

On being pressed. You can have that point. The very definition of being pressed involves pressure and there was pressure. I just don't grant to you the degree to which you make it out to be. Priscilla had no chance in hell of even scratching Teresa once they've begun their fight. What Teresa had a hard time with initially was that she was trying to read someone whom she did not know she could not. But she made no strained effort to deflect and evade Priscilla's onslaught as you say. Teresa at this point was making no serious effort to attack Priscilla, only to defend herself. She bought herself the time to figure out where the limits of Priscilla's ability was, and once she found it, it was as easy as pie again. So, yeah, I'd say she had things under control. How could she have gained the advantage otherwise?

What you describe as "close" is only in terms of physical margins by which Teresa evaded at some points, but this is considering that Priscilla had been hyped up as the trump card that would assuredly defeat Teresa by exploiting Teresa's weakness, her reliance upon yoki reading. And by those margins, Priscilla only proved herself to be no match for a battle proven Teresa. No, Priscilla needed to wait for tofu Teresa to emerge.

[Valduran]

@Tempest: Well, erm, I was just stating why Teresa did what she did. By softened I just meant she wasn't cold-hearted anymore. Not sure exactly why what you said disagrees with what I said, but oh well. :heh:

@Fenrir: You are right about her having a bit of trouble. By the looks on her face you could tell that she realised she was in real danger. It was basically the shock of adjusting to not being able to read precise yoki that threw her off balance, but as has been said, her skilled carried her through the few seconds of weakness. So yes, she was pressed at first, fighting defensively just to survive can't really be called anything else, even if you know you can have the situation under control shortly.

[Tempest35]

'Predisposed' eh...That would have to be BC (Before Clare)...:heh:

Okay, let's see if I can get the wording right. Irene said that 'the old Teresa would have killed Priscilla', right?

How long had Irene known Teresa? Months? Years? Certainly much longer than Teresa knew Clare, right? Teresa was known for being merciless to the point of being almost cold-blooded if not for her trademark 'faint smile'.

Teresa didn't know Clare long enough for a 'compassion' disposition to manifest in her personality yet. Because of Clare, Teresa ended up doing things she never had done before, killing humans being one of them, crying is another, and killing youma for free.

Hmm, but since Clare helped Teresa get back in touch with her human emotions and feelings, maybe the disposition was already there, it was just buried under Claymorism. Even so, it had been so long that experiencing the emotions and feelings again must have felt a though she felt them for the first time so I must still call in a whim...

Everything that Teresa did after Clare was more based on her feelings than the doctrine she had been hammered with to produce 'Teresa of the Faint Smile'. She first took Clare away from the village on a whim - She gave her food and a name on a whim - nearly everything Teresa did for Clare was a 'spur of the moment' decision influenced moreso by her feelings than anything else. That's why I say that Teresa's decision to spare Priscilla was on a whim as well when we all know she was perfectly capable and about to do so a few minutes ago before Irene blocked her sword.

...and I realize just how hard it is to make a point like this in a debate ...:heh: Anyway, I hope that helps...somewhat.

PS @ Valduran - it was more of disagreeing with the Teresa 'being soft' point that you made moreso than what you actually said - if that makes sense :heh:. Maybe she had softened, but she wasn't soft because of it, at least not in my book. ^^

[khryoleoz]

I think you've explained it well enough. Teresa started out being human, so we can presume she held moral values and understood justice, compassion, and love. Though a warrior career can cause the repression of those impulses, they are by no means eradicated. Upon meeting Clare, it's reasonable that long forgotten feelings have been triggered and erupted like a volcano, because many things she did do were drastic but not unreasonable. It's not like Teresa didn't have a human side and learned human responses for the first time upon meeting Clare.

[Valduran]

Fair enough. What you are saying is pretty much the way it is...I just wouldn't use the word 'whim'. Seems too...ehh...whimsical. ;)

To me, Whim = doing something based on random thought that pops into your head, not really something that is heavily influenced by strong emotion. Yes, at first allowing Clare to follow her was on a whim, but after the emotional connection of the "tears from silver eyes" moment, her actions concerning Clare became grounded in belief and emotion.

And compared to an average human, Teresa was by no means soft. She just had developed a sense of mercy. Which was basically softened just enough to have a fatal weakness. :(

[chibamonster]

I think Teresa's fight with Priscilla was intentionally left with many ambiguous plot points that will be answered in the future by Clare's journey for revenge. Not knowing leaves a lot more tension for the future encounters.

As I read through the posts and reflect on the actual battle it seems that it was like nothing that had ever happened in the claymore world. Priscilla went on to become the most powerful single being in the entire claymore universe yet she was only able to put 1 scratch on Teresa before the oh so confusing and hurtful final blow. We don't know what Teresa's power was like because we never saw her go past 10% but that was enough to make neigh-abyssal rosemary cry.

If the situation had been even a little different the two could have worked together to take out abyssals and rid the world of ABs permanently. Or they could have awakened and become the two super abyssals. They were so far beyond the power of anything else around that it is difficult to measure, much like the abyssals leave every other AB in the dust.

As I look at the arguments I am noticing a division between what we saw happen, what was said by the characters, and the thought processes by the characters. There are some points that are irrefutable; Teresa defeated 2-5 without a scratch and without releasing her youki. She got 1 cut before Priscilla gave up and begged Teresa to end her life. Priscilla cut off Teresa's head when her youki was down.

Then there are things that were mentioned by other characters. Priscilla has the latent power of a monster. Teresa wasn't sure if she could beat her in the future. Irene sensed 2 insanely huge youki signatures where one was bigger than the other but never said which one. These bits seemed to be dropped intentionally for future confrontations in the story line. They might be like Riful's explanation that Isley defeated Priscilla and might turn out to be something else. There is no clean cut answer and probably won't be until the end. Teresa and Priscilla's extra chapters just seemed to put an exclamation point on all that was said about them by others.

Then there is the realm of things we really don't know but because of our associating with the characters we see ourself in them. I know I do this. For instance, Why did Teresa go to cut off Priscilla's head earlier but not do it later when she had a chance? Was she only going to wound Priscilla like she did to her execution squad or like she later did to Irene, Noella and Sophia? Why did Teresa supress her youki at the end of the fight? Why was Teresa not sure of a future confrontation with Priscilla? Was it because Priscilla was stronger? Was it because Teresa had a fear of her own youki (one of my personal favorites)? Or would it be like the battle between Isley and Luciella where their strength was so close an absolute outcome wasn't possible?

The most trustworthy bits of information are the things that actually happened. The next would be the characters personal thoughts that were shown and last would be our understanding of why characters did the things that were shown or why they thought the things they did.

As much as I hate it, Teresa died. So maybe the most important question for the story now is "why was Teresa and Priscilla's fight set up the way it was" and "what will it mean in the future"? Has Clare inherited enough power from Teresa to battle Priscilla?

[Tempest35]

I'd take the Claymorization process as a severe form of repression. ^^ It's almost as if it makes the girls forget that they are human (which is why we all love Helen for that line that got CUT from the anime ><). It's not just what they are told - it's what they are as well. They are fused with youma flesh - they can't live as normal human girls anymore.
It's as if a light bulb goes off in these girls' heads when someone tells/reminds them that their desires to live and to protect - they are still human, despite being a Claymore.

[Valduran]

Sorry, I'm in the dark here. What line from Helen is that? :heh:

We don't know what Teresa's power was like because we never saw her go past 10% but that was enough to make neigh-abyssal rosemary cry.

I think my favorite Teresa moment ever =

*Rosemary loses arm*
Rosemary: Y...You Bitch! How did you...?

Teresa: It's nothing difficult. I merely twisted that off with my left hand... See, just like this.
*Teresa makes tiny twisting motion with wrist*

Pretty much the ultimate understatement of Teresa's power :D

Interesting post though. You pretty much succinctly defined the things that result in differences of opinions and these big long discussions. Also posed alot of interesting questions that I am eager to have concretely defined by solid info from later chapters in the story. I hope as you say that we get to see alot deeper into what really went on between Teresa and Priscilla.

[Sassarai]

Man... I was expecting some wall o text battles. I'm disappointed. Maybe we need Gooral to emerge from the darkness and engulf the thread.

Insufficient minerals, you will construct additional pylons.

Man, even after death Teresa still gets underestimated.

[Voracious Reader]

Then there are things that were mentioned by other characters. Priscilla has the latent power of a monster. Teresa wasn't sure if she could beat her in the future. Irene sensed 2 insanely huge youki signatures where one was bigger than the other but never said which one.
It seems to me she does:
She asks herself: "No, while both youki (妖気) are off the scale one of them exceeds the other by far. Which one is it?"
And later answers: "Unbelievable! To exceed that absurdly huge power (力) of Priscilla with a youriki (妖力) release just* enough to change the color of her eyes..."

Assuming that 妖気 = 妖力 = 力 in this case seems not entirely unwarranted to me.

* The word just is merely inserted to form an acceptable English sentence, it's not a translation of anything in the Japanese version. Literally it would be "....a release of the degree that her eyes change color".

[Anima]

Oh my God! An intense Teresa discussion with me not being around?! :(
Thank God, the Teresa fans are organized in a way so if someone is asleep, others take the defense. :D

Now seriously, you guys did most of the work so I wont repeat.

chibamonster, good points. I am sure Yagi-sensei is saving some Teresa answers for us.

I think my favorite Teresa moment ever =

*Rosemary loses arm*
Rosemary: Y...You Bitch! How did you...?

Teresa: It's nothing difficult. I merely twisted that off with my left hand... See, just like this.
*Teresa makes tiny twisting motion with wrist*

Pretty much the ultimate understatement of Teresa's power
Agreed! I was in awe and amazement when I saw her wrist twisting motion! Teresa is a monster and I simply love that monster. :bow:
http://a.imagehost.org/0170/teresa_twist.jpg
It seems to me she does:
She asks herself: "No, while both youki (妖気) are off the scale one of them exceeds the other by far. Which one is it?"
And later answers: "Unbelievable! To exceed that absurdly huge power (力) of Priscilla with a youriki (妖力) release just* enough to change the color of her eyes..."

Assuming that 妖気 = 妖力 = 力 in this case seems not entirely unwarranted to me.

* The word just is merely inserted to form an acceptable English sentence, it's not a translation of anything in the Japanese version. Literally it would be "....a release of the degree that her eyes change color".
I thought it was clear that Irene was referring to Teresa's power being superior but I am kinda confused now, do you mean that the original japanese text isn't as clear in what Irene said as an answer to the question?

[Voracious Reader]

I thought it was clear that Irene was referring to Teresa's power being superior but I am kinda confused now, do you mean that the original japanese text isn't as clear in what Irene said as an answer to the question?
The Japanese text isn't any less clear than the English translation in this case. Power could be understood as raw power = youki or as overall power. Context suggests to me that it's raw power.
What I meant to show was that the youki she said was by far exceeding the other earlier was Teresa's.

[Anima]

The Japanese text isn't any less clear than the English translation in this case. Power could be understood as raw power = youki or as overall power. Context suggests to me that it's raw power.
What I meant to show was that the youki she said was by far exceeding the other earlier was Teresa's.
Ah I see. And now the 10% > ~80% is settled.

[Tempest35]

Sorry, I'm in the dark here. What line from Helen is that? :heh:


It's actually an indirect quote from Helen that Deneve tells to Undine during their storage room talk. In the N-Campaign chapters, after they fought the first 3 LOLs.

[khryoleoz]

The Japanese text isn't any less clear than the English translation in this case. Power could be understood as raw power = youki or as overall power. Context suggests to me that it's raw power.
What I meant to show was that the youki she said was by far exceeding the other earlier was Teresa's.
This was an idea I have offered before as well using the same correlation. It's funny how people can agree on one thing and not another.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1275211#post1275211

[Voracious Reader]

This was an idea I have offered before as well using the same correlation. It's funny how people can agree on one thing and not another.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1275211#post1275211
That reminds me about a general point on translations I thought about mentioning here earlier:
It's usually not a good idea to make arguments based on the exact phrasing, let alone the use of a specific word, in a translation.

EDIT: for reference the two translations I'm talking about:
Here's another telling statement. Chapter 23, pg 49, Irene says "I don't believe it. Teresa repelled Priscilla's massive strength using just enough yoma power for her eye color to change. That's the true nature of Teresa's strength." This was not an assessment of Teresa's overall battle prowess, which would be shaped by not just her physicality but the training and experience that does give her the advantage. Irene was very specific about the category of her comparison using the words "strength", "massive", and "yoma power". While I wouldn't preach this as gospel, this statement lends some credibility to the idea that it was Teresa's yoma aura that Irene sensed was far beyond the other.
"Unbelievable! To exceed that absurdly huge power of Priscilla with a youriki release just* enough to change the color of her eyes..."

* The word just is merely inserted to form an acceptable English sentence, it's not a translation of anything in the Japanese version. Literally it would be "....a release of the degree that her eyes change color".

Here we have two translations (Let me be clear on this: the translation you were using is good. I like mine better, but that's only natural) of the same two sentences, and they perfectly demonstrate that point. The phrasing is completely different, and most of the words are different, too. And none of the words you emphasized appear in my version*.
On the other had one critical word appears in both versions: Just. But that is purely an artifact of the translation and has no basis in the Japanese sentence whatsoever. You might be inclined to think that this is a minor change, but for the purposes of this thread it's quite important. The version with just implies that she was at exactly 10%, but based on the Japanese sentence one could theoretically argue that she was at 29%, just short of showing changes in her face. (I would not agree with that and see various reasons why she probably was closer to 10% than to 30%, but that's neither here nor there)
Most translators care little whether people on web forums can divine the right bits of info from their exact word choices and focus on understandability, naturalness and delivering good lines instead (along with general accuracy and perhaps getting as many words done per hour as possible ). Even if you try to preserve all information in the original and avoid adding anything new that's not particularly easy. You have to make some trade-offs or you will just end up with Japanese partially encrypted with a word replacement code. And that's of no use to anyone.

*Admittedly I cheated by chickening out of translating youriki. The reason is simple: Youriki is very similar to youki, sometimes even used interchangeably. Youki is a common word on this forum and therefore would be the closest "translation", followed by things like youki power/energy, and yes, youma power, but I have an aversion against translating one word from a certain language with another word from the same language. The only other alternative would be demonic power/energy, but that would necessitate translating youma as demon to stay consistent, and this is not done here. So the only possible choice is to keep youriki untranslated just like youki and youma.

[irvinethearcher]

To the "why did theresa die" thing:

irene:
I've been afraid. The fear i experienced that day still has not left my body.
clare:
you said i should have forgotten everything and lived as a human but...
there is no way i could do that. At that time theresa was everything to me. Everything i lost... my life, my voice, even my joy in living... theresa gave those back to me. So i had no choice to move forward. I wasn't strong enough to forgott all that and go on living.
irene:
i see, that is how it is. Seeing the same thing at that time and place either moving forward or running away, i suppose that's what separates those who are fit for battle from those who are not You think theresa's death is your fault? It's true in one sense. When you met theresa and started traveling together her strength as a warrior definitely declined. Theresa had plenty of chances to kill priscilla. The reason she didn't was that after beeing with you, theresa's heart lost the toughness of a warrior. After she met you, she was no longer fit for battle that's why she died.

i think these are the most important passages...

[Fate_Archer]

"Ability declaration: The values are estimates in comparison to warriors. Assessment A<SSS. Ex signifies a capacity so enormous that it defies estimation. + indicates that utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value."

Yeah, as I thought, the scale is definitely the same.
We now know that the awakened beings stats are evaluated comparing with warriors (Claymores), this can also possibly answer the questions about from where the Org takes these evaluations about their warriors, the answer is probably in the warriors themselves, they are probably used as reference in the Claymore stats as well.
Going even further, I would speculate that the evaluation of yoki (at least) is trusted to a warrior capable of precise yoki readings, probably their eye (only way to evaluate this particular stat, MIB's can't sense yoki). Galatea described Miria as a strong warrior, Helen as an average and Clare as a weak warrior based on their yoki (it also hints that the grade level for an average warrior is around C or B based on Helen's yoki, B or A to a strong warrior based on Miria's yoki).
The other stats, Strength, Agility/Dexterity, Mental, Leadership and even Sensing can be evaluated through observations or tests, the MIB's are probably responsible for the collection of these datas, handlers must have obligations concerning their respective Claymore's potentials, levels and observations.
We saw several times handlers observing Claymore's battles, outcomes or actions, or even designing Claymores to observe other Claymores, it probably happens with some frequency.
Claymores even gain nicknames according to their performance in battles or techniques that they possess, these nicknames aren't there because there is no one watching them fighting.

Not that the stats make much sense. Awakened Katia being on the same level as Teresa?

She was really a weak one, and by this same reason she was killed right after she awakened.
Even with stats apparently similar, I don't think Teresa would have a hard time defeating Katea, even though I suspect about Rosemary's level, Rosemary who was former #2 would be much stronger than Katea who was #32, even coming from distinct generations, the gap between their ranks is too great and besides, there is nothing special on both (with that said, we can reach an agreement that even though we don't know much about Rosemary, she was stronger than Katea).

It's part of our knowledge that AB's use their yoki to maintain their forms, so it's safe to say that their evaluation corresponds or at least is very close to their maximum power (100% or something very close with the only exception being Priscilla because she constantly breaks rules about this subject).
Well, I really don't need to explain why Teresa would win against Katea but anyway...

If Teresa is not on careless mode, like she was with Priscilla or even against Rosemary, I think her head would still be linked to her neck.
Using preemptive senses, Katea's superior speed (S grade) wouldn't be enough to penetrate Teresa's defenses.
Since Claymores don't need to use yoki to maintain their forms, unlike AB's, instead they can use it to enhance some of their other stats, Teresa's agility could match or even surpass Katea's if Teresa were using her S grade yoki to increase her own agility.
Katea's hardness and strength are A, that's Claymore scale, with that hardness she would be an easy foe (she was easily squashed by Duff aswell, but Duff has SSS+ in strength, so that's not very relevant).

Even with this apparent discrepancy, the most obvious outcome is still the same.

One other factor that may considerably influence a fight between an AB and a Claymore (one on one) is the technique factor.
For example, Clare's QuickSword can turn AB's skin with S grade in hardness into peaces in a few seconds.
Jean's twisting arm technique is a one-hit-KO for most of the awakened beings around.
I can definitely see Galatea easily taking down awakened beings that couldn't land a single hit on her. They may discover her technique, but they would only be safe if it wasn't too late, Duff, an overwhelming strong AB lost one hand and was constantly pressed during the beginning of the fight, even though his stats are overwhelming superior compared to any Claymore.
Techniques play a great role on fights against AB's.

If we think well about the many factors that may influence a battle, and add them to the stats, things begin to make real sense.

Or the fact that the accompanying text for Ophelia is a recap of the speculation in scene 41. How can they possibly have gathered any information on her abilities when they don't even know Clare killed her?

They found Ophelia's dead body, or the rest of it. The autopsy of it could be enough to vaguely estimate her overral stats.
They could even estimate about Ophelia just by looking at her powers when she was a Claymore.
Even though they are not sure about what happened between Clare and Ophelia, Rubel stated that if there was a chance of Clare winning awakened Ophelia, then it is very close to 0. So even against all odds, it's a possibility and the most obvious one to have happened for them, given the traces found(Clare's new arm + Ophelia in peaces).

By the way, the 4th stat from above (in place of mental for Claymores) is hardness.

Yeah, we know that. ;)

Nope. The closest I could find was "compared to warriors their power is on a different level" as a caption at the start of the stats section (II-3 C), but I wouldn't put too much stock in that. Nothing about a bonus for reaching 100% anywhere as far as I can see.

I see.
Well, it seems that this subject will still be target of more speculations, since there is no concret answer.

Priscilla's and Ophelia's case, specially Priscilla's, indicate a huge bonus to overral power and yoki after they reach 100% and totally awaken.
In Priscilla's case, her yoki that was evaluated as A level with possibilities to expand to even greater levels, jumped to EX, a level so overwhelming that can't even be estimated.
Her awakening indicates a ridiculous power up on yoki and her overral stats, but Priscilla's case could be an exception, it is said that when she awakened, all her latent powers were unleashed.
There is no doubt that Priscilla as an AB is a completly different being in another completly different level.

Well, thanks again for all the answers Voracious Reader. :)
(sorry for the late reply as well)

That's one way it could make sense. But I like to dissect the translated explanation of +. Even with this more direct translation, "+ is a (power/force/faculty) that can, according to the (situation/circumstances), be (used/displayed) (successfully/to great effect/effectively), not an intermediate value," it is speaking of how effectively the power can be used under certain conditions. The + proceeding the letter grade acts as a qualifier that suggests that the power is effectively used at that level depending on conditions. Otherwise, it designates an unknown value to which the warrior can elevate that power. If that were the case, C+ can potentially be better than A+. Also, the effective use of power suggests that it is a power that the warrior can use within her limits. Using a power that sends one over her limits is not considered an effective use of it when it is generally accepted that there is no returning save for the few who experience the semi-awakening phenomenon. I haven't seen the graphs myself. If somebody can PM me where I can view them, that might help me grasp things better.

Well, first but not most importantly, that was Voracious Reader's direct translation. I'm not sure, but in a language where verbs or other words are constantly elided, context and interpretation plays a lot to the unsderstanding of a single and vague sentence (Hope the Japanese masters don't pick me up on this one :p).
His interpretation was what generated all this discussion about the "+" variable.

Now to the main points, your interpretation is the least possible as far as I can see.
The most probable interpretation, in a context where powers can still be variably pushed to even upper limits, half-awakening, latent potential and great talents are always added in the equation, is that this "+" is the only signal that can symbolize these unknown factor that can't be exactly estimated.
Besides, a "+" next to anything means exactly what is intended to be, it designates something more. A "+" is not the kind of symbol used to limit or make constraints.

Now the stats make much more sense to me, we have been seeing Claymores possessing the innate ability to develop their capabilities, even when they seem to be right on their limits.
Stats would be pointless if they can't illustrate and symbolize how the reality is really like.
A Claymore that has a talent exceptionally great in a certain area of her abilities can't be evaluated decisively if there is potential for progress. But if the capability of further development or enhancement exist, it can't be ignored either. That's where the "+" come in.
The same "+" used to symbolize this unknown factor or circumstance, can be used in the evaluation of half-awakened that can't be evaluated decisively due to their enhanced potential achieved by being close to awakening.

Most of the half-awakened have "+" on their stats (specially yoki). Miria has a "+" in yoki and speed (leadership doesn't count in this context); both Helen and Deneve have a "+" in yoki as well.
Alicia and Beth have more "+" in their stats than anyone, except for Priscilla. Seems that their half-awakened condition makes them everytime stronger.

Great talents in certain areas also are evaluated with a "+", Galatea's yoki sensing is evaluated as A only at worst.
Depending on the circumstances or conditions, like the opponents yoki nature, the distance, the technique she is using, her focus or concentration, or even an abyssal fight happening on the other side of the continent, her senses may surpass her common grade.
It explains why Galatea's senses seem much greater and better compared to Teresa's.
I'm yet to see (and I probably won't since Teresa is dead) Teresa showing something that Galatea can't with sensing abilities.
It's pretty much the opposite actually. I also believe that with Galatea's new condition, her senses are not evaluated as A+ anymore.

Priscilla has "+" all around her stats. It translates all the potential that she could have developed as a Claymrore, if she hadn't awakened.

Besides Galatea, who strongly prove that S may not be better than A+ sometimes, a "+" accompanying a stat is very significant.

Jean's A+ on mental could retain her conscious with a body almost totally if not completely awakened. The circumstance for Jean's case was her wish and her strong will to not die as a monster.
Clare that never wondered if it could be possible for her to control her berserk arm in the QuickSword technique, was inspired by Jean's self-control. That led her to not only achieve a better control of the QuickSword, but to create a new technique, the QuickSword guided by the preemptive senses.

Irene, the creator of such fierce technique, could control it like anyone else. She could direct the swings of such berserk to where she wanted at anytime. She had an A+ at mental as well.

Deneve's mental enabled her to voluntarily pass her limits and go back again. Her mental is evaluated as a C+.
On a side note, mental is a really important stat. Some people say that "power is nothing without control". Mental is definitely the stat that enables the use of great powers.

Clare's sense, another C+, can enable her to perform the preemptive technique according to the circumstances (pressure, concentration, danger, etc..), a technique that needs great level of sensing skills.

All these intangible qualities, or rather immeasurable factors can now have some meaning with this definition of "+".

And well, yes C+ may be equal or maybe even better than A+ depending on the circumstances.
Clare sensed that Galatea was watching her after all, that is a concrete proof that Clare's senses achieved a level almost as great as Galatea's at that time. ;)

btw, did someone already PMed you with the graphs?

Not if the + follows the condition as I understand it. That would put Teresa greater still. If the databooks can close that open question that Voracious Reader brings up, it would put an end to differing takes of the issue.

I'm just waiting the confirmation on the manga.
lol, I wonder when it will happen. :heh:
Even Alicia demonstrated great sensing abilities that Teresa is not capable of.

But they are hard trained and they are like clare, helen, miria and deneve half-awakened. And after the rosemary thing there are still spekulations about theresa hiding some of her power. If you look at the translated databook theresa page you can see, that the org believed theresas lie about rosemaries death. According to this the org calculated her stats without having the knowlledge of the rosemarie - theresa fight.
You're totally right about the stats thing but i thing the org didn't know the entire truth at the moment they calculated the stats and theresa was carefull enough not to show them what she really was capable of.

They may not know about Rosemary's fight, but if Rosemary is not so strong as most people like to think and as I believe she isn't, then there isn't much relevance.
We need to know Rosemary's stats, just looking at Extra Scene 4 and comparing her to other strong AB or even Priscilla, she seems weak.

I will go as far to guess about her possible stats as an AB:

Rosemary: 77th generation No. 2 (Eliminated)

Yoki: SSS (she was number #1 after all, and yoki is one of the most important criteria)
Agility: S or S+ (huge and strangely built body, it definitely doesn't strike you as the fastest of things)
Strength: SS or SSS (that's fine I guess, we haven't seen something really impressive coming from her, and just judging from her body and size this evaluation seems perfectly fine I think, with SSS at best)
Hardness: S or S+ (fragile and thin arms with places possibly being harder around her body, like Duff's skin)
Intelligence: S or SS (Not exceptionaly cunning or intelligent, actually her jealous seems to blind completely her senses)

Very plausible I think.
A Claymore with Teresa's caliber could really deal with something like this, aside from strength and yoki it is your typical average AB.

For the ones that think Rosemary is abyssal class, check here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=56339&page=35#post1306935) (don't need to read the full post, only the arguments directed to the first quote).
Yeah, Rosemary deserves to be pwned, both by Teresa and by me. :p

About Teresa's softness:

Softness: EX

I'm sorry for this khryoleoz, but I question how far her softness attribute would go.
I mean, Teresa is indeed a great character and all, but mercilessly killing all those bandits like she did does not contribute to her kind-hearted fame.
There are people who would agree with Teresa's resolution, but there are also people who would think that it's not the most ethical or universal thing to do.

Anyway, that's not the place to discuss this, but I would give to Teresa's softness SS+ (with possibility to advance further depending on the circumstances). :p
Galatea is the one who deserves EX at softness. :heh:
(actually, thinking well, I agree with myself on these 2 last lazy lines)

Ah I see. And now the 10% > ~80% is settled.

Ok, I acknowledge the enhancement by Teresa's yoki being much stronger than the enhancement of an A level yoki, but there are more factors to count before merely saying that 10% Teresa>70~79% Priscilla.

First, among many uses, yoki mainly acts as an enhacement to a Claymore's other stats, particularly agility and strength.

Looking at the nature of the scene as well, we may realize that Teresa took the offensive role and appeared behind Priscilla, so one could say that Teresa had the initiative.
It was not like a fair "tug-of-war" so to speak. Priscilla at 70% could and did easily push Teresa away as well.

Even so, what is relevant to analyze this time:

Teresa

Yoki: S
Strength: A
Agility: A

-----

Priscilla

Yoki: A+
Strength: B+
Agility: A+

It basically means that Teresa using her A grade strength enhanced by about 10% of her S grade yoki is strong enough to push Priscilla's B+ strength enhanced by about 70% of her A+ grade yoki.
Really impressive, most importantly, it shows the gap between A and S grades. It seems that Priscilla couldn't push her yoki to a level above her A this time.
While we can't say how much strength and agility Priscilla was using, their yokis were in totally different levels. To Teresa so easily best Priscilla on both agility and strength with her S grade yoki, then Priscilla's yoki level was definitely (obviously) in an inferior level, which we can assume that it was enhancing both her agility and her strength in A grade factor.

It also shows that A+ is not everytime better than S, the power may be effectively improved depending on the circumstances. Possibility here.
If it's not, it stays on its normal level.

I've been busy with enrollment stuff (and enjoying my last days before I start college :p), but it seems that I can't leave this thread for much time, or else Teresa fans will cause mayhem and spread chaos to the Claymore power levels. :uhoh:

[Anima]

Or the fact that the accompanying text for Ophelia is a recap of the speculation in scene 41. How can they possibly have gathered any information on her abilities when they don't even know Clare killed her?
They found Ophelia's dead body, or the rest of it. The autopsy of it could be enough to vaguely estimate her overral stats.
They could even estimate about Ophelia just by looking at her powers when she was a Claymore.
How did this slip through from me? Aren't those databooks supposed to be the reports generated by the Org? Now I see this as a serious threat to the authenticity and legitimacy of all those stats listed by the Org as it show they didn't gather accurate data. While we don't know much about the anatomy of claymores, I've came to the conclusion that yoki is assumed to not survive death because of the trick Miria did in the war of the north and it led to their survival and ABs thinking they were dead because of the aura suppression pills taking effect. Even if Yoki was still there, how can they measure things like agility, strength, etc by an autopsy? As for basing their AB rating on the Claymore, I don't see this possible unless somehow, magically, the org could measure a warrior's potential so accurately (let alone measuring any of it in the first place).

As for the Rosemary debate, I agree we need some solid information to build our discussion on and you do have some points but there is one thing that we should remember, Teresa released 10% immediately when she started fighting back and quickly sealed the deal while in Priscilla's case she held her ground against the 80% Priscilla without releasing yoki until she got injured. This must give you an indication that Rosemary was something or otherwise Teresa wouldn't release 10% yoki. I am sure that Priscilla is superior to Rosemary but saying that Rosemary isn't #1 material is a bit harsh when you can't base your argument on solid facts.

Looking at the nature of the scene as well, we may realize that Teresa took the offensive role and appeared behind Priscilla, so one could say that Teresa had the initiative.
It was not like a fair "tug-of-war" so to speak. Priscilla at 70% could and did easily push Teresa away as well.
Sorry, but I'd like you to review that scene again. You will see that Priscilla had the initiative at the begining and 80% Priscilla (I believe it was ~80% not 70%) could only push Teresa away when Teresa hadn't released any yoki yet and she wasn't well prepared (pushing Clare away and taking the fight stand). The moment Teresa released that 10%, Priscilla was put off league and if you see that scene you will see Teresa using one arm for defense and offense most of the time. And also keep in mind, that Teresa could have easily killed 80% Priscilla SO many times but because of her softness, she lost her head.

I don't know why you took the effort to analyze my 10%>80% statement to just get the same result :p

Even Alicia demonstrated great sensing abilities that Teresa is not capable of.
How can you tell that? I suppose you are referring to Alicia sensing Riful's power, right? Come to think of it, Teresa was able to tell how much yoki Priscilla was releasing so you can't really say Alicia is better than Teresa in that regard (yet?).

I've been busy with enrollment stuff (and enjoying my last days before I start college ), but it seems that I can't leave this thread for much time, or else Teresa fans will cause mayhem and spread chaos to the Claymore power levels.
Haha, fear not! Unless Yagi-sensei give us some chapters to convince us that Teresa is as weak as you are trying to depict here, we wont surrender to you :p
Oh and comparing Teresa with Katea?! Man, I wont forgive you for this.. EVER! :mad:

[chibamonster]

I'm with you face smasher. I love Teresa.

I always figured the data books were extra marketing device / product to sell more merchandise. You know, for the ultimate collector sort of thing. Like a statue or something. They have some very interesting parts in them that make them fun to look through. It's not like they have any serious impact on the story itself. Just being stronger in claymore doesn't mean you will win as in AB Ophelia fighting Clare. It isn't like the mangaka is now somehow constrained by the data books. Most of the main characters are progressing as well by bending the rules (half awakening or blindness for example).

I am still curious, does anyone know how much input Yagi had on the data books? Does it say anywhere in the data books?

[Valduran]

lol, what are we? Teresa's army? :D

My input: Rosemary was THE #1 before Teresa came along. That's why she was so pissed, because Teresa stole her rank.

Imo, she may have not been the most uber #1 ever, but the fact that she WAS #1 means she most certainly was abyssal material. Probably the weakest abyssal though. ^^

And when an abyssal says "W...wait...wait a second. Wh...what is this crazy yoma energy?!" about a 10% yoki release from a Half-Human Claymore and then dies instantly, you pretty much know that whatever killed her is far above and beyond abyssal level.

Safe to say probably even current Priscilla would have little chance against awakened Teresa.

In your post about Rosemary, Fate_archer, you compared Rosemary to Priscilla to show how weak she is. But that's not a good comparison, Priscilla easily defeated even Isley. If oblivious Priscilla can take out Isley(who was a STRONG #1) in seconds, yet was only able to slightly scratch Teresa, you really wouldn't expect much more out of Rosemary than dying instantly.

[Voracious Reader]

I am still curious, does anyone know how much input Yagi had on the data books? Does it say anywhere in the data books?
The data books are entirely in character, so no info. Couldn't find it anywhere else either; the only place where Claymore seems to be discussed actively in Japanese appears to be 2chan [they are on the 15th incarnation of the power level discussion thread, endlessly arguing Teresa vs Priscilla and whether Rosemarie was Abyssal level, the previous threads each having reached 1000 posts], but there is nothing in the current threads and 2chan archives are pay only, and I'm not going to pay 33$ for access to a message board where I don't even post.

[chibamonster]

The data books are entirely in character, so no info. Couldn't find it anywhere else either; the only place where Claymore seems to be discussed actively in Japanese appears to be 2chan [they are on the 15th incarnation of the power level discussion thread, endlessly arguing Teresa vs Priscilla and whether Rosemarie was Abyssal level, the previous threads each having reached 1000 posts], but 2chan archives are pay only, and I'm not going to pay 33$ for access to a message board where I don't even post.

BWAHAHAH! I guess the Teresa vs. Priscilla power level and the Rosemary extra chapter discussion's aren't just because of differences in translations :p Somehow that makes me happy. Behold Valduran and FaceSmasher! There be allies to our army on every shore! I can't imagine that Teresa would need an army but that isn't going to stop me.

Thanks for looking that up Voracious! That is interesting it is not anywhere visible. I'd imagine if he had a lot to do with it he probably would be credited to push sales. I have absolutely no evidence for that. It is just what I imagine.

[Anima]

lol, what are we? Teresa's army? :D
You bet! :D

Imo, she may have not been the most uber #1 ever, but the fact that she WAS #1 means she most certainly was abyssal material. Probably the weakest abyssal though. ^^
You know even assuming that she was the weakest abyssal is still premature imo. Until that rumored extra scene which will feature Teresa vs. Isley (or any abyssal for that matter) is out (if ever), the final judgment of Rosemary being abyssal or not will be based on speculations unless something else gave solid facts. But either way, this wont change my view of Teresa being THE strongest Claymore. :D

[Valduran]

Cool! So do we like get official club buttons? Tee-shirts? A flag?!

But, heh...how powerful Rosemary was is definately open for debate. I'm just operating under the assumption that the definition of abyssal is "awakened former #1".

[Tempest35]

I'm not quite so sure of that one myself...there have been quite a few #1s in the ORG's history, that is no doubt.

Here's a reason why I think that Rosemary was not Abyssal-level:

Priscilla, at 80%, was releasing comparable youki to Awakened Rosemary had when they both fought Teresa respectively. Between Teresa and Priscilla, just their youki release factors were enough to best many Awakened Beings for youki, let alone either of them completely Awakening.

If Teresa had Awakened as well, she too would have surpassed the Abyssals, but not as much as Priscilla currently does thanks to Isley knocking out the last mental barriers. Way to go Isley...-_-

So Rosemary most likely would have been stronger than Rigaldo, but by that same token, would have been stomped (literally) by Isley or Riful or Lucelia. Rosemary's best fight would have been against Lucelia but that's the closest Abyssal match-up for her since Lucelia was considered the weakest of the Abyssals herself. And since I doubt that Rosemary's Claymore stats were released, we can't stack her against Raphaela to make a comparison.

One thing's for sure, A claymore must have at least an 'A' rating in youki to even make it into the top 3, much less be considered to Awaken as an Abyssal.

[Valduran]

Well, just because she would be significantly weaker than any of the abyssals doesn't mean she wouldn't be one herself. The only real definition of 'Abyssal One' is an awakened former No. 1. So by that definition she qualifies.

Everyone has been arguing based on power level. But even by that standard she still qualifies. Rosemary was probably one of the strongest ABs out there. Certainly stronger than #2s like Rigardo and Agatha. And if the 3 established abyssals are the only ABs stronger than Rosemary, I really think the Org would consider her one as well.

Of course, it really is impossible for any of us to tell for sure since Teresa makes such a horrible measuring stick to determine someone's power, and she is the only one we have.

But what do you mean Teresa would not have surpassed the abyssal's as much as Priscilla currently does? Teresa proved herself to be infinately more powerful than Priscilla at their encounter. The only proof we have that Awakened Priscilla is or ever could be a match for Teresa is Teresa's own thoughts considering her potential to be that of a monster and wondering if she would be able to defeat her in the future. But even Teresa didn't say for sure that Priscilla would one day surpass her, and she was the only one who could have said anything on the matter with any fair amount of certainty.

(Also note, as was stated above, there is no proof that the databooks are truely accurate. Unless the data contained within comes directly from Yagi, they don't really count.)

[BaalChaamon]

I'm not quite so sure of that one myself...there have been quite a few #1s in the ORG's history, that is no doubt.

Here's a reason why I think that Rosemary was not Abyssal-level:

Priscilla, at 80%, was releasing comparable youki to Awakened Rosemary had when they both fought Teresa respectively. Between Teresa and Priscilla, just their youki release factors were enough to best many Awakened Beings for youki, let alone either of them completely Awakening.

If Teresa had Awakened as well, she too would have surpassed the Abyssals, but not as much as Priscilla currently does thanks to Isley knocking out the last mental barriers. Way to go Isley...-_-

So Rosemary most likely would have been stronger than Rigaldo, but by that same token, would have been stomped (literally) by Isley or Riful or Lucelia. Rosemary's best fight would have been against Lucelia but that's the closest Abyssal match-up for her since Lucelia was considered the weakest of the Abyssals herself. And since I doubt that Rosemary's Claymore stats were released, we can't stack her against Raphaela to make a comparison.

One thing's for sure, A claymore must have at least an 'A' rating in youki to even make it into the top 3, much less be considered to Awaken as an Abyssal.

I'm still undecided on the issue if Rosemary is worthy of being rewarded Abyssal status or not and will refrain from making a judgement on farfetched assumptions. Only this much, you cannot compare her (or any other Abyssal One) to Teresa and Priscilla.Those two are completely and utterly in a league of their own. However I am inclined to give Rosemary some credit for having an amazing, sleek, alienesque design and making Teresa bleed.

Why are assuming that Luciela is the weakest of the Abyssal Ones?There is no evidence whatsoever that speaks in favour of your argument. On the contrary, I see her on par with Isley, who was unable to hunt her after their fight and was, as Riful said, near death himself. This sounds like their powers were pretty even, but I do get a feeling that Isley might be portraited in a more composed demeanour in the face of his (yet another) near death experience, simply for reasons of putting all the girls in Claymore in their place. Do I sense a little bit of a chauvinistic streak in this?:p

[Valduran]

I agree. Isley and Luciela appear to be equal.

I think all 3 are basically equal. But Riful is slightly stronger IMO :cool:

[BaalChaamon]

I agree. Isley and Luciela appear to be equal.

I think all 3 are basically equal. But Riful is slightly stronger IMO :cool:

Not just that, but she is extremely cunning too.Not to mention her Abyssal form which has hypnotising capabilities!:eyespin:

[Tempest35]

I say that Lucelia was the weakest amongst them because of what Rubel mentioned to Raphaela just after Lucelia Awakened. If any of the three were to make moves, the first one to die, by his estimate, would have been Lucelia and he turned out to be correct.

[chibamonster]

Not just that, but she is extremely cunning too.Not to mention her Abyssal form which has hypnotising capabilities!:eyespin:

Like Hula dancing.

[Valduran]

I say that Lucelia was the weakest amongst them because of what Rubel mentioned to Raphaela just after Lucelia Awakened. If any of the three were to make moves, the first one to die, by his estimate, would have been Lucelia and he turned out to be correct.

Good point. But I think that's more because she was the least cunning and ambitious. In terms of personal power we never really saw any difference between the two. Although, Luciela's awakened form was certainly less impressive than Isley's, so one might be forgiven for thinking she was weaker. ;)

Like Hula dancing.
Scary :twitch:

[Gooral]

(...)Priscilla, at 80%, was releasing comparable youki to Awakened Rosemary had when they both fought Teresa respectively. Between Teresa and Priscilla, just their youki release factors were enough to best many Awakened Beings for youki, let alone either of them completely Awakening.(...)
Priscilla at 80% motivated Teresa to make a use of 10% of her demon energy, Rosemary was only an exercise to her, a sparring partner, an alleviation of her frustration, a child to beat, (unecessary cross out). She didn't have to release youki at all to defeat her, only chose so because she felt like it. Maybe she wanted Rosemary to know that it wasn't just MiB's whim nor their mistake (that Teresa became #1) so she could have a few seconds to regret of what she did and die with knowledge it wasn't lucky shot that killed her but humongous gap which could never be overcomed.
If Teresa had Awakened as well, she too would have surpassed the Abyssals, but not as much as Priscilla currently does thanks to Isley knocking out the last mental barriers. Way to go Isley...-_-
Mental barrier - yeah right. As if keeping such enormous youki supressed (even unconsciously) would be that easy once n00b awakened, lol. Definitely at the time Prissy awakened she had all of her power in her disposition, when Isley met her she wasn't the same Priscilla who killed Teresa.

Sassarai: I'm shutting up now ;P.

[FateAnomaly]

I think some time after the Teresa incident, Priscilla managed to regain human thoughts and she deeply regreted her actions on that day. So her mind went into a state of denial and she blanked out all her memories and assumed a human form.

[khryoleoz]

I rather liked Luciela. It's too bad her screen time had been rather short. So far we've seen no other kitty cat. Well, except maybe for "him" but that's no kitty cat.

It's also a relief to know the Teresa camp, the Faint Smile faction, has allies overseas and that we're not merely duped by translation faults.

RE: Fate_Archer's response, I understand that in terms of standard usage, a "+" is normally used to denote "plus more". But the symbol can be used for other purposes. In music a + after a chord symbol designates a specific alteration of the fifth degree, not that there are more notes to be added to the chord. Similarly, the databooks' author(s) qualified and explained the use of that "+" in a certain way. So unless we are going to reject or find fault in that translation, and right now it's not apparent to me that Voracious Reader is intently lying in order to propagate falsehoods and dupe unwitting readers such as I, I find no reason for me to doubt the translation. In fairness, Voracious Reader seems to share your view about this issue. I'm simply using the single source I do have which comes from Voracious Reader's translation of an original source, that source itself being in want of some clarity. Otherwise, I wouldn't be having this problem.

With regard to context, you went to great lengths to explain something that I do understand and am well aware of. The problem I have with the position still is that it makes it necessary to account for half-awakenings as if it was normal in order to contextualize how it is that those warriors who have undergone half-awakenings can tap into the upper levels of their power. If the stats are done "in character", then I don't think the org measured their warriors expecting anyone with some capacity to return after having gone over their "limits". So where a warrior's power is considered effective is within those limits. I just don't think that we can take special cases and treat them as though they were the norm. If what happened with the Fab 4 and Jean were normal occurrences, there wouldn't be any surprise by those who are witness to it. Half-awakenings, like Awakenings, will undoubtedly result in increase in power and abilities. I just wouldn't call the phenomenon normal...yet.

The way I read the + designations of those who have them is this.

* Miria's A+ Agility. It makes sense that under the conditions wherein she performs the phantom mirage, this ability is A. We can expect her Yoki to be at B when she does her speed bursts because she uses a lot of it.
* Jean's B strength makes sense when she does her DrillSword. It also seems she is recognized as having mental toughness, and her awakening experience is a demonstration of this.
* Sensing. We can expect that A is the level at which Galatea's sensing operates when she's performing the functions of an eye. Alicia is shown to be able to do that too. But if S is supposed to stand for special, and not necessarily better, then it makes sense why Teresa's is S by being the special user of the predictive sensing ability. Read that guys? I am finally saying that Teresa is not necessarily the best at sensing. Now I'm saying only the most special.
* Priscilla. Because she suppresses her yoki most if not all of the time, it makes sense that the org measures it at A, and it would be at this level only in times when she is not suppressing it. Her agility is A depending upon the application of her combat maneuvers. Her strength is B, which is why she is overwhelmed by Teresa. Her sense is A, and probably has the same range and depth and detail as Galatea.
* Irene's mental is A when using her QuickSword.
* Alicia and Beth. Unique. I think that says it all. These two operate differently. If S is to mean special and on a different level, then it makes sense that their yoki is S because their design was different. The rest of their attributes are A. They are at this level on the condition that they are operating in soul-link. Why their grades is not on the AB scale is likely because they are considered warriors and not ABs, even though what Alicia physically does is awaken.

I don't recall clearly, but how do the Claymore and AB scales correspond in their values?

I realize that I might just be reading things all wrong. I don't really hold fast to my position. Right now I'm just simply exercising my argumentation, which is admittedly weak.

[Tempest35]

Well, theoretically, a Claymore COULD have youki up to an SS but it seems that the ORG's scale has the 'S' rating as the highest a Claymore can achieve - as a human. Since ABs are just Awakened Claymores, why not just continue the scale to include them as well?

Remember the Claymore from Jean's team that Riful made Awaken and Duff squished soon after? Her AB stats were pathetic. She was just barely as strong as Galatea, if that much.

And Jean's mental rating should be 'S' definitely. :D

[BaalChaamon]

Well, theoretically, a Claymore COULD have youki up to an SS but it seems that the ORG's scale has the 'S' rating as the highest a Claymore can achieve - as a human. Since ABs are just Awakened Claymores, why not just continue the scale to include them as well?

Remember the Claymore from Jean's team that Riful made Awaken and Duff squished soon after? Her AB stats were pathetic. She was just barely as strong as Galatea, if that much.

And Jean's mental rating should be 'S' definitely. :D

Awww leave Katea alone. I rather liked her and her awakened form was nicely done. But what can you expect from a 30 something warrior? I wonder what stats Jean had as an AB and if her strength and stats were in any way supressed or restrained due to her strong will to remain to human till the end, thus preventing her from unleashing the full extend of her awakening.

I could imagine that the use and onslaught of awakening is a process that requires both a mental as well as a physical 'willingness' (i couldnt think of a more appropriate word) to awaken. Regardless if the Claymore struggled during the inital stages of unleashing her Yoki, once the threshold is passed her mind becomes that of a Yoma and only our Half-awakend bunch and Jean have shown the willpower to restrain the beast within themselves. The infused 'knowledge' of the Org that once the threshold is passed there is no turning back may also play a role in awakend Claymores giving up the struggle for their humanity and giving into the awakening process completely.

This makes me think if the mental switch to a Yoma-mindet that is turned on once a Claymore awakend is the final stage of awakening and is essential to unleash all their powers. However there are incidents when the memories of their past lifes have helped them refrain from utilising their power to the max, Hilda and again Jean come to mind.

And Luciela's AO form was really nice.I enjoyed her short panel time thoroughly.

[irvinethearcher]

They may not know about Rosemary's fight, but if Rosemary is not so strong as most people like to think and as I believe she isn't, then there isn't much relevance.
We need to know Rosemary's stats, just looking at Extra Scene 4 and comparing her to other strong AB or even Priscilla, she seems weak.

I will go as far to guess about her possible stats as an AB:

Rosemary: 77th generation No. 2 (Eliminated)

Yoki: SSS (she was number #1 after all, and yoki is one of the most important criteria)
Agility: S or S+ (huge and strangely built body, it definitely doesn't strike you as the fastest of things)
Strength: SS or SSS (that's fine I guess, we haven't seen something really impressive coming from her, and just judging from her body and size this evaluation seems perfectly fine I think, with SSS at best)
Hardness: S or S+ (fragile and thin arms with places possibly being harder around her body, like Duff's skin)
Intelligence: S or SS (Not exceptionaly cunning or intelligent, actually her jealous seems to blind completely her senses)

Very plausible I think.
A Claymore with Teresa's caliber could really deal with something like this, aside from strength and yoki it is your typical average AB.

For the ones that think Rosemary is abyssal class, check here (don't need to read the full post, only the arguments directed to the first quote).
Yeah, Rosemary deserves to be pwned, both by Teresa and by me.



I know the arguments why rosemarie is not AO and i think it is safe to assume that rosemarie is with a great probablitie not AO because she was Nr. 1 after the luciella/raffaella accident. But there is no proof that she wasn't AO but i didn't want
to be nit-picking.
IMO our knowledge so far indicates, that
a) Rosemarie was stronger than rigardo but weaker than easley
b) A claymore, even with the stats of theresa according to the databook, shouldn't be able to deal with an awakened rosemarie as easy as theresa did. It is not only my opinion it is also the opinion of the org. In the databook the org believed theresas explaination.

But you are right, we need rosemarys awakened stats, but the org didn't know that she ever awakened - oh no, this discussion will never end

[BaalChaamon]

I know the arguments why rosemarie is not AO and i think it is safe to assume that rosemarie is with a great probablitie not AO because she was Nr. 1 after the luciella/raffaella accident. But there is no proof that she wasn't AO but i didn't want
to be nit-picking.
IMO our knowledge so far indicates, that
a) Rosemarie was stronger than rigardo but weaker than easley
b) A claymore, even with the stats of theresa according to the databook, shouldn't be able to deal with an awakened rosemarie as easy as theresa did. It is not only my opinion it is also the opinion of the org. In the databook the org believed theresas explaination.

But you are right, we need rosemarys awakened stats, but the org didn't know that she ever awakened - oh no, this discussion will never end

Yes ,the Luciela incident was devastating for the Org. but it doesnt completely negate the chance that there were still high level Claymores around, in their respective areas or still in training.I see it this way, the ones that perished during that time could also have been the weaker ones or a random selection of promising and less promising candidates. This does not relegate Rosemary automatically as a weak #1 simply because the Org is short on claymorepower. During the Northern Campaign the Org selected the Claymores that were to be sacrificed so they could calculate or make an estimate of how to compensate for the losses whereas Luciela's awakening could have killed trainees and Claymore indiscriminately.It is very likely that the death toll was mostly made up of trainees anyway as Claymores are predominantly found in their designated areas. And do not forget Claymores dont just rise in ranks because of dead peers, they can improve as well as there is a some degree of volatility and meritocracy in the ranking system.
I want stats on AlienQueen Rosemary!

[khryoleoz]

I'll admit that I have an interest in Rosemary being as strong as she can be. Because the stronger she is, the better Teresa looks. I also liked her AB form. It was quite freaky, in an interesting way. Very Alien-like.

[irvinethearcher]

And the stronger theresa is the stronger clare probably could become :D


So this does not relegate Rosemary automatically as a weak #1 simply because the Org is short on claymorepower.


agreed:)

[Voracious Reader]

I don't really follow the Luciella crisis argument anyway. We don't even know whether there were 5 or 50 or 100 years in between, and the argument only works if Teresa is in the first post-Luciella generation. And if Rosemary wasn't No 1 material they wouldn't have made such a big deal of her having been one. Also it's a fact that the Organization thought it could spare Raphaela after the Luciella incident, but not after losing No 1-5, so the shortage of high level warriors can't have been all that bad even right after the crisis. (and if you want to argue that the large number of people who would recognize Raphaela made the difference that implies that there has been a long time between the two events)

[irvinethearcher]

I don't really follow the Luciella crisis argument anyway. We don't even know whether there were 5 or 50 or 100 years in between, and the argument only works if Teresa is in the first post-Luciella generation. And if Rosemary wasn't No 1 material they wouldn't have made such a big deal of her having been one. Also it's a fact that the Organization thought it could spare Raphaela after the Luciella incident, but not after losing No 1-5, so the shortage of high level warriors can't have been all that bad even right after the crisis. (and if you want to argue that the large number of people who would recognize Raphaela made the difference that implies that there has been a long time between the two events)

Fate_archer convinced me on this, too.
Reread chapter 64 carefully.

1.Luciella awakening
2.Raphaella meeting the young theresa in the woods.
3.Rubel finding rafaella alone in a cave and saying that the organisation is short on manpower at the moment

1. - 3. proves that raphaella met theresa a few years after the luciella - desaster.
That implies that the strength of rosemarie is probably lower than the strength of an normal number one. But i think she is stronger than rigardo.

[Voracious Reader]

1. - 3. proves that raphaella met theresa a few years after the luciella - desaster.
How so? Raphaela doesn't age so how would you know how much time passed between pages 13 and 14?
The only possible argument I can see is that not enough time has passed for all traces of her youki to disappear completely, but that could just as well mean that Teresa can detect youki that is supposed to be undetectable like Galatea can (which would make Priscilla even more exceptional), or that Raphaela used her youki more recently. After all she is walking through a town despite instructions to avoid attention so something special might have happened.

[Anima]

The assumption that Rosemary wasn't #1 material is still only based on guesses and speculations. We've seen Rubel asking Rafaela to act dead after being stripped from her number and then we see her in some town overhearing about the Zema twin. How long time has passed between Rubel conversation and the overhearing about the Zema twin project isn't known and I think it's safe to assume that the Org wouldn't worry about creating a new weapon which could end up with very dangerous results before building their claymore power first.

Then we see trainee Teresa and I don't see how Teresa's appearance would ever give any indication of Rosemary being in the same class as Teresa. Maybe she was strong enough and survived Luciella crisis, who knows? When we saw Rubel asking Rafaela to rejoin the org, it was after Teresa's death and we don't know how long Teresa lived as a Claymore nor we know when she killed Rosemary. My point is, there are so many question marks around Rosemary it's hardly easy to say she was abyssal or not.

[chibamonster]

I agree it is really difficult to tell how much time has passed for the events in claymore. For instance, how old is Isley? No idea :D Probably pretty old is my only guess.

As for the time since Luciella's awakening we have no indication as to how long Raphaela was out wandering the world. Before Raphaela came back they had enough time to get Teresa and Priscilla as well as start the growth of the twins. The twins seemed to have taken a very long time to perfect. They took the entire career of Teresa as a warrior added to Clare's story up until Pieta. The problem is we don't know how long a warriors career usually is. So it is relative to claymore time, whatever that is.

As I think about it a time line wouldn't really make a huge difference for the claymores themselves because from a human point of view they are basically immortal. For instance, Elaine had her entire career from becoming a warrior until her own execution before Clare even got to Rabona. How long had she been a Claymore?

As for Rosemary's strength compared to other number ones there is no telling. Being an awakened being for longer doesn't seem to have much advantage as seen in the battle between Isley and Luciella which was still very close despite generations of claymores separating their birth as hybrids. The organization doesn't seem to have issues creating new claymores either. It's not like there is a shortage of traumatized orphan girls in the claymore universe. There is a definite difference in power between claymores but as of yet we don't know why (I have ideas but they are just ideas).

We do know awakened Rosemary was weaker than Teresa but not weaker than the organization thought Teresa was. The chapter seemed to be there to show that Teresa was keeping a secret. I think the most important point to gauge rosemary's strength is Teresa explaining that if Rosemary HAD awakened there is no way even she could defeat her. To me that means the organization sees Rosemary as weaker than Teresa in claymore form but if she awakened would require an entire team to defeat or even worse; she'd be a 4th Abyssal. It was a convincing enough argument as the MiB dropped the subject right there despite Teresa's torn cape screaming that she had been in a major confrontation. He couldn't think that Teresa had been hurt actually challenged by a bunch of youma but the idea of her defeating Rosemary was so ridiculous that he let it lie. Teresa recognized Rosemary as a former number one and never talked her power down. She just knew that she was stronger.

If Rosemary had awakened then Teresa would be even stronger than the Organization thought she was, by a lot. The organization had already given Teresa their highest rank. Rosemary knew she was stronger than anyone else in the organization and was frustrated that Teresa took her spot. She still thought she could win until Teresa revealed just a percentage of her youki. There is nothing in the extra chapter that indicates Rosemary was weak. If anything Teresa's conversation with her handler revealed that she was incredibly strong. The extra chapter was an exclamation point to Irene saying, "Have I underestimated Teresa again?" Even if we found out Rosemary would have been a weaker abyssal it wasn't like Teresa was pushing herself to defeat her. Teresa sneezes awesome.

[BaalChaamon]

It the most plausible explanation and what I have been thinking as well. Which brings me back to my point in regards to a Claymore's willingness to awaken. Rosemary had just recently awakened and that simply because of her desire for vengance and hatred that she harboured for Teresa, making her an incredible powerful foe who was able to injure Teresa. Even though the extend of the injury was only surfacial it is a feat that she shares only with Priscilla.

Knowing that the awakening process leads the Claymore to completely unleash her potential with a varied outcome based on individual merits and strengths , e.g. #6 Hilda's massive Yoki of SSS+ compared to #4 Ophelia's SS, Duff's SSS+ for strength etc., are we safe to assume that a strong inclination towards awakening such as Rosemary had may have enabled her to to utilise her newly developed skills more quickly than someone like Jean, who was fighting for her humanity till the very end even when all seemed to have disappeared but for her slowly succumbing mind.

Of course we have to consider that being a #1 Rosemary has show merits that are on a different scale compared to the achievements and the growth that Jean has displayed, nevertheless I am curious if Jean's struggle for humanity has prevented her from potentially being able to use her AB qualities to the extend that someone who wanted to awaken such as Rosemary was able to.

As I said before, having been indoctrinated from an early age that there is no turning back once the 80% mark is crossed may play a role in the completion of the awakening and result in the birth of a fully fletched awakened one, with the memories of a human+claymore but a Yoma state of mind.

This leads me to the question if there is a qualitative difference in Awakened ones who, even after a fair amount of struggle to retain their humanity, gave into the awakening and ones that wanted to awaken on purpose and spurred the process with their willpower?Of course there would be the added bonus of potentially more yoma-ness a.k.a hunger to the latter group:p

[Valduran]

I think there is something to what you are saying. After all, it was Riful who noticed Clare was more powerful when she willingly surpassed her limits.

@Chiba: You stole the words right from my mouth. If Rosemary was not really #1 material then it's doubtful Orsay would have accepted Teresa's story so easily. After all, even if they had underestimated Teresa, the Org still probably knew she was capable of taking out an awakened single digit all on her own.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's probably safe to say it has been more than a few years since the Luciela incident. The fact that Rosemary had not been demoted farther than #2 even after they had had time to replenish their ranks points to the fact that she was not weaker than normal. It's not very solid, but it's just one more factor in favor of Rosemary's relative strength.

[FateAnomaly]

Teresa is not suppose to fight with Rosemary. Rosemary gave Teresa her black card which is a invitation to kill her. Unless the org knows what Rosemary intended then they have no reason to suspect otherwise.

Anyway, i don't think the org will give a single digit to any claymore who don't qualify to be one. They will probably leave it empty until someone qualify for it.
After all, they don't update their numbers often. It is not as if they absolutely need to have 1 number for 1 region.

[Valduran]

The MiB aren't fools. I don't think there is any chance at all Orsay believed Teresa's story about running into Yoma on the way back. I'm sure he had all kinds of suspicions, but probably the most logical answer in his mind was that Rosemary went berserk and attacked, but was killed before awakening.

[khryoleoz]

Nobody's saying they're fools, as they are not. The truth is Teresa took care of the "clean up". Having no evidence, the most they can do is speculate. And where would they begin to suspect that Teresa is hiding from them her true strength?

[Valduran]

I was responding the FateAnomoly's post above me where he said "Teresa is not suppose to fight with Rosemary. Rosemary gave Teresa her black card which is a invitation to kill her. Unless the org knows what Rosemary intended then they have no reason to suspect otherwise."

Just saying I'm of the opinion that Orsay really suspected Teresa had ended up fighting Rosemary(because there is no way any amount of normal Yoma would be able to even scratch a single thread of her clothing, and he knew it) but had no choice but to believe her when she said Rosemary had not awakened.

[FateAnomaly]

Like you said, MiBs are not fools. If it comes to a fight, why would Rosemary fight as a claymore when she is close to awakening? Its either a no fight or awakened fight.

Anyway, they probably have someone to observe them. The statement is probably to test Teresa honesty.

[khryoleoz]

Okay, then they know she lies, making her reassurance to Clare also a deceit. Still, where would they begin to deduce about what and why? They may not be fools but they need not necessarily be sufficiently informed either.

[Taylor_Maclaurin]

Maybe Teresa told Orsay such a lie to bellitle herself in their eyes. She knew from the fact they sent her to fight former number 1 that they value her a bit too much. By telling such stupid excuse she wanted to confuse her handler. It was a smoke-screen to make him think too much. If I were Orsay I would think that Teresa had problems with Rosemary who wasn't willing to surrender (thus Teresa isn't so powerful after all or they underestimated Rosemary). From my point of view though plain clothing isn't as resistant as human body (not to mention Claymore body) and indestructible uniform has only Superman.

[chibamonster]

Hmm. Maybe the most important question in the first extra chapter, "Why did Teresa lie?"

She never lied anywhere else that we know of. She was extremely blunt and even tactless in most cases, but she never lied nor even tried to comfort people with anything but the truth. Even after she had a good cry with Clare she left her in the mountain town because, as she had said all along, life with a claymore was no life at all. She didn't make excuses to her handler when she escaped her execution, she told Priscilla why she wasn't going to kill her, and she certainly didn't beat around the bush when she was telling Rosemary why she was number 1 even when she knew it would make her angry. If anything Teresa constantly saying exactly what was on her mind might have been the reason her Handler wasn't surprised that she defected.

So what would have happened if Teresa had said, "Oh yeah, Rosemary awakened before she sent her black card. She wanted to challenge my position as number 1. I killed her. The body is cut up into mammoth steaks just up that hill." The evidence was still there. I can't imagine Teresa digging a hole big enough to hide Rosemary's enormous dead awakened body. Nor can I see her going to the trouble of disposing of it mostly because she would have been covered with blood had she attempted it. I imagine some little boy with a basket of food walking to grandmas house and passing Rosemary's hacked body and then having nightmares for the rest of his life.

It was a simple enough answer and would have been very like Teresa to just blurt out what had happened. Why didn't Teresa do it? Why did she go to all the trouble of explaining something else? She uses the fact that Rosemary was once a number 1 coupled with the fact that Teresa herself was still alive meant Rosemary couldn't have awakened. It's not like the organization could have killed Teresa if they found out. They tried that later by sending in their top guns and it resulted in the worst catastrophe that we know of. Had Teresa been determined to kill them (as opposed to being softened by Clare) none of them would have stood a chance. So what was Teresa's reason?

The organization may have loved her for revealing it. Taking out Rosemary at low youki might mean that Teresa with a team of claymores could take out the Abyssals one at a time. They could even have pulled Raphaela back into service (she was itching to get Luciella), not to mention they had Priscilla in the oven. The organization had been working on achieving a warrior powerful enough to rival the abyssals for some time. They lost Luciella with horrible results and risked it again with Alicia but never knew what they had with Teresa because she kept it a secret. Why did she do that?

It couldn't be because Teresa was afraid of any opponent in the claymore world. She laughed in Rosemary's face and wasn't even touched by the combined powers of the organization's 2-5. Her youki reading would have been a huge advantage in fighting any awakened being.

HEAVY SPECULATION: Well, from here on I don't have much evidence (none), but this is what I think happened :p. Teresa told Priscilla that a rookie like her didn't know her limits because warriors learn them through combat and experience. To me this means Teresa knew her limits. Yet even knowing how powerful she was she continued to hone her fighting skills. She had the ability to read youki but she still worked on other bits of combat (I think) as seen from her fight with Priscilla. She didn't need that ability. Teresa could have released her youki a little bit more and overpowered anyone. By a lot. But instead she used skills that kept her youki output minimal hiding her true power from everyone.

The conclusion I have come to (feel free to disagree, this is only an idea) is that Teresa was afraid of her own power for some reason. Teresa didn't need to be good at youki sensing to be best because she was stronger than everyone else. She didn't need youki-blind sword fighting skills because she was more powerful than everyone else. But she did use those skills and she lied about her real power. Is it possible she developed her youki sensing to keep her own youki at bay? It's a stretch, but it would explain why she was so good at it. It would also explain her uncertainty about fighting Priscilla in the future as well as her reason to deceive the organization about Rosemary.

Teresa felt that she was a monster and accepted it. She did not expect to be treated like a human. She didn't want to be part of human society and would intentionally terrify the towns she was hired to protect as if for entertainment or at least to get them to pay. She didn't want friends as she constantly pushed people away from her saying with her words and actions, "Don't you know I'm a monster?" Teresa was lonely and full of pain but she didn't realize it until Clare made her care. She didn't value her body as seen with the bandits. I think she wanted to help others and had good motivations for what she did but it doesn't seem she had any desire to help herself. She knew the organizations system was messed up but didn't have any intention to leave.

I think that Teresa's secret was something much darker than what we saw with Priscilla. I don't think Teresa partially awakened but with how much youki she had even a little hit would go a long way. Teresa knew what awaited if she lost control and she might have recognized in herself that she would even enjoy awakening. That may have scared her more than anything. Her recognizing a monster within her would explain her distance from society and other claymores, her attitude of constantly terrifying people, and would also explain why she kept it all secret. But, it's just an idea. I just like to think Teresa had a true monster inside of her and she had to consider containing it one of her highest priorities.

[Voracious Reader]

It always seemed obvious that she lied so that a former comrade would be remembered as having died honorably.

[Anima]

I don't think Teresa was afraid of her powers, she just never had the need to use them. She used them (from what we have seen so far) only to the point where it suffices and that was 10% in two incidents and it was way overwhelming to the opponent which makes me laugh at Clare when she used 50% yoma to beat a regular yoma (Raki's brother). :heh:

I do agree that she must have known her limits because of what she said to Priscilla which even made think that Teresa might have half-awakened but then when I saw how positive about "there is no way to return back once you go beyond 80%" when she told Priscilla so makes me think she didn't half awaken after all. I am really eager to know the incident where Teresa discovered her limit.

It always seemed obvious that she lied so that a former comrade would be remembered as having died honorably.
That's a very good point! I like it. It further deepen my respect for my beloved Teresa. :3

[irvinethearcher]

How so? Raphaela doesn't age so how would you know how much time passed between pages 13 and 14?
The only possible argument I can see is that not enough time has passed for all traces of her youki to disappear completely, but that could just as well mean that Teresa can detect youki that is supposed to be undetectable like Galatea can (which would make Priscilla even more exceptional), or that Raphaela used her youki more recently. After all she is walking through a town despite instructions to avoid attention so something special might have happened.

You have to read it carefully Fate_archer posted a link in which he gave a detailed explaination.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=56339&page=35#post1306935

But i will trie it again more detailed myself too:
In a chronological order:
1.Luciella awakening
2.Raphaella meeting the young theresa in the woods. Rafaella had only one eye, it happened also AFTER the disaster.
3.Rubel finding rafaella alone in a cave and saying that the organisation is short on manpower at the moment. Because the the org is short on manpower, the meeting in the cave have to be only a few years after the desaster and after the meeting of rafaella and young theresa in the woods otherwise the org would had her old strength back. But this wasn't the case.

1. - 3. proves that raphaella met theresa a few years after the luciella - desaster.
That implies that the strength of rosemarie is probably lower than the strength of an normal number one. But i think she is stronger than rigardo.

quod erat demonstrandum

But it is only with a certain probability that rosemarie was not nr.1 material, we don't know 4 sure

It always seemed obvious that she lied so that a former comrade would be remembered as having died honorably.

Good point, perhaps this was her motivation for lieing but i think she was afraid of her own power and she thought, that if she was afraid of her own power how afraid would be the org if they know about it.

[Voracious Reader]

3.Rubel finding rafaella alone in a cave and saying that the organisation is short on manpower at the moment. Because they just lost #1 - 5. And they don't lack manpower in general but only powerful warriors.
No connection to Luciella at all.

[khryoleoz]

It's not clear that Rubel said that in the context of the immediate state of the org in the Luciela aftermath, because it's not clear how much time had actually passed in between 1, 2, and 3. We don't even know how much time passed between when Raphaela was first banished into exile and the scene when she wandered through a town and heard of the twins.

The likely meaning behind Rubel's statement is that they're low on the man power that only someone like her at her level can fill, with them having just lost 1-5. This lends some support to the idea that the org doesn't just promote the next lower rank in line to a higher rank just because they've lost someone from that rank. And instead, she gets demoted to rank 5 when reactivated! Rather than reactivating a banished former number 2, why not just fill the numbers with the active 6 through 10 by bumping them up? So while there is some basis, there's not enough evidence to readily presume Rosemarie was promoted under those circumstances.

[irvinethearcher]

Because they just lost #1 - 5. And they don't lack manpower in general but only powerful warriors.
No connection to Luciella at all.

Okay, i read the chapter 64 carefully. I thought the "lack of manpower" was about the luciella disaster but i was wrong, it was about the death of theresa. between 2 and 3 could be for example 200 years or more, you are right.
Sorry...

But this means that rosemarie was probably AO - class and theresa was the strongest claymore ever by far stronger than alicia and beth.

[khryoleoz]

It always seemed obvious that she lied so that a former comrade would be remembered as having died honorably.
That was part of the lie. Chibamonster is poking at her motivations, why she thought she had to lie. What did it matter to her whether Rosemary received honor? They weren't friends. And to be concerned about another's reputation enough to lie doesn't seem to be in her character. So her motivations for keeping the truth about the incident from her handler "lie" elsewhere.

[Voracious Reader]

That was part of the lie. Chibamonster is poking at her motivations, why she thought she had to lie. What did it matter to her whether Rosemary received honor? They weren't friends. And to be concerned about another's reputation enough to lie doesn't seem to be in her character.
Funny, to me a white lie for someone else's benefit seems to be the only kind of lie that would be in-character for her. For instance I could easily see her lie to about the direction an fugitive took to his pursuers. But a selfish lie? Hardly. Even if she had a good motivation, which frankly I don't see. It seems unlikely that she would be afraid of anything at all, seeing that she never encountered anything that was a thread to her and she didn't care all that much about surviving before meeting Clare. I doubt she even knew about the AOs and if she did I don't think she would have put that much effort into avoiding to fight them.
Afraid of her own power? Why would she release it without real need against Rosemary then? The two times she used it she seemed extremely confident and not worried at all, and she did look rather worried in the first fight against Priscilla so it's not like she wouldn't show it.
Teresa didn't seem to care what others think about her at all, and the fact that her true strength was unknown can be adequately explained by a lack of real challenges and her apparent dislike for boasting. She never tells anyone that she is #1 or even an above average warrior either, and there is certainly no special need o hide that. Evidently she knew they were underestimating her, but why would she bother to rectify that? "By the way, I know you already think I'm the strongest warrior in history, but even so I'm much stronger than you know." Does that seem like something Teresa would say? I think not. Neither does "Why don't you send me to fight the Abyssal Ones? I could beat them." for reasons including that she never concerned her with the question what mission she was going to be assigned to next, only fulfilling the current one.
Also dying honorably is not a trivial matter at all, one of the issues almost all Claymores care about most is dying while still human. And the fact that Teresa empathizes with that is by no means just speculation: Consider how relieved she is that Rosemary's awakening is not her fault, and how she describes her final moments as truly worthy of a number 1.

[irvinethearcher]

@voracious_reader
Theresa said:
"Her last moments were fittingly splendid for a former number one".

English is not my native language but this sounds a bit ironic to me. How is your japanese to english translation of that?

[Voracious Reader]

@voracious_reader
Theresa said:
"Her last moments were fittingly splendid for a former number one".

English is not my native language but this sounds a bit ironic to me. How is your japanese to english translation of that?That's almost exactly the raw translation I also came up with, but obviously splendid is unfitting for describing someones death in English and so I struggled to come up with something that works better for a few minutes. I'm not really happy with my version either. The problem is that there is no real equivalent for rippa in English. Splendid is often the best translation, but not the same idea at all. Sometimes excellent works. The best description for the concept of rippa I can come up with is being close to the ideal case of something and fulfilling all (positive) expectations in a good way, but that's not quite right either.
In any case I don't read the Japanese sentence as ironic at all.

[chibamonster]

I do agree that she must have known her limits because of what she said to Priscilla which even made think that Teresa might have half-awakened but then when I saw how positive about "there is no way to return back once you go beyond 80%" when she told Priscilla so makes me think she didn't half awaken after all. I am really eager to know the incident where Teresa discovered her limit.

I also want to see what happened when Teresa was testing her limits. I imagine it would have been simmilar to Deneve's testing by herself to see where they were as Teresa would never be pushed to her limits in actual combat.

Even though I don't think Teresa half awakened, I can't put it out of my mind completely despite what she said in her lecture. For Priscilla, who had never used her youki, half awakening would have been impossible because she didn't know where her limit was. It's not like she was listening anyway. Just an idea. I like to think that there was something vastly different about Teresa and Priscilla than other claymores that hasn't been revealed yet. But half awakening would be cool too. My favorite idea to play with is that Teresa couldn't find her limit, but that is only a personal preference :p.

It always seemed obvious that she lied so that a former comrade would be remembered as having died honorably.

I had to think about this for a while. It had never crossed my mind that Teresa was doing it to defend Rosemary's honor. It is definitely possible, at least as possible as what I posted. If it was her motivation though the way she lied about it still agitates me a bit and makes me think she had another reason. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

Passing ones limits over time is not dishonorable by itself. It will eventually happen to every claymore (unless they half awaken which is supposed to be impossible). That is why the black card system is in place; to give struggling claymores a chance to die as a human at the hands of someone they choose. Getting there late probably isn't uncommon especially if the card doesn't make it to the end receiver fast enough as happened with Hilda thanks to Ophelia.

To save Rosemary's memory Teresa only needed to hide the reason that she got the black card, not Rosemary's awakening itself as Rosemary being close to her limits was the reason she was supposed to be at Godaru hill in the first place. The immediate question the MiB had after commenting on Teresa's appearance was asking if Teresa had let Rosemary awaken. He knew it was a possibility and it could have been their fault for not getting there fast enough. He dropped the matter after Teresa lied and said she couldn't have beaten an awakened number 1. I am going off his response. I don't know anything about the MiB's abilities so I just have to assume that they can't read youki like Rubel explained to Raphaela.

Teresa was actually glad Rosemary had awakened because it made her more at ease with the combat. She would rather kill an awakened than a comrade, even a comrade that hated her. Teresa knew Rosemary was an AB before the conflict even started (or at least early on) but she wanted to check to see if it was because she had been late or not. When she found out it wasn't her fault she felt much better.

Teresa also found out something else very important; Rosemary's intention was to kill her. Teresa would be her first victim and the validation Rosemary had been craving to prove her own power. Despite having never met Teresa, Rosemary hated her for taking her position in the organization. Her grudge was strong enough that it still dominated her thoughts after her awakening. Rosemary could have gone on to be another super powerful Awakened being terrorizing the world but she hated Teresa so much that she sent her black card to get Teresa alone and kill her. The entire plan was devised to murder Teresa. It was supposed to be a trap.

Rosemary had wanted to kill Teresa even when she was still a claymore. It wasn't her awakening that brought that about. It wouldn't have been that Teresa was giving a former comrade a respectful and honorable memory but that she was creating an entirely new character that never existed. Teresa's handler even mentioned that Rosemary had been the former number one when he gave her the assignment. Maybe Teresa had an interest in protecting the image of fallen Claymores no matter how bad they were. Maybe some religious beliefs carried over from her childhood? In any case if she had those feelings they didn't carry over to living claymores, herself, the organization or to humans.

Teresa had no interest in protecting the organizations image. Terrifying people to get them to pay seemed her common practice. She even mentioned, much to her handlers chagrin, that towns that don't pay or even ones that pay the wrong person (by chance) are annihilated.

Teresa had no interest soft coating her own image. She didn't bother explaining what she had done to Priscilla. She didn't try to coax Priscilla out of her dogmatic beliefs in the organization. She slammed her opinion about justice in the face and then beat her down. Teresa never watered things down to make them easier on others. She was almost the polar opposite and didn't seem to discriminate between humans and claymores in being painfully blunt.

This is just me, but it seems out of character for Teresa to suddenly defend someone's memory who she didn't know, who hated her, and tried with all their might to kill her. Especially sicne this was pre-Clare Teresa who was still fit for battle. This was the old Teresa that Irene knew who wouldn't have hesitated a moment to kill Priscilla. This was the Teresa who did not show mercy. It seems to me that she must have had another reason to lie about Rosemary than creating a good atmosphere. I can relate to keeping a good image of someone who is gone even if they were unpleasant. If Teresa did protect rosemary she must have some hardcore almost religious beliefs about death that haven't surfaced anywhere else in the story yet.

[irvinethearcher]

In any case I don't read the Japanese sentence as ironic at all.


I think that's the best hint we have on this. thx

[Newhope]

[QUOTE][The MiB aren't fools. I don't think there is any chance at all Orsay believed Teresa's story about running into Yoma on the way back. I'm sure he had all kinds of suspicions, but probably the most logical answer in his mind was that Rosemary went berserk and attacked, but was killed before awakening./QUOTE]

We're also forgeting the slasher's are where the fab 4 where been watched by Galatia and Ermita, Also the time when Teresa killed the bandits Orsay was there watching.It seems to me the mib watch the claymores closer than most of them know, I wouldn't be surprised if they watched the single digits like hawks seen as they are the orgs main weapon.

[khryoleoz]

Okay. Then let's not also forget that during the fab 4's AB hunt and Teresa killing the bandits, it was specifically shown that they were being watched. I know that the idea is arguing for a pattern of behavior or using the same methods on the part of the org. But wouldn't you think that Yagi would have shown that someone was watching Teresa deal with Rosemary if he intended for us to believe that?

Chibamonster addressed all the points that I was going to and more, which relieves me of a tedious writing task.

[Anima]

We're also forgeting the slasher's are where the fab 4 where been watched by Galatia and Ermita, Also the time when Teresa killed the bandits Orsay was there watching.It seems to me the mib watch the claymores closer than most of them know, I wouldn't be surprised if they watched the single digits like hawks seen as they are the orgs main weapon.
Yes, yes.. This has bothered me but the Slasher arc is different IMO given that they were watching the execution of a group of claymores they thought to be troublesome.

Teresa's incident is different tho and it did had me thinking and I still can't figure why they had been watching her. But then what Teresa's handler said about anticipating such acting from Teresa makes me think that they just wanted to know when this powerful child will start to get naughty and it kinda made sense.

I also thought that sending Clare with Ophelia in an AB hunt was not by coincidence but rather because they DID know that Ophelia is a blood thirsty claymore who would kill Clare for fun. The Org might have known about Ophelia killing comrades and humans yet they chose to spare her because she did her clean up and no one can accuse the Org for producing those monsters (claymores).

Still as khryoleoz wrote, I think a pattern can't be concluded from those incidents.

[Sassarai]

What bothered me was the MIB being on top of the chimmney when he spotted Teresa in the burning village o_O. How is he going to get down? How did he get up? Was it like that in the manga?
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5323/95066045sl5.jpg

[Anima]

Haha.. No, the manga had him standing on what appears to be a cliff.

[Tempest35]

MIB l00t skill: Roof Hopping! ver. 0.5

[FateAnomaly]

I think the Teresa situation is a setup, they wanted to get rid of Teresa cos she is too independent, uncontrollable and powerful. (Probably kill her before she awaken) Afterall, they have a obedient Priscilla.
They could have overlook the killing of the humans since there were no witness. (An no one actually knows they executed their people for killing humans since it is not a public execution or anything) They needed an excuse to kill Teresa in order to answer to the other claymore. They are aware of the situation but they didn't try to stop her.

[khryoleoz]

I was re-reading vol 4 chapter 21. Here we have Teresa and Priscilla fighting and this was when Priscilla was still suppressing her yoki. Teresa makes an interesting comment about Priscilla. "Deep inside, she harbors a monster. In time, she will become incredibly strong." I'll stop there because I really don't like what she says after that. :p

My question is, if Priscilla during this time had been fully suppressing her yoki, how then was Teresa determining that Priscilla was harboring a monster? She couldn't have been referring to Priscilla's fighting ability which had been no match for Teresa's all along. What if like how Galatea is now, she can read the yoki content of even warriors who are suppressing their yoki? Teresa's encounter with Raphaela seems to be a precedent that supports the idea.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I was re-reading vol 4 chapter 21. Here we have Teresa and Priscilla fighting and this was when Priscilla was still suppressing her yoki. Teresa makes an interesting comment about Priscilla. "Deep inside, she harbors a monster. In time, she will become incredibly strong." I'll stop there because I really don't like what she says after that. :p

My question is, if Priscilla during this time had been fully suppressing her yoki, how then was Teresa determining that Priscilla was harboring a monster? She couldn't have been referring to Priscilla's fighting ability which had been no match for Teresa's all along. What if like how Galatea is now, she can read the yoki content of even warriors who are suppressing their yoki? Teresa's encounter with Raphaela seems to be a precedent that supports the idea.

First of all, LOL at your last sentance. :D

Now moving on to your topic.

The problem with that train of thought is that Teresa still could not read Priscilla's yoki with her own skill. Teresa's encounter from Raphaela is alot harder to determine because Raphaela had recently left the Org and was still in the process of Yoki-starving herself. Rubel noted that it was not accurate to say Raphaela was the best at supressing her Yoki, just that she had not used it for YEARS.

It is possible however that if Teresa can see and focus on a supressed individual then she can gauge their Yoki enough to measure their strength, but not by enough to read it for her technique.

It is more likely that Teresa realized Priscilla's potential just by analyzing her ability, even though she was an amatuer she was already stronger then Irene, and obviously had a large amount of room to improve, Teresa might have even used herself as a measuring stick, comparing Priscilla to herself when she was a newly assigned warrior as well.

[Mord]

The problem with that train of thought is that Teresa still could not read Priscilla's yoki with her own skill. Teresa's encounter from Raphaela is alot harder to determine because Raphaela had recently left the Org and was still in the process of Yoki-starving herself. Rubel noted that it was not accurate to say Raphaela was the best at supressing her Yoki, just that she had not used it for YEARS.


Rafaela would have been suppressing her youki long before she left the organization seeing as it would have been part of her duties within the soul link experiment. Volume 12 chapter 64 supports this as Rubel mentions that she is still faithfully suppressing her youki even though it is futile at that point.

Also there is no way to tell how much time has passed between Rafaela leaving the organization and her meeting with Teresa seeing as she had already stopped aging at that point.

[BaalChaamon]

It appears that Raphaela's Yoki suppression was an acquired skill that she had to develop to soul-link (something that she apparently hadn't done from the beginning of her Claymore career unlike Beth and consequently and obviously has failed to perfect) and has built on it passively by simply not using her Yoki for a prolonged period of time.

Priscilla's Yoki suppression on the other hand is an innate ability.

Now the question arises where the qualitative difference is between the two. I can see Beth's Yoki supression to be on par with Priscilla's natural ability simply due the nature of her training, the same cannot be said about Raphaela though. Irene knew that she was coming after she had seen Clare off prior to the Northern Campaign arc.

[Voracious Reader]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that either of them extensively trained suppression for the soul-linking. As far as I am aware of nothing implies that skill at suppression beyond what a normal Claymore is capable of is required, and the only special training mentioned is youki alignment.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that either of them extensively trained suppression for the soul-linking. As far as I am aware of nothing implies that skill at suppression beyond what a normal Claymore is capable of is required, and the only special training mentioned is youki alignment.

It is implied by Rubel that Yoki supression is required, but not really confirmed.

My point about Raphaela is that any Claymore can "Supress" their Yoki, but few reach the level Raphaela did due to her training AND years of seclusion, Rubel also makes a comment over it when making his proposal of rejoining the Org to her.

So Raphaela's supression when Teresa detected her and Raphaela's supression after years of not using Yoki would be different beasts all together.

Priscilla's supression is also a different matter entirely.

Priscilla's actual talent was Yoki supression (as opposed to Teresa/Clare's Pre-emptive Yoki-sensing), and the Organization made special note of it, on it being Priscilla's instinctual response to hold back her massive amount of Yoki before she was ready for it.


Also Irene did not sense Raphaela until she made the boot-click sound (I believe they have a panal with Raphaela's boot before she makes her apperance.) Irene also was suprised initially (but true to form, she kept her composure.)

[Voracious Reader]

It is implied by Rubel that Yoki supression is required, but not really confirmed.
But not special skill at it in the making it hard to detect sense.

I agree with everything else in your post, and also agreed with everything in your last post, my comment was directed at those two posts after yours.

[aurr]

I sometimes wonder, what if Clare or Galatea would meet up with Darth Maul, who would win?

[chibamonster]

I sometimes wonder, what if Clare or Galatea would meet up with Darth Maul, who would win?

Do medichlorians emit youki? Do Clare or Galatea have to fight with Claymores or do they get light sabers? Both would make a huge difference in the battle.

[Newhope]

I sometimes wonder, what if Clare or Galatea would meet up with Darth Maul, who would win?

Claymores are probably to strong and fast for a jedi to keep pace with for long.

[Claymore_Obsessed]

Claymores are probably to strong and fast for a jedi to keep pace with for long.

Yeah! :D
only Clarice and Raki would be in trouble... for other Claymores it's a cakewalk :heh:

[Fenrir_valindri]

It depends really, low to mid-ranking Claymores would probably be destroyed, Jedi are alot faster then people give them credit for, blocking shots from a gun and deflecting them back is an amazing feat of speed/agility/ and coordination.

Not to mention Darth Maul was also a trained Teras Kasi. (which is what made him so awesome)

The Lightsaber + Force powers would be a huge problem for any opponent they fought.

Single Digits would probably demolish most Jedi though, Single digits enter an area of power that few Jedi could reach.

[Newhope]

It depends really, low to mid-ranking Claymores would probably be destroyed, Jedi are alot faster then people give them credit for, blocking shots from a gun and deflecting them back is an amazing feat of speed/agility/ and coordination.

Not to mention Darth Maul was also a trained Teras Kasi. (which is what made him so awesome)

The Lightsaber + Force powers would be a huge problem for any opponent they fought.

Single Digits would probably demolish most Jedi though, Single digits enter an area of power that few Jedi could reach.

Jedi while powerful they are still human and have human limitations would there perception and reactions be fast enough to keep up with the claymore.

To be fast enough to fight a claymore they would have to draw on the force just to keep up with the speed which claymores have naturally, this constant use of the force would tire them out quickly.

The only way I think a jedi could beat a claymore is though mind games but that would only work against weak willed people which I don't think most claymores are seeing what they have been though and the training they have received.

[Anima]

Darth Maul, Jedi? :dots:

[Tempest35]

That depends on the types of weapons being used. With regular blades - Claymores have an advantage, but as soon as those pesky light sabers get back into the hands of the Jedi, the lightsaber pwns nearly all blade-based weapons ever known.

Of course the best one hands down is Hikari no Ken (Sword of Light - Slayers) which could probably beat out even a lightsaber. I'd like to see Irene-san use Quicksword with the Hikari no Ken...@_@

[Newhope]

Darth Maul, Jedi? :dots:

Jedi and sith are just the diffrent sides of the same coin they are not total different.

[Anima]

That's not what I meant.. What is Jedi and what is Darth Maul was what I meant but after doing some research I found it was some star war stuff which I am completely unaware of.

[Claymore_Obsessed]

That depends on the types of weapons being used. With regular blades - Claymores have an advantage, but as soon as those pesky light sabers get back into the hands of the Jedi, the lightsaber pwns nearly all blade-based weapons ever known.

Of course the best one hands down is Hikari no Ken (Sword of Light - Slayers) which could probably beat out even a lightsaber. I'd like to see Irene-san use Quicksword with the Hikari no Ken...@_@

imho the Hikari no Ken easily pwns every lightsaber of past, present and future :)

Jedi are humans, right? imho few humans can stand a fair chance against Claymores, let alone ABs...
Guts, Dio Brando and JoJo, and (if Claymores still have tsubo after the transformation) Hokuto Shinken martial artists, and few others...

[koffy]

The jedi concentrateing strong all the time, so Galatea's skill wouldnt work effectively aganist them I think. Thinking about Clare's quicksword...in this case Darth Maul falls apart more than 2 pieces...

[Fenrir_valindri]

imho the Hikari no Ken easily pwns every lightsaber of past, present and future :)

Jedi are humans, right? imho few humans can stand a fair chance against Claymores, let alone ABs...
Guts, Dio Brando and JoJo, and (if Claymores still have tsubo after the transformation) Hokuto Shinken martial artists, and few others...

To be fair, Claymores are humans too, just special, such is the case with Jedi.

And not all Jedi are human, Darth Maul definatly isn't.

Watch the Clone Wars cartoon series and you will get a better idea of Jedi using an "Anime" ruleset are capable off. Mace Windu, in one fight scene, basically destroys an entire army of super battle droids single-handedly, and he was bare-handed for part of that fight.

Also check out the trailers for that game "The Force Unleashed" to get an even better idea of what a powerful Jedi can do. (Ripping a star destroyer from the sky? Check)

[chibamonster]

Well there are some points to consider with this conflict. First off, if medichlorians don't emit youki then darth maul is invisible to youki sensing and manipulation. Even though a claymore would be faster and stronger than darth maul, sith and jedi's can see the future somewhat (hence the ability to block blasters) so speed may not make too much of a difference. Not to mention he could force choke them, force lift them, throw things at them, force push them, or possibly even lightning strike them (don't remember if darth maul had those abilities as I'm not up on my star wars universe info but other sith have the abilities for sure). Not to mention that his weapon is far more powerful and could shred any sword to pieces. If it were a footrace or a power lifting competition the claymores would destroy him. Physically I don't think darth maul would stand a chance, but it's that force bit that could really screw the battle up.

Of course, looking at the conflict like this is kind of like trying to plug a usb cable into a phone jack; the 2 fictional universes' are not really compatible. Adjustments must be made. I think Clare and Galatea would make fantastic Jedi's. Darth maul would make a great awakened being. I imagine he would be somewhat like Rigald only with even less talking.

[Newhope]

To be fair, Claymores are humans too, just special, such is the case with Jedi.

And not all Jedi are human, Darth Maul definatly isn't.

Watch the Clone Wars cartoon series and you will get a better idea of Jedi using an "Anime" ruleset are capable off. Mace Windu, in one fight scene, basically destroys an entire army of super battle droids single-handedly, and he was bare-handed for part of that fight.

Also check out the trailers for that game "The Force Unleashed" to get an even better idea of what a powerful Jedi can do. (Ripping a star destroyer from the sky? Check)

I wouldn't really take games as cannon. When you read the books jedi are rarely able to pull off feats like this and when they do they are physically and mentally pushed to breaking point,the number of jedi able to perform them are also very rare maybe only 1-2 a generation.

No darth maul was an Iridonian not human but most races senses are close to human standard.

[khryoleoz]

There's only one human who can take on Priscilla and the AOs. Right now, he's too busy facing Apostles though.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Oh, I agree Chibi, comparing the two universes is going to be difficult, they operate under completely different rule sets.

Force powers would be a huge advantage, Force Choking would be something no Claymore could even stop.

Claymores definatly have Jedi beat on a very physichal level though, they are clearly faster and stronger, but as pointed out, Jedi do have incrediably reflexes and alot of "magic" abilities that don't have a place in the Claymoreverse.

Also the 1-2 powerful Jedi a generation seems to match the Claymore standard of a Rank 1 and 2 Warrior.

------------------

Berserk, although also possesing magic, is alot closer in comparison to the "feel" of Claymore.

Although I think anything around Rigaldo's level would tear Guts apart.

---------------

Another great comparison for the Claymoreverse is "The Witcher" the similarities between the two stories are quite amusing to me, and the game was hella-fun, just finished it today. :D

[Newhope]

Oh, I agree Chibi, comparing the two universes is going to be difficult, they operate under completely different rule sets.

Force powers would be a huge advantage, Force Choking would be something no Claymore could even stop.

Claymores definatly have Jedi beat on a very physichal level though, they are clearly faster and stronger, but as pointed out, Jedi do have incrediably reflexes and alot of "magic" abilities that don't have a place in the Claymoreverse.

Also the 1-2 powerful Jedi a generation seems to match the Claymore standard of a Rank 1 and 2 Warrior.

------------------

Berserk, although also possesing magic, is alot closer in comparison to the "feel" of Claymore.

Although I think anything around Rigaldo's level would tear Guts apart.

---------------

Another great comparison for the Claymoreverse is "The Witcher" the similarities between the two stories are quite amusing to me, and the game was hella-fun, just finished it today. :D

It's not so much the battle of powers but the claymore's shier speed how do you kill something that can move faster than your brain and reaction speed can keep up with.

I know this is bad example because she's one of the most powerful claymores.When Tersea was introduced she killed the 7 yoma in the village where Clare was she moved at such speeds that the yoma couldn't even comprehend never mind react to, Clare also showed that sort of speed when saving raki in the frist chapter even when she was one of the weakist claymores.

[Fenrir_valindri]

It's not so much the battle of powers but the claymore's shier speed how do you kill something that can mover faster than your brain and reaction speed can keep up with.

I know this is bad example because she's one of the most powerful claymores.When Tersea was introduced she killed the 7 yoma in the village where Clare was she moved at such speeds that the yoma couldn't even comprehend nevermind react to, Clare also showed that sort of speed when saving raki in the frist chapter even when she was one of the weakist claymores.

Considering that Jedi are quite capable of blocking bullets, I consider them fast enough, considering normal humans can't block bullets either.

Jedi have anything but human reflexes.

[Valduran]

It's not so much the battle of powers but the claymore's shier speed how do you kill something that can mover faster than your brain and reaction speed can keep up with.

I know this is bad example because she's one of the most powerful claymores.When Tersea was introduced she killed the 7 yoma in the village where Clare was she moved at such speeds that the yoma couldn't even comprehend nevermind react to, Clare also showed that sort of speed when saving raki in the frist chapter even when she was one of the weakist claymores.

When they are 'letting the force flow through them' Jedi's reaction speeds are enhanced to insane levels because they can sense every action that has just happened, is happening, or will happen. It's all connected through the force. And even in the movies Jedi show off a few stunts that seem pretty equal to average Claymore levels of speed. For strength, the Jedi have the force...such cheats.

If they were capable of such speed constantly, then an average fully-trained Jedi Knight would propably have little trouble handling anything less than a single digit Claymore. The only way a Claymore could beat a Jedi would be to move so insanely fast that the Jedi can't react in time no matter how attuned to the force they are.

For example, a Jedi standing in range of Flora's Windcutter would probably be sliced to giblets before they knew what was happening, but if they started a long distance apart it would take something like awakened Clare to close the gap before the Jedi could push them away or hold them with the force. The reason why you don't really see stuff like that happening constantly in the Movies is because an alert Jedi can counter hostile force energy and so we just never see it take effect on screen.

Although, I may be wrong due to the fact it appears Jedi can only make use of extreme speeds in short bursts. In that case a Claymore will win hands down just due to superior endurance and toughness. Jedi tire rather quickly, and generally can't fight past the point where they take a serious flesh wound or lose a limb.

And about the lightsaber... It definately would be an unfair advantage. A Claymore would have to pretty much always strike the Jedi where they were unable to block and dodge instead of parrying if they didn't want to lose their sword.

I think though, to be fair...if Clare or Galatea fought Darth Maul, Yoki would probably have to be interconnected with The Force to level the playing field. In which cause Darth Maul would get his ass handed to him by either one since they are such great Yoki sensors. I'd bet that Darth Maul is too elite and focused to have his force attacks redirected by Galatea though.

[chibamonster]

If Clare or Galatea are going to fight Darth Maul then they get to have Mandalorian armor (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandalorian_armor) like Boba Fett to level the playing field. Then they win. What would happen in the fight would really depend on how it is set up. Is this a formal duel? Is it a surprise attack? Are they fighting in an enclosed space? Getting around the force is the hardest thing because if he catches them with any of the force abilities they are screwed (hence the mandalorian armor :D).

I'm still liking the idea of Claymores being jedi's. Sith were once jedi's so darth maul would be like an awakened being (kind of). Maybe we should just merge the two stories? And if nothing else, Galatea and Clare are Hero's while Darth Maul is a Villain so he loses eventually even if he takes out Flora, Undine...

Ooh, Galatea in Mandalorian armor...

*I wonder, what is going to happen when an administrator finds this discussion?*

[Valduran]

LoL. Good question. Erm, It's still On-Topic!! Kinda! :heh:

If the Claymore's weren't capable of already fighting a Jedi evenly then Mandalorian Armor wouldn't make much of a difference. :uhoh: But speaking of Mandalorian Armor, I just remembered how much trouble Obi-wan had with Jango Fett who was just a normal human, and I say; "HAH!!! Claymore pwn Jedi."
Would be awesome if Claymore's wore something like Mandalorian armor though. :(

But something else to consider, Force abilities seem to require targeting. So if the Claymore is moving too fast a Jedi really won't ever be able to hit them with the force.

[Fenrir_valindri]

LoL. Good question. Erm, It's still On-Topic!! Kinda! :heh:

If the Claymore's weren't capable of already fighting a Jedi evenly then Mandalorian Armor wouldn't make much of a difference. :uhoh: But speaking of Mandalorian Armor, I just remembered how much trouble Obi-wan had with Jango Fett who was just a normal human, and I say; "HAH!!! Claymore pwn Jedi."
Would be awesome if Claymore's wore something like Mandalorian armor though. :(

But something else to consider, Force abilities seem to require targeting. So if the Claymore is moving too fast a Jedi really won't ever be able to hit them with the force.

Actually Mandalorian's are not human, they would be comparable to super-humans according to their back-story, considering Jedi were the only thing that could stand up to them in the Star-wars universe.

Mandalorian armor does not protect from Jedi abilities as far as I know, but such armor (and weapons) do exist, and a Claymore would win hands down with them.

Mandalorian armor is supposed to be some of the best armor in existance though.

Even if force abilities require targeting, the jedi are fully aware of everything due to their insane force-enchanced reflexes, so short of some of the fastest Claymores, a Claymore would be toast, hence why I mentioned single-digit level Claymores. The Teras Kasi I mentioned before are actually force users who specialize in body enchancement with force abilities, and they are actually able to take most Jedi with their bare-hands due to their highly-enchanced reflexes and speed/strength.

But I digress, it is too hard to compare and we should stop before a forum mod comes and smites us. :D

[Anima]

You can't imagine how tempted I was to click that Report to Moderator button :p
But you know the Claymore board is getting dull since we beat every possible subject to death with discussions. Now we need the next chapter and it better finish off Agatha in some wicked way :D

[NoSanninWa]

You can't imagine how tempted I was to click that Report to Moderator button :pI emphasize with you.

But you know the Claymore board is getting dull since we beat every possible subject to death with discussions. Now we need the next chapter and it better finish off Agatha in some wicked way :DIf you want to off-topic ramble about mandalorian armor, I'd suggest the monthly chapter thread. That's the place for "Oh lord I am so bored waiting for the next chapter." Umm... I mean... You should never go off topic.

[Anima]

Hahahaha, it backfired at me!

[Fenrir_valindri]

I emphasize with you.

If you want to off-topic ramble about mandalorian armor, I'd suggest the monthly chapter thread. That's the place for "Oh lord I am so bored waiting for the next chapter." Umm... I mean... You should never go off topic.


Noted for future reference. :D

[Siegzon Caritas]

But something else to consider, Force abilities seem to require targeting. So if the Claymore is moving too fast a Jedi really won't ever be able to hit them with the force.

Claymore faster than human speed is just a devastating rumbles board power. On some super hero rumbles boards the Flash consistently ranks way up there just due to getting the drop on the other guy. To bring that on topic to Power levels, youki schmouki, which one is the fastest is what I wanna know. Claire really showed the importance of blinding speed in her battle with Rigardo.

I mean even if you're Riful or Isley, If Clare's queen of swords form is powerful enough to cut the abyssal flesh and IF she's faster. it's La Machine.

The author took the easy way out with the Luciella and Isley fight by having them agree to go toe to toe. As well as being wrapped up quickly, Would have been a good opportunity to gauge abyssal powers. I guess the mechanics were not relevant to the story at that point. That was one of those clashes that deserved 20 pages.

[Lights of Euphoria]

The author took the easy way out with the Luciella and Isley fight by having them agree to go toe to toe. As well as being wrapped up quickly, Would have been a good opportunity to gauge abyssal powers. I guess the mechanics were not relevant to the story at that point. That was one of those clashes that deserved 20 pages.

That or he just got sick of it all and wanted a break...Trust me I know wery well what it's like to draw four straight hours in a row;
It's worse then all forms of medieval torture... Also knowing what it's like to come back from the break and look at your drawing and AFTER FOUR HOURS notice that the anatomy and proportions...are all wrong...

. . .

Help out the artists? Shoot us...

[Tempest35]

The author took the easy way out with the Luciella and Isley fight by having them agree to go toe to toe. As well as being wrapped up quickly, Would have been a good opportunity to gauge abyssal powers. I guess the mechanics were not relevant to the story at that point. That was one of those clashes that deserved 20 pages.

I think that he was smart not to show us the Isley/Luciela fight. Showing every fight isn't possible and it's not like we don't have indicators on just how powerful the battle was if Galatea felt the inital clash from literally miles away. Besides, we don't want to turn Claymore into a medival DBZ now do we? ^^

[Anima]

I would've thought that Yagi wanted to hide the fighting techniques of both but then we've seen Isley's fighting when he was in a critical position so he was serious. Also that was Luciela's last battle and the only thing we know about her fighting is that she has the ability to devour her opponents and that could justify the missing pieces from Isley after the battle. Tempest35 has a point tho, Galatea's sensing the battle is an indication of how powerful both were.

[khryoleoz]

I don't know about you guys, but everytime I watch or read the scene where Irene is first introduced, I find myself impressed all the time. I mean, what the heck do you do to not get even a stain of blood on you when it's pouring down like rain the way she did. I mean, dang, dude!

[Valduran]

Sophia was impressed also. :)

She must have been using her flash sword to block all the drops of blood ;)

[koffy]

She must have been using her flash sword to block all the drops of blood ;)

Thats correct, this is the point:D

[chibamonster]

That is the real technique that Teresa noticed when she said Irene's quick sword had progressed; Blood Umbrella.

[Tempest35]

I'd love to see just how Irene, Sophia, and Noel each would have cleared out a town/nest full of youma by themselves. It'd be enjoyable to watch since their styles are so different. Sophia would probably level the place though...:heh:

[Fenrir_valindri]

Hmm, just in the interest of stirring the pot, I wanted to bring up something.

What do you guys think of the power differences between Teresa's generation and Clare's?

For the purpose of this discussion I do want to leave out Alicia/Beth and Teresa/Priscilla, rather I am referring to the ranks below them. I would also like to leave Raphaela out of the discussion seeing as she is from a different generation.

While Galatea and Irene are comparable, Ophelia is definitely superior to Noel&Sophia, hell, even Miria is statistically superior to them.

Flora's stats are actually quite comparable to Noel's as well, and she is #8.

Is this a sign of the Organization trying to constantly improve the quality of its warriors? Or is Clare's generation simply superior by pure chance?

Just some food for thought.

[Sassarai]

I look at it like sports. It's all pure luck whether a generation surpasses the next and special warriors only appear once in a decade or so. In sports, certain drafts are weak as hell while others are loaded with talent.

The quality of the yoma materials dont seem to be improving since there are still so many Claymore fillers. Just look at Clarice.


My guess at least.

[khryoleoz]

It seems to me that Irene, Sophia and Noel were more highly specialized, and excelled very well, probably still unmatched, in their respective specialties. On the other hand, discounting Raphaela, Galatea and Ophelia were more well rounded, with Galatea specializing in yoki manipulation. Unfortunately, we know nothing of Teresa's generation below Noel. But, it also appears that Miria, Flora, and Jean are highly specialized people. Maybe the org upped the ante and thought it better to have their higher ranked people more well rounded.

But then again, as high as her own stats were Ophelia still wasn't a match for a one-armed Irene. There may be something to specialization after all. Teresa only defeated Irene because Teresa specializes in being a monster, as does Priscilla.

[Newhope]

They isn't really that much difference in power between the 75 and 76 generations its just that both generations had abnormal claymores in them Teresa/Priscilla for 75th and Alicia/Beth for the 76th generation.

I actually consider Galatea as the number one of clare's generation with Ophelia and Miria been the number 2 and 3, if you take Teresa/Priscilla out of the picture the 76th generation does seem to have the edge power wise.But we can't really know for sure because we never really saw anyone below number 5 from Teresa's generation.

[chibamonster]

With 77+ generations of claymores I wonder how many thousands of claymores have gone out into the world. Even a claymores stats don't reflect too much as they each have a specialized power that gives them an advantage in some situations and a disadvantage in others.

Really it doesn't seem to be in the best interest of the organization to make strong claymores. Just ones that can take out youma, and then a few well controlled ones that could take out AB's (which is how it seems to be). I am not even sure how much the organization has to do with a claymores power. They raised Alicia and Beth to be powerful but I don't know if strength is psychologically based in the claymore or based on the base material they use during the process.

If a claymore's strength is determined in a simmilar way to their being offensive or defensive then I would guess that all generations are about the same with a few occasional outliers. Isley and Luciella were about the same level and they had a huge gap between them. There are other explanations but if a claymores human heart is a big part of their power then I would guess that most generations would be the same with advances made in training making a big difference (although claymores really seem like they are on their own). It seems what the organization really wanted was a claymore who could rival the Abyssals as most of their focus has been on creating that warrior for at least 3 generations. Is it possible that Teresa and Priscilla were a simmilar failed experiment? It's all speculation as we have very little information on it.

[Anima]

But then again, as high as her own stats were Ophelia still wasn't a match for a one-armed Irene. There may be something to specialization after all. Teresa only defeated Irene because Teresa specializes in being a monster, as does Priscilla.
I think Ophelia lost to Irene because she was taking Irene as a regular human and once she was blocked she panicked and Irene just finished her work. I am not saying that Ophelia is as strong as Irene, it's just that if there was another encounter after the first one, Ophelia might actually inflect some damage on Irene somehow but then all those what-ifs are meaningless :D

It just occurred to me, that in 2013 (if we live to that date that is) and if this thread survives, one could read it and laugh his butt out at us :D
Isn't claymore supposed to end by around 160 chapters? if that was the case, then we barely just finished the introductory part of Claymore xD

I hope Claymore continues to be as interesting as it is now although I hate the waiting of 1 months between each chapter.

* Might goes in a hibernate mode for a couple of years and then come back.

P.S. was just browsing the official claymore website and found this:
http://mj.shueisha.co.jp/comics/claymore/img/prof_claymore12.jpg
So Clarice's hair color is that dark! I thought she was somewhat like Miria but a bit darker since she said it was stronger than her current one. Now I really wonder if she is truly a special creation or just a failure.

[Lights of Euphoria]

Does the Official Claymore Web page have an English translation?
My intellectual capacities go only so far...

[Zsych]

Clarice looks more like a total and complete failure. Negligible youki and no real expectation that someone like Teresa would be inside her, although I wonder what effect using the corpse of an awakened one to create a Claymore might have.

Regarding Teresa and Clare's generations... I don't think that Galatea would've stood up to Irene in a fight(before her blindness anyway)... Also I suspect that Galatea is from around Teresa's time, with the comment about her being so old.

As for the chapter turn out rate... I really wish that the Claymore mangaka would just hire more assistants and turn out 20 page chapters weekly. Its not like the story writer has to do the drawing himself(look at Stan Lee)

[Anima]

@Lights of Euphoria: Nothing that I am aware of except for the Viz Media website which doesn't hold much of details anyway.

Clarice looks more like a total and complete failure. Negligible youki and no real expectation that someone like Teresa would be inside her, although I wonder what effect using the corpse of an awakened one to create a Claymore might have.
Teresa inside Clarice?! what makes you think of that? Clare is the one who has Teresa. We really don't have any background about Clarice "creation". Now that I think about it, Clarice could end up being really special (not in a retarded way, mind you :p). We have to remember that she passed the claymore "graduation" test which (from extra scene #4) isn't the type of exam that many claymores pass.

She does seem to have deficiencies as a claymore (e.g. not being able to sense yoki all the time) but I am sure she is holding something she isn't aware of (or so I hope).

We haven't seen her trying to use yoki yet so we don't know how that would affect her. I have my own theories of how she might be special but since they are all baseless, I wont say anything just yet :D


As for the chapter turn out rate... I really wish that the Claymore mangaka would just hire more assistants and turn out 20 page chapters weekly. Its not like the story writer has to do the drawing himself(look at Stan Lee)
Amen to that.

[chibamonster]

I think Clarice has to have a surprise up her sleeve. Probably one she doesn't even know about. Creating a character this weak must have a purpose in the overall story line, and from how much panel time she has had it seems like she is not leaving any time soon. I am still not sure what her overall role will be.

Why is Clarice necessary to the story? Her fate seems tied completely to Miata now so the two of them must do something of significance to the world of claymore. Even if they killed Galatea (fat chance) they would have to do something else to really have an impact. Miata being as powerful as she is could have a big impact but she would have to do something with that power. I hope Clarice's relationship with Miata develops a bit more and we see her actually care for the feral child and overcoming her fear of her. Clarice's role seems to be the central focus of the story right now and I bet in the next few months we will really start to see why she is there.

*Clarice is going to half awaken two tails that have mouths all over them*

[Zsych]

@Anima: Regarding Clarice having someone like Teresa inside her, by that statement I meant that its unlikely that an experiement similar to Clare's was done on Clarice in the hopes of reviving a worthwhile former talent... thus leading to a weaker than normal Claymore being created.

--

As for what worth Clarice might have.... The Raki ,weakling worth less than nothing that manages to create some mildly emotional moments, worth I suppose. Some characters are put in only so they can die and make you feel bad... except that I don't care enough about the character to feel bad if she dies.

[chibamonster]

Even Raki had to do something redeeming to earn a place in the story; like help Clare partially awaken (and cook delicious BBQ southern cuisine). Once he had achieved his role the mangaka got rid of him until he could reintroduce him in a way that would make a difference. In his absence he gave Clare some motivation to survive and search for him but now that he is back he has a fairly important role of twisting Clare's goals around by being with Priscilla. Being a pacifier for the most powerful creature in the world might turn to be fairly useful.

As of yet Clarice hasn't done much to stake her claim on the story. She reported that there may have been survivors from the North but that hasn't done much yet. Although I think Helen, Deneve, and Miria knowing Clarice even though she doesn't know them will probably play a role in the future. She does owe her life to them even if she doesn't know it.

[Claymore_Obsessed]

As for the chapter turn out rate... I really wish that the Claymore mangaka would just hire more assistants and turn out 20 page chapters weekly. Its not like the story writer has to do the drawing himself(look at Stan Lee)

I'm inclined to disagree with that. :heh:
I'm happy to wait a few months as long as Yagi-sensei continues providing us with marvelous story & art ^^
If he were to draw 20 pages a week of fillers/bad drawings/boring stuff I would be really disappointed...

Imho, assistants are here to help the mangaka with scenery etc, not to fully take his/her place.
American comics is a different approach, there are characters from the 60s who have changed appearence, storyline etc etc a zillion times in a zillion parallel universes.
I don't want our Claymores to have different faces every week or so :heh:

[Anima]

I'm inclined to disagree with that. :heh:
I'm happy to wait a few months as long as Yagi-sensei continues providing us with marvelous story & art ^^
If he were to draw 20 pages a week of fillers/bad drawings/boring stuff I would be really disappointed...

Imho, assistants are here to help the mangaka with scenery etc, not to fully take his/her place.
American comics is a different approach, there are characters from the 60s who have changed appearence, storyline etc etc a zillion times in a zillion parallel universes.
I don't want our Claymores to have different faces every week or so :heh:
Why do you think that assistants will be used to aid story-wise? Yagi gives them the events, they draw them. That's all. It's not like he will let them work on fillers while he continues his story normally and that's what Zsych wrote: "Its not like the story writer has to do the drawing himself" ;)

if Claymore ever made it to become a weekly manga, this means we will see the end of this story by only having to wait less than 50% of the time we are supposed to wait currently. :3

I'd even love to have it released bi-weekly since we usually have around 30-40 pages which can be split into 2 parts. Although recently the number of pages is getting fewer :x

[stormy001_M1A2]

No way, I want artistic quality from the man himself not some 2nd hand assistant stuff. If it is monthly, it has to be good since it is done with passion and care, no need to go into the crass commercial weekly crap like Naruto.

Patience is best when comes to good stuff that is meant to be like a fine wine, not fatty fast food burger.

[Claymore_Obsessed]

Why do you think that assistants will be used to aid story-wise? Yagi gives them the events, they draw them. That's all. It's not like he will let them work on fillers while he continues his story normally and that's what Zsych wrote: "Its not like the story writer has to do the drawing himself" ;)

Well, imho a chapter a week is really demanding... to keep that rythm with a great plot he should have already planned it in full detail until the end at tankobon 25 (? don't remember the exact number).

Of course it's just my speculation, but I guess he has a general plot idea, but he needs to take his time and consider plot twists, character development and/or death, and how will be accepted by the readers...
consider how Claymore plot has developed from the beginning... imho he thought of all that great stuff little by little, he didn't have all clear right from the start.

If he runs out of ideas, to keep that rythm he would probably have fillers made by assistants while he thinks of new ideas, with an obvious quality drop...

As for the drawings... of course I don't demand that every mangaka has to draw everything by himself like Kentaro Miura, but I think drawings made (mainly) by the sensei are a great thing.
Getting the assistants to draw totally in place of the sensei would be wrong, imho. :)

[Anima]

I don't have the least of doubt that Yagi already knows how his story will finish since he decided the number of volumes/chapter to be released. Indeed some of the details might change over time but I am sure a broad idea of what will happen and even intermediate details are already planned and set.

Harry Potter's plot was in the planning process for about 3 years, IIRC, before the author even started writing the books! Indeed she admitted that she has killed few more characters on the go but the major outline is there. Given that we have already seen the quality of Yagi's story in Claymore I am sure he has given it some long time of thinking before he even started.

I didn't say that Yagi should stop drawing altogether but assistants are used to "assist" ;P

Either way, this is going off topic so I had another thing to discuss.

It made me wonder how Irene could tell how powerful Rafaela was given that Rafaela is suppressing her yoki all the time. She even asked why Rafaela was stuck in number 5 and not higher and Irene isn't your sensitive aura detector anyway. So how did she find out?

[chibamonster]

Anima, you know that when we get off topic we are supposed to rant and rave in the monthly thread :D. (I think off topic a little bit is fine as long as there are new posts. Nothing is worse than nothing.)

Irene was a pimp daddy at analyzing things. She also figured out Priscilla's power as well somehow when Noel needed to see a street full of dead youma to figure it out. It doesn't seem that Irene gained her information from just youki sensing but from thinking things through very thoroughly and quickly. Maybe Irene could hear Raphaela's sword being squeezed and figured out her strength or something. Really I have no idea. Irene was just too smart.

[Anima]

Anima, you know that when we get off topic we are supposed to rant and rave in the monthly thread :D. (I think off topic a little bit is fine as long as there are new posts. Nothing is worse than nothing.)
Oh but NSW is waiting there while holding his moderating stick! :heh:
I already got my first warning for posting a manga spoiler (inside SPOILER TAGS) in an anime thread (look at my profile) so I don't want to risk a ban, really :p

I know going off topic is hardly an "infraction" but I wanna play nice :D

Irene was a pimp daddy at analyzing things. She also figured out Priscilla's power as well somehow when Noel needed to see a street full of dead youma to figure it out. It doesn't seem that Irene gained her information from just youki sensing but from thinking things through very thoroughly and quickly. Maybe Irene could hear Raphaela's sword being squeezed and figured out her strength or something. Really I have no idea. Irene was just too smart.
That had me laughing. :heh:
But as for knowing about Priscilla, Irene did say that she saw her fighting so it wasn't just by rumors spreading. And I think what impressed Noel and Sophia mainly was that they couldn't sense any yoki from that fight altho it was very near. seeing the yoma chopped into small pieces in that small allay was a secondary factor IMO since they agreed that taking care of the whole town by one of them was possible.

P.S. Where is your colored Teresa avatar?

[chibamonster]

Oh, I got one of those infractions too. Someone asked a question (probably in the wrong thread) and I answered it and then BAM half the page was deleted and warnings everywhere.

I presume that Irene came from a family of traveling gypsies (Like Teresa) and learned to read people's power by palmastry or crystal ball. She's a fortune teller. It kind of explains her clothes.

As for my avatar, I kept getting confused at which avatar was mine, which was yours and which was Valduran's so I thought I would make it easier on myself. I have the same issue with first person shooters, I can't use my peripheral vision to tell if I fragged someone unless my name stays the same and taking my eyes off the center of the screen means less time for pwnage.

[Twisted Reality]

Why do you think that assistants will be used to aid story-wise? Yagi gives them the events, they draw them. That's all. It's not like he will let them work on fillers while he continues his story normally and that's what Zsych wrote: "Its not like the story writer has to do the drawing himself" ;)

if Claymore ever made it to become a weekly manga, this means we will see the end of this story by only having to wait less than 50% of the time we are supposed to wait currently. :3

I'd even love to have it released bi-weekly since we usually have around 30-40 pages which can be split into 2 parts. Although recently the number of pages is getting fewer :x
I'm under the impression that having "assistants" works best for animation. You still need the creative mastermind to draw the key frames to get a basic sense of the action that he's trying to convey. This is why Japanese studios can occassionally send their key frames out to a Korean studio to finish up. (I suspect this is largely why Claymore looked so awful in animation.)

Manga, or comics, are essentially nothing *but* key frames that you don't even really have to go back and color. Assistants are redundant.

Anima, you know that when we get off topic we are supposed to rant and rave in the monthly thread :D. (I think off topic a little bit is fine as long as there are new posts. Nothing is worse than nothing.)

Irene was a pimp daddy at analyzing things. She also figured out Priscilla's power as well somehow when Noel needed to see a street full of dead youma to figure it out. It doesn't seem that Irene gained her information from just youki sensing but from thinking things through very thoroughly and quickly. Maybe Irene could hear Raphaela's sword being squeezed and figured out her strength or something. Really I have no idea. Irene was just too smart.
As for Irene's powers of observation: She's the wise monk upon the mountain, living a life of contemplation and silence. She's what we'd call the "common sense" person, a cautious and pragmatic person by nature. This is pretty much why she's a favorite of mine. Her powers reflect her meditative and focused nature.

Storywise, I'd explain her ability to size-up-people the way you'd size up prize-fighting cock or race horse. Subtle body cues, emotional maturity, overall confidence of body movement, whatever pings off of her Yoki radar, etc. Of course, thinking things through quickly and analytically is one of the things you'd have to develop if having flawless concentration is your shtick.

[Tempest35]

Well, out of everyone out of that time currently, she knew Teresa the best (despite Teresa's hiding of her awesome powah). Her analytical mind was her greatest asset along with her Quicksword technique. And Irene was already close to power to Raphaela in terms of overall power (stats) so if anyone could tell that Raphaela was hiding her true power, it would be Irene. If we look at it this way, the only time she was really fooled was in Teresa's case and that's saying a lot in defense of our dear elven-eared, bondage outfit wearing mistress :D.

[Zsych]

Teresa was probably levels of awesomeness too high for Irene to even recognize the indicators :P

As for drawing, other people using a drawing style isn't impossible, there are a lot of people who can copy other people's styles(especially when the characters are already defined). Even in American comics, other artists have maintained a previous artist's work when necessary(and moved to their own style later if possible). If Yagi weren't drawing all the time it would give him more time to think about the story.

Regarding the anime... they don't pay animators enough to do a really good job most of the time. I did like the look of some characters like Miria better in the anime version though.

[chibamonster]

I still hold that Teresa had a deep dark secret to hide from the organization. I'm standing on it and no one is changing my mind until the manga says different :D (or unless someone has some reavelation about the story I completely missed).

Whatever Yagi is doing is obviously working so I wouldn't want to upset his balance too much. He already puts out far more material than most American artists and he does keep a schedule. Not to mention that he writes it himself as well.

[Zsych]

Its the expected 6 years till the story ends that bothers me.
I'm reminded of the annoying 2 year waits between novels in the Wheel of Time series.

Yagi had turned enough material for a 26 ep anime, in the period of 6 years....

Besides, I doubt you can use your complete imagination and do all that you want to do when you can only turn out so much material a month. In a series intended to last 12 years, that ran weekly, stories could be exponentially more complex or details if the writer so desired.

I also think that the lack of material and the slowly moving story due to the month delays, is part of why Claymore doesn't have much more of a presence. I like it more than the likes of Naruto for example, but it really isn't anywhere near as popular... though the anime probably brought in some more viewers(like me :P ) I'm almost amazed really that a comic that I love had actually been around for more than 6 years without me even having heard about it.

[aurr]

It again me with the simple question what co,es up my simple mind.
Would you want to be a Claymore in Claymoreverse? With all the pluses and minuses.

[chibamonster]

I'd awaken. It wouldn't be the danger so much as the job; I'd just get tired of someone else controlling every aspect of my life. As an AB you can do whatever you want and no one tells you anything. Hopefully I'd be powerful enough not to be killed by the organization or smart enough to avoid them all together.

Sure it's cute to have Galatea as a nun, and Teresa with Clare but what if an AB wanted a family? Youma have been smart enough to live in one town and eat in another so hey, it could happen :D.

[Anima]

I'd awaken. It wouldn't be the danger so much as the job; I'd just get tired of someone else controlling every aspect of my life. As an AB you can do whatever you want and no one tells you anything. Hopefully I'd be powerful enough not to be killed by the organization or smart enough to avoid them all together.

Sure it's cute to have Galatea as a nun, and Teresa with Clare but what if an AB wanted a family? Youma have been smart enough to live in one town and eat in another so hey, it could happen :D.
Hah! so chibamonster was really intentional!

Personally, I'd go with the claymore life. Who doesn't want to have a super body with great endurance and even regenerative powers? Walking for days with no sleeping and food is really appealing to me :p Calling forth powers on demand and having an aura around you is awesome.
Although the idea of immortality makes me shiver. I think immortality is hideous.

But I am glad there others who think the manga should also be given more love :D

[Zsych]

I'd take being a Claymore.... a male one preferably(I'll manage to handle the Awakening issue), but what the hell, even being a female one would be okay.

... and I for one would appreciate immortality. Endless years to learn and grow(and surpass everyone and everything in existence)

[irvinethearcher]

It's not so easy to surpass your own potential even if you have eternity as an allie.

[Zsych]

Who says my potential is limited? :)
In any case I'd want personal growth more than physical growth.

btw, are there new stats or some such available for the post 7 years, Clare, Miria, etc.

[Lights of Euphoria]

The idea of being a Claymore sounds too fun...and depressive...

I presume that Irene came from a family of traveling gypsies (Like Teresa) and learned to read people's power by palmastry or crystal ball. She's a fortune teller. It kind of explains her clothes.

Eh?

[Fenrir_valindri]

Who says my potential is limited? :)
In any case I'd want personal growth more than physical growth.

btw, are there new stats or some such available for the post 7 years, Clare, Miria, etc.

There are no post-Pieta stats for anyone, probably due to the fact we have not gotten to see the 7 Ghosts fight at all yet, not to mention the power levels for Miata/Blind-Galatea, # 3, 5, 7, are still blurry when compared to others.

So we probably won't be seeing them for a while.

[Voracious Reader]

There are no post-Pieta stats for anyone, probably due to the fact we have not gotten to see the 7 Ghosts fight at all yet, not to mention the power levels for Miata/Blind-Galatea, # 3, 5, 7, are still blurry when compared to others.

So we probably won't be seeing them for a while.
Not to mention that there probably won't be any more volumes of the catch-up omnibus edition where they were included as an extra any time soon, because those were aimed at the anime watchers.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Not to mention that there probably won't be any more volumes of the catch-up omnibus edition where they were included as an extra any time soon, because those were aimed at the anime watchers.

Those info-books are actually quite insightful, and not sure if they were aimed at anime-watchers or not, they did have several Manga-only references in them.

I could see more of them coming out when Claymore is done, or if we have another time skip.

[Voracious Reader]

Those info-books are actually quite insightful, and not sure if they were aimed at anime-watchers or not, they did have several Manga-only references in them.

I could see more of them coming out when Claymore is done, or if we have another time skip.
Huh?
I'm not sure you understood me.
Let's unravel it a bit:
Last summer/fall they compiled most of the manga into three telephone-book-sized volumes (just some of the most early and all of the most recent chapters missing) and sold them for a price not much higher than normal graphic novels there. Obviously aimed at anime watchers due to the timing, and because manga readers had already read the manga. But, probably to make the most obsessive-compulsive of manga readers buy it too, even though many of them already had bought it two times, in the form of the magazines and the graphic novels, they included extras.
Namely what we call data books here, i.e. the info pages titled 討妖録 touyouroku and a couple of 4 panel comics.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Where those the same books that had the stats for the Claymores in them? I was under the impression they were different books.

[Mikke]

Hey.. Does it say anywhere which number was Clare's friend Elena? 46?

[Fenrir_valindri]

They never really say, we can assume she is a low number due to the MiB allowing someone as weak as Clare to carry out a black-card for her.

My bet is she was somewhere in the 40s range.

Even in the Data-books they never say her number.

[Voracious Reader]

Hey.. Does it say anywhere which number was Clare's friend Elena? 46?
It was never revealed, but the Claymore wiki (http://www1.atwiki.jp/claymore/pages/79.html) estimates her as #46, too.
Since they managed to link all numbers from 1-47 to characters who appeared in the manga, even if some are nameless, it's a bit more than just a guess, but Elena's number might have been reassigned some time before Pieta and in that case there is really no way to know.

[Mikke]

They never really say, we can assume she is a low number due to the MiB allowing someone as weak as Clare to carry out a black-card for her.

My bet is she was somewhere in the 40s range.

Even in the Data-books they never say her number.

Untill the first extra scene I thought that the concept of delivering the black card was on terms of good will and mutual agreement so any power gaps become irrelevant. I believe that the Clare/Elena case is the most common still, since it was quite obvious to teresa that rosemary just used the black card to lure her out and fight.. Teresa was famous and everybody both feared and admired her, but I don't think that those two had anything more than that between them.
I think it's possible for a strong claymore to want a weaker one take her life.

[Fenrir_valindri]

The question is, would the Organization send that Claymore alone to handle the job? or maybe they just don't care enough in most situations :uhoh:

[chibamonster]

If a claymore didn't want to be killed by anyone else they would most likely just not send a card at all and just awaken. Rosemary's case would be an exception. It seems that most situations would be like Elaine and Hilda's where they wanted to see someone one last time before they lost themselves. The organization doesn't seem to care about awakened beings nearly as much as a claymore cares if they become one.

[Anima]

The organization doesn't seem to care about awakened beings nearly as much as a claymore cares if they become one.
That was the old way, my friend. The Org sends their forces after ABs whenever they get info about them without the need for a request (Clarice introduction chapter).

I wonder if the black card system evolved to to take care of the to-be-born AB.

[Lights of Euphoria]

Probably. It would be the most effective way to do it without much trouble. ANd as an added bonus you get to see you comrade one last time.

[chibamonster]

Yeah, I was referring to the older way because that is the only time we ever saw the black cards being used. Really I'm not sure how much the organization has changed and intentionally left it out of my post. But maybe I do have to cover myself by adding parenthetical statements to everything.

Even before the Black Card system there appeared another solution to take care of to-be-born AB's. We saw it in the slashers arc; get a bunch of 'at risk' Claymores together and have them fight an AB they are not powerful enough for and observe them to make sure they die. That seems to be the real counter balance to the black card system. All the fab 4 had issues with the organization and had gone over their limits. If nothing else they were trouble makers and if they had gotten that close to awakening before who was to say they would not do it again? They were right about Miria after all, she does want revenge on the organization and had been actively searching for information. She may have been justified in her actions but from the organization's point of view she was a definite trouble maker.

The black card is a way to go gracefully if a claymore has the organizations approval. If not they get sent on nasty missions, like getting paired with Ophelia or getting sent to Pieta. It used to be if they awakened they would be treated as a youma but now the organization is actively hunting AB's.

[Fenrir_valindri]

New chapter is out, and Miata certain impressed in the latest chapter, even if she did get injured badly.

She displayed an immense amount of strength in actually pulling Agatha towards her. Later she reattaches her arms in what appears to be record time, and without Agatha even noticing. She also takes a incrediable amount of damage, but is still able to get up, despite being impaled.

The main things to notice is that Miata appears to have impressive regeneration speed, which brings us to question, is she a offensive type (and just has a huge amount of Yoki like Priscilla), or is she defensive, or is she even similiar to Alicia/Beth and is "Unique?"

Also, I'm willing to bet Miata has an A+ in strength. ;)


Another thing worthy of noting, apparently Galatea can't "see" the 7 ghosts, so natural supression appears to be more effective then the pills.

[Newhope]

Miata's more than likey ranked A to S in everything apart from maybe leadership. What really impressed me was despite all the injures and pain she's showed no signs of awakening.

Also her ability to reattach her hands without yoki release is even more impressive than Priscilla's.It means she's very good at yoki manipulation or she has another skill Unique to her other than her senses.

[Bikerider]

Latest chapter (77) will put to rest any doubts Clare isn't top 5 equivalent or better now. And probably top 10 for all the Ghostly 7.

[Fenrir_valindri]

People actually doubted that? Miria herself said that Clare would be the equivilent of a high-ranking single-digit, as is Miria herself, the rest of the fab4 can't be far behind, and the 3 non-awakaned are probably in the low-teens to high single digit area, (maybe not Yuma.)

[Valerian Mengsk]

I would put Yuma in the low 20's or high 10's, as for the rest, that sounds about right.