[Jap-Manga] Claymore Statistics, Power Levels, and Theories

[mysociallink2]

Yeah, it is rather vague, but it is just the way they chose to portray things.

Leadership and Mental are rather vague too tbh.

What was vague?
http://www.mmorpg-guy.com/pics/am.jpg
http://www.mmorpg-guy.com/pics/am1.jpg
http://www.mmorpg-guy.com/pics/am2.jpg

[Fenrir_valindri]

Those pics you posted aren't showing up, but what I meant was vague was does leadership apply to the tactical level? The Strategic level? Maybe even simply a personality and charisma that allows them to lead better?

Much like agility, it is a combination of things.


Mental is in a similar situation, it can apply to how stable their personality is, how easy it is for them to control their Yoki, and their force of will.

[irvinethearcher]

I don't see Teresa's consciousness being in Clare having any positive effect on the story
Not the consciousness, the memorys and perhaps what she knew about the org or her life as a claymore.
About clare's progress in sensing:
You can't say that this progress was a steady progress.
I think that this dream helped her somehow to get the sensing done the right way. Or in other words, without this dream she probably got killed by the paburo - ab.To switch between defense and offense was something she had not trained so far. I mean, why this strange dream before she kicked the AB's ass to the total surprise of us all?
By the way, i think miria's ab-form would ressemble to a cheetah;)
I have no idea how clare would look like.

[Tempest35]

By the way, i think miria's ab-form would ressemble to a cheetah;)


Think she'd look like Cheetra? :D

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1420/che3cj0.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=che3cj0.jpg)
This is an artist rendition...not the official Cheetra look mind you.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I don't think she would look animal based tbh; not all AB follow that trend.

Not entirely sure what her Awakened form would look like; considering Jean almost turned into a butterfly and Clare was turning into some freakish monster (even for an AB)

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

so far, all female ABs resembles naked women with stuff around

[Ryuken]

Hmmm! If Clare would ever awaken fully she would loose all her clothes.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

then she will approach Rubel and say: I need your clothes, your boots, and your glasses =P

[Vinak]

Clare: Take off your clothes.
Rubel: Patience, honey.
[Clare steps up onto the stage]
Rubel: Whoa, bitch. Wait your turn.
Clare: Your clothes.
Rubel: Talk to the hand.
[Clare grabs his hand and speaks to it]
Clare: Now.

.......

Hmmm! If Clare would ever awaken fully she would loose all her clothes.

I always envisioned her having some kind of Angelic awakened form. maybe more mecha'ish. she would have wings with blades for feathers.

as for Miria....i have no idea maybe, maybe she'll have a mask on...nod towards phantom of the opera.

[Ryuken]

as for Miria....i have no idea maybe, maybe she'll have a mask on...nod towards phantom of the opera.

Haha! funny @Vinak.:heh:

[Neesan]

Dont you think the members of draconic tribe can put the island's abissals in a pocket? :)

[Valerian Mengsk]

Well, since we are half way through the series, its now or never for yagi-sensei to decide to up the power bar in the Claymore verse. Personally, I doubt it.

[yogi6807]

the only thing i could guess would be the raph an luci statue thing and whatever those draconic things are.

[Awakened]

just read chap 81

I think Lucila will be to her sister like Irene arm is to Clare.

They might not have allot of yoki, but they will have some strong ability because of the combined body.

[weirdo487]

just read chap 81

I think Lucila will be to her sister like Irene arm is to Clare.

They might not have allot of yoki, but they will have some strong ability because of the combined body.

umm i'm wondering if i missed something now, wouldn't the lucila-Raphila combo be an abyssal times 2 since both of them were equal in power???

[khryoleoz]

Maybe not. We're not necessarily getting the power of 2 AOs combined, but one that is a freak union. Like Clare in whose body the powers of Teresa were adulterated, we could see the same thing here. At best, we see no change, as the two were made out of the same yoma material like the twins (probably).

[Double_friedman]

just read chap 81

I think Lucila will be to her sister like Irene arm is to Clare.

They might not have allot of yoki, but they will have some strong ability because of the combined body.

Maybe not. We're not necessarily getting the power of 2 AOs combined, but one that is a freak union. Like Clare in whose body the powers of Teresa were adulterated, we could see the same thing here. At best, we see no change, as the two were made out of the same yoma material like the twins (probably).

I have the same theory about it, Luciella will be for Rafaella as Irene's arms is for Claire.
:heh:

[Ryuken]

I like all the abilities that they have. And I thought of something else too. An ability to bring out or force out the suppression of all sorts. Now that would be something. It should come under manipulation I think. Miata can sense suppression but cannot force it out. This is what I mean. Maybe it's just a happy thought, but not at all practical.

[Double_friedman]

By the time of the witch's maw, Alicia said she was able to do 50% of damage and then die. Then I thought about Isley and Rigaldo, it wasn't never stated how powerful he was compared with Isley. What damage do you think Rigaldo would be able to do on Isley?
Maybe 50%, 30%? I'm pretty sure is less than 51% because the Abeing who was with DUlph said Isley kicked Rigardo's ass, so it has to be a huge difference.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think Alicia would have torn Rigaldo in half, even pre-soul link.

I'd say Rigaldo was maybe 20-30% of Isley's ability; and that is me being generous.

---------


I thought of something recently.

Since Cynthia is capable of helping people heal; possibly even help offensive types regenerate limbs, I think that it is quite possible Irene may still be alive.


Note that in the most recent chapter Cynthia is one of the people that will be one of the people traveling with Clare, and Miria wants them to settle "unfinished business" and we all know that Clare will probably end up traveling back to where Irene was hiding eventually.

Now that we know Raphaela is not hiding out in that log-cabin, I theorize that Irene was left alive by her would-be executioner, possible to spite the Organization; possibly something else.

Now that we have Cynthia, it is quite possible that we may get to see a full strength Irene in action once again due to her help.

-----

Of course it is entirely founded on so called "reading-in-between the lines," so I claim no evidence other then Cynthia having the capability of helping other Claymores heal.

[evil_kenshin]

While true Illena could still be alive, it will take away the dark feel of Claymore if everyone keeps reappearing after through dead (though thats just my feeling).

[Fenrir_valindri]

Well, we really never found out if Irene died or not tbh, as so many Irene-fans have pointed out.

Not many people come back from the dead either, last time I checked a vast majority of characters that died, are still quite dead.

Only exceptions are the Ghosts + Irene (and Irene again, if Raphaela really didn't kill her)

[Sleepy Speculator]

Well to add my two cents, i'd have to say that if Clare does find Ilena alive it might get a bit bloody as the arm is forcefully returned... in a reversal of how she got the arm in the first place. And i don't know what to think of Cynthia's ability... would she be able to help Clare regenerate her arm, or will Clare cheat and use the Deneve partial awakening regeneration trick.

It's something i've been wondering about abit and that is to what extent does being an AB gain a regeneration advantage as compared to that of claymores...

The offensive claymores are certainly considered more powerful in their use of yoki, but they can only regenerate/heal wounds to the extent of the human body, if they lost an arm they could get a human arm back, but not a hybrid one, and of course that takes time, basically healing, more than regenration.

The defensive claymores can regenerate fully over time

The offensive AB's can regenerate if what Ophelia stated was true, but accordingly they aren't necessarily very good at it, if what Riful says about Duph and what Helen implies about offensive AB's lacking the 'instant' part of regeneration. So basically regeneration over time, the same as a defensive claymore. And despite Ophelia's shape shifting etc she didn't actually seem to regenerate anything.

Yet defensive AB's gain 'instant regeneration'. And this is what Deneve can mimic.

Now here's the curious thing, each and everytime Clare has gone over her limit ie. partial awakening she's displayed the use of what seems to be 'instant regeneration'. Something an awakened offensive claymore shouldn't have. It's only because of my long standing theory with regards to Teresa being defensive that it occured to me that Clare could be an offensive claymore with defensive AB yoki. (much of which revolves around the use of manipulation/alignment etc)

Her wounds from the yoma in Rabona were implied to be completeley gone, and she recovered from blood loss that triggered the awakening.
Her legs were instantly and fully reattached when she awakened infront of Ophelia
And she healed her smashed feet and rescued Galatea from Riful.

Awhile ago someone made a long running and interesting argument that Clare was infact a defensive claymore despite the weight of evidence saying she was offensive. Much of which revolved around her healing abilities and survival of a fatal stomach wound.

So i put forward the theory that all the things Clare does that shock people are the result of having inherited the opposite brand of yoki, from her mother figure. The combination of techniques, is something that normal offensive or defensive claymores are incapable of. Galatea for example would be incapable of stopping Duph's arms back in the witch's maw using just yoki manipulation, and Irene's flashsword isn't really controllable, to the extent that Clare was using it.

The Raphealla/Luciella fusing implies a foreshadowing that will probably be relevent to Clare in some way but that's speculation for another time.

[Fenrir_valindri]

It is implied that going over your limit causes a burst of energy that heals your body instantly, as seen with Jean's wounds, despite being impaled in her awakened form when she returned to her human form she was fully healed.


It seems likely that the initial "surge" of energy heals the body completely in preparation of the transformation; it is just that instead of finishing the transformation; the partially awakened return to their initial state; thus having their wounds fully healed.

Priscilla is offensive, but also shows traits of "instant" regeneration; if we are to believe that Teresa's yoma bits play a big role in Clare's abilities (and they do) then it is quite likely that the surge of Yoki simply reaches this "peak" level and heals the injuries instantly; much like it does for Priscilla.


---

Very interesting though.

[Gooral]

Yep, it's very interesting theory Sleepy but I don't buy it because it's based on speculation that awakened offensive claymore shouldn't have ability to instantly regenerate himself and Clare isn't an awakened one. Every time Clare recovered from serious wounds was when she partially awakened, i.e. she had the same body (size, structure, etc.). Dauff on the other hand was humongous, his one finger is of the size of Galatea. I'm guessing that if he lost his arm when he was in human form he could regenerate instantly (we can see that although Isley lost half of his body he's human body had no injuries). Note that when Ophelia cut Clare's arm off she couldn't do it instantly, we could see she wasn't good at it, if she was defensive type or a hybrid of offensive and defensive I don't think she would have much trouble with it.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Thanks fenrir, gooral, i often forget certain points whilst theorising, but i went and had a look and apart from the databooks i couldn't see that Priscilla was registered as offensive or defensive either, like Tereesa ... that aside...

Consistent with just the healing through awakening, the awakened Katea and Jean of course had no wounds...., yet in the same time period Duph was unable to heal the scratches on his face he received from Clare and Galatea, and obviously bemoaned the loss of his hand, which if you can regenerate is a strange thing to be complaining about. Surely by the theory of instantaneous healing during awakening, he could just power down and re-awaken to get his hand back, without the problem of having to regenerate.

Isley also healed between his two forms, or the wound he received to his awakened form just didn't effect his human form, much as Ophelia states that she has concentrated all the human parts, and watches almost impassively as her Awakened body gets cut to shreds.

Similarly Rigald wanted to reattach his arm, because he was obviously incapable of significant regeneration. (yes i know he was in battle at the time)

Well the more i look at it the more confusing it becomes, so i'll attempt to elaborate, with more theory.

- Priscilla can't actually instantaneously regenerate, she could extend her yoma flesh, and aura and mimic using alteration the lost arms in her attack against Isley, i think Rigald even says that it's not 'instantaneous regeneration', and if you look at her arms afterwards the are still altered tenticles... (so it does appear she is an offensive AB, which is consistent with the arm extension trick she pulled against Teresa, which Helen uses, if that is only available to one type of claymore that is)

- Both Priscilla's and Isley's human forms showed no injuries whatsoever from the battle as AB's. So either the transformation 'each way' provides healing, or in a strange way the wounds of one body doesn't affect the other. (this is where i think the size difference can be discounted as awakened Priscilla isn't much bigger than her human form or so it seems)

- I would like to point out that the AB's Rigald,Riful and Duph spent alot of time running around in human form, so why would Riful who you would expect to be knowledgeable about such a trick not suggest such a course of action to Duph? Instead it's implied his large missing hand, would need to be regenerated over time.

- We haven't seen any examples of someone going back and forth much except Clare, and if Riful was just winding Duph up it may be that the process provides regeneration, or alternately it could indeed mean that the Awakened body can carry different wounds to the human one. Which would mean as soon as Duph re-awakened he'd still need to regenerate that missing hand.

Which brings us all the way around to the only other character that could inform which is true... Jean, however Jean's stomach which was the only wounded area pre-awakening we couldn't properly see, much as we want to know the claymore scar riddle as well. If you take a look it is of course constantly shadowed out to hide not only the supposed scar but the area that was supposed to be wounded... 'damn yagi is clever'. Lol i just had to try and see if i was wrong, and noticed she has a pole through her left leg as well, just about the area her arm covers in the scene where she is naked. (talk about coincidence)

So to continue with this speculation,
What if the AB body is different to the claymore body, wounds as well, and that there is no 'healing' effect between the two?

It would imply that the only two claymores who have actually received healing in such a manner are Deneve and Clare, and Deneve is obviously defensive and uses the upper band of yoki 'AB yoki' for instantaneous regeneration as if she was 'awakened', and that every time Clare has healed herself she is doing the same thing. Especially when she healed her crushed feet by breaking the limit, in the witches maw, v.similar to what Deneve did to the extent that Galatea comments on it. I'm not including limb reattachment here as it's something that AB's have done in combat a couple of times one of which was Priscilla and the other the 6 armed AB.

Okay so of course my wall of sheer speculation is pretty flimsy, but i think that it could help Clare get her arm back with regeneration as she 'nears her limit'. The point being that when she attempted regeneration back when Ophelia cut her, she tried using her own yoki rather than the pool inherited from Teresa, that's above the 80% freshhold ie towards the AB domain. If she has inherited a defensive style yoki above her limit then she gains the benefits when she uses it. Which happens to be everytime she's partially awakened.

Just an idea of course, but it could explain why, their are some oddities regarding the subject.

[Rolyn]

wow claymores are freakin tall o.0

[Fenrir_valindri]

Fyi, both Priscilla and Teresa are listed as Offensive types by the Databooks; in the same section that describes their abilities.

I would also like to point out that Isley was still missing an arm when he returned to his human form in the extra chapter; indicating he still had some of the injuries from his battle with Priscilla.

Also note that Isley retained several injuries from his battle with Lucalea in his human form when Riful arrived.

However Priscilla did completely heal upon returning to her human form. (Indicating she throws out "burst" level energy like it is normal :uhoh: )

------

I made note of healing by going over ones limit as a "surge of Yoki" this surge probably can't be replicated by a Warrior who has already awakened; as their transformation is complete; thus their bodies are "set" so to speak.

But a partial-awakening shifts you between the two extremes and thus allows the warrior to perform incredible feats during this "burst" period.

[Double_friedman]

Fyi, both Priscilla and Teresa are listed as Offensive types by the Databooks; in the same section that describes their abilities.

I would also like to point out that Isley was still missing an arm when he returned to his human form in the extra chapter; indicating he still had some of the injuries from his battle with Priscilla.

Also note that Isley retained several injuries from his battle with Lucalea in his human form when Riful arrived.

However Priscilla did completely heal upon returning to her human form. (Indicating she throws out "burst" level energy like it is normal :uhoh: )

------

I made note of healing by going over ones limit as a "surge of Yoki" this surge probably can't be replicated by a Warrior who has already awakened; as their transformation is complete; thus their bodies are "set" so to speak.

But a partial-awakening shifts you between the two extremes and thus allows the warrior to perform incredible feats during this "burst" period.

Yes, check this, you can see Isley doesn't have his arm (and is nude :eyespin:)

Priscila's regenerating abilities are that way because of the quantities of yoki inside of her.

I'm thinking of Luciella, by the time she was running away from Isley, her entire body was intact, she only was tired. Do you think Isley didn't inflict much damage on her or she also has many yoki inside her body??

[khryoleoz]

She's been eating him, and his flesh wasn't only poor in nutrients, but toxic. So she's messed up from the inside.

I can only imagine the regenerative abilities of Teresa. What a monster that would have been.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Would probably be the same as Priscilla's, considering their overall ability was pretty close. (Whether you think one or the other had the greater potential)

[khryoleoz]

I'm thinking they'd be slightly different in this way. Because Priscilla is naturally suppressing herself, we see her do what she does. She gets hurt, but immediately her oozing youki heals her as though she never got hurt. Maybe, because Teresa is so naturally strong and that she has to try hard to suppress her powers, she'd be completely invulnerable so that she couldn't be hurt in the first place as her power would always be oozing out. It's like both of them have big dicks. Priscilla's get big when she's aroused, but Teresa is always walking with a hard-on.

You know, now that I read that back, that's a disgusting horribly sick analogy to put Teresa in. Sorry.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Well it certainly looks like Isley lost his arm, but he can only be seen in 3 shots, and 2 have the angle where the arm isn't visible and the third has his hair blowing about over what would be the wounded area... contrast this with every other missing arm and it's a bit obscure...

Isley ES3 pg 31
Ilena 24 pg 13
Clare 35 pg 26
Uma 54 pg 19
Galatea 75 pg 30
Renee 82 pg 1

Damn but that's alot of arms that get lost in the claymore universe. I'm just wondering if we've misread that whole situation, much as we misread the Rapheala bear hug of death. The more conclusive evidence is of course the wounded look he has after the fight with Luciella (thanks friedman) but Luciella had no wounds similar to Priscilla, which would imply she was the winner of the fight purely on that basis.

I'm a little uneasy on submitting the theory that everything is reliant on a burst or surge of yoki, because to get back to my main theory i don't think that's what Priscilla did. For sure yoki is used for regeneration, but the shape alteration into tentacles and Rigalds comments about it 'not' being instantaneous regeneration leads me to suspect that just cos an AB has yoki doesn't mean they can use it for regeneration, no matter how much. I'd accept that after the fight when she reverted to human form as the stomach wound healed over she used regeneration of a sorts, but it also seems that such an act caused her to regress mentally if not physically as well.

The problem i have with the 'surge' not being available to AB's as a means of healing is that everytime an AB goes... well AB mode they clearly have a surge of yoki around them... Which 'if' and i mean big 'if' according to my theory isn't of any relevence to offensive AB's. Now you could say that also they AB could 'burst' their yoki for healing purposes whilst actually being awakened, but like a claymore it's just effort and yoki expenditure regardless, and yoki seems to be finite, if we take Luciella as an example, as she could no longer even maintain her awakened form.

But to get back to my theory if Clare was a defensive AB (should she ever awaken, due to inherting Teresa's flesh) then the reason she could mimic Deneve's trick because if Deneve awakened she too would be an example of a Defensive AB. Not because of a 'surge' or 'burst' of yoki instantly and miraculously heals the claymore fully. There's not much to proove it and i'm just randomly speculating, but the ability to heal a shattered foot might be a notch above the normal AB regenration ability, since it would be harder than reattaching a limb by all accounts.

[Double_friedman]

Hello. Well, I've read some pages and I want to say some things:

-I think Luciella ran away from the battle with Isley because she was exhausted and knew she was going to run out of yoki in any instant and realised that Isley, despite his wounds, was still able to fight.
This situation is, for example, when I'm playing Dance D. Revolution with a friend (we have three songs), we got the same grade in the first song, but in second I got a better one. We both are exhausted, but I realised I'll run out of stamina and I won't be able to finish the last song but my friend will be, so I leave the competition.
-I think the Yoki pool and the yoki usage idea is totally right, otherwise Priscilla couldn't be able in her entire life to surpass Teresa.
-There is a "yoki memory" like muscular memory. We all saw when Claire was at north and was paralized, she asked Irene to help her, and the arm acted by itself when she felt the danger. The same when Claire found Ophelia AB, the arm warned her there was a monster close.
-I think defensive types are able to use their yoki to create new members because of the composition of their body in the transformation. Everybody can heal, but not everybody can create a member. By the way, do you think if Isley had an "accident" while being with a girl (or a boy) awakened being, someone like Luciella who eats everything, would be able to regenerate it?:eyespin::p
-I definitely think that Deneve, or any defensive claymore, has to use yoki to regenerate her body.

-I have a doubt, I've just read that yoki sensing requires 0%-30% of yoki, it means that you are able to sense yoki when you're using 30% of yoki, otherwise you'll get confused with your own yoki??

[graywolf202]

Hullo everyone. Just a thought. It is generally agreed that Claymores/Abs/Yoma use Yoki for regeneration, increase in body mass, etc.

What if it's not Yoki itself? Don't forget the Yoma flesh. Consider the following assumptions:

Yoma flesh:
> tough, strong, resilent, and most especially can change properties from rigid to flexible, soft to hard, etc
> under the proper conditions, can replicate themselves rapidly
> under the proper conditions, can self destruct rapidly
> some of the changes that can be controlled by the mind directly (like moving a muscle for humans)
> however, if the changes required are drastic, Yoki is required

Ok so here's how it works:

Rapid regeneration: Use Yoki to rapidly create Yoma flesh.

Limb extension: Use Mind to extend arms to a certain reach. If longer reach is required, Yoki is needed to produce extra flesh by stimulating Yoma flesh replication.

Awakened form: Massive amounts of Yoki needed to hyper-replicate large amounts of Yoki flesh. However, since this is somewhat not a "natural form," newly created Yoma flesh disintegrates once there isn't enough Yoki. [Or think of it like Yoma flesh is continuously reproduced and annihilated such that there is an equilibrium. If there is not enough Yoki to use in reproduction, annihilation becomes more dominant so the awakened form disappears.]

Bah, I think I messed up somewhere.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think it is implied that Yoma flesh uses Yoki to perform feats such as regeneration.

I do however think Yoma flesh is responsible for the Ghosts being able to do most of their techniques without using Yoki.

[ichigobankai]

So I'm wondering..

What does the Yoki level mean? What does the Yoki really do in a fight for Claymores if they don't release it. Is is something that is always there that they use as they move, increasing constantly their strength and speed or is it something they only activate for special techniques/release? I'ts something I've always wondered, how in fact the Yoki factor works out.

What would be the difference in a fight between 2 Claymores with all A stats, but one with S for Yoki and other B for example.

[Fenrir_valindri]

If you are familiar with the concept of normal "Ki" it isn't too difficult to understand.

Everyone has their own Ki and it strengthens them naturally; if we actively employ our Ki then our movements (attacks) become more powerful.

I would guess that Yoki works on a similar principle considering it is literally Monstrous (Yo-ma) Energy (Ki)

My guess is someone with a naturally high power in Yoki will be superior to someone who has the same rank in another physical stat; just because the internal "Ki" is so much more; even if it isn't actively being employed.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Well some interesting posts there graywolf, friedman, and a very difficult one to answer from ichigobankai...

I'm sure there is a v.thorough discussion around here somewhere that has this discussed in detail, maybe somwhere near the beginning of this thread, but to put it simply Yoki is monstrous aura or something similar, it's like a level of energy available to a claymore as a result of being a hybrid with yoma flesh...

Now as to 'how' a claymore uses that yoki depends firstly on if they are 'offensive' or 'defensive' and secondly on what techniques they employ and how they fight.

The stats mentioned on the first page of this thread are the semi-unofficial stats from the databooks which are portrayed from the point of view of reports held by the organisation on their own warriors. So at best it's a rough estimation of their abilities for the purpose of ranking.

2 claymores can have the same rankings but different levels of yoki in reality, and there are certainly discrepencies between what is known by us and by what is known by the org...

Yoki is used by all claymores as they fight and can be viewed as a measure of 'stamina' as well as 'power' for the purposes of fighting as claymores. Even if the claymore is unaware of it they use yoki whilst fighting as Irene stated. Furthermore the claymore can purposely use Yoki to increase their abilities, an act which causes depletion of their yoki in accordance with it's usage.

I should add an important addendum to this and that is that willpower is an important aspect of yoki control, as Elena and Priscilla and others have shown the availability of yoki is nothing without the willpower to control it.

So the straight answer is the claymore with the larger yoki all else being equal would win, and as is also likely to hold a higher ranking position within the org as a result. On the basis of having more power and stamina with regards to yoki use.

A claymore can fight also with their yoki suppressed, but that's to say the 'power' aspect is suppressed not the 'stamina' aspect. It is a concealment of their aura, so that they can't be perceived by other yoki users, who have that ability. Which according to theory is every other claymore.

[woltor]

1. I'm wondering whether Clare's flash sword improwed as well in those seven years on the north or it's useless now. What do you think?

2. If when they awake their yoma power they increase their new moves based on non-yoki power? ( I mean increase power,speed, etc.)

3. When Clare become this "thing" in battle of pieta when she defeated rigardo, she can safely awake to this moment now?

[Fenrir_valindri]

1. I'm wondering whether Clare's flash sword improwed as well in those seven years on the north or it's useless now. What do you think?

I think the current Windcutter is a combination of what Clare learned from Flora's Windcutter, and Irene's Flash-sword.

If Clare used Yoki with it; it would probably be a more complete version of the Flash-sword (since Clare's was inferior to Irene's)

2. If when they awake their yoma power they increase their new moves based on non-yoki power? ( I mean increase power,speed, etc.)

I believe so, it appears the Ghosts have trained their bodies to allow them to do these techniques without Yoki; which would also make them much more powerful when infused with Yoki.

3. When Clare become this "thing" in battle of pieta when she defeated rigardo, she can safely awake to this moment now?

I would say no; as it was something she did out of desperation, and it almost made her awaken. If she could just do it as she wished; it would make Alicia/Beth look rather silly in comparison. Going over your limit is supposed to be dangerous, not just something they can use for conveniance.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Two friends of mine believe that if Claymore was more realistic that humans would have never accepted the existance of Yoma as superior predators.

Excuse me if a talk a bit about human nature;

My two friends claim that human are an extremely violent and adaptive species, if we encountered a species that was higher up on the food chain then us we would create the tools needed to kill it or we would throw ourselves at them until they died, or we did.

What does everyone think here think of that theory?

[williamaugustus]

well that is our nature. but the MiBs would not stand for it. they probably fould some way of making it so that humans require the Claymores. for example they would pick an island where there are few minerals or iron ore or other such things that could be used to make major weapons. they would also make it seem as if there was no chance of humans ever defeating youma. that way human nature would never come into play.

[Vinak]

Two friends of mine believe that if Claymore was more realistic that humans would have never accepted the existance of Yoma as superior predators.

Excuse me if a talk a bit about human nature;

My two friends claim that human are an extremely violent and adaptive species, if we encountered a species that was higher up on the food chain then us we would create the tools needed to kill it or we would throw ourselves at them until they died, or we did.

What does everyone think here think of that theory?


The Human evolutionary advantage is our brains. We are able to build tools and to adapt to our environment better than any other organism that we know of.

We are programmed for self preservation. this drives us to reproduce with one another and to protect one another. However, we are very territorial as well. If a new group of people posses a threat to the established order, we will become very violent. This doesn't make us a violent species though, most of us prefer peace and harmony over violence.

Because of our self preservation programming, we would either fight or run away from any threat posed to us. in the instance that youma suddenly evolved we would first try to fight it and when we find out that we are unable to do so we will attempt to flee. we would not, however throw ourselves at the enemy until we destroy ourselves. (unless you are the Soviet Union during WWII)

[Tempest35]

Two friends of mine believe that if Claymore was more realistic that humans would have never accepted the existance of Yoma as superior predators.

Excuse me if a talk a bit about human nature;

My two friends claim that human are an extremely violent and adaptive species, if we encountered a species that was higher up on the food chain then us we would create the tools needed to kill it or we would throw ourselves at them until they died, or we did.

What does everyone think here think of that theory?

If I didn't have work at 5 am, I'd be all over this...:heh: Give me 15 hours and I'll be RIGHT back. lol

[Fenrir_valindri]

While I partially agree, let me argue on my friends behalf. (As I know how they think)

-------------

In human history there are several instances were humans would fight till the point of being wiped out, no matter how overwhelming their opponent was.

The flight instinct only takes precedence until we are backed into a corner, and then fight kicks back in since flight is no longer possible, a cornered mouse will still fight back after all, even if the opponent is a cat.

In the situation that the humans are stuck in on the Isolated continent; they would quickly gather they could not escape the Yoma, so they would begin hunting them, fighting back in effect.

Now Yoma were supposed to be solitary creatures before Riful's "trained" Yoma. A single Yoma would have a serious problem fighting a group of well armed and armored human opponents.

We have Rabona as one instance; they appear to have very minor Yoma problems compared to the rest of the Continent, despite it being the largest gathering of humans in the area we have seen.

So why have no other groups of resistance formed themselves other then Rabona? If the Organization wiped out other such towns, why would they not wipe out Rabona as well?

If the humans found they could not defeat the Yoma, or even find them due to their shape-shifting abilities, human towns would become isolated havens, they would build walls and become self contained, attacking any strangers and allowing no guests due to the paranoia of a Yoma infiltrating the community.

If a Yoma were to infiltrate a community it would turn into a witch hunt, and humans would quickly self destruct in an effort to destroy the Yoma among them.

A group very much like the Inquisition would quickly form and begin purging suspected Yoma without mercy.

-----

Those are just some main points they brought up, although they probably worded a lot better then I did.

[Tempest35]

While I partially agree, let me argue on my friends behalf. (As I know how they think)

-------------

In human history there are several instances were humans would fight till the point of being wiped out, no matter how overwhelming their opponent was.

The flight instinct only takes precedence until we are backed into a corner, and then fight kicks back in since flight is no longer possible, a cornered mouse will still fight back after all, even if the opponent is a cat.

In the situation that the humans are stuck in on the Isolated continent; they would quickly gather they could not escape the Yoma, so they would begin hunting them, fighting back in effect.

Now Yoma were supposed to be solitary creatures before Riful's "trained" Yoma. A single Yoma would have a serious problem fighting a group of well armed and armored human opponents.

We have Rabona as one instance; they appear to have very minor Yoma problems compared to the rest of the Continent, despite it being the largest gathering of humans in the area we have seen.

So why have no other groups of resistance formed themselves other then Rabona? If the Organization wiped out other such towns, why would they not wipe out Rabona as well?

If the humans found they could not defeat the Yoma, or even find them due to their shape-shifting abilities, human towns would become isolated havens, they would build walls and become self contained, attacking any strangers and allowing no guests due to the paranoia of a Yoma infiltrating the community.

If a Yoma were to infiltrate a community it would turn into a witch hunt, and humans would quickly self destruct in an effort to destroy the Yoma among them.

A group very much like the Inquisition would quickly form and begin purging suspected Yoma without mercy.

-----

Those are just some main points they brought up, although they probably worded a lot better then I did.


I must say that with what you said, you lend a lot of credibility to Miria''s hypothesis that the youma are a creation of the ORG for the purpose of being a variable in their grand experiment.

As one can easily deduce, the reason why the people on this continent didn't close themselves up within their villages and such was because soon after the youma showed up, so did the ORG, along with their Claymores and the conditions under which they will send these warriors out to kill the youma. No doubt, since the youma are produced by the ORG, any independent faction that tried to raise up armed resistance on their own were quickly destroyed to keep the market of youma extermination firmly in the ORGs hands.

And like so many, if there is a passive way to avoid a conflict, even if it means bowing their heads and paying like submissive lambs, people will do it despite trying to do it for themselves. The ones who would have tried to fight against the youma with their own power (and many, if not all did fail eventually), those people were the 'nails' that Claymore society, like any other society, would have 'beaten down' because they were too different.

'Only a monster can defeat a monster,' would have been something that the ORG officials would have no doubt repeated over the years until the populace believed it to be so. This would explain why the townsfolk always shun a Claymore warrior, despite being sent out to deal with a problem they themselves cannot solve. While the phrase is partially true in some respects, it is not the total measuring stick.

A kind and loving father and husband, one who brings roses home to his wife even if he's had a bad day and tuck his kids in every night will turn into a complete demon should his family be threatened. For someone to mess with that sort of family life would have to be a 'monster' on some level and likewise, to deal with that 'monster', the protector will and must take on a seemingly 'monsterous' dispostion in order to deal with and protect against it. In nearly all cases, regardless if this senario is played out in real life or on film and TV, we still cheer for that 'man-turned-monster', even if he walks through scores of enemies that he's killed in order to protect that which he holds dear. I'm getting off track....:heh:

While we do have an advantage over many things because of our brains - there's another distinct advantage we have - our willpower/belief. Of course, this can be both an advantage and disadvantage. In Claymore, the belief system is that only the Claymores (who are part monster themselves) can deal with youma. Only they can sense it while it is hiding in your very homes, eating your food, tucking your kids in at night. To imagine something so horrific invading a family unit, only to destroy it from within using mimicry and deception, is something that would frighten everyone, regardless of time and place and society. Youma have so cowed the populace of the land that they believe themselves to be powerless before them - thus, they are beaten before the conflict even begins. While youma do have distinct advantages that place them above nearly every sort of human (except GarRaki-types), these things CAN be overcome as proven by Raki and Priscilla. If people would get over their fear of 'only a monster can beat a monster' as Raki did, well, we can see many possibilities for a devastating alliance against Youma and Awakened Ones and perhaps even the Descendants of the Dragons.

I believe that Claymore has depicted the OVERALL human reaction to an enemy that has these types of abilities coupled with a hunger for human innards. Once in a while, there must have been more than a few men and women in the Claymore world who, just like your friends have said Fenrir, did not believe that youma were the 'end all, be all', and tried to surpass them with their own strength, only to succumb to not only pressure from without (youma, ORG), but within as well (friends, family, neighbors). Raki was lucky, he was taken out of that environment and given a chance. Raki is the proof of what your friends spoke of and even more since he tries to befriend the 'half-monsters' as well as he can, even befriending actual monsters. :heh: And while he may not be aware of the implications of his relations with Clare and his relations with Priscilla, the fact that he does have them is so completely out of the 'norm' that even other Claymores make fun of him, not to mention 'normal' humans have begun to shun him as well for his 'Claymore-like' strength and unusual perceptions on the current 'reality'.

[chibamonster]

I think the real issue in the claymore world is that youma attacks are not that big of a deal for the average joe. Rabona never had a youma issue before they had to call Clare for her sneaking mission. It was 7 years until they had another incident. Raki had never even heard of Claymores. So while Claymore's themselves live a life full of fighting youmas and AB's, that is not what a human experiences. Most of them never run into a monster. Bandits would be as much or more danger to a town than anything. So as an audience, following the youki sensing Claymores who track down and kill youma and AB's, we see more than enough monsters. That is pretty much the whole series. But for a normal human, their life hardly ever be effected by the monsters. Slave traders would probably be more worrisome for a young man like Raki anyway as he was captured and imprisioned. It is like my friend's dad who is a specialist for surgery planning and he sees rare and unusual things I have never even heard of every day. The issues he works with are still incredibly rare. He is just a specialist whose job is dealing with those cases. It is like watching HOUSE MD and coming away with the conclusion that the fictional world of HOUSE involves a plague of diseases instead of thinking he is just a specialist who deals with extremely rare cases.

As Renee said, humans killing a youma is not that big a deal, humans finding youma is the real problem. Raki didn't know his own brother was a youma. That means in the investigation into Raki's murdered parents they never found a body for Zaki (possibly the youma took his body, the phrasing of the japanese is a little vague) so a youma could become anyone at any time and no one would know until it was too late. Youma can be the town chief, who is hiring the claymore, or leading the people to fight the youma, or telling Raki what Claymores are. Youma can even live peacefully in a town, as seen with Teresa's first arc. They just feed elsewhere. Fenrir, I think your friend's theory only really makes sense if the world is as populated with youma as it seems from a claymore's point of view.

I was thinking about going on about what humans do in crisis, but as youma are not that big of a deal in normal life I think I'll just stop for the time being.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Hehe, both of you guys came up with some pretty good points, Bravo :heh:

I'll bring it up to my friends next time we meet and see what they think of it. :cool:

[Sleepy Speculator]

You've gotta add that having control and the capability to produce infiltration yoma, that could mimic people and putting them in a chain of command, pretty much effectively destroys the morale of any organised resistance that wasn't relying on the claymores. I mean say you get a dodgy order, do you obey, do you not obey... when time is of the essence and discipline needs to be enforced so a group of armed guys can do their job, they rely on their officers and commanders, if one of them gets eaten and no one notices, seemingly innocent orders could leave massive holes in defensive formations, search patterns, and allow the steady depletion of resources (lives, and those capable of bearing arms) and morale (those willing to follow orders). It would be a situation pretty much like the film 'the thing' where paranoia would escalate exponentionally.

[Fenrir_valindri]

That is exactly the point, if humans couldn't resist effectively, they would lash out until they were wiped out by the Yoma. The paranoia stage would cause them to fight amongst themselves to get rid of the Yoma; which would quickly lead to a very self destructive attitude due to fear and doubt.

[chibamonster]

I think Yagi investigated that same fear in the recent chapters where Raki returns, with Galm stealing a wagon and running away from Doga village. Why fight amongst yourselves when you can just run away? Then you don't even have to pay the Claymores! I think there are so many different reactions humans could have to a youma threat that it is impossible to say they would just wipe themselves out. Rabona's guard pulled together in the face of danger. Bandits stayed away from youma. Priscilla killed a youma as a child. Raki tried to kill the youma that ate his family. The youma that took Clare didn't even eat her, they kept her as a pet. Just like battles show who Claymores really are in this series, youma bring out who humans really are. In Doga, even after Raki killed the youma, they still were suspicious of who he was. The fear of youma is most prevalently seen placed on Claymores who most humans avoid at all costs. Monsters are monsters.

The thing about youma wiping people out is that I really don't think Youma have that much influence in peoples normal lives, and there are not that many of them. Youma are not bottomless pits for feeding. They seem like snakes; feed once in a while and then go into hiding. Even Agatha was eating enough to seem like another youma. Well, until she decided to show her true form and take a bath.

I wasn't going to analyze the human response aspect because I really do think that in the world of Claymore Youma/AB's are incredibly rare, but I can put that on the back burner for a minute here. If we want to look at what humans do in the face of a danger like youma think of Europe during the Black Plague. They don't know how many people died, but they estimate 30-60% of the population was wiped out. It looked like the end of the world as people filled ditches with the dead, and then dug more as the buried their family members and friends. They did not know what caused the disease. They did not know how to stop the disease. And barring people and living in isolation did not stop the rats and fleas from infecting them. The government could do nothing to stop the plague because they did not know anything about what caused it. Some people blamed Lepers, Jews, Foreigners, Gypsies, people with acne, Beggars, Pilgrims, even female Muslims in Cairo, and attacked and killed them in order to stop the disease. But their radical actions did no good because they were not attacking the actual cause of the disease. And despite all that rage and all the horrible things that people tried to do because of their fear and hatred society was not wiped out even if it was horribly wounded and grim.

Youma would be the same in an epedemic situation. We could also look at the social situation in countries can be that are decimated by war. Or we could look at a history of people who do not have the power to resist their enemies and they just give up. Or countries oppressed by an overwhelming dictator. There are so many things that can happen when humans are in crisis I think it is impossible to classify what humans would universally do in any situation of fear and death. We can certainly say what WE would do. Fenrir, I think your friends conclusion shows more about them than it does about the world of Claymore ;)

Fortunately the epidemic situation is not the case for the world of Claymore. Youma attacks are very rare Doga had 2 Youma in 7 years. Rabona had 1 youma and 1 AB (a very rare case) in 7 years+ We just see rare things in the claymore world all the time; like a youma infested village, or an army of AB's in the north. We see a world hidden to almost all of the human inhabitants of the world of Claymore. I think youma would be on a villager's to fear list along with Slave Traders and Bandits. They would probably also chalk up disease, famon, plague, etc as more relevant things to worry about, especially in the small town communities that exist in this world. Fortunately, unlike slave traders and bandits there is a medication called Claymores that will treat the youma problem... if the price is right... I think it would be more likely that people would steal the money for getting a claymore to come than they would be to annihilate themselves by their fear and persecutions. Stealing money would absolutely make sense no matter how few youma attacks there really were.

[Tempest35]

That's true Chiba...but something else bugs me and this is probably the rarest case in Claymore. Remember during the Teresa arc when Noel, Sophia, and Irene gathered at the village that had been somehow infested with youma? For something like that to have happened would be mind-blowing. Of course, like I said, this is the rarest case since we haven't heard of anything like this occuring since then. It was probably due to the town not paying the ORG and well, you heard what Teresa warned the others - 'youma have good ears when a town does not pay the Org'.

And also, the Org must surely recieve a LOT of money - either by the price they charge or by how many contracts they pull - maybe both. Still, in such a closed environment, how do they keep the people supplied with money? Sure there are mints and the like but if thousands are disappearing into an endless abyss like the ORG, how does the ORG make sure that the people don't run out of currency to pay them? In such a closed environment, I'm sure that it would be a problem.

[chibamonster]

I am impressed the villagers even have a unified monetary system. For a country that seems to be predominantly small isolated villages they have an actual currency that even Raki, who is from a dead mining town, even knows its value. I don't know how the organization gets the money back to the people. It may not :D. It could be the equivalent of a heavy tax placed on random villages. Maybe the organization wants to keep the people poor and struggling so they can continue their experiments unrestrained. I think the organization has much grander plans than anything we have been told so far.

And I also think that the village Irene, Noel, Sophia and Priscilla exterminated was once a town that did not pay. As a really bizarre theory, I am guessing that the youma there were once the inhabitants of the town. But it's just a guess.

[Sleepy Speculator]

It may just seem like i like to argue, but the question seemed to be 'if' humans can kill yoma why is it that only the 'org' is left as any form of meaninful resistance. The key point being humans can't tell a yoma from another human, but claymores can. I'd hypothesise that if a town did think it could solve it's own yoma problem, that the org would make sure it had a big one, cos simply rooting out one or two yoma would be possible for the vigilant guards, the problem exists not only because the yoma could be anyone, but also because there could be more than one yoma. So the org according to Miria would literally send the yoma there, to eradicate the town, and the independent resistance, creatinga ruin and a bunch of refugees who spread the word about what happens to towns that don't pay.

[Awakened]

It may just seem like i like to argue, but the question seemed to be 'if' humans can kill yoma why is it that only the 'org' is left as any form of meaninful resistance. The key point being humans can't tell a yoma from another human, but claymores can. I'd hypothesise that if a town did think it could solve it's own yoma problem, that the org would make sure it had a big one, cos simply rooting out one or two yoma would be possible for the vigilant guards, the problem exists not only because the yoma could be anyone, but also because there could be more than one yoma. So the org according to Miria would literally send the yoma there, to eradicate the town, and the independent resistance, creatinga ruin and a bunch of refugees who spread the word about what happens to towns that don't pay.

Agree, humans only have a chance if the Org was not around to coordinate a yoma response to any resistance.

It’s very difficult for the humans to kill one yoma, they have to get lucky. It becomes almost impossible if there is a coordinated attack on the humans that try to protect themselves. It’s much easier to just pay the Org.


For humans to identify the yomas they would have to change their lifestyles.

1)Everyone would have to live in one big house, with little privacy.

2)It will be everyone’s responsibility to spy on each other, keeping track of everyone’s movement. If someone gets eaten, then the whereabout of all the villagers will help identify the possible culprit. It’s not fool-proof, but it will make it harder for a yoma to kill someone, and when they do they would have to be very careful. No one is perfect, so they is a chance sonner or later the yoma will leave a trail.

3) The body-system, eveyone need to travel in groups of 10 or more. (10 just a random number, a group large enought to keep one yoma ta bay)

4) They would need a science lab, the lab can be infiltrated, so they would need a way to keep the info from dissapearing. Maby have 20 labs doing the same thing.

[chibamonster]

Heh, what if the youma is disguising itself as a corpse like it did in Rabona? How do you track it down then? The Zaki youma planned to move on after he ate Raki. It seems to me like Youma intentionally terrify towns for some reason. For instance, the Zaki youma hid or took over Zaki's body so no one even knew he was gone. He also stole his memories so for all intents and purposes the youma was Zaki. So youma really could become anyone, including the person leading the attack. Also if people were that vigilant, why not just feed in another town? Plenty of places to go, things to see, people to eat...

I still think that the Youma are really not that big of a deal for most people, and when they are a big deal humans have so little information on how to locate or combat them that calling Claymores is really the only thing they can do. Especially because that is the way the organization wants it. So even if someone did put something together to find and kill youma, the organization would probably do something about it.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

the thing is that humans think they already have a solution

if you have an insect infestation at home, you call the exterminators and pay them, you dont build a lab and research all chemicals from the start if you already have an easier way to deal with the problem

[Sleepy Speculator]

All true but, if push comes to shove and you ain't got cash but plenty of sharp farm implements you'd be tempted to do it yourself if it means your guts don't get eaten, and if you manage to get one you'd think you'd be safe to live another 7-8 years except that ain't the way the org likes things... And that's how the org would've kept resistance to a zero.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

thats why some people run away, or maybe why in Rabona they do things on their own

but people without resources are not likely to create a new org on their own with labs, research, etc, is an objective out of their reach, easier would be to collect enough money and pay, or use religion to ask god to solve their problems for them

[chibamonster]

I think one of the biggest problems would not be people not paying, but stealing the money to pay. Forcing people to pay in a town and not letting them leave is nasty like in Doga, but wouldn't it be easier to just steal money from merchants, travelers, neighboring towns etc. I mean can you imagine how much a claymore gravestone with their armor would be worth? It seems to me that some places really struggle to pay, like small villages, where Rabona was able to make special requests for a stealth mission at probably greater fees and it was not an issue for them. We do not know how high the fee is, but it seems to be a lot for a small village, though they can manage it. Sometimes they can even manage to pay for several youma if they are properly motivated, by someone like Teresa.

[yezhanquan]

Putting the payment issue aside, I find some interesting parallels between Claymore and D.Gray-man.

The inability to distinguish between friend and foe is present in DGM. While Akuma are merely hard to detect, those who call themselves the Clan of Noah are in the shadows all the time. If they so wish, they can (and do) move among people and no one knows who they really are. The Noahs may be few in numbers, but their destructive powers (and toughness; only one has been killed off, and it took the guidebook to reveal it) is something only the top Exorcists can handle.

Unlike the Claymores (who can detect their targets), among the Exorcists, only one kid can detect Akuma: the lead character of Allen Walker. Yet, as Lavi mentions, the best the other Exorcists can do is to trust no one deeply, and be prepared to fight anytime, anywhere. While this may seem bleak, Lavi's smiles and cheers never seem to fade, although this was after his own emotionless phase. Also, the sour Kanda Yu is in many ways like Clare. But, despite his manners, his abilities ensures that he survives. (Of course, Allen and the Ark was another matter, but still, Kanda was the one who killed off his Noah.)

The issue of becoming a monster is also real to the Exorcists. Should they choose to betray their Innocence, they will become the Fallen Ones. So far, only one has been seen in this state, barring the experiments carried out by the Order to "create" Exorcists.

Ever since Yagi revealed that there is another continent, I've been very interested to know how matters are like on the other side. Still, why hasn't he said much about it? Instead, he gave us a map of the current continent, which fills some gaps, but IMO, the quality of information on "the other side" will be way better.

[graywolf202]

Hmmm. Just a thought. If you train for seven years with someone your level, and there's pretty good motivation and healthy competition, you're bound to get stronger. It's a lotter better than hacking weaklings (normal Yoma) for years.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Uma just took a level in badass is all. :) chiba will know what i mean.

[chibamonster]

Yes, chiba knows what you mean :D. While she didn't get a new hairstyle, the cloaked (=full length jacket?) fighting and the ripley muscles did it for me ~

[irvinethearcher]

We don't know for sure what abilities/power_boosts clare gained after her partial awakening against rigardo. But the effect must be greater than to simply half awakening. Perhaps you only get more yoki from it and perhaps sometimes some new abilities like helen and deneve instead of better base skills. Miria said that the half awakening changes the quality of the yoki that's the only confirmed source we have so far. And we have something else: Clare was faster and stronger after her initial awakening at rabona and got her sensing abilities drastically enhanced. So your base skills seems to augment too and it is not only the quality of yoki which increases.
But simple training seems to play a role too. The org probably trained her soldiers only so far that they could win against normal yomas and AB's in a group. The only known individuals which were
trained to elite souldiers are the twins.
So if clare solely trained her windcutter what was stated to be extremly hard without yoki release, it seems logically that cynthia who was #14 and trained her sensing, healing and run a "claymore - marathon" every day is now even to clare at sensing and superior to clare at running. Perhaps Cynthia did long jogs with miria all the time Yuma is now a single digit and was #40 before so training finaly seems to be the real thing.
__________________

[chibamonster]

Hmm. I am just going to say that Clare got no special abilities after fighting Rigardo, except maybe the ability to do it again and go further in the future. I do not think the effects are greater than just a half awakening. If they were Jean would have been considerably more powerful as she completely awakened. No partial limb bits there. Jean was strong, as she was the only claymore to actually hold off Rigardo for any number of attacks of all the captains before Miria, but we didn't see her pwning n00bs left and right with some incredible power beyond what everyone thought she had. Jean even struggles as a leader and against her AB in the first wave of the 3 scouts in Pieta. So unless Jean got some half-awakening + body awakening boost then I am going to say Clare did not get one either. Just my opinion though. It certainly could fit into the Claymore world that Clare did get a boost and JEan didn't because Clare is an experiment. But we will have to wait and see.

[Tempest35]

It's amusing that the person with the highest offensive attack rating (Jean) was such a defensive-minded person. Jean's critical flaw in the North was that she was too worried about keeping everyone alive in her group rather than 'ignoring' them for the few precious moments needed to do the 21 rotations and attack the AB. Why didn't she? Because she knew that most of her team couldn't withstand the ABs attacks long enough for her to do it anyway. Only after Veronica's team came to assist (along with Cynthia and Helen) did she have enough high level fighters where she didn't have to worry, even if they got hit. It's not really that she's a bad leader, she just get's put into the worst possible situations for her mentality. She can figure out what's going on and what needs to be done - figuring out HOW to do it, however, is not one of her strong suits. :heh:

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

never thought much about this, but, I think the strongest attack now is Helen's, she can do god knows how many rotations and its also a ranged attack

[irvinethearcher]

I'm not so sure if it is ranged. Look back at the episode they fought agtha. Helen did the same as jean did.
The problem with jean is, that we simply don't know how strong jean was before the awakening.
So we can not say that she did not got a huge power boost form it.
We know from miata that clare closed the gap between her and miria and we know from uma that she couldn't close the gap between her and her comrades who trained the same amount of years.
So we know that this awakening against rigardo must have strengthened clare further because if not she shouldn't be able to close the gap to miria. She got no special abilities but probably her basic stats should be improved and her yoki somehow too.
IMO a logicall explaination for this seems to be that clare simply focused all her efforts in perfecting the windcutter instead of training her sensing abilities and her base skills like the others did.
There is something else i thought about:
Perhaps the more often you use the half - awakenings or partial awaknenings the lesser the power boosts are and you have to set the stimulus(the awakening) higher
and higher to achieve some power boost at all. Like training in sports.

[chibamonster]

If Clare gets a huge power boost from awakening it is from her being part Teresa, not because Jean was weak before she fully awakend. I am fine with saying Clare is different from everyone else and that her partial awakenings awaken a part of Teresa in her. I even like that theory, but there is not much to support it beyond the fact that I like it. To assume that Jean was incredibly weak misses quite a few points; like jean noting how difficult it was to do the drill sword after her full awakening. It's not something she can do often, and it drains her, and even with a partial awakening she still struggled.

What gap are you talking about between Miria and Clare? Clare is a much more formidable fighter, especially with Irene's arm. Mostly because Clare does not freak out and panic when things go bad, even if Miria should be a better fighter. Miata smelling Teresa & Irene's flesh would be enough for me to think Clare was strong. Don't get me wrong. I think Clare will be one of the strongest characters in the whole claymore world when she masters her fully awakened form, just like I think Naruto will eventually match the hokages and even the 4th some day. I just think Claymore will do it in a very interesting and unique way over a long period of time.

[irvinethearcher]

If Clare gets a huge power boost from awakening it is from her being part Teresa, not because Jean was weak before she fully awakend. I am fine with saying Clare is different from everyone else and that her partial awakenings awaken a part of Teresa in her.


It would make sense that clare benefits more than the others from the half/partial awakenings. Miria said that she had the impression the strongest stood before her the first time she met clare that means she has probably lot of potential.



I even like that theory, but there is not much to support it beyond the fact that I like it. To assume that Jean was incredibly weak misses quite a few points; like jean noting how difficult it was to do the drill sword after her full awakening. It's not something she can do often, and it drains her, and even with a partial awakening she still struggled.
She did it two times, perhaps that was one more time than she could do it before the awakening.


What gap are you talking about between Miria and Clare? Clare is a much more formidable fighter, especially with Irene's arm. Mostly because Clare does not freak out and panic when things go bad, even if Miria should be a better fighter. Miata smelling Teresa & Irene's flesh would be enough for me to think Clare was strong. Don't get me wrong. I think Clare will be one of the strongest characters in the whole claymore world when she masters her fully awakened form, just like I think Naruto will eventually match the hokages and even the 4th some day. I just think Claymore will do it in a very interesting and unique way over a long period of time.

Hm... before the battle against rigardo miria was that strong that she could win against the ab with only 3 other claymores but the other groups fought in groups of 2 x 4 claymores. After that, deneve said that miria was gone through unimaginable situations and rigardo fought miria and first ignored clare. IMO before the partial awakening miria was superior to clare as long as clare did not use partial awakening. But now the two are probably even in fighting power without partial awakening or yoki release, miata stated that and her sparring in the north, so i assume that clare must have become better after the 7 years and closed the gap to miria, who is an half - awakened #6.

[Tsuyoshi]

Clare had also gone through numerous difficult situations as well before Pieta. Running into an abyssal one and her second in command, nearly facing off with the org's number 3, and gaining the unconditional trust of another single digit in the process isn't something all Claymore's go through every day.

But as things are now, Clare and Miria are at least perfectly even. Miria did use her new technique against Clare, and she was able to match her blow for blow. The real question comes when there will be a time when they really have to release their Youki. Clare and Miria are at least on the same level as a formidable number 2 right now without using their Youki. I really like Chiba's theory of Teresa's power awakening in Clare as she uses Youki. It makes sense to me.

[Droplet]

Using the following template, how would you guys estimate the Ghosts' current stats?

Yoki:
Agility:
Strength:
Mental:
Sense:
Leadership:

[Sleepy Speculator]

I'll have a random arse grab style guess
Clare

Yoki: S+ (i think it's off the scale no-one knows though)
Agility: A+ (she is scarey fast)
Strength: B
Mental: A (strongest mental control due to ability to pull back from awakening, but also has the tendency to lose control)
Sense: A+ (the plus is because she uses it in combat)
Leadership: B

Miria

Yoki: S (based on Miata's comment)
Agility: A++ (she is the fastest)
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: B
Leadership: A+

Cynthia

Yoki: A+
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: B
Sense: A+ (yoki manipulator at least for healing)
Leadership: B

Helen

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: B (some loss of control due to being a hot head, notice who got drunk?)
Sense: B
Leadership: B

Deneve

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: A+
Mental: B+
Sense: C
Leadership: C

Tabitha:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: B
Mental: C+
Sense: A+
Leadership: D

Uma

Yoki: B
Agility: B+
Strength: B+
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: E (needs more self confidence)

[Bikerider]

Until I see more of Yuma in action, I'd say she is, in Ch 83, a single digit: some where between 3 and 9. The others being much stronger than her could all be ranked higher than number 3. I doubt any of them are of the power levels of the Twins or Teresa. Not at this point in the story.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

what makes you think that Clare jumped from an E leadership to B? she seem to be the same lone wolf as always, the only time I recall her doing something as a leader was when she asked Jean to attack Dauf

[Ryuken]

Those stats are excellent @Sleepy, although I think that Tabiy's sensing should be a little more.

[Valerian Mengsk]

For comparison between Sleepy's current assessment and the values from way back at the beginning of the thread:


After aquiring the last source book, I decided to complise the stats into 1 large list for everyone to see and compare themselves.

I copied this post from my own post on Naruto Forums:

"S" is a special level of ability. A "+" indicts a level of profeciency above the average.

Ability declaration: Assessment E>A for each item.

S signifies a capacity on a different level. + indicates that the effective utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value.

------------------------

Teresa's generation;

Teresa of the Faint Smile: No.1 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: S
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type, Pre-Emptive Perception, All-Rounder.

Technique: Detailed Aura Detection

--------------

Priscilla: No.2 (165 CM Tall)

Yoki: A+
Agility: A+
Strength: B+
Mental: D
Sense: A+
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type, Yoki-Supression, Rapid Growth.

Technique: Aura Supression

--------------

"Flash-Sword" Irene: No.3 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: A+
Sense: B
Leadership: A

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: Flash-Sword

---------------

Sophia: No.4 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: C
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type

--------------

Noel: No.5 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: A+
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

-------------

Clare's Generation;

Alicia and Beth: No.1 and No.2 (180 CM tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A+
Strength: A+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: E

Class: Unique

-------------

Galatea: No.3 (185 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: A
Sensing: A+
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive Type

Technique: Yoki Manipulation


-------------

"Rippling" Ophelia No.4 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: C
Sensing: B+
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: "Rippling" Sword

--------------

Rafaela: No.5 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: A
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: Aura Supression

---------------

"Phantom" Miria No.6

Yoki: B+
Agility: A+
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sensing: C
Leadership: A+

Class: Offensive Type

---------------

Flora: No.8 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: A
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sense: C
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: Windcutter

-------------

Jean: No.9 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: C
Strength: B+
Mental: A+
Sense: C
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

-------------

Undine: No.11 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C
Agility: C
Strength: A
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: C+

Class: Offensive Type

-------------

Deneve: No.15 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B+
Agility: B
Strength: C
Mental: C+
Sensing: C
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive Type

--------------

Helen: No.22 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C+
Agility: C
Strength: B
Mental: C
Sensing: C
Leadership: D

Class: Offensive Type

--------------

Clare: No.47 (170 CM Tall)

Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: E

Class: Offensive Type, Pre-Emptive Perception

Technique: Flash-Sword


--------------

Elena: No.? (Clare's dead friend from Volume 1)

Yoki: D
Agility: D
Strength: D
Mental: E
Sense: D
Leadership: C


---------------


Awakened Beings: Awakened Beings are rated on a completely different scale, "Intelligence" is the most common translation of that last stat, so I'll go with it.


Priscilla: Former No.2

Yoki: EX
Agility: SSS+
Strength: SSS
Hardness: S+
Intelligence: SS


--------------

Ophelia: No. 4 (Eliminated)

Yoki: SS
Agility: SSS
Strength: SS
Hardness: S
Intelligence: SS


----------------

Duph: Former No.3

Yoki: SSS+
Agility: S
Strength: SSS+
Hardness: SSS
Intelligence: C


------------------

Hilda: Former No.6 (Eliminated)

Yoki: SSS+
Agility: SS+
Strength: SS
Hardness: S
Intelligence: SS


------------------

Female AB: Ophelia's Short-Lived playmate (Eliminated)

Yoki: SS+
Agility: SS
Strength: SS
Hardness: S
Intelligence: SS


-------------------

Male AB: First one to Appear in the manga (Eliminated)

Yoki: SS
Agility: SS
Strength: S
Hardness: S+
Intelligence: SS


-------------------

Katea: (Eliminated)

Yoki: A
Agility: S
Strength: A
Hardness: A
Intelligence: S


------------------------------

and there you have it, for all to see. :twitch:

Edit: some clarification for what A-D and + and S mean.

[Double_friedman]

I'll change the stats I think are wrong.

I'll have a random arse grab style guess
Clare

Yoki: A+ The plus is because she can use much yoki sometimes
Agility: A SHE'S NOT AS FAST AS MIRIA.
Strength: B
Mental: B SHE WASN'T ABLE TO COME BACK, JEAN, RAKI AND GALATEA HELPED HER
Sense: A+I'm not pretty sure she improved her sensing skills over these 7 years, after all, they didn't use yoki.
Leadership: C

Miria

Yoki: A I think she gain power, but let's not exaggerate
Agility: S I'd say S only because she's so fast that she leaves traces of her
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: B
Leadership: A+

Cynthia

Yoki: A+ Why do you say she has A+ in yoki when she's not a half-awakened, you mean she has the same amount of yoki than Priscilla
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: B
Sense: A+ (yoki manipulator at least for healing)
Leadership: B

And I really don't care about the others.

Definitely I think that Claire is the only one who could face noob-Priscilla. Maybe Miria, but she's not that powerful. People are overestimating their powers, they all improve their skills, but we really don't know how their youkis changed.
Following the sequence of events, Claire should be the only one that experimented a huge change in her yoki because she awakened her limbs.
Miria, Deneve and Helen are half-awakened, so I assume their yokis changed too over these seven years, but not in the way claire's yoki changed.
The others only suppressed their youkis, I don't see why their youkis would grow exponentially doing that.

[Vinak]

you kinda forgot the tiny fact that Clare was able to move so fast nobody could see her.

(in real life that means you are exceeding the speed of light) :p

And Clare is Clearly the best at Youki sensing....she can predict your movements....

I believe I have a chart i made a while back about power levels let me see if i can find it.
found it but think its kinda stupid now :p

[Double_friedman]

you kinda forgot the tiny fact that Clare was able to move so fast nobody could see her.

(in real life that means you are exceeding the speed of light) :p

And Clare is Clearly the best at Youki sensing....she can predict your movements....

I believe I have a chart i made a while back about power levels let me see if i can find it.
found it but think its kinda stupid now :p

She can move her arms very fast, but not her legs. Obviously I'm talking when she's in claymore form and not in "ABeing form".

[Vinak]

but Clare is so boring in her claymore form :(

she should walk on her hands or something.

[Droplet]

Thanks for the follow ups ^^. Those are reasonable enough stats. Strength and Agility could be increased by physical training, but do you guys have ideas how Yoki and Sensing could be trained while suppressing it?

[Sleepy Speculator]

Well i did say it was a random arse grab of stats, and i'll try not to argue about it too much, but Clare being forced to up all her abilities without yoki has forced her towards Teresa's stats if nothing else, sensing ability can be trained since it's probably a pre-requisite of suppression in that you gotta be able to sense aura to suppress any leaks of it, the ghosts wiped out their aura so successfully principally because there was 3 yoki sensors in their group, even Galatea couldn't see them, and yet Teresa could home in on Raphealla, whos'e the only other known claymore to do such a thing.

The yoki is completely unknown, because who can tell, but i get the feeling it grows over time regardless of all else, and before Miria and Clare fell in Pieta i get the feeling the two strong lights comments were about Clare and Miria, i know this is problematic in that Clare wasn't strong enough to trigger an attack from Rigald, but then that was before she had another massive yoki release and held her awakened form in combat... the aura afterwards probably was boosted by such an action.

As for her mental control, Clare has gotta have one of the greatest mental controls in claymore as she's the only claymore to go so far on her own and control it. Jean may have had a mental control of A+ but even she couldn't pull herself back *and* although she held her body back she wasn't in combat.

Now as to Miria's speed, she may be so fast she leaves mirages behind but Clare boxed her in with windcutter, an offensive technique forcing her to retreat and concede the fight, after she got serious and that's with the yoki suppressed and no ability to use the sensing part of her fighting style, If Miria was a little faster she'd stand a chance but that relies on yoki and Clare would read that, and so i put their speed as the same, before conditions of +'s arise.

As for leadership... who'se in charge of the group between Cynthia and Clare it's not really clear, yet Clare led them out of the north, and she does give commands every now and then, it just requires the absence of Miria to see that in a given situation Clare would direct others to prevent casualties... one dead AB, 3 unconscious claymores, 2 captured mib's and not one civilian casualty or scratch... i'd say that's good leadership given the amount of people watching.

I was probably wrong on Cynthia's yoki, but it's gotta be good, cos she was already high ranked, i think if it was revealed, then it may be shown she'd give Galatea a good run for the money after all that training. Anyhow i kept the sensors all at the same level to prevent favouritism because although Tabitha is used as an eye, she hasn't shown anything outstandingly above what Cynthia or Clare could provide, when she interrupted the fight against Agatha she interrupted 'Helen' who just isn't as good at sensing and was about to do something impetuous.

Anyhow feel free to continue adjusting them guys, just don't think i take it too seriously and keep it friendly huh?

[Droplet]

Well i did say it was a random arse grab of stats, and i'll try not to argue about it too much, but Clare being forced to up all her abilities without yoki has forced her towards Teresa's stats if nothing else, sensing ability can be trained since it's probably a pre-requisite of suppression in that you gotta be able to sense aura to suppress any leaks of it, the ghosts wiped out their aura so successfully principally because there was 3 yoki sensors in their group, even Galatea couldn't see them, and yet Teresa could home in on Raphealla, whos'e the only other known claymore to do such a thing.

The yoki is completely unknown, because who can tell, but i get the feeling it grows over time regardless of all else, and before Miria and Clare fell in Pieta i get the feeling the two strong lights comments were about Clare and Miria, i know this is problematic in that Clare wasn't strong enough to trigger an attack from Rigald, but then that was before she had another massive yoki release and held her awakened form in combat... the aura afterwards probably was boosted by such an action.

As for her mental control, Clare has gotta have one of the greatest mental controls in claymore as she's the only claymore to go so far on her own and control it. Jean may have had a mental control of A+ but even she couldn't pull herself back *and* although she held her body back she wasn't in combat.

Now as to Miria's speed, she may be so fast she leaves mirages behind but Clare boxed her in with windcutter, an offensive technique forcing her to retreat and concede the fight, after she got serious and that's with the yoki suppressed and no ability to use the sensing part of her fighting style, If Miria was a little faster she'd stand a chance but that relies on yoki and Clare would read that, and so i put their speed as the same, before conditions of +'s arise.

As for leadership... who'se in charge of the group between Cynthia and Clare it's not really clear, yet Clare led them out of the north, and she does give commands every now and then, it just requires the absence of Miria to see that in a given situation Clare would direct others to prevent casualties... one dead AB, 3 unconscious claymores, 2 captured mib's and not one civilian casualty or scratch... i'd say that's good leadership given the amount of people watching.

I was probably wrong on Cynthia's yoki, but it's gotta be good, cos she was already high ranked, i think if it was revealed, then it may be shown she'd give Galatea a good run for the money after all that training. Anyhow i kept the sensors all at the same level to prevent favouritism because although Tabitha is used as an eye, she hasn't shown anything outstandingly above what Cynthia or Clare could provide, when she interrupted the fight against Agatha she interrupted 'Helen' who just isn't as good at sensing and was about to do something impetuous.

Anyhow feel free to continue adjusting them guys, just don't think i take it too seriously and keep it friendly huh?

Very interesting points. Especially the one about the ghosts being better yoki suppressors than Rafaela. I wonder about this one. Is Galatea a better sensor than Teresa or is it the other way around? And it's also a question about whether the Ghosts suppress their yoki better than Rafaela.

Interesting theory about how yoki grows when not being used. By the way, you're aware that Irene is the other Claymore who suppressed her yoki like the ghosts [that is, until she was discovered by Rafaela]. We could say that Irene was the first "ghost".

As for sensing, I'm surprised at how Cynthia was able to instinctively say "It's ok. They are safe" after the Fab4 rescued Audrey, et. al from Riful. Instinct, or yoki sensing? Perhaps even something similar to Miata's sense. :]

About Jean's mental control, I think her A+ is justified. Her willpower held strong. She could have turned back, but the problem was she didn't know how to realign her yoki unlike Clare (this was when Jean awakened). Clare can be given an A+ but she also had the additional advantage of being better at manipulating her yoki distribution. I wouldn't say she's the best in mental control but she's one of the best we've seen so far.

As for leadership, I don't have much input. If Miria is the standard (which is A+), then I'll assign from Ds to Bs to the other ghosts. I have little basis on how to judge leadership. Skipping this one for now. [Clare seems to be 2nd best though]

Here's my stats for the Ghosts :]

Clare

Yoki: S (who knows if she'll gush out so much energy by the time she uses yoki again, Yoki should be more elaborated upon though, imo)
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A+ (Her determination and will power is far above average;almost awakened twice, in one occasion partly intentional)
Sense: A+ (seems she still has a ways to go behind Teresa's sensing, but she could definitely reach that point)
Leadership: B (She seems to prioritize the safety of her team. This is a mere guess though)

Class: Offensive
Technique: Quick Sword, Windcutter, Yoki Suppression, Yoki Flow Reading, Limited Yoki Manipulation, Partial Awakening

Miria

Yoki: A
Agility: A+
Strength: B+ (could reach A+ momentarily if she does a 'speedstrike')
Mental: A (turned back from Awakening on her own)
Sense: A
Leadership: A+

Class: Offensive
Technique: Mirage, Phantom Mirage, Yoki Suppression

Helen

Yoki: A
Agility: B+
Strength: A
Mental: B+
Sense: B+
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive
Technique: Limb Stretching, Drill Sword, Yoki Suppression

Deneve

Yoki: A
Agility: B+
Strength: A+
Mental: A (went pass her limit on purpose and returned, Slashers arc)
Sense: B+
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive
Technique: Dual Wielder, Strength Enhancement, Rapid Generation, Yoki Suppression

Cynthia

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B+
Mental: B
Sense: A
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive
Technique: Yoki Suppression, Limited Yoki Manipulation (Healer)


Tabitha

Yoki: A
Agility: B+
Strength: B+
Mental: B+
Sense: A+
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive
Technique: Yoki Suppression

Yuma

Yoki: A
Agility:B
Strength: B+
Mental: B
Sense: A
Leadership: D (lack of self confidence)

Class: Defensive
Techniques: Yoki Suppression

[Stream]

Hiya,

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/959/rubelgp2.png I'll go throw my hat into the ring. Here's what I came up with!

Oh, btw, I took out youki cuz I really cant tell what youki should be.

Clare: (#1 level)
Agility: A+ [The awakened legs and the fact that Clare should have caught up to Irene by now makes me put it at least this high.]
Strength: A+ [Generic shonen protagonist power. Clare is mandated to be strong as a protagonist and she can summon extra strength whenever the plot demands it. Plus, Clare is the kind of person who would put a lot of force into her attacks.]
Mental: A+ [She never gives up, uses an extra-controlled version of the Quick Sword, and routinely, deliberately risks awakening. Clare more than anyone NEEDS this.]
Sensing: A+ could be. Also, her usage of youki manipulation, youki reading (in general), and the Quick Sword + youki reading (Clare's special extra-controlled version of the Quick Sword.) require that she's a capable youki sensor, so it stands to reason that she would have significantly improved her sensing ability for the sake of these abilities. Beyond that, it's been suggested that Clare trained youki sensing dedicatedly in the past to defeat ABs, and there's no reason why she wouldn't do the same during the timeskip.]
Leadership: B+ [Clare is probably capable of being just as effective of a leader as Miria (The earlier chapters showed she was really good at devising tactics to create advantageous circumstances and at, well, taking advantage of them.), but, unlike Miria, Clare tries to reject the mantle of leadership as much as possible, and unwilling leaders usually make bad leaders. Even so, we've seen her take command and juggle leadership with Miria effectively now so we can say she's probably a good, albeit reluctant, leader.]

Miria: (#1 level)
Agility: S+ [Miria's base speed improved, says Deneve. Up from A+ means S, but Miria can still do her old youki-bursted Mirage for added oomph, so I'll put it at S+.]
Strength: A [Timeskip powerup.]
Mental: A [Timeskip powerup.]
Sensing: B [She should be able to sense well, but not be on the level of an eye. Plus, Riful evaluation.]
Leadership: A+ [Still as good at leading as she was back then, but we haven't seen her be any better at it than she was back then.]

Deneve: (#2 level)
Agility: A+ [She still favors agility over brute strength, in all likelihood, so it makes sense it'd be her strongest ability.]
Strength: A [She is dualwielding Claymores like Undine was.]
Mental: A+ [She's that kind of person.]
Sensing: B [Timeskip powerup plus Riful evaluation.]
Leadership: C+ [Deneve is not really a leader, but she can maintain order, etc. well enough.]

Helen: (#3 level)
Agility: A [Timeskip powerup.]
Strength: A+ [Helen favors strength.]
Mental: B+ [Probably needs a reasonably high mental for using the Drill Sword.]
Sensing: C+ [My guess given her reaction to Riful, where she got the power right, but not so well the implications of that.]
Leadership: C [She can take charge, but she's not good for it.]

Cynthia: (#4 level)
Agility: A [She puts herself in Clare's league, so she's got to be at least A.]
Strength: B [No matter which way I look at it, Cynthia will not be whacking things down with a lot of force, but she's probably still strong, given a timeskip powerup.]
Mental: B+ [She's that kind of person.]
Sensing: B+ [She uses youki manipulation and has a good sensing range, but she's not as good as Tabitha, so I'd put her at B+ or A.]
Leadership: C+ [She's capable of keeping people in control.]

Tabitha: (#6 level)
Agility: B+ [She needs to be faster than Yuma but not that fast, since she appears to be mostly an eye.]
Strength: B [Same rationale as Cynthia.]
Mental: B [Timeskip powerup.]
Sensing: A [She is the eye of the group, and needs to be at least better than Miria. She should be at either A or A+ then. I put her at A because of slight hints that post-timeskip Tabitha is still an inferior sensor to pre-timeskip Galatea.]
Leadership: D [She doesn't give orders. She follows orders.]

Yuma: (#8 level)
Agility: B [Fast but not that fast.]
Strength: B [Strong but not that strong.]
Mental: C [Doesn't seem like she would have a high mental, but she's probably got enough experience not to have a lower mental by now.]
Sensing: C [Could not sense well during the Riful encounter.]
Leadership: E [Has almost no self-esteem, seems to be content with being used, and has never been in a position where she'd take the lead, EVER. (The last one goes for Tabitha too, tbh.)]

[fmfsgamers]

Clare

Yoki: A
Agility: B+
Strength: B+
Mental: A
Sense: A
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive
Technique: Quick Sword, Windcutter, Yoki Suppression

Miria

Yoki: A
Agility: A+
Strength: B+
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: A+

Class: Offensive
Technique: Mirage, Phantom Mirage, Yoki Suppression

Helen

Yoki: B+
Agility: B+
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sense: C+
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive
Technique: Limb Stretching, Drill Sword, Yoki Suppression

Deneve

Yoki: B+
Agility: B+
Strength: B+
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive
Technique:Rapid Generation, Yoki Suppression

Cynthia

Yoki: B
Agility: B+
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sense: B+
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive
Technique: Yoki Suppression


Tabitha

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: B
Mental: C+
Sense: B+
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive
Technique: Yoki Suppression

Yuma

Yoki: C+
Agility: B+
Strength: C+
Mental: C+
Sense: C+
Leadership: D

Class: Defensive
Techniques: Yoki Suppression

[Sleepy Speculator]

Okay i'll probably re-summarise all those guesstimates tomorrow if i can get on line and list comparisons with the previous rankings, that valerian helpfully put up..., i'll try and find the averedge between what most people think, so please if anyone else wants to add go ahead, we also need a guessed level of stats for Galatea, Miata and Clarice... Audrey Rachel and Nina if anyone wants to have a go...

[Sleepy Speculator]

Okay i'm back i'll try and get these right with a more reasonable guesstimate, please feel free to contribute again, and i'll leave as many notes as possible all over the place, i'm also amending leadership to represent the ability the work in groups as i think i was being harsh on Yuma who can work perfectly fine in groups unlike Clare who abandoned her team in training, and who had never worked with others when given the choice, or the #1 and #2 who are probably incapable of group work outside of each other. I don't know 'if' the databook would mention it in this way, but it would make sense as not every claymore would be in a leadership situation, especially if they are lower numbers, and the modern generation (Clarice's?) has been shown to use teamwork an awful lot more, and so it may be this has become more important to the org over the 7 year interval.

Clare

Yoki: A+ (i still think it's off the scale but no-one knows though)
Agility: A+
Strength: B+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive (Sensing type)
Technique: Quick Sword, Windcutter, Yoki Suppression, Pre Emptive Yoki Perception, Limited Yoki Manipulation, Partial Awakening, Yoki Tracking.

(N.B. Clare's speed is a plus due to her ability to combine/use her sword techniques which irrespective of her foot speed make her a faster fighter than Miria's new mirage technique. It should be noted that according to the statistics Irene was not marked as having better agility than Teresa despite believing her sword speed was faster, 'yet' Irene displayed no use of combat ability without yoki, and unlike Clare has not been shown running anywhere with any form of speed, and she still got an 'A'. Windcutter is of course a base speed ability 'before' yoki usage. Also on strength, Clare has never displayed any outrageaous aptitude in this ability and seems to fall short abit as she notes her new technique lacks power compared to quicksword 'in her convo with Galatea'. Irene's stats also imply a loss of strength for speed. Reading what others have said, and looking at Jean's Alicia's and Beth's stats i'm forced to think her continual survival of partial awakening irrespective of how she comes back places her mental control at A+ as she has technically pulled off to an extent what Rafeala failed at and her stat is A, also please note that Alicia and Beth don't magically come back from awakening on their own as they rely on their soul link partnership to do this. Also of note both times Clare's been pulled back has been by Claymores with exceptional mental control Galatea 'A' and Jean 'A+'. She has also become alot better at teamwork...)

Miria

Yoki: A (based on the averedge you guys suggested)
Agility: A+
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: B
Leadership: A+

Class: Offensive
Technique: Mirage, Phantom, Yoki Suppression

(N.B. I'd like to give Miria an S for speed, but i just don't think she's that fast, without having to reassess Clare's speed as even higher, basically she's retuned her technique to a usage without yoki much as Clare has however, her 'phantom' is gonna be difficult to increase in speed as although she can move faster, it's likely that the nature of the phantoms afterimage will remain the same due to it's instantaneous nature, her speed before Rabona was already assessed as A+, what she lacked was stamina to use it extensively, her major breakthrough has been an increase in strength/stamina over speed. Which is how she has attained her new Mirage technique. Please compare with her old stats if you think i'm being harsh here. I've left her sensing ability as B as i think that's about as good as it gets without being a sensing type.)

Cynthia

Yoki: A (She most likely had more than Pieta era Deneve regardless)
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: B+
Sense: A+
Leadership: B+

Class: Defensive (Sensing type)
Technique: Yoki Suppression, Yoki Healing/Manipulation.

(N.B. A very good well rounded fighter, she lacks the required push to prove a higher mental strength, though i suscpect it could easily be higher, proving that she is one of the most well rounded of the ghosts, having something better than each of the others. She is also a yoki manipulator which implies better mental control i believe, which is why she has received a very near 'A'. Similarly her stalwart position as Miria's second and now Clare's places her as an exceptionally good leutenant but rarely a captain.)

Deneve

Yoki: A (B+)
Agility: B+ (B)
Strength: A (C)
Mental: B+ (C+)
Sense: B (C)
Leadership: B (C)

Class: Defensive
Technique: Dual Wielder, Strength Enhancement, Rapid Regeneration, Yoki Suppression

(N.B. To prevent myself being grilled i've included in brackets Deneve's old stats so i can show what's changed and what hasn't, basically what hasn't changed is Deneve's personality, i think her mental strength was somewhat underestimated by the org, as she has gone over her limit and come back the most next to Clare, and whilst i give her the same leadership stat as Clare she is as much a troublemaker as ever, what's basically changed for Deneve is she's faster (please bear in mind despite being a 'B' before she still was getting repeatedly impaled/cut/slashed etc) and she's increased her strength dramatically, to facilitate dual wielding.)

P.S. i wanna thank mengsk for the previous stats and droplet for remembering to include techniques and other info. I welcome constructive criticism and helpful hints of course so feel free to comment, however i need to get some sleep so i'll try and do the rest tomorrow.

[Double_friedman]

Okay i'm back i'll try and get these right with a more reasonable guesstimate, please feel free to contribute again, and i'll leave as many notes as possible all over the place, i'm also amending leadership to represent the ability the work in groups as i think i was being harsh on Yuma who can work perfectly fine in groups unlike Clare who abandoned her team in training, and who had never worked with others when given the choice, or the #1 and #2 who are probably incapable of group work outside of each other. I don't know 'if' the databook would mention it in this way, but it would make sense as not every claymore would be in a leadership situation, especially if they are lower numbers, and the modern generation (Clarice's?) has been shown to use teamwork an awful lot more, and so it may be this has become more important to the org over the 7 year interval.

Clare

Yoki: A+ (i still think it's off the scale but no-one knows though)
Agility: A+
Strength: B+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive (Sensing type)
Technique: Quick Sword, Windcutter, Yoki Suppression, Pre Emptive Yoki Perception, Limited Yoki Manipulation, Partial Awakening, Yoki Tracking.

(N.B. Clare's speed is a plus due to her ability to combine/use her sword techniques which irrespective of her foot speed make her a faster fighter than Miria's new mirage technique. It should be noted that according to the statistics Irene was not marked as having better agility than Teresa despite believing her sword speed was faster, 'yet' Irene displayed no use of combat ability without yoki, and unlike Clare has not been shown running anywhere with any form of speed, and she still got an 'A'. Windcutter is of course a base speed ability 'before' yoki usage. Also on strength, Clare has never displayed any outrageaous aptitude in this ability and seems to fall short abit as she notes her new technique lacks power compared to quicksword 'in her convo with Galatea'. Irene's stats also imply a loss of strength for speed. Reading what others have said, and looking at Jean's Alicia's and Beth's stats i'm forced to think her continual survival of partial awakening irrespective of how she comes back places her mental control at A+ as she has technically pulled off to an extent what Rafeala failed at and her stat is A, also please note that Alicia and Beth don't magically come back from awakening on their own as they rely on their soul link partnership to do this. Also of note both times Clare's been pulled back has been by Claymores with exceptional mental control Galatea 'A' and Jean 'A+'. She has also become alot better at teamwork...)

Miria

Yoki: A (based on the averedge you guys suggested)
Agility: A+
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: B
Leadership: A+

Class: Offensive
Technique: Mirage, Phantom, Yoki Suppression

(N.B. I'd like to give Miria an S for speed, but i just don't think she's that fast, without having to reassess Clare's speed as even higher, basically she's retuned her technique to a usage without yoki much as Clare has however, her 'phantom' is gonna be difficult to increase in speed as although she can move faster, it's likely that the nature of the phantoms afterimage will remain the same due to it's instantaneous nature, her speed before Rabona was already assessed as A+, what she lacked was stamina to use it extensively, her major breakthrough has been an increase in strength/stamina over speed. Which is how she has attained her new Mirage technique. Please compare with her old stats if you think i'm being harsh here. I've left her sensing ability as B as i think that's about as good as it gets without being a sensing type.)

Cynthia

Yoki: A (She most likely had more than Pieta era Deneve regardless)
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: B+
Sense: A+
Leadership: B+

Class: Defensive (Sensing type)
Technique: Yoki Suppression, Yoki Healing/Manipulation.

(N.B. A very good well rounded fighter, she lacks the required push to prove a higher mental strength, though i suscpect it could easily be higher, proving that she is one of the most well rounded of the ghosts, having something better than each of the others. She is also a yoki manipulator which implies better mental control i believe, which is why she has received a very near 'A'. Similarly her stalwart position as Miria's second and now Clare's places her as an exceptionally good leutenant but rarely a captain.)

Deneve

Yoki: A (B+)
Agility: B+ (B)
Strength: A (C)
Mental: B+ (C+)
Sense: B (C)
Leadership: B (C)

Class: Defensive
Technique: Dual Wielder, Strength Enhancement, Rapid Regeneration, Yoki Suppression

(N.B. To prevent myself being grilled i've included in brackets Deneve's old stats so i can show what's changed and what hasn't, basically what hasn't changed is Deneve's personality, i think her mental strength was somewhat underestimated by the org, as she has gone over her limit and come back the most next to Clare, and whilst i give her the same leadership stat as Clare she is as much a troublemaker as ever, what's basically changed for Deneve is she's faster (please bear in mind despite being a 'B' before she still was getting repeatedly impaled/cut/slashed etc) and she's increased her strength dramatically, to facilitate dual wielding.)

P.S. i wanna thank mengsk for the previous stats and droplet for remembering to include techniques and other info. I welcome constructive criticism and helpful hints of course so feel free to comment, however i need to get some sleep so i'll try and do the rest tomorrow.

I agree with most of them, but you have to note that the + PLUS isn't an intermediate value, it means they can use it better than the average over some circumstances. So I'd correct Deneve's values.

[Droplet]

@Sleep Speculator. Those are some good stats :) It definitely justifies Miria's comment that all of the ghosts could hold their own against any single digit, if pressed to fight one on one.

Hey, is it possible for us to create a rubric for grading Claymore power levels? I think that would be handy (provided that we can make one) :)

[Sleepy Speculator]

Okay friedman, i get what your saying so i'll adjust Deneve's stats to as follows:-

Deneve:

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: A
Mental: B+
Sense: B
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive
Technique: Dual Wielder, Strength Enhancement, Rapid Regeneration, Yoki Suppression

(N.B. I'm willing to discuss and amend these stats as necessary to try and give us all a rough idea, if enough of you believe that Deneve deserves an A in sense or agility feel free to suggest, however she has always been shown slower than those with A level stats, and tends to rely on surviving her wounds more than avoiding them, similarly her sensing ability was never shown to be all that great)
So to continue...

Helen:

Yoki: A
Agility: B+
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive
Technique: Limb Stretching, Drill Sword, Yoki Suppression

(N.B. Helen was pretty hard to estimate as the major comparison for her is from her fighting in Pieta, even though her stats were lower than Deneve she put in a better performance, which leads me to believe that everyone really does like Helen. She's a little less teamwork savvy than Deneve, and although she's a partially awakaned she hasn't displayed any recent abilty that would give the (+), unlike Deneve and Clare, her limb stretching i think helps to boost her agility and Strength, especially with the use of the drillsword technique, it may make her the strongest attacker in the ghosts)

Tabitha:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sense: A+
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive (Sensing Type)
Technique: Yoki Suppression

(N.B. okay the first of the non partially awakened claymores and also the only one i have never seen do anything... Even so she is relied on to be the eye of the group by Miria over and above Clare and Cynthia and although this may be partly because it's a waste of deployment to keep Cynthia and Clare back, she obviously has at the very least the same level of sensing ability as Clare and Cynthia, and arguably by some on par with Galatea... though i really do think Galatea is the only one who can pull of an 'S' in this attribute)

Yuma:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: B
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: D

Class: Defensive
Techniques: Yoki Suppression, Yuma Punch!

(N.B. Okay her stats officially compare to being slightly better than Deneve No 15, though she is way above the 14 of the present generation... so i really have no idea, she is still consistently one of the worst yoki sensors in the group, and i'd daresay even poor little Clarice is better, though i won't be surprised if with her new confidence we see a boost in these stats a bit)

Okay i'm done, oh yeah we still need guesses for Audrey, Rachel, Nina, Miata, Clarice and Galatea, but i'll let someone else take a guess at them first whilst i ponder how to write a 'rubric' for judging claymore stats...

[Droplet]

Just an idea, maybe we could use a grading scale to assign numerical equivalents for the letters. Something like this:

S = 5.00
A+ = 4.33
A = 4.00
A- = 3.67
B+ = 3.33
B = 3.00
B- = 2.67
C+ = 2.33
C = 2.00
C- = 1.67
D+ = 1.33
D = 1.00
D- = 0.67
E+ = 0.33
E = 0.00

Then we can guesstimate the average required to be considered as strong as a single digit. Because I believe Miria mentioned something to the effect of "If you have that level of skill, you shouldn't be outdone by single digits". So at least all the ghosts are of single digit skill.

They should at least be greater than or equal to Jean's average.

Jean's Stats:

Yoki: B (3.00)
Agility: C (2.00)
Strength: B+ (3.33)
Mental: A+ (4.33)
Sense: C (2.00)
Leadership: C (2.00)

Average: 2.78. Since 2.78 is closer to 2.67 than 3.00, then Jean's average is B-

Therefore the ghosts' average must be at least equal or above to B-. There are problems with this method because we only have one #9 to work with (Jean). We don't know the rest of the number nines who've worked for the org. Still, this is one way to estimate the ghosts strength I suppose.

edit: here are the averages of the other single digits, following this system [rounded off to the hundreth digit):

Clare's Generation (please look at the post of Fenrir valindri on page 92 to see the values in the guide book. I used all the stats, including leadership. Some might want to compute their stats without including leadership, so feel free.)

#8 Flora: 2.83 (closer to 2.67 = B-)
#6 Miria: 3.17 (closer to 3.33 = B+)
#5 Raphaela: 3.67 (A-)
#4 Ophelia: 3.22 (closer to 3.33 = B+)
#3 Galatea: 3.44 (closer to 3.33 = B+)
#2 Beth: 3.72 (closer to 3.67 = A-)
#1 Alicia: 3.72 (A-)

note: notice that the averages increases with rank, except with raphaela, but raphaela's average is near Alicia so this justifies that Raphaela really was #1 level along with Luciella. however, these averages only show their raw general ability as Claymores but not as Awakened Beings, according to the org's estimate of course.

Teresa's Generation

#5 Noel: 2.89 (closer to 3.00 = B)
#4 Sophia: 3.06 (closer to 3.00 = B)
#3 Irene: 3.72 (closer to 3.67 = A-)
#2 Priscilla: 3.22 (closer to 3.33 = B+)
#1 Teresa: 4.17 (closer to 4.33 = A+)

I hope this provides you a more objective view on our Claymores' power levels.

Edit: @Sleepy: it's fine even if we don't come up with one soon due to our lack of more info. :) I just had that idea of making a rubric after thinking about the mineral scale of hardness. (I.e. "if it can cut Riful's ribbons, it must have at least a strength of A")

[Sleepy Speculator]

It's a good idea droplet, only the problem is technically there are only 5 real grades A through to E, the (+) is a hard thing to add but represents a special ablity that makes it better than an averedge claymore of the same ability level, e.g. Clare's sword technique being so fast that her speed could be judged A+ as opposed to A, or any of the sensing claymores, all of whom we've seen are about as good as it gets at sensing, except Renee who is an 'A' i'd say, she certainly didn't see Riful till it was too late, but again that's debatable...

If it helps anyone reading this, it seems there is some confusion as to what some of the stats represent, so i'll have a kick at what i think they point to...

Yoki - Quality and Quantity of yoma energy
Strength - Raw power and Stamina
Agility - Speed and Flexibility
Mental - Willpower and to a certain extent a measurement of Yoki Control
Sense - Yoki sensing ability (Range, Depth and Frequency)
Leadership - The ability to lead and follow orders... Teamwork...

The Averedge Claymore in the org has the following stats

Yoki: C
Strength: C
Agility: C
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: C

Numbers #10 - #25/30 have this level of stats, notice Undine pretty much had this level of stats except with Strength

Numbers #5 - #10 typically have stats that include at least 3 B's so your'e looking at this for a good number #5 warrior with the abscence of Rafeala

Yoki: B
Strength: B
Agility: B
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: B

And those in the #1-#4 slot seem to have 3 'A's in various stats at least, the difference should anyone care to check with Teresa's generation is that Clare's generation had alot more monsters in it, and included an experienced 'eye' #3, a psychotic AB slaying #4 and the previous #1 kicking around in #5 slot doing covert ops. Teresa's generation literally had only the #1 and #2 as 'monsters'.

[Serous]

teresa's generation has 3 monsters, Irene Priscilla and Teresa. Of course, Clare's had the top 5 being exceptional claymores.

[Sleepy Speculator]

I just meant for Teresa's generation in general only two claymores ever really stood out it seems, Teresa and Rosemary, then Teresa and Irene, and finally Irene and Priscilla hunting the renegade Teresa. Noel and Sophia held #3 and #4 slots but would be hard pressed against the likes of Galatea and Ophelia from Clare's generation...

[Stream]

I just updated my guesses and added rationales why on my post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1910852#post1910852).

[Sleepy Speculator]

Galatea

Yoki: A+
Agility: A
Strength: A+
Mental: A
Sensing: S
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive (Sensing Type)

Technique: Yoki Manipulation

As the strongest rebel the org has had from Clare's generation, she had impressive stats from the start, and i don't think she got worse..., however she lacks Clare and Miria's speed, though she is by far one of the greatest yoki sensors...

[Droplet]

I just updated my guesses and added rationales why on my post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1910852#post1910852).

The post looks much better and easier to read. :)

Um, here's a guesstimate for Miata:

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A+
Mental: D
Sensing: S
Leadership: E

A very powerful powerful with one of the most unstable minds arounds, Miata deserves an A+ in strength. Ripping yomas apart with brute force and pulling an Awakened #2 towards you is definitely no easy feat for the average Claymore.

As for Agility, she gets an A just for being able to keep up with Galatea. For sensing, she's the only warrior since Teresa who I would say deserves an S. Sniffing Miata not only sensed Galatea from miles away, she was also on pills whilst doing so.

Not much to say about leadership.^^

[Sleepy Speculator]

Hmm, i'm not gonna disagree too much with those stats that's a pretty well reasoned guess droplet, but the yoki sensing as S i think may be out of whack because it's not technically what she does... though it does lead to another theory i just had... (only offensive claymores have mentioned 'smell' first Clare in her early chapters, then Ophelia with regards to Clare and finally Miata who uses it like the rest of the claymores use yoki sensing, now the interesting thing here is the org is we assume trying to create claymores who can find yoma as a priority)

And since i'm here i'll throw in a guess for Audrey...

Audrey:

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: B(+)
Leadership: A

Class: Unknown (presumed Defensive)
Technique: Gentle sword

It's a guess but from her personality i think she's an allrounder and a good leader but even so had the misfortune to get caught by Riful...

Rachel:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sensing: C
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive... and if she isn't i'll eat my hat
Technique: Strong sword

I think she almost has the same stats as Sophia...

[lsley]

lol, I wasn't here for a while, and now it looks like a maths thread xD

[Double_friedman]

Hmm, i'm not gonna disagree too much with those stats that's a pretty well reasoned guess droplet, but the yoki sensing as S i think may be out of whack because it's not technically what she does... though it does lead to another theory i just had... (only offensive claymores have mentioned 'smell' first Clare in her early chapters, then Ophelia with regards to Clare and finally Miata who uses it like the rest of the claymores use yoki sensing, now the interesting thing here is the org is we assume trying to create claymores who can find yoma as a priority)

And since i'm here i'll throw in a guess for Audrey...

Audrey:

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: B(+)
Leadership: A

Class: Unknown (presumed Defensive)
Technique: Gentle sword

It's a guess but from her personality i think she's an allrounder and a good leader but even so had the misfortune to get caught by Riful...

Rachel:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sensing: C
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive... and if she isn't i'll eat my hat
Technique: Strong sword

I think she almost has the same stats as Sophia...

My guesstimates, I only changed the ones highlighted.;)
Audrey:

Yoki: B
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: B(+)
Leadership: A

Class: Unknown (presumed Defensive)
Technique: Gentle sword
Nickname: URinator Audrey
It's a guess but from her personality i think she's an allrounder and a good leader but even so had the misfortune to get caught by Riful...

Rachel:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sensing: F
Leadership: B
Nickname: Strong butch Rachel
Class: Offensive... and if she isn't i'll eat my hat
Technique: Strong sword

Miata
Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: S
Mental: E
Sensing: A
Leadership: F

[Elandyll]

It's all about estimations and guesses, definitely, but the recent chapters (from Agatha to the arrival of Rubel) would let us think that both Ghost Miria and Ghost Clare are in fact possibly stronger (overall) than either Miata or Galathea ...

I guess we might have to wait to confirm this impression. :confused:

[Droplet]

Hmm, i'm not gonna disagree too much with those stats that's a pretty well reasoned guess droplet, but the yoki sensing as S i think may be out of whack because it's not technically what she does... though it does lead to another theory i just had... (only offensive claymores have mentioned 'smell' first Clare in her early chapters, then Ophelia with regards to Clare and finally Miata who uses it like the rest of the claymores use yoki sensing, now the interesting thing here is the org is we assume trying to create claymores who can find yoma as a priority)

And since i'm here i'll throw in a guess for Audrey...

Audrey:

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: B(+)
Leadership: A

Class: Unknown (presumed Defensive)
Technique: Gentle sword

It's a guess but from her personality i think she's an allrounder and a good leader but even so had the misfortune to get caught by Riful...

Rachel:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sensing: C
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive... and if she isn't i'll eat my hat
Technique: Strong sword

I think she almost has the same stats as Sophia...

That's a helpful feedback. I'll readjust accordingly.

Miata

Yoki: A+ (I realized that Galatea mentioned that Miata's Yoki surpasses hers*)
Agility: A
Strength: A+
Mental: B**
Sensing: A+
Leadership: E

*http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/74/27/. Also, Pre timeskip Galatea had a Yoki grade of "A". It's fair to say that her yoki became "A+" after the timeskip. Let's consider that Miata exceeds Galatea's "A+" yoki. I'm concluding that Miata's yoki ranges from A+ to S. What would you give her?

**I gave Miata a D before because of her mental state, but it looks like "mental state" isn't necessarily what determines willpower. So if I judge Miata by the willpower she's demonstrated so far, I'd give her a B. Chapter 77 Page 14 onwards (Miata quickly reattaching limbs, which is hard to under pressure;Miata throwing her sword at Agatha despite being weighed down on the ground by Agatha's tentacles; finally, Miata still trying to fight despite looking absolutely exhausted.)


Yoki - Quality and Quantity of yoma energy
Strength - Raw power and Stamina
Agility - Speed and Flexibility
Mental - Willpower and to a certain extent a measurement of Yoki Control
Sense - Yoki sensing ability (Range, Depth and Frequency)
Leadership - The ability to lead and follow orders... Teamwork...


I think the stats you gave Audrey are good. It makes her at least as strong as pre timeskip Galatea. Just one little edit though:

Audrey:

Yoki: A
Agility: B+
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: B+
Leadership: A

(B+ is a valid grade, right? Priscilla and Galatea were given a B+ in the official book, whose contents were posted at the beginning of this thread. Just making sure.)

As for Rachel, that looks just right; really similar to Sophia. Neither Audrey nor Rachel sensed Galatea's inner power, so they most likely have sensing below A but above C since they're single digits. I also noticed that if Noel & Sophia were in Clare's generation. They'd be rank #8 and #7 respectively. Then Flora would be demoted to #9. Just IMO, though.

[Double_friedman]

That's a helpful feedback. I'll readjust accordingly.

Miata

Yoki: A+ (I realized that Galatea mentioned that Miata's Yoki surpasses hers*)
Agility: A
Strength: A+
Mental: B**
Sensing: A+
Leadership: E

*http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/74/27/. Also, Pre timeskip Galatea had a Yoki grade of "A". It's fair to say that her yoki became "A+" after the timeskip. Let's consider that Miata exceeds Galatea's "A+" yoki. I'm concluding that Miata's yoki ranges from A+ to S. What would you give her?

**I gave Miata a D before because of her mental state, but it looks like "mental state" isn't necessarily what determines willpower. So if I judge Miata by the willpower she's demonstrated so far, I'd give her a B. Chapter 77 Page 14 onwards (Miata quickly reattaching limbs, which is hard to under pressure;Miata throwing her sword at Agatha despite being weighed down on the ground by Agatha's tentacles; finally, Miata still trying to fight despite looking absolutely exhausted.)



I think the stats you gave Audrey are good. It makes her at least as strong as pre timeskip Galatea. Just one little edit though:

Audrey:

Yoki: A
Agility: B+
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: B+
Leadership: A

(B+ is a valid grade, right? Priscilla and Galatea were given a B+ in the official book, whose contents were posted at the beginning of this thread. Just making sure.)

As for Rachel, that looks just right; really similar to Sophia. Neither Audrey nor Rachel sensed Galatea's inner power, so they most likely have sensing below A but above C since they're single digits. I also noticed that if Noel & Sophia were in Clare's generation. They'd be rank #8 and #7 respectively. Then Flora would be demoted to #9. Just IMO, though.

I actually thought Miata regenerated her own hands. And something to remember, Raphaella had obviously more youki than Galatea and she had A. Galatea's yoki boost was the biggest, that's why she had a + in her B in youki.

[chibamonster]

Miata's hands didn't look like a regeneration to me, it seemed more like they were fusing back together. Like the 6 armed AB who caught his arms in the air after Helen cut them off. Of course the only regeneration I am basing this off of is Deneve's. It just seems the youki marks are only at the wrist points where Miata's hands were severed.

[iLney]

Or it is just like what Pris did to Isley?
________
Honda CRF230 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_CRF230)

[Double_friedman]

Miata's hands didn't look like a regeneration to me, it seemed more like they were fusing back together. Like the 6 armed AB who caught his arms in the air after Helen cut them off. Of course the only regeneration I am basing this off of is Deneve's. It just seems the youki marks are only at the wrist points where Miata's hands were severed.

I actually read on one translation, there Agatha commented that Miata didn't regenerate them well, I also don't know how far she was from her hands. But obviously she had to regenerate a piece of her hands to be able to reattach the other part.

http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/77/10/

NOTE: obviously it wasn't onemanga's translation.

[Ryuken]

Galatea

Yoki: A+
Agility: A
Strength: A+
Mental: A
Sensing: S
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive (Sensing Type)

Technique: Yoki Manipulation

As the strongest rebel the org has had from Clare's generation, she had impressive stats from the start, and i don't think she got worse..., however she lacks Clare and Miria's speed, though she is by far one of the greatest yoki sensors...

Your testimony about Galatea is very assuring @Sleepy, I love it.:)

Hmm, i'm not gonna disagree too much with those stats that's a pretty well reasoned guess droplet, but the yoki sensing as S i think may be out of whack because it's not technically what she does... though it does lead to another theory i just had... (only offensive claymores have mentioned 'smell' first Clare in her early chapters, then Ophelia with regards to Clare and finally Miata who uses it like the rest of the claymores use yoki sensing, now the interesting thing here is the org is we assume trying to create claymores who can find yoma as a priority)

And I also agree with you on this one @Sleepy.:)

[chibamonster]

Well, time to put an end to this Miata regeneration stuff. Here's the Romanji of what Agatha said;
"Chigireta te ow tsunageta no ne. Tsutanae nagara kanshin suru wa".
(千切れた手を繋げたのね。拙いながら感心するわ。)

Here are the important words:
chigireru: 千切れる 【ちぎれる】 to be torn off; to be torn to pieces
tsunageru: 繋げる 【つなげる】 to tie; to fasten; to connect; to transfer
Tsutanae: 拙い 【つたない; まずい】 clumsy; unskillful; foolish; unlucky
Kanshin Suru: 感心 【かんしん】 admiration; Well done!;

A literal (and hilarious) translation would go something like
Agatha: your hands that were torn off you have reattached haven't you? While it is clumsy I am impressed.

So my translation is (from the previous pages...)
Agatha: "Huh? How did you manage to throw this?"
Miata: mama mama
Agatha: "Oh? You reattached your severed hands didn't you. While it looks pretty haphazard I am still impressed."

Well, I'm not so hot at making Japanese sound like good English. I tend to have a real appreciation for translations that convey the real meaning as opposed to what is literally said, but that is just me. So from the raw it appears that Miata reattached her hands. This makes sense as she was not even holding her sword when she lost her hands and somehow managed to get it back too as she did chuck it at Agatha's head. The real question is, how did Miata manage to get her hands and sword back? She was just slammed into the ground where she was standing so they were probably pretty close together.

[Double_friedman]

Well, time to put an end to this Miata regeneration stuff. Here's the Romanji of what Agatha said;
"Chigireta te ow tsunageta no ne. Tsutanae nagara kanshin suru wa".
(千切れた手を繋げたのね。拙いながら感心するわ。)

Here are the important words:
chigireru: 千切れる 【ちぎれる】 to be torn off; to be torn to pieces
tsutanai: 繋げる 【つなげる】 to tie; to fasten; to connect; to transfer
Tsutanae: 拙い 【つたない; まずい】 clumsy; unskillful; foolish; unlucky
Kanshin Suru: 感心 【かんしん】 admiration; Well done!;

A literal (and hilarious) translation would go something like
Agatha: your hands that were torn off you have reattached haven't you? While it is clumsy I am impressed.

So my translation is (from the previous pages...)
Agatha: "Huh? How did you manage to throw this?"
Miata: mama mama
Agatha: "Oh? You reattached your severed hands didn't you. It looks pretty haphazard but I am still impressed."

Well, I'm not so hot at making Japanese sound like good English. I tend to have a real appreciation for translations that convey the real meaning as opposed to what is literally said, but that is just me. So from the raw it appears that Miata reattached her hands. This makes sense as she was not even holding her sword when she lost her hands and somehow managed to get it back too as she did chuck it at Agatha's head. The real question is, how did Miata manage to get her hands and sword back? She was just slammed into the ground where she was standing so they were probably pretty close together.

OOh, that solves a lot of trouble. :D

[Droplet]

Miata's hands were dismembered but were still clinging onto Agatha's tentacles. I'm guessing that Miata was able to reattach her hands because it was in proximity. Perhaps the tentacles that got a hold of her hands were near the ground too. Regarding her sword, my simplest guess is that she fortunately dropped it near where she was slammed down.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Clare:

Yoki: A+
Agility: A+
Strength: B+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive (Sensing type)
Technique: Quick Sword, Windcutter, Yoki Suppression, Pre Emptive Yoki Perception, Limited Yoki Manipulation, Partial Awakening, Yoki Tracking.

Miria:

Yoki: A
Agility: A+
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: B
Leadership: A+

Class: Offensive
Technique: Mirage, Phantom, Yoki Suppression

Cynthia:

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: B+
Sense: A+
Leadership: B+

Class: Defensive (Sensing type)
Technique: Yoki Suppression, Yoki Healing/Manipulation.

Deneve:

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: A
Mental: B+
Sense: B
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive
Technique: Dual Wielder, Strength Enhancement, Rapid Regeneration, Yoki Suppression

Helen:

Yoki: A
Agility: B+
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive
Technique: Limb Stretching, Drill Sword, Yoki Suppression

Tabitha:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sense: A+
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive (Sensing Type)
Technique: Yoki Suppression

Yuma:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: B
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: D

Class: Defensive
Techniques: Yoki Suppression, Yuma Punch!

Galatea:

Yoki: A+
Agility: A
Strength: A+
Mental: A
Sensing: S
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive (Sensing Type)
Techniques: Yoki Manipulation, Yoki suppression(blown)

Miata:

Yoki: A+
Agility: A
Strength: A+
Mental: C
Sensing: A+
Leadership: E

Class: Offensive
Techniques: Sixth Sense/Heightened Senses

Audrey:

Yoki: A
Agility: B+
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: B+
Leadership: A

Class: Defensive
Techniques: Gentle sword

Rachel:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sensing: C
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive
Techniques: Strong sword

Clarice:

Yoki: F
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive (Sensing Type?)
Techniques: None

(N.B. poor Clarice, she is so maligned given the rather difficult situation she is in, no objection to being a teamplayer but nevertheless handicapped by a complete lack of yoki access by all appearances, yet something lurks there and she did manage to become a claymore, she also nearly landed a critical hit on Agatha...somehow)

For comparisons Valerian Mengsks posts lists the old official databook stuff on page 92, and i have delibaretely not downgraded Rachels sensing because even the 'eye' didn't see it till it was too late and she must hae passed her claymore exam.

Begin discussion now, and we shall also set up some guidelines for what counts for what... enjoy.

[Droplet]

Clarice:

Yoki: F
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive (Sensing Type?)
Techniques: None



Just a minor suggestion, I'll mark it in red

Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: C

Hmm, as for class, she's defensive and perhaps "Miata's-surrogate-mother" type..or just 'unique' maybe :)

[Sleepy Speculator]

I won't argue too much about Clarice having the difference between E and F and no one's ever had an F grade in anything before if it's even possible, but despite Clare having the lowest yoki grade at the start she still used it, Clarice has shown none whatsoever. I'm even of the opinion that the reason her hair colour remains is 'because' she can't use yoki, at least not yet...

[PureYoki]

@ Sleepy Speculator:

I think classification based on letters is not very meaningful in comparing strong claymores with each other. Let me give you an example, consider Galatea vs Miata.

Galatea said Miata's yoki surpasses hers, so either Miata is a S or Galatea is an A.

Miata also can detect, track down and measure power levels of claymores whose yoki are fully-suppressed, she is even better than Galatea in this regard, why isn't she a S?

Miata tore lots of yoma to pieces with her bare hands. So either all A+ strength level can accomplish this feat, or Miata is above A+ class.

What do you think?

[Sordes Pilosus]

PureYoki i agree with you. The current layout of stats atlest isent very good it has to many holes in it that can hold vital clues about the Claymore's. Even if Databooks or simular uses those stat lists doesent mean we need to stick to them due to them not being very informative.

How would this layout to portrait stats be to replace the one above ?:

Youki:
Strenght:
Technice:
Mobility:
Mental:
Leadership:
Abilities:
Bonus:

To Outline each stat to show what they represent: Youki is basicly the amount of Youki at their disposal. Its the general stat Claymore's uses to define each other on mostly. Strenght outlines the general power of the Claymore's attacks, be it barehanded, with a sword etc. Technic goes on the oposite end of Power, the ability to generaly use the sword. Parrying, accuracy etc goes under this category. Mobility represents the Claymore's general movement. Evasion, Mirages, general movment speed goes under this category. Mental is a stat i was missing above, representing the Claymore's general mental strenght and ability to keep a "cool mind". Clare is rather special here since i feel she deserves both S and E at the same time. But the stat generaly refers how mentaly stabil the claymore is, how well the claymore adapts in battle and so forth. Leadership, the general ability to lead others in or out of battle. A very simple one. Here is a key one. Abilities, the general impact does "Windcutter, Mirages" etc give to the CLaymore's strenght. While the Mirages also gives Miria a huge Mobility stat its also one of her abilities that "gives her an edge in battle" The ability to manipulate Youki, Reading the flow, or any other combat ability goes under this grouping. Last is Bonus, basicly what "Else is there that gives this Claymore strenght" In Clare's case she is currently both Cloacked and capable of generating massive increase in strenght with partial awakening even if crude. Cynthia can add Healing to her bonus list aswell as its more of out of combat ability. Longrange sensing also would give a increase to this stat. Like Miata might have very simular stats to Galatea but fall very short on the Mental one, indicating that even if strong if lacking someplace it shows clearly.

[Stream]

Just about all ranking systems have their problems and tend to be excessively arbitrary. Lets not reinvent the wheel and just stick with what we got in the data books.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Erm i didn't invent the databooks, and their ranking system of A-E, and two claymores given the same stat can have quite different levels, especially with regard to say the next stat. (the +) merely represents a special level of adjustment the claymore can pull off. I believe it was droplet that asked what anyone thinks the current stats are compared to the old ones so i posted, the idea is to try and see what you guys think compared to mine as such Clarice literally has the same stats as Clare...given droplet's last amendment, which i've no arguement with as i said, though i did throw in an F which is probably an invalid stat.

Clarice:

Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive (Sensing Type?)
Techniques: None

[Stream]

Ah woops.

I was talking about Sordes Pilosus's idea for new criteria. Sorry about the confusion.

[Sordes Pilosus]

Stream, im saying the Databook stats are flawed, they are a POOR representation of the Claymore's "True Stats", Its like some old RPG Games, you can have someone with massive Strenght and everyone would start to think the person is good, but then you notice the person's abilities are shit, and even a person of half the strenght outdooes him because of the abilities or traits that the weaker person has.

And sticking to the old stats "just" because they where used in Databooks thats an "Offical Source" does not deffend the fact of using a system that doesent really help at all in showing the Claymore's true strenght. Its just throwing around numbers and values most should just ignore because they really aint telling whats important anyway. Thats just like: Naa we know the education system sucks, but we dont want to change it into something new because we are all so used to this one.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think people are throwing around high letter grades too often, so here is my take on it. :eyespin:

Please note that I am using ( ) to indicate that the stat occasionally spikes depending on technique or special circumstances.


Clare:

Yoki: A (S)
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive
Technique: Flash-Sword, Windcutter, Yoki Suppression, Pre-emptive Yoki Perception.

Clare's ability in Yoki should be considered special, even above the other ghosts due to Teresa's flesh, she isn't always more powerful then everyone else all the time, but her Yoki isn't normal either, and that is what "S" indicates.

Clare's Flash-sword/Windcutter is deceptive in that is is a extremely fast skill, but does not actually increase her agility. It should definetly be taken into consideration for combat potential.

---------

Miria:

Yoki: A
Agility: A+ (S)
Strength: B+
Mental: A+
Sense: B
Leadership: A+

Class: Offensive
Technique: Mirage, Phantom, Yoki Suppression.

Both Miria's strength and agility have proven superior to Clare's in the past, and agility is more about mobility then it is about attack speed (which is what Clare specializes in), thus the reason Miria has a superior score here.

----------

Cynthia:

Yoki: B
Agility: A
Strength: B+
Mental: B+
Sense: A+
Leadership: B+

Class: Defensive
Technique: Yoki Suppression, Yoki Healing/Manipulation.

Unlike the partially-awakened, I believe Cynthia's growth is more limited, but still substantial.

---------

Deneve:

Yoki: B+
Agility: B
Strength: A (A+)
Mental: B+
Sense: B
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive
Technique: Strength bursting, Rapid Regeneration, Yoki Suppression

The strength enchancement that she adopted from Undine would spike her strength well above the norm when she uses it.

-----------

Helen:

Yoki: B+
Agility: B+
Strength: B+ (S)
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive
Technique: Limb Stretching, Drill Sword, Yoki Suppression

Helen's Drill sword gives her an unreal amount of power, much like Jean had previously, and that was considered the most powerful attack among all Claymores. (power wise)

------------

Tabitha:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sense: A+
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive
Technique: Yoki Suppression, Advanced Yoki-sensing.

Really hard to tell most of her stats, but she is an excellent Yoki-reader.

----------

Yuma:

Yoki: B
Agility: B+
Strength: B
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: D

Class: Defensive
Techniques: Yoki Suppression

Same here, but we at least got to see her fight, and she is pretty agile.

-------

Galatea:

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: B+ (A+)
Mental: A
Sensing: S
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive
Techniques: Yoki Manipulation, (very)Advanced Yoki-sensing, Strength Bursting.

Her stats wouldn't change much from 7 years ago, with the obvious exception of her sensing. She was in hiding, not training like crazy. (Unlike the Ghosts)

------------

Miata:

Yoki: A+
Agility: A
Strength: A+
Mental: C
Sensing: S
Leadership: E

Class: Offensive
Techniques: Sixth Sense/Heightened Senses

Potential #1 indeed, lacking in experience however.

---------

Audrey:

Yoki: B+
Agility: B+
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: B+
Leadership: A

Class: Defensive
Techniques: Gentle sword

Hard to judge as we have only seen her fight Riful, but I think she is something around this.

--------

Rachel:

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: A (A+)
Mental: B
Sensing: C
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive
Techniques: Strong sword

Same as Audrey.

--------

Clarice:

Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive
Techniques: None

Poor girl sucks as much as Clare used to, except she isn't a stone-cold focused as Clare was, and doesn't have Teresa's flesh to save her rear. (She does have Miata however :heh: ) She is significantly more willing to work with others though. :heh:

[Awakened]

Stream, im saying the Databook stats are flawed, they are a POOR representation of the Claymore's "True Stats", Its like some old RPG Games, you can have someone with massive Strenght and everyone would start to think the person is good, but then you notice the person's abilities are shit, and even a person of half the strenght outdooes him because of the abilities or traits that the weaker person has.

And sticking to the old stats "just" because they where used in Databooks thats an "Offical Source" does not deffend the fact of using a system that doesent really help at all in showing the Claymore's true strenght. Its just throwing around numbers and values most should just ignore because they really aint telling whats important anyway. Thats just like: Naa we know the education system sucks, but we dont want to change it into something new because we are all so used to this one.

I agree.
All these stats are for book-keeping. They can't explane why Clare #47 with the lowest yoki can almost solo a Ab. The Ab was not a pushover, he showed a #6, #15, and a #22 what true dispear was realy like.

Edit: Shamelessly trying to get publicity for my post.
Look at my post on what Clare might look like if she awakens. The post can be found in the biology tread, that might be a good way to go.

[Elandyll]

I agree.
All these stats are for book-keeping. They can't explane why Clare #47 with the lowest yoki can almost solo a Ab. The Ab was not a pushover, he showed a #6, #15, and a #22 what true dispear was realy like.

Almost? :)

For all intent and purposes, and even considering that Riglado was toying with his "food" before getting serious, she -did- solo a strong #2 Male AB :)

I think this makes of Clare a sort of "X Factor", very hard to gauge, because let's be honest, she will be as strong as needed for her to be the hero (and it always works best when said hero appears "weak" originally and is underestimated by everyone for the "cheer" factor).

My 2cp on this ;)

[Awakened]

Almost? :)

For all intent and purposes, and even considering that Riglado was toying with his "food" before getting serious, she -did- solo a strong #2 Male AB :)

I think this makes of Clare a sort of "X Factor", very hard to gauge, because let's be honest, she will be as strong as needed for her to be the hero (and it always works best when said hero appears "weak" originally and is underestimated by everyone for the "cheer" factor).

My 2cp on this ;)

I was talking about the slasher-arc, the six arm Ab, not Rigaldo. Notice I said almost soloed an Ab. Clare soloed Rigaldo.

[Stream]

Sordes Pilosus, now you've gone and pushed my buttons because I strongly, strongly, STRONGLY believe we should reform the education system.

Now, I don't think you can compare Claymore to an RPG because in Claymore strength, etc. is more plot-based than stat/math-based. The reason I say we should stick to the databooks is because, as you say, we're just throwing around numbers. Your system is still throwing around numbers. If we have to throw around numbers, I say we should be able to compare cannon numbers.

[Double_friedman]

QUOTE Stream: "Sordes Pilosus, now you've gone and pushed my buttons because I strongly, strongly, STRONGLY believe we should reform the education system.

Now, I don't think you can compare Claymore to an RPG because in Claymore strength, etc. is more plot-based than stat/math-based. The reason I say we should stick to the databooks is because, as you say, we're just throwing around numbers. Your system is still throwing around numbers. If we have to throw around numbers, I say we should be able to compare cannon numbers."


I actually read that Clarice's stats were all F, and saw her datacard. I remember seeing it on Naruto Forums and someone said: God is she the worst?

Oh, I didn't know in Japan people use the same grade system.
NOTE: maybe it was fan made, because why would Yagi bother to show us the datacard of clarice, but not Miata's or Audrey.

[Stream]

I've seen some fan-made edits to the data books now. I think they're fake, but, all the same, could you PM me where you got them?

[Droplet]

Perhaps what we're doing now is how the org decided the stats in the data book. Just a thought. :)

[Double_friedman]

I've seen some fan-made edits to the data books now. I think they're fake, but, all the same, could you PM me where you got them?

I found it on Naruto forums in the thread of Claymore, but because that thread is like 700 pages long, I think it's very hard to find that datacard again.

[Sleepy Speculator]

I wasn't aware there was already a data card for Clarice, sounds as made up as my stats...

[Sordes Pilosus]

Steam, the education system needs to be reformed in about 95% of the world. They have forgotten what a school really is: A place to prepare a new generation for the "grown up life". To much useless material is being thought that they only need to pass an exam but never use again. A wastefull system.


But back on topic. No i dont think we should use cannon stats. Not here atlest, the reason is what we are doing here is trying to "discuss" the general power between claymore's so we can get a decent impression of them. Using a system that is just throwing around numbers in a uninformative way aint usefull. Its true my system aint much different. But the very least its "better" then the cannon one to point out strenghts etc in a claymore making it better to use for discussions etc as we mainly do here.

[Stream]

Well, yeah, but I don't see how that'd make the conversations here any better. I mean, if the issue is that throwing around numbers aint useful, then I think the answer is just to stop using numbers. What you're suggesting is too much effort with too little pay off imo. I mean, if you want to do it, go ahead, but I'm not sure how it helps any.

Anyhow, I disagree. I really think schools focused too much on this idea of "preparing a new generation for the 'grown up life.'" They're just very indirect about it and believe that "school prepares you for college," "college prepares you for 'the real world,'" and then you are ready for "grown up life." If they took a more hands-on solution, maybe it'd be better.

I think one of the big problems is that students and teachers just forget this about schools: "Schools are a place for learning." It should be someplace where you can like learning too, but, instead, all you get is a system which magically manages to make the subject the least interesting when you have a class about it. That's not because when you have a class you have to actually learn it. It's because once they make a class out of it they make it drudgery to study and learn it. The fun just gets sucked out of it.

People should be able to have fun and really learn. That's my 2¢.

[chibamonster]

@Stream: it seems like they are doing the stats for their own fun fan fiction sort of reason. There are some theories people have that I really do not see how they are coming to any conclusions from the manga for instance when words like DNA, Mitochondria, mutation, genetics, fairy dust, etc are used. At first I couldn't understand why people were doing it, then I realized it was giving them something to talk about and something to be creative with. I may choose to not join in on those theories, but at least now I understand the mindset behind them. This stat generation session may actually get some feed back in the future when another data book is released.

As for schools... :D. One of the big problems in America (where I live) is that teachers are not really required to perform in the same way students are. I had some great teachers, and many who couldn't have cared less. It is incredibly difficult to fire a teacher in America in general, though next to impossible in some states. I had one fantastic teacher back in highschool who taught math in college at one point in his life. The administration got angry at him because almost everyone in his college calculus class was passing. "This is a weed out class. You have to fail half your students." said the administration. "But they can all do what I teach them by the time the test comes." he replied. "Then make them do things you haven't taught them for their tests."

He didn't like that because his goal was to actually make sure people understood what was going on in his subjects. When he taught highschool he did things his own way even more. Unlike other teachers he had an opened policy about tests where if you did not like your score, you could take the test as many times as you wanted to get the score and grade you wanted and he would tutor you between attempts to make sure you understood the concepts. Not surprisingly his students often scored in the highest brackets in the nation for math exams. Not only that, but he was a really good guy and if students were struggling he would give them advice that often their parents would often not give them. Teachers can make a huge difference for good.

[Sordes Pilosus]

With more teacher's like that the world would really move forward in big leaps. That and the end of all religion and this world might be salvagable lol.

[chibamonster]

Lol. I don't see how religion gets involved in this discussion. That teacher was actually a very religious person as am I. Though completely different religions.

[iLney]

General guidelines for a good teacher:

A is the score of God.
B is the teacher's score.
C is for the best among his students.

I missed those days in such class. It was so much fun. If he taught us principle A, which many other brilliant mathematicians used to lead the some theories C,D and such, be sure that C,D will be in the test. :D But the good thing was he made us read hella lot of books and research or else failed miserably.

[Stream]

Sadly, from what I've seen, classes are more like this: :(

Here are the stats, memorize em. Here are the pages, read em. Here are the assignments, finish em. Here are the tests, take em. Here is my lecture, listen and take notes.

I mean, honestly, I don't think a whole lot of people like to have classes like that. Teachers do recognize that there's a problem when students become unresponsive, so they come up with novel interactive assignments like this:

Here are some pages: read 'em out loud in class. Here is a group assignment, do it with another person and check each other's answers. Here is a conversational activity, read the prompts to your partner and give the proper answer to the prompts. Here is a quiz thinly disguised as a game, try to get the answers right.

It's not just the teachers either. It's the books too!

The lesson plan ignores the students, completely. It never cares what kind of people they are, what they like to do, what and how it would or wouldn't interest them. It tells them to go with the flow. Most teachers I knew even tried to rebuke and shut me up because I was curious enough to actually ask questions, and it would derail their lesson plans. Lesson learned: Don't ask questions in class. The teacher doesn't like it. :upset:

AND THEY WONDER WHY I DONT LIKE CLASS. AND THEY WONDER WHY PEOPLE FAIL. Is it a learning deficiency? No! It's more like a teaching deficiency. The class is so boring and/or so annoying that they don't want to pay attention to the teacher, and if they're not paying attention to the teacher, they're obviously less likely to get it. The answer isn't to make them pay attention or to *ugh* try to punish 'em for not paying attention or to delusionally believe that eye candy or "interactive assignments" solve the problem. It's for the teacher to understand that THEY need to STEP UP TO THE PLATE and ACTUALLY START TEACHING and ACTUALLY START RECOGNIZING THEIR STUDENTS. :frustrated:

Sorry bout the ranting... I just... It bothers me, y'know?

[chibamonster]

Lol, there probably isn't an appropriate thread for this, but the topic interests me.

My favorite thing is when teachers say kids have ADHD or anything like that because they can't pay attention in school. Yet those same kids can focus on video games for days on end :D. Apparently they only have difficulty focusing when something is boring. I also like how you really cannot use most of the things you are tested on in school because they will never effect your real life. Even physics equations aren't that accurate; engineers have tables of data from actual tests performed because equations take too long and are too unreliable in any but the most simple cases.

Now, the schooling system is perfect if you have a certain skill set like my good friend does. It turns out he has a nearly photographic memory, so while everyone else is "studying" he just stares at the text book and memorizes whole pages. He doesn't use mnemonic devices or repetition through flash cards or any of that jazz. He just memorizes the important parts of the text book and ignores the junk so it takes him even less time because he doesn't care to remember stuff he doesn't need to, even though he could very easily.

And... uh... to tie this to the thread so it doesn't get deleted in the off chance admins ever visit the viper pit that is the claymore subforum; it seems the organization's test which teaches Claymores to ignore orders to kill their comrades and kill youma was lost on Clarice as she thought killing Galatea was her real mission. So even the organization's educational system has some massive holes in who graduates :D

[Sleepy Speculator]

I understand you guys and gals are still in education and so understandably upset about these things, but unfortunately part of the problem *is* the very concept of a competitive grading system that requires a shifting standard based on averedges, this is in fact an intentional component of marking systems, and unless you have a good/v.good educational establishment, your not likely to be getting a lot of money spent on ensuring that you aren't part of the statistical averedge. (That's as close to as on topic as i can get with why the gradings are as arbitrary in real life as they are in this thread)

Now can we get back to the topic on hand..

(p.s. if it helps any i was told some years after leaving school as a mediocre failure that my high scoring best friend who received home tuition thought i would do at least as well as him, so it just goes to show that there are many arbitrary factors to these things, and what one person thinks, or the establishment, or someone else etc... is as subjective as anything else, just like the stats on the guesstimates i posted and as high as they are there is often notation left on why they are relatively marked as such)

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

I miss my student days, I was one of those that never paid attention or studied and just read the thing the day before the exam and pass with the minimum required, then forget everything lol

[Vinak]

heh I was just like that, KillerYomaFromSpace.

I always did better on tests after cramming an hour before the test rather than doing proper studying :p

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

heh I was just like that, KillerYomaFromSpace.

I always did better on tests after cramming an hour before the test rather than doing proper studying :p

yeah, proper studying is a massive waste of time IMO

[Stream]

Screw the topic. This is a conversation worth having. Until someone takes this back on topic with something meaningful on Claymore (and I think we've exhausted most possibilities of that by now), lets just stay off topic.

Yeah I think some ADD diagnoses are just BS, although the most hilarious example that comes to my mind is from TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroperTales/AttentionDeficitOohShiny): "When this troper was diagnosed with ADD, he was too busy looking at the psychiatrist's bookshelf and had to be told again."

To be honest, I'm kinda curious how many people diagnosed with ADD really just stop paying attention to boring stuff earlier than the rest of us and instead start paying attention to something that's just more interesting.
Now, the schooling system is perfect if you have a certain skill set like my good friend does. It turns out he has a nearly photographic memory, so while everyone else is "studying" he just stares at the text book and memorizes whole pages. He doesn't use mnemonic devices or repetition through flash cards or any of that jazz. He just memorizes the important parts of the text book and ignores the junk so it takes him even less time because he doesn't care to remember stuff he doesn't need to, even though he could very easily.

I've done that when I could get away with it. While it is somewhat satisfying to barely pay attention, glance through the textbook, do a 10-15 minutes cram session (that's what you call it when you just try to go over all the important stuff in a short while, right?) before the test, and score 18+ (out of 20) on the test by doing that... Well, it still doesn't change that the class was just messed up to begin with.

[iLney]

From my obeservations, in order for the teacher to teach, the students must want to learn and vice versa. If that mutual link does not exist in the first place, things will mess up no matter what.

[chibamonster]

@Stream: That is actually the same attitude my friend has. It makes him very angry to have to jump through hoops, so what he does to compensate is make the university pay him to go :D. And they do. He is quite satisfied with that, and now he has actually discovered a field that really interests him which is pretty cool and something he never really expected to find. It's funny because he is extremely gifted at school in general, and he does not like it much, but that doesn't stop him from dominating the system. I asked his permission and I am going to base a bad guy off of him for one of my stories :D.

For myself on the other hand, I don't really have the discipline to jump through hoops even if it is not difficult. I need to learn to channel my anger like my friend does. Instead I tend to have a little bit too much attitude :D. Back in high school I actually failed my senior art final presentation because I "had a bad attitude about art" even though it was an absolute consensus that my portfolio was most impressive. Awesome.

And I don't think wanting to learn has much to do with being a student who wants to learn. Learning is not difficult, humans do it all the time. Just not with stuff that usually matters for school. Being interested in the subject for whatever reason is much more important than wanting to learn in my mind. I bet from memory you could wind off every single claymore in the series, and the exact progression of the plot and its implications on character development. And I bet you could write a pretty serious essay on it. I mean that is what we do on the forum. So obviously it is not that we do not have the ability to analyze stories, but how many of you used Cliff notes instead of reading the assigned books? Or failed tests on assigned books? Learning is one of the easiest things humans do; but many schools just make it as alien as can be to us. Well, I have more theory on the matter, but I'll wait till I set up my own school to see how it works out...

[iLney]

The point is it is very difficult to PUT the students into the classes suitable for them, while ,in many cases, even they themselves are not sure about their wishes. So I guess we must accept it as a process of trial and error, or we can cross our hand and wish for a great teacher who can pique interest in even the most indifferent of students. I guess we can't rely on that as a system. Most of the good classes I was in, the teachers knew that their students chose their classes because they wanted. That alone could greatly encouraged the teachers to make his lessons more interesting, and the students who wanted to be in the classes got inspired by that. As a result, the classes became a very enjoyable experience for both the teachers and the students.

But we have the system of "core" courses. I myself had to take a liturature class for the sake of it. My first teacher was very enthusiasitic, and somehow she thought that we students felt the same (she was young anyway). As a result, she ended up with talking about stuffs the we didn't give a rat about; for all we wanted was to pass the test. The tension started as the questions in the homeworks and exams were not in the book. It ended up ugly. In the next semester, I somehow wanted to know more about liturature. Guess what? I ended up with an "experienced" teacher for this kind of lit class. The liturature course literature turned out to be a "how to pass the liturature tests" workshop, which ironically was my wish in the previous semester. That class was over with my own frustration.

And there were classes in which I was interested a portion and didn't care about the rest. That particular portion might well be the only thing left in my mind after the course. But the point is "it's there". And from that, I can somehow connect to the other information the course provided. Sadly, the particular portion was the least focused one, and soon I gave up on it after so much information about things I didn't like was constantly fed during the rest of the course.

I guess the things in my examples are inevitable since we see education as a system. I'll stop my rant here.

[Droplet]

Personally, I believe that forcing people to study something that they're not interested in is against our human nature. So it isn't a wonder that people fail school. And it also doesn't mean that because people are stupid because of low grades.

Right now, getting a degree seems to be just a test to verify a future worker's patience in getting a job done that may at times seem very unpleasant.

People who got their dream jobs are fortunate. But for the rest who eventually get stressed out due to their shitty jobs, it's not wholly their fault. One could say that they should've done better at school but school itself isn't so motivating all the time, given the current system.

I'd like to give out suggestions on how to reform schools, but I don't yet know where to start.

[Ryuken]

@Stream: it seems like they are doing the stats for their own fun fan fiction sort of reason.

I would agree with you on that @chiba.:)

[kenro]

Clare still as of Ambassador chapter is very reluctunt to face Riful. Perhaps she still has nighmares of the last time? Even so, Numbers and Speed were indeed the key to defeating Agatha. Plus the element of surprise on the extraordinary level of teamwork with this group. How'd one girl put it?: practicing til we puked blood. or something?

But Claire, whatever the practice, however strong she becomes, cannot ever hope to defeat Prisc.
Unless...

Frankly, revenge has become irrelevent, not to mention impossible. The point will soon become there are two uncontrollable worldbreakers out there. The planet is/will be/could well be $#@.

Unless...

What are the odds Claire will willingly get caught up in Luci/Raphi awakening, as the only way to hope to controll the new creature, an only way to get strong enough to fight Prisc?

[Awakened]

What if Isley is the top Mib on the island?

We have Ruble saying that the boys go north and the girls go south. Isley is the one that in charge of the north.
We have Miria saying that the Orgs are the one making the yomas. So what if it’s Isley in the north that’s making the yomas for the Org by using the boys?

We also have super Raki.
Isley told him something about losing his humanity to get stronger. If Isley knows how to make yomas, he can easily make Raki into some experiment. Not a Claymore, but some hybrid. (Am still holding on to Raki yoki armor).

The war in the north can be easily explained.
The Org had a new toy, and wanted to test it out. Isley purposely sent his men to die.

What is in it for him?
He will be safe from any group on the Island. The only treat that he has is currently Riful. To me, all he cares about is his survival. He had the power to take over the Island, but he did not, why? He can't control Priscilla, but he can bring her along with him. If anyone attacks him, Priscilla would probably defend him. In no time, he could have taken out Riful, and the Org, but he did not.

Holes
Ok, there are some things that might make his alliance with the Org a problem for him in the future. If the Org reaches their goal, they can just send some of their supper Claymores to finish him off. So the benefit of him teaming with the Org will only be to his advantage as long as the Org haven’t completed their experiment. Taking out the Org when he has the chance is a much safer, but he has not done it.

Priscilla could have killed him, but he saw in her the opportunity to take out one of the AOs. Why did he stop at only one? If he is on the Org side there is a benefit in having monsters running around the Island. Any invasion by the D.o.D would be very costly.

Having to face tow AOs at once was not only a treath to Isley, but it was also a treat to the Org.
The Org’s policy before the war in the north was to only kill Abs when they have too, now they kill them on sight. Isley did the same thing with his men, sent them all to die. You might say that the Org killing Abs shows that they are not in bed with Isley. Remember what the Abs said before G7 saved the 3 claymores? He said the Org was hunting them down, so they stated grouping up. From that statement you can see that it’s the Org that’s actively killing off the Abs. The Abs are quietly feeding and minding their own business, when some group of Claymore make it their mission to seek them out and destroy them. They are not grouping up and heading south towards the Org. And if you remenber, It was Isley that sent that group of Ab south.

If they Org and Isley are in bed together. They could have planned the systematic eradication of Abs. Isley just used his men to give the Org the excuse to send countless Claymores to their death hunting Abs. Why would they do that? Because they are getting closer to what they want and they are starting to clean this up in advance.

I see Isley been in bed with the Org as a possibility. It would be a big surprise. All of Isley action so far has not treated the Org. Yes he sent his men to the south, but they all died without killing one Mib. If he is in contact with the Org, then he would have known about Alicia and Beth.

Isley supposedly had 3 enemies. The Org, Riful and what is now part of Racillia, forgot her name. He took out one of them, he could have rested and then finish the job. According to Riful, he could have, but he did not.

So my question is, why is he m.i.a, when he could have control of the Island?
His inaction, could mean death in the future, so why take the chance?

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

I have the theory that Isley may actually be a good guy

[MisterJB]

I have the theory that Isley may actually be a good guy
exactly how?

[Ryuken]

exactly how?

That goes double for me.:)

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

I don't know, I have the feeling that he is doing something for some kind of "greater good", I can't really say for sure that he is a good guy, but its a theory worth mentioning

so far what he has done

1- fool and sacrifice a LOT of ABs, (each one alive on their own for all eternity would have caused much more harm than just destroying a city that was also evacuated (Priscila alone destroyed 3 cities))

2- attack the org

3- attack Riful

4- Kill Luciela

5- Attacked Priscila when she was killing everything like crazy

6- Stopped attacking not when he was going to loose, but when Priscila changed her from and started to cry

7- stick Priscila to Raki to keep her from going berserk again

8- taught Raki how to fight, yes, he didn't eat him instead

in other words, he has done more good to that island than anyone else

I know that none of this proves anything, but its enough to make one think of that posibility

[NobodyMan]

Heh, as far as I'm concerned, if the next time we see him, he's a chibi. It'll be quite obvious that he is a good guy. If not, then it'll still be up in the air.

I have entertained the idea of Isley being good myself. Most of what he's done though, has been primarily for his own self-interest, except for picking up Raki. I'm still not exactly sure why he did it, perhaps it was a mere whim of his, maybe he saw a chance to use him to keep Priscilla calm and docile, maybe it was simply because Raki reminds him of himself when he was young, maybe a combination of all three. Most of Isley's deeds, despite mostly selfish reasons, did do more good for the island than alot of the Orgs work. :p

While I have some doubts about him really being a good guy, I know I'd like it if he was. He's one of my favorite characters, whether good or bad, that's for sure. :D

[iLney]

I don't know, I have the feeling that he is doing something for some kind of "greater good", I can't really say for sure that he is a good guy, but its a theory worth mentioning

so far what he has done

.....


May I add:
_Being a dumbass who despite the position of the 1st AO ever chose to reside in a godforesaken ice cap while letting Riful and Luciela get more juicy territory.

_Converting almost of hungry ABs at that time (males) into the dumbass league. :heh: while he himself hates to have company.

[Sleepy Speculator]

haha full props to you on that one, good call...

*sends some rep*

[MisterJB]

I don't know, I have the feeling that he is doing something for some kind of "greater good", I can't really say for sure that he is a good guy, but its a theory worth mentioning

so far what he has done

1- fool and sacrifice a LOT of ABs, (each one alive on their own for all eternity would have caused much more harm than just destroying a city that was also evacuated (Priscila alone destroyed 3 cities))

2- attack the org

3- attack Riful

4- Kill Luciela

5- Attacked Priscila when she was killing everything like crazy

6- Stopped attacking not when he was going to loose, but when Priscila changed her from and started to cry

7- stick Priscila to Raki to keep her from going berserk again

8- taught Raki how to fight, yes, he didn't eat him instead

in other words, he has done more good to that island than anyone else

I know that none of this proves anything, but its enough to make one think of that posibility

i think he only did those to get the south and if we get to details he didn't killed Luciela and because of that a much more powerful monster will be created by Riful

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

i think he only did those to get the south and if we get to details he didn't killed Luciela and because of that a much more powerful monster will be created by Riful

the intention is what counts

[MisterJB]

the intention is what counts

i knew you were going to answer that
well he is nowhere near as bad as the Organization

[Valerian Mengsk]

Isley also doesn't seem interested in killing Claymores, nor torturing them to the point of awakening, though that may just be another faucet of his disapproval of company.
He also doesn't appear to be interested in hunting Claymores or MiB.

IMO, Isley falls more along the lines of a Neutral badass that is willing to do either good or evil acts to achieve his aims.

[MisterJB]

Isley also doesn't seem interested in killing Claymores, nor torturing them to the point of awakening, though that may just be another faucet of his disapproval of company.
He also doesn't appear to be interested in hunting Claymores or MiB.

IMO, Isley falls more along the lines of a Neutral badass that is willing to do either good or evil acts to achieve his aims.
that's my point he just wanted to go get some sun in the south he wasn't even interested in chasing luciela to finish her off

[Awakened]

that's my point he just wanted to go get some sun in the south he wasn't even interested in chasing luciela to finish her off

If Luciela escaps whats the point in fighting her in the first place?

She would have eventualy regroup, or join Riful.

I beleave he was just to weak to finish her off.

[chibamonster]

Yeah, the Isley vs Luciella fight is the most evenly matched fight we have ever seen in Claymore. They couldn't even kill each other. You know how sometimes in an anime they stretch out fights so they have more material to show so they don't catch up with the manga? I'd love to see an animated Luciella vs Isley fight.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Yeah, the Isley vs Luciella fight is the most evenly matched fight we have ever seen in Claymore. They couldn't even kill each other. You know how sometimes in an anime they stretch out fights so they have more material to show so they don't catch up with the manga? I'd love to see an animated Luciella vs Isley fight.

that would have been interested, but what in my opinion would have been perfect for the last 3 episodes is an animated real continuation of the battle for Pieta where they all "die"

[MisterJB]

If Luciela escaps whats the point in fighting her in the first place?

She would have eventualy regroup, or join Riful.

I beleave he was just to weak to finish her off.

never tougth of it that way you're probably rigth

[Elandyll]

the intention is what counts

Mmmh, so what was his intention when he said to his AB's "Do not let as much as an insect alive in Pieta" ? Fun ? :twitch:

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Mmmh, so what was his intention when he said to his AB's "Do not let as much as an insect alive in Pieta" ? Fun ? :twitch:

well, he fooled all those ABs, so anything he told them may as well be part of his act, and he probably knew that it was going to be evacuated.

he may also be the kind of guy with good intentions but with a "the end justifies the means" philosophy.

[muk]

are there any stats on riful or isley?

[radioIzzy]

Jeez Galatea is tall. Anyone noticed that?

[Fenrir_valindri]

To the above two posts;

No to Isley + Riful's stats

Yes to Galatea's height (tallest Claymore so far, she is an athenian goddess after all)

[BishounoTeresa]

Jeez Galatea is tall. Anyone noticed that?

lol yeah, she's the tallest claymore so far, after that are Teresa and Irene. Lol Priscilla is the shortest claymore :D

[chibamonster]

Clare's pretty short too if I remember right. Though of course nothing compared to how short Priscilla is now. I wish we knew how tall Isley and Duff were in their human and awakened forms... I'm kind of hoping Raki is something like 2 heads taller than Clare at this point. Really just so Clare looks up, blushes, and then starts giggling uncontrollably because she speaks Japanese and that is what Japanese culture mandates. They don't have a choice.

[BishounoTeresa]

Clare's pretty short too if I remember right. Though of course nothing compared to how short Priscilla is now. I wish we knew how tall Isley and Duff were in their human and awakened forms... I'm kind of hoping Raki is something like 2 heads taller than Clare at this point. Really just so Clare looks up, blushes, and then starts giggling uncontrollably because she speaks Japanese and that is what Japanese culture mandates. They don't have a choice.

LOL I don't see that happening any time soon, Clare blushing rofl :heh:

[Walter]

The heights in databooks are pulled out of air (or other places :P

If you examine manga, you will see that all Claymores have same height (even Teresa and Priscilla in Marked for Death). Only exception is probably Galatea who does seem few cm taller than others.

As for Raki, he wasn't much taller than Renee when they talked.

If most Claymores would be around 170cm (seems like reasonable height), Galatea would be about 175-180 and Raki 180-185.

[Fenrir_valindri]

There are several panels were Claymores appear to be the same height, but in a few side by side panels the height difference can be notable.

Miria for example is slightly taller then Clare. Clare is also shorter then Yuma.

From volume 1 where she enters Raki's village, it was pretty clear Clare isn't very tall.

As for Priscilla, she spent most of the fight with Teresa either jumping at her, or being knocked away, her feet were almost never solidly planted on the ground, but I got the impression she was short as well.

Galatea was noticably taller then Clare and Jean, and check out the panel in chapter 74 where she stands in front of the Priest, she is tall.

[BishounoTeresa]

There are several panels were Claymores appear to be the same height, but in a few side by side panels the height difference can be notable.

Miria for example is slightly taller then Clare. Clare is also shorter then Yuma.

From volume 1 where she enters Raki's village, it was pretty clear Clare isn't very tall.

As for Priscilla, she spent most of the fight with Teresa either jumping at her, or being knocked away, her feet were almost never solidly planted on the ground, but I got the impression she was short as well.

Galatea was noticably taller then Clare and Jean, and check out the panel in chapter 74 where she stands in front of the Priest, she is tall.

lol I completely agree with what you said :)

[hell88]

Its because of Galatea's looooooooooooong legs.:love:

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

The Mirage is not a move to run away because it need great bursts of Yoki to work, it's more of a move to avoid attacks and Miria could only use it 30 times so Ophelia should be able to catch her

she can use it in one direction several times and is a huge bonus, besides, when they met, they were both already single digits, and in the databooks Ophelia's agility is A while Miria's is A+, so even without the youki brusts, Miria is faster. And to add more, in that moment she already half awakened.

I continued this discussion here because I don't want to keep spamming the image thread

[MisterJB]

she can use it in one direction several times and is a huge bonus, besides, when they met, they were both already single digits, and in the databooks Ophelia's agility is A while Miria's is A+, so even without the youki brusts, Miria is faster. And to add more, in that moment she already half awakened.

I continued this discussion here because I don't want to keep spamming the image thread

It was a good idea to bring the discussion here
This discussion involvs my two favorite characthers:)

I don't really trust these databooks because, according to them, that AB Katea ia almost as strong as Teresa.

Well, I doubt that Miria could escape, she would have much more chances than Clare that's true but still...

I mean, Miria got her (beautiful) ass kicked by that six-armed male AB while Ophelia easily killed that bird-thing AB that had a freaking huge mouth.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

It was a good idea to bring the discussion here
This discussion involvs my two favorite characthers:)

I don't really trust these databooks because, according to them, that AB Katea ia almost as strong as Teresa.

Well, I doubt that Miria could escape, she would much more chances than CLare that's true but still...

I mean, Miria got her (beautiful) ass kicked by that six-armed male AB while Ophelia easily killed that bird-thing AB that had a freaking huge mouth.

still... there is no hint anywhere that Ophelia should be faster than Miria, she has more strength, more youki, etc, but the fact that she is higher ranked doesn't mean that she should be better than Miria at everything, also Miria half awakened then as I said before, and not even the rank is real, because the number between them is Raphaela and she doesn't even count.

and the male AB was a very strong one, you don't know how it would be compared to the one Ophelia fought (yeah is big is ugly, but sux balls). and still, the only reason why it didn't win is because that AB was stupid and didn't completely ripped Ophi's head off, just twisted her neck, and then Ophelia won by a surprise attack when the other one believed she was dead.

[Walter]

Ophelia was caught by that AB's tentacles almost immediatelly and got her neck broken - because it didn't really kill her she then could surprise AB, because it thought Ophelia was dead. I still wonder if all claymores are impossible (or at least hard) to kill by breaking neck or if Ophelia was unusual.

[Newhope]

Ophelia was caught by that AB's tentacles almost immediatelly and got her neck broken - because it didn't really kill her she then could surprise AB, because it thought Ophelia was dead. I still wonder if all claymores are impossible (or at least hard) to kill by breaking neck or if Ophelia was unusual.

It's more than likely something only Ophelia could do or it's at least something fairly uncommen, if it was something commen to all claymoes the AB would have known about it seeing as she used to be a single digit claymore herself and would have made sure Ophelia was dead.

[FateAnomaly]

It is probably because of her yoki induce ability in that her bones are much more flexible. Her ripple sword is another example of her flexible physique. (snakelike?)

[MisterJB]

still... there is no hint anywhere that Ophelia should be faster than Miria, she has more strength, more youki, etc, but the fact that she is higher ranked doesn't mean that she should be better than Miria at everything, also Miria half awakened then as I said before, and not even the rank is real, because the number between them is Raphaela and she doesn't even count.

and the male AB was a very strong one, you don't know how it would be compared to the one Ophelia fought (yeah is big is ugly, but sux balls). and still, the only reason why it didn't win is because that AB was stupid and didn't completely ripped Ophi's head off, just twisted her neck, and then Ophelia won by a surprise attack when the other one believed she was dead.

Rubel said that the AB that Ophelia killed was a single digit and much more stronger than the one that Clare had fougth with Miria, Helen and Deneve

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Rubel said that the AB that Ophelia killed was a single digit and much more stronger than the one that Clare had fougth with Miria, Helen and Deneve

and so she kicked Ophelia's ass much faster than the one that Miria fought. the strenght of that one doesnt change the fact that Ophelia lost the actual fight. and I really doubt that getting caught was part of some plan

[MisterJB]

Well, returning to the main point, Miria should be able to put some distance between her and Ophelia but, eventually, Miria would get tired and Ophelia would catch her.

That female AB should have been on the top 5 maybe even a number 3

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Well, returning to the main point, Miria should be able to put some distance between her and Ophelia but, eventually, Miria would get tired and Ophelia would catch her.

That female AB should have been on the top 5 maybe even a number 3

thats only speculation

what about Rigardo?, Rigardo would kick that AB's ass and he wasn't stupid, he was a real killer and Miria held on her own against him for an entire chapter, while Ophelia lost instantly against that other AB.

you are still understimating Miria and overstimating Ophelia, why do you think there is such a gap between their powers and skills?, Ophelia is 5 (Raphaela shouldn't be there) and Miria is 6 and they both have enough strength to kill the other, so whats the use in Ophelia extra strength?, or her rippling sword that is not gonna hit?, I'd rather go with Miria's extra speed, mirages and intelligence.

so if we speculate I'd say that Miria would not only be able to escape, but would also be able to win in a fight against Ophelia too.

and remember that in claymore, being the best doesn't mean winning the fight, think about Teresa losing to Priscila, there are many more factors than just stats.

[Sordes Pilosus]

Miria held her own against Rigaldo... seriusly... have we read the same manga ??? Miria did not land 1 Single Wounding hit on Rigaldo, and she was rapidly being overpowered by a unserius Rigaldo that just adapted to Miria's speed by each passing second causing more and more dammage to Miria.. Seriusly, holding ones own in battle means not being overpowered. Miria was drasticly outmatched in that battle.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Miria held her own against Rigaldo... seriusly... have we read the same manga ??? Miria did not land 1 Single Wounding hit on Rigaldo, and she was rapidly being overpowered by a unserius Rigaldo that just adapted to Miria's speed by each passing second causing more and more dammage to Miria.. Seriusly, holding ones own in battle means not being overpowered. Miria was drasticly outmatched in that battle.

I never said she had to land any hit, and I never said she would win against Rigardo, but the diference is this...

Ophelia only lasted 4 pages against that AB

Miria lasted 13 pages against Rigardo (I'm not counting the pages that shows other claymores)

If you can't see that then its obvious that we havent read the same manga

just analyze ophelia's fight, she attacks that AB in the typical Miria way and still her blade touches the AB's neck, if you add there the extra speed of a real mirage instead, it would be game over for the AB, meaning that that AB was no way near as fast as Rigardo and she still catched Ophelia in her first attempt.

Ophelia against Rigardo wouldn't last more than Jean

[irvinethearcher]

Miria was number 8 when she joined ophelia to hunt hilda. In this hunt she half awakened and improved to number 6 because of it. Miria warned them about the numbers 1 to 5.
She said:
"Everyone of them is a monster" and that the power gap between 5 and 6 is huge.
So i think at this time ophelia was still stronger than miria. But IMO before pieta miria advanced further. Deneve hinted at that, so she could have become be a match for ophelia or even more during pieta.

[MisterJB]

KillerYoma are you serious?

Jeans was number 9, she improved a lot because of the Awakening but still Ophelia was number 4

Miria improved a lot before going into Pieta so, in Pieta she should be as strong as Ophelia was when she died.
If Miria fougth against that weird AB she would have been killed in seconds. Even if the figth was exactly the same as it was against Ophelia, MIria couldn't survive a broken neck.
Ophelia against Rigardo she would last as long as Miria.
The proof that Miria was weaker than Ophelia is that se didn't attacked her after the figth with Hilda. Why? Because she knew that she wouldn't stand a chance.

And I was speculating that the weird AB was a top five because she was stronger than Hilda for sure and Hilda was a number 6.

Also, if the Organization wasn't sure that Ophelia could kill that AB, they wouldn't have sent her alone to hunt him. Clare doesn't count, she was there to die

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

KillerYoma are you serious?

Jeans was number 9, she improved a lot because of the Awakening but still Ophelia was number 4

Miria improved a lot before going into Pieta so, in Pieta she should be as strong as Ophelia was when she died.
If Miria fougth against that weird AB she would have been killed in seconds. Even if the figth was exactly the same as it was against Ophelia, MIria couldn't survive a broken neck.
Ophelia against Rigardo she would last as long as Miria.
The proof that Miria was weaker than Ophelia is that se didn't attacked her after the figth with Hilda. Why? Because she knew that she wouldn't stand a chance.

And I was speculating that the weird AB was a top five because she was stronger than Hilda for sure and Hilda was a number 6.

Also, if the Organization wasn't sure that Ophelia could kill that AB, they wouldn't have sent her alone to hunt him. Clare doesn't count, she was there to die

Miria didn't fight Ophelia because thats what Ophelia wanted, so she kept her cool instead, she also didn't know that her skills would improve with the half awakening, also she didn't want to go rogue from the organization yet, so she planned her vengeance to take them all down later

and Hilda who was number 6 then said that Miria surpassed her speed, and Miria was nº17 and not even half awakened

also the gap mentioned from nº 5 to 6 was surely because the nº5 Rahpaela was really a nº1

It would make much more sense if Rubel arranged the whole meeting with Ophelia instead of the org.

[MisterJB]

Miria didn't fight Ophelia because thats what Ophelia wanted, so she kept her cool instead, she also didn't know that her skills would improve with the half awakening, also she didn't want to go rogue from the organization yet, so she planned her vengeance to take them all down later

and Hilda who was number 6 then said that Miria surpassed her speed, and Miria was nº17 and not even half awakened

also the gap mentioned from nº 5 to 6 was surely because the nº5 Rahpaela was really a nº1

It would make much more sense if Rubel arranged the whole meeting with Ophelia instead of the org.

Ophelia was special, it wasn't normal a Claymore that could kill single digits AB all alone, Miria himself said that Ophelia could kill Hilda allone.

Even if it was Rubel, then he was certain that it wasn't possible for Clare to survive a figth against Ophelia

And I think that she meant that the gap between number 6 and 5 was a general rule.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Ophelia was special, it wasn't normal a Claymore that could kill single digits AB all alone, Miria himself said that Ophelia could kill Hilda allone.

Hilda was a mummy, and she was holding back her youki
http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/73.2/26/

Even if it was Rubel, then he was certain that it wasn't possible for Clare to survive a figth against Ophelia

the discussion is not Ophelia vs Clare, is Ophelia vs that AB, and Rubel wouldn't care less if Ophelia died there, after all, she also knew about half awakening

And I think that she meant that the gap between number 6 and 5 was a general rule.

take Raphaela out of the equation, and Miria would be that nº5, I don't think there is such a rule, as it would be impossible to follow. the numbers in claymores change very quickly, and it would be impossible to control such a thing, and Raphaela nº5 seemed to be the most stable number (as its completely arbitrary and undeserved), together with Alicia and Beth

[MisterJB]

Hun? I tought it was Ophelia vs Miria. But now that you mention it, Suposing that it was Rubel who organized that hunt, he migth have wanted for Ophelia to get killed.

We can't take out Raphaela, she is part of the story. The best we can do is putt Raphaela as number 3, then Ophelia would be number 5. Still, there is that gap she was talking about between 6 and 5

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Hun? I tought it was Ophelia vs Miria.

you mentioned Clare not being able to survive in that encounter, and I just pointed that Clare is irrelevant in Ophelia's fight against that AB. when you said "Also, if the Organization wasn't sure that Ophelia could kill that AB, they wouldn't have sent her alone to hunt him", so in this matter, it was Ophelia vs the AB. and the fact that Ophelia survived was a miracle, all ABs like to cut limbs, shred claymores to pieces, and make a lot of holes in their bodies, this by far the least bloody kill any AB had tried with the exception of Ophelia trying to drown Clare

We can't take out Raphaela, she is part of the story. The best we can do is putt Raphaela as number 3, then Ophelia would be number 5. Still, there is that gap she was talking about between 6 and 5

the gap exist, but only because Raphaela is Raphaela, and not because of any general rule, she wasn't even in the ranks, they gave her a 5 just for the sake of giving her a number, as Irene said, she should have a nº1, and no you can't take her out of the story, but out of the power scale, yes, and out of the supposed "general rule" of a gap between all nº5 and nº6 too, as she was an exception.

[Fenrir_valindri]

It really falls to a matter of combat style.

Miria's incrediable speed is always an asset to her, and allows her to land a hit where others would be too slow. Against Rigaldo it allowed her to last much longer then any of his previous targets, Rigaldo didn't land a hit until Miria slowed down from exhaustion. Despite what Clare said, Rigaldo was the one one keeping pace, as he never landed a hit until Miria got tired.

Ophelia was an all-around powerful warrior, and I don't doubt her ability to defeat Miria pre-Pieta.
Her victory against the Awakened Being looked like a fluke more then a planned victory, but that AB WAS a single digit.
I doubt she would have faired much better then Miria did against Rigaldo however, she might have even done worse but only due to her combat style (all-rounder) vs Miria's (speed)


I would like to point out that Miria's strength had gone up significantly from when she warned everyone about Ophelia to Pieta. Everyone noted a significant improvement in her strength.

Clare leveled up to be as powerful as a #8, but Miria had quite possibly gained the strength to be equal to or above Ophelia's at that point in time.

[MisterJB]

[QUOTE=Fenrir_valindri;2073841]It really falls to a matter of combat style.

Miria's incrediable speed is always an asset to her, and allows her to land a hit where others would be too slow. Against Rigaldo it allowed her to last much longer then any of his previous targets, Rigaldo didn't land a hit until Miria slowed down from exhaustion. Despite what Clare said, Rigaldo was the one one keeping pace, as he never landed a hit until Miria got tired.

Ophelia was an all-around powerful warrior, and I don't doubt her ability to defeat Miria pre-Pieta.
Her victory against the Awakened Being looked like a fluke more then a planned victory, but that AB WAS a single digit.
I doubt she would have faired much better then Miria did against Rigaldo however, she might have even done worse but only due to her combat style (all-rounder) vs Miria's (speed)


I would like to point out that Miria's strength had gone up significantly from when she warned everyone about Ophelia to Pieta. Everyone noted a significant improvement in her strength.

Clare leveled up to be as powerful as a #8, but Miria had quite possibly gained the strength to be equal to or above Ophelia's at that point in time.[/QUOT

I don't think I could had anything to that.

Maybe just this.
Compare the current number 5 (Rachel) with the current number 6 (Renne) and you will see the gap, KillerYoma.
Anyway, all of the Claymore from this generation suck except Alicia, Beth, Miata and Dietrich

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Compare the current number 5 (Rachel) with the current number 6 (Renne) and you will see the gap, KillerYoma.

I don't see that huge gap between those two

[MisterJB]

I don't see that huge gap between those two

Altough Riful wasn't figthing seriously, Rachel was able to cut her body while Renne was beaten with two strikes

[chibamonster]

I will tell you the huge gap between Miria and Ophelia. Claymore 31 page 15 Rubel says, " North of here is a place called Gonahl. A villiage near a small castle. It is already in ruins. The target is a former single digit. The village was destroyed within half a day after she arrived. She's much stronger than the male you fought before. If you don't want to die, better give it all you got."

The Single digit AB praised Ophelia saying, "Too bad if you were just one step closer... but it seems I am stronger." Then after the attack (that should have killed Ophelia in the AB's mind) "The monster is you, not me."Then Clare's response, "The battle is over. Damn! That was quicker than I thought. She suffered almost no damage. I can't believe she could posses so much power."

4 Partially awakened Claymores, all heavily injured and left on the brink of death by the Male AB. Ophelia "barely suffering any damage" by Clare's youki sensing, which is better than any of ours, finishing a battle quickly against a "far stronger" opponent than the Male AB. Ophelia, by the AB's words, is a monster. Irene did not even kill her with a quicksword burst. This could be because Irene didn't want to kill her, but I somehow doubt that Irene would have problems killing something like Ophelia. Too bad we don't know what happened after Clare dropped unconscious, except that she managed to reattatch her hand before completely blacking out.

Ophelia >> Miria + Clare + Helen + Deneve

Not only was Ophelia fighting the stronger AB, but she was fighting Raki at the same time! We can get into the talks about how much stronger Miria was in Pieta, but at that point Ophelia had awakened and had Clare assist in her suicide, so there really is not much point. Miria didn't land a single hit on Rigardo, her ability just barely kept her alive.

Remember, Ophelia has a fetish for fighting AB's, so don't underestimate her bloodlust in battles. She lived for killing awakened beings.

[MisterJB]

I will tell you the huge gap between Miria and Ophelia. Claymore 31 page 15 Rubel says, " North of here is a place called Gonahl. A villiage near a small castle. It is already in ruins. The target is a former single digit. The village was destroyed within half a day after she arrived. She's much stronger than the male you fought before. If you don't want to die, better give it all you got."

The Single digit AB praised Ophelia saying, "Too bad if you were just one step closer... but it seems I am stronger." Then after the attack (that should have killed Ophelia in the AB's mind) "The monster is you, not me."Then Clare's response, "The battle is over. Damn! That was quicker than I thought. She suffered almost no damage. I can't believe she could posses so much power."

4 Partially awakened Claymores, all heavily injured and left on the brink of death by the Male AB. Ophelia "barely suffering any damage" by Clare's youki sensing, which is better than any of ours, finishing a battle quickly against a "far stronger" opponent than the Male AB. Ophelia, by the AB's words, is a monster. Irene did not even kill her with a quicksword burst. This could be because Irene didn't want to kill her, but I somehow doubt that Irene would have problems killing something like Ophelia. Too bad we don't know what happened after Clare dropped unconscious, except that she managed to reattatch her hand before completely blacking out.

Ophelia >> Miria + Clare + Helen + Deneve

Not only was Ophelia fighting the stronger AB, but she was fighting Raki at the same time! We can get into the talks about how much stronger Miria was in Pieta, but at that point Ophelia had awakened and had Clare assist in her suicide, so there really is not much point. Miria didn't land a single hit on Rigardo, her ability just barely kept her alive.

Remember, Ophelia has a fetish for fighting AB's, so don't underestimate her bloodlust in battles. She lived for killing awakened beings.

Thank you:)

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

I will tell you the huge gap between Miria and Ophelia. Claymore 31 page 15 Rubel says, " North of here is a place called Gonahl. A villiage near a small castle. It is already in ruins. The target is a former single digit. The village was destroyed within half a day after she arrived. She's much stronger than the male you fought before. If you don't want to die, better give it all you got."

The Single digit AB praised Ophelia saying, "Too bad if you were just one step closer... but it seems I am stronger." Then after the attack (that should have killed Ophelia in the AB's mind) "The monster is you, not me."Then Clare's response, "The battle is over. Damn! That was quicker than I thought. She suffered almost no damage. I can't believe she could posses so much power."

4 Partially awakened Claymores, all heavily injured and left on the brink of death by the Male AB. Ophelia "barely suffering any damage" by Clare's youki sensing, which is better than any of ours, finishing a battle quickly against a "far stronger" opponent than the Male AB. Ophelia, by the AB's words, is a monster. Irene did not even kill her with a quicksword burst. This could be because Irene didn't want to kill her, but I somehow doubt that Irene would have problems killing something like Ophelia. Too bad we don't know what happened after Clare dropped unconscious, except that she managed to reattatch her hand before completely blacking out.

Ophelia >> Miria + Clare + Helen + Deneve

Not only was Ophelia fighting the stronger AB, but she was fighting Raki at the same time! We can get into the talks about how much stronger Miria was in Pieta, but at that point Ophelia had awakened and had Clare assist in her suicide, so there really is not much point. Miria didn't land a single hit on Rigardo, her ability just barely kept her alive.

Remember, Ophelia has a fetish for fighting AB's, so don't underestimate her bloodlust in battles. She lived for killing awakened beings.

those points have been dealt in my previous posts, go read them if you care enough, because I'm not gonna repeat anything.

and lol @ the battle with Raki

[chibamonster]

I did read your posts killer yoma from space :D. I didn't see the points pushed cohesively, that is why I added my post to the mix. It depends on which flavor of Miria you are comparing too. I still think Ophelia dominates most characters in the series. The battles against the AB's that each of these characters faced are different too.

6 armed male AB = playing with the 4 partially awakened Claymores. "I'll give you a taste of true despair." Had he meant to kill them off the bat, he easily could have.

AB Ophelia fought = serious and meant to kill. Tried to annihilate Clare and Ophelia in the first moment she awakened. Clare used her youki hacks to dodge. Ophelia just out maneuvered her. This prompted the AB to ask, "are you stronger than the others?"

Rigardo = bloodlust. He was only aiming at strong claymores (meaning he was youki sensing), and didn't care about anyone else. Really Ophelia being able to fight Rigardo would have been both of their fantasies. They may have even stopped in the middle and kissed for a moment. Ophelia may have even been stronger than Galatea, and she is smart too, the problem was that Ophelia was CRAZY.

EDIT:

If it comes to a consideration of fighting styles we also have to consider that Miria does not want to kill other Claymores. Ophelia, on the other hand, knows Miria is half awakened and lives to kill AB's. Miria's best bet is to run very far, very fast. Oh, and Ophelia was CRAZY.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Are you trying to tell us Ophelia was crazy by any chance?

I'd agree with that, she was also crazy strong which is why it's surprising that Clare seems to genuinely taken up some of Ophelia's bloodlust for AB's, or that Clare could keep up with her hax ability to some extent. (though it's only defensive and lasts just as long as her stamina, which apparently sucks)

I had a re-read of the Ophelia and Clare fight and noticed a little oddity, though Clare was reading Ophelia's youki flows she completely jumped back from the first of Ophelia's Rippling sword strikes which earned her praise for having good 'intuition', yet she couldn't actually sense any difference in the flows/attacks as she then proceeded to get hit repeatedly, despite her sensing.

Ophelia - "hm pretty good intuition"
Clare - "what was that, that sensation right now?"
Clare - "but the most lethal thing is it's the kind of technique that i can't read in advance"

So how did Clare know that the attack was coming without sensing it? I think this intuition isn't actually part of her youki reading ability yet it saved her arse... Otherwise Ophelia wouldn't have commented on it, she damn well had a good idea that rippling sword couldn't be read with youki, yet was a little surprised that Clare avoided it anyway.

I'd also add Clare really got bad vibes from Ophelia's presence which also wasn't part of her yoki sensing ability. Now this may all be part of your standard shonen heroes sense of foreboding or whatever, but we know that at least one character (Miata) actually has enhanced senses/sixth sense, and all three share the commonality that they are Offensive claymores. It's got to the point where there's no way to tell how or what guides Clares' abilities as she no longer closes her eyes to read youki, and as she gets faster she's avoiding all sorts of attacks, (Riful for example). Just a thought.

My fear is that if Irene is still alive Clare may return that arm and ask Cynthia to ensure she gets her original one back.

[irvinethearcher]

So how did Clare know that the attack was coming without sensing it? I think this intuition isn't actually part of her youki reading ability yet it saved her arse... Otherwise Ophelia wouldn't have commented on it, she damn well had a good idea that rippling sword couldn't be read with youki, yet was a little surprised that Clare avoided it anyway.
I don't find it that odd. Clare simply sensed something changed in ophelia's yoki flow but it was simply out of her sensing abilities and her base speed to block ophelia's rippling sword.
Teresa could block irene's quicksword with her sensing which was far superior to ophelia's rippling sword so it was because of clare's lack of abilitie that she only could detetct ophelia's sword but couldn't do anything else against it.

rene did not even kill her with a quicksword burst. This could be because Irene didn't want to kill her, but I somehow doubt that Irene would have problems killing something like Ophelia.

IMO there was no fight between irene and ophelia after clare lost consciousness because we all could see how superior irene's sword was. Irene simply spared ophelia because she didn't want to kill a claymore but that probably wasn't the only reason. Remember, irene wasn't fit for battle anymore and it was probably only the curiosity of detecting teresa's yoki who motivated her to leave her hideaway. IMO it was simply half-heartedness who prevented irene from killing her. Ophelia panicked and fled. Irene had to take care of the injured clare and had no desire to chase after ophelia. After that ophelia screwed up and awakened perhaps angered by her own disability to do anything against irene.

[MisterJB]

I did read your posts killer yoma from space :D. I didn't see the points pushed cohesively, that is why I added my post to the mix. It depends on which flavor of Miria you are comparing too. I still think Ophelia dominates most characters in the series. The battles against the AB's that each of these characters faced are different too.

6 armed male AB = playing with the 4 partially awakened Claymores. "I'll give you a taste of true despair." Had he meant to kill them off the bat, he easily could have.

AB Ophelia fought = serious and meant to kill. Tried to annihilate Clare and Ophelia in the first moment she awakened. Clare used her youki hacks to dodge. Ophelia just out maneuvered her. This prompted the AB to ask, "are you stronger than the others?"

Rigardo = bloodlust. He was only aiming at strong claymores (meaning he was youki sensing), and didn't care about anyone else. Really Ophelia being able to fight Rigardo would have been both of their fantasies. They may have even stopped in the middle and kissed for a moment. Ophelia may have even been stronger than Galatea, and she is smart too, the problem was that Ophelia was CRAZY.

EDIT:

If it comes to a consideration of fighting styles we also have to consider that Miria does not want to kill other Claymores. Ophelia, on the other hand, knows Miria is half awakened and lives to kill AB's. Miria's best bet is to run very far, very fast. Oh, and Ophelia was CRAZY.

Ophelia x Rigardo, I like that:cool:

[Sleepy Speculator]

I don't find it that odd. Clare simply sensed something changed in ophelia's yoki flow but it was simply out of her sensing abilities and her base speed to block ophelia's rippling sword.
Teresa could block irene's quicksword with her sensing which was far superior to ophelia's rippling sword so it was because of clare's lack of abilitie that she only could detetct ophelia's sword but couldn't do anything else against it.

IMO there was no fight between irene and ophelia after clare lost consciousness because we all could see how superior irene's sword was. Irene simply spared ophelia because she didn't want to kill a claymore but that probably wasn't the only reason. Remember, irene wasn't fit for battle anymore and it was probably only the curiosity of detecting teresa's yoki who motivated her to leave her hideaway. IMO it was simply half-heartedness who prevented irene from killing her. Ophelia panicked and fled. Irene had to take care of the injured clare and had no desire to chase after ophelia. After that ophelia screwed up and awakened perhaps angered by her own disability to do anything against irene.

I would agree with that but it seems off because of Clare's personality, she definately was trying not to get hit and if she could sense a difference she'd choose evasion over trying to parry, since it worked first time around, it may be she had no space left because of that cliff but, as she herself says, it's not the sort of attack she can "read in advance". Though she knows where the blow is aimed, she can't read the flow/type of attack it is.

However the interesting instant is that first evasion, if she couldn't sense a difference then it would make no sense to choose and evasion over a parry (which she was already doing) unless she was getting some other sort of warning. If she could sense a difference then they'd be no reason for her to receive about 3-4 blows when she could choose evasion (unless that was also part of her lull Ophelia into belief of victory plan) but looking at the pain i don't think so.

[Gooral]

(...) So how did Clare know that the attack was coming without sensing it? I think this intuition isn't actually part of her youki reading ability yet it saved her arse... Otherwise Ophelia wouldn't have commented on it, she damn well had a good idea that rippling sword couldn't be read with youki, yet was a little surprised that Clare avoided it anyway. (...)
When Clare sensed that Ophelia was storing her youki in her arm to perform rippling attack she jumped away because she knew it would be some nasty thing. She played it in a smart way. Clare didn't avoid any attacks not because she couldn't sense them but because she couldn't block them. The way Ophelia attacked was way too irregular and it couldn't be parried unless someone had enough power and speed. Even if Clare knew where the attack would come and even if she held her sword in the right angle for standard swing, rippling sword would bounce off and penetrate her defences. If Clare knew the timing and practiced with Ophelia she would eventually become immune to this attack. The problem was that most people (every person?) that saw it were dead.

(...) Teresa could block irene's quicksword with her sensing which was far superior to ophelia's rippling sword so it was because of clare's lack of abilitie that she only could detetct ophelia's sword but couldn't do anything else against it. (...)
Again, sensing abilities' significance is being overestimated. Teresa couldn't block Irene's quicksword "with her sensing" or thanks to her sensing, she's not Galatea. Teresa's sensing was useless against Irene because of specifics of this particular attack i.e. multiple slashes at incredible speeds. It was even more difficult to block than Ophelia's attack that could be sensed. Even if Irene's attack could be sensed (which I doubt because of constant - read: always at maximum - flow of youki, which means there would be no changes, which means it would be impossible to predict) it was too fast and even if Teresa could predict that some slashes would be directed towards her right shoulder she wouldn't be able to predict how many exactly, when would Irene stop attacking her shoulder and went after her leg, etc. She wouldn't know at what angle she should hold her sword and at what distance she should stand to defend herself. There would be no room for offence if Teresa didn't have at least equal speed as Irene's.

[irvinethearcher]

Again, sensing abilities' significance is being overestimated. Teresa couldn't block Irene's quicksword "with her sensing" or thanks to her sensing, she's not Galatea. Teresa's sensing was useless against Irene because of specifics of this particular attack i.e. multiple slashes at incredible speeds. It was even more difficult to block than Ophelia's attack that could be sensed. Even if Irene's attack could be sensed (which I doubt because of constant - read: always at maximum - flow of youki, which means there would be no changes, which means it would be impossible to predict) it was too fast and even if Teresa could predict that some slashes would be directed towards her right shoulder she wouldn't be able to predict how many exactly, when would Irene stop attacking her shoulder and went after her leg, etc. She wouldn't know at what angle she should hold her sword and at what distance she should stand to defend herself. There would be no room for offence if Teresa didn't have at least equal speed as Irene's.

I don't know what was wrong about my statement. Saying that theresa blocked irene sittling relaxed in her chair with her sensing doesn't mean that she couldn't block it without it.
IMO there seems to be more than one type of sensing. There is sensing for detection like some kind of radar and there is sensing for reading the flow of yoki. Lune hinted in one of the last chapters that a claymore can be for example better in detection than reading and vice versa. Perhaps she lied to deceive riful but i think that her statement has at least some truth. Cynthia for example has the same detectionrange as clare but somehow i doubt that she hast the same talent in reading the flow of an enemy. But back to topic.
Only because clare couldn't do something against the rippling sword with sensing doesn't necessarily mean that theresa couldn't do anything against the quicksword with her IMO far more developed sensing abilities.
IMO yagi showed first how easy teresa could block irene's quicksword with sensing and after that he showed that teresa could even fight priscilla without it. The constant fullpower yoki release of irene's arm does not necessarily mean that teresa couldn't distinguish it and therefore read it. There must be something to detect because the arm moves. Therefore there must be differences in the flow which should be detectable. IMO priscilla's sword was faster than irene's quicksword but it could be that priscilla wasn't that easy to detect as irene and therefore theresa had a harder time on her. Both seems possible to me. And that galatea is better at sensing than teresa isn't something what is proofed. And if it was proofed i missed it. Priscilla had a natural talent to supress her yoki. She is the strongest AB known but even the current eye had to touch her to sense that. Galatea couldn't sense the ghosts either and in some way priscilla was like the ghosts. She could only sense the claymores on pills. Theresa could sense raffaella. We don't know how long raffaella didn't released her yoki before she met teresa but this could be a hint that theresa was even better at sensing than galatea.

I hope you understand what i want to say despite i have problems with things like times in english.

[MisterJB]

I don't know what was wrong about my statement. Saying that theresa blocked irene sittling relaxed in her chair with her sensing doesn't mean that she couldn't block it without it.
IMO there seems to be more than one type of sensing. There is sensing for detection like some kind of radar and there is sensing for reading the flow of yoki. Lune hinted in one of the last chapters that a claymore can be for example better in detection than reading and vice versa. Perhaps she lied to deceive riful but i think that her statement has at least some truth. Cynthia for example has the same detectionrange as clare but somehow i doubt that she hast the same talent in reading the flow of an enemy. But back to topic.
Only because clare couldn't do something against the rippling sword with sensing doesn't necessarily mean that theresa couldn't do anything against the quicksword with her IMO far more developed sensing abilities.
IMO yagi showed first how easy teresa could block irene's quicksword with sensing and after that he showed that teresa could even fight priscilla without it. IMO priscilla's sword was faster than irene's quicksword but it could be that priscilla wasn't that easy to detect as irene and therefore theresa had a harder time on her. Both seems possible to me. And that galatea is better at sensing than teresa isn't something what is proofed. And if it was proofed i missed it. Priscilla had a natural talent to supress her yoki. She is the strongest AB known but even the current eye had to touch her to sense that. Galatea couldn't sense the ghosts either and in some way priscilla was like the ghosts. She could only sense the claymores on pills. Theresa could sense raffaella. We don't know how long raffaella didn't released her yoki before she met teresa but this could be a hint that theresa was even better at sensing than galatea.

I hope you understand what i want to say despite i have problems with things like times in english.

That is true. Teresa felt Raphaela ,who was the best Claymore at hiding Yoki, while she was still a little girl.
Did we ever saw any hint that Galatea could feel Raphaela?

[irvinethearcher]

That is true. Teresa felt Raphaela ,who was the best Claymore at hiding Yoki, while she was still a little girl.
Did we ever saw any hint that Galatea could feel Raphaela?

The problem is, we don't know how long raffaella was on stealth mode. Perhaps it was short after her accident with luciella and she still had some yoki on her but i doubt that. If she was fully cloaked it would be proof that theresa was better than galatea because galatea was blind and had therefore driven her sensing to the limits of her own potential and still couldn't sense the ghosts. For her it looked as if agatha's legs just disapeared. And theresa was still a child and therefore she could even become better at it.

[MisterJB]

The problem is, we don't know how long raffaella was on stealth mode. Perhaps it was short after her accident with luciella and she still had some yoki on her but i doubt that. If she was fully cloaked it would be proof that theresa was better than galatea because galatea was blind and had therefore driven her sensing to the limits of her own potential and still couldn't sense the ghosts. For her it looked as if agatha's legs just disapeared. And theresa was still a child and therefore she could even become better at it.

We know that with the soul link, the sister that is gonna stay in human form has to completely surpress her Yoki. So she should have been on stealth mode long before Luciela went berserk

[irvinethearcher]

We know that with the soul link, the sister that is gonna stay in human form has to completely surpress her Yoki. So she should have been on stealth mode long before Luciela went berserk

It is a good point you make here, if you're right that would mean that theresa is better at sensing than galatea. But there are still some problems:
1. I don't know if yoki supression during soul link leaves traces of yoki on the supresing person.
2. What if raffaella did some normal one on one fighting and released yoki during that. Only because she was trained to do supression doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't release some times some yoki.

But IMO it seems to indicate that teresa was better than galatea. Irene said it clearly: Theresa was proud and lonely and allways in her own league she was an outlier, an anomalie in everything and probably more gifted than anyone in sensing too.

[MisterJB]

It is a good point you make here, if you're right that would mean that theresa is better at sensing than galatea. But there are still some problems:
1. I don't know if yoki supression during soul link leaves traces of yoki on the supresing person.
2. What if raffaella did some normal one on one fighting and released yoki during that. Only because she was trained to do supression doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't release some times some yoki.

But IMO it seems to indicate that teresa was better than galatea.

Rubel said that Raphaela was still surpressing her Yoki even after Luciela went to the south so soul link shouldn't leave traces of Yoki.
About the figthing, she was a number 2 with potential to number 1, if she was attacked by a Yoma, she should be able to kill him without releasing Yoki; if she was attacked by an AB... well, Abs aren't famous for hiding their Yoki so she should had been able to sence him and avoid the figth.
Also, Yagi-san would surely have drawn a figth if Raphaela fougth with anyone.
And, in my opinio she didn't ever released her Yoki because, judgind from Rubel's words, she still had some hope to bring Luciela back and if she couldn't then she would kill her. A proof of that is that not Luciela or even Isley felt that she was nearby while they fougth

[irvinethearcher]

Rubel said that Raphaela was still surpressing her Yoki even after Luciela went to the south so soul link shouldn't leave traces of Yoki.
About the figthing, she was a number 2 with potential to number 1, if she was attacked by a Yoma, she should be able to kill him without releasing Yoki; if she was attacked by an AB... well, Abs aren't famous for hiding their Yoki so she should had been able to sence him and avoid the figth.
Also, Yagi-san would surely have drawn a figth if Raphaela fougth with anyone.
And, in my opinio she didn't ever released her Yoki because, judgind from Rubel's words, she still had some hope to bring Luciela back and if she couldn't then she would kill her. A proof of that is that not Luciela or even Isley felt that she was nearby while they fougth

I don't know if it means to release no yoki at all if you have the task of supression during a soul-link even if you're not soul linking and fighting some abs for example.
We don't know how the org made use of raphaella. Perhaps she had to hunt AB's too and she released yoki during those hunts.
But my personal impression and what i know about the org is that they trained luciella to awaken and raphaella to supress from the start and that she did nothing else than supression. Probably she never actively released yoki in her entire life. But the galatea fans could see that otherwise;)

[MisterJB]

I don't know if it means to release no yoki at all if you have the task of supression during a soul-link even if you're not soul linking and fighting some abs for example.
We don't know how the org made use of raphaella. Perhaps she had to hunt AB's too and she released yoki during those hunts.
But my personal impression and what i know about the org is that they trained luciella to awaken and raphaella to supress from the start and that she did nothing else than supression. Probably she never actively released yoki in her entire life. But the galatea fans could see that otherwise;)

I'm a Galatea fan too, just not the biggest Galatea fan.
Well, that's my personal opinion too.

[Newhope]

Rubel did say she's never released her yoki weather you believe him is another matter.

I think there's a high chance Raphaella has never done a AB hunt, jugdeing from the twins Rafaela and Luciela where more than likely kept away from other claymore's and normal missions. When Rubel recruited her I think the same thing would have happened she would have been sent on solo missions and generally didn't mix with other claymore's just to stop people asking questions.

To be honest I have my doubts to weather yoki suppression is totaly effective frist there was the young Teresa senseing her then Irene seemed to be able to tell how strong she was to but how do you do that without been able to sense her yoki.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I believe there is a difference between not using Yoki, and supression, otherwise Teresa herself would have been extremely difficult to sense.

Rubel also didn't say that Raphaela's has never used Yoki, he said that she had been keeping her aura supressed for years, which can imply that she had used Yoki before, and thus the reason Teresa could sense her back then.

[Gooral]

(...) Irene seemed to be able to tell how strong she was to but how do you do that without been able to sense her yoki.
It's possible that Irene heard about Luciella incident and our cyclop favourite and her asking was just a last resort in order to disturb Raphaela or sth. Not likely, I know and that would mean Irene heard nothing about them and became a Claymore after the incident happened and no survivor spoke of it later (at least no one talked about it in front of Irene).
What I really think is that Irene figured out that warrior that managed to be alive for so long that his youki had disappeared and despite that she was still acting on organizations orders must be very strong and valuable to the org. What's more, Rafaela said: „I heard you'd lost your arm” and only then Irene said „As strong as you are why have you stopped at #5?” i.e. she knew that organization sent warrior sufficiently strong to kill her one-armed self but still one of the strongest warriors there are (stronger than Ophelia at her last moments, although I believe that with time Ophelia could surpass Irene). Of course it could be that Rafaela wanted to perform sneak attack but I don't believe it. She was too straight forward and pitied her. Probably it would be quite short fight anyway because Rafaela was so insanely strong that she was sure she could beat Irene without any youki release. /IMO

[irvinethearcher]

I believe there is a difference between not using Yoki, and supression, otherwise Teresa herself would have been extremely difficult to sense.
Good point. It would make sense that way.

[Awakened]

I don't think Raphaella released any yoki after her sister awakened.

1. She was on a mission to save or kill her sister. If she has her sister's soul in her, she might not do anything that will lower her chances of bringing back her sister. Her eye is a good example, she could have healed it, but she chose not too.

2. Ruble said something about she has been fighting for years without using yoki (I might have to look it up).

[Awakened]

My theory about Isley was that he is top mib on the island, but after reading chap 86, am thinking he might be on the human's side.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=56339&page=96

He first try to stop Priscilla from distroying the towns, he then sent all his men to die. He is also thinks of Claymores as trash.

If he knows that Claymores are just lab-rats then him trying to kill them all makes is reasonable. But in other for this theory to be true, Isley would have to stop himself from eating humans. We have never seen him eat a human.

The only people Isley have shown kindness to is humans (Raki, and try to protect the towns from Priscilla). There is one problem with this theory, Isley ordered his men to destroy the town in the north. A solution to that problem would be that Isley knows that the north is used for trading boys to the Org, so destroying it is in the best interest of the humans, an beside many of the humans had evacuated before the big fight.

If he kills all Abs and Claymores he will protect the humans in his own way.

Edit: Isley even trained Raki to kill yomas, there is no reason for him to do that if he plans on eating Raki in the future or just keep him as Priscilla's pet.

[Supermutant]

A solution to that problem would be that Isley knows that the north is used for trading boys to the Org, so destroying it is in the best interest of the humans, an beside many of the humans had evacuated before the big fight.

Trading boys to the org? Is that speculation or did I miss something?

[Newhope]

Isley ordered his men to destroy the town in the north. A solution to that problem would be that Isley knows that the north is used for trading boys to the Org, so destroying it is in the best interest of the humans.



Isley wasn't acting for good of those boys if anything he made things worse. Once a childs family is killed by a yoma it seems to be the norm to throw them out of the village what would happen if the slavers didn't find them they'd be easy picking for any passing AB or yoma, with the fear of yoma there's very little chance another village would take the child in so that leaves two options become a slave or have your guts eaten.

I know slavery isn't nice but in the claymore world it's probaly saved many of those childrens lifes. If Isley destoryed the slave trade most of the children would end up in the wild left to fend for themselfs where most of them would die.

[Awakened]

Trading boys to the org? Is that speculation or did I miss something?

Isley wasn't acting for good of those boys if anything he made things worse. Once a childs family is killed by a yoma it seems to be the norm to throw them out of the village what would happen if the slavers didn't find them they'd be easy picking for any passing AB or yoma, with the fear of yoma there's very little chance another village would take the child in so that leaves two options become a slave or have your guts eaten.

I know slavery isn't nice but in the claymore world it's probaly saved many of those childrens lifes. If Isley destoryed the slave trade most of the children would end up in the wild left to fend for themselfs where most of them would die.

Its just speculation, but if the Org makes the yoma's, they have to make them from something. Ruble said that the boys are sent north and the girls south. I guessing that the Org use the boys to make yomas, the girls to make Claymores. There must be a big demand for boy slaves.

[Newhope]

Boys where sent north to serve as a work force to make up for the shortage of people in the north, girls are sent east to become claymores.

[lakisar]

Isley wasn't acting for good of those boys if anything he made things worse. Once a childs family is killed by a yoma it seems to be the norm to throw them out of the village what would happen if the slavers didn't find them they'd be easy picking for any passing AB or yoma, with the fear of yoma there's very little chance another village would take the child in so that leaves two options become a slave or have your guts eaten.

I know slavery isn't nice but in the claymore world it's probaly saved many of those childrens lifes. If Isley destoryed the slave trade most of the children would end up in the wild left to fend for themselfs where most of them would die.

heh they better die fast in wild or by yoma than spend they whole life starving and being tortured as slave.

[Stream]

I just noticed TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/) has a page devoted to Claymore characters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Claymore), only it sucks. If you're bored enough to be reading this post, would you be bored enough to help out on the page? http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/959/rubelgp2.png

You know you want to...

[Supermutant]

I'd suggest that people stay away from TV Tropes unless they have time to burn. (I just spent about 30 minutes there just because I clicked the link) :heh:

[Sleepy Speculator]

This one's a what if kinda theory, but here goes...

What if Clare was promoted but didn't tell anyone? That is to say she literally became the #4 of her generation, but no-one knew.

I've probably said this theory before but i'll write it out again, hopefully a little clearer.

During the discussion regarding if it was possible Clare the #47 had eliminated the awakened #4 Ophelia a statement regarding just how inexact the power to ranking ratio was made. In other words the rank isn't everything and doesn't necessarily represent their yoki power alone, though this is the norm in the pecking order.

Also when Noel met Priscilla (and was unaware of her yoki) she seemed intent on showing her what it takes to be #2, that is to say if she could take it from Priscilla it was implied the rank was hers. Ilena of course was uninterested in fighting for the position and surrendered it. Also Rosemary a former #1 was forced to surrender her position to Teresa and it rankled her that this was done without a fight, going so far as to awaken in her anger/jealousy.

So it may be that Clare killing Ophelia entitles her to the #4 slot despite her lack of yoma power, because the rankings represent an overall level of ability as well. Interestingly there is also the hint that Ophelia tells Clare "since you will be fighting in my stead, i wont stand for it if you lose understood?" Which i always assumed to be a metaphor rather than literal line of speech. Whereas it can literally be a i'm dead your'e #4 now kindof thing.

Which leads on to the encounter with Galatea, Clare still hadn't contacted the org at the time and they were frantically upset about her departure, to the extent of sending first the #3 Galatea (high priority ignore other missions) and then the #5(ex #1) the only two higher ranking claymores that were active after her.

Galatea herself is sceptical as to why she's been sent after the #47, (if Clare was just #47 it's a waste of her time).

Now when Clare does get to Pieta, she is accompanied by the only person who would be present when Rubul gives her order Jean, who has a couple of funny moments with Helen et all. basically...

Helen "why does it look like your'e treating her as a higher rank?"
Jean "she saved my life, therefore it is hers"
Helen "but she's number 47"
Jean "i had my life saved by Clare, in what way are our ranks relevent"

Jean never refers to Clare as #47 in the first place, so she's not gonna reveal Clare's number and through the entire Pieta arc Clare never reveals her own number, only other claymores do based on Miria's roll call.

Jeans explanation of Flora's (#8's) superior sword skills even came with a "but" as she looked at Clare, and whilst Flora calls Jean over as a single number it seems Jean is hesitant about something. Whilst this is easily explained as hesitancy of leaving Clare's side, it could also be something else. (especially if Clare was #4 and standing there not letting it be known)

Miria didn't know Ophelia was dead and assumed during this time that the org had kept numbers #1 through #5 at the org's beck and call. And also knew Clare by name and rank personally. Flora calling Jean out implies they sorted it out amongst themselves. (i.e. there was no list of names and ranks.)

Flora also gave a longwinded lecture to Clare about responsibility because she finds the supposed to be weakest member of her team, fights at around the same level as herself, and the second most powerful member of Clare's team the #18 Lily is seen asking "amazing who is she?" after the first fight. (seems she didn't even recognize her own teammate:heh:)

For all this to happen all it requires is for Clare and Jean to keep their mouth shut and we know Jean would not go against Clare's wishes and Clare herself states...

"Pathetic, the strength, rank, and superiority or inferiority of techniques between fellow claymores... are such small things i would go as far as calling them worthless... killing as many awakened beings as i can that is the only important matter to me"

(Bit of an Ophelia-esque speech there, which would be ironic since Clare is behaving exactly like Ophelia with regards to her priorities not so long after killing her and fighting in her place/ with her purpose.)

[Awakened]

This one's a what if kinda theory, but here goes...

What if Clare was promoted but didn't tell anyone? That is to say she literally became the #4 of her generation, but no-one knew.

I've probably said this theory before but i'll write it out again, hopefully a little clearer.

During the discussion regarding if it was possible Clare the #47 had eliminated the awakened #4 Ophelia a statement regarding just how inexact the power to ranking ratio was made. In other words the rank isn't everything and doesn't necessarily represent their yoki power alone, though this is the norm in the pecking order.

Also when Noel met Priscilla (and was unaware of her yoki) she seemed intent on showing her what it takes to be #2, that is to say if she could take it from Priscilla it was implied the rank was hers. Ilena of course was uninterested in fighting for the position and surrendered it. Also Rosemary a former #1 was forced to surrender her position to Teresa and it rankled her that this was done without a fight, going so far as to awaken in her anger/jealousy.

So it may be that Clare killing Ophelia entitles her to the #4 slot despite her lack of yoma power, because the rankings represent an overall level of ability as well. Interestingly there is also the hint that Ophelia tells Clare "since you will be fighting in my stead, i wont stand for it if you lose understood?" Which i always assumed to be a metaphor rather than literal line of speech. Whereas it can literally be a i'm dead your'e #4 now kindof thing.

Which leads on to the encounter with Galatea, Clare still hadn't contacted the org at the time and they were frantically upset about her departure, to the extent of sending first the #3 Galatea (high priority ignore other missions) and then the #5(ex #1) the only two higher ranking claymores that were active after her.

Galatea herself is sceptical as to why she's been sent after the #47, (if Clare was just #47 it's a waste of her time).

Now when Clare does get to Pieta, she is accompanied by the only person who would be present when Rubul gives her order Jean, who has a couple of funny moments with Helen et all. basically...

Helen "why does it look like your'e treating her as a higher rank?"
Jean "she saved my life, therefore it is hers"
Helen "but she's number 47"
Jean "i had my life saved by Clare, in what way are our ranks relevent"

Jean never refers to Clare as #47 in the first place, so she's not gonna reveal Clare's number and through the entire Pieta arc Clare never reveals her own number, only other claymores do based on Miria's roll call.

Jeans explanation of Flora's (#8's) superior sword skills even came with a "but" as she looked at Clare, and whilst Flora calls Jean over as a single number it seems Jean is hesitant about something. Whilst this is easily explained as hesitancy of leaving Clare's side, it could also be something else. (especially if Clare was #4 and standing there not letting it be known)

Miria didn't know Ophelia was dead and assumed during this time that the org had kept numbers #1 through #5 at the org's beck and call. And also knew Clare by name and rank personally. Flora calling Jean out implies they sorted it out amongst themselves. (i.e. there was no list of names and ranks.)

Flora also gave a longwinded lecture to Clare about responsibility because she finds the supposed to be weakest member of her team, fights at around the same level as herself, and the second most powerful member of Clare's team the #18 Lily is seen asking "amazing who is she?" after the first fight. (seems she didn't even recognize her own teammate:heh:)

For all this to happen all it requires is for Clare and Jean to keep their mouth shut and we know Jean would not go against Clare's wishes and Clare herself states...

"Pathetic, the strength, rank, and superiority or inferiority of techniques between fellow claymores... are such small things i would go as far as calling them worthless... killing as many awakened beings as i can that is the only important matter to me"

(Bit of an Ophelia-esque speech there, which would be ironic since Clare is behaving exactly like Ophelia with regards to her priorities not so long after killing her and fighting in her place/ with her purpose.)

Interesting theory, Rubel could have given her the rank as an incentive to go to the North. If this is true, how will it affect the story?

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Miria knew the names and the ranks of everyone sent to the north so I suppose she had some kind of list, and Clare was still Nº47

since nothing indicates that Clare was promoted, and since she doesn't belong to the organization anymore, it makes the whole matter irrelevant.
I can say that she wasn't promoted. Why would they promote anyone when they are sending them to the north? they already placed them all into the "deceased" category even before the battle begin?

Also, the organization didn't know that it was Clare who killed Ophelia, they almost discarded that posibility.

[Sleepy Speculator]

:p i did say it was a theory just for fun, but there is a relevence, and that is for the purposes of exposing Clare's filthy little secrets and the importance/unimportance of various warriors.

When Rubul tells Clare about the mission in Pieta he says that #7 and some low ranked warriors died... in other words any warrior that isn't a single digit is pretty much unimportant. Galatea goes further saying that low rankers such as Jean and Clare shouldn't survive an encounter with an AO, when Jean is a single digit, and yet there may have been a bit of hesitation at the idea of fighting them. (by which i mean the story shows that Jean and Clare nearly killed Duff a feat which Galatea alone couldn't manage.)

When the modern warriors read reports of Pieta, which i assume they have some, and Renee at least may have been observing it (according to Galatea's assumption), they aren't gonna care much about the 20 or so regular claymores (beyond the horror of attrition) but go... o wow 3 to 4 single digits or so snuffed it at once. And the current generation will be composed of warriors who came into service around that time or served with the warriors that didn't go to Pieta. (for an example of how strong a 3 single digit hunting team would be look at the Dietrich/Helen/Deneve smack down on the nameless Ab, or the Clare/Cynthia/Yuma massacre of an Ab)

If Dietrich or any other claymore knows stuff about Pieta and assume that the leader at the time wasn't #6 but a #4 and ask any of the ghosts about it, then things will get awkward. Specifically because Clare hasn't revealed that she fought with and killed Ophelia, that she took an arm and technique from Ilena (ex #2) and why Ilena knows her, and the whole Teresa as donor thing.

I get the feeling that Ophelia was lined up for the chopping block that was Pieta (she was too mentally unstable/murderous and would've asked for the chance to fight Ab's anyway), Clare wiping out another Claymore (albeit awakened) and then disappearing makes it look like she was guilty of something, whereas Rubul knows why she went AWOL, none of those in the meeting mention Raki. End result is when they get her back she's gotta do Ophelia's share of the work, especially if they operate a policy of fight it out for the number slot. Which technically Clare and Ophelia did. (unwittingly)

Rosemary "having had to yield the rank of number 1 to you without even a fight... i just couldn't leave it at that."

Ilena "if you have a problem with it take the number 2 slot yourself"

in fact she re-iterates this line a couple of pages later

Ilena "like i said if you have a problem with it take the number 2 spot yourself"
Noel "that's fine with me.... i'll show you what it takes to be number two"

And despite Ilena's placcid demeanour Sophia the number 3 feels the need to make a comment like this...

Sophia" ... impressive. no one doubts your'e number two",

yet she's constantly arguing with #4 Noel over which of them has the right to be #3.

Clare's the sort who wouldn't care about promotion, she's more likely to be enticed by the idea of fighting Ab's or looking for Raki, in fact the complete absence of her declaring her rank is abit suspicious, considering her proximity to so many other claymores, also there's no indication Miria had any sort of list, but she did know Clare personally and low rankers are seldom survivors let alone promoted.

Renee "If any of the low ranking soldiers were to have gone up in rank, i'm sure they would be widely spoken about but not in this case...therefore all i can think of is that she must not belong to the organisation anymore...or to put it simply she can't possibly be alive anymore... soldiers are replaced all the time, especially the low ranks hardly any of them survive."

Now if Clare did have Ophelia's slot (at the last minute) it's upto her to say it to all the others in the usual name and rank introductions, and the only other claymores that would know at the time would be Jean and Raphealla. Raphealla never went to Pieta, and Jean wouldn't talk about it *if* it was the case.

For the argument of a list and how Miria would know the names and ranks of all the claymores present, she would know alot of them from team hunts and so would Flora and Jean, but look at Clare's introducion in her first/second team hunt.

Miria "last time you were too fast this time you're too slow, you have been busy"
Miria "to start with i want to hear everyone's name and rank"

Second time Miria's met Clare and in neither instance did she have a name or rank to even put to Clare's face, despite probably reporting her for insurbordination. And despite the fact that she already knew Helen and Deneve and had been sitting with them for a week or so, she asked the question anyway.
So where was her list that time?(easy answer there wasn't one)

Or howabout Clarice's intro where Nina the #9 knows she's been sent a replacement but has to ask...

Nina "cold? what's your'e number? take off your hood and show your face!"

guess she didn't get a list either. :(

And although it's ambiguous you can read a funny sort of message in the way Rubul says

"exterminating those awakened beings will be your task this time...of course this is not something we can send just one or two people to do, which means you will be part of a task force"

not all of the claymores knew the situation in Pieta yet when Clare goes there, she does so with knowledge equal to Miria's, even in the cave it's basically Miria and Clare comparing notes, with Helen/Deneve/Jean listening.

[Awakened]

It's possible, I can find any holes in you theory.:D

[Sleepy Speculator]

I forgot to add the question of rank and pecking order amongst the ghosts, it's relevent enough that it's sparked many an argument on these forums, and can even be seen in a conversation between Helen and Deneve over which would win in a fight. (ie which one deserves to be #1 amongst them). The ghosts are pretty much following there old number order with the exception of the anomaly that is Clare, all the ghosts *know* she's right up there with Miria, yet they are stuck trying to figure out where she stands in comparison to Miria and the would be second in command Cynthia. because the numbers were something like this

Miria #6
Cynthia #14
Deneve #15
Helen #22
Tabitha #31
Yuma #40
Clare #47

But even at the start of Pieta she's more fitting of the #7 rank than the #47. By the end of Pieta it's implied there are two 'lights' that are far stronger than the others and it is they that are the last to fall. We know for certain that Cynthia fell before the others and Zelda? didn't survive at all, which leaves only Helen, Deneve and Clare as contenders, for being that second light.

*If* Clare had concealed her rank then it kicks off a whole other round of questions regarding who should be in charge. Cynthia already decided not to follow Miria's orders to the letter because of Clare, and Helen shouted to Deneve that she didn't care about Miria or Deneve's orders either. Yuma seems loyal to Clare, and Tabitha to Miria, so they may as well be split down the middle.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think the way the Ghosts act is more in line with the fact they don't care about Rank anymore, they are just following their own whims.

Helen is a troublemaker as usual, and Deneve tags along with her.

Clare does what she wants as always, nothing new here; her temper seems better though.

Yuma respects Clare, but is thankful to everyone else as well.

Tabitha is a devout believer in Miria and most likely not because of her strength but rather because of her ability as a leader, similar to Yuma's situation, just more focused on Miria.

Cynthia is just following her own beliefs and judgment, but she respects everyone's independence, including Clare's; but obviously understands the wisdom in Miria's decision.

Miria still acts as the leader for all of them, but is obviously willing to let them off the leash. (As proven by allowing them to separate in the first place, albeit with safety measures) I don't think this is just because of her former rank or current strength, but rather because she was responsible for saving their lives in the first place and because of her leadership abilities.

[Awakened]

I think the way the Ghosts act is more in line with the fact they don't care about Rank anymore, they are just following their own whims.

Helen is a troublemaker as usual, and Deneve tags along with her.

Clare does what she wants as always, nothing new here; her temper seems better though.

Yuma respects Clare, but is thankful to everyone else as well.

Tabitha is a devout believer in Miria and most likely not because of her strength but rather because of her ability as a leader, similar to Yuma's situation, just more focused on Miria.

Cynthia is just following her own beliefs and judgment, but she respects everyone's independence, including Clare's; but obviously understands the wisdom in Miria's decision.

Miria still acts as the leader for all of them, but is obviously willing to let them off the leash. (As proven by allowing them to separate in the first place, albeit with safety measures) I don't think this is just because of her former rank or current strength, but rather because she was responsible for saving their lives in the first place and because of her leadership abilities.

Clare is also responsible for saving their lives. Miria did the planing Clare did the work.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Clare didn't do all of the work, and without Miria's plan everyone would have died even with Clare's intervention. Everyone contributed to the survival plan to some extent, but without the survival plan no one would have made it out at all.

Clare is certainly responsible for saving Miria's life, and likely Helen's as well, but that doesn't mean she was the biggest reason for any of them surviving.

[Ryuken]

Clare didn't do all of the work, and without Miria's plan everyone would have died even with Clare's intervention. Everyone contributed to the survival plan to some extent, but without the survival plan no one would have made it out at all.

I don't know @Fenrir, we all know that she would have to survive even with or without a plan. She is the main character of the series you know. This is of course no offense to Miria.:)
Clare is certainly responsible for saving Miria's life, and likely Helen's as well, but that doesn't mean she was the biggest reason for any of them surviving.

What would be the biggest reason then, in your opinion?:) I think she had seen too many caring and loved ones die in front of her and there was no way that she was going to let it all happen again, weather it be Miria, Helen or any other of her claymore friends. I think this is the thing that rocked her, to her core, during that fight with the lion king.:)

[Fenrir_valindri]

Lol, if Clare was the sole survivor of the battle of Pieta she would have had to awaken or abandon her friends, neither of which is a choice for the Main character; unless you want the "Bad Ending."

Clare being the main character saves her quite often, but that doesn't mean we should assume she would survive anything, that would be ignoring the story and just inserting (bad) plot devices to explain everything away.

The biggest reason anyone survived the battle of the north was Miria's plan. If everything went the same except without the pill plan, everyone would be dead.
If the pill plan existed but Clare wasn't; there would still probably be survivors (probably not as many, but I said that already)
If Miria's plan didn't exist they all die anyway, even with Clare around.

[Sleepy Speculator]

I think the way the Ghosts act is more in line with the fact they don't care about Rank anymore, they are just following their own whims.

Helen is a troublemaker as usual, and Deneve tags along with her.

Clare does what she wants as always, nothing new here; her temper seems better though.

Yuma respects Clare, but is thankful to everyone else as well.

Tabitha is a devout believer in Miria and most likely not because of her strength but rather because of her ability as a leader, similar to Yuma's situation, just more focused on Miria.

Cynthia is just following her own beliefs and judgment, but she respects everyone's independence, including Clare's; but obviously understands the wisdom in Miria's decision.

Miria still acts as the leader for all of them, but is obviously willing to let them off the leash. (As proven by allowing them to separate in the first place, albeit with safety measures) I don't think this is just because of her former rank or current strength, but rather because she was responsible for saving their lives in the first place and because of her leadership abilities.

I don't think anyone would have walked out even with that clever plan if Rigardo was still alive. Clare took out the leadership and co-ordinator of that Ab army, it's not just a matter of strength choosing who survives, most of the survivors were the one's who were still standing after Rigardo snuffed it.

Post Rigardo survivors

-Miria
-Cynthia
-Helen
-Deneve
-Clare

that's 5 out of 6 claymores that were surrounded on all sides by Ab's, contrast that with the pre Rigardo casualties, 15 out of 17 didn't get up again, and the two that did Yuma and Tabitha were both on Miria's team. I know this is likely to upset the ardent and blind Miria worship, but without the captains those teams fell apart, and the only team captain to survive was Miria *because* of Clare and Helen/Deneve.

That aside, they (the ghosts) are pretty much following their old rank order. Yuma accompanies Clare because of Deneve's orders, Helen says pretty much that she's rebelling against Miria and Deneve's orders... Cynthia and Yuma follow Clare initially because of Miria's order to, how is any of this not exactly following their old rank? (i can be pedantic and provide the quotes if you don't believe me)

Miria #6> Cynthia#14 > Deneve #15> Helen#22> Yuma#40

The problems as i stated are where Clare fits in with Miria and Cynthia despite apparently being #47, Cynthia can't enforce discipline on behalf of Miria when it's likely Miria herself can't enforce it, and Clare's priorities blatently aren't the same as Mirias.

@fenrir
please don't take offence but...
I don't mind what you say, but it's just so coloured like the pint is definately half empty style of statement that i want to deconstruct your entire post

"Miria still acts as the leader for all of them, but is obviously willing to let them off the leash. (As proven by allowing them to separate in the first place, albeit with safety measures) I don't think this is just because of her former rank or current strength, but rather because she was responsible for saving their lives in the first place and because of her leadership abilities"

'Leader for all?' as i recall Clare instigated the return to the southlands, Miria didn't suddenly just decide oh the training session is over let's go south.

'Leash?' i could be wrong but since the others pretty much followed Clare south, then if she had decided to go West ie. follow her biggest priority to find Raki which she headed south to do anyway in the first place, then Miria has to decide how to handle that situation. It would be pointless for Clare to search for 7 years for clues, and then get to Rabona and go "ya know what i changed my mind i'll just do whatever Miria wants"

'safety measure?' haha she's so 'trusting' of Clare that she sends 2 claymores with Clare as opposed to just letting Helen be accompanied by Deneve, (and look at the crap storm they've set off). Tabitha is out of the picture because she's Miria's aide, which leaves only Cynthia and Yuma to send in the first place, besides Helen would've only encouraged Clare, and Deneve would likely come to blows.

'just' nothing tends to be just a just in claymore anyway i agree entirely, but i just can't be all positive about somethign without seeing drawbacks as well.

For example your'e post by highlighting only postive points contradicts itself, you say that you think the ghosts are acting on whim, which is a 'laissez-faire' style of leadership at the start of the post and then near the end finish up with a how wonderful it is that Miria lets them off of the leash, which implies by contrast that she employs a rather 'autocratic' form of leadership. I won't bother posting definitions, but the intelligent and planning Miria is hardly whimsical.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I don't think anyone would have walked out even with that clever plan if Rigardo was still alive. Clare took out the leadership and co-ordinator of that Ab army, it's not just a matter of strength choosing who survives, most of the survivors were the one's who were still standing after Rigardo snuffed it.

Post Rigardo survivors

-Miria
-Cynthia
-Helen
-Deneve
-Clare


Out of the people you listed Clare was only responsible for saving 2 of them, not counting herself. Rigaldo was only targeting the leaders and was completely uninterested in killing everyone else. The only reason he was going to kill Helen was because she was carrying the unconscious Miria around.

The people who survived were determined purely by chance after a certain point. Yuma, Cynthia, Tabitha, and Deneve would have likely still survived either way.


that's 5 out of 6 claymores that were surrounded on all sides by Ab's, contrast that with the pre Rigardo casualties, 15 out of 17 didn't get up again, and the two that did Yuma and Tabitha were both on Miria's team. I know this is likely to upset the ardent and blind Miria worship, but without the captains those teams fell apart, and the only team captain to survive was Miria *because* of Clare and Helen/Deneve.

Why even bring this point up? This doesn't even have anything to do with what I am talking about. I already said (three times now) that Miria only survived because of Clare's intervention. Your completely ignoring the point I am making here. Which is, in case you missed it, that none of them would have survived without Miria's plan.

That aside, they (the ghosts) are pretty much following their old rank order. Yuma accompanies Clare because of Deneve's orders, Helen says pretty much that she's rebelling against Miria and Deneve's orders... Cynthia and Yuma follow Clare initially because of Miria's order to, how is any of this not exactly following their old rank? (i can be pedantic and provide the quotes if you don't believe me)

Miria #6> Cynthia#14 > Deneve #15> Helen#22> Yuma#40

Yes, but you guys make it sound like they are blindly clinging to the old ranking system (determined by strength) instead of following their own system; which basically revolves around following Miria's plan (for 7 years infact) to survive. More recently they left the North due to Clare's decision to leave, and Miria's decision to go with her. (Thus avoiding a group split)

The problems as i stated are where Clare fits in with Miria and Cynthia despite apparently being #47, Cynthia can't enforce discipline on behalf of Miria when it's likely Miria herself can't enforce it, and Clare's priorities blatently aren't the same as Mirias.


How is this a problem? Your assuming that Clare has ever listened to anyone's orders in the first place. Your acting like Clare is leading some sort of rebellion against a Tyrannical Leader, when it really is just Clare acting as usual and everyone going through to motions.

@fenrir
please don't take offence but...
I don't mind what you say, but it's just so coloured like the pint is definately half empty style of statement that i want to deconstruct your entire post

"Miria still acts as the leader for all of them, but is obviously willing to let them off the leash. (As proven by allowing them to separate in the first place, albeit with safety measures) I don't think this is just because of her former rank or current strength, but rather because she was responsible for saving their lives in the first place and because of her leadership abilities"

'Leader for all?' as i recall Clare instigated the return to the southlands, Miria didn't suddenly just decide oh the training session is over let's go south.

Of course Clare was the reason everyone went South, I never once denied that, but that doesn't change that everyone still sees Miria as the leader figure (bar Clare, but she hasn't respected authority since the beginning of this Manga), even rebellious people like Clare/Helen/Deneve still respect Miria as a leader, even when they choose to disregard her orders.

'Leash?' i could be wrong but since the others pretty much followed Clare south, then if she had decided to go West ie. follow her biggest priority to find Raki which she headed south to do anyway in the first place, then Miria has to decide how to handle that situation. It would be pointless for Clare to search for 7 years for clues, and then get to Rabona and go "ya know what i changed my mind i'll just do whatever Miria wants"

Miria allowed the rest of the Ghosts to do as they wish, while Clare is, and always will be most likely, beyond anyone's ability to order around; the rest of the Ghosts follow her lead.

'safety measure?' haha she's so 'trusting' of Clare that she sends 2 claymores with Clare as opposed to just letting Helen be accompanied by Deneve, (and look at the crap storm they've set off). Tabitha is out of the picture because she's Miria's aide, which leaves only Cynthia and Yuma to send in the first place, besides Helen would've only encouraged Clare, and Deneve would likely come to blows.

The safest decision considering the circumstances. Much better then letting Clare wander off on her own anyway. What would you recommend Miria do to try to ensure Clare stays out of trouble, much less Helen and Deneve?


'just' nothing tends to be just a just in claymore anyway i agree entirely, but i just can't be all positive about somethign without seeing drawbacks as well.

Everything has drawbacks, reality (and most fiction) always had trade offs.


For example your'e post by highlighting only postive points contradicts itself, you say that you think the ghosts are acting on whim, which is a 'laissez-faire' style of leadership at the start of the post and then near the end finish up with a how wonderful it is that Miria lets them off of the leash, which implies by contrast that she employs a rather 'autocratic' form of leadership. I won't bother posting definitions, but the intelligent and planning Miria is hardly whimsical.

Your acting like I said there was no leadership order in the Ghosts at all, but I simply stated that they aren't following the Organization's ranking system, they are following their own system. Just because the people involved previously held those ranks doesn't mean they are still focused upon them.

"Leash" is still an appropriate term here because any system were you follow someone's leads effectively "leashes" you to their decisions and orders.

When Miria declared they could go take care of some unfinished business as long as they travel in small groups, this was effectively a loosening of that "leash." or responsibility if you prefer, to the group.

She even gave them the option of not coming back if they wished, if the Ghosts didn't see Miria as a leader there would be no point in saying any of this, the Ghosts would just do what they wanted anyway. (Much like Clare already does)

You and several others have stated that Clare throws a "wrench" into the old ranking system by being higher up then her previous rank would indicate. I merely stated that this isn't a surprise considering they aren't forced to follow the Organization's way of doing things anymore.

-------

Don't know if you intended it Sleepy, but your post came off as way too aggressive considering the triviality of what we are discussing here. :eyebrow:

[Awakened]

Clare didn't do all of the work, and without Miria's plan everyone would have died even with Clare's intervention. Everyone contributed to the survival plan to some extent, but without the survival plan no one would have made it out at all.

Clare is certainly responsible for saving Miria's life, and likely Helen's as well, but that doesn't mean she was the biggest reason for any of them surviving.

Clare is also responsible for saving their lives. Miria did the planing Clare did the work.

I said Clare was also responsible, not that she did all of it by herself.
Deneven would have died, because she did not play dead after she got injured.
Clare directly saved both Miria and Helen.

If Miria had died what are the chances the 3 none partial awaken Claymores would have survived on their own? They had to stay out of sight of the Org, and at the same time be strong enough to kill an Ab. An Ab hunting group usually have 4 Claymores, one of them single digit. If the fab4 had died the three remaining survivors would not be able to kill a single Ab.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Mistake on my part Awakened, I just took issue with the second part of your statement. Implied to me that Clare did all the heavy lifting and Miria had nothing to do with it other then the initial plan, which I don't see as the case.

---------

The 3 "normals" could have potentially survived if they just stayed in hiding, and I expect Deneve was pretty likely to survive as well. But their combat effectiveness would indeed be below what it would take to defeat any decent AB, so it would mostly be cloak and dagger (mostly cloak).

I think if they were content in keeping low they could have survived, but they likely would not have accomplished much other then surviving, unlike the present Ghosts, who not only survived but became far stronger and are now preparing to topple the Organization.

---------

Edit: Of course that is just how I see things, you don't have to agree. :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I don't think the org gave Clare a promotion, because 1) it would create a plot hole. That is to say Rubel is a DoD Agent, and he is trying to keep the existence of Half Awakeneds from the org. Galatea still refers to Clare as #47 upon their Reunion. 2) Clare was considered AWOL at the time. Do we even know that Rubel told the org that he found Clare? Where does Rafaela loyalty lie with; the org or Rubel? It would seem to me that Rafaela should have no love for the org. It also seems that the org would want to talk to Clare first and then send her North. I don't think that Miria was expecting Jean to show up; she just followed Clare there. So we don't know if there were official orders with some sort of roster.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

I think that Clare desperately needs a face smash from Cynthia, It's been too long since someone gave her the last one and her ego is skyrocketing