[Jap-Manga] Claymore Statistics, Power Levels, and Theories [Archive]

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-14, 17:24

After aquiring the last source book, I decided to complise the stats into 1 large list for everyone to see and compare themselves.

I copied this post from my own post on Naruto Forums:

"S" is a special level of ability. A "+" indicts a level of profeciency above the average.

Ability declaration: Assessment E>A for each item.

S signifies a capacity on a different level. + indicates that the effective utilization of the power depends on the circumstances, not that it's an intermediate value.

------------------------

Teresa's generation;

Teresa of the Faint Smile: No.1 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: S
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type, Pre-Emptive Perception, All-Rounder.

Technique: Detailed Aura Detection

--------------

Priscilla: No.2 (165 CM Tall)

Yoki: A+
Agility: A+
Strength: B+
Mental: D
Sense: A+
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type, Yoki-Supression, Rapid Growth.

Technique: Aura Supression

--------------

"Flash-Sword" Irene: No.3 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: A+
Sense: B
Leadership: A

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: Flash-Sword

---------------

Sophia: No.4 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: C
Strength: A+
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type

--------------

Noel: No.5 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: A+
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sense: B
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

-------------

Clare's Generation;

Alicia and Beth: No.1 and No.2 (180 CM tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A+
Strength: A+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: E

Class: Unique

-------------

Galatea: No.3 (185 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: A
Sensing: A+
Leadership: B

Class: Defensive Type

Technique: Yoki Manipulation

-------------

"Rippling" Ophelia No.4 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: C
Sensing: B+
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: "Rippling" Sword

--------------

Rafaela: No.5 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: A
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: Aura Supression

---------------

"Phantom" Miria No.6 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B+
Agility: A+
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sensing: C
Leadership: A+

Class: Offensive Type

---------------

Flora: No.8 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: A
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sense: C
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type

Technique: Windcutter

-------------

Jean: No.9 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: C
Strength: B+
Mental: A+
Sense: C
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type

-------------

Undine: No.11 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C
Agility: C
Strength: A
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: C+

Class: Offensive Type

-------------

Deneve: No.15 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B+
Agility: B
Strength: C
Mental: C+
Sensing: C
Leadership: C

Class: Defensive Type

--------------

Helen: No.22 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C+
Agility: C
Strength: B
Mental: C
Sensing: C
Leadership: D

Class: Offensive Type

--------------

Clare: No.47 (170 CM Tall)

Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: E

Class: Offensive Type, Pre-Emptive Perception

Technique: Flash-Sword

--------------

Elena: No.? (Clare's dead friend from Volume 1)

Yoki: D
Agility: D
Strength: D
Mental: E
Sense: D
Leadership: C

---------------

Awakened Beings: Awakened Beings are rated on a completely different scale, "Intelligence" is the most common translation of that last stat, so I'll go with it.

Priscilla: Former No.2

Yoki: EX
Agility: SSS+
Strength: SSS
Hardness: S+
Intelligence: SS

--------------

Ophelia: No. 4 (Eliminated)

Yoki: SS
Agility: SSS
Strength: SS
Hardness: S
Intelligence: SS

----------------

Duph: Former No.3

Yoki: SSS+
Agility: S
Strength: SSS+
Hardness: SSS
Intelligence: C

------------------

Hilda: Former No.6 (Eliminated)

Yoki: SSS+
Agility: SS+
Strength: SS
Hardness: S
Intelligence: SS

------------------

Female AB: Ophelia's Short-Lived playmate (Eliminated)

Yoki: SS+
Agility: SS
Strength: SS
Hardness: S
Intelligence: SS

-------------------

Male AB: First one to Appear in the manga (Eliminated)

Yoki: SS
Agility: SS
Strength: S
Hardness: S+
Intelligence: SS

-------------------

Katea: (Eliminated)

Yoki: A
Agility: S
Strength: A
Hardness: A
Intelligence: S

------------------------------

and there you have it, for all to see. :twitch:

Edit: some clarification for what A-D and + and S mean.

Fate_Archer

2007-10-15, 03:47

Thanks for the Info, Fenrir. :)

As expected, Jean has a great Mental, while Undine and Flora excel in strength and agility respectively.

I have to say that the twins's stats didn't surprise me much. I had great perspective about these two.
Now, we can definitely say that Alicia and Beth aren't puppets that can only semi-transform into a complete awakened been.
Ok, they are puppets, but they aren't only "concentrate, awake, kill, return".
It would be sweet to see their combat skills.

Rafaela: No.5 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: A
Leadership: C

------------------------

Teresa of the Faint Smile: No.1 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: S
Leadership: B

------------------------

Alicia and Beth: No.1 and No.2 (180 CM tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A+
Strength: A+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: E

Discuss.

By the way, as Rubel says, Rafaela was so strong as Lucera/Luciela, so we now have an analogue way to compare these top Claymores from different generations.

Let's stop the Priscilla vs Teresa discussion and go further to the:

Teresa vs Alicia vs Beth discussion.

Not a great difference between Teresa and the Twins, one could even argue that they can be stronger.

**Run away and hide from the Teresa's worshipers**

Blablabla

2007-10-15, 04:15

BaalChaamon

2007-10-15, 06:47

wow, alicia and beth really are powerful, even without awakening and from the data given they could easily take on Luciela in her awakened form!
So we can assume that the other ABs had more or less around the same stats that Raphalea has now.
Remember, Riful said that (regardless what anyone on the forum thinks) Isley was near death after the fight with Luciela so he could have only been a little stronger than Luciela, if he was at all.

At any rate, Alicia and Beth have risen in my favour even more now!!

BaalChaamon

2007-10-15, 07:16

Undine: No.11 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C
Agility: C
Strength: A
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: C+

-------------

Deneve: No.15 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: B+
Agility: B
Strength: C
Mental: C+
Sensing: C
Leadership: C

--------------

Helen: No.22 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C+
Agility: C
Strength: B
Mental: C
Sensing: C
Leadership: D

Am suprised as to how WEAK Undine is, there is only little difference between the lower levels. Overall, Deneva seems to be on par with her. On the other hand , the top five really are in a league of their own!

brutalman

2007-10-15, 07:56

BaalChaamon

2007-10-15, 08:06

These are meant to be the Org's evaluations just before the Pieta aren't they? They've obviously got problems ranking Claire - at Pieta she seemed roughly as powerful as Flora even before she awakened her limbs.

What do they mean by "Mental"?

I guess its meant to be mental strenght/will power... no suprise Alicia, Beth, Irene and Jean excelled at that

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-15, 10:27

The main flaw with saying that Alicia/Beth > Teresa is that Teresa special ability (Yoki-sensing) gives her a near absolute advantage in combat, so despite their superior strength, her ability gives her a huge boost.

Mental does = willpower, just as BaalChaamon stated.

-----------

I believe the Organization never got to re-do their evaluation of Clare's skills due to her leaving the Organization right before the War in the North, but we have a pretty good guess at what Clare's stats are like now that we have Flora's.

My guess for Clare's stats at that time would be =

Yoki = C+
Agility = B+
Strength = C
Mental = B
Sense = B+
Leadership = E

My reasoning behind these stats is that Rigaldo wrote off Deneve (who has a B+ in Yoki) but targetted people who had A stats. So I decided not to give Clare an A stat, so her escaping Rigaldo's death-o-meter makes sense.

Note that her Agility is only a B because the quick-sword is a special ability, like her Yoki-sensing.

------------

As for Miata, if the Organization is right, she is about as strong as Alicia but with the added bonus of her sixth sense, which is supposed to be seperate from her Yoki-sensing ability, but i am certain she would lose out on the mental score. :p

So my guess would be =

Yoki = S
Agility = A+
Strength = A+
Mental = D
Sense = S
Leadership = E

As combat-powerful as Alicia, but lacking in both restraint and leadership ability. Her sensing would be top-tier though, especially since it does not rely on Yoki.

------------------

Also note that Priscilla never got the chance to fully develop her skill while under the Organization's wing, but her awakening unlocked her potential, which was likely much higher then the stats displayed here.

Sassarai

2007-10-15, 11:04

So Alicia and Beth are actually the strongest Claymores in history (even without talking about the "awaken" tip). No need to discuss more, facts are here.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7656/texh1.jpg

Anh_Minh

2007-10-15, 12:51

So Alicia and Beth are actually the strongest Claymores in history (even without talking about the "awaken" tip). No need to discuss more, facts are here.

(and therefore, Teresa even if awakened is no deal for the Abyssals and so, the Priscilla that kicked Luciela).
They may be A+ in everything, but that doesn't mean they can beat Theresa's sensing trick.

Besides, IIRC, those cards aren't the word of god, but only the Organisation's views. And we know Theresa hid most of her hand from them.

wow, alicia and beth really are powerful, even without awakening and from the data given they could easily take on Luciela in her awakened form!
So we can assume that the other ABs had more or less around the same stats that Raphalea has now.
Remember, Riful said that (regardless what anyone on the forum thinks) Isley was near death after the fight with Luciela so he could have only been a little stronger than Luciela, if he was at all.

At any rate, Alicia and Beth have risen in my favour even more now!!
What are you talking about? Raphaela, back before she suppressed her youki, was as strong as unawakened Luciela. Nobody ever claimed she came close to an Abyssal One level of power.

It's the same for Alicia and Beth. When Awakened, Alicia is Abyssal-class. Otherwise, she's "just" a number 1. Remember, when she was incomplete, she deemed herself unable to do more than 50% damage on Riful.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-15, 14:45

Exactly, Awakening has a significant jump in power, so Alicia would have to awaken to fight the Abyssal Ones regardless.

As for Teresa, she may have hid her hand from the Organization, but judging by the 3rd data book, they were well aware of many things that we did not believe they knew about, they even know about Clare's 4-limbed Partial-awakening judging by the data book.

I also doubt that they do not check whether a warrior has been confirmed eliminated or not. So Teresa's rather unbelievable statement over Rosemary NOT awakening was probably seen through immediatly.

Especially considering that Teresa claimed normal yoma had caused her injuries...pfff yeah right. :heh:

I also had a thought on how Alicia's stats can be so high, technically she is a partially awakened #1, and as we have seen, the partial awakenings increase power significantly.

Anh_Minh

2007-10-15, 14:55

Yeah... But as for Irene's statement that she, Sophia, and Noel were better than Theresa in each of their specialties, I'd have to say "Not even on the best days of your lives." And they do have some A+ in there, so I think Theresa's at least A+ too...

Sassarai

2007-10-15, 15:16

Well if they knew teresa's abilities that well they wouldnt of just sent 2,3,4, and 5 after her. All of them got totally pwned.

All these stats and gizmothingymiggies dont mean much in the claymore world. If so Clare would of been dead already and it would of took more then a fingernail to kill flora /cry

Gooral

2007-10-15, 15:20

Especially considering that Teresa claimed normal yoma had caused her injuries...pfff yeah right. :heh:

Not injuries but messed up clothes :P.
These stats are only inexact estimations of power. Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being, Teresa S/A warrior easily killed SSS+ Awakened Being (or even stronger, Duph was SSS+/SSS warrior).
Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ;)), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.

As for Teresa, she may have hid her hand from the Organization, but judging by the 3rd data book, they were well aware of many things that we did not believe they knew about, they even know about Clare's 4-limbed Partial-awakening judging by the data book.

Can't agree with You on that simply because if organization knew Teresa's real potential they would not send Claymores 2-5 but waited until Priscilla evolved and then tried to kill her. Losing 4 most powerful warriors to kill one is illogical and assuming that MiB aren't stupid they didn't know the depth of Teresa's power.

Sassarai

2007-10-15, 15:41

It's ok you go into detail about stuff while im just a sarcastic guy. Even if its the same thing you make it sound more meaningful.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-15, 17:02

Not injuries but messed up clothes :P.
These stats are only inexact estimations of power. Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being, Teresa S/A warrior easily killed SSS+ Awakened Being (or even stronger, Duph was SSS+/SSS warrior).
Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ;)), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.

Even damaging her clothes is way beyond anything a normal Yoma could do to Teresa of the Faint Smile, also getting slammed through rocks and knocked around does not qualify as "uninjured."

Awakened beings are rated on a different scale, either that or they waste a ton of energy maintaining their awakened forms.

The stats are compared to each other I assume, the highest that they recorded would likely be S, and the lowest would be F.

They also imply that they have an Eye for each era, so I assume they can measure power quite accurately. (The exception being Teresa, as she was likely the Eye of her Era, thus could have fudged her info.)

Can't agree with You on that simply because if organization knew Teresa's real potential they would not send Claymores 2-5 but waited until Priscilla evolved and then tried to kill her. Losing 4 most powerful warriors to kill one is illogical and assuming that MiB aren't stupid they didn't know the depth of Teresa's power.

I think it is quite possible, they were probably over-enthusiastic with Priscilla's awesome potential, and assumed she could defeat Teresa with help. They were right actually, if Priscilla had followed the plan Teresa would have died before the fight had even started. The fault lies on Priscilla for the failure of the mission, not Teresa. Not to mention the Organization acted on reflex, panic-mode if you will, they could not afford to have Teresa awaken OR go rogue. They did not have much choice on the matter in the big-scheme of things.

Sassarai

2007-10-15, 17:16

BaalChaamon

2007-10-15, 19:05

They may be A+ in everything, but that doesn't mean they can beat Theresa's sensing trick.

Besides, IIRC, those cards aren't the word of god, but only the Organisation's views. And we know Theresa hid most of her hand from them.

What are you talking about? Raphaela, back before she suppressed her youki, was as strong as unawakened Luciela. Nobody ever claimed she came close to an Abyssal One level of power.

It's the same for Alicia and Beth. When Awakened, Alicia is Abyssal-class. Otherwise, she's "just" a number 1. Remember, when she was incomplete, she deemed herself unable to do more than 50% damage on Riful.

That was ill phrased... what i ment to say was that Alicia and Beth could take on an Luciela if one of them awakens. I am saying this based on the statement that Luciela and Raphaela were on par before the former awakened. Regardless if Raphaela suppressed her Yoki after the incident or not, I doubt the Org. would compile wrong data knowing her previous power so Id say its safe to assume her current ratings are the same as her old ones and that of her sister before she became an Abyssal One. And Alicia and Beth surpass them in all of those stats

BaalChaamon

2007-10-15, 19:14

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-15, 19:42

Teresa just said "you could of wounded me." Take that line however you want to I guess but the fact is that they got WHOOPEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD easily EASILY. Meh organization is in a panic is just a bad excuse :( . All the male ABs, Riful, Easley, Lucela, etc they have been in worst situations. From what Irene said Ill just take it as they underestimated her by a lot.

"I was sure the four of us could take her. I misjudged her again. And yet she still hasnt released her yoma powers." ( While all of them released theirs already)

Teresa was bleeding from the head because of her fight with Rosemary, and afterwards Teresa destroyed her with her almighty haxxorness, so she was the clear winner, yes, but she was not uninjured.

And if I were the Organization I would panic too, they very likely knew Teresa's strength, and that would make the situation potentially worse then any of those that you mentioned, because if Teresa awakened she would be more powerful then any of the forementioned threats.

It is also mentioned that Priscilla was ideal for fighting Teresa because Teresa could not detect her Yoki, but we all know that plan went straight to hell when Priscilla gave herself away and they all released Yoki in hopes of overwhelming her (and thus screwing themselves even more.)

Interesting enough Hilda (No.6) has a so much more powerful Yoki level compared to Ophelai (No.4) of her time. Awakening seems to have disproportionately increased that stat of hers so I'd say she hasnt seen her haydays prior to her awakening and could have become a top 5 warrior, hence why her complete Yoki potential was unleashed upon awakening.

I noticed that myself, seems quite likely that you are correct and she was quite a great deal stronger then we were led to believe by her rank, or all Awakenings are not equal.

Sassarai

2007-10-15, 21:41

Actually Ive have no idea how to debate against you because you're confusing me;;. Oh well its just speculation vs speculation and always someone comes up with a bigger speculation then the other previous speculation etc etc etc. I give up. I stated my point and im done. I dont like circle arguments like the ones in the Raki thread it drives me bonkers.

Sassarais stats:

Mental(willpower): E

Fate_Archer

2007-10-15, 22:49

Besides, IIRC, those cards aren't the word of god, but only the Organisation's views. And we know Theresa hid most of her hand from them.

Well, they aren't but they are our best references now. And even if they aren't, the actual stats wouldn't be so far from this.

I also had a thought on how Alicia's stats can be so high, technically she is a partially awakened #1, and as we have seen, the partial awakenings increase power significantly.

I was thinking the same even before these databooks showed up. Following the logic that every time you get close to awake and go back, you become stronger, hence the superiority of the semi-awakened, the return from a complete awakening would turn Alicia each time even more stronger.
So, powerful enough, Alicia can still evolve, while Riful, Easley and even Priscilla are predestined to stay on their same levels.

If that's true, it would make much sense all investments, sacrifices and the time spent by the Org on these two.

These stats are only inexact estimations of power. Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being

Sorry for breaking your sentence, but I guess none of these stats or informations can translate the luck or surprise factor.
Ophelia was dominated and could be dead, but even with a broken neck she managed to kill and surprise the female SS awakened been.
Teresa was fooled by a cheap shot. Does that makes Priscilla stronger than Teresa? No. (Please, don't start all over again, i'm just using it as an argument)
So yeah, in this way these stats aren't really exact, but it doesn't make them inexact either.

Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ;)), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.

I guess they just make the more logical thing, they use the average as reference. The ones that have potential or surpass this average are placed with lesser digits.
And just because there wasn't an eye in the #1 to #5 of this generation, it doesn't mean that there wasn't an eye at all.
Tabitha is the "eye" of the fab 7 and she is just #31. Even without an eye so good as Galatea, a good measurement would be possible, I guess.

Awakened beings are rated on a different scale, either that or they waste a ton of energy maintaining their awakened forms.

Judging by their stats, awakened Katea seems to be a "normal" Claymore, while Duff has a C in its intelligence trait. The scale seems to be the same for both Claymores and Awakened beens. So most probably, they use their yoki to maintain their awakened body.

They also imply that they have an Eye for each era, so I assume they can measure power quite accurately. (The exception being Teresa, as she was likely the Eye of her Era, thus could have fudged her info.)

To avoid this kind of issue, the eye and the number #1 should be different warriors, with the eye being a more reliable and weaker Claymore. Don't know if they consider that, but I just guess they should know.
On a side note, Teresa's sensing ability is totally directed for combat.
Besides Clare also detecting Galatea from a great distance, which would mean an indirect implication, we never saw Teresa sensing yoki from an unusual distance, or even acting like an eye.

I think it is quite possible, they were probably over-enthusiastic with Priscilla's awesome potential, and assumed she could defeat Teresa with help. They were right actually, if Priscilla had followed the plan Teresa would have died before the fight had even started. The fault lies on Priscilla for the failure of the mission, not Teresa. Not to mention the Organization acted on reflex, panic-mode if you will, they could not afford to have Teresa awaken OR go rogue. They did not have much choice on the matter in the big-scheme of things.

Totally agreed.

Interesting enough Hilda (No.6) has a so much more powerful Yoki level compared to Ophelai (No.4) of her time. Awakening seems to have disproportionately increased that stat of hers so I'd say she hasnt seen her haydays prior to her awakening and could have become a top 5 warrior, hence why her complete Yoki potential was unleashed upon awakening.

About that matter, there isn't a proper answer I think.
Firstly, Rubel said that Priscilla unleashead all her potential when she awoke. What conflicts with Riful's statement when she left Clare, Jean and Galatea alive, so they could get stronger and awake as even more powerful awakened beens.

I just believe Hilda was stronger, regardless of their ranks. (Yeah, I prefer Rifuls words, she hasn't left those 3 for no reason.)

...

Sassarais stats:

Mental(willpower): E

lol :heh:

That's because you're only using 15% of your mental power. :D

Sassarai

2007-10-15, 23:18

lol :heh:

That's because you're only using 15% of your mental power. :D

Ahem Correction 20% if you want to get techinical then it's 20.233(repeating of course)

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-15, 23:51

About that matter, there isn't a proper answer I think.
Firstly, Rubel said that Priscilla unleashead all her potential when she awoke. What conflicts with Riful's statement when she left Clare, Jean and Galatea alive, so they could get stronger and awake as even more powerful awakened beens.

I just believe Hilda was stronger, regardless of their ranks. (Yeah, I prefer Rifuls words, she hasn't left those 3 for no reason)

Actually if you notice, Riful only says that about Clare and Jean, the two partially awakened, she does not say anything about Galatea, I guess she realy did not like the idea of Alicia measuring her power.

So both Rubel and Riful could be correct, Rubel in that Awakening "awakens" your potential power, and Riful in that Jean and Clare could increase there power before awakening fully.

and don't worry Sassarai, i'll try not to drag you into my arguements.

Fenrir Valindri's stats

Mental(willpower) : A

FateAnomaly

2007-10-16, 01:04

The stats is only a gauge of their physical abilities. When it comes to fighting, lot of other factors comes into play like skill, knowledge, morale and even luck.

azurie

2007-10-16, 01:08

desire would also be considered too i would think. One who has a desire to win might do a lot better than someone who is just there because it's a job or some other so so reason. wouldn't ya think? or would you qualify that as part of moral?

BaalChaamon

2007-10-16, 03:27

I'm with Fenrir on the awakening and power surge topic. While Claymores (partially awakened or not) are able to increase their ability and skill levels progressively through training (partially awakened ones possible more effectively by tapping into a greater portion of their potential or by improving the quality of their yoki as Miria stated in the Slashers arc), Awakened ones cannot improve their abilities but remain static once they have unleashed their actual and potential power. Thats why I said that Hilda could have possible become a Tier 1 warrior (aka Top 5), but she awakened before she could use her potential.

Regarding the whole issue of Teresa hiding her power: I always wondered why the Org. never looked for the remains of Rosemary to check what had happened. Its not a casual event for a former No.1 to come close to awakening and would be worthwhile checking on what went on. They did find the awakened remains of Ophelia after all. My guess is that Teresa buried her Claymore style after she had her fun with her.

dee32

2007-10-16, 03:56

I believe the Organization never got to re-do their evaluation of Clare's skills due to her leaving the Organization right before the War in the North, but we have a pretty good guess at what Clare's stats are like now that we have Flora's.

My guess for Clare's stats at that time would be =

Yoki = C+
Agility = B
Strength = C
Mental = B
Sense = B+
Leadership = E

I agree with mostly with your assumption of Clare's stats except for:

Agility = A

Is it safe to say at this time when Clare faces Flora, Clare would be considered a single digit possibly the new number 7?

This is my guess for Clare's stats seven years after the war in the North when she fights Miria.

Yoki = C+
Agility = A
Strength = C
Mental = B+
Sense = A
Leadership = D

Another thing does anyone have an idea what are the stats for Cynthia, Tabitha, and Yuma are?

Flar

2007-10-16, 05:34

Is it safe to say at this time when Clare faces Flora, Clare would be considered a single digit possibly the new number 7?Number 9 I'd say, Flora still beat her in Leadership, yoki, tactics and iai. In the other hand, she blasted awakened ophelia alone and was arguably better than Jean when it came to leadership and efficiency against Riful.

Another thing does anyone have an idea what are the stats for Cynthia, Tabitha, and Yuma are?At the time of Pieta...

Cynthia is stronger than Deneve (according to ranking), and is defensive too. She was one of the six last standing in pieta, and she clearly takes control of the group after the fab 4 take off to rescue the poor lambs from Riful. so I would say:

Yoki = C+
Agility = C
Strength = C+
Mental = B+
Sense = B
Leadership = B

Tabitha shows some "tricky movements" against the first AB in Pieta, and become the Ghost 7s eye, with a better range than Clare. She was not among the last 6 standing in Pieta. She was 30. She's a follower, also. So:

Yoki = C
Agility = B
Strength = C
Mental = C
Sense = B+
Leadership = E

Yuma sucks. She's the only one wounded in the first Pieta skirmish, she isn't part of the last 6, she is a follower, she cannot even follow Clare when she walks fast. Still, she survived, and she can sense power. So:

Yoki = D
Agility = E
Strength = D
Mental = E
Sense = D
Leadership = E

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-16, 09:12

Regarding the whole issue of Teresa hiding her power: I always wondered why the Org. never looked for the remains of Rosemary to check what had happened. Its not a casual event for a former No.1 to come close to awakening and would be worthwhile checking on what went on. They did find the awakened remains of Ophelia after all. My guess is that Teresa buried her Claymore style after she had her fun with her.

I have my doubts on whether Teresa's power was actually well hidden from the Organization, as you said, a nearly-awakened former #1 is way to important to go unchecked...unless you have confidence in Teresa's ability to kill her in such a case. :uhoh:

The reason I did not give Clare an A stat is because Rigaldo ignored her, and the only thing that every target of Rigaldo seemed to share (other then obviously being the leaders) was that they all had a A stat, thus leading Rigaldo to focus on them.

So maybe a B+, but just barely not a A.

I believe it is too hard to judge the other 3, cept maybe Cynthia, based on what we have seen of them, but I think your underrating Yuma.

My guess would be;

Yuma

Yoki: D
Agility: D
Strength: D
Mental: C
Sense: D
Leadership: C

I basically compared her stats to Elena (Clare's friend) as she IS higher ranked then Clare (technically.) So it is good to judge based on the next lowest character we know, stat wise.

I doubt any of the 7 Ghosts mental score is low either, as they have quite the strong will-power to survive in the north for 7 years, while training to increase their strength.

Flar

2007-10-16, 09:41

Tevourious

2007-10-16, 10:00

All this talk of stats has me wanting to stat the ladies out via the RPG, Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition books. :) anyone else familiar with the system? :) I think the Claymore world would rock as a rpg setting :)

azurie

2007-10-16, 10:43

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-16, 11:10

Just going by org evaluations before the time skip. Leadership C for Yuma is definitely too high, since all she does is follow. She froze before the first AB she saw too, so if we take snapshots of them during the northern war, she has no iron mental either, D at max, imho.

I really do not think so, just because she got scared does not mean that she has a low mental score, Irene was scared and she has one of the highest mental scores in the series, at least Yuma is still willing to fight even after going through such an ordeal, and she does not go berserk at the drop of a hat like Clare does. :heh:

I gave her a C in leadership because Elena had one too, and she was obviously low-ranked as well, we don't see Yuma leading because well, everyone else is higher ranked then her, cept for Clare, who does not even listen to Miria that often.

Then again, as Miria said, the 24 sent in Pieta were all better off dead for the organisation, so what was Yuma's offense? (I could go with Cynthia being too cunning and Tabitha knowing too much, but what did Yuma pull to get sacked?)

The 24 sent to Pieta were either trouble-makers or expendable, so my guess is a vast majority, including Cynthia and Tabitha, were just that, expendable.

About Clare, after killing Ligardes, before the timeskip, Pris sees two strong lights, way stronger than the others, that I assume are Miria and Clare, that's why I would put Miria and Clare at at least A+ for Yoki

Yes, but we are talking pre-Rigaldo here, I would not be so quick to stick Miria and Clare's Yoki at A+; that would be at noob Priscilla level.
I would be more willing to stick them in the A catagory though, simliar to Irene and Galatea

----------------

Clare's yoki fluxuates to much can go from a low rank to almost AO rank as you have seen so putting her to stats is almost impossible with any of the stats but for leadership and even then she has shown at time she possess some rather good leadership skills when she so wants it's a matter of WANTING to it seems. i get the feeling that she will begin to pull more and more from Terresa's flesh and power as time goes on and learn more from it and how to control it even better.

Her Yoki does flux quite a bit, so it is impossible to accurately gauge her abilities, but she only goes to almost AO rank when she did the awakened limb thing.

I do not really think she has good leadership skills based on what we have seen, she is prone to independent action and is hot-headed, just because she had an idea (that was full of holes) and it worked does not mean she has even decent leadership skills, it helps that Jean was more then willing to help her out (with the whole wookie-lifedebt thing.)

Every time she partially awakens I get the feeling she becomes more and more compatible with the Yoma that was inside Teresa. So I believe she is becoming stronger and stronger every time she goes over her limit.

One thing i have noticed with Clare though is she seems to be a collector not just of body parts but yoki based skills as well. Look at the flash sword as one example. Sure it's hard to learn but one would have thought just from what Irene said it would be nearly impossible for Clare with her mentality to learn it. And when she was in the witches maw arc she very quickly picked up in part Galatea's skill to a point to turn back Jean. So it seems she can to a limited degree absorb skills she sees or feels.

Not really; she was not suited to the flash-sword, so she needed Irene's (much more compatible) arm in order to use it properly. Galatea's skill was also closely linked with Clare's own, so it is not much of a suprise that she can do a half-assed version of Galatea's skill, especially when her target is going along with her, hell even Jean managed to pull it off later. I believe Clare is just a quick learner, everything she has picked up has been related to her normal skill-set or she has had help. (AKA Irene's arm)
Later the Windcutter was achievable because of the latent ability in Irene's arm as well.

azurie

2007-10-16, 11:14

i see your points and will conceed to many of them but here's something to consider

Galatea's ability to tweak yoki is that a learned skill or something from the yoma flesh she aquired? it's not something we ever learned so who really knows. Terresa sure never showed she has such a skill or for that matter that she was that generation's eye. Just leaves more questions than answers i guess.

Flar

2007-10-16, 11:24

One thing i have noticed with Clare though is she seems to be a collector not just of body parts but yoki based skills as well. Look at the flash sword as one example. Sure it's hard to learn but one would have thought just from what Irene said it would be nearly impossible for Clare with her mentality to learn it. And when she was in the witches maw arc she very quickly picked up in part Galatea's skill to a point to turn back Jean. So it seems she can to a limited degree absorb skills she sees or feels. I don't know. She starts off with Yoki reading as her strong point, but that's hardly a "technique", merely a specialisation and good use of her senses. You could hardly say that the two Claymores sent with Irena for Teresa's head had Strength and Agility techniques, just that they were specialized in it.

The same way, all Claymores will probably specialize one way or another, but techniques are not limited. Helen picked up Jean's strong blow for example, and Tabitha probably became a Galatea bis.

The way the mangaka weaves his story, Miria is midfielder/captain, with speed and tactics but low power, when Clare and Helen are forwards hard hitters. Deneve is defense, Tabitha manager, Cynthia the second defenser and Yuma the ball.

azurie

2007-10-16, 11:26

what exactly is Yuma's nich? haven't seen her fight or anything

dee32

2007-10-16, 11:29

So after the timeskip is it possible for Mira leadership= S.

azurie

2007-10-16, 11:31

yanno that's a good question specially since she is the one who got them all out of that sticky sitiation. BUT!! how did they aquire the pills?? clare maybe?

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-16, 11:38

I don't know. She starts off with Yoki reading as her strong point, but that's hardly a "technique", merely a specialisation and good use of her senses. You could hardly say that the two Claymores sent with Irena for Teresa's head had Strength and Agility techniques, just that they were specialized in it.

The same way, all Claymores will probably specialize one way or another, but techniques are not limited. Helen picked up Jean's strong blow for example, and Tabitha probably became a Galatea bis.

The way the mangaka weaves his story, Miria is midfielder/captain, with speed and tactics but low power, when Clare and Helen are forwards hard hitters. Deneve is defense, Tabitha manager, Cynthia the second defenser and Yuma the ball.

Her Yoki-manipulation is probably something that derived from her Yoki-sensing, similiar to how Teresa used her close-in Yoki-sensing skills as a sort of "danger-sense." I would guess it is a learned ability, like the flash-sword, but only those who are "built" for it can use it as well as Galatea, (AKA the AB in the North who could manipulate Yoki.)

Helen's flexible arms are probably what allowed her to pick of Jean's simliar, yet different, skill. While Tabitha always had talent in that department, but was over-shadowed by people like Galatea.

I would say Miria is the All-rounder, she can perform whatever roll she needs to in battle, and she can attack at sudden and unexpected speeds, she is quick with thinking on her feet as well, not to mention her phantom ability can confuse the crap out of those caught un-aware.

Helen would be a Shock-trooper as her abilities allow her to attack from unexpected angles at unexpected ranges, and with alot of power now with Jean's technique.

Clare is definatly a front-liner, with her Yoki-sensing allowing her to avoid the worst of attacks, and her Windcutter giving her an offensive punch.

Deneve is definatly a tank/front-liner, she can take hits and it is obvious that she has focused on her strength a bit with the two-sword style that she picked up from Undine.

Cynthia is probably a all-rounder like Miria, but to a much lesser degree, as she has many of the same qualities that Miria has, but she is also a defensive type, so where Miria is more focused on speed, she is more focused on toughness.

Tabitha is the advanced warning and is probably on over-watch duty to ensure that people do not get suprised by an unexpected attack, as she has the longest range out of the 7 ghosts, she likely only invovles herself heavily in battle when they need the extra power, or when it is safe for her to do so.

Yuma is likely the filler/clean-up, she is the weakest of the bunch but she is an extra body that the enemy has to worry about, and having so many people attacking you at once could make it difficult to defend against even Yuma.

azurie

2007-10-16, 11:49

are you saying that Tabitha is better at yoki sensing than clare? how can that be when it was clare who was able to sense Galatea from the range that she did in the slashers arc and that was what 5 or 6 miles or more? it's in both the anime and the manga so it stands to reason that clare's yoki sensing ability is very close to Galatea's wouldn't it? making her better for long range radar type duties.

Flar

2007-10-16, 11:49

I gave her a C in leadership because Elena had one too, and she was obviously low-ranked as well, we don't see Yuma leading because well, everyone else is higher ranked then her, cept for Clare, who does not even listen to Miria that often.I conced her Mental could be C, to simply survive Pieta. But if you look at what she does, she always defer decisions, and waits for someone to show her the way, that's not very leader-like, no matter how powerful you are. Putting her at C makes her better than Helen and Clare (D and E) and even with Deneve or Ophelia. It's just not right. :p

By the way, thinking about it, it's a miracle noone awakened in Pieta, considering how close it was with the scout, how easy it went for Ophelia, Pris, Jean and Katea, and how that multitude of AB should have forced them to tap deep into their yoma power. Thinking further about that, make Cynthia's Yoki a B for being in the last 6 without being able to go past her yoki limit like the fab 4.

azurie

2007-10-16, 11:54

to be honest except for clare it's a miracle any of them survived much less did so without awaking i just wait to see how the anime and the manga are gonna get back in sync again in a season 2 is they do decide to go with the rumors i've seen so often (and have to admit have spread what i've seen too)

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-16, 12:56

I conced her Mental could be C, to simply survive Pieta. But if you look at what she does, she always defer decisions, and waits for someone to show her the way, that's not very leader-like, no matter how powerful you are. Putting her at C makes her better than Helen and Clare (D and E) and even with Deneve or Ophelia. It's just not right. :p

Welll...
Helen has a habit of pushing peoples buttons, and is a bit of a hot-head herself, Clare I have already stated. Deneve is similiar to Helen, but with a haughty attitude to boot, and Ophelia was just plain crazy. So when competeing against that bunch, I would put Yuma at D+ to C level still :P

Being deferent does not mean your not a capable leader, it just means that you understand there are people better suited for the job then you, she also seems to have a case of hero-worship for the fab 4.

By the way, thinking about it, it's a miracle noone awakened in Pieta, considering how close it was with the scout, how easy it went for Ophelia, Pris, Jean and Katea, and how that multitude of AB should have forced them to tap deep into their yoma power. Thinking further about that, make Cynthia's Yoki a B for being in the last 6 without being able to go past her yoki limit like the fab 4.

Well Opehlia was crazy, and Priscilla was unstable. Jean was tortured for a pro-longed period of time, as was Katea. Only one AB we have seen so far can manipulate Yoki, and he got taken out by our-partially awakened group, otherwise a few WOULD have awakened.

Cynthia's Yoki could be in the C+-B range, it would not suprise me at all.

Flar

2007-10-16, 14:35

Heh, I can't wait to see them in real action, even Yuma.

We'll probably see an awakened Clare with some funky soul link with Teresa, going archangel with blade wings and all sort of stuff hitting the fan, but the ones I'm most curious about right now are Deneve, Cynthia and Yuma.

How fun would it be if miata was dispatched by Yuma alone? :)

azurie

2007-10-16, 14:44

well since you mentioned the soul link that reminds me . . . Alicia and Beth have the twin soul bond and from what little i have known of it from other generas it's a weird link between two different people where they will completely experience each others feelings pains everything so i can see 100% how they can use it to make Alicia into one HELLA powerful claymore and thus allow her to awaken without loosin her humanity since it could be in the care of her natural twin and soul bound one at that beth. Now as to how they could manage this that remains a mystry since it normally takes an extreem event to cause such a bond even with twins. a true soul bond as discribed in other world is many times tighter than the bond normal twins have. IE if me and let's for arguements sake say clare had it if she bumped her had and me half a world away would feel that bump the exact moment she did it also !! if she had any and i mean ANY emotional change of a more than minor nature (getting upset wouldn't do it getting pissed would love would also produce such triggers) the emotional responses would be felt regardless of distance. I hope that this makes sense to those of you who may can understand what i am attempting to convey and how i can attempt to percieve the thing they the org have made in Alicia and Beth.

Kalinas

2007-10-16, 14:48

Then why when Alicia awakens, Beth doesn't awaken too. They feel the same stuff, right ?

azurie

2007-10-16, 15:04

the reason is because as i mentioned Beth become the caretaker of all of Alicia's humanity and i mean ALL of it. An unusual trait for a twin soul bond to take IMO but not completely out of the real of possibilities either mind ya. Even in the other worlds where such is considered somewhat common place the traite was never fully explored thus what all can and does happen isn't known or explained. I know this much Beth being on the side of the bond she is is actually the stronger of the two twins on one respect while Alicia is the other respect if you wish to look at stats though i am sure it's possible for them to flip flop if the need arises but i doubt it due to training used for them. I get the feeling that they spent all the time training them to be exactly as we have seen them so they do not really know how to be the other way even though it would seem possible IMO.

Ok let's take Alicia you all know her base stats right? well with the twin soul bond as she awakens she will loose all the mental based stats 100% since they will completely shift to Beth all of them everything mental based but for what is required for yoki control that she is still in full control over infact she gains most if not all of beth's Yoki during this time. (note she does maintain some intelligence just the base needed to communicate that's all nothing more)

Now for Beth. Beth when Alicia looses almost 100% of her physical stats (not all since doing that means weaker than even a baby) However the rest is lost to her due to the transfer to Alicia but her mental stats are off the scale. It's during this time that she is communicating to Alicia with their physic link through the soul bond to give her all the information that their senses would normally be telling them in battle (at least that is how it seems to me or should seem since there has been no information at this time to dispute or back up this yet just going from previous experience with simulat situations with simular worlds). that being said that makes them together many times harder than any 1 claymore to handle not impossible just harder.

Now keep in mind while they are doing their awakening thing Beth is completely unable to move on her own or at least that's how it seems due to she is both having to control the mental capicaties of Alicia and keep in constant with Alicia giving her battle information. At least that is the way it would appear since just having to keep her human self in check doesn't seem a good enough reason for Beth to need to go into such a deep trance where the need for such deep communication of information at a distance does. (consider using Alicia's physical senses with the mental perceptions of Beth during the awakened moments and think about the implications)

Fate_Archer

2007-10-16, 15:19

Actually if you notice, Riful only says that about Clare and Jean, the two partially awakened, she does not say anything about Galatea, I guess she realy did not like the idea of Alicia measuring her power.

So both Rubel and Riful could be correct, Rubel in that Awakening "awakens" your potential power, and Riful in that Jean and Clare could increase there power before awakening fully.

Yeah, the idea of Alicia measuring her power didn't please Riful at all, but she could just have taken Clare, Jean and Galatea by force. (Galatea is definitely in Riful's plans as we saw in Riful's conversation with Clare)
If there is no difference between making you awake now or at any other time, because you are going to unleash all your potential anyway, she could just have taken them away to another place, out of Alicia's sense range and started the torture there.
But Riful was also very impressed by their united efforts which were able to defeat Duff, so she wouldn't harm them anymore because of that.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that one information totally contradict another.
I'm still not convinced, and this is one of the only uncertain points that I can see in the whole plot. (Not exactly a plothole, but a confusing issue)

Also, Rubel could just be trying to scary Clare, as he often does.

Galatea's ability to tweak yoki is that a learned skill or something from the yoma flesh she aquired? it's not something we ever learned so who really knows. Terresa sure never showed she has such a skill or for that matter that she was that generation's eye. Just leaves more questions than answers i guess.

My interpretation of Galatea's abilities:

Galatea excels at sensing yoki, thus can sense it with great details.
She can clearly see the yoki spreading from a blow. But in this same blow, there are places where the yoki flow is irregular.
By aligning her own yoki with these irregular spots in the blow, Galatea is able to manipualate a little of the blow's direction.
The exception of this would be when the opponent is attacking with its full power, so this breach wouldn't be possible, since there is so much energy in the opponents blow that the sensing of these irregular spots would be nearly impossible.

The "tweak", used to avoid one to awaken, is the manipulation of the yoki flow in order to lessen and stabilize the yoki, using the same basics (alignment of yoki).
It can be used in the same way to make one awaken too, with the reverse process (aka AB in the Northern campaign).

Galatea mastered this technique/specialization like no one.

We never heard something related to youma tissues, so I guess it is just an unusual and rare gift or aptitude.
That's why Galatea is so special and the Org couldn't get rid of her when they wanted.
Riful is also really interested about her abilities, for whatever she discovered that needs someone who can manipulate yoki.

-----------------

And about the stats, there is only a few points that I disagree with the evaluations.
Again, It's about our dear Galatea.

Galatea: No.3 (185 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: A
Sensing: A+
Leadership: B

Leadership, Mental, Strength and Agility are all Ok and well measured.

The issues are Yoki and Sensing.

Yoki:

Galatea herself said that from all Claymores, her strength is the most increased when she releases.
So that, her yoki should be evaluated as A+, to separate her from others A yoki Claymores, like Ophelia.

Sense:

Actually, her sense is Ok, it is an A+, a really powerful level. But analysing the complexity of her technique, I would say that she deserve an S.
Teresa's and Galatea's sense technique are very similar, they both sense the yoki flow in a really detailed way, the difference is that Galatea uses her sense to manipulate the yoki flow, while Teresa just does nothing with it, she only avoid the hits with her sense.
Maybe for Galatea, it's not the most efficient way to use her sense, but complexity-wise, it is a much more difficult task I guess.

Heck, Galatea should have EX in all her stats. :p

BaalChaamon

2007-10-16, 17:33

-----------------

And about the stats, there is only a few points that I disagree with the evaluations.
Again, It's about our dear Galatea.

Galatea: No.3 (185 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: A
Sensing: A+
Leadership: B

Leadership, Mental, Strength and Agility are all Ok and well measured.

The issues are Yoki and Sensing.

Yoki:

Galatea herself said that from all Claymores, her strength is the most increased when she releases.
So that, her yoki should be evaluated as A+, to separate her from others A yoki Claymores, like Ophelia.

Sense:

Actually, her sense is Ok, it is an A+, a really powerful level. But analysing the complexity of her technique, I would say that she deserve an S.
Teresa's and Galatea's sense technique are very similar, they both sense the yoki flow in a really detailed way, the difference is that Galatea uses her sense to manipulate the yoki flow, while Teresa just does nothing with it, she only avoid the hits with her sense.
Maybe for Galatea, it's not the most efficient way to use her sense, but complexity-wise, it is a much more difficult task I guess.

Heck, Galatea should have EX in all her stats. :p

I couldnt agree more on the last part :D

But i think you tackled the issue quite nicely with one major point IMO. Teresa's yoki sensing is highly concentrated on a small radius, another reason why she could not have acted as the eye for the Org. In the Teresa arc she ws only able to sense the Killing squad as they entered the town, wheras Galatea is able to sense Yoki miles and miles away from herself. Teresa's Yoki sensing, I think, is more of a passive ability, wheras Galatea's would be more active at least compared to Teresa's, whose ability is combat effective in contrast to Galatea's. But yes, regarding her sensing stat I woudl say she deserves an S, she probably has after the Pieta event and avoiding the Org. for 7 years.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-16, 18:57

Yeah, the idea of Alicia measuring her power didn't please Riful at all, but she could just have taken Clare, Jean and Galatea by force. (Galatea is definitely in Riful's plans as we saw in Riful's conversation with Clare)
If there is no difference between making you awake now or at any other time, because you are going to unleash all your potential anyway, she could just have taken them away to another place, out of Alicia's sense range and started the torture there.
But Riful was also very impressed by their united efforts which were able to defeat Duff, so she wouldn't harm them anymore because of that.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that one information totally contradict another.
I'm still not convinced, and this is one of the only uncertain points that I can see in the whole plot. (Not exactly a plothole, but a confusing issue)

They really don't contradict each other, because Riful VERY specifically tells Clare and Jean that they can improve, and ignores Galatea, as she is not partially awakened like those two.
So Jean and Clare were capable of increasing their base power while Galatea was not.

Priscilla, a powerful but normal Claymore, unleashed all her potential by awakening.

It is possible that Riful spared Galatea as a reward, she did only realize she needed Galatea after meeting Priscilla for the first time. So I am sure she was in no rush back then.

Also, Rubel could just be trying to scary Clare, as he often does.

Rubel often ends up helping people with his threats, I get the strange feeling he is actually helping them, for whatever reason he has. He warned Galatea about the new Eye, he gave lots of big hints to Clare during their time together, and even fudged a bit of information from the Organization regarding her.

My interpretation of Galatea's abilities:

Galatea excels at sensing yoki, thus can sense it with great details.
She can clearly see the yoki spreading from a blow. But in this same blow, there are places where the yoki flow is irregular.
By aligning her own yoki with these irregular spots in the blow, Galatea is able to manipualate a little of the blow's direction.
The exception of this would be when the opponent is attacking with its full power, so this breach wouldn't be possible, since there is so much energy in the opponents blow that the sensing of these irregular spots would be nearly impossible.

The "tweak", used to avoid one to awaken, is the manipulation of the yoki flow in order to lessen and stabilize the yoki, using the same basics (alignment of yoki).
It can be used in the same way to make one awaken too, with the reverse process (aka AB in the Northern campaign).

I agree.

Galatea mastered this technique/specialization like no one.

We never heard something related to youma tissues, so I guess it is just an unusual and rare gift or aptitude.
That's why Galatea is so special and the Org couldn't get rid of her when they wanted.
Riful is also really interested about her abilities, for whatever she discovered that needs someone who can manipulate yoki.

I believe that male AB in the north had just as much mastery, he could completely stop people from moving with his version of it and force people to awaken.

-----------------

And about the stats, there is only a few points that I disagree with the evaluations.
Again, It's about our dear Galatea.

Galatea: No.3 (185 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: A
Sensing: A+
Leadership: B

Leadership, Mental, Strength and Agility are all Ok and well measured.

The issues are Yoki and Sensing.

Yoki:

Galatea herself said that from all Claymores, her strength is the most increased when she releases.
So that, her yoki should be evaluated as A+, to separate her from others A yoki Claymores, like Ophelia.

The increasing of her Yoki could be a special ability of hers, they don't count plenty of the special abilities we have seen as part of the warrior's stats.

So I think A is fine.

Sense:

Actually, her sense is Ok, it is an A+, a really powerful level. But analysing the complexity of her technique, I would say that she deserve an S.
Teresa's and Galatea's sense technique are very similar, they both sense the yoki flow in a really detailed way, the difference is that Galatea uses her sense to manipulate the yoki flow, while Teresa just does nothing with it, she only avoid the hits with her sense.
Maybe for Galatea, it's not the most efficient way to use her sense, but complexity-wise, it is a much more difficult task I guess.

Not really, Galatea could not use her ability like Teresa could. Teresa used it as a danger sense, reacting instantly to a change in her opponents Yoki, Galatea may have had a longer range, but Teresa's ability was overall superior, as it was far less limited and offered immediate benefits.

Galatea became unable to defeat Dauf after her Yoki-manipulating trick failed, and from what we have seen, she is unable to do Teresa's branch of "danger-sensing" at all.

In the over-all scheme of things Teresa's ability is far superior to Galatea's.

Galatea's ability is just more specialized and focused on a single aspect, while Teresa's was much broader.

Heck, Galatea should have EX in all her stats. :p

PFfffff....not really. :p

Anh_Minh

2007-10-17, 00:28

are you saying that Tabitha is better at yoki sensing than clare?
It's shown she has better range. It doesn't mean she can do stuff like the Theresa or Galatea trick, though.

how can that be when it was clare who was able to sense Galatea from the range that she did in the slashers arc and that was what 5 or 6 miles or more? it's in both the anime and the manga so it stands to reason that clare's yoki sensing ability is very close to Galatea's wouldn't it? making her better for long range radar type duties.
No. Galatea was close enough to make precise readings of the Fab Four's emotional states. Clare could only vaguely feel a presence.

azurie

2007-10-17, 00:56

but tell me just exactly how close was that? it appeared to be several miles away way to far IMO for most claymores to even begin to sense yoki but if i'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time =)

Fate_Archer

2007-10-17, 01:00

By the way: you two are halfway there.
Rather than forcefully making you awaken now, leaving you to ripen a bit more and then reaping the results seems far more delicious.
Until you awaken... become stronger!
And then wake up.
That way you will become even stronger awakened beings!

When Riful said those words, the first thought that came to mind was about Priscilla.
If a Claymore becomes stronger, she awakes as an even more powerful AB.

So, noob Priscilla awakened as the most powerful thing that ever lived.

Imagine, that Priscilla along with her death squad succeeded in taking Teresa's head (in the most efficient way). Priscilla now becomes the number #1 of the current generation and really start her life as an Organization's Claymore and number #1.
Years later, after many battles that pushed her at her limit, experiences and dangerous situations, and even black cards, she is at the top of her apogee. Really achieved her (so talked) full potential. Nothing can stop her, she is that legendary warrior who some claimed that one day, would surpass Teresa. Here she is.

And one day, drastically, for some reason, she awakens. Yeah, Organization's worst nightmare.

This fictional awakened Priscilla, would be even more powerful than the Priscilla that we actually know, according to Riful's words.

So, there is no way that Priscilla unleashed all her potential back then when she awakened.

And this is the most logic conclusion, awakening should increase a Claymore's power in the ratio of the power that she already has.
How can you unleash all the potential that one day, you COULD achieve?

If Clare awakened in Rabona's cathedral, I guess that, aside from not having Irene's arm, the resulting awakened being wouldn't come close to the one that we almost saw in the northern campaign.
Because she evolved, passed through more battles, experiences (faced an Abyssal and survived), and finally fought in a suicide battle with little hope (northern campaign).

That's evolution, the development of skills, survival instinct, strength, yoki, speed, mentality, (...)...in other words, potential.
That's what makes them stronger.

So, finally, we have:

Rubel who says that no matter when one awake, one will unleash all its potential.

Riful who says that when one awake, its power will be proportional to the power that one had in the exact moment one awoke.

The odds, this time, are against Rubel, IMO.

It is possible that Riful spared Galatea as a reward, she did only realize she needed Galatea after meeting Priscilla for the first time. So I am sure she was in no rush back then.

Actually, Jean was the reward. But that's not the case. :p
Riful realized she needed Galatea after finding that interesting thing that she claims to almost restore the balance of power.

I believe that male AB in the north had just as much mastery, he could completely stop people from moving with his version of it and force people to awaken.

Yeah, but Galatea owns him. :)

The increasing of her Yoki could be a special ability of hers, they don't count plenty of the special abilities we have seen as part of the warrior's stats.

So I think A is fine.

True, it could be an ability related to her mastery at manipulating yoki or she never told the Organization about it.
The only thing that can hide from the eye, is the eye itself.

Not really, Galatea could not use her ability like Teresa could. Teresa used it as a danger sense, reacting instantly to a change in her opponents Yoki, Galatea may have had a longer range, but Teresa's ability was overall superior, as it was far less limited and offered immediate benefits.

I agree that Teresa's ability is much more efficient. Avoid an attack by yourself is much more reliable than relying in the opponent's miss.
But it also have the same weakness of Galatea's ability: the excess of yoki.
While Galatea is unable to align her yoki, Teresa is unable to thoroughly sense it, like the time when Priscilla released so much yoki, that Teresa couldn't sense where the next hit was coming.
So, Teresa's ability is not that superior.

Galatea became unable to defeat Dauf after her Yoki-manipulating trick failed, and from what we have seen, she is unable to do Teresa's branch of "danger-sensing" at all.

Yeah, if it wasn't by Riful, who told him exactly how Galatea was tricking him. And she really cheered him on after that.
Also, I believe Galatea could learn Teresa's ability. She has the most important tool.
She only needs to improve her reaction time and speed in order to do like Teresa. I'm talking about possibilities here, hopefully, she trained this in these 7 years.

Galatea's ability is just more specialized and focused on a single aspect, while Teresa's was much broader.

First part is true, but I would say the contrary on the second part.

PFfffff....not really. :p

Galatea: No.3 (185 CM Tall)

Beauty: EX+
Graciousness: EX+
Glamorousness: EX+
Pleasantness: EX+
Adorableness: EX+
Hotness: EX+

I dare you to speak that again!!! :D

Flar

2007-10-17, 04:35

Galatea may have had a longer range, but Teresa's ability was overall superior, as it was far less limited and offered immediate benefits.Teresa was probably superior in range too, when she was still a trainee she sensed Raphaella from one town away. I don't see any reason she couldn't be the eye of her generation.

brutalman

2007-10-17, 06:30

Mental does = willpower, just as BaalChaamon stated.

If this is the case, then Clare's rating for Mental can't ever have been right:

Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: E

Clare's defining personality trait from the start has been her shounen-hero "Iron Resolve" - she's a fanatic! We see this when she's still human when she walks off a cliff to follow Teresa, and it's there all the way through the series. She reminds me of the terminator:

That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

Rubel is noticing it in ES4, so he should have reported it. I suppose it could be possible that Clare's low stats are because Rubel has never reported her increase in ability. He does seem to have ideas of his own.

DazarGaidin

2007-10-17, 07:41

I think clare can sense farther than anyone besides galatea, due to her yoki sensing specialty she inherited, but it is just a vague feeling for her at range. People who specialize can garner more precise information at a distance. Even galatea was amazed someone detected her at hat distance, but clare shrugs it off as maybe her imagination (in contrast galatea could tell you their dna sequence :P)

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-17, 08:44

When Riful said those words, the first thought that came to mind was about Priscilla.
If a Claymore becomes stronger, she awakes as an even more powerful AB.

So, noob Priscilla awakened as the most powerful thing that ever lived.

Imagine, that Priscilla along with her death squad succeeded in taking Teresa's head (in the most efficient way). Priscilla now becomes the number #1 of the current generation and really start her life as an Organization's Claymore and number #1.
Years later, after many battles that pushed her at her limit, experiences and dangerous situations, and even black cards, she is at the top of her apogee. Really achieved her (so talked) full potential. Nothing can stop her, she is that legendary warrior who some claimed that one day, would surpass Teresa. Here she is.

And one day, drastically, for some reason, she awakens. Yeah, Organization's worst nightmare.

This fictional awakened Priscilla, would be even more powerful than the Priscilla that we actually know, according to Riful's words.

So, there is no way that Priscilla unleashed all her potential back then when she awakened.

And this is the most logic conclusion, awakening should increase a Claymore's power in the ratio of the power that she already has.
How can you unleash all the potential that one day, you COULD achieve?

This entire theory here is shot down by the simple fact that Riful's words were for directed towards the partially awakened only hence the "half-way there."

Priscilla unlocked all here latent potential, but partially awakened Claymores increase there natural potential, making themselves stronger then they were before.

If Clare awakened in Rabona's cathedral, I guess that, aside from not having Irene's arm, the resulting awakened being wouldn't come close to the one that we almost saw in the northern campaign.
Because she evolved, passed through more battles, experiences (faced an Abyssal and survived), and finally fought in a suicide battle with little hope (northern campaign).

This also fits into my theory, and Riful's words, Clare went over her limit how many times between Rabona and the War in the North? More then a few times I am sure.

That's evolution, the development of skills, survival instinct, strength, yoki, speed, mentality, (...)...in other words, potential.
That's what makes them stronger.

That may be true, but the problem is, there are two types of potential we have now;

Normal Warrior's Potential
and
Partially-Awakened Potential

A normal warrior unlocks all there potential by awakening while a partially-awakened warrior gains more and more strength the longer she goes without awakening, because she is "half-way there."

So, finally, we have:

Rubel who says that no matter when one awake, one will unleash all its potential.

Riful who says that when one awake, its power will be proportional to the power that one had in the exact moment one awoke.

The odds, this time, are against Rubel, IMO.

As I said, they both could be quite correct, Riful only stated this fact towards two people out of 3, and those two were partially-awakened.

Actually, Jean was the reward. But that's not the case. :p
Riful realized she needed Galatea after finding that interesting thing that she claims to almost restore the balance of power.

I think the biggest reward was sparring them all for there hard efforts, but Jean sure was a kind bonus from Riful-chan.

Yeah, but Galatea owns him. :)

Maybe overall, but not Yoki-manipulation wise.

True, it could be an ability related to her mastery at manipulating yoki or she never told the Organization about it.
The only thing that can hide from the eye, is the eye itself.

Something along those lines.

I agree that Teresa's ability is much more efficient. Avoid an attack by yourself is much more reliable than relying in the opponent's miss.
But it also have the same weakness of Galatea's ability: the excess of yoki.
While Galatea is unable to align her yoki, Teresa is unable to thoroughly sense it, like the time when Priscilla released so much yoki, that Teresa couldn't sense where the next hit was coming.
So, Teresa's ability is not that superior.

Teresa's ability was superior, because only someone with Priscilla's level off power, (in other words no-one else in the series) can produce that much power to overwhelm Teresa's senses.
While with Galatea, anyone with a decent amount of Yoki could overwhelm her ability simply by focusing their energy.

Yeah, if it wasn't by Riful, who told him exactly how Galatea was tricking him. And she really cheered him on after that.
Also, I believe Galatea could learn Teresa's ability. She has the most important tool.
She only needs to improve her reaction time and speed in order to do like Teresa. I'm talking about possibilities here, hopefully, she trained this in these 7 years.

It is quite possible, on the reverse side Teresa could learn the exact same skill Galatea has, and could probably do it better. Not sure how Galatea would train up a "danger-sense" Yoki skill without any help though.

First part is true, but I would say the contrary on the second part.

As far as usefulness in the skill, Teresa's technique was overall more useful.

Galatea: No.3 (185 CM Tall)

Beauty: EX+
Graciousness: EX+
Glamorousness: EX+
Pleasantness: EX+
Adorableness: EX+
Hotness: EX+

I dare you to speak that again!!! :D

"cough"

Galatea: No.3 (185 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: A
Sensing: A+
Leadership: B

I dared, I dared. :heh:

She is quite the looker i'll admit, but Miria is my preffered type.

-----------------------------------

BTW for the Clare's Yoki-sensing range thing, Clare may be superior to Cynthia at Yoki-sensing detail but Cynthia could indeed have longer range.

Galatea has them both beat in their respective categories however.

Clare's mental actually fits the bill quite well, how many times has she lost control in the series? If it weren't for people bailing her out (Raki, Galatea, Jean) she would have awoken by now and ceased to be. Her Mental score certainly improved after training with Irene though, but as Irene said "You already appear calm on the surface but your real heart is a whirlpool of passion."

azurie

2007-10-17, 17:10

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-17, 17:29

i wouldn't call that passion or a whirlpool either more like a raging infirno of pent up agression and rage towards Priscilla (at that time) and now who knows what she has her mental may be drastically different then before.

I would hope that 7 years of hanging around with Miria would have cooled her head a bit, and judging by her confrontation with Riful, she is significantly more cool-headed. :D

azurie

2007-10-17, 17:39

well 7 years of living in the ice and snow would cool anyone's hot head off some geesh.

. . . . . hmm wonder if she needs a warm body now . . .*ponders* LADIES!!!!!

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-17, 20:40

Hey! Miria is mine :frustrated:

You can have your pick from the rest :P :heh:

Tempest35

2007-10-17, 23:52

Fate_Archer

2007-10-17, 23:56

Teresa was probably superior in range too, when she was still a trainee she sensed Raphaella from one town away. I don't see any reason she couldn't be the eye of her generation.

Little Teresa often gone rogue and fled from her training. So she could just be around or passing by.
That forest where Teresa tracked Raphaela's yoki was around the closest town from the Org, in a moderate distant, as stated by Raphaela.
But it's still amazing how she tracked such low amount of Yoki from Raphaela, who's nobody-knows how much time repressing her yoki.

This entire theory here is shot down by the simple fact that Riful's words were for directed towards the partially awakened only hence the "half-way there."

Priscilla unlocked all here latent potential, but partially awakened Claymores increase there natural potential, making themselves stronger then they were before.

Ok, so lets say that instead of Priscilla awakening after that tragic episode where Teresa lost her head, she somehow managed to go back to her Claymore form.
Now she is a partially awakened Claymore, and naturally, is even stronger than before.

And then, drastically, she awakens a few days later.

So, this new Priscilla would be stronger than the Priscilla that awakened right after killing Teresa, isn't it?

See, that's the point.
If Priscilla could be stronger, she haven't unleashed all her latent potential. Priscilla unleashed all the powers that she had at that very moment, and maybe, something more. (Like why only her yoki jumped from A+ to Ex?)
Rubel's statement would be right only if he meant this.
But he used the word potential.

Potential is the ability or possibility to evolve and develop.

Anyway, maybe we better wait for the next statement regarding this subject.
These databooks might have some information about that, especially in the pages about Priscilla and the process of awakening.

That may be true, but the problem is, there are two types of potential we have now;

Normal Warrior's Potential
and
Partially-Awakened Potential

A normal warrior unlocks all there potential by awakening while a partially-awakened warrior gains more and more strength the longer she goes without awakening, because she is "half-way there."

I'm not sure if there are really two types of potential as you say.
I just think potential is potential.

Regarding this, both half-awaken and regular Claymores can develop their strength, speed, mental resistance and willpower, and most of their other traits in the same way. (training, fighting, hunting)
Yoki is the only trait that would be more difficult for regular Claymores to develop, since Yoki is greatly increased only when they pass their limits.

So, I don't see any difference beyond that.

Maybe overall, but not Yoki-manipulation wise.

Ok, but note that it becomes much easier to make someone awake when you have the yoki of an AB, as stated by Clare.
Aligning yoki directly with an AB, like that guy did, would make the yoki level of a Claymore go very high or by aligning the yoki, he could manipulate the flow as he wanted, making a Claymore attack her comrades or even making her awake.

Teresa's ability was superior, because only someone with Priscilla's level off power, (in other words no-one else in the series) can produce that much power to overwhelm Teresa's senses.

It is better, but not in all circumstances. For example, lets pick that small and very limited place and the opponent being Duff, who can fire projectiles.
With the little space for running and evading, Teresa's skill in that situation, wouldn't be the best suited.
Duff could just fire his poles all the day long against Teresa and she would be able to just try to avoid the poles or reflect them, in that tight place, I guess. (Well, one time Duff would be tired and would stop producing his poles, but even so...)
In the other way, Galatea can just change the place of the target or simply shut Duff's mouth, avoiding the poles without moving a muscle.
Yeah, there was a time where Galatea's technique became useless, but when it worked, she was seriously kicking Duff's ass.
Heck, Galatea could just give her back and walk away while she laughs (internally) of Duff's miss.
Clare, who inherited Teresa's technique, could just have her legs squashed by Duff's pole.
All in all, Teresa's ability is better for most scenarios, I guess, but it really depends.

And also, besides Priscilla, there are serious candidates for this level of yoki, like Alicia and Beth, probably Miata and the way the things are going, there are probably more mental-disturbed but powerful girls waiting too.

While with Galatea, anyone with a decent amount of Yoki could overwhelm her ability simply by focusing their energy.

Theoretically yes, you are right.

It is quite possible, on the reverse side Teresa could learn the exact same skill Galatea has, and could probably do it better.

It's possible I think, but it would be much more complex to learn, I believe. If she could make better, I won't try to guess. :p

Not sure how Galatea would train up a "danger-sense" Yoki skill without any help though.

In the same way Teresa developed hers. All alone and Killing lots of yomas, I guess. Teresa was known as the type of Claymore who doesn't like to be along with others.
And there isn't the really need of comrades. Yomas and AB are perfect for this kind of training, they have yoki after all.

When the opponent is coming for the blow, she just need to predict the opponents move by sensing the yoma flow, and evade it.
The prediction is not quite the problem, I would say that speed and reflexes are the points that Galatea should train.
Galatea has the profile needed for such technique. But it becomes stupidity evading an attack that you could just make don't hit you.
Anyway, if Galatea really wants this technique, she would have to do this.

Just Yomas are fine, the things Teresa mostly killed (or what we have seen Teresa killing) were Yomas. The only time we saw Teresa facing an AB was against Rosemary, and it was supposed to be just a black card.

She is quite the looker i'll admit, but Miria is my preffered type.

I see. :)

BTW for the Clare's Yoki-sensing range thing, Clare may be superior to Cynthia at Yoki-sensing detail but Cynthia could indeed have longer range.

I think you meant Tabitha.
Cynthia is the defensive number #14 with double pony-tail. ;)

----------------

About the Clare's low stats thing:

Well, she is the Organization's number #47.
This should answer most of the questions.

Flar

2007-10-18, 01:04

But it's still amazing how she tracked such low amount of Yoki from Raphaela, who's nobody-knows how much time repressing her yoki.Yeah, especially when intensity and range of perception are linked, as we see when Galatea senses Isley and Luciela. It seems to be like sound: the fainter it is, the closest you have to be. I guess it also applies to Yoki perception and Yoki sense: you can hear a sound from afar without understanding what it means, and you can be near deaf yet still understand what the sound means.

So, this new Priscilla would be stronger than the Priscilla that awakened right after killing Teresa, isn't it?Yes, that's what Riful has been saying. This is consistent with the fact that single digits make strong AB, yet low number claymores can start from a low number, improve and become single digits.

Rubul could lie or be wrong, he's not the author.

About the Clare's low stats thing:

Well, she is the Organization's number #47.
This should answer most of the questions.So, what would Clare's stats be right now? And what about the other Ghost 7 after these seven years of hellish training?

I say For Clare

Yoki: A+
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: A+
Leadership: E

dee32

2007-10-18, 02:45

So, what would Clare's stats be right now? And what about the other Ghost 7 after these seven years of hellish training?

I say For Clare

Yoki: A+
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: B
Sensing: A+
Leadership: E

I think after 7 years of hard training everyone at lease should have at lease one "A" in there stats all execpt Yuma of course. Everyone Mental and Sensing should be up. Since it would take great mental strength to erase Yoki auras and with there auras erased there senses should be sharper.

Miria

Yoki: A
Agility: A+
Strength: B
Mental: A
Sensing:B
Leadership: S
------------------
Deneve

Yoki: B+
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: B
Sensing: B
Leadership: B+
--------------------
Helen

Yoki: C+
Agility: A
Strength: B+
Mental: B
Sensing:C+
Leadership: D
--------------------
Cynthia

Yoki: C+
Agility: B
Strength: B
Mental: A
Sensing: B+
Leadership: B+
---------------------
Tabitha

Yoki: C
Agility:B+
Strength: C+
Mental: B+
Sensing: A
Leadership: E
------------------------
Yuma

Yoki: D
Agility: D
Strength: C
Mental: C
Sensing: C
Leadership: E
------------------------
Clare

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: B+
Sensing: A+
Leadership: C

brutalman

2007-10-18, 03:26

About the Clare's low stats thing:

Well, she is the Organization's number #47.
This should answer most of the questions.

The point is that the Org rates her as 47, it's that these were the Org's ratings for her just before Pieta. She was obviously a whole lot stronger than 47 by then.

Imba

2007-10-18, 04:54

NoSanninWa

2007-10-18, 05:51

I rely wonder , who will win Duff or Rigardo. We all saw how powerfull Duff is , and the spines that he shoots are devastating , but we did not had a chance to see if he is fast and agile enough to match Rigardo`s speed ... if he needs to match it at all.
Sorry for my english.
Honestly, I can't see how this is really in question. Galatea + Jean + Clare totally beat Duff.

By Contrast Miria + Helen + Deneve + Clare were all totally getting their butts kicked without a prayer of even scratching Rigardo until Clare Awoke. You can argue that Galatea is stronger than Mira if you want to, but honestly Miria was being so totally pwned by Rigardo. Even if Galatea is stronger than Miria, she isn't enough stronger to make Miria look weak.

No contest.

brutalman

2007-10-18, 06:05

The only way I could see Duph having a chance is if Rigardo couldn't actually penetrate his armour. Rigardo always seemed to be more about speed than strength, and Duph's skin was pretty tough.

Even if he couldn't cut straight through Duphs's skin, I'd still bet on Rigardo. He had a functioning brain.

NoSanninWa

2007-10-18, 06:08

Duff has a functioning brain also! It's his girlfriend's. :love: As long as she's around he's happy to let her do his thinking for him.

azurie

2007-10-18, 06:13

*swoops in on Fenrir* EHHHH!? *gnaws*

I've let you have the thread but that's taking it tooooo far, buddy. XP~~

And Clare's still very much a hot-head - just a bit stronger and more focused. Miria and Deneve even set up a buddy system with Yuma for Clare so they can keep track of her. awww. I think Miria watches her more than anyone though and no, that's not speaking from a shoujou-ai perspective (although it wouldn't hurt...) :heh:

She's probably the only one who can take Clare out without getting sliced to bits anyway.
you have a point there since Miria was (while active in the org.) the higher ranked warrior thus making her the more skilled so to speak. she stood the better chance against what clare is now which as i can tell is beyond what any of them are. Clare that i would hazard a guess is closer to an AB than any of the other 6 who are either just normal claymores or half awakeneds plus clare did follow Rifil's advice though she did so without meaning to.

Imba

2007-10-18, 06:18

But Galatea was owned by Duff (when Clare went to rescue Jean). And Duff did not want to kill them and he did not have space to move around and dodge their atacks and so. And Undine was able to block Rigardos atack so he may have hard time causing any damage to Duff

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-18, 08:08

Little Teresa often gone rogue and fled from her training. So she could just be around or passing by.
That forest where Teresa tracked Raphaela's yoki was around the closest town from the Org, in a moderate distant, as stated by Raphaela.
But it's still amazing how she tracked such low amount of Yoki from Raphaela, who's nobody-knows how much time repressing her yoki.

Rafaela was still amazed by Teresa's immense range when she was still just a trainee though, and a town away is still a town away, especially in a medieval setting.

Ok, so lets say that instead of Priscilla awakening after that tragic episode where Teresa lost her head, she somehow managed to go back to her Claymore form.
Now she is a partially awakened Claymore, and naturally, is even stronger than before.

And then, drastically, she awakens a few days later.

So, this new Priscilla would be stronger than the Priscilla that awakened right after killing Teresa, isn't it?

Yes, something along those lines.

See, that's the point.
If Priscilla could be stronger, she haven't unleashed all her latent potential. Priscilla unleashed all the powers that she had at that very moment, and maybe, something more. (Like why only her yoki jumped from A+ to Ex?)
Rubel's statement would be right only if he meant this.
But he used the word potential.

Potential is the ability or possibility to evolve and develop.

Let me rephrase that, partially awakening is unnatural potential when Priscilla awakened she unleashed all her natural potential and went from a A+ Yoki to EX, which is higher then anything else in the series.

Anyway, maybe we better wait for the next statement regarding this subject.
These databooks might have some information about that, especially in the pages about Priscilla and the process of awakening.

Think this will be the last data book for a while. :(

I'm not sure if there are really two types of potential as you say.
I just think potential is potential.

I explained it above, what the partially-awakened are doing is something BEYOND the norm, something that should not be possible.

Regarding this, both half-awaken and regular Claymores can develop their strength, speed, mental resistance and willpower, and most of their other traits in the same way. (training, fighting, hunting)
Yoki is the only trait that would be more difficult for regular Claymores to develop, since Yoki is greatly increased only when they pass their limits.

So, I don't see any difference beyond that.

Up to a certain point, but strength, speed, agility, yoki, are all affected by the partial awakening, as we have seen with Deneve, and Helen; partially-awakening affects there physical abilities as well.

Clare did not start to advance in any of her physical areas till after she partially awakened, so we can assume that she had hit her limit in that department.

Not to mention Yoki is probably the most important stat of all, because it increases all other physical stats when used.

Ok, but note that it becomes much easier to make someone awake when you have the yoki of an AB, as stated by Clare.
Aligning yoki directly with an AB, like that guy did, would make the yoki level of a Claymore go very high or by aligning the yoki, he could manipulate the flow as he wanted, making a Claymore attack her comrades or even making her awake.

Considering the experience gap between that AB and Galatea, I am being pretty generous in saying that Galatea was about as skilled as he was, but he was able to manipulate multiple Claymores at once as well, something we are not sure if Galatea is capable of.

It is better, but not in all circumstances. For example, lets pick that small and very limited place and the opponent being Duff, who can fire projectiles.
With the little space for running and evading, Teresa's skill in that situation, wouldn't be the best suited.
Duff could just fire his poles all the day long against Teresa and she would be able to just try to avoid the poles or reflect them, in that tight place, I guess. (Well, one time Duff would be tired and would stop producing his poles, but even so...)

As Clare demonstrated in her first battle against an AB, it only takes minimal effort to dodge a large amount of attacks with Yoki-sensing, Teresa could probably simply walk up to Dauf through the storm of projectiles. Not to mention that limited space also affected Dauf's ability to fight effectively.

In the other way, Galatea can just change the place of the target or simply shut Duff's mouth, avoiding the poles without moving a muscle.
Yeah, there was a time where Galatea's technique became useless, but when it worked, she was seriously kicking Duff's ass.
Heck, Galatea could just give her back and walk away while she laughs (internally) of Duff's miss.
Clare, who inherited Teresa's technique, could just have her legs squashed by Duff's pole.
All in all, Teresa's ability is better for most scenarios, I guess, but it really depends.

As I said, it is specialization, it will works great when it works, but it works far less often, and in fewer scenarios.

Clare is also no were near as good as Teresa in the Yoki-sensing thing, or anywhere near as powerful as even Galatea at the time.

And also, besides Priscilla, there are serious candidates for this level of yoki, like Alicia and Beth, probably Miata and the way the things are going, there are probably more mental-disturbed but powerful girls waiting too.

There are other candidates yes, but we have no confirmation of any of them being stronger then 70%+ Priscilla, as at this point, Priscilla was generating more Yoki then a #2 AB (Rosemary) judging by Teresa's reaction to Priscilla at that point.

My money is on Miata :P

Theoretically yes, you are right.

:D

It's possible I think, but it would be much more complex to learn, I believe. If she could make better, I won't try to guess. :p

I would just think it would be more time consuming, and not really necessary for someone of Teresa's level, although Clare could stand to learn it I would think, if she has calmed down enough for it.

In the same way Teresa developed hers. All alone and Killing lots of yomas, I guess. Teresa was known as the type of Claymore who doesn't like to be along with others.
And there isn't the really need of comrades. Yomas and AB are perfect for this kind of training, they have yoki after all.

When the opponent is coming for the blow, she just need to predict the opponents move by sensing the yoma flow, and evade it.
The prediction is not quite the problem, I would say that speed and reflexes are the points that Galatea should train.
Galatea has the profile needed for such technique. But it becomes stupidity evading an attack that you could just make don't hit you.
Anyway, if Galatea really wants this technique, she would have to do this.

Just Yomas are fine, the things Teresa mostly killed (or what we have seen Teresa killing) were Yomas. The only time we saw Teresa facing an AB was against Rosemary, and it was supposed to be just a black card.

True enough, but I wonder if Galatea has the time to do that with the Organization breathing down her neck.

I see. :)

Rawr, I'll even fight tempest35 off for her, i'm a martial artists and not afraid to use my training :eyespin:

I think you meant Tabitha.
Cynthia is the defensive number #14 with double pony-tail. ;)

Right, i'm bad with names sometimes >.<

About the Clare's low stats thing:

Well, she is the Organization's number #47.
This should answer most of the questions.

Indeed, but they obviously knew about Clare's quick sword judging by her profile, so they must have known their stats were behind on her.

-------------------------

As for Rigaldo vs Dauf, we never got to see Dauf fight at full strength really, he was trapped in a small area that limited his mobility and allowed his opponent to attack him from weird angles. I imagine Dauf is alot more dangerous in an open area, when dodging actually becomes an option for something as big as him.

Rigaldo was indeed a speed demon, but Dauf's armor and range advantage could well make the difference.

It is hard to judge overall though, as we have never really seen Dauf fight all-out in a situation that does not put him at a disadvantage.

khryoleoz

2007-10-18, 10:16

I'm a little late contributing to this thread, so much of what I say was probably already brought up by others.

So Alicia and Beth are actually the strongest Claymores in history (even without talking about the "awaken" tip). No need to discuss more, facts are here.

(and therefore, Teresa even if awakened is no deal for the Abyssals and so, the Priscilla that kicked Luciela).

Yeah, well if these are stats derived from the org's measurement, I'll say again that they've been duped concerning Teresa's who hid from them the full extent of her own potential rather well.

The question I would ask is how substantial the differences are between that A and A+. If it's a small degree and if it is true that it is that single attribute in which Teresa's quality is S class that gives her the edge, then it is on that level that she bests the twins.

We should factor in that Alicia "awakens" in order to be that Abyssal threat, so her stats are going to change accordingly. Unfortunately, we don't seem to have any of the Abyssal's stats yet, and can only assume where they "would be" inferior to Priscilla's for now.

It is also mentioned that Priscilla was ideal for fighting Teresa because Teresa could not detect her Yoki, but we all know that plan went straight to hell when Priscilla gave herself away and they all released Yoki in hopes of overwhelming her (and thus screwing themselves even more.)
In case this is not so obvious, Priscilla wasn't expected to be ideal for this fight by simply being able to completely supress her yoki alone (normal people emit no yoki but can't hope to be a threat to Teresa). Her raw fighting abilities must be on par with Teresa's. They pit her against Teresa under those assumptions, which indicates that they've completely underestimated Teresa, and did so likely because they just hadn't a clue about what a wonderful person Teresa is.

I was thinking the same even before these databooks showed up. Following the logic that every time you get close to awake and go back, you become stronger, hence the superiority of the semi-awakened, the return from a complete awakening would turn Alicia each time even more stronger.
So, powerful enough, Alicia can still evolve, while Riful, Easley and even Priscilla are predestined to stay on their same levels.

If that's true, it would make much sense all investments, sacrifices and the time spent by the Org on these two.
I've followed your reasoning up to this point. We seem to agree that awakening is the END of yoki release, so having awakened, ABs are fixed at that power level. They can supress it if they choose but in terms of their raw power the AOs can't hope to become better than Priscilla. What Alicia does is "awaken". So she is at her full potential in that state. Soul-linking w/Beth only allows the preservation of her human consciousness and the return to the "unawakened" state. So other than becoming more competent at "awakening" and "sleeping", I can't see how repeating this process will make her stronger over time.

PGilis

2007-10-18, 11:26

As far i can tell, these stats are not something to rely too much. They just considerate the most known Claymores, not the remaining from the 47 claymores, or youmas, or humans (even thought probably they will suck at zero! :p).

Besides, looking the story of the organization, i'd say they choose positions more according Physical Power than mental Power. Just look the number who Priscilla, Ophelia and later Miata got, even thought they're crazy bitches. :p

The same goes to the choice of leaders on hunting groups. The lowest number (highest rank) allways become the leader. Unless, of course, the highest ranking is a imature newbie not completely reliable like Priscilla or Miata. So, there's some exceptions to the rule.

So, i think great leadership and willpower would work better as Special Traits than as Stats.

Sassarai

2007-10-18, 11:51

As far i can tell, these stats are not something to rely too much. They just considerate the most known Claymores, not the remaining from the 47 claymores, or youmas, or humans (even thought probably they will suck at zero! :p).

Yea Seriously stats are only useful in Role playing games -_-. That's why I spent like 2 years leveling on up crabs, bunnies, mandoragas, pink birds, etc. LEVEL UP!!

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-18, 12:02

I'm a little late contributing to this thread, so much of what I say was probably already brought up by others.

It is never too late to state your opinion! :D

Yeah, well if these are stats derived from the org's measurement, I'll say again that they've been duped concerning Teresa's who hid from them the full extent of her own potential rather well.

I highly doubt they were completely in the dark, the situation with Rosemary indirectly Guarantees that the Organization knew something.

The question I would ask is how substantial the differences are between that A and A+. If it's a small degree and if it is true that it is that single attribute in which Teresa's quality is S class that gives her the edge, then it is on that level that she bests the twins.

I really think Teresa is superior purely off her Yoki "danger-sense" skill.

We should factor in that Alicia "awakens" in order to be that Abyssal threat, so her stats are going to change accordingly. Unfortunately, we don't seem to have any of the Abyssal's stats yet, and can only assume where they "would be" inferior to Priscilla's for now.

Yeah, we can assume that they are inferior to Priscilla, unless you consider that only Isley, Riful, and now the fab 4 know of Priscilla's true strength. So Priscilla's stats could be just as fudged as Teresa's.

In case this is not so obvious, Priscilla wasn't expected to be ideal for this fight by simply being able to completely supress her yoki alone (normal people emit no yoki but can't hope to be a threat to Teresa). Her raw fighting abilities must be on par with Teresa's. They pit her against Teresa under those assumptions, which indicates that they've completely underestimated Teresa, and did so likely because they just hadn't a clue about what a wonderful person Teresa is.

Except there entire plan revolved around taking Teresa by surprise; Irene herself said that Priscilla was ideal for fighting Teresa due to her ability to hide her Yoki.

I've followed your reasoning up to this point. We seem to agree that awakening is the END of yoki release, so having awakened, ABs are fixed at that power level. They can supress it if they choose but in terms of their raw power the AOs can't hope to become better than Priscilla. What Alicia does is "awaken". So she is at her full potential in that state. Soul-linking w/Beth only allows the preservation of her human consciousness and the return to the "unawakened" state. So other than becoming more competent at "awakening" and "sleeping", I can't see how repeating this process will make her stronger over time.

That is an interesting alternative, Alicia may have unintentionally locked herself at current level by doing the "controlled" awakening, but there is also the possibility it just makes her stronger, time will tell.

As far i can tell, these stats are not something to rely too much. They just considerate the most known Claymores, not the remaining from the 47 claymores, or youmas, or humans (even thought probably they will suck at zero! ).

Besides, looking the story of the organization, I'd say they choose positions more according Physical Power than mental Power. Just look the number who Priscilla, Ophelia and later Miata got, even thought they're crazy bitches.

The same goes to the choice of leaders on hunting groups. The lowest number (highest rank) allways become the leader. Unless, of course, the highest ranking is a imature newbie not completely reliable like Priscilla or Miata. So, there's some exceptions to the rule.

So, i think great leadership and willpower would work better as Special Traits than as Stats.

The stats are good for comparing the power levels of Claymore to Claymore.

They do indeed choose depending on power, but they seem to keep good track of people who do display good leadership ability, such as Miria.

So I think that displaying willpower and leadership would help the Organization's "Handlers" make decisions.

Also this is from accessBR from Narutoforum:

Some things I noticed:
* Alicia and Beth are neither Offensive or Defensive! They are 特殊型 (exclusive/unique type)
* Easley, Riful and Luciela were all Offensive.
* Miata is Offensive, Audrey is Defensive, Rachel - obviously - is Offensive.
* Undine has a title \o/\o/\o/\o/\o/ And I believe I am the only one who cares \o/\o/...
People should love Undine more... oh, well: "双剣のウンディーネ" (souken no Undine = "Undine of the Twin Swords" / or "Pair of Swords")

Alicia and Beth are truly unique, for they are neither Offensive or Defensive warriors.
We know that all the Abyssal Ones are Offensive now.
and we get Undine's title! :cool:

----------

On a separate note. These are my feelings over the time-skip fab 4.

Miria

Yoki: A
Agility: S
Strength: B
Mental: A
Sensing:B
Leadership: A+

Notes: She has undoubtedly improved much over the years, and her new Phantom ability increase her base speed, rather then being a special technique like it was before. I kept her leadership the same because I am not sure how much better her commanding can get, I am not even sure what an S leadership would be like. :confused:

------------------
Deneve

Yoki: B+
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: B
Sensing: B
Leadership: B

Notes: I would think that she would be quite the all rounder now-days, my guess is she spent alot of time improving her strength to adopt Undine's twin-sword style. She also apparently works quite well with the other members of the 7 ghosts, so her teamwork and leadership skills must have taken turn for the better.

--------------------

Helen

Yoki: B
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: B
Sensing:C+
Leadership: C

Notes: Both her strength and agility appear to have taken a turn for the better, and she seems to have passed the "rubbing people the wrong way" phase that kept her leadership down.

------------------------
Clare

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: B+
Sensing: A+
Leadership: C

Notes: As far as Physical stats go, she is close to even with Miria, her Yoki-sensing is probably getting close to Galatea's level and her stats all around seem to have improved greatly since her early Organization days.

I won't comment about the other 3 as we have not really seen them in action post-time skip, so ill withhold judgment on them, although Tabitha seems to have quite the Yoki-sensing score as well.

khryoleoz

2007-10-18, 12:41

I highly doubt they were completely in the dark, the situation with Rosemary indirectly Guarantees that the Organization knew something. What the scene shows is that Ordsay (the handler and person closest to her) is dubious about what Teresa explained as what happened to her. That is far from "knowing", and how can they when she's keeping it a secret. Anything they would know would be vague and incomplete.

I really think Teresa is superior purely off her Yoki "danger-sense" skill.It's enough only when the situation requires the reading of yoki flow. But that's why I deny those stats of Teresa's and privately believe they're higher. I've a vested interest in that being a stubborn Teresa fanatic. ;)

Yeah, we can assume that they are inferior to Priscilla, unless you consider that only Isley, Riful, and now the fab 4 know of Priscilla's true strength. So Priscilla's stats could be just as fudged as Teresa's.I don't get this one. Was Priscilla keeping her potential a secret from anyone too? If the org knew of her latent potential well, then they'd probably be able to closely estimate her levels as an AB.

Except there entire plan revolved around taking Teresa by surprise; Irene herself said that Priscilla was ideal for fighting Teresa due to her ability to hide her Yoki.We do know that the plan ended in failure. I'm saying that it was inevitable because of two factors they did not or could not predict: 1) Teresa was much much better than they anticipated even in a surprise attack, 2) Priscilla was not as reliable and actually became an even worse threat.

Sassarai

2007-10-18, 12:58

Gooral

2007-10-18, 13:48

I put restrain on myself to not argue about Priscilla vs Teresa anymore so I will only write that on that matter I agree with khryoleoz.
Let me rephrase that, partially awakening is unnatural potential when Priscilla awakened she unleashed all her natural potential and went from a A+ Yoki to EX, which is higher then anything else in the series.
I agree with Fate_Archer on that. To me potential is potential, there is no such thing as unnatural potential unless someone is becoming a cyborg (read: when someone is changing his original body). As we know when humans become claymores it's the end, they don't have upgrades.
Partial awakening is just great training method to polish skills and perfect youki managing, IMO. So if Clare awakened in Rabona she would propably be almost or as powerful when she fought Riguald but she would spend more of her time on seeking guts than training and she would be on MiB and Riful's wanted list so her survival and further growth would be difficult . It's hard to imagine of course that someone as weak as her could become as powerful then but I don't see why would that be unlikely.
Riful's comment and behaviour might be just a smart move to let them go loose and allow them to train themselves better. She saw that they were quite flexible warriors since they quickly adapted to tough situation, Clare managed to improve her quicksword which startled Riful, Jean managed to return from awakened state and Galatea... Galatea was superb as always :).
I don't think that when they would be in awakened state with Riful, she would spend time to train and protect them. In claymore state they could hide their youki well, MiB theoretically should protect them or at least not bother them and improving their stats should be easier. On the other hand in awakened state MiB might hunt them down and their only training might be killing humans and one time they would face Isley's force - the end. So what Riful meant was that by forcing them to awaken would led only to having pawns instead of queens they could become (chess analogy). At first pawns are the weakest but after proper moves when they reach the eighth/first rank (which is called promotion) not sacrificing them might decide the win of the game.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-18, 14:09

What the scene shows is that Ordsay (the handler and person closest to her) is dubious about what Teresa explained as what happened to her. That is far from "knowing", and how can they when she's keeping it a secret. Anything they would know would be vague and incomplete.

Having a "vague" idea that Teresa defeated a Awakened former #1 would undoubtedly lead to an investigation, which would in turn bring up a dead Awakened #2's body.

It's enough only when the situation requires the reading of yoki flow. But that's why I deny those stats of Teresa's and privately believe they're higher. I've a vested interest in that being a stubborn Teresa fanatic. ;)

that goes without saying, but if Teresa's stats were much higher, I don't think it was by much.

I don't get this one. Was Priscilla keeping her potential a secret from anyone too? If the org knew of her latent potential well, then they'd probably be able to closely estimate her levels as an AB.

I think it is more along the lines that no one knew Priscilla's full potential, because she never used Yoki, and was good at hiding it.

We do know that the plan ended in failure. I'm saying that it was inevitable because of two factors they did not or could not predict: 1) Teresa was much much better than they anticipated even in a surprise attack, 2) Priscilla was not as reliable and actually became an even worse threat.

Teresa was indeed more troublesome then predicted, but Irene knew Teresa would not be defeat-able without Priscilla; thus the Priscilla stealth plan was born, and Priscilla's self-righteousness led to that plan's failure. If Priscilla had followed the plan, Teresa would have had a sword through her before the fight had even truly started.

---------------------------

I put restrain on myself to not argue about Priscilla vs Teresa anymore so I will only write that on that matter I agree with khryoleoz.

A pity. :p

I agree with Fate_Archer on that. To me potential is potential, there is no such thing as unnatural potential unless someone is becoming a cyborg (read: when someone is changing his original body). As we know when humans become claymores it's the end, they don't have upgrades.

If we were to put it in game terms, it would be called cheating. They do something which no one else is able to do, and it makes them far stronger then there otherwise limited potential would allow. That is the reason that Helen and Deneve can match a low single digit with there strength despite there rank, and Clare could hold her own amazingly well against a psychotic #4. They basically function outside the normal rules set in place for other characters.

Thus unnatural potential.

Partial awakening is just great training method to polish skills and perfect youki managing, IMO. So if Clare awakened in Rabona she would probably be almost or as powerful when she fought Riguald but she would spend more of her time on seeking guts than training and she would be on MiB and Riful's wanted list so her survival and further growth would be difficult . It's hard to imagine of course that someone as weak as her could become as powerful then but I don't see why would that be unlikely.

Partially-awakening is not a training method at all, it is a freak occurrence that dramatically increases the power of the said partially-awakened warrior.

If she had awoken, that would be it, the end, her advancement would only come in the form of experience, not physical increases in power and Yoki.

Riful's comment and behaviour might be just a smart move to let them go loose and allow them to train themselves better. She saw that they were quite flexible warriors since they quickly adapted to tough situation, Clare managed to improve her quicksword which startled Riful, Jean managed to return from awakened state and Galatea... Galatea was superb as always .

Riful's comments and behavior show us that the partial-awakened phenomena is something she has never seen before, and she quickly gathers that it gives them a unique advantage that allows them to, in the end, become more powerful ABs then normal. She never even mentioned Galatea when referring to getting stronger and becoming a stronger AB.

I don't think that when they would be in awakened state with Riful, she would spend time to train and protect them. In claymore state they could hide their youki well, MiB theoretically should protect them or at least not bother them and improving their stats should be easier. On the other hand in awakened state MiB might hunt them down and their only training might be killing humans and one time they would face Isley's force - the end. So what Riful meant was that by forcing them to awaken would led only to having pawns instead of queens they could become (chess analogy). At first pawns are the weakest but after proper moves when they reach the eighth/first rank (which is called promotion) not sacrificing them might decide the win of the game.

Riful would not bother training them, as she knows it is, in a way, an evolutionary dead end.

If they awaken then cannot get stronger anymore, so it would be a waste to force 2 interesting science projects to awaken when they could potentially grow stronger. I also doubt Riful would enjoy having any potential rivals in power, as it would threaten her own standing as " The Queen."

Flar

2007-10-18, 14:31

romulusx5

2007-10-18, 14:33

im not exactly sure about these stats, did the author actually grade the characters himself. it is very weird that alicia and beth are more powerful than teresa...that is so hard to accept.

Sassarai

2007-10-18, 14:38

As for potential, I think it can change. Something like: Heat a metal bar and stretch it, it has a limit beyond which it breaks, but stop stretching a bit before it breaks, hammer it, cool it and then do it again, and you can go further than the original breakpoint.

Would that be considered changing the potential or not going to the fullest potential yet?

Flar

2007-10-18, 14:45

Would that be considered changing the potential or not going to the fullest potential yet?I don't know. It certainly means that you go to the maximum each time you awaken, only that maximum changes each time too.

im not exactly sure about these stats, did the author actually grade the characters himself. it is very weird that alicia and beth are more powerful than teresa...that is so hard to accept.It's stats given by an unreliable narrator, not the author, so they only reflect what is apparent in story. Teresa was probably more powerful than the org gives her credit for, she was actively lying to her MiB (see ES1). Also, special techniques are not reflected by stats.

Sassarai

2007-10-18, 14:50

I would think the maximun potential is being fully awakened and you cant go beyond that. The more closer you get to becomming awakened, the more you tap into those fully awakened powers maybe. I just think theres a limit to it rather then going on forever.

Just like how you can keep stretching the metal bar there IS a limit to how much it can be stretch. Well you can increase its potential if you add more metal I guess but that cant be done with humans/yomas unless youre a mad scientist or maybe the organization through experiements. I just dont believe you can have unlimited power ups just simply by awakening everytime. THAT WOULD BE TOO FAKE FOR A FICTIONAL STORY!

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-18, 15:05

Why is it that the word of a professional liar whose job is to avoid creating or kill Awakened Beings has more credit than the one of an Abyssal one who is older, doesn't lie and has tremendous experience in creating and interacting with a multitude of Awakened Beings?

I am not saying he is more credible, just that he may not be lying either, no one in the Organization understands what the partial-awakening actually does, and Riful herself has never seen it, what we have is a group of people who do not apply to the standered set of "rules" that everyone is used to.

As for potential, I think it can change. Something like: Heat a metal bar and stretch it, it has a limit beyond which it breaks, but stop stretching a bit before it breaks, hammer it, cool it and then do it again, and you can go further than the original breakpoint.

As Sassarai said, you can only stretch it so far, that is what potential is after all, but what the Partially-awakening does (potentially) is add more metal onto the end of that bar, allowing it to stretch further.

Whether this goes on indefinatly remains to be seen.

The Organization is also far more reliable then we probably give them credit for, only Teresa and Priscilla are real trouble spots when concerning their stats.
All the other ones in question are the partially-awakened.

Sassarai

2007-10-18, 15:11

As Sassarai said, you can only stretch it so far, that is what potential is after all, but what the Partially-awakening does (potentially) is add more metal onto the end of that bar, allowing it to stretch further.

I look at partial awakening as reheating and stretching the metal further while adding metal would be something the organization does with its weird experiements -_-.

khryoleoz

2007-10-18, 15:40

Having a "vague" idea that Teresa defeated a Awakened former #1 would undoubtedly lead to an investigation, which would in turn bring up a dead Awakened #2's body.Thanks. You've just characterized Teresa as among the stupidest of people who would try to purport a deception w/out discarding any evidence that would incriminate her upon forensic analysis. I thought you said you liked this character? :mad:

that goes without saying, but if Teresa's stats were much higher, I don't think it was by much.
We'll just have to disagree there. You reveal you don't like her anyway. =P

I think it is more along the lines that no one knew Priscilla's full potential, because she never used Yoki, and was good at hiding it.We can't assume that she has never ever used Yoki such that the Org was just as ignorant about her as about Teresa. We've only seen how good she could hide it.

Teresa was indeed more troublesome then predicted, but Irene knew Teresa would not be defeat-able without Priscilla; thus the Priscilla stealth plan was born, and Priscilla's self-righteousness led to that plan's failure. If Priscilla had followed the plan, Teresa would have had a sword through her before the fight had even truly started.No way! She would have seen it coming. She didn't need Yoki sensing to fight off Priscilla pre-yoki release.

If we were to put it in game terms, it would be called cheating. They do something which no one else is able to do, and it makes them far stronger then there otherwise limited potential would allow. That is the reason that Helen and Deneve can match a low single digit with there strength despite there rank, and Clare could hold her own amazingly well against a psychotic #4. They basically function outside the normal rules set in place for other characters.

Thus unnatural potential.Then let's define what we're talking about. Semi-awakening is cheating, which has its own potential different from those who aren't "cheating". But with regard to their ontology, a Claymore is a human/yoma hybrid, whether unawakened, semi, or fully. The differences between ABs and Claymores are not the physical ontology, but consciousness and the relative exertion of power. At least this is the thinking I follow. A Claymore is n% of a fully awakened human/yoma hybrid. The awakening phenomenon from what we've seen is the extension of that threshold in which the hybrid can supress the yoki and thus maintain a human consciousness. We haven't seen any SS phenomena yet.

Partially-awakening is not a training method at all, it is a freak occurrence that dramatically increases the power of the said partially-awakened warrior.

If she had awoken, that would be it, the end, her advancement would only come in the form of experience, not physical increases in power and Yoki.Fault Gooral for a misnomer, but his idea stands valid.

Riful's comments and behavior show us that the partial-awakened phenomena is something she has never seen before, and she quickly gathers that it gives them a unique advantage that allows them to, in the end, become more powerful ABs then normal. She never even mentioned Galatea when referring to getting stronger and becoming a stronger AB.She makes such an observation, but that doesn't mean it's not flawed. She is seeing the semi-awakening for the first time, which dampens her credibility to make authoritative statements about it. While she can be right about the advantages of extending one's limits (which is really a threshold), she can be wrong about getting a stronger AB out of one.

If they awaken then cannot get stronger anymore, so it would be a waste to force 2 interesting science projects to awaken when they could potentially grow stronger. I also doubt Riful would enjoy having any potential rivals in power, as it would threaten her own standing as " The Queen." Goes to show how ignorant she is for asking the inheritor of the strongest number 1 in history (well, this by my standards only of course) to be her point man.

Gooral

2007-10-18, 15:41

If they awaken then cannot get stronger anymore, so it would be a waste to force 2 interesting science projects to awaken when they could potentially grow stronger. I also doubt Riful would enjoy having any potential rivals in power, as it would threaten her own standing as " The Queen."
I wouldn't be so sure about that (unless You meant only youki level). As for Riful, I think that she has never considered Clare, Galatea or Jean as a threat, she was so overwhelmingly stronger and she could sense their youki level quite well (only Clare is special and her power is still a mystery) so allowing them to grow wouldn't threaten her (or so she thought).

As for potential, I think it can change. Something like: Heat a metal bar and stretch it, it has a limit beyond which it breaks, but stop stretching a bit before it breaks, hammer it, cool it and then do it again, and you can go further than the original breakpoint.
"Quench" is like training and potential isn't changing it's "potential" because it's still steel - it just reached maximum of it's toughness after receiving special treatment. You can't quench steel more than once (I think, I'm not physicist). If sth doesn't have "potential" than quenching won't work. When someone is improving his skills then it means he hasn't reached his peak yet, not that he awakened his hidden unnatural potential or he somehow "gained potential".

Tempest35

2007-10-18, 15:42

Holy...:heh: this thread's not even a week old...

As for Alicia and Beth being stronger than Teresa base stat-wise...I believe that being groomed from day 1 to become the strongest evah might play a part in that. The two were brought to the Org to continue that one particular experiment and as we all know, it works like a charm.
Now, for Alicia to completely Awaken like she does, she would have had to go through partial Awakenings beforehand would she not? Jumping straight into controlling a fully Awakened one is pure suicide. If what we've seen of our Ghost 7, particularly our Fab 4, is true, then the Partial Awakenings would have pushed Alicia's power cap through the roof.

If one's power increased at say...10% of their base power to begin with, half a dozen Awakenings would really push the power pretty high. Teresa didn't even like using her Youki and she was that strong, for someone who was nearly as strong to go through partial Awakenings as a part of training.... ....

There's no real sense in arguing if the stats are 'right' or 'wrong' - they're pretty much official and coincidently, the best source we got for comparisions between the Claymores. As for the timeframes that they apply for, we don't really know that. Also, any and all special techniques/abilities are reflected by the stats pretty accurately. If one thinks that someone's technique or ability is stronger than what the stats suggest, it's probably one's own interpetation of what that ability/technique is and how strong it is on an overall scale. Don't use one instance or fight to accurately judge just how powerful something is like say Galatea's youki trick against Duff/Daph/whatever. Like the Awakened in Pieta, he showed just HOW strong that trick could be if Galatea was more powerful so in reality, Galatea's technique is really just a trick while the Awakened one's version could be and should be called an actual technique.

...as for Miria, you know she'd try to get us to work together Fenris. :heh: I can see her lecturing about putting all that energy into learning how to fight off youma...and like the poor saps (ie devoted followers) we are, we'd jump at the chance to train up to that. Trained by her, of course. :D

Helen: Ah, I found some leashes that might work! Here ya go Miria! ^_^

Miria: ...Helen...!! ><

Me: ... as much as I want to say something in defense of myself, I can not.

Sassarai

2007-10-18, 15:56

I'm gonna get you on palgerism one of these days gooral /laughs

BrokenWingz

2007-10-18, 16:37

Now, for Alicia to completely Awaken like she does, she would have had to go through partial Awakenings beforehand would she not? Jumping straight into controlling a fully Awakened one is pure suicide. If what we've seen of our Ghost 7, particularly our Fab 4, is true, then the Partial Awakenings would have pushed Alicia's power cap through the roof.

Mmm, thing that contridicts this according to those stats are that Alicia / Beth's stat are suppose to be the same, so either Beth is also a partially awakened or those stats don't hold to much weight or even that soul linking mean powering up at the same time! xD

Tempest35

2007-10-18, 17:08

Well, it can be similar but they can't be the same since Beth has to stay put in order for Alicia to do her thing. Alicia's officially the #1 which means that by all rights her base stats SHOULD be higher than Beth's. Even by wee bit in one area. ^^

azurie

2007-10-18, 17:09

however since their twins they would be the same both sharing the exact same stats just one holding a more combative role over the other. IMO

Sassarai

2007-10-18, 17:10

No way! She would have seen it coming. She didn't need Yoki sensing to fight off Priscilla pre-yoki release.

Nah Teresa herself said that prissy could of wounded her during that sneak attack. I believe she could of wounded teresa(insert assumption) but not to the point of it being deadly(end assumption) and then she would just continue owning those 4 since she knows what prissy is capable of. Like they keep saying in that one anime "The same attack wont work twice on Athena's saint!"

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-18, 18:17

Bah my Internet died while replying, so now I have to retype everything >.<

Thanks. You've just characterized Teresa as among the stupidest of people who would try to purport a deception w/out discarding any evidence that would incriminate her upon forensic analysis. I thought you said you liked this character? :mad:

Stupid how? She cannot really do anything to cover her tracks, and her excuse was flimsy at best. What is she going to do? Hide the body? It is not like they could not find the remains and (easily) guess what happened.

and I do like Teresa, what I do not like is blind Teresa fanboyism, so I must toughen my skin and argue the reaper as it were.

We'll just have to disagree there. You reveal you don't like her anyway. =P

You can say what you like, but Teresa will always be one of my favorite characters, her arc is what made me love Claymore.

We can't assume that she has never ever used Yoki such that the Org was just as ignorant about her as about Teresa. We've only seen how good she could hide it.

True we cannot just assume that she never did, but we cannot ignore it as a possibility either, otherwise Teresa would have never gotten away with hiding her power either.

No way! She would have seen it coming. She didn't need Yoki sensing to fight off Priscilla pre-yoki release.

Teresa herself admitted that Priscilla could have gotten her, so I think I will stick with what Teresa said. :p

Then let's define what we're talking about. Semi-awakening is cheating, which has its own potential different from those who aren't "cheating". But with regard to their ontology, a Claymore is a human/yoma hybrid, whether unawakened, semi, or fully. The differences between ABs and Claymores are not the physical ontology, but consciousness and the relative exertion of power. At least this is the thinking I follow. A Claymore is n% of a fully awakened human/yoma hybrid. The awakening phenomenon from what we've seen is the extension of that threshold in which the hybrid can suppress the yoki and thus maintain a human consciousness. We haven't seen any SS phenomena yet.

The problem is, we do not really know what lies in actually being a hybrid. Is the reason some are weak and others are strong because of compatibility, if training is all one requires, then why aren't all Claymores stronger then they are right now?

Fault Gooral for a misnomer, but his idea stands valid.

As does mine.

She makes such an observation, but that doesn't mean it's not flawed. She is seeing the semi-awakening for the first time, which dampens her credibility to make authoritative statements about it. While she can be right about the advantages of extending one's limits (which is really a threshold), she can be wrong about getting a stronger AB out of one.

True enough, but many are basing this entire argument on what Riful stated as well, so if we discount Riful's word, then we have no where to go with this entire thing :p
From what we have seen however, Riful may indeed be correct.

Goes to show how ignorant she is for asking the inheritor of the strongest number 1 in history (well, this by my standards only of course) to be her point man.

Indeed, she is not omniscient, but then again, neither was Teresa. :uhoh:

---------------------

I wouldn't be so sure about that (unless You meant only youki level). As for Riful, I think that she has never considered Clare, Galatea or Jean as a threat, she was so overwhelmingly stronger and she could sense their youki level quite well (only Clare is special and her power is still a mystery) so allowing them to grow wouldn't threaten her (or so she thought).

I did primarily mean their Yoki level, although I do think physically as well, they can always become wiser and more experienced, but there natural power will not change, although their control over it may improve.

I also agree that Riful probably never foresaw Clare becoming strong enough to threaten her. I am just saying, if she had thought it possible, she definitely would not approve.

"Quench" is like training and potential isn't changing it's "potential" because it's still steel - it just reached maximum of it's toughness after receiving special treatment. You can't quench steel more than once (I think, I'm not physicist). If sth doesn't have "potential" than quenching won't work. When someone is improving his skills then it means he hasn't reached his peak yet, not that he awakened his hidden unnatural potential or he somehow "gained potential".

I understand quite well what you are saying here, let me try to translate my thoughts for you. :heh:

Normal Warriors have potential, they can achieve this potential with time, training, and experience. However this potential has a limit (as all things do)

When a Warrior Awakenes all this potential is immediately realized, and quite possibly exceeded. Awakend warriors can gain experience, but cannot improve their base physical power, or Yoki.

Now a Partially-awakened warrior has gained power that is not achievable through time, training, and experience. It is equivalent to a human gaining super-human abilities, and if they awaken later in their lifetime, this power stacks on top of their "normal" potential. This potential is only limited by the number of times the warrior has surpassed her limit.

Thus I believe that Partially-awakened "cheat" per-say, as they gain power that non-partially awakened have no access to.

I also believe this will eventually lead to how Clare can defeat Priscilla, who is currently the strongest being in the Claymore-verse.

-----------------------

Nah Teresa herself said that prissy could of wounded her during that sneak attack. I believe she could of wounded teresa(insert assumption) but not to the point of it being deadly(end assumption) and then she would just continue owning those 4 since she knows what prissy is capable of. Like they keep saying in that one anime "The same attack wont work twice on Athena's saint!"

Hehe glad you pointed out that it is an assumption, it really could have gone either way, Teresa could have died instantly, or could have only been wounded enough to force herself to use Yoki to pwnzerize the pre-fab 4.

Shame you theory did not go through though, because Teresa would not have been caught off guard by Priscilla's final attack. :uhoh:

Sassarai

2007-10-18, 18:34

Hehe glad you pointed out that it is an assumption, it really could have gone either way, Teresa could have died instantly, or could have only been wounded enough to force herself to use Yoki to pwnzerize the pre-fab 4.

Shame you theory did not go through though, because Teresa would not have been caught off guard by Priscilla's final attack. :uhoh:

Yea almost everything here is based on assumptions. It can go either way really on almost all of the arguments.

It wasnt quite the same attack. You cant compare her almost awakening to the same speed as the earlier attack.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-18, 18:43

Yea almost everything here is based on assumptions. It can go either way really on almost all of the arguments.

It wasnt quite the same attack. You cant compare her almost awakening to the same speed as the earlier attack.

I suppose, but you should take my generosity when I give it. :p

----------------------------------------

...as for Miria, you know she'd try to get us to work together Fenris. I can see her lecturing about putting all that energy into learning how to fight off youma...and like the poor saps (ie devoted followers) we are, we'd jump at the chance to train up to that. Trained by her, of course.

Helen: Ah, I found some leashes that might work! Here ya go Miria! ^_^

Miria: ...Helen...!! ><

Me: ... as much as I want to say something in defense of myself, I can not.

Heh, I would respond this way:

Me: HEY!...I don't need that... I have no reason to run away. Now a collar on the other hand...(if it was to designate me as Miria's property...)

Regardless, none of that would stop me from getting her attention first Tempest ;)
__________________

Sassarai

2007-10-18, 18:46

I dunno but a sneak attack from behind from the back at 0 percent yoki release is different from a sneak + trick attack from the front at 80-90ish? percent yoki release?

lol besides have you ever even watched saint seiya? They only have 1 or 2 move and they just keep doing it over and over till it works. Only difference in their attack is how much they burn their comos. What generosity? lol if youre talking about what you said about not getting me caught up in the arguement or not then dont worry about it cuz like I said I just state my points and I pretty much stop at some point when it repeats itself. Like how gooral said he'll stop the teresa vs prissy debate except I dont take as long to stop lol.

Fate_Archer

2007-10-18, 19:45

Think this will be the last data book for a while. :(

Yeah, but yet, there are more characters to be evaluated.
The list of relevant and remaining characters would be:

Riful, Easley, Rigardo and Luciela for awakened beings.

Tabitha, Cynthia, Yuma, Claris, Nina, Audrey, Rachel and Miata for Claymores.

Correct me if I'm missing someone or something.

Up to a certain point, but strength, speed, agility, yoki, are all affected by the partial awakening, as we have seen with Deneve, and Helen; partially-awakening affects there physical abilities as well.

True, so far we have seen.

Clare did not start to advance in any of her physical areas till after she partially awakened, so we can assume that she had hit her limit in that department.

Not exactly.
In the seven years of the time skip, she learned Flora's technique, which doesn't rely on yoki, unlike her quick sword.
This probably indicate an upgrade in her normal strength.

Not to mention Yoki is probably the most important stat of all, because it increases all other physical stats when used.

Yes, but all the traits are important as well.
Mental and Leadership, are not related to yoki, but can really make the difference in lots of situations

Considering the experience gap between that AB and Galatea, I am being pretty generous in saying that Galatea was about as skilled as he was, but he was able to manipulate multiple Claymores at once as well, something we are not sure if Galatea is capable of.

Maybe, but multiple targets aren't really the problem, she could change the target of more than a dozen of poles at the same time.
And that guy is an awakened being, in terms of manipulation, he has (or should have) the advantage.
Aside from that, he was an unknown number of a male generation of Claymores and as stated by Easley, an expendable one.
While Galatea is the #3 of seventh-eighth generation, and could (arguably) defeat Duff, who was the number #3 of the first male generation.
I still think she owns him. :)

------------------------

The question I would ask is how substantial the differences are between that A and A+. If it's a small degree and if it is true that it is that single attribute in which Teresa's quality is S class that gives her the edge, then it is on that level that she bests the twins.

The "+" indicates a level of proficiency above the average.
"S" is a special level of ability.
(That's what was written in a translated version I saw)

And "EX", probably means Extreme level or something like it.
(personal speculation)

I've followed your reasoning up to this point. We seem to agree that awakening is the END of yoki release, so having awakened, ABs are fixed at that power level. They can supress it if they choose but in terms of their raw power the AOs can't hope to become better than Priscilla. What Alicia does is "awaken". So she is at her full potential in that state. Soul-linking w/Beth only allows the preservation of her human consciousness and the return to the "unawakened" state. So other than becoming more competent at "awakening" and "sleeping", I can't see how repeating this process will make her stronger over time.

Because, technically, Alicia and Beth* are partially or half awakened.

A partially awakened Claymores is a Claymore who crossed the limit line where all the mixed sensations of pleasure, ecstasy, pain and suffering, along with all the yoki released were going to carry her to become an AB, but somehow, she managed to stop all this process and get back.
The same thing happens with the twins, the difference is that they go to the very end, and fully awaken (releasing all their yoki and potential at that moment), and then, after that, they come back with the support of the non-awakened twin.

And after going back, like any partially awakened Claymore, they get stronger in most of their traits.
So, next time they were going to awake, they would be even more powerful awakened beings. (as stated by Riful)

Nearly unlimited powers are possible, in this theory.
But it is all a theory, and it could be just wrong. Mangakas know how to break our legs when we are happy.
I'm just making the interpretation of the facts stated and calculating the possibilities.

But every time I think about these twins, I don't know if they should be considered Claymores or really awakened beings.

It's a tenuous line that separate a Claymore from an awakened being, I guess.

* Beth is included, her stats are indentical to Alicia, this is a strong hint, I guess.
And while Rubel was talking with Galatea about the twins, he said that as long as there is one twin to support the other, it's possible to maintain the consciousness and even get back.
This implies that their position could be changed, and Beth could awaken too.
And it makes much sense if we think in the possibility of Alicia somehow getting seriously injured.
She could at least focus while Beth is in her awakened form.

Tempest35

2007-10-18, 20:03

Ah! Those be FIGHTIN' WORDS right there!! Wanna go at it, wanna-be #4 ranked Male Claymore!? XDD

...for some odd reason, the image of Ash's Pikachu and Clare overlapped in my head. *eyes the Coke warily* Before I am written off as being crazy, let me elaborate a bit... If you watched the first seasons of Pokemon, (...and I know most of you all did!) You should remember the Pikachu vs Raichu battle and the subject of 'forcing' Pikachu to evolve into a Raichu to continue fighting. Several interesting bits showed up while thinking of the Partially Awakened bit and the terms of the power jump from Claymore to Awakened.

While the Raichu was overwhelmingly stronger in terms of voltage and physical strength, it lacked a lot of other attacks that it could only gain as a Pikachu because it was forced to evolve rather quickly. So while Raichu was stronger, Pikachu had learned all its capabilities including its quick attacks that allowed it to overwhelm Raichu at the end. (What good is hitting power when you can't make contact?)
And as those who watched Pokemon would know, Ash's Pikachu was crazy strong - taking out opponents that normally would have no buisness losing to an electrical rodent. Now if that Pikachu would FINALLY evolve into a Raichu...scary world.

Now, put Clare in Pikachu's place...XD *finishes off Coke* ... something was weird about this one after all...

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-18, 21:25

Yeah, but yet, there are more characters to be evaluated.
The list of relevant and remaining characters would be:

Riful, Easley, Rigardo and Luciela for awakened beings.

Tabitha, Cynthia, Yuma, Claris, Nina, Audrey, Rachel and Miata for Claymores.

Correct me if I'm missing someone or something.

Yeah, I know there is a large amount of characters that do not have their stats revealed yet, but I am just saying they are probably gonna wait till this arc is over to release them.

True, so far we have seen.

"Nod"

Not exactly.
In the seven years of the time skip, she learned Flora's technique, which doesn't rely on yoki, unlike her quick sword.
This probably indicate an upgrade in her normal strength.

She did so with Irene's arm, a arm that is quite probably capable of performing Flora's Windcutter better then Flora could. Clare brought out the latent "potential" of Irene's arm to use the Windcutter.

Yes, but all the traits are important as well.
Mental and Leadership, are not related to yoki, but can really make the difference in lots of situations

I agree, although I think mental is vitally important to the practicality of Yoki use.

Maybe, but multiple targets aren't really the problem, she could change the target of more than a dozen of poles at the same time.

But was she changing their trajectory or Dauf's aim?

And that guy is an awakened being, in terms of manipulation, he has (or should have) the advantage.

As I said, I was being generous to Galatea.

Aside from that, he was an unknown number of a male generation of Claymores and as stated by Easley, an expendable one.
While Galatea is the #3 of seventh-eighth generation, and could (arguably) defeat Duff, who was the number #3 of the first male generation.
I still think she owns him. :)

She is certainly superior to Dauf in the mental department, but he really only got boned because of our Partially-awakened girls, Riful's advice certainly helped him, but I think Jean/Clare combo helped Galatea more. :P

Because, technically, Alicia and Beth* are partially or half awakened.

A partially awakened Claymores is a Claymore who crossed the limit line where all the mixed sensations of pleasure, ecstasy, pain and suffering, along with all the yoki released were going to carry her to become an AB, but somehow, she managed to stop all this process and get back.
The same thing happens with the twins, the difference is that they go to the very end, and fully awaken (releasing all their yoki and potential), and then, after that, they come back with the support of the non-awakened twin.

And after going back, like any partially awakened Claymore, they get stronger in most of their traits.
So, next time they were going to awake, they would be even more powerful awakened beings. (as stated by Riful)

Nearly unlimited powers are possible, in this theory.
But it is all a theory, and it could be just wrong. Mangakas know how to break our legs when we are happy.
I'm just making the interpretation of the facts stated and calculating the possibilities.

True enough, I do think Partially-awakening has a limit to its power increase, but we have yet to see it. We just might with Alicia and Beth.

But every time I think about these twins, I don't know if they should be considered Claymores or really awakened beings.

I consider them exactly what the Organization apparently considers them "Unique."

It's a tenuous line that separate a Claymore from an awakened being, I guess.

Especially with partially-awakened running around.

* Beth is included, her stats are indentical to Alicia, this is a strong hint, I guess.
And while Rubel was talking with Galatea about the twins, he said that as long as there is one twin to support the other, it's possible to maintain the consciousness and even get back.
This implies that their position could be changed, and Beth could awaken too.
And it makes much sense if we think in the possibility of Alicia somehow getting seriously injured.
She could at least focus while Beth is in her awakened form.

It would not surprise me if the Organization had a fall-back plan like that.

Ah! Those be FIGHTIN' WORDS right there!! Wanna go at it, wanna-be #4 ranked Male Claymore!? XDD

Bring it on! and do not taunt me with that, you had the same idea!

...for some odd reason, the image of Ash's Pikachu and Clare overlapped in my head. *eyes the Coke warily* Before I am written off as being crazy, let me elaborate a bit... If you watched the first seasons of Pokemon, (...and I know most of you all did!) You should remember the Pikachu vs Raichu battle and the subject of 'forcing' Pikachu to evolve into a Raichu to continue fighting. Several interesting bits showed up while thinking of the Partially Awakened bit and the terms of the power jump from Claymore to Awakened.

While the Raichu was overwhelmingly stronger in terms of voltage and physical strength, it lacked a lot of other attacks that it could only gain as a Pikachu because it was forced to evolve rather quickly. So while Raichu was stronger, Pikachu had learned all its capabilities including its quick attacks that allowed it to overwhelm Raichu at the end. (What good is hitting power when you can't make contact?)
And as those who watched Pokemon would know, Ash's Pikachu was crazy strong - taking out opponents that normally would have no buisness losing to an electrical rodent. Now if that Pikachu would FINALLY evolve into a Raichu...scary world.

Now, put Clare in Pikachu's place...XD *finishes off Coke* ... something was weird about this one after all...

That my friend is ALOT of coke, but it makes a strange sort of sense, in a scary way.

---------

I dunno but a sneak attack from behind from the back at 0 percent yoki release is different from a sneak + trick attack from the front at 80-90ish? percent yoki release?

One is a full blown stealth attack, while the other one is simply a surprise-attack.

lol besides have you ever even watched saint seiya? They only have 1 or 2 move and they just keep doing it over and over till it works. Only difference in their attack is how much they burn their comos. What generosity? lol if youre talking about what you said about not getting me caught up in the arguement or not then dont worry about it cuz like I said I just state my points and I pretty much stop at some point when it repeats itself. Like how gooral said he'll stop the teresa vs prissy debate except I dont take as long to stop lol.

Afraid I have not watched that show, and you are wise to state your opinion and go, some of us just like to argue. :D

Tempest35

2007-10-18, 22:55

You write too much... 0.o ... :heh: *points* You have not let the siren song of fanfiction fade from your mind have you!?
As for me...*wearing headphones* :D Yes, Pikachu's very scary... I was thinking about comparing them to Bleach characters but...:heh: yeah right.
*throws last Coke out* ... tomorrow night ... back to root beer.

For Duph vs Galatea...it's a pretty even fight all things considered. Both are/were ranked #3's, and while one specializies in offensive power and defensive toughness, the other specializes in mental aplitude, mind games, and a cool head. But overall, Duph IS an Awakened one so in the end, he'll come out on top - it's the way it goes. One-on-one, there's no way Galatea could win.

Now, make it Duph vs Galatea/Ophelia or Rafalea or probably even Miria - Duph's ass is grass. You need at least two people to tackle Duph head-on - he's very good when he's focused on an enemy but usually it's only one at a time - that's his real weakness.

Irene's arm is just naturally stronger (amputated elf limbs have +5 dex) so in all likelyhood, Clare's Windcutter is stronger than Flora's at this point. Comparing a #2 to a #8 is just not fair - I mean, look how badly Irene messed up #4 Ophelia inside a few seconds. :D

azurie

2007-10-18, 23:04

lol i like that amputated elf limbs +5 dex ROFL that's rich lol so what would increase int?? or wis? hmmm LOL

khryoleoz

2007-10-18, 23:14

Stupid how? She cannot really do anything to cover her tracks, and her excuse was flimsy at best. What is she going to do? Hide the body? It is not like they could not find the remains and (easily) guess what happened.

and I do like Teresa, what I do not like is blind Teresa fanboyism, so I must toughen my skin and argue the reaper as it were.

There you go again characterizing her as stupid by painting her actions as half-baked and her response belonging to a dim-wit. [I'm actually acting more offended than I really am. I'm just going with the flow.] What she did was dodge the issue with something that is plausible. It's not as if she had conducted her affairs in such a way that would have aroused the Org's suspicion about her activities. So a simple, plausible explanation was all that was necessary under those circumstances. Also, she shred Rosemary to bits from what I can remember. So even if they suspected Rosemary to have awakened, there'd be little to identify her and only chunks of yoma flesh would be found, lending more credence to her yoma claim than Rosemary's awakening. It's not as if the Org has a forensic investigative team as the one in Las Vegas where an average of 2 people are killed in a homocide a week except during the summer.

You can say what you like, but Teresa will always be one of my favorite characters, her arc is what made me love Claymore.In addition to characterizing Teresa as stupid, you've also characterized the loyalty such as that which I hold as blind fanboyism. I will admit to seeing Claymore through a certain prism in which Teresa shines brightest. But these lenses are something that I don and I can take them on and off at will. Look, I'm not saying they had no clue about the fact that she was stronger than anyone of her generation, only that how much stronger seems veiled enough so that they've made a significant miscalculation about how to deal with her...this based on how their plan to eliminate her went down.

True we cannot just assume that she never did, but we cannot ignore it as a possibility either, otherwise Teresa would have never gotten away with hiding her power either.It isn't impossible but it isn't likely that Priscilla's brief career as a warrior never involved the release of yoki. How then would the org have measured her as fit to take the position of number 2?

Teresa herself admitted that Priscilla could have gotten her, so I think I will stick with what Teresa said. :pI can still wiggle my way out of this one. Teresa herself is imperfect in her judgement. But it's part of what makes her so fascinating and curious, how she offered no resistance to rapists, how she spared the life of "that thing" which posed the greatest threat to her, how with her level-headedness she indulged in a moment of passion that would mark her demise... Anyway, Priscilla might have crept up on her but she still saw her when no longer distracted by others. Let me quote this.

I dunno but a sneak attack from behind from the back at 0 percent yoki release is different from a sneak + trick attack from the front at 80-90ish? percent yoki release?

The problem is, we do not really know what lies in actually being a hybrid. Is the reason some are weak and others are strong because of compatibility, if training is all one requires, then why aren't all Claymores stronger then they are right now?While I wouldn't pass this on as knowledge, it's pretty easy to figure out that it's the quality of Yoma material that makes the difference. Warriors can no more hope to become stronger than they are at the point of awakening because of the limitations of that yoma material. Training would improve the ability to tap into the power behind that material. For now I see that the ABs are hybrids that release the fullness of that material. So yoki emission would be an incremental release towards that fullness. There is a point where too much emission would lead to an unstoppable flow, except for the one freak phenomenon where it IS stopped and reversed, raising the threshold at THAT new emission level. By being able to release yoki at a higher threshold, naturally the warrior's abilities are improved. Yagi might prove me wrong in the future, but that time is not now.

emu777

2007-10-19, 00:48

lol i like that amputated elf limbs +5 dex ROFL that's rich lol so what would increase int?? or wis? hmmm LOL

Thats easy, you need one kappa shell, the turtle AB from the Pieta arc should carry it:heh:

You write too much... 0.o ... :heh: *points* You have not let the siren song of fanfiction fade from your mind have you!?
As for me...*wearing headphones* :D Yes, Pikachu's very scary... I was thinking about comparing them to Bleach characters but...:heh: yeah right.
*throws last Coke out* ... tomorrow night ... back to root beer.

For Duph vs Galatea...it's a pretty even fight all things considered. Both are/were ranked #3's, and while one specializies in offensive power and defensive toughness, the other specializes in mental aplitude, mind games, and a cool head. But overall, Duph IS an Awakened one so in the end, he'll come out on top - it's the way it goes. One-on-one, there's no way Galatea could win.

Now, make it Duph vs Galatea/Ophelia or Rafalea or probably even Miria - Duph's ass is grass. You need at least two people to tackle Duph head-on - he's very good when he's focused on an enemy but usually it's only one at a time - that's his real weakness.

Irene's arm is just naturally stronger (amputated elf limbs have +5 dex) so in all likelyhood, Clare's Windcutter is stronger than Flora's at this point. Comparing a #2 to a #8 is just not fair - I mean, look how badly Irene messed up #4 Ophelia inside a few seconds. :D

While I'am a big duff fan, I can't help but agree with you on the...assesment of his mental capabilites. If he possessed just a little more tactical intelligence...or even mental capabilites at all I'm sure he would be more well liked.

PS- Heres a tip, DON'T drink a Pepsi you find behind the fridge after 3 years thinking its still good(TRUST ME ON THIS!!!:upset:)...walls arent supposed to talk back to you.:uhoh:

Gooral

2007-10-19, 07:44

If she had awoken, that would be it, the end, her advancement would only come in the form of experience, not physical increases in power and Yoki.

Partial awakening increases only Claymore stats not awakened. So it doesn't matter if you awaken after 5 years or 10, the end result will be still the same. What's so great about partial awakening is that claymore's gain more power but their still themselves - humans.

Flar

2007-10-19, 08:01

Partial awakening increases only Claymore stats not awakened. So it doesn't matter if you awaken after 5 years or 10, the end result will be still the same. Back to square one:

Until you awaken... become stronger! And then wake up, that way you will become even stronger awakened beings.
~Riful - chapter 49

zhoutai753

2007-10-19, 08:20

Gooral

2007-10-19, 08:40

Back to square one:

Until you awaken... become stronger! And then wake up, that way you will become even stronger awakened beings.
~Riful - chapter 49

Unless Riful is some sort of a fortune-teller she couldn't know how would claymores change after full awakening. All we've seen was that claymores got stronger, whether their awakened form would be stronger isn't that obvious. We don't know if Alicia from the start fully awakened or was it partial and gradual awakening to let her
adapt and utilize new power.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-19, 08:44

There you go again characterizing her as stupid by painting her actions as half-baked and her response belonging to a dim-wit. [I'm actually acting more offended than I really am. I'm just going with the flow.] What she did was dodge the issue with something that is plausible. It's not as if she had conducted her affairs in such a way that would have aroused the Org's suspicion about her activities. So a simple, plausible explanation was all that was necessary under those circumstances. Also, she shred Rosemary to bits from what I can remember. So even if they suspected Rosemary to have awakened, there'd be little to identify her and only chunks of yoma flesh would be found, lending more credence to her yoma claim than Rosemary's awakening. It's not as if the Org has a forensic investigative team as the one in Las Vegas where an average of 2 people are killed in a homocide a week except during the summer.

First of all, you did not answer my question, what was she supposed to do? Clare cut Ophelia into little pieces and dumped her human torso into a lake, yet the Organization found it and pieced together a pretty accurate theory. (Which Rubel scoffed at but had his own thoughts over)

You do not need a forensic team to tell that those Yoma parts belonged to an AB, consider the mass and quality difference, especially from a bunch of guys who work with Yoma flesh as part of there profession.

Teresa's excuse was incrediably flimsy, and both she and Orsay knew it, but Orsay did not care at the time, they had more work to do, but it was obvious from the look he gave Teresa that he did not believe one word of it.

In addition to characterizing Teresa as stupid, you've also characterized the loyalty such as that which I hold as blind fanboyism. I will admit to seeing Claymore through a certain prism in which Teresa shines brightest. But these lenses are something that I don and I can take them on and off at will. Look, I'm not saying they had no clue about the fact that she was stronger than anyone of her generation, only that how much stronger seems veiled enough so that they've made a significant miscalculation about how to deal with her...this based on how their plan to eliminate her went down.

For the most part you arent bad enough to be considered a blind fanboy, but damn if you don't come close sometimes :p There plan to eliminate her failed, because a certain noob Claymore did not even follow the plan.

It isn't impossible but it isn't likely that Priscilla's brief career as a warrior never involved the release of yoki. How then would the org have measured her as fit to take the position of number 2?

How could Irene immediatly tell that Priscilla was worthy of the #2 spot without being able to sense her Yoki? Because it was obvious that is why.

I can still wiggle my way out of this one. Teresa herself is imperfect in her judgement. But it's part of what makes her so fascinating and curious, how she offered no resistance to rapists, how she spared the life of "that thing" which posed the greatest threat to her, how with her level-headedness she indulged in a moment of passion that would mark her demise... Anyway, Priscilla might have crept up on her but she still saw her when no longer distracted by others. Let me quote this.

You can wiggle, but no out of it. :D I never said that she was close to perfect, infact I often argue the opposite, and I love her flawed character in all its glory, but her expression of shock and later scolding of Priscilla's naivety are more then enough proof to show Priscilla borked up big time by not taking the free-shot.

While I wouldn't pass this on as knowledge, it's pretty easy to figure out that it's the quality of Yoma material that makes the difference. Warriors can no more hope to become stronger than they are at the point of awakening because of the limitations of that yoma material. Training would improve the ability to tap into the power behind that material. For now I see that the ABs are hybrids that release the fullness of that material. So yoki emission would be an incremental release towards that fullness. There is a point where too much emission would lead to an unstoppable flow, except for the one freak phenomenon where it IS stopped and reversed, raising the threshold at THAT new emission level. By being able to release yoki at a higher threshold, naturally the warrior's abilities are improved. Yagi might prove me wrong in the future, but that time is not now.

If it was a matter of quality, then why was Clare so horrible before partially-awakening? Even 1/4 of Teresa's Yoma would have made her a monster, but she was not, she was an absolute failure as far as inheriting Teresa's strength.
The only answer can be compatibility, Clare was simply not as compatible with that Yoma as Teresa was. If it was only a matter of quality then the Organization would have tons of Priscilla and Teresa clones walking around.

What you just described with partially-awakening is exactly what I was talking about with partially-awakening. :confused:
It raises there power-threshold above the norm allowing them to become stronger then they would otherwise be.
-----------------------------------

Partial awakening increases only Claymore stats not awakened. So it doesn't matter if you awaken after 5 years or 10, the end result will be still the same. What's so great about partial awakening is that claymore's gain more power but their still themselves - humans.

I think Flar answered this quite well. This entire arguement was started because of what Riful said.

Unless Riful is some sort of a fortune-teller she couldn't know how would claymores change after full awakening. All we've seen was that claymores got stronger, whether their awakened form would be stronger isn't that obvious. We don't know if Alicia from the start fully awakened or was it partial and gradual awakening to let her
adapt and utilize new power.

Riful can sense Yoki, far better then people have been giving her credit for, she sensed Priscilla's power immediatly upon seeing her, when both Rigaldo and Isley misjudged it. She could probably tell how powerful they could become by reading there unusual Yoki.
As for Alicia, we know she was not able to fully awaken from the start, hence the training she had to go through after sensing Riful's power.

zhoutai753

2007-10-19, 08:52

Gooral

2007-10-19, 09:00

Riful can sense Yoki, far better then people have been giving her credit for, she sensed Priscilla's power immediatly upon seeing her, when both Rigaldo and Isley misjudged it. She could probably tell how powerful they could become by reading there unusual Yoki.
Assuming that Priscilla didn't suppress her youki in either of these encounters (we don't know if Priscilla-Isley-time showed the same as Priscilla-Riful-time).
As for Alicia, we know she was not able to fully awaken from the start, hence the training she had to go through after sensing Riful's power.
You're right, I forgot that it was clearly stated Alicia was increasing her power and speed gradually. I remembered though that Alicia commented herself that she could deliver Riful 50% damage and die so I thought that her training could be only focused on increasing time in which she could stay in awakened state. After all even fully awakened Alicia wouldn't be able to kill Riful in a split of a second (we saw how long went Isley vs Luciella battle) so after she went through her limit and returned back to claymore form she would be killed instantly - that was my reasoning.

khryoleoz

2007-10-19, 10:07

First of all, you did not answer my question, what was she supposed to do? Clare cut Ophelia into little pieces and dumped her human torso into a lake, yet the Organization found it and pieced together a pretty accurate theory. (Which Rubel scoffed at but had his own thoughts over)

You do not need a forensic team to tell that those Yoma parts belonged to an AB, consider the mass and quality difference, especially from a bunch of guys who work with Yoma flesh as part of there profession.

Teresa's excuse was incrediably flimsy, and both she and Orsay knew it, but Orsay did not care at the time, they had more work to do, but it was obvious from the look he gave Teresa that he did not believe one word of it.
Oh, I didn't answer it because I thought it was rhetorical. My point still is that her answer was plausible, and that's all it needed to be under the circumstances, that (presumably) she had never conducted herself in anyway that would arouse their suspicion before that they would bother to check up on her story.

For the most part you arent bad enough to be considered a blind fanboy, but damn if you don't come close sometimes :p There plan to eliminate her failed, because a certain noob Claymore did not even follow the plan.Doesn't matter. All Teresa admitted to was not detecting her presence initially, thus giving an opportunity for a sneak attack. That doesn't mean she was unguarded and would not have been able to react sufficiently against that sneak attack.

How could Irene immediatly tell that Priscilla was worthy of the #2 spot without being able to sense her Yoki? Because it was obvious that is why.But that's my point I think. She couldn't deceive the org about her power. Based upon her naivete, she would have no motive to either.

If it was a matter of quality, then why was Clare so horrible before partially-awakening? Even 1/4 of Teresa's Yoma would have made her a monster, but she was not, she was an absolute failure as far as inheriting Teresa's strength.
The only answer can be compatibility, Clare was simply not as compatible with that Yoma as Teresa was. If it was only a matter of quality then the Organization would have tons of Priscilla and Teresa clones walking around.That's an interesting factor I haven't considered. But my thoughts on Clare is that she has Teresa's full potential to tap into because of Teresa's yoma material. What makes it difficult to tap into it is because she is indeed a different hybrid being 3/4 human. But after her latest, more advanced semi-awakening, she has shown to be stronger as a semi-awakened than a fully-awakened number 2. Come on, man. There's got to be a lot going for that Yoma material.

What you just described with partially-awakening is exactly what I was talking about with partially-awakening. :confused:
It raises there power-threshold above the norm allowing them to become stronger then they would otherwise be.I didn't bring this up because I was arguing against a point you made about it. I was just completing my thought process. But I think where we might depart (I'm not really sure) is that some people think that that potential is limitless, when it's not. There's the full measure of power that one reaches by awakening, so it's finite. There's a threshold wherein if passed one cannot return, save for that semi-awakening phenomenon where the threshold is increased to wherever they happen to return from. But that extends only their threshold which consequently extends the available power. I don't think it increases the power that they would have if/when they fully awaken. I'm simply calling where I think Riful is wrong in her thinking.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-19, 10:10

Assuming that Priscilla didn't suppress her youki in either of these encounters (we don't know if Priscilla-Isley-time showed the same as Priscilla-Riful-time).

All assumption of course, but Judging by the fact Riful did not notice Priscilla from a mile away, when she could detect Alicia from a significant distance, likely means that Priscilla was hiding her Yoki. (Something she excells at.)

You're right, I forgot that it was clearly stated Alicia was increasing her power and speed gradually. I remembered though that Alicia commented herself that she could deliver Riful 50% damage and die so I thought that her training could be only focused on increasing time in which she could stay in awakened state. After all even fully awakened Alicia wouldn't be able to kill Riful in a split of a second (we saw how long went Isley vs Luciella battle) so after she went through her limit and returned back to claymore form she would be killed instantly - that was my reasoning.

Yup, I read this manga entirely too much, so I remember stuff like that >.<

Sassarai

2007-10-19, 10:14

Back to square one:

Until you awaken... become stronger! And then wake up, that way you will become even stronger awakened beings.
~Riful - chapter 49

I dont think Riful knows whether if Claymores are going to be strong or weak. She tortured many Claymores and made them turn into ABS. Then she took a stab at it and she guessed that only low rank Claymores make strong ABS since all the high rank ones were pretty weak. So my guess is that she thinks that if they become stronger Claymores they might become powerful ABs o_O. That make sense lol?

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-19, 14:09

I dont think Riful knows whether if Claymores are going to be strong or weak. She tortured many Claymores and made them turn into ABS. Then she took a stab at it and she guessed that only low rank Claymores make strong ABS since all the high rank ones were pretty weak. So my guess is that she thinks that if they become stronger Claymores they might become powerful ABs o_O. That make sense lol?

????

I got quite the opposite impression actually.

Riful did not even care about lower ranked Claymores, as proven by Katea, and she only wanted higher ranked ones, like Jean.

Her sudden change of tune came when she layed eyes on the half-awakened Clare, she obviously saw something there.
Perhaps the potential to grow outside the normal limits of power?

Jean also managed to come back from the brink, from the very edge so to speak, and this peaked Riful's interest even more.

So naturally Riful was interested in seeing the outcome of allowing these unique individuals grow, and to someday awaken them.

------------------------------------

Oh, I didn't answer it because I thought it was rhetorical. My point still is that her answer was plausible, and that's all it needed to be under the circumstances, that (presumably) she had never conducted herself in anyway that would arouse their suspicion before that they would bother to check up on her story.

Oh really? Orsay sure did not think so, if I remember correctly he said this on Teresa after she killed the bandits;

"You finally did it. I knew this day would come"

His statment makes it obvious that he was suspicious of Teresa for a while.

Her answer was also not plausible at all, how the hell would normal Yoma even touch her? the Organization, even if not accurately, knew Teresa's power level, normaly Yoma couldn't scratch her.

Doesn't matter. All Teresa admitted to was not detecting her presence initially, thus giving an opportunity for a sneak attack. That doesn't mean she was unguarded and would not have been able to react sufficiently against that sneak attack.

The complete shock on her face tells a different story, and she herself admitted it would have gotten her. Even if your on guard, if someone is coming to stab you from behind, and you did not know they were there, you would get stabbed.

But that's my point I think. She couldn't deceive the org about her power. Based upon her naivete, she would have no motive to either.

It is possible she just never used Yoki before, she obviously had very poor control over it. Thus she must have not had much experience handeling it.

That's an interesting factor I haven't considered. But my thoughts on Clare is that she has Teresa's full potential to tap into because of Teresa's yoma material. What makes it difficult to tap into it is because she is indeed a different hybrid being 3/4 human. But after her latest, more advanced semi-awakening, she has shown to be stronger as a semi-awakened than a fully-awakened number 2. Come on, man. There's got to be a lot going for that Yoma material.

That is kind of what I mean by compatibility. Clare had a low compatibility with Teresa's Yoma, but the more she awakens, the more compatible she becomes with her Teresa side, thus the reason she grows exponentially stronger with her partial-awakenings.
If the Organization had that Yoma material on hand, they probably would stick it in more then one Claymore.

(snip)I'm simply calling where I think Riful is wrong in her thinking.

That is kind of the point of this arguement, interpreting Riful's words. If Riful is completely wrong, then yet this entire arguement has no substance for either side, but from what we have seen of the Partialy-awakened development, she could indeed be correct.
Clare in Rabona became an AB she would have very likely been completely different then Pieta Clare becoming an AB.
The only real changes in this time are Clare's partial-awakenings, thus we can guesstimate that the partial-awakening = more powerful AB, as Riful stated.

azurie

2007-10-19, 14:21

????

I got quite the opposite impression actually.

Riful did not even care about lower ranked Claymores, as proven by Katea, and she only wanted higher ranked ones, like Jean.

Her sudden change of tune came when she layed eyes on the half-awakened Clare, she obviously saw something there, the potential to grow outside the normal limits of power, and the same thing happened to Jean. So naturally Riful was interested in seeing the outcome off all that.
i think she sensed the yoki of teresa just as in episode 25 - 26 so did easely did or at least that's the impression i got from what he said.

Sassarai

2007-10-19, 14:26

????

I got quite the opposite impression actually.

Riful did not even care about lower ranked Claymores, as proven by Katea, and she only wanted higher ranked ones, like Jean.

I dont think Riful knows whether if Claymores are going to be strong or weak. She tortured many Claymores and made them turn into ABS. Then she took a stab at it and she guessed that only low rank Claymores make strong ABS since all the high rank ones were pretty weak.

Her sudden change of tune came when she layed eyes on the half-awakened Clare, she obviously saw something there.
Perhaps the potential to grow outside the normal limits of power?

Jean also managed to come back from the brink, from the very edge so to speak, and this peaked Riful's interest even more.

So naturally Riful was interested in seeing the outcome of allowing these unique individuals grow, and to someday awaken them.

So my guess is that she thinks that if they become stronger Claymores they might become powerful ABs o_O. That make sense lol?

lol sounds similar to what Ive said.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-19, 14:28

i think she sensed the yoki of teresa just as in episode 25 - 26 so did easely did or at least that's the impression i got from what he said.

Then what about Jean? Her statement included both Clare and Jean, so it cannot just be the Teresa-factor peaking Riful's interest. Besides the anime is not very reliable for stuff like that.

Priscilla never responded to Clare's yoki oddly in the Manga, yet she could sense it quite well.
Irene was the only one who could detect a faint hint of Teresa in Clare's aura.

---------------

I edited my above post with more info btw :p

Edit: To Sassarai

Your definatly confusing me, Riful clearly stated that Strong Claymores = Strong AB, hell she herself is living proof of that.

My guessing is we are have a confusion of words here, do you mean higher rank= higher number or higher rank = single digit?

Because I am referring to Higher Rank = Single digits.

Sassarai

2007-10-19, 14:30

low rank = i meant low numbers my fault for the confusion
high rank meaning high numbers lol ops

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-19, 14:34

Lol glad we got that cleared up. :heh::heh:

Sassarai

2007-10-19, 14:57

I didn't bring this up because I was arguing against a point you made about it. I was just completing my thought process. But I think where we might depart (I'm not really sure) is that some people think that that potential is limitless, when it's not. There's the full measure of power that one reaches by awakening, so it's finite. There's a threshold wherein if passed one cannot return, save for that semi-awakening phenomenon where the threshold is increased to wherever they happen to return from. But that extends only their threshold which consequently extends the available power. I don't think it increases the power that they would have if/when they fully awaken. I'm simply calling where I think Riful is wrong in her thinking.

OMG I AGREE WITH KHRYOLEOZ THE WORLD IS DOOM! Well actually Ive already stated it awhile back. I think Riful is wrong too. She doesn't seem like an expert in the field. I mean limitless power would = DBZ!! I mean look at Claymore's history of ABs. All the powerful ones were no1 no2. I don't think there has been any evidence of a low rank strong AB yet. Exception probably would be Clare since shes "special"

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-19, 16:53

OMG I AGREE WITH KHRYOLEOZ THE WORLD IS DOOM! Well actually Ive already stated it awhile back. I think Riful is wrong too. She doesn't seem like an expert in the field. I mean limitless power would = DBZ!! I mean look at Claymore's history of ABs. All the powerful ones were no1 no2. I don't think there has been any evidence of a low rank strong AB yet. Exception probably would be Clare since shes "special"

As I said, we have no clue whether it is really unlimited or not, but it probably allows quite a dramatic increase in power. There is also the matter of them potentially awakening whenever they attempt to go over their limit.

All the powerful ABs were indeed higher single digits, but it appears the partially-awakening is a relativly new phenomina (judging by Riful's reaction to it)

Clare is also not the only exception as we have Miria, Deneve, and Helen, but Clare probably has the most to gain form it.

Even if it was limitless power like DBZ, DBZ had almost no risk involved with power, while Claymore certainly has a serious risk factor involved, awakening.

Sassarai

2007-10-19, 17:06

As I said, we have no clue whether it is really unlimited or not, but it probably allows quite a dramatic increase in power. There is also the matter of them potentially awakening whenever they attempt to go over their limit.

All the powerful ABs were indeed higher single digits, but it appears the partially-awakening is a relativly new phenomina (judging by Riful's reaction to it)

Clare is also not the only exception as we have Miria, Deneve, and Helen, but Clare probably has the most to gain form it.

Even if it was limitless power like DBZ, DBZ had almost no risk involved with power, while Claymore certainly has a serious risk factor involved, awakening.

I dont think just Rifuls reaction alone would be evidence enough since I doubt partially awakened claymores would tell others what happened. Plus the manga made it sound like Riful was just a genius and released all her powers so she wasnt in the org that long. (not too sure)

What I meant when I said clare is an exception is we already knew she has a strong AB form but as for helen miria and deneve we dont. When Riful said get stronger then awaken I assume she meant fully awaken. Are you referring to them being stronger just being partially?

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-19, 17:19

I dont think just Rifuls reaction alone would be evidence enough since I doubt partially awakened claymores would tell others what happened. Plus the manga made it sound like Riful was just a genius and released all her powers so she wasnt in the org that long. (not too sure)

Riful is one of the oldest and most experienced beings in the Claymore-verse, so her word counts for quite a bit, especially since her Yoki-reading skills seem quite impressive.

What I meant when I said clare is an exception is we already knew she has a strong AB form but as for helen miria and deneve we dont. When Riful said get stronger then awaken I assume she meant fully awaken. Are you referring to them being stronger just being partially?

Riful said this:

"By the way: You two are halfway there already. Rather then forcefully awaken you now, leaving you to ripen a bit more and then reaping the results seems far more delicous. Until you awaken become stronger! and then wake up. That way you will become even stronger awakened beings!"

So yes I did mean partially-awaken is making them stronger, there is no denying that, we have already seen clear evidence in Helen, Deneve, and Clare who can match single digits, and Miria, who even for a short time, could match speeds with an Awakened #2.

Sassarai

2007-10-19, 17:25

Oh im sure partial awakening makes them stronger I was referring to full blown AB mode.

As for riful knowing I still doubt it cuz Miria Clare Deneve and Helen awakened before and she never knew about it. Isnt Dewellers of the deep/abyss meant they just settle at a certain area and hid themselves? Plus shes a loli I mean she must of gotten out of the organization very fast.

Tempest35

2007-10-19, 18:23

Well, look at how young Miata is and she possesses a power to rival the top digits easily. Riful was probably a little older when she was 'Claymorized' and of course a genius would test one's limits rather quickly so yeah she Awakened.
Being 'Claymorized' slows your aging tremendously but Awakening totally freezes it from that point on.

As for the rest of the Fab 4, we really don't know how strong they would be if they Awakened because they would sure as hell die before they would cross that line. Or at least want to, despite the emotional toll it would exact upon the others. I'll take anime Helen's reaction to Clare asking her to kill her over the manga any day since it was so...emotional. :D

And thanks to Yagi-sensei's weird imaginations, I can't even begin to speculate as to what sort of forms the girls would have since an ABs body is a twisted reflection of their soul and personality and apparently desires thanks to Clare's near Awakening.

I mean, look at Jean's AB form - a freakin butterfly - when she had the most powerful attack technique of her time - a drill no less. Did she want to be beautiful? Did she not consider herself beautiful? She was a warrior yes, but she was still a woman so maybe that underlying desire was manifested in her AB form?

Meh, deviated from the main topic there...I wish SimplyEd was still around - that way I could ask for an analysis of the AB forms that we have seen so far and how they showcase the AB's personality and mindset. :D

I'll finish below later. :3

Clare's RPG stats.
- Irene's Arm = +5 to DEX; +1 to power for initiating Quicksword

- 'Will of the Fallen' - Ophelia's wish = +3 to Mental Fortitude ATTR. -1 to rollsaves to initiate moves that require willpower (Quicksword)

Fate_Archer

2007-10-19, 19:04

She did so with Irene's arm, a arm that is quite probably capable of performing Flora's Windcutter better then Flora could. Clare brought out the latent "potential" of Irene's arm to use the Windcutter.

Yes, it could be Irene's arm.
It is an arm very suited for such technique.
It makes me think that Clare is the greatest "cheater" of this series.
Point conceded. :)

I agree, although I think mental is vitally important to the practicality of Yoki use.

"nod" too.

But was she changing their trajectory or Dauf's aim?

It could be both.

Indeed, she was changing the trajectory of Duff's punches and blows.
Like that time when he lift both his arms and went with all his force to squash Galatea, and then, in the next scene, we saw Galatea standing on the same exact place, almost inside Duff's hands.
(When I saw this, I thought "Wow!!!"... that was the epitome of security and control... amazing :bow:)

But, for the poles, she probably changed their targets, which means Duff's aim.

Change the trajectory of the poles in the air would be a radical thing.
They're launched with great speed. Even for a master like Galatea, it sounds too difficult.

Although it is theoretically possible. As Clare sensed, Duff's poles had significant amounts of yoki.
This also could explain the strange behavior of Easleys's arrows. To manipulate them, he could be aligning yoki with the arrows.
It must be easier doing this trick with an object that was part of or belongs to his body. (same yoki level)

Hmmm...sounds logical.

But, all this was just to show you that Galatea can handle with multiple targets, though she can't manipulate multiple Claymores, as far as we have seen.

True enough, I do think Partially-awakening has a limit to its power increase, but we have yet to see it. We just might with Alicia and Beth.

Yeah, lets wait and see if this speculation is right.
Can't wait to see the twins again in the series too.

It would not surprise me if the Organization had a fall-back plan like that.

They probably do. Alicia is the top sensation now, but I think Beth will give us a great or even greater surprise as well.

--------------------

About the veracity of Riful's statement.
Well, most counter-arguments that I'm seeing claim that Riful could be simply wrong because she never saw the partially awakening phenomena, so she couldn't make any true statements about it.

Right, she probably never saw the partially awakening phenomenon, but to state such thing, she really doesn't have to know it.
Even if she doesn't, what she really have to understand to make such statement, is the process of awakening, which she knows pretty much well.
She was also the youngest to unleash this power in history.

Let's look at her reasoning:

She was looking for really strong Claymores, that are normally found in the lower digits of the Organization.
If she awake a strong Claymore, say a single digit, the resulting awakened being is going to be a really powerful one.
Ok until here.

But she met a partially awakened Claymore, that showed her how strong, fast and powerful a partially awakened Claymore can be.
A medium or even weak Claymore partially awakened can be almost as powerful or so powerful as a single digit.
So, if she awake a partially awakened Claymore, the resulting awakened being is going to be so powerful as a single digit awakened being. (or almost)

She realized that the partially awakening greatly increases several stats and make Claymores even stronger.
So, instead of making they awake now, she let them evolve and develop even more, so they could be even more powerful awakened beings, when they finally awake.

I think that's what she meant.

Also, regarding that:

To any Claymore, a boost of partially awakening is too much risky.

First, because awakening means lost all their humanity. This would mean lost everything that they had been fighting for.
They probably won't risk going closer to something like that anymore.

Second, because no one can guarantee that the Claymore doing this will be able to get back. No one.

Third, even with a supporter to help bringing her back, that is no guarantee that she will always succeed. We saw what happened to Luciela.
A failure could mean the death of all involved.

Unless, the supporter has trained great part of her life for doing this.
That's the case of the twins.

And this, led me to think that the Organization has the main piece of the chess set now.

But even with the theoretical advantage, all the process of awakening is too much delicate, even for them who were training great parts of their lives for doing such thing.
It doesn't look like the type of thing that you could do in the same way you put your shoes.

Anyway, it is all a theory and like any other, it could be wrong.
It supports nearly unlimited power, which is an absurd thing. But it would be very unlikely though.

Also, Riful, as Teresa, doesn't seem to be the type of character that lies.

But in the same way people seem to dislike DBZ comparisons, I dislike too.
I would definitely stop seeing Claymore if Clare threw something like a "Kamehame-ha" composed of yoki.

The thing is, we are not throwing out personal ideas. It all have basis, according to the hints, statements and speeches of the characters.

Sassarai

2007-10-20, 02:08

Flar

2007-10-20, 03:59

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-20, 10:05

About this DBZ infinite power-up thing, remember what the MIB said to Alicia at the end of chapter 49:

"Your training will move on to the next stage, we will be raising your power and speed by 30% step by step from now on, comprehend that the strain on your body will be doubled" (emphasis mine)

It seems clear that Alicia has already pseudo-awakened, since they try to determine if her current power is sufficient, but there is still something that limits the power-ups, a strain too great on anyone is synonymous of death.

We saw this in chapter 64 with Luciela too: even Abyssal Ones have an upper limit beyond which they are forced to cool down.

So going out on a limb about the awakening thing: what if the power of the result AB was a factor of the power of the current body of the Claymore? Half-awakening would speed the training process by making the human Claymore more resistant to the stress and more used to power, but it would not be necessary.
As to the thing about "potential", what about the power surge is the same but in the case of a a powerful Claymore that power is more efficiently used and harnessed? Like giving Superman's power to a bum versus giving it to a kung-fu master. If it includes body mods, wouldn't the fighting specialist design his to be so much deadlier than the noob's?

The strain is a good point, it is kind of what I ment by this "infinite power up" being limited by the risk. Even Alicia and Beth suffer an immense amount of strain when doing their soul-link, so it would be close to impossible for anyone to abuse this "potential" well of power.

In Lucalea's case it was more exhaustion then anything, she did not have the energy to maintain her Awakened form after fighting with Isley.
Which supports the theory that awakened beings use alot of their SS < energy to maintain their bodies.

The thing is all Claymores are trained the same way, but some are just purely more powerful then others, which means that it cannot just be a matter of effecient energy use, although that certainly helps in the case of Flash-sword and Miria's Phantoms.

--------------------------------

As for Fate_Archer's post

It could be both.

Indeed, she was changing the trajectory of Duff's punches and blows.
Like that time when he lift both his arms and went with all his force to squash Galatea, and then, in the next scene, we saw Galatea standing on the same exact place, almost inside Duff's hands.
(When I saw this, I thought "Wow!!!"... that was the epitome of security and control... amazing )

But, for the poles, she probably changed their targets, which means Duff's aim.

Change the trajectory of the poles in the air would be a radical thing.
They're launched with great speed. Even for a master like Galatea, it sounds too difficult.

Although it is theoretically possible. As Clare sensed, Duff's poles had significant amounts of yoki.
This also could explain the strange behavior of Easleys's arrows. To manipulate them, he could be aligning yoki with the arrows.
It must be easier doing this trick with an object that was part of or belongs to his body. (same yoki level)

Hmmm...sounds logical.

But, all this was just to show you that Galatea can handle with multiple targets, though she can't manipulate multiple Claymores, as far as we have seen.

Sounds about right to me, Isley's arrows are a damn interesting thing, even Dauf's rods don't compare to those things.

About the veracity of Riful's statement.
Well, most counter-arguments that I'm seeing claim that Riful could be simply wrong because she never saw the partially awakening phenomena, so she couldn't make any true statements about it.

Right, she probably never saw the partially awakening phenomenon, but to state such thing, she really doesn't have to know it.
Even if she doesn't, what she really have to understand to make such statement, is the process of awakening, which she knows pretty much well.
She was also the youngest to unleash this power in history.

Let's look at her reasoning:

She was looking for really strong Claymores, that are normally found in the lower digits of the Organization.
If she awake a strong Claymore, say a single digit, the resulting awakened being is going to be a really powerful one.
Ok until here.

But she met a partially awakened Claymore, that showed her how strong, fast and powerful a partially awakened Claymore can be.
A medium or even weak Claymore partially awakened can be almost as powerful or so powerful as a single digit.
So, if she awake a partially awakened Claymore, the resulting awakened being is going to be so powerful as a single digit awakened being. (or almost)

She realized that the partially awakening greatly increases several stats and make Claymores even stronger.
So, instead of making they awake now, she let them evolve and develop even more, so they could be even more powerful awakened beings, when they finally awake.

I think that's what she meant.

About what I thought as well, she saw the potential to claim more powerful AB allies by allowing the partially-awakened Claymore's to grow. She must have been in a real good mood to spare Galatea though, or maybe Alicia spooked her.

To any Claymore, a boost of partially awakening is too much risky.

First, because awakening means lost all their humanity. This would mean lost everything that they had been fighting for.
They probably won't risk going closer to something like that anymore.

Second, because no one can guarantee that the Claymore doing this will be able to get back. No one.

Third, even with a supporter to help bringing her back, that is no guarantee that she will always succeed. We saw what happened to Luciela.
A failure could mean the death of all involved.

Unless, the supporter has trained great part of her life for doing this.
That's the case of the twins.

And this, led me to think that the Organization has the main piece of the chess set now.

But even with the theoretical advantage, all the process of awakening is too much delicate, even for them who were training great parts of their lives for doing such thing.
It doesn't look like the type of thing that you could do in the same way you put your shoes

I agree completely, it involved far to much risk, but Alicia and Beth are the best equipped to do it if it is indeed possible.

Anyway, it is all a theory and like any other, it could be wrong.
It supports nearly unlimited power, which is an absurd thing. But it would be very unlikely though.

Also, Riful, as Teresa, doesn't seem to be the type of character that lies.

But in the same way people seem to dislike DBZ comparisons, I dislike too.
I would definitely stop seeing Claymore if Clare threw something like a "Kamehame-ha" composed of yoki.

The thing is, we are not throwing out personal ideas. It all have basis, according to the hints, statements and speeches of the characters.

Hehe such is the way of Theories, it does support unlimited power, but is it really unlimited with the immense amount of risk and strain involved?

As for Riful; I agree she does not seem like the type of character to lie, she has supreme confidence in her abilities, and before meeting Priscilla, I doubt she really considered anything a threat to her, so she would have no reason to lie.

I would be pretty shocked if Clare ever did something like that. :upset:

and yes, none of us are just pulling this huge debate out of no-where, most of us have pretty valid points, even if i believe some of the others to be wrong :p

-----------------------------------

Aren't they personal ideas based on hints,statements, speeches? aka assumptions? Which is pretty
much all this debating is about? I dont see right or wrong answers until the manga artist decides to clear
things up

I think that was what he was getting at, we won't know who is right until Yagi gives us a definiate answer. :uhoh:

Sassarai

2007-10-20, 11:51

As to the thing about "potential", what about the power surge is the same but in the case of a a powerful Claymore that power is more efficiently used and harnessed? Like giving Superman's power to a bum versus giving it to a kung-fu master. If it includes body mods, wouldn't the fighting specialist design his to be so much deadlier than the noob's?

:twitch: SAY WHATT!!???

I don't get it.

Flar

2007-10-20, 11:52

The thing is all Claymores are trained the same way, but some are just purely more powerful then others, which means that it cannot just be a matter of effecient energy use, although that certainly helps in the case of Flash-sword and Miria's Phantoms.I meant in case of an awakening. The size of the power-up may vary from claymore to claymore, but if a noob claymore gets 100000 XP points, she probably will mess up and upgrade to an AB form that will be totally overwhelmed by the AB from of an experienced warrior who only got 50000 XP to spend wisely. Just look at the effectiveness of flash sword against fully awakened beings, and Clare only uses a ridiculously tiny amount of Yoki to make it that powerful.

Not saying that if she awakened, the Teresa power well wouldn't make her a goddess.

About what I thought as well, she saw the potential to claim more powerful AB allies by allowing the partially-awakened Claymore's to grow. She must have been in a real good mood to spare Galatea though, or maybe Alicia spooked her.Riful is that cool. Honest, intelligent, playful, whimsical and totally amoral. I love how she laughed at herself in chapter 71 "Gosh all that effort for nothing, that is pathetic".

Speaking about that, in those 7 years she must have accumulated quite a high number of AB if she specifically targets all the high digit claymores she can sense, like Audrey and Rachel, they couldn't have been the first she got in her clucthes (well, hair, rather). Then again, Miria found her firend's sword in the mountain, so I can't discard miraculous coincidences.

DazarGaidin

2007-10-20, 15:04

I wonder, will they release that stat book in english?

Great Archer reference up there btw lol

azurie

2007-10-20, 16:52

most of the books be it manga or the stat book i can't even get where i live sadly =(

DazarGaidin

2007-10-20, 17:40

Can't you order it online? I'd figure you could order anything if your in the usa :D

azurie

2007-10-20, 17:55

could yeah but that cost $$ if i knew where to get it

Sassarai

2007-10-20, 18:08

Great Archer reference up there btw lol

MY WHOLE LIFE WAS UNLIMITED SASS WORKS!

Anyways why would you want the stat book when you got the stats here. Might as well send me the money and ill make you a stat book.

Fate_Archer

2007-10-20, 19:03

Alright Guess ill just have to use Ulimited Sass Works to defeat you all

"I am the bone of my claymore.

Half yoma is my body, and yoki is in my blood.

I've defeated over a thousand ABs.

Unaware of loss.
Nor aware of gain

With stood pain to defeated those ABs.

I have no regrets. This is the only path.

My whole life was "Unlimited SASS works!"
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/5712/sassvg0.jpg

Ha Ha Ha!!!

That was a good one. :D
Keep coming with your funny stuff, it will only make this thread even better. :)

Aren't they personal ideas based on hints,statements, speeches? aka assumptions? Which is pretty
much all this debating is about? I dont see right or wrong answers until the manga artist decides to clear
things up.

If they were assumptions, they would be right without any questions, and there wouldn't be anything to discuss about it.
Everything that the author say is right, unless it's something that makes part of the plot, like the power level of Priscilla, where we first were told that she was weaker than the Abyssals, and then later, it was revealed to us that she was actually a lot stronger.
So, the best we can do about the answer of all these things, is to wait patiently. Claymore still has about 13 volumes to be released.
If Yagi-sensei continues with his great work, all or most of our questions probably are going to be answered.

Sassarai

2007-10-20, 19:08

Ha Ha Ha!!!

That was a good one. :D
Keep coming with your funny stuff, it will only make this thread even better. :)

I make any thread better :heh:

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-20, 19:53

I meant in case of an awakening. The size of the power-up may vary from claymore to claymore, but if a noob claymore gets 100000 XP points, she probably will mess up and upgrade to an AB form that will be totally overwhelmed by the AB from of an experienced warrior who only got 50000 XP to spend wisely. Just look at the effectiveness of flash sword against fully awakened beings, and Clare only uses a ridiculously tiny amount of Yoki to make it that powerful.

Not saying that if she awakened, the Teresa power well wouldn't make her a goddess.

I think I get what you mean, but I am saying that a partially-awakened ignores this rule, or atleast changes it.

The flash sword also effectivly psuedo-awakens her right arm to do a series of powerful slashes, so the awakened arm of a #2 would toast most ABs.

Riful is that cool. Honest, intelligent, playful, whimsical and totally amoral. I love how she laughed at herself in chapter 71 "Gosh all that effort for nothing, that is pathetic".

Speaking about that, in those 7 years she must have accumulated quite a high number of AB if she specifically targets all the high digit claymores she can sense, like Audrey and Rachel, they couldn't have been the first she got in her clucthes (well, hair, rather). Then again, Miria found her firend's sword in the mountain, so I can't discard miraculous coincidences.

Possibly, but she must have also had alot of trouble with it, with Alicia around she could not risk hunting down single digits very often.

Audrey and Rachel could have very well been the first single digits she has tried to capture, simply because she cannot risk confronting Alicia with the threat of Isley/Priscilla around, not to mention this new generation is very new, the Organization was recovering from losing a large # of Claymores from the Battle of Pieta.

Flar

2007-10-21, 03:22

The flash sword also effectivly psuedo-awakens her right arm to do a series of powerful slashes, so the awakened arm of a #2 would toast most ABs.But the real awakening of this arm was much more powerful (Superb). So wouldn't you agree that depending on how you awaken, your final form may be more or less efficient, like Clare demonstrates, when you have the same basis potential?

It does not make sense that in both cases the arm awakens yet the Queen of Blades mode is so much more powerful and both forms are supposed to represent unlocking of its full potential. I mean: difference in power = same power ? huh?

Possibly, but she must have also had alot of trouble with it, with Alicia around she could not risk hunting down single digits very often.I'm certain she said the situation is identical to what it was with Luciela, 3 AO in a fragile balance of power. If she was hunted, or it was that easy to take her out, Alicia would have killed her already during these seven years. Fact is, if Alicia fights Riful and wins, she gives Isley the opportunity to destroy the org. Keeping in mind the org doesn't necessarily know Pris is Isley's ace, if they even know she is with him. Look at the War in the North: When tracking the developments, they only cared about Isley's movements. (which opens another can of worm: where do Claymore scouts hide their cellphones?)

Audrey and Rachel could have very well been the first single digits she has tried to capture, simply because she cannot risk confronting Alicia with the threat of Isley/Priscilla around, not to mention this new generation is very new, the Organization was recovering from losing a large # of Claymores from the Battle of Pieta.It sounds too convenient. Seven years, multiple Claymores all over the country, including the forsaken North, Awakened Beings all over the place (as we see with Miata and Clarice) where in Clare's time there were only Yomas in hiding, and Riful could only have met single digits in striking distance of org HQ? I'm skeptical, and even more when she's talking about "harvesting".

As for Claymore generations, the MiB said to Galatea said 7 years ago that replacements were ready for the 300 24.
Also, each time we had a Claymore death, she seemed to be replaced quickly enough for it not to matter... The MiB even say it's best when they die fast, proof they aren't too bothered with keeping the numbers high.

DazarGaidin

2007-10-21, 07:43

I would want the stat book because....its freaking claymore material and i want it all? :P

King Lycan

2007-10-21, 09:17

Undine: No.11 (175 CM Tall)

Yoki: C
Agility: C
Strength: A
Mental: C
Sense: C
Leadership: C+

Undine should Be A+

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-21, 11:06

But the real awakening of this arm was much more powerful (Superb). So wouldn't you agree that depending on how you awaken, your final form may be more or less efficient, like Clare demonstrates, when you have the same basis potential?

It does not make sense that in both cases the arm awakens yet the Queen of Blades mode is so much more powerful and both forms are supposed to represent unlocking of its full potential. I mean: difference in power = same power ? huh?

Queen of Blades mode had alot more going for it then just an Awakened #2's arm, it had a whole lot of Teresa power in it too, otherwise Rigaldo could have matched just a Awakened #2's form, because he is one himself. The only real advantage of the fully awakened arm was it had more blades, I doubt the speed was any better in all honesty, their were just more of them to dodge. So as far as form goes, yes it was better, but in terms of power, probably not by much because of the nature of the quick-sword itself.

I'm certain she said the situation is identical to what it was with Luciela, 3 AO in a fragile balance of power. If she was hunted, or it was that easy to take her out, Alicia would have killed her already during these seven years. Fact is, if Alicia fights Riful and wins, she gives Isley the opportunity to destroy the org. Keeping in mind the org doesn't necessarily know Pris is Isley's ace, if they even know she is with him. Look at the War in the North: When tracking the developments, they only cared about Isley's movements. (which opens another can of worm: where do Claymore scouts hide their cellphones?)

The situation being the same as with Lucalea is exactly the point, she could not risk wandering too far out of her territory, especially with Isley and Priscilla at large, she may have captured a few single digits over the years, but her frustration shows that she has not been as successful as she would like.

Fighting Alicia presents a huge risk for Riful, because Alicia is just as strong as she is, and has the entire organization backing her up, while from what we have seen Riful has Dauf.

They also only kept track of Isley movement because he was the one with the most followers, and was actively using them, unlike the other two who kept to their territories.

It sounds too convenient. Seven years, multiple Claymores all over the country, including the forsaken North, Awakened Beings all over the place (as we see with Miata and Clarice) where in Clare's time there were only Yomas in hiding, and Riful could only have met single digits in striking distance of org HQ? I'm skeptical, and even more when she's talking about "harvesting".

The ABs being everywhere is just proof of how on the defensive the Organization has been forced to become, otherwise the AB population would have taken a heavy hit. She has probably been searching for single digits as before, and there are only 9 of those, and at least 3 of them are out of reach: Alicia, Beth, and Miata.

As for Claymore generations, the MiB said to Galatea said 7 years ago that replacements were ready for the 300 24.
Also, each time we had a Claymore death, she seemed to be replaced quickly enough for it not to matter... The MiB even say it's best when they die fast, proof they aren't too bothered with keeping the numbers high.

He said that they can always be replaced, not that their replacements were ready right at that moment. I do not remember Ophelia or #7 getting replaced quickly, in fact we have never seen any single digit get replaced until a new generation.
The Organization had to contact Raphaela after they lost their top 5 last time, they were that short on man-power. Lower digits are easy to replace, but single digits are another matter entirely.

m1b1us

2007-10-21, 13:48

I would want the stat book because....its freaking claymore material and i want it all? :P

contact me and we see

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-21, 13:52

Edit: NM, you fixed it :D

Flar

2007-10-21, 15:05

So as far as form goes, yes it was better, but in terms of power, probably not by much because of the nature of the quick-sword itself.But you agree that both are a different awakening and that Clare's potential is the same as (erm) Clare's potential, right?
It directly contradicts the argument that say an awakened form is the same no matter what the training, motivation or experience of the base Claymore, since awakening is realizing your full potential. If it was like that, (half) awakening would only give one result, not two or more depending on the situation.

The situation being the same as with Lucalea is exactly the point, she could not risk wandering too far out of her territory, especially with Isley and Priscilla at large,That's a bit ridiculous, she was inches from Isley and Pris after the fight with luciella and she didn't get ripped to shreds. And if it was that easy to get Pris to attack, Isley would have brought her with him again Luciela. ES3 and Raki kinda made it clear Pris is only fighting when attacked.

Fighting Alicia presents a huge risk for Riful, because Alicia is just as strong as she is, and has the entire organization backing her up, while from what we have seen Riful has Dauf. Riful and Duf can own a dozen above average AB alone. I doubt even 47 Claymores would change anything in a fight between abyssals. Look at Audrey and Rachel's performance... you would have 46 Claymores out seconds after the fight began. But anyway, Riful was awakening Claymores before even meeting Clare, so I have no reason to think it would only be her and Duff would pushes come to shove.

They also only kept track of Isley movement because he was the one with the most followers, and was actively using them, unlike the other two who kept to their territories.Oh, I agree, they tracked him because he built his army and made a move, and because there was a battle against him underway in Pieta. What I meant is that they tracked him and not Priscilla, who was with him. The corrolary is that they don't recognize Priscilla as a key player, or they simply don't know she's there.

The ABs being everywhere is just proof of how on the defensive the Organization has been forced to become, otherwise the AB population would have taken a heavy hit. She has probably been searching for single digits as before, and there are only 9 of those, and at least 3 of them are out of reach: Alicia, Beth, and Miata.Why would the org have been forced to become defensive, exactly? The situation is the same as before except one of the three Abyssals works for them now.
The signs actually point at them becoming more offensive, with them sending teams against AB without requests.

And anyway, no matter the org's stance, these numerous AB have to come from somewhere. Isley's army got destroyed with his blessing, he didn't need them anymore with Pris at his side, so who would have produced them? Either they were always there, or they come from newly awakened Claymores. The fact that Clare never got attacked like Clarice was points somewhat toward the latter, imho.

(On that note, where do Yoma come from, is it possible to get an AB from injecting human cells in a Yoma, and can a yoma have a child with a human (and what would be the result)?)

Lower digits are easy to replace, but single digits are another matter entirely.Not really. Being single digit only means you're currently better than most Claymores, it doesn't say anything about your power in absolute. If it did, it would mean any number one would be as strong as Teresa or Alicia.

Rankings also not necessarily reflect the AB power, since it's about potential, as Priscilla can attest. (even if, as I argue above, she could have been even more powerful with experience and training)

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-21, 16:10

But you agree that both are a different awakening and that Clare's potential is the same as (erm) Clare's potential, right?
It directly contradicts the argument that say an awakened form is the same no matter what the training, motivation or experience of the base Claymore, since awakening is realizing your full potential. If it was like that, (half) awakening would only give one result, not two or more depending on the situation.

It does not when you consider the fact Clare is partially-awakened, which changes the entire nature of the game. A normal Claymore's AB form would likely remain the same regardless of expereince, but a partially-awakened warrior is a different matter, as their power can grow above the norm and change the scope of their power.

That's a bit ridiculous, she was inches from Isley and Pris after the fight with luciella and she didn't get ripped to shreds. And if it was that easy to get Pris to attack, Isley would have brought her with him again Luciela. ES3 and Raki kinda made it clear Pris is only fighting when attacked.

Yes, Isley was supremely confident, although he himself was heavily injured he LET Riful go, because he knew she posed no threat now.

ES3 also shows us that only Isley and Rigaldo (now dead) know that Priscilla won't attacked unless threatened. Nobody else knows this little juicy fact.
She also may be more then willing to protect Isley, who promised to help her find her family.

Riful and Duf can own a dozen above average AB alone. I doubt even 47 Claymores would change anything in a fight between abyssals. Look at Audrey and Rachel's performance... you would have 46 Claymores out seconds after the fight began. But anyway, Riful was awakening Claymores before even meeting Clare, so I have no reason to think it would only be her and Duff would pushes come to shove.

I would venture a guess and say that someone like Miata would not go unnoticed in a battle between Abyssal ones, seeing as her power is freakish high.

Riful may have been awakening Claymores before she met Clare, but we have never seen any proof of her being sucessful.
She was experimenting with Katea and Jean, and she killed Katea because she thought she was too weak, and we have a full roaster of single digits at this time, so obviously Riful did not get any powerful ABs to join her yet. Remember it was only recently that Riful started trying to gather an AB army of her own.

Oh, I agree, they tracked him because he built his army and made a move, and because there was a battle against him underway in Pieta. What I meant is that they tracked him and not Priscilla, who was with him. The corrolary is that they don't recognize Priscilla as a key player, or they simply don't know she's there.

Well no one knew Priscilla's power at this point, so of course they were tracking Isley. :D

Why would the org have been forced to become defensive, exactly? The situation is the same as before except one of the three Abyssals works for them now.
The signs actually point at them becoming more offensive, with them sending teams against AB without requests.

The Organization now makes their Claymores form teams more often, so they do not get singled out, they NEED to strike out because they cannot afford to just take the hits anymore. Gone are the days when a Claymore could freely wander town to town safely.

The ABs are also forming groups of their own now.

And anyway, no matter the org's stance, these numerous AB have to come from somewhere. Isley's army got destroyed with his blessing, he didn't need them anymore with Pris at his side, so who would have produced them? Either they were always there, or they come from newly awakened Claymores. The fact that Clare never got attacked like Clarice was points somewhat toward the latter, imho.

We have 77+ generations of ABs roaming around the world, ABs were never very aggressive before (with a few exceptions) because they did not want the Organization bugging them, so of course Clare never got attacked, especially since she was stuck into the weakest district due to her strength, while Clarice is traveling around with #4 in some unknown districting hunting down Galatea.

Hell, Miata could be actively eliminating the ABs in the area just so she can find Galatea easier.

(On that note, where do Yoma come from, is it possible to get an AB from injecting human cells in a Yoma, and can a yoma have a child with a human (and what would be the result)?)

I get the feeling they are just a native life-form like humans. Possibly A-sexual.

Not really. Being single digit only means you're currently better than most Claymores, it doesn't say anything about your power in absolute. If it did, it would mean any number one would be as strong as Teresa or Alicia.

But a single digit generally means that you are powerful enough to become a powerful AB, and as I said, we have never seen an instance of a single digit being replaced without a new generation rolling around.

Rankings also not necessarily reflect the AB power, since it's about potential, as Priscilla can attest. (even if, as I argue above, she could have been even more powerful with experience and training)

Priscilla had alot of untapped potential, which is the reason she is so powerful now.
Her ranking was not final, as she was just recently promoted from nobody to #2 out of nowhere and with minimal experience, it was obvious she was going places. She is the exception, not the rule.

Flar

2007-10-22, 01:58

A normal Claymore's AB form would likely remain the same regardless of expereince, but a partially-awakened warrior is a different matter, as their power can grow above the norm and change the scope of their power.You're saying the Fabulous 4 can control the amount of awakening, so to speak, and only them?

I don't disagree, but I still think that since different awakenings are possible for the same person, normal Claymores also get to become different AB depending on the situation at the start.

Yes, Isley was supremely confident, although he himself was heavily injured he LET Riful go, because he knew she posed no threat now. So why would that change now that he's healed and that Riful poses even less threat?

I would venture a guess and say that someone like Miata would not go unnoticed in a battle between Abyssal ones, seeing as her power is freakish high.Her power isn't that freakish, it's the contrast with Clarice that makes seem so strong. When you think about it, most of what this girl does, any of the fabulous four can do too. Beat a group of Yomas, Clare did it. Beat ABs solo, Clare did it. Protect a whiny helpless brat, Clare did it. I'm not impressed, so far, except by the mindlessness and the savagery.

we have a full roaster of single digits at this time, so obviously Riful did not get any powerful ABs to join her yet. Remember it was only recently that Riful started trying to gather an AB army of her own.I cannot remember where this was stated. I can agree that ranks 1 to 9 are well known and apparently not newbies, except Eva, maybe. But it doesn't mean Riful couldn't have grabbed a Claymore here or there before or after. The coincidence would be ridiculous if Clare happened to be near Riful the two only times she attacked a single digit, in seven years and at a random place in a whole continent.

The Organization now makes their Claymores form teams more often, so they do not get singled out, they NEED to strike out because they cannot afford to just take the hits anymore. Gone are the days when a Claymore could freely wander town to town safely. They sent Clarice alone to Pieta.

Anyway... This only shows a new organisation, but the strategy is still offensive. Defensive means you actually wait the attack, not that you attack yourself.

We have 77+ generations of ABs roaming around the worldSo why couldn't Riful have formed an army, if they are so common?

as I said, we have never seen an instance of a single digit being replaced without a new generation rolling around.Number 5 by Rafaela.

Priscilla had alot of untapped potential... She is the exception, not the rule.I don't see it that way. Many other Claymores can have potential at the start and rise in the ranks through experience. That's what happened to Miria. Maybe Priscilla had more potential than regular Claymores, but Riful doesn't want ultra Abyssal ones, she wants normal single digits, producing normal powerful AB. Priscilla being a freak doesn't invalidate the concept of potential not being reflected by ranking.

That being said, if you are consistent, then you are actually saying that before half-awakening, Clare's potential was that of a #47. Is that right?

khryoleoz

2007-10-22, 02:30

Oh really? Orsay sure did not think so, if I remember correctly he said this on Teresa after she killed the bandits;

"You finally did it. I knew this day would come"

His statment makes it obvious that he was suspicious of Teresa for a while.

Her answer was also not plausible at all, how the hell would normal Yoma even touch her? the Organization, even if not accurately, knew Teresa's power level, normaly Yoma couldn't scratch her.

Such a statement reveals more about Ordsay's character as someone who holds a cynical and dubious view of human nature, which he projects at Teresa. He would have said the same thing about any other strong Claymore who disobeyed the cardinal rule of not killing people. Evidence does not lead to Teresa having continually made any suspicious moves. And how would Yoma touch her? Is it completely improbable? I think not. The fact is he didn't press the issue any further because Teresa gave him no reason to. All events shown indicate that up until meeting Clare, she had been a clear, level-headed and by all appearances a by-the-book kind of person. You do allow that "if not accurately" the org new Teresa's level. I happen to take that view a notch higher and think that what they knew was not exhaustive. I'll allow that even for Priscilla as it is plausible. But it seems that they were more deliberate about making Priscilla even stronger so they were probably more intimately aware of her potential than one whom they've already relegated to being succeeded sooner or later. Why gamble on a successor to someone who was at her peak and prime unless they thought that she was indeed nearing her own limits?

It does not when you consider the fact Clare is partially-awakened, which changes the entire nature of the game. A normal Claymore's AB form would likely remain the same regardless of expereince, but a partially-awakened warrior is a different matter, as their power can grow above the norm and change the scope of their power.
It's extreme to say that partial-awakenings change the "entire nature" of the game. All the partial awakenings show is that one can return from that which was thought to be a point of no return. And, that doing so results in extending that "point". The nature is left unchanged. The perceivable manifestation is that the particular Claymore is stronger with enhanced abilities, but the Claymore still has a limit and will awaken when passed that. We've seen only two unique situations where the awakening process was reversed in its advanced stages. With one, someone had to give up her life to do it. With the other, someone relinquishes psychological control over to another.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-22, 09:32

You're saying the Fabulous 4 can control the amount of awakening, so to speak, and only them?

I don't disagree, but I still think that since different awakenings are possible for the same person, normal Claymores also get to become different AB depending on the situation at the start.

I suppose their form would also be based on their own psychology at the time, but it is hard for us to judge, as Clare is the only one we have seen awaken step-by-step. Jean turned into a butterfly, does that mean she subconciously chose that form? We have no clue at this time, I am just basing this off assumptions after all :p

So why would that change now that he's healed and that Riful poses even less threat?

The point of view is Riful's, Isley may not care at all about Riful now, but Riful certainly feels threatened, and her somewhat rash actions show it.

Her power isn't that freakish, it's the contrast with Clarice that makes seem so strong. When you think about it, most of what this girl does, any of the fabulous four can do too. Beat a group of Yomas, Clare did it. Beat ABs solo, Clare did it. Protect a whiny helpless brat, Clare did it. I'm not impressed, so far, except by the mindlessness and the savagery.

Actually we have never seen anyone other then Ophelia/Teresa solo an AB, and only Teresa performed this feat easly. Clare never soloed an AB on her own, Ophelia even allowed her to win, as Ophelia herself proved she could have killed her at any time.

Miata on the other hand has basically killed a large number of AB while having a incrediably weak tag-along. Also tearing apart Yoma bare-handed is not something I could imagine Clare doing.

I cannot remember where this was stated. I can agree that ranks 1 to 9 are well known and apparently not newbies, except Eva, maybe. But it doesn't mean Riful couldn't have grabbed a Claymore here or there before or after. The coincidence would be ridiculous if Clare happened to be near Riful the two only times she attacked a single digit, in seven years and at a random place in a whole continent.

Eva was probably fine, but an army of ABs running you over would screw almost anyone.

Riful seemed awefully picky with her crop of warriors, so I doubt she just picked up weaker warriors for the sake of making them ABs, as she showed with Katea.

Single digits could also simply be deployed further away from her territory, Riful has quite the Sense range, but I doubt she would be able to sense any warrior that entered her territory.

They sent Clarice alone to Pieta.

True, but Pieta was basically a dead zone, the majority of ABs up north had already left.

Not to mention that they consider those below 30 "filler" anyway.

Anyway... This only shows a new organisation, but the strategy is still offensive. Defensive means you actually wait the attack, not that you attack yourself.

Pre-emptive strike is more like it, they understand that their backs are against the wall so to speak, so they are trying to weaken the # of ABs before they form an army again.

So why couldn't Riful have formed an army, if they are so common?

She only wants strong allies, and; as we saw with Dauf's buddies, many of them may not want to ally with Riful, and have either paid the price or avoided her.

Number 5 by Rafaela.

Who was a warrior from a previous generation who the Organization had to bribe to rejoin them, somehow I don't think that is a common occurance.

I don't see it that way. Many other Claymores can have potential at the start and rise in the ranks through experience. That's what happened to Miria. Maybe Priscilla had more potential than regular Claymores, but Riful doesn't want ultra Abyssal ones, she wants normal single digits, producing normal powerful AB. Priscilla being a freak doesn't invalidate the concept of potential not being reflected by ranking.

True enough, Miria did climb the ranks, but Riful herself probably checks their Yoki to make sure she can use them, so if they had the power to be a single digit, she would probably know. I cited Priscilla as a special case because people were using her as an example.

Miria is a far better example, as she did climb the ranks from non-single digit status.

That being said, if you are consistent, then you are actually saying that before half-awakening, Clare's potential was that of a #47. Is that right?

Yes, Clare never had the potential to go beyond that point because she was incapable of it due to her poor compatibility with Teresa's half, but her Partial-awakening changed that.

------------------------

Such a statement reveals more about Ordsay's character as someone who holds a cynical and dubious view of human nature, which he projects at Teresa. He would have said the same thing about any other strong Claymore who disobeyed the cardinal rule of not killing people. Evidence does not lead to Teresa having continually made any suspicious moves. And how would Yoma touch her? Is it completely improbable? I think not. The fact is he didn't press the issue any further because Teresa gave him no reason to.

We really do not know if Orsay's character is cynical or not, he could very well have suspected Teresa's rebellious streak for a while.

Teresa seemed to like bad-mouthing Organization members and saying things she shouldn't, so that adds on to the list of things the Organization would not like.

Yoma being able to scratch her up like that probably do not exist in this world either, considering her abilities.

He did not press the issue, because Teresa was still useful, and at that point, he had no reason to punish her for it, even if she was hiding things. Similiar how the Organization did not kill Galatea for hiding things from them, she was simply just too useful.

All events shown indicate that up until meeting Clare, she had been a clear, level-headed and by all appearances a by-the-book kind of person. You do allow that "if not accurately" the org new Teresa's level. I happen to take that view a notch higher and think that what they knew was not exhaustive.

All events also show she liked riling up normal humans, being saracastic and suggesting things about the Organization that the Organization would prefer she did not, and not to mention a somewhat "shady" excuse over how she got herself banged-up when she was sent to execute Rosemary.

They probably did not have exacts, but they probably knew she had the capability to defeat an awakened #2 solo.

I'll allow that even for Priscilla as it is plausible. But it seems that they were more deliberate about making Priscilla even stronger so they were probably more intimately aware of her potential than one whom they've already relegated to being succeeded sooner or later. Why gamble on a successor to someone who was at her peak and prime unless they thought that she was indeed nearing her own limits?

With Priscilla, it was simply a matter of stating the obvious, she climbed the ranks at an incrediable speed, and displayed a level of raw power and skill that was astounding for her experience level.
They probably compared it to what they saw from Teresa (young) and made a judgement call.

Also the reason they would gamble on a successor is because they suspected Teresa's rebellious nature, and wanted a more "secure" investment to take over the lead-spot, or at least be there if Teresa turned.
Having a back-up is always a good thing, as you never know what can happen out in the field.

Sassarai

2007-10-22, 10:41

Her power isn't that freakish, it's the contrast with Clarice that makes seem so strong. When you think about it, most of what this girl does, any of the fabulous four can do too. Beat a group of Yomas, Clare did it. Beat ABs solo, Clare did it. Protect a whiny helpless brat, Clare did it. I'm not impressed, so far, except by the mindlessness and the savagery.

lol but can the fab four kill that many with their BARE HANDS??!! Im gonna have to go Dragonball here and say that we havent seen her FOR REALZ REALZ POWERS. I mean if the organization tells us that she can challenge alicia for the no1 spot then shes gotta be super special.

Flar

2007-10-22, 11:20

Jean turned into a butterfly, does that mean she subconciously chose that form? We have no clue at this time, I am just basing this off assumptions after all :pSo am I, so am I :D

Thinking about it, a butterfly is oddly appropriate when hepless and pinned down through your abdomen.

The point of view is Riful's, Isley may not care at all about Riful now, but Riful certainly feels threatened, and her somewhat rash actions show it.I didn't feel her actions were any rasher than when Clare first met her, actually it seemed to follow the exact same modus operandi, except she was alone this time. I guess she should feel threatened by Isley's power boost, but it doesn't really show in how she acts, to me.

Clare never soloed an AB on her ownNever? What about Rigaldo? (ok ok, special circumstances, but still)

Miata on the other hand has basically killed a large number of AB while having a incrediably weak tag-along. Also tearing apart Yoma bare-handed is not something I could imagine Clare doing.I could, considering how these three AB in the north were flattened.

Agreed, Clare against Ophelia was a bit rigged, and Clare against Rigaldo was not the casual slaughter Miata performs on weak AB, yet with the (Yoki) power-up Priscilla witnessed and the 7 years training, I will assume weak ABs became cannon fodder for the ghost 7. In this perspective, Miata is not that impressive, even if she still is plenty strong.

Riful seemed awefully picky with her crop of warriors, so I doubt she just picked up weaker warriors for the sake of making them ABs, as she showed with Katea.She could have lucked out and found some strong ones. It's true that she doesn't care much about ABs who don't meet her standards, though, as she says to Audrey, but she certainly tries with any Claymore she finds, as she showed with Katea.

Single digits could also simply be deployed further away from her territory, Riful has quite the Sense range, but I doubt she would be able to sense any warrior that entered her territory.I'm not really sure her territory is that well defined, or that's it's so easy to avoid her. If I can believe the translation of chapter 69, there were 12 claymores within Tabitha's range when Riful sensed the single digits from farther and homed in on them. (I admit I am wondering if the 12 isn't a translation error). Anyway... 12 Claymores is one fourth of the org's strength, that doesn't seem like any avoidance tactic.

Pre-emptive strike is more like it, they understand that their backs are against the wall so to speak, so they are trying to weaken the # of ABs before they form an army again.Yes, that's going on the offensive, I think we agree. The motives behind the strategy can vary, of course, but premptive or not, a strike isn't a parry.

Claymores are attacking ABs, what they didn't do before Alicia.

Who was a warrior from a previous generation who the Organization had to bribe to rejoin them, somehow I don't think that is a common occurance.Hey, you said you couldn't remember a single one, I brought up a single one. Of course, I could have said Miria replaced both #8 and then her friend #6 Hilda. Priscilla was also supposed to replace the #1 after a time spent replacing Irene. I do think rising through the ranks is a common occurance, reading ES2.

Yes, Clare never had the potential to go beyond that point because she was incapable of it due to her poor compatibility with Teresa's half, but her Partial-awakening changed that.But by awakening, she would have accessed Teresa's potential anyway, wouldn't she? I mean, if she synchronized with an half-awakening, it would make sense that she would have synchronized even better with a full-blown awakening.

khryoleoz

2007-10-22, 11:45

We really do not know if Orsay's character is cynical or not, he could very well have suspected Teresa's rebellious streak for a while. It's a conclusion that can be made in the abscense of suspicious activities from Teresa that would warrant such a call.

Teresa seemed to like bad-mouthing Organization members and saying things she shouldn't, so that adds on to the list of things the Organization would not like.It was inconvenient. That doesn't make her an unacceptable risk.

Yoma being able to scratch her up like that probably do not exist in this world either, considering her abilities.There are factors other than her sheer abilities. Clare is one, though I admit the only one so far, such factor that diminished her effectiveness not on the merits of her abilities.

He did not press the issue, because Teresa was still useful, and at that point, he had no reason to punish her for it, even if she was hiding things. Similiar how the Organization did not kill Galatea for hiding things from them, she was simply just too useful.Teresa was still useful after killing vermin. Taking the wooden stance that they did shows that they held human nature contemptibly by punishing the good for giving the bad their just deserts.

All events also show she liked riling up normal humans, being saracastic and suggesting things about the Organization that the Organization would prefer she did not, and not to mention a somewhat "shady" excuse over how she got herself banged-up when she was sent to execute Rosemary.This shows that she had a funny personality, not that she was "shady".

They probably did not have exacts, but they probably knew she had the capability to defeat an awakened #2 solo.Not just a number 2, but an awakened former number one to be more precise. Sure thing, but all they had to know is how much weaker Rosemary was in comparison.

With Priscilla, it was simply a matter of stating the obvious, she climbed the ranks at an incrediable speed, and displayed a level of raw power and skill that was astounding for her experience level.
They probably compared it to what they saw from Teresa (young) and made a judgement call.One can do all of this without a show of strength, the measurement of which is Yoki release?

Also the reason they would gamble on a successor is because they suspected Teresa's rebellious nature, and wanted a more "secure" investment to take over the lead-spot, or at least be there if Teresa turned.
Having a back-up is always a good thing, as you never know what can happen out in the field.The flaw to this idea is that they bet on one who was far too unstable and therefore less reliable. So no they were not betting on Priscilla because Teresa was becoming a bad apple. They were just shooting for anyone who can be stronger, though your compatibility idea has shed new light to my thinking on how they approach this. They came really close though, I'd say within inches.

Flar

2007-10-22, 12:03

One can do all of this without a show of strength, the measurement of which is Yoki release?Actually, according to what Galatea says to Riful: "The factor by which my strength increases with release is greatest of all claymores", there isn't a fixed ratio between Yoki release and generated strength.

khryoleoz

2007-10-22, 12:17

Actually, according to what Galatea says to Riful: "The factor by which my strength increases with release is greatest of all claymores", there isn't a fixed ratio between Yoki release and generated strength.I understand that. But the idea being posited is that the Org measured Priscilla's abilities to be on the level of a number one even though she hid her yoki, so the org didn't grasp her full potential...this while they knew of Teresa's very will even though she hid from them the extent of it. I just don't find it to be likely. If they didn't grasp Priscilla's potential, and if Teresa kept hidden from them her own, then we'd have to be content at knowing only little more than nothing about them. There's no point in debating who between the two is stronger, though I'll be happy to exit the tiresome debate based on assumptions (including my own POV). We've only seen one kill the other outside a contest of strength. There's nothing conclusive there.

Flar

2007-10-22, 12:58

There's nothing conclusive there.The org certainly didn't have all the data and thus the ranking didn't reflect the Claymore's full power, especially not Teresa or Priscilla.

However, it obviously reflected their efficiency on the job, and that's the most important point. Noone cares about numbers, when you get down to it, but how well the job is done. With this method of evaluation, I would posit, considering Irena's thoughts and the spanking Priscilla gets against Teresa, that the org, Irena included, knows very well Claymore!Priscilla's strength, but totally underestimates Teresa.

khryoleoz

2007-10-22, 13:44

I have that same thought myself, and I'll apply it to another one of those issues that nag me. Others say that Teresa incriminates herself when she expressed her own doubts about whether she'll be able to repel or prevail against Priscilla at a future encounter. This is supposed to be the death blow to any surety that Teresa was superior.

Well, while we could have certainly expected Priscilla to get better later, why couldn't Teresa also be thinking that her own effectiveness will have diminished over time after being in hiding for however long, becoming rusty in battle, and having to watch over a defenseless kid? Besting someone else can happen by being better than your opponent and/or your opponent becoming worse.

DazarGaidin

2007-10-22, 14:33

Also factor in that teresa had no intention of meeting priscilla any time soon, yet alone 5 minutes down the road :P Who knows how many months/years she was thinking ahead when she thought that. We also don't know how 'powered up' she might mean too, i have a feeling teresa never really factors into or achieves something like a 70% power up..she might not even know herself what she is capable of at that level (and before you say of course she does, we have already seen claymores surprise themselves with their power, most notably clare but could any of the 7, not just the semi-awakened ones, have seen themselves as strong as they are now 9 years ago?).

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-22, 14:51

Managed to get some translated info thanks to the guys over at mangahelpers.

Specifically concerning Clare, Teresa, and now Priscilla.

Clare:

Class: Offensive: Pre-Emptive Perception

They knew about her quick-sword ability and her Yoki-sensing ability. They also knew she could control the Quick-sword due to her Yoki synchronization skill.

They noted that despite her calm exterior she often displayed rebellious tendencies. They also note that she has shown warning signs of awakening.

They do however classify her as unsatisfactory as far as the "Ability Inheritance Experiment" is concerned.

------------------------

Teresa:

Class: Offensive: Pre-Emptive Perception, All-rounder

They note that Teresa's "Detailed Aura Detection" is likely the strongest skill a warrior can posses, and that Teresa is probably the only warrior that could actually master the skill due to her all-around extraordinary power.

They make a small mention of Teresa's successful execution involving Rosemary. They also mention her "displaying proper consciousness of her role as the new Number 1."

They mention that Teresa's ability can undoubtedly be called the strongest, in any of the successive generations.

She is noted for performing her missions obediently, but having a condescending attitude that stands out as well.

--------------

Priscilla:

Class: Offensive type, Aura Suppression/ Rapid Growth

Her aura suppression is noted for being suited for covert action, but also extremely useful against those who have pre-emptive yoki-detection skills.

and I'll quote this next part:

"In Priscilla's case, it can also be hypothesized that it is a form of of self-defense instinct to avoid being swung around by her high latent power."

She is noted for being an experiment that surpassed even Teresa in latent power. They also not her strong desire to suppress Yoma.

They note that she was deployed to early, as she had almost no real combat experience and that her dedication caused her to go berserk and eventually awaken.

Her status is listed as missing.

------------

My opinion:

They seemed to know an amazing amount about Clare's abilities, but never counted them as part of her natural ability it seems.

They think highly of Teresa, and praise the "Detailed Aura Detection" as the strongest skill a warrior can posses, which is quite an impressive statement.

As for Priscilla, the Organization seems to have realized that Priscilla has a huge untapped well of power that she was subconsciously hiding, which could explain why her immense power was not apparent until Isley gave AB Priscilla a few kicks in the head.

------------

Sorry for not replying to your guys' replies to me, but this new info is helping me re-adjust my info-meter as we speak. :heh:

khryoleoz

2007-10-22, 15:23

The info puts a lot of what we've been thinking into perspective. We do know many of them based on what we've already seen and had been said by a handful of characters. What I still doubt and that this new info does not shed new light upon is this:

She is noted for being an experiment that surpassed even Teresa in latent power.

How much did they really know of Teresa's own latent power when she herself purposed to hide it from them? Now maybe she didn't hide it well enough so that they knew anyway, but I deny that as a fanboy.

Regardless, this is some interesting stuff and thanks.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-22, 15:28

The info puts a lot of what we've been thinking into perspective. We do know many of them based on what we've already seen and had been said by a handful of characters. What I still doubt and that this new info does not shed new light upon is this:

How much did they really know of Teresa's own latent power when she herself purposed to hide it from them? Now maybe she didn't hide it well enough so that they knew anyway, but I deny that as a fanboy.

Regardless, this is some interesting stuff and thanks.

True enough, she hid her potential, but they apparently did not even know Priscilla's limit because she had been suppressing herself since the beginning.

khryoleoz

2007-10-22, 15:33

Right. How do you measure latent, potential abilities other than seeing the little that is observable and finding it to be at least as good if not better than what something else has shown itself to have that is not in a latent state.

Hmm...I wonder who it is that she'll run into to put that untapped power in full display? And we know that her defensive abilities as an AB is fearsome, healing from what should be fatal wounds immediately.

Tempest35

2007-10-22, 15:50

A scary thought

What if the anime was right? What if Priscilla is indeed not 'fully awakened' :eek:

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-22, 19:19

Thought I would post my new crack-pot theory in this thread.

------------------------

My new hypothesis is that Priscilla's true potential WAS NOT awakened when she did, but IT WAS realized after her fight with Isley.

Note that Priscilla, when Isley first engaged her, was still the AB that killed Noel/Sophia and tore off Irene's arm, but after Isley knocks her around she reverts to a child-like state and suddenly becomes much more powerful.

If she was subconsciously holding back her strength then the trauma Isley gave Priscilla while fighting knocked that subconscious block away and reverted her mind back to its childish state, before she developed the mental block.

Bikerider

2007-10-22, 20:15

Naw. Priscilla is fully awakened. She hasn't reached Super Sayian 4 level yet.

Tempest35

2007-10-22, 20:20

Question would now be: has she switched to 'that' form since then? Or has she been getting gullets on a silver platter from Rigaldo? XD

As for your theory...
...
...
...
*needs roadmap* :heh: I'm kidding.
I'm not sure on the 'power increase' part but the mental part, I can agree with you on. She was still in the 'I want guuuuts~' mode from when she left the scene of her 'crime'. Then Easley knocked some sense into her...or out of her, depending on your take. :p Too bad that we don't have much manga of the new Priscilla...

Ah Priscilla...I love her. She's so cute when she doesn't do her 'justice speeches'. XDD When are we going to see her again in the manga! I want my questions ANSWERED ALREADY!!

khryoleoz

2007-10-22, 20:33

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-22, 20:56

I'm the opposite. I liked her better when she clung to her sense of justice, even though in her naivete she didn't fully grasp the situation in which she unfairly applied that justice to my beloved. Her awakening is a betrayal of her own values, and I fault her for not having the wits to maintain an awareness of that and watch her actions. Even kids know when they're doing bad things and should be held to account for not helping themselves do otherwise.

Oh, and I have no plans on engaging about morality debates here. Been there, done that.

Actually that is not quite true, kids need to be taught what is right and wrong, but considering Priscilla was raised by the Organization.....yeah lets not go there. :uhoh:

Question would now be: has she switched to 'that' form since then? Or has she been getting gullets on a silver platter from Rigaldo? XD

As for your theory...
...
...
...
*needs roadmap* I'm kidding.
I'm not sure on the 'power increase' part but the mental part, I can agree with you on. She was still in the 'I want guuuuts~' mode from when she left the scene of her 'crime'. Then Easley knocked some sense into her...or out of her, depending on your take. Too bad that we don't have much manga of the new Priscilla...

Ah Priscilla...I love her. She's so cute when she doesn't do her 'justice speeches'. XDD When are we going to see her again in the manga! I want my questions ANSWERED ALREADY!!

Well Priscilla clearly displayed a higher level of power after reverting to her child-like mind set. Before then she was clearly stronger then Rigaldo, but was getting knocked-around by Isley. Then with a sudden and impressive display of power, took out half of Isley's body.

I for one think that Priscilla was fine as her "blind-justice" self, naive surely, but she believed she was doing the right thing.

The "eat-guts" Awakened Priscilla was quite seperated from what she did, not even seeming to understand why people were so afraid of her eating.

The "child-like" Priscilla is also very interesting, the mind of a child inside the body of the most powerful being currently in the existance of the Claymoreverse. quite scary really.

Tempest35

2007-10-22, 21:25

I'm thinking that Easley's attack that damaged Priscilla so much was a secondary shock to her system and psyche if you will, the first being the actual act of Awakening. The first shock blew out 'Justice mentality' Priscilla out the window and was replaced by 'Awakened' Priscilla. Easley's attack blew the final barriers that were in place over her body and her full EX power came gushing out, not only taking Easley down to half life but also knocking 'Awakened Priscilla' for a loop, leaving only the parts of Priscilla's mind that were not touched by the words 'Claymore', 'Youma', and 'Awakened Beings'. Thus you have 'Child Priscilla' - wondering why was she hurt and were were her parents? Oh yeah, and why can she eat only guts... :heh:

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-22, 22:10

NoSanninWa

2007-10-22, 22:48

Once upon a time there was actual discussion about the topic. I'll admit that I thought it was a lame topic, but I consented to its popularity by moving it from the manga discussion so folks could actually discuss the manga there. It since gone off-topic despite the occasional interruption by topicality.

Now the thread has become yet another generic discussion of power level, so I'm going to close it for terminal off-topic-ness. Bye.

Edit: I've been persuaded (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1215548#post1215548) to reopen this thread. Please stay on track.

DazarGaidin

2007-10-23, 07:14

Was an official stats page given for any of the newer powers that are on the scene like Alicia/Beth?

Flar

2007-10-23, 08:04

Was an official stats page given for any of the newer powers that are on the scene like Alicia/Beth?

Alicia and Beth: No.1 and No.2 (180 CM tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A+
Strength: A+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: E

Obviously, this is not in abyssal mode.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-23, 09:08

Was an official stats page given for any of the newer powers that are on the scene like Alicia/Beth?

It is on the first post of this page, I ordered them by rank and generation.

As stated above, this is not counting in their special abilities.

Edit: I updated the OP to include Offensive/Defensive types, and any other Class: Info we have.

khryoleoz

2007-10-23, 10:31

So far, Teresa shows that she has the best GPA. Nevertheless, her best subject is not as good as Galatea.
Teresa and Galatea's yoki sensing abilities are vastly different. Galatea adds to her yoki perception the ability to manipulate it, but we've seen it as something that can be overcome. Teresa's is the detection of yoki to its minute detail, hence the S ranking there. Galatea's trick is useless against mentally focused Claymores/ABs/Yoma.

Flora probably cannot catch up with Irene, but I suspect it's the lack of experience and training.No. The difference is the amplification by yoki, which is the very technique of Quicksword. Forget Flora and Clare's duel where it was determined windcutter was superior. Clare was not a good handler of Quicksword. Irene however was its master. We've only seen two people defeat her Quicksword, and they did so because they were on a league far beyond hers.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-23, 11:00

Teresa's ability has been named as the strongest a warrior can posses, although that can come into doubt now with Miata's abilities. So I would assume her ability is considered superior to Galatea's more limited Yoki-Manipulation technique.

In the Duel of Clare and Flora, they determined that although Clare's quicksword was faster, it was not as powerful or accurate. I get the feeling this is more Clare's fault then the superiority of the Windcutter.

The Quick-Sword only truly fails in the fact it relies so much on Yoki, while the Windcutter does not. Which is the reason Clare has adopted the Windcutter.

Overall the techniques are immensely similiar, just a different application.

I will be listing the techniques of the Claymore's in their stats as well now, over time >.<

Edit: Listed some of them in the OP, but I don't know the official names for several of the techniques yet.

Idunlikeloli

2007-10-23, 11:03

I still think Teresa is stronger than Alicia, Yoki-wise though.
P.S Wonder how would awakened teresa fare against lich king Arthas.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-23, 11:05

I still think Teresa is stronger than Alicia, Yoki-wise though.
P.S Wonder how would awakened teresa fare against lich king Arthas.

It is possible no doubt, but S catagory is likely reasonably broad, so she could well be within Teresa's bracket, yet still inferior.

p.s. I think she would kick his arse.

Flar

2007-10-23, 13:48

The Quick-Sword only truly fails in the fact it relies so much on Yoki, while the Windcutter does not. Which is the reason Clare has adopted the Windcutter.It truly fails in this for our soon to awaken Claymores. I mean, each time one of the fabulous four half-awaken, she gets closer to awakened potential*, right? So, in truth, the power of Quicksword, relatively speaking, decreases as the power of the Claymore increases, whereas the power of windcutter is increased by the same factor.

Ultimately, we could get a completely awakened Clare, whose every swing would be a quicksword slash, but who could yet still increase the speed and power of these swings by using iai -windcutter-.

Anyway, why oppose them, when they can be combined? What about a Quick-cutter? (a windcutter performed with a yoki saturated arm)

* Though, I reread what Rubul (Louvres?) said about potential, and it was pretty clear he was talking about Priscilla specifically, suggesting that it may not be what happens with every awakening.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-23, 14:04

It truly fails in this for our soon to awaken Claymores. I mean, each time one of the fabulous four half-awaken, she gets closer to awakened potential*, right? So, in truth, the power of Quicksword, relatively speaking, decreases as the power of the Claymore increases, whereas the power of windcutter is increased by the same factor.

Ultimately, we could get a completely awakened Clare, whose every swing would be a quicksword slash, but who could yet still increase the speed and power of these swings by using iai -windcutter-.

Anyway, why oppose them, when they can be combined? What about a Quick-cutter? (a windcutter performed with a yoki saturated arm)

* Though, I reread what Rubul (Louvres?) said about potential, and it was pretty clear he was talking about Priscilla specifically, suggesting that it may not be what happens with every awakening.

Well I always saw the Quick-Sword as something that throws a large portion of your Yoki into a single part of your body. So it's power would still be preportionate to you overall power, just like the Windcutter.

I assume the Windcutter is still the Windcutter with Yoki infused in it.

You do bring up a very interesting point about Rubel's wording over Priscilla's awakening, you could be on to something.

stringer13

2007-10-23, 17:02

Teresa was bleeding from the head because of her fight with Rosemary, and afterwards Teresa destroyed her with her almighty haxxorness, so she was the clear winner, yes, but she was not uninjured.

And if I were the Organization I would panic too, they very likely knew Teresa's strength, and that would make the situation potentially worse then any of those that you mentioned, because if Teresa awakened she would be more powerful then any of the forementioned threats.

It is also mentioned that Priscilla was ideal for fighting Teresa because Teresa could not detect her Yoki, but we all know that plan went straight to hell when Priscilla gave herself away and they all released Yoki in hopes of overwhelming her (and thus screwing themselves even more.)

I noticed that myself, seems quite likely that you are correct and she was quite a great deal stronger then we were led to believe by her rank, or all Awakenings are not equal.

Not true. Orsay said 'No problem. Just dispatch nimbers 2-5' thinking that they could kill her.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-23, 20:03

Not true. Orsay said 'No problem. Just dispatch nimbers 2-5' thinking that they could kill her.

Well he would have been right, if Priscilla did not screw up the entire game plan of hitting Teresa when she was distracted by the other 3.

khryoleoz

2007-10-23, 21:57

Nope. Teresa might be cut, but she would have whooped their asses so badly regardless.

Regarding Windcutter, it seems to be a batoujutsu style. The concept behind its use doesn't involve yoki amplification. It's power is in the fact that it is used by someone who is powered by yoki. Quicksword is amplified by yoki, so you can expect that however the strength of the Windcutter may be depedent upon the strength of its user, the Quicksword comparatively is still stronger by the same principle.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-23, 22:40

Nope. Teresa might be cut, but she would have whooped their asses so badly regardless.

Still not sure how people are so certain that Teresa could have avoided a serious or potentially fatal blow from an attack she could not see coming.

Regarding Windcutter, it seems to be a batoujutsu style. The concept behind its use doesn't involve yoki amplification. It's power is in the fact that it is used by someone who is powered by yoki. Quicksword is amplified by yoki, so you can expect that however the strength of the Windcutter may be depedent upon the strength of its user, the Quicksword comparatively is still stronger by the same principle.

Batoujutsu requires a sheath >.< , but I understand it is grounded in the same principle.

I think Windcutter is a more flexible, but less powerful, version of the Quick-Sword. The Windcutter is clearly superior for what the 7 ghosts are doing now though.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 01:00

Still not sure how people are so certain that Teresa could have avoided (start assumption) a serious or potentially fatal blow (End assumption) from an attack she could not see coming.

There now you know why we think that :heh:

Like the bandits hand that got cut off. Just because she didn't sense it at first doesn't mean she can't avoid it enough so it wouldn't be fatal. Judging from how easily she whooped 2-5 I wouldn't think an attack like that can kill Teresa. Simple as that. (All assumptions of course) I don't think when ppl are assumming they can be certain. At least not me. It's just a guess that's all. If only Teresa said "You could of killed me" then Ill believe she had no chance.

Taylor_Maclaurin

2007-10-24, 01:54

Still not sure how people are so certain that Teresa could have avoided a serious or potentially fatal blow from an attack she could not see coming.
(...)
I think that Priscilla's fair and square super justice behaviour saved her life. Sudden full power attack has one disadvantage - if it fails it can be fatal for the user. Even if she cut her, Teresa would propably killed her instantly, instead she was playing with her and spared her life. Teresa was able to react instantly, even quick-sword was no match for her. Her speed was even better than Irene's fulyl awakened arm (she repelled EVERY attack of her, if she didn't have speed and reflex youki sensing would only tell her that she would die in 10^(-10) s).

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 02:13

There now you know why we think that :heh:

Like the bandits hand that got cut off. Just because she didn't sense it at first doesn't mean she can't avoid it enough so it wouldn't be fatal. Judging from how easily she whooped 2-5 I wouldn't think an attack like that can kill Teresa. Simple as that. (All assumptions of course) I don't think when ppl are assumming they can be certain. At least not me. It's just a guess that's all. If only Teresa said "You could of killed me" then Ill believe she had no chance.

Well, although there's a world of difference between the amount of hurt that bandits and Priscilla of all people can inflict, I get what you're saying. We do find that throughout the battle with Priscilla, Teresa had been conserving herself, putting out only enough to repel attacks. She could have easily eliminated her if she decided to be serious from the beginning. Yet, in conservation mode Teresa was still able to react faster than the noob, and did so by quite a significant margin. That's why she ultimately didn't need the sensing trick. I derive my surety from that observation...well, okay, it's because I'm a fanboy that I will turn everything around in Teresa's favor so long as it is reasonably defensible. Even if Priscilla stuck to the original plan, it was not as if her total yoki supression was going to be the ultimate solution. Teresa just outclassed her in every other area. We can talk about Priscilla's latent potential, but the truth also is that it was still in that potential state at that time.

This would have been a better alternative. While Teresa moved in to kill Priscilla, Irene should have attacked Teresa instead of deflecting or blocking Teresa's blow in order to protect the noob. Though I like Irene for her sense of honor flawed by her human frailty, she really does make a lot of bad calls every now and then.

I don't see why. Irene had twice the speed and power Clare has when using Quicksword, it's true, but she is several orders of magnitude more powerful than Flora too. If she had used Windcutter, it is very possible its efficiency would have been doubled in comparison.

Not to mention, Clare swapped from Quicksword to Yoki-less Windcutter without significant loss of power. Which actually speaks in favor of the windcutter since Full power Flora did use yoki.Who can say there was no significant loss of power? So far she has only used Windcutter against someone whose speed was also diminished by not amplifying it with yoki. It could be that a lesser technique was sufficient to repel a lesser attack.

as a reminder:

"Flash-Sword" Irene: No.3 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: A+
Sense: B
Leadership: A

Flora: No.8 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: B
Agility: A
Strength: C
Mental: B
Sense: C
Leadership: B

OK. Then we'll use another comparison to put things into perspective.

Clare: No.47 (170 CM Tall)

Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: D
Sensing: C+
Leadership: E

Class: Offensive Type, Pre-Emptive Perception

Technique: Flash-Sword

You can say she's had one semi-awakening experience that extended her limits, the arm of a former number 2, and the yoma material of a deceased number 1. But all of these things have given Clare her own problems. By being a 1/4 hybrid, Clare's Yoki is the poorest. For what seems to be mental compatibility issues, her Quicksword was inevitably inferior. And we don't know to what extent her abilities were enhanced by her first awakening, but it didn't seem to have been good enough to take on Flora w/out the use of Quicksword. Yet, someone who is ranked as poorly as Clare in the power department managed to somewhat equal Flora with the Quicksword. What I don't see is how given we have the same user using either technique, one that is amplified by a Claymore's most powerful essense, yoki, can only manage to be equal if not inferior to a technique that is not amplified by that powerful essense.

Flar

2007-10-24, 03:09

You can say she's had one semi-awakening experience that extended her limits, the arm of a former number 2, and the yoma material of a deceased number 1. But all of these things have given Clare her own problems.That is irrelevant, all these things still did give Clare a power boost, and you cannot wave that away as easily.

If talking about the stats, they are those of chapter 1 Clare.

Irene's arm not only upped her global strength and speed, as Ophelia commented later, but brought her Quicksword from one tenth of Irena's power to one half.
Half awakening, as witnessed by Priscilla in chapter 69, ultimately brought Clare's Yoki at Miria's level or more. "So much stronger than the other lights". She was obviously near single-digit level by the time of Pieta.
Experience and yoki-reading, as we saw in the Pieta skirmish, makes her more dangerous, more difficult to kill, and would be reflected in her stats too.

What I don't see is how given we have the same user using either technique, one that is amplified by a Claymore's most powerful essense, yoki, can only manage to be equal if not inferior to a technique that is not amplified by that powerful essense.Ask the mangaka, since it's what happens. My theory is that Claymores bodies are infused with Yoki anyway, so Windcuter still uses it, in a different way, it just needs more training to harness the latent Yoki of the body, so to speak. An anyway, Flora did use yoki in her duel against Clare, veins in her arm popped out the exact same way they do on Irene's arm.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 08:47

There now you know why we think that :heh:

Like the bandits hand that got cut off. Just because she didn't sense it at first doesn't mean she can't avoid it enough so it wouldn't be fatal.

Bad example, as the bandit could have as equally easy lost his head instead, he had no possible way of avoiding it. That is the nature of a sneak attack.

Judging from how easily she whooped 2-5 I wouldn't think an attack like that can kill Teresa. Simple as that. (All assumptions of course) I don't think when ppl are assumming they can be certain. At least not me. It's just a guess that's all. If only Teresa said "You could of killed me" then Ill believe she had no chance.

Teresa's overall strength is not what is in question, unless she suddenly developed Miata's sixth sense, it is unlikely that she would have been able to avoid, let alone notice, Priscilla's sneak attack, and when you cannot avoid a attack it generally causes serious damage. (Loss of important body parts, sword through the gut.)

I think that Priscilla's fair and square super justice behaviour saved her life. Sudden full power attack has one disadvantage - if it fails it can be fatal for the user. Even if she cut her, Teresa would propably killed her instantly, instead she was playing with her and spared her life. Teresa was able to react instantly, even quick-sword was no match for her. Her speed was even better than Irene's fulyl awakened arm (she repelled EVERY attack of her, if she didn't have speed and reflex youki sensing would only tell her that she would die in 10^(-10) s).

But the odds of it failing are very small in that situation, Teresa was completely distracted by the other 3, and was busy holding onto Clare from their jump, the attack had almost no direct risk to Priscilla, if she failed to cause serious injury she could have simply taken advantage of the suprise and attacked again (like she did while awakening) or backed off.

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 08:57

That is irrelevant, all these things still did give Clare a power boost, and you cannot wave that away as easily.

If talking about the stats, they are those of chapter 1 Clare.

Irene's arm not only upped her global strength and speed, as Ophelia commented later, but brought her Quicksword from one tenth of Irena's power to one half.
Half awakening, as witnessed by Priscilla in chapter 69, ultimately brought Clare's Yoki at Miria's level or more. "So much stronger than the other lights". She was obviously near single-digit level by the time of Pieta.
Experience and yoki-reading, as we saw in the Pieta skirmish, makes her more dangerous, more difficult to kill, and would be reflected in her stats too.

Ask the mangaka, since it's what happens. My theory is that Claymores bodies are infused with Yoki anyway, so Windcuter still uses it, in a different way, it just needs more training to harness the latent Yoki of the body, so to speak. An anyway, Flora did use yoki in her duel against Clare, veins in her arm popped out the exact same way they do on Irene's arm.
I don't think it's irrelevant. So far, we've seen Clare have a lot of latent abilities herself. But more than anybody she's had the hardest time releasing them, and most recently did so only under the most dire of circumstances. So her power boost might be present but it's in a latent, potential state that she had no reliable way of accessing. Still, Windcutter is not yoki infused, which is why Clare switched to it given their need to supress yoki. But that's the difference. You really can't expect a sword style that isn't boosted by power to have more power than one boosted by power.

Flar

2007-10-24, 09:37

You really can't expect a sword style that isn't boosted by power to have more power than one boosted by power.I can, especially when Quicksword isn't really a technique. It's only randomly slashing everything in range with an inhumanly powered arm.

That's like saying I cannot expect a frail, old, kung-fu master to win over a 3 meters muscular thug with no technique, in a shonen manga. I say the superiority of technique over raw, incontrollable power has been proved often enough.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 09:48

Well, although there's a world of difference between the amount of hurt that bandits and Priscilla of all people can inflict, I get what you're saying. We do find that throughout the battle with Priscilla, Teresa had been conserving herself, putting out only enough to repel attacks. She could have easily eliminated her if she decided to be serious from the beginning. Yet, in conservation mode Teresa was still able to react faster than the noob, and did so by quite a significant margin. That's why she ultimately didn't need the sensing trick. I derive my surety from that observation...well, okay, it's because I'm a fanboy that I will turn everything around in Teresa's favor so long as it is reasonably defensible. Even if Priscilla stuck to the original plan, it was not as if her total yoki supression was going to be the ultimate solution. Teresa just outclassed her in every other area. We can talk about Priscilla's latent potential, but the truth also is that it was still in that potential state at that time.

Yeah Im aware of the difference between the bandits and prissy but there wasnt much other sneak attacks I can refer to in Claymore. I would of had to bring in another anime maybe DRAGONBALL Z or something. My point was really just because it's a sneak attack from the rear doesn't mean someone is doomed. Especially if its the most powerful Claymore.

Prissy's potential is just that. Potential. It doesnt get realized in less then a hour :uhoh:

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 10:22

I can, especially when Quicksword isn't really a technique. It's only randomly slashing everything in range with an inhumanly powered arm.

That's like saying I cannot expect a frail, old, kung-fu master to win over a 3 meters muscular thug with no technique, in a shonen manga. I say the superiority of technique over raw, incontrollable power has been proved often enough.

Both are techniques, but I suppose a distinction is in order. Quicksword may not be a specific sword technique, but more of a yoki technique. It can be applied to various other aspects, but it is the Quicksword in a sword fighting application. Windcutter IS a specific sword technique, but it is one that doesn't make use of yoki release to perform. Check this out. If one were to use the Windcutter move and boost that movement with yoki, then by definition that too would be called Quicksword. Quicksword > Windcutter.

I thought we've been comparing which technique would be more effective by a factor of power here (we already know Quicksword is faster). An old Yip Man might be able to beat Fedor Emilianenko, but there is no question that he will have to do so on aspects other than that of power.

A superior technique is more reliable and in that sense better than raw uncontrollable power. But that you bring this up shows that you're stuck on Quicksword being inferior based on what you've seen of it from Clare. Clare should stick to Windcutter from now on because she tarnishes the esteemed reputation of Quicksword by not being suited for it in the first place.

Flar

2007-10-24, 11:25

Check this out. If one were to use the Windcutter move and boost that movement with yoki, then by definition that too would be called Quicksword. Quicksword > Windcutter.Absolutely not. With that logic, you would call Helen rubber slashes Quicksword, too. It's not because you raise the amount of Yoki in your arm that the technique becomes Quicksword. Quicksword is, very specifically, making your arm go berserk (as in, uncontrollable) and it rules out any control such as un/resheathing the Claymore.

Once again, It's no technique, it's just rampaging with brute force. Brute force used in conjunction of a sword technique isn't called brute force anymore, it's just called a stronger version of that sword technique.

I thought we've been comparing which technique would be more effective by a factor of power here (we already know Quicksword is faster). An old Yip Man might be able to beat Fedor Emilianenko, but there is no question that he will have to do so on aspects other than that of power.Yeah, I though we were talking about superiority. I don't really care about theoretical data, the important thing is usefulness, lethality on the battlefield.

But anyway, one of my arguments is that techniques per se are not superior or inferior, they just depend on the person using them, that is why Irene's Quicksword can be stronger than Flora's windcutter, because Irene is that much stronger in raw stats anyway.

However, extrapolating, that leads to the conclusion Quicksword is actually inferior for Clare, since it is basically awakening of a limb, and Clare is going to awaken anyway, you know it. Awakening alone is inferior to Awakening plus technique, in my book.

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 11:51

Absolutely not. With that logic, you would call Helen rubber slashes Quicksword, too. It's not because you raise the amount of Yoki in your arm that the technique becomes Quicksword. Quicksword is, very specifically, making your arm go berserk (as in, uncontrollable) and it rules out any control such as un/resheathing the Claymore.

Once again, It's no technique, it's just rampaging with brute force. Brute force used in conjunction of a sword technique isn't called brute force anymore, it's just called a stronger version of that sword technique.
Your recollection of the nature of Quicksword is foggy. Quicksword involves the awakening of the sword arm to launch sword attacks. And according to Irene, it does go berserk so one uses strong mental concentration to bring it under control. Under such forceful control, Irene renders the move as if she's never even unsheathed her sword, so a Quicksword-enabled Windcutter is not impossible and in that relationship neither are they mutually exclusive. That Quicksword becomes uncontrollable is a problem with Clare because of her own mental instability or incompatibility. If Clare was as cool headed as Irene, she'd be every bit as accurate, precise and powerful in her control of it. So I wasn't as precise in my language. My bad. If one were to use Windcutter by way of a forcefully-controlled awakening arm, then that by definition is Quicksword too. So the Helen thing is a meaningless example.

Yeah, I though we were talking about superiority. I don't really care about theoretical data, the important thing is usefulness, lethality on the battlefield
But anyway, one of my arguments is that techniques per se are not superior or inferior, they just depend on the person using them, that is why Irene's Quicksword can be stronger than Flora's windcutter, because Irene is that much stronger in raw stats anyway.

However, extrapolating, that leads to the conclusion Quicksword is actually inferior for Clare, since it is basically awakening of a limb, and Clare is going to awaken anyway, you know it. Awakening alone is inferior to Awakening plus technique, in my book.
I'm in agreement with you there. But the subject of superiority is not just mere usefulness and lethality. It is a quality of usefulness and lethality that is "more" and "better". With all other things being equal, Quicksword is superior to Windcutter, which should be obvious except to Flora fanboys.

Siva

2007-10-24, 13:57

Wow, it seems like a big deal here.
I will use my theory to explain QS/FS and WC.

QuickSword/FlashSword:
-focuses ur yoki into ur arm and making your arm go berserk.
-this skill doesnt make the user quickly become an AwakenOne instead it would make your arm awaken so it doesnt have any effect to the other part of your body in the other word the user can reverse that arm back to normal just like Beth did the same to reverse Alicia back.
-QS/FS relies more on your controlling yoki into one arm.
-without berserk your arm = no QS/FS.

WindCutter:
-as you can see when Flora use WC fight against that AwakenOne it seem that AO able to control her WC so in the other word Flora's WC still use Yoki to perform it.
-it is kind of a weak version of QS/FS but it is completely not the same.
-WC relies more on your controlling physical body/arm and use yoki to boost its power. which is mean you can use WC without release your yoki but it wont be as good as when you combine it with your yoki. In the other word Flora's WC wasn't reach its ture powerful or potential yet or you can say that is her limit. How?

Explain: If you notice what deneve said that Clare is the one who has had the hardest time in those 7 years, and what i understand is Clare had been practicing her WC for 7 seven years by starting from being a noob and become a pro and practice it without release her yoki. Until now i think Clare's WC which doesnt use yoki is equal or even surpass Flora's WC which is the one that use yoki.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 14:11

WindCutter:
-as you can see when Flora use WC fight against that AwakenOne it seem that AO able to control her WC so in the other word Flora's WC still use Yoki to perform

It wasnt just Floras wc it controlled. That AB controlled everything. Only reason Clare was able to break out of it was because Irene's arm was at a much higher level. Thats what I thought at least.

Tempest35

2007-10-24, 14:24

It wasnt just Floras wc it controlled. That AB controlled everything. Only reason Clare was able to break out of it was because Irene's arm was at a much higher level. Thats what I thought at least.

If I may, let's look at that scene this way:

The AB put down a [Lv 7] suppression field high enough to catch all four warriors including #8 Flora and force them down while manipulating a lower level as well. With Clare having the arm of a powerful #2 warrior, she was able to break the [Lv 7] field by using a technique that was much higher in Youki usage [Lv 9]than the suppression field could contain, thus she was able to move that arm only while performing the Quicksword technique.

Granted, this AB was probably only a Rank 20-something when he was alive, given his performance.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 14:29

Thanks for putting what I said into MMorpg terms. Now all the WoW geeks will be able to get this.

Tempest35

2007-10-24, 14:33

:heh:
...so what does that make me, who doesn't even play MMorpgs...

Anh_Minh

2007-10-24, 14:46

Both are techniques, but I suppose a distinction is in order. Quicksword may not be a specific sword technique, but more of a yoki technique.
Agreed.

It can be applied to various other aspects, but it is the Quicksword in a sword fighting application. Windcutter IS a specific sword technique, but it is one that doesn't make use of yoki release to perform. Check this out. If one were to use the Windcutter move and boost that movement with yoki, then by definition that too would be called Quicksword. Quicksword > Windcutter.
No. For one thing, what Quicksword gains in speed, it loses in precision. That makes using it in conjunction with Windcutter, which relies of precise movements to get the very most out of your arm, difficult.

For another, while it unnecessary, it's possible to boost your arm with yoki while performing the windcutter. Flora did it in her duel. But it's still Windcutter, not Quicksword.

I'd say that if Clare ever managed to smoothly combine Quicksword and Windcutter, she'd get a technique that's more powerful than either. But no indication so far she's done so. Indeed, she couldn't even train her Quicksword during 7 years, though she did get used to Irene's arm.

I thought we've been comparing which technique would be more effective by a factor of power here (we already know Quicksword is faster). An old Yip Man might be able to beat Fedor Emilianenko, but there is no question that he will have to do so on aspects other than that of power.

A superior technique is more reliable and in that sense better than raw uncontrollable power. But that you bring this up shows that you're stuck on Quicksword being inferior based on what you've seen of it from Clare. Clare should stick to Windcutter from now on because she tarnishes the esteemed reputation of Quicksword by not being suited for it in the first place.

Give her a break. She hasn't had much time to polish it.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 14:53

Yeah Im aware of the difference between the bandits and prissy but there wasnt much other sneak attacks I can refer to in Claymore. I would of had to bring in another anime maybe DRAGONBALL Z or something. My point was really just because it's a sneak attack from the rear doesn't mean someone is doomed. Especially if its the most powerful Claymore.

DBZ would be a bad example, because freeza was cut in half by an attack he did not see coming as well, and Cell was almost killed by a suprise attack from Goku.

The point is you can't avoid a sneak attack, because IT IS a sneak attack, you are not aware of it and it a stealth manuever which is ment to give a large advantage in battle, but Priscilla (in her oh-so-infinite wisdom) blew her advantage and chose to fight head on.

Prissy's potential is just that. Potential. It doesnt get realized in less then a hour :uhoh:

Priscilla's potential has nothing to do with this >.< It could have well been Raphaela doing the sneak attack, and the outcome would be similiar.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 14:59

:heh:
...so what does that make me, who doesn't even play MMorpgs...

It means you would make a great black mage. Now go out and buy Final Fantasy 11 and start lvling black mage.

Here's your bible

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/3042/elementalzj9.jpg

Fenrir - That potential was meant more for Khryleozlolz
As far as being able to avoid a sneak attack. I believe its possible and others as well. If you don't believe it can be done then I have nothing else to say :twitch: Please don't make me watch dragonball to find a scene where a sneak attack didnt work :( Or else this might be turned into a thread I was asking for that got rejected.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 15:03

Fenrir - That potential was meant more for Khryleozlolz
As far as avoiding being able to avoid a sneak attack. I believe its possible and others as well. If you don't believe it can be done then I have nothing else to say :twitch: Please don't make me watch dragonball to find a scene where a sneak attack didnt work :(

Sneak attacks are avoided when detected, my point is simply that Teresa did not detect Priscilla at all, thus would have not been able to avoid the attack.

If you want a DBZ example of where a sneak attack did not work, it was generally because in DBZ weak attacks bounce off stronger opponents, which does not happen in Claymore unless your an AB.

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 15:04

No. For one thing, what Quicksword gains in speed, it loses in precision. That makes using it in conjunction with Windcutter, which relies of precise movements to get the very most out of your arm, difficult.Difficult but not impossible. You can't even see Irene draw her sword. Yes, the precision is lost by the very fact that awakening a limb lends towards berserker movements. But Quicksword isn't just defined by the awakening of only the sword arm, but the extreme "moster" caliber concentration that must be employed to bring what otherwise would be berserker movements under control. This control is where Clare was severely lacking, and to the degree that she lacked this her potential for Quicksword was affected.

For another, while it unnecessary, it's possible to boost your arm with yoki while performing the windcutter. Flora did it in her duel. But it's still Windcutter, not Quicksword.I agree. That's why I'm forced to clarify that there's a difference between Flora's normal yoki boost and Irene or Clare's concentrated awakening of a single limb.

I'd say that if Clare ever managed to smoothly combine Quicksword and Windcutter, she'd get a technique that's more powerful than either. But no indication so far she's done so. Indeed, she couldn't even train her Quicksword during 7 years, though she did get used to Irene's arm.

Give her a break. She hasn't had much time to polish it.
Alright. I'll give it to her. Clare does deserve a break for all she has been through, and I do hope to see her polish my favorite Claymore move.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 15:05

Teresa didn't detect her standing there. How do you know she wouldn't be able to detect it when prissy is in swinging motion or making the move? Last minute detection? To avoid fatal blow?

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 15:10

Right. Teresa's reflexes and perception were still better than Priscilla's at that point, so yoki supression or not she'd be able to react sufficiently.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 15:11

Teresa didn't detect her standing there. How do you know she wouldn't be able to detect it when prissy is in swinging motion or making the move? Last minute detection? To avoid fatal blow?

Because how would she? It is like saying I could avoid being hit from behind when someone snuck up on me and clubbed me over the head. The overall point is simply that despite Teresa's superior skill and perception, she did not know Priscilla was there, thus could not guard against an attack that she did not know was coming.

---------

As for the Quick-Sword vs Windcutter debate, here are my feelings on it.

Overall Clare's Quick-Sword was equal to Flora's Windcutter, Flora having the advantage in power and accuracy, while Clare had the advantage in Speed.

If Irene had learned the Windcutter it would be slower then her Quick-Sword, but still have more power and accuracy.

So the respective strengths are still their, but the Windcutter also has the advantage of being Yoki-less, which is immensely important to Clare and the others right now.

The Windcutter simply sacrificed pure-speed for its other benefits, as the Quick-Sword requires you to throw a large amount of Yoki into one limb and concentrate on controlling it, which is something Irene was very good at.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 15:15

Because how would she? It is like saying I could avoid being hit from behind when someone snuck up on me and clubbed me over the head.

Well thats because Fenrir here's your stats

Fenrir_valindri
type: offensive
(compared to a claymore)
Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: A
Sense: A
Leadership: u/a

as you can see you would probably got clubbed in the head.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 15:17

Well thats because Fenrir here's your stats

Fenrir_valindri
type: offensive
(compared to a claymore)
Yoki: E
Agility: E
Strength: E
Mental: A
Sense: A
Leadership: u/a

as you can see you would probably got clubbed in the head.

Lol glad you think so highly of me, but i am refering to a normal human sneaking up on a fellow normal human clubbing sneak attacking, and thus a Claymore sneaking up on a Claymore sneak attacking should have a similiar result because, as far as we know, Teresa does not have Miata's sixth sense.

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 15:23

Because how would she? It is like saying I could avoid being hit from behind when someone snuck up on me and clubbed me over the head. The overall point is simply that despite Teresa's superior skill and perception, she did not know Priscilla was there, thus could not guard against an attack that she did not know was coming.
What are you talking about? She perceived she was there without Priscilla having to announce her presence. So it's not as if she couldn't sense her entirely.

As for the Quick-Sword vs Windcutter debate, here are my feelings on it.

If Irene had learned the Windcutter it would be slower then her Quick-Sword, but still have more power and accuracy.
I can't be so quick to accept this when the issue with regard to accuracy and precision and power is the degree of fine control. Yes, I can accept that a berseker power is harder to put under fine precise control, but it's not impossible as Irene shows. So provided that the control obstacle can be overcome, there's no way that Quicksword can't be just as precise but even more powerful by being faster.

So the respective strengths are still their, but the Windcutter also has the advantage of being Yoki-less, which is immensely important to Clare and the others right now.I agree. Either technique will be prefered over the other depending on the circumstance.

The Windcutter simply sacrificed pure-speed for its other benefits, as the Quick-Sword requires you to throw a large amount of Yoki into one limb and concentrate on controlling it, which is something Irene was very good at.
Right. Now I'm lost. Where did we differ? :)

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 15:26

Well find me a human with similar stats/abilities as Teresa :( I don't think you can use normal human comparisons imo. Anyways it's going to go in circles. *clubs Fenrir* ok over.

Anh_Minh

2007-10-24, 15:31

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 15:36

Right on anh. Plus the sword swinging motion. I dont really think Teresa needs miatas 6th sense in order to be able to avoid it or make it a non fatal blow. I mean Teresa's perception is already high. If you look at the manga you can also tell that Prissy wasnt even that close to Teresa when she landed.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 15:39

Well find me a human with similar stats/abilities as Teresa :( I don't think you can use normal human comparisons imo. Anyways it's going to go in circles. *clubs Fenrir* ok over.

That does not work quite as well when I see it coming. :P

Priscilla is not a normal human either, and as she showed, she could match blades with Teresa for a little while before Teresa could adjust to the pace of fighting an opponent who she cannot use her awesome Yoki-Detection on.

-----------------

What are you talking about? She perceived she was there without Priscilla having to announce her presence. So it's not as if she couldn't sense her entirely.

Yeah, when Priscilla simply walked up, with her armored boots no less, right behind Teresa, well within striking distance.

As proven by Teresa's death, she does not have immaculate reaction time.

and I quote Teresa;

"There was another one? But I did not sense her aura at all!"

This is quite the display of shock from someone who "could have seen it coming" when she clearly states she did not.

------------------

I can't be so quick to accept this when the issue with regard to accuracy and precision and power is the degree of fine control. Yes, I can accept that a berseker power is harder to put under fine precise control, but it's not impossible as Irene shows. So provided that the control obstacle can be overcome, there's no way that Quicksword can't be just as precise but even more powerful by being faster.

The problem here is the nature of the Quick-Sword requires extra effort to control it, while the Windcutter allows that control to be natural, so the higher precision is naturally a trait of the Windcutter, and since the Quick-Sword focuses on speed more then striking power, then the Windcutter comes out ahead in this department as well.

Right. Now I'm lost. Where did we differ?

We don't really, I was just stating my opinion.

Edit: To Anh_Minh;

Come on now, vibrations in the ground, her BREATHING?!

Last I checked Teresa had just avoided 3 high ranked Claymores trying to kill her and jumped into the streets of a town, breaking through a glass window, to avoid them, and you guys expect her to notice that?

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 15:39

Well find me a human with similar stats/abilities as Teresa :( I don't think you can use normal human comparisons imo. Anyways it's going to go in circles. *clubs Fenrir* ok over.

I think this one makes for a good candidate.

http://sonryu.homestead.com/files/berserk01_guts_1024_.jpg

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 15:44

I think this one makes for a good candidate.

http://sonryu.homestead.com/files/berserk01_guts_1024_.jpg

Oh hell no. He would of gotten owned like Raki.

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 15:47

Oh hell no. He would of gotten owned like Raki.Grrr...you're gonna make me hate you.

Yeah, when Priscilla simply walked up, with her armored boots no less, right behind Teresa, well within striking distance.
Then that means that Priscilla will be making noise as she's moving towards Teresa. Teresa can at least hear last I remember.

As proven by Teresa's death, she does not have immaculate reaction timeDoesn't need to be immaculate, just sufficient. Priscilla's sneak attack wouldn't be immaculate either.

and I quote Teresa;

"There was another one? But I did not sense her aura at all!"That's right. She says her aura, as she is accustomed to detecting Claymores by their yoki. Her physical presence is revealed by other things that can be detected by even normal senses.

This is quite the display of shock from someone who "could have seen it coming" when she clearly states she did not.I'd be shocked too if I were a good yoki reader and came across one who I couldn't read at all. But that's not enough for me to accept that she couldn't see, smell or hear her coming.

The problem here is the nature of the Quick-Sword requires extra effort to control it, while the Windcutter allows that control to be natural, so the higher precision is naturally a trait of the Windcutter, and since the Quick-Sword focuses on speed more then striking power, then the Windcutter comes out ahead in this department as well.Ah. Now I see. Yes, Windcutter's advantage is precision by the very nature of Quicksword requiring so much more to control it. But I still give the power to Quicksword.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 15:55

Then that means that Priscilla will be making noise as she's moving towards Teresa. Teresa can at least hear last I remember.

Last I checked Claymores dont have super human hearing, sight, smell. Unless of course their name is Miata.

Being able to hear someone sneaking up behind you requires a super-human sense of hearing if you are as distracted as Teresa was.

Doesn't need to be immaculate, just sufficient. Priscilla's sneak attack wouldn't be immaculate either.

Priscilla's movement only had to be suffecient for her sneak attack to be sucessful, but Teresa would require more then that to avoid that, which is why sneak attacks are a good thing.

That's right. She says her aura, as she is accustomed to detecting Claymores by their yoki. Her physical presence is revealed by other things that can be detected by even normal senses.

Thats the point, Teresa is not accustomed to fighting an opponent who can erase her Yoki, and thus would not expect such an opponent to sneak up on her.

I'd be shocked too if I were a good yoki reader and came across one who I couldn't read at all. But that's not enough for me to accept that she couldn't see, smell or hear her coming.

See? Teresa was looking somewhere else, specifically right at the building she just came out of, with 3 top ranked Claymores after her head.

Smell? we are talking about Teresa and not Miata right?

Hear? Same as see, she was focusing on the 3 biggest threats she could detect, and under normal circumstances it would be the best thing to do, but it put her at a disadvantage this time.

Ah. Now I see. Yes, Windcutter's advantage is precision by the very nature of Quicksword requiring so much more to control it. But I still give the power to Quicksword.

Heh, possibly, but it is really up in the air at this point.

-----

As for Guts, personally I would think he could own most of the lower AB we have run across in the series, and maybe some of the higher ones, that guy is crazy.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 16:05

Grrr...you're gonna make me hate you.

The truth is suppose to hurt! He doesn't have yoki and in the Claymore world no yoki = no use. I think he can take normal yomas at most. Claymores + ABs = no . I havent read past the hentai anime ending so I dont know how much stronger he gets.

Tempest35

2007-10-24, 16:07

Good grief...is this some way to keep Teresa on the 'untouchable' pedastal here? For all accounts, who said that Priscilla even MOVED once the operation started? Of course Priscilla wouldn't make a sound IF she didn't have to move in the first place. Smell? Who's smelling what when they're leaping from a building falling around them? Too much Naruto ...
From what I can tell, all she did was just stand there, monitoring the fight inside and waited until Teresa jumped out and landed before she spoke to her.

As for Guts, his main thing would be his unpredictable fighting style...and the youma's/AB's overconfidence. Those two things make the odds in favor of Guts in a battle. Also him having a sword comparatively superior to their claymores also helps. Oh yeah, and the crossbolt arm helps too. :D

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 16:09

Last I checked Claymores dont have super human hearing, sight, smell. Unless of course their name is Miata.

See? Teresa was looking somewhere else, specifically right at the building she just came out of, with 3 top ranked Claymores after her head.

Smell? we are talking about Teresa and not Miata right?
Being able to hear someone sneaking up behind you requires a super-human sense of hearing if you are as distracted as Teresa was.
Don't need super senses to hear someone running towards you. Last I remember also, Teresa escaped from the three distracting her. I'm assuming Priscilla emitted some sort of odor that normal smelling can pick up.

Priscilla's movement only had to be suffecient for her sneak attack to be sucessful, but Teresa would require more then that to avoid that, which is why sneak attacks are a good thing.That's why I go back to her superior reflexes.

As for Guts, personally I would think he could own most of the lower AB we have run across in the series, and maybe some of the higher ones, that guy is crazy.

Just lower ABs? Now way. I'm a professing blind Guts fanboy. Guts will kill even Priscilla!

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 16:11

The truth is suppose to hurt! He doesn't have yoki and in the Claymore world no yoki = no use. I think he can take normal yomas at most. Claymores + ABs = no . I havent read past the hentai anime ending so I dont know how much stronger he gets.

Let me put it this way, Guts could definatly take Dauf now. Don't think he could beat Rigaldo though.

Edit: To khryoleoz:

Don't need super senses to hear someone running towards you. Last I remember also, Teresa escaped from the three distracting her. I'm assuming Priscilla emitted some sort of odor that normal smelling can pick up.

The point is, Priscilla simply walked up to her, and the last thing Teresa would expect, or notice would be someone walking (or running) nearby, it could well be a human getting the hell out of there.

Smelling Priscilla?..... ummm...do I really have to counter that?

Fine I will; last I checked Claymores (except for Miata) lack super-human senses (other then sight), and smelling another person just standing there, or coming at you, ranks about impossible for anyone.

I doubt Priscilla smelled of sewer water or some other such strong odor either.

That's why I go back to her superior reflexes.

They sure did not save her when Priscilla finally killed her huh?

Just lower ABs? Now way. I'm a professing blind Guts fanboy. Guts will kill even Priscilla!

I gave him Dauf's head, but that is about as far as I am willing to go till he kills Griffith.

Mord

2007-10-24, 17:29

Smelling Priscilla?..... ummm...do I really have to counter that?

Fine I will; last I checked Claymores (except for Miata) lack super-human senses (other then sight), and smelling another person just standing there, or coming at you, ranks about impossible for anyone.

I doubt Priscilla smelled of sewer water or some other such strong odor either.

Clare states in the very first chapter that Raki smells of yoma so all she had to do was follow him to find the yoma.

Also while it is possible that it is something unique to Clare, in the second chapter Rubel mentions that her body produces the smell of blood and that she can't wash it away.

There is also chapter 13, where Teresa jumps and pushes Clare out of the way when a bandit drops down on them from the trees. Then again in chapter 15 Teresa confronts one of the bandits and states that she sensed him following them.

azurie

2007-10-24, 17:46

if you remember his wound was infected in that chapter so it reeked of infection somethin if you've never smelled it is rather nose turning trust me it can burn them hairs quick. don't need a super nose for that just a little sensative

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 18:35

Clare states in the very first chapter that Raki smells of yoma so all she had to do was follow him to find the yoma.

Also while it is possible that it is something unique to Clare, in the second chapter Rubel mentions that her body produces the smell of blood and that she can't wash it away.

You bring up a good point about the unique smell of Yoma, but I doubt Teresa would notice something like that in the midst of a battle with 3 other Claymores, especially from an opponent she cannot detect.

There is also chapter 13, where Teresa jumps and pushes Clare out of the way when a bandit drops down on them from the trees. Then again in chapter 15 Teresa confronts one of the bandits and states that she sensed him following them.

Notice this is during night time and Teresa is not in the middle of a fight, it is easy enough to tell when someone is following you, especially when he has a gaping wound and probably not keeping himself well concealed.

khryoleoz

2007-10-24, 20:01

The point is, Priscilla simply walked up to her, and the last thing Teresa would expect, or notice would be someone walking (or running) nearby, it could well be a human getting the hell out of there.I think you've perceived the events inaccurately here. Teresa wasn't surprised because someone was there whose "presence" she didn't detect. Let's examine her words carefully.

1) "There was another one?" What she means by "another one" is another Claymore. She didn't say "There was someone there?". That is what would reveal that Teresa was completely oblivious to the fact of Priscilla taking up a certain space at a certain time.

2) "But I didn't sense her aura at all." Obviously, she refers to a complete lack of yoki emission from Priscilla.

In short, she was surprised that there was a Claymore there whom she noticed but whose yoki she didn't pick up. Nothing in that makes explicit that Teresa simply didn't know that Priscilla was there. So let's put that line of reasoning to rest already.

They sure did not save her when Priscilla finally killed her huh?We've been over this. She was unguarded and was duped to believing the battle was over. Furthermore, Priscilla was still at 80+% yoki output and Teresa at 0%. At this disparity, Priscilla undeniably overpowers Teresa and the position Teresa put herself in sealed her fate.

I gave him Dauf's head, but that is about as far as I am willing to go till he kills Griffith.Which he will in time. So I'll just preemptively award Guts that status.

Also, thanks Mord for the smelling idea.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-24, 20:33

I think you've perceived the events inaccurately here. Teresa wasn't surprised because someone was there whose "presence" she didn't detect. Let's examine her words carefully.

1) "There was another one?" What she means by "another one" is another Claymore. She didn't say "There was someone there?". That is what would reveal that Teresa was completely oblivious to the fact of Priscilla taking up a certain space at a certain time.

This could also be a translation error, as the anime refers to it as " I didn't even sense her presence." Not sure if this is a difference in anime/manga or a simple translation error on the part of ViZ.

2) "But I didn't sense her aura at all." Obviously, she refers to a complete lack of yoki emission from Priscilla.

In admitting this Teresa has effectivly stated she was not prepared for an attack from Priscilla.

In short, she was surprised that there was a Claymore there whom she noticed but whose yoki she didn't pick up. Nothing in that makes explicit that Teresa simply didn't know that Priscilla was there. So let's put that line of reasoning to rest already.

If she did not realize it was a Claymore standing next to her, it is effectivly the same as saying there was no one there.

Let us assume that Teresa knew that someone was their, she still would not have expected the Yoki-less individual to attack with the strength and speed of a high ranking Claymore at point-blank range.

Not to mention Teresa herself stated she would have gotten injured if Priscilla had attacked at that moment.

We've been over this. She was unguarded and was duped to believing the battle was over. Furthermore, Priscilla was still at 80+% yoki output and Teresa at 0%. At this disparity, Priscilla undeniably overpowers Teresa and the position Teresa put herself in sealed her fate.

She was also staring directly at Priscilla, and the power-up of Priscilla simply takes the place of the suprise factor Priscilla had going for her before the fight started.

Teresa was not expecting either attack, thus the result would have been the same in both cases, Teresa was caught off guard and got injured/died.

Which he will in time. So I'll just preemptively award Guts that status.

You assume much, but your probably right in this case :p

Also, thanks Mord for the smelling idea.

It was indeed an interesting point, but I doubt it played a part in Teresa noticing Priscilla.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 22:31

Oh man we should just agree to disagree and move onto another assumption debate. I think we covered pretty much everything about that scene and no one is going to bring anymore new info. Im sure we wont persuade each other as well. Unless someone have contact with the mangka and asked him personally -_-.

stormy001_M1A2

2007-10-24, 23:20

This discussion is rapidly turning into fanboy defense of Theresa.

My take is, despite all her stats, Theresa normal senses is just like any other Claymores but not as keen as current no 4, Miata. Miata is in the top 5 for one reason that is her acute 5 normal senses. However all Claymore normal senses is above and beyond human ones that is for sure.

So in skirmish, Priscillia able to sneak behind a very distracted Theresa's back is given since Priscillia herself are no slob compared to Theresa. I don't see what is argument here is all about.

Sassarai

2007-10-24, 23:35

khryoleoz

2007-10-25, 00:44

In admitting this Teresa has effectivly stated she was not prepared for an attack from Priscilla.I'm not arguing this. I'm arguing that the mission would have succeded then and there because you say Teresa can't do anything about Priscilla had she stuck to the plan. First, Teresa escaped her distraction then ended up at a location where Priscilla still had to close some distance in order to land her attack. So it doesn't matter that Teresa couldn't detect her yoki. She would just hear someone charging her at great speed. If you want to retreat to Teresa not having Maita's senses, fine. While Maita's senses are above the average Claymore, a Claymore's senses are above an average human. She needed only that much to detect that something with hostile intent was coming her way. Priscilla would have been better off if she tip-toed quietly since her yoki is indetectible anyway.

If she did not realize it was a Claymore standing next to her, it is effectivly the same as saying there was no one there.
Why? The difference between something being there and nothing being there is quite significant.

Let us assume that Teresa knew that someone was their, she still would not have expected the Yoki-less individual to attack with the strength and speed of a high ranking Claymore at point-blank range.First it was not at point blank range. If Priscilla were to attack, the distance she'd have to close would produce other disturbances that running in full armor would. So the yoki-hiding trick is rendered useless. Teresa would be alerted to the incoming hostile threat and would just react with the same superior speed and reflexes she used to kick her ass in the first place.

Not to mention Teresa herself stated she would have gotten injured if Priscilla had attacked at that moment.How bad? Why didn't she admit to Priscilla being able to kill her? Maybe because Teresa herself knew better or at least believed otherwise?

She was also staring directly at Priscilla, and the power-up of Priscilla simply takes the place of the suprise factor Priscilla had going for her before the fight started.I don't follow your logic. You earlier equate something being there as good as nothing being there, which is a logical falsehood. Here, you do the same by saying two different scenarios are the same. Priscilla's power-up combined with Teresa's false sense of security made all the difference.

Teresa was not expecting either attack, thus the result would have been the same in both cases, Teresa was caught off guard and got injured/died.Here, Priscilla WAS at point blank range. Teresa thought the battle was over. Notice that Priscilla's first move wasn't to behead Teresa, but to neutralize her chief defenses, her fighting arms. So the earlier scenario where the surprise was only in that she detected a Claymore whose Claymore aura she couldn't feel was quite unlike this one. A lot more things happened here that Teresa's mind had to process, not just surprising but stunning her, resulting in a delay in reaction that was fatal.

You assume much, but your probably right in this case :pOf course I am. Guts is Guts.

It was indeed an interesting point, but I doubt it played a part in Teresa noticing Priscilla.Maybe not so much, unless Priscilla didn't bathe the day before when she killed a legion of yoma.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-10-25, 00:45

Too bad I wouldn't label myself a fanboy of Teresa ( Galatea's more of my char type). Just because ppl disagree with you dont' label them a fanboy and you havent said anything that fenrir hasn't said already. Nothing solid as far as I see it. Teresa's back was given to one of the other hunters while she was distracted before she jumped down from the window. Just because her back was given doesnt mean instant kill. Do you even realize Prissy wasn't even that close to her when she landed. Whether she could of gotten closer without Teresa noticing is up to your interpretation.

My final word on it is this;

Priscilla is not the same as the other warriors, because Teresa could not detect her like she did Noel, or any of the others, thus Teresa would not have been able to see her coming as she is accustomed too (sensing Yoki).

The fact that Priscilla held her own against Teresa (who going by the majority standards was superior to Priscilla) for a lengthy amount of time also proves Teresa's overreliance on Yoki-sensing.

Priscilla also was abscent from the area next to Teresa when she landed, and one-two panels later she was calmly standing their, within striking distance of Teresa.

A warrior of Priscilla's calibur could have quite easily closed that distance and put her 2m long blade were it hurts, even if not fatal it would at least cause significant injury.

Teresa herself also admitted that she probably would have been struck.

But that is all I have to say on the topic.

-------------------------------

My vote for the next topic isssssssssssssss:

Miata vs Galatea

In honor of the upcoming chapter of course. :D

In one corner we have the former #3 Galatea!

Upside:

Her greatest talent is manipulating Yoki, and as shown by her stats, she is an all around exceptional warrior.

She also has alot of power in her Yoki, which she claims increases her strength by the greatest factor of all 47 warriors of her generation.

Not only that, she has not been seen in action for 7 years, so it is anyones guess how much she has grown, in both skill and power.

Downsides: Her current opponent is on Yoki supression pills, which eliminates her greatest ability, Yoki manipulation.

She is also probably not expecting an attack, especially from such a powerful opponent that she cannot even detect.

She herself cannot afford to use Yoki, as doing so will make her presence detectable by anyone who is close enough to sense her, the Organization, Abyssal Ones, you name it.

------------------------------------

In the other corner we have current #4 Miata!

Upside:

Said to have the capabilities to compete for the #1 spot, Miata is a true powerhouse.

We have seen her tear Yoma apart with her bare hands and brutalize Awakened Beings without effort, alone. Only Teresa of the faint smile has been witnessed doing such an act, which only enchances this child's status.

She also has a powerful asset in her Enchanced Senses, including her sixth sense, which allows her to fight like no other Claymore before her, purely on instinct, without the worries of distracting thoughts.

She has the arguably most powerful ability any Claymore has possesed so far in the series.

She is a being of instinct, and her instincts serve her well.

Downsides:

Miata is on Yoki-Supression pills, which leaves her unable to use her undoubtadly immense Yoki reserves, which in the long run may be a good thing as this also gives her an advantage and takes away from the risk of her awakening.

Miata is in the care of an extremely weak tag-along in the form of current #47 Clarice, who she cares a great deal for, this is a huge handicap for this immenesely powerful warrior, as Clarice offers almost no benefits other then keeping Miata stable.

The fight is also taking place in a populated town, which can be a major problem for the mentally unstable and socially inept warrior.

Did I mention Miata is mentally unstable?

Thoughts? Opinions?