Character discussion - Kyou [Archive]

Skyfall

2007-10-22, 10:35

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Kyou (Please don't confuse with her younger twin sister Ryou (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=59593)) related.
To keep the discussion enjoyable for all Clannad fans, please follow the guidelines below and stay on-topic!
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5310/kyou1pq8.jpg
Note: Please don't use this for the specific episode / chapter / game talk, there are other threads (http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=74) for that stuff.
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Rhyel

2007-10-22, 12:50

She is the funny side of the story, apparent no problems, with support of sister and pet, Kyou in scene is to happy moments. :)

KaneDragon

2007-10-22, 12:57

Kyou is a delicious tsundere, with light-blue panties. :D

tabun

2007-10-22, 14:23

Kyou is a delicious tsundere, with light-blue panties. :D
Alas, I can feel the tsundere quarreling from the episode 3 thread sweeping over to this one and the one devoted to Tomoyo *braces for impact*

I like her pretty much as a character, even more so since the blushing in the last episode. Not so much the pet, that is the icing on the cake, but the blushing :heh: Rowdy girls with a soft spot are always the most appealing characters to me!

Edit (@Ultima_Rasengan05)
I surely hope she won't be reduced to "the girl that always appears to beat up Sunohara" (neither would I like Tomoya to become "the girl Sunohara goes to in order to get beat up" :p ). So far, I like the subtle approach on her possible attraction to Tomoya (blushing sideglance at him at the mentioning of "something blue", how cute! ^,^

Ultima_Rasengan05

2007-10-22, 14:25

Kyou really likes to throw books just to get Tomoya's attention. Next to Tomoyo, Kyou has the "cool" characteristic within her that makes you think even though she acts like she's bullying Tomoya most of the time, she can be a cool person to hang out with. I even think that with all the "bullying" that she did to Tomoya so far, I think she might like the guy. I also think of Kyou as the comedic relief in the show instead of Sunohara, even though Sunohara was suppose to be the comedic relief in Clannad.:heh: Although we don't really know much about what story she has to contribute to Clannad, at least we know she is "bi"...haha:D

DazarGaidin

2007-10-22, 14:38

I like her, i dont think she is really tsundere, id think that would apply more to tomoyo. Kyou seems more like chidori from FMP, wild and outlandish. I am talking about this anime here, i know she might have been different in the game (which i know ziltch about).

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-22, 19:53

Kyou does have a strong tsundere aspect, especially in her offensive way of dealing with Tomoya.

houkoholic

2007-10-22, 20:40

I like her, i dont think she is really tsundere, id think that would apply more to tomoyo.

Tomoyo is not tsundere, not even close. Tomoyo speaks her mind and is straight as nails to express all her feelings, that's the opposite of a tsundere.

Kyou seems more like chidori from FMP.

Chidori from FMP is very much a tsundere. If you think Chidori is not tsundere, you need your definition of "tsundere" checked, very badly.

Remember people, a tsundere girl CAN be wild in nature, the key is the "denial" bit.

Daisuke CP9

2007-10-22, 21:45

Kyou does have a strong tsundere aspect, especially in her offensive way of dealing with Tomoya.
Hey, it's something we all love ^_~ Plus, her strategies are quite hilarious.
She is the funny side of the story, apparent no problems, with support of sister and pet, Kyou in scene is to happy moments.
Yeah, her imutou relationship does always warm my heart and her pet is just funny.

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-22, 22:02

Remember people, a tsundere girl CAN be wild in nature, the key is the "denial" bit.

No, the key of Tsundere is "Hostile to the beloved at first, but warms up to him/her."

That's why I said Kyou as a strong tsundere aspect: She isn't hostile enough to be a full-blown tsundere (unlike Asuka of Eva.)

Nightengale

2007-10-22, 22:40

No, the key of Tsundere is "Hostile to the beloved at first, but warms up to him/her."

That's why I said Kyou as a strong tsundere aspect: She isn't hostile enough to be a full-blown tsundere (unlike Asuka of Eva.)

That is the old tsundere concept, in my words, the 蓮蓉月饼 (( lotus mooncake )) of tsundere, which or which may not include yolk. :p

Definition of tsundere had evolved since then. Even alternations of facets that need not actual hostility, so long as it works betwen denial-harbored feelings, etc etc etc, it is tsundere, kinda those modern snow-mooncakes. 8P

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-22, 22:54

That is the old tsundere concept, in my words, the 蓮蓉月饼 (( lotus mooncake )) of tsundere, which or which may not include yolk. :p

Definition of tsundere had evolved since then. Even alternations of facets that need not actual hostility, so long as it works betwen denial-harbored feelings, etc etc etc, it is tsundere, kinda those modern snow-mooncakes. 8P

I'm too much of a traditionalist to accept that as "tsundere."

It's "tsundere lite", according to me.

Ascaloth

2007-10-22, 22:59

In other words, Kang Seung Jae subscribes to the "Shiraishi-ist" school of "classical" tsundere. Nothing particularly wrong there. :p

kct

2007-10-22, 23:05

Haha, if there is another term that does not use the word 'tsundere' (more so since she was receptive to Tomoya most of the time, if not for some of the kinks left and right) are 'ballistic'.

Of course, her qualities other than that (protective sister, Botan, etc.) makes her an interesting character.

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-22, 23:11

In other words, Kang Seung Jae subscribes to the "Shiraishi-ist" school of "classical" tsundere. Nothing particularly wrong there. :p

"Shiraishi-ist"? Care to explain?

kct

2007-10-22, 23:20

I think something along the lines of what the Shiraishi guy said in one of the Lucky Channel segments.

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-22, 23:51

I think something along the lines of what the Shiraishi guy said in one of the Lucky Channel segments.

Oh, you mean this? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgdcWSvdLCc

True, I'm a classical tsundereist.

dgreater1

2007-10-23, 00:47

A very simple explanation

Tsundere is taken from the Japanese word...

つんつん (tsuntsun) = aloof (can be wild, talkative, forceful, etc)
でれでれ (deredere) = lovestruck (suddenly become really shy, embarrassed, trying to deny her own feelings)

It means from tsuntsun to deredere (つんでれ), so in short, switching from being wild to being embarrassed and vice versa.

Kyou definitely is a tsundere, I won't tell the reason because that would mean spoiling your fun :D

As for Tomoyo, she' more of a tsuntsun type than deredere so we can't really say she's tsundere. Tomoyo is a straightforward girl with a wild side to say it short (not as wild as Kyou when it comes to Tomoya though).

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-23, 00:54

dgreater1

2007-10-23, 01:14

This is where the traditionalists and modernist split. Traditional is one-way, while modern is two-way

Geh... I'm outdated as always. Anyway mind if you explain the difference between Traditional and Modern (don't really know anything about modern type tsundere) tsundere? I'm Lazy Mode right now to search for it :heh:

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-23, 01:18

Geh... I'm outdated as always. Anyway mind if you explain the difference between Traditional and Modern (don't really know anything about modern type tsundere) tsundere? I'm Lazy Mode right now to search for it :heh:

Traditional: The traditional tsundere is characterized as a person that is initially cold towards another person but gradually begins to thaw and show their true self.

Modern: The new, evolved version of tsundere is a person whose emotions and feelings towards a person outwardly change frequently and may display many different personalities, sometimes to the point that can be considered as bipolar.

dgreater1

2007-10-23, 01:30

I see, I didn't know tsundere has a traditional type... I always thought tsundere means someone who switches from tsuntsun to deredere and deredere to tsuntsun everytime...

tabun

2007-10-23, 01:34

As I watch my prediction from a little more than 12 hours ago come true, i wonder if this will stop eventually on it's own? :(

Much more than the question if and what aspect of the-term-that-shall-henceforth-not-be-mentioned fits Kyou best, I'd be much more interested in speculations about why she shows such behaviour. Apparently, she and Tomoya have known each other for quite some time, which explains their rather open relationship. Still, why should she (who is shown to have quite the personality) shy away from telling Tomoya directly? Do you think she (as a character) might not be too certain of her feelings towards him?

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-23, 01:37

Nightengale

2007-10-23, 01:50

I see, I didn't know tsundere has a traditional type... I always thought tsundere means someone who switches from tsuntsun to deredere and deredere to tsuntsun everytime...

Basically, traditional is all about character development from how she changed from who she was to who she is.

Not saying modern does not possess character development, but it is more shifty. :heh:

As I watch my prediction from a little more than 12 hours ago come true, i wonder if this will stop eventually on it's own? :(

Much more than the question if and what aspect of the-term-that-shall-henceforth-not-be-mentioned fits Kyou best, I'd be much more interested in speculations about why she shows such behaviour. Apparently, she and Tomoya have known each other for quite some time, which explains their rather open relationship. Still, why should she (who is shown to have quite the personality) shy away from telling Tomoya directly? Do you think she (as a character) might not be too certain of her feelings towards him?

I think it's the whole "We are already good friends, but I am afraid that confessing my feelings would ruin our friendship" thing. Modern wild tsundere is already a concept used to shade vulnerable aspects of a character with a seemingly masculine and aggressive one and judging from the OP, we can see that Kyou's clearly not all that as she's shown. C'mon, drowsing under the rain SCREAMS emotional vulnerability.

Assuming if my speculation is right, what would be more important than her tsundere facet is what being the catalyst that would push it further. There's always some form of a catalyst (( awkward situations, 3rd parties, etc )) that would somehow break the conventional denial mold, even more so when Kyou looks like she's comfortable with her current situation.

Skyfall

2007-10-23, 02:34

Modern or Old version, i still don't consider Kyou a tsundere. True, she has the traits almost always found in those, but simply being violent and rash does not immediately a tsundere make. Neither do hiding/denying ones feelings - that would make 80% of all people a tsundere. Is Sekai from SD a tsundere ? As it stands now, i see her just as a girl with wild personality. While her behavior is a very good setup for a tsundere, she has yet to devolve to that state in my opinion. If else fails, use my racial ability 'Hate Tsundere On Sight'. I don't dislike Kyou thus far :heh:

Aside from hiding ones feelings not being a necessary indicator of being a tsundere, there might be a lot of reasons for her not making a move on Tomoya (assuming she has a thing for him, which is true, most likely), something like Ryou possibly having a crush on him as well. As pampering of her sister as she seems to be, i doubt she would make a move on him if she knew about Ryou having a crush on him.

Ascaloth

2007-10-23, 05:53

Klashikari

2007-10-23, 06:11

Like I said in the episode 3 thread, I can't see Kyou as the way how "tsundere" are, be it old or "consensus" version of it.

Maybe this is because it is "my" version of Tsundere, but for me, a character which harbors such trait is not qualified like this all the time just because of being dishonest.
Most likely, being dishonest with their feelings can have its roots from anything. (and seriously, there are so much examples in anime that this "specific" trait isn't reserved for Tsundere alone)

To me, a Tsundere is rather a character who displays a fool aversion towards their interest (be it love or close friendship etc), conflicting directly with what they really feel, having such result that they are demonstrating crystal clear different behaviours.

Now, what are the difference with what i just babbled out and Kyou? Basically, Kyou (currently in the anime, of course) doesn't display any peculiar "behaviour" towards Tomoya. She is brash AND friendly in her environment, and if she is pissed, the said person will eat a) a dictionnary b) a kick c) ????
What i can see with Kyou's behaviour is rather what she is all the time with anyone.

That is absolutely not what a Tsundere is, as Tsundere are "violent" in a "cold" manner. Of course, with the huge tide of "new version" of tsundere, they tend do be harsh and brutal (physical "punishments" etc) as well.
But most of the time, their violence are a mean to draw a line, something like "don't stay close to me!". Such reaction is an attempt of "self defense" and intregrity, as they don't want to "lose" to their person of interest.

I would likely say Kyou is a Tsundere if she display such behaviour more against Tomoya, in such fashion that she prevents him to be too close to her.
However, the anime portrays her violence more likely as a "natural" hotblooded personality towards anyone.

That how i would say Kyou isn't a Tsundere.

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-23, 06:15

Like I said in the episode 3 thread, I can't see Kyou as the way how "tsundere" are, be it old or "consensus" version of it.

-Snip-

I would likely said Kyou is a Tsundere if she display such behaviour more against Tomoya, in such fashion that she prevents him to be too close to her.
However, the anime portrays her violence more likely as a "natural" hotblooded personality towards anyone.

That how i would say Kyou isn't a Tsundere.

Which is why I said Kyou have a strong tsundere aspect, but isn't a tsundere. So far, there is no indication other than that she's a sort of tomboyish hot-headed girl.

As for whether it'll bloom fully, we'll have to see.

houkoholic

2007-10-23, 06:23

As for whether it'll bloom fully, we'll have to see.

Refer to the post that I made in the game thread, it answers all the points raised. ;)

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-23, 06:26

Refer to the post that I made in the game thread in answer to all the points raised. ;)

I already know, but keeping the discussion going.

tabun

2007-10-23, 07:04

However, the anime portrays her violence more likely as a "natural" hotblooded personality towards anyone.
Well said; I concur. Also, I am interested in what the "catalyst" Nightengale mentioned will be - and that there will be one I have no doubt of.

dgreater1

2007-10-23, 07:50

Houston... we're going in circle...

Anyway, the people saying she's not tsundere is basing their assumption on an anime that has only showed 3 episode. On the other hand, the people who's trying to say she's tsundere is basing their answer through the game... That's how it goes... If KyouAni erm... KyoAni ditches her tsundere nature then fans might... Hmm... no comment... :heh:

theused69

2007-10-23, 08:06

I agree with dgreater1. I for one, can't decide if Kyou's a real tsundere or not. Maybe because I'm seeing a far more tsunderic person (Tomoyo), and she doesn't really fit the Tsun-tsun dere-dere theme, maybe if I'll see her having a crush on Sunohara or something LOL....but just for the sake of labeling Kyou, maybe I'll call her a hybrid tsundere or something :heh:

dgreater1

2007-10-23, 08:35

I for one, can't decide if Kyou's a real tsundere or not. Maybe because I'm seeing a far more tsunderic person (Tomoyo), and she doesn't really fit the Tsun-tsun dere-dere theme, maybe if I'll see her having a crush on Sunohara or something LOL....but just for the sake of labeling Kyou, maybe I'll call her a hybrid tsundere or something :heh:

Problem with her falling in love with Sunohara is, she'll be saying "Hey, it's fun being with you, let's go out together." straight at his face, then Sunohara would go, "Oh... *blush* I... I don't know..." then Tomoyo would say "Just kidding!" after that, Sunohara would be enrage "What do you mean by that!?"... erm... that's almost saying Sunohara would be the tsundere here XD

anselfir

2007-10-23, 16:03

Would take a lot of energy to manage, this girl.

houkoholic

2007-10-23, 17:57

I already know, but keeping the discussion going.

What's the point of keeping the discussion though when the answer to the question is already there with no room for debate?

Not only that, more and more people are thinking Tomoyo is tsundere and another issue arises in that people are adapting an even more wrong definition of the word by focusing only on the abusive/violent nature, rather than the emotional reasoning behind what causes a tsundere to go tsun to begin with - it is a characteristic of a gap between acted out actions and feelings in mind, they act violent and sharp even though they really have a romantic feelings towards the subject at hand. Tomoyo only acts violent *if and only if* provoked hostily from someone like Sunohara and is not driven by her secret inner romantic feelings towards Sunohara.

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-23, 18:24

What's the point of keeping the discussion though when the answer to the question is already there with no room for debate?

Not only that, more and more people are thinking Tomoyo is tsundere and another issue arises in that people are adapting an even more wrong definition of the word by focusing only on the abusive/violent nature, rather than the emotional reasoning behind what causes a tsundere to go tsun to begin with - it is a characteristic of a gap between acted out actions and feelings in mind, they act violent and sharp even though they really have a romantic feelings towards the subject at hand. Tomoyo only acts violent *if and only if* provoked hostily from someone like Sunohara and is not driven by her secret inner romantic feelings towards Sunohara.

1. It's for the people who DON'T want to read the game threads and such.

2. You're right about Tomoyo. I consider her a passive Sunao-Cool (素直 - ク―ル)

Skyfall

2007-10-23, 18:34

What's the point of keeping the discussion though when the answer to the question is already there with no room for debate?

Thats your opinion, but please don't go passing it around as the undeniable truth. So far i have yet to see any arguments that would be rock solid one way or another. And yes, i have read your argument in the game thread... and all i have to say that our views what is a tsundere differ greatly in the first place, so no wonder there is no agreement to be gained here, as we are arguing different things. Klash summed up nicely (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1215926&postcount=28) what i consider to be a tsundere, and as such i don't consider her to be one.

iamandragon

2007-10-23, 19:15

If we all view Kyou's violent acts as her way of expressing friendliness, that will have everything solved...
By the way, someone find a video of the voice actress interview and watch the Kyou part--even the voice actress says Kyou is a wild girl. Wild =/= Tsundere
And look forward to my translation of part 3 of Maeda interview tomorrow (in FAQ), it contains his view on the Fujibayashi twins.

kct

2007-10-23, 20:33

As I said, Kyou is just 'ballistic' >.> . Tsundere wasn't a proper word to truly describe her, and yeah, she is basically wild (albeit not to the extent of being an Amazoness...but, riding mopeds is just...).

It is me or this is the only character discussion thread that have the biggest number of posts? (My post already started page 3.)

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-23, 20:40

It is me or this is the only character discussion thread that have the biggest number of posts? (My post already started page 3.)

About 2/3 of it is concerning whether Kyou is a tsundere or not.

houkoholic

2007-10-23, 21:04

Thats your opinion, but please don't go passing it around as the undeniable truth.

I really hate it when the final argument falls back to "that's your opinion" line. :rolleyes:

Of course it was my opinion, and so are yours and Klash and everyone elses. Except here, I've also support my opinion that she is one with enough reasoning, provided a widely accepted definition of the word as well as commonly accepted variation of the archtype in the Japanese otaku circle, a publicly voted poll, as well as game material that I'm confident enough to say that my opinion is well supported with more weight than say what Klash and you have said that it may as well be considered a case that is undebatable.

otoh, your reasoning is weak because you and Klash went out to redefine the meaning of the word from the beginning to fit your argument, rather than start with the most commonly accepted definition of the word and see whether the character fits. That's just moving the goal post, rather than actually debating on the question at hand.

kct

2007-10-23, 21:18

KaneDragon

2007-10-23, 21:22

Lol at this whole thread if it goes on like this, seriously.

I hope to say 'to each their own' but eh, this seems not to be the case here...but seriously, we are talking about the CURRENT Kyou here, not the later Kyou or anything as of now. As of now, she is just 'tsun' (not the hardcorer 'tsun' but she is going there).
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/209/kyouvectorohhozc3.png
This is exactly why I suggested making "Is Kyou a tsundere?" the poll for this thread. :p Hehe~

And I guess I'll repost these here for good measure.
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1089/tomoyakyouisbi2ar0.th.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tomoyakyouisbi2ar0.jpg)http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8927/pantiesdt5.th.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pantiesdt5.jpg)

Nightengale

2007-10-23, 21:30

I really hate it when the final argument falls back to "that's your opinion" line. :rolleyes:

Of course it was my opinion, and so are yours and Klash and everyone elses. Except here, I've also support my opinion that she is one with enough reasoning, provided a widely accepted definition of the word as well as commonly accepted variation of the archtype in the Japanese otaku circle, a publicly voted poll, as well as game material that I'm confident enough to say that my opinion is well supported with more weight than say what Klash and you have said that it may as well be considered a case that is undebatable.

otoh, your reasoning is weak because you and Klash went out to redefine the meaning of the word from the beginning to fit your argument, rather than start with the most commonly accepted definition of the word and see whether the character fits. That's just moving the goal post, rather than actually debating on the question at hand.

To be fair, veterans such as yourself have game materials to base your opinions on. Even then, for some reason, not everyone (( who's played )) agrees, for whatever reasons.

Personally, I can see the tsundere in Kyou (( pure speculation, but I think it's about 70% obvious she has a thing for Tomoya, dunno about Ryou though )) but talking just 3 episodes in, it's not weird that there are people who think otherwise, what's with the non-united opinions on what defines to them as 'tsundere.'

Klashikari

2007-10-24, 02:01

otoh, your reasoning is weak because you and Klash went out to redefine the meaning of the word from the beginning to fit your argument, rather than start with the most commonly accepted definition of the word and see whether the character fits. That's just moving the goal post, rather than actually debating on the question at hand.
I won't really debate with the earlier point since Nightengale already did well. I didn't play kyou's route yet, and seriously... it isn't a "no brainer" statement currently, otherwise, people wouldn't have such split opinion to begin.

as for the quote part, I'm really wondering how this "definition" was refined to fit my argument...
If i was to stricly use the definition of it, that wouldn't be even possible to apply.

"The definition of the term has evolved to apply to not only characters who change from harsh to gentle but who are cold on the outside and kind internally."

As far as i can see with the anime version, no, Kyou doesn't change from harsh to Gentle (and as I stated earlier, i'm not even sure if tagging along with Tomoya will really change her)... yet. Of course, things will be confirmed or not, but the first part is of course the "older" version of tsundere, which I think is the closest possible definition for Kyou's case, if she happens to change. (if they involve her romance part, that said)

The second part is even less possible to apply, since Kyou doesn't harbor any "hostile" in a sense she is trying to be alone. The fortune telling and the motorbike scenes demonstrated that Kyou is certainly not harboring any aversion to anyone.
Cold is arguably what it means, and "violent" might be an extra. But mainly, acting violent isn't synonym of "acting cold". And that's how i can't see Kyou as a "second type" tsundere, because she is hardly hostile, but just wild AND friendly.

feel free to claim your opinion anyway, but it doesn't require to dismantle other opinions just because they aren't basing on the same "data" as yours.

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 02:28

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-24, 03:01

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 04:17

Then what's a difference between bipolar and tsundere?

In my opinion (that's mine)... basing it on how their personality goes most of the time... btw, I don't really know if bipolar means tsun and dere at the same time, but if bipolar means shy and wild at the same time, I don't think there's any difference... I mean, a tsundere to me doesn't always need someone to love. As long as she acts tsuntsun and deredere all the time or at the same time, that's a tsundere to me, like I said before, someone who frequently switches mood XD

Klashikari

2007-10-24, 04:31

I don't really understand this other definition some people speak off, but in my case... I'll make it short, a tsundere (to me) is a person who is wild in nature but switches mood like crazy. Take for example, the 3rd picture that KaneDragon posted, Kyou's mood when she threw that dictionary at Sunohara's face was wild, then she became embarrassed when Sunohara commented about something he saw, then switches back to her wild side. :)

The "old" tsundere is rather the previous version we got (if you have watched Lucky Star, there is one Lucky Channel, where Shiraishi explains very well the change of the use of the term "Tsundere"):
Basically a character who is cold first, but then, as the relationship/interaction is going on, the said character becomes "fluffy". That means it is like a block of ice who melted over the time, and not someone switch here and there. Once it is melted, it is for good.

One of the most obvious Tsundere of that type is Tohsaka Rin, from Fate/Stay Night, who is rather fond of her objective alone, but as her interactions with Shirou goes on, she develops a liking towards him. (no mood switch, or very minimal, more caused by her temper rather than her "tsundere" side)

there isn't actually a need to "switch" like crazy. As some characters do this (Asuna from Negima, Asuka from Evangelion), other tsundere of the "modern type" are changing mood, but really on peculiar and rare occasions.
See Akiha from Tsukihime, who is rarely dere (well... it is relative)

that said, I see where you got this definition, though mood swing really depends how the "aggressive" parts is aimed for.
In kyou's case (or any girl of that genre), It is rather "normal" that the girl is first embarassed, then try to demolish the "offender" afterwards.
In fact, aside of the usual "moe blob" and naive characters, most female anime characters would beat the crap out of the said person..." (tsundere or not)

Then what's a difference between bipolar and tsundere?
errr... bipolar is somewhat very severe and doesn't follow exactly logic or feelings.
Rather, it is quite pathologic... guess the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder) is fine enough for some explanations...

The difference is huge, as even a "modern tsundere" (a character being aggressive and lovey dovey all the time, like Louise from ZNT) doesn't act out of the blue.

the term "bipolar" is just used too quickly, or rather an analogy how a tsundere looks like. It is more adapted for "Mania-depressive" people.

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 04:46

Very long... so just read the message above

I see now... So unless Kyou really opens up to Tomoya, you wouldn't consider her a tsundere then? Well, no one would be able to convince you unless you play the game. The term you're looking for is there as you can see and it probably wouldn't be in the anime since Tomoya will surely land on Nagisa's palm :heh:

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-24, 04:50

errr... bipolar is somewhat very severe and doesn't follow exactly logic or feelings.
Rather, it is quite pathologic... guess the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder) is fine enough for some explanations...

The difference is huge, as even a "modern tsundere" (a character being aggressive and lovey dovey all the time, like Louise from ZNT) doesn't act out of the blue.

the term "bipolar" is just used too quickly, or rather an analogy how a tsundere looks like. It is more adapted for "Mania-depressive" people.

I was just taking a stab at the definition of tsundere being "changing moods" :rolleyes:

Klashikari

2007-10-24, 04:50

I see now... So unless Kyou really opens up to Tomoya, you wouldn't consider her a tsundere then? Well, no one would be able to convince you unless you play the game. The term you're looking for is there as you can see and it probably wouldn't be in the anime since Tomoya will surely land on Nagisa's palm :heh:
Humm not really. in fact, the thing is kyou's "mood swing" trigger isn't exactly what i would expect from a tsundere.
Even if Kyou opens up to Tomoya, i wouldn't even call her tsundere, until she uses her wild demeanor to "pretend" and staya away from him. (basically, using her wild behaviour to claim a hostile position against him). Right now she is like this for anyone, that's why I believe the wild part of her is rather her personality as a whole, and not "tsundere" because she doesn't act like this to protect something/pretend the opposite of what she is.

In such, let's take the example of Hinako of Myself;Yourself who is clearly tsundere, and acts in such manner to feign the opposite of what she is (pretend to be adult, while she is still a kid, obviously). Being pinched with awkward hints she is indeed a kid (receiving a cute figurine), she still keep her "facade" by claiming "it would be a waste to not accept" about something and such.
That's how i see a "tsundere moodswing": acting cold, as an attempt to not be close of something, or not exposing themselve. and acting dere when their weak spot is hit, though it is alright to play along.

That said, i claimed my view was only from the anime, and i'm far from being able to check her path on the game anyway. Not exactly truth claimed anyway, that was rather my opinion about "wild" demeanor, which is not synonym of "tsundere trait" in my books.

I was just taking a stab at the definition of tsundere being "changing moods" :rolleyes:
my, completely missed the meaning of the remark, my bad >_>"

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-24, 05:20

my, completely missed the meaning of the remark, my bad >_>"

It's the internet :p

Back to Kyou: In the anime so far, Kyouhas not shown any definite tsundere characteristics to Tomoya or other boys, so let's wait and see before jumping to the conclusion.

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 05:30

So, unless she denies her feelings or try to pretend in a wild demeanor or wild manner towards Tomoya, you won't consider her tsundere then? Guys! Let's lock them in a dark room.
Well, anyway, tsundere for me is about personality as a whole in a person and not about developing personality in a story.

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-24, 05:33

Well, anyway, tsundere for me is about personality as a whole in a person and not about developing personality in a story.

If I may be harsh........

Tsundere is about development, or at least a characteristic that appears when you like/love someone. One cannot be a tsundere when one doesn't have a person to be a tsundere at.

In other words, tsundere can't be personality as a whole, since it has to have a subject to which it reacts.

tabun

2007-10-24, 05:40

tsundere is serious business

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 05:44

If I may be harsh........

Tsundere is about development, or at least a characteristic that appears when you like/love someone. One cannot be a tsundere when one doesn't have a person to be a tsundere at.

In other words, tsundere can't be personality as a whole, since it has to have a subject to which it reacts.

It's all right, but I think you didn't get my idea, what I meant is for me, tsundere is a kind of personality, being tsuntsun and deredere (he can react to anyone and doesn't need someone to love to do so since it's about mood switching), and not something that requires development like, starting from being wild to slowly opening up to someone but denies that fact.

I think we're going in circle again...

But anyway, I'm shourting for my beloved Boke! Let her out already XD

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-24, 05:54

It's all right, but I think you didn't get my idea, what I meant is for me, tsundere is a kind of personality, being tsuntsun and deredere (he can react to anyone and doesn't need someone to love to do so since it's about mood switching), and not something that requires development like, starting from being wild to slowly opening up to someone but denies that fact.

By that definition, practically all hot-headed people are tsunderes.

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 06:01

By that definition, practically all hot-headed people are tsunderes.

Not at all, I did mention tsuntsun and deredere, anyway, that's like saying Akira has deredere side. :heh:

iamandragon

2007-10-24, 10:04

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 13:59

I think that's normal reaction for every girls. I don't know the way guys think but if another guy sees a me in underwear no matter who it is I'll be embarrassed. Therefore, this scene to prove Kyou is tsundere is void.

Let's sing School Rumble's Scramble! Guruguru mawaru, guruguru mawaru, guruguru mawaru, guruguru mawaru...

Ignore my singing... Anyway, your definition of tsundere is more on the side of character development (the traditional, old), while some of us are using the evolve form of tsundere where the said character's personality is what matters. Kyou is tsundere because she goes tsuntsun and deredere (moonstruck for a much easier term to understand) everytime and doesn't really need a special catalyst to draw it out. Much like Kagurazaka Azuna, Anya (Negima), Shana, Sonozaki Mion, Houjou Satoko (the lonely... erm rephrase... the loli tsundere), Suiseiseki, Shinku, Sawatari Makoto, Sawachika Eri, Asuka Langley etc., or do you want to argue about Hiiragi Kagami not being a tsundere too? And by the way, don't think that's the only time you'll see her mood swing.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0YuphModU

Did you see Shiraishi's reaction when he was asked if "Kagami is not a tsundere, then what is she?"

Anyway, I give up if that still doesn't make sense to you...

Klashikari

2007-10-24, 14:14

Ignore my singing... Anyway, your definition of tsundere is more on the side of character development (the traditional, old), while some of us are using the evolve form of tsundere where the said character's personality is what matters. Kyou is tsundere because she goes tsuntsun and deredere (moonstruck for a much easier term to understand) everytime and doesn't really need a special catalyst to draw it out.
Both definitions use the same basis, and seriously, if there isn't a catalyst, why characters would be tsundere to begin with? Why would Kyou turns deredere without Tomoya (if she is a tsundere) ? Why Louise would be without Saito, etc?

Again, the only "deredere" part (only one so far) of Kyou was shown with the pantsu which is a behaviour to almost ALL anime girls, absolutely not only for tsundere. Besides, it isn't even a demonstration of deredere. Embarassement doesn't show any form of mandatory lovey dovey side.

Much like Kagurazaka Azuna, Anya (Negima), Shana, Sonozaki Mion, Houjou Satoko (the lonely... erm rephrase... the loli tsundere), Suiseiseki, Shinku, Sawatari Makoto, Sawachika Eri, Asuka Langley etc., or do you want to argue about Hiiragi Kagami not being a tsundere too? And by the way, don't think that's the only time you'll see her mood swing....
I think I blogged like no time. Excuse me but... Mion and Satoko as Tsundere...!?
Mion is the typical tomboyish girl who can't express her feelings. She has RARE mood swing, and she DOESN'T harbor any opposition to keiichi AT ALL. If anything, it "could" be valid if she was having an aversion to him. But she is NOWHERE from being a tsundere... she DOES NOT have a Tsun to begin with!
That's the same for Satoko, who doesn't have ANY tsun either !

Asuna and Anya ARE tsundere, and the catalyst is negi's actions.
The rest of list are acting because of a catalyst... that has NOTHING to do with the first definition... Both definitions (old and modern) follow the same point: an initial cold/brutal interaction with their interest, which either melt, or switch with the deredere.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0YuphModU

Did you see Shiraishi's reaction when he was asked if "Kagami is not a tsundere, then what is she?"

Anyway, I give up if that still doesn't make sense to you...Kagami is obviously a Tsundere of the second type, and act harsh towards only Konata, as it is her friendship interest but can't comprehend her fellow habits, nor she can't allow herself weaknesses, otherwise, Konata would jump on her. She is a tsundere because Konata is her catalyst...
Baiscally, Shiraishi was too strict with his own definition, while the definition mutated to allow both type. Rather a new standard? who knows, but Kagami's case is nowhere near of Kyou's, that's how i see it.

Sheesh... at this rate, Tomoyo and EVEN Nagisa will be considered as Tsundere if they just have "some" mood swing because of Tomoya.

... i wasn't willing to deviate the discussion into "tsundere" thesis, but seriously, the whole deal is based on only ONE sentence giving the whole deal for both known type of this category of character.
Once again: traits are shared in several archtype, and getting one of them doesn't put a character in the category itself.
As an example, Tomboyish and Tsundere characters share some similarities, but if you pick a "violent girl", that doesn't mean she is 100% a tsundere, she might be tomboyish instead.

iamandragon

2007-10-24, 14:33

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 15:32

and seriously, if there isn't a catalyst, why characters would be tsundere to begin with?

I said it doesn't really need a special catalyst since it's about personality. I didn't say, it doesn't need a catalyst, how would you pull out their personality if there isn't anyone to pull it out? And in Kyou's case, Tomoya ( person who she doesn't have an idea that she likes) is there to pull out her tsutsun and deredere personality.

I think I blogged like no time. Excuse me but... Mion and Satoko as Tsundere...!?
Mion is the typical tomboyish girl who can't express her feelings. She has RARE mood swing, and she DOESN'T harbor any opposition to keiichi AT ALL. If anything, it "could" be valid if she was having an aversion to him. But she is NOWHERE from being a tsundere... she DOES NOT have a Tsun to begin with!
That's the same for Satoko, who doesn't have ANY tsun either!

Yup, Mion is a typical tomboy who can't express her feelings. But she doesn't need a Keiichi to be tsuntsun, she acts mildly tsun, same with Satoko.

Anyway a clearer interpretation of tsuntsun (http://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/english_japanese/?search=%E3%81%A4%E3%82%93%E3%81%A4%E3%82%93&match=beginswith&dictionary=NEW_EJJE&block=63697&offset=882)
It's about mood being bad (wild) and not a person being bad (wild).

Kagami is obviously a Tsundere, and act harsh towards only Konata, as it is her friendship interest but can comprehend her fellow habits, nor she can't allow herself weaknesses, otherwise, Konata would jump on her. She is a tsundere because Konata is her catalyst...

She can also be tsundere without Konata, it just happens that Konata is the only right person in the show who can pull out her tsundere side just about right.

Sheesh... at this rate, Tomoyo and EVEN Nagisa will be considered as Tsundere if they are considered like it because of Tomoya..."

Erm... and why in the world did they become tsun? They weren't even close to tsun to begin with. And I didn't say having mood swing is tsundere but rather having a mood that swings from tsuntsun to deredere is tsundere.

Tsundere isn't just all about denial of feeling towards something or character development or whatever, but some sort of a personality that goes tsuntsun and deredere or a person whose tsuntsun and deredere personality is above most of her personality. The catalyst you're talking about is someone who pulls out that tsuntsun and deredere out of her every time. Take for example, Asuka, she's tsuntsun most of the time towards Shinji, but when it comes to Kaji she becomes deredere, making her tsundere. And as I said before we're going in circle again. :eyespin:

Kinny Riddle

2007-10-24, 15:37

Just in case if people have misunderstood me...

Just while everyone is arguing about mood change is Tsundere or not, I am here trying to say: Kyou was NEVER Tsun. She is always trying to act friendly, just like guys always punch each other(eastern guys do that all the time, don't ask me why), Kyou was trying to express friendship through "the guy's way". She is wild, crazy, and sometimes like a cat, but definitely never been Tsun.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say that's absolutely nonsense (no disrespect). What you have just said is exactly a form of Tsun. If that isn't Tsun, then I don't know what is. Kyou's Tsun is more of the physical type compared to Suzumiya Haruhi's mood-swing Tsun.

In very simple terms, Tsundere is "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". That is what Kyou is, in that she acts all combative to try and hide her feelings for Tomoya.

If you disagree, please list any Tsun moments of Kyou for me and I'll explain.

For now I'm sleepy. And I'm sure houkuholic here would gladly provide a long list for you.

Skyfall

2007-10-24, 15:58

I suggest we simply drop this whole thing. It is obvious we are not going to obtain an agreement whether Kyou is a tsundere or not if we can't even agree to what tsundere really is in the first place. No wonder this whole thing is going in circles :eyespin:

iamandragon

2007-10-24, 16:36

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 17:23

I kind of agree...there are people who thinks going wild is Tsun...if that so...how do you explain a girl going wild? Does she has to destroy a continent to be a wild instead of a Tsun...? Kyou never once did deny her feelings for Tomoya, it's just she acts like a guy and never says it out loud. Well until houkuholic shows up then...

You don't get the idea, you don't need to act wild to be tsun but you can act wild for having a tsun personality. And Kyou is a person who has a tsun personality so she acts wild. You don't need to deny something in order to be a tsun because being a tsun means being a person who has a bad mood. And she doesn't just act like a guy, she almost always go in bad mood mode (tsun mode) making her tsun. What's your definition of "tsun" anyway? Someone who has to deny her feeling in a wild demeanor? That thing is what you call being a tsundere and not tsun. She's trying to deny that things in a wild demeanor (being tsun) because she feels embarrassed or let's say denying it while having conflicts with her own words or being moonstruck, in longer words, denying it in a confusing manner (being dere).

And for what I know "tsuntsun" in tsun is used to describe behavior and it usually means "aloof" but if you want a different description click this tsuntsun (http://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/english_japanese/?search=%E3%81%A4%E3%82%93%E3%81%A4%E3%82%93&match=beginswith&dictionary=NEW_EJJE&block=63697&offset=882)

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-24, 17:44

iamandragon

2007-10-24, 18:24

We were also basing our information on game.

Kyou is a always in a happy-go-around mood. The only time she was in a bad mood was in the rain. (game) Just because she acts violent doesn't mean she is in a bad mood. And Kyou wasn't embarrassed to say her feelings, but she is

Not wanting Tomoya to like her so that she can give her sister, Ryou, a chance.

The script writer also never intended for Kyou to be a tsundere (as mentioned in the interview), but as a ‘girl who can always approach as a friend’. Although you can argue that a 'girl who can always approach as a friend' does not conflict with the fact that she can be tsundere, keep this in mind, Kai never intended to created a tsundere--he is trying to create a girl who is as close to real life situation as possible(and hence the Anti-KEY theme of him) So it's all right if you think realistic for Kyou.

Pendevous

2007-10-24, 18:27

I've always liked tsundere characters, and Kyou is no exception. I even made a wallpaper for her hahhaha! :heh: Just sad that I didn't get to see here light blue panties. XD

iamandragon

2007-10-24, 18:35

Don't just jump to conclusions yet, we still havn't decided weather Kyou is tsundere or not!

dgreater1

2007-10-24, 21:08

Given that you stick to the definition of personality (when it ISN'T), I'll counter with this: When has Kyou been deredere, then?

When she kicked Sunohara for commenting about what he saw. It's a simple deredere reaction where she acts really violent. She got embrassed that Tomoya might notice what he just said and so she switched the attention to Sunohara getting a massive damage kick that sent him off to lala land. That's deredere to you with a mixture of hostility.

Just while everyone is arguing about mood change is Tsundere or not, I am here trying to say: Kyou was NEVER Tsun.
======================
Kyou is a always in a happy-go-around mood. The only time she was in a bad mood was in the rain. (game) Just because she acts violent doesn't mean she is in a bad mood. And Kyou wasn't embarrassed to say her feelings, but she is

So her bad temper/mood (tsuntsun) which also implies being wild isn't supposed to be tsuntsun? Like I said that kind of personality is what makes a tsun. Being bad tempered/mood to the point they become a bit wild or angry. Anyway, Tsuntsun doesn't imply bad mood as in, suffering because something happened. When she was in the rain, that wasn't what tsuntsun means. That interpretation of yours about bad mood is "not in good mood, disheartened" instead of being in a bad temper.

I haven't seen any tsuntsun nor deredere behavior from Kyou so far.

Refer to the "bi" scene and to the Botan scene, that's a tsuntsun scenario or do you think she's not in bad temper/mood there? Anyway, the only deredere scenario I cought was *read the first quote above*, although, she might have been in deredere mode about the "bi" thing, I didn't notice so I'm not sure...

Excuse me, but have we seen any specific scenes in the anime so far that indicates Kyou has feelings for Tomoya? I believe we need to address that que3stion before going on to whether Kyou's behavior is tsun or not.

A very important thing to remember, being tsundere doesn't always mean, the tsundere character has to be in love, there are tsundere who are not in love with the main character. Take for example what I said before, Asuka is tsuntsun towards Shinji but deredere towards Kaji, Kagurazaka Azuna is tsuntsun towards Negi but deredere towards Takahata, well, she can be deredere towards Negi sometimes too. Hiiragi Kagami is tsuntsun towards Konata and also deredere towards her (she's not in love with her though). As for Kyou, she is tsuntsun towards Sunohara and Tomoya but becomes deredere when she's in an unfavorable position (it doesn't mean you can't be in deredere mode if you're not in love). Kyou's personality is typically ill-natured/wild/hot-tempered (tsun), but she gets embarrassed easily (dere). And that's one of the traits of a tsundere.

Remember how Shiraishi got stumped when Akira asked him "what is she if she's not a tsundere" after butting in with "it's too early to decide that."? He couldn't answer right because he's following the traditional tsundere definition where character development is the main focus. Kagami isn't a developing character, she stayed the same all throughout the show but they considered her tsundere because of her usually hot-tempered (tsun) but easily embarrassed (dere) when dealing with Konata personality.

The script writer also never intended for Kyou to be a tsundere (as mentioned in the interview), but as a ‘girl who can always approach as a friend’. Although you can argue that a 'girl who can always approach as a friend' does not conflict with the fact that she can be tsundere, keep this in mind, Kai never intended to created a tsundere--he is trying to create a girl who is as close to real life situation as possible(and hence the Anti-KEY theme of him) So it's all right if you think realistic for Kyou.

The script writer also never intended for Kyou to be a tsundere... there's your answer.

Kinny Riddle

2007-10-24, 21:33

Excuse me, but have we seen any specific scenes in the anime so far that indicates Kyou has feelings for Tomoya? I believe we need to address that que3stion before going on to whether Kyou's behavior is tsun or not.

As you said, you're basing it on what you've seen SO FAR from the anime. I base my deductions from her story in the game, from which the anime is based on. You can't just say she isn't tsundere because she hasn't showed any such traits in the anime yet even when she has in the game.

Speaking of which, I need to get back on helping out on the translation of it.

Kyou is a always in a happy-go-around mood. The only time she was in a bad mood was in the rain. (game) Just because she acts violent doesn't mean she is in a bad mood. And Kyou wasn't embarrassed to say her feelings, but she is

And who said anything about "tsun" only applying in occasions when the character is "being in a bad temper/mood"? For you detractors, your definitions of "tsun" and "dere" are probably way too narrow. Know that tsunderes comes in different forms and shapes. You cannot just say "all cats are white, so that is not a cat because it's black".

I go by the more flexible definition: "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". It can be expressed physically or emotionally. "Cold" can mean being violent, or rude (in a cheerful or menacing way). "Warm" can mean feeling insecure, embarrassed. and any of the more "girly" traits. And it can also apply on RL ladies, like Vexx's wife, for example.

ElementSun

2007-10-24, 21:45

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-25, 01:09

As you said, you're basing it on what you've seen SO FAR from the anime. I base my deductions from her story in the game, from which the anime is based on. You can't just say she isn't tsundere because she hasn't showed any such traits in the anime yet even when she has in the game.

I'm keeping the game and anime seperate, for the benefit of the people who haven't played the game.

iamandragon

2007-10-25, 07:33

When she kicked Sunohara for commenting about what he saw. It's a simple deredere reaction where she acts really violent. She got embrassed that Tomoya might notice what he just said and so she switched the attention to Sunohara getting a massive damage kick that sent him off to lala land. That's deredere to you with a mixture of hostility.
I would beat ANYONE into a state of unconcious if they sees my underwear. Maybe it's okay for westerns to have their underwear seen, but definitely not us easterns.

[/quote]So her bad temper/mood (tsuntsun) which also implies being wild isn't supposed to be tsuntsun? Like I said that kind of personality is what makes a tsun. Being bad tempered/mood to the point they become a bit wild or angry. Anyway, Tsuntsun doesn't imply bad mood as in, suffering because something happened. When she was in the rain, that wasn't what tsuntsun means. That interpretation of yours about bad mood is "not in good mood, disheartened" instead of being in a bad temper.[/quote]
I repeat, Kyou was never in a bad mood. Her wild acts are mainly her way to express friendliness, like the guys do.

Refer to the "bi" scene and to the Botan scene, that's a tsuntsun scenario or do you think she's not in bad temper/mood there? Anyway, the only deredere scenario I cought was *read the first quote above*, although, she might have been in deredere mode about the "bi" thing, I didn't notice so I'm not sure...
Again, a realistic reaction. Normal girls don't want to be called a lesbian or bisexual. My 'I'm bi for Kyou' statement was merely a joke, but girls don't want their sex direction to be mistakened because it is disgusting. Would you be happy if someone you know announces to the public that you are gay? (assuming you are straight)

A very important thing to remember, being tsundere doesn't always mean, the tsundere character has to be in love, there are tsundere who are not in love with the main character. Take for example what I said before, Asuka is tsuntsun towards Shinji but deredere towards Kaji, Kagurazaka Azuna is tsuntsun towards Negi but deredere towards Takahata, well, she can be deredere towards Negi sometimes too. Hiiragi Kagami is tsuntsun towards Konata and also deredere towards her (she's not in love with her though). As for Kyou, she is tsuntsun towards Sunohara and Tomoya but becomes deredere when she's in an unfavorable position (it doesn't mean you can't be in deredere mode if you're not in love). Kyou's personality is typically ill-natured/wild/hot-tempered (tsun), but she gets embarrassed easily (dere). And that's one of the traits of a tsundere.
Still trying to reference the Botan scene? Normal reaction.
Besides, no one likes Sunohara. Or are you trying to say the rugby team are tsuntsun towards Sunohara and deredere when with themselves?

Remember how Shiraishi got stumped when Akira asked him "what is she if she's not a tsundere" after butting in with "it's too early to decide that."? He couldn't answer right because he's following the traditional tsundere definition where character development is the main focus. Kagami isn't a developing character, she stayed the same all throughout the show but they considered her tsundere because of her usually hot-tempered (tsun) but easily embarrassed (dere) when dealing with Konata personality.
Let's stop referencing other anime shall we...and like everyone else said: Akira and Kyou are different. It's pointless to compare each other unless you find a character identical to Kyou.

The script writer also never intended for Kyou to be a tsundere... there's your answer.
Exactly. And therefore the chance of her being a tsundere is low.

I go by the more flexible definition: "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". It can be expressed physically or emotionally. "Cold" can mean being violent, or rude (in a cheerful or menacing way). "Warm" can mean feeling insecure, embarrassed. and any of the more "girly" traits. And it can also apply on RL ladies, like Vexx's wife, for example.
Her acts of violence a of the 'warm' type of violence. She's beating up Sunohara because she cares for Botan, not that she is angry of Sunohara. (not like she doesn't dislike him anyways) The last kick of hers is of normal reaction. Her acts of trying to strangle Tomoya is because she cares for her reputation(a normal reaction). Now, bring in more examples of Kyou being tsun?

Ascaloth

2007-10-25, 08:55

Gosh, this is going a bit overboard.

Can we at least wait to see a bit more of Kyou first, before continuing this "discussion"? :eyespin:

Right now, I personally am not going to move one way or the other, until her part in the story is played out at least.

Kinny Riddle

2007-10-25, 09:52

Her acts of violence a of the 'warm' type of violence. She's beating up Sunohara because she cares for Botan, not that she is angry of Sunohara. (not like she doesn't dislike him anyways) The last kick of hers is of normal reaction. Her acts of trying to strangle Tomoya is because she cares for her reputation(a normal reaction). Now, bring in more examples of Kyou being tsun?

I still don't understand how that isn't a kind of "tsun" for you. She can be "tsun" to anyone and "dere" to anyone. Just because that action is realistic and normal does not mean it's not "tsun".

I'm keeping the game and anime seperate, for the benefit of the people who haven't played the game.

Fair enough. But do you think the writers of the anime wouldn't take game Kyou's personality into consideration? Anime Kyou has the same personality as the game Kyou and is basically the same character.

Or are you suggesting Kyo-Ani's Kyou is a brand new character altogether? Why would they do such a thing when they aim to be as faithful to the original as possible, as they have done with past Key games?

dgreater1

2007-10-25, 10:33

I would beat ANYONE into a state of unconcious if they sees my underwear. Maybe it's okay for westerns to have their underwear seen, but definitely not us easterns.

First of all, Kyou was in bad temper there because she thought they're doing something bad to Botan. You would beat ANYONE into a state of unconcious if they sees your underwear because you got into a bad temper. In Kyou's case, she got embarrassed first and tries to hide the fact by being hostile again (tsuntsun) to Sunohara. Like I said, being tsuntsun is being in bad temper, it's about personality. If Sunohara said that to Furukawa, she would only get embarrassed but not in a bad temper. See the difference between a deredere Furukawa and a tsundere Kyou?

I repeat, Kyou was never in a bad mood. Her wild acts are mainly her way to express friendliness, like the guys do.

Sweatdrops... she was never? Then are you telling me her anger (which is a form of tsun) about the "bi" and mistakenly thought that Sunohara and Tomoya were doing something to Botan isn't being hot tempered?

Again, a realistic reaction. Normal girls don't want to be called a lesbian or bisexual. My 'I'm bi for Kyou' statement was merely a joke, but girls don't want their sex direction to be mistakened because it is disgusting. Would you be happy if someone you know announces to the public that you are gay? (assuming you are straight)

Again, we're not talking about reaction here, but personality that Kyou has. Try doing the same stuff with the other girls, you would get a different reaction. Meaning, try imagining a scenario where it's not Kyou who's Tomoya is referring to. For example, a very Boke Kotomi. Do you think Kotomi would react like that? She would probably just go, "???" and then "Nandeyanen!"... She probably wouldn't even think it's an insult. Again, a very big difference in personality.

Still trying to reference the Botan scene? Normal reaction.
Besides, no one likes Sunohara. Or are you trying to say the rugby team are tsuntsun towards Sunohara and deredere when with themselves?

You're trying to base tsundere for how they react but what you don't understand is being a tsundere is being in a personality that goes tsuntsun and deredere. Most people doesn't like Sunohara but are you forgetting about Furukawa or Yukine or Mei as well? Not the kind of love you're thinking about though. And despite it's not subtle, Tomoya do care about Sunohara.

Q: Am I trying trying to say that the Rugby is tsuntsun towards Sunohara?
A: 100000% Sure!

Q: Are they deredere towards themselve?
A: How would I know? Did they even show they're deredere in the game and in the show? All they did were show their tsuntsun (bad temper/frustration/etc.) side towards Sunohara.

Let's stop referencing other anime shall we...and like everyone else said: Akira and Kyou are different. It's pointless to compare each other unless you find a character identical to Kyou.

Who are you telling I'm comparing Akira and Kyou? Akira is purely tsuntsun and not deredere at all, I'm comparing Kyou to Kagami if that's what you want to know.

Exactly. And therefore the chance of her being a tsundere is low.

Not exactly. He intended for her not to be tsundere, but the due to her personality going on like that, it didn't happen.

Her acts of violence is of the 'warm' type of violence. She's beating up Sunohara because she cares for Botan, not that she is angry of Sunohara. (not like she doesn't dislike him anyways) The last kick of hers is of normal reaction. Her acts of trying to strangle Tomoya is because she cares for her reputation(a normal reaction). Now, bring in more examples of Kyou being tsun?

If you're trying to put it like that, then how about this as a different approach of her being a tsundere. Her acts of violence (tsuntsun) is to protect Botan, she got hot-tempered (not that angry) cause she thought they're doing something to her pet.

Her acts of trying to strangle Tomoya is because she cares for her reputation(a normal tsundere reaction). Why? She's embarrassed or in a hot-temper (if you don't want to use a strong word like angry) about it. A person who's not a tsundere wouldn't react like Kyou. Do you understand now?

Now, bring in more examples of Kyou being tsun? If you don't see most of her tsun scene in the anime, then what's your definition of tsun? You're explaining why that kind of her reaction is normal, and not why she is not a tsun. Being a tsun doesn't mean reacting to something. It has a more deeper meaning. And one of the meaning is being a bad/hot-tempered person or aloof or whatever. I wouldn't say that to Kyou because she might go in tsun mode and pummel me.

I still don't understand how that isn't a kind of "tsun" for you. She can be "tsun" to anyone and "dere" to anyone. Just because that action is realistic and normal does not mean it's not "tsun".

You always makes it more simple and yet, they just don't get it :heh:

We already defined Kyou as a tsuntsun type because of the fact that she's a hot-tempered/wild/easily ticked off/etc. etc. person.
We already defined Kyou as a deredere as well because despite having a tsuntsun side, she do easily gets embarrassed and warmhearted and etc. etc.

You get what we mean? Tsundere is about personality, be it whole or developing.

You say it's a normal reaction (a normal reaction to you but not to everyone), but that's one of the reason why she became a tsun and at the same time tsundere in the first place, we haven't seen much of her deredere side as of yet except for the Botan scene though.

Fair enough. But do you think the writers of the anime wouldn't take game Kyou's personality into consideration? Anime Kyou has the same personality as the game Kyou and is basically the same character.

Or are you suggesting Kyo-Ani's Kyou is a brand new character alt

I wonder what would the tsundere fans think about this idea... Well, I'm not really into tsundere, I'm more into Boke types and Normal types! Let Kotomi out of the library already!

eMpTy265

2007-10-25, 10:36

dgreater1

2007-10-25, 10:58

Just a few questions regarding the tsundere :

1.) Where would we draw the line between acting 'being friendly in a boyish way' and 'tsun'?

2.) Suppose Kyou was a guy (refrains from using a 'bi' joke), would we still use tsundere to refer to her personality? (compared to... say Kyon in SHnY, which I've heard people referring to him as such)

1) Tsuntsun is a multi-term that can be use to describe personality. Don't really know if that's the same as being friendly in a boyish way. But for what I know, it's not describe like that.

2a) Tsundere is a Japanese word describes a girl with a bad attitude (tsuntsun) but gradually develops into a shy. loving, adorable, etc. etc. person (deredere), not eliminating her tsun personality though (traditional definition). See Shana, Sawatari Makoto, Suiseiki, Tohsaka Rin, Akane Tendo, Nadia (Fushigi no Umi no Nadia), etc. It's about character development

2b) Tsundere is a Japanese word that describes a girl with a personality of being a tsuntsun and a deredere above most of her personality (modern definition). See Kagami, Anya, Asuna Kagurazaka, Asuka, Ayu (or was it Mayu from Rumbling Hearts?) etc. etc. It's about the personality as a whole

2c) Kyon is tsun because he's almost always in bad mood due to Haruhi but he's not supposed to be called a tsundere because that would make him look like a gay XD) Imagine him, blushing trying to talk his way out. :heh:

iamandragon

2007-10-25, 11:57

Just a few questions regarding the tsundere :

1.) Where would we draw the line between acting 'being friendly in a boyish way' and 'tsun'?

Because beating other's up is the boy's way of showing friendliness, so it's not tsun but dere actually for boys.

dgreater1, if you really want to use examples, tell me: is Nagisa a tsundere?

dgreater1

2007-10-25, 12:54

Because beating other's up is the boy's way of showing friendliness, so it's not tsun but dere actually for boys.

dgreater1, if you really want to use examples, tell me: is Nagisa a tsundere?

Sheesh... at this rate, Tomoyo and EVEN Nagisa will be considered as Tsundere if they are considered like it because of Tomoya..."
Erm... and why in the world did they become tsun? They weren't even close to tsun to begin with. And I didn't say having mood swing is tsundere but rather having a mood that swings from tsuntsun to deredere is tsundere.

Nagisa isn't a tsundere, didn't you see my reply before? She doesn't have the most important aspect of tsundere, and that is "tsun" short for "tsuntsun" which is word usually used to describe personality.

As far as I can see, you're definition of tsun in tsundere is a bit wrong because you're applying something else when it should only be describing personality.

Did Nagisa start with a hot-tempered personality? (can be considered wild, a form of tsun) (traditional definition) Is she someone who always becomes irritated? (a form of tsun) (modern definition) Not, right? She's just a gentle and loving girl who can also get embarrassed sometimes.

A simple explanation...

Traditional Tsundere == Tsuntsun ----> Deredere (It means, from being someone who has a bad attitude to someone loving)
Modern Tsundere == Tsuntsun+Deredere (It means someone who has a bad attitude but really weak/lovable/moonstruck/etc. inside) and the tsuntsun part is more obvious than the deredere part.

Anyway, a much more easier to understand term for tsuntsun is "hot headed" and "softhearted" for deredere. But anyway, almost every moe girls are deredere as well... if not, all...

Anymore question?

Skyfall

2007-10-25, 14:55

We already defined Kyou as a tsuntsun type because of the fact that she's a hot-tempered/wild/easily ticked off/etc. etc. person.

That is hardly a reason to call anyone a tsundere. While these are indeed traits possessed by most(all?) tsunderes, not everyone possessing these traits is a tsundere though. Labeling her as such simply because of it is a superficial generalization.

As far as I can see, you're definition of tsun in tsundere is a bit wrong because you're applying something else when it should only be describing personality.

Tsundere isn't a 'personality' per se to begin with, it is a trait. Anyways, you seem to claim that if a person tends to act in a hot headed manner it makes them a tsundere, which i absolutely can't agree with.

At any rate, this conversation indeed seems to be less and less related to Kyou and more to what the heck we consider to be tsundere in first place, so perhaps it is indeed worth considering moving that discussion to the tsundere (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=34134) thread in General anime.

iamandragon

2007-10-25, 17:23

It's not about how we consider what is to be tsundere, but we're debating weather Kyou is acting tsun or friendly.

Every single person out there does show manners of dislike to another person they dislike, and vice versa for those they like, but you don't call everybody a 'tsundere' right? When talking about tsun and dere, they have to be acting towards the same person. Kyou has never, ever acted tsun towards Tomoya and dere towards Sunohara (apart from the final choice in her route). Therefore, Kyou is consistent in terms of mood. And thus, Kyou is not a tsundere because she doesn't exhibit the triats of a tsundere where they have a mood swing between 'tsun' and 'dere' towards one single character.

On the contary, if we use your theory that Kyou is tsundere because she acts 'tsun' towards Sunohara and 'dere' towards Tomoya, then we can have to be consistent and see that Nagisa is a tsundere because she is always ignoring Sunohara and paying attention to Tomoya, but now you say she is not a tsundere--how can you justify that then?

(Note: I do not think Nagisa is a tsundere because she is consistent in her mood.)

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-25, 17:24

Fair enough. But do you think the writers of the anime wouldn't take game Kyou's personality into consideration? Anime Kyou has the same personality as the game Kyou and is basically the same character.

Or are you suggesting Kyo-Ani's Kyou is a brand new character altogether? Why would they do such a thing when they aim to be as faithful to the original as possible, as they have done with past Key games?

We'll have to see, for I'm not sure whether they'll animate the arcs seperately or merge some of them, meaning that the game aspect of a character can be weakened in the anime.

iamandragon

2007-10-25, 17:37

There is no particular need to to merge the routes forcefully, as it is possible that every single get a show in Nagisa's route even in the game. But some classic moments will need a bit of work to fit in the show (like Fuko's final moment)

It's funny seeing that Kyou's thread is the longest threat, despite she is not the no.1 popular amongst the players. (The most popular is Tomoyo, IIRC)

dgreater1

2007-10-25, 20:34

That is hardly a reason to call anyone a tsundere. While these are indeed traits possessed by most(all?) tsunderes, not everyone possessing these traits is a tsundere though. Labeling her as such simply because of it is a superficial generalization.

Sigh... Did I say being a tsun is tsundere? Didn't you see my reply towards iamadragon saying "Who are you telling I'm comparing Akira and Kyou? Akira is purely tsuntsun and not deredere at all, I'm comparing Kyou to Kagami if that's what you want to know." And by the way, all tsundere's are Tsun (have the tsuntsun side) if they're not tsun they wouldn't be tsundere. But anyway, I didn't say all tsundere's are tsun (as in just tsun). It's like this phrase, God is Lord but Lord is not God.

Tsundere isn't a 'personality' per se to begin with, it is a trait. Anyways, you seem to claim that if a person tends to act in a hot headed manner it makes them a tsundere, which i absolutely can't agree with.

You mustn't agree if someone told you acting tsuntsun is a tsundere because you have to make sure that she's deredere as well.

And I never claimed anything about being a tsun is being a tsundere. Read above quote.

But anyway, if you're talking about this message "You say it's a normal reaction (a normal reaction to you but not to everyone), but that's one of the reason why she became a tsun and at the same time tsundere in the first place, we haven't seen much of her deredere side as of yet except for the Botan scene though."

What I mean there is:

1) She's a tsun because she's a hot-headed hard to deal with person.
2) She's a tsundere because despite she's a hot-headed (tsun) hard to deal with person, she is a shy/kind/moonstruck/caring-to-her-sister/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it (dere) person in the inside.

Actually, most of that girls that lands only on the tsun side are either enemies or just plain crazy hot-headed (a very simple example is Akira and Asuzagawa Yukino of Yakitate Japan).

If you don't want to use that term for Kyou, then you what would Kagami be? She's almost the same as Kyou, a head-headed but really caring person. Kyou is hot-headed the same as Kagami, Kyou is caring and she also gets embarrassed easily, the same as Kagami.

It's not about how we consider what is to be tsundere, but we're debating weather Kyou is acting tsun or friendly.

Thats is why I can help but wonder why can't you see her hot-headed side which is already evident all throughout the three episode. Her first appearance already showed her hot-headed attitude, in a hostile way though.

When talking about tsun and dere, they have to be acting towards the same person. Kyou has never, ever acted tsun towards Tomoya and dere towards Sunohara (apart from the final choice in her route). Therefore, Kyou is consistent in terms of mood. And thus, Kyou is not a tsundere because she doesn't exhibit the triats of a tsundere where they have a mood swing between 'tsun' and 'dere' towards one single character.

Nope, they don't need to act towards the same person. And Kyou has never acted hotheaded towards Tomoya in the game? She's almost always hotheaded when she's talking to Tomoya which makes me wonder again why you think that isn't what being hotheaded means. If most of her angry/fierce/hot-tempered actions towards Tomoya isn't because she's being hotheaded, then what is hotheaded to you? Anyway, you're adding another unnecessary reason (talking about acting towards the same person). I thought the wiki has explained it too well...

On the contary, if we use your theory that Kyou is tsundere because she acts 'tsun' towards Sunohara and 'dere' towards Tomoya, then we can have to be consistent and see that Nagisa is a tsundere because she is always ignoring Sunohara and paying attention to Tomoya, but now you say she is not a tsundere--how can you justify that then?

Erm... excuse me... who gave you an idea that ignoring someone is being a tsun? Like I said, being tsun is being or acting hotheaded. Think about all the tsundere you can think of then think about the most obvious personality they share, if you don't want to, then think about all the tsundere you know and compare it to a mildly angry drunk (don't compare them to a totally angry drunk person since those kinds will hurt people). That is what being a hotheaded person is. But like I also said before, there are tsundere that are mildly tsun, take for example the sickly girl from Hanbun no Tsuki...

mataray = hotheaded/hotblooded = tsuntsun (super easy term for Filipino to understand :heh:)

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-25, 21:04

2) She's a tsundere because despite she's a hot-headed (tsun) hard to deal with person, she is a shy/kind/moonstruck/caring-to-her-sister/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it (dere) person in the inside.

I think I finally got your mind: You expanded the original application of the term to anyone who acts tough but is also soft inside.

I have to say that I disagree with having terms used so broadly :(

Ascaloth

2007-10-25, 21:12

I think I finally got your mind: You expanded the original application of the term to anyone who acts tough but is also soft inside.

I have to say that I disagree with having terms used so broadly :(

And so we go back to the eternal battle between the Shiraishi-ist school and the Modern School of Tsundere Studies. :eyespin:

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-25, 21:17

And so we go back to the eternal battle between the Shiraishi-ist school and the Modern School of Tsundere Studies. :eyespin:

No, dgreater1's definition goes beyond the Modern School: it's bascially applying cubism everywhere in real life.

dgreater1

2007-10-25, 22:18

No, dgreater1's definition goes beyond the Modern School: it's bascially applying cubism everywhere in real life.

I didn't go beyond the definition of the Modern definition, that is just one of the definition. Anyway, the definition you have about tsuntsun and deredere is narrow and like Kinny Riddle has been saying all this time:
I go by the more flexible definition: "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". It can be expressed physically or emotionally. "Cold" can mean being violent, or rude (in a cheerful or menacing way). "Warm" can mean feeling insecure, embarrassed. and any of the more "girly" traits. And it can also apply on RL ladies, like Vexx's wife, for example.

iamandragon

2007-10-26, 04:39

Would you please stop using characters outside of CLANNAD for reference? For one thing I don't watch as much anime as you otakus, so don't assume I know about the other characters about other series. All I'm here to debate is weather Kyou is a tsundere or not, and I'm standing firm by saying Kyou is never tsun, her hot-headed moments are actually her way of showing love/friendliness

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle
I go by the more flexible definition: "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". It can be expressed physically or emotionally. "Cold" can mean being violent, or rude (in a cheerful or menacing way). "Warm" can mean feeling insecure, embarrassed. and any of the more "girly" traits. And it can also apply on RL ladies, like Vexx's wife, for example.
Erm... excuse me... who gave you an idea that ignoring someone is being a tsun?

There you go. Or are you saying ignoring someone is not cold, but very warm? Tomoyo is a tsundere character because she acted cold towards Tomoya in the beginning as well and fell in love with him later on.

Thats is why I can help but wonder why can't you see her hot-headed side which is already evident all throughout the three episode. Her first appearance already showed her hot-headed attitude, in a hostile way though.
Her violent acts are all acts of friendliness, not being hostile. For example, take her first appearance where Ryou was doing a fortune tell with Tomoya. She was attacking Tomoya because she thought Tomoya was bullying Ryou. The main objective of the attack was because she was trying to protect her sister not assault Tomoya.

Nope, they don't need to act towards the same person. And Kyou has never acted hotheaded towards Tomoya in the game? She's almost always hotheaded when she's talking to Tomoya which makes me wonder again why you think that isn't what being hotheaded means. If most of her angry/fierce/hot-tempered actions towards Tomoya isn't because she's being hotheaded, then what is hotheaded to you? Anyway, you're adding another unnecessary reason (talking about acting towards the same person). I thought the wiki has explained it too well...
Well if they don't need to act towards the same person then things won't work! Or are you saying Misae is a tsundere because she is beating the rugby team up and being kind to Tomoya? And Fuko is a tsundere because he beats up Sunohara up but not Tomoya? Or if we are in an anime where there are two fractions fighting each other, then basically everyone is a tsundere because they're acting tsun towards the enemies and dere to some of their comrades! We can't have that, right?

And therefore, when looking at the tsun and dere moments of Kyou we have to make sure we are looking at the same person. It's like doing a scientific experiment. We keep every factor constant and monitor two changing factor. For Kyou's case, the changing factor is the situation and her mood.

dgreater1

2007-10-26, 05:59

Just read aboveI really give up... girls really don't budge when they stick firm to their opinion... anyway, if you don't want to call her tsundere, then don't... you're trying to narrow down your definition of tsundere and I can feel your message having a tsuntsun feeling to it now so I'll let it go.

But anyway you did say, "her hot-headed moments are actually her way of showing love/friendliness"... that's what being a tsuntsun person means... being in a hot-headed moments... and the bolded italic one is what you call being a deredere... so it means, you're contradicting yourself...

Klashikari

2007-10-26, 06:06

I really give up... girls really don't budge when they stick firm to their opinion... anyway, if you don't want to call her tsundere, then don't... you're trying to narrow down your definition of tsundere and I can feel your message have a tsuntsun feeling to it now so I'll let it go.
Err... don't start generalizing people who just diverge with your opinion... not like the gender has anything to do with debate and opinion, isn't it? ^^'

And seriously, I don't see any hostility and such, but meh.

But anyway you did say, "her hot-headed moments are actually her way of showing love/friendliness"... that's what being a tsuntsun person means... being in a hot-headed moments... and the bolded italic one is what you call being a deredere... so it means, you're contradicting yourself...No, that's not what iamandragon implied. What she said is the fact that the "hot headed moments" are mistaken as tsuntsun, while it is just some friendship (which isn't always synonym of deredere). That's basically why people are debating on Kyou, whatever her aggressivity is tsun counted for tsundere or not.
In fact, the aggressivity is a MANNER of speech, which doesn't change the meaning of it.

If you are aggressive or calm, the impatc might change, but the message is still the same. That's why iamandragon made an emphasis on "friendliness". Because being aggressive doesn't mean it is an act of coldness or whatever.
The way how Kyou expresses herself is indeed wild, but her demeanor is NOT. If someone yells "i love you" or mutters it, it is still the same. Granted, that doesn't change one's feelings, just with the way how it was done.
The "purpose" of being wild (so being tsuntsun for whatever reason) is not the same than being it for the hell of it. Acting like this to express themself is then the personality, not a tsundere trait.

As explained by Skyfall already, tsundere is a type, a category of character, not a personality as a whole, otherwise, "tsundere" would be generic (which they are already) to the point they are acting all the same, which is obviousl not the case if we take for example, Kugimiya Rie loli tsundere trio (though nagi is still debatable). Right then, you can tell Shana and Louise are diametrally different in their tsundere-ism. That proves tsundere is rather a trait of personality, not the personality as a whole.
Thus, having some personality trait doesn't encage you into a stereotype already. that's the point. as result, being hotheaded isn't a synonym of being tsun, because the personality can be different depending on the characters. Or if you prefer, you already said "being tsun doesn't mean the character is tsundere". That's the same principle: being wild doesn't mean it is tsun.

That's why i don't see the definition as "narrow", but rather yours (as well as kinny's) are too vague. Why? because that means that any "cold" behaviour, being negative or not, affection or aversion is tsuntsun... therefor, that means that almost every character are tsundere as result.
With such vague definition, we can even claim Fuko is tsundere, or Nagisa... (that's like pretending Rena is tsundere because she has mood swing... same goes for Mion and Satoko who are NOT tsundere, because they aren't tsun to begin with...)

the definition is neutral (as i already quoted it), but it appears it is just like "moe", and people are just taking it in their view, and not exactly how "set in stone" the definition is already. Quite big debate heh...

Again, you are not explaining how you can actually claim Kyou has shown deredere, and "being embarassed by a pantsu shot" is hardly deredere.
Same goes what we saw in episode 4.

Ascaloth

2007-10-26, 06:13

I personally don't know about Kyou, but I theorize that iamandragon herself IS a tsundere. Of course, so far all we've seen is the tsun-tsun side of her, but maybe there's a dere-dere side to her that we haven't seen yet. :naughty: (J/K)

Joking aside, it's almost the same case with Kyou. Maybe what we see is the tsun side of her, maybe it's not, but we still can't say whether she is a tsundere for certain until when (of if) she shows a more obvious dere-dere side of her.

Klashikari

2007-10-26, 06:22

I personally don't know about Kyou, but I theorize that iamandragon herself IS a tsundere. Of course, so far all we've seen is the tsun-tsun side of her, but maybe there's a dere-dere side to her that we haven't seen yet. :naughty: (J/K)
Maybe it is already here deredere? :heh: (j/k... except if she is a kyou MKII XD)

Joking aside, it's almost the same case with Kyou. Maybe what we see is the tsun side of her, maybe it's not, but we still can't say whether she is a tsundere for certain until when (of if) she shows a more obvious dere-dere side of her.
Exactly, that is probably the core issue, as it is remotely not possible to figure it as nothing much happened, and since the show will probably shaft Kyou and Tomoyo routes, we might not see completely how she is.
However, if her attitude is constant, and she doesn't show a true deredere, that completely proves she is not.
As far as we can see, since the debate still goes on... we gotta need a bulletproof detail which will either confirm she is or not :heh:

dgreater1

2007-10-26, 06:53

No, that's not what iamandragon implied. What she said is the fact that the "hot headed moments" are mistaken as tsuntsun, while it is just some friendship (which isn't always synonym of deredere). That's basically why people are debating on Kyou, whatever her aggressivity is tsun counted for tsundere or not.

I'm going to ask you a simple question... is Kyou, a person with a quick temper or not? If you answer yes, you'll be admitting she's a tsuntsun. If you answer no, I'll be stumped as to why you think she's not.

Again, you are not explaining how you can actually claim Kyou has shown deredere, and "being embarassed by a pantsu shot" is hardly deredere.

I didn't? Actually, I don't know how many times I've explained. Anyway, what does Kyou's kind/caring/moonstruck/dazed/confused/etc. personality means? I'm leaving the deredere situation about the pantsu out because you don't want to accept it as a deredere (slightly dazed on that occassion) situation. Oh... I'm being sarcastic... Anyway, she only showed it just once but, that's already a proof of a deredere side of her. Now, if we can only see them got lock up in a dark room... :heh:

But anyway, have you read my a little bit of my explanation here? http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1219688&postcount=84

one is character development (Shiraishist or traditional or whatever), the other one is personality (Modernist)

Klashikari

2007-10-26, 07:19

I'm going to ask you a simple question... is Kyou, a person with a quick temper or not? If you answer yes, you'll be admitting she's a tsuntsun. If you answer no, I'll be stumped as to why you think she's not.
Quick temper? relative (i know it is an evasive answer, but it is not possible to claim it). Is she easily aroused by anger? Impossible to tell regarding the situations seen, as most people would actually not be pleased with what Tomoya and Youhei did.
That said, her "true" anger happened only twice, and I can't even see her attempt to protect Botan as "result of quick tempered". Just like for Ryou, it was rather her way to protect botan quickly, whatever it is happening. Thus, not really quick tempered, but rather reckless. (so, being headstrong/harsh)
What I see her, it is aggressivity, in term of assertive behaviour.

I didn't? Actually, I don't know how many times I've explained. Anyway, what does Kyou's kind/caring/moonstruck/dazed/confused/etc. personality means? I'm leaving the deredere situation about the pantsu out because you don't want to accept it as a deredere (slightly dazed on that occassion) situation. Oh... I'm being sarcastic...I'm not trying to play with anyone's nerve, but no, you didn't explain in WHAT the "blushing embarassement" of the pantsu scene is a deredere. This behaviour happens 99% of the time in anime, and I don't think any girl would be proud of it.
Seriously speaking, the embarassement of such silly situation is NOT a proof of a peculiar soft side etc, more likely a self awareness about such embarassing situation. That doesn't mean Kyou doesn't have a kind side but the scene itself doesn't show anything remotely similar of being dazed and such. Otherwise, almost every female character are deredere, that's quite far fetched.

*sigh* the definition of tsundere doesn't even matter now, it is rather up to people to consider if X is tsun and Y moment was dere, and do the math.
As far as we can see with this circling debate, no one can demonstrate how it is clearly tsuntsun/deredere to end it, since both (well more like 3 factions instead) are not agreeing. So, probably more time required huh?

Skyfall

2007-10-26, 07:43

You are saying our definition is a narrow one, while yours is so broad it would place the vast majority of people under tsundere.

I'm going to ask you a simple question... is Kyou, a person with a quick temper or not? If you answer yes, you'll be admitting she's a tsuntsun. If you answer no, I'll be stumped as to why you think she's not.

How does having a quick temper translates to being tsun :eyebrow: Again - every astronaut is a man, not every man is an astronaut. While having a short temper is traditional to tsunderes, having a short temper does not a tsundere make. You are trying to forge an absolute relation between two characteristics when they are not necessarily related.

I didn't? Actually, I don't know how many times I've explained. Anyway, what does Kyou's kind/caring/moonstruck/dazed/confused/etc. personality means? I'm leaving the deredere situation about the pantsu out because you don't want to accept it as a deredere (slightly dazed on that occassion) situation. Oh... I'm being sarcastic... Anyway, she only showed it just once but, that's already a proof of a deredere side of her. Now, if we can only see them got lock up in a dark room... :heh:

And how does person getting embarrassed over something translates to deredere? Just like with previous, the two are not necessarily related, and once again you are applying a generalization. There are more ways besides being embarrassed to make for a dere mood, and being embarrassed is not exclusively an indicator of dere, even if it is often used that way.

You are using a generalized and out of context method here to determine whether Kyou is a tsundere or not.
Brash and violent (typical tsundere quality) - check.
Gets embarrassed over something - (typical tsundere quality) - check.
Therefore, she must be tsundere.

Sorry, but no - while Kyou indeed possesses a lot of qualities tsunderes usually do, her general behavior and mindset do not place her under this label.

dgreater1

2007-10-26, 08:18

I'm not trying to play with anyone's nerve, but no, you didn't explain in WHAT the "blushing embarassement" of the pantsu scene is a deredere. This behaviour happens 99% of the time in anime, and I don't think any girl would be proud of it.
Seriously speaking, the embarassement of such silly situation is NOT a proof of a peculiar soft side etc, more likely a self awareness about such embarassing situation. That doesn't mean Kyou doesn't have a kind side but the scene itself doesn't show anything remotely similar of being dazed and such. Otherwise, almost every female character are deredere, that's quite far fetched.

Read the last part, http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1219876&postcount=86, erm... not the "Anymore question?" but anyway, I didn't say almost every female character are deredere but almost all the moe girls, if not all. Being tsundere means your tsuntsun and deredere is more obvious than your other personality (I'm a modernist). So it's like this, if you're a typical moe type character and you have a tsuntsun side, I'll consider you a tsundere.

*sigh* the definition of tsundere doesn't even matter now, it is rather up to people to consider if X is tsun and Y moment was dere, and do the math.

I didn't say that deredere is about moments. It's her deredere personality that makes the moment.

How does having a quick temper translates to being tsun

Look at the Japanese dictionary and broaden its meaning.

While having a short temper is traditional to tsunderes, having a short temper does not a tsundere make.

You didn't read my previous message as well, having a short temper doesn't make you a tsundere, but it makes you a tsun but having a short temper (tsun) might make you a tsundere if you have the deredere traits (if those two are the most obvious part of that character).

And how does person getting embarrassed over something translates to deredere? Just like with previous, the two are not necessarily related, and once again you are applying a generalization. There are more ways besides being embarrassed to make for a dere mood, and being embarrassed is not exclusively an indicator of dere, even if it is often used that way.

Getting embarrassed is a part of having a deredere personality. And I didn't narrow my definition to just be embarrassed to have a deredere mood, I did say, getting embarrassed/loving/caring/shy/adorable/etc. is in the side of being a deredere. I always put etc. because deredere isn't just one definition.

You are using a generalized and out of context method here to determine whether Kyou is a tsundere or not.
Brash and violent (typical tsundere quality) - check.
Gets embarrassed over something - (typical tsundere quality) - check.
Therefore, she must be tsundere.

Sorry, but no - while Kyou indeed possesses a lot of qualities tsunderes usually do, her general behavior and mindset do not place her under this label.

That's correct, she possesses those qualities (personalities) and not just possess it, it's her most obvious personality that's why she became a tsundere. Her general behavior and mindset is what makes her a tsundere. Sigh... we're like magnets here, repelling each other... :heh:

As far as we can see with this circling debate, no one can demonstrate how it is clearly tsuntsun/deredere to end it, since both (well more like 3 factions instead) are not agreeing. So, probably more time required huh?

We're not really going to understand each other because we're like, talking in two different languages without knowing each other's language, so anyway, this tsundere thing is getting quite long so I think we should just stop it right here. The only thing that would weigh it is a pole which I believe wouldn't matter because the losing team would only go, "It's just diverging opinions it doesn't matter." :heh:

Skyfall

2007-10-26, 09:01

Ok, i guess we will just have to agree to disagree it seems :) I am willing to drop the debate ... not like we are getting anywhere :)

DragoonKain3

2007-10-26, 12:40

Just going to put my 2 cents...

The typical tsundere (as opposed to the 'classical' one, which I'll elaborate more on later, this post is going to be long) for me to qualify as one, a character must possess a number of things...

1) a tsuntsun side - very harsh in a way, through physical, verbal, or other means

2) a deredere side - some 'happy' (need to think up of a better word) feelings towards a particular character or item that they'd rather keep secret.

3) both tsuntsun and deredere must be both directed at the same person. Reason why is because if either are directed to different people, then it just means that character has different feelings towards different people.

4) tsuntsun comes out because of the need to hide deredere. This line is needed because if the cause of the tsuntsun is not because they want to hide deredere, then they might have a legitimate reason for acting tsuntsun.

5) part 4 must come out at least occasionally. This line is needed otherwise if they exhibited tsundere qualities once in a blue moon, I can't classify them as a tsundere

Let's do an easy one, take Kagami for example.
1) tsutsun = check
2) deredere = check
3) both directed at Konata? check
4) Lots of examples of this, though the most obvious one is she acts as though she's okay being in a different class when she really wants to be with the other three
5) Almost every episode? lol

Let's do another easy one, take your typical Kugimiya tsundere, like I dunno, say Louise.
1) tsuntsun = hell yeah, s&M level to boot
2) deredere = love potion, anyone? XD
3) Saitou gets the extremes of both, don't he?
4) Don't you notice Louise overdoes her S&M whenever she's jealous of Saitou spending time with a girl?
5) Let's just say it's just too damn much

Some examples who I don't consider typical tsundere

Minami Kana of this season's Minami-ke (fails #4) - She acts tsuntsun and deredere towards Fujioka. However, the reason why she acts so tsuntsun is not because she's hiding her feelings, but because of some major misunderstandings that's not related at all (which is often quite hilarious :heh:). I can't imagine for the life of me calling her a tsundere because of that, since if the misunderstandings weren't there, she wouldn't be acting tsuntsun at all.

Asuka of NGE (fails #3)- her tsun and dere are directed to other people. AFAIK, she never directed tsun towards Kaji nor dere towards Shinji. I don't understand the need to label her as a tsundere when the simplest reason as to her actions is that she loves Kaji and she hates Shinji's guts in the tv series/movies. (And yes, I'm a diehard Asuka/Shinji shipper ^^; )

Of course, Girlfriend of Steel (1 and 2) Asuka is without a doubt tsundere, since she actually has a dere side towards Shinji.

Hinagiku of Hayate (fails #1)- Ano... where's her tsun towards Hayate? Never in my memory has Hina acted harshly against Hayate. She's been encouraging, kind and understanding towards Hayate for the past 30 episodes...

Back on topic, how about Kyou? Nope not a typical tsundere for me. If Hinagiku is lacking tsun, then Kyou is lacking dere. Kyou's harsh towards Sunohara and Okazaki because they act like idiots. If that's the only criteria we fall on, then Tomoyo should be considered as a tsundere as well, right?

The only thing Kyou has done so far that can be considered as dere would be her kick scene, of which is HIGHLY arguable considering any girl not named Suzumiya Haruhi would be embarassed if someone saw their undies. And even if it was a moment of dere, judging by her sideways glance towards Okazaki, it would've been directed towards him. The tsun? towards Sunohara at that time, so it definitely fails #3.

Of course, this might all change. Afterall, Haruhi didn't show her dere side till two thirds into the series, and so Kyou in the future might do the same.

tabun

2007-10-26, 16:11

Sadly, after episode 4, still no real developement of her relationship towards Tomoya, but at least we get to see her as a helpful (and if I may imply caring) person, in that she assists with the club etc. (although the request for help was rather directed at her sister.)

Due to the focus at this point being somewhat the theatre club and Fuko, we'll just have to wait and see!

dgreater1

2007-10-26, 16:12

1) a tsuntsun side - very harsh in a way, through physical, verbal, or other means

2) a deredere side - some 'happy' (need to think up of a better word) feelings towards a particular character or item that they'd rather keep secret.

3) both tsuntsun and deredere must be both directed at the same person. Reason why is because if either are directed to different people, then it just means that character has different feelings towards different people.

4) tsuntsun comes out because of the need to hide deredere. This line is needed because if the cause of the tsuntsun is not because they want to hide deredere, then they might have a legitimate reason for acting tsuntsun.

5) part 4 must come out at least occasionally. This line is needed otherwise if they exhibited tsundere qualities once in a blue moon, I can't classify them as a tsundere

I can't help but reply here because it's really detailed, you really explained your side well.

But, I have to disagree with some points... for me, tsundere is:

#1 tsuntsun and #2 deredere side has to be the most obvious part of her behavior (in short it should be her nature) to make her a tsundere.
#3 is not on the list for me.
#4 no complaints because that is certainly correct (It's what I call a typical tsundere specially if done most of the time) but it's not on my list because it's just a typical reaction coming from a typical tsundere. If her action is not for hiding her deredere side then there has to be a valid reason to her action so that she doesn't fall to only being a tsuntsun like the very obvious Akira.
While #5 does make a tsundere, it would be just for a certain moment which is why it won't be on my list as well (she has to be a tsuntsun but deredere in nature like I said before).

Now, the reason why Kyou is tsuntsun to me is, 1# and 2# is very evident. She always becomes quick-tempered to minor things. Would you really throw a dictionary at someone because they're carrying your pet (a quick-temper that turned her Violent Mode on towards Sunohara and only Sunohara), would you really act harsh towards someone because you see your sister talking to someone? (Towards Tomoya) She could act verbally, no need to be violent, and in fact she could act like that to some other people, as well as to her own sister (harsh in a caring/defensive/protective way). Remember when Ryou asked her sister if she really was a "bi", that's a normal tsundere reaction trying to be defensive against her sister (See the reason why #4 doesn't fall on my list? She's not really hiding her deredere part, but she's in fact a deredere.) The only difference that Kagami has to Kyou is Kyou is a much more tsun than her, and her target is multiple.

Which brings us to #3, this is where both of us conflicts. Like I said, for me, you don't need to direct your tsuntsun and deredere towards a single person. It's just a trait/part of being a tsundere, tsuntsun comes out trying to hide the deredere-ness, (very typical tsundere traits, which belongs mostly to traditional tsundere because they're trying to hide the fact that they're falling in love with the character they always gets tsuntsun with), OTOH, what I'm trying to tell is, a tsundere is a person who acts tsuntsun all the time but in fact she's also a weak person inside, and also, someone who acts tough to hide their weak side, and another one, someone who starts as tsuntsun but gradually becomes a tsundere to the point they become #4 type you're talking about. Tsundere is a flexible term about having #1 and #2 their very obvious behaviour.

And the reason why Tomoyo isn't a tsundere is because 1# (tsuntsun) is not her normal behaviour compared to Kyou. Her violent actions towards Sunohara and those other's who wants to harm her (excluding Tomoya) is just a show of self-defense on her part, it's not being tsuntsun (the definition of tsuntsun is not being violent alone, it's being quick-tempered/hotheaded/etc. --> to the point that she gets violent, when she beats up Sunohara it's more like, mess with me then you'll get it). I don't consider her being tsuntsun towards Tomoya as well, more like she's being a nag towards Tomoya.

So in short a tsundere only needs; Or if you want, to me a tsundere only needs:

1) Her tsuntsun side must be very obvious - bad attitude, quick-temper, hotblooded, harsh... (verbal violence-to->physical violence) Anyway, it's a very flexible term... just think about a hotheaded girl who always shout... you'll get the idea...

2) Her derdere side must also be obvious, but no need to make it as obvious as her tsuntsun side - cute side, shy side... erm why am I making this long, I'll make it short... her GIRLY SIDE thanks for the term Kinny, which is why I said, almost all moe characters are deredere, if not all, if you want to place Akira to the moe side, sure, but that would mean you like a person who does nothing but complain :heh:

3) Someone or something (could be separate people or animal or thing) who draws out their tsuntsun and deredere everytime. Be it a person or an animal, a stuffed toy (yeah a stuffed toy and an animal).

I use only the three important things, the others are just part of what being a tsundere is... it's not really said that you need to act your tsuntsun and deredere towards a single entity, it's not really said that you have to hide the fact that you can be a deredere. All you have to have is a tsuntsun and a deredere personality (of course it has to be very evident, and someone or something that will draw those out of you. You wouldn't be able to show their tsuntsun and deredere side evidently if you don't have someone or something to that draw out, do you?

tabun

2007-10-26, 16:18

Oh dear... when will the posts begin to exceed their limits and require two posts for one?

Just an old man's ramblings, nevermind...

X207

2007-10-26, 19:03

looks like kyou is the most popular now. mine is a tie between tomoyo and kyou. there are way too many intersting characters in clannad that im having trouble finding out who is the best.

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-26, 19:06

Klashikari

2007-10-26, 19:08

looks like kyou is the most popular now. mine is a tie between tomoyo and kyou. there are way too many intersting characters in clannad that im having trouble finding out who is the best.

seconding Kang-kun comment.
That said, the comparison is a bit early as almost every character didn't show their full potential yet i think.
Well... it is rather personal tastes at stakes... explosive damage, or combo? you choose :heh:

As for me, the current avatar might be already enough XD. That said, Kyou is a very interesting character how she deal with everyone, and i'm wondering how her relationship was with Tomoya and Youhei, since she call them by their first names, so most likely, they were classmates from earlier grades (wild guess though).
hope we might get some "twins sisters past" usual treat... i can clearly see kyou standing between her sister and some bullies ^^"

Trivia ! something Tomoyo will never have: botan ! ^_^

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-26, 19:13

Trivia ! something Tomoyo will never have: botan ! ^_^

But Tomoyo has silver hair, which is THE best!

toxic_trance

2007-10-26, 19:14

One can always dye their hair to silver..but not all can have Botan. :)

Mirrinus

2007-10-26, 19:32

Needs more Swinu...I mean, Botan.

Botan reminds me a lot of Potato, and I absolutely loved Potato. If Kyou somehow ends up in Eternal Fighter Zero, she MUST have an attack involving Botan in some way (sort of how Misuzu had Potato as one of her specials).

Other than that, Kyou is reminding me a lot of Kagami Hiiragi and Haruhi Suzumiya...which is awesome, by the way.

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-26, 19:38

Other than that, Kyou is reminding me a lot of Kagami Hiiragi and Haruhi Suzumiya...which is awesome, by the way.

In appearances or behavior?

Mirrinus

2007-10-26, 19:42

In appearances or behavior?

Both for Kagami, personality for Haruhi (it's the tie grab, I bet).

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-26, 20:23

Both for Kagami, personality for Haruhi (it's the tie grab, I bet).

I personally disagree: so far, the only similarities I see are in the appearances.

DragoonKain3

2007-10-27, 00:59

@dgreater
there is a reason why points #3-5 exists. Without those, you would be including a whole bunch of characters that people don't call tsundere. I have listed before just a small summary, but here's an indepth explanation.

Reason for #3 (tsun and dere must be drawn out by the same thing)
Nanoha, judging from the first season alone, is tsuntsun to the villain yet deredere to her friends. Nanoha = tsundere then? :eyebrow:

If the tsun and dere aren't drawn out by the same entity, one would encapsulate the vast majority of anime protagonists as tsunderes. This is because in a typical show, the protagonist is usually very tsun to enemies and very dere to friends.

If anything, this is the 'rule' that people should include in their definitions of tsundere, because without it, they'll include a vast amount of characters that the majority of people don't consider tsundere.

Reason for #4 (tsun is the cause of the need to hide dere)
First of all, if tsun isn't caused by dere whatsoever, then people don't term that as tsundere at all.

Or these characters are termed yangire, where their tsun is caused by some other event that 'snaps' them out of their normal selves into their tsun mode.

For example, Ryuuguu Rena of Higurashi, who's famous for 'snapping' from her dere omochi-kaeri-mode into her dreaded oyashiro-mode and back. And I don't see anyone labelling her as a tsundere.

So we established that tsun must be the cause of the dere. But there's another group of characters who also acts tsun as the cause of their dere, and that's the yandere girls. But what's the difference between a yandere and a tsundere? Simple, yandere almost always use their tsun to SHOW their dere, while tsundere use it to try and HIDE it.

For example, without this, Fuyou Kaede from Shuffle and Kotonoha/Sekai from the infamous School Days would be considered as tsundere as well. All these characters exhibit tsuntsun and deredere behaviour, but people don't consider them tsundere.

Do note that the rule doesn't say 'all tsun must be used to hide dere'. A lot of tsunderes use their tsun side for other good reasons on the same character they're dere for, but I have yet to find a character people call a tsundere that doesn't try to hide their dere with their tsun in some way, shape or form.

[as an aside, people I know try and differentiate tsundere and yandere in saying tsundere is tsun on the outside and dere on the inside, while yandere is the otherway around.

Of which I counter, then what about the tsunderes who's usually dere then turn tsun, like say, Kaname Chidori of FMP fame? She's usually neutral or dere towards Sagara, and only turns tsun if either he gets too close to Tessa or he's doing something mighty stupid again. She's certainly not yandere...]

Reason for #5 (tsundere activities must be occasional)
This is mainly my 'get out of jail' card, because there's a character out there somewhere who'll possess all 4 qualities yet they only do that in one occasion. Hardly a tsundere at that.

Let me ask you, do you consider Kana, Nanoha, Rena, Kotonoha, and Sekai as tsunderes? Going by your defintion, they are tsunderes because their tsuns are very evident, and so are their deres. And God knows that there's some sort of catalyst that brings out both tsun and dere.

If you do consider them as tsunderes, then I have no problems. But if for some reason you don't consider even one character as a tsundere, then your defintion of tsundere needs to be revamped.

That's really the problem I see with the definition of tsundere running nowadays; with ill-defined definitions, those definitions are so broad that they could describe characters people don't consider tsundere at all. But if they're fine with that, then there's nothing I can do about it.

dgreater1

2007-10-27, 04:42

I won't answer back to your reasoning about #3 and #5 because my answer would be the same as before. But anyway, I think I finally understand the reason our thoughts isn't connecting.

First, if you're a tsundere, your tsuntsun side should always be heavier/obvious/evident than your deredere side. If you're deredere side is much heavier/obvious/evident than your tsuntsun, you won't be a tsundere, but more like a typical moe character. If you were only a Filipino, there's a single word I could say to you that would surely ring a bell and tell me, I see, I finally got it.

Tsundere = mataray ang pag-uugali, pero sa loob ay kabaitan.
Tsundere = hot-headed (tsuntsun) person but actually kind (deredere) inside. Implying that she's typically a hot-headed person but it doesn't mean she doesn't have a girly side on her. Meaning, she acts quick-tempered all the time, but will show girly sides from time to time (A simple explanation of the modern definition)

What you might be doing is weigh the deredere side much heavier than the tsuntsun side.

Let me ask you, do you consider Kana, Nanoha, Rena, Kotonoha, and Sekai as tsunderes? Going by your defintion, they are tsunderes because their tsuns are very evident, and so are their deres. And God knows that there's some sort of catalyst that brings out both tsun and dere.

If you do consider them as tsunderes, then I have no problems. But if for some reason you don't consider even one character as a tsundere, then your defintion of tsundere needs to be revamped.

You probably know my answer if you read my above reply... if not, I'll say they're not tsundere, why? A simple answer, they're deredere in nature but shows a tsuntsun side from time to time. See the difference? As opposed to tsundere who are tsuntsun in nature (almost about everything), they will still show their deredere-ness, the characters mentioned above are usually deredere in nature (about everything) but will show their tsuntsun side from time to time (or only to opposing target) but usually, the tsuntsun-ness of a deredere type personality are really mild that it's not even close to the tsuntsun-ness of a tsundere.

***Going by your defintion, they are tsunderes because their tsuns are very evident, and so are their deres.***

This is where we didn't connect. But anyway, the tsuntsun and deredere should be evident of course, but the dere shouldn't be more obvious than the tsun because that would be weighing the person more on the typical moe side.

Or these characters are termed yangire, where their tsun is caused by some other event that 'snaps' them out of their normal selves into their tsun mode.

For example, without this, Fuyou Kaede from Shuffle and Kotonoha/Sekai from the infamous School Days would be considered as tsundere as well. All these characters exhibit tsuntsun and deredere behaviour, but people don't consider them tsundere.

I hope this wouldn't be out of topic but, yangire are characters that are deredere but will suddenly have a snap of mind possibly to the point they would seriously hurt someone (yanderu, root word is 病む=yamu [the definition is taken from kokoro no yamu (mental instability)]), they branched off from their closest term yandere which is a term for girls that are initially deredere but gradually turns psycho (snaps out of mind, see my explanation about yamu) as the story progress.

yandere = Kaede of Shuffle, Shion of Higurashi... they're characters that deredere from the start but snapped out as the story progressed. Haven't seen School Days so I have no idea about Kotonoha/Sekai, but if her story is a bit similar to Kaede where her mental instability is caused by her jelousy/anger then she's a perfect yandere.
yangire = very obvious Ryuuguu Rena as you said, there's an issue with Mion though since she only acted yangire towards episode 1 to 4 and that yangire act of her was a product of Keiichi's... I think you know what I mean since you mentioned Higurashi.

And one thing, yandere/yangire doesn't mean "deredere from the start the suddenly turning tsuntsun" more like, deredere from the start then going "kokoro no yanderu"

For example, Ryuuguu Rena of Higurashi, who's famous for 'snapping' from her dere omochi-kaeri-mode into her dreaded oyashiro-mode and back. And I don't see anyone labelling her as a tsundere.

You won't see anyone labelling her tsundere because first of all, she's a deredere type that would lose her mind from time to time... (definition for yangire) is a term describing a girl with a deredere personality but will snap out from time to time, but don't call it dereyan, call it yandere. :heh:

Of which I counter, then what about the tsunderes who's usually dere then turn tsun, like say, Kaname Chidori of FMP fame? She's usually neutral or dere towards Sagara, and only turns tsun if either he gets too close to Tessa or he's doing something mighty stupid again. She's certainly not yandere...

Hmmm... there's a bit issue here you see, if you think Kaname is usually deredere, then I won't contradict you. Although, I think Kaname is more of being usually tsuntsun because Sagara is always doing something, I mean, always doing something stupid. Then she sometimes becomes deredere (sometimes the result is totally different and instead of deredere, her tsuntsun gets really high) whenever Sagara's gone. If you think her deredere is heavier than her tsuntsun, then you probably think she's just a typical moe or you probably think she's tsundere because there are occassions where she becomes all lovey dovey with Sagara or defensive towards him. But, I would label her as a tsundere because her tsuntsun side is much heavier than her deredere side. About the yandere thing... she's definitely not a yandere since because yandere is not equal to deredere--->tsundere...

Reason for #5 (tsundere activities must be occasional)
This is mainly my 'get out of jail' card, because there's a character out there somewhere who'll possess all 4 qualities yet they only do that in one occasion. Hardly a tsundere at that.

Yup, that term "get out of jail" card would make a tsundere moment, but what if the one who acted that isn't really a tsuntsun in nature and just acting like that to deny something that implies being a deredere? Although, if you say, the person occasionally does that, as in everytime, then that would make her a tsundere person because that's showing she's a hot-tempered person. Which is why, #5 matters but at the same time doesn't matter as well since it could be misunderstood. The only answer would be to see more of her. Which is probably most people who thinks Kyou isn't tsundere is thinking right now.

That's really the problem I see with the definition of tsundere running nowadays; with ill-defined definitions, those definitions are so broad that they could describe characters people don't consider tsundere at all. But if they're fine with that, then there's nothing I can do about it.

You just didn't understand the real definition behind... tsundere isn't about moments, it's about personality or if you want, personality in a certain moment:

Traditional Definition) A tsuntsun that gradually becomes a deredere as the story progresses. (Character development)
Modern Definition) A Tsuntsun in nature, but actually a deredere in the inside. Just remember that her tsuntsun side should be more obvious than the deredere side. But do notice that there would be times where the deredere part will be much obvious than the tsuntsun part as the story came to something like an important moment (climax/lovey dovey moments/painful moments). But she's a tsuntsun from the start so she probably would go back to being a tsuntsun after that important moment. (Personality as a whole)

CrowKenobi

2007-10-27, 09:20

dgreater1

2007-10-27, 13:15

Interesting conversation here about whether Kyou is a tsundere or not at this point of the anime... personally I think that Kyou isn't a tsundere until for whatever reason, she starts to be infatuated with Tomoya. And since (in her mind) someone as "tough" as her shouldn't be in love with someone such as him, she uses her tsun side to hide that fact (and quite possibly overdoing it as well), whle her dere side shows up in longing looks she give him when she thinks no one else is watching. (and heaven help Tomoya if Kyou gets up enough nerve to show her dere side to him! )

That clear enough?

Clear enough, although, you're defining the traditional type tsundere and Kyou in the Anime would definitely not be in the list of traditional type because:

#1 She started tsuntsun but already friendly with Tomoya, so unless she becomes more deredere towards Tomoya, she wouldn't become a traditional type tsundere.
#2 Kyou hasn't acted tsuntsun towards Tomoya to hide that she's beginning to like him. (A very, very typical traditional tsundere reaction.)

If you're a traditional type (a Shiraishist like most say), you probably don't believe Kagami is a tsundere, or Asuna, or Anya, or Vita (MahouShoujoNanoha), or Tamaki Kousaka (ToHeart2), since traditional tsundere focuses more on character development rather than personality.

Fujibayashi Kyou falls on the modern type tsundere since she's a girl with a quick attitude. And when I meant quick attitude/hotheaded/anything-you-can-call-it, that's her normal behaviour. So in short, she's normally a tsuntsun, but deredere inside. If you weigh the deredere side to be more obvious, the character would fall to the side of being a typical moe and not a tsundere.

Read my simple explanation: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1219876&postcount=86 I did say there that the tsuntsun side should be more obvious than the deredere, meaning... you're a tsuntsun in nature. Which is what I've been saying all this time. And nope, I didn't edit that so it would go to my side, look at the date it was last edited. 10/25/2007

That should be more clear :heh:

Skyfall

2007-10-27, 13:18

As far as the tsundere thing goes i have buried the hatchet for now, but i would like to remind people of this - don't forget to use spoiler tags when giving away information about characters from other shows. Not everyone has seen them.

Kang Seung Jae

2007-10-28, 04:32

Fujibayashi Kyou falls on the modern type tsundere since she's a girl with a quick attitude. And when I meant quick attitude/hotheaded/anything-you-can-call-it, that's her normal behaviour. So in short, she's normally a tsuntsun, but deredere inside. If you weigh the deredere side to be more obvious, the character would fall to the side of being a typical moe and not a tsundere.

Read my simple explanation: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1219876&postcount=86 I did say there that the tsuntsun side should be more obvious than the deredere, meaning... you're a tsuntsun in nature. Which is what I've been saying all this time. And nope, I didn't edit that so it would go to my side, look at the date it was last edited. 10/25/2007

That should be more clear :heh:

Actually, I still say you widened the definition of Modern Tsundere to the limits. This is the definition of Modern Tsundere, as far as I know:

Modern Tsundere: The new, evolved version of tsundere is a person whose emotions and feelings towards a person outwardly change frequently and may display many different personalities, sometimes to the point that can be considered as bipolar.

However, the type of behavior you consider as tsundere is closer to a tough-minded person who also has a soft side, which is NOT started by having feelings for a person.

I'll state this again: Tsundere, whatever your standards, starts BECAUSE you have feelings fopr someone, whether it be love of deep friendship.

velocity7

2007-10-28, 11:33

Why is the definition of tsundere such a heated topic? lol :heh:

Kinny Riddle

2007-10-28, 13:53

Why is the definition of tsundere such a heated topic? lol :heh:
I also want to know why. I'm already exhausted from this debate. I think there's just no middle ground, a person either feels a character is tsundere or she is not.

kct

2007-10-28, 17:25

Because there is a tendency to class Kyou as a tsundere for her behaviour alone?

eMpTy265

2007-10-28, 18:40

Why is the definition of tsundere such a heated topic? lol :heh:

Probably because the definition of tsundere has changed (is changing?) over the years...

Besides.. there's always a group of people that will fall in love with a character due to her 'tsundere'ness, while there will be people that will hate a character once the word tsundere appears in the description.

Either that... or it's that anime fans are obsessed with the truth, and seek nothing more than to define the grey areas of the tsundere debate.... :D

***
Anyways, back to Kyou....

(Maybe we should drop the tsundere issue, and hope for her story to begin soon.)

So.... anyone have any guess as to how Kyou's story will play out here?

dgreater1

2007-10-28, 18:59

Because there is a tendency to class Kyou as a tsundere for her behaviour alone?

Exactly! Remove the tendency part though because is already proven that despite her behaviour, she still acts "girly"

-Actually, I still say you widened the definition of Modern Tsundere to the limits.
-However, the type of behavior you consider as tsundere is closer to a tough-minded person who also has a soft side, which is NOT started by having feelings for a person.

Erm, like I said... I didn't widen the definition at all, you're mixing it with other definition and removing the most important definition the word tsuntsun has. In the Japanese wiki, tsundere means a "namaiki" (multiple description) person but will suddenly turn "oshiorashii (girly side)" (another multi desc. word) by chance (it's by chance so you don't always need to act it towards the same thing or person, what matters is as long as the character shows it).
And tough-minded isn't exactly the right word to describe tsuntsun, a tough-minded person is a strong-willed person, a tsuntsun (quick-temper/hotheaded) person can be tough-minded and weak-minded as well.

Just imagine a girl who gets mad most of the time... and there you have, a tsuntsun person.

Taken from Japanese tsundere wiki:

ツンツンデレ
ツンの部分が非常に多く、なかなかデレの部分が見れないこと。
Tsuntsun-Dere
Their Tsun side is extraordinarily high, you won't see their "dere" side that much.

Kyou is a tsuntsun-dere type because her tsuntsun side is what most of us see and we don't see her deredere side as much.

デレツン
普段はデレ状態だが、一定の条件下になるとツン状態になる（ツンデレの正反対）。
Dere-Tsun:
Usually "dere" but when certain condition arises, they become "tsun" (Exact oposite of Tsundere)

The bipolar you speak of is the exact opposite of tsundere and it means "dere-tsun." If you'll remember Eps. 04 of CLANNAD, Tomoyo displayed this kind of behaviour just once She became mad (the first time we really saw her mad) when Sunohara took her inside the men's washroom.
But as you can see, I don't consider bipolars to be tsundere. Hmm... wait... scratch that... for some reason, it's making me think Hiiragi Kagami is a bipolar tsundere... because she's normally normal, but would always suddenly go tsuntsun because of Konata XD

Probably because the definition of tsundere has changed (is changing?) over the years...

Pretty much true, but the only change I notice was from character development to becoming a behaviour/personality.

Anyways, back to Kyou....

Has any of Kyou's actions so far in the anime been classified as tsun? (I think this is the key issue now right?)

Geh! You're playing with fire again. I won't answer that one because you already know my answer. Go figure out for yourself if her actions are being tsuntsun(being mad) or not XD

I think there's just no middle ground, a person either feels a character is tsundere or she is not.

I guess we have no choice but to leave it to that kind of reasoning XD

Anyway, this would be my last reply to this tsundere thing, really! Throw some dictionaries at me if I still reply about it... Hahaha... I've wasted so much time on this but debating it with others was quite fun, honestly speaking. But the fact that we were victims of the endless fight betweem "she is" and "she is not" wouldn't disappear... :P

Joachim

2007-12-09, 12:01

man... kyou is a sweet girl once you pass her tsun tsun mode, but hey, her being tsundere is what makes her hot = )

is there a meme for a female character who love the male lead but still ended up helping other who also like him especially if that person is her sister, but ended up hurting herself big time

though her scenario might be cliche in romance... still i love it = ) long live kyou!

kct

2007-12-13, 20:28

TOPIC CHANGE.

Now I begin to be worried about Kyou.

If she ends up cutting her hair in the anime.
I gonna join a death fleet/squadron/whatever, and it's pretty obvious that a destroyer is not enough (as if a Scharnhorst-class battlecruiser is enough).

Mai Kawasumi

2007-12-13, 22:00

Kyou is great!

AND magical!
http://xs322.xs.to/xs322/07505/1197590249367.jpg

BTW, I found weird that in Kanon I liked Mai, but in Clannad my fave is Kyou...

Mai = Tomoyo
Makoto = Kyou

Maybe I'm wrong...

kct

2007-12-13, 22:23

Why the heck KyoAni likes to tease us? ;_;

Kang Seung Jae

2007-12-13, 22:29

My thoughts on Kyou:

Character-wise, she's great!

Story-wise, however..... it just doesn't fit Clannad.

Mirrinus

2007-12-14, 04:55

I agree with Kang Seung Jae. As a character, Kyou is absolutely fantastic. However, I just don't really see her as lead character material...but as a more of a side character, I can't think of many better than her. That's why I'm firmly in support of Tomoya + Nagisa, but Kyou would still probably be one of my favorite characters outside of that.

Makes me pretty curious as to how they will handle Kyou's arc...it feels like there's already been a lot of buildup for it.

tripperazn

2007-12-14, 06:11

Mai = Tomoyo
Makoto = Kyou

I can understand the Mai/Tomoyo connection (capable fighters?), but where does Makoto/Kyou come from? I don't see any connection there, at all.

I can also tell you right now that the Mai/Tomoyo similarities stop there. The stories are completely different.

I agree with Kang Seung Jae. As a character, Kyou is absolutely fantastic. However, I just don't really see her as lead character material...but as a more of a side character, I can't think of many better than her. That's why I'm firmly in support of Tomoya + Nagisa, but Kyou would still probably be one of my favorite characters outside of that.

Makes me pretty curious as to how they will handle Kyou's arc...it feels like there's already been a lot of buildup for it.

I completely agree, Kyou has a really good dynamic with Tomoya as a comedy pair.

There's a lot more than buildup, the stage is practically set for Kyou's arc. The references, although only between the twins, are numerous. Especially at ep 11 where Kyou pretty much tells Tomoya enough for him to figure it out. From what he overhear about "rivals in love" at the end and Kyou's words at the bus station, all we need is the trigger and it's Kyou's arc.

ElementSun

2007-12-14, 09:12

BTW, I found weird that in Kanon I liked Mai, but in Clannad my fave is Kyou...

Mai = Tomoyo
Makoto = Kyou

Maybe I'm wrong...

I thought it was more like:

Mai = Kotomi
Makoto = Fuko
Kyou = ???

nadare

2007-12-14, 09:21

Kyou = Kagami
Tomoya = Konata

I mean look at them comedic duo

tripperazn

2007-12-14, 09:30

I thought it was more like:

Mai = Kotomi
Makoto = Fuko
Kyou = ???

If I actually HAD to draw parallels between Clannad and Kanon, those would be mine as well. But damn, trying to think about the similarities really makes you appreciate just how different the elements of the two stories are. I remember a lot of comparison between Kanon and Clannad when the series first started, but those died down pretty quick.

wontaek

2007-12-15, 06:05

In my opinion, as far as we have seen up to ep. 11, Kyou seems to have had most diverse portrayal of herself. Her range of emotions and reactions far surpasses all other characters at this moment(Please consider that range and depth does not mean same thing). If this keeps up, I might wave Kyou's banner instead of Tomoyo once I find something I really like.

Arcc

2007-12-15, 06:36

Mai Kawasumi, I was also the same way. Mai (the Kanon character; this is vaguely confusing) has more in common with Kyou than Tomoyo personality-wise in my opinion. Of course, I've finished the original game with Kyou so I know her story well enough and I won't say anything else until the appointed time. Though it's important to note, "more in common" doesn't mean it's that much more. . . but it's enough that I'd consider her one over Kotomi, who also holds a superficial aspect in common (joining the club with Tohno Minagi from another well-known KeyoAni series).

Also, Kyou was swinging around Sayuri-san's wand there. One absolutely awesome addition by Kyouani: Need moar Magical Girl Kitsune Kyou-rin!

tripperazn

2007-12-15, 08:44

(joining the club with Tohno Minagi from another well-known KeyoAni series).

I do believe a new term has been coined for Air, Kanon (2006), and Clannad. :D

As for Kyou having the most diverse portrayal of herself, you have to keep in mind, she's pretty much a tsundere. Now, I really hate to slap this label on Kyou, who is pretty much my favorite Clannad lead at the moment, but it is not exactly disputable. This isn't to say she's an archetype, as Kyou does deviate quite a bit from the cookie-cutter character.

My point is that being is that when you have a tsundere, with 2 sides automatically, versus a quiet character like Nagisa, it's not exactly a fair comparison for "range of emotions" since tsuntsun and deredere are almost opposite.

khryoleoz

2007-12-19, 16:41

I have an equal affection for both Kyou and Fuko, the first for her style (and graced with one of my favorite VAs) and the other for her cutesy demeanor and sympathetic plight.

Wontaek, is your avatar a photo of Claudio Abbado?

Takuto19

2007-12-19, 16:51

I really like Kyou, the Fujibayashi Twins are great, really like them since i first saw them heh.

Might be a while til the Kyou arc, have a feeling they'll do Tomoyo's next, but really looking forward to it, should be great.

Chi-no

2007-12-20, 07:18

She is a great character.... Very lively out of the two..... Thought there is no disscussion on this character....

:)

KaneDragon

2008-02-01, 19:36

I'm a little disappointed that no one's bumped up this thread in light of ep 16. But I will say this:
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8409/1008tomoyodoeskyouliketps1.th.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1008tomoyodoeskyouliketps1.jpg)
Tsundere~ ;_; Kyou was great in that scene. :)

Divini

2008-02-02, 05:47

Did anyone else laugh at how Ryou Hirohashi (Kyou's voice actor) said "God, he pisses me off!" :heh:

Khaos

2008-02-02, 05:56

I didn't like Kyou until now, she had too much of a tsundere, but after watching ep 16 she gained a lot more sympathy. :)

Joachim

2008-02-02, 14:09

man.. kyou is just loveable, i wish i had girlfriend like her... = S (how loveable she can be? play the game :D)

<--- self proclaimed kyou fanboy woooooo

and yea her VA... i love how she done her job in the game, i dunno why but because i play the game first before watching the anime.. i was kinda, well felt that she has more "emotion" when VA-ing for the game.... maybe its just me, but in the game her "rant, angry voice" is so... moelicious... i even made it into my handphone error ringtone lol

Mirrinus

2008-02-02, 18:32

Kyou has been ridiculously awesome in the last few episodes. I still whole-hearted support Tomoya/Nagisa, but Kyou is now easily my favorite character. I find that I tend to like the fiery-tempered hot-heads in anime for some reason...

nanaman

2008-02-02, 19:38

Man, when I get to play the game I will totally be going to go for the Kyou route at first. I can't say I'm too much for most tsundere roles, but Kyou is not overly tsuntsun in the way it get's irritating, I think she's just kind of cute in her way of acting, like when she tries to hide that she does like Tomoya when it's pretty much apparent that she really does. As always, the main lead is completely oblivious to this fact which is kind of a let down, but we'll probably get to see more of this as this is seemingly the beginning of her arc (?).

Now it's pretty obvious that the Tomoya/Nagisa route we're going to see in the anime which is a bit boring I think, especially when they hint too much on it because it kind of leaves out the little suspense a "harem anime" like this would have. I would support the Tomoya/Kyou route more, cause I just feel they are so well matched in their behaviour and they'd just fit good together. Well, I guess Tomoya/Nagisa fit pretty well together too, just in another way. I guess I'm just biased on the fact that I think Kyou is the most beautiful character in this series, and the one I'd go for personally (athletic girls FTW) :p

KaneDragon

2008-02-03, 00:04

Better to weaken that kind of suspense than to suddenly throw two characters together abruptly, like so many other shows. Nagisa/Tomoya are the Official Couple, but their relationship is being built gradually and believably. Plus, Nagisa's a huge improvement over, say, Ayu...

But I digress, in a Kyou thread. Anyway, Kyou is a great character. Seeing her blush so much in ep 16 was a wonder. Seeing her being deredere directly to Tomoya would be... overwhelming... Alas, I'll probably have to wait for the game to see such an interaction... ;_;

sikvod00

2008-02-03, 00:15

In the preview for ep. 17 it says Kyou is thinking of becoming a kindergarten teacher.

L-O-L

KaneDragon

2008-02-03, 00:29

L-O-L
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3440/kyoumagicalgirlpunchyouca2.jpg

Kyou can do anything. :D

Skyfall

2008-02-03, 04:03

Now it's pretty obvious that the Tomoya/Nagisa route we're going to see in the anime which is a bit boring I think, especially when they hint too much on it because it kind of leaves out the little suspense a "harem anime" like this would have. I would support the Tomoya/Kyou route more, cause I just feel they are so well matched in their behaviour and they'd just fit good together. Well, I guess Tomoya/Nagisa fit pretty well together too, just in another way. I guess I'm just biased on the fact that I think Kyou is the most beautiful character in this series, and the one I'd go for personally

They are well matched in a way indeed, and i would argue against Kyou being tsundere in the first place, but i am not disappointed in them going for Nagisa route. After all, Clannad, while offering several paths, has only one true end ;)

(athletic girls FTW) :p

Wouldn't you go for Tomoyo instead then ? :p

nanaman

2008-02-03, 07:39

Better to weaken that kind of suspense than to suddenly throw two characters together abruptly, like so many other shows. Nagisa/Tomoya are the Official Couple, but their relationship is being built gradually and believably. Plus, Nagisa's a huge improvement over, say, Ayu...

Well I guess you're right when you put it like that, but still it's kind of fun when the unexpected thing happens. It's just kind of more exciting when they put it together like in KimiKiss, where it's still unclear who it'll be. But of course, they're different so you can't really compare them to eachother I guess. I still like Clannad more.

Wouldn't you go for Tomoyo instead then ? :p

Well she's kind of good too XD, I just favor Kyou because she's much more cute IMO

Malzar

2008-02-05, 21:18

Yeah Kyou is rly cute :)

Mai Kawasumi

2008-02-08, 01:31

dere-dere Kyou in episode 17 was awesome and cute at the same time :heh:

therationalpi

2008-02-10, 01:24

After watching episode 17 I really got to thinking about Kyou/Tomoya as a couple. What really got me thinking is how similar the two are and how they would make a great couple in that "Matching Pair" sort of way. Honestly, both of them are mischievous, but ultimately very sensitive and caring to those around them. Their senses of humor match perfectly, and they play off each other well. Supposedly, they have been friends for a long time. No surprise there, as they seem incredibly comfortable around eachother.

Really makes me want to play Kyou's arc in the game. It's pretty clear that the anime's pairing is Nagisa/Tomoya (Opposites attract theory), but the other pairings are interesting as well.

KholdStare

2008-02-15, 16:50

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/KholdStare88/Kyou.jpg

YES, what, best screenshot of episode 18. I respect Kyou very much. Throughout the anime it was quite obviously who she likes but never once did she complain to anyone, or at least not yet. What I'm not hoping for is a bawling confession in the later episodes, because to me, that would absolutely destroy her character.

Deathscyther

2008-02-15, 17:15

She's one of my favourite characters, no doubt. I still like Nagisa/Tomoya though. Let's hope that we'll get to see more of her^^

OceanBlue

2008-02-15, 17:23

Clannad has left me in despair!!

*Leaves to create a Kyou avatar.*

Joachim

2008-02-15, 21:59

cure your despair by playing the game and pick kyou route :)

Nerroth

2008-02-16, 07:17

Or better still - imagine that in any route not her own, that Kyou will eventually meet a guy ten times cooler than Tomoya, and laugh about a silly teenage crush she once had!

Ryou, too.

iamandragon

2008-02-16, 07:48

Or better still - imagine that in any route not her own, that Kyou will eventually meet a guy ten times cooler than Tomoya, and laugh about a silly teenage crush she once had!

Ryou, too.

There are no man that's cooler than Tomoya!

Shiroth

2008-02-16, 08:03

There are no man that's cooler than Tomoya!
100% truth. Tomoya is a once in a life-time catch.

Nerroth

2008-02-16, 08:47

The existence of Graham Acre disproves that theory.

And that's just naming a character with the same seiyuu as Tomoya!

golthin

2008-02-16, 09:29

Poor Kyou, she was blocked by Ryou! IT was bad that Ryou didn't just gave her blessing ahead.
Oh well, now it is too late. :heh:

iamandragon

2008-02-16, 09:35

100% truth. Tomoya is a once in a life-time catch.

Tomoya is actually my 2nd favourite anime character so that was rather a statement of my feelings...

The existence of Graham Acre disproves that theory.

And that's just naming a character with the same seiyuu as Tomoya!

What on earth is that?

DragoonKain3

2008-02-16, 11:47

Lol, how did Graham Akre from Gundam 00 creep in the Kyou thread of all threads? Boggles my mind lol.

Shiroth

2008-02-16, 12:33

Lol, how did Graham Akre from Gundam 00 creep in the Kyou thread of all threads? Boggles my mind lol.
The answer to this question is so easy that it's already been answered.

Joachim

2008-02-16, 19:31

kyou with graham acre... yea she will like "hey wait you sounded like tomoya, and as cool as him, god i love you"

Nerroth

2008-02-17, 08:23

And he has that awesome custom Flag, too.

Shame that Clannad doesn't have any pop culture references like Lucky Star - it would be cool if one of the characters was a fan of Gundam 00, or that there was a dream sequence where Tomoya thought he was Graham!

Sunohara would have to be Patrick, though.

iamandragon

2008-02-17, 10:31

Actually there's someone who secretly loves Kyou in the anime...and that is...
Fuuko! Go check the tongue twister scene of her and Tomoya, when desperate, she can't help but keep calling Kyou's name!

Joachim

2008-02-17, 12:55

Shame that Clannad doesn't have any pop culture references like Lucky Star - it would be cool if one of the characters was a fan of Gundam 00, or that there was a dream sequence where Tomoya thought he was Graham!

Sunohara would have to be Patrick, though.

now that i want to see, it will be a good joke :heh: and yea tomoya often thinks and dreams of strangest thing (remember in kotomi route :uhoh: , add fuuko route where he imagine himself being all flashy while being compared to starfish and sea slug) lol

Proto

2008-02-17, 13:53

@Nerroth: If it helps anyhow Sunohara's favorite song is Bomb A Head, the Tenjou Tenge opening :p

iamandragon

2008-02-17, 18:36

Moonie

2008-02-19, 04:42

Actually there's someone who secretly loves Kyou in the anime...and that is...
Fuuko! Go check the tongue twister scene of her and Tomoya, when desperate, she can't help but keep calling Kyou's name!

Makes me want to watch that scene again :heh:

WilsonJJ

2008-02-19, 05:06

now that i want to see, it will be a good joke :heh: and yea tomoya often thinks and dreams of strangest thing (remember in kotomi route :uhoh: , add fuuko route where he imagine himself being all flashy while being compared to starfish and sea slug) lol

He as well chuffed at the start as well :heh::heh:
I guess that an other new kind of creature then,
something between startfish and sea slug.

Loved every single fun and sad bits.

still broken after ep 18 :eyespin::eyespin:
made my self feeling better after listening to drama disk and playing the kyou route:twitch:

can't wait to see what is coming ahead on 19

Ice Block

2008-02-19, 06:08

Kyou!

Seriously, couldn't sleep well for 2 nights after watching ep18. That last scene keeps popping up :eyespin: *stares at avy*

Hope she fully recovers from that incident, and looking forward to ep19 *goes back to WoW*. Damn women's soccer :heh:

From what I read, she becomes a kindergaten teacher and, incidentally, Ushio's teacher. Lol at older Botan.

Tragic

2008-02-19, 21:21

I felt sad for Kyou and Ryou after episode 18, but we all saw it coming, no?

Thentus

2008-02-19, 21:24

Well quite frankly I didn't see that coming, but something along those lines yes =/.

What a good raw emotion scene though, it really made me appreciate her a lot more to have a sense of reality. It was bound to happen though from the very first episode many things have happened the same thing is still to be expected.

AuditionEX

2008-02-20, 14:15

Ignore the Nagisa the Cockroach arc of animu

I still prefer that it would be more interesting if Kyou's route happens :D

Shinigami_Mello

2008-02-20, 18:28

If the Kyou arc did happen though, it would be a lot like a more typical romance anime.

Anyway, I feel sorry for Kyou. Maybe if she had not tried to help Ryou and made her move sooner, she might have gotten him.

Rembr

2008-02-20, 18:45

greyhawk

2008-02-21, 05:07

It probably won't be bawling but I think there's going to be some sort of confession.
Very unlikely, she's obviously been taken out of the picture as we've seen in ep18. Moreover, it's not like there's much screen time left. I still hope there'll be a remake or sth, but I may as well as pick up the game.:rolleyes:

tripperazn

2008-02-21, 05:24

It probably won't be bawling but I think there's going to be some sort of confession.

Considering that only about 5% of Kyou's arc was shown in the anime...not likely. Besides, the end of 18 basically completely killed off any possibility of non-Nagisa romance with Tomoya.

Rembr

2008-02-21, 09:29

I didn't say there was going to be a romantic conclusion. Just a conclusion of some sort.

tripperazn

2008-02-21, 18:54

I didn't say there was going to be a romantic conclusion. Just a conclusion of some sort.

I believe the word you used was "confession", not "conclusion". There's only one thing that Kyou could possibly confess to Tomoya about, and I was just saying it's not going to happen.

Rembr

2008-02-21, 19:14

I believe the word you used was "confession", not "conclusion". There's only one thing that Kyou could possibly confess to Tomoya about, and I was just saying it's not going to happen.A conclusion that includes a confession? Never said it's not a confession...

tripperazn

2008-02-21, 19:31

A confession of what? I don't see anything in her game arc that could be used at this point.

Zenemis

2008-02-21, 19:37

"I'll grow my hair longer, so you'll love me more... MORE... MORE >=D"

kyoulover

2008-02-23, 00:06

Aw man...

i really disappointed to see if her arc in the anime ends like that.... T_T

and also she's my most fave main heroines in clannad to be honest ^^;;

really love her for many reason

velocity7

2008-02-25, 21:28

If you guys love Kyou, there are two things which can help:

1. There's a chapter from the CLANNAD Another Story collection which I translated. Requires you played Kyou's route though, but you can read it on Baka-Tsuki.
2. There's a novel compilation coming out May 20. Details are:

http://www.ichijinsha.co.jp/special/novels/

This appears to be a novel compilation being released on May 20. One of the stories is called 「死神のキョウ」 (Shinigami no Kyou), which roughly translates to Kyou, The God of Death. Kai's the writer, same one as for Kyou's scenario in CLANNAD.

Site goes on to describe Kyou as a tsundere. :heh:

New/Old

2008-02-25, 23:14

Ah. The novels... Why is it that I have them, yet can't understand most of it?... Suppose it's my collector's habit. :heh:

kyoulover

2008-02-26, 09:11

nani

2008-02-26, 10:10

If you guys love Kyou, there are two things which can help:

1. There's a chapter from the CLANNAD Another Story collection which I translated. Requires you played Kyou's route though, but you can read it on Baka-Tsuki.
2. There's a novel compilation coming out May 20. Details are:

Don't forget there is another short novel (彼女の境界線) by Kai in the CLANNAD Visual Fan Book :).

Regarding the new novel, I don't think there will be too much tie-in/reference with CLANNAD because:

Kai had already left Key

the name of the heroine is 鏡 instead of 杏 (both are キョウ)

ZhangKhaiEn

2008-02-27, 19:15

"I'll grow my hair longer, so you'll love me more... MORE... MORE >=D"

Well someone is turning Kyou into a yandere :p

Shana

2008-02-27, 19:35

Okay, I know I'll be insulted, neg repped and etc for saying what I'm going to say, but I will say it. After all, it is a character discussion thread, not a Character Adoration thread.

She was one of my favorite characters before episode 14. When she started trying to 'help' Ryou to hang out with Tomoya, I said "It's okay, it's a harem after all," and that. But then, a few episodes later (ep16-18), it seemed (to me) like if she was using Ryou as a truck to be near Tomoya, that really made me not to like her, since that was sure a hypocrisy from her, saying that she's helping Ryou while she's (Kyou) helping herself. She could've been sincere to Ryou and say that she's in love with Tomoya too.

DJ_RockmanX

2008-02-27, 19:40

Shana

2008-02-27, 20:20

Well, that's their route in a nutshell.

The conflict between Kyou's own feelings versus being the supportive onee-chan and tending to Ryou's feelings.

You should said that she has self-problems.

And continuing with my speech:

She can't be both, good sister and hope-to girlfriend. IMO she should be the good sister, since she doesn't care anyone than Ryou. Proofs?

Episode 15: Nagisa was crying and Tomoya holding her shoulders, trying to say "be strong, Nagisa". Oh yeah, lets go! I gotta ruin that beautiful scene because my sister is in love with Tomoya.

Episode 16: I a- my sister is Tomoya's girlfriend and I won't accept you to talk with him!

DJ_RockmanX

2008-02-27, 20:30

You should said that she has self-problems.

And continuing with my speech:

She can't be both, good sister and hope-to girlfriend. IMO she should be the good sister, since she doesn't care anyone than Ryou. Proofs?

Episode 15: Nagisa was crying and Tomoya holding her shoulders, trying to say "be strong, Nagisa". Oh yeah, lets go! I gotta ruin that beautiful scene because my sister is in love with Tomoya.

Episode 16: I a- my sister is Tomoya's girlfriend and I won't accept you to talk with him!

Well now we're getting into an opinion thing, and I'm not gonna participate in that battle.

There are essentially two endings:

Ryou gets with Tomoya, which I think is the "good" ending that leaves Kyou to her unrequited feelings.

Kyou get with Tomoya, which I guess is the "true" ending that ends in heartbreak for Ryou and gives Kyou fans their fair share.

Rembr

2008-02-27, 21:59

You should said that she has self-problems.

And continuing with my speech:

She can't be both, good sister and hope-to girlfriend. IMO she should be the good sister, since she doesn't care anyone than Ryou. Proofs?

Episode 15: Nagisa was crying and Tomoya holding her shoulders, trying to say "be strong, Nagisa". Oh yeah, lets go! I gotta ruin that beautiful scene because my sister is in love with Tomoya.

Episode 16: I a- my sister is Tomoya's girlfriend and I won't accept you to talk with him!Tomoya told Kyou he was single, what's she to think?

Also despite her feelings she didn't take an initiative to back down on her promise to her sister.

Don't really see anything wrong with her yet.

Shana

2008-02-27, 22:08

Tomoya told Kyou he was single, what's she to think?

Also despite her feelings she didn't take an initiative to back down on her promise to her sister.

Don't really see anything wrong with her yet.

He told her he was single, not that they'll hang out and she's going to take away every girl tries to talk to him.

And, I'm NOT saying that she's trying to back down the promise she did to Ryou, I'm saying that it seems like if she's using Ryou as a truck to be with Tomoya.

Rembr

2008-02-27, 22:16

He told her he was single, not that they'll hang out and she's going to take away every girl tries to talk to him.Huh, he told her he was single. Which meant he was fair game as far as romantic advances go.

And, I'm NOT saying that she's trying to back down the promise she did to Ryou, I'm saying that it seems like if she's using Ryou as a truck to be with Tomoya.That was the whole conundrum with the Fujibayashi sisters no? It's not really as simple as who was in the wrong, it was a pretty much a lose-lose situation for them. Fortunately in the end both their feelings were honored by each other.

tripperazn

2008-02-27, 23:07

Ice Block

2008-02-28, 05:35

He told her he was single, not that they'll hang out and she's going to take away every girl tries to talk to him.

And, I'm NOT saying that she's trying to back down the promise she did to Ryou, I'm saying that it seems like if she's using Ryou as a truck to be with Tomoya.

Kyou prioritizes her imouto over anything else (roughly), and that includes herself and Tomoya.

Summary from Ryou's confession to Kyou's confession

Ryou confesses to Tomoya and asks him if they can go out. Tomoya agrees. Kyou's plan to get Tomoya together with her sister succeeds. They go on a date several days later. Ryou urges Kyou to tag along (so says Ryou), and Kyou comes up with a plan to get Tomoya to "score points" for Ryou - going window shopping and indirectly showing to Tomoya the stuff Ryou likes.

They then come upon a jewelry shop where the sisters find pendants that have gemstones on them (Ryou prefers the Tanzanite pendant while Kyou prefers Amethyst). Kyou signals to Tomoya to remember what Ryou liked so he may buy it secretly and give it to her later, and then she tells the group to go buy a shirt for Tomoya to distract Ryou from buying the pendant.

The first sign of Tomoya preferring Kyou over Ryou was when he preferred long hair over short hair. The sisters, however, don't think too much of this (at least it seems at first).

Holidays are approaching, and Tomoya asks Ryou out on a date. She agrees to go out on Monday, coz she has a course orientation during the weekends. On Saturday, Tomoya wastes time at the shopping district. He meets Botan, and consequently, Kyou. They take Botan on a walk. Kyou buys some tarot cards for Tomoya to give to Ryou. They then come upon an open field. Kyou tells Tomoya that this is Botan's most important place coz this is where she picked him up.

They then talk about how this will soon become a garage ore someone's mansion, coz the city will always change - Botan will then no longer have an important place [? this line sounds wierd]. Tomoya tells here that the most important place to Botan is with Kyou, since she is now her new family. Kyou then comments Tomoya on how he can say such words from time to time, and thanks him.

Kyou then suddenly asks Tomoya about Ryou - about how they are doing, and if they have kissed yet. Tomoya answers "no", and Kyou asks him if they can practice. Tomoya agrees. Kyou tells him to think of her as Ryou - to come close to where he can't see her long hair. Kyou stops him violently just when they are about to kiss. Then continue walking Botan home, and Kyou thanks Tomoya for various stuff (Tomoya asks "for what?" but Kyou just says "for various stuff" or something like that).

The next day, Tomoya goes to the jewelry shop to buy Ryou's pendant, but he ends up buying Kyou's one instead (though he really didn't mean to buy the wrong one).

Monday comes, and Tomoya hurries to the shopping center coz he's already late for his date with Ryou. He forgets to bring the pendant with him, but doesn't bother going back. The date went fine, and they ended up kissing in the fortune telling game booth.

The next day at school, rumors spread that Kyou and Tomoya are going out coz someone saw their "kissing practice" scene last Saturday. Because of this, Kyou starts distancing herself from Tomoya to clear up the rumors. Sunohara asks Tomoya if the rumors are true, and he flatly denies it, saying that he is going out with Ryou. Sunohara then asks him if he really does like Ryou, and Tomoya is unable to answer.

A few days [?] later, Kyou asks Sunohara [!] to go to the courtyard after school. Sunohara brags to Tomoya that he may be confessed [!!] to, and that he (Tomoya) not interfere with his (Sunohara's) happiness. After school, Tomoya secretly watches over the confession scene. Kyou notices him, giving him a sharp [?] glance (at this time, Kyou had already confessed to Sunohara). Sunohara asks Kyou if she really is serious. She the proves to Sunohara that she is indeed serious by closing in on him for a kiss (while giving Tomoya a pained [?] glance). Tomoya decides to call out to them and stop this scene, but is stopped in hesitation when Sunohara suddenly stops Kyou. He asks her if she's forcing herself, coz apparently, her hands are shaking. Kyou quickly steps away from Sunohara. He then asks her if she really liked him (Sunohara). He tells Kyou that maybe she liked Tomoya all along. Kyou is speechless from this, and then she gives Tomoya the same painful stare. Sunohara notices this, and Tomoya is forced to come out. Kyou then runs away from the scene.

In his room after school as always, Sunohara then tells Tomoya that Kyou perhaps planned to go out with him (Sunohara) just so she can find an excuse to be near Tomoya. Sunohara comments that perhaps Kyou really did like Tomoya that much coz she'd go that far.

The next day, Ryou invites Tomoya to eat lunch with her, saying that she tried hard to cook and that her sister helped her too. At lunch, Tomoya notices Kyou's trademark pork cutlets that he praised he for. Ryou tells him that those are the only things that her sister made. After lunch, while heading from the washroom to class, Tomoya meets Kyou. She remains distant from him, not even giving the usual simple greetings. She passes by Tomoya, and then he tells her that the pork cutlets were good as always. She doesn't mind this, and continues to ignore him.

School festival came, and Ryou invites Tomoya to eat ice cream with her at the courtyard. They and up kissing there, but then Tomoya notices someone that saw them form far away behind Ryou - Kyou. She (Kyou) runs away from the scene with teary eyes. Tomoya abruptly stops the kiss, making Ryou feel worried that someone might have seen them.

Two days after the school festival, Ryou again invites Tomoya to eat with her. She tells him that she cooked the food herself this time. Tomoya notices that Ryou's hands were wrapped in bandages, causing Ryou to come up with an excuse (buying drinks) to run away from him. At the courtyard, Tomoya, holding Ryou's bento, notices Botan. The boar runs to him, and he infers that Botan may be hungry. He then notices Kyou coming towards them with her usual (smiling) expression (Tomoya sees this as a very painful smile). She tells him that he better eat all of Ryou's lunch coz she (Ryou) worked really hard this morning. Tomoya returns Botan to Kyou, and she heads back to the school building - meeting Ryou on the way. The sisters, however, acted as if they were ignoring each other, and Tomoya asks Ryou if they had a fight. She explains that because Botan is with Kyou, they can't stop suddenly coz that will surely frighten the boar (Botan being afraid of / hating Ryou has been demonstrated several times throughout the game).

After lunch, Kyou's classmate meets the pair as they head back to class and asks Ryou if she could return a dictionary [!] she (classmate) borrowed from Kyou to her (Kyou). Ryou then asks if her sister was not in class, and she tells them that Kyou had to head home. Hearing this, Ryou agrees to return the dictionary to Kyou.

Tomoya sleeps during afternoon classes as usual. He wakes up to the sound of raindrops. Looking out the window, he notices Botan soaked in the rain by the school gates and looking at him. Tomoya understands that Kyou could not have left Botan alone, so he went out to the school gates. Botan then leads him to Kyou, standing still in the rain as if she was waiting for someone.

Conversation is as follows minus Tomoya's internal monologues (taken from baka-tsuki translation):
Tomoya: ... Kyou...
Kyou: Don't come...!
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: Don't come... any closer...
Kyou: ... I'm... begging you...
Tomoya moves towards her.
Kyou: ... why'd... you come here...?
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: School... isn't over yet...
Tomoya: ... I saw Botan from inside class...
Tomoya: I thought it strange, since I heard you left school early..
Kyou: ... I told you... not to worry about me...
Tomoya: Don't say such crap...
Kyou: ... I told you... it's better to think about your girlfriend... about Ryou...
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: I told you to... leave me alone...
Tomoya: ... you think I can...

Kyou: ... you have to leave me alone...!
Kyou: I'm... her older sister...
Kyou: We're twins...
Kyou: You definitely... can't worry about other people...
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: And obviously... I definitely... can't worry about... other people...
Kyou: I knew that... was what I had to do...

Kyou: Seeing you guys get along so well... was painful...

Kyou: The two of you being "lovers" was painful...

Kyou: I'm such a terrible girl... telling you to go out with her...

Kyou: Ryou... told me that she kissed you...
Kyou: And she helped me, and said, "Thank you, onee-chan"...
Kyou: In the beginning, I smiled hearing that. I told Ryou I was glad for her.
Kyou: But as soon as I went to my room, my chest felt tight... painful...

Kyou: See, the day before yesterday...
Kyou: ... when i saw you guys...

Kyou: It shouldn't be strange at all... should it...
Kyou: Since you guys are going out... somehting like that... is the right thing to do...
Kyou: That wasn't... your first time... at all... was it...

Kyou: But... when I realized it, I started to cry...
Kyou: I couldn't stop myself...
Kyou: I couldn't stop it, no matter how many times, how many times I told myself...
Kyou: I... can't see you guys... normally anymore...
Kyou: Even today at lunch... when you guys were there, it was like that day...

Kyou: Thinking that, I couldn't be in school anymore...
Kyou: ... it's too late...
Kyou: ... to realize that... it was deceiving...

Kyou: ... I was scared...
Kyou: I was scared of confessing...
Kyou: If... I confessed... and were rejected, we couldn't talk together as friends anymore...
Kyou: ... I thought I could just be by your side...
Kyou: Just be like that, as friends...
Kyou: Like that, it wouldn't be painful... that's what I thought...
Kyou: That's why I kept in my feelings...
Kyou: ... I regret it...

Kyou: Ahaha... I'm an idiot...
Kyou: Deciding things by myself... I regret it...

Kyou: I'm... so cruel...
Kyou: Getting you and Ryou close together...
Kyou: Telling Ryou to give it her best...
Kyou: I shouldn't have told here to do anything at all...!
Kyou: I would have been better off confessing...!
Kyou: I never thought about that in my mind!!

Kyou: I... hate myself!!
Kyou: Pretending to give other people trouble, not thinking to myself...
Kyou: Not wanting to hurt myself, yet wanting to hurt others...
Kyou: I hate that about myself!!

Tomoya moves towards Kyou and hugs her from behind.
Tomoya: Kyou...!
Kyou: .....!

Kyou: W... hy...?
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: Do you... know what... you're doing...?
Tomoya: You know... what will happen, don't you...
Kyou: .....

Kyou: I had decided to... forget trying at all...
Kyou: But...
Kyou: You're... kind to me...
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: It's cruel...
Kyou: I should have coldly pushed you away...
Kyou: I should never have known this...
Kyou: ... I should never have known... how warm this was...

Kyou: ... I'm sorry...
TOmoya: ... eh?
Kyou: ... I'm sorry... I... like you...
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: That's why... don't be kind to me...
Kyou: I'm an... idiot, see... it's wrong to be nice to me...
Kyou: If you'll... be nice to me... I won't be able to take it any longer...
Tomoya: I... about you, I...
Kyou: Tomoya...!

Kyou: Tomoya...
Kyou: I'm... Fujibayashi Kyou.
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: I'm not Fujibayashi Ryou...
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: .....

Tomoya slowly lets go of Kyou. Facing him with her back, Kyou closes her eyes once. Doing that, she says with a small voice, smiling.
Kyou: Bye, bye...

Kyou then walked away, with Botan chasing after her. When she was out of Tomoya's lign of sight,
Tomoya: ... Kyou...

I may have missed some stuff (the fortune telling stuff notably). More stuff happened afterwards. I suggest you play the game :heh:.

:topicoff: Lol, now I'm hoping for a third season featuring Misae's, Yukine's, Sunohara's, Kyou's and Kappei's routes, and a fourth one on Tomoyo After, with the first few eps being the latter part of Tomoyo's route in Clannad.

Used Can

2008-03-06, 16:34

isteb-isteb

2008-03-07, 15:30

was watching lucky star again, then i saw ep 10 and in there Konata was calling Kagami "Kyo-Chan"

not only are kagami and kyou like clones of each other, and now their names can be read the same way too? ataya no?

Rembr

2008-03-07, 16:04

Joachim

2008-03-08, 00:52

Hiiragi and Fujibayashi do have an uncanny resemblence but the similarities are coincidental... unless Yoshimizu really liked Clannad.

And Kagami's name does not mean the same thing as Kyou's, although they can be read the same way.

let see:
- the younger sister got short hair while the older sister got long hair check!
- The younger sister is more.. well quiet, can't really do house work(cooking), while the older sister can cook well (guess what, kyou is excellent cook, while ryou is kinda lame)
- The younger sister is moe inducing, while the older sister.. well what is kyou again? :heh:
- They are twins :heh:

and yea while watching lucky star, i keep on getting the vibe of fujibayashi sister when watching hiiragi sister,but i don't know which come first, the fujibayashi sister concept or hiiragi sister, not that big deal though

dgreater1

2008-03-08, 06:17

Kyou did prioritise her sister's feelings but, at the same time, she was also using her to be close (not as in lovers, just close as friends/family) to Tomoya, due to her own insecurities. Kyou said that much herself. Ryou knew that much from the very beginning and didn't say a thing, though.

Anyway, as for Kyou's reaction in Chpt.18 (when she got angry after watching Tomoya being happy with Nagisa), anyone who has played Kotomi's route will know that was completely out of character. Kyou would never have behaved like that.

Actually, I didn't find it out of character. She's jealous about Nagisa, but she's not jealous about Kotomi, the reason is Kotomi has a different charm than Nagisa that makes them love her. Remember how Kyou described her as someone who tickles their maternal instincts? I believe someone someone who feels like that towards Kotomi can't be jealous of her. But anyway, what I believe is it didn't really occur to Kyou's mind that her plan to get Ryou x Tomoya will change to using Ryou to have Kyou x Tomoya :heh:

Klashikari

2008-03-08, 06:37

The other point is that Kotomi hardly has a "love potential" approach in comparison with Nagisa. Kotomi was more clingy in term of "need assistance" than really a love rival despite kyou mentioned.

The other stark difference is that kyou was proactive and trying to match Ryou during the anime, which did not happen in Kotomi's route. the difference is big enough to leave such different reaction and regret (i can't exactly see that as anger).
I don't see that OOC, especially that her "breakdown" is more like what happened with Ryou, not Nagisa. She wasn't devastated that nagisa won, but how Ryou figured out her true feelings.
This is adapted conjoncture of the fujibayashi twins route, it is perfectly fitting Kyou.

isteb-isteb

2008-03-08, 13:32

let see:
- The younger sister is more.. well quiet, can't really do house work(cooking), while the older sister can cook well (guess what, kyou is excellent cook, while ryou is kinda lame)
- The younger sister is moe inducing, while the older sister.. well what is kyou again? :heh:

in L*S though, It's ryou er... tsukasa who can cook while kagami can make pots explode. (according to konata, at least)

is the word you're looking for... dare i say it? "tsundere"? i don't know why so many fans make a huge fuss over this description of kyou. or is it the term itself they're fussing about?

Rembr

2008-03-08, 15:49

Anyway, as for Kyou's reaction in Chpt.18 (when she got angry after watching Tomoya being happy with Nagisa), anyone who has played Kotomi's route will know that was completely out of character. Kyou would never have behaved like that.Game and anime are supposed to be independent entities, although one is based off the other. That doesn't make them a complete clone.

By the way, how is the movie? Are those people 'in character' compared to the game?

Klashikari

2008-03-08, 16:10

By the way, how is the movie? Are those people 'in character' compared to the game?
Not. even. close.
For that matter, please rather check the CLANNAD the movie (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=43373) thread instead.

germanturkey

2008-03-08, 17:16

*sigh* i'm sad she lost. oh well, i'll play her arc in the game in the coming week. anyways, am i the only one who's offended by the criminal lack of Kyou in the last two eps?

kyoulover

2008-03-09, 00:47

*sigh* i'm sad she lost. oh well, i'll play her arc in the game in the coming week. anyways, am i the only one who's offended by the criminal lack of Kyou in the last two eps?

Don't worry...

of course i...as the one who now is really love kyou also offended with the lack of kyou in this recent episode...

although now i think i can accept this condition where she lost to nagisa though...

but still...i'll still love kyou the most.

Used Can

2008-03-09, 22:11

She's jealous about Nagisa, but she's not jealous about Kotomi, the reason is Kotomi has a different charm than Nagisa that makes them love her.
Kyou had grown to like Nagisa (in the game, and in the anime) as well. In Kotomi's route, she and Tomoya treated the three girls (Kotomi, Nagisa, and Ryou) pretty much the same. Also, Nagisa has that kind of childish charm which makes you like her (as in cute, sort-of-stubborn, and naive - not precisely in the same way as Kotomi, though) too.

My main point was that in Kotomi's route, it was made clear that she cared for Tomoya's feelings before hers. When she realised he probably liked Kotomi, all she did was to tell him Kotomi most likely liked him, ask him if he liked her, somewhat encourage him and then sort of tell him Ryou liked him too (although it was obvious Tomoya didn't feel anything for her). Then, a bit later - when it was clear Tomoya liked Kotomi - Kyou helped those two to be together.

The only time Kyou got jealous of someone was Tomoyo, and in her case, Kyou wasn't her friend, and didn't even like her. Yes, she went as far as to slap Tomoyo but, once Tomoyo and Tomoya talked to her, she understood, and even became Tomoyo's friend. In the anime, Kyou was already supposed to be good friends with Nagisa. Having her get angry at him for "being with Nagisa and not with Ryou" (even when she realised he was happy with Nagisa) was OOC, in my opinion.

We only saw her unable to control her feelings when she knew Tomoya liked her back (as in, Tomoya making it obvious he liked her). That never happened in the anime; the scene in the storage room didn't make up for that, since it was made clear it was a misunderstanding (both, in the game and the anime). This is why I think having her cry wasn't up to her character.

The other stark difference is that kyou was proactive and trying to match Ryou during the anime, which did not happen in Kotomi's route. the difference is big enough to leave such different reaction and regret (i can't exactly see that as anger).
Yes but, as I already mentioned, what made Kyou unstable (in her route) was Tomoya's feelings toward her. Tomoya didn't like her (in the romantic sense) in the anime, and didn't do anything to make her believe he did. Also, even in her route, she was pushing Tomoya aside.

dgreater1

2008-03-09, 23:02

My main point was that in Kotomi's route, it was made clear that she cared for Tomoya's feelings before hers. When she realised he probably liked Kotomi, all she did was to tell him Kotomi most likely liked him, ask him if he liked her, somewhat encourage him and then sort of tell him Ryou liked him too (although it was obvious Tomoya didn't feel anything for her).

That's not really what I see. Kyou realized that Kotomi likes him and was serious, and because it's Kotomi, she couldn't get jealous at all. She even said that despite Ryou knowing Kotomi is her love rival towards Tomoya, Ryou gladly accepted that Kotomi needs Tomoya more and gave up. Kyou didn't prioritized Tomoya's feeling but gave him to Kotomi, because she knew how much Kotomi treasures him.

Having her get angry at him for "being with Nagisa and not with Ryou" (even when she realised he was happy with Nagisa) was OOC, in my opinion.

Wait... she was angry? I didn't see her really angry, more like concerned jealousy because Nagisa and Tomoya were enjoying themselves together. Anyway, the crying part (devastated) was because she realized that Ryou knew about her feelings to Tomoya. That's why Ryou told her "Sorry" because she was using her despite she knew about Kyou's real feeling. Just imagine how it feels to know that your "get together" plan for your sister actually back fired at you. If you plan to get someone to love someone, you shouldn't be in love with that someone for it to truly work out.

Used Can

2008-03-10, 01:46

That's not really what I see. Kyou realized that Kotomi likes him and was serious, and because it's Kotomi, she couldn't get jealous at all. She even said that despite Ryou knowing Kotomi is her love rival towards Tomoya, Ryou gladly accepted that Kotomi needs Tomoya more and gave up. Kyou didn't prioritized Tomoya's feeling but gave him to Kotomi, because she knew how much Kotomi treasures him.
Yeah, I just checked that scene, and you're correct. However, she did approach Kotomi before she even knew about her feelings. [The day in which Kotomi wasn't supposed to make any new friends (because that's what Ryou's prediction said), and Kyou showed up.] Actually, even when Tomoya introduced them for the first time, despite Kyou being a bit cold, she still accepted to become Kotomi's friend.

The reason I'm mentioning this is because Tomoya went out of his way to try to make someone happy, and I'd be surprised if Kyou didn't notice that. Even then, she was the first girl to approach them, and offer them some help. (She may have had her own reasons to do so, though.)

Wait... she was angry? I didn't see her really angry, more like concerned jealousy because Nagisa and Tomoya were enjoying themselves together.
I guess, perhaps, my wording was incorrect.^^ I think anger wouldn't be the correct word, but resentment. Anyway, my point is still the same. Nagisa was also a close friend of Kyou's, and if something was clear about Kyou in the game, was that she cares a great deal about her family (at least, about Ryou) and her friends. The way in which she behaved in that scene was as if she just didn't care about that, even if it was clear that Tomoya and Nagisa were happy together (especially in Tomoya's case who had been quite depressed before Nagisa returned - Kyou simply acted as if she didn't notice/care about that, and that's what I mean with OOC).

Anyway, the crying part (devastated) was because she realized that Ryou knew about her feelings to Tomoya. That's why Ryou told her "Sorry" because she was using her despite she knew about Kyou's real feeling. Just imagine how it feels to know that your "get together" plan for your sister actually back fired at you. If you plan to get someone to love someone, you shouldn't be in love with that someone for it to truly work out.
I didn't see it that way; I guess you're correct. Thanks for pointing that out.

~ Lawliet ~

2008-03-24, 10:47

There are obvious similarities between Kyou and Kagami.

tripperazn

2008-03-24, 19:33

There are obvious similarities between Kyou and Kagami.

No, it's pure coincidence. Especially the name thing where "Kyou" can also be written as 鏡, which can also be pronounced "Kagami". (If you remember, Tsukasa's nickname for Kagami was "Kyou-chan" for this reason.) Hmm...

No, really, it probably is just coincidence since CLANNAD and Lucky Star published around the same time.

Furyofthewolves

2008-03-26, 20:58

No, it's pure coincidence. Especially the name thing where "Kyou" can also be written as 鏡, which can also be pronounced "Kagami". (If you remember, Tsukasa's nickname for Kagami was "Kyou-chan" for this reason.) Hmm...

No, really, it probably is just coincidence since CLANNAD and Lucky Star published around the same time.

Didn't the game come out way before Lucky Star did? And there is way too many similarities between Kagami and Kyou not to mention Tsukasa and Ryou... So Lucky Star really might very have been referencing Clannad with those two.

Shinigami_Mello

2008-03-26, 21:12

Nope, the original 4-koma of Lucky Star came out around 2004. The Clannad game came out then too.

I think it was just a coincidence.

YagamiKaze

2008-04-23, 07:37

I agree with it.If you ever considered that the author of Clannad wasn't the one of Lucky star you would know that it's just a coincidence.There isn't any relationship between Kyou and Kagami except that they are animation characters.

velocity7

2008-04-23, 13:36

I also say it's a coincidence as well.

Of course, if KyoAni decides to make another season of Lucky Star, expect some CLANNAD stuff going on there (they didn't hold back with that Kanon joke either).

Allithus

2008-05-01, 22:46

Lucky star and clannad anime are made by the same people but aren't they written by different people? I wonder how many people wants to see a after story of kyou, there's a fan made video on youtube it's just a knock off of Tomoyo After . I also wonder how many people think that Ryou over dominates Kyou's line in the clannad game.

Ice Block

2008-05-02, 05:28

Lucky star and clannad anime are made by the same people but aren't they written by different people? I wonder how many people wants to see a after story of Kyou, there's a fan made video on youtube it's just a knock off of Tomoyo After .
Yup. Same animators, different writers of source material.

Yes, I wan't to see a Kyou AS, and I want it to be on the same league as Nagisa AS. Oh why did Kai (main scenario writer for Kyou's route) have to leave Key after completing Clannad?! :frustrated:

I also wonder how many people think that Ryou over dominates Kyou's line in the clannad game.

Which line? Or does line = route/scenario? In that case, then I think Kyou's scenario should be more appropriately called the Fujibayashi Twins' scenario. In terms of focus, Kyou's the most shafted heroine in the game (with about as much focus as Yoshino Yuusuke), and that was even carried on to the anime adaptation :sad:.

YagamiKaze

2008-05-07, 06:47

Kyou's AS？It's seem that the Kyou's AS was made by some fans instead of the company KEY acrodding to what I heard.But I am exceoting for it no matter who made that.

willyvereb

2009-02-16, 12:28

Kyo's in some way the female version of Tomoya...in the VN it's even stated many times.
My favourite from the females of Clannad(Tomoyo and Fuko are the next then Nagissa).
Energetic, somewhat violent, but very caring and always places the others before her.
Question: What's Botan's 7 feats(i mean the remaining 4...i know the plussie, massager and pillow mode...) and the old Botan(in the After Story phase) able to do them?
Just imagining a mature wild boar doing the "massage mode":P...

kyosak

2009-02-18, 03:25

Kyou's route had some delicious drama and although I haven't beat the game 100%, it's easily my favorite. Kyou AS... One can only dream... Q.Q

wontaek

2009-02-24, 01:14

If you consider the how old Tomoya and Kyou is at current anime episodes, they are at prime age for marriage in Asia. Why can't Tomoya and Kyou have an 'accident' together when they meet?

willyvereb

2009-02-24, 04:56

I don't get it somehow...how? What kind of "accident"? Maybe i am not in the shape to quite get it...care to explain?

SageGaiGar

2009-02-24, 21:54

I don't get it somehow...how? What kind of "accident"? Maybe i am not in the shape to quite get it...care to explain?

I think the implication is a Bow Chikka Wow Wow kinda accident.

Not likely. Unhappy? Can always fanfic it.

Ithekro

2009-02-24, 22:07

Kyou struck me as being a likely responsible adult when she grow up. Though that fury might not go way so quickly, it still might become harder to get to scary Kyou and dictionary thrower if she's not constantly confronted with things that cause rage and/or tsun responces. We'll see, there are still several more episodes to go.

SaintessHeart

2009-02-25, 08:43

If I am not wrong, we can just Kyou as just any high school girl in the moments of growing up, with all that tsuntsun and anti-authority ness, but she is still a girl.

Let me make the last part of my point with her conversation with Tomoya when they are stuck in the P.E store in S1 Ep 17....

Kyou (blushing) : Of course, you are a boy, so I understand that you have an interest in it, but what we think of each other is important for something like this. Plus, I can't betray Ryou......

blah blah blah......

Tomoya : Alright, that is it! [starts stripping]

Kyou : Wait, are you serious?

Tomoya : I am serious! There is nothing for you to worry about now!

Kyou : But, but Ryou is...... Besides I don't know much about this......It's my first time too......

Tomoya : It is my first time too, but leave it to me!

Kyou : If you stare at me with such serious eyes, I'll.....

If she outright refuses to do it, she could have just killed Tomoya. But notice she is giving excuses......

This shows that she is still a normal girl after all, with all that raging hormones and that "I don't mind if it is you" thinking.

P.S She is still a purple-haired tsundere after all......

sgwc

2009-02-25, 23:09

I think in ep 20, Ushio said that her homeroom teacher is out for training or something and I also remember that Kyou's wish is to become a preschool teacher or something. Maybe Ushio's teacher is...Kyou???

Nosauz

2009-02-26, 00:28

SaintessHeart

2009-02-26, 04:53

Who doesn't like tsuntsun? I think that is an extremely cute character for a girl, hard on outside, soft on inside, both in the perverse and non-perverse way.

Kyou and Kagami are good examples. Purple haired, tsuntsun and ridiculously cute. Both of them even have short-haired twin sisters, though Kyou is less moral when it comes to dealing with challenges (she doesn't mind slamming the ball into a person's face back in S1), whereas Kagami would just berate Konata for doing last minute studying and such.

I remember there is a fanart in which Kagami was making fun of Kyou's threats and the latter was about to punch the former, with both their sisters trying to calm them down.

And also, her relationship with Tomoyo is undoubtedly the most hilarious back in S1. Kyou refers to her as "that Sakagami girl", and seems to harbor a great dislike for her. In that episode which Tomoyo came over to cook for Tomoya for the suspension and Kyou brings foot over, you can see her twitching with jealousy when the two girls are bickering over whose food to eat.

Kyou's character is the most exceptional in the series because of the things she do. I believe her most famous quote is "Can I punch you until you cry?" when Tomoya was laughing after imagining Kyou as a mahou shoujo spinning a wand (and YES that I love fish!).

And yes, Ushio's teacher is Kyou. Talk about coincidences, this is going to be the worst one. It would certainly be the best if Tomoya tells Ushio about all the stuff in the past, like her throwing dictionaries at anyone who pisses her off, fighting with Tomoyo over questionable issues, etc.

willyvereb

2009-03-01, 14:27

If you consider the how old Tomoya and Kyou is at current anime episodes, they are at prime age for marriage in Asia. Why can't Tomoya and Kyou have an 'accident' together when they meet?

Ok now i get what you mean...i was at ep 17 at the time so i don't know what you mean...
It has a chance, but considering that it's not included in the game and it's somehow makes Tomoya's love for Nagisa dull a little bit i think not.

Nowadays i imagine what would have happened if Tomoya chose Kyo and we went trough somewhat the same situations...how would Kyou react? Perhaps it would be somewhat "too real" and the whole Kyo X Tomoya married couple not as cute as the Nagisa X Tomoya one(if i consider the Kyou route 's end in the school days time then totaly lovely-dovely!...i felt somewhat Nagisa and Tomoya's relationship a little bit awkward... considering that they're supposed to be totaly in love).
Somehow i have a feeling that Kyou would be a greater help in restoring Tomoya's family life.
If i have started to compare Kyou to Nagissa then i continue:
Both live almost exclusively for others...but when Nagisa starts saddening because of other's self sacrafice, Kyo tries to find some meaning for it.
Perhaps it's natural that Kyou is more selfish, but it's partly because she's more complex person.Kyou is totaly outgoing whiole Nagissa is introverted(but she never relucant to help others). While Nagisa is silent, always nice and perhaps childish, Kyou tend to make hasty decisions, talkative and skilled in hiding her emotions and has proper goals and somewhat wide view of the world.
To cut it short: exept that both live for other people's sake they're polar opposites of each other. That's why it's interesting to think about how would she react in Nagissa's situation...Maybe i'll make a fanfiction about it.

kk2extreme

2009-03-07, 17:32

kyou totally steals the spotlight from ryou, just like kakami steals the spotlight from tsukasa in lucky star :heh:

i bet ryou is working in new hospital in town.

ThoHell

2009-03-08, 04:48

Ok now i get what you mean...i was at ep 17 at the time so i don't know what you mean...
It has a chance, but considering that it's not included in the game and it's somehow makes Tomoya's love for Nagisa dull a little bit i think not.

Nowadays i imagine what would have happened if Tomoya chose Kyo and we went trough somewhat the same situations...how would Kyou react? Perhaps it would be somewhat "too real" and the whole Kyo X Tomoya married couple not as cute as the Nagisa X Tomoya one(if i consider the Kyou route 's end in the school days time then totaly lovely-dovely!...i felt somewhat Nagisa and Tomoya's relationship a little bit awkward... considering that they're supposed to be totaly in love).
Somehow i have a feeling that Kyou would be a greater help in restoring Tomoya's family life.
If i have started to compare Kyou to Nagissa then i continue:
Both live almost exclusively for others...but when Nagisa starts saddening because of other's self sacrafice, Kyo tries to find some meaning for it.
Perhaps it's natural that Kyou is more selfish, but it's partly because she's more complex person.Kyou is totaly outgoing whiole Nagissa is introverted(but she never relucant to help others). While Nagisa is silent, always nice and perhaps childish, Kyou tend to make hasty decisions, talkative and skilled in hiding her emotions and has proper goals and somewhat wide view of the world.
To cut it short: exept that both live for other people's sake they're polar opposites of each other. That's why it's interesting to think about how would she react in Nagissa's situation...Maybe i'll make a fanfiction about it.

Dude, it has been over 5 years since Nagi died and Tomoyo's love for her didn't wane the slightest, the damn guy was a wreck for all those years (that's beyond the norm, of course there are some exceptions like there are exceptions to everything in life). But people wish for happiness for both themselves and the ones they love. Tomoyo has to move on, wish he is doing, come to term and realization that Nagi is gone. And I'm sure if Nagi's spirit were to talk to him, she would tell him he needs to move on as well and also find happiness. Man, in all actually, Tomoyo's love is way stronger than than the norm and real world. OK, basically all I'm trying to say is that: it wouldn't dull anything if Tomoyo fell in love again, it actually makes it all more realistic. Romanticizing about a single love your whole life sounds nice and all, but no..... especially since he's still damn young and all this happened so early in his life. He's like what, 23 or 24? Damn young and in his prime....... the freakin guy has already experience more emotional turmoil than most people do their whole life!