Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Pellissier]

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[Nightengale]

Definitely one of the more awkward episodes Shana episodes, in more ways than one.

Though if Konoe is really Bal Masque's plan, it's definitely working well. On the hindsight... :uhoh:

And... possibly volume 9 reenacted in the next episode? (( I spoiled myself. >_< ))

[ashlay]

stuff like this is my bread and butter in SnS. definitely deserves a solid 9.


well, they have a lot of fun playing around with their new triangle...err, square, this week. Shana and Yoshida both end up completely detached from Yuji by the end of episode, but in the end it ends up being because they're both completely thick headed dolts. also amazed how much it still hurts when Shana screws up this badly; felt terrible for the poor girl as she looks behind her and Yuji wasn't there. I mean Alastor could have said something, but noooo.

Yuji himself wasn't too bright this week. After being fairly intelligent about keeping Shana and Yoshida happy with the lunches back in episode 2, he gives Yoshida's lunchbox to Konoe without even asking. (at least Ogata reminds him -_-) I somewhat wonder if Konoe had asked for Shana's lunch first if Yuji would have given it without asking. Still, seems pretty clear to me that Yuji just views Konoe as a little sister of sorts, and if Yoshida and Shana would just be clear with him about their worries, they wouldn't even have this misunderstanding. >_< Also feels like Yuji realized something about Konoe...but he's being extremely naive if he did. oh, and thought it was amusing that despite the fact Yuji is supposed to be ridiculously powerful at this point, he still ends up being worthless (matrix dodges Shana's stick only to get wacked on the knuckles. :heh:)

anyway, I thought that Shana and Yoshida would actually team up a little because of all this, help each other out of the rut and what not, but seems like that might be a bit much to hope for. Seems like it's up to Chigusa to get Shana to stop being so stupid and be a little honest with Yuji next week.

[Rembr]

Bakate, stay! Stay! Staaaaaaaaay.....

World's balance, anyone? Does anyone care about world balance anymore?

Aaaaaand next episode, "Family Dinner."

Fuck yeah! Now that's an episode title!

[Phoenix14]

*Waits for Yuji to get badass powers*

Yuji's a BAMF.

[Wavedash]

An average episode, but I loved seeing the competition in the restaurant. Why don't we see more humor from Satou? It certainly adds more dimension than his normal sullen self.

Konoe could be clinically retarded...perhaps it's a lingering effect of being humanized from Hecate? (total speculation)

[Kang Seung Jae]

Konoe love :D

Also, the Yuji + Konoe evening scene was fantastic!!

[anselfir]

Hecate Is Love

[Freeter]

Konoe = win.

Yoshida + Shana + melonpan = SUPER WIN.

"Kurosuzo, Konoe" :cool:

[ashlay]

Konoe = win.

Yoshida + Shana + melonpan = SUPER WIN.

"Kurosuzo, Konoe" :cool:
I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking of lines from Shana-tan version Yoshida while watching this season...

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6403/11933297438761bcdly0.th.jpg (http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11933297438761bcdly0.jpg)
:uhoh:

[serenade_beta]

A nice, enjoyable episode.

Lots of Fumina, lots of jealousy.

Yuuji was just plain funny in this episode, in a good and funny way. He spends so much time with Fumina, and he even gives her his lunch which was from Shana and Kazumi. Of course, the result is that Kazumi and Shana start avoiding him. But he still has Fumina. Oh, and then there is that stare that Yuuji gave Fumina, but then he smiled after she smiled...

Ike gets ditched for Yuuji, though the whole class went "Jii~~~" at Ike when the teacher asked for someone...

Favorite scenes are definitely:
the ones with Fumina and the birds
the ones with Yuuji and Fumina and the birds
Fumina
Fumina's attachment to Yuuji (physically and mentally)
Oh, and Fumina chasing the butterfly and almost falling into the empty pool.

Fumina really seems to have an affinity with birds (and maybe other animals). Enjoyable scenes, those birds and Fumina.

[deffusse]

This ep. is definitely No. one of Second season for me. Lots of fun, lots of Hecate/Konoe, lots of angry Shana, Lots of melonpan, lots of Yoshida....:D It was absolutely great. I just couldn't wait for sub any more. My hypotetic question>>>> Is it posible that Fumina Konoe san is only a pupet, lead by Hecate? She is too suspicious, she ussualy act like an idiot, sometimes i think she has some secret power...... but doesn't matter she very cute, like my beloved Hecate;)

I think, it's no doubt that Konoe is only a trap set by Bal Masqué, to capture Yuugi

[arkxkra]

feel sad when shana so sad. That yuji stil dunno why shana angry, he is so stupid(?)..;). Dunno have chance to see Shana and Yoshida temporary ally... :heh:

[HayashiTakara]

When Shana is sad the world is sad :(

[Kinny Riddle]

This episode is totally original material, but I'm not complaining cause Hecate-lookalike is just too cute. :love:

If this is a visual novel, then Yuji has scored way too many "relationship points" with Hecate and has thus entered "Hecate's Story" permanently, since Shana and Kazumi are drifting away the next morning when Yuji walked to school with her. :heh:

When Kazumi saw Yuji just stared at Hecate at the park, I was half expecting her to hide behind her "Yoshida Exclusive" metal rod and smile evilly, as she has done in the Shana-tan Specials. :D

Just as expected, when a common enemy approaches, even the most bitter rivals have to put aside their differences and work together. To see Shana join Kazumi in the rooftop and having lunch with her, yup, they're gonna come up with a conspiracy to get rid of Hecate-clone next week. :D

Or maybe that isn't even necessary, as we see in the preview, Wilhelmina decides to take matters into her hands and rid the source of Shana's misery - Yuji - again. (Then it could be this part that incorporates parts of vol 9. ) Poor Yuji. :heh:

[sapphirearcz]

Nowwhere near the novels now.. but does anybody think that Yuji might pull up a fight in this season?? not being a weakling anymore

[X10A_Freedom]

That was pretty enjoyable. Although I feel Ike's present yet quite sidelined this season. I wish he had a better role during these slice-of-life episodes.

[FlameSparkZ]

Things don't look good for Shana and Kazumi...:uhoh:

And, is it me, or is Yuuji just amazed on how Konoe resembles Hecate.
That little chain on her wrist still tickles my interest...it must be somekind of Hougu that turns a Tomogara into a human.

[serenade_beta]

Quick update to the website makes me happy :)

The Family's Dining Table

Wilhelmina's training is harder than Shana's. Beside of everyone, Yuuji slowly gains a new power. Although it is not certain, Wilhelmina says that it is because he is "able to control power of existence now". On the other hand, Wilhelmina uses the excuse "bad circumstances" for the reason why Shana is resting from practice. But, the real reason is something else.

Shana's attitude deteriorates as her insuppressible feelings change to irritation.Then, finally, Shana pushes all of the irritation on Wilhelmina.

Yuuji, who might know of Shana's irritation or might not know, steps foot in Fumina's mansion the next day.

http://www.shakugan.com/story/img/2nd_ss/05_01.jpghttp://www.shakugan.com/story/img/2nd_ss/05_02.jpg
*sigh* More Urei no Shoujo-tachi... and Wilhelmina

Great! Stupid Yuuji isn't satisfied with just the park! Now he's...

Or maybe that isn't even necessary, as we see in the preview, Wilhelmina decides to take matters into her hands and rid the source of Shana's misery - Yuji - again. (Then it could be this part that incorporates parts of vol 9. ) Poor Yuji. :heh:

:(

Looks like that might not be the case. Poor Wilhelmina... (though she's not one of my favorite characters or anything).

[Kang Seung Jae]

Great! Stupid Yuuji isn't satisfied with just the park! Now he's...


If I hadn't thought that Konoe is a possible trap, I would have gone too......

[minhtam1638]

Ugh... I can't take reading posts and not posting my opinions, so register I must.

Anyway, this episode seems to serve as the prologue for the next, in the sense that with much character development going on, it seems as if something important and significant (that something being Bel-Peol and her "plan") will happen in the next. And to make sure that significant thing is of upmost significance, Shana and Kazumi have to be affected, although not directly.

Something seems to be missing in this episode for me, so I'll give this episode a 7 out of 10.

[newby]

i just dont like the fact that shana is sad lol

[rozenfreak123]

What a great episode! Not only was Konoe's timid and confused state of mind was adorable but the way she's with Yuji was precious. Also how Shana's and Kazumi's jealousy towards Konoe showing feelings towards Yuji so easily has made them jealous and envious. I mean at the end it seems they both were utterly defeated and have no chance for Yuji now. Can't wait to see the next episode to see if there is a twist such as Konoe really is Hecate or rather Bal Masque finally makes their move or seeing the insanely hilarous Professor again.

[FlareKnight]

When Shana is sad the world is sad :(
Truer words have not been spoken. :(

Never did enjoy episodes that leave me as frustrated as Shana is right now. These things always put her at a disadvantage with her difficulties expressing what's bothering her. Can only revert to her usual behavior in situations like this. Get angry at herself, her emotions, Yuji, and Konoe. Withdrawing herself away and turning inward. Seems like she might need to get stabbed through the gut again just for Yuji to clue in.

Amazing really how a guy who can be very sharp in one instance can be utterly clueness the next. He might not even know somethings bothering Yoshida. At least with Shana it's pretty clear she's upset even if he has no idea whatsoever what might be the cause.

If Konoe is a plot by Bal Masques to create a rift between Yuji and Shana it's working pretty well. Yoshida and Shana are on the edge and we'll see how they move from here. Seriously need Konoe to be an emeny or trap of some kind since that makes it a whole lot easier to deal with.

I've never seen such a clueless person in my life. Konoe really seems the type to see a bird flying and walk off a cliff after it.

[Pinion]

8 points from me. Konoe makes Shana confused and sad :mad: Anyway the reason for not getting 9 or more is because of the weak ending.

I'm wondering - is there any room for Konoe?
I mean Shana has bleeded and sacrificed herself for Yuji and Kazumi making lunch for him everyday + the fact Yuji knows Kazumi loves him, it just can't be fair with Konoe ending up with Yuji. Even though I feel it won't happen.
If she can't end up with Yuji, then she must exit the show at some point. There is no room for this square/'triangle' through the entire season imo. What is left for Konoe?
If she is Hecate and the feelings towards Yuji are real(whether its love or not), when she reveals herself, then this could be interesting. Or she could leave the city by a random reason. And the last option could be death. Sacrificing herself or collateral damage.
I hope for option 1, but expect option 3.

[Major1138]

There's got to be something more to Konoe than what we've seen. Her resemblance to Hecate and her attachment to Yuji are far, far too much to be a coincidence - something that Yuji himself has pointed it out again, to his credit (he still seems a bit clueless as to why Shana would be upset though).

If it is a plot by the Bal Masque, my first guess would be that it's an attempt to drive a wedge between Shana and Yuji (which seems to be working well). My second guess would be that it's not actually a full-on plan, but some sort of unanticipated side-effect from Yuji's previous encounter with Hecate. Either way, full credit to the show for not rushing to resolve it right way. Hopefully the payoff will be worth it.

One thing - has the show actually explained what the Keeper actually is? As far as I remember, no one's come out and said what it actually does. It seems to be some sort of "anti-theft" property, but is that all there is to it?

[Westlo]

Gets an 8 from me, the epic supersize meal contest was fun, Shana with ponytail = <3, more Hecate is always good.

[himemiya613]

yuji is really slow in the head...

[Rhyel]

Boring episode, nothing happens, just more "no brain" Hecate. 5/10

[alvinkhorfire]

The reason Sato staged an eating challange with Yuji was because while Yuji is training with Shana, he did nothing. I hope that at least that Marjorie can teach some fighting skills to Tanaka and Sato even though their ability is limited since they are just humans. Even the ability of Yuji greatly exceed them, at least for now, Sato and Yuji have same stomach capacity.

It is cute to see Shana enjoying eating ice cream. Hope that she don't gain too much weight from overeating.

Then again, I can't stand seeing Shana being sad. Buck up, Yuji. Stop making Shana sad.

[minhtam1638]

It's true. When Shana's sad, the world is sad. SnS II could turn out to be a very depressing anime, since Shana is on the road to pain and heartbreak. All we can hope for is that the ending is a really happy one.

[4as]

Now I pretty much hate Hecate. She so deserve her name.
All that relatonship build over the first season now going straight downhill.
...and to think this season started so well ~~

[S_K]

IM still puzzled on the fact that the creators of this series added Konoe
Im wondering if they just added her because shes going to play an important role in the future or if they just added it to Sakai's lets say harem :heh:
nonetheless, it was entertaining to see Yoshida and Shana jealous

[FlareKnight]

Gotta love Shana with her icecream. Taking a couple of those jumbo supplies of it without breaking a sweat. No way was she going to share it with the others.

Hopefully they can resolve things with this Konoe. Lot easier to fight with the enemies than dealing with the emotional issues.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Quite disappointed with the episode, way too much focus on Konoe which I felt it was unnecessary and well I don't really like how they keep focusing on their relationship issue rather Bal Masque.

[Midonin]

Something's ticking in the background, and I hope to find out what soon. Though if Hecate was blending into the human world, I think she wouldn't be so...naive about it. Innocence is cute and all, but she has the mind of a child. At least the basic set of survival skills should be there. Unless she's doing this to get Yuji, and I won't discount that. Crazy as it is.

[Eternal Haruhist]

I'm wondering - is there any room for Konoe?
I mean Shana has bleeded and sacrificed herself for Yuji and Kazumi making lunch for him everyday + the fact Yuji knows Kazumi loves him, it just can't be fair with Konoe ending up with Yuji. Even though I feel it won't happen.
If she can't end up with Yuji, then she must exit the show at some point. There is no room for this square/'triangle' through the entire season imo. What is left for Konoe?
If she is Hecate and the feelings towards Yuji are real(whether its love or not), when she reveals herself, then this could be interesting. Or she could leave the city by a random reason. And the last option could be death. Sacrificing herself or collateral damage.
I hope for option 1, but expect option 3.
I truly think that the worst alternative is for SnSII to turn into a harem type anime, the fact that post like "is there any room for Konoe" exist only prove that that are too many harem elements in the show and it's gonna make the main theme (i truly expect this coming soon!) a bit less significant.
If Fumina is only there as a harem element, it's really useless and a mistake made by the production staff i think.

[Setonai]

This episode is crap.. like the last 3 eps..

[holyman282]

Quite disappointed with the episode, way too much focus on Konoe which I felt it was unnecessary and well I don't really like how they keep focusing on their relationship issue rather Bal Masque.

On the contrary, the relationship issues play an integral part to the show, this show is more about how the main character's relationships develop when faced with challenges like Bal Masque and the likes. If you just want to see plain fighting and evil super villains then I suggest you go watch more shounen orientated shows like Naruto, cause you can't have Shana without the relationship issues, it's what makes Shana enjoyable.

Now I pretty much hate Hecate. She so deserve her name.
All that relatonship build over the first season now going straight downhill.
...and to think this season started so well ~~

The name Hecate derives from the goddess of wilderness and child birth.. I really don't see how she so deserves her name, are you implying that Hecate sounds a bit like hate?

This episode is crap.. like the last 3 eps..

Don't say things like that without giving justification, otherwise you may put people, who haven't watched shana off based on your comments.

As for me I really enjoyed this ep, the reactions made my Shana and Yoshida's gradual jealousy was perfectly done.

I also have to praise whoever's directing this for some very effective camera shots, especially the ones with both Yuji's and Shana's feet walking in opposite directions. Really shows the growing distance between the two due to Konoe. I also liked the scene where Shana turns around only to see no one there.. Really these scenes are simple yet effective and emotionally stimulating.. I very much prefer those simple scenes then say the extremely, over the top artistic approach to Ef.

I also enjoy how they displayed Yuji's progress, unlike shounen shows, he doesn't become super powered over the course of several ep. On the contrary, although Alastor said he had power of existence equal to that of a King of Guze, his inexperience still means he's no match for shana. Truly it takes time to become powerful and Shakugan no Shana displays his progress, slowly yet excellently through the course of the first season and continuing into the second.

I am also a sucker for shows where the lessons and themes are integrated smoothly into the anime rather then some shows where a character describes the entire background, context and theme, making it feel unnatural. Here Ike's brief scene where he encouraged Yoshida to go after them, was quite deep. It shows that Ike although having feelings for Yoshida, is still conscious of her feelings towards Yuji as well as the fact that he knows Yuji is still his friend. It's those brief scenes with alot of meaning hidden in them that attracts me. Makes me feel that each second is a worthwhile watch.

Really enjoyed the scene with Yuji and Konoe, the bird landing on Yuji's shoulders show both a connection being established between Konoe and Yuji as well as emphasising the growing distance that's appearing between him and the other girls.

The ending scene was also good, meaning can be conveyed without saying a word and I think Shana and Yoshida are connecting more and more as Konoe cuts in on their private time with Yuji.

[serenade_beta]

This episode is crap.. like the last 3 eps..

Well, there is more "crap" coming in the future. Better brace yourself, if you don't enjoy it.

On the contrary, the relationship issues play an integral part to the show, this show is more about how the main character's relationships develop when faced with challenges like Bal Masque and the likes. If you just want to see plain fighting and evil super villains then I suggest you go watch more shounen orientated shows like Naruto, cause you can't have Shana without the relationship issues, it's what makes Shana enjoyable.



The name Hecate derives from the goddess of wilderness and child birth.. I really don't see how she so deserves her name, are you implying that Hecate sounds a bit like hate?



Don't say things like that without giving justification, otherwise you may put people, who haven't watched shana off based on your comments.

As for me I really enjoyed this ep, the reactions made my Shana and Yoshida's gradual jealousy was perfectly done.

I also have to praise whoever's directing this for some very effective camera shots, especially the ones with both Yuji's and Shana's feet walking in opposite directions. Really shows the growing distance between the two due to Konoe. I also liked the scene where Shana turns around only to see no one there.. Really these scenes are simple yet effective and emotionally stimulating.. I very much prefer those simple scenes then say the extremely, over the top artistic approach to Ef.

I also enjoy how they displayed Yuji's progress, unlike shounen shows, he doesn't become super powered over the course of several ep. On the contrary, although Alastor said he had power of existence equal to that of a King of Guze, his inexperience still means he's no match for shana. Truly it takes time to become powerful and Shakugan no Shana displays his progress, slowly yet excellently through the course of the first season and continuing into the second.

I am also a sucker for shows where the lessons and themes are integrated smoothly into the anime rather then some shows where a character describes the entire background, context and theme, making it feel unnatural. Here Ike's brief scene where he encouraged Yoshida to go after them, was quite deep. It shows that Ike although having feelings for Yoshida, is still conscious of her feelings towards Yuji as well as the fact that he knows Yuji is still his friend. It's those brief scenes with alot of meaning hidden in them that attracts me. Makes me feel that each second is a worthwhile watch.

Really enjoyed the scene with Yuji and Konoe, the bird landing on Yuji's shoulders show both a connection being established between Konoe and Yuji as well as emphasising the growing distance that's appearing between him and the other girls.

The ending scene was also good, meaning can be conveyed without saying a word and I think Shana and Yoshida are connecting more and more as Konoe cuts in on their private time with Yuji.

*clap* *clap*

Well said. :)

[Terrestrial Dream]

On the contrary, the relationship issues play an integral part to the show, this show is more about how the main character's relationships develop when faced with challenges like Bal Masque and the likes. If you just want to see plain fighting and evil super villains then I suggest you go watch more shounen orientated shows like Naruto, cause you can't have Shana without the relationship issues, it's what makes Shana enjoyable. What I want is more of balance, rather focusing on just the relationships I also want some action. I think that the first season did very well on balancing these two, but so far the second season has been focusing more on relationship. And looking at the preview it seems it will be like that next episode. Though I was disappointed it still was enjoyable to watch.

[Mentar]

I've got to agree with holyman282. In fact, the relationship dynamics are currently the PRIMARY driver of development, and I commend the guts of the creators to produce such an episode which perfectly captures what it's all about, "Melancholy Girls".

Seriously, what is wrong with you guys? Can't stomach one episode of unpleasant developments without moaning? I remember the complaints that the Tomogara tossed into the first three episodes were too much cannon fodder, and now, while a larger plot is slowly built up _without_ a brawl of the day, you're unhappy either? Guys, if you want action nonstop, for the love of god go watch Naruto or Bleach, this is not what Shana was ever about.

I for one am really happy about the pace, and about the skillful way they started to show the corrosive effect Konoe has on the Shana/Yoshida couple. Sounds like the development will continue and intensify next ep, should make for some good drama. Poor Wilhelmina though ;)

[grey_moon]

Personally I don't like how Yuji is being depicted right now. Just because they keep stressing at each turn how observant and sharp he is. Why hasn't he realised that him being Konoe is pissing Shana off? I don't even think the usual excuse of he has no experience in the affairs of the heart can be used as Shana has been quite pointed in her attitude over Konoe.

There is only one reason I can see how it explains Yuji's actions and that actually coincides with what I believe Ike thinks and that is Yuji deep down inside just likes the attention of lots of pretty girls with no thought of the consequences of his actions on them.

[holyman282]

Personally I don't like how Yuji is being depicted right now. Just because they keep stressing at each turn how observant and sharp he is. Why hasn't he realised that him being Konoe is pissing Shana off? I don't even think the usual excuse of he has no experience in the affairs of the heart can be used as Shana has been quite pointed in her attitude over Konoe.

Yes Yuji is sharp and observant, but only at detecting tomogora and that in itself is a result of the training and the Reiejo mago buried within.. Detecting Tomogora and understanding a women's heart is completely different, you could even say they're worlds apart.

[kimchipride]

boring episode. Sigh hope next episode is better.

[grey_moon]

Yes Yuji is sharp and observant, but only at detecting tomogora and that in itself is a result of the training and the Reiejo mago buried within.. Detecting Tomogora and understanding a women's heart is completely different, you could even say they're worlds apart.

I have to disagree with that, because a lot of the series one Yuji moments were things that surprised both Shana and Alastor. For example spotting the bell thing, and there were plenty of others which made me think gosh that boy is a bit bright.

In regards to the training Alastor has made comments that make me think that he didn't expect Yuji to pick up on things so quickly. The whole show is dotted with Yuji is brighter then the average bear scenes and comments. No way do I think you can attribute it to just the Reiji Maigo or to training which he hardly started in S1.

[Julius Firefocht]

There is only one reason I can see how it explains Yuji's actions and that actually coincides with what I believe Ike thinks and that is Yuji deep down inside just likes the attention of lots of pretty girls with no thought of the consequences of his actions on them.

No, Empress forbid that Shana II turns into Nice Boat II. That would be sad and would do no justice to the novels.

[holyman282]

I have to disagree with that, because a lot of the series one Yuji moments were things that surprised both Shana and Alastor. For example spotting the bell thing, and there were plenty of others which made me think gosh that boy is a bit bright.

In regards to the training Alastor has made comments that make me think that he didn't expect Yuji to pick up on things so quickly. The whole show is dotted with Yuji is brighter then the average bear scenes and comments. No way do I think you can attribute it to just the Reiji Maigo or to training which he hardly started in S1.

Off course I'm not saying he's a complete idiot... It's just that Shana has never ever told him she liked him.. All we get are little jealous comments, like "don't worry about her anymore" ect.. Which you really can't expect Yuji to act upon unless she outright tells him she's jealous. I think it partly Shana's fault that this situation has gotten out of hand, telling him not to hang out with certain girls yet not giving any justifiable reasons why.

He actually did show insight at the beginning of ep 1 of the second season, when he thought that shana might of confessed to him last season, but after Shana's ambiguous answer, he can't really be sure.

Like i said i'm not saying he's stupid and completely clueless towards a girl's feelings, but given the way Shana behaves, he isn't quite sure whether she likes him or not. I mean he knows Yoshida likes him but is never certain about Shana.

[grey_moon]

Off course I'm not saying he's a complete idiot... It's just that Shana has never ever told him she liked him.. All we get are little jealous comments, like "don't worry about her anymore" ect.. Which you really can't expect Yuji to act upon unless she outright tells him she's jealous. I think it partly Shana's fault that this situation has gotten out of hand, telling him not to hang out with certain girls yet not giving any justifiable reasons why.

He actually did show insight at the beginning of ep 1 of the second season, when he thought that shana might of confessed to him last season, but after Shana's ambiguous answer, he can't really be sure.

Like i said i'm not saying he's stupid and completely clueless towards a girl's feelings, but given the way Shana behaves, he isn't quite sure whether she likes him or not. I mean he knows Yoshida likes him but is never certain about Shana.

Each time Yuji shows any interest in another girl Shana gets really uptight and angry. Even if I do my best to put my feet in Yuji's shoes I have a hard time believing anyone but the most socially inept would miss all those signs. If he was a social outcast then I would understand, but Yuji is shown as pretty accepted in his class.

In regards to Shana and Yuji's relationship, in the last few episodes of S1 they did more for each other then most peoples confessions equal. I love you, I kiss you, I shag you. What are they compared to I am willing to give up my life for you. They both showed a willingness to do that for each other, and especially when there was no need for them do so. Actually if it wasn't for their feelings for each other then I think S2 would be about Shana and the Reiji Maigo in someone else. Also for Yuji's part he went into the Alastor's flames with Shana thinking that is her last moment. He didn't need to do that, especially since I believe he thought it would be his too.

[holyman282]

Off course anyone would figure out that shana's behaviour indicates that she likes Yuji, I kind of had a feeling that Yuji knows this too... My justification for that would be the first ep..

Off course even though the evidence which points with a 99.9% certainty that Shana likes him, there is still that lingering 0.1% that he isn't sure, this combined with his confusion as to who he really likes (Yoshida or Shana) means that he probably wanted to keep things the way it is for now due to his uncertainty in terms of Shana's feelings.

I mean during S1 he was pretty touched by Yoshida's feelings too and since she already told him that she likes him where as Shana hasn't, I don't think he'd be telling Yoshida that he doesn't like her anytime soon. Also I doubt he sees Konoe as a possible romantic interest.. He takes more of an elder brotherly role towards her. Which justifies to a certain degree his confusion as to why Shana is so angry.

It's also interesting to note that early on in this ep, Yoshida never really saw Konoe as a threat, where Shana already has. It was only that scene in the park which Yoshida happens to stumble upon that got her jealous. So in part you could say that Shana's jealousy maybe early on was uncalled for.

[grey_moon]

It's also interesting to note that early on in this ep, Yoshida never really saw Konoe as a threat, where Shana already has. It was only that scene in the park which Yoshida happens to stumble upon that got her jealous. So in part you could say that Shana's jealousy maybe early on was uncalled for.

It maybe uncalled for, but it is in no way out of her character. Whilst I believe several of Yuji's actions have been written out of character just to heighten the romantic elements of the series. The biggest example was during s1 when he legged it after Yoshida during the festival.

Personally I think that Shana with her hardened battle experience can sense an opponent be it love or war :p

@Julius Firefocht - I hope so too. I just want things to be written with some continuity in their characters. I have no problems with other love elements being added, but when people* act stupid to obvious situations for no apparent reason it really gets my goat.

*Not people as in the forum, but people as in characters in the show.

[holyman282]

@Julius Firefocht - I hope so too. I just want things to be written with some continuity in their characters. I have no problems with other love elements being added, but when people* act stupid to obvious situations for no apparent reason it really gets my goat.

*Not people as in the forum, but people as in characters in the show.

True that it could get annoying, but it's all in the name of dramatic irony. If the characters see and understand what we the audience does then the show would be much less interesting.. Within any series, there is always a time when the audience can discern a person's emotions better then the said character, an example would be when Shana in this ep asked why she feels that way, well I could of had the same reaction you had with Yuji and yell "Shana you're in love and freaking jealous"..

[grey_moon]

True that it could get annoying, but it's all in the name of dramatic irony. If the characters see and understand what we the audience does then the show would be much less interesting.. Within any series, there is always a time when the audience can discern a person's emotions better then the said character, an example would be when Shana in this ep asked why she feels that way, well I could of had the same reaction you had with Yuji and yell "Shana you're in love and freaking jealous"..

I do try my best to put my self in the shoes of the character before head butting my keyboard. I don't mind dramatic irony, but I am fearful of a ZnT turn around (although that was just plain stupid rather then dramatic). My favourite depiction of viewer v character view was defiantly in Clannad when we see the first fight scene, I nearly died from laughter.

Another thing that annoyed me with Yuji was the old interrupt someone when that are about to say something difficult. Someone fumbles trying desperately to say something, Yuji going Shana? doesn't help her, when will they learn to shut up and listen before opening their gobs!!!!

In regards to Shana's behaviour I don't think that is out of character as she is dealing with something new. She basically is experiencing jealousy of that level for the first time. Her character throughout the show has always been one of someone who never has had real human interaction. Yuji's case is different, he has the memories and feelings of Yuji the humie, so him being a torch doesn't count. He has a good friend, a caring mum and seems to interact well with his class. He shows the ability to discern someone else's feelings when he spotted that Hirai liked Ike. So imho for him to miss so many big barn door clues is out of the character that the writers have built up around him.

[holyman282]

Honestly I don't think Yuji is experienced concerning girls liking him.. It's just that feeling i get when i watched the first ep of S1, so I would say that he would be on character too. the thing is though, I'm actually seeing his character grow, he is realising things slowly, even thought Shana might of confessed to him in ep1, where as shana throughout S1 obviously liked him, yet she hasn't changed that much reguarding her realisation of her feelings towards Yuji.

That's dramatic irony if anything. At least Yuji get some of the hints, when someone likes him.

[grey_moon]

Honestly I don't think Yuji is experienced concerning girls liking him.. It's just that feeling i get when i watched the first ep of S1, so I would say that he would be on character too. the thing is though, I'm actually seeing his character grow, he is realising things slowly, even thought Shana might of confessed to him in ep1, where as shana throughout S1 obviously liked him, yet she hasn't changed that much reguarding her realisation of her feelings towards Yuji.

That's dramatic irony if anything. At least Yuji get some of the hints, when someone likes him.

But the thing is he does know about things like romantic relationships between people. Shana doesn't so it is not fair to compare their situations. Yuji has spotted and acted on behalf of Ike and Hirai, and even got angry at his best friend's lack of noticing Hirai (even though it wasn't Ike's fault). Yuji in terms of dealing with relationships has taken a few steps backwards since epi 1 s1.

I think its quite difficult to say what Yuji is feeling over Konoe. He says he is just looking after her, but after the bird scene I now have a few doubts (which is maybe what Yoshida felt when she saw them). If he just kept the old nice guy routine, I could accept the whole big brother act, but as soon as he went she looks just like Hecate, I thought uh oh! Stockholm's syndrome!!!! Hecate and Yuji kinda bonded at the end of s1 and all his thoughts and feelings poured into her. There must have been some form of bonding going on. Well tbh it was more like rape then anything else....

[holyman282]

lol this debate is getting confusing, I'll just try to re-evaluate what i'm arguing against. That Yuji, although certainly has become sharper, does not nessecarily mean sharper in the romance department.

Certainly he's not stupid in that department but, I really can't see how you can blame him, when Shana herself hasn't come forward with her own emotions. Shana needs to come to terms with her own emotions before we can go about blaming Yuji for paying closer attention to a girl that would fall off a cliff chasing a butterfly if she wasn't watched.

This is my last post for tonight. Tired and we'll continue this tomorrow if you're still up for it lol.

Good discussion by the way.

[grey_moon]

lol this debate is getting confusing, I'll just try to re-evaluate what i'm arguing against. That Yuji, although certainly has become sharper, does not nessecarily mean sharper in the romance department.

Certainly he's not stupid in that department but, I really can't see how you can blame him, when Shana herself hasn't come forward with her own emotions. Shana needs to come to terms with her own emotions before we can go about blaming Yuji for paying closer attention to a girl that would fall off a cliff chasing a butterfly if she wasn't watched.

This is my last post for tonight. Tired and we'll continue this tomorrow if you're still up for it lol.

Good discussion by the way.

Ooooo I not actually blaming him. I'm blaming the writers! Sorry I should make my posts a bit more clearer when I am saying the way Yuji acts compared to the way the writers have missed the consistency in writing the way Yuji acts. I do realise that it is very much up to the interpretation of the viewer and I do respect your point of view and think that a lot of what you say does make sense and broadens my own insight into the show.

I guess the reason I peg Shana and Yuji as having something of a relationship is because the end of S1 imho they skipped all the boring stuff like confessing, snogging and shagging and went straight for the I'll give up my life for you. That left a huge impact on me and S2 kinda trivialised what I thought was a momentous and touching set of scenes. One thing that does come to mind is maybe what is happening to Shana and Yuji is the same thing as what is happening with our discussion. Maybe Shana thinks "hey I gave up my life for you, we should have something special going on between us". Whilst Yuji is thinking "hey where is the confession, without it I have no idea how you are thinking"... Actually in all fairness to Yuji I personally always say that women should come out and say what they think as most men are stupid and cannot read their minds :p

The thing that really amused me over the whole looking after Konoe thing was Yoshida's racking up of brownie points using it. Konoe does seem a wee bit lacking in the department of common sense, but I am waiting for a shocking reason for that. But Yoshida just slipped into the whole we look after her (aka mum and dad) routine. Nice one Yoshida!

just in case anyone was wondering, no matter how much i am whining about Yuji's lack of romantic insight, I am actually really enjoying the show :p

look forward to your reply tomorrow :)

[tabun]

My hypotetic question>>>> Is it posible that Fumina Konoe san is only a pupet, lead by Hecate?[,,,]I think, it's no doubt that Konoe is only a trap set by Bal Masqué, to capture Yuugi

I don't know why not more of you are having thoughts in this direction. From what I read in this thread so far, most of you are concerned about the relationships and the relationships alone. True, the interaction between characters, especially Yuji, Shana and Yoshida already was an important part of SnS I, but it was never a topic of it's own right (although a major driving force at times, I will admit that much).

Something's ticking in the background, and I hope to find out what soon.
Indeed, this is what I think as well. For speculations see spoiler tag below.


Hecate absorbed all of Yuji's emotions and memories at the end of season 1 before being separated from him. My guess is now that Bal Masqe is using what remains of these both inside Hecate to enforce a plan (of which I dare not even speculate yet) obviously directed at Yuji.

Would it be too far off to think of Konoe as some sort of clone whose personality is derived from Yuji's emotions, so as to appeal to him as much as possible? The scene in the park - the second one, with Yuji and Konoe smiling - leads me to believe something along the lines of good bait catches fine fish. He obvously has become that much attached to her - and it seems pretty much normal to him, he seems to have no suspicions or doubts at all. This is also displayed in his denseness towards Shana and Yoshida.

Hecate (and thus the rest of Bal Masque) knows that Yuji and Shana share a very strong bond. It would only be natural for them to try and split this bond, making it easier to prey on Yuji (to gain the Reiji Maigo).

I think of Konoe more of some limited clone, some sort of container. The total absence of common sense and such in her character support this even more. In this light, the scene at the end of episode 3 would fit as well, as their "clone" has proven it's validity as a "human being" at least to Yuji (thus "All is going well.").

Before the Konoe fans start bringing forth their torches and pitchforks - it's just speculation :upset:

What I want is more of balance, rather focusing on just the relationships I also want some action. I think that the first season did very well on balancing these two, but so far the second season has been focusing more on relationship. And looking at the preview it seems it will be like that next episode.
The question is: is it really this bad? If, from the 6th episode on, there would be massive action going on, or some unexpected plot twists, would you not be glad the stage has been set rather diligently while there was time? Personally, I am pleased with the amount of emphasis on the inter character relations, although not overly excited - after all, it is just speculation.

For now, I will bear with the lack of "action" and take my time watching the very beatiful screenplay. Episode 4 was the second one I watched in widescreen and h264, and it is worth every MB in excess of the xvid version. I am very impressed!


Although...
When Shana is sad the world is sad :(
*sigh* true, true :(

[Quakis]

Not a bad episode, though I'm never too fond of these jealousy moments in relationships, probably because they tend to drag on too much. Can't wait until Margery Daw gets back into the action though, I'll miss her during the action scenes. The ramen scene was great though. I wonder if there'd be a possibility for a Shakugan no Shana: Fumoffu, :p

[christinemarie]

Good episode, Fumiko really have drawn Yuji to her attention. The guy that would attend to her problem in school, also when she's going home, also when she's going to school. And he worries like hell searching for her when she disappears only to be found on the same place he was shown by Fumiko summoned the bird. She cares a lot for birds, (I doubt the cat for some reason). With the last episode and this episode, I can say that Fumiko is Hecate probably Bel use some sort of memory and ability as a Tomogara seal on her. (A good example is from Death Note when Light Yagami ask Ryuk to erase his memories and disown the Death Note, and just returned due to the Death Note returning to him later) Some sort of hougo that do the same trick. Anyway it just my speculation of mine.:)

[grey_moon]

Hecate did spew out a lot of existence at the end of S1, maybe Konoe is a part of that existence that formed into a torch. So Konoe could be actually a child from the union of Yuji and Hecate, so Konoe would feel comfort from being near Yuji.

*edit*

scratch that, if she was a torch yuji would see it

[OverFunk]

Eh... Suddenly harem drama?

I must say Yuji is on his way of becoming powerful. But in love-related issues, he is as smart as Makoto. No seriously, being so close with Konoe, and not noticing at all about Shana and Kazumi. And for moments he didn't care.

But it could be that he's unconciously "attracted" to Konoe/Hecate(?), as one of the scenes at the park showed.

The only good thing I got out of this, were the lulz at the restaurant scene, and when they showed the difference in maturity between Shana and Kazumi. At least the latter knows about her feelings. Also, that Satou seems to be jealous of Yuji's training. I wonder if he knows that Yuji used the sword he couldn't lift.

Still, this show needs less drama and more action.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Nice episode. It is nice to see that the girls are not happy happy joy joy bunch. They have feelings and it shows.

The stakes in emotional battle is getting interesting. Let's see how the anime story render it.

[Sorrow-K]

Yes! This is the best harem ever!

Really enjoyed this episode. In fact, enjoying this season a lot more than the last. Hecate... I mean Konoe... is, ultimately, a plot device, but I certainly don't mind, since it's bringing the good stuff that's been kept in the undercurrent in most of the recent arcs to the fore, ie, the jealousy and frustration and pent up emotions of all the characters (even Yoshida). It does make for a really good love-rectangle, if only because there's so much emotion involved, but also because we're at the stage in the series where all the characters make sense, and we don't need things spoon fed to us anymore.

I like where this is going. The action stuff in this franchise doesn't oft keep me interested, but this stuff does. We have the pins all set up. Now all we need is progress.

[lua thien]

Just wait til Pheles shows up... oh wait, she's after the Reiji Maigo only.

I wonder if Yuji might sense that Konoe might be Hecate by merely looking into her eyes, which are windows to the soul. It's probably something that no Unrestricted Method or Guze Lord could interpret.

[Davidj]

An average episode, but I loved seeing the competition in the restaurant. Why don't we see more humor from Satou? It certainly adds more dimension than his normal sullen self.

Konoe could be clinically retarded...perhaps it's a lingering effect of being humanized from Hecate? (total speculation)

Konoe is doing pretty well for someone who is only a few months old.

Something's ticking in the background, and I hope to find out what soon. Though if Hecate was blending into the human world, I think she wouldn't be so...naive about it. Innocence is cute and all, but she has the mind of a child. At least the basic set of survival skills should be there. Unless she's doing this to get Yuji, and I won't discount that. Crazy as it is.

I don't think Hecate would be capable of loving animals the way Konoe does.

[holyman282]

I guess the reason I peg Shana and Yuji as having something of a relationship is because the end of S1 imho they skipped all the boring stuff like confessing, snogging and shagging and went straight for the I'll give up my life for you. That left a huge impact on me and S2 kinda trivialised what I thought was a momentous and touching set of scenes. One thing that does come to mind is maybe what is happening to Shana and Yuji is the same thing as what is happening with our discussion. Maybe Shana thinks "hey I gave up my life for you, we should have something special going on between us". Whilst Yuji is thinking "hey where is the confession, without it I have no idea how you are thinking"... Actually in all fairness to Yuji I personally always say that women should come out and say what they think as most men are stupid and cannot read their minds :p

Confessing, may be the "boring" stuff as you say but it's an important step to developing a relationship. By skipping it, they have essentially started their relationship on a bad footing, it's like learning to walk before you can crawl.

As that is the case, we are now having Shana angry because of Yuji's attachment towards Konoe and Yuji who can't understand why Shana's angry. If they did all the confessing deal early on like what Yoshida did, then none of this would of happened.

[grey_moon]

Confessing, may be the "boring" stuff as you say but it's an important step to developing a relationship. By skipping it, they have essentially started their relationship on a bad footing, it's like learning to walk before you can crawl.

As that is the case, we are now having Shana angry because of Yuji's attachment towards Konoe and Yuji who can't understand why Shana's angry. If they did all the confessing deal early on like what Yoshida did, then none of this would of happened.

Their relationship in S2 only ended up the way it did because of the writers decision to change history. If there wasn't the Back to the Future change in history there actually is a confession, where Yuji tells Shana he decided a long time ago he would go with her and Shana tells Yuji clearly that she loves him.

Personally I wish the writers stood up to the challenge of writing SnS and came up with some novel ways to introduce new love challengers without needing to change history. In most parts I have enjoyed their depiction of the characters, it is just Yuji where I find some of his actions not consistent with the way he has been built up.

[holyman282]

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by change history, but clearly a relationship lacking a confession will only see disaster especially when up against another girl who has confessed and a green haired girl who may or may not have synchronised with the said male.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Okay, I did not like this episode very much at all and I'll try to describe why very quickly since I'm in a hurry. For one, it uses the old "Seemingly innocent girl shows up who might be an enemy and gains the full attention of the lead male" gimmick and it executes it quite poorly. For one thing it portrays Yuji as an absolute idiot who does realize that he's all but ignoring Shana's affections (cause we all know that men are complete idiots who can't read into the obvious) and not only that, to add insult to industry it makes the whole episode about it and constantly beats us over the head with Yuji's inability to see the obvious "What's wrong with Shana" "Yuji, Stop following Konoe-San Around" "Shana Your Rougher Than Usual Today, What's Going On?". So it doubles up on assuming it's male audience is too stupid to figure out "what women want", AND to figure out that the plot is about "what women want". DURRRRRR! I'm a stupid 15-40 Viewer Demographic, I don't know what going on Durrrrrrr! Yeaaaaaaaaaaaah. And not only that, but that's pretty much the plot of this episode, this School Days like script of jealousy and passion. The season might as well just end with Shana carving up Yuji, Yoshida killing Shana in revenge with some acquired tool and Hecate cackling all the way how she destroyed her enemies from the inside out by playing the Moeblob card. Of course I'm kidding (I hope) and the series will hopefully get off this track soon.

For now though, Shana too blends into the harem pool this season.

The characters were also more inconsistent in this episode then any other one so far I think.

I flipped a coin actually to see whether it got a 5 or 4 because I didn't know which way to lean and it gets a 5 in the end, but grudgingly so as I really dislike this episode. Klashy is apparently even more disappointed then I am so people can read what he has to say at the usual place when the time comes.

[grey_moon]

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by change history, but clearly a relationship lacking a confession will only see disaster especially when up against another girl who has confessed and a green haired girl who may or may not have synchronised with the said male.

Well in S1 epi 24, after Shana threw herself in the way of her mentors spear to save Yuji. That was the first giving up of life for another. When Shana is about to sacrifice herself to save the city and Yuji says that he long ago decided to go with her. Now this may or may not be a confession, but added with the fact that he was going to step into certain death with her I think it makes it a very strong expression of love (especially by the laws of Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei). Right before they step through the portal thing Shana clearly tells Yuji she loves him, which Yuji responds to by smiling. Skip forward to S2 epi1 suddenly Yuji is suffering from deafness and didn't hear a thing. That to me is a huge change in history and makes it so much easier for them to set up their love square.

@Kaioshin_Sama - Love the sig!

[holyman282]

Actually I felt in S1 that Yuji decided to give her life for shana because she risked her life for him. Also Yuji's altruistic character meant that he's basically a martyr that would give his life for anyone.. What makes me come to this conclusion? Well during S1 we saw that Yuji was willing to use his own power of existence to save the class when attacked by Friagne. In other words you can't be sure whether Yuji's "risking his life" deal is because he cares about Shana, or if he was on one of his morally self sacrificing attitude. Of course I believe it's the former, but you can't base your idea of them developing a romantic relationship based on that. Certainly they've became closer but not as a couple.

Also that smile in ep 24 was a bit too ambiguous for anyone to be certain whether Yuji heard Shana or not. This really comes down to what the writer decides, you can yell as much as you want saying that Yuji definitely head Shana confess, but if the writer says otherwise then it's not true.

[serenade_beta]

Konoe is doing pretty well for someone who is only a few months old.

Eh? She's in high school.

[grey_moon]

Actually I felt in S1 that Yuji decided to give her life for shana because she risked her life for him. Also Yuji's altruistic character meant that he's basically a martyr that would give his life for anyone.. What makes me come to this conclusion? Well during S1 we saw that Yuji was willing to use his own power of existence to save the class when attacked by Friagne. In other words you can't be sure whether Yuji's "risking his life" deal is because he cares about Shana, or if he was on one of his morally self sacrificing attitude. Of course I believe it's the former, but you can't base your idea of them developing a romantic relationship based on that. Certainly they've became closer but not as a couple.

Also that smile in ep 24 was a bit too ambiguous for anyone to be certain whether Yuji heard Shana or not. This really comes down to what the writer decides, you can yell as much as you want saying that Yuji definitely head Shana confess, but if the writer says otherwise then it's not true.

Yuji was a martyr in the early stages of S1 because he thought he was going to burn out and be forgotten. He wanted the rest of his life force to be used to save everyone so a part of him would be left behind used to for something he deems useful. The end of epi 24 he could have tried to run away from the summoning, but instead he chooses to walk hand in hand with Shana. He didn't need to do that, he wasn't required to be there to help Shana summon Alastor, he went because in his own words he choose to go with Shana a long time ago.

Actually I think this studio is starting to get a bit of a habit of having continuity slips from S1 to S2, all I can say is thank goodness it wasn't as bad as ZnT.

Watch epi 24 again, you will see they display Shana from Yuji's perception so if at the time he didn't hear it, we shouldn't have heard it too. S1 to S2 is just plain bad story telling no matter how you dress it up.

[holyman282]

Meh, this debate could go on for a while, so all i'm going to say is perhaps Yuji is clueless towards Shana's feelings, but i feel it's more a mutual misunderstanding that caused this.

As for S2 i'm enjoying it quite a bit and certainly there is nothing to complain about in terms of how they chose to portray the relationship between, Shana/Yuji/Yoshida/Konoe..

[Klashikari]

^ That was the retcon creating some ruckus back in episode 1.
Seriously, this episode was "Meh". It was really like a "filler" to me. Not that I expect "action action action" for Shana, as the characters and interactions development are very important, but the execution and the meaningness of this episode were really poor.

Retcon of the episode 1 aside, Kaioshin_sama actually nailed the biggest issue in this episode: Yuuji's density. This was beyond ridiculous in various instances as he was able to figure something is wrong, but cannot tell what is the problem... I mean... he was able to think Shana would kiss him in season 1, and he was even thinking Shana tried to confess.
It is bordeline stupid with Yuuji actually seeing how Shana is VERY annoyed that he is with Hecate.

The interactions in this episode were not exactly thrilling nor meaningful (and it is hardly the first time Yuuji had to deal with Shana's jealousy).
A very disappointing episode to say the least. (not so willing to do the summary of this one huh...)

[Skyfall]

Also that smile in ep 24 was a bit too ambiguous for anyone to be certain whether Yuji heard Shana or not. This really comes down to what the writer decides, you can yell as much as you want saying that Yuji definitely head Shana confess, but if the writer says otherwise then it's not true.

Actually, it is far more stupid than that ... because now they actually showed us the explosion happening before Shana actually said her last words, while she clearly did the last season. The whole whopping love triangle (rectangle?) rides on this clumsy plothole. Have him reject her because he needs time to think or something if they must, but not turn the whole thing in something inconsistent. In short the writers had written themselves in a corner, and the only way out of those is usually not pretty.

As for this episode ... it was rather poor and filler-like. Yuji's sudden attraction to Konoe aside, i really don't like what they are doing with his character, as the amount of density he displays towards Shana is rather overwhelming. He has shown himself to be rather sharp, at times even where relationships are concerned ... and i don't appreciate the writers adjusting his density to levels that are required for their forced drama at specific moment.

Now, if i pretend i forget for a second that writers are jerking Yuji by strings ... actually, both Yuji and Shana are somewhat at fault here. Yuji for being as dense as a rock (Shana's hints are fairly obvious), and Shana for letting this drag on ... a few words of confirmation from her and we could end all this. Yuji obviously likes her (He even looked like he was ready to jump for joy when he got a few words of acknowledgment from Shana after their training :heh:) and Shana obviously likes him ... why the writers chose to artificially extend the love triangle i am not sure, but the manner in which it is done is somewhat clumsy.

Lastly - someone should tell Konoe (or better yet - the writer) she has just subjected the little bird to a crueler fate than being eaten by a cat, because she touched it.

Ironically, the dinner in restaurant was the best part of this episode. 5/10

As for Konoe - i think it is undeniable she is some sort of a human doll created by Hecate for whatever reason ... Yuji's attachment to her means setting up some drama material when it turns out her time is limited or something of the sort :) I hope Margery isn't permanently bound to the sofa as well, as i would love to see her doing something more active :)

[holyman282]

Now, if i pretend i forget for a second that writers are jerking Yuji by strings ... actually, both Yuji and Shana are somewhat at fault here. Yuji for being as dense as a rock (Shana's hints are fairly obvious), and Shana for letting this drag on ... a few words of confirmation from her and we could end all this. Yuji obviously likes her (He even looked like he was ready to jump for joy when he got a few words of acknowledgment from Shana after their training :heh:) and Shana obviously likes him ... why the writers chose to artificially extend the love triangle i am not sure, but the manner in which it is done is somewhat clumsy.

That is what i believe and will stick to, it's a mutual misunderstanding that puts them into those situations.


Lastly - someone should tell Konoe (or better yet - the writer) she has just subjected the little bird to a crueler fate than being eaten by a cat, because she touched it.

I guess you don't really like Konoe?

Also reguarding the matter of the little inconsistency with S1 and S2, it's just that little. I'm sure many people wouldn't even of noticed were it not for this ep. also reguarding that scene, not matter how it played out, Yuji's and Shana's relationship didn't change much near the end of S1 anyway as we see then going to school as per usual only now Yoshida and Shana are rivals.

The only reason i can see for people nitpicking this ep apart is because they are fans of Shana and like what a few people said, "when shana's sad we're all sad". Off course i'm not condemning those reactions from people, just that their opinions of this ep is a bit biased because of it and certainly they shouldn't base their judgment on that alone.

I really don't find this love square thing forced, in fact it seemed pretty natural, with Konoe's introduction adding to the mystery of the Bal Masque as well as a plot device to strain shana's and Yuji's relationship.

It's also interesting that no one blamed yoshida at all for the first 3 ep for making Shana jealous on several occasions, it's only when Konoe appeared that people began to critisise the "forced love square" and the inconsistencies of the show between S1 and S2

[Skyfall]

I complained about the inconsistencies starting in ep1 ;) And i see it as a major one, not small. The whole situation with the relationships we have now is a result of it.

I guess you don't really like Konoe?
Not really, aside from being brain-dead she is a moeblob :heh: I wasn't implying a dislike with that line - try picking up a baby bird that has fallen out of a nest and put it back and see what happens. The parents will simply throw it out of the nest. Thats what happens if a human touches the little birds.

What i dislike about this ep is not Shana being sad, but what i perceive as poor writing. Have him go sleep with Kozue and ditch Shana and i will be fine with it, as long as such a development comes around naturally and doesn't rely on forced devices to come about. (season 1 inconsistency and varying level of density :))

I am blaming the writers for this, not any of the characters :)

[Klashikari]

I guess you don't really like Konoe?
Not, that's not it. When you touch a little bird, its parents will abandon it. plain and simple. That's why this scene is simply unnatural at all (which conflict with Konoe's "human" nature)


The only reason i can see for people nitpicking this ep apart is because they are fans of Shana and like what a few people said, "when shana's sad we're all sad". Off course i'm not condemning those reactions from people, just that their opinions of this ep is a bit biased because of it and certainly they shouldn't base their judgment on that alone.Absolutely not. I don't exactly mind if they are able to pull another "love" interest. The problem is the complete shift in the execution because Konoe's presence is simply forced and not following the flow of the "romance" of this series.

I really don't find this love square thing forced, in fact it seemed pretty natural, with Konoe's introduction adding to the mystery of the Bal Masque as well as a plot device to strain shana's and Yuji's relationship.It is forced because Yuuji density is completely out of the blue. Even with the start of the season 2, he was imagining Shana confessing to him, but the lack of evidence made him giving up the idea.
Lots of hints of season 1 proves that Yuuji isn't a brickhead, and even mentioned that he was the one who treated her "just a flame haze", aknowledging that SHana doesn't see him as a torch/mystes, but much more importantly.

That's why Yuuji is completely irrealist in this episode, because his thickness is quite impossible.

It's also interesting that no one blamed yoshida at all for the first 3 ep for making Shana jealous on several occasions, it's only when Konoe appeared that people began to critisise the "forced love square" and the inconsistencies of the show between S1 and S2That's because Kazumi acts accordinggly to her position. She doesn't impose herself, and helps out despite being a mere human. She knows her rival feelings, and thus she doesn't play dumb either.

meanwhile, konoe is just a hair in the soup, popping from nowhere, forcing a clinging on Yuuji who doesn't care much of the 2 other girls harboring CLEAR jealousy behaviour.
Konoe's presence is just simply forced and not exactly following the flow, as they are trying to use a lame attempt of "hecate synchronization", which has hardly anything to do with Yuuji's feelings. If anything, he shouldn't even be attracted by her.
Konoe itself isn't the problem. it is rather the execution and the very bad scripting.

[IMSabbel]

Watched the episode.
Waste of time.
Nothing at all happend.
They could have made an 5 second insert "shana is jealous", which would have served the identical purpose.

Special notes:

-there is moe, and there is outright retardation (which isnt moe at all). Braindead girls to stupid to walk fall in the second category.
-another shounen hero who NEVER watched TV or read manga (otherwise he would realize shana is jealous, because whats happening is one of the cheapest soap plots).

[Guido]

Analyzing deeply the episode I sincerely believe for myself that it has been misjudged and underrated. Well, that's for my part, since in no way I'm trying to impose my view upon anybody else.

The episode itself was an exploration upon the inner turmoil that Shana has been feeling, as well as Kazumi growing jealousy over Yuuji.

On the previous season we got to see how Shana snapped upon Yuuji when she demanded him to forget about Kazumi on the night that Bal Masqué attacked at the festival.

The difference IMO from back then with the current circumstance concerned that with Kazumi she and Yuuji met for a long time, so I can consider that by the end of the first season she and Shana became friendly love rivals for Yuuji's affection.

But the harmony established back then has been disrupted with Konoe's arrival. She's a complete stranger who innately and instinctively took a liking and literally clinging towards Yuuji.

Yuuji's a boy so he can't help it to be careless about figuring out by himself that his recent inclination to worry and have sympathy for Konoe is provoking anxiety and jealousy on both Shana and Kazumi.

It feels terrible for those two, and with Konoe actively clinging more and more it dawns closer and closer upon me that she's Hecate after all.

If you ask me the most climatic scene happened at the park when Kazumi witnessed how close Yuuji and Konoe were close to each other, as if she could perceive a powerful chemistry revolving around those two.

[4as]

The name Hecate derives from the goddess of wilderness and child birth.. I really don't see how she so deserves her name, are you implying that Hecate sounds a bit like hate?

I was think about Hecate from Macbeth.
She was a witch striving to doom the Macbeth.

[Mentar]

I had no complaints about this ep. "Melancholy Girls" - that's what they depicted, and they did it fairly well. So what's all the bitching about?

That Yuji doesn't get that Shana is jealous, even though he clearly picks up that she's angry? Keep in mind here that for Yuji, Shana is still a Flame Haze and not really all that human. Except for the "Yuji ga suki", which they killed in ep1, Shana has been consistently in all-tsun mode with him in interpersonal matters. He should indeed pick up that Konoe is the reason for her irritation (and I think he did), and it's indeed a bit out of character for him not to follow up on it - but not so much that I'd call it a "plot hole" or anything.

Well, seeing the favorite characters gradually crumble and fall apart isn't everybody's favorite pastime, so I guess some negative ratings were to be expected. A solid 8 from me, for good gradual storytelling.

[Kiyoru]

Aw noes, I still haven't seen this episode ;___;

[outcast_within]

i said it at ep 3 and i'll see it for this ep
this show is pretty good for a harem show

[tabun]

Aw noes, I still haven't seen this episode ;___;

Would it then not be unwise to come into this episode's discussion thread? :twitch:

[Davidj]

Eh? She's in high school.

Yup. Pretty impressive for someone who I figure came into existence out of the humanity that Hecate took from Yuji.

[ashlay]

Yup. Pretty impressive for someone who I figure came into existence out of the humanity that Hecate took from Yuji.
lets not jump ahead of ourselves here.

Konoe could be all sorts of things. But until the anime actually states who and what she is, those are all mere hypotheticals.

[stormy001_M1A2]

I guess this episode discussion shows how impatient most general viewing public is. They all want non stop panty showing action and less "blabber".

I prefer the reason to be build up before the conflict was shown. No cause, no effect.

[Guido]

I guess this episode discussion shows how impatient most general viewing public is. They all want non stop panty showing action and less "blabber".

I prefer the reason to be build up before the conflict was shown. No cause, no effect.

I second the motion. Although the pace for this episode made me ocassionally drowsy at certain times, it paid off rather nicely since Shana has turned conflicted upon perceiving that Yuuji pays more attention to Konoe, and poor Kasumi is as well feeling that she's interfering like a nuisance between those two.

[minhtam1638]

Just finished watching the subs, and I would have given my input, but grey moon and holyman282 summed it up perfectly... whichever one complied with mine. Off topic, but the debate between those two kind of reminded me of the Kanon 2006 final episode discussion.

[grey_moon]

That Yuji doesn't get that Shana is jealous, even though he clearly picks up that she's angry? Keep in mind here that for Yuji, Shana is still a Flame Haze and not really all that human.


What about all that you are Shana stuff the writers kept shoving down our throats in S1? What about the I am Yuji and not just a torch? Yuji of all the people should understand Shana the most, more then Alastor, more then Maid-san. The reason why? He created Shana. It was his actions during S1 which gave birth to the Shana we know now. If Shana was still the Flame Haze, Yuji would be just plain dead and the Reiji Maigo would be safely tucked away in some really lucky torch.

Personally I have no problem with Shana and Yuji's relationship having a turn for the worst if it was written well. This epi imho can only be considered well written if S1 didn't exist.

[Aquifina]

Obviously a lot of how one views this episode depends on whether or not you think Yuuji's denseness *plausible*. In order to avoid rehashing things, I'd rather comment on a few other things:

1. The eating ramen contest was fun, because it was the first time I think we've seen Yuuji act as a competitive teenage guy--"I don't really understand it, but I won't lose!" was as priceless an expression of male competitiveness for the sake of competitiveness as I can think of. And it was neat seeing it come from, of all people, Yuuji. Although Yuuji's no coward, he rarely acts like "one of the boys," and I liked seeing him show some testosterone.

2. I'm of the opinion that Konoe really is Hecate, but obviously a version that's been sealed or something, who is also completely unaware of who she actually is. Or maybe the doll theory some of you have bandied about is what's going on. But I think the two are somehow related. My own speculation is that this is a trap of some kind for Yuuji, which he will walk into, partly because Shana won't be around to protect him, because she's been avoiding him.

From the preview, the next ep. is supposed to about a family dinner of some kind, presumably with Chigusa and Wilhelmina. Post 19 has a spoiler about Yuuji going to Konoe's mansion. My guess is that at the dinner, things will be sorted out by Chigusa, but as that resolves itself, Yuuji will be walking into the Bal Masque trap at Konoe's place, probably at the end of the episode. Getting out of the trap will be ep. 6

Continuing my speculation, after Yuuji walks into the trap, some combination of the following will occur:

1. Shana will have to mount a rescue op. of Yuuji

2. Yuuji himself will show of some of his new powers

3. If Konoe is Hecate, she will become herself again, and out of loyalty to Yuuji for all his help, will help him escape. The same thing will occur if Konoe is some kind of surrogate or doll separate and apart from Hecate, but connected to the latter in some way.

4. The crisis will help sort things out between Shana and Yuuji. Konoe will conveniently disappear as part of the resolution, whatever it might be.

[grey_moon]

1. The eating ramen contest was fun, because it was the first time I think we've seen Yuuji act as a competitive teenage guy--"I don't really understand it, but I won't lose!" was as priceless an expression of male competitiveness for the sake of competitiveness as I can think of. And it was neat seeing it come from, of all people, Yuuji. Although Yuuji's no coward, he rarely acts like "one of the boys," and I liked seeing him show some testosterone.


Hee hee the thing I liked was how Shana beat them both without trying. I think she was on her 3rd desert by the time they finished :p

[holyman282]

I had no complaints about this ep. "Melancholy Girls" - that's what they depicted, and they did it fairly well. So what's all the bitching about?

I couldn't agree with you more, this ep was true to it's word and if by melancholy people thought, happy shana waltzing around with Yuji while they kiss, they obviously don't pay much attention to the ep title.

I honestly don't see anything to complain about.

That Yuji doesn't get that Shana is jealous, even though he clearly picks up that she's angry? Keep in mind here that for Yuji, Shana is still a Flame Haze and not really all that human. Except for the "Yuji ga suki", which they killed in ep1, Shana has been consistently in all-tsun mode with him in interpersonal matters. He should indeed pick up that Konoe is the reason for her irritation (and I think he did), and it's indeed a bit out of character for him not to follow up on it - but not so much that I'd call it a "plot hole" or anything.

Even were he to pick up on Shana's irritation with Konoe, I don't why he should just forget about her, especially when she dissapeared while they were eating and knowing that she could possibly fall of a cliff if she wasn't watched. I'll reiterate once again and that is that Yuji sees Konoe as a little sister which he must look after (that's what is seems to me). Hence Shana's actions and retorts were uncalled for and hence his inability to understand why she's angry. He was pretty perceptive when both Yoshida and Shana gave me food, knowing that he can't leave one more uneaten then the other. On this occasion he is unable to perceive the cause of Shana's anger as to him, he's merely looking after a little sister who was placed in his care.

If anything else I think Shana is being unreasonable by telling to forget her ect.

I guess this episode discussion shows how impatient most general viewing public is. They all want non stop panty showing action and less "blabber".

I prefer the reason to be build up before the conflict was shown. No cause, no effect.

That's what I thought too. That most people's dislike of this ep stemmed from one of their favourite characters being hurt.

[grey_moon]

That's what I thought too. That most people's dislike of this ep stemmed from one of their favourite characters being hurt.

Personally I read a few people's dislike of the this episode is that they didn't like the inconsistent way Yuji is being displayed.

[holyman282]

Yes but no matter how you look at their complaint, it always has something to do with konoe or Yuji, who just happens to hurt Shana.... You matter how you look at it, it just seems like people don't like Shana getting hurt.

[serenade_beta]

3. If Konoe is Hecate, she will become herself again, and out of loyalty to Yuuji for all his help, will help him escape. The same thing will occur if Konoe is some kind of surrogate or doll separate and apart from Hecate, but connected to the latter in some way.

I really hope this doesn't happen.

There are too many times where the bad guy spends time with the person they are supposed to kill/etc. and ends up being touched and saves them in the end.

We need more pure villains. Like Spaghetti!

[minhtam1638]

Yes but no matter how you look at their complaint, it always has something to do with konoe or Yuji, who just happens to hurt Shana.... You matter how you look at it, it just seems like people don't like Shana getting hurt.

Well, you can definitely tell that fans absolutely love Shana. She's on route to winning the Korean Best Moe tourney. This goes back to the "When Shana is sad, the world is sad" deal when fans tend to get upset at the circumstances surrounding Shana. They feel that someone has to take the blame. Whether it is Fumina or Yuji makes no difference, but someone has to take responsibliity for Shana's unwanted feelings.

[grey_moon]

Yes but no matter how you look at their complaint, it always has something to do with konoe or Yuji, who just happens to hurt Shana.... You matter how you look at it, it just seems like people don't like Shana getting hurt.

But that isn't really fair to say that. From my point of view the Shana X Yuji relationship was consistently built up through out S1 with only one out of character blip (in my opinion). The out of character blip was when Yuji went spastic over Yoshida at the fair. Otherwise it was Yuji, Shana and Yoshia exploring their relationship which happen to end with what I consider with Yuji and Shana cementing theirs. The Yoshida x Yuji relationship in no way came close to the Yuji X Shana one and to make things worse for Yoshida, Ike threw in the gauntlet too (now where is this self sacrificing person now?).

So the reason why it isn't fair, is people like me who complain about Yuji's inconsistency can be accused of getting angry at Shana being hurt. That isn't right as other's and myself have written several times about why we don't like how Yuji is acting. Now just because one of the symptoms is that Shana got overly jealous at it doesn't mean we are defending her tooth and nail. Well that is speaking for myself, I shouldn't speak for others.

If the writers had written Yoshida as the main girl I still would still not like how Yuji is acting around Konoe. I hope that the writers will throw in a good reason for it like how Konoe was made to attract Yuji (someone mentioned something on these lines earlier).

[Skyfall]

Yes but no matter how you look at their complaint, it always has something to do with konoe or Yuji, who just happens to hurt Shana.... You matter how you look at it, it just seems like people don't like Shana getting hurt.

Ah, isn't that a convenient way to dismiss the arguments of others. I have no special attachment towards Shana, heck - i don't like tsunderes to begin with. I do believe Shana is actually better suited for Yuji, though this has nothing to do with the poor writing in this episode. Shana can get hurt for all what it is worth, as long as such a development is not poorly handled. Action isn't important to me (for reference - i highly enjoy shows like Aria) and i am all for good character interactions. Sadly this isn't the case here as i see many inconsistencies. But i see little reason to continue the debate if my arguments get dismissed as biased complaining.

[Mentar]

What about all that you are Shana stuff the writers kept shoving down our throats in S1? What about the I am Yuji and not just a torch?

Just as you said - forced down Shana's throat too. In S1, there was no natural development towards romance at all: If anything it was about "Yuji is leaving! Nooooo!". The concept of love was alien to Shana to begin with, and it remains difficult too. Yuji was trying to force a new perspective on her. I don't think that him not expecting romantic interest in him from her is illofical at all.

Yuji of all the people should understand Shana the most, more then Alastor, more then Maid-san. The reason why? He created Shana. It was his actions during S1 which gave birth to the Shana we know now. If Shana was still the Flame Haze, Yuji would be just plain dead and the Reiji Maigo would be safely tucked away in some really lucky torch.

Yes, but the concept of romantic-based JEALOUSY is still new. Except for the famous "Yuji ga suki" there was nothing substantial in this direction, and they headed this piece of evidence off in ep1, by claiming he was unable to hear her properly in the blaze. Contrived? Maybe, but not illogical.

Personally I have no problem with Shana and Yuji's relationship having a turn for the worst if it was written well. This epi imho can only be considered well written if S1 didn't exist.

Rewatch S1 and please point out spots which contradict the current storywriting. I'm curious. Where does S1 become "romantic" in a way that Yuji could comprehend it?

[stonedzombie]

its been a good couple years since the original Shana aired so I just wanted to confirm some things to make sure I'm sill on the right track. This Yuuji isn't the real Yuuji right? He's just one of those temp. mystes light things that replaces people when they get eaten and slowly disappear within a small amount of time. Yuuji though is a special case cause every time his flame goes out, it refills again. This is just what I remember form the first Shana.....I'm not missing anything, right?

[holyman282]

Sadly this isn't the case here as i see many inconsistencies. But i see little reason to continue the debate if my arguments get dismissed as biased complaining.

It's certainly an impression i'm getting from the majority, that's not to say all. Off course Grey moon and you have some good points but I find the majority just hate it because it either lacked action (hence people are saying that it's a filler) or that Shana got hurt, this ep sucks.

I can argue the same points over and over again as well, but we each have our own set of opinions and each display a sense of stubborness.:heh:

All I can do is rehash my original argument that:
1. Yuji first of all ruled out the fact that Shana could like him early on in ep 1.
2. Just because Yuji became more perceptive doesn't automatically allow him to read the mind of Shana. The reigo mago is amazing but it can't read minds.
3. Yuji perceives his relationship with Konoe to be just that of a naieve sister needing the care of an elderly brother. Not to mention she could possibly get herself killed if she wasn't looked after. Hence he probably doesn't see what the big deal is and thus can't comprehend Shana's reactions.
4. Their relationship didn't develop that far in S1, sure there was that confession scene near the end of S1, but as Mentar said, he obviously didn't hear it. Also, even after Shana told him that she liked him in S1, things really didn't change much between their relationship after that whole manifesting alastor into this world thing. You can see that by them going to school as per normal afterwards, which further indicates that Yuji probably didn't hear it.
5. Also let's say that Yuji perhaps realises that Shana's jealous, except that Yuji don't know what shana's true feelings are towards him and Shana isn't making a effort to tell him outright. In other words he shouldn't be commited to shana when she hasn't even told him how she truly felt.

This will probably be the final time I continue with this debate as well, since all I can do is to sway as many people to the positives of this ep and while various others make light of the negatives, which I don't believe to be such a big deal.

I for one, seen alot worse male leads and became undoubtedly desensitised to Yuji one small slip up this ep and found this ep to be thoroughly enjoyable.

its been a good couple years since the original Shana aired so I just wanted to confirm some things to make sure I'm sill on the right track. This Yuuji isn't the real Yuuji right? He's just one of those temp. mystes light things that replaces people when they get eaten and slowly disappear within a small amount of time. Yuuji though is a special case cause every time his flame goes out, it refills again. This is just what I remember form the first Shana.....I'm not missing anything, right?

Nope you got the whole picture.

[grey_moon]

Rewatch S1 and please point out spots which contradict the current storywriting. I'm curious. Where does S1 become "romantic" in a way that Yuji could comprehend it?

I don't quite get your question as I consider S1 to be very much about the romantic exploration between Shana, Yuji and Yoshida. Anyway I'll try to answer why I feel there is a contradiction in story writing.

The contradiction is in Yuji's lack of ability to see Shana's feelings for him.

Now time and time again we have been shown how sharp Yuji is, just to counter any arguments about getting extra senses from the Reiji Maigo, consider that he would not only need to be able to sense stuff, but he needs to be able to work out what it all means. The working out bit is the sharpness and his higher then the average bear perception. Now each time he acts dumb to people around him, is a contradiction is the way the writers have spent building his character up.

Lets deal with the idea that Yuji lacks experience in the romantic side of things, therefore wouldn't understand Shana's behaviour. Well as I already pointed out S1 ep1 & 2 shows Yuji does indeed have the ability to spot romantic feelings in others. Could it be he is of the type that doesn't expect anyone to like him? Well that might be the case, but he expected a kiss from Shana as a reward. Yuji doesn't seem to be one of the kiss kiss friendly Europeans! So I think he was expecting romance from her.

Yuji has been shown several times during S1 to find Shana cute, so it is not like he thinks of her as just a Flame Haze.

Yuji's relationship with Shana grew nicely during S1 (and vice vesa). I thought it was very much not only just about Yuji accepting who he is, but also accepting who he is to Shana. During his little angst session about Shana not needing him to fight to deciding that he will get stronger so he can fight with her. Isn't that why he is training so hard for? So he can fight with Shana and be with her. He stated that several times during s1. That wish may or may not be considered romantic, but added up with everything else I personally think it tends towards romantic.

Now lets consider the whole food issue. He must be plain stupid if he can't see that Yoshida's food offering isn't a bento filled with love. Now if he can see that then he must also realise that Shana's melon bread is a counter againt Yoshida's love. If he doesn't spot these blindingly obviously and overly used love love signs then again the contradiction is in how Yuji is meant to be sharp.

Yuji wanting to leave the city with Shana I don't believe can be just attributed to him wanting to protect everyone in the city. Because if that was the case he could have left any time he wanted on his own. If he is that self sacrificing he could have slit his own throat and protected everyone. Instead he rather insistent on leaving with Shana, maybe he is a coward and wants to hide behind Shana's skirt? Or maybe he already deep down inside he already has a bond with her and thats why he wants to leave with her.

Now finally with Shana using her body to shield him. Now I can't see anyway for him not to understand why she did that. He already was going on and on about a Flame Haze's duty and how is Shana only going to destroy him.

If they wrote Yuji as a blind deaf and stupid moronic monkey, then there would be no contradictions in his character, but since they made one of his attributes to be rather observant and intelligent then i think there is.

[Sinestra]

ahhh young love :Dthe jealousy scale has gone into overdrive. Shana i can understand why she is so upset she doesnt even understand why she feels this way it must be very confusing for her. Yuji who apparantly is oblvious to everything that is going on is not like th Yuji from the S1. I find his personality inconsistency very bothersome and some of the romance situations feel very forced. Konoe was a great way to shake things up but now it feels like she is there just for the love square if you get past the moe-ness she really is just a plot device and this whole thing has dragged on way to long, there is no way Yuji looks at Konoe any other way other than a lil sister. I dunno i really like the show and i want to have confidence in J.C. Staff ability to pull the full potential out of the series. I guess my problem is im not sure where they are trying to lead us. In all honestly nothing has really happend in the past 4 episodes. Im no where near dropping the show im just worried. Im fairly convienced now that Konoe is Hecate since everything in my prediction has started to happen except few things which might be coming in 5 6 and 7.

btw i would love to go to that Super size place damn those bowls of ramen were huge.

[DazarGaidin]

My rating on this one dropped a little. It was kinda boring, and i feel that given Yuji's previous attitude toward women who are interested in him he is acting kinda strangely toward konoe, he just seems too responsive, almost thought he wanted to lip lock there. Maybe the thing with hecate really turned him on lol

The thing i did like however is that unlike most harem (and this has turned into one), some of the girls are actually treating him like he deserves near the end :D I mean, he knows at least 1 of them feel about him, and really he should be able to figure out shana's problem too. Even if he doesn't know that, he should have a care for his stalker girl's feelings :P

[tabun]

I find it funny that so many just accept that Konoe is not Hecate or is in any way connected to her. Or that this now is a harem, totally ignoring any strange behaviour. Don't any of you have doubts about all this?

[grey_moon]

I find it funny that so many just accept that Konoe is not Hecate oder is in any way connected to her. Or that this now is a harem, totally ignoring any strange behaviour. Don't any of you have doubts about all this?

I'm thinking that the Konoe is going to be a trump card that the writers are going to use to thwap us in the face. I'm hoping for a curve ball which will make me go, oh I never expected that and the bleeping well explains why Yuji has gone all dotage on her.

I find Yuji a little too accepting that she isn't Hecate. I would of thought he would have gotten a healthy level of paranoia beaten into him in regards to Balle Masque.

I'm also wondering if Shana's jealousy isn't being also being fuelled by her sensing something from Konoe without realising it?

What ever happens I just hope it isn't one long dream sequence. Anything but that!

I wish we could get a little more insight into the world of the Guze no Tomogara, a Shanatan corner at the end of each episode I would have really enjoyed.

@Sinestra - My friends and I did something like that before. It was pretty good at the beginning, but we didn't factor for soggy noodle affect. By the time we got half way down the bowl it ended up looking like a nasty bowl of worms :(

[ChainLegacy]

I don't understand why there is now some Yuji harem. I, like a few others here, was actually pretty sure there would be a Yuji x Shana end to season one. I'm surprised and not particularly fond of where they're going with that as of right now.

[tabun]

I don't understand why there is now some Yuji harem. I, like a few others here, was actually pretty sure there would be a Yuji x Shana end to season one. I'm surprised and not particularly fond of where they're going with that as of right now.
...wich is exactly why I am so astonished why you accept the "harem", as you perceive it. Who knows if it will stay this way? Do you have any reason to believe it will? Would it make sense in terms of the story?

I would have expected the Shana crowd to show scepticism mostly, but not this disappointment over the harem that SnS is supposedly becoming.

Do you remember the bonfire near the end of SnS Season 1? It was bait. Bait that was laid out in the 2 episodes preceding the bonfire episode. But did anyone complain? No, because there was action. Who says the events in SnS 1 thus far may not have been another diversion or the laying out of some sort of bait as well? Just more subtle. I am still more curious than annoyed.

[lua thien]

Obviously a lot of how one views this episode depends on whether or not you think Yuuji's denseness *plausible*. In order to avoid rehashing things, I'd rather comment on a few other things:

1. The eating ramen contest was fun, because it was the first time I think we've seen Yuuji act as a competitive teenage guy--"I don't really understand it, but I won't lose!" was as priceless an expression of male competitiveness for the sake of competitiveness as I can think of. And it was neat seeing it come from, of all people, Yuuji. Although Yuuji's no coward, he rarely acts like "one of the boys," and I liked seeing him show some testosterone.

2. I'm of the opinion that Konoe really is Hecate, but obviously a version that's been sealed or something, who is also completely unaware of who she actually is. Or maybe the doll theory some of you have bandied about is what's going on. But I think the two are somehow related. My own speculation is that this is a trap of some kind for Yuuji, which he will walk into, partly because Shana won't be around to protect him, because she's been avoiding him.

From the preview, the next ep. is supposed to about a family dinner of some kind, presumably with Chigusa and Wilhelmina. Post 19 has a spoiler about Yuuji going to Konoe's mansion. My guess is that at the dinner, things will be sorted out by Chigusa, but as that resolves itself, Yuuji will be walking into the Bal Masque trap at Konoe's place, probably at the end of the episode. Getting out of the trap will be ep. 6

Continuing my speculation, after Yuuji walks into the trap, some combination of the following will occur:

1. Shana will have to mount a rescue op. of Yuuji

2. Yuuji himself will show of some of his new powers

3. If Konoe is Hecate, she will become herself again, and out of loyalty to Yuuji for all his help, will help him escape. The same thing will occur if Konoe is some kind of surrogate or doll separate and apart from Hecate, but connected to the latter in some way.

4. The crisis will help sort things out between Shana and Yuuji. Konoe will conveniently disappear as part of the resolution, whatever it might be.



Probably the reverse of Stockholm Syndrome in regards to Hecate's or Konoe's loyalties. The next episodes should explain a bit more about Konoe's history and answer some questions.

[Master Chibi]

This episode sucked.

I was just left scratching my head at the end wondering what the hell just happened.

$100 says this season ends up just like the last, with no real progression at all, outside of the entire world not going to hell.

[grey_moon]

$100 says this season ends up just like the last, with no real progression at all, outside of the entire world not going to hell.

I'd settle for maid-san to get it together with skeletor!

[Master Chibi]

I'd settle for maid-san to get it together with skeletor!

Yeah there's a hugely disappointing lack of Wilma thus far (that's what I call her, shaddup).

We did get a butt shot though.

Someone cap that for me pleasssse?

(When she's talking with Margery~)

[grey_moon]

Yeah there's a hugely disappointing lack of Wilma thus far (that's what I call her, shaddup).

We did get a butt shot though.

Someone cap that for me pleasssse?

(When she's talking with Margery~)

Wilma is far easier to type then Wilhelmina. I bust a gut each time I try to type her name, so I find it easier to call her by Patty's maid-san.

To be honest through out my discussion with holyman, I think I know why I feel a certain disappointment in S2 so far. I blamed it on the retcon, but I think that is just the anchor of my disappointment. I realised I was hoping for much more exploration in to Margery, Wilma and other characters which I think have so much more they can show us. The retcon for me was the sign that they were going to rehash the whole YujixShanaxYoshida thing. I guess Konoe in a way is kinda a good thing as at least that gives a hopeful chance of involvement from Balle Masque.

The character interactions that do it for me in S2 is actually between Chigusa, maid-san and Shana. I think the dynamic between them is absolutely wonderful.

[UPR]

The character interactions that do it for me in S2 is actually between Chigusa, maid-san and Shana. I think the dynamic between them is absolutely wonderful.

well next ep will have interaction between the maid and Chigusa. (as said by the preview)

[Quakis]

I realised I was hoping for much more exploration in to Margery

From the opening sequence we see a shot of some silver gauntlet possibly from that silver armour tomagura (?) Margery spoke about in the first season, so I expect we might get to see some more of that Margery-side-of-things. Well I hope that's the case though.

[Sinestra]

Despite whats been going on in the series right now its still NOT a harem I have my compliants as well but im being patient. Im having faith that J.C. knows what their doing if you think about it, its almost like everyone is positioned like in chess for the next move. I mean come on Konoe instant attachement to Yuuji all of a sudden shes like miss PETA and can talk to animals and shit,Shana feeling the way she does right now and not training Yuuji. There are plans within plans my friends

[minhtam1638]

From the opening sequence we see a shot of some silver gauntlet possibly from that silver armour tomagura (?) Margery spoke about in the first season, so I expect we might get to see some more of that Margery-side-of-things. Well I hope that's the case though.

I honestly don't think so, since the Margery and the Silver deal was mentioned but not elaborated upon in the novels... yet.

[DazarGaidin]

We are thinking its a harem cause so far it is one :P But i do suspect something with konoe, she is behaving too strangely. The part where she suddenly looked into the sky then ran off was real suspicious too, and for crying out loud, normal people don't have birds flocking to them...

[holyman282]

...wich is exactly why I am so astonished why you accept the "harem", as you perceive it. Who knows if it will stay this way? Do you have any reason to believe it will? Would it make sense in terms of the story?

I would have expected the Shana crowd to show scepticism mostly, but not this disappointment over the harem that SnS is supposedly becoming.

Do you remember the bonfire near the end of SnS Season 1? It was bait. Bait that was laid out in the 2 episodes preceding the bonfire episode. But did anyone complain? No, because there was action. Who says the events in SnS 1 thus far may not have been another diversion or the laying out of some sort of bait as well? Just more subtle. I am still more curious than annoyed.

You know you make an interesting point. That there is more to this situation then meets the eye. Perhaps the reason why Yuji lacked his usualy perceptive powers and many as said is due to the fact that the synchronisation with Hecate in S1 may have blinded him to Konoe who may or may not be Hecate herself. That would explain why he feels drawn to her and why he disreguards Shana's reactions as simply that of her being mad.


To be honest through out my discussion with holyman, I think I know why I feel a certain disappointment in S2 so far. I blamed it on the retcon, but I think that is just the anchor of my disappointment. I realised I was hoping for much more exploration in to Margery, Wilma and other characters which I think have so much more they can show us. The retcon for me was the sign that they were going to rehash the whole YujixShanaxYoshida thing. I guess Konoe in a way is kinda a good thing as at least that gives a hopeful chance of involvement from Balle Masque.

You know from that statement i get a sense that you are getting bored at Shana S2 because they have repeated the whole love triangle with another person added in. Although I hope you weren't expecting any drastic changes to the storyline just so it doesn't remind you of S1. To be honest, the Yoshida/Shana/Yuji interactions is what draws me to Shana which with the interesting plot and action scenes makes Shakugan no Shana very enjoyable.

Perhaps you're dislike for S2 was that you found it to be repetitive of S1.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Well Yuji already suspected something deja vu as he stared into Konoe's eyes long enough and realizes that he seen this void in the eyes before, Hecate back in Seirei Den. But his belief that she is just a normal school girl prevented him to extrapolate on the deja vu feeling and her cuteness won his trust over his suspicion.

I was suspecting that Konoe is actually Hecate locked in her powers by the right hand bangle which is a Hougu in diguise. If I was right, Sydonay will not forgive Bel Peol for putting his beloved Hecate in such dangerous situation. It will be interesting fight between these 2.

[tabun]

Ah, finally some thoughts about some deeper meanings! That's great to see.
You know you make an interesting point. That there is more to this situation then meets the eye. Perhaps the reason why Yuji lacked his usualy perceptive powers and many as said is due to the fact that the synchronisation with Hecate in S1 may have blinded him to Konoe who may or may not be Hecate herself. That would explain why he feels drawn to her and why he disreguards Shana's reactions as simply that of her being mad.
I was suspected that Konoe is actually Hecate locked in her powers by the right hand bangle which is a Hougu in diguise. If I was right, Sydonay will not forgive Bel Peol for putting his beloved Hecate in such dangerous situation. It will be interesting fight between these 2.
I was thinking something along those lines, like I wrote in one of my earlier posts. Quite interesting to read other people's assumptions as well!

[serenade_beta]

I find it funny that so many just accept that Konoe is not Hecate or is in any way connected to her. Or that this now is a harem, totally ignoring any strange behaviour. Don't any of you have doubts about all this?

Mah...

At first when she first appeared, I went "Hecate?!", but after that, I went and read her profile. After that, episodes 3-4. I really don't suspect her anymore.
Of course, there obviously is a chance, but I'll stick with "she isn't" for now.

We still have 20+ episodes, assuming it takes that long WHICH it definitely won't.
Unless Shana II receives the fate of Zero II. :uhoh:

The part where she suddenly looked into the sky then ran off was real suspicious too, and for crying out loud, normal people don't have birds flocking to them...

Too bad this is anime, where even parents might not exist for people. There are definitely characters in anime history that have an affinity with animals and naturally attract them.

Well Yuji already suspected something deja vu as he stared into Konoe's eyes long enough and realizes that he seen this void in the eyes before, Hecate back in Seirei Den. But his belief that she is just a normal school girl prevented him to extrapolate on the deja vu feeling and her cuteness won his trust over his suspicion.

Actually, I have no idea what he was thinking. He just stared at her and smiled. :eyebrow:

[lua thien]

Mah...


Too bad this is anime, where even parents might not exist for people. There are definitely characters in anime history that have an affinity with animals and naturally attract them.



Actually, I have no idea what he was thinking. He just stared at her and smiled. :eyebrow:


Lack of parents... By the way, here's a question for everyone who hasn't answered this:

Say that you have a normal kid whose parents are Torches. When his/her parents burn out and vanish like other Torches do, does the kid disappear as well even if he/she is not a Torch at all to begin with?

I mean, when Torches die, all evidence of their existence is eradicated from memory so how does this work out?


Yuji looking into Konoe's eyes... it looks like Konoe's already ahead of Shana and Yoshida for his affections without any effort on her part. I wonder what it looks like to see Shana taking her anger out on Wilhelmina in Episode 5.

[grey_moon]

Perhaps you're dislike for S2 was that you found it to be repetitive of S1.

It is not that I dislike S2, but a lot of elements in it currently frustrate me. I am enjoying it, just as I am enjoying the discussion of it. I'm just holding out for a decent explanation of Yuji dumbness. I like your idea of the synchronisation nerfing him.

@lua thien - Wow that is a great point. How does that work? If the child suddenly disappears without a shock absorber wouldn't cause unbalance? But as you say how do u deal with parents who no longer exist? *brain hurts*

[darktruth]

I find it funny how Yuji is rather oblivious to Yoshida's feelings as well as Shana's. Does anyone remember in season 1 how Yuji quickly realised the original Yukari Hirai liked Ike? Although she did ask rather subtly if Ike had a girlfriend, Yuji still picked up on her having a crush on Ike yet he is so oblivious to Shana & Yoshida.

[UltimaWolf]

I find it funny how Yuji is rather oblivious to Yoshida's feelings as well as Shana's. Does anyone remember in season 1 how Yuji quickly realised the original Yukari Hirai liked Ike? Although she did ask rather subtly if Ike had a girlfriend, Yuji still picked up on her having a crush on Ike yet he is so oblivious to Shana & Yoshida.

Well it could be that he's the type of person that picks up things easily about other people but is oblivious about things involving himself. I know a few people that are like that, it can be alot easier somtimes seeing things happening to others and not about yourself.
All we can do is hope either Yuji does notice or figure it out, Or Shana gets her feelings sorted out and tells Yuji face-to-face what he means to her. Or somthing like that. :heh:

[alvinkhorfire]

Lack of parents... By the way, here's a question for everyone who hasn't answered this:

Say that you have a normal kid whose parents are Torches. When his/her parents burn out and vanish like other Torches do, does the kid disappear as well even if he/she is not a Torch at all to begin with?

I mean, when Torches die, all evidence of their existence is eradicated from memory so how does this work out?



Let me quote a good explanation from Kinny Riddle, from this post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1202653&postcount=8). If anyone need to know more about the logic behind power of existence and so on, feel free to go to Shakugan no Shana Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=56148).

Kinny Riddle explained:
An interesting question arises concerning Torches: When a person disappear, what happens to his family?

Let's consider the following example:

Unlike time travel, where you go back in time and kill your grandfather, you end up killing your existence.

If a Denizen ends up devouring your grandfather, you will not disappear, because nothing will change the fact that you're "born". Rather, your perception of who your grandfather was will change.

You will wonder "I wonder who my grandfather was?" Your grandmother would struggle to remember how on earth did she have children, etc. But they would then come up with a "rational explanation" to explain away this "unnatural distortion" to their perception of the world.

The same applies to a Torch's physical possession. Take the hapless Hirai Yukari for example, after she disappeared (along with her just as unlucky parents), her apartment does not become vacant overnight. Rather, the stuff inside would continue to remain there, collecting dust. Neighbours would wonder "Did someone ever live here? No one's ever gone in and out for ages." (Not counting the fact that until recently, Shana never bothered staying there. )

[ashlay]

I find it funny how Yuji is rather oblivious to Yoshida's feelings as well as Shana's. Does anyone remember in season 1 how Yuji quickly realised the original Yukari Hirai liked Ike? Although she did ask rather subtly if Ike had a girlfriend, Yuji still picked up on her having a crush on Ike yet he is so oblivious to Shana & Yoshida.
well, to be fair to Yuji, Shana has on multiple occasions said she doesn't have feelings for him and rebuked his advances. (melon bread "reward" anyone?) I think we can forgive Yuji for no longer jumping to conclusions for fear of being chewed out.

as for Yoshida, I really wonder if he does have feelings for her...Well, that's a different discussion though. lets just say Yuji has about a week or two before he's guilty of ignoring Yoshida's jealously. After all, he's only seen her looking disappointed in the morning after days of Yoshida being extremely friendly with Konoe and showing no issue with Yuji's friendship with Konoe.

[Davidj]

Lack of parents... By the way, here's a question for everyone who hasn't answered this:

Say that you have a normal kid whose parents are Torches. When his/her parents burn out and vanish like other Torches do, does the kid disappear as well even if he/she is not a Torch at all to begin with?



That seems unlikely. The kid has power of existence so it can't be wiped out that way. Have you noticed the mysteriously absent parents in the house where Margery Daw sleeps off her drunks?

[minhtam1638]

That seems unlikely. The kid has power of existence so it can't be wiped out that way. Have you noticed the mysteriously absent parents in the house where Margery Daw sleeps off her drunks?

Now that you mention it, I wonder why Keisaku and Eita don't even notice their parents were missing, even after meeting Margery.

EDIT: OMG, there's a McDonald's reference in this episode!

[flashmagi]

Now that you mention it, I wonder why Keisaku and Eita don't even notice their parents were missing, even after meeting Margery.

EDIT: OMG, there's a McDonald's reference in this episode!

i always just thought it was a typical rich oversea parents stereotype used in countless other animes with male leads living alone.

im also getting real bored of S2. The relationship development seems completely reset, as shana takes back her confession and yoshida hasnt changed much. the only obvious change are the lunches. im also waiting for some more action fighting rather than a love square development. margery has pretty much been lying drunk for the entire second season so far (except for tht useless spell she sent at konoe).

the only interesting part so far is the identity of konoe. all the other stuff about the keeper or yuji's training is too vague. my guess is konoe's like a doll or clone of hecate, which hecate may eventually recall to absorb the accumulated memories with yuji.

[Mentar]

im also getting real bored of S2. The relationship development seems completely reset, as shana takes back her confession and yoshida hasnt changed much.

Keep in mind, there wasn't much to reset in the first place. At the end of S1, the relationship between Shana and Yuji was definitely NOT romantic in nature. As long as you explain away the "Yuji ga suki", _nothing_ is there to be reset. And Yuji didn't consider Shana in "that" way before, either.

the only obvious change are the lunches. im also waiting for some more action fighting rather than a love square development. margery has pretty much been lying drunk for the entire second season so far (except for tht useless spell she sent at konoe).

Well, but that is where I _do_ see developments. At the end of S1, Shana went through turmoil because she believed that Yuji was about to leave her behind. That he would not be there for her anymore. This is _not_ about romantic issues.

Now, recently, Shana is gradually getting more aware of those - her jealousy not only towards Yoshida, but now towards Konoe aswell. As someone who is much more interested in character development instead of the slashing of the monster of the week, I've been very pleased with how they depicted the gradual slippery slope not only for Shana, but also for Yoshida (since the OP indicates that Ike will eventually make his move).

So, there ARE developments, but slow ones, and on the character angle. Nicely done, imho.

the only interesting part so far is the identity of konoe. all the other stuff about the keeper or yuji's training is too vague. my guess is konoe's like a doll or clone of hecate, which hecate may eventually recall to absorb the accumulated memories with yuji.

My bet is also on a clone. Well, let's see where it goes.

[holyman282]

Keep in mind, there wasn't much to reset in the first place. At the end of S1, the relationship between Shana and Yuji was definitely NOT romantic in nature. As long as you explain away the "Yuji ga suki", _nothing_ is there to be reset. And Yuji didn't consider Shana in "that" way before, either.

Couldn't agree with you more there, like i said, looking at them going to school after the incident in the last ep of S1 nothing really has changed except that Yoshida declares Shana her rival. In fact it was the unresolved issue reguarding Shana and Yuji's relationship that actually made me want a S2 and in this season they are certainly developing it.

I don't see how you can see S2 as a reset where as i though that S1 was a reset and found that S2 is actually delving deeper into their relationship..

As for those wanting more action, you have to be prepare for character development as Shana isn't all about fighting the evil bad guys, like i said go watch some shounen anime if you want action, Shana's more about the development of characters as they face obstacles such as the Bal Masque.

[minhtam1638]

As for those wanting more action, you have to be prepare for character development as Shana isn't all about fighting the evil bad guys, like i said go watch some shounen anime if you want action, Shana's more about the development of characters as they face obstacles such as the Bal Masque.

Um... don't you mean shoujo (to replace the second "Shana", not "shounen")?

[HayashiTakara]

zomg I found something interesting. Near the last scene, there was symbolism to the relationship between Yuji and Konoe, When Yuji and Konoe were smiling at eachother the parent bird sat on Yuji's shoulder while Konoe had the baby bird. So if I'm right about this, there is no romantic feelings involved with Yuji towards Konoe and vice versa. I think that Konoe isn't even mentally capable of thinking about romance, its basically like a baby chick that clings onto whatever they see first and claims that thing as their parent.

lol, after writing that I see the similarity in behavior with Konoe and a baby bird, and why the writer was constantly using bird references. Thats why I believe Yuji doesn't really get why Shana is upset, since its more of a paternal feeling he has towards Konoe. Also, you gotta give Yuji credit that he never stopped thinking about Shana, cause as we all know, he does like her in that sort of way.

Edit: fixed

[SeedFreedom]

@HayashiTakara

I think you meant paternal, because Yuji as a mother... no let's not go there. ;)

[minhtam1638]

@HayashiTakara

I think you meant paternal, because Yuji as a mother... no let's not go there. ;)

What? Men can't be Mr. Moms?

[SeedFreedom]

All i'm saying is i better not see pictures of Yuji in a dress posted.

[Deathkillz]

oh wow...the drama...

i cant wait to see shana join forces with yoshida the way this is going :p

i still say that hecate is hecate - you maybe good at playing dumb but you aint pulling the wool over my eyes :p (just watch that statement backfire ^^).

err...what can i say? still pretty much below S1 standards for me so im rather neutral with the whole goingons. one thing i dislike though...yuuji seems to have lost his brain during the time we last left him to rot...sheesh :rolleyes:

[lua thien]

zomg I found something interesting. Near the last scene, there was symbolism to the relationship between Yuji and Konoe, When Yuji and Konoe were smiling at eachother the parent bird sat on Yuji's shoulder while Konoe had the baby bird. So if I'm right about this, there is no romantic feelings involved with Yuji towards Konoe and vice versa. I think that Konoe isn't even mentally capable of thinking about romance, its basically like a baby chick that clings onto whatever they see first and claims that thing as their parent.

lol, after writing that I see the similarity in behavior with Konoe and a baby bird, and why the writer was constantly using bird references. Thats why I believe Yuji doesn't really get why Shana is upset, since its more of a Maternal feeling he has towards Konoe. Also, you gotta give Yuji credit that he never stopped thinking about Shana, cause as we all know, he does like her in that sort of way.


That's a nice interpretation on symbolism.

Maternal instinct... I thought Chigusa would be a lot better at that.

A big brother/ little sister relationship between Yuji and Konoe seems more likely than any romance.

I wonder though on whether the birds also symbolize the desire for freedom. A friend of mine suggested that if Konoe turns out to be Hecate, the birds represent Hecate's desire to be free of cold and emotionless prison-like state that she had endured before ever meeting Yuji in Season 1. There hasn't been any mention or scenes of the Balle Masque after the 3rd episode so something big is over the horizon.

[tabun]

zomg I found something interesting. Near the last scene, there was symbolism to the relationship between Yuji and Konoe, When Yuji and Konoe were smiling at eachother the parent bird sat on Yuji's shoulder while Konoe had the baby bird. So if I'm right about this, there is no romantic feelings involved with Yuji towards Konoe and vice versa. I think that Konoe isn't even mentally capable of thinking about romance, its basically like a baby chick that clings onto whatever they see first and claims that thing as their parent.

lol, after writing that I see the similarity in behavior with Konoe and a baby bird, and why the writer was constantly using bird references. Thats why I believe Yuji doesn't really get why Shana is upset, since its more of a paternal feeling he has towards Konoe. Also, you gotta give Yuji credit that he never stopped thinking about Shana, cause as we all know, he does like her in that sort of way.
Nice observation, hadn't thought of that! That would also be one more hint in the direction of Konoe being some sort of proxy or clone, seeing the total lack of common sense and the like. I am now even more intrigued than before... and in dire need of episode 5. Oh well, no fast forward button IRL ;(

[DazarGaidin]

Well there was that whole 'make you own memories' thing that yuji told hecate...

[fuzzles]

Well there was that whole 'make you own memories' thing that yuji told hecate...

true but yuuji was also pretty cruel what he said after that i thought he could've refrained from saying his last one or two lines like you're empty etc

[lua thien]

I wonder how'd it would be if Margery was ushered into training Yuji just on one occasion.

[Davidj]

Personally I read a few people's dislike of the this episode is that they didn't like the inconsistent way Yuji is being displayed.

I find his behaviour entirely consistent. He does not have a romantic interest in Konoe, but he always tries to help someone who needs help, and nobody needs more help than Konoe.

[fuzzles]

I find his behaviour entirely consistent. He does not have a romantic interest in Konoe, but he always tries to help someone who needs help, and nobody needs more help than Konoe.

exactly he thinks he's just doing the right thing which is also his duty since he was assigned to help her

[holyman282]

I've been reiterating that point about Yuji not seeing Konoe as a romantic interest for several pages. He sees no reason why Shana would be angry at him. He's just helping someone helpless.

[KholdStare]

I like Konoe, I'm not a "Shana-fan," and I didn't really like this episode. It's really kinda pointless and I got really bored before the halfway mark. It does feel filler-like. Pretty much the only thing that vouched somewhat for this episode is Shana's cuteness when she ate that ice-cream. Just to clarify to die-hard fans I'm not dissing the series or seasons, but this episode. 5/10 Uh yeah, there's pretty much nothing else. I hope the next one will be like the third.

[grey_moon]

I find his behaviour entirely consistent. He does not have a romantic interest in Konoe, but he always tries to help someone who needs help, and nobody needs more help than Konoe.

Then explain the festival scene in S1. He ran off to comfort a girl whilst leaving his mum and hundreds of others in a dangerous situation. What is your definition of consistency? Just S2? Just this episode?

[anselfir]

I've been reiterating that point about Yuji not seeing Konoe as a romantic interest for several pages. He sees no reason why Shana would be angry at him. He's just helping someone helpless.

Dude, you saying evil waifu is not a romantic interest when the development in novel makes evil waifu closest to the proverbial goal.

fact is, if the 'dark side' can live in peace and not do bad things, evil waifu will be evil waifu forever

[Sinestra]

oh wow...the drama...

i cant wait to see shana join forces with yoshida the way this is going :p

:

The last scene with Yoshida and Shana eating lunch together on the roof blew what was left of my brain cells for tha day. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. A Yoshida/Shana Coalition would be so much fun to watch. But could their combine powers beat the natural Moe-ness of Konoe/Hectate?

[HayashiTakara]

4 episodes in and people are already calling it the doom, so sad.... I love the way the season is going, I say the best way to enjoy a show is to turn off your brain and enjoy it for what it is, if you over think things you won't enjoy things, if you can't help but be over analytical then maybe watching shows isn't for you? nothing wrong with being simple, you tend to enjoy things more, being too high strung will just give you grey hairs and end up hating alot of things, imo thats no way to live.

[fuzzles]

4 episodes in and people are already calling it the doom, so sad.... I love the way the season is going, I say the best way to enjoy a show is to turn off your brain and enjoy it for what it is, if you over think things you won't enjoy things, if you can't help but be over analytical then maybe watching shows isn't for you? nothing wrong with being simple, you tend to enjoy things more, being too high strung will just give you grey hairs and end up hating alot of things, imo thats no way to live.

exactly everyone's expectations are so high, i feel this is a good thing since they're moving like this theres defiantely gonna be 24 episodes again!

[minhtam1638]

exactly everyone's expectations are so high, i feel this is a good thing since they're moving like this theres defiantely gonna be 24 episodes again!

I hear it's 26, making this and SnS 1 combined a straight 50 episodes.

[grey_moon]

The last scene with Yoshida and Shana eating lunch together on the roof blew what was left of my brain cells for tha day. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. A Yoshida/Shana Coalition would be so much fun to watch. But could their combine powers beat the natural Moe-ness of Konoe/Hectate?

I do wonder what their next move will be, I think you make a very good point as it will be interesting.

Also it kinda throws a spanner into the argument that it is just Shana acting uber jealous of kinda caring oni-chan Yuji. If Yuji is just being protective, why the *bleep* is Yoshida jealous too?

[minhtam1638]

I do wonder what their next move will be, I think you make a very good point as it will be interesting.

Also it kinda throws a spanner into the argument that it is just Shana acting uber jealous of kinda caring oni-chan Yuji. If Yuji is just being protective, why the *bleep* is Yoshida jealous too?

Personally, here's what I think:

Shana: Stop it with the selfishness. It just seems that everytime a girl gets close to Yuji, you get bothered by it and try to split the two up. Either admit to Yuji that you're jealous so that he can spend more time with you or just stop flat out being jealous.

Kazumi: Face it. You just don't know Yuji enough to know that he cares for just about everyone. If you only knew Yuji is just protecting Fumina like an older sibling protects a younger one, then, you wouldn't be as jealous as Shana. I'd say ignore both Shana and Fumina for a while and get to know Yuji anymore. Ask him questions about his personal life and stuff. Then you'd be all set.

[grey_moon]

In real life we are expected to be able to read in-between the lines. Lots of situations aren't spelt out for us, but instead we have to analyse the situation and then judge for the best course of action. Why does any one expect Yuji get it any different? It must be a very sorry life for someone if they can't build up personal (or even working) relationships if every part of it must be spelt out to them in black and white.

Beforehand it was just Shana acting jealous, now we have 2 very different girls acting jealous of the same guy. How can anyone believe that the guy isn't acting in a way to deserve them to be jealous?

[Kiyoru]

I saw the 4th episode today, finally..

Personally, I'm a Shana fan and despite her selfishness and her attitude, I want her to be with Yuuji the most. Sure, Kazumi is cute, but she doesn't know a thing about Yuuji and she kind of just butted in when Shana was starting to feel comfortable with Yuuji, which I didn't like. Meh, minhtam is right about Yuuji and Fumina, imo. He's just being her guidance and protecting her.

[DazarGaidin]

I think the whole 'he just helping her cause he was assigned or likes to help others" argument went out the window with the near kiss scene in the park there. That was a very intimate moment no matter how you spin it.

[minhtam1638]

I think the whole 'he just helping her cause he was assigned or likes to help others" argument went out the window with the near kiss scene in the park there. That was a very intimate moment no matter how you spin it.

Wrong. Yuji was only observing the similarities between Fumina and Hecate. If you recall episode 13 from the first season, Yuji actually blushed when he nearly kissed Shana. I don't recall seeing this here in the park. Besides. Fumina only smiled. It's not as if she was going in to kiss Yuji.

[DazarGaidin]

Sure your right, thats all it was as they gazed into each others eyes lol Im sorry but that didn't look like a 'wow she DOES look a lot like hecate' moment to me, although the thought might have crossed his mind it didnt take him that long to ponder it, or them to be that close, etc etc. I might have to watch the scene again but it seemed like more than that to me.

[Aquifina]

I do wonder what their next move will be, I think you make a very good point as it will be interesting.

Also it kinda throws a spanner into the argument that it is just Shana acting uber jealous of kinda caring oni-chan Yuji. If Yuji is just being protective, why the *bleep* is Yoshida jealous too?

Because she was unlucky to see that very odd "moment" between Konoe and Yuuji, which is somehow related to Hecate. That's the only non-protective-brother scene between Yuuji and Konoe, and even then, I still wouldn't call it romantic, but Yoshida of course doesn't know any specifics about the weird synchronization between Yuuji and Hecate. Note that Shana *never* saw that scene.

[Aquifina]

Sure your right, thats all it was as they gazed into each others eyes lol Im sorry but that didn't look like a 'wow she DOES look a lot like hecate' moment to me, although the thought might have crossed his mind it didnt take him that long to ponder it, or them to be that close, etc etc. I might have to watch the scene again but it seemed like more than that to me.

It was intimate, but intimate in the sense that Hecate had once absorbed all of Yuuji's thoughts and memories, and it's clear that Konoe has some kind of connection to that. I don't think we should see the scene as romantic--not yet, at least.

I personally think Konoe herself sees Yuuji as more a trusted protector than a love-interest in any romantic sense. She comments, for example, on Shana's absence on the walk to school, and seems disappointed--hardly the reaction of someone out to have Yuuji to herself. The whole clutching Yuuji's shirt thing also looks more like a kid clinging to a parent than anything else.

[Aquifina]

Personally, here's what I think:

Shana: Stop it with the selfishness. It just seems that everytime a girl gets close to Yuji, you get bothered by it and try to split the two up. Either admit to Yuji that you're jealous so that he can spend more time with you or just stop flat out being jealous.

Kazumi: Face it. You just don't know Yuji enough to know that he cares for just about everyone. If you only knew Yuji is just protecting Fumina like an older sibling protects a younger one, then, you wouldn't be as jealous as Shana. I'd say ignore both Shana and Fumina for a while and get to know Yuji anymore. Ask him questions about his personal life and stuff. Then you'd be all set.

Well, I think Shana's more insecure than selfish. She's obviously terrified of Yuuji being with someone else, which is ironic, because I think Yuuji is disappointed that (in his view) Shana has no romantic interest in him. And in Shana's defense, her weird upbringing makes it very hard for her to deal with situations like this.

[KaneDragon]

Great, so Konoe is a Friend To All Living Things (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.FriendToAllLivingThings), huh?

It's been said plenty in the rest of the thread, but I didn't like this episode that much. Too much Yuji being extremely dense, Konoe being mentally challenged, etc... 6/10 is labeled average, so I'll go with that.

Points I still liked:
1) Yuji doing bullet time, albeit for just one strike.
2) Shana and Yoshida on the roof.
3) Batman-meido? :D
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4289/snapshot20071031225542yi9.th.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20071031225542yi9.jpg)

[grey_moon]

Because she was unlucky to see that very odd "moment" between Konoe and Yuuji, which is somehow related to Hecate. That's the only non-protective-brother scene between Yuuji and Konoe, and even then, I still wouldn't call it romantic, but Yoshida of course doesn't know any specifics about the weird synchronization between Yuuji and Hecate. Note that Shana *never* saw that scene.

So if in Yuji's shoes and you thought gosh she looks just like Hecate would you be standing there gazing into her eyes? There must be a better reason for Yuji's behaviour it is irrational.

Yuji quite rightly so hates the Guze no Tomogara, and his parting shot at Hecate in the end of S1 shows that despite synchronizing with her. He can be quite mean and spiteful when he wishes to be. Yuji in this episode (and most of S2 imho), is not consistent with Yuji portrayed in S1. To me he jerks around like a puppet on a string and the puppeteer is suffering from multiple personality disorder.

[minhtam1638]

So if in Yuji's shoes and you thought gosh she looks just like Hecate would you be standing there gazing into her eyes? There must be a better reason for Yuji's behaviour it is irrational.

Yuji quite rightly so hates the Guze no Tomogara, and his parting shot at Hecate in the end of S1 shows that despite synchronizing with her. He can be quite mean and spiteful when he wishes to be. Yuji in this episode (and most of S2 imho), is not consistent with Yuji portrayed in S1. To me he jerks around like a puppet on a string and the puppeteer is suffering from multiple personality disorder.

Yeah, but you have to remember that in Yuji's mind (and that Fuzetsu blood clotting confirmation in episode 3), Fumina is human. He has quite a dislike for Tomogara, I'll give you that, but he pretty much cares for every human being, and Fumina (despite what may or may not happen) is a human being for the time being, so we have to think in that manner.

And what the heck is this puppet nonsense? As the duty of a Mistes, Yuji must stay close to Shana, or who knows what will happen to Misaki City? I'll give you the multiple personality disorder, but it can't be helped. For god's sake, Wilhelmina will seek Chigusa's advice this week. How can we know how to get rid of this psychological issue?

[grey_moon]

And what the heck is this puppet nonsense? As the duty of a Mistes, Yuji must stay close to Shana, or who knows what will happen to Misaki City? I'll give you the multiple personality disorder, but it can't be helped. For god's sake, Wilhelmina will seek Chigusa's advice this week. How can we know how to get rid of this psychological issue?

I've already posted quite a bit on why I think Yuji doesn't act consistently, only holyman has really responded to any of them.

What duty?

Its the wish of the Guze no Tomogara to split him open like a Kinder Egg for the prize inside.

It is the duty of the Flame Haze to split him open to scatter the Reiji Maigo.

There is no duty for Yuji, he imho is a first ever case and quite rightly he is trying to cling onto as much humanity as possible by trying to survive. People keep super imposing his wishing to sacrifice himself for his class on all his actions. Try to understand his situation, he thought he was about to disappear and wanted his existence to actually mean something. As soon as Yuji finds out he no longer will disappear you have to consider him differently.

[Aquifina]

So if in Yuji's shoes and you thought gosh she looks just like Hecate would you be standing there gazing into her eyes? There must be a better reason for Yuji's behaviour it is irrational.

Yuji quite rightly so hates the Guze no Tomogara, and his parting shot at Hecate in the end of S1 shows that despite synchronizing with her. He can be quite mean and spiteful when he wishes to be. Yuji in this episode (and most of S2 imho), is not consistent with Yuji portrayed in S1. To me he jerks around like a puppet on a string and the puppeteer is suffering from multiple personality disorder.

Well, I think the flashback to the synchronization shows that there is some kind of odd power to Konoe. I don't think Yuuji is reacting that way just because of a passing resemblance; Konoe is NOT some ordinary person who just happens to look like Hecate.

Also, although Yuuji certainly didn't like Hecate, do remember that he thought of striking her with blutsaugher, but DIDN'T. He was harsh, but he was also being honest--I don't think Yuuji truly *hates* Hecate, even if he didn't appreciate the synchronization.

[grey_moon]

Well, I think the flashback to the synchronization shows that there is some kind of odd power to Konoe. I don't think Yuuji is reacting that way just because of a passing resemblance; Konoe is NOT some ordinary person who just happens to look like Hecate.

Also, although Yuuji certainly didn't like Hecate, do remember that he thought of striking her with blutsaugher, but DIDN'T. He was harsh, but he was also being honest--I don't think Yuuji truly *hates* Hecate, even if he didn't appreciate the synchronization.

He could have said something like "You will get your wish by not consuming humans and experiencing life for yourself" or some gumpf like that.

Yuji does hate Guze no Tomogara, he has no issue at all in helping Shana eliminate them. He starts realising that some are not as bad as the rest, but I don't think Hecate fits the bill, as she was part of the group that hounded him and that nearly wiped out the city. Actually how much of her going bat sh*t can be attributed to his parting shot?

I agree that Konoe is not some ordinary person and I personally am waiting for the writers to give me some dazzling explanation to his behaviour.

[minhtam1638]

I've already posted quite a bit on why I think Yuji doesn't act consistently, only holyman has really responded to any of them.

What duty?

Its the wish of the Guze no Tomogara to split him open like a Kinder Egg for the prize inside.

It is the duty of the Flame Haze to split him open to scatter the Reiji Maigo.

There is no duty for Yuji, he imho is a first ever case and quite rightly he is trying to cling onto as much humanity as possible by trying to survive. People keep super imposing his wishing to sacrifice himself for his class on all his actions. Try to understand his situation, he thought he was about to disappear and wanted his existence to actually mean something. As soon as Yuji finds out he no longer will disappear you have to consider him differently.

Excuse me. but what the heck do you mean there's no duty for Yuji? True, he is trying to cling on to humanity, but is he really? Yes, he did think about disappearing and therefore wants his existence to actually mean something. In order for Yuji... or anyone for that matter (not limited to Shakugan no Shana), to exist, he must have some sort of duty, or else he might as well not exist at all. Perhaps I was wrong in my previous post about what his duty really is, but he does have one. Otherwise, a 5th Flame Haze will just waltz in and split him open. It's much more logical in that matter.

[Aquifina]

He could have said something like "You will get your wish by not consuming humans and experiencing life for yourself" or some gumpf like that.

Yuji does hate Guze no Tomogara, he has no issue at all in helping Shana eliminate them. He starts realising that some are not as bad as the rest, but I don't think Hecate fits the bill, as she was part of the group that hounded him and that nearly wiped out the city. Actually how much of her going bat sh*t can be attributed to his parting shot?

I agree that Konoe is not some ordinary person and I personally am waiting for the writers to give me some dazzling explanation to his behaviour.

It's my firm belief that Hecate is *not* an evil character in any conventional sense of the term, and that this will become significant in some way in connection with Konoe. She certainly isn't *good*, but I really don't think she should be lumped in the same category as the rest of Bal Masque. All we know about her is that she for some reason feels profoundly empty, and wants to somehow fill that emptiness with experiences--everything else seems secondary--and we never see her actually eat humans. That dude whose name I don't remember mentions at one point that she's pure--in that sense, I think she's exactly that--she is what she is, neither good nor evil.

[minhtam1638]

He could have said something like "You will get your wish by not consuming humans and experiencing life for yourself" or some gumpf like that.

Yuji does hate Guze no Tomogara, he has no issue at all in helping Shana eliminate them. He starts realising that some are not as bad as the rest, but I don't think Hecate fits the bill, as she was part of the group that hounded him and that nearly wiped out the city. Actually how much of her going bat sh*t can be attributed to his parting shot?

I agree that Konoe is not some ordinary person and I personally am waiting for the writers to give me some dazzling explanation to his behaviour.

Then why don't we wait for Episode 5 to air so that we can settle this discussion? I got a lab report to do anyway.

[grey_moon]

Excuse me. but what the heck do you mean there's no duty for Yuji? True, he is trying to cling on to humanity, but is he really? Yes, he did think about disappearing and therefore wants his existence to actually mean something. In order for Yuji... or anyone for that matter (not limited to Shakugan no Shana), to exist, he must have some sort of duty, or else he might as well not exist at all. Perhaps I was wrong in my previous post about what his duty really is, but he does have one. Otherwise, a 5th Flame Haze will just waltz in and split him open. It's much more logical in that matter.

The logic is defied quite nicely because of the whole emotion thing. Shana doesn't want to split Yuji because she obviously cares about him. Alastor stood up for Yuji and helped divert maid-san because he cares about Shana. Finally maid-san realised how much Yuji meant to Shana and because she cares about Shana she no longer wishes to split Yuji (that much ;p).

Old Margery would have in my opinion used Yuji as bait, the new Margery should go seek out help from the AA.

Of course with S2 the fact he now has an existence as big as a lord does bring up some serious issues of splitting him safely to hide the Reiji Maigo. But if Yuji seriously had some form of duty and if his personality was as self sacrificing and caring about the city as some people seem to think he is. Then he could have easily found out what is Remy's wish and if it was for the greater good sacrificed himself for it and safely hidden the hougu.

[minhtam1638]

The logic is defied quite nicely because of the whole emotion thing. Shana doesn't want to split Yuji because she obviously cares about him. Alastor stood up for Yuji and helped divert maid-san because he cares about Shana. Finally maid-san realised how much Yuji meant to Shana and because she cares about Shana she no longer wishes to split Yuji (that much ;p).

Old Margery would have in my opinion used Yuji as bait, the new Margery should go seek out help from the AA.

Of course with S2 the fact he now has an existence as big as a lord does bring up some serious issues of splitting him safely to hide the Reiji Maigo. But if Yuji seriously had some form of duty and if his personality was as self sacrificing and caring about the city as some people seem to think he is. Then he could have easily found out what is Remy's wish and if it was for the greater good sacrificed himself for it and safely hidden the hougu.

Oh, come on. Shana lucked out with Alastor, Wilhelmina, and Margery, but the world does not revolve around one little girl. Some Flame Haze has to step in and reallocate the Reiji Maigo as a Flame Haze would and should, or else more trouble will happen.

Like that will ever happen.

I'd go on with this argument, but I'd rather not go off topic from the issue first presented at hand, as I usually do.

[grey_moon]

Oh, come on. Shana lucked out with Alastor, Wilhelmina, and Margery, but the world does not revolve around one little girl. Some Flame Haze has to step in and reallocate the Reiji Maigo as a Flame Haze would and should, or else more trouble will happen.

Like that will ever happen.

I'd go on with this argument, but I'd rather not go off topic from the issue first presented at hand, as I usually do.

You telling me you actually believe another Flame Haze is going to step into the territory of 3 Flame Hazes never mind challenge at least 2 of them to kill Yuji?

Shana might have lucked out, but another Flame Haze coming to top Yuji off I think has been covered by various aspects of the story.

[minhtam1638]

You telling me you actually believe another Flame Haze is going to step into the territory of 3 Flame Hazes never mind challenge at least 2 of them to kill Yuji?

Shana might have lucked out, but another Flame Haze coming to top Yuji off I think has been covered by various aspects of the story.

Don't question the thought processes of mindsets you've never met before. (not referring to me)

[grey_moon]

Don't question the thought processes of mindsets you've never met before. (not referring to me)

That wasn't a question. It has already been stated quite clearly in S1 how if a Flame Haze steps into another's territory they normally slug it out.

[serenade_beta]

but I don't think Hecate fits the bill, as she was part of the group that hounded him and that nearly wiped out the city. Actually how much of her going bat sh*t can be attributed to his parting shot?

All she does is pray. In a way, maybe the episode of Kaibutsu Oujo with the "That" spider monster is a good example. To us, it is evil, but it could be necessary for the other person. Hecate might not have had an evil intention, but she wanted to fill her "empty" existence. (Kind of like eating food and killing animals to get it).

Second sentence reply- Probably quite a bit.

That dude whose name I don't remember

Senben (Thousand Changes) Sydonay?

Then why don't we wait for Episode 5 to air so that we can settle this discussion? I got a lab report to do anyway.

Less than a whole day left.

Good luck on the report. :)

[Mirrinus]

This episode was kind of disappointing...I now actually dislike Konoe more than Yoshida, which is rather significant. Seriously, how does this girl survive even a single day? It's almost cringe-worthy...

And while we're on the subject, Yuuji has got to be one of the densest male leads ever. I liked him in the first season, but so far this season he's just been spiraling downward. Having the capacity of a King of Guze apparently still doesn't mean he has a clue.

Also, I agree that Ike really needs a bigger role. He's already one of my favorite characters; why isn't he doing more? He only gets like one or two dialogues in an entire episode devoted to relationship drama! That's just not right.

I did sort of like the scene with Margery and Wilhelmina meeting up though. For some reason, their working together just really amuses me. We need an awesome tag-team match with the two of them against Bel Peol and Sydonai.

[serenade_beta]

Seriously, how does this girl survive even a single day? It's almost cringe-worthy...

She has a butler. I assume he does everything, from bringing her food to helping her undress.

[grey_moon]

All she does is pray. In a way, maybe the episode of Kaibutsu Oujo with the "That" spider monster is a good example. To us, it is evil, but it could be necessary for the other person. Hecate might not have had an evil intention, but she wanted to fill her "empty" existence. (Kind of like eating food and killing animals to get it).


That is a good point, but I think the complications lie in when you have one sentient race feasting on another. Even if it is instinctive to consume another to survive, I believe as soon as a person that our society deems as normal (not psychopathic etc), has to take life of another to survive they cannot help, but put themselves into the shoes of the victim and emphasise with their situation. What I mean is the ability to emphasize with others is counted not just as a standard social skill, but as a requirement to interact normally with others. To take the life of another sentient being I believe that they have to consider the others as a form of lower life (which the Guze no Tomogara most probably do), or at least have some form of justification. I think a great example of this is how children in Japan were conditioned to believe that the rest of Asia were lower on the human food chain.

Yuji never saw that Hecate just prayed. He just knows she is one of the leaders of Balle Masque. Does anyone remember if her memories went into Yuji when they bonded?

[minhtam1638]

Yuji never saw that Hecate just prayed. He just knows she is one of the leaders of Balle Masque. Does anyone remember if her memories went into Yuji when they bonded?

I don't recall seeing that myself, but it's quite possible.

[Davidj]

So if in Yuji's shoes and you thought gosh she looks just like Hecate would you be standing there gazing into her eyes? There must be a better reason for Yuji's behaviour it is irrational.

.

Of course there is. Yuji has a magical connection to Konoe.

[grey_moon]

Of course there is. Yuji has a magical connection to Konoe.

That currently is conjecture, just as we might believe Konoe is Hecate or not, I'll take a leaf out of minhtam2448's book and not carry on with this until later episodes.

[minhtam1638]

That currently is conjecture, just as we might believe Konoe is Hecate or not, I'll take a leaf out of minhtam2448's book and not carry on with this until later episodes.

What's that supposed to mean?

[grey_moon]

What's that supposed to mean?

Well earlier you said there is no point continuing a specific conversation until we saw a few more episodes (well that is how I read it), and in regards to Davidj's statement about there being a magical link between them, I don't think he can make that one without seeing some more episodes.

[holyman282]

In other words grey moon will give shana a few more ep to see if they can justify Yuji's actions before condemning this ep for it's inconsistency in character. Perhaps there is a reason for Yuji's behaviour that will be revealed later on.

[grey_moon]

In other words grey moon will give shana a few more ep to see if they can justify Yuji's actions before condemning this ep for it's inconsistency in character. Perhaps there is a reason for Yuji's behaviour that will be revealed later on.

Hee hee thank you holyman282 that is exactly what I am going to do :)

I'm considering being less vocal with my condemnation of characters so early on in a series as it does get a little heated at times, but I have to say that I do find a lot of peoples comments to give me a much broader view on the situation.

[Ratix]

Didn't really like this episode... Too much emphasis on trivial things, making this episode feel quite filler-ish. The storylines not going anywhere much with this episode considering the relationship between Konoe and Yuji has been established last episode, this episode, from my point of view, tries to strengthen that to the viewers but it fails IMO.

And Shana needs more screen time <_<. MORE SHANA!

On a side note, Shana eating dessert = INSTANT LOVE <3

[kauldron26]

so this new season has made me really really question what it was i liked about the original show...

[bmkharuhiism]

I really liked this episode. It was nice seeing a jealous Shana and it was refreshing to see a jealous Yoshida.

I think that Konoe helps bring about a nice new twist in the relationships of all three girls with Yuji. Plus she's so cute.

Watching this episode made my entire day.

[blewin]

ep 4 introduces a rift between Yuji and Shana and Yoshida. I don't really much care for his relationship with Konoe, as we've already seen in ep 3 that he quite like her personality. But it's interesting to see how Shana and Yoshida got closer at the end. This new friendship between the two girls will probably become quite important later on, especially in unmasking Konoe (just my speculation, though Konoe's action looks genuine enough).