American TV Animation as of now: Opinon? [Archive]

solomon

2007-12-31, 03:19

Hey there, its 3 am and I'm bored so NEW POST TIME!

Anyways I'm an anime fan but before that I was a harcore GENERAL animation fan, which equates to mainly non anime american stuff, spanning many decades. I'm only 19 but thanks to syndication and cable (namely OLDSCHOOL cartoon network) I saw A LOT of OLD cartoons along with the new ones.

To keep it simple, I guess i could ask, How good or bad do you think the crop of american tv toons are right now? Comparison to other eras is fine, if you have other (preferably NON JAPANESE) cartoons to rate ours against that be awesome.
Of course, "good" can mean many things. I consider myself a bit of a coinisueur and maybe a little snooty so I tend to use good as was it a "quality" work as well as "entertaining" (once again subjectivity, but I just wanted to make it clear)

Anyways to start the post off; I say 2007 isn't really that great. There has been no breakout production that seems to do anything interesting, either for kids or adults. Oh sure I like Spongebob, King of the Hill I think is great, and South Park does earn mention. But nothing seems to break the mold or even really stick out as a quality show.

Admittedly, I may be a tad biased cause my childhood was in the 90s, when TV cartoons got GOOD again. (im sorry but 70s and 80s cartoons suck generally except for a TINY few, namely certain TV specials and garfield). Im sure a lot of you guys hitting 20 or older will rave about the unique stuff airing on FOX Kids, Nickelodean, Cartoon Network and Kid's WB. Plus you had the opening of adult works again like the Simpsons, Beavis and Butthead, duckman, Aeon Flux, South Park, Spawn, etc.

Historically a lot of mold breakers were made then, and many of them (including kid oriented stuff) had college and even adult fans. That really shocked some people, HAHA! Only other time such interesting things were happening was with TV cartoons in the 60s, (namely comedies like Hanna Barbera shows and Rocky and Bullwinkle. Action shows, well some were cool and ambitious for their time, like Johnny Quest. It and The Lone Ranger had cool artwork, but naturally action toons of the 60s have it hard going compared to our modern edgy stuff)

There is little actual hard correlation, (and plus it's due to age, nostaliga and biases:p) but the fall of terrestrial networks showing cartoons and the "mainstreaming" of the main kids networks (ie Disney and CN trying to copy Nickelodiean) coinciding with a drop in interesting works, and I love cartoons just as much as I did as a 20 year old as a 10 year old (DONT STONE ME!!)

Ok, enough of my gabbing, GO CRAZY!!!

KholdStare

2007-12-31, 03:45

In my opinion American animation isn't bad, but the ones that are good are mostly not focused on animation but some other aspect that attracts viewers. Of course I am talking about sitcoms such as South Park, The Simpsons, and Family Guy. Those I have respect for and I regard it as very good animation.

About cartoons targeted for a younger audience, there's one big problem. First of all, let's leave animation aside. There isn't really a cartoon that is targeted for a teenage audience, so all cartoons already turn me off because they're simply too "childish" and don't interest me. Also, there's only two genres, and it is either action or ... well those anime for girls that features a girl's daily life and problems (I don't even know how to classify this). Again, animation aside, American cartoons are missing three very important aspects that anime has: comedy, romance, and drama. Watching random action over time will really, really make a series boring.

Of course there are exceptions to these but they are very few. Two obvious and famous example are shows such as Sponge Bob SquarePants and Avatar: The Last Airbender. Sponge Bob is what I would classify as non-sitcom animated comedy. This is one among the few TV-Y7 cartoons that doesn't have random fighting but is rather focus on humor, very much like sitcoms but for a younger audience. This never gets old, since you can create new jokes but random action will just be...random action. The other I mentioned is Avatar, which is also shown on Nickelodeon and it features action, romance, comedy, drama, and in short, its plot is similar to an anime's plot, creating a good mix of genres that keeps the viewer's attention. Until now I can find no show similar to Avatar.

Well I'm not going to pretend like I hated all cartoons. Let's go back in time to Superman, Spiderman, Batman, and all that fun stuff. Even though they're pretty much episodic, there is a central focus, there is a clear background to the stories, they feature consistency of themes, and they have captivating adventures every episode. Right now it's really hard to find anything like this, and trust me, I've tried. One good semi-recent cartoon is Xiaolin Showdown, which had an interesting hook, episodes revolving around a central plot, and well, it was just enjoyable.

So now, let's talk about animation. However, let's not. Another thing that turns me off is the appearance of these non-human characters. Superman/batman/spiderman actually had...superheroes and villains resembling humans. Sure once in a while there's a creative villain, but most of the time semi-realism is kept. Right now I turn on the TV half of the time I will see some deformed robot or a half-crab Martian as the star of the show. About the animation, well they're not horrid (except when they're trying to animate a talking machine gopher), but they leave more to be wanted. As much as I hate Yu-Gi-Oh, I would rather watch that then some of the ones currently airing on Fox Kids and Kids' WB.

In summary, American cartoons are targeted to two audiences: adult and children. Younger children might like saturday/sunday cartoons, but I basically find very few cartoons that interests me. However, I'm not putting down current American animation. I'm pointing out its target audience, and since I'm not one of them, I stick with anime. It's that simple. I still enjoy South Park and Family Guy very much. I hope that animated sitcoms will never fall out of interest in society.

solomon

2007-12-31, 04:37

Interesting opinion. As for categories, I say it's mainly action and Non-action. I think action is dwarfed by non-action 2 to one. As for animation, Ed Edd and Eddy is the only show that has vibrant, interesting animation on American Tv now. After Disney closed down theyre overseas studios, the quality of disney tv toons went way down. And with few (VERY VERY few) exceptions, most cartoons arent interesting in terms of animation cause lets face it Korean sub contracting is just crap generally. It was an it probably always will be given the system.

As for "random action" I can kinda understand the argument about US stuff not being as interesting due to it being episodic. But if prime time tv (CSI?) can do it, so can animation but no one is doing it.

Daughter!

2007-12-31, 09:49

I don't love the overall quality of Western cartoons, but in terms of actual animation? I would take Western work over Japanese any day.

Neopluto

2007-12-31, 13:27

For western animation right now, it sucks. I hate to say it since I'm more of a W than E anime person. But seriously, the 90s were the golden age. Maybe the caliber of art wasn't as great, but what really mattered, the storyline and character development (stunted as they for "cartoons") was so much better than it is now.

CeDeR

2007-12-31, 13:30

thundercats and galactic hawks hahaha, simpsons

EXEs

2007-12-31, 13:42

Kids Next Door? Gawd, this is one amongst the slew of cartoons my brother watches. I hate 'em. There is simply no plot in most of the cartoons airing on Cartoon Network.

Miko Miko

2007-12-31, 13:58

Kids Next Door? Gawd, this is one amongst the slew of cartoons my brother watches. I hate 'em. There is simply no plot in most of the cartoons airing on Cartoon Network.

:heh: I know they don't have a set stroyline.. just random episodes :(

Western Cartoons are rubbish if you ask me.

Vexx

2007-12-31, 14:41

"Western" (or American) cartoons go through cycles.... shit-gold-shit-gold.

Mostly we're in a "shit" cycle this latter part of the decade. Its easier to tell after you've been around a few decades and finally are able to drop the "rainbow" you have around the cartoons you experienced first.

As over-hyped as Sponge Bob is (a massively cleaned up redux of Ren&Stimpy), I'd consider at least the first season or two of it to be somewhat golden.

As far as "adult" cartoons go (Futurama, Simpsons, South Park, etc) - they're pretty much based on the appearance of the creator rather than any time cycle. You have to get some consensus because for example, while I like the Groening products and South Park ... I find Family Guy and King of the Hill to be both lame and unfunny. Sometimes they are able to score some moral point though. Tastes differ, as they say
:)

Deathkillz

2007-12-31, 14:50

I find that what usually starts off as gold in american animations turn into flops as jokes are constantly being reused or painted over with a layer of paint to make it seem different. For me it is a case of "yea, it was funny for the first 100th times but you really need to try something different". Sadly one of my childhood enjoyments "The Simpsons" have gone down that route. Family guy is funny at times but it proves to be hit and miss with a dash of randomness...a lot of the comedy it uses is rather forced in that the audience laugh at the "WTF" and confusing. Examples include peter making a statement that starts of with "remember the time when..."

ZeusIrae

2007-12-31, 14:52

What about Avatar?I have never seen a single ep but some say it's good., then again it might be considered to too anime-ish to be american animation.

Anyway, I am curious about this show.

KholdStare

2007-12-31, 15:48

What about Avatar?I have never seen a single ep but some say it's good., then again it might be considered to too anime-ish to be american animation.

Anyway, I am curious about this show.

Avatar: The Last Airbender is my favorite fantasy/adventure cartoon after Seirei no Moribito.

solomon

2007-12-31, 15:59

Good point Vexx, about the whole shit, gold cycle. Some say the anime is in a bit of a shit cycle now, but from the 70s on I think you had a fairly consistent level of either mold breaking or just quality shows come out (not a huge amount) and this carries on into today, it's just a real select few.

Plus, while TV animation turned to shit during the 70s in america, it was really starting to get cool in 70s and 80s in japan what with Gundam, Lupin, Yamato and Macross and such.

It was moderately cool when Disney started to make tv cartoons (some of the animation on stuff like Darkwing Duck and Goof Troop could be DAMN good sometimes) and really cool WB got back in the game. But neither have made anything interesting to me in the last 3-7 years. (Disney had Mickey Mouse Works, and WB had Justice League)

One other random probably meaningless correlation.

I noticed a drop off in interesting shows after the looney tunes* were banished to premium cable. I mainly saw them on Nickelodean and Kids WB, thank god they had them cause I was ignorant of the Bugs Bunny and Tweety show on ABC until about 95 (pointless I know, but still)

(*Ok it's not actual TV animation, but being top of saturday morning for 40 years deserves some mention)

Kristen

2007-12-31, 17:07

Papaya

2007-12-31, 17:34

KholdStare

2007-12-31, 17:54

I don't think anime can ever be in a shit cycle, because there's always at least one good show per season for me, even though lately at least one tends to stay at one.

Ledgem

2007-12-31, 18:48

I think one of the biggest differences between American and Japanese animation are the plotlines. Most American animations seem to be self contained episodes, as in one could be watched without seeing the episodes before without a problem. As such, they continue until every joke/storyline they have is overused and overdone. They also are toned down for the younger audiences, and even the serious ones have terrible comic relief.
Japanese animation tends to be more streamlined with more complex story. As such, the shows in Japan tend to have less episodes in a series, usually 13-24.
I agree with this, and I'd add that another significant difference is that most American shows seem designed to go on indefinitely. There is no start and end to them - they're just there, and the only time they disappear is when the ratings go bad. This isn't true for all shows - Drawn to Life (I believe it was called) had a season, and then never showed again. However, the reason was apparently because it didn't do as well as had been hoped for - it was quite possible for a second season to occur.

With most anime that we see, you know that it's going to be 10-13, 24/26 or (rarely) 52/54 episode series, and that's going to be it. If it's really popular, you might see a continuation of the story in a few years, but otherwise the story is relatively set. Part of this may have to do with the fact that many series are based off of manga, although plenty of seres have diverged from their manga roots. In my opinion, knowing that the series will definitely have an end makes it seem more serious, even if it's a comedy series. You get attached, and it ends - you have fond memories of it, you have that emotion of having finished something wonderful, and then you move on. With many of these American shows, they're just always there. It's not so special, they don't build on each other, and they get tired.

Series length is really personal preference, though. I always enjoy it when a series I really like goes over the 26-episode mark, because you know you're in for a long treat. On the other hand, around episode 150 or so of Naruto I started getting bored and stopped watching. I may pick up Bleach again, but around episode 70-something I became bored with it as well.

As over-hyped as Sponge Bob is (a massively cleaned up redux of Ren&Stimpy), I'd consider at least the first season or two of it to be somewhat golden.

As far as "adult" cartoons go (Futurama, Simpsons, South Park, etc) - they're pretty much based on the appearance of the creator rather than any time cycle. You have to get some consensus because for example, while I like the Groening products and South Park ... I find Family Guy and King of the Hill to be both lame and unfunny. Sometimes they are able to score some moral point though. Tastes differ, as they say
I'm not a fan of Sponge Bob. As a younger child, I found Ren and Stimpy (as well as similar shows, such as Rocko's Modern Life) to be stupid, crass (sometimes to the point of being gross), boring, and definitely not funny. You knew that they were trying to be funny, which only made it worse.

I think Family Guy has its moments, but overall I feel that watching those shows is pretty much a waste of time, to me. The humor style doesn't connect well with me that often, and so I feel that I'd rather be watching something else. Not all anime comedies connect well with me either, of course, but those that do (such as School Rumble) are quite entertaining.

I guess this post makes me sound like a humorless critic. We all have different tastes, as Vexx pointed out...

Vexx

2007-12-31, 19:23

Ending

2007-12-31, 19:38

There has been no breakout production that seems to do anything interesting, either for kids or adults. Oh sure I like Spongebob, King of the Hill I think is great, and South Park does earn mention. But nothing seems to break the mold or even really stick out as a quality show.
I know they don't have a set stroyline.. just random episodes.

Western Cartoons are rubbish if you ask me.
My thoughts. Above all else I appreciate a coherent storyline that advances in every episode. This is seconded by a mature and creative story, but without both I don't see any reason to watch the show.

Yes, japanese animations are riddled with random throws, unfinished endings, and fillers, but at least I can trust to find a good show every once in a while. All that is coming from the rest of the world just seems to... dull and down-to-earth that it's boring.

Solace

2007-12-31, 19:46

Ren & Stimpy (the grandfather of most of that stuff) was only really funny for about one season and then fell into the recycle pit.

But what Ledgem points out in the main portion of his post is what initially drew me into my love of anime in the first place.

The freaking stories/series START and then END. Almost no American television has this sort of thing outside of PBS and the long dead concept of the mini-series. Heroes came pretty close but as we're seeing it just won't go away either.

One of my favorite things about anime is that many of them (not the mainstream never-ending tripe) tell a story and then close the damn book and its done.

I think it's more accurate to say done "enough". Honestly there are some pretty open endings to a lot of anime, although not for the typical american reasons (to make more money with a second season). But I do agree with you.

I think it's better to say most anime stories have a *point*. They don't go on and on and on with each episode having no real connection to the previous. Each episode builds upon the previous and reaches some kind of conclusion, even long running shows like Bleach, Naruto, and Dragonball Z, which do their stories in arcs.

The reason people rave about Avatar so much is that it breaks all the conventions of your average American show. It's building characters, filling in backstory, explaining the world, and driving to an end. It does all of this with good animation, voice acting, and music. That's.....unheard of for American animation, and even puts a lot of live action shows to shame.

Most American shows end because interest wanes, not because the story reached a conclusion. But that's the nature of how television in America has evolved.

chison

2007-12-31, 20:27

excuse of my english...

for me,i do like simpson and feel OK with American cantoon(as a cartoon,for a laugh),
but,South Park, The Simpsons ,micky mouse, priness ,Sponge Bob ,have to much Western-style add in it ,which is artisticly friendly...to kids
come to a points where now all the western-charater not human(creature)
so ,kids cannot be any charater themselve!,so no one hate any charater ...

it also lead to a point ,if their want to talk deep-love,the W-style don't allow them to do anything harmful(to kids)

but i do think "the last airbender" going into a good direction for american TV,they really did well...the story plot is something that a teenager can talk to their parents(a good example to make anime more acceptable for their parents to accept anime,which means ,more people go downs into the anime art field to starting to change something ,stand for something for themselve...)
japanese old anime used to be good old positive just like this
althought japan starts with more love story!

solomon

2007-12-31, 20:47

Admittedly, a big thing that draws people to anime is it's storytelling.

I personally like it overall cause it's different, doesn't necessarily mean "better".

The sitcom or episodic format is perfectly fine, but normally there has to be a lot of unique elements within a concept, or it must reinvent itself. Like the simpsons, the stretches between 90-93 and 93-99 show unique differences in writing style and tone, (first part is more low key regular sitcom/very character based, second part more irreverence/plot or gag or comedy craft based) but still was high quality. Particularly dramatic shows. American cartoons have never done show at the frequency that Japan has.

All in the Family is an example of the show that had many unique elements to it that broke mold at the time as did Seinfield, it just takes a lot of different ideas and spins (within a certain restraint to keep from "betraying a shows original spirit" or "getting played out") to make it work. I don't begrudge hollywood for that if they do it right.

Also, I say anime cliches are just as bad as cliches in pop storytellling of any format. And theyre rife with cliche ridden shows, sometimes overhyped ones too. But every year, you manage to see a Tv cartoon that reaches out past anime's little confined world and subcultre and bring something new to shake things up a bit.

Stuff like Chevalier d'eon and Ghost Hound and Eva and Bebop and Champloo and Paranoi Agent. Historical based pieces (good or bad) earn praise for digging into a countries history and culture (Kenshin, Otogizouchi, Ayakashi Ayashi).

And animation, well that's different. The best Japanese Animation in terms of visuals (and this is a very select few folks) in a way are more interesting then those I've seen animated for american television. They have limited animation that can have very controlled tight drawings that are expressive. They've surpassed us in the use of cinematography and staging. They can have excellent design work. We could too, but we are hampered by our subcontracting system and bad management.

Character animation that is worthy of praise can be really hard to find but it's there and boy is it interesting. Animation around the world shares principles but the japanese (when they actually make good animation) use old principles very differently. It's due to the past nature of producing animation for tv under tight budgets and influence from manga that yields the interesting rare unique character animation. (Normally nerds call stuff like that "sakuga" anime)

You know that "sakuga" term what I and wao used to gab about? Go to Dailymotion and YouTube, type in sakuga and you'll see what I mean. Only thing that compares is Ren and Stimpy (YES, IM SERIOUS, especially when John K. was working on them) and certain episodes of Disney and Warner Brothers televison cartoons.

Anime is QUITE inbred still, but American Animation is inbred and timid, unable to take more risks more often. But Hollywood only takes risks when they are confortable, that's how it's been scince forever.

KholdStare

2008-01-01, 04:52

Royal_Devil

2008-01-01, 11:00

Well I'm not sure what MY opinion is but I can roughly summarize the world's opinion. There are so many anime out there that were dubbed into English yet there are so few American cartoons that were dubbed to Japanese. Besides from sitcoms, I can't think of any others that were dubbed into other languages, yet I can think of many famous American dubs for anime in the span of five seconds. That's enough in my opinion to generalize that no one (else) cares much about American animation.

Well of course Disney movies usually have an international release. And let's not forget their influence on the early series.

Off the top of my head I've seen X-men, Boondocks, Avatar, Beast Wars, and Mighty Morphing Power Rangers dubbed into Japanese. There's also their adaption of the Powerpuff Girls. And I hear Tom and Jerry is still very popular over there. The rest of the world I'm not sure of.

Though I will say their are a number of European animations I've seen that don't get the recognition they deserve internationally so I would hardly rate popularity for quality.

-KarumA-

2008-01-02, 14:41

i grew up with the old school cartoons of Hanna Barbera and other good manifactures such as Mainframe, Disney and Marvel
but as i have to say, the cartoons shown now are no longer original if you ask me...

the plots are the same.. the methods are just a little different..
Skyhawk machines look like the flying versions of Biker Mice from Mars and that is just a small example..
there are so many shows focussing ont he old, build up tension, something goes wrong, something goes wronger, something is solved and we laugh about it with a joke... seriously after 10 years i grew tired of that... id rather have something with a decent story line that has some development...

okay now i am not saying that all cartoons are bad fromt he west, i love avatar because of the story line and the fact that it actually developes..
other than that, i found fairy odd parents hilarious because it is so comical together with spongebob and danny phantom, but danny phantom gets an average because at some point the jokes and basic plot gets to you..

in the current age, in my country cartoons fromt he west get dubbed (well yeh where dont they do it nowadays) but even still the type of shows are just.. uugh plot wise and designed.. overly wrong.. racoons fighting over who gets the most trash? ooh where has this world come to..
but i guess what annoys the worst si lack of development.. anyone who watches a show nowadays, except for a few then, can pick up and know the basic storyline... and it stays a basic storyline.. and that is what si annoying about it all.. the ideas have been done.. character gets poisoned all the sudden there is like 'one' cure they have to get to get him healthy which always has to be turned into a potion some way or the other and it always goes wrong in the last 'lets get the cure' scene.. used in too many different series.. used too much.. now a days it is hard to find somethign really original... and i guess that is what agrivates me the most about it.. the originality is gone.. what si left is a re run of plot used in different methods.. silly events, silly storylines and silly characters which have become so over used that you can just tell from apicture who is who.. and what role that character has.. if it is either leadership and courage, or silly prankster who messes up but makes up the last second.. or the big guy who is always hungry and always seems to have a lesser role.. or the girl who ofcourse is always tough and falls in love at some point but never quite makes it to a relationship because of the reset at the end of the episode for development...

i miss those days of Beast Wars, Gargoyles, Power Rangers, X-men and of course Spider-man TAS... atleased there was development and drama in them...

Demongod86

2008-01-02, 14:44

Batman Beyond & Swat Kats were so the shit.

Dxon

2008-01-02, 14:48

I can get a good laugh out of Simpsons, South Park and Family Guy. They are fun. As for the other cartoons they just suck. So I just watch either mentioned above or anime. ^^

Wervy

2008-01-02, 16:54

As of now the stuff coming out of the states targeted at adults is just pure garbage. Maybe if you have the mind of a retarded 3 year old your might get somthing out of fart and jokes about people shittin themselves, but anything for sane people is few and far between.

I do like the Boondocks though :rolleyes:

6raika

2008-01-02, 16:57

I can get a good laugh out of Simpsons, South Park and Family Guy. They are fun. As for the other cartoons they just suck. So I just watch either mentioned above or anime. ^^

x2 ...and happy three friends ;)

solomon

2008-01-02, 21:03

geh, i never understood the happy tree friends fandom. (i can find redeemable things about family guy as cheap thrills but not that)

Hmm, someone (although a tad curt on it) had a good handle on the "adult" toons. Too many "adult" toons aren't. They're for teenagers. With the exception of the Venture Bros. (which could appeal to someone over 27) and Robot Chicken (in my Aunts house, it's a "family" viewed show, heh) most Adult Swim shows are juvenile in a real bad way.
I admit to liking ATHF sometimes, but it's hardly "adult".

Shock value just for the hell of it on tv was really cool in the late 80s and early 90s, (cause we had the smarmy reagan years to deal with) but it's all over the tube now. And it's tiresome.

Personally, I think some of the best kids animation had something that parents and older folks could enjoy. Take Huckleberry Hound and Yogi Bear same thing with Rocky and Bullwinkle (like R/B better) they were clever and worked for both adult and child.

Incidentally, I don't really see the appeal of spongebob to older non cartoon nerd audiences. I could understand Rocko or Ren and Stimpy or Bugs Bunny or the Flinstones or Animaniacs.

Spongebob seems more blase, no overt pop culture references, no real note worthy innendo or real subversive jokes (especially compared to older nicktoons). It also isn't as well written or animated/designed as the earlier 90s hits were.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy spongebob but it puzzles me why older fans like it so much.

Aoie_Emesai

2008-01-02, 21:14

American made cartoon usually lack storyline and usually go for on by an episode by episode bases and sometimes related and refer back to earlier episodes like all cartoons. Animes are good, but american animation won't be dead anytime soon.

Sorrow-K

2008-01-02, 21:43

geh, i never understood the happy tree friends fandom. (i can find redeemable things about family guy as cheap thrills but not that)
I found Happy Tree Friends funny at first, but once the formula became obvious it lost its appeal.

Outside of the mainstream prime time comedies like The Simpsons, Futurama, South Park and Family Guy, I don't see much American TV animation. I very rarely watch any Cartoon Network anymore since the majority of stuff on it is, well, very much aimed at younger people and I couldn't be bothered going out of my way to find out what the good stuff is, and then make time in my schedule to sit down and watch it. I watch TV rarely and even when I do, I channel surf.

My opinion of Family Guy is much the same as Vexx and Deathkillz: it's hit and miss because it's so forced. Occasionally it can be rather witty, but at its worst it falls just short of hitting the audience over the head with a baseball bat and telling them: "this is a joke... laugh now plz".

I have a lot of respect for South Park, though. It can be very clever at times, but it avoids being pretentious by having a nice amount of low-brow stuff mixed in. It's incredibly consistent as well. I've only seen a very low number of episodes that I haven't found funny. And it's somehow managed to avoid growing stale over all these years (as many other comedy series tend to do), which I suspect is due to the fact that it's almost always topical.

The Simpsons isn't anywhere near as good as it was in its hay-day, but I think most people recognize this. I'm not sure I totally understand Futurama's popularity, though. There's something not quite right about it that I can't seem to put my finger on. Whatever it is, I just can't seem to find it funny. I generally walk away from most episodes saying "meh".

I wouldn't say any of these shows have great art and/or animation, though. Sure, they tend to be fluent, but the lack of detail makes them rather bland to look at. Although, in South Park's case, that's probably quite deliberate.

solomon

2008-01-03, 02:03

I enjoy futurama. reason it's lower tier is because it's neither witty or borne with the same "humanity" as the best simpsons episodes, nor as gutsy as south park was.

Still I think it was overall good.

Looking back I found an actual DECENT cartoon from the 80s, GASP!!! It was the Real Ghostbusters by DIC and often animated by TMS actually. I saw it in local syndication reruns but I hear it came on ABC weekends first (right after the flinstone kids and pooh bear, yech).

J. Micheal Stryacinzki (i know sp, but jeez that name) who wrote novels and Babylon 5 was a head writer and managed to give the show a couple of fun creative elements to the ghost busting stories. Plus it's really dark for 80s cartoon with overt references to doomsday and the occult in a alot of eps. It attemps to bring over the glib breezy interplay of the movies moderately well.

Overall not really cheesy at all and fairly good. Anybody see it during it's original run?

USB500

2008-01-03, 02:40

Looking back I found an actual DECENT cartoon from the 80s, GASP!!! It was the Real Ghostbusters by DIC and often animated by TMS actually. I saw it in local syndication reruns but I hear it came on ABC weekends first (right after the flinstone kids and pooh bear, yech).

J. Micheal Stryacinzki (i know sp, but jeez that name) who wrote novels and Babylon 5 was a head writer and managed to give the show a couple of fun creative elements to the ghost busting stories. Plus it's really dark for 80s cartoon with overt references to doomsday and the occult in a alot of eps. It attemps to bring over the glib breezy interplay of the movies moderately well.

Overall not really cheesy at all and fairly good. Anybody see it during it's original run?
:D I certainly enjoyed The Real Ghostbusters whenever the TV aired its episode every week. I missed it after I damaged the last Ghostbusters VHS tape I bought :( . Of course, I also enjoyed watching the X-Men for its serious story development, but since these twos had been unaired here, I dropped everything else and went for anime instead.

Twisted Reality

2008-01-03, 03:06

Kids Next Door? Gawd, this is one amongst the slew of cartoons my brother watches. I hate 'em. There is simply no plot in most of the cartoons airing on Cartoon Network.
Hey I find Kids Next Door pretty funny. It's essentially the world from a kid's point of view. Adults are evil authoritarians that you fight off with magically improvised weapons from your fortress of solitude. . .*cough*. . .tree house.

And it isn't a just a tree house. It's your base. In your head, it's brimming with electronics and high-tech security.

The show is basically about the perspective I had as a kid. And I find that pretty funny.

The appeal pretty much cuts both ways, whether you are young or old. It's pretty much the fantasy kids already live in. Adults will probably be reminded of their own youth and pick up some of the irony that the younglings won't. It parodies both the adult world and the world of children.

It lacks a highly linear and complex plot, but it has plenty of story.

To be blunt: There is a lot of anime that has too much of the former and none of the latter. This is a case of talking a lot without actually saying anything.

raikage

2008-01-03, 07:58

Rookie103

2008-01-03, 08:21

The kids anime is a load of rubbish, take Ed, Edd and Eddy; Ed eats buttered toast and gravy and keeps chicken under his chair. He also has mushrooms in his bathroom.

Oppius

2008-01-03, 08:26

Americans should stop copying anime if they want to succceed like anime.

Just look to Totally Spies, Martin Mystery, Mega XLR and many other that I cannot remember their names.

Neopluto

2008-01-03, 11:04

I think I'd like to venture that maybe some people like anime better than western animation because there's the allure of something different.

and btw, cartoon network is complete trash now. Maybe foster's home for imaginary friends is redeemable. I watched a few episodes, and it's slightly demented, but it keeps good humor.
I think toonami wasn't too bad.
Cable is absolutely evil. 'nuff said.

solomon

2008-01-03, 11:30

Oh yea, fosters. One of the few good cartoons on the tv. Craig McCracken and his cohorts are vets so they've got timing and gags down pat. Plus it's easily the best of those cheapo flash toons they make nowadays, the design is great.

As for the RGB, no it's not painful, it has a BIT of cheese due to dialogue, but it's managable. If your still a fan of the films, give the first 78 or so episodes a try before ABC went all ACT and shoehorned kiddy Slimer cartoons into the mix.

Rookie103

2008-01-03, 11:36

Royal_Devil

2008-01-03, 17:34

The kids anime is a load of rubbish, take Ed, Edd and Eddy; Edd eats buttered toast and gravy and keeps chicken under his chair. He also has mushrooms in his bathroom.

If you're going to insult something at least get your facts straight. Double D is the smart on. Ed with one "d" is the awesome one who loves buttered toast and chickens.

Americans should stop copying anime if they want to succceed like anime.

Just look to Totally Spies, Martin Mystery, Mega XLR and many other that I cannot remember their names.

Totally Spies and Martin Mystery originate in France actually. The anime-like look is due to the prevalence of manga there (I believe it's second only to Japan itself) and it's influence on up and coming artists there. It's like telling the anime gods of a few decades ago to not "copy" Disney.

And Megas is awesome. In a world with too many genetically superior bishies in mechs it's nice to have a guy like Coop in the pilots seat.

Rookie103

2008-01-04, 06:43

If you're going to insult something at least get your facts straight. Double D is the smart on. Ed with one "d" is the awesome one who loves buttered toast and chickens.

Totally Spies and Martin Mystery originate in France actually. The anime-like look is due to the prevalence of manga there (I believe it's second only to Japan itself) and it's influence on up and coming artists there. It's like telling the anime gods of a few decades ago to not "copy" Disney.

And Megas is awesome. In a world with too many genetically superior bishies in mechs it's nice to have a guy like Coop in the pilots seat.

Oh shit yeah, put Edd insted of Ed.

Daughter!

2008-01-04, 23:04

What a lot of people are forgetting (In terms of why American shows last sooo long as opposed to animes that are very short) is that the purpose for Entertainment is money, and that's it. Until nobody watches it, 'Saw' will continue for many, many, many chapters regardless of artistic merit, if there ever was any to begin with.

Personally, if Anime shows could get some decent voiceactors that I didn't cringe when listening to, fix up the dubbed scripts a bit, I'd like it a lot more. I understand American animation is falling down the tubes, especially with three dimensional animation (Which, to me, looks awful) rearing it's head. But compare animation 40, 30, or even 20 years ago to Anime now and it'll make Anime look like a 3 fps bad lip synced sham.

Last post on the first page says, "Most American shows end because interest wanes, not because the story reached a conclusion. But that's the nature of how television in America has evolved." This is totally true, in nearly every case. And it's sad really, just like it's sad to see a band sell out, and it's the same thing really. Most good things end or decrease drastically in quality when people find out you could make millions with the smallest chicken scratch on a piece of paper.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the overall consensus about Avatar: The Last Airbender, however. Mostly because the few times I've watched it, I just see most situations in the show to be mellow dramatic, mostly because I find the entire premise to be somewhat blown out of proportion.

EDIT: Has anyone noticed the increase of Western cartoons being created in Flash? I understand cartoons being made in Korea because the budget would be astronomical, but Flash is about as cheap as you could get. It's much like making a film for a million dollars (Jackass 2) and having it be number one for three weeks straight.

Defron

2008-01-05, 00:07

Cartoon Network is broken beyond repair.

Yeah, I walked in on my younger sister watching a live action show on cartoon network, I was :twitch:.
I haven't seen any new stuff I like, used to watch dexters laboratory and ed edd and eddy (both of which became crap later on, but early episodes were good) and I loved Johnny Bravo. I dunno, I guess I feel the same way others who have posted in here do, american animation goes in crap-gold cycles.

Vestus

2008-01-05, 00:22

The only American cartoons I really liked were:

Invader Zim (just hilarious)
Justice League (so good)
Batman and Superman (just as good)
Teen Titans (man great combination of action and comedy)

That's all I can think of atm. I'm not sure if there's more or not.

Edit: OMFG, how can I forget about Avatar!!!! I guess it's because it's so good that I consider it Anime XD.

Yakult

2008-01-05, 00:38

I've always loved Dexter's Laboratory!

CrowKenobi

2008-01-05, 11:08

What a lot of people are forgetting (In terms of why American shows last sooo long as opposed to animes that are very short) is that the purpose for Entertainment is money, and that's it. Until nobody watches it, 'Saw' will continue for many, many, many chapters regardless of artistic merit, if there ever was any to begin with. American shows last so long is because of syndication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_syndication).

Strip/daily syndication

Off-network syndication can take several forms. The most common form is known as strip syndication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripping_%28television%29) or daily syndication, when episodes of a television series are shown daily five times a week. Typically, this means that enough episodes must exist to allow for continual strip syndication to take place over the course of several months, without episodes being shown again. If a small number of episodes exist, the entire run of the series can be shown in a matter of weeks. As explained by David Crane (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=David_Crane_%28televison%29&action=edit) (creator and executive producer of Friends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends)), "A show will go in syndication for sure when it has reached its 5th year or 100th episode. If a Network Show only runs for 2 years or so there is usually no demand for syndication." However, there are exceptions, such as the option is the 65-episode block (common in Children's programming), which allows for a 13-week cycle of daily showings, so there will only be four repeats in a year.
In some cases, more than one episode is shown daily. Half-hour sitcoms are sometimes syndicated in groups of two or four episodes, taking up one or two hours of broadcast time.
Sad, but true. :D

:cool:

Neopluto

2008-01-05, 11:23

The only American cartoons I really liked were:

Invader Zim (just hilarious)
Justice League (so good)
Batman and Superman (just as good)
Teen Titans (man great combination of action and comedy)

Edit: OMFG, how can I forget about Avatar!!!! I guess it's because it's so good that I consider it Anime XD.

Doug
Batman the Animated Series
Batman Beyond
Double Dragon
Fantastic Four (I look at it now and cringe, but I really loved this show)
Johnny Quest
Rugrats
Beast Wars
street sharks (lol...)
TMNT
X-men

Maybe they're not true "classics", but I still liked these shows a lot more than what's out there now.

solomon

2008-01-05, 13:14

JustInn14

2008-01-05, 15:39

There's RARELY any american TV show that doesn't screw up after 2-3 seasons... No. Seriously.

KholdStare

2008-01-05, 15:41

There's RARELY any american TV show that doesn't screw up after 2-3 seasons... No. Seriously.

Avatar doesn't screw up (in my opinion), but they also know when to end the series. They will stop after the third season (61 episodes) and will not continue and try to pull filler episodes out of their ass.

Daughter!

2008-01-05, 17:44

Avatar doesn't screw up (in my opinion), but they also know when to end the series. They will stop after the third season (61 episodes) and will not continue and try to pull filler episodes out of their ass.

Just because the storytelling is good doesn't mean they won't do that. When you're one of the most successful shows on a network, you don't stop because the story is over. Don't let the good story or conclusive season finales fool you, because when you're making millions of dollars, and could get more millions of dollars, you take the chance, regardless of artistic credibility.

They will not end the series until no one watches it, and it will be cancelled. Because as sad as this is, money runs Entertainment, and inspires most shows to continue doing what they do.

A writer may know when to end a series, a producer doesn't.

KholdStare

2008-01-05, 18:01

Maybe not, but they planned to end it. I guess we'll see. Even if they don't, we're not going to completely abandon it. Take a look at Rurouni Kenshin. It's well known, and often I see people telling others to watch the first two arcs then stop. There's nothing wrong with that.

Prince of Chronics

2008-01-06, 03:37

Are they really going to end Avatar after Book 3? It would make sense to at least put out a book 4 for the air element to finish it off. It's definitely a good show imo, quite episodic at times, but entertaining non the less. I can take watching their filler which I can't say about Bleach and Naruto.

I'm actually a new fan, recently grabbed the first two complete books on DVD and looking forward to grabbing the Book 3 collection later this year!

Neopluto

2008-01-15, 21:57

Ah, yea the Bruce Timm WB action cartoons. Excellent. The Spider Man and X men cartoons from the 90s are very good too. Although not as ambitious, I thought for an episodic series, MIB the series was very enjoyable.

Incidentilly, has anyone here seen a good portion of X men evolution? It was one of the last few good cartoons Kids WB had after the pokemon invasion, but I never watched enough of it to give a good opinion.

I saw a few episodes, don't know if that qualifies, but I really didn't like it. I felt like it was cheap and sold out to trying to be "cool" for the next generation of watchers. A lot of the history for the characters were just completely wrong and I didn't like the overall high-school atmosphere.

Rurik

2008-01-16, 11:47

Well, There has been many interesting opinion regarding the topic, I have to say that in terms on quallity, when the American Animation are done good, it can go on par to some of the best Japanese Animation out there. The bad thing is that there is a lot of bad shows that comes from US. Of course I don’t know every anime out there in detail, but I don’t recall one were I felt I was getting stupid just by wathcing it.

The main problem with American Animation is censorship and to some point political correctness; until recently, anything that even suggested either violence or nudity was not really present in the show, this itself created very boring shows, imagine yourself watching a Show like Spider and His amazing friends where I cant recall seen no one punching anyone, and then jump to a show like Dragon Ball or Saint Seiya, where there were lots of punches and the story was actually not cheesy.

What Shows deserve props as the more eye catching and that any Japanese animation follower can enjoy as much? You have Batman the animated series (considered by many the best American Animated series so far). You have the Animated series of X-men, and You have Spawn animated series (a show intended only for adult viewers).

One thing you can note trough the history of American Animated series is that the best Animated series, were actually based on comic books.in other words they were not original concepts for the Anime.

I don’t include in my synopsis shows like Futurama, or Family guy or South park, because personally I don’t consider those shows as cartoon or animated series, I consider them to be sitcoms, that happens to be Animated. :p

Vexx

2008-01-16, 12:57

Rurik

2008-01-16, 16:26

You're limiting your analysis of "american animation" to "superhero action series" when you say "the best Animated series, were actually based on comic books.in other words they were not original concepts for the Anime."

Looney Toons, Animaniacs, Pinky&The Brain, Freakazoid, etc were all anime-original.
Ren&Stimpy, Samurai Jack .. more recent examples.

Shows like the Flintstones and Johnny Quest were originally presented during prime-time in the evenings after dinner.

Sorry I had a Typo , as I wanted to say “some of the best”. But the general idea was that original concepts where the ones that rather had less chance to be good. also Note that I said "until recently" as Im refering to 80's and 90's

And I’m including almost any type of Animation, but only leaving out those sic-com types given what I said in my post, I really don’t consider those to be animated series itself, series like Flintstones or Simpson or SP, whereas, Series like DuckTales, DarkWing Duck, Gi Joe, Bravestar, Ghostbusters, Thundercats, Jonny Q., for me are what you can call the ones I consider to be American Anime…but that’s just my POV.

One thing, and not to sound nitpicker, but, while Jonnhy Q. was an original character, the concept was taken from a Radio Serial.

And Animanics, Freakazoid and Pinky and the Brain had Steven Spielberg as executive producer -* You can’t really miss on that!

What Japanese anime delivers for me that *most* modern american animation .. and for that matter most modern american live-action television doesn't .... is:
1) a self-contained story. One that starts and finishes. Like "mini-series" used to do and mostly PBS still does when it borrows a British mini-series.
2) character definition AND evolution - which goes with not being just episodic.
3) exploring interesting *ideas* and concepts -- I'm lucky if I see such a thing on american television more than a few times a decade anymore. What are the chances of seeing a character drama like Spice and Wolf existing on american television (live or animated)? ......... bleh.

Yes, that’s are the same reasons for me (I have gone in a phase where I can't recall the last time I followed a TV series), and furthermore, I’ll say that one of the reason why Super Hero Animation sometimes fills in those 3 points you gave, is because they share something similar to Japanese Animation: they are usually based on a Comic Book/Manga.

King Lycan

2008-01-16, 16:58

the only ones i like were
X-Men
Batman Beyond
Avatar
Boondocks

Vexx

2008-01-16, 18:04

Sorry I had a Typo , as I wanted to say “some of the best”. But the general idea was that original concepts where the ones that rather had less chance to be good. also Note that I said "until recently" as Im refering to 80's and 90's
...
And Animanics, Freakazoid and Pinky and the Brain had Steven Spielberg as executive producer -* You can’t really miss on that!

Ahh, understood. What I've also noticed is something you just pointed out... that the spikes in innovative programming are usually centered around one individual and then only for a couple of years (Spielberg and his team, Groening, Kricfalusi, etc) before the innovation gets snuffed for whatever reason.

Ziv

2008-01-17, 05:54

I don't remember there being any action cartoons growing up until Dragonball Z. The biggest thing I hated about supposed "action" cartoons was the complete and total lack of a competent, capable hero, and the substitution of a random incompetent child as the main character. Then again, maybe it was because all I had to watch was the abomination known as the Superfriends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Friends). Seriously! Who the heck wants to watch two random civilians run around doing stuff that the superheroes should be doing!? I wanted to see action!

And it wasn't just an isolated incident. It's as though every single action show HAD to have a random incompetent kid character who gets more screen time than the hero. (see Jackie Chan Advantures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Chan_Adventures)) I always cringed whenever the hero would constantly have to save the useless kid. Basically, think Inuyasha with Shippo as the main character. WHO THE HECK WANTS TO WATCH THAT!? What could possibly posses them to think that children wanted to fantasize about "helping" superheroes, rather than "being" superheroes!? I figure that's the main reason Dragonball Z became so popular. There was a complete lack of actual action shows, and Dragonball Z filled the void with Action, Action, and more action. Furthermore, it actually had characters who got injured or died! Even if they could be brought back to life, it was still way more dramatic than any of the junk that was on at the time.

Oh and someone mentioned Samurai Jack. I didn't think it was that good. Sure it had a nice visual style, but it didn't have enough character development to justify the dramatic focus and shots. There was a lot of eye candy, but without any character to provide substance to the drama, it was just an empty shell.

There's something not quite right about it that I can't seem to put my finger on. Whatever it is, I just can't seem to find it funny. I generally walk away from most episodes saying "meh".

It almost seems to focus more on character development than on comedy, which kind of confuses you as to whether you should take it seriously or not, which in turn lessens the impact of jokes.

raikage

2008-01-17, 07:49

I don't remember there being any action cartoons growing up until Dragonball Z. The biggest thing I hated about supposed "action" cartoons was the complete and total lack of a competent, capable hero, and the substitution of a random incompetent child as the main character. Then again, maybe it was because all I had to watch was the abomination known as the Superfriends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Friends). Seriously! Who the heck wants to watch two random civilians run around doing stuff that the superheroes should be doing!? I wanted to see action!

And it wasn't just an isolated incident. It's as though every single action show HAD to have a random incompetent kid character who gets more screen time than the hero. (see Jackie Chan Advantures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Chan_Adventures)) I always cringed whenever the hero would constantly have to save the useless kid. Basically, think Inuyasha with Shippo as the main character. WHO THE HECK WANTS TO WATCH THAT!? What could possibly posses them to think that children wanted to fantasize about "helping" superheroes, rather than "being" superheroes!? I figure that's the main reason Dragonball Z became so popular. There was a complete lack of actual action shows, and Dragonball Z filled the void with Action, Action, and more action. Furthermore, it actually had characters who got injured or died! Even if they could be brought back to life, it was still way more dramatic than any of the junk that was on at the time.

So I take it you missed Batman, X-Men, Spider-man, GI Joe?

Maybe even Thundercats and He-Man (my memory's a little fuzzy on those)?

Ziv

2008-01-17, 07:55

So I take it you missed Batman, X-Men, Spider-man, GI Joe?

Maybe even Thundercats and He-Man (my memory's a little fuzzy on those)?

I do recall X-men and the Thundercats being on occasionally, (not often enough to watch regularly) but I don't remember any GI Joe, Spider-man, or Batman shows being on.

Neopluto

2008-01-17, 08:12

I don't remember there being any action cartoons growing up until Dragonball Z. The biggest thing I hated about supposed "action" cartoons was the complete and total lack of a competent, capable hero, and the substitution of a random incompetent child as the main character. Then again, maybe it was because all I had to watch was the abomination known as the Superfriends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Friends). Seriously! Who the heck wants to watch two random civilians run around doing stuff that the superheroes should be doing!? I wanted to see action!

And it wasn't just an isolated incident. It's as though every single action show HAD to have a random incompetent kid character who gets more screen time than the hero. (see Jackie Chan Advantures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Chan_Adventures)) I always cringed whenever the hero would constantly have to save the useless kid. Basically, think Inuyasha with Shippo as the main character. WHO THE HECK WANTS TO WATCH THAT!? What could possibly posses them to think that children wanted to fantasize about "helping" superheroes, rather than "being" superheroes!? I figure that's the main reason Dragonball Z became so popular. There was a complete lack of actual action shows, and Dragonball Z filled the void with Action, Action, and more action. Furthermore, it actually had characters who got injured or died! Even if they could be brought back to life, it was still way more dramatic than any of the junk that was on at the time.

Oh and someone mentioned Samurai Jack. I didn't think it was that good. Sure it had a nice visual style, but it didn't have enough character development to justify the dramatic focus and shots. There was a lot of eye candy, but without any character to provide substance to the drama, it was just an empty shell.

It almost seems to focus more on character development than on comedy, which kind of confuses you as to whether you should take it seriously or not, which in turn lessens the impact of jokes.

To that I'd say that they're trying to target kids with huge imaginations. I mean, I can't deny I enjoy watching that kind of thing from time to time because it implies that I can be that hero or be in that impossible situation. Of course, not all of them are spectacular. /makes a face

Rurik

2008-01-17, 10:15

So I take it you missed Batman, X-Men, Spider-man, GI Joe?

Maybe even Thundercats and He-Man (my memory's a little fuzzy on those)?

As much as I liked Gi-Joe, I did had a trouble with the show…ever heard the expression “never bring a Knife to a Gun Fight” ?

Gi-joe were supposed to be soldiers, and they begun the battle with their Laser Guns (not rifles), but somehow along the way the bad guys and the good guys ended up fighting Karate between each other!:rolleyes:

Vexx

2008-01-18, 17:17

JustInn14

2008-01-18, 18:55

It really wasn't until the anime started seeping into the American landscape again in the 90s (nods to Pokemon and such) that things changed a bit for the better. The "thinkofthechildren" imagination-snuffers still keep things pretty much ruined though with "wtf" news items like the original Sesame Street season being "not recommended for children" recently (omigod, Cookie Monster *smokes* introducing Monsterpiece Theatre).

*sigh* Parents just won't realize that,,, Their kids are dumb. Nothing can be done about it. ESPECIALLY not changing already horrible TV programs to be more "Suitable" for their "Fragile" (weak) little minds, and nothing WILL be done about it. IMO, their kids should be able to be smart enough to know that "IT's a friggin' muppet. It's not human. It's not "Rea;", either.". There's my 1 cent for this topic. :)

Solace

2008-01-19, 05:56

Yeah the "think of the children" thing struck animation pretty badly back in the late 70's early 80's. It's a tired old banner that people take up, pretending to be a shield for others when they themselves are the ones actually offended.

Were cartoons violent? Perhaps. But in such an exaggerated way. GI Joe? WORST SHOTS EVER. They made the A-Team look like good in comparison. Almost every show was filled with "moral lessons" and commercialism. It's not a big secret that most cartoons are designed to be half hour advertisement blocks.

For some good old nostalgia, check out www.retrojunk.com. It's a kind of database of old television, mostly about cartoons and kids shows. They don't host any episodes but they do have a lot of the opening and closing sequences. Pretty fun for a trip down memory lane.

Ledgem

2008-01-19, 15:09

*sigh* Parents just won't realize that,,, Their kids are dumb. Nothing can be done about it. ESPECIALLY not changing already horrible TV programs to be more "Suitable" for their "Fragile" (weak) little minds, and nothing WILL be done about it.
I think that's a bit harsh. The children are not dumb. In reality children will look up to various figures and try to mimic what those figures do, it's true. It's the job of the parents to ensure that the child grows normally and doesn't misbehave either way. Parents today are attempting to do this by cutting out what they perceive to be negative influences, rather than talking with their children and doing some actual parenting. I don't believe this is the right way to go about things.

Of course, it's easy to spout all of that off for those of us who aren't parents. If I had a young child I'm sure I'd be worrying at least a little every time they were exposed to something not quite OK, and wondering if they now thought it would be acceptable to do it. This would be especially true if I weren't able to spend as much time with them as I'd wanted to. (Perhaps I'm a budding control freak :heh:)

Were cartoons violent? Perhaps. But in such an exaggerated way.
I remember someone saying something interesting about this once. They stated that the violence that we see in cartoons and games is really not too much different than the violence that young boys imagine while playing, it's just that now the mothers (and perhaps fathers who didn't play that way) can see it. It'd be quite a shock, and of course we all have different comfort levels about violence, even in play.

For example, does anyone remember the game Deus Ex? My friends and I played it quite heavily in high school. Being a sensitive individual who tends to get rather absorbed in games, I always opted to use the tranquilizers against "human" enemies until it simply became too difficult. To someone watching me play, I'm sure it would have looked like I'd just crossed over the border of caring about life and became homicidal. For crying out loud, I was even making head shots - why not simply shoot the enemies in the arm to make them run away? But then, those would be the thoughts of a passive observer who isn't worrying about having to deal with advancing through the level, or worrying about having to deal with regrouped enemies.

One of my friends played a bit differently, and took delight in getting to the rooftops of buildings in the city levels and sniping the homeless bums. Does that mark him as a homicidal maniac? We all thought it was a bit odd, but it hasn't erased his moral conscience, and he's a perfectly nice guy. But to the observer who isn't rooted in the game, or in the movie/show, you just pick up on random things and have to wonder about how the person engrossed in it is being impacted by it. It's a fault the vast majority of us share - we're too judgemental, even when we're not in a place to form a proper judgement.

Ziv

2008-01-19, 15:30

I remember someone saying something interesting about this once. They stated that the violence that we see in cartoons and games is really not too much different than the violence that young boys imagine while playing, it's just that now the mothers (and perhaps fathers who didn't play that way) can see it. It'd be quite a shock, and of course we all have different comfort levels about violence, even in play.
Absolutely. It seems to me that whoever is overreacting to this has never seen any boys' drawings. I recall everyone I knew drew nothing but huge collages of stick-figures being massacred.

HayashiTakara

2008-08-24, 09:28

Mystique

2008-08-24, 09:39

By western animation, do you mean the crap that is churned out of Nickleodian, Disney Channel and Cartoon Network nowadays (aka American animation) compared to the glory days of the late 80's and 90's when we all rushed home from school, knowing that quality cartoons and shows were about to be aired.
Or the days when we would wake up extra early on Saturday mornings to catch all the kids shows for 3-4 hours on end?
Or you talking about something completely different?

I think animation still is very much alive in Europe and other parts of the world, only it doesn't get as much limelight or perhaps funding as America do, being the giants of the entertainment industry globally. It isn't simply limited to cell art, there's different kinds (I guess we're more famed for clay animation over here)

Is there an article or finding to support your claim, just curious as to where you're coming from before I add anything else.
Besides in addition, I suppose the internet has revolutionised the way we entertain ourselves as kids. Most are happy to play cheap ass flash games for hours on end or just stick with consoles, but I don't think TV holds as much power of us all as much as it did even just a decade ago.
Also as I've seen countless times, most are happy to jump onto crunchyroll and stream fansubs (without even realising it is fansubs) just to tune into naruto or bleach etc. We have more choice on what we wanna watch and where, compared to before, perhaps low viewer numbers are also influencing closing of studios and so on...

HayashiTakara

2008-08-24, 09:47

Yeah of course I mean the stuff that are out nowadays. 80's and 90's really were the glory days of american cartoons. And I had no idea europe made cartoon series.

No, no articles. Though I can probably find some. Also, you probably notice that Disney hasn't put out a animated movie in ages ( Pixar doesn't count ). Disney has pretty much made / making the move to doing 3d rather than 2d.

What I do know, is from former disney animators, like my past instructor as I mentioned.

escimo

2008-08-24, 09:49

It's a bit of both. I wouldn't call western animation dead. It's far from it. The focus has just shifted from 2D to 3D. And from series to full feature. There have been many quite excellent 3D animation films lately so in that sense I can't see this shift as a bad thing since most of the most recent 2D animations be that series of films have been total crap.

Job losses on the other hand can't be seen as a very positive thing.

HayashiTakara

2008-08-24, 10:00

Yeah, the job losses sucks... 2d for american animation is pretty much dead IMO, all the traditional animators here are forced to learn 3d if they want to continue their career as an animator. Many of them are already old too, and have difficulties learning the application.

While 2d in the east will probably be going strong for who knows how long.

I'm guessing we're to blame for this occurance? lol :heh:

Daughter!

2008-08-24, 10:03

I'm going to sound like a huge dick when I tell you I haven't watched a good western cartoon, or anime, in a long time. In America, most cartoons have turned to the computer-generated style you see a lot, which is ugly as hell and everyday is making real artists with real talent more and more obsolete. The only cartoon I won't loose sleep over is Spongebob.

The last animes I enjoyed were Azumanga Daioh and Lucky Star, probably because they're pretty similar. They were funny. I don't really understand a lot of Japanese humor but those two had me laughing. I also like Haruhi. I try out more serious anime and I just can't get into it. I hate anything where missing one episode means you won't know what's going on, that's anime's biggest problem. Sometimes it gets far too caught up in a plot too complex to hold itself up, to the point where it becomes absurd.

In short, I hate everything.

nadare

2008-08-24, 10:04

I still think 2D > 3D. Until 3D animations can make good human emotions like 2D can. When I say human emotion I meant facial animations.

I have a problem with current 3D animations as the characters look soul-less.

solomon

2008-08-24, 10:06

Ya'll had to suffer through the late 70s and 80s of "omigodthinkofthechildrenandallthecartoonviolence" ... it was a terrible time for action cartoons when naturally violent shows like GIJoe, Batman, Spiderman and such basically just faded out because they couldn't adapt the shows without looking stupide (hence --- Superfriends and characters the kids "could identify with" --- who were total losers rather than someone you'd like to fantasize being.

The other problem with many of those series even when they were still violent was that often they were *really* in-your-face 30 minute commercials. They would introduce 4 or 5 products every 10 seconds or so (GIJoe's Ultimate Tank Land Fortress!!! Holds 5 Joes and all their Accessory Gear!!!), utterly shoving any storytelling into about 5 seconds of the episode.

It really wasn't until the anime started seeping into the American landscape again in the 90s (nods to Pokemon and such) that things changed a bit for the better. The "thinkofthechildren" imagination-snuffers still keep things pretty much ruined though with "wtf" news items like the original Sesame Street season being "not recommended for children" recently (omigod, Cookie Monster *smokes* introducing Monsterpiece Theatre).

Alright, Vexx with the oldhead perspective.

Wait what was that about SESAME STREET being bad for kids? SS is a goddamned american institution! (and like others has been exported and replicated world wide).

As for the whole 2d vs. 3d thing, I look at it as classical instruments vs. electronic music instruments. Neither is better. What matters is the skill, style and content of the music. At heart I am pro-2d more then 3-d though.

American animation is big buisness and EVERYONE KNOWS that big buisness cuts corners to get money or keep costs low. Until execs arent sitting in on studio production sites giving their "creative input" stuff from big studios will generally be more bland then more free studios (Pixar is an exception)

To pick up on Ledgers point about judgemental practices and lazy parenting and over sensitivity, check this;

In the US especially most kids before the 2000s grew up with Looney Tunes on TV, a national animation institution for DECADES. I've seen many relatively uncut Bugs Bunnys for YEARS as a kid. I never wanted to shoot a gun in my brothers face. As a kid as young as 5, I knew that If you drop something heavy on someone, you can get really hurt. So I can't pull an anvil stunt like Wile E. Coyote.

Thing is while during the 70s, various groups pushed for cencoring of violent gags, in the 40s, 50s and 60s millions of kids watched Popeye, Bugs and Droopy get blown up, evicerated, sawed in half, beaten until daylight AND THEY WERE JUST FINE. (Vexx you can back me up here right?)

HayashiTakara

2008-08-24, 10:09

My biggest gripe I see in 3d, particularily in video games, is that they move too much when they talk... I mean seriously... who bops their head and makes constant hand gestures when talking?

I do know why they do it... but, it just feels wrong to me.

solomon

2008-08-24, 10:48

Well lesse, can't think of anything unique on the tube.

Chowder has a nice different design asthetic, other than that nothing to see.

John K. (ren and stimpy guy) is trying to make web toons (like em or not, his early ones were some of the best created in terms of animation skill level, primarily cause they are based off of ACTUAL drawings).

I mean Flash isn't evil, Foster's is done with a computer program but it's at least designed sensibly and dynamically.

How many flash toons quite honestly don't look like they lifted designs from a 6th graders scribbles on his Mead notebook? Flash can look good, but far too many stuff is done with TERRIBLE design. And if you don't have good design you loose all props cause it's impossible to replicate the dynamic expression of either skilled 2d or 3d animation in Flash.

Ending

2008-08-24, 11:44

Well lesse, can't think of anything unique on the tube.
Try 9 Nine. (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1jl41_9-nine-shane-acker-short-animation_creation) :D

Kinda sure it isn't american, but it's good enough to warrant a notion.

escimo

2008-08-24, 12:02

Try 9 Nine. (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1jl41_9-nine-shane-acker-short-animation_creation) :D

Kinda sure it isn't american, but it's good enough to warrant a notion.
"Made in UCLA animation workshop" would point towards it being American actually. But no matter where that's made. That was pretty darn good.

Quzor

2008-08-24, 12:18

As it stands, I'd argue that American animation has fallen off as my years have gone on. I remember watching so many cartoons as a young boy, and now many or most of those are off the air. Admittedly, some of the old shows I used to watch are still around, but they don't appeal to me any more because I'm not so young as I once was. This, too, could be cause for my lack of interest in the cartoons of today.

However I've noticed that, as some cartoons continue to fall off, others are cropping up with wonderful new approaches and executions to the idea of comedy. The Simpsons had a few years of backslide, but seems to be on the upshot following the release of the movie. Despite my lack of interest in Family Guy, American Dad makes me laugh on a fairly constant basis. And I still find great joy in an episode of Courage the Cowardly Dog or Dexter's Laboratory. And, when all else fails, fail safes like South Park, Futurama, and King of the Hill are always there to bring me out of a cartoon-y rut.

However, in the past couple of years, a cartoon has sprung up that, I feel, trumps all cartoons I saw as a child. It makes me laugh louder and longer than any other cartoon I have ever seen, and it is the epitome of greatness in the name of cartoons. "It" is Invader ZIM. If you have not seen it, I highly suggest it. And if you have seen it, I think you can agree with me, at least in part.

solomon

2008-08-24, 12:45

Invader Zim, is unique, fairly daring and entertaining. I like it and can see why others do.

It is not the epitome of greatness. I have yet to see an american cartoon on mainstream television in the last hmm decade at the very least that is worthy of your hyperbole or that of other Zim fans.

It's best factor was it's rather twisted, edgy nature (in terms of design, gags and story) and an individual sense of style which was so big in the 90s but dried up by the end of the decade in many kids cartoons.. I missed and liked that. But it does nothing in terms of story, design, animation and acting that is epoch making or top of the line or really revolutionary in any sense.

Royal_Devil

2008-08-24, 15:00

No, no articles. Though I can probably find some. Also, you probably notice that Disney hasn't put out a animated movie in ages ( Pixar doesn't count ). Disney has pretty much made / making the move to doing 3d rather than 2d.

Looking things up helps. Since you've apparently missed any news about The Princess and the Frog. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Frog) (note: I am not making any claims as to its quality, just that Lasseter and Clements are interested in going back to 2D and that this is Disney's first attempt back)

WanderingKnight

2008-08-24, 17:48

However, in the past couple of years, a cartoon has sprung up that, I feel, trumps all cartoons I saw as a child. It makes me laugh louder and longer than any other cartoon I have ever seen, and it is the epitome of greatness in the name of cartoons. "It" is Invader ZIM. If you have not seen it, I highly suggest it. And if you have seen it, I think you can agree with me, at least in part.

Zim was probably the only American cartoon I've enjoyed since Rocko's Modern Life (I LOVE that show--sadly, I could never take a liking to its creators' newer show, Camp Lazlo). Too bad not many Americans seemed to agree with me, since the show was axed midways towards the end of its first season, IIRC.

Hari Michiru

2008-08-24, 18:29

I personally prefer Anime over American animation. Not because I love everything about Japan, and Japan is a haven, etc etc.

American animation doesn't have that nice character design that Anime has, and I like to watch something with a continuing plot, than something episodic.

SeedFreedom

2008-08-24, 18:51

American animation is really going downhill as of lately. All of the new stuff has been heavily geared towards children. Those that aren't are seriously slipping in quality, like American dad and the new Simpsons. Even many children cartoons are taking a more japanized feel, for example Avatar, Teen Titans, Storm Hawks. I tried, and failed to watch invader zim, while my friends love it. However, we are starting to get more older anime introduced here with less censorship. For example, i dont think death note, a "cartoon" about a mass murderer with a notebook would have been broadcasted years ago.

Royal_Devil

2008-08-24, 18:55

American animation doesn't have that nice character design that Anime has.

The problem is, it seems whenever Western animators use a style a lot like something you'd see in a animee, they get accused of just ripping the style to make money off it. I've seen this all too often from people who wrote off Avatar. Of course, they also use other styles that look nothing like something you'd see in anime and the look of the characters drives away people with tastes like yours.

FLCL

2008-08-24, 19:12

Quzor

2008-08-24, 19:13

Zim was probably the only American cartoon I've enjoyed since Rocko's Modern Life (I LOVE that show--sadly, I could never take a liking to its creators' newer show, Camp Lazlo). Too bad not many Americans seemed to agree with me, since the show was axed midways towards the end of its first season, IIRC.Rocko's Modern Life is one of the many shows that I enjoyed as a youngster, that is no longer on television. Another significant one would be Ren and Stimpy.
The problem is, it seems whenever Western animators use a style a lot like something you'd see in a animee, they get accused of just ripping the style to make money off it. I've seen this all too often from people who wrote off Avatar. Of course, they also use other styles that look nothing like something you'd see in anime and the look of the characters drives away people with tastes like yours.I've noticed this as well. My friends, who enjoy anime, will watch an American cartoon with clear anime influence, and write it off with comments like "They're just ripping off of *insert name of show*'s style," or some such thing. To me, comments like that never made a lot of sense, especially when I consider that so many other new things which draw influence from previously existing material (books, music, movies, etc.) tend to be enjoyed by the fans of said previous material.

WanderingKnight

2008-08-24, 19:20

honestly only one thing makes the difference, and thats the character designs

japanese anime just has better designs, rather than fluid american designs, the plots are not that off, its just the overall mindset is different from american and japaese animation

one focuses on primarily kids, while the other is spread out, theyre are alot of "anime" that is akin to american stuff, but its not talked about or focused on, because this is the wrong demographic. you could take chiis adventure, dub it in english, and bingo, i hardly could tell the difference.

Well, there is a certain approach to storytelling that you don't usually find in Western media. It'd involve a complex sociological study to really flesh out the details, but if you put an effort you can notice clear contrasts between American and Japanese storytelling. On a very, very rough scale and with a Western viewpoint, Japanese stories tend to humanize antagonists on a level you don't usually see in American media. Of course, that is merely my ignorant, Western-based anecdotal appreciation--as I mentioned earlier, it would take a very serious sociological study to even attempt to grasp any sort of difference on the matter--but I'm sure it's there.

FLCL

2008-08-24, 19:22

Royal_Devil

2008-08-24, 19:38

To me, comments like that never made a lot of sense, especially when I consider that so many other new things which draw influence from previously existing material (books, music, movies, etc.) tend to be enjoyed by the fans of said previous material.

Hell, wasn't Osamu Tezuka inspired by Disney and other Western animation from back in the day? The big eyes we associate so much with anime were based off the likes of Bambi and Betty Boop, if I remember correctly. I don't see anyone accusing him of "ripping off" Disney.

Not that anyone should, I see nothing wrong it and with letting inspiration and influence come full circle like that, especially when it leads to quality works.

james0246

2008-08-24, 20:13

I've noticed this as well. My friends, who enjoy anime, will watch an American cartoon with clear anime influence, and write it off with comments like "They're just ripping off of *insert name of show*'s style," or some such thing. To me, comments like that never made a lot of sense, especially when I consider that so many other new things which draw influence from previously existing material (books, music, movies, etc.) tend to be enjoyed by the fans of said previous material.

I never really understood this, at least half of what is known as the anime "style" (primarily "exaggerated physical features such as large eyes, big hair and elongated limbs...") is derived from American and European animated cinema/TV (Snow White and other Disney titles were especially important as the basis of the anime "style" not to mention early cartoons such as Betty Boop (whose physical appearance Tezuka more or less copied to create the characters for many of his early manga and anime), and later Hannah & Barbara cartoons (especially Tom and Jerry) were extremely beneficial as well). So, an American show cannot really copy that much besides the various physical marks (nosebleeds, anger marks, face faults, etc) or cultural references (hot springs, etc).

That being said, I think that American cartoon shows (for television) have hit a low mark currently due to the fact that no one has figured out how to make a cheap 3-D/CG animated show. The few that have appeared in the past (ReBoot, Transformers: Beast Wars, etc) have all been fairly big shows (for their time and demographics) but very cost ineffective for their time slots. Once American producers create the technology to efficiently make cheap 3-D/CG animation (much the same as Hannah & Barbara did some 50 years ago), then there will be a huge surge of new American animation.

edit: Royal_Devil seems to have made some of the same points.

HiroInazuma

2008-08-24, 20:26

I was born during the middle of the 90s and saw a lot of those old shows like Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Monster Rancher, Rockos Modern Life, Ren and Stimpy, Tenchi, Dragonball/Z/GT Digimon, Batman, The Adams Family, Power Rangers, Kamen Rider, Shinzo etc...

And I loved those shows and the commercials I could actually tolerate then now they took of the classics like I live in England and Toonami used to actually be that where they show anime like One Piece, Tenchi, DBZ, Outlaw Star, Spawn, Cowboy Beebop but now they changed it to CN Too and took of all the anime you will not see anime on it anymore here instead it is superheros, grim adventures of billy and mandy (don't get me wrong I like Grim Adventures but that was what Cartoon Network and Boomerang was supposed to show).

They replaced Fox Kids my last Anime haven where I watched Digimon, Hamtaro, monster rancher, sailor moon (yes I watched sailor moon don't judge me) then they took that away from me and put in Jetix where they show the same old power rangers just with different powrs and megazords, then they put in those americanized cartoons but late at night they had some anime like Flint the time detective and Shinzo but then they took that away and the closest thing to anime was Ninja School and that disappeared as well.

I hate the new shows they show these days, they are boring and they show the same episode 50 times that week.

shelter

2008-08-24, 20:54

I think American animation - in general - has a lot of qualities which are perhaps unique to the culture in which it was fashioned, shaped & is eventually consumed in. Thinking back when I was a kid watching Disney, American animation has always caught my eye for its pace & action, and its complete-ness. There's almost a 99% chance of a happy conclusion, or at least one that leaves the viewers satisfied.

But in terms of the depth of characters, the artistic styles, the power of the story & the message in the storytelling, a decade worth of watching American cartoon can't really compare to the quiet beauty of some anime. American animation's biggest merit, seems to be immediate (if not passive) entertainment.

They are exceptions, of course. What got me thinking was this movie by the now defunct Fox Animation Studios called Titan A.E (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_A.E.), which is (at its best) a kind of halfway house between the traditional action of American animation & the visual power of anime.

Tri-ring

2008-08-24, 21:00

Well, there is a certain approach to storytelling that you don't usually find in Western media. It'd involve a complex sociological study to really flesh out the details, but if you put an effort you can notice clear contrasts between American and Japanese storytelling. On a very, very rough scale and with a Western viewpoint, Japanese stories tend to humanize antagonists on a level you don't usually see in American media. Of course, that is merely my ignorant, Western-based anecdotal appreciation--as I mentioned earlier, it would take a very serious sociological study to even attempt to grasp any sort of difference on the matter--but I'm sure it's there.

Although the US media is moving away like the recent Batman movie "the Black knight" I believe westerners especially the US people idolizes a didactic approach especially when dealing and/or related to kids.
Japanese society never embraced the complete good VS complete evil which is rooted within the Christian dogma. If you think about it, "All MAN ARE CREATED EQUAL" has only been practiced in the literal sense for only 50 years so it is pretty difficult to change something that had been preached for the last 2000 years.

Ironically I think it was even mentioned within the prementioned movie the Black Knight that a true hero can never have a black spot and therefore Batman is not a hero but a guardian of the people who will be hunted down when he fulfill his objective.
So as long as you measure good and/or evil in an absolute scale and not a relative scale, there will always be a difference in approach of creating a character, plot and finally storytelling.

Hari Michiru

2008-08-24, 21:29

The problem is, it seems whenever Western animators use a style a lot like something you'd see in a animee, they get accused of just ripping the style to make money off it. I've seen this all too often from people who wrote off Avatar. Of course, they also use other styles that look nothing like something you'd see in anime and the look of the characters drives away people with tastes like yours.

Lol, I'm not sure about other people, but I'm cool with Avatar. It's actually good compared to the rest of Western Cartoons.

I never really understood this, at least half of what is known as the anime "style" (primarily "exaggerated physical features such as large eyes, big hair and elongated limbs...") is derived from American and European animated cinema/TV (Snow White and other Disney titles were especially important as the basis of the anime "style" not to mention early cartoons such as Betty Boop (whose physical appearance Tezuka more or less copied to create the characters for many of his early manga and anime), and later Hannah & Barbara cartoons (especially Tom and Jerry) were extremely beneficial as well). So, an American show cannot really copy that much besides the various physical marks (nosebleeds, anger marks, face faults, etc) or cultural references (hot springs, etc).

That being said, I think that American cartoon shows (for television) have hit a low mark currently due to the fact that no one has figured out how to make a cheap 3-D/CG animated show. The few that have appeared in the past (ReBoot, Transformers: Beast Wars, etc) have all been fairly big shows (for their time and demographics) but very cost ineffective for their time slots. Once American producers create the technology to efficiently make cheap 3-D/CG animation (much the same as Hannah & Barbara did some 50 years ago), then there will be a huge surge of new American animation.

edit: Royal_Devil seems to have made some of the same points.

I don't know why, but 3-D always turns me off. It's just so...ugly (to be put in a bland way). They always have to move so much, like moving their arms or bopping their head every 5 seconds.

Royal_Devil

2008-08-24, 22:30

I don't know why, but 3-D always turns me off. It's just so...ugly (to be put in a bland way). They always have to move so much, like moving their arms or bopping their head every 5 seconds.

Maybe because it's realistic? In fact, after I read your post I actually looked and was surprised how many people actually moved their heads like that. :heh:

HayashiTakara

2008-08-24, 22:45

Looking things up helps. Since you've apparently missed any news about The Princess and the Frog. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Frog) (note: I am not making any claims as to its quality, just that Lasseter and Clements are interested in going back to 2D and that this is Disney's first attempt back)

You know its gonna fail harder than christian rock.

Anyway, I do agree that it has a lot to do with story telling. Anime generally have a cohesive story with character development, emotions, plot, etc... While american animation is generally just one big gag with no real point or purpose but for a cheap laugh. I'm not really into that, except for shows like futurama and family guy. Anime like Excel Saga, really turns me off as its basically just a more extreme version of looney tunes.

I've been watching anime for roughly 20 years now, but I still enjoy a good american cartoon here and there. Teen Titans being one of them. But, as a whole, its just so... blah?

mimi_girl

2008-08-24, 22:50

As I was growing up, I always like to watch WTTW11, nick, CN, Disney, and sometimes WCIU. They had really good cartoon shows and other cool stuff, but now, I don't watch much of those stuff anymore. Well I still watch Spongebob Squarepants, That's so Raven, The Rugrats, All That and etc. Oh when we use to have cable, I always watched Robot Chicken <-- so funny xD.

Freaking Disney channel has now some really stupid shows now and I think that most of them aren't funny or not my style anymore. Oh and of course, almost everyday now on WTTW11 kids, I watch Arthur because arthur is still funny and I look buster in a different view now xD

Kamui4356

2008-08-24, 23:22

I think a lot of the "They're just ripping off anime" comments come from the companies deliberatly mimicing the style to try to attract mainstream anime fans rather than the creators being strongly influenced by it and reflecting that influence in their own style in most instances.

Though I'm not sure I'd agree American 2d animation is dead. There are quite a few new shows. Of course most of them are unwatchable to me, though I wonder how I'd react to the shows I liked growing up if I saw them for the first time now. Was the old Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series really better than the new one or do I just remember it that way out of nostalga?

HayashiTakara

2008-08-24, 23:28

Its nostalgia definately... I loved TMNT back in the olden days... I rewatched some episodes a few months ago on dvd, and I was like.... "wow.. this was really bad", some things are best left in memory, lol.

Royal_Devil

2008-08-24, 23:39

You know its gonna fail harder than christian rock.

And how do you know that? And for all your talk about wanting 2D back you immediately write off the first try? With attitudes like that I can see why Disney sticks to 3D so much these days.

And the new TMNT is better than the old series if only because it's more like the ORIGINAL comic series. You know, where Shredder is a viable threat?

A lot of these remake series seem to be stuck on a seesaw.

Not many people like the style for Transformers Animated but the plots not involving human villains are generally better and the Decepticons are shown as an actual threat more often, complete with a battle cry "Transform and rise up!" as opposed to "Decepticons retreat!" :heh:

Spectacular Spiderman features the best fights in any version of the series and overall the plots are as good as they get with Spiderman outside of the comics (the inclusion of Gwen Stacy as the love interest also helps). But once again, many don't like the art style.

HayashiTakara

2008-08-24, 23:44

And how do you know that? And for all your talk about wanting 2D back you immediately write off the first try? With attitudes like that I can see why Disney sticks to 3D so much these days.

And the new TMNT is better than the old series if only because it's more like the ORIGINAL comic series. You know, where Shredder is a viable threat?

A lot of these remake series seem to be stuck on a seesaw.

Not many people like the style for Transformers Animated but the plots not involving human villains are generally better and the Decepticons are shown as an actual threat more often, complete with a battle cry "Transform and rise up!" as opposed to "Decepticons retreat!" :heh:

Spectacular Spiderman features the best fights in any version of the series and overall the plots are as good as they get with Spiderman outside of the comics (the inclusion of Gwen Stacy as the love interest also helps). But ones again, many don't like the art style.

The problem with disney is their mindset. Its constant rehash of Snow White and Cinderella. The whole Princess and Prince Charming story line is so 19th century. If they would invest their talents into making a really good story and characters, I'm all up for it.

The Fox and the Hound is my all time favorite Disney Movie. Maybe another one along the lines of this would catch my attention.

Edit: Oh, the new Transformers cartoons are animes.

Royal_Devil

2008-08-24, 23:54

If they would invest their talents into making a really good story and characters, I'm all up for it.

And if this has good characters and story despite using an old trope? Having cliches doesn't mean the characters can't be good. Besides, this isn't the old "fall-in-love-at-first-sight" thing as with most Disney movies. If you've seen the trailer, you'd see that Tiana is actually quite repulsed at the thought of kissing a frog, much to said frog's frustration. Sort of like Beauty and the Beast actually.

Then again, my favorite Disney movie is Fantasia, which had little plot at all.

Edit: Oh, the new Transformers cartoons are animes.

The Armada series are all Japanese. They had original Japanese voices and everything. They all sucked btw.

Transformers Animated is produced by CN and animated in Japan so I don't know how one classifies that. Episodes with human villains suck. When the Decepticons are the actual villains the episodes are quite good.

Though the best in terms of plot and characters is Beast Wars, which is all Canadian. In fact, the Japanese dub butchered the show.

Come to think of it, a lot of the 2D series Jetix show and a number CN shows are actually Canadian or European in origin. This isn't surprising when they come from France since manga is very prolific there.

solomon

2008-08-24, 23:56

Anime and American Cartoons isn't quite apples and oranges all the time by any means, but yea there are differences.

It's the way their respective industries/audiences developed that creates a huge impact on how it's thought of or consumed.

People will say that Naruto is heads and shoulders above american cartoons in terms of depth, and maturity.

If that's the case why is it's consumer base in japan based on grade schoolers. With few exceptions amongst mainstream youth in Japan; Anime still is generally seen as for kids or for hardcore nerds cause they don't offer mainstream audiences what they want.

Mai Hime, heres an example or Rahxephon. These are more mature than say Naruto and one piece but they are only consumed by hardcore fans, like how star trek is done today in the states.

Gotta be careful when we say anime is SOOOOOOOO much more "mature" then american cartoons, that's kinda subjective. Just cause naruto has a linear plot and blood and sexual innuendo make it more "mature" then say Batman the Animated Series.

On Disney, yea Disney isn't bad, it heralded innovation. However I agree that the Princess and the Frog seems essentially the same old stuff from disney. It breaks no new mold, Disney is a big part of the institution of Animation=kids stuff. It looks like it will only appeal to little girls/kids and parents who are looking for "safe, wholesome children/family entertainment" (BLEH!)

Royal_Devil

2008-08-25, 00:08

It breaks no new mold, Disney is a big part of the institution of Animation=kids stuff. It looks like it will only appeal to little girls/kids and parents who are looking for "safe, wholesome children/family entertainment" (BLEH!)

So have you never liked Disney films? If not, why do you like the ones you like?

And I never quite got what HT meant by "along those lines". What lines?

solomon

2008-08-25, 00:31

Well sure I like disney films. I can appreciate many of the ones done before Walt died even if they aren't the most exciting movie. Like Snow White, it's a technical marvel and an epoch making work, but on it's own I didn't find it TOO captivating as entertainment.

Snow White also lead to the cliche reliance on smarmy renditions of fairy tales or "princess stories", Snow WHite, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast.

If Disney followed the Hunchback of Notre Dame more to the letter it could have been revolutonary and a great movie, but if you've read the novel or even if you've actually read Grimms Fairy Tales you can see why Disney wouldn't do em when they earned their millions from not upsetting a social order that animation has to be the safe and non threatening form of media and when it had to make tons of merch dollers from the pockets of audiences expecting such media.

Some of these are better than others but due to many factors both great and small those became the norm and Disney rarely was as daring as other studios were in content and tone of his pictures.

Now here's where I get more subjective/opinionated

Now Fantasia is great, cause it's unique/daring unlike ANYTHING any major studio did at the time. Had that film been a huge sucess it could have opened the door to many more mold breaking films, but It was a huge money loser. So what did disney do? Go back to talking animals and fairy tales, told in an increasingly cliche matter and bland flavor.

I like some films that break from what I see as a preconcieved disney blandness. 101 dalmations is a great example, no fairies/princes/princesses. A setting, tone and cast of characters uniquely British, a unique villaness in Cruella de Vill, not to mention the inarguable technical mastery of artistry that is par for the course for Disney.

Also in terms of artistry it was individual as well, thanks to unique stylized modern designs by Bill Peet, Mark Davis and Walt Pergoy (sp?) that were different from the previously (VERY) naturalistic design of the pre-60s era.

Then you have Oliver and Company. In the context of disney history of the time unremarkable but another one that once again had a unique flavor that managed to have a noticable individualism that grabbed your attention while still maintaining the disney-happily ever after story formula. It's essentially the same feelings I had about 101 dalmations but this time with an 80s New York Flavor that had actual versimilatude, it was believable and authentic in terms of the story.

The emperors new groove was a wildly funny film that pulled off pop culture references and celebrity voices and slapstick without being forced and out of place. Primarily cause it didn't try to be a huge weepy psuedo drama like Pochahontas wanted to be, but had too many comic relief elements and pulled dramatic punches to be authentic. It was a comedy and that's it.

So my problem with disney can be summed up in what the historical concensus was.;While facilitaing a dynamic studio in terms of techinical and artistic skill. In terms of artistic CONTENT (like in plot and design to a certain degree) he was bland, timid and too unwillng to drastically explore radical new ideas, particularly in relation to plot.

In other words, Too often they're BLAAAANND like plain white rice cooked lukewarm.

Neki Ecko

2008-08-25, 01:34

Well, for me

I was born in the late 70's (damn, it sounds so old now) and I have a chance to look at alot of American Cartoons like

Thundercats
SilverHawks
Joyce and Wheel Warriors
Visonaries
alot of HB stuff including old school heros like Birdman, Galaxy Trio, Moby, and many others (I look at them on Boomrang, when I am at home)

even famous shows that actually sucks ass like
Mr. T
Rambo
WWF Westlers
Chuck Norris

Even through the 90's with Superman/Batman/Spiderman TAS, they were very good but then after that, American TV started to drop off badly because of alot of people was tired see different type of Power Rangers every year (even know that I like Original, Wild Force, SPD, and Dino Thunder) it was starting to get very old, very fast. Plus Eastern Animation was starting to take over the Airways after DBZ, Pokemon and Sailor Moon was bring alot of people to start to look at Anime alot.

Pop Quiz: Can you remember what Saturday line-up that FOX Kids had about 10 years ago(hint: PR abd Digi was one of the major headlines, there) and what do they have now?

Here is the biggest reason for me was because the context of storylines between Eastern Animation and Western Animation.

Irenicus

2008-08-25, 02:22

There's just one thing that really ruins the entire Cartoon Network block for me.

Scatology!

What's so fucking funny about fart jokes and disgusting shit? Ugh. It wasn't funny when Jonathan Swift did it and it isn't funny now. At least the Japanese version of "puerile" doesn't equate immediately to such shenanigans...well, ignoring the extreme ones at least, and certainly not every bloody cartoon in the damn channel.

Oh, and the retarded characters. Japan has its own version, equally annoying admittedly (did anyone ever got the urge to shoot Tomo of Azumanga Daioh? Really bad?), but at least there are other anime out there where I don't have to encounter that and there's something about cultural barriers that serve to reduce the impact of such epic failures, for me at least.

On the other hand, the more mature American cartoons are often tied in with the Western comic world, or at least the superhero part of it. And I'm not a fan of superheroes, so it isn't something I'll go looking for either. Justice League? Nah.

And then there's Disney...

...who alternates constantly between producing a masterpiece, or at least a good piece, once in a while; five horrible sequels for said piece, five more direct-to-video crappy movies, five criminally bad Disney Channel originals, before returning to creating another good piece again, if they actually ever bothered.

And I don't remember a Disney classic in recent memory. Not the ones that weren't made by Pixar at least.

raikage

2008-08-25, 10:46

Is it a good thing that western animation has pretty much "died"? Sure theres some crap being churned up now and then, like Ben 10 and what not. But as a whole, from last I remember Saturday morning cartoons was like 90% anime. And Disney had to close down all their 2D animation studios as they were getting their butt stomped by eastern animation. Resulting in massive job loss.

My former animation teacher was a Disney employee who animated Mulan and other such movies.

Do you think this is a good thing, or a bad thing?

Funny that you say that, when I finished all of Avatar just last night.

I don't really keep up with cartoons or anime anymore, but between that (which is still recent), the DC animated universe, Aqua Teen is still being made, I think, South Park from what I hear is bitingly satirical where it used to just be about kids swearing, Simpsons/Family Guy/American Dad/King of the Hill in primetime -- American animation is pretty far from dead.

HiroInazuma

2008-08-25, 11:47

To me Family Guy is losing it's funny the seasons before the current one seemed much better same with the simpsons but alas when someone grew up with something old it is hard to accept the new, except Pokemon shows everyone can accept that cos for some reason it is still good! And the only show that I have accepted right now is Robotboy, Storm Hawks, Fosters, Grim Adventures and Codename: Kids Next Door, the rest are stupid like the Boom Crew is just like a space version of the proud family and it is whickedy whickedy whack!

solomon

2008-08-25, 14:24

In relation to Nicky Eckos Fox Kids question;

I can't remember 10 years ago but I remember a a broad swatch of 90s shows.

Tiny toons
Bobby's World
Animaniacs
Spider Man
X men
Batman; TAS
Eek Stravaganza
Taz Mania

These are their biggest hits (and im my opnion best shows) that ran from early to mid 90s.

After that (by 96-97) I think Kids WB really took the mantle of creating and showing the best cartoons on saturday morning. (not including cable)

HayashiTakara

2008-08-25, 19:15

klowny

2008-08-25, 19:54

i loved the old days with Freakaziod, Hey Arnold, animaniacs and Tiny toon adventures. Also watching looney toons, nowadays they can't even come up with a good TV shows these days darn censors...

mimi_girl

2008-08-25, 20:55

^ Hey Arnold is a good choice for great nick shows on TV =D. Kinda teach me about how to like my sisters no matter where they are (in one episode).Spongebob is still awsome! It's also a great show to get some laugher once in a while and being goofy all day. Other good shows are and still:

Doug
Rosko's Modern life
Ren and Stimpy <-- Funny, and the great HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY thing was a big success!!!
Amanda Show (xD MAHA)
Rugrats
The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! <-- Really kidish, but I thought it was funny though it came out before I was born.

And so much more....

Could name them all day, but whatever, I just love funny cartoons ^^. Some of the cartoons out today like Family Guy and some other animated shows are too random and not so funny in my opinion. Even the "mature" jokes I get (of course since I'm only 15 going on 16 around Xmas) are that funny and not cool. Other than that, I pretty much like PG or PG 13 animations. South Park is a whole different kind of funny that I like 8D

Strahan

2008-08-25, 21:16

I liked American animation when I was a kid. GI Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, Tale Spin, Duck Tales, Centurions, Pirates of Dark Water, TMNT, Smurfs, MASK, Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors, He-Man, uhhh that's about all I remember hehe.

Nowadays, IMO, our animation stinks. My girlfriend watches Nickelodeon / Cartoon Network all the time. Most of the stuff I see when I'm bored enough to sit there and watch TV with her is so horribly vapid I can't take it for more than 5 minutes. The stories are weak as hell and the whole tone is very dumbed down. Granted, 80s cartoons weren't exactly award winning either but the stories were alot more interesting and actually had a plot. I thought maybe I'm just putting them on a pedestal thanks to my memories so I went and obtained eps of GI Joe, Thundercats and Smurfs. GI Joe is still as cool as I remember, except for the fact that in all the freaking storms of laserfire NOBODY ever gets so much as a SCRATCH. Everyone always manages to jump out of their tanks in time lol. Then there are smurfs.. gawd I didn't remember then saying "smurf" so darned much. That's annoying as hell hehe.

So anyway.. I think I'll pass on American animation. Well.. with the exception of Family Guy. That is the one amusing exception.