[Manga] Claymore Chapter 76 Discussion [Archive]

Flar

2007-12-31, 05:04

Who expected that whole regeneration thing from Agatha huh?*Raise hand*
An AB would not have an appendage that fragile and exposed if it wasn't able to regenerate or protect it. Plus she already allowed spears to pierce it without damage, so...
Nice style though, way more refined than anyone else, Prisc included.

Moving on... Clarice isn't stupid, she's just overly cautious, zealous and doesn't give a flying fuck about Rabona. She thinks even by allying with Galatea they stand little chance against Agatha, so it's better to ally with Agatha, kill Galatea then get the hell out of the city. Good tactics, since she gets rid of both a traitor and a city opposing the org without difficulty, and then could request Alicia support to get rid of the Agatha nuisance. I'll say it again, it's like a mafia operation: Rabona wasn't "insured" by the org, so bad things happen to it... too bad.

Of course Agatha is fucking it up by damaging Miata, and Clarice is probably not badass enough to understand and accept all the consequences of her actions and let humans get slaughtered under her eyes. That can only end with Miata either awakening, running away or turning on Agatha, as things stand, if noone else appears.

Anyway... I think someone else will come. Galatea said they had 50% chance of killing Agatha when both her and Miata were at full strength. Now that both of them have been damaged badly, their chances have shrunk accordingly. That's the theme of the chapter, fighting even without hope of victory. Without anyone coming to the rescue, barring some miracle, like Miata & Clarice turning on Agatha and Galatea sacrificing herself, they are toast, Galatea first, then Miata then the city. If noone else comes, Clarice better have a huge role later on because otherwise these chapters will never be relevant to the main story.

wnmnkh

2007-12-31, 05:05

It will not NOT be released in March. Next chapter will be released in 2/4. It is just called 'March' issue..(so do other Japanese/Korean manga magazines that they usually call the issue as one month ahead.... so like August issue released in July, December issue in November.....)

So there is no delay.

Fate_Archer

2007-12-31, 05:21

I'm puzzled to how Galatea couldn't detect Agatha hurting Miata. She only realized after Miata's attacks became slower and less powerfull.
Seems that Agatha is a lot stronger than what we previously thought.
And even though Miata knew it was Agatha who was harming her, she still continued to attack only Galatea. This stubborn, or rather illogical resolution reminds me when she chew the bitter supressant. She didn't need to, she could just have swallowed it, but forcefully, she chewed the supressant pill.
She doesn't care about what happens to her, as long as she is doing what her mother had asked her to do.

Well, story-wise nothing really important happened in this chapter aside from discovering Galatea's true reasons for protecting Rabona and emphasizing the determination of the brave soldiers from Rabona's city.
But I really enjoyed this chapter, seeing Galatea blind and every time more harmed, bravely fight even though her chances are close to zero for simple but very strong reasons, while a bit painful for my fanboy side, made me feel proud for having her as my favorite character.
The rainny scenario also gave a new atmosphere to this fight, the situation is becoming every time more tough and difficult.

Though it happens many times, the pace of Claymore chapters doesn't have to be so fast and straight, sometimes it may happen that a chapter will actually emphasize, support and continue the previous situation, some events aren't only key scenes of a perfect schedule of scenes that will guide to a greater story development.
And to complement, though a bit (totally) painful, next issue apparently will be released only in march.
So we'll have 1 month of delay, giving Yagi plenty time to make a very detailed and if needed, fast pacing chapter. Maybe, like 1st chapter, it will (hopefully) have about 50 or 60 pages.

And I'm really impressed with the Rabona's soldiers. Those guys, on their contexts, even knowing that they'll die if they continue to charge against Agatha, they still continue to do so.
Unlike most cowards around, and not having any other means to fight, they will continue to fight for their city's and their people's sake.

Glory to Galatea, Rabona and their soldiers!!!

Edit to wnmnkh's post:

Hmmm... damm. :(
Well, it seems that my wish of a 50-60 pages issue now was gone. :p

Anima

2007-12-31, 06:22

Eh. This issue could've been added to the previous one. Nothing major.

@Flar: I think Clarice isn't as smart as you described! she is working on instinct IMO. Killing a Claymore in theory is easier than killing an Awakened Being or she was simply overwhelmed by Agatha's size.

But now that Agatha told about her weak point, I see it possible that she might be threatened by Rabona's soliders since they were able to cut her head off. Alas, Galatea can't regenerate as fast as Deneve or she would recover fast. I am no longer sure if she would survive or not.

Miata's awakening seems very possible at this point which will probably allow the fab 7 to popup from no where to save the day but if that happens, I am sure it will be well justified. I have faith in Norihiro Yagi :)

killer3000ad

2007-12-31, 07:23

Okies, Clarice's stupidity is really beginning to reach the point of.. well... really freaking stupid. It's not even remotely imaginable. She doesn't seem to care about taking out the AO and is only concerned with reporting "MISSION COMPLETE" to the Org. Did she even stop to think about what Agatha will do next if Miata kills Galatea. She hasn't even tried taking on the AO and has already forgone any chances of killing Agatha. She needs to lose her head, like right now. Those brave Rabona grunts are eating it in front of her and she's just standing there observing that. Nevermind that Galatea is getting more holes in her outfit.:frustrated::frustrated:

Higasino Isley

2007-12-31, 08:19

Okies, Clarice's stupidity is really beginning to reach the point of.. well... really freaking stupid. She doesn't seem to care about taking out the AO and is only concerned with reporting "MISSION COMPLETE" to the Org. Did she even stop to think about what Agatha will do next if Miata kills Galatea. She hasn't even tried taking on the AO and has already forgone any chances of killing Agatha. She needs to lose her head, like right now. Those brave Rabona grunts are eating it in front of her and she's just standing there observing that. Nevermind that Galatea is getting more holes in her outfit.:frustrated::frustrated:

Well,Clarice isn't stupid,but too naive and unexperienced warrior.Her only goal is complete the mission,and to defends Miata from Agatha,because of she thinks Miata hasn't got chance against an dreadfully powerful Awakened Beings.By the way,you're right,she doesn't think about what Agatha will do after that.
And about Rabona grunts!They're not brave,but stupid so much.They're such adorable to make me laugh.Sorry.

evil_kenshin

2007-12-31, 08:22

Well,Clarice isn't stupid,but too naive and unexperienced warrior.Her only goal is complete the mission,and to defends Miata from Agatha,because of she thinks Miata hasn't got chance against an dreadfully powerful Awakened Beings.By the way,you're right,she doesn't think about what Agatha will do after that.
And about Rabona grunts!They're not brave,but stupid so much.They're such adorable to make me laugh.Sorry.

i wouldn't say thats fair enough, their trying to defend their city

when you have one awakened being, and 2 claymores only interesting in offing another claymore , but not defending the city (so effectively 3 vs 1 even though Agatha is harming Miata) its their only option

they are brave even though they have little hope of survival , well atleast Sid & Galk are not sure about the others

Gooral

2007-12-31, 08:29

Moving on... Clarice isn't stupid, she's just overly cautious, zealous and doesn't give a flying fuck about Rabona. She thinks even by allying with Galatea they stand little chance against Agatha, so it's better to ally with Agatha, kill Galatea then get the hell out of the city. Good tactics, since she gets rid of both a traitor and a city opposing the org without difficulty, and then could request Alicia support to get rid of the Agatha nuisance. I'll say it again, it's like a mafia operation: Rabona wasn't "insured" by the org, so bad things happen to it... too bad.

To me it looks like she's stupid. Even though she sees that they don't stand a chance against Agatha, she lets Miata exhaust herself and waste energy on Galatea. Ok, let's assume she would succeed and kill Galatea, what chances would be that they could escape from Agatha when Miata would be extremely weakened ? If she only cared about accomplishing her goal then why not get into action and increase chances of killing Galatea. Having 3 opponents, even if one of them would be just a decoy wouldn't be that bad. So again, she's incapable of thinking by herself (read: she's stupid). I bet that the Org suggested to her that Galatea might be blind.
It's better to ally with Agatha ? Ally ? If she really thought like that I would lose all remaining respect I have for her. All she could do was to use Agatha to kill Galatea, instead Agatha used Miata and she did nothing to change this. Requesting Alicia ? Do You really think the org would waste #1 just because Clarice said so (especially when You've just written that they're like mafia) ? Also, until Alicia would know about it Agatha would be long gone.

BaalChaamon

2007-12-31, 09:36

Clarice is getting on my nerves and im starting to wish someone would just chop her head off...nevermind.

Seeing my poor Lady getting stabbed left right and centre hurts my fanboy-heart greatly but her noble actions in the face of death and marginally slim chances of success really shine through in this chapter. Her character development has taken her to new heights, outlining the strong altruistic streak in her which makes an imminent death less (?) likely if such a rule applies to the Claymore-universe.

This chapter is simply used as a staging platform for a greater turn of events in the following one.The moral highgrounds of both Galatea and the city guards are explored and presented as a contrast to the Org. business approach, represented by the zealously naive and indoctrinated Clarice who should, ideally, be affected by this this display of courage and altruism and spark a change of heart in the latter. I believe that Miata's injuries act as visible, physical manifestations of the failed approach of the Org./Clarice and simply speed up the momentum created by Galatea and the guards by directly affecting Clarice on a very personal level.

khryoleoz

2007-12-31, 09:56

We can't expect all Claymores to show forms of courage the way Teresa and Galatea do. These two are made special by what they do and how they respond to dire circumstances. I think Clarice is doing that which is very human, showing concern for self-preservation. It's Maita who continues to be frustrating by being showing little more personality than a dog. I'm glad she's taking a beating, but it doesn't bode well for Galatea.

Galatea on the other hand shows herself to be a remarkable character. Her reasons were nothing profound, but she had resolutely decided in protecting Rabona before she even lived there. It's that resolution that brought her to the city. Cool stuff. I do agree that it's inconsistent that Galatea would be surprised that Agatha has been hurting Maita. She should be able to sense this. I bet you Teresa would have known, because her sensing is still better. :p

BTW, I really liked how Galatea used the QuickSword and DrillSword on Maita. It's too bad she couldn't see that attack coming from Agatha which pierced her. :p

BaalChaamon

2007-12-31, 10:06

Siegzon Caritas

2007-12-31, 10:11

I'm astounded, but I geuss I shouldn't be. Clarrisse is described as inexperienced, naive and stupid. Here's my adjective: EVIL Clarrisse is a villain most foul! Blood red Agatha wasn't just ripping humans apart in this chapter; she's been doing it in the last chapter, too., literally bathing in their blood. They are dying right now, right before her eyes.

And even though she's weak her reaction time is still faster, much faster than humans and she just let it go on and on and on while rationalizing for herself. Hitler rationalized for himself.

But I geuss we give Clarrise a pass because she's Kawaiii and insecure. BTW, Clarrise's not stupid. She's quite manipulative, knew quite well how to play the role of mother.

@Flar Mafia isn't quite right; mafia analogy falls down because Blood red agatha is doing more random and massive slaughter than the mob or even gangs do. This is more akin to Idi Amin with Clarrise and the org being enablers, Clarrise even more so.
@Gooral Yeah you're spot on with your tactical analysis. Clarrise is not nearly as clever as she thinks. And to my point being stupid is certainly no impediment to being a low down dirty rat.

Clarisse not evil? Hmmm,..
1. She's witnessing one of the most monstrous crimes against humanity in progress. People being ripped apart by a possible abyssal with perhaps no end in sight.
2. She has (had?) the means to attempt to stop it with a reasonable chance of success.
3. She put her own desires first, knowing full well there was no one, NO ONE else who had a chance of stopping the slaughter.
4. It takes no outstanding courage on Clariise's part. She didn't have to get involved personally, only to point Miata at Agatha. No, she made a cold calculation, no heroism was needed for her to do the right thing.

The author is brilliant, he did not put Clarrise in a crucial role to witness a crucial event and gave her the levers consciously to change that event for no purpose This is an incredibly powerful moral statement being made here given the history iof humanity in general. All backdropped by the holy sacrifice of these noble totally rocking Rabona soldiers! And the totally so completely loving sacrifice of awesome Galatea! The author even gives Miata these shining examples but she refuses to see their heroism, still seeing the reality as tactics on a board and not real people.

But hey, she's kawaii and has big eyes, let's give her a pass. Thought experiment: Don't replace any of the dialogue or actions in chapter 75 and 76 but replace Clariise's picture with Rubel. Clar is Rubel in drag.

The Nurenberg defense is no defense! They hanged those people for standing by and watching the Holocaust.

I hope Yuma shows up and Yumapunches the *&%% out of her!!!!!

*******************
What was the damage Agatha inflicted? Were those holes in Miata?
Galatea must see no hope, is there a chance she feels someone coming?
Is it possible Agatha is an abyssal? or just about Duph/Rigardo level? She sure has an abyssal feel about her.

Unbeleivably cool episode. Cannot wait to see what happens!

Panzerklein

2007-12-31, 11:03

Well,Clarice isn't stupid,but too naive and unexperienced warrior.Her only goal is complete the mission,and to defends Miata from Agatha,because of she thinks Miata hasn't got chance against an dreadfully powerful Awakened Beings.By the way,you're right,she doesn't think about what Agatha will do after that.
And about Rabona grunts!They're not brave,but stupid so much.They're such adorable to make me laugh.Sorry.

Stupid!? When the soldier try to protect their home land from powerful enemy, they are stupid. Put your body to the similiar situation, you are a soldier with some grenades, an enemy tank is front of you and your family is behind you. What should you do, try to destroy that tank or throw everything, run for you own life and dont care how about your family?

The Rabona Soldiers have no choice when the claymores can't help them, they try their best to protect their city and families.

Anima

2007-12-31, 11:06

Is it possible Agatha is an abyssal? or just about Duph/Rigardo level? She sure has an abyssal feel about her.
I really don't think she is abyssal. Not even near. Her head was cut off by normal human beings. Plus Galatea stated that with Miata's help, the chances of winning are 50/50 while in her encounter with Riful she knew she can't do anything about that fight even with Jean and Clare. Of course Miata qualifies for a higher rank and if you consider that Galatea's power increased in that long 7 years period it might make a difference but still I think she isn't abyssal.

And if we consider that all the abyssal ones are all former #1 claymores, it makes Agatha's chances of being abyssal yet slimmer. I think she is in league with Rigardo and Dauf.

BaalChaamon

2007-12-31, 11:27

I really don't think she is abyssal. Not even near. Her head was cut off by normal human beings. Plus Galatea stated that with Miata's help, the chances of winning are 50/50 while in her encounter with Riful she knew she can't do anything about that fight even with Jean and Clare. Of course Miata qualifies for a higher rank and if you consider that Galatea's power increased in that long 7 years period it might make a difference but still I think she isn't abyssal.

And if we consider that all the abyssal ones are all former #1 claymores, it makes Agatha's chances of being abyssal yet slimmer. I think she is in league with Rigardo and Dauf.

Out of all AB and AOs we have seen so far she wins the prize for most attractive monster...still very disturbing though :uhoh:

mosmos

2007-12-31, 12:04

Galatea is trying to protect the city . Leave her alone!

Aagatha.... Please just kill off Miata and Clarice...

Summoning the 7 princess.... We have an emergency here. ....

Squawks

2007-12-31, 12:10

Claymore_Obsessed

2007-12-31, 12:15

But hey, she's kawaii and has big eyes, let's give her a pass. Thought experiment: Don't replace any of the dialogue or actions in chapter 75 and 76 but replace Clariise's picture with Rubel. Clar is Rubel in drag.

You see, I'd say that what Clarice did really sucks.
But if it were Rubel, I'd understand. He's not a fellow Claymore warrior, he's a boss and he's badass too,so it's somewhat understandable that he's cynical towards Claymores and humans.
But Clarice is a Claymore, and a weak one, she should feel close if not to Galatea (she's a fellow Claymore but also her enemy) but at least to Rabona people... she was human too, and as of now, she's not that powerful to despise humans that much...

Yamazaki would say to Clarice: "Annoying! Annoying! Annoying! You're just so bleeding annoying!" and I bet he wouldn't be the only one :heh:

I hope Yuma shows up and Yumapunches the *&%% out of her!!!!!

Yeah, just what she deserves! I'd add a Helenpiledriver for good measure ^^

Rhyel

2007-12-31, 12:35

Good chapter, but something is missing. Maybe no new event, maybe no surprise. Ha, of course, this chapter no have dual page art. :heh:

Anh_Minh

2007-12-31, 13:10

Even given that Clarice doesn't have what it takes to turn on Agatha (Ethics? Courage?), she should have just pulled back as soon as Agatha appeared and let her do the work of killing Galatea. What did she expect? That Agatha would be nice and not interfere?

Negativedark

2007-12-31, 14:56

Clarice is panicing. She's really not experienced enougth for this situation. Kinda like a officer who's right out of officers school going on what was supposed to be a simple mission, and suddenly he finds everything going to hell. Clarice is cracking up, and doesn't really know what to do. Remember it seems to take a while before Claymores begin to really mistrust the organization. Right now Clarice doesn't know how to dissobey orders. She's been thrown in the deep end and is panicking. We're outside the situation so we can calmly and critically anylize things. We're not panicing so to us it's obvious the first priority is to kill Agatha. They can go after Galetea later.

Anima

2007-12-31, 15:20

It doesn't really need that much of intelligence to grasp the danger she is currently facing. If Miata could kill Galatea, given the brutality of Agatha demonstrated infront of her eyes should make her realize that she wont let her go away. If Miata got killed, the whole city is toast. All she needs is a functioning brain which she seems to lack.

Indeed she is thrown in a shit situation but come on, some common sense?! I guess that's where born-with-talents will shine. :)

whitepearl

2007-12-31, 15:24

Crazy turn of events...and Clarice is still useless :heh

I wonder if more special guests will come in Chapter 77...

Fenrir_valindri

2007-12-31, 15:39

This chapter was noticeably shorter then past chapters, by 4-5 pages, so it felt immensely short to me.

I can't say I'm too surprised that Clarice is still acting the fool, she is likely even more inexperienced then the Rabona soldiers as far as real combat goes.

She is not even supposed to be in charge (#47), has little experience, and unlike many previous characters, has little reason to mistrust the Organization and its practices. (although that is rapidly changing)

What did surprise me however, is the concern that Clarice has shown for Miata, I honestly thought that Clarice's fear had kept her from caring too much about the little homing missile's fate.

Miata shows a surprising amount of restraint in not attacking Agatha, despite being injured, she has alot more control over herself then people give her credit for, shame she is over reliant on mama's orders.

Although Agatha's sadistic nature has quite possibly screwed herself, in injuring Miata she has taken away Clarice's only justification for ignoring her.

Rabona's soldiers once again show what they are made off, glad to see we have humans who can show those hybrids and Yoma what we are made of. :D

As for Galatea not noticing Miata's wounds earlier, do you really think that was high up on her "priority" list at the time? She has her attention split avoiding both Miata and Agatha's attacks, which requires her to focus more on the offensive nature of her opponents, rather then there health.

It is not too surprising she did not notice it earlier.

Anima

2007-12-31, 15:56

As for Galatea not noticing Miata's wounds earlier, do you really think that was high up on her "priority" list at the time? She has her attention split avoiding both Miata and Agatha's attacks, which requires her to focus more on the offensive nature of her opponents, rather then there health.
If she was paying attention to Agatha's moves, Galatea is ought to sense some unfriendly swinging going somewhere. I mean she isn't using normal sight, she is sensing yoki so her "vision" field is much more wider. I think that was an inconsistency but I will let it slide :p

Off topic: I've made an Agatha & Galatea avatars from this issue and posted them in the avatar thread.

Anh_Minh

2007-12-31, 15:58

I thought even Miata hadn't understood she was being attacked. Which would be weird, considering her senses.

khryoleoz

2007-12-31, 16:01

Miata shows a surprising amount of restraint in not attacking Agatha, despite being injured, she has alot more control over herself then people give her credit for, shame she is over reliant on mama's orders.
I don't see why that is a surprise. She acts the part of the dog ever since she met Clarice.

As for Galatea not noticing Miata's wounds earlier, do you really think that was high up on her "priority" list at the time? She has her attention split avoiding both Miata and Agatha's attacks, which requires her to focus more on the offensive nature of her opponents, rather then there health

It is not too surprising she did not notice it earlier.
With the level of detail with which she can sense yoki activity from afar, I expected her to sense things that are near. Even she was too occupied playing badminton with Maita in an enclosed space, she should still be able to smell someone fart in that space.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-12-31, 16:05

I don't see why that is a surprise. She acts the part of the dog ever since she met Clarice.

Its a surprise since people expect her to go berserk at the drop of a hat, people already think she will go over her limits or do something else completely out of control, but she is being so obedient it is kind of freaky.

With the level of detail with which she can sense yoki activity from afar, I expected her to sense things that are near. Even she was too occupied playing badminton with Maita in an enclosed space, she should still be able to smell someone fart in that space.

Just because she is capable of doing so does not mean that it is easy. When you are focusing on something other things become unclear, it is the reason fighting multiple opponents is so taxing.

khryoleoz

2007-12-31, 16:08

Its a surprise since people expect her to go berserk at the drop of a hat, people already think she will go over her limits or do something else completely out of control, but she is being so obedient it is kind of freaky.
But she is going berserk, just only on Galatea.

Just because she is capable of doing so does not mean that her attention is focused that way, if your focusing on something, other things become clear, it is the reason fighting multiple opponents is so taxing.
I understand that. It's a clear indication that her senses had its limits. So that puts to rest the discussion that her senses are better than Teresa's. Teresa didn't have problems fighting multiple opponents also.

Valduran

2007-12-31, 16:25

If she is single-mindedly following orders and focusing on Galatea I'm not sure if that qualifies as berserk >.>

But I'm starting to think Clarice is doing a horrible job of filling the shoes of the previous number 47, she had better redeem herself soon! :frustrated:

Would be kinda nice if we got something more than a few pages of combat after a month of waiting though :(

Fenrir_valindri

2007-12-31, 16:29

But she is going berserk, just only on Galatea.

Its not really berserk if she is focused on a single target, someone who is berserk would lash out at anyone attempting to injure them.

I understand that. It's a clear indication that her senses had its limits. So that puts to rest the discussion that her senses are better than Teresa's. Teresa didn't have problems fighting multiple opponents also.

Teresa was also much more powerful then Galatea, and possibly more experienced, Teresa's senses were also overwhelmed by fighting a single opponent. Galatea is fighting two opponents who have a very large amount of Yoki, so I can't say I'm surprised she did not notice the small injuries that Miata had been accumulating.

stringer13

2007-12-31, 16:31

stringer13

2007-12-31, 16:40

Hmm, I keep thinking that Agatha might be Riful's sister or something. she was a number 2, Riful a number 1, kind of the same Awakened form, tentacles and all. Weird healing ability and both have fought against Galatea, maybe she's helping Riful. I dunno.

Doubt it. Riful is desperate to get a claymore who is good at sensing and Agatha is trying to kill Galatea. Riful said that she would really like Galatea to be her ally when she met Clare and it seems that Agatha is trying to kill Galatea.

Bonta Kun

2007-12-31, 17:17

I hope Yuma shows up and Yumapunches the *&%% out of her!!!!!

Yeah, just what she deserves! I'd add a Helenpiledriver for good measure ^^

How come when I read this I really really want to see this happen?!:eyebrow::heh:

Well certainly a nice little read on New Years Eve, I do get the feeling that Clarice will come to her senses and do whats right. That is to go into Super Sayian 3 and kick some butt!:D only joking I figure she can only go SS1.......ah ok enough of the SS stuff.
What I'm really interested in atm is why Galatea wants to protect the city and peeps so much. It does seem like a rather odd character change from before, I never really pictured her as the "protector of the innocent!" type:D

Negativedark

2007-12-31, 17:19

Maitia is a messed up child. She can't really do too good a job in terms of making judgment calls. In fact she's going to be worse at it than any normal girl her age, because of her mental state. So she trys to do what her mother tells her, and make momma happy. The last she knew she was supposed to kille Galetea. Nothing was said about Agatha. It's like when a small child doesn't do something or does something that to an adult was obvious. They were operating on what they were told, and were unable to judge correctly on what to do. This really makes things bad for Rabona. I also love Claris naivety. Just hope that Agatha will let them leave after they kill Galetea? Heck even if that happens, by the time the org can send anyone else Agatha could very easily have destoryed the city. Assuming the org even decides to send anyone. I can see them deciding they never liked Rabona that much anyways and just letting the town be destoryed.

Negativedark

2007-12-31, 17:23

How come when I read this I really really want to see this happen?!:eyebrow::heh:

Well certainly a nice little read on New Years Eve, I do get the feeling that Clarice will come to her senses and do whats right. That is to go into Super Sayian 3 and kick some butt!:D only joking I figure she can only go SS1.......ah ok enough of the SS stuff.
What I'm really interested in atm is why Galatea wants to protect the city and peeps so much. It does seem like a rather odd character change from before, I never really pictured her as the "protector of the innocent!" type:D

Also a Deneve lariet.

As for why Galetea has gone to be a "protector of the innocent!" type, remember she has been living in that city for several years. What's more she's been taking care of the orphens. Galetea has developed feelings for people in Rabona, and definitly seems to want to protect the orphens.

mosmos

2007-12-31, 17:58

evil_kenshin

2007-12-31, 18:16

Hey !! That's a possibility.

true + this is happening in the west (Riful's territory), im half surprised if she's not that Riful hasn't forcefully tried to recruit Agatha especially since she's looking for strong people to work with her

Bikerider

2007-12-31, 18:28

WHERE'S CLARE !!!?? *grumbles*

khryoleoz

2007-12-31, 18:55

Its not really berserk if she is focused on a single target, someone who is berserk would lash out at anyone attempting to injure them.
Still, I think your surprise is backwards. Maita has never gone berserk so as to attack just anyone and everyone who happened to be present, which would have included Clarice if Maita were to go berserk as you describe. She's always done things within the limits of her orders, just like a dog.

Teresa was also much more powerful then Galatea, and possibly more experienced, Teresa's senses were also overwhelmed by fighting a single opponent. Galatea is fighting two opponents who have a very large amount of Yoki, so I can't say I'm surprised she did not notice the small injuries that Miata had been accumulating.
Like I said, I understand that Galatea was distracted. But after you went on a relentless defense about how Galatea's senses surpassed even Teresa's, I'm surprised that you're not surprised at the inconsistency in the writing that made Galatea unaware of what was happening to Maita, especially after Galatea said a chapter or two ago that she can read yoki better than she ever could before which was already very good. In addition, let's not put Priscilla in the same yoki class as Maita or Agatha. She's got more yoki than the both of them combined, and this is what disrupted Teresa's yoki reading of Priscilla, not because she had her hands full with one person. Gotta look at things this way instead. Teresa successfully fought off one whose yoki she couldn't read because it was so well hidden at the same time she fought one who was brutishly strong, another who was ridiculously agile, and the master of QuickSword. Against a former #2 AB who wasn't even seriously attacking Galatea and Maita, I was expecting that Galatea's sensing would have kept her appraised of the yoki activity that was occurring however minute they were. Was I wrong or am I being unreasonable to have expected that?

Anh_Minh

2007-12-31, 18:57

Yeah. Besides, it's not like Galatea didn't have reasons to keep track of what Agatha was doing. And she wasn't so distracted she didn't see what the guards were doing, either.

Fenrir_valindri

2007-12-31, 19:50

Still, I think your surprise is backwards. Maita has never gone berserk so as to attack just anyone and everyone who happened to be present, which would have included Clarice if Maita were to go berserk as you describe. She's always done things within the limits of her orders, just like a dog.

But people seem to think she will go berserk at the slightest provocation, and yet despite being injured to that extent, she has stayed as loyal as a dog, as you say.

I did not doubt that she would stick to her orders, even if she was in danger.

Like I said, I understand that Galatea was distracted. But after you went on a relentless defense about how Galatea's senses surpassed even Teresa's, I'm surprised that you're not surprised at the inconsistency in the writing that made Galatea unaware of what was happening to Maita, especially after Galatea said a chapter or two ago that she can read yoki better than she ever could before which was already very good. In addition, let's not put Priscilla in the same yoki class as Maita or Agatha. She's got more yoki than the both of them combined, and this is what disrupted Teresa's yoki reading of Priscilla, not because she had her hands full with one person. Gotta look at things this way instead. Teresa successfully fought off one whose yoki she couldn't read because it was so well hidden at the same time she fought one who was brutishly strong, another who was ridiculously agile, and the master of QuickSword. Against a former #2 AB who wasn't even seriously attacking Galatea and Maita, I was expecting that Galatea's sensing would have kept her appraised of the yoki activity that was occurring however minute they were. Was I wrong or am I being unreasonable to have expected that?

There is a very key difference here, Galatea relies on her sensing for sight, while Teresa did not. The fact she can read emotions and tell someone is injured through their Yoki is quite telling of her abilities in the sensing department.

If Teresa had closed her eyes and fought all 4 of them while keeping track of each of their individual conditions, then that would be quite impressive, but she did not.

What people are wanting from Galatea is a level of detail so high that it would cause a sensory overload if she saw everything at such a detail, reading their emotions and physical state at all times, especially under pressure.

I do believe people are being slightly unreasonable with their expectations of Galatea, just because she has the capability does not mean she will always be actively noting Miata's condition, especially when she is far more focused on the threat of Agatha, who is the biggest threat, to both her and the entire town.

What Teresa did was keep track of her unseen opponents through Yoki sensing and predict patterns of attack, often confirming her targets through visual, with a few close calls here and there.

What Galatea is doing is keeping track of two individuals (one with a Yoki level above Galatea's own and the other is an Awakened #2), completely by Yoki sensing, going so far as to dodge their attacks despite being outmatched, and she is now injured and alot more concerned with keeping herself in the fight then whether Miata is suffering from a tooth ache or not. The fact she realized anything was wrong with Miata in the first place is quite amazing.

Sassarai

2007-12-31, 23:31

sigh,this chapter was as bad as the 4 extra scenes. I like Garatea and all but she does the same facial expression for 3 chapters already.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8183/04mp5.jpg

khryoleoz

2007-12-31, 23:40

Hey now! ES1 was excellent! What are you talking about as bad as the 4 extra scenes? The next one, ES7, the encounter between Teresa and Isley is gonna really exciting.

DazarGaidin

2007-12-31, 23:48

I don't know if it is so much miata being a dog and following orders, as her having a single/simple mindedness such that she ignored everything but what was in front of her.

wnmnkh

2008-01-01, 00:52

Miata shows a surprising amount of restraint in not attacking Agatha, despite being injured, she has alot more control over herself then people give her credit for, shame she is over reliant on mama's orders.

More like, she is kind of a robot that does only thing her 'mama' has ordered. Since her 'mama' did not order her to watch out Agasha, I guess she simply ignores the AB's attacks.

stormy001_M1A2

2008-01-01, 01:22

Looks like someone is going to die in next chapter. Miata was strong, able to ignore the tentacle subtle rapings and fight Galatea but guess she has her limits too. This also shows how single minded the no 4 is.

Poor grunts, but totally understandable despite fighting overwhelming odds. Hail the human troops.

Clarice is really showing her inexperience this time. Her weapon is hurting and she don't know what to do. My suspicion is she has reason to fight the monster first in next chapter. Like someone said, she showing symptoms similar to green officer in combat situation go all hell now. But at least the Organization has good eyes, they select her as Miata's partner because they can count on Clarice to complete the Organization's mission without prejudice, using Miata's fixation on parental love to do it. Quite twisted people, the Organization.

I wonder if next chapter showing Miata awakened and Clarice has to kill her? That would make a very tragic mess. Or Miata awakened, kill the old monster and accidentally kill Clarice as well? I can imagine a scene where a monster that used to be Miata cradling broken body of Clarice and murmuring Mama all the time in creepy fashion, walking away into forest.

King Lycan

2008-01-01, 01:42

Awesome chapter :heh: i just hope the fab 7 shows up or something cause Miata is injured and Galatea lost one arm:P

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-01, 03:09

Gooral

2008-01-01, 03:41

If Teresa had closed her eyes and fought all 4 of them while keeping track of each of their individual conditions, then that would be quite impressive, but she did not.
And why would she do that ? Even if she fought like that You would still think she's nothing special compared to Priscilla. Why show more of her awesomeness when we've seen plenty of it to know she was the most powerful being in every aspect (especially in youki sensing).

As for why Galatea didn't notice Miata being attacked, the reason is simple. Agatha attacked her only when Miata was close to Galatea and since her attacks weren't pinpointed she couldn't tell if Miata was injured or not. Since Miata didn't release any youki she couldn't tell the difference in her behaviour until her attacks weakened. The one who's impressive here isn't Galatea but Miata, she managed to ignore her pain, injuries and constantly fought with full power for quite some time. This chapter showed how impressive are Agatha, Miata and Rabona's soldiers (especially Galk and Cid) but I didn't see Galatea's previous brilliance. Don't compare her to Teresa (even her trait - youki-sensing-in-combat is much worse than Teresa's).

And I agree with Siegzon_Caritas - Clarice isn't green. She managed through many dire situations and now is showing her naivety and hopefulness in such obvious circumstances.

chibamonster

2008-01-01, 04:01

I am fairly impressed with Agatha. In the last chapter she realized that Galatea was using Youki manipulation to make her miss and told her it wouldn't work twice. She knows in this chapter that Miata is so focused on Galatea that she can hit her and injure her as much as she'd like. Agatha doesn't seem to be taking this very seriously. She did get her head cut off but that didn't seem to be much concern for her even if she was taken by surprise by the soldiers and Galatea.

Galatea on the other hand really seems to have her hand full. Dodging attacks from 2 opponents all the while managing a witty conversation with Agatha. It seems to be many small wounds that have hurt Miata so for me it is not too surprising that Galatea didn't notice the difference between Miata being hit subtly and Miata barely dodging. That or Agatha has an ability she hasn't completely revealed yet. Maybe she is hurting Miata with something much less noticeable than her tentacles, although it doesn't seem too likely.

I did not expect Agatha to regrow her body. I just thought she would reattach it. The feet coming out of her severed neck may have been the most bizarre thing I've seen in Claymore. Weird! Agatha hasn't even moved her awakened body much. It reminds me of the fight between Riful, Audrey and Rachel. The only way to attack her is by jumping onto her body which is the most dangerous place to be. Unless we can get a claymore powerful enough to lop off some of the limbs. It doesn't seem like Agatha would have great vision underneath her, but she'll probably just move her human form or grow eyes or something. If she gets serious and starts a rampage Rabona is toast.

I was quite impressed by Clarice's concern for Miata's safety while not very impressed by her lack of concern for Rabona. Clarice is certainly getting her rude awakening. The humans stand no chance but they will still fight. I think their attitude might be infectious to Clarice, who I see attacking Agatha out of desperation soon. I don't see anyone else coming until Clarice is at her limits either (which might take all of 30 seconds). Miata will fight to the death to defend Clarice which might make for some interesting drama.

For the next chapter I anticipate some more snide remarks from Agatha, Galatea trying to salvage the situation by asking for help, and Clarice attacking Agatha. Also I think if anyone does make an appearance it will be someone we haven't seen since the time skip; Raphaela or Isley and his crew. Or we might meet Luna finally. I'd love to see the new eye of the organization.

PGilis

2008-01-01, 05:48

Someone... please... PUNCH Clarice on the face!! :(

She's being incrediblely stupid. The series already showed pretty much what blind obedience causes.

Poor Galatea is in serious troubles. She tried to give us a 'Phantom Miria', but failed because the stupidicy of both Clarice and Miata. Even if Clarice FINALLY open her eyes to what REALLY matters here, change sides and order Miata to atack A.O. Agatha from now on, their chances are very low.

When Galatea and Miata were in top condition, their chances against Agatha were 50-50. But now Galatea lost an arm; and Miata is very hurted. Besides, they're both very tired from fighting each other. Clarice is useless AND stupid. The human army can't do much thing too against her. The the big question is: WHERE IS THE FAB-SEVEN?!! :heh:

Solace

2008-01-01, 06:25

Hmm, I must have missed the part where Miata used her Yoma powers. Crazy eyes? Nope. Big arms? Nope. Pointy teeth and ears? Nope. Seems to me she's fighting just like Teresa did way back, very strong beings without using an ounce of Yoki. Is she capable of killing an awakened? Who knows?

I think Clarice is going to have to make a tough choice, between her mission and the immediate threat. She can't do both, and if she downs Galatea there is no guarantee she'll make it out with Miata afterwards, especially since Miata is a threat to Agatha.

If we get an intervention from outside, it better be for a better reason than "we're just passing through and sensed the fight". I'd rather this part of the story be resolved with just the parties involved, it makes things more interesting to guess how they'll get out of this mess.

Defiled one

2008-01-01, 06:48

Miata has issues regarding pain, mostly due to her harsh? No, brutal and inhuman training because she wasn´t even flinching regarding her wounds. Whatever they did to her, was a total trauma..she`ll never recover from it, at least not totally.
Claris, is....not doing anything, which is normal considering that the org just wanted her to follow Miata and nothing more, much less getting caring for her "leader" experience.
Truth to be told, if this city goes down, the order will be happy. At least now, they can intimidate other villages, saying that the GREAT CITY OF RABONA was destroyed because they didn´t wanted Claymores there...which was a total bull$%&/
I think Claris is there to say, I´m just a cheerleader, nothing more.

Now, what I wanted. Probably want I my head thinks.

Galatea and Agatha exchanged motives regarding the city, saying that that protecting it´s inhabitans were more important than Galatea`s life. Agatha mocked but galatea encouraged Agatha to try it sometime....

Big question. Can awakened, actually be goodies after they awaken? Galatea is a wise woman but even I was dumbfound upon her statement, either she was being sarcastic or serious...I shall never know.

One thing for sure, What the org says about Awakened, is a complete and utter BULL$%/!

Anh_Minh

2008-01-01, 06:51

Well, as I said... somewhere, Clare does have a reason for passing through Rabona. And if they're anywhere near, the Lucky 7 should be able to sense Agatha.

And hey, it can't be worse than Clare and Ophelia fighting in Irene's range, or Galatea catching up with Clare the very day she enters the Witch's Maw.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-01, 09:40

Negativedark

2008-01-01, 10:11

evilClarice isn't green. She went north to Pieta and faced awakened beings. She travelled through the wilderness with Miata and faced Yoma by (ab)using Miata. She had ostensibly training at the hands of the Org. In chapter 75 it was unclear based on evilClarice's dialogue that she had sincerely assesed the situation; but in 76, pg 10 evilClarice spells out the "right" thing with a precise calculation of cowardice, no panic at all and she's not under fire as heroes run by her to try to help at the cost of their lives. evilClarice is a brilliant counterpoint to Galatea.

When Clarice traveled to the north, she got KO'd right at the start of the fight with awakened biengs. And Clarice admit's that the only reason she survived in the wilderness was because Maita kept saving her. And yeah, I do think she is starting to panic a bit. Panic and cowaradice are releated. She was hoping she could finish her mission and then pass the buck to someone else. I suspect it takes a fair amount of time and field experience for Claymores to really start questioning the org. I mean she didn't realize what her hair color acually signified, and lets face it, the only reason the org would have sent her on that first awakened hunt would be if they wanted to get rid of her. Clarice is in over her head, stuck in a command situation with no clue on how to deal with it. We all know that Galetea is good. She's been told desserters must die, and probably has yet to break through that indoctrination. We've had severa months to anylize the situation and figure out the obvious. I't probably been fifteen minutes or less since they found Galetea. She was told her only concern was to find and kill Galetea, and is afraid of bieng punished if she fails in that. The situation has changed, and clearly Claris cannot keep up. She just isn't ready for this. Remember how some of the Claymore's froze and one even dropped her sword in terror when Rigardo appeared in Pieta? No add to that the fact your chasing a former number three and your only companion is a very unstable child who can kill you the moment she decides your not her momma. Actually in some ways Claris is doing pretty well.

Of course right now the only possible winner is Agatha. As Galetea said they only had a 50% chance, and that was if they had foaught together right from the start. The more Maita tries to kill Galetea, the worse the chances are. In fact right now their nearly nonexistant, unless they get some help from outside.

Higasino Isley

2008-01-01, 10:29

geuss:
evilClarice is either targeted or calculates she must now face Blood Red Agatha.
Blood Red Agatha kills evilClarice.
Miata awakens.
Blood Red Agatha and Awakened Miata fight; Galatea lands a killing blow on Blood Red Agatha severing her tentacles.
Galatea tries to pull back Miata, but Miata dies from her wounds received from Agatha or is executed by Galatea.
Galatea stays in Rabona.
Rabona has a "chat" with the org.

Although this sort of closes the arc too completely...
Heck, I'd be surprised if any of it is right :heh:

It is a solution too.If Miata survived this battle,I would be so glad,and I also hope she won't wake up yet,because that girl is very strong physically,has to develop.In this case,she would be a great challenge for Kitano Isley or for the beautiful Priscilla-chan.:)

Chendzeea Li

2008-01-01, 12:06

I too orginally loathed Miata and Clarice but this chapter really moved me in a way. What it boils down to in my opinion is that they're both scared and confused children. Clarice looks pretty young herself if you think about it shes rather mousey. She's been overwhelmed since her first apperance, and helpess to do much of anything but observe. The organization clearly sees her as useless only to act as a pacifier for their weapon. It's rather tragic, I only wonder if she realizes just how worthless everyone thinks she is.
As for her being shunted up north to fight AB's I think they sent her up there the same reason they sent the girls to witches maw. Or Clare to go play with Ophelia, they just wanted to get rid of her. But low and behold she survived. I think the org may know that the fab 7 are alive, and much like Abyssals they just play ignorant to the fact since they're together. Clarice pointing this out may have annoyed them but thats a discussion for later.
As for everyone hating on Clarice for being stupid and retarded. I don't think thats really fair. I belive she's thinking like a young girl would. The orgz is like her parents, they took her out of whatever horrible event occured that let them get their hands on her and made her "better" than she was. She assumes they know what they're doing an hopes for the best. It's a trust issue. sadly she has yet to realize they don't care in the least.
I think Clarice will finally act when it counts. Being the weakest of them all. I belive she'll end up making a noble choice and perhaps give her life in an attempt to save Miata or even Galatea or perhaps both. If so I belive this will have a profound effect on Galatea and obviously "Miata for Good or bad." Far more intrestingly, a powerful enough display of emotion may even have some effect on Agatha. It may even be the fact that shes totally ignored that will let her land a killing blow on Agatha. I doubt it though.

As for an emotional turn for Agatha which I fully belive is unlikely. It is a good point that Galatea even said that. While it was most likely just a snide toss, it may have also been a hint towards Awakened ones being capable of real feelings. Which I belive they are, its just hard for them to see beyond the haze and madness of their new condition. If you recall Miria's friend didn't fight back when they came to kill her. Ophelia herself was able to resist the calling enough to allow Clare to kill her. Riful too seems fond of Duph in a weird way. I'm not saying Agatha will become a hero, but it does seem like the writer is laying the foundation for a Awakened One turn around mentally most likely Claire or perhaps Priss.

ThoHell

2008-01-01, 17:20

Good chapter, good chapter.

Clarice once again = idiot.

Poor Galatea! When is Clare and them going to arrive if they are?

And WTF happened to Miata, when did she even get attacked by the awakened one?

Agatha is like a weaker version of Rieta (forgot her name, but she's the remaining AB of the 2); the main body is actually underneath the human form the hair takes on.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-01, 17:38

If I were Clarise I hope my friends wouldn't nod sympathetically and make excuses but say to me as Galatea said about trying to help people: "You should try it some time."

Galatea's religous imagery, the more I think of it, is a very conscious choice of the author in this morality play of 75&76, which is really blowing my mind apart.

Counterpoint Galatea's blindness to the physical world (sense/temptation) to Clarice's desolate blindness to the nobility all around her (How the artist takes pains to show the motion of the noble martyrs virtually flowing over Miata like a tide! -subtle-brilliant)

But the high point of the arc for me, however it ends, is Galatea's religous ecstacy as she fully comprehends the beauty of self sacrificing love:

"I just want to protect this city and all who live in it. It's as simple as that."

Agatha replies scornfully.

Still ecstatic, Galatea agrees but turns Agatha's scorn to the poignancy and preciousness of human life: look again at the expression the artist draws on her face page 8, panel 5. Someone complained accurately of all Galatea's expressions looking the same in this arc: resolute determination. But now at this point, WOW--she's lost her arm, she's about to die--but in that panel, that panel was joy. That joy completes in page 9 panel 1 with the evangelist's joy. So much joy that you must share this joy with everyone even the pitiable wretched who scorn you.

I really believe this author is trying to relay something sublime and now the counterpoint continues with something symbolic of all of us who can't reach Galatea's heights: Clarice, uninjured, safe from the fire zone, watching, calculating for the future, impotent in the now, for the next page is Clarice's half hearted attempt to convince herself of the rightness of her actions: "This is ... This is the right thing to do...yeah..." with an expression of desolation that makes me want to cry out to her and for just a moment let her see just as blind, dying Galatea sees.

Miata is in some oh so real sense me. May God help us all be more like Galatea in our daily lives with all the people we may meet.

Three cheers for Claymore! I love this Manga!!!

Fenrir_valindri

2008-01-01, 18:01

And why would she do that ? Even if she fought like that You would still think she's nothing special compared to Priscilla. Why show more of her awesomeness when we've seen plenty of it to know she was the most powerful being in every aspect (especially in youki sensing).

That has come into question with Galatea's improved Yoki sensing, considering she can even detect those who have suppressed their Yoki and actually sees by only using Yoki sensing now, the reason I brought up this point was because people are comparing what Galatea is doing now and what Teresa was doing then and saying they are basically the same thing, when it most certainly is not. Teresa would never do that because she had her eyes, and thus never had to rely completely on Yoki sensing to fight anyone.

As for why Galatea didn't notice Miata being attacked, the reason is simple. Agatha attacked her only when Miata was close to Galatea and since her attacks weren't pinpointed she couldn't tell if Miata was injured or not. Since Miata didn't release any youki she couldn't tell the difference in her behaviour until her attacks weakened. The one who's impressive here isn't Galatea but Miata, she managed to ignore her pain, injuries and constantly fought with full power for quite some time. This chapter showed how impressive are Agatha, Miata and Rabona's soldiers (especially Galk and Cid) but I didn't see Galatea's previous brilliance. Don't compare her to Teresa (even her trait - youki-sensing-in-combat is much worse than Teresa's).

I suppose that is possible as well, Miata was awefully close whenever Agatha attacked Galatea.

What Galatea is doing is on a completely different scale then what Teresa does, so it is quite foolish to blindly state what Teresa did was absolutely superior to what we see now.

She failed to detect the hunters that were right outside of town, and she could not detect the concealed Yoki of a highly powerful warrior at close range.

Galatea has show she is superior in both these regards so far, what Teresa has show us is her superiority in combat as a more powerful and experienced warrior, as far as a straight up fight would go, Galatea would not stand a chance.

And I agree with Siegzon_Caritas - Clarice isn't green. She managed through many dire situations and now is showing her naivety and hopefulness in such obvious circumstances.

She managed through dire situations purely off the merit of Miata's strength, every opponent they have encountered before now died soon after, overwhelmed by Miata, but now she is faced with an Awakened #2 and a renegade #3 who she has orders to kill. So no, she is not very experienced.

She passed out in her first AB battle up North for gods sake, I would not count that as "experiencing" a battle with Awakened beings.

-----------------------

On a seperate note, Miata's loyalty to Clarice is hard to define at the moment, even a loyal dog won't ignore being attacked by one thing constantly while attacking another, and a robot doesn't really suit her either, because she is alot more emotional then either of the twins (who take up the "robot" role in Claymore.)

Hopefully Clarice will get her head screwed on right soon enough and attempt to salvage a team up against Agatha before the situation escalates.

Fenrir_Magnus

2008-01-01, 20:47

I've seen many comments about Clarice's stupidity... watching the Rabona soldiers getting slaughtered, not standing a chance against Agatha, but still insisting on killing Galatea. However, in one of the last pages of the chapter she tells Miata to stop attacking Galatea "Miata! Stop it at once!"

I think that in the next chapter Clarice will finally come to reason and order Miata to focus on Agatha.

Given Miata's state (emotionally unstable and suffering from physical pain) I think it's also very likely to see her awakening soon.

Newhope

2008-01-01, 22:32

I don't know where all this clarice hate is comeing from, she's been the most interesting characters introduced since Rafaela. So far I've been impressed with her tactical thinking she showed early on, if she was given time to mature and gain experience (or taken under someones wing like Mira) She could become very dangerous in group settings.

Her only downfall at this time is her inexperience, I don't think she's panicing yet I just think she doesn't know what to do in an almost hopeless situation which shows her inexperience.

As for Agatha i think shes in the story for one reason only and thats to show how powerful the fab 4 have become in the last 7 years, The fab 4 only just defeated Rigald whose power lvl should be at a similar to Agatha's, If they show up how easy they beat her will show us how much they have impoved.

Valduran

2008-01-01, 22:55

People hate Clarice for having such blind faith in the organization and sheer stupidity in the face of choices with obvious answers.

It's not that she isn't understandable...but after being presented with strong and admirable characters for the entire series, it makes the weak ones really look extra bad.

And the fact that ideally the whole reason for a Claymore's existance is to protect humanity from Yoma makes Clarice's decision to ignore Agatha and attempt to kill the one who is fighting her appear quite pathetic.

Personally, I find Miata to be far more interesting than Clarice, even though I really have nothing against Clarice myself :innocent:

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-02, 00:37

I don't hate her. I am surprised at the amount of people who would excuse someone turning a blind eye at crimes against humanity who had a reasonable chance to stop it. NAZIs who were prison gaurds at Dachau were sentenced to death. These gaurds while participating in this system had little or no way of actually stopping the crimes going on. Clarice actually had the opportunity, training and time to decide to point her gun and stop a monster (with a chance of success) from possible slaughtering an entire city. She took the time and quite coolly chose to stand aside and let the murders continue.

Gaurds in a camp system have a lot more conditioning and brainwashing and social pressure than a Claymore whose duty is to save people and who spends long tracks in isolated walking during their travels. Almost every Claymore described was rebellious against the Org. Not much of a conditioning system really. Clarice wants to serve the Org at the expense of human lives. Should we have shown the Dachau gaurds compassion? I'm just asking. It is beyond me. Or excuse them on the grounds of the stressful situation and their lack of experience? Whoever had experience at being a Dachau Gaurd? --or to make the question even more difficult the West turning a blind eye to genocide in Darfur? I'm not stating a correct choice. I am only asking. Great stories touch real issues. Claymore's a great story.

It troubles me more that I can even identify with Clarisse and her continual moral equivocations, such as manipulating a mentally unstable nuclear bomb.

It's not so peurile as hating on Clarice. I think the author is touching on some really deep issues. Clarice is not just a product of her environment. She, like the soldiers, made choices that we as readers watched her make that inevitably put her in a strategic position to stop a horrendous ongoing crime against humanity.

I think the key to understanding Claririce is in context with Galatea and both of their life choices that put them in the same place at the same time with radically different outlooks. How can I not be mesmerized? I may never face Blood Red Agatha, but there are little choices every day which can be characterized as a Clarice/Galatea coin toss. Well, its humbling to know which side of my coin lands up, let me tell you.

It's not about hatin' Just the opposite, really.

stringer13

2008-01-02, 00:43

I don't hate her either. There are a lot of people who hate her and all the new arc characters. I've seen complaints for Audrey and Rachel about how "weak" they are, Miata because she's mental, and Clarice because she afraid to defy the org.

FateAnomaly

2008-01-02, 00:51

[QUOTE=Valduran;1323459]
And the fact that ideally the whole reason for a Claymore's existance is to protect humanity from Yoma makes Clarice's decision to ignore Agatha and attempt to kill the one who is fighting her appear quite pathetic.
QUOTE]

Claymore don't exist to protect humanity. They are a business product. You pay for their services otherwise they won't even lift a finger to help you. As it happens humans are the only ones who will pay.

Anyway, i am sure Clarice will come around. The fight isn't over yet.

Newhope

2008-01-02, 01:36

Valduran

2008-01-02, 01:37

I said IDEALLY...the Organization runs a business, but for each individual Claymore, killing Yoma is usually their reason for existing.

Claymores aren't paid...they don't care about money...why do they do what they do if they are just a business product?

For many, their hatred of Yoma and their memories of humanity are what drives them on.

Of course there are more than a few who could care less about humans, but Clarice doesn't strike me as the cold-hearted type.

The Audrey/Rachel and clarice even this whole Generation debate I don't see them as weak, The vibe i'am getting is that there young and inexperienced and I don't really think its right to jugde them by clare's Generation which was was full of warriors who had been active for a long time.

If it hadn't been seven years already I would agree and write it off as the Org getting sloppy in their haste to replace their losses, but after seven years you would think that at least the single digit Claymores would have gathered some serious battle experience and skill by now...

Even so, you are right in that this IS the "vibe" we are getting.

stringer13

2008-01-02, 01:56

I don't understand the "Afraid to defy org" part , why should she defy them when there given her no reason to. The only claymores that have a reason are the the 7 survivors and maybe Rafaela.

Clarice has shown no malice towards the people in the town, she's just made the decision that killing Galatea and retreating would be the best strategy. I even think she's haveing to fight her Conscious when shes thinking this is the right thing to do.

The Audrey/Rachel and clarice even this whole Generation debate I don't see them as weak, The vibe i'am getting is that there young and inexperienced and I don't really think its right to jugde them by clare's Generation which was was full of warriors who had been active for a long time.Well Galatea defied the org because she probally didn't like how they treated claymores like pawns. But what I basically meant was if she went for Agatha first then Miata would not be able to fight close to her full power. Same thing for Galatea but she has more experience so she could probally escape anyways. Galatea would be able to escape and then Clarice would be in trouble somewhat like what happened with Galatea after her encouter with Clare and Jean.

I believe that Audrey and Rachel aren't weak and may be considered average compared to past claymores who had the ranks 3 and 5. But compared to Irene who was number 3 they were rather pathetic in my opinion. ALso I don't think they could've stood up to Noel and Sophia either.

evil_kenshin

2008-01-02, 02:20

Newhope

2008-01-02, 02:24

If it hadn't been seven years already I would agree and write it off as the Org getting sloppy in their haste to replace their losses, but after seven years you would think that at least the single digit Claymores would have gathered some serious battle experience and skill by now...

Even so, you are right in that this IS the "vibe" we are getting.

You have to remember 7 years is the longest any of of this Generation has been active and thats only if the Org knew months if not years in advance that clares Generation was going to be almost wiped out.

I Don't think that normaly there is a sudden change in Generations, its probly a slow process that happens over a number of years. If thats the case the older claymores will teach or show the new how to fight. like what happened to Mira with Hilda. The current Generation didn't have this advantage because the Org had to nearly start from nothing.

The org's new policy on ABs doesn't help either, I expect judgeing by Clarice's AB hunt that this Generations casualty rate is high compared with other Generations.

Valduran

2008-01-02, 02:35

actually they are paid to do what they do , Teresa was paid by the organization as was Clare and im sure the others were aswell

Yes of course they were given money for expenses or whatever...but that detail isn't really relevant to what I am trying to say. Whether or not they receive proper wages, they are most definately not doing this for the money.

You have to remember 7 years is the longest any of of this Generation has been active and that only if the Org new months if no years in advance that clares Generation was going to be almost wiped out.

I Don't think that normaly they is a sudden change in Generations, its probly a slow process that happen over a number of years. If thats the case the older claymores will teach or show the new how to fight. like what happened to Mira with hilda. The current Generation didn't have this advantage because the Orf had to nearly start from nothing.

The org's new policy on ABs doesn't help either, I expect judgeing by Clarice's AB hunt that this Generations casualty rate is high compared with other Generations.

Good points. ^^

GundamZZ

2008-01-02, 02:57

It's like Irene's Teresa hunting party. They just want to do their job and go "home". The organization is their only home on the continent.

In the past, they show team battles in the different circumstances. Three on three battle is rare. It's not easy to make the prediction. Last time, Clare ran away when facing Ophelia and the awaken. Ideally, three on three would be attacking other two opponents at the same time. However, it usually turns out to be two on one battle. Two opposing force would team up to eliminate one opposing part. Then, they can duke it out.

In Galatea's case, she's on full defense. So, she lives longer than expected. Miata is on full offense. Agatha is on partial offense, with some distraction from the soldiers. The current situation is that Miata has to be awaken to own Agatha. This path is too predicable. Maybe she can team up with Galatea. According to Galatea: Galatea + Miata = Agatha. There's one missing consideration. The drug effect is wearing out. Miata can sense youki without relying on her instinct.

Gooral

2008-01-02, 04:04

What Galatea is doing is on a completely different scale then what Teresa does, so it is quite foolish to blindly state what Teresa did was absolutely superior to what we see now.
I agree it's on a completely different scale that's why it's not foolish to state that Teresa's ability was superior to Galatea's.
Galatea has show she is superior in both these regards so far, what Teresa has show us is her superiority in combat as a more powerful and experienced warrior, as far as a straight up fight would go, Galatea would not stand a chance.
No she isn't superior, she has better range (probably) and is specialized in sensing emotions and such but in combat she's inferior to Teresa (of course now and before I was referring to youki sensing, it's obvious Teresa's much stronger overall). Even her emotion-sensing isn't that great (at least in combat conditions) otherwise she would notice that Miata is in pain before her attacks weakened. She was too occupied following her adversaries attacks to notice it thus she has a long way to go. The reason she didn't regenerate her eyes for example during this fight was because without them she would be still more powerful than with them.She managed through dire situations purely off the merit of Miata's strength, every opponent they have encountered before now died soon after, overwhelmed by Miata, but now she is faced with an Awakened #2 and a renegade #3 who she has orders to kill. So no, she is not very experienced.
Huh ? You're saying that someone who survived through such situations isn't experienced ? lol
It doesn't matter how she survived, she survived and that's what counts. War correspondent is definitely much more experienced than tabloid's journalist or paparazzi. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, no matter how.

(...)
I believe that Audrey and Rachel aren't weak and may be considered average compared to past claymores who had the ranks 3 and 5. But compared to Irene who was number 3 they were rather pathetic in my opinion. ALso I don't think they could've stood up to Noel and Sophia either.
Don't know where some of You got the idea that Rachel and Audrey are weaker than previous #3 and #5. All we've seen was their fight with the most powerful being (besides Pricilla and Teresa). Even if they fought 0% Teresa we wouldn't be able to measure their strength and they were fighting with AO in awakened form. Clare and the rest managed to rescue them mainly thanks to surprise, 4 side attack and their invisibility. If they went on Riful head on (as Rachel and Audrey did) they could only save themselves. Give Riful some credit.
I don't know where all this clarice hate is comeing from, she's been the most interesting characters introduced since Rafaela. So far I've been impressed with her tactical thinking she showed early on, if she was given time to mature and gain experience (or taken under someones wing like Mira) She could become very dangerous in group settings.
It's not hate but disappointment. What tactical thinking ? It appears that all her thinking was done in advance by the MiB who told her what to do. If she really used her brain then she wouldn't allow Miata to attack Galatea mindlessly, rather let Agatha do all the work .
And yes she's the most interesting new character but only because the only new one's are minor Audrey and Rachel and dog Miata. We don’t have many options.
As I've written above, she's not that inexperienced, she faced hopeless situations several times already. Also common sense has nothing to do with experience, she acts stupidly and it's not because she's inexperienced. Teresa or Galatea always executed orders but at the right time they thought by themselves. Clarice is just lacking intelligence.

I'm not sure how suppressant pills work, but if it's possible to nullify it's effect by forceful youki release (and I believe it's possible) then Clarice is org-fanatic, who risked her life just to not fail MiB expectations. I think these pills prevent only leaking youki and mess up one's ability to detect other's youki and Clarice didn't use her power because their orders said so, even when she was about to die.
If these suppressants are powerful enough to seal youki completely, why then organization didn't use sth like this to prevent awakening, instead of black cards Claymores should have suppressant pill in their swords (and that way they wouldn't even have to send black cards).
They could even force almost awakened claymores to swallow them, injections would do the role, or sth like Indians with his blowpipes and curare (I emphasize word "almost", because awakened being would have too tough skin to make that possible). It should at least weaken the flow of youki.Unless it doesn't work when the flow started, but then MiB are smart, they could develop next version of these pills.
I'm writing this because if I'm right, Clarice risked her life knowingly once (she didn't use her youki to increase her stregth to pull out her sword from a tree) and now is standing doing nothing.

Newhope

2008-01-02, 04:46

It's not hate but disappointment. What tactical thinking ? It appears that all her thinking was done in advance by the MiB who told her what to do. If she really used her brain then she wouldn't allow Miata to attack Galatea mindlessly, rather let Agatha do all the work .
And yes she's the most interesting new character but only because the only new one's are minor Audrey and Rachel and dog Miata. We don’t have many options.
As I've written above, she's not that inexperienced, she faced hopeless situations several times already. Also common sense has nothing to do with experience, she acts stupidly and it's not because she's inexperienced. Teresa or Galatea always executed orders but at the right time they thought by themselves. Clarice is just lacking intelligence.

I think your misjudgeing clarice she's shown us a few times that she has a sharp mind. In the frist chapter she was in she worked out that they was more than likely 7 survivors from the war, then she deduced that Galatea would be hideing as a blind person and lastly telling Miata to release her power all tells us she's sharper than the average claymore.

Her inexperience really showed in this chapter a battle hardened claymore wouldn't just stand there qustioning if she was doing the right thing.

Her plan to kill Galatea then retreat was pretty sound as Agatha would be more likely to stay and feed on the human solders than run after them.

D a m i e n

2008-01-02, 04:58

can we assume that clarisse is the new raki? she has all the attributes : useless clueless powerless.

Gooral

2008-01-02, 05:03

I think your misjudgeing clarice she's shown us a few times that she has a sharp mind. In the frist chapter she was in she worked out that they was more than likely 7 survivors from the war, then she deduced that Galatea would be hideing as a blind person and lastly telling Miata to release her power all tells us she's sharper than the average claymore.(...)
After seeing her current behaviour I would think MiB suggested to her Galatea might be blind and that she might try youki manipulation (and that's why Clarice told Miata to release her youki). As for counting the swords, I don't see it as sth brilliant. She was miraculously saved in the place where 24 warriors perished, even Clarice isn't stupid enough to believe in ghosts.
Let's see, we have Galatea who's willing to fight awakened former #2. Why then not wait until Galatea weakens ? Since You've said that Agatha wouldn't be interested in Clarice and Miata if they didn't attack her.

If Clarice will start to analyze situation she's in I will change my opinion of her from stupid to thick-headed.

irvinethearcher

2008-01-02, 05:15

BTW, I really liked how Galatea used the QuickSword and DrillSword on Maita. It's too bad she couldn't see that attack coming from Agatha which pierced her.

I read the chapter two times and didn't see anything of a drill or quick sword from galatea, sorry...
I will read it a third time but i have my doubts about this.

Flar

2008-01-02, 05:50

I read the chapter two times and didn't see anything of a drill or quick sword from galatea, sorry...I think Khryoleoz was just making fun of Galatea's rabid fans, with a reference to a part of the fake translation we had earlier in the manga thread... He likely meant that she got owned though and through. :p

As for Clarice, she is afraid, that is clear, but her reasoning is sound, and she is quick-witted. I get the impression she gets insulted because the decision she takes does not please the audience. Dumb is not the opposite of brave, and in the end, if I have to call anyone dumb it, would be Galatea, who, in the Witch Maw as well as now, tried to get herself killed for absolutely zero benefit, but got rescued by authorial fiat. (like, she goes fight head on with an abyssal, what did she expect? That the author would make Riful not fight and let her go free? Same for Rabona... What does that little speech about fighting for others mean except that she decided to die along the Rabona citizen?)

Why would anyone try to convince himself that it was the MiBs thinking for Clarice, anyway? Because it's not cool to have a potential protagonist make a cowardly choice? Because she isn't badass enough to laugh about it? Were she Guts, people would be going mad about how badass it is to stick to her mission and tell bystanders to go screw themselves.

Valduran

2008-01-02, 05:51

can we assume that clarisse is the new raki? she has all the attributes : useless clueless powerless.

But she isn't annoying, whiny or clingy. Sorry, we'll just have to wait for the real Raki to come back.

As for Clarice, she is afraid, that is clear, but her reasoning is sound, and she is quick-witted. I get the impression she gets insulted because the decision she takes does not please the audience. Dumb is not the opposite of brave, and in the end, if I have to call anyone dumb it, would be Galatea, who, in the Witch Maw as well as now, tried to get herself killed for absolutely zero benefit, but got rescued by authorial fiat. (like, she goes fight head on with an abyssal, what did she expect? That the author would make Riful not fight and let her go free? Same for Rabona... What does that little speech about fighting for others mean except that she decided to die along the Rabona citizen?)

Her reasoning is sound if she is nothing more than an Org puppet...

I don't know about everyone else, but my problem isn't with her intelligence level so much as her inability to think independantly.

But for some reason I still like her a little...maybe I feel sympathy.

About Galatea, being dumb is all relative to what you are trying to accomplish. If her only goal is to protect the people of Rabona to the best of her ability then she doesn't really have any other options. Her goal in Witch's Maw was to save her comrades, and more specifically Clare...but she was basing her decision on the assumption that Riful wouldn't interfere.

Clarice is somewhat stupid because she is blatantly ignoring the best courses of action to accomplish her goal.

Sassarai

2008-01-02, 06:10

It has to be fake, no way nothing really happens story-wise and next chapter starts exactly like this one, with Galatea in a pinch, Agatha alive, Miata locked on Galatea, and Clarice still being the unknown variable.

I cant believe you totally guessed what happened in chap 76.

Gooral

2008-01-02, 06:16

I get the impression she gets insulted because the decision she takes does not please the audience.
No. At least I don't think she's stupid because she doesn't act as I want. Read again my reply to Your first post in this thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1321286&postcount=12).
I've written why I think she's stupid ["she's incapable of thinking by herself (read: she's stupid)"].

Anyway, page 11 (when she wants to report the situation after Galatea's death) of this chapter shows her naivety and stupidity.

Newhope

2008-01-02, 06:21

Her reasoning is sound if she is nothing more than an Org puppet...

Her reasoning is sound for now because for now the Org hasn't givern her a reason to rebel. The Org sent them both to kill Galatea a mission within matia ablitys to handle, The ABs appearance couldn't have been foreseen because the MIB didn't even know where Galatea was.

Galatea's fight in the witch's maw was in no way dumb it had to happen to buy time, Her only mistake then was underestimating her opponent in the frist place. Her fight againest agatha is another matter I wouldn't say she's stupid just naive in thinking that they would help her, In a way it could be a sign she has softened like Teresa did.

Valduran

2008-01-02, 06:38

It's fairly obvious that Galatea has softened like Teresa, she wouldn't be giving her life to save the people of Rabona if that weren't the case ;)

Now I'm just hoping that her softness doesn't end up with the same result as Teresa's :(

Flar

2008-01-02, 07:14

I cant believe you totally guessed what happened in chap 76.Yeah, I was wrong, and it makes me sad.

Clarice is somewhat stupid because she is blatantly ignoring the best courses of action to accomplish her goal.
I've written why I think she's stupid ["she's incapable of thinking by herself (read: she's stupid)"].

Anyway, page 11 (when she wants to report the situation after Galatea's death) of this chapter shows her naivety and stupidity.
That's where I disagree with you.
1) Clarice doesn't enter the fight because she cannot keep up with the speed of it. She is way more useful in the rear, to have a global picture and the ability to issue commands to Miata according to this. It already proved useful when she told Miata to release her yoki in 75
2) She recognizes the power of her opponents and decides (thinks for herself) that she has a choice between fighting a hopeless battle alongside a traitor, getting killed and offering the traitor a chance to escape, or focus on the traitor, accomplish her mission and keep a chance to escape and to ask for effective help (tell me, who has more chances to escape and knock on org's door to ask for alicia, Galatea? The weak humans?)
3) Choosing the option offering the most chance of survival is not being naive and stupid, it's being realistic and cynical. (and yes, not courageous, determined or idealistic, like Galatea is)

Galatea's fight in the witch's maw was in no way dumb it had to happen to buy time, Her only mistake then was underestimating her opponent in the frist place.
Her goal in Witch's Maw was to save her comrades, and more specifically Clare...but she was basing her decision on the assumption that Riful wouldn't interfere.
She was basing her decision on nothing like that. She willingly entered the Witch's Maw knowing that Riful and Duff were there, that they both overpowered her,
that Clare was a weak Claymore not likely to cooperate with her hunter, and that the first team was already captured and decimated.

What she wanted, was to fool Duff, grab Clare and run. Duff prevented that, and, in the words of Gooral above, she was naive and stupid, even arrogant to think
she could get away like that.

What happened after was not dependant of her anymore, she was cornered and fought with all she had, even while the situation was hopeless, with Riful ready to tear them to shreds if Duff didn't do it before. She didn't underestimate anyone, she just had no choice anymore but to inflict maximum of damage and die (if it was not for deux ex machina whims of Riful)

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-02, 07:51

1) Clarice doesn't enter the fight because she cannot keep up with the speed of it. She is way more useful in the rear, to have a global picture and the ability to issue commands to Miata according to this. It already proved useful when she told Miata to release her yoki in 75
2) She recognizes the power of her opponents and decides (thinks for herself) that she has a choice between fighting a hopeless battle alongside a traitor, getting killed and offering the traitor a chance to escape, or focus on the traitor, accomplish her mission and keep a chance to escape and to ask for effective help (tell me, who has more chances to escape and knock on org's door to ask for alicia, Galatea? The weak humans?)
3) Choosing the option offering the most chance of survival is not being naive and stupid, it's being realistic and cynical. (and yes, not courageous, determined or idealistic, like Galatea is)

1. That didn't stop the soldiers and they landed several blows. In fact with Galatea and Miata in unison fighting she might very well have made the difference.

2. She despairs over the power of her opponent. She decides to help the AO in mass murder by continuing to hunt someone trying to stop the AO. Despite seeing Agatha's virulent sadism, she doesn't just choose inaction but keeps trying to kill the defender. If it is oh. so. hopeless, why not just pull back and hide under the covers? Let Agatha finish her mission for her. Again, humans are dying right and left while all this is happening. Aggie isn't just feeding she seems to be revelling in murder, so there may be no end in sight for Rabona.

Why cannot the humans send a runner to knock on the Org's door? That's sop for help from Org. It's because running away is what Clarice wants to do. It's just a rationalization. (Hey, that's what I'd want to do to) As mentioned earlier, Agatha would have gutted the town and moved on by then as is sop for AO.

3. Offers the most chance of survival for her. If that were her objective she should have stayed in bed. Her inaction (or action in joining Agatha in killing Galatea) offers the least chance of survival for Miata as we see and of course for all the other folks. It suxxorz pretty bad when staying in bed is a more moral and effective choice than a battleplan. That's because Clarice isn't formulating a battleplan, she's struggling with a moral dillemma. She hasn't reached the how yet. Her reasons are just reassurances, not tactics.

One piece of insanely bad writing or Agatha is drunk on blood or power, she verbalizes how to kill her (cut my tentacles) What's up with that?!

Valduran

2008-01-02, 08:17

That's where I disagree with you.
1) Clarice doesn't enter the fight because she cannot keep up with the speed of it. She is way more useful in the rear, to have a global picture and the ability to issue commands to Miata according to this. It already proved useful when she told Miata to release her yoki in 75
2) She recognizes the power of her opponents and decides (thinks for herself) that she has a choice between fighting a hopeless battle alongside a traitor, getting killed and offering the traitor a chance to escape, or focus on the traitor, accomplish her mission and keep a chance to escape and to ask for effective help (tell me, who has more chances to escape and knock on org's door to ask for alicia, Galatea? The weak humans?)
3) Choosing the option offering the most chance of survival is not being naive and stupid, it's being realistic and cynical. (and yes, not courageous, determined or idealistic, like Galatea is)

You are forgetting that there are other courses of action possible besides "Kill Galatea" and "Kill Agatha" :p

Clarice isn't choosing the option with the most chance of survival...
Quite the opposite actually. The end result of her choice is most likely the deaths of Galatea AND Miata, and probably hers as well, which would possibly a still be considered a successful mission in the eyes of the Org, but that is hardly Clarice's reasoning.

Flar

2008-01-02, 08:32

1. That didn't stop the soldiers and they landed several blows. In fact with Galatea and Miata in unison fighting she might very well have made the difference.50% chance according to Galatea, yes. I'm not arguing that she makes the right, moral choice, I'm arguing that she makes it on her own, after thinking about it, and that her reasoning is sound. The soldiers have the excuse of not knowing what their are up against and thinking victory is possible and preferable to *gasp* helping people evacuate.

If it is oh so hopeless, why not just pull back and hide under the covers? Let Agatha finish her mission for her. Because she has a mission to fulfill and she has to make sure it is done. I never said killing Galatea was hopeless, neither did Clarice, but she did say (I didn't) that killing Agatha was. Trying to do the impossible is futile, so killing Galatea after killing Agatha is out of the question (for Clarice), but killing Galatea and getting away is totally in the realm of possibilities (in Clarice mind) so it's worth a shot.

It's just a rationalization. (Hey, that's what I'd want to do to) As mentioned earlier, Agatha would have gutted the town and moved on by then as is sop for AO.It's a good judgement. A town plus two Claymores annihilated is worse than a town annihilated alone, plus as I said before, she has zero reason to slay the AB: no orders, the city is enemy of the org, and letting Agatha go rampage kills two birds with the same stone: gets rid of Galatea, and sends a warning to other cities who would think of defying the org. Not moral, but when was stupidity linked with morality exactly?

Also, who are you to know what Clarice wants to do? Seems your reasoning here is a bit peculiar: "C says it's best to not attack A -> C wants to run" therefore C says it's best because she wants to run? You not only disregard the reasonable justifications given to substitute your own, based on your feelings, but you then reverse the direction of the implication and seem to consider it fact when it's just another groundless assumption based on yet another assumption.

3. Offers the most chance of survival for her. If that were her objective she should have stayed in bed. Her objective is to kill Galatea. Offering chances of survival to her goes against her mission objective. Again, we were arguing about stupidity, not morality.

I may as well add again that even if indivdual Claymores may be idealist fools, most of org's members are not against letting humans be slaughtered or laugh about it. Starting with Teresa, who held contempt toward humans, and told what I don't doubt is the truth, that whole villages were slaughtered when they didn't pay. Remember that, people have to pay for Claymores to help. Rubul expanded on that an early chapter, when Clare talked about the action the org would take if a contract was offered on Priscilla. His answer was exactly like Clarice's: weight your options and decide what is the best for the org.
No, Claymores are not duty-bound to protect humans, they are hired killers, and Clarice was not paid to waste Miata in a hopeless fight for the benefit of a defiant city and a traitor. She makes the clever choice, even though I have no doubt she inside isn't a heartless bastard and will be swayed into stupidity by the suicidal crew, and saved in extremis by some sort of authorial miracle.

One piece of insanely bad writing or Agatha is drunk on blood or power, she verbalizes how to kill her (cut my tentacles) What's up with that?!Arrogance, lies, maybe a trap. It's not out of character any way you look at it. Actually reminds me of Riful playing the weak AB against Rachel and Audrey. "Oh no, another strong blow like this and I will...".

You are forgetting that there are other courses of action possible besides "Kill Galatea" and "Kill Agatha" :p

Clarice isn't choosing the option with the most chance of survival...But she is. Not killing Galatea is not an option. Clarice judged killing Agatha to be impossible. Her mission precludes her from leaving the premises without ascertaining that the traitor is dead. Actually exploiting Agatha's strength to further overwhelm her quarry and make the kill easier and faster is the best solution. When Galatea is dead, then comes the survival plan. Whatever she does except that leaves room for Galatea to escape and endangers them more. (either through Miata's death, injuries, townspeople defending G, or G just slipping away when not slowed down by A anymore -either mid fight or after-)

Valduran

2008-01-02, 09:13

Actually exploiting Agatha's strength to further overwhelm her quarry and make the kill easier and faster is the best solution.

Except she isn't.

Currently her plan consists of throwing Miata in harm's way to...um...see who can kill Galatea faster? :p

Her current course of action's most probable result is death for everyone involved EXCEPT their true enemy.

Negativedark

2008-01-02, 09:51

Let's face it, Claris is not one of the fab four. Not just in ability, but also in personality and experience. It's mentioned the Org got all the expendible and problamatic Claymore's together for the Pieta. That means they purged everyone who might question them or rebel.

Now of the fab four, lets see when they started to question the Org.
Miria began investigating after Hilda's death and discovered the orgs dark secret. We have no evidence she was disloyal before that.
Helen and Deneve were troublemakers, but they didn't begin working against the org until the suicide mission they were sent on.
Claire actually knew how rotton the org is from what happened with Teresea, but didn't feel she had reason to dessert before Ophilia and looking for Raki.

And here's another thing. If Teresea were to end up in in a town with an awakened bieng attacking, before she had met Claire, I don't think she would have done anything to save a town from an awakened bieng unless ordered.

Depending on the Claymore they may or may not act. Most are not allies of Justice types. Of the four who were sent after Teresea, only Priscilla thoaught she deserved to die. The others just saw it as a job.

When the org sent all those Claymore's to Pieta it was to buy time, but also was used as a purge. The org wan't the Claymores to be obidient and expendable. They have probably been working harder at the obiedient part. To most Claymores they have to obey their orders. There half monsters. If they try to leave they will have to always hide and fear bieng found and killed. Where do they have to go? It takes extraordanery cicumstances for them to decide to leave. Claris is doing what in her mind is the best option. She's probably afraid that she'll be executed if she abandons her mission or works with Galetea, she'll be executed. She knows that Miata and her cannot beat Agatha. So she clings to the only stupid foolish hope she has, that they can kill Galetea, get the hell out of dodge, and get the org to send help. Sorta like that Claymore who wanted to leave Aurdery and Rachel with Riful and try to get help. Remember whe have a different viewpoint to see events than charecters in the series.

Also this was a short chapter for Claymore. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the first ten pages of chapter 77. I figure Claris will eventually either come to her senses, or be shamed by her falure to do so for the rest of her life, and trait that could greatly shape her charecter in the future.

mosmos

2008-01-02, 10:11

i love Galatea after this chapter..

Please dont die!

Gooral

2008-01-02, 10:15

(...)That's where I disagree with you. (...)
1) She doesn't have to keep up with the speed of it. Staying on one roof, waiting on Galatea to come to her would do.
2) As I've written in my first and second posts, if she used her brain then she wouldn't mindlessly send Miata to exhaust herself by fighting Galatea, but wait until Galatea weakens and at the right moment attacked in the meantime Miata should have kept watching Galatea not allowing her to escape. What she did was really stupid, because even if Miata managed to kill Galatea there would be no one who could keep Agatha occupied allowing them to escape and with exhausted Miata it would be even less probable.
3) But she didn't choose the best option of survival nor the best option for accomplishing her mission

Trying to do the impossible is futile, so killing Galatea after killing Agatha is out of the question (for Clarice), but killing Galatea and getting away is totally in the realm of possibilities (in Clarice mind) so it's worth a shot.
Yeah, but with Miata being injured due her stupidity, it's becoming impossible.

It's a good judgement. A town plus two Claymores annihilated is worse than a town annihilated alone, plus as I said before, she has zero reason to slay the AB: no orders, the city is enemy of the org, and letting Agatha go rampage kills two birds with the same stone: gets rid of Galatea, and sends a warning to other cities who would think of defying the org. Not moral, but when was stupidity linked with morality exactly?
If she wanted to increase their chances of survival she wouldn't send Miata on a fight where at any moment Agatha could attack her. Let's see, we have Galatea who's willing to fight awakened former #2. Why then not wait until Galatea weakens ? Answer me, please. Don't know why You're assuming that many of us here think Clarice is stupid because she doesn't want to fight AB. Nobody said that.
Actually the only way they could kill Galatea was by Galatea's own will, otherwise she would always sense them and could escape. Clarice noticed that Galatea knew they were coming (knew because Galatea could sense their youki), nonetheless she wasn't smart enough to notice that Galatea doesn't consider them as a threat, which means she isn't afraid of their combined strength. Even if it was Galatea's bold behaviour, Clarice couldn't have know that, thus blindly charging and attacking her wasn't smart choice if she didn't know opponents strength (and she didn't). All in all she was stupid no matter from which side I'm looking at her.

Flar

2008-01-02, 11:19

1) She doesn't have to keep up with the speed of it. Staying on one roof, waiting on Galatea to come to her would do.Why would Galatea come to her on a roof? Attracted by Clarice boobs or something? If you say Miata will herd her there, I call shenanigans in advance, by the way, considering that Miata is not in control, and that she would have exactly the same chance of herding her on the ground, where Clarice is.

2) As I've written in my first and second posts, if she used her brain then she wouldn't mindlessly send Miata to exhaust herself by fighting Galatea, but wait until Galatea weakens and at the right moment attacked in the meantime Miata should have kept watching Galatea not allowing her to escape.
If she wanted to increase their chances of survival she wouldn't send Miata on a fight where at any moment Agatha could attack her. Let's see, we have Galatea who's willing to fight awakened former #2. Why then not wait until Galatea weakens ? Answer me, please. Except the fight started before Agatha appeared, Miata seemed to fare very well, even permitting Agatha to sever Galatea's left arm, and removing Miata might have given Galatea breathing space to reevaluate her strategy and pull a fast one on them. Why would she recall Miata under these circumstances?

Now, now that Agatha is shown to be undiscriminate, I trust she will change Miata's orders to at least reflect your reasoning. If Miata can be steered that easily once unleashed, and I'm not so sure she can.

Also, there is one big drawback in not getting things done yourself, Galatea might awaken. Hilarious scene at HQ afterwards: "we were chilling, looking at Galatea fighting when the huge AB got hold of her and made her awaken... Err, she told me to say that rimuto was next. Sorry."

What she did was really stupid, because even if Miata managed to kill Galatea there would be no one who could keep Agatha occupied allowing them to escape and with exhausted Miata it would be even less probable.I disagree, Agatha isn't trying to kill the Claymores specifically, and she is totally static. If you run and lose yourself in the streets, and gobble a yoki pill, it's over, and Agatha will stay and will be busy drinking Sid's blood. Also, once again, letting Galatea live isn't an option, and they cannot leave until she's dead. So either way she absolutely cannot decide to leave Galatea as decoy. Sending Miata in just speeds up the process (or so it seemed).

3) But she didn't choose the best option of survival nor the best option for accomplishing her missionPerhaps not, but not the best never was a synonym for the worst, and under the circumstances, her decision was reasonable, not stupid. I won't change opinion no matter how many time you repeat the words stupid so let's agree to disagree, ok?

Yeah, but with Miata being injured due her stupidity, it's becoming impossible.Ah, but that's the catch, she wasn't supposed to get injured, things will change because Agatha is a moron.

Don't know why You're assuming that many of us here think Clarice is stupid because she doesn't want to fight AB. Nobody said that.I didn't say that either, indeed.

Actually the only way they could kill Galatea was by Galatea's own will, otherwise she would always sense them and could escape. Clarice noticed that Galatea knew they were coming (knew because Galatea could sense their youki)Uh, how in hell is this an argument in favour of Clarice stupidity?

nonetheless she wasn't smart enough to notice that Galatea doesn't consider them as a threat, which means she isn't afraid of their combined strength.But she did, in chapter 74, telling her to not look down on Miata.

Even if it was Galatea's bold behaviour, Clarice couldn't have know that, thus blindly charging and attacking her wasn't smart choice if she didn't know opponents strength (and she didn't). All in all she was stupid no matter from which side I'm looking at her.Oh yeah, right. I guess it wasn't smart letting Miata attack all these oh so confident ABs on the way either. Or for Clare to rush at anyone in her way, or for Galatea to attack Duff or Agatha... Or for Galatea to not consider people sent to kill her a threat. Please, this is ridiculous.

It's not stupid, it's called confidence and it's based on experience of what Miata is capable of, as well as on the org decision to send only Miata.

What would you want Clarice to do, tell Miata to sit back and observe the enemy facing them doing nothing? "Look, if you stare long enough, you will be able to pierce through the pills' effect and not only read her powerlevel but her secret moves and her intentions"

FateAnomaly

2008-01-02, 11:34

Actually the only way they could kill Galatea was by Galatea's own will, otherwise she would always sense them and could escape. Clarice noticed that Galatea knew they were coming (knew because Galatea could sense their youki), nonetheless she wasn't smart enough to notice that Galatea doesn't consider them as a threat, which means she isn't afraid of their combined strength. Even if it was Galatea's bold behaviour, Clarice couldn't have know that, thus blindly charging and attacking her wasn't smart choice if she didn't know opponents strength (and she didn't). All in all she was stupid no matter from which side I'm looking at her.

You said it yourself, if they miss this chance to kill Galatea, they won't have a second chance to track her.

And, nobody knows Miata is under attack, not even Galatea much less Clarice. Miata certainly didn't say a word until Miata injury got really bad. Clarice probably thought Galatea is the only one under attack. Now that she knows Miata is under attack, she will probably do something.

Clarice is not strong like the other claymore, she can't even cut through a tree in 1 stroke but i certainly don't think she is stupid. Her reasoning fits someone of her ability. She don't think that they could win against a number 2 AB and still complete her mission so she choose to complete the mission and preferably escape. The AB don't usually hunt claymore, they hunt humans so it is possible to run if they don't provoke her. Unfortunately Agatha is too blood thirsty. She also don't know the character of Galatea enough to trust her anyway.

Gooral

2008-01-02, 11:55

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-02, 12:04

I may as well add again that even if indivdual Claymores may be idealist fools, most of org's members are not against letting humans be slaughtered or laugh about it. Starting with Teresa, who held contempt toward humans, and told what I don't doubt is the truth, that whole villages were slaughtered when they didn't pay. Remember that, people have to pay for Claymores to help. Rubul expanded on that an early chapter, when Clare talked about the action the org would take if a contract was offered on Priscilla. His answer was exactly like Clarice's: weight your options and decide what is the best for the org.
No, Claymores are not duty-bound to protect humans, they are hired killers, and Clarice was not paid to waste Miata in a hopeless fight for the benefit of a defiant city and a traitor. She makes the clever choice, even though I have no doubt she inside isn't a heartless bastard and will be swayed into stupidity by the suicidal crew, and saved in extremis by some sort of authorial miracle.

Teresa held contempt? She may have acted with contempt, but she spent her life protecting them. Teresa talked a tough game, but there's never a record of her letting a Yoma walk. It's pretty clear that she did what she felt best and pretty clear that she had a sense of justice.

I don't think we can draw an equivalency between claymore and org. The Claymore get no benefits and in fact are weapons created to kill Yoma. If anything it should have been not only a moral necessity to kill Aggie, but also part of her nature to defend. Time and again they risk their lives for no benefit. The org isn't kookoo enough to create claymore in their image :uhoh::uhoh:

Claymore are people trained and raised to kill Yoma frequently chosen for their motivation to kill Yoma, e.g. orphaned by Yoma. They don't reap monetary rewards and they don't seem particularly subject to conditioning, given the nature of their work: independent and solitary.

I won't go into morality since there's been no objection to my original explanations. Tactics based on fulfilling the Org's desires speaks for itself.

Gooral explicated pretty clearly why even given her desire to fulfill evil orgs wishes her reasoning was not tactically sound and y'all agree to disagree, so I will too as the proof was in the pudding. Send her a copy of the Art of War.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-02, 12:11

Her inexperience really showed in this chapter a battle hardened claymore wouldn't just stand there qustioning if she was doing the right thing.

Find me a battle hardened Claymore who would not go after Agatha, who would even consider Clarice's choice. Even Ophelia would tell them to stuff it. Their fate, their training, their raison d'etre all point to stopping the AB.

Anima

2008-01-02, 12:32

Find me a battle hardened Claymore who would not go after Agatha, who would even consider Clarice's choice. Even Ophelia would tell them to stuff it. Their fate, their training, their raison d'etre all point to stopping the AB.
I am sure you mean any Yoma not just AB.

Gooral

2008-01-02, 13:05

Why would Galatea come to her on a roof? Attracted by Clarice boobs or something? If you say Miata will herd her there, I call shenanigans in advance, by the way, considering that Miata is not in control, and that she would have exactly the same chance of herding her on the ground, where Clarice is. I see I have to change my tone.
Think a little will ya ?
Galatea didn't have that much options to escape, she could use roofs of every house in the city, but the damages she would do would be even worse than what Agatha did. As we've seen she circles around Agatha so sooner or later she would come across Clarice. Simple as that. And my suggestion was only one of the possibilities, it would suffice that Miata would stall Galatea for a moment and Clarice would have her chance (and she would't need great speed for that).Except the fight started before Agatha appeared, Miata seemed to fare very well, (...). Hilarious scene at HQ afterwards: "we were chilling, looking at Galatea fighting when the huge AB got hold of her and made her awaken... Err, she told me to say that rimuto was next. Sorry."Miata didn't fare well, she couldn't even touch her, when Miata had the best chance (when Galatea was defenseless) and the moment she let Miata fight Galatea despite Agatha being there was a stupid thing to do.
And your awakening theory is stupid, why would Agatha make her awaken ? Why would she increase a chance where she would be killed by even more powerful being ? You think that just because she would awaken and they would be of the same species she would treat Agatha like sister ? Also it's far from awakening, when Galatea would be defensless and Agatha occupied with awakening her, killing Galatea would be even easier, lol.
I disagree, Agatha isn't trying to kill the Claymores specifically, and she is totally static. (...)
She isn't static, she's using her tentacles quite well, not her fault Galatea and Miata are fighting within her range (which is humongous BTW). She's so static that she cut off Galateas arm and injured Miata. Anything else ?
Uh, how in hell is this an argument in favour of Clarice stupidity?
Read the whole thing and don't cut it to 3 parts changing context. I see I have to write everything literally or you won't understand. Clarice made Miata attack even though she had a chance (thanks to Aghata) to know Galatea's abilities first. She wasted good opportunity. Galatea saw Dauffs abilites before she attacked him and (big difference) she excels at sensing youki but Clare for example didn't have such luxury. Clarice doesn't have such abilites but she was lucky and could have used Agatha as measurement. If you can't see why this case is special, then I have no more questions.
What would you want Clarice to do, tell Miata to sit back and observe the enemy facing them doing nothing? "Look, if you stare long enough, you will be able to pierce through the pills' effect and not only read her powerlevel but her secret moves and her intentions"Galatea would fight Agatha even if Miata didn't help her, that was the reason she escaped from the place they first met (I will write this especially for you so you would understand - this indicates she wanted to fight AB) so sooner or later she would exhaust herself and that's when Miata could come in. Miata should only keep Galatea at place and in case Agatha attacked her, defend herself and Clarice.

Flar

2008-01-02, 13:11

Ok, if that's what You're saying then she assumed Miata won't be attacked (which would be stupid), she could wait but didn't. She didn't adapt to new situation (when Agatha appeared) but sticked to her plan MiB told her. Don't You think it's obvious Miata might get hurt by AB ?First thing first, she did not send Miata while Galatea was in combat with Agatha. Miata was already fighting Galatea at this time. What she did was not recall Miata when Agatha appeared. She indeed stuck to her mission, but to me that doesn't prove stupidity, or at least just the one that all soldiers share. Not like she followed a step by step walkthrough instead of vague instructions to follow Miata and bring back Galatea's head.

I don't think it's obvious, no. If I am in a fight and someone I don't like comes and helps me, I won't punch him in the face, at least not before we dispatched the first opponent. It's only common sense.

Teresa held contempt? She may have acted with contempt, but she spent her life protecting them. Teresa talked a tough game, but there's never a record of her letting a Yoma walk. It's pretty clear that she did what she felt best and pretty clear that she had a sense of justice.True, and she only went to village that paid the org, threatened villagers that did pay, did not care what humans did to her, hurt little mute girls and ended up killing humans herself, saying that they were lower than Yomas and feeling no guilt. After her rebellion, she was genuinely surprised at the reaction the first time she killed a Yoma for free, and surprised Irene by not killing a young Claymore. She also was intelligent enough to know what the org was about and be snarky about it, yet followed orders, until Clare. Sorry to say, all that spells ruthless bastard to me, and I'm not really convinced Miss T was the incarnation of justice.

Claymore are people trained and raised to kill Yoma frequently chosen for their motivation to kill Yoma, e.g. orphaned by Yoma. They don't reap monetary rewards and they don't seem particularly subject to conditioning, given the nature of their work: independent and solitary.First part is true, but I disagree with second part. Their training mixed with their past is a strong conditioning. There isn't a single Claymore who went against the org unless she witnessed something really shocking. Even with their superhuman powers, it is expected of them to never hurt a human, never rebel against the org and actually suicide if the org says so. The crime of leaving the org is seen as something akin to siding with Yomas for fresh recruits like Priscilla or Clarice.

Most of all, be it in their experience or in their training, there is nothing about *protecting* humans. What they are taught is killing Yomas, what they experience is rejection and hostility, culminating in indirect murders through exile, by humans. It warranted the absolute rule that they would not kill any human. It's a miracle most of them are not like Ophelia.

Note that even Clare wasn't above doing things like using Raki as bait for a simple Yoma, or letting a yoma have his fun with a young girl if Miria had been slower. The obvious focus is kill, not protect.

Find me a battle hardened Claymore who would not go after Agatha, who would even consider Clarice's choice. Even Ophelia would tell them to stuff it. Their fate, their training, their raison d'etre all point to stopping the AB.Clare. She was faced with an AB, and would have to fight Ophelia after that, just like Miata+Clarice. She ran.

Irene. Faced Priscilla, saw it was useless, ran away.

Raphaella, Lune. Witnessed Pieta. Would have killed "deserters".

Miria. Came up with a way to run away from an hopeless situation in Pieta. Would not have followed her "raison d'être" without fear for the life of her group at the hands of Raphaella.

Helen. Asked "who are we even saving, the AB or the Claymores?", and wasn't joking.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-02, 13:33

Clare. She was faced with an AB, and would have to fight Ophelia after that, just like Miata+Clarice. She ran.

Irene. Faced Priscilla, saw it was useless, ran away.

Raphaella, Lune. Witnessed Pieta. Would have killed "deserters".

Miria. Came up with a way to run away from an hopeless situation in Pieta. Would not have followed her "raison d'être" without fear for the life of her group at the hands of Raphaella.

Helen. Asked "who are we even saving, the AB or the Claymores?", and wasn't joking.

Clare ran to protect Raki and against overwhelming odds and where there were no other innocents. Not analagous and in fact in line with their reason for existing: protecting life by stopping Yoma.

Irene did not run away. She got clonked and Priscilla ran away. (I'll need to double check that) Then she left the org, which says nothing about whether she would let ABs run rampant.

Wrong on Miria. They evacuated the town first. What they would have done is open to debate; what they did was evacuate and save. And they fought too.

Helen, not analagous as innocents were not involved. Helen's comment is more an indictment on the org than on Claymore. And she was joking.

The raison d'etre is protecting life not just killing Yoma.

Raphaella has issues but she went so far as to stop her sister; I gotta think she would stop Agatha, too. But that's a close one if she did end up killing an armless Irene.

Flar

2008-01-02, 13:53

I see I have to change my tone.Well, as I said, you won't convince me by repeating yourself, but I have to point that insulting me won't work either.

As we've seen she circles around Agatha so sooner or later she would come across Clarice.Galatea being inept enough to not sense a weak enemy and just jump in her reach. Well, ok, I always though Galatea was overrated in both intelligence and sensing anyway.

it would suffice that Miata would stall Galatea for a moment and Clarice would have her chanceIsn't it one of your arguments that staying out of a fight and jumping in when your target is exhausted is the more intelligent thing to do? Why again would it be stupid for Clarice to do exactly that?

And your awakening theory is stupid, why would Agatha make her awaken ? Why would she increase a chance where she would be killed by even more powerful being ? You think that just because she would awaken and they would be of the same species she would treat Agatha like sister ? Also it's far from awakening, when Galatea would be defensless and Agatha occupied with awakening her, killing Galatea would be even easier, lol.Well, I guess you never read a chapter with Riful. Only then could you ask such questions.
Also, one is not necessarily defenseless when awakening, it just happens when Yoki goes over the limit. Clare wasn't defenseless the three times she did it, neither was Priscilla, or Miria, or Alicia...

She isn't static, she's using her tentacles quite well, not her fault Galatea and Miata are fighting within her range (which is humongous BTW). She's so static that she cut off Galateas arm and injured Miata. Anything else ?Of course, but what happens when you're not in range? It's not like an uninjured Miata (which was the plan) could not dodge some attacks and walk away. And not like Clarice and the pikemen were harmed, even though they are just near. Maybe I didn't use the right word, I meant she wasn't really mobile, like a Ligardes.

Read the whole thing and don't cut it to 3 parts changing context.Don't put sentences that have nothing to do with the rest of the paragraph and make sense and I won't.

Clarice made Miata attack even though she had a chance (thanks to Aghata) to know Galatea's abilities first.Are you reading the same chapters? She made her attack before Agatha appeared. Miata going wild was the trigger for Agatha. It was too late.

Galatea would fight Agatha even if Miata didn't help her, that was the reason she escaped from the place they first met [...] Miata should only keep Galatea at place and in case Agatha attacked her, defend herself and Clarice.That's the best choice, but I already gave reasons why not recalling Miata is reasonable.

Again: not the best is not equivalent with bad.

Also, Get off your high horse, I perfectly understood the first time.

Subject closed as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome your interpretation of facts, but I disagree with them and won't keep discussing it with you.

Flar

2008-01-02, 14:14

Irene did not run away. She got clonked and Priscilla ran away. (I'll need to double check that) Then she left the org, which says nothing about whether she would let ABs run rampant.Based on this sentence, I think there is a misunderstanding here. When I think of Clarice' situation, I consider that Agatha is invincible to her (that's how she sees it), and that the question was whether or not a Claymore would fight under hopeless odds.

Galatea does it. She lost an arm but fights on. Irene didn't do it, she lost an arm and went away, leaving Clare.

Nevertheless, even if circumstances in my examples are not completely analogous, I maintain that they show a possibility for the Claymores I mentioned to behave like Clarice; It's all very hypothetical of course.

In the end, as I said before, I think that Clarice just doesn't have the courage, the experience and the self-confidence to stand for herself, and instead follows her orders.

Gooral

2008-01-02, 14:18

I have to point that insulting me won't work either.
I didn't start insulting part. My aggressive reply was triggered by Your ostentatious and deriding tone.
Isn't it one of your arguments that staying out of a fight and jumping in when your target is exhausted is the more intelligent thing to do? Why again would it be stupid for Clarice to do exactly that?
This argument was reffering to your previous reply on my previous post:
If she only cared about accomplishing her goal then why not get into action and increase chances of killing Galatea. Having 3 opponents, even if one of them would be just a decoy wouldn't be that bad.
You replied:
She is way more useful in the rear, to have a global picture and the ability to issue commands to Miata according to this.
It was all in context she wanted to accomplish her goal no matter what.
Well, I guess you never read a chapter with Riful. Only then could you ask such questions.
Huh ? You're comparing Riful to Agatha ? Riful wanted powerful allies, Agatha didn't want more powerful adversaries. Your brilliance strikes me.
Also, one is not necessarily defenseless when awakening, it just happens when Yoki goes over the limit. Clare wasn't defenseless the three times she did it, neither was Priscilla, or Miria, or Alicia...
What I meant was that Agatha could only make Galatea awaken by restraining her and torturing her which would take quite some time. You're jumping to ridiculous conclusions. You think Galatea would allow herself to awaken if she wasn't extremely weakened ? Start thinking more.

Are you reading the same chapters? She made her attack before Agatha. Miata going wild was the trigger for Agatha. It was too late.
No it wasn't, at least you don't know that. Clarice didn't even try to stop Miata.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-02, 15:11

In the end, as I said before, I think that Clarice just doesn't have the courage, the experience and the self-confidence to stand for herself, and instead follows her orders.

Hmmm...we may be in agreement here. Could we say that the base value system of a normative (not Ophelia-like) Claymore would be protecting life, hunting Yoma and AB? Whether to fight under hopeless odds is a real question. How do we define hopeless? Would Galatea really have fought if it was hopeless? There's always the lucky shot--ugh priscilla.

My problem with others behaving like Clarice is this specific situation. It is not hopeless (and I think it is a rationalization on Clarice's part based on fear--but that is admittedly my surmise) There are innocents involved and a very real prospect of a catastrophe. Finally, the traitor sued for help.

The crux is the murders ongoing That makes it tough to excuse when people's heads are getting ripped off. I'm trying to think of a time a Claymore ran away while a Yoma or AB slaughtered an innocent before them and continued to murder. She did not act when she could have prevented mass murder.

Now, it really is too late, btw. Miata and Gal are well below par and afaik Aggi is still fresh. The choice remains only to fight. I cannot imagine Aggie letting Clarice live.

It's a real mess, but the situation served the spiritual dimension of the story which reached its climax in 76. The rest is the results of the choices now. I see no need for a deus ex machina here. Aggie should win the physical fight, because sometimes when good fails to work together, evil wins.

DarkBlood

2008-01-02, 15:19

I really didn't understand thi chapter.
Wth happened to Miata?
And I kind of disliked this chapter 'cause of all the boring talking. It wasn't anything interesting in this chapter.

Flar

2008-01-02, 15:59

Hmmm...we may be in agreement here. Could we say that the base value system of a normative (not Ophelia-like) Claymore would be protecting life, hunting Yoma and AB? I guess we agree basically. I would argue that it would be more Obey the org, kill Yoma and ABs and prevent them from decimating villages that paid, but in practice it makes no real difference from your doctrine.

She did not act when she could have prevented mass murder.I agree mostly except with this, just because the situation is highly subjective. Since from Clarice PoV she cannot win against Agatha then it naturally follows that she cannot prevent mass murder.

Starting from this observation, it is easy to then construct a scenario where the situation where you save the most lives it the one where you call for reinforcements the fastest you can, within the bounds of your mission.

I really didn't understand thi chapter.
Wth happened to Miata?I assume it wasn't a satirical post. So to sum things up:

Miata continues to attack Galatea. Galatea gets hurt more and more. Clarice does nothing except autosuggestion that she did the right thing. Humans fight against all odds, fail, but maybe shake Clarice's rationalization. Agatha lets slip that cutting her hair would kill her. Miata weakens, and everyone notices in the end that Agatha has hurt Miata without anyone noticing.

Oh, and Clarice looks sexy when surprised.

In other words: nothing happens, to be continued.

Anh_Minh

2008-01-02, 16:18

Re: what Theresa would have done.
She'd have named her price, the townsfolk would have accepted, and she'd have killed Agatha.

Re: Clarice's choice.

Definitely suboptimal compared to retreating a bit and seeing what Galatea does. It's not like Miata was going to lose her scent.

The argument about Galatea's awakening isn't bad, but she could have just observed and launched Miata if things were starting to take that direction.

And considering Agatha like an ally? Definitely dumb. Agatha is both the strongest and the least likely to be merciful. That means that even if Miata succeeds in killing Galatea, she has to be in good enough condition to run away afterwards. Or hope that Agatha will just let them go, a dubious proposition at best.

Yes, the fight had been joined before Agatha's arrival. Recognizing a change in the situation and adapting to it would have been a sign of intelligence, but Clarice completely missed the opportunity. Even if she doesn't care about the humans, she should have prioritized Miata's survival.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-02, 17:01

I agree mostly except with this, just because the situation is highly subjective. Since from Clarice PoV she cannot win against Agatha then it naturally follows that she cannot prevent mass murder.

The interesting ethics on this is that Clarice is culpable for her failure of self confidence here. Moreso if it is founded in fear and not some quantitative measurement from yoki sensing. People who are trained to act in these situations get sentenced to death for failing to act. It can be called dereliction of duty when someone fails to do a positive action, but like the concentration camp guards, society will sentence you to death for failing to act or enabling a crime against humanity.

Clarise's culpability extends even further, since she openly aided the AB by attacking Galatea, the city's defender. History will not judge the Org kindly if this fiasco plays out with survivors who tell the tale. So many interesting outcomes...

I don't think the Org is immune from punishment. Countries can be pretty determined and very sneaky if you hack them off by allowing giant ABs to devour their cities. How many ninjas does it take to kill Rubel? or how much gold does it take to lure Rubel away and start the Rabona Claymore program?

Yorae_paladin1

2008-01-02, 17:20

The interesting ethics on this is that Clarice is culpable for her failure of self confidence here. Moreso if it is founded in fear and not some quantitative measurement from yoki sensing. People who are trained to act in these situations get sentenced to death for failing to act. It can be called dereliction of duty when someone fails to do a positive action, but like the concentration camp guards, society will sentence you to death for failing to act or enabling a crime against humanity.

Clarise's culpability extends even further, since she openly aided the AB by attacking Galatea, the city's defender. History will not judge the Org kindly if this fiasco plays out with survivors who tell the tale. So many interesting outcomes...

I don't think the Org is immune from punishment. Countries can be pretty determined and very sneaky if you hack them off by allowing giant ABs to devour their cities. How many ninjas does it take to kill Rubel? or how much gold does it take to lure Rubel away and start the Rabona Claymore program?

I already have posted this will be a PR nightmare for the org. They better hope the city is completely destroyed and no survivors otherwise this is gonna spread to other human settlements.

Claymore_Obsessed

2008-01-02, 17:26

Clarise's culpability extends even further, since she openly aided the AB by attacking Galatea, the city's defender. History will not judge the Org kindly if this fiasco plays out with survivors who tell the tale. So many interesting outcomes...

I don't think the Org is immune from punishment. Countries can be pretty determined and very sneaky if you hack them off by allowing giant ABs to devour their cities. How many ninjas does it take to kill Rubel? or how much gold does it take to lure Rubel away and start the Rabona Claymore program?

I'd say that retaliation against the org is almost impossible for any country or city... expecially after they are pounded by ABs...
Rubel's power is unknown, but I'd say he would have no problem disposing any human opponent.
Starting an alternate Claymore program could be an option if done independently... Rubel probably is already uber-rich, has lots of power, so corrupting him it's not an easy task..:heh:

by the way, would the (unlikely) survivors be believed? and even so, people still need the Org even if they understand they are evil bastards...

Anima

2008-01-02, 17:29

I don't see why there is that believe that getting beat would mean awakening. It's possible but we've only seen it twice in the case of Katea & Jean who were put in a very difficult situation. But in other situations like the Pieta fight or the fight against the male awakened being, claymores were badly injured yet they didn't awaken.

Now, I don't think Galatea would awaken unless she was put in a similar situation as Katea was put in in the Witch's Maw but it's unlikely. But someone as unstable as Miata could awaken at any moment.

Now, I'd blindly guess that Miata would actually awaken and add to the trouble so they become 2 ABs but then who might come for help? Rafaela or our girls? Personally, I think Rafaela is saved for a bigger event so the fab 7 would come so we can see how they fare now against the 2 ABs. And I'd also guess that Galatea wont survive this fight. We've seen Yogi killing chars in a very fast paced turn of events (e.g. Teresa, Ophelia) so I wont be surprised if he killed Galatea.

Yorae_paladin1

2008-01-02, 18:26

I'd say that retaliation against the org is almost impossible for any country or city... expecially after they are pounded by ABs...
Rubel's power is unknown, but I'd say he would have no problem disposing any human opponent.
Starting an alternate Claymore program could be an option if done independently... Rubel probably is already uber-rich, has lots of power, so corrupting him it's not an easy task..:heh:

by the way, would the (unlikely) survivors be believed? and even so, people still need the Org even if they understand they are evil bastards...

If that is the case and they still hire the org then the humans(although they do not deserve to be called that if they still hire the org) who do hire the org still after learning the truth deserve to be food for yoma for not being capable of fending for themselves.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-02, 18:29

I'd say that retaliation against the org is almost impossible for any country or city... expecially after they are pounded by ABs...
Rubel's power is unknown, but I'd say he would have no problem disposing any human opponent.
Starting an alternate Claymore program could be an option if done independently... Rubel probably is already uber-rich, has lots of power, so corrupting him it's not an easy task..:heh:

by the way, would the (unlikely) survivors be believed? and even so, people still need the Org even if they understand they are evil bastards...

If Rubel is uber rich why is he skulking around the woods talking to Clare? It's on horse or by foot so that travelling has to be a drag. If I were Rubel and uber rich I'd have Claymore hottie bodygaurds and servants, "Oh, Miria! Another 5 shrimp cocktails please. And phantom step down to the store for a pint of haagen-daaz" @.@

Those guys are uber weird though, so you might very well be right.

I think they'd be believed cause I think they have a sketchy rep already, being hired guns who use silver eyed witches. I think a PR disaster would make some countries and lands consider alternatives.

stringer13

2008-01-02, 20:01

Negativedark

2008-01-02, 21:44

Did a chapter summery and review on my blog
http://negadarkwingswhateverreviews.blogspot.com/

One thing to remember is that in the Claymore world right now there is only one way to get rid of Yoma. The Organization's Claymores. As we have seen there's no other way to deal with even normal Yoma, much less awakened. Maybe that's why the org's so gung-ho about hunting down rouge Claymores. They don't want competition, especially Pro Bono competition.

redmeat

2008-01-03, 01:49

Now I'm beginning to have the feeling that once I've read about a dozen Claymore chapters, I've read every Claymore chapter. I hope this feeling disappears soon. Anyway, I bet that in the next scene, there's going to be a free Willy en masse by the Rabona's guards against Agatha.

Rubel and other MIB can teleport, thus avoiding danger easily. The org's headquarters is protected by a one-way Yoki shield that prevents Yomas from getting in. In the same way the org is training Claymores, they are also training Yomas to hunt and fight. It's a form of entertainment for the org. Isley's arrival was already preplanned by the Org. Priscilla's awakening was also preplanned. Everything was preplanned...

Sci-Fi

2008-01-03, 03:43

Seems there is a bit of contradiction with the Org's rules. Claymore's are supposed to kill any yoma they encounter, like C&M did when they were looking for Galatea, and protect humans (with payment if services are requested). Why would an AB be any different? Wouldn't the Org blame the deaths of humans on C&M anyways and order their execution? Teresa said just as much if she left an unconscious Chibi Clare to possibly die.

As far as tactics, Clarice should have pulled back with Miata to a safe distance and let Agatha take out Galatea as soon as Agatha appeared. There's no need to risk fighting both and getting injured or killed. Could have just kicked back and watched. If Galatea was killed, then mission accomplished and leave. Rabona would have to ask (and pay) the Org for help to get rid of Agatha. Clarice assumes the Org will send a force strong enough to kill Agatha once she reports back. That's pretty naive thinking and too idealistic.

Too early for the Ghost 7 to show up...at least not with the current "Loose Lips Clarice" around. She doesn't appear to have the honor code other Claymores have if they are "saved". That leaves Riful, who has been looking for Galatea, or Isley and company if they are in the neighborhood. Agatha smartly let Miata beat up Galatea while cutting her up, so even if they team up, their combined strength are no match for her. Clarice appears to have no special powers to turn the tide. Best bet is to either pull back, tend to their wounds, and watch from a safe distance or leave and get more support. It is also unlikely that Agatha will let them get away to report anything to the Org. I suspect the Org knows Agatha is in Ramona and could be monitoring the situation with their latest "eye".

But anything can happen at this point. Clarice may end up being the Ghost 7's inside man, passing on intel whenever possible. The Org wouldn't suspect her and with Miata by her side, they wouldn't mess with her either. It all depends how this fight unfolds and what decisions or revelations changes Clarice's view about the Org. Would be funny if Clarice gets killed and Miata attaches herself to Clare...similar name and all.

Flar

2008-01-03, 04:25

Seems there is a bit of contradiction with the Org's rules. Claymore's are supposed to kill any yoma they encounter, like C&M did when they were looking for Galatea, and protect humans (with payment if services are requested). Why would an AB be any different? Because -according to Clarice- they cannot beat Agatha. It's like blaming Galatea for not killing Duff and Riful, Miria for not killing Isley, or Irene for not killing Priscilla.

Now as we discussed upthread, the problem lies in that Clarice's action can be seen as detrimental to humans and that she could be prosecuted for not helping people in need, but she still has a good defense if she can prove that sacrificing Miata would have been futile, since humans rushed to their death anyway, and Agatha was invincible. It's in the eye of the beholder. YMMV

Too early for the Ghost 7 to show up...at least not with the current "Loose Lips Clarice" around. [...]
But anything can happen at this point. Clarice may end up being the Ghost 7's inside man, passing on intel whenever possible.I'm not sure about that. Clarice + Miata together are awfully like Priscilla in their inexperience, fanatism and power. It would be interesting to have Clarice take on the role of the ghost seven archenemy in the org, and be present at the final confrontation between Priscilla and the others to make Priscilla realize/remember how fanaticism can be bad. It would also be quite sweet to have someone a bit "gray" morally in this manga and not the usual pure white good against pitch black evil. As it is unfolding, Galatea will die anyhow, so she may as well do it in a meaningful way at Clarice's hand, and make her the antagonist that way. Just a thought.

I suspect the Org knows Agatha is in Ramona and could be monitoring the situation with their latest "eye".Not possible. They didn't know where Galatea was and that was the reason they sent Miata, and Galatea would have sensed any eye getting close to the city.

FateAnomaly

2008-01-03, 09:00

The org don't care if they help humans or not. The only rule is that they cannot kill them. They fought with the yoma and AB they encounter along the way because they were attacked. (Probably because they thought they were humans or weak since they are on pills)

Newhope

2008-01-03, 09:24

Too early for the Ghost 7 to show up...at least not with the current "Loose Lips Clarice" around. [...]
But anything can happen at this point. Clarice may end up being the Ghost 7's inside man, passing on intel whenever possible

I think it will be Clare who shows up sooner or later, Maybe doing a little side trip on her own like she used to do in the north, After all it is a natural place for Clare to start looking for Raki. Clare turning up will cause alot of important events to happen such as her meeting with Clarice and Galatea and showing us how powerful she's become. I really want to see clarice face after the former number 47 pawns a awakened number 2.

I think this whole arc is about clarice and what she will do in the future, I'am not even sure if she would join the ghost yet. As for for her acting as a spy in the Org I think the MIB would sniff her out to fast for her to be any use, she may even be used to spy on the ghosts by the Org which maybe the reason she rebels in the future.

Anh_Minh

2008-01-03, 10:01

Newhope

2008-01-03, 10:12

The problem with anyone joining the ghosts is that they wouldn't have the stealth benefit of not having used youki for years. Except maybe Raphaela, if she's alive.

Clarice may get away with it as her youki is so small but that would mean miata dieing or been dumped by Clarice which wouldn't be a wise thing to do.

Flar

2008-01-03, 10:37

The problem with anyone joining the ghosts is that they wouldn't have the stealth benefit of not having used youki for years. Except maybe Raphaela, if she's alive.

Galatea's sensing ability might be able to compensate, but anyone aside from those two and they suddenly become detectable.Galatea has been supressing her Yoki for as long as the Ghost 7, so in Audrey's words, she should be at the same level of undetectability.

Raphaella and more unlikely Irene, have hidden their own Yoki for far longer so could be even more stealthy, or at least used to it, of course.

This however begs the question: how much time does it take to become stealthy again after Yoki use? Instant, hour, day, year, never? I lean toward near-instant, at most a night of meditation, seeing that Yoki suppression is actually a technique and that it's still possible to sense a Yoki, as Teresa proved, (and Teresa if we posit that yoki pills and yoki suppression trigger the same process). On the other hand, all the stealthy Claymores are really coy about using any Yoki, so as short bursts of power present minimal risks, especially when you're on the move, it might well be a lot longer.

Newhope

2008-01-03, 11:33

This however begs the question: how much time does it take to become stealthy again after Yoki use? Instant, hour, day, year, never? I lean toward near-instant, at most a night of meditation, seeing that Yoki suppression is actually a technique and that it's still possible to sense a Yoki, as Teresa proved, (and Teresa if we posit that yoki pills and yoki suppression trigger the same process). On the other hand, all the stealthy Claymores are really coy about using any Yoki, so as short bursts of power present minimal risks, especially when you're on the move, it might well be a lot longer.

I tend to agree with you.

I think claymore can become stealthy fairly quickly it's staying stealthy for long periods thats the problem.I see youki as been like another sence or limb that claymores use without thinking. Asking them to stop using it would be like asking someone not to blink, it can be done but it takes lots of willpower and concentration to do it but once you lose that concentration you start to blink again without thinking about it , it would more than likely take years for a claymore to stop useing yoki subconscious and become as stealthy as the ghosts or Raphaela, but we already know they can do it for short periods because we saw the fab 4 doing it in the slashers arc.

Valerian Mengsk

2008-01-03, 12:06

There is a problem with that though guys. After Irene had started using her youki again she wasn't able to quickly resuppress it, which allowed Raphela to find her shortly after.

But the problem with my arguement is that Ilena/Irene had been using youki for several weeks training Clare in the use of the Quicksword, so continued youki use probably affects the time it takes to suppress it.

Deathwish

2008-01-03, 13:43

I almost cryed last weekend:upset:i downloaded episode 26 and...there was no more? please dont 26 is the last episode?

Flar

2008-01-03, 14:24

I almost cryed last weekend:upset:i downloaded episode 26 and...there was no more? please dont 26 is the last episode?Yes.

You might have noticed the subtle clue in that thread title below : Episode 26 (END) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=55135)
Also, wrong thread, as indicated by the [manga] in the title, this one is dedicated to the paper version of claymore. You might want to try the TV serie (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=41026) thread.

Some links to sites you might find useful, too: google (http://www.google.com), animenewsnetwork (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=7028), wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore_%28TV_series%29#Anime)

Read the manga.

Claymore_Obsessed

2008-01-03, 14:48

If Rubel is uber rich why is he skulking around the woods talking to Clare? It's on horse or by foot so that travelling has to be a drag. If I were Rubel and uber rich I'd have Claymore hottie bodygaurds and servants, "Oh, Miria! Another 5 shrimp cocktails please. And phantom step down to the store for a pint of haagen-daaz" @.@

Those guys are uber weird though, so you might very well be right.

I think they'd be believed cause I think they have a sketchy rep already, being hired guns who use silver eyed witches. I think a PR disaster would make some countries and lands consider alternatives.

Well, I think Rubel is wealthy, considering that even Clare had a good amount of gold with her(when she left it to Raki)...:heh:

The Org operates for gold, it's a business...they should have good profits.
Maybe Rubel&C. problem is, they don't really have a good way to spend it for personal use (they barely eat, etc). It seems they aren't interested in mundane activites as well... probably their money goes entirely for armor, Claymore training and reasearch and development :heh:

Yes they have a scary rep after all.
But I think, even as of now they basically threaten cities to pay for their services, or else...:heh: and their business is still good. Probably some citizen already think that yoma are sent to their city by the Org themself...
so, I think only something like actual evidence that Agatha was sent by the Org to Rabona (in other words, official declaration of war against Rabona) could be a major scandal...

This however begs the question: how much time does it take to become stealthy again after Yoki use? Instant, hour, day, year, never? I lean toward near-instant, at most a night of meditation, seeing that Yoki suppression is actually a technique and that it's still possible to sense a Yoki, as Teresa proved, (and Teresa if we posit that yoki pills and yoki suppression trigger the same process). On the other hand, all the stealthy Claymores are really coy about using any Yoki, so as short bursts of power present minimal risks, especially when you're on the move, it might well be a lot longer.

I'd say it's near-instant too, the only problem is that after you use yoki you register on the Org's "radar screen" and you are ready to be traced and killed...
unless you travel really far from that place where you used yoki in a really short time...

There is a problem with that though guys. After Irene had started using her youki again she wasn't able to quickly resuppress it, which allowed Raphela to find her shortly after.

But the problem with my arguement is that Ilena/Irene had been using youki for several weeks training Clare in the use of the Quicksword, so continued youki use probably affects the time it takes to suppress it.

Imho it's like that, she was traced because of that training and not because she couldn't resuppress yoki in a short time after the fight... but I don't remember if it was properly explained so I might be wrong :heh:

Anh_Minh

2008-01-03, 15:03

Well, I think Rubel is wealthy, considering that even Clare had a good amount of gold with her(when she left it to Raki)...:heh:

The Org operates for gold, it's a business...they should have good profits.
Maybe Rubel&C. problem is, they don't really have a good way to spend it for personal use (they barely eat, etc). It seems they aren't interested in mundane activites as well... probably their money goes entirely for armor, Claymore training and reasearch and development :heh:
Clare had a lot of spending money, but it's like new clothes or whatever: the org gives her some when they think she might need it. For all we know, that money was given to her when she started working, and she never had an opportunity to spend till she met Raki, so they never gave her more.

As for the org itself - sure, it takes in a lot of money. But it also has a lot of expenses. How many little girls must they buy to get even one warrior? And they have to be fed, taken care of...

I'd say it's near-instant too, the only problem is that after you use yoki you register on the Org's "radar screen" and you are ready to be traced and killed...
unless you travel really far from that place where you used yoki in a really short time...
I think it takes years. That's why they made of point of not having used their yokis for all these years, instead of just the last few weeks or whatever.

Sure, they can suppress their youki fast and become a glimmer instead of a bonfire. But to really disappear, they need time.

FlareKnight

2008-01-04, 02:31

Have to give full props to Galatea on this one for how well she's doing considering the situation she has herself in. Certainly one of those scenarios no one would like to be in. Just wanting to help the people in the city is something those who like her should be proud of. Hopefully things start turning around since it doesn't seem like she can keep that up for too long.

Full credit to the soldiers of Rabona for the effort they have been putting out. This is a terrible situation for them. Agatha is just way too much that even a Galatea and Miata team up may not be able to win especially with the damage they have picked up. Still for the sake of those they care about living in the city they pull everything they can think of even if its useless. Just hope there are some left by the time this situation is over.

Enough has been said on the Clarice front so won't really go into that.

X_Danny_X

2008-01-04, 03:11

i hated this chapter, nothing much changed or happend. i thought for sure Clarice or whatever her name is would of manned up or woma-upped to attack that blasted awakening being and ordered her little child to stop attacking Galatea.

man only 23 pages? last chapter had like 33 pages. i feel cheated.

seems Clarice is like Clare when she was low ranked and sucked. the names are similiar and they look alike too.

stringer13

2008-01-04, 03:51

Valduran

2008-01-04, 04:02

Yeah but Clarice is a lot weaker then Clare. Remember when Clare was fighting Opheilia she could cut down trees with her left hand even though it wasn't her dominant hand? Well when Clarice was fighting Yoma in the forest she couldn't get through one treee with two hands.

Not to mention Clare was never lacking in dignity, intelligence and fortitude :p

NezoR

2008-01-04, 11:08

Yeah but Clarice is a lot weaker then Clare. Remember when Clare was fighting Opheilia she could cut down trees with her left hand even though it wasn't her dominant hand? Well when Clarice was fighting Yoma in the forest she couldn't get through one treee with two hands.

But Clarice is a more interesting character IMO. She's more "human", a lot cuter and has a more interesting personality than that "robot" called Clare. Clarice > Clare.

Devilz911

2008-01-04, 13:31

But Clarice is a more interesting character IMO. She's more "human", a lot cuter and has a more interesting personality than that "robot" called Clare. Clarice > Clare.

I disagree with everything you've just said.

Droplet

2008-01-04, 13:32

Thanks for sharing your opinion. But I'm not sure about the "Clarice > Clare" part.

stringer13

2008-01-04, 13:35

Truw she is a lot cuter but I find Clare more interesting. She started as a weakling but now is one of the strongest characters. However I think Clarice is very interesting also. She's a weakling but she has a great deal of responsivility to deal with such as the crazy warrior she is currently paired with.

Sauzer

2008-01-04, 14:22

Ok my predictions )

As it is now Agatha wins. That is if no one arrives and helps them (I hope they dont) or Miata doesnt awaken (I hope she doesnt).
Agatha already won - Galatea has only one arm and a hole in her stomach + she has been fighting against two opponents for quite a while and has to be tired; Miata has several small holes in her body, wounds everywhere and is loosing her speed and power fast.

Sure Clarice can try to unite everyone (+remaining soldiers) tell Miata to use 10-30% of her Yomi powers (too risky!!! (Miata doesnt even know what "%" is)) and make a daring attack going for Agatha's hair and eventually succeeding.. Unlikely and I wouldnt prefer such a simple conclusion.

I think that Clarice will realy consider retreating. They (Clarice and Miata) will try to escape, while protecting one another from Agatha's tentacles and while she is destracted Galatea attempts to cut Agatha's hair. Fails and is badly injured. Miata uses this chance to complete mama's orders (kills Galatea - sorry) and using her Yoki escapes with Clarice.

Fab 7 aproaches Rabona sensing the AB. Then they sence two claymores escaping from the city - Clare tells everyone to go protect the citizens and herself goes to speak with Clarice and Miata. Clarice asks if org sent her. Quicly tells that there's a dangerous Awakened in there and they (Clarice) have to go to the org to make a report. They part. Later Clare finds out that 2 claymores killed Galatea. Happy end ^^

Sure the ending is quite wild, but it would be far more interesting than just - fab 7 arrive, save everyone, and Clarice realizes that Galatea is good and the organization is bad.

khryoleoz

2008-01-04, 14:29

But Clarice is a more interesting character IMO. She's more "human", a lot cuter and has a more interesting personality than that "robot" called Clare. Clarice > Clare.
Aesthetic values are not based on objective standards, so one may find Clarice cuter. But I don't know how you can hold that particular view about Clare having a less interesting and more robotic personality. Clare shows a range of emotions that are strong and profoundly human. She loves, is motivated by vengeance, is a hot head, tends to run wild, and has a lot of power under the hood. These makes her less interesting? When was vengeance and wrath ever associated with a robotic personality?

I also don't like this comparison between the two just because they're both rank 47. We don't know what powers Clarice, but we know Clare has the most powerful Claymore ever powering her up.

Claymore_Obsessed

2008-01-04, 15:57

[QUOTE=Sauzer;1327164]Fab 7 aproaches Rabona sensing the AB. Then they sence two claymores escaping from the city - Clare tells everyone to go protect the citizens and herself goes to speak with Clarice and Miata. Clarice asks if org sent her. Quicly tells that there's a dangerous Awakened in there and they (Clarice) have to go to the org to make a report. They part. Later Clare finds out that 2 claymores killed Galatea. Happy end ^^/QUOTE]

Doesn't look so happy to me, considering that Clarice and Miata live while Galatea dies :heh:
By the way, how can Clare be sure that Clarice won't tell about the Fab 7 to the Org?
Clarice wouldn't probably keep it secret... :uhoh:

As of now, I'm almost tempted to wish for Galatea to awaken and kick everyone's ass, Clarice Miata and Agatha... :heh:

Flar

2008-01-04, 17:03

By the way, how can Clare be sure that Clarice won't tell about the Fab 7 to the Org?The Ghost 7 don't care about that anymore. Audrey saw them already. They just have to bet on mobility, speed and stealth. Who cares if a weakling sees them now? It's not like they are hiding in the north anymore.

I also don't like this comparison between the two just because they're both rank 47. We don't know what powers Clarice, but we know Clare has the most powerful Claymore ever powering her up.Why not? Although a power level comparison is a bit ridiculous at this point, I tend to agree that Clarice is designed to be cuter and more human. I think it's because Clare feels a bit flat, she has no personality weaknesses, doesn't speak much and is almost almost always in her silent yet angry autist badass mode. Even the liking she took to Raki feels forced. On the other hand you have Clarice, who, in a relatively low number of pages shows she has weaknesses but also strengths, has good intentions, but can make mistakes, so her personality emerges from her imperfections.

I suppose I can relate more to someone being surprised, embarassed, misunderstanding people, panicking, clinging to her mission like a lifeline, and actually talking and showing emotions, like Clarice than to a sort of terminator showing no expression and attacking anything head on. This is also why Helen is the most important character in the ghost 7 imho, from a storytelling point of view, because without her the group is emotionaly dead -she does it much better than Raki too-.

All this imho and YMMV, of course.

Sauzer

2008-01-04, 17:53

By the way, how can Clare be sure that Clarice won't tell about the Fab 7 to the Org?
Clarice wouldn't probably keep it secret... :uhoh:

Well she doesnt know who the fab 7 are or how they look, so she wont even know its them. Besides the org should know already from Audrey (the claymore who fab7 saved from Riful).

stringer13

2008-01-04, 17:53

where's Clarice's strength? She's physicallly weak and bad at leading number 4.

Gavrielo

2008-01-04, 18:00

Valduran

2008-01-04, 20:27

Why not? Although a power level comparison is a bit ridiculous at this point, I tend to agree that Clarice is designed to be cuter and more human. I think it's because Clare feels a bit flat, she has no personality weaknesses, doesn't speak much and is almost almost always in her silent yet angry autist badass mode. Even the liking she took to Raki feels forced. On the other hand you have Clarice, who, in a relatively low number of pages shows she has weaknesses but also strengths, has good intentions, but can make mistakes, so her personality emerges from her imperfections.

I suppose I can relate more to someone being surprised, embarassed, misunderstanding people, panicking, clinging to her mission like a lifeline, and actually talking and showing emotions, like Clarice than to a sort of terminator showing no expression and attacking anything head on. This is also why Helen is the most important character in the ghost 7 imho, from a storytelling point of view, because without her the group is emotionaly dead -she does it much better than Raki too-.

All this imho and YMMV, of course.

Clare isn't exactly an expressionless terminator. (But I can't blame you for thinking so if the final episodes of the anime are stuck in your head)

She is very human in that she is the type who keeps everything locked inside until something very powerful forces her emotions to the surface. There is nothing flat about her really, she just doesn't wear her emotions on her sleeve all the time.

And being hot-headed is most certainly a personality weakness! She doesn't have any real human-like weaknesses of character, but with a past like hers you wouldn't exactly EXPECT her to have the same flaws as normal people.
Though I do agree that her caring for Raki feels forced...and more than a bit.

However, if you are looking for characters that act human, you are looking in the wrong place. Claymores have their humanity locked away deep inside, so the emotion and sympathy you feel from this is on a different frequency. It comes from a full understanding of who they are, what they've lost, and what drives them onward.
It really connects with me on a far deeper level than any amount of emotional grandstanding that is normally common in most dramatic anime/manga.

We haven't seen a single major Claymore who is emotionally dead, you just have to know how to look.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-04, 21:08

Clare isn't exactly an expressionless terminator. (But I can't blame you for thinking so if the final episodes of the anime are stuck in your head)

She is very human in that she is the type who keeps everything locked inside until something very powerful forces her emotions to the surface. There is nothing flat about her really, she just doesn't wear her emotions on her sleeve all the time.

And being hot-headed is most certainly a personality weakness! She doesn't have any real human-like weaknesses of character, but with a past like hers you wouldn't exactly EXPECT her to have the same flaws as normal people.
Though I do agree that her caring for Raki feels forced...and more than a bit.

However, if you are looking for characters that act human, you are looking in the wrong place. Claymores have their humanity locked away deep inside, so the emotion and sympathy you feel from this is on a different frequency. It comes from a full understanding of who they are, what they've lost, and what drives them onward.
It really connects with me on a far deeper level than any amount of emotional grandstanding that is normally common in most dramatic anime/manga.

We haven't seen a single major Claymore who is emotionally dead, you just have to know how to look.

That's an insightful post. It may also follow that Clarice despite aiding Agatha in brutal mass murder by siccing her dog on the one major defender, Galatea, evokes so much sympoathy because she is so much less a Claymore and more human in reactions that she elicits that social recognition and pity in readers.

I totally agree with the intellectual understanding (pairing with the emotional resonance that comes when one really intellectually considers what these Claymore go through) leading to a very deep emotional appreciation of these unique and valorous Claymore and even pity for the ones who crack up, Ophelia, against the hard experiences of their supernatural lives.

stringer13

2008-01-04, 21:11

:frustrated:I don't pity Priscilla that's for sure.

Valduran

2008-01-04, 21:16

You got it exactly Siegzon. ^^

I found Ophelia to be mostly just fun and amusing at first, but she actually evoked quite a bit of sympathy in me once I understood her.

For Priscilla: She killed our beloved Teresa. :( No pity. No mercy. No tears! :frustrated:

Negativedark

2008-01-04, 22:11

My predictions for how this arc will end

The seven Ghosts show up, but are bieng ovewhelmed. Claire decides she has no choice but to use "that"
Clarice "What is she doing?"
Yuma "Claire has surpased Claymore and Awakened Bieng. She has become a Super Claymore!"
cut to Rubel
Rubel "Lune, what's her Youki rating?"
Lune "It's over 9000!"

Or at the end of the arc, after Claris has come to her senses, Galetea has left, and Sid Galk are seeing Claris and Maita off, when Maita pushes Claris into Galk and says-
Maita "Momma, he smells good, and I want a baby brother or sister. NOW!" Everyone laughs, and we go to a freeze frame for the episode credits.

FateAnomaly

2008-01-04, 22:30

My guess is the 7 will arrive, join forces with Galatea, Clarice and Miata. They defeat Agatha. Rabona become the yoma, AB, org resistance HQ and they start recruiting ex-claymores. :D:heh:

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-04, 22:59

I was checking the last encounter between Galatea and Clare after the Duph fight and there sure was a whole lot of foreshadow talk:

Galatea:I don't know if we'll be enemies or allies next time we meet, but do try to stay alive until then.

Clare (possibly Jean; the balloon is just against a background): Let's meet again, Galatea

Galatea: Yeah, it's a promise.

Basically an entire page was given to foreshadowing a reunion. This creator is a pretty deep thinker, I don't know if a whole page would be wasted like that . . . (Hey, I'm lookin for reasons for Galatea to survive. I'm reachin' here!)

Valduran

2008-01-04, 23:07

stringer13

2008-01-04, 23:34

I have to agree. If she was really going to die I think the author would wait awhile to bring her back into the story instead of a few chapters after the survivors of the war. There would be no point of killing her off unless Clare is there.

And I'd just like to point out to the people who want Raphalea to be alive and join forces with the fab 4 that she probally is alive but not going to be joining forces. Clare would probally be angry that she killed Irene if Irene actually is dead. Just wanted to get that off my mind. I've been thinking about it for awhile.:D

cajunman380

2008-01-05, 01:21

But Jean died.

Jean Lived her life as a samuri with a "code of honor". she also said to clare that "this life belongs to you". she carried the feeling that she died back when she awakened and clare gave her that second chance. She pretty much put herself in harms way just to find a way to pay back clare for her kindness. She also didnt have any real faults as well. SHe was a pretty straightforward character and even though she died, she did it fufilling what she wanted to do and save clare in the process. To make a long story short, you can sort of tell from the beginning that she had the death card dangling in front of her and that she would pass soon.

And remember Flora? "Let's all survive this fight together no matter what."

I dont think Flora said that if your referring to the flashback scene (I may be wrong but im pretty sure). It was more like a pray for victory for as many as can survive. Lets face it, while Flora was beautiful, she didnt really have much depth and served only to give clare added fuel to face rigardes and not to mention give her a weapon to use during those seven years.
Yes she was brutally killed but she was introduced like no more than 4 or 5 chapters ago?

But I don't really get the "Galatea is about to die" feeling here. It seems like she has alot more left to do before she is allowed to die, and I doubt she would be reintroduced like this just to be killed off right away.

i agree especially since she believes it herself from her manner of speech. I would love to see the look on her face when the fab 7 come and the priest who she said farewell to recognizes clare. She also has the uncanny purpose of being the first claymor eto live a normal life. She also has soul link knowledge and she had male kid protection and you know what that means (raki?). Not to mention that she is freakin hot in that nun outfit an dthta killing her just means another victory for th eorg which is geting old now and really it serves no purpose.

There is even a slight sense that she is actually important to the plot.
On the same level as Helen, Miria, and deneve ....yes.

And I'd just like to point out to the people who want Raphalea to be alive and join forces with the fab 4 that she probally is alive but not going to be joining forces. Clare would probally be angry that she killed Irene if Irene actually is dead. Just wanted to get that off my mind. I've been thinking about it for awhile.

Yeah im beginning to think the author intentionally left that scene like that in order to determine what raphaelas future will be. Her inductance into the fab 7 definately depends on irenes fate.

Valduran

2008-01-05, 01:37

That exact quote of Flora was from the anime, but she said something very similar after dueling Clare in the manga.

I was just pointing out that it's quite common for someone to promise to survive in Claymore and then die.

Teresa also. ^^

Anh_Minh

2008-01-05, 03:25

I don't think Galatea's going to die before meeting Clare again. She's like a Chekhov's gun that hasn't been fired yet.

It is, however, possible for the Lucky 7 to come to the rescue, and for Galatea to die at the end of the fight.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-01-05, 04:13

Not to mention Clare was never lacking in dignity, intelligence and fortitude :p

I would question intelligence, and add in lack of control for Clare, she did rash and stupid things all the time, Clarice and her actually contrast quite well.

Both were weak, but Clare was hot-headed, was a trouble maker, stubborn, was nearly fearless, thought with her heart instead of her head, and is on a quest for vengeance, one that could be seen as hopeless.

Clarice is even weaker then Clare, has confidence issues (probably from being considered a failure by everyone she meets), is not a hot-head, is loyal to the ORG, thinks with her head instead of her heart (but that has its disadvantages with someone as inexperienced as her, as we are now seeing.)

Clare is a product of her past in every way, her vendetta against Priscilla is what drove her to be the way she is. She probably disliked the Organization right from the get-go, and the Organization certainly did not give her any reason to trust her.

Clarice she has no such driving force (as far as we know) and is a product of the Organization, with none of the baggage Clare or the other fab 4 has, she is the product of several years of Organization training, and it shows.

Gooral

2008-01-05, 04:13

(...)I tend to agree that Clarice is designed to be cuter and more human. I think it's because Clare feels a bit flat, she has no personality weaknesses, doesn't speak much and is almost almost always in her silent yet angry autist badass mode. Even the liking she took to Raki feels forced. On the other hand you have Clarice, who, in a relatively low number of pages shows she has weaknesses but also strengths, has good intentions, but can make mistakes, so her personality emerges from her imperfections.(...)
While Clare hasn't shown personality weaknesses (not doesn't have) Clarice has too many and it's not more human-like but more retarded-human-like. Clare is just fit for battle and doesn't have flaws (besides her reaction on Priscilla name) in that domain. We didn't see her in normal (i.e. daily life when she doesn't need her sword) situations so "she has no personality weaknesses" statement is just Your thesis.
One of the reasons why Clarice was introduced might be author's intention to show how much better warrior Clare was. When Clarice talks, Clare takes action, You think it's inhuman ? I think it's very man-like (man as male) behavior.
She's usually silent but when she speaks she can easily persuade someone to her advantage, she's emphatic (and that's why I don't think her feelings towards Raki are forced) and caring for people and her comrades. In the first chapters she risked her life to save Galk and Cid/Syd without thinking while Clarice just stood and did nothing besides her stupid reasoning.

As for Galatea, I hope she will live at least as long as Miria, she's just too good of a character to get rid of.
As for the next chapter, I wouldn't want a situation where Agatha regrets she cut Miata who would show how powerful she really is killing in an instant awakened #2. That would be too "bleachish". I want Clare back.

I would question intelligence(...)
Clare is one of the most intelligent characters in Claymore. Her talk with Riful, plan to survive Ophelia's attacks, behavior in ES 4, insightful deduction what could happen to Raki, quick-learning and adapting to new circumstances indicate she is intelligent.

Anima

2008-01-05, 04:36

While Clare hasn't shown personality weaknesses (not doesn't have) Clarice has too many and it's not more human-like but more retarded-human-like.
That's exactly what I had in mind.
And I will repeat what Valduran wrote:
However, if you are looking for characters that act human, you are looking in the wrong place.
We are talking about warriors who were orphaned and were raised to counter back the reasons behind it (at least from the Claymore point of view not the org) so looking for more human-like claymores in a sense of showing more human weaknesses is not just right and doesn't fit the context IMO.

stringer13

2008-01-05, 04:42

I agree that Clare is very intelligent. Not as smart as Miria but still smart. When she was fighting the male awakened one in the first atatack on Pieta she quickly deducted that he was using the same move as Galatea. Also she is smart enough to try and set up a plan when her opponent is too strong. In the Ophelia situation OPhelia herself was impressed and commented that she believed Clare picked that spot for her fake defeat.

zato_1one

2008-01-05, 05:43

Just read this chapter because for some reasons I can't use internet at my home for at least two months. :frustrated:

I don't think that the Org's order is a main reason for Clarice. I think she doesn't want Miata to fight Agatha in the first place. She clearly said that "I have no reason to put Miata in danger like that..." She may feel fear Miata but it's no doubt that she must really care for her. So she decides to do a selfish decision (Finished Galatea, retreat and leave Agatha to purg the city). She makes an excuse by using the Org's order. I think like this because of her sentence "Yeah... This is... This is the right thing to do... We don't stand a chance..." I think she tries to find a good reason to support herself. Even if Galatea+Miata has a chance to win but to Clarice, the risk is still too high for her dear daughter. At this point she has to make decision.
- Join force with Galatea
- Fight Galatea and retreat

We've already known that she chooses the second. At first it looked like her plan was going well because both Miata and Agatha attacked Galatea. But in the end of chapter 76, it showed that she made a mistake. She was too naive (you may call her stupid) to think that Agatha didn't attack Miata too. I must admit that I also don't expect Agatha to do that (please don't call me stupid :p) because her tentacles always aim at Galatea first.

I really like the interaction between Galatea and Agatha. The picture of smiling Galatea in page 09 is very beautiful. She seems so relieve and happy. My favorite quote from this chapter "...It's not all that bad. You should give it a try yourself sometime" Feel a bit of sarcastic? That's Galatea for you. :) Seeing Galatea stabbed like that made me start to think that her smile in chapter 75 didn't mean that she had any hidden trick but rather because she laughed to her poor fate. :(

The logic "Claymore must protect human from Yoma" I think it's actually an individual preference. It depends on each Claymore to decide but at least it shouldn't defy the Org. If Teresa has to choose to help between Clare and townsfolk, I'm sure she will choose Clare. In this case I think Clarice just values her partner over people in Labona.

Why doesn't Galatea know about Agatha attacks Miata and Miata condition? I believe that Galatea "can" feel it if she "want" to feel it. I mean she doesn't care. It's like you have a book but you only read a page you want to read. I really don't see a reason why she has to do it. Since she has already had a hard time fighting both Agatha and Miata. I think concentrating on dodging/defending the attack, heal the wound and find a chance to attack are more than enough for her.

Agatha is also sly enough to hurt Miata without making anyone to notice. I think even Miata herself may not know too what really happens to her. Agatha said that "It looks like she's getting upset and can't see what's around her" "...Once she used to the pain, I just upped the damage little by little" It shows that even if Miata has perfect sense but she's still a child and too inexperience. Normally she fights relying on her instinct. But now that she feels frustrate and fills with anger, it blinds her sense and may lead to her doom.

I think that this chapter is just a setup for future events and intend to show about
- Galatea determination
- a bit of Clarice's affection to Miata and her reason
- Agatha's weak point (?), her power and how she controls this scenario. I don't think that she will die by just beheading. But I don't expect that she will regenerate like that. :o

The situation has turned from bad to worse, I think it's really interesting because Clarice have to make decision about what she want Miata to do again. And we will see whether she is truly stupid. My frustration is that this chapter is too short. 1 month waiting is too long for just this 24 pages. I hope next chapter will have extra pages.

Ok my predictions )

As it is now Agatha wins. That is if no one arrives and helps them (I hope they dont) or Miata doesnt awaken (I hope she doesnt).
Agatha already won - Galatea has only one arm and a hole in her stomach + she has been fighting against two opponents for quite a while and has to be tired; Miata has several small holes in her body, wounds everywhere and is loosing her speed and power fast.

Sure Clarice can try to unite everyone (+remaining soldiers) tell Miata to use 10-30% of her Yomi powers (too risky!!! (Miata doesnt even know what "%" is)) and make a daring attack going for Agatha's hair and eventually succeeding.. Unlikely and I wouldnt prefer such a simple conclusion.

I think that Clarice will realy consider retreating. They (Clarice and Miata) will try to escape, while protecting one another from Agatha's tentacles and while she is destracted Galatea attempts to cut Agatha's hair. Fails and is badly injured. Miata uses this chance to complete mama's orders (kills Galatea - sorry) and using her Yoki escapes with Clarice.

Fab 7 aproaches Rabona sensing the AB. Then they sence two claymores escaping from the city - Clare tells everyone to go protect the citizens and herself goes to speak with Clarice and Miata. Clarice asks if org sent her. Quicly tells that there's a dangerous Awakened in there and they (Clarice) have to go to the org to make a report. They part. Later Clare finds out that 2 claymores killed Galatea. Happy end ^^

Sure the ending is quite wild, but it would be far more interesting than just - fab 7 arrive, save everyone, and Clarice realizes that Galatea is good and the organization is bad.

I think the same thing. But I guess Riful will appear and recruit both Galatea and Agatha or she may kill Agatha. :D Somehow I really don't want fab 7 come to the rescue. I also like the idea that no one come to help, Agatha decide to spare Galatea but kill/destroy everything. And about awaken Miata, I personally think that it's hardly happen because I'm sure Galatea will help bring her back (if she's still alive).

Claymore_Obsessed

2008-01-05, 08:05

But Jean died.

And remember Flora? "Let's all survive this fight together no matter what."

Next scene: Oops, dead. :(

Hehe, sorry, couldn't resist.

But I don't really get the "Galatea is about to die" feeling here. It seems like she has alot more left to do before she is allowed to die, and I doubt she would be reintroduced like this just to be killed off right away.

There is even a slight sense that she is actually important to the plot.

but Flora didn't say the magic word, "promise". hehe :heh:

Yes, I think she is definitely a major character with lots of important stuff to do, but who knows, maybe Yagi-sensei might choose a sudden plot twist for her... :(

And I'd just like to point out to the people who want Raphalea to be alive and join forces with the fab 4 that she probally is alive but not going to be joining forces. Clare would probally be angry that she killed Irene if Irene actually is dead. Just wanted to get that off my mind. I've been thinking about it for awhile.:D

I agree, I wouldn't greet her with a warm welcome if I were Claire. Not unless Raphaela does something really impressive (saving the life of a Ghost 7 or Galatea, saving all Rabona citizens, etc)...

Anima

2008-01-05, 08:21

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-05, 09:00

Judging by how passive Rafaela has been acting, I think she wouldn't be interested in joining Clare's group. I think she might go with Irene's choice after killing her sister and even go live where Irene did if she killed her.

This makes good sense if Raphy did not kill Irene and they're both living quietly. If she did murder Irene, then I have a hard time seeing that she would do the same thing she murdered Irene for. Y'know in her past she left the org (with the org's blessing) It just seems odd she wouldn't have some empathy for Irene.

Gooral:
Clarice has too many and it's not more human-like but more retarded-human-like.

Great post, Gooral, but this line cracked me up. My only objection is that the constant calling Clarice stupid or inexperienced really seems like people are covering up for her when she in fact is directly aiding a mass murderer. Let's not forget she was reasoning as cool as a cucumber on the ground surrounded by troops away from the direct fire.

You gave a really excellent defense of Clare; I'd forgotten how smart she really is and persuasive.

I agree, I wouldn't greet her with a warm welcome if I were Claire. Not unless Raphaela does something really impressive (saving the life of a Ghost 7 or Galatea, saving all Rabona citizens, etc)...

Heh, Clare's arm springs to life and beats the $%^& out of Raphy. Clare :innocent: "Oops, I don't know what came over me" :innocent:

Now here's another prediction:
We all know Riful is smart and canny and she is very interested in motivations. (Remember her musings on friendship during the Duph fight?) It's surmised she's in the area. She could come in and if she sees the selfless state that Galatea is in (and with the ecstacy Galatea was in it might not be too hard) and we know Riful wants someone just like Galatea...

Riful says, "Galatea, join me and I'll spare the town."
Galatea, rooted now but new to the idea of total self sacrificial love, what does she say?????

Obviously, if Riful shows up, she is the playmaker. Agatha will slink away post haste or get slaughtered and Miata and Clarice with their wounds are a non-factor. Interestingly, this is one of the few scenerios where evilClarice gets to sneak away alive. As it is now Aggie will mop up the lot of them.

Claymore_Obsessed

2008-01-05, 09:45

Riful says, "Galatea, join me and I'll spare the town."
Galatea, rooted now but new to the idea of total self sacrificial love, what does she say?????

that's a cool "what if", Siegzon Caritas-san :)
and in addition to that, would Riful try to forcefully awaken Galatea or would just recruit her as is?

Considering what she has said and done until now, I'd say she would join Riful, if anything to gain time ... the situation might change soon after all (if the Ghost 7 are nearby).

Valduran

2008-01-05, 09:51

...Clarice has too many and it's not more human-like but more retarded-human-like.

lolz

Good post about Clare though Gooral.

Clare is definately one of, if not THE most suprisingly intelligent protagonist I've ever seen in a shounen anime/manga. She just happens to share that oh-so-common and unfortunate trait of losing her head when certain buttons are pushed.

Now here's another prediction:
We all know Riful is smart and canny and she is very interested in motivations. (Remember her musings on friendship during the Duph fight?) It's surmised she's in the area. She could come in and if she sees the selfless state that Galatea is in (and with the ecstacy Galatea was in it might not be too hard) and we know Riful wants someone just like Galatea...

Riful says, "Galatea, join me and I'll spare the town."
Galatea, rooted now but new to the idea of total self sacrificial love, what does she say?????

Obviously, if Riful shows up, she is the playmaker. Agatha will slink away post haste or get slaughtered and Miata and Clarice with their wounds are a non-factor. Interestingly, this is one of the few scenerios where evilClarice gets to sneak away alive. As it is now Aggie will mop up the lot of them.

I like the idea of Riful showing up, and I like even more the thought of a major Claymore character joining her (Poor Riful just wants a friend and everyone hates her :()

Too bad it doesn't really seem especially probable for Riful to come to Rabona :sad:

that's a cool "what if", Siegzon Caritas-san :)
and in addition to that, would Riful try to forcefully awaken Galatea or would just recruit her as is?

Attempting to forcefully awaken someone is NOT how you make new friends!! :frustrated:

Riful needs to go read "Making Friends for Dummies". It seems to be an area she has trouble with... <sigh>

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-05, 10:02

If Riful is looking for a very specific talent (sensitive Yoki sensing-?) then she may not want to risk awakening her new friend as that traumatic/mystical process might mess up the ability.

Ichihara

2008-01-05, 13:56

xD But I really think that if Riful shows up, and Galatea joins her it'll be interesting~ Riful needs more love! ^^

irvinethearcher

2008-01-05, 18:31

I would question intelligence(...)

Clare is one of the most intelligent characters in Claymore. Her talk with Riful, plan to survive Ophelia's attacks, behavior in ES 4, insightful deduction what could happen to Raki, quick-learning and adapting to new circumstances indicate she is intelligent.

Fenrir, insulting my queen clare, how dare you!;)
I think you confuse strong believe, dedication and fighting despite all seems lost with lack of intelligence. Fights would allways be one with the heart and not only with the mind. Clare knows that. It is not the same as playing a game of chess. Clare hoped from the start, that she somehow could obtain the powers of her beloved teresa.

In extra chapter 4 is a scene which indicates that.
Rubel: What's wrong? Having regrets?
If we had used a normal yoma you could have become an ordinary soldier.
Clare: No i'm fine. This... this is fine

So she asked the org to implant theresas flesh in her. She had the desire to be together with teresa despite she died, too but she hoped to get theresa's power runnig somehow and never gave totaly up on this.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-01-05, 18:37

While Clare hasn't shown personality weaknesses (not doesn't have) Clarice has too many and it's not more human-like but more retarded-human-like. Clare is just fit for battle and doesn't have flaws (besides her reaction on Priscilla name) in that domain. We didn't see her in normal (i.e. daily life when she doesn't need her sword) situations so "she has no personality weaknesses" statement is just Your thesis.
One of the reasons why Clarice was introduced might be author's intention to show how much better warrior Clare was. When Clarice talks, Clare takes action, You think it's inhuman ? I think it's very man-like (man as male) behavior.
She's usually silent but when she speaks she can easily persuade someone to her advantage, she's emphatic (and that's why I don't think her feelings towards Raki are forced) and caring for people and her comrades. In the first chapters she risked her life to save Galk and Cid/Syd without thinking while Clarice just stood and did nothing besides her stupid reasoning.

In case you have not noticed, humans are not always the pinnacle of rational and clear-headedness in situations like this, Clarice's reaction to this entire situation is VERY human like. She may not be as "fit-for-battle" as Clare, but she is definatly not as stupid as people seem to think she is.

I do agree that Clare is definatly not robot-like though, at first she appeared that way but her character began to improve rapidly after the Teresa arc, since we got into her head more often.

Clare's impulsive nature definatly helps in certain areas, such as those you have mentioned, but it also causes her to get into dangerous and exceedingly risky situations. (Not since the time-skip though, which I am thankful for.)

As for Galatea, I hope she will live at least as long as Miria, she's just too good of a character to get rid of.
As for the next chapter, I wouldn't want a situation where Agatha regrets she cut Miata who would show how powerful she really is killing in an instant awakened #2. That would be too "bleachish". I want Clare back.

I doubt Miata can kill an Awakened #2 so easily, so that scenario is unlikely to come up, but I do believe that they can still salvage this situation, especially since Agatha is overconfident, and Galatea's ability becomes alot easier to use when her opponent is distracted by an ally.

I also hate to say it, but Clare is the most "bleachish" character out of the bunch with her sudden power-ups and plot-kai save-the-day abilities, not that I hold it against her.

Clare is one of the most intelligent characters in Claymore. Her talk with Riful, plan to survive Ophelia's attacks, behavior in ES 4, insightful deduction what could happen to Raki, quick-learning and adapting to new circumstances indicate she is intelligent.

It is a shame her intellgience is often blotted out by her hot-headedness, the number of times Clare has gotten herself into trouble due to her rash nature are quite high, she definatly has the ability to think on her feet, and as you have said, in those situations it is quite impressive and telling of her ability as a warrior.

Her ability to plan ahead seems severaly lacking however. She charged right into an encounter with Dauf and did not even consider for a moment that she should retreat, and then freezes up immediatly after realizing she could not even hurt him, which gets her injured and almost killed. She then attacks Riful despite the fact she had a 0% chance of hurting her and almost losses control completley.

When she loses control and first awakens her legs she does not kill Rigaldo in the moment of suprise, she cuts off his arm instead, prolonging the fight and eventually causing her to lose control completely, which then results in her killing Jean.

Not to mention she loses control at the mere mention of Priscilla, and she constantly puts herself at risk of going over her limit. Lucky she has lots of friends to slam her head into something or die for her. :uhoh:

Don't get me wrong though, I don't think Clare is lacking as a main character, I actually quite appreciate her determination, and quick-thinking, but I really hope she has calmed down in these past 7 years so that intelligence she has will actually shine through.

In both Clare and Clarice's situations, we have to remember that we can analyze the situation much better then any of them simply because we are calm (for the most part) observers, while the situations they find themselves in are quite trying, not to mention they can directly sense the strength of the people they are fighting.

Edit: To Irvinethearcher;

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Clare is stupid, she just losses her head way too often for her intellgience to be harped about.

Her determination is certainly what makes me like her character, by taking Teresa's flesh and blood she weakened herself severaly, but I admire her determination, even if she is walking on a dangerous path.

Your point about heart vs mind is what I am getting at here, Clare thinks with her heart alot more then her head, and Clarice is quite the opposite, but they both end up in troublesome situations because they don't think with both all the time. Clare has had alot more exposure then Clarice, so I would not be so quick to pass judgement on her character.

I don't know if many people remember, but Helen was quite hated when she first appeared, it was not until after her character developed more that people began to like her. Picking on Clare certainly made her a target, but in hindsight it was more like sisterly bullying to keep Clare out of harms way.

stringer13

2008-01-05, 20:00

Like Fenrir said Clare is definately not like a robot. WHen Helen insulted her when they furst met she attacked het. Also, when Jean died she cried which is the opposite of being robonic. ALso after all these years in the north she still cares for Raki deeply and wants to find him

I think Clare is intelligent when it comes to battle and things situations that to do with awakened ones. For example Riful herself was impressed when Clare quickly deducted that Riful wanted to hill Isley after the battle with Luciela. Also, in the fourth extra scene she uses her hair as a decoy which saves her life as well as one of her comrades. She was able to find out that the Yoma in Robana was a mummy and almost tricked number #4 OPhelia.

Valduran

2008-01-05, 22:25

People hated Helen at first?? I liked Helen from day one :(

The problem with Clarice isn't so much that she is STUPID, I'm sure she is intelligent enough, but she doesn't have a strong belief in something and a clear vision of her goals guiding her, which makes her indecisive. A soldier who isn't exactly sure what they are fighting for is an ineffectual soldier.

Couple that with her lack of proper combat experience and skill and we have someone who appears to be hopeless and pathetic. I'm sure she'll grow up eventually though. ^^

But I might add that even BEFORE Clare received her rank and became an official Claymore she was still decisive and adept, even if she wasn't especially strong. Clare's hot-headedness is frustrating, but it was obvious from the very beginning that she had all the makings of an elite soldier.

Clarice...ehhh...not so much...

xChaos

2008-01-05, 22:30

Funny, i thought this is a chapter 76 discussion, and that chapter 76 is all about Galatea, Clarice, Miata and the disgusting and horrible and terribly un-artistic Agasa. When did Clare pop up? :P

I suppose Clarice will grow up eventually, she lacks much experience. (Considering her coloured hair, she must have contained less yoma blood inside her. Perhaps its Clare's blood? lol.) Maybe its because Clare has seen with her own eyes how it can be very very dangerous to be a Claymore, and I suppose she thought over it many times over. As for Clarice, though we havent seen any of her history yet, she might have been grabbed from any random place and forced into a Claymore, so she doesnt have much idea what being a Claymore is all about. Or, in chapter 76's case, how sneaky Awakeneds can be, while Clare saw the process of someone she (we?) loved very much being killed. Still, we cant argue that Clare is really so much smarter and quick-witted then Clarice. Beside Clare, Clarice seems like a dope. HAHAHA! Kidding!

Flar

2008-01-06, 02:15

Haha! Now I can see it, when we will have Clarice's background, it will be something like that:

"How I became an orphan? Well, my father was a bandit, he was kind enough but one day he came back missing an arm, ranting about Claymores... the next time he set off, he never came back. Slavers came and took me. I later heard it was a renegade Claymore who killed him."

:p

NezoR

2008-01-06, 09:31

NezoR

2008-01-06, 09:44

I do agree that Clare is definatly not robot-like though, at first she appeared that way but her character began to improve rapidly after the Teresa arc, since we got into her head more often.

I disagree. Even after the Teresa arc, Clare's stiff personality remained the same. Maybe, I should make myself more clear... when I use the term "robot" I don't mean "lacking personality". From now on I'll use the term "stiff" to describe Clare's personality. It's not necessarily a bad thing because Flash Sword Irene was stiff yet I liked her a lot.

Valduran

2008-01-06, 10:08

Fenrir was just saying we got into her head more and we're better able to understand her, thus she became more interesting and less emotionless to the viewer.

It's all just a matter of taste, but we see people like Clarice in real life every day, not really sure why they are especially interesting to see in fantasy fiction .
Characters like her are also a dime a dozen in anime, and they get boring fast unless they learn to grow.

And for the record, I'm a Teresa Fanboy...!

(there actually aren't that many true Clare fanboys out there, Teresa, Miria, Galatea and Irene seem to get most of the love ;))

chibamonster

2008-01-06, 11:20

When I first watched the series/read the manga I was surprised by how cold Clare was to everyone even when she did take Raki under her wing. After seeing Teresa's arc it made sense to me but I was still surprised by how different each Claymores personality was in comparison to her own. Clare's experience wasn't uncommon as we learned from Deneve in Pieta (losing her family to youma I mean, not being adopted by the number one claymore and witnessing one of the worst failures in the organizations history). Helen was a definite wake up call to the difference in Claymores personality for me. Even now I wonder how people like Teresa, Irene and Galatea kept their minds intact going through what they did.

stringer13

2008-01-06, 12:24

(there actually aren't that many true Clare fanboys out there, Teresa, Miria, Galatea and Irene seem to get most of the love ;))

I'm a true CLare fanboy! I don't know if I like her more then Teresa or Irene though so I see your point. I like them all the same. Oh well I thought there would be more Clatr fan-boys.
:sad:
Anyway Clare is way more interesting then Clarice because Clarice is more like a regular protagonist, while Clare is cold on the outside but like Irene said is very passionate on the inside.

And just to prove that I love Clare so much I have a new avatar.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-06, 12:32

Can I pick 2? Galatea and Yuma and Helen Roxxor!
It goes back to the idea of getting an understanding of why they're frosty, but also their noble actions that make people luv'em. Words and emotions are cool, but when someone acts in love and at cost to themselves for love, particularly when that person is already emotionally wounded, that brings out a lot of luv for the characters. Clare's done a lot of that, and even those like Helen who was too wounded to fight the male AB but kept strugglin, that's cool too. Or Yuma who recognizes their nobility and pines to help. That's a heart grabber, too. She'll have her day.

Dassasin

2008-01-06, 22:07

Devilz911

2008-01-06, 22:28

But...but it hurts!

Anima

2008-01-07, 05:44

I dont think that Galatea's arm being sliced off will be a serious factor in the fight. Claymores only fight with one arm and there doesn't seem to be any blood coming from the wound ( at least when I looked.)
Even Teresa, who is considered the most powerful claymore ever, used both hands in some occasions in her fight against Priscilla. In Galatea's fight against Dauf, she used both of her hands to attack as well so it's not like it's an extra after all.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-07, 07:30

There are never arterial gouts of blood when limbs get hacked in Claymore (I forget whether elfenlied had blood spurts) I always assumed it was due to the radically different flesh of Yoma, the same sort of plasticity that accounts for their minor shape changing (Jean's twisty arm, Helen's stretching)

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-07, 13:52

Even Teresa, who is considered the most powerful claymore ever, used both hands in some occasions in her fight against Priscilla. In Galatea's fight against Dauf, she used both of her hands to attack as well so it's not like it's an extra after all.

I think if there is not intervention, I cannot see short of another awakening what will stop Agatha. By the end of 76, she should be able to finish them off now.

Valduran

2008-01-07, 14:10

I think if there is not intervention, I cannot see short of another awakening what will stop Agatha. By the end of 76, she should be able to finish them off now.

Probably. It would be unrealistic if they were able to keep fighting her. I think even if Clarice were to suddenly switch sides it wouldn't make much difference now, unless Miata has some kind of power-up hidden up her sleeve.

stringer13

2008-01-07, 16:12

Even Teresa, who is considered the most powerful claymore ever, used both hands in some occasions in her fight against Priscilla. In Galatea's fight against Dauf, she used both of her hands to attack as well so it's not like it's an extra after all.
Yeah but Galatea seems to be able to fend off Miata's attacks with one arm unless Agatha attacks while holding her off. Also, Irene had only one arm and she still seemed to have around the same strength as she did with one arm.:p

Anima

2008-01-07, 16:39

Yeah but Galatea seems to be able to fend off Miata's attacks with one arm unless Agatha attacks while holding her off. Also, Irene had only one arm and she still seemed to have around the same strength as she did with one arm.:p
I think they can manage but not as effective with both arm if you even just consider that it's needed for balance. :)

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-07, 17:06

Yeah but Galatea seems to be able to fend off Miata's attacks with one arm unless Agatha attacks while holding her off. Also, Irene had only one arm and she still seemed to have around the same strength as she did with one arm.:p

Well, true, we haven't seen Galatea go past 10% she was as beautiful as ever if not moreso in 76, and she is the Claymore with the biggest surge in Yoki when she goes past 10% (something like that she mentioned it to Duph of all people). Galatea definately has a swan song left in her. :uhoh::upset:
The end result though is martyrdom with Agatha still alive.

Valduran

2008-01-07, 18:00

Rafaela: "I'd heard you had just one arm, but it looks like you have lost both now. Sorry, it seems you ran out of luck."

Irene: "No, I'd only have a chance with both arms, probably."

Don't underestimate the value of two arms ^^

While they can obviously still fight very well with just one, it is definately alot less effective than two.

Anima

2008-01-07, 18:03

Ah good catch, Valduran! and I would love to see a battle between those #2's! would be awesome fight :3

stringer13

2008-01-07, 18:42

Yeah but also when Clare finds out that Irene has quit fighting she says............

Clare: You gave up fighting? Even though you only have one arm, the sword you wield is still very powerful.

Also, I'd love to see the battle between Raphaela and Irene also. Also Irene vs Galatea would be cool.

Sassarai

2008-01-07, 19:08

The second arm can be use for balance and added str for attacks/defending. Imo it's a big handicap.

chibamonster

2008-01-07, 19:22

Anima

2008-01-07, 19:36

I'm just impressed that Galatea is fighting in heels! That can't be giving the traction a blind woman needs for combat! It reminds me of when Clare battled Duff with one shoe on after her foot was crushed. Then again Jean fought wearing nothing but a cloak, so really it doesn't seem to matter as long as a claymore has their sword.
Having the heels is indeed very weird but I don't see a problem with Jean fighting with a cloak only. As for Clare's shoe, come on man! don't be so picky! she is in a middle of a fight. Do you want her to go looking for a spare shoe? :p

I honestly can't figure out why Claymores even have armor. It gets torn through like paper and doesn't seem to protect very well. The one time it seemed to do something that I can remember is when Teresa is defending against Irene's quick sword and one of the slashes slid off her shoulder pad. Maybe the armor is just there to protect their "critical spot" (which hasn't been mentioned since like the slashers arc) on their torso. That or to look cool.
Good point, but I think it's only for the looks. How can a shoulder armor protect a "critical spot"? :twitch: or can you explain that belt thing they have on their waists and what does it do? just extra weight and because when Teresa fought without it, she looked rather funny. :eyespin:

But I am a much bigger fan of the costumes Renegade Claymores figure out without the organization. Clare found a sweet cloak and gave it to Jean. Irene and the magnificent seven went for what looks like black leather with straps and Teresa is a nun. Raphaela will probably appear as a nurse, a French maid, or a beer maiden.
LOL... I thought Irene's one was a bit naughty. Totally unfitting for her character. the fab 7 uniform looks ok if they just ditch the straps :x
I suppose you meant Galatea is the nun not Teresa obviously but that's just to help her disguise man! how can she act as a nun in a non-nun uniform (now that sounded rather funny.. non-nun! lol)

One-eyed Rafaela in maid uniform PLX.. We need that in the image thread! :heh:

Valduran

2008-01-07, 19:42

The second arm can be use for balance and added str for attacks/defending. Imo it's a big handicap.

Definately. I think we people with 2 arms take em for granted and don't realise how devasting the loss of one of them would be ^^

Raphaela will probably appear as a nurse, a French maid, or a beer maiden.

lolz

Heh, the Claymore armor is actually horribly impractical and mostly pointless. There is nothing protecting their necks, heart, intestines, etc...All the places that actually really need armor. And considering the nature of the beings they fight, wearing any armor at all is pretty pointless unless it is heavy plate. And that's not the best thing for mobility. >.<

I guess it's just a matter of what the author thought would look cool for an outfit. ^^

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-07, 19:47

Raphaela will probably appear as a nurse, a French maid, or a beer maiden.

Anime maids (Black Lagoon, Mai Otome just to name 2) are already some of the deadliest forces in the cosmos! An anime Claymore maid would be simply too terrible to behold! Riful would get one whiff of that Maid Yoki and poof she'd crawl up in a little ball and dissappear from Maid Raphaela!

stringer13

2008-01-07, 20:18

I think the armor protects them somewhat. I mean in Teresa's fight against Irene and Priscilla she got one small scratch from Irene which would leave a little cut and Priscilla made a lot of scratches on her armor which would make some damage.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-07, 21:37

Heh, the Claymore armor is actually horribly impractical and mostly pointless. There is nothing protecting their necks, heart, intestines, etc...All the places that actually really need armor. And considering the nature of the beings they fight, wearing any armor at all is pretty pointless unless it is heavy plate. And that's not the best thing for mobility. >.<

I guess it's just a matter of what the author thought would look cool for an outfit. ^^

You need to take into account super strength and super dexterity which Claymore have. The rules for what makes good armor really change with supernatural physical abilities. Your combat style and what kind of blows you don't want to take can account for a supernatural being wanting some odd choices for physical gear as opposed to what history and experience have taught us what is best for a normal human. The shoulder armor pieces may be an offensive armor piece for a very forceful shoulder slam when the reach of their claymore sword becomes a disadvantage in close quarters combat..

It could be with their dexterity they just want a few pieces of armor which they can move like a normal fighter would use a buckler, but they can adjust their body via dexterity the way a normal gladiator via dexterity moves a buckler to block an opponents blade. The Claymores have the dexterity to move their armor into the opponents shot while advancing to strike.

Claymores throw out the normal human rules of fighting, hence the way they use those honkin' big swords.
YMMV

khryoleoz

2008-01-07, 21:47

Jeez people... Not to sound too facetious here, but there are too many Clare fanboys here. :rolleyes: It's amazing how soon people forget about the finer details of what they are reading. Remember this....

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5810/lloa4.jpg

Yup, that's the point I'm making. I'm not saying that Clare is not an interesting or likable character, I'm saying that IMO I prefer the more "human-like" Clarice to the "stiff" robot-like Clare. Clarice has all the attributes that make her a more interesting character and I welcome her appearance and wish to see more of her in the future.

That statement is less an accurate description of Clare's character as it more reveals the prejudice of ignorant townsfolk. What Clare showed in the beginning is a defensive wall, something which Raki happened to penetrate and break down.

And for the record, I'm a Teresa Apologist, not just a mere a fanboy as others may be. I need not resort to fanboyism because Teresa beats anything. :p Well, except for two things, a little girl's hug and a cheap shot.

Sassarai

2008-01-07, 21:54

The most useful part of the armor is definitely the Sword holder. It can hold up to 2 swords. That's simply amazing.

chibamonster

2008-01-07, 22:25

The sword holder certainly is useful. Except try pulling a long sword out of a sheath on your back... you'll find your arm is much shorter than you think. I know from sad experience... But this could easily be explained by saying the sword is just held there and can be pulled out sideways. That makes the most sense. Treating it like a sheath would be impossible for the size of the claymores. But however it works the sword holder is awesome. Especially because it seems to allow for instantaneous sword drawing without damaging itself. I wonder how many times Flora missed the holster before she managed the wind cutter without cutting up her cloak.

Maybe the uniform is just to make sure people know they are claymores? It seems if Claymores have a choice they take off the armor and walk around without their bulky shoes on. They even train without armor. It could just be a symbol of their status as an actual warrior. Also their armor is customized for each claymore. I didn't notice the difference until I saw a pic of Teresa and Galatea from the side, but each shoulder pad and chest strap is a little different. Subtle, but still different. Raphaela has crazy big shoulder armor.

The shoes don't make any sense though now that I think about them. Clare didn't even bother finding a shoe after hers was crushed by Duff and the fight was over. Even when Raphaela appeared she was still going one shoe one one shoe off, which I can't do because it freaks me out balance wise.

I am really all in for the new rogue claymore costumes. I remember speculating a while back that Galatea would be in black leather like everyone else who left the org. The nun thing got me totally by surprise. Nurse/Maid (I can't decide) Raphaela is the next costume to appear. That or... school girl...

I was looking to see if Clare got her shoe back on and I noticed something. Clare shows Jean how she has merged her youki reading with the quick sword by cutting up trees all around her. Jean responds by saying... superb. That's right. Jean said it too. And yes, Jean is still not wearing anything under that cloak, so the wind from Clare's attack has her looking at a fully naked Jean once again. Page 133 of Volume 9. I don't know why it was so funny to me.

khryoleoz

2008-01-07, 22:57

Well, you might think it's silly and funny. I think it's damn HOT! :naughty:

Valduran

2008-01-07, 23:01

You need to take into account super strength and super dexterity which Claymore have. The rules for what makes good armor really change with supernatural physical abilities. Your combat style and what kind of blows you don't want to take can account for a supernatural being wanting some odd choices for physical gear as opposed to what history and experience have taught us what is best for a normal human. The shoulder armor pieces may be an offensive armor piece for a very forceful shoulder slam when the reach of their claymore sword becomes a disadvantage in close quarters combat..

It could be with their dexterity they just want a few pieces of armor which they can move like a normal fighter would use a buckler, but they can adjust their body via dexterity the way a normal gladiator via dexterity moves a buckler to block an opponents blade. The Claymores have the dexterity to move their armor into the opponents shot while advancing to strike.

Erm, armor is generally a precautionary measure for when someone gets a blow through your guard. And I never once saw them utilize their armor in any fashion, the most attention it ever gets is to be sliced up when someone hits them on the shoulder. Shoulder slams really aren't well-suited to the Claymore style of combat. And also, any blow they are quick enough to react to can be just as easily blocked by their sword, so they aren't exactly using them as stationary shields.

Chain mail would be far more effective protection, wouldn't encumber them AT ALL since they are so strong, and they could still wear shoulder guards over it. They have groin plates, but no chest armor...? Plate boots? Metal boots accomplish little more than slowing you down, unless you are on horseback.

I really must disagree with the statement that the rules for what makes good armor change. Shoulder guards are definately useful, but the problem is, most blows that you are unable to parry or dodge, generally do not land on your shoulders. You start by protecting your critical spots, and the places you are most likely to take a blow, then add more from there depending on your endurance and strength.

And Chiba kinda(maybe unintentionally, dunno :D) made a point about the author's view of practicality. The way they are able to whip their huge swords out in a fraction of a second without damaging their outfit is very unrealistic to say the least. Unless their sword holders are incredibly ingenious in design.

I return to my former conclusion: It's all about the looks of the outfit, nothing more. I think Yagi was trying to go for something unique. ^^

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-07, 23:48

If you're strong enough to slice up a healthy tree of a foot diameter with a sword in one hand, the rules of armor encumbrance change as far as weight, but the impediment to movement does not change; hence, the desirte for piecemeal armor.. Don't know how I can express it better, but I can definately see the utility of super strong shape changers not wanting to be enclosed in armor but still have piecemeal armor to use at need. Frankly it's what I'd do.

I figured the the sword scabbards are clips perhaps spring loaded, btw, not sheaths.

Negativedark

2008-01-07, 23:55

I figure the armor is for little more than show. For one thing the armor Galk was wearing in the Cathereal fight didn't stop the Yoma's claws. It may have helped keep them from killing him, but they still penetreated the plate. Claymores don't wear armor over their vital organs. And the seven ghosts have done away with armor compleatly. I figure it's just the uniform the org assigns.
The shoe thing with Claire does bug me though. Has anyone else ever tried to walk with just one shoe on? I disrupts your balence, since your legs are now of uneven lengh. Maybe there wasn't time to take care of it in battle, but Claire still only had one shoe on later! I would have taken it off after a few steps.
As for Jean and the cloak, well obvously Jean didn't feel ashamed of her body.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-08, 00:11

ok, ok, i'm all alone on the armor thiing. :argue:

khryoleoz

2008-01-08, 00:15

I'm of the opinion that the armor is restrictive. The armor may have been a necessity during the time of male warriors. But all that the female warriors need to fight effectively is just a cloak as Jean was wearing. Yup. Nice.

Valduran

2008-01-08, 00:56

ok, ok, i'm all alone on the armor thiing. :argue:

:D

But actually you made a good point about them being shapechangers. That pretty much rules out chainmail unless they want to get a new set of armor everytime they fight an enemy that requires massive yoki release.

Chainmail isn't movement restricting at all though, just heavy.
(From personal experience ;))

Sassarai

2008-01-08, 01:55

chibamonster

2008-01-08, 02:36

I'll just imagine that the sword holder is a clamp, or a side sling, not a scabbard. Just like Siegzon Caritas said. It's true, walking around without a shoe on would not be easy. I've lost a shoe or too in mud and hopping around over rocks ain't easy. And even with a cloak on, Jean must have been more than just comfortable with her body. Walking through a forest with a blanket on is just asking for trouble. They were walking for long enough for Galatea to return, give a report, and for Rubel to take Raphaela out to find them.

It is fascinating to me how each claymores armor is a little different. Who do they have make the specialized armor? Even Jean and Clare's armor is different when they appear in Pieta. They must have a guy back at the shop making armor constantly. Do the claymores get to pick their armor? Do they get to pick their symbol? Helen seems to have modified her outfit to accomodate her stretching. The part of their armor that might be the most useful is the shoulder clip over their sternum which might offer a little protection over their hybrid parts, but not much else.

I think the armor is just a badge which screams, "I am a claymore if you can't already tell."

Shiryuu

2008-01-08, 04:19

:D

But actually you made a good point about them being shapechangers. That pretty much rules out chainmail unless they want to get a new set of armor everytime they fight an enemy that requires massive yoki release.

From what I can remember, doesn't Alicia's black armor stay intact after she transforms?

NoSanninWa

2008-01-08, 04:22

From what I can remember, doesn't Alicia's black armor stay intact after she transforms?

No, it doesn't. Heck, the man in black even points out to Galatea that they need new clothing after every battle.

Shiryuu

2008-01-08, 04:37

No, it doesn't. Heck, the man in black even points out to Galatea that they need new clothing after every battle.
Just checked, it stays intact:

Before:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7215/sc1ds0.jpg
During:
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/6123/sc2kj6.jpg
After:
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9784/sc3qc6.jpg

Taylor_Maclaurin

2008-01-08, 04:41

(...) I think the armor is just a badge which screams, "I am a claymore if you can't already tell."
Maybe this armor is only to protect them from humans. When they're walking it can be heard from a long distance like a police siren, warning: "don't try to mess with me, I'm armored and dangerous". Also it can protect them from most of human attacks, because they don't have enough strength to penetrate it. Of course any claymore could easily dodge average attacks but magic falcon sword used by bandit leader would probably slice Clarice if she didn't wear armor. Also piercing attack caused by spears would make less damage if someone had armor on. Of course against bolts or arrows it would not defend them but still it would be quite good protection against humans who are untouchable by MiB law.

Flar

2008-01-08, 08:33

No, it doesn't. Heck, the man in black even points out to Galatea that they need new clothing after every battle.No, no, the MIB says that they have a black costume because giving them a normal one would mean replacing it every battle.

That black thing is actually a sort of super-stretchy Lycra, if you didn't notice, Helen uses it too on her arms and legs.

Also, what Shiryuu said.

Now, why isn't the normal claymore uniform made with this type of cloth? I guess that the normal uniforms may have some sort of benefit too. Seeing as how technologically advanced you would have to be to create sleeves that can extend to like ten thousand times their original length without losing either elasticity or shape, I posit that the white claymore uniform is more resistant that a plate armor, impervious to elements like fire/acid/cold, and yet doesn't stop the evaporation of sweat.

For the pieces of metal themselves, the shoulder are to support the Claymore sheath, the rest has no utility whatsover. The half skirt framing the camel toe and the useless cape were actually the biggest turn off for me when I started to read. Even now I find it ridiculous, especially the cape. A case can be made for the skirt to offer some sort of protection, but the cape, what is its use? It's too short to protect from cold, rain or anything, and it actually makes it easier for anyone to grab the wearer and pull. The only use I can think for it is hiding the sheath, makes sense since something that allows Claymore to do things like Windcutter is totally out of this world, the org would not want to have it reverse engineered.

Anh_Minh

2008-01-08, 08:38

Now, why isn't the normal claymore uniform made with this type of cloth? I guess that the normal uniforms may have some sort of benefit too. Seeing as how technologically advanced you would have to be to create sleeves that can extend to like ten thousand times their original length without losing either elasticity or shape, I posit that the white claymore uniform is more resistant that a plate armor, impervious to elements like fire/acid/cold, and yet doesn't stop the evaporation of sweat.

Or, you know, cheap.

Cost's probably why they don't wear armor made of magical unbreakable Claymore metal... Though then, why waste it on grave markers?

Anima

2008-01-08, 09:52

Just checked, it stays intact:

Before:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7215/sc1ds0.jpg
During:
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/6123/sc2kj6.jpg
After:
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9784/sc3qc6.jpg

Yep, the first time I noticed her symbol strap was still there I freaked out!but it's kinda cool. Anyway, it doesn't seem like Alicia's size increases that much but probably if she ever needed to extend her limbs it wont get torn.

It kinda makes me wonder tho, why Beth has the same uniform when she does no real fighting. I think it's only because they are twins they made them wear the same uniform. :D

Shiryuu

2008-01-08, 10:38

It kinda makes me wonder tho, why Beth has the same uniform when she does no real fighting. I think it's only because they are twins they made them wear the same uniform. :D

From what I understand, they're both able to awaken as long as they soul link. So in case Beth has to awaken (Alicia gets injured or something), her clothes won't get ruined too.

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-08, 11:54

but the cape, what is its use? It's too short to protect from cold, rain or anything, and it actually makes it easier for anyone to grab the wearer and pull. The only use I can think for it is hiding the sheath, makes sense since something that allows Claymore to do things like Windcutter is totally out of this world, the org would not want to have it reverse engineered.

Auuuugh!!! My brother in Claymore, don't be hating on the cape. The cape says I am a totally royal mutha. Superman has a cape. Zorro. The Shadow. Cape says, "Look out now. I will scary ownz joo!"

The cape says, I am a serious player with serious stones. I am puttin it on the line so I am wearin' this cape to let you know in advance. Don't get in my grill unless you got a reason that is capeworthy!

Next to the Claymore itself. the cape is their most vital piece of equipment, even more so than the shoulder slammin' armor and the booty kickin steel booties!

Flar

2008-01-08, 12:52

Auuuugh!!! My brother in Claymore, don't be hating on the cape. The cape says I am a totally royal mutha. Superman has a cape. Zorro. The Shadow. Cape says, "Look out now. I will scary ownz joo!"Actually, using a bolt of cloth about 1 meter too short to be a cape doesn't make you a badass, it makes you a moron. It's especially noticeable when the Claymore has to fetch a real cape when she really wants to stay dry or warm.

Beside, darkwing duck had a cape too, and superman is a pansy in tights.

Cost's probably why they don't wear armor made of magical unbreakable Claymore metal... Though then, why waste it on grave markers?Well obviously once the Claymore symbol is engraved in the indestructible metal, there is no way to change it, so naturally, new Claymores with new symbols could not use the old swords. Also, the metal is of course so extraordinary that even the most powerful heat could not make it melt again.

As for why the MiBs don't issue invincible armors to their Claymores, I think it's because deep down they are perverts, and like the sight of a woman with a skin-tight outfit. Explains the camel toe skirt too. Now that I think about it, didn't Rubul peep on Clare, too?

Anima

2008-01-08, 13:45

As for why the MiBs don't issue invincible armors to their Claymores, I think it's because deep down they are perverts, and like the sight of a woman with a skin-tight outfit. Explains the camel toe skirt too. Now that I think about it, didn't Rubul peep on Clare, too?
peep on Clare? do you mean when she got her stomach pierced by that yoma nd Rubul was checking it? I didn't think that was peeping.

Flar

2008-01-08, 14:03

peep on Clare? do you mean when she got her stomach pierced by that yoma nd Rubul was checking it? I didn't think that was peeping.For the record, since it doesn't seem to have been obvious, I was being facetious in my previous posts.

If I had not been I would have used the word plothole.

Claymore_Obsessed

2008-01-08, 14:10

Actually, using a bolt of cloth about 1 meter too short to be a cape doesn't make you a badass, it makes you a moron. It's especially noticeable when the Claymore has to fetch a real cape when she really wants to stay dry or warm.

Beside, darkwing duck had a cape too, and superman is a pansy in tights.

Darkwing Duck is a parody/joke character so by definition it doesn't count, and Superman... I don't really like him, his costume is... weird, but I wouldn't exactly call him a pansy. :heh:

Imho Claymore cape is wonderful, as all of their outfit.
The official outfit marks them as official full-fledged Claymores, and the renegade outfit... well it's really badass.

I don't care if it's unrealistic, unpractical, etc. It's just awesome!:D

What about the metal boots? Superb
"I don't fear thee anymore, puddle of dirty stuff in public toilet! :heh:

Bikerider

2008-01-08, 14:29

The armour is more for show that protection. Makes them look more intimidating / impressive to humans.

NoSanninWa

2008-01-08, 16:07

No, no, the MIB says that they have a black costume because giving them a normal one would mean replacing it every battle.

That black thing is actually a sort of super-stretchy Lycra, if you didn't notice, Helen uses it too on her arms and legs. AH! Of course! I hadn't realized the connection between their black costumes and Helen's black leggings and sleeves. Your understanding is definitely the correct one.

Flar

2008-01-08, 16:19

Imho Claymore cape is wonderful, as all of their outfit.
The official outfit marks them as official full-fledged Claymores, and the renegade outfit... well it's really badass. At least they have correct capes and no useless bits of metal on their person. The mini skirt sucks, though. Especially when you know that the girls have to do acrobatics while fighting and that they were 7 years in the snow and freezing winds with a damn skirt. Unpractical and bad taste.

The original costume, to a higher degree, actually reminds me of an adolescent fantasy about girls with swords. In fantasy novels and illustrations you get half naked females in chainmail bikinis, in Claymore you get skintight suits and an armors highlighting the part where it should be but isn't, namely legs, crotch and chest... It's worse. Though, it fits the freudian symbolism of a girl with a sword I guess.

The armour is more for show that protection. Makes them look more intimidating / impressive to humans.While I accord it might make them noticeable, I disagree that it makes them any more intimidating than without. If I see some guy wearing one tenth of the usual safety equipement, it doesn't impress me at all, it actually decreases my opinion of him. If what that equipment represents is the issue, the org could have found less bulky a symbol, a red armband with a black swastika on a white background, for example.

In the end, the mangaka just thought it looked cool, no need to try to find rational explanations

Siegzon Caritas

2008-01-08, 16:24

In the end, the mangaka just thought it looked cool, no need to try to find rational explanations

But it's fun! :D
I'm still waiting for the great Deneve shoulderslam when she stops a charging rhino from trampling an innocently sleeping Yuma.

Claymore_Obsessed
"I don't fear thee anymore, puddle of dirty stuff in public toilet!
Absolutely! And all those Yoma guts that need trompin on. Nothin stomps like stainless steel clodhoppers! *CLOMP*

chibamonster

2008-01-08, 17:22

Teresa put the metal boots to good use; standing on swords and kicking Claymores through buildings. I guess no one else has unlocked that secret ability.

One thing I think is really interesting about the Claymore costume design and the claymores in general is that despite them being a bunch of chicks in skin tight outfits the focus is not really on their physical appeal. Whenever someone sees them without their grey outfits they notice horrible scarring and are not interested. Especially the bandits who you'd think would need some pretty heavy deterrents to be disgusted by Teresa. How much of it was intentional to avoid fan service? With the bandits, Rubels, and chibi Clare's reactions to a claymore's deformed torso I am glad it is left to the imagination. Poor chibi clare burst into tears when she saw Teresa's scarring.

With the appearance of Agatha it seems that for the first time we have a former claymore who is recognizing themselves as an attractive woman and even flaunting it. It gives a strange contrast to the usual claymore attitude of general confusion towards physical urges (like when Clare got kissed by Sid and was like 'huh?') Galatea showed a little bit of concern in using her youki because it would make her less attractive, but we never saw Galatea out on the town flirting with guys or showing skin to get attention. Clare mentioned that she was trained to smile like a prostitute but I am pretty confident that she wouldn't be very good at it. Maybe that was why she was number 47.

Sassarai

2008-01-08, 20:01

Those boots are a disadvantage because they make a lot of noise :) That's is why Teresa would of been able to counter that sneak attack plan by Prissy-tachi :)

Shiryuu

2008-01-09, 00:55

Especially when you know that the girls have to do acrobatics while fighting and that they were 7 years in the snow and freezing winds with a damn skirt. Unpractical and bad taste.

They can regulate their temperature. The author probably didn't want to have to draw cameltoes every scene, so he put skirts in. :p

Boots are useful. Not like they ride on horses, and it would be a pain to heal everytime some stone pricks their feet.

Flar

2008-01-09, 03:06

With the appearance of Agatha it seems that for the first time we have a former claymore who is recognizing themselves as an attractive woman and even flaunting it. It gives a strange contrast to the usual claymore attitude of general confusion towards physical urges (like when Clare got kissed by Sid and was like 'huh?') I'm not sure about that, I rather think that the author just doesn't want to deal with that aspect and instead focus on monster asskicking.

Apart from Agatha, we have also Riful who hints at her sexuality. For Claymores, Helen makes the most references to it, starting from calling Raki Clare's plaything, to comparing (half) awakening to having an orgasm. We have also the way Clarice reacts to Miata's intentions at first.

When Clare was kissed by Sid, I think anyone would have been surprised like her. Surprise kisses are always paralyzing females in mangas, anyway.

It's just that as Claymores, they are not used to being looked upon as women, heck they don't even stay long enough to socialize, and make everything they can to scare people. (Except Helen, maybe :p)

redmeat

2008-01-09, 03:11

Let's see...

The cape is good for wiping snot, face, mouth, the pelvic places after a no. 1 or 2, asphyxiation of witnesses, etc. It's basically a general purpose cloth.

The metal boots are good for kicking horny men and Yomas in the groin and they are long lasting.

The shiny mini-skirt is excellent for holding money and distracting the Yomas' attention :naughty:

Flar

2008-01-09, 04:18

But of course! It is the equivalent of a towel, and we all know that a towel is about the most massively useful thing a travelling swordswoman can have. Partly it has great practical value - you can wrap it around you for warmth as you bound across the cold streets of Pieta; you can lie on it on the brilliant marble-sanded beaches of Santraginus, inhaling the heady sea vapours; you can sleep under it beneath the stars which shine so redly on the desert south of Rabona; use it to sail a mini raft down the slow heavy river Moth; wet it for use in hand-to- hand-combat; wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or to avoid the gaze of the Ravenous eater Duff (a mindboggingly stupid awakened being, it assumes that if you can't see it, it can't see you - daft as a bush, but very ravenous); you can wave your towel in emergencies as a distress signal, and of course dry yourself off with it if it still seems to be clean enough.

More importantly, a towel has immense psychological value. For some reason, if a human discovers that a Claymore has her towel with her, he will automatically assume that she is also in possession of a toothbrush, face flannel, soap, tin of biscuits, flask, compass, map, ball of string, gnat spray, wet weather gear, two handed sword, etc., etc. Furthermore, the human will then happily lend the Claymore any of these or a dozen other items that the Claymore might accidentally have "lost". What the human will think is that any woman who can travel the length and breadth of the world, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through, and still knows where her towel is is clearly a woman to be reckoned with.

Hence a phrase which has passed into slang, as in "Hey, you sass that hoopy Clare? There's a frood who really knows where her cape is."

Claymore_Obsessed

2008-01-09, 12:09

For Claymores, Helen makes the most references to it, starting from calling Raki Clare's plaything, to comparing (half) awakening to having an orgasm.

Now it comes to my mind: to make such a statement, she should have already felt a real orgasm, right? :heh:
so I wonder, who's the lucky one? :D

Flar

2008-01-09, 12:10

Lucky fingers?

Claymore_Obsessed

2008-01-09, 12:20

Lucky fingers?

Well yes, it's more than a possibility (and if we consider the special ability of her arms...zomg :heh:)

Defiled one

2008-01-10, 15:05

Lucky fingers?

Or a man in black. For...training purposes.....like Clare`s "smile prostitute mood"

For...training purposes...

DazarGaidin

2008-01-10, 21:09

Aren't most claymore/all captured as little girls? I imagine most didn't experience a love life/sex life. THere might have been a few who somehow found time in between travels and someone who cared enough not to be bothered by their scars or occupation. Maybe Agatha's demeanor is a case of someone never experiencing something, but when given the opportunity goes way overboard. This would be double the case with an awakened being, as they seem to go way int he opposite direction from discipline toward vice and whatever makes them feel good...(guts of course but i think there is more to them than that, especially awakened beings)

chibamonster

2008-01-10, 21:25

Good point about a "normal" claymore child hood DazarGaidin! It seems that many of them were orphaned from real families, so there would definitely be those haunting memories from their old families. Even Teresa was once a black haired street urchin who would die of starvation some day. Claymores seem to be taken from places where no one cares about them. Much like how the villages responded to both Clare and Raki when they were close to the youma. They were outcasts even before they were infused with youma flesh. I'm surprised more claymores aren't angry at humans for putting them in the situations they are in. Claymores in the organization don't seem to have the luxury of a social life. Maybe a fellow warrior who they were in combat with like Miria and Hilda.

Clare's best friend was little more than a memory of someone who held her hand as they both went through pain. They had little to talk about once they met again, although that could have been to avoid making the meeting more painful than it had to be. Friends among warriors seems to be much less rare than a claymore human relationship (which would be even more rare than a human AB relationship:uhoh:). If nothing else the knowledge that they will eventually awaken could drive them away from others, keeping their human heart intact, but isolated. Sure the fab 4 don't have that concern now, but every claymore in the past would know that they would either die in combat, be put down by another claymore or awaken and lose their human heart. That could put breaks on any relationship. Not to mention the constant travel. It's not like they could make phone calls.

In Agatha's case her going over board and reacting to the deprived live of a claymore could have caused her awakening. That would be very black widow like and entirely consistant with her character. She seems to get some sort of twisted sexual stimulation out of killing humans. Some AB's might delight in terror, but Bathing in humans blood seems to have earned Agatha the nick name Crimson. She doesn't seem at all remorseful about the monster she has become and seems to enjoy it more than almost any AB we have seen so far. Maybe it's just because we haven't seen many other AB's feeding.