View Full Version : Kaiba (Another Masaaki Yuasa x Madhouse production)
Off the Madhouse website: http://www.madhouse.co.jp/news/news_2008_01.html
Translated:
"Kaiba" (カイバ), the newest work by the man behind the widely-discussed Mind Game and Kemonozume, Masaaki Yuasa, has been confirmed to go on air. Following Kemonozume, this will be another original TV series by Yuasa. The story will be a sci-fi love story. It it scheduled to air on WOWOW from April onwards.
Okay, where's the like 5 people on this forum who enjoy Yuasa's stuff and are happy to hear this news?
I kinda hope it'll be different from Kemonozume story-wise though. Also I am keen to hear who the other staff members are.
Never heard of him, but I loved both Mind Game and Kemonozume, so yea, go Mr. Yuasa and his new series. Both of his works had unique story, but also problems in substantiating them with solid developments. So here's hoping on my part, that the story he tells this time matches his out-of-the-world animation.
WOWOW's page for the anime:
http://www.wowow.co.jp/anime/kaiba/
BluWacky
2008-01-09, 07:04
Holy Guacamole! Best birthday present ever!
(even if I didn't like Mind Game that much, and thought Kemonozume was a bit mixed...)
The WOWOW site at http://www.wowow.co.jp/anime/kaiba has a very funky backdrop and the phrase "Even without my memories, I love you...". Sounds intriguing!
Ooh! Happy birthday to you. Best anime thing I got as a birthday present was a spanking new Speed Grapher OP, but that was kinda nifty in itself...
Thanks for the link, NeoSam - the background definitely looks intriguing and the copy makes it seem like it has potential. Now it's a matter of seeing how it comes about. Kemonozume had nifty animation, but I hope this new one exploits the digital medium a little bit more if possible...
Personally I enjoyed Mind Game but was a bit mixed on Kemonozume, nevertheless I'm looking forward to this because it's bound to be more interesting than a bunch of other things there... well, actually probably the most interesting thing I've heard about so far that's airing early 2008. Aside from, perhaps, Gag Manga Biyori 3 but that's because one can never have enough Usami-chaaaaan.
EDIT: Also, since this is probably (I guess) going to be something that won't see the light of day on other channels and may not even get a regular DVD release, I really wish Yuasa could have considered streaming it on the internet as well... Wouldn't it make sense for shows like this to reach that niche audience through an online medium? I dunno...
ArabianSwan
2008-01-09, 10:08
Interesting indeed, will keep an eye on this ^_^; Spring already have many promising shows :eyespin:
Honestly speaking, romance and sexual chemistry are Yuasa’s forte. Even with its silly script I would consider Kemonozume substantially accomplished based on the well executed relationship between Yuka and Toshihiko alone.
thanks for the news!
the splash image reminds me of le petit prince at first glance, but with masaaki yuasa's resume, i know it might not resemble that classic work at all -- i'm looking forward to something entirely refreshing. he's very talented at combining a unique aesthetic with a powerful sense of sentimentality, and he seems to always be aware of exactly what he's doing. so, even when he's laying it on thick, there's an underlying sense of irreverence or irony.
Siegel Clyne
2008-01-10, 04:55
Going by Yuasa's past works, this should be an interesting watch, to say the least.
barbapapa
2008-01-10, 12:10
Brilliant news.
Kemonozume didn't quite live up to the insane level of Mindgame (best anime ever, imo), but I'm just ecstatic to see more by Yuasa.
Definitely going to check this out. Can't wait for more details, see if I can pitch it as another Animeforever/Yoroshiku project seeming as we loved Kemonozume ;x
Yuasa made a little drawing for is upcoming series :
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6529/yuasacolumn02qz3.jpg
http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_02.html
LOL that's some astounding art. :heh:
Yuasa says that the story will take place in a world where memory manipulation has become possible. Which reminds me that kaiba (海馬) means hippocampus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus) in Japanese. It is a part of the forebrain, located in the medial temporal lobe, which forms a part of the limbic system and plays a part in long term memory and spatial navigation...
BluWacky
2008-01-17, 02:51
LOL that's some astounding art. :heh:
Yuasa says that the story will take place in a world where memory manipulation has become possible. Which reminds me that kaiba (海馬) means hippocampus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus) in Japanese. It is a part of the forebrain, located in the medial temporal lobe, which forms a part of the limbic system and plays a part in long term memory and spatial navigation...
Sounds like we're going to be getting someting like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind Game, then...
Hopefully we'll get a bit more info or a trailer as April draws closer. After all, all we had for Kemonozume for months was that one picture of Toshihiko and Yuka.
Concept art from Masaaki Yuasa made at the start of the project :
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/2319/yuasacolumn07pa4.th.jpg (http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yuasacolumn07pa4.jpg)
http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_07.html
New pic which introduce Kaiba's chara designs (source : 2chan)
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8838/vip744688ng1.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vip744688ng1.jpg)
Kaiba is slated to start on april the 10th.
The design art looks old-school and very psychedelic; with only hints of the underlying grotesque ideals behind Yuasa’s art. Intriguing.
It seems to look very different from the Kemonozume art (or my impression of it being full of sketchy lines) on first glance at least. To me (presumably) these Yuasa-drawn image boards for Kemonozume like this (http://kemonozume.net/otanoshimi/imgs/image10.jpg) look closer to the Kaiba image manuloz posted... well that's obvious. I dunno how to say it well but putting Kemonozume's imagery aside I never got the impression that there were grotesque ideals behind Yuasa's art as a whole.
I really agree about the retro thing though, it seems really obvious. I didn't really expect that.
Well whatever it is we have a date and time (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/news/news_2008_02.html) for the how-many-of-us-was-it-again who are actually interested in watching this. 10th April, 24:00... I presume they mean the gap between the 10th and 11th, not the 9th and 10th. Ambiguous timeslots are always good.
The trailer seems to have find his way on youtube :
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DnABB0IegrQ
(source : 2chan)
Thanks for the link! It's a pity it's really short, but from what little there was it seems kinda clean. No shadows though, as one would expect (unless I'm blind.)
I guess it was aired just a few hours or less ago as a TV spot on WOWOW and someone immediately ripped it out...
Yep, i guess so. Chron on Catsuka's board said it was a shorter version of the trailer Yuasa brought for his "Carte Blanche" in Paris.
I'm getting heavy Tezuka vibes there. :heh:
MrProphet
2008-02-28, 03:57
For me, the main impetus for watching Yuasa's work is neither the general crazyness, nor the avant-garde nature of his style, but rather the intense expressiveness and passion he manages to convey even through all the stylistic roughness. Remember that kiss in the shower in Kemonozume? Yikes!
Would anybody be kind enough to repost the trailer? Copyright mafia took care of the old URL already.
Yep !
http://www.dailymotion.com/manuloz/video/x4i12x_k-tvcm_creation
MrProphet
2008-02-28, 04:37
Thanks a lot. As always, one can depend on you, manuloz!
The clip is ok. For now, I've got two major feelings out of it: Kenji Miyazawa (the writer) and Takashi Nakamura (the animator). Cats, this calming, dreamy atmosphere, all of this is highly reminiscent of the Night of the Galactic Railroad or the Well-Ordered Restaurant or Nakamura's Catnapped. And those are very good people to emulate.
Though, I cincerely hope it's not another Cat Soup. Boy, I hate that film!
BluWacky
2008-02-28, 14:35
Plot synopsis from WOWOW runs something like this, excusing my errors from my ridiculously poor Japanese...
(In the world of Kaiba) It is now possible to store memory data, so that the death of your body is not actually "death". As memories are stored in databanks, they can be "transferred" to new bodies. Because so-called "memory trading" now occurs, it is now possible to steal memories and illegally alter them.
Society has fallen apart as authority has become lost and stagnant.
One day, a man awakens in a ruined room. His name is Kaiba. He has no memories, but he does have a pendant with a picture of an unknown woman inside...
In the skies a mysterious cloud of electricity floats, stalking the streets to hunt for memories.
After suddenly being attacked, Kaiba escaped into space, and during his travels meets all sorts of people and regains his memories. Throughout it he continues to be troubled by the world's problems, as well as his own existence. And what of the woman in the pendant, Neiro?
"What am I? Who are you? What are you? Who am I?"
When these two meet again, what will happen?
It sounds intriguing at least - whilst amnesia is a bit of an old chestnut, at least it's at the start of the series rather than midway through, and it does allow for some juicy revelations later on in the series.
I have to say, I really like the art style. It's pleasingly off-kilter, and an interesting direction to take things in rather than Yuasa's usual sketched-out lines. It remains to be seen how it actually plays out, of course.
Thanks for the great effort in translating the synopsis. It reads very interesting. I'll be looking forward to it.
MrProphet returned from the grave? Kaiba has some amazing properties...
Anyway, main cast announced over at http://www.wowow.co.jp/anime/kaiba/
Kaiba: Houko Kuwashima
Neiro: Mamiko Noto
Popo: Romi Paku
Hey, they're normal anime seiyuu. Now excuse me while I go crazy for a moment because it's ROMI PAKU ZOMGw305923)!#$9. Wonder what kind of voice Kuwashima's going to do? Please not the Bocca type of voice...
The character designs are also by Nobutaka Ito - just like Kemonozume, but I guess they went for rather different-looking designs simply because it was needed (although it goes to show how versatile he is too, perhaps).
Sound director is Keiichi Momose (uh... lots of stuff like Ergo Proxy, the Blood movie, and many other Big Things),
music by Kiyoshi Yoshida (TokiKake).
OP and ED are by Seira, the OP is "Never"and the ED is "Carry me Away".
I'm actually very interested in this:upset:
Oh well, another one in my observing list
Trailer from TAF :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YsMKefILVM
MrProphet
2008-03-30, 09:47
Oh, wow...
Now I'll be watching it just to see who has the guts to pull off this kind of style of animation in the XXI century.
Seriously, who produced this anachronism? 8))
this looks like a 4° production.. i don't care if it says MADHOUSE in the credits.. this is 4°.
so are there any reviews of this yet? it started today.
MrProphet
2008-04-10, 14:19
It's not as popular as the other cool boys, so there's nothing to review yet. Patience, patience. 8)
duckroll
2008-04-10, 14:58
More like, it airs on WOWOW, so less people have access to it to capture a raw ASAP.
ArabianSwan
2008-04-10, 15:35
add to that... those who used to cap from WOWOW have done nothing so far this season. Maybe they took the threat about illegal p2p sharing too serious :upset:
duckroll
2008-04-10, 16:00
Errr, no, there's just nothing to cap this season aside from Kaiba. Before this was Ghost Hound (Kaiba is taking over the time slot) and the entire season of that was capped, including last week's finale.
Alright! First Episode Is Out
Haohmaru
2008-04-10, 17:33
^Share I presume?
BluWacky
2008-04-10, 17:58
It's up in pretty good quality on NicoNico.
It's....weird. I think in a good way, but I'm not really quite sure yet. There's this plinky plonky background music that hasn't changed for about five minutes and I've barely understood any dialogue that these random characters seem to be having, but before that there was this awesome action sequence with a one-eyed astronaut ostrich and now Kaiba's frying evil memory-sucking butterflies with pyrokinesis and...
Whu?
I think I loved it. I was certainly fascinated by it - the design of the show is just mind-bogglingly imaginative, and although the plot is quite straightforward to an extent thus far (the whole episode is one big chase onto a spaceship, basically) there's enough mystery of both the conventional plot-hint kind and also of the "what the hell am I watching?" kind to keep me interested.
The OP and ED are beautiful - the OP animation is just plain weird (interlocking hands and characters morphing) but the ED is gorgeous and all done by one person. It's a strange show to judge from an animation point of view because I found myself expecting something like Kemonozume where the art is totally bizarre but the animation is clearly incredible as a result; Kaiba feels like some kind of strange art project in comparison, and the dialogue drops off when the animation takes over; my favourite sequence of the episode comes at the end when the astronaut ostrich is, for some mysterious reason, chasing after "Warp" and Popo on the spaceship and is just hanging off the side of the ship. It just stays there and eventually leaps away, but the pacing of the scene is perfect (especially as you notice a tiny little organism of some kind float into the ship, presumably as some kind of monitoring device) and the eventual falling away of the ostrich is very nicely done.
I'd need to sit through it again with a dictionary to really get a feel for the show as there's a long, scene-setting sequence where various people just wander around going about their daily business while Kaiba sits there completely mute not doing anything which I didn't really get the gist of. Since I'm most probably preaching to the choir on this one, I don't think that anyone who's been particularly looking forward to Kaiba will be too disappointed in it - it's a very interesting first episode and I think it's got potential to be a pretty good show.
I just wish there was a proper raw out!
negativeone
2008-04-10, 18:20
wow I can't wait for this to be subbed or even better license(which is never going to happen). I love the entire concept of the story about memories, amnesia and reality. Shows like these one always to take about a week or so(maybe less) to get subbed, can anyone post the OP or ED???
OP
nLmh5-420jo
Love the OP. Not sure if the really innocent and cutesy visual style works well though.
Caps etc
http://blog.seiha.org/?p=773
Kirarakim
2008-04-10, 19:44
Thanks for uploading the OP on youtube (I love your tags).
Although I had planned to wait for the subs I decided to watch the first episode anyways. Well I am completely lost but I did love the style. I hope someone will sub this.
wow I can't wait for this to be subbed or even better license(which is never going to happen)
Ureshii is doing it. also, there is a strong chance this will get licensed, since it's being produced by Madhouse.
EDIT first episode is on nico: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2959311
Kirarakim
2008-04-10, 19:57
I don't know I feel there are a lot of series produced by Madhouse that don't get licensed. I mean they produce so much.
edit: glad to hear about the subbing :)
ArabianSwan
2008-04-10, 19:58
It will be another F-B_Ureshii joint with Sylf as translator :)
MrProphet
2008-04-10, 20:00
The OP is amazing. It's sort of nonremarkable in the beginning, but when those hands start reached for one another it becomes nothing short of mezmerizing.
For the first time in a long while I am really sorry that I forgot my password to my Moontube account.
PS: Kemonozume is made by Madhouse. Will it get released in the States in the foreseeable future? LOL, no. And neither will 4C's Mind Game.
The old-school surrealistic science-fiction design is mesmerizing. The blob explosions are amazing stuff.
negativeone
2008-04-10, 21:20
Great OP & now that i think about it the character desing remind me of astro boy.
I don't really like Ureshii subs but w/e
anyways, well i dun understand how Mind Game isnt licensed but Dead leaves is. I even think that Kemonozume is out of print in japan. I blame harems and fanservice :P
Kaiba has the best OP song this season imo.
...Evidently, I need to wake up earlier on Friday mornings. :(
*sulks in corner*
duckroll
2008-04-11, 04:48
I liked the animation, but I'm not sure what to think of the first episode. A little weird, and I'm not sure if I really dig the setting. Great concept design and execution though.
Well i've just watched the raw and wow, just wow, that was amazing, i had no idea what was going on but still amazing.
TinyRedLeaf
2008-04-11, 23:59
This is one show where I'm not sure if having subtitles would make substantial difference. ;)
First impressions: Kaiba's art style is decidedly surreal, almost Dali-esque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Dal%C3%AD), especially in the OP. The first episode seems to draw a fair bit of inspiration from the theatre of the absurd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_of_the_Absurd), especially during the scene when random slum members popped in-and-out with their seemingly unconnected conversations. I think the idea here is to create a stream of consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_of_consciousness_writing) effect.
So, from that angle, and given the synopsis BluWacky provided, I guess the show would eventually explore various existentialist themes. As such, the use of surrealism, theatre of the absurd and stream of consciousness fits Kaiba very well, because these art forms were originally inspired by existentialist philosophy early last century.
It's particularly telling that Kaiba doesn't remember who he (she?) is, and that his first words were, "Where is this? Who am I?" These are the key starting points of existentialist thought.
All said, I'm not sure if I would follow Kaiba every week. It's definitely fascinating and I like the innovation (which is badly needed in the anime industry), but the first episode didn't draw me as much as I would have hoped. I get the feeling that this is one of those series that requires a fair bit of reflection and quiet time outside of the show to appreciate. In other words, I would probably want to marathon it over a weekend and then reflect on it, the same way I had approached Kino no Tabi, for example.
How did something like this ever get made? It's a wondrous oddity. I watched this utterly gobsmacked throughout. It's like watching some obscure 1970's European experimental animation. I could easily imagine Takashi Nakamura being involved in this, it has the same dislocated sense of otherworldliness as Tree of Palme. Loved every second of it basically.
It managed to be disturbing (the memory theft scenes) and hilarious (the slapstic Controller chase). One of the most astonishing scenes, perhaps the most touching too, was when that little horned girl put the little bird through the hole in Kaiba's chest. For some reason that really struck me as incredibly cute and sad all at once. Amazing moment that was.
The space-ostrich was simply the greatest character I've seen in years and I can't wait to see Neiro. :p
Watched it yesterday. Fascinating stuff (although I cannot say I was totally hooked). The series seems to deal about memory, consciousness and identity : Warp has lost his memory for some reason, while people in the upper areas use bodies as a vessel for their memories. See also my previous post about the meaning of "Kaiba".
Apart from that, very weird (and cute) chara-design. The dealer (was it ?) much looks like a character from a Tezuka Osamu manga.
So I only finally got around to watching the first 2 episodes of this (desparate measures). And boy, do I feel confused and stupid.
But in a good way. I dunno, I don't feel like commenting on it a lot just yet but it's quite new how the characters are literally not static.
I really do love the visuals and the thick outlines (I haven't seen that sort of drawing in any recent anime, especially since digital animation came) but I have to admit there's something that's not completely clicking with me. It's not that the settings are too weird or complex or bare; normally I love otherwordly sort of stuff (I grew to like Cat Soup), but there's just nothing for my brain to latch on to at the moment. I suppose that's how it's intended to be (or I'm just too used to normal anime now).
Favourite things so far: that emu/ostrich/whatever the hell that is thing, I think it's absolutely AWESOME. I don't know why, I suddenly went all :D-like when it appeared. What is with that funky design?
That, and as Sonhex mentioned the scene in ep 1 with the girl putting the bird in Kaiba's chest. I really like how you feel that she's interacting with him, not just... well... acting according to the script. I don't know how to put it; perhaps it's the bit where she went to the front and bumped her hand against the chain and it made that chain-like noise.
ChibiGoku
2008-04-18, 12:51
There's one thing I want to comment about: I really could've done without those two particular scenes in episode 2. It was embarrassing, especially since there's kids right outside of my window, playing around... I turned down the audio.
Anyways, Kaiba's certainly something that's interesting, especially given the oddball and bizzarness of the series structure. To be honest, hadn't I read the series description ahead of time, I would've been completely lost. I'm still very confused, but atleast I have an idea of what's going on now.
Episode 2 had it's fill of moments for me, especially during the whole hallway scene with the gigantic breasts prostitute. The whole scene made me laugh, hard. Was kind of interested to hear though that the girl in Kaiba's pendent is actually wanted, though I couldn't quite understand for what though.
At anyrate, I'm having some issues understanding this series, and I serously hope that these episodes get fansubbed soon. I understood most of episode 1, but I had some major issues with episode 2. Hopefully then, I can put my full input on this.
BluWacky
2008-04-18, 16:46
Episode 2 is quite silly but great fun - I love how Kaba and the squid thing move, someone's obviously put so much time and effort into thinking about how a giant stuffed hippo would flop around all over the place.
Oh, and breasts. Yuasa's been taking the Kyo-ani pills it seems, those things sure do jiggle about...
My favourite thing, however, is the incredible deadpan episode summaries from the Wowow site. Here's how they sum up one of the more memorable scenes in this episode:
Paam, who bought Kaiba's body, dies in the ultimate ecstasy.
And that's putting it mildly!
I have a feeling that Neiro may have been in the ostrich and is now in the squid (consider its reaction to Kaba checking out Kochu as she's changing...), although why she's on the run I don't know and why Popo's hiding her original body is a mystery (this is, of course, speculation).
I presume that we'll see the "Warp" body again - there are too many mysteries surrounding it for it to just be stuck on a space shuttle with some old geezer wandering around inside its brain. However, if you note the opening sequence what appears to be "Warp"'s silhouette has a glowy antenna thing on its head, which seems to be a separate character according to the show's main website.
Leaving aside the philosophical issues of the whole brainwave/memory/whatever transfer thing, I wonder whether Kaiba's pyrokinesis is a physical or mental power?
After seeing Mind Game and the erotic bits in Kemonozume, no amount of sex scenes and gigantic jugs from a Yuasa show will ever surprise me :)
...I think.
That's some really interesting speculation there, BluWacky - I couldn't have possibly guessed it. I can't even guess anything at all because I'm still rather confuddled, anyway. Meh.
The only thing I realised about Paam not just having bought Kaiba's body, but implanting her memories in it too... I think she did do it; I don't see why a body with someone else's memories would ever bother saying something like "That person is me!". The law enforcement dude whatshisname was saying something about how making copies of your memories are illegal (was it?) and something about the copy eventually killing the original...
Ah, fudge it, I think I have to rewatch this all over again.
no comments about this? the sub came out today. so far i like it, but i could definitely see it as a definitely a polarizing series. the art was very surreal, and whole "memories" thing still has me confused. it kept me interested though.
negativeone
2008-04-20, 20:09
just finished wathcing the first episode, and it was really good but nothing really special except for the abstract(and wonderful) animation. Kaiba is so...experimental that i wouldn't call it anime, it is so different and weird; and even though it is more polished than kemonozume, it is more abstract. i wonder how the story is going to unfold.
anyways, im somewhat confused right now. i dun understand why kaiba has that hole in his chest, and was there in symbolism in the scene when the girl puts the bird through the hole????
I sooooooooooooo want to watch the second episode right now
With those who pointed out how similar the art style is to that of Osamu Tezuka, I was actually more reminded of Shotaro Ishinomori.
Anyway, although I don't really understand what the hell is going on in Kaiba so far, there is one thing I already have fallen in love about the series besides its interesting art style, and that's the surreal atmosphere. I want to keep following this series to get a grasp on what this show is really about, but I have to say that seeing this evolve into a love story will most likely make me feel really warm inside.
Yeah that 1st episode had a lot going on.
So Warp and Neiro are being separated for some reason. Rich people become immortal by having their memories placed in other bodies after death and poor people lose their bodies to the rich people. People also body switch on personal whims.
That is one messed up place.
TinyRedLeaf
2008-04-21, 04:51
anyways, im somewhat confused right now. i dun understand why kaiba has that hole in his chest, and was there in symbolism in the scene when the girl puts the bird through the hole????
One of the governing principles of abstract art is to provoke the viewer to derive his own conclusion about what the art means. In other words, there is no right or wrong answer. Your interpretation is as good as the anyone else's opinion. ;)
I think it's worth asking how Kaiba could be alive when he has a hole in his chest. What does it mean to be alive when you can buy memories and switch bodies at will? What does it mean to have an identity when mind and body are not linked?
I'm not sure if there is any symbolism in that scene where the girl puts a bird through Kaiba's chest, but I do know that I found it strangely touching.
By the way, kudos to Ureshii's sub, especially to the extra effort put into typesetting. It fits the show's aesthetic style very well. :)
Nothing much to say except the first episode was nothing short of amazing. Will definitely watch and anticipate the next subbed episode.
Wow. That was... bizarre. A combination of the old-school and the avant garde, somewhere between Osamu Tezuka and Junko Mizuno.
I fear a lot of people are going to be put off by the style of this one, but from what I've seen so far I'd guess it's their loss. I'll definitely watch more!
Guardian Enzo
2008-04-21, 18:10
I definitely see the Tezuka in the character designs, but the art itself was more '60's surrealism - think Astro Boy meets Yellow Submarine. Certainly different to say the least - I'm not sure if I like it, or even if it was anime. But I'll watch again and see what plays out.
I finally saw episode one and really liked it.
One thing I like about Yuasa is that he carefully and logically unfolds the story here, even though there is a WHOLE lotta stuff going on. It feels real natural with the pacing, he doesn't pull a King Gainer and go BALLS to WALLS breakneck speed rushing through all these important plot elements. He lets them breathe and has the audience sink them in.
I think that's why his "experimental" stuff works a lot better then other works, it's grounded in enough traditional storytelling logic to not be pretentious or alienating.
Anyways I'm on board, bring on some more!
Uh.
I found the second episode to be horrifyingly daunting in so many ways. I don't think I have ever seen a sex scene quite as intense as that between Paam and Warp - hell, it even ultimately resorted in her own death. I knew that Kaiba was no children's show from the start, but this was highly disturbing. Also, Vanilla is a right bastard. Why did cute, poor little Kochu have to get vaporized? Well, I hope those orange memory eggs end up somewhere... *sniff*
By the way, I'm a little concerned about Warp leaving his original body behind. I'm aware by now that Kaiba involves him switching from body to body as he travels, but his original form is rather cute and I want to see more of him in that body.
Also, I can't wait until we finally see some interaction between Warp and Neiro. The 15-second promo gave me that impression, so I'm hoping that they will meet early on. There's only going to be twelve episodes, after all...
Overall I really don't know what to say about this episode, as sexual activity and sadism are very prevalent here contrary to the softer atmosphere that I found appealing in the first episode. Not that my opinion of the show has lowered in any way, but I'll have to keep an eye out for anything that comes this way from now on. I'm still looking forward to the next installment.
SuperKnuckles
2008-04-22, 01:35
I'd expect nothing less from the director of Mind Game and Kemonozume. I mean, he knows how to push the 'truly disturbing' button and there's nothing less than outrageous and truly offensive about them. Violent rape? He puts that in almost everything he does it seems. And on the record, yes, they are always disturbing. Which is the point obviously.
I've never heard of Masaaki Yuasa nor of any of his prior works before, so I just happened to stumble upon this series by pure chance. Needless to say, I wasn't really expecting any of the elements found in episode 2 to pop up in the least. Not that I found them "offensive," they just seemed entirely sudden.
Looks like I'm going to have to hunt out Mind Game.
Easily the most impressive first episode in a very good season (Macross Frontier, Geass, Vampire Knight etc). I'm pretty excited for the rest of this series.
I'm waiting for the subs before I say anything about certain scenes in ep. 2.
this was not bad, although the drawing abit like not said detail, I dun like the drawing, but the story look interesting. Still very blur blur now after watch ep2, continue follow the series.
SuperKnuckles
2008-04-24, 01:43
Get used to that 'blurriness' because that's how Masaaki Yuasa does things. Instead of static beauty, he's ALL about fluidity and motion. Your mind would be blown if you ever watched Mind Game in high definition.
In terms of the 'flowing animation over static beauty factor', they are a step beyond even Studio Gainax in that aspect.
MrProphet
2008-04-25, 15:07
I usually think by association, and since I really have very few coherent things to say about Kaiba even after 3 episodes, I am just going to lay my analogies out for you.
1. Le Petit Prince, by Antoine de Saint-Exupery.
2. Kenji Miyazawa's work. And especially...
3. Night on the Galactic Railroad. Especially the eerie music and large dark surreal spaces the protagonists traverse.
Though, at the same time, the vague and somewhat disturbing sexuality is classic Yuasa. While Kaiba seems to me so far as a sum of above parts, the sinister aura of sexuality is Yuasa's 100%.
But seriously, doesn't the style of Kaiba remind anyone of Saint-Exupery's illustrations of "Le Petit Prince"? I swear to you, the main character is unequivocally inspired by it.
http://krysalide.canalblog.com/images/petit_20prince.jpg
Or else it's one hell of a coincidence, which I frankly don't believe.
Oh, and not that I am angry, I wholeheartedly approve of the connection, but I want to know if I am paranoid or not?!
Also, count me as another one of those people who was touched by the little horned girl in episode 1. It was such a tender, endearing moment, I almost teared up from the cuteness that is so simple, so sublime, so unforced.
And speaking of manly tears of joy... as much as I am mezmerized by the episodes themselves, I have to say that even they simply do not live up to the enchanting magic of the opening sequence. To me it feels like the OP is a completely separate work of art that stands above anything I've seen for a very long time. It really could work as a completely separate piece (like that Shinkai short "Egao"). It has its own style, its own distinctive narrative. It really does tell a story with the imagery!
Its greatness is especially apparent in comparison with the episodes themselves. Seriously, episodes are great, but the OP is something of a different order of magnitude.
Now we're back to that enjoyable atmosphere of the first episode, or at least something like it. To me, episode 2 seemed to just try to be as shocking as humanely possible, but the third episode has expressed genuinely emotional moments.
First, let me say that Kuroniko is CUTE. Too bad about what happens to her early on in the episode... I still cannot figure out why that man killed her, but I guess I'll find out once I watch the subs. At first glance I thought that old lady wanted to steal Kuroniko's body as a means to replace the similarly-looking woman in the portrait, until the flashbacks. I guess long-nose and duck-billed woman have their own selfish agenda for it.
I'm also happy that Kaiba finally got out of Kaba's mute, monotone body, which I never really quite liked due to its inexpressiveness. And, Vanilla actually saves Kaiba - so he has good side to him? He seems to react weakly to any cute little girl, so I'm guessing he's a lolicon - plus, he does not know that that is Kaiba in Kuroniko's body, so meh.
Overall, I truly loved this episode, a huge step up from the previous one. I think it's set that I officially adore this series now.
Oh, and not that I am angry, I wholeheartedly approve of the connection, but I want to know if I am paranoid or not?!
Not at all, dear sir, not at all. The Little Prince was the first thing that came to my mind while watching the first episode, now add to that the whole existentialist theme running around in that episode, and, well, you get the idea.
Episode three accomplished more in one episode than most 13 episode series. Amazing series, this Kaiba.
This is without a doubt my favorite show of this spring.I'll prob drop all others, and just follow Kaiba.Amazing!
Oh wow. I had my doubts about the first two episodes - maybe because I'm just not that used to Yuasa's actual directing style (although I do love his visuals), but episode 3 was a lot easier to get used to and by the end of episode 4 I'm feeling ashamed for not catching up with this faster.
I guess some people would feel that episode 3's a bit of a cop-out given the more conventional sort of story and directing (if you thought episode 1 and 2 were understandable, this is really, really really easy), but personally I was really happy with it - I suppose I'm too uncultured or whatever, but I think it's fine for a show to have episodes like that... (I think I preferred the pacing and the camerawork of episode 3 more, I suppose)
And it's not like the first 2 episodes are worthless or anything, in fact I think they seem indispensable when it comes to really appreciating episode 3 and 4. For example the scene where that guy squeezed out Kuronico's memories and they simply fluttered away like that, never (?) to return - I must've been sleeping in the first two episodes because it's only at that moment that it really hit me. However, I don't think it would've had as much impact on me if it wasn't for those previous scenes of Kaiba seeing the sea of yellow memories and the death of those two in episode 2.
It's not like this show was all that complicated to begin with, come to think of it, it's just the way we go in head-first into a new world in the first two episodes. Once you get the hang of it you really come to enjoy the world as it is. ...Man, I'm slow.
I guess subs for ep 3 would be out soon, and I don't know if Jeiku is going to come back and see this but this is what I got out of ep 3 (I only watched it once.) The brown-haired lady is Kuroniko's aunt, the older lady with the blue hair is Kuroniko's mother who died from an illness.
Kuroniko's aunt wanted her to sell her body so that she and her sons could live a better life - earlier she had sold memories of how to play music to earn some cash, but with Kuroniko's body she could buy those memories back. Unfortunately she didn't realise that with those memories, she had sold off her fond and happy memories with her sister and niece - all three used to play the piano together and draw things, and when Kuroniko's mother died her aunt looked after her like her own daughter, working hard to get her boots because she felt sad seeing her barefoot when other kids had shoes... but she had to sell her memories because with her husband's death and two babies life was getting tough.
All this only started coming back to her as she played the piano (the process of regaining them was already starting during her sleep, when Kaiba looked through them and realised the truth) and in the end she is horrified at how she's lost her dear niece for good simply because she couldn't remember why she loved her.
Or something like that.
And episode 4's production was fantastic - it's been mentioned on WEB Anime Style, but this was an amazing one-man feat. There's been many instances of one guy doing all the key animation for one episode, like Tetsuya Takeuchi's episode 7 of Honey and Clover, but in this episode we have one guy doing the script, storyboard, direction, key animation AND in-between animation.
I don't claim to know that much but it's the first time I've ever heard of ONE guy doing ALL the drawings in the episode (aside from teh background paintings). Apparently it was 5000 drawings, and he finished the episode in 9 months. It's just unbelievable.
Now that you have no excuse to not remember this amazing man's name, it's Michio Mihara. It's also really obvious it's his episode right from the beginning, some of the movements were exactly like those from his other one-man episode on episode 12 of Kemonozume.
And for the record, while episode 3 really did have a nice story I suppose I enjoyed 4's a bit more - perhaps because the relationship between old grandma and the twins was more insightful or something. I loved the conversation in the grandma's brain (and her talking about the twins was positively fascinating)
With this episode more pieces of Kaiba's lifestory are falling into place - now I really find myself looking forward to more episodes. Yes!
P.S. I must be a minority in this but I'll ask anyway - does anyone kinda prefer watching this in SD rather tahn HD? Somehow, I don't like the stark cleanness of the HD captures; and how it seems to take away the depth... I prefer watching it with more blur and noise, I guess. Not like I hate HD but it doesn't seem to work in favour of this show IMHO.
SuperKnuckles
2008-05-02, 04:19
Err...... NO. The HD works fine especially sine Yuasa seems to make it all grainy and colour things in a funky way to begin with. Also, watching the imperfections in high def is a treat, because that just shows that much more of the charm of the animation, IMO. Also, standard def Yuasa anime always had pretty distinct look to it so I'm not sure I can agree that the HD makes it worse.
Episode 4 was good, but my favorite is still 3, at least so far.
The part where we see Kuroniko's aunt's memories being reconstructed was brilliant. As well as the strange yet peaceful landscape when Kuroniko ja Ka(i)ba first meet and Kuroniko talks about her wishes..
It seems from episodes 3 and 4 that the people behind Kaiba are rather familiar with European folk tales, the versions prior to sanitization of death and tragedy. The episode plots have many Grimm-esque elements and the endings are ambivalent; albeit in a more Japanese amasuppai manner.
Err...... NO. The HD works fine especially sine Yuasa seems to make it all grainy and colour things in a funky way to begin with. Also, watching the imperfections in high def is a treat, because that just shows that much more of the charm of the animation, IMO. Also, standard def Yuasa anime always had pretty distinct look to it so I'm not sure I can agree that the HD makes it worse.
Right.Can't see how HD takes anything away from the experience :uhoh:
Anyways
I really liked Episode 3, it's certainly quite a bit different than 1, and 2, but I still enjoyed it as much as the those.I wasn't the biggest Kemonozume fan, but I am loving everything about Kaiba so far.
Zippicus
2008-05-03, 02:02
I guess I'm like the only one that dislikes pretty much everything about this show so far. If I were to sum it up in one word, that word would be unpleasant. I probably wouldn't mind so much if it didn't look like some bizzaro kiddy show animation, it just doesn't seem to fit with the themes presented.
The concept is pretty interesting, I'm just not liking the presentation at all.
Hey everyone,
I just got into Kaiba and I'm loving it.
I got a quick question, i must be really dense for not being able to figure this out but tell me: In ep 3 why did the doctor pop her memories? Was he being paid by the body sellers? by the family? or is he just some sick bastard that likes killing people and no one else is to blame?
Sorry i just can't figure it out and its killing me.
He had no need for the memories, he simply needed the body. Remember the first episode, there are too many memory cubes and not enough bodies. Besides, one can think that keeping the memories in a data cube would have been a supplementary cost.
The show is very mature, and not in a "sex & violence" way.
Kai Yukari
2008-05-03, 13:45
I sometimes don't get the symbolism but I'm attracted to the series nonetheless. It's different from my usual anime fare. I agree that this is amazing.
Hey everyone,
I just got into Kaiba and I'm loving it.
I got a quick question, i must be really dense for not being able to figure this out but tell me: In ep 3 why did the doctor pop her memories? Was he being paid by the body sellers? by the family? or is he just some sick bastard that likes killing people and no one else is to blame?
Sorry i just can't figure it out and its killing me.
He wasn't sick. He did alter her memories so that she wouldn't have any regrets as she was dying and asked for forgiveness. I guss the Hippocratic Oath isn't valid there.
I guess i'm just thinking about it too much. If the doctor erased her just to save money on storage space then i guess the family will eventually come knocking if her chip never arrives. Unless the family themselves were in on it.
Ah well, Kaiba is such a cool anime. All of the technobabble and complicated sci-fi machinery is ripped out leaving a pure and condensed idea. I can't think of a simpler and more straightforward way to convey the abstract concept of memory transfer than a simple orange drop. No hard drives, no giant matrix computer no optical disk, no spiritual energy soul cloud thingy... just a tiny droplet of memory. Nothing purer than that.
The simplistic animation reinforces that, purity of a story to the highest level.
I agree with Maceart, more is done is a single episode of Kaiba than is done in a whole series run of other anime.
SuperKnuckles
2008-05-04, 02:24
As for the doctor, I think he was just taking out her most basic personality. Obviously all her happy memories were extracted and given to her foster mother. Really, as evil as it is, lugging around her basic personality/individuality was just an extra baggage that the doctor apparently didn't need to tend to. It'd be extra cost and extra hassle. I doubt the storage is really a problem from the way people just pop in memories without a worry in the world.
But really, that episode literally made my eyes water a bit.
That strange alien piano just had a lot of emotional resonance I wasn't expecting, and Chroniko's story was just so sad. I can understand why her aunt did what she did because of her dour situation, but that doesn't make the act any less evil. I was both angry and sad at the same time. Weird.
No memories were given to her aunt. They were extracted, tossed out into the atmosphere and went out the ventillation system. You could see the countless memories streaming out that place as you approached it.
I almost think that the aunt knew from the start that this would happen.
It looks like the memories and soul are being extracted with those machines.
SuperKnuckles
2008-05-04, 11:11
I think it's pretty sure she extracted something out of her adopted daughter. I am assuming she at least took only the good memories (not her basic personality, that's different) and the music/misc experiences she had extracted. To me, that is just as low as you can go really. Then again, maybe she had to take out her good memories of her daughter in order to do what she just did. Maybe even beyond all that, she did both.
Those memories that were returned were the aunt's happy memories and not Chroniko's memories. She paid for those with the Chroniko's body. Chroniko's memories and her soul possibly became waste by-product and was disposed of as the doctor told Chroniko before he started the procedure at 7:54-8:08 in the video.
unsurprisingly, kaiba has an immense energy in it which exhibits the cross-cultural power of the fable/fairy tale. for me, it recalls a hint of french animation added to the already-vibrant ideas and designs of masaaki yuasa; the narrative itself is almost noir-ish in its foundations, and the method of propulsion reminds me very strongly of le petit prince.
episodes 1 and 2 are great examples of world-building: show, not tell. we're immediately thrust into the story, and there's literally a great deal of motion and movement, while the quieter moments allow for absorption.
episode 3 overtly exhibits the sentimentality that masaaki yuasa is very fond of, but may have been disguised by stylistics in his prior works. those closing moments are predictable, yes, but no less powerful. it's a deftly-executed story, and likely prepares us for what's to come.
P.S. I must be a minority in this but I'll ask anyway - does anyone kinda prefer watching this in SD rather tahn HD? Somehow, I don't like the stark cleanness of the HD captures; and how it seems to take away the depth... I prefer watching it with more blur and noise, I guess. Not like I hate HD but it doesn't seem to work in favour of this show IMHO.
sorry, i'm going to have to vote for HD. while i can see where you're coming from as an artist's perspective, for me the extra fidelity of higher resolution just better demonstrates the design. and with this show in particular, the unique aesthetic and specific color palettes really reward staring at the screen (not that that's hard to manage, with how riveting the series is thus far).
SuperKnuckles
2008-05-05, 02:56
Those memories that were returned were the aunt's happy memories and not Chroniko's memories. She paid for those with the Chroniko's body. Chroniko's memories and her soul possibly became waste by-product and was disposed of as the doctor told Chroniko before he started the procedure at 7:54-8:08 in the video.
Looking back, I think you are right. I would think her memories were sold off just like the rest of her memory/soul.
Maybe the aunt never really got rid of it but just took it out for the times she trudges through life (I'd guess having conflicting memories and emotions would hold someone back in such a bleak place).
In a way, a lot were still left to the imagination but I think that's exactly what drives this show in a very innovative fashion compared to most shows. Like Issei has put it, it's more of a 'show, not tell'. In a way, that can open up a lot of open speculation just like with Chroniko, but I think the way it just glides through the story is just simply amazing.
TinyRedLeaf
2008-05-07, 10:57
I found Ep3 to be a poignant reminder of how dire circumstances force decent people to do terrible things. In a subtle way, this episode points to real-life tragedies of poor people selling their organs to survive. This happens everyday, more often than many of us realise. Just the other day, I've read news of how Australia is discussing whether to legalise the sale of human organs, so as to regulate the entire process.
People are already resorting to the international black market for much needed "spare parts". If this is the case, it may indeed be good to legalise such transactions, to ensure that they are carried out safely and ethically - or so the argument goes.
I think this episode also suggests that body and memory (aka, our souls) are not necessarily separate. Poor Chroniko may have lost her memories and soul, but part of her identity remains within her aunt/foster mother. In fact, when Kaiba entered the foster mother's memories, he discovered books that were steadily refilling the empty bookshelves. To me, this seems to be a hint that the process of memory transfer/removal is not necessarily perfect. As long as some part of the body survives, there seems to be a chance for remaining memory fragments to regrow.
I'm pretty sure there will be more to explore in this single episode once the greater context is revealed in future episodes. Kaiba continues to be a fascinating show that packs a lot more punch than a page full of tedious exposition.
steelbound
2008-05-07, 20:09
I'm really loving this series and I'm glad that not only at someone is subbing it but it's being done so well. Speaking of memories, I noticed in episode 3 that the two flashbacks of Chroniko receiving her boots didn't agree - one had the aunt's husband in it and the other did not. This has been bugging me and makes me think that one set is Chroniko's memories and the other is the aunts.
Also, I'm having a hard time finding any sort of wallpaper so I decided to use some screen shots to make a few. These two came out nice:
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8468/kaiba02copyqo6.th.jpg (http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kaiba02copyqo6.jpg)
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/2115/kaiba01copy2yg3.th.jpg (http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kaiba01copy2yg3.jpg)
Check my blog (http://thenullset.wordpress.com/) out to see the others I made and read my thoughts on Kaiba.
Speaking of memories, I noticed in episode 3 that the two flashbacks of Chroniko receiving her boots didn't agree - one had the aunt's husband in it and the other did not. This has been bugging me and makes me think that one set is Chroniko's memories and the other is the aunts.
the last set of recollections consists of the aunt's restored memories; the first set is the aunt's damaged memories, inconsistent due to what had been sold or bartered, along with years of blame and guilt piled on. kaiba's digging and the actual loss of chroniko triggers the restoration process, which is so elegantly shown to us in the last minutes of the episode.
Griffith
2008-05-09, 01:54
Has there been any word on when the OP/ED will be released? I've been looking all over for information, but have come up empty-handed.
Oh wow, episode 5 was great as well. And it definitely felt very different again from everything we've seen so far - if anything this episode felt most like an indies arthouse animation flick, if the others didn't already feel that way. I particularly loved the roughness of the lines, I personally like it more than the thicker lines in some other episodes... and as usual, they give the story to us as it is without having to explain themselves, without taking the audience for idiots at all...
This week's episode was brought to us by Choi Eun Young (known by the Japanese fans as ウニョン), the very special Korean animator at Madhouse who worked on ep 6 of Kemonozume and did the whole avant-title bit on episode 10. She graduated from art university doing sculpture, then studied in England as an animator before coming to Japan, where she went straight to being a key animator; obviously you can see why she'd have a different perspective and approach to doing animation from most of the other people in the anime industry, that's an experience you normally won't see... And she even co-wrote the script this episode in addition to directing and storyboarding it all. Wow. ...is all I can say for now, obviously I can't think of anything constructive because someone else will come along and say it 500x more eloquently.
There's a short piece on her by Michio Mihara (the guy who did last week's 1-man episode) here (http://www.style.fm/as/05_column/mihara48.shtml) on WEB Anime Style, he really has very high praise for her and it's pretty obvious she deserves it. It's in Japanese but there's some drawings of her there, see them for yourself...
edit: and I don't know anything about the OP and ED myself either :( Again I'm probably in the small hated minority with this, but I'm not particularly partial to the OP or ED. They're nice but I'd only consider them memorable because of the visuals that go with it.
Loved episode 4, can't believe that was a one man show.That whole sequence when Kaiba steps into Grandma's head till the minute he rushes out was wonderfully done.Every single episode feels like a short feature film, not many studios are able to pull this off.
ChibiGoku
2008-05-09, 17:18
I'll agree with Wao about episode 5. I don't even think words could describe how great this episode was, visually, writing, and animated. It's also something I've never ever personally seen used in a television animation from Japan. The way the scene was drawn and animated during the beginning at the advertisement and fiesta scene was quite interesting as well. In a way, it freaked me out but at the same time intrigued me.
Seeing Warp and Vanilla off scale in the episode was rather interesting. It was wierd to see that the consistancy between scenes with them varried, going from almost borderline offscale blobs to somewhat normal drawings. But given the insanity regarding the whole style of the episode, it didn't feel like it was an attempt at bad drawing, rather creativity.
Also, I noticed Jamie Vickers worked on the key animation for the episode. I saw his name pop up on Maple Story as Design Works, but it's bugging me a bit. Didn't he used to work for Nickelodeon or some english animation company?
But anyways... The story itself, while I was expecting something bizzare, thankfully this wasn't the case. Like with past episodes, there is a sense of irony and sadness mixed together in some of the scenes, especially when the cat (I forget his name, and a bit lazy to relook it up), never realized his assistant was actually in love with him and always watched over him even after death in the body of a toy dog.
The resort itself... disturbed me, on alot of levels. It also disturbed me (and even Warp nearly pukes because of it) that they recycle bodies into anything, including the food that served there. Kind of makes you wonder if you'd consider it canabalism. Another point of interest, it seems Warp is actually developing a relationship with Vanilla, but seems to still care about the girl in his pendent. Still, I wonder what is going to happen when Vannila finds out the truth...
Wao, curious, do you know what else Choi Eun Young has done outside from what you've listed? Seeing this has peaked my interest.
Yuasa did mention to expect a different style of drawing for the different planets Kaiba visits, so I would expect more types of drawing in the upcoming episodes. Although episode 10 seems to be like an "episode 0" of sorts in terms of story; I wonder how that will be like.
I don't have a total record of what she's done, but I remember:
-episode 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, of Kemonozume (key animation)
-episode 6 of Kemonozume (animation direction)
-episode 10 of Kemonozume (pre-title sequence direction, art, animation)
-episode 12 of Ayakashi Ayashi (one darkened fighting scene - shows her touch very clearly)
-Doraemon movie: Nobita's Dinosaur 2006 (section people escape from the water, apparently - never watched the film, so I dunno)
...that's all I can remember! (I added the key animation from info thanks to the sakuga wiki) Argh! Jamie Vickers has done a lot more though, I've seen him doing animation in various places, but mostly Madhouse (I know he did the Tokyo Tribe2 ending) Yeah, it seems like he's moved from the English animation scene to the Japanese one some time back. Ah, I wonder if they only hire foreigners if they've got prior experience/have gone to university... *mumble*
By the way Jamie Vickers is going to do the animation direction next episode, look forward to it (I think it's his first AD job! Wow!)
We'll also be seeing Choi Eunyoung come back in episode 8.
Also did you really think Warp/Kaiba was developing a relationship with Vanilla? I guess if by "relationship" you mean "caring out of kindness" then yeah; Warp/Kaiba wouldn't just completely ignore someone who got sick after helping him in so many ways (and turns out to be a nice person inside even though Vanilla tried to catch Kaiba).
SuperKnuckles
2008-05-10, 03:58
I'm assuming it's one person doing the whole key animation and not actually doing the WHOLE thing? Either way, it was impressive. And it's in high def so there's more room for scrutiny but the scraggliness of Kemonozume was there.
Also, as for ep 4, Grandma's mention of the twins affecting their environment was just so transcendent and the moral of the story was just so perfect. Sure, it's a common theme of not appreciating the dirt under your feet or your homeland, but the episode did it so amazingly.
And I love the acapella in the episode as well. It's like Madhouse is getting better and better at making Yuasa animation, if that was possible.
Whole key and in-between animation, that is. Of course he didn't paint the backgrounds but I don't think I've ever heard of one guy doing 5000+ drawings all by himself in 9 months for a 22-minute commercial animation...
Also I personally think it's just that Yuasa is getting better at using Madhouse for his creations rather than the other way around ;) He knows how to get the right people together and use them well. It helps that the characters and objects in Kaiba are very easy to animate, more so than Kemonozume at least... so even if he only gets so-so staff for things like in-between work it doesn't really matter.
SuperKnuckles
2008-05-10, 04:37
I personally think Madhouse has world class talent and possibly some of the best around... at least as far as the budget and devotion to a particular show/movie is high enough. You see the disparity all the time with the shows that obviously have a lesser budget to ones that do with Madhouse shows. They go from some of the best in the business to downright low-grade-Gonzo caliber.
It's good to see them devote so much to a director/animator with a vision such as Yuasa. It's like the star treatment Sunrise is giving Taniguchi Goro nowadays.
BluWacky
2008-05-10, 08:58
P.S. I must be a minority in this but I'll ask anyway - does anyone kinda prefer watching this in SD rather tahn HD? Somehow, I don't like the stark cleanness of the HD captures; and how it seems to take away the depth... I prefer watching it with more blur and noise, I guess. Not like I hate HD but it doesn't seem to work in favour of this show IMHO.
I may be a bit late to the party on this one, but although in general I like the HD captures there are a couple of moments in episode 3 in particular where the definition of the animation doesn't match the backgrounds. One of the shots of Chroniko's house has smoke coming out of the chimney; the big, bold black outline of the smoke really doesn't mesh very well with the softness of the background art, and in a show as stylised as Kaiba it really shows.
In general, though, I love the crispness.
I'm not quite caught up to date yet as I've only just finished episode 4. Although I love the show to bits, episodes 3 and 4 are very "conventional" compared to episodes 1 and 2 in the ideas they explore. Mostly it's the astonishing visuals that make the show so engrossing, although there are occasional moments when the script rises to the occasion (the bit you were talking about in episode 4, wao, when the Grandma talks about how the twins treat everything; I wondered which idea came first, the visuals or the script?).
I also can't get over how brilliant the ED is. I always seem to notice new details each time I watch - I don't know how I failed to notice the small pink insect wandering around in the rain, for instance - and in both the OP and ED I keep trying to recognise which character is which and failing miserably...
TinyRedLeaf
2008-05-10, 09:51
I also can't get over how brilliant the ED is. I always seem to notice new details each time I watch - I don't know how I failed to notice the small pink insect wandering around in the rain, for instance,
Kaiba's OP and ED are probably my favourites for this season. It's interesting what you mentioned about the ED. In the context of Ep3, for example, I felt the ED could represent memories that grow and branch out in multiple directions - that image of a seed sprouting from the ground into a tangle of vines. It could also represent how people are intertwined to one another. A touch of fate perhaps.
It's also remarkable how simple images like these can conjure feelings of hope.
and in both the OP and ED I keep trying to recognise which character is which and failing miserably.
You're not alone. I think it's deliberate. In a story where bodies and memories are inter-changeable, keeping an identity becomes harder than ever before. Hence the images of characters morphing into various shapes and identities throughout the OP. Everything is in flux. There is no constant.
I really like this show! Ive been waiting forever for a show with such sort of simpler designed fun characters that are still layered and deep.
I think maybe their going for totally different styles every episode? i dont know since ive seen that one ad, but it sort of reminds me of FLCL
Does anyone think a love triangle will go down? I see Vanilla going head over heels for chroniko, not realising its kaiba/warp, and Kaiba's eyes of course always on Neiro.
SuperKnuckles
2008-05-11, 06:18
The thing, of course, being that FLCL was all about an overt sense of style and beating your head with its allegories and sub-themery. Kaiba and other Yuasa anime are a bit more direct, even if it's in a really crazy and totally inexplicable ways. I guess that one part about it being totally inexplicable seems sorta similar.
i imagine that vanilla's purpose isn't to serve as a third point in a love triangle -- rather, he's a foil for kaiba. i haven't watched episode 5 yet, but from what we know: kaiba is shoved into the universe as a soul with a blank slate of memories, whereas vanilla is an agent of the system; vanilla operates selfishly, but kaiba shows an underlying sense of morality as he is whipped from planet to planet, body to body. still, vanilla has not revealed himself to be a villain (completely insignificant note: the two words, "vanilla" and "villain" are not quite anagrams). rather than play the part of nemesis, i'd bet money on vanilla's character arc paralleling kaiba's in some fashion.
I have to agree with your idea issei, that sounds right. Its just you have to judge yourself by episode 5. Vanillas actions seem to shown it went from a meaningless lust to a almost unselfish loving affection. I though still think its very vague at this point, cause we havent gotten to SEE what kind of friendship or relationship they have built up already.
waiting for the next new episode is killing me thought :C cause i cant think of ANY theories for whats up with Neiro and Kaiba and all that, but the current episodes arent leaving us with too much info.
Guardian Enzo
2008-05-12, 22:31
This series has an ability to capture simple moments of poignancy in ways I didn't expect based on Ep 1. As with Shinkai the visuals are what strikes you first, but the emotional truth that keeps you hooked.
The last two minutes of episode 3, in particular, just knocked me flat...
Well, this is slightly oldish news but if you're interested to hear the full-size versions of the OP and ED they'll be sold online from... from today, actually. And there's no news of a CD release so for now it's online-only. There's cover images though so I guess eventually a CD will come out... I don't know where it's downloadable actually, although I guess the Japanese iTunes Store would have it.
Never heard of the artist (Kagami Seira) before, but she's a 20-year-old half-Canadian half-Japanese and has studied in Toronto University at least so it makes sense that she sings in (un-Japanese-sounding) English. She was actually a model before this though (has been once since she was 12)
Doubt anyone here cares though :heh:
can anyone tell me if they aired the latest episode yet? D: i see it on their website but not anywhere else
It's aired, I just guess the usual raw providers haven't foudn it as they relied on the raw cappers who got arrested the other day.
Speaking of airing dates, this is bad news but according to the online Newtype schedule, after next week (episode 7) they're taking two weeks' break ;_;
Two weeks without Kaiba...
Well, at least it'll be during the period when I'm out of the country with no net access :D
edit: Watched the latest episode - it was quite normal but enjoyable anyway. Maybe it seems a bit slow but for anyone interested in more of Kaiba's backstory being revealed, there's a bit more of it here.
I think Kaiba actually meets with Neiro... but he doesn't know it until the end because Neiro's been forced into a (rather large) man's body and calls herself Geru (opposite of Kaiba who was forced into a female body) - they both have to help each other with... certain biological activities, and you see what looks like the first double-sided romantic tension in the whole show so far; it's only when the guy says "You look a lot like someone I used to know - if only I had met you earlier, I would have gone down a different path" and leaves that Kaiba realises it's probably Neiro.
I'm still not quite awake so I didn't entirely get the conversation between the police force dude and Vanilla, but I think Neiro/Geru had been committing terrorist acts on another planet* and there was news that the body she was in right now (a cyborg) had landed on this planet of memories, Roro, but Kaiba told Vanilla that Roro had done nothing wrong and Vanilla covered up for both of them. He looks like he's going to get found out very soon though.
We also see the real Neiro talking to Bobo - the guy in the red suit from the first episode, remember? - at the end of the episode, and from the atmosphere you can tell that Neiro isn't quite happy to be doing what she is.
* - Relistened to it a bit, I think they killed all the bodymakers on Avipa (or... something that stopped them from making bodies, including that cat-dude and his assistant from last episode)
It's probably part of the Issoudan, which was originally just a peaceful environmentalist(?) group that promoted healthiness of the body and mind as well as taking good care of nature but evolved into a more destructive group that aims to release people's memories as a warning to a world wading in too many memories. They're feared by those who hold chips (usually the upper class) but supported by the average person.
Both Bobo and Neiro are aprt of it but I think Neiro associated herself with the old version and Bobo with the new one.
Well here I was guessing Hyo-Hyo was Neiro, but well... I still think Hyo-Hyo must be someone who was originally close to Kaiba, considering it recognized that body this time (or was it just reacting to the very suspicious activity?)
Also we see what I think is that huge tree that grows in the ED - it is a plant also called Kaiba, that eats people's memories up - I don't think I was the only one taken by surprise when it suddenly ate that old woman's memories, and showed it as if the woman had been cheating with a younger person and had sex with him. Kaiba thinks it's made-up but then the grandfather says it's okay like that because he had known about it before. Now taht's one amazing grandpa.
One of the musical motifs of the BGM also appears as a song with words this time, that Kaiba seems to have a recollection of. I can't make out all the words though, because there was talking.
Also, I like the nice symbols they used for the toilet!
Oh, and one last thing - PMS :cool:
thanks!
also a little question from my friend, does memory merchant guy (with the glasses we saw with neiro) appear? my friend really likes him : D
I hope I can see the episode soon at least :C i hope theirs a chance of poor little American me EVER Seeing it
Nope, only Bobo and Neiro. There's only a few characters this episode, the only new ones are the old couple, Geru, weird police dude and... that's it I think
once again thanks for the info! its apparent I have no life besides school : D;;;
Jesus Christ, I decided to rewatch from the beginning after watching episode 6 and episode 1 + 2 make a gajillion more times sense. Now I think I see why people liked them so much, I guess I just couldn't see the well-laid seeds of a good show if they danced butt naked in front of me.
Watching episode 1, I think it seems reasonably clear that Neiro's memory has been kinda split into two - there's one part that escaped with Hyo-Hyo and one part that has had her memories modified, and we see that part again in episode 6. I guess Popo meant it when she "sacrificed herself for a cause".
And Hyo-Hyo's responses in every episode make sooooo much more sense now. Blocking the window when whatshername was changing so Ka(i)ba won't see it, pointing out Kaiba's girlfriend in the necklace, getting particularly embarassed during the self-sex scene with Kaiba's body, helping Kaiba out every time, being so shocked when seeing Geru's body in episode 6...
Now I really feel stupid :p
okay! so i just saw episode 6...
WOW! I wish i could understand more :C but it looked pretty cool and god it was...depressing
I have never seen a CUTSIER anime show a ...sex scene like that...well a shadow sex scene lol. that old man is so adorable :C
all that Kaiba and...new guy (geru?) loving just came out of nowhere for me D:
I admit the main story hasnt AMAZINGLY TRAPPED ME IN but i do like it
its just Vanilla is my favorite lol :/ anything memorable he said? if anyone minds telling me :0
when the other officer was talking about something 'cute' and the little...things kissed and vanilla blushed who was he talking about in particular?
ectomy: The new guy (Geru) is an android/male body, he is actually inhabited by (at least a part of) Neiro's soul - Neiro being that girl in Kaiba's pendant, something was done to her memories in one part of episode 1. So it's a woman in a man's body - hence the title of the episode.
That's why Geru had problems at the toilet, for one thing those Doraemon-like hands weren't of much help and for another she didn't quite know how guys piss, I think - that's why Kaiba (who is a guy in a female body) helped her. (In exchange Geru had probably told Kaiba how to deal with menstruation... well, hopefully his PMS clears up by next episode, poor Vanilla really got the cold shoulder this episode!)
Geru also apologized when she unwittingly put her hand on Kaiba's shoulder and almost kissed him - I think she said it had something to do with the natural reactions a man's body has, but I think she also obviously still felt some lingering inexplicable attraction to this somewhat Kaiba-like person, even if she couldn't quite remember him.
As for Vanilla, when they landed on this planet (Roro) the police dudes were getting together to look for the terrorists (Popo and Neiro) because I think they got a report that they had landed there, but Kaiba had quietly slipped off on his Segway-thing :) Near the end Vanilla had to come all the way across the planet to look for Kaiba, and was shocked to find him there because I guess he knew one of the suspects (Neiro in a different body=Geru) was hiding around here. Kaiba insisted that Geru hadn't done anything wrong and Vanilla had to cover up when the officer came, telling him that the guy they were looking for wasn't here.
However, the officer knew that Vanilla was being sneaky because he interrogated him in a way that Vanilla let slip that
1. there were at least two people in the ship
2. he was going out with someone even though he shouldn't be (or something like that)
The part with the kissing and all was when he was telling Vanilla that he had recently heard how Vanilla was acting sprightly recently; that he had hooked up with a girl (=Kuroniko/Kaiba) and of course Vanilla couldn't help blush etc., especially when the officer said he had heard Vanilla was intending to "score a goal" (I think that was the term used, basically somethign along the lines of getting laid I think.)
He used this against Vanilla shortly afterwards saying that this proves Vanilla admits to the fact that he's been keeping a girl, and that it's an abuse of his authority (maybe he thinks Vanilla's been forcing her to be with him) There was something about him using up his savings or something, I think...
Anyway he leaves warning Vanilla that if he gets caught (for hiding a known suspect) he'll be in deep trouble. And I think he will eventually get found out.
I might have made some mistakes here and there, sorry about that.
thank you VERY much! I appreciate this :>
even if part of him IS neiro im still a little iffy on it! but im just waiting for the story to go along!
i have to say though,
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7342/riverofpeers0.png
makes me think of a river of pee D: i wouldnt want to go near that, even if they said it was something else.
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9144/vanillakunvk5.png
also win :'C his faces made no sense in this ep
LOL, it's just been the two of us talking for a while now, heh. I guess all the regular watchers are either talking on their own blogs or more "respectable" places like AoD/ANN. :heh:
I was just reading through some opinions of Kaiba on the 'net (the last time I looked up other people's opinions on a show was Dennou Coil...) and only now that I've rewatched episode 1 and 2 after watching up to 6, can I see where they're coming from when they say the last few episodes might have seemed a bit "flat".
It's true that episode 1 and 2 were chock-full of fascinating things at every turn such that the latest episodes seem rather barren in comparison. The bewildering array of bodies seems to overwhelm you in the beginning, and we haven't seen anything as high-energy as that chase in episode 1, and everything seems to be explained a lot more clearly now, etc...
But maybe that's just because we've gotten used to the world? Like a baby grows up and finds the world less fascinating than it was... Personally I don't think it's been that bad though - any "blandness" is something I'd associate with the nature of the planets in episode 4 and 6, and in 5 I thought it was reasonably interesting enough. So what if Patch's story doesn't seem all that fascinating, I quite liked the parallels between Avipa and our modern world - and no, I don't think they were as blatant, I'd actually say episode 3 was weaker with regards to subtlety.
Especially the way it seems like a little paradise with free food and cheeky Neiro reproductions but it seems perfectly acceptable that bodies get thrown away and re-made into food.
And I think it's more than forgivable if you consider a bunch of these people are still relative newbies when it comes to directing an episode entirely on their own. It's better than what some entire anime series can accomplish.
Still, I guess I could ask for a little bit more... I dunno, excitement? ...Fun? I guess we'd have to wait and see.
As for complaints about it not adhering to the "main plot", that's something I genuinely never considered as a problem at all - let me ask you guys in fact, am I the only one who expected this to be relatively episodic in the first place and enjoy it like this?
I personally love hearing about all these scenarios within a world like this; I find seeing each person's way of dealing with their unique situation very interesting. (Just like I enjoy seeing each director's reaction to the general material. I'll go out on a limb here and say I would enjoy this series less if it was all Yuasa - not that I disliked Mind Game, but I prefer this approach)
I actually look forward to see what mind we'll look into this week, because they're all so different, and with that comes each person's story and a better understanding of the consequences of this world - things which would've been a little harder to accomplish with a greater focus on the central story. And it's not like they haven't been throwing us hints about Kaiba/Warp's past.
Anyway given the relative simplicity of the story (or rather the lack of overly complicated baggage) I think they should have enough time to conclude Kaiba/Warp's story sufficiently well - I've heard that episode 10 is going to be like an "episode 0"; they apparently started dubbing from that episode to give the seiyuu an idea of the backstory. I figure 10-12 would deal entirely with Kaiba's story, that's enough time to explain the past and settle the future I think.
WELL! as I said before, there would barely be anyone here to comment at the moment if I actually had a life XD;;
I agree, its sorta DECLINED in a sense, not a BAD ONE MIND YOU its just insanley cooled down. I think its more focusing on romance in a sense, and really cooling down. I also agree with the whole 'were getting used to it thing' also prolly due to the latest planet being barren
also lots of old people and sex scenes much? D: I admit it was all well done but id like to see a bit more variety
I bet you near the end well just get SMACKED in the face with an amazing revelation or suprise heh
got some advice to get rid of the link!!! so sorry you guys
ChibiGoku
2008-05-18, 21:45
I'm still here. Just not sure how I can input to the whole conversation. What is bugging me why there isn't many people discussing this series. There are people downloading it, that's for sure. Just no one seems to want to stop and chat about it.
Eh... Not sure what you can do.
TinyRedLeaf
2008-05-18, 22:35
What is bugging me why there isn't many people discussing this series.
Answer: Lack of fansubs.
Much as I would love to follow this series closely, practical difficulties make it tough for me to do so. Of course, this isn't a criticism on the fansub community - I'm happy to get what I can get. To draw an analogy, witness how the Neon Genesis Evagelion (Rebuild) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=34958) thread exploded into popularity once the fansubs became available. Prior to that, the only ones who posted on the thread were those who had watched the movie at cinemas.
But it's been fansubbed up to episode 4... That's a lot to talk about, isn't it? Oh well.
I guess everyone has ChibiGoku's problem of watching it but not knowing what to input in the conversation. I myself had some trouble coming up with something to say for the first two to three episodes...
TinyRedLeaf
2008-05-19, 01:06
I guess everyone has ChibiGoku's problem of watching it but not knowing what to input in the conversation.
That is indeed part of the problem. To be sure, Kaiba's premise of individuality and fragile memories (ie, souls) has already been explored in far greater depth and complexity in a whole slew of sci-fi anime such as the Ghost in the Shell franchise. Frankly, the meme has been done to death and there is hardly anything original left to explore in this area.
Kaiba's strength however, lies in its ability to humanise the theme, much more so than any of its hardcore sci-fi predecessors. The approach remains edgy and experimental, but it strikes an emotional chord in a way that Ghost in the Shell never did.
And then, there is the aesthetic style which taps into a great deal of surrealistic and theatre-of-the-absurd influences. The art style alone gives critics a lot to talk about. But therein lies the difficulty - there aren't too many people who are well-versed in art history to talk intelligently about these influences. Art history is, after all, a horribly boring subject under the best of circumstances. :heh:
If all the excitement over Ep5 and 6 is to be believed, I expect to see Kaiba move into greater heights of artistic fancy. Until the fansubs arrive however, I'm left in the cold with nothing further to contribute.
Guardian Enzo
2008-05-19, 01:08
Well, as for me, I can only post as fast as they sub it! But I'm also still here...
I'm still here too.
Same. Until more subs are released, i'm fine rewatching the best episode so far, episode three.
Only started watching the other day, and i'm totally in love with this series.
ChibiGoku
2008-05-19, 14:27
I'm probably with Wao and Ectomy, who are watching the series from the raws. Reason I might not post my opinion in regards to some things is because my general understanding of the episode can either be severly limited to I can understand just about everything, given my knowledge of Japanese is far from fluent.
I tend to wait for someone to post something to be sure I actually understood the portion of the episode correctly. For instance, I was going to post about Episode 6 before Wao did, but I thought against it, since there were some minor key points I wasn't sure on. Particularly during which Vanilla was being interrogated, which seems to make more sense upon the explination explained about. (I understood the jist of him being accused of hiding a criminal, but I didn't catch about the claim about him hiding "Kuroniko". I knew he mentioned about a woman, but I couldn't quite hear what he was saying...)
Regardless, I guess I can understand everyone's reasons for Fansubs, since majority of people who watch anime probably don't know Japanese. So it does make a bit more sense why alot of people here are not posting. Sometimes the episodes require alot of deep thought as to what it is trying to portray.
At anyrate. I'm getting curious where this series is heading towards. The plant that ate the Old Ladies' memories is a bit interesting, especially since it has the same name as the main character which technically has NOT been revealed in the main plot yet. I have to wonder why they decided to spoil that the main character's name is Kaiba in the cold opening segment, and episode credits. Geru isn't given her real name in the credits, which is a little more strange.
Also, some of the future episode titles are VERY spoilerific. Episode 9's title is by far the most perplexing.
I have to wonder if episode 9's title may indicate that Warp has recovered his memories. I haven't read the summary for it, since I don't know if it has been released yet, but I'm curious what it could be referring to, and who Warp is attacking.
Guess we just have to wait and see.
Also, Wao, about what you said in episode 1 and 2...
I actually thought this would be it. We do see the Merchent doing something with Neiro in episode 1, which may indicate that he did take part of her memories. But I have to wonder why they did that in the first place.
I wonder if they also wanted to monitor Warp's actions along the way, but I can't quite say this for sure. I think we're just creating more questions than answers by doing this. Meh...
the reason for slow subs is mainly because the one group that subs this and has got to it first does a slower more intricate job (ureshii) also its JUST airing in Japan.
I have a hard time explaining this show! all i can do is REALLY agree with TinyRedLeaf, on the way they handle body and memory stuff.
In a way there are some elements that remind me of typical anime but the whole UNDERTHEME and IDEA of it is the real reason im drawn in. (and some of the side characters are just plain adorable :< )
plus the animation is pretty awesome, its just my friend and I noticed how defunct chronikos eyes can be.
also does it bother anyone else that they seem to use the EXACT same music in every episode? or is that just normal?
(my god i capitlize things a lot!)
LOL, it's just been the two of us talking for a while now, heh. I guess all the regular watchers are either talking on their own blogs or more "respectable" places like AoD/ANN.
But it's been fansubbed up to episode 4... That's a lot to talk about, isn't it? Oh well.
:confused: I'm still here I just don't see what theres so much to talk about.I hop in here to give props about an episode/staff involved, but the show itself, not much to discuss.Episodes 3/4 were pretty straight forward, and 1&2 were pretty much prologues.
I'm just enjoying the ride, this will be a short show, not worth typing up all kinds theories on things which will probably be explained in a couple of episodes.
IMO of course ;)
I agree dingo :/ i havent really bothered to download ep 1 and 2...I just have 3 4 and 6. ep 1 and 2 just really hit you heavy with how fragile memories and life is. 3 is the one that KILLS you slowly on the inside with sadness. episode 2 was just a bit of a eye opener
to me, the episodes dont flow so amazingly well but its still good, in its own way.
Kaiba's strength however, lies in its ability to humanise the theme, much more so than any of its hardcore sci-fi predecessors. The approach remains edgy and experimental, but it strikes an emotional chord in a way that Ghost in the Shell never did.
And then, there is the aesthetic style which taps into a great deal of surrealistic and theatre-of-the-absurd influences. The art style alone gives critics a lot to talk about. But therein lies the difficulty - there aren't too many people who are well-versed in art history to talk intelligently about these influences. Art history is, after all, a horribly boring subject under the best of circumstances.
zzzz who needs to know about Dali. Knowing your art history has nothing to do with articulating your thoughts on what you're actually experiencing. I'm glad to hear that this show is taking a more human approach though (only watched first episode) because arguably the most significant flaw of shows like this is that they talk about lot of ideas but never actually provoke a sense of what they're talking about (i.e. Ghost in the Shell). I guess that's why most Cyberpunk materials that explore dehumanising aspects of advanced technology, end up being pretentious.
Hmmh Pretentious :)
Methinks It's a rather overused word.Gets thrown around a lot, and more often than not the party doing the throwing is rather pompous itself.
And very rarely* do they notice :)
but matter of fact is
I've just rewatched episode 3 and it truly was a great episode :)
I guess ureshii/FB guys must be busy with exams, it's been oh so long since episode 4.
*never from my side of the world ;)
VVVV haw, just in time, thanks! VVVV
ChibiGoku
2008-05-19, 21:38
Well, I got a bunch of shots that appear to come from one of the future episodes. Apparently Episode 10...? Anywho, here they are:
(These are possibly very spoilerific. So I warn you before clicking the link.)
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/00.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/01.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/02.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/03.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/04.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/05.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/06.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/07.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/08.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/09.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/10.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/11.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/12.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/13.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/14.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/15.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/16.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/17.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/18.jpg
http://www.sonicfighters.com/AnimeStuff/Kaiba/Episode%2010/19.jpg
Some shots you may reconise in the past TV Trailer, but alot of these should be new.
Methinks It's a rather overused word.Gets thrown around a lot, and more often than not the party doing the throwing is rather pompous itself.
The word pretentious is overused as much as the words 'awesome' 'disappointing' 'terrible'. In think pretentious animes are simply those that throw around lot of ideas and obscure references but never actually demonstrate it when I view it. I can go at length in details why I think GITS or Ergo Proxy or other Cyberpunk materials are pretentious. I can also throw around statements like 'Kaiba is awesome' without needing to go into details why I think Kaiba is awesome. But I always enjoy people who think others have no idea about what they're talking about because such an irony is always delicious.
:D
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind you'd go on for parsecs about why you think GiTS, and other such works of the Cyberpunk sub genre are pretentious buffoonery, but I think the thread would be a bit more interesting if we talked about Kaiba instead :heh: I guess I should have worded my previous statement a little better, I do see how I might have hit a nerve or two :heh:
As to Kaiba Well, this is slightly oldish news but if you're interested to hear the full-size versions of the OP and ED they'll be sold online from... from today, actually. And there's no news of a CD release so for now it's online-only. There's cover images though so I guess eventually a CD will come out... I don't know where it's downloadable actually, although I guess the Japanese iTunes Store would have it.
Do you know where we could order them?
TinyRedLeaf
2008-05-20, 07:41
Pffffft. Prententious, my foot. What's the point of being intelligent if you don't flaunt it? Being humble about being smart is like going around wearing a long-sleeved shirt to hide the rippling muscles you've painfully built up through intensive weight training.
:D :p :joke:
Yes, yes, of course I know how offensive it sounds. But I think I've been quoted out of context and I've been maligned as a result. :heh: I was simply pointing out that those with relevant training in art history would love a show like Kaiba, or even earlier Masaaki Yuasa shows like Kemonozume. The art influences are unmistakable, and these shows demonstrate how sophisticated anime can be when produced by the right people. :)
I was merely pointing out a very valid angle of analysis, same as how many people like to post comments about the performance of voice actors, which I find superflous and pretentious at times. It's as though they're showing off their otaku credentials by flaunting their knowledge about the intricacies of the seiyuu industry (which they're not, of course; they're just contributing their own analysis). :p
Pffffft. Prententious, my foot. What's the point of being intelligent if you don't flaunt it? Being humble about being smart is like going around wearing a long-sleeved shirt to hide the rippling muscles you've painfully built up through intensive weight training.
Heh That's called being arrogant
a douche
someone people don't like being around
Intro to Psycho I/Psycho 101 grads http://i30.tinypic.com/10517p2.gif
Unless of course your group of friends consists of these kinds of people :heh: then I could see where your reasoning comes from.
Pretentious ;)
Superfluous ;)
It's as though they're showing off their otaku credentials by flaunting their knowledge about the intricacies of the seiyuu industry
Aren't you doing the exact same? of another subject of course, but you're doing the same, with an added touch of arrogance nonetheless.
sigh :rolleyes: this is why I often stray from these kinds of threads.I will now take my leave :rolleyes: couldn't help but study some people in this thread :rolleyes:
TinyRedLeaf
2008-05-20, 09:25
Ah, it's curious that a thread about political correctness should pop up in General Chat when something of similar nature pops up here, lol. There is a fine line between pretentiousness and erudition, and if people with valid but pointed opinions have to constantly check their language to make sure they don't offend someone, we live in a sad world indeed.
It's very easy to tell when someone is dropping names just to sound "intelligent" - challenge him to explain what he means. So, rather than going around calling people names for offending your sensibilities, you could do better by engaging in constructive debate instead.
I brought in the references to surrealism because I find it an interesting choice of aesthetic style to portray Kaiba's story. Surrealism was one form of postmodern art that sought to transcend traditional notions of what constituted art, particularly during earlier times when painters were expected to glorify their subjects with hyper-realism, making them seem larger than life. So, by choosing this particular aesthetic, Masaaki was possibly trying to boil the show's humanistic themes down to their rawest possible forms. This, in my opinion, is an important part of what makes Kaiba a highly effective show.
It isn't by accident that a simple scene of a girl flying a toy bird through a hole in Kaiba's chest seems oddly touching in a way we find hard to describe. On the surface, it seems like a straightforward scene. Yet it seems strangely profound at the same time. Personally, I think it's because that particular scene employs elements of surrealism and theatre-of-the-absurd extremely well. I happen to be aware of these elements, so that's why I can find the words to describe them.
So it's not about me showing off. It's about me sharing a point of view that I'm fully aware many people are unfamiliar with. It's a shame if you find it pretentious, but I refuse to apologise for my honest opinion. ;)
TinyRed my friend, I never had a problem with people bringing external knowledge when talking about any form of art and entertainment. It's a healthy thing in fact because what we get out of anime is heaviliy influenced by what we know and value, and it's wonderful to hear what an artist would say and what a playwright would say or what a normal person without art training would say, and we don't need an idiot to bring up stupid questions like 'hm that sounds pretentious...it could mean he is or he isn't...but normally he is...' everytime someone drops in a reference. I'm simply saying you don't need to know history of art to talk about all the wonderful things in Kaiba's art, I think it has the power to enchant anyone who likes these sort of quirky and surreal style. Now if Kaiba was something like Pollock or Mondrian, then maybe people would have to read history of modern art to talk more intelligently, which is why I guess I dislike them.
TinyRedLeaf
2008-05-20, 09:47
Thanks. That is exactly my point. I feel the same way when people talk about seiyuu performances - to me they all sound uniformly good (which is in itself an indication of the high level of professionalism in the Japanese voice acting industry). I don't often see the merit of saying how so-and-so is better than so-and-so, because of the huge list of title roles he or she has performed compared to a relative rookie. That seems more like fanboi-ism to me rather than a critical evaluation of a voice actor's talent. I would be more excited to discover a newbie seiyuu who performs exceedingly well, rather than a veteran who performs true to his or her usual form once again.
But at the same time, I realise that this attitude is perhaps due to my personal lack of knowledge of how Japanese voice actors work. So, I find it instructive to read such comments instead of dismissing them outright.
We all bring different perspectives to a show and I love them to hear them all, regardless of your background. It's how you feel about the show that matters. I don't care if you do not have a college degree in <insert high-faluting subject> to back up what you say, so long as you say it well. :)
before i leave, if you will :heh:
So it's not about me showing off. It's about me sharing a point of view that I'm fully aware that many people are unfamiliar with. It's a shame if you find it pretentious, but I refuse to apologise for my honest opinion.
I don't think you're getting me here, by no means I want you to apologize for your opinions, not at all.I still think you are a rather arrogant person witch douche tendencies(like a certain other person here) this i firmly believe, it's just that before i wanted to keep this thread from derailing any further(too late it seems now! heh!)
and! from your point of view i could see why you'd think your opinion is rather "unfamiliar" or just "misunderstood" ...after all, pretentiousness is often given rise from that kind of thinking, so you see, it all fits, your opinions and pretentiousness :heh:
Thanks. That is exactly my point. I feel the same way when people talk about seiyuu performances - to me they all sound uniformly good (which is in itself an indication of the high level of professionalism in the Japanese voice acting industry). I don't often see the merit of saying how so-and-so is better than so-and-so, because of the huge list of title roles he or she has performed in the past. That seems more like fanboi-ism to me rather than a critical evaluation of a voice actor's talent.
But at the same time, I realise that this is perhaps of my personal lack of knowledge of how seiyuu's work. So, I find it instructive to read such comments instead of dismissing them outright.
Heh, about Seiyuu performance...I guess people are just sensitive to different things. I know most people I hang around with can't tell the difference between Baroque piece and Classical piece, it could be because they weren't musically trained, but it could also mean they simply don't care (or is not sensitive to those particular differences). Same thing applies to paintings or art styles in anime or voice acting or whatever I suppose.
Blademun
2008-05-21, 02:53
I absolutely love this Anime, just wow. I'm really impressed. Just watched all four episodes and I will probably watch them again. Its so artful and human.
Too be honest, the wild artstyle actually contributes a lot. I wish I could explain exactly how it does, but it just does. I feel like I'm empathizing more because it doesn't look totally realistic. It kinda has the same entrancing style Dr.Seuss books seemed to when I was a kid. The reason for this is probably best explained by a psyche major.
It kinda makes me sad this show is: only 12 episodes, not very popular, and not seriously being subbed.
I guess it shows how superficial many anime fans (especially the newer ones) can be. 'Took one look at the 'bad' animation and passed it off. Everything's gotta be flashy CGI battles and lots and lots of vapid fanservice. :rolleyes: :(
Personally I'm sick of all the air-headed anime made now. I miss the edgier days (80's-90's).
I hope posting will help keep Kaiba on the first page where it SHOULD be.
Fellini 8.5
2008-05-21, 13:02
I'll de-lurk and chime in -- I adore this show as well. Once upon a time I almost became a real animator, so like how some of you are seeing a rich representation of art technique, I get a silly grin on my face whenever I see a particularly brilliant bit of movement and timing.
I'm watching it raw as soon as it hits my HD, so many, many thanks to Wao for her summaries! Between those and Ben @ anipages, I'm learning a lot more about this production in a way that I never would if I just stumbled on it by accident.
It *is* getting to the point where the dialogue is more integral to the understanding of the plot, though there are great sequences where the visuals tell the story just fine. Still, the summaries help a great deal to fill in the gaps until the subs finally catch up.
Sorry I missed on the fun D:
anyone see episode 7 yet? :0 it just aired, it seems interesting
Thanks for all the "hi I'm here" comments (...I'm not quite sure if I should be doing the thanking here but well) - at least it's reassuring to see people still hanging around and enjoying stuff.
I actually honestly thought this might be heading into "very limited number of enjoyers" territory with the first two episodes (or that might just have been my inability to appreciate them properly), but I think it's clearly not the case now. And it's really, really heartening to see people give this show a try. Since I started actually paying attention rather than pretending to understand the episodes I think I've really come to like the series a lot - and search actively for others' opinions (if only the show's name was a little less similar to a particular anime character, ahem)
@Fellini 8.5: No problem at all :) I'm extremely glad to be of some help; usually I'm so longwinded I'm surprised anyone reads the episode descriptions I write but if they're of any use to anyone I'm happy.
I've also been slowly making half-baked translations of the Yuasa column on the Madhouse site because some of them are relevant to Kaiba, but I'll post them later.
As for episode 7... they sure ended it at a turning point of the series, which kills me because thanks to !@#$ing tennis on WOWOW, there is no Kaiba for the next two weeks.
I ask you, how am I going to live? :(
Also Vanillaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
This time the episode seemed to rely on the script a bit more than usual so I guess I'd have to rewatch it a bit, but it was largely straightforward. Outside of the dealings with the main character/plot this week's guest planet was kind of... not so interesting? There was a lot of nice action though.
I appreciate you woa!! :)
let me guess, vanilla dies? :C
ChibiGoku
2008-05-22, 23:35
Oh wow, Episode 7 was truely saddening...
I'll agree, the dealing with the actual planet was not all that interesting. However, I was shocked that Kaiba/Warp was responsible for Neiro's death. Though, what he said after seeing this memory, he did not seem to want to return back to that kind of life. However, it surprises me that he would kill the one he loved, especially with the images of the future episode that are out.
Regardless, Vanilla and Warp was honestly, very depressing. Vannila may have been a pedophile, but he did have redeaming qualities to him. While I should've been disturbed by the fact he kissed Warp before tranfering his memories out of him, I wasn't. Infact, it affected emotionally, and made me actually me sad for him. The whole scene after Vanilla and Kuroniko's body flying out fo the ship before being destroyed was also the highlight of the episode. A very emotional and touching scene.
I sometimes wonder, had Vanilla known is was really Warp, if he would've still loved him just the same. I get this feeling Vanilla knew it was someone else in the body, but choose not to believe it. Anyways, I'm probably going to go into a disturbing territory for today's episode if I keep on going.
...Also, the toilets... Did anyone else get idea's in their head when they saw what was in it...?
EDIT: OH and Wao...
It looks like you were right about that tree that you speculated in episode 6. It looks like it is the tree in the ending sequence, given it's shape and form is similar to what is shown in the episode.
However, I was shocked that Kaiba/Warp was responsible for Neiro's death.
I was under the impression that that was one of the memories modified in Neiro's head to get her to forget about or hate Kaiba/Warp... as Geru she mentioned to Kaiba last episode that Warp killed her parents and is the enemy... Eh, I'm confused.
There's Kaiba without the weird halo thing and then there's Warp (the original? With the halo thing) who is said to be the enemy of the Issoudan and seems to be unpopular with people as well... :eyespin:
EDIT: OH and Wao...
It looks like you were right about that tree that you speculated in episode 6. It looks like it is the tree in the ending sequence, given it's shape and form is similar to what is shown in the episode.
Yeah, there isn't exactly any other tree in the show so thats what I thought. Going by the ED though, it seems like it eats all these memories and then releases them in the end anyway. It can't be mere coincidence that it has the same name as our main character (who, for the matter, is only called Kaiba by the narrator, otherwise we wouldn't really know he was called Kaiba)
Speaking of names I'm wondering why Popo gave Kaiba the name "Warp" on purpose; is it because Kaiba is Warp (like Warp lost his memories and the body became known as Kaiba?) or a reincarnation or what... and why would Warp become known as Kaiba anyway, why the same name as that plant? Did Warp do the same sort of thing before (take other people's memories) or is it just a coincidence?
I'm sure there's some very simple explanation for all of this that I didn't even consider, but I'm utterly befuddled. I have to go rewatch this, I shouldn't have gone and watched Macross Frontier...
And I should go watch that spoilerific music video already to see those scenes from future episodes.
ChibiGoku
2008-05-23, 00:10
I was under the impression that that was one of the memories modified in Neiro's head to get her to forget about or hate Kaiba/Warp... as Geru she mentioned to Kaiba last episode that Warp killed her parents and is the enemy... Eh, I'm confused.
Ugh, I forgot about that little bit was said in episode 6. But it's wierd though... Could her memories be false by chance? Maybe they really are true, and Warp/Kaiba really did kill her, and Popo isn't making it up.
There's something that happens in that Music Video, that really raises my suspicions. Something enters into Warp's head, and he seems to be holding his head, then suddenly start screaming out when it does fully enter. This could be either 2 things:
1. His memories were removed when this happen.
2. It caused him to go psycho, for a lack of a better word.
Maybe there's more possibilities, but these two seem to be likely.
God, each episode goes by, and that music video with one of the future episodes, is just raising me more and more questions.
re: ChibiGoku - You have a point there, it could be false by chance or something. Dammit, I don't know... it's all too confusing :eyespin:
And why did he make Kaiba listen to the music on the headphones, was it to try and calm him down or what?
I also only just noticed that the scene of Kaiba pouring that tea in episode 6 is so painful to the onlooking Geru because Neiro once used to pour tea like that before, there's a scene of that in that PV.
Anyway since I'm kinda confused myself I can't summarize the episode really well, but this is what happened in episode 7
Kaiba/Kuroniko and Vanilla land on the planet Nene, where the city is largely underwater. He brought Kaiba there because he heard girls like to see the ocean (and also because its moon, Libera, is apparently an excellent dating spot - hence the crazed imagining and drooling) He takes Kaiba to the port because there's a boat going to the moon and Kaiba reluctantly agrees to go. Strangely, there is a sculpture of Warp/Kaiba's face on the side of the building.
Next, Vanilla's superior(s), which I now know are called "Babo", ask the immigration officer at the planet where Kuroniko and Vanilla are; he replies that they arrived that morning and wanted to go to their moon, but he advised against it because it'd be dangerous. He's told they're not from the Issoudan after being asked, and tells him that no ship/boat has been lent out so Vanilla and Kuroniko probably gave up going...
Pabo then continues with a (IMO) clunky exposition on Libera's moon, something about it being a... er... it tried to be independent? And something about the Issoudan? I think they killed everyone there. The gist is that it's a moon full of dead bodies and their memories, though. (Was it 独立挫折過激派暴戻の砦 or 亡霊のとりで? My Japanese sucks...)
Somehow or the other Vanilla and Kaiba got on a boat to go to Libera (how? They just took one lying around?) and there's noone there when they arrive, but when they go on further they see an exhibition of historical images, some of which contain Warp/Kaiba...
Later Vanilla asks if Kurnoniko/Kaiba liked Geru, and he replies that of course not - Geru was a female inside, and Vanilla tries to beat around the bush asking what Kaiba thinks of him, to which he's told to ask directly... sending him into overdrive, so Kaiba escapes for a bit and wonders what sort of man Kuroniko (the original) would have liked... Geru? Or would Vanilla be OK? (Conclusion: no way.)
Vanilla checks the news and his mail while calming down, and reads that the police have largely confirmed that Geru was behind the attacks at Roro, and they're after Vanilla and Kuroniko for helping the suspect (and that Vanilla's been traced to planet Nene, I think) - and Vanilla is informed by mail that his police authority has been revoked, he's got an order to turn over his somethingortheother and his insurance has been cancelled and taken away...
Vanilla looks at a chip in his hand and apologizes, saying "Sorry, mom... looks like it'll take some more time before I can get you a body".
Meanwhile Kaiba goes into a toilet (what is with that ass-kissing thing?!?!?) and looks through a copy of Geru's memories that he extracted last time. He goes in to see that much of the memories have been painted over, and any memory with Kaiba/Warp has his face blanked out entirely. (Hyo-hyo seems devastated; if Hyo-hyo = part of Neiro's memory then this would make sense)
He looks through some of the memories of Neiro as Geru, such as her approaching Kaiba in Kuroniko's body and almost kissing it, and blowing up the memory tanks, and waking up in the memory modifier's room in episode 1 being told by Popo to get ready to blow up the tanks at Roro with a body equipped with bombs (notice Hyo-hyo saying bye or something - although the face in the mirror looks more like Cheki than Neiro...), waking up with Geru's body and being told that the hands are the bomb equipment and not to mind the inconvenience...
When Kaiba starts looking at a memory with a blacked-out Carbyl (or whatever カーバイル is, that yellow thing that you shoot people with), a machine in a corner of the room starts ticking, possibly indicating the inclusion of memory modification... He sees black-and-white scenes of massacres, beheadings, and Neiro's parents being killed by a menacing-looking Warp/Kaiba... and scenes of Kaiba, such as him coming to kiss Neiro and pouring that liquid darkened severely, with his face overlaid with a evil mask that Hyo-hyo tries to rip off in one frame, partially showing a normal-looking Kaiba, but I guess he doesn't notice this.
He then sees a brief shot of the pendant hanging over his old body's circular void, and is plunged into a darkness in Kuroniko's body where he sees Neiro kissing a falling Kaiba... then a black-and-white evil Kaiba/Warp turns into a clear image (the one with the halo thing on top) about to shoot Neiro's head with the Carbyl and Kaiba's slumped on a side not wanting to look at any more memories. He concludes he has to return to Lala (the planet from episode 1).
Next, the planet seems to have come alive with the memories of the dead people and Vanilla drowns himself in fun, but a bit of clumsiness causes the place to show its true nature and they escape from the hellish place to see Vanilla's supervisors in their funky ships waiting to arrest them. The dead souls come after Vanilla and distract the supervisors enough to let him shove himself and Vanilla into the ship, not before getting hit though.
As they embark on a boat chase through the deserted water-highways, Vanilla tells Kaiba (whom he puts headphones playing the ending song on, I have no idea why) that he used to be the strongest in his village and his body was his pride and joy - he says something about his memories that I simply can't catch (any help here?) and explains how he can simply change his body for a new one any time. (I think during this time he's contacting the memory modifier guy from episode 1 and asking him for his address to prepare for what he's about to do) He's simply in this body for a long time because he's taken a fancy to it. This isn't the truth, however... before Kaiba can say anything, he takes his last chance and kisses Kaiba/Kuroniko - and takes out Kaiba's memory chip while he's at it.
Sadly the last frozen expression on Kuroniko's face is that of shocked disgust at being kissed by Vanilla all of a sudden.
He then takes Kaiba's and Hyo-hyo's memory chips and sends them over - and while he gets hit by the beams of his pursuers, he says that really this is his only body and this is the end of it - and tells his mother's memory chip how he wish he could've shown Kuroniko to her.
The rest is, well, the rest. Vanilla's ship is hit and he dies; the last of his memory holds onto Kuroniko and imagines (?) that he is hugging her and she is smiling back. The superiors go off and the final image is of the tree from episode 6, Kaiba, grown bigger and getting a bit hungry after eating almost a whole planet up...
I repeat, it is frustrating to have to wait until June 12th for the next episode - well at least it means I won't miss any Kaiba while I'm overseas, but gee... even if I knew this from Newtype earlier it's still annoying! I look forward to watching this the most every week! :(
Hmm, there's allready ep5 out ? (at least not on animesuki it seems).
I guess it shows how superficial many anime fans (especially the newer ones) can be. 'Took one look at the 'bad' animation and passed it off. Everything's gotta be flashy CGI battles and lots and lots of vapid fanservice. :rolleyes: :(
I just wonder why... these day's the look (visual appearance) seems to count more than any other aspect of something or someone.
Imo in case of Kaiba the animation is just the package, adding a unique touch, but the series focus clearly on the outcome of the possibillity to transfer mind/soul/memories into other bodies. E.g. if i think about what happens in EP3 it really gives me the creeps.
A wonderfull series, pretty sad and melancholic but very absorbing if you can accept the animation style.
edit: and the total opposite of the "flashy" macross frontier ;) (no offense to macross frontier watchers, im enjoying it myself :D )
certhas
Okay here are some very SPOILERIFIC screen shots for anyone that wants em
these are the last from me because i decided I'm not watching this show anymore
(warning: there sort of big-ish)
I pretty much predicted what was going to happen :/ and i hate shows when they do exactly what I predict
plus im going to miss vanilla :C and the main plight of the characters is starting to bore me. I might continue for the animation and art direction
anyway screenshots
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/9539/gettinhisb5.png
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9250/kaiba1edited1tz6.png
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2721/deepuk9.png
Okay, so here's the half-baked translations of some of the pieces on Yuasa's column on the Madhouse site (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/index.html) that I promised. I only picked the Kaiba-related ones.
Disclaimer: Please do not blindly assume any of these to be exactly what Yuasa wrote. I probably unwittingly dropped more nuances than the French do with their vowels, and don't even have any formal training in Japanese so... here's your bottle of NaCl :)
So, starting with the first significant Kaiba-centric one:
(2008/03/05) #10 - Explain it (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_10.html)
(picture)
Kaiba's first round of voice recording started.
I had the recording start from episode 10 because I figured it'd be easier to understand the characters' situations, but there's no explanation of how the world works except in episode one so it looked like it was pretty difficult anyway.
I've been working on this for so long that I had simply gotten used to it.
When you bring together a whole bunch of otherworldly things, the first introduction always gets pretty long. [1]
I'm looking forward to the broadcast.
The title in this image here is Kaiba in kanji (海馬) only because I thought it looked cooler as a logo; since the beginning it's always been in katakana (カイバ).
[There is a section here about how there was a kanji/katakana problem with Kemonozume's title, but I'm thoroughly confused about the subject of the sentence so I'm not going to translate it in case any misinformation spreads]
[1] - I think I might have severely misunderstood this line, because frankly speaking what's a 異世界物の打ち合わせ? I originally took 打ち合わせ to mean a conference/meeting just like the saku-uchis and stuff animators have to plan out a show, but figured otherwise. Unless he's implying that the staff/seiyuu(?) working on this are so different it's like they're from different planets
(2008/03/12) #11 An Oversight On My Part (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_11.html)
Trace lines in Kaiba
bubble: Sure would be nice if it could be like hand-trace drawings...
is what I said
(But it's impossible with pencils anyway isn't it...)
In the past cels used to be traced on with an ink pen, so nuances like the beginning and end of the lines would show up, and because of this line weight and pen smoothness, characters could take on a very smooth sort of quality.
But now pencil drawings are scanned and used as they are, so what you see are the pencil lines themselves.
Because of that, now all the lines become thin, so to get a thicker line the practice is to draw two lines and have the gap filled in during painting.
And that's how it is
Some time passed, when one day.
(pink thing - Kaiba cut C-201)
I saw one of the in-between drawings for Kaiba and was shocked. A--h!!
There's super thick lines (for perspective) and pen pressure!!
It's like hand-tracing.
I tried drawing it here but I simply couldn't reproduce it.
You can produce this sort of line with pencils?!
(Neiro)
If you're curious about this watch Kaiba
It's amazing... But is the rest OK? Ganbare! <- We're already working hard
I can't draw like this
Note: ★ The lines change depending on the planet
(2008/03/22) #12 Sturdy-armed Kawano and the staff (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_12.html)
The calendar's come
It's a calendar (not for sale) done by Kawano-san from Backgrounds. Continuing from the Jan-Mar one I got at the end of the year, this is Apr-Jun. It just happens to be Kaiba's broadcast period as well, so both the on-air and ending dates are marked on it.
I've been working with Kawano-san since Kemonozume, and during the (hellish) conditions back then he'd make calendars, mobile phone screensavers, sugoroku (<- you can still see this at the Kemonozume site's Download Corner. He made the pieces and the dice. Amazing.), real Ohba Drinks and I had to laugh in shocked amazement.
Oh no no.
It's not like Kawano-san had a lot of free time
He works like a (demon), but when we're rushing around near the finale and he can make these things without anyone expecting them (plus they're quite tastefully done) it does calm one down - and that feeling of having ample time (though we didn't have it) was pretty sweet.
It's kinda difficult to imitate.
Currently I'm busy with episode 1, 2, the OP and ED of Kaiba. I asked episode 10's animation director, Masahiko Kubo, to do the ending. He's like the image of the animator (Nobutaka) Ito used to imagine about in the past, turning out enough drawings to make you swoon. I've started seeing animators around even on Sundays. Working for 4-6 hours straight. It's just a little more till the show goes on air.
I can't wait!!
But first I have to get it made!
(2008/04/08) #14 Kaiba episode 1 (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_14.html)
While we were all busily working
The first airing is almost about to start.
Kaiba!!
In the first episode, the main character wakes up having lost all of his memories. He doesn't understand who he is or what sort of world this is. He gets attacked all of a sudden. Is the man he meets his enemy or ally?
...Oh, so that's all on the official website!
The schedule for episode 1 and 2 was pretty tight so I take off my hat to producer Fujio for his hard work.
bubble: That should be like this, and this should be like that
and when you think he's just talking normally
↓
the next second he's dozed off
↓
bubble: No wait, maybe that should stay as that
he'd say that
↓
and then knock off the next second (this was during the dubbing for episode 2.)
"Ganbare"
is what the character in the last scene is saying.
(2008/14/12) #15 Cat-juice ponzu (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_15.html)
Kaiba's gone and started airing.
Episode 1 provided the Weltanschauung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_view) [1] sandwiched between action. (Ryoutarou) Makihara and (Takayuki) Hamada's animation was outstanding. From episode 2 onwards each story will be told while going on a journey each episode.
The rest of the entry is about a mishap concerning an 18-year-old (?!) cat and ponzu sauce. I think the pictures speak for themselves :)
[1] Sorry, I just feel like sounding like a smartass
(2008/04/18) #16 Second Night of Kaiba (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_16.html)
Maybe it's because it's gotten hot all of a sudden, but a lot of people are suddenly sporting haircuts
Producer Fujio's mobile broke and is making strange noises (karakarakakkakka) like the noise when CDs spin around [1]?
Kaiba episode 2 goes on air
This is the teapot I've been carefully treasuring during the cold season. You could put it next to your desk and have something warm to drink, so it kind of caught on among everyone else.
But it seems like it eats up a lot of energy.
(boiling sounds) left: Me middle: Itou right: (Akitoshi) Yokoyama-san
Just when it looked like Yokoyama-san's pot and mine were going for some synchronized boiling,
BACHIN
The electricity for that row got cut off. For a moment we didn't know what was going on, but it seems like the circuit breaker is arranged by rows...
Anyway,
episode 2 is taken care of under Yokoyama-san
The animation director is (Akira) Honma-kun.
It was a rushed schedule just like episode 1, but (hyo~)
Yokoyama-san managed to link together a plot split over two episodes with an unexpected idea.
As expected!
Among the staff who have little experience in directing [2], Yokoyama-san, who's working from episode 3→7→2→9 is the mainstay of Kaiba's directors.
[1] I think he means when you have those broken CDs that are spinning around without being read (karamawari)... I think it sounds a bit like when hard disks are making dying cries.
[2] I might have explained it before, but note this is enshutsu which is more like timing x-sheets and overlooking the episode's production, sort of
(2008/04/23) #17 Third Night of Kaiba (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_17.html)
Kaiba is not set on Earth but in another universe altogether.
Instead of brains, everyone has little eggs in their heads.
left: Eggs of memories
right: Muscles for thinking and communicating?
bottom: Carbyl (kaabairu, カーバイル)
Since the Carbyl never touches the eggs, would that make it humane?????
Is it a weapon?
Memories are stored in a liquid form, but they can float along lighter than air, like smoke
←Memories are stored in this metal alloy chip, which won't get damaged or fly out even in accidents not involving Carbyls
So, episode 3 - Kuroniko's Boots
The third night, made of Yokoyama-san's blood, toil, tears and sweat [1]
Kuroniko's mother is actually her stepmother and her father was not around.
The background of the other children, and the type of job she did were added into the story, which came to a climax at the end with some action.
Yokoyama-san's episodes end up pretty emotional, don't they.
Itou was supervising the animation for this episode while checking episode 2's layout. Being impressed by the comical movements he could bring out and the elasticity of the visual effects on top of that, I have to salute him for the amount of work he's doing.
(Kozue) Okada and (Masayuki) Ogami are both involved in the music for Kaiba, so we've been trying out various things on the musical front as well.
In this episode Kuroniko's family is supposed to be one of musicians to begin with, and her stepmother gets back the memories she lost while getting back her memories of playing the piano (although it's not supposed to be a one)
That was also expanded upon with the power of Yokoyama Ideas. [2]
← This part of Vanilla is easily mis-painted
It's not a regent-style haircut
Baldy forehead →
[1] Okay, maybe not so much - but he put his full effort into this episode, thats' what he's saying
[2] Someone tell me how to translate 横山イメージで広がります
(2008/04/30) #18 Four (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_18.html)
"This is what the shape of the planet looks like"
Was it when he alone got his script green-lighted earliest, when the main characters weren't even fully fleshed out and we were having meeting over the storyboards?
When Mihara-san brought this along with him.
(The photograph was taken at a later point of time)
Of course, he was the one who made this.
There was a model of the granny's room of memories as well.
I was taken by surprise not only by the fact that he did it but that it was so-well made, and just made a few suggestions to change bits here and there. I just couldn't keep my hanging jaw from staying open. (lol)
(I mean, he's actually made it)
And so, the SS Mihara 4 chugged out of port before anybody else did.
Episode 4 Granny's Room of Memories
I think Mihara-san did the designs for the lighthouse as well. The unique dialogue was also entirely the work of Mihara-san, and because we got some really good acting as well, during voice recording I had moments of goosebumps.
But while the episode itself was well-finished as a whole, I suppose the highlight would be the animation after all?
(There's a spider attacking the cursor I'm using to write this with, it's damned annoying)
Mihara-san didn't draw just the direction and designs, but even until the layout, all key frames → in-between frames all by himself.
The finished work wasn't particularly overwhelming in terms of frame count, but the movements were dense, almost like full animation.
Even though there weren't any real action scenes, did the flashy action music get used because of the density?
Actual spider →
I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's because he drew moving in-between frames. I can't say for sure.
left: Normal tweening
right: When he made it
I think there's a lot of titles out there that won't accept this (right-side) sort of in-betweening.
It'd be good the best to ask him personally.
Would this be of use to people who know the skills of top-class animators and are studying about anime? Mihara-san makes a lot of independently-produced short films.
(2008/05/07) #19 Episode 5 (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_19.html)
I saw this funky milk roll the other day. (I ate it. [1])
This is actually a colour I imagined up
Something about charcoal here, for god's sake I can't read his handwriting
So, anyway
Episode 5 - The Utopian Planet, Avipa
This week's feature is Eunyoung.
Her unrestrained lines and compositions are a sight to behold, but I was surprised by the sheer goodness of her colour sense!!
Yuasa: "Woooow" (computer: colour designers)
The streets were supposed to be colourful from the start, but it surpassed that to become graphic-design like, shiny and with stylish contrasts.
Yuasa: "Woooow"
(During the Backgrounds meeting.)
Right: "That's really smart"
(Kawano and Satelight)[2]
Patch and Kiruto, who appear this week, were actually characters from a project I cooked up impromptu while I was in a certain Kokubunji anime studio in the past. (It didn't come through though)
Back then he was a cyborg created by a mad scientist who died with a bitter hate of the world. He'd scheme things every week to get his revenge, but for some reason it would make everyone better off, and end up making others happy instead. Thinking about it now maybe it was a bit like Dick Dastardly.
I'm afraid I have no idea what he's talking about in the middle, something about a bike - any help here?
So the fact that these characters changed a little bit and could appear on TV makes me a bit happy.
(The other one I came up with got used in Mind Game)
Oh, but when you think about Kaiba as a project, it should be amazing that it's even getting aired on TV, but sometimes thinking about it like that is... I always forget.
[1] Did he? I can't read his handwriting...
[2] Satelight is credited with assisting in background art in pretty much every episode
(2008/05/16) #20 Kaiba Ep 6 (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_20.html)
My weakness is not remembering people's faces well
(or so I think.)
One day I was walking home in the rain in the middle of the night, when
bubble: Smiley hello
a car was following me slowly...
Do I know these people?
Anyway, I smiled back at them.
And then they waited on a side of the road.
Are they going to give me a lift because it's raining?
Have they got the wrong person?
Is this a new method of kidnapping?
Anyway I just walked past them.
Who? Who? ???¿???
Episode 6 The Muscular Woman
This week is the pair of (Kazuya) Takahashi D and Jamie (Vickers) AD.
They're totally different types of people so I was a bit worried but it turned out fine
Relief (Thank goodness)
The dynamic animation was good, wasn't it? There's a lot of unusual compositing techniques used in this series.
(bubble) Babo-chan from this week's episode
Babo(-chan) apparently means idiot(-chan) in Korean
Popo means kiss it seems, that kinda fits
(2008/05/21) #21 Kaiba No7 (http://www.madhouse.co.jp/column/yuasacolumn/yuasacolumn_21.html)
Just when I think I've had a good snooze, I look at the clock
It hasn't even been 1 hour
(Have I had a TIME SLIP?) → or so I think, but rather than that, it just means even 1 hour hasn't passed, but I can't go back to sleep after that (tick tick tick tick tick tick tick)
This continued for days, where I couldn't sleep for more than an hour per day.
bubbles:
I wonder if it's insomnia~
I'm sleepy
I wonder if it's insomnia~~
(slapping legs together)
and when I talked about it... (snooore)
One day I just conked out
and slept for 2 days straight. (Yesterday)
I woke up when I was supposed to check on the show, and had gotten a lot of text messages
Thought I had had another TIME SLIP...
7th Night The Man not in Memories
It's an episode mainly about Vanilla-kun. It says "not in memories" but he's remaining in my memories. I really like him.
There's mecha and action and it gets really busy near the end. Bravo, Yokohama-san! Animation director Itou! All the other staaafff!!
The FX near the end are really impressive. But [1]...
[1] (what's he written here, コワな? I don't understand it :()
Hope that made some sense to anyone interested in hearing from Yuasa :) Yeah, I realise about 50% doesn't have anything to do with Kaiba anyway, but what the hell. Oh, and don't complain about the colours until you've looked at the original articles!
And if anyone's interested in helping me with the bits I don't understand your assistance would be greatly appreciated! Better still, you could rewrite it...
Edit: And I'm sorry to see you drop Kaiba, ectomy, but if you want to there's no forcing anyone to watch it - not like this place will be too active considering the break in broadcast. Oh well. :(
Edit #2: By the way, in addition to the 2-week break thanks to ~*tennis*~, I think they'll be taking another break after that...
If you look at WOWOW's schedule for the next month here: http://www.wowow.co.jp/schedule/sche_anime.html
They only show Kaiba being aired this week, then the next episode on the 12th of June and the one after that on the 19th of June...
Now if they weren't taking a break or changing the airing date, the next episode after that should be on the 26th of June. And that date is not too far in the future not to be covered as they show dates of other anime airing even on the 27th, 28th of June...
But there's nothing!
Uh-oh. First Dennou Coil and now this, why must my favourite shows have so many !@#$ing breaks!! Who the hell watches tennis at such a godforsaken hour anyway...
ArabianSwan
2008-05-24, 19:14
Hmm, there's allready ep5 out ? (at least not on animesuki it seems).
Where did you see ep5 release?
Yah few staff been busy with school and so... then d55 seems to be among those who got arrested so we are looking for alternative raws for ep 6-7 ~_~
Anyway... they will all be out before ep8 airs... *cross fingers*
...then d55 seems to be among those who got arrested...
Either that or too scared to share.
Where did you see ep5 release?
Yah few staff been busy with school and so... then d55 seems to be among those who got arrested so we are looking for alternative raws for ep 6-7 ~_~
Anyway... they will all be out before ep8 airs... *cross fingers*
Either that or too scared to share.
Another site listed YS2..., 92J... and YnX... as being the 3 that got arrested.
Anyways saw ep. 7
What a way to go. :sad:
Episode 06: I was a little bit surprised about the female problems appearing. I didn't think it's something the show would cover, though then again we did have the wacky sex scene in episode two, so i shouldn't have been surprised.
It was shocking however that the girl in giant guy's body turned out to be Neiro. Rather lovely seeing the two together without either of them knowing about it.
Oh yeah, that giant walking yellow beast was awesome.
Totally sucked that Patch and his assistant died in the explosions that Neiro set. But now we know why there were loads of Neiro near lookalikes on that planet.
Maids! Maids! Maids!
2008-05-31, 22:09
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8256/713208uh8.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=713208uh8.jpg) http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/881/757768gj7.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=757768gj7.jpg) http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7457/900596ko2.th.gif (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=900596ko2.gif) http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/3324/828124cz0.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=828124cz0.jpg) http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7600/diarykuronicoga2.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=diarykuronicoga2.jpg)
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/6620/766243pd2.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=766243pd2.jpg) http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4674/879204em1.th.jpg (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=879204em1.jpg) http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7651/868064nc5.th.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=868064nc5.jpg) http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7396/777348fq1.th.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=777348fq1.jpg)
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4968/858069yl3.th.jpg (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=858069yl3.jpg) http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2949/882020kw4.th.jpg (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=882020kw4.jpg) http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9515/766440am5.th.jpg (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=766440am5.jpg) http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7907/kaiba1kuroshuraja5.th.jpg (http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kaiba1kuroshuraja5.jpg) http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7520/b08lz4.th.jpg (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b08lz4.jpg)
SuperKnuckles
2008-06-01, 06:47
Episode 06: I was a little bit surprised about the female problems appearing. I didn't think it's something the show would cover, though then again we did have the wacky sex scene in episode two, so i shouldn't have been surprised.
It was shocking however that the girl in giant guy's body turned out to be Neiro. Rather lovely seeing the two together without either of them knowing about it.
Oh yeah, that giant walking yellow beast was awesome.
Fun with menstruation!
I think they handled it all so deftly, it didn't come across as obscene. I'd imagine it'd be a shock changing bodies every time and apparently the people in the universe of Kaiba are not exactly used to changing bodies either.
PS- Those fanarts are amazing btw. Nice to see fanart of what is possibly the most obscure show of the season.
great fanpics, have been looking around for stuff like that.
Kind of weird that this show is not more popular, one of the best airing now IMHO
Kind of weird that this show is not more popular, one of the best airing now IMHO
I agree that it's one of the best shows airing at the moment, and again i wish more people would give this show a try, though at the end of the day it's not a show for everyone. It's easy to see that.
& yes, absolutely love those fanarts.
Regarding the shows score --- the first DVD comes with the soundtrack. I'll be preordering it pretty soon.
Anyone getting the impression that Popo is actually rather evil? At least dedicated to his ideals at the expense of other values or people.
Geru(Neiro) accuses warp of being evil...
Popo gives Kaiba the name warp.
Neiro and Kaiba having a relationship together.
Geru's life would have turned out extremely differently if she had met Kaiba sooner or a nice person, she wouldn't have resorted to terrorism possibly.
Almost as if this is one of those tragic romeo and juliet stories, where she falls in love with Kaiba the enemy, due to his personality and kindness... and well that will create problems One Accord/Popo.
Solution: Erase her memory of him.
I'm also curious as to whether Popo tried to kill warp in episode 1 before the bird saved him, but after realising that he had no memory decided to send him away instead. Blindspot Fail/10
Two problems to the above:
Whens she(Geru) talks about how familiar Kaiba seemed (vague memory possibly?)
The fact that Hyo-Hyo is around and aware of Kaiba.
Edit: Rewatching episode 1... Now I'm finally understanding that the merchant is the controller behind the bird that saved him! :eyespin:
It's sort of amazing how you can miss minor details of the show and not realise it's all contributing to the storyline!
I'd never have known some of the facts like...
Hyo-Hyo being Neiro
Hadn't it been for people here, it was weird... I wondered where it came from.
Kind of weird that this show is not more popular, one of the best airing now IMHO
What's so weird about it? It has no lolis/moe, no ecchi/pantsu... Quite normal these days I'd say.
What's so weird about it? It has no lolis/moe, no ecchi/pantsu... Quite normal these days I'd say.
I kind of found Chronico a bit moe, or something similar, not in any bad way.
Although I have limited concept of the term.
//
btw why is everyone calling Warp by the name Kaiba? Is he refered to that in the show somewhere I have missed?
For me I get the impression that Kaiba is just the name of the show and refers to "the legendary memory eating plant"
nm, guess I need to start watching the intros of shows (thanks for pointing it out KeroKai).
Still a bit weird though, I mean does Kaiba know himself his name is Kaiba? (rethorical question)
btw why is everyone calling Warp by the name Kaiba? Is he refered to that in the show somewhere I have missed?
Pretty sure the official site for the series has his name labeled as Kaiba. So does Wikipedia and ANN.
btw why is everyone calling Warp by the name Kaiba? Is he refered to that in the show somewhere I have missed?
For me I get the impression that Kaiba is just the name of the show and refers to "the legendary memory eating plant"
Think it's just a reference to the character, we don't really know if he's called warp. Also at the beginning of the episode, unless there's a huge translation error.
"In a world like this, our protagonist, Kaiba, is travelling in another body with no memories of his own."
ChibiGoku
2008-06-01, 18:39
Think it's just a reference to the character, we don't really know if he's called warp. Also at the beginning of the episode, unless there's a huge translation error.
"In a world like this, our protagonist, Kaiba, is travelling in another body with no memories of his own."
Here's what lists him as the name Kaiba:
- The cold opening segment.
- The Ending Credits
- The Episode Descriptions
- The Website (Both Character and Plot Summary)
- Yuasa refers to Warp as Kaiba, if I recall too, on the website blog.
Blademun
2008-06-02, 03:29
Just watched ep 6.
I know that statue in ep 5 looked a lot like Kaiba, more then just a passing resemblance. Popo seems pretty intelligent, he should have seen the resemblance instantly and if he didn't know anything, would've been shocked to see 'the prince' in his home.
But he wasn't. He acted so nonchalant around the stranger being there.
He even calmly named him 'warp' which happens to be the name of the prince.
However, the series refers to him as Kaiba, the origin of that name is not specified at all in the show itself so far, its just implied all over the place (intro, credits, ANN, ect). It could well be that Warp is not the prince's real name. It's really Kaiba.
For Kaiba to change his name to Warp as a prince, there had to be a reason..
Its really interesting to see all the transformations this..entity, 'Kaiba' has gone through in 6 short episodes. He's: been a prince, been a fugitive, been a boy, been a doll, been a girl, been a terrorist(assumed), been a chip(in-between moves) and who knows what else. He/she/it seems almost transcendent of the body (edit: and identity). Which, if you've ever read Nietzsche..is pretty significant.
(NOTE: A lot of this is based on assumptions and theorys. Please don't take it as fact or spoiler. I could be totally wrong. LOL)
Its really interesting to see all the transformations this..entity, 'Kaiba' has gone through in 6 short episodes. He's: been a prince, been a fugitive, been a boy, been a doll, been a girl, been a terrorist(assumed), been a chip(in-between moves) and who knows what else. He/she/it seems almost transcendent of the body (edit: and identity). Which, if you've ever read Nietzsche..is pretty significant.
Its fun to have a show where what you think was the definition of identity, memory+body is not tied to identity in any way.
To have someone lose both and still be considered the same person, and live in a world where those things are swapped, sold or stolen all the time.
Besides (I presume) having the same body for a bit, Kaiba has a pretty loose connection with whoever he was before.
//
The connection between Kaiba and Neiru in this episode makes one wonder: If your a dude in a girls body, digging a dude (or rather robot) with the mind of a girl, are you a lesbian? j/k
Pretty philosofical show I guess, can't wait for translation of ep 7.
That was a outstanding episode. From Kaiba learning the truth about some of his past, to learning that Gel was Neiro --- then you have the last five minutes or so. The second the chase started i had a sinking feeling that Vanilla was to die, though it went out in such an epic style. It's pretty crazy how much my opinion can change on just one character from his actions in those last five minutes of the episode.
I couldn't stop the tears from falling in that scene, very emotional.
But is it really the truth that he learned? Maybe this is like Rashomon where we have an embelished view from one perspective and not the "truth".
Also, there is tar all over the place. This goes beyond not wanting to remember and more like there's a serious block put in her memories.
Since we've seen more than 1 version of Neiro, maybe there's more than 1 version of Kaiba. This version is running around and another version is in charge.
Since watching episode 07, i've been reading a few blogs, and yes i'm gonna keep that thought in mind. My mind at the time of watching episode 07 was focused on Vanilla's scene, so i closed of all other though regarding what happened before that.
NoSanninWa
2008-06-03, 03:57
I admit I was rather shocked by Vanilla's death scene. He was a throughly unprincipled ruffian who didn't seem to care about anything except for Chroniko. He didn't even really know Chroniko since they never had an actual conversation and he still loved her enough to die for her?
Ironically, when he died holding Chroniko's empty body he was holding the only part of Chroniko that he loved. Yet he could tell himself that his love was true since he had just done something heroic for the spirit that moved the body. The ironic part is that the spirit that he had just banished was always intervening between himself and the body that he was in love with, so by rescuing her he was actually getting rid of his obstacle even though he wasn't aware enough to realize that fact.
SuperKnuckles
2008-06-03, 04:21
Wow. I totally dreamt up that Vanilla was going to die just yesterday evening
Then again, the story does seem to go pretty fast now. I hope the end game has a lot of surprises as Yuasa anime tends to do.
Aquillion
2008-06-03, 04:49
I admit I was rather shocked by Vanilla's death scene. He was a throughly unprincipled ruffian who didn't seem to care about anything except for Chroniko. He didn't even really know Chroniko since they never had an actual conversation and he still loved her enough to die for her?
Well, not totally unprincipled. He did seem to care about his mother, at least, judging from the fact that he carried her memory chip around and seems to have been working to get her a new body.
Also, there is tar all over the place. This goes beyond not wanting to remember and more like there's a serious block put in her memories.We know how it got there. Back in episode 1, we see Popo entering her memories with large buckets of black paint to literally paint over them. He says it's for her own sake "and for our future", which could mean anything.
Some people have implied they think that his edits were what made Neiro think Warp is evil, but I don't know if we can really draw that conclusion...
The nastiest memory there, of Warp grinning wickedly as he kills Neiro himself, shows no hints of tar or any signs of editing whatsoever. Of course, there's something weird on Warp's head in that memory, right where the memory chip would be inserted... who knows what that is.
But more importantly, look at the shape of the 'mask' painted over Warp in each of the other scenes -- it's not some generic paste-over, that big tall coil of hair that was painted into every picture of Warp is very distinctive. For some reason, there are happy memories Neiro had with Warp that Popo painted over with himself.
As bad as that looks, though, I'm not personally inclined to say that Popo is evil (although he may be fanatically devoted to his cause). He did seem to have intended to get Kaiba out of the picture for for good (he said as much in Ep. 1), but he did so without hurting him. This also strongly implies that Popo doesn't consider Kaiba to actually be Warp, since everything we've seen suggests he wouldn't have let the real Warp off so easily. It could be that simply the fact that he's lost his memory is enough to make Kaiba consider him someone else (the way this world is, it's not so surprising); or it could be that he's actually someone else.
Additionally, we don't have any reason to doubt his statement that he was editing Neiro's memories for her own good (there was nobody to hear but the doctor, and given that the doctor is helping a known terrorist it doesn't seem likely that he'd have to convince him of anything.) At least, he believes that. It could be that she wanted to forget Warp -- something horrible happened, or whatever, and she knows she's never going to see him again, so she asks Popo to edit him out.
Perhaps the doctor was a romantic and made a scan of her memories (which Popo specifically warned him against doing), put it in Hyo-Hyo, and sent it after Kaiba so they could be together. Or perhaps Neiro asked him to do it.
This is all speculation, of course... the one thing I am confident about that doesn't seem to have been brought up here is that Popo definitely appears to have been trying to paste over Neiro's memories of Warp with himself. Which is kind of a nasty thing to do on the face of it, but we don't really know enough to know if he had his reasons.
Oh, also. If Hyo-Hyo really is a copy of Neiro (as it claimed in Ep. 2), does that mean that it's going to try and kill her? Later in episode 2, someone mentioned that copies always end up trying to kill the original... if it's true, that would make Hyo-Hyo's search for Neiro in the database in Ep. 6 rather more ominous.
As bad as that looks, though, I'm not personally inclined to say that Popo is evil (although he may be fanatically devoted to his cause). He did seem to have intended to get Kaiba out of the picture for for good, but he did so without hurting him. This also strongly implies that Popo doesn't consider Kaiba to actually be Warp, since everything we've seen suggests he wouldn't have let the real Warp off so easily. It could be that simply the fact that he's lost his memory is enough to make Kaiba consider him someone else (the way this world is, it's not so surprising); or it could be that he's actually someone else.
Perhaps the doctor was a romantic and made a scan of her memories (which Popo specifically warned him against doing), put it in Hyo-Hyo, and sent it after Kaiba so they could be together. Or perhaps Neiro asked him to do it.
The only real connection we have is that warp has the same symbol that Kaiba had.
My reason for thinking Kaiba really is Warp. From episode 1...
When the monster came towards Kaiba in the first episode. It almost looks like Popo aimed directly at him. No?
Popo shouted "Wait!" when the bird saves Kaiba. This indicates that they aren't working together.
Kaiba has innate special powers to kill things (Papallion master) and most likely defend himself. Would make sense that there's a huge explosion around Kaiba when he wakes up, and a small gun in the room.
Popo finds out that Kaiba has no memories. He sends him away and smiles to himself at the end. "He won't be coming back"
We later find out that the doctor is the controller of the bird. He also happens to help Neiro by putting her memories into hyo-hyo.
The doctor isn't working together with Popo as a friend.
The fact that hyo-hyo likes Kaiba(Warp) and Geru doesn't shows that something has been changed. This can only mean that Kaiba didn't kill Neiro or that she has already forgiven him in the form of Hyo-Hyo.
Episode 7...
It appears as if Kaiba really is Warp there with all the same hat and everything.
Having said all that, it doesn't make sense that Popo would call Kaiba, Warp.
Kaiba would only search up who warp is... but perhaps he didn't anticipate things like this to occur.
Oh, also. If Hyo-Hyo really is a copy of Neiro (as it claimed in Ep. 2), does that mean that it's going to try and kill her? Later in episode 2, someone mentioned that copies always end up trying to kill the original... if it's true, that would make Hyo-Hyo's search for Neiro in the database in Ep. 6 rather more ominous.
Interesting... I think they'd restore the proper memories(hyohyo) or at least combine them.
We know how it got there. Back in episode 1, we see Popo entering her memories with large buckets of black paint to literally paint over them. He says it's for her own sake "and for our future", which could mean anything.
Some people have implied they think that his edits were what made Neiro think Warp is evil, but I don't know if we can really draw that conclusion...
The nastiest memory there, of Warp grinning wickedly as he kills Neiro himself, shows no hints of tar or any signs of editing whatsoever. Of course, there's something weird on Warp's head in that memory, right where the memory chip would be inserted... who knows what that is.
Neiro's memories have been altered so anything that she remembers must be taken with a grain of salt.
If the good memories are pasted over with someone else's face and the bad memory is intact that goes a long way in labeling Kaiba as the enemy. Plus her parents were also shadowed over except for the faces so that you can't see the bodies. You could wonder if that was really her parents. It's all taken out of context and new associations were being formed that labeled Kaiba as the enemy.
Take for example the guillotine scenes. In a totally bizarre case, that scene could have been taken from a movie that she watched or a book that she read unrelated to Kaiba at all and used to further the anti-Kaiba sentiment.
Plus that attachment on his head could be a mind control device. Basically we need to see Neiro's and Kaiba's full set of memories to get to the bottom of this.
Oh, also. If Hyo-Hyo really is a copy of Neiro (as it claimed in Ep. 2), does that mean that it's going to try and kill her? Later in episode 2, someone mentioned that copies always end up trying to kill the original... if it's true, that would make Hyo-Hyo's search for Neiro in the database in Ep. 6 rather more ominous.
Didn't that only work for the exact copies? Hyo-Hyo would only be considered a backup in her current form. Her memories should be merged with the original and the altered memories disgarded.
Aquillion
2008-06-03, 20:52
Hey, I, uh, noticed something else. Look at about 9:22 in episode 7, near the bottom of the frame.
Not every picture is of Warp painted over with Popo. The one on the floor there looks like it's Popo (holding a blade in a threatening manner) painted over with Warp. That's a lot more ominous, really. Also, the fact that Hyo-Hyo freaks out on seeing the state of the other Neiro's memories isn't a good sign, either.
On the other hand, don't forget that Neiro was a famous terrorist even in episode 2 -- it doesn't seem like she's doing it just because her memories were altered (there wasn't enough time by then).
I'm inclined to think that Popo has reasons for whatever he's done. The person we've seen overall doesn't seem like someone evil -- he does honestly seem to be trying to help the people who are suffering as a result of the current system.
Also, I'm curious about the doctor. He seems to be a more important character than he seemed at first, even though he's only had a few seconds of screen time overall, and no lines.
He seems to have released Hyo-Hyo to help Kaiba on his own initiative. But he's also shown as cooperating in the plots to blow up the memory tanks (he was the one who put Neiro in the explosive-armed body), so he seems to be on Popo's side overall. And to add to the confusion, at the end of episode 7, it looks like Kaiba is being transferred to the doctor's lab -- given that Hyo-Hyo was the one who entered the destination for that, it implies that the doctor is someone Hyo-Hyo trusts even after seeing the number that was done on her own memories. (The fact that Hyo-Hyo was sent by the doctor might have something to do with this, but still.)
Could the doctor be Neiro's father? That would explain why he's on Popo's side to an extent (because Neiro is); it would explain why he sent Hyo-Hyo (because he wants Neiro to be happy), and it would explain why Hyo-Hyo felt that the doctor could still be trusted. Assuming the bird was also the doctor's creature, it would explain why he wanted to save Kaiba in the first place -- because Neiro loves / loved him.
One last thing that's been bothering me: Kaiba's locket. It's not a normal portrait. The picture is very noticably blurry, as if it was snapped unexpectedly -- or by a security camera or something similar. You also can't really tell from the expression on Neiro's face whether she's happy or angry. I wonder if that means anything.
But all the terrorists are doing is driving up the prices which would put more pressure on the poor. So it's not helping them at all in theory.
Also, if she was blown to bits, how was she able to remember it? Her memory should have been vaporized at that distance with nothing to salvage.
Aquillion
2008-06-04, 15:35
But all the terrorists are doing is driving up the prices which would put more pressure on the poor. So it's not helping them at all in theory.Well, we don't know too much about how the system works yet overall, or about Popo's long-term plans, but...
First of all, from what we saw about the memory tanks, it's not hard to see why they'd want to blow them up. The memories in the tanks seemed angry and suffering; One Accord's description of them as being imprisoned seems fairly accurate. Understanding why they blew up Abipa is more difficult...
I think their goal is to destroy the entire system, to make it stop functioning entirely. They do seem to have a specific moral objection to the collection of dead memories (they talk about 'freeing' people from the memory tanks). But also, while blowing up the body-creation plant will drive prices up in the short term, yes, remember that the cop-thing pointed that out in noting that there's no way the attack could be concealed.
Why would the people in power want to conceal it? Easy. The system couldn't survive if it was the way Popo described it in episode one everywhere, with only the rich benefitting from memory transfers and using it to steal the bodies and memories of the lower classes -- we know it's like that on Lala, because we saw it, but there's no way you could have a stable society that was like that everywhere.
Instead, while the rich pay heavily for the 'natural' bodies of the poor (or just flat-out steal them, as we've seen), most of the middle class buys cheap synthetic bodies from places like Abipa.
What will happen now that Abipa is shut down? At first, sure, the government can just blame the terrorists... but when people in the middle class start aging and dying because there are no more bodies available, that's going to put more and more pressure on the government. Since your class in this world is basically a function of whether or not you can get your hands on more bodies (the only currency that really matters, since they guarentee immortality), no matter what the government does, without places like Abipa they're going to have to push more and more people into the 'lower caste' -- natural bodies are just too limited a resource if the upper castes want to continue living indefinitely, especially if they want young and healthy ones. This will result in a larger and larger lower class like the one on Lala.
At first, yes, more people will suffer, but I think that One Accord's reasoning is that in the long run it will make the memory transfer economy unstable, and public anger as bodies become increasingly scarce will result in harsher laws restricting it.
I don't know if I agree that it'll work, but that's the only reasoning I can really think up for them to be attacking Abipa...
Of course, it could also simply be that they agree with Patch, and have a moral objection to people carelessly discarding their natural bodies for synthetic ones.
(I didn't say Popo's reasons are good ones; he is a dangerous terrorist, and Neiro may have killed Patch and Quilt at his instructions. But he seems to be doing it for idealistic and not selfish reasons, at least from what we've seen... his concern for the lower classes on Lala seemed genuine, and we saw that he is very popular with them. Of course, a cynic might say that the things he does to help them -- delivering water, say -- are just to ensure that he can get more recruits...)
Also, if she was blown to bits, how was she able to remember it? Her memory should have been vaporized at that distance with nothing to salvage. Vanilla implies in episode 2 (when he shot the two stowaways) that if you've been converted to the chip system, being disintegrated by that gun will not be fatal. And in episode 1, we see someone shot; his body is disintegrated instantly, but his chip falls to the ground unharmed. That is presumably what happened to Neiro -- the guns seem designed to not harm chips.
Blademun
2008-06-05, 18:40
I just had a funny thought. Since 'death' only really happens if you haven't been coverted to the chip system, I wonder if the goverment treats having a body like our goverment treats having a car.
The analogy: In America, the ability to have and drive a car is considered a privilege, not a right or necessity. However, due to a number of factors (hiring practice, city design, social conceptions, ect), not having a car is akin to being 'dead' in the Kaiba sense IE: immobile and useless.
Being shot in Kaiba is like having your license revoked.
paste over Neiro's memories of Warp with himself.it didnt seem to me neiro and popo are lovers? last scene of the episode 6
neiro: i did it as you ordered
she was looking outside of the window
popo: you sacrificied yourself for our future.
it is so confusing. if popo edited all of neiros memories why didnt they act like lovers?after editing memories popo is lover and warp is evil.am i missing something.
neiro is going to kill wrap then she will realize they were lovers and kill herself. i hope we wont see something stupid like that
also sory for bad english
Aquillion
2008-06-05, 21:09
paste over Neiro's memories of Warp with himself.it didnt seem to me neiro and popo are lovers? last scene of the episode 6
neiro: i did it as you ordered
she was looking outside of the window
popo: you sacrificied yourself for our future.
it is so confusing. if popo edited all of neiros memories why didnt they act like lovers?after editing memories popo is lover and warp is evil.am i missing something.
neiro is going to kill wrap then she will realize they were lovers and kill herself. i hope we wont see something stupid like that
also sory for bad englishI was kind of wondering that myself. It could be that the replaced memories aren't particularly convincing, or it could be that Popo's goal wasn't to make her think that they're lovers, but to help her forget Warp (and putting himself in at certain points was just easier / more effective than erasing them completely, since it left her with a narrative that made sense instead of big blank spots.)
Remember, we still have no idea why Popo really changed her memory, aside from his (possibly true, possibly not) statement that he was doing it for her and for 'their future' (the future of their organization? The future of the two of them personally? The future of the poor on Lala? The future of everyone? Who knows.)
...we should have a lot of things explained in the next episode, though. From the looks of it, Kaiba is getting transferred back to the memory doctor from episode 1; he seems to be the one person in a position to put everything together and explain it.
Also, the doctor clenches his fist at the very end of episode 1... he seems angry or frustrated about what Popo is doing to Neiro's memories, although he doesn't do or say anthing to stop it (beyond releasing Hyo-Hyo, most likely.)
Two other things I noticed from Episode 1, although I don't know if they're important.
First, Popo has a locket around his neck that looks almost exactly like Kaiba's. Coincidence?
Second, Popo seems honestly not that worried about Kaiba (taking him through the village, casually explaining things to him) until they're attacked by the Papillion Master. Popo says that that guy was trying to take Kaiba's memories, so they have to run and get him off the planet, and everything else is a frantic rush. Well, that makes sense, doesn't it?
No. No it doesn't, not if you slow down and think about it. Everyone in the lower part of the planet is at risk of having their memories stolen. What happened there that suddenly made Popo freak out?
I can think of a few possibilities.
1. Being attacked is common, but being attacked by a Papillon Master (whatever that is) is rare and significant. Of course, this leads to the question of why Kaiba was being targeted -- sure, the rings on his chest mark him as important, but that would be a reason to try and steal his body, not his memories. What important thing could he have in his memories?
2. It's a setup. Popo just needed an excuse to get him off-planet. Still, the reaction seems genuine to me, and Kaiba had no memories at that time... it seems like a lot of trouble to go through when Popo could've just said 'hey, we're taking you off-planet' and it would have been fine.
3. It wasn't the Papillion Master that made Popo freak out. Instead, he freaked out because he saw Kaiba use pyrokinesis (or whatever that strange ability he used was.) What if that ability is something that only Warp, in Warp's body, can use? Popo wouldn't have thought anything of finding someone in a body with rings on it (in this world, even if it's a bit odd for him to have a body that looks like the prince, it could mean anything.) But when Popo saw that, he knew he had the real deal on his hands.
...also, I'm curious about Cloak. He looked like an important character... if we're going back to Lala with the next episode, we might seem him again.
The OP and ED lyrics are beautiful, unfortunately I'm not too impressed with Seira's singing voice. She did an adequate job but didn't deliver the impact that can cause me to be emotional, which I think the songs intended to do.
Stormblazer
2008-06-07, 16:10
Seems like I'm one of the few that loved the first ep completely, right off. Not many animes leave me with the feeling "Holy shit that was awesome" right off the first ep, that's for sure.
It wasn't confusing to me either, it made sense, which is perhaps what adds most to the surrealism.
ChibiGoku
2008-06-11, 14:24
...You know, while waiting for the next episode it air, I was just recently watching the opening animation. I... noticed something. This is regarding the Hyo-Hyo theory.
This might have been mentioned before, but I was just watching the part of the opening where it shows Neiro and Kaiba, starring at each other. Each side reflects the body that the two end up in. Kaiba shows Kaiba, Kaba, and Kuroniko. However, looking at Neiro, it shows her own body, Geru, then Hyo-hyo. I think that pretty much confirms our suspicions.
I'm not sure why I never noticed this before. It's at 42 seconds in the opening sequence.
It's welcome back to Kaiba after waiting for 3 weeks with nothing! And I have to say the latest episode is not bad either.
Just a note that it features almost no Kaiba though, mostly Popo, Neiro and (finally) Cheki, plus the two guys next to Popo on this character sheet: http://journal.mycom.co.jp/photo/articles/2008/03/12/kaiba/images/02l.jpg (Dada-sama and Sate, another guy in the Issoudan)
There's also another character Kichi, voiced by the same guy who did those twins in ep 4, Tetsuya Iwanaga (I'm 100% positive there's no connection) - I can't figure out who it is in the episode though...
The dude with the pipe and mantle from ep 1, as well as that awesome bird, are back too!
So yeah, it's mostly Popo and co., but considering we've hardly heard from them for most of the show I have no problem with this at all. And by the end of the episode we're to see what finally happens to Kaiba and Hyo-hyo anyway.
The memory dude is going to put Kaiba back with his original body; I think it's clear that that bird belongs to him or works for him or something, because it stole the original Kaiba body with a hole in it and he said "I'm going to put you back in your original body".
Hyo-hyo is also obviously Neiro now I think, because he referred to Kaiba('s memories) as Hyo-hyo's "boyfriend".
Ugh, I'd rewatch it right now if I didn't have to go for an outing...! Anyone who watches this, please also tell me I'm not the only one who... ...wanted to do something very nasty to Popo. I can't believe he could do that to his mother with a straight face. She changed into a (now malfunctioning) robot body to buy him a new, healthier body when he was young, but because he cannot let anyone know that he's actually changed bodies (and therefore has a chip), he pretends not to know her and has her sent off to the scrapyard...
Popo can seem really silly compared to Sachi, who could see through it all and actually thought of keeping Popo's mother's chip - though I don't entirely trust him yet; I'm not sure if he might just kick off Popo once he's at the top too. I kinda want to trust him though, I got a nice feeling about his character this episode.
I need to rewatch the part regarding that copy Warp though. I know that was a fake Warp, someone who made a fake body and is obviously someone else (it's voiced by Yuko Sanpei) and that guy from ep 1, Jakuchuu or whatever, figured it out and tried to taunt him with the real Warp body with a hole in it (he's been trying to replicate it but none of the copies can substitute the original)
In the end the fake Warp kills Jakuchuu and runs away though... is this correct?
ChibiGoku
2008-06-13, 05:02
Well...
You aren't the only one who wanted to do something to Popo. I was really upset and disgusted with how he treated his mother. However, at the same time, I could understand why he did it. Hadn't he done so, it would've ruined everything for him. But, it did bother me that he didn't even show any concern during the entire scene until after the fact.
This episode was a headache for me, because it was heavily dialogue uttensive. I couldn't quite understand what was going on in the beginning during the meeting. I know Popo says the guy has betrayed them, but I couldn't quite figure out as to what he could mean by that. Was there anything specifically said in the dialogue that I'm missing, because Dada-sama destroys the guys memories, from my understanding. I also see that Popo gets really uncomfortable during the whole meeting during this part.
To be honest, I wish I could help you on your question, but I was lost as well. Typically, I don't have trouble understanding an episode of Kaiba, but this flew over my head. I couldn't quite understand the dialogue in several spots, and the visuals did not help my understand at all. It sucks not being fluent in a foriegn language, and I wish I had a way to improve my Japanese more than what I know right now.
My guess is, given the nature of the scene, he wanted to possibly get rid of the fake Warp that is going around.
Ugh. I'm going to rewatch this episode either today or tomorrow, and hopefully it's more clear to me then.
The bit with Takehiko being branded as a traitor, and afterwards when Dada-sama pulversies his body is because he made his sister's memories into a chip and changed her body otherwise she would die. He wanted her to be happy - but Popo chastises him, saying that the use of interchangeable bodies and memory chips is against the ideals of the Issoudan (sorry don't know what it's called in English). Takehiko pleads, saying that he thought the Issoudan's aim was for people to be happy (or something like that), but evidently it is different...
Popo feels extremely uncomfortable and goes to the extent of letting his mother die like that, because he himself is using memory chips and it would be a great scandal.
I have to go now, if anyone else can elaborate...
Kirarakim
2008-06-13, 08:11
Okay this is probably a stupid question but I am a little confused about something (and maybe I am supposed to be confused).
Do we know if these are the same character or two different characters yet?
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y15/Kirarakim/char1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y15/Kirarakim/char2.jpg
I assumed they were the same, but maybe I shouldn't assume that.
edit: I just watched episode 8 and now I am even more confused (probably should have waited for subs)
What is with all the different Warp bodies?
From what I gather and correct me if it's wrong...
Top one = Real Kaiba
Bottom one = Fake Kaiba
Hyo-Hyo = Original Neiro prior to the episode 1
Neiro 2 = Altered Neiro after episode 1
Fake Kaiba killed Original Neiro but Real Kaiba and Neiro 2 (one sleeping with Popo and doing the bombings) doesn't "know" the existence of Fake Kaiba and still thinks that Real Kaiba killed Original Neiro.
Popo might have been trying to hide the existence of Real Kaiba from Neiro 2 making Neiro 2 think that Real Kaiba = Fake Kaiba and the cozy relationships were with him so that she would do his bidding and be his girlfriend. This also suggests that Popo knew the existence of both Kaiba prior to episode 1.
I'm waiting for the subs before I pass judgement on Popo. But right now, I feel that Popo is the lowest form of life and deserves a very slow and painful death after our hero and both Neiro beats him to a pulp.
Kirarakim
2008-06-13, 09:33
Thanks Orion that makes a little more sense. At least about Kaiba. I am still somewhat confused about the different Neiro's but maybe subs will help with that.
About the Warp bodies, I'm kinda confused myself too, but from what I gather (this is entirely my own understanding of it, I could be horribly wrong) the one who was having a shower and was talking to the mantle-guy (from ep 1) at the table, is a "Warp Copy" (that is the name in the credits). To tell them apart you look at the expression and most importantly the voice; in Kaiba the trend has been that they use the same voice for the character whatever body they're in. Many characters have androgynous kind of voices, but listen carefully to the Warp Copy's voice. It's voiced by Yuko Sanpei... If you hear someone sounding like Renton that's the Warp Copy's voice.
The Warp Copy is a normal human with no special powers, probably some elite or something, who is put there in place just to have lots of power. She/he has no idea about the real Warp's memories as shown when questioned by Jakuchuu (the mantle-guy), and as shown by him removing it like a stamp, that mark is also a fake. Most importantly Warp Copy's body is not invincible, it bled when it was shot - whereas the real Warp's body could withstand anything. (Important question here: what the heck was it that created that large hole, then?)
About the numerous Warp copies in that one place, it seems like those are all copies of Warp's body that Jakuchuu has been collecting over a period of time. (If i understand correctly his whole collection is literally that - he keeps an eye out for bodies and buys/steals them; he does not make them ala Patch. And he likes human-form bodies.)
He said something about how he couldn't understand why the "palace" (kyuuden 宮殿) created so many "successors", but after having caught the real Warp body with a hole in it, he realised why: out of 2000 bodies, only one would possess the real qualities such as an invulnerable body and the mark from birth (that is why Jakuchuu was so desperate to get the body after seeing it in the bar in episode 1.)
Now having understood that Warp's body is imitated widely, it follows that the reigning "Warp" is using a lousy fake body, and the three Dada-samas (why are there 3 of them? To help fake the miracles? One stretches out his hand and the other shoots with a carbyl?) probably have been using fake Warp bodies that have aged. There might be others out there... but the only real one is this Warp with a hole.
It seems like that triangular sign is a sort of mark of the elite (as reflected in the "higher areas"), and possibly something ancient or something.
Furthermore, when Popo and co go to that hall of funny whirring things near the end, one of the Dada-samas say that it's technology from 2000 years ago...
Considering all that, now here's some speculation from out of nowhere.
Knowing now that there is this sort of "lost ancient technology" aspect to the story (please correct me if I am mistaken), I am guessing that Warp is a remnant of part of this ancient time, and that mark is part of it too. Perhaps there was an original Warp long long ago, and since then there have been "generations" of Warps (they make a lot of bodies and pick one suitable successor). By this I could mean 2 things:
1. despite the body being invincible, there have been ways to kill it (hence why there is an effort to find a new body even though the current one is still around) However, the memory remains behind as a chip (perhaps Warp is the original being to have memories in a chip) and as it goes to a new body, Warp is "reborn" knowing nothing, but the old memories are still there, just locked.
2. The body has always been invincible and the current body is the same one from ages ago; however the memory may get flashed after a while and a new one comes about.
I am guessing that the Warp that Neiro spent time with as seen in the PV, goes by "Kaiba" during that period, wearing that reduced outfit perhaps because he is completely unaware that he is Warp?
God am I confused.
EDIT: Alternatively
3. There has only been one real Warp from long long ago, and at some point he stopped being the real king and just became Kaiba, who interacted with Neiro and did all that stuff in the PV. To fill up the empty position there have been many people using Warp copy bodies and doing evil things however, but the Issoudan and others probably had no idea that those were fake Warps and think that it's the same one... Then at some point Kaiba's memories got locked for some reason, and now he's like this.
Perhaps if that memory of Neiro's parents and herself being killed by Warp is real, that is not actually the Real Warp (=Kaiba), but one of the impostors like the current one voiced by Renton Yuko Sanpei. Except originally she knew the truth and could tell them apart, but now she doesn't?
There's another part where I have a bit of a problem catching what they said. When in the room with the 2000 year-old technology, something is said about how they were practically lost if not for being preserved in this chamber (?). What does Popo's comment about "we were working to raise money" and "it's not a dream" have to do with it. I'm assuming he thinks these giant things can really kill Warp once and for all, unlike their futile efforts until now.
And when they go into that white room presumably full of memories I haven't a clue what's going on. What's with the cryptic "Someday it will emerge into the sunlight" (if I heard correctly) referring to the Kaiba plant? Popo says these are all the "memories of copies" (copy no kioku) - I don't quite get it. Copies of what? Argh...
Oh and as for Hyo-hyo I think rather than it being a copy of Neiro's memories, it's like a... section of them? There's only two Neiros right now. One is inside Hyo-hyo, quietly thrown in that little body by the memory dude in episode 1 while he was modifying the other Neiro, kept in the original body (you can see him splashing the black censoring paint in her memory rooms). That Neiro I presume has had her memories made into chip format, so for dangerous missions she could get into a functional body (see Geru in episode 6), but for the most part she is in her normal one.
What seems a little contradictory is that I thought the Issoudan publicly frowned upon use of interchangeable bodies and memory chips (to the point of having Takehiko killed as an example) yet Neiro is probably using a memory chip... I guess in her case it is being hidden too?
Also I think that "Kichi" guy listed in the credits as voiced by Tetsuya Iwanaga is probably the name of the memory modifier from episode 1. Come to think of it he hasn't spoken at all (except for a silent "Ganbare")
Well, I guess this episode can be described as "the answer to some questions are just more questions". I guess that's what Kaiba's about. :) For some reason though despite the confusing bits about this episode, I've come to think that it's feeling a little more like a conventional anime now (in certain areas, certainly not in others). For better or for worse, at least. Or perhaps I have just gotten used to the storytelling.
Kirarakim
2008-06-13, 15:03
I think it might just be you need to wait and watch to find out. I am guessing most things will become clearer to us once the show is finished (and in my case subbed). Although I am sort of glad I am not the only one who is confused. I thought maybe I missed something
I've come to think that it's feeling a little more like a conventional anime now (in certain areas, certainly not in others). For better or for worse, at least. Or perhaps I have just gotten used to the storytelling.
Well I don't know I guess it depends on what you think is conventional. I admit I didn't really like the story in episode 2 when it felt really out there but ever since episode 3 I thought the story was something I could relate to or emphasize with. I think its really the execution more than the story of Kaiba that makes it unconventional but the story is still interesting (and hey it still has us all speculating).
The biggest difference between the earlier episodes and now is at first Kaiba had more of an episodic nature (with Kaiba meeting a new character every episode and hearing their story) but now the overall plot seems to be developing.
Though I don't like to speculate, my understanding of the last bit of exposition from episode 8:
The idea of having a "Warp" always in power is a system of control over the populace. I'm not sure when or why "Kaiba" aka Warp 1.0 broke away from the system, but I'd wager it has something to do with Neiro. Masaaki Yuasa loves love stories, so I believe everything will come full-circle to focus on that relationship, and how Popo does or doesn't fit into it.
As for the memory chamber, I thought the memories were those of the Warp copies, being used to feed the Kaiba plant.
I really can't wait to see how the rest of the series plays out. The storytelling found a structure very quickly, but I think it would have been too jarring otherwise. And because of the tone and aesthetic, I find it difficult to compare Kaiba to the rest of the season's crop.
Fun fact(?): Dada seems to be a reference to the art movement of Dadaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada).
ChibiGoku
2008-06-19, 12:56
God, just finished watching episode 9. Even though it was dialogue utensive, it wasn't anything that didn't go above my basic level of Japanese.
I have to wonder what the hell was wrong with Neiro. Was it her anger that was controlling her, or was it something that Popo had asked to be modified in her memories?
I guess I misunderstood the episode title. I thought it meant that "Warp Attacks", rather than "Attack Warp". That shows you my knowledge of Japanese. But regardless, looks like alot of theories we had ended up being right. Hyo-hyo was indeed Neiro, and had her true memories. My only question is how they're going to restore their memories together. Also, looks like that really was Popo's face attatched onto Kaiba. From what Neiro said, it seems that she seriously thought it was Popo that she was in love with. Interestingly enough, most of Neiro's memories appear to have returned, but it seems that her real ones are still divided into Hyo-Hyo, making me wonder what's missing in the equation.
My respect for Popo just keeps dying. I had some minor respect still left for him in the previous episode, but what he did in today's episode completely made me loose any for him. I can't believe he would modify his own sister's memories. I also can't believe that he tried to have Kaiba fight against Neiro as well. I'm still wondering as to why he wants those two to fight so badly and destroy Kaiba. It just doesn't make any sense.
I'll put more of my input later, but this is just the things that struck out with me. All I can say is alot happened in this episode.
Whoa! That was an intensive episode.
Waiting for the subs. Popo is a bastard and deserves a painful death.
BluWacky
2008-06-19, 16:15
Accursed WOWOW! There's a three week break until episode 10!
I know they ALWAYS have breaks, but they're not usually this long (I remember Trinity Blood and Scrapped Princess both had a couple of breaks but they were only about a week long - I can't remember if Ergo Proxy or Kemonozume went on hiatus at all, and those are the only big WOWOW shows I can remember watching over the past few years...)
Interestingly, though...
Virtually all the scenes from the trailer for the show appear to have been taken from episode 10. Had Yuasa et al almost finished animating the show before it even aired?
Turns out I was right about the repeated 2-week break, it was reported in that schedule some weeks back...
Blame sports. First it was tennis, now I think it's volleyball - have to go confirm at 2ch. I think it's volleyball.
I mean what the hell, another 3 weeks... and just before the crucial episode 10!
If it wasn't for those blasted breaks I could've finished watching Kaiba before term started again! Curses...
And bummer, I just missed the upload at a certain place before it got deleted. I knew I should've woken up earlier today!
I don't know about whether they had finished animating almost the whole series before it aired, but since episode 10 is known to be a flashback, an "episode zero" of sorts and it's the first episode they got the seiyuu to voice (see Yuasa's column), I guess they just worked on it a little faster? Since it's only 12 episodes perhaps it wasn't all done in chronological order. I can imagine ep 4 at least having been finished way before the others.
Oh well, look at the bright side. We'll have subs by then and we can revisit Popo's actions until then.
But ending on a cliff hanger and having to wait 3 weeks for a resolution truly sucks. :sad:
On Popo:
What makes him feel like a true antagonist is that he believes his actions and his course are completely justified. We've only had brief glimpses of his past with Neiro and his little sister, but I'd venture a guess that his motivation, at its core, is unrequited love.
On Hyo-hyo in episode 9:
That shot of Hyo-hyo holding the gun at Neiro was priceless: both comedic and incredibly touching at the same time because we know with complete certainty that if Hyo-hyo were to kill Neiro, she'd be destroying her own, genuine, original body, and more than that, some piece of her memories/soul. In a way, that specific moment of the confrontation embodies everything that I enjoy about the series as a whole.
Okay, for some reason I wasn't all that satisfied with this episode - maybe it's something I'll get used to on the second time, but somehow... it seemed a bit contrived in some places? Or like they're having dialogue explicitly for the purpose of explaining certain bits... I mean okay, that's pretty normal in any sort of show, but it seemed kinda awkward here. I don't know what it is exactly that left me a bit unimpressed.
For one thing I'm wondering why on earth Popo didn't just kill Kichi right there when he was trying to tell Neiro the truth? Then he wouldn't have to force Neiro to stick with her modified thoughts. I felt kinda uncomfortable during the whole "Don't shoot him! He's your lover" scene, it felt like it dragged too long (who am I to make any comment though.)
And is Popo making Neiro do all the dirty work (particularly shooting Kaiba) because he wants her to suffer, suffer and suffer? Because otherwise I don't see why Popo would purposely want Neiro to deal with Kaiba... It would have taken much less time and hassle if Popo himself had done it.
Oh and minor question - so is Sate really female? Because when Kichi saw Sate he said "Aneki" (elder sister) and then said "If it's for another guy you'd betray even your own younger brother, would you?"... but in a previous episode she (?) said "ore". Eh, well half the characters in Kaiba are really androgynous to begin with...
EDIT: Yeah, and how can I not forget the obligatory "I hate Popo for what he did to Cheki!!11" thing. No really, I'm not being sarcastic but that was just... evil. Shows he's pretty determined in what he wants to do though. When Neiro approached Cheki and she had no idea about what was being asked, I just felt very, very sad :( (I'm a sucker for situations like that)
BluWacky
2008-06-22, 09:42
Right, I'm caught up now...
How much of Neiro's past is a fabrication? We know that Popo made Kichi paint over "all of her happy memories with Kaiba with Popo's face, and all of her sad memories with Kaiba's face".
Do we take that (excuse the pun) at face value? The clarity of Neiro's memory of "Warp" shooting her seems too real, somehow; whilst the shadowy grin that she remembers (and Kaiba's own "painting" of such) suggests that it's made up, I think that one of the Copy Warps could still have been involved. Neiro bodies were available in their thousands on Abipa, so it's always possible she's in another one.
Clearly Kaiba will not be dead - we already know that the REAL Warp body cannot be harmed, and there's no indication that his memories have been destroyed. One wonders, however, what exactly is so important about keeping all those memories stored away; just how many Copy Warps have there been?
I also have a private little suspicion about what happened to Neiro's parents. In Neiro's memories, it looks suspiciously like their heads have been pasted on to the Kaiba plant's "blossoms" as it were. My completely batshit insane theory is that they're not dead - they've just had their memories eaten by the Kaiba plant, possibly the one floating in the main royal chamber, and perhaps this was Kaiba's doing to protect them rather than to kill them. I don't understand the significance of the plant otherwise, nor the cryptic comment wao mentioned about something happening when "it sees the light" - especially given that the main planet Kaiba is set on (can't remember the name) is shrouded in permanent cloud cover...
It's fun to speculate, but in reality who knows? I'm glad that the plot's kicked into gear and that it's enjoyable. Kaiba feels to me like someone sat Yuasa down and told him to make something commercially accessible, or at least made him plan things out properly beforehand; the plot makes sense, it's not full of holes, and the style of the show is consistent whilst still being individualistic, rather than how Kemonozume was all over the map.
The first DVD comes out on Wednesday with a box and the soundtrack CD. I'm very, very hopeful this means it'll have the full versions of Never and Carry Me Away on - because they're only available on Japanese iTunes otherwise, and getting stuff off there is such a pain in the arse for those of us who, strangely enough, don't live there...
Kirarakim
2008-06-22, 20:53
Still haven't watched 9 but watching episode 8 subbed helped clear up a lot of things.
About Popo:
Oh Popo is the type of villain I love, I actually think he isn't truly evil just really misguided. And it is interesting that he seemed like a nice kid from that one flashback we saw of him. So something must have changed him into the Popo we have now
And about the Warp Bodies
Still really confused by this even with subs but I guess something happened to the true Warp (the one with the indestructible body) and his memories were stolen or stored away. This led the fake evil Warp to take over the throne and things got messed up in the world where the rich exploited the poor.
And while I am sad this series is going on hiatus (stupid Sports) at least it means the series won't end so soon. I am going to be sad when it is over. It is definitely my favorite series this year (not that it has much competition). Hopefully it will have a satisfying conclusion.
Was this posted yet it's the PV of the opening song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKP5Fag0FMg
Well, I guess either myself or someone else mentioned it somewhere else, but I'm pretty sure that the Kaiba that eats all those memories eventually releases them all just like the ED hints. I wonder if this show will end up with all of mankind's memories eaten up by Kaiba and released in the end? I wonder where this leaves Warp...
And okay, sorry to sound like an utter.. party pooper, but am I the only one who didn't enjoy episode 9? It's the only episode so far that I haven't rewatched twice (I didn't even rewatch the whole thing once, just skipped through it to re-hear some parts... maybe that's why?) I mean, like Akitoshi Yokoyama's work normally, and I think he did a spiffy job with Dennou Coil and episode 3 even if it felt a leeeetle bit cloying, but some bits in episode 7 and a considerable amount more in episode 9 just sort of... rubbed the wrong way with me. (I think Yuasa wrote this episode though)
I suppose it's not bad per se (especially when compared to most other anime out there), but I guess it's that chronic problem of not being what I expected from this show (in a bad way). I should rewatch it after all but at least for now my biggest... "problems" with the episode were
-Kichi repeatedly trying to tell Neiro the truth. It felt kind of convenient that he'd be able to follow her all the way even with his magical office chair and not get shut up by Popo at all.
-Neiro's confusion between what Kichi and Popo were telling her felt kind of... underwhelming I suppose.
-I particularly don't quite approve of the glowing red eyes, that just didn't feel either smart or funny. Probably just me I guess.
-This episode seems like it's suppose to feature more of Neiro (and maybe Popo and Cheki's) point of view, especially considering the huge lack of stuff from Kaiba' perspective, but it felt like I didn't know the characters that much better by the end. Perhaps because Cheki got her memories wiped for a good part of it and Neiro is largley confused but... well I dunno.
-and some other things you probably would find boring.
I have to say the animation of Hyo-hyo was absolutely fantastic though. I didn't realise the first time that the chip had been put into a new white body (that might explain why it seems extra-powerful this episode? I dunno. Don't think we're supposed to think about that.)
I'd sit here and wait for the flames if this was a normal thread, but since so few people come here in the first place..
Nah, we're just waiting for the subs. ;)
But if desire it that badly, what flavor of BBQ sauce do you want?
wao, it seems what you're getting at mirrors my own reaction after some time to let it settle: i think episode 9 makes a lot of sacrifices in order to push the narrative forward, which might not really have been necessary, in retrospect. the moments of exposition are definitely unsubtle, and without enough force to reinforce the poignancy of the situations. a little too much "hey, look at me, i'm plot", rather than letting the story serve itself, maybe.
i still stand by how amazing hyo-hyo was, and how that character's actions were the most significant in the entire episode for me.
So I was looking at the calendar again and realising... there's still two more weeks to the 10th of July :( I thought I must've atoned for whatever undefined sins (maybe illegal anime downloading) there were by living through weeks of delays for Dennou Coil, but nooo...
By the way it seems that the first DVD of Kaiba + soundtrack (which went on sale on Wednesday) doesn't come with full versions of the OP and ED, or that rousing piano piece from episode 3 :( (There's the vocal version of it, but we all know it's not the same)
I can understand if first-time viewers buy the DVDs and listen to the soundtrack along with the first two episodes, the impact of the song might be lessened by the time you watch the next DVD. But who are we kidding, hardly anyone other than hardcore fans who've already watched it are going to buy these DVDs when they're priced like this.
I'd buy the DVDs in a heartbeat if they were released in R1 prices (or since there's only 3 of them, even if they were on the middle-lower end of R2 anime dvds I could do it slooowly) Especially since with English subs I can actually show them to other people. And I won't mind it in SD unlike with Dennou Coil.
edit: @issei Like you said before, one of the biggest draws of this show is how it shows rather than tells, but parts of episode 9 were a leetle bit too "tell" compared to the usual level of storytelling I'm used to for this show. I kinda wish there was some other way for Neiro to be conflicted between the truth and Popo's lies, rather than having Kichi wheeled around telling her in straight terms, but it's not like I could think of anything better I suppose...
BluWacky
2008-06-26, 06:38
By the way it seems that the first DVD of Kaiba + soundtrack (which went on sale on Wednesday) doesn't come with full versions of the OP and ED, or that rousing piano piece from episode 3 :( (There's the vocal version of it, but we all know it's not the same)
Bugger that for a game of soldiers! Maybe there will be other soundtrack albums (wishful thinking...). Do you know WHICH vocal version of The Tree Song it is? There seems to be an English one, a Japanese one, and one where she just goes "loo loo loo"...
I can understand if first-time viewers buy the DVDs and listen to the soundtrack along with the first two episodes, the impact of the song might be lessened by the time you watch the next DVD. But who are we kidding, hardly anyone other than hardcore fans who've already watched it are going to buy these DVDs when they're priced like this.
Oh indeed, who else is going to buy THIS show? The release pattern's really weird as well - why only 3 DVDs? (well, I suppose it's 5 as there's 2 DVDs each in volumes 2 and 3). I think it's too much to hope for another soundtrack.
I loooooooove the cover and box artwork, though. Oh, if only I had money to spend on R2s...
On a different note, I don't think it's really possible to flame you wao because you're right about episode 9 really...
particularly about Kichi. I think they needed to have Kichi blurt all that out to make the scene more dramatic, but it doesn't make SENSE - Popo should have just killed him when he had the chance, really.
I just think I'm less critical when it comes to Kaiba than you are :p
Unfortunately I cannot furnish you with such detailed information considering my one and only sauce is the ever-reliable 2ch...
ネギがピアノで弾いたクロニコ回想の曲入ってないorz
Vocalバージョンは入ってるんだけど、インストで聴きたかった…
I'll just hazard a guess that they're talking about the one with Japanese lyrics. Out of all the versions so far did any one of them have the same arrangement as the instrumental version? I have a feeling I remembered one but my mind could be playing tricks on me (go me, I don't have a single episode of Kaiba saved to go re-check all this) If there was, I think that might be it.
I really was wishing for that song to be included as well though, it's such a pity :( At least the OP/ED are "available" although much harder to get legally.
About episode 9, The thing is I didn't feel Kichi actually added to the drama of those scenes, I kinda thought he detracted from it. It sort of broke the emotional flow for me. And no, I certainly don't hate Kichi at all, I guess it just doesn't fit with my most special and esteemed idea of How Things Should Be Done (pfft). Right, disregard what I said.
I mean, like I said it's done so often in anime but somehow I notice it much more when it's done here.
And I don't... want to be that critical really, it's just this episode that really stuck out as something I just didn't enjoy as much as previous ones (and for me, it didn't have as much other stuff to offset it unlike the "gomen ne kaachan" title in episode 7 which felt a bit awkward)
Also I think I just enjoy different things about the show; for example I inexplicably like almost all the planet-hopping bits while you prefer the parts dealing with the main arc. Even though both of them have their problems. (I have a feeling that has nothing to do with my earlier point, but heck)
...Okay, and I figured it'd give the 3.2 people who actually care something to talk about even after the sub comes out and the next episode still hasn't aired.
SuperKnuckles
2008-06-26, 08:34
I guess the disconnect comes from how the earlier eps were about normal people (at least in Kaiba's universe) dealing with their extraordinary situation. But now, with all the conspiracy and the two-timing characters working with Warp or against Warp, a lot of the basic innocence in storytelling is lost, quite literally. I still think Kaiba stands near the top (or even, at the very top) of the current crop of anime. But it almost seems typical for a Yuasa anime to have very wonky and seemingly inexplicable endings. It has happened many times before.
Going by what you people have been saying regarding the soundtrack that's released with the first DVD, then hopefully we shall see an official soundtrack release sometime soon. I've been thinking over and over in my head if i should order the first DVD just for the soundtrack. I still can't choose. :(
I'm a little gutted that by the time I've seen episode 8 and am ready to discuss it... Others are discussing episode 9. >_<
I'm a little gutted that by the time I've seen episode 8 and am ready to discuss it... Others are discussing episode 9. >_<
It doesn't matter if others have seen episode 8, you can still share your thoughts on episode 8, and we'll talk about it with you. :)
Kirarakim
2008-06-26, 17:32
I'm a little gutted that by the time I've seen episode 8 and am ready to discuss it... Others are discussing episode 9. >_<
And besides not all of us have seen episode 9 yet :)
CorrosiveAra
2008-06-26, 18:31
Well, my copy of the first volume arrived in the mail today. It was a bit of an impulse buy for me, and it's the first R2 I've ever imported, too. I don't have a camera on me, so I can't take pics, but anyway...
The 1st volume takes up a third of the box. So I'm guessing the other two volumes will have 5 eps each, which sort of justifies the higher price.
No storyboards or any cool extras, sadly.
Contents of the soundtrack:
1. Never (tv size-KAIBA mix-)
2. Initialize Me
3. Baby's Noise
4. Night Sound
5. Dark Nebula
6. Planet (laughing version)
7. Planet
8. Planet (enjoying version)
9. Planet (blueing version)
10. Planet (lonely version)
11. Gray in Calculation
12. Chase to It!
13. Catch It up!
14. Think It over!
15. Pink Algorithm
16. Crazy in Love
17. Crazy in Love (light version)
18. Memories
19. Twinkling Photon
20. Nightmare
21. The Tree Song (scat)
22. The Tree Song (a capella)
23. The Tree Song
24. The grand soul flits freely
25. Hello, Goodbye, My memory
26. Carry Me Away (tv size-KAIBA mix-)
I haven't watched it or listened to the soundtrack yet, but feel free to ask me anything.
Allow me to direct intense waves of jealousy in your general direction :)
Okay, I'd like to ask
1. is "The Tree Song" (just that with no bracketed additions) sung in Japanese?
2. do they have that track that plays when awesomebird saves Kaiba in episode 1 and starts on a chase? (Out of curiosity which title would it be?)
3. do they also have the track that plays at I think the ends of episode 1 and 7? It sounds a bit epic (what else to call it).
Thank you so much. And it's a pity you have no camera with you, I kinda wanted to know what the soundtrack cover would look like. It's okay though!
I wonder if the future releases will include any extras added in at the last minute.
KeroKai: Please please ignore us silly people talking about episode 9 and just go straight to discussing episode 8 without caring too much about what the previous posts are about :) (Sorry about it, I just couldn't resist talking about episode 9. The subs should be out any day I'm sure...) Anyway I think some of us (okay, maybe just me) are looking for things to do while the !@#$ing break finishes. I don't mind even talking about episode 1, because it's so great.
CorrosiveAra
2008-06-26, 18:49
There is no soundtrack cover. The case holds two discs, one of which is the soundtrack. I'll give the soundtrack a listen now and try to answer your questions.
1. No, it's in English.
2. Yes, Chase to It!
3. Yes, Initialize Me.
I guess the disconnect comes from how the earlier eps were about normal people (at least in Kaiba's universe) dealing with their extraordinary situation. But now, with all the conspiracy and the two-timing characters working with Warp or against Warp, a lot of the basic innocence in storytelling is lost, quite literally. I still think Kaiba stands near the top (or even, at the very top) of the current crop of anime. But it almost seems typical for a Yuasa anime to have very wonky and seemingly inexplicable endings. It has happened many times before.
it's not so much a disconnect from the narrative, thematically, as it is a reaction to a shift in the storytelling.
to sum it up, episode 9:
kichi = deus ex machina in the worst way.
CorrosiveAra: Thank you so very very much for the information! I really appreciate it. Thank you. While I'm sad that the Kuroniko track's not there, I love those two tracks very much too so... argh, I know it's an utterly vain hope (we're talking about a show broadly following the marketing of Kemonozume, which had just ONE super-expensive DVD-box release a good chunk of time after the show ended) but I do wish they'd release a soundtrack on its own :/ Granted, there'd be no real reason to justify one I suppose...
issei: I hope I'm not mistaken, but perhaps he was referring to how BluWacky and I enjoy different parts of the series? Like how I enjoy the standalone eps more than the main story (for now, anyway) whereas it's the other way around for BluWacky. I don't really know why, but personally (and I suspect this is a highly, highly personal thing) I could relate to the one-off characters in their fable-like situations a lot better than to Popo or Cheki for example. Not because of Popo's actions or anything either, but... well, I suppose SuperKnuckles has a point about them being not quite ordinary.
That is separate from my problems with episode 9 in particular (8 was more enjoyable, for example.)
Oh and I wonder if I'm the only one here silently hoping this show doesn't end in the manner Kemonozume did. Something like Mind Game would be nice although I don't know how, and that was a movie anyway so I don't know if I should be comparing.
MrProphet
2008-06-27, 13:36
What?! The little harpsichord melody that Chroniko's aunt plays (and is later referenced all over the place) is not there? NOOOO!
It's the best goddamn thing in the show after the opeining. I always get teary-eyes every time they start playing it. I wanted it so badly!
Also, what's up with all the villainry in this show?
Is fake-Warp the villain? Is Dada the villain? Is Popo the villain? I'm so confused.
And what's "Kaiba"'s real name? Is it Kaiba or Warp?
Also, if they are going to whitewash Popo away like they did with Vanilla, I'm going to kick someone! Although, his little coup d'etat was rather awesome. He went from being Issoudan's scapegoat-in-chief, doing Dada's dirty work, to taking on fake-Warp in a matter of minutes. Come to think of it, how could Issoudan so easily ambush Warp in the factory? If they could take him out so conveniently before, why didn't they?
Also, what exactly is real Prince Warp's "power"? Is it to restore memories?
Kirarakim
2008-06-27, 15:05
I actually think they will white wash Popo to some extent. I am still stuck on that brief flashback of Popo in episode 8 when he was a kid and he was definitely not evil. So something did change him and I want to know what. I expect we might learn something in episode 10
And what can I say I am one of those people who don't need a completely evil villain to be satisfied in fact I like complex villains much more
And I just hope the series has a good ending. I really have no expectations for the ending because I barely have any theories. Well I guess no expectations is a good thing but I am still worried everything won't make sense in the end. I haven't watched Kemonozume but I heard the ending was a disappointment from a few people.
MrProphet
2008-06-27, 15:45
And what can I say I am one of those people who don't need a completely evil villain to be satisfied in fact I like complex villains much more
Aren't you contradicting yourself a little?
At first you say Popo wasn't evil in his youth, but then you mention that you don't like constantly evil villains. Well, if he were a bad guy from the start (which he wasn't), he'd be exactly the kind of character you don't like, isn't it? Or, at least, that's what I got from your post.
Villainry isn't really about being All Evil, All The Time. It's more of a situational problem. You do something bad and then you either make amends or you create self-righteous excuses to cover your actions.
I think Popo wanted Neiro to be his "maid" so much that he went over the board in one instance and then simply couldn't pull himself out. He had to continue with his plotting in order for his original "sin" (messing with Neiro's memories) to hold up.
Popo has to maintain his credibility and standing within Issoudan, thus his ruthlessness in doing Dada's bidding. Notice how as soon as Dada is eliminated as a threat, Popo reverts to his original obsession: getting rid of Kaiba and bending Neiro to his will.
If Popo could at one point, well, "get over" Neiro, I'm sure he wouldn't have turned on Kaiba as he did in ep. 9. But since we don't really know what happened to those 3 in the past, we can't speculate as to whether Popo was justified in this instance or not.
The Tree Song is just as beautiful as expected, along with the scat version. I knew this score was a winner from what we first heard in episode 01, though i never knew it was going to leave such a strong impression on me as we're aiming closer to the series. Great that i have the soundtrack for listening material, because i can see it being a personal fav' for years to come. Hope we see another one appear with a later DVD for the missing tracks --- that or an official soundtrack release at one point. I waited a year for the full xxxHolic soundtrack to be released, so i've no problem when it comes to waiting.
Kirarakim
2008-06-27, 18:47
Huh how am I contradicting myself?
I didn't say "constantly" evil villain I said "completely" evil villain. I don't have issues about Popo's villainy I was just commenting to what you said about Popo's character that you don't want them to white wash Popo. All I am saying is I think the fact that we see that brief flashback of Popo as a kid is important to his character that something happened to make him evil. I think there is more to his character than meets the eye. Although I am not necessarily saying they will make Popo turn "good" in the end like they did with Vanilla or that Popo will be justified in what he is doing.
And I think maybe Popo fell in love with Neiro and she didn't love him back and that caused him to want to "control" her is one option. It could also just be he became obsessed with power. There is more than one option.
MrProphet
2008-06-27, 20:03
I see. No, I was merely trying to say that perhaps you have misunderstood me.
By saying that you don't like "completely evil" characters, I have thought that perhaps you've mistakenly thought that I was thinking of Popo as such a character by saying that they better not be planning to whitewash him.
That was not the case.
I don't think Popo is evil. Neither is Dada, or Warp. Notice that I said "villain", not "evil". I was meaning to say that they behave in a villain-like fashion, that they commit evil acts for whatever reason. Not that they are, in themselves, evil, which is a rather one-dimensional characteristic.
Whether Popo had a compelling reason to abuse Neiro, we shall see.
But I would still like to emphasize (and I think this is important) that villainy is situational. It's the choices that we make, not a trait of character. In my first question, I wasn't asking who is the token Bad Guy Antagonist of the story, but more about... who is the villain and whose actions are simply misunderstood or shrouded: Popo, Dada, Warp, others...
I still don't know the answer, I am afraid.
kichi = deus ex machina in the worst way.
You should watch some Macross Frontier to up your tolerance for such things ;)
SuperKnuckles
2008-07-05, 06:49
I have to agree with Kichi, but then again, we know NOTHING about Kichi so it's a bit weird there too.
Also, why is Kaiba is Kaiba is Kaiba? My head is spinning. So it's a plant and it's also Warp's alter ego? Craziness.
Also, I think Popo DEFINITELY an evil bastard. Also, considering how he ended up, I have a sneaking suspicion that the childhood version of Popo may actually be a totally different person. Perhaps the true evil Warp has taken over Popo as an insurance as to create an artificial rebellion? And why would Popo (or maybe-evil-Warp-as-imposter) be after the Warp clones? Perhaps all their collective memories would have a powerful sway over evil Warp?
Damn, my head is all messed up thanks to the show. I didn't expect the conspiracies to become so brainy all of a sudden. Maybe it's thanks to the double/triple-agents in the story plus the characters' ability to swap memories.
Actually I disagree about Kichi. He was needed to explain to the audience what happened to Neiro and what Neiro relationship Neiro may be to Kaiba. Even that pic with Popo, Neiro and Chiki as kids is now suspect as one flashback does not show her in the pic at all IIRC. Neiro comes from a totally different class as Popo and wouldn't have been with those 2 and goes with that "maid" statement regarding Neiro. (Chiki was going to be the princess and Neiro was going to be the maid.) In fact, an adult Neiro is shown in the home of her family.
Without Kichi pleading with Neiro to stop, we would not see the mental stranglehold of Popo on Neiro deteriorating as well. Popo needed Kichi there to show that he had control over Neiro. He was also necessary for Neiro to get her real memories back.
You also have to remember that it is a rare audience that picks a title apart to the level that this thread is doing. Most people watch an episode and that's it for the day.
Aquillion
2008-07-05, 18:20
First, regarding Kichi in ep. 9:
The reason why Popo couldn't kill him during that scene is, obviously, it would have made Niero freak out.
If you're asking why he was tied up and not killed earlier, he's an apparently highly-talented memory doctor, and the brother of one of Popo's most important servants (one who not-so-incidentally knows several of Popo's most embarrassing secrets.) There's lots of reasons not to kill him.
Regarding Niero:
The reason Popo needs Niero to kill Kaiba!Warp is because Warp loves her. We can see the gun takes time to charge up... and Kaiba!Warp can kill people with a thought. If, say, Popo himself tried to use it, Kaiba!Warp would detonate him instantly -- only someone he loves enough to hesitate with could possibly have a chance of killing him.
Not that that's stopped Popo from trying several times, with that cup of acid (notice how it burned into the table!) and the big gun in episode 1. But he only tries it in situations where he thinks he can avoid being instantly vaporized, or when (as in episode 9) even if he is vaporized, his plans to kill Warp will still continue.
Which is an interesting point: Does Popo have a death wish? If Kaiba had drunk that liquid, what would have happened? I doubt it would've killed him -- would he have even noticed that it was acid? If he did, would he have disintegrated Popo?
Regarding Popo:
I don't think he's quite as evil as people are making him out to be. He's obviously horribly misguided, but note a few important things.
First, in this episode, Kichi says that Warp is still responsible for the oppression. This means that Popo's actions aren't totally without justification -- he didn't invent the concept of evil-Warp whole cloth. (Kichi does say "Warp changed because of you", but -- changed for the better, when he fell in love with her? Changed for the worse, when something happened? My theory is that he changed for the better... but Popo refuses to acknowledge this, or allow him to get away with things he did in the past.)
Second, there are several points in episode 8 where we see human reactions from him that imply that he's not as cold as his actions might lead us to believe. In the bath scene with Niero, he is obviously uncomfortable with her advances -- I think this shows that even if he altered her memories, he did it because he believed that it was necessary, and doesn't like the idea of taking advantage of her. When Dada-sama executes the traitor, it also looks very much like Popo is about to object. And I thought it was made clear that the scene with his mother was very, very painful for him, but that he did what he did anyway, because he thought it was necessary.
I think Popo is someone who started with a clear, high-minded goal, and slowly ended up doing worse and worse things in service of that goal, using people with the justification that it would be better for everyone in the long run.
Finally, remember that he doesn't consider memories to be people (hence the scene where he's apparently-heartlessly erasing all the fake warp chips.) I wonder if this extends to himself and Niero? If he considers both of them to be some sort of "walking dead" and is filled with self-loathing over it, that could explain a great deal about his actions.
My guess is that what his mother did for his sake is part of the impetus for his feelings about memory transfers and King Warp, too. It's a story very much like Chroniko's from episode 3. He wishes he had died then, rather than having his mother give up her body for his sake.
CorrosiveAra
2008-07-06, 02:17
Well, I just noticed that the booklet had the lyrics to a few songs, so I thought I'd type them up, as they might be of use. I typed them up as they are in the booklet, spelling mistakes and all.
Never:
Eyes still closed Sunshine showed
Through the curtains and the noise
I awoke to your voice
Thinking you'll be by my side
You and I lay close in heart
Please save us from being apart
Time ran too fast to feel
your warmth and love
Never too long or harsh
Always, Beside you
that's all I wished for
Never too sad or hard
Can't bear, loosing, my everything
Carry Me Away
Hear the truth. I used to overlook
Finally caught on a hook
Lost all my strength, so long in length
Devoted to who I truly loved
Carry me away
Carry me far away
Carry me away
Somewhere sincere light
Somewhere sincere light shines
The Tree Song
Once upon a time
Was there an old and lonely tree
By him folks had come and gone
And he was still standing still
No carved names.
No dance and prayers
Took his sorrows away
He dreamed to have
All lives and hearts
And own them all his own
The children's laughter
Tears for joy
New born babys too
Up he swallowed birds and beasts
To fill his lonely soul
Now that he is all alone
The old and lonely tree
No more song is in the wind
And the tree is standing still
Once upon a time
Was there an old and lonely tree
The clear and blue sky up above
And he was standing still
Shiny snowflakes, rain in spring
Could never ease his soul
He dreamed to have
The whole wide world
And own it all his own
Oceans and mountains
Flowers in white
The sun, the moon and stars
Even the shadows swallowed he
To fill his empty soul
Now that he is all alone
The old and lonely tree
No more day or night exists
And the tree is standing still
Aquillion
2008-07-06, 03:13
Actually I disagree about Kichi. He was needed to explain to the audience what happened to Neiro and what Neiro relationship Neiro may be to Kaiba. Even that pic with Popo, Neiro and Chiki as kids is now suspect as one flashback does not show her in the pic at all IIRC. Neiro comes from a totally different class as Popo and wouldn't have been with those 2 and goes with that "maid" statement regarding Neiro. (Chiki was going to be the princess and Neiro was going to be the maid.) In fact, an adult Neiro is shown in the home of her family.Ah, I forgot to reply to this. Regarding this:
No, that memory is real, for two reasons:
First, it doesn't make any sense for Popo to create a false memory in which he is plainly in love with Chiki, not Neiro; all it does is make him look bad today (and when we saw that flashback, it wasn't connected to anyone's memories in particular -- it was just a flashback at the beginning of episode 8, with no reason to think it's fake.)
Second, while we also saw a copy of it in Neiro's, it was in a brief freeze-frame while Kaiba is erasing the blackouts on pictures in her head (20:24, episode 9, in the lower-left corner -- Popo, Neiro, and Chiki together happily.) In that shot, it is plainly one of the "real" memories she's regaining, which Popo had blacked out (or someone had -- I can't think why Popo would black out that memory in particular.)
And this:Also, what's up with all the villainry in this show?
Is fake-Warp the villain? Is Dada the villain? Is Popo the villain? I'm so confused.
And what's "Kaiba"'s real name? Is it Kaiba or Warp?
Also, if they are going to whitewash Popo away like they did with Vanilla, I'm going to kick someone! Although, his little coup d'etat was rather awesome. He went from being Issoudan's scapegoat-in-chief, doing Dada's dirty work, to taking on fake-Warp in a matter of minutes. Come to think of it, how could Issoudan so easily ambush Warp in the factory? If they could take him out so conveniently before, why didn't they?
Also, what exactly is real Prince Warp's "power"? Is it to restore memories?
Regarding the factory, up to episode 8:...they didn't intend to encounter Fake Warp there, that was a coincidence. They knew that Cloak had the Real Warp body, but Fake Warp was just lucky/unlucky enough to be there at the same time that they raided the area to try and take it. (Presumably, their plan was to break in via the balcony overlooking the factory -- but events up there made that moot.)
And as for why they didn't go after Warp before -- remember, they thought he was real, and invincible, with the full powers of Warp (which, from what we've seen, include at least causing things near you to explode with your mind. Not exactly the sort of guy you want to fight directly.) Popo realized Warp was fake because he ducked when they aimed a gun at him (and therefore obviously wasn't invincible.) Popo probably also suspected it simply because he didn't immediately die -- if Fake Warp had had the Real Warp powers, Popo would have already been dead.
For the rest, up to episode 9:
Of course, as soon as they discovered he was fake, killing the Fake Warp was easy. I assume that that super-gun was something they captured from Dada, and that Dada had his own reasons not to use it yet -- the fact that it doesn't seem to have worked might have something to do with it. I also suspect, as I said above, that killing Warp required someone who he would let past his defenses -- in other words, someone he loves. Hence, Niero.
Fake-Warp struck me as more desperate than evil. We don't really know anything about that glowy camera thing that was always watching him, but he seems very much aware of his mortality and the fact that he's only a fake warp. It's kind of hard to judge him when we know so little -- he lashed out at Issoudan with extreme force, but, well, Issoudan is a terrorist group with killing him as their specific goal, so that's understandable. He also disintegrated Cloak, but, again, that seemed more like an act of desperation than one of malice, and it felt like Cloak was trying to blackmail him anyway, so it's hard to avoid the sense that he had it coming.
The most sad thing about Fake Warp to me, though, was that brief split-second of raw happiness on his face when he saw the three Dada-samas -- that's pretty much the only time we saw him happy in the entire show, when (I suspect) he thought for a brief second that he'd escaped, or met someone like him who he can relate to... very sad.
Dada-sama is hard to judge without knowing their real goals, too. Ruthless, yes, desperate, yes, but what were they trying to accomplish? It has something to do with Kaiba (the plant), but that's all we know.
One other odd note:As far as I've noticed, none of the flashbacks with Kaiba!Warp in them have that hole in his chest. So he must have gotten it very shortly before the show started, and it isn't a feature he had to begin with. This also means that at least something must exist capable of harming him, aside from that massive laser (which seems to have failed, and would presumably have done much heavier damage than just that hole if it worked.)
I absolutely adore this show - it's actually one of several series that recently reaffirmed my love of anime, after going through a bunch of shows that left me disappointed and frustrated after viewings - and I really wish that it'll somehow make its way over to the US (though the chances of that are extremely low, I admit...)
Anyway, on to my thoughts/theories of Kaiba after watching Episode 9:
On Neiro's death:
I really don't think that it was Kaiba/Warp who shot and killed Neiro - Neiro's memory itself may be true (and Kichi does confirm the Neiro died once), but the person who did it is certainly not the Kaiba that we've come to know up until now. Most likely, it was someone using one of the bodies of the "fake" Warps to carry it out and kill her. However, that doesn't mean that it was the same Fake Warp who's been on the throne till now and was killed in Episode 9. I mean, in a universe where memories and bodies can be interchanged and replaced as easily as clothing, can we really trust who we see as being the truth? (short answer: no)
Also, if Kaiba/Warp did indeed kill Neiro, why then would he save her memories from scattering into space - seems kinda at odds with the idea of killing a person, doesn't it? Kichi also mentions that Kaiba saved ALL of her memories - not just the good ones, but also then bad ones.; in other words, he didn't just want a incomplete Neiro with only selected memories (unlike say, Popo), but Neiro as she always was.
Lastly... am I the only who thinks that the "menancing grin" of the Warp that killed Neiro looks a tad similar to Popo's wicked smirk that he displays from time to time? :eyebrow:
On Popo:
If there is a true villain in this series, Popo has to be it - with every word that he speaks, you truly have to wonder whether it's the truth or a lie crafted for his own ends: the reality or an illusion (much like the series itself, actually). It's also clear that he's a real hipocrite on the "ideals" of Issoudan that he spouts on and on about (body-switching is evil, memory-replacement is evil, etc.) and that he has broken every single one of them in order to fulfill his own plans.
On the memory of Popo, Chiki, and Neiro as kids, I don't think the it's fake like some people have been suggesting - Popo seemed a little too rattled in Episode 8 when he met his mother in a robot body and saw that she was carrying a picture of his old body. The Second-in-Command Girl (can't remember her name) also confirmed that she knew about Popo's body-replacement, to which he proceeded to threaten her about it (why would he get angry about it if it wasn't true).
It does bring up a few interesting questions: how/why did Popo replace his original body? How did he end up with Dada and Issoudan? Why is he fixated on Neiro and her relationship with Kaiba?
Also, is it just my interpretation, or did Popo abandon Neiro after she "killed" Kaiba at the end of Episode 9? (just seemed like her "purpose" to him had been fulfilled and he no longer needed her if he just left her with Kichi, who's appears to be going to restore her original memory in Episode 10)
On Neiro's memories:
I do wonder whether or not it was indeed Popo and not Kaiba that was responsible for all the bad things that happen to Neiro:
in Episode 7 when Kaiba entered Neiro's memories, there is a brief shot of a painting with Popo's body holding a sword, but the head has been blacked out with Kaiba's head. As of Episode 9, we now know from Kichi that all the bad memories of Neiro were modified with Kaiba's head and all the good memories of Kaiba were modified with Popo's head, - essentially, that means that their roles were reversed in Neiro's mind and that Popo was responsibile at some point for one or more of Neiro's "bad" memories.
On Kaiba's "current" memories:
How much does Kaiba/Warp actually "remember" at this point? Popo seems to be under the impression that the memories that returned to Kaiba were the "post-Episode 1" memories (where Kaiba knew nothing), but was that all that Kichi re-implaneted or did he start adding back Kaiba's original memories before they were captured by Popo's men?
1. He clearly doesn't care for hearing the term "Issoudan" - it was on hearing it that he telepathically shattered the drinking glass, revealing it to be acid (I love how Popo nochalantly covers it up with a blanket).
2. When he met Popo after waking up, Kaiba asks if Popo was shoot at the skonk (the big memory stealer mech) or at Kaiba in Episode 1 and Popo says he was shooting the skonk (which I think is a lie, I think he really was aiming at Kaiba). However, I don't recall in any of the previous episodes of Kaiba learning the skonk's name, so how would he know it?
3. How was he able to (temporarily, it seems) give back Neiro her true memories? Was it by accident, did Neiro regain them herself, or did Kaiba know how to do it with that "light-drawing"? (and if he did know, then he must've had gained some knowledge from somewhere on how to do it)
Aquillion
2008-07-07, 22:43
I absolutely adore this show - it's actually one of several series that recently reaffirmed my love of anime, after going through a bunch of shows that left me disappointed and frustrated after viewings - and I really wish that it'll somehow make its way over to the US (though the chances of that are extremely low, I admit...)
Anyway, on to my thoughts/theories of Kaiba after watching Episode 9:
On Neiro's death:
I really don't think that it was Kaiba/Warp who shot and killed Neiro - Neiro's memory itself may be true (and Kichi does confirm the Neiro died once), but the person who did it is certainly not the Kaiba that we've come to know up until now. Most likely, it was someone using one of the bodies of the "fake" Warps to carry it out and kill her. However, that doesn't mean that it was the same Fake Warp who's been on the throne till now and was killed in Episode 9. I mean, in a universe where memories and bodies can be interchanged and replaced as easily as clothing, can we really trust who we see as being the truth? (short answer: no)
Also, if Kaiba/Warp did indeed kill Neiro, why then would he save her memories from scattering into space - seems kinda at odds with the idea of killing a person, doesn't it? Kichi also mentions that Kaiba saved ALL of her memories - not just the good ones, but also then bad ones.; in other words, he didn't just want a incomplete Neiro with only selected memories (unlike say, Popo), but Neiro as she always was. Well,...he could simply have felt regret afterwards.
[quote]On Kaiba's "current" memories:
How much does Kaiba/Warp actually "remember" at this point? Popo seems to be under the impression that the memories that returned to Kaiba were the "post-Episode 1" memories (where Kaiba knew nothing), but was that all that Kichi re-implaneted or did he start adding back Kaiba's original memories before they were captured by Popo's men?
1. He clearly doesn't care for hearing the term "Issoudan" - it was on hearing it that he telepathically shattered the drinking glass, revealing it to be acid (I love how Popo nochalantly covers it up with a blanket).
2. When he met Popo after waking up, Kaiba asks if Popo was shoot at the skonk (the big memory stealer mech) or at Kaiba in Episode 1 and Popo says he was shooting the skonk (which I think is a lie, I think he really was aiming at Kaiba). However, I don't recall in any of the previous episodes of Kaiba learning the skonk's name, so how would he know it?
3. How was he able to (temporarily, it seems) give back Neiro her true memories? Was it by accident, did Neiro regain them herself, or did Kaiba know how to do it with that "light-drawing"? (and if he did know, then he must've had gained some knowledge from somewhere on how to do it)Well...I think Popo wasn't certain, and was just taking shots in the dark (he starts out saying things like 'escaped' from the ship, and immediately asks Kaiba about his memory (the same thing he asked the very first time they met, in the series.) Presumably Popo comes to the conclusion that Kaiba doesn't remember much from his lack of reaction to those.
Regarding Issoudan, I can think of two possibilities -- first, Kaiba might simply feel that way about them because their attack on Abipa may have hurt people he considers friends.
And second, it could be that that firey explosion is actually at least partially a 'passive defense' thing, which exploded the glass because it was a danger to him, without his consious knowledge.
Kaiba knows the Skonk's name because he was there in episode 1 when all the villiagers were talking about it and how it had captured big brother's body (I think that that's the only time we've heard the word before, too.)
But yeah, the light drawing seems to be something he remembered...
You know, I wonder if there's not more to Popo's plan than we're seeing. One thing I noticed while rewatching it -- just before Niero attacks, it cuts to the tied-up Kichi, with a guard standing over him. The guard scratches his head as if confused after saying "Yes, sir!" to an unknown order in a communicator. Then he... walks away, leaving Kichi unguarded?
What if, for whatever reason, Popo wanted this scene to happen exactly as it did? What if the big gun was never capable of killing Warp, so he devised a more convoluted plan that involved getting Niero near him without his knowing it? At the very least, with Niero and Warp in love, he can attack Warp indirectly through Niero... I don't know, it seems a bit excessively complicated. But it seems odd that he'd order the guard to leave Kichi unguarded at such a vital point.
SassyRobot
2008-07-07, 23:15
On Popo:
It does bring up a few interesting questions: how/why did Popo replace his original body? How did he end up with Dada and Issoudan? Why is he fixated on Neiro and her relationship with Kaiba?
Also, is it just my interpretation, or did Popo abandon Neiro after she "killed" Kaiba at the end of Episode 9? (just seemed like her "purpose" to him had been fulfilled and he no longer needed her if he just left her with Kichi, who's appears to be going to restore her original memory in Episode 10)
It was mentioned in episode 8 that Popo's mother got him a new body to save her sickly son. She sold her body for Popo's sake. I think that since then, Popo has been working (perhaps not in the most noble sense) for a better life (ie higher social standing and power). In a sense, he is still hoping to become a rich king. But on the way he has used his friends and altered their memories. At some point, his actions may have been noble, but now Popo is just a hypocrit - he has a chip and has switched bodies, yet prosecutes those in the same situation as himself, afterall... He is motivated by greed, and there's probably some guilt and payback, too... maybe :P Most importantly, he just wants all you can eat nippos (and none for Cheki!)!
I'm still not sure what to make of that flashback of Warp shooting Neiro, though. Like you said, appearances mean nothing! It could be anyone in that Warp body - but it seems that most people don't know of the Warp clones (if they used a Warp clone body). It was probably the Warp who was on the throne during episode 8 and 9... but how did he take over in the first place? Was Kaiba replaced because he began to change after meeting Neiro?
Didn't Popo say something about "this time" they will succeed in killing Kaiba/Warp? "Don't fail this time"? He also said this to Kaiba about killing Neiro... or had Popo altered his memories to believe that he needed to kill Neiro... Did Popo (or Neiro?) attempt to kill Kaiba, shooting that hole in his chest? Did this knock him out of "heaven", down to the lower levels of the city. Did he pass though the clouds, forgetting everything?
I really don't think Popo cares for Neiro (or Cheki), but is only using them as stepping stones. He obviously needs Neiro to fight against Kaiba. He wouldn't care if they killed each other, tho the loss of his "maid" Neiro would be a hindrance.
You know, I wonder if there's not more to Popo's plan than we're seeing. One thing I noticed while rewatching it -- just before Niero attacks, it cuts to the tied-up Kichi, with a guard standing over him. The guard scratches his head as if confused after saying "Yes, sir!" to an unknown order in a communicator. Then he... walks away, leaving Kichi unguarded?
What if, for whatever reason, Popo wanted this scene to happen exactly as it did? What if the big gun was never capable of killing Warp, so he devised a more convoluted plan that involved getting Niero near him without his knowing it? At the very least, with Niero and Warp in love, he can attack Warp indirectly through Niero... I don't know, it seems a bit excessively complicated. But it seems odd that he'd order the guard to leave Kichi unguarded at such a vital point.
*head explode*
It did seem kinda weird to leave Kichi unguarded, though. Maybe his sister is up to something?
Random thought: I've always thought it was odd that Cape didn't go after Kaiba/Warp from the moment he saw him. He seemed to be a big collector, so you'd think he'd recognize a Warp right away. It wasn't until he saw the mark on his front (limited edition!) that he went after him... yeah not an important detail, just something that crossed my mind.
Too bad series such as these don't get tons of merch made for them...(it is a good thing for my wallet, though)
Ah, I forgot to reply to this. Regarding this:
No, that memory is real, for two reasons:
First, it doesn't make any sense for Popo to create a false memory in which he is plainly in love with Chiki, not Neiro; all it does is make him look bad today (and when we saw that flashback, it wasn't connected to anyone's memories in particular -- it was just a flashback at the beginning of episode 8, with no reason to think it's fake.)
Second, while we also saw a copy of it in Neiro's, it was in a brief freeze-frame while Kaiba is erasing the blackouts on pictures in her head (20:24, episode 9, in the lower-left corner -- Popo, Neiro, and Chiki together happily.) In that shot, it is plainly one of the "real" memories she's regaining, which Popo had blacked out (or someone had -- I can't think why Popo would black out that memory in particular.)
But at 7:07 in ep. 9 we're shown the same version of Popo and Cheki with the Popo speech but without Neiro. And Kichi did say that Neiro's memories have been altered more than once. We've also seen how Cheki isn't exempt from the memory alteration either.
What if that relationship of childhood friends (Popo, Cheki and Neiro) was manufactured so that Neiro could be controlled by Dada-sama via Popo and the only childhood friend was really Cheki?
Aquillion
2008-07-08, 17:04
I really don't think Popo cares for Neiro (or Cheki), but is only using them as stepping stones. He obviously needs Neiro to fight against Kaiba. He wouldn't care if they killed each other, tho the loss of his "maid" Neiro would be a hindrance.While I don't know if he actually cares about Neiro, he didn't actually want Kaiba to fight her successfully -- the gun he gave Kaiba didn't seem to be loaded (I think Hyo-Hyo was actually pulling the trigger, and it was just clicking uselessly while Popo laughed.)
He gave it to Kaiba and fed him all those lines in hopes of making it easier for Neiro to kill him, and to help avoid any doubts on her part by having Kaiba trying to shoot back. He slipped up when he tried to imply that Kaiba was a member of Issoudan, though, since Kaiba had already seen or recalled enough to know that he wouldn't have been.
(Of course, if Kaiba's sharp then he might already have known that Popo was modifying Neiro's memories -- he could see Popo's image pasted in all over them when he viewed them, and right after that he realized that he had to go back to Lala. That could've had a lot to do with Kaiba's suspicious response, too.)
Random thought: I've always thought it was odd that Cape didn't go after Kaiba/Warp from the moment he saw him. He seemed to be a big collector, so you'd think he'd recognize a Warp right away. It wasn't until he saw the mark on his front (limited edition!) that he went after him... yeah not an important detail, just something that crossed my mind.
Too bad series such as these don't get tons of merch made for them...(it is a good thing for my wallet, though)Two reasons: First, when Kaiba arrived, he was wearing a cloak that covered his entire body. Even when he removed it, the collector only got to see him from the back initially, and only for a few brief seconds before he turned around.
Second, while he might have thought that the guy looked a little bit like Warp from the back (which would have been why he was paying attention in the first place), the giant hole in the chest sort of ruins things -- at first glance, at least, you'd think that that was part of the way the body was designed, which would disqualify it from being even a Warp clone. Maybe he thought the body was some random person's cheap Warp imitation, with the hole added to make it clear that it wasn't the real thing -- something he might have bought if he happened to see it for sale, but not something he's going to leap up in the middle of a bar and cause a commotion over. Presumably, though, the mark on the front is something that nobody in their right mind would forge, so when he saw that he knew it was the real deal.
Kirarakim
2008-07-08, 20:13
But at 7:07 in ep. 9 we're shown the same version of Popo and Cheki with the Popo speech but without Neiro. And Kichi did say that Neiro's memories have been altered more than once. We've also seen how Cheki isn't exempt from the memory alteration either.
What if that relationship of childhood friends (Popo, Cheki and Neiro) was manufactured so that Neiro could be controlled by Dada-sama via Popo and the only childhood friend was really Cheki?
You don't see Neiro initially in that scene but in the end you do see her in the flashback in episode 9 in the last frame. However I don't know maybe that is to show that Neiro was added into the memory later. Good catch!
I have mixed feelings about Kichi telling all. I mean it does seem sort of anti-climatic to have Kichi reveal everything but then again I am not really sure how else they could have presented all this information to us. And I feel what Kichi revealed isn't the big surprise of the series. I mean I think we all knew what Kaiba and Neiro's feelings for each other really were. Although what interested me was when Kichi said Neiro changed Kaiba.
I am beginning to think Kaiba changed for the better while Popo changed for the worst and Neiro is somewhere in the center of all this.
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