Clannad - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

Klashikari

2008-01-09, 16:05

Welcome to the discussion thread for Clannad, Episode 13.

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Rookie103

2008-01-09, 16:49

Is this even out yet?

Klashikari

2008-01-09, 17:47

Nope. Usually an episode thread is created within 24 hours the episode is supposed to air. (And also depending of a moderator's whim :heh:)
This allows some discussion about the preview and other expectations and so forth.

Episode 13 will be aired this thursday 10th january, at 25:00 Japan Time Zone (or if you prefer, 1:00AM, the 11th)
Therefore, it will be aired at GTM-00 at 4:00PM.

The Chaos

2008-01-09, 17:58

Thanks For The Info Klash ....I Was Gonna Ask About The Time...
Finally I Been Witting So Long For This Ep.. :)

Kristen

2008-01-09, 20:52

The wait is finally over! :D

Clannad withdrawel is not fun.

Ah well. Will this be the last Kotomi, or will there be one more? (Speculation, not factual)

Klashikari

2008-01-09, 20:59

It isn't anything spoiler, so I guess it is okay to let it know already, still just in case:

Episode 14 will be the end of her route

ApostleOfGod

2008-01-09, 21:04

Tsuki-Miko-14

2008-01-09, 21:22

Been waiting for Clannad... Does this mean it's actually part/season 2 now? They paused in the middle of a character's arc so...
I wonder if they'll have same Theme songs and images in theme songs.. Or will it change..?
findly the the whole 2 week is findly over. i was sad and bored with out hte new epi. :\
that what i be think of to . my guess is no, because they did show the all the character in the open (i may be wrong about that) .it the same with Kanon and Air.
and for the end them i don't about that either.

GyroidFanatic

2008-01-10, 01:51

Been waiting for Clannad... Does this mean it's actually part/season 2 now? They paused in the middle of a character's arc so...
I wonder if they'll have same Theme songs and images in theme songs.. Or will it change..?
The break was because the show was preempted for the holidays. The real season break (if it does happen) will probably be a half-year to a year long.

And although it is the second cour, don't expect any changes.

kissthestick

2008-01-10, 04:36

Cant wait for this :D

boggart

2008-01-10, 04:48

By the looks of things, the rumours and speculations that there will be a second cour seems to be more real as we draw closer to episode 24. Unless KyoAni really do a fast forward with the other heroines, I really don't see how everything will be covered.

The Chaos

2008-01-10, 05:20

It isn't anything spoiler, so I guess it is okay to let it know already, still just in case:

Episode 14 will be the end of her route
Is That Really True...OMG What Gonna Happened To Her...Well They Make Her Despair Too ...?

Herrium

2008-01-10, 05:20

Been waiting for Clannad... Does this mean it's actually part/season 2 now? They paused in the middle of a character's arc so...
I wonder if they'll have same Theme songs and images in theme songs.. Or will it change..?

Concerning Air and Kanon, I don't think the OP and ED will change songs, but images may. Also, Boggart, is it set in stone that it'll stop at 24? Like Kanon? Considering the visual novel had alot more depth, I could see it going for more. But, seeing as how Air was small, and Kanon was pretty deep, I wouldn't be surprised if Key wanted it for more than 24, but if it's already official, then never mind (It means I'm rambling, sorry).

Also on a side note, I kind of have been wondering why they left it at where it is now. I'm guessing, all by speculation, that they wanted to leave it at the climax before the holiday season, have hype build up, and then have it go out with a bang. Hmmm, my mind does ramble.

Kang Seung Jae

2008-01-10, 05:21

Now, let's see Tomoya make his move! :D

IRJustman

2008-01-10, 05:45

From what I understand, if what I'm hearing is true, if they want to do what they want to do (including having After Story, not to mention the sheer mass of story they have to deal with in the first place), they WILL need additional episodes to pull it off properly.

--Ian.

The Chaos

2008-01-10, 06:35

great episode
Can't wait to watch the next episode
Did The Ep Come Out Already..?

Klashikari

2008-01-10, 07:14

Did The Ep Come Out Already..?
Nope. Like I said, at 4:00 PM (At GTM-00), therefore, from now on, it will be in 3h46.
Just wait 5-6 hours anyway, the air time isn't anything different from the rest of the episode.

Kristen

2008-01-10, 08:55

Concerning Air and Kanon, I don't think the OP and ED will change songs, but images may. Also, Boggart, is it set in stone that it'll stop at 24? Like Kanon? Considering the visual novel had alot more depth, I could see it going for more. But, seeing as how Air was small, and Kanon was pretty deep, I wouldn't be surprised if Key wanted it for more than 24, but if it's already official, then never mind (It means I'm rambling, sorry).

Also on a side note, I kind of have been wondering why they left it at where it is now. I'm guessing, all by speculation, that they wanted to leave it at the climax before the holiday season, have hype build up, and then have it go out with a bang. Hmmm, my mind does ramble.

It's official that this season will stop at 24, as that is the official release schedule's time. However, seeing that there are 2 more Kotomi (Thanks Klashkari) and they still need to cover Tomoyo's, Kyou's, and Nagisa's arc, as well as After Story, they would be left with far to little time. My thoughts are that Kyou will get 5, and Tomoyo will get 5, leaving the first season as all the other characters. S2 would be Nagisa and After Story for 13. Of course, the sides are thrown in here, but I'm just working with the main routes.

I am wondering too why they had their pause during the past 2. I guess because it was halfway, and they wanted to pause so they can end in late March instead of early March. That way there wouldn't be too much of a gap between Clannad and Haruhi II.

GyroidFanatic

2008-01-10, 09:37

I am wondering too why they had their pause during the past 2. I guess because it was halfway, and they wanted to pause so they can end in late March instead of early March. That way there wouldn't be too much of a gap between Clannad and Haruhi II.

They were preempted because of the holidays. It wasn't their choice.

Kristen

2008-01-10, 09:42

They were preempted because of the holidays. It wasn't their choice.

Oh, that too... *Runs away before anyone notices*

Ah well. This will hopefully mean 12 straight weeks of Clannady goodness that is more tasty than the Dango Daikazoku Nagisa was baking. Well, it kind of has to be 12 straight weeks, or they'd run over into April. :)

On an unrelated note: I just realized that Clannad 17 airs on my birthday, at least in EDT. :)

So, on the subject of this episode, I really have no ability to predict what will happen. Maybe Tomoya will settle Kotomi down, only to hear the next isse, which is that she might study abroad? *Needs to rewatch 10-12*

Rookie103

2008-01-10, 11:15

Quater past four. I wonder when it'll appear to watch for free.

Klashikari

2008-01-10, 11:39

So, on the subject of this episode, I really have no ability to predict what will happen. Maybe Tomoya will settle Kotomi down, only to hear the next isse, which is that she might study abroad? *Needs to rewatch 10-12*
For this kind of matter, please use Clannad - Speculation & Theories (for first time viewers) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=55256) thread. Even if you don't feel confident of your prediction "abilities", don't hesitate to post there :) (especially that this thread seems deserted for quite a while :heh:)

Quater past four. I wonder when it'll appear to watch for free.
Though it isn't exactly a request, let me just remind you just in case (and just for other people as well) that anything related to the obtainment of RAW is prohibited as shown in the thread guidelines :)
That said, as already stated earlier (and for most series), it would require 1-2 hours after the episode was aired.

the poll is now open, by the way (still, use your own discretion for the timing of your vote).

Rookie103

2008-01-10, 11:45

For this kind of matter, please use Clannad - Speculation & Theories (for first time viewers) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=55256) thread. Even if you don't feel confident of your prediction "abilities", don't hesitate to post there :) (especially that this thread seems deserted for quite a while :heh:)

Though it isn't exactly a request, let me just remind you just in case (and just for other people as well) that anything related to the obtainment of RAW is prohibited as shown in the thread guidelines :)
That said, as already stated earlier (and for most series), it would require 1-2 hours after the episode was aired.

the poll is now open, by the way (still, use your own discretion for the timing of your vote).

I thought, that because it isn't licenced, we can talk about watching it free? Anyway, oh well. I guess I'll watch it tommorow.

Kristen

2008-01-10, 11:55

I thought, that because it isn't licenced, we can talk about watching it free? Anyway, oh well. I guess I'll watch it tommorow.

RAW's are unsubtitled episodes, which are considered illegal. Fansubs are hazy, so they can be asked for and stuff. But when it's liscenced, Fansubs are also illegal.

Rookie103

2008-01-10, 12:14

RAW's are unsubtitled episodes, which are considered illegal. Fansubs are hazy, so they can be asked for and stuff. But when it's liscenced, Fansubs are also illegal.

I guess I'll have to wait untill it's subbed. I don't beleive it's liscened. Is it?

Klashikari

2008-01-10, 12:17

I guess I'll have to wait untill it's subbed. I don't beleive it's liscened. Is it?
I think I was unclear: basically, anything related to the obtainment of RAW is prohibited (so mention or even links to find the raw etc.).

However, discussion of the said episode can be done without any problem, as long as it is on topic anyway. Discussion of RAW itself isn't an issue, rather how to get it.
Even if the show isn't licensed, anything related to the acquirement of RAW is forbidden.

Rookie103

2008-01-10, 12:22

I think I was unclear: basically, anything related to the obtainment of RAW is prohibited (so mention or even links to find the raw etc.).

However, discussion of the said episode can be done without any problem, as long as it is on topic anyway. Discussion of RAW itself isn't an issue, rather how to get it.
Even if the show isn't licensed, anything related to the acquirement of RAW is forbidden.

OK. I get it now. Thanks.

Klashikari

2008-01-10, 13:18

As usual...

Episode 13: Bullet Summary and screencaps (http://animehistory.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/clannad-episode-13/)

This episode was a bit fast paced, and lacked of some monologue. It records as 8.5, rounded to 8 n my books. will add more comments later

Kaioshin Sama

2008-01-10, 15:18

I just want to say that I find this screenshot amusing on so many levels for what it implies (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/CLANNAD/CLANNAD%20-%2013%20-%20Large%2010.jpg) as well as the follow up (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/CLANNAD/CLANNAD%20-%2013%20-%20Large%2011.jpg) shots. (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/CLANNAD/CLANNAD%20-%2013%20-%20Large%2012.jpg).

Of course I'm sure with context it's not what it appears to be, but without it, man oh man.:naughty: Well looks like it's hell for me again then.:sad:

ThoHell

2008-01-10, 15:43

I don't know where I got the idea that this was only a 13 episode series, but I was thinking about it while watching this episode. I was like "NO WAY THIS CAN BE THE END...WTF KIND OF ENDING IS THIS?" But then I found out it's 24 episodes and felt much better. Glad to see this series will still be continuing for some time! Good episode, but what Kotomi said was pretty unexpected.

Cyz

2008-01-10, 16:04

And so the series continues....

-> Screenshots (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2008/01/10/clannad-13/) of ep. 13 courtesy of Random Curiosity. Pls. look at it at your own risk!
Little Kotomi is cute btw :love: :blush:

GyroidFanatic

2008-01-10, 16:31

ThoHell

2008-01-10, 16:41

How did you think that? We still have 3 major routes to go down, a bunch of minor routes, and After Story.

I'm not sure...Daydreaming? But anyways I'm glad it isn't!

wontaek

2008-01-10, 20:57

So are they suggesting that ToE( Theory of Everything ) could have been called I(chinose)-theory or K(otomi)-Theory instead of M-Theory?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_M-theory

Noppapana

2008-01-10, 21:29

there is something bothering me
why does kotomi want to isolate herself ?
does she want to keep the sadness to her or does she remember the sad times she had ?

Mirrinus

2008-01-10, 21:56

Hmm...that's already more references outside of my original breadth of knowledge than I expected out of Kotomi's arc...although I guess that's kind of to be expected from the beginning, considering her character. >_<

Interesting.

BladeStone

2008-01-11, 03:22

I wish I knew Japanese (or had a fansub) :(

*sings the anticipation song*

SamKajam

2008-01-11, 05:27

Why are they f***ing up Kotomi's backyard?

Ascaloth

2008-01-11, 05:36

Watched the TWH-Sprocket sub of Episode 13.

The beginning of the episode was pretty damned sad, not least because of the sight of the cute little Loli Kotomi wandering around the empty house, going out of her mind. That was like, ouch.....

The rest of it from there on though, was basically setup for Kotomi's finale. Therefore, it's satisfactory, but it seems like the really good stuff is left for Episode 14. As it is, this episode gets an 8.

mAcOdIn

2008-01-11, 05:48

Why are they f***ing up Kotomi's backyard?

They're not. Her yard is already f***ed because all the grass and flowers have been taken over by weeds. So they're pulling all the weeds and then I presume, they will plant grass and flowers.

Divini

2008-01-11, 06:42

Ahhh...

This episode just makes me want to beg for the next episode to be released now. So much set-up and backstory was displayed in this episode, but it seems they are saving all the plot-defining moments for the finale. The story of this episode raised a lot of questions in my mind:

What kind of experiences did Kotomi and Tomoya share together when they were children?

What is the significance of Tomoya's dream? Surely he played a bigger role than a simple playmate / first crush.

"Day before yesterday I saw a rabbit..." Kotomi said that rather emotionally during the preview...

What significance will the (now broken) violin play?

Does a single model that explains all physical phenomena exists? (Next episode's title) Was this the ultimate goal of Kotomi's parents' research? Is it related to the other world? Will Kotomi herself have a role to play in that aspect?

I think something big is gonna go down at or after her birthday party :eek:

Main Char / Supporting Char[TH]
Okazaki Tomoya
Ichinose Kotomi
Furukawa Nagisa
Fujibayashi Ryou
Fujibayashi Kyou
Kotomi's Guardian
14:15
9:24
7:16
5:47
5:30
0:34

Ruhisu

2008-01-11, 08:38

I Give a 10 because of Kotomi-chan flashback.
She was so CUTE when she was a child.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9601/kotomichanmixel9.th.jpg (http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kotomichanmixel9.jpg)
Please call the ambulance because my heart is in enormous pain whe I saw Kotomi-chan tragic history.
DAMMIT! I want tu give her a hug, make her happy but I cant't!

Kinny Riddle

2008-01-11, 08:49

Why are they f***ing up Kotomi's backyard?
The hell you talking about? Or to quote Kotomi "Nandeyanen~!?" :cool:

Can't you see that the garden is already f***ed up to begin with? And didn't you see Tomoya going to the nearby Home Depot and buying gardening tools and reading up the Gardening 101 books he bought while eating out in "Moff Burger" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mos_Burger)?

Perhaps it's cliche, but in this day and age, three weeks is like an eternity for anime watching. Though I've hardly been idle, using this opportunity to catch up on and clearing the Clannad game completely.

Again, the anime provides Tomoya here with a solidarity from his friends (even though if it's just 30 minutes) that is not seen in the original, where he has to do his own amateur gardening alone, further developing the chemistry of Tomoya and Nagisa, as well as nicely setting up for Kyou and Ryou's story.

An interesting observation is made concerning the removal of weeds between Tomoya and his "gardening harem".

After the girls join in, Tomoya, despite going through a gardening crash course, is trailing behind the girls.

Kyou is merely ahead of Tomoya.

Nagisa sure is hardworking.

How Ryou managed to get so much done still baffles me. :heh:

I'll provide a screenshot once I have a better video.

Klashikari

2008-01-11, 09:02

^ here are some pictures for reference:
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/th_CLANNADep13055.jpg (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/CLANNADep13055.jpg) http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/th_CLANNADep13061.jpg (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/CLANNADep13061.jpg) http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/th_CLANNADep13063.jpg (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/CLANNADep13063.jpg)

it seems the start wasn't really balanced to begin with. Ryou sure goes ahead, but the width of her weed extermination area is sure short :heh:

velocity7

2008-01-11, 09:06

Well, if I had to judge it accordingly, Nagisa and Kyou are better than Tomoya by a fair margin (!!). Ryou is probably the same speed as Tomoya, just that she's focused to a small area so she "looks" like she's gone ahead, but truth is not really. ;)

Kristen

2008-01-11, 09:24

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5007/lightsbu6.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lightsbu6.jpg)

Why are there 3 lights now? Did we cover somebody's sidestory or something?

Kotomi's past is so depressing! Though, she is right. That man is a really bad person. He completely ignored her and her grief, and just wanted that darn paper. If I was Kotomi, I would have burned it too.
And it's no wonder that Tomoya was going so slow, considering how much faster Nagisa and Kyou are working than him. Ryou is a tiny width, so that could be why.
It's also interesting how Kotomi didn't have a sonic violin in the past. I guess that her emotional distress came and corrupted it or something?

I really like some of the musical choices Kyoto is making. Like, it's all OST, but they just are choosing the right places to put it.

Now, for a 1 week wait until the next one. I'm glad that 13 wasn't the end. I guess the whole Rabbit/Deer thing will be explained, as well as Tomoya's flashback of the fire.

I'm giving this episode a 10, because it basically held me speechless the entire time. Now, if only my dad hadn't interupted me halfway through. :(

Kinny Riddle

2008-01-11, 09:35

You're right Chrissie, why's there suddenly a new orb when Kotomi's story isn't finished yet? :confused::confused:

there is something bothering me
why does kotomi want to isolate herself ?
does she want to keep the sadness to her or does she remember the sad times she had ?

She's still blaming herself for her parents deaths, since the last thing she ever said to them was "I HATE YOU!" And she never had a chance to apologize and say she didn't mean it when saying that.

She tried to study hard so that she can recover what she thinks she has made lost, namely her parents Theory of Everything thesis.

Tomoya is now trying to bring the poor girl back and tell her there are people who care for her.

Oh and any Lucky Star maniacs notice Shiraishi "Wa-wa-wa-wasuremono" Minori making another cameo again as the first music store owner? Though funny, but seriously, they ought to limit these cameos, Clannad is no LS where they can afford any cameo for comedic effect.

Kristen

2008-01-11, 09:42

You're right Chrissie, why's there suddenly a new orb when Kotomi's story isn't finished yet? :confused::confused:

She's still blaming herself for her parents deaths, since the last thing she ever said to them was "I HATE YOU!" And she never had a chance to apologize and say she didn't mean it when saying that.

She tried to study hard so that she can recover what she thinks she has made lost, namely her parents Theory of Everything thesis.

Tomoya is now trying to bring the poor girl back and tell her there are people who care for her.

Oh and any Lucky Star maniacs notice Shiraishi "Wa-wa-wa-wasuremono" Minori making another cameo again as the first music store owner? Though funny, but seriously, they ought to limit these cameos, Clannad is no LS where they can afford any cameo for comedic effect.

I was thinking. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with arcs as we first though. Like, maybe they add a new orb every DVD? DVD's 1 and 2 had 0 (That would be why the start of the Fuko route had 0), DVD 3 had 1 (7, 8, and 9), DVD 4 had 2 (10, 11, and 12). Hence, DVD 5 would have 3 (13, 14, and 15.)

We'll just have to see in 2 and 3 weeks what happens.

Ascaloth

2008-01-11, 09:52

Klashikari

2008-01-11, 10:40

Oh and any Lucky Star maniacs notice Shiraishi "Wa-wa-wa-wasuremono" Minori making another cameo again as the first music store owner? Though funny, but seriously, they ought to limit these cameos, Clannad is no LS where they can afford any cameo for comedic effect.
I noticed it as well, though I'm certainly sure it isn't anything related to cameo or such sort.
In most anime productions, producers tend to limit budget and such. Even if it might also ring like lazyness, any cookie cutter voice actor can do the trick for ambiant and figurant characters (until it is a joke, much like in LS with [generic woman] [generic man]voices).
I guess contract and such sort can also involve a certain duration instead of a specific series.

It is probably ever since Haruhi/LS that Minoru is taken as a favored seiyuu among their cast, so. (and indeed, his voice is casual enough to fit such secondary/short life spanned roles).

Deathkillz

2008-01-11, 10:53

Kotomi's moeness asides...I feel that something is lacking with this arc :/
So we find out about kotomi's past...more or less fully. Yet why am I not getting much feeling of wanting to breakdown? Perhaps it's the way the information was presented in such a straight forward way, a lot of the emotion was lost imo. Maybe my expectations were too high but kotomi's case isn't as moving as I imagined. It was a tragic past but now we see that a bit too often that it isn't having the same impact as before, and for kotomi to narrate her whole ordeal, I feel that it is rather unreal-like. (Or I was expecting something more dramatic). Now kotomi has gone into "just leave me alone" mood - or well tomoya doesn't dare go into her room to see if she is already, so instead decides to work on her garden :rolleyes:
Sad past, and I know just why kotomi thinks that she is a bad, selfish girl - she probably thinks that their parents died because of her (maybe true? seen as the news reporter said that the plane crashed while it was "hurrying" - maybe her parents wanted to get back home ASAP...).
Now all we have is to wait for this to conclude - highlight for me was kyou and her jaw dropping attitude XD "beat the crap out of the rider and his bike..." lol

Ascaloth

2008-01-11, 12:36

Blog article is up:

[RIUVA] CLANNAD (TV), Episode 13 (http://www.riuva.com/?p=946)

LolitaDecay

2008-01-11, 14:06

Woah! Really enjoyed this episode. Kotomi's past is sad but I have to agree with Deathkillz, I wasn't breaking down like I did with Fuuko or in Kanon which is a shame because I adore Kotomi.

Chibi Kotomi is pure CUTENESS!

Khaos

2008-01-11, 14:08

ReizoSan

2008-01-11, 14:30

Is it me but that episode was really quite plain but somehow they managed to create a good episode with the feeling of wanting to see the next great animation skills.
Do you think she will tell her feelings for him as it looks that way after watching the preview whats everyone elses opinion on the preview and that.

bladeofdarkness

2008-01-11, 14:42

in the first two times that tomoya and kotomi met right before parting kotomi always looked like she wanted to say something and then instead just said see you later (matane)
now i know what she wanted to say

Leo_Otaku

2008-01-11, 14:55

it is the next episode thatgives the punch effect not this one it was the same for in the game...

I guessed they were going to get everyone to help with the clean up. I can not wait for the next epiosde seeing how they will do that part will give it more impact.

ApostleOfGod

2008-01-11, 16:40

Yes.... After Kotomi, is it Tomoyo's arc?

Mirrinus

2008-01-11, 17:07

I must say: Kyou was yet again awesome to watch in this episode. Such a forceful personality...

I'm waiting for the next episode to make any judgment about this arc. Especially considering how Fuuko's arc went, I'd rather not hastily make any rash statements until I let the entire thing play out, as the end of Fuuko's arc taught me how a seemingly mild story can be wrapped up with such force. Love the title and preview for the next episode, Kotomi's seiyuu did a good job with that. It's just such a shame that I must leave for a trip next Thursday, so I won't get a chance to see it until much later. >_<

HayashiTakara

2008-01-11, 20:12

BladeStone

2008-01-11, 21:12

Was this answered? Why is the old man still following Kotomi? I'm sure he has figured out at some point over the years the thesis has been destroyed. What business does he have with Kotomi anymore?

EDIT: Does it bother anyone else that someone '1'ed the episode without even a post or explanation?

Klashikari

2008-01-11, 21:50

Was this answered? Why is the old man still following Kotomi? I'm sure he has figured out at some point over the years the thesis has been destroyed. What business does he have with Kotomi anymore?
The gentleman is Kotomi's guardian, as he already explained to Tomoya back in episode 12. Remember also that he wanted her to know their regret, even if he and the other coworkers don't expect her to forgive them.

Mirrinus

2008-01-11, 22:06

Does it bother anyone else that someone '1'ed the episode without even a post or explanation?

Doesn't that usually happen? You come to expect these things...

Reckoner

2008-01-11, 22:22

Herrium

2008-01-12, 01:52

I liked how it got better since episode 11, 12 and 13 made me want to watch it more, because the Kotomi arc sounded like the Fuko arc in episode 11, but, never mind on that then. I gave it 8/10 for not a very interesting episode, but a fairly well one, and they took time to explain Kotomi's uneasiness, which was a good one imo.

Godly_senselessness

2008-01-12, 01:59

Hmm,frankly i found this episode to be very boring.It was below average for me.Also the preview did not seem to be too promising to me either.I loved episodes 11 and 12 btw.

kimchipride

2008-01-12, 02:48

An amazing episode that finally revealed more on Kotomi and answered a lot of things that were mentioned in previous episodes. All I have to wait for is the deer, rabbit, tomoya thing...

Kang Seung Jae

2008-01-12, 04:49

Sheba

2008-01-12, 05:01

Nagisa is starting to edge me, I was so happy when Tomoya told her to go class, but no she had to show up :(. I guess I am complaining about this inevitable relationship in this series. I just cannot stand these weak personalities in people I guess...

Ah, so I rated this episode a 7/10. It was good, especially with no Fuko around.
I think the scriptwriter has been trying to develop Tomoya and Nagisa's relationship from the beginning without feeling it unnatural and forced.
That was one of the main qualms about the Ayu ending in Kanon 2006, especially from those that didn't see the hints about it, if there were hints.

Rookie103

2008-01-12, 06:31

I give it a nine. It was good, explains alot about kotomi. I think episode fourteen is going to be the end of her arc. Should be a great episode.

arkxkra

2008-01-12, 10:51

after 2 week breaks(2 week no clannad) now it back. Another good episode. Some touch on the memory of the past.

Kotomi past is so sad, and on her birthday, why bad thing alway have to happen in same time? it damn hard for a human, especially a kid :(.

FireChick

2008-01-12, 11:21

I just finished this episode and...awww! Kotomi so cute when she's little! This was so sad!:(

Reckoner

2008-01-12, 11:42

I think the scriptwriter has been trying to develop Tomoya and Nagisa's relationship from the beginning without feeling it unnatural and forced.
That was one of the main qualms about the Ayu ending in Kanon 2006, especially from those that didn't see the hints about it, if there were hints.

Ok?... All I said was that I don't like the relationship, but I do know its going to happen.

Mirificus

2008-01-12, 12:01

I found it interesting that the younger Kotomi is clearly able to play the violin without making those awful screeching sounds.

Klashikari

2008-01-12, 12:05

I found it interesting that Kotomi used to be able to play the violin without making those awful screeching sounds.
The thing is Kotomi obviously didn't practice Violin for a long time (while she is obviously learning at that period of time).
Also, the violin cords weren't really accorded.

But sure enough, the combination of these 2 factors give a exponential chaotic result :heh:

Mirificus

2008-01-12, 12:21

The thing is Kotomi obviously didn't practice Violin for a long time (while she is obviously learning at that period of time).
Also, the violin cords weren't really accorded.

But sure enough, the combination of these 2 factors give a exponential chaotic result :heh:
Even as a novice violinist though, she clearly isn't generating the screeching noises. Also the hand me down violin can't have been all that out of tune as the violinist that Kotomi overheard playing that violin had no problems getting decent sound out of it. The problem isn't with the instrument so much as its musician.

I would guess that the awful sounds Kotomi now gets out of a violin have something to do with the trauma she experienced as a child.

KaneDragon

2008-01-12, 12:36

I would guess that the awful sounds Kotomi now gets out of a violin have something to do with the trauma she experienced as a child.

She's trying to open up rifts in space and time, which explains the Lovecraft incantations, too. The "pretty" she was referring to was not her music but rather the impending annihilation of all of existence. :uhoh:

Bonta Kun

2008-01-12, 12:52

She's trying to open up rifts in space and time, which explains the Lovecraft incantations, too. The "pretty" she was referring to was not her music but rather the impending annihilation of all of existence. :uhoh:

hmm didn't think about it that way, only thought she wanted to bring about the destruction of our fair planet.
Sooooo what? she attacks by using her uber moe cuteness then finishes off by whipping out the violin and bringing about our doom.......wow she really is a weapon of mass destruction.

man at the end of this ep I swore my head off!!!:frustrated: I really really want to know how this ends!!!
bastards know how to keep me waiting thats for sure:upset:

orion

2008-01-12, 12:54

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5007/lightsbu6.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lightsbu6.jpg)

Why are there 3 lights now? Did we cover somebody's sidestory or something?

Fuko was a 2 lights for one deal. :heh: :joke:

Edit: I was joking, but on review I did see 2 lights fly by during Fuko's arc (ep. 5).

Kotomi's past is so depressing! Though, she is right. That man is a really bad person. He completely ignored her and her grief, and just wanted that darn paper. If I was Kotomi, I would have burned it too.

It was important research and someone else could have been funding it. Jobs may have been at stake. This stuff happens in the real world.

Now, for a 1 week wait until the next one. I'm glad that 13 wasn't the end. I guess the whole Rabbit/Deer thing will be explained, as well as Tomoya's flashback of the fire.

I thought it was mentioned already in another episode thread. It's a quote from a story about meeting someone in the past and falling in love with that person and that person comes back to the past again. A very big hint about someone imo. I also find that line to be very romantic.

Shiori-chan

2008-01-12, 13:10

really liked this episode, although it was pretty sad, like always this episode deserved a 10

FlareKnight

2008-01-12, 13:22

Was a solid episode where we got more information about what happened with Kotomi's past. A pretty sad state of affairs and just something that happens now and then. Child gets mad and something bad happens that they blame themselves for.

So 7/10 works fine for this one.

Zaris

2008-01-12, 13:47

I guess it's fortunate that Tomoya's dad can't access his bank account. :eyebrow:

Jokes aside, it was a good idea to watch episodes 12 and 13 together, although I wasn't looking forward to seeing Kotomi's disturbed face again. The new pieces of information didn't feel forcibly delivered or rushed. I'd say together, the facts come at a relatively smooth pace. It was an enjoyable hour to sit down and watch. Animation-wise, I especially liked the lighting effects of when the four of them were on the bus. Very soft and dim yet distinctly anime-esque.

Wait one more week and we'll see if the questions thrown up in the air will be investigated or ignored.

Takuto19

2008-01-12, 14:07

Animation-wise, I especially liked the lighting effects of when the four of them were on the bus. Very soft and dim yet distinctly anime-esque.

Heh i thought the exact same thing when i saw it, looked really good.

As for the episode as a whole i give it 8/10, it wasn't one of the best ones but it really shows how nice of a guy Tomoya can be.

I'm not sure if next weeks will end the Kotomi arc, but since they still have Tomoyo, Kyou and Nagisa's arc to do it wouldn't suprise me, but i havn't played Kotomi's arc in the game so i have no idea if it's near the end though.

Looking forward to next weeks, glad to be back after a 3 week break.

HayashiTakara

2008-01-12, 14:34

To me Nagisa is feeling like that person that always appears in pictures, no matter where you take it, but simply doesn't belong there.... It's like the person who insists on being in every single picture in the year book. Wait your turn will ya?

Proto

2008-01-12, 14:44

It's this turn thing that has carried on in every dating sim/visual novel and cousins adaptation that has started to get the genre stalled. Interweaving the character arcs seems like a wise decision to me, it gives more fluidity to the overall story, and more credibility to the overall conclusion.

HayashiTakara

2008-01-12, 15:04

Proto

2008-01-12, 15:26

On the other hand if you go to the other extreme you have the classic adaptation where it seems that the protagonist is just flirting with every available girl and just choosing the winner on a whim. And even then, it's not at bad as you make it seem. It's not like Nagisa had more screen time than Kotomi. And anyway if she and her classmates hadn't been there you would have had just Tomoya gardening her front yard :p

Maybe it is easier if I just state my point clearly. If I have to choose between more screentime for my favorite character X, and increased story fluidity and congruency I'll choose the latter.

superzombie23

2008-01-12, 15:48

Kristen

2008-01-12, 16:22

Fuko was a 2 lights for one deal. :heh: :joke:

It was important research and someone else could have been funding it. Jobs may have been at stake. This stuff happens in the real world.
Still doesn't make it any less depressing. As a small child, her guardien should have consoled her first, and maybe ask for it a couple of hours later.

I thought it was mentioned already in another episode thread. It's a quote from a story about meeting someone in the past and falling in love with that person and that person comes back to the past again. A very big hint about someone imo. I also find that line to be very romantic.

"The Deandellion Girl". I read it. It was a very amazing story. I just mean, like, what was the Deer and Rabbit in the house, and how is Tomoya connected to it?

Also, on an unrelated note:

TBS has announced a one week pause on February 21st. This means that Episode 18 will air February 14th, and episode 19 will air on the 28th.

amoirsp

2008-01-12, 17:04

Most of what I was intending to state was already stated, whether it was Nagisa additives or the slight differences to the original (like the gardening supplies, instructions, etc.)

However, something I either missed or didn't see mentioned made me curious.

The part-time thing Okazaki mentioned.

Game aside, how is that consistent with anything? Normally in Japan high schools (or at least typical settings/restrictions played in anime that have a high school) have it so that a student is not supposed/allowed to work on a part-time job during high school (or was it full time? I forgot the rules, as it can vary).

Now if the part-time restriction is not applied, meaning doing such work is permitted after school (could only be after school anyways), then Tomoya isn't exactly a delinquent if he is doing something contributive to society. Note how the anime didn't even specify which part time job it was (which isn't really relevant, especially since it's an additive).

And well, if the part-time restriction is there, isn't doing a part-time job still contributive to society? If the issue between Tomoya and his father manifested after the shoulder injury incident, which was late junior high and early high school, then the part-time work would have been done in high school, between years 1 and 3, but he's specifically a delinquent in high school. (Though on the other hand since the anime is ignoring several things such as little emphasis on the delinquent attitude side of Tomoya or having a totally healthy Nagisa, I suppose it doesn't denote downsides.)

Well I found this slightly contradictory. It had to be implemented to suggest a source of money, but at the same time it also doesn't make much sense.

This episode was very slow. Although it does explain things, it also lacks many things. Most of it was implied and not really displayed. Things like that delicious cake the mom baked. Kotomi originally ate half, then half, then half. The other half was intended to be for Tomoya (and this is supposed to explain the share food concept with Tomoya, except the anime didn't emphasize this one either, and also truncated the shared ice cream with Tomoya which was supposed to be suggestive.) The other would be picking up the phone call, but then rejecting it since it was from "outsiders", and then disconnecting the phone entirely.

Of course all of that was implied with the way it was displayed, though it's kind of funny that with the extra gardening input, surprisingly the other details were truncated. Considering how the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the episode was devoted to Kotomi explaining the past, leaving out smaller details that are synonymous to it is interesting to sight.

Well, the ending to the route obviously has to be somewhat different, so this might be part of the shift, though the overall idea won't change anyways.

And yes, the Nagisa emphasis doesn't do much. She didn't win Tomoya under conditions of helping other female character issues (Fuuko would be an exception, but then again the merging nullifies arcs that normally don't coexist.). The inputs are okay since it's not like pulling away from the main idea, but it's also unnecessary (though it is an improvement to Ayu allocation where even though there was emphasis, there was also a gigantic gap). In this case it's slightly different since Nagisa was inclusive to Fuuko and Kotomi's routes, but then what happens if a route occurs that wasn't Nagisa inclusive? (there's at least one, but that should be obvious) Oh wait, they'll just insert Nagisa, I forgot.

I suppose this is the weakness of merging routes. You get nice stories, but you also could lose overall impact in terms of the primary character (ironically, despite emphasis) and incidentally a secondary character would seem more significant (in Kanon, Ayu had emphasis and is the primary, but the progress of the anime makes either Nayuki or Mai seem more significant in a more overall spectrum.) At this rate Kyou would seem most useful in the overall spectrum because she's a much better support character. Note that there's nothing wrong with Nagisa being the primary character, but the merging equation also makes her seem like a terrible support character too. A different company usually would have similarities, but have it more like the support characters help primary girl + protagonist or hint on that and cause either truncations or bad endings of other girls.

In other words, uh I don't think they even needed the Nagisa additive emphasis in this episode at all. If it wasn't there, the episode ironically would have flowed better.

orion

2008-01-12, 17:21

The problem with shoving Nagisa into the story makes it feel like she's stealing away Kotomi's importance, it's like yeah, we know you're gonna be the winner in the end, but please stop stealing the spotlight, please?

Well it would also be more accurate view of the relationship imo. He goes over to Nagisa's more often than we see in the anime from what he said in one of Kotomi's episodes. Nagisa is his girlfirend-to-be. No first kiss, but a pseudo-slept together at the school. So yeah, she's going to be sticking to him like glue. That's what happens in relationships. She's also been encouraging him along from the sidelines.

So if Nagisa wasn't in the majority of the episodes interacting with Tomoya, I'd be wondering what's up.

"The Deandellion Girl". I read it. It was a very amazing story. I just mean, like, what was the Deer and Rabbit in the house, and how is Tomoya connected to it?

Maybe it's not the animals in the house but what the original speaker of that line was referring to and the original speaker's background that can be applied to the series.

Klashikari

2008-01-12, 17:35

The problem with shoving Nagisa into the story makes it feel like she's stealing away Kotomi's importance, it's like yeah, we know you're gonna be the winner in the end, but please stop stealing the spotlight, please?
You are creating problems from thin air. character appearing onscreen doesn't mean anything if it is shown under a secondary spotlight or such sort.
Nagisa's involvement in this episode is just as much as Ryou and Kyou do in the previous episodes, except she is obviously closer to Tomoya, than the Fujibayashi twins are for him.

The scripters actually have to involve the others characters to create cohesion, otherwise, why would kotomi call them friends if they aren't showed up?

Kotomi showed her liking for Tomoya quite several times, but also for her friends as well. There is a reason she mentions them and also there are reasons why she spend time with them during the "drama club activities"' instead of staying in the library with tomoya.

I think you are just tilting on Nagisa's screentime because of her "permanent" presence in Fuuko's arc and the like. It is simply natural considering how she is in touch with most people, because Tomoya was first helping her for the drama club.

As already shown, Nagisa doesn't have any spotlight of the like, she barely has more solo scenes with Tomoya than the Fujibayashi twins. Aside of it, she is simply a support character for Kotomi.
If a character is actually stealing the spotlight because s/he helps the person in need, I wonder what Youhei is then...

The part-time thing Okazaki mentioned.

Game aside, how is that consistent with anything? Normally in Japan high schools (or at least typical settings/restrictions played in anime that have a high school) have it so that a student is not supposed/allowed to work on a part-time job during high school (or was it full time? I forgot the rules, as it can vary).

Now if the part-time restriction is not applied, meaning doing such work is permitted after school (could only be after school anyways), then Tomoya isn't exactly a delinquent if he is doing something contributive to society. Note how the anime didn't even specify which part time job it was (which isn't really relevant, especially since it's an additive).

And well, if the part-time restriction is there, isn't doing a part-time job still contributive to society? If the issue between Tomoya and his father manifested after the shoulder injury incident, which was late junior high and early high school, then the part-time work would have been done in high school, between years 1 and 3, but he's specifically a delinquent in high school. (Though on the other hand since the anime is ignoring several things such as little emphasis on the delinquent attitude side of Tomoya or having a totally healthy Nagisa, I suppose it doesn't denote downsides.)

Well I found this slightly contradictory. It had to be implemented to suggest a source of money, but at the same time it also doesn't make much sense.

I don't actually understand your rant about the part time job.
In reality, do you think all students are following this "no part time job" rule? It isn't surprising to see underaged fellow working for simple tasks and the like. It is simply a no brainer: he was caught any time he did (and even if he was, big deal: warning nothing much). While this point is reality, the way how it is enforced isn't as serious as people might think, though there are obviously controls of their age etc.

Now, for the delinquent part... I think you are restricting to much with the "punk" definition of it. Such word in japan society can be simply used for "fool of society", rebel students who don't follow the pack, therfore, won't be really welcome to the society.
Whatever they grades and their "contribution", if they are unfit for society and community, they are simply outcast. And personally, I don't think the "good ol' society" would mention the "contributions" of baito-kun and freeters. Not at all, they are quite the second handed manpower around, not really contributors such like salarymen etc.

As for Nagisa health situation: it is simply like in the game, she is simply weak but that doesn't mean she is the kind of sick person who would breath very hard just after running 20 meters.
Having a weak body doesn't mean you are a bedridden person, but fragile enough to be weak against some situations and so forth, explaining why she had to skip 9 months the previous year. Nothing else, it isn't anything contradictory and such thing happens in reality as well (anemic people, etc).

as for the rest of your post, I agree that some parts were quite overlooked. However, considering the time constraints and the fact they had to keep cohesion (as they cannot show Tomoya going "mister garden" for mere 5 minutes), I can see how they have to sacrifice some parts of the progression. At least the transition is progressive and well done, unlike in the game where there is a utter lack of "time reference" and progression, which obviously twist "how big" tomoya's challenge was from the start. In fact the anime actually showed how troublesome it was, while the game was kinda too limited.

Skyfall

2008-01-12, 18:12

Most of what I was intending to state was already stated, whether it was Nagisa additives or the slight differences to the original (like the gardening supplies, instructions, etc.)

However, something I either missed or didn't see mentioned made me curious.

The part-time thing Okazaki mentioned.

Game aside, how is that consistent with anything? Normally in Japan high schools (or at least typical settings/restrictions played in anime that have a high school) have it so that a student is not supposed/allowed to work on a part-time job during high school (or was it full time? I forgot the rules, as it can vary).

Now if the part-time restriction is not applied, meaning doing such work is permitted after school (could only be after school anyways), then Tomoya isn't exactly a delinquent if he is doing something contributive to society. Note how the anime didn't even specify which part time job it was (which isn't really relevant, especially since it's an additive).

And well, if the part-time restriction is there, isn't doing a part-time job still contributive to society? If the issue between Tomoya and his father manifested after the shoulder injury incident, which was late junior high and early high school, then the part-time work would have been done in high school, between years 1 and 3, but he's specifically a delinquent in high school. (Though on the other hand since the anime is ignoring several things such as little emphasis on the delinquent attitude side of Tomoya or having a totally healthy Nagisa, I suppose it doesn't denote downsides.)

Well I found this slightly contradictory. It had to be implemented to suggest a source of money, but at the same time it also doesn't make much sense.

I don't get what you are trying to complain about (besides the anime not following game to every single line said by every single character, which i don't exactly consider reasonable complaint).

How does Tomoya having a job in the past relate to him being labeled a delinquent anyway ? First of - it was in the past, second - he is labeled such by people who wouldn't know he even had a job in the first place, so there are no inconsistencies here at all. Not like Tomoya would care about some school restrictions anyway ...not like it stops people in reality from having part-time jobs either. It seems you are merely seems you are complaining they added a sentence that wasn't in the game ... since when was this supposed to be sticking 110% to the game like a glue anyway ? I would comment on your Nagisa mention which is incorrect as well, but that would be going beyond the discussion intended for this thread as it would be referencing to game material.

I suppose this is the weakness of merging routes. You get nice stories, but you also could lose overall impact in terms of the primary character (ironically, despite emphasis) and incidentally a secondary character would seem more significant (in Kanon, Ayu had emphasis and is the primary, but the progress of the anime makes either Nayuki or Mai seem more significant in a more overall spectrum.) At this rate Kyou would seem most useful in the overall spectrum because she's a much better support character. Note that there's nothing wrong with Nagisa being the primary character, but the merging equation also makes her seem like a terrible support character too. A different company usually would have similarities, but have it more like the support characters help primary girl + protagonist or hint on that and cause either truncations or bad endings of other girls.

In other words, uh I don't think they even needed the Nagisa additive emphasis in this episode at all. If it wasn't there, the episode ironically would have flowed better.

Sorry, but i can't see any of this as objective complaints. You seem to be too fixated on the game, and how things happened in the game and assume everything has to be the same in the anime, down to the very bone ...except there is no basis for such assumptions. It might be your preference, but it isn't an actual flaw of the anime in any way. You seem to see things in a light of how you want them to be, and anything outside of that is considered a flaw by default.

The game is the game, and the anime is the anime. The two are not identically the same to every detail, nor are they supposed to be. Obviously the anime is not perfect and has its flaws, but not being exactly the same is not one of them.

Sorrow-K

2008-01-12, 18:22

I missed this show so much that I lost sleep waiting for the fansub to be released. I think I'm a lost cause.

It was a good episode, but I'm not going to go over the top and proclaim it as a super duper impressive backstory, since it wasn't that great. I mean, the backstory itself wasn't a bad one, but it was told in such a straight way that it didn't really have a huge amount of emotional impact. It was a bit like: "once upon a time I lived a beautiful life, and then tragedy struck", and that's it. I mean, that's all well and good, but it feels much more like a set-up for what's coming than something which the audience is supposed to find dramatic, let alone heart-wrenching, in itself.

Okazaki is so awesome. There's no other way to put it. Some people are sayers and some people are doers, and there's no question what Okazaki is. Actions like this, ie something that requires both caring thought and effort, make him so easy to like and respect. Good stuff... male leads like this are to rare in comparison to the ones that win girls over by generic acts of niceness (the types that anyone can do) or rely on the fact that they've known the girl since childhood. Okazaki isn't even trying to "win over" Kotomi, he's doing it because he's genuinely concerned about her. All the better.

orion

2008-01-12, 18:42

I think that Nagisa also deserves a pat on the back. Where other girlfriends would have said "Kotomi suck it up and deal with your issues without my bf. My bf ain't going to clean your garden. Hire someone to do it yourself.", Nagisa encouraged Tomoya to help Kotomi and wasn't too upset with Tomoya being alone with Kotomi.

Nagisa is also putting others ahead of herself imo. Of course, that behaviour can backfire. I think that she needs to be a little selfish especially for the fans that want more Nagisa x Tomoya moments. :love:

Fuko needs to reappear and give Tomoya and Nagisa a smackdown. :heh:

Mirrinus

2008-01-12, 20:55

I think the whole argument over Nagisa's role in the arc is really nothing more than silly ship-to-ship combat...meh...

holyman282

2008-01-12, 21:15

Wow this ep was good! We really got to see Kotomi getting all emotional and it's good to know she isn't just a shy bookworm inside. The most dramatic scene this ep would have to be Kotomi lighting up those papers, the way in which her hands shook as she tried to light the match. Damn perfect! Great ep.

amoirsp

2008-01-12, 22:15

Thanks for the clarification about the part-time thing. It was bothersome since I misinterpreted it and thought it was a contradiction, but didn't think that if it was for a small savings fund, that it wouldn't be displayed as fact (I forgot the mere fact that the part-time thing would be secretive anyways, so it would be unknown), among the other reasons given.

The rest of my rant was just a mess up of statements. I just thought that the inserts do go along with the flow, but not sure why it was inputted. Yes, I did go overboard with the game correlation, and that was my mistake. It's more like the restoration of the garden was a key point, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to truly signify. Perhaps I missed the point.

Well I need to work on sorting my thoughts. I jumble it too much and run on unnecessarily (the rants aren't structured, but more like mumbling ramblings of preferences). Thanks for the explanations.

Owaranai Destiny

2008-01-12, 23:53

Episode 13 thoughts:

-Something about Kotomi's backstory gave me an overwhelming sense of pity and sympathy, but it was indeed a little too straightforward and some would consider that monotonous. That's Kotomi I guess, sounding resigned and a little too world-weary after what she's been through.

-Lots of mysteries were solved, like why she had been cutting out pages from books, why she introduced herself the way she did (Reckon it was her first and most comfortable way for her), why she displayed an affection for stuffed toys (hugging bear-suit Tomoyo, no less) . I suspect learning the violin when she was younger and wanting to play it again was tied in to her father's story about the harps in the sky, seeing as almost quirky habit she had displayed was involved with her parents whom she loved so much.

Nothing much to say about the other girls. Kyou was being Kyou as usual, while Ryou was the same. I have to give credit to Nagisa, though, that she wanted to help Tomoya out despite inconveniencing herself. Not only is it an act repaid in gratitude of how Tomoya has helped her, but doing so showed her to be someone who's willing to help to the point where Tomoya had to give in. Comparisons to most real-life girls would put them to shame.

-This must be the first time I haven't laughed at all in an entire Clannad episode, maybe except for the hint part. Nagisa reminded me so much of Shiori just then. :heh: For another Kanon reference, I noticed a Keropi on a handheld fan on the teacher's desk. Just an observation. ;)

-This episode was mostly Kotomi and Tomoya, and the latter is doing a great job of taking brownie points from us viewers. He's working his ass off (and it's not even an excuse to skip classes) to help Kotomi in any way he can and despairing about the possibility of all his hard work going to waste if it wasn't effective showed that he had no other motives other than to see Kotomi recover and be happy again.

As a standalone episode, I wouldn't call it great, but this was a wonderful set-up cum revelation episode. The preview also had be waiting even more impatiently for the next episode, as it would most probably be the last one for Kotomi, and I'll want to see what exactly was it that she was "waiting for".

8/10.

todkapuz

2008-01-13, 02:07

Kotomi-chann~~~~~

Anyhow... again not a whole lot I can add... but i will agree that it felt like something was missing from this.. I Can't quite put my tounge to it... but all in all it was well done.... I'm just glad I dont have to wait so long for the next episode :)

I think my favorite part, really, was that a bike was to be blamed for the breakage of the violin. :) quite fitting, really.

Dxon

2008-01-13, 05:00

I dont like Kotomi for burning the thesis. Dunno why but I just dont like her anymore.....
It made really annoyed when I watched that part...

Sheba

2008-01-13, 05:50

Okazaki is so awesome. There's no other way to put it. Some people are sayers and some people are doers, and there's no question what Okazaki is. Actions like this, ie something that requires both caring thought and effort, make him so easy to like and respect. Good stuff... male leads like this are to rare in comparison to the ones that win girls over by generic acts of niceness (the types that anyone can do) or rely on the fact that they've known the girl since childhood. Okazaki isn't even trying to "win over" Kotomi, he's doing it because he's genuinely concerned about her. All the better.

I wholeheartly agreed with this statement. This is what made Tomoya stand above the many male leads of renai-to-anime adaptations. It's sad that some people refuse to see beyond the "Typically sarcastic Key-game male lead" shell.

As for the episode, I gave it a 7. The backstory would have gained more with a little bit of emotion, even if I am not asking for a big BAAAAAWWW moment. But what win in the episode is Tomoya's deep and sincere (?) concern over Kotomi, and the fact that Nagisa and the twins also sacrificed their times to help Tomoya out.

Itadakimasu!

2008-01-13, 06:23

I have to agree that Okazaki is much more fleshed out than some people reckon he is... but for this episode... Chibi Kotomi wins!

FCS-31

2008-01-13, 06:30

KOTOMI-CHWANNNN!!!! 10/10...

I sure hope Nagisa doesn't steal any of her thunder... when she appeared in this episode it made me shudder... this is suppose to be a story between Kotomi and Okazaki....

Well.......

What I want to say is.......The "clannad" is a story between tomoya and nigasa.......You will find that Nagisa is one of the most important person in the whole story as well as tomoya.

The Chaos

2008-01-13, 07:23

Really I Loved This Ep... :)
Poor Kotomi-Chan...I Hope She Get Over it...
I Give This Ep 9/10..

fuzzles

2008-01-13, 08:04

gonna miss the kotomi moe moments this basically marks the end of all that :( i'm never gonna laugh so hard again oh wait still sunohara

the whole backstory thing probably could've been done better, i don't think kotomi destroyed the thesis though she only destroyed an envelope which may or may not have had a sheet in it whatever was in her father's briefcase was a hell of a lot bigger. it's definatelyg otta do with the other world

Klashikari

2008-01-13, 08:08

i don't think kotomi destroyed the thesis though she only destroyed an envelope which may or may not have had a sheet in it whatever was in her father's briefcase was a hell of a lot bigger. it's definatelyg otta do with the other world

A thesis might require more documents, involving bibliography, sources, illustrations, demonstrations and such sort.
It is possible that they had the full thesis in their hands, while the core of it was in the enveloppe.

orion

2008-01-13, 08:39

To me, it didn't matter that she destroyed the manuscript or bibliography. The point is that she destroyed something important because she blamed "it" for killing her parents and went further to call that co-worker a "bad man" even though he was probably stuck as her guardian because no one else wanted to care for her.

Kotomi was a spoiled kid who got mad at her parents for going away on a business trip and missing her party. Since she wasn't popular, she didn't develop social skills to seek the few that would accept her. She later blamed it on her being too smart. (Well, she could have read books her level too and played age appropriate games with the other kids. Duh!) She relied too much on her parents for socialization and had no one come to her party because of it. Double duh! Since she wasn't sociable, no one wanted to care for her after her parents death. Triple duh! (Members of a society can choose not to take care of you when your parents die.) She said something she shouldn't and her parents died. She later blamed an important document for it, burned it and could have taken her house and other people's property with it. Idiot!

The chick has psych issues up the wazoo. She blames others for things that she also is responsible for. She did not actively seek to change things and instead chose the matyr route imo. She is playing the part of the victim in this whole scenario and I bet a part of her loves it.

Instead of compassion, someone needs to kick her ass and give her a reality check imo.

And...
Don't get me started about that garden. She has funds to live off of. She needs to get her butt up and tend that backyard. She's bringing down the property value of the neighborhood imo. If I was her neighbor, I would have reported her to the authorities a long time ago.

Owaranai Destiny

2008-01-13, 09:33

Kotomi was a spoiled kid who got mad at her parents for going away on a business trip and missing her party.

Not that I disagree completely. Then again, lots of kids do that when their parents have apparently broken a promise.

She later blamed it on her being too smart. (Well, she could have read books her level too and played age appropriate games with the other kids. Duh!) She relied too much on her parents for socialization and had no one come to her party because of it. Double duh! Since she wasn't sociable, no one wanted to care for her after her parents death. Triple duh!

Developing social skills take time, and parents can play some part in that as well. Aside from that, you wouldn't really know how to pick up social skills when you aren't that similar with the other kids, would you? Besides, the behaviour she displayed towards any other people aside from Tomoya tells me she's quite the introvert and wouldn't immediately speak up to others first. Tells me a lot about her personality.

She said something she shouldn't and her parents died. She later blamed an important document for it, burned it and could have taken her house and other people's property with it. Idiot!

From the POV of someone who has been in society for a while about the actions of a kid who knows little about being maganimous and thinking things through when her mind's in a mess due to the death of her parents. Brilliant statement, I say. ;)

The chick has psych issues up the wazoo. She blames others for things that she also is responsible for. She did not actively seek to change things and instead chose the matyr route imo. She is playing the part of the victim in this whole scenario and I bet a part of her loves it.

Can't disagree with you entirely. I did think the child Kotomi was selfish, and her monologue even implied that. What I think is wrong is 'loving the part of being a victim'. Where's the evidence? Besides, she's simply telling Tomoya what happened from her point of view, and I don't believe Kotomi loved being a victim, since all she wanted was to get her parents back.

Don't get me started about that garden. She has funds to live off of. She needs to get her butt up and tend that backyard. She's bringing down the property value of the neighborhood imo.

Something I believe she doesn't give a damn about, apparently. Who cares about property values and backyard tidiness if no one's going to use it?

Deathkillz

2008-01-13, 09:36

Ouch :heh:
Kotomi is spoilt by her family, lets face it, she had everything she could have ever wanted and then some. But no one could have predicted that he one act of selfishness could have caused the accident - I assume that it was the case because they were hurrying to get to where ever they were trying to go (or it could have just happened anyway without the selfish crying, which would have brought more trauma :rolleyes:). She is way too dependent on her parents but still she was just a kid. Some are natrually shy so I'm not surprised that she isn't very talkative even when she was at school. Together with being smart, what the other kids say to her was just on a different wavelength.
I can see why she burnt the documents though. To her, it was as if noone cared about the fact that her family died, and just wanted a piece of paper. Her parents died trying to deliver the documents yet they have the nerve to ask for it straight away when finding out that another copy was in the house? She didn't feel that they had compassion as well as the old man sent to get the documents looking like pedo bear. She has an excuse for acting rash being a child - yet I also think that she needs to snap out of it.

Kinny Riddle

2008-01-13, 11:04

Seriously, all you unforgiving and heartless people need to cut Kotomi some slack! Yes, she's a spoilt brat for saying she "hated them" for such selfish reasons, but she was less than 10 years old, for god's sake, you expect her to behave like a "grown up"?

And don't give me this crap about you or some other kids in impoverished countries acting more mature because that's just cherry picking. You have not experienced losing your parents just after you pouted to them, and then having to face the trauma of realizing you can never right the wrong you have done.

And has she not been punished enough for it that you have to be so bloody unrelentless in your Spanish Inquisition and have her burn to the stakes for being so un-grown-up?

(Que Michael Palin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Palin) dressed up as Cardinal Jiménez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Cardinal_Jim%C3%A9nez_de_Cisneros) and yelling: NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanish_Inquisition_%28Monty_Python%29)! :cool: )

Perhaps Clannad isn't the show for you if even your reaction to her unfortunate predicament is unrelenting scorn and ridicule rather than pity and compassion.

^ here are some pictures for reference:
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/th_CLANNADep13055.jpg (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/CLANNADep13055.jpg) http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/th_CLANNADep13061.jpg (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/CLANNADep13061.jpg) http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/th_CLANNADep13063.jpg (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc65/kl4shik4ri3/more/CLANNADep13063.jpg)

it seems the start wasn't really balanced to begin with. Ryou sure goes ahead, but the width of her weed extermination area is sure short :heh:

Anyway, to continue on the weed removal progress, it seems Tomoya, despite equipped with a shovel, is still no match for the other three girls who were pulling the weeds with their bare hands. Shame on you Tomoya. :D

orion

2008-01-13, 11:42

Not that I disagree completely. Then again, lots of kids do that when their parents have apparently broken a promise.

No, lots of spoiled kids do that. The properly trained ones know better. The birthday could have been celebrated after the parents returned. They could have done something before leaving. The parents were even bargaining with her before they left (bigger toy) and she still was upset and wouldn't budge.

Developing social skills take time, and parents can play some part in that as well. Aside from that, you wouldn't really know how to pick up social skills when you aren't that similar with the other kids, would you? Besides, the behaviour she displayed towards any other people aside from Tomoya tells me she's quite the introvert and wouldn't immediately speak up to others first. Tells me a lot about her personality.

Actually, my family has loads of smart people in it who have trouble making friends. That's a part of growing up and we teach our younger relatives to keep at it. Kotomi just gave up, blamed others for her situation and relied on her family too much. When they were removed, she had nothing and became the person she is now.

From the POV of someone who has been in society for a while about the actions of a kid who knows little about being maganimous and thinking things through when her mind's in a mess due to the death of her parents. Brilliant statement, I say. ;)

So her only recourse was to burn something. This is the rational of someone in need of psych help. Since she had full reasoning at the time, "idiot" is being to kind imo.

Can't disagree with you entirely. I did think the child Kotomi was selfish, and her monologue even implied that. What I think is wrong is 'loving the part of being a victim'. Where's the evidence? Besides, she's simply telling Tomoya what happened from her point of view, and I don't believe Kotomi loved being a victim, since all she wanted was to get her parents back.

There's massive evidence. This is what secondary gain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_Gain) is all about. She has a cute guy hanging out with her and giving her loads of attention. Hell, he's even cleaning her garden for free. She even has a guy who she can tells others is "bad". The protective reflex of everyone for this chick hits the roof. She even got girls doing her gardening and paying for her violin to get fixed. Loads of profit here for Kotomi.

And also because of her "special situation", she didn't have to attend class. Even the school was accomodating this girl. Not to mention a concert so that everyone could hear her play badly. You know in the real world she would have been suspended by now imo.

Something I believe she doesn't give a damn about, apparently. Who cares about property values and backyard tidiness if no one's going to use it?

But this makes her look more the victim and people start to pity her more. Again, more secondary gain for Kotomi. She should have been reported to the authorities, moved in with a foster family and given psych therapy imo.

Sheba

2008-01-13, 11:52

But this makes her look more the victim and people start to pity her more.

You are making it look like a calculated move. :eyebrow:

orion

2008-01-13, 12:06

You are making it look like a calculated move. :eyebrow:

Not necessarily calculated maneuvers on her part. It's all secondary gain reinforcing her primary illness/problem from my viewpoint. As I said before, she needs a reality check and therapy.

Owaranai Destiny

2008-01-13, 12:26

No, lots of spoiled kids do that. The properly trained ones know better. The birthday could have been celebrated after the parents returned. They could have done something before leaving. The parents were even bargaining with her before they left (bigger toy) and she still was upset and wouldn't budge.

Not much of a question, but how many kids out there are "trained" in that sense? No doubt she was spoilt, and Kotomi isn't at fault that it turned that way.

Her parents are giving her what she doesn't want: Love in a material sense, and while I'm aware that "trained" kids are more well-behaved and most certainly would not show their displeasure at not being able to feel loved and have their family around them, Kotomi simply lacks the discipline of not being able to display her unhappiness.

Spoilt? Yes, maybe. But Kotomi certainly didn't ask to be like that.

Actually, my family has loads of smart people in it who have trouble making friends. That's a part of growing up and we teach our younger relatives to keep at it. Kotomi just gave up, blamed others for her situation and relied on her family too much. When they were removed, she had nothing and became the person she is now.

Well, I say you have a nice family. Not everyone has a family like yours. I could still recall a tad bit of callousness on the part of my parents when I talked to them about the problem of not being able to make friends, mostly because they were busy with work.

What a kid needs is the rely on others sometimes.

So her only recourse was to burn something. This is the rational of someone in need of psych help. Since she had full reasoning at the time, "idiot" is being to kind imo.

Come on...I do believe everyone would think of or really go about doing crazy things as a kid, what more her situation? The way you put it, we might need to introduce lots of kids around the world to that guy wearing a flower pot as the latest fashion in a nice medical facility with strange people.

There's massive evidence. This is what secondary gain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_Gain) is all about. She has a cute guy hanging out with her and giving her loads of attention. Hell, he's even cleaning her garden for free. She even has a guy who she can tells others is "bad". The protective reflex of everyone for this chick hits the roof. She even got girls doing her gardening and paying for her violin to get fixed. Loads of profit here for Kotomi.

And also because of her "special situation", she didn't have to attend class. Even the school was accomodating this girl. Not to mention a concert so that everyone could hear her play badly. You know in the real world she would have been suspended by now imo.

Was she aware at all? Next you will be telling me she suddenly went into a fit to exaggerate her situation.:rolleyes: From the definition, it seems that Kotomi might not be even be aware of the secondary gain factor at all. It's profit she didn't know she could have, and probably didn't want to have.

Don't know much about Geniuses and any perks real schools would afford to them, so can't really talk about that. However, note that the concert was organised for her by Kyou. I won't be surprised if you start accusing Kyou of trying to go for secondary gain as well here, since she can make money out of earplugs. :heh:

But this makes her look more the victim and people start to pity her more. Again, more secondary gain for Kotomi. She should have been reported to the authorities, moved in with a foster family and given psych therapy imo.

For what? Not knowing that the actions and thoughts of others are getting her into your category of "People who need Psychological Help?" :eyespin:

Which reminds me: How did she manage to survive on her own if all she did was rely on others thus far?

Kaioshin Sama

2008-01-13, 13:20

I wouldn't have gotten into any sort of vehicle in a Key game. That was a life costing mistake as I don't think there has been any Key game to date were an arc hasn't revolved around somebody getting killed in a car, bus or plane accident. I wouldn't blame Kotomi so much as the way the stories are written for her sad situation.

Proto

2008-01-13, 13:42

I take your challenge and counter with AIR ^_^

But still, while I can only remember 3 or 4 instances of characters being killed by the power of the wheel in KEY games, 2 of them were in CLANNAD so indeed I see your point of it being a little overused.

dgreater1

2008-01-13, 14:28

Who's bullying Kotomi?! Show yourself! I'm her certified guar... erm... her protector!

Oh... you? I'm giving you my two 25cents...

One thing to remember... Kids are almost always selfish in nature. They are almost always spoiled no matter how well you raise them. And they will almost, always rely on grown-ups on various things. I'd be suprised like shit if I see a real kid acting like grown up (that's acting like a mature 15+ years old person who at least has an idea what's right and wrong and what should be and what should be not)... how can I say something like this? Well, I live in a heavily populated place where you have no choice but to cope up kids here and there so in short... I've seen plenty of kids here with various behaviour but none are very close to being a grown up... I would agree if you talk about a well behaved kid, but being well behaved doesn't mean the kid has lose his/her spoiled nature, that kid will go in spoiled mode sometimes.

As for Kotomi (grown-up), I don't think she's being a spoiled person, since she isn't being overindulgence about things and she behaves quite well... and don't forget that her personality has been improving despite she acts timid just like a child (From totally timid, to a little openminded). Don't forget about the scene where she was teaching her classmates some math problems, and how she was able to perform... badly :heh:... in front of the people. Normally, she would just shrink away from them just like what she looked like at Kouko's wedding. :)

So her only recourse was to burn something. This is the rational of someone in need of psych help. Since she had full reasoning at the time, "idiot" is being to kind imo.

Anyway... you're talking about a "kid who has just lost her parent on her birthday" what's worst, the last thing she remembers saying to them is "I hate you"... psych isn't the kind of help she needs here. She's still a kid so she's confused as to what exactly is happening around her. (Which reminds me... will psych really work well with a kid who hasn't really developed a high mental think of what should be and what should be not?)

By the way... was her reason for studying diligently been explained in the anime? I can't seem to remember and I don't have enough time to to watch the show again XD

I take your challenge and counter with AIR ^_^

How about the famous motorcycle over the shed accident :heh: no fatalities though
Anyway, add PLANETARIAN to the list.

And I don't think there's anyone who died in a traffic accident except someone from CLANNAD which we probably wouldn't even see what the person looked like.
Haven't played LB yet so I have no idea about it.

orion

2008-01-13, 17:29

Not much of a question, but how many kids out there are "trained" in that sense? No doubt she was spoilt, and Kotomi isn't at fault that it turned that way.

Her parents are giving her what she doesn't want: Love in a material sense, and while I'm aware that "trained" kids are more well-behaved and most certainly would not show their displeasure at not being able to feel loved and have their family around them, Kotomi simply lacks the discipline of not being able to display her unhappiness.

Spoilt? Yes, maybe. But Kotomi certainly didn't ask to be like that.

My family is trained that way. I would have have gotten socked for that outburst by my father. My mother would have cried.

Kotomi wasn't complaining when she got her way. It's when adversity struck that she cracked.

Well, I say you have a nice family. Not everyone has a family like yours. I could still recall a tad bit of callousness on the part of my parents when I talked to them about the problem of not being able to make friends, mostly because they were busy with work.

What a kid needs is the rely on others sometimes.

Why thank you. :D My family prides itself on producing independent children. It's the pathway to survival and economic growth in this society. Friends can be a transient messy existence with cliques, etc. Following your own path and finding positive relationships is always the best imo. If your current group sucks, make new friends imo. This is something that Kotomi wasn't taught early on.

And before you guys say it, this message is taught to my 7 yo niece. :heh:

Come on...I do believe everyone would think of or really go about doing crazy things as a kid, what more her situation? The way you put it, we might need to introduce lots of kids around the world to that guy wearing a flower pot as the latest fashion in a nice medical facility with strange people.

Setting a fire puts you in a different category. It requires therapy imo.

Was she aware at all? Next you will be telling me she suddenly went into a fit to exaggerate her situation.:rolleyes: From the definition, it seems that Kotomi might not be even be aware of the secondary gain factor at all. It's profit she didn't know she could have, and probably didn't want to have.

Don't know much about Geniuses and any perks real schools would afford to them, so can't really talk about that. However, note that the concert was organised for her by Kyou. I won't be surprised if you start accusing Kyou of trying to go for secondary gain as well here, since she can make money out of earplugs. :heh:

She's a dependent type and depressed most likely with other issues. The secondary gain only reinforces her current behaviour. The concert in question had to at least be approved by the student council and prob the school hierachy also. Like I said, instead of saying "Play it and out you go" (normal adminstration response), they hold a concert and she gets maximum attention from it.

Totally forgot to mention destruction of school property. She was tearing pages out of the library textbooks. They had enough on her to chuck her out probably. That poor guardian must be paying off a lot of people on her behalf. :heh:

or what? Not knowing that the actions and thoughts of others are getting her into your category of "People who need Psychological Help?" :eyespin:

Which reminds me: How did she manage to survive on her own if all she did was rely on others thus far?

For being at the least a depressed minor living without proper supervision and causing problems with the property there should have been 2 reports : department of social services for her living conditions and the police for the property issues. Where I live you have to keep your lawns manicured or you are fined. It's like that in most areas I believe.

That's the beauty of this title. It probably won't go in the details. She prob has an inheritence from her dead parents. People without income can not live the way she does. If that poor ex-coworker is her guardian, he is probably looking after her from afar.

I do believe that on a level she is aware of what she is doing especially if she can go into that level of detail in her explanation to Tomoya. However, her ability to correct her "errors in living" on her own may be limited. Hence, my stance that she needs therapy.

Anyways, we have 2 episodes to see Tomoya's miraculous healing of Kotomi.

Sheba

2008-01-13, 18:19

Setting a fire puts you in a different category. It requires therapy imo.

I used to burn car toys as a kid, do I need to be sent in an asylum?
:eyebrow:

Proto

2008-01-13, 19:04

Pretty much. Why are you still here?
.
.
.
Anyway Orion, it's not like Kotomi's and her parents are breaking the central dogma and the seven golden laws under which all the offspring of men must be educated under. It is difficult to say which is better than another since each one carries its set of advantages or disadvantages, but trying to set your own experiences and local laws as the absolute truth of the universe won't get you much sympathy while trying to prove your point :p

Owaranai Destiny

2008-01-13, 20:18

My family is trained that way. I would have have gotten socked for that outburst by my father. My mother would have cried.

Kotomi wasn't complaining when she got her way. It's when adversity struck that she cracked.

Hmm...Looks like neither you nor I can judge Kotomi's parents at all, then, considering their circumstances are different from ours.

Why thank you. :D My family prides itself on producing independent children. It's the pathway to survival and economic growth in this society. Friends can be a transient messy existence with cliques, etc. Following your own path and finding positive relationships is always the best imo. If your current group sucks, make new friends imo. This is something that Kotomi wasn't taught early on.

And before you guys say it, this message is taught to my 7 yo niece. :heh:

Attributed to busy parents and no nice and friendly neighbours. Which reminds me: Were there any neighbours in the first place? Where were their relatives, if they had any who wanted to bother with their family? :eyespin:

She's a dependent type and depressed most likely with other issues. The secondary gain only reinforces her current behaviour. The concert in question had to at least be approved by the student council and prob the school hierachy also. Like I said, instead of saying "Play it and out you go" (normal adminstration response), they hold a concert and she gets maximum attention from it.

If we are to iron out all the details, I'd agree, but the show isn't about to show how they managed to set up a concert and waste some time on that, though it should be worth a mention. How do you define 'maximum attention?'

For being at the least a depressed minor living without proper supervision and causing problems with the property there should have been 2 reports : department of social services for her living conditions and the police for the property issues. Where I live you have to keep your lawns manicured or you are fined. It's like that in most areas I believe.

You don't live in her neighbourhood. :p As for being a depressed minor...That's going to be a question about her guardian and whether he has officially taken up guardianship of Kotomi at all.

I do believe that on a level she is aware of what she is doing especially if she can go into that level of detail in her explanation to Tomoya. However, her ability to correct her "errors in living" on her own may be limited. Hence, my stance that she needs therapy.

Anyways, we have 2 episodes to see Tomoya's miraculous healing of Kotomi.

Perhaps that's the reason why she's so depressed, as you have mentioned? Kotomi might know about it, but she might not know how to go about taking care of her problems. That's where this 'therapy' comes in in the form of Tomoya and her friends.

I guess people can view therapy not as a necessarily bad thing-as a proof that you're cracked-but more like a means to help those who are in need of it.

Ascaloth

2008-01-13, 20:26

On another note, I was taking a introductory module in Japanese Studies last semester, and one topic they touched on is the socialization of children in the proper behaviour of uchi (home) and soto (outdoors) situations; basically, the differences in how one is supposed to act towards members of one's own family as opposed to people in the outside world.

If you listen to the sequence where Loli Kotomi prays to God to return her parents, you'll notice that at one point she says the world "wagamama" (translated by TWH-Sprocket as "selfish"). Wagamama means something to the effect of "to act spoiled"; the interesting thing here, is that Japanese children are socialized to exhibit courtesy towards people outside the family (friends, co-workers, bosses etc.), but it is generally acceptable, nay, expected that they exhibit spoiled behaviour towards members of their own family. The reasoning behind this is that it is better for children to act wagamama towards family rather than towards people in society, and in fact, children acting wagamama towards family is generally seen as a sign of family warmth. A Japanese child who does not act wagamama towards his/her own family would be seen as cold and unloving, and in fact the parent would worry whether he/she is being wagamama towards other people, where it is inappropriate.

Therefore, taken in Kotomi's context, her acting spoiled is actually quite normal. She can learn (and probably she already has learned) to be courteous towards outsiders (like Shota Tomoya, for example), but her acting wagamama towards her own parents was basically par for the course in any Japanese family. There's no 'bad parenting' in it...unless one wants to say that the Japanese method of upbringing children is flawed in general. :eyebrow:

Owaranai Destiny

2008-01-13, 22:56

Therefore, taken in Kotomi's context, her acting spoiled is actually quite normal. She can learn (and probably she already has learned) to be courteous towards outsiders (like Shota Tomoya, for example), but her acting wagamama towards her own parents was basically par for the course in any Japanese family. There's no 'bad parenting' in it...unless one wants to say that the Japanese method of upbringing children is flawed in general. :eyebrow:

Nice. :D That clears up a lot of shady areas.

With that cleared, at least we know not to compare our own standards with that of the Japanese all the time and make judgements based on our own situations. Better keep the 'bad' stuff at home than to let the outsiders see.

Aznbanana

2008-01-14, 02:24

Damn, this eps made me love Kotomi even more. I'm almost afraid she'll take over Tomoyo for a little while untill Tomoyo starts her arc. I dont know whether or not to feel sad or happy. :heh:

Faust87

2008-01-14, 06:24

Now that i saw kotomi-chan's past I like her even more... and the next will be her last episode, so sad :sad:

Kinny Riddle

2008-01-14, 07:44

My family is trained that way. I would have have gotten socked for that outburst by my father. My mother would have cried.

Kotomi wasn't complaining when she got her way. It's when adversity struck that she cracked.

So? The thing is, you're not Kotomi, you never lost your folks on your birthday, stop cherry picking and claim the moral high ground over her.

It's like someone just lost a relative who just committed suicide and the last thing they want to hear is some religious fundamentalist crackpot telling them the relative deserves to go to hell for harming their own life. (Of course, I'm confident that you're no fundamentalist crackpot. :cool: )

Anyway Orion, it's not like Kotomi's and her parents are breaking the central dogma and the seven golden laws under which all the offspring of men must be educated under. It is difficult to say which is better than another since each one carries its set of advantages or disadvantages, but trying to set your own experiences and local laws as the absolute truth of the universe won't get you much sympathy while trying to prove your point

ProtoMan couldn't have said it better.

Totally forgot to mention destruction of school property. She was tearing pages out of the library textbooks. They had enough on her to chuck her out probably. That poor guardian must be paying off a lot of people on her behalf. :heh:

Poor guardian? He was asking for it, when first thing he's supposed to do is console Kotomi on her lost. Instead, he dresses up as a sinister figure and asks Kotomi to let him see her dad's important document.

If that poor ex-coworker is her guardian, he is probably looking after her from afar.

It's not if, he is her legal guardian.

Ascaloth is absolutely spot on, and this probably applies to most East Asian families. On the outside, I'm a docile gentleman, in front of me folks and brothers, I'm the selfish High King and Benevolent Dictator for Life of the House, though that title is frequently contested amongst me and my brothers. :cool:

Sinestra

2008-01-14, 11:11

Now that i saw kotomi-chan's past I like her even more... and the next will be her last episode, so sad :sad:

I think they did a great job coveying sympathy for Kotomi. Which is one of reasons why i love this arc so much. After learning about her tragic past it really opens your eyes to why she is the way she is. What person could honestly understand what she is going through. But also true friends pull together when one of their own is down or having trouble and the gang sure is giving it their all. But Tomoya is the key to helping her move forward.

The fact that he was her was her first friend gives him something to work with. I think its sweet that Kotomi said she really liked that little boy because he was her first friend and after all these years she never forgot him and they even managed to become friends again even with Tomoya not remembering at first. The whole thing is just touching and actually made me get a little teary eyed.

Willcrusher

2008-01-14, 18:11

To all those who believe Nagisa "stole the thunder" of Kotomi, her past and the emotions associated with it, I would have to disagree. The series is not about romance or "main male lead searching for destined girl X." Don't forget "Clannad" means "family" or "clan" in Irish, and this is what the entire series is all about.

Kotomi's parents perished, which leaves her with no family. Nagisa, Ryou and Kyou's presence and time in this episode is essential because they are Kotomi's new family now (along with the other friends she made in school). And about the "study abroad" thing, the writers could wrap up Kotomi's arc the same they did with Fuko's, by having Kotomi "saved" by the others and accepting her life as it is now etc etc, but then going off to the US for the study abroad. This way, it ends her arc, removes her from the next girls' arcs, and gives her (and Fuko) the chance to come back at the very end, either in the main plot or in the epilogue credits.

And Nagisa was vital in that episode for another reason (paraphrasing): "You are the only one who can save Kotomi and keep her here." It's true. No one else can, except the boy whom Kotomi liked since she was a child.

Ultima_Rasengan05

2008-01-15, 05:26

Finally watched this episode and the beginning of this episode was pretty sad, though it gave us a lot of info on how Kotomi became to be in the present time of Clannad.

- Kind of like Yuuichi in Kanon, Tomoya has a childhood friend back in his child days, but coudn't remember when he first met Kotomi earlier in the season.
- Kotomi's parents were killed in an airplane crash during their flight to America...no wonder Kotomi was in a state of shock when she saw the bus crash in the middle of the street. I felt pretty sad for Kotomi when she was all alone in that house after the accident...all alone and looking for her parents. Though it was kind of her fault that she said she hated her parents before they left for their flight. Its like karma...and it was her last words that she ever said to her parents before they left and wasn't seen ever again.
- Though I'm wondering, what important thesis did Kotomi's parents had figured out??
- And Kotomi just labeled the mysterious old man as the "bad guy" because he came to the house to bring bad news about her parents...though he's really her guardian, since she has no parents.
- Tomoya fixing up the garden to make it in time for Kotomi's birthday as a cheer up present to remind her that she's not alone and that she has friends that care for her. Though I found that the "fixing up" of the garden kind of dragged out...so I found this episode to be pretty good, but not as great as the previous episodes so far.

Even though I voted early for this episode as a 9/10, I voted too early....:heh: oh wells...
9/10.

puzk

2008-01-15, 06:45

IRJustman

2008-01-15, 10:50

- Though I'm wondering, what important thesis did Kotomi's parents had figured out??

An idea for what it could be about is near the tail of ep 12.

--Ian.

Kaioshin Sama

2008-01-15, 12:51

http://i13.tinypic.com/6laws2u.jpg

Not exactly similar pictures, but I thought Nagisa at that scene reminded me of Ayu and Makoto.
http://i5.tinypic.com/867dquq.jpg
http://i2.tinypic.com/80xqpv7.jpg

Gotta love KyoAni:p

I think I pointed out once that they draw male leads very similarly. Try comparing both to Kyon and Sousuke Sagara (not first season) and you'll see some similarities again.

orion

2008-01-15, 14:00

I think I pointed out once that they draw male leads very similarly. Try comparing both to Kyon and Sousuke Sagara (not first season) and you'll see some similarities again.

Also, comparing Nagisa and Ayu will reveal some similarities too in the way they were drawn imo.

Also, I'm here to discuss the show. If my viewpoints are not in agreement with others, it's to be expected since I have different experiences and background. Just because I'm a Key and KyoAni fan does not mean I'm going to be sympathetic to any or all Clannad character(s).

Anacone

2008-01-15, 17:41

Kotomi spoiled eh ??? She never really wanted that present, bear, she may even never asked something. To me it seem like they had to "force" her a bit to ask something for birthday present, because she even had to learn it from books that it's normal to want something and to be spoiled bit. I either have never really asked presents and I wish I have let my father to spoil me more when I was kid... And when she gets first "real" friend to come to birthday party ("Friend"who never came :() and her main wish was having them all in that day. She was angry to that they had to leave as any normal kid.

I don't think they did wrong but it's not shown if they never considered to take Kotomi and maid with them and have party in business trip and another after it. That may have solved part of problem (if just they all haven't got to accident though).
Truth is that to get help from strange people is really big step, even for older people, so you can't really except child to do it...hmm... but maybe by burning envelope her mind was trying to cry out for help... It wasn't heard though.