Character discussion - Horo [Archive]

Skyfall

2008-01-23, 08:59

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Horo related.If you have any thoughts regarding the spunky wolf goddess and wish to let others know, feel free to voice them here.
To keep the discussion enjoyable for all Spice and Wolf fans, please follow the guidelines below and stay on-topic!
http://b.imagehost.org/0013/horo1.jpg
Note: Please don't use this for the specific episode / chapter / game talk, there are other threads (http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=77) for that stuff.
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The Chaos

2008-01-23, 14:25

Cute Character....I Like Her Because I love Wolf In Animes .. :)

Spectacular_Insanity

2008-01-23, 14:52

*second post* :p

Yeah, Horo is funny because she can act immature at times then suddenly know stuff that surprises us. Like business....

Khaos

2008-01-23, 15:04

I really love her free and confident nature.
She is what she is, does what she does and isn't ashamed of anything.
She is older and more adult than anyone else, on the same time she kept hold of a child's nature and she also has her weaknesses. She is a complete being and it's so rare and refreshing to see a character like that in an anime.

I think she feels a great loneliness inside, she was bound to that village for a long time far away from her home. And as a god you normally don't have any human friends, so perhaps, this is a new or at least a very rare experience for her.

FlareKnight

2008-01-23, 15:21

She really is a great character all around. No doubt she spent quite a long time in that village isolated from being able to interact with people. Since after a time they were just afraid of her and so its hard to have a conversation with a fleeing person.

Maybe not surprising how much she is enjoying herself at times. Being able to talk with someone who knows about you but isn't heading for the hills would have to be nice.

A complete person is a good way to go about describing her. She can be confident, but isn't without weakness and loneliness. Can be pretty eager and childlike, but also serious and regretful. I guess after living such a long time you are able to develop a pretty interesting personality.

Bonta Kun

2008-01-23, 15:32

She really is a great character all around. No doubt she spent quite a long time in that village isolated from being able to interact with people. Since after a time they were just afraid of her and so its hard to have a conversation with a fleeing person.

Can anyone actually confirm her real age? Seen some say couple hunderd then some say more like in the thousands.

I guess after living such a long time you are able to develop a pretty interesting personality.

hehe well its either the personality that everyones gonna love or the one that everyone dare not go against i.e places you on the menu:p

Masanori Ota

2008-01-23, 16:04

Can anyone actually confirm her real age? Seen some say couple hunderd then some say more like in the thousands.
The answer is in the Q&A thread. I'll go get the link.

EDIT: Here ya go.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1357984&postcount=7

Vexx

2008-01-23, 16:37

You realize its getting tough to take my eyes off your avatar and .sig and actually read the post, eh?

no common sense

2008-01-23, 19:08

She is simply too clever for her own good, and her moe level is over 9000!!!

GuidoHunter_Toki

2008-01-23, 19:10

There is just an overwhelming amount of Horo pics everywhere.

FlareKnight

2008-01-23, 19:45

There is just an overwhelming amount of Horo pics everywhere.Her reach and charm is unmatched :). No doubt there will be plenty more sightings of her as the series moves along.

But it is true that she has shown quite a bit of depth right from the start. Already has so much life experience to dwell and rely upon. Just exploring what has happened in her past will be great to follow.

Echoes

2008-01-23, 19:47

Deathkillz

2008-01-24, 14:48

"Horo the wise"

She certainly lives up to the name, but what makes her most interesting for me is that the fact that even though she has LOTs of life experience...she is still learning :)

Kinda like a life lesson for all of us, to never stop learning throughout our life time.

jigenbakuda

2008-01-24, 15:11

What I like about Horo so far is that she has shown so much depth in such a short amount of time. She must have spent a lot of time over the centuries developing her character.

At times she's mysterious, enigmatic and dark, while other times she's playful, flirting and downright cute. She gets embarrassed, she makes sarcastic remarks and she frivolously employs both her wit and her charm to get what she wants. Yet the character comes across as consistent, she's not all over the place.

So far, I like Horo a lot, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

You know what I'd really like to see. I would really love it if horo befriending lawrence was just a big ploy. She is always so far ahead of lawrence, as if she is just playing a trick on him or deceiving him (in the 3rd episode alone she showed she knew at least the same amount of info on the trading world, and what's better is she did so when he was explaining it to her). She said something to the affect of, if one is tricked and they realize it, then they should be happy to know that sort of trick exists. Also she said once you realize you've been tricked, its too late to be mad about it. So are her words foreboding? Is she giving lawrence a chance to see thru her? I would love it so much if horo turns out to just be using good ole lawrence.

But it would be strange that someone playing a trick on someone would feel remorse for something they said to the person they were playing a trick on. Unless she feigned the remorse to suck him in...

GuidoHunter_Toki

2008-01-24, 15:16

You know what I'd really like to see. I would really love it if horo befriending lawrence was just a big ploy. She is always so far ahead of lawrence, as if she is just playing a trick on him or deceiving him (in the 3rd episode alone she showed she knew at least the same amount of info on the trading world, and what's better is she did so when he was explaining it to her). She said something to the affect of, if one is tricked and they realize it, then they should be happy to know that sort of trick exists. Also she said once you realize you've been tricked, its too late to be mad about it. So are her words foreboding? Is she giving lawrence a chance to see thru her? I would love it so much if horo turns out to just be using good ole lawrence.

But it would be strange that someone playing a trick on someone would feel remorse for something they said to the person they were playing a trick on. Unless she feigned the remorse to suck him in...

I don't think she has a big plan for anything. I really do think she just wants to get to her home. She does "use" Lawrence in a sense to get what she wants at times. Like the apples. However she also helps him through that in the fact that he is able to get more coins for the fur.

Grimkill7

2008-01-24, 15:21

I agree. Their relationship is nothing short of mutualistic in my eyes.

Kaioshin Sama

2008-01-24, 16:00

jigenbakuda

2008-01-24, 16:06

Horo's character has more depth and sides to it then most characters I've seen in an anime at such an early stage. I expect by the end of it she'll be one of the most memorable characters I have ever seen.

Me too. I have not obsessed over a charter since anthy himamiya. lol, as you see I do not get involved in characters often. So 3 episodes in and horo has ensnared me. I think she might be number one after this season, hell after episode 5 the way things are going.

Vexx

2008-01-24, 16:22

All relationships are a mutually agreed "using" of each other for the overall benefit of both. For canines, deceit is a rarely used tool --- usually mostly to ensure the harmony of the pack.

And yes, Horo is in danger of toppling all of my long-standing 'characters of worship' to second tier in the land of japanese popular culture.
I'm scrabbling for another character who comes nearly so close to the complexity of a real person.... not finding it yet.

X207

2008-01-24, 17:05

Horo's character has more depth and sides to it then most characters I've seen in an anime at such an early stage. I expect by the end of it she'll be one of the most memorable characters I have ever seen.

same here. all the anime that ive seen b4 didnt hav a lead character progress this much. usually they act the same wayin the first few eps, horo on the other hand didnt.

Green²

2008-01-25, 01:33

Second thought is, Calvados.

You know, just to see what happens.

Kaioshin Sama

2008-01-25, 03:15

Vexx

2008-01-25, 03:28

I'd have probably swapped to a Horo avatar... but I took so much flak the last time I veered away from sweet gothy Tomoko I decided to just go with a .sig this time.

I wonder how many episodes we'll be getting to see new aspects of Horo's personality -- so far its 3 for 3.

Seditary

2008-01-25, 03:31

I'm sure she'll reveal more and more as she gets closer to Lawrence :)

Personally I want to see her tease Lawrence more :p

X207

2008-01-25, 13:35

its cray how popular horo is, imo shes getting good hits on tomoyo after just 3 eps. i had to debate for a bit b4 getting my current avy.

CrowKenobi

2008-02-04, 01:09

Vexx

2008-02-04, 03:09

Glad to see we've cleared this all up :) :) :) :) (what a riot.... :) )

Bloodseeker

2008-02-07, 08:36

The amount of people that have Horo in their Avatar and Sig right now is truly something to behold. I don't think even at the peak of her popularity that Haruhi even had this much of a pull. Of the major members it seems like more have a Horo image somewhere in their profile then don't.

You can probably attribute that to lack of other shows that are both really good and make for great avatar material. Spring 2006 was a great season for anime.

Then again, I'm kind of surprised at the lack of Bamboo Blade avatars... Kirino's expressions are great, and Sayako, Tamaki, Miya Miya, Reimi, and Ando have expressions and gestures that would make for good avatars too. (Horo, Kirino, and Sayako are competing for my favorite character out of the shows that I'm currently following)

Khaos

2008-02-07, 09:34

I wonder if Horo could become the prototype of a new type of female characters which are free and absolutely even to their male counterparts without being perfect or unreal (set aside the fact that she is a god, because she behaves very humanly). This is something anime is normally missing, still recently I have seen a tendency towards such characters. However Horo is the first real culmination of those character traits I have seen so far.

Vexx

2008-02-07, 17:10

I think its still an anomaly ... as long as many anime are drawn from average ero-games or average manga, its still going to be hit or miss. The recent move towards drawing material from light novels (which by the nature of the medium tend to have more complex character development and design) is a very good move though. As the anime target audience ages.... unless they're completely dysfunctional, they'll want more complex character drama as they age.

arkxkra

2008-02-07, 22:37

Horo was really cute and moe, she is so many personality and sometime very naughty.

Tri-ring

2008-02-08, 06:53

Zanshun

2008-02-08, 18:32

Its all about the wolf ears, the ear play when shes happy or sad is too moe.

Eviltape

2008-02-09, 09:27

I have a feeling that we'll be seeing some Horo + Firefox images. I hope that feeling comes true, if it hasn't already. I want a wallpaper of that. :D

DeotoxSlayer

2008-02-09, 10:00

I have a feeling that we'll be seeing some Horo + Firefox images. I hope that feeling comes true, if it hasn't already. I want a wallpaper of that. :D

There's already quite a few of those in the images threads.

Darklightz

2008-02-12, 14:24

I think it's her atypical personnality. Recently we've seen a few girls that are unlike the typical anime girls. Rather than being the classic shy, hesitant and too nice girls, Horo is daring, cunning and teasing. Haruhi also had a similar charm.

And I will agree it's very odd how quickly Horo became so popular.

Khaos

2008-02-12, 14:29

Haruhi also had a similar charm.

Yeah, but Haruhi has a sadistic tendency I can not stand.
I think Horo is better balanced with showing both her strong and her weak side.

TinyRedLeaf

2008-02-13, 02:11

Haruhi is so misunderstood. :rolleyes:

Horo is, on other hand, a flirt, albeit a very classy flirt. Many guys like that. Hence her popularity.

feRfe

2008-02-14, 01:17

classic tsundere w/ wolf effect is quite lovely

Vexx

2008-02-14, 12:50

I'd dispute that Horo is a simple tsundere. That ignores too many other of her personality attributes. I can call my wife tsundere ... but its really a terribly oversimplifying description.

jigenbakuda

2008-02-17, 10:07

She is the charm of every man I guess.
She is dominating and yet, obedient.
She is wise and yet naive.
Playful and yet cunning.
She is bravado but not shy in showing her tears.
And most of all I guess most of you will not understand but the usage of Oiran kotoba gives her the ultimate feminine touch.

Yes this is very true. I guess one of the reasons I am so obsessed with horo-sama is because she is they type of woman I would like to run off with and have an affair with, even if only a summer. Such an interesting person to watch. But its always nice to know under all her big talk is a soft woman. I think that is beyond cute. As powerful of a woman she is she still needs a man in her life... but I'm sure if I understood oiran kotoba I would be so much more in love with her character. Also like someone esle said, horo-sama is a classy flirt, what else do you need, I just want to meet a woman like horo-sama, lol.

RavenHawk

2008-02-18, 11:29

Horo is probably the roundest character I've ever met in any anime I've seen. I mean she doesn't have just one static personality, she's got a lot of them. Add the ears and tail, and you've got a moe factor with superior charm. I don't see that kind of character much in anime nowadays, but Horo just revived it. In short, she's the perfect anime woman, well at least for me. I think she's my new number 1 female; strangely another wolf is in my number one, but in the male category: Kiba. Man I'm so jealous at Lawrence....

esfir

2008-02-19, 01:53

i am certainly in the extreme minority, but there is something about horo's character that falls flat for me--there some important element that is missing. despite her great age, i feel she seems somehow too naive, too artificial (although it may be that baby-voice that is altering my impression). i feel there is a lot of wisdom, pain and cynicism that should come with a character of her age and type; however, it is only coming across to me but superficially.

so far, she is--to me--a cute girl whom is clever and quick-witted, but not much more than that.

Frozen_Angel

2008-02-20, 17:06

For those wondering about the spelling of Horo's name in English the last issue of Newtype USA had a translated version of this pic:

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4084/4207ookamitokoushinryouar7.th.jpg (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4207ookamitokoushinryouar7.jpg)

and the spelling they used was "Horo." :D

and they called the show "The Wolf and The Spice." :confused:

:cool:

So from what I understand Horo is her name in Japan, Holo in English, is this correct? also might anyone care to elaborate why the name is differnt in english assuming my first question is correct

serenade_beta

2008-02-20, 17:15

So from what I understand Horo is her name in Japan, Holo in English, is this correct? also might anyone care to elaborate why the name is differnt in english assuming my first question is correct

It's really just a matter of choice. In Japanese, "l" and "r" can be switched around.

Vexx

2008-02-20, 17:40

Actually, neither is entirely correct. In Japan, her name is "ほろ” which in Standard Romaji would be rendered "Horo". Those japanese syllables that correspond to standard "r_" syllables have a sound that doesn't exactly exist in English. It uses a combination of "l", "r" and "d" mouth positions. I might write it in Katakana ... except that "Horo" is an Ainu word for "Wolf" and therefore not an import name.

Saying "Holo" wouldn't be too far off but less close than saying "Horo" while rolling the "r" a bit (and throwing a bit of "d" into it).

WRITING her name as "Holo" would be incorrect by Standard Romaji methods (there are no symbols for "L*"), but it certainly doesn't stop some people from doing so (including a certain Japanese graphic artist who didn't do so well in school methinks).

Conclusion is that you could certainly write "Holo" but you'd only confuse many people and make Japanese instructors glare at you.
How you *say* "ほろ” depends on how well you handle the last sound :)

Here's a specific counter-example or two: One of our posters uses the nickname "Risaa" "Ri-sa-a" (ﾘｻｱ) which is a Japanese interpretation of the English name "Lisa". My name, "Vexx" is a real trauma to try and Nihongo-fy as 3 of the four letters have no direct correspondence to the Japanese syllable list. (Be-ke-tsu???? ick!)

Frozen_Angel

2008-02-20, 18:03

Lmao confusing

Pvt Public

2008-02-25, 03:45

WRITING her name as "Holo" would be incorrect by Standard Romaji methods (there are no symbols for "L*"), but it certainly doesn't stop some people from doing so (including a certain Japanese graphic artist who didn't do so well in school methinks).

http://www.mxtv.co.jp/ookami/chara.html
:rolleyes:
'Holo' is all over the Wikipedia entry as well. I'll try editing it, but I don't like my chances...

Vexx

2008-02-25, 04:24

Good luck, Masanori Ota has been trying to correct the Wiki for weeks but there's apparently a determined misinformed person or two who insists on contradicting what is written and what is the standard romaji/kana table charts in the back of every book on japanese language. Even the site you referenced spells it properly, if you go to the Staff and Cast page, Horo's name is spelled ホロ which every single dictionary and book I have (I have dozens) translates as "HO-RO". period... that's it. there is no "LO" in any kana/romaji chart (or even an "L*" row).

Now the *pronunciation* of Horo in Japanese requires one to say "ro" the way Japanese say it (a kind of combined r/l/d sound)... but standard romaji is written "ro". I've even shown it to my native-Japanese instructor and she dubs it kind of clueless to write it "lo".

Frankly, I'm about to stop being pleasant about it and ask where these "lo" people get their clues. Just because a Japanese graphic artist had a less than lucid moment.... the source is the author of the novels who writes it ホロ and the Romaji is straightforward on the subject. Couple that with the word "Horo" being an ancient japanese (ainu) word for "wolf" and there's not much left to say. Someone who bothers to correct the Wiki should mention that as well. "Holo" isn't even a European name that I can find anywhere so that's a poor defense justifying it in the same manner as Chloe and Lawrence's name.

Pvt Public

2008-02-25, 04:36

If you could locate respectable sources for all that, you might be able to lodge complaints against the users.
I'm currently in a revert-war with one guy, won't be quitting till they lock the article from anonymous editors.

Masanori Ota

2008-02-25, 08:51

I wanna do it too. Then I'll use my registered account to fuck around with them. I'm fucking sick of the average Wikipedia user. Bunch of stuck-up assholes who think they can play God without knowing half of what any self-respecting God knows. And then they develop a twisted sense of ownership because they work on some part of a freakin' database. Serious crazy people on Wikis.

Vexx

2008-02-26, 01:00

RavenHawk

2008-03-03, 02:44

Heh... have some more sake, Masanori Ota :) ..... its a good reason why Wiki sourcing should be taken with a heavy sprinkling of salt.

"It says ..... in the Wiki" is a very weak form of validation for citing and this is one example of why.

Aye. Anyone can change it, even non registered users. I'm better of with "Horo" than "Holo"; the latter makes me think of shiny cards.

Vexx

2008-03-03, 03:16

The only reference to "Holo" I've found *anywhere* as a name is a Taiwanese ethnic group's language called Holo. No european references at all. So here we have a common Ainu word for wolf -- "Horo" that uses standard japanese syllables. Unless contrary *evidence* can be found outside of that one artist's goof up, I'd say case closed.

Arcananine77

2008-04-01, 06:23

ESC

2008-04-03, 20:33

Tri-ring

2008-04-03, 23:48

Agreed. Summary: She is sex. Not just sexy but sex.

You're absolutely right, I mean imagine your female partner showing each and every aspect in bed.:D:D:D

Vexx

2008-04-04, 01:19

Yeah, that description is quite poetic, a poem to the goddess :)

Gundampilotspaz

2008-04-15, 00:54

It is odd that she seems to be manipulative and yet at the same time she is helping him at the same time. Not just at the end of the series but even when they first met. It makes her an interesting character to watch because she seems to need someone with her, but at the same time she seems to be taking advantage of Lawrence.

She might be considered the ultimate woman, in that respect. *waits to be flamed*

Blank-Mage

2008-04-15, 04:02

I think that while Horo is certainly messing with Lawrences' head a fair amount of the time, it's not due to maliciousness, but because it's her only real form of entertainment. That and food. But it's been shown that Lawrence needed a companion (boy, does that word make me think of Dr. Who), so they both get something. I'm interested in what Horo did before now, some of which was hinted at in episode 4. She mentions the first human that was ever really kind to her, and shortly after mentions Yue, Intin, Paro, and Myuli, and how she felt they were certain to meet again. And that's the last we hear of the subject?! Seriously? Yeah, a look into Horo's lengthy past would be awesome. Sigh.

judgment26

2008-04-15, 11:13

I think that while Horo is certainly messing with Lawrences' head a fair amount of the time, it's not due to maliciousness, but because it's her only real form of entertainment. That and food. But it's been shown that Lawrence needed a companion (boy, does that word make me think of Dr. Who), so they both get something. I'm interested in what Horo did before now, some of which was hinted at in episode 4.

Agreed, Horo gets a huge kick out of exerting her dominance over Lawrence (and seeing the "cute" expression on Lawrence's face that always results from it), but adores him all the same.:heh:

If I'm not mistaken, a major portion of volume 7 of the light novel is dedicated to exploring Horo's past.

Blank-Mage

2008-04-15, 22:40

Yay! (->this segment inserted to fulfill the 10 character requirement.)

judgment26

2008-04-16, 07:53

Eh...I almost thought what I said would come to mean bad news for you 0.0...after all, unless someone volunteers to do so, there are currently no translators working on volume 7 that I know of, and there probably won't be for quite a long time to come (until volumes 1-6 are finished, that is)...:upset:

Of course, if you can read Japanese or Chinese, then that's a whole n'other story.:p

FlareKnight

2008-04-16, 10:35

Blank-Mage

2008-04-16, 15:01

Well, it's not like I could skip ahead 4 books, eh? Just knowing that it's addressed is enough.

iXenomorph

2008-05-01, 19:23

I love her ears, lol. They're really expressive. When she's sad, they droop...awwww!!!! *dies*

typhonsentra

2008-08-17, 15:51

Both of their characters are well-suited for eachother, it makes the relationship believable. They both understand the other's sense of humor and will play along.

I also like how she almost breaks the fourth wall from time to time, referencing what the audience's expectations are in romantic scenes, giving Lawrence a "Second chance".

salv87

2008-08-17, 16:02

BTW, somehow Horo loos more like a fox than a wold.. must be because of her great fluffy tail ^_^
she seems similar to Youko from Inukami if we compare tails, but Horo has more of character ^_^

Darknemo2000

2008-08-17, 17:21

True. She looks more of a fox than a wolf. Too bad that Youko from Inukami does not a character to remember. Comparing her to Horo is the same as comparing a puddle to Atlantic Ocean. But they are similar in looks.

salv87

2008-08-17, 18:13

well maybe not a puddle.. a lake ^_^ Youko does reming me of Louise from ZnT with her tsundere part ^_^ But still I pointed out what I had in mind.. Horo being more similar to a fox.. ^_^ Further more she's sly and cunning.. so thatmakes even more fox-like in my eyes ^_^

typhonsentra

2008-08-22, 14:59

Why doesn't Horo choose to pursue a relationship with another immortal? Do they ever discuss this in the later books?

salv87

2008-08-22, 17:54

the problem is that as I understand,for Now they haven't found another immmortal, well at least a MALE one..
Maybe even if they found any.. theywould be too arrogant, too young or smth like that, which makes Horo not wanting to comunicate with them..
Remember the big wolf in the woods not far from the city..
Although he was similar to Horo in her wolf-form, she just called him and arrogant young pup,orsmth like that..

Or maybe, knowing her character (actually not knowing would be more like it..), she is just more interested in how things turn out.. since eternal life can prove to be boring even when there's 2 living together.. and since humans dont have such a life span, their life in the eyes of long'livers would befull of activities.. which makes them more interesting..

That would be my answer

judgment26

2008-08-22, 21:44

Why doesn't Horo choose to pursue a relationship with another immortal? Do they ever discuss this in the later books?

Actually, the issue is in fact addressed at some later point.;)

And I have to agree that Horo appears more like a fox than a wolf. After all, orange foxes are common, but I've never seen an orange wolf before....

salv87

2008-08-23, 04:25

Actually, the issue is in fact addressed at some later point.;)

And I have to agree that Horo appears more like a fox than a wolf. After all, orange foxes are common, but I've never seen an orange wolf before....

Judge, you're creating unnecessary suspense ^_^

orange wolfs.. maybesome kind of desert wolves.. ^_^ But I think they meant her to be a brown or light brown which would be maybe a bit more common..
wolf 1 (http://govdocs.evergreen.edu/photogallery/usa/montana/wolf.jpg)
the so called Redwolf 1 (http://www.freewebs.com/icewarriors123/rwolf.jpg)
Red wolf 2, colour is somewhat similar I guess.. (http://images.google.ru/imgres?imgurl=http://www.whozoo.org/Anlife2002/angelati/RedWolfVG032003_5845C.JPG&imgrefurl=http://whozoo.org/Anlife2002/angelati/AML_redwolf2.htm&h=527&w=640&sz=83&hl=ru&start=15&um=1&usg=__Cxk-G9YjbTtyA1nKQPr5utSDPCA=&tbnid=LVQ4lA6H8nLoNM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrown%2Bwolf%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dru%26lr% 3D%26newwindow%3D1%26sa%3DN)
These wolves are most commonly found on the North American continent

But the beatiful fluffy tail.. mm.. just like a fox ^_^

typhonsentra

2008-08-23, 06:02

Actually, the issue is in fact addressed at some later point.;)

I suspected as much. You do realize that you made the wait for the next volume/volumes even harder right? :upset:

salv87

2008-08-23, 06:47

At least you shouldhave made spoiler tags with a warning ^_^

judgment26

2008-08-23, 08:01

Well, I considered doing so, but I didn't think it was THAT much of a spoiler....@.@

salv87

2008-08-23, 08:09

well..it's not THAT much of aspoiler.. it more like a that much of an appetizer..
I think that a few more of those and you can count on us trying to make you start your transalations of v4 ^_^

Kagami~n

2008-08-23, 19:32

I loved Horo. A character like her I have never quite seen before. It was her who compelled me to watch the next episode more than anything else, not to say that everything else was bad though. :) You've all said most of the reasons why she is love. So elegant, so complex, strong but still (ironically) human.

She struck me more as a wolf than a fox, probably because most Japanese fox girls have yellow fur, black-tipped ears, and occasionally slim eyes. There are too many fox girls anyway.

Her true wolf form was definitely a wolf.

I don't entirely see where the tsundere label for Horo came from. I admit I'm a little intolerant as to what defines a tsundere because of how carelessly the label seems to be passed out lately. She seems too level-headed and a little too confident with (most of) her own feelings to be what I consider a tsundere. I also didn't find her very moe...she actually seemed more like an original character first, and an archetype second. Totally nothing wrong with that.

Blank-Mage

2008-08-23, 22:10

For the record, what is a tsundere again?

GuidoHunter_Toki

2008-08-24, 01:53

For the record, what is a tsundere again?

A Tsundere character is cold and blunt. Basically she is cold to the main character at first, but she becomes lovestruck later.

salv87

2008-08-24, 03:26

Kagami~n

2008-08-24, 18:04

B-M here's the answer tsundere.. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundere)

Kagami~n, who said that Horo was tsundere?? If you're referring to mypost earlier, then that word was used for Youko from the Inukami anime.. I't just Horo was similar in her looks (well the big fluffy tail actually), but not the character..
I wouldn't be able to call Horo tsundere.. I think it would be a crime to lower such a complex character to one word..

Someone earlier in this thread (not you) said it, and a blog that I can't remember the name of called Horo the coolest tsundere they'd seen, along with a screencap of her pouting with the caption "tsuntsun!"

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you completely on the matter. I just want to know where people get the idea that she's a "moe tsundere" in the first place. In her case, I just find it degrading.

salv87

2008-08-24, 18:12

Seeing as there are terms not everybody is familiar with (for example B-M and the word tsundere), some people tend to use it without understanding it (that's a big plus for B-M, showing that he's not like that ^_^ ).. I guess that maybe it was smth like a fashion to call all the characters tsundere..
I don't actually understand calling cahracters moe.. since the original meaning for moe was such.. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang)) So naming a character - moe, is out of my reach ^_^

Vexx

2008-08-24, 22:26

aye... most of these labels are just gross mischaracterizations or massive oversimplifications.

Darknemo2000

2008-08-27, 13:35

Actually tsundere became such an wide term taht it barrely tells anything...There are cold Tsunderes , there are hotblooded ones there, are the always tsuntsun tsunderes and almost always derdere ones...

Basically I could put Horo under the term tsundere, but she is very far from stereotypical original tsundere image.

Lightly_Toasted

2008-09-18, 21:39

Her smile is just to irresistible...
http://s8.directupload.net/images/080916/x3wloc4m.jpg
Taken from avy request thread

Georget

2009-02-02, 16:12

Do u think Horo is virgin?

-shes like 1000 years old
-wolves in pack likes to f***(have sex) with each other
-slutty personality
-likes to tease/play wtih men
-likes to walk around naked

What do u think?

Theres no clue in anime, so i thought if someone who read the novels could tell if theres any mention about it?

Vexx

2009-02-02, 19:36

What do u think?
Do u think Horo is virgin?
-shes like 1000 years old
-wolves in pack likes to f***(have sex) with each other
-slutty personality
-likes to tease/play wtih men
-likes to walk around nakedTheres no clue in anime, so i thought if someone who read the novels could tell if theres any mention about it?

I'm getting really really tired of this particular question in various threads. The fast correct answer is "WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE CARE?"

1) she's not 1000, she's younger - only 750 or so. The listmaker didn't do their research. :)
2) whoever wrote this list has no damned idea how wolves in packs relate to each other -- it is an incorrect premise so it fails.:eyebrow:
3) whoever wrote this list has no social life to call Horo's personality "slutty" -- since when is being entertaining, witty, and attractive .. slutty? The listmaker must not know any women.:twitch:
4) she's adept at flirting and verbal jousting in a feminine way... so? again, whoever made the list appears to be clueless about females... or adults maybe.:mad:
5) She's a goddess --- many goddesses don't bother with clothes (see mythology). Again, whoever came up with this list fails at life or is a prude.:eyebrow:

The novels say nothing about her prior romantic life. There was a young man hundreds of years before who enticed her to stay near the village and be the goddess of the harvest. She obviously cared for him --- but nothing is said about whether they shared any physical relationship or not. She belonged to a demi-god wolfpack before that - no information provided there either. This sort of question literally is irrelevant --- what, is someone going kick a 750 yr old wolf goddess out of their bed because it isn't her first time? If its going to change someone's opinion of her - then they have their own baggage to sort through: Stupidity, misogyny, and arrogance all in one box :)

0utf0xZer0

2009-02-02, 23:23

"WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE CARE?"

Because 2D character virginity, like moe, is SERIOUS FUCKING BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do have to admit that Horo's age made me think Lawrence may not be her first love, but I find the rest of the argument pretty weak. Horo is a flirt, not a slut. And the nudity? It usually made sense in context, even if she didn't seem to be very modest about it.

Either way, I applaud the author's decision not to pull some "her clothes transform with her" routine. That ruins everybody's fun, and it's why I intend to follow his lead if I ever put characters capable of such shapeshifting in my stories.:heh:

Vexx

2009-02-02, 23:42

You'll have to forgive me... I suppose the proper response to a question like that is, "Why? Are you a virgin? Not relevant? Right you are." :)

Aye... the young mutant woman in X-men (Mystique) had that absurd "clothes part of me" thing going. Goddesses appear in the nude often in literature.... hey, they're goddesses. :)

Frankly, I'd be stunned if Horo were actually a virgin but, as I say, it is totally irrelevant - and I'm pretty sure Lawrence doesn't care.

0utf0xZer0

2009-02-03, 02:00

"Why? Are you a virgin? Not relevant? Right you are." :)

You know, I know what you probably meant, but "right you are" in this context is just plain funny. Although to really give it that meaning, you would have had to have thrown in a comma after the "right", which would be too obvious.

Aye... the young mutant woman in X-men (Mystique) had that absurd "clothes part of me" thing going. Goddesses appear in the nude often in literature.... hey, they're goddesses. :)

More important than literary precedent, the nudity just worked so well in Spice and Wolf. Combined with the blue lighting it gave Horo's introduction a very otherwordly quality to it, at least for me.

Frankly, I'd be stunned if Horo were actually a virgin but, as I say, it is totally irrelevant - and I'm pretty sure Lawrence doesn't care.

I think the focus on her virginity is a bit much, but I'm actually quite interested in Horo's past, including her relationships. How did 700 years worth of experiences shape her?

(At least Horo's personality seems to flow logically from what we know from her past. Much as I loved Sola's Matsuri, part of me always felt she was acting the age she looked, not the age she was.)

Darknemo2000

2009-02-03, 11:48

Just on a side note - Wolves are not dogs..

Meaning if one has a mate then it is for life. Wolves are actually much more faithful than humans in that respect. So whoever wrote that list is definitely wrong about 'wolves in their packs like to have sex with each other' and is absolutely ignorant of what wolves are.

RayzorFang

2009-02-03, 23:08

Couldn't have said it better myself Darknemo2000, wolves are completely separate from dogs, they have their hierarchy and many social patterns that they follow. Basically in packs only the alpha male and alpha female mate so it wouldn't surprise me if Horo wasn't a virgin since we know what a supreme being she is.
I agree with Vexx i don't think that it's really important whether she is a virgin or not and Lawrence probably doesn't give it much thought, he is probably just treasuring every moment he can spend with her.
On the note about the nudity i think it would just feel normal for her to walk around like that since she doesn't wear clothes in her wolf form so why would she when she is in human form. Though i'm not sure we should refer to her as an actual goddess didn't she say she was just a big wolf? I'm sure i read that somewhere, although her knowledge of living things and affinity with wheat begs to differ.

Vexx

2009-02-03, 23:11

Horo's view is that she's Horo.. she is what she is ("a wise wolf"). It is other people who feel compelled to apply labels to her.:)

Blank-Mage

2009-02-04, 11:42

Has it occurred to anyone he might be trolling?

RampagingEvangelion

2009-02-04, 11:51

Has it occurred to anyone he might be trolling?

First thing I thought when I read that was, "Don't feed the troll"...

Vexx

2009-02-04, 14:28

Meh, its been completely picked apart and shredded by the cross-examination ... I do notice its been the one and only post in the entire forum so far from the account....

FlareKnight

2009-02-04, 23:30

Meh, its been completely picked apart and shredded by the cross-examination ... I do notice its been the one and only post in the entire forum so far from the account....I found it being shredded up entertaining enough. If it was a troll post at least the person got quickly taken down.

From my personal view it really doesn't matter. Regardless she's been isolated from interacting with others for quite some time now. So just a good thing for her to run into Lawrence and get to travel back north.

Vexx

2009-02-04, 23:46

I highly recommend people read the translation project volume 1 --- it lays out the nature of their initial relationship pretty clearly, Horo's complex feelings, Lawrence's internal monolog, etc.

He's thought through the angles, but there's one bullet item on his list :) where he thinks it'll be nice to sleep next to someone that cuddly looking (even if sex isn't involved). He is alone so much traveling that just the companionship is desirable.

They both enter this arrangement with eyes pretty wide open (though Lawrence is foggier on the ramifications into the future :) ). Wonderfully practical and "grown up"...

Monitkowa

2009-06-07, 15:11

Idea to create a wolf girl was great.
She is godness. I'd like to have her tail *____*
Her seiyuu is rly great. Much pretty voice.
Once of my fav female characters

Ichihara Asako

2009-06-14, 04:07

Funimation have left me in despair. They've opted for the L spelling; http://funimation.com/SpiceandWolf/ and here I was looking forward to buying the box, I think I'll cough up extra for the R2s instead (didn't end up getting the Blu-ray collector's edition due to incredibly poor exchange rate making it over $50 per episode).

wandering-dreamer

2009-06-14, 10:18

What do you mean by the L spelling? "Wolf" makes a lot more sense than "worf," I think one of the most important steps in translation is to make sure you translating an actual word...

salv87

2009-06-14, 11:11

I think what he means is that they made HoLo and not HoRo.

wandering-dreamer

2009-06-14, 17:24

Oh okay. Whoa, that is really strange, especially since Yen Press (which is doing the English release of the manga and novels) is sticking with Horo. And YP usually follow the official romantization, that's really odd on Funimations part. Actually, I can't ever remember seeing people call her Holo...

Vexx

2009-06-14, 20:50

Some idiot in Japan doing art work used "Holo" instead of "Horo" (I dunno, failed romaji in school, didn't get the memo on modern romaji)? So there's been this little slap-fight over it ever since (like the wikipedia war over the spelling -- many good arguments on both sides but I tend to support "Horo" as
I haven't seen a published book using　ー'lo' for ’ほろ’　（ホロ) in years (or any kana chart that translates the "r" row as "l"). Also, when the actors say "Chloe" (Kuroe) you can hear them shooting for an "L" sound.... whereas "Horo" dives directly for the "r". Obviously we could argue about that forever.

The best argument *for* "Holo" seems to be that it is written in katakana... but there really aren't any European names like that (as there is for Lawrence Kraft). The best argument *for* "Horo" seems to be the Ainu word-for-wolf connection (horokeu), but there's that katakana issue.
To me, the katakana issue is cleared up by looking at an Ainu dictionary --- Ainu words are written in katakana since they aren't "native Japanese" o.O --> http://books.google.com/books?id=Cd0hAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA155&sig=waAwuUTkPdsDtveHLLrI5fToegw&source=gbs_quotes_r&cad=2_0#PPA138,M1 (scan down a bit for 'horokeu' and observe what japanese characters are used)

Heh, I do note the wikipedia war seems to have tilted to a solution but we have two major conflicting points as apparently Yen Press may be going with "Horo". :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spice_and_Wolf

LKK

2009-06-15, 09:17

but we have two major conflicting points as apparently Yen Press may be going with "Horo". :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spice_and_Wolf
Romanizations in official US products have to be approved by the Japanese licensors. (So I've been told by at least one manga editor.) Sometimes the Japanese licensors don't care & accept what the US company suggests. Other times, the Japanese are insistent that a name be romanized a specific way. The US company must accept the Japanese spelling even if it doesn't match the way a US person might romanize the name. My guess as to why Funimation's and Yen Press's spellings of Horo don't match is because Funimation's licensor insisted the name be spelled with an L while Yen Press's licensor thought differently or accepted YP's recommendation. I repeat, this is only my guess though. I haven't heard any officially stated reason.

wandering-dreamer

2009-06-15, 15:04

I remember that seeing a post before on the YP site that they go with the official spelling (I think the debate was over Pandora Hearts actually) so I assumed that they were going with the official spelling of Horo as well. And also seeing where Horo appears to come from I really don't get why some people are going with Holo. Then again, Japan seems to have serious issues spelling foreign names, it seems like every fandom has some character with a clearly western name that is misspelled.
So I guess I'm just going to be peeved at the subtitles for Spice and Wolf, might even end up putting a post-it note on my box saying "IT'S HORO NOT HOLO!"

Vexx

2009-06-15, 15:31

<shrug> I probably would have conceded the debate because of the katakana counter-argument until I learned that all Ainu words are spelled using katakana. That kind of blows a hole in the "should be treated like Lawrence and Chloe" assertion. That coupled with japanese voice actor pronunciations and standard romaji charts just kind of nails it in favor of "Horo" for me. So it goes.... certainly an amazing amount of energy spent on it from both sides.

Masanori Ota

2009-06-15, 21:03

I don't even care about WHY it should be spelled a certain way. R is a superior letter to L.

ATiWolF

2009-06-15, 22:28

I'm Going To Be Terse And Just Say That I'm 100.5% Against 'Holo'...It just appears weird to my western eyes...its Unappealing. :D

<Subject Change>
I'm confused about something horo said when chatting up Lawrence...They were vividly discussing the consumption of gray matter...aka human brains ...HoRo said wolves did this in order to acquire ---- ...she stops there...:eyebrow:
What benefits could she possibly derive from eating human brains?!...surely not intelligence...she has mountains of that...Is this brought up again in any light novels? I'm up to #4(Baka-Tsuki's latest translation)

Any input...preferably as spoil-free as possible? Thanks.

Vexx

2009-06-15, 23:51

No spoilers needed.

Its a very very old bit of homeopathic magic ... you consume the vital organs of your enemy or prey to acquire their skills. The wolves view their situation with humans as a kind of arms race and the humans seem to be able to use their brains to win despite being dumb as rocks in other ways... soooooooo, at least at one point the wolves probably thought "eat the brains and we'll get smarter".

I've not seen that the story ever does more than imply that connection.

ATiWolF

2009-06-16, 00:02

....despite being dumb as rocks....

ahaha-okay.
Homopatic magic, huh?
Interesting. I think I understand now. Thanks VexX.

Riful

2009-06-16, 05:23

The main argument for Holo is not that it's written in Katakana, but that it is the only romaji spelling used in Japan so far and therefore really seems to be her official name.

The only official place where "Horo" has been ever used is indeed Yen Press' homepage. On the other side Holo has been used everywhere, from the japanese anime homepage (http://www.spicy-wolf.com/assets/images/about/character_holo.jpg), to Kadokawa's English page (http://www.kadokawapicturesusa.com/2008/04/spice_wolf.php), to the Japanese merchandise [ one (http://www.toyslogic.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=3896), two (http://www.animaxis.com/images/products/anime_manga153487_1.jpg), three (http://www.animaxis.com/images/products/anime_manga153418_1.jpg), four (http://blog-imgs-41.fc2.com/b/a/r/bargelato/photo_20090120205540.jpg), and many more] and finally now by Funimation. And I completely agree with LKK here, usually the licensor decides spellings or at least approves them, especially for the main characters.

<shrug> I probably would have conceded the debate because of the katakana counter-argument until I learned that all Ainu words are spelled using katakana.

so ... do we know that Holo's name is taken from an Ainu word? I don't think so. You can prove me wrong, but afaik it's only a theory some fan came up with. It's a nice one, but we have no idea how true it actually is, so it's not really an argument.

I haven't seen a published book using　ー'lo' for ’ほろ’　（ホロ) in years (or any kana chart that translates the "r" row as "l").

err, that completely depends on the word. Japanese words normally will use R, but not always with names (like Risa/Lisa, Rina/Lina, Satoru/Satol).
For non-japanese words though both are completely equal, because there is no choice, since japanese doesn't make a difference.

Unless we know what the author was going for, there are many possibilites, many more even than Holo and Horo.

Also, when the actors say "Chloe" (Kuroe) you can hear them shooting for an "L" sound.... whereas "Horo" dives directly for the "r".

I think you're imagining things, because that Japanese sound does have different possibilities of being pronounced depending on the person and some of them are closer to L than others.

But for the Japanese it's essentially the same sound and they never make a difference consciously. In fact, they cannot. Even if they try (for example when studying a foreign language), they have extreme difficulties, distinguishing and especially pronouncing L and R differently in a certain context and need at least some training. (Which is absolutely normal.)

FTGT

2009-06-16, 09:06

ATiWolF

2009-06-16, 09:26

Shall We Start A Petition Then?

Riful

2009-06-16, 09:48

yes, send a petition to Hasekura xD Not Holodeck, Holotan! ;)

Horo <---- That sounds like belonging to an growling Wolf. Grrrrrr.... Yes, thats it.

well, I guess ... but in japanese "hororo" as an animal voice seems to that of a monkey, so dunno about that oO;;

GuidoHunter_Toki

2009-06-16, 10:03

0_0....we are screwed!

Nevertheless, I am against the official choice!

Holo <---- Reminds me of "Holodeck". That name may belong to Start Trek but not to a wolf deity.

Well thats only if the Holo is pronounced as "hollow". Now I'm not keen on the pronounciation of the word so someone mind filling me in one whether the word is pronounced as "Hollow" or "Hoe-low".

Riful

2009-06-16, 10:12

Well thats only if the Holo is pronounced as "hollow". Now I'm not keen on the pronounciation of the word so someone mind filling me in one whether the word is pronounced as "Hollow" or "Hoe-low".

Horo or Holo are pronouced exactly the same in Japanese, so ... listen to the japanese dub. ^^ We have no idea where her name comes from, so we don't know how it's supposed to be pronounced in any foreign language.

Concerning the english pronunciation ... there are many possibilites and I'm not sure how you pronouce "Hoe-low" XD

But for example, you can stick with the Japanese L/R-sound if you want, and you can chose whether you use the japanese "o" or an english one, two times the same or different ones ^^;; At least, the japanese "o" doesn't sound like "low" and Holo uses 2 times the same "o". "Hollow" is usually spelt differently in Katakana, with a short and a long "o".

But ugh, in the end, you just have to decide for yourself, the one you prefer ... and we'll see how the official dub will handle it.

GuidoHunter_Toki

2009-06-16, 10:21

Horo or Holo are pronouced exactly the same in Japanese, so ... listen to the japanese dub. ^^ We have no idea where her name comes from, so we don't know how it's supposed to be pronounced in any foreign language.

Concerning the english pronunciation ... there are many possibilites and I'm not sure how you pronouce "Hoe-low" XD

Well "Hoe-Low" is pronounced exactly as I broke it up. The word "hoe" as in the gardening tool, and then "low" as in the english word pronounciation of the word "low".

Personally if it was pronounced as "Hoe-Low" I'd be perfectly okay with that, but "Hollow" (if said in the english pronounciation) I'd find strange.

Riful

2009-06-16, 11:38

Well "Hoe-Low" is pronounced exactly as I broke it up. The word "hoe" as in the gardening tool, and then "low" as in the english word pronounciation of the word "low".

Personally if it was pronounced as "Hoe-Low" I'd be perfectly okay with that, but "Hollow" (if said in the english pronounciation) I'd find strange.

ok I see. To me, "hoe" is definitely closer to the japanese pronunciation than the first part of "hollow". But both would be spelt the same in Katakana, so both are possible.

Vexx

2009-06-16, 11:52

What we know for a fact is that her name is identical to the ancient Ainu word for "wolf" (link already provided (http://books.google.com/books?id=Cd0hAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA155&sig=waAwuUTkPdsDtveHLLrI5fToegw&source=gbs_quotes_r&cad=2_0#PPA138,M1)) ... its one hell of a coincidence if there isn't an intentional connection. Ainu words *are* written in katakana and its spelled both in the light novels and in the Ainu dictionaries using the same characters: ホロ

An additional problem is that there's no European given name that approximates her name.

Basically, the counter-argument you're using seems to be "we don't know for sure unless the author explains how he developed her name" - which is something I have to concede and why it'll never be utterly certain until then. But authors don't just pull their names out of the air - they design them to connect to the character.

Side note, Japanese look at alphabetical letters with an eye to their 'elegance' or 'coolness' factor which sometimes drives their choices more strongly than standards or accuracy. I've been told by a couple of correspondents that "L" simply looks nicer than "R" to their eye.

Hey, if it turns out I'm wrong I'll fold ... its just that so far the weight of the evidence seems to point to "Horo" more than "Holo". Either way, I'll pronounce it exactly the same :)

Riful

2009-06-16, 12:14

What we know for a fact is that her name is identical to the ancient Ainu word for "wolf" ... its one hell of a coincidence if there isn't an intentional connection. Ainu words *are* written in katakana.

not identical at least. The word apparently can be horkew or horokew or horokeu oO; so it's missing at least a bit. As said, imho it is a nice theory, but nothing more. I clearly prefer this theory over the "they chose it only for esthetic reasons", which is perfectly possible as well.

Basically, the counter-argument you're using seems to be "we don't know for sure unless the author explains how he developed her name"

Not really, the argument is: We do know for certain the spelling they chose and are actually using pretty much everywhere, for whatever reason. That's the only thing I wanted to make clear.

But authors don't just pull their names out of the air - they design them to connect to the character.

That completely depends on the person, see Naruto or Dragonball for names pretty much pulled out of the air ^^;;

An additional problem is that there's no European name that approximates her name.

who knows. I don't know every european name, but even if ... she is a fictional character and a wolf deity at that, so I don't see a problem with her not having an existing name.

Maybe the author will one day tell us his reasons, would be interesting at least ^^;;

Ashlotte

2009-07-10, 12:56

She'll always be Horo to me...Whether its the official name or not...Even though its changing just one letter I can't imagine ever calling her anything else really...

Vexx

2009-07-10, 15:55

Just write "ホロ" from now on.... the pronunciation is identical with either "l" or "r" (if the speaker is doing it right).

judgment26

2009-07-11, 02:24

Japanese people have a hard time distinguishing between the two "liquid" consonants, so either way, it's gonna sound like "Horo.":p

Riful

2009-07-11, 02:41

Japanese people have a hard time distinguishing between the two "liquid" consonants, so either way, it's gonna sound like "Horo.":p

nah, that entirely depends on your ears, your native language and the other languages you know, i.e. your "phoneme repertoire". ^^

MeoTwister5

2009-07-11, 07:11

Cipher

2009-07-11, 07:47

I usually just pronounce it the way she says in the first episode, and the way Lawrence usually says it.

The problem is that when I go rebuild my shrine, I'm still debating whether to use an R or an L for the English sign.:eyespin::eyespin::eyespin:

Follow the author's spelling. Its pronounced as Horo and spelled as Holo.

My favorite Holo characteristics are:
1. Mature Feeling (when she changes the look in her eyes and her tone to match an etiquette manner)+combined with her fragile stature and relentless poise.
2. Her Accent+ Voice(Its quite comfortable to the ear)
3. Frank Attitude ( she's inconsistent yet true)
4. Inconsistencies (personality switches)
5. Her Age + Feel of Wisdom(that makes me think, what if she looked like a grandma, i wonder how their relationship would've progressed)
6. Relaxed and Very composed yet still threatened by danger.
7. last but not least, her yearning for company.
-she's strong yet weak...quite a trait I admire.

Kaguya

2009-07-11, 10:21

Although Horokeu Usui (Horo Horo) of SHAMAN KING with the same origin of a word uses "R" spelling, I do not know why S&W uses "L" spelling.
Probably, someone of Mediaworks editorial departments decided this, because the author had said that he was poor at English.
Although there is no Horo in "ENGLISH PRONOUNCING DICTIONARY OF PROPER NAMES" which I have, there is Holo.
Or it seems to be Roman alphabet spelling in case of "Horo." Probably, they hated becoming so.
Probably this affair will be based on such a trivial reason.

Riful

2009-07-11, 10:48

Although Horokeu Usui (Horo Horo) of SHAMAN KING with the same origin of a word uses "R" spelling, I do not know why S&W uses "L" spelling.

That's only a fan based theory. There's afaik no official statement concerning the origin of Holo's name. So while the theory makes sense, it might not have the same origin as Horohoro from Shaman King.

Although there is no Horo in "ENGLISH PRONOUNCING DICTIONARY OF PROPER NAMES" which I have, there is Holo.

really? care to share what they say about it?

Vexx

2009-07-11, 18:56

All I've ever been able to find is a German baby BOY name of Holo... and no resource has a meaning for it listed.

Cipher

2009-07-11, 21:34

Just name an An american/english baby girl Horo and voila! we have one now.

FTGT

2009-07-13, 13:29

All I've ever been able to find is a German baby BOY name of Holo... and no resource has a meaning for it listed.

O_O

well, either this baby boy has very cruel parents or its a lie. As far as I can say, there are no german babies called Holo (...not that I am an expert, but at least I am living there :P).

Vexx

2009-07-13, 17:13

That was from a search of various world "baby-names" listings, so YMMV. But it was the *only* listing at all. I also tried umlaut variants like Hölo.
I guess its just hard for some to admit that it just MIGHT be possible that someone in the graphics art department failed their romaji class or that it may simply have been that "l" looked cooler to the decider than "r". So it goes, like I said I'll probably just be writing ホロ from now on.

BashZeStampeedo

2009-08-22, 10:12

2. Her Accent+ Voice(Its quite comfortable to the ear)

I completely agree. The way Ami Koshimizu handles her is amazing. I still wonder what the word they are using in place of "baka" is (Update: It turns out it's tawake, たわけ, which apparently is only used much in Nagoya according to a quick search on Google).

Horo is really a beautifully pathetic character, so much so that it hurts. She seems so desperately lonely that she's willing to accept Lawrence as her companion, falls so completely for him, and yet keeps pushing him away for fear of being even lonelier in the end. She is too proud to admit defeat, even to herself, and yet Lawrence has her completely in the palms of his hands (even if he doesn't know what to do with her yet).

WuWei

2009-08-23, 02:24

MeoTwister5

2009-08-23, 03:54

Quick questions for you Spice and Wolf afficionados:

Due to a very, shall we say odd circumstances, i ended up showing a few episodes to friends who don't regularly watch anime and the reaction right off the bat about Horo was the following:

1.) From the Renaissance Italian History buff: "She acts like a Venetian Courtesan! Her verbal sparring is exactly what they used to do!"

2.) From the Elderly Japanese gentleman/Relative of Friend: "Hahaa. She's like a heroine in a chambara Edo-period drama. She fits the mold of one of those "meek tea house girls/dangerous women" who with their Samurai/Merchant lovers helped overthrow the Tokugawa shogunate."

3.) From my Classic Films-otaku friend: "She's got a lovely Audrey Hepburn-esque quality. Go watch the move Roman Holiday with Carey Grant, Horo's got it down to a T."

4.) From a Guy who spent a little too much time/money in some of the shadier places in Ginza/Kabuki-cho: "All the smart Bar Girls i've ever known are like Horo. The know how to make the best conversation, stroke your ego, and drain your wallet dry before you know it, and you get left with nothing but maybe a wink and a smile."

Which kind of led me to the question: Has the writer ever actually stated what inspired Horo's personality?

The character traits of the above mentioned seem pretty much the same, with the same weakness too: Loneliness and Alienation.

1). I'd say it all boils down to her lengthy life experiences. She can easily converse and spar with Lawrence, contrasting Lawrence's experiences from travel and Horo's experiences with the people who have come and gone in her life.

2)+4). One of the other threads mentions that her speaking style resembles the style used by Edo-era or generally 19th-early 20th century courtesans... or perhaps shall we say prostitutes? I believe the author did intend for her to speak like this.

3). Because she is a god after all. She carries an air of nobility and elegance that is punctuated again by her charming wit. Pretty much why everyone in this subforum worships her to an unhealthy degree.:eyespin:

FTGT

2009-08-24, 06:37

...
Which kind of led me to the question: Has the writer ever actually stated what inspired Horo's personality?

Interesting question. As far as I know the inventor of the story and characters of S&W never mentioned officially what actually inspired him to write this diverting tale.

Cipher

2009-08-24, 06:55

Interesting question. As far as I know the inventor of the story and characters of S&W never mentioned officially what actually inspired him to write this diverting tale.

The question of Holo's name's origins should also be asked. "Hoe"-Lo's courtesans' speech malevolently leads me into the dirty corners of my encephalon(brain). Could that be a part of the author's inspiration? Medieval prostitutes?

Vexx

2009-08-24, 12:02

Quick questions for you Spice and Wolf afficionados:

Due to a very, shall we say odd circumstances, i ended up showing a few episodes to friends who don't regularly watch anime and the reaction right off the bat about Horo was the following:

1.) From the Renaissance Italian History buff: "She acts like a Venetian Courtesan! Her verbal sparring is exactly what they used to do!"

2.) From the Elderly Japanese gentleman/Relative of Friend: "Hahaa. She's like a heroine in a chambara Edo-period drama. She fits the mold of one of those "meek tea house girls/dangerous women" who with their Samurai/Merchant lovers helped overthrow the Tokugawa shogunate."

3.) From my Classic Films-otaku friend: "She's got a lovely Audrey Hepburn-esque quality. Go watch the move Roman Holiday with Carey Grant, Horo's got it down to a T."

4.) From a Guy who spent a little too much time/money in some of the shadier places in Ginza/Kabuki-cho: "All the smart Bar Girls i've ever known are like Horo. The know how to make the best conversation, stroke your ego, and drain your wallet dry before you know it, and you get left with nothing but maybe a wink and a smile."

Which kind of led me to the question: Has the writer ever actually stated what inspired Horo's personality?

The character traits of the above mentioned seem pretty much the same, with the same weakness too: Loneliness and Alienation.

You have some very insightful friends :) ALL those characterizations work for me :)

But sorry, I've not come across any interview where the author spoke of his inspirations for the characters (or even the storyline).

Kaguya

2009-08-26, 15:50

Which kind of led me to the question: Has the writer ever actually stated what inspired Horo's personality?

The character traits of the above mentioned seem pretty much the same, with the same weakness too: Loneliness and Alienation.According to the interview to Isuna Hasakura, only Horo's language such as "...arinsu.", and beast ear were specified as her character.
When the writer creates a character, he opts only for rough setting, such as Horo's "beast ear and tail", and Lawrence's "peddler."
First of all, the writer appointed Lawrence as the leading role, and as a result of actually moving a character, Horo was characterized as such personality.
Therefore, a clear personality is not compelled to any characters.
That is, in order to emphasize Lawrence's weakness, Horo is sometimes strong, and in order to emphasize Lawrence's tenderness, Horo is sometimes lonely.

About Horo's language, the writer was charmed by one scene of "SAKURAN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakuran)" which took up the red-light district Yoshiwara in the Edo period, and he adopted the heroine's language.

About Horo's beast ear, the writer was touched off by "The Golden Bough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough)" written by James George Frazer, and he adopted beast ear.

FTGT

2009-08-27, 10:31

Thanks to the all knowing Kaguya! ^^

FTGT

2009-08-31, 07:33

Regarding the possibility of Horo still being "untouched", I found this little comment in the vast areas of the internet:

Hmmm I think Horo may still be a Virgin. Even though she does have a human form she still thinks very much like a wolf and wolves usually don't have sex unless it's to produce off spring and I'm pretty sure Horo isn't a mother, she would have at least said so by now. Also Horo is a goddess of harvest. Which ties in with fertility, which is associated with the Virgin image. Also back then I'm pretty sure they had little to no contraceptives, so if she was having sex, it would be fair to say she would have kids by now. But also because of Horo's own personalty has some thing to do with it. I think Horo is way to proud to be dominated by a man like that.

That sounds pretty plausible to me....

Vexx

2009-08-31, 11:04

BashZeStampeedo

2009-08-31, 15:12

And also a load of bollocks :) I'll eviscerate each assumption it makes later when I have more time. Frankly, I view the whole "is the heroine a virgin or not" to be one of the most immature facets of otaku-dom.

No kidding. The way she behaves I doubt she cares about such things. And the way Lawrence behaves I doubt he cares. For all we know it's the reason Horo's so pissed off at Amarty, but why dwell on it so intently?

I suppose one can argue about whether she can even have children with a human. After all, Horo's seems to have been itching to figure that one out for a while, and even Lawrence seems at least curious. But again, dwelling on something that only the story can answer is at best pointless when there is so much story left to cover.

Komitadji

2009-08-31, 20:38

I've been thinking:
Horo's non-sexualized nudity is a depiction of her divinity.
Before Christianity took over Europe, most of the classical Cultures of Europe and the Mediterranean world depicted divine figures in the nude. Greek and Roman gods were depicted in the nude, 'divine' and 'semi-divine' humans such as 'divine' kings and emperors were depicted in the nude in art and sculpture when their mortal counterparts were clothed.

Horo's nudity is a representation of her divine or semi-divine nature and because of that if anyone accuses fans of Spice & Wolf of being perverts just looking at Horo, we can explain that there are very good symbolic reasons why Horo is frequently depicted in the nude in a non-ecchi way...

FTGT

2009-09-01, 02:04

Vexx

2009-09-01, 12:03

Not yelling at you (sorry if it seemed like that) :) ... but I was pretty put out by the "Nagi incident" and it rubs my fur the wrong way that some idiot somewhere is trying the idea out on ホロ. Here, I'll just address the incorrect assumptions of the writer:

Hmmm I think Horo may still be a Virgin.
Opinion, everyone is welcome to an opinion. But then the rest of it goes downhill.

Even though she does have a human form she still thinks very much like a wolf and wolves usually don't have sex unless it's to produce off spring
False. Wolves have sex to bond and to maintain pack relationships. I've seen a number of ridiculous posts in which writers basically document they have no clue how wolves work.

and I'm pretty sure Horo isn't a mother, she would have at least said so by now
Reasonable assumption but "pretty sure" is unwarranted from a forensics perspective.

. Also Horo is a goddess of harvest. Which ties in with fertility, which is associated with the Virgin image.
What? Now he's just making stuff up. Harvest goddesses and fertility goddesses have *lots* of sex in mythology. I can only assume he's reaching for that dysfunctional stapling on of the "Virgin Mary" to substitute for feminine goddesses that communities forced into Christianity often did. There's no functional connection there.

Also back then I'm pretty sure they had little to no contraceptives, so if she was having sex, it would be fair to say she would have kids by now.
There were contraceptive methods then - (e.g. condoms made from sheep's innards), there was also rhythm method (that part of the month women are infertile). But the failure is this --- ホロ is not human nor is she a regular wolf (which have very easily discerned fertile/infertile periods). She's a demi-goddess or at least a member of a very special species. So the writer's assumptions simply have no traction without more information.

But also because of Horo's own personalty has some thing to do with it. I think Horo is way to proud to be dominated by a man like that.
This fails to even make sense and assumes that sex is an inherently "dominating" activity rather than a mutually desirable affair. ホロ might want someone she trusts and can go eye-to-eye with but claiming she is "too proud to have sex" is just an instant fail assertion. In my view, this probably puts the writer in the category of people who have never been in a relationship that pontificate about relationships.

BashZeStampeedo

2009-09-01, 13:38

But also because of Horo's own personalty has some thing to do with it. I think Horo is way to proud to be dominated by a man like that.
---
This fails to even make sense and assumes that sex is an inherently "dominating" activity rather than a mutually desirable affair.

Moreover, I'm pretty sure that Horo's the type that wouldn't mind being "dominated" once in a while ;)

Also Horo is a goddess of harvest. Which ties in with fertility, which is associated with the Virgin image.
---
What? Now he's just making stuff up.

I get the impression that some people mistake "virility" with "virginity". I wonder how many people have this impression? Shows just how backward our thinking has become, to think that a god(dess) of fertility/verility would be a virgin.

Riful

2009-09-01, 14:54

"Also Horo is a goddess of harvest. Which ties in with fertility, which is associated with the Virgin image."
What? Now he's just making stuff up. Harvest goddesses and fertility goddesses have *lots* of sex in mythology. I can only assume he's reaching for that dysfunctional stapling on of the "Virgin Mary" to substitute for feminine goddesses that communities forced into Christianity often did. There's no functional connection there.

To me that simply sounds like wishful thinking, because an unmarried non-virgin character isn't as likeable as a virgin. Apart from everything you said, Holo also seems to have no problem whatsoever to allure and charm Lawrence or to make ambiguous statements and jokes (remember the poor boy in episode two). She seems quite open about it ^^

BashZeStampeedo

2009-09-01, 15:16

..an unmarried non-virgin character isn't as likeable as a virgin.

I know many, many people who would disagree with that (I'm one of them). Not everyone equates virginity with sexual allure. Still, it's fun to hypothesize why people might think that way, if you aren't one of them.

But if they are going after that demographic, then the choice of a sultry pagan deity with an obvious sex drive may not be the best/most accessible way to denote "virginity".

SpicyKitty

2009-09-02, 19:52

Horo's nakedness really draws attention at first.. at first I was thinking it was a hentai series. LOL!! :D

FTGT

2009-09-03, 13:07

Horo's nakedness really draws attention at first.. at first I was thinking it was a hentai series. LOL!! :D

....that implies that you started with this show just because you were looking for naked Wolf-Girls doing impure things. :p

Matt122005

2009-09-03, 23:06

Yen Press when they first licensed Spice and Wolf, had written Horo as Ho"r"o, with an R.

But now it says Holo on the site.

ACK!

Guys, we must act quickly before the books are finalized and printed for shipment. We must keep Horo's name correct, as HO"R"O! lol

-Matt

PS. ALSO, we need to insist that they not change Nora to Nola.

Horo and Nora are perfect names, and I feel changing them could pottentially hurt sales, considering a good sounding name can be a good step to becoming succesful.

So who's up for an e-mail campaign to help make sure the english licensed novels keep the correct spelling? ^_^

Vexx

2009-09-04, 00:18

Too late.... the japanese production company dictated the names. Someone on the Japan side is infatuated with "lo" versus "ro"....

As much as I'd like it to be "Horo", the publishing company in Japan seems determined to go with "Holo". That's why I just write ホロ anymore.... :P

Besides, it isn't "the correct spelling" ... the correct spelling is ホロ. Any english transcription is only an approximation of the sounds. Advanced Hepburn or whatever you use - "lo" and "ro" neither completely matches the "l/d/r" sound of that character "ロ". Every textbook I have uses "ro" for that sound but older textbooks and some variants are known to use "lo" ... and someone who makes decisions seems to have learned it that way or simply thinks the letter "l" looks cooler than the letter "r".

I suppose its a few points that they are using the German spelling of Lawrence's name "Kraft"

Matt122005

2009-09-04, 00:38

How do you know for sure that the Japanese company is dictating the names and it wasn't an open decision for Yen Press to make? O_o

-Matt

Vexx

2009-09-04, 01:35

Most translated adaptations have to undergo approval by their japanese licensors, especially the names.

By all means, write to Yen and plead the case for "Horo". I've already written a while back and ask that Yen Press research it and push back at their licensors. However, I have a sneaking suspicion the very reason we saw ホロ's signed name (as Holo) a few episodes ago is that the japanese production has heard the pushback from the American fans and basically settled the matter visually in their eyes.

Hey, I even took her name (in the light novels) to a few Japanese instructors I know and they were like, "of course it should be "ro" that's the official romaji for that character". They also intuitively made the connection to the Ainu word for wolf. I'm just sensing some older stubborn guy at the other end of this decision :)

No one has been able to find a European source for the name (unlike Chloe or Lawrence, etc) and so far the author has been silent on the matter.

Either way, if you're pronouncing it properly, "Horo" or "Holo" will sound exactly the same.

edit: Now this is the first I've heard of them writing "Nora" as "Nola" ... if so, that's definitely offbase as there's clearly a European name spelled "Nora". Blergh... another reason to learn Japanese and blow off the translations, eh? :)

I don't see anything on the Yen Press site speaking of Nora (Nola). Got a link?

FlareKnight

2009-09-04, 22:38

I guess the question is if anyone here would be able to read the translated novels with Horo's name being put in as Holo? I just don't get why they were so firm on sticking with Holo. If people have sent in mail then they should know how people feel about that spelling. You'd think they'd want fans of the series to buy the novel. I just find it sad that we have the novels coming out and the most important character's name is done wrong. It may not technically be wrong but it feels wrong.

I'll send a message even though no one there will give a damn.

Anyways back to good Horo discussion. You have to appreciate how much Horo enjoyed that meal in episode 9. There was barely anything left :heh:.

BashZeStampeedo

2009-09-04, 23:27

Anyways back to good Horo discussion. You have to appreciate how much Horo enjoyed that meal in episode 9. There was barely anything left :heh:.

I'm more interested in knowing how she got such a meal out of Lawrence? It clearly can't have been cheap, and I doubt she would have paid for it herself ;) She's more impressive than Fuu from Samurai Champloo..

Matt122005

2009-09-05, 00:37

According to Anime News Network, the official anime in english has renamed Nora as Nola.

So Im worried maybe that Yen Press will do so also. :(

I want Horo and Nora, not l's. :(

-Matt

Riful

2009-09-05, 01:47

How do you know for sure that the Japanese company is dictating the names and it wasn't an open decision for Yen Press to make? O_o

Because that's the spelling they use and have used ever since the anime first premiered in Japan.
And as Vexx said, the foreign companies need the approval of the Japanese company for almost every little detail. And if the Japanese care, they can decide the names' spelling, which ends in things as Satoru being spelt as "Satol" (E'S author), Taito turning into "Tite" (Bleach author), Yuu becoming "You" (You Higuri). These are all authors but of course they can do the same for character name's (f.ex. in Sgt Frog there was a character Kirara, but the Japanese forced Tokyopop to turn it into Kilala).

Seriously, for Holo they even did show her name in the anime itself. So it's pretty clear that the Japanese have decided on this spelling.

I'll quote myself:

The only official place where "Horo" has been ever used is indeed Yen Press' homepage. On the other side Holo has been used everywhere, from the japanese anime homepage (http://www.spicy-wolf.com/assets/images/about/character_holo.jpg), to Kadokawa's English page (http://www.kadokawapicturesusa.com/2008/04/spice_wolf.php), to the Japanese merchandise [ one (http://www.toyslogic.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=3896), two (http://www.animaxis.com/images/products/anime_manga153487_1.jpg), three (http://www.animaxis.com/images/products/anime_manga153418_1.jpg), four (http://blog-imgs-41.fc2.com/b/a/r/bargelato/photo_20090120205540.jpg), and many more] and finally now by Funimation.

Now add the anime itself and Yen Press to that list as well. Also note the Nola cell phone strap.

And Vexx, your explanation is quite right, but one thing is missing imho.

Hey, I even took her name (in the light novels) to a few Japanese instructors I know and they were like, "of course it should be "ro" that's the official romaji for that character".

The problem is, we aren't necessarily talking about a Japanese name, actually the chances that Holo's name is supposed to be Japanese are very slim imho, given the setting of the series. So especially when using Katakana "lo" can be the intended sound (even a D can be intended - see "Purin = Pudding"). As you wouldn't turn Lawrence into Rowrence just because "ロ is usually transliterated as ro". That'd end in quite a mess. I'd go so far as to saying that in theory (i.e. in the Katakana chart) ロ might be ro, but in practice (Katakana-go used in daily life) it can be quite a lot of different things.
And honestly I'm a bit shocked at a Japanese instructor not explaining that in a more detailed way, we had a whole debate about that in class ^^;

They also intuitively made the connection to the Ainu word for wolf.

you're kidding? This I find hard to believe XD few Japanese know Ainu-go, so would this one word be one of the few they all know? (like Kamui maybe, I dunno any other)

Now this is the first I've heard of them writing "Nora" as "Nola" ... if so, that's definitely offbase as there's clearly a European name spelled "Nora". Blergh... another reason to learn Japanese and blow off the translations, eh?

Nora might be more well known, but Nola is also an existing name (http://www.behindthename.com/name/nola). Might be a coincidence and I do prefer Nora myself, but it's there.

I only hope they'll spell Diana as Diana, not that weird english-fied spelling (http://www.behindthename.com/name/deanna) the fansubs are using.

Vexx

2009-09-05, 02:01

Ah, I should clarify -- only one of them knew the Ainu word for wolf. But they all scratched their head at the "lo". One of the others suggested that who ever made the decision might be an older person :)

If we had some European name to go by for Horo/Holo, like we do for Lawrence and Nora (or Nola) - it'd be easier to swallow the "lo" choice. Honestly, I think it boils down to the shape of the letter "l" being more appealing to the decisionmaker. I've beaten this horse to smithereens... so like I keep saying, I just type it ホロ and its pronounced the same way no matter what.

Hell, I'm surprised they aren't spelling it "Lawlence" at this point. Great examples from other series, by the way :)

sorrowsiren

2009-09-10, 03:38

This is a fine place to post this I guess...

I'll finish watching this for the cute chara's but, reality is totally out the window here...

If I was him...

I would have built up way to much resentment at this point, slapped the -s- out of her, yelled and screamed about what a -b- she's been.. Then the cops would have come, and arested me, for abusing the -c-...

And that would have been the end of the storyline...

I like this show, but this kind of BS is just way to unrealistic, these are nothing but otaku arch types at this point...

Sorry, she came out of a 500 year "sleep" for him. Right? She loves him unconditionaly, and then, she totally betrays him at the drop of a hat?

I'm sorry but this is the kind of woman that gets killed by her boyfriend in reality... I'm tired of this tsundere crap..

FTGT

2009-09-10, 15:17

This is a fine place to post this I guess...

I'll finish watching this for the cute chara's but, reality is totally out the window here...
....
Sorry, she came out of a 500 year "sleep" for him. Right? She loves him unconditionaly, and then, she totally betrays him at the drop of a hat?

You refer to the third episode of the second season I guess. Well, the following text could help you to understand Horos behaviour:

A lot of people (also in other forums) seem to be very surprised about Horos mental breakdown and some even say that this is totally out of character. But you have to consider the following:

- Her absolut major fear is to be alone and forgotten! Therefore she is nursing precisely that fear.

- After standing a long time to a contract with a village, she was betrayed by the villagers and had to leave the very place where people swear to worship and not forget her. Therefore she is clinging to the thought of returning to her old hometown in order to be reunited with her family and friends.

- She is not used to the human feelings, since she didnt took the shape of a human girl and havent had a lot of contact to others for several hundred years. Therefore she is sometimes overwhelmed by emotions (she tells this to Lawrence when she burst into tears after the sewer-scene in Season 1).

- Right before she receives the letter from Lawrence, he raises Horos hopes to find her hometown immense by telling her that he got more information about Yoitsus location and expects that the letter holds even more information.

- She is a female (they often tend to overreact). :P

Couple that with the fear that Lawrence, the only one she has opened up to in umpteen years, seem to try to get rid of her, and its pretty clear (at least for me) where her degenaration comes from. Having events turn out to match one's fears can not be very easy to handle, and Horo doesn't have any sort of release valve except her emotions.

And also Horos blabbing about being alone and wanting a child is quite understandable for me, since she knows that Lawrences lifetime is only a blink of an eye for her. So she will be alone again very soon.
What Horo really needs is a friend of her own kind!
Someone she can spend a "goddess lifetime" with. Thats why she wished for a child.

Apart from that: Keep Watching... and maybe you will be surprised! ^^

Ansalem

2009-10-12, 15:59

Vexx

2009-10-14, 00:52

I like her "accent" I guess I would put it. I'm not sure if it reflects a specific dialect (of which there are far too many for my head) or if it's just to make her sound old and foreign.　Calling herself　わっち、ending in かや　じゃの　じゃろう etc. Sounded charming with her voice actress.

We're told that her speech incorporates some elements of the Edo period courtesan speech ("oiran"). It was considered quite flirtatious/sexy. I've also heard that speech from other eras are also included -- perhaps to accentuate her passage of time through many eras.

I can follow that idea... I have speech and writing patterns that mix standards over the last 50 years and from all the people and places I've lived around - so someone who has lived 500+ years might have a very interesting mix of speech habits.

HitagiIsHot

2009-11-11, 02:15

Reading the posts from this thread, lots of people like Horo's character for lots of different reasons. That being said and as others have pointed out, Horo is a great example of a multi-dimensional character. Personally for me, Horo is very likeable because of her quick wit and independent history contrasting with her sometimes playful and childish behavior. Thanks to her multi-faceted character, it's refreshing to watch how she interacts with everyone. She is as unpredictable as they come. You can never really tell what's on her mind, etc. and it's nice to have that mystery/surprise so that you never get bored.

Topspin

2009-11-11, 11:01

I like Horo's character because it's difficult to tell where the god ends and the woman begins. She's impatient, petty and insanely prideful. She is one of the more realistic embodiments of pride I've ever seen. A truly prideful woman, who cannot relent, is tough to make into a character that can be explored without it being too cliched and obnoxious (and at times it does ride that edge in the second season).

I appreciate that the novel's author is willing to take risks with her characterization. She's gone from sympathetic to just pathetic in the second season, and on reflection that takes a lot of guts to write (especially for a story like this that moves at a glacial pace).

Finally, it is a nice touch that Lawrence is the patient one. The most humorous aspect of this story is that it's the *guy* that's holding a sex-starved god-woman back. The icing on the cake is that fact that she's letting him do so, despite having ample opportunities to ditch him for instant gratification (this tale is prime doujin-bait).